[Deck] Survival [Archive]

04-03-2007, 03:25 PM

When the inception of Legacy first came to be, Survival was immediately pinned as one of the top decks, if not the top deck in the format. It encompasses a repertoire of powerful creatures with arguably one of the strongest cards in the format, Survival of the Fittest. Survival reigned for over a year in Legacy until a series of events brought it down, including the printing of new cards, and the format shifting towards a faster environment. Now the metagame is in the process of shifting again, and Survival has emerged as a very strong contender in a variety of forms, boasting top8 appearances in nearly every recent event.

Optimized Decklists:

RGB Survival Advantage (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5431)

Old RGSA Thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=622) (reference only)

EATS (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5130)

RGWU Survival (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5113) (Molotov Cocktail)

GBW Survival (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=7669) (No MTGS thread)

Reports and Results:

TMLO 2 Day 1 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5348) RGBSA

TMLO 2 Day 2 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5379) RGBW Survival (no individual thread)

2nd Annual GAGG (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4718&page=14) RGWU Survival (Molotov Cocktail) Also mention that both 9th and 10th place were taken by RGBSA and RGBW Survival.

Recent Articles:

Unlocking Legacy: Fit to Survive (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5142) by Doug Linn

Food for Thought:

- Which Survival builds are the best? What are the advantages/disadvantages of playing them? Which ones are the most consistant? Which ones have the best game without a Survival?

- What colors are appropriate for Survival builds? The lists above feature mixes from the entire color wheel. What colors create the ideal list? Keep it simple with only two colors, such as RG or BG, or use all the resources you can with the three or four-color combinations? Are the additional colors worth it, or is sticking to a more grounded color combination the key to victory?

- What is the optimal manabase for a Survival deck? Consider the number of lands and mana-producing creatures. What type of acceleration is best? The fast, one-drops such as Birds of Paradise or Llanowar Elves, or the efficient searchers like Sakura-Tribe Elder? Also consider the colors that are run. How big of a risk is it to be running 3+ colors? Is the manabase at risk?

- What are the optimal number of singleton slots in the deck? Older Survival builds eventually lost power because they were too focused on using SotF, and had many weak draws without it. Today's lists feature more bombs and fewer bullets. What bullets are acceptable, and how many should you run?

- What is the most efficient sideboard strategy for Survival? Sideboarding is often very troublesome for a Survival player because at times it is difficult to remove cards from the deck. Some sideboard choices are obvious, such as siding out artifact removal against a deck with no artifacts, but what if you are to board in a high number of cards, for example seven, and only have two or three cards that are worth taking out? How do you decide out of the rest of the deck what gets removed?

Brushwagg

04-04-2007, 07:39 PM

I like the fact that you can pretty much look at most of the Survival builds. Nice to see Survival made it back somewhere on the radar. Question is will more people prepare for it?

thefreakaccident

04-04-2007, 10:53 PM

Survival decks are decks that if you are unprepared or caught unawares as to what is accross the table from you you will loose. The main problem with most survival builds (mine encluded) is that without getting the survival in the first place it simply plays like a second rate aggro control; sometimes I will muck a decent hand w/o survival just because I need the explosiveness of an active survival for a speedy win. The new threats in our mea have made it very difficult to play any of my builds either (welder, ATS, grb advantage)... perhapes I can dedicate my SB to combo and anti-SB cards?

IDK... but I do know that it definitly is a force to be reconed with... I won a decent sized tourney (30-40 people) the first time I ever picked up ATS, so I guess that shows towards the decks' power.

Would be appreciative towards a generic SB for all of these varients...

bigbear102

04-05-2007, 12:33 AM

As for combo hate and the SB it is dependent upon the pilot, build, and meta. My build has a bit of hate main (Glowrider and Therapies) and some more in the board. The great thing about survival is that both the MD and SB can be easily tuned. I know my deck changes at least 1-2 cards depending upon what I am expecting, my SB can change even more than that.

I personally have grown to like the non-toolbox SB and run the best spells for the spot. I don't even worry that I have survival, but instead just find the strongest spells for what I am worried about. Obviously a couple of spots will be tool-box creatures, because that is a great advantage that survival has, you just don't want to weaken the deck when you don't get survival.

Bongo

04-05-2007, 09:07 AM

Food for Thought:

- Which Survival builds are the best? What are the advantages/disadvantages of playing them? Which ones are the most consistant? Which ones have the best game without a Survival?

Nice writeup.

I'll try to spark some discussion here with the Survival build I consider to be "best" (Survival builds should be built according to the metagame, so this term might not be appropriate): GBW.
If the mods feel that this is not the right place for this topic, feel free to move it to the appropriate forum.

The advantage of going GBW is that you have access to the most potent control cards in Legacy and GBW has a very solid game-plan without Survival. For a three-color deck, it is also remarkably resilient to manabase hate.

My current list:

22 Lands:
6x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Savannah
3x Bayou
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath

19 Creatures:
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Roots
3x Eternal Witness
3x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Withered Wretch
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Krovikan Horror
1x Genesis
1x Yosei, the Morning Star

19 Spells:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei’s Divining Top
3x Survival of the Fittest
1x Recurring Nightmare

The list is influenced by the builds on germagic.de and the terrific work of the Germans on this archetype.

The idea behind this build is: Survival is fundamentally a control card, hence you need to build a controllish shell around it. GBW offers the best cards for this, as Therapy, Swords and Deed make sure you have answers to almost everything.
Even without Survival, the deck operates quite well, since the power level of the other cards is quite high.
I think Survival is not an engine-card, but a reusable tutor. The change of this paradigm has huge influences on how you build Survival (e.g. the exclusion of Squee).

The goal is simple: Build up your manabase while keeping control and drop Survival afterwards, when you have ample mana to abuse it. The Yosei-Nightmare lock is very potent and should beat the endgame of most other strategies. Hierarch beatdown also occurs often when you got control over the game.

Some explanations might be in order:

- Tribe Elder and Wall of Roots were chosen over Birds or Werebear because they are far more resilient against removal and reliably get you the needed mana.
Wall of Roots is especially good with Survival, Krovikan and Top and allows you to pump out your threats faster. It was chosen over Wall of Blossoms because early-game acceleration is more important than the cantrip ability. You usually get card advantage with Survival, Deed and Witness anyway in the late-game.

- Krovikan Horror is a very versatile Squee replacement. In addition to recurring, it's also useful for pinging annoying one-toughness creatures, a searchable Sac-Outlet for Yosei and stopping Swords from removing crucial creatures.
Since you don't use Survival as often as in previous builds, the need for Squee is lessened, and KH is usually enough. This is one of the most difficult cards to play correctly, and you have to keep the interactions with STE, Nightmare, Survival, Witness and Wretch in mind.

- Sensei's Top makes sure that you have the right card at the right time. With Fetchlands, STE and Survival there are enough shuffle effects so that you can look at three fresh cards. It's also Deed-proof.

The deck is no fluke, as it has won or placed well in multiple tournaments (although all in Europe, since this deck is not very popular in the States).
I'm interested to hear your thoughts about this build!

from Cairo

04-05-2007, 09:38 AM

Wow very cool build there. Between Swords, Deed, Walls and recurring Heirarchs seems like it would keep a very good handle on Goblins. Most Survival builds tend to do well versus Gro, having Therapy, Wretch, along with recursion and good early game blockers seems like you would have inevitability over their 10-12 win conditions.

Looking at the mainboard anyway Combo seems like its still the decks biggest shortcoming. Nice thing about your build is that it doesnt run tons of 1cc mana accellerants, so it seems viable to board out StP for Chalices, would hurt Tops and Therapys, but one could probably drop one of those two cards turn one and Chalice for 1 turn two is very solid follow up to either. Glowriders also fit the color scheme, could see them being a pretty good option as well.

Anyway like the list, seems more appealing to me then RGBSA, given the decks that seem to be doing well lately.

Bongo

04-05-2007, 10:36 AM

Looking at the mainboard anyway Combo seems like its still the decks biggest shortcoming.

Thanks for the props!

Yeah, Combo is not good game 1, but the sideboard can at least help. My current SB is:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
1 Glowrider
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Krosan Grip

I think the Therapy/Duress & Witness is a better plan than Chalice, since most combo decks can play through it. Fiend and Glowrider are searchable answers that should help.
Plague is very useful against Goblins, Slivers and Fish.
Although Deed should take care of Affinity, I know how dangerous that deck can be, and a searchable answer in form of Kataki is needed.
The 2nd Harmonic can also be replaced by a Boneshredder if Angel Stompy is prevalent in your meta.
Krosan Grip is a very useful sideboard card that gets sided in quite often.

Mr.D

04-05-2007, 11:15 AM

that BWG build looks very solid, defenitly gonna try it out.
how about a single e-tutor in there? 3 nasty enchantments to search and a top to draw it with seems nice to me

04-05-2007, 11:28 AM

I'll try to spark some discussion here with the Survival build I consider to be "best" (Survival builds should be built according to the metagame, so this term might not be appropriate): GBW.
If the mods feel that this is not the right place for this topic, feel free to move it to the appropriate forum.

Yeah I didn't necessarily mean what deck is the "best" build, as I think it's nearly impossible for people to decide on that, but as you said, more like the most appropriate for the metagame.

It's nice to finally see you post the decklist on here, Bongo. Now, I'm not going to stretch this into a red/no red argument again, as we know how that went about last time, so I'll just offer some questions instead.

Seeing how Recurring Nightmare plays as a rather large part in your winning strategy considering the number of times you mentioned it, have you considered the possibility of running an Academy Rector? This is a debatable slot because she's 3W, but with a Survival in play it essentially allows you to tutor for recurring Nightmare. You also have a number of outlets to kill her by with Therapy, Pernicious Deed, and even Krovikan Horror.

I know you're in love with Top like none other, but has Sylvan Library been tested? I'm just curious if at all the fact that you need mana to be using Top might collide with using Survival, where Library is free and actually lets you draw the card. And considering you run multiple Heirarchs, it wouldn't always hurt you to draw the extra cards. The only issue I really see with it is it wouldn't be a turn 1 drop, but considering this is a late-game control deck, that shouldn't be an issue.

Also on your sideboard, I still see combo as a very hard matchup. Then again, combo is not as common on Europe as it is in America. However, the standard Survival build around here with black runs around 4 Cabal Therapy 3-4 Duress, 3-4 Mesmeric Fiend, and then maybe something else like Rule of Law, Pillar, etc. And despite all that, it still isn't posting a favorable matchup. I really think you're overestimating the deck's ability if you believe that only Duress and Therapy are going to get the job done along with singletons like Glowrider and Mesmeric Fiend. You're definately going to need another couple Glowriders or Mesmeric Fiends at the least if you want to be favored post-board.

Tacosnape

04-05-2007, 01:22 PM

I have a slightly different approach to combo with Survival as of lately.

In Price's RGBSA, Duress and Therapy find homes as 7-of main and 1-of in board, backed by 3 Mesmeric Fiends. The theory being that Survival can grab Mesmeric Fiend after Mesmeric Fiend after Mesmeric Fiend until you're Mesmeric Stompy, or you'll just randomly draw them as extra disruptors.

However, after a lot of games, I found Mesmeric Fiend a tad too slow against Epic Storm and Iggy Pop unless I opened with a Duress, and Solidarity either Echoing Truthed them or just shook off the hits. Solidarity can sometimes just be Mario with a Starman. I love to hum the "Invincible Mario" theme while comboing off. But I digress.

Most combo decks have ways of getting rid of Mesmeric to get their card back. And as a result, most of the games I'm winning against combo I'm winning as a result of a mega-powered Cabal Therapy.

So I'm wondering if there's not a better combo option somewhere for an RGB Build, without Mesmeric, and without using something like Chalice that compromises the Duress/Therapy engine unless you drop it for 0. Currently I'm running an army of Loaming Shamans in their place to walk over the Threshold and Loam-heavy metagame here. Is it safe to just dismiss combo as slightly unfavorable and try to randomly steal a match with Duress/Therapy/Beatdown? Or do we need some sort of silver bullet?

04-05-2007, 03:10 PM

However, after a lot of games, I found Mesmeric Fiend a tad too slow against Epic Storm and Iggy Pop unless I opened with a Duress, and Solidarity either Echoing Truthed them or just shook off the hits. Solidarity can sometimes just be Mario with a Starman. I love to hum the "Invincible Mario" theme while comboing off. But I digress.

Most combo decks have ways of getting rid of Mesmeric to get their card back. And as a result, most of the games I'm winning against combo I'm winning as a result of a mega-powered Cabal Therapy.

I find this rather surprising. How is 2 mana too slow, considering generally game 2 you will be on the play? TES does NOT have a reliable means of getting rid of it, so in most cases it will act as a Duress. Chances are they won't be wasting a Burning Wish to get Earthquake just to kill a Mesmeric Fiend. Iggy Pop does have some means to remove it, but it still most likely isn't worth their time. Because they run so few, they'd be relying on either Intuition or a hellbent Infernal Tutor just to bounce a Mesmeric Fiend. If that was the case, they should be able to win.

The only other option you have to something as solid as Fiend is either Blackmail, which is terrible, or Hymn to Tourach, which is almost impossible to cast on the first couple turns of the game unless you luck into BB.

Basically from what I found though is that the combination of Duress, Therapy, and Mesmeric Fiend generally aren't enough to put combo away. Every single combo deck can fight through discard rather well, and just win over your face. This is why you need something else in addition to the discard. Whether is be Pyrostatic Pillar, Rule of Law, Chalice of the Void, Glowrider, whatever, you need some sort of bomb that can swing the favor of the match. The only thing discard does is stall them so you can hopefully draw more of it while putting down a clock. However if you don't draw past that second discard spell, you're likely to lose. Instead, it's a lot better if you use those stall tactics in discard to give you more time to drop a bomb against them so they can't steal a win from under you.

Is it safe to just dismiss combo as slightly unfavorable and try to randomly steal a match with Duress/Therapy/Beatdown? Or do we need some sort of silver bullet?

Hell no it's not safe. Those combo matches that you would lose are the ones that will keep you out of the top8. I made this mistake before with some other decks, and lo' and behold, it cost me a top8. Twice. Considering combo matches are realistically the only hard matchups the deck has (you could count Goblins as well, but you're already heavily boarding for it) it's vital that you devote a lot of time into the deck to fight it. There's no point in making the deck better against good matchups while hoping you won't face the bad matchups.

Citrus-God

04-05-2007, 04:33 PM

I know this is random, but I would also like to clear this up...

All Survival builds are Midgame decks. They're creature based decks that act on using vitual/actual card advantage using Midgame creatures, creatures with strong stats creating vitual card advantage and board dominance, and a late game capibility. A deck like Survival and The Rock run Trolls, Witnesses, and Baloths/Hierarchs. Why do you their concept and design look the same?
In no way is this deck an aggro control deck, as aggro control decks were designed to beat Control (not board control, but a fun fact is that RGSA was designed to combat Board Control decks like Landstill) and and Combo. Sadly many of the of the aggro control decks do beat those decks, but have to take up a more "midgame" approach to combat the format. Look at MeatHooks, Fish, and Thresh. Anyways, I end my point. I just want to clear up that this is a board control deck.

As for my solution to fight combo, I remembered seeing an old list ObFreely won with on SCG. It had 4 Glowriders and 3 Sphere of Resistances in the SB. It look liked it got the Glowrider out consistently on turn 2-3. It looked awesome. I cant stress how much it goes to the theme of Survival, and yet has some game against Combo. I thought the synergy in this deck were awesome, and it plays a little like Vial Goblins' Board Control counterpart; like using marginal effects that are effective early game, but once somethine like Survival or Ringleader resolves it puts those marginal cards into good effect in conjunction of multiples, as the deck runs Mogg Fanatics, Mancer, and Sharpshooter and stuff. I thought it looked cool and I may get around to actually trying this deck out for the hell of it, but then again, it's really outdated....

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=11783

AngryTroll

04-05-2007, 04:47 PM

I've been playing with 4 Duress, 3 Therapy main, and a fourth in the Wishboard, and then 3-4 Pyrostatic Pillars in the sideboard of RGBSA instead of Mesmeric Fiend. Chalice for zero is strong against TES, but against Solidarity it needs to be set at one, making it a very suboptimal card from the sideboard against them.

Bongo

04-05-2007, 05:01 PM

Yeah, I hope we can have some productive discussion here. Thanks for discussing this in a neutral way.
I'll get straight to your points:

Seeing how Recurring Nightmare plays as a rather large part in your winning strategy considering the number of times you mentioned it, have you considered the possibility of running an Academy Rector? This is a debatable slot because she's 3W, but with a Survival in play it essentially allows you to tutor for recurring Nightmare. You also have a number of outlets to kill her by with Therapy, Pernicious Deed, and even Krovikan Horror. .

I tried a version with Academy Rector before, but it was a more combo-finish oriented version, similar to the old Wheaties. The problem is that once you start dabbling with Rector, you're tempted include more powerful enchantments like Decree of Silence or Debtors Knell, which takes the deck in a completely different direction.

I have found the Top in combination with the shuffle effects to be enough to find the Nightmare in time. However, there is the possibility of cutting 1 Top and another card for 2 Enlightened Tutor. That should also answer the question of Mr.D.
I played with ET before and cut it because it is not that good against counters and fast decks. This is a point I'm not entirely sure about and I might go back to the version with 2 ET.

I know you're in love with Top like none other, but has Sylvan Library been tested? I'm just curious if at all the fact that you need mana to be using Top might collide with using Survival, where Library is free and actually lets you draw the card. And considering you run multiple Heirarchs, it wouldn't always hurt you to draw the extra cards. The only issue I really see with it is it wouldn't be a turn 1 drop, but considering this is a late-game control deck, that shouldn't be an issue.

In my RGB version, I play with Sylvan Library. In GBW, SL doesn't have good synergy with Deed, hence the Top.

-------

About the combo match in general:

The SB answers depend on what kind of combo you predict to face. Tendrils-based? High Tide? Aluren? Salvagers?
Survival, as a control deck with creatures, is at a fundamental advantage against combo. I didn't say that I have a favorable matchup against combo, just that my sideboard helps somewhat.
This might be superflous, but if there is significant amount of combo in your meta, you should switch to something like BW Confidant.

In my experience, the Discard package + Witness was enough to carry me. This probably has to do with the skill level of my opponents, because you have to be a very good pilot to navigate your deck through disruption. The margin of error for your opponent is really small.

Right now, I'm tinkering on a transformational sideboard. 8-12 disruption cards are enough, what I need in the combo matchup is a quick clock so that I can pursue an aggro-control plan. Developments will follow (any ideas are greatly appreciated, of course).

Tao

04-05-2007, 10:08 PM

I created that Gbw deck together with a friend (here Joe Eigo). I even posted the deck on MWS about 7 month ago with many Top 8 finishes in Germany and 2 won TheSource tourneys (with nearly the exact decklist) but moderators nevertheless removed it from the Open forums and so it disappered.

The deck is still good, but unfortunately in the last few month the very good matchups (Rifter, Landstill, Angel Stompy, Zilla Stompy, Threshold, Faerie Stompy) got fewer
and some mediocre matchups (Hanni Fish, Gbr/SA)
and bad matchups (TES, Terrageddon, Aluren)
appeared.

To Bongo's list: It is good, but I would play Wall of Blossoms over Wall of Roots. The cantrip is fundamental to create card advantage in combination with Cabal Therapy and it is also important to minimize the impact of Pernicious Deed on your own board.

04-05-2007, 10:35 PM

I tried a version with Academy Rector before, but it was a more combo-finish oriented version, similar to the old Wheaties. The problem is that once you start dabbling with Rector, you're tempted include more powerful enchantments like Decree of Silence or Debtors Knell, which takes the deck in a completely different direction.

Of course the temptation would be there, but that's why you need to resist that. :) Between shufflers and Top you theoretically can find Nightmare, but using Rector allows you to hardlock the opponent much faster, giving them less time to find outs to beat you.

In my RGB version, I play with Sylvan Library. In GBW, SL doesn't have good synergy with Deed, hence the Top.

Point taken.

This might be superflous, but if there is significant amount of combo in your meta, you should switch to something like BW Confidant.

This was the same pitch Hi-val was chiming to when he released his Survival article. I can't help but disagree with this argument anything less than 100%. I mean, we're trying to make the deck better. That's the point of playing the deck in the first place. Switching to a different deck because it has a couple bad matchups as opposed to innovating to improve those matchups is fundamentally wrong. Those bad matchups (combo) are really the only things keeping Survival in check, and out of the tier 1.

Right now, I'm tinkering on a transformational sideboard. 8-12 disruption cards are enough, what I need in the combo matchup is a quick clock so that I can pursue an aggro-control plan. Developments will follow (any ideas are greatly appreciated, of course).

What kind of transformational sideboard are you talking? Honestly I really don't see how your deck could get that much faster given the design of it. You're based off of a pure control deck atm. It depends what you're looking for though. Something like Flesh Reaver would be ok as it's a great 2-drop that kills quickly. I would've recommended Negator as well, but the lack of a 1cc mana accelerant makes it infinately worse. Playing him turn 3 against combo is too slow imo.

Oh I also forgot to mention this the first time around, but have you GBW guys tried Dark Confidant? Sans the whole Pernicious Deed thing, it provides so much for the deck that other cards can't really offer. I personally put it way ahead on the power level compared to Sensei's Divining Top, as it also Considering the 3 Heirarch in the deck, the lifeloss should be a minimal issue.

All Survival builds are Midgame decks. They're creature based decks that act on using vitual/actual card advantage using Midgame creatures, creatures with strong stats creating vitual card advantage and board dominance, and a late game capibility. A deck like Survival and The Rock run Trolls, Witnesses, and Baloths/Hierarchs. Why do you their concept and design look the same?
In no way is this deck an aggro control deck, as aggro control decks were designed to beat Control (not board control, but a fun fact is that RGSA was designed to combat Board Control decks like Landstill) and and Combo. Sadly many of the of the aggro control decks do beat those decks, but have to take up a more "midgame" approach to combat the format. Look at MeatHooks, Fish, and Thresh. Anyways, I end my point. I just want to clear up that this is a board control deck.

While I don't entirely disagree with this statement, I can't help but ask you this: What do you call a Survival deck without Survival in play? It sure as hell isn't a control deck. In that position it more than likely takes the form of aggro. I think people misunderstand the complete meaning of "aggro-control," because the other decks listed as such are so different from Survival. This deck, by nature is aggressive control. It is a control deck at heart, but it's gameplan is incredibly aggressive, moreso than that of something like Threshold. People are claiming this deck isn't aggro-control because they don't start attacking until like turn 4 or so, but yet they claim a deck like Threshold is. Threshold typically won't drop a creature until it has Threshold, which might not be as late as turn 5-6, and then it starts attacking. How exactly is that aggro, and this deck isn't? They play their creatures and start attacking during the end of the midgame to lategame, when Survival will play a FTK on turn 3 and immediately start attacking the turn afterwards.

Citrus-God

04-05-2007, 11:52 PM

While I don't entirely disagree with this statement, I can't help but ask you this: What do you call a Survival deck without Survival in play? It sure as hell isn't a control deck. In that position it more than likely takes the form of aggro.

Even when I play RGSA, I still see it as a "Midgame" deck. I play Control in way too many of my match-ups to actually call it an Aggro deck. Maybe perhaps against a Board Control deck or Combo deck, then I'll probably play Beatdown, but outside of that, playing Control against other Creature decks isnt a bad idea, since I probably wont play Beatdown against a deck like Goblins or Threshold.

I'll be perfectly honest here; the only Survival decks I have ever played in my life are RGSA and ATS. I never had a good understanding of ATS, but I loved that deck to death. RGSA however is the deck I took most of my examples from. I dont expect RGSA to be a pure control deck, but it can drag it's way into late game if it needs to if theres a stalemate.

I think people misunderstand the complete meaning of "aggro-control," because the other decks listed as such are so different from Survival. This deck, by nature is aggressive control.

I tend to see Midgame decks as Control decks that apply pressure to the opponent in both forms of board dominanace and a deadly clock. Something like Angel Stompy would fit my discription.

It is a control deck at heart, but it's gameplan is incredibly aggressive, moreso than that of something like Threshold. People are claiming this deck isn't aggro-control because they don't start attacking until like turn 4 or so, but yet they claim a deck like Threshold is. Threshold typically won't drop a creature until it has Threshold, which might not be as late as turn 5-6, and then it starts attacking. How exactly is that aggro, and this deck isn't? They play their creatures and start attacking during the end of the midgame to lategame, when Survival will play a FTK on turn 3 and immediately start attacking the turn afterwards.

Well said. I didnt really say it was a complete control deck, but I guess what I said was interpreted as a pure control deck. I guess I should've put a Midgame deck's gameplan in context, since Midgame decks tend to just be aggressive control decks, but in a different sense from the average aggro-control deck.

from Cairo

04-06-2007, 03:46 AM

Survival, as a control deck with creatures, is at a fundamental advantage against combo. I didn't say that I have a favorable matchup against combo, just that my sideboard helps somewhat.
I'm not sure I follow this. I could be wrong, but I feel like the midgame role that most survival take leaves them at a disadvantage against combo. Regular agro with any form of disruption (mana denial or discard seem most likely) applies a clock, so the combo player is put on the ropes early to find the pieces and combo off before they are dead. Well timed Duress/Therapy or Waste/Port can often buy the needed time for a win.

Straight control in a counters and board sweepers sense also seems like it might be in no worse a position then a Survival deck, something like Landstill, that has the ability to say no, through counters and stifles. Generally control is worse off then agro control, but GBW Survival doesn't really appear to have any better clock then say Landstill. The only disruption main board against combo is 4x Therapy, and with only 10 creatures with 2 power or greater and half of them costing 4+ mana there isn't really any clock to speak of.

I'm not trying to bash on the design though it seems really good for fighting Goblins and NQG. I would just still be worried with running only discard to disrupt TES and Solidarity. It seems like it has the ability to stall into the late game against whatever non-combo deck where it will inevitably win, through Genesis/Recurring Nightmare/Witness/Yosie, or just go agro with a few 2/1s and 4/4s.

I think 4 Glowriders are a step in the right direction for SB hate, they are very solid vs NQG and storm based combo. Maybe 3-4 Duress and 4 Glowriders along side the Therapies main would be a sufficient disruption package. The plus side to Glowriders and discard of coarse being that if you can either draw into a few of them or get Survival going, with Eternal Witness you can start mounting a bit of an agro plan with the 2/1s while recurring discard and restricting the combo players ability to cast their spells.

Tao

04-06-2007, 05:43 AM

Of course the temptation would be there, but that's why you need to resist that. :) Between shufflers and Top you theoretically can find Nightmare, but using Rector allows you to hardlock the opponent much faster, giving them less time to find outs to beat you.

Rector is really bad in this deck. He is way too slow against Aggro and Combo and in the control mirrors, where he should be good, he will often get StoPed. Of course it can be nice to sac him into a Therapy, but usually you want to flashback the Therapy earlier with a Wall to keep your opponent from doing strong plays - or from countering your 4-drop.
I tested with Rector a long time ago and he just sucked. Always. When I had drawn him he sucked and I never wanted to Survival for him.

This was the same pitch Hi-val was chiming to when he released his Survival article. I can't help but disagree with this argument anything less than 100%. I mean, we're trying to make the deck better. That's the point of playing the deck in the first place. Switching to a different deck because it has a couple bad matchups as opposed to innovating to improve those matchups is fundamentally wrong. Those bad matchups (combo) are really the only things keeping Survival in check, and out of the tier 1.

Yes. I agree to 100%.

I would've recommended Negator as well, but the lack of a 1cc mana accelerant makes it infinately worse. Playing him turn 3 against combo is too slow imo.

The 3-drop of choice against Combo is Glowrider. It is quite strong and you can Survival for it. The problem is that the sideboard is really full. Krosan Grips are just way too strong to strong, you can never go under 2. And my fear of Goblins always makes me play 4 Engineered Plagues. I also like to have 2 Darkblast in my SB, because they are good against Hanni Fish, which is qquite popular here. That leaves only 7 slots to combat Combo decks.

However, in an American Meta my Sideboard would probably look like:

4 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip

4 Duress
3 Extirpate (this card is actually very strong in the Control mirror (especially Landstill and Loam Control) and in some Combo matchups - (especially Aluren, Iggy Pop and Solidarity
1 Rule of Law (important E. Tutor target against Combo)
1 Glowrider

Oh I also forgot to mention this the first time around, but have you GBW guys tried Dark Confidant? Sans the whole Pernicious Deed thing, it provides so much for the deck that other cards can't really offer. I personally put it way ahead on the power level compared to Sensei's Divining Top, as it also Considering the 3 Heirarch in the deck, the lifeloss should be a minimal issue.

He dies too fast for this deck. The deck does not want to trade 1-1 with Mogg Fanatic, Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice. It has the same problem like in the Gbr/SA, only worse because you are even more controllish.

I would just still be worried with running only discard to disrupt TES and Solidarity.

Yes, that's why you need to have Glowrider, Extirpate and Rule of Law in your Sideboard. If you draw some discard you really don't have to worry about Solidarity going off. You can keep them with Witness-Therapy on 1-2 cards in hand. They won't win the game. Just play fast enough and scoop game 1 if nessecary.

I think 4 Glowriders are a step in the right direction for SB hate, they are very solid vs NQG and storm based combo. Maybe 3-4 Duress and 4 Glowriders along side the Therapies main would be a sufficient disruption package.

