[Discussion] Meddling Mage, what do you name?

[Raider Bob]

So I have been looking at deck lists/Play testing/yadda yadda yadda and have come to the conclusion that Meddling Mage in the wrong hands is just funny, but in the right hands is amazing. So that being said what do you play Mage against and what do you name when you play against said deck.


Solidarity - ???
Iggy Pop - ???
Epic Storm - ???
Goblins -???
Landstill - ???
Red Death - ???
Survival - ???
NQG Red - ???
NQG White - ???
Trainwreck - ???
Affinity - ???
Burning Tog - ???
Life From the Loam - ???
B/W Confidant - ???

I know some of the decks are like you wouldn't and some are like its a must so put in your two cents on the decklists and share some knowledge. Add additional decklists if you see something at your events a lot that would warrent mentioning.

[Volt]

Here are a few. I've given multiple answers, in order of priority.

Solidarity (mono-blue): High Tide, Cunning Wish
Iggy Pop: Tendrils of Agony, Echoing Truth
TES: Empty the Warrens, Tendrils of Agony, Burning Wish
Affinity: Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager

For many of the decks you listed, the answers aren't quite so cut and dried (or I'm just not sure of the correct answers). In general, some things you might want to name:

Survival of the Fittest
Swords to Plowshares
Mass removal spells (i.e. Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God, etc.)
Win conditions (especially if your opponent isn't playing very many of them)

[Zach Tartell]

Goblins -???


My favorite is how Phil Stolze (3 color Angel Stompy) got a turn one meddling mage naming high tide against Gearhart, then gearhart went: mountain, lackey, go.

Hilarious

[Finn]

A lot of this depends on the game state. And I might name a different card against something like Solidarity depending on if I have another Mage in hand. Still this is a good exercise.

Enchantress?
Aluren?

These are decks that the card would certainly come in against. What about thaem?

[Volt]

A lot of this depends on the game state. And I might name a different card against something like Solidarity depending on if I have another Mage in hand. Still this is a good exercise.

Enchantress?
Aluren?

These are decks that the card would certainly come in against. What about thaem?

Aluren: Man O'War, Aluren
Enchantress: um... win conditions?

[scrumdogg]

The problem is that what you name is often dependent on A) what else you are playing B) the specific point in the matchup

Solidarity - ??? If I have True Believer (and Aether Vial) :cool:, I am going to name Cunning Wish every time. If I am running a deck with counter back up, I am probably going to name either High Tide (if I get MM Turn 2) or some combo of Reset/Meditate/Brain Freeze & try to benefit from their High Tide.
Iggy Pop - ??? Tendrils of Agony seems like the obvious call. In testing I usually name Massacre with the second Mage just in case they maindeck it (and definitely call that after boarding).
Epic Storm - ??? Good luck choosing, if you name one win condition they sodomize you with the other. I need to test more versus this deck but to date I have been naming Burning Wish. Opinions sought.....
Goblins -??? Do they have Aether Vial down already? No? Name that & make them kill Meddling Speedbump. Do they have Vial already, damn? Do they have Warchief down? No? Make them Vial it in & either keep the Vial at 3, kill Meddling Speedbump or risk not Vialing in Ringleader/SGC to keep a Warchief down (since you're probably running STP in a deck with MM)
Landstill - ??? Depends on the rest of your deck, but Wrath of God always worked fairly well for me. Forces them to STP MM or wait til Vengeance.
Red Death - ??? At what point in the game? Are you more aggro or more control? Creature based or counters? So many choices & they really don't matter much because MM is going eat a Bolt at some point anyway.
Survival - ??? SotF if they don't have it yet
NQG Red - ??? What do you fear at that point? Their Bolts? The Fledgling Dragon? The Mana Bear?
NQG White - ??? My first inclination is either Mystic Enforcer or Force of Will depending on whether I am running FoW or not.
Trainwreck - ??? it so doesn't matter :cool:
Affinity - ??? Disciple of the Vault....make them kill you fairly in combat, if you can drop a second & keep them off Cranial Plating, that is good also.
Burning Tog - ??? Flametongue Kavu...stupid card....
Life From the Loam - ??? Aggro Loam or Assault Loam? Terravore or LftL? Lftl or Devastating Dreams? How about the versions running Burning Wish? Do you have Black? Can you Extirpate? So many variables...
B/W Confidant - ??? Are you more worried about your hand (Hymn) or your permanents (Vindicate?)

[Volt]

Epic Storm - ??? Good luck choosing, if you name one win condition they sodomize you with the other. I need to test more versus this deck but to date I have been naming Burning Wish. Opinions sought.....

Yeah, the correct answer is either Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens. I've had good success by naming the latter with my first Mage. It basically turns their deck into a suboptimal version of Iggy Pop. They can still kill you with Tendrils, but it's kinda hard for them to build up the necessary storm count to kill you with one fell swoop.

