[Article] Continued Explorations of Tier 1.5

[Bardo]

Link. (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13710.html)


In this article, Dan surveys 4-color Landstill and the Ill-Gotten Gains-based storm combo deck "IGGy Pop" in Legacy, concluding with an interview with the inventor of Angel Stompy, Patrick Maeder, better known around the Internet as GodzillA.


For my next article, I'd like to run a “Legacy Mail Bag” piece, similar to Jeroen Remie's excellent column. So, if you have any questions about Legacy decks, the format as a whole, its future, etc., drop me a line at bardo49@yahoo.com and I'll gladly answer them or will find someone who can.

[Bryant Cook]

Really good read.

[Pinder]

I agree. I really liked it.

And hopefully after GP Columbus there will be enough results to get MeatHooks into one of these articles. I would definitely peg it in the Tier 1.5

But maybe I'm just biased :tongue:.

[Citrus-God]

Like I said over at the SCG forums; That new deck Zilla made is awesome. 4 Angels, 4 Cataclysms, and a 2nd color. Oh, it's so intense!

Anyways, I love the article. You should talk about the other decks besides Meathooks, like Faerie Stompy as well as your take on WUb Fish. Metagame decks would also be cool to talk about too!

[Firebrothers]

Awesome job, I think it was just what alot of us wanted to read.

[Peter_Rotten]

Anyways, I love the article. You should talk about the other decks besides Meathooks, like Faerie Stompy as well as your take on WUb Fish. Metagame decks would also be cool to talk about too!

I would like to see similar write-ups too, but there are simply too many tier 1.5 decks in Legacy. Slivers, TES, FStompy, RedDeath, Terrageddon, etc. etc. etc.

Great piece. The first Legacy Article I have read in a very long time.

First, I want to call BullSHit on the interview. There is no way Zilla was that polite while addressing anyone. Are you sure he didn't try to stab you or touch you in a bad place?

Second, why wasn't I interviewd about BurningTog? The premier AggroControl Deck of the format? BAH! I hope my V-Day card to you, Bardo, gets lost in the mail.

Third, I'm really pleased to see some weekly attention to the format. The pieces so far seem to be a little more professional or official than other earlier articles. I think that they add a touch of seriousness to our oft overlooked format.

Lastly, I'm excited about that mail-bag article coming up. I'd really like to think of a good question to send in, but I'm level 67 and looking to hit 70 soon. Stupid conflicting hobbies.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Great read.

Keep up the good work.

[Deep6er]

Here's a quick mail in question. Where's all the me? Seriously, all I'm reading is, 'blah, blah, blah, something about decks that aren't Solidarity.' If you could just change some of the 'blah' into 'David Gearhart is awesome', these articles would be a much more enjoyable read. Also, you're a big jerk, now that you've tipped the damn midget, he expects it every time. Jeez, beg much?

And when did freshly orphaned baby blood get so damn expensive? Mmm, with a twist of lemon, delicious. Also, damn expensive. Seriously Zilla, look into that.

[Bryant Cook]

Got ego?

[Bardo]

First off, thanks for the positive feedback. :smile:

I started this article in November and it was the supposed to be the last in a three part overview series for the format. Then I spent a lot of time on the Goblins/Thresh articles with Machinus and then SCG pulled the rug from under us when they said they weren't accepting unsolicited articles. So, after three months, it's good to see the thing up there.


You should talk about the other decks besides Meathooks, like Faerie Stompy as well as your take on WUb Fish.

I covered Faerie Stompy, UWB Fish ("HanniFish") and B/W Confidant in Part 2 (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13511.html).


I would like to see similar write-ups too, but there are simply too many tier 1.5 decks in Legacy. Slivers, TES, FStompy, RedDeath, Terrageddon, etc. etc. etc.

For these articles I was looking at what was T8'ing and covering those decks before I went any deeper. Slivers, TES, Red Death and Terrageddon have not put in any T8s in 50+ player US tournaments that I know of. I figured I'd start with the big and popular stuff and work from there.

Re: Red Death, as I mentioned in the article, I almost covered it in place of AS, but I had just covered B/w in the previous article and wanted something entirely different. And I know they're two totally different decks, but I've wanted to do something about AS for a while now.


First, I want to call BullSHit on the interview. There is no way Zilla was that polite while addressing anyone. Are you sure he didn't try to stab you or touch you in a bad place?

Pat's a total fucking pussy with me. He just talks like a giant mutant dinosaur when he has the anonymous security of the Internet. :)


Second, why wasn't I interviewd about BurningTog? The premier AggroControl Deck of the format? BAH! I hope my V-Day card to you, Bardo, gets lost in the mail.

