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View Full Version : [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?



Nightmare
02-23-2007, 12:31 PM
I'm curious as to what showings IGG has had recently, when not piloted by Mike Bomholt. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one. Here's how I see the deck:

- You cannot win through your worst matchups (Thresh, Fish) without protection from another color.
- There is some debate as to what color to splash, those being white (Orim's chant) or green (Xantid Swarm).
- Either way, you have a difficult time winning through effects such as Tormod's Crypt and Meddling Mage.
- The answers for those cards are unweildy in any of the colors above.

Now, that being said (and little of it is debateable, although I'm sure many people will debate it anyway), The benefits of going 5 color are here:

- Access to red provides you with the following:

A third Ritual effect in Rite of Flame
Burning Wish, for access to outs and win conditions in game 1. (Effectively 4 more Tutors)
Shattering Spree, an uncounterable out to Chalice
Empty the Warrens, an extremely good card vs. your worst matchups, and a natural foil to Meddling Mage

At the cost of manabase stability. Note that this is really a non-issue, since your manabase moves toward a less resiliant one by including more duals for Chant/Swarm.

Moving toward a TES build rather than IGG-based provides:
- Less reliance on the graveyard. (you can still use it, but it isn't necessary)
- The number 10 is no longer the goal (Tendrils isn't your only win)
- Flexible sideboarding options (the best 5 colors can offer)
- Protection (MD Xantid)

I mean, I don't really understand the argument anymore. The benefits of moving to 5 color, getting rid of the yard dependancy, and gaining EtW seem overwhelming to me. They most certainly outweigh the few costs - No fetches for Brainstorm and Wasteland vulnerability. What am I not seeing?

AnwarA101
02-23-2007, 01:25 PM
Aside from that moderative note, I'm curious as to what showings IGG has had recently, when not piloted by Mike Bomholt. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one.


Very few people play this deck. The couple of times I've played I've made Top16 and narrowly missed Top8. As far as I know that's the best TES did this past weekend. This deck had 2 appearances in Top8 at Worlds one of which was not Mike Bomholt. Nassim Ketita also made Top16 at GP Philly.

lukatron2
02-23-2007, 01:35 PM
[COLOR="Red"]

Aside from that moderative note, I'm curious as to what showings IGG has had recently, when not piloted by Mike Bomholt. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one. Here's how I see the deck:

well, Michael Morgran got 4th place in october at a dfd...and if i'm not mistaken I think iggy took 1st at a recent meandeck tourney...I think that it is a lack of good iggy players...personally a friend of mine took first in a local tourney a couple of weeks ago playing iggy pop, and also I know another dude playing iggy who also took first in a local tourney...if there were just as many good pilots playing iggy pop at a big event as the ammount of goblins, and thresh show up, i'm sure that there would deffinately be more t8 for iggy


[COLOR="Red"]
- You cannot win through your worst matchups (Thresh, Fish) without protection from another color.
- There is some debate as to what color to splash, those being white (Orim's chant) or green (Xantid Swarm).
- Either way, you have a difficult time winning through effects such as Tormod's Crypt and Meddling Mage.
- The answers for those cards are unweildy in any of the colors above.


1- well, the only reason TES does is because of ETW right? well iggy could run that too if wanted but it doesn't...people don't realize iggy is a different deck than TES...TES runs xantid right? whats wrong with protection from another color?
2- your point is?...you can go either way if wanted...its just preference and meta call...(or cost orims vs xantid...)
3- its not too hard...most of the time all you need is one bounce spell or so



[COLOR="Red"]
Moving toward a TES build rather than IGG-based provides:
- Less reliance on the graveyard. (you can still use it, but it isn't necessary)
- The number 10 is no longer the goal (Tendrils isn't your only win)
- Flexible sideboarding options (the best 5 colors can offer)
- Protection (MD Xantid)

1- true, but iggy can always go hurkuls or double tendrills as well
2- if you have iggy, 10 isn't really a problem
3- true, but the only color iggy is missing out on is red...
4- iggy runs maindeck protection as well (xantid,chant,leyline)



[COLOR="Red"]
I mean, I don't really understand the argument anymore. The benefits of moving to 5 color, getting rid of the yard dependancy, and gaining EtW seem overwhelming to me. They most certainly outweigh the few costs - No fetches for Brainstorm and Wasteland vulnerability. What am I not seeing?

I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way...

blarknob
02-23-2007, 01:35 PM
Adding red gives you one card that is very good Empty the Warrens. The rest of what you listed I really think is very debatable.

Burning wish does not give you four more tutors in TES because TES doesn't run mystical or intuition instead it runs burning wish and plunge into darkness. So saying that adding red gives you more tutors is not valid at all.

Burning wish does give you access to cards from your sideboard and RFG zone, that is a valid arguement.

Essentially burning wish is run in the place of intuition. Both cards have different roles. Intuition lets you fetch maindeck cards and also fills your graveyard giving it inherent synergy with IGG and Cabal Ritual, and is also instant speed letting you play it on your opponents turn, but it does cost three mana. Burning wish costs two and lets you fetch non maindeck cards. This is good for fetching answers, but not as good for getting threats. If you fetch IGG with burning wish then you don't have a tutor in your yard to fetch up tendrils/warrens, and you don't have anymore iggs in the yard to continue the loop. If you fetch Diminishing returns with burning wish then you pretty much have to have LED in order to pay the UU in its cost.

Plunge into darkness seems terrible to me, you replace the consistency and efficiency of mytical tutor with a black impulse that costs you life(compounded with city of brass this really does matter).

You brush off the mana base issue wich is the biggest weakness that TES has. It runs an entirely wasteable manabase. Saying that splashing in iggy makes the manabase just as vulnerable is just wrong, you still have 8 fetches and basic lands in the deck even when you add one or two off color duals to support xantid/chant or whatever protection you decide to run.

Yes iggy pop is more reliant on the graveyard, its main path to victory is a recursion combo, but it can and does win without access to its graveyard, simple tutor chains and double tendrils plays are not hard at all when you run 3x tendrils and 12 tutors, you also have easy access(via mystical tutor) to uncounterable maindeck bounce and a whole slew of cards in the sideboard to deal with permanent hate. TES has access to these tools as well, and runs burning wish to have game one access to some of the sideboard options.

I am supprised you brought up the performance issue, I think it is another big strike against TES, considering the only relevant success it has had was at a 50 man tournament without a top 8 in europe.


All in all these two decks are very different storm decks with their own advantages and disadvantages, this is why I made the original post. Its like somebody going to every thread about solidarity saying "just play spring tide its faster and can run sorceries"

Bryant Cook
02-23-2007, 02:14 PM
well, Michael Morgran got 4th place in october at a dfd...and if i'm not mistaken I think iggy took 1st at a recent meandeck tourney...I think that it is a lack of good iggy players...personally a friend of mine took first in a local tourney a couple of weeks ago playing iggy pop, and also I know another dude playing iggy who also took first in a local tourney...if there were just as many good pilots playing iggy pop at a big event as the ammount of goblins, and thresh show up, i'm sure that there would deffinately be more t8 for iggy
Local tournaments don’t mean a thing. I’ve been wrecking the local metagame every time I play, so what. You can’t blame poor results due to bad players, unless you were at every event watching every Ill-Gotten Gains player.

1- well, the only reason TES does is because of ETW right? well iggy could run that too if wanted but it doesn't...people don't realize iggy is a different deck than TES...TES runs xantid right? whats wrong with protection from another color?
2- your point is?...you can go either way if wanted...its just preference and meta call...(or cost orims vs xantid...)
3- its not too hard...most of the time all you need is one bounce spell or so

Adding red gives you one card that is very good Empty the Warrens. The rest of what you listed I really think is very debatable.
Wrong, ETW is an advantage. The main reasons to run red are Rite of Flame (way better than Cabal Ritual) and Burning Wish. You just used Xantid as a difference between the two decks in one of the next quotes, then just used Xantid in Iggy’s defense. Choose one. Orim’s Chant makes you even slower, I don’t understand how you could want to slow down a deck that is already a consistent turn 4 win to a 5/6.

I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way... Turn 5/6? Why are you playing Iggy Pop winning turns 5/6 ? TES is actually turn 2-3 consistent. That’s the reason to run TES over Iggy/Solidarity.

1- true, but iggy can always go hurkuls or double tendrills as well
2- if you have iggy, 10 isn't really a problem
3- true, but the only color iggy is missing out on is red...
4- iggy runs maindeck protection as well (xantid,chant,leyline)
1.) That takes time, you don’t want to give Threshold time to find more mages and/or stifle.
2.) True, however, ETW allows you to be faster and not need the magic number 6 for mana.
3.) So why not go 5 color?
4.) Leyline is not protection, for the life of me I will argue this until the day I die.


Burning wish does not give you four more tutors in TES because TES doesn't run mystical or intuition instead it runs burning wish and plunge into darkness. So saying that adding red gives you more tutors is not valid at all. True, we have the same amount of tutors but TES’s tutors are stronger.


Burning wish does give you access to cards from your sideboard and RFG zone, that is a valid arguement. Agreed.


