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Mulletus
04-01-2007, 01:19 PM
Ok, yesterday I played this at the first good legacy event in years in the cuse. It only had 13 players, but it was a powerhouse group. There was 10 out of the top 25 in the city, with #'s 1, 2 (1850+); 5, 6, 8, 9 (1800+); 12, 18, 21, 24. I went 3-1 with this new trial run of the black splash. I lost round one to Hollywood (Alegend) playing Dredge-atog. I was stuck on one land after he Forced my turn one Bird, but his draw was crazy. He won on turn 4. Round two I beat mono-red goblins; Three I beat white-splash-Goblins against Trevor (getsickandie); Four I beat a 4-color mirror piloted by Matt (bigbear).

Now for the list. I do have to add though that if you aren't familiar with playing Survival varients, you have no clue how hard it is to squeeze new cards into a deck, let alone a new color.

Lands
4 Tiaga
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept heath
5 Forest
1 Mountain

Yes that's just 20, I might jump on the 61st card bandwagon with another Forest. I have Goldfished with the heaths as Bloodstained mires, but Forest needs to be searchable with all fetches. And I know I can just get the duals, but Wasteland is in too many main decks. If my opening hand is Fetch lands only, I need to make sure I dont get beat by a single card like Wasteland.

Green
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness
2 Werebear
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

I know not everybody is going to be a fan of the Basking Rootwallas. But please understand that after dropping Llanowar Elves that left my turn one Lackey blockers to just Birds. Not to mention the obvious fact that Birds dont kill Lackey, Basking Rootwalla has great synergy with Survival of the Fittest. That and they are cheap to get back out after a board clearing effect via Genisis. I personally like to get one back later game with an Eternal Witness, it's a free creature if you're going off with Survival of the Fittest. I also added Werebear. The deck loves to accelerate, but after you have lands out there Birds of Paradise is a dead draw. This is a beater late game, and if your gong for the kill, two of these cost the same as one Ravenous Baloth with double the damage. I decided to have the 4th Eternal Witness be one of the cards I cut. Too many times have I drawn mutiples with no good targets. That makes them overpriced 2/1's. Don't get me wrong, it's amazing... I can just deal with one less.

Red
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Burning Wish
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Let's see, The biggest difference here is the fact that I dropped a Burning Wish. Like the Eternal Witness, it was something I was tired of drawing multiples of. These too, are great cards, but they are really in there to help the game one matchup against the archtypes. Once I know what my opponent is playing I can drop them games two and three for the hate I want. I will go over the targets later in the sideboard section. Next big difference is the Tin Street Hooligan, he is replacing the Viridian Zealot. I don't think theres that many enchantments that are played in tier 1 that a Zealot will handle. Tin Street Hooligan kills Jitte, Vial, Stax, and Affinity. The cost is also right in line with a 20 land deck. I don't need to kill stuff with him if I'm trying to race. He comes back real cheaply, and with the 2 power he blocks and kills any Goblin. Zealot got to be just too expansive to manage, and couldnt swing after using the effect.

Black
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Dark Confidant
1 Bone Shredder

Well Combo is getting to be a house these days. I need some sort of main deck hate. The Cabal Therapy lets me guess on what I fear. With all the creatures in the deck, 3 copies is really like 6. Creatures can come back, combo piesces can't (usually). It mainly gives my deck the time it needs to get in there, or a fair chance against decks it would normally not stand up to. The Dark Confidant is a card I might need to go to 3-of with. The problem with that is I had to kill my own with a Flametongue Kavu. The good thing is though that I am constantly thinning out the deck with Survival, so I hit a lot of lands. The highest I can get hit with is 5 from Genisis, but that's a 1-of. The worse I see getting hit with is 4, but if that happens it's either a Flametongue Kavu or a Ravenous Baloth. In either case it's worth it: the Ravenous Baloth replaces the life and is a beater, and the Flametongue Kavu is removal and a beater. I also like the giant target he get's on his forehead. People use removal on him before they spend it on other threats showing, and he's cheap to get back with Genisis. Bone Shredder is the anti-pro-red removal this deck needs. There's no Sharpshooter anymore, so a 5-butt is hard to deal with. That and with Jitte and Sword out there, strait damage isn't always the way to go. He flies also, and too often that matters.

Artifacts
2 Aether Vial

Well this one is still a tough call for me. The deck used to run 9 acceleration cards with Birds, Elves, and Rofellos. Now that its down to 7, and the average casting cost bumped up with Werebear... the deck needs another way to blow up early. The is also very good against control because of the uncounterability. It also gives the deck a few extra tricks. With one at 3 or 4, and an open Survival, the deck doesn't need to be played on your own turn. I am really torn about going down to 2, but I needed to fit other stuff in. The deck is obviously creature based, so why not use something this broken in it.

#'s
Ok before I get into my sideboard I'd like to break down some of the numbers of the deck:
1cc 13: 8 creatures, 3 sorceries, 2 artifacts
2cc 13: 6 creatures, 4 enchantments, 3 sorceries
3cc 5: 5 creatures
4cc 8: 8 creatures
5cc 1: 1 creature
Average casting cost = 2.275
28 Creatures = 47%
20 Lands = 33%
12 Others = 20%

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tsunami
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
1 Land Grant
1 Indrik Stomphowler

Let's start with the Wish targets. The main differences here are the Land Grant, and Meltdown. The addition of the 3rd color, makes the Land Grant better and the deck more consistant. It also makes the Wish a little less dead when you draw it against a deck you don't have targets for. Meltdown is a board clearer, and very affordable. Affinity can run right over you if you're not carefull. Also not too many artifacts are going to be higher than 3cc in this speedy format, so 3R can wipe them out. I left out a couple key cards, Reverent Silence, and hull Breach. I will prolly use these again, but the the meta didnt have any enchantments that I needed to hate out. At larger events I will play Reverent Silence, because of Enchantress and Humilty Based decks. The acc makes it great too. Hull Breach is very versatile, but it doesn't wipe the board like the Silence and Meltdown. I like the Stomphowler because I need somesort of enchantment control, and it's a bear, so I can sack it for life to the Baloth. The Sideboard is debatable per meta. I like my main deck chances aginst Goblins, but I still want a significant chnunk of combo hate. That's why I use 3 slots for Goblins, and 6 for Combo. (besides the wish targets)

Lands
4 Tiaga
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept heath
5 Forest
1 Mountain
Green
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness
2 Werebear
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Red
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Burning Wish
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
Black
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Dark Confidant
1 Bone Shredder
Artifacts
2 Aether Vial

Well there ya have it. I plan on getting much more testing done against the DTB's and other tier one decks. I think the old thread was getting a little cluttered. I will update this with matchup results. I would like to have Dave Price put his current list up here too, saince we are like the Survival-Advantage Patron Saints.

Tacosnape
04-01-2007, 01:56 PM
Boggle this list. No Duress or anything? And Dark Confidant in a deck full of 4-5 drops?

I think Dave Price's list is far stronger than this and had hoped the RGBSA thread would be based on the deck that's been posting streaks of Top 8's recently.

Mulletus
04-01-2007, 03:43 PM
Boggle this list. No Duress or anything? And Dark Confidant in a deck full of 4-5 drops?

I think Dave Price's list is far stronger than this and had hoped the RGBSA thread would be based on the deck that's been posting streaks of Top 8's recently.

Yeah, there's always going to be haters. Maybe I should have waited untill I played more. Just because I haven't played in many sanctioned or major events lately doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. I made Top 8 at Kadilak's DLD 2, and 30th at GP Phillly where I got a Pro Point for playing RGSA. I have 152 sanctioned Eternal events with an 1866 rating. But yeah you're right, I don't know what I'm talking about.

No Duress because it only works once, and it cant get creatures. If I play first against Goblins I can go Land-Therapy-Lackey. If I miss, I know what to call. Duress is kinda dead against Goblins. And it's not like the deck is "full" of 4-5 drops... 15% is odds I like. It makes the deck run more consistantly without Survival.

Whit3 Ghost
04-01-2007, 04:05 PM
Would you consider Last Rites as a Wish target?

It can leave Combo or Controll with no hand and is pretty much a must answer by most forms of Combo.

Alex_Van_R
04-01-2007, 04:45 PM
Would you consider Last Rites as a Wish target?

It can leave Combo or Controll with no hand and is pretty much a must answer by most forms of Combo.

I think that it would take too much time. You really need turn 2 Burning Wish (when you'd play Survival otherwise) and after that a turn 3 Last Rites. If you can't do that, it won't be very effective. (edit: against combo)

eclipsemonger
04-01-2007, 07:40 PM
i just don't see 20 lands being enough no matter how you look at it....especially when your up against wasteland and rishadan port.

troopatroop
04-01-2007, 08:17 PM
i just don't see 20 lands being enough no matter how you look at it....especially when your up against wasteland and rishadan port.

20 lands with 4 Bop 2 Werebear and Rofellos. Not to mention Eternal Witness for Sac-lands if it was a problem. Survival doesn't really need a whole lot of land to go insane under, usually about 3-5.

Honestly I can't see how people aren't running Quirion Ranger in any Survival build with Rofellos. I go for him every single time I have Survival and am not facing an immediate threat. He gives you 2 Rofellos activations + 1 mana every turn. How is being broken uneccessary?

Your manabase is perfect. Absolutely no changes there.

If you're going to play Aether Vial, you should be playing a singleton Spore Frog. It just reduces so many decks to 3 or 4 outs. Keep the counter at 1 and vial him in on their turn, and goblins can't win outside of Seige Gang, and without Prospecter it's going to be hard for anyone to go Combo like that. I think Vial is weak regardless, but it's certainly defendable.

I refuse to play Werebear. He doesn't curve well with the deck. He's bad when you're trying to accellerate, He's bad when you're trying to fix mana, He's only good when you need an undercosted beater, and that's only when you're late game, and that's where the deck is strong anyways. I play Jitte in those spots because it's makes your game amazing with Confidant, and Gro matchup stronger. I'd rather have Jitte against Thresh than Bear.

Rootwalla is just bad. Sure he's an answer to 1st turn Lackey. So in Llanowar elves.

I don't think you need more than 2 Baloths in the current environment. 4/4's for 4 answer Gro and Burn pretty well, that's about it. They're a good threat, but there are alot of things I want in the maindeck and 1 Baloth is Cuttable, along with 1 FTK and the Bone Spitter. Running Quirrion Ranger with Rofellos makes Masticore much better at dealing with Angel Stompy than Bone Spitter, especially facing Mother of Runes.

You need more than 3 discard spells to put up a fight against Combo. Game 1 you're basically scooping it up, and it's not like Duress is bad against "non tendrils storm combo" anyways. Regardless, slots are tight, and I can understand the lack of more Discard. DPrice runs 7. I tried it, but they were weak draws off the top, so I'm between 5-6. 3 Just seems weak tho as a Plan A against TES or IGGY.

Di
04-01-2007, 09:26 PM
Honestly I can't see how people aren't running Quirion Ranger in any Survival build with Rofellos. I go for him every single time I have Survival and am not facing an immediate threat. He gives you 2 Rofellos activations + 1 mana every turn. How is being broken uneccessary?

People aren't running Quirion Ranger because there really isn't a justified reason to be running it. If there is a serious need for it or if there is some sort of card that becomes infinately better because of it e.g. Masticore, then its inclusion is fine. Otherwise, it is a 1/1 in an aggro deck. An additional 4/4 over this is justifiable because you aren't going to be accelerating into something ridiculous like Masticore. Rofellos is fine tapping for 4 and dropping multiple Werebears in this deck. If Masticore was here then it should be an auto-include, but seeing how it isn't here, it isn't necessary. Also, the deck runs plenty of basic lands, so the land protection ability isn't as important as something along the lines of an atrocious manabase such as my own.


Rootwalla is just bad. Sure he's an answer to 1st turn Lackey. So in Llanowar elves.

Llanowar Elves can too block Lackey, but won't live to tell about it, nor will it provide an able threat should it have to be. With 27 mana sources, the deck is fine without Llanowar Elves, and can benefit from an extra threat.


I refuse to play Werebear. He doesn't curve well with the deck. He's bad when you're trying to accellerate, He's bad when you're trying to fix mana, He's only good when you need an undercosted beater, and that's only when you're late game, and that's where the deck is strong anyways. I play Jitte in those spots because it's makes your game amazing with Confidant, and Gro matchup stronger. I'd rather have Jitte against Thresh than Bear.


Bad when you're trying to accelerate? The only other options you really have are Llanowar Elves and Wall of Roots. Llanowar Elves can come down turn 1, which has its obvious advantages, but after turn 3 or so it's a pathetic 1/1. Wall of Roots comes down the same turn as Werebear does, and will add more mana with a Survival in play, but it won't attack. Undercosted beater being lategame? Please. I play threshed Werebears as early as turn 4 and start attacking. Next turn, I play more of them and overhwelm the opponent. Even if it goes into the late game, it only costs a grand total of 6 mana to chain 2 of them into play (2 mana being survival activations), as opposed to 10 mana for multiple FTK or Baloth. That's a pretty substantial difference.

Your Jitte arguments with Threshold are basically pointless because that is arguably one of the deck's best matchups. But instead, you give them another card to name Pithing Needle with. Realize that a standard build of Threshold runs 2-3 Needle maindeck. More than likely the first one will be on Survival, but should they draw another you give them that option to hit it. Plus, Umezawa's Jitte is not a creature. This means that you can't recur it with Genesis, toss it to Survival, add mana, or sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy. Plus, it is not a threat on its own in the deck. Well, technically it is, but in order for it to be useful, it requires a non-Birds of Paradise creature. It's realistically not difficult to do that, but one of the fundamental principles of designing a survival deck is to make sure every slot is able to pull the weight on its own should it have to. Werebear is an incredibly cheap beatstick, and one of the best lategame topdecks you can have. Of course Umezawa's Jitte can do this as well, but it doesn't have the synergy in the deck like Werebear does.


You need more than 3 discard spells to put up a fight against Combo. Game 1 you're basically scooping it up, and it's not like Duress is bad against "non tendrils storm combo" anyways. Regardless, slots are tight, and I can understand the lack of more Discard. DPrice runs 7. I tried it, but they were weak draws off the top, so I'm between 5-6. 3 Just seems weak tho as a Plan A against TES or IGGY.


Duress is bad in the maindeck because it's bad against Goblins, which happens to be one of the more annoying and popular matchups. Basically I'm pretty sure the accepted gameplan against combo is to overhaul the sideboard. It's very hard to design the deck to have a positive game 1 combo matchup without messing up the other slots, so it's easy adding 6-9 anti-combo slots in the sideboard. If you noticed, mulletus has Pyrostatic Pillar and Chalice of the Void. He should be fine.

troopatroop
04-01-2007, 10:00 PM
People aren't running Quirion Ranger because there really isn't a justified reason to be running it. If there is a serious need for it or if there is some sort of card that becomes infinately better because of it e.g. Masticore, then its inclusion is fine. Otherwise, it is a 1/1 in an aggro deck. An additional 4/4 over this is justifiable because you aren't going to be accelerating into something ridiculous like Masticore. Rofellos is fine tapping for 4 and dropping multiple Werebears in this deck. If Masticore was here then it should be an auto-include, but seeing how it isn't here, it isn't necessary. Also, the deck runs plenty of basic lands, so the land protection ability isn't as important as something along the lines of an atrocious manabase such as my own.



Llanowar Elves can too block Lackey, but won't live to tell about it, nor will it provide an able threat should it have to be. With 27 mana sources, the deck is fine without Llanowar Elves, and can benefit from an extra threat.



Bad when you're trying to accelerate? The only other options you really have are Llanowar Elves and Wall of Roots. Llanowar Elves can come down turn 1, which has its obvious advantages, but after turn 3 or so it's a pathetic 1/1. Wall of Roots comes down the same turn as Werebear does, and will add more mana with a Survival in play, but it won't attack. Undercosted beater being lategame? Please. I play threshed Werebears as early as turn 4 and start attacking. Next turn, I play more of them and overhwelm the opponent. Even if it goes into the late game, it only costs a grand total of 6 mana to chain 2 of them into play (2 mana being survival activations), as opposed to 10 mana for multiple FTK or Baloth. That's a pretty substantial difference.

Your Jitte arguments with Threshold are basically pointless because that is arguably one of the deck's best matchups. But instead, you give them another card to name Pithing Needle with. Realize that a standard build of Threshold runs 2-3 Needle maindeck. More than likely the first one will be on Survival, but should they draw another you give them that option to hit it. Plus, Umezawa's Jitte is not a creature. This means that you can't recur it with Genesis, toss it to Survival, add mana, or sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy. Plus, it is not a threat on its own in the deck. Well, technically it is, but in order for it to be useful, it requires a non-Birds of Paradise creature. It's realistically not difficult to do that, but one of the fundamental principles of designing a survival deck is to make sure every slot is able to pull the weight on its own should it have to. Werebear is an incredibly cheap beatstick, and one of the best lategame topdecks you can have. Of course Umezawa's Jitte can do this as well, but it doesn't have the synergy in the deck like Werebear does.



Duress is bad in the maindeck because it's bad against Goblins, which happens to be one of the more annoying and popular matchups. Basically I'm pretty sure the accepted gameplan against combo is to overhaul the sideboard. It's very hard to design the deck to have a positive game 1 combo matchup without messing up the other slots, so it's easy adding 6-9 anti-combo slots in the sideboard. If you noticed, mulletus has Pyrostatic Pillar and Chalice of the Void. He should be fine.


Howabout generating obscene amounts of mana? Casting Multiple FTKs or Baloths in one turn? The guy pays for his own mana cost for god sake, he only costs you a creature in your hand to go crazy. He's a 1/1 who stops wasteland and combos with your 6 1cc mana creatures. You know that this isn't an Aggro deck all the time, and sometimes you need to ramp up mana to recover from a bad position.

Jitte may not have as much synergy with the deck as Werebear, but It certainly flat out wins more games. It's a more powerful card. Period. If there was room for Werebear, I would cut Llanowar elves for it. Comparing Werebear to Jitte is like Apples to Oranges anyways. It should be more like Vial and Jitte because they're more similar I guess.

I haven't accepted my only out to storm combo being an overhauled Sideboard. If I can put 6 Discard spells with 3 Witness into my deck, with Dark confidant, I don't feel blown out going into that matchup. Even with Duress against Goblins not being all that good, it's good against everything else, and I plan on playing everything else alot more than goblins.

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Burning Wish
3 Duress
3 Therapy

4 Dark Confidant
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos
1 Quirion Ranger

3 Eternal Witness
1 Tin-Street
3 Flametounge Kavu
2 Ravenous Baloth
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Masticore

1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis

4 Taiga
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
1 Mountain

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tsunami
1 Pyroclasm
1 Seeds of Innocense
1 Anarchy
1 Regrowth
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Loaming Shaman

My current list for reference. Regrowth in the SB because Quicksilver reminded me about how it gives you 2 of every bomb in the SB when you have double wish. It's strong when you need recursion and is a nice Utility piece to have. Seeds is better then Meltdown IMO. I wanna be able to kill Enforcer and not worry about it. If I'm clearing their board, I don't really care if they gain 10 life. Loaming Shaman for a good out to Enforcer. Pyromancer to be amazing against Goblins.

