[ATW] Landstill

[Nightmare]

The original Legacy Control weapon, Landstill has waned in favor due to the domination of Goblins. With Goblins maintaining a shaky hold on the format, as well as innovations and new card printings, Landstill has seen a bit more play in recent months. Does this foreshadow a return of the once-king?

Running Gagg #2, Geneseo NY
Coverage (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4718)
Top 8 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4718)

Bazaar of Wonders Legacy Event, Germany
Top 8 (http://www.germagic.de/dc/event.php?event=BoW+Liga+-+Legacy+Dezember+2006)

January Iserlohn Legacy Tournament, Germany
Top 8 (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2572)

February Iserlohn Legacy Tournament, Germany
Top 8 (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2640)

Threads:
UR Landstill (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3251)

UBg Landstill - Vorosh Control (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5173)

UB Landstill - Duck Hunt (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=871)

Old DTB Thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=625)

BHWC Landstill (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4930)

The typical Landstill shell will include the following blue cards:

Standstill
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Force of Will

Other popular blue inclusions are the following:
Fact or Fiction
Mana Leak
Stifle


Discussion Question: Is extra counter in Mana Leak and Stifle worth losing possible removal slots? Is Fact or Fiction still hot or not?

Landstill was a quite a few color variations. Blue is always included for counters and draw, but the secondary (mass, spot removal, win condition) colors are debatable.

Removal

Red
Pyroclasm
Slice and Dice
Fire/Ice
Bolts (Lightning, Chain)
Magma Jet

Black
Damnation
Decree of Pain
Ghastly Demise
Edict (Diabolic, Chainer's)
Innocent Blood

Green
Naturalize

White
Wrath of God
Swords to Plowshares
Wing Shards
Disenchant

Multi-color
Pernicious Deed (GB)

Artifact
Nevinyrral's Disk
Poweder Keg
Engineered Explosives


Discussion Questions: What color provides the best, cheapest, and/or most cost effective removal options?

Win Conditions

Black
Haunting Echoes

White
Decree of Justice
Eternal Dragon
Exalted Angel

Green
Gigapede?

Lands
Nantuko Monastary (GW)

Discussion Question: Does White's seemingly superior win conditions make that color an automatic inclusion for Landstill?

Other Considerations

Black
Discard - Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach

Green
Recursion - Gaea's Blessing, Regrowth
Enchantment and Aritifact Hate - Naturalize, Tranquility

Red
Reach/To the Dome - various burn spells
Artifact Hate - Shattering Spree, Meltdown

White
Life Gain - Pulse of the Fields, Life Burst
Enchantment and Artifact Hate - Disenchant, Aura of Silence
Storm Combo Hate - Orim's Chant, Abeyance

[Pinder]

I honestly think that the strongest combination is UWBG, as it gives you access to most of the best control elements in the game. Most notably it gives you Pernicious Deed, which is the best board sweep option Landstill has available to it, IMO. I certainly know that I hate to see Deed on the other side of the table.

Having access to green and white also gives you Nantuko Monastery, which is probably as good or better than Mishra's Factory, and speeds the deck's clock up.

Access to black also gives you EP out of the board for Goblins/ETW craziness, and for other Tribal Decks as well. It also gives you extra removal like Edict and Innocent Blood to supplement Swords to Plowshares.

And there's always discard either maindeck or board to help against combo, which if I recall Landstill has had a historically bad matchup against. White also gives you weapons against combo in the form of Chant and Abeyance.

[Anarky87]

I honestly think that the strongest combination is UWBG, as it gives you access to most of the best control elements in the game. Most notably it gives you Pernicious Deed, which is the best board sweep option Landstill has available to it, IMO. I certainly know that I hate to see Deed on the other side of the table.

Having access to green and white also gives you Nantuko Monastery, which is probably as good or better than Mishra's Factory, and speeds the deck's clock up.

Access to black also gives you EP out of the board for Goblins/ETW craziness, and for other Tribal Decks as well. It also gives you extra removal like Edict and Innocent Blood to supplement Swords to Plowshares.

And there's always discard either maindeck or board to help against combo, which if I recall Landstill has had a historically bad matchup against. White also gives you weapons against combo in the form of Chant and Abeyance.

I second this. The deck can pretty much be dubbed Answer.dec. A guy I play with played the 4c version for the longest time, but said he was going to switch for the GP, because he didn't know if he could handle the manabase for 10+ rounds in a row. I'm kind of on the fence about the manabase, at times it works beautifully and you get exactly what you need, but when you get color screwed, you take it hard. I know I just described every deck there is, but I finally stopped playing the deck because I could never get the right amount of colored lands. And with Goblins blowing a huge load at the number of non-basics I played it was a tad discouraging.

Though I did dabble in the U/B/g version of the deck for awhile before going back to U/b/g/w.

[Tacosnape]

Another potential black inclusion in the Sideboard of any Black variant is Extirpate (I run it in my Uwbg build.) I find beating Life from the Loam decks to be incredibly tricky without it, and while not the end-all against combo, it's debatably as useful as Duress against certain combo decks and often useful when combined with Force, Counterspell, Stifle, and Mage.

[Nightmare]

After doing some significant testing, I'm not entirely convinced the black splash is worth it. Basically, you get Deed (if splashing Green too), which is awesome, but has terrible synergy with Crucible; Engineered Plague, which helps in the Gobs match but you only need because you wrecked your manabase going 4c; and Duress, which is Good vs. other control (which you beat anyway), and Combo (which you can build to beat, if it isn't Solidarity). You sacrifice any kind of reliable manabase for it, and I think in a control deck it's much more important to hit the mana you need when you need it, rather than pack the deck full of powerful cards and not play them because you can't draw a manasource. I'm still unsure as to what colors are the best, but I know it won't be Black.

[jamest]

I find beating Life from the Loam decks to be incredibly tricky without it ...
Me too. I think a dedicated Loam deck just makes a better lategame deck than ours. I thought about running Cunning Wish in place of Disenchant with a small wishboard of Extirpate, removal, and Pulse of the Fields.


After doing some significant testing, I'm not entirely convinced the black splash is worth it. Basically, you get Deed (if splashing Green too), which is awesome...
The problem is that I can't find a decent replacement for Deed. The fact that Deed can come down Turn 3 to destroy Warrens tokens is key for me.


...but has terrible synergy with Crucible;
I've been running a Loam engine instead, partly because of this. Here's my current decklist:

7 Fetchlands
3/3/3 Trop/Sea/Tundra
4/3/2 Factory/Treetop/Monastery
1 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Intuition
1 Loam
2 Sandbar

4 Deed
4 Plowshares
2 Vindicate

4 Force
4 Counter
3 Stifle


Engineered Plague, which helps in the Gobs match but you only need because you wrecked your manabase going 4c;
I think the Goblins matchup is a big issue that has been subtly ignored. In my testing, this deck can't beat Goblins game 1. I wasn't sure if I was doing something wrong until I ran into this quote by Tacosnape (which everyone ignored):

Nick, I'm curious about your Goblins strategy. How winnable do you find game 1, and is it worth attempting the same strategy of conceding game 1 to mass-board for games 2-3? I tend to find myself drawing with Goblins a lot after losing game 1, winning game 2, and then finding insufficient time left for game 3.
Then again, this shouldn't come as a surprise. Originally, Goblins moved to 4x Port 4x Waste to combat UW Landstill back in the day. In my opinion, it's not just the manabase that's the problem, but the entire strategic approach. Basic maxim: Mass removal doesn't beat Goblins.


I think in a control deck it's much more important to hit the mana you need when you need it, rather than pack the deck full of powerful cards and not play them because you can't draw a manasource.
Agreed. I've tried to address this by increasing the number of color mana sources.

[Nightmare]

Engineered Explosives is better at killing Warrens tokens than Deed, as it has no mana retrictions and hits a turn earlier.

[thefreakaccident]

I have to agree with nightmare here, the deck is packed full of goodies that are just awesome to be seen played in the same deck... but with its' flimsy mana base, it comes to a screeching halt in its' developement when it comes to mana denial in the forms of wasteland/rishidan port. Belgorath over at salvation was able to help me fix the base, and it looks a lot better & plays a lot more consistantly... but then again he is the king of still.

@ Jamest: Yaw I have to agree, mass board removal does not end goblins, they simply have to restock... you need something like plague to continuously deal with their threats, pernicious deed serves as a timewalk in this instance because they are either afraid of the deed popping, or they'll just put the pressure on until the deed pop's to leave room for the threat build up in their hand... that's just the way it goes.

this is landstill, not loam; the reason we use crucible for recursion & not loam is because crucible goes under the standstill, which is the whole point of the deck... you play crucible, then standstill... you play under the standstill comfortably until they break the still; then you massively control the board and play another still, rinse wash repeat.

[Tacosnape]

Jamest gets a cookie for being the first person to actually listen to me. Possibly ever.:laugh:

Now, the whole Loam/Crucible debate aside, the manabase of the UBGW Landstill -is- flimsy regardless of how you look at it. So I cut Wasteland.

(Pauses while you go take a Maalox and resynchronize your pacemakers...)

Now, obviously, I'm aware that Crucible/Wasteland is ungodly powerful, as is slightly less so Loam/Wasteland, and I'm sure I'll get at least three posts telling me I'm off my rocker. But I've found I win far more games from not dying to my own manabase than I do to not having the Wasteland.

Let's look at the traditional 4C Landstill manabase and then one without Wasteland.

Traditional versus (Without Wasteland)
4 Flooded Strand (4 Flooded Strand)
3 Tropical Island (3 Tropical Island)
3 Underground Sea (4 Underground Sea)
3 Tundra (4 Tundra)
4 Mishra's Factory (4 Mishra's Factory)
3 Nantuko Monestary (3 Nantuko Monestary)
3 Wasteland (1 Polluted Delta)
1 Island/Plains (1 Island/Plains)

The traditional build has a mere seven ways to hit any given color aside from blue, 13-14 to hit Blue, 8 for White if it runs the basic Plains over the basic Island.

The non-wasteland version has nine ways to hit black or white and eight for green, 16-17 for Blue, and Ten for white if it runs the basic Plains over the basic Island.

Now, the drawbacks of losing Wasteland are threefold:

1. You lose mana denial as a strategy.
2. You won't have the advantage under a Standstill as often.
3. You can't deal with a select few problem lands.

To which the answers are:

1. Most decks, thanks to goblins, get around Wasteland as a sole mana denial strategy by running enough basic lands to cast their deck.

2. Yes, you will, actually. Or if not, the difference will be marginal. You'll lose some ground against other decks packing manlands, but by constantly having the right color mana at the right time, you'll have less trouble casting your removal spells to stop anything that might come in Pre-Standstill. In Landstill Mirrors, Nantuko Monestary is bigger than their guys. Your only real problems here are a cycled Decree of Justice and the 4C Mirror, which runs a larger risk than you do of not having the GW for their Monestary.

3. You weren't favored in those matchups anyway. But just in case, here's how to deal with them without Wastelands.

RISHADAN PORT: The biggest nightmare land Landstill has to face is Rishadan Port in Goblins. There's nothing as frustrating as sweeping Goblins' board and countering all their Ringleaders and then being unable to attack them for seven turns while they recover. Your solution? Board in your Meddling Mages. Your manabase will be strong enough without Wasteland to make them castable. Dig for Plagues, then Mage on Krosan Grip if you see a Taiga. If they're clever enough to board in Pyrokinesis or are somehow packing REB, Blue Elemental Blast or Force them. Swing for the win.

WASTELAND: Stifle it, or Loam/Crucible your land back. If they drop a Crucible, Counter or Disenchant it. If you pack Extirpate, use it to nail Loam.

OTHER MANLANDS: You have more of them, unless you're playing against 43 Land. Swords to Plowshares is your friend here, as it'll keep them from coming back for more. Nantuko Monestary is also bigger than Mishra's Factories that don't come in groups of three.

MAZE OF ITH: Sucks to be you. Chances are if you're facing this it's in a deck running 26 land or better and reliant on a Loam system, so try to Meddling Mage all their key points and get more Mages than they have Land.

RANDOM RECURRING ABILITY LANDS: This includes everything from Kjeldoran Outpost to that new Hellbent land to Academy Ruins to Volrath's Stronghold. You won't face these often. You might never face them. But they can hurt when you do. Deed away outpost tokens, kill them before the hellbent land kills you, hope they don't do broken shit with academy ruins, and so forth.

I haven't looked back since making this change, as I can still hang with Goblins just as well thanks to my improved manabase and the Plague/Plague/Mage-for-Grip plan. (I'm 5-6 in matches against Goblin decks since, which isn't bad considering a woeful 1-10 game 1 record.)

[jamest]

So I cut Wasteland.
I'm down to one Wasteland myself for the same reasons. If you look at my manabase, I have 13 green, 10 black, 10 white.


this is landstill, not loam; the reason we use crucible for recursion & not loam is because crucible goes under the standstill, which is the whole point of the deck... you play crucible, then standstill... you play under the standstill comfortably until they break the still; then you massively control the board and play another still, rinse wash repeat.
Crucible has better synergy with Standstill. Loam has better synergy with Deed. But here's the thing you missed: If I have the Loam engine going, I don't need Standstill at all. The amount of cards Loam will draw dwarfs anything Standstill can do. In fact, Standstill basically becomes FOW food once Loam is active. Don't get me wrong though; there are reasons Crucible is better than Loam (and vice versa) but synergy with Standstill is not one of them for me.

[Belgareth]

After doing some significant testing, I'm not entirely convinced the black splash is worth it. Basically, you get Deed (if splashing Green too), which is awesome, but has terrible synergy with Crucible; Engineered Plague, which helps in the Gobs match but you only need because you wrecked your manabase going 4c; and Duress, which is Good vs. other control (which you beat anyway), and Combo (which you can build to beat, if it isn't Solidarity). You sacrifice any kind of reliable manabase for it, and I think in a control deck it's much more important to hit the mana you need when you need it, rather than pack the deck full of powerful cards and not play them because you can't draw a manasource. I'm still unsure as to what colors are the best, but I know it won't be Black.

I agree, all my testing has indicated going 4 colours does not gain you enough to wreck your manabase.
I prefer the UWR landstill variant which is a solid deck and performs well against most of the field but is very dependant on the pilots abilities to make decisions.

[Tacosnape]

What are thoughts on Future Sight's Glittering Wish for UBGW Landstill? You'd almost have to cut back on Wasteland to run it due to colored mana constraints, but I think it could be very powerful.

I was thinking a miniature board (4-5 slots) could be comprised for 2 maindeck Glittering Wishes. Meddling Mage is already a target. Crime//Punishment has long been a 1-of in my deck (Kills Needles on Deed, steals kill conditions), and could be relegated to the board. Loxodon Hierarch could give the deck some much needed lifegain potential. The deck could support a Vindicate.

I thought about Absorb, but then essentially Glittering Wish has "UUGWW: Counter Target Spell", and getting five colored mana symbols is ehh.

That sets a board looking something like:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crime//Punishment
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Vindicate

And since we have lifegain with Hierarch, you could probably cut one Blue Elemental Blast for an additional slot. My immediate thought for this slot is Teferi's Moat, which would give 4C Landstill an outside game 1 chance against Goblins. Landstill's plan would be to stall the quick assault, dig for a Wish, drop the Moat, keep SGC off the board, and Deed away all other 4 mana or less Goblins while swinging with recurring Monestaries. It's not a -great- plan, but it's better than the current one.

If anyone has any other ideas for this, I'm all ears.

[jamest]

For more ideas about Glittering Wish, check out the Truffle Shuffle thread. Two cards that could go into the wishboard are Dueling Grounds and Pernicious Deed (to increase the frequency of it).

[Tacosnape]

I like Teferi's Moat here over Dueling Grounds, as my Landstill build rarely has aggro problems that don't have the creature type of Goblin. Dueling Ground tends to die to my Deeds, whereas Moat Survives Deeds of 4 or less.

[Solpugid]

Considering 4c landstill's main negative is the fragile mana base, is it possible to take the wastelands out of the maindeck to include 2 in the sideboard for matchups like thresh? That would keep it from screwing up games against goblins or the like, where it's very sub-par.

[jazzykat]

Has anyone considered a couple of Teferri's Responses in the boad? While highly situational they are quite relevant and the actual card advantage is the same as generated from standstill

[Tacosnape]

Considering 4c landstill's main negative is the fragile mana base, is it possible to take the wastelands out of the maindeck to include 2 in the sideboard for matchups like thresh? That would keep it from screwing up games against goblins or the like, where it's very sub-par.

I've tried it off and on, running 2 Wasteland in board. Right now it's Off and will likely stay that way. There's nothing I'd want to board it in against. At all.

You don't need Wasteland against Threshold. Threshold decks pack enough basics to Survive. Mishra's Factory will handle Nimble Mongoose all day long, and they don't have anything that can swing through a Monestary except Mystic Enforcer. Then it's on them to stop STP, Deed, and Diabolic Edict, all backed up by a deck as many hard counters as they are.

You could board them in against Vial Goblins to stop Rishadan Port, but then you're just weakening your manabase (Or your capacity to deal with threats.) The Plague/Plague/Mage plan is solid enough to handle it.

You could board them in against decks like 43 Land or Loam Control, but it's a futile effort. 43 Land will drop lands faster than you can waste them, and Loam Control has alternate kills and recovers just fine.

It takes a leap of faith to quit using Wasteland, but you'll be amazed how much more efficiently your deck works even without the Wastelock if you can just get your color-producers on the board.

As for the one Wasteland, it's a decent idea. It gives you the Wastelock without being particularly detrimental to your manabase. I actually spent a good amount of time trying to construct a Gifts Ungiven shell (One Wasteland, one Loam, one Darkblast, etc) in place of Fact or Fiction before deciding I just plain liked FoF better.

[Kadaj]

I might be the only person on the planet who still believes this, but I think old-school UW Landstill still has viability in the current metagame. With a properly built manabase (i.e, play enough basics so that port/wasteland doesn't wreck you) it can handle Goblins, maintain a good matchup against threshold through a critical mass of removal, beat other control by out landing them with Eternal Dragon and using Standstill and Crucible to maintain an advantage, and can take advantage of the sideboard to get a better matchup against High Tide and other combo (bring in Stifles/Meddling Mage and any other hate you might have).

Maybe it's not the best options for all the reasons it stopped being played, but frankly I really don't think 4c Landstill is the way to go either. A manabase that fragile causes a ridiculous amount of headaches and Pernicious Deed, as awesome as it is against most aggro, is unlikely to be fast enough against Goblins. Many players agree that 3 color Tog has no chance against goblins because of its clunky manabase, even though it also has access to Deed. I think the same principle applies here.

UWr Landstill might be a better overall option than straight UW, but I doubt 4c Landstill's manabase is worth the trouble it causes.

[Solpugid]

I would run UGB landstill (deed and damnation are available, with plenty of options for the swords slot) or UGW (access to krosan grip, which is better than disenchant, and nantuko monastery as a better finisher) before going UW or UWR.

That said, I've been testing 4c with the wastelands and plains removed for 1 polluted delta, and a scrubland, a savannah, and a bayou. This has made sure I have my support colors, and I also have one more blue source. So far the changes have been great. While I do feel rather odd running 0 basics, a single basic plains wasn't doing much to handle recurring wasteland anyway.

As another note, because I removed the plains the disenchant has become krosan grip (so much better in testing). And for anyone still thinking of using life from the loam over crucible, it's not worth it. Crucible is better.

[Tacosnape]

I might be the only person on the planet who still believes this, but I think old-school UW Landstill still has viability in the current metagame.

I agree. I think it's one of the strongest and most underrated decks around. UW Landstill's all over the Top 8 Page in Europe.


And for anyone still thinking of using life from the loam over crucible, it's not worth it. Crucible is better.

I stand in awe of the incredible logic behind your reasoning.

[Solpugid]

I stand in awe of the incredible logic behind your reasoning.

Haha, I guess I should elaborate a tad for those looking into it. Because 4c has such a fragile manabase, adding cycling lands is out of the question. Without those, loam doesn't live up to its full potential. Additionally, dredging is usually a bad idea in a deck that can (at times) have very specific answers. Needing green mana is also a pain.

But finally, crucible allows you to win attrition wars in which your manlands die frequently. I just played a match against a friend who was attacking me with large creatures (calciderm) that I couldn't just block and kill. So instead I just chumped with a factory and replayed it every turn. So really the utility of crucible given a long game (and you'll get to the late game for sure) makes it superior.

The final point I suppose (no really, it's the last one) is that crucible makes you less susceptible to grave hate taking threshold from monastery, but this point is minor.

On another note, I just tested smother in place of diabolic edict and I have been quite happy. It doesn't hit reanimator creatures (SSS or Akroma) or auriok salvagers, but I found pinpoint removal to be needed in aggro matchups.

And is there an artifact/enchantment removal spell with cycling, I hate getting stuck with dead cards.

[Bardo]

Hell, I'll hop in here too. A few months ago I had plenty of Life from the Loams in my collection but 0 Crucibles (this has changed). Seeing an earlier Landstill thread, I was pretty jazzed about LFTL since I didn't have the Crucibles and they seemed like a pain in the ass to acquire.

The shitty thing about LFTL is that it forces two things that are bad: continual mana upkeep and the very real possibility of breaking your or an opposing Standstill. Also, being in your off-color wasn't great in itself, though not a deal-breaker alone. Dredging I saw as a non-issue and helps if you're running Monastery, but is an otherwise negligible side effect. Sort of a bumb there.

So, I ran the LFTLs and they were very mediocre, often forcing me to keep counterspell mana open or regrow a Wasteland, etc. and I didn't like having to choose. A lot of times they would be in my hand, and I'd think "Damn, if only this were a Crucible."

Then I came into possession of a few Crucibles and dropped the LFTL and what a difference it made. Having no other mana commitments to regrowing your shit was priceless, as is doing so under Standstill. And if your Crucible gets countered or KGripp'd, that's why they printed Academy Ruins.

In short, Crucible > LFTL in Landstill.

Edit - Look at the mana requirements alone: regrow 3 Wastelands/Manlands with Crucible = 3 colorless mana; regrow 3 Wastelands/Manlands with LFTL = 3GGG*.

* Assuming you only have 1 of what you need available.

[Anarky87]

I also haven't seen posted yet how LFTL also makes you dump all the cards you need into your graveyard where you can't get them. What good is land recursion if you're dumping Deed, Fact, Swords, Brainstorm, and Edict into your yard where they are uselss?

[Bardo]

I also haven't seen posted yet how LFTL also makes you dump all the cards you need into your graveyard where you can't get them. What good is land recursion if you're dumping Deed, Fact, Swords, Brainstorm, and Edict into your yard where they are uselss?

Because it's only a myth (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10898.html) (see "Milling Away Good Cards") that dredge will affect the outcome of the game.

[Anarky87]

Because it's only a myth (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10898.html) (see "Milling Away Good Cards") that dredge will affect the outcome of the game.

I guess in one premeditated instance, yeah, it wouldn't affect it. He could have just as easily dredged Deed, Deed, Smother away, got back Moor, cycled and drew a land. GG. I don't see how dredging 30-36 cards a game has no affect on drawing relevant answers instead of throwing them away.

[Eldariel]

I guess in one premeditated instance, yeah, it wouldn't affect it. He could have just as easily dredged Deed, Deed, Smother away, got back Moor, cycled and drew a land. GG. I don't see how dredging 30-36 cards a game has no affect on drawing relevant answers instead of throwing them away.

Look, there's an equal chance for every card in your library being certain specific card, so milling yourself might either bring it closer or mill it away (and bring you closer to more copies). Yes, it happens, but since it's random milling, it doesn't really affect anything.

[Tacosnape]

Great. Apparently everyone likes to bring this discussion back from the dead.

First of all, Life From the Loam is superior in builds of 4C Landstill not packing Wasteland, which is my build. And you don't -need- Wasteland in 4C Landstill. Crucible Wastelock is nuts, granted, and if you're playing a more fragile build where getting the green is an act of god and you need to be able to drop that Crucible for any 3 and fix your manabase, so be it. In builds without Wasteland, though, you won't be hurting for Green.


Because it's only a myth (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10898.html) (see "Milling Away Good Cards") that dredge will affect the outcome of the game.

Correct. This is a mistake bad players make. It pays to know your math.


The final point I suppose (no really, it's the last one) is that crucible makes you less susceptible to grave hate taking threshold from monastery, but this point is minor.

Completely Wrong. Dredge can get you Threshold back ten times faster than Crucible can. And if they want to board in graveyard hate against Landstill? Awesome. That's less threats you have to deal with.


The shitty thing about LFTL is that it forces two things that are bad: continual mana upkeep (snip)

Edit - Look at the mana requirements alone: regrow 3 Wastelands/Manlands with Crucible = 3 colorless mana; regrow 3 Wastelands/Manlands with LFTL = 3GGG*.

*Assuming you only have 1 of what you need available.

That's a huge if. With Brainstorm, Standstill, FoF, and the fact that Loam can actually dig for business lands in a pinch, you'll very often only have to cast Life From The Loam once or twice a game to net 4-6 lands. And you have to keep that Crucible on the board. You aren't meant to play Life From The Loam like a Loam deck, where you do it every turn to generate card advantage. It can be boarded out, and if you get it earlier than you want it, send it back with a Brainstorm and a Fetchland. I rarely if ever cast Loam more than two or three times, but it's there if I need it and I don't have to protect it.

And on non-loam related notes...


And is there an artifact/enchantment removal spell with cycling, I hate getting stuck with dead cards.

Run Crime//Punishment. It'll get rid of Artifacts and Enchantments, as well as creatures, and it'll let you steal kill conditions from your opponent.

[Bardo]

First of all, Life From the Loam is superior in builds of 4C Landstill not packing Wasteland, which is my build. And you don't -need- Wasteland in 4C Landstill.

Simply on the grounds that I haven't tested 4c Landstill w/o Wasteland, I'll abstain from a judgement here. Re: Crucible/LFTL, I was talking from personal and plentiful experience with my U/B/g Landstill deck that has been testing superbly and where I did experiment with LFTL for a few weeks (out of necessity), before moving onto Crucible.

[Tacosnape]

Simply on the grounds that I haven't tested 4c Landstill w/o Wasteland, I'll abstain from a judgement here. Re: Crucible/LFTL, I was talking from personal and plentiful experience with my U/B/g Landstill deck that has been testing superbly and where I did experiment with LFTL for a few weeks (out of necessity), before moving onto Crucible.

Strangely enough, In UBG I actually like Crucible better. I think it's mostly because Eternal Witness kind of eliminates any worry I have about having to protect the Crucible.

[ScottCottrell]

The Sole reason LFTL is inferior to Crucible is that it invalidates the Standstill plan. In my extensive testing with BHWC the 1 time mana investment of Crucible is more than i want to spend and you only have to pay that ONCE. LFTL does nothing more than allow land recursion which Crucible does, however the noticeable differance in the two besides the obvious is that LFTL Removes your draw. This deck NEEDS to draw cards, why would you put in a card which makes you have to decide between wasteland locking someone or gaining card advantage, Crucible does BOTH. And if you have cycle lands to negate that draw back you might as well be playing BRG and not landstill.

[Tacosnape]

The Sole reason LFTL is inferior to Crucible is that it invalidates the Standstill plan. In my extensive testing with BHWC the 1 time mana investment of Crucible is more than i want to spend and you only have to pay that ONCE. LFTL does nothing more than allow land recursion which Crucible does, however the noticeable differance in the two besides the obvious is that LFTL Removes your draw. This deck NEEDS to draw cards, why would you put in a card which makes you have to decide between wasteland locking someone or gaining card advantage, Crucible does BOTH. And if you have cycle lands to negate that draw back you might as well be playing BRG and not landstill.

The problem with this forum is that nobody actually reads instead of just writing. Your "extensive" testing means nothing to me, as both online and in real life, I've put close to 1000 hours and played over 1500 games with this deck, and that's about a third of what I've put in with Landstill decks counting other versions. Your points have been addressed several times over and are as stale as the jokes in a Garfield comic strip.

Point 1: Life from the Loam does not, in any way, invalidate Standstill. You simply don't cast Life From The Loam when a Standstill is in play. If this causes you to be unable to be in control of the Standstill and Force your opponent to break it, then you aren't very good at assessing your game position and shouldn't have played the Standstill.

Point 2: Life from the Loam doesn't remove your draw unless you Dredge it. Dredging Life from the Loam is not the intended plan. Very often, as you said about Crucible, you only have to play Life From the Loam once, getting back two to three business lands as a result. The Dredge is auto-recursion, which is something Crucible doesn't have if it gets destroyed or countered. The Dredge is also a means of digging for manlands should you need to do so, but this necessity is highly rare.

Point 3: Even if you are Dredging Life from the Loam, it's not costing you the cards you think it is. That's cards you aren't having to spend countering attempted assaults on your Crucible, or replaying a second Crucible once you Deed your first one away.

Point 4: The Wastelock strategy is flawed. Other than Landstill mirrors, there aren't any decks you can completely shut down with a Wastelock anymore. They all run basic lands. And even if you provide slight disruption, so what? You're missing your own manland drops while you're doing this, so you aren't really providing the clock necessary to back up your disruption. Life from the Loam can do the Wastelock at a ridiculously suboptimal price, but why bother? There isn't a deck in existence that you can Wastelock that you can't similarly beat without the Wastelock except possibly 43 Land, and Wastelock isn't always fast enough to beat 43 Land when they're dropping 2+ lands a turn unless you managed to Force all early Explorations/Manabonds.

Point 5: You DO NOT have to have Cycling Lands to run Life From The Loam in this deck. And it is not being suggested under any circumstances that they be run. Kindly stop attacking Loam advocates on the point of Cycling lands when nobody has even remotely suggested they be run in a deck which I'm quite aware can't support them.

[jamest]

Up to this point, I haven't bothered commenting on Loam because Tacosnape has basically said everything I would've.


Point 5: You DO NOT have to have Cycling Lands to run Life From The Loam in this deck. And it is not being suggested under any circumstances that they be run. Kindly stop attacking Loam advocates on the point of Cycling lands when nobody has even remotely suggested they be run in a deck which I'm quite aware can't support them.
I suggest running cycle lands in my current decklist (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=123275#post123275).


Point 1: Life from the Loam does not, in any way, invalidate Standstill. You simply don't cast Life From The Loam when a Standstill is in play. If this causes you to be unable to be in control of the Standstill and Force your opponent to break it, then you aren't very good at assessing your game position and shouldn't have played the Standstill.
If you run cycle lands, then you don't have to worry about the conflict between Standstill and Loam, because if you have an active Loam, you don't need Standstill anymore. Standstill draws 3 cards. Loam draws lots more.

Tacosnape, what is your current 4c Landstill decklist?

[BreathWeapon]

I'm starting to get to the point where I don't think that Black is worth it in this deck, it forces the deck into a fourth color, and for what? MD Pernicious Deed and SB Engineered Plague and Duress?

Pernicious Deed is a serious design restraint on this deck, Engineered Explosives is similar to it in three colors and it's faster at removing specific targets, and while it isn't as powerful as Pernicious Deed, it doesn't require contortions to the manabase and doesn't remove the Crucible of Worlds, Vedalken Shackles and Chalice of the Void that are such amazing bombs in this deck.

Duress isn't needed, all the deck has to do is replace it with another combo hoser, like Orim's Chant or Chalice of the Void, and the deck is better off with out.

Engineered Plague is awesome, don't get me wrong, but there is bound to be another hose in U/g/w just for Goblins; Hunted Grounds and Chill aren't terrible ideas because they're useful against TES.

[Xero]

I'm starting to get to the point where I don't think that Black is worth it in this deck, it forces the deck into a fourth color, and for what? MD Pernicious Deed and SB Engineered Plague and Duress? Pernicious Deed is a serious design restraint on this deck, Engineered Explosives is similar to it in three colors and it's faster at removing specific targets, and while it isn't as powerful as Pernicious Deed, it doesn't require contortions to the manabase and doesn't remove the Crucible of Worlds, Vedalken Shackles and Chalice of the Void that are such amazing bombs in this deck.

