Lots of competitive sorta new decks

[chmoddity]

Is it just me, or are there an awful lot of really good underplayed decks available right now? Too many to really get a handle on in fact. I have tried building enough of my own decks to know when something stinks. I have been proxying decks a freaking buttload recently. And it seems like a lot of the choices we have right now are very good.

In no specific order:

1. Terrageddon - not a terribly strong game against combo, but occasionally has the tools to beat Solidarity, and it is really good against all those aggro-control decks out there. Does anyone actually own Ravages of War?
2. BWG control - There are a few different ones, and all have good points. Personally I like Truffle Shuffle's kill conditions best, TheBGwRock and Dirt also worked well for me though. These decks all need a better solution for graveyard stuff. Life from the Loam with or without Wasteland kills them.
3. HanniFish - Just good aggro-control. It's got actual card advantage coupled with Brainstorms etc, and is still capable of delivering fast beatings. I think this one may be better than Threshold in this role.
4. Death and Taxes - I have played this deck a lot. It has no pushover matchups, but it also has no bad matchups. It has a fighting chance all around. Very consistent. Excellent for a long tournament.
5. Slivers - It's sorta like threshold only better against Goblins. Still waiting for someone to do something with it. Still...waiting...
6. Anusien's Pyoclasm/ERA - despite the derision, it is a good metagame deck.

I'm sure there are others, but these are the decks I have tested enough to see that they have a wide gap between support and quality.

Those decks have not seen much play in the states, but they are all very good. This got me thinking about the GP, and how many non-Legacy players are likely to look here for deck ideas. They are not going to be able to make informed decisions unless they first read through several hundred posts on each deck. That's not realistic, and they may just take Goblins and Thresh out of frustration. Why doesn't this site have a spotlight section for good decks that do not fit the stark rules for LMF?

Sure it's useful to say what is going to show up. But players also want to know what else is good out there, and Legacy really has no place to find this out. This is the most popular site for Legacy info, so why not do something valuable with that position and inform incoming players with what they actually want to know?

my 2c.

[noobslayer]

Other decks that warrant a look at include Ubermadness (heavily underplayed), Traditional Control Madness (played even less), and 5/3 variants (not played at all). 5/3 Probably stands the best chance out of all three at making a splash in the current metagame. It is however, much better when on the play, and can often times scoop to its own horrendous draws.

[slyfer]

First of all hello to the source community, this is my first post after 1 year of read-only status :tongue:
I agree with this topic because here in italy and europe, as I can see from our deck-breakdown and some info about our tournaments, many players are leaving the "legacy-metagame-defining decks", solidarity, threshold, and goblins.
Ok, they are still played and of course they are viable and strong deck.
BUT
At the end of this first "post rotation" season of extended format, I noticed many players trying to port extended deck into legacy. Sometimes simply substituting the ravnica dual lands with original dual (unlimited white bordered).
Sometimes replacing extended cards with stronger cards available in extra-extended-expansions.
Think about "life from the loam".
It's a very strong card in extended, and this year in extended there was "aggro-loam" RGB, adopted also by Kenju Tsumura, one of the strongest players in the world.
Now we can replace birds of paradise with the much stronger and sinergic mox diamond!!!
Terrageddon is GW but it's only an example, also the RG version is very strong, with seismic assault, 4 lightning bolt and 3 lava dart (creatures are nimble mongoose, mongrel, terravore and kird ape for example). It can easily beats both goblin and threshold decks.

Another deck that saw less play, but it's strong it RW rifter. Very strong matchup any deck except combo.

Yesterday I made a 36 people tournament and the meta was combo.

I used a trinket solution deck with 4 counterbalance 3 top, 4 sword to plow 4 fire ice, and I faced life.deck (GWB), belcher and aluren!!!

To be short my opinion is that some new cards can shake up the metagame, and this is a very good news!
they are
1) empty the warrens
2) counterbalance
3) life from the loam

and I consider that as time passes, extended format will shift more and more away, so Legacy will take the role of extended, october 2008 there will be a strong cut to extended (out goblin, out orim ,out soo many cards, out of fetches!!!! it's crazy!!), so people will play more and more legacy because their 2007-extended season deck are viable in legacy simply changing the lands!!

My 2 euro cent :smile:

[Kazadoom]

There's so much inovation but many deack ideas just perished somewhere in the forums and where never seen again :D
Some had really good concept. eg i loved Über madness.

[Hummingbird TG]

Everyone seems to forget about B/w confidant. But when they do that, maybe, one day, a Sinkhole on their 1st land, then Vindicating their 2nd, will teach them to keep land-light draws...*grumbles*

B/w Confidant isn't really bad. It wins control, and though is less than favored against Goblins game one, post board it is fine. Furthermore Jitte can be adopted to shore up the match. Way, way up. So, why isn't it played?

[Zach Tartell]

Everyone seems to forget about B/w confidant. But when they do that, maybe, one day, a Sinkhole on their 1st land, then Vindicating their 2nd, will teach them to keep land-light draws...*grumbles*

B/w Confidant isn't really bad. It wins control, and though is less than favored against Goblins game one, post board it is fine. Furthermore Jitte can be adopted to shore up the match. Way, way up. So, why isn't it played?

I would attribute it's under-played state directly to the meta-breaking strides enchantress has had recently. That, and it doesn't have blue in it, or any kind of prision elements.

