[Deck] Faerie Stompy [Archive] - Page 4

Spardantevil

09-23-2008, 02:30 PM

Let's do it \o/. So, 224 players, the tournament is kinda big :p. I went there with FS (obviously, pet deck FTW), mainly because I was expecting lots of Thresh and Loam decks, which are frenchies favourite decks, and good MUs too (Post side, FS VS Loam is not magic anymore... it's raping.). Anyway, here's my report.

Round 1: Mirror Match (lol :D)

We are 3 FS in the room, and I have to face one in the first round T_T...

G1: Mull to 6, loose the toss. My oponent goes with turbo island and CotV @1, I open with CoF+ SoFI... He scoops. He plays the old style version with Jitte, Pro-R and Control Magic... Maindeck :o

Is side in my own Jittes to break his.

G2: Mull to 5, I have CoF, Jitte and SoFI, so i trap him with CoF + Jitte T2... He bites, Needle on Jitte, next turn I drop SoFI and swing FTW.

1/0/0

Round 2: Table 1 \o/ La Loutre (the guy who top8ed in Belgium Legacy Championship), with enchantress.

G1: Mull to 6, I lose the toss. He opens with T1 forest, Wild Growth. Surprise :o. I counter an enchantress, Chalice for 1 and 2 (afterwards, I think it was a bad play) and win.

I side in EE, forgetting needle for this f*cking mesa.

G2: Mull again I think, I open with EE@ 1 who blasted 2 Elephant Grass which made me lose time. The guy goes on and ends up with 3 Grass online (replenish I think), so I have to pay 6 to attack with my poor unequipped serendib... I can't play my CotV @ 3 because of Aura of Silence and only 7 mana aivable. Finally, he's at 1, he cracks aura EOT for my Chalice @1 then try to go off. He ends up with Mesa and lots of flying horses which give him enough time to win the game. A SoLS would have given me the victory, so I topdecked SoFI :p.

G3: we don't even have enough time to shuffle our decks, end of round, 5 turns...

1/0/1, kind of disgusted to lose G2...

Ronde 3: Eva Green.

G1: Mull to 6, losing the toss again... He is in green death(:D), so his Tarmogoyfs aren't really frightening in his hand. I swing ftw.

Don't remember what I sided.

G2: Mull to 5 (yeah, unstable deck) for an awesome hand, like 2 swords, 1 trinket, enough mana... He goes T1 dark rit, thoughteize, tourach, T2 tourach, T3 Tarmo+wasteland, T4 Sinkhole. He really raped me with no class at all.

G3: NO MULLIGAN \o/!! I manage to get one of each swords online, I drop a sea drake which gets snuffed in resp to the equipment... He has tarmy, stalker and hippy on his side, I only have 3 turns to react... Topdeck trinket mage who swings into tarmy ( he's at 8 so if I manage to touch him he dies), then topdeck cloud who chumps stalker, I win.

2/0/1

Ronde 4: A guy from Swiss, playing Loam.

G1: I lose the toss, he wishes T1 for Loam. I swing with a double equipped
Serendib. He wishes for chainer's edict (as long as it's not shattering spree... :p), then I Sower his tarmo, he concedes.

I side in B2B and BEBs.

G2: He wishes on his T2, I BEB, on my turn 2 I B2B. Later I BEB another wish, Sower his Tarmogoyf, GG.

3/0/1

Ronde 5: A french guy with.... EGGS.dec

G1: I mull to 6 for a hand with a FoW, I lose the toss. He opens with T1 cycle Street Wraith (hmmm he must be playing belcher or ichorid I guess...) then drops a powerful Sungrass Egg. I laughed for like 2 minutes, the we came back to the play. He was reaaaaaally slow, and I didn't know his deck so I missplayed and countered his Helm of Awakening, leaving room for Second Sunrise...He won.

I side in 2 tormod's crypt et 1 EE.

G2: T1 tormod's crypt + EE@1, he tries to go off but Tormod's really destroys him (in resp to Second Sunrise, crack my crypt. Sunrise resolves? Ok, I get tormod's back...). He concedes.

G3: Same one.

4/0/1

Ronde 6: An Italian guy who top8ed in Eurovino 3 with Wstaxx:

G1: Toss: He makes 2. I make 1. I keep a middle hand with sea drake T1, then topdeck 2 others. I counter an armagueddon, another one passes, then he gets Oblivion Ring, but it's not enough to stop my raging Japanese Drakes.

Sb nothing.

G2: He plays turbo-nothing. My cat could've won this one, I'm really sorry for him.

5/0/1

Just one Win left to top 8!!

Ronde 7: a guy from Netherlands, playing Taiga:

G1: I've been scouting on last round so I know what he's playing. I lose the toss, mull to 6. T1 Chalice@1, T2 trinket for chalice, T3 Chalice @2, GG.

I side in Jitte, BEBs... and Misdis I think

G2: Mull to 6, the hand is middle by itself but if I can draw a blue source (island or chrome mox), it's almost impossible to loose. Didn't see one :/

G3: Mull to 5, Chalice@1 that he breaks (don't remember how, I'm not this sure it really happened in fact :p) T2 jitte, T3 cloud of faeries that get bolted eventually. Then topdeck 2 chrome mox, 3 Mulldrifter (the 4th one is under the chrome mox I played T1). 2 got REBlasted, the 3rd has to give me a solution...Chrome Mox+island, GG.

5/1/1 COME OOOOOOON

Ronde 8: kLu (yeah, the legendary Vintage player) Ustax

G1: No Mulligan, I win the toss (FINALLY). I go off pretty quickly, but as he is at 8, he topdecks a sower of temptation whichs steals my drake. I need a second blue source to cast mine, or a SoFI to get through his defenses... Nothing comes down, he gets the advantage and wins. Smockestack+wasteland...:cry:

I side in the 2nd needle, as he plays maze of ith.

G2: He Mulls to 5, I attack with sea drake and trinket(for needle) FTW.

G3: He manages to get a Sower and a Powder Keg, I have no counters... I loose.

5/2/1... My last opponent finished 9th, I have a largely better % of win, so I would have been in the top 8 if I won the last one.

I'm ending at 27th place, a really poor ending compared to what it could have been if I got a little more lucky on the last rounds topdecks, and if I didn't missplay in round 2 against Enchantress. I'm not the best FS player around here, and I'm not a really good player but I've been training hard on this deck for more than one year.

my list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
4 [P2] Sea Drake
4 [R] Serendib Efreet
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Thanks for Yamaëlle's list and Eldariel's Sideboard anyway :smile:

PS: Sorry for my english, I don't have enough time to perfect my report. Feel free to comment anything.

Eldariel

09-23-2008, 09:27 PM

Too bad you crashed in the end :( That was so close. Win vs. Enchantress would've meant that you could've drawn in, and win vs. Goyf Sligh (I mean, c'mon!) would've had you in Top 8 as well as a win vs. U Stax. And Goyf Sligh is ridiculously easy (that was really some rotten luck) and U Stax is favourable for us as well...

Anyways, a good show there. Loam, Enchantress, Eva Green, 'Geddon Stax, mirror, a solid line of decks to beat (or apparently draw with). And I'm glad the sideboard worked out for you.

sasa: If you check his matches out, there was really nothing the Propaganda would've helped with (even Enchantress - Mesa-combo means there's Serra's Sanctum in play, not to mention you wouldn't of course bring it in there). My experience is that it isn't very good against Goblins (since they can take control of the game under it - I feel the mana is better invested in equipment or such) and I haven't found need for it vs. Ichorid or TES (not that I'd face 'em often anyways) with Trinket Mage + appropriate Trinket available. I feel the present SB-slots are very nicely all-compassing with all of the cards covering a variety of decks. I think every card on it is more valuable in more matches than Propaganda.

Captain Hammer

09-24-2008, 02:02 AM

What do you guys think of Glen Elendra Archmage. I'm playing it in place of the 2 Pestermite that people are running.

I like it a lot more than Pestermite to be honest.

For just one more mana, you can still fly in for the same amount of damage, but now...

You can counter all sorts of nonsense like StP, FoWs, Wrath pretty much every single card that worries this deck, Glen can counter, TWICE. And it doesn't have to tap to use that ability.

It's been a lot more useful than Pestermite's ability for me atleast.

If you have board advantage, you pretty much lock up the win by resolving it. If you don't, you can use it to make sure your threats actually resolve and give you a fighting chance.

Spardantevil

09-24-2008, 05:11 AM

But I am still somehow afraid to not play Propaganda. This card hoses Ichorid extremely and also Gobos and TES to some decree.. Are you satisfied with SB as it is, or do you lack some solution against hordes?

2 Months ago, I just couldn't imagine a SB without 3 of them. I tested Eldariel's list and adopted it (except maybe the 2 Misdirections, but that's another story). FS doesn't need propagandas, Ichorid being an underplayed (bad) deck and TES already being a good MU (where you could just bring EE, less slots for the same effect...). Gobs isn't a MU this easy, but the fact is, in this metagame (full of rock/deed/loam.decks), I expect few/no goblins to go through the first rounds, they're in the end tables for the majority of them. And if you encouter one, just do what Eldariel said: take care of lackey and/or vial, and the rest is nothing but a joke. I usually side like that against gobs:
-3 SoLS
-4 Powerfish (too slow)
+3 Jitte
+3 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Needle
and sometimes the EE. Just keep Sower in to take care of the Warren Weirdings and everything should be ok.

Maybe I would bring propagandas back if slivers or spree decks were suddenly over represented... so it's not really for tomorrow.

What do you guys think of Glen Elendra Archmage ?

I thought she would be awesome, but she isn't. I was like "A creature and 2 hard counters in the same card?? ZOMFG play them over sower right now!!!". The fact is, it's the worst creature ever. You can't equip her, as she will obvisously counter something before you can attack. You will never attack for 2 with it (I never could). When she gets down, it's almost always already too late. If it isn't (like T2 with CoF), she'll just get plowed because you don't have U opened. You can't drop a creature as long as you don't have UU opened if you want to counter something. She may be awesome, but I dont think she belongs in FS. Though I haven't been able to recurr it with SoLS (even if it doesn't look this awesome to me...).

Plus the illustration is awfull (yeah, this counts too :p)

Anyway, I would be happy if anyone proved me wrong about her :).

Now, talking about the new edition... I like it. Really.

Kathari Screecher :2::u:
Creature - Bird Soldier
Flying
Unearth :2::u:
2/2

Recurring threat seems good to me in a deck that gets quickly out of gas...

Sigil of Distinction :X:
Artifact - Equipment
Sigil of Distinction comes into play with X charge counters on it.
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 for each charge counter on Sigil of Distinction.
Equip - Remove a charge counter from Sigil of Distinction.

Late game bomb, makes Trinket an awesome lategame topdeck... But not very versatile. More than 1 seems like a bad idea to me... maybe as my 8th piece of equipment.

Quietus Spike :3:
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has deathtouch.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, that player loses half his or her life, rounded up.
Equip :3:

Makes Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers fear chumping Cloud of Faeries. Makes Cloud of Faeries hit for 10... But not very versatile. I don't think it'll be better than SoLS, but if it is, I'll have to go back to test another aggro shell of the deck. Don't know if this would be an interesting turning.

Relic of Progenitus :1:
Artifact
T: Target player removes a card in his or her graveyard from the game.
:1: , Remove Relic of Progenitus from the game: Remove all graveyards from the game. Draw a card.

Maaaaaaan I like this one. Maybe in the MD needle slot. Now, let the deeds resolve and race these 0/1s for :1::g: .

Thoughts?

coma

09-24-2008, 08:20 AM

@spardantevil : very congrats for your result !

Good report !

Bye bye:smile:

Eldariel

09-24-2008, 09:27 AM

I still run 18 lands (or 17+Shoreline) and will continue to do so. Again, if you check his report, you'll notice that he mulled a lot. I think an extra Island (or Shoreline Ranger - it's usually good enough and smooths the draws both ways) would've cut down a number of them.

As for Ichorid, I touched upon it already, but I don't think there's enough Ichorid around to warrant Propagandas. Not only that, but I've found Ichorid to be at the very least a decent match-up even without it. Between 6 Crypts (more than almost any Legacy-deck can run), Mulldrifters (the Evoke wins a lot), Forces (still the key to making them pay for bad hands) and fast kill, we're very well equipped to beat the deck. As a bonus, they'll often Therapy first turn, but they usually call Crypt - we might have a Crypt, a Mage or both so there's a very decent chance it's wasted.

Same applies to TES; we already play 5 EEs, I don't see the need for any more. As for Goblins, I just don't see the effect being worth a card and a turn. I'd rather play-equip something and win. Overall, I never liked Propaganda - it seems too narrow an answer and not good vs. all the decks it wants to be good against. Maybe I'll test it again, but I'll say this: It was in the original sideboard for Faerie Stompy, specifically against stuff like Goblins and I was always disappointed in it.

Glen Elendra Archmage, I never got around testing it. I'm kind of liking the prospect of playing it against a Deed-deck and am thinking of it in the Misdirection-slot (its value has diminished dramatically with Sui Black-variants being played far less, Vindicates not being around much and WW-style aggro with spot removal, and combo with counters (á la High Tide) almost having vanished from the map). Misdirection does help against combo like Fetchland Tendrils, TES and Solidarity though, especially since they're starting to play Orim's Chants. Being able to Misdirect Orim's Chant is guaranteed to at least buy you another turn. Against Solidarity, it has many other implications. But with the black decks in the deckline, the card may be cut and Archmage may warrant testing. Also, Cursed Scroll is something to consider in the slot.

I'm still not hot on Relic - I really like Chalice at 1 in the same MUs where I'd use Relic. That said, I'll probably SB at least one - I don't know about MDing it; if it had Cycling, that'd be a different story, but bleh.

Regarding Goblins, I personally keep Chalices on the play and take all but one (or two if they play Rgb with Tin Street and Weirdings) out on the draw for BEBs. Also, I really like Pestermite there - being able to play it turn 1 allows tapping Lackey even if they do play Warren Weirdings or similar. I also always bring in the EE - it's a great turn 1 bullshit answer and can be used to clear the board for Chalice, under a Chalice and so on. It's really awesome vs. Gobs.

As far as the new cards go, Sigil is definitely a one-of and I'll have to see about a second one. It's definitely a solid card, being equippable immediately when played. One will have to be even more careful with removal when using it, but it kicks ass. It's always Trinketable and easily makes Trinket a body capable of tangling with Goyfs.

Unearth seems like a weak mechanic since the dude doesn't come back for good. Coming back just once and being a 2/2 for 3, I'd still hand it over to Pestermite. I feel that card is just better of the two.

Spike seems kinda weak. Sure, it's good on Cloud, but on other creatures? Bleh. Also, it costs 6 to play and equip, meaning it'll very rarely happen in one turn. I think we'll stick with Swords, Sigil and Jitte for now.

Spardantevil

09-24-2008, 03:00 PM

Captain Hammer

09-24-2008, 06:40 PM

Sorry I don't remember very well :/ (5 days ago, I have a goldfish memory), but the classics: not enough lands, too much lands or hand not appropried to the role I must play in the MU. I always mulligan hardcore with this deck, I mean, it's the way it's meant to be played: unstable at the extreme, but if you mull correctly the deck is very good. Do you guys mulligan REALLY much less than I do?

About the mana base: I got the Synod out because he made me lose some games, so I tried Shoreline Ranger... I dislike this guy at the highest point. Every game I saw him in my opening hand where an island would have been 1000 times better (like: Trinket, Trinket, Sea Drake, SoFI, City of Traitors and him) made me want to throw the card away. So I did. And I never got the Synod back, replacing it with the 4th Mulldrifter (Which I don't really like too). Maybe a 10th island will go here, I'm not sure yet, as I won't re-test the list until Shards is out, because there will be other changes to do, and I have other stuff to take care at the moment. Anyway I'll be back with other results when my testings will be more advanced.

Thank you guys :wink:

No, it's not just you. I'm pretty sure everyone has really crappy draws (in terms of mana) with this deck. It's just the nature of it. I mull a ton too. I totally agree with you on Shoreline by the way. When I tried, I hated it everytime I saw it before turn 3. It made me throw back lots of lands too.

That's the reason I'm trying out..
10 Island
1 Seat of Synod
4 Chrome Mox
4 City
4 Tomb

Yeah, the land count is high, but who cares if it saves me from mulling away otherwise solid hands so often.

Eldariel

10-04-2008, 01:22 AM

Just giving you guys a heads-up, we'll probably end up a DtW for the next month (FS has 4 Top 8s in September). Here are the September lists:

Faerie Stompy (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20063) by Cristiano Serafini - 6th place in Legacy Finale Emilia 28.9.2008

Creatures
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Mulldrifter
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Trinket Mage
2 Weatherseed Faeries

Instants
4 Force of Will
2 Rushing River

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Island
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Misdirection
3 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

Faerie Stompy (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19974) by Ugo Tomat - 5th place in DragonsLeague Trieste 21.9.2008

Creatures
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Sea Drake
3 Serendib Efreet
3 Sower of Temptation
4 Trinket Mage

Instants
4 Force of Will

Enchantments
3 Rhystic Study

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tundra

Sideboard
2 Echoing Truth
3 Propaganda
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Winter Orb

Faerie Stompy (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19727) by Maxim Volkov - 3rd place in Moscow Legacy Open 7.9.2008

Creatures
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Mulldrifter
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
3 Sower of Temptation
4 Trinket Mage

Instants
4 Force of Will

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Island

Sideboard
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Misdirection
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Winter Orb

Faerie Stompy (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19647) by Martinot Vincent - 3rd place in Magic Corporation Legacy 7.9.2008

Creatures
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Mulldrifter
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Trinket Mage

Instants
4 Force of Will

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Chrome Mox
2 Lotus Petal
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Island
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard
4 Silent Arbiter
3 Weatherseed Faeries
3 Control Magic
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Winter Orb

I think standouts in this data are:
-Rhystic Study
-Lotus Petal
-Rushing River
-Glen Elendra Archmage

Captain Hammer

10-04-2008, 01:38 AM

Sweet.

Should we just assume it's a coincidence that all four lists opted to run 0 Pestermite and 4 Cloud of Fairies and 3 of the 4 lists opted to run 10-11 Island equivalents?

Both
-Rushing River
-Glen Elendra Archmage

probably deserve more play than they currently get in this deck imo.

socialite

10-04-2008, 03:59 PM

Eldariel

10-04-2008, 08:19 PM

I am rather confused as to the lack of Chrome Mox in some of the lists.

@Eldariel: Do you think the split of Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal/Mox Diamond, in some of the lists is is due to problems associated with acquiring the cards? I find it hard to believe people could get their hands on a set of Drakes but not a set of Mox.

Personally I don't think running Mox Diamond or Lotus Petal is an acceptable replacement for Chrome Mox. One requiring you to have a land in the opening hand and the other while providing no card disadvantage via imprint I could see it causing mana problems down the line, not to mention watering down the broken starts.

Assuming an opening hand of:
1 Equipment, 3 Business Men, 1 Force of Will, 1 Two Mana Land, and Lotus Petal, a hand I would find acceptable. The replacement of Chrome Mox with Lotus Petal seems very not worth it.

What are your thoughts?

I've always thought the same, I'm not enamored by the idea of playing Petals/Diamonds over Moxes. That said, with so many well-finishing lists packing them, I am of the opinion that it does warrant further study - I could just claim they're suboptimal, but frankly, I can't know for that to be true from a purely theorethical standpoint.

Therefore, I'm going to try those out and see how having Petals/Diamonds over some number of Chromes works out. In short, I think the idea is horrible, but I also know I can be wrong and will therefore give it a shot.

socialite

10-04-2008, 09:07 PM

I've always thought the same, I'm not enamored by the idea of playing Petals/Diamonds over Moxes. That said, with so many well-finishing lists packing them, I am of the opinion that it does warrant further study - I could just claim they're suboptimal, but frankly, I can't know for that to be true from a purely theorethical standpoint.

Therefore, I'm going to try those out and see how having Petals/Diamonds over some number of Chromes works out. In short, I think the idea is horrible, but I also know I can be wrong and will therefore give it a shot.

Agreed, worth a shot I suppose. Today I've been trying out Rhystic Study, to be honest I don't think this card is the direction that this deck should be going the majority of the time, which is playing the aggro role. The card is far to passive to be included, propaganda status.

Has anyone else tried playing around with it?

Eldariel

10-04-2008, 10:04 PM

Media314r8

10-05-2008, 03:57 AM

@ Chrome Mox vs Mox Diamond:

FS was my second legacy deck, after vial goblins, and I've been playing it on and off and testing it constantly ever since i built it in 2005. I personally have gone back and forth with diamond/chrome, but after the errata on diamond, have tested it more, and have settled on a build with more lands (I don't have my list on me, but I believe I'm running 13/14 islands and one seat.) I really like that with the additional lands, not only is diamond more constantly usable, but hands are more often keep-able. Nothing bothered me more than having chrome and a land or two with only one threat and force to chose between imprinting. Diamond also allows us to play a singleton artifact-dark banishing (name escapes me from ALA) to fetch with trinket. EE @ 2 only hits CoF and Jitte in our deck, while destroying goyfs, bobs, and CBs across the table from us. (that a 1G ground-pounder can race the most undercosted flyer ever printed... fuck power-creep wizards!) This may, of course, open up a whole can of stale worms about how FS should play Underground Seas, Bayous, a vault, and a basic swamp. I am not advocating that, I am just adding that diamond and a higher land count allow for more consistent hands while preserving the number of threats in-hand. (more lands means 2-3 less threats, but keep in mind you're also not allways pitching a threat in your hand in order to use it)

my $.02

EDIT: CAPS LOCK: ARE YOU READY TO UNLEASH THE FURY!?!? -post edited, caps removed for italics, which are slightly less arrogant and rude imo.

Spardantevil

10-05-2008, 06:41 AM

Just giving you guys a heads-up, we'll probably end up a DtW for the next month (FS has 4 Top 8s in September).

I didn't post it since I thought it was worthless but I ended first in a 25 persons tournament in september too (does it count?). So there's one more.

socialite

10-05-2008, 09:05 AM

Rhystic Study seems horrible. It's like Sphere of Resistance, except they can choose to not-pay when it's advantageous to them. We already play next to no mana denial - it'll grow dead quick enough. Further, it's card draw that's reliant on opponent letting you draw cards. All in all, it seems like a luxury we can't afford.

Indeed, any work with Sigil of Distinction yet? Ive been working with two in my current build and so far its been quite the beast.

I suppose it has the danger of just being cool but all in all Ive yet to find it to be win more. Allowing it to be fetched by Trinket Mage is insane, not only that but it allows Trinket Mage to trade or straight up kill Goyfs, and turns your Sea Drakes into sharks with freak'in lasers on their heads.

Eldariel

10-05-2008, 11:16 AM

I've just been playing the two tournaments lately so I haven't really had the time to work on Alara-cards. I'm in the Salvation-tournament Top 8, where I'll first face off against Nihil's Aggro Loam and if I win, against Food Chain Goblins. Finals opponent is unknown yet. I'm also playing another tourney at Salvation (The Legends), likewise with an old list, but it's only 3 rounds of Legacy.

But yea, once I'm done with those tournaments, I'll probably work around with Sigil of Distinction a bit more. Sigil seems like an autoinclude though - having an aggressive, fetchable tool is huge. And Sigil is even playable when topdecked. I think 1-2 is going to be an autoinclude; it's not better than other equipment so you'll want to retain the ability to topdeck the better pieces, but since it's tutorable, it improves the Trinket Mages (offensively, which is the thing they presently don't really have) which makes it a theorethical must for the deck.

socialite

10-05-2008, 12:03 PM

Welp there goes the DtW. On a side note Ive also been playing around with Relic. To touch on what you said a while ago Eldariel, while it is a neat card it cannot and has not been as good as Crypt.

The casting cost really screws Chalice at one, which is a power play vs. so many decks in this Meta-game.

Removing both graveyards is great to shrink Goyfs etc, but to be honest Id much rather have a Chalice out at one vs. Ichorid (P.Imps and Therapy) and Threshold (Duh).

Arsenal

10-05-2008, 12:46 PM

I think I already know the answer, but is there a reasonable substitution for Sea Drake?

Spardantevil

10-05-2008, 12:50 PM

no.

But you can play juggy, Phyrexian Warbeast or stuff like that.

Eldariel

10-05-2008, 12:51 PM

I think I already know the answer, but is there a reasonable substitution for Sea Drake?

You can replace Sea Drake, but the deck will be worse without it. You could try:
-Pestermite
-Weatherseed Faeries
-Juggernaut
-Phyrexian Warbeast
-Cloud Spirit
etc.

Basically, efficient 3-drops work, but since Sea Drake is the most efficient, the deck will suffer. Still, the combination of equipment, beaters, Chalices, Forces and speed will allow you to win regardless of Drakes - their size is helpful, but since it's only a 4-of in a deck without tutors, it's not in any way the only reason the deck wins.

Arsenal

10-05-2008, 08:37 PM

I have almost every card needed to build Faerie Stompy, minus the cheap commons (Cloud of Faeries, Trinket Mage, etc). The only pricey cards that I don't have are the Sea Drakes. I'll just try to substitute something else for now. Thanks for the suggestions.

Captain Hammer

10-06-2008, 01:38 AM

I actually think that both Relic and Sigil are autoincludes as 1 ofs in the maindeck. I would definately retain Crypts in the board. But MD, I think Relic is superior. For one, Relic can actually be played in the maindeck unlike Crypt. Crypt is too narrow and thus dead too often. But Relic on top of being tutorable and hating on graveyards (essentially half the decks in the format), shrinks Goyfs into 0/1s that your Trinket Mage and Cloud of Faries could kill off, and at worst cycles.

@ Chrome Mox vs Mox Diamond:

FS was my second legacy deck, after vial goblins, and I've been playing it on and off and testing it constantly ever since i built it in 2005. I personally have gone back and forth with diamond/chrome, but after the errata on diamond, have tested it more, and have settled on a build with more lands (I don't have my list on me, but I believe I'm running 13/14 islands and one seat.) I really like that with the additional lands, not only is diamond more constantly usable, but hands are more often keep-able. Nothing bothered me more than having chrome and a land or two with only one threat and force to chose between imprinting. Diamond also allows us to play a singleton artifact-dark banishing (name escapes me from ALA) to fetch with trinket. EE @ 2 only hits CoF and Jitte in our deck, while destroying goyfs, bobs, and CBs across the table from us. (that a 1G ground-pounder can race the most undercosted flyer ever printed... fuck power-creep wizards!) This may, of course, open up a whole can of stale worms about how FS should play Underground Seas, Bayous, a vault, and a basic swamp. I am not advocating that, I am just adding that diamond and a higher land count allow for more consistent hands while preserving the number of threats in-hand. (more lands means 2-3 less threats, but keep in mind you're also not allways pitching a threat in your hand in order to use it)

my $.02

EDIT: CAPS LOCK: ARE YOU READY TO UNLEASH THE FURY!?!? -post edited, caps removed for italics, which are slightly less arrogant and rude imo.

Honestly. I think this has a ton of merit and definately warrants exploration. Fairie Stompy's achellie's heels have always been its extremely inconsistent manabase and low threat count. Chrome Mox contributes to that by forcing us to imprint threats (adding to those that we RftG for FoW).

I recently built Angel Stax and as I was building it, was fully expecting the deck to be every bit as inconsistent as Fairie Stompy. Boy was I surprised. I almost never get mana screwed by Angel Stax's mana base. It's manabase every bit as explosive as Fairie Stompy's but no where near as inconsistent.

I seriously think we should try out a similar manabase for Fairie Stompy. It also lets us get away with running higher cc and thus more threats. Both Rushing River and Glen Elendra Archmage come to mind. And cards like Sigil of Distinction, Mulldrifter, and equipment in generally are flexible in their cc (you can play a ton of mana one turn, or spread it out), that they work great with a larger manabase. That new equipment that takes out half your opponents life also seems worth a shot.

Dark_Cynic87

10-06-2008, 02:27 AM

That new equipment that takes out half your opponents life also seems worth a shot.

Careful. People will burn you at the stake for saying something like that. Just ask the Dragon Stompy players...meh.

I have hopes for the equipment, but isn't the Xcc one a better choice for a deck that plays Trinket Mage? Tutorable, and you guys are talking about a more stable manabase, which in my opinion clearly means a land-drop each turn, which in turn makes more mana available, letting you have a bigger X-cc Equipment...6 mana seems high for most decks, this one included...IDK.

