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Brushwagg
02-18-2007, 11:18 PM
I've been working and tweaking this deck now for a little over a year now. While I did post a rougher list in N&D a while back, this is pretty much the finished product. Barring something worth including gets printed.

The list: 4th place @ GAGG

Molatov Cocktail:

Lands
2x Tropical Island
4x Savannah
4x Taiga
4x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath

Spells
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Aether Vial

Critters
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Werebear
1x Rofelloes
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Squee
2x Glowrider
2x Meddling Mage
1x Keldon Vandals
2x Eternal Witness
4x Basking Rootwalla
3x Loxodon Hierarch
3x Flametongue Kavu
1x Mystic Enforcer

SB
3x Rule of Law/Arcane Lab
2x Meddling Mage
1x Spore Frog
3x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
1x Goblin Pyromancer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Jotun Grunt

SB from GAAG
3x Arcane Lab
2x Loaming Shaman
2x Meddling Mage
1x Spore Frog
3x Pyroclasm
3x Krosan Grip
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

Card Choices

Mana Base:While it can get hit by Wasteland, everything produces green, except the Plains and Mountain. The Plains is in there because I don't want to be shut off from STP, and the Mountain is there because I don't want to be shut off from Haste. They haven't been an issue at all.

Survival:It is a Survival deck. Although you really don't need to see it to win. I play enough treats that can hold there own with out needing help.

STP:One of the best, if not the best removal ever printed.

Aether Vial:I know some people don't like it in Survival, but I love it. It allows you to cheat mana costs, making it so you can drop more fat, or instant speed blocker if need be.

BOP:Mana fixing and acceleration.

Werebear:I view this guy as acceleration first, 4/4 beater second. Get the nod over eleves because, he becomes a 4/4.

Rofelloes:He just gets dumb with forests. Need I say more?

Anger:Haste.

Squee:You pitch him to get a creature he come home.

Genesis:Card advantage.

Glowrider:Really what I wanted out this slot was something that would slow combo so I could get a clock on the table. Also is very good in the control/aggro control match. Only effects a few cards in my deck.

Meedling Mage:Now I know alot of people are like WTF?? While he is not green, he does fit into White. Included mainly to help in the Combo match, and turns out to be really good in the same matches Glowrider is.

Keldon Vandals:I really like this guy. 4/1 destroys an artifact. Useable with vial, unlike Tinstreet. Also echo turns out to help, since you let him die and return him with Genesis. Sounds janky but Sex Monkey can't do that.

Eternal Witness:Regrowth on a stick.

Basking Rootwalla:I love this card. Can act is Squee 2-5, also can be an Instant speed blocker, change them together if needed. The fact that you get to put a creature into play then go look for one with Survival is awesome.

Loxodon Hierarch:This at first was the main reason I splashed White for in the first place. While I do like Baloth, I feel Pope is just better. You gain the life when it comes into play and you still have a beater on the board. That alone hase won me games. Also Pope has the rarly played mass regen, but it is nice to have if needed.

FTK:4/2that shoots something a creature in the face.

Mystic Enforcer:I really like to have a 6/6 flyer if need be. He fits the curve well, and has won games when the ground was clogged up. Pro-Black helps too.

SB
Rule of Law/Arcane Lab:Couldn't find Rule of Law. But there to stop Combo.

Meddling Mage:These come out for the combo match.

Spore Frog:Frog lock for Goblins, Affinity, random stompy decks.

Needle:To stop stuff. EX:Jitte, Wastland etc...

Goblin Pyromancer:I wish I had these before the GAGG. Tutorable one sided Wrath for Goblins.

Goblin Sharpshooter:Mainly there for TES(Empty the Warrens), and randoms weenie decks.

Jotun Grunt:While I tested this before in MD I didn't like it to much. It maycome in handy in Gro match. Plus it a 4/4 for 2 that fits the colors of my deck.

Basically what I wanted was a Survival deck that didn't scoop it up to combo, and still played the White splash. It can put you on a pretty fast clock since there is alot of 4/4's and possible 3/3's in the deck.

Match-ups

Threshold:It really doesn't matter the splash the deck has a POSITIVE match up. Glowrider is really good. Making them spend 2 on most of there cantrips makes them not so hot. Like wise with the 1 mana, 1 life, and 1 card FOW. And the not so free Daze.

Fish:Another positve match-up. There's too many 4/4's for them to handle. While Mother of Runes can be a pain in the ass, you should be able to over whelm them.

Goblins:I'm going to have to give this to Goblins. They can just go nuts on your face. Goblin Pyromancer should make this match a little better for me.

Tendril Combo:Getting better post board. Game 1 it's all about seeing a Meddling Mage and Glow rider early. Then putting a fast clock on them. Of course this plan goes out the window if they have the turn 1.

Solidarity:I really haven't tested this out too much. But Glowrider and Mage can slow them down so you can get a clock on the table.

Tacosnape
02-19-2007, 01:17 AM
This is very close to a list I ran for quite some time before delving off into Zenigata/Twilight. I like it a lot.

I really think you should look into a maindeck Loaming Shaman, though. His ability to refill your library with Basking Rootwallas is amazing sauce. He'll also take a deck off Threshold (Making your Threshold match even better, also helping against Landstills running Monestary). He eats random things like Chainer's Edict. With a Vial out, he can also do his thing at instant speed, which makes him a much better weapon.