Actually being serious, though. It's state in games is really hard to determine.
-It isn't aggro - what is it, like eleven creatures? And, without open mana, each of them is no bigger than a 2/2. I'll admit that shade can get nasty, but I'm going only on face value.
-It isn't control. Or, at least, not traditional control. It's hand rape combined with land destruction. But, to me at least, control means permission. If you can't just say "no" to some main component in any deck, you're in trouble.
-It isn't combo. Don't even try to argue this one. Maybe if Anwar was playing it.

That said, it has piss-poor answers to 1st turn lackey (unless you're playing swords maindecked). I suppose ritual-> plague is pretty good. But that can't happen often. YOu don't have to play goblins in this format, but you sure as hell have to be able to beat it in order to play a different deck.

[Tacosnape]

B/w Confidant isn't really bad. It wins control

I can only assume I'm misreading this statement and it doesn't in fact mean "It beats control." I don't think I've ever had a control deck in my repertoire that wasn't 60/40 or better against *.Dec packing Hymn and Sinkhole.

[Hummingbird TG]

Well, Blue control *would* have a hard time, since once I take out their counters and stick a Bob on the board I can laugh in their face and watch them scramble to remove him. Unless you mean Loam control, which I haven't exactly seen often...

Against Turn 1 Lackey I personally play Carnophage. It beats, too, and blocks. It carries Jitte(16 creatures lets me run the dastardly equipment). AND it doesnt die to Fanatic, and isn't white so you don't need to fetch a Scrubland......

[Clark Kant]

If you are interested in trying underplayed powerful decks, I strongly advise trying...

Vadka Pox

3 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3/4 Mishra's Factory
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Cabal Pit

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4/3 Pox
4 Vindicate

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crucible of World
3 Nether Spirit
2 Phyrexian Totem

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Infest

It's a skill intensive but extremely potent build of a deck I put close to an year's worth of work testing and tweaking. And if you play it properly, you will win the majority of your games. As a bonus, it absolutely thrashes aggro control decks of all forms, esp Threshold, and can usually ensure that Solidarity never get's past their third land. One strike against it is that though anyone can win with the deck some of the time, it takes a lot of practice to play optimally, especially to someone inexperienced with pox. You always have be able to anticipate two to three turns ahead of time, be very familiar with the manabase of every archeatype, keep track of how many cards you and your oppoenent will end up with in hand and how many lands in play the turn that you want to pox and how to maximize pox, when to top, what hands to throw bck and essentially be able to come up with a gameplan based on your opponent's very first turn. It's only other drawback is that preboard, it can have a hard time against decks that run large numbers of creatures (more than 22), but that changes post board. And if you are playing in meta with a high density of decks made up of mostly creatures, you can easily put the Ghostly Prison or Infest in the maindeck in place of Duress of Divining Top, and the preboard game falls to your favor as well. Right now, I'm trying to see if there's any other white sideboard options against aggro.

[Peter_Rotten]

There may or may not be a significant change in the board soon - including the way we recognize competitive decks. Hopefully the members will be pleased with the (eventual) changes and the possible downfall of the Big Three.

[Cabal_chan]

There may or may not be a significant change in the board soon - including the way we recognize competitive decks. Hopefully the members will be pleased with the (eventual) changes and the possible downfall of the Big Three.

Changes? Sounds fun! A possible downfall of the Big Three is very exciting, though I've gathered that they been in a slow decline for a while.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

There's also the less played decks that win, such as Enchantress and Landstill.

[Aggro_zombies]

Changes? Sounds fun! A possible downfall of the Big Three is very exciting, though I've gathered that they been in a slow decline for a while.
Solidarity and Thresh yes, Goblins no. The former two have better varients in their respective areas - strong aggro-control and storm combo. Solidarity is basically being obsoleted by TES and maybe IGGY, both of which have better kill conditions and faster goldfish times. There are a lot of new Thresh-like decks floating around now, including Slivers, Hanni Fish, and ERA, to name a few. All of these decks combine Thresh's strong creatures with its traditional permission elements while not being vulnerable to common hate used for Thresh. Goblins, however...I think as long as people are bringing up needing legitimate answers to a turn one Lackey, it's safe to say that Goblins is still a primary concern in the meta.

Basically, if I had to predict the three strongest decks (not most numerically popular, but the most objectively strong decks) post-Columbus, they would be Goblins (still), TES/Iggy, and Slivers. jamest can back me up here.

[Kronicler]

Yeah, I agree with much of what aggro zombies said about the big three as he, jamest, and myself have talked in depth on this very topic. Solidarity just cannot keep up with the blazing speed and resiliency to combo hate and counterspells that TES offers. Similarity, Counterslivers has almost all the upsides of Thresh (super efficient creatures, cantrips, free countermagic) along with being completely immune to graveyard hate and having an extremely positive matchup against goblins. I cannot see any reason why I would play Solidarity over TES or Thresh over Counterslivers at a tournament. Goblins, on the other hand, will always be the premier aggro deck of the format, and if somehow Slivers and TES take over the metagame, I'm sure that Gobos will still find someway to adapt and remain in the top tier.

