[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

[Nightmare]

The EPIC Storm (T.E.S.)
Created by Bryant Cook (Wastedlife), Developed with assistance from The E.P.I.C. Syndicate

The EPIC Storm (TES) is a Tendrils of Agony – based combo deck, which tries to play as close to Vintage Long as possible, without sacrificing stability for speed. It’s primary path to victory lies in casting Dark Ritual effects and Lion’s Eye Diamonds, enabling it to utilize Burning Wish or the Hellbent ability of Infernal Tutor to generate 9 storm before casting a lethal Tendrils. What separates this deck from other, similar Tendrils decks in Legacy, such as IGGy Pop, is TES’s 5 color manabase, allowing it to utilize the most powerful effects available in the cardpool. With the printing of the Coldsnap and Time Spiral sets, TES received a powerful accelerant and win condition, making red a dominant force in Storm combo. Embracing this development has allowed TES to go from a niche deck played by a few individuals, to a powerhouse in consistent combo, seeing multiple top 8’s in 50+ player events.

History

This story opens with a rather humble beginning. In August of 2006, Bryant Cook posted a thread discussing a creature-based Tendrils list, soon after the DCI removed the power-level errata on Priest of Gix. This deck, found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3948&highlight=shlong), used Trinket Mage as a mana-neutral tutor for Lion’s Eye Diamond, and Helm of Awakening or Second Sunrise to “go crazy” with LED and Priest of Gix mana. Combining the draw power of returning Chromatic Spheres with the tutoring power of Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, and Diabolic Intent, the deck had no small amount of paths to a lethal Tendrils. However, the instabilities of the deck became apparent over time. The creatures continued to under perform. Once they were removed, cards like Culling the Weak, Diabolic intent, and Second Sunrise became worse. A saving grace came in the form of Coldsnap.

Coldsnap brought an important inclusion to the deck, in Rite of Flame. Rite was a consistent replacement for the mediocre acceleration of Priest of Gix, who was only really good with two Helms of Awakening in play.

With the printing of Time Spiral, TES gained 2 new Storm weapons - Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens. Grapeshot was a secondary win condition, generally utilized to kill Fish-y creatures like Meddling Mage and True Believer before Tendrils won the game. It has fallen out of favor since the creatures pose less of a threat to modern builds. In Empty the Warrens, The EPIC Syndicate saw a serious threat to the most difficult matchups for the deck, the white/blue agro-control decks. With Empty the Warrens, you had the ability to raise the storm to a mere 3 or 4 before casting Warrens, allowing you to dump 8-10 Goblins in play. These decks have only a few spot removal spells available, and have an extremely difficult time finding an answer to this play when made early. Paired with the 2-3 turn clock, it improved this matchup immensely.

More recent innovations to the deck include the addition of Brainstorm, increasing the number of cards you see turn 1 as well as the stability of early kills; and Diminishing Returns in the maindeck and sideboard as a potential answer to the Stifle problem and a storm generator/card advantage spell.

The Decklist

Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tomb of Urami

Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm

Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Burning Wish
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Rite of Flame
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Brainstorm

Sideboard
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tranquility
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Earthquake / Rough//Tumble
SB: 1 Duress

Discussion of card Choices

Manabase – This manabase is a direct port of the GrimLong manabase from Vintage, adapted to the Legacy metagame. Originally it included Forbidden Orchard and Cabal Pit, which were replaced with Undiscovered Paradise once we came to the realization that the tokens do matter, and Meddling Mage wasn’t a significant problem anymore. The Tomb of Urami represents a threat that can be online turn 1 vs. decks that may not have the speed to deal with it, like Survival variants.

Rituals – 4 Dark Ritual, 4 LED, 4 Lotus Petal, 3 Cabal Ritual, and 3 Rite of Flame are a given. There has been some debate over whether the fourth Rite of Flame belongs in the Maindeck or Sideboard as a Burning Wish target. Generally speaking, using a Burning Wish – the most versatile tutor – on a Ritual effect is a weak play, as the second Rite of Flame is mana neutral, and only the third Rite generates mana. This is different than using a non-hellbent Infernal Tutor to find a second Rite, as that play both thins your deck, can shuffle a bad Brainstorm, and converts black mana to red. With no Rites in the graveyard it is a mana neutral play, and with any in the grave it generates mana.
Another debate for fast-mana is the number of Chrome Moxen. We believe you want to maximize your mana producing potential from Diminishing Returns, and so include the maximum number.

Tutors – 4 Burning Wish and 4 Infernal Tutor is possibly the strongest Tutor package ever allowed in constructed Magic, when paired with unrestricted Lion’s Eye Diamond. Even so, the threat density required another tutor. Plunge into Darkness wasn’t the first card that came to mind, but testing showed it to be an extremely strong choice. While the life loss can be an issue at times, situations occur where you utilize the second ability of the card, or entwine it. The fact that you can tutor for a type of card, rather than a specific card, enables you to Plunge for a smaller number, and makes it better than Spoils of the Vault. Maintaining card parity (rather, not losing your draw step, and putting the card in hand immediately) is important, and gives it an edge over Mystical Tutor. It’s instant speed allows it to be a setup card, played end step of the turn before you “go off.”

Wishboard – IGG, Tendrils, EtW, and Diminishing Returns are all integral combo pieces that can be used when needed. Tranquility is there specifically to deal with situations like a Solitary Confinement and Tranquil Grove, or more than a single Rule of Law, etc. Hull Breach deals with a single threat of that type, or multiple forms of hate such as Chalice of the Void at 0 or 1 plus Ivory Mask. Shattering Spree allows you to take down many artifacts at the same time, and is in multiples to allow you to sideboard some in if needed. Duress allows you additional protection if you know you need to fight through hate, or if you need to get a feel for what hate your opponent may throw at you. Earthquake and/or Rough//Tumble both allow you to take out opposing creature-based disruption while not interfering with your Xantid Swarms. While Boom can take out a Mystic Enforcer, Earthquake can potentially be used to win or draw the game.

Dark Confidant – Bob is utilized as a card advantage engine that hits for a Tendrils copy each turn he is left unchecked. Often coming in to replace the Xantid Swarms vs. non-permission opponents, he allows you to find the perfect hand to win, and makes winning easier at the same time. As often as he is sided in, people often ask why he isn’t maindeck to begin with. Simply put, he improves our marginal matchups into great ones, while Xantid Swarm makes our difficult matchups marginal. Both creatures die to basically every removal spell ever printed, but game 1 vs. an unknown opponent, the protection provided by Xantid is invaluable.

Why play TES, specifically over other Tendrils based combo?

TES, as said above, has 2 distinct advantages over other Tendrils based decks: Speed, and card selection. IGGy Pop is a turn 3-4 combo deck, as described by it’s creator, Mike Bomholt (bomholmm on TML, blarknob on MTS). TES is renowned by it’s ability to finish the game on turn 2 to turn 3 on average. This is congruent to the ability to generate a small storm count for Empty the Warrens on turn 1 or 2, and finish the game in 1 to 3 turns thereafter. TES’s full compliment of mana acceleration spells are responsible for this, allowing it to power out early threats ahead of most opponents. This deck can play “Do you have the Force of Will?” just as well as IGGy Pop, and when leading with turn 1 Xantid Swarm, can completely disregard the opponent entirely. This leads to the second point, card selection.
Even IGGy has come to the conclusion that more protection is needed by the combo decks in this format. Recent lists in the upper tables of large events show IGGy players splashing green for Xantid Swarm or white for Orim’s Chant. TES has had this protection built in from day 1, due to its relationship to Vintage GrimLong. Xantid Swarm has a distinct advantage over Orim’s Chant in TES, in being cast the turn before it wins. This conserves mana for the fundamental turn, and allows the disruption to be autonomous from the combo itself. This is something Orim’s Chant cannot do, and that Duress is only marginally good at. Aside from Xantid Swarm – which IGGy players are fully able to utilize, you gain an immense amount of benefit from access to red mana. Burning Wish is restricted in Vintage, as a direct correlation to LED, and their ability to pair together to find Yawgmoth’s Will. While we don’t have access to that spell (can you imagine how ridiculous this deck would be if we did?), we have access to an effective replacement in [Yawgmoth’s W]Ill-Gotten Gains, and an effective Timetwister in Diminishing Returns. IGGy’s graveyard dependency disallows it access to D-Returns, both for its recycling as well as its drawback, as IGGy has no ability to access the removed cards. If part of the IGG engine is removed, the ability to combo is severely hampered. This is not true of TES, as it has access post-removal, and has concentrated on removing the yard dependency that makes IGGy vulnerable.
Red also provides access to the second best Ritual effect in the deck, Rite of Flame. As discussed above, Rite can be as good or better than Dark Ritual when it comes to pure mana generation, and allows you the ability to concrete yourself in a two color combo. Without Rite, plays like Wish for Empty the Warrens would be significantly more difficult, as finding multiple sources of a non-black mana source would be much more difficult. Rite allows the deck to truly be a 2 color base with a splash for green and blue.
Empty the Warrens is probably the most significant card you gain access to by playing TES. This card allows a near infinite amount of versatility to the deck, by allowing it to play a more aggressive game with two win conditions that, while similar in nature, win the game in such different means that many decks have an extremely difficult time dealing with both at the same time. Often decks have a plan against Tendrils (True Believer, Children of Korlis, etc.), but fold to an early EtW. Other decks can handle EtW (Engineered Explosives, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, etc.) but have literally no game against Tendrils whatsoever. This disparity between win conditions is what sets TES head and shoulders above less versatile decks. The ability to choose which plan of attack you utilize is one of the most pertinent advantages TES has against decks that can neutralize one or the other.

Matchup Analysis vs. the “Big Three”

Threshold/Gro - (45%-55%) – Results vary with list and skill of opponent
Things to Consider:
- Do you have Xantid Swarm? If so play it as quickly as possible.
- Try and win as fast as possible.
- Does your hand have a Tendrils or Warrens?
- How are you winning? Are you using Diminishing Returns or Ill-Gotten Gains? Are you using Empty the Warrens or Tendrils?
- Do you have the double Tendrils option?
- How many turns do you have left?
- Keep in mind what Meddling Mage is chanting.
- Do they play a singleton Engineered Explosives?
- Do they play Stifle?
- Lastly, this is the most important question; can you read a bluff? Reading your opponent is HUGE when trying to figure if you’re brave enough to win on turn one or two.

Sideboarding
-3 Plunge into Darkness
-1 Cabal Ritual
+4 Dark Condifant

Solidarity (50%)
Things to Consider:
- Do you have Xantid Swarm? If so play it as quickly as possible.
- Try and win as fast as possible.
- Win before they get three islands.
- Do they have mana for Remand?
- Don’t be afraid to be aggressive. In this match-up you can afford to be since they don’t have Daze or Counterspell.
- Is your Empty the Warrens large enough to race Cunning Wish -> Echoing Truth?

Sideboarding
- None

Goblins (70%)
Things to Consider:
- Aim to keep a hand with more acceleration than tutors.
- If your hand generally has more than one piece of protection (Swarm) mulligan.
- Try and win as fast as possible
- If keeping a one land hand, be hesitant to play that land unless combo-ing out that turn.
- Chrome Mox is good in this match-up, as an un-disruptable mana source.

Sideboarding
-4 Xantid Swarm
+2 Dark Confidant
+2 Shattering Spree

Additional Reading

Old thread can be found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4612).
Combo Summer thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6037)
TES vs. Iggy Pop thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5157&highlight=TES)

Major Tournament reports from TES players:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=114411&postcount=1 - Bryant Cook's (Wastedlife) 1st place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=109979&postcount=393 - Florian Fischer's (Flod0) 1st place finish
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12244086&postcount=78 - Andrew Weinberger's (Andrew777) 1st place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5470 - Gnesotto Carlo's (Jegger) 2nd place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=103633&postcount=1 - Brandon Adams's (Emidln) 4th place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=111308&postcount=1 - Bryant Cook's (Wastedlife) 15th place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=111881&postcount=1 - Jesse Krieger's (Krieger) 16th place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...36&postcount=1 - Carl Wauer, Jr's (Carlos El Salvador) 2nd place finish


Articles discussing The EPIC Storm:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13782.html - By Chris Coppola (Machinus)
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14088.html- By Chris Coppola (Machinus)

Podcasts discussing The EPIC Storm:
http://feed.teamicbm.com/ - I@n Degraff of Vintage’s ICBM interviews Bryant Cook, creator of TES

[Bryant Cook]

Alright, where to begin? This article is here to teach you everything there is to know about The EPIC Storm. The EPIC Storm was created by me Bryant Cook, along with my team The EPIC Syndicate, as an attempt to make a valid storm based deck. The mechanic Storm was first printed in the set Scourge; storm copies the spell that is cast for how many spells are played before it that turn. You may be saying,”…And I care why?” You see certain cards with the mechanic storm can be used as win conditions - such as the win conditions Tendrils of Agony and Brain Freeze. When The EPIC Storm was created the only valid win condition for sorcery speed combo was Tendrils of Agony. This means you’d need a storm count of ten to kill someone with Tendrils of Agony. This is accomplished by playing zero casting cost artifacts, acceleration, and tutors. Innovation on The EPIC Storm really started with the release of Cold Snap and Time Spiral; these two sets gave The EPIC Storm the endurance it needed to survive with cards such as Rite of Flame and Empty the Warrens.

General History
One of the initial problems of The EPIC Storm was that reaching a storm count of ten was impossible with your 7 card hand; to solve this problem we knew we had a few options. Either A) Add draw to the deck, B) Add tutors to the deck or C) Add “Win now” cards to the deck (Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns). To help us we decided to utilize tutors, eventually we did all 3 options in separate time frames. The preliminary list of the deck contained only tutors. Although this solved the problem of reaching a storm count, then there were no “Bombs” or a real reason for tutors to be in the deck. With the addition of Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains the deck had strong tutor cards outside of Tendrils of Agony. Draw was added much later in the evolution of The EPIC Storm; the deck in its infancy went through millions of changes and cuts.

The deck ran different ways of producing mana until Cold Snap came out and the inclusion of Rite of Flame was added, making the deck even faster while freeing up slots in the main deck. With the ever exciting release of Cold Snap I was ecstatic along with other members of EPIC; this set gave The EPIC Storm the cards it needed to man handle the control match-up. With the Addition of Grapeshot the deck had a way around a troublesome card Meddling Mage, while gaining another win condition. Grapeshot was the card that shined out to me personally, then was cut later in time. Then Adam Barnello (Mr. Nightmare) of the EPIC Syndicate advised me to test Empty the Warrens. I was skeptical at first and then astonished; this card allows you do ridiculous things to the Threshold match-up while allowing you to combo out more easily. At this point in time there were debated slots in the deck and this is when draw option A was included with Brainstorm.

Choosing The EPIC Storm
“Why play The EPIC Storm?” It’s a logical question. I sure won’t pick up a deck without good reason. The EPIC storm has something that other combo decks just don’t have – no, not good-looks - but being both fast yet stable. Most combo decks trade one for the other or settle for a slower average win while having both. You’re probably still thinking “…And why do I care?” am I right? There’s one blistering fact about The EPIC Storm that separates it from the rest - its ability to not care about all the hate thrown at it. The deck can win through the million obstacles put in its way. I would list the millions of hate cards that people play but more than likely I would forget one and people will assume I lose to it so I won’t. However if the deck is piloted by a strong player the deck can fight through anything.

Many combo decks have to face the dreaded Meddling Mage, but with The EPIC Storm the Meddling Kids aren’t truly scary. The EPIC Storm has options that other storm based combo decks don’t have and one of them is simply winning with another card; between Tendrils of Agony AND Empty the Warrens, you should never have a problem with Meddling Mage. Another option is the multitalented card Burning Wish; you’ll Burning Wish for Earthquake/ Cave-In to deal with multiple chants from Mages.
Finally my reason to play The EPIC Storm is the fact it is challenging to play and I dislike decks that you can play on “Auto-Pilot.” This deck takes time and practice to learn how to play correctly and it can only increase your playskill. That may turn people/players away, but decks that require skill to play are generally thought provoking and complicated and if someone can’t handle it they shouldn’t have mounted the bull anyways. If you’re prepared to grab the bull by the horns and are ready for the long run continue reading.

The Deck List
The EPIC Storm

Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Plunge into Darkness
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Rite of Flame
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Brainstorm
2 Orim's Chant

Sideboard
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Cruel Bargain
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 2 Defense Grid

The Deck Breakdown

The Mana Base
Since The EPIC Storm is a four color deck it cannot run on dual lands which means we will need an alternative source of many colors of mana. Lands such as City of Brass, Gemstone Mine and Undiscovered Paradise are key factors to The EPIC Storm for their ability to produce any color of mana. “But why is more than one color important?” Well you see being able to cast first turn Xantid Swarm then second turn Plunge into Darkness is a key factor, this is one of many examples. Not being able to cast cards in the deck
Are ten lands really enough? Believe it or not ten lands is plenty with twelve artifact mana producing cards and eight ritual effects, and four Simian Spirit Guide. Ten lands works out perfectly.

Tutors and Draw
To play The EPIC Storm you must play tutors since the deck is (duh!) tutor based. This goes back the beginning with reaching that special storm number… what was it again? I believe it was ten. Let’s get onto the point. Tutors are what make this deck go round and without tutors that suit this deck, you’ll never reach a storm of ten. You need certain tutors for this deck because not all tutors work the same way as one another. Tutors such as Infernal Tutor synergize with other cards in your deck.

Infernal Tutor is one of the most synergistic cards in the deck as you may or may not know. The card has incredible synergy with Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, and Ill-Gotten Gains. Lion’s Eye Diamond let’s your Infernal Tutor have Hellbent. This is accomplished by putting Infernal Tutor on the stack and using Lion’s Eye Diamond to discard your hand. Rite of Flame is also savagely good with Infernal Tutor, finding another Rite of Flame to increase your mana and increasing storm count is never a bad idea. Infernal Tutor with Ill-Gotten Gains may not seem like a “Combo” or very synergistic to you but it’s the only tutor in the deck that can come back reliably with Ill-Gotten Gains without causing too much harm. You see Burning Wish removes it’s self from the game and Plunge into Darkness can be very risky.

Burning Wish may be the most powerful tutor of Legacy; I’m aware this is an opinion but the card has no drawback and is very powerful and versatile. The card allows broken turn one and two wins, while only increasing power in the middle to late game. It lets you access answers for problems that might occur with answers such as Shattering Spree, Earthquake/ Rough/tumble/ Cave-In, Duress, Goblin War Strike, Hull Breach and Empty the Warrens. While Burning Wish is not able to comeback with Ill-Gotten Gains it can however keep bringing back Ill-Gotten gains. This is important for ramping up your storm count; the more storm the better off you’ll be. The most tutored for cards off of Burning Wish are Diminishing Returns, Ill-Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony, and finally Empty the Warrens.

The most thought provoking card in this deck is Plunge into Darkness. This card is the most frequently mis-played cards in the deck for many reasons. People often don’t know when to cast Plunge into Darkness, or how much life to pay with Plunge. All of your questions will be answered AND you’ll learn how to play it correctly!

Plunge into Darkness has no one proper time to play it; it has many opportune times based on the hand you’re given. Here’s an example.

It’s turn one on the play; your opening hand consists of Chrome Mox, City of Brass, Rite of Flame, Plunge into Darkness, Forbidden Orchard, Ill-Gotten Gains and Infernal Tutor. You have a few options here when it comes to Plunge into Darkness.
Option A) Play a Land, pass the turn. Next turn play the other land, Plunge during their end step.
Option B) Play a Land, play Chrome Mox (Removing: X) then casting Plunge into Darkness during your opponent’s end step.
These two are the choices you’ll be deciding on, the question is “What’s more optimal?” Well Option A) is kind of slow, but is more stable While Option B) Lets you attempt to win turn two, and is slightly less stable. The correct choice is Option B) why though? With The EPIC Storm you will want to win as fast as possible if you have no idea what they’re playing. Now that you know one example, start practicing more and more until your arms get tired of shuffling. Practice makes perfect, don’t forget it.

Now for the never ending question, “How much life do I pay with Plunge?” I hope this finally answers your questions so that my migraine will go away. “Well… how much do I pay?” it’s a simple question with many complicated answers. To correctly understand how to play Plunge into Darkness you will need to know many things. First off, what is your opponent playing? What turn is it? What is my life total? Am I winning next turn or now? Is Burning Wish in my hand? Is there anything I don’t want removed? How much mana do I have and of what colors? Am I using Plunge into Darkness as a set-up card or tutor? Lastly do I have another Plunge into Darkness? These are the questions you will need to be asking yourself in that order if you want to play The EPIC Storm correctly.

If your opponent is playing Vial Goblins you generally pay less life than you would pay against Solidarity. This is because of goblins somewhat speedy starts. Goblins’ speedy starts are often irrelevant because The EPIC Storm is much faster, but slow hands do occur. Well, how much is “less life than against Solidarity?” There’s no answer for this because of what turn you are casting Plunge; if you are casting Plunge into Darkness as a set-up during the end step card of the goblin player’s turn one ask yourself, “Do I have another tutor in hand.” if no; you’ll be going anywhere for 8-10 depending on your life total, looking for a better tutor or a “Win now” card. If yes, is that tutor Burning Wish? You don’t want to remove too many cards from the game with Plunge into Darkness; you’ll end up removing important cards such as the “Big Five” which are Lion’s Eye Diamond, Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains. These cards are the most tutored for cards in the deck. You often don’t want to remove them from the game because you’ll need a Burning Wish to have access to them again. Keep track in your head what turn you will be combo-ing out. If you are casting Plunge into Darkness as a set-up card and you’re not winning on your next turn or turn one I’d recommend doing it for 3-4. Using Plunge into Darkness as a tutor is probably the easiest thing about the card since you are looking for a specific card or another tutor to find that card. Just remember what color mana is in your mana pool and be very wary of your life total. This applies for other match-ups also.

Against Solidarity you can generally Plunge into Darkness for as much as you’d like since they deal you zero damage. But don’t forget about the “Big Five” while doing it; you may be cursing yourself later if you go too far into your deck. I know this seems so short compared to the information given to you on goblins but most of the details I gave you cover most match-ups. Although during this match-up Xantid Swarm and Orim's Chant are relevant so casting Plunge into Darkness during your own turn would more than likely be more optimal.

When your opponent is playing Threshold you want to always play Plunge into Darkness during the end step as a set-up card. When you do, only pay 3-5 life; you rarely cast Plunge as a tutor against Thresh since if they make you fizzle you are more than likely going to lose. The same things listed under goblins all apply here, but now you have to worry about counter magic as well.

Brainstorm is a very different card when it is played in The EPIC Storm. Brainstorm’s ability to fix somewhat unplayable hands into turn two hands and its ability to be incredibly flexible is why it was chosen to be in The EPIC Storm. “When do I Brainstorm?” There are two opportune times to Brainstorm. Obviously one time is turn one; I mean C’mon who doesn’t want to see if they can win turn one? This changes if your opponent is playing swamps, discard is generally a bad match-up and you don’t want valued cards lost. The other opportune time to cast Brainstorm is with a Plunge into Darkness or a Burning Wish on the stack and then sacrificing Lion’s Eye Diamond. I don’t highly recommend trying to win off of Brainstorm and Lion’s Eye Diamonds. Not only is it terribly vulnerable but extremely risky.

Acceleration
Whether it’s Dark Ritual or High tide, acceleration is another key factor to any storm based deck. Without acceleration the deck cannot begin to “go off” so to speak, because you’ll be sitting there with a handful of dead cards. Cards such as Dark Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide, and Rite of Flame all have something in common. And what is that? Besides the fact that they’re all in this deck… It’s that they all produce more mana than their cost. They add mana to your mana pool so you can continue to ramp that storm count and continue casting spells. Dark Ritual is pretty much a given in this deck, but Simian Spirit Guide is a little bit different. Simian Spirt Guide only adds one mana at the costs of 0, "Why is that good?" it's basically another mana source instead of a 'Ritual' effect that reiably casts Rite of Flame. Rite of Flame is a little different than Dark Ritual or Rite of Flame because it messes up peoples math when it comes to combo-ing because it produces red mana and not black. Keep in mind that for each Rite of Flame in the graveyard, the card produces an additional red; the expression the more the merrier is actually true.

“This can’t be the only acceleration, can it?” You’re absolutely correct, there’s no way The EPIC Storm could possibly be consistent with only eight “Ritual” effects. We need something else; but what? “Artifact mana?” Exactly; With The EPIC Storm artifact mana is just as important as “Ritual” mana if not more important. Cards such as Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, and Chrome Mox are very crucial to The EPIC Storm because they are a free means of ramping up that storm count while producing mana.

The card Lion’s Eye Diamond is very tricky card with this deck, because it has the ability of being Black Lotus or the ability to lose you the game. “Well, which one is it?” It all depends on how you play your cards with Lion’s Eye Diamond. Many people forget about using Lion’s Eye Diamond properly and by this I mean many things. People often forget that you MUST sacrifice Lion’s Eye Diamond before passing priority you may be saying. In order to use Lion’s Eye Diamond you have to do it before your opponent gets a chance to have priority to do anything or your opportunity at winning that game was more than likely loss. “Well why can’t I do it after my opponent says it resolves?” Here is why: after both players pass priority, a spell resolves and priority isn’t passed back to you. This isn’t the only thing people mess up; many people forget that you can put more than one spell on the stack then use Lion’s Eye Diamond. Putting multiple spells on the stack and then using Lion’s Eye Diamond is the best way of squeezing the juice out of it. For example, you have a Burning Wish on the stack, Lion’s Eye Diamond on the stack and a red, four black mana and an untapped City of Brass. In hand is Plunge into Darkness, Brainstorm, and Diminishing Returns. To do this correctly before passing priority you must in response cast Plunge into Darkness, then respond with Brainstorm, respond to that by sacrificing Lion’s Eye Diamond. That gives you the best means of abusing Lion’s Eye Diamond, while the order of Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness may not matter but Burning Wish must be the first spell since it is a sorcery.

After Lion’s Eye Diamond there’s Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox. There’s not much to be said about Lotus Petal, but Chrome Mox has a few things to be said on it; if you ever have a hand of 3 or 4 Chrome Mox, mulligan. “Why Chrome Mox?” Chrome Mox’s inclusion was decided on the fact that this deck needs all the mana it can get. “Is the card disadvantage worth the one mana?” Actually yes it is; you see Chrome Mox requires you to remove a card. Chrome Mox is extremely helpful when trying to be Hellbent with Infernal Tutor when you don’t have a Lion’s Eye Diamond. “What if I imprint Xantid Swarm and can’t cast anything?” This is your own fault. I will say it again and again and people won’t listen, think before you act with this deck it will only help you. I’ve never gone to time in the round because I’ve had to think about a play - neither will you. Even if there is a Mox Emerald on the table you can still tap it for a green; meaning you play cards that have 1 before the black or red.

Protection
The EPIC Storm plays protection much like any other deck out there, but there’s something different about The EPIC Storm’s protection than most decks. The EPIC Storm plays protection that lasts through different effects. Cards like Duress and Cabal Therapy only take away cards from one hand; while cards such as Xantid Swarm and Orim's Chant allow you to go off completely unhindered. Cards like Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns changes the game state by giving both players completely new hands which those Duress’s and Therapies were completely wasted. With Xantid Swarm and Orim's Chant they can’t even cast any of the cards that were given to them by Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns. Duress in the sideboard is there to help protect your Orim's Chants resolving and keep your Xantid Swarms alive. Another option is Defense Grid but has proven to be weaker than these two so it is only in the sideboard.

Huge threats
You may be wondering, “What am I accelerating and Tutoring into?” You see every storm based deck needs a card to be better than others and win you the game. The EPIC Storm has several of these to make your life easier, they are; Diminishing Returns, Ill-Gotten Gains, Empty the Warrens and last and foremost Tendrils of Agony. Why are these important? Without a way to gain a massive storm count by either Diminishing Returns or Ill-Gotten Gains combo-ing out in the early turns would be incredibly harder; making the deck less consistent.

Let’s first start out with Diminishing Returns. Legacy’s Time Twister has an amazing level of power that is indescribable but I’ll do my best to try. “Why Diminishing Returns? I mean it costs UU?” Its mana cost makes up for the cards ability to simply win games. “What are some common ways of getting UU?” You could always take the slow route of using two lands to tap for U. Lotus Petals also work very fine, but the big one is Lion’s Eye Diamond and a tutor effect to cast Diminishing Returns. “When is the appropriate time to cast Diminishing Returns?” The right time to cast Diminishing Returns is when you can’t win off of Ill-Gotten Gains or if your opponent has something that will disrupt you. Another time to cast Diminishing Returns is when your opponent plays graveyard hate. “Doesn’t removing ten cards hurt?” Well, define “hurt.” The deck is very dense with threats that removing ten cards often doesn’t hurt unless you are terribly unlucky and remove all Burning Wishes, Tendrils of Agony, and the 3 Empty the Warrens.

Ill-Gotten Gains is a card that is so terribly easy to play I wonder how people mess it up. The key to playing Ill-Gotten Gains is being able to create up to six mana and having a tutor effect. But what are your prime targets? The most optimal targets for Ill-Gotten Gains are two Lion’s Eye Diamond and Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish. Against what decks is Ill-Gotten Gains better than Diminishing Returns? Goblins and non-blue decks. You see Stifle and cards like free counters (Daze, Force of Will) can be very troublesome if your opponent recurs them.

The win conditions for The EPIC Storm are pretty simple: Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens. When casting Tendrils of Agony you will need a storm count of ten and for Empty the Warrens on turn one you will need a storm count of five without blockers six with blockers per turn.

Playing the Deck
Playing The EPIC Storm may not be as easy as it seems; get to ten spells and win, right? No. The EPIC Storm is much more difficult to play; because of this I will walk you through a few games. Keep in mind the two sample games are completely random hands.

Opening hand one (on the play):
Undiscovered Paradise
City of Brass
Rite of Flame
Chrome Mox
Burning Wish
Infernal Tutor
Empty the Warrens

Turn One: Cabal Pit, Chrome Mox (Imprinting: Empty the Warrens). Tap both mana sources Infernal Tutor revealing Rite of Flame.
Turn Two: [Draw: Lotus Petal] City of Brass. Play Lotus Petal, Tap Chrome Mox play Rite of Flame one then play Rite of Flame two(RRRR), cast Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns(RR). Tap City of Brass, sacrifice Lotus Petal (RRUU untapped Cabal Pit) Cast Diminishing Returns.
Removing ten from the game:
City of Brass
Gemstone Mine
Tendrils of Agony
Undiscovered Paradise
Xantid Swarm
Burning Wish
Cabal Ritual
Brainstorm
Orim's Chant
Infernal Tutor

Drawing seven:
Gemstone Mine
Xantid Swarm
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Plunge Into Darkness
Rite of Flame
Chrome Mox

Play Chrome Mox (Imprinting: Rite of Flame), play Lion’s Eye Diamond, play Lion’s Eye Diamond. Tap Undiscovered Paradise, tap Chrome Mox; cast Plunge into Darkness in response sacrifice both Lion’s Eye Diamond (RRRBBB) (Your life total is currently seventeen) [Pay sixteen life with Plunge into Darkness]
Plunge into Darkness cards:
3x Brainstorm
3x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
2x Dark Ritual
2x Plunge into Darkness
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Burning Wish
Simian Spirit Guide
Diminishing Returns
[Selecting: Burning Wish, Removing: The rest]
Casting Burning Wish-> (RBBB) Tendrils of Agony for twenty two.

Opening hand two (on the Draw):
Undiscovered Paradise
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Simian Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide
Empty the Warrens
Lotus Petal
[Draw: Brainstorm]
Turn one: Undiscovered Paradise, Lotus Petal; Tap Paradise, Brainstorm (Lotus Petal, Tendrils of Agony and Diminishing Returns) (Putting back Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens). Play Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal then Dark Ritual, Remove 2 Simian Spirit Guides (BBBRR possible UU) Cast Diminishing Returns
Removing ten from the game:
Tendrils of Agony
Simian Spirit Guide
Xantid Swarm
Orim's Chant
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Infernal Tutor
Chrome Mox
Chrome Mox
Burning Wish
City of Brass

Drawing seven:
Plunge into Darkness
Plunge into Darkness
Plunge into Darkness
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
Simian Spirit Guide
Tendrils of Agony

Play Dark Ritual and Remove Simian Spirit Guide (BBBBRR), If you so choose cast Plunge into Darkness; Tendrils of Agony for twenty two, twenty four, or twenty six.

Match-ups against “The Big Three”

Threshold/Gro (45%-55%) Dependant on the list and Player.
Key Factors:
- Do I have Xantid Swarm or Orim's Chant? If so play it as quickly as possible.
- Try and win as fast as possible.
- Does my hand have a Tendrils or Warrens?
- How am I winning? Am I using Diminishing Returns or Ill-Gotten Gains? Am I using Empty the Warrens or Tendrils?
- Do I have the double Tendrils option (Burning Wish)?
- How many turns do I have left?
- Keep in mind what Meddling Mage is chanting.
- Do they play a singleton Engineered Explosives?
- Do they play Stifle?
- Lastly, this is the most important question; can you read a bluff? Reading your opponent is HUGE when trying to figure if you’re brave enough to win turns one–two.

Sideboarding
-2 Plunge into Darkness
-2 Simian Spirit Guide
+2 Defense Grid
+2 Orim's Chant

Solidarity (60%)
Key Factors
- Do I have Xantid Swarm or Orim's Chant? If so play it as quickly as possible.
- Try and win as fast as possible.
- Win before they get three islands.
- Do they have mana for Remand?
- Don’t be afraid to be aggressive. In this match-up you can afford to be since they don’t have Daze or Counterspell.
- Empty the Warrens Destroys them, try and play it turn one for 8-10 goblins.

Sideboarding
-2 Plunge into Darkness
-2 Simian Spirit Guide
+2 Defense Grid
+2 Orim's Chant

Goblins (70%)
Key Factors
- Aim to keep a hand with more acceleration than tutors.
- If your hand generally has more than one piece of protection (Swarm or Chant) mulligan.
- Try and win as fast as possible
- If keeping a one land hand, be hesitant to play that land unless combo-ing out that turn.
- Chrome Mox is pretty good in this match-up as an unkillable mana source that dodges wasteland and port.

Sideboarding
-4 Xantid Swarm
-2 Orim's Chant
+3 Shattering Spree
+2 Orim's Chant
+1 Cruel Bargain

Additional Reading

1st Thread - http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4612
Combo Summer thread - http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6037
TES vs. Iggy Pop thread- http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5157&highlight=TES

Major Tournament reports from TES players:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...11&postcount=1 - Bryant Cook's (Wastedlife) 1st place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=168135&postcount=1 - Bryant Cook's (Wastedlife) 1st place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...&postcount=393 - Florian Fischer's (Flod0) 1st place finish
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost....6&postcount=78 - Andrew Weinberger's (Andrew777) 1st place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5470 - Gnesotto Carlo's (Jegger) 2nd place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=149136&postcount=1 - Carl Wauer, Jr's (Carlos El Salvador) 2nd place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=151109&postcount=1 - Bryant Cook's (Wastedlife) 4th place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...33&postcount=1 - Brandon Adams's (Emidln) 4th place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...08&postcount=1 - Bryant Cook's (Wastedlife) 15th place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...81&postcount=1 - Jesse Krieger's (Krieger) 16th place finish

Articles discussing The EPIC Storm:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/13782.html - By Chris Coppola (Machinus)
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...le/14088.html- By Chris Coppola (Machinus)
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14837.html By Adam Barnello (Nightmare)
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14902.html By Chris Coppola (Machinus)

Podcasts discussing The EPIC Storm:
http://feed.teamicbm.com/ - I@n Degraff of Vintage’s ICBM interviews Bryant Cook(Wastedlife), creator of TES.

[emidln]

How many lands do you prefer?
10

How many storm spells, which ones?
4 (2 Tendrils of Agony, 2 Empty the Warrens)

Which protection spells, and how many of each?
4 Xantid Swarm

Which acceleration, Rite of Flame or Simian Spirit Guide?
4 Dark Rit, 4 Cabal Rit, 4 Rite of Flame, 4 LED

What's your "Wish board"?
1 Tendrils
1 ETW
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Earthquake
1 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard cards outside your "Wishboard"?
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shattering Spree (in addition to the 1 WB)

Do you aggresively Mulligan?
Yes

Diminishing Returns, Why or why not?
Diminishing Returns is essential to going off in situations where you lack the storm for Lethal Tendrils. I despise casting ETW after turn 1, and look to win now as often as possible.

Hand #1: Mulligan. This won't do anything interesting until turn 3, without protection, with extreme card disadvantage.

Hand #2: I'd mull this against anything that isn't stax.

Hand #3: I'd go off turn 1 with this hand on the play, while I'd brainstorm on the draw.

[Xenocide]

Here's a few sample hands, do you mulligan or not?

2x Chrome Mox, Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, Plunge into Darkness, and Infernal Tutor.

City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Tomb of Urami, Dark Ritual, Diminishing Returns, Rite of Flame, and Chrome Mox.

LED, LED, Burning Wish, Brainstorm, Land, Diminishing Returns, and Cabal Ritual.

Here is how I would play these hands.

Hand #1: Keep, and hope to draw a land or lotus petal.
Play the land or lotus petal that you drew, play both chrome moxes (removing plunge and burning wish), use mox and petal/land to play infernal (getting another rite of flame), play rite of flame using mox giving RR floating with a storm count of 4/5 (4 if you drew a land, 5 if you drew petal), use R to play the other rite of flame giving RRRR floating then play empty the warrens with a storm of 6/7.

Hand #2: If I know I am playing against a deck without StP and a slow clock, then I would keep this hand and try to kill with Tomb of Urami. Otherwise I would mulligan.

Hand #3: I would keep this hand, use brainstorm and hope to draw into another mana source to go off the next turn. @Emidln: I don't think you can combo out first turn with this hand sans a really good brainstorm.

[Peter_Rotten]

Hand#1: GTFO. Em said it best I believe: "This won't do anything interesting until turn 3, without protection, with extreme card disadvantage."

Hand#2: Keep. 3rd Turn DReturns plus whatever the two cards were that I drew. I'm hoping to draw some heavy accel and one non-Plunge tutor. If the DReturns sucks - but not too bad - I can try again turn 4.

Hand#3: Keep. I almost always gamble with single-land/Brainstorm hands. I'm clearly hoping for Lands first, then Petals in the Brainstorm. A really bad Brainstorm will probably cause a loss with this hand.

[Bryant Cook]

Hand#1: GTFO. Em said it best I believe: "This won't do anything interesting until turn 3, without protection, with extreme card disadvantage."

Hand#2: Keep. 3rd Turn DReturns plus whatever the two cards were that I drew. I'm hoping to draw some heavy accel and one non-Plunge tutor. If the DReturns sucks - but not too bad - I can try again turn 4.

Hand#3: Keep. I almost always gamble with single-land/Brainstorm hands. I'm clearly hoping for Lands first, then Petals in the Brainstorm. A really bad Brainstorm will probably cause a loss with this hand.

I disagree when on the draw. On the play I'd mull it. Scenario one, you Mox(Burning Wish), Mox(Plunge), then Infernal Tutor -> Rite of Flame. 2nd Turn Warrens, that's assuming you didn't draw a mana source in a deck crammed with them or else it'd be turn one.

Scenario 2, I'd Mulligan.

Scenario 3, keep.

I guess this shows how different results occur, with a few different views on keeping/mulliganing.

[etrigan]

Can we discuss Duress vs. Xantid Swarm still?

Or how much Tomb of Urami is such fucking ass, does nothing to help you combo, is too random as a 1-of to help vs control, and should just be replaced by the 4th Cabal Ritual?

[Citrus-God]

Can we discuss Duress vs. Xantid Swarm still?

Well, let's see. We concluded that Duress is ass because it forces you in a position to win small rather than win big. You already have cards that helps you win small, it's fucking called Empty The Fucking Warrens and Dark Confidant. Swarm is all about winning big if it's not answered. In short, go big or go home.


Or how much Tomb of Urami is such fucking ass, does nothing to help you combo, is too random as a 1-of to help vs control, and should just be replaced by the 4th Cabal Ritual?

Becaue Cabal Ritual is ass and makes you aggressively mulligan. As for the Tomb of Urami being ass, let's see.... you run hardly any lands, and yet it turns into a beefy evasive 5/5 flier with the help of some random ritual card. I won games I had no business winning simply because my opponent was in exhust after trying to stop me from comboing off, and I happened to topdeck a Ritual effect.

[Bryant Cook]

As for Tomb vs. Cabal Ritual

Tomb of Urami is a land, which means it doesn't require mana.
Tomb of Urami can win games on it's own.
It's also stifle bait.

Both produce B. (This deck rarely gets Threshold)

Cabal Ritual, can add BBB with Threshold.
Causes more mulligans.

