[Article] Unlocking Legacy - Blue-Based Control: Don't

[Anusien]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13817.html

Several months later, I admit Anwar was right.

[URABAHN]

Very nice article, but I would've like to hear more on the following points:

Why does Blue-Based Control have problems with combo?

Why does Blue-Based Control have problems with Goblins?

How does it fare against non-Threshold Aggro decks?

AnwarA101 were discussing this the other night and we agree that if you're going to play control in Legacy, it has to be board control, but then you leave yourself susceptible to combo decks. Elias, running Tog on Day 2 ran 4 maindeck Engineered Plague because he knew Goblins was not a very good matchup. That's 4 more cards that are just about worthless in the combo matchup. Because Legacy is heavily creature-based, you're going to see the occasional Landstill, Tog, or MUC deck make the Top 8 because they are very good at destroying creatures. Like the Washington Redskins, those decks will not be perennial playoff contenders because they spend too many slots on draw and board control (Free Agency :smile:) and have weak game against combo.

[C.P.]

Nice article.

MUC was viable, before they made danmed Extirpate. I suddenly felt like not playing blue control after i saw the card.....:rolleyes:

[Peter_Rotten]

I believe that Blue Based control is only going to become harder and harder to construct and play. Why? Because WotC hates Counterspell. Look at some of the Counter destroying mechanics they have created: (I haven't read the article yet, so I apologize if any of this is addressed there)

Storm - Wing Shards and FU Tog. Can't counter the win conditions? Not playing Stifle? Lose.

Leyline - obviously not as strong as Storm but more uncounterable BS

Split Second - Possibly the worst offender. It is currently not as strong in the meta as Storm since the cards with Split Second aren't as objectively powerful. But imagine something like a good drain life with Split Sec. or - God forbid - a good Storm spell with Spilt Second.

Dredge - hey, counter me! I just keep coming back.

And then we, of course, deal with other uncounterable stuff like Wasteland and Manlands. edit - Slay just reminded me of stuff like Lackey and Vial.

[Slay]

I believe that Blue Based control is only going to become harder and harder to construct and play. Why? Because WotC hates Counterspell. Look at some of the Counter destroying mechanics they have created: (I haven't read the article yet, so I apologize if any of this is addressed there)

Storm - Wing Shards and FU Tog. Can't counter the win conditions? Not playing Stifle? Lose.

Leyline - obviously not as strong as Storm but more uncounterable BS

Split Second - Possibly the worst offender. It is currently not as strong in the meta as Storm since the cards with Split Second aren't as objectively powerful. But imagine something like a good drain life with Split Sec. or - God forbid - a good Storm spell with Spilt Second.

Dredge - hey, counter me! I just keep coming back.

And then we, of course, deal with other uncounterable stuff like Wasteland and Manlands.

That's only part of the reason, I feel. BBS was good back when we played Dryad in Gro and Survival and Enchantresses. And by 'good', I mean playable. But now we've got Goblin Lackey, Nimble Mongoose, Aether Vial. And Xantid Swarm all showing up in the top decks. You either have to force or die because turn 1 isn't going to be a Birds of Paradise.
-Slay

[barron]

I initially quit the game 8 years ago and the first thing I did when I got back into the game last was quit anytype of blue control, which was usually all I ran. I think there is room for new control decks, but I think black is the new blue for them; it's more proactive and has decent board control.

[scrumdogg]

I believe that Blue Based control is only going to become harder and harder to construct and play. Why? Because WotC hates Counterspell. Look at some of the Counter destroying mechanics they have created: (I haven't read the article yet, so I apologize if any of this is addressed there)

Storm - Wing Shards and FU Tog. Can't counter the win conditions? Not playing Stifle? Lose.

Leyline - obviously not as strong as Storm but more uncounterable BS

Split Second - Possibly the worst offender. It is currently not as strong in the meta as Storm since the cards with Split Second aren't as objectively powerful. But imagine something like a good drain life with Split Sec. or - God forbid - a good Storm spell with Spilt Second.

Dredge - hey, counter me! I just keep coming back.

And then we, of course, deal with other uncounterable stuff like Wasteland and Manlands. edit - Slay just reminded me of stuff like Lackey and Vial.