:laugh:


Lastly, I'm excited about that mail-bag article coming up.

Please send your questions in! I have a fallback article I'm working on in case it goes bust, but I've wanted to write a mail-bag article for a while. 'Should be fun.


Also, you're a big jerk, now that you've tipped the damn midget, he expects it every time.

His mom's in the hospital and his brother just checked into rehab. Cut the guy some slack.

[Deep6er]

Got ego?

Obviously not enough if you don't know that I'm a raving egomaniac. Also, amazing. That one too.

[Anusien]

Here's a quick mail in question. Where's all the me? Seriously, all I'm reading is, 'blah, blah, blah, something about decks that aren't Solidarity.' If you could just change some of the 'blah' into 'David Gearhart is awesome', these articles would be a much more enjoyable read.
You have no one to blame on that one but yourself. You're the fucktard that made a GOOD deck. You'd get much more T1.5 love if your deck sucked and you just whined for "something that isn't Goblins, Threshold or Iggy".

[Lego]

Nice article Bardo! I feel kind of special that I was included (although I'm not sure what's up with the "as a Suggested deck" since I actually placed with it.) I was worried that all my GP tech was getting out, but it looks like Zilla and I are still poised to make a stunning comeback.

[Bardo]

I feel kind of special that I was included (although I'm not sure what's up with the "as a Suggested deck" since I actually placed with it.)

I'm not sure how the whole deck sorting thingy works, but that happened to all of the lists I used in this article and they were all entries in the SCG deck database (maybe not IGGy?). If I had to guess, maybe it's because Craig has to point the deck sort thing to an entry in the database and that it's just easier to have it do the "suggested by" tag. For instance, in the beastly Advanced Search form in the SCG deck database there's a way to filter the "suggested" decks. Meh, I don't know. Nor do I know why I spent long dwelling on this....

In any case, I think the deck sort thing give the lists a sort of pseudo-professional veneer, with its graphs and shit like that, but I really don't like it. I like seeing the lands all in one place and don't like having to mentally organize snow-covered, basics, non-basics and legendary lands as four separate things. Nor do I give two shits if something is a sorcery or instant. (I mean, I do, but when not looking at deck lists.) Or if an artifact is legendary or not, especially, since I take a lot of care to organize the lists in my articles the way I want to see them, only to have them zapped by SCG. Ultimately, I think the deck thing dumbs things down. Ah well.

[Vardaman]

I agree that the SCG way of listing decks is retarded. Plz don't separate out 'Legendary' card types.

[Finn]

Very cool. Entertaining and factual all at once. And the mailbag is also a good idea.

[Watcher487]

Overall good article, it's good to see that someone is willing to put out something that doesn't say anything about the Big 3 and at least it gives insight to other decks in the format.

Love the Mailbag Idea... should be interesting to see what is sent into the bag.

[Lego]

At the very least, if they're going to separate Legendary, put it in the same place! I hate looking at Creatures, then Sorceries, then seeing some Artifacts, and then finally my Isamarus. That doesn't help anyone.

[Bardo]

Love the Mailbag Idea... should be interesting to see what is sent into the bag.

It's going to be as good as the questions I receive; so, if anyone has any, please pass them along to me. PMs, email, posts, whatever. Grazi. :smile:


At the very least, if they're going to separate Legendary, put it in the same place! I hate looking at Creatures, then Sorceries, then seeing some Artifacts, and then finally my Isamarus. That doesn't help anyone.

Exactly. Not only does it add nothing valuable, it also adds unnecessary steps to analyse someone's deck.

[Cavius The Great]

Here's a quick mail in question. Where's all the me? Seriously, all I'm reading is, 'blah, blah, blah, something about decks that aren't Solidarity.' If you could just change some of the 'blah' into 'David Gearhart is awesome', these articles would be a much more enjoyable read. Also, you're a big jerk, now that you've tipped the damn midget, he expects it every time. Jeez, beg much?

And when did freshly orphaned baby blood get so damn expensive? Mmm, with a twist of lemon, delicious. Also, damn expensive. Seriously Zilla, look into that.

Who the hell is David Gearhart?!?

[Finn]

Who the hell is David Gearhart?!?
Love this question. I can't decide if it's funnier if you really mean it or not.

[Eldariel]

A fine read, I like how you actually go way up to the source with the decks. Hopefully that'll provide people with something new in the regard.

[AnwarA101]

Re: Red Death, as I mentioned in the article, I almost covered it in place of AS, but I had just covered B/w in the previous article and wanted something entirely different. And I know they're two totally different decks, but I've wanted to do something about AS for a while now.



This made me smile. I didn't know Red Death was on your radar or anyone's for that matter.