Pce,

--DC

socialite

10-06-2008, 10:30 AM

I actually think that both Relic and Sigil are autoincludes as 1 ofs in the maindeck. I would definately retain Crypts in the board. But MD, I think Relic is superior. For one, Relic can actually be played in the maindeck unlike Crypt. Crypt is too narrow and thus dead too often. But Relic on top of being tutorable and hating on graveyards (essentially half the decks in the format), shrinks Goyfs into 0/1s that your Trinket Mage and Cloud of Faries could kill off, and at worst cycles.

Personally I run one Crypt main deck, as I run a tool box of trinket-able items, and it has never really been a problem for me. On some level its going to be useful during the majority of matches at any given Legacy Tournament, unless you have some sort of wacked out meta-game. It hits Loam, Thresh, Ill-Gotten Gains Storm Combo, Ichorid, Survival, Goblins, and any deck running Goyf (In my opinion hitting our graveyard isn't as important in controlling Goyf as we do not run fetch-lands etc).

I am unsure as to why you would run a Relic main deck and Crypts in your side-board. The majority of the time dropping a Chalice at one is going to be your first priority in any given game 1. That being said and done completely negates Relic as it costs one. I assume if you were playing versus a deck that requires you play graveyard hate you would thus side in Crypts game 2. Why not just bypass this problem and run Crypt.

I don't really see what is so great about Relic. There is a reason why we do not run one casting cost cards (besides Pithing Needle which has no real alternative, which Relic does have), Chalice at one is a wrecking ball, why water that down?

Feel free to respond I by no means mean to flame you I am just curious behind your reasoning, perhaps I am not seeing something that is obvious to others.

On that note just for future reference this is the list I am currently running.

Creatures (20):
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Mulldrifter
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Trinket Mage

Equipment (8):
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sigil of Distinction

Artifacts (11):
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void

Instants (4):
4 Force of Will

Land (17):
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Island

Pretty basic.

socialite

10-06-2008, 01:15 PM

No Sower of Temptation MD? And to lesser degree: 20 threats only? (And as always - how is it possible that many of you play with 17 lands only.. I tried it few times and always mulled to oblivion :mad: :tongue: )

I still run three Control Magic in my side. Its a personal preference (Enchantment over Creature, this was discussed a while ago in this thread), as I do not run Sword of Light and Shadow Sower of Temptation is even less of a must. I do not run control effects in the main deck, in the case of Sower of Temptation, a 2/2 body for 2UU is rather underwhelming in the face of racing combo. (I am aware the combo match-up is already rather favorable, again its personal preference).

I've never had a problem with seventeen lands.

As for the twenty threats while lower than I would prefer, I originally dropped two Pestermite to fit in the two Sigil of Distinction. So far the ability to make Cloud of Faeries and Trinket a solid body with Sigil has kept the punches coming. I could how ever see a problem with losing threats via Imprint on Chrome Mox and Force of Will.

Eldariel

10-06-2008, 09:02 PM

Just giving you guys an update about the Salvation Legacy tournament:
I'm in Top 4 right now and my next opponent is Eseph with Food Chain Goblins. In the finals, the winner will be facing Fetchland Tendrils, Swan Thresh, Rats (!!) or The Mighty Quinn. My tournament so far:

Round 1 Daze with Mono-Black Control
Round 2 Marit with Rats
Round 3 Cabal_chan with Merfolk Fish
Round 4 Eseph with Food Chain Goblins
Round 5 IBA with The Mighty Quinn
Round 6 emidln with Fetchland Tendrils (ID into 5-0-1 and first seed)
Top 8 Nihil with Aggro Loam

As you may notice, full 4 of my Swiss opponents made it to the Top 8. Weirdest Top 8 decks I've ever seen too (full 2 rogues in Food Chain Goblins, Rats, and many of the establisheds being a bit more rare, while Swan Thresh, Dreadstill and Aggro Loam are quite common, Quinn, Faerie Stompy and Fetchland Tendrils are perhaps less so). A report will be forthcoming once the tournament ends or I lose, whichever comes first.

socialite

10-06-2008, 09:33 PM

Eldariel

10-09-2008, 05:54 PM

Regarding Mox Diamond:

While I'm open to new ideas, don't forget that Chrome Mox counts as a manasource and a blue source as far as keeping hands goes. Mox Diamond counts as a blue source, but not a mana source, as you can't keep a hand with 1 land and Mox Diamond (while you can generally do that with Chrome). I've always strived to keep the manabase as compact as possible, so I try to play the minimum amount of mana sources in general as possible to make room for as many spells as I can.

The main effect of this compared to Mox Diamond is that I have more slots when building the deck, than I'd have with Diamond. Therefore, I can fit more cards in, and make the choice of what to pitch in each game as opposed to in deck construction. I've found that 22 mana sources is a fair number and carries the deck through fairly consistently (for example, in the Salvation-tournament, I don't think I dropped more than one-two games out of the ~20 I've now played to mana issues).

That said, if you can present me a list that's more consistent and runs Mox Diamond without sacrificing any important quotas, I'm all ears.

On another, more random note: I won my match vs. Eseph's FCG and am now in the finals of the Salvation-tournament. The opponent is yet to be determined - the other side had marit's Rats beat Avatar of Light's Swan Thresh, while emidln's Fetchland Tendrils and IBA's Mighty Quinn have paused at 1-1, so the opponent could be any one of those decks.

Media314r8

10-09-2008, 06:41 PM

I am very interested! Could you share the list, please?

Well, no. You see, I'm deployed to Iraq currently, and have only brought my toughbook with me, forgetting to transfer all my MWS files over before I left. Here's one off the top of my head (sigil was not in my previous build, and I cannot remember for the life of me the exact land count, which is pretty key to making mox work, but 20 lands should give you 2.5 lands per average hand [2.33 lands per 7 card hand on the play, 2.66 lands per 8 card hand on the draw] which should allow you to land a looter to find another if needed, or if you happen to have a two-mana land and a mox, you're set.) I've heard the argument against looter a million times, as we want to eventually set chalice at 2... well hell, people still run jitte. The reason I like looter is that, unlike jitte, he is a great first-turn play, and will smooth your draw for the rest of the game, and will always connect with equipment. (in addition, his discard a guy, SOLS him back next turn can work like a SOFI that's safe from discard) Jitte, however, is typically played AFTER you land a guy, and idealy, we go turn one drake/ efreet, turn two chalice @ 2, turn three make equip, win game. This doesn't work with jitte post chalice, but does with looter pre-chalice, who will also allow you to trade those CMC 2 cards down the line for new, usable cards. In the (over 9000!) hours of testing I've been through with this deck, he is certainly better than mulldrifter in this deck. even with recursion, FS does not want to be casting council of the sortomi each turn. As far as draw engines go, looter digs as deep or deeper, and comes down turn 1 often, plus gets in for beats, with the ability to carry equips. (I only ever hardcasted mulls a few games, and they were happless games against landstill too drawn out to win) I am playing 5 equips, as I count sigil as an equip.

Daimond FS (frist draft)

// Lands
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
10 [10E] Island (1)
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers

// Creatures
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [P2] Sea Drake
4 [TSP] Looter il-Kor
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
4 [R] Serendib Efreet

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

Eldariel

10-09-2008, 07:44 PM

See, why I like Mulldrifter is that it doesn't need to connect. It doesn't need to live for one second. Just playing Mulldrifter nets me two cards. Opponent kills it, but the cards go nowhere. It's the prime reason I've been beating Landstill, MWC, MBC and company lately. It's also stellar against Ichorid (in fact, I've won at least one game in every Ichorid-match I've played lately thanks to Mulldrifter removing some number of Bridges as Chalice and Force disrupt them from going for the combo-turn). Also, Mulldrifter nets actual cards - there're often times where I simply don't want to pitch anything in my hand and in those cases, Looter's ability is really annoying. Mulldrifter still draws me extra.

But in my opinion, the most important function of Mulldrifter is to act as a threat that draws cards. One of the things I most hate to do in this deck is to spend a turn not playing a threat. That's an easy window for opponent to do stuff I don't like, like resolve a Standstill, play a Humility without a chance for me to respond with Back to Basics, play whatever discard/LD spell without paying a price (that is, a chunk of their life next turn), drop a Tarmogoyf for board superiority or whatever. Mulldrifter is a credible beater that also draws me ahead. In fact, I think Mulldrifter is one of the prime reasons blue Stompy is superior to the alternative colours in most cases* (Trinket Mage, Sea Drake and Force being the others).

Looter was definitely handy, but if not playing a real draw engine that can be used from the hand, the match against all varieties of control becomes much more difficult. Also, Mulldrifter's casting cost is an actual boon against a card that's very powerful against us, and quite common in the format - Pernicious Deed. At the present, I find Pestermite to outweight Looter in utility, which is coincidentially the card I've opted to run - my present version of FS is pretty much trickier than any previous versions, which means opponent has a lot more to worry about and is much more likely to make a mistake or be unprepared for something.

Captain Hammer

10-09-2008, 09:42 PM

Regarding Mox Diamond:

While I'm open to new ideas, don't forget that Chrome Mox counts as a manasource and a blue source as far as keeping hands goes. Mox Diamond counts as a blue source, but not a mana source, as you can't keep a hand with 1 land and Mox Diamond (while you can generally do that with Chrome). I've always strived to keep the manabase as compact as possible, so I try to play the minimum amount of mana sources in general as possible to make room for as many spells as I can.

I think you can think about this from a different angle.

Why do you strive to make the manabase as slim as possible? Because it lets you play more business spells.

But at the same time, Chrome Mox actually uses up one of those business spells.

You end up being able to run more business spells with Chrome Mox but actually end up having to imprint them. So it's pretty much a wash.

The difference is, there actually is a lot of chaff in the deck that it could od without.

Compared to bombs like Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Force of Will etc, cards like Pestermite, Cloud of Fairies aren't on the same powerlevel. I had been forced imprint away Drakes, Efreets and FoW on many occasions because it was the only blue card I had in hand at the time. So you run less chaff with Mox Diamond and don't have to ever imprint away good cards either.

socialite

10-09-2008, 10:21 PM

@ Captain Hammer - In all honesty you really cannot compare Chrome Mox and Diamond like that. You logic makes sense on one level but you are only scratching the surface.

Chrome Mox is better for twoish reasons.
1. It allows you to play more business spells, as you stated you may be forced to imprint those same spells away in order to use Chrome Mox, but it still allows you to pick which spell you want to imprint away. (Preferably something that is situationally at that moment in time useless).
2. Upping the land count in the deck to make Mox Diamond more consistent has the tendency to flood your hand with bad draws. I would much rather play Chrome Mox which has 20-28 pitch-able targets that also happen to be spells, than Mox Diamond which has 21 (typical 17 lands + 4 more) lands that I could draw into via my draw step and or Mulldrifter.

Also, none of the cards you listed are chaff in this deck, except for maybe Cloud of Faeries (which I still run) and even then its far from chaff. I would rather have them then more lands so I could run a multi color producing Mox in my Mono Blue deck.

Eldariel

10-09-2008, 11:23 PM

I think you can think about this from a different angle.

Why do you strive to make the manabase as slim as possible? Because it lets you play more business spells.

But at the same time, Chrome Mox actually uses up one of those business spells.

You end up being able to run more business spells with Chrome Mox but actually end up having to imprint them. So it's pretty much a wash.

The difference is, there actually is a lot of chaff in the deck that it could od without.

Compared to bombs like Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Force of Will etc, cards like Pestermite, Cloud of Fairies aren't on the same powerlevel. I had been forced imprint away Drakes, Efreets and FoW on many occasions because it was the only blue card I had in hand at the time. So you run less chaff with Mox Diamond and don't have to ever imprint away good cards either.

The thing is, I have the choice of simply not playing Chrome Mox if my hand is so full of mana sources that I've got but a single blue card. And with more mana sources, I'll have more hands without any creatures whatsoever. I'll also topdeck less creatures. This is the big one for me: I was finally able to bump the deck up to 22 creatures (+Shoreline) thanks to the printing of Mulldrifter.

This allows me to fight removal-heavy decks on more even footing - they can kill my first 4-5 guys, but there's more where that came from! Also, since all of our guys are huge, especially with equipment, mass removal often nails just 1-2 dudes (Deed aside, which is why it's such a pain in the first place; equipment is used to make the 1-2 dudes a threat, but Deed wipes those out too).

If adding Mox Diamonds would mean cutting creatures, that would weaken my matchups against a host of decks like Landstill, MWC, MBC, GBW Rock, Survival-decks and company. Here's the benefits of Chrome Mox vs. Mox Diamond.

Chrome Mox:
-Deck contains more actual threats. Leads to:
*Should you happen to be in a position where it's advantageous not to use the Mox, you're more likely to have a threat than an additional mana source in hand.
*You're more likely to topdeck a threat than a mana source.
-Allows keeping one-land+Mox hands.

Mox Diamond:
-Makes mana-heavy hands faster.
-Better Trinket Mage-target usually.
-Can produce off-colour mana for e.g. Engineered Explosives

Overall, I find it a close one, but generally I'd prefer Chrome to Diamond. Now, I could see 3 Mox/1 Diamond setup to have a better tutorable mana source, but that's cutting the number of primary mana sources dangerously low - mayhap too low for me. Also, since I run Shoreline Ranger, I've got slightly less issues finding an imprintable on Chrome Mox.

Phantom

10-10-2008, 02:13 AM

but 20 lands should give you 2.5 lands per average hand [2.33 lands per 7 card hand on the play, 2.66 lands per 8 card hand on the draw] which should allow you to land a looter to find another if needed, or if you happen to have a two-mana land and a mox, you're set.

See, this is why I don't see how Mox Diamond is playable without a land count of 24. If you're average hand is 2.5 lands, then half your hands have 2 lands, and since 12/20 lands only produce one mana, more than half those hands are going to be unkeepable. Sure, you can keep them and play a Looter or Chalice, but you're opening yourself up to cards like Stp, Mogg Fanatic, Fow, Daze, or Engineered Explosives spelling a loss.

It's a shame because Diamond really does open up some interesting avenues, I just thinking mulliganing even more is disastrous.

Captain Hammer

10-10-2008, 08:00 AM

Wait, since when is Cloud of Faries not debatable?

I would say that 4 Mulldrifter are not debatable actually (but yeah, you could run Looter en-Kor in it's place), but Cloud of Fairies are very debatable.

They do next to nothing for the deck and are completely dependent on equipment to do anything at all.

Many lists don't even run them, and there's a reason for that.

Since you bring up en-Kor creatures, honestly, I would strongly consider Infiltrator il-Kor.

Infiltrator is a pretty badass threat. It comes online two turns later, but with haste, so it's basically one turn slower than a nonsuspend creature.

But it's unblockable, beats for 3 (same as Serendib Efreet), and can be played off of just two mana, basically a Chrome Mox and an Island would do the trick.

It even dodges Counterbalance, Chalice at 2 and a bunch of other good stuff, all while pitching to FoW or Mox in a pinch.

Plus having one of your biggest threats have shadow rather than flying can be pretty handy to do the last points of damage in a format with Mystic Enforcer, Tombstalker and Exalted Angel.

Eldariel

10-10-2008, 08:25 AM

Regarding Infiltrator il-Kor: I've tried that. Unfortunately, it's too slow for Legacy. That turn it costs you is simply a turn you don't have. The best options for the Cloud-slot presently in my opinion are Cloud and Pestermite. Both cards have lots of uses, but really, Pestermite has been so stellar for me I'm perfectly happy with my perfect config. This again works towards the direction of making every creature as threatening as possible alone - a 2/1 is already much bigger a threat than a 1/1.

Tacosnape

10-10-2008, 11:58 AM

socialite

10-10-2008, 12:49 PM

I fail to see why there are so many threats being bandied around in this thread. Where's the room for them coming from?

Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, and Mulldrifter all belong. -Maybe- you could make arguments for only running three Trinkets or three Mulldrifters. But I'm going to go so far as to say that's 16 threats, right there.

Cloud of Faeries is still awesome. Cloud of Faeries is even more awesome now that Sigil of Distinction exists. Oh, and Cloud of Faeries is also even more awesome now that we like to do things like, you know, stickcast Mulldrifters for 5. So in my book, we're at 20 threats.

Beyond that, there's Pestermite versus Sower of Temptation versus Glen Elendra Archmage. This, to me, is the equivalent to Dragon Stompy's Sulfur/Mauler/Akroma battle for the last few slots. I don't like Sower maindeck as I'd rather just fly over Tarmogoyfs. I love Glen Elendra for what it does against control (Picks up Equipment and swings twice). The spell thing is neat if I've actually got mana to leave open but I don't use it much. Pestermite's just generally awesome and is what I pick currently.

My maindeck list, as it stands:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Chrome Mox

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Trinket Mage
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Mulldrifter
3 Pestermite

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sigil of Distinction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

Word.

Question, what do you do in response to Empty the Warrens with no main deck Engineered Explosives. I assume it isn't really needed as Belcher will most likely fold to your Force of Will or Chalice and The Epic Storm will be slowed enough by Chalice of the Void to kill them before tokens are even a factor, not to mention Tendrils of Agony is their main kill. Am I correct in this assumption? Maybe I should try removing mine from the main deck.

Side note: 1 Sigil of Distinction is really all that is needed, I was running 2 but found this to be too much after some playing. So I whole heartily agree with you running 1 in your list.

Tacosnape

10-10-2008, 12:58 PM

Question, what do you do in response to Empty the Warrens with no main deck Engineered Explosives. I assume it isn't really needed as Belcher will most likely fold to your Force of Will or Chalice and The Epic Storm will be slowed enough by Chalice of the Void to kill them before tokens are even a factor, not to mention Tendrils of Agony is their main kill. Am I correct in this assumption? Maybe I should try removing mine from the main deck.

That assumption's not entirely correct. Your general plan is correct, but there's no way around it; EE makes the matchups better.

But while Engineered Explosives does help a ton against ETW-packing decks? It just doesn't really do much else at all. The only other great act EE performs is sweeping 1-CMC objects, which is at its best against Goblins or Survival, and it's neat that it plays around a Chalice if you pay :u::u: for it. But I'm already struggling to have enough slots for everything I want to run (Light and Shadow, for instance, is insane with Mulldrifter, and I want to fit it in). And there are a ton of games where I see Engineered Explosives and groan, wishing that it were almost anything else.

EDIT: For the record, one does currently reside in my sideboard.

Side note: 1 Sigil of Distinction is really all that is needed, I was running 2 but found this to be too much after some playing. So I whole heartily agree with you running 1 in your list.

1 is max. Period. Anything more is a bad idea, as Sigil is a weaker equipment than Jitte, SOFI, and SOLS. I'm still not convinced the thing's 100% necessary, and I have other cards itching for the slot. Still, it makes a midgame Trinket Mage not an awful topdeck. Which is probably reason enough to keep running one.

Arsenal

10-10-2008, 01:25 PM

Is 20 threats too low in this deck? I was thinking of running 20 threats & 6 equipment. I see that in those European lists, a guy ran 21 threats + 7 equipment.

Media314r8

10-10-2008, 02:59 PM

::WARNING: LONG POST ABOUT ODDS INVOLVING CHROME MOX vs DIAMOND MOX::

Take a theoretical deck, lets call it faerie stompy. In this deck, there are the following creatures, typically 18, (those in bold essentially non-debatable):

4 Cloud of Faeries (1U)
4 Sea Drale (2U)
4 Serendib Efreet (2U)
4 Trinket Mage (2U)
2 Looter*/ Mulldrifter/ Sower/ Remove Soul x2 Faerie (1U/2U or 4U/2UU/ 3U)

and the following spells (again, bold pretty much set in stone):

4 Force of Will (free/pitch)
1 Pithing Needle/EE/Crypt/Tutorable singleton (0/1/2 to set at 0 and kill Etw Tokens)
4 Chalice (often (1)(1), ideally (2)(2))
5-7 Equips at (2) or (3)

and the deck runs approximately 22 mana sources as it is:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat
9 Islands
4 Chrome Mox

This leaves 4-6 slots (depending on how much you like your equipment) for customization. Many people throw 2-4 additional critters and 0-2 additional artifact singletons to finish their list. Lets assume we go with modal 6 equips, 4 more guys and 1 more artifacts. (Ill pick weatherseed fairies to bump up to 3, with an additional sower, as loam and goblins are gaining popularity.) Our Theoretical List:

Notional Faerie Stompy:

Creatures : 22

4 Cloud of Faeries (1U)
4 Sea Drale (2U)
4 Serendib Efreet (2U)
4 Trinket Mage (2U)
3 Weatherseed Faeries (2U)
3 Sower (2U)

Spells: 16
[B]4 Force of Will (free/pitch)
4 Chalice (often (1)(1), ideally (2)(2))
3 SOLS (3)
3 SOFI (3)
1 Crypt (0 )
1 Pithing Needle (1)

Mana Sources: 22
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat
9 Islands
4 Chrome Mox

Now that we have an average list, let's talk about odds. First, we'll look at opening hands. I'm going to assume an ideal hand has 2U available, a fat dude or a cloud with an equipment to become fat, and either a force with backup, or a chalice.

THE FOLLOWING ODDS ARE FOR GAME 1, WITH A 50/50 CHANCE OF DRAWING/PLAYING, THUS AVERAGES ARE FOR HANDS OF 7.5 CARDS.

Odds of opening hand having a fat dude or a cloud + equip: Fat dudes: Sea Drake/Serendib constitute 8/60 cards, 13% chance per card in sixty x 7.5 cards (half the time you play/draw) = .97 copies of a fat dude in an average hand in a vacuum. Seems swell. The odds of having a force or a chalice are the same, but what about an active force? (considering we don't want to pitch our fat guy) The average numbers of forces in hand: 4/60 x 7.5 = .48. The average number of blue cards in hand: 26/60 x 7.5 = 3.22, so odds are if we have a force, we have something to pitch it to. The odds that blue card one is a force, and one a big dude: 8/26 30% each blue card of being a fat dude/ 15% a force, thus IF you have a fat dude, you will have a 15% x 2.22= 33% chance of having a force in the remaining 2.22 blue cards in your hand.

Your average opening hand will contain 2.25 lands, and of those, you have a 44% chance of each being a two-mana land, thus you will average .99 two mana lands per opening hand. You will have a chrome mox 45% of the time, and should you have one, 33% of the time you have the mox it will be competing with FoW for the third blue card in-hand. This, IMO makes casting a first turn fattie and protecting it from removal highly unlikely, and if you chose to pitch the second fattie/utility guy in hand in hopes of drawing another blue spell to protect said fattie with... if he DOES eat a StP or bolt in the meanwhile, you are SOL unless you've got that chalice in hand in addition to your third blue card or a fourth blue card. (In this situation, to review, we have 1 fattie, 1 force, 1.22 other blue cards, a chrome mox, and two lands, one of which was a 2-mana land, leaving 1 card to (by the odds) be a chalice/equip/utility artifact.) The odds of that last card being a chalice or a fourth blue card in this scenario are 4/54x1.5 + .22= 32%. So in our ideal scenario, (our 'God hand' will happen with a force AND a mox to go with the fattie, other blue card, and two mana land + island .45 x .33 = 14% of the time) 78% of the time, we chose between playing our one-mana land and saying 'go', or imprinting our third blue card on mox and casting our fattie turn one without force protection, either holding a force and hoping for another blue card (23/53 = 43% of cards on the first draw are blue) or imprinting the force and hoping the opponent doesn't play a must-counter spell, that we might drop the backup blue card in our hand in case our fattie gets removed, or drop a chalice next turn to stop the removal spell or cantrip-> removal in future turns. (10% initial, 7% chance each additional draw, you can factor in a trinket mage, but by the time he comes down and you cast the fetched chalice, your fattie likely already ate that removal spell if there was one)

:: Wow, this is a lot of odds and typing, I'll return to this for the math on hypothetical mox diamond list, as well as the odds of ever casting mulldrifter (not taking into account if he is countered when hard-cast, or if humility is in play, ect vs landstill) and how many cards you see from him vs looter.::

Now, let me make a diamond mox list by the simplest means possible: I’m going to remove three blue cards that would have been pitched to the chrome moxen as well as the moxen themselves and the pithing needle, which I personally don't like for the same reasons people dislike relic, adding four lands and four mox diamonds. (to achieve the 22 land threshold for reliably casting diamond ironicly.)

Notional Diamond FS:

Creatures : 19

4 Cloud of Faeries (1U)
4 Sea Drale (2U)
4 Serendib Efreet (2U)
4 Trinket Mage (2U)
3 Sower (2U)

Spells: 15
4 Force of Will (free/pitch)
4 Chalice (often (1)(1), ideally (2)(2))
3 SOLS (3)
3 SOFI (3)
1 EE (X )

Mana Sources: 26
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat
1 Vault
1 Academy Ruins
11 Islands
4 Mox Diamond

Again, Ill be using the odds for 7.5 cards, (50/50 game 1 of draw/playing) and again we will usually open with a fattie (.97 copies of said fattie) We’ve removed three blue spells, and now have an average of 2.85 blue cards per opening hand. Our chances of drawing the force to go with our fattie is now 4/23 = .17 x 1.85 = 31%. This 2% less than the chrome mox build, which is counter-intuitive, as we still run four forces in a 60 card deck, but is due to assuming we have a fattie, (otherwise, the hand is likely unplayable, and thus mulliganed… which would be a whole ‘nother can of worms/stats) and the fact that we now have fewer blue cards in our average hand. The average hand in Diamond FS will contain 2.7 lands, a significant increase from the 2.25 in the Chrome Mox build. We still will have an average of .99 two-mana lands per opener, and a 45% chance of seeing our mox.

I digress to remind the reader of the ideal hand in Chrome FS:

So in our ideal Chrome FS scenario, (our 'God hand' will happen with a force AND a mox to go with the fattie, other blue card, and two mana land + island .45 x .33 = 14% of the time) 78% of the time, we chose between playing our one-mana land and saying 'go', or imprinting our third blue card on mox and casting our fattie turn one without force protection, either holding a force and hoping for another blue card (23/53 = 43% of cards on the first draw are blue) or imprinting the force and hoping the opponent doesn't play a must-counter spell, that we might drop the backup blue card in our hand in case our fattie gets removed, or drop a chalice next turn to stop the removal spell or cantrip-> removal in future turns. (10% initial, 7% chance each additional draw, you can factor in a trinket mage, but by the time he comes down and you cast the fetched chalice, your fattie likely already ate that removal spell if there was one)

The ideal hand in Diamond FS:

So in our ideal Diamond FS scenario, (our 'God hand' will happen with a force AND a mox to go with the fattie, .85 other blue cards, and two mana land + island .45 x .31 = 13% of the time) We only have an average of .85 excess blue cards to pitch to force, so only 85% of the time we will have an active force to protect our fattie with. (in Chrome FS, we have a 22% chance of having an active force in addition to having a blue card to imprint on mox)

Since our average Diamond FS hand has a two-mana land and 1.7 other lands, we should, provided we open with the mox (45%), have three mana on the first turn with a turn one fattie, 1.7 other lands, and 1.85 other blue cards. I, personally prefer this to Chrome FS which, provided they have a mox, should open with a turn one fattie, 1.2 other lands, and 1.22 other blue cards. (as they must pitch one)

Should neither deck open with a mox, (which happens 55% of the time, we can’t always live in ‘God hand’ or ‘1st turn fattie hand’ land) Diamond FS will have, on average, 1 two mana land, and 1.7 one mana lands, with a 36% chance of drawing an additional land on their next draw. Chrome will have, on average, 1 two mana land, and 1.2 other one manalands, with a 30% chance of drawing an additional land on their next draw.

