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View Full Version : Better late than never, right? T8 with Aluren at the Running GAGG tournament



Obfuscate Freely
03-07-2007, 12:48 AM
I actually received a PM asking me to share my experiences playing Aluren, which was in heartening contrast to the general attitude towards the deck on these boards. When I realized that most of the reactions I'd gotten at tournaments, from both opponents and spectators, were positive, I decided I would go ahead and post something for anyone interested in the deck to read.

Unfortunately, I didn't take notes at The Mana Leak Open, and remembering details about matches from the two-day event proved impossible. So I can't give a report from that tournament.

However, I did actually write out a report the night I got home from the GAGG tournament on February 17th. I never bothered to post it, so now its two weeks old, but I think it still holds value.

I played Toad’s exact maindeck, which I started testing with a couple of months ago, and haven't changed to this day. It seems very well built, and I'm just not comfortable altering it, yet.

4x Aluren
4x Brainstorm
3x Intuition

4x Raven Familiar
3x Man-o-War
3x Cavern Harpy
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Eternal Witness
1x Spike Feeder

4x Force of Will
4x Wall of Roots
3x Wall of Blossoms
3x Cabal Therapy

4x Tropical Island
4x Bayou
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
2x Polluted Delta
5x Island
1x Forest

I did change the sideboard a little, though.

3x Disrupt
3x Null Rod
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Loaming Shaman

I replaced Divert with Disrupt because Disrupt is more versatile, being strong against storm combo and Red Death as well as Deadguy Ale-type decks. The Null Rods are there to help out against Iggy Pop and TES, which I expected to be well represented at this tournament.

Round 1: RW Vial Goblins

Game 1: I remember having a hunch as we shuffled up that he was playing Goblins. I win the roll, and end up keeping a hand that is pretty good against Goblins, but fairly weak against any sort of combo deck (no Therapies or Forces). I was pleasantly surprised to see him open with a Lackey, and happily threw down a Wall to stop it. After that, the game dragged on a little, with him getting like three Vials and two Lackeys but not much else, and me clogging up the ground with multiple Walls and I believe the Spike Feeder. Eventually, he got out a Siege-Gang, killed the Feeder, and started actually doing damage. The turn before I would have finally died to his horde, I topdecked whatever missing piece I needed, and started going off Necropotence-style with Harpy, Man-o-war, and Wall of Blossoms. Eventually I found the Witness, got back the Feeder, and gained infinite life. I didn’t feel like showing him the full combo, so I convinced him that scooping is better than waiting to get beaten down by Cavern Harpies while I sit behind two million life points.

Game 2: Both of us drew much better this game, which favored me more than it did him. He tapped out for a Ringleader twice before I was able to assemble the combo and go off. After I juggle a Raven Familiar and a Cavern Harpy a few times, he asked me if Aluren is symmetrical. When I told him that of course it is, he immediately dropped 5 Goblins onto the table, which I found sort of amusing. I asked if he was putting them all onto the stack at once, and he replied “er, one at a time.” They were all completely irrelevant, of course, and I continued going off safe in the knowledge that the last two cards in his hand were almost certainly blank.

…Although after the game he showed me that he was holding Armageddon. That would have sucked, if he had found white mana. Whew.

Round 2: Anwar (AnwarA101) with Red Death

Game 1: Getting paired against another Virginian sucked, but we knew this would be a good match, at least. I won the die roll, but he opened with Dark Ritual + Phyrexian Negator. Honestly, that’s about the scariest thing Red Death can do against Aluren. I took some beats, but he was light on disruption and threats other than the Negator. I had a turn two Wall of Roots, and a turn three Man-o-War for the Negator, but no Therapy to get rid of it for good. A few turns later, I had another Man-o-War, along with a Force of Will (pitching another Force) to finally kill the damn thing, but this completely depleted my hand. At this point, Anwar began topdecking land destruction effects like he was being paid to, and he actually forced me to Intuition for lands when he targeted my last land with a Sinkhole (cast off of two Walls of Roots). Alas, I could not draw enough lands to resolve Aluren by the time I found one, and Anwar finally found some more big black beats to put the game away.

Game 2: This game dragged on just like the first, with Anwar’s draws being very threat-light once again. I resolved a Pernicious Deed early on, but was hesitant to use it when Anwar finally found a Negator. I took the beats for a couple of turns, and then made a mistake that probably cost me the game. When he attacked with the Negator when I was below 10 life, I had a Witness in play. I decided that, rather than use the Deed, I should Chain of Vapor the Witness, and then sacrifice a land to copy it targeting the Negator. Anwar obviously sacrificed a land to bounce the Deed, as well. The play was awful because I didn’t have the mana to play and activate Deed the following turn, while Anwar did have the mana to replay the Negator, but what made it even worse was the Wasteland on my Bayou (my only black source) that I didn’t see coming. Anwar then played both the bounced Negator and a backup copy he’d been holding, I drew a Tropical Island for my next turn, and I lost the game in short order.

I had gone through about half of the deck without finding an Aluren, which would have immediately won me the game in any of the latter turns, but I still could have probably won the game if I had played correctly.

