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Nightmare
04-03-2007, 12:06 PM
The Life From the Loam archetype has been tried many times, and many ways in Legacy. While no single deck has risen to the top, the gameplan is solid, and has shown impressive results in European tournaments.

Top8 (http://www.germagic.de/dc/event.php?event=BoW+Liga+-+Legacy+Dezember+2006) Bazaar of Wonders Legacy event, Germany

Top8 (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2572) January Iserlohn Legacy Tournament, Germany

Threads:
Columbus Confinement (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5013)

UGb Aggro DAT (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5297)

0-0-4 Drop (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5297)

Terrageddon (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4773)

Eternal Garden (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3668)

43land.dec (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4020&highlight=43land)

Use and Abuse
Life from the Loam has the ability to generate some insane card advantage while putting cards in you graveyard. Here is a brief list of typical cards to use and abuse with LftL:

Cyclying Lands for the LftL draw engine.
Threshold land (Barbarian Ring, Cephalid Colluseum) recursion.
Glacial Chasm protection.
Manland (Mishra's Factory, Nantuko Monestary) recursion.
Wasteland recursion.
Gifts Ungiven Piles with Academy Ruins.
Wild Mongrel for recurring pump.
Solitary Confinement + LftL + Cycle Lands for a perpetual lock.
Inuition to fetch LftL and Cycle lands.
Dredge Cards or cards with Flashback - Cabal Therapy is a prime candidate.
Wonder, Genesis, and other Incarnations.


Discussion Question: What other cards can LftL abuse?

Playing against LftL
Here are some prime and popular choices for negating the LftL card drawing engine. Be wary of the opponent cycling a land (or otherwise drawing at instant speed) to save his LftL from your yard hate.

Tormod's Crypt
Extirpate - likely the best LftL hate card in currently printed
Leyline of the Void
Phyrexian Furnace


Discussion Question: Against LftL decks, are broad, yet imperfect, solutions like Tormod's Crypt better than focused hate like Extirpate?

Discussion Question: What type of deck can best abuse LftL? Aggro, Aggro-Control, or Control?

Discussion Question: Is LftL best as the focal point of a deck or is it better as a support card?

SpikeyMikey
04-04-2007, 01:33 PM
After having done a little testing with 43land, I've come to the the conclusion that the best way to beat LftL decks is not to attack LftL. It is nearly impossible to *actually* remove it, because of the cycling lands that allow them to dredge it back to their hand whenever they want. What I ended up settling on for my aggro deck was Ankh of Mishra, although I considered Tsabo's Web for some time as well. Against 43land, Ankh is the superior choice, I think, although the argument could be made for Web in matchups where the LftL player was not boarding Zuran Orbs. Cards like Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Back to Basics, which attack their manabase as a whole are going to be more effective than trying to remove LftL, because wide hosers were printed for nonbasic lands, whereas there is no wide hoser for sorceries(Squeeze doesn't really affect LftL decks). The only workable RFG solution, as far as I'm concerned, is Planar Void, which requires you to be playing black of course.

Bane of the Living
04-04-2007, 06:24 PM
I agree, even Extirpate can be worked through with Chalice of the Void and Burning Wish. The secret to beating a loam deck is attacking the nonbasic lands it plays. A good clock with Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Back to Basics or any other non basic hoser will usually be your best bet. Most loam decks also rely on Artifact or Enchantments for support so keeping a good amount of hate in your board will go along way. With Enchantress seeing play again I'd go as far as saying Tranquility is a fine sb option.

Awesomator
04-04-2007, 07:01 PM
Against 43 land.. the mulch and LFTL build, when I play goblins I board in chalice and work toward setting it at 2 along with my other land disruption, usually port.

MattH
04-08-2007, 02:02 AM
Against 43 land.. the mulch and LFTL build, when I play goblins I board in chalice and work toward setting it at 2 along with my other land disruption, usually port.

You set a chalice at 2 while playing a deck BASED off of 2-mana sorceries?

Tao
04-08-2007, 05:11 AM
You set a chalice at 2 while playing a deck BASED off of 2-mana sorceries?


Hmm, I didn't know that new Goblin builds were BASED on 2-Mana-sorceries ; )


Against 43 land.. the mulch and LFTL build, when I play goblins I board in chalice and work toward setting it at 2 along with my other land disruption, usually port.

That plan won't work. There is no way that you use your Mana disruption against 43-lands. They have Exploaration and Mana Bond, so they won't care if you trade 2 of your Mana against one of theirs. The only one who uses Ports in this matchup is the 43-land-guy.

And they have recurring Wastelands so that any of your Nonbasics will get destroyed ASAP. It is really hard to get to 4 Mana against 43-lands deck as you will probably need 6 Basic mountans for it to work through Wastelands and Ports. It may very well be too late when you finally reach them.

Edit:

This should be close to Sascha's latest build. It was successfully played in 2 medium local tournaments (25 players).

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Savannah
3 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [UL] Treetop Village
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [R] Taiga
1 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal

// Spells
4 [US] Exploration
4 [EX] Manabond
3 [SH] Mulch
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [US] Gamble

1 Meta / Gamble Slot: (Additonal Fetchland, Additional Cycleland, Akroma's Vengeance, Armageddon, Chalice of the Void, Ancient Grudge)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [5E] Armageddon
SB: 2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [4E] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void

Radley
04-08-2007, 12:33 PM
Tao, how about adding crucible of worlds just in case your opponent gets a CotV out with 2 counters?

Tao
04-08-2007, 01:05 PM
Yep, I remember. He had a Crucible in the Sideboard and it was good.

But after the last tourneys we agreed on adding additional Chalices of the Void to the SB to have something to fight against Burn and Tendrils-Combo. I have cuttet a 3-Sphere and the crucible for it. I wouldn't know what else to cut from the SB, all slots are needed imo.

MattH
04-08-2007, 03:32 PM
Hmm, I didn't know that new Goblin builds were BASED on 2-Mana-sorceries ; )
No. But 43 land is.

sammiel
04-08-2007, 03:39 PM
No. But 43 land is.


Reading comprehension FTW. The exact phrase you quoted makes it pretty clear what he is talking about.


Against 43 land.. the mulch and LFTL build, when I play goblins I board in chalice and work toward setting it at 2 along with my other land disruption, usually port.


Bolded the significant part.

MattH
04-08-2007, 04:00 PM
I'll blame it on the lateness of the hour, but yeah, my bad. All apologies.

Awesomator
04-08-2007, 08:51 PM
I was reffering to usiong rishadan port until I can get to 4 mana. Stalling anyway I can and then cutting off loam and mulch is very very good. The deck is incredibly slow, and 4 mountains to cast it is usually not a problem, if they have rishadan port and you do too, you try to port their port in the upkeep. Between fetches and mountains in the deck, getting four untapped basics in my main phase is usually not a problem. The point of it is that 43 LAND IS BASED OFF OF 2 MANA SORCERIES. I have tested the match, and getting to 4 mana is not difficult, seeing as I run the 23 land goblin build.

georgjorge
04-09-2007, 02:47 PM
A card not mentioned in the opening post is Gamble. It fetches Life (or any land for that matter) for one red mana, allowing you to start the chain as soon as turn two, contrary to Intuition. Currently, I'm thinking about combining Gamble, Life from the Loam and Unearth (for Mongrel, Witness, Lavamancer, Confidant), because I see a lot of synergy here: Gamble - with a Unearth in hand - WILL give you any creature from your deck no matter what, and repeated Loam activations will fill your graveyard with Unearth targets.


Having said this, the biggest advantage of LftL decks seems to be recurring Wasteland, but I am still having problems with decks running nonbasics, as there aren't so many overall good lands you want to recur save for cycling lands, so you either run subpar cards (Zombie Infestation, Seismic Assault) or end up with a combo that keeps your hand full of lands but does nothing really game-altering (kind of like Land Tax). This brings me to another draw engine which might be useful for Loam: Scroll Rack. It worked with Land Tax, it could do well here. Although, you still need a way to keep those creatures at bay while you execute your card advantage plan, and Barbarian Ring or Tabernacle alone won't probably do...

UniversalSnip
04-10-2007, 04:25 AM
If you were really scared of tirp, you'd side in chromatic star or sphere.

Or just play bloody chalice, md, like you're supposed to.