-- “Why would you bring this up, media? I’d prefer to, if I don’t have the mox, have only 2.2 lands including one two mana land, with a higher threat density so that I can keep pumping out dudes. Having 2.7 lands, including one two mana land seems like mana-flood, and that’s not what I want in my Aggro-Control Stompy deck. I thought you were supposed to be making a case for the Diamond build, not the Chrome build”

Well, as anyone who has played Dungeons and Dragons or any similar dice-based RPG can tell you, the ability to ‘take a 10’ (always have your random ‘roll’ be a ten without the element of chance) is insane. It’s the god-damns, because, in any game of chance, when you roll on the lower side of that d20, you’re wishing you’d had a 10, even though the mathematical average should be a 10.5. This pertains to my argument as even though you mathematicly should have 1 fattie and 1 two mana land per hand, this is not always the case, and the average takes into account hands that have 0 two mana lands as well as hands that have 2, 3, or more two mana lands. (though it’s highly unlikely, anyone who’s played this game long enough can tell you fish tales about how they’ve mulled from a seven card all-land hand to a six-card no-land hand, down to a four card hand with al lands that they just threw up their hands and kept) Thus, having an average of 2.7 lands in your opener diminishes the odds that you will be unable to cast any of your spells as you only have 1 mana lands. With 12 of your threats at 2U, three at 2UU, and only four at 1U, IF you happen to open with only one mana lands, having an average of three one-mana lands is going to mean less mulling than having an average of 2.25. (and subsequent mulligans become less painful, as at six cards, your average Chrome FS hand only has 1.8 lands, and at six cards, you really don’t want to be imprinting dudes on moxen. This is opposed to Diamond FS, which at six cards still has an average of 2.16 lands, and still has an average of 1.8 lands in five cards, which chrome has at six)

I would now like to throw my hat into the ring in the case of looter il-kor’s inclusion in FS. So whichever build you decide to play will have an average of 2.25-2.7 lands per opener, looter’s job is to make hands like this that don’t contain moxen, fatties, or two mana lands playable. I often keep hands with turn two looter with force backup, as I know my deck has some serious gas in it, and when looter starts hitting, the gas will appear. Compare this to mulldrifter. He hits a turn slower, (assuming you didn’t keep the hand with your path to victory riding on hardcasting a 4U 2/2 flyer on turn five) and by turn three nets you two cards and an empty board. Compare this to looter, who, by turn two has dealt one damage to your opponent, and allowed you to filter through the top card. Looter will continue to do this the entire game, and by turn four, he’s allowed you to see just as many cards as mulldrifter did, and is already on the board, with evasion, poking at your opponent and waiting to pick up an equipment and start kicking ass. Council of the Sortomi is not what FS wants to do on it’s turn three, or even turn four. It wants to make evasive dudes and attack with them, hopefully with equipment or Force/chalice unbalancing the board in your favor. Recurring mull is cute, but who really can afford to be paying 2U a turn to draw cards. If you have the SOLS on a guy who’s connecting, there are more important things to do than play council… like casting another guy to ensure the win. Looter starts things a turn earlier, allows you to see the same number of cards by turn four, as well as freeing up your mana for a three drop turn three, which he will likely find you. (or an equipment… if mull finds an equip and no dude in his two, the game is likely over) I’ve tested mulls, and the only, ONLY times I ever hard-cast him were against stacks or landstill, and he didn’t get there either time. (he was a 4U vanilla 1/1 vs landstill w/o a CiP ability thanks to the humility they were able to find long before I wanted to spend 4U making a 2/2 flyer.) I can’t fathom how anyone is still playing this guy, he is inferior to looter, and has a CMC one higher than sower, who has one HELL of a bigger impact on the game state, with the same sized body. Looter’s CMC of two is a slight kick in the pants, and if he’d cycled and been a rare, I think he would be the best evasive beater short of Sea Drake, but even at two, as I’ve explained, he comes down before chalice 70-90% of the time, and can filter away future copies of CMC 2 cards once chalice is down. People still play jitte, (I prefer SOLS, as swords, smother, and snuff out see more play than bolt now thanks to a certain 5/6 for 1G) which is inherently a mid-late game card, so I ask, if jitte, why not looter?

To summarize, I know that I’ve lost my share of games with chrome FS by mulling into oblivion, and Diamond FS decreases the chances of having to mulligan (avg 2.7 lands vs avg 2.25 lands) while increasing the average number of blue cards you get to KEEP in your opener. (2.8 blue cards vs 3.22 blue cards – 1 = 2.22 if you have the mox… the POINT of playing chrome over diamond) Many of you will flame me in that openers you have do contain more blue cards, and you run more threats, but the POINT of running the best accel and tempo card in your deck is to sacrifice one of those cards to make a fattie on turn one, please take that into account. I hope I have made my argument for looter clear, and would like to point out that he also finds a welcome home in the Diamond build, as he makes mediocre hands keepable, and filters any excess lands that are unneeded.

PS: everyone test/run in the dark a copy of sigil, it really is the god-damns in FS as a tutorable one-of, it can make a late-game topdeck war into a one-sided, trinket mage bash fest.

Sorry for the six-page post. It took me even longer to write than it took you to read.

Tosh

10-10-2008, 03:12 PM

It took me even longer to write than it took you to read.

I lol'd.

I thought the post was well written and contains good information for the Chrome vs Diamond debate. I have not played with Diamonds before but it seems good (allows for EE at 2, which could be very relevant). The main point is that if you only have ~2 land in your opening hand (this includes the mox, right?) I could see someone making an argument that losing 1 land out of ~2 could be more harmful than losing 1 blue card out of ~3 since you run plenty more blue cards than land.

I do think Looter should be given a chance; however, I really like Mulldrifter.

socialite

10-10-2008, 03:13 PM

I really appreciate what you have written Media, even though it was longer than most primers on this forum.

Three things:

1. Mulldrifter is by no means debatable. I really do not understand why anyone would not run Mulldrifter. It has been gone over in not only this thread a dozen times but also on the MTG Salvation thread.

One U casting cost, flys, cantrips, pitches, and evokes. Card is nuts play it.

2. No matter how much math is done, one is still replacing main deck threats with land. This is bound to effect more than just opening hands.

Going back to Eldariel's post #831, I think he summed it up the best. In all honesty after reading his post you have to weigh the pros and cons of Mox Diamond and to be honest I cannot see a valid point in running it over Chrome. It is a good card, just not in this deck.

3. I still do not understand why people complain about mana inconsistency in this deck. Granted everyone gets mana floods and droughts once and a while, but to be honest Im starting to think the complaining is more of a byproduct of shitastic shuffling as I rarely have a problem.

Also: The Looter subject has been beat to death in multiple threads, IMHO AFAIR the conclusion was reached that it was total garbage.

Happy Gilmore

10-10-2008, 03:19 PM

Even with the little testing that I have done with the deck 3 cards have stood out for me, Mulldrifter, Sower, and Trinket Mage. The double blue cost of Sower rarely matters, and his ability is stellar. The only issue I had with the deck was mana consistency. I run 19 lands and 4 moxen, but even then it seems low at times. I don't think adding more is correct, but if there is one issue with the deck, this is it.

Media314r8

10-10-2008, 03:40 PM

No matter how much math is done, one is still replacing main deck threats with land. This is bound to effect more than just opening hands.

In my notional decks, 3 threats were cut with 1 artifact for 4 lands. The deck now runs 19 threats instead of 22. The math comes in when you consider that in Chrome and Diamond FS, you WANT the mox, and with Chrome, that means picthing one threat.

Let's say an average game with FS lasts 6 turns. In these 6 turns, you will see 12 or 13 cards. (we'll go with 12.5) This is barring evoking mulls, looting, or cycling faeries, as if you are evoking mulls, IMO, you're well on your way to losing or already winning. Thus:

Avg threat per card in Chrome: (22/60)= .36 x 12.5 = 4.5 threats you will see during the game, and you WANT to pitch one of those in your opener. END threats able to be cast over a six-turn game: 3.5

Avg threat per card in Chrome: (19/60)= .31 x 12.5 = 3.87 threats you will see during the game, you pitch lands, not threats. END threats able to be cast over a six-turn game: 3.87

you have to see TWENTY cards in order to have AS MANY castable threats in Chrome vs Diamond assuming you pitch one to a chrome mox, add to that the fact that if you have excess lands and a COT, in Diamond you can pitch a land and keep your city, while in Chrome, you must pitch a threat if you want to keep your city. The issue is more in-depth than 'oh, your list has less dudes, that means you'll end up drawing less guys.' After twenty cards (on turns 15+) then yes, the threat density plays in favor of the Chrome list, so you got me there.

@ Mulls vs Looter:

Think what you want about looter, but I cannot understand the fascination with mulls. Thirst was cut long ago and I consider it to rank just under mulls, as it digs deeper, and mulls is often never hardcast save for when it's irrelevant, but some will argue the case of CB. Newsflash: If thresh or another control deck has resolved CB and you don't have an army of flyers bashing their face in, resolving a 2/2 flyer around it that draws you two more cards to have countered by CB isn't winning that game against their goyfs and mongeese. My other gripe is that this deck is still playing the same mana base as it was back when most lists ran the 1/1 pro red faerie. People are now suggesting, with the SAME manabase, running CMC 5 and CMC 4 guys. Jesus! At least bump up the land count if you plan on making it to the late game to cast these Goliaths. I've TESTED Mulls, and he is really, REALLY awkward in your opener... do you imprint his CMC 5 ass to cast your aggressive cards, or hold out and HOPE you hit five mana. You certainly, if you have the chalice or equips, set them before casting a council. I like his versatility in theory, but think he doesn't belong in this deck- he is not aggressive nor does he make enough of an effect on the gamestate for the 4U pricetag.

/rant, promise. I'm a math major, it really annoys me when people argue the 'well, do all the math you want, it usually works out fine for me.' angle.

Media314r8

10-10-2008, 04:01 PM

Now that I've vented, an updated list for the Diamond Version of FS:

// Lands
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
11 [10E] Island (1)
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [P2] Sea Drake
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
4 [R] Serendib Efreet
3 [TSP] Looter il-Kor

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction
1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda

socialite

10-10-2008, 04:03 PM

I don't know about you but I prefer cards that are good on their own and do not require other cards either in hand or in the deck to function properly.

Common sense:
More threats that can be pitched to a Chrome Mox that also happen to be good on their own.

Or less threats with more land that can only be pitched to Mox Diamond or played once a turn. Last time I checked pitching an Island to Force of Will didn't work.

Less math, less theory-crafting, more actual testing.

Media314r8

10-10-2008, 04:10 PM

With all due respect, I've previously stated that I've been playing and testing the deck since first building it in 2005. I played it at the Columbus GP, and have won several local tournaments with it, including beating vintage worlds champ Smendian with it at his own tournament. (the chrome mox version at that) I've tested both, and both have their merits, but I've become frustrated at recent Mox tournaments where you play so many rounds that you eventually lose a round to mulling into oblivion with the Chrome version, so I'm now explaining the mathematical truths about the two different versions of the deck I've played. I currently prefer pitching lands to my mox and being more reliably able to play my spells when I do not have a mox. (again, why I run looter- for consistancy) IMO if Faerie Stompy was more consistent, it would be a DTB rather than a DTW. I'm tired of losing in the quarters or finals because I cant open with a mox and have to pitch two land hands. (or end up losing to a speculated waste on my only two mana land)

Captain Hammer

10-10-2008, 04:25 PM

I see Looter and Mulldrifter as functionally very different. Looter comes out super early. At 2cc, it's the only playable threat off of a first turn Chrome Mox + Island. Mulldrifter is ideally played last, when you can spend 5 mana and use it optimally, as both a threat and a way to refill your hand.

So I don't think they should be compared really. Both are very good at what they do.

Media, what card exactly do you hope to draw with Looter. Ideally, you're usually looking for another threat to draw into, say a Serendib Efreet.

Infiltrator costs the same 2 mana as Looter does. It comes out to attack the same turn you would cast that Serendib assuming you draw it. It beats for the same amount of damage as Serendib. But it doesn't require you to spend two mana or discard a card.

Zinch

10-10-2008, 04:44 PM

I think you are "overmathemating" the issue, Media... Yes in a 6 turn game you have more odds to draw a threat with the diamond version, but this is assuming all of this:

1.- You have a mox in your oppening
2.- You want to play the mox in the first turn (you can play a chalice without playing the mox)
3.- You pitch a threat to the mox (there are situations where is better to pitch a Fow, for example)

Then, and only then you want the diamond version...
But, even then, have realised that a threat in the 6th turn in a 6 turn match is useless?? The maths aren't so easy
Or a hand with a two mana land, another land and chalice?? Then the chrome version will have more threats
And so on...

socialite

10-10-2008, 06:07 PM

Id also like to note that the majority of the time only one Chrome Mox is used, thus only one "Threat" is lost. Allowing for the other three "Threats" to be drawn into and used, with Mox Diamond those three other threats become lands.

No thanks.

Been playing with it a little today. All I can really say is MEH.

Eldariel

10-10-2008, 10:39 PM

I'm not sure if you do it intentionally, Media, but your math contains a rather relevant error: You count Mox Diamond as a mana source. That's plain mistake and the prime reason I don't run it over Chrome Mox. With Mox Diamond, a hand of two Islands and Mox is unkeepable. With Chrome Mox, it's generally an easy keep. With Mox Diamond, City/Tomb+Mox is unkeepable. With Chrome, it can often be the best possible hand you could have. You're also not selling the advantage the build really has: You get to play more blue/utility lands (especially Academy Ruins)! However, I don't think that outweights the poor topdecking generated by running 26 lands (that's like screaming "Flood me!")

As far as Mulldrifter goes, we'll draw a few lands into the first few turns of the game. Those lands tend to be enough. As the format is very heavily focused on reactive decks, Mulldrifter generally has time to resolve, especially against control. And that's where you want it the most. However, FS isn't limited to playing aggro in all matches - the ability to assume the control-role vs. e.g. Goblins for the early game is golden and having access to Mulldrifter really helps with that. Basically, you won't cast it from the opener, but generally in the first 3-4 turns you'll have the mana to do so (sometimes it requires using Trinket, but bleh). I evoke it maybe once in twenty game (or when playing vs. Ichorid) or when I'm digging for tools (things value a bit differently against combo - having access to that Chalice/Force is more important than an immediate threat), but whenever it is in my hand, I tend to end up hardcasting it.

Seriously, we draw that second two-mana land quite often and leading into Mulldrifter basically means that there's nothing that Rocky McRock/Landstill/whatever can do to stop me. Further, it ensures beats vs. Threshold, not to mention increases the likelihood of drawing Sower of Temptation, Pestermite or fatties. Of course, it doesn't fall into the Diamond-version as easily, since having more landcards means your average draw is significantly weaker. That also makes Looter "better" since you've got more trash to pitch to it.

Illissius

10-11-2008, 07:57 AM

Mox Diamond is not a mana source unless you're running Loam or Crucible. It's best to think of it like this:

Mox Diamond
0
Sorcery
Put a land card from your hand into play.

(It actually turns the land into a painless City of Brass, but close enough.)

But not being a mana source also means that it's pointless to consider that you can keep a hand with X lands and Chrome Mox but not X lands and Mox Diamond, because Mox Diamond isn't a mana source -- it takes the place of a spell.

In one case, you're running

18 lands + 4 Chrome Mox = 22 mana sources
38 spells

While in the other, you have

22 lands = 22 mana sources
4 Mox Diamond + 34 spells

The equivalent comparison would be either X-1 lands, Chrome Mox, and 6-X spells, or X lands, Mox Diamond, and 5-X spells. A hand with a single City/Tomb would be just as unkeepable whether you draw it with Mox Diamond or any other spell.

Anyways, Mox Diamond (see above) is clearly card disadvantage, because it doesn't actually do anything. But, as was helpfully pointed out, so is Chrome Mox -- either you pitch a card to it, or it likewise does nothing. The difference is that, if they do nothing, Mox Diamond is a spell which does nothing, whereas Chrome Mox is a land which does nothing -- which is mitigated by the fact that most of the time, you'll be pitching a spell to Chrome Mox as well. In the case where you draw either X-1 lands and Chrome Mox or X lands and Mox Diamond, with the remainder spells, and pitch a spell to Chrome Mox, you'll end up with the same number of spells left in your hand in either case.

The main differences are:

1) A deck with Chrome Mox will have better topdecks, because while either Mox is a terrible topdeck, again, Chrome Mox is a "land" which is a blank while Mox Diamond is a "spell" which is a blank, and lands are worse topdecks than spells, so you lose less by drawing a Mox instead of it. This is the main advantage of Chrome Mox.

2) With Mox Diamond, you choose which cards to cut for it during deck construction, or, for the geeks out there, compile time. With Chrome Mox, you choose which cards to pitch during gameplay, or runtime. I'm not sure which one has the advantage here. Most of the time, you'll cut the worst spells in the deck for Mox Diamonds, and pitch those same spells to Chrome Mox, which is a wash. The difference is if you don't draw your worst spell with Chrome Mox and have to pitch a better one, which means your topdecks will be slightly worse (as the worse spell is still in your deck), which is a small minus, while on the other hand, which spell is actually worse is liable to vary by matchup and situation, so you might want to pitch a different spell with Chrome Mox (which you don't get to do with Diamond), so that's a small plus. Let's call this one a draw.

3) You can cut nonblue cards for Mox Diamond, but you can't pitch nonblue cards to Chrome Mox. If the worst card(s) in your deck are nonblue, this could be pretty relevant. This is the main advantage of Mox Diamond.

Three other, smaller benefits of Mox Diamond:

- It makes Back to Basics out of the board better, because you can pitch your nonbasic :2: lands to it, giving you up to an effective 18 mana sources which work under B2B.

- It makes it slightly easier to cast :u::u: spells, because you can occasionally pitch a colorless :2: land to it.

- It makes it much easier to splash a color, because obviously (1) it makes mana of any color, but also (2) it's easier to fit a fetch+duals manabase into 14 colored lands than into 10, and (3) you don't have the awkwardness you do with Chrome Mox where you pitch a spell of one color but want to play a second spell of a different color.

Overall, I think Chrome Mox has a slight edge, but it's by no means a huge one. I could definitely see a good, viable Mox Diamond build being a possibility, especially if it cuts nonblue cards for the Diamonds.

socialite

10-11-2008, 10:41 AM

Thanks Illissus.

Until I find a color I want to splash, which is unlikely at this time, Ill just stick with Chrome Mox.

I also run mono blue so I have nothing to cut for Mox Diamond.

On top of that Im not sure which bad cards I would cut for Mox Diamonds in the first place. Many people would say Cloud of Faeries but it allows for some broken starts. Running 7 untap effects via Cloud of Faeries and Pestermite is quite nice with Back to Basics.

Im still sold on MEH for Mox Diamond.

Mountain Man

10-11-2008, 12:00 PM

socialite

10-11-2008, 12:13 PM

I have played Dragon Stompy lately and I like Trinisphere a lot.
Now I play Faerie Stompy and I am asking myself if 3-4 Trinisphere would be good in the maindeck because it annoys many opponents. The problem is that there is absolutely no synergy between Force of Will and Trinisphere.

Currently I have not much experience with Faerie Stompy, so I have two questions to you:

(1) Does Trinisphere fit in the maindeck of Faerie Stompy?

(2) If Trinisphere fit in the maindeck, would you cut Force of Will?

Sure I know Trinisphere counters no spell but Force of Will does, otherwise one Force of Will only hurts one time where Trinisphere could hurt oftener.

1. Yes it does and it has been used in the past to fight combo. Unfortunately as you pointed out it it is not optimal.

2. No.

3. Chalice at 1 is better.

4. You really should do a thread search for Trinisphere, so we do not have to rehash what has already been discussed in this thread. (On the first page for that matter and so you can get a better explanation).

Malloot

10-12-2008, 02:43 PM

Could Chronozoa be a good replacement for Sea drake if your unable to get 4?
When he dies of age it becomes quite scary....

socialite

10-12-2008, 02:57 PM

Could Chronozoa be a good replacement for Sea drake if your unable to get 4?
When he dies of age it becomes quite scary....

Casting cost is off, 2U is really important in my opinion.

Id rather play Rishadan Airship, though Im sure there has to be a better choice than that.

JeroenC

10-12-2008, 03:11 PM

1. It doesn't cost 2U, but 3U, which makes it infinitely worse than Sea Drake.
2. It won't die of age. And even if it would, that would still hold you back a turn as the tokens have summoning sickness. Too slow.

Illissius

10-12-2008, 04:53 PM

One thing I think my analysis clearly shows is that Mox Diamond is a much better choice for builds which want to splash a color. It's slightly worse than Chrome Mox, but only slightly, and inconsistency with Chrome has always been what has torpedoed efforts to splash another color. (For someone reason, people's default impression -- including mine -- was that Chrome Mox is a massively better choice for decks without Loam or Crucible. But that's just simply not true). With Diamond itself and 14 colored lands -- the same amount Wasteland Threshold has -- splashing a color becomes almost trivial. Hell, even two of them would be easy.

So the question becomes: What is there we might want to splash for?

Here's what I can think of:

Black
Shriekmaw
Makeshift Mannequin :)
Phyrexian Negator?
Dark Confidant?
Bitterblossom?
Snuff Out?
Nether Void?
Engineered Plague
Perish?
Last Rites?

Red
Flametongue Kavu
Magus of the Moon
Blood Moon?
Gathan Raiders?
Pyroclasm
Rough // Tumble
Firespout

White
Oblivion Ring
Windborn Muse
Glowrider?
Moat?
Exalted Angel?
Battlegrace Angel?
Armageddon?
Parallax Wave?
Cataclysm?
(almost all of these are :w::w:...)

Green
Spawnwrithe
Call of the Herd?
Tarmogoyf?
Krosan Grip?

socialite

10-12-2008, 05:18 PM

I think the better question is what can be splashed that will make certain match-ups better without making the deck inconsistent?

Personally Id have to go with none.

The cards on that list are non factors and the majority I can think of off the top of my head are rather disappointing.

If we were to splash Id have to say anything with double colored casting cost is a no no.

Im not really interested in making a splash and Im not quite sure it is appropriate for this thread. That aside, does anyone have something in mind of note that would actually be worth it?

Media314r8

10-12-2008, 06:05 PM

Im not really interested in making a splash and Im not quite sure it is appropriate for this thread. That aside, does anyone have something in mind of note that would actually be worth it?

EE at 2. Fetchable. With academy ruins. Sex. (possibly a few slaughter pacts or a single executioner's capsule in the board) Anything worth the splash IMO should also be castable if you can't use get the second color- EE still kills EtW tokens, goblins, needles, and mongeese just fine with (1) or (U), and pact can kill an exalted so you can swing for the win even if you wouldnt be able to pay the upkeep next turn. IMO bob, ect is not the direction this deck wants to take, as chalice at 2 is the goal, and bob + high CMC fat + tomb = not a combo.

Last comment on Mox vs Chrome:

(sigh) Math has eluded several of you. If Chrome does not have the mox, they likely have two lands, and this leads to sub-par or unkeepable hands, hoping you hit more lands and/or hoping your opponent doesn't wasteland while you wait on your second turn guy. Diamond minimizes this risk by running more lands, so in the 55% of hands without the mox, the hand is still likely keepable. With the mox, Diamond build has on average MORE threats than Chrome. Stop looking at your 'my list has 22 threats, yours only has 19...' elementary school math and read my post. Losing a threat IN HAND to chrome is incredibly significant, more so than you all seem to realize, as opposed to losing a land in hand. Thus until the 20th card, that one pitched threat will mar your odds and the Diamond list will have more castable threats.

Chrome:
If you don't have the mox (55%):
More threats, less lands to cast them with... can lead to more mulligans, but IF you hit your lands, better topdecking.
If you have the mox (45%):
Less threats until turn 15, as you pitched one of the 3.25 in your opener. More overall threats in your deck... in case your opponent is playing 4x extirpate main... more chaff (pestermite, ect) but you chose the chaff that is pitched.

Diamond:
If you don't have the mox (55%):
Less threats, but more lands, so you will probably be able to cast the threats in your hand. More resistant to wasteland hits on two mana lands, as it will likely not cripple you. Less chance of mulliganing.
If you have the mox (45%):
More threats, as you dont have to pitch one of the initial threats in hand- you pitch a land.

I personally think that the lessened probability of having to mull when the mox doesnt show makes the Diamond version more consistent. (not saying better- the chrome is more explosive if you get good hands with JUST enough lands) Personally, I prefer to pilot a more consistent, slightly less explosive, as I play the odds, not what looks better on paper. If you don't understand or believe my math, feel free to just drop the Diamond list as a list 'with less threats,' but my posts have been to simply prove the merits of a diamond list, and mathematically explain that lists using diamond mox can be competitive. Pros and cons to both, make your choice, but understand that chrome is not the end all, be all.

socialite

10-12-2008, 06:46 PM

Many of us ran Engineered Explosives at [2] via two fetches and a blue dual. I forget why Eldariel and a few others dropped it, they did post about it in this thread. I dropped it because it opened me up to random jank like Stifle and Pithing Needle on the fetchland. Not to mention while Engineered Explosives at [2] is cute in this format, I don't think it is a necessity and it hits a decent amount of my own creatures/equipment.

Mox Diamond isn't worth it in my opinion. Im not going to argue about it anymore. Do what you like.

Tacosnape

10-12-2008, 11:08 PM

Could Chronozoa be a good replacement for Sea drake if your unable to get 4?
When he dies of age it becomes quite scary....

No. Chronozoa, even in a world of no Sea Drakes, isn't better than any combination of:

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Trinket Mage
4 Mulldrifter
4 Pestermite
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Sower of Temptation

Which should more than cover your threat base.

Also, Mox Diamond? Really, people? Are we not any further along than that? Diamond is garbage in Chalice Aggro. Running more lands is awful. Chrome Mox packing builds will often have, say, 3 blue cards in your hand where you'll have to imprint one, whereas Diamond builds would have two without you having to imprint one. Therefore, with Chrome Mox, you get to pick the least useful card of the three to imprint, keeping 2. With Mox Diamond, you're stuck with those 2.

socialite

10-12-2008, 11:41 PM

Also, Mox Diamond? Really, people? Are we not any further along than that? Diamond is garbage in Chalice Aggro. Running more lands is awful. Chrome Mox packing builds will often have, say, 3 blue cards in your hand where you'll have to imprint one, whereas Diamond builds would have two without you having to imprint one. Therefore, with Chrome Mox, you get to pick the least useful card of the three to imprint, keeping 2. With Mox Diamond, you're stuck with those 2.

I have been trying to say this but apparently have been unsuccessful at doing so as I am a non respected member of the community and as such would be called out for dismissing an idea directly. Everything people post as a pro for it makes no sense to me, but then again I have never been much for compiling mathematical data to support playing a card. I'd much rather outright play with it and use common sense.

That being said I honestly have to QFT that.

@ Malloot: If you cannot afford Sea Drakes, it would be in your best interest to just up the count of the solid bodies we already have like Tacosnape suggested. Although Im not so sure how much Im set on Glen Elendra Archmage as being a solid addition. I would probably just up the count of Sower of Temptation to 4 and run Sword of Light and Shadow. You are going to loose some explosiveness by having no Drakes but you gain a lot of stupid good utility with Sower and SoLS.

Captain Hammer

10-13-2008, 02:32 AM

Malloot

10-13-2008, 04:31 AM

ok thnx, ill just up on the other treats then.

@chrome vs diamond: i really think its not as easy as 4 chrome is better than 4 diamond or the other way around, as a in a deck with 4 trinket mage i think playing 3 chrome 1 diamond and/or 1 lotus petal whould be more useful in many situations incuding playing ee for 2. these things are all more focussed on the real game situations and math doesnt always help there

Media314r8

10-13-2008, 06:16 AM

Chrome Mox packing builds will often have, say, 3 blue cards in your hand where you'll have to imprint one, whereas Diamond builds would have two without you having to imprint one. Therefore, with Chrome Mox, you get to pick the least useful card of the three to imprint, keeping 2. With Mox Diamond, you're stuck with those 2.

See math on page 42. Do the math yourself if you don't believe me, but please don't make oversimplified, ignorant comments without at least reading the 3 hours of writing and statistics I did to prove otherwise. Diamond has an average of 2.85 blue cards in an opener, and Chrome has 3.22, and 45% of the time they picth one. Hardly a 2 blue cards vs 3 blue cards 'OMG my deck runs 3-4 more threats in a deck of 60!' Come on Taco, you've been here long enough - I didn't expect such a blindly biased comment from you.

/subject

@ replacement for drakes: looter/mulldrifter/TfK will likely dig you into your better, (more availible such as efreet, faeries, and mage) threats, and will decrease the number of inferior spells you play in lieu of Drake. (aka a 3/3 for 3U) I would recommend a few more lands and 3-5 of the above cards. More professionally, I would simply recommend you suck it up and buy 4 drakes, as it is the best beater in the deck, and I am not alone in believing if you can't afford to play a deck, play a cheaper one optimally rather than playing (this) deck with sub-optimal cards. See 'budget' threads for more info.

tl;dr: you wouldn't run thresh with out goyf, you shouldnt run FS without drakes.

Arsenal

10-13-2008, 10:34 AM

you wouldn't run thresh with out goyf, you shouldnt run FS without drakes.

There's a huge difference between a deck that has 4-8 TOTAL threats with 8+ ways to dig/draw for them and a deck that has anywhere from 20-24 threats and very few ways to dig/draw for them. I don't see how you can even compare the two.

socialite

10-13-2008, 10:40 AM

Several of you have posted in response to media "less math, more testing."