Round 3: Trevor (Getsickanddie) with Garv.dec

Game 1: I won the roll once again, and lead with a fetchland. He lead with a fetchland as well, but cracked it for a Taiga and played a Kird Ape. I played a Wall of Roots. He played a Rancor on the Ape, and passed the turn, missing his land drop.

Huh. Who doesn’t attack here? It’s not like he would have risked anything. As it turns out, I would have certainly taken 4 damage, since I didn’t want to lose the Wall to a post-combat land + burn spell.

Of course, the reason I wanted the wall to live is because I had the turn three win. How lucky.

Game 2: He opened with another Kird Ape, which got to hit for some damage this time. I also had another turn two Wall of Roots. Having drawn lands this game, Trevor tapped out on turn three for a Troll Ascetic, which was unfortunate for him since I had another turn three win.

I apologized afterwards, making sure to tell Trevor that Aluren is not designed to go off on turn three and almost never does. I don’t think that made him feel much better, but he did tell me he was happy to see the deck doing well. Thanks for taking the bad beats well, Trevor.

Round 4: Rian Litchard (kirdape) with RBU Vial Affinity

Game 1: As a member of Team Meandeck, Rian might have been the only other person in the room who had any sort of experience with Aluren. It was a little intimidating knowing that my opponent had probably tested my deck more than I had.

I lost the die roll this time, and so was facing down a very quick clock. His draw was strong, with a second-turn Ravager which I Forced, some more pressure on turn three, and a lethal Fling on turn four, which I had another Force for. At the end of that turn, I Intuitioned for Alurens, leaving my hand as Cavern Harpy, Raven Familiar, and Aluren. I had to pull a land off the top to win the game, so I tap the top of my deck and riiiiiip a Windswept Heath like a sack.

Game 2: I mulled two no-landers into 5 lands this game. My subsequent draws weren’t so awful, but his opening 7 was more than enough to bury me, especially with him going first.

Game 3: This game was similar to Game 1, but I was on the play, which left me with some breathing room. When I played Aluren and showed him Harpy + Familiar, he scooped.

Round 5: Adam Barnello (Mr. Nightmare) with Hanni/EPIC Fish

Game 1: He started with a Mother of Runes, which is only relevant in that it makes Meddling Mage a lot more annoying. Of course, he dropped a Mage on turn two. Luckily, my Force was not countered by one of his own. I risked walking into Daze by playing a turn-two Wall of Roots, but it resolved without hesitation. When Adam passed his third turn without playing a man, I made a play that could easily have cost me the game. I ran out Aluren, without having the combo in hand yet. Fish decks rarely play Counterspell, the Wall resolving probably meant he didn’t have a Daze, and me having the Witness in my hand made walking the Aluren into a Force acceptable. I also (incorrectly) deduced that Adam didn’t have creatures in hand, since he had passed the last turn without playing any.

Aluren resolved, and Adam did nothing before untapping and taking his turn, so I thought I had made the correct play. He continued to miss his third land drop for a turn or two, until he decided to tap out on his main phase to play a Meddling Mage.

He didn’t realize Aluren was symmetrical. I did my best not to give anything away. I played Witness in response, getting back Force of Will, and hardcast the Force on Mage. I untapped, drew, and passed back to Adam.

It was either this turn or the next in which he realized his mistake. At the end of that turn, he played a Dark Confidant, a Serra Avenger, and a Jotun Grunt. By then, however, I had drawn into gas, and with him down to only one or two cards in hand, I easily went off before letting him take his turn.

Game 2: Adam began this game exactly like the last one, with a first-turn Mother of Runes and a second-turn Mage. This time, the Mage resolved (naming Aluren), and was quickly joined by a Pithing Needle (on Cavern Harpy). However, none of that nonsense could really pose a threat through my Walls. At some point, I played a Raven Familiar, and paid the echo for it, followed by a Cabal Therapy for Force of Will. Seeing a hand of Stifle, Confidant x2, and Serra Avenger, I passed the turn, to see Adam play a Confidant and the Avenger. This set up nicely for me to sacrifice the Familiar to flashback the Therapy, naming Stifle, and then drop a Pernicious Deed and take out 5 cards for 1. Adam cursed his scouts for not knowing about Deed (I told him he should have read Toad’s article), played the second Confidant, and passed. I played Deed number two, and attempted to kill off the Confidant (his last gas, I had hoped), just to see that he had topdecked a Stifle. He proceeded to flip a land off of Confidant, but draw and play another Confidant, and passed back. At this point I thought I should go for the win. I played Aluren, Raven Familiared into Chain of Vapor, and used the Chain of Vapor trick to replay the Familiar five or six times, plus however many Man-o-Wars and other Familiars I found. However, after looking at probably close to 30 cards, I didn’t find a Cavern Harpy, and I had tapped out and was unable to play the Intuition I had drawn, so I was forced to simply play all four Walls of Roots and pass the turn. Adam drew chaff off the Confidants, but both of my Raven Familiars died during my upkeep since I had recklessly sacrificed all of my lands to the Chain of Vapor (what an awful mistake). However, lucky as I am, I drew Eternal Witness for the turn, which allowed me to win after playing land + Intuition for Cavern Harpies & Man-o-War. At least I had Force of Will backup in case Adam had drawn something relevant.

