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KillemallCFH
11-28-2008, 07:33 PM
I just want to note that Arcane Lab can be brought in against Dreadstill to stop its namesake (the Dread part, not the Still part). I'm not sure how good it is, especially against Goyf Dreadstill, who can just ignore it and play Goyf beatdown. But against non-Goyf lists, cutting their options down to Factory and Trinket Mage beats might be worth it. Probably not though.

socialite
11-28-2008, 07:44 PM
I just want to note that Arcane Lab can be brought in against Dreadstill to stop its namesake (the Dread part, not the Still part). I'm not sure how good it is, especially against Goyf Dreadstill, who can just ignore it and play Goyf beatdown. But against non-Goyf lists, cutting their options down to Factory and Trinket Mage beats might be worth it. Probably not though.

Chalice at 1 is normally a power play vs the deck and accomplishes the same thing.

KillemallCFH
11-28-2008, 08:31 PM
Chalice at 1 is normally a power play vs the deck and accomplishes the same thing.Of course Chalice does the job better. Arcane Lab just acts as additional ways of stopping it. Also Arcane Lab is harder to get rid of since they can't just drop an EE @ 0.

Again, I agree it is probably too weak/narrow to run. I was just pointing out another application.

3duece
11-28-2008, 10:54 PM
Okay, that's a no on arcane laboratory. So what are your sideboards looking like now? Something like this?
3 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Back to Basics
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
and.......?

Media314r8
11-29-2008, 04:10 AM
SB for diamond FS (which can produce B mana via vault and 4x diamond mox):

SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives (+1 main)
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt (+1 relic main)
SB: 1 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage

DuxDucis
11-29-2008, 04:17 AM
Blue Elemental Blast fills the last holes of my sideboard.

Tacosnape
11-30-2008, 12:58 AM
@Sasa: What's your 60th card?

dazed and confused
12-05-2008, 06:28 PM
I am getting back in to magic and i have made this deck with some minor changes due to limited funding.

I will post my list and explain the changes as well as my observations. I would really like some feedback and suggestions on what can be changed and how the deck could be optimized.

Creatures

4X serendib Effrit
4X cloud of fairies
3X Trinket mage
4X pestermite
4X mulldrifter
2X sower of temptation
2X looters il-kor

Spells

4X Force of will

Artifacts

4X chalice of the void
4X Chrome mox
2X Sword of Fire and Ice
2X Sword of light and Shadow
2X Sigil of Distinction
1X Pithing needle

Land

4X ancient tomb
4X City of Trators
1X seat of the synod
9X Island

SideBoard

The sideboard has not been fully decided on but this is the basic list for the moment

4X Back to Basics
4X Blue elemental blast
1X Pithing needle
1X Engeneered Explosives
2X Tormods Crypt
3X Propaganda

I will not be explaining the standard inclusions such as Trinket mage ect..

Ok so now for some explanations.

Cloud of Fairies: I placed them in for Sea Drake since they are not available in my area and going for ALOT of $. I find they are useful for mana manipulation. I know they are under powered but i haven't found what i would substitute them for as of yet.

Pithing needle main: I always side the needle in so far and always wished i had it the game before. I almost always know what i am playing after a few cards so i am rarely left wondering what i should name. I added another into the sideboard for flexibility.

Engeered explosives: I have seen some lists with 1 main and 1 sideboard and i have seen some with 1 main or 1 sideboard. I chose 1 sideboard since i find it hard to utilize it with only 1 color for sunburst and most of my artifacts are 0 mana cost.

Looters il-kor: Well they are not card advantage, but they do provide a little dig, I have been thinking of changing them to Archmage but i have not been disappointed by their shadow with SoLaS or SoFaI or Sigil.

pestermite: I have not seen these as a standard card in any post, I chose to include them and they have helped in a lot of games i played. They're ability is not as useful for late game but they are still a flying 2/1.

I haven't had the opportunity to test against many types of decks but i will give my results against the ones i have

Elves

I have had a great match up against elves pre board, post board its a little more even. With their mana acceleration and artifact destruction it is a challenge unless you get your chalice out for 1 and 3 QUICK!

Aluren

this match is a little more of a challenge. Maybe it is my draws or lack of knowledge of the deck but they seem to regularly combo off before i can effectively lock them down or do enough damage. Post board it eases up a bit with B2B and second needle.

Agro loam

This one is a challenge to me, They have chalice for 0 stopping my chalice. and then proceed to remove land and creatures with enough momentum to make it so i am not much of a threat. I have has some success when i do get a chalice for 2.

All other decks i played were on MWS online and they seemed to be against rouge decks that did not have a plan

If people have some positive feedback or some helpful suggestions, It would be greatly appreciated

Thanx

Eldariel
12-05-2008, 06:37 PM
Chalice at 0 doesn't stop Chalice at 2; X is considered 0 everywhere except on the stack. When Chalice triggers, the other Chalice is on the stack. So the Chalice at 2 has manacost equal to 4. Also, Aggro Loam is very easy to beat actually (while Sea Drake does help a ton of course); you tend to be faster and have all the answers. Still, make no mistake, you can't afford sloppy playing and it's definitely a race. Blue Elemental Blast is huge, as is Force of Will, and Chalice isn't absolutely a first (or even second priority); first and foremost you want to kick ass and try to setup a position where they can't win with a DD.


What's up with 2 Sigils of Distinction? The card is ridiculously weaker than a Sword of Fire and Ice and the only reason to run them is Trinket Mage. Definitely make the swap-up. Also, 3 Sowers. You already lack power from Sea Drake; make sure you at least have the midgame covered. I wouldn't bother with Looters to improve the Chalice at 2. I'd probably play 4 Sowers straight in a meta like that; you always want to see them if possible. Also, I'd aim to get some Jittes. They kick Propaganda's ass in so many ways it's not even funny.

Yan
12-05-2008, 06:42 PM
This one is a challenge to me, They have chalice for 0 stopping my chalice. and then proceed to remove land and creatures with enough momentum to make it so i am not much of a threat. I have has some success when i do get a chalice for 2.



chalice at 0 doesn't really stop chalice. chalices converted mana cost on the stack is exactly how much you paid for it. it does stop ypur moxen though, which is bad for you.

EDIT. ahh, someone got there faster than me :)

dazed and confused
12-05-2008, 07:21 PM
Thank you, I was under the impression chalice at 0 stopped chalice since paying the chalice places counters. but yes i was wrong.

I will try 2 more sowers and try to locate some jitte's (if i can afford them) and will try 1 more sword in main instead of sigil.

thanks

Clark Kant
12-05-2008, 08:12 PM
In budget Farie Stompy, I would run this creature base...

4X Serendib Efreet
4X Trinket Mage
4X Pestermite
4X Mulldrifter
3X Sower of Temptation
3x Something Else

Cloud of Fairie works okay I guess. But I would probably opt for a beefier threat like Juggernaut or something.

And I would make room for 3x SOFI and 3x SOLS. So please do cut back to 1x Sigil as suggested by others.

DuxDucis
12-06-2008, 07:31 AM
I'm a budget Faerie Stompy player, and I highly reccommend going with Juggernauts in the place of Sea Drakes.

While CoF provides some utility and mana tricks, the Juggernaut is a big threat similar to Sea Drake and generally demands an answer from an opponent.

They do come in a turn later, and your opening might not be as explosive, but CoF isn't going to get the job done, even equipped.

dazed and confused
12-06-2008, 06:03 PM
Well with CoF you can do stuff like T: city for 2 and T: island for 1 then untap them when you play CoF then re tap both to play juggs, but that would depend on them not habing a counter and having both ect..

I took out CoF and replaced them with Juggs and replaced the Il-kor with 2 more sowers for now (untill i get sea drake or a new broken card comes out.

What is the thought of archmage in maindeck though? its a beater and counter. Is it just not as good as the rest of the creatures in the main?

jjjoness'
12-07-2008, 12:26 PM
There was a Legacy tournament in Prague yesterday. 54 ppl, I went 3:3 and nearly fucking threw away the deck. It loses to itself more times then to opponent... Any kind of shit could happen, mainly with manabase - no land mulligans, manascrew, color screw, six lands in the row.. I was affraid of Pernicious Deed.. lol, I should have been worry of FS more.

Although I haven't much experience with FS, I agree on this. I did quite a lot of goldfishing and I had to mull to 5 almost every single game, because I either was flooded or screwed. Don't know if this was just MWS.

Spardantevil
12-07-2008, 01:26 PM
Don't worry, you'll come back to FS quickly.
I threw it away (litteraly) twice after shitty tournaments, tested for another more stable deck then came back because it's so good. The most actually played decks are good MUs. You just need some luck.

Shit happens, that's all.

Otherwise, I'd play goyf sligh or counter slivers, because they're awesomely good decks. Team America at worst.

saspook
12-07-2008, 01:57 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't like Force of Will in this deck? I can rarely pitch it.

I think I would rather run two Rushing Rivers and two more creatures.

Judge_Julez
12-09-2008, 05:08 AM
well, i like this list a lot,
I've tried the 7 or 8 (2)-mana lands, and I found 3 Cities to be the correct number
I still havent found much use for the Engineered Explosives in a mono-colooured deck yet..
It will be interesting to see what (Lorwyn) changes you think affect the deck

i think i will adjust my build close to your list...

I think I will try this: -

============= 22 Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
10 Island
4 Chrome Mox
1 Seat of the Synod

============= 17 Creatures
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Sea Drake
4 Trinket Mage
3 Mulldrifter
2 Cloud of Faeries
(?) Sower of Temptation

============= 21 Other Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2-3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
2-3 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
0-1 Engineered Explosives


============= Sideboard
4 Back to Basics
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Propaganda // 3 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

JeroenC
12-09-2008, 05:32 AM
I personally wouldn't ever even consider dropping one of the double-lands... What exactly is your motivation to do that?
Force of Will and Trinisphere both maindeck is a recipe for disaster.
CoF can be better in some situations but I think (I might be wrong here) that the general agreement is that Pestermite should replace it. Mulldrifter should probably be a 4-of. Playing one Sigil of Distinction is always a safe bet.
I'd go
-2 Cloud of Faeries
-2/3 Trinisphere
-0/1 EE
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+1Mulldrifter
+1Sigil of Distinction
+3Pestermite

-3Thirst for Knowledge
+2 Sower of Temptation
+1 Pestermite

For the sideboard, I'd probably drop the BEBs and replace them with Glen Elendra Archmagi.

Then again, all this is just my opinion- don't take my word for it.

socialite
12-09-2008, 09:09 AM
I still havent found much use for the Engineered Explosives in a mono-colooured deck yet..

Not sure about you but, I sure do love killing Nimble Mongoose, clearing Pithing Needles on my equipment, and blowing up that little known card Sensei's Divining Top.

In all seriousness, how can you not run at least one Engineered Explosives main deck. The thing is stupid good, you can play it around Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance.


For the sideboard, I'd probably drop the BEBs and replace them with Glen Elendra Archmagi.

I would suggest against this. Blue Elemental Blasts help answer turn one Goblin Lackey on the draw versus Goblins. It is also "the nuts" versus Aggro Loam.

My 2 cents.