Essentially burning wish is run in the place of intuition. Both cards have different roles. Intuition lets you fetch maindeck cards and also fills your graveyard giving it inherent synergy with IGG and Cabal Ritual, and is also instant speed letting you play it on your opponents turn, but it does cost three mana. Burning wish costs two and lets you fetch non maindeck cards. This is good for fetching answers, but not as good for getting threats. If you fetch IGG with burning wish then you don't have a tutor in your yard to fetch up tendrils/warrens, and you don't have anymore iggs in the yard to continue the loop. If you fetch Diminishing returns with burning wish then you pretty much have to have LED in order to pay the UU in its cost. Understandable on Burning Wish Vs Intuition on roles. Burning Wish fetches Ill-Gotten Gains a lot, just because you fetch Igg doesn’t mean you haven’t discarded/played a different tutor effect (Wish, IT, Plunge). TES doesn’t want or need a loop, you need one Ill-Gotten Gains to win the game, not two. One Igg will raise the storm high enough to win. You don’t have to have LED to cast Diminishing Returns, the mana base in TES is 5c for a reason, not to mention Lotus Petals.


Plunge into darkness seems terrible to me, you replace the consistency and efficiency of mytical tutor with a black impulse that costs you life(compounded with city of brass this really does matter). It’s fairly obvious you never gave the card a chance, first off it gives you the card now. TES is rather redundant with cards and what they do so finding what you need is rather easy. Plunge into Darkness doesn’t lose to predict, it also doesn’t lose to waiting a turn. Life doesn’t matter when you are winning.


You brush off the mana base issue wich is the biggest weakness that TES has. It runs an entirely wasteable manabase. Saying that splashing in iggy makes the manabase just as vulnerable is just wrong, you still have 8 fetches and basic lands in the deck even when you add one or two off color duals to support xantid/chant or whatever protection you decide to run. TES’s mana base being vulnerable is rather irrelevant when you play 8 artifact mana spells to get you going, also when keeping a hand weak to wasteland (hardly ever happens) hold the land it’s simple.


Yes iggy pop is more reliant on the graveyard, its main path to victory is a recursion combo, but it can and does win without access to its graveyard, simple tutor chains and double tendrils plays are not hard at all when you run 3x tendrils and 12 tutors, you also have easy access(via mystical tutor) to uncounterable maindeck bounce and a whole slew of cards in the sideboard to deal with permanent hate. TES has access to these tools as well, and runs burning wish to have game one access to some of the sideboard options. Being reliant on the graveyard makes you weak and vulnerable, even more than playing non-basics. As I’ve said before finding your 3cc card to get around Meddling Mage takes time in which they’ll find another Meddling Mage and/or stifle.


I am supprised you brought up the performance issue, I think it is another big strike against TES, considering the only relevant success it has had was at a 50 man tournament without a top 8 in europe. TES is still a fairly new deck and hasn’t had many opportunities to put up results.

Nightmare
02-23-2007, 02:25 PM
Lukatron, I'll do my best to discuss your post, but in the future I plan to ignore them if you can't do us all the common decency of using the shift key and a bit of grammar.


well, Michael Morgran got 4th place in october at a dfd...and if i'm not mistaken I think iggy took 1st at a recent meandeck tourney...I think that it is a lack of good iggy players...personally a friend of mine took first in a local tourney a couple of weeks ago playing iggy pop, and also I know another dude playing iggy who also took first in a local tourney...if there were just as many good pilots playing iggy pop at a big event as the ammount of goblins, and thresh show up, i'm sure that there would deffinately be more t8 for iggyThe first place finish at the Meandeck Open was Bomholt. This is specifically why I asked the question. It wasn't a knock to the deck, I haven't seen many results and wanted to know if a lot of people are still playing it. There's no reason to attack the question, I'm looking for data.


1- well, the only reason TES does is because of ETW right? well iggy could run that too if wanted but it doesn't...people don't realize iggy is a different deck than TES...TES runs xantid right? whats wrong with protection from another color?
2- your point is?...you can go either way if wanted...its just preference and meta call...(or cost orims vs xantid...)
3- its not too hard...most of the time all you need is one bounce spell or soAgain, no argument necessary here, these are observations, not detriments to the deck. There is no perfect deck out there, so I'm not entirely sure why you take so much offense.



1- true, but iggy can always go hurkuls or double tendrills as well
2- if you have iggy, 10 isn't really a problem
3- true, but the only color iggy is missing out on is red...
4- iggy runs maindeck protection as well (xantid,chant,leyline)
- Hurkyl's is much less of a strategy when you don't have Chrome Mox as an additional string of spells. Often that plan must come online to circumvent Meddling Mage or other threats, and it's a difficult plan to win with. The Double Tendrils plan takes a lot to set up, although it is more effective than Hurkyls.
- What happens when you don't have access to your graveyard?
- If you're already in 4 colors, again, the benefits of moving all the way into 5 are much more than the potential detriments.
- Leyline is not protection. Leyline does not stop Force of Will, or Stifle, or Meddling Mage. Leyline is great when your opponent already doesn't have Force, or when you can bait the Force, but either way it's win-more. the other two are relevant, but there's still no concensus about what to run.


I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way...Here it is. Quote me if you want. TES is strictly superior to IGGy Pop. I see no reason to play IGGy over TES in any metagame. I'm looking for a solid reason why that statement is incorrect.



Burning wish does not give you four more tutors in TES because TES doesn't run mystical or intuition instead it runs burning wish and plunge into darkness. So saying that adding red gives you more tutors is not valid at all.

Essentially burning wish is run in the place of intuition. Both cards have different roles. Intuition lets you fetch maindeck cards and also fills your graveyard giving it inherent synergy with IGG and Cabal Ritual, and is also instant speed letting you play it on your opponents turn, but it does cost three mana. Burning wish costs two and lets you fetch non maindeck cards. This is good for fetching answers, but not as good for getting threats. If you fetch IGG with burning wish then you don't have a tutor in your yard to fetch up tendrils/warrens, and you don't have anymore iggs in the yard to continue the loop. If you fetch Diminishing returns with burning wish then you pretty much have to have LED in order to pay the UU in its cost.
If you want to parallel tutors, I would not consider Mystical in that parallel, because it cannot (on it's own) put a card in your hand. While it is excellent as an endstep play or during your upkeep, it costs you a draw step to utilize it, something that none of TES's tutors do. As a comparison to Intuition, both Int. and BWish have drawbacks, although they are slight, but Burning Wish's flexibility wins out in my opinion. Note that any spell you would want to tutor for in the MD can be wished for in the board, with the exception of a mana source, although with 4 additional ritual effects and 4 Chrome Moxen, this is a relatively weak play anyway. You'll never need to go through the IGG loop more than once, as your gameplan doesn't revolve around the IGG loop to begin with. While the BWish->IGG play leaves you without a tutor in the yard, very rarely has that scenario come up. Additionally, if you can go Bwish->IGG, you can go BWish->EtW, which is a stronger play vs. your worst matchups anyway, and to have 6 mana means you've already played at least 1-2 ritual effects for storm. As for DReturns, every one of your lands save 1 produces U, as do Lotus Petal and potentially Chrome Mox. UU is very rarely a problem.


Plunge into darkness seems terrible to me, you replace the consistency and efficiency of mytical tutor with a black impulse that costs you life(compounded with city of brass this really does matter).Plunge into Drakness is an incredibly versatile spell. It actually entwines or uses the other ability occasionally, to help alleviate that life loss you refer to. There have been many times where I EtW for 6 or so, get in a few swings, and sac+Impulse with damage on the stack. It also puts a card in your hand, without costing a draw spell/step.


You brush off the mana base issue wich is the biggest weakness that TES has. It runs an entirely wasteable manabase. Saying that splashing in iggy makes the manabase just as vulnerable is just wrong, you still have 8 fetches and basic lands in the deck even when you add one or two off color duals to support xantid/chant or whatever protection you decide to run.I didn't brush it off, I freely admit that the deck is vulnerable to Wasteland. What I deny is the relevance of that in today's metagame. If goblins (the only relevant deck that runs wasteland) wastes my land, its tempo they don't utilize dropping dudes on my head. They also don't play Daze or Force, which allows me more comfort in winning without land (something I'm sure you realize this deck and IGG can do). Beyond that, I didn't say IGG has the same vulnerablity to waste, I said it has more than the 2c build did, since it opened its manabase up to a 3rd color.


Yes iggy pop is more reliant on the graveyard, its main path to victory is a recursion combo, but it can and does win without access to its graveyard, simple tutor chains and double tendrils plays are not hard at all when you run 3x tendrils and 12 tutors, you also have easy access(via mystical tutor) to uncounterable maindeck bounce and a whole slew of cards in the sideboard to deal with permanent hate. TES has access to these tools as well, and runs burning wish to have game one access to some of the sideboard options.That whole paragraph can be translated to "Although it is a difficult thing to do, IGG can win through graveyard hate. TES does it better, though." I'm not being arrogant, that's really what you said. Your MD bounce spell costs 1UU to use, when you need 6+ mana just to get your combo online to beginwith. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's much easier just to pay RR to Spree it, or win around it with EtW.


All in all these two decks are very different storm decks with their own advantages and disadvantages, this is why I made the original post. Its like somebody going to every thread about solidarity saying "just play spring tide its faster and can run sorceries"I addressed this issue above. Spring Tide is a fundamentally inferior strategy to Solidarity - very significant detriments to the deck are traded for marginal benefits. In my eyes, IGGy Pop is the Spring Tide, not TES. You've garnered yourself a more stable manabase, in exchange for vulnerability to counterspells and grave hate, sacrificing EtW, and being about a turn slower on average.

blarknob
02-23-2007, 02:52 PM
That whole paragraph can be translated to "Although it is a difficult thing to do, IGG can win through graveyard hate. TES does it better, though." I'm not being arrogant, that's really what you said. Your MD bounce spell costs 1UU to use, when you need 6+ mana just to get your combo online to beginwith. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's much easier just to pay RR to Spree it, or win around it with EtW.