I'll tinker around with Elves out for Werbears. You may be right.

Mulletus
04-02-2007, 10:07 AM
I haven't accepted my only out to storm combo being an overhauled Sideboard. If I can put 6 Discard spells with 3 Witness into my deck, with Dark confidant, I don't feel blown out going into that matchup. Even with Duress against Goblins not being all that good, it's good against everything else, and I plan on playing everything else alot more than goblins.


My build has 3 Cabal Therapy main, and on in the sideboard. With 3 Burning Wish, that's 6. Now factor in that each can be used twice (Once flashed back I can wish for them again) so that's like 12 main deck discards. Then I have 6 slots for combo exclusivley in the sideboard, and against TES I can bring the Engineered Plagues in too. Too much discard makes this a green based control deck, when you need it to be a green based agro-control. Combo is really big, and I need to be preppedfor it. I just don't want to hurt the deck's chances against other matchups.

Tacosnape
04-02-2007, 12:07 PM
Duress is bad in the maindeck because it's bad against Goblins.

So it's disqualified for being good in only about 80% of your matchups, assuming a generous 20% Goblin Field?

troopatroop
04-02-2007, 01:23 PM
My build has 3 Cabal Therapy main, and on in the sideboard. With 3 Burning Wish, that's 6. Now factor in that each can be used twice (Once flashed back I can wish for them again) so that's like 12 main deck discards. Then I have 6 slots for combo exclusivley in the sideboard, and against TES I can bring the Engineered Plagues in too. Too much discard makes this a green based control deck, when you need it to be a green based agro-control. Combo is really big, and I need to be preppedfor it. I just don't want to hurt the deck's chances against other matchups.

Saying you have 6 Discard spells main, because you're running 3 Burning Wish is rediculous. I do not play discard in my SB to be wished for, not only because it's using wish to get an underwhelming card (Which could be something like Persecute to actually... you know... win the match), but because it's bad. Spending 1BR to play Cabal Therapy isn't good.

You're not playing 12 Discard spells. You're playing 3 Cabal Therapy and 3 Burning wish. IMO, that's weak.

Tacosnape
04-02-2007, 02:46 PM
You're not playing 12 Discard spells. You're playing 3 Cabal Therapy and 3 Burning wish. IMO, that's weak.

Technically he could carry his ridiculous mathematical argument on to ridiculous extremes by saying that since Cabal Therapy could theoretically hit more than 1 card per shot, he could be playing 24.

You're right. That's weak. And I don't care what your sideboard is, if you're relying on winning a match by having to win both games 2 and 3, your strategy is fraught with the possibility of mishap. Hundreds of things can go wrong in 2 games, especially against combo. TES and Iggy can combo out before you get a move. Solidarity can Remand your face off. GK Salvagers can Deed your Chalice/Pillar off the table and Duress away your tech. And of course, you can randomly just draw a crappy hand and mulligan into more crap.

The build with Duress, Therapy, and B. Wish -still- isn't favored against most combo decks, but it's a lot closer. It's a hell of a lot more feasible to snag that first game, and when backed up by Mesmeric Fiend the deck doesn't have a lot of trouble picking up one of the next two, and if it doesn't, it can sometimes pick up the 2nd and 3rd games anyway.

I also don't like the lack of a Chainer's Edict. Random Mystic Enforcers and moreso reanimated Megafacebeaters (Akroma, Triple S) are an unsolveable problem and cause a loss where a win might be extracted otherwise.

troopatroop
04-02-2007, 03:29 PM
You pose a good point. Possibly dropping Loaming Shaman for Chainer's Edict?

Di
04-02-2007, 04:16 PM
So it's disqualified for being good in only about 80% of your matchups, assuming a generous 20% Goblin Field?

No you can run it, it isn't the worst slot in the world, but generally I'm more worried about that 20% Goblin field moreso than the 80% non-Goblin field. Aside from combo decks, which aren't nearly as popular as Goblins, you really shouldn't be all that worried.

Regardless on how you look at it, the maindeck does need more discard. I believe 4 Cabal Therapy is absolute mandate in a Survival build, so I'd at least start with that. I'd also probably run Mesmeric Fiend over Duress maindeck, solely on the principle that it can attack, block, pitch to Survival, and hit a creature. Doing the turn 1 Duress, turn 2 Survival play isn't always the best way to play in a control matchup. You have a lot of time to win, so playing a turn 3 Survival is fine if you can play turn 1 and 2 discard.


You pose a good point. Possibly dropping Loaming Shaman for Chainer's Edict?

Loaming Shaman is probably a poor choice regardless. Do you honestly fear Threshold? I basically get all happy inside every time I sit across from it. Maybe if Loam or Reanimator or something became really popular it'd be justified, but seeing how they aren't current metagame concerns, I don't really see the reasoning behind running it.

Tacosnape
04-02-2007, 04:40 PM
Loaming Shaman is probably a poor choice regardless. Do you honestly fear Threshold? I basically get all happy inside every time I sit across from it. Maybe if Loam or Reanimator or something became really popular it'd be justified, but seeing how they aren't current metagame concerns, I don't really see the reasoning behind running it.

I disagree. Loaming Shaman's my hero. He's not a mere silver bullet against Threshold. He also, as you said, hits any deck packing Loam (Which is an underrated deck), Landstill (Helps against Crucible and Nantuko Monestary), any deck packing any sort of recursion, any black control deck packing Chainer's Edict or Haunting Echoes, the Survival mirror, and tons of other random things you wouldn't ordinarily think of (The Wonder in U/G Madness, for example). Without Loaming Shaman, we're piloting a very toolboxish deck that doesn't have any sort of tool at all for graveyard hate.

In addition, if you're running the 4x Rootwalla configuration, Loaming Shaman allows you to repeat the process should you find all your Rootwallas in your graveyard. Loam them back in, Survival them back out, repeat.

As for the discard, Mesmeric Fiend main is an idea. I've been personally happy with Duress, as I like to be able to do something on my first turn when I don't have a turn one Bird and have no idea what I'm up against to name with Therapy. But Mesmeric would be a decent alternative.

Di
04-03-2007, 12:38 AM
Without Loaming Shaman, we're piloting a very toolboxish deck that doesn't have any sort of tool at all for graveyard hate.


How is it "toolboxish?" The only real 'tools' Survival builds generally have these days are along the lines of Tin-Street Hooligan and maybe another 187 creature. If anything, adding Loaming Shaman makes the deck more "toolboxish" because it gives you another singleton slot that you tutor for. Also, if you're looking for graveyard hate, why aren't you just running Haunting Echoes? It's more expensive, but at least it's a win condition all on its own. It makes the lategame Burning Wish a lot stronger, seeing how you really don't have many viable targets. You have like..Regrowth, and that's about it. Everything else is pretty much narrow removal.


As for the discard, Mesmeric Fiend main is an idea. I've been personally happy with Duress, as I like to be able to do something on my first turn when I don't have a turn one Bird and have no idea what I'm up against to name with Therapy.

Generally you don't know what you're up against and have a potential turn 1 Cabal Therapy, you have two choices:

1. Wait until turn 2 to play it, hoping to gain an idea of what they're playing.

2. Name Goblin Lackey.

Personally, I actually prefer the second option because this deck can be crippled from a Goblin Lackey unlike any other card in the format. RGBSA suffers tremendously against Goblin Lackey because they lack a creature that can block it without being hit by Mogg Fanatic or Gempalm Incinerator, so that makes it all the more imperitive to be able to stop a Goblin Lackey at all costs. Even if you miss, you at least gain the information, but considering Lackey is the #1 worst turn 1 play for the deck (other than TES winning), I'd say it's worth the possible wiff to not deal with that issue.

Tao
04-05-2007, 06:41 AM
This thread sucks. It is just Mulettus abusing the opening post to promote his inferior deck.

I think we should take a widely accepted version of this deck as an opening post and fortunately we have one list by Quicksilver that looks solid AND Top8ed in a big tourney. I suggest that this thread gets re-opened with the list below.

If possible it should be done by one the most experienced players with this deck like Quicksilver himself.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5348

3rd Place
RGBSA
Dave Price (Quicksilver)

6 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Werebear
4 Burning Wish
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Flametongue Kavu
2 Ravenous Baloth
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Indrik Stomphowler

Sideboard
3 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Engineered Plague
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Pyroclasm
1 Regrowth
1 Tsunmai
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Anarchy
1 Hull Breach

Mulletus
04-05-2007, 10:41 AM
That's fine... have the mods move this to the newbie zone. I top 4'd in a field of the best talent I've seen in a long time. It was an initial run af the deck too. I have planty of respect for Dave and his builds. He may have expected more combo, or had a lot of faith that he would never see a turn one Lackey. I just don't know that a personal attack like that was necessary. I will continue to make changes and be as succesful as I have been, and care less about the haters. I remember hearing about one of my survival builds being posted on the source before I knew what the source was. I just think if the mods and admin thought I was abusing this section, or didnt know what I was talking about ... they would have moved or deleted this thread long ago.

Di
04-05-2007, 11:35 AM
This thread sucks. It is just Mulettus abusing the opening post to promote his inferior deck.

I think we should take a widely accepted version of this deck as an opening post and fortunately we have one list by Quicksilver that looks solid AND Top8ed in a big tourney. I suggest that this thread gets re-opened with the list below.

Way to ruin this thread. Good job.

Note this thread was NOT intended to promote Mulletus's "inferior" deck. It was to continue the discussion on RGBSA. This is simply a continuation of that thread. If you don't believe Mulletus is qualified for that post, then you are dead wrong. Not only has he played the deck longer than Dave Price, but he's also put up just as many impressive results as him, though not as recent, including 30th place at GP Philly.

You make me laugh saying Dave Price is the more experienced player. Just because Mulletus's build isn't the exact norm does not mean it is necessarily a worse deck. The deck is fine, and the discussion will continue here.

Tao
04-05-2007, 11:57 AM
It was not meant offending against Mulettus. It is not about if the list is good or bad or if mulettus placed good somewhere.
If we start a thread about a deck then we should have the widely accepted list in the starting post.

Tacosnape
04-05-2007, 01:10 PM
I agree with Tao to some extent. Say what you want about decks being inferior or superior, I'm not sure this deck and Dave Price's deck even belong in the same thread. They're nowhere close to the same deck.

I personally would like to see a thread where we can work with Dave Price's build (Although not at the expense of this one, since Mulletus deserves like anyone to have a thread for his deck.) We're not questioning Mulletus's results. We're merely saying, "What the hey, here's a Survival Build (Price's) that's T8'd like crazy recently, and is staying pretty static in its build, let's discuss." But if it's deemed the decks are close enough together for one thread, I'm okay with that.

I'll do a write-up for it if we can't get Dave Price to. (I feel I know the build close enough to do so without butchering it too badly.) I'd just like to know if I should post the sub-writeup in a new thread, in the middle of this thread, or where.

Di
04-05-2007, 02:57 PM
Let me reiterate this again: Nobody is making another RGBSA thread. Anything RGBSA related will go here, or the ATW Survival thread in the LMF. Saying this card isn't anywhere near Quicksilver's build is ludicrious. It differs from a grand total of 2-3 slots. If you wish to discuss Dave's build, then please do so. I'd be much happier with people actually posting constructively in this thread rather than bitching about who started it. This is a discussion on the deck in general. So just get to it.

Tao
04-05-2007, 03:31 PM
Criticizing =/= bitching

And I am not criticizing WHO started the thread. It was just an idea that Quicksilver who made the old RG/SA thread should also be allowed to make the new one. But I'd have no problem if Mulettus made a thread including Quicksilver's list.

It is that the opening post of a thread represents the whole thread and thus should include a generally accepted version of this deck. The opening post needs to be the basis of a discussion. Quicksilver's list is far more accepted and more straight than a list with:

2 Dark Confidant
2 Aether Vial
2 Werebear

I would have no problem with discussing Mulettus list (I don't think that it is bad) in a thread that is about the standard list. Yes, standard list! It is always rare that a Survival list in Legacy can become "standard" because there are always 1 million versions of it. That's why I like that list so much, it is very straight in its choices and that's why I think it would me more productive to discuss RGb/SA with this list.

Nightmare
04-05-2007, 03:43 PM
If you refer to Survival as having a "Standard list" then you're building/playing it wrong.

Tacosnape
04-05-2007, 04:33 PM
In his defense, Mulletus does say in his opening post he'd like to have Dave Price's list up there too. So since Dave's been totally quiet on the subject, should I do a writeup, send it to Mulletus, and have him stick it up there, and he or Dave can feel free to tell me if I botch the reasoning behind anything in his list?

Tao
04-05-2007, 04:44 PM
If you refer to Survival as having a "Standard list" then you're building/playing it wrong.

There were standartized ATS and RG/SA lists. If you took them to a tourney you always changed 0-4 slots for the expected meta. That's why these changes were Meta choices like "how many Basic Lands?", "Spore Frog MD?" or "Goblin Sharpshooter MD?".
But playing cards lilke 2 Dark Confidant, 4 Basking Rootwalla or 2 Aether Vial is no Meta choice but a personal preference.


In his defense, Mulletus does say in his opening post he'd like to have Dave Price's list up there too. So since Dave's been totally quiet on the subject, should I do a writeup, send it to Mulletus, and have him stick it up there, and he or Dave can feel free to tell me if I botch the reasoning behind anything in his list?

That sounds like a good idea. And I also think it is good to have Vial, Rootwalla and Confidant metioned in the opening post because both can be strong cards in the deck. So an opening post with Mulettus personal list and the currently most popular list sounds fair.

quicksilver
04-05-2007, 06:34 PM
Adding my most recent list to the opening post would probably be a helpful reference. I believe tao posted the decklist I used in an earlier post if you need a copy of it to add.

And I would like to say that there is no one correct way to build survival. Unlike decks like goblins, solidarity, thresh, or most other decks in the format, there are a very wide variety of good cards that could successfully be played in survival. Much of it does come down to personal preference, and although you could make cases to play x card over y card, it is very difficult to give definitive evidence that the card would be an improvement overall since there are many decks and many different situations that you could come up against.

So just because there are differences in the deck does not necessarily mean it is inferior or superior. Most survival builds have the capability to do well and win tournements. One deck might be slightly better in match A and another slightly better in match B, but you can't pick your matchups.

Alot of it comes down to personal preference as the decider of what specific cards you would like to run, and just because you chose a different card, does not make you wrong in that choice. This is why there have been so many different and sucessful survival builds over the years.

mmmetaphor
04-06-2007, 06:13 PM
Nice post Quicksilver.

A few questions on your current list:

Why do you prefer Mesmeric Fiend over Pyrostatic Pillar (or CoTV) in your sideboard. Is it because it is survivalable or for some other reason?

How have 4x Werebear been working for you? I play 2 in my build with 1x Wall of Roots and 1x Wood Elves in their place. When I played with 4x Bears I often would seem to get flooded early on with them (sometimes with 2 or 3 showing up in the first few turns) and they were easy for my opponent to remove and mana-screw me.

Have you considered running an answer for nonbasic lands such as Avalanche Rider or perhaps Ruination out of the board or has this never been an issue with your build? I like having an answer for manlands but so far I'm unimpressed with Avalanche Rider/Ruination otherwise.

Hanni
04-24-2007, 02:08 AM
G/R/b SA

Lands (20)
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (22)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Werebear
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Anger
1 Squee

Spells (18)
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard (15)
1 Genesis
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Bone Shredder
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague

To me, Burning Wish and Eternal Witness seem to slow the deck down alot in exchange for card advantage/quality. I've always felt Survival was a little slow (not necessarily bad), and it seems like Burning Wish and Eternal Witness fuel that even further. I think that the Survival engine itself gives the deck strength in consistency for G/R Fires and that the deck benefits from lowering the curve more. I think the manacurve of this build is very eloquent.

7 1cc burn spells give the deck additional removal to clear away blockers. One major aspect of traditional G/R Fires has always been to clear the way of blockers so that the fatties can swing through. Combined with 3 Flametongue Kavu for more heavy hitting, the burn makes sure the opponent doesn't block. The deck lacks tramplers, so burning out opposing blockers is very helpful for the game plan. It fits extremely well with the decks mana curve and can go to the dome as reach, which is always nice.

7 1cc discard spells (which seem already standardized) give the deck aggro/control-like disruption to get rid of anything from combo cards to creature removal to whatever.

Nimble Mongoose gives the deck a very strong 1cc drop. Since the deck utilizes a ton of 1cc spells that easily fill the graveyard (and 8 fetchlands), the deck easily supports the Threshold requirment (which is also great with Werebear). Untargetability gives the deck strength against removal like StP, while a 3/3 is still a fairly big fatty. At one mana, it fits the curve extremely well. The Threshold creatures are very effecient in this deck. The deck becomes more reliant on the graveyard, which does weaken the deck a little in that area. Discard and Krosan Grip are solid answers, though Pithing Needle would probably be a good idea in the sideboard. My sideboard is still untuned.

The deck rounds out the beats package with 6 4cc fatty drops.

I haven't playtested Survival variants as extensively as many others have, but I've always loved G/R Fires (which I used to play back in MM/IN T2), and I think that simply accomodating the Survival/Squee/Anger engine in replace of Fires makes the deck really strong. By fitting in the efficient mana curve of Threshold creatures, the deck gains a tremendous boost in speed to deal with decks like combo, Goblins, etc. The lack of card advantage/quality really only seems to matter against decks like board control, where simply raping their hand with an abundance of discard, low cc hasted fatties powered out via Survival, recurred via Genesis, and burn to the dome seems like it would be a solid strategy against board control. I see the Goblins matchup and combo matchup improving, I'm not quite sure about Threshold.

On an ending note, I'm thinking that I should fit some Pithing Needle's into the sideboard, but I'd like to playtest the deck as-is for now. Also, should achieving Threshold become a problem early for Mongooses, I will also try Kird Ape. I don't like Rootwalla because it's a 1/1 for G that you have to pump 1G into to be worthwhile. I realize the synergy it has with Survival, but it still comes down as a 1/1 for G. I'd rather experiment with Mongoose and Kird Ape first.

Seraphim
04-24-2007, 11:20 AM
I like the idea, I just don't think that getting threshold is going to be possible without hitting a survival in this deck. I tried something similar a while back using the threshold critters but eventually cut them for madness and madness outlets. My G/r/b survival build is as follows:

4 Wall or Roots (constant source of green mana for survival)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Elvish Spirit Guide (turn 1 survival / wall)
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Masticore (eats aggro with rofellos or gaea's cradle out)
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Ravenous Baloth / Blastoderm

1 Viridian Zealot
1 Loaming Shaman / Withered Wretch
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Engineered Plague

22 land


The deck played out pretty much the same in every match:
You spend your first few turns either setting up with a wall or survival or disrupting with duress / therapy and then your next two turns disrupting while struggling to play out your threats under either mana denial or attempting to handle the opponent's threats.

I always felt like the deck struggled to do anything well as it is not nearly as effecient at its gameplan as goblins was (hence the 4md eplague).