Well, clearly, media had said in several posts that he had been testing this mox diamond list and it's been better than the chrome mox lists he used to run.

On the other hand, have any of you guys bothered to test mox diamond. I suspect not.

Neither have I. I haven't got around to it.

But I think it's way to premature to write off this idea without giving it a little well deserved attention.

Been playing with it a little today. All I can really say is MEH.

Spent around 7 hours playing against Thresh/Loam/Belcher and Ichorid, not on MWS.

It is garbage Im sorry but it is, I really don't care about your opening hand math. There is a decision making process that comes with imprinting on Chrome Mox that cannot be broken down into percentages. The deck has more land that doesn't pitch to Force of Will and floods draws. Seeing as how most games I only imprint once that still leaves 3 more threats in the deck that would otherwise be useless chaff in the form of Islands or some stupid cute yet utterly useless utility land. Ill take the blue cards over more land and pass on Engineered Explosives at [2] and some most likely terrible splash cards.

Personally if you want to talk about splashes make another thread. Im not sure what else we can really focus on here as there hasn't been much in the ways of innovation for this deck but the current course of discussion is pointless.

scarlet_moon

10-13-2008, 12:59 PM

What about Lu Xun, Scholar General ? He has an excellent evasion (can only be blocked by creatures with horsemanship but can block creatures with or without horsemanship) and when he damages an opponent, you can draw a card.
His costs fit the mana-curve of the deck and equipment like the Swords are good with him.
My deck uses him in this way:

Land
10 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Creature
4 Sea Drake
4 Pestermite
4 Sower of Temptation
3 Lu Xun, Scholar General
4 Mulldrifter

Artifact
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sword of Light and Shadow

Instant
4 Psionic Blast
4 Force of Will

socialite

10-13-2008, 02:17 PM

UU Casting Cost
Weak Sauce Power/Toughness

No thanks.

Media314r8

10-13-2008, 03:19 PM

There's a huge difference between a deck that has 4-8 TOTAL threats with 8+ ways to dig/draw for them and a deck that has anywhere from 20-24 threats and very few ways to dig/draw for them. I don't see how you can even compare the two.

It was merely to illustrate how much weaker a deck is without the best creature in it. I am no means comparing Sea Drake in FS to Goyf in thresh, as the two decks play very differently, I am simply comparing the absence of the two and the impact of that absence on the rest of the deck.

What about Lu Xun, Scholar General ? He has an excellent evasion (can only be blocked by creatures with horsemanship but can block creatures with or without horsemanship) and when he damages an opponent, you can draw a card.

Next you'll be suggesting how we should include thieving magpie in FS... oh, you are? Not outside of 10th edition limited or cube thanks.

socialite

10-13-2008, 04:39 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette

read and learn

Im sorry.:cry:

To be honest, you posted no data, no reason for us to run this creature over the other strong staples of Faerie Stompy.

Making a post saying "this is good, I play it with Sword of Fire and Ice" isn't a very strong argument. Especially when the creature in question happens to be complete ass via casting cost and body size compared to everything else we run.

So again, I apologize if you are offended.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468

Read and Learn.

Captain Hammer

10-13-2008, 04:46 PM

Honestly, I would happily thresh running Werebears in place of Goyfs. Sure, you'll have a tough time against opposing decks running Goyfs. But Thresh was the best deck in the format even before Goyf was printed for a reason.

I would be more hesistant to build Fairie Stompy without Sea Drake though. Because IMO, Fairie Stompy is a very inconsistent deck. You'll lose more often with it than you do with Thresh (but when you win, you win big). And Sea Drake is half the reason to play the deck in the first place.

TL;DR: The only reason to play Fairie Stompy is because it's threats are so damn explosive. Why play the deck, if you can't play the very best threat in the deck.

Kuma

10-13-2008, 06:51 PM

There are flaws in your reasoning, Media314r8.

First, taking a 7.5 card hand for your math will give you misleading results. In Chalice Aggro, where you need many things to come together for an explosive hand, there is a huge difference between drawing seven and drawing eight. For example, in a seven card hand in Dragon Stompy, you have a ~34% chance of a turn one Moon on the play, but a ~50% chance on the draw. The more things you need to have a successful hand, the more important each draw becomes (and boy do we need a lot of things: 2 mana land, Chrome Mox, big beater, and an additional blue card.). On the play, and on the draw are too different to look at at the same time.

Your definition of an ideal hand isn't necessarily useful. What is more useful is to look at solid, keepable hands, which is what you'll be looking at most of the time. A hand of City, Chrome, Trinket, Pester, Mull, Sower, Island isn't ideal by your standards, but is one you would usually keep because it will usually get the job done.

The odds of getting a Drake/Serendib/cloud & equip + 2 mana land + Chrome Mox + blue card are ~12% otp and ~19% otd. The odds of that + FoW + blue card are ~1% otp and ~2% otd.

With Diamond and land instead of Chrome Mox and blue card, the odds of the above are ~12% and ~19%, virtually identical.

The problem is that the Chrome Mox build has more keepable hands and leads to better topdecking and flexibilty due to having more threats and Trinket targets. CM build also has 26 blue cards instead of 22 which helps you have an active FoW. Hands with 3 mana and lots of business are generally better than hands with lots of mana and a little business. That to me is the difference. With CM, you're imprinting a business spell, but you run more business spells. With Diamond, you discard a land, but you run more land.

It's not about the probability of getting some certain hand, it's about threat density.

Eldariel

10-14-2008, 06:56 AM

Alright, I took second in the Salvation Legacy Tournament. Lost to IBA 1-2 in the finals - got done in by his singleton Sacred Mesa G2 and 3. I simply wasn't able to play the Needle before I had to play Chalice at 1, and my SoLS got answered G2 and 3. I also had to spend Forces on auxillary targets in G2 due to going second and not having Mox opener, and G3 I just never drew one. I'll write the full report soon enough in the "Reports"-section.

Media314r8

10-14-2008, 07:42 AM

Does anybody know what is going on with MWS?

I have tested about 10 matches since last evening and I won none. NONE!
All due to horrible shuffling and unkeepable hands. (Pls, dont tell me that IDK how to mulligan. I play the deck for 6 months now.)

Is there some kind of shuffle patch in Alara update or what? If so, I dont like it.

I've been having sucess with The Diamond list, and have not mulled to less than six in the past week or so. I'll throw together a Chrome list and see if it has any problems, but I don't think it's the MWS shuffler or the ALA update.

Tacosnape

10-14-2008, 09:07 AM

See math on page 42. Do the math yourself if you don't believe me, but please don't make oversimplified, ignorant comments without at least reading the 3 hours of writing and statistics I did to prove otherwise.

I read it. Diamond is still awful. Seriously.

Several of you have posted in response to media "less math, more testing."

Well, clearly, media had said in several posts that he had been testing this mox diamond list and it's been better than the chrome mox lists he used to run.

On the other hand, have any of you guys bothered to test mox diamond. I suspect not.

I don't have to test Goblin Rock Sled to know it's awful in Vial Goblins.

@ Malloot: If you cannot afford Sea Drakes, it would be in your best interest to just up the count of the solid bodies we already have like Tacosnape suggested. Although Im not so sure how much Im set on Glen Elendra Archmage as being a solid addition. I would probably just up the count of Sower of Temptation to 4 and run Sword of Light and Shadow. You are going to loose some explosiveness by having no Drakes but you gain a lot of stupid good utility with Sower and SoLS.

In my defense, I'm not entirely positive G.E. Archmage is a great addition either. I'm just making the argument that it's better than Chronozoa. I personally think it might be better than Sower, but I haven't done enough testing to be sure.

Eldariel

10-14-2008, 09:34 AM

Alright, the report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11556). All I can say is, it's awesome to have gamelogs to build the report from. Much easier than offline. So, what're you waiting for? Go ahead!

Captain Hammer

10-14-2008, 09:40 AM

You're really comparing Goblin Rock Sledder to Mox Diamond. I was buying into your argument before you threw up that strawman. Look, Diamond might well be inferior to Chrome Mox. But dismissing it off hand by comparing it to crap cards isn't the right approach. I'm still waiting on getting my Mox Diamonds from ebay, but I'll give them a whirl in this deck as well once I do.

I had similar experiences on MWS.

I used to think that it was MWS that was notorious for giving horrible hands for Chrome Mox + 8 2 Mana Land Decks.

But recently, I've started pile shuffling because I've read that it's mathematically the best way to randomize your deck in the least amount of time.

And while pile shuffling has been great for most of my decks. Most Dragon Stompy and Fairie Stompy (my only Mox + 8 2 mana land decks) have been getting hands similar to the ones on MWS, nearly unkeepable.

So I'm curious, those of you who don't have much problem with the inconsistency in this deck, how are you shuffling it?

Mountain Man

10-14-2008, 10:11 AM

Nice report Eldariel and congratulations for 2nd place.
Are you going to substitute Misdirection for Glen Elendra Archmage in the sideboard after this tournament?
Recursions with Glen Elendra Archmage and Sword of Light and Shadow would be nice... :smile:

Eldariel

10-14-2008, 02:06 PM

I said as much in the report. I'm probably going to make the change afterwards. I'm also trying to fit a third Archmage on the SB, but I'll have to dwell on the possible choices a bit more later (BEB being the most likely candidate to be dropped one of). I'm really happy with the present build, although I'll be adding the Sigil afterwards. I'll have to test more now that I'm done with the old tourneys.

Mirrislegend

10-14-2008, 02:13 PM

How often do you guys find yourself wishing you were beating for more? Wishing the equipment gave a bigger buff? Sigil of Distinction is fetchable with Trinket Mage and seems to have immense damage potential, in return for no card advantage abilities. Also, free equip should help keep things moving along. Now, I've never played this deck, so I don't know how viable this suggestion is, if at all. Does this deck even end up producing enough mana for it to make much of a difference?

EDIT:
I started digging even further back, and eventually started to see some Sigils in lists. I'm assuming discussion on this topic has already been hashed out, so now I just want to know the verdict. Sigil of Distinction, yea or nay? How many and why?

Arsenal

10-14-2008, 02:19 PM

How often do you guys find yourself wishing you were beating for more? Wishing the equipment gave a bigger buff? Sigil of Distinction is fetchable with Trinket Mage and seems to have immense damage potential, in return for no card advantage abilities. Also, free equip should help keep things moving along. Now, I've never played this deck, so I don't know how viable this suggestion is, if at all. Does this deck even end up producing enough mana for it to make much of a difference?

Sigil has been gone over in the last 5(?) pages. Definitely an auto-include as a 1-of. No more, no less. In my limited online testing, it's been insanely good as a tutor target to get those extra points of damage across.

socialite

10-14-2008, 03:53 PM

You're really comparing Goblin Rock Sledder to Mox Diamond. I was buying into your argument before you threw up that strawman.

I believe he was referring to a previous argument where Media314r8 fought with myself and TeenieBopper over replacing Mogg Fanatic with Goblin Rock Sledder in Vial Goblins. You can go do a search in the Vial Goblins thread if you need a good laugh.

Also for the 3rd time people here have logged some time with Mox Diamond, myself included. I spent a good 8 hours this past week/weekend playing around with it. It is garbage.

On a side note awesome report Eldariel!

Arsenal

10-14-2008, 04:10 PM

Eldariel, what's this talk about 1x Cursed Scroll in the SB? Could you expound further?

Eldariel

10-14-2008, 05:36 PM

Eldariel, what's this talk about 1x Cursed Scroll in the SB? Could you expound further?

As you wish. It's often really easy to hit a control opponent low. However, if the gas isn't forthcoming or some sort of obstacle, such as Sacred Mesa, makes its presence known, there's a need to deal damage through blockers as non-combat damage to the face. Being fetchable and colourless, Cursed Scroll fulfills this role perfectly.

Since the need is pretty much exclusive to the control match, the card naturally needs to reside in the sideboard (it would be close to dead in others). It could be quite potent as a finisher there though - it breaks through almost all forms of defense the opponents can muster and isn't vulnerable to artifact removal either. It's a card I throw around every now and then. I even tested it MD at one point, but at that point, the meta contained little to no control-decks, which made it simply subpar. Now, however, there's a very relevant contingent of a variety of control-decks around and the card could be worthwhile. Better than Glen Elendra Archmage, I can't say, but worthy of consideration at any rate.

EDIT: Vs. Affinity, Needles are awesome. Their two biggest threats in Cranial and Ravager are both Needleable and same goes for the Vial if you've got Chalices, or such. EE comes in too. I'm not sure what to take out in the present version though - I'd probably go for SoLSes since they are quite fast for the card and don't really run enough removal to make it worthwhile. I'd also look into bringing Jittes in.

EDIT#2: My initial take on Sigil is "Yes, 1" as it turns Trinket into a credible threat all on its own, and allows fetching for equipment which can be critical in matches where you want to minimize your board commitment. However, as it's worse than Jitte, SoLS or SoFI, more than one is wrong since you literally never want it off the top of your library instead of another piece of equipment. But as I said, I haven't tested it yet so if it turns out somehow more clunky than it appears, or more awesome than it appears (or liable to die and thus needing a backup copy for the second Trinket), I'll retain the permission to change my opinion into 2 or 0. However, I'm almost 100% that the correct range is 2-0 - I can't see playing more than 2 in any build for any reason. And I'm leaning towards 1 right now.

Captain Hammer

10-19-2008, 03:03 PM

So guys, any thoughts on my newest build?

//Land
9 Island
1 Seat of Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

//Blue
4 Force of Will
4 Trinket Mage
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Sea Drake
4 Mulldrifter
2 Cloud of Fairies
2 Pestermite
2 Sower of Temptation

//Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawe's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sigil of Distinction

Is four 4cc Threats too top heavy?

Was going with Pestermite instead of Cloud of Fairies the correct call?

Are Chalice, Needle and Sigil sufficient Trinket Mage targets or should I be playing one ofs of Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus as well?

Is the 2/2 split with the two Swords an acceptable call or is Umezawe's Jitte just outright bad these days?

Is 14 blue sources good, or should I cut an Island?

VsTheWorld

10-19-2008, 04:08 PM

I played this yesterday to a 9th place finish (5-1-1) in the Source 5th Anniversary tournament. Apparently Faerie Stompy was a good metagame choice or something. Here's the list (more or less copy/pasted from Eldariel's):

// Lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Island

// Creatures
1 Shoreline Ranger
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Trinket Mage
4 Sea Drake
3 Sower of Temptation
4 Mulldrifter
3 Pestermite

// Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Pithing Needle
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Sigil of Distinction

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Trickbind

I've never been a fan of Misdirection in the board. I wanted to try Glen Elendra Archmage in that slot to help the Landstill matchup, but I was unable to get any before the tournament. Trickbind was the best option I could find as an answer to Deed. It probably could have been something better (additional Needles maybe?), but it didn't end up mattering over the course of the day. I'll post a mini report later tonight.

Captain Hammer

10-19-2008, 04:29 PM

If you're playing 4 Trinket Mage and 3 Sower of Temptation, then seriously, why NOT play a singleton Seat of Synod.

You've never had a situation where you had a Sower of Temptation (and Trinket Mage) in hand, and needed to steal something, but couldn't because you were stuck at one blue source?

Captain Hammer

10-19-2008, 04:39 PM

Kuma

10-19-2008, 04:44 PM

I rarely find myself wanting to find a Seat of the Synod with Trinket Mage. Chrome Mox is a better find with City of Traitors out, and Seat makes you more vulnerable to moons/Wastelock, which may or may not be a big deal.

I wouldn't maindeck Glen Elendra unless your meta was loaded with Landstill and/or Stax. Even then, I'd err on the side of putting it in the board. Four mana is difficult to achieve in Faerie Stompy, especially if you don't run Cloud of Faeries.

Your list is identical to mine except for -1 Mulldrifter, -2 Glen Elendra, -1 Seat, +1 Sower, +2 Pestermite, +1 Island. I wouldn't cut a blue source; I don't know how Eladariel manages with 13.

Illissius

10-19-2008, 04:53 PM

I find it interesting that in absolutely every single list, Cloud of Fairies is either played as a 4 of, or not played at all.

Is there a specific reason why Cloud of Fairies is an all or nothing card, a card that you either play 4 copies of, or don't play any copies of. Is the card only at it's best in multiples?

Or would it work fine as a 2 of?

I only ask because I'm subbing out my 2 maindeck Glen Alara Archmage for 2 Cloud of Fairies.

I think this is just because some people think Cloud of Faeries is really good and play a full set, while other people think it's not good and play none. People who think it's really good would sooner cut other cards than Clouds, so that's why you don't see any lists with a number in between.

Eldariel

10-19-2008, 06:13 PM

*snip*

Is four 4cc Threats too top heavy?

No, I don't think so. The question is more about what you're taking out than what you're putting in. That said, without Clouds, it may be hard to accelerate into Archmages. Still, it's a very solid creature.

Was going with Pestermite instead of Cloud of Fairies the correct call?

With Archmages, Clouds have increased utility. That said, I've been very happy with the switch to Pestermite, dealing with random things (such as Scepter Chant), improving the match against control, racing things and being big on its own right (and buying a turn in many MUs).

Are Chalice, Needle and Sigil sufficient Trinket Mage targets or should I be playing one ofs of Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus as well?

Unless your meta has extremely large numbers of Ichorid or Empty the Warrens-combo, I'd stick to the 3 you mentioned. The slots the other trinkets take tend to be more valuable than the fetchables themselves. EE is handy against Goblins, gravehate can have uses against control and is great against Loam-decks, but those aren't dominating the meta at any rate.

Is the 2/2 split with the two Swords an acceptable call or is Umezawe's Jitte just outright bad these days?

Depends. Jitte is kinda slow against Goyf, but still impressive. Against Goblins, Elves, Slivers, Merfolk and the like, Jitte is gold (hence the 3 on my SB).

Is 14 blue sources good, or should I cut an Island?

14 is the right number. I play one Shoreline, hence one less Island. I'd never go under 14 and may actually consider a 15th (but again, it's the cost of removing a card and flooding slightly more vs. the unplayable hands).

@VsTheWorld: Awesome and bummer! Too bad you didn't Top 8, but 9th is great. Really bummer to hear you lost to ANT - those Glen Elendra Archmages would've helped a lot there. Can't wait for your report!

@Hammer: Fetching Mox is usually just as good, as Kuma said. The few times Seat is better aren't worth the worse Back to Basics imho (although if I were to play without B2B, I'd immediately add Seat).

@Kuma: Shoreline works out as a blue source often enough to keep it together. That's how I do it ;)

Spardantevil

10-19-2008, 06:59 PM

Back from the GP Paris Legacy side event where I did like shit, 2/3 drop.

I can't fucking believe it: I went 2/0 beating Ichorid and Nauseam, then lost against High Tide (soo bad), False Cure (reaaaally bad) and -BRACE YOURSELVES-.... Mono W aggro/geddon.

Right now, I hate this deck so much... A deck that loses against decks that win nothing, moreover bad decks that are good MUs (I mean, HIGH TIDE MAN!!) doesn't deserve to be played. It has been my petdeck for like one year and a half, I've been pimping it seriously... But there's a limit to everything.

I just think I'll stop playing legacy for a moment. Or at least FS. Until Bazaar of Moxen 3.

JeroenC

10-19-2008, 07:32 PM

How do you lose against High Tide? I always thought that was one of the easiest matchups around... It's pretty much just a game you play on auto-pilot... Didn't you just have some bad luck? Feels weird to blame this on the deck.
Also, losing against decks that don't matter isn't really that bad, imho. Winning against decks that are good is more important than not losing to the others.

VsTheWorld

10-19-2008, 08:14 PM

Report time!

Round 1 - Kyle Dorgan playing Ad Nauseam Tendrils

G1: He wins the roll and leads with Swamp, go. I drop Tomb and Chalice at 1, not sure what he's playing. I'm holding a 2nd Chalice in hand, planning to drop it at 2 the following turn. He plays a fetch, thinks for about 3 minutes, fetches up an Island, dumps a hand of Chrome Moxen, Lotus Petals, and Cabal Rituals into Ad Nauseam. Crap. He gets a ton of cards before getting down to 4 life, but most are Dark Rituals and Mystical Tutors. He spends a few minutes thinking again, reveals one more card (Infernal Tutor) and moves to discard, passing the turn with 7 in hand. I drop my other Chalice at 0 on my turn, but I don't have any beaters. He EOT Rushing Rivers both Chalices and goes off for lethal on his turn.

(SB: -3 Sower, -1 SoLaS, +2 Crypt for IGG, +2 Trickbind)

G2: I open a 7 card hand of Drake, Mox, City, Pestermite, Island, Sword of Fire and Ice, Efreet. Damn. Great against anything, but no disruption = autoloss against combo. I mull to a 6 card hand with Chalice and turn 2 Trinket Mage. I drop turn 1 Chalice at 0 and Tomb. He passes without playing a land, discards LED. I play Trinket Mage, fetch a Chalice. He draws and discards another LED. I play Chalice at 1 and beat for 2. The next three turns consist of me casting 3 Mulldrifters digging for Force and beating him down to 5, putting myself to 16 off Tombs. He hits 2 land drops. At 5 life, he EOT Hurkyl's Recalls. Guess who couldn't find a Force off 3 Mulldrifters *points to self*. He has enough to Tendrils me for exactly 16 life. Afterward he shows me he had the turn 1 win if I didn't Chalice at 0. At any rate, an inauspicious start to my day. I was ready for the ANT matchup and had confidence I would beat it handily. Force + Chalice is good times against combo or something.

(0-1 matches, 0-2 games)

Round 2 - Jason Farr (black and blue) playing Faerie Stompy (WTF? a mirror match??)

G1: He wins the roll and we each spend our first turn playing land. He plays Tomb, Trinket Mage fetching Sigil of Distinction. I play Tomb, Trinket Mage fetching Needle, Mox, Needle naming Sigil. My Trinket Mage ends up equipped with 2 SoLaS's against his Drake and a Mage equipped with SoFI. I swing with my Mage, he blocks with his and it dies. Next turn he goes to equip SoFI to his Drake when he realizes his Mage had pro-blue and wouldn't have died last turn. We call a judge and he rules that the game state has progressed too far and the Trinket Mage remains in the graveyard. A warning and caution are given out, and soon after another Drake joins the party and I get pwned by big fliers. SoFI>>>>>SoLaS in this matchup.

(SB: -4 Chalice, +3 Jitte, +1 Needle)

G2: Faerie Stompy does what Faerie Stompy does. His life total goes 20, 16, 8, dead. Turn 1 Drake, turn 2 SoFI, turn 3 equip. Not much else to say here.

G3: Turn 1 Trinket Mage for me finds a Needle to hold until he plays equipment. Turn 2 Mulldrifter refills my hand, and from the life totals it looks like he Forces something, but I play another 2 power beater and kill him before he gets anything going. All the damage I took was from my own Tombs. He shows me he was playing a version with fetches and a few duals for Bitterblossom and EE for 2 out of the board. Bitterblossom is interesting, as it effectively Forcefields Goyf every turn and provides a stream of bodies for the control matchup. I'm not sure it's what Faerie Stompy needs, but an interesting experiment to say the least.

(1-1 matches, 2-3 games)

Round 3 - Ashur Terwilleger playing MUC

I had seen him playing next to me earlier, so I know he's playing a creature-based MUC deck (Force Spike, E. Truth, Sower, Kira, and Morphling; no Propaganda, Shackles, FoF or anything). I'm a little worried, because our strength in the MUC matchup is that we only need to resolve one guy and prevent active Shackles or Powder Keg. Sower of Temptation has me nervous too.

G1: I don't have any notes on this matchup, so this is coming all from memory. Game 1 is long and boring as MUC games tend to be. My life total slowly dwindles from Kira beats and Ancient Tomb, while his goes 20, 18, 14, dead. He E. Truths some Swords and guys, but can't resolve a Sower to steal my fliers. I think I got a double SoFI-equipped Drake alongside a Mulldrifter after he's forced to chump on the previous turn. Rawr.

(SB: -1 Sower, +1 Needle)

G2: This goes much the same as game 1, my life total dropping slowly from 2/2s and Tombs. I can't get a guy equipped to swing for a bunch though, and we mutually expend each others' resources with Forces and Powder Kegs. I resolve a Drake, but go to 2 life in the process to his 6. He plays Sower and I let it resolve. On his next turn, he plays Miren, the Moaning Well (tech?) and goes to attack with both guys. I look down at my life total, look at the Pestermite in my hand, and my brain decides to take a 5 minute coffee break. For some reason, I think I can let him attack with both, flash in Pestermite to block Sower, take a hit from Drake, and force him to sac Drake to Miren, leaving no creatures on the board with another in my hand. He enters combat, I pass, he declares attackers, I flash in Pestermite, and my brain comes back. I look at the board and realize I'm dead. That has to rank up with allowing turn 1 Negator to resolve with Force in hand thinking I don't have it as my worst misplay of all time. Go me.

(SB: -2 Sower, +2 Trickbind for Powder Keg)

G3: We start this game with 6 minutes left in the round. I'm playing at a feverish pace, dropping threat after threat. He has counters for Chalice at 2, Drake, and Efreet. Time is called on my turn just as I begin to establish my board. Another Drake shows up, grabs itself a SoLaS, and swings in, putting him to 14. Turn 4 comes, my last turn, with him at 12 life and I look down at my board of Drake and 2 other guys. I think he has one blocker. I draw Sigil for the turn, count mana, and see that I can only deal him 10 damage this turn. If either the SoLaS or the Sigil had been SoFI, I get the extra 2 in and kill him. If I have one more turn, I swing again and kill him (with Force in hand for protection). As it is, I just pass the turn and we draw. Bleh. At 1-1-1 I figure I'm probably out of top 8 contention as there will likely be 4 5-0's who ID the last couple rounds and end up 5-0-2 to get in over me. I'm pissed that I don't walk out of this round with a win, because this was a very winnable match for me. Misplays and slow MUC FTL. Prizes extend to top 16 though, so winning out accomplishes my goal of not walking out empty-handed.

(1-1-1 matches, 3-4 games)

Round 4 - Brandon playing Goyf Sligh

G1: He wins the roll and drops turn 1 Fanatic, while I only muster an Island, go. Turn 2 brings a Lavamancer (I have Force, but let it resolve, figuring he's going to need an all-in turn to kill me with Fireblast before I stablize). My turn 2 Trinket Mage gets Chalice, which I drop at 1 on turn 3. He wastes my Tomb and I stumble on land long enough for him to EOT Lavamancer and EOT Incinerate me twice, putting me in Lavamancer and Fanatic range. I feel like I shouldn't lose a game 1 to Goyf Sligh when no Goyf shows up. Chalice is supposed to pwn.

(SB: +3 Jitte, +2 BEB, +1 EE, -1 Sigil, -3 Sower, -2 something else, maybe SoLaS)

As good as stealing a Goyf with Sower is, Goyf Sligh has way too much removal to deal with it. Planning turns around Sower surviving can only lead to pain.

G2: The first two cards I see in my 7 card hand are Tomb and Chalice. Keep. Turn 1 Chalice at 1 slows him down a ton while a turn 2 Trinket Mage (fetching Chalice) lays the beats for a while. I Force a Goyf, land a Jitte on the Mage, and carry it to the win. That's what's supposed to happen.

G3: I drop either turn 1 Chalice at 1 or Efreet. The other one comes the following turn, and Goyf Sligh does that thing where it draws a bunch of 1CC stuff. He also stumbles on lands, sitting with Waste and Mountain and no source of green for a few turns. A second Efreet comes down soon after. I draw a Jitte and play it with 1 card left in hand and 3 open mana on the board. He Fireblasts Efreet in response to the equip, but I drop the land I'm holding and equip to the other one. Jitte seizes the day.

(2-1-1 matches, 5-5 games)

Part 2 coming in the next post.

VsTheWorld

10-19-2008, 09:52 PM

Report part 2!

Round 5 - Justin Wynn playing Lands.dec

A Treetop Village flips while he's shuffling, so I figure I'm up against Land here. I'm not overly worried about the matchup, since Chalice at 2 shuts off Loam and Wish, Needle stops Maze of Ith (and everything else), and my guys can outrace manlands.

G1: He wins the roll and opens with turn 1 Savannah, Exploration, Nantuko Monastery. I keep a slow hand, knowing I'm not under much pressure, and just drop turn 1 Island. He plays a land and Manabond, which I Force, figuring that might be able to speed him past my slow start. He drops another one, but passes the turn without dumping his hand. Hmm. Guess he's not holding much. I play some beaters, he continues to just draw and pass, and his life total goes 20, 14, 13, 1, dead. Turns out he drew almost every Exploration/Manabond in the deck. No fun for either of us this game.