I kind of agree with this. At that point though, is there any reason for Green? The only card you would need it for is Nantuko Monastery. That cards really good, but I don't know if its worth a splash color all by itself. I've been wondering for awhile if the old Uw color combo isn't just the best way to build the deck.

[BreathWeapon]

At this point, I'd rather use U/w/r instead of U/w/g just for 'Clasm, but after using Glittering Wish in this deck, I'd go back to U/w/g for it and Nantuko Monastery after the GP for certain, pulling Dueling Grounds, Mystic Enforcer, Loxodon Hierarch, Harmonic Sliver, Meddling Mage and Voidslime out of the SB is so good.

On another note, Engineered Explosives is amazing with a singleton of that land that recurs artifacts, and it protects Crucible of Worlds to.

[Tao]

Here in Germany people still play the deck U/W.

That gives you a much stronger mana base and free slots for cards like Stifle, Counterbalance/Top or Pulse of the Fields (underrated).

I have never seen the point in splashing B and G for Deed. Sure, Deed is a strong card, but Vengeance and Disk do the same thing a bit worse without adding 2 colors.

[Tacosnape]

Tacosnape, what is your current 4c Landstill decklist?

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monestary

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Life From The Loam

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Innocent Blood*
1 Crime//Punishment

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Extirpate**

*I can never decide between Diabolic Edict and Innocent Blood in this deck. Blood's cheaper and better against Goblin Lackey, but the instant speed of edict is often nice, as is the fact that it costs 2 and not 1 against Chalice Aggro decks like Faerie Stompy, so that Chalice for 1 doesn't kill half my removal. Right now I'm running 1 Blood for deck diversity and to give me 5 answers to Lackey on the draw instead of 4, which boosts my chances of having one to slightly better than 50%. ...Not that I really expect to beat Goblins game one anyway, but still.
**Might become three instead of the 5th Blast. Also might get cut entirely for a Glittering Wish board. Dunno yet.

The biggest notable exclusions in my build are Wasteland, Crucible, and Disenchant. I've said my piece about Loam against Crucible, and I've said most of what I want to say about Wasteland, other than reiterating that my manabase is incredibly consistent without it. Also, without Wasteland, Crucible loses a lot more punch than does Loam.

Disenchant I just never liked, as most of the time I wanted it I felt like I wanted it for Pithing Needle (Or on occasion Survival.) I rarely ran into mass manabase hosers, and when I did/do, I can usually counter them. I've toyed with running a single Krosan Grip in the maindeck slot where Innocent Blood is.

Crime//Punishment fit the bill perfectly for dealing with multiple Pithing Needle lockdown, though. Not only that, but Crime acts as a fantastic kill condition stealer. It can often singlehandedly let you steal games from Survival and Loam by Criming Genesis, not to mention that you can use it to steal Eternal Witness over and over and over again. It'll also steal an Enforcer (Or a Mage!) against Threshold, steal Aura of Silence against Enchantress, steal Rifts against Rifter, steal Dark Confidants or Jotun Grunts against fish decks, and so forth. I've even stolen a Leyline of the Void in a drawn out game against Iggy Pop. I never want to see it early in the game, and I'm quick to Brainstorm it back into my library, but midgame, I'm almost never sorry to see it come my way. It's subpar Pernicious Deed #5 and a kill condition outside of your manlands.

My sideboard evolves a lot based on the meta. In scrub Metas with chances of Burn and R/G Sligh, or in Goblin-heavy fields, I like the five blasts. I can and do beat Burn decks with Landstill, though game one's rough and that brings the match down to about 50/50. R/G Sligh's much easier, as my creature removal makes more of a difference.

In more combo-based Metas, I sneak down to 3 Blasts and pack a couple of Orim's Chants. A lot of combo decks have trouble going off through the six-way combination of Meddling Mage, Force of Will, Counterspell, Stifle, Orim's Chant, and Extirpate. Extirpate may not be all that against Epic Storm or Solidarity, but it totally savages alternate combo decks like Aluren and Gamekeeper Salvagers.

All in all, I love the build. I crush almost all aggro-control decks with my build, including Deadguy Ale and Red Death, which to my knowledge have good matchups against most 4C Landstill due to the wronky manabase. I do very well against most aggro except Goblins, which I can pull to about 35-65 or maybe even 40-60 after a near-certain game one loss, which is pretty good. I don't have much trouble with Combo that isn't named Solidarity, though Epic Storm can sometimes be fast enough to just plow through me. My only real nightmare match I never want to see is a true Loam deck (With Manlands and Wastelands), as I struggle mightily to win this matchup without Extirpate, and even with Extirpate it's bad.

[Oathmaster]

Hello Everyone,

I use to be a huge fan of this deck and play it for a while. I presently have a UBG version built and I have to say I miss decree of justice, swords and meddling mage. I do like, however, splashing a 3rd color but not a fourth color. I tried 4 color landstill and found the same conclusion that many people have posted, that the manabase is to weak and unstable.

I do believe after testing out UBG that white has to be in the deck. It just does not have the same tempo or smoothness without it. I love deed, but white offers so much more.

Does anyone have a worthy tournament list of a UWR Landstill deck? I know Mr. Nightmare mentioned a couple post ago that this may be the best color combination for the deck and on paper I may have to agree.

[morgan_coke]

I know this isn't being discussed right now by anyone, and it has been talked about before in the past, but is there any reason a U/W build couldn't run Armageddon instead of Wasteland? I think straight U/W, or U/w/g (for glittering Wish/monastery) or U/W/r (for pyroclasm/b. ring) would benefit a lot from the inclusion of one-two Armageddons. U/w/g has the best color stability combinations, and the best manland, and a pretty solid Wish, so maybe it could look something like this:

[deck]decklist i realized was really bad once i finished typing it[/dekc]

ok, i'm not the best landstill deckbuilder, but i think some cards to include in a u/w/g armageddon build could be Moment's Peace and Glittering Wish, with things like Teferi's Moat, Dueling Grounds, Voidslime, SSS, Trygon Predator/Harmonic Sliver, Loxodon Hierarch, Priviliged Position, Mirari's Wake, Temporal Spring, Mystic Snake, Jungle Barrier, Meddling Mage, Shadow of Doubt, and Absorb as Wish targets.

The combination of control cards, crucible, standstill, and armageddon just seems really, really strong to me, with armageddon acting as a strong reset/defense button for the deck and eliminating annoying things such as rishadan ports, while E.E. and academy ruins do a nice job of shutting down stuff like aether vial that would otherwise counteract the landstill strategy.

moment's peace also seems like a great answer to goblins that will buy you the time to hit four mana for a wrath.

[Tacosnape]

Armageddon seems very questionable considering it's an equilibrium-effect card (meaning it does the same thing to both players) that you usually counter if the other guy plays it.

It's dead if you aren't packing a Crucible (Or maybe Loam in UGW) to set up the recovery, and gimmicky sub-combos are as a rule bad unless the cards function well on their own. Wasteland, while I may not like it enough to run in any 4-color builds, is worlds better in a random situation than Armageddon.

Armageddon is also only strong if you have the board locked down, and often you'll be defending with Mishra's Factories in UW until they drop enough threats to make your Wrath a mathematically beneficial play. Or there could be an Aether Vial in play. And if you -do- have the board locked down, you should be able to keep it so.

So basically, what matches/situations are you improving with it?

[Whit3 Ghost]

Rsaunder and I tested BHWCC Landstill. By no means is it a bad deck, but the manabase is inconsistant and relies incredibly too much on Pernicious Deed.

Scott (overlord95) top8ed the running GAGG with Duck Hunt (UB Landstill)

Noone's really bothered to play mono colored landstill because of certain people claiming the deck sucked just because the metagame shifted. This is changing

[Tacosnape]

Incoherent baseless babble attacking Tacosnape for making points, correct or not, with logical reasons behind them, correct or not.

The only part of this I will justify with any sort of response is why my decks don't T8 at Major tournaments: I can't financially afford to travel between 10-14 hours for them and they don't hold them much closer than that. I hate that I can't afford to go to the Grand Prix this year. Now obviously, I can't sit here and say that I know for a fact I would top 8 at any given Major Tournament if I went, as I know there would be better players than myself there, but I feel I'm capable of a Top 8 on a good day, considering I've played in over 20 tournaments ranging from 9 to 28 people and never once failed to come in 3rd or better.

I never once declared BHWC Landstill was bad. It's anything but. I don't add bad decks to my real-life repertiore. But the manabase is incredibly inconsistent as anyone who has played it knows. My build aims to correct those inconsistencies at the expense of the Crucible/Wasteland lock, which it most definitely does. Whether that tradeoff is worthwhile is the issue at hand, and I feel like it is, as my points illustrate.

And if you read the thread, I never brought up the Loam versus Crucible debate and I never do. I merely defend and counter points that people make with points of my own. Which is what the nature of forums are. In fact, Definition #3 of Forum on Dictionary.com says 3. an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest. Although, by your grammar, I'm guessing you didn't know this.

[lyracian]

My personal oppinon is that you do not want more than three colours in the deck to have a decent mana base and since Nantuko Monastary is the best man land that points me towards using UWG.

Has anyone thought of experimenting with Epochrasite since it will come back as a 4/4 every time you destroy the world? or perhaps I am the only person that really like it as a card! :o)

[Tacosnape]

I sort of like UGW in theory, too. Glittering Wish ought to make it much more viable, and the ability to possibly run Witness is also nice.

The problem I run into with UGW is that I get absolutely crushed by Goblins. Teferi's Moat in board as a wish target might help, but I dunno. Anyone come up with any amazing tech on how to fix this? Should the deck just take the Glass Cannon approach and try to crush everything except Goblins?

You also lose Extirpate for Life from the Loam-based decks, but I'm not sure anyone besides me was running that.

[morgan_coke]

If you're UWG, I think Moment's Peace really could be the tech landstill needs to beat goblins' faces in. game one wishing for a teferi's moat or dueling grounds would also be some good. But mostly I think Peace is your best answer here, coupled with some form of discard to empty the dangerous goblins (ringleader, matron) out of their hands before they're cast. (or wrathing with countermagic up).

[lyracian]

While weaker than Deed I was wondering about Engineered Explosives to help against goblins since most of there deck is very low cc.

[jamest]

My personal oppinon is that you do not want more than three colours in the deck to have a decent mana base ...
I don't think running a 4c manabase is such a big concern. In testing with MD Loam, I'm around 50/50 against black based disruption decks like B/w Confidant, and Tacosnape reported some success in that matchup as well. If our manabase was really so fragile, we should've had no chance in that matchup.

[Nydaeli]

The problem I run into with UGW is that I get absolutely crushed by Goblins. Teferi's Moat in board as a wish target might help, but I dunno.

Dueling Grounds is an amazing Wish target for the Goblins matchup. Obviously you can still get burned out by Siege-Gang + infi Goblins, but it buys you a bunch of time.

[Nightmare]

For an example of a UGw build (that doesn't run Loam) please check out this thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5672) in Tournament Reports. I went 4-2, after losing 2 incredibly tight matchups.

Edit - Humility > Goblins/Survival, 2 of your classically difficult matchups.

[Tacosnape]

Solid tech with the Humility and Wrath of God, Mr. N. I kind of always forget that double mana symbols become an option again outside of the 4C Manabase. My only concern would be the ever-annoying Krosan Grip. And I don't argue your choice of Crucible there. Wastelock is far far more supportable when your color base only has to handle 3 colors, and without Deed in the way, there's no reason not to run it. I assume you considered Tivadar's Crusade? Was it just not versatile enough to compete for a slot in the face of Wrath and Humility?

Also, Dueling Grounds seems nice on paper (It and Teferi's Moat have been my big two), but you'll lose the long battle here without a permanent solution or several boardsweepers. Wrath might work here, though.

I actually don't have all that much trouble with Survival (I'm better than 50/50 against any given build, but not overwhelmingly so), more than likely due to the single Crime//Punishment. It steals Genesis, which shuts off their recursion and gives you a big 4/4 Threat, and if you have to Swords it, you still shut off their recursion. Other than that, Stifles on Witness and Counters on Survival do the job for me usually. I also resist all temptation to Stifle Survival's fetchlands. Stifle on a Witness will do a much better job of keeping them from ever getting Survival online.

And yes, my results against B/W Confidant are fantastic. 6-1 matchwise, currently. I consider it to be one of the easiest matchups I have. While ditching Wastelock and running Loam in 4C might make a few matchups harder, they have no better point than to make B/W Confidant ridiculously easy. Red Death isn't much more difficult (Don't have a documented record here, but I know I'm like X-2, where X is somewhere between 4-6), though Magus of the Moon might make this significantly tougher if they start boarding it.

[mikekelley]

What about Tombstalker as a 2-of once FS hits? Could prove to be a great finisher. Sometimes I find myself wishing for one or more beaters in here.

[Tacosnape]

Depends on which build you're suggesting it for.

In Duck Hunt, maybe. I think Duck Hunt runs a The Abyss (That feels weird to say, "a The Abyss."), in which case Tombstalker = Bad, but The Abyss isn't always in play.

In 4C Landstill, Tombstalker isn't anything special. His Delve eats at your Monestary power and ability to replay things with Loam or Crucible. He also doesn't pitch to force, which makes me much more apt to run Morphling or Vorosh, the Hunter.

In UWB it could have a home, though, as UWB doesn't run Monestary. Dunno if it's worth the slot, but it's testable I suppose.

[Anarky87]

Does anyone have a list for the UWb Landstill?

[Nightmare]

Geoff Smelski's list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=127858&postcount=392).

[Citrus-God]

I guess Engineered Explosives are the new Nevinyrral's Disks. I really like Smelski's list. He literally mixed it together with Duck Hunt, and added our favorite White cards too! For a moment there, I thought it was gonna run 4 WoG, and 3 Damnation.

Personally, I think Nightmare's list is the way to go. Monastery + Humility = Game versus aggro. Add that with Glittering Wish for Terferi's Moat will make it game agaisnt a everything with Creatures?

[Bardo]

For an example of a UGw build (that doesn't run Loam) please check out this thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5672) in Tournament Reports. I went 4-2, after losing 2 incredibly tight matchups.

Edit - Humility > Goblins/Survival, 2 of your classically difficult matchups.

Any plan on running Horizon Canopy when it becomes legal?

Here's the current version of my U/B/g list:

VoroshStill List (4/29/07)

// Lands
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Island

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Stifle

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 4 Vinelasher Kudzu
SB: 2 Infest
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void

Tech abounds. The Faerie Conclave can suck balls though. I might go back to Treetop Village or hold out for Wizards to print a better manland.

[Tacosnape]

Any plan on running Horizon Canopy when it becomes legal?

Not I, said the Taco. If I had room for sneaky lands, I'd be running things that fuel Life from the Loam. But Landstill's manabase is usually pretty tight as is. And lands coming into play tapped can't be a good idea unless they kill people.

[Nihil Credo]

Stalking Stones? Urza's Factory?

[Bardo]

Not I, said the Taco. If I had room for sneaky lands, I'd be running things that fuel Life from the Loam. But Landstill's manabase is usually pretty tight as is. And lands coming into play tapped can't be a good idea unless they kill people.

Well, I was specifically looking at the Savannah in Adam's list and thinking: "There's got to be something better." Canopy Horizon* + Crucible = :)

Also, Canopy doesn't CIPT. You might have missed that, or were confusing it with my techy Tolaria West: which is a tutor for EE, Chalice, Tabernacle, Ruins, Wasteland, etc. or a shitty but gorgeous looking island in the worst case.


Stalking Stones?

:) Thank you.


* The art is absurdly sweet too. Not so with the Stones.

[lyracian]

If I pick up a Canopy Horizon I will try it out. Pain land with draw could be interesting.

[Tacosnape]

Also, Canopy doesn't CIPT. You might have missed that, or were confusing it with my techy Tolaria West: which is a tutor for EE, Chalice, Tabernacle, Ruins, Wasteland, etc. or a shitty but gorgeous looking island in the worst case.

Way to rtfc, Tacosnape. This might change my previous stance on it. It could be feasible.

[Muradin]

What do you think of this build:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wateland
4 Mishras Factory
1 Faery Conclave
2 Plains
3 Island

1 Seal of cleansing
1 Pithing needle
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
1 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Senseis Divining Top
2 Decree of Justice
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 enlightened tutor

Counterbalance improves some of the most problematic matchups like Burn and Loamdecks.
Furthermore it improves some of the already favorable matchups of the deck.
The price for this addition was the loss of Eternal Dragon, Vengeance and disk.
Do you have any ideas on this build?

[Tacosnape]

I've thrown that in MWS and am going to try it out when I get some time. I've always pondered Counterbalance in this and never seen a build before.

[mikekelley]

I played UGB landstill today at a local tournament. I didn't have all the cards, I couldn't find a second crucible or 2 fact or fictions. i get home today and what is sitting in my mailbox, you guessed it, facts and a crucible. ugh. anyway, I played extirpate main for the day. Holy shit, that card is a house in this deck. We have tons of board sweepers and whatnot. Maybe as just a 1 or 2 of. really, the card is absurd here.

i ran damnation as well, i didn't like it that much. i was always tapping out for it and half the time i played it, it was countered. the removal like deed, edict, duress and so on seems to work a lot better.

So, the point of this post is, that Extirpate is just amazing in here. Vs. thresh it shuts down the win conditions, no more annoying meddling mage vs. every deck that plays it, and the list goes on. I don't know if it warrants 4 slots, but I was very happy with two.

[Anarky87]

I played 4c Landstill to a 7-2 record on Day 1, putting me in 75th place out of 883. I was initially going to play Fish, but after getting creamed in two of the flights I entered (I came to play Legacy, $40 wasted be damned!) by other aggro-control/weenie aggro decks, I decided to play something with Deed and blue control/draw for Flash. Enter 4c Landstill (Which by the way, might seem pretty janky, but hey, I threw it together in a hurry):

4 Strand
3 Trops
3 Tundra
3 Seas
4 Factories
3 Monasteries
3 Wasteland
1 Island

4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle (Friend told me it might be good, and it did help protect my manabase alot and piss off Flash players)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 FoF
4 StP
4 Deed
2 Edict
2 Crucible
1 Vindicate (I don't know, same friend said it might be better because it could hit more than Disenchant could)

4 Leyline
4 Plague
4 Mage
3 Duress

So yeah, for both days I went 3-1 against Goblins, 1-1 against Fish, 1-1 against Flash, 1-0 against...um, this Sligh thing, 0-1 against a LftL thing (because I played like an ass), and 2-0 against Deadguy/Poxish type decks. That's all I can really remember. I still hate my manabase and Wasteland pretty much pisses me off more than anything. I meant to ask Overlord what his list looked like while I was there, so if you're reading this, Scott, could you PM me your list, because I've been tooling with a UWb version since I got back to the hotel.

[Tacosnape]

How did the Vindicate work out for you? I've always wanted to try that in my 4C Landstill but I never got around to it. Crime//Punishment lives in its slot instead for me.

I'd also love to hear any more details about how your matches went, about what was awesome for you and what sucked, and so forth.

[Anarky87]

Well, let's see. Vindicate was sorta meh for me most of the time, I didn't really find it all that spectacular because I needed both White and Black and that was at times hard to achieve. I think C/P might be better since it's in a color combination you're already working toward (GB).

My matches went smooth for all of day 1, and then I crapped out on day 2 with bad draws or mistakes. Happens I guess. I think my rounds went:

Round 1: Goblins (W)
Round 2: UWb Fish (L)
Round 3: Flash (W)
Round 4: Sligh (W)
Round 5: B/w Pox (W)
Round 6: Aluren (L) (Phil Stolze)
Round 7: Goblins (W)
Round 8: UWb Fish (W)
Round 9: B/W Deadguy Aggro? (W) (Ben Carp)

Putting me at 7-2. Day 2 I played against Flash first round and he had 3 Flashes to go with the Hulk he brainstormed into on the turn before he was gonna die. I then beat Goblins again round 2, lost to Adrian Sullivan because I made a terrible mistake in game 2, and then lost to Goblins round 3 when I had to mull to 4 in game 3 and he had double Waste for both my lands. I never recovered.

Deed was awesome, StP was awesome, my counter suite was amazing. Wasteland was not amazing, too much non-colored sources, and after talking with Jack Elgin at the GP, I've since cut it from the list and in the UWb list I've been tinkering with.

[Tacosnape]

Wasteland was not amazing, too much non-colored sources, and after talking with Jack Elgin at the GP, I've since cut it from the list and in the UWb list I've been tinkering with.

This is what I've been advocating for months. I don't like Wasteland in Landstill and never have.

I notice you aren't packing Hydroblast or BEB in your sideboard. Did you miss them? You seemed to do incredibly well against Goblins even without them. My current board is identical to yours, only I have Blasts in place of the Duresses.

[Anarky87]

This is what I've been advocating for months. I don't like Wasteland in Landstill and never have.

I notice you aren't packing Hydroblast or BEB in your sideboard. Did you miss them? You seemed to do incredibly well against Goblins even without them. My current board is identical to yours, only I have Blasts in place of the Duresses.

Actually, no, I didn't miss them all day and I literally used every single card in my SB. My favorite line from the day was after I beat the Flash player game one and boarded in 11 cards and he says kinda disheartened, "...Boarded in quite a few cards there, huh?"

I pretty much relied solely on Plague to seal games, except for game 1's of course :wink:, while I used the other cards to get me into the late game and protect Plague. I don't know if either of the blasts are needed, but I managed to perform pretty well in the Goblins match without them.

I'd definitely cut Wasteland for maybe a couple more fetches (I always wanted more throughout both days and made a comment that maybe it was because I always play decks with 7-8) and another land or something. Perhaps like:

4 Factory
3 Monastery
4 Strand
2 Delta
4 Tundra
3 Trops
3 Seas
1 Island

At times I wonder if the deck is trying to do too much by needing UUGWB pretty fast in most games. Alot of games I won, btw, were because I totally went aggro on people. I'd get to 7 cards in my GY pretty fast countering/StPing/drawing/fetching and then just start beating down for 4-6 a turn. That was so much fun.

And apparently I ended up in 114th after Day 2 when I dropped at 8-5 after being 75th on Day 1. I was pretty happy with how I did, being my first GP and all.

[jrp]

I also played 4cLandstill (BHWC) at GP Columbus. I finished at 11-4 in 30th place. I might write a tournament report, but just in case I don't...

This is the list I played at the GP:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastery

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Counterspell
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime//Punishment

SB
4 Meddling Mage
2 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Blue Elemental Blast


I had to play against Flash 7 times in total!!! (Rounds 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and twice day 2). I lost three times to Flash, and my only other loss was to Burn in Round 10. MD Price of Progress ---> WHAT A BEATING!!!

Anyways, I have finals I should be studying for, if I find some time I'll do a tournament report, and some justifications for some of the random cards that I put in the deck.

[Tacosnape]

At times I wonder if the deck is trying to do too much by needing UUGWB pretty fast in most games. Alot of games I won, btw, were because I totally went aggro on people. I'd get to 7 cards in my GY pretty fast countering/StPing/drawing/fetching and then just start beating down for 4-6 a turn. That was so much fun.


Sometimes getting UUGWB is difficult. But if Landstill does get UUGWB, it turns insanely nutbar strong against a large field. So I agree with not running Wastelands.

I used to run 6 fetches, the 3-3 Strand/Delta split, and then 4 Seas, 4 Tundras, and 3 Tropicals. I since cut back to 5 fetches and 4/4/4 Duals (4 factories and 3 monestaries also), but this has turned a little inconsistent for me and I keep finding myself hurting for a color from time to time, so I may go back to six. Kind of depends on the quantity of Stifles floating around, I think. I played a best of 7 against a Flash-meta Sui Black yesterday and dropped down to 1-3 before winning the last three games, but I was disappointed in how my usually consistent manabase started losing me games. I'm not really sure yet if this was from only running 5 fetchlands instead of 6 or if I was just having an unlucky few games.

Try out Crime//Punishment in the Vindicate slot. Sometimes it's absolutely amazing. It sweeps that Needle combo where they've shut down both Deed and Factory or Monestary, and it's absolutely incredible when people are playing Genesis against you and you Crime the bastard and suddenly they lose their whole game plan against you.:)

I'm scared to play without the blasts, especially since I know the second I do I'll run across the random Burn deck I can't beat otherwise. But maybe I'll give it a go.

[Sea R Hill]

This is what I've been advocating for months. I don't like Wasteland in Landstill and never have.


Maybe in the HF meta it's not that good. But I can't imagine not running wasteland. I won so much matches with the cruci-waste lock.

[Anarky87]

I don't think I won any matches either day with a Waste lock. Jack told me Sunday that if you're at the part in the game where a Wastelock is winning you the game, then you were already winning. There were a lot of times where I had to mulligan hands that, had Wasteland magically (that's the name of the game, isn't it?) produced colored mana, would have been awesome. But I had to send them back for subpar hands. Although I did stall out a Goblins player Day 1 with multiple Wastelands and we were both in top deck and I just happened to draw out of it first. But doing so didn't gain me any tempo or edge, because I was also out of lands. I was breaking even on the trade, luckily I was able to come out on top.

I have a pretty rough list of a UWb list I've been messing around with, and I think I'll post it for improvement:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Cabal Pit (Interesting tech against Fish/weenie aggro/Goblins. It beat my friend playing Fish)
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
3 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Decree of Justice
1 Disenchant

I'm sure it looks pretty unspectacular, but it was just an idea I had when I brainstormed with my other friends after I dropped from the GP. I liked the idea of UWb and after seeing Smelski's, decided to change a few things up here and there. I watched another Landstill player at the GP running Cabal Pit too totally own the Fish match. My friend could literally not keep a creature down before it got 'Pitted' off the table. Academy Ruins just seems good by continually recycling your Crucibles and Explosives. The SB I have now is just the same one from the GP. I think it was a solid SB that could tackle just about any deck it needed to and believe I'll keep it tweaked for awhile. But that's all I have.

[Tacosnape]

Jack told me Sunday that if you're at the part in the game where a Wastelock is winning you the game, then you were already winning.

Jack is absolutely correct, as usual.


Maybe in the HF meta it's not that good. But I can't imagine not running wasteland.

Better start imagining it. 3-4 color decks can't afford to run 9-11 colorless producing lands. And you'll lose more games from mana problems and having to mulligan otherwise excellent starting hands than you will win off Wastelock.

[Nydaeli]

UWb list

Since Cabal Pit is the only black card in the maindeck, is this really better than UWr? You could run Barbarian Ring in its place, and Pyroclasm over Plague in the board. I guess you're weakening the Flash matchup a bit without Duress. Meh, we'll see if you need it in eleven days.

[Citrus-God]

Then should Crucible still be in the deck then? Against creature decks, recurring blockers is good, especially a Monastery, which is just a busted blocker/threat. I know when UW Landstill was starting to be known as "obsolete," the newer builds wanted an edge against the Landstill mirror, so it resorted to things like cutting CoW for more cyclers. I say this time, we run actual lands. Wasteland forces us to mulligan more than we would like to. When having a CoW active, having mana advantage and recurring threats/blockers should already serve enough as utility.

I'm testing this deck right now with those applied theories...


// Lands 24
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Plains
2 Island


// Spells 37
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cunning Wish
3 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds


// Sideboard 15
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Hail Storm
1 Trickbind
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Forbid
1 Misdirection
-Actual SB-
1 Counterbalance
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt



Counterbalance is nuts. Usually, Counterbalance gets countered a lot, hence the entire playset here. SDT is here in place of Brainstorm, and it seems Fact or Fiction is way too busted to even be played in 2-3. A full playset is what I opt for. Counterbalance at 4 counters Ringleader, 3 counters Matrons, Warcheifs, and much more. I designed the deck to no suck that much against Vial Goblins, and still do somewhat well against Flash.

Cunning Wish was simply amazing as just general utility. MDed was inspired by Nightmare's deck, and the man plan was brilliant in Landstill. I will keep testing this deck, and will post if I have decent results.

[Tacosnape]

Then should Crucible still be in the deck then? Against creature decks, recurring blockers is good, especially a Monastery, which is just a busted blocker/threat.

Nope. If you're running Deed, it should be Life from the Loam. I'm gaining ground on convincing the world Wasteland is bad in Landstill. Eventually I'll convince them of this too.:laugh:

[Citrus-God]

Nope. If you're running Deed, it should be Life from the Loam. I'm gaining ground on convincing the world Wasteland is bad in Landstill. Eventually I'll convince them of this too.:laugh:

ehh.... Spending two mana every 3 turns seems alright..... it's uncounterable, so it beats the living hell out of Aggro-Control decks.

[Tacosnape]

ehh.... Spending two mana every 3 turns seems alright..... it's uncounterable, so it beats the living hell out of Aggro-Control decks.

It also has inevitability, since that's the new sexy word in magic phraseology.

I'm actually experimenting with a build that doesn't maindeck either Loam -or- Crucible in wake of every deck in existence either A. Being Flash, or B. Playing Leyline of the Void. Since Crucible and Loam are both garbage against Flash and garbage aginst Leyline, this is seeming like a fair option should Flash remain legal.

[Citrus-God]

It also has inevitability, since that's the new sexy word in magic phraseology.

I'm actually experimenting with a build that doesn't maindeck either Loam -or- Crucible in wake of every deck in existence either A. Being Flash, or B. Playing Leyline of the Void. Since Crucible and Loam are both garbage against Flash and garbage aginst Leyline, this is seeming like a fair option should Flash remain legal.


So we're gonna run MDed Spell Snares and Extirpate?

[Tacosnape]

So we're gonna run MDed Spell Snares and Extirpate?

I don't think I'm this desperate yet. Maindeck Extirpate in Landstill seems horrible, and Spell Snare seems chancy in anything that has to play a long game to win. On the other hand, Spell Snare might end up being better than we think, since every deck in that top eight would be solidly hurt by it.

In all seriousness, though, the cards I'm testing for that slot are Meddling Mage and Diabolic Edict. A pair of maindecked Mages isn't terribly outrageous and might help the Flash match a bit. And going up to 4 maindeck Edicts would make our Fish and Black Aggro games all the better. I've also contemplated Counterbalance, but I don't really want to run the Top to support it and I don't know how good it would be with only Brainstorm empowering it. Plus it dies to Deed horribly, so I'm guessing 4C isn't the build for it.

[tylerwylie]

Well, let's see. Vindicate was sorta meh for me most of the time, I didn't really find it all that spectacular because I needed both White and Black and that was at times hard to achieve. I think C/P might be better since it's in a color combination you're already working toward (GB).

My matches went smooth for all of day 1, and then I crapped out on day 2 with bad draws or mistakes. Happens I guess. I think my rounds went:

Round 1: Goblins (W)
Round 2: UWb Fish (L)
Round 3: Flash (W)
Round 4: Sligh (W)
Round 5: B/w Pox (W)
Round 6: Aluren (L) (Phil Stolze)
Round 7: Goblins (W)
Round 8: UWb Fish (W)
Round 9: B/W Deadguy Aggro? (W) (Ben Carp)

Putting me at 7-2. Day 2 I played against Flash first round and he had 3 Flashes to go with the Hulk he brainstormed into on the turn before he was gonna die. I then beat Goblins again round 2, lost to Adrian Sullivan because I made a terrible mistake in game 2, and then lost to Goblins round 3 when I had to mull to 4 in game 3 and he had double Waste for both my lands. I never recovered.

Deed was awesome, StP was awesome, my counter suite was amazing. Wasteland was not amazing, too much non-colored sources, and after talking with Jack Elgin at the GP, I've since cut it from the list and in the UWb list I've been tinkering with.