I tested and tweaked as much as I could (I love toolbox decks), but eventually just gave up as the deck just stopped winning its good matchups. You could drop the eplagues to the sb and glass canon it hoping not to face goblins and smash all aggro-control decks, but that would not seem like a great idea and is counter my theories for tournament preperation and play.

slyfer
04-24-2007, 01:47 PM
i suggest some null rod in side so you get a better combo match up with duress + cabal + null rod. I think the deck cannot play chalice because @1 we have too much cards
Null rod stops also tormod's.

I personally play with 1 viashino heretic main deck because the gamekeep is not "stoppable".... you just pull out a hasted heretic to make 11 damage to him :wink:
We don't have white and brainstorm to avoid gamekeeper triggers and discards.

Also 1 goblin sharpyshooter is nice vs empty the warrens.

With 1 genesis main deck the deck has a winnable late game recurring whatever so we can find some space

Mulletus
04-25-2007, 10:14 AM
Well I finally brought a build of this to a larger event. The dual land draght at Newark. After 6 rounds of swiss I was in 2nd 4-0-2. I got burned out by boros game 3 in top 8, I was kinda mana boned. I might end up dropping a Baloth for a Spike Feeder. It gives up pow/tuf for one less casting cost. But that has made the difference too many times for me not to try it. I made a few last minute changes, which might make the haters happy. I eneded up 5th out of 38 winning 4 Tiagas
4 Tiaga
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept heath
5 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness
2 Werebear
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Burning Wish
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Dark Confidant
1 Bone Shredder

Sideboard:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tsunami
1 Meltdown
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Anarchy
1 Indrik Stomphowler

That's -2 vial, -1 bob, +3 duress in the main.
And -1 land grant, -1 therapy, +1 edict, +1 anarchy in the board.

I thought I was going to see WW, and the edict saved my butt against Reanimator.

bigbear102
04-25-2007, 02:40 PM
Well I guess I'll throw my list in here as it is pretty much similar to these:
RGBWSurvival

3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Plains

4 Survival
4 StP
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Aether Vial

4 Birds
1 Rofellos
2 Werebear
1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Bone Shredder
1 Keldon Vandals
1 Viridian Zealot
3 FTK
3 Hierarch
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Rootwalla
2 Eternal Witness

SB
4 Duress
4 E. Plague
2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 metagame slot

The deck has done very well for me getting me 2 top 8's and a 10th place finish at 3 out of the 4 major tournaments I've been to this year (Geneseo 10th, TMLO day 2 6th, Newark 6th).

The deck splashes white but it is much closer to RGBSA than any other build on these boards, so I posted it here.

Mulletus
04-30-2007, 11:01 AM
I made a couple more card changes again.
Main: -1 Bob, -1 Baloth; +1 Spike Feeder, +1 Spore Frog.
SB: -1 Anarchy; +1 Reverent Silence.


Two weeks + two DLD's + two top 8's = 4 Underground Sea + 4 Tiaga + 4 Savanah. Not to mention the last DLD I went to, I got 4 Bayou.

I have nothing against Dave Price.... but he was at all 3 of these events. So here's to the haters......

Khepri
04-30-2007, 03:54 PM
I have a question: Bob=squee? so do you play without squee?

Jaynel
04-30-2007, 04:16 PM
Bob refers to Dark Confidant.

Khepri
04-30-2007, 08:10 PM
Ok thanks ^^ It looked so strange no squee in a survival deck... :P

What about pithing needle? May be is it a problem for this deck if you don't have Survival in play?

Mulletus
05-01-2007, 11:09 PM
Nope, I win a lot of games without Survival. I cast Survival even with Needle naming it. I have Burning Wish and a Tin Street Hooligan in the main, and I bring in Indrik Stopmhowler game 2. It just doesn't work till I get rid of the Needle. But while my opponent worries about my Survival, the top of my deck is usually really good. This is an advantage deck. The only thing I fear in Top-Deck-Mode is the mirror match.

bigbear102
05-07-2007, 11:36 PM
This is an advantage deck. The only thing I fear in Top-Deck-Mode is the mirror match.

Why? You win the die roll with identical hands and draw 4 FTK's, why would you fear the mirror?

Does this deck stand a chance against Flash? I have been brainstorming changes and can't really get a list that can even get a decent match against the deck. Duress and Therapy are good, but pre-FS the deck has Mystical Tutor AND Brainstorm to beat discard. I haven't found any good answers, even Leylines aren't a good answer because we have no way of protecting them.

Pyrostatic Pillar and Chalice are irrelevant against this deck, as they don't play very many spells to win and go off well before or in response to chalice at 2.

If anybody has any idea on how to tune Survival to beat Flash, or at least even get close to even with it I would appreciate it. My brain if fried from hours of testing and brainstorming on the topic.

Awesomator
05-08-2007, 12:05 AM
Why? You win the die roll with identical hands and draw 4 FTK's, why would you fear the mirror?

Does this deck stand a chance against Flash? I have been brainstorming changes and can't really get a list that can even get a decent match against the deck. Duress and Therapy are good, but pre-FS the deck has Mystical Tutor AND Brainstorm to beat discard. I haven't found any good answers, even Leylines aren't a good answer because we have no way of protecting them.

Pyrostatic Pillar and Chalice are irrelevant against this deck, as they don't play very many spells to win and go off well before or in response to chalice at 2.

If anybody has any idea on how to tune Survival to beat Flash, or at least even get close to even with it I would appreciate it. My brain if fried from hours of testing and brainstorming on the topic.

Don't think it's going to happen, at least not without you having to run less creatures. You could go for mesmeric fiend since they can only bounce it but thats kind of blehh. Boarding the extirpates can be helpful also if they are running mystical and worldly, but even if they are running lim dul's and mystical. They mystical, you uncounterable shuffle their deck and get rid of all the mysticals in the deck. It's helpful since they most likely don't have all the combo pieces, but it's still not an amazing solution unless they run worldly and mystical.

Zilla
05-08-2007, 12:21 AM
It's helpful since they most likely don't have all the combo pieces, but it's still not an amazing solution unless they run worldly and mystical.
It's not just useful against the Mirage tutors. It stops the Kiki-Jiki version cold. The need Protean Hulk in the yard to return with Karmic Guide to get their combo rolling. If you Extirpate Hulk as soon as it goes the yard, it's game. The hard part is keeping it in your hand long enough for it to matter. If the Flash player knows you're playing Extirpate, they'll just wait to go off until they can protect themselves with Duress or Unmask.

Tacosnape
05-08-2007, 03:15 AM
I started tuning RGBSA to beat Flash almost immediately, as it's one of my real life decks. As such, I've done a fair amount of testing against various builds in a pretty short span of time. I have not succeeded in making Flash favorable, as doing so pretty much just eats the whole RGBSA concept. I have made it distantly winnable though.

Here are the things I learned pretty quickly, besides that Leyline of the Void rocks:

1. Grim Lavamancer is pretty good maindeck. He sucks with Werebear, but he's a 1-drop that with any luck can be ready to stop the Kiki-Guide combo by turn 2. He's also versatile enough to warrant a couple slots against other decks. I'd never play him in a non-Flash meta, but desperate times call for desperate measure.

2. Extirpate helps. I had already started running Extirpates in place of the Mesmeric Fiends/Loaming Shamans in my close-to-Dave Price's build, mostly because I was tired of losing to Loam Control and the Extirpates were pretty decent with the Duress/Therapy set. You'll win a lot of those turn 2-ish ones here.

3. Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast. Must haves.

4. You can't run Burning Wish and beat Hulk Flash. You need those slots for Leylines and Red Elemental Blasts protecting them.

5. The suicideish Turbo Hulk Flash is just going to destroy this deck if it's not packing Leylines. Turn one Duress often still results in you dying before getting another turn (Which is another reason I hate Hulk Flash)

This might all sound a bit incoherent, which is because I'm drunk. I think in short, however, You want REB's and Leylines but not Extirpates against post-FS Flash, and for the GP you want REB's and Extirpates, and possibly Leylines too despite the fact that it and Extirpate have as much synergy as a frog and a blender.

Silthyn
05-09-2007, 03:48 PM
I might as well post my decklist here also:

//Lands
4 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Mountain

//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Werebear
1 Bone shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Orcish Settlers
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Tin street Hooligan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

//Sorceries
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Burning Wish

//Enchantments
4 Survival of the Fittest

Comments?

Awesomator
05-09-2007, 04:41 PM
It's not just useful against the Mirage tutors. It stops the Kiki-Jiki version cold. The need Protean Hulk in the yard to return with Karmic Guide to get their combo rolling. If you Extirpate Hulk as soon as it goes the yard, it's game. The hard part is keeping it in your hand long enough for it to matter. If the Flash player knows you're playing Extirpate, they'll just wait to go off until they can protect themselves with Duress or Unmask.

I have no idea why people will decide to run the kiki build, it's about a hundred times worse.

Jak
05-11-2007, 12:06 AM
Less spots for more control basically. Makes the deck way more resilient, but yeah the disciple version is less prone to hate. It is either play straight up fast ass combo or controlish combo.

Mulletus
05-16-2007, 01:44 PM
OK call me crazy but I might make some drastic changes for anti flash.

Main
-3 Wish
+1 Duress
+1 Therapy
+1 Bloodstained Mire (21st land I know)

SB
-5 Wish targets
+5 REB/Pyroblast

My only problem is I have such a good matchup against all the decks that beat Flash. It's like I'm trading in 50% of the field's hate to beat half the field. Myabe I'll just leave it alone and win the whole shabang.

Shriekmaw
05-16-2007, 02:32 PM
I have no idea why people will decide to run the kiki build, it's about a hundred times worse.



I don't believe the kiki build of Flash is 100 times worse. I agree, you are opened to more hate cards that your opponent can play against you, but with the 5 creatures instead of 11, it allows you to play more protection spells. I believe with the disciple build your main deck is very tight which makes sideboarding very difficult in certain matchups with the deck.

I guess the jury is still out as what version of the deck is better, but I have to learn toward the kiki build at the moment.

Moby Dick
05-25-2007, 01:53 PM
if your using vial, you can md 1 goblin skycutter to kill their karmic guide when they fetch feeder and guide, before they go for kiki and a protection creature. this way its imune to e truth and chain of vapor.

Nihil Credo
05-25-2007, 03:40 PM
Meh, at that point, you might as well play Crypt Creeper and fizzle their Karmic Guide trigger.

Mulletus
05-25-2007, 11:54 PM
I think if you hit the karmic guide with any red dmg, it makes it fizzle. If they gice it protection from red, they can't target it with Kiki jiki anymore. But it doenty matter much anymore it'll be banned, and this deck will go back to being good.

AngryTroll
06-10-2007, 03:03 PM
Without Flash, we can return to a more usual RGb build of the deck.

Lately, I've found my matchups against decks like Goblins, Meathooks, and Sligh wanting a little. The biggest problem is that burning away a Birds and/or a Werebear buys a lot of tempo. Survival is already slow, and if your first relevant play is a Baloth on turn four (because your turn one and two plays die fiery deaths), the Baloth is barely even going to stem the bleeding. Threshold adding Goyf over Werebear is actually a real pain, too, making several of our cads much less spectacular against them.

For reference, the list I am playing looks like this. I consider it to be just about the typical (older style) RGbSA list.

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Werebear
3 Eternal Witness
3 Ravenous Baloth
4 Flame Tongue Kavu

1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Rofellos
1 Bone Shredder
1 Genesis
1 Indrik Stomphowler/Tin Street Hooligan (to taste)

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival
4 Burning Wish

4 Wooded Foothills
1 - 2 Windswept Heath / Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
5 Forest (4 if you run 6 fetches)

The SB:
3 Engineered Plague
4 Chalice/Pyrostatic Pillar
Choose from the numerous Wish targets available to fill the rest of the board. Tin Street Hooligan/ Stomphowler can go here also, whichever is not main. Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle are fair here as well.


Most of the deck is pretty solid. However, there are a few cards that are in the deck that have been underwhelming lately, and a few that I think should be added to the deck. Let the heresy begin.

Werebears: One of my favorite cards in the deck. He comes down on turn two after a Duress or Therapy on turn one, taps for mana, and paying 3 for a 4/4 beater is excellent. One of the only mana producers that is great on turn two and on turn 20. HOWEVER....he dies on turn two in a lot of the hard matchups. Mogg Fantastic kills him against Goblins, and every piece of burn possible kills him against decks like Sligh. Even his usefulness in Threshold has greatly decreased with the rise of Goyf. He no longer trades with other Werebears (which is game breaking, because of our superior card advantage), but simply chumps Goyf for a turn.
Cards to be considered in this spot: Sakura Tribe Elder, Wall of Roots.
The problem with both of these is that they do not do anything useful in the late game. However, ensuring four mana on turn three, is a huge boon. Wall of Roots, in particular, can be a 0/5, 0/4, or 0/3 depending on how big of a blocker it needs to be. A 0/5 blocker will make even a Goyf bounce off of it for a while while they dig for an Artifact or Enchantment.

Magus of the Moon: What a bomb. I know he should go into the deck. Is he a 1-of? A 2-of? Do you run two or three more in the sideboard? Hmm.....

Flame Tongue Kavu: A bomb, no denying this. However, there are a few cards competing for his spots. A second Bone Shredder, Warmonger, and Fire Imp are all possibilities here. Bone Shredder kills a couple of things that Kavu misses, but certainly can't replace it. Fire Imp only costs three, which is great, but again cannot replace all of the Kavus. I might cut Kavus down to two or three to add in a Fire Imp and another Bone Shredder.

Goyf: Does he belong? His lack of utility makes me say no. Thought I would mention it though, to answer any questions before they are asked.

Baloth: I might end up swapping some number of Baloths for Spike Feeder. Against Goblins, Spike Feeder kills everything that Baloth kills, gains the same amount of life, and costs one mana less. Against assorted Aggro decks, he does not beat Werebear, Watchwolf, Kird Ape, and a host of other critters with toughness three. For that reason, cutting all of the Baloths is no good, but I am tempted anyways.

Basking Rootwalla: A lot of people love this guy. I am unsure about him personally, but he seems great against a Goblins.

Overall, all of these changes lower the curve of the deck to try and help the early game against fast aggro decks. Lowering the curve could make Aether Vial more viable, but I am very hesitant to add more non creatures to the list.

The other concern I have about all of those changes is the reduction in the deck's ability to end the game. Turning Werebear into Walls cuts 4 4/4s, Baloth into Spike Feeder removes a few more 4/4s, and FTK into Bone Shredder removes 4/2s for...uh....a Lava Dart. Pretty terrible.

I think the only change I will make now is the Werebears into Walls of Roots, but I am not even sold on that change. What are other people's thoughts on this? Is it time to shift the deck towards some of the more...different builds here, or are there simple changes that can make a difference here? On the other hand, the deck has posted some great results as it is, so perhaps I just need to learn how to draw better? I've been playing the deck for a long time, but lately it has felt very slow.

Mulletus
06-11-2007, 11:30 AM
The only thing I don't like about that build is if you loose the die roll to Goblins, your only answer to turn one Lackey is Birds. I guess if you go first you have more options, but that's why I made room for Rootwalla.

As far as Warmonger goes, he is a little steep. Goblin Sharpshooter is one less to cast, but has a 1 butt. I am prolly going to fool around with this old card that I forget the name of. It's a 1/1 for R, with: R, sac: do one dmg to all creatures without flying. I'll have to dig it out do get the name and exact wording.

Sims
06-11-2007, 11:37 AM
It's a 1/1 for R, with: R, sac: do one dmg to all creatures without flying. I'll have to dig it out do get the name and exact wording.

This post is gunna lack some content, but:

Bloodfire Dwarf, R.
Creature- Dwarf
1/1
R, Sacrifice Bloodfire Dwarf: Bloodfire Dwarf deals 1 damage to each creature without flying.

porcupinetreeman
06-11-2007, 12:53 PM
Magus of the Moon: What a bomb. I know he should go into the deck. Is he a 1-of? A 2-of? Do you run two or three more in the sideboard? Hmm.....

I've been testing this guy he's amazing at slowing down decks that have a lot of non-basics. I would run one main deck and one sideboard. He's even handy when getting haste with anger at times.


Flame Tongue Kavu: A bomb, no denying this. However, there are a few cards competing for his spots. A second Bone Shredder, Warmonger, and Fire Imp are all possibilities here. Bone Shredder kills a couple of things that Kavu misses, but certainly can't replace it. Fire Imp only costs three, which is great, but again cannot replace all of the Kavus. I might cut Kavus down to two or three to add in a Fire Imp and another Bone Shredder.

FTK is amazing in survival. I would recommend running all FTK's. You could run one bone shredder if silver knight/soltari priest is a problem. Fire imp and warmonger aren't worth putting into this slot.


Goyf: Does he belong? His lack of utility makes me say no. Thought I would mention it though, to answer any questions before they are asked.

No



Baloth: I might end up swapping some number of Baloths for Spike Feeder. Against Goblins, Spike Feeder kills everything that Baloth kills, gains the same amount of life, and costs one mana less. Against assorted Aggro decks, he does not beat Werebear, Watchwolf, Kird Ape, and a host of other critters with toughness three. For that reason, cutting all of the Baloths is no good, but I am tempted anyways.

I run 3 baloths and one spike feeder in my build. Spike feeder can turn the tide in a burn matchup.


Basking Rootwalla: A lot of people love this guy. I am unsure about him personally, but he seems great against a Goblins.

I dont run these. They are good but aren't worth the slots. If you are having problems with gobins run WOB or WoR

AngryTroll
06-11-2007, 02:16 PM
Yup, I know Goyf doesn't belong, but I thought I would mention it in case anyone else was wondering about it.

The lack of answers to a turn one lackey on the draw is a serious problem. Specifically, Birds block and die (if they don't get Fanatic'd or Incinerated), and that leaves Burning Wish for Pyroclasm. On the draw I look for a BWish against Goblins, especially game one when they do not know what they are playing against.

Kavu has always been a bomb, but lately his utility in several key matchups has gone sharply down. He no longer eats a Werebear for breakfast and then keeps Nimble Mongeese from attacking against Thresh, because of Goyf. They are easily able to get Instants, Sorceries, and Land, and with Survival, we are throwing creatures in the yard pretty quickly. Against Goblins, there are no creatures that FTK kills that a Fire Imp doesn't. I already run one Bone Shredder. I am leaving all four FTKs in the list for now, but I am looking for something else to run alongside them to deal with cards like Goyf. Maybe one Duplicant, like in the good old days?

Goblin Sharpshooter is great. Bloodfire Dwarf sounds worth testing too. Warmonger is not as good as either of those, but I saw someone else mention it this week and thought it was worth looking into.

I haven't done enough testing against Thresh with Goyfs in it to have firm matchup percentages, but Goyf certainly helps them out.