Gibbie_X
12-09-2008, 09:37 AM
Not sure about you but, I sure do love killing Nimble Mongoose, clearing Pithing Needles on my equipment, and blowing up that little known card Sensei's Divining Top.

In all seriousness, how can you not run at least one Engineered Explosives main deck. The thing is stupid good, you can play it around Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance.



I would suggest against this. Blue Elemental Blasts help answer turn one Goblin Lackey on the draw versus Goblins. It is also "the nuts" versus Aggro Loam.

My 2 cents.

Engineered Explosives are the nuts, but you won't get the Top. If you have a Needle, that's gonna suck, and Nimble Mongoose is not that big or exceedingly prevalent enough of a threat to worry about. Running one Explosives is probably a good idea, but i would do with another land type in my deck. A :b: :u: version would be a good one to run it in.

Kuma
12-09-2008, 12:01 PM
Not sure about you but, I sure do love killing Nimble Mongoose, clearing Pithing Needles on my equipment, and blowing up that little known card Sensei's Divining Top.

In all seriousness, how can you not run at least one Engineered Explosives main deck. The thing is stupid good, you can play it around Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance.



I would suggest against this. Blue Elemental Blasts help answer turn one Goblin Lackey on the draw versus Goblins. It is also "the nuts" versus Aggro Loam.

My 2 cents.

I don't think EE is worth a maindeck slot unless there's a lot of Belcher/TES, Dreadstill, Ichorid, and maybe Goblins in your meta. Few decks main Needle, and, since our creatures fly, Nimble Mongoose is rarely a pain.

I've been content with EE in the board.

Illissius
12-09-2008, 07:02 PM
Unlike before, when Faerie Stompy was forced to choose which additional bad threat(s) to run (Infiltrator il-Kor, anyone?), it now has to choose which of the good threats not to run. It's a marked improvement.

Tao
12-09-2008, 07:57 PM
This may sound a bit crappy but have you thought about Sky Diamond, a blue Signet or Talisman or (I know it sounds crappy) Silver Myr. But I really think it is worth thinking about it. My reasoning is that you need another one drop next to Chalice if you don't have the Chrome Mox/ 2-mana-land / 2-blue-cards / three-drop nuts.

The mentioned cards are acceleration and unlike Cloud of Faeries a strong one drop and permanent blue Sources. I really think that a turn 1 Ancient Tomb - XU Signet is a pretty good setup for the second turn! With a second 2 Mana land it would allow a hardcasted Mulldrifter or Trinket Mage/ Chalice 1 on turn 2. And with an Island it allows a second turn Sower of Temptation. It also fixes the U problem in general.

I think Signets would be the best Choice. Unlike Talismans they tap for U without pain and unlike sky Diamond you can tap them on the turn you play them (and maybe maindeck Explosives again).

socialite
12-09-2008, 10:55 PM
Engineered Explosives are the nuts, but you won't get the Top. If you have a Needle, that's gonna suck, and Nimble Mongoose is not that big or exceedingly prevalent enough of a threat to worry about. Running one Explosives is probably a good idea, but i would do with another land type in my deck. A :b: :u: version would be a good one to run it in.

Yeah Im not sure why I didn't catch that.


Either way I have never really been upset with Engineered Explosives in the main. Im not sure why people want to cut down the Trinket Mage toolbox.

Eldariel
12-10-2008, 12:46 AM
It's the room. I'd rather have another card than EE - the cards EE hits are rarely the reason I lose G1, and I win more by having another card in the slot than having EE in the slot (in my case, having an additional piece of equipment in the slot). It's plenty from the sideboard, but there's such a notable number of decks it's not good against that I'm kinda iffy on spending a slot on something so sitiuational. Yet, it's good often enough to definitely want that SB-slot.

Dr. DOOM
12-10-2008, 05:59 AM
This may sound a bit crappy but have you thought about Sky Diamond, a blue Signet or Talisman or (I know it sounds crappy) Silver Myr. But I really think it is worth thinking about it. My reasoning is that you need another one drop next to Chalice if you don't have the Chrome Mox/ 2-mana-land / 2-blue-cards / three-drop nuts.

The mentioned cards are acceleration and unlike Cloud of Faeries a strong one drop and permanent blue Sources. I really think that a turn 1 Ancient Tomb - XU Signet is a pretty good setup for the second turn! With a second 2 Mana land it would allow a hardcasted Mulldrifter or Trinket Mage/ Chalice 1 on turn 2. And with an Island it allows a second turn Sower of Temptation. It also fixes the U problem in general.

I think Signets would be the best Choice. Unlike Talismans they tap for U without pain and unlike sky Diamond you can tap them on the turn you play them (and maybe maindeck Explosives again).

I have thought about this, but it would mean cutting good cards to replace them for bad ones. Cutting chrome mox for signets/myr/diamond does give card advantage but it slows down, and that's taking away what FS is about.

In most cases this would also decrease the amount of blue cards in the deck, resulting in less options for pitching for FoW and Mox. That's a situation you don't want to be in.

About turn two sower of temptation: I would only want that against Dreadstill, but otherwise that is not necessary at all. I want a turn 1, 2 or 3 flyer that kicks my opponents ass and use the Sower to add insult to injury :laugh:

Tao
12-10-2008, 06:49 AM
FS wants to spend much mana: Play or evoke Mulldrifter (3/5 mana), play and equip one of 6 Swords (5 Mana) or Sigil of Distinction (X Mana), to set Chalice at 2 (4 Mana) and to play Sowers (4 Mana with UU).

The mana base was originally designed for a deck with cheaper cards: It played Jitte instead of the BW-Sword, Cloud of Faeries (which is also a Mana source or finds one) instead of Sower of Temptation, less draw because Mulldrifter was not printed back then (and draw is double Mana intensive because you have to pay for the draw and the drawn cards). Nevertheless the mana base was left unchanged. So maybe the deck indeed needs to cut some spells for addional mana sources to have the optimal amount of mana.

Shion
12-10-2008, 07:30 AM
Technically Pestermites are in the slot Cloud of Faeries used to inhabit. The Sowers of Temptation replaced the Sea Sprite/Weatherseed Faeries/Looter Il-Kor slot and the Mulldrifters went in the Thirst for Knowledge slot, where they can still be evoked for the same cost.

Pestermites are more mana then Cloud of Faeries but fit Faerie Stompy's curve better then Cloud and are almost superior in every way.

The Sower's do cost more mana then the previous cards in that slot, but they fill that slot much better then the old cards ever did. The old creatures in that slot were the worst cards in the deck, they were only there because there were no better creatures at the time, and the deck needed the additional threats.

Also, Light and Shadow is only 1 more mana to cast then Jitte, and can be cast under Chalice at 2 which more than makes up for it's increased mana cost in my opinion. It also works better with the current build by recurring evoked Mulldrifters.

So while it's true that the average casting cost has gone up, the consistency of the deck has also gone up. The additional threats and extra creatures don't stretch the manabase enough to justify adding more land or mana sources in my opinion. The threat density needs to be kept fairly high, and I haven't had enough problems with the mana base to warrant changing it around. Although I have lost to mana screw, I blame myself for poor mulligan choices.

JeroenC
12-10-2008, 07:48 AM
What do you mean, Pestermite not so obvious? I dropped CoF as soon as Pestermite was out. I was pretty certain about Mulldrifter but had my doubts (at first) about the cost of it(obviously, I was wrong). It also found a quick way into my deck.
Sower of Temptation I've only added recently, as I found him the least obvious one of the additions... That's just my two cents, but I always thought of Pestermite as extremely obvious as an addition instead of CoF, from the moment that it was spoiled.

Tao
12-10-2008, 08:07 AM
The deck has changed a lot and all changes increased the mana cost. It changed CoF to Pest., Pro:Red Faerie to Sower, Jitte to SoLaS and TfK to Drifter (I know you can evoke it for the same cost but since you want to use the 5-Mana-option from time to time the mana cost increased slightly).

Please note that I don't want you to go back to the old build. Drifter, Sower, Pestermite and SoLaS are great cards and they should all be played in the deck. I just think you need to rethink the manabase if you increase the Mana cost in 4 slots.

JeroenC
12-10-2008, 11:37 AM
Yeah, that was directed at you. I'm sorry, didn't want to sound offensive. Also, I don't understand the remark about three months differences, they're both from Lorwyn, right? And I know that it's besides the point you were making, I just wanted to say that I personally thought Pestermite was obvious and that I had some doubts about Sower (at first).

But you have a point, perhaps I shouldn't have said those things.

Tao
12-10-2008, 04:21 PM
Well, I think there is an development in the deck but many Legacy players are stubborn with their versions of a deck and decline new options generally.

JeroenC
12-11-2008, 10:16 AM
Yep, I had a conversation about this at a tournament I was playing at, but it was a pretty long time ago. Tournament of +- 30 people, me and some guy I don't know running Faerie Stompy. His deck looked good (just about everything was shiny, Sea Drake Asianized and Arabian Nights Efreets- even though I prefer the green borders). Mine played good (I didn't, though, but that wasn't my deck's fault). I explained to him how Mite is better in just about a million ways, but I could obviously notice how he wasn't paying attention. Same for Mulldrifter "what 5 mana in Legacy you must be insane kthxbye".
This deck used to be a perfect example of the border of "danger of cool things". It deserved the respect it got, but it relied too much (I think, in retrospect) on plays like crazy stuff with double lands and CoF. Now, we're consistent, we're good, and the only thing that should be getting people not to want to play this deck is the price tag on Sea Drakes and how much less powerful the deck is without them.

Eldariel
12-12-2008, 11:43 AM
I wouldn't fret about that. It's MWS. Things like that happen.

Kuma
12-12-2008, 01:14 PM
Is anyone else disappointed with Sigil of Distinction? I find myself siding it out every game, as it's really a late game card in a deck that doesn't want to play the late game.

Also, in your experience, how good is Back to Basics against Aggro Loam? I've cut the card from my sideboard because there's almost no board control in my meta, but if it's effective against Aggro Loam and Thresh, it might be worth putting back in. In general, what kind of mana base does your opponent have to be running to make B2B worth it?

Arsenal
12-12-2008, 01:23 PM
I like Sigil. There are times when I gas my hand, and either I (a.) draw it and can make my 2/2 or 3/* guys into legit threats, or (b.) topdeck Trinket Mage -> Sigil -> win.

Kuma
12-15-2008, 03:01 PM
Yeah, I won an important game on Friday by top-decking a Sigil and playing it for just enough to kill my opponent, but I rarely find myself wanting it or even tutoring it up with a Trinket Mage. I just can't help but think there has to be something more useful we could be running in the main.

The problem is that in most matchups, Chalice, Crypt, Needle, and even Chrome Mox are better than Sigil.

I've played B2B in a few tournaments and absolutely hated it. It's only good against Landstill, Rock, and 42 land. It doesn't work well against Thresh, because they usually run basics, and need very little mana to operate anyway. Winter Orb has proven useful against a wider variety of decks, but recently I've cut that because I don't side it in often. Maybe it's my metagame, but there seems to be much better SB choices than a card that often hurts you almost as much as your opponent.

Dr. DOOM
12-16-2008, 08:58 AM
I've played B2B in a few tournaments and absolutely hated it. It's only good against Landstill, Rock, and 42 land.