EDIT: TES just had another big showing in Europe, the list is currently unavailable. He took 7th.

[BreathWeapon]

How many lands do you prefer?

10

How many storm spells, which ones?

1 Tendrils, 3 ETW

Which protection spells, and how many of each?

4 Duress

Which acceleration, Rite of Flame or Simian Spirit Guide?

4 Simian Spirit Guide

What's your "Wish board"?
1 Tendrils
1 ETW
1 G. Shot
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Hull Breach
1 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard cards outside your "Wishboard"?

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Shattering Spree

Do you aggresively Mulligan?

On the play, no, on the draw, yes.

Diminishing Returns, Why or why not?

I prefer 1 in the SB and 1 in the MD with the Duress and Simian Spirit Guide modifications, that deck list is designed to use Diminishing Returns to its fullest, in terms of goldfishing the deck at top speed and using Diminishing Returns to shuffle Meddling Mage and Stifle back into the opponent's deck.

Hand #1: Mulligan

Hand #2: Mulligan

Hand #3: Keep

I didn't concede the Xantid Swarm vs Duress argument, and there wasn't a single convincing counter argument either (the best counter argument wasn't even brought up).

How does a resolved Xantid Swarm "win big" and a resolved Duress "win small," if the opponent let the Xantid Swarm resolve, it's no different than letting the Duress resolve, except the Duress can't be Swords to Plowshared and can discard something of relevance. If the opponent has no disruption, the opponent loses; it's as simple as that.

There were three points raised for Xantid Swarm, Xantid Swarm vs Force of Will, double Xantid Swarm vs Force of Will and Xantid Swarm vs double Stifle.

Duress vs Force of Will and Xantid Swarm vs Force of Will comes down to information vs card advantage, the first of which can't be quantified and the second of which is relevant in the long term. If all the deck had to concern itself with was Force of Will, and all the aggro-deck cared about was card advantage, I would be willing to give the point to Xantid Swarm, but in cases where the opponent has Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will and Stifle or Force of Will and Engineered Explosives, I would give the point to Duress.

Double Duress vs Force of Will as opposed to double Xantid Swarm against Force of Will is a bad argument, IMO, because the deck shouldn't be drawing or tutoring into another disruption card as opposed to drawing or tutoring for Empty the Warrens and/or Diminishing Returns, but regardless, regaining the IGG chain in exchange for Time Walking the opponent is just as much of a double edged sword as not casting the second Duress and using Empty the Warrens and/or Diminishing Returns.

The number of times I couldn't Duress and discard something of relevance against double Stifle and then Diminishing Returns the double Stifle out of their hand and start over, with an additional chance to win the game, or Burning Wish for Cabal Therapy and discard the double Stifle is rare, as opposed to the number of times the opponent couldn't double Stifle the Xantid Swarm, three Time Walks counting summoning sickness, against Xantid Swarm to either find an answer to Xantid Swarm or find a Meddling Mage/Null Rod.

Duress vs Stifle as opposed to Xantid Swarm vs Stifle is a question of whether or not the opponent has another card in his to take advantage of the Xantid Swarm being a creature, Swords to Plowshares, or the double Time Walk, Meddling Mage or Null Rod, and if the TES pilot prefers using Ill Gotten Gains on turn as opposed to Empty the Warens and/or Diminishing Returns turn one or two.

The first and fourth points are arguable, the second and third points are tenuous, and that still leaves Swords to Plowshares, discarding non-instant based disruption, being black, being able to be cast on the combo turn, being able to be cast on turn 2 thru' X to allow turn 1 Brainstorm or Infernal Tutor -> Duress (it just works better than Xantid Swarm) not Time Walking the opponent into his turn after a blind turn one Xantid Swarm into Swamp discard or Ancient Tomb prison all in favor of Duress (I could also argue it's better against U/g/r, I swear I'd rather see Meddling Mage than 8 Bolts and 4 Clasms)

This deck should be set on winning the game with Diminishing Returns, Empty the Warrens or double Tendrils of Agony against control, winning with Ill Gotten Gains is for an unprotected opponent.

[outsideangel]

-How many lands do you prefer?
I personally run 11. I've considered 12, but would not go to 10, as the times I've drawn 1 land too few have far far far outnumbered the times I've drawn too many lands.

-How many storm spells, which ones
I run just two MD win conditions, a single copy of Tendrils and a single copy of Empty the Warrens. If I were to run anymore, it would be an additional copy of EtW, in a control/aggro-control heavy metagame.

-Which protection spells, and how many of each?
Currently, 4 MD Xantid Swarm, with a Duress as a Burning Wish target. I've been testing on and off with a single copy of Orim's Chant MD as the 5th protection spell.

-Which acceleration, Rite of Flame or Simian Spirit Guide?
Rite of Flame. I also run two copies of Seething Song.

-What's your "Wish board"?
Tendrils, EtW, Iggy, D-Returns, Duress, Earthquake, Shattering Spree, Tranquility

-Sideboard cards outside your "Wishboard"?
Defense Grid x 4, Echoing Truth x 3

-Do you aggresively Mulligan?
Depends on the matchup. I'm more likely to mulligan games 2 and 3 if I anticipate the opponent bringing in powerful hate cards. In those situations, I'll often mulligan into a very aggressive hand that can go off early, to pre-empt the hate cards coming down.

-Diminishing Returns, Why or why not?
I rarely use it, but I wouldn't want to not have it. It's a very powerful card, and typically when you resolve it with a decent amount of mana floating, you will win. It's risky, though.

[Citrus-God]

This deck should be set on winning the game with Diminishing Returns, Empty the Warrens or double Tendrils of Agony against control, winning with Ill Gotten Gains is for an unprotected opponent.

Soo.... you really wanna cast Duress post-Returns against Control? Xantid Swarm is something that just wins you the game once it resolves. Xantid Swarm creates virtual card advantage once it attacks and is unanswered. Duress is just 1-for-1.

Empty the Warrens is not something I like using to win with to be honest. I'd rather win now with Tendrils, but I will, however go for EtW if situation warrants it. Against control, you should be setting up double tendrils rather than going for the throat with EtW. EtW is more of a tool to weaken your opponent a little so you can make Tendrils effective (of course if people play like me and go EtW for 6 tokes and go from there).

Double Tendrils is an awesme plan against control. I would never disagree with that play.

So... here's how Xantid Swarm is good. Having the IGG plan available to you means you have more options available to you in general so you wont have to risk working with cards from D. Returns.


How does a resolved Xantid Swarm "win big" and a resolved Duress "win small," if the opponent let the Xantid Swarm resolve, it's no different than letting the Duress resolve, except the Duress can't be Swords to Plowshared and can discard something of relevance. If the opponent has no disruption, the opponent loses; it's as simple as that.

Because you win right there regardless of your opponent's hand if they cant answer it. As for Duress, if you see tons of answers for your combo, you have to play around them by using D. Returns, which ist always a good idea, whereas with Swarm, you can do so much regardless.


I know I am making Xantid Swarm sound like a crutch, but it can do so much for you, it's just efficient in general. It's like Meandeck Gifts cutting Burning Wish just to make using the Tendrils kill easier. What that action has done is give it not only a better fundamental turn, but also kill with less mana to invested in the Combo if t ever had Burning Wish in the first place.

[CalebD]

How many lands do you prefer?
10 so far, but I might switch back to 11.

How many storm spells, which ones?
2 of each

Which protection spells, and how many of each?

4 swarm seems to be the standard, so it's what I'm running. I am considering testing duress though, I'd like to hear what you have to say about it wastedlife.

xantid pros: cast turn one, doesnt use a mana when comboing off. Can stop multiple counterspell effects, as well as stifle. -although if they have double FoW, it's just as bad as if you had a duress, as they'll just FoW it.

Duress pros: Adds storm count, not vulnerable to creature removal.

Which acceleration, Rite of Flame or Simian Spirit Guide?
Right now I'm testing with 4 rite of flame and one spirit guide. The guide more takes the place of the 11th land though, hopefully making the turn one explosions slightly more common.

Also of note: my list has all 4 cabal rituals, but only 3 plunges.

What's your "Wish board"?

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [PLC] Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify (I'm more afraid of Solitary Confinement than rifter.)
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree

Sideboard cards outside your "Wishboard"?
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

If I know they have counters, and I don't have protection, I like being able to ramp up to playing 2 of either ToA or EtW. Thus, against some Control decks I'm testing this plan:

-1 Diminishing Returns
-4 Burning Wish
-4 LeD
-1 Ill Gotten Gains

+2 ToA
+2 EtW
+2 Duress
+4 Dark Confidant

Opening hands will have more storm spells, changing infernals roll dramatically. Instead of fetching up the win condition after playing out your hand it will probably be fetching copies of existing cards.

If this tests poorly (which it probably will as it looks scetchy even to me) I'll be retinkering my sb, making this part of my post moot.

Do you aggresively Mulligan?
Depends on the matchup. G1, against unknown.dec, yes I do tend to mulligan aggressively. I'm much more willing to mull into a hand that can make 10-14 tokens than wait a turn or two and try for a lethal tendrils, as the tokens are probably unanswerable and the few lands/spells they play should tell you what deck they're playing, and thus give you better sbing info.

Diminishing Returns, Why or why not?
Heck yes. A lot of the time it's the only out you have, or the only way to win turn 1, and you just have to go for it.

Hand 1: On the draw, I keep.I'm guessing that this is G1, and you don't know what your opponnent is playing. 8-12 tokens turn 1 against unknown.dec isn't horrible (you get 8 if you draw a land, 10 for an accellerant, and 12 for LED). That's 32 cards that improve, and 21 that make you wait a turn (but possibly help set up a tendrils kill). On the play the hand is garbage.

Hand 2: what are you hoping for if you keep this? turn 2 returns with a storm count of 3? No thank you, this one's hitting the bin whether I'm on the draw or the play.

Hand 3: Keep. Once again you have a lot of outs. If you're on the play you have access to 3 more cards to look at, and if one is a land/accellerant you should be good to go. Even another brainstorm is an out, as you can put it on the top with the returns underneath it, then cast it turn 2 and sack the LED's in response. Cabal Ritual looks like the only dead card here.

How about these?

Hand #4 Land, Lotus Petal, Cabal Therapy, Chrome Mox, LED, Brainstorm, Brainstorm

Hand #5 Empty the Warrens, Tendrils of Agony, Ill Gotten Gains, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Land

Hand #6 (post-mulligan) Land, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Cabal Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish

[Peter_Rotten]

I disagree when on the draw. On the play I'd mull it. Scenario one, you Mox(Burning Wish), Mox(Plunge), then Infernal Tutor -> Rite of Flame. 2nd Turn Warrens, that's assuming you didn't draw a mana source in a deck crammed with them or else it'd be turn one.

I just don't know about this. 6 tokens on turn 2 doesn't sound too impressive to me. Now of course, there is a chance that your draw allowed you to make 8 or 10 tokens - a little better, indeed. It seems too risky to me.


Scenario 2, I'd Mulligan.

Scenario 3, keep.

But why? Can you explain what your strategy would be for hand 3?

[Ewokslayer]

First the scenarios

Here's a few sample hands, do you mulligan or not?

2x Chrome Mox, Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, Plunge into Darkness, and Infernal Tutor.

City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Tomb of Urami, Dark Ritual, Diminishing Returns, Rite of Flame, and Chrome Mox.

LED, LED, Burning Wish, Brainstorm, Land, Diminishing Returns, and Cabal Ritual.

The first one I keep if I am on the draw I think always. On the play I would keep it against aggro decks and probably most other decks that don't pack daze.

while I could do


I disagree when on the draw. On the play I'd mull it. Scenario one, you Mox(Burning Wish), Mox(Plunge), then Infernal Tutor -> Rite of Flame. 2nd Turn Warrens, that's assuming you didn't draw a mana source in a deck crammed with them or else it'd be turn one.

But I agree with Rotten that 6-8 Goblin tokens turn 2 isn't going to be too impressive.
I would probably on the play not do anything turn one.
Turn two I can go nuts assuming I draw any of the 11 lands, 4 lotus petals, 4 LED, 4 Dark Rituals, 3 Cabal Rituals, or 3 Rite of Flames left in the deck. That is 29 cards out of 53 still in the deck. This way I can use the Moxes and Infernal to add to my storm count for a ETW.

Scenario 2 I mulligan that hand is pretty crappy.

#2: Keep. 3rd Turn DReturns plus whatever the two cards were that I drew. I'm hoping to draw some heavy accel and one non-Plunge tutor. If the DReturns sucks - but not too bad - I can try again turn 4. I don't understand how you can keep this hand with a turn 3 D Returns as the first play when for the first hand you said


Hand#1: GTFO. Em said it best I believe: "This won't do anything interesting until turn 3, without protection, with extreme card disadvantage."
At least the first hand has the potential for going broken if you draw just about any card.

Scenario 3
I would be a bit worried about keeping the hand against goblins in the face of Wasteland. But I am certainly keeping that on the draw there are about 29 cards that win me the game 1st turn. I can still win the game first turn on the play off of a decent brainstorm and turn 2 off of a mediocre Brainstorm. My biggest fear is to get a crappy brainstorm and then my land wasted but I don't think that is too likely to happen.

Duress vs. Xantid Swarm
@ BreathWeapon.
In my mind the biggest problem for Duress is that to be even close to as effective as Xantid Swarm you have to cast Duress the same turn that you combo off. That deprives the combo off a very preious resource early in the combo. One mana is huge in the first few sets of plays for the deck and having to use one to Duress is weak. Additionally, Casting Duress and then Casting Ill-Gotten Gains seems counterproductive.

Simian Guide vs Rite of Flames
While I do like the fact that Grunt does what very few cards in the deck do going from zero mana to 1 mana, 2 of the them only produce 3 mana (2 from each gudie as well as the 1 mana you save by them being free) while 2 rite of flames produce 4 mana, just the right amount for ETW.
Perhaps a better question might be Simian Guide vs Cabal Ritual as the deck rarely has threshold so they both produce 1 mana. Guide doesn't add to storm but it is also cheaper creating more early turn wins. I don't know if the black/red mana difference would be that great to make Ritual the winner.

I do have a few questions for the forum:

How much storm is "enough" to go for a ETW on Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 3?
Pretty much at what storm count do you go, that is good enough for me.

Does the trend towards UGr Threshold worry anyone as Pyroclasm = :frown: ?

Hull Breach in the board? I was thinking about the Goblin matchup and how most people bring in Shattering Spree against Goblins in response to a possible chalice. But what about Pyrostatic Pillar. Goblins will generally be going first game 2 so they can drop Pillar pretty quickly. Unlike Iggy Pop, TES won't gain the life back from Pillar all the time as TES doesn't always have the Tendrils for 18-20 that Iggy pop does. I don't know if being at 8 or so Game 2 Turn 2 with 10+ tokens against Goblins is good. Though Hull Breach just might be too slow to really matter anyway in the matchup.

[emidln]

The problem with "potential" to be good is that you still have infy land, infy tutors, and actual business spells that you really don't want to draw. Sure, if you topdeck something good you're in good shape, but living off the topdeck is not how I want to live with TES. I can just play SI if I want to rely on luck.

[matelml]

What is your opinion about infernal contract in the wishboard? I like it because sometimes I find myself in a situation with a lot of ritual mana, a burning wish in hand, no LED and no infernal tutor in the grave or hand. If you have a LED its obviously better to go for diminishing returns. And I don't understand why the original simplify was switched for tranquility, 3 mana is most of the time only castable if you use accelaration for it and I would think you don't want to waste accelaration on tranquility.

[Xenocide]

Something that would be useful, is if we had a percentage breakdown of what turn this deck 'goes off' with hands of different sizes. This would be especially helpful w/ hands like the first one posted, where there are approx. 20 outs to combo after one draw, and about 30 outs to combo after two draws. Granted, it should take into consideration whether it used EtW or ToA, and if there was protection.

[BreathWeapon]

Soo.... you really wanna cast Duress post-Returns against Control? Xantid Swarm is something that just wins you the game once it resolves. Xantid Swarm creates virtual card advantage once it attacks and is unanswered. Duress is just 1-for-1.

Empty the Warrens is not something I like using to win with to be honest. I'd rather win now with Tendrils, but I will, however go for EtW if situation warrants it. Against control, you should be setting up double tendrils rather than going for the throat with EtW. EtW is more of a tool to weaken your opponent a little so you can make Tendrils effective (of course if people play like me and go EtW for 6 tokes and go from there).

Double Tendrils is an awesme plan against control. I would never disagree with that play.

So... here's how Xantid Swarm is good. Having the IGG plan available to you means you have more options available to you in general so you wont have to risk working with cards from D. Returns.



Because you win right there regardless of your opponent's hand if they cant answer it. As for Duress, if you see tons of answers for your combo, you have to play around them by using D. Returns, which ist always a good idea, whereas with Swarm, you can do so much regardless.


I know I am making Xantid Swarm sound like a crutch, but it can do so much for you, it's just efficient in general. It's like Meandeck Gifts cutting Burning Wish just to make using the Tendrils kill easier. What that action has done is give it not only a better fundamental turn, but also kill with less mana to invested in the Combo if t ever had Burning Wish in the first place.

Xantid Swarm doesn't create virtual card advantage unless the opponent has multiples of an instant based hate card that couldn't counter Xantid Swarm or disrupt Xantid Swarm, and what card would that be? Threshold with double Daze on the draw? I could argue that Xantid Swarm decreases virtual card advantage because it is giving the opponent targets for his removal.

Casting Duress after a Diminishing Returns is a benefit, not a hinderance of the card; if I cast Duress, and the opponent discards Force of Will, it's the same thing as if I cast Xantid Swarm and the opponent counters it (let's disregard information vs card advantage). Now, with Force of Will in the discard pile, the deck is forced to either Empty the Warrens, double Tendrils of Agony or Diminishing Returns. With Diminishing Returns, I can shuffle the opponent's Force of Will back into his deck, and then I can draw a new hand and use the floating storm and mana to either combo off with Duress as disruption, as opposed to combo off with out disruption (in the case of Xantid Swarm) or start over from the top.

Duress/Xantid Swarm vs Force of Will, followed with Diminishing Returns, is the worst case scenario this deck should be prepared for, and Duress is better than Xantid Swarm at protecting Diminishing Returns before/after this scenario. Duress/Xantid Swarm vs no Force of Will is moot, because if Xantid Swarm is on the board, then the deck should just draw/tutor into the Ill Gotten Gains chains and get a guaranteed win; there's no reason for the deck to risk Diminishing Returns in this position, because drawing dead and giving the opponent a new hand is a poor proposition. I agree, it's great to have another out, but the number of times I couldn't win the game against 0 disruption with Ill Gotten Gains, Empty the Warrens or an unprotected Diminishing Returns (and that's a relevant statement, considering Duress can be cast after Diminishing Returns) are few and far between. Xantid Swarm resolving isn't an auto-win, the opponent not having disruption is an auto-win.

This quote bothers me to no end,

"Because you win right there regardless of your opponent's hand if they cant answer it. As for Duress, if you see tons of answers for your combo, you have to play around them by using D. Returns, which ist always a good idea, whereas with Swarm, you can do so much regardless."

Either the opponent has answers, Force of Will, Daze, Stifle, Counterspell (if people still use it) Meddling Mage, Null Rod, Chalice of the Void, Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypt (people will SB it in if they don't have anything better) or Swords to Plowshares or they don't have answers; I have never seen a single Duress do less than a single Xantid Swarm against a hand full of answers, because 2/3 of those answers counter or remove Xantid Swarm, and one third of those answers Xantid Swarm can't affect. Xantid Swarm draws one counter, the same as Duress, and either walks the deck into another counter, Stifle or the Xantid Swarm gets Swords to Plowshared and leaves the counter or Stifle in hand. Duress discards one counter, sees the opponent's hand, and allows you to play around the rest of their cards to the best of your ability.

Duress has saved me from more hands like Force of Will + Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will + Stifle, Null Rod + Swords to Plowshares/Stifle, Engineered Explosvies + Swords to Plowshares/Stifle than these hands that have a lot of hate, but none of which can affect Xantid Swarm or disregard it altogether.

I would rather work with the Duress vs worst cast scenarios than the Xantid Swarm vs best case scenarios.

[BreathWeapon]

@ BreathWeapon.
In my mind the biggest problem for Duress is that to be even close to as effective as Xantid Swarm you have to cast Duress the same turn that you combo off. That deprives the combo off a very preious resource early in the combo. One mana is huge in the first few sets of plays for the deck and having to use one to Duress is weak. Additionally, Casting Duress and then Casting Ill-Gotten Gains seems counterproductive.

Simian Guide vs Rite of Flames
While I do like the fact that Grunt does what very few cards in the deck do going from zero mana to 1 mana, 2 of the them only produce 3 mana (2 from each gudie as well as the 1 mana you save by them being free) while 2 rite of flames produce 4 mana, just the right amount for ETW.
Perhaps a better question might be Simian Guide vs Cabal Ritual as the deck rarely has threshold so they both produce 1 mana. Guide doesn't add to storm but it is also cheaper creating more early turn wins. I don't know if the black/red mana difference would be that great to make Ritual the winner.

I do have a few questions for the forum:

How much storm is "enough" to go for a ETW on Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 3?
Pretty much at what storm count do you go, that is good enough for me.

Does the trend towards UGr Threshold worry anyone as Pyroclasm = :frown: ?

Hull Breach in the board? I was thinking about the Goblin matchup and how most people bring in Shattering Spree against Goblins in response to a possible chalice. But what about Pyrostatic Pillar. Goblins will generally be going first game 2 so they can drop Pillar pretty quickly. Unlike Iggy Pop, TES won't gain the life back from Pillar all the time as TES doesn't always have the Tendrils for 18-20 that Iggy pop does. I don't know if being at 8 or so Game 2 Turn 2 with 10+ tokens against Goblins is good. Though Hull Breach just might be too slow to really matter anyway in the matchup.

Moderators, I apologize for the double post, but I don't want one post to have tangential arguments.

Xantid Swarm vs Duress,

Duress isn't required to be cast on the combo turn, but it can be if it has to. The worst the opponent can do is Brainstorm to protect a card from Duress, at which point the deck can respond with IGG, Returns or ETW. It's relevant game one, on the draw, before the deck SB in Xantid Swarm and the opponent SB out Swords to Plowshares. The opponent can also top deck a Force of Will or Stifle, but I would still rather take those risks, the first of which can be played around, or cast Duress on the combo turn to add to storm, than risk Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt.

Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide

It's a question of additional mana, storm and threshold vs 0 for R mana, uncounterable mana, additional plays, faster goldfish, protection from Daze and a 2/2 body. You really have to decide for yourself, but decide after you have played with SSG, not after comparing the two on paper, because in game SSG is a lot better than it looks.

ETW turn 1: Minimum of 6 tokens
ETW turn 2: Minimum of 6/8 tokens
ETW turn 3: Minimum of 10 tokens

Hull Breach is the same as Tranquility and Simplify, except the second can be unnecessarily expensive and the third doesn't always get its man, so I don't think it matters what removal spell is in your SB for Solitary Confinement and Pyrostatic Pillar; usually with Pyrostatic Pillar, you just want to Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens any way.

One card that I believe is a serious improvement to that SB slot is Deconstruct, a 2G sorcery speed Naturalize that adds GGG to your mana pool, allowing the deck to remove a target and then either combo on the same turn or cast Empty the Warrens with the additional storm.

[CalebD]

"Xantid Swarm doesn't create virtual card advantage unless the opponent has multiples of an instant based hate card that couldn't counter Xantid Swarm or disrupt Xantid Swarm, and what card would that be? Threshold with double Daze on the draw? I could argue that Xantid Swarm decreases virtual card advantage because it is giving the opponent targets for his removal."

And if the opponnent has double FoW, single blue card? I think Ill Gotten Gains is the main reason to run Xantid, though, the same reason why Iggy runs leyline.

If you aren't using Ill gotten gains or returns to build storm count, what are you using? With both cards Xantid seems inf. superior.

A pro for Duress is that it can be cast turn one and take a duress from your opponents hand, pre-emptively protecting the combo. Most decks running discard are good matchups anyway though.

Also of note: A lightning bolt/StP from Thresh could mean they aren't able to dig w/ brainstorm to hit a FoW, or that they won't be able to play the counterspell in their hand (if they were on the play, and serum visioned or something turn one).


The ETW question is a little silly. You can't really state a black and white number, as the number will change depending on the game state. Allow me to elaborate.

Turn 1: 8-10 tokens. Decks can deal with/race 6 too easily, so I never keep a hand that only has 6 tokens going for it. If I have taken multiple mulligans, and a 6 token hand comes up, of course I'll go for it.

Turn 2: Depends on what I'm facing. Against some decks EtW is no longer an option on turn 2. After turn one I'd generally rather wait a turn and try for the tendrils combo than make answerable tokens, especially if those tokens wont finish things until turn 4. Sometime's it's all you can do though, so 12-16 is my minimum, in harsh situations. Ideally you'd be better off making 20+, to hopefully end things on turn 3, but this only occurs when tendrils is no longer an option.

Turn 3: See turn 2, only becoming even more of a desperate play.

EtW is almost never the best play after turn one, but sometimes (as in with returns) you just have to go for it because it's all you can do.

[Nydaeli]

I think the main reason to run Duress is that it allows you to run a three-color manabase with fetchlands. This should in turn make Brainstorm stronger as a setup card and maybe make mulliganing decisions a little bit easier. I do think you lose power by making this change, but it might be a worthwhile tradeoff for consistency.

[BreathWeapon]

The chances of the opponent drawing a hand with 2 Force of Will and 1 blue card and having to either Force of Will, discarding another Force of Will, or discard the other blue card and keeping the second Force of Will off of a blue card, are rare, as opposed to Xantid Swarm giving Swords to Plowshares, direct damage or other removal a target.

Xantid Swarm doesn't protect Ill Gotten Gains more/less than Duress against Force of Will, and Xantid Swarm protects Diminishing Returns less against Force of Will; No Force of Will is as good as GG no matter how the deck chooses to win.

6 Tokens, turn one, is enough to race Threshold or put Threshold at such a low life total that a Tendrils will end the game, I assume no one uses ETW against Goblins as a win condition, but as damage + card advantage leading into a Tendrils.

There's no right number for ETW, but there are wrong numbers against wrong decks.

I've been thinking about a B/R Fetchland manabase for awhile, replacing Brainstorm with Night's Whispers, and using multiple Tomb of Urami. You gain resistance to Wasteland, better B/w and B/r match ups, additional Threshold and more win conditions, but lose being able to Burning Wish->Diminishing Returns and hard cast the Diminishing Returns and being able to Burning Wish->Enchantment Removal and SB in Xantid Swarms (could be Dark Confidants tho'). I'm not certain that the B/R Fetchland manabase and additional Tomb of Urami are worth removing those two SB outs, but it would be interesting to test it.

Edit: The deck can't hard cast the MD Diminishing Returns either.

[Bryant Cook]

Xantid Swarm doesn't create virtual card advantage unless the opponent has multiples of an instant based hate card that couldn't counter Xantid Swarm or disrupt Xantid Swarm, and what card would that be? Threshold with double Daze on the draw? I could argue that Xantid Swarm decreases virtual card advantage because it is giving the opponent targets for his removal. You mean counterspells? Xantid Swarm's best advantage over Duress is the ability to come online turn one, and lock down control decks from there. Here are a few examples against control:
Turn 1: Xantid Swarm. Resolves locking down counterspells, FOF's, Stifles, ect...
Turn 1: Duress. Hit X. Opponent draws a counterspell.
Duress just isn't good vs. Counter based decks. Duress is horrible against top decks it’s a fact. Locking down control at an early element in game state is what wins games. Not the turn you want to combo when they have multiple answers to your deck.
Is all of your logic based on the fact that the opponent MUST/already has an answer for Swarm? Many decks in the format that run blue run 4 spot removal which generally get SB'd out. If they don't it has the possibility of being a dead draw or you have Xantid and they don't have removal and you bury them in virtual card advantage. Yes, Xantid Swarm does create it; more so than Duress. Duress can never be anything more than card parity.


Casting Duress after a Diminishing Returns is a benefit, not a hinderance of the card; if I cast Duress, and the opponent discards Force of Will, it's the same thing as if I cast Xantid Swarm and the opponent counters it (let's disregard information vs card advantage). Now, with Force of Will in the discard pile, the deck is forced to either Empty the Warrens, double Tendrils of Agony or Diminishing Returns. With Diminishing Returns, I can shuffle the opponent's Force of Will back into his deck, and then I can draw a new hand and use the floating storm and mana to either combo off with Duress as disruption, as opposed to combo off with out disruption (in the case of Xantid Swarm) or start over from the top.
Let’s compare Duress vs. Xantid Swarm before Returns. I cast Swarm and swing locking out everything my opponent does or wants to do. I cast Duress and they draw double stifle, even though you Duress again. Oh noes, I've lost the game. This situation would've been solved a lot easier if you had a way to lockdown your opponent’s game state. If worse comes to worst with Xantid Swarm and I draw him after returns he always pitches to Chrome Mox or adds to Threshold.


Duress/Xantid Swarm vs Force of Will, followed with Diminishing Returns, is the worst case scenario this deck should be prepared for, and Duress is better than Xantid Swarm at protecting Diminishing Returns before/after this scenario. Duress/Xantid Swarm vs no Force of Will is moot, because if Xantid Swarm is on the board, then the deck should just draw/tutor into the Ill Gotten Gains chains and get a guaranteed win; there's no reason for the deck to risk Diminishing Returns in this position, because drawing dead and giving the opponent a new hand is a poor proposition. I agree, it's great to have another out, but the number of times I couldn't win the game against 0 disruption with Ill Gotten Gains, Empty the Warrens or an unprotected Diminishing Returns (and that's a relevant statement, considering Duress can be cast after Diminishing Returns) are few and far between. Xantid Swarm resolving isn't an auto-win, the opponent not having disruption is an auto-win. We've gone over this argument already, locking down game state is more important than card parity.


This quote bothers me to no end,
"Because you win right there regardless of your opponent's hand if they cant answer it. As for Duress, if you see tons of answers for your combo, you have to play around them by using D. Returns, which ist always a good idea, whereas with Swarm, you can do so much regardless."

Either the opponent has answers, Force of Will, Daze, Stifle, Counterspell (if people still use it) Meddling Mage, Null Rod, Chalice of the Void, Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypt (people will SB it in if they don't have anything better) or Swords to Plowshares or they don't have answers; I have never seen a single Duress do less than a single Xantid Swarm against a hand full of answers, because 2/3 of those answers counter or remove Xantid Swarm, and one third of those answers Xantid Swarm can't affect. Xantid Swarm draws one counter, the same as Duress, and either walks the deck into another counter, Stifle or the Xantid Swarm gets Swords to Plowshared and leaves the counter or Stifle in hand. Duress discards one counter, sees the opponent's hand, and allows you to play around the rest of their cards to the best of your ability. This is simply not true. Opponents keep hands of double stifle/double counterspell against TES all the time when playing control. You play first turn Xantid. It just shut down 2 cards in their hand where Duress would've only shut down one for a brief moment. The deck rarely even wins with Diminishing Returns which is why this portion of your argument is moot. Even if Diminishing Returns were better with Duress which it isn't, why's this a huge deal? It should matter on what we use the most, Ill-Gotten Gains. Duress is horrible with Ill-Gotten Gains which is why Iggy Pop doesn't play it. You're forced to get back Duress to answer one card and if they have multiples you simply lose the game. Where as Xantid Swarm would lockdown their hand and graveyard allowing a simple and easy pass to victory.
Duress only takes one card, what if they have Force, Force, and blue card? Duress has no way around that. Where as Xantid forces them to make a decision, where as Duress it's a "Meh, I guess."


Duress has saved me from more hands like Force of Will + Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will + Stifle, Null Rod + Swords to Plowshares/Stifle, Engineered Explosvies + Swords to Plowshares/Stifle than these hands that have a lot of hate, but none of which can affect Xantid Swarm or disregard it altogether.

I would rather work with the Duress vs worst cast scenarios than the Xantid Swarm vs best case scenarios. Did you notice something? I sure did, Empty the warrens doesn't care about nullrod. It's a win condition that simply ignores artifacts most of the time. Even then Nullrod isn't played. Period. I don't see where Duress is better than Xantid with Force and Stifle. You end up with one or the other, Xantid will take both and .5 storm. If every hand my opponent ever drew had Nullrod or Swords maybe.


The chances of the opponent drawing a hand with 2 Force of Will and 1 blue card and having to either Force of Will, discarding another Force of Will, or discard the other blue card and keeping the second Force of Will off of a blue card, are rare, as opposed to Xantid Swarm giving Swords to Plowshares, direct damage or other removal a target. Spot removal is becoming less and less popular, most decks only run 4 if that. More decks are moving to mass removal to deal with Goblins and ETW. Either way Xantid Swarm netted +1 Card Advantage where Duress was + 0.


Xantid Swarm doesn't protect Ill Gotten Gains more/less than Duress against Force of Will, and Xantid Swarm protects Diminishing Returns less against Force of Will; No Force of Will is as good as GG no matter how the deck chooses to win. This is ludicrous, a Xantid Swarm that has covered someone in bees is much more effieneecnt and creates card advantage compared to Duress by not having to return it's self to deal with hate which ends with +1 Xantid, -1 Duress(Because you had to do it twice).


6 Tokens, turn one, is enough to race Threshold or put Threshold at such a low life total that a Tendrils will end the game, I assume no one uses ETW against Goblins as a win condition, but as damage + card advantage leading into a Tendrils. The number of tokens depends on way too many things, who's on the play, deck, game state, hate, ect... This is not necessarily directed at you but more so everyone.

@Everyone about hands- I'm not a very aggressive mulligan-er, I'm the type of guy that "takes it slow, and lets the good times roll."

[BreathWeapon]

Counterspell or a counterspell? There's a difference between the UU instant, which isn't used in aggro-control, and the Force of Will, the Force of Will being the counter that I take into consideration .

Duress either discards Force of Will, where Xantid Swarm would be countered, or it discards Stifle, where Xantid Swarm would be Time Walked, or it discards Force of Will and reveals Stifle, where Xantid Swarm would be countered and risks Stifle, and then be able to Diminishing Returns and shuffle the Stifle back into the deck (I don't care if the opponent draws Stifle again or not, the position is still better for TES after Duress and Diminishing Returns then it is for TES after Xantid Swarm and ??? where Duress disrupted the opponent and can disrupt the opponent again).

So, Xantid Swarm is good against double Counterspell, the counterspell no one uses, at creating virtual card advantage, Xantid Swarm is mediocre against double Stifle, where the opponent gets three Time Walks.

Duress can avoid losing to the top deck by being played on the same turn that you combo, regardless, the opponent top decking a Force of Will or Stifle is better than losing Xantid Swarm to Swords to Plowshares (people never really SB that card out, because they rarely have anything better to replace it with).

Comparing a resolved Xantid Swarm and a resolved Duress before/after a Diminishing Returns is retarded, if the opponent had no Force of Will, no Stifle, no Swords to Plowshares, no Meddling Mage, no Null Rod and no Engineered Explsives/Tividar's Crusade then how is the method with which the deck chooses to end the game relevant? You just win.

That argument had nothing to do with locking down the game vs card parody, it had to do with Ill Gotten Gains being the superior win condition than Diminishing Returns when the opponent had no disruption in hand at the start of the game.

Again, double Counterspell or double counterspell? I don't see opponents who are stupid enough to keep hands with 2 counterspells that can't stop Xantid Swarm from resolving or Time Walk against it.

This deck wins more with Diminishing Returns than it does with Ill Gotten Gains against aggro-control or control, 40% of game one the opponent will draw Force of Will, and game two and three the opponent can mulligan into Force of Will. Force of Will=No Ill Gotten Gains, and that isn't counting the odds of being Tormod's Crypted.

The Duress discard the Force of Will and reveals the Stifle, so the Stifle can be shuffled back into the deck with Diminishing Returns, which is better than the opponent countering the Force of Will and letting TES play into Stifle.

I don't care that much about the -1 card advantage from a Force of Will, the deck is going to have to give that card advantage back to the opponent with Diminishing Returns if it wants to win with Tendrils

I'll concede that Duress is worse against top decks tho', I'm just not certain that is as bad as being a removal magnet.

[Bryant Cook]

Counterspell or a counterspell? There's a difference between the UU instant, which isn't used in aggro-control, and the Force of Will, the Force of Will being the counter that I take into consideration . I ment the card counterspell which is played in Gro and Landstill. The two control decks currently in the LMF.


Duress either discards Force of Will, where Xantid Swarm would be countered, or it discards Stifle, where Xantid Swarm would be Time Walked, or it discards Force of Will and reveals Stifle, where Xantid Swarm would be countered and risks Stifle, and then be able to Diminishing Returns and shuffle the Stifle back into the deck (I don't care if the opponent draws Stifle again or not, the position is still better for TES after Duress and Diminishing Returns then it is for TES after Xantid Swarm and ??? where Duress disrupted the opponent and can disrupt the opponent again). This is flawed logic. I don't play around stifle, but yet you used Diminishing Returns in defense earlier while discussing Ill-Gotten Gains and stifle. Which one is it? You assume way too many things such as "Duress is better after returns" Xantid is better before Returns. Beating a dead horse and posting that same line countless times gets you no where.


So, Xantid Swarm is good against double Counterspell, the counterspell no one uses, at creating virtual card advantage, Xantid Swarm is mediocre against double Stifle, where the opponent gets three Time Walks. Those time walks are card advantage something Duress doesn't create. Making Xantid a better suited card against control. If they are stifling Swarm that means they don't have an answer and are desperatly needing to find one or they lose.


Duress can avoid losing to the top deck by being played on the same turn that you combo, regardless, the opponent top decking a Force of Will or Stifle is better than losing Xantid Swarm to Swords to Plowshares (people never really SB that card out, because they rarely have anything better to replace it with). Playing the Duress the turn you combo can often be irrelevant. When playing against landstill for instance(Most control match-ups go to mid-game) and they have Force, Force, Stifle, and Fof. Xantid Swarm locked off those cards turn one. While they sat there and drew counterspell after counterspell. While Duress finds itself useless.


Comparing a resolved Xantid Swarm and a resolved Duress before/after a Diminishing Returns is retarded, if the opponent had no Force of Will, no Stifle, no Swords to Plowshares, no Meddling Mage, no Null Rod and no Engineered Explsives/Tividar's Crusade then how is the method with which the deck chooses to end the game relevant? You just win. Why? You were comparing a resolved Duress earlier to a countered Xantid. Stifle gains you card advantage, What does Meddling Mage do to turn one Xantid? Nullrod, last time I knew Xantid wasn't an artifact creature, and Tividars crusade? They're bees. I know what you meant to say, however, hald the cards you posted don't do anything if you had your opponent in bees and played Returns. Xantid Swarm goes unanswered more than you'd think. The format isn't full of lava darts and darkblast.


That argument had nothing to do with locking down the game vs card parody, it had to do with Ill Gotten Gains being the superior win condition than Diminishing Returns when the opponent had no disruption in hand at the start of the game. It's a huge factor in deciding what card is better for protection. It is relevant. They could've had plently of discruption, Stifle, Daze, Counterspell, and ect.. alot of the "Disruption" doesn't come online until after Xantid has hit the table.


Again, double Counterspell or double counterspell? I don't see opponents who are stupid enough to keep hands with 2 counterspells that can't stop Xantid Swarm from resolving or Time Walk against it. Happens alot, not every hand is perfect.


This deck wins more with Diminishing Returns than it does with Ill Gotten Gains against aggro-control or control, 40% of game one the opponent will draw Force of Will, and game two and three the opponent can mulligan into Force of Will. Force of Will=No Ill Gotten Gains, and that isn't counting the odds of being Tormod's Crypted. Maybe if you're playing sub-optimal card choices, not when playing cards that synergize with the strongest storm generator in the deck. Anyone who has played the deck knows you win with Igg more than Returns vs. Everything.


The Duress discard the Force of Will and reveals the Stifle, so the Stifle can be shuffled back into the deck with Diminishing Returns, which is better than the opponent countering the Force of Will and letting TES play into Stifle. Because you will always have BUU2 avaiable and the cards nessesary at all times, right?


I don't care that much about the -1 card advantage from a Force of Will, the deck is going to have to give that card advantage back to the opponent with Diminishing Returns if it wants to win with Tendrils Why do all of your examples always have a returns attached? There's only one in the deck. You always dont have UU avaiable, more importantly, you said you cut returns from the MD. So unless I'm wrong you need Burning Wish too? I wish I could draw everything I ever wanted too.


I'll concede that Duress is worse against top decks tho', I'm just not certain that is as bad as being a removal magnet. I don't see this being logical at all you play ETW and Confidant don't you?

[CalebD]

Xantid Swarm doesn't protect Ill Gotten Gains more/less than Duress against Force of Will, and Xantid Swarm protects Diminishing Returns less against Force of Will; No Force of Will is as good as GG no matter how the deck chooses to win.