I love Vial, STP, Mage, and Werebear. I wouldn't run without them in the color scheme. Never been as big a fan of Birds of Paradise without Therapy or SOFI to abuse him, but he's probably a necessary evil for the most part.

I also love the Keldon Vandals idea. Do you find yourself wanting more post-board to deal with barrages of Pithing Needles?

Lego
02-19-2007, 02:03 AM
Basking Rootwalla, I like it :) And Keldon Vandal, that's a nice touch. Play another one, they're sexy. And, uh, throw in a couple Tradewind Rider. And call it ATS.

Seriously though, it seems like your matchup against Gobs should be pretty good. Turn 3 Hierarch or FTK seems good. They can even come down on turn 2 with Tinder Wall. Speaking of Tinder Wall, where are they? They block some good, and power out FTKs :) Pyromancer out of the board is hot too. I was playing a similar list a week ago against Goblins post board, he alpha striked me down to like 3, I untapped, returned Squee, played Squee, played Pyromancer, and swung for 14 (along with Tin Street) for the win. I love Pyromancer :) So how does the matchup usually go that it's so bad for you?

hi-val
02-19-2007, 02:13 AM
I have found that STP is actually pretty bad in Survival-style decks for a variety of reasons, including that it doesn't actually accelerate you into the midgame at all and it just 1-for-1s. In a deck with no actual draw, that's bad. They would probably be better as Meddling Mages and Glowriders or perhaps Mangara. I think it's telling that the Extended SOTF decks didn't muck around with STP at all.

Also, that manabase looks really shaky. Four color survival seems best in a metagame where Wasteland is unseen. The reason you lose to Goblins probably has to do with them being able to hamstring you with Wasteland or Port for a turn or two and then ramp Vials into infinity.

Brushwagg
02-19-2007, 11:07 AM
Goblins isn't un winnable, it's a hard match-up. It's in their favor because of the broken hands they can luck into. I've beaten them, but the games are close.

@Mangara:I tested her and found it to be a really crappy Tradewind. Speaking of Tradewind, it's not needed.

@STP:I find it to be the best option. I've been tweaking this deck a little over a year now. It's not going anywhere.

@Mana Base:It's pretty good. I can pretty much cast everything in the deck off the basics. The only I can't cast is Mage. While wasteland is annoying, Aether Vial, BOP, and Bears make it just that, annoying and by no means GG.

@Extras Vandals:I like the one. Pithing Needle isn't really a problem for me. I really don't need Survival or Vial to win. I board Krosan Grips mainly for enchantments(Survival mirror), and problem artifacts.

Vardaman
02-19-2007, 11:30 AM
Congrats on the finish. Any chance you'll write a mini-tournament report and give us some insight into what you played against and how the matchups are?

Finn
02-19-2007, 12:27 PM
I was wondering what happened to this, BW. Interesting direction.

I would estimate that 4 colors is the biggest reason Gobs is trouble. I would also say that the longer you play this deck, the more evident that will become. When you have to consider which colors you need/have access to, it affects the plays you make and your land management. When that is compounded by the opponent making an effort to accentuate it, you are at a distinct disadvantage even when you are not actually color screwed per se. If Gobs is trouble for any other reason in addition to this, I would almost call the matchup a lost cause. This doesn't even consider that you have to keep Birds alive to smooth things out.

About STP, a friend of mine said something really smart about it a while ago that is still true. Any deck with white should have four STP because it doesn't matter how good the deck, it will always be better with the ability to remove a creature for W.

Tacosnape
02-19-2007, 12:51 PM
About STP, a friend of mine said something really smart about it a while ago that is still true. Any deck with white should have four STP because it doesn't matter how good the deck, it will always be better with the ability to remove a creature for W.

This isn't true at all. Angel Stax, for example, can run Swords to Plowshares, but usually doesn't in order to strengthen Chalice of the Void. The 4C Threshold that won GP Lille did so with White and without Swords to Plowshares, preferring instead to draw upon the amazing power of Mage for STP. Gamekeeper Salvagers doesn't run STP because Innocent Blood is better in that deck. The Epic Storm has no reason it couldn't support Swords to Plowshares in it, yet doing so wouldn't really be much of a good idea at all.

Similar generalizations, wrong as they are, are often made about Force of Will, the Fetchlands, and Duress. While these are all amazing cards, it should by no means ever be a hard rule to run 4 of them, or STP, in any deck than can support it.

That said, STP -does- belong in this deck. You can win games on Witness-STP Alone. I won the semi-finals of a tournament playing Survival where I cast Swords to Plowshares seven times and beat my opponent down with a trio of Witnesses and a late Hierarch.

Di
02-19-2007, 01:31 PM
The biggest reason Goblins is a troublesome matchup is because of Goblin Lackey, not because of Wasteland. These decks in general have issues with Lackey because the engine doesn't really kick in until turn 3-4, which by then Lackey's already done enough problems. That said, the deck needs as many answers to a turn 1 Lackey as possible. Yea, you got Rootwalla, but they also pack 4 Mogg Fanatic, 4 Gempalm Incinerator, and some builds run maindeck Pyrokenesis. Granted you can shut off Lackey in the early game, the matchup gets a lot easier.