It works against any deck that runs non-basics. Just drop it when they have their non-basics tapped out. If that does not happen at all you can still imprint/pitch it.

I have won a lot of games that went like this: Opponent taps out for EE@3 or Deed, I play BtB and win the game.

Kuma
12-20-2008, 11:32 AM
I take back every negative comment I've ever made about Back to Basics.

It's awesome. It turns Pestermites into Wastelands on legs, and Sea Drake softens the blow to your mana base. It also turns the Aggro Loam match from iffy into a positive.

I think I'm in love.

rsaunder
12-21-2008, 01:33 PM
So it strikes me that, at least in the northeast US, this deck is a hell of a metagame foil right now. Has anyone had any success with FS recently? It's somewhat fallen off the radar from what I can see.

Eldariel
12-21-2008, 03:48 PM
It was a Deck to Watch in september. Then mysteriously, it hasn't put up any Top 8s really. Don't ask me; I failed at the Salvation online tournament 'cause I suck at Magic (and my deck crapped out on me a few times to boot), but that doesn't explain why people stopped putting up results offline.

It should be a great metagame foil - a deck capable of punishing the Counterbalance-decks' manacurve while pretty much ignoring Counterbalance itself, and one which has manabase immune to Stifles seems like just the thing for the metagame right now. It doesn't hurt that FS is one of the best means to combat Storm-combo either.

KillemallCFH
12-21-2008, 04:03 PM
So it strikes me that, at least in the northeast US, this deck is a hell of a metagame foil right now. Has anyone had any success with FS recently? It's somewhat fallen off the radar from what I can see.VsTheWorld has had some mild success with it recently, taking 9th at the Source Anniversary tournament, and Top8ing a Hadley tournament recently. Besides that, it is basically unplayed for some reason.

Tacosnape
12-22-2008, 07:15 PM
It falls off the radar for three reasons:

1. People view it as incredibly inconsistent.
2. While 1 isn't as true as people think it is (FS is way more consistent than Dragon Stompy, for example), it's still inconsistent sometimes.
3. People don't have Sea Drakes.

That said, seriously? This deck is a penischopper in the modern metagame. Give it a shot.

URABAHN
12-22-2008, 07:27 PM
That said, seriously? This deck is a penischopper in the modern metagame. Give it a shot.

What about it makes it a penischopper? Other than what Eldariel's already said, what makes you think this so?

Tacosnape
12-22-2008, 08:09 PM
What about it makes it a penischopper? Other than what Eldariel's already said, what makes you think this so?

I think in large part it exposes the metagame's ever-increasing tendency towards speed. No deck abuses Chalice of the Void moreso than Faerie Stompy, and to some degree, the thought of "Chalice of the Void," makes people mentally count their 1-drops and only their 1-drops, whereas FS can effortlessly shut off a deck's 2-drops curve either instead or also.

Faerie Stompy abuses acceleration, but has significant ways to recoup its losses. SOLS helps negate the penalties of life loss from Ancient Tomb, and it, SOFI, and Mulldrifter all help recover card disadvantage from the use of powerhouses like Force of Will and Chrome Mox.

Faerie Stompy also has one of the more interesting solutions to a metagame increasingly full of undercosted huge guys: Fly over the top of them. The entire deck flies sans Trinket Mage, which lets Faerie Stompy dictate the pace of a threat stalemate by deciding when it wants to turn a battle for board position into a pure damage race. And thanks to the equipment and random little helpers like Sower of Temptation and the Trinket Mage/Sigil of Distinction thingy, the damage race is very often on FS's side.

Furthermore, it has an out to everything. Seriously. Storm Combo? Force and Chalice is a good start. Ichorid? Trinket Mage gives you 6-7 Crypts postboard, and Mulldrifter erases Bridge from Below. Goblins? Fly over them, introduce them to Sword of Fire and Ice. Survival of the Fittest? Trinket Mage up a Needle, shut it off with Chalice for 2, or screw up their manabase with Chalice-1, Back to Basics, and Pestermite. Threshold? Wreck them with Chalices, fly over their guys, ignore Counterbalance, and steal the Tarmogoyfs. Landstill? Fight their card advantage with Mulldrifter and Trinket Mages, Needle their cool stuff, and wreck them with Back to Basics. Burn or Goyf Sligh? Get a Chalice for 1, then let your equipment prove how unfair life is. Seriously? There isn't really anything Faerie Stompy isn't either favored or close to even against when it wins the die roll, and there's never a matchup where you just go scoop and go find lunch/dinner.

Arsenal
12-23-2008, 12:11 AM
Sea Drakes are the biggest thing holding it back. I mean, for the price of a playset of Drakes, you can buy a playset of blue duals. That's a huge investment for cards that are only playable in one deck, versus an investment for cards that you can play in many decks.

Maveric78f
12-23-2008, 05:27 AM
It should be a great metagame foil - a deck capable of punishing the Counterbalance-decks' manacurve while pretty much ignoring Counterbalance itself, and one which has manabase immune to Stifles seems like just the thing for the metagame right now. It doesn't hurt that FS is one of the best means to combat Storm-combo either.i can't agree with this. FS isnot immune go stifle. Maybe, that's a secret you want go keep, būt chrome mox c'an be stifled.

Eldariel
12-23-2008, 06:14 AM
i can't agree with this. FS isnot immune go stifle. Maybe, that's a secret you want go keep, būt chrome mox c'an be stifled.

I've never seen anyone Stifle Chrome Mox. That said, you're right, it's a legal play. Still, we don't run Fetches, so Stifle is unlike to impact our manabase to a considerable degree. Also, if you happen to have a second Mox in hand, they'll feel really silly Stifling the first.

Spardantevil
12-23-2008, 08:14 AM
It happened to me only once over every tournament I played with this deck... And still won the game.

The more annoying play that happened to me is stifling an equipment or CoF's CIP. This may be really really bad.


Just drop your Chalice @1 anyway, I don't see a deck playing stifle where you would like Chalice@ 2 before.

Eatatjoes
12-23-2008, 09:20 AM
For anybody that looks at sea drakes as to expensive, just shop around, dont try to buy the whole playset at once, otherwise most people will try to charge you a premium, I just shopped around and bought 1 a week, and i only spent 30 on each one, look at them as an investment, and i already have people offer me 150-160 for my playset, and they are all mint, look at them as an investment, and if you dont want them anymore sell them and make a profit

rsaunder
12-23-2008, 09:48 AM
For anybody that looks at sea drakes as to expensive, just shop around, dont try to buy the whole playset at once, otherwise most people will try to charge you a premium, I just shopped around and bought 1 a week, and i only spent 30 on each one, look at them as an investment, and i already have people offer me 150-160 for my playset, and they are all mint, look at them as an investment, and if you dont want them anymore sell them and make a profitNo one's been having trouble droppong around $20/piece for naughts or a similar price for grindstones. Hell, people played frigging imperial painter for a while; $400 for recruiters.

I think I'll be placing an order today, not for sea drakes, but for mulldrifters and a couple other commons. Sad, I know.

Kuma
12-23-2008, 11:22 AM
2. While 1 isn't as true as people think it is (FS is way more consistent than Dragon Stompy, for example), it's still inconsistent sometimes.

I think the decks are consistent in different ways. For example, I mulligan more with Faerie Stompy than Dragon Stompy since Dragon Stompy runs more mana producers. However, over the course of the game Faerie Stompy is more consistent due to its card draw.

Vs certain decks, Dragon Stompy has the ability to keep hands on the play like Moon, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, etc., because Blood Moon will shut off entire decks. Faerie Stompy doesn't have a Spirit Guide, nor does it have a turn one play that backbreaking.

Faerie Stompy is definitely the better overall deck, but Dragon Stompy eats certain metagames alive.

And yeah, the mulligan issue is overblown. I think most of the people who believe Faerie Stompy is wildly inconsistent either haven't played the deck, or are Threshold players to whom if a deck has to mulligan once per tournament it's inconsistent.

JeroenC
12-23-2008, 12:12 PM
I think most people who think it's inconsistent are thinking back to the early days, when we were still pretty inconsistent. Like, before Lorwyn.

TheRock
12-23-2008, 12:34 PM
How often does everybody take mulligans with this deck - 1 out of every 4 hands? If that's the case, that's still not bad considering I flush Solidarity and Spring Tide hands down the drain as much and even more often than that.

The only question I would really have for this deck is the matchup against Team America (which I feel hasn't gone through the test of time yet). If this deck goes 50/50 with it, then I don't see how it isn't as good as that deck. This deck doesn't lose to Counterbalance and doesn't rely on Daze and there is a lot to be said about that. There isn't a deck I play where I actually want to face a Faerie Stompy opponent.

Kuma
12-23-2008, 01:25 PM
I'd say on a good night I mull about once every five hands, including my mulligans as hands.

On a bad night, probably more like once every two or three. One night, I mulled eight times in eleven games. I still went 2-2.

I'd say between three and a half or four and a half is average for me.

Mantis
12-23-2008, 01:56 PM
Wow, with my Workshop Aggro build in Vintage I mull about once every 3 games and I think the lists are pretty much comparable.
I probably mull one in every 4 games with Goblins and quite possibly even more. Either your mulligan tactics vary wildly from mine or the list is a LOT more stable than given credit for.

Tao
12-24-2008, 04:24 AM
Until WotC prints Faerie Spirit Guide, we must bear this problematic starting hands.


I suggested XX Signet or Sky Diamond to have a second turn 1 play beneath CotV a while ago but I was ignored (not even flamed, just ignored). I still think FS Mana count is too low and thus is mulls often and thus it does not Top8 enough.
Just compare the Mana count to DS - they not only run Spirit Guide, they also ruzn Seething Song. I know they want to be hellbent and FoW is free but still the average mana costs of both decks are comparable and the mana count is 22 - 30 (a difference of 8 is like the difference between Landstill and Goyf Sligh).

Eldariel
12-24-2008, 05:06 AM
The thing is, adding additional mana sources would make the draws much worse midgame. That's one of the principal problems with Dragon Stompy; you'll often be drawing a bunch of mana sources after your opener. This would be emphasized in Faerie Stompy with the draw effects. That said, I've been considering few more mana sources, but I'm not sure that's for the best, because what you win in mana consistency, you lose in topdecking and opener spell consistency. Heck, I'm already flooded rather often.

Giles
12-24-2008, 06:05 AM
I guess it truly depends on what you need. If you need colorless, mindstone cantrips as well.
If it is colored, then I am not really sure what is out there.

Dr. DOOM
12-24-2008, 09:32 AM
Faerie Stompy is definitely the better overall deck, but Dragon Stompy eats certain metagames alive.


Yeah I noticed that at a tournament where I played 2-0 and 2-0 in two subsequent matches:cool: . DS wrecks nearly all manabases in Legacy, which FS cannot do.

On the other hand, FS eats DS alive because of the threat count+equipment+sower of temptation. This is for FS the easiest matchup I've ever had IMHO.

Arsenal
12-24-2008, 09:40 AM
It isn't actually the threat count (as both decks run 22-24 creatures), but Faerie Stompy's evasion, not caring about 3Sphere/CotV/Blood Moon, and SoFI that really ruin Dragon Stompy.

