Self Target

[iOWN]

I'm a little confused about this;

What happens if I cast Fork/Twincast, and my opponent uses Misdirection to change the target to itself? So is it no longer a legal target as it resolves, or will it just copy itself and put another Fork/Twincast onto the stack? I know that a spell isn't yet a legal target for itself when you announce targets, but not 100% sure on the steps the spell takes during resolution.

[Locutus]

A Spell can never target itself. However, he can use Misdirection to change the target of Fork to the Misdirection, and when the Fork resolves, all targets will beillegal, becauseMisdirection is no longer on the Stack, and Fork will be countered.

[Nightmare]

Getting the scenario confused with the "Infinite Twincasts" FTL.

My scenario is a much, much more complex one than this. Read everyone else's posts.

[cdr]

Twincast
UU, Instant
Copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.


415.6. A spell or ability on the stack is an illegal target for itself.

A spell cannot be made to target itself, even with Misdirection.

BTW, no such thing as "infinite Twincasts" ;)

With two, you can copy one an arbitrary number of times, but you have to stop eventually since changing the target is optional.

[Finn]

Yeah, Fork is one of those weird spells that intuitively makes more sense the way Richard Garfield originally designed it, but which needs to operate the way it does when it comes to stack issues.

[emidln]

I'm a little confused about this;

What happens if I cast Fork/Twincast, and my opponent uses Misdirection to change the target to itself? So is it no longer a legal target as it resolves, or will it just copy itself and put another Fork/Twincast onto the stack? I know that a spell isn't yet a legal target for itself when you announce targets, but not 100% sure on the steps the spell takes during resolution.

I Misdirected Fork from Meditate to Misdirection.

[Cait_Sith]

That makes the Meditate resolve normally.

[iOWN]

I Misdirected Fork from Meditate to Misdirection.

I know, but you had almost chosen Fork as the target and I was trying to figure out how that would work.

Thanks for the answers.

[Watcher487]

A spell cannot be made to target itself, even with Misdirection.

BTW, no such thing as "infinite Twincasts" ;)

With two, you can copy one an arbitrary number of times, but you have to stop eventually since changing the target is optional.

the Stack:

Twincast #2 (targeting Twincast #1)
Twincast #1 (targeting Char)
Char
Bottom of the stack.

if I Remand Char before resolving either Twincasts what happens.

[Locutus]

the controller of Twincast #2 copies Twincast #1, and may change the target of the copy to twincast #1. He can repeat this as many times as he wants, but because changing the target is optional, he will have to let the copy's target the original one, namely Char, at some time, causing the copy to get countered upon resolution, as will Twincast#1 afterwards be. Since the copies aren't played, ther is not much use in doing this, as it won't increase storm count or trigger any effect that comes to my mind.

[cdr]

Well said.

[Cait_Sith]

Forgive me but: The Remand already resolved and has countered the Char. Doesn't that immediately remove the Char from the stack?

[Watcher487]

the controller of Twincast #2 copies Twincast #1, and may change the target of the copy to twincast #1. He can repeat this as many times as he wants, but because changing the target is optional, he will have to let the copy's target the original one, namely Char, at some time, causing the copy to get countered upon resolution, as will Twincast#1 afterwards be. Since the copies aren't played, ther is not much use in doing this, as it won't increase storm count or trigger any effect that comes to my mind.

But Char has been removed from the stack due to the Remand, I know that Twincast #1 will be countered upon resolution but Twincast #2 only has 1 target on the stack (Twincast #1). I have seen this before, I just can't find it either here or on SCG. But from what I remember is this cause a loop that can't be intrupted (unless someone can counter either Twincast).

I'll repeat this again here.

the Stack:

Twincast #2 (targeting Twincast #1)
Twincast #1 (targeting Char)
Char
Bottom of the stack

Now, here's part #2

the Stack:

Remand (targeting Char)
Twincast #2 (targeting Twincast #1)
Twincast #1 (targeting Char)
Char
Bottom of the stack.

From what I have said, the Remand will resolve pulling Char from the stack, leaving.

the Stack:

Twincast #2 (targeting Twincast #1)
Twincast #1 (targeting illegal target (will be countered upon resolution))
Bottom of the stack.

[parallax]

Twincast puts a copy of the targeted spell on the stack (with the same target(s) as the original). Then, you may choose a different target. You are also allowed not to change the target even if the current target is illegal (such as a Char which is no longer on the stack). Thus, eventually, you must choose not to change the target and allow the Twincast to be countered upon resolution.