[Lukas Preuss]

Very nice article. I can't wait to see GodZilla's new version of Angel Stompy...

[Bardo]

A fine read, I like how you actually go way up to the source with the decks. Hopefully that'll provide people with something new in the regard.

You would, wouldn't you? :wink:


I didn't know Red Death was on your radar or anyone's for that matter.

Like I said, it's actually hard to find pure aggro decks that aren't really aggro-control in disguise or aggro-combo, like Affinity. My main problem with Red Death for this article is that it shares too many slots with Pikula's deck and I wanted to cover broader ground, since I've already gone over B/w with a lot of detail. A fine deck though.

[Lego]

Very nice article. I can't wait to see GodZilla's new version of Angel Stompy...

Just check out the first place decklist from GP: Columbus. It'll say "Evn Tomeny" right next to it.

[Nightmare]

Just check out the first place decklist from GP: Columbus. It'll say "Evn Tomeny" right next to it.Followed by "Sucks," which is what I encourage everyone to name their deck.

Edit - Insightful Article. Looking forward to Thrusdays now. Or Thursdays. You pick.

[Eldariel]

You would, wouldn't you? :wink:

I just might ^^ But yea, I'm glad that you did it for other decks with clear 'creators' too, I hadn't heard much about the new build of Zilla's yet so it was really interesting to read. Cataclysm certainly looks frighteningly good in the format.

[Cavius The Great]

Just check out the first place decklist from GP: Columbus. It'll say "Evn Tomeny" right next to it.

A little over-confident there, huh big guy?

[Bryant Cook]

A little over-confident there, huh big guy?

Ironic. I like it.

[Citrus-God]

Very nice article. I can't wait to see GodZilla's new version of Angel Stompy...

PM me for the list, but dont let it leak. I also advise you dont show this to anyone who's going to spread the decklist or leak it over the internet. Btw, only Lukaa Pruess can look at the list. So...Screw you all.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Meh, seen it already.

[Zilla]

Meh, seen it already.
I don't think you have. I'm pretty sure I showed you the mono-white list from several weeks back. Mono-white it is not. Maybe I shared the more recent list with you, I'm not sure. It's still in testing and heavy development though.

[Citrus-God]

I don't think you have. I'm pretty sure I showed you the mono-white list from several weeks back. Mono-white it is not. Maybe I shared the more recent list with you, I'm not sure. It's still in testing and heavy development though.

I know Fallen Omnipotent would've done better if he didnt play agaisnt jank like Scepter Chant first round. I dont know what else he played agianst, but he dropped. IMO, if he played against more Goblins and Thresh, we would've dominated.

Also, the whole deck playing around Cataclysm is kinda cool. I was glad I saw something like that.

[Lego]

It's okay guys, keep it up, I'll still win despite everyone knowing my entire decklist.

[Bongo]

Possible topics for your mailbag column:


1. How will the Big 3 Metagame change in the future? Will there be a deck that trumps them all, or will one of the Big 3 become obsolete with the advent of strategically superior decks?
(This is just my personal opinion: I think Thresh will fade, because Loam decks and stuff like Affinity, Goblins, Landstill and Survival aren't very good matchups, at least in my experience. Lately, I don't seem to win a lot with Thresh anymore. The power-level of the deck isn't that high to begin with and can't be raised significantly)


2. Are there any ideas from the current Extended that are worth pursuing in Legacy? There's a lot of innovation going on in that format, which I think would be good to borrow from.
Also, when porting decks from other formats, what are the most important points to consider, Legacy-specific?


3. In a metagame as diverse as the current Legacy, I think Toolbox approaches are the way to go.
An analysis of the viability and applications of various toolbox approaches would be a very interesting topic.
Survival, Burning Wish, Trinket Mage, Gifts Ungiven, Cunning Wish, Enlightened Tutor, Rebels, Academy Rector, you name it - there are dozens of Toolbox engines. This might be worth of a full article.

[Anusien]

Question for next time: "What do you think about Storm Goblins as in Extended?"

[xsockmonkeyx]

It is an aggro deck than is inferior to straight up goblins, and a combo deck that is inferior to solidarity, iggy, TES, etc. It does a lot of things good but nothing well.

[Bardo]

It is an aggro deck than is inferior to straight up goblins, and a combo deck that is inferior to solidarity, iggy, TES, etc. It does a lot of things good but nothing well.

I'm not entirely sure about this.

[Ewokslayer]

Question for next time: "What do you think about Storm Goblins as in Extended?"

Isn't its lack of good finishes in Extended a pretty good measure of its likely success in Legacy?

[Bardo]

Isn't its lack of good finishes in Extended a pretty good measure of its likely success in Legacy?