Xero
04-11-2007, 07:00 PM
I can't believe that 43 Lands is the best Loam based deck, considering its crappy combo match-up. But I'm also not sure what the "best Loam deck" is. I think Terrageddon variants have been the most successful overall, is this the way to go? Maybe a GRB Aggro-Loam port from Extended?

Bane of the Living
04-11-2007, 09:25 PM
I can't believe that 43 Lands is the best Loam based deck, considering its crappy combo match-up. But I'm also not sure what the "best Loam deck" is. I think Terrageddon variants have been the most successful overall, is this the way to go? Maybe a GRB Aggro-Loam port from Extended?

Id go with what your refering to as the port. Sexy Rector developed a deck extremely close to the versions run in extended. Instead of using creatures as kill conditions you utilize Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Roots for card draw, mana, and surviving the early game.

It seems to be your best bet since you run black for Duress and Therapy. The other loam variations have a bad combo matchup.

Finn
04-11-2007, 09:30 PM
I have found that Jotun Grunt is an excellent cardagainst Loam. If you have white, this should already be in your board, so what's all the hubbub?

Hanni
04-11-2007, 10:10 PM
I like Aggro Dredge-a-Tog myself. It uses Loam more as utility than a crutch. The combo matchup is fairly solid, especially postboard. The Goblins matchup is solid, as well as Threshold. It's also very fun. It's just not very popular.

lavafrogg
04-12-2007, 02:32 AM
Loam decks are the control decks of Legacy. All of the versions are fundamentally identical and they all lose to combo. They lost the combo match up and they gained superiority over anything with creatures. It is a trade that was worth it.
The deck follows the basic plan
1. LftL and lands
2. Disruption-Geddon, smallpox, discard, chant, solitary
3. Win- seismic, creatures,
In this order the deck has no way to beat a combo deck because the land advantage means nothing to an IGGy or Tide player. Against aggro this is huge due to the fact that they need to beat you before you drop things that cost mana and do stuff. Against control the LftL land plan is pure card advantage and cannot be overcome with a traditional engine.

To gain the combo match up back you have to lose someting else...paticularly the aggro or aggro control MUs. To rearange the priorities of the deck is to alter the Arc itself. Not cool people.

The card is designed to be a focal card of a deck because it is the Intuition/AK of this Legacy format that we play in. In the BBS lists Intuition/AK wa sthe reason the deck won it would conter some stuff...intuiton...ak....you have no hand I have 7 I win you lose. This is the same principle.
With cards in hand and graveyard counting towards your actual hand the card advantage it provides is imense.
In order to attack the deck you have to attack the engine that runs the deck itself. Exterpate is amazing but it does not stop the engine. It removes the key it removes the key. Graveyard hate is the simplest and most effective way to attack a loam deck. A well timed crypt can equal time walk time 2 and other hate like a jotun grunt loaming shaman or leyline can quickly spell disaster.

Well all of that rambling really has no point except that I love the Arch and that my loam deck switches cards colors and strategies every week and every strategy is remarkably similar but has the same pitfal as the rest.

Hanni
04-12-2007, 03:10 AM
Loam decks are the control decks of Legacy. All of the versions are fundamentally identical and they all lose to combo. They lost the combo match up and they gained superiority over anything with creatures. It is a trade that was worth it.

How can you generalize all Loam decks? While I know there are many variants that do have a bad combo matchup, there are far too many applications of Loam to simply say "all Loam decks lose to combo." Maybe decks based solely around Loam have a bad combo matchup. Not all decks with Loam are based around Loam. You add some disruption (Duress, Chalice, whatever) and a clock (Terravore, Nimble Mongoose, whatever) and the deck will do well vs combo.

Decks with Life from the Loam are not necessarily about land advantage in every application. Many times, it's their simply as as a card advantage resource... i.e Wasteland, Lonely Sanbar, etc. Loam reads 1G: Draw 3 cards, which happen to be lands. This can be transfered into many different aspects of card advantage.


To gain the combo match up back you have to lose someting else...paticularly the aggro or aggro control MUs. To rearange the priorities of the deck is to alter the Arc itself. Not cool people.


It's called hybridization. In gaining a stronger combo matchup, a deck doesn't necessarily weaken it's other matchups significantly. I think decks like Terravore and DAT are perfect examples of this.

The only argument I agree with you with is your assessment of it's vulnerability to yard hate. Some decks have tools to deal with this (like Burning Wish) while other decks are not necessarily dependant on the Loam engine. Not all Loam variants use Loam as a crutch. However, graveyard hate is something that is rather effective vs most variants of Loam. This doesn't mean a Loam deck loses just because someone pops a Crypt though.

lavafrogg
04-13-2007, 01:41 AM
"How can you generalize all Loam decks? While I know there are many variants that do have a bad combo matchup, there are far too many applications of Loam to simply say "all Loam decks lose to combo." Maybe decks based solely around Loam have a bad combo matchup. Not all decks with Loam are based around Loam. You add some disruption (Duress, Chalice, whatever) and a clock (Terravore, Nimble Mongoose, whatever) and the deck will do well vs combo. "
All good loam decks in legacy have the same ideas to set up a life from the loam and win.
Terrageddon: set up loam and geddon or to sit behind a confinement
Tog:Gain CA while sitting behind loam and small aggro creatures to trade with other aggro or put up a horrible clock against combo.
Garden Varients: Gain land advantage
Every deck with LftL either uses it as a main card advantage engine or is just a bad midrange aggro deck that cannot race a combo deck.
Even the dismall disruption that it can muster can be fought through by a non permanant playing opponent. Light conterspells or light hand disruption is nothing especially when in order to race the combo deck the cards have a strong chance to be dredged before too much CA can take place.

"Decks with Life from the Loam are not necessarily about land advantage in every application. Many times, it's their simply as as a card advantage resource... i.e Wasteland, Lonely Sanbar, etc. Loam reads 1G: Draw 3 cards, which happen to be lands. This can be transfered into many different aspects of card advantage."
It is still land advantage, which can only be played by a restricting special action, be it cycling advantage, thinning advantage, damage prevention,or any other versitile land it is still land whichbasically means you have a yawgmoths agenda in play and you have to pay mana to use it.

How much mana does any of this cost. The deck feeds off setting up for the first couple turns then burying its opponent in the CA that LftL provides. The ability to never miss a land drop while building momentum is the decks strongest point but the utility lands that the deck uses are useless against decks that want little interaction ie:Tide, IGGY or life.

I do love loam decks and the new deck placed on starcitygames is a hoot to play. I have played a tog based off of the old Bardo list that was more haunting echoes oriented but i hate losing, I mean...I dont know I am just frusterated that my favorite card, loam, is not as broken as it should be.

I beleive that a deck that abuses the early acceleration of exploration plus a mox diamond or two, the power of intuition or gifts and a stron loam engine can be made to fight through hate and combo of all sorts but I am still on a list.
I did top eight in a lotus tourney in phoenix with a list that ran research and mystical/enlightened tutor. Using explorations and diamonds you ramped mana and then researched in bombs and then forced your opponent to deal with them.
The list was something like
4 exploration
2 diamond
4 nostolgic dreams
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 mystical tutor
3 enlightened tutor
2 gifts ungiven
4 loam
1 research
1 turbulent dreams
1 regrowth
1 wrath
1 decree of justice
1 disk
1 elephant grass and land
The deck is amazing long game but the early game is shakey with a research plan the sideboard was all one ofs and usually costed a couple mana.

lukatron2
04-16-2007, 01:07 AM
"How can you generalize all Loam decks? While I know there are many variants that do have a bad combo matchup, there are far too many applications of Loam to simply say "all Loam decks lose to combo." Maybe decks based solely around Loam have a bad combo matchup. Not all decks with Loam are based around Loam. You add some disruption (Duress, Chalice, whatever) and a clock (Terravore, Nimble Mongoose, whatever) and the deck will do well vs combo. "
All good loam decks in legacy have the same ideas to set up a life from the loam and win.
Terrageddon: set up loam and geddon or to sit behind a confinement
Tog:Gain CA while sitting behind loam and small aggro creatures to trade with other aggro or put up a horrible clock against combo.
Garden Varients: Gain land advantage
Every deck with LftL either uses it as a main card advantage engine or is just a bad midrange aggro deck that cannot race a combo deck.
Even the dismall disruption that it can muster can be fought through by a non permanant playing opponent. Light conterspells or light hand disruption is nothing especially when in order to race the combo deck the cards have a strong chance to be dredged before too much CA can take place.