I remember playing you, you stifled many of my wastelands =(.

I was playing Pox by the way, you beat me 2-1.

[Anarky87]

I remember playing you, you stifled many of my wastelands =(.

I was playing Pox by the way, you beat me 2-1.

Really? It was great playing you, I enjoyed just chatting between games, because that first game was insane! Sorry about the Stifles, I drew the most in those games than I did all day. And I knew it was either Mono black Pox or B/w, because I saw Scrublands. But you totally tooled me the 2nd game. Good games, good games. :smile:

[tylerwylie]

Yup that was me. I think I won the 2nd game because you didn't Stifle any of my Wastelands :mad:. To be honest I've never played against 4 Color Landstill, just my friend's UW build, which owns me a lot since he runs > 23 lands that sometimes it's hard for me to keep up with destroying.

Proper manabases really are a wonderful thing to have in Legacy, and Landstill is one of the only decks that'll run a proper manabase which is why I love the deck, though I never got to Vindicate the Crucible either, which would've maybe enabled me to keep up with you. It's the price I pay, taking out Crucible to help my early game against aggro, and help me waste Threshold and Fish into oblivion. Hopefully you won't draw as many Stifles next time we play. :cool:

[Jak]

I feel that white is unnecessary for the deck because swords is nice and all, but I would rather just add more sweepers. So I present to you my list.

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

Counters
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle

Sweepers / Creature Control
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime/Punishment
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles

Random Tech
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Haunting Echoes

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
2 Misdirection

SB needs some work. I want to add more stuff for combo. Misdirection is nice to steal some draw spells or something which sets back a lot of decks. I really like it. I would like to add some more win conditions in their so I can speed up some games. Thoughts?

[Nightmare]

Swords costs 1 mana. Most of your sweepers cost 4 or 5 to do the same thing.

[Anarky87]

Since Cabal Pit is the only black card in the maindeck, is this really better than UWr? You could run Barbarian Ring in its place, and Pyroclasm over Plague in the board. I guess you're weakening the Flash matchup a bit without Duress. Meh, we'll see if you need it in eleven days.

I think maybe if Flash wasn't a concern, I might switch to red for Ring and 'Clasm. But as for right now, black is needed for Duress against Flash and other control/Fish decks and since I'm in black for that, I'll run Plague, which kills their Goblins dead. It also creates dead draws when they're looking for their enchantment hate, because drawing into a bunch of Goblins they can't cast is good. I just like Plague in that since, because it doesn't allow them to combo out and kill you, and landing the 2nd one takes out all their creatures until they answer it. That seems pretty good to me.

When they ban flash, I'll consider the -2 Pits, -4 Plague for +2 Rings and +4 Pyroclasms, but then Duress will have to be replaced with something else.

[tylerwylie]

I feel that white is unnecessary for the deck because swords is nice and all, but I would rather just add more sweepers. So I present to you my list.

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

Counters
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle

Sweepers / Creature Control
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime/Punishment
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles

Random Tech
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Haunting Echoes

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
2 Misdirection

SB needs some work. I want to add more stuff for combo. Misdirection is nice to steal some draw spells or something which sets back a lot of decks. I really like it. I would like to add some more win conditions in their so I can speed up some games. Thoughts?

I'm going to try a build like this, but I'm going to try to run another kill mech as well, maybe Conclaves or something else, but other than that looks like fun, can't wait to give Landstill a try.

[Anarky87]

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
2 Cabal Pit

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Ghastly Demise/Vendetta/Smother/Edict/Something

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Haunting Echoes


That's probably what I'd try. I think you really need some kind of removal at the 1cc/2cc range to handle something like the turn 1 Lackey when you don't have Force. I've been loving Pit in testing, so I'd run it in my build.

And if you're looking for more kill, you could always try Adam's Ugw list. I've worked a build like his to this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah (I'd probably just run the third Tropical)
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Disenchant

[Jak]

I totally forgot about demise and edict. Demise is definitely a four of. I think the deck is a ton of fun. I would cut a shackles and the crime/punishment and have to work 2 more in. I really like shackles because of it being another win condition. Plus stealing a creature is just fun. I will probably try and go with a list more like this.

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Ghastly Demise

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Haunting Echoes

Something like this, but minus two cards.

[Sea R Hill]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah (I'd probably just run the third Tropical)
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Disenchant


Is it worth running green and having a weak manabase just for Nantuko Monastery?

[Nightmare]

Is it worth running green and having a weak manabase just for Nantuko Monastery?Yes. Between Monastery and Krosan Grip from the board, splashing green is completely worth it.

[Anarky87]

Is it worth running green and having a weak manabase just for Nantuko Monastery?

Monastery gives you a clock and takes down pretty much any threat you come across. Green also lets you play EE for the same amount as other builds (save for 4c). There really is no weakness in the manabase. Mr. Nightmare played a UWg build to a 4-2 record and he believed it to be the strongest build he's played. Draw your own conclusions.

[mustang8907]

there is only 2 reasons to run green in landstill, and that is for monastary(which is amazing) and deed (which is even more amazing, i mean i dont think i can find a better board sweeper in legacy, if u run green without running black than there is no reason just for one creature, you might as well go to 2 colors, but if u run black without green then u are losing one of the best board sweepers which would make black not needed in the deck, all in all the only color you could cut out would be white, if u run green or black. green and black go together, either u dont play them or u play them both.

[Anarky87]

I've been curious for awhile whether a UBg build could possibly work. The only problem I have is that I love white for Swords and Decree. Swords can be replaced with Ghastly Demise or more board sweepers in general, but Decree is hard to replace. You really need something to beat with besides Factory. I know this past Saturday I played my UWb list to a 6-1 first place win, but there were times I couldn't get a win condition down for the longest time. Conclave seems like a royal shit, but I don't know of anything else that could work.

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

3 Ghastly Demise
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Haunting Echoes (Possible other win condition?)

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
2 Cabal Pit

Just something random I threw together. I'm still liking white more and I've been enjoying my UWb list a lot.

[mikekelley]

Ruins/EE is simply an amazing combo. I have lost track of the number of times i have recurred EE to just bring the board to a halt. It's gamebreaking. It's like a vindicate every turn while you beat with manlands.

[Jak]

That is pretty close to a list I am playing with. I have tried playing with Faerie Conclaves, but they are just not as strong, so I just added one Plains, should be Tundra for Monastery. It turned out really nice. Here is the list.

Lands 23
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Academy Ruins

Draw 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

Counters 12
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle

Sweepers / Creature Control 11
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Ghastly Demise

Goods 4
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Haunting Echoes

SB 15
4 Duress
2 Extirpate
2 Misdirection
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip

I really love this build because it has so many powerful cards. Killing someones deck with Echoes, using the most powerful draw in the format, killing everything. It is just a ton of fun. Thoughts?

[thefreakaccident]

There is no point in running either black or green, or any combination there of.
green gives you 2 cards between MD and side board, black by itself gives you 1 shackey kill condition & subpar creature control solution cards... the only reason that these colors have been considered was because of the possible inclusion of pernicious deed. Which is completely unneeded & pointless.

There is no problem with going up to three colors (or just staying at two), but those colors have to be able to coplement the rest of the deck; instead they are farfetched inclusions that just seem to be streching the manabase & weakening the deck overall.

Personally I run Bel's URW build myself when I play landstill, and I only ever loose to hulk flash & solidarity... if you guys are interested in the build feel free to ask.

[mikekelley]

Yeah, green and black are pointless.

Krosan Grip
Duress
Diabolic Edict
Pernicious Deed
Damnation
Extirpate
Nantuko Monastery

Going for green or black gives a lot of useful tools. Not that white or red doesn't. I personally love white and red. But don't discount black and green.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Is it possible to build a deck that's less able to take advantage of Wasteland's tempo gain than Landstill? I'm constantly perplexed by it's inclusion. When the format was heavy on Mishra's Workshop and Bazaars, it made sense, but now? You're simply weakening your mana base for, what? The only reason to run Wasteland is Crucible, and the only reason to run Crucible is Wasteland, and neither is amazing by itself. Even together they only become good when you should be winning. Why not just shore up your mana base and free the Crucible slot for something to win the game before you go to time?

[Phantom]

Is it possible to build a deck that's less able to take advantage of Wasteland's tempo gain than Landstill? I'm constantly perplexed by it's inclusion. When the format was heavy on Mishra's Workshop and Bazaars, it made sense, but now? You're simply weakening your mana base for, what? The only reason to run Wasteland is Crucible, and the only reason to run Crucible is Wasteland, and neither is amazing by itself. Even together they only become good when you should be winning. Why not just shore up your mana base and free the Crucible slot for something to win the game before you go to time?


I'm actually right there with you on this one. I built a UR Standstill deck as like my second Legacy deck, and despite the thing being janky as hell (the dreaded Disk/Capsize combo) I didn't run Crucible, and never really felt the need to. I mean, are you ever actually going to run out of threats? I guess the recurring blocker is nice, but how often is that relevant? More often than a sweeper or draw spell or threat would be?

And I certainly never wanted wasteland. The card advantage this deck runs is about the best in Legacy. Why do you need a late game mana denial theme?

Anyway, I'm certainly no Landstill expert, so feel free to take the comments with a grain of salt.

[Tacosnape]

I never understood why we ran Wasteland in the first place. I cut it my UWR from Landstill about the time Legacy was invented, and I certainly won't ever run it in UGBW.

I also think I agree with IBA, at least partly, about the point of Crucible needing an inclusion at all. The downfall here is that it means you now need an alternate kill condition, as it makes focusing all their efforts in removing your threats a viable strategy once again.

I currently have cut down to 1 Life from the Loam (Getting two sucked, but merely having one in the deck partly negates the effectiveness of trying to kill all my threats unless I somehow never draw it until the last few cards.) I have no idea what to board in for it, though. If Flash stays it'll be the 4th Stifle, but I'm not sure what beyond that.

I'm tempted to try a single Shackles, as a lot of people seem to be doing well with it. Any thoughts? My main problem with it is that it dies to deed like everything else, though.

[sammiel]

how often do you have to deed for 3 or more when you have a shackles in play? Seems like goblins is the only deck thats gonna play multiple high CC threats, and while goblins is obviously a concern, I would think that saving your shackles until after you've played a board clearer would probably be enough to slow them down, especially if you can counter ringleaders.

[Anarky87]

I think if I were to cut Crucible altogether, I'd cut Manlands as well and just focus the deck into a typical U/W control. There would seem to be no reason running a creature land that, if hit with removal, costs me a land. At least with Crucible, if they nail your attacker, you just replay it the same turn and keep going. Most of their removal outside of StP becomes useless, as does Wasteland.

I haven't been a fan of Wasteland, being that it's symmetrical and in a control deck you don't want to be nuking your own lands for the sake of tempo. What I don't mind is completely locking my opponent out of the game with, say, Cabal Pit. While it may seem like a tactic that is win more, if I don't have a win condition yet, then I'm not in a 'win' situation to begin with. Therefore, Cabal Pit recursion lets me stall out my opponent until I find one and win. Maybe I just like Crucible too much, but I've never felt disgusted at it when I've played with it.

But if you're saying out with Crucible, then I'd fix the mana base and run something like Tron in Extended with Decrees and Exalteds to finish the game.

[Bardo]

how often do you have to deed for 3 or more when you have a shackles in play?

I run Deed alongside Shackles and I don't think it's ever come up that I've blown up my own permanents. I know it sounds odd in the abstract, but I've tested dozens (hundreds?) of games with Landstill and it's never once been a problem--not that I can recall, anyhow.

Re: Wasteland. Hmm. I rather agree. The format has adjusted to Waste-lock and it pretty much never happens, except in the mirror; owing to the speed of the format, and decks adjusting to Goblins (Wasteland/Port). Also, yeah, Landstill is definitely not gaining any tempo boost with Wasteland, since the deck is so glacially slow to win.

Re: Crucible. I find the thing to be a game-winner in many matches. Let's just ignore Wasteland for the moment (though Crucible is the most important card in the mirror, for what that might be worth), but it's golden in regrowing manlands, Maze, spent fetchlands, etc.

My current list:

"Vorosh Control"
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
2 Massacre
1 Chalice of the Void

While there seems to be a lot of anti-synergy going on here (anti-ergy?), I was focusing on maximizing the number of powerful cards the deck was running and adopted a "screw synergy" approach that has paid off.

IBA has also mentioned running Haunting Echoes and Grave-Shell Scarab which I plan to eventually test.

You can see a lot of my notes on this version of Landstill on my TMD blog (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32964.0) (posts #19 - 23).

Edit - Cabal Pit is a cool idea; I hadn't though of it. I would suggest testing Tabernacle and/or Maze of Ith, to see if that works better. Tabernacle is such a freaking ball-breaker in this deck.

[mikekelley]

Tabernacle is amazing. Alongside maze of ith, you any aggro player's nuts in a vise. Do you find that tolaria west is good at doing what it does - namely, functioning as an extra tutor for explosives, maze, chalice and tabernacle? The fact that it is a sorcrey kind of bothers me, and I don't think I'd use it to search up a chalice as you usually want a chalice to come down before turn 4-5.

[Bardo]

Tabernacle is amazing. Alongside maze of ith, you any aggro player's nuts in a vise. Do you find that tolaria west is good at doing what it does - namely, functioning as an extra tutor for explosives, maze, chalice and tabernacle? The fact that it is a sorcrey kind of bothers me, and I don't think I'd use it to search up a chalice as you usually want a chalice to come down before turn 4-5.

Re: Tolaria West. It seems so freakishly awesome, sorta. I've used it a few times (mainly for Tabernacle, EE [once], Wasteland [once] and Maze [once]). Conditional, three-mana sorcery-speed tutors are kinda crap, but I like that it works under Standstill. In the worst case, it's just a really bad Island.

In short, I intend to keep testing it and will see if it needs to go; but I've been really pleased with it so far and haven't felt the need to pull the plug on it. It's here to stay for the time being.

The fact that Chalice or EE will come down no earlier than turns 4-5 with it hasn't been a problem that I can't live with; since it's so good when it does come down--esp. if you can recur EE with Ruins, or if Chalice will just win the game for you (@1 vs. Thresh; @2 vs. Fish, B/W, etc.)

[MattH]

If anyone really doesn't want to give up the Crucible/Waste plan, you could always stick it in the board.

[mikekelley]

I'm fine with dropping waste, but I'd like to keep crucible in, for reasons mentioned above. If my factories or mazes get blown up, i'm in the shitter and need a way to recur them.

[sammiel]

crucible/manland is what makes the archetype. How the hell are you going to abuse standstill without land-based win conditions? The answer is that you aren't, so you're going to replace standstill with something else, and then you aren't playing any of the cards that make the archetype what it is.

[thefreakaccident]

what's with all this talk about dropping crucible?

obviously someone has overlooked the card's effect!

basically you have recurrable threats/lock peices/mana producents.

crucibe allows you to thin your deck out, have infi chump blockers, and sometimes take advantage of weak mana bases (thresh, fish, and others).

and what is with the talk of all the utility lands going around (tabernacle & maze of ith).. we have board sweepers, and without crucible those cards would be far from optimal anyways.

I say keep crucible and don't add such rediculous lands to the deck... that's just me though; you guys can go ahead and weaken your builds all you want.

[Tacosnape]

Tabernacle is amazing. Alongside maze of ith, you any aggro player's nuts in a vise. Do you find that tolaria west is good at doing what it does - namely, functioning as an extra tutor for explosives, maze, chalice and tabernacle? The fact that it is a sorcrey kind of bothers me, and I don't think I'd use it to search up a chalice as you usually want a chalice to come down before turn 4-5.

So you're running Tabernacle, a bad non-mana producing land that's competing with several colored lands and your win conditions in order to play a card that you can't back up effectively with any sort of mana denial? Seems like a pretty stupid idea to me.

Maze of Ith is a worse idea. The whole point of running Maze is this: It keeps people from swinging in with single creatures and forces them to drop multiple creatures that you can then sweep. Why is this a bad idea? Because Mishra's Factory does the same exact fucking thing. And it's a kill condition! I'll pick Mishra's Factory.

And why exactly would you want to tutor for any of those cards you listed, outside of maybe Engineered Explosives if you aren't running Black-Green? They're all awful.

Landstill has no business running lands that don't A. Produce Blue Mana, or B. Kill people.


I'm fine with dropping waste, but I'd like to keep crucible in, for reasons mentioned above. If my factories or mazes get blown up, i'm in the shitter and need a way to recur them.

Here you make a very solid point. This is why I keep a single Loam in my deck. Inevitability. You can blow up my threats all you want, I'll Loam them back. And it's harder to blow up my Loam than it is to blow up my Crucible.


crucible/manland is what makes the archetype. How the hell are you going to abuse standstill without land-based win conditions?

Partly right, Partly wrong.

Manlands are what make the archetype. Not Crucible/Manland. The theory is that if you drop a Standstill on a clear board and you run more manlands in your deck than your opponent does, they have to break the Standstill in order to win.

Crucible doesn't give you any sort of edge in this battle, even in the mirror, just by being in your deck. It has to be in play. The manlands give you this edge just by being in your deck. All Crucible does for your Standstills is provide a relatively ineffective tool to allow your graveyard to count as your library in this edge.

[mikekelley]

So you're running Tabernacle, a bad non-mana producing land that's competing with several colored lands and your win conditions in order to play a card that you can't back up effectively with any sort of mana denial? Seems like a pretty stupid idea to me.

Maze of Ith is a worse idea. The whole point of running Maze is this: It keeps people from swinging in with single creatures and forces them to drop multiple creatures that you can then sweep. Why is this a bad idea? Because Mishra's Factory does the same exact fucking thing. And it's a kill condition! I'll pick Mishra's Factory.

And why exactly would you want to tutor for any of those cards you listed, outside of maybe Engineered Explosives if you aren't running Black-Green? They're all awful.

Landstill has no business running lands that don't A. Produce Blue Mana, or B. Kill people.



A. I haven't run tabernacle in Landstill yet. I was commenting on it in general.
B. I am thinking of running maze of ith. If we are dropping 3-4 wastelands, I'd like to test cards to put there in it's stead.
C. I am not running Tolaria, just asking how it works. I personally won't run it for the fact that I'd rather not tap out on my turn to cast a sorcery which is iffy
D. I am running (currently) U/g/b.

[Jak]

I agree with freakaccident. Crucible does a lot for the deck in getting lands, recurring blockers, and wastelock is sometimes important. I would consider cutting wasteland for more colored sources though.

[Tacosnape]

A. I haven't run tabernacle in Landstill yet. I was commenting on it in general.
B. I am thinking of running maze of ith. If we are dropping 3-4 wastelands, I'd like to test cards to put there in it's stead.
C. I am not running Tolaria, just asking how it works. I personally won't run it for the fact that I'd rather not tap out on my turn to cast a sorcery which is iffy
D. I am running (currently) U/g/b.

A. Don't start.
B. The entire point of us cutting Wasteland is so we can run more Duals/Fetches/Basics to shore up inconsistent manabase problems.
C. Very good call.


I agree with freakaccident. Crucible does a lot for the deck in getting lands, recurring blockers, and wastelock is sometimes important. I would consider cutting wasteland for more colored sources though.

I pretty much agree with this. Landstill needs some kind of plan if all of its lands get blown up, whether it's recursion or some sort of alternate kill like Decree of Justice, though with Empty The Warrens seeing a lot more play lately I can't fathom DoJ being a great idea. I still prefer Loam here in green builds, especially if we're not trying to abuse Wasteland with Crucible and solidifying our color structure. To me, Wastelock was the only good argument to run Crucible over Loam.

To illustrate the Loam point, my current maindeck is as follows:

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monestary

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime // Punishment
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Life From The Loam

The deck is very balanced. The single Loam gives me the inevitability I need to come back from having all my manlands destroyed, and the Crime // Punishment not only acts as a board sweeper but also can steal my opponent's kill conditions, sometimes in ways that win you games you couldn't win otherwise (Such as casting Crime on a Genesis.)

My manabase runs manlands and color producers and that's it. It's incredibly consistent.

I have 12 creature removal spells. I have 12 true card advantage generators. I have 12 hard counters. I have 17 ways to hit blue mana and 9 to hit each of the other colors, not counting Brainstorm and Standstill for digging. With my sideboard, I'm prepared for almost every situation any metagame can throw at me. I do fluctuate a lot between the 4th Stifle and the 4th Edict, as well as between the 4th Tropical and a 3rd Delta, and a lot depends on my metagame.

Recently one of my team members piloted this deck in a Flash-legal tournament where I was piloting Goblins (stupidly, I might add.) During that tournament, he went 4-1 counting the top 4. He started out 3-0 beating Threshold, Kiki-Flash, and me with Goblins. Then he lost horribly to Paint It Black piloted by another of our teammates, only to beat it in an immediate rematch in the top 4. He then traded the win for the prize and some other cards to the Kiki-Flash he'd just trounced earlier.

The point is, the deck's incredibly versatile and fears very few matchups.

[Amon Amarth]

I have been playing the list Anti-american has been using back on page 4. I've noticed a few things.

Counter/Top is freakin awesome. Even without Top the card randomly counters things. Together, your opponent never resolves another spell. Top + Fetches is really good too.

Wasteland is really crappy. I never considered playing it. Wasteland doesn't beatdown or produce Blue. It sucks in Landstill.

Crucible has been really good as it allows you to hit your land drops every turn which has been important in activating multiple manlands a turn. It recurs your kill conditions. It protects you from manascrew. I love it.

One thing I've noticed is that I never have anything to do with my Wishes. I've never needed 2+ Enchantment killers. I dropped the Ray of Revelation for Pulse of the Fields. Most of the games I have lost were because of random burn topdecks or just one unanswered guy. Pulse of the Fields would have saved me many times.

[ReAnimated]

Hey Anarky , im likeing your list for UWb Landstill ALOT ( Havent lost a game yet), but im wondering if u have upadted the list at all and what are u gonna change with the sidebaord after the banning of flash(hopefully)?

[Anarky87]

Hey Anarky , im likeing your list for UWb Landstill ALOT ( Havent lost a game yet), but im wondering if u have upadted the list at all and what are u gonna change with the sidebaord after the banning of flash(hopefully)?

I'm glad you like it and its been working out fantastically. I haven't made any dramatic changes to the deck. The only change I've made is -1 Sea for +1 Scrubland. Sometimes when I was fetching I'd want W for StP/Wrath/Something, but also need B for my Pit, and so a Scrub took a Seas place.

As for the SB, I'm not quite sure at the moment. I don't think all the combo hate in there will be needed, but I'd like to keep some. I was talking with a few other people in my area and I'd like to fit 2-3 Extirpates in the SB for the mirror. So essentially

-Current SB-
4 Leyline
4 Plague
4 Mage
3 Duress

-Post Flash Banning SB-
4 Leyline
4 Mage
4 Plague
3 Extirpate

Leyline just seems pretty powerful against a lot like Iggy-Pop, Thresh (but you should beat them anyway), LftL style decks, any GY based stuff really. I don't know, I'll probably tinker around with it a lot, but I feel the MD is pretty solid right now. Thanks for the interest and I'm glad you like my build.

Edit: Also, back on my original list, I have 3 Islands in the deck, not 2. I apparently missed one when I was copying the list.

[ReAnimated]

Ah i see i jus added another Sea I made a few changes

In
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Somethign else cant figure out ( its Late )

Out
1x Vindicate
1x Disenchant ( Seemed random as a 1-Of )

And is Leyline really nescessary because the decks u side it in against are already good matchups ( Idk about loam ) but i really dont think its worth a Sb slot , please correct me if im wrong. I'd pefer some more creature kill because it helps ur worst matchups, fast aggro.

P.s Cabal Pit is Hawt ; - D

[Anarky87]

Ah i see i jus added another Sea I made a few changes

In
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Somethign else cant figure out ( its Late )

Out
1x Vindicate
1x Disenchant ( Seemed random as a 1-Of )

And is Leyline really nescessary because the decks u side it in against are already good matchups ( Idk about loam ) but i really dont think its worth a Sb slot , please correct me if im wrong. I'd pefer some more creature kill because it helps ur worst matchups, fast aggro.

P.s Cabal Pit is Hawt ; - D

Yeah, I'm sure Disenchant will become something else eventually, as of yet I don't know what, and so I like having it. Leyline might be overkill, but so far I've liked having it in my SB. Without Flash, it may not be necessary, but if people are going to start trying to break Replenish, I might want it to stay. I haven't had too much trouble with other fast aggro decks. Being as the area I live in is pretty janky, I see a lot of mindless aggro decks besides Goblins and I've yet to experience problems. But the SB is very customizeable, so try out what solves your problems the best and roll with it. :wink:

[ReAnimated]

I geuss ,what do you think is good for a field of ***** / Combo (Ichcord, Iggy,Solidarity) and the mirrors. I think E.Plauge is good enough to take care of goblins as long as u can keep thier relavent stuff off the board.

*Warning* This comment maybe very noobish but i will continue to post it *Warning*

What do u think of 1 or 2 Nomad Stadiums? I've liked em in loam due to random life gain agianst the randomness jank decks and life is always good:cool:

[Anarky87]

In a meta like that, I would definitely keep my proposed SB. Leyline would handle Thresh (Overkill, yes, but unless they want a reasonbale clock that doesn't get hosed by a factory or 1/1 token, they'll Naturalize/Grip it, taking fire off of your Crucible), Iggy (Shutting off IGG), Mage for Solidarity and the control to protect it, and Extirpate for the mirror. I knew a guy who used to play a deck similar about a year or so back and ran a couple Haunting Echoes in his SB for the mirror/Thresh/control decks at the time.

I like Nomad Stadium in Lands, but I think there are better options for Landstill. And if you need the life, you can always run Pulse of the Fields in your SB. It makes for less hassle.

[diffy]

Hey, I just wanted to pop into this discussion as I have a few points... Some of you may have noticed my presence in the old [DTB]UW Landstill thread where I tried to continue development of DeRosa's and Lieberman's Enlightened Tutor Landstill with some degree of sucess (my builds have been taken up here in Germany, developed and taken to top8 numerous times) but those times are gone and I was mostly only developing/playing other decks (decks accepted as "good", not like Landstill) until I saw a new uprising in Aggro (to handle the Fish flood) and Fishesque decks (to handle the original combo flood) in our Meta as well as meeting Marius Hausman, a quite sucessfull Bavarian Landstill player. Since then I have picked up this archetype again, mostly to develop it together with Hausman, but I am reconsidering to actually take it to our monthly tournament again...
Enough of introduction, let's come to above mentioned points:

I think you people are really understimating Uwr Landstill... If built correctly it has access to most of the tools to beat about anything... while maintaining a fairly solid mana base. Deed is replaced by Humility and Pyroclasm effects (making your goblin matchup better) and paired with more spot removal (burn) to control the board while the possible duress/negators in the sideboard to fight of combo can be replaced by Red Elemental Blasts and Jotun Grunts.
The following list is what I test at the moment, still pretty rough but it has some ideas, I think:

Uwr Humility Landstill by Clemens Wolff
//Maindeck (60)
/Lands (24)
2 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland

/Creature Control (14)
2 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
2 Fire/Ice
2 Pyroclasm
1 Rough/Tumble

/Draw (11)
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm

/Permission (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

/Random Stuff (2)
2 Crucible of Worlds

/Win Condition (1)
1 Decree of Justice

//Sideboard (15)
1 Pyroclasm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Chalice of the Void (mostly against Loam based decks)
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
2 Red Elemental Blast / Stifle (still testing and undecided as stifle is more multifunctional by messing up the opponent's math with grunt and by stopping goblin's mana denial+card advantage plan as well as being some good against combo stoping storm triggers)

The deck's goal is to stall in the earlygame through pyroclasm and spot removal and then to drop down a Humility or a Crucible take ultimate control of the game. It can happen that one drops pretty low on life while trying to take conrol of the board, but then Helix (which came in to replace Lighting Bolts) comes in, kills a guy and gives you a nice life boost.

The mainboard Humilities are nothing short of amazing turning all your pyroclasm effects into 2 mana Wraths in addition to making your manlands dominating the field and stoping oposing cip shenanigans (goblins arn't all that amazing without Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs).

The sideboard is mostly combo hate (Jotun Grunt is amazing here being a 5 turn clock and a must bounce against solidarity [just set a mage to Cunning Wish and drop down a grunt with enough cards in the yard to win]) and stuff to make the goblins matchup better.

Something I still would like to fit in here is maybe a singletone mainboard Academy Ruins accompanied by one or more Engineered Explosives but I can't really figure out what to cut... cutting spot removal might not be that great seeing that Explosives are rather slowish)

Here another list which took 5th place out of 19 at our local tournament here in Germany and was my orignial source of inspiration [together with me wanting to take away the weaknesses of Wr Rifter by splashing another color](I 2-0'd him with Uwb Hanni Fish in the last round but was pretty lucky to get enough beats and disruption):

Uwr Landstill by Marius Laber
//Maindeck (60)
/Lands (24)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

/Creature Control (11)
4 Swords to Plowshaeres
4 Lightning Helix
3 Pyroclasm

/Draw (10)
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction

/Permission (8)
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

/Random Stuff (2)
2 Crucible of Worlds

/Win Conditions (5)
1 Exalted Angel
2 Rakavolver
2 Decree of Justice

//Sideboard (15)
3 Disenchant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Wrath of God

Last but not least I wanted to share the list Marius Hausmann (the guy winning and top8ing at all 3 BazaarofWonders League tournaments winning a Mox Emerald amongst others, see 1st page for link to the tournament) is working on at the moment...
It's straight UW Landstill...
Allthough countless people seem to have completely dismissed this archetype in the States (and may even have stoped reading at above line), I think that his sucess (and the general sucess of UW Landstill in an European metagame which is strongly influenced by TmD and TS and therefore the American metagame [and therefore not not backwards like some people may think!]) should at least make people reconsider the possibility of just going down again to 2 colors.

Classic Landstill by Marius Hausmann
//Maindeck (60)
/Lands (23)
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

/Creature Control (10)
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshaeres

/Draw (8)
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

/Permission (8)
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

/Random Stuff (7)
3 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Pulse of the Fields

/Win Condition (4)
2 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice

//Sideboard (15)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Blue Elemental Blast

If you think to see some similarities between Hausman's and my list, you are probably right because I am amongst the people developing the deck with him and therefore some of the ideas in my decklist are also adapted to his.
Even if I strongly disagree with some of his choices (no facts, disk included etc. for example) my argument's can't really persuade him (I must live with that) but again he has just been tremdeously sucessfull with this and other builds so there really must be something everyone missed about Classic Landstill being viable.

So long from Germany...

[ReAnimated]

So I've been tinkering with the UWb version ( Original by Anarky ) and i made a few minor changes , I'll just post my list

Land
4x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Cabal Pit
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Academy Ruins

Counters
4x Force of will
4x Counterspell
3x Stifle

Draw
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
3x Fact or Fiction

Control
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
2x Engineered Explosives

Win Cons
2x Decree of Justice
2x Haunting Echoes

Other
2x Crucible of Worlds


Side board
4x Enginereed Plauge
4x Blue Elemental Blast
4x Meddling Mage
3x Tormod's Cyrpt

So basically my list is like Anarkays back on pg 3 or 4 with 2 Haunting Echoes and took out the lone disenchant and a wrath. Tell me what you guys think and if there are any questions on my card picks feel free to ask.

P.s My most iffy choice is the Crucible idk if they still deserve a slot becuase since I don't run wasteland I think its just sub-par. Toughts are welcome.

[mikekelley]

You need them for the factories. In my opinion, I would not take them out.

[Anarky87]

You need them for the factories. In my opinion, I would not take them out.