Actually thats not what I said, if you read my post again you will see that I said its a "not hard at all" thing to do not a "difficult thing to do"

Nightmare
02-23-2007, 03:09 PM
Actually thats not what I said, if you read my post again you will see that I said its a "not hard at all" thing to do not a "difficult thing to do"Fine. It isn't difficult. It isn't fast, either. Every turn it takes you to set up your win properly - either with Double Tendrils or Wipe - which means you 1) Draw into two of a 3 of, 2) Mystical for Tendrils taking at least 2 turns to do so, or 3) Mystical for Wipe Away taking at least 2 turns to do so; gives your opponent more time to find ways to beat you/stop you. Let me give you an example:

Turn 1, your opponent goes Tormod's Crypt, Polluted Delta, go. (I realize that pre-board, this is unlikely at best. My point is, this is a significant problem for IGG). You now have to deal with that before you go off. Your options are: Turn 1, land, go, Mystical for Wipe on end step, turn 2 Petal Land Wipe attempt to win. Turn 1 land Go, EOT Mystical for Tendrils, attempt to win through Crypt before opponent can solidify his disruption base.

Neither of these options leave you much wiggle room. They also fold to Force on an accelleration piece. The deck has a hard enough time winning turn 1-2 without disruption, it can't get easier when you throw a 1UU spell in the mix.

Turn 1, your opponent goes Tundra, Mother of Runes. Turn 2, Meddling Mage on Ill-Gotten Gains. You now have the same 2 outs as before, being Wipe Away or double Tendrils. If you Mystical, Mom activates during your upkeep to buy a turn, possibly enough for a second Mage or a cantrip into Stifle/Force. You still need at least 2 land drops to cast Wipe, unless you want to Petal it out, which wastes Storm and a card in hand, plus opens you up to counterspell disruption.

Your entire protection scheme revolves around your ability to draw a 1-of, and/or a double tendrils plan. Both of those are sketchy at best, and extremely tough to do under a clock (say, Jotun Grunt).

Now ask, What does TES do in those situations?

Example 1, they laugh at Crypt and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)
Example 2, they laugh at Mage and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)

lukatron2
02-23-2007, 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukatron2
I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way...

Turn 5/6? Why are you playing Iggy Pop winning turns 5/6 ? TES is actually turn 2-3 consistent. That’s the reason to run TES over Iggy/Solidarity.

Come on now...That is a totally bias statement to claim that Iggy goes off turn 5/6 consistently...try 2-4...Also solidarity can consistently go off on turn 4-5...

Kronicler
02-23-2007, 03:51 PM
Are you trying to say that TES isn't a turn faster that IGGy? C'mon man. IGGy is 3-4. TES is 2-3. If you are about to say that IGGy is 2-4 then I would say TES is 1-3, because I'd wager that TES goes off on turn 1 just as often as IGGy goes off on turn 2.

Kronicler

lukatron2
02-23-2007, 04:49 PM
Are you trying to say that TES isn't a turn faster that IGGy? C'mon man. IGGy is 3-4. TES is 2-3. If you are about to say that IGGy is 2-4 then I would say TES is 1-3, because I'd wager that TES goes off on turn 1 just as often as IGGy goes off on turn 2.

Kronicler

Well, if you actually read the post, you might be able to tell that the main thing I was was that Iggy is not a turn 5-6 deck but rather a turn 2-4.

Bane of the Living
02-23-2007, 05:22 PM
Iggy Pop is much more reliant in a field full of black disruption decks. I know most of the arguement is focused on Meddling Mage and Crypt, those are strong cards against Iggy, we know that. The fact that theyre weak weapons against TES is true but it doesnt completly steal the show for me. Cards like Duress and Hymn hurt TES alot more than Iggy. Ive seen TES blow down to 3-4 cards an struggle a pathetic EtW alot now. Iggy can just Mystical Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains and win.

Ill also argue the matter of consistancy a great deal. TES can combo off a storm of 6-8 gobs and try to put lethal on you turn 4 or so, or it can be luckey and get the storm of 10 and tendrils you. I rarely ever struggle to get storm of 10 with IGGy. Once you hit the loop you win.

Anarky87
02-23-2007, 06:10 PM
TES can combo off a storm of 6-8 gobs and try to put lethal on you turn 4 or so, or it can be luckey and get the storm of 10 and tendrils you.

I've been watching people play TES and have played it myself, and I don't think I've ever ONLY put 6-8 Goblins in play. It's usually been 10-12 gobs, lethal on turn 3, or just Tendrils. Sure, disruption does hurt, but that's true of all decks. Iggy is no exception.


Once you hit the loop you win.

Ya know, because nobody plays blue or any kind of control in this format. If this were actually true, I would drop all other decks and just play Iggy. It's such a shame that's not the case.

Bryant Cook
02-23-2007, 10:21 PM
Iggy Pop is much more reliant in a field full of black disruption decks. I know most of the arguement is focused on Meddling Mage and Crypt, those are strong cards against Iggy, we know that. The fact that theyre weak weapons against TES is true but it doesnt completly steal the show for me. Cards like Duress and Hymn hurt TES alot more than Iggy. Ive seen TES blow down to 3-4 cards an struggle a pathetic EtW alot now. Iggy can just Mystical Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains and win.

Ill also argue the matter of consistancy a great deal. TES can combo off a storm of 6-8 gobs and try to put lethal on you turn 4 or so, or it can be luckey and get the storm of 10 and tendrils you. I rarely ever struggle to get storm of 10 with IGGy. Once you hit the loop you win.

I think you highly underestimate TES, especially when it comes to winning with Tendrils. I win with Tendrils more than ETW by far. Your statement is false about the hate cards, if anything TES may be stronger due to having more artifact mana to play and Tutor-> Diminishing Returns.

kirdape3
02-23-2007, 10:46 PM
Right now (as in, TES still hasn't done much yet whereas Ill-Gotten Gains has several high-quality finishes in a variety of places (including a single T16 at a Grand Prix and a handful of strong finishes elsewhere)), Ill-Gotten Gains has to be the favorite.

In what testing I've done with or against the deck, Ill-Gotten Gains is pretty damn able to get out of most situations. I've Maged it, I've Crypted it, I've certainly had it empty handed on turn 3 - but unless you follow that up with a serious clock then you'd better hold onto your seats. You don't absolutely have to win every game on turn 3 with either deck - and both decks are pretty capable of playing as fast as the situation requires.

But until TES puts up serious results, I probably would take it under less metagame consideration than I would Ill-Gotten Gains.

thebadmagicplayer
02-23-2007, 11:12 PM
Okay people, I'm just going to get to it so forgive me if i misspell something or forget to capitolize a word, I just want to say this:



Here it is. Quote me if you want. TES is strictly superior to IGGy Pop. I see no reason to play IGGy over TES in any metagame. I'm looking for a solid reason why that statement is incorrect.

Allright I quoted you. and i tend to disagree because personally, I think they are damned close to even. TES wins on turns 1-3 when IGGY-POP wins 2-4. we all can pretty much agree on this. Another point we can all (Probably) agree on is that IGGY-POP has a better match vs. decks with insane amounts of disruption like B/w confidant. IGGY-POP also has (correct me if i'm wrong) more room for meta cards like leyline and chant.


If you want to parallel tutors, I would not consider Mystical in that parallel, because it cannot (on it's own) put a card in your hand. While it is excellent as an endstep play or during your upkeep, it costs you a draw step to utilize it, something that none of TES's tutors do. As a comparison to Intuition, both Int. and BWish have drawbacks, although they are slight, but Burning Wish's flexibility wins out in my opinion. Note that any spell you would want to tutor for in the MD can be wished for in the board, with the exception of a mana source, although with 4 additional ritual effects and 4 Chrome Moxen, this is a relatively weak play anyway. You'll never need to go through the IGG loop more than once, as your gameplan doesn't revolve around the IGG loop to begin with. While the BWish->IGG play leaves you without a tutor in the yard, very rarely has that scenario come up. Additionally, if you can go Bwish->IGG, you can go BWish->EtW, which is a stronger play vs. your worst matchups anyway, and to have 6 mana means you've already played at least 1-2 ritual effects for storm. As for DReturns, every one of your lands save 1 produces U, as do Lotus Petal and potentially Chrome Mox. UU is very rarely a problem.

When comparing tutors please try to keep in mind that they have different roles in each deck. For instance, Burning Wish in IGGY-POP is probably going to weaken the mana base, and waste SB space where you could have run instant speed bounce and extra protection like Defense Grid.
Similarily Intuition in TES would make it rely on the yard more and it would be a bad version of IGGY-POP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
Once you hit the loop you win.

Ya know, because nobody plays blue or any kind of control in this format. If this were actually true, I would drop all other decks and just play Iggy. It's such a shame that's not the case.

True. but the same goes for TES. Example: Fow Xantid Swarm, then Daze/Counterspell a tutor or chant in responce to sacing LEDs


Example 1, they laugh at Crypt and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)
Example 2, they laugh at Mage and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)

Reading the the examples you posted ( I didn't copy them due to length) your right. IGGYPOP loses to yard hate in the worst way. But TES loses to discard in the bad way as well. My meta is full of thresh(which if i'm not mistaken, is bad for both decks) and B/w confidant(worse for you). So what I'm saying is that the decks both have their weakneses: IGGY is a turn slower and loses to crypt more, but is more adaptable to your meta. TES is faster, but loses to the likes of B/w confidant, cards like Abeyance in response to D.returns, and isn't as adaptable to the meta.