Tog
06-11-2007, 02:45 PM
The Tarmogoyf does indeed help them out a lot. Flametongue is no longer what it used to be against them. Often times when I play against Threshold, I only have a few outs against them in the form of Bone Shredder, Rootwalla gang block, or a Gigapede. It's pretty much impossible to resolve without Therapy backup. Nimble Mongoose are less of a problem with Basking Rootwalla. In testing, Rootwallas helped out a lot. They double as a win condition or hold down the fort once Survival is in play and you need a little bit more time to go critical. Even without Survival, the Rootwallas can buy some time. The MD removal cards I use are: 2 Bone Shredder, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter. Flametongue Kavu was just too slow of a removal spell for my taste and often didn't have anything relevant to target. This is one of the reasons I have so few removal spells; They're too slow to be relevant. I'm probably not going to draw any of them without Survival in play anyway. Shredder also eat almost everything in the format except for Dark Confidant and Hypnotic Specter. With Kavu gone, my mana base seemed more stable as I was able to focus on a higher concentration of black.

However, I've fallen in love with the singleton Sharpshooter. It can take down x/1 by itself and with the help of a Wall of Roots with 4 counters or Scryb Ranger it can take out x/2 as well.

On a side note, I'm not too sure on the inclusion of the Ranger. It can potentially make mana with a BoP in play but the instant speed save Taiga or Bayou has really come in handy. Its also the HOUSE against Sea Stompy. It single handedly shuts down their deck. It's pretty funny.

Tacosnape
06-11-2007, 03:12 PM
For what it's worth, I've taken to running Sandstorm in sideboard. Solves Goblin Lackey and crazy fast Empty the Warrens assaults.

Tog
06-12-2007, 02:47 AM
Has anyone tried any of the following cards in their Survival builds?

Heartwood Storyteller ~ Could potentially be good in a deck with 20+ creatures

Stingscourger ~ The whole Pro-Red thing still applies but its cheap and bounces big ass guys and buys you some time

Gorrilla Shaman ~ I've liked it to some extent against combo or aggro control deck. Aggro Control decks bring in Engineered Explosives, Jitte, Vial, and Pithing Needles. Against combo, it eats Lotus Blossoms, LED, and Chrome Mox. Hurray for Mox Monkey! It's a one trick pony but it could hurts if you pull it off. Game three you can hit an uber powered Therapy if they hold back.

Thornscape Battlemage ~ a 4 cc spell much like FtK but the damage comes from a green source and can hit pro red Creatures. RGw Survival builds pretty much suffer from the same weakness as RGSA but being able to pay the white kicker off a BoP or something can come in really handy. Say bye bye to annoying equipment and running multiples of them can thwart Pithing Needles if anyone is having problems with them.

Fortune Thief ~ Beats me. Could it be useful?

Any ideas people?

thefreakaccident
06-12-2007, 05:04 PM
The shaman is tech, I'll give ya that.. I have ran in in my previous side boards (I like shaman in the MD artifact hate slot myself)... the story teller is cute but not necessary, as for the fortune teller.

I think the fortune teller is next to useless (can be morphed, but that usually means it will just attract disruption).

heartwood is also cute, but also unnecessary to the deck overall. For combo in my side board, I use druid... basically ensures they'll burn for at least 8.

the battlemage can be interesting against AS.... Soryy I cannot give any good advice as to any 'jank' we could run, but I just play the classic ATS build... works pretty well whenever I use it.

porcupinetreeman
06-13-2007, 08:28 PM
Maybe one Duplicant, like in the good old days?

At 6 mana, I dont think duplicant is worth the slot. What would he remove that FTK couldnt already remove? Exalted, Silver, Soltari, Mystic Enforcer, Goyf?


Goblin Sharpshooter is great. Bloodfire Dwarf sounds worth testing too. Warmonger is not as good as either of those, but I saw someone else mention it this week and thought it was worth looking into.

Back when I use to run RG Survival Advantage I ran 1-2 sharpshooters and was never happy with them. Even in goblin games he gets picked off usually. Bloodfire Dwarf might be worth the slot because all the combos that use ETW.

I've been testing 2 x Wall of Roots in the Werebear slots and am pretty happy with them. I've also been testing Masticore, but I think he might be subpar.

I have also been testing Plague Spitter, but he doesn't seem quick enough to stop Etw.

AngryTroll
06-13-2007, 09:44 PM
At 6 mana, I dont think duplicant is worth the slot. What would he remove that FTK couldnt already remove? Exalted, Silver, Soltari, Mystic Enforcer, Goyf?

Exactly. Mystic Enforcer, Goyf, and Exalted Angel are all real threats that FtK does not kill. It might not be necessary, but it is really nice to be able to tutor up an answer when you need one. Akroma and friends are also things that can't be removed any other way. I am not sure that Duplicant is worth the slot, but I might test it again.

Edit: Deleted double post. Oops.

Di
06-13-2007, 10:05 PM
Why exactly is the debate for Duplicant up when Bone Shredder does the job for half the cost? Mystic Enforcer and Akroma aside, it kills everything else mentioned, for cheaper than FTK. As far as I know it was already in the decklist, so why is this issue even being raised?

BoardinCharlie
06-14-2007, 10:45 AM
One of the issues I can see up front is the idea that Boneshredder doesn't pose a threat itself, it does its job...then just chumps or something. FTK kills something then takes something else with it most likely. A 1/1 flyer isn't going to do much, not to mention it could tie up possible mana, but not sure mana would be an issue at later turns.

Tog
06-17-2007, 01:14 AM
As combo becomes more and more of a common place in my meta, I was wondering what the best targets to wiff on for Cabal Therapy were against decks like TES, SI, and Iggy. Though I think I have a good idea what some of the targets are (i.e. Burning Wish and LED), I wasn't sure of THE target for each of these said decks. As I have never bothered to play combo in Legacy, advice and debate on the best targets for Therapy would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

MattH
06-17-2007, 01:51 AM
As combo becomes more and more of a common place in my meta, I was wondering what the best targets to wiff on for Cabal Therapy were against decks like TES, SI, and Iggy. Though I think I have a good idea what some of the targets are (i.e. Burning Wish and LED), I wasn't sure of THE target for each of these said decks. As I have never bothered to play combo in Legacy, advice and debate on the best targets for Therapy would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
It depends greatly on what turn it is, and what you have in hand, etc.

P.S. "to whiff" means to attempt to hit and miss, not "to attack blindly."

Tog
06-17-2007, 02:28 AM
Thanks for the vocabulary lesson.

To clarify, how about turn 1 Therapies, Game 2 on the play or the draw (your choice), against each of the said decks (TES, SI, and IGGY). Since the games states can get complicated rather quickly, I think this is the simplest scenario. In your post, please tell us what card you would name, your reasoning behind it, and whether you're on the play or the draw. If it is a real life (or online) experience, tell us the number of mulligans your opponent took as well in addition to what was outlined above and whether or not it effected your decision in the naming process.

AngryTroll
06-24-2007, 05:06 PM
BoardinCharlie had it right....I ran 4 FtK and 1 Boneshredder until recently. I have been playing with 3 FtK and 2 Boneshredders, but the Boneshredders typically end up killing a Goyf (or whatever) and then chumping. Taking out a Kavu lowers the total number of fat the deck is running, so I was looking for a solution that killed Goyfs, Exalteds, and Mystic Enforcers that was bigger than a 1/1. Since Duplicant would be a 1-of, you would almost never see it without Survival, in which case it can be a lot better than Bone Shredder.

I was just tossing the idea around...for now I am just running 2 Bone Shredders and 3 FtKs. Bone Shredder is good if you draw it without Survival, where Duplicant is a lot more limited, so I have been toying with the idea but not running it that way in tournaments.

Di
06-24-2007, 07:33 PM
As strong as Duplicant is, I can't justify running it due to its casting cost. The fact that is kills all the same things as Bone Shredder and lives to do some other bidding does not outweigh the fact that you will probably be dead by the time you cast it. Bone Shredder is great against Goblins because it is able to be played before FTK and allows you to chump something, but Duplicant isn't very likely to be cast at all against them given their mana denial. Plus fwiw, Duplicant isn't going to be able to deal with a Tarmogoyf played on turn 2 that will possibly be killing you within the next couple of turns.

Also on a side note, this doesn't really apply for RGBSA, but Survival decks running blue actually have a solid use for Gilded Drake again. Being able to steal a Tarmogoyf is 10x better than killing it.

Tao
06-25-2007, 10:31 AM
Damnit. You play green, you play creatures, you play Discard >>>>>>> you play Tarmagoyf?!?!??!

It's not that complicated. Your deck gets a billion times better and you can stop whining about opposing Goyfs.

Tacosnape
06-25-2007, 12:47 PM
Yeah, um, Tarmogoyf? He's absolutely bonkers in almost every Survival deck that runs green. Run him. Seriously. He singlehandedly ended all debate about what the best green creature ever printed was.

That is all.

Di
06-25-2007, 07:25 PM
Did you people not read the last post I made in the ATW Survival thread? It addresses the possible inclusion of Tarmogoyf. I think this discussion should continue in that thread, as it is not RGBSA-specific, and applies to Survival in general.

I personally believe he is overhyped in Survival (not overall; he's retarded in Threshold), but I don't have enough testing under my belt with him to make a final judgment. From what it seems, MattH has also come to similar conclusions regarding him, but I may be wrong. I understand that he has the potential of being bigger than Werebear and can provide early beats, but unlike Wearbear, Tarmgoyf does not function as a mana accelerant either. I've used Werebear as a mana source in a majority of the games he's been played, so that could be a kicker. However, I believe a majority of Survival players will eventually shift to Nimble Mongoose over Werebar for the sole purpose of Goblin Lackey, and Tarmgoyf would probably fulfill that 2cc slot and provide an efficient beater. I only question him as he provides no usage outside of the "cheap beater role" unlike every other slot in the deck. Werebear fulfilled the role of mana source AND cheap beater, and so on.

Another issue I have with Tarmogoyf is now it makes the deck somewhat less resilient to graveyard hate. Generally when someone plays a Tormod's Crypt against me I laugh it off, because taking a Squee or Anger shouldn't lose me the game when there's an engine in play. But when you're all of a sudden having your primary beaters being weakened by Tormod's Crypt I see a problem. Maybe not a huge concern, but it does raise some concerns.

So like, continue this discussion in the other thread, and I'll move the posts later.

MattH
06-25-2007, 08:44 PM
The reason I gave up on my Goyf-Sur deck was more that Goyf was just barely better than Elvish Warrior against goblins. He's probably insane against threshold, which I never got around to testing.

Di
06-25-2007, 10:23 PM
The reason I gave up on my Goyf-Sur deck was more that Goyf was just barely better than Elvish Warrior against goblins. He's probably insane against threshold, which I never got around to testing.

If that was the case then it is is a non-issue, as Survival naturally has a positive Threshold matchup. This may have possibly changed a bit now that Threshold has a decent creature, but I still don't foresee Survival decks having too much trouble against them, what with their robust engine, disruption package, larger creatures, and overall threat density. That said, the fact that the card is dismal against Goblins should be one of the biggest reasons against its inclusion. If it will only be a 2/3, 3/4 tops against them, then I think we need to find a better card for the slots.

Tao
06-26-2007, 03:22 PM
With Sorcery Discard (you run 8) + Land (16 Fetchlands + 4 Wastelands on both sidew) + Creatures (yes) it is 3/4. If your discard or V. Shaman / TS Hooligan hits a Vial it grows to 4/5 and most Goblin builds run Swords to Plowshares or Pyrokinesis so that 4/5 is often possible and with luck even 5/6.

But is is important that an Elvish Warrior has just the perfect size against Goblins for the first 3-4 turns.

AngryTroll
07-21-2007, 11:38 PM
I've been doing a lot of work on this deck lately. On the one hand, it really doesn't have any easy matchups. On the other hand, not too many matchups are unwinnable. Thresh getting Goyf finally prompted me to overhall the deck, because that card single-handedly makes the matchup much worse. Between constant Lackey problems and the new, dreaded Goyf, and an accumulating layer of dust on the old list, I started messing with creatures and slots that had been set in stone for a while.

I played with answers for a the dreaded turn one Lackey, played with two drop creatures, and played with the removal spots, both hand- and creature- related.

If I were going to play the deck in a large tournament, say, this weekend, this is what I would be running.

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Tinder Wall
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Boneshredder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos
1 Tin Street Hooligan

4 Survival
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish

4 Taiga
3 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
5 Forest

SIDEBOARD
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Engineered Plague
Wish cards:
Deathmark
Hull Breach
Anarchy
Haunting Echoes
Pyroclasm
Regrowth
Flashfires
Cabal Therapy
Massacre


You might notice that I am running 61 cards, 2 Boneshredders, Mesmeric Fiend, Tarmogoyf, Tinder Wall, Deathmark in the Sideboard, and all sorts of questionable cards.

I started by putting Wall of Roots in the Werebear spot and Basking Rootwallas to block Lackey. However, Rootwallas died to Fanatics and Incinerators pretty terribly. I tested Tinder Wall in the Rootwalla's spot, and they block Lackey like champs. That made seven walls in the mainboard, so I took out the Wall of Roots, giving me some free spots.

Duress, as well as whiffing against Goblins, is not great against Meathooks, Thresh, or many of the other decks that can Brainstorm away the best cards and not care about Duress. The deck also has Birds, Tinder Walls, and Therapies in the one drop spot, so putting in Fiend was not a big deal with the mana curve. It is annoying to see StP when you Fiend, because you have to take it, but you can grab creatures against Goblins and Thresh and Meathooks.

That brings us to Goyf. Just a few posts up I said that Goyf probably does not belong in the deck, but that is not always true. With the mana curve adjusted as it is now, the two spot is much more open, and the deck can really use an early blocker and cheap fat later. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what Mr. Goyf does. 2/3 on turn two against most decks, and against everything except Goblins and Solidarity, it becomes a 4/5, 5/6, or even a 6/7 with ease. Don't be fooled with the low (nonexistant) number of Sorceries in RGBSA (BWish and Therapy end up RFG), and the lack of Instants and Artifacts....and only 4 Enchantments...he ends up huge.

21 Land / 61 cards. Yup.

The deck doesn't really have any amazing matchups, but it can beat most things. CRET belcher comes to mind as one terrible matchup, but you have four Wishes for Pyroclasm game one, and game two you get Engineered Plague to help out. You can't do much about Charbelcher, though. Against Goblins, Tinder Wall helps get to 2B for Engineered Plague, which has often been a problem in the past. Two Bone Shredders, the Death Mark, and your own Goyfs make the Thresh matchup much better.

Mulletus
08-16-2007, 09:36 AM
I like the idea of builds with double Boneshredder. I am going to playtest one Big Game Hunter, instead of two Boneshredders. Goyf is usually 4 power, it doesnt need to be madnessed to work, blue skies doesnt have pro black, I can madness it out to combat Jitte trix.... it is pretty versatile. Let me know what you all think.

Team-Hero
08-16-2007, 08:25 PM
Big Game Hunter is good in some situations. He does own Goyf really good and against goblins he can wreck an attack. Imagine this:
Opponent declares attackers with Goblins. You madness a Big Game Hunter, striking down the Piledriver and taking out the Warchief.
The only thing I would worry about is the Mountainwalk the Goblins get because of the King and your mountains.

from Cairo
08-16-2007, 08:39 PM
The fact that he can potentially be instant speed removal in a creature form that's also card advantage via Survival seems like it makes him a worthwhile call. I mean Survivaling for this guy, then pitching him to another activation, makes him read "Kill target creature, chump target other creature, search your deck for a creature" for GB. He's an awesome answer to Goyf, and can be a huge swing vs Goblins, which are really the two major creature threats out there right now.

He's also an answer to the Sutured Ghoul version of Cephalid Breakfast, one that they can't Therapy out of your hand, if you have a random creature in hand, Survival in play and 3 mana open, and they are not holding Force of Will they lose to BGH.

Speaking of Cephalid Breakfast, has anyone else been thinking about the inclusion of Mogg Fanatic as possibly being one of the stronger 1 drop options out there for Red splash Survival? I mean it was a solid answer to Lackey on the Draw to begin with but with a new combo bringing two more 1/1 must die targets into the picture, does he become worth 3-4 of?

Tog
08-16-2007, 10:58 PM
Speaking of Cephalid Breakfast, has anyone else been thinking about the inclusion of Mogg Fanatic as possibly being one of the stronger 1 drop options out there for Red splash Survival? I mean it was a solid answer to Lackey on the Draw to begin with but with a new combo bringing two more 1/1 must die targets into the picture, does he become worth 3-4 of?

Motion seconded. In my RGbSA builds I've been using Mogg Fanatics for a month now. Being a good answer to Lackey, it's also a very good answer to Dark Confidants which just pop up in every deck that sports black. I've also found them to be stellar against the Dredge decks, taking out an Ichorid and removing all the Bridges from the yards at the same time. However, that match up is still pretty bad. I've been using Smothers as well since most people don't expect non-creature removal in Survival builds.

~Tog

Zach Tartell
08-16-2007, 11:11 PM
I'd like to give this deck a bit of an explaination before you debunk it:

I play locals in Syracuse, New York. For anyone who doesn't live here, it's mostly just como and control right now, with a couple randoms playing decks like GB beats (I ran into a turn two spirit monger [1: forest, birds; 2: swamp, ritual, spirit monger]), or elves!. Thusly, I don't have to worry (almost) at all about my goblins matchup, or about agro/control. Once in a while I'll run into affinity or my own let-out Enchantress, but for the most part it's either Breakfast, Belcher, UWbg/UWg/UBw/UW landstill, or TES. Also, two or three survivals.

That said, I'm looking for a survival to keep the turn 4 wrath away, stop 8 1/1's on turn 1, live through humility, or PWN a huge sutured goul or kiki/hussar horde. I haven't tested this against anything other than my TES, a crappy Junk Pile variant that I will probably post later, and my UGw thresh (not hetfield thresh - more Bardo-y). It's mediocre so far, but I like how it works.

I'm not going to divide it with cool headers - It's in order from mana to beaters to utility to engine and discard:

4 Wooded Foothills
4Windswept Hills
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Nimble Mongoose/Basking Rootwalla (I haven't decided - rootwala adds some cool combat tricks, but the untargetability of the goose is hot)
1 Masticore
1 Triskelion (a 4/4 under humility - this is sometimes relevant)
1 Razormane Masticore (this guy has first strike. And lets me pitch extra land. He deals with goyf, and eats meddling magi and other little things. I'm not sure he should be not be another masticore. Or triskelion or something. Feedback?)
1 Spike Feeder
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Orcish Settlers
1 Tin Street Hooliga
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Zelot
3 Eternal Whitness
4 Cabal therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Squee, Genesis, Anger

Sideboard: (I'm not sure this is good)
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
4 Debated slots (needle? Engineered plague? more creatures?)

I like it okay so far. Dryad Arbor is pretty cool, to be able to pull up a land, to pitch a land to survival... I'm not sure he's worth the slot, but I haven't come to a verdict yet. Spike feeder isn't really necessary, I don't think. I wanted life gain for the goblins matchup, and I traded Baloths for 'goyfs, so I needed something. Turns out that I don't, so far. I've used him to make FTK's bigger to trade with thresh's goyfs. Redundancy with Rofellos's is pretty important, I believe. Di turned me onto it a while ago, and I like him in multiples. Him and the ranger and Masticore is pretty broken, against creatures. The ESG's were added at Matt Abold's suggestion - I was going to play lotus petals, to make goyf bigger quicker, or get that turn one survival. But it's cool that she pitches to survival if I have enough mana, and powers out the turn 1 rofellos (for the turn two FTK). I like the inclusion of the settlers, too. Makes landstill an eaiser matchup, what with how Geoff and Adam and Matt and Nick and... Tariq have all dropped crucible.

