Orim's chant vs. Brainfreeze

[Radley]

What if my opponent has 10 storm count then I cast an orim's chant and in response to that my opponent cast more spells then I cast another orim's chant when my opponent's storm count is at +6 more, In response my opponent cast more instant spells then stopped at +5 more storm count. What would be my opponents storm count when brainfreeze resolves?

[URABAHN]

What if my opponent has 10 storm count then I cast an orim's chant and in response to that my opponent cast more spells then I cast another orim's chant when my opponent's storm count is at +6 more, In response my opponent cast more instant spells then stopped at +5 more storm count. What would be my opponents storm count when brainfreeze resolves?

10 spells + 1 Orim's Chant + 6 more spells + 1 Orim's Chant + 5 more spells

At what point in this series did your opponent cast Brain Freeze?

[Radley]

The last spell. Hmm.. how about if I cast orim's chant in response to brainfreeze?

So by the time everything resolves, the orim's chant doesn't matter?

[xsockmonkeyx]

If you are casting Chant in response to Brain Freeze then the Freeze has already been played. Chant does nothing to stop a spell that has already been played, but it will add to the storm count.

[Radley]

So orim's chant lock isn't really that tough then?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Depends on what you mean by tough. Chantlock isnt nearly as tough for instant speed combo like Solidarity as it is for sorcery speed combo like Spring Tide.

[Radley]

Depends on what you mean by tough. Chantlock isnt nearly as tough for instant speed combo like Solidarity as it is for sorcery speed combo like Spring Tide.

Ok, thanks. Just turned me off to play Chant lock :laugh: Which is a good thing.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Rule of thumb: if a deck has Scepter in it then its probably kinda janky. Sorry Hanni.:tongue:

[MathMan]

If your opponent is playing Resets, then Chant works best during your own upkeep....

[Raider Bob]

Teferi/Chant Lock is fun.

[Radley]

Teferi/Chant Lock is fun.

Just for fun though because teferi costs too much.

[Cavius The Great]

Isn't the whole point of Orim's Chant is to cast it at the beginning of your opponent's turn so he can't cast spells? Why on earth would you cast this as your second to last spell? I think you're confusing the power of Orim's Chant with Stifle and Trickbind.

[Judge_Julez]

Orim's chant is NOT a counterspell;
(this is repeated to L0 judgelings time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time)

Once spells are on the stack; you can't stop them being played as they are ALREADY ON the stack. (Although Voidslime and Stifle have a jolly good attempt

[Tacosnape]

Isn't the whole point of Orim's Chant is to cast it at the beginning of your opponent's turn so he can't cast spells?

Sometimes, but sometimes not. I'll very often throw the Chant in response to the first Meditate or Reset in hopes of taking two or three spells out with it. More often than not they have the Force, but sometimes it's nice.

[Radley]

Isn't the whole point of Orim's Chant is to cast it at the beginning of your opponent's turn so he can't cast spells? Why on earth would you cast this as your second to last spell? I think you're confusing the power of Orim's Chant with Stifle and Trickbind.

Useless against solidarity decks.

tacosnape - Good idea, although it's better to disrupt a combo if it's near the end.

I'm not confused. I'm already clear about what Orim's chant so stop flaming, heck this part of forum is card interactions and questions so stop making me look more stupid :laugh:

[Taurelin]

it's better to disrupt a combo if it's near the end.


Again, Solidarity is an exception to the rule. It's better to disrupt the Solidarity man after the first High Tide / when he's getting short on resources mid-combo than near the end when he has 17 cards in his hand (including x FoWs and y Remands and z Twincasts) and 55 mana in his pool. :smile:

[Tacosnape]

Again, Solidarity is an exception to the rule. It's better to disrupt the Solidarity man after the first High Tide / when he's getting short on resources mid-combo than near the end when he has 17 cards in his hand (including x FoWs and y Remands and z Twincasts) and 55 mana in his pool. :smile:

QFT. Once Solidarity resolves a Meditate the most productive thing you can do with Orim's Chant is to find a nearby tophat and try to toss the Orim's Chant into it to amuse yourself while your opponent finishes his combo.

I find I have the best luck throwing this in response to either the first Meditate or the first Untap spell.

[Versus]

So Orim's Chant real power here is basically to be cast durring their upkeep and slowing them dow a turn from going off, yes?

What about TES and Belcher going for EtW tokens? EtW and Tendrils are Sorceries, wouldn't casting Chant durring the middle or (hopefully) towards the end of their Storm count stop them from adding spells to the stack thus getting less Goblins and/or less impact with Tendrils?

[ForceofWill]

Holy necro batman. and yes casting chant in responce to a mana spell like dark ritual or lions eye diamond would stop them.

[Versus]

Sorry for bringing up old threads. I didn't want to make a pain of myself making too many new ones.

So using Chant agaisnt combo is basically a guessing game. You need to determine the weakest link in the chain and disrupt it at that point.