Round 6: Bennett Toms with RB Vial Goblins

We ID.

Top 8: Phil Stolze (legacyplayer0) with WUB Angel Stompy

Game 1: I lost the die roll, and Phil opened with Chrome Mox and Meddling Mage (naming Aluren) on turn one. It sure sucks when your opponent knows what you’re playing. I Therapied him for Jitte on turn two (thinking that that’s his best way through my walls), but saw only Brainstorm and land. Unfortunately, he used the Brainstorm to find a Sword of Fire and Ice on turn three, which resolved and was successfully equipped to the Mage on turn four. He also had a Swords to Plowshares for my Wall of Roots, which worsened the situation. Suffice it to say that a Mage with Pro: Blue and 6 power is very difficult for Aluren to deal with before sideboarding.

Game 2: This game lasted quite a bit longer, with Phil’s disruption doing its job, but my walls doing their job almost as well. I know that I used a Deed early on to wipe away a Mage or something, although his Knight of the Holy Nimbus lived through it. I also threw this game away.

There was a point at which Phil had a Mage (naming Aluren), a Pithing Needle (naming Cavern Harpy), and two Knights of the Holy Nimbus in play, and I thought I had worked out a way to win. It involved playing Chain of Vapor on Mage, playing Aluren, playing Eternal Witness for Chain of Vapor, and then playing Raven Familiar and Cavern Harpy to find the land I needed to play the Chain of Vapor on the Pithing Needle. I drew the second Pernicious Deed for that turn, and I could have played it and activated it to simply destroy the Mage and the Needle, but instead I went for what I thought was a win. It wasn’t until I was halfway through the plan that I realized Phil could replay the Mage at instant speed, thanks to Aluren, which forced me to take a Force of Will off of the second Familiar trigger, instead of the land I needed. I ended up passing the turn, hoping to go off the next turn.

Phil actually played the Mage during his main phase on the next turn, so I Forced it, but he had drawn another, which resolved (naming Chain of Vapor, I think). This meant that I had to play and activate the Deed the next turn, which unfortunately took all of my combo creatures with it. His Knights lived through this Deed as well, and he later was able to play two Exalted Angels and a Jitte to put some real pressure on me. On the last turn, I was able to play a Wall of Blossoms and bounce it with a Man-o-War, but couldn’t dig into the win. I’m pretty sure I made plenty of mistakes this game, and I certainly earned the loss.

Bonus Section: The Mana Leak Open

Like I said, my memory isn't great, and I didn't take any notes. I can remember what I played against, though.

Day 1:

2-0-0 vs. B/W Pox (Josh Race, Scrumdogg's son)
2-1-0 vs. Iggy Pop
2-1-0 vs. TES (Bryant Cook, wastedlife)
1-1-0 vs. U/B Landstill (Scott Scheurer, overlord95)
2-1-0 vs. Faerie Stompy
ID vs. Enchantress (Zach Tartell, lonelybaritone)

4-0-2 after the swiss, 9-4-0 in games

Top 8: Dave Price (quicksilver) with RGb Survival

He raped me with 4 discard spells in game 1, and I beat him when he didn't draw them in multiples in game 2. Game 3 was amusing because I ended up going into beatdown mode. The critical turn was when I let Spike Feeder die without moving the counters onto a Raven Familiar, opting instead to use the mana to Man-o-War Dave's BoP. Seeing as how Dave later had to activate Baloths three times to stay alive, I think I would have won the game had I grown the Familiar. Hindsight is always 20:20, though.

Day 2:

1-1-1 vs. Train Wreck (Jim)
1-2-0 vs. U/W Landstill
2-0-0 vs. GaT (Ebinsugewa)
1-1-1 vs. Red Death (Jon Rusecki, Mr. Nipples)

1-1-2 drop, 5-4-2 in games

I actually scooped to Jon because I had been paired up against him, and I was out of contention with a draw, anyway.

My day 1 record shows that Aluren can put up decent results against Tendrils decks, which will probably become more popular after this tournament (Congratulations to Wastedlife). Also note that Aluren placed without playing against any Goblins or other aggro decks (depending on how you classify Faerie Stompy). Take that how you will.

All four matches on day 2 took forever, and three of them went to extra turns (in round 2 against Landstill, I lost game 3 on turn 5). I take this to mean that I need very badly to speed up my play with the deck.

I hope you enjoyed the read!

Getsickanddie
03-07-2007, 01:19 AM
Round 3: Trevor (Getsickanddie) with Garv.dec

Game 1: I won the roll once again, and lead with a fetchland. He lead with a fetchland as well, but cracked it for a Taiga and played a Kird Ape. I played a Wall of Roots. He played a Rancor on the Ape, and passed the turn, missing his land drop.