@ people's comments with 4color manabases:

It really isn't that problematic, at all. He also has Aether Vial, which is an enormous help, but there's still the mana-producing men as well. You guys are overestimating Wasteland against the deck, because it doesn't just wreck you. Two might, but one is really nothing to worry about. I mean, at the GAGG I played 4-color ATS and faced Goblins twice and didn't have a problem with their Wastelands and Ports at all.

I will however say it's a different story against Black disruption decks, of whom pack like 3000 land destruction effects.

Finn
02-19-2007, 01:34 PM
I will give you the Lille example. That was a brilliant piece of metagaming. And Chalice does make a difference, but all these decks give up a lot by not being able to use that card. Something as increasingly common as Glowrider could spell disaster without some sort of spot removal. And it's the best.


...I won the semi-finals of a tournament playing Survival where I cast Swords to Plowshares seven times and beat my opponent down with a trio of Witnesses...
I have had this same experience. It usually comes from aggro-control opponents getting all their Survival defenses early and thinking they are safe. Makes you sweat and then smile. I highly recommend 4 Witnesses in Survival decks for this reason amongst others.

EDIT: Diablos, you certainly got lucky if you didn't have issues. But then I have not seen the deck. Devoting extra slots to Birds, Vials, and such is certainly a good way to fight mana problems, but this is part of what I am saying. You have to alter the deck and then play it safe which takes its toll over time. And Goblins has a lot of tools for this stuff anyway. If they get a defensive hand, and understand the machinations of the deck, they will surely be able to anal rape your colors. It doesn't always happen, but those are games the deck could have won with a safer manabase.

Di
02-19-2007, 01:59 PM
EDIT: Diablos, you certainly got lucky if you didn't have issues. But then I have not seen the deck. Devoting extra slots to Birds, Vials, and such is certainly a good way to fight mana problems, but this is part of what I am saying. You have to alter the deck and then play it safe which takes its toll over time. And Goblins has a lot of tools for this stuff anyway. If they get a defensive hand, and understand the machinations of the deck, they will surely be able to anal rape your colors. It doesn't always happen, but those are games the deck could have won with a safer manabase.

...No, it wasn't luck. I fought through all their removal and disruption with ease, and didn't drop a game in either round. They have 4 Wastelands in their deck. I have roughly.....30 mana sources in the deck, 10 of which are non-basic. If you believe that a single Wasteland is going to ruin my day, then you are wrong. Rishadan Port is a non-issue, because the land they tap during my upkeep can be tapped to activate Survival anyway. I've done more than enough testing with the deck to know what beats it and what doesn't, and a single Wasteland isn't the key. Now, if you have Wasteland paired with a couple Fanatics and Incincerators, that's different. And that's by no means uncommon, so the deck can fall to Goblins easily (For the record, I don't consider Goblins a favorable matchup). Then again, I have Pithing Needles in my sideboard whereas this deck does not, so I can stop the disruption post-board if needbe.

Finn
02-19-2007, 02:07 PM
If you believe that a single Wasteland is going to ruin my day, then you are wrong.
Clearly I wasn't implying this. It's the "Wasteland your Taiga, Fanatic the Birds, Tinkerer kills Vial, attack for 3, your turn" sort of games that they can get. Those are the ones that make you want to scoop.

BW, what would you change if you saw the same field again?

Di
02-19-2007, 04:26 PM
Clearly I wasn't implying this. It's the "Wasteland your Taiga, Fanatic the Birds, Tinkerer kills Vial, attack for 3, your turn" sort of games that they can get. Those are the ones that make you want to scoop.

BW, what would you change if you saw the same field again?

That scenario happens, but then again, this is Goblins we're talking about. They have unfair draws no matter what they do. But even with that above example, it's not impossible to fight through something like that. I mean, if that was say turn 2-3 it'd be ugly, but if that was around turn 4-5 it wouldn't be much of an issue. It really depends how early Goblins get their disruption package online to make it an issue.

Also, to answer your question about changing something (although it's most likely implied to the deck in the thread, but my deck is similiar enough) I am going to advise most Survival players to test a 2nd Rofellos. Throughout the day Rofellos was the number 1 target against every single deck. He only survived for a turn or 2 before it was killed, and after it was killed more often than not I either used Genesis or Eternal Witness to bring it back. His acceleration is just too retarded to let him sit in the grave, but it's a pain in the ass to have to pay 5 to get him back. It'd be a lot easier if you could just tutor up another one and start right back up again for 3 mana cheaper as opposed to working to get it back.

Brushwagg
02-19-2007, 05:20 PM
Well here's what I remember. Damn me for not taking notes.

Round 1:Jesse Hatfield UGR Gro:I do remember game 1 Glowrider was a huge pain for him. I dropped a Meddling Mage naming L.Bolt. Soon after some 4/4's killed him.

Game2:I do remeber too much. I do remeber he Controled Magiced my Thresholded Werebear, he dropped a Werebear and Goose, he had Threshold. I tried to cast Loaming Shaman, he counted I lost.

Game3:Glowrider plus he was stuck on 2 lands. I won.

Round2:Eric? Mono Black Pox.dec.
Game1:Can't remeber much. I know I got survival early and responded to small pox by getting Squee and discarding it. Then beating him down.
Game2:See game 1.

Round3:Jeremy? Affinity.
Game1:Again I can't remeber to much, I do remeber Basking Rootwalla being MVP. Instant speed chump blocking Atog. Looking at my life total I ended the game at 16.