"Decks with Life from the Loam are not necessarily about land advantage in every application. Many times, it's their simply as as a card advantage resource... i.e Wasteland, Lonely Sanbar, etc. Loam reads 1G: Draw 3 cards, which happen to be lands. This can be transfered into many different aspects of card advantage."
It is still land advantage, which can only be played by a restricting special action, be it cycling advantage, thinning advantage, damage prevention,or any other versitile land it is still land whichbasically means you have a yawgmoths agenda in play and you have to pay mana to use it.

How much mana does any of this cost. The deck feeds off setting up for the first couple turns then burying its opponent in the CA that LftL provides. The ability to never miss a land drop while building momentum is the decks strongest point but the utility lands that the deck uses are useless against decks that want little interaction ie:Tide, IGGY or life.

I do love loam decks and the new deck placed on starcitygames is a hoot to play. I have played a tog based off of the old Bardo list that was more haunting echoes oriented but i hate losing, I mean...I dont know I am just frusterated that my favorite card, loam, is not as broken as it should be.

I beleive that a deck that abuses the early acceleration of exploration plus a mox diamond or two, the power of intuition or gifts and a stron loam engine can be made to fight through hate and combo of all sorts but I am still on a list.
I did top eight in a lotus tourney in phoenix with a list that ran research and mystical/enlightened tutor. Using explorations and diamonds you ramped mana and then researched in bombs and then forced your opponent to deal with them.
The list was something like
4 exploration
2 diamond
4 nostolgic dreams
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 mystical tutor
3 enlightened tutor
2 gifts ungiven
4 loam
1 research
1 turbulent dreams
1 regrowth
1 wrath
1 decree of justice
1 disk
1 elephant grass and land
The deck is amazing long game but the early game is shakey with a research plan the sideboard was all one ofs and usually costed a couple mana.

I'd have to totally agree with Hanni here. You can't just clump all loam decks into one category. Some of them are way more aggro, some control, some aggro control. And while they all abuse loam, the decks are entirely different in match-up's and the way you play the deck, and even the way you use life from the loam to some extent. Now I saw the loam decks grouped into this big pile and I can see how some of them would be grouped togeather (I.E. Columbus Confinement and 0-0-4 drop).I also noticed that the survival decks are grouped into one as well. Now I can see how you can group all of the survival decks into one archtype because although they are different decks and some of them use many different card choices and utilize different strategies and creatures, most of them are similar enough and play out somewhat the same and have a not so good combo match up...Grouping LfTL in one "archtype" is like putting Madness, Threshold, and Fish into one group and putting it as [ATW] Aggro-control... just my two cents.

Bane of the Living
04-16-2007, 08:02 PM
We should just take Hanni's deck out since its the only list that doesnt use LftL as its focal point. Its an aggro control deck that has loam in it. Really it has about as much to do in this atw thread as Übermadness, another aggro deck with loam simply in it.

You could argue that Eternal Garden could come off since it revolves moreso around Crucible but thats because its designed to run with only one loam.

lavafrogg
05-07-2007, 07:36 AM
Wow how bad did HulkFlash crap on most loam decks not playing heavy black...no wait all loam decks.

Weekend Daddy
05-07-2007, 08:55 PM
Wow how bad did HulkFlash crap on most loam decks not playing heavy black...no wait all loam decks.

What deck DIDN'T Flash take the proverbial dump on.

I'm adding Leylines to my board. here's what I have right now:

4: Chalice of the Void
4: Leyline Of The Void
3: Zuran Orb

WISHBOARD:
1: Demonfire
1: Devastating Dreams
1: Life From The Loam
1: Wildfire

I know Chalice and Void HURT this deck severely, but if it hurts combo more than it will me, I'm all for slowing them down. At this point, ANY HELP is good help. Plus, it hurts reanimators/Polar Express.
I'm going to test this board at a tournament this week. I'm not sure HOW MANY Flash decks will be there (as they ran a Future Sight release last week), and our metagame is a bit weird. I know we have reanimators, and that's enough for me to run leylines.

If I wasn't going to Afghanistan in a couple weeks, I'd be experimenting with Bayou's and Duress and Cabal Therapy. I'll bring the decks with me. The first Loam deck in a literal warzone.

I'm just happy I opted NOT to go to the GP this year.

bigbear102
05-08-2007, 12:18 AM
Leyline doesn't hurt this deck... it only hurts the opponents.

Happy Gilmore
06-22-2007, 03:30 PM
Since Future Sight I think it might be worth investigating agro loam a little more thouroughly.

Horizon Canopy
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker

and even Narcomeoba and Bridge might be worth looking into.

Before Flash after the spoilers for Future Sight was revealed I threw together this decklist:


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble mongoose
3 Tombstalker
4 Wild Mongrel
2 Genesis

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Life from the Loam
4 Darkblast
4 Solitary Confinment

4 Mox Diamond
4 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tranquil Thicket
1 Savannah
1 Plains
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Barren Moor


B/G/R might also be good, but its hard to tell at this point without any testing. Any one else have a take on this?

Berzerked
06-22-2007, 04:04 PM
Ya, I threw together a similar list (almost a direct port from Extended Aggro Loam):

2 Taiga
1 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

3 Seismic Assault
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam

Obviously the numbers and some card choices would have to be messed around with, but it seems to me like it's got plenty of answers to the current meta.

TheCramp
07-05-2007, 04:24 PM
Ya, I threw together a similar list (almost a direct port from Extended Aggro Loam):

Obviously the numbers and some card choices would have to be messed around with, but it seems to me like it's got plenty of answers to the current meta.

how about this:

Critters and Kill (10-11)

Tamogoyf 4
Terrovore 4
Seismic Assault 2 or 3

Control (20)

Burning Wish 4
Devastating Dreams 3
Life From The Loam 3
Nourishing Dreams 1
Cabal Therapy 3
Duress 3
Engendered Explosives 3

Mana (27)

Exploration 2

Mox Diamond 4

Mire and Foothills 8
Taiga 3
Bayou1
Badlands 1
R Cycler 3
G cycler 1
Mountain 1
Forest 1
Swamp 1
Vorath's Stronghold 1

Side (15)

Life from the Loam
Devastating Dreams
Hull Breach
Nourishing Dreams
Duress
Pyroclasm
(9 other cards)

leaving 2 or 3 cards depending on the number of assaults. Therapy might not be wise, due the the low creature count. Eternal witness could be good, giving me access to my whole yard via stronghold. Therapy could be delirium skeins, because that card is insane with goyf and loam, and can come online turn 2 via exploration or Mox. It could just be bolt, as an instant for goyf. Or naturalize/grip I think I would lean towards 2 assaults, and 3 grips, because Chalice at two is a problem.

raharu
07-11-2007, 03:09 PM
I use LftL in a deck centric to Golgari Grave Troll (as the win-con, not a dredge piece). it kills turn 6 without fail and can punch your face in faster depending if you get a putrid imp with moldervine cloak or another evasive, cloaked beast. it looks nothing like these lists (18 land, 4 are Cabal Pits for removal). there are other places to use loam, and they are just as good.

Bane of the Living
07-11-2007, 10:47 PM
I use LftL in a deck centric to Golgari Grave Troll (as the win-con, not a dredge piece). it kills turn 6 without fail and can punch your face in faster depending if you get a putrid imp with moldervine cloak or another evasive, cloaked beast. it looks nothing like these lists (18 land, 4 are Cabal Pits for removal). there are other places to use loam, and they are just as good.

Im curious what most of the other cards in the deck are. From the sound of it you would be better off playing Ichorid for a aggro combo dredge deck. It can win turns 1-4 easily and fights through counterspells and creatures hate like it wasnt even there.

The Coming Curse
07-18-2007, 01:16 PM
I played one of these decks at the last legacy tournament in hadley, Ma and he was playing a more controlish version with fog like cards with nantuko monastery as a win con while i played a sui black deck. i seemed to find that once i dropped a few creatures all he could do was just save himself a few turns before i won. Also as usual discard seemed to disrupt his deck, but turn 1 ritual duress hymn seems to do that though

rureddy31
08-13-2007, 04:31 PM
Hello. This is actually my first post on this site. I'm not normally a very active Legacy player, but after success at the Canadian Nats side event, as well as GP Columbus, I'm starting to appreciate and enjoy this format more and more. Instead of playing a combo deck for GenCon, I decided I wanted to play a Loam control deck, and immediately fell in love with 43 land. However, I do not know how the deck has evolved, what is good, and what is bad. From what I gather, it seems Gamble is strong whereas Burning Wish is not...