Yeah, I second that. Even without Wasteland, recurring manlands/Cabal Pits/Academy Ruins/Fetchlands are amazing. The fact that recurring your Factories essentially makes their removal outside of StP crap is some good. And continual Cabal Pits pretty much destroys fish and other weenie strategy decks. I don't know how many times people playing fish have told me when I get Crucible+Pit that they essentially can't win. I love Crucible in the deck.

The only thing I might change about your list is to take out 1 Haunting Echoes for the 3rd Wrath. With as much draw and dig as this deck has, you should be able to come across it fairly easily. And with it costing 5, it's not something I'd possibly want 2 of in my hand. Without Flash, it seems things will switch back to the way they were, with Goblins and Thresh/Fish and some combo which means Wrath should be decent against the field I believe. But if its worked for you, by all means go for it. I like the idea of switching the 1 Disenchant to a Haunting Echoes though. That sounds good.

[thefreakaccident]

So.. I just checked my messages and I have seen that many of you guys are interested in the list that I have been running... I will unveil it, but I am pretty sure you guys could imply as to what and why... so just the list!

lands// 25
4 tundra
4 volcanic island
4 flooded strand
3 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
3 faerie conclave
1 plains
2 island

spells// 35
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 crucible of worlds
3 stifle
3 fact or fiction
3 fire/ice
3 swords to plowshares
3 lightning bolt
2 cunning wish

sideboard//
4 meddling mage
3 engineered explosives
3 tormad's crypt
1 swords to plowshares
1 misdirection
1 starstorm
1 trickbind
1 dismantling blow



This usually works out quite well for me, the only 1 deck that is legal that it consistantly looses to is solidarity... I Never loose a mtach with this deck.

I have considered 1 side board card in the Side board for solidarity, I was thinking about mana breach as an out to solidarity... what do you guys think about that?

[Cait_Sith]

You have plenty of good spot removal, but it looks like your lack of sweepers could be painful. If a turn 1 lackey connects you could find yourself quickly overrun game 1, although the game 2 inclusion of EExplosives should help.

Why on EARTH do you have Mystical Tutor as a cunning wish target for your 1 of 2 Cunning Wishes? It seems silly. I would put another Fire//Ice or FoF in there (or even a Dismantling Blow). Cunning Wish should really be used in Landstill as a weapon to find Solutions to anything that slips through your removal and counters (like the occasional nasty Ghostly Prison, Trinisphere, some large shroud dude, et cetera).

[mikekelley]

I don't think a 1-of misdirection is that great of an idea. It's a three-for one for the opponent, and I'd gladly take three blue cards out of my opponent's hand so he can misdirect my lightning bolt.

Unless i'm going to lose the game and I need a MisD to save my ass when I have three untapped U and an extra pitch spell in my hand - But that will probably happen rarely to never.

[Tacosnape]

I don't think a 1-of misdirection is that great of an idea. It's a three-for one for the opponent, and I'd gladly take three blue cards out of my opponent's hand so he can misdirect my lightning bolt.

Unless i'm going to lose the game and I need a MisD to save my ass when I have three untapped U and an extra pitch spell in my hand - But that will probably happen rarely to never.

Your math is wrong. Cunning Wish into Misdirection takes 2 cards. The Misdirection replaces the Cunning Wish, therefore you didn't spend the card to cast Cunning Wish.

It's also worth noting that if your opponent causes himself to lose a permanent or discard a card, you break even off Misdirection.

[mikekelley]

It takes three cards. I know what you are saying, you really only net -2, but it takes three cards.

[thefreakaccident]

You have plenty of good spot removal, but it looks like your lack of sweepers could be painful. If a turn 1 lackey connects you could find yourself quickly overrun game 1, although the game 2 inclusion of EExplosives should help.

Why on EARTH do you have Mystical Tutor as a cunning wish target for your 1 of 2 Cunning Wishes? It seems silly. I would put another Fire//Ice or FoF in there (or even a Dismantling Blow). Cunning Wish should really be used in Landstill as a weapon to find Solutions to anything that slips through your removal and counters (like the occasional nasty Ghostly Prison, Trinisphere, some large shroud dude, et cetera).

the mystical tutor was a typo... I was and am half asleep, taking finals; now I am done, tired, and posting replies!

it is swords in that spot, it serves to be extra spot removal if needed.

lackey has only connected against this deck 2 times in many games, I have 14 answers on the play and 10 answers on the draw (these excluding mishra blocks, because of their nifty cards wasteland and port).

I do run a board sweeper in the wish board, but usually it is unrequired to wich for (except when goblins over commits board, which is their only way to win)... I have ran board sweepers in the MD before, but they seem rediculous and redundant sometimes... (just burned their guys then draw a clasm).

I know they can be nifty, but they are usually either
a.) to slow, like vengence or disk.

b.) ineffective against some other decks, like clasm against the mirror.
that's why I run the SB sweepers.

@ the other dude: misdirection is meant to save my ass if something has gone terribly wrong somewhere, you can make them burn themselves/their own creatures... they can swords their own dude, or they can deep annalysis you on turn 4 of turns FTW!!! (yes folks this did happen once in tournament play)... I also make people hymm themselves.

misdirection serves as the ninth counterspell for the most part, could be something else but I have yet to find a replacement that is 'better'.

Although I have considered running manaleak or something of the sort, but those situational counterspells can suck really bad sometimes.

[Tacosnape]

I do run a board sweeper in the wish board, but usually it is unrequired to wich for (except when goblins over commits board, which is their only way to win)... I have ran board sweepers in the MD before, but they seem rediculous and redundant sometimes... (just burned their guys then draw a clasm).


Apparently your definition of Goblins involves Goblin Shrine, Goblin Caves, Mons Goblin Raiders, Goblin Balloon Brigade, and those starter Goblin Heroes with the gold star. And even then I'm not convinced your build has a favorable Goblin match.

Seriously, though? You have a delicious manabase, an inability to easily answer Aether Vial, and nothing but spot removal. Goblins rolls the living hell out of that build.

[sammiel]

why aren't more people running academy ruins? It's not super great or anything, but it adds to the inevitability of the mid/late game of the deck without really taking anything away from the early.

It's good with disk, crypt, getting back lost crucibles, possibly engineered explosives, and on the clunky end, can be used on slavers and jester's caps. It sure isn't gamebreaking, but I've really been happy testing it as a one of along with a single tolaria west in U/W and U/W/G landstill.

[URABAHN]

The following is ripped from another thread


No skilled Landstill player has yet, to my knowledge, attempted to pilot 4C Landstill without Wasteland, the correct build, at a major tournament. 4C Landstill sans Wasteland, with either 12 Duals and 5 Fetches, 11 and 6, or 12 and 6 with only 2 Monestaries is the superior build. I would be quite confident taking a mana-improved 4C Landstill into a decent-sized tournament.

I think Taco is on to something, IBA, overlord95 and I have been wondering for awhile why Landstill was running Wasteland. We all realize Waste-lock can be devastating for some decks, but by that time it seems you've won already. How can a Control deck take full advantage of the tempo gained by Wasteland? Taco, do you have a list you can share with us?

[Anarky87]

The following is ripped from another thread



I think Taco is on to something, IBA, overlord95 and I have been wondering for awhile why Landstill was running Wasteland. We all realize Waste-lock can be devastating for some decks, but by that time it seems you've won already. How can a Control deck take full advantage of the tempo gained by Wasteland? Taco, do you have a list you can share with us?

I'm not quite sure. I've cut Wasteland from my UWb list for awhile now and I don't believe I'd go back. I don't know how you could gain tempo off of a Wasteland and then follow it up with a threat. Like playing Red Death, I could turn 3 Sinkhole+Wasteland them, then follow that up next turn with a Shade or Negator. I don't know if Landstill can have those kinds of plays.

Wasteland, to me, has always seemed to either be symmetrical, or superfluous. You drop a Wasteland, blow up their land and pass the turn, nothing really gained, or, you were already controlling the board and are now wastelocking them out of colors instead of actually winning the game. I don't think Taco's list runs Wasteland and instead opts for the straight 11-12 Duals.

[thefreakaccident]

Apparently your definition of Goblins involves Goblin Shrine, Goblin Caves, Mons Goblin Raiders, Goblin Balloon Brigade, and those starter Goblin Heroes with the gold star. And even then I'm not convinced your build has a favorable Goblin match.

Seriously, though? You have a delicious manabase, an inability to easily answer Aether Vial, and nothing but spot removal. Goblins rolls the living hell out of that build.


my mana base is fine, ufortunitely I have not played against or seen those card ever in competative play though (this would make me very happy on the inside though). I do have a sweeper in the wish board... ususally game 1 they hit my white so as to cut off the nonexistant WoG. Vial either gets countered or dism. blowed... games two and three I have several boards sweepers and answers to many things they can do... usfortunitely the deck looks like this as of right now to deal with the meta shift that had occured recently (lots of control/aggro control/combo)... that said If the meta reshifts again, I would probably just go with the wishless version that Belgorath runs with disk...

although disk has been a little bit too slow in the current environment.

I am interested to know how the dropping of wastland would affect the deck.. I will add 1 more fetch and some other color producents in their place.

Maybe after I test I wil be conclusive!

[Tacosnape]

I think Taco is on to something, IBA, overlord95 and I have been wondering for awhile why Landstill was running Wasteland. We all realize Waste-lock can be devastating for some decks, but by that time it seems you've won already. How can a Control deck take full advantage of the tempo gained by Wasteland? Taco, do you have a list you can share with us?

I think even a better point than the tempo boost from wasteland is one I made at some point a good while back: Any match you need Wasteland for is already either highly favored or highly unfavored, and Wasteland doesn't change this at all except for making you have to mulligan more.

I feel much the same way about Tolaria West, Academy Ruins, and every land ever printed that doesn't either improve my color base or kill the opponent. That's all your land in 4C Landstill needs to do. The deck is so insanely strong when its mana is correct that you don't need it to do much else.

Here's my current list as of today:

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Life From The Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime // Punishment
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Blue Elemental Blast

I didn't feel, after a lot of games, that my manabase was as strong with 12 Duals and 5 fetches as it is with 11 and 6. I originally went to the 12/5 due to Flash being in the metagame and everybody suddenly running maindeck Stifle. The deck is certainly runnable with 12 and 5, though.

The deck has a balanced 12 Card Advantage generators, 12 dedicated threat removers, and 11 hard counters. The 4th Stifle was too much, but could be run in a fairly combo-heavy meta. The 4th Edict is what would become that 4th Stifle. Tried Vedalken Shackles in the slot and hated it.

Life From The Loam >> Crucible when there aren't any Wastelands. Originally my 4th Edict was a second Loam, but multiple Loams proved to be unnecessary. Loam is an insurance card against manland removal and land destruction, and drawing it early isn't all bad. It has great synergy with Brainstorm, both with being able to dredge off the top of your library to remove bad cards, speed up Monestary Threshold, dig for your kill conditions, and hide the Loam with the Brainstorm in matches where you won't need it. You aren't a Loam deck and you won't cast it but once or twice a game, but it's an insurance card that allows you to never spend any resources defending your manlands. Granted, on rare occasion you won't hit it when you need it running only one, but I personally found I hit it more when I didn't need it running 2 than I'm stuck looking for it with only one.

This manabase is solid enough to support Loam. It's rarely used to fix your manabase, but it can be used for just that in a pinch if you get a hand with say, Sea, Delta, Factory, Loam. Also, the fact that it costs a mere 2 instead of 3 helps protect you against Land Destruction and Discard strategies. In a metagame with a lot of Sui-Black variants, I'd be tempted to go back to double Loams.

The other card I feel I need to explain is Leyline of the Void. This was originally Orim's Chant, but I changed it. Yes, I know Flash is gone, and yes, I'm still running it. The reason for this is that Leyline suddenly shifts a couple of unfavored matches to being pretty darn good: Loam Control and Iggy Pop. 4C Landstill can't beat Loam Control game 1 unless you aggressively counter Burning Wish and Gamble and keep them from ever hitting a Loam, which is very difficult to do. Game 2 and 3, starting with a Leyline and a Force in hand is usually game. Seriously. It's that easy. Plus, if you don't hit the Leyline, it's not that hard to hardcast one should you pick it up at some point, and against a recurring Loam deck, you can actually get away with this from time to time and still have it make enough of a difference to win. Meddling Mage helps here too, as does Blue Elemental Blast against Devastating Dreams builds.

[thefreakaccident]

so.. I tested all night last night and came to the conclusion, you guys are right... the dropping of wasteland has improoved consistancy greatly, I will miss my wastes; but since they actually hurt the deck overall I will have to say good bye!

I see that some of you guys have been using cabal pit for creature control, do you think that ed splash could use barbarian ring for the same thing?


you should also have 4 of trop if anything in your manabase, seeing as green is the most important color in the deck (monistary + deed).

if so.. what would your new mana base look like to incorperate the ring and decorperate the waste, in a URW build?

thanx in advance!

[Anarky87]

so.. I tested all night last night and came to the conclusion, you guys are right... the dropping of wasteland has improoved consistancy greatly, I will miss my wastes; but since they actually hurt the deck overall I will have to say good bye!

I see that some of you guys have been using cabal pit for creature control, do you think that ed splash could use barbarian ring for the same thing?


you should also have 4 of trop if anything in your manabase, seeing as green is the most important color in the deck (monistary + deed).

if so.. what would your new mana base look like to incorperate the ring and decorperate the waste, in a URW build?

thanx in advance!

Taking my UWb list for instance and switching it to UWr, I'd change the mana base to:

3 Island
1 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Academy Ruins

Crucible would then let Barbarian Ring not only be another source of creature removal, but also a win condition, pinging for 2 every turn when needed.

[Illissius]

I think the original rationale for Wasteland was to make your Standstills stronger by killing opposing manlands and Ports. A bad reason, but *shrug*, there it is.

[Tacosnape]

you should also have 4 of trop if anything in your manabase, seeing as green is the most important color in the deck (monistary + deed).

No, you shouldn't. I am absolutely positive in 4-Color, Tropical's the right one to cut. This is because you don't need Green in your first few turns to survive. You need Blue by turn one always, White by turn one sometimes, and very often Black by turn two, but you don't need green until turn 3 at the absolute earliest, and by then you've probably either Brainstormed or had a Standstill cracked. I've even had difficult games where I've stalled without green until I had time to Fact or Fiction on a clear board, sometimes as late as turn 6 or 7, in order to get my green source.


I think the original rationale for Wasteland was to make your Standstills stronger by killing opposing manlands and Ports. A bad reason, but *shrug*, there it is.

I completely agree. Both that it was the original rationale and that it was a bad reason. It was after playing about 30 games in a week against Goblins that I quickly realized the Wastelands killing off Rishadan Port was negated by the fact that I could never get the right colors quick enough to live.

I get around Rishadan Port by boarding in Meddling Mage. Every Goblin deck I face seems to board out Incinerator and Pyrokinesis for Plague Hate, therefore not only does Mage dodge Port, it can often save your Plagues in the process. This is harder against builds that run like, both Krosan Grip -and- Tranquil Domain, or both Disenchant -and- Leave No Trace. I generally just name Grip or Disenchant if I have a Plague and go from there.

[Adan]

Ok, now I want to discuss about UR Landstill because I still think it's a potential Controldeck in Legacy.

In this thread: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=137624&posted=1#post137624)

there are 6 criterias for a controldeck to fullfill.

Because I played UR Landstill for about...6 or 7 months (now playing Threshold because I got annoyed), I saw that UR landstill could match those criterias the most.

So, first, my build:

// Lands
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
3 [TSP] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Spells
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [GP] Repeal
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSP] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void


And I won't stop playing Academy Ruins, cause it made me famous xD
(I was mentioned in this article because of Academy Ruins...cool):

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13901.html

But that build in the article is a littlebit old, that was in karlsruhe. I went 3-1-1 ( I.D. with Harry, UW Landstill and then a Boros Deck smashed my face)

Ok, back to topic.

I'll copy-paste the criterias from that guy:


Here's what a control deck has to realistically be able to stop in Legacy:

1. Goblins, specifically Goblin Lackey on turn 1, Goblin Ringleader anytime, and AEther Vial

2. Goblin Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens as soon as turn 1

3. Ill-Gotten Gains fueling either a Mind Twist with Leyline of the Void or a straight Tendrils of Agony win

4. High Tide's degenerate mana engine and superior library manipulation

5. Threshold's cheap offensive options and minimal countermagic - classic Fish strategy

6. Any deck that attempts to establish superior card advantage (both Survival of the Fittest and Life from the Loam try to do this) to be able to exhaust the answers of the opponent

That's not even the totality of it, but that's what you're liable to face on a given day. Building a deck that can reliably do all six has proven quite difficult.

So, let's see what we can do at several points:

There are nearly always 2 kinds of solutions: ones that are effective and the other not that effective/efficient. I'll just call tehm "effective" when they certainly handle the problem and "ineffective" if they are slow or doesn't handle the problem directly.

[B]Point 1: handling a 1st turn Lackey or Aether Vial

Our solutions for a 1st Turn Lackey:

Effective: 3 Shoal, 4 FoW, 4 Lightning Bolt
Ineffective: 2 Repeal, 3 Stifle, 2 Engineered Explosives, 4 Fire/Ice

Our solutions to a Aether Vial:

effective: 7 free counters
Ineffective: 2 Repeal, 3 Stifle, 2 Engineered Explosives, 3 Nevin's Disk

I think there are a lot of solutions.

Point 2: Beating Belcher

Nothing is easiert than that. you got 7 free counters to prevent him from going off/resolving a belcher. You got EEs and Stfile to handle ETW.
And, depending on the Sideboard, you got Needles and Chalice.

Blah, Belcher is nearly a auto-win.

Point 3: Beating IGG

I would puke if i were the IGGy Pop player. I got 7 free counters which I can recurr during a IGG and a lot of burn, which makes him completley dependant on Ley-Line.
Ah, and I got Stifle and Chalice set on 1 postboard to prevent being Chanted.
Xantids just get burned.

The matchup against TES seems to be similar, since you also got solutions against ETW.

Point 4: Hightide

The most difficult combomatchup, but I think it's good, since we still got the 7 free hardcounters, Stifle and we can just RACE him, throwing all burn to his head.
And after the board we got Chalice and REBs as hosers.
REBs are good as a backup then Chalice gets Wiped Away.
Ah, and you can stall with Standstill.

Point 5: Threshold

Well, you have a mass of cardadvantage and quick solutions like Engineered Explosives. And Nevin's Disk. Ah, and you can recurr Nevin's Disk with Academy Ruins. +giggle+
After sideboarding, you also got T.Crypt and REBs (dunno if Chalcie are necessary, but they are funny since they shut down almost 20 cards, especially NIMBLE MONGOOSE).

Nimble Mongoose is the only creature I'm really afraid of. Ah, and Troll Ascetic, but no one plays him.

The Hannifishmatchup is even easier, just watch that you burn Mother of Runes and Dark Confidant as soon as possible. Jotun Grunt is the only fucker to watch out for. And EE will be your best friend in this matchup.

Point 6: Beating Survival and Loam Matchups

Ok, in this case I must say that these is the most difficult. Landstill is the controldeck which can gain a massive cardadvantage while still being flexible.

Just watch that you can handle Survival and stall the whole shit with Disk-Recursion, then taking him slowly down with your manlands.

But pithing Needle are a valuable Sideboard card against these Matchups since they shut down Survival, Aether Vial, Seismis Assault and WASTELAND!.
Graveyardhate is important against each of them.

I think UR Landstill fullfills those criterias the most. And it could possibly beat Flash, but Flash is no longer a big problem since it got BANNED (Amen on that).

What do you think about that?

[LrdMcCaffrey]

Taco-I have a question on Leyline of the Void vs. Planar Void.

Now that stopping retardely fast wins off Flash isn't as important, would it be better to run the old version of the card? The downsides as I see it are that it would tie up your mana turn 1 assuming it was in hand, and remove your own cards shutting off Loam. It also is counterable and doesn't stop any "When this would be put into a graveyard from play" effects, but with Hulk gone no important ones really come to mind. On the plus side, it's a much easier card to hardcast, meaning that if you find it early off a brainstorm or standstill, it's almost as good as if it were in your hand, and if bounced is much easier to put back into play. Lastly, it removes your cards from the game as well, meaning it's a much more effective answer for shutting off Tarmogoyf vs Thresh.

[Tacosnape]

Taco-I have a question on Leyline of the Void vs. Planar Void.

Now that stopping retardely fast wins off Flash isn't as important, would it be better to run the old version of the card? The downsides as I see it are that it would tie up your mana turn 1 assuming it was in hand, and remove your own cards shutting off Loam. It also is counterable and doesn't stop any "When this would be put into a graveyard from play" effects, but with Hulk gone no important ones really come to mind. On the plus side, it's a much easier card to hardcast, meaning that if you find it early off a brainstorm or standstill, it's almost as good as if it were in your hand, and if bounced is much easier to put back into play. Lastly, it removes your cards from the game as well, meaning it's a much more effective answer for shutting off Tarmogoyf vs Thresh.

It doesn't just shut off Loam. It also shuts off Nantuko Monestary. Which is why Planar Void isn't in consideration. Landstill's clock is glacial enough without cripping itself.

Leyline of the Void is also uncounterable and comes out turn 0, making your ability to shut off Ill-Gotten Gains decks fantastic when you pair that with being able to leave your first mana open for Stifle. Leyline of the Void also has a much much much higher shot of surviving a Pernicious Deed than does Planar Void.

Tarmogoyf is the farthest thing imaginable from being a problem. I run eight counters, 4 Diabolic Edicts, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Pernicious Deeds, and a Crime//Punishment. Not counting the counters, that's more creature removal spells than some builds of Threshold runs creatures! And if all else fails, you can more often than not gangblock him with manlands.

You have infinitely more card advantage than Threshold. Your Standstills can't fail, and a single Fact or Fiction resolving is usually more than they can ever recover from. You should rarely if ever have a problem removing Tarmogoyf from the board. The only ways I've ever lost to Threshold, and I mean ever, was by a trio of Meddling Mages that got lucky and named every card in my hand, or by a barrage of Pithing Needles shutting off Deed, Factory, and Monestary. This hasn't happened again since I added the lone Crime//Punishment.

It's worth noting that if they run Tarmogoyf, your matchup actually gets stronger. I do not board in Leyline of the Void against Threshold; it's completely unnecessary. Instead, sweep their board, and if you get the chance, try to Crime Tarmogoyf or Mystic Enforcer or whatever their big guy is. If they boarded out STP or don't have as many STP's as you have counters, you'll walk all over them.

[URABAHN]

For those of you that have tested 4C Landstill, how does the manabase fare against Goblins and how difficult is it to get rid of 8-14 Warrens Tokens on Turn 1-2 when you're not playing Engineered Explosives?

[Tacosnape]

For those of you that have tested 4C Landstill, how does the manabase fare against Goblins and how difficult is it to get rid of 8-14 Warrens Tokens on Turn 1-2 when you're not playing Engineered Explosives?

For manabase against goblins, fairly well. Stifle goes a long way to stopping Wasteland, as not only does it kill their Wasteland, it puts them down a land, which against Goblins without a Vial on the board can on occasion be as powerful as Time Stretch. Also, as long as you know when to sit on a fetchland and when to crack it, you can circumvent Port long enough to live. Every now and then a turn one Lackey will cause you to fire off a Swords, and they'll follow back with something ridiculous like Lackey #2 or Vial followed by Wasteland. There isn't much you can do here, so consider Forcing the Lackey even with Tundra/STP or fetch STP in hand depending on how your mana looks and how blue your hand is. The long game can be ridiculous if they get a lot of Rishadan Ports down, and if they do this game 1, you'll probably lose. Consider surviving it by boarding in Meddling Mage or attempting Crime on a Siege-Gang Commander.

As for the ETW tokens, hard if they go first, pretty easy if they don't. Force mana acceleration. If you go first, you have Stifle at your disposal. If not, your best hope is that they cap out at eight to ten and you can stall a single copy with Force or a couple tokens with STP or Factory (But not both or you can't drop the Deed turn 3) long enough to drop down a Deed or, postboard, a Plague.

I'm in the process of testing out a pair of Engineered Explosives in the place of 1 Diabolic Edict and the Crime//Punishment. This gives you a much better game against Empty the Warrens. The Crime part of Crime//Punishment is irreplacable in some matches, however, most notably in anything relying on Genesis. I'll let you know how it rolls.

[Nihil Credo]

Taco, what's your SB plan against Goblins? You mentioned bringing in both Plague and Mage, and I assume you are also bringing in BEBs (if nothing to replace Edicts). So what do you board out? Counterspell and FOF? Do you leave in Standstill, and hope to not let them get a Vial on board?

[Berzerked]

I'm in the process of testing out a pair of Engineered Explosives in the place of 1 Diabolic Edict and the Crime//Punishment. This gives you a much better game against Empty the Warrens.

Here's a list I was testing out that resembles yours a lot, though I used BHWC as a reference point:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Academy Ruins
1 Lonely Sandbar

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Intuition

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam

As amazing as FoF is, it's really only good in the later game, and doesn't always flip over what you want. Intuition lets you grab whatever you need at the time, be it 3 FoW in a pinch, Ruins-EE-Loam for a reliable, albeit rather slow, continuous sweeper, or Loam-Sanbar-Manland for a better draw engine than FoF in the late game with bonus recursive beats.
Ruins lets you pick up Explosives if you happen to dredge it away, or even a Tormod's Crypt from the board to make sure Thresh never turns aggressive.
Darkblast is especially there for an additional answer to Lackey, while still being good weenie removal, and an additional dredger.
I still like Wasteland, but I agree that there were too many colorless lands, so I adjusted the number a little bit, and It's been doing fine.

Thoughts/ideas?

[Tacosnape]

Taco, what's your SB plan against Goblins? You mentioned bringing in both Plague and Mage, and I assume you are also bringing in BEBs (if nothing to replace Edicts). So what do you board out? Counterspell and FOF? Do you leave in Standstill, and hope to not let them get a Vial on board?

It varies based on the build of Goblins and the person piloting it. I realize that's not an incredibly helpful answer, so I'll try to elaborate as best I can.

With any luck, you saw the colors they're playing in game 1. If I know I'm not going to win game 1, that's all I try to stall for; making my opponent show me what splash color he's playing. Once I know, I'll concede a losing game to buy time.

If your opponent is playing the conventional R/G Goblins with Tin-Street, you can assume he's going to board in Krosan Grip and you board in Meddling Mages. If you see White instead of green, Mage is a dangerous board and one I would stay away from, as you can counter Disenchant and Leave No Trace. If you don't see either color (Or if you see a Tinkerer or King), do not board in the mage, as it could mean they're playing straight Red, which highly increases the chances they run Blasts in the board and means they'll have no way to hit your Plagues at all.

Whether to leave Standstill in or not is something we're experimenting a lot with lately. I used to not do it, ever. Now, however, I always leave it in on the play and I'm much more apt to leave it in on the draw. Just Force anything that's a 1-drop not named Mogg Fanatic and you're in okay shape. In the build with the 2 Engineered Explosives, I would always leave it in, as your capacity to keep Vial off the board is all the stronger. If you leave Standstill in, however, you have to play it with a completely clear board. In my most recent match against my teammate, he dropped a Standstill with a Factory in play to just my Matron. I then proceeded to play a Port, then draw another Port and a Wasteland, and beat him for 9 with the lone Matron before he was forced to break it.

The logic behind leaving Standstill in over Fact or Fiction is that it helps the fast game, which is your biggest weakness post-board. All you have to do to beat most Goblins decks is drop double Plague and Mage for their Plague removal. On occasion you might have to counter their Mage removal also.

So against Green, this is what I do:
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Meddling Mage
+3 Blue Elemental Blast

-4 Counterspell
-3 Fact or Fiction
-1 Crime//Punishment
-1 Life From The Loam
-1 Pernicious Deed

Now I realize boarding out the Loam seems incredibly stupid here, but it isn't. Games 2 and 3, I simply don't fetch Green early on. There's no reason for it. This is another huge reason I only play the three Tropicals. I play it almost like UWB Landstill until the midgame, where I may need a Deed or a Monestary. The reason for this is that early on, you want Black for Edict and White for STP, as well as making sure you have Black for Plague by turn three. Green, on the other hand, won't help you Survive the early assault. Remember, your goal is to survive the early game.

Three Mages is plenty, as you generally only need one to kill your opponent. You'll kill with Mage more often than anything, as multiple Rishadan Ports can shut you down and there isn't much you can do about it.

Against Red/White, I play differently. Here I go:
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Blue Elemental Blast

-2 Counterspell
-3 Fact or Fiction
-1 Crime//Punishment
-1 Life From The Loam

or

-2 Counterspell
-1 Fact or Fiction
-2 Pernicious Deed
-1 Crime//Punishment
-1 Life From The Loam

I actually base the latter decision on how likely the opponent is to overextend and how likely they are to just play manabase disruption with a pair of Goblins on the board. Also a factor is how aggressively they tend to Mulligan. I keep a pair of Counterspells in to help against Disenchant / Leave No Trace / Armageddon.

Against an assumed Mono-Red or Red-Black, I'd do this:

+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Blue Elemental Blast

-4 Counterspell
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Life From The Loam
-1 Crime//Punishment

You have no fear of them removing your Plagues, so ditch the Counters and the overcosted stuff and just play straightforward, cutthroat goblin hate.

[Nihil Credo]

Thanks for the explanation. Points I disagree with:
1) Why would you cut mass sweepers rather than Diabolic Edicts? Edicts are subpar against Goblins in the majority of situation. If Plague hits you're in good shape anyway, and Deed can still destroy the hated Piledrivers... while saving your ass when you don't get the Plague. This deck encourages overextending on the Goblin player's side.
2) Crime//Punishment is your only answer to Needle on Deed or manlands, which many builds run, and is also a fifth answer to Vial. It's already saved my ass in two games against Goblins, and I've only been playing the deck since this afternoon. I'd prefer to cut another FoF, which is incredibly clunkey in this matchup.

[Tacosnape]

Thanks for the explanation. Points I disagree with:
1) Why would you cut mass sweepers rather than Diabolic Edicts? Edicts are subpar against Goblins in the majority of situation. If Plague hits you're in good shape anyway, and Deed can still destroy the hated Piledrivers... while saving your ass when you don't get the Plague. This deck encourages overextending on the Goblin player's side.
2) Crime//Punishment is your only answer to Needle on Deed or manlands, which many builds run, and is also a fifth answer to Vial. It's already saved my ass in two games against Goblins, and I've only been playing the deck since this afternoon. I'd prefer to cut another FoF, which is incredibly clunkey in this matchup.

1. Diabolic Edict has a reputation for being bad against Goblins that simply isn't true. It is better than you think. It'll take out lone Warchiefs and Piledrivers a full two turns faster than a sweeper will, and buy you plenty more time to hit into Plague. Sweepers in this deck also require green. Green is a liability early on. In any case, you aren't the only one to disagree with me on this, trust me. But I found I do strongly better cutting the single sweeper over the single Edict.

2. None of my last twenty goblin matches showed a single Pithing Needle. Possibly more. I haven't seen a single Goblin deck in the last year at any tournament that ran it. I'm always going to assume Goblins doesn't have a Needle. If they have it, they need 2 to create any real lock on me. If they get the two, I'll kill them with Plagues and Mage. If Goblins ever somehow goes back to commonly running Pithing Needle, which I don't foresee, then sideboarding strategy might change accordingly (all the more reason to run Engineered Explosives too.)

Anyhow, I took this deck to 1st in a small local tournament. I was going to write a report tonight, but got detained by stupid local police like one road from my house and harrassed for basically doing nothing. I just got pulled over because I was driving at 3:00am and therefore had the potential to be drunk or on drugs or something. Wtfever. I see why people hate cops.

EDIT: Mmk, well, here's that tournament report I promised. I took the list I posted previously with one sideboard change: +4 Orim's Chant, -4 Leyline of the Void. It was a small tournament with Solidarity being played (One of my worst matchups) and I knew nobody had Flash or Loam, as people with said decks were busy losing horribly at Regionals.