Game2:I got beat down pretty far before seeing Sporefrog lock. Got Rofelloes on line a couple of turns later dropped a couple of Popes to go up to 12. I swing for the W, but he goes before damage sac everything to Atog and fling him at you for........11. OMG I nearly shit.

Round4:Diablos:EATS(EPIC ATS).
Game 1: he was mana screwed. He dropped Tinderwall. Popped the wall to cast bear, and burn 1. I STP bear he scooped.

Game 2:I mulled to six, first one of the day. He's mana screwed again, but I do remember he got Survival before I did and Rofelloes. I know I STPed Roofy. At one point I had Mystic Enforcer,with 6 cards in the yard, a Basking Rootwalla to his Baloth and birds. I swing with Rootwalla, he was at like 2 or 3. He blocks giving my Enforcer Threshold. I force him to keep chumping it. I can't remember much else.

Round 5:Zack:Enchantress: Now some how at this point I'm 2nd in the Tourney, behind Anwar(also 4-0) and I get paired down. I lost both of theses games really badly. I was packing no enchanment hate other the Grip. These 2 games sucked.

Round 6: ID Goblins: To my opponent if you want me to put your name in just PM me and I will.

TOP 8: Oh hell ya. Finally made it. After getting screwed on tie breakers more then once. Made the trip and the work I put into this deck worth it all.

Top8:Anwar101:Red Death.
Game1:He drops Wretch Anurid and starts swinging. I think I got Survival early(not sure) and kept dropping Rootwallas to block it and poke him. Then he drops double Negator. I do remember I had double FTK and double Pope in hand. I FTK a Negator he sacs his lands and some other creature. Then he swings out I block a Negator, and take 11 putting me to 1. His board is empty. I drop double Pope and swing for the W.

Game2: He dropps a turn 1 Hippie. I drop turn 1 Vial. He destorys all my land and hand, some where along the line he makes me discard at least 2 Rootwallas. This game came down to him swinging with Hippie, and me Swinging with 3xRootwallas and Rofelloes. He finally draws a dark blast to take care of my side and I can't draw a 4cc creature with my vial at 4. I did not see one all game. The game ends with him at 1.

Game3:I can't remeber my first play, but I do remember I had STP in hand. He drops first turn Negator. Which is bad I need a White source. He swings hits me. The Negator hit me twice I think, rip the white source off the top to sent it farming. My life was 8 then went to 12 so I must have dropped Pope. Can't remember how this one ended. But his life went down pretty fast.

TOP4:Blue Duals for ME!!!!
Bennett:Goblins/with Black:I can't remeber what I did except die. I think I tried to get going but was to slow.

Game2:I remeber I had 3x Rottwallas and a Spore Frog in play, facing down a Goblin Army. He Pyrokensis my board. I blocked with my face.

Over all I can't complain.

Finn
02-19-2007, 06:06 PM
Game1:Can't remeber much.

Game1:Again I can't remeber to much

I force him to keep chumping it. I can't remember much else.


Game3:I can't remeber my first play

My life was 8 then went to 12 so I must have dropped Pope. Can't remember how this one ended.


Bennett:Goblins/with Black:I can't remeber what I did except die.

Congratulations, you have the memory of a politician. I now have enormous respect for you considering how you have overcome this deficiency to succeed. Wasn't this just s couple of days ago?

Oh well, it is good to read about your successes an apparently tough field.

Brushwagg
02-19-2007, 07:33 PM
Sorry about that. The weekend was totally insane. Getting up at like 7am for the tourney and not getting back to Syracuse till 1am. Then having to drive to Ohio and back on Sunday. Kind of drained.

Back on topic:To answer your question on Goblins, it's not the mana base that is really the issue. It's the explosive starts that Goblins has. The games I tend to lose are, I have a good hand, but the Goblin player has the better hand. As Diablos pointed out 1 Wasteland isn't the problem. Even then I can run the deck on Basics if I have to. It slows you down yes, but I can do it.

Zilla
02-19-2007, 07:39 PM
Goblins isn't un winnable, it's a hard match-up. It's in their favor because of the broken hands they can luck into. I've beaten them, but the games are close.
Have you tried Silent Arbiter in the SB against them? If you can live long enough to recur it with Genesis it's pretty hard to lose.

SpatulaOfTheAges
02-19-2007, 07:54 PM
re: Goblins - When I was testing Survival, I found Mongoose to be a beating against them. Early game he blocks Lackey, no questions asked, and later the ability to tutor into 4 of them is insane as a ground wall.

Lego
02-19-2007, 08:02 PM
Have you tried Silent Arbiter in the SB against them? If you can live long enough to recur it with Genesis it's pretty hard to lose.

Isn't this pretty much the same as running the Spore Frog lock though? I suppose Silent Arbiter works all on his lonesome, but he can still be Incineratered.

That said, have you ever tested an Incinerator in the board? He seems fun because you can instant speed survival him up to kill a Warchief. I've never tested him though.

Tacosnape
02-19-2007, 09:33 PM
As far as goblins goes, Silent Arbiter isn't worth it. Neither is Gempalm Incinerator. Neither, as far as I'm concerned, is Spore Frog, though you could argue the point there.

Arbiter doesn't remove Goblins, meaning they're just going to sit there and build up more goblins until they can kill it with an Incinerator. Granted, it's nice combined with Pyromancer, as you can sweep 3-4 goblins easily with it, but that's a tough combo to rely on in a matchup where your manabase is going to be assailed beyond belief.