Zelot is in because I have a hard-on for killing enchantments. My teammate Matt Abold scooped to a meathooks at Kaddy's III because of a MD'd worship and a crystalyne sliver. Pretty weak. I like that he can just sit around, too, unlike the sex monkies. I'm not sure that the geese or rootwallas would be better off as fanatics - my 1-drop slot isn't too cloged, and he is pretty good. But then I'd need the fourth taiga. And then I'd get stupid. Remember the book "if you give a mouse a cookie"? He'd want some milk. And that milk would be like 4 bolts for removial, then I'd add something dumb like sharpshooters, and this and that... It'd approach rig-a-ma-role status awful quick. I'm pretty sure that the okaba-gang shinobi is too much, alot of the time, too. Ugh, it's late.

Let me know what you think I'm not dead set on it. But it looks cool, and goldfishes well.

from Cairo
08-17-2007, 05:45 PM
Personally, I think Arbor is a risk thats not worth the reward, I would rather have a land that can't be Fanatic'd, Bolted, StP'd, than occasionally be able to fetchland into a blocker.

Okiba-Gang Shinobi, seems cool, its effect is awesome, but its fairly high casting and still pretty high ninjitsu cost, would probably cause me to steer away from using it. Again thats just me personally if you find it working then maybe its worth the inclusion.

I would probably replace one or two of the Masticore/Razormane/Triskelion slots with Bone Shredders so you have a quick cheap Tarmogoyf solution. All three of those cards are bombs, but I don't think you need all 3 of them, I can't think of a situation where you'd fetch them all, rarely would two be needed to regain control of the game. I would keep Masticore, cause its obscene with Rofellos and Ranger, which you're playing both of, and probably drop Razormane as the weakest, since its more or less a glorified more expensive colorless FTK. Triskelion vs a second Shredder would be up to how often you find yourself wishing you had another way to kill one big single creature vs a horde of little ones.

Only other choice I would think about is ESG over one of the mana Walls- Tinder or Roots, they essentially both provide you with acceleration, its just a question of whether you are finding yourself in the early game wishing you could resolve T1 Survivals or Goyfs, or whether you had an additional Blocker T1 to power you into T2/3 FTKs and Masticores. I think either option can work, in a Goblins light metagame maybe the walls are less desirable than the ESGs.

I would definitely lean towards Nimble Mongoose over Basking Rootwalla. Untargetability is huge. Nimble is a much stronger turn 1 play and once you have Survival online you don't really need free 1/1s, the surprise blockers are cute, but really with an active survival powering out Goyfs and FTKs will probably win fine w/o Basking Rootwalla.

I'm currently testing/running

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tinder Wall
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Flame-tongue Kavu
1 Masticore
1 Bone Shredder
1 Rofellos
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Tin-street Hooligan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest

5 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Taiga

SB:
4 Duress
3-4 Engineered Plague
2-3 Null Rod
2-3 Krosan Grip
1-2 Yilix Jailor
1 Goblin Pyromancer
0-1 Tin-street Hooligan
0-1 Big Game Hunter

I'm thinking of cutting 1 Confidant 1 Mongoose and 1-2 Tinder Wall and a Forest for 3-4 Mogg Fanatic and a 4th Taiga though.

AngryTroll
08-31-2007, 03:01 AM
My RGBSA list is a page back or so.

Recent thoughts:
FTK is getting worse. This makes me sad. Bone Shredder is getting better. Boo Tarmofat.

Yay Tarmogoyf. The deck's best way to win is to get a Survival online, and pump out a million Goyfs. Ravenous Baloth is getting worse, as well as FTK, because Goyf provides more fat for half the cost, and Red in general seems to be on the downswing, especially around here. If you see burn, leave in the Baloths. Otherwise....well, Goyf is just better a lot of the time.

Boo Tarmogoyf. Other people's Goyfs block our Goyfs. The nerve. That's what FTK is for, after combat, or Bone Shredder, to force through the damage. I am undecided as to which creature is actually better. If a FTK is countered after you attack, you might have to just take the hit from the opposing Goyf. Frowns. On the other hand, casting Bone Shredder before combat give you all the relevent information before you swing. Back to the first hand, though, FTK is a 4/2. But again on the second hand...Goyf provides most of the fat the deck needs. Extra fat is always great to have on hand, but where is the line between extra fat and extra speed (Boneshredder)?

Sword of Fire and Ice is back in my list as a 2-of for now, because my meta is overrun with Thresh, Landstill, and UW control. SoFI makes my Goyfs bigger than Thresh's Goyfs, and is a bomb against the Wrath-happy decks here.

Bombs in the deck: Survival x 4, Burning Wish x 4, Goyf x 4, Sword of Fire and Ice x 2,
Honorable Mentions: All those guys that nail other Goyfs: Boneshredder x2, FTK x (2-3), and Rofellos x 1.
Disruption, for the bombs: Duress x 3, Cabal Therapy x 3

frogboy
08-31-2007, 03:59 AM
In a deck with approximately one hundred million creatures, why is Therapy not a four of in the main? In Extended our aggro-loam lists had a 3/2 Therapy/Duress split for a while before we realized Therapy was basically just better and went to 4/1.

from Cairo
08-31-2007, 04:27 AM
I agree Therapy x4, Duress xWhatever (personally boarding x4, but if one has room they seem ok in a 2-3 of MD).

Tarmogoyf combat is yet another reason why Mogg Fanatic is nuts. Swing with Goyf, opp blocks with Goyf, 2nd main phase, tutor Fanatic, own him for :g: :r:, rather than 5 mana of tutoring/casting Kavu.

I cut the Masticore/Quirion Ranger combo and another card (debating: 3rd FTK, Rofellos (due to lack of expensive cards, only 5 casted cards over 2 mana), 4th Confidant, 4th Tinder Wall) for Mogg Fanatic x3:
-Pro-Red isn't around that much
-Masticore is very mana intensive if not set up
-Quirion Ranger sucks on his own alot of the time
-Lackey on the play/draw solution
-Sacs to remove Bridges from Below
-Kills en-Kors and/or Illusionists

AngryTroll
08-31-2007, 12:57 PM
In a deck with approximately one hundred million creatures, why is Therapy not a four of in the main? In Extended our aggro-loam lists had a 3/2 Therapy/Duress split for a while before we realized Therapy was basically just better and went to 4/1.

Because the fourth Cabal Therapy is in the sideboard for Burning Wish to fetch. Against a lot of combo decks, Therapy is the best Wish target game one.

Mogg Fanatic is a great choice also. I hadn't considered him for the slot since before Goyf took off, but now his value has gone significantly up in the deck.

Zach Tartell
08-31-2007, 04:14 PM
I agree Therapy x4, Duress xWhatever (personally boarding x4, but if one has room they seem ok in a 2-3 of MD).

Tarmogoyf combat is yet another reason why Mogg Fanatic is nuts. Swing with Goyf, opp blocks with Goyf, 2nd main phase, tutor Fanatic, own him for :g: :r:, rather than 5 mana of tutoring/casting Kavu.

I cut the Masticore/Quirion Ranger combo and another card (debating: 3rd FTK, Rofellos (due to lack of expensive cards, only 5 casted cards over 2 mana), 4th Confidant, 4th Tinder Wall) for Mogg Fanatic x3:
-Pro-Red isn't around that much
-Masticore is very mana intensive if not set up
-Quirion Ranger sucks on his own alot of the time
-Lackey on the play/draw solution
-Sacs to remove Bridges from Below
-Kills en-Kors and/or Illusionists

Ok, first of all, you're way wrong. Quirion Ranger is totally a chick.

Secondly, I do believe that you might be right, in that dropping the numbers of rofellos is necessary (he's a 2-of ususally for me, on account of I like redundancy). Masticore just ins't the bomb you'd like him to be. I like running Triskellion in his place - no upkeep, slightly higher cost, and a 4/4 under humility (this is necessary). And he pumps goyf in the 'yard.

Just my two cents.

CynicalSquirrel
08-31-2007, 05:12 PM
I've been seriously considering just about overhauling this deck lately. In my opinion, the addition of Tarmogoyf really changed the deck a lot. For one thing, I've been less and less impressed with Flametongue Kavu, as I'm constantly finding that there aren't a ton of targets for it, and with the Tarmogoyfs in there the 4/2 body isn't all that necessary. I've been thinking of dropping those down to 2 or maybe even 1, and replacing it with cheaper removal guys like Big Game Hunter and Bone Shredder that can hit Tarmogoyfs.

I've also been constantly being less impressed by Burning Wish, and eventually I kept adding cards I wanted to the SB for certain matchups and only had like 4-5 wish targets, which was just a waste. So I'm currently trying a build without Wish, since I was just finding it too slow. I think upping the count on Tin Street Hooligan might be a good idea to compensate for not having the Wish -> Hull Breach strategy.

Anyways, those are just observations I've had on the deck lately. I'm still working on a list that is more well tuned.

from Cairo
08-31-2007, 08:51 PM
I like running Triskellion in his place - no upkeep, slightly higher cost, and a 4/4 under humility (this is necessary). And he pumps goyf in the 'yard.

6 mana is alot, especially given the match up he shines in, Goblins, will be attacking your mana base. I don't know, it might be the right call. Regardless, if dropping Masticore, some artifact creature probably needs to find it's way into the deck to have access to the easy +1/+1 for Goyf.

Nihil Credo
09-01-2007, 09:19 AM
I'm not that much of a Survival player, but in every deck I've tested Razormane Masticore has performed better than the original 'Core. Five damage of first strike plus three of "firstest strike" allows it to rule the combat phase like no other creature. The only time I've missed the original Masticore was 1) when an Exalted Angel or equipped Sea Drake was hitting in the air; 2) against Pernicious Deed.

troopatroop
09-01-2007, 08:17 PM
The whole point of Masticore was to dump mana into it. Rofellos and Ranger and Seedborn produced an obscene amount of mana, and Masticore was the most efficient way to use that mana.

Also imo, Masticore is just a better card on its own.

AngryTroll
09-02-2007, 01:54 PM
I've been seriously considering just about overhauling this deck lately. In my opinion, the addition of Tarmogoyf really changed the deck a lot. For one thing, I've been less and less impressed with Flametongue Kavu, as I'm constantly finding that there aren't a ton of targets for it, and with the Tarmogoyfs in there the 4/2 body isn't all that necessary. I've been thinking of dropping those down to 2 or maybe even 1, and replacing it with cheaper removal guys like Big Game Hunter and Bone Shredder that can hit Tarmogoyfs.



It sounds obvious...but Goyf really does fundamentally change how the deck plays.

Goblins, while always a difficult but winnable matchup, improves with Goyf, just like Goyf improved UGW Thresh's Goblins percentages.

In addition to that, the number of creatures that are in the deck for fat can drop. Unless I actually need the life, I always grab Goyf over Baloth or Kavu. He's just bigger, cheaper, and faster. I haven't even been setting up Rofellos as much as I used to. I mean, I only have one Squee...I can spend it grabbing an Anger and a Goyf and save a lot of set up time. Next turn, I grab another Goyf. After that, maybe the last two in the same turn.

The deck is a lot faster, and has a lot more early game with Goyf in it. Without Goyf, the deck still had an amazing late game, but the early game was SLOW while you set up mana and Survival. With Goyf, if you drop a bird into play on turn one, you start getting hasted Goyfs on turn three. Even without Bird, turn three you can find and cast a Goyf, turn four you can find Squee and Goyf, and turn five you find Anger and Goyf and go to town.

I mentioned it earlier, and Cynical Squirrel just mentioned it too....Flametongue Kavu is getting worse. He still kills Goyfs after combat, and Dark Confidant, and Negator, and Shade, and a whole list of creatures, but Bone Shredder (and soon Shriekmaw) do almost the same job. You certainly cannot cut Kavu, because of all of the Black creatures that need killing, but I find myself going for Boneshredder more often and beating through with Goyfs.

DragoFireheart
09-16-2007, 03:00 PM
How does Tarmogoyf fit into a RGBSA deck? How does he affect the mana curve? Do you take out some of the mana accels for Goyfs?

from Cairo
09-17-2007, 02:52 AM
Look at the past 2 pages of lists, he's been a part of most recent development of the deck. AngryTroll, lonelybaritone, and I all posted Goyf inclusive lists.


How does Tarmogoyf fit into a RGBSA deck?


It fits in 4 of the creature slots.



How does he affect the mana curve?


It generally lowers the mana curve, since its 2cc house and the old beaters were 4cc.



Do you take out some of the mana accels for Goyfs?


If one was running Werebear I certainly would replace it with Goyf. I don't see how using Goyf would incite someone to remove Birds, but if you keep your curve low there is less of a need for the secondary accelerators: Rofellos and Wall of Roots/Tinder Wall/Llanowar Elves.

DragoFireheart
09-17-2007, 07:09 PM
I had the idea to include thresh creatures [Mongoose and Bear] into the deck for quicker answers that grow as the game goes on.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7007

Xero
09-17-2007, 08:46 PM
I like running Triskellion in his place - no upkeep, slightly higher cost, and a 4/4 under humility (this is necessary). And he pumps goyf in the 'yard.

Just my two cents.

How is Triskelion a 4/4 under Humility? Humility stops comes into play abilities, so shouldn't Triskelion loose the counter making ability?

Zach Tartell
09-17-2007, 08:58 PM
How is Triskelion a 4/4 under Humility? Humility stops comes into play abilities, so shouldn't Triskelion loose the counter making ability?

Something about it being "Comes into play with" instead of "when it comes into play." Trust me, it works. Like how the clockwork things work. I almost wanted to run the clock work beetle (or whatever - the 0/0 with 2 +1/+1 counters) in our meta. Humility is pretty hard for survival to, y'know, win under.

Humility is really hard to play around. Grip helps, but isn't enough. It's reason enough to keep red for anger. Unlimited, hasty goyfs is an excellent way to beat control. 'scept, of course, if they have Echoes or something weak like that.

Mulletus
09-18-2007, 02:59 PM
I ran my old version of this deck at a local event and x-o'ed. I did change the sideboard to have graveyard hate , and main deck had some too. I played an exterpate, but I never drew it, lol. I think that card is amazing in a deck that can run with anything like this. I replaced some discard for the exterpate. I might drop my wishes, but they keep getting me out of jams. I dont know.... I went crazy recently but I keep winning magic with this deck.

MindTwiZt
09-21-2007, 07:29 PM
Hi,

I'm mostly reading on this forum, but now I want to write something about my favourite deck, since this thread looks so dead...

I played Gbw Survival for a while, but it got boring, because the deck feels somehow... slow... or clunky... even with Goyf you don't put enough pressure on your opponent, so I decided to speed it up. I removed all defensive cards (Wall of Blossom, Tribe Elder..) from my old list and ended up with this:

Maindeck:

4x Bayou
3x Savannah
2x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Mountain


4x Birds of Paradise
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Eternal Witness
1x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Spike Feeder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Bone Shredder

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Survival of the Fittest
2x Senseis Divining Top


Sideboard:

4x Duress
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Extirpate
2x Vindicate
2x Krosan Grip

(Don't think about the Prisons in SB. It was just a test if they can substitute Plagues, because Prisons are good in every Aggro-matchup, where Plagues only shine against Goblins. I declared this test as a failure the moment I was paired against Elves...)
I played the deck in the german "Bazaar of Wonders Tournament" (77 participants) and finished 7th with a 5-1-1 record:

1. round: Asault Loam (2:1)
2. round: Baseruption (1:1) //this deck is very popular in Germany
3. round: 2Land Belcher (2:1) //he played without EtW...
4. round: 8Pox (2:0)
5. round: Yin-Yang (2:0)
6. round: Elves (0:2)
7. round: Burn (2:0)

There are some things about the deck I'd like to discuss:

1. What do you think about the Spike Feeder ?
I play it because its cheap lifegain (and I wanted at least 2 lifegaining critters in the deck), it fits better to the mana curve, recurring it with Genesis is cheaper than Baloth, and last but not least: it gives me a way to deal with opposing Goyfs (mine are just bigger).

2. Should I play a 3rd Taiga (instead of a forest)?
Or otherwise, is 5 basics enough ? I never had the problem of not having a mountain when I had Anger, but I rarely had to fight massive Land Destruction (although I player against Pox and Sui).

3. Is Duress better in the MD that Therapy?
Since most of my creatures are needed on the board, I mostly don't want to flashback Therapy (loosing a Goyf/Confident...) is really hard. In my Gbw build, I hab no problems saccing a wall or Elder, but here...

4. Do you think Krosan Grip is necessary?
I rarely boarded it in, most of the time I preferred Vindicate, since nearly every card I play is a must-counter für Threshold- or Landstill-Decks, so Split Second is mostly irrelevant.

5. Should I play Pithing Needles?
With Belcher becoming more and more popular here, an early Needle should buy me enought time to either stop the combo or to beat face.

Tog
09-21-2007, 10:02 PM
As for your questions, here's what my experience tells me:

[1] If you're simply concerned about the life gain, I would probably use the tech which I saw Taco using earlier: Darkheart Sliver. Synergy with Harmonic Sliver and only costs two mana. However, the reason I run Ravenous Baloth or its G/W equivalent, Loxodon Hierarch, in the first place is that it doubles as a threat. I would only choose one of the following: Baloth, Hierarch, Feeder, or Darkheart. Take your pick.

[2]Your call. Sorry can't be of more help.

[3]Therapy by far. Thepary is the card I most like to see against decks like Landstill and has uses against Goblins too (unlike Duress). I usually hold off on Therapies until I attempt to resolve Survival. Playing one midgame often pulls two cards against control or Aggro-Control. Against Gobbos, if you live past the first turn Vial or Lackey, the next choice is Warchief or Ringleader depending on their curve. You still have a lot of cards to pitch to its Flashback even though you don't have STE or the Wall anymore.

Like the following:
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Bone Shredder
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Spike Feeder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
3x Eternal Witness
4x Birds of Paradise

[4]I've always felt that threat density wise, Survival is lacking. Thus, Survival has a weak control match-up. There are just a lot of bullets that don't do too much. There really isn't anyway to gain card advantage aside from resolving a Bob or Survival. That said, I don't think every card you play is must counter. Grip definitely helps ridding the board of Pernicious Deed, Counterbalance (the Top activation), and pesky Leyline of the Voids.

[5] Your choice. The combo match-up blows. I'd just given up on it though I'd seen somebody running Peacekeeper so EtW tokens can't attack. That does require you to hit your land drops and have Survival to search it out consistently. Just wait for Gaddock Teeg to help you out when Lorwyn becomes legal.

Hope this helps.
~Tog

from Cairo
09-21-2007, 11:57 PM
To be honest at this point Red just offers so little, I really question whether it warrants the splash, Anger and FTK... FTK is so mediocre right now, Shriekmaw + Big Game Hunter + Bone Shredder just seem much more solid. And while Anger is good, without must tap creatures like Goblin Welder or Tradewind Rider, it seems less necessary.