If you can find room for more Glowriders they are the way to go. But I have a lot of experience with this deck and believe me - you want 4 Engineered Plagues and 2-3 Krosan Grips in your sideboard. And I was also very satisfied with Extirpate even though that would be the card you could cut for additional Glowriders.

Bongo

04-06-2007, 06:12 AM

Tao answered most questions, so I'll talk about my sideboard.

Currently, I'm tinkering with Worship as a solution against Goblins, which frees up sideboard space (I switched back to 2 Enlightened Tutors maindeck).

4 Duress
3 Glowrider
3 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Krosan Grip
1 Worship
1 Rule of Law

As you can see, the Goblin matchup is weaker, but STE and Wall of Roots should help to get the Worship down in time.
I tried a Jotun Grunt man-plan, but that wasn't very effective.
My plan is to apply pressure with turn 1 discard, turn 2 Mesmeric, turn 3 Glowrider, with Rule of Law as a tutor-target.

What do you think of this approach? Is the Extirpate plan here better?

Tao

04-06-2007, 06:24 AM

If you want to hide behind a single Enchantment I would play Sphere of Law.

Goblins can kill all your creatures with Incinerator and it is much better to be on more than one life when they draw their Disenchant.

iOWN

04-06-2007, 07:41 PM

The only other option you have to something as solid as Fiend is either Blackmail, which is terrible, or Hymn to Tourach, which is almost impossible to cast on the first couple turns of the game unless you luck into BB.

I don't see how getting BB would be luck, considering there are 12 lands to get a swamp + Sakura-Tribe Elder. Although Hymn is a little worse in the Tendrils match than both Duress (speed) and Mesmeric Fiend (colored mana, tutorable, RFG card), it is much better against Solidarity and early game versus Control. I see Hymn as a cogent slot in the sideboard, as it fills multiple roles and allows you to dedicate more of your sideboard to other relevant match-ups.

4 Hymn
2 Glowrider
3 Duress/Fiend
3 Engineered Plague
1 Rule of Law
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Loaming Shaman

I don't really see why Krosan Grip is such an essential slot: It adds even more cards in the deck that you don't have tutor-access to, and doesn't really address many pertinent problems, other than being able to get through to Pithing Needle against Threshold. If that's the case, Thresh will be gaining the same card and be able to find it through cantrips faster than Top will, meaning your Deeds/Survival will be toast anyhow.

Chalice of the Void @1 would be much stronger against them. Even though it can nullify a few of your own slot, it shutting down half their deck overshadows any problems. In addition to that, it is extremely good against any Tendrils deck set to 0, which wouldn't even effect you and can follow into a first turn Chalice + Therapy/Duress.

GBW Survival looks really strong to me (success showing it), and I hope it continues in a good path of development.

from Cairo

04-07-2007, 04:20 AM

You miss Brainstorm somewhat

I feel like you would miss it alot, it's synergy with survivals shuffle effects was insane. In fairness though alot of its power was the ability to put unneeded creatures back into the deck and grabbing any non-creature spells off the top of the library then shuffling back in the unneeded creatures. With Worship, 2x Tutor and 4 Survival being the only non-creature spells, I could see it being weakened a great deal. In you're build it wouldnt be able to hide FOWs on the top of the library vs discard, or dig for FOW/Stifle/Mana leak from pervious builds.

Only other thing that seems risky/bad is the huge amount of mana guys in the deck. 4 BoP, 4 Wall of Roots, 4 Rofellos, 1 Elf, 1 Ranger..... 14 of your 40 nonland cards are mana... thats 34 mana sources, seems like overkill... it also seems like you will draw into alot of hands that without Survival will lack threats, and that your top decks without Survival to pitch mana dudes to will be very rough.

Nightmare

04-07-2007, 10:12 AM

The posted Grwu list has zero game vs. any non-Solidarity combo deck, and little against Solidarity, too. Basically, without black, you need something else to battle the speed of those decks, and it seems you've ignored them instead.

Brushwagg

04-11-2007, 09:56 PM

[4] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary [GG]

Is that a typo?? Why would you you play 4?? That's 3 wasted slots. If want more then 1 play 2 at the most, which is bad. I would cut 3 Rofelloes for something like Werebear. It gives you mana early and becomes a 4/4 late. Yes Rofelloes is a removal magnet, but 4 is just overkill.

04-11-2007, 10:32 PM

No that isn't a typo. Mike Glow has run 4 Rofellos in his deck for years. Why that is is beyond me seeing how they are dead draws after the first and provide no real threat outside of Survival, but oh well.

Anyway, this thread's discussion has died down. Wtf people? I put those questions in the beginning of the thread to get it going and it hasn't really been talked about. So get to it!

troopatroop

04-11-2007, 10:35 PM

Is that a typo?? Why would you you play 4?? That's 3 wasted slots. If want more then 1 play 2 at the most, which is bad. I would cut 3 Rofelloes for something like Werebear. It gives you mana early and becomes a 4/4 late. Yes Rofelloes is a removal magnet, but 4 is just overkill.

Well it's not that bad. Having 6 mana on turn 3 is crazy.

Zach Tartell

04-11-2007, 11:46 PM

Having the six mana is nice, but having 3 other dead cards is kind of terrible. And without survival he just powers out... baloths. I like playing two - enough that you'll hit it quick, and so you won't lose if he's STP'd, and can pull him back with whitnesses.

04-12-2007, 12:33 AM

I really couldn't justify running more than two. More than that and you're running into dead draws when they could be threats. Recently I did have two in the deck before going back down to one, but two is probably acceptable if you can support it. Considering it is the deck's largest target, Rofellos is prone to survive only for a turn or two after you cast him because he makes the deck go insane, so running the 2nd to tutor for after the first one dies is acceptable. However, he's only insane when he has things to back him up. Outside or Survival or Masticore, he's just another piece of accel. The deck curves out at the 4cc spot, so once you hit that you really don't need to be using him as often because all your threats can be played.

Generally he's really only an issue if you need to be churning out a lot of mana fast. Of course, that's the gameplan during every game, but if you're losing a game because Rofellos was killed then you're playing the deck incorrectly. He's the absolute nuts when he's online, but by far not important enough to warrant too many slots to. Instead, those should be focused on more threats/bombs to make the deck not suck without a Survival on the board.

Bongo

04-12-2007, 07:39 PM

After tinkering around, I arrived at this configuration:

4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
1 Rule of Law
1 Glowrider
1 Kataki/Loaming Shaman/Boneshredder/Mesmeric Fiend/Harmonic Sliver (metagame slot)
4 Extirpate

My previously posted board was pretty good against combo, but had the problem of not being able to beat Loam-based decks. Extirpate takes care of Loam shenanigans and is also nice against odd stuff like Ichorid or Reanimator. It also stops Crucible Wasteland shenanigans.
In combination with 4 Duress and 4 Therapy, Extirpate is also able to disrupt most combo decks pretty heavily. Extirpate is better used in Survival than in Deadguy variants imo.

04-12-2007, 10:44 PM

A full playset of Extirpate seems terrible considering its poor uses against combo aside from Iggy Pop, but then again the Loam decks are much more popular in Europe. I don't know how you think it really hurts the combo decks that much. It's good against Iggy Pop, but Solidarity could care less (see Cunning Wish) and TES runs so many different cards that it most likely wouldn't even matter (also, see Burning Wish)

Even so, I think there would always a be a better slot for the sideboard because Loam decks can easily be handeled with graveyard hate. Hell, just run Jotun Grunt and they pretty much cry, and it gives you an effective clock. That would also free up slots for your combo matchup, which you constantly underestimate believing a mere 4 Duress and Therapy with Witness backup is enough to win provided you have almost no clock.

TorpidNinja

04-14-2007, 03:15 PM

Would anyone here hesitate to throw the upcoming creature that cycles for 2 life into a Survival build?

MattH

04-14-2007, 03:37 PM

Yes. He is probably at his very WORST in Survival. A deck with a lot of tutoring power values its slots MORE than your average deck, and simply cannot afford to waste the card slots on that guy.

I am interested in the black creature that sacs in upkeep to Wrench Mind. He is just fast enough to be of use against some combo.

Tacosnape

04-14-2007, 03:50 PM

Well it's not that bad. Having 6 mana on turn 3 is crazy.

I don't like running 4 ever. 4 is Ridiculous.

But I have frequently run more than one. Generally in BGW I ran three (Sometimes two), which reduces the chances of me drawing a hand full of them. One of my favorite plays was turn two Rofellos, turn 3 Silvos.

The concept behind multiple Rofellos is simple. If they don't kill it, you can go completely nuts. If they -do-, you have a backup. Also, it's worth bearing in mind, with a red splash running Anger you can get at least one Rofellos activation before they can do -anything-, whereas it's a lot more difficult to keep a Rofellos around long enough to use him in BGW.

Zach Tartell

04-17-2007, 08:53 PM

I've got some ideas. First, readthis (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=11783)over. I really like the whole 4 Glowrider MD'd. Although, unless I've been drinking, it apprears that he has 14 lands. That might be a mistake. Maybe he's forgotten to write down the foothills. Hmm...

I think that alot of the the combo decks out there today can play around chalices, even in multiples, but sphere of resistance's and glowriders are really difficult to beat. No joke, shit's awful tough. I've been playing alot of TES recently, and (as half of my team only plays survival) I've been finding glowriders fucking irritating. Furthermore, I think there's even more hope for survival: Magus of the moon.

He makes control matchups crazy. For serious man. Think about how landstill will deal with this guy. Or even tes, I guess. They'd have to go mono-tokens, or run off of LED's and petals and moxen. So I guess it's not that much of a bomb against them. But it's still good. And make solidarity's fetches just mountains. Maybe I'm over hyping-him a bit. But he's really good.

I've been thinking about working on a GRw list to use. That new aven guy would make playing TES or IGGY pop pretty cool. But we'd have to play a bunch of basics to make the blood moon dude playable. Imagine if they'd made magus of the chains.... woo hoo! Sucks that the abyss was the pick instead. I'll just have to think about what may have been.

04-17-2007, 09:12 PM

I've got some ideas. First, readthis over. I really like the whole 4 Glowrider MD'd. Although, unless I've been drinking, it apprears that he has 14 lands. That might be a mistake. Maybe he's forgotten to write down the foothills. Hmm...

I only count 55 cards in the deck, so I assume the last ones would be lands. That would make the land count seem a bit more reasonable at 19 over 14.

I agree that Glowrider is most likely the best anti-combo weapon there is for Survival decks. It is difficult for combo decks to work around it because it hinders them from actually playing the spells, and it provides a clock. Of course, that is all in addition to the fact that you can string them together with Survival.

Magus of the Moon is also retarded. So retarded, that I'm even debating finding room for him in EATS despite a 4color manabase. He's that good. Although he's much more suited for either an RGBSA or RGWSA list, it's worth trying out in basically every single Survival deck.

The new Aven guy just seems weak. Outside of the Survival mirror, I can barely recall a matchup I'd care to see it. Nuking fetchlands is a maybe considering the opponent has a good chance of seeing a land in the top cards of the deck, and outside of combos' tutors, it's useless. As a hate card for combo it's incredibly weak, basically just saying you can't use Infernal Tutor. That doesn't cut it for a hate slot.

Zach Tartell

04-17-2007, 10:28 PM

The new Aven guy just seems weak. Outside of the Survival mirror, I can barely recall a matchup I'd care to see it. Nuking fetchlands is a maybe considering the opponent has a good chance of seeing a land in the top cards of the deck, and outside of combos' tutors, it's useless. As a hate card for combo it's incredibly weak, basically just saying you can't use Infernal Tutor. That doesn't cut it for a hate slot.

He sucks for most things, he'd prolly be a 1-of in the side. Not worth running main decked.

Also, on a actually playable for the GP thing, I've been looking into running more than one squee. Is that just plain uncouth? I've been looking into MD-ing the masques ":2::w:tap, ditch a card from hand: blow up an enchantment or artifact". Not enough reason to run two? I just find that I run out of gas alot, and wish I could tutor up the best two answers someof the itme.

04-18-2007, 12:39 PM

Also, on a actually playable for the GP thing, I've been looking into running more than one squee. Is that just plain uncouth? I've been looking into MD-ing the masques "tap, ditch a card from hand: blow up an enchantment or artifact". Not enough reason to run two? I just find that I run out of gas alot, and wish I could tutor up the best two answers someof the itme.

Running multiple Squee isn't unheard of, but is always a bad call. Generally if you have a single Squee with Survival, you're already in good shape. Getting multiples is really just unnecessary. Plus, it is completely a dead draw outside of the Survival engine. Adding an additional shitty card to draw when you're trying to win without Survival is bad. Of course, you could make the argument of them removing one so you can use another, but considering how many creatures the deck runs, that shouldn't be much of a problem. Basically if you expect to see graveyard hate just bait the Squee and if they bite then you get Anger and Genesis afterwards.

As for Devout Witness (your Masques guy), his issue is simple: needs haste. Coming into play then waiting a turn isn't going to do much against an opponent's Survival, Jitte, Deed, whatever. If you want enchantment hate maindeck, then the only viable options are Kami of the Ancient Law and Indrik Stomphowler. Kami is ok I suppose, and Stomphowler is ridiculously expensive. However that's up to you.

Brushwagg

04-18-2007, 10:06 PM

@lonelybaritone:If your looking for more Squee effects, look at Basking Rootwalla. I know not everyone is a fan of it, but putting a dude into play and finding something with Survival is good. Not to mention he is pretty good went hard cast to.

@Devout Witness:The mana issue can come up too. Vandals all the way!

MattH

04-18-2007, 11:07 PM

The basic reason you don't want 2 Squee is because they are the worst card in the deck without Survival.

Tacosnape

04-19-2007, 01:03 AM

The basic reason you don't want 2 Squee is because they are the worst card in the deck without Survival.

Unless you run Taiga and Cabal Therapy. Then they're the worst card in the deck, but useful and very amusing.

Wobbles The Goose

04-19-2007, 06:23 AM

outsideangel

04-19-2007, 02:25 PM

Ok, I don't do this very often (post that is), but I do have to ask about utilizing three of the slots in any number of the survival builds listed at the beginning of this thread to be filled with Caller of the Claw, Saffi Eriksdotter, and Crypt champion. Now, builds have been running caller for a while, and Crypt/Saffi is decent on her own against things like deed (Saffi saving Witness is the bee's knees). With Champion you can survival both into the yard, play champion then grab caller eventually and attack with infinate angry bears. This typically can happen on turn 4 with a Rofellos. Naturally it's probably a metagame call for removal heavy enviroments just so that those three aren't useless on your own. Something to think about.

I think that's a really cool idea and a nice little mini-combo for the deck. Infinite hasted guys seems strong, though some timely instant speed removal can disrupt it. I think the best part is that, as you mentioned, the pieces are useful on their own, both being played and even just being creatures to be pitched to Survival.

Zach Tartell

04-20-2007, 11:04 AM

@Tacosnape - after reading your member description, I must give some applause. I've been reading you name as "Tarnoscape" for like the last month. Freaking sweet.

Bad news, brothers. I tried to update Hetfield's list, and came up with this:

8 Fetches
4 Taiga
3 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Forest
4 Glowrider
4 Fanatic
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Loxodon Heiararch
4 FTK (I have no idea why he was only running one)
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Squee
4 SOTF
4 BOP
4 Tinder Wall
1 Roefellos
1 Deranged hermit
2 Basking Rootwalla
1 Veridian Zelot
3 Eternal Whitness

My Conclusions:
-Whitness is only hot when therapy is around. Like, seriously
-Hermit is changing into the sex monkeys, so don't worry. I mean, he's pretty sweet, but I just don't think he fits very well in this list. Or maybe he does. I tested agianst UGr thresh and UWr scepter chant. Not too much relevnat legacy around here if Matt doesn't show up.
-Survival sucks without survival. Like, hard. Is there any way I could run five and like... bribe eli to not give me a deck check?
-Sharpshooter is amazing. Like, hard. In goldfishing they turned out to be MVP's, and have some pretty savage synergy with fanatics.
-Tinder wall or rootwallas. Not both. I'm gonna go with tinderwalls myself.
-We may need more combo hate than just glowriders. Black has the best options, but I really don't want to have to cut the deck up to fit it in.

My board looked like:
3 Rule of Law
3 Pithing needle
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Caller of the claw
3 Naturalize - I found that I'd only want to nuke stuff against decks without counterspells. Or against, thresh, which I have a good matchup against anyways.
4 more something. Help?

Mulletus

04-22-2007, 10:13 AM

Well I hope this weekend's Dual4duals shows how strong this deck is. Out of the top 8, there was 1/4 gro-ish, 1/4 combo (reanimate, aluren), 1/4 agro (gob, boro), and 1/4 Survival.

There was 4 Survival decks there, one got bumped out of top 8 on tiebreakers, and the other was kindof a new player who still rode the deck to 3-3. The new player was playing a Madness varient with heavy black for discard. I watched several play mistakes that prolly could have gotten him to a 4-2 record. I think he was inexperienced on what to take from a Solidarity players hand with duress. He had 3 Duresses, and took combo pieces instead of the heavy card draw it needed to actually go off, the he took a Force over Wish or Draw. He prolly didnt realize how important hand size was, cuz when he doesn't Force it prolly means he needs the other blue cards more than the counterspell.

morgan_coke

04-23-2007, 03:31 AM

I haven't seen the madness list myself, but I'm guessing it was based on the g/b list played by McKeown last year to a 5-1 record. For reference, that list:

(also referenced because I didn't see the list/variant in the first post)

Artifact Creatures
1 Masticore

Creatures
3 Arrogant Wurm
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Birds Of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Krovikan Horror
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Wall Of Roots
4 Wild Mongrel

Enchantments
4 Survival Of The Fittest

Legendary Creatures
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress

Basic Lands
7 Forest

Lands
4 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Legendary Lands
4 Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard
1 Bone Shredder
2 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Spike Feeder
2 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Hail Storm
2 Hideous Laughter

It's a strong and viable alternative to controllish survival builds and a very good deck that I think deserves more attention than it is currently getting.

The list above is pretty old (november '05) so some updating to it is definitely in order, but overall, its got a lot of potential.

MattH

04-23-2007, 07:51 PM

Why would a madness list not run at least one Zombie Infestation?

Zach Tartell

04-30-2007, 02:57 PM

Why do people run spike feeder over Baloth or Heiararch? It seems to me that a 4/4 body with +4 life > a 2/2 body that can give +2/+2 for :4:.

Tacosnape

04-30-2007, 03:06 PM

Ok, I don't do this very often (post that is), but I do have to ask about utilizing three of the slots in any number of the survival builds listed at the beginning of this thread to be filled with Caller of the Claw, Saffi Eriksdotter, and Crypt champion. Now, builds have been running caller for a while, and Crypt/Saffi is decent on her own against things like deed (Saffi saving Witness is the bee's knees). With Champion you can survival both into the yard, play champion then grab caller eventually and attack with infinate angry bears. This typically can happen on turn 4 with a Rofellos. Naturally it's probably a metagame call for removal heavy enviroments just so that those three aren't useless on your own. Something to think about.

I actually ran this exact little combo when I ran 4 colors (Black-Red-White-Green.) And I highly recommend it. All three of the cards are solid on their own. Crypt Champion can reload a Witness or like, Bone Shredder. Saffi can do amazing things with Flametongue Kavu. And Caller of the Claw's synergy with Cabal Therapy is solid. So even if you don't get the combo going ever, all of the cards aren't dead, which makes it pretty playable.

It's also worth noting that if you get the Crypt Champion in hand, you could always do something ridiculous like Burning Wish for Buried Alive, then Buried Alive for Saffi/Caller/Anger to set up the combo.

EDIT: @Lonelybaritone: Tarnoscape? Lmao. That made my day. Sigged for making me laugh.

MattH

04-30-2007, 11:59 PM

Why do people run spike feeder over Baloth or Heiararch? It seems to me that a 4/4 body with +4 life > a 2/2 body that can give +2/+2 for :4:.

People who have mana trouble, say against goblins, and find 4 mana hard to get to. I was one of them, for a long time.

Mulletus

05-01-2007, 11:23 PM

Why do people run spike feeder over Baloth or Heiararch? It seems to me that a 4/4 body with +4 life > a 2/2 body that can give +2/+2 for :4:.

Never fight a land war in Asia.

iOWN

05-12-2007, 03:26 PM

So. How are people beating Hulk Flash? Hand disruption and Chalice were the general hate cards for Tendrils and Solidarity, but neither can do anything against Flash. Meddling Mage is usually too slow, and most likely will eat Force of Will when it tries to come down. Meddling Mage in a list backed up by Brainstorm and Force of Will might be successful, but most likely have a weak match against aggro (and then what would be the point of playing Survival over Threshold?). Is Leyline of the Void the only answer, and is it enough? Any Survival build other than RGbSA doesn't seem fast and/or disruptive enough to support it. Perhaps it will be worth improving the combo match if aggro isn't a prevalent force at the GP?

:/

outsideangel

05-12-2007, 03:41 PM

juventus

05-12-2007, 05:14 PM

4 leyline of the void
4 tormod's crypt
3 cranial extraction

that is my plan to beat hulk flash. I find duress and cabal therapy to be meh because they can hide stuff on top of their library pretty well. Leyline and crypt are turn 0-1 answers that buy you time to play a bomb like cranial extraction.

I guess I might as well post the list of survival I have been working on to give some sort of context to those cards. This list is basically stolen from Tao.

//Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
6 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

//Creatures
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Eternal Witness
3 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Genesis
1 Krovikan Horror
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Withered Wretch

//Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Recurring Nightmare

//Sideboard

4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Aven Mindcensor

Important Matchups:

Combo

I originally had duress in the main-deck but I took those out because I put them in mainly for Hulk Flash and I found that game one against that deck is a hopeless cause anyways. This does hurt your matchups against other combo like belcher. Post SB the deck has a decent chance of beating kiki-jiki hulk flash with 8 quick answers and then cranial extraction.

Aggro

Goblins game one is about 40-60 in their favor. But there are 4 engineered plagues in the SB to help. I haven't tested against goblins with SB yet.

Other random aggro usually doesn't worry me because they are not explosive enough to deal with swords/deed/wall of blossoms.

Aggro-Control

This deck beats Gro unless it gets mana screwed and almost any other form of aggro-control just through its sheer card advantage.

Control

My opinion on control mirrors is that the games usually drag out for a long time so whichever deck has a better engine for card advantage will win. Genesis + Witness is a fairly strong engine, but I'm sure there are other control decks out there with better ones.

This is a control deck at heart and I wouldn't recommend playing it until Flash is banned when you can just play something like Landstill.

EDIT: I just thought about Aven Mindcensor

Rabbi Dan

05-28-2007, 04:28 AM

I call it Survival Rock. You may also call it Rabbi Rock if it becomes popular! This deck 100% assumes that Flash is going to be banned.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [AP] Llanowar Wastes
8 [IA] Forest (2)
11 [MM] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
1 [CHK] Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [6E] Uktabi Orangutan
1 [7E] Elvish Lyrist

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [7E] Duress
4 [EX] Recurring Nightmare

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Infest
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LG] Ichneumon Druid
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

It runs the disruption core 4xDuress, 4xHymn to Tourach, 4xDiabolic Edict, and 4xSinkhole. It uses recurring nightmare mostly for card advantage with Eternal Witness, Wall of Blossoms, and Duplicant, although it can be used to do a semi-combo kill with Kokusho, the Evening Star.

Card Choices:
Uktabi Orangutan + Elvish Lyrist vs. Viridian Zealot: The biggest hoser for this deck is Chalice for 2. I need to run the sex monkeys to combat it.

Genesis: You never really have enough mana to use this without Rofellos.

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary: Thinking about running this in place of Squee, but haven't tested it yet.

Cabal Therapy: I just prefer duress, and there's not room for both of them.

Deck Matchups
IggyPop: This deck runs enough disruption to beat IggyPop, and post sideboard the game is even better. Ichneumon basically spells game over for the IggyPop player if you can get it into play.
Goblins: Game 1 is pretty much a scoop unless they get a bad draw and you get a great draw. Games 2 and 3 are much better with boarded Engineered Plague and boarded Infest.
HanniFish: Haven't actually played against a HanniFish build yet.
43Land.dec: Recurring Kokusho is your only hope, otherwise Maze of Ith locks you out. Side in Crucible for their land removing lands.
Random Others: I can beat most random decks through card advantage.

Thoughts/questions/comments?

MattH

05-28-2007, 10:32 AM

With only 14 creatures, you're going to get way too many hands without any.

Rabbi Dan

05-28-2007, 11:48 AM

With only 14 creatures, you're going to get way too many hands without any.
In playtesting ~50 random games on MWS, I maybe ran into the problem that I had SotF/Rec in play without the creatures to use them maybe twice. I only need to hit one creature for SotF to work, and I'm generally playing disruption on the first 1-3 turns before I even think about starting with the SotF engine.

A bigger problem I have is the mana base. The lack of duals is because I can't afford them right now, but by all means include them in your decklist.

Brushwagg

05-29-2007, 10:52 PM

@Rabbi Dan:I see a few problems with the deck.

1.A lack of creatures. Survival decks depend on their creatures. You could probaly cut Recurring Nightmare, since I really don't see it being that useful, other then recurring Kokusho. But your missing a second one, so it also can probably go.

2.More creature problems. You have no creatures with good off/def on them. Which will make it really hard to go aggro when you need to. IE when you don't see/have Survival. Right now your deck is worse then old ATS when it didn't see Survival, worse beat down deck ever. A few suggestions, Ravenous Baloth, Blastoderm, hell even Plague Sliver. Just some stuff that lets you beat face. I really see this deck getting crushed by other Survival decks or stuff that has bigger creatures.

3.Lastly you have no removal that can be found with Survival. Since your playing black Bone Shredder comes to mind. It's also pretty good with Genesis too.

With those in mind here we go.

Very rough list

4x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Bayou
2x Taiga
8x Forest
1x Swamp

Spells
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Survival

Creatures
1x Squee
1x Genesis
1x Anger
1x Rofelloes
4x Birds
2x Werebear
3x Dark Confidant
2x Eternal Witness
1x Bone Shredder
2x Flametongue Kavu
3x Ravenous Baloth
3x Mesmeric Fiend
1x Sex Monkey

Edit:You might also want to look at Rootwalla. Good one drop and awesome with Survival.

Needs to be refined, but a good start I think. I added red for Anger since Haste is really good and FTK is also pretty good too. But I didn't make it a dominant color so you could easily cut it for some other stuff. If you do end up cutting Red I would replace one FTK with another Bone Shredder or Biggame Hunter.

@Dark Confidant:He gives you another way to gain card advantage without Survival.

tylerwylie

05-29-2007, 11:45 PM

Zach Tartell

05-30-2007, 01:38 PM

You run Anger yet no Deranged Hermit? I love attacking for 9 I don't know about you. Any reasons for not including the Deranged Hermit?

Hermit's a fun finisher, but I think something like a Mystical Enforcer in a version with white, or just good old efficient 4/4's should do the trick. Price and somer other folks have been running were bear for a while, using him early as a blocker/mana source and late game as a body. With a couple baloths, a stomphowler, two or three FTK's, and a pack of werebears, you shouldn't fret about not having an "oops, I win" play. Hermit also sucks to drop then not pay the echo for, on account of he just leaves you shitty blockers.

Rabbi Dan

05-30-2007, 05:11 PM

1.A lack of creatures. Survival decks depend on their creatures. You could probaly cut Recurring Nightmare, since I really don't see it being that useful, other then recurring Kokusho. But your missing a second one, so it also can probably go.

2.More creature problems. You have no creatures with good off/def on them. Which will make it really hard to go aggro when you need to. IE when you don't see/have Survival. Right now your deck is worse then old ATS when it didn't see Survival, worse beat down deck ever. A few suggestions, Ravenous Baloth, Blastoderm, hell even Plague Sliver. Just some stuff that lets you beat face. I really see this deck getting crushed by other Survival decks or stuff that has bigger creatures.

3.Lastly you have no removal that can be found with Survival. Since your playing black Bone Shredder comes to mind. It's also pretty good with Genesis too.

@Dark Confidant:He gives you another way to gain card advantage without Survival.

1a) Like I said, I really don't seem to have problems drawing a creature to run with survival very often, and if I do its because I drew a ton of disruption early, which is usually just as good.

1b) Recurring Nightmare is the STAR of this deck! It's not used in its semi-traditional role to get huge creatures into play, but as an insane card advantage engine with Eternal Witness/Duplicant/Uktabi. Kokusho is used with this also, but like you said I'd like to squeeze another one in for when I really need the life gain or the kill. I may sub 1 Recurring Nightmare for 1 more Kokusho, but I _really_ want to draw a recurring nightmare when I'm playing this.

2) I do agree with this point, and I wish I had room for 4xRavenous Baloths. This deck evolved from traditional RGSA with 4xRavenous Baloths, but it turns out that with all the card and board advantage this deck generates I generally have the game completely locked down and rarely feel the need to go aggro. On that note however, RGSA is a bad matchup, and I side in Pithing Needle and name SURVIVAL as this deck really doesn't need it to run since it can generate just as much card advantage with recurring nightmare, but it can win versus RGSA if they have no Survival, Survival is Pithed, or Genesis isn't in their graveyard.

3) That's Duplicant's sole purpose. It removes the target from the game permanently, and can target anything, so it's better than shredder/nekrataal, and with the early disruption getting it out with recurring nightmare or even hard casting it is rarely a problem.

I'm already running two fantastic card advantage engines with SotF and recurring nightmare, there's really no room or reason to put in dark confidant.