Kronicler

[iOWN]

I also think that there are a lot of Survival decks besides SA variants that should be seeing more play or have been forgotten. GWB (Rock) Survival is a really resilient deck and I guess has been seeing play in Europe, but I've not seen it played once in a US tournament. RecSur although weak against GY hate has the ability to play out in a combo-aggro style, or play a versatile toolbox strategy while ignoring mana restrictions. (Haven't seen a recent tuned list, though.) I believe the latter also has a good opportunity to get some play in while the graveyard-hating-on-gro thing has died down a bit.

And of course, my Survival deck which is only played by one person anywhere, actually has a decent combo game for a Survival deck (not wasting slots on discard) and has great match-ups in the current general metagame. /shameless plug

Although I have little experience with the deck, Counterslivers seems really strong and has been putting up lots of results on magic-league, lately (and numbers, too).

[Pinder]

I also think that there are a lot of Survival decks besides SA variants that should be seeing more play or have been forgotten.


QFT. I played against EATS the other day, and it's pretty fucking good.



Although I have little experience with the deck, Counterslivers seems really strong and has been putting up lots of results on magic-league, lately (and numbers, too).

Wait, we have results somewhere? No freaking way, for serious?

[noobslayer]

I think maybe you guys are overestimating those claims a fair bit.

For Solidarity: In the right hands, this deck doesn't simply fold like traditional combo. In fact, I'd say it only really takes about a solid month of play before you can competently take it to a tournament. It's not being made obsolete by TES at all. In fact, they fill entirely different niches in the meta game. Solidarity is Combo-Control. It doesn't scoop to one counterspell because it's packing nine in the main deck. It pilots fantastically through all sort of hate, and has very few debatable slots. It's one of the few decks in this forum that has next to no main deck variation from list to list. TES can infict win much faster than Solidarity, but short of Xantid Swarms, it's more vulnerable to counterspells and tranditional combo hate. Also, IGGy is terrible.

Gro: I don't know about you, but with TES surging in popularity, this deck is going to be around for quite some time. It's also very powerful, and can be tuned to almost any metagame, short of every deck packing chalice. This deck won't just fade away. While I don't see this deck as suddenly benefiting from some new tech like other decks may, short of a few matches, it's just about on par with all the other aggro-control decks. The only difference here is it's actually put up multiple results at major legacy events.

[AngryTroll]

I have both Bardo Thresh and Meathooks built, and honestly, right now I would rather play Meathooks. I have a lot more practice with Thresh, so I play it better than Meathooks, but Meathooks really does have almost all of the advantages of Thresh, while dodging graveyard hate and having a faster clock. Maindeck Mages in Thresh is still one selling point for Thresh, but Meathooks is a lot faster and still has the Mages in the sideboard.

The matchups where Thresh is much better than Meathooks are relatively rare. Against Pernicious Deed, Wrath, and Damnation, Thresh has the advantage. However, Meathooks is packing just as many counters, and has Stifles as well for Deed. Thresh's biggest advantage is that it can drop Mongoose on turn one and ride it to victory in some matchups, while Meathooks really needs multiple creatures in play to win.


I see TES as taking IGGy's spot, but not replacing Solidarity. As far as other decks that are competative but not seeing much play, there are plenty to choose from: Salvagers' Game, RGbSA, other Survival lists (EATS, etc), Terrageddon, HanniFish, and even decks like Angel Stompy can storm a tournament. I will be very curious to see what happens at the GP.

I don't think that the metagame is as simple as Tier 1, Tier 1.5, Tier 2+. There are a few decks right at the top (Gro, Solidarity, TES, Slivers, Goblins), but then the rest kind of smear on down through 1.1, 1.15, 1.2....etc.

[KillemallCFH]

Wait, we have results somewhere? No freaking way, for serious?In the last Legacy Trial on Magic-League, 2 of the top 4 were Counter Slivers (one of them placing first, the other third). While Magic-League is by no means a perfectly accurate representation of the current Legacy meta, it certainly proves that Meathooks has a lot of potential.

[Cabal_chan]

Wait, we have results somewhere? No freaking way, for serious?

At Magic-League,

In a May 26 Trial tournament, "WUG Slivers" took second.
In an Apr 02 Trial Tournament, there's a CounterSliver deck in the top 4, and one took 1st. Beyond that, I don't see any other lists. The three mentioned are pretty much identical to the one you and your team worked on, barring any minor tweaks.

Edit: Got beaten to it. Curse my schizo wireless connection.

[xsockmonkeyx]

At Magic-League,

In a May 26 Trial tournament, "WUG Slivers" took second.
In an Apr 02 Trial Tournament, there's a CounterSliver deck in the top 4, and one took 1st.

I think you either mean Mar. 26 or that your time machine is for real. Either one is fine with me :)

[torgar]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Rabid mo-fuckin' Wombat. It's got game vs the Big Three and more.

[al the great]

i've only known 1 person owning a play set of ravages and uses it.

it's pretty rare in my area considering lots of people own alot big sh!t around here including me.

[Cabal_chan]

I think you either mean Mar. 26 or that your time machine is for real. Either one is fine with me :)

My bad. Nope, no working time machine, sorry. But I promise you, the moment I get it up, I'll bring back some wicked future tech. :tongue:

[Finn]

TES is not particularly redilient to combo hate. The most popular combo hate cards (Mage and Chalice) just suck against it. Eventually people will start to realize that Sphere of Resistence and Glowrider hit more combo decks where it hurts, and TES will be mired in it.