Also, I'm not sold on the ideal sideboard. This is what I've come up with:
4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Tormod's Crypt

Anyway, the trouble I'm having is what to take out....I'd appreciate any help, advice, etc...

Regards,

Ryan Trepanier

Jopanges
08-21-2007, 07:46 PM
I am just going to post a very aggressive list ithout B splash and Devastating Dreams
The combo matchup (especialy TES) isn't as bad as it seems.
The only one real tough MU is Solidarity/Spring Tide.

Maindeck (60):
4 Taiga
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Kird Ape
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
1 Genesis
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault

Sideboard (15):
4 Pyroclasm
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip

Tacosnape
08-21-2007, 08:24 PM
Hello. This is actually my first post on this site. I'm not normally a very active Legacy player, but after success at the Canadian Nats side event, as well as GP Columbus, I'm starting to appreciate and enjoy this format more and more. Instead of playing a combo deck for GenCon, I decided I wanted to play a Loam control deck, and immediately fell in love with 43 land. However, I do not know how the deck has evolved, what is good, and what is bad. From what I gather, it seems Gamble is strong whereas Burning Wish is not...

Also, I'm not sold on the ideal sideboard. This is what I've come up with:
4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Tormod's Crypt

Anyway, the trouble I'm having is what to take out....I'd appreciate any help, advice, etc...

Regards,

Ryan Trepanier

I'm not even sure 43 Land can be considered to be on the same path of evolution as DDLC (Devastating Dreams Loam Control), as the color focus shifts drastically between the two. DDLC favors red, and the rest of the colors vary, often having a heavy element of black. 43 Land plays out a bit differently.

I've also always wondered why 43 Land didn't run Clear The Land. I ran it when I messed around with it online and found it to be something that eclipses the insanity level of Goblin Ringleader, as I'd frequently hit a variety pack of 4 lands (sometimes even 5!) and unload them all into play. Since you seem to be one of the major experts with the deck, what are your thoughts?

rureddy31
08-22-2007, 12:38 AM
I would hardly consider myself an "expert," although I have some experience playing the deck. Here's the porblem with Lay the Land. First off, it is not as good Mulch. 43 LAnd, first and foremost, plays the early game like a tempo deck. Being able to accel yourself isn't as important deacceling your opponent. Consequently, Mulch is so much better. Also, along the same lines, Mulch is also a way to find Life from the Loam. A Loam revealed off of Mulch is extremely key. Lay the Land does not have that advantage.

It is always important to consider that every spell you put in the deck HAS to be worth the spot. Every land spot that is taken up weakens the deck. It makes it more clunky, increases mulligans, etc... Consequently, it is not simply about putting in cards that are synergistic with lands, but instead putting in cards that fill a needed role. Example: Gamble gives the deck more consistency (Ironic eh? Gambling as consistency, I love it!!) Life from the Loam is the draw engine, Manabond + Exploration = Accelartion, and lastly Mulch which is essentially draw 4 for 2, but is probably the weakest spell in the deck.

Anyway, I'm always open to suggestions. I'm not going to lie, I was one of those shunning the inclusion of Gamble, as well as Burning Wish (which is still horrible btw).

Regards,

Ryan Trepanier

HuK
08-29-2007, 06:45 PM
I don't think that 43 lands or aggro loam is "the way to go". Personally i prefer Land Ho! much better, here is my list (and this is me (http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?creator=Simon%20Hohentanner)).

4 Taiga
2 Badlans
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
3 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
3 Devastating Dreams
1 Recoup
3 Seismic Assault
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
2 Engineered Explosives

SB:
1 Shattering Spree
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Regrowth
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Last Rites
1 Damnation
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Trinisphere
2 Engineered Explosives
2 free Slots (Pernicious Deed, Pithing Needle, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Powder Keg, Tormod's Crypt etc)


The most important question is: why should you run THIS instead of Aggro Loam or another loam built?

Well, this deck has solutions to almost every possible situation. With Burning Wish an Gamble both as 4 of you can answer threads very fast. You need much mana but with 4 Mox Diamond and 3 Exploration this isn't really a problem.

A short matchupanalysis:

blue based aggro controll: 50%. These decks have one big weakness: Explosives a 2. With 2 main and 2 side + tutors + disruption these decks aren't a big problem.
Deadguy Ale: 60% or better. Their only solution to come with our engine is Extirpate. You have Duress and manadenial. Easy to win.
Solidarity: Probably the worst matchup, but you can still win with your sideboard.
Goblins. Difficult to lose this one.
Aggro Decks (burn, RG Beatz, Zoo, Red Death usw). They are all very easy to beat, don't worry about them.
TES. They MUST kill with Tendrils and they have no proper solution to Trinisphere. I think this matchup is equal but i never lost it.
CRET Belcher: Same as TES.
Landstill. Very easy to beat, all versions.
Survival: Better for you again. Only Extirpate is dangerous.

slobad23
08-29-2007, 08:01 PM
well well - i was looking at germagic today and saw this "land ho" and took a look with the aid of "sample hand" tool. This was the first time i had actually used it/realised it was there. Now here you are on the source posting your first message with information i would love to get my grubby little loam dredging hands on.

I have seen the card abused in an aggro deck called "uber madness" which can be found all over http://morphling.de as it performed amazingly not so long ago. I don't really hear a lot about it now though. That didn't really seem like the way to go though - that kind of speed can easily be dealt with. Turn one roar of the wurm is all very well and good... but should the opponenet have an answer, you have spent all your resources on it. As well as that, the deck was light on threats, which made me love the inclusion of jotun grunt - placing those dredged threats back in to draw from your cycling lands was fantastic.

When I realised how much i liked grunt in a loam deck - i was thrilled to see Vromans list from the legacy prelims. There was something about it that cleared up some janky thinking I had about loam based decks. I loved the idea of witness recursion with genesis... and even then - witness is just nice to bring back all those lovely godies you have dredged away. I will stop pointing out the obvious now though - i hate it when people do that!

When I sampled your list, i noticed that you had two ways to produce black mana - did you never find that a problem with casting your duress turn one? (i have kind of already answered that because i never did... but your experience is much more than mine).

Devastating dreams seems awsome with life from the loam! and it is this card that made me want to built it to be more control than aggro (like "aggro loam" with terravore and 'goyf or "uber madness").

Without a lot of creatures though, that kind of took cabal therapy out of the picture - which i felt was a great shame. i didnt want to play birds of paradise and dark confidant... only to have them blown up by devastating dreams. Witness though, i am happy to let her die. i didn't personally think duress would be enough to beat combo though. Empty the warrens meets dreams and 'splosives which is fine i guess - if they can get storm of ten for tendrils, do you just shrug it off as a bad match up and hope to come up against something different for the rest of the day?

3 explorations because you have gamble?

Slobad23

HuK
08-30-2007, 07:36 AM
The combo matchup is a problem, that's right. But you can win it, you have 2 Trinispheres in your sideboard which are a 6 with gamble game 2. With Exploration and Mox you can cast one turn 2/3. Combined with Duress this is often enough. Game one Burning Wish -> Last Rites is a good play, but often too slow.

The sideboard has 2 free slots, with Chalice of the Void run here you can improve the TES matchup greatly.

3 Explorations because you just need one of them...or one Mox. You could run 4 but what should be cut for it? My deck already runs 61 cards....

Maveric78f
08-30-2007, 08:21 AM
I think that smallpox is one of the best cards for LftL if you go for the controlish option, as well as tarmogoyf, jotun grunt and mongrel for the control/aggroish version. But you'll have to choose. The controlish version can struggle easily against combo (hymn to tourach, explosives and Crime/Punishment are your main friends) but will face some problems against aggro decks (in particular goblins). The aggroish version will deal with no doubt against aggros, as you are playing the biggest creatures of magic but will face difficulties against combo decks.

That's how it works acoording to me.

slobad23
08-30-2007, 10:08 AM
3 Explorations because you just need one of them...or one Mox. You could run 4 but what should be cut for it? My deck already runs 61 cards....

Sensei's Divining top? are they really that good in the deck that they need to be played... I would have thought if the tops were needed that much - 3 would be better than 2.