? Post gains you'll need another black mana for that duress again, if you're making the point I think you're trying to make. Now Duress costs BB instead of Xantid's G, I think that sounds worse to me.

Claiming that Duress and Xantid are equal when Diminishing Returns is concerned is just shortsighted. When you cast Returns that duress is getting shuffled back into your library, and you *might* get it again when you try to combo out with your second hand. If they draw a FoW, and you didn't draw it the duress again, you're fecked (there's a 40% chance of them just drawing the force with the second hand.) Xantid's ability, however, keeps you safe through Return's set of cards as well.


the opponent top decking a Force of Will or Stifle is better than losing Xantid Swarm to Swords to Plowshares (people never really SB that card out, because they rarely have anything better to replace it with).

Are you claiming that people running force of will or stifle rarely have a sb for storm decks? I find that hard to believe, as every Thresh deck has at least needles in the board, and needle on LED is better than nothing.


Force of Will=No Ill Gotten Gains, and that isn't counting the odds of being Tormod's Crypted.

Tormod's Crypt hmm? Almost sounds like an anti-combo card commonly found in control decks sb. Why, they might even want to take out MD creature removal for it! Fancy that!

I'm not saying that's the right play, but there are a surprising number of players who haven't tested the matchup yet. If you listen to the podcast on goblins after the podcast on the Epic Storm, you'll hear a very good gobblins player talk about how the storm matchup "couldn't be that bad for gobblins." Anyone who has tested the matchup knows it is.



Comparing a resolved Xantid Swarm and a resolved Duress before/after a Diminishing Returns is retarded, if the opponent had no Force of Will, no Stifle, no Swords to Plowshares, no Meddling Mage, no Null Rod and no Engineered Explsives/Tividar's Crusade then how is the method with which the deck chooses to end the game relevant? You just win.

They can not have the removal with their first hand, and then draw into it with the returns, obviously. Xantid keeps you safe during that second hand of cards, as well as keeps you safe from whatever countermagic they've managed to aquire on their second turn. That is the relevance to the xantid swarm/duress comparison pre-returns and post-returns.

[3eowulf]

Are you claiming that people running force of will or stifle rarely have a sb for storm decks? I find that hard to believe, as every Thresh deck has at least needles in the board, and needle on LED is better than nothing.I'd rather needle Tomb of Urami ^_^

On Xantid vs. Duress, even if i like duress more, i must admit it's far inferior here, since you need to go off the same turn you use Duress (for obvious topdecking reasons) and so you can't set up. This means:

1) When you cast Duress you either: encounter no disruption and win with IGG / discard a counter/stifle and risk with a small Empty (can't cast IGG, you likely haven't enough mana to recur Duress)/ get your Duress countered and risk with a small Empty (same as above)/ discard a counter/stifle, see another piece of disruption and die orribly.

2) If you cast Duress (in the first turns) and chose not to go off after it being countered or seeing another piece of disruption, you have likely burned also a piece of acceleration.

3) If you wait even a turn to go off (i.e. need one more mana source), they have even more chances to draw disruption.

4) You can't use Diminishing Returns after a Duress: it's already hard to have UU, then you must find a Duress, the mana to cast it, and the mana to finish the combo.

When using Xantid you obviously have the same problem if it get's countered, but you are advantaged by the fact that you can cast it far ahead. A resolved Xantid is game, a Duress isn't.

[CalebD]

oh... right... dur... I need to stop posting at 4 in the morning. In fact, I need to stop playtesting, tweaking, and generally trying to think at 4 in the morning. Seeing as how it's 5 now, I'm gunna go pass out.

[tivadar]

Are you claiming that people running force of will or stifle rarely have a sb for storm decks? I find that hard to believe, as every Thresh deck has at least needles in the board, and needle on LED is better than nothing.

Actually needle on LED IS nothing...

[BreathWeapon]

People either aren't bothering to read what I write, or I'm not articulating the point; I'm not going to answer 99% of those posts because I addressed them earlier.

I MD Diminishing Returns, regardless, 40% of the time the opponent draws Force of Will, and that percentage increases with game 2 and game 3 mulligans. I don't see how this deck is winning with Ill Gotten Gains more than Diminishing Returns when a Force of Will is in the discard pile more often than not.

Stifling Xantid Swarm isn't card disadvantage in the traditional sense, Stifle Time Walks Threshold into another turn and another card, and the card Threshold draws has more net utility than the card TES draws, considering that card has to be able to alter the game state, while TES should have sufficient cards in hand to go off on the following turn.

I hate turn one Land, Xantid go. Land go. Turn two attack with Xantid, Stifle in response pass. Land into Meddling Mage or Null Rod.

I don't have a problem discarding the Force of Will, revealing the Stifle and then casting Diminishing Returns on the second or third turn, all it requires is Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish and LED or Burning Wish and UU.

ETW isn't countered via Swords to Plowshares and Dark Confidant is in the SB.

Aggro-control SBs out Mystic Enforcer and Pithing Needle before it SBs out Swords to Plowshares for Tormod's Crypts, and Aggro-control SBs in Engineered Explosives if they have it. Those decks tend to have more removal for Xantid Swarm games 2 and 3 than they do game one.

After facing Landstill and High Tide on MWS, I'm going back to Xantid Swarm; while Duress is better against aggro-control, IMO, it's worse against control. The number of Counterspells, Spell Snares and Disrupt I encountered were ridiculous.

Does TES just lose to 4 Force of Will, 4 Counterspell, 4 Stifle, 4 Duress/Spell Snare, 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Wasteland possible Arcane Labe/Rule of Law and Pernicious Deed post board?

On a side note,

If the opponent goes Island go, do people go land, Chrome Mox to bait Daze on Chrome Mox, or do people go land Xantid Swarm and disregard Daze?

Do people SB out ETW(s) on the draw?

Do people ever want to be able to SB in Tendrils to have 3 MD against control?

[Bryant Cook]

I don't see how this deck is winning with Ill Gotten Gains more than Diminishing Returns when a Force of Will is in the discard pile more often than not. When Xantid Swarm is on the table the Force of Will in the graveyard and hand doesn't matter. Which makes it infinitly easier to win with Ill-Gotten Gains.


Stifling Xantid Swarm isn't card disadvantage in the traditional sense, Stifle Time Walks Threshold into another turn and another card, and the card Threshold draws has more net utility than the card TES draws, considering that card has to be able to alter the game state, while TES should have sufficient cards in hand to go off on the following turn. Lol, am I supposed to argue against this? I'm not sure but I think you just helped prove my point...


I hate turn one Land, Xantid go. Land go. Turn two attack with Xantid, Stifle in response pass. Land into Meddling Mage or Null Rod. Who cares about Meddling Mage? Really, the deck was built to ignore it. Null Rod, I admit would be bad but doesn't see enough play around here to warrant changing the deck for it.


I don't have a problem discarding the Force of Will, revealing the Stifle and then casting Diminishing Returns on the second or third turn, all it requires is Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish and LED or Burning Wish and UU. If you had Xantid you could've gotten both cards, stifle removed and won without hassle.


ETW isn't countered via Swords to Plowshares and Dark Confidant is in the SB. I'm aware Dark Confidant is in the SB but in the aggro control match-up I side him in, he eats alot more hate than Xantid does for some reason. If he doesn't he finds more Swarms.


After facing Landstill and High Tide on MWS, I'm going back to Xantid Swarm; while Duress is better against aggro-control, IMO, it's worse against control. The number of Counterspells, Spell Snares and Disrupt I encountered were ridiculous. Glad to see you've come to your senses.


Does TES just lose to 4 Force of Will, 4 Counterspell, 4 Stifle, 4 Duress/Spell Snare, 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Wasteland possible Arcane Labe/Rule of Law and Pernicious Deed post board? "Xantid Swarm, go."


Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide

It's a question of additional mana, storm and threshold vs 0 for R mana, uncounterable mana, additional plays, faster goldfish, protection from Daze and a 2/2 body. You really have to decide for yourself, but decide after you have played with SSG, not after comparing the two on paper, because in game SSG is a lot better than it looks.

I could argue that the additional mana and the storm will provide faster more efficient goldfishes. I think SSG being uncounterable is next to irrelevant, who counters Lotus Petal? The protection from Daze is the only benefit I see out of SSG and even at that you are wasting resources. The storm, additional mana in multiples, being able to come back with Ill-Gotten Gains, two Rite of Flames being perfect for ETW, increasing deck speed, and Threshold are what make Rite of Flame better than SSG. Rite of Flame also shuffles back in after Diminishing Returns, unlike SSG.

[matelml]

I joined a dutch tournament yesterday with this deck and came in 13th out of 132, with 5 wins and 2 losses. Because the top 8 would only play for a ticket to GP columbus many people dropped so I got to play in the top 8. My first games I won, but the second I lost so I was shared third.

I played with this list:

1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 diminishing returns
1 ill-gotten gains
4 infernal tutor
4 B wish
4 plunge
4 brainstorm
4 LED
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
2 seething song
2 chrome mox
1 simian spirit guide
4 city
4 mine
2 orchard
1 tomb of urami
4 xantid swarm
SB:
4 duress
3 empty the warrens
1 tendrils
1 returns
1 ill-gotten gains
1 infernal contract
1 grape shot
1 rough//tumble
1 shattering spree
1 simplify

the first round I played the mirror and won, partly because of me having SB duress. The 2nd game I won of B/W deadguy, one game I won after waste, sinkhole, duress, duress, because of topdecked treshed cabal rituals. The 3rd game I won against some kind of treshhold with red for SB pyroclasm and vial. The 4rth I lost against some weird counterbalance deck. The 5th I won against some U/R/W control with a lot of counters, some burn, and a stuffy doll combo wincondition. The 6th I lost to freaking GOBLINS. Because I had to mull to five and six, and he then put down chalice for 1 and then kept porting me. The 7th game I won of aluren and in top 8 I won of belcher and lost to solidarity.

I have used diminishing returns just ONCE and then fizzeled of it. In goldfish it seems a lot better than it is in practise, but I will still keep it in my deck for now. I used empty the warren 3 times and won two of them. Many times I was afraid to use it.
I like having 1 main tendrils because it can cost you games drawing it.
I haven't missed the extra chrome moxes but I wasn't sure if I wanted the simian spirit guide to be chrome mox or not, but I only had two moxes so I did it this way. Overal I am pretty happy with the deck and am planning to play in more tournaments with it.

matteus

[BreathWeapon]

Meddling Mage on LED or Ritual is still a serious problem.

SSG vs Daze isn't wasting resources, it's saving resources, the mana invested in the card being Dazed is at least equal to the mana that SSG would have produced, and if Daze is countered and the card resolves, the opponent is -1 card and -1 land drop to -1 card.

IMO, SSG is faster than Right of Flame, thanks to more turn 1 ETW and turn 4 wins and more turn 1/2 Diminishing Returns wins, it occurs more often than double Right of Flame does.

People will counter Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal if it's the card that creates 4 mana and 1 red mana.

[Bryant Cook]

A few more sample hands: These are all game one on the play.

Hand one: Gemstone mine, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise, Cabal Ritual, Xantid Swarm and Burning Wish.

Hand two: 2x Xantid Swarm, 2x Dark Ritual, City of Brass, Lotus Petal and Brainstorm.

Hand Three: Rite of Flame, Tendrils of Agony, 2x Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm.

Turns out you mulliagned game one. :-p. Thanks Ewokslayer.

[Peter_Rotten]

A few more sample hands: These are all game one on the play.

Hand one: Gemstone mine, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise, Cabal Ritual, Xantid Swarm and Burning Wish.

Keep, looking for a turn 3 or 4 Tendrils win, but the hand is flippin weak.


Hand two: 2x Xantid Swarm, 2x Dark Ritual, City of Brass, Lotus Petal and Brainstorm.

Damn, I'm a sucker for Brainstorm. Sigh, keep and pray.


Hand Three: Rite of Flame, Tendrils of Agony, 2x Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm.

I'd toss this away in a second - if wasn't for goddamn Brainstorm! This is the type of hand I'd keep and absolutely hate myself when I get screwed by a bad Brainstorm. 2 Dead cards and no permanent mana source? I think this is a hand that should be mullied, but like I said, I'm a sucker for Brainstorm.

[Ewokslayer]

Hand one: Gemstone mine, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise, Cabal Ritual, Xantid Swarm and Burning Wish.
Turns out you mulliagned game one. :-p. Thanks Ewokslayer.


Hand 1: Mulliganing down to 5 seems iffy. But this hand is pretty much only going to do a third turn D-Return which isn't that impressive. I think you mulligan and hope for a good 5 card hand.


Hand two: 2x Xantid Swarm, 2x Dark Ritual, City of Brass, Lotus Petal and Brainstorm.
Keep.
First turn Xantid Swarm should get you around all the blue decks in the format. Hopefully your land will stick around long enough to be used for Brainstorm against Goblins. I am a bit worried that this hand has nothing to do with the mana it can generate but hopefully your turn 2 draw and the brainstorm will fix that.

Hand Three: Rite of Flame, Tendrils of Agony, 2x Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm.

A bad hand with lots of potential. I so want to keep, drop petal brainstorm, draw the nuts and win, but that is unlikely. It looks like it can get you a turn 2 D-Returns which isn't horrible. Though you wouldn't have any mana floating unless the Brainstorm was excellent and not just average.
Mulligan.

[BreathWeapon]

A few more sample hands: These are all game one on the play.

Hand one: Gemstone mine, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise, Cabal Ritual, Xantid Swarm and Burning Wish.

Hand two: 2x Xantid Swarm, 2x Dark Ritual, City of Brass, Lotus Petal and Brainstorm.

Hand Three: Rite of Flame, Tendrils of Agony, 2x Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm.

Turns out you mulliagned game one. :-p. Thanks Ewokslayer.

Hand 1: Land, Xantid. Land, Burning Wish->Diminishing Returns. Land, and here the deck has to have drawn into another accelerant in order to cast Diminishing Returns.

Keep

Hand 2: Land, Xantid Swarm. That gives the deck a top deck and a Brainstorm to get its act together, and if the opponent counters the first Xantid Swarm, then second Xantid Swarm gives the deck another top deck.

Keep

Hand 3: Two 4cc cards, no permanent mana source and Brainstorm has to draw into a Burning Wish or an Infernal Tutor and a mana source just to be able to Diminishing Returns with 0 mana floating.

Mulligan

[CalebD]

Hand 1 -I'd much rather keep this weak hand then go to 5. With this you just need to draw some accelleration, especially a LED. I wouldn't burning wish for the returns until I had the mana to cast both though, since depending on my draw I might get something better than returns, and there's nothing wrong with gripping your second 7 with a bit of a storm count.

Hand 2-Lots of accelleration and protection. The likelyhood of this hand winning is pretty good, so I keep.

Hand 3-Lots of crap clogging your hand, and no clear path to victory. Easy Mull.

[outsideangel]

Hand one: Gemstone mine, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise, Cabal Ritual, Xantid Swarm and Burning Wish.


Not a bad hand, it's got protection, and if you can draw some acceleration, you're good. I'd keep.



Hand two: 2x Xantid Swarm, 2x Dark Ritual, City of Brass, Lotus Petal and Brainstorm.


It's got Brainstorm, protection, good acceleration, and Brainstorm. Keeper.



Hand Three: Rite of Flame, Tendrils of Agony, 2x Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm.

Kind of a gross hand. The Tendrils is basically like you've already mulliganed, so I'd toss it back and look for something better.

[jegger]

How many lands do you prefer?

11 with Tomb of Urami and Cabal Pit.
I think that at the next tournament where I preview many Threshold I switch +1 pit -1 urami.

How many storm spells, which ones?
3: 2 ToA & 1 EtW.

Which protection spells, and how many of each?
4 xantid swarm, but now I'm testing others protection cards different from duress/therapy.

Which acceleration, Rite of Flame or Simian Spirit Guide?
Rite of flame. Sure.

What's your "Wish board"?
At last tournament:
3 EtW
1 ToA
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Iggy Pop
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility (next tournament simplify)
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Earthquake

Sideboard cards outside your "Wishboard"?
3 dark Confidant
2 Orim's Chant

Do you aggresively Mulligan?
Depends...if I play against fast combo decks like belcher or against fast control like counterbalance decks I mulligan aggresively. Instead against slow decks I can to keep a weak hand.

Diminishing Returns, Why or why not?
Sure. It gives me the possibility to combo with not many mana in pool or for to go around a stifle/orim when I can't wish -> therapy.

2x Chrome Mox, Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, Plunge into Darkness, and Infernal Tutor.
I keep sure against not blue decks. I need only one of my acceleration (11 lands + 4 ritual + 3 rite + 4 LED + 4 cabal +4 petal +2 chrome = 32 cards of 52) to produce some gobbos. With a LED I can think also to start with a diminishing returns. Instead if my opponent plays a deck based on blue I think I can keep, but I'm not so sure; depends also if he play stifle.

City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Tomb of Urami, Dark Ritual, Diminishing Returns, Rite of Flame, and Chrome Mox.
I don't like this hand. 3 lands are too many and I can do the diminishing returns in my second turn only if I topdeck red (0 mana open) or black spell (1 black open) or petal.
I think I can keep this hand only against decks that don't use discard effects and counters. Pratically only against bye:tongue:

LED, LED, Burning Wish, Brainstorm, Land, Diminishing Returns, and Cabal Ritual.
WoW! Keep, Keep, Keep! This deck is risk and I want to play risky! :wink:
I need only a land, petal, chrome or rite to start and if I topdeck a bad cabal ritual I can play also brainstorm to increase the possibility to draw the cards that I need.

If the opponent goes Island go, do people go land, Chrome Mox to bait Daze on Chrome Mox, or do people go land Xantid Swarm and disregard Daze?
For my experience in tournament against decks that use daze I go around it to save my xantid. I'm more slow and I have a minor storm count, but If my opponent can counter my xantid he go in card disavantage perhaps discarding Daze on FoW.

Do people SB out ETW(s) on the draw?
Usually not.

Do people ever want to be able to SB in Tendrils to have 3 MD against control?
I never try this strategy against control. But I think that I prefer to have a 4 more possibility to tutor the ToA at right time. Also against control I can side in 2 additional EtW, so I prefer side in them instead of an additional ToA.
At now, with orim, more EtW and confidants perhaps I have too many cards against control, but I prefer to keep out shattering spree because stax isn't present in my meta.

Hand one: Gemstone mine, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise, Cabal Ritual, Xantid Swarm and Burning Wish.
Against decks with blue I keep sure instead of mulligan at 5. Against fast decks like combo or gobbo I think I mulligan.

Hand two: 2x Xantid Swarm, 2x Dark Ritual, City of Brass, Lotus Petal and Brainstorm.
Keep. It's a strong hand against blue based decks and against others decks I need a tutor to start with a brainstorm in hand. Sometimes when my opponent doesn't to do many pressure I wait to cast brainstorm so its effect goes more deep in the deck.

Hand Three: Rite of Flame, Tendrils of Agony, 2x Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm.
Mah, I mulligan. Damn brainstorm can do to me a bad choice. :eek:

[BreathWeapon]

Isn't Tomb of Urami superior to Cabal Pit against Threshold? A 5/5 will win the game, where removing a Meddling Mage is still at least a Stone Rain and a Time Walk.

[Bryant Cook]

Isn't Tomb of Urami superior to Cabal Pit against Threshold? A 5/5 will win the game, where removing a Meddling Mage is still at least a Stone Rain and a Time Walk.

I really hate agreeing with this guy but... he's right. If I'd cut anything for Cabal Pit it'd be the second paradise. Cabal Pit was in earlier lists until ETW started unleashing havoc: buring cities, kicking children, stealing Matt Elgin's collection, robbed key bank and everything else. ETW just got round Meddling Mages and other such hate, leaving Cabal Pit unnessesary.

[Ewokslayer]

I really hate agreeing with this guy but... he's right. If I'd cut anything for Cabal Pit it'd be the second paradise. Cabal Pit was in earlier lists until ETW started unleashing havoc: buring cities, kicking children, stealing Matt Elgin's collection, robbed key bank and everything else. ETW just got round Meddling Mages and other such hate, leaving Cabal Pit unnessesary.

Well at least we now know what happened to Elgin's cards. If only we could find who stole Anwar's cards as easily.

Concerning Tomb of Urami,
In what situations do you blow it? BreathWeapon mentions its use against Threshold but doesn't STP just own you then?

[noobslayer]

a) Would they even bother to leave in StP game 2 and 3?

b) Urami seems like more of a threat than -2/-2. Wouldn't you agree?

[Ewokslayer]

a) Would they even bother to leave in StP game 2 and 3?

b) Urami seems like more of a threat than -2/-2. Wouldn't you agree?

a) Why would they take out 4 answers to Swarm? and for what?

b) I didn't mean to suggest that I liked Cabal Pit in that slot, I was just looking for ideas for the optimal use of Tomb.

[BreathWeapon]

Well at least we now know what happened to Elgin's cards. If only we could find who stole Anwar's cards as easily.

Concerning Tomb of Urami,
In what situations do you blow it? BreathWeapon mentions its use against Threshold but doesn't STP just own you then?


It's more or less the deck's only out with Infernal Tutor against Arcane Lab, you play the Lion's Eye Diamond, play the Infernal Tutor and then sacrifice the Lion's Eye Diamond in response to tutor for the Tomb of Urami and cast it. Whenever aggro-control or control has Arcane Lab, Null Rod or Chalice of the Void @ 0 or 1, it's a good time to consider blowing the Tomb of Urami and winning in the air if you can't just Empty the Warrens or Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens and an answer (sometimes that's just too slow tho').

[outsideangel]

So, since we're soon going to be able to run 56 cards, which 4 cards are going to get the axe?

I imagine some combination of land and maybe Cabal Ritual or Chrome Mox.

Thoughts?

[Bryant Cook]

It has terrible synergy with Dark Confidant with a 3BB casting cost, I simply don't think 7 life draw a card is worth it. Since Dark Confidant is amazing in control match-ups.

[BreathWeapon]

It has terrible synergy with Dark Confidant with a 3BB casting cost, I simply don't think 7 life draw a card is worth it. Since Dark Confidant is amazing in control match-ups.

It has problems with mulliganing, Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness to, but on the other side of the argument, Dark Confidant isn't relevant until game 2, and this card can be SBed out for Dark Confidant. It increases Threshold and the number of black cards for Chrome Mox, for what that is worth.

I would consider cutting a Plunge into Darkness, Brainstorm, Chrome Mox, Cabal Ritual and/or a Land for it and see how it works out.

3/4 with Swamp Walk isn't bad either, I could see times where it would be a useful out.

[Bryant Cook]

It has problems with mulliganing, Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness to, but on the other side of the argument, Dark Confidant isn't relevant until game 2, and this card can be SBed out for Dark Confidant. It increases Threshold and the number of black cards for Chrome Mox, for what that is worth.

I would consider cutting a Plunge into Darkness, Brainstorm, Chrome Mox, Cabal Ritual and/or a Land for it and see how it works out.

3/4 with Swamp Walk isn't bad either, I could see times where it would be a useful out.

If I have 5 mana to waste I might as well be winning the game, no? Also, going below 4 Brainstorm? No. I've already made some MD changes and I simply don't have room for a cycler. If I wanted to play 4 less cards in my deck I would've played baubles.

[outsideangel]

If I have 5 mana to waste I might as well be winning the game, no? Also, going below 4 Brainstorm? No. I've already made some MD changes and I simply don't have room for a cycler. If I wanted to play 4 less cards in my deck I would've played baubles.

Bauble != a free cycler. With the baubles, there's a delay in getting the card, which is bad since it slows you down a turn. You can cycle at any time, though, so the zombie doesn't slow you down.

Yes, it can potentially make your mulligans and brainstorms a little worse, but running 56 cards is going to increase the consistency over 60. Essentially, it lets us cut our 4 worst cards. I can't see how this could be a bad thing.

Besides, it's not really about having room. When you build a deck, you can't think about it as starting with a whole lot of cards and then tossing some out. Think about it as starting with an empty list and then adding the best cards.

[Bryant Cook]

So then why don't we play 12 "free slots"? I mean every deck should do it then, not just combo.

[outsideangel]

So then why don't we play 12 "free slots"? I mean every deck should do it then, not just combo.

What 12? If you're referring to the Baubles, I already mentioned that the delay in seeing the card is the reason you wouldn't play them.

[Bryant Cook]

There's not much of a difference between the two, atleast baubles add storm. Which I'm not even advocating. Causing inconsistancy with opening hands, brainstorms, plunges and Diminishing Returns should be more than enough reasons to play other cards over [pay two life: draw a card].

[outsideangel]

There's not much of a difference between the two, atleast baubles add storm. Which I'm not even advocating. Causing inconsistancy with opening hands, brainstorms, plunges and Diminishing Returns should be more than enough reasons to play other cards over [pay two life: draw a card].

Seeing a card now and seeing a card next turn is vastly different in a deck that wants to use all the cards it has to go off now. (Baubles don't even add storm because you have to play them the turn before you go off, unless you don't care about the card, in which case they could be anything.)

Also, it in no way causes inconsistency with Diminishing Returns. If you draw a zombie off of a Returns, you just cycle it. Sure, it can make Brainstorms show you fewer cards, but it can also be used to get you more cards off of a Brainstorm immediately, rather than having to wait to draw them.

I will admit, it's less than optimal when making mulligan decisions, or with Plunge into Darkness, but I feel that it would be a grave mistake not to at least test the card out, since the potential for improving the consistency of the deck by allowing it to run fewer weaker cards could be very potent.

[Bryant Cook]

Its bad with returns because what if you get tons of acceleration and wraith(Could've been Brainstorm or Plunge)(We all know these hands happen alot). Draw into nothing, oh look we fizzel. Brainstorm would've dug two cards deeper and Plunge X cards deeper than Wraith. That's why it's worse with Returns.

I could counter argue that if the Street Wraith was Brainstorm or Plunge that you wouldn't have to wait as long. If the Wraith was Plunge you wouldn't have to wait period.

[outsideangel]

Its bad with returns because what if you get tons of acceleration and wraith(Could've been Brainstorm or Plunge)(We all know these hands happen alot). Draw into nothing, oh look we fizzel. Brainstorm would've dug two cards deeper and Plunge X cards deeper than Wraith. That's why it's worse with Returns.

I could counter argue that if the Street Wraith was Brainstorm or Plunge that you wouldn't have to wait as long. If the Wraith was Plunge you wouldn't have to wait period.

Yeah, but the Brainstorm or Plunge or even your win condition could have been just on top of your deck, too.

Wraith just becomes whatever card was on top of your library. You can get hosed by crap hands drawing seven cards just the same as drawing seven cards and then cycling one, except that in the latter example you actually have a better chance of seeing specific cards. You have a better chance of seeing good cards because there are functionally fewer cards that you can draw.

Saying that Wraith decreases the quality of a Diminishing Returns is just wrong. If anything, it increases it.

[Bryant Cook]

Yeah, but the Brainstorm or Plunge or even your win condition could have been just on top of your deck, too.

Wraith just becomes whatever card was on top of your library. You can get hosed by crap hands drawing seven cards just the same as drawing seven cards and then cycling one, except that in the latter example you actually have a better chance of seeing specific cards. You have a better chance of seeing good cards because there are functionally fewer cards that you can draw.

Saying that Wraith decreases the quality of a Diminishing Returns is just wrong. If anything, it increases it.

I'm supposed to rely on the top card of my library? Why don't people keep no land hands with landstill? I mean, it may be on the top, right? Compared to Chrome Mox yes, the Wraith increases chances, not to Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness. You have a better chance of success with Brainstorm and Plunge than a cycle card.

[outsideangel]

I'm supposed to rely on the top card of my library? Why don't people keep no land hands with landstill? I mean, it may be on the top, right?

Last time I checked, you can't mulligan the hand you draw off a Returns.

Yes, Wraith makes your mulliganing decisions harder. Not because it shows you less than seven actually cards, but because you have no information about what the card it will turn it to will be.

But this absolutely does not apply to Diminishing Returns, because you always keep the new hand. You don't have to make a decision based on guessing what the top card is, because there is no decision, and you are going to see the top card.

[Bryant Cook]

My point wasn't on mulligans it was you don't base card choices/situations on the top card. It's bad deckbuilding.

That doesn't change the fact that it's simply not better at winning the game or digging than Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness.

[outsideangel]

You're right. It's not better at winning the game than Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness. In fact, it's not better at winning the game than anything.

That's not the point. Some other cards in your deck are better at winning the game, though. Wraith lets you see those cards more often.

[Bryant Cook]

You're right. It's not better at winning the game than Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness. In fact, it's not better at winning the game than anything.

That's not the point. Some other cards in your deck are better at winning the game, though. Wraith lets you see those cards more often.

Both Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness have card selection where as Wraith only sees the top card of your library. Card selection in TES is what wins games, what if the top card of your deck was a land and you needed Infernal? Which happened to be two cards lower. If we wanted random draw in TES we would be playing Meditates and Bargains. TES is tutor based combo and a random draw 1 isn't going to help you. TES is very unbalanced when it comes down to it, too much acceleration and very little tutors. This is why we don't play random draw X's besides Diminishing Returns. Cutting down on cards that find tutors is a horrible idea.

EDIT: To be more clear, the chances of you getting what you need off of a simple cycle are slim, very slim.

[outsideangel]

Both Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness have card selection where as Wraith only sees the top card of your library. Card selection in TES is what wins games, what if the top card of your deck was a land and you needed Infernal? Which happened to be two cards lower. If we wanted random draw in TES we would be playing Meditates and Bargains. TES is tutor based combo and a random draw 1 isn't going to help you. TES is very unbalanced when it comes down to it, too much acceleration and very little tutors. This is why we don't play random draw X's besides Diminishing Returns. Cutting down on cards that find tutors is a horrible idea.

Err...you do understand that this has no mana cost, right? For a combo deck that cares very little about its life total this is essentially free. As in, it requires no investment of resources.

It's not draw. It's not a spell. All it does is let you play 4 less cards in your deck, at the cost of making mulligan decisions harder and Plunge slightly worse and sometimes 2 life.

Don't compare it to Brainstorm. Don't compare it to Plunge. In fact, don't compare it to anything. When you evaluate this card's strength, you do so by taking the weakest card in the deck, and comparing it to the next-to-weakest.

The question is, is gap in power between the weakest and next-to-weakest cards in the deck enough to warrant making your mulligans and Plunges and life total sometimes worse in order to close it?

[emidln]

outsideangel, what you fail to understand is that in an accel-heavy deck that relies on tutors to find the business, playing 56 cards doesn't really help that much. We need the acceleration as well as redundancy (something not provided by wrath) due to Diminishing Returns. What TES needs, if anything, is a better tutor than Plunge into Darkness. Unfortunately, Vampiric Tutor is banned, and Wizards doesn't appear to be ready to make another mistake like that again.

As far as only marginally hurting Plunge, to fully excercise the power of wrath, i.e. to play 56 cards, you need to pay 8 life. This conflicts with our ability to Plunge twice, while hurting our redundancy for the RFG 10 clause of Diminshing Returns. It even makes mulligans harder. This card seems tempting at first, but upon analysis (and I'm willing to bet, Testing) it is awful.

btw, the weakest card in the deck is Underdiscovered Paraise (can't be replaced due to affecting land percentage), followed up by Infernal Tutor. Neither of these cards are replaceable. Brainstorm and Plunge are both significantly more powerful than the worst two cards in the deck, which are themselves integral to the deck. Designing a combo deck by "power level" is pretty bad to begin with. If Long did that, they'd obv play Channel, but it isn't synergistic.

[BreathWeapon]

There are two means of evaluating this card,

The first is to replace card X, where X is a specific 4x in the deck, and the effects of the Street Wraith can be evaluated against that specific card, or replace cards A, B, C and D, where A, B, C and D are 1x of a 4x in the deck to manipulate the margins and create a 56 card deck that increases the odds of drawing the best cards.

The first means of evaluating the card leads us to replacing the worst card in the deck with Street Wraith, and I believe we can all agree that the worst card in this deck is Cabal Ritual. The question now becomes, does replacing Cabal Riutal and reducing the deck to 56 cards, increasing the statistical chances of drawing into a superior accelerant or a business card, worth losing 4 accelerants?

[Place holder, I don't have the time for the statistics on this, but I suspect cutting Cabal Ritual to increase the chances of drawing the rest of the cards in the deck is the best choice.]

The second means of evaluating the card leads to replacing the following, 1xInfernal Tutor, 1xPlunge into Darkness, 2xCabal Ritual. To explain the choices, a 56 card deck permits the number of cards in each slot to be decreased, so I trimmed the worst cards in each slot. 1xInfernal Tutor goes to the SB, reducing the tutors to 7 and increasing the power of Burning Wish, 1xPlunge into Darkness is removed to decrease the number of 2cc cards and manipulation (don't cut Brainstorm), 2xCabal Ritual are removed to decrease the number of Rituals, even tho' it isn't proportional to the other slots; Right of Flame is an option, to put it in the SB for Burning Wish, but we've argued that before.

The second means of evaluating the card is the most difficult, and this is the one that is going to lead to the most of "if Street Wraith were cards A,B,C or D" counter arguments as well as botched mulligans.

Right now, I'm testing the first means of evaluating the card, since it's the simplest to do and the easiest to argue.

It seems promising, Cycling into another accelerant, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal or Right of Flame is almost always better than the Cabal Ritual, and Cycling into another land isn't bad if you don't already have two, tho' Cycling into a second Chrome Mox can suck.

Cycling into a Xantid Swarm is never bad, IMO. Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness means the deck is going to have to cast either one of them to find another accelerant, but that's not a bad thing. Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish can be goood/bad, Infernal Tutor has to have an accelerant in hand, and Burning Wish has to be able to tutor for an accelerant, otherwise it's just a business card. About the worst cards the deck can get are Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains; Diminishing Returns is at least hard castable, and Empty the Warrens completely changes the nature of your hand.

The card doesn't seem that bad since there are two clear "worst cards" in the deck and one is more of a necessary evil than the other.

I'm not advocating that the card should/shouldn't be added, but dismissing it out right is a mistake in my opinion.

[Bane of the Living]

I popped into this thread really hoping no one was suggesting Street Wraith in this deck. Im so disappointed. You cant have this card in your deck with Confidant, if your answer is thats what you'd side out, why bother with it in the first place..

[MattH]

At least Urza's Bauble counted for Storm. Street Wraith is godawful here.

[BreathWeapon]

I popped into this thread really hoping no one was suggesting Street Wraith in this deck. Im so disappointed. You cant have this card in your deck with Confidant, if your answer is thats what you'd side out, why bother with it in the first place..

Because Dark Confidant isn't relevant until game 2, and Cabal Ritual gets SBed out for Dark Confidant in a lot of match ups, and Dark Confidant isn't SBed in against all match ups.

@MattHH.

Baubles draw a card on the following turn, Wraith draws the card on the same turn, and the card Wraith draws adds storm and mana. I don't mind cutting Cabal Rituals at all, mulliganing hasn't been a problem and the life loss isn't a significant factor so far.

I knee jerked at the card to, but once I learned what to expect, it turned out to be better than I thought.

[3eowulf]

I agree with BreathWeapon on the fact that the cycler could easily be included as a 4-of (even in place of cabal ritual) and switched out for the confidant in approriate match ups.
Even the land-cycler could warrant inclusion (for obvious deck-thinning and card quality reasons).

Unfortunately as already stated they would really mess with mulligan decisions and definitely screw brainstorm.

And while i feel that a bit of gambit with the opening hand is acceptable, the fact that Brainstorm will no longer be an Ancestral Recall might be a little too much.

Is the cycler an auto-include? No.
Is it worth testing? Yes.
Is the land cycler worth testing too? Yes.

[matelml]

I think this cycler is very good because in the WORST case, instead of drawing the worst card in the deck you will cycle into the second worst card in the deck, which is already good.I do think we might want to consider running 3 because having 2 in your hand can be a significant lifeloss together with city and plunge, against aggro. I think we need at least 12 tutors so I wouldn't take out plunge and definitly not infernal tutor, but 1 chrome mox, 1 land (running 10 land), and 1 empty the warrens(move to SB). I don't like having more than 1 maindeck empty the warrens, because I play more and more people who know the deck and bring in hate against it, especialy engineered explosives and pyroclasm. The chrome moxes I hate having 2 of so I was already playing with less, and running 10 land on essentially 57 cards, where I heard 10 on 60 was already OK, should be fine.

I also wonder how wizards could print such a powerfull card, I mean burn should run it as a four of, ******** probably(creates ********), any combo deck that doesn't care about aggro, and in vintage I think any deck would run it.:confused: Am I missing something? This just seems too good.

[MattH]

This is still going to suffer the main problem of Bauble, which is that it affects mulligan decisions in a bad way.

[etrigan]

I always felt that the main problem with Bauble was that it doesn't get you the card until the next turn. This gets it to you immediately, and at Instant speed no less.

[Bryant Cook]

I'll continue winning and let everyone else decide on if the card is playable or not. I've played a few matches here and there with the card in it and dislike it. To each his own, hopefully I'll see some of you in the winner's bracket.

[lukatron2]

I think this cycler is very good because in the WORST case, instead of drawing the worst card in the deck you will cycle into the second worst card in the deck, which is already good.I do think we might want to consider running 3 because having 2 in your hand can be a significant lifeloss together with city and plunge, against aggro. I think we need at least 12 tutors so I wouldn't take out plunge and definitly not infernal tutor, but 1 chrome mox, 1 land (running 10 land), and 1 empty the warrens(move to SB). I don't like having more than 1 maindeck empty the warrens, because I play more and more people who know the deck and bring in hate against it, especialy engineered explosives and pyroclasm. The chrome moxes I hate having 2 of so I was already playing with less, and running 10 land on essentially 57 cards, where I heard 10 on 60 was already OK, should be fine.

I also wonder how wizards could print such a powerfull card, I mean burn should run it as a four of, ******** probably(creates ********), any combo deck that doesn't care about aggro, and in vintage I think any deck would run it.:confused: Am I missing something? This just seems too good.

Ughhh...Are you serious dude?...lol...Please tell me your kidding and that you don't think that this card is really that "broken"...I mean, yea it thins the deck but really how good is that?...I mean SERIOUSLY...I would much rather leave in the three cards you named because they help keep the consistency of the deck...you even said it yourself up there...it would be a lot of life loss w/city and plunge...but really, the card essentially reads "replace this card with the top card of your deck and loose two life". The only deck I can really see it shining in is Ichorid...Most decks should be designed/built solid enough where they don't have random 3-4 cards that just suck and should be replaced with a "free" draw 1 spell and if they do, than I guess that deck isn't all that good in the first place.

[BreathWeapon]

One of the best cards for combo in Time Spiral has just been spoiled,

Magus of the Future 2UUU

Creature-Human Wizard

Play with the top card of your library revealed.

You may play the top card of your library.

2/3

It's time to start considering Living Wish in TES,

1) Minion of the Wastes, for 1G and 3BBB, the deck gains an unrestricted Tinker->Colossus.

2) Magus of the Future, for 1G and 2UUU, the deck gains Future Sight. Altho' at the cost of UUU the deck has to use LED in order to cast it, it either allows the deck to win now or win after it's untap step.

3) Magus of the Jar, for 1G and 3UU, the deck gains an unrestricted Memory Jar. Unlike Magus of the Future, the deck doesn't have to use LED in order to cast it, and unlike Diminishing Returns the opponent doesn't get to keep his new hand.

Other notable considerations, the deck can tutor for creatures or lands removed via Plunge into Darkness, Xantid Swarm, golden lands,Tomb of Urami or Cabal Pit etc. or it can tutor for cards removed via Swords to Plowshares, Xantid Swarm, as well as the SB Dark Confidants.

Some possible inclusions in the SB,

Xantid Swarm, if the MD can spare it.
Mesmeric Fiend, as a pseudo Xantid Swarm if the MD can't spare it.
Ancient Tomb, 2 mana and a land drop.
Kagemaro, First to Suffer, cost effective threat or a Wrath of God.
Fire Imp, removal and Goblin chump blocker.
Woodripper, costly mass removal.
Goblin Tinkerer, cheap mass removal
Gorilla Shaman, cheaper mass removal
Indrik Stomphowler, costly threat and removal.
Uktabi Orangutang, cheap removal and Goblin chump blocker
Tin-Street Hooligan, cheaper removal and Goblin chum blocker.
Elvish Scrapper, cheap removal with Summoning Sickness
Storm Entity, cheap threat that has synergy with storm
Jotun Grunt, cheap threat that hoses Threshold.

Having a tutor that can find this format's equivalent of restricted bombs in Vintage with unrestricted Lion's Eye Diamond that also adds more utility to the SB and redundancy to the MD seems like it should be considered.I realize that it would require changes to the MD and SB, and I'm not certain what those changes should be, but it's bound to be worth investigating at the least.