I'm leaning hard towards G/B/w or G/B/u, especially with Gadden Teeg, Shreikmaw and the "neo-Duress" all coming out.

Anarky87
09-22-2007, 02:08 AM
To be honest at this point Red just offers so little, I really question whether it warrants the splash, Anger and FTK... FTK is so mediocre right now, Shriekmaw + Big Game Hunter + Bone Shredder just seem much more solid. And while Anger is good, without must tap creatures like Goblin Welder or Tradewind Rider, it seems less necessary.

I'm leaning hard towards G/B/w or G/B/u, especially with Gadden Teeg, Shreikmaw and the "neo-Duress" all coming out.

I agree, GBw is about to get all the goods from Lorwyn. Maybe I don't mind the slowness of GBw, I actually find it rather fun, but then I've just switched over to it from Landstill. Which is like saying, "I need to take a break from strangling babies."

But to actually make a legit post, red does offer very little right now outside of Wish, Anger, and FtK, all of which are pretty weak compared with what you could be playing in Shriekmaw, Shredder, StP, etc. Good job on the finish though.

bigbear102
09-23-2007, 12:51 PM
Ok, here's the list that I got 3-0-2 with yesterday. I went 3-0, drew in, and lost to Dave Price in the mirror match in top 8. Here's the list:

4x Taiga
3x Bayou
3x Savannah
4x Forest
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath

4x Survival
4x STP
4x Cabal Therapy

4x Birds
1x Rofellos
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Squee
1x Genesis
1x Anger
1x Viridian Zealot (edited)
1x Tin-street Hooligan
3x MOGG FANATIC
3x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Boneshredder
1x BIG GAME HUNTER!!!
1x Razormane Masticore
1x Yixlid Jailer (never played anything where it was relevant)
2x Eternal Witness

SB:
3x Duress
4x Leyline (should be Crypt)
2x Grip
3x Engineered Plague
2x Yixlid Jailer
1x Magus of the Moon

I really like Big Game Hunter and Mogg Fanatic in here. Big Game Hunter is definitely a staple in my lists from here on out. He survivals into play and kills a man, he also acts as a pseudo Rootwalla early game. Fanatic is really nice as a cheap removal creature, and can totally wreck goblins.

I played :

Goblins-2-1
Blue Skies- 2-1
Goblins- 2-1
Draw
Draw
Survival (top 8) 1-2

from Cairo
09-24-2007, 02:53 AM
Fanatic is definitely nuts versus Goblins and gy Combo. I wish another color offered something remotely similar, because he's really the only appealing thing outside of a couple 1-ofs that would incline me to stay with Red.

@ Bigbear

Were Quirion Ranger and Viridian Shaman at all good?

You don't really have any tap effects that would make me think to include Quirion Ranger, obv with Rofelloes + Masticore or Tradewind Rider or Goblin Welder she's insane, but on her own she seems very underwhelming.

Viridian Shaman just doesn't seem worth it if you have Tin-Street already. I would think Harmonic Sliver would be alot better.

Also Yixlid seems like a lot better SB card, since its so situational. It's good against any Graveyard decks, but generally they will have gone off by the time you get Survival into play, and fetch Yixlid and cast him. Also he's horrible synergy with the MD, shutting off Squee, Anger and Genesis- so you really never want to cast him as 'a random dood' to just swing with (like you can get away with doing with say Tin-Street or Anger or something). When working on the deck I ran 3 Boarded with the idea that you would board out the 3 gy cards for them and bank on getting him into play quick for the win. With 3-4 in the board you get a pretty good chance of open handing him and dropping it before they go off.

bigbear102
09-24-2007, 10:58 AM
Ok, first of all the Viridian Shaman was supposed to say Viridian Zealot. I always play Zealot over other enchantment removal. I like being able to sac and re-use my removal spells. He didn't do much today, but he is definitely worth the slot in my opinion.

Quirion Ranger is not a utility creature, he's a mana critter. I only play 20 land, and having him around makes it like I play 22. He untaps birds and gets my land drop for the turn if I didn't make a real one. He also makes Rofellos go nuts. She's always close to the chopping block when I add something, but right now I really like her. She's also handy at untapping so I have a blocker, something not a lot of people think of.

Jailer was very underwhelming, and something that will not stay in the MD. I thought there would be a lot more GY combo there, but it was just one lonely breakfast deck, which I didn't even play.

I still think that red has a very important role in the deck. I played a 1-of FTK, and still wanted more of him. Sure, he doesn't eat Goyf, but he does eat everything else. Anger is also too important I believe. If only in the control matchups. He lets you avoid mass removal so well. You just keep dropping threats that beat, and you don't care if they die, as long as they get those few points in beforehand. Without haste landstill matches would be much harder.

from Cairo
09-24-2007, 05:50 PM
Viridian Zealot makes more sense. If playing Black and White in Survival though I still think I would lean toward the Sliver, especially with the duo Harmonic Sliver and Necrotic "Vindicate" Sliver (was mentioned in the archtype thread, I think Tao or Taco brought it up it was in one of the control lists they were brainstorming), they cover pretty much all the utility removal you would need and have synergy both together and with Genesis.

For Ranger I didn't really see a huge problem with it, it just seems like its a card thats not good on its own, and is mediocre when you don't have something busted to do with Rofellosing a ton of mana. It does have good synergy with Birds though, and can be strong against Wasteland, and making your land drops work more for you. It's not a bad slot, just was wondering whether you found it helping much. It seems very auto include in some configurations (when running it to double tap effects) and much less so in others.

Solpugid
09-25-2007, 04:13 AM
I don't understand the harmonic sliver over viridian zealot arguement.

Zealot does his thing for one more mana, and doesn't stick around afterwords, but is a much better beater for if you draw it and just need a creature, and won't randomly kill your own survival. And, as mentioned, it gives you a built-in way of reusing it.

Maveric78f
09-25-2007, 06:34 AM
I'm not an expert of survival, but harmonic deals with CotV@2 and has more chance to evade counterbalance. It's also pithing needle proof and 1 mana less.

Swing4Five
09-25-2007, 06:55 AM
How important have you found white to be in your matchups?
I had been thinking about it, but adding in color number four makes me scared of wastelands, and kills Tribe Elder recursion.

bigbear102
09-26-2007, 11:10 AM
The only reason to play white for me is STP. Hierarch is a nice bonus, but STP is the reason. It gives you 4 more outs to Lackey (less important now), and stops Breakfast and some versions of Ichorid from stomping you. It is also really good in any aggro matchup, which oddly seems to be the majority of matches I see at large tournaments now. And when 4 of the top 8 slots at the last tourney I went to were survival, having stp is nice.

Another reason I run Ranger, to protect all the duals I throw out there. I only play 4 basics, so playing around Waste is crucial.

@chalice and counterbalance: Chalice is not seen that often anymore, at least not at 2. If it comes back, I'll start running Keldon Vandals again. Counterbalance can be a problem I guess, but Boneshredder kills everything but mongeese in gro, and I play my own geese, with genesis and 2 witness. Counterbalance is hard to beat when they get top and balance by turn 3, but that is hard to do, and I can still win even if they get it, because they haen't been achieving threshold and/or playing threats.

I guess those 2 cards don't scare me mainly because of the decks they would be played in. Survival has a good match against gro and other aggro-control decks in general, even without survival in play.

AngryTroll
09-26-2007, 10:23 PM
White offers Swords to Plowshares and Loxodon Heirarch, while
Red offers Burning Wish, Anger, and Flame Tongue Kavu.

Running straight Black Green strengthens the manabase, and something like Dark Confidant can be squeezed into those four color spots.

Is Swords to Plowshares really worth the White splash over Red? Between Bone Shredder, Flame Tongue Kavu, and Burning Wish, doesn't Red offer enough removal? It can be argued that black alone offers enough removal, but I want either FtK or StP around to off creatures like Dark Confidant and Disciple of the Vault.

Baloth is not as good as Loxodon Heirarch, but it does recur more easily with Genesis, and the matches that are significantly different between the two seem few and far between (burn?).

Burning Wish is amazing in some matchups, like Angel Stompy, Meathooks, Landstill, and the mirror; and it is certainly not dead against Thresh (Deathmark) and Combo (Cabal Therapy), although it is rather slow; against Ichorid, it can fetch Pyroclasm to kill one of your creatures and wipe out Zombie tokens.

Mogg Fanatic is also particularly strong against Ichorid, for the record, and again is a red card.

Swords to Plowshares does stop Goblin Lackey cold, but the Treefolk Harbringer is an interesting option against Lackey. While putting a land on top of the deck is not always a great plan, it is not often a bad plan either. Especially in the mid to late game, I find myself wanting to draw land to increase my options during a turn.

Overall, I am not convinced that splashing White is a necessary advancement to the deck. The benefits are neat, and worth looking into, but I believe that Red still offers enough to hold its own.

I am sure someone will suggest replacing Cabal Therapy with the new Llorowyn Duress, but I think Therapy is strictly better because of the high number of creatures we play.

Phantom
09-26-2007, 10:38 PM
Don't forget about Doran, which is a solid addition to WGB.

Edit: Also, I'm not that familiar with Survival, but wouldn't it want to run Teeg?

AngryTroll
09-27-2007, 02:54 AM
Doran and Teeg are two excellent reasons to run white; you are correct. I was looking at the lists posted recently and not seeing much reason to run white.

Especially with Treefolk Harbringer, who also certainly deserves testing, Doran looks sexy. On the other hand...he gives Goyf +1/+0, give the untested Harbringer +3/+0....is a dumb beater going to make the cut in a deck that is tight on slots for dumb beaters, and already running 4 Goyfs? Quite possibly, but by no means automatically.

Swing4Five
09-27-2007, 10:50 AM
bigbear, have you put much thought into updating your list for post-Lorwyn?

At a minumum it seems Shriekmaw should replace Bone Shredder.

Thoughtseize looks as if it might also make a nice addition, as it can equally disrupt combo or premptively send a beater to the bin. Thoughtseize might even be able to move in on StP's role, though it doesn't stop a lackey on the play.

Gaddock Teeg in an influence for keeping a white presence. The question is more where to put him. Either stock the maindeck with a full force of Kithkin Advisors in order to windmill slam him down asap, or have him waiting in the wings of the sideboard (with a possible single maindeck tutor target), bring the contingent in vs combo, control and/or aggro-control and then windmill slam him down.
Or is he completely unnessecary?

The last card that caught my eye as a possible inclusion was Masked Admirers.

Masked Admirers 2GG
Creature - Elf Shaman
When Masked Admirers comes into play, draw a card.
Whenever you play a creature spell you may pay GG. If you do, return Masked Admirers from your graveyard to your hand.
2/2

Probably too expensive for it's effect but it seems worth considering. Has a nice trick in using his ability while evoking a Shriekmaw.

Doran seems cute, trading 'goyfs is a better proposition for the deck that can recur them, and he completely hoses Piledrivers.
Warrants consideration, but I doubt he makes the cut.
He won't be taking an efficient beater slot from 'goyf or 'goose, and his manacost could sometimes prove prohibitive.

Mulletus
09-27-2007, 11:38 AM
To be honest at this point Red just offers so little, I really question whether it warrants the splash, Anger and FTK... FTK is so mediocre right now, Shriekmaw + Big Game Hunter + Bone Shredder just seem much more solid. And while Anger is good, without must tap creatures like Goblin Welder or Tradewind Rider, it seems less necessary.


What about must block creatures? Like Mongoose? How many Big Game Hunters and Bone Shredders does it take to block a Goose with Thresh? FTK is as must have because of it's power. I too have added the BGH, and it saved me from a Goyf. The problem is I would have never gotten him out without the haste that red gives me. The more Green-black this gets... the better off you are playing The Rock.

MindTwiZt
09-27-2007, 11:54 AM
I'm not sure about Shriekmaw. In my current 4color build, I would prefer Bone Shredder because of Dark Confidant, and it can be used for flashbacking Therpay (or at least as a chumper).
Gaddock Teeg seems like an auto-include for this deck, since it doesn't affect our deck and shuts down most combo-finishers, cards like FoF, Wrath/Damnation, Geddon or Smokestacks.
I have been thinking about Burning Wish/Glittering Wish, too, but I'm unsure if its good in my tempo-oriented build, since it will take me 2 turns to use it. But on the other side, it would increase the flexibility of the deck.
Some random thoughts about the wishboards:

Burning Wish Toolbox
-- Pyroclasm
-- Crime / Punishment
-- Hull Breach
-- Duress
-- Vindicate
-- Damnation
-- Earthquake
-- Haunting Echoes

Glittering Wish Toolbox
-- Crime / Punishment
-- Pernicious Deed
-- Hull Breach
-- Savage Twister
-- Grave-Shell Scarab
-- Loxodon Hierarch
-- Harmonic Sliver
-- Vindicate
-- Necrotic Sliver

Some other thoughts about some additional creatures for the board:

Magus of the Moon: It might sound absurd included him, but we mostly run enough basics to play around him, and decks like Threshold, Landstill and others are significantly slowed down with him, and some Combo-Decks (TES, Iggy-Pop, Ichorid or Breakfast) will mostly be unable to handle him fast enough.
Grave-Shell Scarab: A powerful, self-recurring threat. He's very good in most control-matchups, since he can only be extirpated.
Avalance Riders: just a thought, recurring LD may be ok, but it seems to slow.

bigbear102
09-27-2007, 04:02 PM
I haven't yet built anything post-lorwyn, as its legality is over a month away, and I'm busy planning my tourney and going to school.

I will probably be playing Shriekmaw, Doran, and Teeg though. Doran makes your BoP's 1/1 flyers. This can actually be relevent in a lot of matches. Teeg makes most other decks worse while not affecting yours. I see no reason not to run 1 MD and a couple more in the board. Testing will obviously have to be done to see what works. Thoughtseize is an interesting card, but needs to be tested thoroughly. Currently I have 12 non-creature cards in the deck- Survival, Therapy, and STP. Seize might be added, but I dunno, it isn't any better than the duresses in the board because they come in against combo and control. I don't think it's any better than Therapy, cuz I play 29 creatures. Again, something to be tested.

Once I start testing Lorwyn, red is going to be experimented for the drop, but it's not very likely. I agree with Mulletus that it is just too important. I am also really liking the Fanatics that I recently added.

StP is a personal favorite of mine. Once I started playing with it I fell in love. I can't see myself cutting it any time in the near future. It just deals with too much. It gives you outs against randomness like reanimator and extra outs against breakfast and the mirror.

Swing4Five
09-27-2007, 04:36 PM
I can't see myself ever dropping red if only for Mogg Fantastic. I had been trying a list without anger on the principle of trying to keep the count of cards that are useless (or close enough to it) without Survival to a minimum, but almost every game it seems I have some point where I'm looking at my creature configuration and thinking "if I could get Anger I could do this...." So he's coming off the bench and getting back in the game.

I guess I'm going to suck it up and go 4 color for StP (and replace my Spike Feeder with the Elephant I suppose). I had been hurting for outs agianst turn 2 and 3 hasty Dread Returned monstrosities and random recurring creature effects.

Buying Savannah's if I bring this to a in person tournament.... ugh.

Edit: I forgot to ask earlier, could you give your thoughts on Razormane?

Goaswerfraiejen
09-30-2007, 12:10 PM
I just played against a cool version with Duplicants (and Welders and Sundering Titans). It looked like it had great potential, despite some obvious weaknesses (the graveyard, for one--still, it looked solid). Perhaps there's some food for thought there.

Swing4Five
09-30-2007, 10:21 PM
I just played against a cool version with Duplicants (and Welders and Sundering Titans). It looked like it had great potential, despite some obvious weaknesses (the graveyard, for one--still, it looked solid). Perhaps there's some food for thought there.

You faced Welder Survival, threads here.
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6435

bigbear102
09-30-2007, 11:47 PM
Buying Savannah's if I bring this to a in person tournament.... ugh.

Edit: I forgot to ask earlier, could you give your thoughts on Razormane?

You coming to the EPIC DLD? I know some people from Mass are coming down, and you can probably get Savannahs as low as 9th place depending on turnout.

As to Razormane Masticore, I played it the other day, and only ever used it for pumping goyf, once on my opponent's so that BGHunter could kill it. I never actually cast it, and I think I might go back to the regular Core, as it is better in the mirror I think, killing mana critters asap, and more than one.

Jaynel
10-02-2007, 05:03 PM
Are any of the Evoke creatures worthwhile? Wispmare nukes enchantments for W and Ingot Chewer does the same to artifacts for R. Shriekmaw is obviously good and will replace Big Game Hunter.

from Cairo
10-02-2007, 05:48 PM
Shriekmaw will probably replace Bone Shredder; Big Game Hunter's ability to be cast at instant speed still makes him a worthwhile slot against Breakfast imo.

bigbear102
10-02-2007, 11:07 PM
Depending upon what you are playing, the artifact and enchantment evokers could make the cut. Wispmare seems pretty ehh to me, costing 3 and only hitting enchantments

Mulletus
10-03-2007, 03:00 PM
I don't like the idea of making changes to the deck to make the threshold matchup better. It already has a great threshold matchup, and if it aint broke don't fix it. I feel it only hurts the matchups you don't have a good shot of winning all the time. I played goblins three times at my last big event, and magus of the moon and big game hunter werent all they were cracked up to be. Neither was all my discard. Shreikmaw seems ok, but only if I bust out the winding canyons again.

Jaynel
10-03-2007, 04:46 PM
I think Big Game Hunter is intended to be used against huge hasty Sutured Ghouls. If you have a handful of creatures and an active Survival, you can take out the big man for BGG.

It also nukes Goyfs, but that's just a perk.

Lone Signal
10-04-2007, 01:09 AM
I'm trying to retool my survival deck, but I'm still not sure if I'm happy with the builds with the current metagame in mind.

Couple of inquiries:

What are opinions on still using the Saffi/Champ/Caller combo post-Lorwyn? I like having the option to combo off, but it's just so vulnerable. And I tend to get carried away trying to set up the combo rather than trying to answer other situations such as board control and such. But on the other hand, it can speed-win games where I wouldn't have won otherwise, and it can make my opponent take extra precautions against the combo, giving me a bit more breathing room.

Also, Vials. I don't see them being used anymore. What gives? It synergizes well with Survival, letting me dig for the creature that I can immediately vial out. It's been doing really well for me.

And Slivers. I think I'm going with 2 Harmonic, 1 Necrotic, and 1 Darkheart (maybe sideboard this one). The Necrotic/Darkheart is pretty new to me, what's been the result for people who has tried them? Necrotic seems slightly expensive, but it gives me some options against certain matchups, if anything it takes Goyf out. Darkheart's a complete toss-in, since almost everything can be done better by the Loxodon peanut, but I'm just giving it a test-run for the other slivers' sake.

Went off on a ramble there. Anyways, thoughts?