Gempalm Incinerator is -nice- against Goblins, but it doesn't quite do enough to warrant the sideboard slot. It's still only going to get rid of one goblin, albeit while cantripping. It's also somewhat useless against all other decks.

Spore Frog dies to Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm, if you can even get the mana for the lock, and is generally useless against Goblins. It's best uses are against other decks.

Goblins will always be a difficult match for nonblack Survival decks, as they can't run Engineered Plague and Birds of Paradise don't carry Jittes well. Your best bet is to stick with Pyromancer and Sharpshooter.

Finn
02-19-2007, 10:07 PM
Spore Frog might be pretty damned good if the Vial is set to one and kept there though.

Di
02-19-2007, 10:09 PM
re: Goblins - When I was testing Survival, I found Mongoose to be a beating against them. Early game he blocks Lackey, no questions asked, and later the ability to tutor into 4 of them is insane as a ground wall.

I tested Mongoose in the 1cc Lackey blocker slot, and it was nice for a while because it's got some decent perks, but later on in the game you have better creatures to hold down the fort like Werebear, FTK, etc, so beyond the first couple turns his buffing was irrelevant. This is why I really like Tinder Wall in this slot because it has such great synergy with the deck. It blocks the early Lackey and can accelerate very well into turn 2-3 FTK, Tradewind, whatever. It also kills Warchief and Piledriver pre-Threshold.

As far as post-board targets go, Silent Arbiter pales in comparison to Goblin Pyromancer. Arbiter gets Incinerated and Krosan Gripped out. Pyromancer is strait up Wrath of God every turn if you like. Shit, game 2 in round 2 against Goblins at the GAGG my opponent walked into a Pyromancer killing 10 guys. It was very nice.

Vardaman
02-19-2007, 11:36 PM
Is there no love for Shard Pheonix vs. Goblins? It costs one more but doesn't have that pesky problem of needing to live until end of turn.

(it can also function as a really bad Squee is your one gets Crypt'd, etc. I'm not saying this happens very often but it's there for you.)

hi-val
02-20-2007, 02:01 AM
Phoenix means that you have to ramp Vial to 5 to make it happen a lot, and Vial at 4 is really where the money is.

I'm just having a hard time being sold on STP; in all my testing, I would draw it and it would sit there or I would wish it were a creature. I think Nimble Mongeese would be a lot better in that slot, but obviously, saying to cut STP is going to draw a lot of fire. All it does is 1-for-1, that's terrible! Think of a deck where a 1-for-1 really hurts them. Goblins is packed full of card advantage, Threshold and Fish aren't going to care about losing one dude because they can draw into more, and against things like Angel Stompy or Truffle Shuffle, their guys are huge enough to just go past STP. I'd rather have FTK, Thornscape Battlemage or even Firestorm. Survival is a slow enough deck that hoping to 1-for-1 and buy time is unrealistic. Hitting Lackey and friends with Firestorm on turn 3 is also a lot better than drawing that STP and wishing it were something else.

I've still yet to hear an answer why STP is good when the Extended decks didn't run it and they had a field full of Kird Apes and Goblin Lackeys and River Boas to deal with.

Goblin Pyromancer is also the best-kept secret in Survival. If you're really bothered by Goblins, maindecking one is perfectly fine, IMO. Just don't be a doofus and play it in the Waylay step and have them untap and kill it somehow. It certainly requires finesse.

And Spore Frog is awful. For 2GG every turn, I'd rather be pulling out Baloths or Blastoderms instead of bad Fog.

scrumdogg
02-20-2007, 09:39 AM
Legacy is a format oriented on creatures & fast (for our format) combo. STP is always W: trade this for my opponents best creature, often at a bad time for said opponent. That is fine by itself, but in any competent SotF build it gets paired with Eternal Witness, who says 'rinse, repeat, get a 2/1 blocker/attacker in the process'. And Genesis, who goes & defenestrates your creature based plan. Really good SotF decks have 4x Eternal Witness to facilitate this & be able to recover from disruption more efficiently. As for Old Extended...fuck Old Extended, it is about as relevant as New Vintage in terms of drawing parallels to Modern Legacy. If you disagree, fine, then DRAW those analogies, explain what you mean & why you feel them to be relevant, otherwise it is all white noise (if not actually misleading as well as irrelevant). Gratz Nat on the Top 4, awesome to see Survival near the top for at least this one tourney. My concerns, as always, are the ever increasing amounts of hate WOTC keeps printing that can hurt SoTf decks. They printed Pithing Needle (the bastards) & Jotun Grunt, then re-printed Tormod's Crypt - not only making it readily accessible but on the radar, and now Extirpate. I don't expect Extirpate to see nearly as much play as Pithing Needle but for it to be even worse for SotF decks in the matchups in which it is played. Of course, a black based SotF deck can also utilize it....and Witness...and Genesis....

EDIT: Vs combo, STP is relevant against some of them, being able to hit Xantid Swarm or Auriok Salvagers or some huge Reanimate/Show&Tell target. Against the rest, it is an easy 4x swap out of the maindeck.

Brushwagg
02-20-2007, 11:25 AM
Well where to start?? How about..

@STP:I've tested alot of other stuff in this slot. Really to much to list. But I've found STP to be the best choice. Sure it's a 1 for 1, but I really don't care about that. I create enough advantage through Witness and Genesis, and my clock is fast enough, that all I really need is to stop a few creatures.