I play both decks regularly, and I cannot tell you how disheartening it is to know that (a.) my 8 Moon effects do little to slow the Faerie Stompy player down, (b.) my turn 1 CotV @ 1 play does NOTHING at all versus Faerie Stompy, and (c.) your creatures fly and you run equipment that hoses red. Basically, the Dragon Stompy player has anywhere from 8-16 cards of chaff game 1 (Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, 3Sphere, CotV). That's insane.

Kuma
12-24-2008, 11:08 AM
The thing is, adding additional mana sources would make the draws much worse midgame. That's one of the principal problems with Dragon Stompy; you'll often be drawing a bunch of mana sources after your opener. This would be emphasized in Faerie Stompy with the draw effects. That said, I've been considering few more mana sources, but I'm not sure that's for the best, because what you win in mana consistency, you lose in topdecking and opener spell consistency. Heck, I'm already flooded rather often.

Here's hoping we get a decent blue basic landcycler in Conflux.

Tacosnape
12-24-2008, 11:16 AM
The thing is, adding additional mana sources would make the draws much worse midgame. That's one of the principal problems with Dragon Stompy; you'll often be drawing a bunch of mana sources after your opener. This would be emphasized in Faerie Stompy with the draw effects. That said, I've been considering few more mana sources, but I'm not sure that's for the best, because what you win in mana consistency, you lose in topdecking and opener spell consistency. Heck, I'm already flooded rather often.

And FS doesn't have eight pump guys to make use of excess mana, either. The best we can do with the excess mana is equip guys the same turn we drop them or avoid shocking ourselves with Ancient Tomb.

Eldariel
12-24-2008, 11:53 AM
And FS doesn't have eight pump guys to make use of excess mana, either. The best we can do with the excess mana is equip guys the same turn we drop them or avoid shocking ourselves with Ancient Tomb.

The more important difference is that FS doesn't have Blood Moon to want/need excess lands midgame. Dragon Stompy pretty much turns into basic mountain mode after the first turns, while FS continues the accelerated gameplan.

Captain Hammer
12-24-2008, 12:30 PM
I suggested XX Signet or Sky Diamond to have a second turn 1 play beneath CotV a while ago but I was ignored (not even flamed, just ignored). I still think FS Mana count is too low and thus is mulls often and thus it does not Top8 enough.
Just compare the Mana count to DS - they not only run Spirit Guide, they also ruzn Seething Song. I know they want to be hellbent and FoW is free but still the average mana costs of both decks are comparable and the mana count is 22 - 30 (a difference of 8 is like the difference between Landstill and Goyf Sligh).

You have a valid point, as do others.

I don't know how others are getting away with mulling only once every five hands. I end having to throw back close to half my hands, and I shuffle like a mofo so it can't be that.

This deck's major weakness is the lack of consistency. You too often end up being mana screwed early on. But the concern is, if you up the mana count, you'll end up mana flooded later on, akin to Dragon Stompy. You still frequently become mana flooded mid game.

In theory, mana and consistency problems are fixable. We're doing something wrong. Maybe Signets or Sky Diamonds are the best option. Signets have the bonus of working well with Engineered Explosives, but sometimes poorly with 2 mana lands. Maybe the deck should be built around Mox Diamond rather than Chrome Mox. Or maybe it should just be playing fewer City of Traitors.

Whatever the answer, the best possible answer we could get... Fairie Spirit Guide isn't available to us. It's a shame really. Having a blue card that doubles as both a threat and a mana source is EXACTLY what this deck needs to fix it's consistency sources. You could pitch it to FoW/Chrome, play it even after a City of Traitors, or lay it down and equip it, and cycle it back to your hand with Sword of Light and Shadow. It's the perfect card, and yet, it doens't exist.

I really hope that Wizards prints some decent islandcycler in the next set at the very least.

Arsenal
12-24-2008, 12:38 PM
Although Dragon Stompy runs SSG and Seething Song, I don't see how Dragon Stompy gets "flooded" mid-game. By turn 4-6, if I do draw a SSG, I don't use that as mana, I use it as a 2/2 body. The only "flood" mid-game I get is if I draw a Seething Song, and it rarely sits in my hand 100% dead. I've never really come across getting land, land, land, SSG, Seething Song, Seething Song as my draws mid-game.

Also, if they did print a blue Spirit Guide, you couldn't get it back via SoLS due it being removed from the game.

Captain Hammer
12-24-2008, 12:47 PM
My mistake.

I had another idea. Do you think the deck could find a way to make room for Mishra's Factory. Cut a City, a Tomb, an Mox/Island/Shoreline Ranger and some business spell and there you go.

Factory doubles as both a threat and a mana source. But best of all, by playing it, STANDSTILL becomes an automatic 4x in the deck. And this in turn lets the deck draw into more threats. Hell, the possible opening of Chrome Mox, Factory, Standstill on turn one makes what might otherwise be a weak hand into a very strong one.

Honestly, just stalling the game for a few turns by laying down Standstill even without a Factory in hand helps this deck. The more turns that go by without either player drawing cards, the more readily this deck can load up on threats and play down mana sources. Given how quickly the deck is able to eat through cards, and how big the threats are, and how much of a threat density the deck has, stalling the game is probably a nice advantage for Fairie Stompy.

It definately seems worth trying. I know Standstill didn't make much sense before. But post Lorywn, when our threats have gotten better, and we play Sower of Temptation which helps us abuse Standstill even more, it definately seems worth giving another shot.

I actually think the equipment serves somewhat as a win more card. For the equipment to be busted, you need a ton of mana to be able to cast and equip it, and you need to retain a threat in play. But failing to meet those requirements is the main problem people have with the deck already. They fail to have enough mana and fail to be able to keep a threat in play through counters and removal. So while equipment is broken, I think the deck could fare okay to cut 2 equipment to make room for Standstill, a card that actually helps you recover from the lack of sufficent mana sources, or sufficent threats.

P.S: Eldariel, it seems like the opening post should get the updated list. The current opening list is still prelorywn and fails to play Pestermite, Mulldrifter, and Sowers, instead continuing to play such outdated cards as Cloud of Fairies and Thirsts. That could mislead people. We also already settled on answers for the questions you asked and have now moved onto completely different topics.

Eldariel
12-24-2008, 01:51 PM
P.S: Eldariel, it seems like the opening post should get the updated list. The current opening list is still prelorywn and fails to play Pestermite, Mulldrifter, and Sowers, instead continuing to play such outdated cards as Cloud of Fairies and Thirsts. That could mislead people. We also already settled on answers for the questions you asked and have now moved onto completely different topics.

I know and agree. I've been too occupied for the last few months to rewrite it... I'll get on it at some point though!

Captain Hammer
12-25-2008, 09:13 AM
So to reiterate, do you think the deck would benefit from running Standstill?

This makes the opponent slow down to your level when you have a slot start and are forced to open with Island, then Island. It lets the deck draw into more threats even when tight on mana. Hell, the possible opening of Chrome Mox, Factory, Standstill on turn one makes what might otherwise be a weak hand into a very strong one.

To maximally abuse it, you have to make room for Factory. But that's not difficult to make room for.

Honestly, just stalling the game for a few turns by laying down Standstill even without a Factory in hand helps this deck. The more turns that go by without either player drawing cards, the more readily this deck can load up on threats and play down mana sources. Given how quickly the deck is able to eat through cards, and how big the threats are, and how much of a threat density the deck has, stalling the game is probably a nice advantage for Fairie Stompy.

It definately seems worth trying. I know Standstill didn't make much sense before. But post Lorywn, when our threats have gotten better, and we play Sower of Temptation which helps us abuse Standstill even more, it definately seems worth giving another shot.

I actually think the equipment serves somewhat as a win more card. For the equipment to be busted, you need a ton of mana to be able to cast and equip it, and you need to retain a threat in play. But failing to meet those requirements is the main problem people have with the deck already. They fail to have enough mana and fail to be able to keep a threat in play through counters and removal. So while equipment is broken, I think the deck could fare okay to cut 2 equipment to make room for Standstill, a card that actually helps you recover from the lack of sufficent mana sources, or sufficent threats

Tacosnape
12-25-2008, 11:51 AM
@Standstill/Factory: No. Just. No.

But for the sake of post quality, let's dissect the thousands of things wrong with this.

1. Mishra's Factory can't fit in this deck without killing the consistency. Period. We need blue. 4 Tomb and 4 City is all the colorless the deck can handle. Cutting these is not an option. Cutting Islands is not an option. Therefore including Mishra's Factory is not an option.

2. Therefore, without Mishra's Factory, we have very little guarantee that many scenarios will appear where the opponent needs to break the Standstill.

3. Oh, and Standstill isn't on our mana curve, gets blocked by Chalice for 2, is weak against one of our worst matchups (Namely, anything -else- running Standstill), and just doesn't do what we need a card to do.

4. Furthermore, any situation where the opponent would have to break the Standstill and not us? Standstill is pretty win more. We don't lose with threat superiority on the board all that often, barring a boardsweeper. We lose most of our games to A. Mulligan Death, B. Not having threat superiority on the board, which Standstill makes worse by virtue of either cutting down on the threats in our deck or cutting down on the equipment that makes our threats stronger.

scrumdogg
12-25-2008, 12:12 PM
What was the consensus concerning Thirst for Knowledge? Has it been dropped for some combination of more critters/more Sword of Something-Tasty? Has 6x Swords of OMG-goodness! become the accepted configuration as well? That would alleviate the loss of card draw from the TfKs to an extent as well as making the fliers downright fearsome, if at a slower pace. Posts have been suggesting a 3x split between the two Swords, but I don't understand why. SOLAS seems strictly better given the ability to evoke & then return Mulldrifter every turn (as well as offset the damage from Efreet and Tombs and, you know, those pesky opponents). The ability to get back threats and/or chump-blockers also seems more relevant than an extra Shock plus one card. Furthermore, with more of the format picking up Tombstalkers & Snuff Outs and STP/O-Ring always around, pro black/white seems more relevant than pro red/blue.

DuxDucis
12-25-2008, 04:46 PM
Mulldrifter has definitely taken the place of TfK. I dont think I would ever go back :smile:

The 6 swords and the Sigil seem to be the best configuration I've found for the equipment. It still pays off to have the Jittes in the sideboard. I like the 3x spilt with the swords, the both have their benefits. I agree that the pro-red is definitely not as relevant as it used to be.

Fuzzy
12-25-2008, 05:44 PM
1. Mishra's Factory can't fit in this deck without killing the consistency. Period. We need blue.


http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/10E/EN/Card106531.jpg

Could be a option?

Illissius
12-25-2008, 05:58 PM
Another thing we need is speed. Though I do occasionally wonder whether Moxen couldn't be simply swapped for Islands, because Chrome Moxen hate me and I hate them. Eldariel, I assume you've actually tested this at some point?

Eldariel
12-25-2008, 07:39 PM
Another thing we need is speed. Though I do occasionally wonder whether Moxen couldn't be simply swapped for Islands, because Chrome Moxen hate me and I hate them. Eldariel, I assume you've actually tested this at some point?