Another note, I'm thinking about running a 1x searchable Yixilid Jailer to shutdown RGSA's Genesis/Anger and the new Dread Cephalid Life I've seen lately on MWS.

Brushwagg

05-30-2007, 08:26 PM

Rabbi Dan

05-30-2007, 10:03 PM

To answer:

1a. Then why even run it Survival at all. If your not going to maximize it's use then don't bother running it. Right now it does nothing for you.

1b. Again I see no use for Recurring Nightmare, if your not doing something degenerate with it. But if your dead set on using it then I'd look at Symbiotic Wurm.

2.Pithing Needle is alright, except that most Survival decks now a days run just fine without Survival.

3.Duplicant? At 6 mana he's way to slow and only a 1 of. You get to use it once and hope it doesn't get STPed? Add in Genesis and thats 9 mana without a Rofelloes.

Lolled at your first question/statement.

1) Please play test and you'll see how recurring eternal witnesses every turn to cast hymn/duress/sinkhole/edict is a solid game plan, and survival helps to set this up as well as generating card advantage since my first survival is usually for Squee (or double Eternals if I have Recurring Nightmare). And about Symbiotic, that's fine and dandy, but Kokusho has evasion and his goes into graveyard ability is just as much of a game winner. PLUS, he's realistically hard casted.

2) My deck beats RGSA without genesis in the graveyard hands down. No SotF for them pretty much means no genesis in the GY. Pithing needle naming Ravenous Baloth is also a pretty good choice.

3) He's survival searchable, and easily dumped in the GY to be recurring nightmared out over and over again. Six mana isn't that much considering my first 1-4 turns are usually spent playing BoPs and disruption. If they StP him, I have recurring Diabolic Edicts to handle creatures.

Please build and test this deck, you really don't seem to understand how great the synergy of it is. The early game I run disruption, the mid-late game I recur the disruption until I have so much card advantage most people scoop. The late game I can recur kukoshu or win with bears. Maybe my build isn't the best for what I'm trying to do, and I'm exploring some different card options, but it's a great game plan that has been showing really good results.

troopatroop

05-31-2007, 12:04 PM

Lolled at your first question/statement.

1) Please play test and you'll see how recurring eternal witnesses every turn to cast hymn/duress/sinkhole/edict is a solid game plan, and survival helps to set this up as well as generating card advantage since my first survival is usually for Squee (or double Eternals if I have Recurring Nightmare). And about Symbiotic, that's fine and dandy, but Kokusho has evasion and his goes into graveyard ability is just as much of a game winner. PLUS, he's realistically hard casted.

2) My deck beats RGSA without genesis in the graveyard hands down. No SotF for them pretty much means no genesis in the GY. Pithing needle naming Ravenous Baloth is also a pretty good choice.

3) He's survival searchable, and easily dumped in the GY to be recurring nightmared out over and over again. Six mana isn't that much considering my first 1-4 turns are usually spent playing BoPs and disruption. If they StP him, I have recurring Diabolic Edicts to handle creatures.

Please build and test this deck, you really don't seem to understand how great the synergy of it is. The early game I run disruption, the mid-late game I recur the disruption until I have so much card advantage most people scoop. The late game I can recur kukoshu or win with bears. Maybe my build isn't the best for what I'm trying to do, and I'm exploring some different card options, but it's a great game plan that has been showing really good results.

Your post is filled with false representations of reality, which is frowntown when it comes to LMF posts. When responding to critisism one must never disengage the person attacking you for whatever reason. Even if he has never played Survival, (which I know for a fact he has) Trying to squash his credibility only chips at your own. If his arguments are so hard to answer, that your answers turn into attacks against that person, you've already lost.

Saying...

1) Please play test and you'll see how recurring eternal witnesses every turn to cast hymn/duress/sinkhole/edict is a solid game plan

Um... Not really

What decks is this strategy viable against? Solidarity and MWC? Fish Maybe? This very mana intensive idea is quite cool, but as always, There's Danger in Cool Things. Any viable deck choice will have already lost or won once it gets to this point. Getting this much time with Survival is a winning situation with any number of strategies. Your particular point about using Survival to set up this CA Lock, is moot, because any other version of Survival could set up just as strong of a position, if not better, with what's currently at their disposal.(Ie RGSA)

Rabbi Dan

05-31-2007, 03:49 PM

@troopatroop

You're right, but it sure seemed like I was the one being attacked first, and he told me not to run a cheap reusable tutor that doesn't lose you card advantage. I didn't even know how to respond to it.

The goal of the deck is to force the opponent into the mid-late game with black disruption, instead of just hoping to get there like other survival builds.

I'm getting the feeling that my deck isn't what other people consider to be a survival deck, and I guess it really isn't as the game winner is Recurring Nightmare and early black disruption, not survival. That being said, I won't post in this thread anymore about my build.

Tacosnape

05-31-2007, 07:26 PM

You know, I'd just like to say that this whole incorrect notion of "Survival decks run just fine nowadays without a Survival" that like a thousand people have posted on one Survival thread or another is complete utter pig hooey.

They run, but not just fine. What they run like is what they are without a Survival: Below-average aggro-control decks.

Can you win without a Survival? Sure you can. Burning Wish sometimes wins games on its own, as do back to back Flametongue Kavus or Bird-Duress-Therapy combos.

This doesn't mean, however, that if you shut off Survival you haven't put most Survival decks in a world of hurt. Pithing Needle is an effective card to stop Survival decks, as long as they can't just Survival up an answer to it in response. Just because it doesn't automatically win the game for :1: doesn't mean it doesn't put you in a far better position.

My current Survival deck is named "The Curve," because it curves out incredibly well when it doesn't have a Survival and puts immense pressure on my opponents. That said, it's far more vulnerable if it doesn't get a Survival on the board. In fact, this is a large part of why Duress and Therapy work so well in this deck; clearing away answers so we can play the Survival. It's also why we maindeck four Witnesses instead of one or two. Being able to get back Survival.

It's not an absolute necessity to get a Survival out, but it's a huge difference. If you think your opponent going first and going land, Needle Survival isn't a problem you need to deal with, you need to stop deluding yourself.

shteev

06-02-2007, 11:29 AM

1) Please play test and you'll see how recurring eternal witnesses every turn to cast hymn/duress/sinkhole/edict is a solid game plan

Um... Not really

What decks is this strategy viable against? Solidarity and MWC? Fish Maybe? This very mana intensive idea is quite cool, but as always, There's Danger in Cool Things. Any viable deck choice will have already lost or won once it gets to this point. Getting this much time with Survival is a winning situation with any number of strategies. Your particular point about using Survival to set up this CA Lock, is moot, because any other version of Survival could set up just as strong of a position, if not better, with what's currently at their disposal.(Ie RGSA)

I disagree that any viable deck choice will have won before recurring Therapies gets on the go. Consider this perfectly reasonable startup:

Turn 1 - Cabal Therapy
Turn 2 - Survival of the Fittest
Turn 3 - Search for a Witness, and have 2 mana left over for other plays.
Turn 4 - Play Witness, return and cast Therapy
Turn 5 - Search for a Witness, return and cast Therapy

Turns 1 and 2 are solid plays, not 'setup', and thereafter we dont have to commit ourselves to this strategy if we don't want to, it's merely available.

Recurring anything that costs more than one mana, tho, is a different story... especially spells that cost BB.

Mulletus

06-06-2007, 11:41 AM

Turn 1 - Cabal Therapy
Turn 2 - Survival of the Fittest
Turn 3 - Search for a Witness, and have 2 mana left over for other plays.
Turn 4 - Play Witness, return and cast Therapy
Turn 5 - Search for a Witness, return and cast Therapy

Wow, as a long time Survival player, I would love to go five turns strait without missing a land drop. It just doesnt happen. More importantly, what are you naming with therapy three times? I have found that a deck that I need to make discard stuff against has brainstorm to hide stuff, or casts the stuff I saw turn one before turn four.

thefreakaccident

06-06-2007, 07:18 PM

I would have to agree with mul. survival never sees a five land hand, and if it does it is probably going back... I used to play survival from time to time, and land drops never came every turn (you run creatures that produce mana, so you can run a low land count).. personally I ran 18 lands, but that's just me.

troopatroop

06-06-2007, 08:27 PM

Turn 1 - Cabal Therapy
Turn 2 - Survival of the Fittest
Turn 3 - Search for a Witness, and have 2 mana left over for other plays.
Turn 4 - Play Witness, return and cast Therapy
Turn 5 - Search for a Witness, return and cast Therapy

That play sequence is pretty bad regardless, and hopefully thats not optimal. You've done nothing at all to pressure the BOARD. You could have gotten, Rofellos+Ranger+Masticore or something and blown their board to all hell. How is reccurring discard better than stabilizing the board with an active survival and boatloads of mana? Even if it was good, the whole "Take this example" argument is lame because it assumed that you have a perfect combination of cards.

If you're not setting up Squee and Anger with Survival as well, I don't think you have any idea what you're doing.

nightshade81

06-06-2007, 11:01 PM

I designed a version of Survival that has the potential to work optimally (yes I know the meaning of the word) without resolving a Survival. I know this sounds very strange and it is. Although this list has no hope of beating combo it does however slaughter pretty much every thing else.

22 Lands:
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Mountain
3x Taiga
3x Tranquil Thicket
2x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

5 One-of-Creatures:
1x Anger
1x Eternal Witness
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Genesis
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

14 Other Creatures:
3x Arrogant Wurm
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Squee, Goblin Nabob
4x Wild Mongrel

19 Spells:
4x Burning Wish
3x Life from the Loam
2x Nostalgic Dreams
4x Survival of the Fittest
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Zombie Infestation

SB: (Uncompleted)
1x Hull Breach
1x Life from the Loam
1x Nostalgic Dreams
1x Sickening Dreams
?1x Devastating Dreams (Double R)?
?1x Sylvan Scrying (Need Wasteland that much? Could add one Gaea's Cradle too, don’t like 4cc land search.)

Cards that could be included:
Viridian Zealot
Terravore
Devastating Dreams
Krovikan Horror
Deranged Hermit/Other Kill
Masticore
Many others…

I built this deck in one day and did limited play testing. But results that I have had have been amazing. This is nowhere near an optimized list and have made 3 changes to the deck since beginning to write this post.

It works better without a Survival then any Survival variant I have ever seen. But it contrast it is significantly less powerful then standard Survival with one active.

A anti-combo version (a deck with at least a hope) of the deck would be like:

-2 Umezawa's Jitte
-2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
-1 Wild Mongrel
-2 Nostalgic Dreams
+4 Duress
+3 Cabal Therapy
+ mana base changes

Although I love Squee in this deck so much. It has really good synergy with Wild Mongrel, Nostalgic Dreams, Zombie Infestation, Umezawa's Jitte, and can even be dredged off a Life from the Loam. A single drawn Squee and Zombie Infestation can win games.

I have no plans of developing the deck further since currently most my attention is entwined in building/testing various combo decks. So if anyone wants to pick this up have fun.

Edit: List, just a little

thefreakaccident

06-06-2007, 11:05 PM

you do realize that you are only running 20 creatures right? 6 of which are terrible without the survival... I am not sure if this would be an optimal strategy overall.

the lowest creature count I have ever ran in a survival deck was 24, and that was a little low.

shteev

06-07-2007, 01:34 PM

Turn 1 - Cabal Therapy
Turn 2 - Survival of the Fittest
Turn 3 - Search for a Witness, and have 2 mana left over for other plays.
Turn 4 - Play Witness, return and cast Therapy
Turn 5 - Search for a Witness, return and cast Therapy

You're right, of course, not missing a land drop by turn 5 is unusual. (One reason for this is that many survival builds don't run enough land, as this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13746.html) suggests). However, you are running mana acceleration creatures... usually 4, and often 8. Dropping a Birds of Paradise Turn 1, or a Wall of Roots or Sakura Tribe Elder on turn 2, or SEARCHING for any of these, or a Rofellos turn 3 and casting it allows you to cast just as many copies of Cabal Therapy as the sequence I've laid out.

You're making it sound like having access to 5 mana on turn 5 is ludicrous, and I don't think it is.

Furthermore, I don't think there's anything lame about 'take this example'. My example features a Survival of the Fittest, a Cabal Therapy, and some mana... that's not a perfect hand, especially since I'm using the example to demonstrate the synergy between the 2 cards (in a deck that has Eternal Witnesses in it). If I'd put a Witness in my start hand, I'd have granted you the point.

I laid out a sequence of play to demonstrate how quickly the 'combo' can come into play.... and also that you're not COMITTED to playing like that, should Rofellos+Anger+Masticore be a better option for you. You've haven't wasted turns 1 and 2 setting up the combo... you'd have cast the same 2 spells if you wanted to bring out the big guns.

However, I completely take your point about the central issue of doing this... why would you want to? In exactly what circumstances is it the best play? Myself, I'm not convinced it ever is, but I'd say this much: what ELSE are you going to do against combo?

Mulletus

06-07-2007, 03:36 PM

what ELSE are you going to do against combo?

I psuedo-aggressivly mulligan for opening hand discard in game one. Or possibly Burning Wish if I know the exact combo. Then I sideboard accordingly and mad-man mulligan if it's a deck I know I can't race.

iOWN

06-07-2007, 03:59 PM

the lowest creature count I have ever ran in a survival deck was 24, and that was a little low.

Survival is aggro-control, but it always leans a little either towards aggro or control. His deck seems more like a control strategy, using Loam + Zombie Infestation, which helps hit enough land drops, provides CA, and gives you beaters/blockers. Burning Wish is the general control card which can fetch answers and sweepers, and then the deck would finish with efficient creatures. I personally only run 21 creatures and I'm fine with it.

@nightshade: You should try out Dryad Arbor. I'm serious. That would allow you to replace your draw with dredge, getting back lands and a creature, so you can still have something to pitch to Survival. Arbor would also fill the role of Squee, because Loaming it continuously will supply you with all the creatures you need.

Cait_Sith

06-07-2007, 08:23 PM

You're making it sound like having access to 5 mana on turn 5 is ludicrous, and I don't think it is.

It isn't. Not having access to 5 mana on turn 5 is suspicious. Having access to five LANDS turn 5 is something Thresh and Wombat have trouble doing despite running a large cantrip shell. Honestly, if running RecSur (which I do from time to time) I have a singleton of Kokusho, Yosei, and Symbiotic Wurm. One of these popping to Recurring is huge and can immediately alter the game state in my favor.

Dryad Arbor seems like a great as a singleton just because it is tutorable by survival and a source of green mana (And I can sac her to Recurring)

Tacosnape

06-08-2007, 02:50 AM

Dryad Arbor seems like a great as a singleton just because it is tutorable by survival and a source of green mana (And I can sac her to Recurring)

Bolded, Italicized, Underlined, Giant Growthed, and Lifelaced for emphasis.

Abandon this plan. You will come to hate it between a week and a month from now based on how often you play. I went through a brief week-long scrub phase where I was trying to stick Dryad Arbor in just about anything playing green. What I learned is that it sucks in Vial Goblins and it sucks in Survival. In fact, rumor has it that the entire article "The Danger of Cool Things" has been replaced with the words "Dryad Arbor."

Cait_Sith

06-09-2007, 11:50 AM

I never really bothered testing it simply because I have never wanted for Green mana. Black and white yes, at time, but never green. The simple fact it was a super waste-able only made it less desirable.

On the topic of RecSur, would anyone mind giving me some advice on my list? Right now the creatures, lands, and spells are an even 20/20/20 split, so I should probably find some better creatures to run, see where I can cut a creature. I am thinking -1 Deed and -1 Rec and +1 Protean Hulk and +1 Rector. Maybe exchange Duress for Therapy.

This list:

// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Bayou
3 [A] Savannah
7 [RAV] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 [EX] Spike Weaver
1 [UD] Masticore
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 [CHK] Yosei, the Morning Star
3 [TSB] Wall of Roots
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
1 [CHK] Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot

// Spells
3 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [US] Duress
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

Hulk is great if Rec is in play simply because it is massive and can fetch any dudes I need and put the directly into play. If Rec isn't in play, he becomes a much more iffy card.

Team-Hero

06-11-2007, 12:59 AM

Yosei, Kokusho, and Spike Weaver seem a bit redundant because they all act as "keep me alive" cards with RecSur. I assure you that you only need either Yosei or Kokusho; not both. Instead, cut two of those three creatures and add an extra Hierarch and Eternal Witness.

Masticore... great card but very fragile. If you cast him, make sure you have 2 mana open or else expect something to kill him. Regardless of his 4/4 body, he's fragile. Against goblins you risk them landing a TinStreet or a Pithing Needle. Any other matchup, Masticore is just par in value (with the exception of Fish). I'd much rather use the extra Hierarch or Windborn Muse for the Goblin matchup instead of Spike Weaver or Masticore. I would also add a Marauding Knight for pro white just incase you run into someone with heavy white on his side.

Tog

06-11-2007, 01:26 AM

I've been experimenting with SotF for a long time and I ran in to an interesting deck the other day. I thought it might be worth mentioning. It can potentially run along the lines of RecSur without the Recurring Nightmare.

This card is from the Portal Set. Look it up.

Loyal Retainer 2W

Sacrifice Loyal Retainer: Return target Legend creature card (i.e. Akroma) from your graveyard to play. Play this ability only during your turn before combat.

It provides with a fast finish. Just a thought.

Tacosnape

06-12-2007, 07:06 PM

Okay, so I couldn't help but notice that a lot of (not all, but a lot of) RGB and RGBW Survival builds are running black without running a single black creature. Black is existing strictly for Duress, Therapy, Engineered Plague, and the occasional wish target like Chainer's Edict.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with Duress, Therapy, or Plague, which are arguably three of the five strongest black cards in Legacy. But this has led me to consider trying out a RGW build. Anyone got an experience with this?

I'm running into three major questions:

1. What are my options for RGW Survival dealing with Goblins in the middle to late game without Plague?

2. What are my most versatile options for dealing with combo, and how many should I run?

3. What are the advantages and disadvantages in RGW of running a Burning Wish Toolbox, an Enlightened Tutor Toolbox, and neither one?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

iOWN

06-12-2007, 09:35 PM

1. What are my options for RGW Survival dealing with Goblins in the middle to late game without Plague?

2. What are my most versatile options for dealing with combo, and how many should I run?

3. What are the advantages and disadvantages in RGW of running a Burning Wish Toolbox, an Enlightened Tutor Toolbox, and neither one?

1. If anything I would say RGW would have a better matchup against Goblins than RGB. You may lose plague, but you can still run a Burning Wish board with sweepers that answer almost every possible situation. Goblin Pyromancer is an option, but it forces you to make room for an extremely narrow card (although it's great with Genesis and will allow you to gain board advantage). Fire Imp is a strong 2-for-1 that comes out relatively early (turn 2). Loxodon Hierarch is an amazing creature that should replace any other kind of fat (like Ravenous Baloth), as it stalls for you and provides a body which tops most other creatures. Replace Birds with Llanowar Elves because it can trade with other creatures and consider Nimble Mongoose because Mogg Fanatic wrecks your early game. Lastly, Umezawa's Jitte can be extremely helpful against Goblins (I'm sure you already knew this :P).

2. Chalice of the Void. 4. Green, Red, and White are the worst colors for dealing with combo (in that order) so you are kind of iffy here. Splashing Blue for Meddling Mage is probably necessary in a meta with more combo than Goblins, but it may be workable with Chalices and a few Glowriders.

3. Burning Wish gives you access to board sweepers. Pyroclasm is great. Other sweepers are probably needed. Survival recovers better from them better than most aggro decks. Enlightened Tutor on the other hand lets you run Solitary Confinement! Confinement is the greatest card ever, and it lets you win games that you should straight-out lose.

06-12-2007, 10:15 PM

1. If anything I would say RGW would have a better matchup against Goblins than RGB. You may lose plague, but you can still run a Burning Wish board with sweepers that answer almost every possible situation. Goblin Pyromancer is an option, but it forces you to make room for an extremely narrow card (although it's great with Genesis and will allow you to gain board advantage). Fire Imp is a strong 2-for-1 that comes out relatively early (turn 2). Loxodon Hierarch is an amazing creature that should replace any other kind of fat (like Ravenous Baloth), as it stalls for you and provides a body which tops most other creatures. Replace Birds with Llanowar Elves because it can trade with other creatures and consider Nimble Mongoose because Mogg Fanatic wrecks your early game. Lastly, Umezawa's Jitte can be extremely helpful against Goblins (I'm sure you already knew this :P

Did you honestly forget to mention Swords to Plowshares? That should be be an automatic 4x over the Duress or Cabal Therapy slot. Goblin Pyromancer as you mentioned is very narrow, but it's great as a sideboard card. Being able to tutor a Wrath of God is ridiculous against the deck because 99% of Goblins players will overextend into it.

2. Chalice of the Void. 4. Green, Red, and White are the worst colors for dealing with combo (in that order) so you are kind of iffy here. Splashing Blue for Meddling Mage is probably necessary in a meta with more combo than Goblins, but it may be workable with Chalices and a few Glowriders

Pyrostatic Pillar should also be mentioned as it is the best anti-combo card red has. White also has Rule of Law, Orim's Chant, and Glowrider, as mentioned. Glowrider should actually be maindecked considering Survival's poor combo matchup.

3. Burning Wish gives you access to board sweepers. Pyroclasm is great. Other sweepers are probably needed. Survival recovers better from them better than most aggro decks. Enlightened Tutor on the other hand lets you run Solitary Confinement! Confinement is the greatest card ever, and it lets you win games that you should straight-out lose.

Although I traditionally believe Enlightened Tutor is rather weak considering my past use with it in ATS (although at first it was a godsend, but after a while it was a hazard), I think it could possibly be decent in here, but I'm not sure if it's better than Burning Wish. However, white doesn't offer many new options for Burning Wish. The best ones are like..Armageddon, Cleansing Meditation...Replenish, Tivadar's Crusade, Sunlance, and some other crap. The problem with E Tutor is the only bullet worth getting in the maindeck is Survival as you don't want to clutter the rest of the maindeck with useless crap against other matchups (with the possible exception being Solitary Confinement as a singleton). That leaves you to put the rest in the sideboard, such as additional Confinement, Worship, Absolute Law, etc. I think one of the big things about Enlightened Tutor in a deck like this is the fact that the best combo hate you can get are all artifacts/enchantments. It would at least allow you to find your hate so you don't outright lose the game.

Tog

06-12-2007, 11:12 PM

The problem with E Tutor is the only bullet worth getting in the maindeck is Survival as you don't want to clutter the rest of the maindeck with useless crap against other matchups (with the possible exception being Solitary Confinement as a singleton). That leaves you to put the rest in the sideboard, such as additional Confinement, Worship, Absolute Law, etc. I think one of the big things about Enlightened Tutor in a deck like this is the fact that the best combo hate you can get are all artifacts/enchantments. It would at least allow you to find your hate so you don't outright lose the game.

This is one of the problems with most Survival builds. Often times, all the tutors are competing for targets in the deck. It perpetuates the problem of consistency without opening hand Survival. It asks for even more singletons and Survival already has a hard enough time with winning random cards which may or may not be relevant. Burning Wish has the same problem as Enlightened Tutor as it competes for Survival targets in the board for games two and three. Unfortunately, no solutions here. Just helping to point out the obvious.

MattH

06-13-2007, 01:01 AM

RGW survival can use something like Dueling Grounds (as a 1-of for Enlightened Tutor) or Ghostly Prison (as a 4-of for builds without ETutor) which happen to be good against both goblins and half of combo (the Empty the Warrens half).

Nothing Survival can do about Belcher kills, I'm afraid. You're just going to have to lose to that one, unless you run black AND get a turn.

Tendrils can be fought with Glowrider and Chalice and Rule of Law, as mentioned. Also Pillar to some degree.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 01:43 AM

I'm obviously already running the 4 Swords to Plowshares, have no fear.

The thing about Burning Wish is that without black, I lose two of my favorite targets for it: Chainer's Edict and Cabal Therapy.

Enlightened Tutor lets me run Pithing Needle, Solitary Confinement, Chalice of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, a singleton Jitte, and so forth, as well as being a way to dig for Survivals.

Running neither one, on the other hand, allows me to have an entire board full of hate for Goblins and Combo, my worst matchups. This would likely include Chalice of the Void, Sandstorm, Tormod's Crypt, and...something else. Pithing Needle? ...Serenity? Iunno. I always find I need mass destruction cards in Survival. I find it really strange how Survival absolutely slaughters balanced decks and absolutely falls apart to single-minded ones.

The other problem I run into is that RGW sucks at 1-drops. The Duress and Therapy slots are all 1CC, and it's hard to find decent replacements for that.

AngryTroll

06-13-2007, 01:51 AM

If you get a turn, which you should in game two, you can drop Pithing Needle to deal with Charbelcher, and you can Burning Wish for Pyroclasm or one of the one mana Golbin Token killers to deal with Empty the Warrens.

CRET Belcher is a real problem for the deck, because if you lose the die role, there might be nothing you can do games one and three. Side in those Engineered Plagues, and mull to them or Burning Wishes and Pithing Needles. Bad times.

I think that the 1 mana disruption, in the form of Duress and Therapy, are probably better then the 3 mana Glowrider or Ghostly Prison. It is nice to be able to tutor up a Glowrider, but you can tutor up a Mesmeric Fiend for one less mana. I think that black offers better Goblins hate and better combo hate then white, but I could be wrong, as I have not tested a white splash.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 01:57 AM

I personally think both Mesmeric Fiend and Glowrider are garbage. They're both too slow and not worth the slot. I believe all combo hate has to be playable by turn 1 if you don't run Force of Will or other quick things backing it up.

Sandstorm is the only card I've found in green that immediately improves both Goblins and several combo matches. The problem quickly becomes that there are too many combo decks and not enough slots for ways to hate on them. You need Pithing Needle for Belcher, Chalice for storm combo, Sandstorm for Empty the Warrens, and something for slower combo decks like Solidarity.

06-13-2007, 02:46 AM

Nothing Survival can do about Belcher kills, I'm afraid. You're just going to have to lose to that one, unless you run black AND get a turn.

You can't run Pithing Needle or Null Rod?

Running neither one, on the other hand, allows me to have an entire board full of hate for Goblins and Combo, my worst matchups. This would likely include Chalice of the Void, Sandstorm, Tormod's Crypt, and...something else. Pithing Needle? ...Serenity? Iunno. I always find I need mass destruction cards in Survival. I find it really strange how Survival absolutely slaughters balanced decks and absolutely falls apart to single-minded ones.

The other problem I run into is that RGW sucks at 1-drops. The Duress and Therapy slots are all 1CC, and it's hard to find decent replacements for that.

If you are running a GRW build in the first place, regardless of Burning Wish or Enlightened Tutor being in the deck, you should have a maindeck tuned to Goblins. I personally believe that it is absolutely mandatory in today's metagame to run a creature besides Birds of Paradise/Llanowar Elves in the 1cc slot if you want any decent chance at blocking Goblin Lackey. It shocks me how I see lists of RGBSA and the like running no such cards and just outright lose to a Goblin Lackey on the draw. There are really only a few good targets to deal with it; most namely Nimble Mongoose, Tinder Wall, Mogg Fanatic, Kird Ape, and Basking Rootwalla. Fanatic and Kird Ape are rather poor choices though due to not being in the primary color, but if you run a 4 Taiga 6-7 fetch build then technically it is acceptable. I prefer Tinder Wall myself over the others just on principle that it can accelerate 4cc men by turn 2, and also color fixes for red without a Taiga in play. That said, you should have at the very least 8 sources to deal with Goblin Lackey on the draw (1cc man + StP. You could technically make this 11-12 if you run Nimble Mongoose over the Werebear slot and a different 1cc creature). Between them, and a full set of Flametongue Kavu and Loxodon, the matchup becomes much better.

Now regarding the sideboard, assuming you do in fact take my advance for the maindeck, that frees up a lot of the sideboard for the combo matchup, which is far worse than Goblins. Technically, the Goblins matchup isn't as bad as it's made out to be. It is unfavorable, but no worse than 40-60. I think this is where people underestimate Survival. While Goblins is indeed broken, people often neglect the fact that Survival will chain FTK turn after turn and 2-for-1 the Goblins player until they overwhelm them with larger creatures. The real test for the matchup lies within turns 1-3 with very few factors:

- Can you deal with Goblin Lackey?
- Can you deal with Wasteland?
- Do you have Survival in hand?

If at least 2/3 of those issues are solved with your opening hand, you shouldn't be losing the game.

Now to actually address the sideboard as I seemed to go off on a Goblins rant again, with more space you can limit yourself to only 2-3 Goblins slots, and open up 7-10 for combo. I personally dislike Sandstorm because it is limited, but it seems to be a decent choice for the time being against Goblin Lackey and Empty the Warrens. However if you do use the 8-12 answer suite, Lackey isn't as much an issue. And if that is the case, then Engineered Explosives is strictly superior to Sandstorm. Plus, it would fulfill your desire for a sweeper in the deck, and an efficient one at that. Although it'll most likely hit your own cards as well, it works well enough that you can use it more for your gain than loss. I personally dislike Tormod's Crypt as combo hate, and would rather use something to stop the majority of the deck, such as Rule of Law or Null Rod. Plus, given that you run white, Jotun Grunt is superior graveyard hate in the form of a tutorable beatstick. Then you'd have the other 4-5 sideboard slots for whatever random shit you can think of. Usually I have these kind of slots act as Krosan Grip or something, Idk.