Also, (somebody please test this for me) when two equally skilled players play IGGY-POP(U/B/w) vs. TES i belive it's a 50/50 match.


It's one thing if you make mistakes, but it's a whole different game when you actively say in the post you're going to correct it and then don't. - Di

Di
02-23-2007, 11:21 PM
Iggy Pop is much more reliant in a field full of black disruption decks. I know most of the arguement is focused on Meddling Mage and Crypt, those are strong cards against Iggy, we know that. The fact that theyre weak weapons against TES is true but it doesnt completly steal the show for me. Cards like Duress and Hymn hurt TES alot more than Iggy. Ive seen TES blow down to 3-4 cards an struggle a pathetic EtW alot now. Iggy can just Mystical Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains and win.

Not that I really have much to add in this whole thing, but I figure I'd point out that at the last large tournament (GAGG), I saw TES running over black disruption decks. Deadguy, Pox, etc. They were disrupting them a little early, but couldn't compete with the raw power of the deck's draws.

You either highly overestimate the black deck in that matchup or seriously underestimate TES's ability to fight disruption. Pick one.


Right now (as in, TES still hasn't done much yet whereas Ill-Gotten Gains has several high-quality finishes in a variety of places (including a single T16 at a Grand Prix and a handful of strong finishes elsewhere)), Ill-Gotten Gains has to be the favorite.


But until TES puts up serious results, I probably would take it under less metagame consideration than I would Ill-Gotten Gains.

IGGY Pop has also been in the metagame for over a year longer than this deck, so put that into consideration as well. If TES was around back then, it is possible ( I dare say probable) that you would think otherwise. Since it's release, there has only been a single large event in the Northeast (not counting those Meandeck Opens with poor turnouts) and the deck put two players in the top16. Not a top8, but it showed the deck is a force. It's also shown a lot of progress in the tournaments over in Europe, including a large win. On the other hand, Iggy Pop has for the most part fallen off the radar. With the exception of that win by the creator of the deck, there really hasn't been much of a showing for it in recent months (and don't count that 9-man Smmenen showing).

kicks_422
02-24-2007, 08:21 AM
Black disruption does NOT kill TES.

I playtested against Deadguy a while back, he had the combo-crippling draw of Ritual into Duress, Hymn. Next turn, I Tendrils him for 24.

Given the versatility of cards in TES, it gives the deck a lot more options, but also exposes it to inconsistency (4 Tutor hands, for example). Mulligans by TES are less crippling though, because even a 5-card hand could be strong enough to win.

The only things I see that Iggy Pop does better is mana stability and a clear goal to winning. The first one doesn't really matter when all TES needs theoretically is 1 land, and the second one isn't really a big one becuase having more ways to win than chaining IGG's into Tendrils is sometimes a boon.

It's just that TES takes so much more THINKING to play so less people are picking it up.

emidln
02-24-2007, 08:50 AM
I've played both decks extensively and the argument that TES only needs 1 land to win is kinda silly. Iggy Pop can do it on 1 land just as easily. Common examples are:

land, dark rit/lotus petal, led, led, infernal tutor
land, dark rit, cabal rit/dark rit/lotus petal, infernal tutor, infernal tutor, led

In versions modified to be less graveyard reliant, you can even do silly stuff like this:

land, dark rit, dark rit, grim tutor, infernal tutor/led, led


Iggy Pop, in a goldfish will win by turn 3 almost every hand. This is nearly the same as TES with one minor note: TES can fizzle/kill itself. Don't give me crap that it doesn't happen because I play the deck a lot and it simply does sometimes. A bad plunge or Diminishing Returns will happen once in awhile while Iggy Pop genuinely never has this problem.

As far as I can tell, the only general problem Iggy Pop has is an inability to beat mage hate, which seems to be easily remedied by cutting maindeck leyline of the void for 4x grim tutor. Grim Tutor does everything that Leyline goes against aggro (nothing) while allowing you to randomly setup early wins, recover from bad situations as an extra tutor, find bounce spells faster vs aggro-control, and setup double tendrils vs control. Additionally, from testing, it seems that Iggy Pop really wants a 2nd bounce and more land.

Notice that I don't consider Graveyard hate a problem with Iggy Pop. Played properly, Iggy Pop isn't graveyard reliant. Grim Tutor helps this significantly by letting you fetch more leds/dark rits as needed, but even standard builds can clumsily set up double tendrils by turns 5-6 if necessary.

From my perspective, the main reason to play TES over Iggy Pop is that TES can play faster than Grim Tutor-infused Iggy Pop against aggro-control, although the 1-2 turn difference (I seem to go off around turn 3-5 against aggro-control) doesn't appear to affect much since I'm trying for 2 Tendrils and not a single one. Xantid Swarm is much better against Control than Grim Tutor is game 1, but Grim Tutor is a lot better for Iggy Pop against aggro and pure control (which is likely to have more low-cc removal available).

See the Iggy Pop thread for more on my changes to Iggy Pop.

Nightmare
02-24-2007, 10:12 AM
You're taking a pretty big assumption by even mentioning Grim Tutor, as you are the only person in the world using it in IGG right now. It's by no means the norm, nor has it been extensively tested by anyone other than you and maybe some of your teammates. The fact is, IGG is reliant on the yard, in almost every situation. It almost cannot win without Ill-Gotten Gains. This is not opinion, it's 100% truth.

As for results, people, you have to remember that the card that broke TES wide open was Empty the Warrens, which was printed less than 6 months ago.

emidln
02-24-2007, 10:43 AM
The fact is, IGG is reliant on the yard, in almost every situation. It almost cannot win without Ill-Gotten Gains. This is not opinion, it's 100% truth.


How is Iggy Pop reliant on the graveyard? Even without Grim Tutor, you have 4 mystical tutor, 4 brainstorm (+ 8 fetches), 4 infernal tutor, 4 tendrils, and 4 intuition to setup double tendrils with a storm of 3-4 (depending on fetches) for the first. This is easily accomplished. If you have have extra mana, you can even filter Infernal Tutors into Infernal Tutors, much as you use Burning Wish to wish for Burning wish to build storm count sometimes with TES.

lukatron2
02-24-2007, 10:47 AM
I'm curious as to what showings TES has had recently, when not piloted by Fischer, Florian. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one.

Bane of the Living
02-24-2007, 10:55 AM
It seems the arguement is that TES is faster and has EtW but Iggy is more consistant and inevitable. I like to win fast but I like feeling safe with a combo deck even more. Why dont we just add empty the warrens to Iggy? The deck already plays mystic fuckin tutor and LED. So you probably wont even need to add a red dual.

Oh and its bullshit that Iggy cant win without Ill Gotten Gains. You actually side 3 out (leaving one as a tutor target) against anything playing lots of counter. The deck is more than capable of just going into a lethal tendrils, especially when it sides in Dark Confidants.

Anarky87
02-24-2007, 11:17 AM
True. but the same goes for TES. Example: Fow Xantid Swarm, then Daze/Counterspell a tutor or chant in responce to sacing LEDs

What if after you FoW my first Swarm, I play another and proceed to win? I mean as long as we're describing god hand scenarios here, why stop there? Arguing that, "Well, that's true, but I could also have every perfect answer to TES starting on turn 1." isn't a valid argument.


I like to win fast but I like feeling safe with a combo deck even more. Why dont we just add empty the warrens to Iggy?

Why don't you just play Solidarity? Just kiddin'

edgewalker
02-24-2007, 11:29 AM
I'm curious as to what showings TES has had recently, when not piloted by Fischer, Florian. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one.

If you'll notice the deck has only really been around in it's viable form for only a few month. It's still a baby. We've also only had 1 maybe 2 major tournaments during this span. Claiming, "well it hasn't done anything" isn't valid at this stage in the game. You need to for the skeptics to shut up and other people to catch on in order for it to produce showing that decks like other major decks of legacy have, and all of that takes more than a few months

Citrus-God
02-24-2007, 12:45 PM
Well... if you look at it like this, TES still needs the respect it deserves. The one thing people dont understand about TES is that it's fast because of the many card selections it can choose from when it combos off. Unlike IGG, sometimes certain set-ups are still premature (like the IGG loop), so it decides to go for something better for that point in time (Diminishing Returns). This is one of those decks that can kill you fast if you dont mull into an early FoW. You FoW their first turn Xantid Swarm, you gave them an oppurtunity to go off 2nd turn. That is how powerful TES is.


I apologize for my teammate Luke for not seeing TES as a strong deck. It may take a long time for many to see how strong this deck can be.

Bane of the Living
02-24-2007, 12:48 PM
Honestly a large boon for TES is The Epic Syndicate pushing it all over The Source. We all know Iggy was developed on the mana drain, a rival site. Its sitting in their DTB forum and it didnt even have a thread here on The Source till I created one. (Gee Golden Grahams too!) You cant claim TES didnt become viable till EtW came out because Tendrils combo has existed for years now. Wastedlife added the newest red cards and claimed ownership over the archetype. Now, Iggy has been around for at least 2 years. Its had little to no support from The Source yet its performed above its expectations at many events. The fact that TES has only been in its present form for months doesnt seem relivant to this discussion. Its been around in many different forms (Nausea, Contract Tendrils) and adding a few new cards usually doesnt change things completely. EtW may have opened some windows for storm combo, but lets not forget Iggy could adapt this change as well. Something I already mentioned. The best build of tendrils has already been created, and it holds its own against all the aforementioned hate cards. So it looks like its just Iggy's graveyard use vs. TES's chance of janky comboing. Personally I choice the deck that doesnt bastardize its sb.

lukatron2
02-24-2007, 01:46 PM
I apologize for my teammate Luke for not seeing TES as a strong deck. It may take a long time for many to see how strong this deck can be.