Yea, it's been tested. The principal reason for Moxes is the turn 1 Chalice at 1 with maximum consistency, one of the principal reasons the deck just wins so many games. The second being the Drake-synergies, and the third being able to keep hands wihout 2-mana lands while still playing accelerated games. Oh, and the fourth being able to answer Lackey on the draw reasonably often (less relevant nowadays). And fifth, a great counter to all the LD in the format.

DuxDucis
12-26-2008, 06:42 PM
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/10E/EN/Card106531.jpg

Could be a option?

CIPT is a killer. In my mind it would be a terrible choice. We need blue but we need blue right away, not next turn.

Djinn
12-26-2008, 08:47 PM
Faerie Conclave was used in the first versions of faerie stompy and then was dropped due to it being a little bit too slow and probably because there were not so many removal-packed decks as there used to be. So now the meta is faster and there're no such deck, so it is probably not the way to go. Feel free to test it and post results tho :P

Kuma
12-27-2008, 12:50 PM
On the topic of mulligans, I mulled four times in fourteen games last night. Two were in a mull to five that I ended up winning anyway, and I went 2-1 in games where I mulliganed.

Not conclusive, but the whole mulligan problem is overrated.

dahcmai
12-28-2008, 06:03 PM
I have to admit this thing is a mulligan machine. You do end up mulliganing quite a bit. I guess you just got lucky. I had to mulligan to 5 often in the last weekends tournament. Though I did end up winning quite a few of those 5 card hands.

The thing I have to admire about this deck is how powerful it can be even on a 5 card hand.

I had a game last sat that went like this.

1st turn, I have a full 7 for once.
Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Sea Drake.

1st turn (opponent)
Drops lotus petal, Bayou, Lion's eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens for 8 tokens. Ouch.

2nd turn for me.

Drop City, SoFaI, equip, swing for 8.

2nd for opponent.

Swing for 8.

3rd for me

Drop another SoFaI, equip, swing for 12, gg


Gotta love being able to race a Belcher deck.


2nd game was Chalice at 0, then Chalice at 1, later on I put out a Chalice at 3 to stop desperate ritual into Shattering Spree. (I knew the decks tech for getting out of Chalice locks). Trinket Mage goes all the way. That's just scary.



I wish they would print some card to shore up it's ability to get it's perfect mana start and this deck would be virtually unbeatable. It's soooo good against everything.

JeroenC
12-29-2008, 04:58 AM
How did your Belcher opponent cast EtW? Unless if I'm missing something, he only had 3 mana: one from Petal, one from Bayou and one from Rite of Flame... He can't use the LED to cast EtW, or am I completely losing it here?

Aggro_zombies
12-29-2008, 06:12 AM
How did your Belcher opponent cast EtW? Unless if I'm missing something, he only had 3 mana: one from Petal, one from Bayou and one from Rite of Flame... He can't use the LED to cast EtW, or am I completely losing it here?

Declare Empty the Warrens. It's not in your hand anymore, but not quite on the stack yet.

Pay Empty the Warrens' mana cost. Sacrifice LED.

Put Empty the Warrens onto the stack.

EDIT: IIRC that's how it works. I know you can use LED to empty your hand when you're casting Infernal Tutor in ANT and TES.

Eldariel
12-29-2008, 06:36 AM
Declare Empty the Warrens. It's not in your hand anymore, but not quite on the stack yet.

Pay Empty the Warrens' mana cost. Sacrifice LED.

Put Empty the Warrens onto the stack.

EDIT: IIRC that's how it works. I know you can use LED to empty your hand when you're casting Infernal Tutor in ANT and TES.

That doesn't work. You can only play LED's mana ability as an instant (see errata); you can RESPOND to Infernal Tutor with LED getting the mana to pay for whatever you're tutoring for, but you couldn't pay for the Tutor itself. In the same vein, you couldn't pay for Warrens itself. I reckon there's an SSG/ESG involved in resolving the Empty the Warrens.

Aggro_zombies
12-29-2008, 06:47 AM
That doesn't work. You can only play LED's mana ability as an instant (see errata); you can RESPOND to Infernal Tutor with LED getting the mana to pay for whatever you're tutoring for, but you couldn't pay for the Tutor itself. In the same vein, you couldn't pay for Warrens itself. I reckon there's an SSG/ESG involved in resolving the Empty the Warrens.
Derp derp derp, I stand corrected then.

ParkerLewis
12-29-2008, 07:04 AM
On the topic of mulligans, I mulled four times in fourteen games last night. Two were in a mull to five that I ended up winning anyway, and I went 2-1 in games where I mulliganed.

Not conclusive, but the whole mulligan problem is overrated.

Point is, you mulled 4 times out of 14. That is not negligible at all (also, sample size etc).

In any case, saying "it's overrated because I ended up winning anyway" implies that the loss of the cards doesn't impact the chances at winning, which is clearly false.

(It might be less important than in other decks, because what FS basically aims at is an explosive start and then hopes that the opponent won't be able to catch up in time. Still, an explosive start with 6 or less cards does mean one less way to deal with their plan / reaction or to add pressure).

Tao
12-29-2008, 07:08 AM
Since I am not getting any reasonable answers to my critic on the current manabase, I will repeat it. The mana count is too low for the cards the deck plays.


I got unshakable opinion that taking out land and adding cc4 creature helped me to avoid mana screw and mulligans.


The thing is, adding additional mana sources would make the draws much worse midgame.

The first is one of the stupidest things I ever read, I won't even comment on that. Furthermore arguing against an unshakable opinion is useless.
The second is obvious. Of course the topdecks are brilliant when you play 21.5 mana sources and cram the deck with cards that cost 4-5 Mana (Sower, Swords, Mage for Chalice, Drifter) to use.

I am not saying that my suggestion with Signets is right, but somehow the mana count is wrong. Just look at it from a neutral position: 21.5 Mana sources and a curve way higher than any other deck in the format. This may be the reason why the deck shows so little Top8 results now. Of course it is possible to win on 5 cards but it is just as well possible to mulligan to doom.

Joon
12-29-2008, 08:18 AM
Signets sounds...interesting to say at least. Maybe the Talisman cycle (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/2463516.html) from Mirrodin could see play. At least those won't force you to take Manaburn because you had to activate it with a Tomb or a City, but the those Talisman things hurt every time you tap it for colored mana. Dunno which is better or if anything of those deserves space.

@ Tao

What would you cut for additional fastmana/manafixer? I don't think cutting threats is the way to go, but everything else looks like not removable to me.

Kuma
12-29-2008, 10:14 AM
Point is, you mulled 4 times out of 14. That is not negligible at all (also, sample size etc).

In any case, saying "it's overrated because I ended up winning anyway" implies that the loss of the cards doesn't impact the chances at winning, which is clearly false.

(It might be less important than in other decks, because what FS basically aims at is an explosive start and then hopes that the opponent won't be able to catch up in time. Still, an explosive start with 6 or less cards does mean one less way to deal with their plan / reaction or to add pressure).

Obviously losing the cards hurts, but the great thing about Faerie Stompy is that Faerie Stompy's six card hands, and even a good number of five card hands still get the job done with aplomb. Faerie Stompy has numerous ways to recoup the card disadvantage (Trinket Mage, SoFI, SoLS, Mulldrifter, Sower, Glen Elendra Archmage, Chalice). My point is that these cards soften the impact of mulligans to the point where, in theory, mulligans are bad, but in actuality, their impact is rarely felt.

FWIW, I piloted Faerie Stompy to 13th out of 54 at The Meandeck Open yesterday, ending up 4-2. I mulled five times in fifteen games, but three of them were solid hands that I had to throw back because I knew what deck I was playing against and the seven card hands wouldn't have gotten the job done.

I'll probably write up a report, since I took notes.

Illissius
12-29-2008, 10:32 AM
21.5 Mana sources and a curve way higher than any other deck in the format.

You do have to take into account that 8 of those sources produce :2:. I don't think calling it 30 sources would be exactly right either, however. Don't know what the right way to count it is.

Relatedly, I goldfished Faerie Stompy a bunch yesterday and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the draws. Most hands were keepable or even awesome. As opposed to olden times when any time I tried a deck with a manabase like this, I drew nothing but hands with multiple Moxen, hands with no colored sources, hands with Moxen and no colored cards, hands with 1-2 Islands and expensive things, and so on. Not sure what this portends.

scrumdogg
12-29-2008, 12:03 PM
The deck mulligans way too often because it can't cast what it has in hand, in my experience. Upping the average CC of the deck does not help with that. Furthermore, the deck often feels like an all or nothing proposition - which is scary given the amount of aggro-control played. If I wanted to go all or nothing, I would play combo... Team America having Sinkhole & Wasteland (which should be everywhere at GP Chicago given it's exposure at Worlds), Dreadstill and Threshold having more counters than we do, STP getting a functional reprint, etc etc. I almost always want to cast Chalice at one before I drop a threat. Playing the deck in a more controlling manner may not be conventional, but it hasn't felt wrong either. As such, I modified the list and have been running this (essentially) in testing for a while & in a 17 person tournament yesterday since the last sea Drake finally arrived Friday(five rounds, cut to Top 4 - which usually splits)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Academy Ruins (unsure on this, has been useful at times, usually for recurring Chalice)
10x Island
4x Chrome Mox

4x Sea Drake
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Trinket Mage
1x Sower of Temptation
2x Glen Elendra Archmage
2x Pestermite
4x Mulldrifter

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Force of Will
3x Sword of Light & Shadow
1x Sword of Fire & Ice (may be swapped with the 4th SOLAS in SB - SOLAS and has been so much better & more relevant for me, plus I prefer the 5 equipment model so far to the 6-7 equipment model)
1x Sigil of Distinction
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x EE
1x Pithing Needle - this has been the most controversial slot so far, especially given the lust this deck has for COTV @1. However, it keeps being relevant. It kept Jitte from killing me in the match up yesterday with Dragon Stompy (Game 3 admittedly but that could have been Game 1 just as easily), Belcher gets played in my meta (sometimes in multiples...), and it dropped on Top before I could drop COTV @1 versus a CB deck, which was relevant as he later blew up my Chalii with an EE. Could easily be the 5th Sword or 3rd Pestermite (or other relevant toolbox piece #1 or #2).

SB (atm)
4x Trinisphere
3x Back to Basics
3x Gilded Drake (almost always smaller than what is getting ganked - Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought, etc - plus I can recur with SOLAS)
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (was MD with 0x SoFI, added the SoFI to test, this replaced Pithing Needle #2)
3x In the Eye of Chaos (we have zero instants, go ahead and count the numbers in combo or any aggro-control deck - this essentially allows more trinisphere effects, creating a much higher possibility of getting and playing one Turn 1 or 2, and it pitches to FoW).

Round 1:
Poor bastard of a new player with a burn deck in which I open with Chalice at 1...on to game 2 shortly after dropping a sizeable flier & slapping a Sword upon it. SB -4 irrelevant toolbox pieces, +4 Trinisphere. Mulligan to 6 from a 1 land hand (will still happen...) into Turn 1 Chalice at 1...see also Game 1. Talk to him about building a relevant sideboard & welcome him to Legacy.