(SB: -3 Sower, -3 SoLaS, +3 Back to Basics, +2 Crypt, +1 Needle)

G2: At least this time he gets something going. I get turn 1 Efreet and beat for a few turns while I Trinket Mage for Needle, which I play on Mishra's Factory. He Mulches into 1 land, Loams back 3 more, and I follow with Chalice at 2. He has double Barbarian Ring on the board, so he dredges Loam anyway to reach threshold, but doesn't have enough red sources to kill Efreet. Next turn I draw Back to Basics, cast Mulldrifter and draw a Crypt, Crypt him and drop B2B. He dies to fliers the next turn and then tells me he boarded in Ancient Grudge, but not Ray of Revelation, so he was basically dead to the B2B.

(3-1-1 matches, 7-5 games)

3-1-1 after a 1-1-1 start has me in high spirits, but my brother, who started off 3-0, has dropped his last 2, leaving only me in contention for prizes. Guess I have to win out then. I figure as I get into the higher tables, the number of decks playing Counterbalance will increase, meaning the number of decks which die to Chalice will increase. I love that little artifact.

Round 6 - Mike Teachout (Mr. T) playing Ugr Thrash

G1: He opens with fetch -> Volcanic, I open with Efreet off a Tomb and Mox. He Brainstorms and Efreet resolves. That's basically game, as he gets stuck on one land for a few turns while I drop Trinket Mage. Pestermite during his upkeep elicits a Brainstorm in response, which fails to find Daze or land, and he succumbs to the beats on my next turn.

I didn't write down my boarding for this match and I completely forget what I did with it. I think I brought in EE and B2B (questionable in this matchup, but it slows him down enough for me to hopefully establish Chalice control) for some slower stuff.

G2: Turn 1 fetch by him is met with turn 1 Chalice by me. He Dazes, I Force pitching Shoreline Ranger, he Forces back pitching Stifle. Good enough for me. My Lightning Bolt-proof Efreet resolves next turn through his depleted hand and goes all the way, eventually picking up one piece of equipment or another.

(4-1-1 matches, 9-5 games)

Nice! 4-1-1 means at least top 32 and a booster pack for a prize. A win next round gets me top 16 and $50 worth of prize cards. The other 13 pointers at this point are IBA (The Mighty Quinn), quicksilver (RGBSA), and whit3 ghost (some Thresh variant). I'm confident against Thresh, worried about Survival, and completely unsure about Quinn. I've never played the matchup in my life and have no idea what to expect. Of course, pairings come up and I see I'm up against Jack Elgin. Here goes nothing...

Round 7 - Jack Elgin (TheInfamousBearAssassin) playing The Mighty Quinn

G1: I win the roll and get turn 1 Trinket Mage, fetching a Chalice and playing it for 1 on my second turn. SoFI shows up and an equipped Mage gets 1 swing before getting Runed Halo'd. Sea Drake comes down while Jack gets Scrying Sheets going. He has 4 lands in play after Scrying, so I upkeep Pestermite a Plains. He doesn't draw the land for Wrath and I swing for exactly lethal on my turn.

(SB: -3 Sower, +2 Trickbind, +1 Needle)

G2: He opens with turn 1 Sensei's Divining Top, and I just have an Island. Turn 2 I drop Chalice at 1, he responds with Enlightened Tutor. I Force it, he plays another in response to the Chalice. Damn. Tutor finds Aura of Silence, and he draws a 2nd one soon after to make my equipment basically unplayable. I sit there doing nothing relevant, eventually drop a 2nd Chalice at 1 for 6 mana against double Aura. I resolve Mulldrifter and beat for 3 turns while he Tops and Scrys for land. Belcher comes down, burns my Drifter, and Endless Horizons seals it for him.

G3: I realize I'm not going to win this matchup by playing control, so my turn 1 Chalice at 1 is crucial in shutting off Chant and StP. Four mana = Wrath and Humilty, so I have to do everything in my power to kill him as soon as possible. I islandcycle on turn 2 which makes me sad, but drop Sea Drake and SoFI turn 3, equip and swing for 8 on turn 4 and play Trinket Mage fetching Sigil, as this puts me at exactly lethal the next turn. He has the Wrath, I have the Force, and that's game. Winning in these final round situations is always rough, because you know your opponent who fought as hard as he could to get there is walking away emptyhanded at your expense. Props to Mr. Elgin for taking the loss in stride. I hope to play you again someday.

(5-1-1 matches, 11-6 games)

So there you have it. I finish in 9th place, first out of the 16 pointers but kept out of the top 8 by 4 6-1's and 4 5-0-2's. Ninth got me first pick in the non-top 8 prize draft, so I picked myself up an Unlimited Time Vault. Not too shabby I guess. Faerie Stompy was definitely a good metagame choice, since Counterbalance was EVERYWHERE and Landstill seemed to stay home in fear of Ad Nauseam. Chalice continues to be the absolute MVP, winning so many matches practically on its own. I had cut a Sword of Fire and Ice for Sigil in my list, but way too many times over the course of the tournament I'd be sitting there with SoLaS wishing it were the other Sword. I'm going to go to 4/2 SoFI/SoLaS and see if that diminishes the effectiveness of maindeck Sowers at all.

For those questioning the lack of Seat, I never missed it. Trinket Mage for a mana source happens far too rarely to be relevant, and randomly losing a game to Wasteland on your only blue source isn't what this deck can afford, especially with only 17 lands.

As far as Pestermite vs Cloud of Faeries is concerned, there's not even a debate in my mind. Pestermite is far more useful than Cloud ever was. With all the damage this deck does to itself, racing other aggro decks sans equipment can sometimes be a problem. Cloud of Faeries gives you a chump, but Pestermite taps down that Goyf before it attacks and then swings back with the army the following turn. Being able to tap down an opponent's land during his upkeep buys you that crucial turn against control (see my Quinn matchup above), preventing them from stabilizing before they die. Although I've never had the opportunity to pull it off, flashing in Mite to surprise untap a blocker messes up all kinds of combat math and gives you another little edge in the aggro race. Basically, its utility combined with 2 evasive power just helps way more than occasionally accelerating by a turn and doing 5 damage to yourself in the process (double Tomb tap + mana burn.)

Inconsistency issues in the past made me drop this deck for while, but it has huge potential in a Counterbalance meta, and these newer, more streamlined lists combined with Mulldrifter's draw power stop the deck from just losing to itself like I had seen in the past. There's probably more I could say but this has taken way too long already. Much credit to Eldariel for the list. Too bad I couldn't get the Top 8 for the DtB forum.

Rood

10-19-2008, 09:57 PM

You avenged Eldariel for IBA beating him in the Salvation tournament! Lol, good job.

Captain Hammer

10-20-2008, 01:04 AM

Thank you for all the advise guys.

I opted to cut the Jitte and go with a 2/2 split between Cloud of Fairies and Pestermite.

Both are solid threats that are IMO worse in multiples.

The Pestermites are worse in multiples because they lose their surprise factor and sometimes don't have good uses for both.

The Clouds are worse in multiples because you rarely have so many cards you want to accelerate, and they can lead to a multiple 1/1 flyers on your board but with no real threats that apply pressure.

//Land
9 Island
1 Seat of Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

//Blue
4 Force of Will
4 Trinket Mage
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Sea Drake
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Mulldrifter
2 Cloud of Fairies
2 Pestermite

//Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sigil of Distinction

As such, I love playing two of each.

Eldariel

10-20-2008, 06:16 AM

*snip*

Really too bad that you dropped the match vs. ADT (if only that Chalice had been played at 0... If only.) and drew vs. MUC. Both were very winnable. Still, the rest was smooth sailing. Oh, by the way, my experience is that Landstill isn't that bad a match-up and I've been winning more than losing vs. it lately (still not something I actually want to face though).

So FS is really good against the present DtB, which is probably why it has ended up in this forum in the first place (well, that and the fact that it tends to beat randomness really efficiently). I really want to get to try Glen Elendra Archmages though. That card seems just too smexy not to run.

@Hammer: Give it a go. I'd run Pesters in a second now, but feel free to try it out for yourself.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-20-2008, 12:25 PM

I had ten cards to bring in from the sideboard against Faerie Stompy. All of them good. Ten cards. WtF?

I'll go ahead and say it. I was one of the first and most vocal in criticizing this deck when it came out. And I don't actually feel bad about that because it kind of sucked then. But it's evolved into a fucking beast. Everytime I've played against it I've been impressed. I actually amn't sure that this deck isn't just functionally superior to Dreadstill in every way; if I had to play against one blue aggro-control deck with FoW and a permanent that countered low casting cost spells and gigantic fat threats, I'd much rather play against Dreadstill, because all it's cards are much more conditional. I don't know how much of that is because I don't run Fetchlands or Wasteland for Stifle or non-basics to be relevant, but it certainly seems to have a lot more power, and a superabundance of threats where Dreadstill has to wait on it's two card combo to get a highly vulnerable, if massive, threat out.

Kuma

10-20-2008, 12:52 PM

The more I think about Shorline Ranger, the more I realize he should be in the deck instead of an Island. Consider the following opening hands:

Island, Drake, Serendib, SoFI, Trinket, Pestermite, Jitte. This is an automatic mulligan, whether or not the island is a Shoreline.

Island x2, Drake x2, Sower, Jitte, Trinket. This hand might work, but it is slow and should be thrown back. Replacing an Island with Shoreline makes it worse, but it was already unacceptable.

Island, Chrome Mox, Shoreline, SoFI, Drake, Pestermite, FoW. This one's probably a keeper whether or not Shoreline is an Island.

Island, Tomb, Sower, Shoreline, Chalice, Trinket, Serendib. Here's where Shoreline starts to shine. You have the flexibility of cycling him for a land early, or getting mana with Trinket Mage and trying to cast him.

Shoreline is also a much better late game topdeck than an Island. He's also great with SoLS, as you can cycle Shoreline early and get it back later when you can play it. Or, you could cycle it until you have enough mana to play it.

Another thought on the whole Diamond/Chrome debate. What is really important is looking at what happens when you don't have a Mox. If you don't have a Mox, you're much more likely to draw a useful card in the Chrome Mox version. That is the biggest selling point for me.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-20-2008, 04:40 PM

I've played eight games in tournaments against Faerie Stompy in the past few weeks, five of which I lost. Of those, two were entirely due to Pestermite cutting off Wrath mana. That card seems >>>> Cloud of Faeries, which is terrible. Small sample pool, but still.

Fuzzy

10-21-2008, 10:01 AM

I have a question for you, guys:

How good could be Vesuvan Shapeshifter in FS?

Clark Kant

10-21-2008, 11:56 AM

The more I think about Shorline Ranger, the more I realize he should be in the deck instead of an Island. Consider the following opening hand

Shoreline Ranger, Drake, Serendib, SoFI, Trinket, Pestermite, City of Traitors.

That would be a solid and keepable hand if the Shoreline Ranger was an island. But as is, it sucks.

Kuma

10-21-2008, 12:52 PM

Shoreline Ranger, Drake, Serendib, SoFI, Trinket, Pestermite, City of Traitors.

That would be a solid and keepable hand if the Shoreline Ranger was an island. But as is, it sucks.

Yeah, I realized the ramifications of Shoreline in that hand after I posted. Still, that's probably <1% of all possible hands -- I'll get a more exact number when I get home. I guess the questions are, "In what percentage of hands is Shoreline better than an Island?", and "What percentage of the time is Shoreline a better topdeck than an Island?" I'm not sure about the first one, but I think the answer to the second question is "almost always."

Eldariel

10-21-2008, 03:05 PM

Shoreline Ranger, Drake, Serendib, SoFI, Trinket, Pestermite, City of Traitors.

That would be a solid and keepable hand if the Shoreline Ranger was an island. But as is, it sucks.

That particular hand, I'd probably still keep. Get the Island, fetch Mox, you've got 3 turns to draw any land to make it worthwhile. If it didn't have Trinket Mage though, your point stands. However, the likelihood of City+Shoreline hand is quite low - since Tomb+Shoreline, Island, Shoreline, Mox and any hands with more than 2 lands tend to be made better with Shoreline, I'm happy with its inclusion.

I have a question for you, guys:

How good could be Vesuvan Shapeshifter in FS?

It's kind of slow. I wanted to try it, but it doesn't really seem better than any of the present creatures, and paying 5 mana for your own Goyf feels like a ripoff, especially since it's only a 2/2 alone. I like how it becomes awesome when copying big stuff like Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf, Terravore and so on, but unfortunately you're paying a ton for that stuff, and it's still not as good as stealing opponent's bombs. And 5 mana is really a lot in this deck.

Media314r8

10-21-2008, 03:33 PM

@ Shapeshifter:

Duplicant seems like it would be better, as you remove the creature forever, but doesnt pitch to FoW. Sower is better still and often costs less total mana, and pitches to FoW, and beats in the air for two, which is why we play her in place of shapeshifter or duplicant, and even at that, many lists have her in the board or less than a four-of (I only run 3 in the land-heavy diamond version) and IMO she is superior to both shapshifter and duplicant, though all have their pros, Sower is just consistantly better for less mana.

VsTheWorld

10-22-2008, 12:00 PM

I'm going to side in favor of Shoreline Ranger in this debate. The nature of the deck is that sometimes you just get hands with 1 solid threat, a Ranger, a bunch of mana, equipment, and Moxen/Chalices. If that threat gets countered, you're left with Ranger as your only beater and you're at the mercy of your topdecks. At least twice over the course of the Source tournament my initial threat was dealt with and my gameplan turned to "lock out my opponent, drop the 6 mana I have in hand, and cast Ranger". Granted, I topdecked myself out of those situations, but the benefit of that extra tiny bit of threat density in games when you're mana flooded outweighs those rares instances when hands become unkeepable due to Ranger not being an Island. In addition, it's one more card that pitches to Force, one that you typically won't feel bad about pitching.

Kuma

10-22-2008, 01:38 PM

Shoreline Ranger, Drake, Serendib, SoFI, Trinket, Pestermite, City of Traitors.

The odds of getting a seven card hand with City of Traitors as the only land, Shoreline, and five other non-land cards is ~1-1.5%. Getting the eighth card (being on the draw) reduces this to ~ .5%, i.e. drawing an Island or a Mox. This isn't the best way to look at it, though. Given you are on the draw and holding the above hand, the odds are 13/53 ~ 23.5% that you will draw an Island or a Mox. So keeping this hand on the draw isn't likely to work out.

Since you have a Trinket Mage, the odds of having three mana by turn three is significantly higher than 23.5%, but I'd have to calculate the exact odds to determine if the hand is worth keeping. I'd say it probably isn't, since we want to have three permanent mana sources before turn three, and we'd probably have a better chance at that by mulliganing.

Unless anyone can think of some other hands that would be keepable only if Shoreline was an Island, I think running one Shoreline over an Island is the correct call.

Tacosnape

10-22-2008, 02:54 PM

It's worth factoring in that on more than an occasional occasion, despite SOLS and Jitte, life total becomes a significant factor in the game. Islands don't cost you life. Shoreline Ranger, if you've got a Tomb to work with, can cost you 2 life to be used as an Island. Shoreline Ranger also costs you 2 mana to be used as an Island, which can cause a tempo issue if you have a hand where you have just the Tomb/Ranger and have to decide whether to drop a Chalice for 1 or Islandcycle on turn one. Tomb/Island circumvents this dilemma. Also, there may be several circumstances where you topdeck Shoreline and, for tempo reasons, needed him to either be the Island you could drop immediately or a less expensive threat.

I'm not taking a particular side in this issue yet, I'm merely pointing out that to focus specifically on exactly one side of Shoreline Ranger, come out with a mathematical formula supporting it, and draw a certain conclusion based on it is flawed and generally a bad idea. Shoreline has a number of drawbacks. They deserve to all be examined.

Kuma

10-22-2008, 03:14 PM

Well, the odds of having Ancient Tomb + Shoreline as your only mana sources, are the same as with City of Traitors, so we're talking about .5%-1.5% of the time once again. And Tomb would almost always be preferable to City in that situation. I'd keep that hand most every time with a Tomb, but would always throw it back with a City.

I understand that there are mitigating factors that cannot be easily accounted for mathematically, such as the occasional loss of two life or needing Shoreline to be an Island when your Tomb/City gets wasted. However, I think the topdeck is where Shoreline truly shines. You can't tell me the number of games where you're stuck on one mana source, or need to drop two threats in one turn are greater than pretty much every other scenario.

No one's advocating cutting Shoreline for a less expensive threat. That would clearly be a mistake.

You may be right that there are numerous unlikely situations regarding Shoreline that add up to be significant. This is definitely a decision made to improve the long game at the expense of a little tempo.

Nastaboi

10-23-2008, 08:46 AM

Shoreline Ranger is in the deck mainly to be pitched. I gets in table once in a year but goes to RFG zone every second game. The card is awful, but it is necessary to keep blue sources numerous enough while being able to run all those awesome artifacts.

Boogy_Boy

10-23-2008, 10:25 AM

Without reading any of of the 20ish pages of thread, and without playing Faerie Stompy even once... I'm wondering...

?????Armageddon??????

Ez to splash, resets back to a position where chalice is relevant?

Eldariel

10-23-2008, 10:32 AM

First, we don't like splashes 'cause having mono-coloured manabase is a huge advantage stability-wise - something FS doesn't have too much to give up anyways. The only splash I'd really consider is a slight green splash for Tarmogoyf.

Second, you must be confusing Trinisphere and Chalice. Trinisphere becomes worse as opponent gains more mana. Chalice still prevents them from resolving the spells no matter how much mana they have. The very reason the deck plays 4 Chalices and 0 Trinispheres is because Chalice's value isn't dependant on opponent's mana sitiuation, but their mana curve.

Armageddon would be awesome against all the control in the format (duh), but that seems like a poor reason to splash a colour, especially since the best (and most played) removal in the format costs W so Armageddon can't really be used to keep them off that; that's Chalice's job. I may consider Parallax Tide at some point. It looks like it could be efficient. But it also looks incredibly janky and a pure tempo tool as it can't really be used to screw the opponent alone; that's the prime reason B2B is in the present builds in the first place..

Tacosnape

10-23-2008, 02:24 PM

Okay, Glen Elendra Archmage is really, really, really good against control.

It's a little less so against combo, as keeping a blue open to use the Archmage's ability is a pain in the ass when you're trying to race. Keeping the blue open against control is less of a pain, as you just need one threat to go the distance.

It's probably not good enough to displace Sower of Temptation maindeck, but it's definitely worth testing as a control displacer.

socialite

10-23-2008, 03:05 PM

My head hurts. I play in the New England meta primarily (Pretty much the same as what was seen at The Source 5 Year) and I need some help with the sideboard. Any and all suggestions are welcome.

My current main deck. (Yes I am aware it is somewhat dated, if you can put forth some honest and well written criticism as to why I should run Sower in the main I might even consider changing this). Seems as though current opinion suggests removal of the Cloud of Faeries and replacing them with either Sower of Temptation/Pestermite or a combination of both.

L[17]:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Island
C[21]:
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Mulldrifter
* 4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Trinket Mage
2 Pestermite
I[4]:
4 Force of Will
A[17]:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
* 2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sigil of Distinction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

* I starred the controversial items.

SB[15]:
Tormod's Crypt
Engineered Explosives
Pithing Needle
Blue Elemental Blast
Back to Basics
Glen Elendra Archmage
Sower of Temptation
Sword of Light and Shadow
?????

Edit: My initial response to Sower of Temptation was that UU is a kick in the nuts and the U activation cost for Glen Elendra Archmage is equally as painful. I also did not like running Sower main deck as it is relatively useless versus combo something that has always been strong in New England. That being the case perhaps it would be better to switch Jitte to the sideboard as Eldariel has and replace it with Sword of Light and Shadow as for all technical purposes it is a better equipment versus a more diverse field.

Maybe its time we designed an optimal list for a mixed meta of "Decks to Beat and Watch". It would be very helpful for myself and new people whom shouldn't have to slog through all 9000 pages in this thread. It might also help avoid the frequent "What about Trinisphere?" questions.

1 2 3 Go?

Eldariel

10-23-2008, 05:09 PM

I'm fairly confident my present list is fairly optimal for a "usual Legacy meta" (that is, Tarmogoyfs, red decks, control, LD, combo, and everything else) with the Glen Elendra Archmages on the SB (an often-ignored part of the card is that in a deck this fast, it can come down quite fast and pretty much singlehandedly pwn combo in the face - countering two spells through Chant/Duress/whatever=awesome). That said, I'll rewrite the OP at some point.

Captain Hammer

10-23-2008, 10:16 PM

Dr. DOOM

10-24-2008, 02:51 AM

Hey guys, november 16 to 18 there's a games convention in the Netherlands, with two fairly big Legacy tournaments on Friday and Sunday. Sunday will be the Dutch Open Legacy Championships with probably 100+ players in the field from the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium.

I will be playing both tournaments and I hope that I can celebrate the anniversary of me playing Faerie Stompy for a year now with at least one great victory, lol :laugh: Last year at that same convention I picked up my playset of Drakes, I asked a friend who is a trader, and the guy standing next to him had a set for sale, how lucky! But unfortunately it was a year of average results, like 3-4 or 4-3 in the Swiss rounds. Still waiting for that big break...

I never post a decklist before playing a tournament but I can say that I will be trying to incorporate some new cards and ideas that were posted here recently, so I'll post a report afterwards to let you know how this new stuff worked out for me.

Ok, how about a different question. If Shoreline Ranger is indeed fantastic, why only as a 1 of.

Is there any mathematical reason why exactly one Shoreline Ranger is the correct call?

Can we get away with running two?

Just test it and see if it works for you, that's how you figure that out instead of mathematical reasoning. But I would say no, after playing FS for a year now, but that's personal. Faerie Stompy does not have many slots to play around with, the second ranger would simply take the slot of a necessary threat or utility card. If you want a second land search option, play four Trinket Mage and a single seat of the synod in addition to the Ranger I'd say.

These minor tweaks is what makes your FS deck match your playing style, we all know what the good cards are and how you use them is up to you.

Tacosnape

10-24-2008, 04:02 AM

VsTheWorld

10-24-2008, 04:05 AM

Ok, how about a different question. If Shoreline Ranger is indeed fantastic, why only as a 1 of.

Is there any mathematical reason why exactly one Shoreline Ranger is the correct call?

Can we get away with running two?

The thing is, Shoreline Ranger is NOT fantastic. It's a pretty mediocre card that serves both functions (mana source and threat) poorly, but well enough that it lets us almost cheat by running one fewer land and an additional late game threat. With Ranger, 9 Islands and 8 2-mana lands works well enough. Do you really think cutting down to 16 lands, especially with higher costed threats like Mulldrifter and Sower, is the way to go? Ranger acts as a land for me way more often than it does as a creature. I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually cast Ranger in the month since I picked up the deck again. Basically, running the 1 is acceptable because of the flexibility it offers. You never want to see two in a game. Spending a turn islandcycling to hit your land drop is a huge tempo loss.

Rinello

10-24-2008, 12:03 PM

Personally I think that Shoreline Ranger is good, no debate.
BUT just as a 1x, to be pitched on mox or FoW, fix mana sometimes and 10% of times be hardcast (specially when topdecked)

I also personally dislike EE in main, as I consider it a sideboard card, because in main it would be usefull against Tarmo, Confi or CB but we can't afford a 2nd color splash, we are already too unstable so @1 it is not that amazing.

Why not a singleton of a blue istant card like Psionic Blast or (better) Rushing River? It is not Trinketable, but is a tech that can speed our race, control a random problem or PITCHED.

I was thinkin about RR since I don't like Sigil without Cloud of Faeries.. a lot of times I just give my Mage +4/+4 .. Swords are always better, first of all because of protection. Also I usually get Chalice or Mox or Needle with mage,so i very rarely get that Sigil.

just my 2 cent.

Kuma

10-25-2008, 10:14 AM

Yesterday, I played Faerie Stompy, and ran Shoreline over an Island. I drew him four times over the course of the tournament. Twice, I Islandcycled him with no tempo loss, once, I was able to Islandcycle him several times with SoLS, and, once, I got the dreaded City, Shoreline, five non-mana hand. Since I was playing against Belcher, I kept that hand, because it had a Chalice, but normally that would have been a mull. I ended up topdecking a Chrome Mox anyway.

I didn't notice any significant improvement or impairment from running Shoreline, but I like the added flexibility, so I'm going to keep running him for now. I still need more evidence for a final verdict.

JeroenC

10-25-2008, 12:30 PM

I ran him for a while, but I never really liked him. I never really liked drawing him and so I went back to an Island. I guess it's mostly up to personal preference.

Captain Hammer

10-25-2008, 12:47 PM

It also depends on your build.

It seems that most people use him to islandcycle most of the time.

The question is, do you have a better use of that mana.

If you play Chalice and Jitte, that's 6 2cc cards that you might want to play turn one instead.

If you only play Chalice (and run SOLS instead of Jitte), that's instead just 4 so the chance of having it in your opening hand with Shoreline is lower, and Shoreline gives you another target to bring back with SOLS as well.

In short, if you're playing Jitte over SOLS, I don't think Shoreline is worth it.

JeroenC

10-25-2008, 01:02 PM

I do indeed still play Jitte over SOLS because usually, getting one equipped beater through seals the deal for me, I don't think recurring beaters is a necessary. I'm also not too big on Evoking Mulldrifter, which is the only thing I think SOLS would let me do. On the other hand, with Jitte, I can have 1. Better lifegain or 2. more damage than SOLS. I can't have both, unfortunately, but I'm happy this way.

Rinello

10-26-2008, 10:19 AM

Spardantevil

10-26-2008, 02:44 PM

Gush is banned from legacy, and Fact was discussed all through the old Faerie Stompy thread.

I think every FS player should read it just once to see what the deck tested, rejected, kept and left, stuff like that. :smile:

Captain Hammer

10-26-2008, 04:37 PM

And maybe this is the reason why Coguar isn't played in Dragon: we 99% use Jitte MD.. (even if I still think Coguar deserves some testing)

That and the fact that Dragon Stompy doesn't run a FoW equivalent card. You can still pitch it to Chrome Mox, but not to FoW.

Rinello

10-26-2008, 05:42 PM

That and the fact that Dragon Stompy doesn't run a FoW equivalent card. You can still pitch it to Chrome Mox, but not to FoW.

THAT'S what I forgot to type, DAMN!

@ Spartandevil
:smile: I just wanted to discuss some cards.. With a lot of cards discussed, I forgot some.. Sorry!

Dr. DOOM

10-27-2008, 04:22 AM

Dr. DOOM

10-28-2008, 04:12 AM

I, personally, would tell you to run four Pestermites. Pestermite IS SO GOOD. I basically run something very near what Eldariel's running, only with a 4/2 Pestermite/Sower configuration instead of a 3/3.

I noticed that Eldariel's build runs 3 Pestermite, 3 Sower and 4 Mulldrifter. 3 Sower I understand, 4 is definately too many. But Pestermite gives an early beater, and is extremely versatile. So why are there 4 mulldrifters in his build and only 3 Pestermites?

Spardantevil

10-28-2008, 05:55 AM

Pestermite is versatile but weak.
Powerfish is just awesome. He makes you draw more powerfishes. =D

Tacosnape

10-28-2008, 12:14 PM

I'm not arguing against four Mulldrifters. Mulldrifter is fantastic. I'm just arguing -for- four Pestermites.

Sower of Temptation is, beyond an argument, an absolute beast in some matchups. No question. I had doubts about the card until I started testing it and I was like, "Oh."

Pestermite, however, is good in every single matchup in the entire universe. It adapts to what you need it to be. It's a 2/1 flying one-shot Rishadan Port. It's a 2/1 flyer for :u: or :2: if it untaps a land. It's a 2/1 that turns a tapped out board into a pair of blockers. It's a 2/1 that makes Tarmogoyf miss a turn. It's a 2/1 that can equip for free. You're almost never going to be unhappy to have a Pestermite in your hand.

Dr. DOOM

10-29-2008, 04:33 AM

I see. So four Mulldrifter it is. I've been testing a bit with this list and I'm having some doubts:

4 Mulldrifter
3 Pestermite
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
1 Shoreline Ranger
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sigil of Distinction
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Island
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard
3 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

And this is my problem: To make sure Sower is playable wit it's 2uu casting cost and add consistency to the deck, I have included both the Shoreline Ranger and an extra Seat of the Synod. This works out really well for me and enables a quick chalice @2 as well. But it takes one slot that has to come from either Mulldrifter, Pestermite or Sower.