[Hanni]

Against TES, I don't name win conditions, I name tutors. Burning Wish first, and then beyond that it's Infernal Tutor or Plunge. It's really nice if you can cast a Duress first, but not always necessary. Cutting them off of tutors though severly limits their ability to combo off on you... at the least it slows them incredibly (since now they have less outs). Unless you have double mage, you don't want to name win conditions... even naming both, they can still pull removal out with Burning Wish. If you want to answer the win condition, run Stifle (and removal, since you need Xantid off the table).

Again, I agree with Scrumdogg... what you name with Meddling Mage is highly dependant on what else you have in hand and what point of the game you are at.

I tend to like to name removal against non-combo decks (random aggro with removal, for example) with Meddling Mage, since it keeps him protected as well as your other threats (if you have any other ones). Again, this is highly dependant on what deck your using.

Knowing how to use Meddling Mage against a certain deck requires playtesting and know-how. There are too many other factors that need to be included that simply saying that if you play Meddling Mage vs decktype X, you name cardtype Y doesn't really work too well.

[Bryant Cook]

They can still kill you with Tendrils, but it's kinda hard for them to build up the necessary storm count to kill you with one fell swoop.

Have you played against the deck? It's normally what I win with.

EDIT: Volt, I wasn't trying to come off overly defensive. Sorry if it seemed that way, I just normally prefer Tendrils to ETW.

[Volt]

Have you played against the deck?

Yes. It's very good. Don't go taking things personally. From my experience, the deck wins more often than not with an EtW for 10 or 12 goblins tokens. It can still kill you with a lethal tendrils, but it's not quite as good at doing that as Iggy Pop is.

That said, maybe Burning Wish is the correct answer to the question at hand, especially if you're running Stifles as well. Another suggestion I've heard is Lion's Eye Diamond.



EDIT: Volt, I wasn't trying to come off overly defensive. Sorry if it seemed that way, I just normally prefer Tendrils to ETW.

Don't sweat it. Btw, my playtesting against TES has been with Meat Hooks (huge surprise I'm sure). I found that a lot of the games I lost were when my opponent dumped 12 goblin tokens into play, but maybe that's just because he wasn't experienced enough with the deck to find the Tendrils win. He's pretty good with Iggy Pop, but TES is still kinda new. Anyway, after a few games, I started naming EtW with my first mage, and that really seemed to hurt him. He would often be able to get the storm count up to 7 or 8, but couldn't quite get all the way to a lethal Tendrils.

One thing I do know is that Stifle is kind of a nightmare for TES. That is actually the first thing I would side in against you.

[Nightmare]

Name win conditions, please. Every Meddling Mage should name Tendrils of agony vs. TES, or better yet, Brainfreeze. Yes, that must be correct.

In all reality, the most threatening Mage target when playing TES is probably LED, closely followed by Rite of Flame. Cutting off access to Red mana is a very strong play.

[Nihil Credo]

Taking the most common choice for each matchup - where "most common" can be as low as 40%-50% of the time...

Solidarity - High Tide (unless I plan on the hard lock with Mom/True Believer/Mage on C-Wish/Mage on Freeze)
Iggy Pop - Tendrils of Agony, Wipe Away
Epic Storm - Burning Wish, for the reasons Volt said.
Goblins - I usually end up naming Ringleader or Warchief (I rarely name Vial because Mage is often the last creature I drop against Goblins, and Vial is already out)
Landstill - Board sweeper of choice, depending on their colours (Deed, Damnation, Wrath). Second Mage names Standstill, unless I'm afraid of Crucible, in which case it's Crucible.
Red Death - (Threshold) Sinkhole, LD is your main concern; (Fish/AS) Lighting Bolt, turning that off makes Mother of Runes a lot more powerful.
Survival - Obviously Survival if they don't have it; otherwise your best bet is probably Flametongue Kavu, or Zombie Infestation if you see black mana.
NQG Red - (Threshold/Fish) Most likely Werebear or Dragon; (AS) FoW, to resolve Parallax Wave or Exalted Angel
NQG White - Same as above, replace Dragon with Enforcer
Trainwreck - Pernicious Deed, unless you have Stifle in Hand, in which case Damnation.
Affinity - If they have Ravager or Disciple on board, and no Vial, call the other one. If they have neither, or if they have Vial, call Plating.
Burning Tog - Burning Wish
Life From the Loam - Life from the Loam any day of the week.
B/W Confidant - (Threshold) Vindicate; (Fish) Cursed Scroll; (AS) Dark Confidant, unless you have StP in hand, in which case it's Cursed Scroll.