Now, if you take it the other direction with either Burning Wish or Enlightened Tutor, it makes your maindeck a bit more flexible at the cost of making your sideboard and combo matchup shittier (theoretically). In a GRW build, I find it rather hard to justify running Burning Wish because there black was incredibly strong with it. Of course there were the RGSA lists running it, but I think it's weakened with the addition of another color that adds so much to the deck. Enlightened Tutor is also meh because of the temptation of adding bad cards to the maindeck (which is a giant no!) but forces you to add bad cards to the sideboard. However, you could easily do some stupid things with it like search up Worship against Goblins with a Nimble Mongoose or something in play and win from there, but eh, I honestly think the deck would be better off without either of them and focusing more on their weak matchup strategies. I think a problem people have with designing these decks is that they are blinded by the ideas of adding more consistency and flexibility to the deck while not realizing it isn't making their bad matchups any better, but in fact worse. While people are adding those 4 Burning Wish to the deck, they could easily be 4 cards that fight combo rather than having something that will fetch Pyroclasm half. of the time and Hull Breach the other half.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 03:14 AM

All of that makes sense. I was leaning towards using neither toolbox if I could get away with it. There's no point in having a deck that loses to both Goblins and combo.

How would you personally go about tuning said RGW Survival deck to beat Goblins? I already have the FTK's and Loxodons set. I currently have four to five slots to play with, with no Burning Wishes, Enlightened Tutors, or 1-drops beyond STP and Fanatic in place as of yet.

EDIT: I should Clarify a bit more. This is the shell I'm working with right now:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Werebear
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Eternal Witness
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Loaming Shaman
4 ?????

SB:
15 ????

06-13-2007, 03:35 AM

I was initially not going to post this since I just threw it in my team boards, but I really like the list and figured I might as well get some public criticism on it. It really has no problem dealing with Goblin Lackey or Wasteland, and I think will be able to handle Goblins just fine.

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Loxodon Heirarch
1 Mystic Enforcer
2 Eternal Witness

4 Flametongue Kavu
1 Masticore
1 Glowrider
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Orcish Settlers

4 Tinder Wall
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
3 Savannah
1 Mountain
5 Forest

Sideboard: (Note that I just whipped this board up and is by no means absolute/good)
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Glowrider
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Pithing Needle (Survival, Wasteland, Jitte, etc)
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Null Rod
4 Orim's Chant

Card choices:

Nimble Mongoose: I switched Werebear back to him for a few reasons. Primarily, it block Goblin Lackey. Secondarily, you're already running a lot of beaters (FTK, Pope, Enforcer, Masticore, Grunt) so I felt this was optimal in going down to the 1cc.

Mystic Enforcer: I was originally against anything like this for a long time. This was until I had by face beaten by it in Survival mirrors played by Brushwagg. It may seem random, but the ability to tutor a monster like Mystic Enforcer for cheap makes him an incredibly powerful finisher. He's easily better than the 4th Loxodon.

Tinder Wall: I'm not taking any chances losing to Goblin Lackey. He survives Fanatic and Incincerator. Plus he is incredibly acceleration in the deck. Does anyone object to turn 2 Loxodon Hierarch?

Harmonic Sliver: Eh, this could be Tin-Street, but I figured for one more you can do something in the mirror. Plus, I hate Indrik Stomphowler he's ridiculously expensive and I find it retarded to waste 2 slots on enchantment/artifact removal.

Glowrider: You don't like him and I really don't either, but the deck needs some form of combo hate in the maindeck that you can use with Survival. Unfortunately this happens to be the best option. At least you can get him down turn 2 fairly easily.

Masticore: The deck lacks any way of dealing with pro-red men outside of StP, so he was necessary. He also happens to be retardedly good.

Quirion Ranger: Because I felt the deck needed Masticore, he automaticall made his way back in the deck.

Orchish Settlers: With adding Quirion Ranger back into the deck, there's no reason not to run this guy. Getting 9 mana around turn 4 isn't all that uncommon with Rofellos, and you're free to completely win the game with Settlers by nuking all their lands. This guy is nuts.

Jotun Grunt: It does counteract the threshold of Mongoose and Enforcer, but generally if I'm tutoring and casting Grunt, he'll be taking the opponent's yard and they will be dead by the time I lose threshold. Plus, I prefer the 4/4 body to the 3/2 body of Loaming Shaman.

Sideboard:

I heavily geared this for the combo match.

Orim's Chant: Stops TES and Belcher cold. The fastest answer we have.

Null Rod: Stops TES and Belcher cold, or at least buys enough time to find other answers. Can be played turn 1 with Tinder Wall.

Engineered Explosives: For Empty the Warrens. Kills Pithing Needle too. Also randomly happens to be pretty damn good as a removal spell if you play smart with it like a good Magic player.

Pyromancer: I love him as a bullet-WoG. If he resolves you win the game.

Grunt: Additional utility against control, Threshold, etc.

Glowrider: Additional utility against combo. I'm disliking him but there really isn't a better creature for the anti-combo slot.

Harmonic/Tin-Street: This depends on what is run in the maindeck. If it's a Harmonic, this slot can be anything. If it's Tin-Street, then this slot goes to Harmonic.

Pithing Needle: I had 2 extra slots, this is random. This can be anything as well. At least it hits some problem cards.

With some more tweaking to it, I might actually favor this over E!GBRUATSA2K7 for the next large Legacy tournament. It's got a rock-solid maindeck and with some sideboard work it can be really good.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 04:00 AM

Pretty neat. I can only think of two things I dislike off the top of my head.

1. Jotun Grunt seems really bizarre, especially in a deck with Threshold creatures. Plus he can die before he gets his graveyard effect, and is outside of the primary color.

2. I still don't like the Glowrider. I don't think his presence makes enough of a difference to be worthwhile considering we have to dig him up and get him out all before dying with no disruption to back it up.

I really like some of the tech like Orcish Settlers and Masticore though, and the board seems pretty solid in the hate department.

06-13-2007, 03:28 PM

1. Jotun Grunt seems really bizarre, especially in a deck with Threshold creatures. Plus he can die before he gets his graveyard effect, and is outside of the primary color.

I mentioned in my Jotun Grunt reasoning the contradiction of running him with threshold creatures. However I think you might possibly be misunderstanding the role of both the threshold creatures and Jotun Grunt. First, Nimble Mongoose's threshold is more or less a non-issue to me. It's priority is to block Goblin Lackey, and if it manages to become a 3/3 that's a plus. However there are more than enough beaters in the deck that it can live without thresh. Enforcer is a bit different, but if you're at the point with both Grunt and Enforcer in play, you should be winning the game.

Grunt's main role is graveyard hate. It doesn't do it as fast as Loaming Shaman, but it is cheaper and it is bigger. The body size matters in a deck whose primary gameplan is aggro. It isn't a creature you're going to tutor up for any old reason, that's what Loxodon Hierarch and friends are for.

2. I still don't like the Glowrider. I don't think his presence makes enough of a difference to be worthwhile considering we have to dig him up and get him out all before dying with no disruption to back it up.

On second thought I too have come to the conclusion that a single Glowrider in the maindeck isn't worth the trouble as by the time it sees play you most likely have already lost the game. I have replaced this slot with Magus of the Moon, which Bigbear reminded me of. How I forgot about Magus is completely beyond me, seeing how it's one of the best cards for Survival printed in a while. This also forces the deck to adopt a basic Plains which I personally don't like, but is necessary so you still have access to white mana.

Xero

06-13-2007, 03:39 PM

Have you tested Aven Mindcensor? It comes down the same turn as Glowrider, and it would help against combo and the mirror.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 05:28 PM

Have you tested Aven Mindcensor? It comes down the same turn as Glowrider

You just answered your own question.

3 mana combo solutions, even in a deck packing Birds of Paradise, are too slow when they're your absolute cheapest solution. You still aren't going to win game 1 with that single Aven Mindcensor in your deck. But you will lose the occasional non-combo game 1 because it's in your deck.

I think RGW Survival sort of has to take the attitude that it's going to just suck up game 1 combo losses and come out swinging ridiculously hard in games 2 and 3.

Di, what exactly are your thoughts on Lightning Bolt (Or even Firebolt), if the deck had a higher Witness count to make it more versatile?

06-13-2007, 10:10 PM

Di, what exactly are your thoughts on Lightning Bolt (Or even Firebolt), if the deck had a higher Witness count to make it more versatile?

I think Lightning Bolt is trash in here for the same reasons (sort of) that it is trash in Goblins. Sure, it will up your first turn removal count, which is a plus against Goblin Lackey. But outside that it's meh. The deck runs a high amount of beatsticks that the 3 damage will make that large of a difference. You run a full set of FTK as creature removal already. It doesn't do anything to help the deck's primary strategy (Survival), or even secondary strategy (bad creature beatdown). It's merely a limited removal spell. Swords to Plowshares is awesome because it will hit every creature regardless of size and color. It hits creatures before FTK can come online, and hits the ones that FTK can't kill. Lightning Bolt doesn't offer that kind of luxury. If I were to run anything in the ballpark of Bolt, the first card I would look at would be Mogg Fanatic. It at least attacks and pitches to Survival, and still fulfills the role of Lackey blocker.

Brushwagg

06-13-2007, 10:24 PM

Well Since GWR Survival is being talked about I'll dust off my list. It really hasn't changed.

Molotov Cocktail:

Lands
2x Tropical Island
4x Savannah
4x Taiga
4x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath

Spells
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Aether Vial

Critters
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Werebear
1x Rofelloes
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Squee
2x Glowrider
2x Meddling Mage
1x Keldon Vandals
2x Eternal Witness
4x Basking Rootwalla
3x Loxodon Hierarch
3x Flametongue Kavu
1x Mystic Enforcer

SB:
2x Meddling Mage
3x Rule of Law
10x Other stuff. Haven't put back since the last time I played it.

What I really tried to do here is to give myself a alright game 1 against a vast range of decks and then SB in the cards for the deck I'm playing. I usally run Masticore, Pyromancer and Sporefrog for Goblins. Rule of Law the other 2 Mages and maybe Frog for TES and Belcher. Loaming Shaman for Gro.

@Lightning Bolt:I have to agree with Di here. I tested it out and STP is do much better. If you looking at more 1cc stuff to stop Joblins I would look at a creatures. Tinderwall, Rootwalla, and Goose are pretty solid options. I also tested Kird and found it to be junk also.

@Glowrider:This is pretty much your best option Combo MD. While it does nothing for you until turn 2, but if you make it that far it's gold. However I do run Meddling Mage also to help out.

Illissius

06-13-2007, 10:41 PM

Tinder Wall is awesome. I'm glad people are catching on.

What about Thornscape Battlemage instead of Flametongues?

+ shoots artifacts (needle, vial, jitte, etc)
+ doesn't require a target
(+ can target players and Silver Knight)
- only deals two
- only two power

On first appraisal, it seems better against Goblins (the size difference doesn't appear to matter, as either one will just trade with a Goblin), better against Landstill, combo (not that it matters), and other creatureless decks, and worse against Threshold and other decks using creatures with a toughness greater than two.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 11:49 PM

meh @ thornscape battlemage. If I was going to play without Flametongue Kavus, I'd just pick a different deck. I could see it maybe replacing T.S. Hooligan, but that's about it.

MattH

06-14-2007, 07:16 PM

I didn't mention Rod or Needle because if the opponent is winnign via Belcher, they're probably winning on their turn 1. Even fi they win on their second turn, you have to have drawn your Needle, and therefore don't have time to E.Tutor for it.

Null Rod at 2cc is just plain too slow.

Wild idea, off the top of my head, justtossingthisoneoutthere,thinkingoutloudhere,takeitorleaveit: RGx Survival, maindeck Clasms, use x/3s and bigger.

You can still use cheap mana accelerators:Tinder Walls, Wall of Roots, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Aether Vial all care not even a little bit about Clasm. You don't need too many guys if you can survive (heh) to make it to 4-5 mana and be dropping Hierarchs and shit. You can still have early plays via Tarmogoyf and...oh something else probably exists.

Clasm is good against both Goblins and ETW. Not so good against Threshold (terrible?). Good against Black Aggro. Atrocious against control and non-ETW combo.

Just a thought.

Tacosnape

06-15-2007, 01:34 AM

06-15-2007, 01:47 AM

That idea sort of reminds me of a BGR Survival deck I played against on MWS once that ran Burning Wish and Brand. It tended to Survival up obnoxious shit like Hunted Horror, Hunted Troll and Varchild's War Riders, then backed it up with 3 Brand, 3 Pyroclasm, and 4 Burning Wish. Maindecked the discard, too. Pretty ridiculous when it worked.

Pretty atrocious when it didn't work, I'd imagine. :)

I didn't mention Rod or Needle because if the opponent is winnign via Belcher, they're probably winning on their turn 1. Even fi they win on their second turn, you have to have drawn your Needle, and therefore don't have time to E.Tutor for it.

Null Rod at 2cc is just plain too slow.

Now you completely overestimate the speed of these decks. These combo decks do not win turn 1-2 every game. Yes they are very consistent and fast, but you will not lose turn 2 every single game. Odds are, they will win turn 1-2 40% tops, and that's pushing it. I've tested against TES more than a majority of the people on this board, and I've gotten [b]Arcane Lab[b] down on a number of occasions, and that's a 3cc spell. As a 2cc spell, Null Rod is fine because it completely hoses the opponent, and is castable turn 1 off Tinder Wall. One of the problems people have with these combo decks currently is that they are overrating them due to their recent exposure with Flash. Fuck, before Flash came onto the scene, people weren't fearing these combo decks as much as they are now for some reason. It's like people have adopted the mentality that the combo decks in the format are as broken as Flash, which simply isn't true. I'll agree Empty the Warrens is broken and the combo decks are very good, but please don't make them more than what they really are.

MattH

06-15-2007, 05:23 PM

Now you completely overestimate the speed of these decks. These combo decks do not win turn 1-2 every game. Yes they are very consistent and fast, but you will not lose turn 2 every single game. Odds are, they will win turn 1-2 40% tops, and that's pushing it.

1. I based everything I said off of testing against CRET Belcher, and the issue at hand was whether Rod and Needle are too slow to stop Belcher (they do 'slightly less' and 'nothing', respectively, against TES). The TES results do not interest me as much, but yes, obviously you have more time there.

2. Any hand that CRET keeps IS going to 'go off' turn 1 or 2 - if not, they should probably not have kept the hand. There are three 'disruption plans' at issue here: turn 2 Null Rod, turn 1 Needle, and Enlightened Tutor->Needle, which is a turn 2 play.

You'll have a turn or two against the ETW plan to play Clasm or whatever, but if you kept a Null Rod hand and they go ETW, your artifact - pardon the joke - "does nothing."

Here is what has to happen to make Rod useful. After assuming you drew Rod/Enlightened Tutor and two lands (because otherwise there's nothing to discuss), the following still needs to happen:
-you're going second AND the opponent is going for a Belcher kill AND didn't win on turn one OR turn two
-you're going first AND the opponent is going for a Belcher kill AND didn't win on turn one

And THEN you STILL have to win before they can recover with a large ETW swarm, or a possible Wish->Spree->Belch. The gripping hand is that both "turn 2" plays - Rod and Tutor'd Needle - are not going to be very effective against Belcher.

Now T1 Needle is definitely better but it's still only effective in some of the games where you even manage to get to it in time. Sometimes the opponent wins on turn 1, and (the biggest obstacle by far), sometimes they simply aren't going for the Belcher plan.

One problem is that there really aren't very many cards that are good against turn 1-2 ETW, turn 1 Belcher, and turn 3 Tendrils. Any one of them is easily defeated but together they put a lot of different pressures on a deck to answer them.

3. Card evaluations can't be made in a vacuum, and every Rod or Needle you sideboard is a slot that isn't going to other matchups. It's generally not worth valuable SB slots to turn a 10% matchup into a 30% matchup; you're better off dedicating those slots to other matchups and employing the "hoping defense." Now of course Needle and Rod are not as narrow as all that, but you understand what I'm getting at.

06-16-2007, 12:26 AM

1. I based everything I said off of testing against CRET Belcher, and the issue at hand was whether Rod and Needle are too slow to stop Belcher (they do 'slightly less' and 'nothing', respectively, against TES). The TES results do not interest me as much, but yes, obviously you have more time there.

Just to note, but I can't help but take a grain of salt to this argument. Coming from a player who tests against the creator of the deck on a regular basis, I'd say Null Rod does a lot more than one would believe against the deck. Cutting them off from half of their acceleration grants you at least 2-3 turns to find more hate to back yourself up. It also severly limits them from retarded Empty the Warrens by restricting them to the point where you can possibly deal with them, and also stops them from completely going off as it would require 3 Ritual effects to generate any type of large advantage. Cutting off LED almost entirely stops them from using Infernal Tutor as well. Now, back to the Null Rod v. Belcher/TES argument. Aside from Goblin Charbelcher, both Belcher and TES run the exact same artifact base, and a similar manabase otherwise. Limiting them to only Ritual effects and XSG (which don't add storm), the opposing deck is much more capable of handling them. Obviously it doesn't make it a matchup swing, but for how powerful the effect is and its casting cost, it's worth the play.

I mean, what other cards are you honestly going to find that cost <=2 that shut down a deck's primary win condition as well as half of their manabase?

Card evaluations can't be made in a vacuum, and every Rod or Needle you sideboard is a slot that isn't going to other matchups. It's generally not worth valuable SB slots to turn a 10% matchup into a 30% matchup; you're better off dedicating those slots to other matchups and employing the "hoping defense." Now of course Needle and Rod are not as narrow as all that, but you understand what I'm getting at.

But that's the thing; Rod and Needle are good in a lot of matchups. Rod is obviously the lesser, but it's solid against combo, and is auto-win against Affinity. It also shuts off all equipment in decks like Faerie Stompy and the like. The uses of Needle don't need to be named as we are all aware of everything it shuts down.

It generally isn't worth using sideboard slots that turn a 10% matchup into a 30% matchup when you are using slots that are completely useless in every other matchup(e.g. Gaea's Blessing v. Solidarity). I understand what you're getting at, but considering combo matchups are the only things that are really holding Survival decks back (Goblins is not the case, as it is a winnable matchup), how would you not be obligated to dedicate an appropriate number of slots to make the deck winnable against combo? It's like saying, "Don't fix what is broken" and almost applies the same mentality I recall hi-val using a while back about not even bothering playing the deck if it has bad matchups like this, which completely negates the idea of everything that we do in the first place.

Tacosnape

06-16-2007, 03:13 AM

I ended up keeping Black in the deck after all, for what it's worth.

A note on Null Rod? While its inclusion may be under debate in RGW, it's pretty solid in the 4-color build. It's easy to cast and follows Duress and Therapy, which -do- buy you enough time to cast the Null Rod. It helps against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, and Storm Combo, all of which range from "Occasionally Tricky" to "Oh Fuck not that" for Survival.

Oh, and, out of curiosity, since I haven't tested this yet, anyone know if Null Rod's any good at all against Stax? I can't see where it would be outside of shutting down the Mox Diamonds. I could probably figure this out for myself if I wasn't insanely sleepy.

06-16-2007, 04:21 AM

I ended up keeping Black in the deck after all, for what it's worth.

Would you mind elaborating as to why you went back? Coming from someone who ran a heavy-black Survival list (although 4c), I'm very impressed with white so far. It offers you a lot of good stuff not seen in black. However, it's really a wierd debate. Running black gives you an obvious superior combo matchup compared to white, but running white gives you a better Goblins matchup (Engineered Plague aside, white gives you StP and Loxodon Hierarch, which sticks after it gains life). I guess you could go either way, but I'm just really loving this whole white splash thing right now (because it gives me a reason to run my amazing altered StPs)

Oh, and, out of curiosity, since I haven't tested this yet, anyone know if Null Rod's any good at all against Stax? I can't see where it would be outside of shutting down the Mox Diamonds. I could probably figure this out for myself if I wasn't insanely sleepy.

Um, you could Null Rod.....yeah I got nothing. Too bad the deck is trash anyway, not to mention it should be a good matchup regardless. You run an incredibly high amount of cheap permanents compared to the rest of the format not to mention the acceleration so you should be able to win through them easily. I mean, Survival decks were beating the hell out of Welder Mud with Metalworker and Workshop. There's no reason it should be different now.

sammiel

06-16-2007, 10:05 AM

Null Rod does nothing to stax. I wouldn't call the deck trash, but I certainly don't want to see survival when I sit down. Rofellos tends to get around alot of the mana-taxing problems, but post-board suppression fields can make it alot worse.

Stax is rare enough that I wouldn't worry too much about it, the key is to develop your mana without over-extending into a bad armageddon, and to put the game away quickly. You do have multiple permanents, but a magus + geddon will change that pretty quickly.

Cait_Sith

06-16-2007, 10:42 AM

Null Rod does nothing to stax. I wouldn't call the deck trash, but I certainly don't want to see survival when I sit down. Rofellos tends to get around alot of the mana-taxing problems, but post-board suppression fields can make it alot worse.

Null Rod only affects their Moxen (in the more common builds, I've seen odder things in Mono-Brown Stax). It can slow them down by a turn or two, but if the drop a Smokestack you have bigger problems.

Stax is rare enough that I wouldn't worry too much about it, the key is to develop your mana without over-extending into a bad armageddon, and to put the game away quickly. You do have multiple permanents, but a magus + geddon will change that pretty quickly.

I've actually be working on ways to deal with the fact that Prison tends to fair poorly against Survival (cards like Trinisphere and Chalice hurt non-storm based combo far less than it does storm based). I am curious as to how Cursed Totem would work. Being able to shut of Rofellos, BoP, Wall of Roots, Tinder Wall, and then any other dudes running activated abilities seems like it could be a strong play.

MattH

06-16-2007, 11:56 AM

Just to note, but I can't help but take a grain of salt to this argument. Coming from a player who tests against the creator of the deck on a regular basis, I'd say Null Rod does a lot more than one would believe against the deck. Cutting them off from half of their acceleration grants you at least 2-3 turns to find more hate to back yourself up. It also severly limits them from retarded Empty the Warrens by restricting them to the point where you can possibly deal with them, and also stops them from completely going off as it would require 3 Ritual effects to generate any type of large advantage. Cutting off LED almost entirely stops them from using Infernal Tutor as well.
You've misread what I said. I said Rod does less against TES than it does against Belcher - not that it does little. It is clearly awesome to resolve against both; the question is, how often can you do that? I also said Needle does nothing against TES. I did not say that Rod is bad against TES, only that TES is (slightly) less reliant on its artifacts than Belcher. Both are obviously heavily reliant on them.

I mean, what other cards are you honestly going to find that cost <=2 that shut down a deck's primary win condition as well as half of their manabase?
This is exactly my point - that when Null Rod is your fastest answer, and it is too slow, then combo is too fast to beat, because there aren't any faster options. Since it is my opinion that Rod (in Survival) is too slow to reliably stop CRET from winning, I think it is essentially an unwinnable matchup.

how would you not be obligated to dedicate an appropriate number of slots to make the deck winnable against combo?
Against combo in general I think GRW Survival has a number of options, although none quite as good as offered by blue or black. Against CRET specifically I think it has none, because that deck really is a turn 1 combo deck, and GRW Survival has no* answers that come online that fast.

*Or rather, too few - Needle on the play (and possibly Root Maze), nothing on the draw. Assuming you're running 4 Needles - which is way more than anyone has advocated, AFAICT - you can answer their combo:

(% you are on the play) x (% you draw Needle) x (% they're going for Belcher and not ETW)

which is 0.5 x 0.4 x 0.33 = about 15-20% of the time. There are a lot of assumptions and rounding in those estimates but it gives you an idea of how hopeless that matchup is. If you're running fewer Needles, it's even worse.

Against other forms of combo, like TES or Iggy Pop, your options widen to include Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, even 3cc things like Glowrider.

Tacosnape

06-16-2007, 01:14 PM

Would you mind elaborating as to why you went back? Coming from someone who ran a heavy-black Survival list (although 4c), I'm very impressed with white so far. It offers you a lot of good stuff not seen in black. However, it's really a wierd debate. Running black gives you an obvious superior combo matchup compared to white, but running white gives you a better Goblins matchup (Engineered Plague aside, white gives you StP and Loxodon Hierarch, which sticks after it gains life). I guess you could go either way, but I'm just really loving this whole white splash thing right now (because it gives me a reason to run my amazing altered StPs)

I went back to Black for four main reasons.

1. Black drastically improved the number of times I resolved an opening-hand Survival. Duress and Therapy got rid of Daze, Force of Will, or other Duresses and Therapies. Backed up with Eternal Witness, if I got a Survival, I was generally set.

2. My silver bullets like TS Hooligan (Or in your case, Harmonic Sliver) seemed to have a ton more strength when Duress and Cabal Therapy were keeping them from doing double and triple duty all by themselves.

3. While I have much love for Mongoose, Duress and Therapy are incredibly important as being all-purposely awesome 1-drops.

4. I hate combo decks. I realized this when I realize every deck I own in real life has blue or black or both in it (Survival, Stark Black, Goblins, and Landstill all have Black, and Landstill, Solidarity, and Faerie Stompy have blue.)

06-16-2007, 03:21 PM

I've actually also gone back to E!GBRUATSA2K7 (EATS), at least for the time being. As much as I like that GBW list, I'm finding there's one huge problem with it: the curve. The deck goes from like 1,2, and then there's a huge chunk of creatures that are 4cc. In order to do anything with that deck, you need to have either Rofellos or 4 lands in play, and generally Goblins will be able to disrupt either one of those.

1. Black drastically improved the number of times I resolved an opening-hand Survival. Duress and Therapy got rid of Daze, Force of Will, or other Duresses and Therapies. Backed up with Eternal Witness, if I got a Survival, I was generally set.

I also came to the conclusion Black was better because it also helps the control matchup as well. Being able to get out a counter or WoG or something is huge. Plus, yeah, the combo matchup is pretty big.

3. While I have much love for Mongoose, Duress and Therapy are incredibly important as being all-purposely awesome 1-drops.

I would still be running Mongoose over Werebear now. You NEED a good number of slots in order to consistently block Goblin Lackey, and I'm assuming you aren't running Tinder Wall anyway.

Tacosnape

06-17-2007, 05:28 AM

I would still be running Mongoose over Werebear now. You NEED a good number of slots in order to consistently block Goblin Lackey, and I'm assuming you aren't running Tinder Wall anyway.

Don't forget, I'm the nutbar who runs Sandstorm in sideboard due to his insane hatred of Empty the Warrens. I haven't actually lost to Goblins at all postboard yet, thanks to Plague, Sandstorm, and a single basic forest combining for amazing tech. And I also run a single Nova Cleric in board for Enchantress who comes in here and makes a fair makeshift Lackey blocker. Or did once, rather.

06-17-2007, 02:27 PM

Don't forget, I'm the nutbar who runs Sandstorm in sideboard due to his insane hatred of Empty the Warrens. I haven't actually lost to Goblins at all postboard yet, thanks to Plague, Sandstorm, and a single basic forest combining for amazing tech. And I also run a single Nova Cleric in board for Enchantress who comes in here and makes a fair makeshift Lackey blocker. Or did once, rather.

Those are sideboard cards. I don't think it's worth the risk to basically scoop to the game 1 to a first turn Lackey and then hope for the best postboard. You can't adopt the same type of strategy that the deck has for combo matchups that it does for Goblins, because Goblins is a much more popular deck and is also winnable granted you can control Goblin Lackey. Just because you have answers to them postboard doesn't necessarily mean you're going to win the game, so I think it's worth maximizing your efforts in game 1 so you can atleast have a better chance should the match go to game 3.

Unfortunately, that idea can't be taken for combo matches as all the cards being boarded in generally suck outside of them.

06-23-2007, 11:48 PM

For some reason this discussion has died down a bit, so I'm going to ask something that I don't believe has been discussed here yet (or at least not to my knowledge):

How many of you have been running/testing Tarmogoyf in Survival?

I personally didn't get around trying it until recently. While reading TMD, I came across Matt's Survival build that sports a full set of Tarmogoyf, among other interesting slots (4 Fanatic being one, but that's neither here nor there). After reading it, I felt it was an obvious upgrade to Werebear, which has now pretty much become a norm in Survival builds. I didn't give Matt's list a test drive, but I did fuck around with some slots in my existing Survival builds, most namely EATS and RGBSA, to get him into the deck.

So far, my results have been rather mixed. I really like the fact that I can play him turn 2 and he will be around a 2/3 or maybe 3/4 and start beating. However, I don't ever see him getting any larger than that very often. Therapy is normally flashed back, and Survivals getting killed are the #1 Witness target. However, I see him being weaker than a threshed Werebear half the time. If you're distorting the deck to accustom Tarmogoyf, you're probably using inferior cards and doing danger of cool things. The times where it would be a 4/5+ aren't common enough really I think to warrant his inclusion, but it depends on the deck. For instance when I tried him in ATS he was a bit better due to the presence of Brainstorm, something that a RGB build wouldn't be able to do (white has StP).

Still, I'm not sure. He's something great, and he's sometimes not great. So, what have you guys discovered so far?

MattH

06-24-2007, 12:47 AM

I gave up on that deck, FWIW. It was okay, but it had to jump through too many hoops to get positive goblins and Gro matchups. It might be worth trying out with a more red-focused build, possibly with Burning Wish. Specifically, a redder deck could run Martyr of Ashes, which would be amazing in the goblins matchup as a survival-able and genesis-able Pyroclasm. Tarmogoyf might work well there, since it will usually live through a 2-point Martyr, and Survival decks in general are not lacking for x/3s or bigger they can run.