Round 1: Crystal (Burn)
Odd Notes: Last time I played against this deck I got outraced while connecting with Goblin Lackey on the play. Great.

Game 1:
I lose the die roll and get quickly assailed by Spark Elementals, Chains, Lava Spikes, and Rift Bolts. I manage to chain two Standstills into a hand brimming with Counters and Forces, and manage to Edict and STP two Ball Lightnings. Fact or Fiction refuels me while she topdecks land, and I manage to swing for the win with two Factories and a Monestary just as I run out of counters.

+4 Engineered Plague, +3 Blue Elemental Blast, +2 Meddling Mage
-4 Pernicious Deed, -3 Fact or Fiction, -1 Crime//Punishment, -1 Life From The Loam,

Game 2:
Crystal gets stuck at two lands for a few turns while I try to draw into counters, only to have both my Brainstorms Pyroblasted. Ouch. I counter a Price of Progress, then drop a Mage naming it, and manage to kill off back to back Ball Lightnings with Diabolic Edict. My factories come down fast, and I'm able to swing for the win.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2: Jonathan (Solidarity)
Odd Notes: The Solidarity deck is mine. My best hope is that he makes a mistake. I win the die roll 2-1 on a d20, amusingly.

Game 1: I could be wrong. I chain Standstills early, and when he tries to go off with seven lands in play, my hand is Force, Force, Force, Counter, Counter, Stifle. I let two Tides resolve so I can hardcast the Force, then he exhausts my entire hand full of countermagic as I target only his draw spells. Storm Count just in the counter fight gets incredibly high. His last card is a Brain Freeze, for which I have the Stifle. I swing for the win.

+4 Orim's Chant, +4 Meddling Mage, +3 Blue Elemental Blast
-11 Sweepers/Creature Removers

Game 2: Again I chain Standstills early and have a decent hand when he tries to go off. He tries to bounce the mage and I chant in response, intending to replay the Mage. He Forces the Chant, I Force back, He Forces back. I decide to slowroll the counter at this point, as I have a feeling he's waiting to Meditate/Reset if I spend another Force. Then begins his combo. I easily win the counterbattle with two more hard counters and another Chant still in hand, in large part by countering a Meditate with a Twincast aimed at it for insane advantage. He tries to Reset, I chant, and he spite Freezes me down to 4 cards. Ouch. I untap, draw a Monestary, replay my Mage for Brain Freeze so he doesn't randomly topdeck the win, then he scoops when he doesn't draw Turnabout to stall.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3: Tyler (Stark Black w/o Wastelands)
Odd Notes: Also my deck. Most insane match ever. Tyler expected to have to report me as a win either way since he's using my deck, as that's sadly the norm around here and how one of our local players bought his way into Top 10 Eternal in the world. I told him he earned the win regardless of whose deck he was using.

Game 1:
I go Delta, go. He goes Ritual, Sarcomancy (Which I Stifle after fetching a land), Sarcomancy, Carnophage. Ouch. I untap, and ironically topdeck Standstill. Next turn he drops a Shade. I draw another Standstill. Next turn he drops two more Carnophages. I die horribly.

+4 Engineered Plague, -3 Stifle, -1 Life from the Loam.

Game 2:
He leads with Swamp, Sarcomancy. I drop a Tundra and pass. He Hymns, and I swords the Sarcomancy token in response, then get the Standstill and a Monestary hymned out of my hand. He Unmasks, taking my Force, leaving me with all land in hand. I untap, draw a Standstill, Delta for Sea, play the Standstill, and pass. He drops an Ebon Hand to break the Standstill, and I draw three Diabolic Edicts off the Standstill. I untap and draw the fourth Diabolic Edict. I can't help but laugh and as Tyler's a friend of mine, I show him what I've just drawn. After laughing so hard we can't play for a few minutes, I edict creature after creature and easily cruise to the win.

Game 3: I keep Tropical Island, Tundra, Brainstorm, Standstill, Force, Deed, Fact or Fiction, thinking that I can Force early disruption and Standstill or Brainstorm into Black and easily win. He opens with Ritual, Carnophage, Hymn. I Force pitching the FoF. I draw STP and drop a Land. He drops some non pro-white guy (a Shade, I think), cause I Swordsed it EOT and dropped the Standstill. He broke it and I don't get black mana. I brainstorm, and still don't get black Mana. I die to a horde with double Plague and double Deed in hand, with Tropicals and Tundras galore on the table. Now before everyone jumps all on the "See, told you 4C Landstill's manabase was bad," bandwagon, this was my only problem of the night.

2-1 (5-2)

Round 4: Mike (Train Wreck)
Odd Notes: This was the most mentally exhausting match I've ever played in my life, including Solidarity mirrors. Mike made more ridiculously brilliant plays than I've ever seen him make.

Game 1:
Not a lot to note here. I crush him. He shows a hand full of Mutilates (He's still hunting Damnations) and Chainer's Edicts after the win.

No SB changes (In Hindsight, this was a bad move. I needed Meddling Mage.)

Game 2: I stifle his first land, and he Extirpates Stifle. He stalls my early assauly with double Plague on Assembly Worker (!), and as we progress, he Extirpates Counterspell, then Force of Will. I grumble jokingly about him miraculously getting all his Extirpates that fast in a deck with no draw outside of Staff of Domination, and he laughs. This leaves me defenseless for a Haunting Echoes. Echoes misses Monestary, however, and leaves me with a single Factory on the board, but a Library of less than 15 cards. I've Deeded away the Plagues at this point, but my Factory gets nailed with Putrefy. I try the lone Fact or Fiction which was in my hand. I hit two Tundras, two Deeds, and a Loam. He brilliantly divides the pile into Loam and Everything Else, as I have to take the Loam and ditch the other four in order to get Threshold fast enough to kill him. I draw a Monestary with 7 cards remaining in library and two more in there, play the Loam without returning anything planning to dredge it next turn, and pass. He topdecks a second Haunting Echoes, though, leaving me no way to get Threshold and kill him. I scoop. He shows me a Tombstalker in his hand after the game, which he withheld just so I couldn't kill it and steal it off Crime//Punishment in order to kill him. Ridiculous tech.

+4 Meddling Mage. Don't remember what I boarded out as it was rushed.

Game 3: We've got less than ten minutes going into this game. I play at insane speeds, dropping Mages for Extirpate and countering creature removal. He finally gets rid of the mage off double Diabolic Edicts. He gets a Tombstalker down, which I Edict back, and begin beating him down with Mishra's Factories. I get a Monestary down, then to generate Threshold, I activate a factory and Stifle it twice on my end step. I pound him with triple Factories and the Monestary during the 5 turns.

3-1 (7-3)
Semifinals: Jonathan (Solidarity)
Odd Notes: Earlier I'd watched Jonathan play, and he actually pilots the deck pretty well.

Game 1:
Jonathan mulligans to five, then kept a hand with 1 land, Opt, and Brainstorm. Neither of which dug him into a second land. I have him to eight before he gets a second land and easily cruise for the win.

Same board plan as before.

Game 2:
I get multiple Mages, multiple Chants, and multiple counters. Can't recall the exact sequence, but I roll on easily.

Finals: Tyler (Stark Black)
Odd Notes: Tyler's gone undefeated to this point for his personal best result ever.

Game 1: Tyler mulligans to five. I chain like three Standstills and sweep him with Deed, then pound away at him with manlands. He never keeps a threat down.

Game 2: This time I have to mulligan to five, keeping four land including a Factory and a Brainstorm. He gets a huge horde of threats out, but I topdeck a Pernicious Deed with a very small time window to do so. I sweep the board while at 2, then I hit a Fact or Fiction for STP, Deed, and three Diabolic Edicts. Tyler, laughing, asks me how many Diabolic Edicts I run, and I inform him that I run 17, as our matches have clearly proven. I keep him off any threats and Mishra's Factory puts him in range to die to his own Sarcomancy.

My prize is four packs from the pool of eight which included 2 Guildpact, 1 9th, 1 Future Sight, 1 Scourge, 1 Betrayers, 1 Saviors, and 1 Champions. I take a Guildpact, Betrayers, Saviors, and 9th, netting an Umezawa's Jitte for my troubles.

[acidhead]

Hi all!

My first time posting here. I'm a 27 years old Landstill-Fan from Germany and I'm playing Magic nearly since 10 years or so.

I've visited this forum from time to time as I developed my first landstill build, but at this time I wanted to make my own adjustments and check the outcome. These builds where much like the "classical" Style from Marius Hausmann, list follows later.

Recently, I've started playing Magic-Tourneys again and, after some negative results which mainly get on my cost, I've started to think about some tuning for my list. I like Tacosnapes 4cc-Landstill and I'm not sure which sort of Landstill is more powerfull. To play Swords, Edicts and Deeds as 4ofs md is awesome, but the list gives me a feeling which is much to "greenish" for me. I will test this build in the next days, maybe it's just my first impression.

Well, as I've said, I was looking for some tuning for my tourney build and found some interessting Idea: make it 3-Color, try green. My first reason was that I've already got 3 Tropical Island for my Bird Shit List and could now play Engineered Explosives, so I've tried this (and some design changes I will explain later) and are pleased of my test games so far.

So, time for the Lists. At first my old Landstill from the first Design Phase, the file is dated to October 05:

Lands
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

Draw
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Teferi's Response
1 Stifle

Removal
4 Wrath of God
2 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant

Tools
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish

Win
1 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

Sideboard
1 Stifle
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Misdirection
4 Chill
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Honor the Fallen
1 Dismantling Blow
2 Jester's Cap

It's clasic uw-Landstill with Wish Engine, the Fetches didn't know anything about Pithing Needle. But it constantly holding it's performance, even though clumsy.

Second, the list from my last tourney:

Lands
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
3 Wasteland

Draw
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

Removal
4 Wrath of God
2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant

Tools
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish

Win
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

Sideboard
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Misdirection
1 Honor the Fallen
1 Dismantling Blow
4 Meddling Mage
3 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Pithing Needle

Mainly the same good old style. I've cutted the fourth Wasteland with a heavy heart for another Fetch, mostly with crucible in mind. Disk get cutted a long time ago, since I didn't like to protect it until it get's online. I've experimented this day with the outpost, it's pretty good for chumpblocking and such, but mainly suxx 'cause of it's drawback. The Deck is performing fairly good, but is a little bit clumsy and isn't strong enough against aggro. I needed a way to handle my opponents early threats faster and more flexible - and found it in Engineered Explosives. So I developed this:

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Treetop Village
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland

Draw
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Voidslime
2 Stifle

Removal
4 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

Tools
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Pulse of the Fields

Win
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

Sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Jotun Grunt

As you can see, it's mainly uw-landstill. The green Splash is needed for EE and Treetop, I also added 2 Voidslime since i feeled the urge for 2 Hardcounters more and it's pretty good. At the moment I'm thinking about playing Dissipate instead of Voidslime, because of Dissipates excellent power against LftL and Co.
I'm playing 2 Pulse md instead of Wishes (most times i used wishes for those) and last but not least I've added Academy Ruins as an "Win more".
I'm pleased with it's performace and looking forward to play it on tourneys here in the next month. It have the power and stability of an classical uw-landstill plus the flexibility of EE and the power of Treetop Village.

Which get us directly to the battles about the choices:

@Treetop Village vs. Nantuko Monastery: I've naturaly thought about monastery as I designed this Deck, but i didn't like that it's need ******** and didn't play it 'cause it's consumes 2 valuable colored mana sources. Also there are 3 good Reasons for Treetop Village:
1. It produced colored Mana. So I get 4 other green sources in my deck for each of it.
2. It cost only 1g to activate - so i must only tap one blue source or the other Treetop and pay the colorless with Waste or Ruins.
3. It's 3/3, that's a lot better than the Conclave's 2/1 Body and also ok compared with the nantuko's 4/4, if we keep it's activation cost in mind.

@Wasteland: I'm not thinking the rationale of wasteland in landstill is just "it's usefull against other manlands and rishadan port", that's shortsighted.
It's a important piece of landstill 'cause it supplies us with a small Mana Denial Strategy. I'm fully aware of the Fact that, since there's no Strip Mine in Legacy, that the mana denial couldn't opponents totally. But it's often wins me a round to surpress a color.
Also it's colorless mana calls "put me into manlands!"

@Crucible vs. LftL: I would definitely say Crucible >> LftL, 'cause Crucible allows us to recurse a single land each round without drawbacks. Also I would never put Dredge Card in an Deck like Landstill, we rely on Counterspells and Removal - none of it should get unused into the Graveyard.

Thanks to anybody who has read so far.


acid

[Tinefol]

Tacosnape, absolutely liked your decklist, and here's what I have to say about goblins match up. Having played straight UW Landstill before, I have expected a sucky match up, but it turned out that deed/edict really do make difference. But if opponent draws multiple ports, it gets pretty much unwinnable, as ports shut down your win conditions and he has all the time to recover. I even decked once because of it, as my lonely loam was in last 4 cards of the library, and he's been tapping my manlands (and used a few wastelands too). I dunno, perhaps adding a single Eternal Dragon would help?

[mikekelley]

Here is my list as of today.

Land (24)

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cabal Pit

Artifacts (3)
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives

Non-blue (13)
2x Krosan Grip
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Diabolic Edict
4x Pernicious Deed

Blue (20)
2x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will

Side:

4x Meddling Mage
4x Blue Elemental Blast
4x Duress
3x Pithing Needle

I'd like some critiquing - I don't know if I'm falling into the trap of trying to do too much at once.

I loved Engineered Explosives in UGb. So I play it here as well- the option to go up to four if needed is good. Academy Ruins helps to recur it, other than that it's pretty useless. However when I get that combo online, I win 95% of the time.

Cabal Pit is great. I dropped the fourth edict for it, and it's been pretty useful. Pit + Crucible makes many decks in today's meta (read: Fish) scoop up the cards. Someone else mentioned it was a house, and they are right. Plus it taps for black if I need it to.

The rest of the list is somewhat standard. I run 6 fetches to insure that I can have access to all of my colors as soon as I need to.

I'd love to squeeze in a 3rd Monastery, as I think it would help speed up games and give another win condition.

I've been concerned about not having enough blue cards for Force of Will, does it seem low to anyone else? I was considering going up to 4x Stifle somehow to help that (plus stifle is great). Any suggestions?

[Tacosnape]

Tacosnape, absolutely liked your decklist, and here's what I have to say about goblins match up. Having played straight UW Landstill before, I have expected a sucky match up, but it turned out that deed/edict really do make difference. But if opponent draws multiple ports, it gets pretty much unwinnable, as ports shut down your win conditions and he has all the time to recover. I even decked once because of it, as my lonely loam was in last 4 cards of the library, and he's been tapping my manlands (and used a few wastelands too). I dunno, perhaps adding a single Eternal Dragon would help?

This is admittedly a huge problem and I completely agree with you. There isn't a single card in Legacy this deck fears more than Rishadan Port. This is also the largest reason I tend to board in Meddling Mages in most Goblin matchups.

The single Crime can sometimes steal a threat for the kill, but not if you've got a plague lock. I tried Eternal Dragon and found him more than a bit on the narrow side, but it's a possibility. If Rishadan Port proves to be too much of a hassle, you could always bring back Teferi's Response. It's too narrow to maindeck I think, but it's solid gold against Port.

Personally, I more or less accept that Goblins is going to be ridiculously difficult thanks to Port, and go with it. Sometimes they don't draw or run the full complement of ports. Sometimes you can get five manlands on the board. Sometimes you can lock them down with Plague and Mage and beat face. And then, sometimes you just take your Goblins loss like a champ and still make top 8 due to having good matchups against countless other commonly played decks.


I'd like some critiquing - I don't know if I'm falling into the trap of trying to do too much at once.

I think you are in a couple of points, but for the most part it looks okay.

@Engineered Explosives: It's not bad. I still prefer Crime//Punishment, as it's just as fast killing off annoying ETW tokens, and has Crime for the alternate kill condition factor. The only downside is that C//P can't go off at instant speed.

@Cabal Pit: Why? For all intents and purposes, the only thing Cabal Pit can kill that you absolutely have to get off the board immediately is Dark Confidant. Everything else you can wait and sweep, and Mishra's Factory does the same thing Cabal Pit does as far as keeping the little dudes from hitting you until they overextend enough to make sweeping their board worthwhile. You're also weakening your manabase and causing yourself damage in a deck that absolutely can't afford to take any more damage than necessary. This deck often very often stabilizes at less than 5 life and relies on chaining and drawing into counters and answers to keep you from dying.

@Academy Ruins: It's not worth it just to recur Engineered Explosives. You should be winning anyway due to drawing ridiculous amounts of cards if you get to this point. It can recur Crucible, but Crucible could be Loam and recur itself while digging deeper for kill conditions. This is better off being a dual land.

@Krosan Grip: Interesting maindeck choice. I never found it necessary between C//P and Deed and the counters, but I've definitely thought about it. How's it working for you?

@3rd Monestary: I'm temporarily experimenting with cutting back to 2. It just sucks in my opening hand. 3 can be nice sometimes, but isn't terribly necessary.

@Stifle: 4 is too many to maindeck. Sometimes Stifle just absolutely sucks and I've lost games from having hands full of nothing but Stifle while I got my face bashed in. I fluctuate between 2 and 3, but generally stick with 3 due to it being solid against fast combo. The right number of Stifles seems to me to be about 2.5, but since Stifle isn't on any split cards just yet, I think 2 or 3 are both feasible.

@Pithing Needle: Explain.

[mikekelley]

I think you are in a couple of points, but for the most part it looks okay.

@Engineered Explosives: It's not bad. I still prefer Crime//Punishment, as it's just as fast killing off annoying ETW tokens, and has Crime for the alternate kill condition factor. The only downside is that C//P can't go off at instant speed.

I like C/P as well, but the fact that A. EE is an artifact B. I can lay it early against warrens tokens and so on and so forth, and have an entire main phase to do as I please is a nice thing. It seems like Deed #5, which isn't bad. I like the punishment part. I can see it doing damage. If I can pick some up, i'll give it a shot.



@Cabal Pit: Why? For all intents and purposes, the only thing Cabal Pit can kill that you absolutely have to get off the board immediately is Dark Confidant. Everything else you can wait and sweep, and Mishra's Factory does the same thing Cabal Pit does as far as keeping the little dudes from hitting you until they overextend enough to make sweeping their board worthwhile. You're also weakening your manabase and causing yourself damage in a deck that absolutely can't afford to take any more damage than necessary. This deck often very often stabilizes at less than 5 life and relies on chaining and drawing into counters and answers to keep you from dying.


I guess this goes along with the fact that I love to regrow shit. I think it's runoff from my Academy Ruins/ EE combo. I was still up in the air about it. I'll try to test more and see what happens. I see your points though.



@Academy Ruins: It's not worth it just to recur Engineered Explosives. You should be winning anyway due to drawing ridiculous amounts of cards if you get to this point. It can recur Crucible, but Crucible could be Loam and recur itself while digging deeper for kill conditions. This is better off being a dual land.

What if I ran 2 EE instead of 1 with ruins? Ruins sucks and doesn't tap for blue, can't be fetched, and seems to be dead in about half the games, but the other half of the time I get it out the deck is just retarded.



@Krosan Grip: Interesting maindeck choice. I never found it necessary between C//P and Deed and the counters, but I've definitely thought about it. How's it working for you?

I love it and would never drop it. There is too much random shit out there that needs to be dealt with. Someone earlier was contending that the 1g for naturalize or 1w for disenchant was too much. I ask, what are you smoking? It can get you out of a lot of pickles. There is so much random shit out there, confinement, crucible, opposing EE, chalices (chalii?), faerie stompy and all the ripoffs that include jitte and a sword, vial shenanigans, etc. It stays, i'm confident in it.



@3rd Monestary: I'm temporarily experimenting with cutting back to 2. It just sucks in my opening hand. 3 can be nice sometimes, but isn't terribly necessary.

I can see your point there. I think I just make a mental note more often when I am looking for one than when I don't need one, so I'll keep that in mind.




@Stifle: 4 is too many to maindeck. Sometimes Stifle just absolutely sucks and I've lost games from having hands full of nothing but Stifle while I got my face bashed in. I fluctuate between 2 and 3, but generally stick with 3 due to it being solid against fast combo. The right number of Stifles seems to me to be about 2.5, but since Stifle isn't on any split cards just yet, I think 2 or 3 are both feasible.
I have no problem running three, the question just becomes "what to cut from the main?" 'Cause as of now it's pretty tight.



@Pithing Needle: Explain.

I needed 3 more cards. I'm thinking of going -3 Needle, +1 Stifle, + other things. I enjoy extirpate here in the current meta, but with flash peacing out, i don't know. I guess these are meta slots.

[Solpugid]

I've tried a 4c build with and without krosan grip, as I thought it was necessary too. What I found was that it sat dead in my hand throughout a whole game more often than it showed up when I really needed it. I think the deck is much better without it, unless you're in a meta with a LOT of juicy targets.

[Tacosnape]

I've tried a 4c build with and without krosan grip, as I thought it was necessary too. What I found was that it sat dead in my hand throughout a whole game more often than it showed up when I really needed it. I think the deck is much better without it, unless you're in a meta with a LOT of juicy targets.

I agree. I haven't really tested Grip much because I pretty much assumed that was what the case would be.


I like C/P as well, but the fact that A. EE is an artifact B. I can lay it early against warrens tokens and so on and so forth, and have an entire main phase to do as I please is a nice thing. It seems like Deed #5, which isn't bad. I like the punishment part. I can see it doing damage. If I can pick some up, i'll give it a shot.

C//P is just as fast as EE. You're still going to have to spend that two mana at some point or another to kill the Warrens Tokens. The only downside in the EE race is that You can bomb the Warrens tokens with any 2 mana, whereas C//P will make you dig up the Green-Black.


I guess this goes along with the fact that I love to regrow shit. I think it's runoff from my Academy Ruins/ EE combo. I was still up in the air about it. I'll try to test more and see what happens. I see your points though.

The thing about 4C Landstill is that you don't really need to recur anything to win most of your matches, ever. The only thing you periodically need to recur are your kill conditions, and either Crucible or Loam takes care of that. I'm also a firm believer that any land you run in Landstill needs to either produce blue and possibly another color, or kill your opponent.


What if I ran 2 EE instead of 1 with ruins? Ruins sucks and doesn't tap for blue, can't be fetched, and seems to be dead in about half the games, but the other half of the time I get it out the deck is just retarded.

This would certainly be an improvement in my mind, just be careful about cutting below 24 lands.


I love it and would never drop it. There is too much random shit out there that needs to be dealt with. Someone earlier was contending that the 1g for naturalize or 1w for disenchant was too much. I ask, what are you smoking? It can get you out of a lot of pickles. There is so much random shit out there, confinement, crucible, opposing EE, chalices (chalii?), faerie stompy and all the ripoffs that include jitte and a sword, vial shenanigans, etc. It stays, i'm confident in it.

The thing is, you already have 12-14 maindeck answers for everything you just listed: Force of Will, Counterspell, Pernicious Deed, and EE or C//P. Some, like Engineered Explosives, you have an additional 2-3 answers for in Stifle.

Confinement isn't a problem, as you have all day to draw into a Pernicious Deed or alternate sweeper, and you can win the counterwar to make it resolve pretty easily. Opposing Engineered Explosives do nothing but stop a manland, which can be recurred or the EE can be Stifled. Chalices are harmless with the deck's versatility and easy to blow up. Equipment is even more harmless, as Equipment aren't threats and can be dealt with by keeping them off of creatures, or by taking them down along with their carriers via Deed.

The only two annoying ones on your list are Vial and Crucible.

Vial is only a problem in Goblins. It should be Forced almost automatically, and it dies to Pernicious Deed. Having the Grip against Goblins will suck if you keep the Vial off the board, however. Plus, due to STP and Edict, Green will be the last color you focus on against Goblins, and it might be tricky to get on occasion. Still, Krosan Grip could be nice situationally here.

Crucible is slow enough to where you'll have Counterspell mana online often before it hits. It can be Forced, and it can be hit with Deed. But it's the best argument for Krosan Grip. I can see Grip if you're planning on hitting Landstill mirrors, as the uncounterability is a huge factor here. This is the only case where I find Grip to be worthwhile.


I needed 3 more cards. I'm thinking of going -3 Needle, +1 Stifle, + other things. I enjoy extirpate here in the current meta, but with flash peacing out, i don't know. I guess these are meta slots.

I recommend some combination of Extirpate and Orim's Chant (I run 2 and 2.) They're both fast, easy to cast, and have incredible impact. I've cut Leyline from my build in favor of these two (Leyline just wasn't strong enough post-flash.) Extirpate hits Life From The Loam, which is second only to Rishadan Port on the list of cards you fear the most. It also nails Genesis and Squee, various cards in Dredge, and is always worth boarding in against Combo as additional disruption.

Chant is a monster in a deck that almost never taps out. 4 is excessive, as you'll struggle to have enough Tundras to deal with playing Mages and multiple Chants, but two works nicely alongside the Extirpates.

[mikekelley]

Sometimes...shit happens. You lose a counter war or don't feel like double-forcing a douchey card, then you just get in shitty topdeck mode, pulling lands out all over the place.

Blue is everywhere in this format, everywhere. That means counters are everywhere. Force, counterspell, daze, the list goes on. Watching an opponent grit his teeth after you Grip his needle or something while he has a hand full of blue is a good thing.

As for now, it has certainly helped much more than it's hurt. I'll keep it in, I guess it's up to you what you choose. I don't think running it is going to make or break a matchup.

[ReAnimated]

@Taco
Can you give us your most recent list cause im still trying to decide which build to run ( Right now UWb ). I'm likeing it but im wondering if there are better options.


-Thanks in Advance :smile:

[Tacosnape]

@Reanimated: Sure.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island (+1 from previous)
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary (-1 from previous)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
1 Life From The Loam
1 Crime // Punishment

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Extirpate (+2 from previous)
2 Orim's Chant (+2 from previous)

I keep wanting to stick the second Loam back in, and I'd like a second Crime//Punishment, but I can't justify cutting anything for either one just yet. I also hate not having the third Monestary, but it sucks more to catch a pair of them in your first ten cards and lose due to bad mana. Especially when you're the guy making the argument that the deck doesn't have bad mana. Besides, Loam can dig for Monestary and Threshold simultaneously by playing and dredging if need be.

I assure you this build is worth trying over UWB. You can't imagine how incredibly amazing Pernicious Deed is compared to every other board sweeper in existence until you try it. (I think a large part of why I love this deck so much is that I get to play the two best multicolored cards ever printed in the same deck.) And Monestary is incredible hot sex when it comes to both blocking anything ever and swinging through almost anything.

[ReAnimated]

Yeah i really like P.Deeds ( So much fuckign better then E.E ) but the only reason i didnt wanna play 4C is because i would imagine the mana base is shaky. Thats why i chose the UWb first because i think 3C would have less mana issues than 4C , have you ever ran into this problem?

[Tacosnape]

Well, I mean, obviously an optimally-tuned 3-color Landstill will have less manabase issues than an optimally-tuned 4-color Landstill. The less colors you have, the better. At the same time, the more colors you can support, the more powerful cards you have access to.

However, this particular 4-Color Landstill has a very solid manabase, probably moreso than most 3-Color Landstill decks packing Wasteland or random jank like Cabal Pit and Academy Ruins. 18 of its 24 lands are color producing. In other words, it runs more blue sources than most Threshold decks and more blue sources than any other Landstill deck in existence. It runs no frilly janky lands; just color producers and kill conditions. The six fetches give you ten shots to hit White on turn one, which is usually the only color you need on turn one. Brainstorm will help dig for your missing colors, as will early Standstills, as will the lone Life From The Loam. Stifle will protect your manabase from Wasteland.

It's also worth noting that in UBW, the temptation is there to run Wrath of God and/or Damnation (Although I don't think most builds do) in order to compensate for EE being a far inferior sweeper to Deed. If you run either of these, you require a double color, and thereby you aren't really any better off than the 4-Color Landstill.

EDIT: If you're a firm believer in Wasteland or any other nondual nonkilling land, I highly suggest not running 4 colors. You'll have problems supporting it.

[ReAnimated]

Yeah im not that big of a fan of wasteland , my UWb build didnt run any , but i like Cabal Pit and Acedemy Ruins ( Not so much acedemy in 4c ). Why do you dislike Pit i see why you dislike ruins ( No artifacts = Bad ).

[Tacosnape]

Why I Dislike Cabal Pit
by Tacosnape

Apparently I'm back in 3rd grade writing a paper.

For my hot teacher, Miss Trodd. God she was hot. She was still hot when I ran into her at a different school in 8th grade. But I digress.

Cabal Pit falls under the Crucible/Wasteland category of the Danger of Cool Things. I will now list every reason I can think of why it's bad. This may take awhile.

1. It isn't helping your manabase. It produces only your third most important color, black. It doesn't fall under any of the three requirements for being a land in any Landstill deck (Be a blue dual, be a basic, or be a kill condition.)

2. It damages you. Landstill doesn't gain life, short of spending it's Swords to Plowshares on its own manlands or Crimed win conditions in emergencies. Your 20 life is too little as it is. Very often you won't get stabilized until you're near death. Every life point counts, and Cabal Pit hurts you.

3. It doesn't help your early game. Early on is when you need the help the most. In the lategame, Fact or Fiction and Standstill will keep you with plenty of removal for your opponent's threats.

4. You usually don't need the ability it grants when it does work. The purpose of Cabal Pit, even in recursion, is to pick off small creatures all day long so your opponent can't kill you with said tiny threats.

Yet here's the catch.

By the time you hit Threshold, find your land recursion, and find your Cabal Pit, your opponent can't touch you with small threats anyway. Mishra's Factory and Nantuko Monestary won't allow most of the pesky little critters to get through. If they drop several of them, that's when you clear their entire board with Pernicious Deed and proceed to clobber their faces.

The only potential problems are creatures with evasion, or creatures who kill you without attacking you (Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer.)

There are very few evasive creatures you fear that Cabal Pit could kill. Hypnotic Specter and Stromgald Crusader are about all that come to mind, as hardly anybody runs Soltari Priest anymore. In any case, none are particularly hard to get rid of, with Stromgald Crusader being the absolute hardest (Since you can't STP him.) Dark Confidant and Grim Lavamancer get quickly introduced to 8 billion kinds of removal, including Engineered Plague for wizards.

Every other guy in Cabal Pit range (without doing the Sac-Recur-Sac trick to do it twice in one turn) can be easily dealt with by Mishra's Factory or one of your other removal spells in a pinch.

And even if Cabal Pit does get rid of those small threats, the damage you took off tapping it for mana early in the game will probably be equal to or greater than the damage the small critters would have done to you in the first place.

[Anarky87]

I'm gonna test out Taco's list for the time being, except I took out the LftL for the Crucibles. Other than that, I think the list is card for card. And I might end up playing it at Gencon. I can't really see anything else being better right now and the deck performed fantastically for me at Columbus, so hopefully these changes will work out for me too.

[Tacosnape]

I'm gonna test out Taco's list for the time being, except I took out the LftL for the Crucibles. Other than that, I think the list is card for card. And I might end up playing it at Gencon. I can't really see anything else being better right now and the deck performed fantastically for me at Columbus, so hopefully these changes will work out for me too.

Twitch@Crucible.

Oh well. At least people listen to me on a lot of other things now. If I don't make it to Gencon, here's hoping you take 1st with it. If I do make it to Gencon, here's hoping you top 4 (I really don't want to play a Landstill mirror, like, ever, so I refuse to envision a scenario where you make the finals alongside me.)