[C.P.]

TES is not particularly redilient to combo hate. The most popular combo hate cards (Mage and Chalice) just suck against it. Eventually people will start to realize that Sphere of Resistence and Glowrider hit more combo decks where it hurts, and TES will be mired in it.

The edge that TES have against combo hate is possiblity of going off on their face on turn one. It does it better then IGGY POP due to the better tutors and Empty the Warrens. Both hate that you mentioned comes out turn 2 or later, so TES will always have a decent chance to win beforehand.

I had lots of games where I had Duress + Hymn on draw and TES went off on my face on turn one to seal the deal. The Sphere or Glowrider is even slower.

[emidln]

TES is not particularly redilient to combo hate. The most popular combo hate cards (Mage and Chalice) just suck against it. Eventually people will start to realize that Sphere of Resistence and Glowrider hit more combo decks where it hurts, and TES will be mired in it.

Not true. Chalice is highly effective against TES in combination with other lock pieces. It's even more effective when they are forced to Tendrils out turn 1 due to easy and plentiful access to cheap mass removal paired with accel.

[Finn]

Not true. Chalice is highly effective against TES in combination with other lock pieces. It's even more effective when they are forced to Tendrils out turn 1 due to easy and plentiful access to cheap mass removal paired with accel.
Sure. sure. And Funeral Charm is also effective against TES in combination with other discard pieces. But Duress is still better.
Compared to Sphere of Resistence at the exact same cost (assuming Chalice at one of course) Chalice is not the right card. In our one example of TES doing well, Bryant was facing people trying to use anti-Solidarity and anti-IGGy hate cards to stop it. This is my point. If TES is as good as it appears to be, the hate will inevitably have to change to fit it.


The edge that TES have against combo hate is possiblity of going off on their face on turn one. It does it better then IGGY POP due to the better tutors and Empty the Warrens. Both hate that you mentioned comes out turn 2 or later, so TES will always have a decent chance to win beforehand.

I had lots of games where I had Duress + Hymn on draw and TES went off on my face on turn one to seal the deal. The Sphere or Glowrider is even slower.
Well, yeah. But if we are going to discuss TES going off before your first turn, barring FoW the entire conversation is quite moot. And I think we all know that FoW is not the best answer. Not on its own.

I will admit that Glowrider is kinda slow. It is not the best card to beat combo because of this - or anything else, but it does so much to so many decks. Faerie Stompy uses Chalice to do a lot in much the same way. Your primary hate really has to come down before him except vs. Solidarity.

[torgar]

Compared to Sphere of Resistence at the exact same cost (assuming Chalice at one of course) Chalice is not the right card.

I will admit that Glowrider is kinda slow. It is not the best card to beat combo because of this - or anything else, but it does so much to so many decks. Faerie Stompy uses Chalice to do a lot in much the same way. Your primary hate really has to come down before him except vs. Solidarity.

You don't set Chalice at 1 against TES, you set it at zero.

And Glowrider is slow but when you've got any combination of Chalice, Chant, Abeyance, Gilded Light, Sphere of Resistance, True Believer to get you there it's well worth the devasting effect.

Glowrider is so very good in so many MUs.

[noobslayer]

That is unless turn 1 you drop them both.

[torgar]

The only decks capable of dropping Chalices for 0 and 1 on the first turn are Stax and FaerieStompy and that's still quite unlikely.

[Kronicler]

Dropping a turn 1 chalice at 1 against TES is much more damaging than a chalice at 0. Yes, chalice at 0 prevents them from using LED tricks, but chalice at 1 cuts them off of rite of flame, dark ritual, xantid swarm, and brainstorm, all very powerful and essential cards if they hope to go off in a timely manner. They can certainly play around it, but it will be much, much harder for them. If you drop a chalice at 0 then they can simply play a couple of rituals and empty the warrens with ease.

Kronicler

[Eldariel]

Dropping a turn 1 chalice at 1 against TES is much more damaging than a chalice at 0. Yes, chalice at 0 prevents them from using LED tricks, but chalice at 1 cuts them off of rite of flame, dark ritual, xantid swarm, and brainstorm, all very powerful and essential cards if they hope to go off in a timely manner. They can certainly play around it, but it will be much, much harder for them. If you drop a chalice at 0 then they can simply play a couple of rituals and empty the warrens with ease.

Kronicler

If you're playing FS post-board, that's what you might just WANT them to do if you have a Mage for EE, or EE itself, in hand.

[torgar]

Dropping a turn 1 chalice at 1 against TES is much more damaging than a chalice at 0. Yes, chalice at 0 prevents them from using LED tricks, but chalice at 1 cuts them off of rite of flame, dark ritual, xantid swarm, and brainstorm, all very powerful and essential cards if they hope to go off in a timely manner. They can certainly play around it, but it will be much, much harder for them. If you drop a chalice at 0 then they can simply play a couple of rituals and empty the warrens with ease.
Kronicler

Try LED, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal. Over half their manabase.

Not to mention it hits two turns earlier. Ask any competent TES player.

[jazzykat]

I think maybe you guys are overestimating those claims a fair bit.