My idea is, if Sower is good in the matchup, I side one in and take out one of the landsearch options or something else, dependant on the opponent playing land destruction or not.

I decided to run 3 Pestermites because I would want something else to play in my first turn (T-Mage, Chalice, Drake, Efreet) and use the ability when it really matters, from 2nd or 3rd turn onwards.

I have ran 3 Sowers once, and I drew them too much in my opening hand without the mana to cast them soon enough. So That's why I run two of them, hoping that the four Mulldrifters and SoFaI can find me one. I did manage to steal a Dreadnought once, *roflol* :laugh:

About the Sigil I can say that it's a great game finisher, just to get those last points of damage through that can save you a turn of attacking. I would take it out if the opponent is running land destruction though.

So, a quick summary: I have one slot for a Pestermite, Seat of the synod, Shoreline Ranger, or Sower of Temptation. Consistency versus threat, what will it be?

blaat

10-31-2008, 02:41 PM

Can anyone tell me if lightning greaves is any good?
I checked the old and new FS thread.
The card was mentioned a couple of times but not really any usefull information.

My meta often has a lot of removal.
It's sometimes very difficult to get some nice creatures sticking on the board before I get equipment down.

Testing reveals that if I play a 2mana land and don't have to use it for chalice, dropping a lightning greaves seems very usefull.
It also let's creatures attack the same turn they come into play which speeds things up.

The only problems I could see is one creature on the board, equipped with greaves.
Then playing sofi/solas which you can't equip because of shroud and no other creature to equip greaves to, to prevent this.

My testing so far with the glen archmage, is that it's awesome if you have a blue mana source available and still can play your threads.
If there's no LD, it's awesome, but I think her place is still in the SB

Dark_Cynic87

10-31-2008, 02:50 PM

So the debate on Sigil of Distinction is...it's good? Or it's being tested?

Spardantevil

10-31-2008, 03:06 PM

The only problems I could see is one creature on the board, equipped with greaves.
Then playing sofi/solas which you can't equip because of shroud and no other creature to equip greaves to, to prevent this.

Thing is, this problem is relevant. Getting locked with an un-equippablle threat sucks. Hardcore. And must happen pretty often, given how the deck plays. Plus it's 2cc, which sucks.

So the debate on Sigil of Distinction is...it's good? Or it's being tested?

As long as my testing goes, it doesn't suck hardcore. It's not better than SoFI n°4. I'm currently tesing it instead of SoLS n°3, don't know yet which one is better. What about other guys?

VsTheWorld

10-31-2008, 03:46 PM

I'm playing a split of 4 SoFI/2 SoLaS/1 Sigil now. I tried 3/3/1 at the Source tournament and found myself wanting SoFI way more often than SoLaS when SoLaS showed up. Sigil has been solid, but nothing spectacular in testing. Definitely worth a spot as a trinket, but I find myself boarding it out often because it's the weakest of the equipment we play, especially if Jitte is coming in postboard.

Rinello

11-01-2008, 07:10 AM

Do you think that Cloud of Faeries is a goner, replaced by Pestermite?
Do you consider it a war where "there can be only one" ?

I honestly don't know yet, since I run 4 cloud/2 pestermite split, to have a faster clock and equip faster.
I run Sower in Side, 2x, but I suspect it is a big mistake..
Opinions?

With all that questions answered I can be satisfied with my list :)

PS:

Taco wrote a guide to how to sideboard with DS.. Why we still don't have one?:smile:

tnx

Dr. DOOM

11-01-2008, 08:28 PM

So the debate on Sigil of Distinction is...it's good? Or it's being tested?

A sigil can squeeze through those points of damage that would normally cost an extra turn of attacking. And it adds another win condition. If you manage to keep just one threat on the board, and the rest you draw is land and one T-Mage, then you can still win.

On the other hand, Sigil sucks if your opponent is running 4 wasteland and it dies easily to EE and Deed.

I still run a single copy maindeck for testing and I will be participating in a tournament on November 8th as a trial for the Dutch champs...

blaat

11-02-2008, 09:04 AM

I still run a single copy maindeck for testing and I will be participating in a tournament on November 8th as a trial for the Dutch champs...

Well, I'm planning to play FS too in this championship.
Let's get FS into that top8! :)
No time for the trial though, even on friday I have to work, so no side-event.

Last year I played a FS shell with stifle/dreadnought and went 5-1, lost to survival and placed 11th.

VsTheWorld

11-02-2008, 02:37 PM

I played the deck to another Top 8 finish at Hadley yesterday. Here's the list:

// Lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Island

// Creatures
1 Shoreline Ranger
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Trinket Mage
4 Sea Drake
3 Sower of Temptation
4 Mulldrifter
3 Pestermite

// Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Pithing Needle
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Sigil of Distinction
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Glen Elendra Archmage

I couldn't find a 6th Sword (of either variety) before the tournament, so I opted to play a Jitte in its stead and replaced one in the board with another Needle, since I'm still terrified of Deed.

Mini report this time:

Round 1 - Ian playing Ugw Landstill w/Goyf and Intuition

G1: I lose the roll and mull to 5. Great way to start the day. I make an admirable attempt at a comeback, resolving a couple beaters, but none of them end up getting a swing in. His life goes to 16 off fetches, while Goyf and Factories eat my face.

G2: I mull to 6, but the deck does what it's supposed to do. Early Drake + equipment, he can't stabilize before Drake kills him.

G3: Finally a good game. We go back and forth, but he has answers for every guy I play, Intuitions for Loam, EE, Ruins, then FoF's the next turn and shows me 5 cards with tons of counters and removal. I scoop it up.

Round 2 - Justin playing Ichorid

G1: I lose the roll and he mulls to 5. I'm applauding my fortune until I have to do likewise and I see he's playing Ichorid. He has a slow start and dredges like crap while I beat with Drake, but I can't find Chalice or Force. He topdecks LED and goes nuts.

G2: My opening 7 has Crypt, EE, 2 Islands, and 3 guys I can't cast. Turn 1 Crypt slows him down, he Therapies me on turn 2, hits my Mulldrifter, and sees I have no mana sources to cast the Trinket Mage and other guys in hand. I rip City of Traitors, cast Mage finding Crypt, and he can't find Needle before he dies.

G3: My opening hand has 2 Crypt, lands, and dumb beaters not named Mulldrifter or Trinket Mage. If he opens with Chalice or Needle, I probably lose. I keep anyway, and he has no turn 1 play. I drop Crypts, he takes damage from his lands, and 2 beaters kill him quickly.

Round 3 - Jesse playing AdN TES

G1: Chalice at 0 slows him down, but he Rite of Flames into Burning Wish, finding Meltdown. This invalidates the other Chalice in my hand, and I can't find Force before he gets enough to Meltdown and IGG-loop it.

G2: Chalice at 0 again and I beat him down to 11 before he casts 1-mana rituals into Ad Nauseam. His deck dislikes this idea though as it gives him Tendrils, Wish, SSG, and other crap that drops him to 2. He is able to Tendrils himself back up to 12, but he can't go off again before Drake kills him.

G3: Easily the most intense game of my day. I see a 7 card hand with Chalice, EE, but no Force or blue source to cast any guys. I debate it heavily, but decide I really need Force and send it back. Six is no better, so I go to a 5 card hand of Crypt, Chalice, Trinket Mage, Force, Pestermite. Defensive hands FTW. He drops a bunch of mana artifacts but doesn't go off turn 1, so I drop the Crypt, Chrome Mox I drew, and Chalice at 0. We play draw-go for a bit, and he decides to go all in on an Infernal Tutor, popping 2 LEDs for red and blue and discarding his Meltdown. I have the Force and he can't recover.

Round 4 - Ben playing Dragon Stompy

G1: I take the beats from a fast hellbent Raiders after Chalice at 0 slows my start. I play dudes and go to 4 before Sower shows up and steals Raiders. I have Sigil and swing him from 12 to 0 in one turn.

G2: He has turn 2 Slogger, I don't have Force, and my hand is full of guys with 2 toughness. I lose.

G3: The highlight of my tournament. He drops Magus, I make 5 land drops of 3 islands, City, and Tomb. Sower arrives to steal his Pit Dragon, and stuff starts getting fun. I have Sigil as my only card in hand, and I topdeck Mox. Play Mox, play Sigil, equip the now hellbent Dragon, give it flying with the two Mountains Magus gave me, and swing for 14. He has nothing to answer it and Faerie Stompy wins with a hellbent Pit Dragon. NOICE!

Round 5 - Jared (Jaynel) playing Solidarity

G1: I got paired down and Jared's a nice guy, so he offers to scoop to me. We play it out anyway. I open with Chalice at 1, he has no bounce, and Efreets lay the beats.

G2: I play Chalice at 1 about 5 times between bounce and counters, he goes off at his leisure and freezes me for a ton.

G3: I have double Efreet to put pressure on him, he digs and digs but can't find a single High Tide. Wipe Away and Cryptic Command buy him all sorts of time, but the tide just doesn't come.

Round 6 - Some guy playing Mono Red Sorrow's Path Control

G1: This one is intense. The pile shuffle starts well, but I get sloppy and one card lands between two piles. Which one does it belong in??? After this brief moment of indecision, I nudge it to the right and continue with the piles. Phew. That one was close.

G2: The epic shuffle continues! After the mildly unsuccessful pile shuffle, I switch to the overhand method. This one goes much more smoothly. Nothing flips over, the sleeves are still nice and cards slide together well. I present, and the impending doom of Sword-wielding Drakes is too much for him to handle. I can sense his fear even as he is still driving down the highway toward the store. He never shows up and I get the match win. Cheap way to make top 8, but I'll take it.

Top 8 - Mike playing Goyf Sligh

G1: This is probably the best matchup I could hope for in the top 8. He leads with Taiga, Figure of Destiny, and I drop the burn-proof Efreet. Turn 2 brings a Fanatic on his side, but I get Jitte and equip it. Uhh, I win? Not quite. I swing and immediately -1/-1 his 1/1 Figure. My next turn, I go to swing again. "So I'm taking 5?" I momentarily forget about the Fanatic on his board and pump Efreet before damage. Predictably, he Bolts and Fanatics Efreet in response. I swear I don't totally suck. This is what not having coffee does to me. I never get another swing in before I die.

G2: I keep a questionable hand with turn 1 non-Efreet guy, turn 2 SoFI and equip. If he has burn in response to the equip, I'm at the mercy of my topdecks. He does indeed have the burn, and I proceed to draw Mox, Island, and 3 pieces of equipment over the next 5 turns while I get completely and utterly annihilated. Go me losing the winnable matchup.

People still underrate this deck like crazy. Drake's price tag makes this deck way underplayed, and I love that I get laughs and looks of surprise when people see this thing top 8. I'm going to continue testing Archmage in the board, since it was never relevant at all yesterday. The maindeck Jitte was great (usually better than SoLaS) every time I drew it though. I expect to be playing this at The Mana Leak Open at the end of this month. Maybe I'll actually get some pre-tournament conclusive testing results this time.

Aleksandr

11-02-2008, 02:59 PM

*report*

G3: The highlight of my tournament. He drops Magus, I make 5 land drops of 3 islands, City, and Tomb. Sower arrives to steal his Pit Dragon, and stuff starts getting fun. I have Sigil as my only card in hand, and I topdeck Mox. Play Mox, play Sigil, equip the now hellbent Dragon, give it flying with the two Mountains Magus gave me, and swing for 14. He has nothing to answer it and Faerie Stompy wins with a hellbent Pit Dragon. NOICE!

*report*

Very nice report, indeed! I like the highlighted part a lot. Unbelievable!

DuxDucis

11-02-2008, 03:37 PM

Well done, and nice report.

I just picked this deck up again after about a year off. I'm still trying to find more Sea Drakes, so Juggernauts are standing in at the moment.

I finished 3rd in an eleven person tournament last week. I beat Deadguy Belcher and Fetchland Tendrils. Only losing to Counter Sliver.

Locking combo decks up with Chalice is fun times :tongue:

Eldariel

11-02-2008, 05:28 PM

Awesome job Top 8ing, Vs. Too bad those punts in the Goyf Sligh MU cost you the match - the match is favourable but not favourable enough to win if you screw up, as Goyf Sligh is a very unforgiving opponent. Still, good show.

Glad you finally had the Force of Will in the combo match. I'm kinda worried about how poorly all those combo matches went though - just simple protection would've won Jesse G3 and the Solidarity seemed to go in a way that would've normally ended up in their loss.

Did you bring Glen Elendra Archmages in against combo? Where did you use it? Seems good against Landstill and both combo-decks you faced (High Tide and TES).

Btw, FS winning with Dragon is just gold. Stealing the classic Dragon Stompy win...it's just priceless.

VsTheWorld

11-02-2008, 07:05 PM

I boarded in Glen Elendra Archmages in every match except Dragon Stompy, but I either never drew it in the matches or was in no position to cast it. The only time it left my hand was being pitched to Force once. There was a lot of Deed (ITF, Landstill, Survival) in the room yesterday and it probably would have been a lot more relevant in those slower control matchups. As far as combo, I always find myself having a tougher time in the match than I feel I should. Maybe it's just because mentally I tend to focus on the times when the deck just craps on itself instead of when it works how it's supposed to. I just feel like I always open great aggro hands with no disruption against combo and end up having to mull into disruption at the expense of trying to win the game. I think from now on I'm going to make note of my exact hands in every match so I can go back later and reevaluate mulligan decisions. Obviously with a deck like this correct mulliganing is a hugely important skill, and I believe it's still the weakest aspect of my game. Despite my seemingly endless play mistakes, I feel like I've lost more games to poor mulligan decisions than I have to poor play.

On the combo matchup: Against TES, turn 1 Chalice at 0 or Chalice at 1 is obviously the best common play you can have. If you're on the play and you can drop Chalice at either 0 or 1 turn 1, which one do you favor? As you can see, Chalice at 0 has been my choice, but I'm not entirely convinced it's the correct play. If your opening hand has a turn 2 Chalice at 2 and you don't expect Duress, do you give them the one turn and then drop it at 2? My game 3 mull to 5 from a playable 7 (Chalice AND EE??) to a horribly slow and defensive 5 that needs both good topdecks and an absence of protection from the opponent to be good showed a hugely overblown fear of a turn 1 win. I definitely need to test this matchup more, as I feel it's going to be increasingly common as more people start messing with it.

Eldariel

11-02-2008, 07:32 PM

I usually go for Chalice at 1 first, although if I feel they're about to go off (there's a lot in opponent's body language and behaviour that tends to indicate this - turn 2 or 3 is a good bet though) and can't afford it, or am playing against a deck very heavy on mana artifacts, I'll go for Chalice at 0 (usually when I Trinket for Chalice, I cast it at 0 simply because I can't afford to wait).

Chalice at 1 is preferrable nowadays though since most combo-decks rely on deck manipulation like Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Ponder, Mystical Tutor and company to get to get their stuff together. They also rely on 1-drops for defense, be it Orim's Chant, Thoughtseize, Duress, Xantid Swarm or any number of other things. Further, one-drops usually hits about as much acceleration as 0, depending on the exact build. TES, for example, has trouble generating red with Chalice at 1 in play, making their SB much weaker. Also, Chalice at 1 hits some hate removal like Shattering Spree (requires them to get RR without Rites, RRR to play through Force), Meltdown (they need two mana to play it through Chalice, again being vulnerable to Force and generally costing them at least one temporary source), Repeal and company.

Overall, Chalice at 1 is stronger against everything but SI and decent there too (if you know you're up against SI, you obviously play Chalice at 0 to get their 0-mana rituals and 1-mana rituals due to the lack of sacrificables).

Oh yeah, don't forget to bring Back to Basics in against combo. Their manabase is where they're at their most vulnerable.

Dr. DOOM

11-03-2008, 03:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. DOOM
I still run a single copy maindeck for testing and I will be participating in a tournament on November 8th as a trial for the Dutch champs...

Well, I'm planning to play FS too in this championship.
Let's get FS into that top8! :)
No time for the trial though, even on friday I have to work, so no side-event.

Last year I played a FS shell with stifle/dreadnought and went 5-1, lost to survival and placed 11th.

I already thought you were Dutch because of the nickname :-)

Yeah, it would be great if we would be in top 8, FS is sooo underrated in the Netherlands. Last year I collected all the cards for FS, but I forgot to bring a decklist to build it from. So I had some weird build with 5 islands, 3 stifle and one dreadnought in it. I went 3-4, so not bad with that manabase. I hope I will do better this time.

If you don't have time for the trial tournament on friday 14th you can go to Rotterdam on Saturday the 8th for testing. I'm lucky because I'm going to Zwolle with a friend who is a M:tG trader, so I'll be there on all three days and play the Legacy tournaments on Friday and Sunday.:smile:

Anyway, good luck with the preparations and the Championships and I hope to meet you there. Most regulars on tournaments know I'm always playing FS so it won't be hard to find me.

Dr. DOOM

11-03-2008, 04:42 AM

... Faerie Stompy wins with a hellbent Pit Dragon. NOICE!...

People still underrate this deck like crazy. Drake's price tag makes this deck way underplayed, and I love that I get laughs and looks of surprise when people see this thing top 8...

Congratulations! Great way to display the freaky ways that can lead FS to victory. And yeah, FS is underrated indeed. Also, the deck is worth it's weight in gold for not having to play mirror matches :laugh:

Eldariel

11-03-2008, 09:39 AM

I side out creatures starting from Sower (and usually ending there - Efreet is really the next), and non-SoFI equipment. Also Needle if it has no implications in the match. What I want to bring in are:
Glen Elendra Archmages
Back to Basics (it's the key play after they destroy your Chalice, or you counter their attempt - either puts it away)
Engineered Explosives (blows up their manafax, kills Goblin-tokens, is overall handy)
Misdirections if I have any (hits Thoughtseize, Duress, etc.)
BEBs if against heavily Red deck

Illissius

11-03-2008, 09:51 AM

or obv. Thoughtseize them.
Note that if you Misdirect a Thoughtseize, they will still get to choose the card, except from their own hand.

Eldariel

11-03-2008, 10:35 AM

So you dont even keep Jitte as an answer to both Tendrils and tokens? I am just asking, I know that it is somehow slow and interferes with CotV@2.

I don't think Jitte has a big enough impact to keep in over other hatecards. I don't recall ever winning a game with Jitte through lifegain or token killing - it's mostly there for getting 4 more damage per turn anyways.

Do you play Back to Basics preemptively, or do you wait until they destroy/bounce Chalices? First method is good that it stops Brainstorms, Ponders, the second method is better because after they destroy chalice, they dont have removal for B2B (and it also does not hinder your manabase).

I'll play it whenever there's an opening. Basically, there's no hard rule on it, but whenever their key colours are tapped low/out, I'll drop it.

On side note - you cannot misdirect Duress, however I get your point that it can counter one Tendrils, misdirect Ech. Truth from CotV to their LED.. or obv. Thoughtseize them.

Pardon me, I meant Thoughtseize, Chant, etc. I don't know what possessed me to type "Duress" there...maybe duress?

EDIT: Oh, you dont maindeck Jitte, and therefore you dont keep it in.. So it is not worth bringing from SB?

I don't think it has that big of an impact. I could see using some in some versions of the match, but meh. Same with Sower - some builds want to use Tomb of Urami or Dark Confidants or such, and Jitte/Sower would be gold there, but in most common scenarios, they're the least useful cards.

Dr. DOOM

11-05-2008, 05:30 AM

I started testing on MWS today, I really had a blast. About 5 times I played Drake on turn one after which the opponent says "hey, return that land to your hand" :laugh:

About the combo matchup and BtB: I tried that once, but the combo player did not tap his land until he could go off....

Eldariel

11-05-2008, 10:02 AM

About the combo matchup and BtB: I tried that once, but the combo player did not tap his land until he could go off....

The important thing to realize is that B2B isn't your principal disruption weapon, but a complementary disruption weapon. Once they're forced to deal with other disruption (such as Chalices, Forces and Glen Elendra Archmages), you can drop B2B to seal it. Also, Pestermite is really handy with B2B.

Dr. DOOM

11-06-2008, 06:02 AM

Also, Pestermite is really handy with B2B.

I haven't thought of that one, thanks!

Barsoom

11-06-2008, 11:33 AM

Drake's price tag makes this deck way underplayed
Really True; i have all cards for both this deck and Dragon Stompy, and i'm playing DS on my tourneys; the only reason is that i cannot buy Drakes cause they are so expensive... and without Drakes, Faerie Stompy is not Faerie Stompy.

socialite

11-06-2008, 07:15 PM

Really True; i have all cards for both this deck and Dragon Stompy, and i'm playing DS on my tourneys; the only reason is that i cannot buy Drakes cause they are so expensive... and without Drakes, Faerie Stompy is not Faerie Stompy.

I understand that not everyone has a lot of money, I am a college student and I still have trouble buying this argument as of late.

Sea Drake for the most part is only used in this deck and this deck for the most part is rather underplayed. I realize that it is a very good Portal 2 Rare and that the sellers tend to raise the price but they really have dropped quite a bit for the past few months. You can pick up a Near Mint/Mint English Sea Drake for many times between 30-35USD. Yes that is quite a bit for a piece of cardboard but still compared to a lot of the staples in this format not really that absurd.

Not trying to single you out I have just noticed many people complaining about the price of Sea Drakes lately. I personally worked some extra weekends at my part-time job and picked up a NM/M set of Japanese Sea Drakes for 170 USD.

Just keep an eye on Ebay.

DuxDucis

11-06-2008, 07:36 PM

Juggernaut might be a little less explosive than a Sea Drake, but it still smashes face in the red zone pretty well.

I have a blast playing the deck without Sea Drakes. If the only thing that is holding you back from playing it is the lack of Drakes, you're missing out.

Arsenal

11-07-2008, 12:20 AM

@ Ertai

Uh, $30-35 per card is tops in Legacy, with only blue dual lands going for more (35-40 each). I don't what else you're comparing Sea Drakes' cost to that's played in Legacy.

GenghisTom

11-07-2008, 01:17 AM

I don't think he was comparing them to other cards in legacy, rather, their value in absolute terms. If Sea Drake had been printed in a mainstream set it's value would be lower. While the card is still good, its relatively expensive value is a result of the low availability of the set it was printed in, not its playability. Faerie Stompy is a strong deck that gains an advantage using flyers and counters, so I don't think Jugernought is a prime choice. Though not a bad substitute.

-Gen

Barsoom

11-07-2008, 04:15 AM

So, what should be the best substitute for 4 Drakes on Faerie Stompy?
Let's say if i want to build the deck "on a budget"; we all know that Drake is the best one, but the second one?

Rinello

11-07-2008, 05:33 AM

I guess Cloud Spirit...

but FoWs cost 70 € for the set so i guess you will remove them too in a budged version..

Barsoom

11-07-2008, 05:51 AM

I said i have all cards for Faerie Stompy (except Drakes ofc), 4 FoW included; Fow is a budget card compared to Drakes...
Cloud Spirit you say? i'm curious for what Eldariel himself thinks about a budget replacement for Drakes.

coma

11-07-2008, 06:46 AM

Normally sea drake's set on e-bay is about 100 euro .
I know only european prices , but tarmo is about 32/35 euro each one and many utility or mana acceleration have an high prices , so I think drake's cost is not ludicrous for legacy .

@ samsunait : if you desire to play fs , only solution is you make an extra hours of some job , because the true is : There isn't a drake sostitute .
sorry but this is the raw true .:smile:

Now I try a new build more adapt to my control meta . I try some new cards main and side , but I wait some positive response to write it .

while I greet you .:laugh:

Eldariel

11-07-2008, 09:41 AM

Now, while I dislike quoting myself, typing this again would make even less sense. So:

You can replace Sea Drake, but the deck will be worse without it. You could try:
-Pestermite
-Weatherseed Faeries
-Juggernaut
-Phyrexian Warbeast
-Cloud Spirit
etc.

Basically, efficient 3-drops work, but since Sea Drake is the most efficient, the deck will suffer. Still, the combination of equipment, beaters, Chalices, Forces and speed will allow you to win regardless of Drakes - their size is helpful, but since it's only a 4-of in a deck without tutors, it's not in any way the only reason the deck wins.

Arsenal

11-07-2008, 11:48 AM

Because I cannot afford Drakes, I'm running Cloud Spirit in it's place. I'm pretty happy with the deck, even without Drakes. I don't think I'll ever invest in a playset of Drakes; too narrow.

Dr. DOOM

11-08-2008, 08:26 PM

Hi, I played a tournament today with 20 participants and placed 6th. So this is my first top 8 with Faerie Stompy! Well, sort of. It was 5 Rounds of Swiss with top 4 playoffs, which I didn't make. I went 3-1-1. But still, 6th place is a personal record for me with this deck.

This is my build:

Jetfightertestpilot

Kerosine
9 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox

Rockets
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sigil of Distinction

Ground Control
4 Chalice of the void
1 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will

Fighter Jets
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Mulldrifter
4 Pestermite
2 Sower of Temptation

Ground personnel
4 Trinket Mage

Adaptive Combat System
1 Sower of Temptation
3 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Back to Basics
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

Here's what happened:

Match one: Gijs playing Painter combo + Dreadnought

G1: He played an early Grindstone and I decided not to waste my FoW on it, hoping for a T-mage and Pithing Needle. After a few turns he plays a dreadnought, but I have only three islands in play and a Sower in Hand. I take no risk and Fow the Nought. Next thing I draw is a chrome mox. Tough luck. I am lucky that nothing special happens, now without counter backup, until I draw a Serendib Efreet that sticks and gets equipped with SoFaI. In the turn of equipping the Efreet I also play T-mage to find me my Sigil of Distinction. When he's at 9, the Efreet kicks face with Sword and Sigil for a whopping 12 damage! I noticed he plays a truckload of nonbasic land so:
Out: 2 Mulldrifter, 1 Pestermite, 2 SoLaS
In: 1 Pithing needle, 3 Back to Basics, 1 Sower of Temptation

G2 : I had to mulligan to 6 and my hand is slow but has two 2 BtB and FoW in it so I keep, hoping to screw him over bigtime. 2nd turn he plays painter and I have no counterstuff. 3rd turn he plays Standstill, I respond with FoW. I play a Drake. Since he has one island and one nonbasic in turn 4 I drop the BtB, bringing him down to one land. He brainstorms and finds Mishra's Factory. The Drake starts beating and he draws no answers to that.

1-0

Match two: Robert with Eva Green

I saw him play a couple of games before the start of the tournament so I knew what he was playing and he’s also a player who does not make any mistakes. These two things had me walk to the table trembling with fear... And rightly so.

G1: I have to Mulligan to 5 on the play, so he has a Hymn for free already. I get a 2nd turn Drake out and beat him down to 16. He destroys the drake, plays hymn, thoughtseize, and finishes me off with Shade and Tombstalker. Off to round 2

Out: 2 Mulldrifter, 1 Sigil of Distinction, 1 SoFaI, 1 T-Mage
In: 3 Glen Elendra Archmage, 1 Jitte, 1 Sower

G2: First turn brings T-mage fetching Chalice. He tries to steal the chalice with Hymn but I have FoW backup to prevent that. Turn two I play chalice at two and beat him to eleven in the coming turns with the Mage. Eventually I get counter backup from the archmage to secure the chalice. He gets a Tombstalker in play, but a pestermite taps it first, then the mite and mage both get equipped with SoFaI and enough damage gets through for the kill.
G3: He starts with Hymn, I foW because I once again MUST resolve that chalice @2 to survive. I use all my resources (mox removing really really good cards like FoW or Sea Drake!) to get Chalice in play while a Hippie beats me down to 13. I get to play a Serendib Efreet, which makes the Hippie stop attacking. That gives me time to topdeck a Sower, stealing hippie. I am one turn short of killing him when he topdecks Tombstalker and right after that a Putrefy to destroy my Sower.

1-1

Match 3: Thomas with Elfball
Eh, this is , I believe, a deck for the Extended format, but it worked quite well in the Legacy format too today. Unfortunately for him, 90% of the elves are 1-drops to make the Elfball combo work….
G1: I mulligan to 6 on the draw. He plays turn two Glimpse of Nature (meaning I do combo and win) and I thank WotC once again for printing FoW. He starts beating with Nettle Sentinels and I cast Pestermites in his turn to keep the Sentinels tapped. Then, a Sea Drake with SoFaI cometh down and spits fire.

Out: -2 SoLaS, -1 Mulldrifter In: 1 Engineered explosives, 1 Pithing needle, 1 Jitte

G2: I open with first turn drake, he doesn’t play removal anyway so let’s go for the kill. I have FoW backup again and it saves me from the dreaded Glimpse again. I set a chalice at 1 and a turn later equip SoFaI again.