2-0 1-0

Round 2:
Get to play versus my friend Brendan (ebinsugewa) with Dragon Stompy. Hmm, haven't tested this perosnally yet, but the consensus is that it is favorable. Game 1 his opening explosion meets my FoW. My early beats plus stuff is not Force of Willed :tongue: Advantage me. SB -4 COTV, +1 Pithing Needle, +3 Gilded Drake. Game 2 His Turn 1 Arc Slogger does NOT meet FoW, advantage him... Game 3, his early Blood Moon does almost nothing, the same cannot be said for his early Gathan Raiders... Even worse is the Jitte. Fortunately I am able to trade my Gilded Drake for his Raiders and get a Pithing Needle for Jitte after he removes 4 counters and my Serendib. My Sea Drake and Gilded Drake collide and I am able to sneak in the remaining damage at 3 life. Whew.

2-1 2-0

Round 3:
Local player, more of a T2/Extended/PTQ player but has been coming to Legacy and doing quite well with his Reveillark deck. Silly amounts of recursion & utility and a number of combo finishes (Blasting Station, Altar of Dementia, fairly sure there is at least one more...)

Game 1 see me lead with a Turn 1 Sea Drake into STP. Yay. Turn 2 I draw the Trinket Mage (dammit) into a COTV at 1. I get in with a series of beats and land a Sword. Yet, despite this game going some time and me resoving at least 2 Mulldrifters (one hardcast) I see no Force of Wills, nor a second Trinket Mage for Crypt. He combos off the turn before I could kill him. SB -1 EE, +1 Pithing Needle. I get an early COTV 1 & COTV 2 but not enough pressure before he gets Harmonic Slivers (and recursion effects). I replay COTV and then draw a Needle...hmmm, mistake on my part, should have waited to hit two and drop a Needle. He combos in my face. Fortunately I have no worries about seeing this deck anywhere except my local shop.

0-2 2-1

Round 3:
Another burn player, this one much betterand running R/b with surprises. Game 1 sees him Duress Turn 1 & take the Chalice. D'oh! Several turns later I have the choice of dropping SOLAS or a 3cc critter. I drop the critter as I will be able to drop and equip the Sword in one turn. This was a mistake, as he played another Duress & yoinked the Sword. Fortunately, Trinket Maged Sigil for 4 after equipping ends things quickly. SB -1 EE, -1 Crypt, -1 Needle, -1 SoFI, -1 Sower of Temptation, -2 Pestermite, +4 Trinisphere, +3 In the Eye of Chaos. Game 2 sees CotV1 & CotV2 with beaters before he can get Shattering Spree...and I still end the game on 8...with him havng Price of Progress x2 in hand and me with two non-basics. Yay! This is the first game I have ever won in which PoP has resolved (he hit me in response to CotV2 with PoP #1)! Ever! That card has been my bane! Ahem, sorry, still gleeful about that...

2-0 3-1

Round 5:
Get paired down with Nate at 2-1-1 playing Ugr Dreadstill - good player, good deck, can't draw. Bonus, I need to test anyway :cool:

Game 1 sees us chip back & forth countering relevant stuff (my initial CotV, his initial Dreadnought when he mistakenly taps 3 mana, telegraphing Trickbind) and my running out beaters. He plays Dreadnought #2, I play Sower of Temptation. Game 2...SB, I definitely need to test this more as I have too many cards I brought in - which is a problem only in the sense of what to board out... I think I added 9 cards, and eventually took out a Sea Drake as the 9th... He gets me to 10 with Factory Beats before everything gums up 4 Trinket Mages on the table between us (one of mine is wearing a Sigil with two counters on it). Here I make a mistake & respond to the goading of the judge (friends can be a real trial at times, especially in a local environment where fun is as large a factor as 'serious Magic'). The judge frequently gives me grief about going to time (regardless of what I play...) and winning the game as opposed to not losing the game. So I attempt to win the game by dropping a Sea Drake...which Nate follows with an EE for 3...I R a dumbass... No excuse, although knowing that I could draw in did not help my mental focus, but if I expect to be successful at a higher level I need to continue improving this aspect of my game. He gets another EE for zero, wiping out my Cotv1 & CotV2 (uh oh) which lets him drop a Dreadnought but also allows me to drop a Gilded Drake. Next turn he drops a rather large Tarmogoyf. It still would have worked in my favor had he not gotten the Echoing Truth on his Dreadnought and swung for the win on Turn 4 of extra turns...mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa

1-1 3-1-1 - make Top 4 and we split (me, Belcher, UGW Threshold and the winner of Reveillark/Goblins, whoever that was....).

Testing is neither complete nor comprehensive yet, but I am extremely pleased with how the deck is working so far. The mulligan rate has dropped significantly and with 24 mana sources, I can play almost as a control deck if need be. I expect GP Chicago to have huge amounts of Team America, Dreadstill and Threshold given their quality, ease of play/acquisition for Extended players, and recent exposure to the broader Magic playing world. Given that combo will always show up (and I will get matched with it, like the 2 out of 3 Belcher decks at GP Philly...out of 500 players...that I faced in the first 4 rounds...). As such, I want a deck that has Force of Will and either Counter-Top or Chalice/Trinisphere. This deck (whatever version) seems like it could be the dagger at the heart of my expected metagame (plus it is a blast to play).

Tao
12-29-2008, 03:09 PM
Well, maybe you know better my experiences than I do. But I dont believe it. There are only two person in the world that know better what I think than me - my mother and my wife. You, my dear, are neither of them.

I tell you this - in my hands this deck plays better with 17 mana than with 18 or 19. I know jackshit if it is because threat/CotV/Fow/imprintable stuff/whatever-the-non-land-crap density. Maybe it is rather my play skill than the deck, what has improved, but as long as I win games, I dont care.

On your Signet obsession - and what shall we discuss? Know what? Take out Drakes, Efreeti, Swords and stuff and ram into the deck more Islands, Signets, Felwar Stones and Thran Dynamo.

You seem to be confusing something. You made a strictly wrong statement and thus I call the statement stupid. I call the statement stupid, not you personally, and not your wife or mother or president.

It is not about your personal experience. Saying "I got unshakable opinion that taking out land and adding cc4 creature helped me to avoid mana screw" is like saying "Due to my personal experience I got the unshakable opinion that a D6 rolls higher than a D8".

And I am not obsessed about Signets btw, they were just an idea. If you'd play more lands like Scrumdogg instead it is fine, too.

Tacosnape
12-29-2008, 03:28 PM
I haven't kept track of who bickered about what, but here's what I've got:

1. Signets are awful. I mean, really.

2. While it's wrong to say it's so all the time, you could make a legitimate point that in certain hands, specifically those with 1-2 Chrome Moxes, having 4CC blue cards would be more beneficial to your manabase than having Islands. That said, Islands are good and I'm pretty sure the right configuration is either 8-9 Islands and a Seat, or 9-10 Islands.

3. @Illissius: I think of :2: in Faerie Stompy as a color, only a color with the bonus side that you can pay two blue for instead. Meaning you're running eight sources to hit the :2:, and can function alright without it in a pinch. It also means your mana curve of everything with :2: in it is effectively dropped by one. (Since you really only need two mana sources, one blue and one :2:, to hit something that costs :2::u:).

This isn't an entirely accurate way to measure it either, as on several occasions you -will- be having to pay the two blue to hit the :2:. Just saying.

No_Life_No_Future
12-29-2008, 04:05 PM
Has Gathan Raiders been discussed?

It has some poor synergy with FOW, but its an awesome beater.

Tao
12-29-2008, 04:49 PM
With Efreet, Sea Drake, Trinket Mage and Pestermite the CC3 slotz is full to the brim and they are all better than Gathan Raiders because you don't get Hellbent as fast as in DS.

DuxDucis
12-29-2008, 04:56 PM
Has Gathan Raiders been discussed?

I would be concerned about the lack of evasion. Personally, I hardly ever find myself with no cards in hand, extra Chalices Moxes etc. In my mind a 3/3 with no evasion and no utility is a bad choice. Along with not pitching to FoW and being a terrible imprint on Chrome Mox.

I think there isn't much left to discuss.

Djinn
12-29-2008, 05:29 PM
Esperzoa
2u
Artifact Creature - Jellyfish Uncommon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, return an artifact you control to its owner's hand.
4/3

Same mana cost as Sea Drake, same p/t, it flies, pitches to FoW and all the alike. How bad is the drawback? I can see the deck getting more explosive starts with this guy tho the maindeck might have to be reconsidered as a whole (welcome back seat of the synod!)

(Directly taken from http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=143186)

rsaunder
12-29-2008, 06:20 PM
I don't think seat of the synod is worth running, even if it means gaining this guy. I don't like getting my U sources wasted, and with B2B in the board, it seems weak.

georgjorge
12-29-2008, 06:26 PM
Sadly, not imprintable on Chrome Mox :frown: .

But I think it's one of the most interesting creature for the deck from the last sets. Not something you'd want to drop on turn one or two, but from turn three onwards seems good, at least with Seats in the deck.

Kuma
12-29-2008, 07:23 PM
Why are we excited about this card again?

It's useless if you have no other artifacts, and even if you do, why would you want to put them back in your hand? We want our Chalices on the board, not in our hand. Sometimes we like to have them set at a number other than zero.

Shocking!

Once in a while, I like tapping my Chrome Moxen for mana. Just saying...

And when I control no artifacts, I like attacking with my creatures.

Jeez, just because it's a 4/3 flier for 2U doesn't mean it has to be considered.

EternalDragon09
12-30-2008, 02:02 AM
i just put together a list of FS i was looking for some feed-back on it.
Beaters 18
4 sea drake
4 cloud of faeries
4 serendib efreet
3 pestermite
3 trinket mage

Spells 21
4 Force of will
2 misdirection
4 chalice of the void
4 sword of fire/ice
2 umezawa's jitte
1 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt
3 thirst for knowledge

Land 21
4 chrome mox
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
7 island
2 seat of the synod

Dr. DOOM
12-30-2008, 03:42 AM
This Esperzoa looks very tempting, but I see no possibilities for this in FS.

Dr. DOOM
12-30-2008, 03:57 AM
i just put together a list of FS i was looking for some feed-back on it.
Beaters 18
4 sea drake
4 cloud of faeries
4 serendib efreet
3 pestermite
3 trinket mage

Spells 21
4 Force of will
2 misdirection
4 chalice of the void
4 sword of fire/ice
2 umezawa's jitte
1 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt
3 thirst for knowledge

Land 21
4 chrome mox
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
7 island
2 seat of the synod

Misdirection maindeck and Tormod's crypt main, why? If you take them out you can run Sower of Temptation. (stealing tombstalker, goyf, dreadnought, pit dragon....)
No mulldrifters, but you are running cloud of faeries which can accelerate into hardcast drifters easily. That hurts a bit if you have a tomb in play, but it is still stronger than TFK!
Replace one seat for island, especially with only three T-mages.
Even better, with 3 T-mages, replace the other Seat of Synod too, for one Shoreline Ranger.