Huh. Who doesn’t attack here? It’s not like he would have risked anything. As it turns out, I would have certainly taken 4 damage, since I didn’t want to lose the Wall to a post-combat land + burn spell.

Of course, the reason I wanted the wall to live is because I had the turn three win. How lucky.

Game 2: He opened with another Kird Ape, which got to hit for some damage this time. I also had another turn two Wall of Roots. Having drawn lands this game, Trevor tapped out on turn three for a Troll Ascetic, which was unfortunate for him since I had another turn three win.

I apologized afterwards, making sure to tell Trevor that Aluren is not designed to go off on turn three and almost never does. I don’t think that made him feel much better, but he did tell me he was happy to see the deck doing well. Thanks for taking the bad beats well, Trevor.



Yeah I fucked up game 1. I should have mulled that hand away but I was in a pretty bad mood having lost the previous round, AND having lost some of my shit. (which was found later.) With that said, Aluren is probably one of the WORST matchups I could have encounted, and I doubt I could have won that matchup without getting really really really lucky.

Congratulations on your performance at GAGG & The Mana Leak. I'm always happy to see forgoten decks brought back.

herbig
03-07-2007, 01:22 AM
Nice job. Its surprising that virtually no one plays the deck here whereas in Europe it is considered tier 1.

Instant speed wins EOT? I may have to check this deck out.

Nightmare
03-07-2007, 07:40 AM
Wow, so aside from me not knowing what Aluren does, game 2 you draw BOTH your 2 total Deed, and then your singleton Witness exactly when you needed it? Seems good. Excellent report and well done these past few weeks!

Obfuscate Freely
03-07-2007, 10:34 AM
Wow, so aside from me not knowing what Aluren does, game 2 you draw BOTH your 2 total Deed, and then your singleton Witness exactly when you needed it? Seems good. Excellent report and well done these past few weeks!

Yeah, I peeled the Witness like a jackass. For what it's worth, I think it would have worked with a Harpy or Familiar, as well.

Of course, had I not been an idiot, I would have left an island in play the previous turn, so I could have simply paid the echo cost on one of the Familiars I already had, and then played land + Intuition for Harpy, Harpy, Witness, and won from there. Basically, my deck managed to stop me from throwing away a game I had absolutely won.

Thanks for the congratulatory words, everyone.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-07-2007, 10:47 AM
Nice job. Its surprising that virtually no one plays the deck here whereas in Europe it is considered tier 1.

Surprisingly, I think Toadimon is the cause of both these phenomena.

So the deck seems solid, although it doesn't seem to have the positive matchup against everything- you must've been playing it wrong. Congrats regardless. I'd still like to see Court Hussar in the deck, though. Or perhaps Coiling Oracle. They've printed cards since Onslaught that didn't suck, regardless of what they think in Europe.

Happy Gilmore
03-07-2007, 11:38 AM
Yeah, I peeled the Witness like a jackass. For what it's worth, I think it would have worked with a Harpy or Familiar, as well.

Of course, had I not been an idiot, I would have left an island in play the previous turn, so I could have simply paid the echo cost on one of the Familiars I already had, and then played land + Intuition for Harpy, Harpy, Witness, and won from there. Basically, my deck managed to stop me from throwing away a game I had absolutely won.

Thanks for the congratulatory words, everyone.

QFT. You should see this guy at our local toury every week. He rips it like Garv, and no I am not refering to his hygiene.

Parcher
03-07-2007, 02:28 PM
Thanks for posting this.

I have been playing this deck for a time now, and honestly love it. It plays like Salvagers in the sort of Control/Combo/aggro role, but is much more amenable to playskill.

Like most who have seriously played the deck, I have found that in many games, the natural sequence of play makes it feel like you cannot lose. In most of the games you do lose, there are often so many lines of play that there is almost always something that you could have done different, if not better, to have changed the circumstances of the loss.

Enough on feelings. I have to agree that the posted list is almost optimized. I run one less Foothills, and add a Chord of Calling, but that could easily change. The fact is, it's quite easy to find the creatures needed by the time you have mana for the Chord. I probably will replace it with a second Witness, as I've yet to run into mana problems outside of LD, and Witness is broken beyond my full comprehension in this deck.

The sideboard is still an issue. I tried running three Vineyards for a while, but they were ass against every deck but Red Death. Goblins and Stax can abuse the mana as well as you, and Deadguy usually runs two Scrolls either main or side. Red Death actually has a lot of trouble with off-color mana, so it loses it's symmetry in that match.

I agree that 3 Disrupt, 4 Blast is correct. While Divert can be backbreaking, I acually think it was better against Control than the Land/Hand destruction decks as an additional counterspell. The fact that Disrupt draws a card is pertinent against Black decks, as cycling through the deck is a neccessary as actual card advantage, if not more. And it of course is much better against IGGy and TES.

The Loaming is awsome against Solidarity, but he has to be in hand, with Aluren on the board. If this happens, you win. The whole key is getting Aluren to resolve without them going off. Once this happens, your manipulation of the stack actually becomes better than theirs, and it's pretty easy to draw into the Shaman. Even if they sneak through some copies of Brain Freeze, a Witness can usually get the Shaman back.