[matelml]

I think it's very good and am going to play this card to prove it's good.
I changed my mind about taking one plunge out, look at this:
Some percentages:

Now playing 12/60 tutors=0.2

-1 plunge, chrome mox, land, empty the warrens:11/56 tutors=0.1964, which is almost no difference.
amount of 0 mana manasources: without:19/60=0.3166, with:17/56=0.3035, again almost no diference (the amount of land is even less difference:11/60=0.183, 10/56=0.1780.

I even found situations it is good with brainstorm. If you only have black mana, a LED and use brainstorm and brainstorm into wraith, wish, swarm, then you can put the wish on top, cycle and in response crack the led for red. Situations like this happened to me several times in testing.I see mulliganing becomes more difficult, but not impossible. When you would only keep the hand if you would draw a certain card you mull, except if the chances of drawing thet card or something similar are more than 50%.

Also I think living wish is a horrible idea because all those things you mentioned cost way too much mana and can only be done when you have a LED and a really good hand.

I mean no offense with my posts and respect all your opinions. Also I might look like a noob because of my post count, but I have been reading this thread since the beginning.

[BreathWeapon]

I know the idea is radical, but it's no more radical then when we suggested using Burning Wish in combo last summer; Burning Wish is more synergistic, but Living Wish is more powerful.

Living Wish for Minion of the Waste is the same amount of mana as Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chains, and it can be cast over the course of two turns.

Living Wish for Magus of the Jar is appr. the same amount of mana as Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns, and it can be cast over the course of two turns, and unlike Diminishing Returns there's no chance of it failing or backfiring.

Living Wish + LED for Magus of the Future is a Dark Confidant on steroids.

Xantid Swarm + Living Wish is the equivalent of having a counter for a Swords to Plowshares in hand.

Living Wish for Dark Confidant is a tutor for Dark Confidant that doesn't cost life.

Living Wish for Ancient Tomb is +1 storm and another land drop.

Living Wish for Storm Entity is extremely good after an accelerant heavy hand or a Draw7.

I'm not advocating that the deck should use four of them, but there are a lot of cards that could be cut to increase the number of tutors in the deck, from the second Tendrils of Agony, second and/or third Empty the Warrens, fourth Infernal Tutor, fourth Chrome Mox, fourth Cabal Ritual or the MD Diminshing Returns.

I have no idea about what to do with the SB, I suggest just adding everything you want and cut what you don't need as you fail to wish for it in testing.

Just start with Living Wish in hand and goldfish with it for awhile, the card turns more tricks than Burning Wishing in this deck.

Edit: When Street Wraith is in the SB it lets Living Wish Cycle.

[Nightmare]

All of those plans are basically worse than Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens or Tendrils.

Magus of Jar - Takes another turn to work.
Magus of Future Sight - Way more difficult to set up (3GUUU) than Returns, stalls on land.
Dark Confidant - Does nothing to help win that turn
Ancient Tomb - Since when is colorless mana an issue?
Xantid Swarm - Best when dropped turn 1. Wish as a counter for StP is a pretty weak point of debate, too. Why not run Pull From Eternity while we're at it?

[BreathWeapon]

All of those plans are basically worse than Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens or Tendrils.

Magus of Jar - Takes another turn to work.
Magus of Future Sight - Way more difficult to set up (3GUUU) than Returns, stalls on land.
Dark Confidant - Does nothing to help win that turn
Ancient Tomb - Since when is colorless mana an issue?
Xantid Swarm - Best when dropped turn 1. Wish as a counter for StP is a pretty weak point of debate, too. Why not run Pull From Eternity while we're at it?

I agree, but it isn't a question of removing Burning Wish for Living Wish, it's a question of whether or not the card is functional in the MD and whether or not it can replace mediocre cards with out butchering the SB.

Magus of the Jar-Untapping with Memory Jar isn't a bad thing, and the opponent doesn't get to keep his new hand.

Magus of the Future-It requires one more mana and LED where Diminishing Returns doesn't, but Future Sight remains on the board and doesn't give the opponent a new hand.

There are going to be one to two lands in hand, possibly a land off of Brainstorm and lands RFGed via Plunge into Darkness.

I'm not certain how effective it is at the moment, but if Keeper could be modified to use Future Sight and Burning Wish for a combo kill, I imagine TES isn't that bad off as it is.

Dark Confidant-It doesn't have to, if you're wishing for Dark Confidant, you're planning to win over the long haul.

Ancient Tomb-2 colorless mana reduces the amount of colored mana that has to be used when casting cards with colorless mana requirements, if that isn't enough, it can wish for an RFGed golden land after Plunge into Darkness or you can add another land to the SB.

I agree that Xantid Swarm should be MD, but it's not as if having synergy with Xantid Swarm after a Swords to Plowshares and Plunge into Darkness is a bad thing.

I actually think Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes is stronger than Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens, considering the amount of hate aggro-control SBs in against Empty the Warrens and the chances that they'll SB out Swords to Plowshares.

Just dismissing the card is a bad idea, it offers TES non-LED based bombs as well as LED based bombs to consider. Memory Jar and Future Sight have been broken in combo before, Minion of the Wastes is under rated, wishing for Dark Confidant or a land drop offers a small ball approach and at worst it Cycles with Street Wraith.

I realize the deck and the SB would have to be retooled, but just for now, starting with one in the first seven or eight cards and an unlimited SB is useful for testing the merits of the card, the rest can be figured out later.

Dismissing it out right is a mistake, let's at least be certain it isn't worth it.

[matelml]

This minion of wastes dies more quickly than empty the warrens, can be blocked and countered. The magi are really not comparable to their enchantments. The jar has summening sickness which is really bad and they both die very easily. You probably won't be able to win the turn you wish for them so you lose your storm count. The landdrop idea is bad because if you can cast the living wish without accceleration you won't really need land and if you use accelaration for the wish for land you traded accel for land where the accel is better.

I don't understand why confidant would be so good in the SB because wouldn't it do the same as night's whisper in this deck? It probably won't live more than 2 turns before it dies, needs to block or you can combo, so then whisper would be better, where I believe whisper is bad in this deck. I like to run duress instead of confidant. It helps against hymn,duress,chalice,pyrostatic pillar,other combo decks and counters if you don't need to use ill-gotten gains.

[Bryant Cook]

I agree, but it isn't a question of removing Burning Wish for Living Wish, it's a question of whether or not the card is functional in the MD and whether or not it can replace mediocre cards with out butchering the SB. Are you suggesting eight wishboard tutors? That's rediculous and if you're not it's still rediculous. Where's Jack Elgin to put out fires when you need him to? Street Wraith now this? Absolutely terrible. I'm starting to think people on this site come up with bad ideas to ruin decks, I mean look what happened to Hannifish; it got worse over time.


Magus of the Jar-Untapping with Memory Jar isn't a bad thing, and the opponent doesn't get to keep his new hand.

Magus of the Future-It requires one more mana and LED where Diminishing Returns doesn't, but Future Sight remains on the board and doesn't give the opponent a new hand.

There are going to be one to two lands in hand, possibly a land off of Brainstorm and lands RFGed via Plunge into Darkness. Swords to Plowshares is why most decks don't play Living Wish. The most played removal in the format. Wait...wait... Are you saying you like passing the turn with a combo deck after you comboed out to get a 3/3? That even dies to more removal than Swords to Plowshares. Diminishing Returns has the same effect without timewalking yourself, and it doesn't lose to removal of any kind. Breathweapon can we be honest here, do you really think this is a good idea? Future site? I mean I could've played the enchantment before what makes me want to play a version of it that dies to removal? Creatures are terrible in this format (Sans Xantid Swarm <3 that guy). That is why I play combo.


I'm not certain how effective it is at the moment, but if Keeper could be modified to use Future Sight and Burning Wish for a combo kill, I imagine TES isn't that bad off as it is.

Dark Confidant-It doesn't have to, if you're wishing for Dark Confidant, you're planning to win over the long haul.

Ancient Tomb-2 colorless mana reduces the amount of colored mana that has to be used when casting cards with colorless mana requirements, if that isn't enough, it can wish for an RFGed golden land after Plunge into Darkness or you can add another land to the SB. TES is fine as it was, before Wraith, before Living Wish and it's easily killed targets. I think we should play Golden Wish, I mean C'mon it tutors for LED AND HELM. If we play Cunning Wish I can play my Yawgmoth's will Second Sunrise. How come these bad ideas haven't been brought up? I'm starting to wonder if people think before they post these terrible ideas. "Mountain Goat in red splash SOLIDARITY!?!?"


I agree that Xantid Swarm should be MD, but it's not as if having synergy with Xantid Swarm after a Swords to Plowshares and Plunge into Darkness is a bad thing.

I actually think Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes is stronger than Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens, considering the amount of hate aggro-control SBs in against Empty the Warrens and the chances that they'll SB out Swords to Plowshares.

Just dismissing the card is a bad idea, it offers TES non-LED based bombs as well as LED based bombs to consider. Memory Jar and Future Sight have been broken in combo before, Minion of the Wastes is under rated, wishing for Dark Confidant or a land drop offers a small ball approach and at worst it Cycles with Street Wraith. Why would people SB out Swords to plowshares if they see you're playing Living Wish and Xantid Swarm? Seems dumb to me. Minion of the Wastes is also terrible, seeing as this deck plays ping lands and Plunge into Darkness. Also like every other reason to not play creatures as combo cards, Swords to Plowshares. TES already has non-LED bombs, since you don't need LED to cast anything. Wishing for a land that doesn't tap for any color and deals you two or any land for that matter is terrible. Wasting mana and a valuable tutor on a land is rediculous. "Small ball approach" I thought TES's plan was go big or go home. Just like every other combo deck out there. If you want to "Small Ball" things I'd recommend playing combo control.

[Citrus-God]

"Small ball approach" I thought TES's plan was go big or go home. Just like every other combo deck out there. If you want to "Small Ball" things I'd recommend playing combo control.

Well, it's nice to be able to play "Small ball," until you wear your opponent out, then you apply those "dynamic homerun heroics" as the game progresses in your favor. Running cards like Dark Confidant basically says "win small until you win big."

[etrigan]

I'm starting to think people on this site come up with bad ideas to ruin decks, I mean look what happened to Hannifish; it got worse over time.


Yes. People adovcated running a 2nd EtW main and removal of Priest of Gix and Trinket Mage in order to absolutely demolish the decks competitiveness. That's what we're here for.

I agree, Living Wish is probably not a good idea for this deck. Maybe for another deck, but not this one.

But I cant understand how you can shoot down every single fucking idea without trying them. Maybe it will be great. Maybe it will blow. Who the fuck knows? Two years ago, people were debating how many Goblin Lackeys were the right number, and comparing them to Mons Goblin Raiders. No one knows fuck all without testing, and dismissing new ideas as 'absolutely terrible' is certainly not the way to make improvements. I'm almost surprised the deck got this far with that attitude.

[z38gm]

Yes. People adovcated running a 2nd EtW main and removal of Priest of Gix and Trinket Mage in order to absolutely demolish the decks competitiveness. That's what we're here for.

I agree, Living Wish is probably not a good idea for this deck. Maybe for another deck, but not this one.

But I cant understand how you can shoot down every single fucking idea without trying them. Maybe it will be great. Maybe it will blow. Who the fuck knows? Two years ago, people were debating how many Goblin Lackeys were the right number, and comparing them to Mons Goblin Raiders. No one knows fuck all without testing, and dismissing new ideas as 'absolutely terrible' is certainly not the way to make improvements. I'm almost surprised the deck got this far with that attitude.

I think you are missing the point. It seems he only says the bad ideas are shit...there have been mostly bad ideas.

[BreathWeapon]

Are you suggesting eight wishboard tutors? That's rediculous and if you're not it's still rediculous. Where's Jack Elgin to put out fires when you need him to? Street Wraith now this? Absolutely terrible. I'm starting to think people on this site come up with bad ideas to ruin decks, I mean look what happened to Hannifish; it got worse over time.

Swords to Plowshares is why most decks don't play Living Wish. The most played removal in the format. Wait...wait... Are you saying you like passing the turn with a combo deck after you comboed out to get a 3/3? That even dies to more removal than Swords to Plowshares. Diminishing Returns has the same effect without timewalking yourself, and it doesn't lose to removal of any kind. Breathweapon can we be honest here, do you really think this is a good idea? Future site? I mean I could've played the enchantment before what makes me want to play a version of it that dies to removal? Creatures are terrible in this format (Sans Xantid Swarm <3 that guy). That is why I play combo.

TES is fine as it was, before Wraith, before Living Wish and it's easily killed targets. I think we should play Golden Wish, I mean C'mon it tutors for LED AND HELM. If we play Cunning Wish I can play my Yawgmoth's will Second Sunrise. How come these bad ideas haven't been brought up? I'm starting to wonder if people think before they post these terrible ideas. "Mountain Goat in red splash SOLIDARITY!?!?"

Why would people SB out Swords to plowshares if they see you're playing Living Wish and Xantid Swarm? Seems dumb to me. Minion of the Wastes is also terrible, seeing as this deck plays ping lands and Plunge into Darkness. Also like every other reason to not play creatures as combo cards, Swords to Plowshares. TES already has non-LED bombs, since you don't need LED to cast anything. Wishing for a land that doesn't tap for any color and deals you two or any land for that matter is terrible. Wasting mana and a valuable tutor on a land is rediculous. "Small ball approach" I thought TES's plan was go big or go home. Just like every other combo deck out there. If you want to "Small Ball" things I'd recommend playing combo control.

Good idea or bad idea, all reasonable ideas are worth testing, and all tutors at 2cc are a reasonable idea in TES. I'm not going to debate whether or not there is or isn't something wrong with TES, but that doesn't mean that there aren't improvements to be made or options to be considered, a deck, theory or idea starts to grow stagnant at the moment it ceases to be constantly re-evaluated and becomes dogma, just look at Keeper and control.

No, I'm not stating that I like to pass the turn after I combo out to get a 3/3, I'm stating that after I Living Wish for a Magus of the Jar and cast him with out Lion's Eye Diamond, be it in one turn or over the course of multiple turns, I don't mind having to wait a turn before I can untap and combo out; people passed the turn after casting Tinker or Memory Jar in Vintage often enough, and people passed the turn after casting Future Sight all of the time.

Future Sight in the past had to be in the MD, and it had to be the target of Infernal Tutor, and Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens were both just better as hard castable alternatives to the card (at least I assume so, I've never seen some one use Future Sight in storm combo or even Academy Rector before).

Minion of the Wastes is bad after a Plunge Into Darkness, granted, but that just removes Minion of the Wastes as an out, not make Minion of the Wastes suck.

I'm not going to debate Swords to Plowshares, we all know this card is an answer to Xantid Swarm and Living Wish, but answers shouldn't prevent threats from being put into a deck. Threshold has a hard time having or finding one Swords to Plowshares for Xantid Swarm, let alone two Swords to Plowshares for Xantid Swarm and a Minion of the Wastes behind it etc. I look at it like Burning Long, the opponent could Force of Will the Xantid Swarm, the opponent could Mana Drain the Tinker but in the end the third threat did him in.

Combo's plan isn't go big or go home, it's winning, however combo chooses to achieve the goal, and the number of choices it has at its disposal is what's important. We all know that TES vs aggro-control is often a grueling match up, being able to tutor for Dark Confidant with out a loss of life or tutor for a land drop (you seriously never Infernal Tutor for another Dark Ritual or Burning Wish for another Right of Flame over the course of the game?) is just another option the deck has at it's disposal; I mean, we do SB in Dark Confidant against the aggro-control and control match ups right?)

There's nothing wrong with having two wish boards, it's been done before, the deck just has to be certain that it's SB is balanced between the two wishes and it can still SB in the cards it needs to improve its bad match ups. Combo is the best possible candidate for this, because it's SB tends to be the least important thing in swinging match ups unless it's doing something extreme like boarding in Force of Will and enough blue to support it.

TES doesn't have access to a non-Storm based win condition or a non-Diminishing Returns based bomb (unless you're playing Infernal Contract in the SB?), I'd like to see what these cards can do before I just dismiss them out right. Besides, there are a lot of respectable people testing Street Wraith right now and there have been two successful combo decks with Living Wish and LED in the past, it's not like either of those ideas are unwarranted.

Remember where we were with 5c Tendrils in the summer? This deck has seen a lot more jank cards than Living Wish.

[Bryant Cook]

The deck that was SHLong and the deck that is here now are two completly different decks with different goals. TES just happens to be an example of what new sets can do to a format. Once you play an archtype or deck for as long as I have you'll know whats going to be playable in deck X. Yes, I advocated Trinket Mage for a long time and this isn't the deck it fit in, however, I wasn't going to have terrible cards replace it. Yes, neither Trinket Mage or any card mentioned (until someone mentioned Brainstorm) were great but I choose the lesser of two evils, oh well. SHLong was semi-based on Second Sunrise and TES on "Do I have 6 mana to win with Ill-Gotten Gains?" the two decks are fundamentally different along with thier playstyle. I've played storm decks for a very long time and I happen to be good at it, I can tell on paper if a card will be worth it or not. You can too to an extent, everyone knows Serra Angel won't ever be played in SXS. It's just a matter of how familiar you are with the format and the cards in it. Don't get me wrong I test most cards in TES and there's some I don't when we were arguing Rite vs SSG, I tested SSG and didn't like it. Just because some doesn't post thier results with a card doesn't mean they haven't tried it.

EDIT: I hate when people post when I'm posting. This was directed at Etrignananamn or whatever his name is.

EDIT 2: To avoid double posting

Good idea or bad idea, all reasonable ideas are worth testing, and all tutors at 2cc are a reasonable idea in TES. I'm not going to debate whether or not there is or isn't something wrong with TES, but that doesn't mean that there aren't improvements to be made or options to be considered, a deck, theory or idea starts to grow stagnant at the moment it ceases to be constantly re-evaluated and becomes dogma, just look at Keeper and control. I've tested most of the bad ideas that you posted, I'll probably end up testing Living Wish when I have more time. However, I still have the right to say it looks like utter crap on paper. This is an example: If a deck wins a large event 15 times in a row and isn't stopped is there reason to change it? I don't believe so, it's when that deck is finally hated out or is slowly becoming less successful is when you change it not when it's at it's peak.


No, I'm not stating that I like to pass the turn after I combo out to get a 3/3, I'm stating that after I Living Wish for a Magus of the Jar and cast him with out Lion's Eye Diamond, be it in one turn or over the course of multiple turns, I don't mind having to wait a turn before I can untap and combo out; people passed the turn after casting Tinker or Memory Jar in Vintage often enough, and people passed the turn after casting Future Sight all of the time. How slow is that? Honestly? 4RUU AND waiting a turn. I could've just won off returns and not suffered a loss to Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt. You're going to cast him without LED? I see that being painfully slow and subpar compared to what the deck can currently do. In order to cast him without LED you'll be so far behind in turns and not to mention card advantage wasted (Your acceleration) on skipping a turn. Combo is all about speed and consistancy, this card doesn't help either.


Future Sight in the past had to be in the MD, and it had to be the target of Infernal Tutor, and Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens were both just better as hard castable alternatives to the card (at least I assume so, I've never seen some one use Future Sight in storm combo or even Academy Rector before). I'm lacking to see a point here.


Minion of the Wastes is bad after a Plunge Into Darkness, granted, but that just removes Minion of the Wastes as an out, not make Minion of the Wastes suck. When your deck deals yourself damage and lifeloss more than likely adding "outs" that require life isn't a good idea; that's what makes it "Suck".


I'm not going to debate Swords to Plowshares, we all know this card is an answer to Xantid Swarm and Living Wish, but answers shouldn't prevent threats from being put into a deck. Threshold has a hard time having or finding one Swords to Plowshares for Xantid Swarm, let alone two Swords to Plowshares for Xantid Swarm and a Minion of the Wastes behind it etc. I look at it like Burning Long, the opponent could Force of Will the Xantid Swarm, the opponent could Mana Drain the Tinker but in the end the third threat did him in. There's a difference between Swordsing a Xantid and Swording whatever horrible idea you have in your Living Wish board. Swordsing a Xantid is one for one, Swordsing what you casted after Living Wish is card disadvantage from wasting acceleration and a tutor on a card that was answered by one card. That is the difference. When your threat is answered by the most common removal spell in the game yes, it should be considered.


Combo's plan isn't go big or go home, it's winning, however combo chooses to achieve the goal, and the number of choices it has at its disposal is what's important. We all know that TES vs aggro-control is often a grueling match up, being able to tutor for Dark Confidant with out a loss of life or tutor for a land drop (you seriously never Infernal Tutor for another Dark Ritual or Burning Wish for another Right of Flame over the course of the game?) is just another option the deck has at it's disposal; I mean, we do SB in Dark Confidant after all. Combo's first plan will always be "Go big or go home" there's no reason to play a slow combo deck. If it's second or third plan is "Slow balling it" I could see that happening but the way you referenced it made it seem like it was the primary plan. Dark Confidant is for lost card advantage in the Control and Discard match-up. I generally do not have 0 cards in hand and 4 mana avaiable against control to tutor up Dark Confidant nonetheless have him live.


There's nothing wrong with having two wish boards, it's been done before, the deck just has to be certain that it's SB is balanced between the two wishes and it can still SB in the cards it needs to improve its bad match ups. Combo is the best possible candidate for this, because it's SB tends to be the least important thing in swinging match ups unless it's doing something extreme like boarding in Force of Will and enough blue to support it. Yes there is. It causes inconsistancy MD, SB, and leaves litterally no room for SB'ing.


TES doesn't have access to a non-Storm based win condition or a non-Diminishing Returns based bomb (unless you're playing Infernal Contract in the SB?), I'd like to see what these cards can do before I just dismiss them out right. Besides, there are a lot of respectable people testing Street Wraith right now and there have been two successful combo decks with Living Wish and LED in the past, it's not like either of those ideas are unwarranted. YES it does, I can't count how many times there has been a Chalice/Pillar/Arcane Lab on the table and I got a 5/5 Flying demon and ran over thier head.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree with a lot of that in principle, but not all of it in practice.

The point on Swords to Plowshares is that if the opponent Swords to Plowshares the first Xantid Swarm then the odds of them being able to Swords to Plowshares the Living Wish->Xantid Swarm, Living Wish->Dark Confidant or the Living Wish->Magus of the Future, Magus of the Jar or Minions of the Wastes before either of them can win the game aren't that bad. I realize that all of the Living Wish win conditions and engine cards have to take Swords to Plowshares into consideration as a a counter spell.

Dark Confidant and Magus of the Jar are good tutor targets, tutoring for Dark Confidant with Living Wish is the equivalent of tutoring for a Xantid Swarm with Plunge into Darkness, both of them draw out the Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares, except Living Wish doesn't cause life loss and if the opponent doesn't have an answer to Dark Confidant the deck is going to be winning over the long haul instead of right after the card is cast. Tutoring for Magus of the Jar is one of three things, with LED it's a Draw 7 that requires the deck to lose it's storm and untap, but with LED the deck has Magus of the Future to consider instead, with out LED it's either the second or third threat that overwhelms the opponent in a chain of threats or a top deck. I do agree it seems to be the slowest of the wish targets, but it's effect is so strong that if it weren't as slow as it is it would be banned from the format, ala Memory Jar.

I'm still not certain whether or not Magus of the Future is busted in this deck or bad in this deck, sometimes it wins in spectacular fashion and other times it coughs up lands, but if it remains on the board it is bound to win the game. I've had a huge amount of success with Minion of the Wastes in all of the combo decks I have used it in, it's not an option after Plunge into Darkness, but pain lands aren't an issue and it's between a one turn and two turn clock against most decks.

Tutoring for a land hasn't been a bad thing, Ancient Tomb is alright, but Tomb of Urami seems to be one of the better options because it produces mana in the short term and becomes a threat in the long term. I realize the MD has Tomb of Urami as a threat, but I don't consider him to be a threat in the traditional sense, where the opponent is countering him or losing the game (obviously he can't counter him, but you know what I mean) or a threat that can be tutored for or searched for (Hellbent Infernal Tutor aside); he's sort of this 5/5 Flyer that came along for the ride, we've all won with him before, but it was rather random when we did.

Comparing Living Wish to Burning Wish isn't a fair comparison, IMO, because the two cards aren't competing for the same slots, and despite being similar, the nature of their targets are radically different from one another.

I'm still testing the deck with one Living Wish in hand and an unlimited SB, but if I had to make cuts to the MD and SB, I'd go with cutting the second Tendrils of Agony, second Empty the Warrens and maybe the MD Diminishing Returns if it's good enough.

The SB doesn't seem that difficult to restructure, my basic philosophy is that wishing for an answer is always bad, and you should just be wishing for an alternate threat to circumvent whatever hate they played against you.

For Burning Wish, the minimum is

Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens
Diminishing Returns

For Living Wish, the minimum is

Minion of the Wastes
Magus of the Future
Magus of the Jar
Dark Confidant (Already in the SB)
Tomb of Urami

That's 7 cards that leaves 8 cards open, with 4 of those cards being Dark Confidant and the other 4 cards being removal like Shattering Spree, which gives Burning Wish back a removal card.

Ofcourse, the deck could still add answers for both cards and just SB in Dark Confidant in the match ups where Xantid Swarm is dead, but I'm not certain how that's going to work out.

I think combo has the space to run two wishes, Burning Wish loses some non necessary cards like Duress, Earthquake, Hull Breach (unless Solitary Confinement? you could cut a Shattering Spree tho'.) and maybe one semi-necessary card in Ill Gotten Gains.

[Bryant Cook]

I agree with a lot of that in principle, but not all of it in practice.

The point on Swords to Plowshares is that if the opponent Swords to Plowshares the first Xantid Swarm then the odds of them being able to Swords to Plowshares the Living Wish->Xantid Swarm, Living Wish->Dark Confidant or the Living Wish->Magus of the Future, Magus of the Jar or Minions of the Wastes before either of them can win the game aren't that bad. I realize that all of the Living Wish win conditions and engine cards have to take Swords to Plowshares into consideration as a a counter spell. What if they decide not to Swords the Xantid? What if they decide to wait to Swords the card you combo'd for and win the game? I mean it's not a terrible idea to win the game for a W. One of combo's greatest strengths has always been avoiding creature hate and your lists/deck idea doesn't follow through with this. Creatures in combo decks just aren't as strong and lose to more hate cards, Gamekeeper Salvagers is a perfect example; which has fallen into the face of oblivion. All of Living Wishes targets force you to pass the turn, when passing the turn in Legacy with a combo deck more than likely you are going to lose.


Dark Confidant and Magus of the Jar are good tutor targets, tutoring for Dark Confidant with Living Wish is the equivalent of tutoring for a Xantid Swarm with Plunge into Darkness, both of them draw out the Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares, except Living Wish doesn't cause life loss and if the opponent doesn't have an answer to Dark Confidant the deck is going to be winning over the long haul instead of right after the card is cast. Tutoring for Magus of the Jar is one of three things, with LED it's a Draw 7 that requires the deck to lose it's storm and untap, but with LED the deck has Magus of the Future to consider instead, with out LED it's either the second or third threat that overwhelms the opponent in a chain of threats or a top deck. I do agree it seems to be the slowest of the wish targets, but it's effect is so strong that if it weren't as slow as it is it would be banned from the format, ala Memory Jar. Now you're arguing Living Wish vs. Plunge into Darkness? Plunge into Darkness gets cards required to win with such as Lion's Eye Diamond. Lion's Eye Diamond is a stronger target than anything Living Wish can grab. Also, for Living Wishing for Dark Confidant seems weak. Why wouldn't you try and win the game? Why do you want to pass the turn with combo? Magus of the jar simply isn't strong enough to warrant Living Wish, neither is Magus of the Future. If I wanted to play that card I would just play Future site since it doesn't die to creature removal forcing the deck to fizzle and lose the game. Memory Jar doesn't lose to lightning bolt or any other removal that ever deck plays. I thought combo was all about speed, nothing you've posted or mentioned is fast, all of which require to pass the turn which is a bad idea.


I'm still not certain whether or not Magus of the Future is busted in this deck or bad in this deck, sometimes it wins in spectacular fashion and other times it coughs up lands, but if it remains on the board it is bound to win the game. I've had a huge amount of success with Minion of the Wastes in all of the combo decks I have used it in, it's not an option after Plunge into Darkness, but pain lands aren't an issue and it's between a one turn and two turn clock against most decks. Now that you've admitted that Magus of the Future causes you to fizzle because of lands, let's talk Minion of the waste. It's casting cost of 4GBBB pretty much requires you to use LED when a creatures casting cost is 8 mana. This whole combo losing to the most common spot removal in the format is a bad idea. When your combo deck loses to Zoo because they play swords, thats when you know there's time for change. Combo is not meant to use creatures, that's the advantage for it. How are painlands not an issue? Not being able to cast spells again because you play City of Brass seems poor to me.


Tutoring for a land hasn't been a bad thing, Ancient Tomb is alright, but Tomb of Urami seems to be one of the better options because it produces mana in the short term and becomes a threat in the long term. I realize the MD has Tomb of Urami as a threat, but I don't consider him to be a threat in the traditional sense, where the opponent is countering him or losing the game (obviously he can't counter him, but you know what I mean) or a threat that can be tutored for or searched for (Hellbent Infernal Tutor aside); he's sort of this 5/5 Flyer that came along for the ride, we've all won with him before, but it was rather random when we did. Most Tomb victories are random yes, but the option is there and doesn't require 1G. That's the befefit, if it costed 3BBG I probably wouldn't use it. In fact I know I wouldn't.


Comparing Living Wish to Burning Wish isn't a fair comparison, IMO, because the two cards aren't competing for the same slots, and despite being similar, the nature of their targets are radically different from one another. They are definitly fighting for slots, sideboard slots. When you are forced to cut cards for other cards in the sideboard they are fighting for slots. With wish targets it also means that cards are fighting for MD slots as well between Burning Wish and Living Wish.


I'm still testing the deck with one Living Wish in hand and an unlimited SB, but if I had to make cuts to the MD and SB, I'd go with cutting the second Tendrils of Agony, second Empty the Warrens and maybe the MD Diminishing Returns if it's good enough.

The SB doesn't seem that difficult to restructure, my basic philosophy is that wishing for an answer is always bad, and you should just be wishing for an alternate threat to circumvent whatever hate they played against you. Wishing for answers is bad? That's one of TES's greatest strengths is being able to deal with hate game one is another reason to play TES over say IGGY POP but thats another argument. Now you're taking away one of the deck's greatest strengths to play one of the deck's weaknesses (Creatures), this is not a good idea.


For Burning Wish, the minimum is

Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens
Diminishing Returns

For Living Wish, the minimum is

Minion of the Wastes
Magus of the Future
Magus of the Jar
Dark Confidant (Already in the SB)
Tomb of Urami

That's 7 cards that leaves 8 cards open, with 4 of those cards being Dark Confidant and the other 4 cards being removal like Shattering Spree, which gives Burning Wish back a removal card.

Ofcourse, the deck could still add answers for both cards and just SB in Dark Confidant in the match ups where Xantid Swarm is dead, but I'm not certain how that's going to work out. That sideboard looks atrocious, why on god's green earth would you play two cards that have the exact same effect? Magus and Returns. It seems like poor deckbuilding.


I think combo has the space to run two wishes, Burning Wish loses some non necessary cards like Duress, Earthquake, Hull Breach (unless Solitary Confinement? you could cut a Shattering Spree tho'.) and maybe one semi-necessary card in Ill Gotten Gains. Ill-Gotten Gains should never be cut from the Wishboard, by playing two wishes you are actually hurting the SB more than helping it. You are cutting cards that are nessesary such as Duress for cards that are redundant such as Magus of the Jar. Not to mention you are cutting answers from the deck, which leads the deck down a bad road losing to hate all over the format; Chalice of the Void, Lab, Nullrod, Pillar, ect...

[BreathWeapon]

What opponent would risk sand bagging a Swords to Plowshares against a Xantid Swarm and hope that TES is going to use Living Wish to combo out when there is no guarantee that TES is using Living Wish, and even if TES is using Living Wish, that it's going to be in its hand?

Combo has used creatures as engines, win conditions and disruption before, from Academy Rector, Worldgorger Dragon, Hermit Druid, Gamekeeper, Auriok Salvagers and Trinket Mage, Darksteel Colossus, Sutured Ghoul, Empty the Warrens, Dark Confidant, Xantid Swarm, Goblin Welder and countless other examples; we all know that creatures are vulnerable to removal, but that doesn't mean that creatures should be dismissed from combo. Empty the Warrens, Xantid Swarm, Dark Confidant and Tomb of Urami all suffer from the same relative problems as their Living Wish counter parts, and Empty the Warrens and Tomb of Urami are just as commital as Magus of the Jar or Minion of the Wastes in terms of the amount of resources lost as a result of removal. If we can accept these card's weaknesses to removal, I think we should at least consider the Living Wish cards as well.

Magus of the Future doesn't require TES to pass the turn, regardless, passing the turn is a part of Magic, it's the same as seeing The River in Poker, the opponent has his statistical outs, but that doesn't mean that the dominant hand should be folded on the off chance that the opponent hit his out. I'm fully aware I'm going to lose games because I am passing the turn, but I'm also fully aware that the number of games I win should be significantly higher than the number of games I lose.

Magus of the Future revealing lands can cause the deck to fizzle, Diminishing Returns can draw 7 bad cards and cause the deck to fizzle, as well as give the opponent a new hand; even tho' neither of them are guaranteed, when Magus of the Future fizzles it can still go off again on the next turn with out improving the opponent's position.

Minion of the Wastes costs eight mana if it is cast on the same turn or six mana if it is cast on the following turn, so the deck has two options at its disposal, more on this below tho'.

No, I'm not comparing Plunge into Darkness to Living Wish, I would never cut Plunge into Darkness from this deck; I was drawing a correlation between the use of Plunge into Darkness and the use of Living Wish being similar when the deck doesn't have disruption at its disposal; the deck has to decide whether or not it is going to just go for it or if it is going to tutor for disruption or a non-LED based threat, both Plunge into Darkness and Living Wish offer similar options in this regard.

Living Wish for Tomb of Urami isn't a 1G + 2BB win condition, that's wasteful and we both know it, Living Wish for Tomb of Urami is a land drop that will constitute an additional threat to the opponent as time passes; I want the mana first, and I want the opponent considering whether or not I will sacrifice the Tomb second.

I agree that Living Wish and Burning Wish are fighting for slots in the SB, but not in the MD, both Living Wish and Burning Wish don't need more than 3 to 4 or so slots each in order to have access to enough threats in the SB, and the deck can still add answers if it's willing to SB in Dark Confidants for Xantid Swarm in the aggro matches, and you've done it in the past. Duress isn't needed in the SB, you've stated it yourself before. Altho' it's nice to have, if I think the opponent has something I would want to discard, I reconsider what engine or win condition I can use to get around that card and use that instead.

Wishing for answers is bad when the hate can be circumvented thru' threat selection, we've all disregarding a Pyrostatic Pillar and Burning Wished for an Empty the Warrens before; like Duress, I don't think answers are necessary, but they are nice to have, and I would probably play at least Hull Breach because it's impossible to play around Solitary Confinement or Arcane Lab.

Diminishing Returns and Magus of the Jar do not have the same effect, regardless, using two cards with two similar functions is only redundant if those two cards belong to the same wish, i.e Infernal Contract and Cruel Bargain would be redundant. There's nothing wrong with Diminishing Returns and Magus of the Jar both being in the SB, because each wish board and the rest of the SB itself are independent from one another.

I've gotten away with cutting Diminishing Returns from the MD and Ill Gotten Gains from the SB, and while I consider both of them to be useful, I don't consider both of them to be necessary; it's not as if the deck is going to suddenly collapse from their absence. I'm not certain I wont put them back into the MD or SB after I decide what should or shouldn't be cut to make room, if I go with cutting the Shattering Sprees I will be certain to return some of those cards to the SB.

Back to Minion of the Wastes, a lot of those counter examples are based on two things, first the worst case scenario and second me being a complete idiot; if Swords to Plowshares is a threat, I'm going to Living Wish for Dark Confidant and slow roll the opponent, if Lightning Bolt is a threat I am going to Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes and beat down, and if I can't do either of those I am going to drop a land. Any one can misplay any tutor in this deck, you can Infernal Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains with Force of Will in the discard pile or Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens against board control. The assumption is that the selection of threats each card has will allow it to adapt to any given situation, and every other card in your hand also plays a role in your decisions.

All that aside, a couple of other things sort of bother me here, Burning Wish for Duress is all of a sudden necessary, but Living Wish for Dark Confidant is terrible? Both of those plays are analogous to one another, except one of them is hoping that discarding a single card will allow the deck to go off when the other is just going to over power the opponent over the course of the game.

Just win isn't always an advisable answer to any given situation, if you're comboing blind against an opponent on the draw in game two with complete disregard for an untapped Island and whether or not the opponent mulliganed, you had better have a damn good reason.

Finally, I haven't passed judgement on the card, the two to three cards removed from the MD may just be better than Living Wish, or the number of occurences of the card may not be enough to justify the contortions to the SB, but that's besides the point, which is to see whether or not the card is functional in the deck.

[jegger]

I don't read the forum for a little time, so I have read now the disquisition about the living wish.


Isn't Tomb of Urami superior to Cabal Pit against Threshold? A 5/5 will win the game, where removing a Meddling Mage is still at least a Stone Rain and a Time Walk.

Good Idea! I don't think sincerely to this argument. Sure, I'll try this.

What do you think about the rumor on the blue pact?
It seems to be a counter for 0 & next turn pay 3UU or die.

Can the pact replace orim/xantid/duress in main/side? or be a good addition to the deck beyond others protections?

I'm not so sure. I think that blue pact can be extremely good in a belcher deck, but in a deck like this where a standard play is infernal tutor, crap led, discard the hand with eventually the hypothetical blue pact gives the opportunity to my opponent to counter my tutor, so I think I continue to prefer our protections.

[3eowulf]

@ Living Wish:
- can't be cast off ritual acceleration
- requires almost always to pass the turn
- creatures are easier to hate
- requires another wishboard
- there's no worst tutor to cut in the deck
It's not one of this argument that warrants it's exclusions (as it looks like it's about this that you are discussing), but their sum.

@ jegger:
I think i'd never use Tomb against white *****, since i believe them to have too many outs for that situation.
The flaw of the blue pact is that you can't win with IGG, EtW and LED.

[Bryant Cook]

What opponent would risk sand bagging a Swords to Plowshares against a Xantid Swarm and hope that TES is going to use Living Wish to combo out when there is no guarantee that TES is using Living Wish, and even if TES is using Living Wish, that it's going to be in its hand? What if your opponent has outside information in the form of Duress or Cabal Therapy? What if all your opponent has is a Swords?Swordsing a Xantid would be worthless and you combo out and get a man, you lose to a single card. A very common card at that. Another scenario would be Lightning bolting the Xantid and swordsing whatever you get off Living Wish. These are not uncommon and can be relevant in match-ups such as Hannifish and UGRW Gro.


Combo has used creatures as engines, win conditions and disruption before, from Academy Rector, Worldgorger Dragon, Hermit Druid, Gamekeeper, Auriok Salvagers and Trinket Mage, Darksteel Colossus, Sutured Ghoul, Empty the Warrens, Dark Confidant, Xantid Swarm, Goblin Welder and countless other examples; we all know that creatures are vulnerable to removal, but that doesn't mean that creatures should be dismissed from combo. Empty the Warrens, Xantid Swarm, Dark Confidant and Tomb of Urami all suffer from the same relative problems as their Living Wish counter parts, and Empty the Warrens and Tomb of Urami are just as commital as Magus of the Jar or Minion of the Wastes in terms of the amount of resources lost as a result of removal. If we can accept these card's weaknesses to removal, I think we should at least consider the Living Wish cards as well.Rector hasn't been in a good combo deck since Necro rained Magic. Also, where's Dragon in Vintage? Dwindled down to nothing, it dies to all forms of hate. This is besides the point and doesn't belong here. Empty the Warrens doesn't fit in the catagory, it doesn't lose to spot removal and most decks in the format can't deal with 8-10 goblins on turns 1-2. Xantid Swarm and Dark Confidant aren't cards you combo into unlike the rest that you've posted, they are there to protect and build stability. Neither card also requires resources (Accelleration) to get on the table Both of the Maguses that you posted die to another form of removal Lightning Bolt, which sees play in alot of aggro decks. You're willing to throw away more good match-ups to do cool tricks with new cards?