Eldariel
12-30-2008, 07:39 AM
The deck mulligans way too often because it can't cast what it has in hand, in my experience. Upping the average CC of the deck does not help with that. Furthermore, the deck often feels like an all or nothing proposition - which is scary given the amount of aggro-control played. If I wanted to go all or nothing, I would play combo... Team America having Sinkhole & Wasteland (which should be everywhere at GP Chicago given it's exposure at Worlds), Dreadstill and Threshold having more counters than we do, STP getting a functional reprint, etc etc. I almost always want to cast Chalice at one before I drop a threat. Playing the deck in a more controlling manner may not be conventional, but it hasn't felt wrong either.

That's how I by and large play too, assuming that the hand I kept isn't an all-in hand and that the opponent is playing removal (although against Standstill-decks, I always try to play a turn 1 creature for obvious reasons).

Anyways, I could see adding one more mana source. Two? I don't think I've seen the need for that. Whether the correct number is 22 or 24 is something I can't say; 22 has served me really well, but it seems like just about everyone else is having more mulligans than me. Upping the landcount slightly cuts the mulligan rate, but adds to the poor topdecks.

As for your list, has the MD Tormod's Crypt served you well? Very rarely feel like I'd need it G1 and my personal experience is that I'd hate drawing it when I don't need it more than I'd like having access to it when playing against Ichorid or Aggro Loam, especially since neither is that horrible a match to begin with (in fact, I'd like to play against Aggro Loam every round if possible).

Also, the sideboard choices seem odd. With Glen Elendra Archmage, combo hasn't been much of a problem in my experience and Trinisphere is a quite weak against anything else unless you can also deny opponent's mana sources (so I guess you need B2B to go with it), and is a horrible topdeck so siding it in weakens the midgame further. With the changing of the format, In The Eye of Chaos may warrant new testing, but when I first tried it, it just wasn't worth the mana and the card invested in it for the effect it provided.

scrumdogg
12-30-2008, 09:29 AM
That's how I by and large play too, assuming that the hand I kept isn't an all-in hand and that the opponent is playing removal (although against Standstill-decks, I always try to play a turn 1 creature for obvious reasons).

Anyways, I could see adding one more mana source. Two? I don't think I've seen the need for that. Whether the correct number is 22 or 24 is something I can't say; 22 has served me really well, but it seems like just about everyone else is having more mulligans than me. Upping the landcount slightly cuts the mulligan rate, but adds to the poor topdecks.

As for your list, has the MD Tormod's Crypt served you well? Very rarely feel like I'd need it G1 and my personal experience is that I'd hate drawing it when I don't need it more than I'd like having access to it when playing against Ichorid or Aggro Loam, especially since neither is that horrible a match to begin with (in fact, I'd like to play against Aggro Loam every round if possible).

Also, the sideboard choices seem odd. With Glen Elendra Archmage, combo hasn't been much of a problem in my experience and Trinisphere is a quite weak against anything else unless you can also deny opponent's mana sources (so I guess you need B2B to go with it), and is a horrible topdeck so siding it in weakens the midgame further. With the changing of the format, In The Eye of Chaos may warrant new testing, but when I first tried it, it just wasn't worth the mana and the card invested in it for the effect it provided.

Agreed that piling in versus a Standstill deck isn't a bad idea, although if I have a choice between Chalice at 1 and a critter, I'll still probably go CotV1 (unless it is a true Landstill build since they don't have Dreadnought). If I have to choose between slightly poorer topdecks or more mulliganning, I'll take my chances with the topdecks. From my perspective, getting that extra land draw more than makes up for consistently doing what I want and need Turn 1/2. Plus, Wasteland isn't as scary, B2B with 10 islands isn't as scary, and I enjoy not having to pamper my City of Traitors like Leona Helms' poodle. I have been able to continue land drops if I need to with only a slight setback.

It may be a function of the meta in which I play, but Crypt has been very good for me. I'm also experimenting with having Academy Ruins + useful artifacts to allow for more control as the game progresses. But even as a one shot, Crypt is good against many popular & successful archetypes. It won't kill Thresh or Team America (or Ichorid etc etc) but it will set them back...and this deck should be able to take advantage of that, no? If Relic didn't have a 1 CC I would run that, but that is horrible dis-synergy. I have considered more Crypts in the board, but haven't been able to justify them. perhaps I will try -4 Trinisphere, +2 Crypt, +1 Needle, +1 In the Eye of Chaos. Go ahead and count the number of instants in Team America, Dreadstill, Threshold, TES and convince me the effect isn't warranted, especially as it pitches to Force of Will and Chrome Mox. Trinisphere is part of my fear (and loathing) of combo. I hate playing against it, I hate the archetype, I hate not being able to do anything in a game of Magic. My thinking was to create an overload of spells that would guarantee a Turn 1/2 ability to do something brutish and nasty to combo...and probably follow it up with something else just as anti-social. It might be overkill, but if I overkill something, then I don't have to kill it again.... Trinisphere also has that effect versus Burn/Sligh/Goyf-Sligh. Pros - it can't be REB'ed, cons - the not pitching/imprinting & getting shanked by Shattering Spree. I need to do more testing before I'm comfortable making assertive statements, but I would prefer to make combo (and certain select archetypes) overwhelmingly solid rather than somewhat positive, even at the cost of an optimized sideboard. A slightly favorable matchup can still be legitimately lost, and you can't afford many coin flip matches at a GP.

In regards to the new artifact flier, it certainly seems like it has potential. Probably not as a four-of regularly but it will allow for a budget version of the deck, which doesn't seem like a bad thing from my perspective. In fact, I plan on testing them in my 2x Pestermite slot as I find Pertermite to be the least desirable creature in the deck - but I didn't have a viable 3cc replacement and can't justify upping those slots to 4cc. I often have extra Chrome Mox when I play that would love to see play with these guys. An extra Chalice (not so likely, but it happens), my Crypt...or the Sigil that I play as well as my lone Seat of the Synod. Admittedly the Seat option has poor synergy with City of Traitors, but if the 4/3 flier is going to finish them (especially if equipped...) then I will make it work. The Equipoise-a-zoa thingy is also a critter I don't mind as much blocking with or saccing to an effect. Sometimes the effect will be beneficial, allowing you to recharge (or turbocharge) a Sigil, or pull back a Chalice, drop a Needle for example, and then replay Chalice, or play CotV zero then next turn replay it as CotV1 (versus Belcher type decks). I can also pull it back with not only SOLAS but Academy Ruins as well. In short, I see more potential than downside, although if I have to drop a T1 critter, it admittedly isn't as good as Sea Drake in traditional FS (but $156 cheaper a playset...).

Tacosnape
12-30-2008, 11:08 AM
Esperzoa has :u: in its casting cost, so it is blue and imprintable, isnt it?

Btw, as already mentioned - it would be funny with Tangle Wires... Trigger on the stack, return Wire, tap nothing, replay Wire (tap 3 mana), go, you tap 4 pieces...

Artifacts can't be imprinted on Chrome Mox as part of the text of Chrome Mox.

Esperzoa isn't going in this deck. There's no way it's even close to the other six.

Esperzoa will go in the Blue Affinity/FS hybrids that pop up from time to time, though. It's still not the right direction to take the deck. Once the newness and danger of cool things wears off? Esperzoa'll be right back in your trade binder.

Micron
12-30-2008, 11:08 AM
Esperzoa has :u: in its casting cost, so it is blue and imprintable, isnt it?

Btw, as already mentioned - it would be funny with Tangle Wires... Trigger on the stack, return Wire, tap nothing, replay Wire (tap 3 mana), go, you tap 4 pieces...

Nope, as Esperzoa is an artifact :frown:

Edit: too slow

Valtrix
12-30-2008, 11:12 AM
Nope, it's not imprintable because it's an artifact. Chrome mox says nonartifact, nonland. Mox doesn't care about casting cost so much, which has recently only become relevant with this newest block (and I guess ghostfire).

Esperozoa is simply not good enough. There's better cards for this deck, and really the drawback is huge. You can't afford replaying your artifacts all the time. You want to keep playing new cards. Perhaps if the stats were higher it'd be worth looking into, but I can't see any good way for faerie stompy to abuse this card, even in a budget version.

EDIT: Me too =(

Humphrey
12-30-2008, 11:46 AM
i thinkthis card needs testing. Chalice, Mox and Seat gives u 12 potential 0 cost artifacts for another very good beater

Tacosnape
12-30-2008, 11:52 AM
Man. I just totally owned all three of you. Never face me in a western-style shootout.

The Tangle Wire synergy is admittedly ridiculous. The downside of it though, aside from running the overrated Esperzoa (I don't call Tangle Wire overrated: if anything it's the reverse.) Sometimes your mana to cast it would be coming from Ancient Tomb. Which sucks when you're trying to cast anything repeatedly.

I will say this about Esperzoa: If nothing else, you can use the Chrome Mox you can't imprint him on to feed to him every turn. That said? That still sucks.

EDIT:

@Humphrey: Even if we had 20 artifacts, what makes you think this guy's better than any of our other six beaters?

Let's list all the reasons he's not.

1. He can't imprint on a Chrome Mox. Being able to select which threat you need the most is highly crucial in this deck. All the other six can.

2. He can't replace Trinket Mage, because Trinket Mage's ability is a large part of the deck's strength.

3. He can't replace Sea Drake, because Sea Drake's better.

4. He can't replace Pestermite, because Pestermite is Jesus with wings.

5. He can't replace Mulldrifter, because Mulldrifter's draw ability is irreplacable.

6. He can't replace Sower of Temptation, because, dear god, have you played with that card?

7. That leaves Serendib Efreet, who is arguably the worst of our six. A :2::u: for 3/4 flyer who costs you 1 life a turn, which can sometimes be an actual price in this deck, versus a :2::u: for 4/3 flyer who falls under the "Why you shouldn't play Covetous Dragon in Dragon Stompy" logic of that he's nothing more than a bad blocker if you don't have another artifact for any reason whatsoever, which can and does happen.

8. Oh. And he's also competing with Glen Elendra Archmage, who might be the best creature that can't crack maindeck lists since Meddling Mage.

Arsenal
12-30-2008, 11:56 AM
But you need to have all of them in play at all times. Once I get a CotV @ 1 out, I'll very rarely ever want to get it off the table. Same goes for Chrome Mox. True, you could play a naked Chrome Mox, just for Esperzoa food, but that seems rather conditional and weak. Running basic lands > not running basic lands. 1 Seat of the Synod as a Trinket Mage target, sure. 4 of them? No thanks. Especially not with B2B in our own sideboard.

Illissius
12-30-2008, 12:06 PM
Someone tell me more about why Sword of Light and Shadow is good. It looks slow and clumsy, and doesn't pitch to Chrome Mox (or Force). I'd be awfully tempted to cut it for more copies of Sower (and/or Pestermite, depending on which ones you don't already have a full set of).

Also, Trinisphere looks really strong against Dreadstill, Goyf Sligh, and Storm, even with the Force of Will nombo. Am I wrong?

Arsenal
12-30-2008, 12:08 PM
SoLS offers an out versus control that countered/Disked/Wrathed your army away. It also gains life, which may or may not be important sometimes (mutiple Ancient Tomb + FoW lifeloss sucks sometimes). It also combos nicely with Mulldrifter, and it mitigates regularly played discard strategies.

And it allows protection from Tombstalker, which is becoming more relevant all the time.