I have yet to feel an actual need for the eighth Wall, so even though I did bring him in against Aggro, I cut him and have not missed it.

Though Toad disagrees, with a Chord still in the deck, I have run one Pirate in the board. I play against a lot of Stax and Deadguy, neither of which are great matchups, though Stax is not difficult pre-board. The fact is, it is often easy to resolve Aluren against these two, but then have problems comboing off. Since they always tap out, the Pirate can slow them down so much that even one or two cycles effectively end the game by slowing either their lock pieces, or beaters down through attrition. It is technically a win-more card in most cases, but against denial decks, Chain becomes sub-optimal, as they will always copy it to bounce Aluren.

Deed I run three of, but two is correct in a mixed meta. I see Stax and Fish quite often, and it's worth it for me.

I have yet to try Null Rod, but then I assume that's a meta call.

My other two slots I run Duress, but haven't been happy with it. I really want to run some other kind of removal, but am unsure of what. Chalice is only a problem at higher than one, but at one shuts down the answer cards. Mage is a bitch if they can back it with a clock. And I really don't want more bounce, so some kind of catch-all like a Disenchant effect. Orim's Thunder would be perfect if we ran Red, as it gets Mage as well.

Regarding the play of the deck, I actually understand Toad's frustration in attemting to explain it now. There are so many possible interactions that it's almost impossible. Like when people ask Gearhart "What do I do in this case?', and his answer is almost always "It depends. I'm awsome".

The other difficulty is not only do you have the bizzare interatctions, and timing issues of the creatures, you also have to make decisions far ahead of normal for such a control-oriented deck. Intuitioning for Therapy may rape a Control player's hand, but if you can't assemble the combo because you did that, they get three or four free turns to rebuild. Or on the opposite end of the spectrum, I've killed three Walls with my own Deed against Aggro just because I saw it was the only way I could ever combo out in that situation.
It's really weird.

Machinus
03-07-2007, 02:44 PM
Thanks for the report!

I have to admit that I was skeptical of this deck previously, but after talking to you about it and watching the results I am much more optimistic about it.

The hippies look great, by the way.

Anusien
03-07-2007, 03:23 PM
For what it's worth, Toad's original maindeck had one different card, he had Chord of Calling. And if this thread goes well, he has some great material I'm trying to get him publish about how to play the deck versus Threshold. He walks through one game in extreme detail, and it's very helpful.

By the way: OMG TURN THREE WIN HOW LAUCKY!

Good job on the victories.

And not to divert the thread, but Court Hussar is bad since it gives them a free removal spell. Normally you play Cavern Harpy, put the CIP ability on the stack, and then then play the creature and bounce it when the CIP ability resolves. This means they need one more removal spell than you have Cavern Harpy/Raven Familiar to break up the combo. If you play Court Hussar, you have to play the Hussar and put the Raven on the stack on top of it, which means they just need to match you in removal/creatures.

Parcher: I know Spencer, who at the time had the most experience with the deck outside of Meandeck, cut the Chord for Witness #2. And I know the deck is insanely hard.

Loam was my idea to beat Tide in case they try to hijack your storm. Seems like a solid idea. If they try to hijack your storm somewhere in the middle while you're going off, you either keep going on top, or let the brain freezes resolve and fight another stack war over Stroke of Genius to set up Witness into Loaming Shaman.

Anyway, I'm glad to see the deck getting respect. Maybe I need to learn how to play the darn thing so I can test with it. I have most of it down, just not all the Chain of Vapor tricks.

lukatron2
03-07-2007, 04:04 PM
Congrats...Uhhh..you see, I have this "friend" that doesn Know exactly how the deck wins... Spike feeder... would anyone be able to give a detailed play by play?...do you ever die from paying one life to return the harpey?...

Machinus
03-07-2007, 04:08 PM
Infinite life, infinite mana, infinite draw/graveyard recursion. Usually people scoop to that.

Vetinari
03-07-2007, 04:27 PM
Congrats...Uhhh..you see, I have this "friend" that doesn Know exactly how the deck wins... Spike feeder... would anyone be able to give a detailed play by play?...do you ever die from paying one life to return the harpey?...
If the Enemy wants to see the actual kill, you use [an arbitrary amount of] Feeder counters to buff your troops and swing for the win, but going "infinite" is usually enough.

Bongo
03-07-2007, 05:08 PM
It plays like Salvagers in the sort of Control/Combo/aggro role, but is much more amenable to playskill.


Comparing Aluren with Salvagers, which do you think is better in a random environment?

Parcher
03-07-2007, 05:26 PM
Comparing Aluren with Salvagers, which do you think is better in a random environment?

Define "Random".

If you mean a lot of bad Aggro decks, than I'd play Salvagers. It's faster, and very few removal spells affect it. It's also less "expected", as even if they don't prepare for Aluren, it's much easier to recognize what the key spells are.

