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JeremM
02-04-2007, 09:39 PM
If your opponent plays Ill-Gotten Gains, is there a time period when their hand enters a public area, while yours remains hidden?

Similarly, if there is such a time, is it possible to concede after viewing your opponent's (now public) hand, but before revealing yours?

cdr
02-04-2007, 11:01 PM
This was recently discussed on #mtgjudge. I find these type of questions a little annoying, personally.

The consensus more or less was that you can only conceed during a "real time" - not in the middle of resolving a spell or an effect. So no to your second question.

If you could, though, technically the active player has to discard his hand first. (This is mistaken, see my next post)

Tacosnape
02-05-2007, 01:14 AM
I think I disagree with that ruling on a fundamentally logical level. I've always been under the impression you may concede at -any- time, and when you do, it's over right then and there period. Because of this, and because, as you said, the active player makes their choices first, I would say that you -should- be able to concede after seeing their choices.

parallax
02-05-2007, 02:57 AM
The active player always makes choices first, but both hands would be discarded at the same time. So I don't think there's any time when one player's hand has been discarded and the other's hasn't.

Taurelin
02-05-2007, 05:49 AM
102.3a A player can concede the game at any time. A player who concedes loses the game immediately.

Conceding doesn't use the stack. You simple do it and lose the game. So of course you can decide to concede after seeing your opponent's cards without having to reveal yours.

cdr
02-05-2007, 01:45 PM
I was correct above, but my reasoning was incorrect.

After talking to Lee Sharpe (a Wizards NetRep, and hence an official source):

You can conceed in between sequential, atomic actions. You cannot conceed while a simultaneous action is occuring.

The discards for Ill-Gotten Gains are simultaneous, so no time exists between one player discarding and the other. AP/NAP does not apply since no choices are involved.

For the "returns up to three cards from his or her graveyard to his or her hand" effect of Ill-Gotten Gains, choices are involved so AP/NAP rule applies - the choosing is sequential. The NAP can conceed after the AP makes his choices (before the action happens).

Interestingly, rule 423.2 makes draws sequential. This means you can conceed between drawing multiple cards. (Again, though, no choices are involved so you cannot conceed after your opponent has drawn a card but you have not for an effect that says "All players draw a card.")


103.4. If multiple players would make choices and/or take actions at the same time, the active player (the player whose turn it is) makes any choices required, then the next player in turn order (usually the player seated to the active player's left) makes any choices required followed by the remaining nonactive players in turn order. Then the actions happen simultaneously. This rule is often referred to as the "Active Player, Nonactive Player (APNAP) order" rule.

Nightmare
02-05-2007, 01:52 PM
To elaborate slightly, the recent ruling on this issue was given as a result of the question "In a multiplayer game, can I conceed during the resolution of my own Death Cloud, after sacrificing creatures but before my opponent sees my hand? Does this allow my teammate to keep his full grip of cards(when a player is killed in multiplayer, any effects he controls on the stack are RFG)? "
There was much discussion, which resulted in a verdict of "no." Along the same lines, it was clarified that another example of "You aren't able to conceed" is when you are revealing things. For instance, your opponent Brain Freezes you. You cannot look at the top 3 cards, without your opponent seeing them, and then conceed. If you get to see them, they get to see them, too.

Anusien
02-11-2007, 10:40 PM
To elaborate slightly, the recent ruling on this issue was given as a result of the question "In a multiplayer game, can I conceed during the resolution of my own Death Cloud, after sacrificing creatures but before my opponent sees my hand? Does this allow my teammate to keep his full grip of cards(when a player is killed in multiplayer, any effects he controls on the stack are RFG)? "
There was much discussion, which resulted in a verdict of "no." Along the same lines, it was clarified that another example of "You aren't able to conceed" is when you are revealing things. For instance, your opponent Brain Freezes you. You cannot look at the top 3 cards, without your opponent seeing them, and then conceed. If you get to see them, they get to see them, too.
Further explanation. Let's say you have Dark Confidant in play and are at 1. You don't want your opponent to see it if it's a nonland card. So the theorized action is to look at it and scoop if it's a nonland card.
Why doesn't that work?

Reveal: To reveal an object is to show that object to all players. If a one-shot effect reveals a card, the card is returned to its former state after all players have seen it. If the cost to play a spell or ability includes revealing a card, the card remains revealed from the time the spell or ability is announced until it leaves the stack.
There is no time at which point you see the card and your opponent doesn't. It's revealed: you both see it. It's hidden: neither see it. So you look at the top card of your library and scoop, and you're facing a Looking at Extra Cards.

Lego
02-12-2007, 04:14 PM
But I feel like this isn't the same, because you aren't looking at any zone that no one else can see, you're looking at a zone that you already have exclusive knowledge of (your hand) and then conceding. Isn't that slightly different?

parallax
02-12-2007, 10:12 PM
You can concede either: before either player has discarded their hand, or after both players have discarded their hand. Not when one player has discarded their hand and you have not.

Bane of the Living
03-02-2007, 08:54 PM
Then does it make it illegal for me to pile my cards when my opponent plays Ill gotten, asks if it resolves, then plops their hand in the yard? Im technically breaking rules if I dont dump my hand before packing up for game 2? Can someone really call the judge because you scooped?

Im looking at you lego.

j/k btw

troopatroop
03-02-2007, 09:02 PM
Then does it make it illegal for me to pile my cards when my opponent plays Ill gotten, asks if it resolves, then plops their hand in the yard? Im technically breaking rules if I dont dump my hand before packing up for game 2? Can someone really call the judge because you scooped?

Im looking at you lego.

j/k btw

Enough. He mind tricked your girlfriend, get over it. You can't expect him to shut up about it if you won't.

Bane of the Living
03-02-2007, 09:06 PM
maybe you didnt get that j/k thing. hopefully he will.