Shut up melvin, If you read opening post on page one, you can tell that I was simply quoting someone elses exact words but replacing "Iggy Pop" with "TES" and "Mike Bomholt" with "Floriann Fischer" in order to make the point that it was a stupid comment for that person (Mr. Nightmare) to bring up because you can say the same about TES.

I never said TES isn't a strong, I happen to think that it is FYI, but I'm just trying to argue in Iggy's defense because there are a couple of people who seem to think that it is strictly crappier than TES in every way when in actuality that is not the case...

outsideangel
02-24-2007, 02:43 PM
You cant claim TES didnt become viable till EtW came out because Tendrils combo has existed for years now. Wastedlife added the newest red cards and claimed ownership over the archetype. Now, Iggy has been around for at least 2 years. Its had little to no support from The Source yet its performed above its expectations at many events. The fact that TES has only been in its present form for months doesnt seem relivant to this discussion. Its been around in many different forms (Nausea, Contract Tendrils) and adding a few new cards usually doesnt change things completely. .


I'll go even further, and say that TES is just Long.dec for Legacy. Iggy is more like TPS for Legacy. Historically, Long.dec was more broken, (turn 1-2 kills, easily) but TPS could win through more hate (Stax dropping 3sphere and Chalice, for example).

Kronicler
02-24-2007, 02:57 PM
.... 'Cept that TES can deal with hate much easier than IGGy can because of MD Xantid Swarm, ETW, and Burning Wish for SB answers. So this brings us back to the question of why would anyone play IGGy when TES is faster and can more easily answer hate?

Kronicler

kicks_422
02-24-2007, 08:04 PM
.... 'Cept that TES can deal with hate much easier than IGGy can because of MD Xantid Swarm, ETW, and Burning Wish for SB answers. So this brings us back to the question of why would anyone play IGGy when TES is faster and can more easily answer hate?

Kronicler

Because playing Iggy Pop is a less of a headache than TES. There are more things that you can do with TES than with Iggy Pop, so seeing all those options, analyzing, and choosing one is really very tiring at times.

Bryant Cook
02-24-2007, 10:19 PM
Because playing Iggy Pop is a less of a headache than TES. There are more things that you can do with TES than with Iggy Pop, so seeing all those options, analyzing, and choosing one is really very tiring at times.

Should people's laziness be a deciding factor in choosing a deck? I think not, otherwise people would've dismissed Solidarity at first glance when it first came out.

Lego
02-24-2007, 11:37 PM
Should people's laziness be a deciding factor in choosing a deck? I think not, otherwise people would've dismissed Solidarity at first glance when it first came out.

Didn't they? For a really long time?

herbig
02-25-2007, 08:39 AM
Honestly a large boon for TES is The Epic Syndicate pushing it all over The Source. We all know Iggy was developed on the mana drain, a rival site.

Iggy Pop was developed by Mike Bomholt of Team Meandeck and posted on The Mana Drain.


Its sitting in their DTB forum and it didnt even have a thread here on The Source till I created one. (Gee Golden Grahams too!)

I can create threads too.


You cant claim TES didnt become viable till EtW came out because Tendrils combo has existed for years now. Wastedlife added the newest red cards and claimed ownership over the archetype.

TES wasn't viable until Empty the Warrens was printed. "Tendrils combo" isn't exactly an archetype. There are many ways to implement a kill with Tendrils of Agony. There is no question that TES borrowed a lot from Iggy Pop. That is why there is debate over which is stronger. Wastedlife does have ownership over the archetype.


Its been around in many different forms (Nausea, Contract Tendrils) and adding a few new cards usually doesnt change things completely.

Pikula decks splashed red over white and you had a brand new archetype. One that played completely differently from its' predecessor. Changing a few cards will completely change the way a deck is played and its' match ups. Nausea? Seriously? Why do people even bring up that deck as if it was ever a real deck? The same goes for Contract Tendrils, but seriously, Nausea?


Something I already mentioned.

This is an incomplete sentence. Why did you mention Nausea?


The best build of tendrils has already been created,

Not to get technical, but this is a mathematical impossibility. BTW, Nausea wasn't even close to the best build. In fact I don't think that deck ever won a single game of tournament magic.


Personally I choice the deck that doesnt bastardize its sb.

Personally, discussions like these are pointless. I seriously can't stop laughing about Nausea being brought into a supposedly meaningful discussion.

etrigan
02-25-2007, 11:53 AM
Should people's laziness be a deciding factor in choosing a deck? I think not, otherwise people would've dismissed Solidarity at first glance when it first came out.


There was a time in Rath/Urza's T2 when Bargain was the best deck in the format. But, being hard to play, people generally chose Replenish as the combo deck to play.

Ease of play, or 'laziness' as you call it, is a big factor when choosing decks.

(And please, no one give me any that 'this is the deck for skilled players' bullshit.)

Nightmare
02-25-2007, 12:26 PM
I'm glad to see this discussion being taken seriously. I wasn't kidding when i said I think this is one of the bigger questions in the upper-tiers of the format, and I'm glad that even if people don't agree, they are willing to take the discussion seriously.


Honestly a large boon for TES is The Epic Syndicate pushing it all over The Source. We all know Iggy was developed on the mana drain, a rival site. Its sitting in their DTB forum and it didnt even have a thread here on The Source till I created one.IGGy Pop did have a thread here. It was part of the site that got archived, and as it had seen no activity in more than 3 months, it didn't get brought back. It recieved much more attention on The Mana Drain, where it's creator and most prominent players frequent. I'm not sure what your accusatory tone is supposed to imply, but I do know that I don't appreciate it. Of course our team will support the deck we created. We feel it's one of the best decks in the format. Until other people play it (which won't happen if we don't discuss it) we can't be taken seriously in such a bold claim.

(Gee Golden Grahams too!)Golden Grahms is a modification of a deck built on The Source by Rag Man, called The Game. The discussion of Slavagers Game is inside that thread for the most part. Again, you should make sure to get your facts straight before making unfounded claims.

You cant claim TES didnt become viable till EtW came out because Tendrils combo has existed for years now. Wastedlife added the newest red cards and claimed ownership over the archetype.EtW made this deck viable. That's the long and the short of it. No Tendrils Combo deck before this one had access to two separate win conditions with the Storm Mechanic that were as powerful as Tendrils and EtW. Yes, combo has existed for years. In no format before this has it had access to 4 Burning Wish, 4 LED, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Infernal Tutor, and 2 separate 4 mana storm win conditions. This is a new deck, and Wastedlife is it's creator. Of course he claims ownership on this archetype.

Now, Iggy has been around for at least 2 years. Its had little to no support from The Source yet its performed above its expectations at many events. The fact that TES has only been in its present form for months doesnt seem relivant to this discussion. Its been around in many different forms (Nausea, Contract Tendrils) and adding a few new cards usually doesnt change things completely.That's great for IGGy and it's players. How does that have anything to do with the statement "Given the time IGG has had, I believe TES will equal IGG in performance, or outperform IGG."

Contract Tendrils is about 10x closer to being IGGy Pop than it is to being TES. Nausea sucked, and was closer to belcher than anything else. Please do some research.


EtW may have opened some windows for storm combo, but lets not forget Iggy could adapt this change as well. Something I already mentioned. The best build of tendrils has already been created, and it holds its own against all the aforementioned hate cards. So it looks like its just Iggy's graveyard use vs. TES's chance of janky comboing. Personally I choice the deck that doesnt bastardize its sb.Do you read what you write before you hit the post button? You should consider it. You "choice" the deck? Way to go. As for the content, my entire point is that IGGy has now jumped to a third color for protection. To do so, it destabalized its manabase (to what degree is arguable). If they choose to adapt to utilize EtW, they will be an inferior version of TES, so why wouldn't you play TES instead? The question has never been if they "could" splash red, it's if they "should." Red offers a million benefits between EtW and Burning Wish/targets, it seems silly to me not to take advantage of them.

Shriekmaw
02-25-2007, 01:22 PM
"Given the time IGG has had, I believe TES will equal IGG in performance, or outperform IGG."


I would like to give my take on the argument of TES vs. Iggy Pop. I would like to start off by saying TES is an interesting combo deck that will do decent at Legacy events in the future, but Iggy Pop is clearly the more consistent combo deck.

The most updated version of Iggy Pop has included splashing white main deck for access to Orim's Chant in the board, which is something that is needed for its harder matchups with control archetypes.

A lot of folks don't understand the power of Leyline of the Void until they start playtesting matchups and realizing how good the card is in the deck. The average turn that Iggy Pop can win is 2.5, which is very fast in terms of raw power.

I'm not an expect on the TES archetype, but it lacks the consistency that Iggy Pop brings to the table.

If you want a good idea on which deck will do better, then be prepared for GP Columbus, because a lot of players will bring Iggy Pop including a lot of pros.

The statement above is pretty funny, because there is no way that TES will ever equal Iggy Pop in performance in big main stream Legacy events.