Yeah, you're right. After reviewing the last 19 Extended T8s from the beginning of this year, I found exactly one (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20991) ETW Goblins list.

Not exactly impressive.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I'm not entirely sure about this.

Well, testing the veracity of that statement might make for a good article, no?

[Mister Agent]

Just check out the first place decklist from GP: Columbus. It'll say "Evn Tomeny" right next to it.

I'll see you there with funkbrew.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, testing the veracity of that statement might make for a good article, no?

A good way to find out might be to write it yourself, instead of assuming people have nothing better to do than spend hours researching and writing your off the cuff statements into articles for your personal entertainment. Just a thought.



Factual Error from the article: Landstill smashed/smashes the every loving fuck out of Threshold. And even when Ports were added it was about 50/50. The deck got hated out because it was an East Coast deck and then people on the East Coast started playing Solidarity, which autowon. I'm not saying that 4cc Landstill isn't necessarily better than the old UW lists, but I think the fact that David Gearhart's amazing deck that's so awesome and he loves to see people mention him, Solidarity, isn't as prevalent on the West Coast (but should be because it's so incredibly awesome) has more to do with 4cc Landstil's success. Deed being less clunky than Wrath is, for one thing, extremely questionable. It's a little bit better in Goblins, but worse against Threshold where the only non-creature target to hit is, ironically, Pithing Needle.

[Zilla]

A good way to find out might be to write it yourself, instead of assuming people have nothing better to do than spend hours researching and writing your off the cuff statements into articles for your personal entertainment. Just a thought.
To be fair, Bardo specifically asked people to suggest ideas for future articles. And SCG is no longer accepting open submissions. Your ignorant, belligerent commentary further supports the widely popular scientific theory that your head is comprised almost entirely of poop.

[xsockmonkeyx]

What Zilla said.

[Bane of the Living]

Yeah, you're right. After reviewing the last 19 Extended T8s from the beginning of this year, I found exactly one (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20991) ETW Goblins list.

Not exactly impressive.

Well adding Ancient Tomb and Goblin Lackey give the deck alot of the punch it was missing in extended. You need the 2 mana land to cast Fecundity and Seething Song a turn faster, and you need lackey in a fuckin goblin deck, seriously.

I think I'll have the balls here to say its the most under radar deck in the format that will eventually evolve into a common monster in legacy. People that play goblins (like me) are starting to get bored with vial goblins. Its power level is immense but people are learning ways to beat it and have started to attack it with pro red dudes or faster decks (Iggy). Once more legacy gob players look into warrens Im sure they'll take a liking to the combo win approach. I mean.. Why does Solidarity do so well? Its control//combo. Storm Goblins is aggro//combo. When solidarity or other combo decks cant combo off they cant win. When goblins cant combo off it just deals 20 with pile driver and friends. Not a bad back up plan.

Ive been putting alot of attention on the deck. You need to recognize the keepable hands and how to play them. Its not as simple as cast Rite of Flame into turn 2 Warchief, you need to determine each accelerations value staying in your hand for storm. You need to recognize a winning hand. Ive had many many more turn 3 kills with this deck than vial goblins. Vial gobs cant get a turn 3 without lackey connecting. Storm gobs can.

Nice article btw. I especially liked all the links to shit like Zvi's article on affinity and the one to archived angel stompy origins.

[Bardo]

A good way to find out might be to write it yourself, instead of assuming people have nothing better to do than spend hours researching and writing your off the cuff statements into articles for your personal entertainment. Just a thought.

Regardless of what Zilla said, I'm not the guy to write about new combo decks anyway. It's like I'm missing a gene when it comes to building combo decks.


Factual Error from the article: Landstill smashed/smashes the every loving fuck out of Threshold. And even when Ports were added it was about 50/50. The deck got hated out because it was an East Coast deck and then people on the East Coast started playing Solidarity, which autowon.

1) 50/50 is not smashing the fuck out of anything. 2) It's never been that tough of a match: Armageddon, Daze, Mongoose, Needle--certainly keep things from getting out of hand.


Deed being less clunky than Wrath is, for one thing, extremely questionable. It's a little bit better in Goblins, but worse against Threshold where the only non-creature target to hit is, ironically, Pithing Needle.

And Stifle. I don't think I said Deed was any less "clunky" than Wrath--1BG is no better than 2WW--I said it was more flexible and powerful.

[MattH]

1) 50/50 is not smashing the fuck out of anything. 2) It's never been that tough of a match: Armageddon, Daze, Mongoose, Needle--certainly keep things from getting out of hand.
I'm pretty sure he meant goblins, not threshold. Hence the reference to Rishadan Port.