If the meta includes decks that abuse the graveyard, including Loam, TES, Survival, etc., I'd play Aluren. Combo hate+graveyard hate is too much of a liability for Salvagers.

Goblins is a given in any meta, and both decks handle them well.

In a heavy Combo meta, I'd play Aluren. Though with 8+ maindecked discard spells, and an average of a turn quicker win, Salvagers might look better, TES has changed things now. Neither deck is better versus Solidarity. But between IGGy and TES, Force becomes far too powerful against a first or second turn win to ignore.

In general, I'll post my opinion on which of these decks is stronger in pre-and-post board combination in these matchups:

Solidarity: Wash
Goblins: Tiny edge to Salvagers
Threshold: Aluren
Deadguy: Aluren (Swords is much worse for Salvagers)
Red Death: Salvagers
Landstill: Salvagers
Faerie Stompy: Aluren (due to flyers)
Angel Stompy: Tiny edge to Aluren due to Swords.
Enchantress: Haven't a clue
Stax varients: Aluren due to it's ability to lay more permanents
TES: Aluren (Force)
Zoo varients: Salvagers
Iggy Pop: Aluren
Fish: Tiny edge to Aluren
Ichorid/Reanimator: Salvagers
Kobe Loam/DAL: Salvagers
Affinity: Aluren. The speed of Salvagers is relevant, but not as relevant as Stifle, Shrapnel Blast, Needle, and Crypt.

Survival: I left this for last, as there are too many variations. White gives Plow, which is better vs. Salvagers. Discard is better vs. Aluren, as Salvagers can topdeck a win off one card. No version runs much grave hate, which helps Salvagers, but they also don't run instant enchantment removal. I think the crux is that the symmetry in Aluren makes it too risky. If your discard has emptied their hand, they are tapped out, or you have the three key creatures in hand, it's safe to cast it. But overall, I'd have to give Salvagers the edge between these two.

Citrus-God
03-07-2007, 06:42 PM
Congrats...Uhhh..you see, I have this "friend" that doesn Know exactly how the deck wins... Spike feeder... would anyone be able to give a detailed play by play?...do you ever die from paying one life to return the harpey?...

Kinda goes like this. You have Man o War, and Raven Familair to create a chain of cycling effects to find the combo pieces needed to win. For 1 life, you basically see three cards. Then right after that, you play Cavern Harpy, Man o War, and Spike Feeder making your men big as hell, and giving you infinte life. You use Witness, Man o War, and Harpy after that to get infinte access to your graveyard. You win next turn.

jamest
03-07-2007, 07:45 PM
In my opinion, Aluren has been a Tier 1 deck for a while now. It's just that the Legacy format is slow to evolve. I wrote this at TMD like 3 months ago.


But people here play the decks that win in Europe; Aluren... But they don't do nearly as well. There has to be a reason for that.I have yet to see someone in a major US tournament play a good Aluren decklist like Toad's
Props to OB for showing that Aluren can be good in the US too. Now the netdeckers have a reason to play this.

The deck is really customizable. Toad's list is good, but in my own testing, there are a lot of card choice options that are similarly strong.

BTW, against High Tide, I think the best strategy is Cabal Therapy.

Lego
03-07-2007, 09:34 PM
Kinda goes like this. You have Man o War, and Raven Familair to create a chain of cycling effects to find the combo pieces needed to win. For 1 life, you basically see three cards. Then right after that, you play Cavern Harpy, Man o War, and Spike Feeder making your men big as hell, and giving you infinte life. You use Witness, Man o War, and Harpy after that to get infinte access to your graveyard. You win next turn.

DISCLAIMER: When I say "infinite," I understand that infinity doesn't exist in Magic.

You missed Wall of Roots for infinite mana. And that was generally confusing, so I'm going to clean it up a bit. Basically, the whole point of the deck is to survive long enough to get an Aluren into play, and play some combination of creatures before assembling some combination of the following (where you see Cavern Harpy, you can do the cycle once per life that you have, so once you go infinite with life you can go infinite with the cycle):

1) Cavern Harpy + Man of War + Spike Feeder = Infinite Life
2) Cavern Harpy + Raven Familiar = Almost Impulse
3) Cavern Harpy + Man of War + Wall of Blossoms = Draw a card
4) Cavern Harpy + Man of War + Eternal Witness = Regrowth
5) Cavern Harpy + Man of War + Wall of Roots = Add one G
6) Cavern Harpy + Man of War + Spike Feeder + 1 mana = Add a plus one counter to a creature

I probably forgot something, but you'll see that by stringing these combos together you can assemble the first combo, which allows the others to go infinite. If you don't have Cavern Harpy, some combination of Man of War, Wall of Blossoms, and Raven Familiar, maybe Eternal Witness, and Chain of Vapor shenanigans will often do the trick.

At the end of the combo, it's true that you have to pass the turn, but you have infinite life, a whole field of infinitely large dudes, and a bunch of Forces in hand with blue spells to pitch.