I see what you mean with exploration not needing to be four - but when you mention cutting cards, i feel that the top is a candidate for the chop!

Please correct me if i'm wrong and taking the top out would turn the deck upside down.

Slobad23

HuK
08-30-2007, 11:29 AM
Sensei's Divining Top is awesome, it's anoter tutor in the deck. A hand with one top and lands and accleration but without tutors/loam is not bad because in the top three cards there is rarely nothing.

And of course you can see what you dredge with lftl, this can be important in the late game.

A bonus of the cards is its ability to protect your lftl from cards like Tormod's Crypt.

2 Tops fit in the manacurve perfectly.

rureddy31
08-30-2007, 11:58 PM
The way that I look at it, is every extra spell you have in your deck weakens your Threshold matchup...I have never played your list, granted, but it seems like Threshold would have a better matchup vs. your deck, than vs. 43 land. Your deck is much more fancier, but honestly, it just seems win more with cards like Seismic Assualt. If you have Loam recursion in a deck like 43 Land, you generally win without having to cast any actual spells...It's a huge advantage.

HuK
08-31-2007, 08:54 AM
Well Seismic Assault just beats any aggro deck in the format in it's the fastest finsher ( I had turn 5 wins^^). And the ******** matchup is nice, you have got Wasteland recursion, Engineered Explosvies + Tutors and Seismic Assault (=> Clock together with lftl). Of course spells aren't bad against NQG just because they have got counters and counterbalance lol.

Xero
09-05-2007, 02:29 AM
This (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14239.html) was just made non-Premium. How does this deck look to you all?

outsideangel
09-05-2007, 03:01 AM
This (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14239.html) was just made non-Premium. How does this deck look to you all?

I like it. I'm a sucker for Enlightened Tutor.

Is Grunt better than 'goyf in a deck like that? Also I'm very surprised there's not a singleton Confinement to tutor up.

Maveric78f
09-05-2007, 07:59 AM
I love enlightened tutor too but :
- his deck plays 21 mana producing lands and 1 additionnal land it's very low
- enlightened tutor is weak against counterspells, because of the card disadvantage, and even weaker against counterbalance, because counterbalance can counterl as well the tutor as the tutored card.

I'm in love with Life from the Loam from the beginning. I regret now not to have invest more money in it when it was boughtable at 1 or 2$. (I bought only 8 of them)

Anyway, I'm playing now an aggroish version with loam, but loam does not play the center role of the deck. My opponent will have to deal with my tarmos and grunts before trying to cut my drawing mechanics.

I provide here my original build. The observations I made and then the modifications I did.

Lands (22) :
1*volrath's stronghold
4*wasteland
2*tranquil thicket
2*barren moor
1*polluted delta
1*bloodstained mire
1*wooded foothills
2*windswept heath
3*bayou
1*scrubland
1*savannah
1*swamp
2*forest

Creatures (23) :
4*dark confidant
4*tarmogoyf
4*jotun grunt
4*nimble mongoose
4*wild mongrel
2*terravore
1*genesis

Other spells (15) :
3*life from the loam
4*putrefy
4*cabal therapy
4*duress

Sideboard (15) :
4*engineered explosives
4*extirpate
2*krosan grip
3*smother
2*hymn to tourach

- Finally I hated the mongrel in this build because I did not like to discard my card advantage gained with Life and mongrel is too much relying of having Life out.
- I noted too that I was too weak on first game against combo. And my sideboard was not enough to fill the gap.
- I was also quite often tempted to remove the terravores post side, but also sometimes was missing them post-board to have a good finisher.
- Hymn to tourach is definitely a bad sideboard card, as I never want them except against combo, and against combo, pithing needle looks better.

I can also explain some non-obvious choices I made and I kept:
- putrefy MD instead of smother or STP or vindicate. STP and vindicate involve white, and my mana base is crappy enough not to add more white producing lands and 2 lands to rely on creature removal is not enough. I refused smother because of it's 2CC and the lot of hate around the 2CC spells, from spell snare, to counterbalance and chalice of the void. Moreover, the ability to remove a chalice, an ensnaring bridge, a crucible, a winter orb, an equipment, a vial, a belcher, a smokestack, an engineered explosives, ... MD is appreciable.
- why not play werebear or enforcer or nantuko monastery ? I don't want to rely too much on MY graveyard. I am actually as much dependant on my opponent graveyard than mine, and most of the hate are useless for that (only jotun grunt and planar void are relevant and only the last one means gg against my MD)
- why duress and cabal instead of hymn to tourach ? Because I play a lot of creatures. Enough not to care about losing a nimble mongoose or a confidant when it hurts too much. Duress is obviously more complementary with cabal therapy. And the main reason is that they are both 1CC and nowadays, we absolutely need a first turn answer to combo.
- 4*extirpate in SB, not too much ? Extirpate is one of the best sideboard cards. I was even thinking about putting 1 or 2 MD. Extirpating tarmogoyfs of your opponent is golden, as well as bridges and ichorids, as well as life from the loam of the controlish versions, or wastelands for those who play crucible. Even against goblins, once you've removed all the ringleaders, you know that you'll win the late game.
- no deed ? even in SB ? Well, the main point of EE is to get rid of swarms of combo decks such as belcher/EtW and Ichorid. EE comes into play 1 turn earlier and this is golden.

Lands (22) :
1*volrath's stronghold
4*wasteland
2*tranquil thicket
2*barren moor
1*polluted delta
1*bloodstained mire
1*wooded foothills
2*windswept heath
3*bayou
1*scrubland
1*savannah
1*swamp
2*forest

Creatures (19) :
4*dark confidant
4*tarmogoyf
4*jotun grunt
4*nimble mongoose
1*eternal witness
1*terravore
1*genesis

Other spells (19) :
3*life from the loam
4*putrefy
4*cabal therapy
4*duress
2*sensei's divining top
2*darkblast

Sideboard (15) :
4*engineered explosives
4*extirpate
3*krosan grip
2*smother
2*pithing needle

The MD changes are :
-4 mongrels
-1 terravore
+1 eternal witness
+2 sensei
+2 darkblast

Explantations of the changes and the non changes :
- I kept the genesis for test, even with no way to discard it, because I think that I still have a high chance to dredge it, or to refuse it with sensei into play or even to hard cast it, and keep it, or cabal it directly to the grave. The main point is that I need 2 ways of recurring my threats and I am afraid of pithing needle and genesis is better from the card advantage point of view. The legendary of stronghold is also a good reason. Maybe I'll come later to play 2 stronghold and no genesis.
- I often wished to be able to recur my removal spells, and that's why I included 1 witness. Just in case of. It can be very helpful when the game goes long and even when I draw it quick, it's never a stupid card. The GG cost is a bit problematic but not more that the one of terravore.
- the senseis are incredible, when you have crap, you dredge or play a fetch. When you like your topdeck, you simply draw it. I still consider my deck as an aggro deck, so 2 are enough in order to help with confidant in long games and make card quality.
- the darkblast may look out of date with the regression of gobs but gob is still a not obvious MU and quite present in the metagame, dark confidant is more and more played, it's a good response to problematic small creatures that are more and more popular such as spectral lynx or mother of runes, and most of all, it's a such good tech in tarmogoyf battles. And I forgot, it owns sligh (ball lightning out, jackal pup out, grim lavamancer out, ...), which is a very bad MU.

Thank you for reading.

Soto
11-06-2007, 08:06 PM
Hey! Necro(Hammer) Time!
This deck really hasn't seen play at all in America from what I've seen. In Europe it's a different story : check out all of these Top8's and wins.
http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?type=Aggro%20Loam&format=Legacy

A few big tournaments in there. I tested the deck a little and I'm really surprised at how fast and strong it plays.
This is the list i'm playing which is exactly the second one in the link I posted.

creature [19]
1 Genesis
4 Kird Ape
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
3 Wild Mongrel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
4 Mox Diamond

1 Barbarian Ring
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
4 Forgotten Cave
1 Mountain
4 Taiga
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

You have plenty of land to pitch away to Mox Diamond for first turn Mongrel or Goyf (not the best play) and 6 lands for draw if you ever need or for dredging. Once the Seismic Assault - Life from the Loam engine goes off, there isn't much that can stand in its way.