Kronicler
02-25-2007, 02:51 PM
I would like to start off by saying TES is an interesting combo deck that will do decent at Legacy events in the future, but Iggy Pop is clearly the more consistent combo deck.

I'm not an expect on the TES archetype, but it lacks the consistency that Iggy Pop brings to the table.

Have you ever played with TES, or are you just assuming that it is inconsistent? What about IGGy Pop, are you just assuming that because it has t-8ed at a large tournament that it is super consistent? The two above statements are straight up incorrect, as TES is just as consistent as IGGy Pop.


A lot of folks don't understand the power of Leyline of the Void until they start playtesting matchups and realizing how good the card is in the deck.

Ok, sure, everyone loves mindtwisting their opponents, but in many recent builds that I have seen, leyline is replaced by orim's chant / xantid swarm as these cards actually help against IGGy's hard matchups, control. At times, the mindtwist play can be amazing and straight up win you the game, but it is usually just a cute trick, as if you can resolve an IGG, aka they have no counterspells, then you can usually just win the game anyway a turn or so later.


The average turn that Iggy Pop can win is 2.5, which is very fast in terms of raw power.

Once again, have you ever even played IGGy Pop? The average turn it wins in 3.5. I'm not really sure how you came up with 2.5 as even experts on the deck who play it all the time say that the average combo turn for iggy is 3.5.


there is no way that TES will ever equal Iggy Pop in performance in big main stream Legacy events.

Ok, this is just ignorant. Who are you to make this statement? How do you know that TES won't ever do as well as IGGy has done? If anything TES is poised to do better because it is less vulnerable to combo hate and has a much better game against any control decks. Completely unsupported ignorant broad generalizations like this really piss me off.

Kronicler

Shriekmaw
02-25-2007, 03:50 PM
I'm not quite sure why you have to verbally assault me for making my opinions know on the debate of TES vs. Iggy Pop. Wasn't this form created for the vary reason of stating someone's opinion. If you don't agree than just say so, you don't have to personally attack me over it.


I will admit, I haven't played TES before. I have however played Iggy Pop quite a few times and know its strength and weaknesses. That is the very reason why I believe its more resilient to hate.

I get the feeling that you think TES is the best combo deck in the format and there is nothing to change your opinion. Thats fine, but you would sound more intelligent if you could give me scenarios that would prove your point instead of these personal attacks.

Nightmare
02-25-2007, 04:13 PM
I'm not quite sure why you have to verbally assault me for making my opinions know on the debate of TES vs. Iggy Pop. Wasn't this form created for the vary reason of stating someone's opinion. If you don't agree than just say so, you don't have to personally attack me over it.


I will admit, I haven't played TES before. I have however played Iggy Pop quite a few times and know its strength and weaknesses. That is the very reason why I believe its more resilient to hate.

I get the feeling that you think TES is the best combo deck in the format and there is nothing to change your opinion. Thats fine, but you would sound more intelligent if you could give me scenarios that would prove your point instead of these personal attacks.Nick, I know you've played iggy Pop before, as you know I have. In fact, I was the first person in our meta to win with the deck. You also must know that out of our local people, it's a toss up between me and herbig as to who has the most experience overall playing combo in general. Both of us, Herbig and myself, have worked on creating this deck and both of us feel like it has more potential than Iggy-Pop. That should say something to you.

By your own admission, you've never played TES. Perhaps it's you who should take some time to learn the deck's strengths and weaknesses before expressing an opinion based on conjecture and feelings.

Zilla
02-25-2007, 04:25 PM
That is the very reason why I believe its more resilient to hate.
How can you possibly conclude that one deck is more resilient than another when you've only played one of the two decks you're comparing?

This is like saying, "I have never tried an orange, but I eat apples all the time so I know for a fact they taste better than oranges." It's totally nonsensical.

Citrus-God
02-25-2007, 04:59 PM
Shut up melvin, If you read opening post on page one, you can tell that I was simply quoting someone elses exact words but replacing "Iggy Pop" with "TES" and "Mike Bomholt" with "Floriann Fischer" in order to make the point that it was a stupid comment for that person (Mr. Nightmare) to bring up because you can say the same about TES.

I never said TES isn't a strong, I happen to think that it is FYI, but I'm just trying to argue in Iggy's defense because there are a couple of people who seem to think that it is strictly crappier than TES in every way when in actuality that is not the case...

IGGy-Pop is a good deck, but I still think it needs more flexibility. Then again, because of IGGy's consistence, it wins through more hate like Outsideangel said. Of course, TES wins through hate as well, just like IGGy, but much better. IGGy Pop is probably better against decks like Homebrew and Red Death, IMO, but TES is better against decks like Fish and Threshold.

thebadmagicplayer
02-25-2007, 05:55 PM
we'll all probably have a more definitive answer after GP Colombus, so till then or some high profile legacy tournament sooner, this thread is a little premature to be able to asess the potential of the two decks ageinst one another. so till then...

Shriekmaw
02-25-2007, 08:34 PM
Nick, I know you've played iggy Pop before, as you know I have. In fact, I was the first person in our meta to win with the deck. You also must know that out of our local people, it's a toss up between me and herbig as to who has the most experience overall playing combo in general. Both of us, Herbig and myself, have worked on creating this deck and both of us feel like it has more potential than Iggy-Pop. That should say something to you.

By your own admission, you've never played TES. Perhaps it's you who should take some time to learn the deck's strengths and weaknesses before expressing an opinion based on conjecture and feelings.

Adam, your right about yourself and Herbig being more experienced when it comes to combo decks in Legacy. I'm not trying a to take any credit away from anybody and maybe I do need to look into TES a bit more. I'm just taking my past experiences from combo decks in the past mostly through my experiences with standard and extended.

I do believe this discussion about which deck is better is a little early since TES hasn't really had the opportunity to post results in large tournaments as of yet. We also have to consider which region Legacy tournaments are held in, because up here in the northeast Iggy Pop isn't that popular, but if you travel to the Ohio region where the GP will be located Iggy Pop will be very big.

I'll be looking forward in seeing results posted by TES and I'll be also looking forward in playing against the deck.

Zilla
02-26-2007, 07:59 AM
I do believe this discussion about which deck is better is a little early since TES hasn't really had the opportunity to post results in large tournaments as of yet.
This isn't quite accurate. It took first place at a large, competitive tournament in Germany earlier this year. Obviously it needs more placings before it could be called a trend, but the deck has placed at a large tournament.

Bane of the Living
02-26-2007, 09:29 PM
I'm not sure what your accusatory tone is supposed to imply, but I do know that I don't appreciate it. Of course our team will support the deck we created. We feel it's one of the best decks in the format. Until other people play it (which won't happen if we don't discuss it) we can't be taken seriously in such a bold claim.
Golden Grahms is a modification of a deck built on The Source by Rag Man, called The Game. The discussion of Slavagers Game is inside that thread for the most part. Again, you should make sure to get your facts straight before making unfounded claims.

In no format before this has it had access to 4 Burning Wish, 4 LED, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Infernal Tutor, and 2 separate 4 mana storm win conditions. This is a new deck, and Wastedlife is it's creator. Of course he claims ownership on this archetype.

Do you read what you write before you hit the post button? You should consider it. You "choice" the deck? Way to go. As for the content, my entire point is that IGGy has now jumped to a third color for protection. To do so, it destabalized its manabase (to what degree is arguable). If they choose to adapt to utilize EtW, they will be an inferior version of TES, so why wouldn't you play TES instead? The question has never been if they "could" splash red, it's if they "should." Red offers a million benefits between EtW and Burning Wish/targets, it seems silly to me not to take advantage of them.

Why do you really need to reply in such a bantering tone? "Do I read what I write before I hit post?" OMG my terrible grammer!!!

Let me start off by clearing things up.. Although this discussion has some merit, my point is The Source, and moreso the EPIC Syndicate, is being very pushy about their new pet deck. The tendrils deck already in our upper tier is Iggy Pop, I wasnt refering to Nausea there. I was referring to Nausea when comparing the Tendrils decks already created. You arent creating a new deck because you added the newest cards to come out. Sorry to piss in your cornflakes. As far as Im concerned, TES IS an updated version of Nausea, the cornerstone for both TES and Iggy. It took out the shitty Helms for the newest Rite of Flames, and added the much needed Empty the Warrens. You alter the egg count since your not running helm and look, your playing TES now!! Wastedlife can claim ownership, I dont give a rats behind, and didnt express such a behind either.

When I refered to Golden Grahams and Iggy on The Mana Drain, I was implying that a rival site is obviously pushing decks they personally see to have caliber. They do. The difference between what The Source considers a DTB and The Mana Drain dumbfounds me. Your doing the same thing here with TES. It took the deck like a week to move from N&D to Open, and its had only one strong showing across the globe. Whatever, I think the deck belongs there. I think it has very obvious benifits over IGGy, and vise versa. But when you decide to say "IM MR NIGHTMARE AND I KNOW IGGY POP IS STRICTLY INFERIOR TO MY TEAMS NEW DECK".. Prepare to get steamrolled by disbelief. Iggy has shown numbers, your deck hasnt. Fix that and Im sure you'll see a change in opinion.

@Herbig
You did alot of typing to make not a single effing point. Something about. Incomplete sentences. If you were refering to Deadguy and Red Death, the decks strategies are completely different because your tuning the deck more aggro as the death. Nausea(or other tendrils) adding Rite of Flame and Empty the Warrens does keep it the same deck. It does play the same way. The deck is simply adding the best cards that come out as they come out, keeping the same strategy of build storm and kill the opponent as quick as possible.