WOTC doesn't hate the counterspell, on the contrary, they love it. Look at the fact they keep printing new ones (and some good ones - see Remand). They always keep counterspells of some sort in T2 & therefore Extended (or try). The fact is they screwed up & printed so many good counterspells that they had to try mechanics like Storm & Split Second & Dredge & Aether Vial to get around what they've already printed. Of course, blue counter mates with things like Storm & we get Solidarity....and the rest of us non-blue, non-Storm, non-Goblin people lose...again. Credit to Anusien for admitting he may not have been 100% correct, all the time, on something, sorta.

[Finn]

Hey dude, good read and analysis. I feel the same way about the place counterspells occupy in Legacy. I recall that up until recently, going control meant heavy blue. In fact, my best friend and playtest partner used to say things like "That's a good idea for a Green deck. I want to make it. What deck are the Tropical Islands and FoWs in right now?" That [correct] attitude pissed me off for many years. I am pleased that blue has been takin' it in the tailpipe for awhile now. Most of the stuff able to get around counters is useful in certain situations, but I am concerned about the blank check I think Wizards has written for Storm. Combo used to require a myriad of cogs, but not any more. Just playing ANY spell will do, so long as it is mana acceleration, draw or search. For the moment, a variety of defenses is keeping these decks well in check, but that means that all other kinds of combo are outclassed, and essentially dead indefinitely.

[Ta Jugs]

Heh Heh Kyle DArgan. Kyle's last name sounds stupid now.

[Dr. Teeth]

its DORGAN:mad:

[Aggro_zombies]

I refuse to believe it! Blue control can work in Legacy, just not in any familiar form and certainly not monocolored.

It's funny, though, I was also working on an article (not going to finish it until after I see what comes out of Columbus, though) on why pure, Landstill or BBS-style control decks have such a hard time in Legacy. My conclusion was, as previously stated, that the format is too ploarized right now for blue control to be able to mount an effective defense against both combo and aggro, simply because they require totally different suites of cards to be dealt with. You either have to resort to a transformational sideboard and liberal use of prayer, or a "Can do everything, but excels at nothing" deck that will have meh matchups against everything. My searches for a viable control deck for this format, specifically one that isn't aggro control and runs at least a hint of blue, have led me to settle on Counterbalance as a generally all-around useful card that circumvents a lot of the problems P_R pointed out. Of course, to prove your point, Counterbalance decks do need a considerable amount of board control to mop up broken turn-one plays, but it's not something that an excssive number of slots need to go into. Draw-Go decks, like you said, are things of the past and are utterly unplayable in this format (as I discovered when first getting into it). However, a control deck doesn't need to be NuthinButBoardSweepers.dec to be competitive, imo.

Granted, aggro-control is still good and doesn't require one to bend over backwards or jump through hoops to make it work, but in my case it's really a matter of individual taste. I <3 control and I <3 Draw-Go like nobody's business, so of course I'm biased towards them. Still, very good article. I may have to rip you off a bit when revising mine later (don't worry, I'll properly cite my sources :tongue:).

[dahcmai]

Here's further proof Wizards hates Counterspell.

I was playing a Blue based control I made just for laughs. It was basically all counters with 4 stifles, 2 powder kegs, and using Academy Ruins and Aeliopile (yes! Fallen Empires FTW!) for the win condition. I did mention it was for laughs.

Anyway, I play better than your average bear and tore through 10 people in the agonizing death that is Aeliopile. I end up in the top and then proceed to bash my way into the finals (go Aeliopile go!).

The amusing part was somehow another very good player took a standard type 2 deck into it with me. Don't ask me how he beat Goblins and a Solidarity deck with it, but he pulled it off. I guess it was luck of the stupid people with bad decks day.

He forecasts some crap and makes a token. Crap. I'm screwed. I can't do anything about it. I stifle it a few times trying to buy time. Killing someone with Aeliopile is not the fastest thing in the world. I lose to a Standard deck. Oh the humiliation.

Stupid forecast ruined my domination with Aeliopile. I was so happy. I beat the hell out of a few good decks and was going to really rub it in too. Life is soo not fair.