Would you say, and this would be a very general as I only know how combo decks work by reading their primers and have never actually seen them played, that countering a mana source is the safer play? Obviously waiting too long I won't be able to counter the Storm count from a Tendrils/ETW.

[Jak]

Sorry for bringing up old threads. I didn't want to make a pain of myself making too many new ones.

So using Chant agaisnt combo is basically a guessing game. You need to determine the weakest link in the chain and disrupt it at that point.

Would you say, and this would be a very general as I only know how combo decks work by reading their primers and have never actually seen them played, that countering a mana source is the safer play? Obviously waiting too long I won't be able to counter the Storm count from a Tendrils/ETW.

It really depends on the Storm deck. Like say they go for IGGy. Then after they play the mana sources they got back, play Chant. If you are fearful of EtW and you have no answers, Chant early, before they reach 4 mana. If it is a deck like Glimpse, it is much easier. They probably won't tendrils unless they have 9 storm, so count storm and once they get there, chant. Chant does nothing against Solidarity, they will just go off in response.

[Versus]

Awesome. That's just what I was looking to know. I live in NY so I figured I would play in one of the Legacy events at Worlds. Not even knowing how/when they go off was gonna be a problem. I realize it will all depend on the scenario, but knowing the basics is a step in the right direction.

Let me ask you this. Is Thorn of Amythest a better solution to a deck weak against Combo or is Chant the way to go in your opinion?

[Lego]

Chant does nothing against Solidarity, they will just go off in response.

Not that it's particularly relevant at this point, but Chant can be useful against Solidarity as a kind of counterspell. Wait for a key card, usually either Reset with them tapped out, or Meditate when they're low on cards, and Chant in response. Now Chant has to resolve before that card resolves, and if it does, they're stalled out. They have to have Force, Remand, or Twincast (or another relevant spell to continue going off, at which point they can counter your Chant later)... often times they'll have one of those answers, but sometimes they won't.


Let me ask you this. Is Thorn of Amythest a better solution to a deck weak against Combo or is Chant the way to go in your opinion?

This is hard to say in a vacuum. It depends on which deck you're playing, and which you're hoping to do better against. TES, for instance, will often lead with Chant/Abeyance if they expect you to play it as well, so Thorn is probably immediately better there. Belcher can sometimes go off on turn 1, so Chant might be better here, especially if you have no other answers to EtW. Thorn is incredibly crippling to them though, so if you have basically any other answers to get you to turn 2, Thorn is probably the right choice here as well. I don't know enough about Iggy to make a call there. But it also depends a lot on what you're playing.

[Versus]

I'm playing Death and Taxes. The only other thing that could get me to turn two would be Mana Tithe I suppose, but that's only if these combos are using the exact amount of mana to cast their spells and make their Storm counts. I would imagine they always have at least :1: available at any time, right?

I do have a total of 3 True Believers between the MD and SB to stop Tendrils/Belcher as well as Abolish for Charbelcher itself.

I guess that would be about it. The pro-red Knights and Tivador could stop some Goblins, but I'm not really sure how many Gobo's an EtW player would generate. Would it depend on the turn they go off?

I PM'd Finn concerning the use of Thorn over Chant and he said that Thorn would be a fine replacement, but that was after I had commented on already owning a playset of Thorns and not having $80 to shell out for Chants.

I guess what it comes down to is I'd rather pay the $80 and play with the most optimal SB then cheap out. I'm just not sure what the optimal choice is.

[Soto]

A Belcher player can make up to 16 token turn one (8 cards on the draw), but usually it looks more like 8-10.

[Versus]

A Belcher player can make up to 16 token turn one (8 cards on the draw), but usually it looks more like 8-10.

So even if I had one blocker with 10 tokens generated I'd be at 11 life. If I could get another blocker next turn I'd be at 4. Even one more on turn 3 and that's enough to kill me. Even if I could stabalize with Jitte lets say, they would be working on a second EtW.

[TrialByFire]

Against TES or belcher, usually the best use of chant is in resp to the ritual spells. That way they mana burn and waste the rituals

[APriestOfGix]

Against TES or Belcher, you want to wait long enough they can't just WIN next turn (they have to burn mana, or tutors) but also so they arn't casting the winning spell.

Against TES the best time is when they cast a tutor, Wish, or Tutor are the Prime times to Chant.

Belcher, i would cast on ANY spell that would give them 7 or more mana, a Wish (for EtW) or if you think they are EtWing, and have a storm count you can't handle before you die.

[Versus]

I'm taking this all down! I wish I had first hand experience, but this will give a fighting chance. Thanks guys, much appreciated.

I guess there's no way to judge whether or not Chant will be superior to Thorn without knowing how much and how fast the combo decks I'll face will be. Having the ability to Chant first turn can be a poweful play, but may only stall the inevitable. If I can last long enough to cast a Thorn, it seems like it would be the more permanent of solutions and definitely more troublesome for the other side of the table.