I would imagine it would use Tinder Wall and Vial as its accelerants. Possibly Wall of Roots or Sakura-Tribe Elder, but not elves or birds.

That said, I don't foresee such a deck being really swell at this time, because of all the different pressures Survival is having put on it. We're now looking at cards that want many card types while Survival itself only really wants creatures in the deck, and cards that want lots of red while Survival itself wants lots of green. Further complicating matters is that there are precious few creature-based ways of killing an opposing Tarmogoyf - Bone Shredder comes to mind as the only splashable one, but there's not much else (Loaming Shaman?). Goyf often being 4/5 means it will live through an FTK, which is SUPER bad.

If they print a bunch of Gruul-colored creatures which don't suck, maybe we could see a resurgence. Until then, I can't see Survival having much success in larger tournaments unless it's a very metagame-specific one.

thefreakaccident

07-12-2007, 08:11 PM

so, I have a 3 color ATS build, and was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions. I have wasteland going around like crazy right now, so I do not want to have 4 colors.

the build and please feel free to critique, that's why I am posting it; just remember I want to keep the color scheme.

lands//19
4 taiga
4 tropical island
4 wooded foothills
3 winswept heath
4 forest

creatures// 26
4 tradewind rider
4 birds of paradise
3 quirion ranger
3 wall of roots
1 anger
1 genesis
1 squee, goblin naboob
1 refellos, Lianwar Emissary
1 masticore
1 gilded drake
1 ravenous baloth
2 eternal witness
3 flametoungue kavu

spells//15
4 force of will
3 mana leak
4 brainstorm
4 survival of the fittest

sideboard// (a little messy)
3 goblin pyromancer
4 Icheneumon druid (could be something else though)
4 back to basics (rapes landstill and thresh, wiith little effect on us)
4 krosan grip (maybe tinstreet or zealot, since they can be fetched for)

troopatroop

07-12-2007, 08:20 PM

so, I have a 3 color ATS build, and was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions. I have wasteland going around like crazy right now, so I do not want to have 4 colors.

my build and please feel free to critique, that's why I am posting it; just remember I want to keep the color scheme.

lands//19
4 taiga
4 tropical island
4 wooded foothills
3 winswept heath
4 forest

creatures// 26
4 tradewind rider
4 birds of paradise
3 quirion ranger
3 wall of roots
1 anger
1 genesis
1 squee, goblin naboob
1 masticore
1 gilded drake
1 ravenous baloth
2 eternal witness
3 flametoungue kavu

spells//15
4 force of will
3 mana leak
4 brainstorm
4 survival of the fittest

sideboard// (a little messy)
3 goblin pyromancer
4 Icheneumon druid (could be something else though)
4 back to basics (rapes landstill and thresh, wiith little effect on us)
4 krosan grip (maybe tinstreet or zealot, since they can be fetched for)

sigh

You're not playing Rofellos. I'm praying to god that's a typo. He's one of the single most important cards in the deck. Cut a ranger for him. I would also cut a single Wall of Roots for a Seedborn Muse. He gives you the lock with Tradewind, and it mucho important. He basically wins the game with Rofellos or Tradewind and Survival.

I'm not really sure about mana leak. I would rather play Stifle right now... or maybe Daze... Stifle answers the threat of turn 1 ETW which you have no outs for currently.

I don't think I can even touch the sideboard. Just metagame accordingly. BEBs, Stifles, B2B, Sandstorm, Arcane lab, Choke, Krosan Grip, Pyromancer is staple but only as a 1 of, Sharpshooter, Hooligan, Needles. Any combination of those according to your needs would do.

thefreakaccident

07-12-2007, 08:43 PM

it was a typo, sorry about that.

well, I personally do not like mana leak either, but I feel the need for countermagic in the deck, and 4 FoW wouldn't seem like it would cut it. Seedborn muse is good, but I do not think it would be all that great since it only has synergy with rider (I guess it could be pretty awesome in that case).

thanks for the advice, keep it commin'

what about 4 stifle in the side board? (in place of the druid?)

I like stifle, but with only 26 creatures (7 of which are 1 ofs), I would not want to cut creatures, and the spells I am running currently seem realy good as of right now.

I will test stifle in mana leaks spot though.

Nydaeli

07-12-2007, 08:50 PM

3 color ATS build

You run 16 blue spells, which is pretty much the bare minimum for FoW. I'm not sure what else you could run to bring that up, but it's a problem which should probably be addressed somehow.

Werebear is probably better than Wall of Roots.

thefreakaccident

07-12-2007, 08:56 PM

well, 5 of those blue cards can be fetched for with survival; I used to play mystic snake in the third wall slot, but it wasn't worth it (maybe in the drake slot, even though it is teh hotness with goyfs running around). this build only ever runs into threshold with a live survival, and wall can be used on both your turn and your opponents' turn; which is good with survival.

You can usually hard cast FoW on and after turn 4, which is still pretty good most of the time.

what would you propose in oreder to raise the blue count without messing up the deck?

would you really consider dropping creatures?

07-13-2007, 01:39 AM

Wow, it looks like a list that was used prior to the list separation. That's insane. Now with that said, let's dissect what you have.

First off, the main issue with the deck is that it is heavily influenced by the lists of old. That is a problem because the metagame was a much different place back then than it is now. In order to properly construct ATS, or really any Survival deck for that matter, you need to follow three strict guidelines that adhere to the current metagame:

1. The deck must have a means of dealing with Goblin Lackey consistently on the draw. It must also be able to handle the rest of the deck to a degree.

2. The deck must have a means to at least give a fighting effort against combo post-board. Game 1 won't ever be great because you can't afford to clutter the maindeck with cards solely for combo decks. That is why we have a sideboard.

3. Most importantly, the deck must have game without Survival. If your Survival deck does not function well without a Survival in play, you can expect to be seen in the 0-2 bracket.

Let's take this step-by-step regarding your decklist.

1. Your list features a very poor means of dealing with Goblin Lackey, with its sole blockers being Birds of Paradise and Quirion Ranger on the draw, both of which get easily picked off by Fanatic and Incinerator, and of course Force of Will. A problem that recent Survival players have done when designing their decks are a serious lack of 1-drops. Their lists are weak against Lackey, and suffer from lack of speed by not being able to do anything until like turn 3 or so. That said, it's important you maximize the number of first-turn plays to give yourself a better game not just against Goblins, but a handful of decks. My personal list contains both Nimble Mongoose and Tinder Wall (just to note, I run a total of 20 1-drops in my list), because I don't want to fall behind due to a Goblin Lackey. I won't post the list due to Kadi's being so close, but it can be PM'd to those who would like it. Regarding the rest of the deck, a glaring problem I see you might have with them is your curve goes very heavy into 4 mana. Against a deck with Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and removal for the mana accel critters, I find it rather difficult to consistently get up to 4 mana. I would rethink your creature suite and adjust the curve if you wish to have a better game against Goblins.

2. Game 1 isn't your fault. Granted, you do have countermagic which is certainly a huge advantage over the other Survival builds, but it's still rough. Your current sideboard doesn't do much of anything against combo at all. Ichneumon Druid is ok against Solidarity, but chances are he will be Remanded or Forced. For your sideboard, I'd definetely be looking at Null Rod and Stifle, and then probably Engineered Explosives or Sandstorm. A combination of those are terrific aginst any EtW-based combo deck, and Stifle also happens to be incredibly good against Goblins. Actually, Stifle is probably better than Mana Leak given its wide variety of uses. The loss of black hurts because you lose the discard, but with your counters you should be ok.

3. This is the biggest issue I have with your decklist. The main problem is you are overexamining the power of Tradewind Rider in today's metagame. He is not something you can place as the focus point in the deck, because decks today can operate under very few permanents and lands (Threshold, combo, etc). However, he is still an excellent utility creature, which is the only reason I still run him (but as a 1-of). Many people compare Tradewind Rider to cards like FTK, and those who argue in favor of FTK are wrong. No, Tradewind doesn't attack for four, but it can manascrew an opponent in the early game, constantly hold back big threats like Exalted Angel, Mystic Enforcer, or *Tarmogoyf*, and it also deals with every other permanent, as well as saving your own. But despite all that, it's best use is solely for a secondary utility role and nothing more. However, if you still wish to power the deck off Tradewind Rider, you'll need at least Seedborn Muse to break it.

That said, there really isn't much else going for your list without Survival in play. The best (most logical) means of play without Survival is aggro. As you'll notice most lists run Werebear for this sole reason, and now Tarmogoyf is popping up as well. The deck needs to be able to put pressure on the opponent and it can really only do so by killing them. There needs to be something supplementing FTK, Masticore, and Ravenous Baloth in your deck because nothing else is going to be making much of an impact. That's where the beaters come in.

Now, just to recap what I've said in case you glazed over that:

- Add 1-drop creatures capable of handling Goblins.

- Look at stronger sideboard options for combo matchups. Also look at Pithing Needle (Wasteland), among other things to metagame accordingly. 3 Goblin Pyromancer is way too many. He's a bullet for Survival, and should be a 1-of.

- Try to fit in creatures that make the deck not suck without Survival. There needs to be some sort of aggro aspect of the deck because it can't survive in it's current control form.

Feel free to PM me for my list, I think you can take a great deal from it. Obviously I'm still running a 4c version, but you can easily make adjustments accordingly.

AngryTroll

07-13-2007, 03:25 AM

This is a pretty simple thing, especially after Diablos' post, but isn't Loxodon Heirarch going to be better than Baloth? The color is a bit harder, but they both gain four life, and Heirarch can be bounced by Tradewind in a pinch, and the regeneration could come in useful occasionally.

Edit: Duh, Windswept Heath is the G/W fetch, Savannah is the G/W dual. I guess I was thinking of the OLD ATS lists that ran white and read it as the dual.

Silthyn

07-13-2007, 05:29 AM

This is a pretty simple thing, especially after Diablos' post, but isn't Loxodon Heirarch going to be better than Baloth? The color is a bit harder, but they both gain four life, and Heirarch can be bounced by Tradewind in a pinch, and the regeneration could come in useful occasionally.

If you run G/W, then you would almost always want the Loxodon, for the reasons you already stated.

thefreakaccident

07-14-2007, 04:31 AM

so, although Janky; I found an old list of my teams'... has some similarities to what you guys have been suggesting, so maybe we can work it out?

my old (and by old I mean very old) list is:

lands//18
4 taiga
4 tropical island
2 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
3 forest
1 mountain

creatures// 25
1 tinstreet hooligan
3 tradewind rider
3 quirion ranger
4 birds of paradise
1 anger
1 squee
1 genesis
3 Flametoungue kavu
1 man o' war
1 refollos, Lianwar emissary
1 masticore
3 eternal witness
1 ravenous baloth
2 werebear

spells// 17
4 survival of the fittest
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 stifle
2 lightning bolt

I couldn't find the lists, so I posted a rough one from another site... I was hopeing to discover a reasonably good list from you guys, but now we have a much better base to stem from... I would love to get some suggestions from the community to help this 3c build progress.

too long have I heard this deck was nothing but hype!

BreathWeapon

07-14-2007, 05:25 PM

Have other people considered Survival and Dreadnought yet?

4 Force of Will
4 Meddling Mage
4 Stifle
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Wall of Roots
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Force of Will, Meddling Mage, Stifle, Enlightened Tutor for Engineered Explosives, a two turn clock and SB Trickbinds give Survival/Dreadnought an overwhelming game against combo, and the deck's threat density gives it a good game against aggro-control and control. There are some minor problems against Goblins, where Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator and Wasteland can disrupt Volrath's Shapeshifter and Tin-Street Hooligan can remove the Dreadnought, but the deck has such a large compliment of disruption that it's difficult for the opponent to eliminate the threat, let alone get their own game plan started. SBing in Trickbind takes the pressure off of Volrath's Shapeshifter and gives the deck more disruption against aggro, which seems to be a recurring theme against Goblins and Zoo.

The deck is just so redundant, it can either win the game with the mana acceleration of Birds of Paradise and Wall of Roots and the card advantage of Survival of the Fittest and Squee, Goblin Nabob or just assemble a Dreadnought with Stifle, Volrath's Shapeshifter and Enlightened Tutor. The mana base is speculative, because it's based in blue and not green to support Meddling Mage, but with four Wall of Roots that doesn't seem to be a serious issue for Survival of the Fittest.

The SB is wide open for a transformation into a pseudo ATS deck and it can bring in the Genesis and Spore Frog Lock and Tarmogoyf against aggro, Jotun Grunts against aggro-control and Survival based bullets, Gigapede or an alternate Volrath's Shapeshifter target if you feel like it (Akroma + Phage combo etc).

I tried fiddling around with Aether Vial, but reducing the creature count was unacceptable and Aether Vial felt completely unnecessary.

It is more or less a Vengeur Mask deck with black being cut for White and Stifle replacing the Masks, but it seems solid so far. You certainly don't have to worry about your combo match up any more, and Survival alone usually wins the aggro-control and control match up. That more or less leaves Goblins to worry about, and they usually get overrun by Trickbind/Stifle and Dreadnought while the rest of the creatures block their waves of little green men.

I didn't bother splashing for Anger, but it's worth a shot, and I avoided non Squee, Goblin Nabob singletons for Survival like the plague. If Survival is online, you're going to win, so using it as toolbox when the opponent should be hellbent on stopping it is counter productive

Jak

07-14-2007, 05:49 PM

I have thought of that, but just didn't find a good list for it. I like yours a lot though. Have you considered adding red for anger?

Tacosnape

07-14-2007, 06:23 PM

BreathWeapon

07-14-2007, 07:50 PM

It's pointless to argue over the the "initial" Survival post when Survival and Dreadnought can be found in either Vintage Vengeur Mask or Legacy Full English Breakfast. Survival was the first shell I (and probably any one else who played those decks before) started with as soon as the errata was announced.

The Pandemonium and Greater Good shells don't address the actual issues for the Survival shells, because neither of them use Dreadnought as an additional threat or address the combo match up. FEB with Phyrexian Dreadnought and Stifle seems more promising than the other options I've seen so far at converging the Survival and Dreadnought shells, because it's 1/3+ more redundant and doesn't fold to combo. I'm not convinced it's the best shell for Dreadnought, but it's the precedented shell for Dreadnought.

@Jak, I considered it, but I didn't test it. I wasn't certain how to construct a manabase for a non base green deck with Survival, so I figured adding red for Anger was stretching it too thin. If some one more proficient at designing mana bases figures out how to do 4 colors, then cutting the MD Engineered Explosives for Anger seems reasonable to me. I try to stay away from relying on Survival as much as possible tho', because you're really a Dreadnought deck with Survival as a back up engine. You can use Volrath's Shapeshifter as an outlet for Anger tho', which is kind of cool.

07-14-2007, 10:44 PM

For those of you who've read my ATS primer, you would know that my inital design of ATS stems from my success with FEB prior to that. I note this only because when I was playing the actual FEB list, not the ATS list from the primer (which you can view here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602)) it was the Dreadnought/Flowstone Hellion version, as Phage wasn't printed until a few months later when I started with ATS. FEB is really what got me to be a good player and was the deck that first gave me big tournament results with. Having played the deck before and knowing it's workings rather intimately, and seeing how you guys are stemming a possible list in that direction, I figured I'd give you what adivce I can give.

- If you're going to build a Dreadnought-based Survival deck, you need to follow it similar to what BreathWeapon has posted (much to by chagrin... :p) Just cut the damn Enlightened Tutor. It was removed from Survival for a reason (it's bad). I ran that for a very long time and it's honestly makes the deck worse. You can definetely find something stronger than this. Anyway, the Stifle build would see the most success because it allows you to play the combo without resorting to using bad cards. The blue-based build at least allows you to make good use out of Dreadnought due to Stifle and Volrath's Shapeshifter. Just put more lands in the deck. 18 lands is incredibly low, even with mana acceleration.

Now, no offense to you Taco, but the whole Pandemonium/Dreadnought/Stonecloaker thing is awful. For times like those, you need to resort to the "Dangers of Cool Things." You're playing a 4-mana enchantment in a deck that doesn't need it. It's not commiting to the combo, but it's 5 slots that the deck certainly doesn't need. In a list like that, you're better off cutting that combo and sticking to a traditional GRW shell.

- For the Volrath's Shapeshifter build of the deck, run a Flowstone Hellion so you can kill the opponent. It might prove to be overkill, but the ability to kill the opponent with Shapeshifter immediately iinstead of 2 turns with a Dreadnought can prove to be useful. Another huge aspect of Flowstone Hellion is the fact that it gives haste on it's own, which would allow you to not bother running Anger for those who've debated it. I think this would be a natural fit in these lists.

I'll add more to this in a bit, I got some stuff to do for now. :-/

BreathWeapon

07-15-2007, 12:07 AM

Enlightened Tutor is more important in Survival/Dreadnought than it is in regular Survival, because it's both Survival of the Fittest and Phyrexian Dreadnoughts 5-8. You can't cut it with out reducing your redundancy and your fundamental turn and increasing your reliance on Survival of the Fittest, and once you do cut Enlightened Tutor, you may as well consider cutting the Meddling Mages to.

You can go with U/g/b for Duress and Dark Confidant, but both of those are ineffectual in comparison to Enlightened Tutor and Meddling Mage and reduce the blue count to 16 (ugh). The one card I'd consider over Enlightened Tutor is Serum Visions/Portent, which has the added benefit of being able to cut a land (and Engineered Explosives) for Akroma/Phage or Flowstone Hellion. You could also go back to using a set of Aether Vials as pseudo Masks and mana sources, but I can't speculate on that with out a lot of testing to see how viable the three card combo is and how useful Aether Vial is with out the combo.

The manabase seems fine, Vengeur Mask ran on 19, four of which were artifacts, and it didn't use Wall of Roots at all. It's rough against Goblins sometimes, but that's a gambit I'm willing to take.

overlord95

07-15-2007, 12:30 AM

"I" added Red for Anger when I made the initial Survival post in the Best Shell for Dreadnought thread (Irritated expression). However, I wasn't actually using Anger with the intent of swinging with the Dreadnought ever. I did it in a Pandemonium shell as opposed to a Volrath's Shapeshifter shell.

The list was this:

4 Taiga
4 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Pandemonium
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Birds of Paradise
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
3 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Eternal Witness
1 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Deranged Hermit
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Stonecloaker

The concept being the abuse of Pandemonium/Dreadnought/Stonecloaker, while not committing to the Dreadnought strategy. It basically goes, You get Survival/Pandemonium out, You dig up Dreadnought/Stonecloaker. You play Dreadnought, you play a Stonecloaker in response to his trigger to bounce him, then you replay him, and you win.

Alternately, you can simply play RWG Survival very effectively. And if you don't get a Survival, you still have the ridiculous Pandemonium / Deranged Hermit combination.Im not really seeing the advantages to playing this particular incarnation of Survival over say Rec sur. Heres a list ive been working on for quit some time with moderate success in my local meta game.
Rec sur:

lands:
1 x Plains
1 x Swamp
8 x Forest
3 x Bayou
3 x Savannah
4 x Windswept Heath
1 x Wooded Foothills

Spells:
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Survival of the Fittest
4 x Cabal Threpy
1 x Recurring Nightmare

Critters:
1 x Triskelion
1 x Palinchron
1 x Academy Rector
1 x Harmonic Sliver
1 x Squee Goblin Nabob
1 x Genesis
1 x Bone Shredder
3 x Eternal Witness
3 x Loxodon Hierarch
3 x Dark Confidant
3 x Birds of Paradise
3 x Werebear
4 x Sakura Tribe Elder (mvp)

SB:
4 x Duress
4 x Engineered Plague
3 x Mesmiric Fiend
1 x Loaming Shaman
3 x Krosan Grip

The deck isnt as combo centric as Nought Survival which gives it the ability to play other rolls more effectively in the given match ups(even at the bare minimum the decks combo pieces are good on there own(with the exception of Palinchron of course)). It plays black which grants it access to much need discard effects in form of Threpy, Duress, and Fiend which I believe is a absolute must in any Survival deck that wants to be competivie in todays meta game.

thefreakaccident

07-15-2007, 01:14 AM

I don't know what everyone else's results have been on this issue, but I will talk (no matter how stupid it may make me seem)...

I have never liked dark confidant in the deck, there; I said it.

whenever I ran him, I would always flip over the singletons like akroma in recsur, or genesis in every build... he is godly when you can clear out the high cc cards via survival, but beyond that I would be taking random 5 damage and 4 damage a turn; such things lost me games that I might not have lost in the first place.

I ran him in EATS (when I played the 4 color version), and I would always end up hitting genesis and anger; then draw into the survival... I am not sure if I am simply unlucky, or you guys are just extremely lucky with the card.

-----

On a completely different subject, on the build I posted a little bit back; lightning bolt or fire/ice?

07-15-2007, 02:10 AM

I don't see what your problem would be. You complain of flipping over Genesis and Anger. How is this any different than flipping over say...Force of Will in any blue-based deck running him? It's not. Yet those players don't complain about that (well, they do, but you know what I mean). There were a lot of Flash builds at GP: Columbus running Dark Confidant in the deck even with 4 Force, 4 Protean Hulk, Karmic Guide, and Kiki-Jiki. Many of those builds didn't even run SDT. Why? Because Dark Confidant is insane card advantage. If you're getting low on life, sacrifice him to Cabal Therapy. Hell, in ATS you had Brainstorm to help that out, the only Survival build that could do so, and yet you still see RGBSA lists popping up with him because he's that good. Plus, a Survival deck should be running life gain. The fact that you can offset the life loss makes it a lot better.

On a completely different subject, on the build I posted a little bit back; lightning bolt or fire/ice?

Neither one is a creature, so no to both. I'm telling ya, go with a creature. Something that can attack, block, pitch to Survival, and be used with Tradewind Rider is 10x better than a single burn spell. Remember, it is a creature-based deck.

@ Overlord

I'm curious with some of your card choices. 3 BoP? It seems rather awkward that you wouldn't want to maximize your chances of leading with turn 1 BoP turn 2 Survival. Have you tried Tarmogoyf over Werebear? Once I tested it I nearly orgasmed and haven't turned back. He makes the deck infinately better. Infinately. You're one of the very few builds, similar to my own, that run the full suite of spell types. Using Tarmogoyf allows you to take full advantage of that. Also, please edit your damn post and put up some capitalizations. I am NOT going to go through that entire thing fixing everything when I know you're being lazy. You know the rules. :)

BreathWeapon

07-15-2007, 04:44 AM

Flowstone Hellion seems to be the nuts so far in testing. I'm going to mess around with Street Wraiths as cantripping Survival fodder, but Survival/Dreadnought appears to be Tier 1/1.5 as it is.

Edit: -1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Flowstone Hellion.

Those Enlightened Tutors can't be cut, because game 2, when Trickbind comes in, the deck wins off of Enlightened Tutor or Dreadnought and Trickbind or Stifle too often to ignore, and game 1, the Birds of Paradise and Wall of Roots feel clumsy with out Survival being the center of the deck (which it definitely should be, since Flowstone Hellion is a double Time Walk for G).

The SB is just Trickbind, Leyline of the Void (I hate Ichorid), an Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt for Enlightened Tutor and Genesis, Sore Frog and Viridian Zealot for Survival.

For people that want to run a Survival deck with a positive combo match up or a Dreadnought deck to trample over all of the haters, the U/g/w Vengeur Mask port seems to be it.

Team-Hero

07-15-2007, 04:09 PM

Im not really seeing the advantages to playing this particular incarnation of Survival over say Rec sur. Heres a list ive been working on for quit some time with moderate success in my local meta game.
Rec sur:

lands:
1 x plains
1 x swamp
8 x forest
3 x bayou
3 x savannah
4 x windswept heath
1 x wooded foothills

Spells:
4 x swords to plowshare
4 x survival of the fittest
4 x cabal threpy
1 x recurring nightmare

critters:
1 x triskelion
1 x palinchron
1 x academy rector
1 x harmonic sliver
1 x squee goblin nabob
1 x genesis
1 x bone shredder
3 x eterbal witness
3 x loxodon hierarch
3 x dark confidant
3 x birds of paradise
3 x werebear
4 x sakura tribe elder (mvp)

SB:
4 x duress
4 x engineered plague
3 x mesmiric fiend
1 x loaming shaman
3 x krosan grip

The deck isnt as combo centric as nought survival which gives it the ability to play other rolls more effectively in the given match ups(even at the bare minimum the decks combo pieces are good on there own(with the exception of palinchron of course)). It plays black that grants it access to much need discard effects in form of threpy, duress, and fiend which I believe is a absolute must in any survival deck that wants to be competivie in todays meta game.

Consider Running Great Whale, Palenchron, and Kokusho... with infinite mana that's your kill if you get survival going. Your RecSur build seems very dependant on Survival to be online. I used to love the GreatWhale RecNight engine, but it's just too fragile to be in this meta right now. It's great but the fact that it needs Survival of the Fittest makes it bad because they would be deadcards on any other possition. I run a G/W/B RecSur build and most of my creatures do 'something' when they come into play. For example, instead of Sakura, I run Ranger. Instead of Werebear, I run Wall of Roots. Instead of Confidant, I run Wall of Blossoms. I don't run Genesis since I am running Recurring Nightmare.

overlord95

07-16-2007, 08:14 PM

@ Overlord
I'm curious with some of your card choices. 3 BoP? It seems rather awkward that you wouldn't want to maximize your chances of leading with turn 1 BoP turn 2 Survival. Have you tried Tarmogoyf over Werebear? Once I tested it I nearly orgasmed and haven't turned back. He makes the deck infinately better. Infinately. You're one of the very few builds, similar to my own, that run the full suite of spell types. Using Tarmogoyf allows you to take full advantage of that. Also, please edit your damn post and put up some capitalizations. I am NOT going to go through that entire thing fixing everything when I know you're being lazy. You know the rules. :) Yes I do know the rules but as of recently I've started posting on a phone so fuck capitilization, i'll fix my posts when I get to a computer. In my original list of the deck I did in fact run +1 Birds and -1 Sak Elder, but over time I came to realize that Birds was infact just to fragile to run as a 4 of hence the change. I have in fact not tried Goyf but my initial reaction to it is obivious, it doesn't tap for mana. When I play a Survival deck what I want is opitions, and Goyf doesn't allow for any other opition besides playing the aggro deck, which this deck just really isn't going into any given matchup.

Consider Running Great Whale, Palenchron, and Kokusho... with infinite mana that's your kill if you get survival going. The problem with adding more untap creatures is a) they are dead draws b) it takes the deck in a more combo oriented direction and at that point your better off playing a actual combo deck. On the Kokusho note, Trisk serves the same purpose but is better in combat, easier on the mana base, and its ability isn't restricted to loseing the creature.
Your RecSur build seems very dependant on Survival to be online. This is true for the combo to work you are more then likely going to need a Survival online. But as far as the deck in general needing Survival to run I've found it to be surpriseingly consistent.
I used to love the GreatWhale RecNight engine, but it's just too fragile to be in this meta right now. The combo itself is in fact extremely sterdy, the only things that actually stop it are Swords and Disenchant effects.
It's great but the fact that it needs Survival of the Fittest makes it bad because they would be deadcards on any other possition. Then how would adding more of them aliviate this problem?
I run a G/W/B RecSur build and most of my creatures do 'something' when they come into play. For example, instead of Sakura, I run Ranger. Instead of Werebear, I run Wall of Roots. Instead of Confidant, I run Wall of Blossoms. I don't run Genesis since I am running Recurring Nightmare. Can you list some of those creatures, cuz none of those with the exception of Wall of Blossoms do anything when they come into play. But as for some of your card choices, Ranger(im assuming you mean Quirion Ranger)has really bad synergie with the combo you need 6 lands to combo out and 7 for infinite mana. I also was playing Wall of Roots in a earlyer incarnation of this deck but found it was only better then Bear when you had Survival in play. I also found myself having trouble switching into the aggro deck due to the fact that Hierarch was my only beater. Bob is Survival 5-8 with legs nuff said.

07-16-2007, 10:55 PM

Despite the fact that Werebear adds mana, which I'll mention was why I had initial doubts about switching it to Tarmogoyf, it is just as fragile as Birds of Paradise in that role. By the time you have Threshold, it's mana-producing abilities should be irrelevant. Of course the deck may feel the need for mana in the early game, but against a deck like Goblins, playing a 2/3 Tarmogoyf on turn 2 compared to a 1/1 Werebear is a significant difference. Tarmogoyf can essentially make a complete role-reversal in the Goblins matchup. If he's able to be made into a 3/4+ on the first couple turns, you can easily become the aggro deck in the matchup and force them to block. As a matter of fact, the very last game I tested against Goblins I opened with a turn 2 and 3 Tarmogoyf, both of which came into play as 3/4s and were 4/5s by turn 4. Compare that to Werebear, and how it wouldn't have done much of anything at all.

Generally, in a deck like Survival you wish to maximize the efficiency of your slots to get the best out of them, but you're just neglecting raw power here. This is one of the very few cases where it's a lot better for the deck to take the single-option route for a slot.

Team-Hero

07-17-2007, 06:54 PM

@ overlord95:
I don't even run the Great Whale combo anymore because it seems too inconsistant. I was not trying to alter your deck, just trying to make some points. I don't like the fact that 1 Great Whale RecSur needs 6 lands to get going. I much rather run an Angel of Dispair, Sundering Titan, Akroma, or S.S. Swallower in its place. I don't do many fancy tricks with Recurring Nightmare in my deck. He's mainly used to get my Witnesses back into play to pick pocket a card from the gaveyard or get myself a huge beater going.