It has very good game against Aggro and Control if you can get your beaters through counter magic. I really can't say much more about it since i'm so inexperienced with the deck, so I'll just leave the discussion open from here.

bigredmeanie
11-07-2007, 12:08 AM
how, if at all, does it beat combo? I've been interested in making some sort of Loam deck, and have been experimenting with different shells. A similiar one has come to mind, but w/o any form of real disruption I don't see how it beats combo.

Also, Kird Ape isn't good in today's environment. It could easily be replaced with Fanatic. Fanatic wins the Goyf war, and also goes to the dome when it matters.

Osse
11-07-2007, 12:43 AM
Red doesn't work in this deck anymore, not with so much Combo running around. I'm pretty sure the right color combination is BGw. Gaddock helps v Combo, especially when you run Mox Diamond, and Extirpate can hurt the Graveyard strategies that are EVERYWHERE. Cabal Therapy is obviously a must. P. Needle is also great v Belcher and Breakfast (in combination with whatever else). I'm not sure if Solitary Confinement should be used or not. Also, without Red, I'm not sure how bad the goblins matchup has become (Haven't tested yet). But yeah, the Combo matchup is what is holding this deck behind, unfortunately.

Landstill is also a beating game 1, game 2 gets better depending on your sideboard, Needle on Deed really hurts, and Gaddock is SO good v them, Crucible is really frustrating though (they can just overwhelm you if it gets late, and Wasteland lock is possible.). Can't really comment on any other matchups yet.

Van Phanel
11-07-2007, 07:31 AM
Landstill is also a beating game 1, game 2 gets better depending on your sideboard, Needle on Deed really hurts, and Gaddock is SO good v them, Crucible is really frustrating though (they can just overwhelm you if it gets late, and Wasteland lock is possible.). Can't really comment on any other matchups yet.

I can't quite agree with that. Landstill has two ways to win this matchup preboard (not including mulligans or incredibly bad draws).
a) Play Cunning Wish to find Extirpate on Loam and win (they can still lose to your aggromode, however they'll win more often than not).
b) Get Crucible out, have an answer to every single threat and your genesis must be in your bottom third. Then and only then they can win.

Without Extirpate the matchup is incredibly bad for Landstill, as a single Loam creates they same cardadvantage a Standstill does - and you can do so every turn. Also you play 4 Loam and they play 2 Crucible (if they do which isn't certain at all), so your chances to wastelock them are better than the other way round.

That was speaking of the preboard game, postboard they usually will have Extirpate and just win from there as their control mode is stronger than your aggro mode more often than not. They still can lose to an unaswered threat like a Goyf or a Terravore but in my experience this rarely happens.


The way bigger problem for Aggro-Loam howeer is the combo-matchup. The R-G build has answers to ETW postboard, but it loses to Tendrils/Belcher most of the time. You can treat the matchup like goblins did with adding Chalice. Mox Diamond even gives you a chance to get a first turn Chalice 1. As the deck tends to kill the goldfish around turn 5 this might be enough, especially with the help of Explosives to deal with Goblintokens. Switching to black while offering a strengthened combo-matchup weakens your other matchups as you lose Seismic Assault which is not at all win more, it is more like win now. Without it your aggro- and Goblinmatchup doesn't look that favorable anymore, Seismic Assault usually is what puts the nail in the coffin here. It always has to be answered against any deck except combo and even there it accelerates yur clock. (Plus, if in your graveyard it makes everybody's favorite creature grow.)

my 2 Cents

Van

Phantom
11-08-2007, 02:32 PM
So looking at the current meta (and knowing a tad about Loam) it seems to me that some sort of Grb AggroLoam running Duress and Thoughtseize would be pretty sweet right now. Basically trying to fit all the blue control and aggro control stomping elements into a black splash shell that could disrupt combo (and pack sideboard yard hate). The problem I'm having is that I haven't done the requisite legwork to see if this is viable or build a tight deck. Here's basically what I'm thinking:

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize (1 in the board)
3 Loam (ditto)
3 Devastating Dreams (ditto)
3 Burning Wish
4 Bolt

4 Goyf
3 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant
4 Witness/Mongoose
1 Genesis

4 Mox Diamond
X some wastelands, cycling lands (4 enough?), fetches, and duals (how important are basics and manlands because I was thinking about 0 of both)




Seismic Assault - I love this card but I'm not sure it works in the 3 color build. Also, I've often wondered if it isn't at least slightly a win more. I mean, if I have my Loam engine working and 6 ways to grab Dreams, am I really going to lose to aggro? I'd appreciate some thoughts here.

Cabal Therapy - Seems to have great synergy here (especially with Genesis, Witness, and Burning Wish) but I need my discard spots to be disrupting turn one, in order to get me to burning wish or chalice, and Therapy can't guarantee me that (especially game 1). I will definitely have at least one in the board. Am I wrong here?

Burning Wish - I love Burning Wish but am well aware of its shortcomings (slow, vulnerable to counters, clogs the board). I just think it is too perfect here. In my limited testing getting clogged with extra Dreams or Loams is a pain, but you always want access to them because of their insane power level. Giving access to Discard and Leyline killers ain't bad either. The nail in the coffin for me is that it can fight the new trend which is Extirpating my Loam.

Illissius
11-08-2007, 03:32 PM
You only have 20 slots left for land there, which I'm pretty sure is not enough. Most lists I've seen run 25 (yes, along with Diamonds), with four Wastes and eight cyclers. This is not to say that nothing else can work, but it's a useful point of reference. Personally, I'd cut the Bolts.

What about putting the last Thoughtseize main and using Therapy in the side instead?

Phantom
11-08-2007, 03:42 PM
You only have 20 slots left for land there, which I'm pretty sure is not enough. Most lists I've seen run 25 (yes, along with Diamonds), with four Wastes and eight cyclers. This is not to say that nothing else can work, but it's a useful point of reference. Personally, I'd cut the Bolts.

What about putting the last Thoughtseize main and using Therapy in the side instead?


Yeah, I'm not really sure about all the numbers and wasn't calculating on the fly. I left the 4th Thoughtseize off the main for two reasons. One, I thought the lifeloss of drawing 2 plus Confidant might be prohibitive. Two, I figured I might be wishing for discard at some point with no idea what their hand looks like or creature out for flashback purposes.

b4r0n
11-09-2007, 12:15 AM
I've found Volrath's Stronghold to be better than Genesis, especially with Confidants in the deck. It's also easier to get active, as you can either dredge into it or draw into it, unlike Genesis, which you have to dredge into.

As for the rest of the manabase, I've been running 6 cyclers and 2 Wastes. The idea is to maximize the chance of having lands that are useful (meaning not coming into play tapped or producing colorless mana), while still having a good chance of being able to dredge into the other lands as needed. It's been working pretty well.

Seismic Assault adds a combo finish to the deck. Drop it, Loam a couple times, win. It also provides the deck with repeated spot removal, which is nice too, of course. Triple red can sometimes be a pain, but with Moxen and Loam, you should have no problem dropping it by turn 4 at the latest. Also, if the triple red proves too problematic for your manabase, Land's Edge is a possible (or at least interesting) alternative.

So Phantom, my list looks more like:

4 Thoughtseize (Duresses in the board)
3 Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
4 Burning Wish
3 Seismic Assault
3 Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares

4 Goyf
3 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant

4 Mox Diamond
25 lands

The main problem I've had with the deck recently is Counterbalance. If they have a 2cc card on top, it shuts off most of your deck (both card advantage engines, more than half of your threats) and prevents you from finding an answer by shutting off Wish. Post-board you have Grips, of course, but still: losing games so easily to the current top deck is rather disheartening. In fact, this problem has made me lose interest in Loam based strategies in general for the time being. Any thoughts on this?

Phantom
11-09-2007, 01:31 AM
Thanks for all the info. Volrath's Stronghold does appear to be the better choice even though it's not card advantage. Done and done.

I'll try the / split on cyclers and Wastes. I'd like at least 3 wastes, but I might have to sacrifice it to support 3 colors.

I have played with Seismic Assault so I know how nuts it is, I'm just wondering how many games it wins for you that you wouldn't normally win. I mean, it's only good when you have the Loam engine going, and when you have the Loam engine going, the deck is already nuts.