Magus of the Future doesn't require TES to pass the turn, regardless, passing the turn is a part of Magic, it's the same as seeing The River in Poker, the opponent has his statistical outs, but that doesn't mean that the dominant hand should be folded on the off chance that the opponent hit his out. I'm fully aware I'm going to lose games because I am passing the turn, but I'm also fully aware that the number of games I win should be significantly higher than the number of games I lose. I'm not much of a gambler, never have, never will be. That is why we don't play bad cards like Spoils of the Vault. They are too risky and often cause you to fizzle. Magus of the Future folds to more than just land, it folds to storm spells, too many tutors or uncastable cards (Xantid). It takes alot more than one card to make a Diminishing Returns hand bad, there's many cards that can make Magus bad with one shot. If combo decks ever had a choice your opponent would never get a turn, I don't see why you're comfortable with passing and timewalking so many turns. How will you win more games? You're combo loses to Lightning Bolt.


Magus of the Future revealing lands can cause the deck to fizzle, Diminishing Returns can draw 7 bad cards and cause the deck to fizzle, as well as give the opponent a new hand; even tho' neither of them are guaranteed, when Magus of the Future fizzles it can still go off again on the next turn with out improving the opponent's position. There's no reason you can't go off the next turn with Diminishing Returns either, there's alot more to stop Magus of the Future than there is to stop Diminishing Returns as I've posted before.


Minion of the Wastes costs eight mana if it is cast on the same turn or six mana if it is cast on the following turn, so the deck has two options at its disposal, more on this below tho'. You're willing to give your opponent timewalk twice? The longer a game goes with combo the more likely you are not to win. In combo more than likely your opponent will have more answers than you do threats, therefor you want to end the game fast. Living Wish doesn't help end the game quicker.


Living Wish for Tomb of Urami isn't a 1G + 2BB win condition, that's wasteful and we both know it, Living Wish for Tomb of Urami is a land drop that will constitute an additional threat to the opponent as time passes; I want the mana first, and I want the opponent considering whether or not I will sacrifice the Tomb second. Alright.


I agree that Living Wish and Burning Wish are fighting for slots in the SB, but not in the MD, both Living Wish and Burning Wish don't need more than 3 to 4 or so slots each in order to have access to enough threats in the SB, and the deck can still add answers if it's willing to SB in Dark Confidants for Xantid Swarm in the aggro matches, and you've done it in the past. Duress isn't needed in the SB, you've stated it yourself before. Altho' it's nice to have, if I think the opponent has something I would want to discard, I reconsider what engine or win condition I can use to get around that card and use that instead. 2/3rds of the game is played post sideboard, because you play two wishboard tutors you are at a natural disadvantage. Leaving yourself next to no room for sideboarding, I feel like I'm cutting it too close with 6 cards that are very verastile and can come in during most matches. You're cutting it down to 4 or less which is insanity. I did state that Duress wasn't needed then when I added Chant to the sideboard I found out I was wrong. I played 3 games against control and lost 2 of them because I didn't have Burning Wish -> Duress. After those 3 games Duress has never found it's way into my sideboard so quickly.


Wishing for answers is bad when the hate can be circumvented thru' threat selection, we've all disregarding a Pyrostatic Pillar and Burning Wished for an Empty the Warrens before; like Duress, I don't think answers are necessary, but they are nice to have, and I would probably play at least Hull Breach because it's impossible to play around Solitary Confinement or Arcane Lab. Yes we can all play around Pillar it's not hard, however, can we play around two? I've tried and was unsuccessful. The deck's strongest feature is outs to hate game one without wasting maindeck slots. You're taking that away leaving the deck very similar to Iggy Pop losing to hate.


Diminishing Returns and Magus of the Jar do not have the same effect, regardless, using two cards with two similar functions is only redundant if those two cards belong to the same wish, i.e Infernal Contract and Cruel Bargain would be redundant. There's nothing wrong with Diminishing Returns and Magus of the Jar both being in the SB, because each wish board and the rest of the SB itself are independent from one another. Both cards read "Each player draws 7" and you play two of them in the sideboard, that's redundant. Especially when you are cutting cards like Ill-Gotten Gains to do so. Is there a reason for two wishboards? There's not much Living Wish can do that Burning Wish can't. If you want creatures there's plenty of sorceries that create them.


I've gotten away with cutting Diminishing Returns from the MD and Ill Gotten Gains from the SB, and while I consider both of them to be useful, I don't consider both of them to be necessary; it's not as if the deck is going to suddenly collapse from their absence. I'm not certain I wont put them back into the MD or SB after I decide what should or shouldn't be cut to make room, if I go with cutting the Shattering Sprees I will be certain to return some of those cards to the SB. They most certainly are necessary, a copy of each maindeck and sideboard. If you don't have a copy of each in both the maindeck and sideboard you have to force yourself to find Burning Wish to dodge graveyard hate, a Diminshing Returns with a casting cost of 4RBUU isn't that impressive nor effective.


Back to Minion of the Wastes, a lot of those counter examples are based on two things, first the worst case scenario and second me being a complete idiot; if Swords to Plowshares is a threat, I'm going to Living Wish for Dark Confidant and slow roll the opponent, if Lightning Bolt is a threat I am going to Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes and beat down, and if I can't do either of those I am going to drop a land. Any one can misplay any tutor in this deck, you can Infernal Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains with Force of Will in the discard pile or Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens against board control. The assumption is that the selection of threats each card has will allow it to adapt to any given situation, and every other card in your hand also plays a role in your decisions. Your worst case scenario happens to be very common seeing as it's the most played spot removal in the format. If your opponent is playing Lightning Bolts you're going to go for a creature that requires you to lose life? Not a smart plan, they'll just burn you out then. If your opponent plays both Swords and Lightning Bolt you're going to waste a tutor on a land? Seems weak. Burning Wish is never dead. You only need one sideboard tutor to utilize in a deck. Taking play mistakes into consideration is irrelevant, once you've played the deck long enough you shouldn't make play mistakes. I don't.


All that aside, a couple of other things sort of bother me here, Burning Wish for Duress is all of a sudden necessary, but Living Wish for Dark Confidant is terrible? Both of those plays are analogous to one another, except one of them is hoping that discarding a single card will allow the deck to go off when the other is just going to over power the opponent over the course of the game. Burning Wish for Duress ensures victory in protection that turn, Living Wish for Dark Confidant to gain card advantage to ensure protection takes time and timewalking you're opponent several turns. This is assuming it went unanswered. Timewalking your opponent is bad in Magic, you want to get things done as fast as possible.


Just win isn't always an advisable answer to any given situation, if you're comboing blind against an opponent on the draw in game two with complete disregard for an untapped Island and whether or not the opponent mulliganed, you had better have a damn good reason. The scenario had either Burning Wish or Living Wish in hand with Burning Wish I would get Duress and pass the turn, Duress then attempt to combo during the next. With Living Wish this isn't possible.

I had typed this up once before but internet explorer hates me and closed so I shortened everything I said because It was much longer. I apologize if some things don't make as much since to you as they do me.

[Sycik]

OK, so I've been following this deck for a couple weeks now and just got through reading this thread.

I've been playing combo decks for a LOOOONG time. Matter of fact, I've been playing combo decks since before Mana Vault was restricted and the mulligan rule was 0 lands in hand = 7 new cards with no limit on the number of mulligans. (This was great in a deck that played 0 lands) Now, with as long as I've been playing Magic in general, I've developed the ability to pretty much pick up any deck and be able to play well with it - TES has been no different.

Now, like wastedlife said, there are some cards that you can look at on paper and immediately know that they are awful for a certain deck. In Legacy, in TEPS, the Magus' (all of them) are not awful, they're HORRID.

So, Magus of the Future lets you play the top card of your library as if it were in your hand.... great. I have a better idea.... If you're that concerned about playing the top card of your deck, why not just put it in your hand with Dark Confidant with a CC of 1B, instead of 2UUU? Not just that, but Confidant, over the long game in which neither creature is answered, WILL generate a guaranteed card advantage whereas the Magus MIGHT generate an advantage. This is not taking into consideration that any deck playing black, red or white is simply going to untap and kill your creature.

Now, the times that Magus WOULD generate an advantage (and granted, it would be a nice advantage) you would only need to get to a tutor of some sort to get a win-con and win anyhow. That is something that Plunge already does, Infernal already does, Burning already does, the 2 - 4 win-cons already in your deck do, Diminishing Returns sometimes does..... You see a trend I hope. Magus' are simply win-more cards here and add no real value that the other cards already in the list provide.

Magus of the Jar? C'mon now... Why not just get Diminishing Returns and do everything that turn instead of wasting precious resources and storm count to drop a magus a turn in advance and risking it getting killed?

Street Wraith - now this might be a different story because on paper, I'm torn. I can see the benefit of having an almost free slot. However, this is not the same as running 56 cards as some people are claiming. In order for that to be true, you'd have to guarantee that you see all 4 of them in the course of the game, which would then be the equivalent of running 56 cards and starting at 12 life.

The problem with Wraith, as others have said, the 2 life could turn out to be dangerous. It starts limiting how many times we can tap our City of Brass, how many cards we can dig for with Plunge. Not to mention the fact that you most likely have to remove some sort of accel from your deck in order to fit them in and this list is tight to begin with. It almost requires every piece of accel already in the deck to remain in the deck. I, personally, have dropped one of the MD EtW for the 4th Cabal Ritual because there have been too many times when I've needed just one more black mana and I can't imagine cutting any of that accel. I'll still be testing him.

[BreathWeapon]

I was caught in between posting, so let me rephrase.

Both of those scenarios requires the opponent to have two outs, removal for the Xantid Swarm and removal for the Living Wish target, and a Duress for "something" and removal for the Living Wish target.

If an opponent removes the Xantid Swarm, and I can't use the Living Wish to get the Xantid Swarm back and win with another threat, there's no guarantee I'm going to combo out in this position, because if Force of Will and Stifle are still a consideration, Living Wish for Dark Confidant and winning small is still an option. Even if I did combo out in this position, it still requires the opponent to have two removal spells, and the odds of that are less then the odds of the opponent having two counterspells, Force of Will/Daze and Stifle, and both Magus of the Future and Minion of the Wastes are immune to Stifle.

Edit: I still need to get a ruling on Minion of the Wastes, but there is a difference between As and When and additional costs and triggered abilities.

If all an opponent has is a single Swords to Plowshares, he is going to Swords to Plowshares the Xantid Swarm and bluff the counter. Not removing the Xantid Swarm is guaranteeing the opponent can combo off, taking him off the bluff and wasting tempo and mana.

If all an opponent has is a single Swords to Plowshares because he is some sort of Zoo deck that just isn't using burn for some reason, then even if I lose the game. I imagine I'm good enough to come back and win the next two games. I would never cast Magus of the Future or Magus of the Jar against aggro, that's retarded, I would cast Minion of the Wastes and kill them before I could be burned out or get a Dark Confidant or a Land if I felt like being a complete bitch.

Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives seem to be MD staples in control and aggro-control, or some sort of Cunning Wish, Burning Wish or Living Wish for mass creature removal, and while there is less of in in the MD than Swords to Plowshares, there are more targets for it.

I agree about Xantid Swarm and Dark Confidant, tho' Dark Confidant is Xantid Swarms analog in the SB. As far as Burning Wish -> Duress being better/worse than Living Wish-> Dark Confidant, one is going to give the opponent a chance to win now and the other is going to overwhelm the opponent in card advantage.

I have no problem winning small in combo, I've been dropping Confidants and Goblins for 6 and slow rolling the opponent for awhile in this deck, coin flipping against Force of Will and Stifle just isn't my thing.

I'm not arguing over Diminishing Returns and Magus of the Jar because it's asinine, the two wish boards have nothing to do with each other, and Diminishing Returns and Magus of the Jar aren't the same effect, the opponent doesn't get to replenish card advantage from Magus of the Jar.

So an opponent casts two Pillars, and a double Time Walk for Burning Wish and Tranquility and the 8 to 12 damage isn't going to win the game for the opponent? Most people SBs aren't prepared for situations that outrageous, just go to game 3 on the play and win.

Magus of the Future doesn't seem to be that bad, with about 10 lands, up to 2 lands are drawn and others are removed with Plunge into Darkness, and the deck gets to drop one land per turn. It either wins on the spot, wins on the next turn or wins if it sticks.

With a teched out SB for both Wishes, I still have 4 slots for SBing. Considering all I SB out is Xantid Swarm against non-blue and SB in is more threats against aggro-control, I'm ok with that, but if teching out both Wishes do cause problems for other people, then Magus of the Future and/or the Tomb of Urami can be cut and just the Minions of the Wastes, Magus of the Jar and Dark Confidant are enough to support the card (That's Living Wish taking up a total of 2 SB slots)

While I prefer using the Simian Spirit Guide, 3 Empty the Warrens and MD Diminishing Returns build I had before, I am convinced that Living Wish is still good enough to be in this deck for people who dislike the second Tendrils of Agony, the second or third Empty the Warrens, the MD Diminishing Returns or the tertiary cards like the 4th Plunge into Darkness, 4th Cabal Ritual, 4th Chrome Mox or 11th land.

[Sycik]

@ BreathWeapon - I think it's safe to say that there are options that you and wastedlife and others disagree about, but with all of your propositions to changing the decklist of TES, you're completely botching the original idea.

TES is a combo deck that IS designed under the "win big or go home" philosophy. You're proposing to completely change the way that TES wins - via IGG and Diminishing Returns - into a slow winning combo deck that attempts to answer anything and everything that the opponent is doing. That isn't TES, it's a different deck. If it does well, let us know and maybe you can post some winning tourney results with it. I hope for your sake that you do well with it - but it isn't TES.

Now, Wastedlife, please correct me if I'm wrong, but TES was designed to be a combo deck that attempts to completely disregard what the opponent does via protection from Xantid Swarm if they play blue, (if they don't then it doesn't really matter) but to have the flexibility via the wishboard of removal to beat what the opponent does if they happen to put something down that we don't like before we win.

Playing Living Wish with a double wishboard completely destroys the flexibility of the utility wishboard that TES plays to get around the opponent hate that they might sneak in on you. For example, here are the cards that I run in my board:
1x Tranquility
1x Duress
1x Earthquake
1x Shattering Spree
1x Chainer's Edict (I've seen some strange crap hit the board in Legacy Testing)
2x Empty the Warrens
2x Tendrils of Agony
4x Dark Confidant
1x IGGy
1x Diminishing Returns

Now, to remove even 4 of those cards for Living Wish targets either cripples the ability to pull answers, recursion or win-cons out of the board via Burning Wish.

You aren't playing TES, Breathweapon, you're playing some sort of funky homebrew combo that tries to respond to and answer anything and everything your opponent does, attempts to do, or can possibly do. This is why you and Wastedlife so vehemetly disagree. He's trying to keep the original philosophy in tact and you are trying to create a completely new deck and call it TES.

I had a pro player friend of mine once tell me "quit fucking around and just win" when I would try to pull funky combos that did cool things. This is where I feel some of your ideas lie. While dropping a Magus of the Future and going nuts would be cool, it absolutely IS NOT NECESSARY TO WIN. This is the part that I think you are missing. Sure it'd be absolutely awesome to run nuts and play the top 30 cards of your library, but does it really matter when you can just win anyway?

[Citrus-God]

I had a pro player friend of mine once tell me "quit fucking around and just win" when I would try to pull funky combos that did cool things.

That's the way to fucking play this deck! Win when you know you can, and dont over extend. In a deck like this, over extended is just going above your mana budget. This deck is good in the hands of a skilled player because they're very calculating with their mana and decisions, and yet aggressive.

[BreathWeapon]

@ BreathWeapon - I think it's safe to say that there are options that you and wastedlife and others disagree about, but with all of your propositions to changing the decklist of TES, you're completely botching the original idea.

TES is a combo deck that IS designed under the "win big or go home" philosophy. You're proposing to completely change the way that TES wins - via IGG and Diminishing Returns - into a slow winning combo deck that attempts to answer anything and everything that the opponent is doing. That isn't TES, it's a different deck. If it does well, let us know and maybe you can post some winning tourney results with it. I hope for your sake that you do well with it - but it isn't TES.

Now, Wastedlife, please correct me if I'm wrong, but TES was designed to be a combo deck that attempts to completely disregard what the opponent does via protection from Xantid Swarm if they play blue, (if they don't then it doesn't really matter) but to have the flexibility via the wishboard of removal to beat what the opponent does if they happen to put something down that we don't like before we win.

Playing Living Wish with a double wishboard completely destroys the flexibility of the utility wishboard that TES plays to get around the opponent hate that they might sneak in on you. For example, here are the cards that I run in my board:
1x Tranquility
1x Duress
1x Earthquake
1x Shattering Spree
1x Chainer's Edict (I've seen some strange crap hit the board in Legacy Testing)
2x Empty the Warrens
2x Tendrils of Agony
4x Dark Confidant
1x IGGy
1x Diminishing Returns

Now, to remove even 4 of those cards for Living Wish targets either cripples the ability to pull answers, recursion or win-cons out of the board via Burning Wish.

You aren't playing TES, Breathweapon, you're playing some sort of funky homebrew combo that tries to respond to and answer anything and everything your opponent does, attempts to do, or can possibly do. This is why you and Wastedlife so vehemetly disagree. He's trying to keep the original philosophy in tact and you are trying to create a completely new deck and call it TES.

I had a pro player friend of mine once tell me "quit fucking around and just win" when I would try to pull funky combos that did cool things. This is where I feel some of your ideas lie. While dropping a Magus of the Future and going nuts would be cool, it absolutely IS NOT NECESSARY TO WIN. This is the part that I think you are missing. Sure it'd be absolutely awesome to run nuts and play the top 30 cards of your library, but does it really matter when you can just win anyway?

First, I am using TES, I haven't changed the deck's use of Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Ill Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns at all (I've removed Diminishing Returns from the MD and Ill Gotten Gains from the SB before, but I'm still using Diminishing Returns in the SB and Ill Gotten Gains in the MD) what I changed was the second Tendrils of Agony and the second Empty the Warrens into Living Wish and debated about whether or not I wanted to add a third Living Wish.

Second, I don't think it's your place to tell me how I play this deck, when you've never seen me play it. I know how I play it, and I think you actually have Wastedlife and me completely confused.

Wastedlife concentrates on using Tendrils to win the game, which requires TES to be reactive, not pro-active, against aggro-control, answering the opponent's hate with Burning Wish and prefers Ill Gotten Gains.

Breathweapon doesn't concentrate on using Tendrils to win the game, which allows him to be pro-active, not reactive, against aggro-control, and uses an assortment of threats in order to reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's hate and prefers Diminishing Returns.

The difference is Wastedlife wins big and Breathweapon wins small, it's this disagreement that has led us to all of our arguments, from SBing a Right of Flame and MDing a Seething Song, three Empty the Warrens vs one Empty the Warrens, Chain of Vapor vs Shattering Spree, Simian Spirit Guide vs Right of Flame, Duress vs Xantid Swarm, whether or not this deck wins more with Diminishing Returns or Ill Gotten Gains and now whether or not Living Wish is a viable consideration in this deck.

We've had some other arguments in the past, Plunge into Darkness vs Spoils of the Vault, Nigh Whispers vs Brainstorm and Death Wish as additional threats etc. but that was back when the deck was still being developed. Of those arguments, I conceded two of them, Plunge into Darkness is better than Spoils of the Vault and Xantid Swarm is better than Duress, two of them became obsolete, other threats replaced Death Wish and Dark Confidant was a superior Night Whispers, but the rest of them are still valid points of contention for people to consider.

It's not as if I just came along and hijacked TES, we were both working on Burning Wish based Tendrils in the summer of '06.

We met each other here,

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29508.0

We had our first argument here,

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29531.0

Not Quite Long and/or TES started here,

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29807.30

And we banded together here,

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29955.0

After a PM from Wastedlife to me we more or less have been working in the same threads since.

It's interesting to go back over some of those threads and see what our positions were then, me suggesting Xantid Swarm and Brainstorm and him arguing against them, me flip flopping and suggesting Duress and Night Whispers and him arguing for Xantid Swarm and Brainstorm etc.

Living Wish IS a consideration for this deck, LonelyBaritone, another member of Wastedlife's own team agreed with me before his post disappeared; what was with that any way?

Regardless, I agree that Magus of the Future is too unpredictable and that he shouldn't be included in the SB, and there's no need for Tomb of Urami in the SB because Plunge into Darkness can RFG a target, or two if the deck is using Simian Spirit Guide, for it to produce mana; altho', I really do like being able to Living Wish for Tomb of Urami and win small by pressuring the opponent with him.

So, that leaves us with whether or not Living Wish butchers the SB,

SB(s)

Burning Wish SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hull Breach
1 Duress

All of the cards that are required according to Wastedlife, Earthquake is debatable, because the deck shouldn't take the time to answer a single Meddling Mage and a second Meddling Mage can be placed on Burning Wish.

I think the SB you posted is seriously redundant, I could cut the second Empty the Warrens, second Tendrils of Agony, Chainer's Edict, Tranquility and Shattering Spree for Hull Breach and be -4 cards and just fine.

Living Wish SB

1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Magus of the Jar
X Dark Confidant

That leaves 7 open slots in the SB, since one of the Living Wish slots was in the SB to begin with, and that's one more open slot than Wastedlife has with out Living Wish.

SB

4 Dark Confidant
3 (open slots)

People can argue over the MD slots and the strength of Living Wish to death, but considering I'm the one person that has tested the card in the deck, I'm going to state that the card can be between a 2/3x, it is strong, and that Dark Confidant, Minion of the Wastes and Magus of the Jar are all good tutor targets.

[Giles]

My opinion of Street Wraith: It is a good card. It going to help out a lot of combo decks. However, TES is not one of the.



Living Wish SB

1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Magus of the Jar
X Dark Confidant


Seriously Magus of the Future would be better. Last time I check there is no way of giving MotJ haste. Thus, this makes it a wasted slot. Getting :1::g: first turn. Then next turn ( or leaving 5 mana in the pool) having :3::u::u: is not going to happen. then untap-ing then having to combo with wasted resources, then getting a sub-par Draw7 hand..... and fizzling. The reason that I think that Returns is good is because it takes the graveyard and put it back into the deck.

If LW gets Bob, then 4 mana (one being :g:) to play the damn thing then watching trying to get back for when you wasted at least 3 cards from your hand. You are better off playing Bob in the MD.

Minion of the Wastes is to put is simply stupid. :3::b::b::b: for something that says "If you are able to deal with me you win" Also you are fucking lucky if you have 3bbb in your pool. and there is much better things at that mana cost, that at least do something.

[Bryant Cook]

To clarify a few things, alot of what Sycik said was true and alot of what Breathweapon was true. The deck comes down to playstyle alot when it comes to card choices. However, Breathweapon's playstyle is a polar opposite then mine; this is where I start to agree with Sycik. Alot of Breathweapon's choices dramatically change the way the deck plays and it's options, which is starting to lead to a different deck. I could see it branching off or branching closer once again, who knows.

Also, LonelyBaritone's post was a joke. That is why it was deleted.

Thanks Breathweapon, looking back at some of those arguments and posts/lists gave me a few good laughs. Also, the arguments, god I was quite immature in a few(/alot) of them.

Somewhat back to the topic, is Living Wish worth running for 3 cards in the SB? I don't believe so, there's nothing that any of those three cards posted can't be achieved via Burning Wish. Burning Wish is simply a better tutor all around.

EDIT: Looking back the deck and my post quality has come a long way.

[BreathWeapon]

My opinion of Street Wraith: It is a good card. It going to help out a lot of combo decks. However, TES is not one of the.



Seriously Magus of the Future would be better. Last time I check there is no way of giving MotJ haste. Thus, this makes it a wasted slot. Getting :1::g: first turn. Then next turn ( or leaving 5 mana in the pool) having :3::u::u: is not going to happen. then untap-ing then having to combo with wasted resources, then getting a sub-par Draw7 hand..... and fizzling. The reason that I think that Returns is good is because it takes the graveyard and put it back into the deck.

If LW gets Bob, then 4 mana (one being :g:) to play the damn thing then watching trying to get back for when you wasted at least 3 cards from your hand. You are better off playing Bob in the MD.

Minion of the Wastes is to put is simply stupid. :3::b::b::b: for something that says "If you are able to deal with me you win" Also you are fucking lucky if you have 3bbb in your pool. and there is much better things at that mana cost, that at least do something.

I just read that as, "I don't understand how to use Living Wish."

No one is casting Living Wish for Magus of the Jar on turn one, casting Magus of the Jar on turn two and activating Magus of the Jar on turn three. Living Wish for Magus of the Jar is a second or third threat that grinds the opponent out of the game,

For instance, TES is on the draw, it's game 2, the opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares, now at this point Living Wish can tutor for the Xantid Swarm and protect another threat or another threat can be cast.

The opponent puts an Island on the board, taps both lands to cast Meddling Mage naming LED, go.

Cast Burning Wish, opponent casts Force of Will, and now Living Wish can either tutor up a Dark Confidant to win small or Magus of the Jar to win big on the following turns.

Now for a second premise.

The opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

TES has a hand that can combo out, but it doesn't have protection, Xantid Swarm, or an alternate threat, Empty the Warrens, to play around any of the opponent's disruption, you Brainstorm and reveal more mana and pass the turn.

The opponent puts an Island on the board, go

Living Wish in hand, Infernal Tutor and more than enough mana to combo off in hand. Cast Dark Ritual, cast Living Wish and cast Dark Confidant, the opponent casts Force of Will on Dark Confidant. If the opponent had Swords to Plowshares he would have cast it, if all the opponent had in his was Force of Will he would be set up for a loss.

The opponent puts a Tropical Island on the board, casts a threat, go.

At this point it smells like Stifle, combo off into Diminishing Returns and proceed to have a prayer.

Now for a third premise.

Opponent puts a Fetchland on the board and cracks it for Tundra, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares on Xantid Swarm.

Opponent puts an Island on the board, go.

The opponent has another card, it's either going to be Force of Will or Stifle, the hand has enough mana to combo off and needs to consider doing it right now, the opponent has cast one Swords to Plowshares, if he has Force of Will he wins regardless, if he has Stifle ... Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes at 19/19 ... he had Stifle.

Those are all from IRL experiences I have had with the card in the deck.

Minion of the Wastes is not "just stupid," this could come as a surprise, but there are aggro-control and control decks that don't use Swords to Plowshares, GAT, Faerie Stompy, U/g/r Threshold, U/g/b Threshold and a slew of other home brew decks.

Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain costs 8 mana, the same amount of mana as Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes, and an unprotected Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain gives the opponent the same amount of outs, Force of Will and Stifle, as a Minion of the Wastes, Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares, and Swords to Plowshares can be baited with Xantid Swarms or SB Dark Confidants etc.

It isn't a bad card, but you'd actually have to test it to know that.

Edited for Wastedlife:

For me, the two, not three, SB cards I cut weren't an issue, because all I ever seem to do is SB in Dark Confidant for random cards against control or SB out Xantid Swarm for live cards against aggro. I've never mastered the median in SBing for Faerie Stompy, which is really the only match up I would ever consider bringing in both Dark Confidant and Shattering Spree, and against aggro I can just Wish for an answer or go to game two if hate hits the board.

I think people can add Living Wish and make the adjustments to the MD and SB with out contorting either of them, being either conservative with the Living Wish board or teched out with the Living Wish board is up to them.

Whether or not Burning Wish can do some stuff that Living Wish can't do or Living Wish can do some stuff that Burning Wish can't do isn't the issue. I think one of the problems with people's judgement on Living Wish is that its targets are different from the conventional fair, while Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor have the exact same targets to choose from (discounting Burning Wish's access to answers and Infernal Tutor's access to acceleration) and abstract targets just "have to be bad."

Comparing Living Wish to Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor is an unfair comparison, unless Living Wish is competing against Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor for MD slots, and it isn't. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether or not Living Wish, as a card in and of itself, is offering effects that are good enough to be in Storm Combo, and I think the answer to that question is a definite yes.

I'm not certain I am going to be using the card, because I designed TES around abusing Simian Spirit Guide and Empty the Warrens to win small against aggro-control and I have it down to a science, but for people who hate certain cards in the deck, I think Living Wish provides them with another option to consider at 1 to 3 in the MD and 3 or so SB targets (counting Dark Confidant).

I'm just glad I spent enough time with Living Wish based Dragon and Gamekeeper to recognize a good thing when I see it.

[noobslayer]

I think as the deck exists now, it can handle its problems or win without needing another wish, which weakens your sideboarding options. This deck is designed to generate red and black mana, not green, which is where in my opinion, burning wish far outshines any other option for utility.

[BreathWeapon]

I think as the deck exists now, it can handle its problems or win without needing another wish, which weakens your sideboarding options. This deck is designed to generate red and black mana, not green, which is where in my opinion, burning wish far outshines any other option for utility.

It's not that I don't agree, I do, but that line of thinking leads to stagnation.

This article explains a lot of the thought process that brought me to test Living Wish and re-evaluate all of the card slots in the deck,

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7911.html

It's a good read.

[outsideangel]

I could see an additional wish being good in a deck like TES, especially if it's replacing cards like the 2nd Tendrils, etc.

However, it seems the way you'd want to play Living Wish is different than the way you'd want to play Burning Wish. Sure, you can Living Wish for stuff like Magus of the Jar or Future, but that just seems redundant when we have Diminishing Returns, which costs less and is less vulnerable.

It seems like the stuff you want to grab with Living Wish are alternative win conditions, like Tomb of Urami, etc. or are just utility guys like Dark Confidant, etc.

I think what we need to consider when examining the possibilty of Living Wish is "Is TES a deck that can afford to devote maindeck slots to cards that do not further its main game plan? Do we want lots of paths to victory at the cost of making those paths less steady?"

On one hand, one of TES's big strengths, as it exists now, are in its multiple paths to victory. Whether it's through Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns, Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens, one of the major reasons to play TES over, say, Iggy-Pop is that it can win in a variety of ways. Having Living Wish can strengthen this element.

On the other hand, though TES packs multiple paths to victory, they tend to rely on the same cards. Whether you get Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns, for example, you get them with the same tutors and use them with the same acceleration. So aside from just a couple of slots, these extra win routes don't really dilute the deck much, in the way that adding a card like Living Wish might.

One argument I really see in favor of BreathWeapon's proposed change is the fact that he removes excess MD winconditions to include the Wish. I've always thought that the extra Tendrils and EtW tend to clog up the MD, but I've been back-and-forth on what to run instead.

Personally, I think at least testing out Living Wish makes sense. However, even if doesn't work out, the testing can show us something important: that the deck can function well (and perhaps better) with only 1 Tendrils and 1-2 EtW maindeck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You need two Tendrils in the main deck for:

1) Double shot Tendrils, which is significant against some decks.
2) In case you remove one through Plunge (or Returns) you still have one to Infernal Tutor for. Nothing is more frustrating than realizing you have the win in terms of storm and no win condition to grab.

[outsideangel]

With Burning Wish I've rarely (never, actually) had problems getting a second Tendrils, or getting it on the off chance it's RFG'd.

[Sycik]

Second, I don't think it's your place to tell me how I play this deck, when you've never seen me play it. I know how I play it, and I think you actually have Wastedlife and me completely confused.

You are correct, and forgive me if I came across as telling you how you play the deck as that was not my intention. I simply said that you aren't playing TES - you're altering a TES decklist into your own style combo which, given the way you've admitted you play, (you look for, and expect a longer game) you aren't playing TES.



The difference is Wastedlife wins big and Breathweapon wins small, it's this disagreement that has led us to all of our arguments, from SBing a Right of Flame and MDing a Seething Song, three Empty the Warrens vs one Empty the Warrens, Chain of Vapor vs Shattering Spree, Simian Spirit Guide vs Right of Flame, Duress vs Xantid Swarm, whether or not this deck wins more with Diminishing Returns or Ill Gotten Gains and now whether or not Living Wish is a viable consideration in this deck.
I believe you are exacting my point that you are straying from TES into your own archetype. As has been stated by many, many people before, including the deck's creator, this deck is expected to have a turn 1 - 4 clock. (i.e. winning big) Your usage of Living Wish is not congruent to that goal because, at best, it adds one turn to the clock and at worst, you get timewalked multiple times. Winning small is just not what combo does. You're working on creating a new spinoff from TES that is more combo-control. And again, like I said before, I hope it does well for you. I never wish people to do poorly with their ideas, but Living Wish =/= TES.



All of the cards that are required according to Wastedlife, Earthquake is debatable, because the deck shouldn't take the time to answer a single Meddling Mage and a second Meddling Mage can be placed on Burning Wish.
Actually, Earthquake is probably the staple in my sideboard. I've Wished for it to end the game when my only card in hand was a topdecked Wish. I've used it in the mirror when my opponent combos out before me and drops 10 - 20 tokens. I've used it in longer games as an effective Wrath of God against Thresh and in shorter games against goblins. I've used it against MULTIPLE Mages naming Tendrils/Warrens.



I think the SB you posted is seriously redundant, I could cut the second Empty the Warrens, second Tendrils of Agony, Chainer's Edict, Tranquility and Shattering Spree for Hull Breach and be -4 cards and just fine.
[/quote]
This is true, you could. However when it comes to game 2/3, I'll actually have answers to MD such as a 3rd Tendrils and a 2nd ETW (I only play 1 ETW MD) and you'll be stuck leaving them in the board as wish targets. A double wishboard, as has been the case in past decks and many past arguements, severely hinders your ability to actually sideboard things into your deck in your marginal or bad matchups which is what you should be focusing on.



1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Magus of the Jar
X Dark Confidant

Your entire Living Wishboard is useless against the most common deck in the format - Goblins, leaving you with 2-4 dead slots in your deck.


That leaves 7 open slots in the SB, since one of the Living Wish slots was in the SB to begin with, and that's one more open slot than Wastedlife has with out Living Wish.
Could you post your entire board for us? I'm simply curious to see your choices including a living wishboard.


People can argue over the MD slots and the strength of Living Wish to death, but considering I'm the one person that has tested the card in the deck, I'm going to state that the card can be between a 2/3x, it is strong, and that Dark Confidant, Minion of the Wastes and Magus of the Jar are all good tutor targets.

I'd fully agree that they are good wish targets if you could get them with Burning Wish. However, you can't so all you do is use up valuable resources and mini-combo out to get a card from your sideboard that then allows your opponent to untap and respond, and guess what, all it takes is a single land and one card in their hand to completely disrupt your entire turn. Stop being fancy and just win. I'd hate to see you spend 5+ cards to play a minion of the wastes to have your opponent swords it, (at least you'd get your life back) edict it, wrath it, damnation it etc.. GG sir.


No one is casting Living Wish for Magus of the Jar on turn one, casting Magus of the Jar on turn two and activating Magus of the Jar on turn three. Living Wish for Magus of the Jar is a second or third threat that grinds the opponent out of the game,

For instance, TES is on the draw, it's game 2, the opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares, now at this point Living Wish can tutor for the Xantid Swarm and protect another threat or another threat can be cast.
Yes, because I always have 3 green mana on turn one to play a Xantid Swarm twice and a Living Wish without dumping my entire hand.


The opponent puts an Island on the board, taps both lands to cast Meddling Mage naming LED, go.

Cast Burning Wish, opponent casts Force of Will, and now Living Wish can either tutor up a Dark Confidant to win small or Magus of the Jar to win big on the following turns.You're assuming quite a bit. You are assuming that 1) You have either 3RGB for Confidant or 5RGUU for Magus of the Jar (which if you manage to do, either chews through shit tons of resources that could be used for storm count to JUST WIN) and that 2) your opponent has no other answer to your play via STP, Edict, Gempalm, any infinite number of burn spells, another counter, etc. And if they do, you JUST LOSE. Again, too much risk and wasted resources for a storm based combo deck to expend.


more scenarios and theoreticals
As for your other "what-if" scenarios, it's all going to come down to the skill of the player, not having additional wishes and more options in the sideboard. We could argue theoreticals all day long, giving best case scenario after best case scenario, and "I'd do this because I'd have the perfect hand to combat XXXX" and it's going to get us nowhere. The deck, as it stands now, has the flexibility to combat blue control WITH A SKILLED PILOT. Given your scenarios, I'm assuming that you are afraid of islands. Well, sometimes with combo, you just have to go for it. I've done it plenty of times and sometimes I've gotten my hand smacked for trying, but I still managed to win. Because of the decks mass tutors, it top decks amazingly well so if you do fizzle, you can still win. I've done it many times.



Minion of the Wastes is not "just stupid," this could come as a surprise, but there are aggro-control and control decks that don't use Swords to Plowshares, GAT, Faerie Stompy, U/g/r Threshold, U/g/b Threshold and a slew of other home brew decks.
Again, a good pilot will already be able to beat a blue based deck. Stop being scared of islands and adding cards that are unnecessary to win. You're actually cutting your efficiency against the matchups that you're most likely to see (Goblins, UGw Thresh, combo) to make your deck only minorly more efficient, if any, against the decks you listed.


Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain costs 8 mana the same amount of mana as Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes
Wrong.
:3: BBB vs. :4:BBBG
BIIIIIG difference. one requires a dark/cabal rit or LED and any other mana. The other requires a dark/cabal rit or LED an additional G, and any other mana. Trying to fit that single G mana is tougher than you make it sound on top of 7 other mana.


and an unprotected Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain gives the opponent the same amount of outs, Force of Will and Stifle, as a Minion of the Wastes, Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares, and Swords to Plowshares can be baited with Xantid Swarms or SB Dark Confidants etc.
theoreticals..... great pilots don't care..... seeing a trend against blue decks yet? (Not to mention that you aren't always going to be playing against FoW's.



It isn't a bad card, but you'd actually have to test it to know that.

No I don't. If it doesn't fit the deck philosophy, it either doesn't belong or it's a different deck. In your case, it's a different deck. Sorry, but that's the truth.

[BreathWeapon]

@People

One of the interesting things about Living Wish is that it doesn't change the fundamental nature of the deck, just removing the redundant MD win conditions and SB slots allows Living Wish to be included with out disturbing the basic premise.

Since I started using Simian Spirit Guide, and now Living Wish, I've noticed that the two cards reinforce TES's general game plan, put a Xantid Swarm on the board and win with Tendrils of Agony, by protecting the Xantid Swarm from Daze and Swords to Plowshares.

One of the things that still bothers me tho' is the "redundant" argument. What is it about having Magus of the Jar and Diminishing Returns in the SB that makes it redundant and having two Diminishing Returns and two Ill Gotten Gains between the SB and MD that doesn't make them redundant? Infernal Tutor can tutor for Ill Gotten Gains better than Burning Wish can and Burning Wish can tutor for Diminishing Returns better than Infernal Tutor can, but we still include two of each between the MD and the SB in order TO BE redundant.

Magus of the Jar isn't redundant in the SB, because the SB isn't built in the traditional sense; in fact, the SB is separated into three mini-SBs, one for Burning Wish, one for Living Wish and one for whatever is left. None of the mini-SBs should take into account what the other SB is using, because each one exists separate from the other, and each one must have enough targets for their respective wishes in order to be viable.

Being redundant isn't the issue, being certain that Living Wish can support a Tendrils or Warrens win with a storm engine is the issue, and having a storm engine that doesn't require the opponent to draw a new hand or both players discard and redraw their hand is something no other storm engine can offer.

If Burning Wish and Living Wish were in hand, then of course Burning Wish becomes the alpha threat and Living Wish becomes the beta threat, because Burning Wish is the one tutor that the opponent will counter, besides Plunge into Darkness, because it can tutor for an uncounterable win condition (assuming that isn't being used in conjunction with LED) After the Burning Wish draws out the counter, Living Wish can consider getting Magus of the Jar. If the Burning Wish doesn't draw out the counter, then there is no counter, and Burning Wish can "just win."

Even in the reverse, Living Wish can be used to tutor for a Dark Confidant and draw out the counter for Burning Wish, or if there is no counter, just crush the opponent under the weight of card advantage and/or "just win."

In either case, Burning Wish gets precedence over Living Wish, because it was either cast first or Living Wish was used with the soul intention of drawing out the counter and not "just winning."

@Sycik

No offense taken,

Damn right I'm scared of Island, I go from being the one card win condition to the one card lose condition the moment that land hits the table, 4 Force of Will and 4 Stifle reverse the roles of the two decks, combo becomes control and control becomes the deck that can win in a single turn (or combo goes for the coin flip, but flipping coins isn't how a game of Magic should be won)

I believe combo can, and does, win small, and I know that Semmenen would agree with me. If the basic principle behind TES is to "Go big or go home," then TES is going to be worse at it then Belcher. Believe me, I've been behind both TES and Belcher for more games than I care to recall, and the deciding factor for me between the two decks is which deck can win small and use skill, and TES is that deck.

In regards to all of the comments on Living Wish,

Those weren't theoreticals, those were from actual games. You need to put Living Wish in your hand and draw 6 more cards before you can understand how the card works in the deck, just from those counter arguments I can see that you don't exactly get it yet. I am not doing all of that stuff over the course of a single turn, I am doing all of that stuff over the course of two turns to grind the opponent out of the game.

Believe me, good pilots should give a damn against theoreticals, counting outs is the single most important skill a pilot can have with combo. There's a big difference between not giving a shit and taking a calculated risk.