Look we can make a little table so we can do this openly and easily. If anyone wants to argue anything here please do. Lets keep this list updated.

Iggy Pop
- Relies on graveyard abuse
- A full turn slower
+ Better against attrition matches
+ Leyline strengths
+ Mindtwist
+ More consistant combo engine
+ 15 card SB
+ Plenty of basic lands

TES
- No basic lands
- Worse against discard w/ clock
- Limited SB space
+ A turn faster
+ Doesnt need graveyard
+ Wishboard for utility
+ Xantid Swarm

Well both have the edge with whatever card theyre playing for protection, whether it be iggy's xantids, chants, or leyline. Or TES's Xantids. I dont see why Mr Nightmare thinks splashing a third color to play Orims Chant is so terrible when TES is playing all five magically gathering colors. Iggy can play around Wasteland, and TES cant. Iggy is better against attrition and TES is better against control. Iggy is reliant on the yard, TES is reliant on playing perfectly.

I see Iggy's fail safe combo engine, and full 15 card SB as its biggest strengths. For TES all I see is a turn shaved off your kill. You can argue Xantids if you want but Iggy can play them. TES has that great burning wish but like I said, at the cost of sb slots. Theres no doubt the two are close in the power of their performance, but I think its about preference. Yes most people prefer to think a bit less for 5-8 rounds of a tourny and play Iggy. TES is harder to play and easier to fuck up with. People dont like that much. Discussion on the list of possitives and negatives?

If I made any grammer/spelling mistakes make sure and throw it in my face and make a large deal out of it.

Again, Im not hammering on Wastedlife in any way for designing and promoting a great powerfull deck.

why don't we tone the hostility down just a notch---frogboy

By the way, folks, comments/questions/concerns regarding N&D and Open status are best directed towards GodzillA and not the site at large, because we don't actively go looking for these things until they're brought to our attention.

Also, I'm not really sure what the deal with intersite rivalry is, but, like, really, let's have a little maturity going.

blarknob
02-26-2007, 09:42 PM
mtgthesource.com

Kronicler
02-26-2007, 09:52 PM
mtgthesource.com

what?!?!

Bryant Cook
02-26-2007, 10:35 PM
I'm going to be the bigger man and not flame back and/or slander.

There are many differences between TES and Nausea, so I suggest you retract your statement. Nausea plays horrible cards such as Eggs, Helm of Awakening, Spoils of the Vault, no protection and a different manabase. TES, has much stronger cards such as Plunge into Darkness, Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Xantid Swarm and more efficient manabase. In Vintage, decks and differences can be determined by as few as 13 cards or less. I see no reason why that rule/ way to look at decks doesn't work here in Legacy. Those 13 cards changes the way a deck plays and the archetype of the deck, I'd recommend that you look into arguments and do some research before you make assumptions about decks. There's a significant difference between Nausea and The EPIC Storm if you care to continue this argument carry it on in another thread, it is not appropriate here in a TES vs. Iggy Pop thread.

If there is a feud between The Mana Drain and the Source that's fine; it has no place in this thread and shouldn't change or determine which deck is better. The fact no one decided to create a thread on either deck (Iggy or SGame) doesn't mean the source doesn't like The Mana Drain it means that people didn't express interest in the deck. Don't blame the mods or admins for other people's interest or what they care about. Also, last time I knew there was no rule on any forum/board that says I can't promote a deck I put my hard work, time, and effort into just to have it dismissed. Because people haven't tested or put their time into testing.

You seemed to leave out a lot of disadvantages that were previously mentioned in the thread against Iggy Pop. I'm not going to repost everything since it's already in the thread; however, it's something you should've looked into.

Who says TES can't dodge wasteland? If you fear wasteland hold it in your hand until you draw another one or until you feel safe to combo. Also, Undiscovered Paradise dodges wasteland, play a spell, such as Xantid and hold the land until you feel safe to combo.

Is being a good player too much to ask? Really? You say TES's downfall is that you have to play it perfectly, why should that be a disadvantage? If you can't comprehend a deck, practice until you get it, or even taking the time to test and learn the deck, don't discredit it for your laziness.

Since when was having a wishboard a huge disadvantage? It allows an out game one and I still have a SB to side things in. How many times do people not use X cards in their SB in a tournament? I for one rarely use every card in my sideboard in a tournament when not playing a wishboard.

Xero
02-26-2007, 10:46 PM
I don't really want to get involved with this, but... I have to say, Undiscovered Paradise doesn't really beat Wasteland. For example; You play Paradise. On my turn, I waste it.

Kronicler
02-26-2007, 10:56 PM
Yeah, I think people are a little confused about how undiscovered paradise works. Oracle wording:

Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. During your next untap step, as you untap your permanents, return Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand.

So it doesn't interfere with infernal tutor hellbent, but it is completely wasteable as well.

Kronicler

Lego
02-26-2007, 11:24 PM
I don't really want to get involved with this, but... I have to say, Undiscovered Paradise doesn't really beat Wasteland. For example; You play Paradise. On my turn, I waste it.

Wastedlife knows how Undiscovered Paradise works. He meant it in a more general sense. You can play Xantid Swarm, and the following turn pick up the Paradise. Often a deck will need to use early Waste for mana, or they'll simply not draw it until a bit later. Paradise stays in your hand until you're ready to combo off. It's not an ideal answer to Wasteland, but that's okay because it was just one of the answers he listed. Tight play is your best aswer to Wasteland, and that's a perfectly fine answer. You play 11 land, and need one to combo off.

Nightmare
02-26-2007, 11:26 PM
There is no feud between TMD and the Source. I have no idea where you're getting that from.

I've already made a point to make clear and concise arguments refuting the points or supporting the counterclaims to everything Bane_of_the_Living has said. I don't feel the need to restate them. Since you (BotL) feel the need to flame me, wastedlife, my team, and this site for proposing that this deck MAY (and in my opinion does) have more power than an established deck with similar gameplan, perhaps I should leave it at that.

outsideangel
02-27-2007, 02:57 AM
Don't "Which is Better" threads always turn out well? Seriously, the decks are different.

If'in you really, really, really want to see which deck is better, then just wait. If TES is better than Iggy, we'll all see it eventually. It will gradually begin to supplant Iggy and place at major tournaments. On the other hand, if Iggy is better, TES will become "just a fad" and people will eventually drop it.

The only other way is testing. Find a disinterested party and have them test, say, a hundred games pre-board and a hundred games post-board against the most powerful, popular, and prevalent decks in Legacy. Can't argue with hard data.

Either way, all we're doing now is conjecture, lathered with a healthy dose of mudslinging, and the only thing that's changing people's minds on is just how respectable a community we are.




PS- On whether TES is "updated Nasuea": No, I don't believe that the deck is an updated or modified version of Nasuea. It most decidedly looks and plays like a legacy port of Long.dec. It's got the Wishes and LEDs and Rituals (plus the new one, Rite of Flame) and Ill-Gotten Gains is just a crappier Yawgmoth's Will. Infernal Tutor/Plunge replaces all the restricted Type 1 tutors/other nutty stuff like Recall, (plus Infernal hadn't been created then) and the manabase is less busted because it can't run the real So-Lo-Moxen, but can run 4x Chrome and Petal. Obviously, Legacy is a less powerful format than Type 1, so the deck is a little slower (turn 2-3 as compared to Long's 1-2) and a little more vulnerable, but that's probably how combo in this format is "supposed" to be, or how it ended up, anyway. Overall, I'd say it's probably one of the best and most faithful ports into this format in a long time.

Nightmare
02-27-2007, 08:35 AM
I dont know why your saying that.. Just because this is the source doesnt mean your deck wont make it anywhere. Ive developed a deck that made it into the Open forums. You just need to come to a unified decklist and show some minor results.

Bane of the Living
02-28-2007, 06:34 PM
There are many differences between TES and Nausea, so I suggest you retract your statement. Nausea plays horrible cards such as Eggs, Helm of Awakening, Spoils of the Vault, no protection and a different manabase. TES, has much stronger cards such as Plunge into Darkness, Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Xantid Swarm and more efficient manabase. In Vintage, decks and differences can be determined by as few as 13 cards or less. I see no reason why that rule/ way to look at decks doesn't work here in Legacy. Those 13 cards changes the way a deck plays and the archetype of the deck, I'd recommend that you look into arguments and do some research before you make assumptions about decks. There's a significant difference between Nausea and The EPIC Storm if you care to continue this argument carry it on in another thread, it is not appropriate here in a TES vs. Iggy Pop thread.


Again, the reason I brought Nausea up in the first place was to somewhat claim this combo engine has been run in the past. You guys are saying the deck hasnt been around long enough to show up Iggy, but the deck in weaker obsolete forms has. Nausea was built with the same basic concepts, it was discarded when its inconsistancies reached a stalemate. It looks like adding the newest combo key pieces (RoF, EtW) truely does turn the turn 2 tendrils deck into a contender. I believe the deck at one point ran Plunge, it started playing IT when it was released, it had the burning wishes, and it eventually dropped the land grant gimmick to turn its manabase close to yours. Some people prefered Xantids in the maindeck even.. Congratulations, you've tuned the turn 2 tendrils deck very well. Its improved alot in the past year.



You seemed to leave out a lot of disadvantages that were previously mentioned in the thread against Iggy Pop. I'm not going to repost everything since it's already in the thread; however, it's something you should've looked into.

