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noobagain
02-04-2007, 06:27 PM
From reading the forum I have seen that when you play a sea drake without having enough Islands in play you do not return any to your hand.
Does the same hold true for Dust elemental, which says when it comes into play return 3 creatures to your hand?
Can you please quote me the rules where this is found.
thank you

iOWN
02-04-2007, 07:00 PM
No, because it does not target the creatures. The reason Sea Drake would not return any lands is if both targets are not legal, the ability is countered due to lack of legal targets (since its targets are "two lands"). Dust Elemental would return itself if you didn't have three other creatures in play, since it doesn't need 'targets'.*

I'm not exactly sure what rule the wording falls under, but I know it is specifically worded that way because if it targets it could fizzle, and if they added the phrase 'up to' it would let you return none. It kind of reads "...return three creatures you control to their owner's hand. If you can't, return all creatures you control to their owner's hand instead." Which is probably an outdated wording.

*Edit: To be more clear.

Say you have an Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox in play, and cast Sea Drake. Sea Drake will come into play, when it's CiP trigger will be put on the stack. Since you don't have all legal targets, the ability is countered. Since it is a CiP trigger instead of a replacement trigger (like on Phyrexian Dreadnought) it comes into play and nothing happens.

Dust Element doesn't state that it is targeting anything on the card, so the ability will just try to return all possible choices.

cdr
02-05-2007, 12:13 AM
Sea Drake
2U, Creature - Drake 4/3
Flying
When Sea Drake comes into play, return two target lands you control to their owner's hand.

Dust Elemental
2WW, Creature — Elemental 6/6
Flash (You may play this spell any time you could play an instant.)
Flying, fear
When Dust Elemental comes into play, return three creatures you control to their owner's hand.

410.4. When a triggered ability goes on the stack, the controller of the ability makes any choices that would be required while playing an activated ability, following the same procedure (see rule 409, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities"). If no legal choice can be made (or if a rule or a continuous effect otherwise makes the ability illegal), the ability is simply removed from the stack.

416.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as much as possible.
The difference is that Sea Drake's triggered ability requires targets. Targets are chosen when the ability is put on the stack. Per 410.4, if there are not two legal targets for the ability, the ability is immediately removed from the stack.

In contrast, Dust Elemental's ability (and most similar abilities) requires no targets. What to return is simply chosen as part of the effect when the ability resolves. The effect will do as much as possible per 416.3.

416.3 also applies to Sea Drake's ability - if you have two lands that can be targeted so that the ability can be put on the stack, and then one leaves play or otherwise becomes an illegal target, the other one will still be returned to your hand.

noobagain
02-05-2007, 06:18 PM
Great Thank you very much.