I am not a fan of SBing in more win conditions, drawing Tendrils is a mulligan and Warrens is begging for Stifle or Engineered Explosives, from using 3 Warrens MD for a long time, I'm at the point where I SB them out game 2 for Dark Confidants just so I can side step the opponent's hate.

I have a stripped down SB, with about six open slots between the 2-3 extra Dark Confidant and 1-4 Shattering Spree.

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Deconstruct (Awesome)
1 Duress
1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Magus of the Jar
4 Dark Confidant
3 Shattering Spree

and a teched out SB, where I just have extra Dark Confidants for SBing in.

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grape Shot (This is the reason Meddling Mages shouldn't be naming two win conditions)
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Deconstruct (again, Awesome)
1 Duress
1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Magus of the Jar
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tomb of Urami
1 Indrik Stomphowler (You mite as well get a fat ass for all of your trouble)

Minion of the Wastes is a solid win condition, either the opponent threw his Swords to Plowshares at the Xantid Swarm or he's holding a Stifle, and against a lot of decks there's just no answer to him (no one is going to be able to cast Wrath of God before they lose, not that any one plays the card, and no one is going to able to cast Damnation with out a Dark Ritual. Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives can't kill him, Stifle can't touch him and that's what makes him good). The Ill Gotten Gains chain requires 8 mana at the least, 2 mana for Infernal Tutor and 6 additional mana for the loop, it's easier to cast Minion of the Wastes then it is to cast the Ill Gotten Gains chain in this deck, because it doesn't require Hellbent and the mana cost can be reduced for a Time Walk.

Dude, I hard cast Diminishing Returns in this deck all the time, getting G and B in the same turn in a deck with 10 golden land, 4 Lotus petal and 4 Chrome Mox isn't that hard.

Minion of the Wastes owns Goblins, ever seen the reaction on an opponent's face when he casts a turn one Aether Vial and you cast a turn one 10/10 Tramper?

[DeDennis]

has anyone considdered,

Pact of Negation 0 Mana (Rare)

Instant
Pact of Negation is blue.
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 3UU Mana. If you don't, you lose the game.

isn't this a nice way to protect your combo?

[BreathWeapon]

has anyone considdered,

Pact of Negation 0 Mana (Rare)

Instant
Pact of Negation is blue.
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 3UU Mana. If you don't, you lose the game.

isn't this a nice way to protect your combo?

Counters don't work with LED or the Ill Gotten Gains chain, and it prevents the deck from using Empty the Warrens to win.

It is however the bees knees in something like Belcher.

[Bryant Cook]

One of the interesting things about Living Wish is that it doesn't change the fundamental nature of the deck, just removing the redundant MD win conditions and SB slots allows Living Wish to be included with out disturbing the basic premise. It certainly does change the nature of the deck, you now lose to aggro playing Swords to Plowshares. That is much different than casting Tendrils for lethal. Redundant MD win conditions? The only redundant one is Empty the Warrens which you happen to play three of, two Tendrils is nessesary if one get's removed. You don't ever want to be reliant on Burning Wish to find you storm cards against control. How does Living Wish not desturb the deck? You're switching your role from combo to aggro with Minion of the Waste.


Since I started using Simian Spirit Guide, and now Living Wish, I've noticed that the two cards reinforce TES's general game plan, put a Xantid Swarm on the board and win with Tendrils of Agony, by protecting the Xantid Swarm from Daze and Swords to Plowshares. This has always been the plan, without Simian Sprit Guide and Living Wish.


One of the things that still bothers me tho' is the "redundant" argument. What is it about having Magus of the Jar and Diminishing Returns in the SB that makes it redundant and having two Diminishing Returns and two Ill Gotten Gains between the SB and MD that doesn't make them redundant? Infernal Tutor can tutor for Ill Gotten Gains better than Burning Wish can and Burning Wish can tutor for Diminishing Returns better than Infernal Tutor can, but we still include two of each between the MD and the SB in order TO BE redundant. Diminishing Returns effect doesn't end at the end of turn and doesn't lose to Lightning Bolt. Two great reasons to play Returns over Magus of the Jar, Magus of the Jar is too much of a risk to be taken seriously. Now for the redundant arguement. You want both Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains to avoid hate, if you are trying to dodge graveyard hate adding an additional 1R to 3BUU isn't attractive at all; even with Lion's Eye Diamond. Infernal Tutor does have better synergy with Ill-gotten Gains than Burning Wish, however, a common play I do is Infernal(Revealing: Lion's Eye Diamond) then Burning Wishing. I then have a tutor in the graveyard so I can loop. Also, a slot in the sideboard for Ill-Gotten Gains never goes to waste. Ill-Gotten Gains is always a gauranteed victory where as Diminishing returns isn't, so Gains is often safer.


Magus of the Jar isn't redundant in the SB, because the SB isn't built in the traditional sense; in fact, the SB is separated into three mini-SBs, one for Burning Wish, one for Living Wish and one for whatever is left. None of the mini-SBs should take into account what the other SB is using, because each one exists separate from the other, and each one must have enough targets for their respective wishes in order to be viable. Your sideboard may not be built in a traditional senses, however, everyone else's happens to be. The sideboard I posted is a very traditional SB for combo with a wish. There's no reason to play Living Wish though, you've yet to post a solid reason of why it's needed. Right now it's just another cool trick in my eyes, what advantages does it have over the cards being cut for it? Tendrils wins you the game now where Minion wins the game in three turns. Empty the Warrens clock is a whole turn faster without the loss of life and I'm not sure what else you cut but I'm sure it's better.

[BreathWeapon]

While I agree that Living Wish could be worse than the two cards I cut for it, 2 Empty the Warrens, that doesn't mean it's not an option for people to consider if Empty the Warrens isn't there cup of tea.

Edit: Two Tendrils is redundant, being redundant is the point of two Tendrils, to have another in case the other is removed (kind of like your kidney's). Two or three Warrens is also redundant, but not in the same sense, because Warrens wants to be in the starting hand or with in range of Plunge into Darkness while Tendrils doesn't.

As far as Living Wish not changing the deck goes, what I mean is that if I don't draw Living Wish, then the rest of the deck performs in the same sense as the other versions of TES, no critical component was cut for its inclusion. When I do draw Living Wish, of course Living Wish "changes" the deck from the other versions of TES.

I'm going to premise this with that I have never seen a deck that has used MD Swords to Plowshares in aggro or Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt in aggro-control, I am not casting Minion of the Wastes into Swords to Plowshares or Magus of the Jar into Lightning Bolt; to insinuate that I am as a counter argument for the card's possible inclusion is a straw man argument against Living Wish. While I realize that creature removal is a detterent to the use of the card, with the appropriate skill, the pilot can tutor for Dark Confidant against Swords to Plowshares, Minion of the Wastes or Tomb of Urami against Lightning Bolt and Magus of the Jar when the coast is clear etc.

Yes, casting a Xantid Swarm and resolving a Tendrils of Agony was always the game plan, and it still is the game plan, but Simian Spirit Guide and Living Wish are good at assisting that game plan via countering Dazes on Xantid Swarm or recurring Xantid Swarm after a Swords to Plowshares, so it's not as if the cards are "alien" to the deck.

The second Ill Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns remark was a rhetorical question, I understand the reason both of them are there.

I'm starting to think that the SB argument is a sham, because even with the full Living Wish board, I can still SB in the exact same cards against Threshold and Goblins as those cards that are listed on the primer (Shattering Spree is debatable against Goblins, sometimes Earthquake was just as good).

Need was never a premise for including Living Wish, but as far as what Living Wish offers the deck, MD access to Dark Confidant, Tomb of Urami (yeah, I know it's already in there, but it's completely random) and a Stifle proof threat in Minion of the Wastes. I like the fact that Magus of the Jar isn't permanent, I'm just using it to either combo off or get the resources I invested in it back and then some with out rearming the opponent.

[outsideangel]

One of the interesting things about Living Wish is that it doesn't change the fundamental nature of the deck, just removing the redundant MD win conditions and SB slots allows Living Wish to be included with out disturbing the basic premise.

Since I started using Simian Spirit Guide, and now Living Wish, I've noticed that the two cards reinforce TES's general game plan, put a Xantid Swarm on the board and win with Tendrils of Agony, by protecting the Xantid Swarm from Daze and Swords to Plowshares.


I think this is the strongest artugment for the inclusion of Living Wish- that it removes somewhat redundant pieces for additional utility. The question is whether redundancy or utility is stronger at this point.

What we have to be aware of is that, at some point, if we keep adding utility in the place of redundancy, eventually the deck is going to get diluted to the point that its primary win condition is ultimately weakened to the point of breaking. We really have to find that line and be careful not to cross it.

[BreathWeapon]

I think this is the strongest artugment for the inclusion of Living Wish- that it removes somewhat redundant pieces for additional utility. The question is whether redundancy or utility is stronger at this point.

What we have to be aware of is that, at some point, if we keep adding utility in the place of redundancy, eventually the deck is going to get diluted to the point that its primary win condition is ultimately weakened to the point of breaking. We really have to find that line and be careful not to cross it.

That's about the best answer,

I imagine the min/max for Living Wish is 2/3 with 1 Tendrils, 1 Ill Gotten Gains, 1 Empty the Warrens in the MD with Diminishing Returns MD being the question mark because the Empty the Warrens is another out against a Force of Will in the discard pile and doesn't need a storm engine.

I'm not certain I would ever cut a Plunge into Darkness, even when the deck draws two, the second can always "cycle."

I'm going to grow some balls and take a 3xLiving Wish build with a full Living Wish SB to a tournament this weekend and see how I do with it.

[Citrus-God]

I believe combo can, and does, win small, and I know that Semmenen would agree with me. If the basic principle behind TES is to "Go big or go home," then TES is going to be worse at it then Belcher. Believe me, I've been behind both TES and Belcher for more games than I care to recall, and the deciding factor for me between the two decks is which deck can win small and use skill, and TES is that deck.

If you look at how Smmenen plays Gifts and Grim Long, you'll realize that it's the same recurring pattern when he plays those decks: He plays it small until he can set-up a big win or he wins now. I'm sure Bryant does that too, but I dont it's actually for the long game. When he plays with Confidant, he makes sure it does those simple tasks to make he's long game is easier for him to make Tendrils lethel at that time with all the cards he's seen with confidant active.

If you look at how Smmenen plays against Control (depending on the hand usually), he usually goes off right there regardless of what they have, or he sets-up Mind's Desire. The way he plays Gifts is somewhat similair as well, as he tries and wear them out and then go-off or he goes off now.

[BreathWeapon]

If you look at how Smmenen plays Gifts and Grim Long, you'll realize that it's the same recurring pattern when he plays those decks: He plays it small until he can set-up a big win or he wins now. I'm sure Bryant does that too, but I dont it's actually for the long game. When he plays with Confidant, he makes sure it does those simple tasks to make he's long game is easier for him to make Tendrils lethel at that time with all the cards he's seen with confidant active.

If you look at how Smmenen plays against Control (depending on the hand usually), he usually goes off right there regardless of what they have, or he sets-up Mind's Desire. The way he plays Gifts is somewhat similair as well, as he tries and wear them out and then go-off or he goes off now.

It's all semantics, we're all ending the game in a single turn with Tendrils, in a few turns with Warrens or, in my case, a couple turns with Minion.

The difference is I win small(er) than Wastedlife, using Warrens to avoid Force of Will and turn Dark Ritual into a counter target on the first turn, since Simian Spirit Guide is uncounterable, bait Daze to keep the opponent off of Meddling Mage and Counterspell and now Living Wish to recur Xantid Swarms and/or drop Dark Confidants on the opponent until the card advantage and 2 points of damage a turn grinds them out of the game.

IMO, I'm more prepared for aggro-control and the "if the opponent draws permission and/or hate and I don't draw Xantid Swarm" scenarios, and I get to win small(er) with the little synergies like being able to RFG a Xantid Swarm with Plunge into Darkness while searching for LED and tutor up the Xantid Swarm again with Living Wish and cast it on the next turn etc.

Edit: For the record the Art/Ench removal card in the SB is Harmonic Sliver, tho' that stupid Vindicate Sliver is tempting. Hell, Vindicate is just tempting.

[Giles]

I just read that as, "I don't understand how play TES."



No one is casting Living Wish for Magus of the Jar on turn one, casting Magus of the Jar on turn two and activating Magus of the Jar on turn three. Living Wish for Magus of the Jar is a second or third threat that grinds the opponent out of the game,
I thought that was the reason Bob was in the board for. I guess I was wrong a wasted SB slot on something that does not do anything does something...[/sarcasm]
Seriously, Burning Wish is the best tutor in the deck. Wasting 3 spots that is going to nothing is just wreaking the deck.


For instance, TES is on the draw, it's game 2, the opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares, now at this point Living Wish can tutor for the Xantid Swarm and protect another threat or another threat can be cast.

The opponent puts an Island on the board, taps both lands to cast Meddling Mage naming LED, go.

Cast Burning Wish, opponent casts Force of Will, and now Living Wish can either tutor up a Dark Confidant to win small or Magus of the Jar to win big on the following turns.

And you will need two lands and somehow not have the jar be counted and recover to win.

The best was to do this is to go the ETW route or wish for Quake..........Since L Wish requires green mana is not going to help with the combo plan.


Now for a second premise.
kk


The opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

TES has a hand that can combo out, but it doesn't have protection, Xantid Swarm, or an alternate threat, Empty the Warrens, to play around any of the opponent's disruption, you Brainstorm and reveal more mana and pass the turn.

The opponent puts an Island on the board, go

Living Wish in hand, Infernal Tutor and more than enough mana to combo off in hand. Cast Dark Ritual, cast Living Wish and cast Dark Confidant, the opponent casts Force of Will on Dark Confidant. If the opponent had Swords to Plowshares he would have cast it, if all the opponent had in his was Force of Will he would be set up for a loss.

The opponent puts a Tropical Island on the board, casts a threat, go.

At this point it smells like Stifle, combo off into Diminishing Returns and proceed to have a prayer.

I will give you that Living Wish will give you a "Neat Trick." but that is all that is neat.

[/quote]Now for a third premise.

Opponent puts a Fetchland on the board and cracks it for Tundra, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares on Xantid Swarm.

Opponent puts an Island on the board, go.

The opponent has another card, it's either going to be Force of Will or Stifle, the hand has enough mana to combo off and needs to consider doing it right now, the opponent has cast one Swords to Plowshares, if he has Force of Will he wins regardless, if he has Stifle ... Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes at 19/19 ... he had Stifle.[/quote]
Always assume that the opponet is holding a FOW. Even the Burn might have a "Fow" in there hand.
[/quote]
All your situation that you gave will get out the counters. But there is nothing to recover form having your plan foiled.



Minion of the Wastes is not "just stupid," this could come as a surprise, but there are aggro-control and control decks that don't use Swords to Plowshares, GAT, Faerie Stompy, U/g/r Threshold, U/g/b Threshold and a slew of other home brew decks.
Yes, Minion of the Wastes is stupid. Three Points:
Litte known fact: All aggro-control decks run StP and/or Fow
There is Anti-synergy with City of Brass and Plunge into Darkness
They are not going to counter the Living wish.... they will counter the threat or have removal in your hand.


Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain costs 8 mana, the same amount of mana as Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes, and an unprotected Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain gives the opponent the same amount of outs, Force of Will and Stifle, as a Minion of the Wastes, Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares, and Swords to Plowshares can be baited with Xantid Swarms or SB Dark Confidants etc.
Actually IT -> IGG is 6 mana not 8. How is living wish helping the situation then, if you played Igg?


My biggest problem with the wish that is does NOTHING mid-combo.
I am selling Living Wish. I rather run the blue Pact then wish.

Feel free to run it. I am not going to stop you. I am just going to see you fizzle more with Living wish in the deck.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't know how to use TES?

The Ill Gotten Gains chain is a minimum of EIGHT MANA, 2 mana to cast Infernal Tutor, 4 mana to cast Ill Gotten Gains and then 2 more mana to recast the Infernal Tutor, assuming that the deck used 2 LED in order to generate the 6 mana needed for Ill Gotten Gains and the second Infernal Tutor, and it's the same for Burning Wish with an Infernal Tutor in the discard pile.

The color of Living Wish does not matter, as long as there is another source of mana on the board, a second land, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or even LED and SSG there's no problem.

Edit: I use SSG and not Right of Flame, so the mana doesn't bottle neck into black and red as bad as it does in other lists.

What is "Mid Combo" in TES? This isn't Solidarity, there is no "Mid Combo," if you mean before the combo, it either recurs Xantid Swarm, plays Dark Confidant, plays Tomb of Urami or it doesn't matter at all and I just win with it.

Aggro-control uses Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares? People wont counter the tutors before the tutor target? It's bad to cast Minion of the Wastes after a Plunge into Darkness? NO WAY! Dude, I've bean playing the deck just as long as Wastedlife has, I know what I am doing.

[outsideangel]

You can do it on 7. If you have a Dark Ritual and an LED, you can Tutor for Ill-Gotten Gains (2 mana) cast I'll-Gotten Gains (6 mana) recurring Dark Ritual, LED, Tutor, cast Dark Ritual (7 mana) and the ritual and LED will give you enough mana to replay the tutor and then play the Tendrils or EtW you grab with it.

Anyway, is there a viable wincondition with Living Wish that doesn't suck? What about Storm Entity, so that if for some reason you can't find a good tutor Living Wish can still get a wincon that doesn't cost a billion mana and life?

Also, Mesmeric Fiend for disruption seems good.

My Living Wishboard might looks something like:

Storm Entity
Mesmeric Fiend
Dark Confidant
Tomb of Urami

This gives you card advantage, a mana source, disruption, a storm-based win condition, and an alternate win condition. Fiend could become Uktabi Orangutan or Harmonic Sliver if you're more worried about artifact/enchantment hate than about countermagic.

[BreathWeapon]

Right, I I forgot that LED leaves two mana floating after the IGG chain for some reason, serves me for getting aggrivated.

The problem I had with Mesmeric Fiend was that it took up another slot in the SB and Dark Confidant manages to do the same thing in a different manner, and I don't like taking up slots in the SB for cards that can be RFGed with Plunge into Darkness and tutored for later; for instance if Plunge into Darkness RFG's Xantid Swarm then Living Wish for Xantid Swarm would just be better.

Storm Entity is a card I couldn't get to work with Right of Flame, but I never tested him with Simian Spirit Guide. If the deck can manage to get the green mana after a Diminishing Returns for Living Wish off of a land drop, Lotus Petal or a Chrome Mox then I imagine getting the Red mana would be a lot easier at 0 for R to resolve a really big Storm Entity at a really low price.

I'm going to test him in the SB and see how he does, Tomb of Urami could get the axe for him if he proves to be worthwhile.

Man, Minion of the Wastes is so good at turning busted hands into a win vs decks that can't answer him, just PT against Faerie Stompy and you'll see exactly what I mean.

[outsideangel]

I'd like having the Tomb in my SB, more than I think I'd like Minion, because it is also a mana source.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd like having the Tomb in my SB, more than I think I'd like Minion, because it is also a mana source.

Another option is Exalted Angel, as bad as it sounds, it's about as fast as a Tomb of Urami, it can out race aggro with the Lifelink and the deck can turn into aggro-control after the other threats are exhausted or after the top deck.

I'm certain Wastedlife is going to shit a brick over that proposal:eek:

[Whit3 Ghost]

Why would you need to outrace agro unless you kept an ass awful hand?

It's a full turn slower then Tomb. It's mana cost is obscene, it's a late-late game card, and if you're havn't beat agro by then, you've probably already lost. It's one advantage is not dying to Deed/EE/Punishment/Powder Keg.

What type of control can this deck play? You don't maindeck Chant, and as far as I know, you have no control options.

[calosso]

I am curious, why are you playing with living wish instead of the original? Minion of wastes seems awful since empty for 16 guys or tendrils for fatal seems like a far superior plan.

Why are you playing both wishes? It seems like your board is being to stretched, and your mana base seems like it won't be able to take it.

[BreathWeapon]

I am curious, why are you playing with living wish instead of the original? Minion of wastes seems awful since empty for 16 guys or tendrils for fatal seems like a far superior plan.

Why are you playing both wishes? It seems like your board is being to stretched, and your mana base seems like it won't be able to take it.

Access to Dark Confidants game one, increasing the number of Dark Confidants game two, recurring Xantid Swarm after Swords to Plowshares, casting Minion of the Wastes to circumvent Stifle and Engineered Explosives as well as other storm based hate, access to Tomb of Urami and SB bombs like Magus of the Jar.

Edit: It also increases the deck's access to tutor based removal

There's been no changes to the SB plans against the top three decks, so having two Wish boards doesn't seem to be a serious issue, and I use Simian Spirit Guide instead of Right of Flame, so the mana is smoother.

Living Wish is for winning small.

P.S. Exalted Angel was a joke.

[matelml]

A few posts back you (breathweapon) said you needed 8 mana for a ill-gotten gains chain. That's not always true, if you have 7 of which 5 is created by LED plus dark ritual, you can combo with IGG+infernal tutor too.

something like:
tap 2 land,play brainstorm, play lotus petal, play dark ritual, LED, infernal, sac LED, search for IGG and play IGG, return ritual, LED and tutor play them, search for Tendrils for 20.

I'm sure most of you already saw this but just to note.

[Citrus-God]

I can see Tombstalker in the SB instead of Angel...

Tombstaker has a reduced cost and is evasive...

[noobslayer]

I'd suggest that any further discussion on the living wish build be made in another thread. You are talking about some significant changes to your mana base, and an entirely new sideboard.

On that note, I think burning wish is really what makes this deck insane, in conjunction with LED, and that it can fetch any relevant and powerful spell you need, I don't really see the logic in adding another tutor that doesn't even shore up to that power level. Add in that burning wish is accelerated by the best secondary color accelerants available.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd suggest that any further discussion on the living wish build be made in another thread. You are talking about some significant changes to your mana base, and an entirely new sideboard.

On that note, I think burning wish is really what makes this deck insane, in conjunction with LED, and that it can fetch any relevant and powerful spell you need, I don't really see the logic in adding another tutor that doesn't even shore up to that power level. Add in that burning wish is accelerated by the best secondary color accelerants available.

There's nothing all that significant about the changes, that's the thing, I haven't had a single SB plan against a match up that has been affected via Living Wish taking up SB slots, and I feel that Living Wish offers the deck a lot of things Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish don't; casting Xantid Swarm again after a Swords to Plowshares, casting Dark Confidant and tutoring for Tomb of Urami are good enough in most cases against aggro-control, and Minion of the Wastes, Magus of the Jar and Harmonic Sliver are all still options at the deck's disposal. The card doesn't have to be more powerful than Burning Wish, in order to be good, and I'm not even certain it's less powerful than Burning Wish, it's just powerful on a different scale.

I'm not advocating that Living Wish should or shouldn't be included in the deck, I'm advocating that the card is a serious option for people who are open minded enough to see its potential.

Simian Spirit is and isn't a significant change to the manabase, I use them in the Living Wish version because I just can't pilot this deck with out "counter target Daze" at this point.

Following the 7 to 9 rule, Simian Spirit Guide and 3 Empty the Warrens makes a lot of sense, take the build on the front page with the following changes, -1 Tendrils of Agony, +1 Empty the Warrens, -4 Right of Flame, +4 Simian Spirit Guide.

At this point SSG starts to make sense on the 7 to 9 principle


3 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm

7 outs to counters.

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish

7 alternate win conditions

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Burning Wish

8 cards that bait Force of Will

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Simian Spirit Guide

8 anti-counters, one for Force of Will and one for Daze.

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

8 Tutors

4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Brainstorm

8 Search

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

8 sources of BB+

4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide

8 sources of 0 for R

4 Chrome Mox
11 Land

15 permanent mana sources

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns

3 slots that don't abide by the 7 to 9 rule

There is a thought process behind the card, and I don't think it's all that radical to suggest Simian Spirit Guide as a change to the manabase when the card is an analog to Right of Flame.

TES has a superior access to 3 colors with SSG on the first two turns and superior access to 2 colors after a Diminishing Returns, and considering I win more games with Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens than Wastedlife, the greater distribution of mana is more important to me than the storm and chances of extra mana.

It's important to remember, all I care about is beating U/g/w Threshold.

[b4r0n]

It's important to remember, all I care about is beating U/g/w Threshold.

If that's what you're trying to accomplish by running Living Wish, wouldn't Orim's Chant or even Defense Grid be better options?

I feel that Living Wish dilutes the fundamental concept of the deck, which is to win fast. You can't afford to be reactive; you want to combo out and win. Simply put, nothing that you are getting with Living Wish is fast enough or relevant enough to further this deck's strategy. I think you'd have more success with a deck like Salvager if you're dead set on using Living Wish.

[BreathWeapon]

If that's what you're trying to accomplish by running Living Wish, wouldn't Orim's Chant or even Defense Grid be better options?

I feel that Living Wish dilutes the fundamental concept of the deck, which is to win fast. You can't afford to be reactive; you want to combo out and win. Simply put, nothing that you are getting with Living Wish is fast enough or relevant enough to further this deck's strategy. I think you'd have more success with a deck like Salvager if you're dead set on using Living Wish.

No, that's the reason I use Simian Spirit Guide instead of Right of Flame, I can counter Daze and cast Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns on turn two.

Living Wish is just an experiment, people will either love it or hate it after using it.

[Cait_Sith]

Living Wish is just an experiment, people will either love it or hate it after using it.

Comboing out Living Wish is dead. Period. You could argue that you could get Tomb, but Burning wish would fetch Empty for more tokens that are not vulnerable to the single most common removal spell in the entire format. Nothing else you can find becomes relevant during the combo. Burning Wish is almost always relevant, since it finds Igg and Returns, your best combo enablers, and Tendrils and Warrens, your best wincons.

And Simian Spirit Guide is almost strictly WORSE than Rite of Flame. It CANNOT provide more mana than Rite. It CANNOT be Igg'd. It CANNOT be returned via Returns and slightly ups the odds of losing more important cards to returns. It DOES NOT add to Threshold for Cabal Ritual. What does it get in return? It cannot be countered. Like Rite under Xantid Swarm. Oh goody.

[Nightmare]

We're done discussing Living Wish in this thread. Feel free to start a new thread about a Living Wish - based Storm Combo deck in N&D, but it should not continue in the LMF.

[BreathWeapon]

Comboing out Living Wish is dead. Period. You could argue that you could get Tomb, but Burning wish would fetch Empty for more tokens that are not vulnerable to the single most common removal spell in the entire format. Nothing else you can find becomes relevant during the combo. Burning Wish is almost always relevant, since it finds Igg and Returns, your best combo enablers, and Tendrils and Warrens, your best wincons.

And Simian Spirit Guide is almost strictly WORSE than Rite of Flame. It CANNOT provide more mana than Rite. It CANNOT be Igg'd. It CANNOT be returned via Returns and slightly ups the odds of losing more important cards to returns. It DOES NOT add to Threshold for Cabal Ritual. What does it get in return? It cannot be countered. Like Rite under Xantid Swarm. Oh goody.

Find a spoiler for Storm Entity,

Threshold is irrelevant, it's not something the deck attempts to achieve so much as it's something the deck gains as the game progresses past the third turn. Storm is irrelevant, because if the deck has the mana for the Ill Gotten Gains chain it has the storm as well, and it can just tutor for Warrens instead of Tendrils at the end of the chain if it is relevant. RFGing is irrelevant, the statistical odds aren't significant after a Diminishing Returns, difficult to calculate, can't be calculated with out assumptions and I've noticed no difference in actual game play.

No, I can't recur Right of Flame in an IGG chain, but a Right of Flame can't counter a Daze either.

Right of Flame produces more mana than SSG in multiples, while SSG produces more mana than Right of Flame after Diminishing Returns, 0 for R, when the deck can't float red mana, which is a common occurrence when the deck uses Diminishing Returns aggressively.

I've won more games using Simian Spirit Guide to counter Daze on Xantid Swarm than I care to recall, that alone doesn't make the card "strictly inferior."

[Sycik]

BreathWeapon, I dare to ask, but are you testing against ANYTHING other than U/G/w Thresh? By your comments I'd assume not, which is a very scary thought.

First things first, in all cases EXCEPT daze, force spike or mana tithe, do we agree that Rite of Flame is an overall better mana producer?

Let's consider some facts and some possibilities

1) Of the metagame decks, Thresh is the ONLY one that runs any of the "pay :1: " counters.

2) You may not even run into Thresh in your entire day of playing.

3) Even if you do run into Thresh, for SSG to be most useful, you have to use it reactively which is something you've even stated yourself that you do not want to be. (read: SSG is much more reactive than Rite)

4) Also - even if you do run into Thresh, there will be plenty of times that either they'll have Daze and you won't have SSG, or you'll have SSG and they won't have Daze. Alot of Thresh builds only run 3x Daze so either of these scenarios are VERY likely.

Basically, the times when SSG would be more useful than Rite of Flame are so few and far between that I'm not willing to sacrifice the additional mana that Rite of Flame can provide. As I've said before, I've even gone to 4 Cabal Rituals because there have been plenty of times when I've said "If I just had that one extra mana".

[BreathWeapon]

BreathWeapon, I dare to ask, but are you testing against ANYTHING other than U/G/w Thresh? By your comments I'd assume not, which is a very scary thought.

First things first, in all cases EXCEPT daze, force spike or mana tithe, do we agree that Rite of Flame is an overall better mana producer?

Let's consider some facts and some possibilities

1) Of the metagame decks, Thresh is the ONLY one that runs any of the "pay :1: " counters.

2) You may not even run into Thresh in your entire day of playing.

3) Even if you do run into Thresh, for SSG to be most useful, you have to use it reactively which is something you've even stated yourself that you do not want to be. (read: SSG is much more reactive than Rite)

4) Also - even if you do run into Thresh, there will be plenty of times that either they'll have Daze and you won't have SSG, or you'll have SSG and they won't have Daze. Alot of Thresh builds only run 3x Daze so either of these scenarios are VERY likely.

Basically, the times when SSG would be more useful than Rite of Flame are so few and far between that I'm not willing to sacrifice the additional mana that Rite of Flame can provide. As I've said before, I've even gone to 4 Cabal Rituals because there have been plenty of times when I've said "If I just had that one extra mana".

I test against U/g/w, U/g/r, U/g/b, EBA, Faerie Stompy, AfFOWnity, Landstill and Aluren.

No, I don't agree that Rite of Flame is superior to Simian Spirit Guide in all cases other than Daze and Disrupt, High Tide has a SB (1) counter to.

1) Threshold is the most predominant aggro-control deck and High Tide is the most predominant combo-control deck, pre-boarding for Threshold and High Tide with Xantid Swarm is done on a regular basis, Simian Spirit Guide is just taking it one step further.

2) Then I won the tournament.

3) I meant not answering the opponent's hate with tutors and instead tutoring for an alternate threat to disregard the hate, Simian Spirit Guide has nothing to do with this.

4) There will be a lot of times when I have Xantid Swarm and the opponent doesn't have Force of Will, or when the opponent has Force of Will and I don't have Xantid Swarm; am I suppose to judge the merit of a card based on not drawing it or the opponent not drawing the card it was included for?

The reason people think that Right of Flame is a better mana producer than Simian Spirit Guide in this deck is because they're comparing them side by side on paper instead of comparing them after testing both of them in the deck.

If there is no Swarm in hand, I go for turn one Warrens, which requires more 0 for R mana sources in order to be a consistent play and resistant to Force of Will. If there is a Swarm in hand, and that Swarm is countered or killed, then instead of Wish for Warrens or Plunge for Xantid or Warrens, I go for Infernal for Returns or Wish for Returns with at most a black and maybe a blue mana floating; this is where Right of Flame is dead, Simian Spirit Guide is live and it can add R to the mana pool or protect a ritual from Daze, the odds of which are 80% plus if the opponent didn't draw it in his first 7 cards and drew a new 7 cards off of Returns.

I do not expect to win with Ill Gotten Gains against aggro-control ever, and I do not expect to win with Tendrils of Agony against aggro-control ever. I prepare for the worst case scenarios such as getting the Xantid Swarm Dazed, getting the Xantid Swarm Force of Willed, getting the Xantid Swarm killed and then ask three questions, how do I win around Stifle, how do I win before the opponent casts Meddling Mage or Null Rod and is Empty the Warrens resistant to Force of Will? The answer to the fist and second questions is to Diminishing Returns now, gaining red mana off of Simian Spirit Guide, and the answer to the third question is to cast Dark Ritual, cast a Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal, have the opponent Force of Will it, and then use Simian Spirit Guide to generate the red mana and cast Empty the Warrens or have the opponent Force of Will the Dark Ritual, and then I cast Empty the Warrens the next turn.

So, Simian Spirit Guide is a better mana source in the first two turns of the game while Right of Flame is a better mana source after that or if it manages to draw multiples and the opponent has no defense against it. I am way, way more aggressive with this deck than Wastedlife is, because I have to deal with people who use 4 Daze MD Stifle and SB Null Rod, and I am not waiting around for the last two of those three to GG me.

Easier access to R mana is also a big deal against Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void at one, Right of Flame is worthless there, and Simian Spirit Guide is adding a mana under Trinisphere for Shattering Spree or adding another red mana to destroy Chalice of the Void.

Simian Spirit Guide can't be Duressed either, which has saved my ass by allowing me to Brainstorm the Empty the Warrens back on top of the deck, and in desperate situations he's a 2/2 the cleans up after an Empty the Warrens or Tendrils of Agony falls short, which has also saved my ass after a Swords to Plowshares on a Werebear.

Believe me, I have spent a lot of time with the card, I'm not judging it based on speculation.

[CalebD]

I like 1-2 simian, but it really hurts your storm count if you have multiples, which in turn makes it that much harder to win turn 1-2, so I don't think you're right when you say "x is better than x turns x-x." In nearly every case, it's going to be situation-dependent. With that in mind, do you use the one that has the higher power level or the lower? You can't argue that simian has a higher power level, as it doesn't add storm, and it has no possibility for adding more than one mana.

As a metagame choice, Simian isn't bad. In the end your ETWs will be weaker, and you'll have a rougher time getting lethal storm for tendrils.



Here's a quick puzzle, if anyone cares to solve it. It's not that hard, but takes a little thought.

You're on the draw G1, and your opponents first turn is Wasteland-Aether Vial.

Diminishing Returns
Chrome Mox
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Chrome Mox
Infernal Tutor
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony

What's the play?

Edit: you CAN go off this turn!

[Nihil Credo]

It's 95% likely he's playing Goblins, I have no Wasteland targets, and he doesn't have the RG mana to Hooligan my Mox. I can't go off with this hand on turn 1, so waiting another draw step seems the best option. So I play Chrome Mox, and I have to choose what to imprint (if anything). Diminishing Returns will require a LED to be cast; on the other side, Empty the Warrens is a risky win condition against Goblins, because they might still maindeck Sharpshooter (or even Pyromancer). Then again, this hand needs black mana to get started, badly. With my very limited experience with TES, I'd imprint Tendrils and pass - if I drop 14 Goblins next turn, they will probably not get the time to find and activate Sharpshooter before dying.

I shouldn't play Dark Ritual combo. Ever.

[troopatroop]

You're on the draw G1, and your opponents first turn is Wasteland-Aether Vial.

Diminishing Returns
Chrome Mox
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Chrome Mox
Infernal Tutor
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony

What's the play?

Edit: you CAN go off this turn!


Mox imprinting Tendrils

Tap, Play Ritual

Play Infernal Tutor, Fetching Warrens

play Mox Imprinting Warrens

Cast Dark Ritual

Tap Mox for Red, Cast Empty the Warrens for 12 Tokens.

[BreathWeapon]

Yes, Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide is situations dependent, but Simian Spirit Guide shines in the first two turns of the game, while Right of Flame shines as the game progresses and multiples are drawn.

If more people were around for post-restriction Burning Long and Steve's Draw7 combo deck, I don't think people would doubt how good a Spirit Guide is in a combo deck that uses a Draw7. Just when the deck had Fastbond and Crop Rotation Elvish Spirit Guide was a great card, with Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens Simian Spirit Guide is an amazing card.

One of the lessons I learned a long time ago is that storm just comes, I haven't cast an Empty the Warrens for less than three ever, and that's good enough for me against aggro-control and control.

[outsideangel]

Yes, Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide is situations dependent, but Simian Spirit Guide shines in the first two turns of the game, while Right of Flame shines as the game progresses and multiples are drawn.


This is not entirely accurate. In the first few turns, you haven't seen many cards, and are unlikely to be able to generate a very high storm count. If you need to go off with a Tendrils quickly, as you would in the combo mirror, SSG not adding to the storm count or being replayable via Ill-Gotten Gains will often make it weaker than Rite of Flame. I regularly kill with the perfect 10 Tendrils, as it's difficult to storm for more on an opening grip, and most Tendrils kills revolve around the Gains loop, where SSG is pretty bad. In short, there are matchups where you need to Tendrils early, and SSG seems worse than Rite in those matchups.

[Citrus-God]

Well, it's nice that people like to be impulsive with EtW, but the fact that Rite of Flames add to storm actually is very crucial against a control deck. Against aggro-control, you want Rite of Flames to add to your storm when you're setting up EtW or Double Tendrils. SSG is good because it gets around Lock Components though. I might rather run SSG as a metagame choice.

[Abeyoncé]

Hi, it's my first post here.:smile:

I've been following the thread for a couple of weeks, and I'm currently playing TES.

I think Rite of Flame > SSG, and if anyone wants to include the simians in Rite slots, is a metagame call. Reasons are obvious and have been explained before.
However, it seems very important to me the power of Simian when Diminishing and first turn ETW. So, has anyone tested a split 2/2 of Cabal Ritual and SSG? The idea is to make easier to kill with Returns, without losing the storm (when you draw SSG in multiples) and reduce the mulligans decreasing the number of caba ritual.
And what about if we cut the Cabal Rituals and add the SSG (-4/+4)?
The only problems I see in the -4 / +4 is that maybe it would be harder to add BB for Tendrils, but you still have Chrome/Petal/Dark Ritual, and it also would be harder the IGG chain without LED.

I don't know if that changes will work, I'll test this week and we will see.

[Hummingbird TG]

Can anyone kindly tell me how to sideboard when against Deadguy Ale? Help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[CalebD]

Can anyone kindly tell me how to sideboard when against Deadguy Ale? Help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

-4 Xantid
+4 Dark Confidant

Play aggressively, and test the matchup a bit. Discard is, in my opinion, the easiest form of hate to play through. I'd much rather my opponnent went turn one dark ritual, duress-hymn than went turn one chalice for one-go.

Don't forget about brainstorm, it's the simplest anti-discard combo move in the book, but it's very important.

Also, they'll be boarding in plagues, but it can still be 100% correct to go for EtW sometimes. After you test a lot you should get the hang of it.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, it's nice that people like to be impulsive with EtW, but the fact that Rite of Flames add to storm actually is very crucial against a control deck. Against aggro-control, you want Rite of Flames to add to your storm when you're setting up EtW or Double Tendrils. SSG is good because it gets around Lock Components though. I might rather run SSG as a metagame choice.


Daze, Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void are all selling points of the card, one of the things that attracted to me to it was that it was an answer for Stax via Shattering Spree that Vintage Long was using when it replaced its ESGs with SSGs and added Burning Wish so it could use Demonic Consultation. Regardless, one of the more popular decks here is a W/g Stax deck that uses all of the traditional Stax components with Magus of the Tabernacle, Living Wish for the original Tabernacle, Cataclysm and Sylvan Library, so you really have to be able to dig your way out from underneath a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void if you want to win a match after you've lost the coin flip.

There's a difference between being impulsive with ETW and being tactical with it, I find against a lot of decks that Land, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual into ETW can be used to not win the game, but ware the opponent down, forcing him to cast his threats, dig for answers and lose track of Tendrils. Just going for Diminishing Returns into a large ETW is also better than dealing with a Tormod's Crypt etc.

In an unrelated matter, I've been testing Doomsday in the SB and it has been an interesting inclusion. As long as the deck has a Burning Wish and a Brainstorm in its hand, it can Burning Wish for Doomsday, stack Infernal Tutor, LED, LED, IGG and Tendrils and then cast the Brainstorm for Infernal Tutor, LED, LED and win the game. It's 1R + BBB + U + 1B with out LED to do it in a single turn, and it can be spread out over multiples turns such as, turn one land, Chrome Mox and Burning Wish for Doomsday, turn two land, Dark Ritual casting Doomsday, Brainstorm and then RFG Simian Spirit Guide casting Infernal Tutor turn two for the BBB + U + 1B.

I'm not certain it's needed, but being able to win on turn two with Tendrils and with out LED is enticing, and while some people would just cast the Brainstorm there, against non-Goblins aggro GG is GG if the path to win is in the hand, and against aggro-control the deck could have cast Xantid Swarm and kept Brainstorm back.