Who says TES can't dodge wasteland? If you fear wasteland hold it in your hand until you draw another one or until you feel safe to combo. Also, Undiscovered Paradise dodges wasteland, play a spell, such as Xantid and hold the land until you feel safe to combo.


If you wouldnt mind just copy paste the - & + list and lets keep track of these things. If thats what this discussion is for go on to discuss the other disadvantages.

I beat the deck with Ankh Sligh last night on MWS. TMNT was playing the deck, I dont know how skilled he was since he dropped LED and passed the turn at some point during a game. But I really sealed a game with CotV@0 and 2 consecutive wastelands. I would claim an entirely wastable manabase somewhat of a disadvantage. Im sure someone must agree?



Is being a good player too much to ask? Really? You say TES's downfall is that you have to play it perfectly, why should that be a disadvantage? If you can't comprehend a deck, practice until you get it, or even taking the time to test and learn the deck, don't discredit it for your laziness.

Since when was having a wishboard a huge disadvantage? It allows an out game one and I still have a SB to side things in. How many times do people not use X cards in their SB in a tournament? I for one rarely use every card in my sideboard in a tournament when not playing a wishboard.

I dont think thats a downfall at all, but I think it can be a problem when minor play mistakes cost combo the game. This is usually common when it comes to combo but TES is rather unforgiving. I do believe Iggy to be more forgiving to the common play mistakes. Some people are discouraged by decks that take 95% accuracy to play, some arent. Oh well thats how it goes.

Your point about sb cards is a good debate. But regardless, a wishboard hampers the room you have to metagame your deck. I see that as a small disadvantage, but I also see the deck having the utility answers game one as a benifit. How many non wish targets are you playing at the moment, 6?



There is no feud between TMD and the Source. I have no idea where you're getting that from.

I didnt say there was a feud but I can notice a lack of promotion for both decks I mentioned developed on TMD. Its been that way for awhile. While it is up to each individual's preference on what to play and discuss its easy to see that the decks legacy adepts are 'into' are the ones put on a pedestal. This has been such a case.



I've already made a point to make clear and concise arguments refuting the points or supporting the counterclaims to everything Bane_of_the_Living has said. I don't feel the need to restate them. Since you (BotL) feel the need to flame me, wastedlife, my team, and this site for proposing that this deck MAY (and in my opinion does) have more power than an established deck with similar gameplan, perhaps I should leave it at that.

I have no hard feelings about you or the rest of your team, Im sorry you got the idea this was flamming. My opposition stands as to which deck has more game, but I didnt feel the words I typed on a computer screen expressed the tone you picked up. Im a harsh critic to someone who very blatantly claims a deck is superior in all ways to a Grand Prix contender. This should be understandable.

I think outsideangel said it best. Hard testing results buy people over. We'll see if this deck comes out on top in a few months. I wish Bryant and anyone else handling the deck luck at GP Columbus trying to put this deck on the map.

troopatroop
02-28-2007, 07:02 PM
I see so much say being put on results and "we'll see after the GP." Forget that. singular tournaments are not perfect indicators of power. Luck is too much of a factor. Endlessly testing matchups should be enough information. As far as I'm concerned, TES has been tested like a lab rat. If you don't want to believe the results, that's fine, but you CAN'T disagree with the results, just because they werent in a tournament setting.

herbig
03-02-2007, 03:03 AM
If you were refering to Deadguy and Red Death, the decks strategies are completely different because your tuning the deck more aggro as the death. Nausea(or other tendrils) adding Rite of Flame and Empty the Warrens does keep it the same deck. It does play the same way. The deck is simply adding the best cards that come out as they come out, keeping the same strategy of build storm and kill the opponent as quick as possible.

Wouldn't adding more rituals, a shakier manabase to support said rituals as well as an alternate win that gives your opponent a few turns to find an answer make TES a more aggressive build of IGG?

Do they play very differently? Yes. Are they the same deck? Inasmuch as Gifts is the same as Long, casting a bunch of spells and playing Tendrils, yeah they're the same deck. They just utilize different cards to get there, but the end result is the same. One is slower, more resilient to hate, and more consistent, whatever.

Honestly though I don't know what you're arguing about. Do you not like me? There isn't any need to flame my short and to the point style of posting. In the future I'll try and make complete sentences full of spite and useless banter.

Seriously though, why do you keep bringing up Nausea? You mention it in like every post.

blarknob
03-02-2007, 12:22 PM
I actually think Nausea is relevant in this conversation. Its relevant because it was championed for a long time by the source while iggy was out in the open.

Just saying :)

Bryant Cook
03-02-2007, 12:23 PM
Whats that have to do with TES vs. IGGy?

Ewokslayer
03-02-2007, 01:02 PM
I don't think Nausea was ever "championed" anywhere. Ridiculed yes, championed no.

TES is not an updated Nausea. Yes they have similarities but so do all Survival decks, that doesn't make them the same, or mean they play the same. If anything, TES is an updated version of Bryant's various attempts at making a Tendrils deck (see Shlong, etc).

As for the Source v Mana Drain thing.
Perhaps the reason there was not much talk in the original Iggy Pop thread (which existed before you bane) was because the posts in there were stupid so the creator of the deck stopped posting there and only posted "tech" in the mana drain thread. The same can be said of our Solidarity thread which is really the only useful Solidarity thread on the internet. It isn't a sign of dislike between the sites it is just "market forces" driving people to the site that doesn't suck for that particular conversation.

Now on to the actual topic.

I have tested at various times Iggy Pop, TES, Nausea, and The Janky Storm (damn the last two were hard to admit to).

I don't particular find TES all that hard to play. You cast spells, generate mana and then play a storm card. Yes Wasteland can be an issue but TES is also capable of winning without playing a land, so that must be considered.

Burning Wish gives the deck so much versatility and utility which I don't think can be stressed enough. Yes, it does limit your sideboard to a degree; but this is a combo deck. How much space do you actually have to board cards in? Unless you are trying for a transformational sideboard which Iggy Pop has done on occasion; those spaces are wasted (i.e. E-Plague in Iggy Pop's board)

The speed and tutor issues are other important points.
Iggy Pop has more powerful tutors/draw (Brainstorm, Intuition, Infernal, Mystical) to TES (Brainstorm, Wish, Infernal, Plunge) but one set of them cost 3 mana. I have never liked Intution in Iggy Pop and was so thankful when Infernal Tutor got printed. However, I believe that having Intuition in Iggy Pop slows it down glacially.

Overall I believe TES to be the better deck in terms of raw power and I don't believe that it has much in the way of consistancy issues when compared to Iggy Pop. Whether it is better in a specific metagame is unknown and can't be known until matchup analysis is performed for both decks and the metagame can be defined, which considering over 40% of the decks at a tournament are "random" isn't going to be anytime soon.

blarknob
03-02-2007, 01:14 PM
Whats that have to do with TES vs. IGGy?

It establishes the history of the source promoting an in house dark ritual deck over iggy pop.

Given TES is a thoroughbred when compared to the syphalitic mule that was nausea, but the behavior of promoting in house decks while discounting strong decks from outside is a patttern that seems to repeat itslef often on the source and I believe is very relevant to this topic.

clear now?

Ewokslayer
03-02-2007, 01:17 PM
It establishes a the history of the source promoting an in house dark ritual deck over iggy pop.

Given TES is a thoroughbred when compared to the syphalitic mule that was nausea, but the behavior of promoting in house decks while discounting strong decks from outside is a patttern that seems to repeat itslef often on the source and I believe is very relevant to this topic.

clear now?

Except for the part where I said


I don't think Nausea was ever "championed" anywhere. Ridiculed yes, championed no.

Just because Evil Roopey liked the deck doesn't mean the Source did.

Peter_Rotten
03-02-2007, 01:35 PM
When I refered to Golden Grahams and Iggy on The Mana Drain, I was implying that a rival site is obviously pushing decks they personally see to have caliber. They do. The difference between what The Source considers a DTB and The Mana Drain dumbfounds me. Your doing the same thing here with TES. It took the deck like a week to move from N&D to Open, and its had only one strong showing across the globe. Whatever, I think the deck belongs there. I think it has very obvious benifits over IGGy, and vise versa. But when you decide to say "IM MR NIGHTMARE AND I KNOW IGGY POP IS STRICTLY INFERIOR TO MY TEAMS NEW DECK".. Prepare to get steamrolled by disbelief. Iggy has shown numbers, your deck hasnt. Fix that and Im sure you'll see a change in opinion.

It's about time to lock this thread and to clear up some serious misinformation:

1. There is no MTS-TMD rivalry. Any sort of nonsense was ended with a Hell-in-a-Cell match between the mods and admins of both sites. We obviously won. Even the outside interference from SCG could not stop us. I have the championship belt to prove it. No, really.
2. TES spent a considerable amount of time in the N&D forum. I didn't take notes about that time, but I bet it was at least two months.
3. The Game was developed on MTS. Someone took its shell and turned it into a better combo version. I don't recall if Salvager Game was originally suggested on the MTS Game thread or a new thread stated on TMD or SCG. But to the winner of creating a shitty combo deck goes the spoils.
4. Nausea sucked. Always did. Always will. And it's hard to spell.

The End

Peter_Rotten
03-02-2007, 02:04 PM
Oh, and I just did some homework about the TES thread - from the Mod Logs:


Mr. Nightmare 15:26, 15th Jan 2007 Thread moved with redirect to 'Open Legacy Discussion'.

The date of the first post of the TES thread =
11-11-2006, 10:22 PM

Don't make slanderous claims when you cannot back them up.