[noobslayer]

Of decks that really matter:

UGw: Whatever you aren't holding, usually cantrips early game to disable card quality.

Goblins: Aether Vial or Lackey if you can get it down fast enough, otherwise he's not too great here.

Solidarity: Always High Tide, then always Cunning Wish. Unless you know they boarded in bounce, then it gets tricky.

TES: Whenever I tested with Bryant my instinctive first call was LED, because it allows for the most busted plays. Second priority usually went to Rite of Flame or Burning Wish.

Red Death: If you're fast enough, I'd say Ritual, other wise, just pick off a fatty, ummm... Negator.

[Hanni]

The problem with trying to answer mana accelerants against TES is that they run so many of them... naming Rite of Flame doesn't help much when they can play any of the other ones (Dark, Cabal, Petal, LED, etc etc). I agree that LED is probably a good card to name because it prevents the Infernal Tutor combo while also disabling a mana accelerant. I still find that the best way to slow them down is to name off their tutor effects because it slows down their clock long enough to finish them off (if you're playing aggro/control).

Against Tide, I name High Tide and then Cunning Wish.

Against UGw Threshold with Fish, I name StP. This prevents them from removaling my Grunts and Confidants, which is extremely strong. After that, I usually name Enforcer, since Enforcer is a bomb against Fish. However, if they have yet to play a Mongoose, Mongoose is often a good call too.

Against Goblins, naming Aether Vial when it is not out keeps you're countermagic effective. I like to try to attack their mana supply... thusly I name Goblin Warchief as my secondary. It really depends on the state of the game and whether they have Vial out or not though... if they have Vial out, Meddling Mage is pretty much worthless, although naming Piledriver once Vial has 3+ counters on it is a good play.

Against Red Death, you name off Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning.

Playing with Meddling Mage against randomness is alot easier with Duress or Peek though... so if you're having doubts about how to use Meddling Mage (or how to use it effectively), you may want to consider running one of those cards in combination with Meddling Mage.

[Iranon]

Agaisnt combo, I too prefer to name mana, then business.

Slow combo decks have access to bounce or removal if you allow them to get going, most of the fast ones play more than one win condition. If they have mana in the double digit figures and access to several tutors, chances is they will have a way out.

If there is no immediate danger, shut off removal (or wishes for those decks that don't run it in the main).

[Citrus-God]

With my experiences with MM in Thresh, this is the best I've got...

Solidarity: High Tide with first mage, Cunning Wish with second.

IGGy-Pop: Tendrils of Agony with 1st Mage, Wipe Away with 2nd Mage. Game 2, play all your mages on Tendrils this time, theres a chance they sided in Sudden Death to compliment their Wipe Aways.

Goblins: Goblin Warcheif, Goblin Matron, Ringleader. In that order, depending on quantity left within the deck.

Fish: Name opposing Mages. Mages are the strongest cards in their deck, and they use them against you better than you use it against them.

Thresh Mirror: Varies on game state.

Thresh Red Mirror: Same as above. FYI, this is a much more intense match up. Game 2, you should be naming Control Magic, FtK, or Counterbalance.

Affinity: Cranial Plating, Thoughtcast.

TES: Listen to people who play this deck; LED or Dark Ritual...

Survival: I tend to name Burning Wish and FtK more often then I usually do...

Red Death: What everyone else said; Sinkhole, or even Nantuko Shade. Usually it's game state. He was topdecking and I topdecked nothing but answers and no threats as of yet. I had enough where Duress wouldnt matter, so I topdecked a Mage on called Hymn to Tourach. Game 2, they side out their Bolts and Chain Lightnings.... leave your mages in to Call Dystopia...

[Volt]

TES: Listen to people who play this deck; LED or Dark Ritual...

Yeah, I've been convinced. LED first. Burning Wish 2nd, maybe?

[Citrus-God]

Yeah, I've been convinced. LED first. Burning Wish 2nd, maybe?

Burning Wish, IMO isnt a bad call. As long as you keep them from playing Ill Gotten Gains and D. Returns in the first place, your fine.

[herbig]

I think naming LED depends on whether or not Swarm is in play and what kind of counter magic is in your hand. LED isn't nearly as good when you have Force of Will in your hand.

[frogboy]

It's almost always situational except against combo decks, and even then...

[Finn]

Has anyone noticed that shutting down combo with Meddling Mage requires atleast two? The combo decks of today are better equipped to handle them than in the past. I think we all knew it, but one thing is being laid out clearly from this discussion. Meddling Mage is not nearly as good as it used to be. I think we can agree that allowing combo access to its engine, which is variable out of necessity, will result in a game loss. So why is this card as popular as it is when it is clearly not very good at preventing that? Chalice is better, occasionally coming down on turn 1 and hitting groups of cards. But Nightmare said that he won with TES through 3 of them. That example may be a bit extreme, but the point remains.