[CalebD]

I like that idea. It seems like there would be very few times you would actually go for it, but those few times might make the difference. Couldn't hurt to test it.

[BreathWeapon]

I like that idea. It seems like there would be very few times you would actually go for it, but those few times might make the difference. Couldn't hurt to test it.

It's more or less a non-ETW, non-Diminishing Returns option for when the deck doesn't have LED, I'm not certain the number of occurrences of that warrant the SB slot, but cutting a Shattering Spree isn't the end of the world, and no one is going to see it coming.

[DeDennis]

I dont exactly understand how the game ends after the doomsday could you describe exactly what happens and if all is in the same turn etc.

thnx

[BreathWeapon]

I dont exactly understand how the game ends after the doomsday could you describe exactly what happens and if all is in the same turn etc.

thnx

Here's an example on the draw,

1 Xantid Swarm
1 Burning Wish
1 Brainstorm
1 Dark Ritual
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
1 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine

Turn one: City of Brass, Xantid Swarm and go
Turn two: Draw Burning Wish, Gemstone Mine, Burning Wish for Doomsday
Turn three: Draw Empty the Warrens, cast Dark Ritual, cast Doomsday, cast Lotus Petal, RFG Simian Spirit Guide, cast Brainstorm drawing Infernal Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond and replace them with Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens, cast Lion's Eye Diamond, cast Lion's Eye Diamond, cast Infernal Tutor and proceed with the Ill Gotten Gains Chain for 12 storm.

There are also a lot of other complications, like being able to replace the Infernal Tutor with Brainstorm and Lion's Eye Diamonds with Dark Rituals and move the Tendrils of Agony to the fourth card of the stack and go straight for the Tendrils of Agony if you have enough storm, against Tormod's Crypt, and you can replace the Tendrils of Agony with an Empty the Warrens, against Meddling Mage etc.

I've done some other real complicated things in the mid game with chaining into three Brainstorms via Brainstorm in hand, Brainstorm on top of the stack, Brainstorm on the fourth card of the stack and Tendrils of Agony on the bottom of the stack to win with a single Tendrils of Agony with out using an Ill Gotten Gains or a Lion's Eye Diamond when the opponent had a Tormod's Crypt and a Meddling Mage on Lion's Eye Diamond.

Disregarding LED, which makes the comparison non-sensible, I think Doomsday is a stronger engine than Ill Gotten Gains, if you really know what you are doing with Doomsday, you can just disregard all of the opponent's hate and win right there.

It gets even more complicated with Street Wraith in the deck, because then the deck can set up the Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony stack with out another Brainstorm in hand, but I wouldn't put Street Wraith in the deck just for Doomsday.

It's a complicated card with a lot of potential, with enough mana on the board, the triple Brainstorm stack can just disregard the opponent Force of Will in the discard pile and win, that's huge right there.

[CalebD]

you can replace the Tendrils of Agony with an Empty the Warrens, against Meddling Mage etc.

Leaving you with 1-2 cards left before you die. I don't like that plan, as the opponent can get out of it with some blockers+StP for life gain. In the case of MM on tendrils I'd rather wish up an answer for mage. After all, if they decide to name tendrils>a combo peice like LED then they probably don't fear EtW, and are more likely to have EE or clasm waiting for you.

It seems very tricky and very fragile without tendrils.

[outsideangel]

Leaving you with 1-2 cards left before you die. I don't like that plan, as the opponent can get out of it with some blockers+StP for life gain. In the case of MM on tendrils I'd rather wish up an answer for mage. After all, if they decide to name tendrils>a combo peice like LED then they probably don't fear EtW, and are more likely to have EE or clasm waiting for you.

It seems very tricky and very fragile without tendrils.

Agreed. Passing the turn with 1 card left in your deck seems a little weak. You lose to random stuff like Standstill + spell.

But I think the Doomsday -> Tendrils idea is strong, mostly because it can turn a hand that otherwise wouldn't be able to Tendrils into a hand that can. Just think of Doomsday as a super tutor and you're not far off.

How good would some copies (likely 1, maybe 2) of the card be MD, either replacing the weaker tutors (Plunge) or as a supplement to the existing tutor package?

[74o_Clownsuit]

So um....

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf142

This card looks to be ridiculous in a fast combo deck like TES. What do you guys think?

[BreathWeapon]

Leaving you with 1-2 cards left before you die. I don't like that plan, as the opponent can get out of it with some blockers+StP for life gain. It just seems very tricky and very fragile without tendrils, I think in the case of MM on tendrils I'd rather wish up an answer for mage. After all, if they decide to name tendrils>a combo peice like LED then they probably don't fear EtW, and are more likely to have EE or clasm waiting for you.

It's not that simple, there are a minimum of 2 cards left in the pile, the two cards from Brainstorm, and there can be as much as 4 cards left, so if the pile sets up a storm count for Empty the Warrens at under 10 it has at least 4 turns to win and if it sets up an Empty the Warrens for more than that it has at least 2 to 3 turns to win, if you can't win with Empty the Warrens before you draw 4 to 2 cards with an inversely proportional storm count, you weren't going to win any way.

People name LED all the time, it doesn't mean that they're holding a Pyroclasm, it just means that they don't want you to do anything ridiculous with your tutors.

The card isn't fragile, it's just complicated, and as long as the Brainstorm and the mana is there it's almost a guaranteed win.

Here are some examples,

BBBB and UUU = appr. win with out IGG or LED

Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, cast Doomsday, stack the deck with Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm and Tendrils of Agony, cast Brainstorm and draw Brainstorm, Dark Ritual and Dark Ritual putting two irrelevant cards back, cast Dark Ritual, cast Dark Ritual, cast Brainstorm and draw two irrelevant cards and Tendrils of Agony, cast Tendrils of Agony for 9 storm.

You can reduce the costs to BBBB and UU for 8 storm via moving the Tendrils of Agony to the fourth card in the stack.

BBB(1B) + R(1R) + U(U,U)= modular storm engine for Empty the Warrens

Dark Ritual, cast Doomsday, stack Right of Flame, Right of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Brainstorm drawing Right of Flame, Right of Flame, Empty the Warrens and put two irrelevant cards back, four cards remain, cast Right of Flame for RR, cast Right of Flame for RRR, Empty the Warrens for 6.

You can increase the storm count to 7 via adding a Brainstorm on top of the stack, and you can increase the storm count to 8 via replacing the third card on the stack with Brainstorm, and you can increase the storm count to 9 via replacing the fourth card on the stack with Infernal Tutor or

So, U increases the storm count by one and reduces the total number of turns Empty the Warrens can attack by, and you can do this twice, 1B increases the storm count by one and reduces the total number of turns Empty the Warrens can attack by, and you can do this thrice, and 1R increase the storm count by one and doesn't reduce the total number of turns the Empty the Warrens can attack, and you can do this once.

You can also replace the first instance of Red mana with an additional Black mana via altering the stack's use of Right of Flame, Right of Flame to Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit Guide to circumvent Null Rod.

BBB + U = MD Tendrils win using LED to cast multiple cantrips and either another LED or other accelerants for Tendrils of Agony.

Dark Ritual, Doomsday for Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, irrelevant, Tendrils of Agony, and now Brainstorm, floating UUU from LED and 2BB for Tendrils of Agony, drawing Brainstorm, Brainstorm and Brainstorm, put two Brainstorms back, Brainstorm drawing Brainstorm, Brainstorm and irrelevant and put Brainstorm and irrelevant black, Brainstorm drawing Brainstorm, irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony putting irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony back, Brainstorm drawing 3 cards and lose*

*Ok, that last part was to get the point across that replacing something in the deck (a Cabal Ritual) with a Sleight of Hand lets the deck complete this stack with out a problem.

Replacing the final Brainstorm with Sleight of Hand, Sleight of Hand revealing irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony, keep Tendrils of agony and put irrelevant on the bottom of your library (last card in the deck) and cast Tendrils of Agony.

Ok, assuming the deck can get 3 blue cantrips off of LED, that means that Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Lion's Eye Diamond and Brainstorm is 4 storm and the stack itself, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Sleight of Hand, irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony is 4 storm, so if you can find the mana to cast the Tendrils of Agony you should be able to win the game with it.

You can also pass the turn after casting Doomsday if you don't have a Brainstorm, which trades storm for mana, and you can set up similar multi Brainstorm stacks if you use Plunge into Darkness for one instead of Brainstorm to draw the first Brainstorm on the stack, it replaces the first instance of U with an instance of 1B, and that last stack can replace the Sleight of Hand with a Plunge into Darkness if it exchanges a U for 1B at the end of the stack.

There are also non-LED based Ill Gotten Gains piles to avoid Null Rod, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony for example lets the deck Brainstorm drawing Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, cast Dark Ritual, cast Dark Ritual, cast Ill Gotten Gains recurring Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, and then cast Dark Ritual, cast Dark Ritual, cast Brainstorm drawing garbage, garbage and Tendrils of Agony for the win at a cost of BBBB + UU and you can change the pile to Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony and then use Plunge into Darkness for BBBBB1 + U which you can easily do with two rituals, one blue mana and one or more colorless sources depending on whether or not those rituals were Cabal Rituals.

Ok, I'm about positive that Doomsday is a great engine to have access to in combo if you understand how to use the card and you have the mana,

The cheapest one turn win I've found so far is 1R + BBBB + UU for Burning Wish for that last pile with Brainstorm in hand, can't use LED, and the deck has good odds of getting that pile if it uses Simian Spirit Guide instead of Right of Flame to enable UU off of a Lotus Petal or a second land drop, which is real important.

I also think that if the deck can cast Burning Wish, cast Doomsday, cast Brainstorm with 2 Lion's Eye Diamond it can use a modified version of that cantrip stack to win with instead of going for the Infernal Tutor for a second copy of LED and then Burning Wish for Ill Gotten Gains plan, which avoids using Ill Gotten Gain with a Force of Will in the discard pile.

Ok, I'm going to go sleep for awhile, that took about all of the critical thinking I have.

[BreathWeapon]

Agreed. Passing the turn with 1 card left in your deck seems a little weak. You lose to random stuff like Standstill + spell.

But I think the Doomsday -> Tendrils idea is strong, mostly because it can turn a hand that otherwise wouldn't be able to Tendrils into a hand that can. Just think of Doomsday as a super tutor and you're not far off.

How good would some copies (likely 1, maybe 2) of the card be MD, either replacing the weaker tutors (Plunge) or as a supplement to the existing tutor package?

Separate post because the last one was complicated enough,

DDAY is not just a tutor, it is an engine, similar to Gifts Ungiven, it just requires having a Brainstorm in hand, a Plunge into Darkness to tutor for the Brainstorm on top of the deck or passing the turn to go off.

I haven't even figured out the ramifications on the stacks after I manage to Burning Wish for Doomsday, cast Doomsday on turn one or turn two and then pass the turn, which I can manage to do with one land, Dark Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide and one other source of mana, I figured after this the deck should go for the Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony stack or the modular Empty the Warrens stacks, but you have to figured out how to use Empty the Warrens in that Ill Gotten Gains stack in order to have a good enough storm count for a 2 turn win or luck sack some extra storm for the Tendrils kill from some where.

I have no idea what happens when this deck puts Doomsday in the deck, because Plunge into Darkness removes a bunch of shit and it gets really fucking complicated to assemble your stacks, and Doomsday is situational unless you want to pass the turn, you have Brainstorm or you have Plunge into Darkness in hand to go off on that turn with it or you want to start adding Street Wraith.

I'm sure something could be done with it, but passing the turn or requiring one of 12 other cards in hand and the absolute mind fuck of the card is enough to make me say I'd just stick to adding it to the SB.

I don't think Plunge into Darkness is weak, in fact I think it's stronger than Infernal Tutor.

Ok, seriously, I need rest. I'll answer your questions after my sanity returns, but if you look at the piles for yourself, you'll see how insane this card is under the right conditions; I'm literally not even giving a shit about Meddling Mage or Null Rod against Threshold, and that is just absurd.

[matelml]

it seems to me that to use doomsday optimaly you want to go of the turn you doomsday, but in most cases you showed you needed a source of black, red and multiple blue.That is almost impossible to do early in the game without LED or multiple lotus petals. I like doomsday cause it's really cool but I am not convinced it's not a win more card yet. I hope it turns out to be good.

[Citrus-God]

Daze, Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void are all selling points of the card, one of the things that attracted to me to it was that it was an answer for Stax via Shattering Spree that Vintage Long was using when it replaced its ESGs with SSGs and added Burning Wish so it could use Demonic Consultation. Regardless, one of the more popular decks here is a W/g Stax deck that uses all of the traditional Stax components with Magus of the Tabernacle, Living Wish for the original Tabernacle, Cataclysm and Sylvan Library, so you really have to be able to dig your way out from underneath a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void if you want to win a match after you've lost the coin flip.

5c Grim Long? They dropped ESG, and probably even SSG as well a long time ago in favor of cards that actually answer Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Meddling Mage. It stopped running ESG because it already found a way to answer it right there.

As for Stax, it seems like a hard match-up. But however, Combo isnt suppose to be naturally good against Stax, ad Stax shouldnt really be good in general because of the excess mulligans. I stopped playing Faerie Stompy and Stax because of the excess mulligans. The best way to answer Stax is using an early EtW, Shattering Spree, or bouncing it or something...



There's a difference between being impulsive with ETW and being tactical with it, I find against a lot of decks that Land, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual into ETW can be used to not win the game, but ware the opponent down, forcing him to cast his threats, dig for answers and lose track of Tendrils. Just going for Diminishing Returns into a large ETW is also better than dealing with a Tormod's Crypt etc.

I play that way too, but I dont commit entirely to the EtW. I just go EtW for 4-8, and start smashing face for the next 3 turns, and Tendrils half way with the storm of 5 or so.

[Sycik]

Doomsday.... Interesting.

Now I could see this as a 1-of in the sideboard as an additional engine. Like outsideangel said - think of it as a super tutor. If you cast it, you win. You have to be careful against control decks, but our resident bees could take care of them.

Doomsday seems to pretty much turn a hand that can't go off into a win. I'd think that you'd want to go off the turn you cast it and not give your opponent a chance to do something completely random and win. (i.e. standstill + another spell, glimpse the unthinkable, target player draw spells)

I'll test this idea myself as a 1-of in the board.

[BreathWeapon]

5c Grim Long? They dropped ESG, and probably even SSG as well a long time ago in favor of cards that actually answer Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Meddling Mage. It stopped running ESG because it already found a way to answer it right there.

As for Stax, it seems like a hard match-up. But however, Combo isnt suppose to be naturally good against Stax, ad Stax shouldnt really be good in general because of the excess mulligans. I stopped playing Faerie Stompy and Stax because of the excess mulligans. The best way to answer Stax is using an early EtW, Shattering Spree, or bouncing it or something...



I play that way too, but I dont commit entirely to the EtW. I just go EtW for 4-8, and start smashing face for the next 3 turns, and Tendrils half way with the storm of 5 or so.

Not that I'm aware of, most of the 5c Grim Tutor decks still use a Spirit Guide instead of another mana source, Cabal Ritual, not another answer to Stax.

One of the reasons I use SSG is because the metagame here is combo, aggro-control and prison, and Stax does not lose to Warrens, because it has 4 Magus of the Tabernacle, Cataclysm and our versions run 4 Living Wish for Wasteland 5-7 and Tabernacle 5-8 along with Glowrider, True Believer and Voidstone Gargoyle with Sylvan Library to make the deck consistent, it's some scary shit to see across the table for any one.

It is a metagame choice, but the card in and of itself is good with Draw 7's, and I've won games off of the 2/2 dealing two points of damage a turn while I searched for a Tendril in top deck mode against control.

@DDAY

DDAY isn't suppose to be the "Go to Threat" in this deck, it's just there in case the deck doesn't draw LED and to allow it to completely out play the opponent in the middle of the game; I've literally been beating Threshold over the head with it for about a day, you just have to be good with your stacking and you can ignore most of their hate.

It lets this deck do things it damn well shouldn't be able to do.

[outsideangel]

One of the reasons I use SSG is because the metagame here is combo, aggro-control and prison

It sounds to me like TES is a terrible deck for your field. Just sayin'. I think that a lot of your decision making could be distorted due to playing in a metagame that's clearly very unfavortable for the deck.

[BreathWeapon]

It sounds to me like TES is a terrible deck for your field. Just sayin'. I think that a lot of your decision making could be distorted due to playing in a metagame that's clearly very unfavortable for the deck.

Well, TES is the reason the field is what it is, most of us prefer T1esq decks in a T1.5 format, after we figured out we could all be prepared against combo and stomp Goblins with them.

Simian Spirit Guide isn't a distortion tho', I find it's better than a single Right of Flame most of the time; you can't fault some one for wanting to use a free on colored mana in a combo deck.

Edit: Another benefit of Simian Spirit Guide over Right of Flame is that Simian Spirit Guide is not affected from Chill, which is becoming a popular SB card in Faerie Stompy, AfFOWnity and Threshold because it deals with Goblins and doubles as another card for combo.

[Pyrokinesis]

BreathWeapon, could you please post your deck list? The merits of "winning small" versus "winning large" are hard to determine out of context.

[APriestOfGix]

so is there a point when IGG and Returns just turn into win more cards?


i have found myself twice in a tourny losing a game cause i got greedy with IGG and Warrens already in hand, and a Force on the IGG lost me the game. I thinkthey can be helpful but sometimes they are not nessary.

Point being, do we need to run them main AND side? (side over main i would think if one were to be cut)


Edit: Also DDay looks freaking crazy! I have been trying to build a DDay combo deck for over a year, and none are good, it looks like im going to be testing this a long hard time...


Also if anyone is any good at playing TES and is on MWS let me know, i need help learning the deck, as i'm quite the Strom combo noob. i only play card combo (2-3 card combo interactions). AIM: APriestOfGix

[BreathWeapon]

BreathWeapon, could you please post your deck list? The merits of "winning small" versus "winning large" are hard to determine out of context.

Sure,

MD

1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Brainstorm
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Doomsday
1 Earthquake
1 Hull Breach
1 Duress
3/4 Dark Confidant
4/3 (Open Slots, tend to be Shattering Spree or Orim's Chants)

Sometimes I use a Tomb of Urami instead of a second Undiscovered Paradise or 4th Cabal Ritual, and right now I'm testing using a Night Whispers/Sleight of Hand instead of the 4th Cabal Ritual for one of the DDAY stacks that uses LED to cast triple cantrips into a Tendrils (I wouldn't recommend it tho', it doesn't happen all that often).

[Cait_Sith]

Explain: Why 3 Empty the Warrens? I want some good quality reasons here!

Night's Whisper has anti-synergy with Plunge into Darkness. Doomsday just ups your vulnerability to Solidarity. Seriously, if you are in a situation where you want Doomsday over either Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns, there is a problem, but then again cutting the Rites often lowers your storm count.

dragon: There is one IGG main deck and one IGG wishboard. The wishboard, which occupies slots in the side board, represents cards you tutor for with wish, ensuring a higher chance of finding what you need. The reason they are in two different places with a large number of tutors to find them is so that should you need either one, they are there to help you. If you can cast EtW with Storm at 4 and are sure your opponent doesn't have a sweeper, go for it!

[Giles]

This answers alot of questions. That I have about your deck.


MD

1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Brainstorm
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Doomsday
1 Earthquake
1 Hull Breach
1 Duress
3/4 Dark Confidant
4/3 (Open Slots, tend to be Shattering Spree or Orim's Chants)


Your deck is more geared to the game one, 3-5 storm ETW first turn.

One of my favorite plays with this deck is Land->Rite #1->Rite #2->(0cc artifact)-> ETW. Or Land->0cc Artifact->Dark Ritual->ETW. I strongly think if you want to do that more often Rite is the correct pick for doing that.

Also did you give up on the Living Wish Plan?

[BreathWeapon]

This answers alot of questions. That I have about your deck.


Your deck is more geared to the game one, 3-5 storm ETW first turn.

One of my favorite plays with this deck is Land->Rite #1->Rite #2->(0cc artifact)-> ETW. Or Land->0cc Artifact->Dark Ritual->ETW. I strongly think if you want to do that more often Rite is the correct pick for doing that.

Also did you give up on the Living Wish Plan?

The moderators prohibited discussion on Living Wish, but I did manage third place in a tournament in St.Louis with a Living Wish build, being knocked out of contention thanks to prison and the coin flip. Living Wish wasn't bad, but it didn't do enough after a Diminishing Returns for me, and I live off of that card in this deck.

Right of Flame isn't better than Simian Spirit Guide in a build based around Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens; I know it seems counter intuitive, but Right of Flame, Right of Flame is just going to get the second Right of Flame countered, trading 2 for 2 and losing the turn.

With Simian Spirit Guide, the deck can just cast Dark Ritual, and at that point the opponent has to consider countering the Dark Ritual, because Simian Spirit Guide is uncounterable. If there is no counter on Dark Ritual, then the deck can cast a Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal, and at that point the opponent has to consider countering the Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal to prevent the Empty the Warrens again. If the opponent counters the Chrome Mox/Lotus, hoping to hang the Dark Ritual, but then Simian Spirit Guide can be cast and the deck picked up a free storm. If the opponent counters the Dark Ritual, then it's a 2 for 1 instead of a 2 for 2, and if the opponent Dazes the Dark Ritual, then the deck can cast Simian Spirit Guide, pick up a free storm, and then either draw out the Force of Will on the Dark Ritual, 2 for 3 and -1 land drop, or cast a Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal and cast Empty the Warrens.

I've discussed Simian Spirit Guide's role in protecting Xantid Swarm from Daze and generating free mana off of Diminishing Returns, so I will leave it at that.

@Cait Sith

Simple math, 4 Burning Wish + 3 Empty the Warrens increases the odds of drawing an Empty the Warrens in the opening hand, off of a Plunge into Darkness or off of a Diminishing Returns, and 2 Tendrils of Agony increases the deck's mulligans.

No, Night Whispers doesn't have disynergy; it draws 2 cards for 2 life, if neither of those cards were what we needed, the we removed 2 cards from the deck in order to increase the odds of drawing what we need off of Plunge into Darkness or decrease the amount of life used on a Plunge of Darkness for the same odds (I don't want to get into an argument about this, I use 1 Night Whispers in the deck instead of a Cabal Ritual for one specific reason, testing purposes involving DDAY stacks and LED)

Stating a card in the SB decreases the win percentages against High Tide is just an atrocious argument, and I'm not using the card because Simian Spirit Guide is in the deck.

Right now, I'm winning more games with DDAY than I am with Ill Gotten Gains past turn 3 at this point; being able to circumvent all of their hate with it is just insane. Just casting the DDAY and passing the turn into a stack of Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony or Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony is solid, and Xantid Swarm, Brainstorm, Right of Flame, Right of Flame, Empty the Warrens or Xantid Swarm, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony avoid most of the hate.

[Cait_Sith]

Simple math, 4 Burning Wish + 3 Empty the Warrens increases the odds of drawing an Empty the Warrens in the opening hand, off of a Plunge into Darkness or off of a Diminishing Returns, and 2 Tendrils of Agony increases the deck's mulligans.

Why are you exchanging flexibility for being able to use Empty the Warrens more often? I've only ever used in once in all my uses of TES.




No, Night Whispers doesn't have disynergy; it draws 2 cards for 2 life, if neither of those cards were what we needed, the we removed 2 cards from the deck in order to increase the odds of drawing what we need off of Plunge into Darkness or decrease the amount of life used on a Plunge of Darkness for the same odds (I don't want to get into an argument about this, I use 1 Night Whispers in the deck instead of a Cabal Ritual for one specific reason, testing purposes involving DDAY stacks and LED)


They are anti-synergistic. I'll explain. You don't gain anything for the same amount of life except for a single card for 1B. It may be more useful to you in a Doomsday pile, but Doomsday itself it sub par in this deck.



Stating a card in the SB decreases the win percentages against High Tide is just an atrocious argument, and I'm not using the card because Simian Spirit Guide is in the deck.


"The card?" Also, I was talking about its trouble with Solidarity, not High Tide decks in general, but I am sure Spring Tide would be happy for a chance to kill you right off. The problem with Doomsday is that it can easily result in your randomly losing the game. Taking your win percentage down against Solidarity even further by cutting your options anyway, misreading your opponent, or just plain creating an opportunity for error is not good. A card like Doomsday is nightmarishly bad against a random meta simply because you will randomly run into Mill decks, various weird Chalice decks, MUC, and other such nonsense for Doomsday.



Right now, I'm winning more games with DDAY than I am with Ill Gotten Gains past turn 3 at this point; being able to circumvent all of their hate with it is just insane. Just casting the DDAY and passing the turn into a stack of Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony or Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony is solid, and Xantid Swarm, Brainstorm, Right of Flame, Right of Flame, Empty the Warrens or Xantid Swarm, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony avoid most of the hate.

Enjoy.

[BreathWeapon]

None of that made sense,

Adding ETW increases the deck's options, it doesn't diminishing them, because it has higher odds of drawing an ETW and lower odds of mulliganing with a Tendrils.

I used 4 Night Whispers and 4 Plunge into Darkness in the MD before Dark Confidant was printed, and there was never a problem with it.

I love how people call cards sub-par with out ever having tested them; no one is tutoring for DDAY against an unknown opponent, that's an argument against a deck with 4 DDAY MD and not 1 DDAY SB.

[Abeyoncé]

Won't it be more useful to run 4 Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual in your current build?
Is there any specific reason to run Cabals over Rites?

And, in my opinion, running 1 ToA MD is really dangerous. It can be easily removed with Plunge or Diminishing, and if they are able to counter your Burning Wish...Ok, you can still win with ETW, but it seems very risky.
What do you think?

Btw, I really like the idea of Doomsday, another way to win avoiding hate is always interesting.

[BreathWeapon]

Won't it be more useful to run 4 Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual in your current build?
Is there any specific reason to run Cabals over Rites?

And, in my opinion, running 1 ToA MD is really dangerous. It can be easily removed with Plunge or Diminishing, and if they are able to counter your Burning Wish...Ok, you can still win with ETW, but it seems very risky.
What do you think?

Btw, I really like the idea of Doomsday, another way to win avoiding hate is always interesting.

The problem with Black Rituals and Red Rituals in the same deck is that the rituals can't chain off of each other, so splitting the rituals causes the mana to bottle neck and I can't cast Diminishing Returns as well.

One Tendrils isn't a big deal, I'm comfortable with passing the turn with 20+ Goblins with this deck.

[Abeyoncé]

But you won't be able to win always with ETW:
E.Truth, E.Plague, Pyroclasm, E.Explosives, etcetera.

Sometimes I'm worried when going for the ETW plan. I use it as a win small (so I recover easily, but often they are kill) but it still hurts if the opponent has a card listed before.
That's why I add the second ToA, to have a second kill option online, that is 100% safe.

[BreathWeapon]

But you won't be able to win always with ETW:
E.Truth, E.Plague, Pyroclasm, E.Explosives, etcetera.

Sometimes I'm worried when going for the ETW plan. I use it as a win small (so I recover easily, but often they are kill) but it still hurts if the opponent has a card listed before.
That's why I add the second ToA, to have a second kill option online, that is 100% safe.

Off of a Diminishing Returns the opponent has to draw the removal card in order to prevent the win next turn, and just casting the ETW for 6 on the first turn is going to do 6 to 12 points of damage before the opponent can answer it and bait removal for Xantid Swarm and Dark Confidant. If removal is a serious threat, just "low ball" the Warrens and keep another 5 cards or so in hand. Even if the opponent removes the Goblins, he lost a card and his turn, so TES has 5 cards, a draw, another land drop and a free turn to do something against.

Post board is all about Dark Confidant and "small ball" against aggro-control and control, just don't go all in on ETW unless you absolutely have to. ETW is safer than Tendrils, if you are losing the game after your opponent casts removal, you're probably being too aggressive with it.

[Sycik]

Unfortunately, DDay is a flubbed plan. I've tested around 100 games with it and I RARELY find a time where I'd prefer to tutor for it over IGG. Not to mention, of the approximately 5 times I did get it, I lost to a random Glimpse the Unthinkable. I'm just not that excited about the card after having tried it myself. I'd much rather have more utility in the board to wish for.

[BreathWeapon]

Unfortunately, DDay is a flubbed plan. I've tested around 100 games with it and I RARELY find a time where I'd prefer to tutor for it over IGG. Not to mention, of the approximately 5 times I did get it, I lost to a random Glimpse the Unthinkable. I'm just not that excited about the card after having tried it myself. I'd much rather have more utility in the board to wish for.

The deck lost all 5 times it tutored for DDAY against a Glimpse the Unthinkable? WTF were you playing against? And if you lost once to Glimpse the Unthinkable, why didn't you just wish for something else the other four times?

DDAY isn't the easiest card to use, but it's going to win games where other engine cards and answers can't a lot. I've used it to ignore Null Rod and Chalice of the Void out of aggro quite a bit, via just passing the turn and drawing the Brainstorm off the top of the stack.

[Sycik]

No, it lost once to a random person playing Glimpses in his deck. But that's neither here nor there, as I think you're missing the point...

Out of 100 games, I went for DDay a total of 6 times. Out of those 6 times I lost to a random GtU once and only won 4 of the other 5 times. There just weren't enough times where I'd have rather went for DDay than one of the other engines, therefore not warranting a spot in my sideboard. If you choose to play it, more power to you. It's not my cup of tea as I'd rather have other answers to pesky hate than a card that has been less than amazing.

I tested against Loam, Goblins, Thresh, a few random decks and the mirror. Half the games were played pre-board and half post-board. The DDay never really made a difference and the times that it potentially could have (permanent hate) I'd have much rather grabbed Shattering Spree or Hull Breech. DDay just isn't spectacular like I'd hoped.

[BreathWeapon]

I apologize, I missread that; the thing about DDAY is that it turns hands that can't win with Tendrils into hands that can win with Tendrils, and it turns acceleration light hands into a win. Instead of answering the opponent's hate, it can just win thru' it, and saving 5 percent of the deck's mulligans and turning the game around in the face of insurmountable hate is worth cutting a superflous SB card.

[blacklotus3636]

Someone mentioned pact of negation in page 8 and I felt like it didn`t really get any serious discussion or anything. To me pact of negation has to be compared to xantid swarm in much the same way duress was compared to xantid swarm. As I remember the pro`s and con`s went like this for duress vs. swarm:

Swarm

Pros:
1.gets around multiple disruption spells
2.doesnt cost mana the turn you go off

Cons:
1.easily killable
2.has to wait a turn to be used
3.doesnt add storm

Duress

Pros:
1.adds storm
2.works as soon as you cast it
3.is not vulnerable to creature kill

Cons:
1.has to be used the turn you combo off
2.costs B before you attempt to combo on the turn you intend to combo
3.only stops one threat

Pact of negation works much the same way duress does except for one key difference. It doesnt cost mana to play. To me the biggest drawback of duress was that you had to pay for it before you went off but now that is not an issue anymore. On top of being free it also allows you to cut green. To me pact is even better than swarm because it means that you never have to spend mana on protection whether if you need or not. I would love to hear some more discussion on pact of negation vs. swarm

I also wanted to bring up the other pacts. The green one seems like a great idea in combination with ESG or tinder wall while adding free storm. The black one seems like an excellent sideboard card for troublesome meddling mages but I don`t know about it yet. It would be nice to hear some discussion on those as well.

[Sycik]

Someone mentioned pact of negation in page 8 and I felt like it didn`t really get any serious discussion or anything. To me pact of negation has to be compared to xantid swarm in much the same way duress was compared to xantid swarm. As I remember the pro`s and con`s went like this for duress vs. swarm:

Swarm

Pros:
1.gets around multiple disruption spells
2.doesnt cost mana the turn you go off

Cons:
1.easily killable
2.has to wait a turn to be used
3.doesnt add storm

Duress

Pros:
1.adds storm
2.works as soon as you cast it
3.is not vulnerable to creature kill

Cons:
1.has to be used the turn you combo off
2.costs B before you attempt to combo on the turn you intend to combo
3.only stops one threat

Pact of negation works much the same way duress does except for one key difference. It doesnt cost mana to play. To me the biggest drawback of duress was that you had to pay for it before you went off but now that is not an issue anymore. On top of being free it also allows you to cut green. To me pact is even better than swarm because it means that you never have to spend mana on protection whether if you need or not. I would love to hear some more discussion on pact of negation vs. swarm

I also wanted to bring up the other pacts. The green one seems like a great idea in combination with ESG or tinder wall while adding free storm. The black one seems like an excellent sideboard card for troublesome meddling mages but I don`t know about it yet. It would be nice to hear some discussion on those as well.

Pact is bad in TES. REAL bad. If you don't understand why, read my prior post about it.

1) It doesn't help you when you go off because going off usually means cracking a LED which also means discarding your hand which means no Pact in hand to use.

2) It can't be used with Empty the Warrens. Period.

3) On the off chance that you do go off without popping a LED, It still loses to an opponent holding multiple disruption. Double Stifle, Multiple counterspells, Orim's Chant (oh wouldn't that be fun.... ) etc..

4) What would you cut for it? And for god's sake, do not say Xantid Swarm or I will not even take your response seriously.

[BreathWeapon]

Pact of Negation isn't a bad idea, Tendrils just has to be redesigned in order to use Pact of Negation to its advantage.

Just for testing purposes, use the list I posted, replacing Xantid Swarm with Pact of Negation, 2 Empty the Warrens with 2 Tendrils of Agony and Plunge into Darkness with Spoils of the Vault and concentrate on using Burning Wish to tutor for Diminishing Returns and hard cast it against aggro-control.

That's going to fail, because that's where I started with it, but it should segway you into building another combo deck using Pact of Negation.

[Belgareth]

Pact of Negation isn't a bad idea, Tendrils just has to be redesigned in order to use Pact of Negation to its advantage.

When you have to redesign your deck to fit a situational counter into it, then you know your not doing very well.
TES is a good deck without changing to fit a bad card into it.

[BreathWeapon]

When you have to redesign your deck to fit a situational counter into it, then you know your not doing very well.
TES is a good deck without changing to fit a bad card into it.

RTFP,

I'm not suggesting TES be redesigned to use Pact of Negation, but rather testing Pact of Negation in TES to understand the reason it doesn't work and then designing another Tendrils deck to use it after those lessons are learned.

It's not hard to build a Tendrils deck around Pact of Negation, it just requires some critical thinking.

[blacklotus3636]

First off swarm doesn`t really protect ETW any better than pact can because ETW isn`t really any good after turn 1. You can use it after turn 1 but by then its just a slower tendrils of agony.
The multiple disruption argument doesn`t hold any water either. If my opponent has double stifle then they can stifle swarms ability and screw you over with the second stifle. If my opponent has double counterspell then why wouldn`t they counter swarm? Chances are if they have two counters or more in the first few turns then they most likely had it when swarm was played in the first place. Also, I have heard time and time again that this deck usually goes off turns 2-3 which means two pieces of disruption are probably the most you will encounter if you are going off on time. Not to mention that any removal spell in the format can get rid of swarm easily i.e STP etc. The only really strong point I heard for keeping swarm over pact is that you use LED when going off. This makes sense and it could be a big enough issue to not include pact but you must concede that a 0cc counterspell is something that should at the very least be looked into.

I also wanted to talk a little about pact of summoning. I know many people are wary of changing the deck to try new things but could we at least try tinder wall and/or spirit guide? It seems to me that if you played pact of summoning to get spirit guide it would be like getting the storm for ESG and if we used both then we could pact twice and get 2 free red mana. I know this would mean major retooling to the deck or maybe even a new deck but it may be for the better. I just don`t want to say something doesn`t work without trying it

[Bryant Cook]

Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I've been playing MD Orim's Chants for about a month. I've never been so satisfied with a protection spell other than Xantid. I've been playing 2 over a Plunge into Darkness and a Cabal Ritual, yes that's right, six maindeck protection spells. Ever since I've done this my aggro control match-up and control match-ups have greatly improved, along with the combo mirror.

Orim's Chant is everything that Pact of Negation want's to be but has better synergy with the deck and improves problematic match-ups. Now if you'd like to go back to your conversation feel free but I'd appreciate it if you'd all test the great change that I made to the deck. A few of you figured out the change weeks after mine on your own such as Outside Angel. I'd like to hear responses.

[Zach Tartell]

Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I've been playing MD Orim's Chants for about a month.

Have you been drinking? If I weren't so lazy, I'd go through the thread and dig up your post where lamented that somebody leaked it and admitted to playing them.

Also, having these changes the boarding plan a bit, I'd reckon. What do you cut for the two in the board when goign into a control matchup?

[Citrus-God]

Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I've been playing MD Orim's Chants for about a month. I've never been so satisfied with a protection spell other than Xantid. I've been playing 2 over a Plunge into Darkness and a Cabal Ritual, yes that's right, six maindeck protection spells. Ever since I've done this my aggro control match-up and control match-ups have greatly improved, along with the combo mirror.

Orim's Chant is everything that Pact of Negation want's to be but has better synergy with the deck and improves problematic match-ups. Now if you'd like to go back to your conversation feel free but I'd appreciate it if you'd all test the great change that I made to the deck. A few of you figured out the change weeks after mine on your own such as Outside Angel. I'd like to hear responses.


I've been playing two Chants in the Maindeck as well. I really want to squeeze a 3rd copy in the Maindeck. I suppose two works well enough though.

I think it's one of the best disruption spells we have today. I really want to see this card getting their way into more TES builds.

[BreathWeapon]

Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I've been playing MD Orim's Chants for about a month. I've never been so satisfied with a protection spell other than Xantid. I've been playing 2 over a Plunge into Darkness and a Cabal Ritual, yes that's right, six maindeck protection spells. Ever since I've done this my aggro control match-up and control match-ups have greatly improved, along with the combo mirror.

Orim's Chant is everything that Pact of Negation want's to be but has better synergy with the deck and improves problematic match-ups. Now if you'd like to go back to your conversation feel free but I'd appreciate it if you'd all test the great change that I made to the deck. A few of you figured out the change weeks after mine on your own such as Outside Angel. I'd like to hear responses.

I came to a similar conclusion after the last thread, and I adapted Nightshade81's suggestions to NQL; it's still in testing, but I'm at the point where I believe that Orim's Chant > Xantid Swarm, Mystical Tutor > Plunge into Darkness and SB Force of Will > Shattering Spree.

It isn't TES, but it's 99% of what I learned from TES, so I'm starting another thread for it.

[outsideangel]

Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I've been playing MD Orim's Chants for about a month. I've never been so satisfied with a protection spell other than Xantid. I've been playing 2 over a Plunge into Darkness and a Cabal Ritual, yes that's right, six maindeck protection spells. Ever since I've done this my aggro control match-up and control match-ups have greatly improved, along with the combo mirror.

Orim's Chant is everything that Pact of Negation want's to be but has better synergy with the deck and improves problematic match-ups. Now if you'd like to go back to your conversation feel free but I'd appreciate it if you'd all test the great change that I made to the deck. A few of you figured out the change weeks after mine on your own such as Outside Angel. I'd like to hear responses.

Curse you Bryant, and your psychically stealing my tech. (or maybe I psychically stole your tech!) I actually testing a lot with Orim's Chant when the deck was first posted waaay back when. I never actually took them to a tournament, but that was only because I don't own any. :( At one point I was actually testing all four Chants and zero Swarms. It was going to be my secret tech for Colombus, too.

Anyway, Chant is real freakin' good, for a variety of reasons. First, it's not vulnerable to StP or Bolt or whatever, so a lot of times it can actually be better against Gro. Also, the deck just sometimes wants more protection (like in the aforementioned Gro matchup) than 4 Swarm can provide, and unlike Duress, Chant is actually good with IGG. It also makes your combo mirror slightly better, since you actually have some relevant disruption against decks like Belcher and IGGY. Finally, it can be not-as-useless as Swarm is vs. aggro and black disruption decks, since it effectively buys you a free turn, which I like a lot.

Personally, I've really liked a 3-2 split on Swarm-Chant, though I'm probably also going to up it to either 4-2 or 3-3, probably cutting a Plunge for one.

[APriestOfGix]

wow, i have been Chanting ever since i saw this deck too...

Chant is amazing in the deck, and i'm trying to find room for 3, maybe cutting a swarm?

the point is, drawing a xantid off a returns < drawing a chant.

also chant is a 1 mana storm spell, so thats also pretty good...


Chant is very good, and i think a 3/3 split is better than a 4/2 split, but i have the 4 swarm, and the $$$ of chants is keeping it 4/2 for now...

[kicks_422]

I like the inclusiion of Chant... I like it so much that I've cut the Cabal Rituals completely and the Tomb of Urami to fit in a full set of them.