For Solidarity: In the right hands, this deck doesn't simply fold like traditional combo. In fact, I'd say it only really takes about a solid month of play before you can competently take it to a tournament. It's not being made obsolete by TES at all. In fact, they fill entirely different niches in the meta game. Solidarity is Combo-Control. It doesn't scoop to one counterspell because it's packing nine in the main deck. It pilots fantastically through all sort of hate, and has very few debatable slots. It's one of the few decks in this forum that has next to no main deck variation from list to list. TES can infict win much faster than Solidarity, but short of Xantid Swarms, it's more vulnerable to counterspells and tranditional combo hate. Also, IGGy is terrible.

Gro: I don't know about you, but with TES surging in popularity, this deck is going to be around for quite some time. It's also very powerful, and can be tuned to almost any metagame, short of every deck packing chalice. This deck won't just fade away. While I don't see this deck as suddenly benefiting from some new tech like other decks may, short of a few matches, it's just about on par with all the other aggro-control decks. The only difference here is it's actually put up multiple results at major legacy events.


I agree with noobslayer.

With regards to Solidarity, it can maneuver through hate like no other combo deck I have EVER seen. It is so elegant that you are often limited from winning by your own creativity, mathematical ability, and experience with the deck.

With respect to Threshold, I think it hits harder and faster (with Mental Note) than any of the aggro control varieties. People have finally wisened up and prepared for it, but that doesn't mean it's guys are just about the biggest in the game. (Except Meddling Mage...but think of him as a counterspell with legs.)

What I may not agree with noobslayer is him saying that Iggy is terrible. IMO Iggy is a great deck. However, hate for it is abundant and very effective thus making it bad vs. hate (considering the amount and effectiveness).

[Di]

Try LED, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal. Over half their manabase.

Not to mention it hits two turns earlier. Ask any competent TES player.

Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal are basically non-issues because they don't make a Ritual effect. Setting Chalice at 0 only takes out 4 of them, LED, where Chalice at 1 takes out 8 of them, and then Brainstorm. It's a lot easier for them to get to 4 mana when they can still cast Rite of Flame and Dark Ritual rather then them having to use LED and Infernal Tutor to do it. I'm not saying they can't do it, because the deck certainly can, but leaving them with only LED as a ritual effect really hurts their gameplan.

[emidln]

You don't set Chalice at 1 against TES, you set it at zero.


Exactly. Also, if you have the ability to play Trinisphere and Chalice, you play Trinisphere and then Chalice @ 2. If you have two chalices you play Chalice @ 0 and Chalice @ 2. Chalice @ 0 is the most important though.

[torgar]

Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal are basically non-issues because they don't make a Ritual effect.

This is ridiculous. First of all each Mox/Petal is another Storm count. Which means either you've lost or you've played Chalice and they're stuck with those dead cards. Non-issues? It's a deck with 9-10 land. You can't cast Ritual without mana. Rituals and rites are more difficult to go off with because they require mana investment. 1 for 3. 1 for 2. A Ritual of a land needs another ritual or another land or another mox/petal to go anywhere. Not to mention the color issues. Rit-rit-Tendrils is not impressive and Rite-Rite-ETW is only alittle better. Now if you have Rit-Rite, you're still kinda screwed without the second permanent mana source.



Setting Chalice at 0 only takes out 4 of them, LED, where Chalice at 1 takes out 8 of them, and then Brainstorm. It's a lot easier for them to get to 4 mana when they can still cast Rite of Flame and Dark Ritual rather then them having to use LED and Infernal Tutor to do it.


Wrong again. LED-Tutor is the easier way. If they can't empty their hand, they'll have to tutor for something in their hand. More restrictive. Then they'll tutor for another Rit, and not for the IGG/Returns. LED is probably the most broken card in the deck. Coupled with cost-increasers like Sphere/Glowrider which hit later make going off near impossible with Rituals/Rites.

This is all ignoring the fact that Chalice for zero hits TURN 1. Chalice for 1 hits TURN 2. This is an infinite amount of time in the world of TES.

First you take out the their legs by removing their most efficient and quick means of zero-CC mana. Then you go for the head with Chalice for 2 which shuts off the business. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were a TES player trying to spread misinformation to better your matchups. :-P

[Kronicler]

I was speaking from the perspective of Faerie Stompy, where chalice at 1 comes down turn 1. Also, I am a very competent TES player, have been working on the deck for months, have the majority of my posts in the TES thread itself, and have tested FS vs TES extensively because I own both decks. If you have the option of dropping chalice at 1 or chalice at zero on the first turn, chalice at one is a much better play.

You said that LED + tutoring is the easiest way for a TES player to win, which is true, but without rituals, the 4 mana that they need will not be so easy to come by (2 to tutor for the 2nd LED, using either plunge or infernal, then 2 more to cast a tutor breaking to LEDs in response etc). Both chrome mox and lotus petal only add a single mana, while dark ritual and rite of flames after the first both add 2. Chalice at 1 also cuts off their counter protection (xantid) as well as Brainstorm, something which you seem to be writing off as inconsiquential, that lets them see 3 cards deeper and fascilitates many turn 1 or 2 kills by getting them the right cards in hand and putting back that 4cc card that they need to tutor for.

Finally, Diablos is part of team EPIC and probably tests with Wastedlife all the time. If you don't want to take my word for it, at least take his.

Kronicler

[Soto]

For the upcoming GPT, i have the choice between Threshold and Sliver. In your opinion what should i run?