MindTwiZt
10-04-2007, 07:30 AM
I'm also trying the sliver theme in my deck using 1 Harmonic, 1 Necrotic and 1 Darkheart sliver. The synergy between them is too good to not test it. Maybe I'll have a second Harmonic in the board because of Stax, which has become quite succesful here.
The Saffi-Combo ist way too slow for me, it requires to assemble 3 creatures, it needs 7 mana, and its vulnerable to counters. It may work better with Vials, but its still fragile. I prefer getting 3 Goyfs and beat face.
I think the Vials are not needed anymore, since our big beaters only cost 2. With lots of FTK and Hierarchs / Baloths they are better, but I think they're just outdated.

Swing4Five
10-04-2007, 10:15 AM
@ Lone Signal & MindTwiZt
That combo is horrendous to assemble and extremely fragile.

Slivers:
Darkheart is trumped by the Loxodon with immediate lifegain and fattness.

Necrotic is in 2 of your splash colors and requires an insane amount of mana investment, just use Bone Shredder/BGH/Harmonic/V Zealot.

Harmonic and Zealot are debatable, I prefer the Zealot as he doesn't require white mana and is recurrable via his self-sacrifice.

@ Mulletus
Magus is a one-of sideboard card and BGH has applications in almost every matchup outside of IGGY/Belcher which are on the decline due to Breakfast, if these are the only changes you are refering too I don't see how they could have affected your Gob's matchup so badly. I also don't see why canyons are needed for Shreikmaw if they aren't for Bone Shredder...

@ Jaynel
the W and R evokes may get a sideboard slot each if the expected metagame calls for them, Zealot covers both their jobs in the main color, although at quadruple the cost. I'm replacing the Bone Shredder slot with Shriekmaw and keeping the BGH, for the reasons you later posted.

@ bigbear
I unfortunately won't be making it out to this DLD. If I did manage to make it out there I'd have to pick up a set of duals of one kind or another... unless I cut Thresh to straight UG.
I am hoping to make it out to one of your Epic events, you seem to have an amazing Legacy scene out there, luckily we've got an awesome Vintage gauntlet to hold me over. :tongue:

mnellsae
10-23-2007, 10:32 AM
Has anybody tried Sneak Attack? The goddamn :3::r: is too high, but if you could actually get it online, everything from there on out would only cost :g::r:, could be done at instant speed, could not be countered (except for Pithing Needle, or delayed with Stifle, I guess), and you can easily splash off-color utility creatures.

Anything you put in the graveyard that you need again, it's just :g::r: for a Loaming Shaman or Eternal Witness, and you're back in action.

Big Game Hunter
Harmonic Sliver
Flametongue Kavu
Shriekmaw
Sundering Titan (use at your own risk)
Magus of the Moon
Draining Whelk
Goblin Sharpshooter
Darksteel Colossus (the best finisher, recurs himself automatically)
And for the truely obnoxious, Nicol Bolas

I've fooled around with it a little, but the deck is nearly crippled unless you can get both enchantments in play :frown:. I have a big notion that this ideas falls into the "beware of cool things" category.

It also feels like if you can live long enough to get the engine online, you probably could have just won via the normal Survival routes...

Any ideas on how to make it more consistent?

adrieng
11-01-2007, 06:31 PM
why not a green black blue version of survival here is what i am testing:

4 tarmogoyf
4 vinelasher kudzu
4 dark confidant
4 shriekmaw
4 surival of the fittest

disrupt

4 duress/thoughseize
4 spell snare/daze (i prefer spell snare)
4 force of will

4 brainstorm
1 zealoth
1 tombstalker
1 big hunter
1 squee goblin nabab

mana base
4 polluted delta
4 wooded foothils
2 windswepth heath
3 bayou
3 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 forest
1 swamp
1 island


No sideboard yet but this deck is really amazing in testing ...
All the cards are bomb spells and must be countered.
The problem could be the mana base.

Zach Tartell
11-01-2007, 06:36 PM
I count 12 blue cards. To go with force of will. First problem.

Second problem? You have 9 5+cc cards in a deck with 4 psuedo-scrye effects, and you're running four confidants.

In short, no. Say no to this deck.

Nihil Credo
11-01-2007, 06:56 PM
It's very easy to solve both problems. For the first, cut the Duress slot for more counters/cantrips, and add a couple of blue critters (Wonder and Tradewind Rider being the first that come to mind). For the second, just don't play Dark Confidant like every other build of Survival does; I don't think it's needed, really.

AngryTroll
12-17-2007, 06:08 PM
There hasn't been any discussion of the deck in a while, and there are a few card choices that seem pretty similar in power level. So here is what I have, along with the outstanding ideas/card choices/considerations that are relevant.


4 Birds
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Shriekmaw
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Darkheart Sliver
2 Ravenous Baloth

1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos
1 Tin Street Hooligan

4 Thoughtsieze/Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Burning Wish

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Reanimate
1 Deathmark
1 Hull Breach
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Anarchy
1 Ruination
1 Massacre
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague


Lingering Questions/Design Considerations:
Thoughtsieze: -4 Duress, +4 of these. I tested them for a while, but most of the time I was getting things Duress grabs anyways. Play them if you want; they are probably better overall. If you plan on playing against Goblins, this is even easier. The life loss doesn't even seem too bad, as there aren't that many fetchlands and Baloth and Darkheart Sliver are mainboard.

Mogg Fantastic: I played him for a while. Good against Breakfast and Goblins, Ichorid and Angel Stompy. Food for throwing at Goyfs if they run into each other. Do they deserve a slot? Probably. Where? Are they better than the things they take out? I am unsure.
-1 Shriekmaw, -1 Duress, -1 Burning Wish, +3 Fanatics (?)

Magus of the Moon: Amazing. 2 or 3? More?

Dark Confidant: Amazing....but in this deck? Shriekmaw x3, FtK x1, Genesis x1, Anger x1, Baloth x1-2...about a quarter of the deck costs 3 or more. Powerful? Absolutely. With the added number of Shriekmaws, I've removed him, but that may not be the right decision. If you run Thoughtsieze, the decision seems even more lopsided.
Another thing that makes me hesitate about cutting more threats from the deck for Bob is his CC. Right now, Counterbalance nails Survival, Burning Wish (our enchantment removal), Tarmogoyf (our "lets ignore the enchantment and beat face" element), Tin Street Hooligan (so even if SotF is down, it won't work for long), and other random dudes. Adding another bomb to the deck is always awesome, but Bob falls prey to the exact same thing that hits the other bombs in the deck. As Thresh is the most played deck of the moment, I think adding Bob is going to make the match even harder than it needs to be.

Loaming Shaman: I really like this guy. Solid against Landstill, mediocre most other places because you run Goyfs and Survivals to find them. He was much, much better (mainboard worthy) before Goyf, but now he doesn't even find space in my sideboard anymore.

Quirion Ranger: Should there be one main? Probably. Is it significant enough to find room for? Maybe.

White: White offers StP, Loxodon Heirarch, and Doran. Loxodon Heirarch is better than Baloth, and Swords is better than FtK or Mogg Fanatic. Doran is pretty sweet...but he's just a beater. Is white worth losing Anger and Burning Wish? I don't think so.

Phantom
12-17-2007, 06:47 PM
I only have a few thoughts since I'm not an avid Survival player. First would be about the wishboard. Don't you think it's worth it to split up the artifact and enchantement hate into Shatttering Spree and Reverant Silence? A) That wins you some matchups right there, and B) If you get your Wish off early enough, that allows you to get around Counterbalance and Chalice @2, both of which destroy you.

Is the Goblins matchup really so bad that 4 Plauges are the right call in the board? I would have expected Leylines with the multitude of graveyard decks floating around.

Happy Gilmore
12-17-2007, 07:08 PM
In testing I've been running this wish board:

1 Hull breach
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Primal Command
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown (I don't own Seeds of Innocence and I'm not convinced its better than meltdown anyway)
1 Regrowth
1 Tsunami
1 Chainers Edict

I cut the Boom/Bust because I felt there was no situation where I could resolve a Boom/Bust and couldn't simply win with Haunting Echoes instead. 7 discard spells helps it resolve a lot easier. Other than that I feel the wish board Brian made was perfect. I need to get my hands on Seeds of Innocence so I can see if it is indeed better than Meltdown.

AngryTroll
12-17-2007, 07:31 PM
Is the Goblins matchup really so bad that 4 Plauges are the right call in the board? I would have expected Leylines with the multitude of graveyard decks floating around.

No, not by itself, but EPlague must be removed before Breakfast can win, stops Ichorids, and is better than Shriekmaw and FtK against Belcher. It even nails Disciple of the Vault, which Shriekmaw can't do. Breakfast, Ichorid, and Goblins are all decks that RGBSA can use a boost against, and EPlague does it against all of them. The other card for that slot that switch in and out are more Pyroclasms.

As for splitting up Hull Breach, sometimes yes. On the other hand, if you resolve BWish against Counterbalance in the late game, you can resolve Hull Breach the same turn to nail Counterbalance and Needle. I've won games off of Planar Void and Pithing Needle both dying, but lost games when I needed Reverent Silence against Enchantress.



1 Primal Command


When and how often do you find yourself wishing for this? And which two do you choose? I've seen this in boards before, but was uncertain as to how often it would actually get wished for. It's certainly a lot of flexibility....but for 4RGG it seems expensive. It looks really cool, but how often is it that cool?



1 Tsunami


I run Ruination in this slot, because against Thresh you still nuke all of their lands, but you also get the Manlands in Landstill. You do nail some of your lands, but when you start the match, you know you have Ruination and that it might be the best wish target, and they don't know that. In game two, Thresh can do more about it, but Landstill really can't (except saving a counter for it).

Di
12-17-2007, 07:41 PM
@AngryTroll


Magus of the Moon: Amazing. 2 or 3? More?

I'm happy with 2, but a 3rd could find it's way into the sideboard. In matchups it's really bad against, it's really bad. Also, I would adjust your manabase to support him better. I run a 4c manabase and can probably operate better under a Magus than you could in your current form. The best way to work with Magus properly is to maximize the number of basics and fetchlands and go down on duals. You can easily get away with 3 Taiga 3 Bayou, and run an additional fetchland and basic, or 2 fetchlands. You will almost always be better in a Magus situation with additional access to basics. My personal manabase is 8 fetchlands, 3 Bayou, 2 Taiga, 2 Savannah, 5 Forest, and I rarely have a problem with him. I'd also cut a basic Swamp for another Bloodstained Mire. Having 3 non-green lands in the deck can seriously be an issue. If it's a fetchland, so can still get the basic Swamp, but also have more access to green mana sources.

Dark Confidant: With Shriekmaw now being the best removal the deck has, it is difficult to justify Bob's inclusion. There are just too many high cc cards in the deck. Plus, the deck runs perfectly find without Survival these days; it's basically the Rock w/o Pernicious Deed.

Loaming Shaman: I personally find him incredibly weak. If you hit an opponent's graveyard, you're screwing with your own Tarmogoyfs, and in most cases, they won't have a very threatening situation in the yard, unless it's Ichorid, and you will most likely be dead by then. If it's yard hate you want, I'd much rather use Withered Wretch, Yixlid Jailer, or the best option, Extirpate.


Quirion Ranger: Should there be one main? Probably. Is it significant enough to find room for? Maybe.

This is debatable depending on how you build the deck. With Quirion Ranger, you can afford to drop a land (in your case go from 21 to 20), and open the possibility of Masticore as Rofellos would add abscene amounts of mana. He also fixes mana, protects from Wasteland, allows land drops, and adds mana with Birds, and keeps your Tarmogoyfs untapped so they block and smash. He is the tits. I personally have 2 Quirion Ranger in my deck now because he does sooo much, but it really comes down to personal preference and deck design.


1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter

I would replace FTK with Fire Imp. There is very rarely a time that the damage part is a concern, because almost nothing barring Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf has an ass > 2, and if they do, Shriekmaw will kill it. The fact that Fire Imp costs only 2R has made a significant impact on the deck. I also really dislike Big Game Hunter. Perhaps it's just me, but he just doesn't cut it against anything not Sutured Ghoul or Tarmogoyf. I'd much rather have something that can kill everything, like Shriekmaw.


1 Darkheart Sliver
2 Ravenous Baloth

Are all of these necessary? I think Baloth is getting a bit slow, and you can really find more effecient beater-to-mana ratio. I would stick with just one of them, or maybe a Darkheart and one Baloth, but I doubt you need them both.



White: White offers StP, Loxodon Heirarch, and Doran. Loxodon Heirarch is better than Baloth, and Swords is better than FtK or Mogg Fanatic. Doran is pretty sweet...but he's just a beater. Is white worth losing Anger and Burning Wish? I don't think so.

You can run white and keep red in the deck. I will post my decklist below, and I've had tremendous success with it. You do lose Burning Wish though, so I'm not sure how people feel about that. Doran sucks though. A generic beater that is difficult to cast is now worth playing with. White does give you access to Harmonic Sliver and Gaddock Teeg though, which is insanely convenient. In all honesty, the only reason I run white in the deck over RGB is because of the Harmonic/Darkheart combo. That little synergy has won me more matches than Tarmogoyf.


GBWr Survival

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Shriekmaw
1 Fire Imp
1 Masticore
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Darkheart Sliver

4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
5 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddok Teeg
2 Tsunami
2 Extirpate


I've had incredible success with this list for the last couple months. My only gripe is that I don't have Thoughtseize maindeck, but I perfer StP in the main so Tarmogoyf is never a threat and I have a much better aggro matchup. Seriously, the aggro matchup is phenomenal. 8 removal spells + Tarmogoyf + Nimble Mongoose = good times. Goblins is a near-autowin, especially post-board.

I don't miss Burning Wish really. The thing is, Counterbalance is incredibly popular now. Counterbalance @ 2 is a big fucking problem. The RGB lists have almost no way of getting around that, because Hull Breach costs 2 as well. That's why I've upped the Krosan Grip count to 3. Grip is one of the strongest cards in the format right now, because artifacts and enchantments happen to be ridiculously good atm. The rest of the sideboard is rather self-explanitory, but I do miss the 4th Thoughtseize. I just wanted the 2nd Teeg. But Extirpate is the nuts, and Tsunami is incredibly given we have like 60% islands. Plague is also a no-brainer. I've been tinkering with the idea of Engineered Explosives though. With a 4c manabase, and Birds, I can wipe out anything. Problem is my own board is so varied I'd be getting hit on my own. Oh well, testing will tell.

AngryTroll
12-17-2007, 07:56 PM
That list is darn sexy.

You don't seem to have access to white or black under a Magus of the Moon, besides Bird. Is that a problem? That's the reason for the high number of swamps in my list, because I still want to cast disruption and Shriekmaws under Magus.

How is the Thresh matchup? You are right; Counterbalance is becoming more and more a problem for a deck that packs its bombs into the 2cc slot. However, the biggest change from the RGB list to your list is -4 BWish, +4 StP, which costs 1....the other cc that Thresh owns with Counterbalance. You do get Harmonic Sliver, though, which owns Counterbalance.

How is the Landstill match? I imagine that it is still pretty solid.

Di
12-17-2007, 09:26 PM
That list is darn sexy.

You don't seem to have access to white or black under a Magus of the Moon, besides Bird. Is that a problem? That's the reason for the high number of swamps in my list, because I still want to cast disruption and Shriekmaws under Magus.

How is the Thresh matchup? You are right; Counterbalance is becoming more and more a problem for a deck that packs its bombs into the 2cc slot. However, the biggest change from the RGB list to your list is -4 BWish, +4 StP, which costs 1....the other cc that Thresh owns with Counterbalance. You do get Harmonic Sliver, though, which owns Counterbalance.

How is the Landstill match? I imagine that it is still pretty solid.

The access to white/black with Magus could be problematic at times, but I wouldn't drop him with the need for colored sources unless it would win me the game. If I have Survival though, I could easily tutor up a Bird and work off of that just fine, but so far I've almost never had an issue with losing the other colors because Magus is such a beating against the opponent, to the point where the other colors shouldn't be necessary. It just requires proper placement as to when you cast him.

The Threshold matchup is still above and beyond. The only card I worry about, only card, is Counterbalance. Tarmogoyf is a joke against a deck with 4 of their own + a ton of removal, and Nimble Mongoose can trade with mine. My list is basically the threat base of Threshold, but you still get the handful of other bombs. If you can Therapy/Harmonic a Counterbalance, you shouldn't have any problems at all. Post-board though I bring in Grips, Thoughtseizes, Extirpates, and Tsunami, so it goes to the point of overwhelming.

The Landstill matchup, although I haven't lost to it in a while, I feel is close even, but slightly favorable. It greatly depends on the start of the game for each player, even though you have so many tools to kill them. If they're able to handle your first 3-4 threats, they will eventually overwhelm you with card advantage. On the other hand, if you just resolve something like a turn 2 Survival, it is very difficult to lose. Magus doesn't make their life easier, and neither does Genesis. Post-board you have an incredible amount of tools to bring in depending on the build: Teeg for EE, Wog, FoW, FoF, etc; Thoughtseize for obvious; Tsunami for obvious; Extirpate because it is awesome; Krosan Grip if you expect Humility, Shackles, Deed, etc.

The only matchups I'm really worried about are combo decks, Humility decks, and (sadly) Goyf Sligh. Goyf Sligh can really be a problem if you're not able to establish a solid start. Otherwise the deck just overpowers everything else. It has everything aggro decks have but a robust engine along with it, and blue decks can't match the number of threats you have.

Swing4Five
12-18-2007, 09:18 AM
Wow that is a lot of sideboard action Di. Boarding is probably the weakest part of my game, I never know what to take out. Could you enlighten us on what you take out for all that boarded goodness?

Di
12-19-2007, 02:15 AM
Okays. :) For reference, the sideboard once again:

3 Thoughtseize
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tsunami
2 Extirpate

I'm not going to be re-posting the decklist; just click the back button. I'm not sure if you have any specific matchups in mind, but listed are the more general ones.

Threshold:
+3 Thoughtseize, + 3 Krosan Grip, +2 Tsunami, +2 Extirpate
-1 Darkheart Sliver, -1 Fire Imp, -1 Quirion Ranger, -1 Masticore, -2 Nimble Mongoose, -4 Swords to Plowshares

The splash color doesn't matter, as you board the same for all of them. The post-board plan is quite different than pre-board, as you play more of a disruption route than aggro. You abandon most of the creature removal in favor of other permanent removal. I find StP, although great at flinging opposing Goyfs, incredibly underwhelming here. You will always win a Tarmogoyf standoff as you have more creatures, and you still have removal with Shriekmaw. Nimble Mongoose loses a couple slots because it is the weakest creature left in the deck. Eternal Witness and Magus are insanely good in this matchup, Harmonic kills Counterbalance, and removing mana-producers from a deck running Daze is suicide. I find it ok though, as you still have an edge in dealing with their threats with your greater threat density. Thoughtseize is an obvious choice, board in all the Grips for CB, Top, and now Shackles is making an appearance, Extirpate is just amazing and I board it in basically every matchup, because removing all Tarmogoyfs or Counterbalances throws this over the top, and Tsunarmageddon is just great.