@ Counterbalance: Clearly, Grip out of the board is the best thing, but one of the best things is to make them discard CB, Top, or a dig spell to go get them before they can find it. That's why I think the both Thoughtseize and Duress are must haves main with a solid wish discard target (and Reverent Silence is tough to beat if you can wish before CB hits) as well. CounterTop is basically a combo that needs to be assembled and discard can rip that combo apart.

b4r0n
11-09-2007, 03:34 AM
I have played with Seismic Assault so I know how nuts it is, I'm just wondering how many games it wins for you that you wouldn't normally win. I mean, it's only good when you have the Loam engine going, and when you have the Loam engine going, the deck is already nuts.
Assault is decent even without Loam, since the deck runs 25 lands. But you're right, in order for it to be really good, you have to have the Loam engine going.

But here's the thing: when you only have the Loam engine going, you're just drawing an extra card or two a turn, and dumping stuff in your yard. In my opinion, that alone isn't too nuts. It's certainly good, but it's not nuts. Seismic Assault is what lets you do something productive with the engine by affecting the game state (either board or life total).

I've personally found the speed and versatility of Assault to be worthwhile, but it might just me. I tend to play Loam as a relatively controllish deck, in which Assault is first used for controlling the onslaught of creatures and allowing me to stabilize. Once I've stabilized, it allows me to switch gears rapidly and win the game before my opponent can recover. Basically, it serves the same purpose as both Devastating Dreams (board control) and Terravore (quick win condition). This provides redundancy, flexibility, and inevitability.


@ Counterbalance: Clearly, Grip out of the board is the best thing, but one of the best things is to make them discard CB, Top, or a dig spell to go get them before they can find it. That's why I think the both Thoughtseize and Duress are must haves main with a solid wish discard target (and Reverent Silence is tough to beat if you can wish before CB hits) as well. CounterTop is basically a combo that needs to be assembled and discard can rip that combo apart.
Reverent Silence is a good idea. I was only running Hull Breach as enchantment hate, and that gets hit by Counterbalance. I'll have to test out the Thoughtseize + Duress package more... I'm not sure that it's the best way of dealing with Counterbalance, but there doesn't seem to be much else. I'm thinking -1 Dreams, -1 Seismic Assault to make room for a 3/3 split.

thefreakaccident
11-14-2007, 01:29 PM
Sorry for the Necro.....

Does anyone have a recent build of "aggro"-loam that they can post...

For reference, I saw a pretty sexy list a while back at my local that looked kinda like this:

4 burning wish
3 Life from the Loam
3 devastating dreams
4 firestorm
4 seismic assault
3 zombie infestation
4 eternal witness
3 squee, goblin naboob
4 solitary confinement

4 mox diamond

4 taiga
4 bayou
2 windswept heath
4 savannah
4 tranquil thiquet
3 forgotten cave
4 wooded foothills


Sideboard//
3 pernicious deed
1 LftL
1 Devastating Dreams
1 haunting echoes (wishable wincon)
1 reclaim (or whatever the sorcery varient s called)
1 wrath of god/armaggedon
3 duress
3 cabal therapy (squee, witness, zombie tokens)
1 shattering spree

The sideboard s probably incorect, but whatev.

Basically, It is a deck that is based off of CA formed by discarding cards that come back via squee and the LFTL engine...

The combo Mu is almost non-existent, but it makes control and aggro piss themselves if they are forced to play you... your threats are your disruption, and your disruption cards are your threats... Eternal witness is there specifically for getting back required cards, and in some cases feels useless... The mana curve is decent, while also running like 7 wrath effects and 7 geddon effects.

I do not see any point to having creatures in this build, for they will almost certainly get fried in the process... Grave-shell scarab can be considered though... This is just a rough list out of memory, but if anyone could post a 'finalized' version of this deck that would be appreciated!

Mental
11-24-2007, 06:36 PM
Quick bit of jank - In LFTL builds that run burning wish, splashing blue for 1 Walk the Aeons in the wish board could be quite interesting. The splash would only require four duals, which wouldn't be much of a problem, and it could be quite useful against certain decks, especially with the quick mana accell exploration provides.

zulander
12-03-2007, 04:13 PM
Here's the list I ran on saturday to a top 8 spot.

Lands: 22
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures: 18
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Eternal Witness
4 Terravore
1 Genesis

Disruption: 10
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Armageddon

Other: 4
4 Life from the loam

Sideboard: 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
4 Orims Chant
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Armageddon

I went 2-1-1 at a 19 player tournament. First round beat UW Fish, then beat Dragon Stompy, lost to survival (freakin magus of the moon) and then lost to b/r goblins in the top 8. My losses were annoying because I had the game won if I had attacked a turn sooner against survival and against goblins I made mistakes that lost me the game. It was however the first time I had played this version (literally, I did absolutely zero testing at all) and I have to say it was pretty fun. The changes I've made for the deck are this

Main =
- 2 Armageddon
+ 1 Witness
+ 1 Mongrel

Board =
- 4 Orims Chant, - 3 Explosives
+ 3 Cabal Therapy, + 2 Slaughter Pact + 2 Armageddon

zulander
12-10-2007, 12:34 PM
So I played this again on Saturday with another strong performance and made top 8 again this time going 2-0-1. Lost in top 8 to mono black stax because this guy freakin top decked like a mofo drawing crypts when my terravore's were 7/7's lol. Here's the list:

Mana: 24
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Tranquil Thickett
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures: 20
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
3 Witness
1 Genesis

Disruption: 12
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
4 Deed

Other: 4
4 Life from the Loam

Sideboard: 15
3 Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Therapy
3 Slaughter Pact (for those magus of the moooonz)
3 Armageddon

Zach Tartell
12-10-2007, 12:38 PM
I count a twelve card board, hoss. Also, do you have anything to beat straight up blood moon? The Slaughter Pact is hot tech, I'll admit - but it seems like Moon effects are becomming more and more all over the place recently.

Phantom
12-10-2007, 12:52 PM
Looks like a GRb list did pretty well at the Worlds. Kind of different than what I had expected, but it looks solid:

Lands
1 Badlands
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
3 Wild Mongrel

Spells
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
1 Deathmark
1 Devastating Dreams
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's Crypt


I like the creature base, although I think I prefer Mongoose over Mongrel (although I may be wrong since Mongrel is much better with a Loam working). I think I like the lack of Devastating Dreams main, but I might want to squeeze one in since I often like to cast two. Also, I'd like to see Eternal Witness up to a 3-of. The board looks pretty nice, but I'd want some wishable combo answers like Duress and Rolling Earthquake. Deathmark is awesome. Two Deeds seem random. Anyway, I'm looking forward to testing and tweaking it.

zulander
12-10-2007, 03:11 PM
I count a twelve card board, hoss. Also, do you have anything to beat straight up blood moon? The Slaughter Pact is hot tech, I'll admit - but it seems like Moon effects are becomming more and more all over the place recently.

Thanks for the board. As far as blood moon goes I hear krosan grip is pretty good at removing artifacts and enchantments, that's just what I hear though :P.

That burning loam deck looks pretty good, as it helps with the consistency of the deck so you're not running dead cards in certain matchups. It seems to me though the white splash has worked better for me because of this. Burning loam helps out with random bad matchups whereas swords kills goyfs, you'll face opposing goyfs and other beaters far more than randomly bad matchups. I hope I made sense.

Also, mongrel by far is the MVP of the deck. He is so versatile that IMHO he should be a 4 of, especially after you get loam going.

Phantom
12-10-2007, 03:40 PM
Thanks for the board. As far as blood moon goes I hear krosan grip is pretty good at removing artifacts and enchantments, that's just what I hear though :P.

That burning loam deck looks pretty good, as it helps with the consistency of the deck so you're not running dead cards in certain matchups. It seems to me though the white splash has worked better for me because of this. Burning loam helps out with random bad matchups whereas swords kills goyfs, you'll face opposing goyfs and other beaters far more than randomly bad matchups. I hope I made sense.

Also, mongrel by far is the MVP of the deck. He is so versatile that IMHO he should be a 4 of, especially after you get loam going.

Grip is, at best, a decent solution (it's in the board, it needs green mana, etc.). I agree that it's the best solution for your build but it can't compete with the brilliant ease that is Wish -> Reverant Silence.

Also, I think the list has enough Goyf answers Wish (Deathmark, Dreams, not sure if Perish should be there or not), Goyfs, Terravores, Mongrels, Deeds, Explosives from the board, etc. Sure, your build probably has an easier time with the Thresh matchup, but I think the GRb has a better gameplan for a varied meta (better combo matchup, much more resistant to yard hate, better options vs. aggro thanks to Dev Dreams).