EDIT: On second thought, I'd actually like to test that against you sometime in the future. I'm curious as to whether Loam or Crucible is superior in a Wastelandless Landstill mirror. Crucible would obviously be superior if you got it to stick, as it would all but guarantee you the Standstill edge, but Loam would be harder for Landstill to get rid of. Ironically, the mirror is probably my Landstill build's worst matchup, since most inferior builds still run Crucible/Wasteland, which is at its absolute best in the mirror.

[Anarky87]

Twitch@Crucible.

Oh well. At least people listen to me on a lot of other things now. If I don't make it to Gencon, here's hoping you take 1st with it. If I do make it to Gencon, here's hoping you top 4 (I really don't want to play a Landstill mirror, like, ever, so I refuse to envision a scenario where you make the finals alongside me.)

Of course, what more to snap the myth that Landstill (or Control to be broader) sucks in Legacy than 2 making the finals. :wink: On a serious note though, I don't wish the mirror on anyone.

[Tacosnape]

Of course, what more to snap the myth that Landstill (or Control to be broader) sucks in Legacy than 2 making the finals. :wink: On a serious note though, I don't wish the mirror on anyone.

It's not as bad as the Solidarity mirror, or the Scepter-Chant mirror when both sides get down a Scepter-Chant. It's nowhere near as fun as a Survival mirror, though, where when your opponent activates Survival, you can activate yours in response and make them sit there and wait just to annoy them.:cool:

I guess I really should test Wastelandless Landstill mirrors more. I kind of assumed I was the only one who would ever run the deck without Wasteland so I never spent any time testing it.

[The Big Cheese 3]

So basically my thresh manabase is safe since you do not run wasteland. Wow I wish everybody at my tourney that played landstill did this mistake because then I would I always win with thresh.

Hello, The Big Cheese 3. Welcome to The Source. Please read the Forum Rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/announcement.php?f=24) and FAQ for New Members (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468) before you continue posting. Also, be sure to look at the rules for posting in the LMF, found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/announcement.php?f=23). This post violates Rule 1 - The one line post. Have a nice day!

~ Nightmare

[Solpugid]

The Big Cheese 3, pernicious deed is just as scary as wasteland for threshold. The 4c landstill builds that run wasteland, therefore, might give you trouble. But those builds are far less likely to get the necessary colors for its spells. Put another way, 4c landstill has the advantage late-game, so threshold's job is to apply early pressure. Wasteland does not quell this pressure, but deed and edicts do. The importance of hitting your colors early enough cannot be overstated, and I applaud Tacosnape for his adamant endorsement of the removal of wasteland.

I've played both versions of this deck, and I've played both against threshold (and wih threshold). You will learn to fear the consistent deck more and more, trust me.

As of now the only issue I have with the build is the 4-of edict. In certain matchups it's fantastic, but I keep thinking another crime/punishment might serve better, albeit slower. As for loam, in my testing the difference between loam and crucible has become nearly moot, as each has an advantage in certain matchups. Specifically, if you expect to pop deed for 3 during the game, loam is probably better. If not, and you don't expect to see artifact removal, crucible probably gets the edge. But seriously, play what makes you happy.

[Anarky87]

So basically my thresh manabase is safe since you do not run wasteland. Wow I wish everybody at my tourney that played landstill did this mistake because then I would I always win with thresh.

I hope that thought gives you some comfort while you have no creatures and are getting smashed by Monastery beats. But hey, at least you'll have your lands, right?

A lot of us have determined Wasteland is pointless in the deck. Instead of trying to get Thresh in a Wastelock (which, you do run basics I'd hope, right? So Wastelock is moot), why not just win? I'd rather my manabase be stable and capable of producing the colors I need than having to continually mulligan hands because they only had 5 million colorless sources in them.

I'm thinking I might try LftL, but put try it as a 2-of instead of 1. Having only 1, I never seemed to draw it or find it. And there were a few games I lost because I couldn't find my Loam to recur my lands. So I'm gonna give 2 a try.

[ReAnimated]

@Taco

In the mirror of wastelandless Landstill , to me Loam would be better beacuase:

A. Gives u ***** ASAP
B. Since they dont have wasteland you don't ahev to worry SO much about recurring lands

But if you had both itd be solid , maybe we can find somethign to but for a config of 1 Crucible and 1 Loam. Toughts?

[Tacosnape]

So basically my thresh manabase is safe since you do not run wasteland. Wow I wish everybody at my tourney that played landstill did this mistake because then I would I always win with thresh.

I am 12-0 (Maybe 13-0, I lost count) in matches against UGW Threshold with Landstill, as it's probably the single most prominent deck in my metagame. I run more threat removal than they run threats and have the card advantage to back it up. I would be ecstatic to face Threshold all day long.

Admittedly I haven't tested as much against UGR Threshold. I anticipate that it would be partly harder due to the burn, but also partly easier due to the fact that they can't Mage my removal spells and STP my Manlands. I also haven't tested much against Tarmogoyf, which would be minor help for them as it makes blocking their threats out harder in the odd instance I have to.

The match is loseable, if your opponent gets a pair of fast threats, Needle locks Deed and any blocking manlands, and manages to Mage or Counter your threat removal all before you can generate card advantage. However, for a good Landstill player, this match is winnable far more often than not.


As of now the only issue I have with the build is the 4-of edict. In certain matchups it's fantastic, but I keep thinking another crime/punishment might serve better, albeit slower. As for loam, in my testing the difference between loam and crucible has become nearly moot, as each has an advantage in certain matchups. Specifically, if you expect to pop deed for 3 during the game, loam is probably better. If not, and you don't expect to see artifact removal, crucible probably gets the edge. But seriously, play what makes you happy.

I mostly agree with this, but I think you've understated the differences a little.

I will always pick Loam first and foremost just because it can recover from Duress, Therapy, and Force, while Crucible can't. It's complete peace of mind. It also digs for Monestaries, digs for Threshold, and dredges away bad cards after a Brainstorm.

Crucible rocks under the Standstill, though, and in matches where you're facing Wasteland, may be the better option, simply because it prevents your opponent from reversing the situation under a Standstill as easily. However, the fact that it's far more vulnerable than Loam and dies to your own Deed is a problem.

If you try a 2nd Loam, I'd cut either a Stifle or a Diabolic Edict. I kind of think of the other 58 cards as being canon, so to speak.

[mustang8907]

Well I went last night(which was a Wednesday), and played at a local tourny.
I played a version of 4c Landstill almost perfect to Nick's deck that he took to the Mana Leak. I think here is what i played

Land:
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

Counterspell:
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Disenchant

Sweeper:
4 Pernicious Deed

Disruption:
2 Stifle
3 Duress

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

Artifact:
2 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
1 Velkaden Shackles
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trickbind
1 Stifle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Hydroblast
1 Pithing Needle
(I ran out of money after the Underground Seas, so my sideboard is not done yet)

Well I went to this tourny and it had 18 people, which had a wide range of decks. From 2 Goblin decks that were completly done except the splash of a color, and both are decent at the decks; 2 belcher decks that have Warrens in as a second win condition; 1 Iggy Pop; 2 Landstill(1 being me); a Black Suicide; a Madness; Enchantress and some other stuff that I can't think of at this moment.

I went 3-2 and didn't make it in because of who I faced, but I figured I would tell you how I did.

First match was against the Iggy Pop player.
He won the first match pretty simple, I didnt have a Stifle for his Tendrils, end of story. Second game I knew what he had in hand and he had just enough mana to kill me using a dark rit, and I had a counter in hand and he was at 2 life , he was dead next turns, he draws his card for the turn and plays dark rit, i counter it , he plays another dark rit(the only card in the deck that could have saved him on the draw) and goes off and wins.
0-1

second match was against a wannabe affinity deck using welding jar still, deed wiped him both games leaving him defenseless
1-1
third game was against a belcher deck,
haha yea this match up, the guy got a first turn warrens to get him 10 goblins. i dropped a land and said go, he attacked , then i drop a factory and say go, he attacks and i block one leavin 1 life, all i need is a sea and i had a deed in hand, i draw a flooded strand and lose the game
second game i had a hand that had only 1 land but had a stifle and trickbind, and a disenchant, and luckely i drew a land next turn and was able to keep him from going off,
third game i kinda went the same was as the second only i drew into a couple counterspells and a trickbind and didnt have a problem winning
2-1
the fourth game was against a gob player, the first match i played a little to risky and he got a warchief and a piledriver in in a turn to get me for 14 in which i deeded next turn but he had 2 bolts and a fireblast to win it ended quick. the second game he didnt play anything first time and second turn i played a standstill and drew into my deck and won, third game i made a huge mistake i was at 7 life andi had a deed on board and a force in hand with mishra attacking each turn, he played a ringleader with 2 cards in hand, i stupidly countered it and he played a bolt and a blast to kill me.
2-2
last game was against the other landstill player, i dont remember much but i remember first game going fast with me on straight beat down. and then second game he kept trying to regrowth his decree to block my blockers untill he had mirrais wake to make the angels, and with him at 10 life and me having a factory and 2 monestarys. he cycled the decree for like 20 to get a ton of guys and i trickbind it and i won the game.
3-2

well normally this would have gotten me in the playoffs, but the belcher guy did horrible and didnt make it and the affinity player went 0-5 and i was 9th place one spot from playoffs,

this is my report, i would just like to say that 4 colors is deffinitly the way to go and deed is prob my fav card is one of the greatest 1.5 cards ever made.

I've warned you twice about spelling, grammar, and capitalization in the LMF. I also don't plan to finish correcting this post, since the last ten minutes only got me to your first match. Read the rules, and follow them. Infraction issued for failure to obey site rules.

~ Nightmare

[alakar]

I currently play 4c Landstill, and have found the manabase lacking. The wastelands tend to get me into a spot where it actually makes me more vulnerable to wastelands because of the lack of colored mana. I think removing wastelands could be one of the best things that can be done to this deck. Further more, I would like to advocate the importance of a second Crime/Punishment. I find myself often locked off of deed because of Pithing Needle. Though, many match-ups will not have more than 2 needles game one, I wonder if maybe one should move the extra Crime/Punishment to the board? Anyways, I plan on using Taco's list as a starting shell for my future Landstill builds. That being said, I would like to pose a question to you Tacosnape. What do you think of Chainer's Edict over Diabolic Edict? I've had great luck with it, as it increases the amount of removal in your deck. It also seems to be good with Life from the Loam. Anyways, keep up the good work!

[Tacosnape]

Further more, I would like to advocate the importance of a second Crime/Punishment. I find myself often locked off of deed because of Pithing Needle. Though, many match-ups will not have more than 2 needles game one, I wonder if maybe one should move the extra Crime/Punishment to the board? Anyways, I plan on using Taco's list as a starting shell for my future Landstill builds. That being said, I would like to pose a question to you Tacosnape. What do you think of Chainer's Edict over Diabolic Edict? I've had great luck with it, as it increases the amount of removal in your deck. It also seems to be good with Life from the Loam. Anyways, keep up the good work!

I don't like the second Crime//Punishment unless you face a lot of Empty the Warrens. The reason for this is that most decks that run Pithing Needle in large quantities (Threshold) are good matchups for you even if Deed gets shut off. Granted, I know I said a few posts back that I'd like to have a second one, but I can't see cutting anything for it. I'd have to convince myself it deserves the 4th Edict slot over both the Edict itself and the second Loam, and against a large random field I want the Edicts. The edicts are what keep you from taking as many random speed losses to Goblins, Faerie Stompy without CoF, Red Death, and Threshold itself.

As for Chainer's Edict, I say no. I'm well aware that you have a strong chance of being able to hit that seven mana in the game, but if you survived until seven mana, you probably won anyway. It's also worth noting that this is blue-based control, not black-based control, and there's an important difference in the functionality of the two and thereby which Edict is generally stronger. One of the biggest strengths Landstill has is not being forced to tap out during its own turn to cast but a very few spells (Standstill and Pernicious Deed). Let's look at some examples.

On turn two, they might have a medium threat on the board, let's say a Kird Ape. If you have Chainer's Edict, you have to commit to killing that Kird Ape and not having mana untapped for whatever they do next. During their turn, however, they might try to Rancor it, in which case you can Edict it in response. They also might drop something far scarier, like a Tarmogoyf or some scary enchantment (I'd say Survival of the Fittest, but I've never seen it and Kird Ape in the same deck, but you get my point.) In this case you might be glad you had your Counterspell magic open.

Similarly, most Standstills are broken during your opponent's turn, and that's also when you cast most of your Fact or Fictions. Midgame, this can be incredibly important that your edicts are instants. Not only will it let you solve the problem of hasted creatures and type-changing threats like Mishra's Factory or Chimeric Idol, it also lets you have your mana untapped for the next turn if need be.

There are hundreds of cases I can't think of right now due to lack of food where Diabolic being an instant has saved me games against more random things than I can count.

If you're dead sold on trying Chainer's, I suppose a 2/2 split wouldn't be bad and might actually improve your Threshold and Fish games since Mage would be all the more confused. I personally would rather have the more versatile card and the one that gives me the better shot at surviving the early game, though, which is Diabolic Edict.

EDIT: You could also cut to three Chainer's and use that extra slot for Crime//Punishment, counting on Chainer's occasionally doing double duty to up your virtual edict count. I think the deck would struggle a good bit more by losing that much instant speed power, though.

[honz]

Chainer's edict does not really see play because it's a sorcery. Diabolic (bieng an instant) has alot more going for it. Even though the flashback seems nice, the cost is really outragous; you are more conserned with activating your lands with that mana, or dropping FoFs, or reserving it for counters.

I see everyone going for the 4-color, or Ugw builds, and i wish someone could explain why. My build is Ubg, and i have been having good success with it. Here is my list:

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [OD] Island (2)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UL] Faerie Conclave
4 [U] Underground Sea
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Bayou

// Spells
2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [SC] Decree of Pain
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Counterspell
3 [SC] Stifle

4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

Now, the SB really is not the best it could be, however i am having trouble really finding one i like. With only running 3 colors, it supports shackles very nicely. Other than that, the SB is a little sketchy at the moment.

Haunting echoes has been golden for me. With constantly stifling, countering, and sweeping everything you can really put a dent into their deck's ability to do anything. Ghastly demise is also amazing; my graveyard can become pretty full pretty quick. I was forced to run edicts as well, because alot of people end up siding in Leyline and Tormod's crypt to counteract my crucibles, ruins, and ghastly demises.

The only questionable card has been Decree of Pain. It really hasnt been as effective as i had hoped; i rarely even play/cycle it. I have considered another edict, or maybe a damnation in this spot...

I think Ubg has the most to offer here. I have never really missed StP, which is one big reason for a white splash. Once in a while, i will have trouble finding a man-land, which is the reason for the lone conclave. I fail to see what white has to offer that bg lack, but maybe i am missing something...

I imagine the 4c builds have trouble finding UU for a counterspell (my 3c build has trouble sometimes), has anyone tried Mana Leak or Rune Snag in that spot? Both almost always counter anything worth countering...just a thought.

[Tacosnape]

Ghastly demise is also amazing; my graveyard can become pretty full pretty quick. I was forced to run edicts as well, because alot of people end up siding in Leyline and Tormod's crypt to counteract my crucibles, ruins, and ghastly demises.

I think Ubg has the most to offer here. I have never really missed StP, which is one big reason for a white splash. Once in a while, i will have trouble finding a man-land, which is the reason for the lone conclave. I fail to see what white has to offer that bg lack, but maybe i am missing something...

I imagine the 4c builds have trouble finding UU for a counterspell (my 3c build has trouble sometimes), has anyone tried Mana Leak or Rune Snag in that spot? Both almost always counter anything worth countering...just a thought.

Ghastly Demise has a problem that Swords to Plowshares doesn't. The biggest advantage of running STP, other than the fact that it's the best creature removal spell ever made, is that it allows you to on the play to nail any creature they drop EOT to pave way for an easy turn 2 Standstill. Ghastly demise needs there to be a fetchland and for the threat to have toughness 1 or less. Otherwise you're relying on a Force or a Factory to gain Standstill advantage here.

The three big reasons you run white are Swords to Plowshares, Nantuko Monestary, and Meddling Mage (For me, also Orim's Chant and Crime.) Mage is a godsend in the board, and STP is, as said, the best creature removal spell ever made. Monestary is just an enormous loveable ogre that takes down almost everything in the format.

As for finding UU for a Counterspell? My 4C Landstill deck does it better than your 3C one does.

Your Blue Sources:
2 [OD] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UL] Faerie Conclave
4 [u] Underground Sea
3 [R] Tropical Island

Total: 16.

My Blue Sources:
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Total: 18.

UGB Certainly has advantages, don't get me wrong. I think it's the strongest of the 3-color builds (Which is amusing, because I think UW is the strongest 2-color build.) You still have Deed, which is solid. But I'd miss the sheer power of Mage, Monestary, and STP. That's what I think makes 4C stronger.

[Solpugid]

I don't run white for StP as much as for nantuko monastery. Having the additional win conditions, imo, is extremely important. I played against an angel stompy deck the other day and had 4 manlands removed from the game with his swords. If I didn't have more ways to kill him, I would have definitely lost that game.

[Nightmare]

UGB Certainly has advantages, don't get me wrong. I think it's the strongest of the 3-color builds (Which is amusing, because I think UW is the strongest 2-color build.) You still have Deed, which is solid. But I'd miss the sheer power of Mage, Monestary, and STP. That's what I think makes 4C stronger.It seems to me that UWg would be the strongest 3c combination, if you're concerned with losing Mage, Monastery, and StP. I've tested out most combinations at this point, and I still think UWg is incredible. You lose Deed (but retain EE), Plague (but Gain reliable WW for Wrath and Humility), and get a much more stable manabase (I run 5 basics in my build, which is more than I ran in 2005). It's almost impossible for Goblins to shut me off from a color, which is something I'm always concerned with when playing 4c.

[honz]

The monestaries are a big loss, i know that. However, faerie conclave is an acceptable substitute (no it isn't as good, but it's better than nothing). The last list i saw was running 6 man-lands, and i am running 5; not a huge difference.

The crucibles have been iffy, especially after removing the wastelands (which has done wonders for the deck). Also ghastly demise is not as good as StP, obviously. It also doesnt have alot of turn 1 power, however it does fine after about turn 3. You really dump alot into your graveyard.

It is important to note, that Haunting Echoes serves as a sort of pseudo win condition. So many decks are reliant on certain cards that it becomes nearly impossible to win without them. If you resolve an echoes on a graveyard of 10+, my opponent has conceeded every time.

What games does mage come in for you? Combo is already an easy MU, so loosing mage does litte there. Would you bring it in against Aether Vial? where has mage really earned its spot, because i don't see it earning a white splash by itself?

[alakar]

Good examples. I haven’t even though of opposing factories, as I am still used to playing with wasteland. I see where your going with the Kird Ape example, as you net a 2 for 1. However, how crucial is instant speed edicts in the goblin match? I mean, if you play first, and they drop a lackey on there turn, is it not just as productive to kill it with a sorcery? I mean, your going to edict it anyway, and probably in response to another creature coming in to play, and still tapping out when they cast the next threat. I guess Diabolic would also be better against Affinity. I always seem to be able to generate double black when the flashback becomes relevant, of course, tapping down is an issue. I might try a 2/2 spilt, or a 3/1 split with Diabolic being the 3 of. I like the utility of being able to play spells out of my graveyard.



You have a point about the Pithing Needles. I might just be overly paranoid. My finals match in the GPT was against a Trinket Mage deck, so I tend to view multiple Needles as a problem. I guess if need be I could always counter the Needles.


How have the Chants and the Extirpates in the board been working? They seem like a good alternative to duress, serving double duty in the Loam matches (Extirpate).

[Tacosnape]

It seems to me that UWg would be the strongest 3c combination, if you're concerned with losing Mage, Monastery, and StP. I've tested out most combinations at this point, and I still think UWg is incredible. You lose Deed (but retain EE), Plague (but Gain reliable WW for Wrath and Humility), and get a much more stable manabase (I run 5 basics in my build, which is more than I ran in 2005). It's almost impossible for Goblins to shut me off from a color, which is something I'm always concerned with when playing 4c.

This is workable also. I just don't think you gain a whole lot from dropping a color only to need double white. Besides, Wrath and Humility don't do the other crucial thing Deed does: Take care of problematic artifacts and enchantments.


The monestaries are a big loss, i know that. However, faerie conclave is an acceptable substitute (no it isn't as good, but it's better than nothing). The last list i saw was running 6 man-lands, and i am running 5; not a huge difference.

Quantity isn't the problem. Quality is the problem. Conclave can't block something and live, ever. Manland blocking is vitally important, as it's what forces opponents to extend into 2-3 threats for a Deed. Factory and Monestary can do this all day long.


It is important to note, that Haunting Echoes serves as a sort of pseudo win condition. So many decks are reliant on certain cards that it becomes nearly impossible to win without them. If you resolve an echoes on a graveyard of 10+, my opponent has conceeded every time.

Echoes is solid in 2-3 color Landstill with Black. I have no qualms with you here.


What games does mage come in for you? Combo is already an easy MU, so loosing mage does litte there. Would you bring it in against Aether Vial? where has mage really earned its spot, because i don't see it earning a white splash by itself?

Combo isn't as easy as you think due to your lack of a clock. Many combo decks can rebound. Solidarity, for example, is all but an auto-loss without Mage. Mage provides that clock. It's at least partially effective against every combo deck in existence.

Mage helps you deal with a few problem cards, also. It can name Dread Return against Bridge. It can name Loam or Burning Wish against Loam Control. It can even name Krosan Grip to help assure Plague lock against Goblins.

Mage also shines when you're 1-1 against a favored match and there's not much time left on the clock. I've won games in less than 6 minutes by going aggro with the Mage before.


Good examples. I haven’t even though of opposing factories, as I am still used to playing with wasteland. I see where your going with the Kird Ape example, as you net a 2 for 1. However, how crucial is instant speed edicts in the goblin match?

How have the Chants and the Extirpates in the board been working? They seem like a good alternative to duress, serving double duty in the Loam matches (Extirpate).

Diabolic Edict is at its absolute best versus Chainer's against Goblins. Goblins has a ton of haste, and Diabolic is at its finest here.

Chant works great as a 2-of. I didn't have enough white to make use of more than 1-2 chants in hand (I had three in hand against Solidarity and only one Tundra.)

Extirpate is a card I'd love to have three of, but I think two is sufficient. Its prime target is Life from the Loam, but it has uses against Survival and in the Landstill mirror, too. (You can steal a lot of games by Extirpating Factory and/or Wasteland)

[Anarky87]

White is huge in that you gain the best pinpoint removal in the friggin game, and Monastery which is just a monster. I was able to win the round after going to time in Columbus just because I was beating for 4 each turn, countering any blockers they played. Not something I could have done with Factory alone.

Diabolic Edict is an Instant. End of story right there. It lets you make awesome plays like Brainstorm/FoF > Edict > Cast Edict. Tapping out main phase to play something that's not Standstill or Deed is just bad. You always want mana up to have responses.

I've been liking the 2 Loams, having cut the 4th Stifle. Extirpate is fantastic against Loam and especially awesome against the mirror. I was playing 3 in the SB of my UWb list and along with Haunting Echoes, you can just dominate the mirror or Loam based control. I'm gonna continue to test this deck, and I'll be taking it to a local tournament this month on the 24th, which I've been wanting to attend another tournament for testing.

[Solpugid]

I've been really wanting to go down to 2 stiflles also, using the freed slot for another loam/crucible. However, I do think the deck would be getting close to the cut-off point for minimum number of blue spells to support FoW. I played a match today where my opponent cracked a standstill for a lethal burn spell to the head. I topdecked land, swords, edict and lost the game.

And yes, I know I could swords my own land, but I only had one white left since I had attacked with monastery the turn before. And there was no factory in sight. God, I hate burn decks.

[honz]

How has LftL been working out for you guys? in my limited testing it has been completely hated out. Even when i ran crucibles (no LftL at all), people would SB in leylines and extirpates against me, to counteract my crucible, ghastly demise, and acadamy ruins (total of 5 cards...). I also got my factories extirpated once, which really hurt (i lost that game). If i added LftL, i could only imagine the amount of hate i would see, as so many people already run leylines in the SB.

So is burn an auto-loose here? my strategy has been counter like a mad-man and hope i stay alive long enough to cast a haunting echoes. Even then, i'm gonna have a tough time winning.

[Tacosnape]

How has LftL been working out for you guys? in my limited testing it has been completely hated out. Even when i ran crucibles (no LftL at all), people would SB in leylines and extirpates against me, to counteract my crucible, ghastly demise, and acadamy ruins (total of 5 cards...). I also got my factories extirpated once, which really hurt (i lost that game). If i added LftL, i could only imagine the amount of hate i would see, as so many people already run leylines in the SB.

There's nothing you can do about Extirpate except to Meddling Mage it or, ironically, Extirpate it. Regardless of whether you run Crucible or Loam (you shouldn't run both unless you 1/1 split,) Extirpate's a bitch either way. The bright side is Extirpate won't hit what you have in play and that you always have Crime//Punishment and Mage to assist with kills. Extirpate is probably the third most feared card for this deck. The second bright side is that a lot of people, even the good players, aren't smart enough to Extirpate Mishra's Factory. They seem to want to hit Force, Counter, Standstill, or even Stifle.

For reference, the five cards you least want to see with most builds of this deck are, in order:
1. Rishadan Port
2. Life From The Loam
3. Extirpate
4. Aether Vial
5. Blood Moon

Leyline is going to see a huge, huge drop in popularity. And Leyline isn't all that big of a problem, anyway. It's clunky to cast, and you don't really need Threshold that early against most decks, so you have plenty of time to clear it away with Pernicious Deed if it comes out on the opening draw. I don't even think Leyline is a good card to board in against 4C Landstill. I certainly wouldn't board it in if I was playing against it. It's not a threat and it's something Landstill can kill at its leisure while blowing up other shit.

However, the fact that you play Ghastly Demise exacerbates this problem a bit. Reason #20 why Swords to Plowshares >> Everything Else.


So is burn an auto-loose here? my strategy has been counter like a mad-man and hope i stay alive long enough to cast a haunting echoes. Even then, i'm gonna have a tough time winning.

I am 7-0 against Burn with Landstill. Not even kidding. I have to play against it at almost every tournament, and while I hate it more than any other deck in existence, I'm constantly amazed that I can beat it with Landstill. Obviously Burn will occasionally just be burn and just be like, "Zip, Thud, you lose." But it's actually favorable for me.

First off, having White here helps, tremendously. Swords to Plowshares on a factory can sometimes buy you exactly enough time to kill your opponent. It also stops random shit like Spark Elemental and Ball Lightning for burn variants that run it. Ditto for Diabolic Edict.

Meddling Mage always comes in on game 2 and 3. You name Price of Progress with it, always. If they kill the Mage, save a counter for Price of Progress, because it's in their hand. If they don't, they aren't holding Price of Progress. Pretty easy tech. Obviously the Blasts come in. Plague comes in if they run Sparky, Ball, or Mogg Fanatic.

Be vigilant with your counters. Your object is to run them out of gas. Do not counter 1 for 3 spells unless you have to. Do not counter Magma Jet, ever. Let them scry. Save your counters for the big shit, like Fireblast and Price of Progress, as well as the 3 damage shots once you've gotten your manabase set. Stifle can stop Rift Bolt's suspend trigger (And Seal of Fire if some janky burn deck runs that, which I doubt.)

Drop Standstills relentlessly and try to outdraw them. It's not uncommon to win the game with them having an empty hand and you still holding 5-6 cards with counters for backup.

[troopatroop]

I am 7-0 against Burn with Landstill. Not even kidding. I have to play against it at almost every tournament, and while I hate it more than any other deck in existence, I'm constantly amazed that I can beat it with Landstill. Obviously Burn will occasionally just be burn and just be like, "Zip, Thud, you lose." But it's actually favorable for me.

If you're facing that much burn in your metagame, I wouldn't leave home without 3 Pulse of the Fields and maybe Chill in the SB. Honestly that just sounds like alotta red to me.

[Tacosnape]

If you're facing that much burn in your metagame, I wouldn't leave home without 3 Pulse of the Fields and maybe Chill in the SB. Honestly that just sounds like alotta red to me.

I can't reliably cast Pulse of the Fields or I would. Besides, why fix what isn't broken?

[Tinefol]

You people seem to talk about how you'd cut stifle to 2.5 or even 2. While it may be justified for your metagame, I find this card simply godly and after a couple of games increased the amount to 4. Just recently it single-handedly saved my ass vs Stax.dec, because I stifled Smokestack for 2 twice in a row and that put me on upper edge by far. The other game I've triple stifled the early wasteland/crucible lock which let me to drop perdeed and deal with annoying thing. Not only that but it seems to find a use in almost every match up.

Overall, I just love the deck the way Tacosnape build it. Its just superb. Thanks for the effort you put in development.

[Tacosnape]

I think Stifle, in large part, much like Loam and Crime//Punishment, is a card you never seem to notice when you have exactly the correct amount of them. If you don't need them, it's a pain in the ass when they're in your hand. If you do need them, it's easy to just remember how you didn't have enough of them rather than the times it was just right.

Against Stax, hell yeah, I'd take 4 Stifles all day long. But against, say, Red Death? It's about as useful as a football bat. About all you can do is maybe Stifle a Mire or the Hypnotic Specter discard trigger.

Life from the Loam? Incredible in many matchups. But against UGW Threshold, it's pretty much this side of useless. Same with Crucible. They won't be killing your lands off. They'll needle them or remove them from the game.

Crime//Punishment? Awesome, versatile, yet absolute garbage against Storm combo.

I like three Stifles. I'm very happy with three. I've never wanted four, but I'm a little scared about going down to two.

I'd like two Loams, and in certain matchups 2 C//P's would be nice, but as of yet I don't want them bad enough to cut anything.

A lot of the Stifle, Loam, and C//P configurations have to do with personal preference and metagame. Hell, I shift a card in the deck every few weeks or so just to learn new things, and those three cards are the hardest ones to determine an exact correct amount of, if there's even such a thing.

EDIT:

Completely different topic, but I hate double-posting. I'm working on a Glass Cannon variant of the sideboard/deck for (hopefully) Goblin-light or Goblin-free Metagames. Right now, it's:

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Orim's Chant
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
1 Crime // Punishment

I might test it at a tournament tomorrow. I'll let you know if it's awesome or horrible. Could be either, sleepy as I am.

[mikekelley]

Further testing shows that I hate cabal pit. It's been dropped.

Academy Ruins is also unnecessary I think. I might drop the ruins and go to 2 EE, with the rise in warrens-based combo i've seen.

Not too sure what to replace the pit with though. I was thinking another dual, but I don't know which one.

Also, I can't consistently beat burn. Not that it's a big concern, but it's definatley a tough matchup.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Academy Ruins is also unnecessary I think. I might drop the ruins and go to 2 EE, with the rise in warrens-based combo i've seen.




I would only like Academy Ruins in my Landstill deck if I was packing Nevy's Disk to go along with it. Recurring Nevy's Disks is pretty cool, yet Disk is far too slow right now. I would agree in cutting Academy Ruins though. EE is really strong right now in my opinion. It hoses Warrens tokens, picks off Thresh creatures, and takes out Vials etc. I wouldn't mind seeing EE go up to 3, but I wouldn't be sure on what to cut for it. Perhaps 2 MD and one in the board?

[mikekelley]

I'm also running 4x Deed, so I don't (at this point) feel that 7 x-cost board sweepers are necessary. Hmm, time will tell. If only it was plausible to splash red for a few pyroclasms. Ner.

[Tacosnape]

Further testing shows that I hate cabal pit. It's been dropped.

Academy Ruins is also unnecessary I think. I might drop the ruins and go to 2 EE, with the rise in warrens-based combo i've seen.

Not too sure what to replace the pit with though. I was thinking another dual, but I don't know which one.