Goblins:
+3 Engineered Plague, +2 Extirpate
-2 Magus of the Moon, -1 Eternal Witness, -2 Cabal Therapy/ -1 Cabal Therapy + -1 Genesis/something else

This sideboarding depends on whether you won or lost game 1. If you're on the play game 2, I'd keep more Cabal Therapy so you have better shot at hitting Lackey, although Lackey isn't a huge concern with so many ways of dealing with it. Otherwise, remove one and possibly Genesis. I really don't like taking Genesis out of the deck, but there are very few instances in this match that I end up using him. Otherwise, something like the 2nd Witness or 2nd Quirion Ranger is acceptable. You need to keep Harmonic in the deck to deal with Vial, and Darkheart's life gain can prove to have a huge impact, so they stay. What you add is obvious. Plague is derf, and Extirpate hitting something like Ringleader or Warchief is huge.

Landstill:
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Tsunami, +2 Extirpate, +2 Gaddock Teeg
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Shriekmaw, -1 Fire Imp, -1 Masticore, -1 Darkheart Sliver, -1 Quirion Ranger, -1 Nimble Mongoose, -1 Birds of Paradise

This is probably the only matchup, or one of them, that I'd ever board out a Bird. The reason behind this is that the match is much more based on the late-game than early, so I'm not striving to get that huge push in the beginning. It's nice, yes, and being able to explode off the bat can be a huge advantage, but this match is won generally by overwhelming them with bombs. Stuff like Nimble Mongoose is incredibly hard for them to deal with, even moreso than Tarmogoyf, and especially when they recur or are in multiples. Despite that, I need to remove one for room purposes. The rest of the slots are too important to lose, but it isn't a huge loss as you can honestly ride victory on the back of a single recurring Mongoose. Harmonic stays in despite not dealing with Humility thanks to Crucible, Deed, Shackles, Hoofprints, and all the other ugly shit out there. Stuff going in is basically going to be the same for all blue decks, sans Teeg. Stopping half their deck is really, really good.

Mirror/Survival:
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Extirpate
-1 Darkheart Sliver, -2 Magus of the Moon, -1 Quirion Ranger, -3 Nimble Mongoose, -1 Eternal Witness

This match isn't really worth going too far in depth to. It's just a war of attrition, and whoever can deal with the other person's Survival and stick them first. In this match I aggressively mull until I find I way to deal with Survival or have it myself because the match can be so lop-sided. Mongoose is boarded out because you need to keep the disruption package to maximize the odds of hitting Survival, and need to keep all the removal for obvious reasons. I keep one in though, as an insurance policy in case I have the opportunity to use GG and Survival for a hasty 3/3. I'd like to keep more in the deck, but it's just difficult space-wise.

Combo (Storm decks/Belcher)
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Engineered Plague, +2 Extirpate, +2 Gaddock Teeg, +3 Krosan Grip (Belcher)
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Shriekmaw, -1 Fire Imp, -1 Masticore, -1 Darkheart Sliver, -2 Nimble Mongoose, -2 Magus of the Moon (Belcher)

These matchups aren't really worth talking about too far in depth either, as they are more luck-based. Either they go nuts turn 1 or something, or they don't. You just board in everything you can and pray for a turn 1 discard turn 2 Teeg hand or something. You just need to get lots of disruption and apply the heavy Tarmogoyf beats if you can.

I'm going to leave it at here for now, but if you want any other sideboard strategies for matchups just lmk. Also feel free to comment, question, challenge them as well. If there are better strategies, I'd love to know, because although I'm well-versed with the deck, I have tremendous difficulty sideboarding as well.

adrianthemagicman
12-26-2007, 04:56 PM
:tongue: There are different variations to this deck... A very strong deck indeed, and is more consistent and a little more vicious than survival madness. My question, and the reason for this post is.......Why don't all of these decklists include atleaset 2 umezawa's Jitte?...i love being able to equip my confidant(who is a 2/1)to a Jitte....All of the sudden confidant is a threat, swinging for 2, then 6 and so forth.. A block to the confidant is not going to hurt you, let it die after turn 5.....you'll have counters on the Jitte for creatures that matter in the later game..... PEACE!

FoolofaTook
12-26-2007, 07:30 PM
I keep looking at the Survival lists and wondering if Oath of Ghouls would not be as strong or stronger than Survival of the Fittest.

You can take the basic creature list and find a way to get 4 Street Wraiths in there and you have a superior draw engine that can get just silly once an Oath is put into play.

Di
12-26-2007, 07:47 PM
How exactly is killing yourself to cycle cards for random draw superior, as opposed to, say, simply using green mana to access your entire deck at will? At least with Dark Confidant you might not lose life, and most builds aren't running him either.

FoolofaTook
12-26-2007, 08:28 PM
How exactly is killing yourself to cycle cards for random draw superior, as opposed to, say, simply using green mana to access your entire deck at will? At least with Dark Confidant you might not lose life, and most builds aren't running him either.

Well, with the number of creatures in the deck you're very likely to start seeing an extra creature a turn along about turn 4 or so. The extra creature is not random but a choice of the subset of creatures you've managed to put in the yard to that point.

Street Wraith basically turns into Dark Confidant at a fixed cost of 2 life per draw once he's in the yard and Oath of Ghouls is in play and he helps maintain the requirement of having more creatures in the yard than your opponent.

Street Wraith helps you find key cards, getting you to Oath of Ghouls faster than you'd find Survival of the Fittest and then helps you recycle the nasty stuff in your yard that the opponent actually manages to counter or destroy without removing from the game.

It's definitely a different angle than Survival and maybe I shouldn't have inserted it into a Survival thread. It's just a really nasty effect with the kind of creature roster that RGBSA runs.

I suspect Streetwraith would probably replace Nimble Mongoose, although I'm not 100% certain on that. You have to have the BoP to cast the creatures easily early on.

AngryTroll
12-27-2007, 04:42 AM
I really don't think that Oath of Ghouls is hot. Oath will find you creature that have found their way to the graveyard, like...Shriekmaw, Darkheart Sliver, and Street Wraith? Goyfs go farming, not to the graveyard. As Di said, Bob draws cards, and with the curve in the deck, he probably averages right around 2 life per turn. He isn't run.

The biggest difference is that Survival brings more threats to the party if you have a creature in hand and mana available. Oath brings them if you have more critters in the yard, and mana free. Sounds fair...except that Survival finds fat when you need fat, removal when you need removal, life when you need life, artifact and enchantment removal...you get the point. With Oath, you get whatever you have had so far.

Oath is certainly interesting, and it's another card I haven't seen in ages that probably could be played somewhere, but not in place of Survival. You could run it alongside Survival, if there was a sudden banning of Squee and the Horror. And it would still not be stellar.

FoolofaTook
12-27-2007, 12:35 PM
I really don't think that Oath of Ghouls is hot. Oath will find you creature that have found their way to the graveyard, like...Shriekmaw, Darkheart Sliver, and Street Wraith? Goyfs go farming, not to the graveyard. As Di said, Bob draws cards, and with the curve in the deck, he probably averages right around 2 life per turn. He isn't run.

The biggest difference is that Survival brings more threats to the party if you have a creature in hand and mana available. Oath brings them if you have more critters in the yard, and mana free. Sounds fair...except that Survival finds fat when you need fat, removal when you need removal, life when you need life, artifact and enchantment removal...you get the point. With Oath, you get whatever you have had so far.

Oath is certainly interesting, and it's another card I haven't seen in ages that probably could be played somewhere, but not in place of Survival. You could run it alongside Survival, if there was a sudden banning of Squee and the Horror. And it would still not be stellar.

I don't think it plays alongside Survival. Can't have eight enchantments in that deck with all of them wanting to land early.

Again, I probably brought it up out of turn in the thread. An Oath deck would be exactly that, not a Survival adaptation. It does produce an amazing amount of draw though for what it is, particularly if you are focussing on putting creatures in the yard yourself, then your opponents efforts basically just turn into a huge assist. The better their non-StP removal the fast your deck operates and WoG just fills the yard with things you want to pull out again.

hi-val
12-27-2007, 03:41 PM
Oversold Cemetary is probably better than Oath of Ghouls. The block Survival decks ran Oath of Ghouls a decent amount of the time, but this was pre-Squee. There are a bunch of neat interactions like Shriekmaw, but I'd wait to see what else could be Evoked before I would want to run something like Cemetary, especially over Recurring Nightmare (which doesn't see play at the moment).

quicksilver
01-08-2008, 01:53 PM
This is the list I made top 8 with last weekend at the winter wonderland.

4 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
4 WoodedFoothills
4 Windsweptheath
1 Savanah
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Burning Wish
4 Tarmagoyf
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Genesis
1 Indrik Stomphowler
2 Shriekmaw
1 Magus of the moon


SB:
3 Gaddok Teeg
1 Magus of the moon
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Damnation
1 Tsunami
1 Regrowth
1 Hull breach
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Chainer's edict
1 Anarchy
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Cabal Therapy


In retrospec, magus was great, I could have been playing a 3rd or 4th in the SB. Teeg no so great, I think one main is fine, but probably not any SB, legendary is teh suck.

I thought the main deck was great and would leave it just the way it was. There was very little goblins in the meta so I didn't miss engineered plague.

Damanation wasn't very good, there was only one time I even wanted it and I didn't even have the mana for it. For that meta I could have lived without anarchy or seeds, but those are cards that you'll really want if the situation comes.

Ewokslayer
01-08-2008, 02:10 PM
I don't how much value the deck gets out of the Sharpshooter and Shaman in the board.
Jailer might be a good option against a number of decks as well as the remaining Magus of the moons.
Perhaps somemore Maws in the board and Big Game Hunters to take care of Tombstalkers etc.
Or with the white splash a wispmare

Mulletus
01-08-2008, 03:23 PM
3 of the top 8 at the winter wonderland event were survival.... But it's not a deck to beat. :(

Ewokslayer
01-08-2008, 03:31 PM
3 of the top 8 at the winter wonderland event were survival.... But it's not a deck to beat. :(

It won't be until Feb. since the thing is updated monthly.

JDunkin00
01-08-2008, 07:53 PM
I like to think of sharpshooter as a tutorable e. plague although more likely to get removed it still comes in handy I normally like to run 1 maindeck for this purpose. Dark Confidant is not needed in this deck at all. Squee and Genesis provides enough card advantage.

AngryTroll
01-17-2008, 12:16 PM
Re: Di's GBWrSA

I've put your list together and I've been playing it some, but wanted to ask for some more advice on it.

Does Nimble Mongoose pull its weight? Without a Survival, it seems like Mongoose will be stuck at 1/1 until well into the lategame. An untargetable 1/1 is still solid enough, I guess, but you only run 8 spells (the Swords and Therapies) and 8 fetches, and Therapy doesn't always stay in the yard. Is Mongoose better than Mogg Fanatic, a couple of Loxodon Heirarchs, Indrik Stomphowler, etc? 4 slots is a ton of options, and Mongoose feels pretty underwhelming.

The land base also caught my eye. You have 5 forest, 8 fetches and 7 duals. What about any other basics? I understand that they are a pain because they don't tap for green, but is the resilience to Wasteland and Blood Moon worth it?

In RBGSA, I've been very happy with
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
5 Forest

I've been trying to come up with a manabase with some more basics for your version, but there really isn't a great way to do it. Has the landbase been great, alright, or is it a problem?

Xenocide
01-17-2008, 03:08 PM
Re: Di's GBWrSA

I've put your list together and I've been playing it some, but wanted to ask for some more advice on it.

Does Nimble Mongoose pull its weight? Without a Survival, it seems like Mongoose will be stuck at 1/1 until well into the lategame. An untargetable 1/1 is still solid enough, I guess, but you only run 8 spells (the Swords and Therapies) and 8 fetches, and Therapy doesn't always stay in the yard. Is Mongoose better than Mogg Fanatic, a couple of Loxodon Heirarchs, Indrik Stomphowler, etc? 4 slots is a ton of options, and Mongoose feels pretty underwhelming.



This was the same problem I was having (check like 2 pgs. back - EDIT: Must have been the other Survival thread, oh well.), I replaced him with 4 Harbingers and 2 Doran (I pulled something else, I don't remember what it was) and have been loving it ever since. It gives the deck a solid aggro plan (in addition to Tarmogoyfs) outside of Survival, and smooths mana when you do have Survival.
EDIT: Also, my meta is pretty light on control decks and the Harbinger and Doran plan isn't as good as Mongoose in the control matchup.

Jak
01-20-2008, 03:24 AM
I have been working with this deck a little on MWS and am having trouble polishing off my list. I have been using a Burning Wishless version because I wanted room for additional critters and I felt it slow and clunky sometimes. It made the board worse and I would rather just be running a solid SB. Anyways here is my current list.

4 Taiga
3 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize

4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos
2 Eternal Witness
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Darkheart Sliver
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Indrik Stomphowler

2 Shriekmaw
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

I am 1 card over right now and don't have any idea what to cut. I have been thinking about dropping Indrik, but not having a way to deal with crap like Moat, Worship, Confinement, or Prisons would suck and I just know if I ever dropped it, I would get one of those enchantments dropped against me. So my question is, is it needed? I haven't played any games where wishing for it was a must, so I really don't know its power. Any help?

What is better as life gain, Sliver or Feeder? Or would just runnign Baloths main be better? I have never wished for Sliver since it is just smaller, requires black, and doesn't gain as much life. What have people been using?

Here is the SB I have been using.

3 Krosan Grip
2 Tsunami
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
2 Duress

SB feels good. Enough GY hate, some additional combo hate, Tsunami has been great, and Plague for Gobbos and EtW. It has been very good all around. So thoughts?

MattH
01-20-2008, 11:46 AM
Drop Baloth. Way outclassed these days.

Jak
01-20-2008, 01:05 PM
Well how much life gain is enough then? Is just Spike Feeder or Darkheart enough? They do help against burn and fast aggro which do scare me.

Volt
01-20-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm not an expert on the archetype, but I think dropping Burning Wish is a mistake. When I play against the deck, I *fear* Burning Wish.

Jak
01-20-2008, 01:44 PM
Well, when I had it in there, it just felt clunky so many times. I would have it in my hand and it would do nothing because Survival really pulled me out of situations that were bad. I also wanted to add more beaters like Mongoose because it has been pretty awesome.

I do have another question though, when going against a deck like Stax, is it better to go turn 1 Bird or turn 1 Thoughtseize? I guess it depends on what is in my hand. But what if I had a Survival, I did this once against Black Stax and he goes turn one Tangle Wire. This slowed me down a ton and he was then able to lock me out of the game with Braids and Wires.

AngryTroll
01-21-2008, 12:20 AM
I would have it in my hand and it would do nothing because Survival really pulled me out of situations that were bad.

Ah, but when you don't have Survival, topdecking BWish is incredible. At worst, you spend 1RB to destroy a Tarmogoyf. Otherwise, you blow up your opponents lands, wipe their critters, shred their hand, etc.

For cutting one card, cut a land. I run the following landbase:
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Two fewer fetchlands, more basics, and fewer land overall. I would cut one or two of the fetches you run to bring the land down to 21.

Jak
01-21-2008, 12:43 AM
I do see what you are saying. I will keep trying the Burning Wishes.

I know people were wanting more threats, like Nimble Mongoose, so are you okay with just having Goyf as you beat down critter?

Di
01-21-2008, 01:32 AM
Re: Di's GBWrSA

I've put your list together and I've been playing it some, but wanted to ask for some more advice on it.

Does Nimble Mongoose pull its weight? Without a Survival, it seems like Mongoose will be stuck at 1/1 until well into the lategame. An untargetable 1/1 is still solid enough, I guess, but you only run 8 spells (the Swords and Therapies) and 8 fetches, and Therapy doesn't always stay in the yard. Is Mongoose better than Mogg Fanatic, a couple of Loxodon Heirarchs, Indrik Stomphowler, etc? 4 slots is a ton of options, and Mongoose feels pretty underwhelming.

The land base also caught my eye. You have 5 forest, 8 fetches and 7 duals. What about any other basics? I understand that they are a pain because they don't tap for green, but is the resilience to Wasteland and Blood Moon worth it?

In RBGSA, I've been very happy with
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
5 Forest

I've been trying to come up with a manabase with some more basics for your version, but there really isn't a great way to do it. Has the landbase been great, alright, or is it a problem?

Sorry for responding to this slowly, I didn't notice it until now.

@ Nimble Mongoose

In all honesty, I view him as much of a threat, if not larger a threat, than Tarmogoyf. I run Mongoose because he fulfills that secondary beater slot, but more importantly, he really shines in the control matchups. Although my meta is plagued with a high amount of control, I don't believe that slot to be meta-dependant. It is true I don't hit threshold very early often. But I am not expecting to really. If I don't have Survival, then I'm most likely not going to win the game quickly, and it will be pulled into the lategame. By then, I will have Threshold. Between StP, Therapy (maybe), fetchlands, and countered/destroyed spells, it will be there by the mid-lategame in that scenario. If I have Survival, achieving threshold is a non-issue. But I'll admit there are more times where I grab Nimble Mongoose than Tarmogoyf because in many cases 'goyf will only be a 3/4, and it's much easier, not to mention cheaper, to just grab a pair of 3/3 geese and go to town. For 4 mana, I can have a pair of 3/3 beaters, or a single 3/4-4/5 beater (sure he'll be bigger on occasion, but generally he's that range). I'll take the multiple threats and damage any day.

Plus, a huge reasoning for Nimble Mongoose is (still) Goblin Lackey. I designed the deck to specifically deal with aggro matchups, and it's where my list truely shines. Since I've played this version of the deck, I've lost only once to Goblins, and have never had a Lackey trigger connect. Ever. Plus, between the heavy amount of removal, along with Tarmogoyfs themselves, I win the Tarmogoyf mirror 9/10 times. Having Mongoose back him up is huge.

Something like Mogg Fanatic is ok, but doesn't give you the damage push you're looking for given how aggressive the deck is. Loxodon is far, far too slow to even compete, as is Indrik. The only thing that really compares is Werebear given the p/t to cc ratio, and that is outclassed by Tarmogoyf at the 2cc slot already.


@ Manabase

When I originally played the deck I had a basic Mountain and Plains in it. I figured they'd be good in theory due to Magus and high fetchland count, but it failed in practice. The non-green lands really bothered me, and I got stuck in games with only a single green source with an active Survival and suffered because of it. I won't object to others running them, because they aren't bad to use, but I really dislike the idea of having lands that can't function with the core of the deck.

For what it's worth though, I've never had an issue with Blood Moon either. I only run 7 nonbasics, same as you, plus an additional fetchland. I don't have the extra basics and I run one fewer land, but it hasn't been a concern of mine yet. Typically if I'm going to casting a Magus of the Moon, it'll screw the opponent harder than me. If I'm against a deck running them, then I just need to develop a strategic placement of my fetchlands and when to crack them. I'm not too worried about it though considered I designed the manabase around Magus.

Mulletus
01-22-2008, 10:49 AM
Well how much life gain is enough then? Is just Spike Feeder or Darkheart enough? They do help against burn and fast aggro which do scare me.

I'm not sure that they are... I got kinda lucky that I drew enough life to win a match against Tarmosleigh. I also think I need a 4 cc life gainer. Counterbalance seems to have trouble with that amount.