[hi-val]

Excellent article!

I think that the title was integral to its success, and such brilliance in titling could have only come from yours truly. Though I am disappointed that I didn't get the props for making the article snap, I am happy that it has turned out well due to my silent assistance.

[Pinder]

For those of you scratching your head on Gatherer like I was, the card name is actually Aeolipile.

[Anusien]

For those of you scratching your head on Gatherer like I was, the card name is actually Aeolipile.
The rest of us know what it does, because it's one of a handful of Fallen Empires cards that are playable for the Homelandicapped formats. Colorless removal = tech.

[chmoddity]

Wow, Dahcmai brings up Aholepile. Love it. Secret deck tech from 1994 --> 4 Aeolipile, 1 Chaos Orb, 4 Argivian Archaeologist, 4 Animate Dead, 2 Skull of Orm --> ownage.

Oh. Sry, Anusien. I'm done reminescing. You can have your thread back now.

[Anusien]

One thing that was brought up over in TMD is the true secret to how the modern Psychatog builds, like Kyle's, actually won. The late game draw was almost never part of it (and I hated to cast Fact or Fiction, even when it got me ridiculous splits). The trick is to just have insane board-control components. As Kyle put it, he beat Threshold by just playing an insane 3-drop. Vedalken Shackles and Pernicious Deed can flat-out win games against Threshold. Is there somethign similar (aside from maindeck Plague) that beats on Goblins similarly?

[Finn]

Plenty.

Depends on the deck...
Pernicious Deed, since it also takes out Vials (and Goblins' ability to quickly rebuild with it)
Jitte on a Troll is pretty much game.
Humility

None of this should be news, though.

[Happy Gilmore]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13817.html

Several months later, I admit Anwar was right.

After reading the article I think the deck you are looking for is Red Death. Once again Anwar might be your solution.

A good read, especially if your not familiar with the format.

[Anusien]

Nah, I'm not impressed with Red Death. Right now the green creatures available to the format are very exciting. There are very few problems that curving into Loxodon Hierarch and Iwamori don't solve.

[AnwarA101]

Nah, I'm not impressed with Red Death.

Maybe you weren't really impressed with success anyway.

[Anusien]

Maybe you weren't really impressed with success anyway.
If I was, I'd just play Goblins in the first place.

Red Death is solid, and I respect that it can do what so many decks can't... you know, beat Goblins. I just think there's something stronger out there.

[JACO]

One thing that was brought up over in TMD is the true secret to how the modern Psychatog builds, like Kyle's, actually won. The late game draw was almost never part of it (and I hated to cast Fact or Fiction, even when it got me ridiculous splits). The trick is to just have insane board-control components. As Kyle put it, he beat Threshold by just playing an insane 3-drop. Vedalken Shackles and Pernicious Deed can flat-out win games against Threshold. Is there somethign similar (aside from maindeck Plague) that beats on Goblins similarly?
This is why those builds of Psychatog would suck at a Grand Prix level tournament. What do you need to spend 4 mana, all at once, for to draw 2-3 cards? Fact or Fiction is totally unneccessary in Psychatog with the advent of Life From the Loam, and the fact that Intuition is legal. Accumulated Knowledge, Deep Analysis, and Life From the Loam mean you can spread your draws out over the course of turns and when you have free mana, and further your board/graveyard position, pushing you closer towards inevitability.

The card that beats on Goblins in Dredge-A-Tog, aside from Engineered Plague, is Darkblast. If your opponent leads with AEther Vial, that is usually going to provide you enough time to get into the game. The way they put pressure on the 'Tog player is with the Lackey + expensive guys draw. And you know what? If you play 3 Darkblast + 4 Force of Will main (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=25226.msg385773#msg385773), you have more answers to Goblin Lackey on the first turn than they have chances to drop a first turn Lackey. Dorgan's version of 'Tog could never reliably answer Goblins in a large tournament where it's 30% of the field, because he doesn't have the speed, or the right answers, to those kind of threats. His deck was built for a combo and Threshold laced (read: non Goblins) tournament, and that's why he succeeded, so more power to him for properly building his deck for what he was going to play against.