Congratulations. You've made the first step. Cute lands in Landstill are like an alcohol addiction, and you're on the road to recovery.

For the following, I'm going to assume that this is still your manabase:

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cabal Pit

And I'd tell you that the right replacement for Cabal Pit is a Tundra. White's the only splash color you need on turn one consistently.

If you cut the Academy Ruins for EE number 2, you're running at a dangerously low 23 lands. I'd be more apt to make it a 4th Underground Sea.

I assume the lone basic Island is to have Blue Elemental Blast available for Blood/Magus of the Moon?


Also, I can't consistently beat burn. Not that it's a big concern, but it's definatley a tough matchup.

There's always Circle of Protection: Red. It's not bad against goblins either, I'd theorize.

[mikekelley]

I was thinking tundra, to begin with. Also going up to 4 seas seems like a good idea. I have noticed some screws in the past. not fun times. I'll test the tundra and sea instead of their counterparts.

There is so much i'd love to do with this deck. There are too many options.

[The_Prince]

I'm testing the 4C Build from Tacosnape at the moment and I'm really happy with it. Thank you so much for your work.

After the unbanning of Replenish, I started running a lonely one in my list, however, I was rather disappointed with it, as it sometimes was plainly useless.

Currently, I'm testing Gifts Ungiven over FoF. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but most 5 card piles suck when I cast FoF and I therefore tried out Gifts. Sometimes it is quite promising, especially when you need Manlands as you can grab LftL and dredge it the next turn.

I really fell in love with Crime/Punishment and think about going to two. Hijacking Genesis is very much fun, as is stealing a Goyf after Deed.

[Tacosnape]

I'm glad you guys are liking 4C Landstill. Perhaps now that the manabase is decent more people will start realizing what a monster this deck is.

Another weekly tournament report for you guys. I tried out the Glass Cannon style board, ignoring the Goblin match completely (I thought there would be no Goblin decks at the tournament since it was small at only 8 players, although I was wrong, more on that in a second.) The board I came up with to run was:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Note that the only reason this board skipped the Extirpates was because A. I don't currently own them, and B. I didn't try to borrow them as the prominent Loam player wasn't there. Ah the beauty of small metagames. If I'd had the Exties, the Glass Cannon build would be packing 3-4. Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top was a complete impulse idea. Worked pretty well though.

Forgive me if this report is very brief, but I'm incredibly sleepy and can't remember much.

Round 1: Mike - Train Wreck
Game one I roll with Standstills and have plenty of removal and countermagic to handle Echoes and Helldozer. I board in 3 Mage, 3 Counterbalance, and 2 SDT, killing Stifle, Loam, and several 1 of's, as I know his Landstill plan involves lots of Extirpates. Game 2 he Duresses away my Standstill (And looks mighty confused at the Sensei's Divining Top in my hand), Extirpates Standstill (And sees Counterbalance, so much for sneaky ninja shit), and gets Plague on Assembly Worker. I get a Mage down on Extirpate, as well as Counterbalance/SDT. I counter about three removal attempts by Brainstorming a second Counterbalance or a Deed onto my library, then get Haunting Echoed down to almost nothing when my SDT reveals all land. Meddling Mage and pintsized Factories go the distance, though.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2: Josh - Faerie Stompy
I almost manage to lose game one due to him having a Mox/Tomb opening hand and me lacking a Force, and it gets scary when he drops Chalice for 2 and shuts me off two Standstills, a Counterspell, and an Edict. I brainstorm into a Pernicious Deed, sweep the board, and he can't get any more offense going. Game 2 he opens with Island, Needle. I Force, he Forces back, I groan as I've got two Deeds in my opening hand. Lovely. He follows with Chalice for 1, shutting off my Swords, and I drop a Standstill. He drops an Aquamoeba, which I can't kill even with my draw. But then I untap and somehow peel Crime and Punishment off the top of my library. Chalice goes byebye, and then Deeds eat the board. I don't let another Needle resolve and easily roll for the win.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3: Chase - BW Scepter Chant
He gets royally mana screwed. Both games. He also makes a few misplays based on it being a jillion degrees in the store. Not much else to report. Landstill rolls on.

3-0 (6-0)

Round 4: Crystal - Burn
If any of you want a way to completely shift Burn in your favor, Counterbalance/SDT is the way to do it. I lose game 1 despite doing just about every trick imaginable to buy time and try to mount an attack (Including Crime on a Mogg Fanatic,) but I finally succumb to a barrage of topdecks. In comes my entire 15 cards, out go Stifles, FOF's, Deeds, C//P, an Edict, a Swords, a Monestary, and a Loam. Game 2 I Mage on Price, Mage on Price again, Mage on Flamebreak, and have enough Blasts and countermagic for Mage Stompy to go the distance. Game 3 I get out SDT, Mage on Price, and then Counterbalance soon after. Crystal's never seen Counterbalance/SDT, and quickly concedes after Sensei's Divining Top finds its way on top of my library every time she tries a 1CC burn spell.

4-0 (8-1)

Semifinals: Crystal - Burn. Again.
I win game one this time thanks to chaining three Standstills, hitting a horde of countermagic, and Crystal topdecking land two turns in a row lategame. Game 2, Counterbalance/SDT gets going again, Mage names Price, and I roll.

Finals: Mike - Train Wreck. Again.
We split, as this is an insanely mentally exhausting match and it's 11:00 by this point.

So, yeah. Counterbalance made an interesting addition to the deck. There isn't room for it to be effective without sacrificing the Goblin match completely, as it blows in a land-heavy deck like Landstill without SDT and Brainstorm backing it up. I doubt I go back to it, but it was interesting and could be good in the right meta.

Anyway, the decks at the tournament turned out to be:

4C Landstill (4-0 swiss, win in semis, split finals)
Train Wreck (3-1 swiss, win in semis, split finals)
Goblins (2-2 swiss, I dodged it due to it starting 0-2)
Faerie Stompy (2-2 swiss, loss in semis to Train Wreck)
Solidarity (0-2 swiss, drop)
Suicide Black (2-2 swiss)
Burn (2-2 swiss, loss in semis to 4C Landstill)
B/W Scepter Chant (1-3 swiss)

[Tinefol]

Tacosnape
If you were to face RW Rifter what would your s/b and gameplan be, either of your sideboard variants?
Having played vs Rifter recently, my experience was that your only chance to win is deck them, as both decks are good at nailing each others win conditions. But I was unable to do so, as he always sneaked something when I run out of answers.

[mikekelley]

This is one of those matchups where I enjoy my MD Krosan Grips.

[Anarky87]

Tacosnape
If you were to face RW Rifter what would your s/b and gameplan be, either of your sideboard variants?
Having played vs Rifter recently, my experience was that your only chance to win is deck them, as both decks are good at nailing each others win conditions. But I was unable to do so, as he always sneaked something when I run out of answers.

The gameplan I think would be to Stifle their Decrees, counter/Deed the Rifts, and swords their Dragons. Humility isn't even a concern. I don't think this match up would be that difficult. Post-board you could put Plague on Soldiers, and then just work on keeping them off Rifts and Dragons. Swords is their only removal you should worry about.

Congrats on your split, Taco, and that was definitely an interesting SB.

[Tinefol]

Anarky87
and they can sword our win conditions too. Not to mention Humility does affect your manlands. And they can Slice&Dice them.
There's Akroma's Vengeace and Disenchant to deal with Plagues/Deeds

[MattH]

Anarky87
and they can sword our win conditions too. Not to mention Humility does affect your manlands. And they can Slice&Dice them.
There's Akroma's Vengeace and Disenchant to deal with Plagues/Deeds

Humility does not affect the manlands' size. I think might affect First Strike.

[Anarky87]

Anarky87
and they can sword our win conditions too. Not to mention Humility does affect your manlands. And they can Slice&Dice them.
There's Akroma's Vengeace and Disenchant to deal with Plagues/Deeds

No, Humility doesn't affect your manlands. But MattH might be right, it might remove the first strike from Monastery. Other than that, Swords is all you really care about, as I said in my previous post:


The gameplan I think would be to Stifle their Decrees, counter/Deed the Rifts, and swords their Dragons. Humility isn't even a concern. I don't think this match up would be that difficult. Post-board you could put Plague on Soldiers, and then just work on keeping them off Rifts and Dragons. Swords is their only removal you should worry about.

Vengeance costs 6 mana to use and really doesn't affect your board at all, and Disenchant doesn't matter all that much.

[honz]

For starters, congrats on the split Taco; especially with the "creative" SB. Stifle > scepter chant =)

I'm pretty sure man-lands become 1/1 with no abilities when humility is in play, because they ARE creatures...

I'm not so sure we should write off Nev's Disk so quickly. It is rare that i cast deed, and activate it the same turn, which means "comes into play tapped" isn't a huge factor. Also, considering disk destroys everything for 5 mana, it is ussually on a lower curve than deed (most the time i deed for 3). Not to mention, it is colorless, making it "easier" to cast. Although, in my testing of Taco's list, i almost never end up colorscrewed (except against land hate).

That is one problem i have been having with the 4c. Many decks run wasteland, and have become rather annoying. Even if i topdeck a stifle, 1 waste can be enough for a serious setback. Although, sometimes it isn't a big problem, and you can deal with it pretty easily. I advocate 2 crucibles/LftL, especially in the 4c, but maybe that is just me. By the way, have we come to a conclusion about crucible vrs loam, i have had better luck with crucible...?

Despite everyone going for the 4c list, I think the Ubg version is just as good. i guess it sacrafices a little speed for consistancy. I always find myself digging for a Haunting Echoes, and i always missed them when playing 4c. I never really missed StP, despite it being "the best removal spell in the game". Meddling mage was a big loss though, bigger than i had imagined. Monestaries were not as important as i had thought. It really takes a while to get thresh, and a 2mana activation is pretty expensive; by the time i utilize the monasteries, i am already winning, so i really haven't felt much of a difference without them. I'm continueing to test both...

[Anarky87]

I'm pretty sure man-lands become 1/1 with no abilities when humility is in play, because they ARE creatures...

From our own card rules forums:


This how it works with Humility and Factory:
Both Humility and Factory's power/toughness setting abilities would take place in layer 6b so they are applied in time stamp order. So whichever one happened most recently (humility coming into play or activating the factory would take precedence). So normally a factory would be a 2/2 that can't tap for mana or pump when a humility is in play and you turned it into a creature. The only time it would be a 1/1 is if humility came into play after factory was a creature and only for the duration of that turn, future activations would make it a 2/2.

Hence, Humility has no affect on Manlands.

[Tacosnape]

Tacosnape
If you were to face RW Rifter what would your s/b and gameplan be, either of your sideboard variants?
Having played vs Rifter recently, my experience was that your only chance to win is deck them, as both decks are good at nailing each others win conditions. But I was unable to do so, as he always sneaked something when I run out of answers.

I think Anarky's pretty much got the major concepts, here. And Humility doesn't affect the Monestary's First Strike, but it does affect the Mishra's Factory's ability to pump itself while it's a creature, as the activation of the creature isn't in itself granting the ability.

Anarky's pretty close, but there's a few other points you have to mention here.

1. Never play a Standstill, ever. Board them out after game one. I know from experience you can't ever be sure you're going to have the advantage there.

2. You don't always have to Stifle the Decree. Handling it with Pernicious Deed is also acceptable.

3. If you can, save Crime for a Lightning Rift. This is a completely ridiculous play and easily one of the coolest things I've ever Crimed.

You won't have much to counter game 1, so I suggest heavily that you save your counters for two spells and two spells only: Lightning Rift, and a hardcast Decree of Justice. Postboard Rifter can get mean, as they tend to pack Red blasts, Pulse of the Fields, and Boil. Your plan is as follows:

+3 Meddling Mage
+3 Blue Elemental Blast
+2 Extirpate

-4 Diabolic Edict
-4 Standstill

Meddling Mage comes in because Rifter will almost always board out its Humilities and Pyroclasms here. There isn't really a particular card you should always name with it, but I'd generally suggest Boil. If he gets killed, it's not a big deal. He mostly comes in so you don't lose to time and because the cards you board out absolutely suck.

Blue Elemental Blasts will counter Lightning Rift, Boil, and their Red Blasts.

Extirpate owns Rifter hardcore. Aim for Dragon first, Pulse of the Fields second, and Rift or Decree third.

And whatever the hell you do, if Rifter has four lands untapped, do not tap out EOT beyond your ability to safely counter Boil. I've watched countless players walk right into this while casting a Fact or Fiction. Boil is an instant, and you would do well to remember that most Boils resolve on the caster's end step due to carelessness. Don't forget you may need two counters for Boil, as they'll save their Blasts to try and make sure it gets through.

Rifter can be a tricky match as your card advantage is limited, so play smart and make the most of your Fact or Fictions. But 4C Landstill has all the tools to deal with Rifter's threats and then some.

EDIT: As far as removing your threats goes, Loam will fix this. Rifter only runs four Swords to your six-seven manlands, and you only need one to go the distance. If you get in a bind, counter a Swords. Mage can help some too.

I can't emphasize enough that you should almost never spend countermagic protecting your manlands. The only exceptions are if you know you're facing Extirpate (Or similar Graveyard hate), you're near being decked, or if you die immediately if you don't. The whole point of running Life from the Loam is that it's insurance and lets you spend all your countermagic dealing with their threats and not their answers.

[Tinefol]

Not like it means anything, but I just won the #magic-league trial with the deck:
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=34389&view=decks

The COP:Red in the s/b is the metagame tech and it worked out fine, as I faced double goblin (I lost both first games, only to steamroll them after the s/b), burn, and UGR Counterbalance/Top/Goyf. The deck was a beast.

[Tacosnape]

Not like it means anything, but I just won the #magic-league trial with the deck:
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=34389&view=decks

The COP:Red in the s/b is the metagame tech and it worked out fine, as I faced double goblin (I lost both first games, only to steamroll them after the s/b), burn, and UGR Counterbalance/Top/Goyf. The deck was a beast.

Freaking Sweet! Congratulations.

After viewing the decklists, I must agree COP: Red was a perfect call for that metagame. I've never seen so many freaking burn decks in a tournament in my life.

Were the quad Stifles worth it to you?

[Tinefol]

Absolutely! I'd have Ringleader/Matron/SiegeGang resolve anyday and be stifled than to have their abilties resolve and then use that fourth Diabolic Edict. Especially if I have Plague or COP running. And it certainly helps fight wasteland too.
Its about as useless as edict vs properly built burn, but at least its able to fight suspended rift bolts. As for UGR *****, it really wasn't much of a use, but it helped vs his fetches and just pitched to FoW. I guess it would have been useful vs top, but I never let it resolve. I had more removal than he had creatures anyway.

I'll just put a mini-report there:

Report.

Round 1. Bye

Round 2. Kaesh with mono red Goblins.
Game 1. He wins the die roll, I keep a questionable hand, but I don't know what he's playing so it seems okay. He starts with Mountain/Lackey, and I have to Stifle it next turn. He then attempts to play a Vial, but I counter it with topdecked FoW. I then drop Factory in attempt to defend against Lackey, he merely drops fanatic. I topdeck StP and then lay a fetch. Next turn he drops Port (omg) and attacks with lackey. I activate factory just to have him use port and then play StP. The next few turns He swings with fanatic, I counter warchief, he drops Gempalm Incenerator, then I play Perdeed, he drops another Incenerator and I'm forced to crack it eot, as my life points are getting low. I cast another PerDeed. Next turn he plays Matron for Warchief (I've got no counters or stifle), tries to attack, but I StP Warchief. And its about the point where I get almost defenseless. He swings with Matron, then plays lackey. I have no answers and i'm forced to sac perdeed EOT again. I play Standstill, next turn he plays SiegeGang, I topdeck PerDeed off Standstill, have no counters, I'm at five life, and next turn I'm forced to use PerDeed to kill tokens. He then plays Pyromancer, attacks with SiegeGang, and its GG.
Game2. -4 Standstill (I never find it that useful in goblin matchup) -2 Counterspell -1 Fact -1 Stifle / +3 BEB, +3Plague +2 COP:Red

I kick off FoWing his vial off wasteland, then stifling his second wasteland. He then used first wasteland, leaving me one land and him with nothing. I then play a land, next turn he casts Lackey off Mountain, but I had the Plague ready for it. A few turns we were topdecking, he was stuck on 2 lands, attempted to cast Piledriver, but I met it with Edict. Next turn I dropped Monastery, EOT casted Fact or Fiction to reveal Brainstorm/Loam/COP:Red/StP/Tundra. He then conceded.

Game3. He gets a bad draw and mulligans to 5. Then leads with lackey. I StP it on my turn. He then casts Vial. Turn later I drop the Plague. He's stuck on one land, I drop Factory, cast PerDeed and blow it for vial. He only has one mountain in play and in a few turns eventually concedes as I beat him down with factory.

I think he's been a bit rushing on conceding, but on other hand he's been mono red, and I just had the means to stall the game easily to the point there I can cast second plague.

Round 3. Aekhold with green splashed Goblins.
Game1. I win the die roll and lead with Tundra. He tries to wasteland it, but I Stifle. I proceed with factory, but he has another wasteland to follow. I use the mana to cast brainstorm, and my Tundra goes to grave. We lay fetch next turn, and then he gets third Wasteland, this time on Factory. I put another one, but I'm stuck on Factory and Underground sea, watching as he lays down mountains. He cats Warchief, but I edict it. Next turn I finally topdeck Tropical Island (my last land in that game) and cast PerDeed. He goes Warchief/Lackey on his turn and I just have to FoW Lackey. next turn he casts Ringleader, and I have no answers. I cast edict In reponse to get rid of warchief. He gets 3 cards off ringleader and swings. I'm down to 9 life. I don't have the mana to blow PerDeed, and I topdeck StP (I already have one). Lol. No Tundras/fetches for me. Next turn he drops Port (so I can't even block with Factory), casts another Ringleader, netting another 3 cards and I'm down to 5. I get another StP on topdeck. He swings for 4 again next turn, I'm down to 1 and he casts Fanatic to finish me off. How pitiful. I'm stuck with 3 StP in hand and Deed on board.

Game 2. Same S/B as the previous round. I'm not too fond of using Meddling Mage against Krosan Grip, it just seems a waste of space :-/ Really dunno. I go first and his lackey is met with BEB. I then lay down the factory, he puts another Mountain in play, but has no 1/2cc drops. I put down 2nd factory and start swinging. He misses 3rd land drop and then drops fanatic, but as I have two factories he can only block and point 1 in my face. Next turn he drops port, and casts Blood Moon. I'm scared for my life. I did never expect that. Luckily I have BEB to counter it. Pheewww. I realize I have no outs for Blood Moon except counters/PerDeed on table. So I attack with one Factory getting him down to 10 and leave and leave 5 mana open for pitchless FoW. He attempts to go for Warchief, but I counter it. I drop the Monastery and then attack with factories getting him down to 6 and then cast the topdecked PerDeed. He gets to draw and then concedes.

Game3. He starts with fanatic. Swings with it a few times, then tries to cast Matron which I Counterspell. I then drop PerDeed. He then casts Blood Moon. Ha ha. Well I have to blow it and here goes fanatic as well. He cats another Matron but I FoW it. A turn later I StP Piledriver and then drop Plague. Then he tries to cast Kiki Jiki but I BEB it. Next turn he casts Siege Gang and I let it (1/1 for 5 mana is not that good I hear ^_^) and cast Fact or Fiction which nets me COP:Red and Land after split. I really need to start beat him down now, but I just don't have my man lands. In a few next turns I countrspell matron, Edict his SiegeGang and topdeck factory which gets ported down each turn anyway. I StP another SiegeGang, finally get another factory and start swinging for 3 each turn (as he attempts to tap down one factory - I use it to pump another). He gets wasteland, but I already have loam, so that slows me down for one turn. Next few turns I stifle his ringleader, he uses it to block factory further delaying me, but I still have factory going. He's down to 7 and I stifle another Matron. He's down to 4 and tries Warchief but I StP it. Next turn he tries ringleader again, but I cast Fact or Fiction in response which nets me BEB and I counter Ringleader. Swing with factory 2 more times and here's the win. At this points I'm down to like 9 cards in library, and I still haven't found the second Plague or Monasteries. Glad he has not found Blood Moons or Krosan Grips though.

Round 4. Phyrexian with mono red Burn.
Game1. I win the die roll and get the very bad hand at stopping burn. Long story short, as its mostly boring, he gets me down to 5 life points, while I start to swing with two factories. At that point I let resolve Flamebreak dropping me to 2, then counter FiBEBlast with FoW. Down to 1. Jeez. He needs any burn spell to finish me off. Surprisingly he topdecks 2 mountains in a row and that's just as enough for me to finish him with factories.

Game2. -4 Perdeed -3 Edicts, -4Stifle / +3Meddling Mage, +3 COP:Red +3 BEB +2Extirpate. He lays down Pithing Needle for Factory first turn. Haha! I got a nice draw with Mage, BEB, Still, COP:Red, so I drop Circle of Protection and then start swinging with Meddling Mage. At some point he casts Flames of the Blood Hand, but I Extirpate it EOT, so I'm safe with my COP:Red now. I get him down to 8 before he eventually decides to get rid of Mage. I then drop Monastery and attempt to swing with it. He tries to FiBEBlast it, I BEB it, he FiBEBlasts again and I FoW it, and he's stuck on 1 land, 4 life, 3 cards in hand and concedes. He shows me these cards, and these appear to be 3 Ball Lightnings. Haha.

Round 5. georgjorge with UGR Threshold/Top/Balance
Game 1. We merely lay lands first 2 turns, then I cast Standstill, he Brainstorms, then FoWs it, I FoW back and it sticks. He tries to cast Top next turn, I break Standstill and FoW it. He then casts Tarmogoyf which I let to resolve, only to Edict it next turn. He then casts Mongoose which I Counterspell but he Dazes and it resolves. However I have Threshold by the time and start swinging with my monestary. he attempts to get Fledgling Dragon on table but I Counterspell it. Next turn I drop PerDeed and get him down to 8. Two more turns and its over.

Game2. -1 Stifle/+1 Extirpate. Probably should have sided more Extirpates instead of stifle (as its really not much of a use here), especially considering he has so limited amount of win conditions, but oh well. It worked as is. That one was the longest game in the whole trial and lasted for 40 minutes straight. I'm not really to go through all that, just a few notes: I had a good start with massive card drawing but was lacking win conditions for a while. I countered all his attempts to get top on board, extirpated it, StPed/Edicted all the creatures he tried to stick. On other hand he's got the chain of cantrips going and eventually passed me in cards drawn. He struggled a lot to get a single successful Counterbalance trigger all the game (out of like 10 attempts). At the point of me having about 25 cards in library and him nearly 15-20 I finally got factory and a little bit later Monastery. The end was epic. He had 2 tarmogoys on table, I've been at 7 life, and had no removal. I however thought I'd easily block him with Factory/Monastery and then recur them via Loam. Unfortunately he had Ancient Grudge and I lost both lands to it and was down to 2 life (he had 4 at the moment). So I really needed the topdeck. On my turn I got Fact or Fiction, he attempted to counterbalance it - FoW which netted me no removal, but a brainstorm. I got PerDeed off it and casted. He attempted to counterbalance after breaking his fetch, but failed again, revealing same FoW. And so his only remaining creatures were gone and he had none left in the library. At this point he had 6 cards in it, and I had 15 in mine.

[Tacosnape]

It's a shame you didn't get to Crime the Counterbalance. That'd have been hilarious.

Still, that's a bizarre metagame. And I think I'd have a hard time ever cutting a sideboard below four Mages. I like the third Extirpate though. I might work on having to squeeze that in.

[ReAnimated]

This saturday im goign to try out 4c Landstill with a side of

4x Meddling Mage
4x BEB
4x E.Plauge
3x Tormod's Crypt

and i made a change , i know this soudns crazy but i think 4 deeds is a bit much so i took out the 4th deed for a crucible i maybe wrong but i wanna test it out , i missed Crucible x.x

Ill post my results , Wish me luck ^^

[Tacosnape]

This saturday im goign to try out 4c Landstill with a side of

4x Meddling Mage
4x BEB
4x E.Plauge
3x Tormod's Crypt

and i made a change , i know this soudns crazy but i think 4 deeds is a bit much so i took out the 4th deed for a crucible i maybe wrong but i wanna test it out , i missed Crucible x.x

Ill post my results , Wish me luck ^^

Dear God, don't cut a Deed. Pernicious Deed is what makes this deck live. I'd cut just about anything short of Force and Brainstorm before cutting Deed.

Why Crypt over Extirpate?

[URABAHN]

This saturday im goign to try out 4c Landstill with a side of

4x Meddling Mage
4x BEB
4x E.Plauge
3x Tormod's Crypt

and i made a change , i know this soudns crazy but i think 4 deeds is a bit much so i took out the 4th deed for a crucible i maybe wrong but i wanna test it out , i missed Crucible x.x

Ill post my results , Wish me luck ^^

I am in complete agreement with Taco, don't cut Deed for anything!


Now we come to the heart of the deck. If anyone thinks this deck doesn't lean on Pernicious Deed like a cripple on crutches, stop kidding yourself and listen up. As I stated earlier, this deck was built to take advantage of Pernicious Deed in a format littered with cheap creatures and other permanents. Deed clears boards like no other card can, which is BHWC Landstill's most distinct advantage over other Landstill variants. Most games are based around managing the board until a Deed can be played to eliminate whatever the opponent has built up, and is one of this decks most important card advantage outlets. BHWC Landstill LOVES DEED. End of story.

I'd be careful with that sideboard for this weekend, too. Last week there were 3-4 Landstill decks, 0 Goblins, couple of *****, 1 Burn, 1 Empty the Slogger. Saturday's field will probably be similar, so I really don't think you need Crypt.

[Maveric78f]

About manlands and every thing is related to humility. Humility removes everything that is not included in the ability of animation. For instance, monastery will be 4/4 G/W with first strike but won't be able to generate mana. As well, conclave will be a 2/1 with flying blue creature unable to produce mana. The most important concerns the mishra factories that cannot boost themselves as they lose the ability to boost workers.

As for the deckbuilding, I have not followed deeply what has been said on this forum, so my apologies by advance if my build does not fit with your previous advises.

According to my experience (I don't pretend to be exhaustive); there are 2 ways to build a competitive landstill deck. Both are dominated with blue.

The first plays also a lot of white in order to build a hard lock on creature based decks with humility/moat. It does not play standstill as it does not really need CA. Actually, the deck is based on a lock. Then you fly over with your conclaves for the win. The problems of such a strategy :
- completely inefficient lock against creature-less decks and too slow kill to win in either way, even with the counterspell pack that such a deck allows (I play between 12 and 16 in this deck).
- some creature-based decks can still own you, with wonder or equipments placed on conclaves (it has been a time when FS played conclave and it was really awful to have to counterspell all their equipements)
- krosan grip has made this deck harder to maintain, even if dovescape is the last piece of the combo (and it's your only chance against combo decks).
- if your opponent plays wisely his set of wastelands faster than you, you won't be able to kill your opponent before the decks are empty.

Here is an example of such a deck, but it can be built in other ways.

// Lands
3 [P3] Island (2)
3 [P3] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tundra
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [UL] Faerie Conclave
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 |IA] Swords To Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [TE] Humility
4 [LG] Moat
1 [WL] Aura of Silence
3 [WL] Disrupt
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [DIS] Dovescape
2 [FD] Condescend
3 [VI] Impulse

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [A] Counterspell
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [WL] Disrupt
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [TE] Warmth
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [SC] Stabilizer
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory

The other possibility for landstill does not need white to perform. The only (but not the least) good card in white is STP (maybe meddling mage in SB too). It's based on standstill and FoF card advantage and mass removal such as deed and punishment. I play 1 tundra just to be able to play crime in case of. This deck is more classical and will find more adhesion here I guess.

// Lands
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [A] Swamp (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [U] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
2 [A] Island (1)
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Bayou
1 [A] Forest (2)

// Creatures
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [6E] Counterspell
3 [SH] Mana Leak
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [US] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [DIS] Loaming Shaman

[Tacosnape]

@Urabahn: Despite the fact that Nick Trudeau has almost no credibility left and that I disagree with him on almost every point about 4C Landstill, I have to fully agree here. The deck indeed lives and breathes Pernicious Deed.

@Maveric: You're more or less dead on. I would simplify it to say that there's two types of Landstill: Board-sweeping, and Board-locking. The former uses Disk and Deed and keeps everything but lands off the board. The latter will often try to use enchantments or artifacts to help control things.

This is also further fodder for the Crucible/Loam argument. I believe you play Loam in the Board-sweeping Landstills and Crucible in the board-locking.

[Nightmare]

I think that's an oversimplification. I also think both of those builds are pretty bad, but that's neither here nor there. Once again, for consideration, I'll post my most current build of Landstill:

EPIC UGW Landstill

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Horizon Canopy - I'm testing it. Usually is a Savannah.
2 Wasteland
2 Island
2 Plains

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Meta Slot - Decree of Justice/Mana Leak/Pulse of the Fields/Humility/EE

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Arcane Laboratory
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Tormod's Crypt

This list probably falls under the Lock style in the above, but it's more equipped to play Aggro-control than any list I've seen in the last 3 or so pages.

[Citrus-God]

I play Nightmare's list, but with oen difference: I dont run Brainstorm. I dont run Brainstorm because almost all the cards in Landstill function the same way, so whats the point of running a card that enables card quality when all the cards serve the same function anyway? Instead, I run more Fact or Fictions since the only things that matter to me are quantity.

I know RayD3 did this for awhile with some success, and I have been playing his Landstill build for a long time. Now I run UWg instead of his old UWr build, just because EE and Monasteries are ballin'. Thanks to EPIC, we have Humility maindecked, which already convinces me that it's better than the BHWC builds.


Here's my build for discussion since I already outlined my theory on not running Brainstorm...


// Lands 25
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Plains
2 Island


// Spells 35
4 Standstill
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives


// Sideboard 15
3 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle


I am a firm believer in the man plan, and of course, I would like to also talk about how fucking busted Chalice and the entire Anti-Combo plan is. The rest is standard, and so far, I have been very happy with the build.

[mustang8907]

Does anyone here have a link to a Landstill deck that wasnt 4c that made it top 8 at any of the gp or any other really big tournys??? I would truly like to see what lists the people that are actually winning are running, because what I have been seeing are the 4c landstill winning more. and before anyone on here starts bashing me for thinking that nick's version is the best right now. I have always felt that landstill can win with almost all the combinations that people have said on this forum. from 2c landstill to 4c landstill. I feel that a landstill deck wins only about 50% because of the deck build and the other 50% is the pilot. I have seen people play a landstill deck and get top 4 in my local tourny(averages about 20 a week with all big name decks) but that person would let someone borrow the deck and not make top 8 or even get close.

I know Taco has something against Nick and his 4c build, and he has always backed up his shit with actual info that is actually helpful to people in this forum. But I would like to see a list that made top 8, because I have tried many different versions of landstill and have felt that Nick's version was the best; it is versatile, has answers for anything and for any combinations, and he has found many cards which were not even thought of for landstill to be really good. I have always been a strong believer that landstill is a very hard to deck to master, and it needs a lot of practice and you need to just be the right kind of personality to play it. I know many people tell me that I should change my deck because the manabase is unstable, and then they always get mad because they seem to never be able to catch a break with all the disruption, threats and removal for them to handle. I guess what I'm trying to say is that what other builds have done really well in big name tournys to help prove that other versions are good right now Nick has brought landstill back in legacy and kept it alive and it seems that no one likes his build, well why havnt all of your builds worked???