[Kronicler]

In my opinion slivers is a superior deck to thresh because a) it beats gobos b) it is very hard to hate out, unlike thresh c) it beats goblins d) having all of your creatures untargetable is better than only 4 of them e) it beats goblins and f) because it is more fun to play than thresh (imo). Did I mension it beats goblins?

Kronicler

[iOWN]

For the upcoming GPT, i have the choice between Threshold and Sliver. In your opinion what should i run?

In my opinion, you should play Slivers because it will have more of a surprise factor. It still depends on the meta at the Trial (if you can predict what it is). Anyways, it will probably still come down to which deck your more comfortable with.

[torgar]

If you have the option of dropping chalice at 1 or chalice at zero on the first turn, chalice at one is a much better play.

Ok, fair enough. This is at least a debatable point. I'd still argue for Chalice at zero.


Chalice at 1 also cuts off their counter protection (xantid) as well as Brainstorm, something which you seem to be writing off as inconsiquential, that lets them see 3 cards deeper and fascilitates many turn 1 or 2 kills by getting them the right cards in hand and putting back that 4cc card that they need to tutor for.

The beautiful part about Chalice is that it circumvents their counterprotection. Why do I need to use something that works under Swarm to stop Swarm. The argument might be different for FS as opposed to Stax/MWC/non-blue decks with Chalice here, tho. Still, if my Chalice works regardless of whether Swarm is out, why do I care about using Chalice to stop it. (This is speaking in a Void [haha. omg. I kill myself] not taking into account your secondary hate, whether its Glowrider or FoW, etc.) Brainstorm doesn't facilitate Turn 1 kills.. certainly not without the zero-CC mana.



Finally, Diablos is part of team EPIC and probably tests with Wastedlife all the time. If you don't want to take my word for it, at least take his.


Honestly, no offense intended, I don't give fuck what team anyone hails from. I don't take anyone's word for it. I do my own testing and I know how to and I have beat TES in tournament play.

[Bryant Cook]

Honestly, no offense intended, I don't give fuck what team anyone hails from. I don't take anyone's word for it. I do my own testing and I know how to and I have beat TES in tournament play.

I think you need to calm down a little bit, put your ego aside. Yes, you beat me once in tournament play. In a very close game 3, don't let your ego get the best of you. Kronicler and Diablos are correct.

[torgar]

For the upcoming GPT, i have the choice between Threshold and Sliver. In your opinion what should i run?

Whichever you're better at playing. Whatever you play more.

Which to bring the conversation back to the thread topic, is why I always play Mono White Control. Cause it's got decent game against pretty much everything and my Mirrodin basic plains are so sexy.

[Zach Tartell]

In my opinion, you should play Slivers because it will have more of a surprise factor. It still depends on the meta at the Trial (if you can predict what it is). Anyways, it will probably still come down to which deck your more comfortable with.

Fuck slivers. Trade your FOW's, meddling magi, and blue duals for two moats, and run enchantress. I'll lend you one if you actually do it.

Enchantress is good because under my piloting it has:
- 2-0'd solidarity. Twice. Once while gearhart was playing it.

I win the die roll, go Basic Forest, exploration, plateau, end the turn. Gearhart leans over the table, and taps on my land. "These colors don't beat me," he proclaims confidently.
- lost one match to goblins in 3 55+ player tournaments
- top 8'd 3 times in 2 weeks (has slivers even done anything at a west coast tournament?)
- 6-2'd UB and UBW landstill
- 2-0'd red death
- 4-0'd survival

For serious, my various bros. Enchantress is a tank.

[torgar]

I think you need to calm down a little bit, put your ego aside. Yes, you beat me once in tournament play. In a very close game 3, don't let your ego get the best of you. Kronicler and Diablos are correct.

I wasn't just talking about you. My point was that I don't take "he says so" as a valid form of argument.

Correct about what? Would you say Chalice for 1 on Turn 2 is better than Chalice for zero on Turn 1?

Since I did say Turn 1 Chalice for 1 is a debatable argument. What do you think about Turn1? Setting it at 1 is strictly better than zero? I'm interested in your (or anyone's) opinion, I just haven't heard a convincing argument.

[Awesomator]

In my opinion slivers is a superior deck to thresh because a) it beats gobos b) it is very hard to hate out, unlike thresh c) it beats goblins d) having all of your creatures untargetable is better than only 4 of them e) it beats goblins and f) because it is more fun to play than thresh (imo). Did I mension it beats goblins?

Kronicler

umm are you talking about meathooks? If my opponent doesn't get Crystalline out within a few turns, then the deck gets smashed by goblins. Meathooks isn't anymore than a coin flip against goblins. And if you cant chalice for 1 on turn one then you do chalice for 0, if you chalice for 0 when you could chalice for 1 on turn one, then that would be really stupid.

[Bryant Cook]

I wasn't just talking about you. My point was that I don't take "he says so" as a valid form of argument.

Correct about what? Would you say Chalice for 1 on Turn 2 is better than Chalice for zero on Turn 1?

Since I did say Turn 1 Chalice for 1 is a debatable argument.

Depends whos on the play and draw.