On a side note. I do run Goyfs in my RecSur build now because they are just that good. I am also testing a Jotun Grunt over Genesis. Jotun puts creatures in my graveyard back in my library so I can Survival for them and play them again. My theory behind this is to save my mana... I know that the tempo is reduced. I am also testing 2 Oris in my deck... see how reliable that lock is.

Anarky87

07-18-2007, 12:44 AM

Is anyone running the GBW Survival? I have a list I've been tinkering with, but I'm going to refrain from posting it. I was just curious as to the lists people were using.

overlord95

07-18-2007, 01:57 AM

@ overlord95:
I don't even run the Great Whale combo anymore because it seems too inconsistant. Running the Rec portion of Recsur as a psudoe reanimator deck doesn't make the deck anymore consistent then the Palinchron versions (this is assuming your running only 1 Recurring Nightmare(but I'm guessing you run more then 1)). Both need survival online to ditch the fatties, what your reanimating is virtually uncast able, and they both require the same amount of pieces to the machine to make it tick. But one needs a few turns to win as opposed
to winning on the spot.

I don't like the fact that 1 Great Whale RecSur needs 6 lands to get going. Realisticly you cant go off till about turn 5 anyways and that's on a really good draw even with multiple untap creatures

Is anyone running the GBW Survival? I have a list I've been tinkering with, but I'm going to refrain from posting it. I was just curious as to the lists people were using. Uhh, my list is gwb so yeah people are running it.

Team-Hero

07-21-2007, 05:32 AM

Is anyone running the GBW Survival? I have a list I've been tinkering with, but I'm going to refrain from posting it. I was just curious as to the lists people were using.

I am. Here is my decklist.
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
2 Plains
--21 Lands--
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Dragon
1 Angel of Dispair
1 Blazing Archon
4 Oriss, Samite Guardian
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
--23 Creatures--
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Recurring Nightmare
4 Survival of the Fittest
--16 Other Spells--

--Sideboard--
3 Glowrider
3 Krosan Grip
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate
2 Darkblast
1 Withered Wretch
1 Swords to Plowshares

tomjulioo

07-22-2007, 12:19 PM

Tacosnape

07-22-2007, 01:10 PM

My GBW:

4 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
3 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Basking Rootwalla
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Bone Shredder
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Crypt Champion
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Extirpate
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Loaming Shaman

Team-Hero

07-22-2007, 03:36 PM

i think you can cut the archon and at least 1 oriss.

sylvan safekeeper couldn't become benevolent bodyguard (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=36118) as he can be back with genesis and lands you sac are dead?

tomjulioo

I have considered cutting the Archon for something else, but the fact that he stops most aggro decks in their tracks with a Safekeeper in play is amazing. I can't afford to cut another Oriss because game 1 she is my only answer to combo and she is great answer to aggro as well. I would love to be able to use Bodyguard but I feel that it is too critical for me to be bringing back Oriss with Genesis than Bodyguard. This deck generates enough mana anyways to be able to use the Safekeeper. Once Oriss gets going, not a lot of spells are played for the land loss to make an impact on you.

Illissius

07-22-2007, 05:14 PM

My GBW

Wow. I like this a lot. I had thought of putting the Saffi / Loyal Retainers version of the combo in Survival, but dismissed it as being expensive and unwieldy; and also noticed the Champion / Saffi / Caller version as a Buried Alive stack; but never put two and two together*. Speaking of which, what about single copies of Loyal Retainers and Akroma? Maybe not in the same deck as Saffi, but it seems likewise potent, similar to Exalted Angel: pay seven mana over multiple turns, and you could have an Akroma as soon as turn three (with a Mox, Bird, or Elf). (Incidentally, this appears to result in a kill on the same turn as the Saffi combo, assuming your opponent has the decency to allow two points of his life to be lost through other means).

Does your deck have enough mana? Twenty lands and four Birds seems pretty low, given that Survival decks are sometimes composed of over half parts mana.

* The difference, for the uninitiated, is that with Loyal Retainers, you have to play Saffi, Retainers, and Warden, Caller, or whatever else you are using all manually, whereas with the other version, thanks to it using a triggered effect (which doesn't discriminate for Legends), it is enough to reanimate the Champion, which brings back Saffi, and then Caller once you feel like stopping the loop.

Tacosnape

07-23-2007, 01:04 AM

Wow. I like this a lot. I had thought of putting the Saffi / Loyal Retainers version of the combo in Survival, but dismissed it as being expensive and unwieldy; and also noticed the Champion / Saffi / Caller version as a Buried Alive stack; but never put two and two together*. Speaking of which, what about single copies of Loyal Retainers and Akroma? Maybe not in the same deck as Saffi, but it seems likewise potent, similar to Exalted Angel: pay seven mana over multiple turns, and you could have an Akroma as soon as turn three (with a Mox, Bird, or Elf). (Incidentally, this appears to result in a kill on the same turn as the Saffi combo, assuming your opponent has the decency to allow two points of his life to be lost through other means).

Does your deck have enough mana? Twenty lands and four Birds seems pretty low, given that Survival decks are sometimes composed of over half parts mana.

First off, I started running Loyal Retainers/Akroma in Survival about a year ago. As to Retainakroma versus Infinibears, I think you run either one or the other, but not both.

Here's the catch. Whereas Loyal Retainers and Akroma struggle on their own (Unless you run them in Madness Survival with 4 Akromas, which I tried once), Saffi Eriksdotter is pretty good in a deck full of "Comes into play" guys anyway. It's fantastic with Bone Shredder, fantastic with Witness, pretty good with Harmonic Sliver, revives Tarmogoyfs, and has insane synergy with those creatures + Cabal Therapy. Caller of the Claw isn't half bad either. Again, especially with Bone Shredder and Cabal Therapy.

Crypt Champion, admittedly, sucks without the Survival. I should probably switch out a Forest for a Taiga so I can play him in a pinch, but then I'd drop into the whole trap of having to run Anger, then having to run Rofellos, and then I'd want to go ahead and splash Kavu, and it'd be an endless barrage. For the most part, though, Loyal Retainers and Akroma are no better without the Survival. This is why I went the Infinibears direction.

Surprisingly, yes, the deck has enough mana. It might be teetering on the edge of low and in some metas 21 land might be better, but it mostly runs fine where it is, especially when you factor in the very low curve for a Survival deck and the high number of 1 drops (16). I was -highly- uncomfortable with just the 20 lands and the Birds when I first tried it, as I'm used to RGBSA with Birds and Werebears and Rofelloses (Rofelli?), but it's been okay. I never need more than 5 mana, can hang around for a long time with 2 in a pinch thanks to Tarmogoyf, and if I get to 3, I can Witness a fetchland into 4.

Illissius

07-23-2007, 01:20 AM

Although I am also often confused by this, Crypt Champion is actually black. You can't kick him without Birds, but he's a four mana symmetrical Unearth.

MattH

07-23-2007, 08:05 PM

Although I am also often confused by this, Crypt Champion is actually black. You can't kick him without Birds, but he's a four mana symmetrical Unearth.

CC and Saffi have a fun little thing where they keep dying and bringing the other back. If you have an Essence Warden in play, that's infinite life. If you finish it off with Caller of the Claw, that's infinite 2/2 bear tokens.

Illissius

07-23-2007, 10:22 PM

MattH

07-23-2007, 11:33 PM

Err... I think my previous post indicates that I am fully aware of this? I was saying that Crypt Champion is capable of doing at least something if you draw it without a Survival. What I am often confused by is whether it costs black mana to cast and red to kick, or vice versa.

gatherer.wizards.com ?

It's black to get the unearth effect, and red if you want to get the 2/2 doublestriker also. You can't get just the red part. Where is the confusing part?

Obfuscate Freely

07-24-2007, 12:37 AM

Crypt Champion, admittedly, sucks without the Survival. I should probably switch out a Forest for a Taiga so I can play him in a pinch...
I'm pretty sure he was originally responding to this, to point out that a Taiga is not necessary to play Crypt Champion. Can it be dropped, now?

Tacosnape

07-24-2007, 12:49 AM

I'm pretty sure he was originally responding to this, to point out that a Taiga is not necessary to play Crypt Champion. Can it be dropped, now?

Agreed. And what I meant to have said/implied was that Red was required to keep him in play as a legitimate threat.

EDIT: While we're at it, if I was not running the Crypt Champion/Saffi Eriksdotter/Ranger Smith combo, what would you guys recommend to fill those slots in BGW? I was doing pretty well with Thornweald Archer, actually, but I keep feeling like something better has to exist. Watchwolf? Nimble Mongoose?

diffy

07-24-2007, 06:21 AM

EDIT: While we're at it, if I was not running the Crypt Champion/Saffi Eriksdotter/Ranger Smith combo, what would you guys recommend to fill those slots in BGW? I was doing pretty well with Thornweald Archer, actually, but I keep feeling like something better has to exist. Watchwolf? Nimble Mongoose?

This is the list Tao posted on some german Forum:

// Lands
6 [RAV] Forest
1 [RAV] Swamp
3 [R] Bayou
3 [A] Savannah
1 [US] Plains
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 [AL] Krovikan Horror
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ARE] Duress
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LE] Glowrider

Source: http://www.zkforum.de/showpost.php?p=491897&postcount=113

It runs pretty solid although I somewhat disagree with some of his choices...
The list I have been testing is the same of above except for:

-2 Forest +1 Savannah +1 Bayou
(because I hated loosing to goblins because of color screw [having that lackey-on-the-play connecting into siege-gang because only having green mana and Swords in hand])

-1 Cabal Therapy +1 Wall of Blossoms
(because WoB is plainly awsome)

-1 Krovikan Horror +1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
(because I think that Horror is only usefull in situations in which you are already winning (loads of mana, survival) and because Squee is better if the game drawgs on)

My sideboard is his -2 Krosan Grip +1 Glowrider +1 Cabal Therapy

The deck can basically beat anything except for non-Empty the Warrens combo.
Goblins is rough if they have the Lackey on the play into Siege-Gang start but pretty easy otherwise.
Aggro Control is basically what this deck is supposed to beat.

Joe Eigo

07-24-2007, 07:59 AM

Tao's current list runs Wastelands and less Tribe-Elders, because the deck isn't that mana hungry anymore and a little more agressive thanks to Tarmogoyf.

Tog

07-25-2007, 07:09 PM

Hello fellow sourcers. I don’t post too often but here’s some food for thought. Has anyone seriously considered the addition of a single Dryad Arbor? I advocate its inclusion in to modern Survival decklists as a supplemental plan against Lackeys on the play. It also has the additional benefits of being able to surprise and block un-threshed Mongeese and greedy Confidants. Confidant, in particular, gives RGbSA decks a headache fueling the opponent with disruption to possible derail your entire strategy. RGbSA with essentially no answers for it aside from the 4cc Flametongue Kavu and Burning Wish has a tough time. Here’s what I’ve come up with for pros and cons.

[1] Being able to pull out a surprise blocker out of your ass fueled by either Windswept Heath or Wooded Foothills is priceless. Trading a land for Confidant, un-threshed Mongoose, or Lackey is well worth the land if you don’t have any other answers for these critters.
[2] However, this strategy isn’t foolproof. Against Goblins with Lackey on the play, the dryad is only a surprise blocker only if the opponent doesn’t have a Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Mogg Fanatic, or Gempalm Incinerator waiting. That’s a lot of ifs. That’s why I suggest the dryad as a supplemental strategy. However, better players often make their plays on the second main phase to better allocate their mana according to their opponent’s plays. Thus Mogg Fanatic usually shouldn’t be a factor. It’s unlikely your unsuspecting opponent will preempt your single Wooded Foothills soon to be dryad with a Fanatic on the first main phase. The good thing about Wasteland and Rishadan Port, if they are dropped, is that you know not to fetch the dryad. However, this means lackey will connect. Even with Port out, it might be worth it to fetch the dryad because your opponent may not see the right play until its too late. It must also be noted that the opposing Goblin player must also be lucky to have the right string of cards.
[3] For those Survival builds running equipment, dryad can become a valuable asset. In an attrition war, end of turn fetchland in to an equipable dryad the following turn can win games.
[4] Late game, with Survival out, it is pitchable for more creatures. With extra mana, you can also search it out with Survival for a free hasted Llanowar Elf.
[5] The dryad fits perfectly with Welder Survival or ATS strategies if anyone bothers to play them anymore. For ATS, it can provide an additional creature for the Tradewind Rider to become active. Both these strategies also run Quirion Rangers which has incredible synergy with the dryad. Against the threshold player, being able to chump the opposing Tarmogoyf with the dryad and bouncing it back to your hand until the opponent has an answer for the Quirion Ranger can buy some valuable time. Beware of Fire/Ice or Pyroclasm though. As you can guess, this strategy is much more potent against white splash Threshold then its red counterpart.
[6] For those builds who run Aether Vial, you can vial out the dryad on zero counters at instant speed mana accelaration. Its cool but probably the least practical.
[7] Drawing the dryad sucks monkey balls. Making it your land drop susceptible to most all creature hate and setting you back on tempo can be game then and there.

That’s all I’ve got for now. What do you guys think about its inclusion?

Team-Hero

07-26-2007, 10:21 PM

I will consider the Dryad Arbor as a 1 of. I will remove a Forest, since I am already running 4, to try her out. I'll see if she is worth a slot in the deck vs. a normal forest.

Nightmare

07-27-2007, 08:24 AM

I've actually been trying to get Di to test this for a little while. It seems to fit well into the overall strategy of E!UGRBATSA2K7 (ATS) and has a lot of hidden synergies he would love to play with. Finding room is an issue, because going down to 2 basic Forests seems rough.

Tao

07-29-2007, 09:58 AM

I played the Source tourney with GBW Survival and just lost in the 1/4 finals against an ENDLESS series of topdecks from atwa (for 2 games for ~10 turns each time).

The 2 most important things first:

1. With Tarmogoyf there is no need for any acceleration: Why would you accelerate into searching and playing Baloths or Hierarchs when you can just play a bigger creature for less Mana; that gives you a lot of free slots for more spells

2. Now, the most important thing:

>>> PLAY FOUR PERNICOUS DEEDS

they are insanely strong

- Survival will usually lose when it does not have a Survival and tries to win either with trades or a damage race because decks like Threshold or Faerie Stompy ar just superior when it comes to this; Deed gives you a control tool that helps you to resolve a Survival and bring your card advantage online; furthermore it gives you outs against big ETW and Vials running cray

- they make Tarmogoyf REALLY big, it is always 4/5, usually 5/6 and often 6/7

- EoT blow up Deed, then Therapy or other Discard is very strong and leaves the opponent out of gas

matchups that improve greatly with Deed:

- Vial Goblins
- CRET Belcher (ETW, Mana)
- Threshold
- Fish
- Countersliver
- Angel Stompy, RG/ Beatz
- Aluren

matchups in which Deed is an absolute bomb that wins by itself:

- Staxx
- Faerie Stompy
- Other turbo Artifact Aggro decks (Dragon Stompy, Empty the Slogger, the new Black Phyrexia deck, Angel Staxx, 5/3)
- Affinity, AfFOWnity
- Enchantress

Matchups in which Deed is mediocre:

- Control mirror: Trades 1/1 with their threats; usually you win the lategame with Genesis anyway, so that's not too bad
- Survival mirror: the player who has got the Survival wins anyway
- Red Death, Pikula: Usually just a one for one expansive removal spell; but still a removal spell

Matchups in which Deed is bad:

- Solidarity

So, here is my list:

I play Extirpate maindeck because I want to have outs against the cards that I fear most: Ill Gotten Gains, Ichorid and Life from the Loam. Furthermore it is a bomb in the Control mirror.

// Lands
4 [RAV] Forest (1)
3 [R] Bayou
3 [A] Savannah
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [RAV] Swamp (1)
1 [US] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 [AL] Krovikan Horror
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [PLC] Extirpate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [ARE] Duress
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LE] Glowrider

Matchups:

Aggro:

Goblins: G1 is 55/45 in their favor because they sometimes overwhelm you with Lackeyor Vial and mana denial. In G2 you are 60-40 favored because of the Plagues.

Chalice Aggro: your best matchup; either Deed or Survival (for Shredder, Goyf, Harmonic) win by itself

Aggro Control:

Threshold: you are clearly favored here because you have too much removal and equally big threats so that they can't race you; in the late game you win because you resolve either a Survival or because of card advantage from Deed and Witness

Sliver, Fish: a bit worse than Threshold because Wall of Blossoms isn't that good and they have either Crytalline or Confidant who can both be annoying, but this is still ~50%, probably a bit better

Combo:

of yourse the problem matchup; but in G2 you play 4 Duress, 4 Therapy, 4 Extirpate and 3 Glowrider, so you have to hope that this is enough; you usually beat Solidarity with that hate package but you are defenseless against a turn 1 kill in G3 against Tendrils decks

Control:

White Control (Rifter, Eskimo, Wombat): simple: you can't lose; EoT Deed, get it back with Witness in your turn, they can't win and then you make Genesis

Black control (Helldozer.dec, Truffle Shuffle): try to Extirpate their threats, especially Echoes if somehow possible, and you should be fine; nevertheless this matchup is highly random for a control mirror and depends much on single card choices (how many Echoes do they play, how many Extirpates do you play); and find your Divining Top

Blue Control (Landstill): Wasteland + Extirpate can spell GG, but you are favored even without it because you have inevitability from Genesis

Tacosnape

07-29-2007, 11:58 AM

Blue Control (Landstill): Wasteland + Extirpate can spell GG, but you are favored even without it because you have inevitability from Genesis

So most Survival decks think until I Crime Genesis and have a Swords waiting on him in a pinch.:wink:

I must admit, though, that's a really cool list. I'm becoming a huge fan of BGW Survival lately (Took 1st in a tournament last night), and I'd been looking for some sort of awesome creature removal tool to complement Swords to Plowshares and the lone Bone Shredder.

Without running Deed (My build is more aggressive and runs EE sideboard), do you have any suggestions as to what creatures might help here? If not, I may just try that out.

EDIT: I just noticed you run a lone Krovikan Horror. How's that working out for you?

MattH

07-29-2007, 01:59 PM

I know from experience that KH makes combat math way way in your favor, but mostly it looks like he's running it over Squee.

Tao

07-29-2007, 05:50 PM

Yes, it is a Squee replacement. I usually put Wall of Blossoms on Top of him (or a Genesis, but usually I try to avoid having both in Yard, especially postboard, to avoid Cryptas) to fetch more Tarmogoyfs. Simple and good. 4 Goyfs are enough fat to win almost everything.

Advantages:

- useful without Survival
- can be used 2x a turn with enough Mana
- has a protection against Graveyard hate like a fresh Crypt because you can return it back to hand at the end of your own turn

the only disadvantage:
- costs one Mana more to activate unless one of your creatures dies in play from Therapy or in Combat

Xero

07-29-2007, 08:09 PM

I'd been looking for some sort of awesome creature removal tool to complement Swords to Plowshares and the lone Bone Shredder.

Without running Deed (My build is more aggressive and runs EE sideboard), do you have any suggestions as to what creatures might help here? If not, I may just try that out.

If you can hold on a few months, Shriekmaw will be awesome here.

07-29-2007, 11:28 PM

Interesting list, Tao. I know we played in the Source tourny, but due to MWS I really didn't get to see your deck. Some thoughts:

- I might've mentioned this before, but have you ever tested Sylvan Library in the SDT slot? Or even Dark Confidant? I'm not necessarily saying they'd be better/worse, I'm just curious. Back when I ran Sylvan Library it was an absolute bomb, because it gives you actual card advantage as opposed to a single draw. Same with Dark Confidant. Realistically the curve is low enough to the point that it won't affect you too much, and the CA is brings outweights that anyway. I realize SDT has better synergy with Pernicious Deed, but I figured I'd ask.

1. With Tarmogoyf there is no need for any acceleration: Why would you accelerate into searching and playing Baloths or Hierarchs when you can just play a bigger creature for less Mana; that gives you a lot of free slots for more spells

I was actually asked the exact same thing today. I currently run 3 Tarmogoyf and have been looking for room for the 4th, and was questioned on Ravenous Baloth. Granted, I do feel those cards are weak due to their casting cost, but a necessary evil as a safety net should the need arise.

>>> PLAY FOUR PERNICOUS DEEDS

they are insanely strong

- Survival will usually lose when it does not have a Survival and tries to win either with trades or a damage race because decks like Threshold or Faerie Stompy ar just superior when it comes to this; Deed gives you a control tool that helps you to resolve a Survival and bring your card advantage online; furthermore it gives you outs against big ETW and Vials running cray

As adamant as you are about this, I still disagree about Pernicous Deed in this deck. However, that argument isn't worth bringing into this thread as I know damn well where it will lead....anyway, if I were to run anything of that matter, it'd likely be Engineered Explosives. Although it is a bit more limited than Deed in terms of killing things (honestly, 4cc isn't all that common), and it doesn't sweep everything underneath it, but the fact that EE is faster makes a big difference in games involving cards like Empty the Warrens and such. When they are on the play and make 10+ goblins turn 1, you lose because you die by the time Deed is online. This is really just a personal preference for me though, but at least it'd also give you a better shot of tossing an artifact in the graveyard for Tarmogoyf :)

@Extirpate

That's an interesting inclusion in the maindeck. Considering it's inclusion, based on your fears, I wonder if you've tested Yixlid Jailer at all. I run him as a bullet in my sideboard for Ichorid and Loam, and he shuts the entire game off doing so. Not worth a maindeck slot by any means, but at least consideration.

3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest

/cringe. Srsly?

SB: 3 [LE] Glowrider

Considering it costs the same amount of mana, I don't see why this isn't Rule of Law. Combo decks can easily play around Glowrider, but Rule of Law shuts storm combo completely down. Granted, you could theoretically bring these in against AC/control decks, but the matchups are already assumed to be favorable without them, plus you bring in Duress.

Everything regarding Dryad Arbor

He is bad. Very bad. I like the cute tricks he's got, but the fact that you have a land that is threatened by creature removal is awful. In testing I lost an entire match because I had an Arbor hit by Mogg Fanatic, and another time because I couldn't cast Survival on turn 2. The deck wants landdrops and wants them to stick. Wasteland is bad enough; giving them more isn't a good thing.

I must admit, though, that's a really cool list. I'm becoming a huge fan of BGW Survival lately (Took 1st in a tournament last night), and I'd been looking for some sort of awesome creature removal tool to complement Swords to Plowshares and the lone Bone Shredder.

Without running Deed (My build is more aggressive and runs EE sideboard), do you have any suggestions as to what creatures might help here? If not, I may just try that out.

For now, something like Smother, Darkblast, or even Ghastly Demise are decent options. I particarly like Smother and its ability to kill Tarmogoyf 100% of the time. If not, another Bone Shredder won't hurt, at least until Shriekmaw is legal.

Tog

07-30-2007, 06:57 PM

Concerning Dryad Arbor:

He is bad. Very bad. I like the cute tricks he's got, but the fact that you have a land that is threatened by creature removal is awful. In testing I lost an entire match because I had an Arbor hit by Mogg Fanatic, and another time because I couldn't cast Survival on turn 2. The deck wants landdrops and wants them to stick. Wasteland is bad enough; giving them more isn't a good thing.

Di, I completely agree with you, playing Dryad Arbor as a land drop blows. Instead, try to think of it as utility rather than cutting a land. With potentially up to eight tutors you can decide to play it when you want to. It gives you a way to convert excess lands in to creatures. For Rec-Sur, it gives you the ability to pitch a land to Recurring Nightmare rather than another creature. Need a creature to pitch to Therapy’s flashback rather than your Tarmogoyf? No problem. Potential instant blocker at the expense of a land. I’ve been experimenting with RGSA (Yes, I know…) with Dryad Arbor and, cracking a fetchland the end of turn for Dryad Arbor and equipping it with either the Sword or Jitte and swinging, has been golden. It’s definitely something Zilla Stompy might want to consider. There are many more interested synergies which are easy to set up with so many tutors for it. Playing it as your land drop sucks because you want your mana base to stay put but keep in mind that it is only a singleton. Chances are you won’t see it in your hand too often and its potential benefits make for some slick plays. If the conditions aren’t right for the Dryad, don’t fetch it. If you do, toss it to Survival. ^__^"

07-30-2007, 09:11 PM

I didn't play it in a land slot; I played it in a creature slot (Birds of Paradise to be specific). In the games where it was relevant, it did nothing but bad things for me. Of course there is potential for the card, but I do not believe a deck like Survival is one to take advantage of that because mana sources are highly valued and thus cannot afford to take chances.

Finn

07-31-2007, 02:20 PM

He is bad. Very bad. I like the cute tricks he's got, but the fact that you have a land that is threatened by creature removal is awful. In testing I lost an entire match because I had an Arbor hit by Mogg Fanatic, and another time because I couldn't cast Survival on turn 2.So Birds would have been better on both those occasions? 'Cuz, ya know, they don't die to Fanatic and they have haste.

Sims

07-31-2007, 02:57 PM

So Birds would have been better on both those occasions? 'Cuz, ya know, they don't die to Fanatic and they have haste.

It may not have made a difference, but in this case at least Birds wouldn't have eaten a land drop.

Finn

07-31-2007, 04:40 PM

If he had another land to play, and needed Survival that turn, I think he would havemplayed the other land. So the land drop argument seems pretty paltry in this case.

Hey, I'm not saying that the card is any good. I mean, it certainly has its uses, but I keep deciding against it for land concerns. My problem has always been that the deck involved has more pressing concerns for its lands than what this card seems likely to contribute.

When would you choose this over a Llanowar Elf? I think it is waiting for the right deck. Currently only Survival decks have a large enough green requirement to make this card look reasonable.

07-31-2007, 05:45 PM

from Cairo

07-31-2007, 10:20 PM

Yea what makes it not work is that its not acceleration and its the most fragile land in existence. In any deck that needs its first few land drops and would like to ideally have early game acceleration, Dryad Arbor if anything hurts both of these goals.

Finn

08-01-2007, 01:07 PM

If you don't count it as a land, then it represents a card that would otherwise not be a land. But I can see what you are saying. IfI get around to it, I am certainly going to try to include it as a 1-of in some deck for an emergency blocker or something.

FoolofaTook

08-01-2007, 01:49 PM

It was the concern that Dryad Arbor took up a land drop. Often times this deck will work on a one or two land hands because of it's acceleration. God forbid if you get stuck with Dryad Arbor in your opening hand and can't do things because it doesn't tap. If you play it turn 1, you open yourself up to about 700 different types of land destruction. If you play it turn 2, you can't cast any 2cc spells. Granted, it wouldn't happen very often, but I'll be damned if I lost a game because of that.

If Dryad Arbor was acceleration to go along with the risk of deceleration then it'd be worth looking at. A Llanowar Elf or Bird of Paradise that hits the board on turn 1 makes a big difference in your options for turn 2. A Dryad Arbor that hits the board turn 1 is just a huge risk with no payoff.

I'm assuming that the purpose of printing Dryad Arbor was one of two things:

a) to make green weenie decks as threat-ridden as Goblins, with the 4 Dryad Arbors getting them up to the 35 or 36 creature threats that it's hard to fit in now, particularly with Birds of Paradise often taking 4 slots. A green weenie would shrug off a turn 1 landkill, assuming that was the draw, and just keep rolling. Obviously green weenies are no threat at all in the Legacy meta regardless of whether they have an additional 4 actors in the deck.

b) to work with Enchantress type decks, allowing for a permanent target for creature enchants that is also a land and can accept those enchants also and maintain both.

I don't see a lot of purpose to the Dryad Arbor outside of those two scenarios and I don't really see it being used in Legacy in either case.

from Cairo

08-01-2007, 10:50 PM

b) to work with Enchantress type decks, allowing for a permanent target for creature enchants that is also a land and can accept those enchants also and maintain both.

Throwing multiple enchantments on a non-basic land that is also a 1/1 would be the worst play in existence, its literally susceptible to almost every form of removal in the format.

As long as the format has Wastelands, Bolts, Swords, and Fanatics showing up in high numbers in top tier decks, I really see including this card being a mistake.

It's only upside is the ability to block Lackey if you fetch it and they don't have 1) Gempalm, 2) Wasteland, 3) Fanatic, 4) Port - Chances are they will have one of the 4 and three of them read, destroy target land when up against Dryad Arbor, which is really something this deck doesn't want to see turn 1.

The other major reason to not use it is because this one key instance where it would be sauce is turn one on the draw, where you have several other plays that are all probably going to be stronger then gambling that your opponent doesn't have 14-16/60 of the cards in their deck that are answers, including: Birds, Tinder Wall/Llanowar Elf, or Cabal Therapy - in Di's list one can add to those options Brainstorm and Nimble Mongoose.

FoolofaTook's point is the main reason though that its a fragile piece of non-acceleration leaving it highly susceptible to decelerating you. If there was more of a pay off to it as it could produce multiple mana and thus be accelerating you, or if it was less open to removal it could definitely be worth considering.

Tog

08-02-2007, 03:48 AM

Hello fellow Sourcers,

Since we got everyone all fired up, I thought I’d pose another question to all the Survival players out there. This is a question concerning the hate Survival has to play against to get its engine online. There is usually a pronounced difference between game one and the boarded games due to the amount of hate Survival has to maneuver through. In my mind, there are two classes of hate Survival has to circumvent, proactive and reactive hate.