@Nimble Mongoose:Yes Goose is pretty good, but in testing I liked Rootwalla better. The instant speed at which he comes down, and still lets you search out another creature is awesome. I really can't see replacing Basking Rootwalla for Nimble Mongoose.

@Goblins Match:I'm going to start testing Pyromancer. I think it will work out. I probably should have gotten one before the tourny. I might have made top2 if I had.

@Spore Frog:4 mana to lock your opponents creatures down is a little price to pay for the W. Just this past weekend he did is job.

@Scrumdogg:Thankyou. As I think I said before I could give a rats ass about Needle. I do not need Survial to win. As far as Extirpate goes I think it will amount to a Split Second Coffin Purge really. Crypt is still the best hate out there. And not that hard to play around.

Vardaman
02-21-2007, 05:10 PM
Are you still running 1x Jotun Grunt in the side? Why do you like it over Loaming Shaman?

Brushwagg
02-21-2007, 08:30 PM
Well the SB I put up was a change to what I was running. It's still being tested. But Diablos put it well when he said it's a 4/4 for 2. I mean either one could be run. The Gro match is already really good. However if a reanimator deck was in my meta, or to be expected in a bigger tournament, then I would go with the Shaman.

I do want to add something on the whole STP issue people are having. More then a few times in the matches where I know it's the only removal for a deck, or their main form of removal, I do side them out for Meddling Mage. This can really hurt them since I still have FTK and my creatures usally are bigger then theirs.

Di
02-21-2007, 08:32 PM
Jotun Grunt is WAY better than Loaming Shaman. Shaman is more expensive and weaker than Grunt, and Grunt's ability is actually better because it's every turn, not a one-time deal, which could matter against decks like Loam or Reanimator. I really don't know how anyone could justify running Shaman over Grunt.

Brushwagg
02-21-2007, 11:07 PM
Well I'm looking at it as if I have a Vial in play. Then responding to the reanimation spell. But ya I see your point of a 2cc 4/4 > 3cc 3/2.

Vardaman
02-22-2007, 01:48 PM
Jotun Grunt is WAY better than Loaming Shaman. Shaman is more expensive and weaker than Grunt, and Grunt's ability is actually better because it's every turn, not a one-time deal, which could matter against decks like Loam or Reanimator. I really don't know how anyone could justify running Shaman over Grunt.

It's a sideboard slot that's devoted to graveyard hate and it's not even a sure thing.

Which would you rather have vs Thresh and vs the mirror?

CleverPetriDish
02-22-2007, 01:51 PM
Even Stonecloaker would be a better choice against some decks, especially with all the CIP abilities on your creatures.

SpatulaOfTheAges
02-22-2007, 02:17 PM
Have you tried Children of Korlis vs Tendrils-combo?

Di
02-22-2007, 03:49 PM
It's a sideboard slot that's devoted to graveyard hate and it's not even a sure thing.

Which would you rather have vs Thresh and vs the mirror?

First, you have to recognize the fundamental principles of this deck. It is an aggro deck. Therefore, you need to set your priorities strait with slots and not waste time with tricks. Jotun Grunt's ability to nuke graveyards is merely an addition to the fact that it is a 4/4 for 2. With this style deck, the main idea is to be smashing face as quickly as possible, and Grunt does this much better than Shaman. Yeah, Shaman will rid the graveyard entirely for a turn, while Grunt takes a couple turns. But Shaman is a one-time deal, can be stifled for no effect, and will trade with a threshed Mongoose (it isn't unheard of for the Threshold player to reach thresh only a turn or two after Shaman sticks).

Against Threshold I would want Jotun Grunt because of it's ability to be a huge threat on its own and to keep them from threshold over the course of turns, as opposed to a one-shot deal. Loaming Shaman as a 3/2 is hardly a threat at all when it could get chumped by a Meddling Mage.

Against the mirror, Loaming Shaman is terrible. You shuffle those cards back, and then they get them all again next turn. Grunt isn't amazing, but would at least shuffle back Anger, Squee, and Genesis every turn and force the opponent to constantly get them back while providing a 4/4 body to put pressure with.

Goblin Snowman
02-22-2007, 04:05 PM
First, you have to recognize the fundamental principles of this deck. It is an aggro deck. Therefore, you need to set your priorities strait with slots and not waste time with tricks. Jotun Grunt's ability to nuke graveyards is merely an addition to the fact that it is a 4/4 for 2. With this style deck, the main idea is to be smashing face as quickly as possible, and Grunt does this much better than Shaman. Yeah, Shaman will rid the graveyard entirely for a turn, while Grunt takes a couple turns. But Shaman is a one-time deal, can be stifled for no effect, and will trade with a threshed Mongoose (it isn't unheard of for the Threshold player to reach thresh only a turn or two after Shaman sticks).

Against Threshold I would want Jotun Grunt because of it's ability to be a huge threat on its own and to keep them from threshold over the course of turns, as opposed to a one-shot deal. Loaming Shaman as a 3/2 is hardly a threat at all when it could get chumped by a Meddling Mage.

Against the mirror, Loaming Shaman is terrible. You shuffle those cards back, and then they get them all again next turn. Grunt isn't amazing, but would at least shuffle back Anger, Squee, and Genesis every turn and force the opponent to constantly get them back while providing a 4/4 body to put pressure with.