[Kronicler]

Yes, I am talking about meathooks and you are completely wrong. Meathooks vs Gobos is nowhere near a coin flip. This is another matchup I have tested extensively, to the point that the 4 goblin players in my shop won't even play against slivers anymore, and I go roughly 70-30. I play against good goblin players who don't make mistakes and who play the optimum builds. Crystalline is amazing in this matchup, there is no disputing that, but it's not like without it I automatically lose. At a certain point gobos just cannot deal with the shear size of the slivers, and eventually you can usually drop a winged and swing ftw.

Kronicler

[Awesomator]

You also have a fragile mana base which has to be able to deal with 4 ports and 4 wastes. I always seem to run into meathooks in random tournaments and I haven't lost a game to it, it's been very close in testing, somewhere around a flip. Maybe I'm just lucky lol, maybe the gob players you're playing with are making some mistakes, or maybe I'm just not playing against any good Meathooks players.

[BoTS]

At Magic-League,

In a May 26 Trial tournament, "WUG Slivers" took second.
In an Apr 02 Trial Tournament, there's a CounterSliver deck in the top 4, and one took 1st. Beyond that, I don't see any other lists. The three mentioned are pretty much identical to the one you and your team worked on, barring any minor tweaks.

Edit: Got beaten to it. Curse my schizo wireless connection.

That's true, CounterSlivers is quite solid. But do you know what it lost to? Ichorid. Yeah, I'm surprised no one has even so much as mentioned the deck as extremely underplayed and also extremely powerful. Yes, it has a hard time with Crypt, which I'm sure is its biggest argument for not running it, but I've seen it punch through such unlikely odds as double Crypt. It also has needles and Chalice to deal with it. The thing about the deck that makes it so strong is its consistency. It can easily win by turn 4 on a regular basis, even in the face of hate or removal.

[Watcher487]

You also have a fragile mana base which has to be able to deal with 4 ports and 4 wastes.

Gobbos does an awesome job destroying a fragile mana base against D3Deuce.

Goblins is not the end all of the format. Get over yourselves and start thinking.

[Awesomator]

Ya and you wouldn't have won had I knew you even ran black.. Or if I even had a waste or port in any of those games. We were talking about a particular matchup, notice how noone ever talks about their matchup against your deck, because no one cares. 4 colors with Silver Knight and Kird Ape! Awesome!

[Kronicler]

You also have a fragile mana base which has to be able to deal with 4 ports and 4 wastes.

The manabase isn't that fragile. All you have to do is fetch basics and hope they don't get more than 2 ports (because that just sucks balls).


Maybe I'm just lucky lol, maybe the gob players you're playing with are making some mistakes, or maybe I'm just not playing against any good Meathooks players.

I'm guessing that you just aren't playing against great Meathooks players, because the gobos player I test against is currently #1 in the city champs in the Bay Area, aka he is quite a good player.

Kronicler

[Volt]

(has slivers even done anything at a west coast tournament?)

Umm, what is this "west coast tournament" you speak of? I do not think there is such a thing. At least not in Legacy.

[Awesomator]

has anyone tested Affownity? Bane did well in a tourney with it. I don't really like the whole 15 blue card with 4 Force thing, but Force is definitely necessary to make the deck competitive.

[Citrus-God]

In my opinion slivers is a superior deck to thresh because a) it beats gobos b) it is very hard to hate out, unlike thresh c) it beats goblins d) having all of your creatures untargetable is better than only 4 of them e) it beats goblins and f) because it is more fun to play than thresh (imo). Did I mension it beats goblins?

Kronicler

I would like to defned Threshold. In no way is Slivers supperior to Threshold. Threshold holds a better Solidarity MU game 1, even with no Meddling Mage backed up it still holds a stronger Control density. I'm not saying Threshold is better, but I'm saying that isnt completely true as Threshold's win conditions are more independent and are much harder to answer individually.

A.) Threshold goes 50/50 against Goblins. It really depends on the patience of that Threshold player that makes him/her beat Goblins. Only bad or out of practice Thrshold players lose to Goblins.

B.) It depends who you play against. Tormod's Crypt does not spell the end for Threshold. Usually what spells the end for Threshold is Chalice of the Void. This applies to you too.

C.) I admit, this is a very strong reason to run MeatHooks, however it needs others to tie the deck together. A Deed/EE for 2 can wipe the whole board clean. For Threshold, a Deed/EE is a bit complex to use right as it as Enforcer as well. I think of Enforcer as the trap this deck has where you just wear your opponent's out and them BAM! Their staring done a board of Enforcer and a random beefed up Dude...

D.) I cant argue which is more fun to play. That's more of a preference for the pilot...

[BoTS]

has anyone tested Affownity? Bane did well in a tourney with it. I don't really like the whole 15 blue card with 4 Force thing, but Force is definitely necessary to make the deck competitive.

I disagree. Yes, I do believe the deck is just as competetive as a lot of the other decks mentioned in this thread, but It does not need Force to make it a force to reckon with (no pun intended). I think the strongest build is the UBR Fling-Atog build, simply because it gives you the stupid "oops I win draw". It also gives you outs in matchups and situations in which you shouldn't at all win lest you run that pesky, red Stronghold instant. The deck itself, besides the OopsIWin factor, is also incredibly consistent, fast, and resilient to hate. After all, it did so well in both Standard and Extended, even with most of the field gunning for its head.