The reactive answers are numerous and in all likelihood, a form of it will be played against you in some form or another. They consist of Force of Will & Counterspell variants, Naturalize & its variants, Stifle, and Vindicate. Although Survival is a self protecting engine, with its accomplice Eternal Witness, it often sets you two full turns back by which you could have lost the game before you can even begin to abuse Survival. The reason why blue based decks are especially difficult is because Survival doesn’t even hit play to search up Eternal Witness. In the face of a large amount of Naturalize effects and a large field consisting of blue based support, black has been my chosen splash color for nearly every variant. In fact, in my experience, it has been the only color to go. The reason I have found this to be true is this: with so many main deck bullets, Survival decks suffer from a lack of threat density. These bullets add up consisting of at the bare minimum of Squee, Anger, Genesis, Rofellos, and other essential singletons. Stop Survival and you’ve essentially stopped the deck. Cabal Therapy in this respect has been king. It plays double duty in preemptively stopping any enchantment destruction effects as well as forcing Survival through.

Now, let’s get in to the heart of the matter. The proactive answers are the ones which Cabal Therapy can’t stop every time. A list of the proactive answers to Survival which come to mind at the moment are the following: Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Meddling Mage, and Pithing Needle. Most of these come online before Therapy can even be played. They are enchantments, creatures, and artifacts respectively.

Against the voids, the answer is fairly simple: just search up a creature with that destroys enchantments. However, some Survival decks have completely cut this slot and are left helpless when either void hits play. The answers don’t come cheap either without dipping in to white. The best answers for the voids are Thunderscape Battlemage, Viridian Zealot, and Indrik Stomphowler. The most important thing to note is that it isn’t necessary to keep the voids off the board permanently. The survival player only has to get rid of it temporarily to create a window of opportunity to get Anger/Genesis and other targets in the yard. However, on top of casting a four cc spell the necessary Survival activations can be daunting task.

Meddling Mages are troublesome because they stop Survival from ever entering play. Survival, with its lack of pinpoint removal, often only has answer in the form of Flametongue Kavu and Bone Shredder. These cards are easily stopped by counterspells. Two Meddling Mages can often be game.

Pithing Needle is the worst culprit of them all. A single maindeck Tin Street Hooligan just isn’t enough. Recently, I’ve begun to board in additional Hooligans from the sideboard against almost any deck I come across, especially Threshold.

This is the reason why I have come to love Burning Wish in Survival decks so much. Its versatility answers each of these threats whether it be Massacre, Hull Breach/Reverant Silence, or Shattering Spree/Pulverize/Meltdown. However, recently I have become disappointed with Burning Wish because it fulfills such a narrow (but crucial) weakness of the deck. Although I’ve dedicated ten slots in the sideboard, there have been games where there were no relevant sorceries in the sideboard. Leyline of the Void, Meddling Mage, and Pithing Needle are popular sideboard cards and shut down Survival deck so absolutely, it makes you want to toss out the entire deck out the window. Finally, my question to you all: Is the inclusion of black absolutely necessary for modern Survival builds? How do you deal with the three proactive threats I’ve described without dedicating too many slot in your maindeck or your sideboard without sucking against everything else? How do you guys deal with these fellows? Pernicious Deed is definitely an option but with so many permanents in the deck, who knows how useful if might prove to be. On a side note, I feel that Survival decks are so congested with so many anti-hate cards, the eventual beef, support spells and bullets that combo has always been a headache for me. However, Survival has a huge advantage going for it. There are a lot of different decks floating around and Survival has a game for almost each and every one of them. It is the ideal deck for such a diverse field.

Sorry for being so long winded,
~Tog

from Cairo

08-03-2007, 01:03 AM

IMO, Black is pretty important to modern survival, specifically having access to discard effects. It helps both in counteracting the cards that are harmful to Survival's strategy and can be used to cripple the opponent's offensive strategy. Options like Duress and Cabal Therapy don't make you dedicate much other than 3-4 Bayous to your mana base in order for them to serve their function and in going to black you also gain Engineered Plague and whatever utility creatures you might be able to scrounge out of the color (and furthers gold options).

Blue has filled this role also in the past, but it relies on splash 1U counters and/or dedicating ~16 blue cards to run Force of Will. Brainstorm is no-brainer good in the deck, but outside it and Force, finding another 8 blue cards you want to run without diluting the creature base is going to be a challenge, a couple Stifle I suppose, a couple Tradewind Riders, maybe a few silver bullets and you could scrape together something. The other part of FOW thats a strain on the deck would be that you need to keep the blue cards in or craft your SB accordingly to make sure you're always close to the 15-16 blue cards bare minimum, so against a deck where Stifle or Gilded Drake or w/e isn't that great you'd have to have blue alternatives in the board to bring in their stead.

As for the big 3 worries that you mentioned, Meddling Mage can be stopped by Cabal Therapy, as well as FTK, and Boneshredder (or Masticore or Tradewind Rider, or Swords to Plowshares - depending on build), so I don't see it as the biggest of concerns, generally you have 7-8+ answers to this card compared to their 4 copies of it.

Pithing Needle, you have Tin Street Hooligan or Harmonic Sliver for if played after a resolved Survival. If played first turn, some builds have access to Burning Wish into removal, others have Pernicious Deed, some run Brainstorm that will help in digging to either more non-Survival dependent threats or the Hooligan/Sliver.

Voids if careful can be dealt with via Survivaling for silver bullets. I think it's probably a bad idea not to run some form of creature-answer to enchantments in the MB or SB, Hooligan may be the best MD option, but there are clearly enchantments we'd worry about and something other than scoop should be an option.

I would think the best option for the latter two would be to have 2-3 Krosan Grip/Naturalize/Disenchant/Hull Breach in the sideboard. That way you can at least have some options that don't rely on you having an active Survival when dealing with these cards.

Also the last part about feeling like the decks are often too congested with 1-ofs, bullets and anti-hate that it harms combo matches confused me a bit. I feel like recently Survival decks have been moving towards much more streamlined decks, with clearly having some toolbox, as that's a large upside of the card, but mostly limiting it to cards that are stand alone not that bad on their own. Clearly there are cards like Squee, any of the walls, and Anger where casting them as threats sucks, but Genesis, FTK, Masticore, Tarmogoyf, Baloth/Hierarch, Tin Street Hooligan (and Eternal Witness though not a great deal has an effect thats almost always nice) are all decent bodies for their costs even without their added effects/synergies in the deck. Overall I feel like the utility cards making it into these decks are alot stronger cards then they have been in the past. As a result the deck is less dependent on Survival's staying active on the board for several turns and although clearly running subpar w/o Survival, the decks are able to win out just based on having good cards from time to time without resolving the deck's namesake.

Tacosnape

08-03-2007, 01:22 PM

zalachan

08-08-2007, 10:43 AM

Van Phanel

08-08-2007, 12:18 PM

Caller of the Claw requires 7 mana (correct me if im wrong) to pull it off, which is just too much with only 20 lands.

It does not. You survival Caller into your graveyard before comboing and when you've gone through the loop for a high enough number of times - lets say 10^100 - you choose to reanimate Caller with the ability of the Crypt Champion gaining a lot of bears.

Tacosnape

08-08-2007, 02:46 PM

@Tacosnape: So how does the SB look like with EEs? About the Saffi/Champion combo - i replaced 1x Caller of the Claw with 1x Essence Warden. Now i can combo off faster for infi life (pretty good) and can survive one turn longer against the Warrens plan with Warden out. Caller of the Claw requires 7 mana (correct me if im wrong) to pull it off, which is just too much with only 20 lands.

Caller of the Claw requires no more mana than it takes to play the Crypt Champion. The Crypt Champion will fetch Caller of the Claw on its final repitition. Essence Warden is no faster.

For what it's worth, though, I cut this combo.

As for the sideboard with EE (And my current maindeck list), they look like this:

4 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
4 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bone Shredder
1 Benalish Emissary
1 Basking Rootwalla
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Loaming Shaman

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Extirpate
3 Harmonic Sliver

Tog

08-09-2007, 10:47 AM

Tacosnape

08-09-2007, 12:34 PM

How good are combo finishes in Survival anyway? I'd given up on them some time ago because they just take up too many slot. I can't say I've ever taken the Saffi/Crypt Champion/Warden combo for a spin but I figure you've got to run multiples just in case you run in to StP or Stifle. A survival deck just isn't the most dedicated combo deck. Combo decks, in contrast to Survival, are built solely around protecting and bringing all the combo parts together. Survival decks are built around survival. It has problems protecting itself with all the hate around let alone be able to support a combo as well. 3 - 4 recurring Tarmogoyfs are a cheap way to keep you afloat during the game and a great win condition. For a minimal number of slots, you exhaust the opponents resources and eventually win with continual Goyfs.

Well, the appeal of Saffi/Crypt Champion/Caller is that both Saffi and Caller are pretty good as random single one-ofs on their own. Crypt Champion in BGW, though, sucks, and in BGWR it's hard to find spots for the three of them since you're now introducing Kavu and Rofellos and Anger and possibly Burning Wish into the equation too.

But yeah. Genesis and Tarmogoyf is 5 mana each turn for a recurring Insane/Insane+1 beatstick, which is a very good bargain. And if you get bogged down in creature versus creature wars, Mystic Enforcer tends to go "Huh, lookie down there. Looks like a battle. Think I'll fly over it and go pwn me some opponnet." So I don't think the combo finish is generally necessary.

diffy

08-09-2007, 03:10 PM

And if you get bogged down in creature versus creature wars, Mystic Enforcer tends to go "Huh, lookie down there. Looks like a battle. Think I'll fly over it and go pwn me some opponnet." So I don't think the combo finish is generally necessary.

Couldn't you in that case just introduce the opposing lines with everyone's favourite pal Bone Shredder and pick of a blocker per turn and then randomly swing in for the win? (this would be a possibility to free a slot in a deck in which cutting is really tough)

4 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
4 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bone Shredder
1 Benalish Emissary
1 Basking Rootwalla
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Loaming Shaman

I don't quite understand Benalish Emissary in this... what lands are there that you want to blow up? Maze of Ith?
And is that singleton Basking Rootwaller just there for a surprise blocker or am I missing some trick? In your testing, was he worth his slot?
Also, you run green, you run black, why don't you run the amazing Pernicious Deed? I mean it's in your colors and probably the most amazing sweeper in the game (completely hoses Aggro-Control as an added bonus). I see how it would have rather bad a synergy with your Birds of Paradise, but you could just replace them with Sakura-Triber Elder which arn't that fragile and completely awesome against Goblins (block+kill a guy and give you another land drop)...

For reference, I'll post the list I've been playing a lot recently:

Mainboard
21 Lands
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

21 Creatures
1 Bone Shredder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Harmonic Sliver

4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

18 Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
1 Glowrider
3 Rule of Law
2 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer

The list is basically an offspring of Tao's opting for a more controlish gameplan. (As an aside: I opted to play Squee over Krovikan Horror because this deck should be winning anyways if it has an active Survival and excess mana (the Horror is actually pretty mana hungry) on the table... I'll rather have my guaranteed 1 CA per turn without having to invest more and more mana into it instead of actually playing threats)

The Combo Matchup is really bad pre-board but you still have some outs (Therapy, Pernicious Deed). I only have the chance to playtest versus CRET Belcher though...
The Deck does fairly well against Vial Goblins (White versions with Swords are easier than Black+Green versions with Therapy) and can often even afford to let that Lackey connect.
Aggro-Control sans Counterbalance main is a very good Matchup... with counterbalance it gets really nasty because they can just save their Forces for your deeds and kill you with Goyfs.

I still want to somehow fit in some 2 to 3 Krosan Grips into the sideboard (and maybe some additional Empty the Warrens outs (Sandstorm, Engineered Explosives)) but don't know what to cut...

Any ideas/comments?

Team-Hero

08-11-2007, 03:17 PM

4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
2 Plains
--21 Lands--
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Dragon
1 Blazing Archon
4 Oriss, Samite Guardian
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
--23 Creatures--
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Recurring Nightmare
4 Survival of the Fittest
--16 Other Spells--

--Sideboard--
3 Rule of Law
2 Krosan Grip
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Darkblast
4 Eng. Plague

I've been playtesting this deck for week and it works really well. I know it doesn't run discard mainboard but it really doesn't need it because it runs so many threats. Please help playtest and playtest before you give feedback... thank you.

from Cairo

08-11-2007, 03:35 PM

Oriss + Survival + Genesis

Seems like a pretty good lock once you get to enough mana to maintain it. I guess if you get Survival turn two and Oriss turn three you are good from there out you can buy the next 3 turns off Survival activations for her Grandeur, and set up Genesis in the gy to maintain the lock until you win.

The only thing that would worry me is that stuff like Belcher, TES, and Dread Return.decs can all win before her soft lock is online. Not having any discard hurts for those decks cause the first few turns is where you need to disrupt them the most.

Team-Hero

08-11-2007, 04:34 PM

Your 100% correct Cairo. The deck has good matchups against aggro, aggro control, and random decks. Problem is that the deck does fall apart to most combo because they are just too fast for this deck. I have tried to counter this problem with the sideboard but I still think that it is not enough.

Tacosnape

08-28-2007, 01:13 AM

After a lot of testing, Benalish Emissary's ability to be countered proved to be too much of a liability, and 4 Hierarchs was proving to be 1 Hierarch too many. This left me with two mystery slots, which I decided to make Wastelands, as over 75% of my losses were coming from my manabase being assailed or not being able to produce enough mana quickly enough. Anyway, this left me with the following decklist:

4 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Scrubland
2 Wasteland

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
3 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Basking Rootwalla
1 Bone Shredder
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Mystic Enforcer

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Bone Shredder

I found Wasteland to be supportable in the deck and dead useful in certain circumstances. It nails problematic lands, which is the only thing BGW Survival lacks an amazing way to do without running Vindicate, and I like to keep my creature count reasonably high. A single one is recurrable with Witness.

thefreakaccident

08-28-2007, 07:14 PM

I don't know, it could be just me... but I don't feel comfortable playing survival unless it runs at least 23 creatures..

Right now I am running 25 creatures in my ATS deck.

Devastator played with my deck in a tourney last friday and got second only to Rodrigo Gonzalez playing his stupid reanimtor deck.

Tacosnape

08-28-2007, 08:14 PM

I suppose I might always go back to running a Necrotic Sliver if 22 creatures proves to be too few. In addition to expensively killing a land, it can act as Harmonic Sliver #2, and in case it becomes relevant, it can kill a Planeswalker.

zalachan

09-01-2007, 05:04 AM

@Tacosnape: I also think 4x Hierarch is too many. It just seems unfair to pay four when facing opposing Tarmogoyfs, that are already 4/5. Thats why i run 3x Hierarch and 4x Confidant (took the combo and Rootwalla out). It seems good, all the low cost goodness. The card i like the most in the white build: STP. Now i see why the red build just doesnt cut it. STP-Witness-STP won me soo many games i just dont count anymore.
I wanted to play Jitte in SB, cause there's a lot of red men in my area. Is it worth to play it? I mean, i just plain hate that card, never liked it at all, but it's powerful anyway, and playing all those creatures, and facing Taqrmogoyfs staying at home because of oposing Tarmogoyfs made me think it could be good.

Peter_Rotten

09-01-2007, 01:02 PM

Please note that Survival has not placed very well recently, taking only a single slot out of the past 48 T8 slots. Thread moved to the Established Decks Forums.

Nihil Credo

09-02-2007, 08:36 PM

I've been doing some testing with Tacosnape's list, which I liked a lot because of its efficient mana choices (no Rofellos, Masticore or such greedy crap). There are a couple ideas I'd like to share.

First, I found myself only using Wastelands when I had lots of mana to spare, and often, a single one wasn't really devastating. I tried replacing them with Dust Bowls, and it was nice to be able to cut the opponent off a colour entirely. I can still imagine a few times where I'll really want to just blow up a land for a single mana, but so far, it hasn't happened.

Secondly, I added Spore Frog back in the deck - a soft lock at a bargain price. It's quite nice against Threshold, since even if they stop it for a turn they aren't usually able to alpha strike in a single turn - especially since you can afford to chump-block. Also buys a turn against Empty the Warrens; sucks against Goblins and control, though. I cut the thoroughly underperforming Rootwalla for this one.

Thirdly, with the amount of permanents and recursion we run, I've been trying out a single Braids, Cabal Minion. There are all sort of ways to feed the lady indefinitely (Genesis + anything, Squee with a BoP out, 2x Eternal Witness), and Braids is a huge threat against control decks. It also hurts Threshold if it sticks around, but at four mana it's hard to get it to resolve (I only pulled it off once). It's nice how it provides another sacrifice outlet
to make it easier to recycle 187 creatures. I cut a Hierarch for this one, since they usually perform just as stall creatures; Braids chumpblocks a Tarmogoyf just as well, and eats a permanent while doing so.

Fun story: an opponent playing Life.dec comboed me out on turn two, so I prepared to handle his win conditions and deck him out with Loaming Shaman. During this whole process, I also used both Braids and Dust Bowls to bring him down to zero permanents fairly quickly. Turns out this is what gave me the win, as he showed me a Serra Avatar in his sideboard... if I had not locked him out, he could have just Living Wished for it and the game would have been a draw.

Nihil Credo

09-04-2007, 11:07 AM

Ok, here are some more choices I've made with the deck:

SB: -2 Harmonic Sliver
SB: +2 Krosan Grip

I'm surprised I hadn't noticed it before: the deck completely rolls over and dies to a resolved Humility. With Landstill on the rise, this is not a risk I'm willing to take. Fortunately, the solution is simple and pretty much a strict improvement, since you still have a tutorable Disenchant in the deck.

Next come some big issues with the mana base (very surprising, huh? It's a Survival deck, after all):

-1 Savannah
+1 Plains

This is a choice I don't consider controversial. Having access to white mana is critical against aggro, because playing multiple Swords and Hierarchs (usually recycled via Witness) is the key to winning the game when you don't have an active Survival (which is fairly often - the deck is, correctly, built to not rely on its namesake). Green mana requirements aren't so intensive that one less source cripples the deck: at most you'll have one less Survival activation per turn, not a big issue.
There is no similar reason to add a basic Swamp, firstly because black mana isn't nearly as important against aggro (you only need to play Plague once), and secondly because it would be unfetchable as the enemy colour of the trio.

SB: -1 Bone Shredder
SB: -1 Engineered Explosives
SB: +2 Life from the Loam
-2 Dust Bowl
+2 Wasteland

Boy, oh boy, is this deck vulnerable to mana denial. Eight LD effects (including Stifle and Wasteland) are a problem; twelve are a nightmare, and the fact that BoPs are easily killed doesn't help. Having an amazing spell selection against Goblins postboard doesn't help if you never get to cast that Plague, and Deadguy Ale and its variants still seem to be pretty popular. Not to mention the new kid on the block, Thresh maindecking eight 1cc Stone Rains: good luck not walking into Daze against that bitch.

It was thus with little regret that I cut two of the weakest SB slots for some form of mana defense. Bone Shredder is a card I never ever wanted to sideboard in: if I were to play something against non-Goblins aggro, it would be Umezawa's Jitte. The third Engineered Explosives was next, because I already have all types of removal available maindeck and I still have a decent shot against EtW combo, between the eight discard spells, Engineered Plague and even Spore Frog.

As for the card to choose, I originally wanted to play Lodestone Bauble, because when you're trying to answer land destruction a 1-mana spell is approximately 300 times better than a 2cc one like Life from the Loam or Sacred Ground. Unfortunately, even though I was more than willing to sacrifice the Dust Bowls for it, I couldn't fit in enough basic lands to make the Bauble worthwhile; moreover, if you're being threatened by Stifle and Wasteland, Bauble is pretty much useless.

In the realm of 1cc spells, I was left with such unreliable options as Weathered Wayfarer or Greenseeker, so I had to go up to 2cc. Here Life from the Loam is easily better than Sacred Ground, because Armageddon is much less of a threat than are Stifle, Counterspells and Krosan Grips. A nice side-effect of Loam is that it presents a very tempting Extirpate bait... especially when the opponent sees the Wastelands, which I reintroduced in the deck because of the obvious synergy (there were good chances I would bring them back anyway, but with access to Loam it is really a no-brainer).

That's it for now. Tacosnape, have you played your list since your last post?

(Fun story: No matter how much vodka you've drank with your high school friends, that is no excuse for trying to fit the Karmic Guide/Kiki Jiki combo in Survival.)

Illissius

09-04-2007, 03:41 PM

I'm not sure Wasteland has the "obvious" synergy with Loam over Dust Bowl you think it does, especially as with only two in the deck, you're unlikely to draw both (if even one).

With Wasteland: You Wasteland; next turn, you skip your draw to dredge the Loam, and get back Wasteland. Repeat. Result: :1::g:, your land drop, and your draw step each turn in exchange for killing a land each turn.

With Dust Bowl: Activate Dust Bowl three turns in a row; after the third, cast Loam to get back the lands you sacrificed; during your next draw step, you skip your draw to dredge the Loam back. Result: Over three turns, you spend three land drops, :10::g:, and a draw step to destroy three lands.

Basically, Wasteland requires you to skip your draw steps and merely achieves card parity, whereas Dust Bowl only makes you skip every third and gains you card advantage, but is also more mana intensive. It's not clear cut.

Nihil Credo

09-04-2007, 05:02 PM

You've got a point. Then again, synergy with Loam was only a secondary reason for going back to Wasteland: the main one was that I got to play a couple of games against Landstill where I really wanted Dust Bowl to be Wasteland. This surprised me, since it was the exact matchup where I figured Dust Bowl would shine; turns out that Bowl is much worse when they have Wastelands of their own and you need to kill a Monastery that is holding off all your guys. Perhaps with different draws it might have gone as I planned, or perhaps not.

I thought that and the SB change was reason enough to ditch the Bowl, but now I guess I'll have to reexamine that.

DragoFireheart

09-15-2007, 08:01 PM

Hows this RGSA with Goyfs?

// Lands
10 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 Anger
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
4 Flametongue Kavu
1 Genesis
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Ravenous Baloth
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Troll Ascetic
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Wall of Blossoms

// Enchantments
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Artifacts
2 Jitte

Anarky87

09-15-2007, 11:24 PM

DragoFireheart

09-15-2007, 11:44 PM

I'd just assume go GBW, as it's about to get all the goods from Lorwyn. There you get StP, Duress, and Therapy, as well as Deed out of the side. I played the RGb version for awhile before switching to GBW and really wasn't impressed with it. I've been playing GBW Survival for awhile now and I wouldn't go back.

What sucks is that I got these Taigas and I'm not sure what to do with them.

:frown:

I like the R/G color combo and would like to make a nice deck around it. Perhaps this is the wrong arch-type for me?

Anarky87

09-16-2007, 01:50 AM

What sucks is that I got these Taigas and I'm not sure what to do with them.

:frown:

I like the R/G color combo and would like to make a nice deck around it. Perhaps this is the wrong arch-type for me?

RG Survival was good when the format split, but I think anymore it needs the third color splash to compete with combo. Otherwise it just gets trounced, because it has no way to disrupt them.

I kinda know how you feel, except I'm the opposite. I need Savannah's, to actually play GBW in real life, but I've yet to get them.

Nihil Credo

09-16-2007, 06:38 AM

There is also the fact that FTK is just plain terrible right now.

Myself, I'm ending the debate on Wasteland vs. Dust Bowl vs. Kor Haven (yes, I tried that one too...), going up to 22 coloured lands, replace Shredder with Shriekmaw, and figure out what to cut for Doran. Most likely candidates are probably a single Hierarch, the Loaming Shaman, and/or one Cabal Therapy. Gaddock Teeg will find himself a comfortable place in the sideboard.

Anarky87

09-16-2007, 12:06 PM

What are people's current GBW lists? I have a list for post Lorwyn, but right now I'm focusing on what I can actually put in sleeves and play with. This is Taco's list, I just added the Confidants and changed the board for my meta:

4 Forest
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Heath
4 Foothills

4 BoP
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
3 Dark Confidant
3 Hierarch
1 Boneshredder
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Squee
1 Genesis

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Deed
4 Plague
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Needle

That's what I've been messing with.

amok

09-16-2007, 12:59 PM

There was a GWB Survival deck played by Christian Höttgen in the recent "German Legacy Open DM 07" which placed 1st out of 175(?) people:

Here's the link: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=3117&typ=2&action=comments

The Deck:

Lands (20):
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures (23):
1 Carrion Feeder
4 Wall of Roots
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Academy Rector
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Bone Shredder
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Withered Wretch
3 Eternal Witness

Spells (17):
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Moat
1 Recurring Nightmare

Sideboard:

Creatures (3):
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Karmic Guide
1 Loxodon Hierarch

Spells (12):
3 Krosan Grip
1 Rule of Law
2 Choke
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ivory Mask
1 Pernicious Deed

Nihil Credo

09-16-2007, 02:23 PM

That is a Rec-Sur list, which is different enough to deserve its own thread IMO (particularly since it got multiple Top 8s in large tournaments). It's a combo deck, whereas the Survival builds we're discussing are midrange.

Nihil Credo

09-26-2007, 10:48 AM

Thought I might post my current, post-Lorwyn build. Thoughtseize replaces Duress, and a Witness is cut for Doran. I've also replaced one of the Hierarch with a Feeder, which gives more versatility (wins Goyf fights, allows easier Genesis recursion).
Three Teegs are in the sideboard to fight combo and control; my SB lacks Plague because I don't expect to face Goblins that often, but if you do, just replace Explosives with them.

// Lands
4 [PR] Savannah
2 [PR] Scrubland
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [PR] Bayou
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Creatures
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
3 [PR] Eternal Witness
4 [PR] Birds of Paradise
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [OD] Braids, Cabal Minion
1 [PY] Spore Frog
1 [LOR] Doran, the Siege Tower
1 [LOR] Shriekmaw
1 [SH] Spike Feeder

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 3 [LOR] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives

Waikiki

09-26-2007, 10:53 AM

Im not into survival that much. But isn't duress better then therapy?

What about the treefolk G, when <name> citp search your deck for a forest or treefolk card and put it on top of it 0/3. Does it have any place in the deck?
It also gets 3/3 with doran in play.

I would like to see some beatdown creatures like 3doran/4goyf

<edit> is the hierarch needed when you can play a cheaper version in darkheart sliver. or is the fat body needed?

bigbear102

09-26-2007, 10:59 AM

The point of playing Hierarch is so that you gain the life AND get a 4/4 beatstick. It is a little less relevant now that we have goyf, but I still like Hierarch better. He can get you out of a hole and apply pressure, things like Baloth and Darkheart Sliver don't do that.

Tacosnape

09-26-2007, 11:48 AM

@Nihil:

Spike Feeder. Iiiinteresting. At first I thought "What complete jank," but after looking at it, that bad boy not only can gain you life, it can also win a Tarmogoyf fight and immediately kill Bridge from Below.

I don't think I personally like Braids or Spore Frog, but what's your logic behind Kor Haven?

Anyhow, here's my current list.

4 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scrubland
3 Forest

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Shriekmaw
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Darkheart Sliver
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Basking Rootwalla

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void / Extirpate (Suggestions here?)
3 Harmonic Sliver
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy

I might try out that Spike Feeder, though. Very very interesting how he's gone from being utter crap to somehow good in the modern meta.

Nihil Credo

09-26-2007, 12:17 PM

Kor Haven is yet another colorless land I'm trying out in the one or two colorless spots the manabase can afford (yes, even with Doran). So far I've used it twice, once as an uncounterable way to hold off a Tarmogoyf against Thresh, and another forcing a Breakfast player to find an Abeyance. By the way, how is only 20 lands treating you? I may see going down to 21, but 20 to me seems definitely risky.

Braids may get cut in the future (or shoved to the SB), but I'd encourage you to test Spore Frog again. That little fucker switches your position from "I'm dead unless I draw X removal spells" to "I'm dead if my opponent draws more removal spells than I have discard".

About your list, I just don't like the maindeck Teeg. I played it for a while, then cut it because most of the time it was just a Mage pre-set on FoW. The second Doran is a close call, I may test it in Braids' place. And is Basking Rootwalla worth its space? It never did anything to me - I'd rather run Big Game Hunter.

Your discard setup is very interesting, though... I'll try something similar, probably a 3/3/2 split. But I'm skeptical you'd want the 3x fourths in the sideboard - or rather, I'm skeptical they're the best way to use those SB slots. This ain't Discard.dec, the disruption is only meant as protection (except against combo, for which we have Teeg).

And about your SB... those Harmonic Slivers should really, really be Krosan Grips. Two reasons for that: they give you an out against Humility, and they are almost guaranteed to break you out of Counterbalance lock. That plus a few other minor reasons (may actually hit Deed/EE, can hit Factories or Dragon Breaths) give them an edge over the Slivers' ability to be SotF food.

Happy Gilmore

09-26-2007, 12:19 PM

I think it would be a major mistake not to run Gaddock in the main. Conceding game one to most fast agro decks isn't neccessary any more. Gaddock + Thoughtseize should be a great combo suit. All of a sudden you have game against:

TES
Belcher
Cephalid Breakfast (stops Dread Returns)

And I don't mean running just one. If you have time to survival him up your normally going to win anyway. He has to hit play on turn 2 to be relevant vs. most combo decks. Multipules are fine and can be pitched to survival.

Nihil Credo

09-26-2007, 12:33 PM

A bigger discard suite deserves the maindeck much more than Teeg. They're better against aggro-control, slightly worse against combo, comparable or better against aggro (a 2/2 won't do crap these days, while TS/CT can nab critical Goblins or Goyfs), and better against control (your main worry is resolving SotF; your recursion can take care of sweepers in game 1, before they bring in the hate).