I find them really useful, not just to protect the turn that you combo off, but also to protect Goblin tokens from a Pyroclasm/Plague for a turn or to pseudo-Time Walk... I personally love casting it after an opponent casts Dark Ritual. :tongue:

[Bryant Cook]

I just posted my current decklist on my first post of the thread (2nd post) and you'll see 3 chants MD. I've decided it shares the same role as ETW against control and Chant doesn't lose to Pyroclasm or EE. It also stops Pyroclasm and EE from occuring. You'll also notice the SB Tranquility gone, I've decided two additional Shattering Sprees are more important because of Chalice of the Void's risein popularity.


One last ting, in the opening post by Mr. Nightmare there are new links, check them out!

[blacklotus3636]

I have to admit that orim`s chant would be pretty good in here in just about every match you can think of but in another way it seems kind of scary. Orims chant, if used effectively can wreck TES worse than a chalice or even trinisphere. How effective orims chant is depends on how good the thresh player is(or whatever deck is playing it). If they play it too early then TES may have time to recover and if they do it too late then they could die.

[APriestOfGix]

how does playing to to late, NOT kill off tes?


they can't ramp up to 10 get chanted and Tendrils ir.


so what can they do to a late game chant? NOTHING, although the 4/6/7 protection spells put a cramp in most plans to chant late comboing...

[kicks_422]

@wastedlife:

What's you reason for keeping 2 Cabal Rituals in? Since I've cut them, I've never missed them. Also, why go back down to only 1 EtW MD?

[ReAnimated]

So......Now with Hulk Flash becoming popular how will TES deal with them? Win at instant speed protected by 8 counters......seems very hard, anyone have any idea?

[Sycik]

So......Now with Hulk Flash becoming popular how will TES deal with them? Win at instant speed protected by 8 counters......seems very hard, anyone have any idea?

I'm looking at this question from 2 different perspectives.

1) For GP Columbus

2) After GP Columbus

And here are my answers to each.

1) We don't have to. For Hulk Flash to be good, it requires 2 cards from Future Sight which isn't even legal until after GP Columbus.

2) Did you hear that we're playing Orim's Chant MD now? =P As with any matchup, it will come down to this skill of the TES pilot.

[ReAnimated]

Yeah i read about the chants (sigh another 60 dollars outta my pocket) but, is that enough?

[BreathWeapon]

You can SB Leyline of the Void if it's a serious issue, or SB in Force of Will if you completely overhaul the MD.

[ReAnimated]

@wastedlife why do u put one orim's chant in the side.......u cant grab it with B.Wish and does it really matter if u side in 1 more , i think we should but something MD for it as it is vital for u to go off agianst stuff like solidarity , thresh , and can stop hulk for a turn.

[Citrus-God]

@wastedlife why do u put one orim's chant in the side.......u cant grab it with B.Wish and does it really matter if u side in 1 more , i think we should but something MD for it as it is vital for u to go off agianst stuff like solidarity , thresh , and can stop hulk for a turn.


Wait... it does matter if you Maindeck the 4th one. Believe me, in a deck of 60m the 60th card counts. You do run 60 cards over 61 cards for a reason right? Same goes for slots, siding something out merely gives the deck an edge in the place of something else.

[APriestOfGix]

yes, 60 cards is run for a reason, and infact im not even running the last chant in the board, as i like the doomsday better.

hulk flash is going to be banned soon, so im not worried about that...

[BreathWeapon]

People should shelve TES for the GP, with all of the cards going into people's SB for Hulk Flash, like Leyline of the Void and Trickbind, and the fact that Hulk Flash is superior to TES, it's going to be one hell of an uphill battle for Storm combo.

[APriestOfGix]

how about shelve ALL legacy decks untill after June 1st...


thats what i'm doing...

[Sycik]

People should shelve TES for the GP, with all of the cards going into people's SB for Hulk Flash, like Leyline of the Void and Trickbind, and the fact that Hulk Flash is superior to TES, it's going to be one hell of an uphill battle for Storm combo.

You're nuts.... TES just gets better. We've added Orim's Chant for a reason, right? Well, last I checked, Orim's Chant or Xantid Swarm > Trickbind. Why do I care if Goblins is going Rb to splash Trickbind and Stifle? Good for them, it just makes our job easier.

Do yourself a favor and do what I am doing, if running TES. MD 4x Leyline of the Void. Yes, seriously. Our clock is fast enough that it ruins Hulk Flash, it destroys Thresh as most have no maindeck hate for it, Hurts Iggy Pop, Eliminates Loam, and you get a bye against Rock... you see the point. LotV doesn't just help against Flash so it isn't as dead of a card as alot of people seem to think it is.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Pre-FS we don't truly have to worry alot about Flash. Post-FS, let's just hope it's banned in some way.

EDIT: Not to mention that it isn't very difficult to hardcast LotV if needed against those decks also, although that shouldn't need to happen very often.

[BreathWeapon]

The problem tho' is that Flash has Force of Will, Misdirection, Daze, Duress, Orim's Chant and perhaps Muddle the Mixture etc. and that not MDing actual disruption against them just gives them the time to prevent TES from comboing and remove the LV.

The compact versions of Flash can have up to 16 disruption cards, and that's just insane in the combo mirror. You'd need at least 4 Duress and 4 LV MD to stand a chance, and Orim's Chant isn't good against the non-Storm combo mirror and getting them Misdirected is GG.

Flash is even worse post FS, because it's faster than TES, but pre FS, it's still an appr. turn 2 to 3 combo deck with three to four times the disruption, counting Merchant Scroll for Force of Will, and it can SB in Leyline of the Void and Trickbind etc. for the combo mirror.

Flash is inevitable, TES is not, and I've seen Flash just assume the control role and bend TES over the table. I also fail to see how people SBing in more combo hate is good for TES, that just seems to be a logical quagmire.

[APriestOfGix]

Orim's Chant is just plain bad for us.


i did some thinking, and if we get chanted at 9 spells, thats game right there, as we can do nothing inresponce.


meaning if you think your opponit is playing chants, you better have a swarm attack, cause even a chant at 5 spells is only going to get chanted back, and your still screwed, although not as much since you can USUALLY recover faster from only losing 5 cards over losing 9.


Also at Flash Hulk, at the GP it's not going to do anything, it will take 1-3 top 8 spots, but it's not going to be the 6 top 8 deck the Post-FS is.


I think no special hate is needed for it, as chants seem to be working really well, and hell chants are doing good against the Post-FS version, since you chant inresponce to a summoners, and thats GG.


The one thing i do think is pulling confidants for Leyline in the board. Main deck is nice, but since Hulk Flash isn't THAT good yet (still insain but not TOTALLY broken) it's not going to be played by enough of the field to warrent main decking the Leylines, an hurting our ability to combo.


I have been watching the Hulk Flash thread, and from the looks of it, not many are going to bother playing it at the GP. Thats not to say their isn't going to be a strong showing, just that there is not going to be 60% HF, 40% other, only MAYBE 5-10% Hulk Flash, and i don't want to damage my ability to combo against 90-95% of the field to have a better match up against 5-10%.

[kabal]

I have been watching the Hulk Flash thread, and from the looks of it, not many are going to bother playing it at the GP. Thats not to say their isn't going to be a strong showing, just that there is not going to be 60% HF, 40% other, only MAYBE 5-10% Hulk Flash, and i don't want to damage my ability to combo against 90-95% of the field to have a better match up against 5-10%.

Granted this may mean nothing, but every store that had 50+ Flash(es) before the craze is now sold out or upped the price to some outrageous amount. Fair statement to say that people are going to bring this deck to the GP

See below:

SCG (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=10576)
Smedlock (http://smedlock.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MIR111N&Category_Code=)
Troll and Toad (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p82737.html)
ABU games (http://www.abugames.com/shop.cgi?command=showdetails&itemid=146628&invid=260645)
MTG Fanatic (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Store/Magic/ViewCard.aspx?I=MTG-MS-021111)
Cool Stuff inc (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/main_viewCard.php?Card_Name=Flash&viewtype=Magic%20the%20Gathering%20Cards#Flash)

At one point, this deck was extremely cheap to build. Being that it is cheap and combo that can win turn 0-1, it will appeal to allot of the pros and noobs alike that are planning on going. I won't count it out, but expect that half of the field will be made up of Goblins and Hulk Flash

[Sycik]

Granted this may mean nothing, but every store that had 50+ Flash(es) before the craze is now sold out or upped the price to some outrageous amount. Fair statement to say that people are going to bring this deck to the GP

See below:

SCG (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=10576)
Smedlock (http://smedlock.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MIR111N&Category_Code=)
Troll and Toad (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p82737.html)
ABU games (http://www.abugames.com/shop.cgi?command=showdetails&itemid=146628&invid=260645)
MTG Fanatic (http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Store/Magic/ViewCard.aspx?I=MTG-MS-021111)
Cool Stuff inc (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/main_viewCard.php?Card_Name=Flash&viewtype=Magic%20the%20Gathering%20Cards#Flash)

At one point, this deck was extremely cheap to build. Being that it is cheap and combo that can win turn 0-1, it will appeal to allot of the pros and noobs alike that are planning on going. I won't count it out, but expect that half of the field will be made up of Goblins and Hulk Flash

/nod

I completely agree with kabal.

At least 6 of the people at my local shop are taking Hulk. The rest are preparing against it.

As of right now, I'm still planning to run 4x LotV maindecked in place of the 3 cabal rituals and 1 Plunge. I may change my mind, but I doubt it.

[BreathWeapon]

Not that it is relevant for the GP, but Chanting after the Summoner's Pact isn't going to work, because the opponent will just cast Flash during his next Upkeep with the Disciple version before the Upkeep cost goes on the stack.

[Sycik]

Chanting against the disciple build is an exercise in futility because they can simply combo out in response to the Chant.

[APriestOfGix]

this is ALSO assuming they arn't running the disiple version and need an attack step...


i know i know, a lot of if's...


also at Doomsday, can you please put a few stacks up, i can't seem to see how to use this period much less with...

Null Rod

Mage

True Believer

Chalice for 0

Chalice for 1

Chalice for 2

Pyrostatic Pillar

[blacklotus3636]

Someone else already hit on it a little bit but chanting in response to a pact is not GG at all. TES is running 4 xantid swarm, as many as 4 orims chant and lets just say 4 leyline of the void maindeck. Xantid swarm is too slow to matter against Flash unless you get chant or a leyline early and even if you do get lethal storm on the stack or swing with swarm they can still go off in response. Thats not even counting whether or not they have countermagic which is all free. Add on the fact that it is only possible for you to play a maximum of 2 chants(and thats only if you have 2 in your hand) before Flash goes off and chances are that they will have enough resources to counter your meager defense and that means GG. Flash has more speed than TES, can kill at instant speed like Solidarity and runs about as many counters as a control deck like Landstill. Sorry to say this but Flash is superior to any other combo deck right now and with all the hate people are packing for combo you would be stupid to play any combo deck other than Flash.

[BreathWeapon]

You're going to need a long term solution to Flash, because it's going to be in this format for awhile.

Back on topic, all of the DDAY stacks are a couple of pages back, and just remember that the most common ones involve passing the turn and drawing a Brainstorm off the top of the deck for stuff like, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains and Tendrils of Agony, recasting the Brainstorm to draw into the Tendrils of Agony or the straight Tendrils kill with a Brainstorm in hand for a chain of Brainstorms like Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony etc.

[Sycik]

Has anyone played TES in a recent tourney? I'm curious to see how it's done against a field of Flash and how well it did considering the splash damage from Flash hate.

[CalebD]

Not that it is relevant for the GP, but Chanting after the Summoner's Pact isn't going to work, because the opponent will just cast Flash during his next Upkeep with the Disciple version before the Upkeep cost goes on the stack.

Unless they used ESG or a petal to cast the flash. If they don't have the mana during their upkeep then they're fecked. I wouldn't even mention this if the T1's with the pact version weren't so common, and the mana base so tight (some lists running 4 ESG and 4 Lotus Petals.)

[andrew77]

I think we should make a few changes to the deck so that in can cope better in the metagame at the gp. I definatley want to add defence grid to the board again and I want to change the maindeck chants. They usually slow me down too much, especially when facing flash

[ReAnimated]

Ummm........so whats better slowing down and win without the concern of a counter or scoop to a Force and possible Daze.

[Bryant Cook]

I personally tried my ass off to get a Hulk Flash matchup that was 50/50, MD Duress, SB therapy and RED and more. It's dissapointing when you have to shelve your own deck for a gp to play a hate deck. Good Luck to all playing TES, I hope you top 8.

[matelml]

I think TES might have an okay (+-35/65)( this is maybe not really OK but that means you alteast have a chance) matchup with hulk flash if it uses the iggy pop trick: 4 maindeck leyline and 3 maindeck IGG, the leyline hurts hulk flash and will probably give you enough time to do something if they don't have a lot of counters or you have swarm and an early leyline + IGG against most decks buys you enough time to win. I believe tendrils combo could be one of the best flash hate decks because with IGG maindeck leyline is not as dead against other decks.

[Bryant Cook]

I ended up going 6-3 beating 3 fish esq. decks, Goblins, W-Stax and Deadguy losing to Gro round 3, Flash round 7, and round 9 to the luckiest game 3 topdeck for fish.

[andrew77]

I'm glad to hear you still played TES. Anyway at least the GP had a good turnout so odds are we will have another legacy GP. Hopefully flash will be banned and the format will be restored. Anyway, what did your list look like? Did you run md duress? I played in a local legacy tourny yesterday with 4 md duress instead of chants and i went 4-0 beating 2 flash decks. Oh, I also ran 1 cabal therapy in the board. It was really nice to wish for it after a turn one duress.

[matelml]

Hey I have a question for all of you:

How would you play this hand on the play against an unkown deck? city,tomb of urami,infernal tutor,lotus petal,dark ritual,LED,empty the warrens, with another empty the warrens in the deck.

I would go for 18 goblins BTW. What it comes down to is: how afraid are you of FoW, duress, etc.

[emidln]

Hey I have a question for all of you:

How would you play this hand on the play against an unkown deck? city,tomb of urami,infernal tuter,lotus petal,dark ritual,LED,empty the warrens, with another empty the warrens in the deck.

I would go for 18 goblins BTW. What it comes down to is: how afraid are you of FoW, duress, etc.

I'd get Diminishing Returns from the first IT (leaving City of Brass untapped in play before I cast IT) and attempt to win turn 1.

[Nightmare]

Turn 1: City, LED, Ritual, Petal, Empty the Warrens.
Turn 2: Swing, Urami, EOT make a giant Demon.
Turn 3: Win.

[matelml]

I think diminishing returns is too much of a risk when you have such a solid hand that can do without it, and the urami plan, after reconsidering it seems the best because more people run FoW than MD pyroclasm/engeneered explosives.

[andrew77]

I think diminishing returns is too much of a risk when you have such a solid hand that can do without it, and the urami plan, after reconsidering it seems the best because more people run FoW than MD pyroclasm/engeneered explosives.

The goblin/urami plan is also just as fast as 18 goblins. risking a game loss to a fow just to get 18 goblins seems like a weak play. I'd rather risk it going for d-returns, but its unlikely you would win off a d-returns in that scenario so going for 8 goblins thena tomb seems like the best option.

[Bryant Cook]

Now that Flash is gone might as well post my updates.

Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tomb of Urami

Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm

Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Plunge into Darkness
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Rite of Flame
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
2 Orim's Chant

Sideboard
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Earthquake
SB: 1 Duress

There's a few small changes which make a big difference on the deck. Lately I've been playing the deck more conservatively, as you’ll notice with three main deck Duress. Duress was added in because of the up rise in stifles in the metagame, a few of these slots we’re Orim’s Chants but were cut because of Chrome Mox. While Duress is weaker vs. control than Orim’s Chant its better vs. hate decks.

The next big change is three main Empty the Warrens, I know, I know I’ve always been an advocate against it. However, it was changed because of synergy with Cabal Therapy (another change) in the sideboard. Allowing the deck to play more conservatively and a lot more control like. Between postboard 4 Xantid 4 Therapy 3 Duress and 2 Orim’s Chant you should man handle Control/Hate decks allowing an over better percentage against the whole field.

Also, I’m going to end with a few questions.
Where do people see TES going in the near future now that Flash is gone? Will it raise to the top or fall? Any new cards?

[Hummingbird TG]

Shouldn't the meta return to normal now that Flash is gone? Wouldn't that mean TES can rise to the top again?

[Awesomator]

The new list looks like it will do fine against Fish. Fish might stay pretty popular now, not your preferred matchup. Hopefully for TES players people will go back to Goblins. TES has so much versatility that you can build it to handle just about any meta. If we go basically back to the same meta then TES will do very well again.

[Skullclamping]

I always have problem siding and... What comes out for Therapies? The other problem is that I never find the match to make Confidant come in...

Also... Wouldn't it be better to go with 2 Tendrils + 2 EtW? As the therapies are in side and with a pair of EtW it can be enough.

[b4r0n]

I always have problem siding and... What comes out for Therapies? The other problem is that I never find the match to make Confidant come in...

I generally board out Xantids for Confidants in matches where Xantid is pretty useless... like against most decks that don't run blue. I'd imagine that the plan is similar for Therapies; they would probably replace Chants against decks without blue.

Confidants also come in against Thresh, over Plunge into Darkness. Or at least, that's what I do. I don't know exactly how wastedlife sideboards with the new list.


Also... Wouldn't it be better to go with 2 Tendrils + 2 EtW?

I'm curious about this too. Perhaps it's because you'd rather draw into EtW and tutor for Tendrils if it's needed? Or maybe because running 9 cards that don't tutor or produce mana (Xantid, Duress, Chant) makes it harder to reach 10 storm, so EtW is a more practical kill?

The new list seems to represent a major shift in the deck's philosophy, moving away from the early kills in favor of having more protection. How useful is Empty the Warrens if it's not being cast turn 1? With this slower build, what distinguishes it from the recent IGGy Pop lists that splash red for EtW?

[Awesomator]

ETW doesn't need an overly large storm count to win. If you're winning with Tendrils, chances are you're using IGG + Infernal. ETW is very good against TES' bad matchups because IGG can be countered early on in the combo.

[Bryant Cook]

I generally board out Xantids for Confidants in matches where Xantid is pretty useless... like against most decks that don't run blue. I'd imagine that the plan is similar for Therapies; they would probably replace Chants against decks without blue.

Confidants also come in against Thresh, over Plunge into Darkness. Or at least, that's what I do. I don't know exactly how wastedlife sideboards with the new list.



I'm curious about this too. Perhaps it's because you'd rather draw into EtW and tutor for Tendrils if it's needed? Or maybe because running 9 cards that don't tutor or produce mana (Xantid, Duress, Chant) makes it harder to reach 10 storm, so EtW is a more practical kill?

The new list seems to represent a major shift in the deck's philosophy, moving away from the early kills in favor of having more protection. How useful is Empty the Warrens if it's not being cast turn 1? With this slower build, what distinguishes it from the recent IGGy Pop lists that splash red for EtW?

My sideboarding plans are pretty much what you said. The deck still has alot of early kills, the only real difference between earlier lists and the current one is +1 ETW, -1 Tendrils and -4 Cabal Ritual + 4 Protection. To be honest Cabal Ritual never really helped out all that much, it was +1 mana and +1 storm. You rarely found threshold. Having better protection vs. Fish and control is huge, which has been increasing in my local metagame. I don't believe the list is slower at all really Cabal Ritual hardly ever made a turn 2 hand a turn 1 hand or a hand that needed to win faster do so.

[Citrus-God]

I love the list. But I must say it's sad to see only 2 Chants in the whole deck. Then again, you already have Duress.

Now that I think about it, Duress is awesome in that deck. It

Takes out removal against Control so Xantid Swarm can be a bomb, snatches counters, snatches other bombs, snatches ways to find bombs/control, and protects Confidants Post-Board.

Only changes I'd make is cutting a Therapy from the board for a 4th Confidant.

[APriestOfGix]

i like the list.

i think we need to find room for the 4th confidant in the board, and i would LIKE to run 1 more spree, if we could...

[revenge_inc]

Call me stupid, but I don't see how the Dark Confidants fit into the strategy of the deck. Doesn't Night's Whisper work much better with this deck's gameplan? You get the cards more quickly and how much does the 2/1 body matter?

People say they board out the Xantids for Confidants in matches where the Xantids don't matter, such as aggro. Isn't that the best matchup for the deck anyways?

Someone please point out the obvious thing I'm missing or make a case as to why they aren't sub-obtimal sideboard filler.

[Citrus-God]

Call me stupid, but I don't see how the Dark Confidants fit into the strategy of the deck. Doesn't Night's Whisper work much better with this deck's gameplan? You get the cards more quickly and how much does the 2/1 body matter?

Against decks with no creatures, every attack step is a Tendrils of Agony copy.

Night's Whisper gives you s 2 for 1 advantage. Confidant gives you a constant advantage.

Against decks with counter magic, winning small helps you slowly leverage this MU in your favor. While your at it, you draw into Duress, Chants, and Swarms to keep your opponent from winning and protecting your combo, while you also draw into Ritual effects, bombs, and ways to find bombs.


People say they board out the Xantids for Confidants in matches where the Xantids don't matter, such as aggro. Isn't that the best matchup for the deck anyways?

I dont see how pitching Green to Chrome Mox makes your goldfish faster.

[revenge_inc]

Against decks with no creatures, every attack step is a Tendrils of Agony copy.

How much does this really matter? If it doesn't, why not play Sylvan Library (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=2240)? Does it not let you draw more cards a turn than Dark Confidant?

A few other questions:

How good is Serum Powder? Street Wraith?

[Citrus-God]

How much does this really matter? If it doesn't, why not play Sylvan Library (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=2240)? Does it not let you draw more cards a turn than Dark Confidant?[/quite]


When you're still in a position to WIN SMALL, I think you'd rather pat 1-2 average per card than 3 life per card + Draw step. When you're using Sylvan Library, I doubt Sylvan Library can offer the card advantage Dark Confidant can provide.

Let's look at the 60 cards in the deck now

22 0cc cards.
21 1cc cards.
11 2cc cards.
6 4cc cards.

Now with Library, it's

3-6, 3-6, 3-6, 3-6, 3-6. Now with Dark Confidant, it's an average to 0-2 per turn. You see more cards as the game goes on.



[quote]How good is Serum Powder? Street Wraith?


Serum Powder probably wont work for this deck since you're going to draw dead with your Draw 7 even more, unless you'd rather remove a disruption piece of Serum Powder.

Street Warith sucks. I know it's been doing somewhat well in Vintage, but this deck is more mulligan than Long variants in Vintage. This deck doesnt have that many Game turning bombs like in Vintage, only ways to find those Game turning bombs. Because we run more Tutors, that means we need more mana to actually find those Bombs with Tutors. If we're to run Wraith, it might screw up the mulling decisions when you need mana or a tutor.

[BreathWeapon]

I think Simian Spirit Guide is a lot better than Right of Flame with 3 ETW, because it turns Dark Ritual into a must counter threat on the first turn, and Dark Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide don't fight over the same lands/acceleration to cast both of them like Dark Ritual and Right of Flame do. Right of Flame into Right of Flame is win more, because Dark Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide result in the same amount of mana, and the opponent can't Force of Will the second Right of Flame and retain card parody as opposed to Force of Willing the Dark Ritual and losing card advantage.

I'm glad Cabal Ritual is gone, because Cabal Ritual was never good enough to be in the deck to begin with, and 8 disruption cards means that the deck is more consistent. Even with out Cabal Ritual and Right of Flame, ETW still averages 3 to 4 storm, and all Cabal Ritual ever did was let control Force of Will it after Dark Ritual like Right of Flame into Right of Flame.

Are you still winning more game with Ill Gotten Gains than Diminishing Returns with Duress and 3 ETW? It seems as if you're almost exactly where I was three months ago, with the exception of Right of Flame over Simian Spirit Guide and another disruption card over Cabal Ritual (which I ended up cutting for Street Wraith). Speaking of another disruption card, I think that MDing Cabal Therapy over Xantid Swarm and Orim's Chant should be a serious consideration, because it could cause people to SB out their spot removal and let you SB in Xantid Swarm and Dark Confidant with out interruption. You also get to Cabal Therapy for Meddling Mage, where Duress discarding Force of Will and Cabal Therapy discarding Meddling Mage is brutal on the play.

This is where I'm at with 5c Tendrils post FS,

MD

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
3 DIMINISHING RETURNS
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 MYSTICAL TUTOR
4 Brainstorm
4 STREET WRAITH
3 Duress
1 ORIM'S CHANT
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 FORBIDDEN ORCHARD
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 SIMIAN SPIRIT GUIDE

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 INFERNAL CONTRACT
1 Hullbreach
1 Rough/Tumble

And then either

4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm

or

4 Force of Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Duress
+2 Empty the Warrens

or

4 Force of Will
3 Orim's Chant
1 Echoing Truth

All of the major changes are in bold, first, 3 Diminishing Returns are insane, as long as Simian Spirit Guide is producing 0 for R and not conflicting with Dark Ritual, casting Diminishing Returns is easy and just as good as Burning Wish with Lion's Eye Diamond. You're basically chaining into Diminishing Returns by floating blue mana off of Lion's Eye Diamond or casting a 5+ storm Empty the Warrens by floating red mana, and Mystical Tutor and Street Wraith turn into a full fledged tutor for your kill condition.

Now that you are playing a 56 card deck and 2 more Diminishing Returns, your top decks are significantly more consistent, and you can Infernal Tutor for multiple Diminishing Returns and break thru' an opponent's counter wall. Street Wraith and Mystical are an insane combo, because it either enables tutoring for Tendrils or Warrens after a Diminishing Returns or it turns Mystical Tutor into a pseudo Burning Wish with Mystical Tutor for Diminishing Returns/Empty the Warrens, cycle and sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond in response. You'll also get hands where you have Brainstorm, Street Wraith and Lion's Eye Diamond where you can put your Diminishing Returns two cards down and then cycle/LED into it to cast it.

Street Wraith and Mystical Tutor are perfectly fine on their own, just think of Street Wraith as a Cabal Ritual, and you'll see that you would have never kept any hand just because it had Cabal Ritual in it. Mystical Tutor I really like, because Mystical Tutor will always find you the business card you want, and considering Dark Ritual is B for BBB, it's really like tutoring for 2 accelerants in one compared to other accelerants, and considering Orim's Chant baits a Force of Will, you aren't really losing card advantage.

Mystical Tutor is also the stone cold nuts against discard, it's so much easier to win against suicide when you have Mystical Tutor instead of Plunge into Darkness. I also think it's easier to win against aggro-control, because you aren't damaging yourself, and you can Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony and then Mystical Tutor for the other Tendrils of Agony, which makes the two Tendrils plan more consistent, or Mystical Tutor can tutor for Orim's Chant and you can protect it with Duress to instantly win the game.

I also like the fact that you can Brainstorm off of a land and then Mystical Tutor on your upkeep off of the same land to shuffle the two bad cards back into the deck and then draw exactly what you want.

Forbidden Orchard over Undiscovered Paradise may not seem like a big deal, but Undiscovered Paradise is fucking awful in a deck based around Diminishing Returns. Yes, losing Goblin tokens and moating Dark Confidants sucks, but the whole returning a land to your hand thing is just unconditionally horrible.

The SB is rather self explanatory,

I use the same 7 wish targets, but sometimes I cut the Duress for the Infernal Contract, because I think Burning Wish for Duress is a fundamentally awful play unless you're mana light. By the time you can Burning Wish, your opponent is going to at least consider countering it just to keep you off of Empty the Warrens, and if he doesn't, you should be able to bait the counter with Infernal Contract on your next turn. You usually can't Burning Wish and Duress on the same turn with out losing an accelerant to do it, so you're probably passing the turn any way, and if your passing the turn any way, your better off casting the Infernal Contract if you have the mana and either baiting the Force of Will, gaining card advantage, or resolving the Infernal Contract if he doesn't have a counter. I also think that having a BBB target in the SB is just really useful in and of itself, because it has saved my ass countless time when I couldn't pay UU for Diminishing Returns or 4c for Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens.

The first SB is 4 Dark Confidant and 4 Xantid Swarm for the man plan if the aggro-control or control opponent SBs out his removal, because then you can SB in your creatures for Street Wraith and Mystical Tutor and punish him for it. The second SB 4 Force of Will, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Duress and +2 Empty the Warrens for a general metagame, where Force of Will prevents the opponent from resolving permanent based hate against you when you are on the draw, Echoing Truth gives you 4 more outs to resolved hate and the Duress lets you Burning Wish for Duress and then Infernal Tutor for a second Duress to break thru' a counter wall. I usually SB in the 2 extra Empty the Warrens for the Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains against aggro-control and control, because Diminishing Returns into Empty the Warrens is more consistent, drawing Tendrils of Agony or Ill Gotten Gains is terrible, you'll probably remove either the Tendrils of Agony or the Ill Gotten Gains after a Diminishing Returns or two any way, your not as likely to remove all of your kill conditions with 3 kill conditions instead of two and have to rely on Burning Wish and you can still kill the opponent with Tendrils of Agony thru' a Diminishing Returns and Burning Wish. You can also cut 2xDiminishing Returns for them, but then your fundamentally reverting the deck back into TES with a different tutor/disruption package. There's nothing wrong with that I guess, but I think it's cutting down on your threat density tremendously. The third SB is the "protect the Chant" plan from TimDeluxeIt's version of IGGY POP, and altho' I really don't like Orim's Chant's W casting cost in conjunction with Diminishing Returns, it's pretty cool to be able to steal the control roll from aggro-control and dominate them on the stack.

This deck is so fundamentally different from TES that I don't think you can really call it TES any more, but considering TES was the progenitor of this deck, I don't really care either way. Instead of casting Xantid Swarm, Plunge into Darkness for Lion's Eye Diamond and winning with Infernal Tutor/IGG, you clear the path with Duress, and then you Diminishing Returns or Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns/Infernal Contract or Empty the Warrens or Mystical Tutor for Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens and just small ball the opponent. You can still win with Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond when the opportunity presents itself, i.e no Force of Will after a Duress, or you want to play the deck in the reverse order and Mystical Tutor for Orim's Chant, but your general philosophy is to just grind the opponent out of the game by Duressing his counters and then casting threat after threat until he gives up the fight. You'll use Infernal Tutor to duplicate your cards more than you'll use it to win, and often you'll hard cast a Diminishing Returns and not sacrifice your LED when you have another threat in hand.

After Flash is gone, I think this version of 5c Tendrils is the best combo deck in the format, and it exploits skill more than the traditional versions of TES by virtue of it's additional threat density and Mystical Tutor's specificity. You can use MD Xantid Swarm instead of MD Duress if you want, but I think it significantly slows the deck down and weakens the non-blue aggro-control match up and the combo mirror.

Sorry for the bad formatting, I'm really tired and writing most of this from memory.

Edit: @Anti-American, Street Wraith definitely does not suck, I've played with it for more than a month, and I think it's one of the strongest cards in the deck. The synergy with Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond and Diminishing Returns is just insanely strong, and Mystical Tutor + Street Wraith into Orim's Chant is absolutely incredible in the Storm mirror. 56 cards is definitely the way to go.

[revenge_inc]

@Anti~American4621 You've not quite convinced me.

TES is a "win-fast" deck right? You wanna combo off ASAP. Confidant only seems better if it sticks to the board 3 turns (of yours) after being played.(+3cards). Aren't you dead by then anyways? It seems like something faster would be better.

Who has tested Dark Confidant?
Does anyone have a situtation where they boarded them in and found them useful?

[Citrus-God]

@Anti~American4621 You've not quite convinced me.

TES is a "win-fast" deck right? You wanna combo off ASAP. Confidant only seems better if it sticks to the board 3 turns (of yours) after being played.(+3cards). Aren't you dead by then anyways? It seems like something faster would be better.

umm.... no. Have you read this article (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33269.0) yet. Have you seen all the Pitch Long's SB (Xantid Swarm is slow as balls, that good enough?)? What does that tell you? What it is trying to do is slowly the pace of the deck down, so it can find ways to win. Not relentlessly try and break the game through a ton of disruption being sided in against them. Combo decks try and win small, or bait bombs until it can resolve a bomb. One bomb is all it takes. Guess what, it applies to this deck to. Slowing your game down can make your game against Control much easier on your part.

This deck wont relentlessly go all-in unless the TES player knows he'll get away with it. Besides, it doesnt take that long. Another thing Confidant does is sit back and blocks Mages. There's no way an opponent would crash his Mages into Confidant, because if he does, he'll lose. That is how strong the deck is. With so much disruption and must counters, he'll probably be exhausted by then. He he even dares for threats with his Serum Visions over Counters, he'll lose.


Who has tested Dark Confidant?
Does anyone have a situtation where they boarded them in and found them useful?

Wastedlife has stories to tell about Confidant. He'll tell you about all the games he's won against Fish because of them.

[Bryant Cook]

Breathweapon your deck is not TES, I'd recommend finding a new thread for it.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to state that my SB is foreverever changing. There's days I like cards and days I don't right now theres 7 interchangeable slots. Theres alot of possibilities and some that aren't that great, I was recently testing vs. BHWC Landstill and was getting my ass handed to me whenever I opened an ETW. I'm considering going back to 2-2 on win conditions because not having double Tendrils was horrible. Which means that Cabal Therapy will more than likely find it's way out of the SB with only 2 ETW.

On Dark Confidant, this guy is always in and out of my SB. He's alright, nothing amazing; Confidant can be good against fish, but so can discard/REB. I didn't play him in Columbus and didn't miss him at all, so it's your choice. I'm just having a hard time finding what I like in the SB.

[BreathWeapon]

Breathweapon your deck is not TES, I'd recommend finding a new thread for it.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to state that my SB is foreverever changing. There's days I like cards and days I don't right now theres 7 interchangeable slots. Theres alot of possibilities and some that aren't that great, I was recently testing vs. BHWC Landstill and was getting my ass handed to me whenever I opened an ETW. I'm considering going back to 2-2 on win conditions because not having double Tendrils was horrible. Which means that Cabal Therapy will more than likely find it's way out of the SB with only 2 ETW.

On Dark Confidant, this guy is always in and out of my SB. He's alright, nothing amazing; Confidant can be good against fish, but so can discard/REB. I didn't play him in Columbus and didn't miss him at all, so it's your choice. I'm just having a hard time finding what I like in the SB.

I agree, but the two deck's are so analogous that it's difficult to separate them from each other with out referencing one another. Regardless, there's compatible tech, because replacing two of the storm cards with two Diminishing Returns is still a consideration for TES, and Infernal Contract seems to be almost a mandatory set up card for Burning Wish it has been so good to me.

I'm also starting to think that Mystical Tutor for Infernal Contract is fundamentally stronger than Plunge into Darkness, or perhaps replacing Plunge into Darkness with Infernal Contract and using Cabal Rituals again is just better than putting so much emphasis on finding and using LED. Diminishing Returns and Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain are about as close as T1.5 can get to T1's philosophy of just casting bomb after bomb and grinding the opponent out of the game as opposed to TES's philosophy of casting a tutor and LED and going all in. Sure, TES can still use 3 MD ETW to compliment that plan or Burning Wish for bombs, but it's threat density is piqued if either plan actually fails.

The Hull Breach and the Earthquake slots can be truncated into just Crime/Punishment. Crime/Punishment can remove multiple Chalice of the Void, multiple Pyrostatic Pillars and multiple Meddling Mages while inflicting collateral damage against the opponent's board. Despite being mana intensive, the versatility of the card and the SB space can be worth it. Void is a similar consideration, but it's so expensive and the discard could be win more.

Persecute is another set up card for Burning Wish I'm considering, because Duress pass, Burning Wish pass and then Persecute is just disgusting against Landstill, Threshold or High Tide.

Edit: Goblin War Strike looks awesome in the SB, especially if you are using 3 MD ETW. It's like it turns Burning Wish into an unrestricted Time Walk after you resolve ETW, and that's probably better than Cabal Therapy.

TES is what it is, but I'm not certain that Swarm/Plunge and the emphasis on LED/Infernal is the way to go any more. So often, you're just giving their Swords to Plowshares targets, reducing their clock and turning their counters into Mind Twists. I'm not saying TES is a bad deck, far from it, but I think there are other options that need to be reconsidered. What do you honestly consider to be the defining characteristics of TES?

[nightshade81]

MD

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
3 DIMINISHING RETURNS
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 MYSTICAL TUTOR
4 Brainstorm
4 STREET WRAITH
3 Duress
1 ORIM'S CHANT
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 FORBIDDEN ORCHARD
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 SIMIAN SPIRIT GUIDE

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 INFERNAL CONTRACT
1 Hullbreach
1 Rough/Tumble


I know I said I would never post on this thread again but seriously I could not stop laughing when I read this.

Edit: BTW is the deck INFINITELY more inconsistent with the inclusion of 1 Orim's Chant, or 2 if your looking at wastedlife list? Just curious how that played out.

This is spam and a borderline flame. There was no need to make this post.

-PR

[BreathWeapon]

I know I said I would never post on this thread again but seriously I could not stop laughing when I read this.

Edit: BTW is the deck INFINITELY more inconsistent with the inclusion of 1 Orim's Chant, or 2 if your looking at wastedlife list? Just curious how that played out.

Yeah, I think you were a little ahead of your time back then, and I'd like to apologize for being a dick, but Street Wraith, Orim's Chant and Infernal Contract also played a part in my decision to reconsider Mystical Tutor.

While Orim's Chant is a strong disruption card, it's also a slow disruption card. I don't think that Orim's Chant should be used as the main disruption card in the deck, because it can't be cast in advance of the combo (unless you're using it as a card disadvantage Peek or for baiting a Force of Will while Time Walking yourself into a Meddling Mage or Null Rod) and it requires W mana when being cast on the combo turn, which is really difficult to support with the UU mana for hard casting Diminishing Returns, the B mana for casting Dark Ritual and in other people's cases the R mana for casting Right of Flame. The reason I use Duress and Simian Spirit Guide is because neither of those cards conflict with hard casting Diminishing Returns on turn 2, while Orim's Chant needs the mana base to set up to do it, or a Force of Will is in the discard pile and you want to find Orim's Chant to go off with Infernal/LED into IGG/Tendril or Wish/LED into D7.

Multiple Orim's Chant work when you're relying on Tutor/LED, but I really dislike building my deck around Tutor/LED, which is why I always emphasized Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns and 3 MD Empty the Warrens.

Edit: I'm going to start my own thread in developmental soon if anybody is interested in following the deck there.

[andrew77]

I know I said I would never post on this thread again but seriously I could not stop laughing when I read this.

Edit: BTW is the deck INFINITELY more inconsistent with the inclusion of 1 Orim's Chant, or 2 if your looking at wastedlife list? Just curious how that played out.

You are cutting cabal rituals to add in chant. Cabal ritual really is quite weak so the deck doesn't really lose consistancy. You can also always find a way to use chant which never really makes it a dead card. The only problem I have had with chant is that it will slow me down at times because i can't drop it turn one and go off turn 2 as i can with xantid, due to the white mana requirement. Against control though waiting a few turns to get chant protection is usually worth it.

[matelml]

I have another hand to analyze: 1 City of brass, 2 LED, 1 Burning wish, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Tendrils of agony, 1 Rite of flame.

You are on the play against goblins, game 3. I had this situation on a tournament and went for turn 1 Diminishing returns, and won on turn 3. Maybe I should have went for Empty the warrens but i was afraid 10 tokens wouldn't be enough, especially having seen 3 pyrokenesis in his SB(I also saw Chalice game 2). The brainstorm plan I found too risky because of Wasteland.

I went 5-1 playing 2 pox, 1 wild zombies, 1 Monoblack aggro, 1 hannifish and in top 8 goblins. Then the top 4 split and I won a Sea. I lost from Pox round 2 and if the to 4 didn't split i would have had to play Flash and the other 2 decks in top 4 were Meathooks and Thresh. There were I believe 38 people.

Edit: I also have a question: against what decks are Confidants actually good, ecxept that they pitch for B?
The way I see it is that most of the time it won't come through because your opponents play creatures and creature removal and it won't give you less damage because when it blocks or keeps creatures at bay it damages you alswell, so I don't see why it's better than Night's whisper. On average it probably stays in play for 2 turns and deals you asmuch damage as you would have had anyway. I play Duress in it's place and it works well. I see wastedlife is already using it maindeck but i believe it doesn't fit maindeck. I tested it and when you don't have The Nuts with Dark rirual or LED you need Cabal ritual to make enough mana to win or make tokens. And about Chant I am not sure yet. I don't have spare coloured mana when i go off many times, but I will try them.( I might be bias because I would have to buy Chants :P)

[APriestOfGix]

I have another hand to analyze: 1 City of brass, 2 LED, 1 Burning wish, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Tendrils of agony, 1 Rite of flame.

Turn 1: land brainstorm.
Turn 2: Win

[matelml]

The problem with that is you know your opponent plays 4 wasteland so if there is no mana source within the next few cards and your opponent opens with waste, chalice, go or juste waste, go, you are in trouble.