Zach Tartell
03-07-2007, 11:55 PM
[QUOTE=Parcher;115145Enchantress: Haven't a clue. [/QUOTE]

Neither do I, but I was sweating bullets until friendly Phil Stolz was able to beat down Alix. Shit's scarry looking on paper. I'd say that the ability to combo out quicker makes salvagers a better combo. And that they don't have to pass the turn. But both decks lose to Null chamber on their win (either cavern harpy or pyrite spell bomb), but both (should) run deed as a back up. I guess that null chamber + karmic justice is pretty good to sit back with.

Machinus
03-08-2007, 01:45 AM
Stax varients: Aluren due to it's ability to lay more permanents

http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Trinisphere.jpg

Lukas Preuss
03-08-2007, 04:15 AM
Nice job. Its surprising that virtually no one plays the deck here whereas in Europe it is considered tier 1.

Actually, I have never seen someone talk about Aluren as tier 1 in any European Legacy tournament that I've been to or heard of. If Toad says so, he is most definitely exaggerating... :)

Parcher
03-08-2007, 09:39 AM
http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Trinisphere.jpg

As I mentioned earlier, now I see why Toad gets so frustrated.

If you can't Force a Trinisphere, or bounce it facing a thirty turn clock, you shouldn't play Aluren. Plus, with their non-existant draw engine, Stax often has difficulty even getting one to use.

Plus the fact that Trinishpere is the only relevant threat pre-board. Chalice needs multiples at different costs to be effective. Without a need for discard, the deck has multiple redundant creatures to sac for Smokestack, and runs 21 lands. Wasteland is easily played around with 6-7 basics and 4 Wall of Roots.

Regardless of all that, paying three for a creature, and beating down Stax is just as viable considering they run virtualy no blockers anyway. It's the one time I'm glad to run 1 and 2 power creatures. Even Ensnaring Bridge does nothing.

Post-board things get worse, but considering the prior lengthy diatribe on how Triisphere is just the nutz in this match, and how Aluren can never beat it in a million years cuz Stax will lay a first turn Trini and just pwn it, I'll ignore the sideboarding. [/sarcasm]

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-08-2007, 10:17 AM
As I mentioned earlier, now I see why Toad gets so frustrated.

If you can't Force a Trinisphere, or bounce it facing a thirty turn clock, you shouldn't play Aluren. Plus, with their non-existant draw engine, Stax often has difficulty even getting one to use.

Plus the fact that Trinishpere is the only relevant threat pre-board. Chalice needs multiples at different costs to be effective. Without a need for discard, the deck has multiple redundant creatures to sac for Smokestack, and runs 21 lands. Wasteland is easily played around with 6-7 basics and 4 Wall of Roots.

Regardless of all that, paying three for a creature, and beating down Stax is just as viable considering they run virtualy no blockers anyway. It's the one time I'm glad to run 1 and 2 power creatures. Even Ensnaring Bridge does nothing.

Post-board things get worse, but considering the prior lengthy diatribe on how Triisphere is just the nutz in this match, and how Aluren can never beat it in a million years cuz Stax will lay a first turn Trini and just pwn it, I'll ignore the sideboarding. [/sarcasm]



So, you've never tested the matchup, then.

Parcher
03-08-2007, 10:21 AM
So, you've never tested the matchup, then.

Since I know you haven't the first clue about the matchup yourself, is this an attempt to derail the thread, or bait me?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-08-2007, 10:29 AM
And not to divert the thread, but Court Hussar is bad since it gives them a free removal spell. Normally you play Cavern Harpy, put the CIP ability on the stack, and then then play the creature and bounce it when the CIP ability resolves. This means they need one more removal spell than you have Cavern Harpy/Raven Familiar to break up the combo. If you play Court Hussar, you have to play the Hussar and put the Raven on the stack on top of it, which means they just need to match you in removal/creatures.

I've heard this argument, but it's bad. This is like saying that could Madness play a 5th-8th Wild Mongrel, but the new one didn't change colors, that it was bad, because you play Wild Mongrel to get around Story Circle. Or saying that could Goblins play another handful of Piledrivers, but without pro-Blue, you shouldn't do it because the reason you play Piledriver is to not get blocked by Meddling Mages. You are focusing on a triviality. If you're playing 8 Raven Familiars, it shouldn't matter that much even if they do kill one; another shouldn't be hard to find since you still get the ability. And Court Hussar actually sticks around to block in the course of normal play.

kirdape3
03-08-2007, 10:53 AM
I'm not sure that there's an efficient cut for Court Hussar. While having more Impulses is not bad, the walls do something that Hussar generally can't - that is, block and live to tell about it. The two or so extra turns that a Wall of Roots can buy you is absolutely enormous.

etrigan
03-08-2007, 11:27 AM
At the end of the combo, it's true that you have to pass the turn, but you have infinite life, a whole field of infinitely large dudes, and a bunch of Forces in hand with blue spells to pitch.

What happened to the Maggot Carrier kill? Why has that fallen out of favor? It lets you kill without passing the turn. Is it considered unneccessary now?

IndyTerminator
03-08-2007, 12:31 PM
The Maggot Carrier kill is mainly not used because that card is dead until you go off. Toad tried to build the deck so that no card was dead without Aluren.