I would only MD Gaddock in a combo-filled environment. But these days, I see a lot more aggro-control than combo.

Tacosnape

09-26-2007, 12:41 PM

By the way, how is only 20 lands treating you? I may see going down to 21, but 20 to me seems definitely risky.

Fair. The mana curve has dropped considerably in my deck with Shriekmaw replacing Shredder, Doran replacing excess Hierarchs, and adding an additional discard spell up to nine. 22 definitely feels too heavy as my curve continues to drop, but 20 might prove to be too low with time. I may go back to 21.

About your list, I just don't like the maindeck Teeg. I played it for a while, then cut it because most of the time it was just a Mage pre-set on FoW. The second Doran is a close call, I may test it in Braids' place. And is Basking Rootwalla worth its space? It never did anything to me - I'd rather run Big Game Hunter.

I like the Teeg maindeck, even if all it does at times is act like a Mage pre-set on Force of Will. If that means resolving a Survival on turn three, rock on, I win. The fact that he's randomly godlike against Combo helps also. However, I concede it's possibly unnecessary.

Big Game Hunter seems ehh to me. Everything seems ehh to me compared to Shriekmaw now. If I were going to run BGH I'd just run a second Shriekmaw instead.

The second Doran is worth it, I think. I was running three, but kept getting two in my hand. Doran's amazingness is that he continues to wean you off your dependency on resolving a Survival, as he curves out beautifully into a massive aggro beatstick. I might also point out how incredibly necessary he is to try and beat Goblins game one. He shuts down Piledriver and survives an encounter with any other Goblin out there, and he takes a lot of effort to Gempalm out of existence. He's great to hold down the fort while Tarmogoyf clobbers through.

The Rootwalla is worth its space for now. For one mana you have an instant-speed blocker, a guard against Smallpox, someone to protect your big guys from Diabolic Edict, a Therapy flasher, or an additional potentially 3/3 beater. And nobody ever expects the Rootwalla. I can't even begin to tell you how many Warchiefs, Mages, Confidants, Mongeese, and so on I've managed to devour by dropping him out. He's not bad to get without a Survival, either. He'll trade with a Mongoose or flash a Therapy early on.

Your discard setup is very interesting, though... I'll try something similar, probably a 3/3/2 setup. But I'm skeptical you'd want the 3x fourths in the sideboard - or rather, I'm skeptical they're the best way to use those SB slots. This ain't Discard.dec, the disruption is only meant as protection (except against combo, for which we have Teeg).

On the contrary, I find that 12 discard is a huge benefit here. Some of your toolbox slots are invariably useless in certain matchups, STP is useless on occasion, and 12 discard backed up by Teegs slaughters combo (I might cut the board Shriekmaw for a third Teeg). There are certain matchups like aggro-control matches, also, where having a Survival resolved is the difference between winning and losing, and the full complement of discard assures you'll resolve them. I frequently find that eight is never enough, and I can't fathom going with less than 10.

As for the 3/3/3 main, this is mostly experimental for the time being. I know I don't like 4 Thoughtseize maindeck due to the potential for excessive lifeloss, but I know I want four in the deck somewhere and probably some in the main. I find the 6/3 configuration of Nontherapy/Therapy makes my Therapies much more accurate and devastating when I get them, though I could fathom going 5/4 due to Therapy just being ridiculous.

Also, I think it's obvious to say that if I went down below 12 discard spells, A Duress is the first cut. The second cut is either a second Duress or a Thoughtseize. In no way does a Therapy get cut from the 75.

And about your SB... those Harmonic Slivers should really, really be Krosan Grips. Two reasons for that: they give you an out against Humility, and they are almost guaranteed to break you out of Counterbalance lock. That plus a few other minor reasons (may actually hit Deed/EE, can hit Factories or Dragon Breaths) give them an edge over the Slivers' ability to be SotF food.

It's possible. I like the Harmonics for now though for what they can do against Stax and Enchantress and the like.

Anarky87

09-26-2007, 03:22 PM

I know in my list I was having trouble getting above 1 land in the early game with only 20 lands. Sometimes I'd get a bird and a land and that would be it for a long time. So I upped the lands to 21 and that has been perfect. I'm definitely itching to get my hands on some of these new cards and try them out.

Illissius

10-06-2007, 10:02 AM

MattH

10-06-2007, 11:51 AM

Has anyone considered running four Shriekmaws, or in any case more than one? The card is like (Flametongue Kavu + Terror) / 2, so it could be worth trying. Also really fun with Saffi (and not bad with Caller) if you're running the combo.

I haven't actually tested it or anything like that but I naturally assumed you'd want 2-3 maindeck and the rest in the SB. Kills Goyf, you know?

Nightmare

10-07-2007, 01:51 AM

In ATS I'm running 3 Shriekmaw and a Gilded Drake. It's a rediculous means of dealing with Tarmy. In any non-blue build I'm running 3 Shriekmaw anyway, with BGW having 4 Swords as well. Consistently killing Tarmogoyf is rather important today.

Also, this is Di on Adam's computer.

MattH

10-07-2007, 03:54 PM

Iranon

10-08-2007, 04:54 AM

Do Spellstutter Sprite and Sower of Temptation have a future in a less aggro-oriented Survival build? Force and Sprite seem a fairly decent counter suite, and reaching the critical mass of decent blue cards seems no longer a problem.

Nihil Credo

10-08-2007, 08:28 AM

Spellstutter Sprite is usually a Spell Snare for CMC=1. Not really worth it, IMO. The only deck that could use it is something like FS which already runs Cloud of Faeries and/or Weatherseed Faeries.

Zach Tartell

10-08-2007, 08:42 AM

What's Drake for? Mystic Enforcer?

Tarmogoyf, son! I'll trade my 3/3 for your 4/5 (at least) all day. Also agaisnt re-animator stuff, which I suppose isn't as relevant anymore. And he has pretty mediocre synergy with TWR.

Tacosnape

10-08-2007, 06:51 PM

I'm also running three Shriekmaws in BGW, for what it's worth, though I might still cut back down to two or jump up to four. I ditched cutesy guys like Basking Rootwalla (I'll miss you, Lizzy!) and Mystic Enforcer for more meat and potatoes, and wound up with this at the present time:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Forest

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
3 Shriekmaw
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Doran, The Siege Tower
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Loxodon Hierarch

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Gaddock Teeg

All I've got to say about Shriekmaw thus far is when it's good, it's incredible, and when it isn't, it's terrible. There's nothing quite like demolishing multiple Tarmogoyfs with Shriekmaw and Witness, yet there's nothing quite like sitting on a hand full of Shriekmaws and Witnesses against something random like Lands! or Solidarity wondering what the hell you did to deserve your fate.

I don't quite know what to do with Thoughtseize yet. I tried four main, but it kept getting me into trouble because I kept drawing three of them and dropping my life total down below acceptable levels (Because I don't run four Hierarchs anymore thanks to Doran), so at the moment I'm sticking it in the board and carefully monitoring situations to see what discard I want the most when. However, I must say that 12 Discard and 3 Teegs is pretty strong against most Combo decks.

MattH

10-09-2007, 01:21 AM

Tarmogoyf, son! I'll trade my 3/3 for your 4/5 (at least) all day. Also agaisnt re-animator stuff, which I suppose isn't as relevant anymore. And he has pretty mediocre synergy with TWR.
Is that really better than just Shriekmawing it to death? The fact that it's only one Drake suggests it's there to be Survivaled up. If I have Survival, I'll just get my own damn Goyf.

from Cairo

10-09-2007, 12:33 PM

If I have Survival, I'll just get my own damn Goyf.

Better yet get your own Big Game Hunter, madness him offing the opposing Goyf, pulling up your own damn Goyf. :laugh:

Drake seems clunky. The things one would want to steal are generally going to be opposing Goyfs, but in that case I think just running Shriekmaw is better, since it doesn't give them a 3/3 with evasion out of the deal and potentially if you have 3 mana open gives you a 3/3 with evasion.
Versus reanimator/breakfast type decks I would rather just have Big Game Hunter.

If you weren't running black I could see the plus sides of Drake, but otherwise I think the other two creature options are better. About the only thing they don't answer is Mystic Enforcer, but Birds can chump that for a few turns if need be.

10-09-2007, 03:21 PM

Is that really better than just Shriekmawing it to death? The fact that it's only one Drake suggests it's there to be Survivaled up. If I have Survival, I'll just get my own damn Goyf.

Getting your own Goyf will just put them both in a standoff. Drake gives you a means to start beating with theirs, which is awesome. Shriekmawing it to death is fine too, but given that Shriekmaw is not a 4/5-6/7 monster, it isn't as good. You can always just Shriekmaw the Gilded Drake and keep that 5th Tarmogoyf.

Anarky87

10-09-2007, 05:14 PM

How has Doran been testing out in the BGW builds? I'm curious as to whether I should be picking some up.

MattH

10-09-2007, 06:53 PM

Getting your own Goyf will just put them both in a standoff. Drake gives you a means to start beating with theirs, which is awesome. Shriekmawing it to death is fine too, but given that Shriekmaw is not a 4/5-6/7 monster, it isn't as good. You can always just Shriekmaw the Gilded Drake and keep that 5th Tarmogoyf.

I meant that I would Maw their Goyf, THEN get my own.

The real test of the slot, it seems to me, is how well it performs when you don't have Survival. And Drake seems weak for that. :<

10-09-2007, 09:20 PM

How has Doran been testing out in the BGW builds? I'm curious as to whether I should be picking some up.

I like him, but wouldn't run more than one, maybe two at the most. He's solid on his own as a 5/5 and makes your Birds of Paradise beat along with Treefolk Harbinger if you happen to run it, which is awesome. The only issue I have with him is the three-color casting cost, which although isn't necessarily difficult to get, can be troublesome at times.

The real test of the slot, it seems to me, is how well it performs when you don't have Survival. And Drake seems weak for that. :<

This depends. At times it can be incredibly weak, but against decks like Threshold, Breakfast, Goblins, etc, it can shine. I suppose though it's most likely inferior to another Shriekmaw, so I guess in the end it's not worth the slot.

But fwiw though, I'm not even running ATS currently. Lorwyn did too much stupid shit in other splash colors.

AngryTroll

10-10-2007, 12:59 AM

There was talk originally about running Treefolk Harbinger in the different Survival decks to block Lackey and find Duals. Is this actually any better than running Tinder Wall?

Assuming you are running Red, Tinder Wall is acceleration, Lackey blocking, and kills Goblins after the first turn. Treefolk Harbinger finds a forest, which means that you are going to get to another land, whether or not your 0/3 lives to your turn. Has anyone actually played Harbinger to get a feel for it?

10-10-2007, 03:15 PM

Assuming you are running Red, Tinder Wall is acceleration, Lackey blocking, and kills Goblins after the first turn. Treefolk Harbinger finds a forest, which means that you are going to get to another land, whether or not your 0/3 lives to your turn. Has anyone actually played Harbinger to get a feel for it?

I really like him. Having the option of fetching a Forest is great as it fixes mana, gets basics against Wasteland, gets you out of manascrew, etc. It also allows you to drop the overall count of nonbasics, and possibly land from the deck. I generally run a 20 land build, but I'm testing 19 right now with Harbinger and so far am not having any difficulty. Plus, the card has the ability to win the game on its own. The Harbinger chain into grabbing Doran is a rather solid plan outside Survival. It adds a completely new dimension to the deck.

HdH_Cthulhu

10-10-2007, 07:06 PM

Could Mesmeric Fiend become another discard spell?
Yeha its cc is not so good, but you could search/discard it for SotF...

So is the adittional :1: wroth the synergie?

from Cairo

10-10-2007, 09:16 PM

Could Mesmeric Fiend become another discard spell?
Yeha its cc is not so good, but you could search/discard it for SotF...

So is the adittional :1: wroth the synergie?

Fiend is ok, now I think, I would probably lean towards Duress/Therapy being superior since their 1cc. But post Lorwyn I definitely wouldn't chose Fiend over Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy.

bigbear102

10-10-2007, 10:04 PM

Fiend used to be in my board, but it's just too slow. Thoughtseize is DEFINATELY better.

I think some more life gain is needed with the addition of Thoughtseize. Especially if you are playing Bob, which with all the new cheap ass threats doesn't look like too bad of an idea. Harbingers also make Bob a bit better, as you can search up a 0, 1, or 3 cc card.

from Cairo

10-10-2007, 10:54 PM

I'm thinking a pair of Spike Feeders since I play Bob and Thoughtseize, the counters can pump up Goyfs, can remove Bridges, and can offset life loss. It seems like the best choice.

Tacosnape

10-10-2007, 11:35 PM

I'm a fan of Darkheart Sliver for the lifegain, personally, as it can act like Harmonic Sliver #2, can make Harmonic Sliver act like Lifegain #2, is cheap, and can remove a Bridge.

...This is assuming you're running BGW.

As for Doran, yes. He is worth exactly two slots in BGW. He is a monstrous facebeater that will win you a lot of games where you don't have Survival.

I don't like Treefolk Harbringer, however.

bigbear102

10-10-2007, 11:42 PM

I haven't tested the Slivers yet, but still just don't like the idea of it. Unless they really impress me, I would play 1 Feeder and 1 Loxodon.

Tacosnape

10-10-2007, 11:49 PM

I haven't tested the Slivers yet, but still just don't like the idea of it. Unless they really impress me, I would play 1 Feeder and 1 Loxodon.

Currently I'm playing a Darkheart and a Loxodon. What's your replacement for Harmonic Sliver, exactly? And in what build? BGW is kind of hurting for other great options.

CynicalSquirrel

10-10-2007, 11:52 PM

I won a Legacy trial at magic-league playing GBW Survival yesterday. I played an exact copy of Tacosnape's list, since it looked pretty refined, but I added 2 Hierarchs to the SB since m-l is contaminated by burn and random aggro decks.

Round one I beat a High Tide deck 2-0. The player fizzled game one due most likely to some play errors, but game two I just ripped his hand with the 12 discard spells and other disruption to get the win.

Rounds two and three I beat similar Threshold decks, basically because of Shriekmaw being completely insane. They both played Threads of Disloyalty which was really annoying, but Harmonic Sliver was able to take care of it. Basically they would run out of cards when I had Survival out and from there the win was easy.

Round 4 I beat 43 Land.dec. Game one I basically scooped since I had nearly no way to win, but game two I Extirpated his Loams and smashed face to get the win. Game three he got a good draw, but I ended up stalling the board at 5 life and ended up winning when he milled his library from too much dredging early in the game and had no way to get through two 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, while I couldn't play anything since he had all 4 Ports out and I was out of basic lands in the deck (I played the Goyfs off of Birds). A clutch Swords to Plowshares on Treetop Village also helped.

Round 5 I beat a suboptimal Ichorid build by basically lucksacking and hitting Extirpate at the right times. Gaddock Teeg was also huge to shut down the Dread Returns.

So basically I beat some bad decks and players, but I was still impressed with how the deck was able to handle any kind of combo deck, even with a bad pilot or whatever. The Threshold matchup is also even stronger than it was before.

I also really liked Doran in the deck. I won one game without Survival with him and Tarmogoyf just beating face, and he was also really useful to try to end a game quickly against a combo deck that is stalled for whatever reason. I think playing 2 of him is probably correct.

I think GBW is really strong right now with the Lorwyn updates, and think if it catches on it could become one of the top decks in the format. Every matchup it has is at least winnable, so with the right cards anything can go down.

bigbear102

10-11-2007, 12:01 AM

I still play red in my deck. I plan on keeping it that way for a while, until I really start having problems, or GBW proves itself to me. I think Anger is too important in the control matchup.

So, to answer the question, I play Zealot and Hooligan over Harmonic. When I play vial Keldon Vandals gets the hooligan slot. Not being able to recur my hate seems bad to me. I know if I play more slivers it gets better, but your opponent can also 'counter' the 2nd one by offing the Harmonic you have in play. If I did play harmonic I would still play zealot I think. Redundancy is key in Survival, and you don't want all the same answers, that's why I said 1 Feeder and 1 Loxodon for life gain, and the same reason I won't drop Bone Shredder for Shriekmaw, but will play both, and probably FTK if red stays.

Survival FTW, Writing decklists FTL.

Anarky87

10-11-2007, 12:03 AM

That's all true, especially the last part. I've never felt truly blown out of any matchup. If I do lose, it's usually by the slightest bit or there was something I could have done differently. GBW has been the current version I've been playing lately. But hearing that Doran has been performing well, I'll be sure to pick some of those up.

From the people that have played it, has 3 Shriekmaw's been too many? I was thinking 2 at most, as 3 would just seem to clutter my hand with possibly useless 'Terrors.' Upon Lorwyn becoming legal, do you think you'd keep the Thoughtsiezes in the board for combo, or move them to the MD?

10-11-2007, 12:45 AM

I still play red in my deck. I plan on keeping it that way for a while, until I really start having problems, or GBW proves itself to me. I think Anger is too important in the control matchup.

This is why I'm currently running GBW with Anger. :) Currently, GBW is a phenomenal color combination for Survival. I just still find it soo slow. Not having haste feels like I'm getting Time Walked every turn. Technically though, Anger isn't the only thing I'm splashing red for, but I think the other red slot is completely justified. List will come at the end of the post.

Now to address some issues:

@ Life gain creatures.

The life gain slot is unique compared to the other slots regarding traditional Survival slot ideology. Generally, you work to run as many slots that as you can that are beneficial in a variety of ways. However this is not the case with a life gain slot. When you're needing to gain life, I can assume that you're in danger of losing the game. That said, you need the cheapest option available to ensure you can recur him quickly and efficiently. I myself am currently using Darkheart Sliver and Loxodon Hierarch. By itself, it is the cheapest option of all of them and therefore is most best option available as it is the cheapest to recur. That is what this slot is primarily for. I also run Harmonic Sliver as well, so that makes it better.

Spike Feeder is fine because it gets an extra life and is a 2/2 under Humility, but I'd rather pay five mana to recur a life gain target rather than six.

Loxodon Hierarch is also really good, but I don't think it can be played on it's own as a life gain target. It is much too expensive to recur him on his own, so I believe you need to leave that to Darkheart Sliver. It happens to be fantastic to attribute Darkheart with Hierarch, though.

So, to answer the question, I play Zealot and Hooligan over Harmonic. When I play vial Keldon Vandals gets the hooligan slot. Not being able to recur my hate seems bad to me. I know if I play more slivers it gets better, but your opponent can also 'counter' the 2nd one by offing the Harmonic you have in play. If I did play harmonic I would still play zealot I think. Redundancy is key in Survival, and you don't want all the same answers, that's why I said 1 Feeder and 1 Loxodon for life gain, and the same reason I won't drop Bone Shredder for Shriekmaw, but will play both, and probably FTK if red stays.

I find it ironic you mention redundancy in the same paragraph of mentioning you're using two slots on something that can, and should, obviously be handled with one. It doesn't make sense to waste a slot when you can make much better use of it. Harmonic may not be able to recur itself, but neither can Tin Street Hooligan, but Tin Street doesn't have the option of being sacrificed for three life, which is a really appealing aspect that the slivers give you. Also about Harmonic is that running that, assuming Darkheart is also run, effectively gives you two Naturalizes as well. Turning two slots into life gain and Naturalize at the same time seems a helluva lot better than running two different life gain slots and then two different artifact/enchantment destruction slots.

Also, I don't get running a combination of Shriekmaw and Bone Shredder together as opposed to just Shriekmaw and Big Game Hunter. People act like Shriekmaw is just a 1B instant, and entirely forget that you can actually cast it for 4B. This is a mana-intensive deck, and having the mana to hardcast him isn't difficult at all.

Regarding Feeder and Hierarch, that is acceptable, because one at least fulfills a different role in the deck. However, something like two Spike Feeders would not be.

Now, regarding my own decklist that I've been working on since Lorwyn was first spoiled. It doesn't have much testing behind it so please don't go harsh on it as it probably isn't anywhere near optimal yet, but so far I've been pleased.

GBWr Survival

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis

4 Treefolk Harbringer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
1 Doran, the Seige Tower
2 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Masticore/Flametongue Kavu
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Darkheart Sliver
1 Quirion Ranger

4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
5 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
1 Goblin Pyromancer
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer

For the most part, the maindeck is self-explanitory. I'm testing the land count at 19 right now thanks to Treefolk Harbinger, and so far I am fine with it. Some people like Harbinger; some don't. I'm personally happy with him so far, as he is also a solid lategame topdeck because he fetches Doran. If they end up being bad though, I'll simply go back up to 20 land and switch them with Nimble Mongoose. I'm contemplating adding another Doran in the deck, which would probably go over the direct damage removal slot (Masticore/FTK). The other red slot I mentioned earlier was Magus of the Moon, which is just reeeedonkulous right now. At eight nonbasics it isn't too huge of a deal on my own considering if I'm casting the card I can play around it just fine, and it also allows me to not fetch the Taiga for Anger which is nice. The removal suite is doing fine so far. Actually, it's doing more than fine; it's insane. 4 StP, 2 Shriekmaw, 1 BGH, and a direct damage creature. I'll be damned if I lose to a creature-based dec. StP could theoretically be replaced with Thoughtseize in the maindeck, but I guess it's a matter of preference. I prefer having my opponent gain life rather than me lose two life. I like BGH now. BGH was shitty for long time. Then they printed Tarmogoyf and Sutured Ghoul all of a sudden became a good creature. Then wtf, BGH is a good target. The Masticore/FTK slot is simply there the random stuff that the other creatures can't hit, like Dark Confidant or something random. It's by far the weakest slot in the deck, but the option to mow down an opponent's army is nothing to scoff at.

The sideboard seems sloppy and disorganized, but it's not bad. I tried to balance everything out the best I could, which would lead to it's ugly look. I tried to make it so the deck could have enough tools against combo and control as possible post-board, and it's been good so far. I had Pernicious Deed in the sideboard for a while but recently cut it as I feel it's overkill against the decks I'd bring it in against. Given how much removal my maindeck stocks as is, I don't foresee very many problems with such strategies, and it's all but useless against control.

CynicalSquirrel

10-11-2007, 01:32 AM

I'll have to try the red splash, because as a longtime BGR Survival player it really does just feel wrong when you can't turn your creatures sideways right away. The 4c mana base still seems dicey to me, but I'll have to give it a shot anyways. Magus of the Moon was the one card I really missed when playing 43 land, since it's just such a random auto win against them. I didn't find myself ever really wishing I had Flametongue Kavu though, and I doubt it'll find its way back into my list. Darkheart Sliver is another card I've yet to try.

The thing I love about Survival decks is that they can only improve with each new set being built. Survival has already seen the worst hosers it possibly can with Pithing Needle, Suppression Field, etc. Now it only improves because the creature pool is just constantly increasing and there's always new goodies to test out.

from Cairo

10-11-2007, 01:40 AM

I would definitely take Masticore over FTK in that spot, if for no other reason than the ability to pay an extra green mana when digging for something to pump Goyf, otherwise the list has no Artifacts.

With Shriekmaw, Swords, Big Game Hunter and Masticore, I would imagine you can grab an answer to just about any creature in the format.

bigbear102

10-11-2007, 11:35 AM

Pithing Needle, Suppression Field, etc.

and Krosan Grip.

I played 4 color up until the EPIC tourney, which has been pretty much since the Running GAGG in the beginning of the year. The mana base really never hurt me, I just cut white because it wasn't giving me enough to justify playing it. Obv with Lorwyn it will be plenty to justify in Teeg and Doran. I wouldn't worry about the 4c mana base, as all you really want is 1 mountain in play anyway, and there's not any hard color requirements besides Doran. Birds are also extremely powerful, and play Quirion Ranger, he makes 4 colors much easier.

10-11-2007, 01:18 PM

Not to mention white gives access to Swords to Plowshares, which happens to be some good given that Tarmogoyf is the best card in the format. Seriously, I honestly believe a deck like this will be tier 1 within the next few months. It just has all the tools necessary to reliably beat every upper-tier deck.

Joon

10-11-2007, 02:54 PM

Here's my current list, I think that Tao's Disruptionbase (4 Therapys 3 Extirpates) is stronger than everything else if you play Thoughtseize instead of Therapy and play them along with Wasteland.

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland

4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
1 Squee
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
1 Genesis
1 Loxodon Hierarch

3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Deed
4 StoP
3 Sensei Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate

//random Sideboard, something like
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Yixlid Jailer (maybe?)
xyz Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic SLiver

I don't know if the lonely Tribe-Elder is worth the slot, could become Doran, the Smashing Punpkin or another Hierarch. Wasteland in combination with Thoughtseize, Wastetland and Deed is extremely powerful in the main. You can just destroy what annoys you and extirpate it then. Not to mention that decks like ***** or Breakfast tend do croak to thing like Wasteland Tropical/Tundra and Extirpate it then. Kinda mighty.

diffy

10-13-2007, 02:32 PM

I don't really like Extirpate/Wasteland in here. Although Extirpate is good against some decks (Breakfast, Ichorid and such) I wouldn't like to have it Mainboard because it is Card Disadvantage most of the time.
I tend to play a way more controlish version myself:

// Lands

4 Bayou
4 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures

1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Shriekmaw
1 Spike Feeder
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

1 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wall of Roots

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Eternal Witness
2 Wall of Blossoms

// Spells

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard

4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize
1 Rule of Law

Up to the choices:

Now this version clearly is based upon Taos older lists too but they differ a little. For instance I only play 2 Sensei's Divining Tops because they are very mana hungry and because you don't want to see one in the early game at all.

Mainboard

- The lone Birds of Paradise is there to optimize early Survival use. You will find you to be playing a Survival and then to search for Squee and then to have only 1 mana open quite often in the early game, and I don't really want to waste that speed. Also it enables nice plays if in the opening hand (t2 Doran, the Siege Tower for example) but I'd rather have Sakura-Tribe Elder for main ManaSpeed because it ensures you the landdrop (can't be killed like Birds) and is completely awesome against Ichorid Combo.

- Shriekmaw and Spike feeder are there over Bone Shredder and Loxodon Hierarch because reccursion via Genesis is cheaper. Also, the added evasion and body of Shriekmaw are nice. You won't miss the body of the Hierarch often because you have fatter guys (Tarmogoyf, Doran). Another advantage of the Spike Feeder over Hierarch is that the Feeder breaks Goyf stalemates by pumping them.

- The Doran, the Siege Tower is there to replace the Loxodon Hierarch as semi-fat guy. He pumps your Tarmogoyfs and Walls which is nice, but his main purpose is really to be 5/5 for cmc3. Also, he is completely awesome against Ichorid Combo because he shuts down the namesake of the deck turning the Ichorids into 1/1s with haste which isn't that scary really.

- The lone Wall of Roots is there to be fat with Doran and to give you some additional ManaDevelopment in the early game by assuring that you can top and survival for example. This is still a testing slot though.

Sideboard

- Engineered Plague is there to come in for the Goblins Matchup (this deck isn't completely gone yet) and for the Empty the Warrens based combo Matchups. It is also nice against Ichorid (Plague on Zombie, Zombie, Illusion, Horror) and Cephalid Breakfast (Wizard).

- Extirpates are there to come in against Life from the Loam based decks, Ichorid, Combo, Breakfast and all other random decks relying on one or two key cards.

- The Yixlid Jailer is there to be the Survival Silver Bullet that (nearly) completely and singlehandetly wins the game comma tm against Ichorid and Breakfast

- The one Deed is there to supplement the 3 in the main in Matchups such as Ichorid, Empty the Warrens combo and all Aggro-Control decks.

- Gaddocks come in against Dread Return, Combo and Landstill (not against 4c though)

- Thoughtseize is there for Combo and Control

- The lone Rule of Law is a test slot that can be fiddled around with (like another Creature-Sliver Bullet) but I like to have different types of hate cards against combo so that they need to have several tutor effects in order to get rid of all of them.

I'd be glad to hear any sort of comments, especially on how to fit in another one or 2 Thoughtseize into the main (or if this is needed at all).

Tacosnape

10-13-2007, 03:25 PM

I personally subscribe to a theory once stated in an article I read that said, in essence, "Walls have no place in any format where combo exists," or something to that effect. Now it'd be "Creatures with Defender," I suppose, but I still subscribe to this theory.

On to the Yixlid Jailer. My question on the Yixlid Jailer is this - How often can you Survival it up before Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast goes off?

diffy

10-13-2007, 03:44 PM

On to the Yixlid Jailer. My question on the Yixlid Jailer is this - How often can you Survival it up before Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast goes off?

In my testing against Ichorid, it never really was a problem... Therapy and Thoughtseize as well as the occasional Swords to Plowshares really slow them down and post board they are very likely to have boarded out the Dread Return package so that they are basically even slower.
I haven't tested all that much against Breakfast because I'm like the only one playing it over here but from my experience playing Breakfast, it isn't really all that fast of a deck especially not if you want to play around Pernicious Deed, discard and Spot Removal.

I personally subscribe to a theory once stated in an article I read that said, in essence, "Walls have no place in any format where combo exists," or something to that effect. Now it'd be "Creatures with Defender," I suppose, but I still subscribe to this theory.

What would you then replace them with? The problem is that if you replace them with more discard, you have less creatures to start the Survival Chain with... I find this a problem even now already and fear that if you take out creatures, it would get even worse. Basically this would mean that you'd have to replace them with some other creatures but the available options are all pretty narrow (Gaddock Teeg, Glowrider) and either only good against combo or not at all. I guess the Walls are sort of a hole filler to be okay in any matchup (Wall of Blossoms still is an awesome sacrifise to Cabal Therapy) but not really shining in any one.