2-1

Match 4: Omiros with BWG Disruption/Control

For myself he most ridiculous match ever experienced in a tournament so far, check this out…

G1 I have to mulligan to four on the draw, my hand still sucks but I decide to keep. He plays thougthseize and rapes my hand. Everything I play is removed and soon I get kicked in the teeth by mr. Tombstalker.

G2 I play t2 Drake, with FoW backup yet again. Which I need. I draw Drake, Efreet, Efreet, Drake, and he removes them all with StP and Pernicious Deed. He draws a lot of removal because he has a Dark Confident in play. Then he reveals a Tombstalker in his upkeep and has to pay 8 life. Ouch, dead.

G3 The game is almost the same as G2. This time he is using Confidant with Divining top for safety. He makes a small mistake by replacing the Divining top with the top card of library, then after drawing it again he does not play it. I don’t know why or how: He reveals a Tombstalker in his upkeep and has to pay 8 life. Ouch, dead.

3-1

Match 5: Mike with Rogue Faeries.

G1: He attacks a couple of times with a mutavault and I get to kick him with a Trinket Mage equipped with SoFaI. That Trinket Mage Fetched a Chalice @2, and that is the reason why I have not seen any of his spells. So I don’t know how to use my sideboard. I do know he plays mono blue and the right setting for chalice...

In: 3 Glen Elendra Archmage, 1 Sower of Temptation Out: 1 Chalice, 2 Mulldrifter, 1 Pestermite

G2: I play turn one Drake, he counters with FoW and I counter his FoW with my FoW. The drake goes nearly all the way as suddenly he starts doing nasty things with Mistbind Cliques championing eachother, tapping my land. He also plays a lot of bounce spells. I should have kept that chalice at two…. I managed to get him down to 5, but a Mistbind Clique with Jitte kicks me from 10 to 0 thanks to his Pestermite tapping my Drake.
Now that I know what to do I’m sure I can handle this deck, but we have 2 minutes left so it’s a draw.

3-1-1

About the deck I can say it performed great, I did not miss the Shoreline Ranger at all. Pestermite did so much it is truly unbelievable. Also the sigil of distinction proved itself capable of stealing a turn: not the first turn, but the last one.

My sideboard was not very useful except:

Glen Elendra Archmage was extremely useful. This guy can hold off the removal targeted at your chalice so you can secure your lock. Blue Mages want to counter it and if they can't they have a problem.

BtB was also great because there were some 3 color decks and lots of nonbasics played.

Captain Hammer

11-08-2008, 11:37 PM

Eldariel is a big fan of cutting one Island for a Shoreline Ranger if you're playing SOLS. Any reason you didn't opt to go that route. Did you try it out and decide against it?

I'm just curious. I don't know if Shoreline is worth it or not and would like to hear more people's take on the card.

Otherwise, the build looks 100% perfect (except maybe the sideboard).

Then he reveals a Tombstalker in his upkeep and has to pay 8 life. Ouch, dead.

G3 The game is almost the same as G2. This time he is using Confidant with Divining top for safety. He makes a small mistake by replacing the Divining top with the top card of library, then after drawing it again he does not play it. I don’t know why or how: He reveals a Tombstalker in his upkeep and has to pay 8 life. Ouch, dead.

ROFLMAO

He probably could've had you otherwise. Sui black is this deck's worst matchup I think.

That guy spamming the sui black threads saying they ought to play Dark Confidants alongside Tombstalker makes me :laugh: :laugh: now.

Jak

11-08-2008, 11:39 PM

Do people usually side out Mulldrifters against heavy discard decks? Good report and I really like the list. I am a fan of the 4 Pestermites.

Captain Hammer

11-08-2008, 11:57 PM

I had two questions about the sideboard...

Why Jitte as a 1 of. As a 1 of, it seems random and inconsistent. How often do you bring it in?

Is 3 Glen Alara too many and were you siding them in too often?

It seemed like you pretty much always sided them in and they never did much. I thought they were mostly there against control decks. Against fast aggressive decks, spending 6 mana and several turns to counter two spells seems like a lot.

Could something like Trinisphere (against combo) or Winter Orb against control belong instead?

Jak

11-09-2008, 01:09 AM

Yeah I was thinking the same thing about additional combo hate. Instead of Trinisphere, would something like Thorn of Amethyst, since it doesn't hurt Force of Will as much.

Eldariel

11-09-2008, 04:45 AM

Dr. DOOM

11-09-2008, 04:59 AM

@ Captain Hammer: I wanted to see Pestermite instead of Shoreline. I want threats, no lame-ass stuff only for pitching. I do want to fetch a land if I need it, so I included a Seat of the Synod instead of island #10 because I run 4 T-mage anyway.

The guy who killed himself with Stalker played some sort of disruption/control with deed, stp, thoughtseize and EE. But yeah, not a very great gameplan, lol!

The Glen Elendra Archmage has won me a game against Eva Green because it is a threat that can be equipped. They do much by just being there! It's a counterspell on a stick that counters TWICE for one U per counter, go figure. That means he needs three putrefy or Snuff out to kill chalice.

The last game I almost won the second one, also thanks to archmage. He was holding back for at least 5 turns because I had counters on the table.
The Dutch metagame is packed with removal, control and disruption, so Archmage really helps out.

Jitte as one-of: Goblins are not very popular here. Jitte is legendary. I need Chalice @2 in almost every matchup in this meta. Only when opponent plays LD or needles I take out Sigil or SoFaI for Jitte.

@Jak: Mulldrifter is too slow when your opponenet plays 4 hymn, 4 sinkhole and 4 wasteland.

4 Pestermites kick ass.

Trinisphere, Winter orb, Thorn of Amethyst: Just don't. Really.

Dr. DOOM

11-09-2008, 07:13 AM

I think you could've won the Eva Green match with tighter play. Chalice at 2 doesn't seem like the optimal gameplan over just "play a dude and beat" if they have a normalish list. Tarmogoyf is quite slow, Hymn does nothing bit into the game anyways, Sinkhole isn't much of a threat to a hand with double Mox leaving basically Shade, which is very all-innish and Needleable.

Also, nice against that Bg. Teaches him to play Bob in midrange decks. Can't trust on that though - the match seemed a tad difficult otherwise. Then again, much of that probably was him having an active Confi. Good job overall - Top 8 finish is nothing to sneer at.

Thanks! Well, the Eva Green player (Robert) is a regular visitor of PTQ's PT's and GP's. I am your average recreational dude, and he is clearly the better player. I tried the beatdown gameplan once against another Eva Green player, but that did not work at all at that moment. Both Eva Green and Faerie Stompy can choose to play control or beatdown, and with chalice at 2 you take away a large part of their control cards. Maybe next time I replace 3 chalices with Archmage, so I can play 26 threats post board, lol!

Captain Hammer

11-09-2008, 10:19 AM

@ Captain Hammer: I wanted to see Pestermite instead of Shoreline. I want threats, no lame-ass stuff only for pitching. I do want to fetch a land if I need it, so I included a Seat of the Synod instead of island #10 because I run 4 T-mage anyway.

Shoreline Ranger wouldn't taken the spot of a Pestermite. It would have taken the spot of an island. I too am iffy on the card on the card. I do agree with on playing a singleton Seat of Synod though.

If your build plays Jitte over SOLS, then absolutely Shoreline Ranger absolutely doesn't make sense and doesn't belong. But if you play SOLS over Jitte, then thats 1/3rd less likelihood that you would have anything to do with a first turn Ancient Tomb (or Mox + Island) than landcycle a Shoreline. And Shoreline makes it more likely that you'll have a creature to bring back with SOLS.

As for older sideboard cards like Winter Orb and Weatherseed Fairies, I think they're still solid sideboard option.

Orb gives you a huge trump card over both landstill and MUC/MBC/MWC.

Weatherseed Fairies is still the best card you could hope for against both goblins and dragon stompy imo.

You're right to say that Glen is generally better in most scenarios where Misdirection would be sided in though.

Dr. DOOM

11-09-2008, 04:08 PM

Shoreline Ranger wouldn't taken the spot of a Pestermite. It would have taken the spot of an island. I too am iffy on the card. I do agree with on playing a singleton Seat of Synod though.

If your build plays Jitte over SOLS, then absolutely Shoreline Ranger absolutely doesn't make sense and doesn't belong. But if you play SOLS over Jitte, then thats 1/3rd less likelihood that you would have anything to do with a first turn Ancient Tomb (or Mox + Island) than landcycle a Shoreline. And Shoreline makes it more likely that you'll have a creature to bring back with SOLS.

Yes, if you compare my build with Eldariel's, then I cut a Sower of Temptation for a Pestermite and a Shoreline Ranger for a Seat of the Synod.

But in my book, it would be Pester or Ranger.

I consider taking out an Island and replace it with Ranger, but then I'd still keep the seat of the Synod to have two fetch options. The reason is Archmage and Sower. On the other hand, most of my opponents know what to do with thoughtseize, especially with tomb and ranger in hand as only mana stuff on the draw. I will test that this Friday 14th at a trial tournament for the Dutch Championships.

To help you understand some of my choices, the metagame looks a bit like this in the Netherlands at bigger events:

Goblins: Sometimes, not really big.
GBW Goyf + Stalker + lots of removal and discard archetype: Lots of this
Dragon Stompy: Not much but it gets far.
RGB aggro loam: Not much, but in Belgium a lot more.
CountertopGoyf stuff: More than I like
Ichorid: Always a few
Dreadnought + Stifle archetype: Upcoming, in many different shapes
Combo: Upcoming, in many different shapes
Rogue decks: More than you might expect
Eva Green: Sometimes
MUC: Sometimes
Oldschool stuff like solidarity, SalGame and Madness sometimes on the really big events.

coma

11-10-2008, 08:43 AM

Dr. DOOM

11-10-2008, 12:54 PM

I think meta becoming much control, not only my meta , and in this contest best equippe is SoLS , it give us protection of 2 removal's colors using now , and a continue recursion of much creature and its skills .

This week-end I had a good response with a top 8 in local 43 person tournament , but I want to have other results before talk about a particulare build that I play ... with 4 SoSL main equippe.

Hey man, congratulazioni on the Top 8 position! You know, after playing last saturday, I needed 4 SoLaS in two matches really really bad. I was thinking the same thing as you. I now have 2 SoLaS in the sideboard, and Friday 14th I will be playing a trial tournament for the Dutch Open Legacy Champs. If it turns out to be one big removal frenzy, then I'm also moving them to the main for the Champs.

coma

11-11-2008, 06:43 AM

@dr doom : congratulations you too . Unfortunately in this period I haven't possibility to play some big tournament to really test , but I 'm trustful about direction of new build .

I' m some time a too obstinate man , but I change idea , I think there are some cards (one is SoLS) can make a step of quality to the deck in this new meta.
I have to be objective , and thank to yamaelle to SoLS idea .Also this time he has a precursor choices .

bye :smile:

JeroenC

11-11-2008, 07:15 AM

After hopping over to the combo side for a while (DDFT), I'm going to jump back into Faerie Stompy (mainly because it looks more suitable for my meta at the moment).

The decklist I would probably run:
Mana:
10 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
Beats:
4 Mulldrifter
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Sea Drake
4 Trinket Mage
3 Pestermite
3 Sower of Temptation
Other
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte/Sword of Fire and Ice(not sure on this one)
1 Sigil of Distinction
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard
3 Back to Basics
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Control Magic
1 Sower of Temptation
3 Glen Elendra Archmage

Dr. DOOM

11-11-2008, 07:36 AM

Well, 6 Sword Fire/Ice will get you disqualified, so Jitte is the better choice for you :confused: But I would prefer SoLaS over Jitte if that's what you mean:laugh:, especially with archmage in the board. I'm running into lots of black removal and tombstalkers lately. What is the meta like in Belgium at the moment? Lots of Loam?

And why the control magic in the board?

JeroenC

11-11-2008, 08:26 AM

1. Yes. Yes I meant SoLaS indeed. But usually, I've always preferred Jitte to SoLaS.

2. The meta is a good bit of Ad Nauseam, some Landstill, Dreadstill and also some SwanThresh. Loam gets a fair share too. I'm making an educated guess here, from a tournament with 20 persons.

3. Control Magic because I like the idea of having 6 Control Magic effects postboard. Though maybe I should drop them for one Archmage and one Back to Basics?

Dr. DOOM

11-11-2008, 03:17 PM

1. Yes. Yes I meant SoLaS indeed. But usually, I've always preferred Jitte to SoLaS.

Definately SoLaS. Trinket Mage, Archmage, Sower, Mulldrifter, with SoLaS you get to play them twice.

Jak

11-11-2008, 05:37 PM

I played a few games against Survival, about five, and this deck totally shit the bed. I would come out strong and get a Chalice at 1 out, Sea Drake with a Sword, and still lose because I drew shit. They Shriekmaw my Drake and I'm screwed because I can't draw a single creature. Other games might have been due to mulligan decisions, but still, not drawing a blue source for six turns or not getting another land for eight turns was annoying. I know Stompy decks aren't the most consistent but this was annoying. Also, drawing multiple hands of 3 land + Mox, force, and 2 Pestermite sucks.

I am just ranting because I was so annoyed. I know it was probably bad luck because I have never drawn so much shit before with this deck or Dragon Stompy.

Arsenal

11-11-2008, 05:59 PM

Most FS decks run 22-24 creatures (as do Dragon Stompy decks). I don't see how you can't draw a creature. Maybe crappy MWS shuffler?

Eldariel

11-11-2008, 05:59 PM

Meh, against Survival you really want SoLS anyways. That's one of the reasons I play 3/3 split presently - pro-black and pro-white are just too important (the prime reason I keep winning vs. UWb Landstill, for example, is pro-white that slamdances Humility in the face). I'd also want a 4th SoLS on the SB. Against Rock, Survival and company, it's just really, really good. Of course, drawing a bunch of lands off the top is probably going to cause you to lose anyways.

JeroenC

11-11-2008, 06:03 PM

Zinch

11-11-2008, 06:03 PM

I don't see how pro-white can protect you against humility... maybe against StP, but against humility is the same SoLS than SoFI

Jak

11-11-2008, 06:04 PM

It was in real life. Yeah I run the 3/3 split just for that, but I drew SoFI. The list I used:

4 Tomb
4 City
9 Island
1 Ranger
4 Mox

4 Force
4 Chalice
6 Swords (3/3 split)
1 Sigil of Distinction
1 Pithing Needle

4 Sea Drake
4 Sernedib Efreet
4 Trinket Mage
4 Pestermite
4 Mulldrifter
2 Sower

Pretty basic. I am probably just having a bad day :(.

Eldariel

11-11-2008, 06:05 PM

What? I don't understand how Pro-White would trump Humility, as Humility doesn't target. Equipment is on its own better than Humility, as you still get the boost, but I don't see what Pro-White has to do with this.

It trumps Humility by leaving you with a 3/3 Pro-White Pro-Black creatures on the table against their Factories, StPs and white 1/1s.

JeroenC

11-11-2008, 06:07 PM

Eldariel

11-11-2008, 07:33 PM

Oh. Though, in that case, SoFaI is better cause it lets you kill any creature if they don't block (if they do, you just kill the creature). And Jitte just kills any creature.
Though, of course, they don't offer Pro-White so no StP-protection (which should/could be solved with a Chalice).

The key is that pro-white allows you to swing through Decree tokens, race them and ignores StP. It only leaves them with Factories as relevant cards (which you can juts Needle and so on). Jitte and SoFI require you to plow through. SoLS just pulls you past...and turns practically all their answers off.

3duece

11-11-2008, 11:18 PM

Hey guys, my name's Danny and I'm trying to get into playing faerie stompy. I've put together an intitial list that seems decent to me but I'm hoping you can give me some criticism, specifically regarding threat choices, trinket mage targets and sideboard options. I want the sideboard to be able to handle storm combo, dredge and heavy control like all the four color landstill and ITF builds running around.

4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
1 seat of the synod
9 island
4 chrome mox

4 chalice of the void
4 force of will
4 sword of fire and ice
3 sword of light and shadow
1 sigil of distinction

4 sea drake
4 serendib efreet
4 trinket mage
4 cloud of faeries
4 mulldrifter
4 pestermite
2 sower of temptation

4 back to basics
4 arcane laboratory/ethersworn canonist
3/4 tormod's crypt
2 sower of temptation
2/3 pithing needle

I'm iffy on that eighth equipment slot. I like the idea of running eight equipment, including the fetchable (but inferior) sigil, but I see alot of people running a single engineered explosives. This doesn't make sense to me since this is a one color deck and I can't think of any 1cc permanents I would care about. Also, maybe the sigil should be a pithing needle, I don't know. Can you guys give me some help on this slot, the sideboard and the build in general?

Dr. DOOM

11-12-2008, 02:57 AM

@Jak: Survival is always a hard matchup because there's so many different builds, but needle on survival and chalice at 2 should do it. If you play chalice at 1 make sure you have FoW backup against SotF or start digging for it with drifters, even evoked.

All decks have risks of being mana screwed/flooded. Especially 43 lands.dec :laugh: Shit happens.

@3duece: Better to move that Sigil to the board and run a needle maindeck if your metagame is combo. Can you say charbelcher? :wink: Laboratory sucks. If you play a creature then the opponent can do nasty things in your turn without you being able to FoW. That does not have to happen but if it does it can cost you a gameloss. Canonist is white and you can't trust it's ability, don't even think about it.

Try Glen Elendra Archmage. Against combo play chalice at 1 and then play archmage, you can exchange them with Sower postboard. When they play belcher, pay attention to chalice, then chalice at one is not always the best, it depends on the situation. You can do it if you have counter backup for Belcher or after playing needle.

And run one engineered explosives in the board against tokens from Empty the warrens and Bridge from below. You can fetch it with Trinket Mage.

Against Dredge you have evoked drifters, Explosives, chalice at 1 against cabal therapy and crypt.

You mentioned Explosives for 1cc creatures, but keep in mind you can also cast it at 0 against tokens, morph, ornithopters, manlands and so on.

Against Heavy control use archmage and if they play 3 Engineered Explosives and in 3 color decks and Pernicious Deeds don't hesitate to board out some chalice, one or two. Especially on the draw. Board in: Archmage Needle and Back to basics.

I see that your build is same as mine, I want to let you know that I'm currently testing sower/drifter in a 3/3 split, and maybe replace one island with Shoreline Ranger, although that is a bit risky if your metagame is crazy about land destruction. Just test it thoroughly and see if it works for your playing style.

Captain Hammer

11-12-2008, 03:57 PM

3duece, you're playing a 64 card deck. Please cut the 4 Cloud of Fairies and go back down to 60.

And yes I would play a single Pithing Needle maindeck.

But I would cut a Swords to make room for it rather than cut the Sigil.

The pithing needle is awesome, not just againt charbelcher, but against controllish decks that aren't crippled by Chalice at 1 to shut down Factories, Deeds, Survivals and such. And Sigil is great against those same deck.

Sigil is an all around very solid equipment, and being able to fetch it even under multiple Chalices is a godsend. I've won many games off a topdecked Sigil that I might have otherwise lost.

Dr. DOOM

11-12-2008, 05:09 PM

3duece, you're playing a 64 card deck. Please cut the 4 Cloud of Fairies and go back down to 60.

Ok, that's one tiny difference with my build then:laugh:

3duece

11-13-2008, 10:51 AM

Ha, small moment of retardation on my part. So, cut the cloud of faeries, cut a sword for sigil. I haven't tested sigil yet, but it seems weak. I know its fetchable which is nice, I'll have to try it out. So the list would go something like this:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Seat of the Synod
9 Island
4 Chrome Mox

3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sigil of Distinction
1 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Trinket Mage
4 Pestermite
4 Mulldrifter
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Back to Basics
4 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sower of Temptation

Captain Hammer

11-13-2008, 10:58 AM

3duece

11-13-2008, 11:22 AM

That list looks close to perfect.

You should be able to get away with cutting any two cards from your sideboard to make room for either 2 Glen Alara or 2 Misdirection. The trick is to figure out what could be cut.

I guess the only two unresolved issues with the maindeck are...

4 SoFI/2 SoLS vs 3 SOFI/3SoLS?

Cut an island for a Shoreline Ranger or no?

I think these two could use a bit more debate.

I think I'll keep the swords 3/3 for now, but you know looking at glen elendra archmage, I think I might nix the sowers altogether and go with her as a 2 main/2 board split. Her ability rocks and makes sword of light and shadow even better than recycling evoked mulldrifters, plus she makes game 1 against combo a little more tolerable.

Dr. DOOM

11-13-2008, 11:48 AM

mix the sowers altogether and go with her as a 2 main/2 board split. Her ability rocks and makes sword of light and shadow even better than recycling evoked mulldrifters, plus she makes game 1 against combo a little more tolerable.

You can cut a crypt, hydroblast and BtB for 3 glen elendra archmage. You may also want an extra needle in the board instead of Explosives. You don't need 4 BtB because you use it to kick 'em when they're down. Don't cast BtB first turn because they start fetching basics then.

Keep in mind that glen elendra archmage counters only non creature spells, for which you already have your chalices. I have won many games and matches against combo before glen elendra archmage was printed. The combo player is not expecting chalice in the first game anyway, so post board the glen elendra archmage is more useful.

Sower is better main, because most creatures currently played are completely off the scale, power-wise. I've seen a deck top 8 with Show and tell+Darksteel colossus, there's dreadnought, goyf, tombstalker, terravore, crusher and so on.

Arsenal

11-13-2008, 04:08 PM

How integral is maindeck Tormod's Crypt? I understand it's there as a maindeck solution against GY based decks, and to a lesser degree, your opponent's Goyfs, but is it a 100% non-negotiable piece? Same goes for Needle.

Dr. DOOM

11-13-2008, 05:17 PM

How integral is maindeck Tormod's Crypt?

It isn't. Only against Loam and Ichorid decks. Your opponents' Goyf may grow as big as possible and then you steal it with Sower. :laugh:

Spardantevil

11-17-2008, 04:13 AM

Hey guys !

I won a 16 player tournament last week end, beating BWG rock, solidarity and a deck I didn't even see out of 2 games, and IDing with Aluren (friggin bad MU btw). Not going to report it though, as I ended all my games in 10-20 minutes per round. I'm kind of disappointed since it was a "test tournament" for some little twists in my list, which I coulnd't obviously test effectively since I won too quickly. More details after the next big tournament, so that I don't get scouted over here too soon =)

By the way, I almost won my slot to the Coupe de France Legacy (tr: Legacy French Championship) with this victory (placing 8/10th place over 64). Gonna bring FS to the next level there :smile:

Dr. DOOM

11-17-2008, 04:32 AM

Congratulations! You did better than me :smile: I placed 31st in the Dutch Open Legacy Championships last Sunday with 5-3. There were over 100 players, so still not bad. Friday the 14th there was a try out tournament with 10 players and two dropped with 0-2 so I did make top 8 then ROFLOL:laugh: :laugh:

My matchups were Stax, GBRW Survival, UGR Thresh, a rogue Merfolk deck, DreadStill, a rogue Burn/Sligh deck, Dragon Stompy and surprise, Dragon Stompy again. With all respect to the Dragon Stompy players, but that matchup was really one big joke. I will write a report, because I played 4 SoLaS main and a Divining Top in the board and that has won me a couple games and improved a lot of matchups.

The guy that goes by the name "Blaat" on this forum was also there with his FS deck but he went 0-2-1-drop, at least that's what I heard. Too bad.

coma

11-17-2008, 08:06 AM

@ all : if it's possible , it's more useful , instead of only result , write after used build , feeling about the deck ... if in match-loses we need to something , if the deck soffer some particulare actual strategy , if some new card give us more power , etc etc..
Your personal thoughts .

Thank and congrats to all:smile:

3duece

11-17-2008, 10:37 AM

Are you guys siding tormod's crypt or relic of prognitius?

Eldariel

11-17-2008, 10:48 AM

Crypt is more applicable. You often want Chalice at 1 against decks where you'd bring in Relic anyways (it's handy vs. Ichorid, Threshold and reanimator/breakfast/whatever randomness - Aggro Loam is the exception, but it's a great match-up anyways), which hinders using Relic - often you'll want both, at least to some degree. Of course, Crypt shouldn't be brought in at all vs. Thresh, so I suppose Relic warrants some testing. I'm iffy about it though.

Dr. DOOM

11-17-2008, 04:04 PM

Here goes, Dutch Open Legacy Championships, 141 players, 5-3 score, 31st place...

MAINDECK
8 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sigil of Distinction
4 Chalice of the void
1 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
3 Mulldrifter
4 Pestermite
3 Sower of Temptation
4 Trinket Mage
1 Shoreline Ranger

SIDEBOARD
2 Misdirection
3 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Back to Basics
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining top

Match 1 Sebastiaan with Armageddon Stax
He hurts himself a lot with a tomb playing two chalices, smokestack, ghostly prison and a trinisphere while I go ROFLMAOL and attack three times with a trinket mage. He plays Armageddon, I have to sack all other permanents to smokestack @2. I decide to play nothing at all for a few turns. When he clears his own smokestack and Trinisphere, I drop a Sea Drake with mox and city. He plays wasteland, but I have a mox in play and land in hand so attack for the last 4 remaining points through his prison.

Out: 4 chalice. In: 3 archmage and 1 top.

Game 2 he gets a quick smokestack out and try to race but it’s useless when he gets Elspeth in play. Archmage really stretches the game here but he was too strong.

Game 3 I play T1 Drake with 2 FoW in hand. I have 3 permanents and you play Stax *evil grin* Smokestack meets FoW and the drake goes all the way without playing anything else.

Match 2 Brenda with GBWR Survival
I open with chalice 1, turn 2 T-mage, turn 3 chalice 2. She plays deed for 0 and wipes the board. In comes Goyf and plowshares and I’m dead. I didn’t know it was Survival but she tells me during sideboarding, thanks a lot!

In: Needle, top, archmage x2 BtB x3 Out: 1 chalice, 2 mulldrifter, 1 serendib, 1 Mite, 1 Sigil

Game 2 I get thoughtseized and fetch a divining top after that with a trinket mage. I play sea drake, and I have 2 fow in hand. I use the divining top to fetch blue cards from the top of my deck so I can play both FoW without having to pitch one to the other. That means I had to pitch one Sea Drake but there was one in play and one more to draw. I countered a plowshares and a survival. When she’s tapped out I play Back to basics. I attack with Sea Drake + SoFaI and she has a birds of paradise but she chooses not to block. I also convinced a Goyf to join the blue team with a Sower equipped with SoLaS

Game 3 She wisely fetches basics. I needle the Survival, play chalice 1 against plowshares afterwards and again she does not block with the birdie. After blowing everything up with a Sea Drake and winning the game I explain that it would be better to block with the bird. Saves 6 damage and a card.

Match 4 Jacob playing UGR Thresh
Too much happened here to write down, I don’t quite remember and I was too focused to make notes. Basically I lost because I did not play around Daze, but the game was a really close call. I won the first game by stealing a goyf and equipping a sower but I really don’t know the rest.

Match 5 Jurjen playing Merfolk, rogue build I think
His advantage was that I did not know the matchup and it is mono blue. First game he wins with huge Wake Thrashers, playing around chalice at 1.

Game 2 I win with drake and Glen Elendra archmage. It was really close because I boarded out Pithing needle and he had Vials maindeck. I didn’t know because of chalice previous game.

Game 3 He wins with Islandwalk and counterbackup. He can counter more than the number of threats I have available. I played needle and chalice at 1 afterwards but he bounces the needle and uses vial then. Oops…

Match 5 Sedram (something like that) playing Burn (rogue build)
He opens with figure of destiny and I play needle on figure on my first turn. He plays Slith Firewalker, I play Pestermite to tap the firewalker. I play another Pestermite after that and block both creatures, sending his and mine to the graveyard. Mites are useless without equipment anyway in this matchup. I lose because I only draw ancient tombs and I had to use them too much.

Out: 3 Sower, 1 Mulldrifter, 1 Force of Will, 1 sols, 1 sigil In: 2 Misdirection, 3 Archmage, 2 sofi

Game 2 I don’t really remember but I simply have chalice at 1, archmage with sword of fire and ice and he can’t stop me. It’s really that simple against burn. I’m pissed off for losing game 1 because I think I’m the better player here and he plays so slow I suspect he’s stalling. Later turns out he really wasn’t stalling so if you read this apologies dude!

Game 3 Is the same.

Match 6 *I forgot the name* playing Dreadstill
Game 1 There is a chance of winning in this matchup but he counters some stuff and plays dreadnought when I have no counter backup. He managed to make me break a couple of standstills too.