For the same reason, playing Gilded Light in response to a storm trigger does not force that player to target themself with all the copies.

[Watcher487]

Twincast puts a copy of the targeted spell on the stack (with the same target(s) as the original). Then, you may choose a different target. You are also allowed not to change the target even if the current target is illegal (such as a Char which is no longer on the stack). Thus, eventually, you must choose not to change the target and allow the Twincast to be countered upon resolution.

For the same reason, playing Gilded Light in response to a storm trigger does not force that player to target themself with all the copies.

Ok... I think I'm not getting everything together myself, here. But let me see if I have this straight.

With the last portion of the stack that I had listed:

the Stack:

Twincast #2 (targeting Twincast #1)
Twincast #1 (targeting Char (HASN'T RESOLVED))
Bottom of the stack.

What your telling me, is that even though the Char is no longer on the stack, I can have Twincast #2 target the non-existant Char (Twincast copies upon RESOLUTION not stack) and that will escape the loop.

[Complete_Jank]

Wait, so what you are saying is that you need 3 Twin Casts to draw the game?

Official Ruling of Twincast:
6/1/2005 You're not required to choose new targets for the copy.

So you would need the following?

Twincast #3 Targeting Twincast #2
Twincast #2 Targeting Twincast #1
Twincast #1 Targeting Char
Char
bottom of stack

Then cast Misdirection and a Counterspell

Counterspell Targeting Char
Misdirection Targeting Twincast #1 to Twincast #2
Twincast #3 Targeting Twincast #2
Twincast #2 Targeting Twincast #1
Twincast #1 Targeting Char
Char
bottom of stack

Spells resolve which would leave...

Twincast #3 Targeting Twincast #2
Twincast #2 Targeting Twincast #1
Twincast #1 Targeting Twincast #2
bottom of stack

Twincast #3 can never stop resolving. Much like putting a Polish person in a round room and telling him to piss in the corner.

[Tacosnape]

Okay, look, let's do this from the beginning, once and for all. Here's the stack after the Remand is put on it.

Remand (Targeting Char)
Twincast B (Targeting Twincast A)
Twincast A (Targeting Char)
Char
Bottom of the Stack.

The top Object resolves. Now our stack is this:

Twincast B (Targeting Twincast A)
Twincast A (Targeting the now-missing Char)
Bottom of the Stack.

The top object resolves. Now our stack is this.

Copy of Twincast A (Targeting the now-missing Char by default)
Twincast A (Targeting the now-missing Char.)

The top object resolves. The controller of the Copy of Twincast A has two choices during resolution. He can leave the target as it is (The now-missing Char) or change it to Twincast A. If he chooses Twincast A, the loop repeats. If he chooses not to change the target, the loop ends. This can be repeated a set number of times, say, 50,000, but eventually the loop must end.

And as far as I can tell, Jank's 3-Twincast Misdirection scenario is pretty much correct. If you got two Twincasts targeting each other and a third targeting either one, the third Twincast will always have to select one of the other two Twincasts as a target, and thereby create a loop that can't be ended by either player. (Although in Jank's middle column, Twincast 1 would still be targeting the missing Char until the Misdirection resolved, but I think that's just a typo.)

[Complete_Jank]

(Although in Jank's middle column, Twincast 1 would still be targeting the missing Char until the Misdirection resolved, but I think that's just a typo.)

I noticed it after I had posted it. It was corrected while you were typing.

[parallax]

Sorry to disappoint, but there is another target for your copied Twincast that will end the loop. Let's assume the stack looks like this:

top
Twincast C (targeting Twincast A)
Twincast B (targeting Twincast A)
Twincast A (targeting Twincast B)
bottom

Twincast C resolves. It puts a copy of Twincast A on the stack. Let's call that Twincast D. Twincast D is targeting Twincast B because that's what Twincast A was targeting when it was copied. Now you may choose to change the target. If you choose not to change the target, the loop continues. If you choose to change the target to Twincast A, the loop continues. However, you can choose to target Twincast C, which is still resolving and hasn't left the stack yet. Then, when Twincast C resolves and goes to the graveyard, it is no longer a legal target for Twincast D (the copy), which is countered upon resolution.

I'm sorry, but it simply is not possible to draw the game with any number of Twincasts.


As per the original question: You cannot choose Twincast as the new target of Twincast when the Misdirection resolves as it is an illegal target. You must choose the Misdirection. Just like you can't Misdirect a Swords to Plowshares onto a Black Knight.