Eldariel
03-08-2007, 02:02 PM
http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Trinisphere.jpg

That also stops Salvagers, so it's rather trivial in that regard. And Maggot Carrier is unnecessary. You have as much life as you want, lots of big guys and as many Forces as you want, no deck in the format can win through that. Toad tried to find something and failed.

Vetinari
03-08-2007, 07:25 PM
And Court Hussar actually sticks around to block in the course of normal play.
To do that one would have to splash white and I dare say adding another colour is not exactly a "trivial" matter.

Lego
03-09-2007, 12:32 AM
That also stops Salvagers, so it's rather trivial in that regard. And Maggot Carrier is unnecessary. You have as much life as you want, lots of big guys and as many Forces as you want, no deck in the format can win through that. Toad tried to find something and failed.

What the heck happens in the Aluren mirror match? It's quite possibly worse than the Solidarity mirror match. So strange.

Vetinari
03-09-2007, 02:13 AM
What the heck happens in the Aluren mirror match? It's quite possibly worse than the Solidarity mirror match. So strange.
Overcosted creature beatdown (the right play is boarding Alurens out).

Nightmare
03-09-2007, 07:43 AM
Overcosted creature beatdown (the right play is boarding Alurens out).With 7 Walls in the MD, this is probably a pretty funny sight.

etrigan
03-09-2007, 10:35 AM
With 7 Walls in the MD, this is probably a pretty funny sight.

At least Raven Familiars have flying.

Lego
03-10-2007, 12:06 AM
At least Raven Familiars have flying.

They also happen to have more toughness than power though, so it's pretty easy to clog things up.

I think getting Man-o'-War advantage is the key to winning this one.

JZ23
03-12-2007, 06:07 AM
What the heck happens in the Aluren mirror match? It's quite possibly worse than the Solidarity mirror match. So strange.

I don't think anything is worse than Solidarity! I've actually played the Aluren mirror in tourneys, but luckily my build was better vs. the mirror.

Citrus-God
03-12-2007, 10:16 AM
I don't think anything is worse than Solidarity! I've actually played the Aluren mirror in tourneys, but luckily my build was better vs. the mirror.

Poor Joe Tsuchida... he lost his trust with the french after losing the mirror, and scrubbed out of Gen Con with Aluren...

IMO, think the right play is to side in a playset of Extracts, Tinker, and DSC for the mirror. You can remove their win conditions like Spike Feeder, while going beatdown with DSC via Tinker. Use your Raven Familiars to cycle through your deck via Aluren et Cavern Harpy to find your win other win conditions. So what do you say? Merci beaucoup Anti American.

EDIT. I was serious about the extracts if Aluren ever becomes big...

Nightmare
03-12-2007, 10:18 AM
They also happen to have more toughness than power though, so it's pretty easy to clog things up.

I think getting Man-o'-War advantage is the key to winning this one.
That sounds dangerously close to Minotaur Advantage.

Lego
03-12-2007, 02:01 PM
That sounds dangerously close to Minotaur Advantage.

No no, I was just speculating, I promise. See, I didn't even capitalize advantage.

Toad
03-16-2007, 02:47 PM
The Mirror match is all about Man-O'War and Cabal Therapy for creature control and Brainstorm for protection against Cabal Therapy. Having creatures in the sideboard is good for that.

hi-val
03-16-2007, 04:27 PM
The Mirror match is all about Man-O'War and Cabal Therapy for creature control and Brainstorm for protection against Cabal Therapy. Having creatures in the sideboard is good for that.

You side out Alurens, correct? I remember that you had Meloku on your board at one point for anti-mirror match tech.

Lego
03-17-2007, 11:37 AM
You side out Alurens, correct? I remember that you had Meloku on your board at one point for anti-mirror match tech.

There had better be some other reason for this Meloku as well, because sideboarding for the Aluren mirro match seems like a terrible idea.

Toad
03-23-2007, 05:51 AM
You usually side out Alurens. If Aluren lands, the one with Harpy advantage wins, and that is usually the one going off in response of the other, so keeping Alurens is not a good idea.

I had 1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror in my SB long ago for a tournament, that is correct. A lot of Alurens were expected at that tournament (10% of the field) and it is also good against Threshold. It is very uneeded in normal metagames though, since the mirror is an oddity and Threshold is a cakewalk without him.

TheRock
03-23-2007, 08:55 AM
The real thing Aluren doesn't have to make it a true "control" deck is some sort of physical card-draw. That's the missing piece that would let you play the deck like a control engine. We could get into philosophy here, but it's not that important.

Adding in Hussars could be nice, but it really doesn't make sense when the entire idea of a control deck is to "control" turns 1 through 3 and it's effect does something on turn 4 (outside of blocking which every creature in your deck does a better job of doing). Besides, there are many times when you're running Essence Warden where you don't need Familiar at all. You just swing with that Harpy FTW or take your good old time.

Besides, card draw in the mirror match is just nasty.

I really have to get on writing some stuff for this deck...