I'll have to do the testing to make sure, but this build has my wheels turning.

zulander
12-10-2007, 06:26 PM
Grip is, at best, a decent solution (it's in the board, it needs green mana, etc.). I agree that it's the best solution for your build but it can't compete with the brilliant ease that is Wish -> Reverant Silence.

Also, I think the list has enough Goyf answers Wish (Deathmark, Dreams, not sure if Perish should be there or not), Goyfs, Terravores, Mongrels, Deeds, Explosives from the board, etc. Sure, your build probably has an easier time with the Thresh matchup, but I think the GRb has a better gameplan for a varied meta (better combo matchup, much more resistant to yard hate, better options vs. aggro thanks to Dev Dreams).

I'll have to do the testing to make sure, but this build has my wheels turning.

It is true that blood moon effect's really don't hamper your build at all. It's just that I've never been a fan of devastating dreams, but I'll have to look into it as well.

Edit: Looking at your build I actually think running a 1 of swamp with blood moon in the board would help tremendously against random decks like thresh/chalice aggro/etc...

Phantom
12-10-2007, 06:37 PM
Edit: Looking at your build I actually think running a 1 of swamp with blood moon in the board would help tremendously against random decks like thresh/chalice aggro/etc...

I'd thought about this, but decided it was a little too cute. If Blood moon were wishable, that would be ok, but the fact that it would eat 4 board slots in a packed TIGHT board hurts. Also, we hit non basics pretty hard with the whole recurring wasteland thing.

zulander
12-11-2007, 09:58 AM
Is mox diamond really needed in this deck? I've been playing without it because I run 4 deed but I haven't missed it at all. Cutting the 4 diamonds from your build would allow you to go +1 deed, + 1 Witness + 1 Mongrel and +1 Devastating Dreams in the main.

b4r0n
12-11-2007, 03:40 PM
Is mox diamond really needed in this deck? I've been playing without it because I run 4 deed but I haven't missed it at all. Cutting the 4 diamonds from your build would allow you to go +1 deed, + 1 Witness + 1 Mongrel and +1 Devastating Dreams in the main.

Mox Diamond is really good. Besides providing explosive openings and accelerating out threats, it lets you play around Moon effects and makes your Goyfs bigger once you have Loam going. And turn 1 fetch, Mox, Loam is awesome.

Is Deed actually any better than EE in this deck? The manabase allows you to regularly play it with up to 3 counters, and occasionally even 4 or 5 counters (Mox). Since you're going to be dropping 2-3cc creatures pretty early, the precision of EE seems better than the power of Deed.

Phantom
12-11-2007, 04:00 PM
Mox Diamond is really good. Besides providing explosive openings and accelerating out threats, it lets you play around Moon effects and makes your Goyfs bigger once you have Loam going. And turn 1 fetch, Mox, Loam is awesome.

Is Deed actually any better than EE in this deck? The manabase allows you to regularly play it with up to 3 counters, and occasionally even 4 or 5 counters (Mox). Since you're going to be dropping 2-3cc creatures pretty early, the precision of EE seems better than the power of Deed.

I'm not sure you're wrong, but the main argument for deed would be that it's much better against Goblins. It has some other minor advantages like being able to drop it out before you know what you're up against, being able to kill Humility, Enforecer, etc.

And yes, mox Diamond is nuts. It might be tough to tell just by looking, but it is. It let's you cast things while recurring wasteland. It helps you hit RR for Dreams, or RRR for Seismic assault, and is great for recovering after a geddon effect.

MattH
12-12-2007, 12:42 AM
The first time you stare down a Doran AND a Goyf, you'll know why EE can never truly replace Deed in this deck. It's a fine supplement though.

kabal
12-21-2007, 10:40 PM
What is the current wish board look like for Aggro Loam? Below is what I have been playing

// Sideboard
1 Deathmark
1 Devastating Dreams
4 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Reverent Silence
1 Seeds of Innocence
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Unearth

Depending on whether or not I expect Goblins (typically 1 - 2 every week) I will swap out Plagues and insert a number of EE.

kabal
12-27-2007, 11:21 AM
Looks like a GRb list did pretty well at the Worlds. Kind of different than what I had expected, but it looks solid:

...

I'm looking forward to testing and tweaking it.

How did you testing go of this build?

Am getting ready myself to test a version of this build out. I've already replaced Deed with Seismic Assault. Seems to be a better fit. Your enhancement and artifact removal will come from Burning Wish. As for creatures, yours are some of the most powerful in the format. If meta yield a heavy aggro with no combo then you could replace Thoughseize with Smother/Terminate.

EDIT:

Here is the decklist I am testing with:

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Barren Moor
3 Bayou
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
3 Wild Mongrel

// Enchantments
2 Seismic Assault

// Spells
2 Terminate
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize

// Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
1 Deathmark
1 Devastating Dreams
3 Engineered Plague
1 Hull Breach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Unearth

enemyofarsenic
12-28-2007, 03:50 PM
i believe black splash / black variant aggro loam seems to be the way to go for this archetype.. thoughtseize / duress / cabal therapy gives this deck a chance to beat combo... and this variant seems to be doing good (ie Worlds...) do we have other takes for the black variant or is it basically splashing black for the discard spells? =]

kabal
12-28-2007, 08:31 PM
do we have other takes for the black variant or is it basically splashing black for the discard spells? =]

Also for Dark Confidant, Volrath's Stronghold, Plague, Deathmark, Unearth, and Smother/Terminate.

fetchesbasiclands
12-30-2007, 03:46 PM
I think red is very good in this deck since it gives you burning Wish and also Devastating Dreams,which many seem to cut from the deck nowadays.I've never been a big fan of Seismic Assault though.My build is a little less vulnerable to chalice@2,but I don't know if Dark Confidant is needed.Anyway,my build looks like this:
lands
3 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
2 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland
Artifacts
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
Creatures
3 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terravore
4 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
2 Shriekmaw
Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
2 Devastating Dreams
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Life from the Loam
Sideboard
1 Deathmark
1 Shattering Spree
3 Krosan grip
1 Reverent Silence
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life from the Loam
4 Duress
3 Tormod's Crypt

I'm not sure about Duress and Therapy,but I do like Therapy in conjunction with Witness.Cards in consideration are Dark Confidant,Nimble Mongoose and Sensei's Divining Top.Confidants would probably replace some of the costier cards,Mongeese would come for Mongrels,but I doubt it.Top,I can't say.

zulander
12-31-2007, 11:27 AM
Also for Dark Confidant, Volrath's Stronghold, Plague, Deathmark, Unearth, and Smother/Terminate.

And deed lol. To be honest though, I've seen both versions in tournament play and I have to say the black splash is much much more appealing to me. I may even play black splash next tournament i go to.

Ashe
01-02-2008, 12:52 PM
at the moment i'm testing this build, with white

25 LAND
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Secluded Steppe
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

15 SPELLS
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize

18 CREATURES
3 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Wild Mongrel
2 Gaddock Teeg

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
-> SB is still pretty much open cause it's a metacall

the odd thing probably is the teeg, first I had armageddon there but I wasn't satisfied with the card so I replaced it with teeg cause combo has his place over here

any tips welcome, I'm sticking with white though since I don't have any of the red cards

enemyofarsenic
01-02-2008, 04:43 PM
nice build ashe, though i would really like to see wild mongrel as a 4 of's since it's good with most of the cards of your deck... for combo i suggest cabal therapy in the board...

Ashe
01-02-2008, 06:16 PM
thanks

yes I was thinking of maybe cutting a nimble mongoose?^^ it's so difficult

and indeed, cabal in SB off course!

enemyofarsenic
01-03-2008, 09:02 PM
just wondering on how countryside crusher will contribute to this archetype...

1RR

Countryside Crusher

Creature - Giant Warrior
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library.
If itís a land card, put it into your graveyard and repeat this process.
Whenever a land card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, put a +1/+1 counter on Countryside Crusher.
3/3

imagine this with terravore (could be totally sick...)

FredMaster
01-04-2008, 08:57 AM
Is that card a rumor, a dream or an officially confirmed upcoming card?

enemyofarsenic
01-04-2008, 10:49 AM
i think it's pretty much legit.. source: mtgsalvation.com

JDunkin00
01-08-2008, 08:39 PM
Crusher will undoubtly be a solid addition and invulnerable to tormod's crypt compared to terravore. I am just trying to weigh the chances of hydroblast.