[Tacosnape]

However, you can choose to target Twincast C, which is still resolving and hasn't left the stack yet. Then, when Twincast C resolves and goes to the graveyard, it is no longer a legal target for Twincast D (the copy), which is countered upon resolution.


Ahhhh. I knew something didn't seem right about the Twincast scenario in my brain. It's the same logic as to why Misdirection can direct a Counterspell to the Misdirection. Good catch.

[parallax]

We went through this before on the Solidarity thread.

[Complete_Jank]

Sorry to disappoint, but there is another target for your copied Twincast that will end the loop. Let's assume the stack looks like this:

top
Twincast C (targeting Twincast A)
Twincast B (targeting Twincast A)
Twincast A (targeting Twincast B)
bottom

Twincast C resolves. It puts a copy of Twincast A on the stack. Let's call that Twincast D. Twincast D is targeting Twincast B because that's what Twincast A was targeting when it was copied. Now you may choose to change the target. If you choose not to change the target, the loop continues. If you choose to change the target to Twincast A, the loop continues. However, you can choose to target Twincast C, which is still resolving and hasn't left the stack yet. Then, when Twincast C resolves and goes to the graveyard, it is no longer a legal target for Twincast D (the copy), which is countered upon resolution.

I'm sorry, but it simply is not possible to draw the game with any number of Twincasts.


As per the original question: You cannot choose Twincast as the new target of Twincast when the Misdirection resolves as it is an illegal target. You must choose the Misdirection. Just like you can't Misdirect a Swords to Plowshares onto a Black Knight.


While I understand what you are saying. Twincast becomes the copy, not putting a copy on the stack, and even though Twincast #1 or A could choose Twincast #3 or C, but it does not target it, so you would have to choose a new target to target Twincast #3 or C too. When choosing targets, a spell can never target itself, thus you could either let it have the original target, or you could change targets, but you can't target itself.

[dahcmai]

I forked a Sharazad once, that's all I ever want to deal with fork stuff ever again.

[cdr]

While I understand what you are saying. Twincast becomes the copy, not putting a copy on the stack, and even though Twincast #1 or A could choose Twincast #3 or C, but it does not target it, so you would have to choose a new target to target Twincast #3 or C too. When choosing targets, a spell can never target itself, thus you could either let it have the original target, or you could change targets, but you can't target itself.

Wrong again.

Twincast
UU, Instant
Copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.

503.10. To copy a spell means to put a copy of the spell onto the stack; a copy of a spell isn't "played."

[Nightmare]

I am extremely tired of dealing with Akki and Complete_Jank. If the two of you don't cut the crap, I'll be doling out more warnings. Consider this your verbal warning.

[Tacosnape]

There are two important points here. Parallax, correct me if I don't explain this quite right, as you know your stuff a little better than I do.

1. An object doesn't leave the stack until it's completely done resolving. It's the last thing that happens. This means the copy of Twincast C is put on the stack before the original Twincast C leaves it. Despite there being no change of priority anywhere, the original Twincast C is on the stack when the targets are being chosen for the Copy of Twincast C.

2. The Copy of Twincast C isn't the same spell as the Original Twincast C, therefore the Original Twincast C is a legal target for the Copy of Twincast C.

[parallax]

There are two important points here. Parallax, correct me if I don't explain this quite right, as you know your stuff a little better than I do.

1. An object doesn't leave the stack until it's completely done resolving. It's the last thing that happens. This means the copy of Twincast C is put on the stack before the original Twincast C leaves it. Despite there being no change of priority anywhere, the original Twincast C is on the stack when the targets are being chosen for the Copy of Twincast C.

2. The Copy of Twincast C isn't the same spell as the Original Twincast C, therefore the Original Twincast C is a legal target for the Copy of Twincast C.

As long as by "Copy of Twincast C", you mean "Copy created by Twincast C, which is either a copy of Twincast A or B", then that's exactly correct. Twincast C puts a copy of Twincast A or B on the stack while it itself is still on the stack. Twincast C is therefore a legal target for the copy it creates.

[Tacosnape]

As long as by "Copy of Twincast C", you mean "Copy created by Twincast C, which is either a copy of Twincast A or B", then that's exactly correct. Twincast C puts a copy of Twincast A or B on the stack while it itself is still on the stack. Twincast C is therefore a legal target for the copy it creates.

That's what I meant.