My problems with Jotun Grunt is that he's fairly easy to play around, he does nothing the turn he comes into play and usually takes two upkeeps to remove Thres. In the Mirror, Jotun Grunt is not going to be coming out until a player has a Survival online, or very late into the game. Since the mirror usually is decided by who can get a Survival to stick, he's either forcing you to shuffle your stff into yur deck in a few turns, or they are able to remove it. Squee is not going to ever be shuffled in unless they are forced into tutoring up cards on their turn. Anger and Genesis yes, Squee, no. the only good thing about Grunt is that he's a 4/4, even if he ends up killing himself after a few turns. Loaming Shamen isn't that bad in the mirror, shrinking Werebears, being a 3/2 for 3 that stays around for more than three turns, all that stuff. But I doubt you'd change your mind regardless of what I'd typed, so enh.

Brushwagg
02-22-2007, 04:25 PM
@Grunt vs. Shaman:I know shaman works, Grunt will be tested soon I hope.

@Children:Now that might be some real tech there. I'm going to test that out and get back to you on it.

Looks like I got some cards to test out. I'll try to add stuff later my internet connection is sucking right now.

Vardaman
02-22-2007, 04:41 PM
...
Yeah, Shaman will rid the graveyard entirely for a turn, while Grunt takes a couple turns. But Shaman is a one-time deal, can be stifled for no effect, and will trade with a threshed Mongoose (it isn't unheard of for the Threshold player to reach thresh only a turn or two after Shaman sticks).

Against Threshold I would want Jotun Grunt because of it's ability to be a huge threat on its own and to keep them from threshold over the course of turns, as opposed to a one-shot deal. Loaming Shaman as a 3/2 is hardly a threat at all when it could get chumped by a Meddling Mage.

Then you Genesis/Witness it back and do it afgain.


Against the mirror, Loaming Shaman is terrible. You shuffle those cards back, and then they get them all again next turn. Grunt isn't amazing, but would at least shuffle back Anger, Squee, and Genesis every turn and force the opponent to constantly get them back while providing a 4/4 body to put pressure with.

In that situation, Grunt isn't going to be able to put Anger, Squee and Genesis back every turn because it's going to get smoked by FTK.

Di
02-22-2007, 06:52 PM
In that situation, Grunt isn't going to be able to put Anger, Squee and Genesis back every turn because it's going to get smoked by FTK.

Who's to say the opposing Survival player won't genesis/witness there own back? Or play another one. Eh, this is a worthless argument.

The point is these decks need to do everything to maximize their slots so they don't have any weak cards. If you believe Loaming Shaman is better that's fine, but you're looking at it too narrow. Grunt is graveyard hate plus an efficient beatstick, that's why I choose it. It's the same idea when these decks are running Werebear. Would you run Wall of Roots over Werebear because he can add mana across turns and block early? Or would you choose Werebear who can add mana and then turn into a deadly beatstick.

You have to look at a broader spectrum, that's all.

Brushwagg
02-23-2007, 04:52 PM
I'm going to jump in here. With retuning the SB a little more, I might not run either Grunt or Shaman. If it turns out that I need some sort of graveyard hate, then I'll start testing Grunt. Since I already know Shaman works.

So my SB looks like this:
2x Pithing Needle
2x Meddling Mage
2x Children of Korlis (testing for Tendril combo)
3x Arcane Lab(will become Rule of Law as soon as I can find them)
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
3x Krosan Grip
1x Goblin Pyromancer
1x Spore Frog

It's changed alot. I know my combo and Goblin matches suck, and I'm trying to get the board to address them. I'm hoping to do some testing this weekend.

SpatulaOfTheAges
02-23-2007, 06:03 PM
I think my SB strategy would be a bit more comprehensive. You have a few worries in the match-up, most of which concern tempo; so your main concerns are opposing Lackeys and Vials, and post-board, Pyrokinesis.

I recommend testing additional ways of killing Vial either MD or SB; running Vandal + Orangutan would add consistency you need in that match, as well as help out against random things like X Stompy, Affinity, or Needle. I wouldn't run Tin Street because A) he pumps Incinerator, and B) Vial doesn't matter til turn 4. Which makes 3 mana answers to it just fine.

Caller of the Claw can help against Pyrokinesis, as well as possibly Master Armorer.

More Guys that shoot guys would help also; Fire Imp or Tivadar spring to mind. Tivadar is probably too mana intensive. Anyway.

Brushwagg
02-23-2007, 11:00 PM
You do have a good point in the Affinty match. Another 2-1 in the form Sex Monkey or another Vandals could help out.

As far as Goblins goes, I'm not sure either one would be helpful. I mean yes their Vial needs to be answered in some form or another. The one thing that Needle can do, that either artifact killer can't is hit Wasteland, or other pains (MoM comes to mind). So as I said before I'm going to have to get some testing and see what works and what doesn't.

Keep the feed back coming guys.

parallax
02-25-2007, 03:16 PM
Does Orim's Chant have a place in the maindeck or sideboard of GW-based Survival decks? Combined with Witness, it pretty much completely solves the sorcery-speed storm combo match-ups. It's also another good disruption piece against Solidarity and potentially useful against Goblins (especially combined with Witness again). It's like a superior Spore Frog lock.