Fixed some grammer and spelling. Please note to use proper grammar (capitalization being a priority) when posting. -Di

[Tacosnape]

i know taco has something against nick and his 4c build, and he has always backed up his shit with actual info that is actually helpful to people in this forum. but i would like to see a list that made top 8, because i have tried many different versions of landstill and have felt that nicks version was the best, it is versitile, has answers for anything and for any combinations, he has found many cards which were not even thought of for landstill to be really good. i have always been a strong believer that landstill is a very hard to deck to master. and it needs alot of practice and you need to just be the right kind of personality to play it. i know many people tell me that i should change my deck because the manabase is unstable, and then they always get mad because they seem to never be able to catch a break with all the disruption, threats and removal for them to handle. i guess what im trying to say is that what other builds have done really well in big name tournys to help prove that other versions are good right now nick has brought landstill back in legacy and kept it alive and it seems that no one likes his build, well why havnt all of your builds worked???

First off, I have nothing against Nick Trudeau. I've never met him and never talked to him and when he posted here, he seemed like a nice, intelligent guy. I think his Landstill build was problematic, personally, and I don't consider my 4C Landstill to even be the same deck as his, but I must admit seeing his list is what gave me the idea for Landstill with Standstill and Pernicious Deed and Monestary and Mage all in one package.

Now, Nick Trudeau was disqualified from Grand Prix Columbus for cheating. This loses him a lot of leverage. It raises the possibility that all his tournament results were achieved by cheating. Now, maybe he cheated on his 4C Landstill results and maybe he didn't. For all we know he might not have even truly meant to cheat at GP Columbus. We can't ever know for sure. I choose to believe he did, however, because cheaters are cheaters and do it whenever they think they can get away with it.

My build hasn't top 8'd at any major tournaments because it's never been run at any major tournaments. Ever. It just started catching on in the last couple weeks. The only tournament other than local jank that I'm aware of it being run at all on was the Magic League tourney, which Tinefol brilliantly meta-tweaked the sideboard for and T1'd. I don't know if it would win a Grand Prix or not. There's just no evidence at all because it's more or less a brand new deck short of Tinefol's mass face owning.

Nightmare, I believe, missed out on top 8 but did pretty good with his deck in the tournament he took it to. I think he got a difficult matchup along the way too. There was a report somewhere, but I'm too lazy to go look it up. I'll let him do it since it's his build.:cool:

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Duck Hunt's T8'd recently. That's U/B Landstill.

Nick's version sucks. BHWC Landstill never caught on because it had Stax's tendency to cost itself at least a match every tournament due to shitty hands. My build doesn't do that and doesn't suffer as a result. And if you look at some of the other lists, like Nightmare's, I doubt they do either.

[Joe Eigo]

Not like it means anything, but I just won the #magic-league trial with the deck:
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=34389&view=decks

The COP:Red in the s/b is the metagame tech and it worked out fine, as I faced double goblin (I lost both first games, only to steamroll them after the s/b), burn, and UGR Counterbalance/Top/Goyf. The deck was a beast.

That list looks like the only way this deck is playable atm. Really nice. I piloted an UGBW deck last weekend in a small local tournament and went worse then i should have (didn't play Legacy for over 2-3 months). But i even played a weaker list, with 3 Wasteland, 2 Crucible, 2 Faerie Conclave and just 1 Monastery (don't own more of them).
Dropping Wasteland is so obvious to me now, especially after realizing i never ever needed them. The environment is just too fast so you will be always the one under pressure. Wasting opponents lands and running into Daze or FoFing a turn later or even lacking that one mana which was needed to blow deed for the right number is just bad. And as some stated before, in lategame you dont even need the lock to win. Having Life from the loam is fine, for getting lands back and enabling threshold. That should be the way to go. The issue about laying down Crucible BEFORE Standstill is irrelevant imo, cause it just happens so rarely and seems like its a winmore situation.

My matchups were:

- Burn (2:1)
I think this matchup is a good one. You dont have that much dead cards as it looks on paper because Standstill nullifies this. Also Monasteries and Factoeries give Burn a good clock.
After boarding in BEB's and Duress (if you have) it should be hard loosing this. Price is a problem of course, but you have enough Counterspells for this problematic spell.

- w/r/b Aggro (1:1:1)

All i remember was that this deck had Vial, Jitte, Serra Avenger, Bolt, Helix, Confidant and Yixlid Jailer in it.

I think i lost the first game because i either did not find Deed or a Tropical/Sea to cast it. Last game was a draw, but i'd won this if i had like 1 minute more...

- Fish w Top/Balance (0:2)

I think i scooped too fast in the first game, because the card i'd next drawn was a Krosan Grip. But i already made some playmistakes before and he lucked a 2 CC spells from top at the right time, so i gave this to him.

In second a stupid Needle ended my dreams of beating this. I think i had Grip in hand but no black source to cast Deed (wasted), so i was locked down again.. with him dropping Tog and Jöt Grunt to finish me off.

- Empty the Slogger (0:2)

No chance in this game. I had everything in hand first game and second, but my mana was just laughing at me. Chalice to 1 + Simian Spirit Guide w Jitte and Blood Moon made me concede.

- w/r/b Rift (1:0)

The game is like this:

- STP his Dragons
- Deed away Rifts
- Stifle his Decrees
- Draw Manlands and win with those, which don't get STP'd


Well, this deck is a lot of fun to play. I think i'll give it one more try but make some changes to the prior build. Im still not sure about the SB. I don't really like Extirpate that much, but maybe it's too good to ignore.

[Maveric78f]

I like the list except that it would better play eternal witness instead of additionnal creature removal such as edict.

[Tinefol]

Not really, as it costs double G, its CMC of 3 limits it from being cast early game (you also have to have something meaningful in grave), it isn't 'instant', so it can't be cast EOT, and it doesn't actually rid the table of creatures like Warchief, Meddling Mage or Confidant, the list goes on.
Believe it, the only spells this deck has to cast on main phase is Standstill and Perdeed - mainly because these are enchantments.

[Tacosnape]

Not really, as it costs double G its CMC of 3 limit it from being cast early game (you also have to have something meaningful in grave), it isn't 'instant', so it can't be cast EOT, and it doesn't actually rid the table of creatures like Warchief, Meddling Mage or Confidant, the list goes on.
Believe it, the only spells this deck has to cast on main phase is Standstill and Perdeed - mainly because these are enchantments.

Tinefol's right. Witness might have a place in some 3-color Landstill builds, but certainly not in 4-Color. 4C Landstill should not ever ever ever run anything that requires two mana of the same color that aren't blue.

[blacklotus3636]

I`ve noticed most versions seem like they would have trouble with turn 1 warrens on the play(sometimes on the draw) and it seems like little is being done to address the problem(besides calling for its banning). So I tried to think of a solution to the problem while still making that solution a good maindeck inclusion for the deck. This was extremely difficult to do and I wish I could take credit for this idea but I got it from someone else on the brainstorming for a an answer to warrens forum. Here`s the decklist:

4 brainstorm
4 standstill
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 stifle
1 life from the loam
1 crucible of worlds
4 swords to plowshares
4 nevinyrrals disk
2 living wish/glittering wish (not exactly sure what this should be but I think its a step in the right direction)
4 crop rotation
1 tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 wasteland (not sure if crucible/loam waste is that good)
1 ancient ruins
3 nantuko monastery
4 mishra`s factory
4 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
4 tundra
4 tropical island
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth

First let me talk about crop rotation. Crop rotation gets you tabernacle, manlands, waste(if needed), ruins and can even fix mana if that happens to be a problem plus the sacrificed land can be brought back via loam/crucible or get threshold quicker.
I know the question on everyone`s mind is why there is no deed and it is because if you run crop rotation you no longer depend as heavily on a quick sweeper against things like goblins and other fast aggro plus you get to recur disk as many times you want via ruins. I know disk is slower but if you can survive to the mid game using crop rotation, plow and counters then disk is the superior choice. If deed goes then the need for black goes with it making for a much more stable manabase Given this is a huge change I`ll definately test this out before any permenant change is made. Please try to approach this portion with an open mind before flaming
Tabernacle is there for reasons already mentioned but it has uses against anything running creatures
The 1/1 split is mainly because of extirpate and since I feel there isn`t really anything wrong with doing a 1/1 split in this build then why not go for it
Urborg is there so that you can still use the extremely powerful black sideboard options such as plague and extirpate. So all that you really lose from dropping black is deed.
As for the wish spots they could really be almost anything in my opinion from gigapede to fact and I`m not sure 2 slots matter all that much but its something that is customizeable.
As a final word I really want to bring up the disk vs deed debate again. I think everyone recognizes that deed is faster but costs more and requires you to go to 4 colors while disk is a turn slower but makes for a more stable manabase and has more punch in the mid and late game thanks to ruins.

[Nightmare]

I`ve noticed most versions seem like they would have trouble with turn 1 warrens on the play(sometimes on the draw) and it seems like little is being done to address the problem(besides calling for its banning).


EPIC UGW Landstill

4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Meta Slot - EEWhat more do you want?

[blacklotus3636]

Force does almost nothing to a turn 1 warrens, stifle only stops warrens on the play, wrath doesn`t do anything to warrens until after your already dead and engineered explosives is not really that great a card maindeck against alot of things besides warrens. What I wanted was an answer to warrens that was still good maindeck against other things and I feel this is it. Crop rotation not only stops a turn 1 warrens on the play it also stops turn 1 lackey on the play and causes some issues for threshold and any deck trying to win with more than just a few creatures. It also fetches ruins which combined with disk means you are capable of blowing disk every turn if need be. I`m not saying this is the answer to warrens for landstill but I am saying that it seems to be the best one yet that allows you to run alot of maindeck hate for warrens while still being a good card in the deck for other matchups.

[Nightmare]

blah blah blah, crop rotation.Look, if your plan is to play the "you make suggestions and I say why they suck compared to my own suggestions" game, leave me out of it. What you asked for was a build that has less trouble with turn 1 EtW, on the play or draw. My build has very little trouble dealing with it. Between 3 Explosives MD (Which is, contrary to what you seem to believe, one of the best cards in the deck), 3 Wraths, 3 Stifles, and a set of Forces (which stop the Warrens from being set up - Obviously you don't force the Warrens themselves unless you need to buy a turn), I am generally not affraid of turn anything EtW.

By the way, Crop Rotation doesn't do anything to Lackey on the play unless you plan to run Maze of Ith. The issue there being, of course, you have to run Maze of Ith.

[Anarky87]

engineered explosives is not really that great a card maindeck against alot of things besides warrens. What I wanted was an answer to warrens that was still good maindeck against other things and I feel this is it.

How is EE not good against just about everything in the format?

EE @ 0:
EtW Tokens
Goblin Tokens
Soldier Tokens
Moxes
LED
Petal

EE @ 1:
Vial
Mongoose
Needle
Mother of Runes
Lackey
Rootwalla

EE @ 2:
Werebear
Tarmogoyf
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Serra Avenger
Jotun Grunt
Survival
Chalice at 1
Piledriver
Cranial Plating
Ravager
Pretty much all of Countersliver
Nantuko Shade
Rotting Giant
Wretch Anurid
Winter Orb
Argothian Enchantress
Umezawa's Jitte
Mongrel
Aquamoeba

EE @ 3:
Trinisphere
Tanglewire
Crucible
Matron
Warchief
Sharpshooter
Goblin King
Solitary Confinement
Enchantress's Presence
Ghostly Prison
Words of War
Sacred Mesa
Hypnotic Specter
Phyrexian Negator

And yeah, I could pretty much fucking be here all day listing cards in the format that EE is good against besides EtW. Landstill shouldn't have a hard time with EtW. Depending on your build, you should at least have some answers in hand before they go off and for after they drop an EtWs. I don't think you need to distort the deck to answer the card when it already has tools that do that PLUS that are already good against the format.

For the record, you can't disk every turn, being that it comes into play tapped. So if you disk, and they drop another creature, it's going to connect unless you're holding more removal. EE with Ruins can be played and activated every turn if need be. That's why I feel it better than Disk with Ruins.


allows you to run alot of maindeck hate for warrens while still being a good card in the deck for other matchups.Go read Engineered Explosives again. Then try it out.

[Nightmare]

Manlands

Go read Engineered Explosives again. Then try it out.Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, pot.

[Anarky87]

Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, pot.

Haha, go me and my mad card reading skills!! Didn't see that clause, thanks. I'll change that.

[mustang8907]

Last night, I went out with a bunch of ppl to a place called Tangiers to play cards and I took 2 of my decks. One deck being my version of aluren and my standstill(nick's version). but after spending half a day looking for taco;s version of 4c landstill, i took the extra cards to have his version too.
After playing a couple of rounds with my version, I found that I was drawing wasteland too many times and i didnt really need it. soo I decided to run tacos version and all of the little problems i was having seemed like it went out the door. It might have just been luck but it seemed like taco hit the right amount for the lands to fit the deck perfectly(sorry for bashin ya earlier) If anyone wants to run landstill, look for his decklist on here and try that, if your a decent pilot, his deck is the optimal build, and I will be taking his version to the local tourny tommorow and I will be back on here to give a report of it

here is the link to his list..........


@Reanimated: Sure.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island (+1 from previous)
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary (-1 from previous)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
1 Life From The Loam
1 Crime // Punishment

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Extirpate (+2 from previous)
2 Orim's Chant (+2 from previous)

I keep wanting to stick the second Loam back in, and I'd like a second Crime//Punishment, but I can't justify cutting anything for either one just yet. I also hate not having the third Monestary, but it sucks more to catch a pair of them in your first ten cards and lose due to bad mana. Especially when you're the guy making the argument that the deck doesn't have bad mana. Besides, Loam can dig for Monestary and Threshold simultaneously by playing and dredging if need be.

I assure you this build is worth trying over UWB. You can't imagine how incredibly amazing Pernicious Deed is compared to every other board sweeper in existence until you try it. (I think a large part of why I love this deck so much is that I get to play the two best multicolored cards ever printed in the same deck.) And Monestary is incredible hot sex when it comes to both blocking anything ever and swinging through almost anything.

[Solpugid]

@Anarky87

Two things. First, EE at 0 kills chalice at 0, 1, 2, 3, 4,...,16, etc. When chalice is in play X is considered zero (someone correct me if I'm wrong), so EE at 0 will destroy chalice no matter what it's set at.

Second, you can actually blow disk every turn with ruins. You just have to pop it during your upkeep, then put it on top of your deck before your draw step. You'll draw it, then you can play it, and pop it again next upkeep.

Sorry for nitpicking, but I thought those plays were rather important to note.

[Tacosnape]

Except that, you know, Academy Ruins sucks.

And for what it's worth, if you're running 3-Color, Engineered Explosives is awesome. The only reason I don't run them in 4-Color is because Crime//Punishment kills ETW tokens just as fast and has the additional bonus of being a secondary kill condition when needed.

[Anarky87]

@Anarky87
Second, you can actually blow disk every turn with ruins. You just have to pop it during your upkeep, then put it on top of your deck before your draw step. You'll draw it, then you can play it, and pop it again next upkeep.

Sorry for nitpicking, but I thought those plays were rather important to note.

No problem and I didn't even think of that. But at the same time, that's a 7 mana investment a turn, not including ever wanting to attack with Factory or what have you. 1 to blow disk, 2 to put it back on top, and 4 to play it again tapped. EE can do all that for like 2-3 mana, being that it's more flexible with Ruins. 2 at the end of their turn, then play it on your turn for 1-3 and blow it. In a 3c build, the most it would cost to play and activate in one turn is 5. Usually I set it at 1-2 and send the turn. EE+Ruins can be better spread out over several turns.

But yeah, I see you can blow it every turn, I stand corrected on that point. Thank you. :wink:

[Nightmare]

8 mana, really, if you consider the mana you lose from tapping the Acadamy Ruins for it's ability rather than mana. At that point, why aren't you swinging with Monestary and Factory to win?

[Tacosnape]

8 mana, really, if you consider the mana you lose from tapping the Acadamy Ruins for it's ability rather than mana. At that point, why aren't you swinging with Monestary and Factory to win?

Nightmare's completely right here. Landstill doesn't need a vast recurring loop of any sort, be it boardsweeper recursion or whatever, to win the majority of its games. It just draws into more of them with Standstills, Brainstorms, and Fact or Fictions.

Oh, and, btw Nightmare? That's the best member description ever.

[Anarky87]

The only complaint I have about the 4c Landstill is you get completely reamed by Port, which is a problem I don't have in the 3c build. I've lost games where I've had 8 damage on the board that was getting tapped down every turn while they just ran over me with beats. Deed, StP, Edict can handle their critters just fine, but it doesn't matter when they have all the time in the world to find more and play them while they keep you off attackers. B/x Aggro decks can be the same way, hitting me hard with discard and shredding my manabase with Wasteland, Sinkhole, or Vindicate, then beating me with a Negator or other hefty sized creature.

I've tried SB'ing Mages and Blasts, but the Mages usually get Incinerated or Fanatic'd and then they just run over me again. And I've been playing against Goblin opponents with varied green SB answers for Plague. So just dropping Mage on Grip is sometimes a whiff.

In my 3c build, I'm also running 2 Wastelands like Nightmare's. I feel that in the 3c version that 2 is just right and you end up seeing them usually when you need them. With those, you can kill off their ports and continue beating as before, whereas this isn't possible in the 4c, as it severely hampers your game plan. For the time being my team is going to continue testing 3c build alternatives, but keep the 4c build in mind.

[Tacosnape]

The only complaint I have about the 4c Landstill is you get completely reamed by Port, which is a problem I don't have in the 3c build. I've lost games where I've had 8 damage on the board that was getting tapped down every turn while they just ran over me with beats. Deed, StP, Edict can handle their critters just fine, but it doesn't matter when they have all the time in the world to find more and play them while they keep you off attackers. B/x Aggro decks can be the same way, hitting me hard with discard and shredding my manabase with Wasteland, Sinkhole, or Vindicate, then beating me with a Negator or other hefty sized creature.

I've tried SB'ing Mages and Blasts, but the Mages usually get Incinerated or Fanatic'd and then they just run over me again. And I've been playing against Goblin opponents with varied green SB answers for Plague. So just dropping Mage on Grip is sometimes a whiff.

Playing the Mage to stop Grip is tricky. For one thing, there are many situations in 4C Landstill vs. Goblins where it's not in your best interest to drop a Plague as soon as possible. This is a bizarre concept to grasp, but if you've stalled a bit, dropping a Deed first, then sweeping the board, is often the better play.

In large part, the reason for this is what you just described. You run risks dropping either Plague or Mage first. Ideally, you want to drop them in the same turn, as Vial Goblins will almost never pass a turn to you with 3 mana open for Grip. However, circumstances won't always allow you to do this due to Port keeping you off 5 mana or Goblins just being insanely fast.

Now here's the concept you are missing. It sounds absurd at first, but bear with me.

You should always drop the Plague first to protect the Mage unless they don't have a Port in play and you're reasonably sure they aren't holding one in their hand. This is because when you're in a Port trap, Meddling Mage is more important against Goblins than Engineered Plague is.

You aren't naming Krosan Grip with Mage to protect the Plagues themselves. You're naming Krosan Grip with Mage so that the Plagues will continue to protect the Mage.

You can't afford to ever play a Mage when chances are high he's going to die, unless you're in a board situation where your opponent is portless and you're sitting on manlands galore.

If they play Tranquil Domain, counter it if you can. You name Grip because it's the only answer to Grip your deck has. You've still got Force for Tranquil Domain.

[bigbear102]

@Taco: This may have been asked already, all i did was skim the last couple of pages, but why don't you play Duress in your build, main or board? It seems like the Extirpate/Chant slots would serve better as Duress. It gives you an extremely solid turn 1 play against combo, and makes any force + duress hand the shit. Keeping chant mana open for turn 2 seems bad when you want counterspell.

[Tacosnape]

@Taco: This may have been asked already, all i did was skim the last couple of pages, but why don't you play Duress in your build, main or board? It seems like the Extirpate/Chant slots would serve better as Duress. It gives you an extremely solid turn 1 play against combo, and makes any force + duress hand the shit. Keeping chant mana open for turn 2 seems bad when you want counterspell.

This is actually a very good question.

Well, first of all, Extirpate can't simply be replaced with Duress because it doesn't exist strictly for combo hate. In fact, it's actually stronger against other Control decks than against Combo decks. It gets rid of otherwise recurring Wastelands, Life from the Loam, certain kill conditions, and so forth. It simply has the added bonus of also being anywhere from decent to awesome against Combo depending on the combo deck. If you cut Extirpate you will not beat Life from the Loam control and you will struggle in Landstill mirrors. Extirpate is your graveyard hate. Extirpate cannot be cut.

So the real argument is just between Duress and Orim's Chant.

Landstill is by nature an almost entirely reactive deck. Now, as the inclusion of things like Meddling Mage proves, this in itself isn't enough to exclude Duress. However, in general, you want to keep your mana open whenever you aren't dropping something to disrupt their combo, like Mage, or something that's generally awesome like Standstill.

Decks with Empty the Warrens and Tendrils like TES can, on occasion, have almost completely Duress-proof hands. This is rare. Far more common are hands where you hit something with Duress, and then they immediately have around 8-10 cards they can lucky-topdeck, replace it, and win immediately. This situation does not happen if you're running Orim's Chant. They have to find a way to completely get around Orim's Chant, and a lot of storm combo decks aren't good at doing that.

You don't always want your two mana on turn two for Counterspell. Very often you'll hold it for a combination of Stifle and Orim's Chant. On turn three you may have a combination of Counterspell and Orim's Chant.

Now, Duress does have its nice points. For one, it has awesome synergy with Extirpate. For two, while I don't think any rational argument can be made that it's as good in this deck against combo as Chant is, Duress is unquestionably more versatile than Chant and can also assist you in various other matchups.

However, I don't feel like Duress belongs in this deck, and this is coming from extensive playtesting, as my sideboard started out with Duress and kept it for several months. It's also coming from someone who ranks Duress above any other black card in magic. So believe me when I say I'm not just dismissing Duress offhandedly.

I think a large reason for this is that Blue and Black largely do the same things in magic: Provide all-purpose disruption suites to every imaginable strategy. Blue does it through countermagic, Black does it through discard. Blue does it through being Reactive, Black does it through being proactive. Landstill is a blue deck with colors splashes. It is a highly reactive deck, and 4C Landstill is probably the most reactive build I can think of.

Also, for the most part, I don't feel like Duress handles many cards I can't deal with using Force, Counterspell, Stifle, or my other removal spells. The only spells I would want Duress against are Krosan Grip and Extirpate, and the main deck that runs Krosan Grip is Goblins and I don't want Duress against Goblins.

Lastly, against Empty the Warrens? On rare occasions (And by rare, I mean once ever), I used Chant with Kicker after grabbing two Tundras to buy me the turn I needed to live until I could drop a Plague. Won't happen much, especially since there's no way to chain a Kicked Chant into a Deed or Crime due to the manabase, but just tossing that out there.

Now, there also exists a third option: Running neither one.

Personally I've been currently trying a sideboard of:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
1 Stifle (With 3 maindecked)

As I have found that against every deck but a few that the Stifle is as strong as the Chant. Also, I was driven to try the third Extirpate as one Chant seemed pointless, and I liked how it worked in the control mirror. However, against certain matches, especially Solidarity, I missed Chant. So I'm not sure I'm quite ready to cut it and I'd say it's highly a metagame call.

I'd go so far as to say that 4 Mages, 4 Plagues, 3 BEB's, and 2 Extirpates are the "Core 13" of 4C Landstill, and that you can pretty much do whatever the hell you feel you need to do for your metagame with the last two. I've tried Stifles, Extirpates, Chants, Duresses, COP: Reds, extra Loams and C//P's, and even Serenities in Affinity/Stax metagames.

In a blind metagame, right now, I'd take the Chants though. I reserve the right to change my mind on this later.

[Melwis]

Ehm. Sorry for this "meaningless" posting, I might have something better to say later on. But right now I just got to know is it RIGHT HERE (where this post will be placed) that Landstill is being discussed and not in any of the links to all different builds of it in the first post (by Nigthmare)? Seems a bit stange since you cant really get yourself to read everything that has been discussed here and since im only interested in talking about one of the far so many variants of Landstill at the same time, it feels like it would be easier if the discussing about each deck were in each of the different deck links...anyways just wanted to know that im posting at the right place. Cheers.

[Anarky87]

Ehm. Sorry for this "meaningless" posting, I might have something better to say later on. But right now I just got to know is it RIGHT HERE (where this post will be placed) that Landstill is being discussed and not in any of the links to all different builds of it in the first post (by Nigthmare)? Seems a bit stange since you cant really get yourself to read everything that has been discussed here and since im only interested in talking about one of the far so many variants of Landstill at the same time, it feels like it would be easier if the discussing about each deck were in each of the different deck links...anyways just wanted to know that im posting at the right place. Cheers.

This forum is discussion about the deck Landstill. What colors to splash, what win conditions to play, etc. The links on the first page are more for historical reference in case you wanted to go back and read what had already been said about the different color splashes in their respected threads. But general discussion about Landstill is done in here. Hope that helps.

[Tacosnape]

This forum is discussion about the deck Landstill. What colors to splash, what win conditions to play, etc. The links on the first page are more for historical reference in case you wanted to go back and read what had already been said about the different color splashes in their respected threads. But general discussion about Landstill is done in here. Hope that helps.

While I can't speak for the administrators, I assume this is done in large part because Landstill, much like Survival, doesn't ever have one universally agreed upon build. There's at least 10 Landstill builds floating around and probably thrice as many Survival ones, making it difficult to have separate threads for all the different builds.

[Melwis]

This forum is discussion about the deck Landstill. What colors to splash, what win conditions to play, etc. The links on the first page are more for historical reference in case you wanted to go back and read what had already been said about the different color splashes in their respected threads. But general discussion about Landstill is done in here. Hope that helps.

Ok thanks then I know :)

Anyways I got some questions about cards to add/remove in Landstill so I guess ill just start to explain them:

Enlightened Tutor - This card just has to be good in a deck like Landstill. Right now I run a version of the 4c Landstill which ive also included 2 Engineered Explosives in. With Tutor im able to fetch either a Deed or a EE depending on the situation. Not to mention all of you which have Crucible in youre deck. And if thats not enough you can always go fetch a Standstill if you dont need any of youre sweepers at the time. Right now I use 1 of this card but if I had room for it I would easily run 2.

Fact or Fiction - The point of mentioning this card (even if it is insanely good at most times) wasnt to tell you to use it (you already do) but ive seen many of you going with 3 in youre deck. Now im not sure that is the right number for it, I myself run 2. The thing is that you rarely want (or have the time) to use a FoF right when youve got yourself 4 mana since you still got to establish more control by then. For me this card often have to wait before I can use it and therefore making 3 just to many. Also you really dont want to see this in your starting hand. Now, this isnt of perhaps to much importance but still, this deck is so tight when it comes to what cards in it so every card count is a big factor. So maybe swap out 1 FoF for Tutor which I mentioned before? :)

Engineered Explosives - Ive seen it get mentioned before and some of you run it and some of you dont. When I first started using it I only ran 1 but it struck me that this is atleast almost as good at removing Needle than Seal of Cleansing (and with the possibility of removing other things) which I ran back then so I ended up using 2 in my deck. Im not sure yet how good it really is but as I mentioned I use it mostly to feel a bit safer from Needle. Also when I added the second one I tought id try it together with 1 Academy Ruins which is a nice synergy if you ask me.

Life from the Loam - Well, I just have to agree with Taco and everything he's said about this card really. And I dont get why many of you is actually using Crucibles over it even when you run a card like Pernicious Deed...I mean cmon. Sure Crucibles is nice with Wasteland but since it is getting removed in more and more decks (especially those with Deed) you cant even benefit this which is perhaps the ONLY real advantage Crucible has over this card. And all of you saying that Crucible is better since it costs 3 mana and thats it. Well, Loam cost 2 mana and thats it. With the safe option that you CAN use it again but probably never will/have to. As mentioned before Loam is used max 2 times in most games and even if that costs you more mana you get to be alot safer than with Crucibles becuase you can always use it again if you need to. And with Crucibles also being an artifact that's much easy to target than Loam it just makes totally sence not to use it over it.

To sum this all up you could say that Loam > Crucibles all the time with a few exceptions:

- When not using Pernicious Deed
- When using Wasteland
- When not running Green (duh)

Well this was a couple of things I wanted to mention but there is porably more. Anyways this will do for now! ;)

PS: Btw maybe I should mention that im only playing casual games and therefore not using a real sideboard.

[Joe Eigo]

Fact or Fiction - ...


I'd stay at 3! 2 is not enough to make sure you draw it when you need it. And sometimes you need it badly, when you're running out of gas. Tutoring up your answers is not the way to go, since you run multiples and your draw will get the cards you need. Running a toolbox in main/side might change this.



Engineered Explosives - ...


I'm actually not sure which card is better for the deck. Crime Punishment is slower, but can't be stifled or needled and you just need bg+x on the table. Also having another winoption is very nice. Explosives on the other hand is faster and can be used instantly (and can be tutored up). Recurring Explosives with ARuins on the other hand in the 4-color build means 1 more land producing no relevant mana. Maybe another Monastery would be a better option.
Currently i run 4 PDeed, 1 Krosan Grip (Counterbalance is very present in my meta) and 1 Crime/Pun in the main.



Life from the Loam - ...

Just want to agree on this. If you drop Wastelands you go woth Loam or none of them at all. Loam is just there for random Manafixing, sometimes enabling threshold and make sure you dont loose due to having alls Mishra's and Monasteries burned away or something. It can't be countered or disenchanted. So in this case LftL > CoW.

[Melwis]

I'd stay at 3! 2 is not enough to make sure you draw it when you need it. And sometimes you need it badly, when you're running out of gas. Tutoring up your answers is not the way to go, since you run multiples and your draw will get the cards you need. Running a toolbox in main/side might change this.



I'm actually not sure which card is better for the deck. Crime Punishment is slower, but can't be stifled or needled and you just need bg+x on the table. Also having another winoption is very nice. Explosives on the other hand is faster and can be used instantly (and can be tutored up). Recurring Explosives with ARuins on the other hand in the 4-color build means 1 more land producing no relevant mana. Maybe another Monastery would be a better option.
Currently i run 4 PDeed, 1 Krosan Grip (Counterbalance is very present in my meta) and 1 Crime/Pun in the main.


Just want to agree on this. If you drop Wastelands you go woth Loam or none of them at all. Loam is just there for random Manafixing, sometimes enabling threshold and make sure you dont loose due to having alls Mishra's and Monasteries burned away or something. It can't be countered or disenchanted. So in this case LftL > CoW.

Well you got some good points of having 3 FoF in the deck alright but I still think im gonna stick with 2 MD. Since has you said you have alot of draw cards already in the deck you should be able to get a FoF somehwere around midgame, which is where your actually gonna use it. And once again FoF is not nice to have in your starting hand. So with this in mind I really think 2 is enough.

I guess you could go with Crime / Punishment instead of EE. This is more of personal taste if you ask me. You listed both good and bad things for both these cards. The only thing I dont fully agree with is that Needle is a problem for EE. Sure, it is. But the main reason for using EE in the deck IS to remove Needle. So if my opponent needles EE instead of Deed im not really crying :)

Btw I was planning on doing some minor changes in my deck, just wanna know if you think it sounds good:

-1 EE > +1 Putrefy (This is just to test if Putrefy could be a viable card)
-1 Stifle (Using 4 atm) > +1 Diabolic Edict (Using 2 atm)

The changes is to give me some more single creature removal spell which it felt I didnt have enough of. This is my deck with the changes:

Blue:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
2 Fact or Fiction

White:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor

Green:
1 Life from the Loam

Black:
3 Diabolic Edict

Gold:
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Putrefy

Artifact:
1 Engineered Explosives

Land:
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Nantuko Monastary
1 Academy Ruins

[zulander]

It also depends on your meta. If there's a lot of control where you live I'd put FoF's at 3, if you live in an aggro meta where a turn 4 spell won't matter I'd take one out and keep them at 2. Just my $0.02 though.