Am I the only person playing Sphere of Resistance?

[Citrus-God]

Has anyone noticed that shutting down combo with Meddling Mage requires atleast two? The combo decks of today are better equipped to handle them than in the past. I think we all knew it, but one thing is being laid out clearly from this discussion. Meddling Mage is not nearly as good as it used to be. I think we can agree that allowing combo access to its engine, which is variable out of necessity, will result in a game loss. So why is this card as popular as it is when it is clearly not very good at preventing that? Chalice is better, occasionally coming down on turn 1 and hitting groups of cards. But Nightmare said that he won with TES through 3 of them. That example may be a bit extreme, but the point remains.

Am I the only person playing Sphere of Resistance?

Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Glowrider, Counterbalance, Stifle, more weird anti-combo stuff?

[scrumdogg]

You are correct that Meddling Mage by itself isn't the house it used to be. That is why any successful deck playing them does so as part of a package. Meddling Mage + True Believer, Mom, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Aether Vial, Jotun Grunt, Counterspell/FoW/other counters, Duress/Cabal Therapy - you can have a pretty good deck when you combine Meddling Mage with part of the buffet.

[Brushwagg]

You are correct that Meddling Mage by itself isn't the house it used to be. That is why any successful deck playing them does so as part of a package. Meddling Mage + True Believer, Mom, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Aether Vial, Jotun Grunt, Counterspell/FoW/other counters, Duress/Cabal Therapy - you can have a pretty good deck when you combine Meddling Mage with part of the buffet

You forgot Arcane Lab/Rule of Law. Meddling Mage and one of those makes alot of combo decks cry. Just make sure you name Burning/Cunning Wish with Mage.

[Tacosnape]

Yeah, I've been convinced. LED first. Burning Wish 2nd, maybe?

I can't imagine a situation where you'd follow naming LED with Burning Wish unless you were completely unable to defend your pair mages from Clasm/Rough with any sort of countermagic. My next target after LED would be Dark Ritual. If you're going to go the mana denial route, stick to it.

[Volt]

I can't imagine a situation where you'd follow naming LED with Burning Wish unless you were completely unable to defend your pair mages from Clasm/Rough with any sort of countermagic. My next target after LED would be Dark Ritual. If you're going to go the mana denial route, stick to it.

Hmm... I'm not sure I agree. Naming LED isn't just about mana denial. And naming Burning Wish isn't just about protecting your mages from Earthquake/Rough (they don't run Pyroclasm, btw; kills their Swarms).

[scrumdogg]

You forgot Arcane Lab/Rule of Law. Meddling Mage and one of those makes alot of combo decks cry. Just make sure you name Burning/Cunning Wish with Mage.

Dead on, Nat, and important potential weapons in the arsenal. As to naming Burning/Cunning Wish, they are key if you don't have a counter for what is wished for (or the card has Split Second). They also deny your opponent access to other combo pieces stashed in the SB (becoming more & more common). Your opponent has have boarded in removal, if they didn't, Wish is still the right call. If your opponent did board in removal, then your Mages(s) are dead anyway vs TES as they have leventy-million tutors but you have a better shot versus IGGy. Go for the possibility that you can control the outcome rather than name cards that won't matter once they fry your Mage(s). This also has the advantage of making them burn tutors (and possibly cards) to get rid of your Mage(s).

[Citrus-God]

Hmm... I'm not sure I agree. Naming LED isn't just about mana denial. And naming Burning Wish isn't just about protecting your mages from Earthquake/Rough (they don't run Pyroclasm, btw; kills their Swarms).

It's about what card that enables TES the best to Combo off with. LED combos off with LED and enable 1st-2nd turn kills all the time. Burning Wish is like naming Cunning Wish against Solidarity. Look, thing is, Mage is useless after one comes up and names LED. Dark Confidant can just outdraw you Game 2 without the aid of LED.

[Brushwagg]

If your going mana denial then vs. TES you name Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame. Pretty much in that order. TES needs the Black mana alot more then the Red.

[Happy Gilmore]

Against TES, I don't name win conditions, I name tutors. Burning Wish first, and then beyond that it's Infernal Tutor or Plunge. It's really nice if you can cast a Duress first, but not always necessary. Cutting them off of tutors though severly limits their ability to combo off on you... at the least it slows them incredibly (since now they have less outs). Unless you have double mage, you don't want to name win conditions... even naming both, they can still pull removal out with Burning Wish. If you want to answer the win condition, run Stifle (and removal, since you need Xantid off the table).



Thats what I would have said as well, but I have not real testing against TES to see if it is correct. I'll feel much better if this situation comes up in the future.

BTW, Counterbalance > Meddling Mage, but that is besides the point.