Brushwagg
02-25-2007, 10:23 PM
I was running Abeyance in the side for a while, but I really didn't find it to my liking. You have to 1.) Have Abeyance in hand. 2.) Then be able to drop Survival early enough. 3.) Then finally have enough mana to go get Witness and then return Abeyance, if needed. While you might have enough time to do this aganist Tendrils storm. With Solidarity they can just go and respond to it until they deck you then let it resolve.

@My current board: I did some testing tonight with Wastelife playing TES and I like the SB plan I have alot.

For reference:This pretty much how I would board for TES and IGGY
-4 STP
-3 FTK
-1 Mystic Enforcer(Not out for IGGY)

+3 Arcane Lab/Rule of Law
+2 Meddling Mage
+1 Goblin Sharpshooter (ETW)(Not in for IGGY)
+2 Childen of Korlis (Thanks Spat)

It still really doesn't help aganist the turn 1, but oh well. However it does make it so I don't auto scoop either. Children really do nothing for me aganist ETW, but on turn 1 they do Chant Tendrils so it does cut 1 win condtion down(TES). Arcane Lab can be huge. Slows down pretty much all strom decks and if followed with Mage can lock them out. I would have liked to get a few more games in, but from I what I saw I like it alot.

Hopefully sometime soon I'll get to testing the Goblin and Solidarity Match-ups.

Di
02-25-2007, 11:21 PM
I'm unsure on Children of Korlis. It's an absolute beating against the Tendrils-based decks, but it doesn't do anything against Solidarity. For what it's worth, I think it'd probably better to just have sideboard hate that can be used in every combo matchup, considering Solidarity is by far more popular than the other combo decks.

parallax
02-26-2007, 03:41 PM
Orim's Chant does plenty on its own without Witness, though. Against Tendrils combo, it buys you a lot of turns. They have to Duress or Chant you first. Against Solidarity, it would have to be combined with other hate, such as Arcane Lab. It can also be used on your upkeep to shut off Reset.

Brushwagg
02-26-2007, 09:06 PM
I'm unsure on Children of Korlis. It's an absolute beating against the Tendrils-based decks, but it doesn't do anything against Solidarity. For what it's worth, I think it'd probably better to just have sideboard hate that can be used in every combo matchup, considering Solidarity is by far more popular than the other combo decks.

I still bring in 5 cards aganist Solidarity.
-4 STP
-1 FTK/Keldon Vandals

+3 Arcane Lab/Rule of Law
+2 Meddling Mage

I'm liking the Children because they can come down turn 1. Making it hard for Tendrils to win early. I think Tendrils needs more attention since TES is gaining popularity and IGGY can show up at anytime and both can kill you before you play a land. While Solidarity can combo out, about turn 3 or later, giving you time to set up some hate.


Orim's Chant does plenty on its own without Witness, though. Against Tendrils combo, it buys you a lot of turns. They have to Duress or Chant you first. Against Solidarity, it would have to be combined with other hate, such as Arcane Lab. It can also be used on your upkeep to shut off Reset.

If you want to test them go ahead. I've already tested them, and found them to be meh. I think the Lab and Mages are fine. With a Survival I can find 4x Mage pretty quick, and with Vial get them in play with out having to worry about FOW or Remand.

Brushwagg
03-03-2007, 11:18 PM
Yay! Double post.

OK, just got done playing in a 9 man tournament with this deck, and didn't do to hot. I'm still having issues with Goblins. Even with a revamped SB.

For reference here's the SB:
1x Spore Frog
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Pyromancer
3x Pithing Needle
3x Krosan Grip
2x Meddling Mage
3x Arcane Lab (Not needed no Combo)
1x what I put in here was a bad choice

So Game 1 aganist Goblins He's at 4 and I'm at 21. He goes nuts and kills me (damn Kiki and Gang bang). Game 2 I see 3x STP and it's still not enough. I mulled down to 6 and didn't want to go lower, since it is Goblins and I open STP with a White source but didn't draw enough lands to pull it out.

So my main question here is: What to do? In smaller tournies pack tons and tons of hate for those little bastards and if so what?

Brushwagg
08-16-2009, 06:21 PM
Go Go Necro Powers.

Molotov Cocktail Rises: Ver 3.0

// Lands
1 Plains
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
7 Forest

// Creatures
1 Progenitus
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Ranger of Eos

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Natural Order
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
SB: 3 Pyroblast

Wargoos
08-16-2009, 06:29 PM
Since u can't run any disruption to force through your spells, wouldn't be Aether Vial considerable?
Also: how did the Nacatl's performed so far?
I can see them confusing your opp's but are they worth the slots; do you really want to survival for them midgame?

Brushwagg
08-16-2009, 08:04 PM
Since u can't run any disruption to force through your spells, wouldn't be Aether Vial considerable?
Also: how did the Nacatl's performed so far?
I can see them confusing your opp's but are they worth the slots; do you really want to survival for them midgame?

I've considered Vial, but I'm keep Top for now. Top allows to find Survival (if needed) or keep the threats coming. Counters are annoying but I'm not really having the problem with them that everyones thinks I do.

Nacatls are awesome. They pretty much are always a 2/2, and 3/3 alot. I'm also finding that Control decks counter them alot. I Survival for them a good amount and doesn't matter what point of the game it is. They also play good with Ranger of Eos. But if I can Goyf is usally my first choice of beaters but they are a good 2nd choice.