[Soto]

I just talked to a few friends that are going. (I'm talking bout the gpt here in montreal if anyone is coming then pm so we can test.) 2 of em are gonna bring goblins to it so i guess I'm gonna go with slivers. I'm also gonna try and write a report if I do well otherwise meh. thank you all for your advice.

[Volt]

Agreed that Thresh is *slightly* better than MeatHooks against Solidarity in game 1. However, our strong advantage against Goblins more than makes up for that, by far.

I'm not going to sit here and tell people that MeatHooks is better than Thresh. I do think it's interesting that we're having the conversation, though.

[Finn]

The thing about Thresh that makes it nuts is and always will be Mongoose IMO. There are a lot of aggro-control decks out there. And they all get compared to Threshold. How many games have any of you lost to the one lousy Mongoose that swung for 3 five times in a row while your blockers were zapped and countered away? ...and you were holding a bolt or plow...
That crap steals games. Thresh is still very capable imo.

[Awesomator]

Affinity has no disruption to stop any combo decks other than racing it, on top of that, it has a very weak Goblin matchup at least against the green build. Affownity has 4 chalice and 4 force, making it very difficult for a lot of combo decks to deal with. Maybe if the deck took out wasteland and splashed black for the sb it would do better, and could turn gobs into an ok matchup. As for the fling build, it needs a lot of work before it will start placing well in tournaments.

[torgar]

Affinity has no disruption to stop any combo decks other than racing it, on top of that, it has a very weak Goblin matchup at least against the green build. Affownity has 4 chalice and 4 force, making it very difficult for a lot of combo decks to deal with. Maybe if the deck took out wasteland and splashed black for the sb it would do better, and could turn gobs into an ok matchup. As for the fling build, it needs a lot of work before it will start placing well in tournaments.

I agree. Pyrokinesis is a real bitch in the Goblin MU as well.

The best Affinity has is Cabal Therapy/Stifle for the combo MU, although I haven't tested Affowinity at all.

[Awesomator]

affownity has the power to get chalice for 0 or 1 on turn one, or of course force. The goblin matchup is really pretty bad though, where it is much better with the original affinity build (while still not being good).

[Cabal_chan]

That's true, CounterSlivers is quite solid. But do you know what it lost to? Ichorid. Yeah, I'm surprised no one has even so much as mentioned the deck as extremely underplayed and also extremely powerful. Yes, it has a hard time with Crypt, which I'm sure is its biggest argument for not running it, but I've seen it punch through such unlikely odds as double Crypt. It also has needles and Chalice to deal with it. The thing about the deck that makes it so strong is its consistency. It can easily win by turn 4 on a regular basis, even in the face of hate or removal.

Sorry, I'm not all that familiar with CounterSlivers's match ups.

Don't forget any deck running E. Plague is going to kick Ichorid really hard. It's that 1 toughness thing, not to mention Extirpate will hurt, and a Swords to Plowshares permanently removes it. Though, I'd love to see a list, unless it's some super secretness you plan on unleashing on hapless players later.

[Bane of the Living]

has anyone tested Affownity? Bane did well in a tourney with it. I don't really like the whole 15 blue card with 4 Force thing, but Force is definitely necessary to make the deck competitive.

Absurd!
I dont play that deck..

Why would anyone play Force of Will, Wasteland, and Chalice all in the same deck with affinity cards?

[Xero]

it has a very weak Goblin matchup at least against the green build. As for the fling build, it needs a lot of work before it will start placing well in tournaments.

Have you tested the Goblins match-up? Its generally 50/50, unless they're running the 4x Tinkerer build. And Affinity has placed well at tournaments: Star City Games Dual for Duals III and IV, The Mana Leak Open 1, and a bunch of European and under-reported tournamets. That's more impressive than most of the decks in the Open forum.

[C.P.]

Why would anyone play Force of Will, Wasteland, and Chalice all in the same deck with affinity cards?

Maybe because it is reasonable?

I've been testing the deck for a while now, and I felt the deck is pretty good. Goblins matchups is not so hot, but other matchups are better then traditional Affinity.

EDIT: Fine, I lose.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Maybe because it is reasonable?

I've been testing the deck for a while now, and I felt the deck is pretty good. Goblins matchups is not so hot, but other matchups are better then traditional Affinity.


Umm sarcasm?

[Awesomator]

Have you tested the Goblins match-up? Its generally 50/50, unless they're running the 4x Tinkerer build. And Affinity has placed well at tournaments: Star City Games Dual for Duals III and IV, The Mana Leak Open 1, and a bunch of European and under-reported tournamets. That's more impressive than most of the decks in the Open forum.

Ya I have tested the affinity matchup, and it's not a coin flip. Tin Street is better than Tinkerer, and krosan grip is amazing vs affinity. Not to mention that every goblin build also runs pyrokinesis. Mana Leak 1 was when players didn't know the format well and the European meta is completely different. As for the other two tournaments.. The deck is played enough and it's bound to do well somewhere, and that doesn't make it good.

[Pinder]

Umm, what is this "west coast tournament" you speak of? I do not think there is such a thing. At least not in Legacy.

QFT. There's really slim pickings around here in terms of respectable Legacy tournaments. I mean, I regularly Top 4 at a local 30+ tourney we have on Fridays in my area, but the meta is so random and scrubby that it's really not worth mentioning.