In: 1 Explosives, 1 Divining top, Out: 1 Sigil and 1 Sols.

Game 2 He counters my chalice and plays Dreadnought again a couple of turns later. He attacks once and I’m down to 5 life. I have Sensei’s Top in play, activate, find Explosives, swap the Top for Explosives, Tap ancient tomb (3 life left) play EE for 1, and blow up using city for mana. Then I play Serendib Efreet and kill myself in two turns because I have a hangover from yesterday, a headache, and had no lunch yet. I just couldn’t think normally anymore.

Match 7: *I forgot the name* playing Dragon Stompy
Thanks to short game against Dreadstill, I had time for a second aspirine, lunch, and a liter of water. I feel sort of reborn and ready to rumble.

I may start and play island go. He plays Chrome mox, tomb, Chalice. I play Island go because I don’t want to reveil the matchup, hoping he will keep casting stupid stuff just like the Stax player from match one. He plays Blood Moon, another two life wasted. Meh. I don’t care, play Seat of Synod (Great Furnace??)and Trinket mage fetch chrome mox go. He plays a ritual, then Pit Dragon, probably because he wanted to play around Daze (I guess, not sure). I play Sower of Temptation and a turn later play two sea drakes just for fun. Oh and the Pit Dragon got +1+0 from the Seat of the Furnace off course.

Out: 3 chalice, 1 Solas, 1 Sigil, 1 Mulldrifter. In: 1 Top, 3 archmage, 2 sofai

He starts with first turn Slogger, I have FoW. I get a Glen Elendra Archmage out as first creature, he casts Pyrokinesis when I’m tapped out. So I have a 1/1 archmage. He plays Pit Dragon. I play SoFaI but can’t equip, so he attacks with dragon for 8 damage and plays another pit dragon. I play another SoFaI, a city, and equip the mage. He attacks with two dragons. One dragon dies to the pro-red archmage, the other takes me down to three. I topdeck a Pestermite and attack him for 5 with archmage and draw a Sea Drake from the sword. He does draw-go, no attack with dragon. He knows there’s something about to happen because I’m at 3 life and wide open for attackers so I must have a trick. EOT I cast Pestermite, tap dragon. In my turn I equip Pestermite, attack, deal 4 damage to dragon, he’s down to 8 and scoops after his draw phase.

Match 8: Arjen playing Dragon Stompy
I was all fired up about the 2-0 last match, and my hangover was gone. Someone told me there was another DS player with a Liliana Vess playmat. So I arrive at the table and I see a Liliana Playmat. Cool! Make my day!
Game 1 I don’t really know, he also was playing ritual into dragon, I stole the dragon with sower, he plays another dragon, we traded dragons then sower becomes equipped with sofai. Something like that.

Out: 3 chalice, 1 Solas, 1 Sigil, 1 Mulldrifter. In: 1 Top, 3 archmage, 2 sofai

Game 2 He starts with Powder Keg, I FoW. He plays magus of the moon, I have nothing to cast except sower., but it wins so many games in this matchup with only FoW and Sower, it is all you need. I wait for a bigger beast to steal hoping he finds no Slogger. He plays another magus. Who cares, lets change the damage balance and steal a magus. I was hoping for a trade off with the magus to get my city of traitors back and keep a flyer on the board. He wipes the board with pyroclasm. I draw no creatures, same for him. I play Sofai, turn later Solas, still no creatures and he plays hardcast simian spirit guide. I draw serendib efreet, and equip sofai. He gets a pit dragon out. A turn later I equip with solas, attack, deal two damage to the monkey, and return Sower to hand and borrow the dragon.

coma

11-18-2008, 05:40 AM

@ dr doom : thanks for your good report and good result .:smile:

Since 20 day I play my new build . I play only 2 local tournament :
40 person - top8 - 11-8-08
36 person - top8 - 11-15-08

When I lose I have a big bad luck

Now I write it and if it gives you some question , I 'm happy to answer you.

9 island 1 sinodo 4 tomb 4 city 3 mox

4 drake 4 efreet 4 trinket 4 spellstutter sprite 3 drifter 3 sower 1 shoreline

4 fow 4 cotv

4 SoLS 3 jitte 1 needle

SB: 1 needle 2 crypt 1 e.e. 4 weatherseed f. 1 jitte 1 sower 3 glen 2 btb

After some time I will write my feelings and motivations of my choices

thanks and bye

EDIT:

I think to change my build when I understand this control meta is too hard for old fs build .
With more control decks , more removals , I need to have more creatures and for this reason :

-shoreline : a creature was used also like mana source , first time instead of 1 island , but I feel unsettled manabase , so I change with 1 mox (without tfk mox are really dead cards ) and I 'm joyful .
-SoLS : in this period is best equippe , because all used removals are or black or white , moreover it is better to salvage the race and give us winning condition on late game
-jitte : I prefere it to SoFI for its speed and power to beat all aggro deck (goblin first of all) . Moreover I dislike idea to play only with swords , fs becomes too slow because too mana intensive .
With this 2 equippe you can recuperate incredible races.
-drifter : it is link to SoLS . I prefere 3x because it's only a linked card for strategy of the deck (but I understand also 4x) , and because I want to play with sower 3x.
-sower is a bomb 3x for our deck it's a duty.
-spellstutter sprite : I don't like pestermite , so I think to this creature that :
1 astonish our oppo
2 it's a significant counter (always also creature)
3 give speed to the deck (with jitte)

It's skill to counter give us an important backing when we haven't cotv on play , countering stp , top , all drop 1 ... and E.E. to defend our cotv on board .

So I win many game thanks to this unexpected sprite . I haven't many result to support this newborn build , but I have some good feelings.

Thanks and bye

blaat

11-19-2008, 02:14 PM

The guy that goes by the name "Blaat" on this forum was also there with his FS deck but he went 0-2-1-drop, at least that's what I heard. Too bad.

Yeah, went 1-1-2 and dropped.
I made too many stupid mistakes, prolly because I didn't sleep the night before.
Had a party I couldn't say no too.

I also played that Geddon Stax dude, funny play with all those chalices/trinis on his side :P .
Could't get anything more than a draw out of it though.
Wasteland / armageddon hurts this deck hard.
And yes, I did tmage into needle on wasteland and fow'd armageddon, but the taxes from prisons just made it very difficult.

But at least I got my shiny Arabian Nights Serendib Efreets now because of the event.
Next time I will do better.

Wargoos

11-19-2008, 02:39 PM

Swing4Five

11-19-2008, 03:51 PM

Wargoos

11-19-2008, 04:29 PM

Neat - exactly what i wanted to know.
kkthxbye

Jak

11-19-2008, 08:15 PM

You have a 50 page thread here telling you all that, don't make someone else do the work for you. Read the first and last handfull of pages at least, then come back with any specific questions you have.

I hate when people say stuff like this.

EaD, just wait for someone else to respond and answer your questions. Someone that knows the deck a little better than me :)

Media314r8

11-19-2008, 10:09 PM

Hey guys,
i luckily managed to get 3 drakes recently and I'm toying with the idea of building the whole thing together.
Do you have some beginner's advices?
What should i consider in the different MU's?
How consinstent is this deck?

Thx so far.
EaD

Beginner's advice: Play needle, relic, and sigil MD as trinket targets. It will ensure your mage is never a dead draw, and will give you cards that can be boarded out eaisily. (in addition, if you don't know the right CMC to set chalice at versus certain decks, you can just fetch sigil, and go with the 'slap this huge stick on my mage/flyer and beats til' U dead' stratedgy, or the 'fetch relic and make your goyf a 0/1')

Consistancy: If you want a more consistant build, play more lands and/or muldrifter, as both will slightly lower the 'explosiveness' of the deck, but will greatly reduce the need to mulligan, and chosing which hands to mull/which to keep is arguably the most important part of playing the deck- minimizing the times you have to make such a decision should keep you from muling into oblivion from lack of experience. I would personally suggest the diamond mox list, but you can read the 4 pages worth of argueing for chrom/diamond around pg 43.

Boarding options: iif you need to add cards, take out MD sigils, relics, and mulldrifters first, as they are the less revelant cards in the main IMO (obv dont take out mulls or relic if you're playing against ichorid)

Basic play: try to drop a chalice at 1 if you're on the draw, (and assuming your opponent is playing colors with removal, or CMC 1 cards- 99% of the field) and a turn 1 flying threat if you're on the play- the reason being if you're on the draw, your opponent is more likely to daze/have the mana for removal of your (possibly ONLY) threat, so on the draw it's better to nueter cantrips/removal spells while at the same time playing around daze. (if they're playing islands) There are allways exceptions, as you'll learn as you play the deck more. G2 versus combo, you need to have a chalice, active force, or turn 1 t mage-> chalice at 0, else you should mull.

/obvious statements

Dr. DOOM

11-20-2008, 03:32 AM

Hey guys,
i luckily managed to get 3 drakes recently and I'm toying with the idea of building the whole thing together.
Do you have some beginner's advices?
What should i consider in the different MU's?
How consinstent is this deck?

Thx so far.
EaD

Have a look at the decklists of frequently played decks for chalice settings. Also don't give up after playing a few times, becoming a good FS player may take a lot of practice. It took me one year before my first top 8... Also read some tournament reports to find out how to win in certain matchups.

Consistency is hard to answer. Every deck is mana screwed sometimes. I won a game against combo more than once with one City of Traitors and two chalices in my opening hand. The rest was all creatures.

If you have mox+2 mana land and you want to open with chalice @1, don't play the mox right away unless you have to play around Daze. Maybe next turn you will draw a better target to imprint.

This deck is hard to play because everything you do depends on the matchup, especially mulligans and pitching cards. For example if you have FoW, Sea Drake and Sower of Temptation in hand, and the opponent plays dreadnought, the best play is to steal the dreadnought and keep the drake to pitch to FoW so you can protect Sower. Stuff like that is really important to do it right.

Dr. DOOM

11-20-2008, 03:41 AM

Yeah, went 1-1-2 and dropped.
I made too many stupid mistakes, prolly because I didn't sleep the night before.
Had a party I couldn't say no too.

I also played that Geddon Stax dude, funny play with all those chalices/trinis on his side :P .
Could't get anything more than a draw out of it though.
Wasteland / armageddon hurts this deck hard.
And yes, I did tmage into needle on wasteland and fow'd armageddon, but the taxes from prisons just made it very difficult.

But at least I got my shiny Arabian Nights Serendib Efreets now because of the event.
Next time I will do better.

Same here, I had a huge hangover :laugh: Poor GeddonStax guy, getting paired against probably the only two Faerie Stompy decks in a row in a 141 player tournament ROFLOL :laugh:

Against GeddonStax I just keep 3 mana on the table and After Armageddon is played I drop mox+tomb+fat beast and then kill.

coma

11-20-2008, 08:00 AM

Sorry , but I add some feelings , with edit on previous page .
Some thoughts on my new build .

Because yesterday I have no time .

thanks:smile:

DuxDucis

11-20-2008, 08:44 AM

coma,

I like the changes from the old lists that have cleared out the 2cc spot. Putting the Jitte to the sideboard really opens up setting Chalice for 2.

I'd much rather have Chalice at two then play Spellsputter Sprite or Jitte.

Having a lot of stuff that casts for 3 is a definite benefit for the deck.

coma

11-20-2008, 09:11 AM

I understand your thought , it's right .

Normally when we need to put cotv @2 it's for opponent mana curve fix on two , it means opponent's deck have mains and a great number of spells with cc 2 , so we lose some cards and opponent lose the game .

Or if I put cotv @1 and then cotv @2 , normally it's gg. ... or I wrong my strategy because I don't understand opponent's deck.

2 reasons:

1-These new cards unfortunately have higher mana cost , so slower . I want to reduce cc for no key-card of the deck .
We are slower and so more vulnerable to any mana denial strategy.

2-I haven't ever perfect develop to the mana , so have some less mana expansive spell is not a terrible idea .

This is my thought result by personal experience .

whatever thank you very much

Arsenal

11-25-2008, 10:28 AM

Played a few games versus Deadguy Ale... omfg that was a massacre. What exactly are you supposed to do against massive discard and ld in game 1?

Eldariel

11-25-2008, 10:35 AM

Played a few games versus Deadguy Ale... omfg that was a massacre. What exactly are you supposed to do against massive discard and ld in game 1?

Drop a fast dude. Really, I've never had trouble with Deadguy. They have huge trouble dealing with ANY creatures. Of course, having a bit landheavy hand doesn't hurt either. Laying Chalice at 2 is awesome if you happen to get the chance, although 1 on the play is just fine too. But yea, my experience is that it's a great match-up and unless they draw nuts, they just lose. Losing Jitte and Misdirection of course hurts the MU notably though - that is where Misdirection shines THE most, hitting Thoughtseize, Hymn, Sinkhole, Vindicate and their removal-spells.

But yea, try to get a quick threat or two. They'll feel pretty dumb killing your lands while you're killing their face (with their kind assistance from Confidants, Thoughtseizes, etc. - that said, kill Confidants if possible; if not, race). If they MD Swords, you'll want Chalice at 1. Oh yeah, and if you end up with a Needle in opener, Needle Shade. Takes one of their primary wincons out of the game. Oh yeah, and only use Force if you have to. Chrome Mox is your best friend here as it's immune to LD - I'd often actually fetch Chrome Mox with Trinket Mage.

Arsenal

11-25-2008, 10:39 AM

Maybe they just had the nuts, but all I saw was Vindicate, Edicts, and Smothers on my creatures, then Wastelands, Sinkholes, and sometimes Vindicates on my lands, then when I was manascrewed and creatureless, I was Hymned, Thoughtseized, and Verdicted until empty. It was sucky to say the least.

EDIT: I may have been playing against an unconventional Deadguy build, but he was maindecking lots of creature removal (I saw Smother, Edict, and Vindicate), lots of LD (I saw Sinkhole, Vindicate, and RAIN OF TEARS), lots of hand disruption (I saw Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Verdict), then he finished me off with a Tombstalker (and he said he played Exalted Angel too, but I never saw her).

Barsoom

11-25-2008, 11:49 AM

This seems more a Pox Bw deck imho.

Arsenal

11-25-2008, 11:51 AM

Yeah, but he didn't run Crucible, Pox, Smallpox, Innocent Blood, Nether Spirit, Epochasite(sp?), Urborg, etc. He just ran LOTS of removal, hand disruption, land destruction, and then Tombstalker + Exalted to finish. I had loads of trouble game 1.

Eldariel

11-25-2008, 12:36 PM

Arsenal

11-25-2008, 12:42 PM

Ah, Bw Control. It seems like the discard- and LD-portitions should detract his control allowing you to eventually stick a critter. Chalice at 2 becomes a priority, and you'll want Glen Elendra Archmages in, for some equipment. The plan is still the same, but I'd attack his creatures more, since that's his sparse resource. Try to identify what he's lacking each game and hit that if possible. Also, play with empty hand and Chrome Moxes given the chance - gives him loads of dead cards.

I didn't see his decklist or anything, but I'd have to guess he was running 12 discard (Thoughtseize, Hymn, Verdict), 12 creature removal (Edict, Smother, StP [and Vindicate too, but that was primarily used for my lands and other permanents that I was able to cast]), 12 land destruction spells (Sinkhole, RAIN OF TEARS [who plays this shit?], Vindicate, Wasteland), some acceleration (Dark Ritual), some draw (I saw Night Whispers, don't know how many he played), then Tombstalker for the win (and he said he ran Exalted as another kill).

Game 1, it was really too much for me to handle. If I cast a creature, it was usually off of a City/Tomb, then I saw my creature EOT killed, then my land either Wastelanded or Sinkholed. FS is already mana-lite, so him constantly keeping me off mana really hurt; after a while, I just drew non-land cards, then he ripped apart my hand, then finished me off w/ Tombstalker. I really couldn't do anything.

tivadar

11-25-2008, 01:08 PM

Is pestermite now generally preferred over cloud of faeries out of curiosity? Is the reasoning behind that to get rid of the 2-drop? I would think cloud would make an excellent second turn play playing into chalice for 2.

Eldariel

11-25-2008, 01:10 PM

Well, the good news is that he should practically never get what he wants. It's not a Deadguy build though, but simple BW Control (Deadguy's characteristic cards being Dark Confidant, Dark Ritual, Hypno, etc.). But yea, turn 1 Trinket Mage for Chrome Mox seems like a strong play. And Forcing any of his creatures should buy you more than enough time to win. And of course, getting more critters post-board seems golden.

3duece

11-25-2008, 09:01 PM

Has anyone tried four maindeck sowers of temptation yet? Its a house against so many decks- 11UU for two creatures and the removal of one of the opponent's is outrageously good. I cut the mulldrifters to two to make room, I think it's the weakest overall creature in the deck. The card draw is nice, but Im not trying to see the lategame with this deck. Here's my current list, feel free to rip me a new one :smile: .

4 sea drake
4 serendib efreet
4 trinket mage
4 pestermite
4 sower of temptation
2 mulldrifter

4 force of will
4 chalice of the void
3 sword of fire and ice
3 sword of light and shadow
1 sigil of distinction
1 pithing needle

4 chrome mox
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
1 seat of the synod
9 island

4 tormod's crypt
2 pithing needle
2 engineered explosives
3 back to basics
4 arcane laboratory (still not sure about this one, but it seems to be the balls in the mouth of ad nauseum)

Tacosnape

11-27-2008, 01:28 PM

Has anyone tried four maindeck sowers of temptation yet? Its a house against so many decks- 11UU for two creatures and the removal of one of the opponent's is outrageously good.

Let's start with this. While there's not a whole lot insanely wrong with your idea and I've wanted to topdeck a Sower more times than I could count running only 2? Mulldrifter is NOT the right cut. Mulldrifter wins games. Period.

Your maindeck list is identical to mine only I have the 4 Drifters and 2 Sowers. One pestermite might be the right cut for a third Sower. Beyond that I think you start having to look into dropping a land or an equipment.

Sower completely blows in a few matchups, which is why we don't typically run four of them. I think you can get away with three if you want the sheer power. If you anticipate wanting four, though, I'd consider packing one or two in your sideboard.

4 arcane laboratory (still not sure about this one, but it seems to be the balls in the mouth of ad nauseum)

This is a neat idea. Don't know about four of them (I think I'd run 3), but I totally forgot this card existed. Eldariel? Thoughts?

Is pestermite now generally preferred over cloud of faeries out of curiosity? Is the reasoning behind that to get rid of the 2-drop? I would think cloud would make an excellent second turn play playing into chalice for 2.

That's one of the biggest reasons. The other? Pestermite's just twice as fast on a kill. If you don't have equipment on the board, 1/1 doesn't take you very far. Plus, whereas CoF has sneakier mana fixing tricks and can cycle, Pestermite has all the tap-untap trickery, either for mana acceleration or for fogging a Goyf for one turn (Can be all the difference in the race), or acting like a Rishadan Port for a turn, or creating two surprise blockers (Flash him, untap your other huge guy), and so forth.

Wargoos

11-27-2008, 01:42 PM

This is a neat idea. Don't know about four of them (I think I'd run 3), but I totally forgot this card existed. Eldariel? Thoughts?

Well, im not Eldariel ( which is quite sad, cuz he lives in great finland i guess)
but i think arcane laboratory is a card that buy's us time vs storm comb, because the Stormguy has to spend ressources for gettin' rid of the laboratory while we beat up his ass or lay our chalices.
So it's great but it won't win by itself.

Tacosnape

11-27-2008, 02:10 PM

Well, im not Eldariel ( which is quite sad, cuz he lives in great finland i guess)
but i think arcane laboratory is a card that buy's us time vs storm comb, because the Stormguy has to spend ressources for gettin' rid of the laboratory while we beat up his ass or lay our chalices.
So it's great but it won't win by itself.

Pretty much is an accurate assessment of every hate card in existence, really. Every combo deck has outs. But this does seem like a viable option to compliment the Chalice and Force that doesn't interfere with either one.

socialite

11-27-2008, 02:19 PM

Micron

11-27-2008, 02:54 PM

Hi ya, first post here. Excuse me if my english isn't perfect, I'll try to do my best when posting :)

4 arcane laboratory (still not sure about this one, but it seems to be the balls in the mouth of ad nauseum)

Maybe it has been discussed and discarded before, but what are your thoughts about Trinisphere as SB card? It not only improves the combo matchup, also helps against Dreadstill and Thresh if we are able to resolve it. Of course it hurts our own FoW's but the time it gives us should be enough to develop our game.

Tacosnape

11-27-2008, 04:51 PM

4 Arcane Laboratory is a waste, Id have to say that even running 1 is a waste. This deck really does not need that much help vs Storm Combo and to be honest it is one of the weakest and most narrow cards you could bring in to vs Storm. Nothing is preventing them from bouncing it and going off. (I assume this works).

Nothing except, you know, Force of Will and Chalice of the Void. We should run those. Oh. Wait. We do.

While I'm not necessarily saying "Zomg Arcane Rulez Inculde it!!1" just yet, Arcane Laboratory does several things Trinisphere doesn't. Namely, it hops onto a Chrome Mox and it tosses to a Force of Will. It also doesn't get taken down by Shattering Spree.

Arcane Laboratory's narrow? Sure. It's an anti-combo card. So is Trinisphere. And while they need a little less mana to bounce the Arcane Lab than they do the Trinisphere? If you have a Force backing it up, you want Arcane Lab over Trinisphere. Here's why.

Yes, once they destroy the Trinisphere, you can use Force of Will again. However, the Trinisphere's gone, and their Orim's Chants are freed up. You can defend an Arcane Lab with Force of Will, because they can't Chant you to make their bounce spell resolve. You can't as easily defend the Trinisphere because you're a deck that can rarely afford to keep three mana open to Force, meaning that once they blow up/bounce your Trinisphere EOT? They can untap and draw your Force out with an Orim's Chant. Against Arcane Lab, there's no way they can protect themselves with that Chant. If you Force the bounce spell, you're good to go.

Eldariel

11-27-2008, 05:30 PM

Just for you, Snape:

The very first build of Faerie Stompy I ran used 4 Arcane Laboratories on the sideboard. The other stars included were Energy Flux, Shield Sphere and Misdirection. Out of those, Misdirection was the only one to make the cut to the later builds.

To touch upon Arcane Laboratory, it's very good at what it does. The question is if it does something we want done. I'll give you, it definitely hurts storm combo. It hurts Storm-combo enermously. In fact, if we ran 4 Arcane Laboratories on the SB, I don't think we'd lose to Storm-combo much at all. I sure know I didn't back when I played it (although to be fair, storm-combo was much worse back then). If I had a 60-card sideboard, I have no doubt it would contain 4 Arcane Laboratories. Fact is though, the sideboard is only 15 cards large, which means there's a serious space constraint to consider. Therefore, we'll need to be exceedingly selective of the cards put on the sideboard. Now, a quick look as to if Arcane Laboratory is worth sideboarding, let's walk it through a few questions:

-How often would you want to bring it in?

This is pretty straightforward - how often does one expect the card to come in? By and large it comes in against combo-decks. Note, I didn't say Storm-combo. It's a solid card to bring in against Aluren, Belcher, Elves and a variety of other combo-decks as long as they rely on casting a sequence of spells (which is practically always the case when talking about Legacy-level comboes, save for two-card wins like Painter's Stone) - none of them can go off with it in play. That's where it ends though - it does not come in against any other deck archetype.

Against Threshold-type decks, the fact that they run a large number of instants allows them to partially mitigate the drawback and while the effect is helpful, it's hardly worth a card. Against control, it hurts us more than it hurts them (by making heavy counter barrier a hard lock, for example). Against fast aggro, we need to spend the mana directly answering their board, not slowing down the future development, since that would mean taking hits from the present board, which is a bad plan (and many aggro-decks have means around it, and only plan on actually casting one spell per turn anyways). So it only comes in against combo.

-How much combo do you expect to see?

This is a key factor. Legacy as a format has a number of solid combo-decks, so you could expect combo-decks to form a reasonably large sector of the format. However, the combination of the truly solid Legacy-combo decks requiring lots of practice and playskill to do decently with, and the fact that the format's dominant decks compose the bulks of combo's worst match-ups leads to the combo being a rather small part of the tournament.

However, even if we assumed something huge like 20% of a given tournament being combo (in other words, 10 players in a 50-player tournament), we still only expect to play against it once in the tournament, assuming that we and the deck's players do similarly. Presumably, we'll face it another time in the Top 8 if it's doing well, so we're looking at likely playing against it over the 9 rounds we take to win the tournament (one of which is ID, so we might actually only play one round against it). That means we've spent ~27% of our sideboard for one-two games in the tournament, and that tournament is combo heavy. Not good.

-How good is the card in the match?/Do we need the card to win the match?

Even if the card only comes in once per tournament, if the card turns that one match from a loss into a win, it's quite possibly worth it (depending on the other threats and how strong and wide sideboard cards we've got for those matches). Arcane Laboratory is definitely strong in the match-up. However, do we need it to win against Storm-combo (which, let's face it, is the worst offender out of the bunch)?

Between our 8 Chalices and 4 Force of Wills, I'll say no. I expect to win the majority of my games and matches against any of the Storm-combo decks with 0 Arcane Laboratories on my sideboard. So, the card solves no problems; it just improves at most four games total out of those two matches we play against Storm-combo, assuming we're making it to the finals (which we'll always assume). So, Arcane Laboratory is in no ways necessary, and it takes slots we could instead be using on making the potential difficult match-ups favourable post-board or improving the more likely matches with wider sideboard cards. At this point, I'd say "No." to Arcane Laboratory.

-Does it solve a problem in the match-up it's brought in?

Let's face it, if we lose to Storm-combo, majority of the time it'll be because they got rid of our Chalices. Generally they won't win through the threat of Force before we get at least Chalice at 0 in play (although optimally we'd want Chalice at 1 most of the times). That's going to happen through:
-Krosan Grip
-Serenity
-Ancient Grudge
-Shattering Spree

pretty much in that order (because of the colours required, and the overall use against threats to combo). Out of those, Arcane Laboratory completely trivializes Ancient Grudge and Shattering Spree. Which is great. In other words, it helps against red-running Storm-builds (in other words, TES) a lot. However, Doomsday Tendrils, Ad Nauseam Tendrils and so on tend to opt for one of the two above. Krosan Grip deals with either, but can't deal with both. Serenity, however, unfortunately deals with both and happens to be in the same colour as Orim's Chant and Abeyance, the defense of choice against countermagic nowadays. That said, partially dealing with Krosan Grip is great. So this is a definite point in favour of Arcane Laboratory. It can allow us to deal with the hate that would otherwise cost us the match post-board.

-Are there any better options to deal with the same matches, either with more efficiency or more widespread use (or both)?

This is the critical point. If either of those is true, there's no reason to run the given card before we have 4 of the superior card. With that said, let me present unto thee:

Glen Elendra Archmage

Quick recap:
-Arcane Laboratory helps against combo of all manners; Glen Elendra Archmage helps against combo of all manners (out of the list, only Elves is hurt by Arcane Laboratory, but not by Archmage; between Jittes, Sowers, SoFIs, Forces and Chalices, we're willing to forego that for Painter-variants) and control! Point for Glen Elendra Archmage
-Arcane Laboratory solves no difficult match-ups, but improves some match-ups that are already good. Glen Elendra Archmage improves the same match-ups while ensuring that you have a threat (with hate) and is great against some difficult control match-ups. Point for Glen Elendra Archmage.
-Arcane Laboratory allows you to win through many anti-artifact cards in the combo match-up. Glen Elendra Archmage deals with all of those and functions through Serenity too. Point for Glen Elendra Archmage.
-Arcane Laboratory costs 2U and functions immediately. Glen Elendra Archmage costs 3U and functions a turn later. This is a definite point in Arcane Laboratory's favour.

So, Glen Elendra Archmage is better in every fashion, but two turns slower. However, since the very construction of our deck buys us time, forcing them to deal with the hate we dropped earlier on, that is time we've got. Therefore, I'd definitely run 4 Glen Elendra Archmages before adding a single Arcane Laboratory on my sideboard. As it stands, I run 3 because I haven't found the room for 4th without dropping even more important cards.

Therefore, Arcane Laboratory is miles away from a sideboard slot unless Ad Nauseam-combo proves to be extremely popular in any given metagame (doubtful), and an extremely bad match-up for us because they combo off faster than we can stop them (very doubtful, given that the new lists specifically tend towards slower, more consistent turn 2-4 game rather than maximizing turn 1 wins).

My verdict: Say "NO!" to Arcane Laboratory.

EDIT: That felt good. I need to do this more.