Valtrix
12-30-2008, 12:35 PM
Yeah, really I think the lifegain is the biggest attraction to it, for me at least. THe lifegain becomes really relevant with how much the deck has to hurt itself, and suddenly when you start gaining 3 life a turn your opponent's creatures don't seem like such a big threat. Pro white/black is also the most relevant against creature removal, since that's what the majority of it does. In addition, even if you can only get back one threat, that part of the ability is really good as well.

Are you wondering about running equipment in general? That I wouldn't be able to say so much, but the equipment really adds to any threat that gets on the board and is worth running over another threat.

I'm not sure about the trinisphere issue. At best it's sideboard material because trinisphere + force = not good. I'm not sure what the matchups against those decks are to begin with (not good?)

Humphrey
12-30-2008, 12:50 PM
Im not a friend of sower, since its casting cost made it unplayable to me or it diied to fast to be useful. also i never tried pestermite and in my opinion more dmg is better than some tricks.

scrumdogg
12-30-2008, 12:59 PM
Someone tell me more about why Sword of Light and Shadow is good. It looks slow and clumsy, and doesn't pitch to Chrome Mox (or Force). I'd be awfully tempted to cut it for more copies of Sower (and/or Pestermite, depending on which ones you don't already have a full set of).

Also, Trinisphere looks really strong against Dreadstill, Goyf Sligh, and Storm, even with the Force of Will nombo. Am I wrong?

Before Mulldrifter, SOLAS was respectable, but the organic card draw on SoFI was probably better. Post-Mulldrifter, however, and especialy since the addition of Sower and Glen Elendra the advantage you gain is ridiculous. The lifegain is quite nice even if the opponent is not actively smacking us, we do that heavily to ourselves, this helps mitigate that problem. Then there is the issue of Tombstalker, Snuff Out, STP etc. Your opponent can still get your critter, if they have the effect in hand & ready to play, but you determine when they use the effect or they lose the ability to do so. Making your opponent play the game as you dictate, when you dictate, is winning strategy in every game ever invented. And SOLAS on any different creature then effectively negates a Snuff Out or a trade in combat or Wrath/Disk as previously mentioned or heavy discard hitting you pre-Chalice. Sower without SOLAS is much more situational, while it does eat a spell/resource getting shanked, it dies to almost everything and can't attack or block much of the time for fear of losing it's initial benefit. Sower with SOLAS keeps coming back and messing up life for your opponent (as does Glen Elendra for a soft-lock of sorts and Mulldrifter for ridiculous card draw).

In my experience Trinisphere is very strong against those decks, especially as part of suite of disruption pieces. It does hate to see Shattering Spree, though, and it doesn't pitch to FoW, meaning that I should truly test ITEOC #4 over Trinisphere #4 (including in tournaments...just as soon as I acquire ITEOC #4...). I'm unconcerned about the FoW nonbo for several reasons. First, dropping a Trinisphere obviates the immediate need for a FoW as it stops most of what we would be using FoW for in the first place (or delaying it significantly). Secondly, if we have the mana to play Trinisphere, then as soon as we drop a threat (assuming we haven't already done so) then we have the mana to use FoW and pay :3: , getting the best of both worlds.

Tacosnape
12-30-2008, 02:13 PM
Someone tell me more about why Sword of Light and Shadow is good. It looks slow and clumsy, and doesn't pitch to Chrome Mox (or Force). I'd be awfully tempted to cut it for more copies of Sower (and/or Pestermite, depending on which ones you don't already have a full set of).


In a vacuum, Sword of Light and Shadow isn't any good. In this deck? It totally is. Seriously. I was stunned when I started playing it to realize how well it fit.

Lifegain is crucial in a deck with four Tombs, four Forces, and four guys that ping you for one a turn, especially in a deck that dictates the pace of damage races. Your guys almost all fly, so you control when it becomes a battle of trading all-in swings versus leaving blockers back.

Protection from White and Black equates to protection from most removal. Swords to Plowshares, Shriekmaw, etc. The +2/+2 is nice, as it makes your mid-sized threats actually capable of hanging.

The creature recursion ability is fantastic, though. You can do this on evoked Mulldrifters, but it'll also grab you a Sower back when you need one. And what's highly underrated and overlooked is doing this on Pestermites. Getting back a Pestermite allows you to fend off a ridiculous onslaught by dropping it out and tapping an attacker, then having it around to chump a second attacker, then get it back next turn and repeat. Combine that with the lifegain ability and very little outdoes SOLS in the damage race department.

Tacosnape
12-31-2008, 11:21 AM
I think the other reason that the Swords outshine Jitte and outshine pretty much everything ever in this deck is that so many of your threats have evasion. SOFI and SOLS are weak in decks without evasion, as you're required to get a hit off to get the perfect setup. Jitte, however, still gets its counters when your guy blocks or gets blocked. Since blocking and getting blocked don't actually happen all that much in FS compared to all other creature decks? The Swords shine even more by comparison.

Xenocide
01-01-2009, 12:44 PM
For those few of you that understand czech. Hope you enjoy it :tongue: (http://www.cmus.cz/dnn/MagictheGatheringCMUScz/tabid/36/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/602/Faerie-Stompy.aspx)

For those of you that understand "funny" english:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cmus.cz%2Fdnn%2FMagictheGatheringCMUScz%2Ftabid%2F36%2FarticleType%2FArticleView%2FarticleId%2F602%2FFaerie-Stompy.aspx&sl=cs&tl=en

Illissius
01-01-2009, 03:01 PM
Okay, so these are some good arguments for Sword of Light and Shadow in a vacuum (in addition, for some reason I was previously under the impression that it only gained two life to mirror the other Sword, so finding out that it's actually three also helps). So the next question is how the various equipment compare and how much of them to run total. I take it that SoLS is better than Jitte, going by the post above, and worse than SoFI, by the fact that most lists run more of the latter than the former. I also assume that one of the reasons old lists ran so much equipment is because there weren't enough good threats, yet you still had to run 60 cards. These days, though, there's no shortage of them. Up to what point are more Swords better than more threats? I mean, Dragon Stompy generally runs 0-2 equipment. Granted, their creatures are more threatening on their own than ours, but still. I think my main gripe with the equipment is that they're both slow / clumsy and artifacts, meaning often enough they're the card you'd most like to pitch to Chrome Mox and you can't. This is annoying. And it gets worse the more equipment you run, because odds are you'll want to get rid of Sword #2 a lot worse than if you only draw a single copy. Regardless, if you start from a base of four Swords of Fire and Ice, a Sigil, and four of each Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, Pestermite, Sower of Temptation, and Mulldrifter, what would you cut to fit in Swords of Light and Shadow? I had assumed it was some combination of Pestermite and Sower, but going by Taco's previous post, if the worst creature in the deck is actually Serendib Efreet, would you cut some of those instead?

Captain Hammer
01-01-2009, 08:53 PM
Has any thought been given to using Powder Keg in the board to blow up Factories, Dreadnoughts, Mongeese, Confidants and Goyfs all day long?

That can be quite handy especially since it doesn't effect any of you own creatures, and it can kill multiple creatures at once against hoarde decks.

It's the best board option that F. Stompy has against Affinity, Elves, Eva Green and even Goblins to some degree.

And it can played turn one off an ancient tomb if you don't have a Chrome Mox handy, (or turn one off an island + mox if you don't have an ancient tomb handy).

If you don't think it works, please explain why.

scrumdogg
01-02-2009, 09:52 AM
Okay, so these are some good arguments for Sword of Light and Shadow in a vacuum (in addition, for some reason I was previously under the impression that it only gained two life to mirror the other Sword, so finding out that it's actually three also helps). So the next question is how the various equipment compare and how much of them to run total. I take it that SoLS is better than Jitte, going by the post above, and worse than SoFI, by the fact that most lists run more of the latter than the former. I also assume that one of the reasons old lists ran so much equipment is because there weren't enough good threats, yet you still had to run 60 cards. These days, though, there's no shortage of them. Up to what point are more Swords better than more threats? I mean, Dragon Stompy generally runs 0-2 equipment. Granted, their creatures are more threatening on their own than ours, but still. I think my main gripe with the equipment is that they're both slow / clumsy and artifacts, meaning often enough they're the card you'd most like to pitch to Chrome Mox and you can't. This is annoying. And it gets worse the more equipment you run, because odds are you'll want to get rid of Sword #2 a lot worse than if you only draw a single copy. Regardless, if you start from a base of four Swords of Fire and Ice, a Sigil, and four of each Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, Pestermite, Sower of Temptation, and Mulldrifter, what would you cut to fit in Swords of Light and Shadow? I had assumed it was some combination of Pestermite and Sower, but going by Taco's previous post, if the worst creature in the deck is actually Serendib Efreet, would you cut some of those instead?

SOLAS has been tested (by some of us) and found to be strong with the more modern critter configuration. Both Swords are better than Jitte because they not only make our (mostly) small fliers larger & scarier, not only because evasion allows said fliers to get the damage effect out of the Sword in question (as you alluded to) but because it allows the deck to play CotV2 with no qualms or hesitation. Assuming SoFI is better than SOLAS because more people play it is sloppy thinking, however, as decks evolve all the time. Decks are either perfect or evolving (although, to be fair, I suppose they can stagnate as well...). New cards force the evolutionary process, which now means that instead of having to run seven equipment to make the sparse creature choices threatening, FS can now run more quality threats with a lower equipment count. You alluded to this as well and I believe that you are correct. I'm currently running five equipment slots with an extra Sword in the SB, which I may well drop. The other factor in a lower equipment decision would be the ability of Trinket Mage to now fetch a piece of equipment. One of the reasons I prefer SOLAS is the ability of Trinket Mage to fetch the initial backbreaker (usually Chalice), heroically throw himself in front of something & then get recurred by a SOLAS equipped critter. Lacking an initial SOLAS, a second Trinket Mage can find whichever is more devastating, the second Chalice (I play one @ 2 ASAP most of the time) or the Sigil for a quick kill.

I don't believe that your assumed base of four SoFI & four Sower is either accepted or optimal. Glen Elendra Archmage has been as good if not better than Sower in my testing and I have already addressed SOLAS versus SoFI. Cutting Serendib would be a mistake, if anything can get trimmed it is part of the 4cc grouping and/or Pestermite. Pestermite is the weakest creature in the deck in my opinion, even with Back to Basics in the sideboard. I'm not calling him bad, simply the weakest critter in the deck.

Illissius
01-02-2009, 11:00 AM
Assuming SoFI is better than SOLAS because more people play it is sloppy thinking

I wasn't assuming that SoFI is better than SoLS for this reason -- I was assuming that most Faerie Stompy pilots believe this to be so, which I think is adequately indicated by their choosing to play more copies of one card than the other. Same thing with Sower vs. Archmage -- I have seen many people run Sower maindeck, but very few of them Archmage. I am approaching this from the perspective of being inexpert with the deck and asking questions of everyone else so that I can better my understanding.

Obviously much of this depends on metagame -- you clearly prefer SoLS and Archmage against control decks, SoFI against Goblins and other red and/or small creature decks, and Sower against large creatures. It has been my impression, though, based on this thread, that the 'default' choice between Sower and Archmage is Sower, and that a metagame would need to have quite an exceptional amount of control and combo before playing Archmage maindeck over Sower becomes the correct choice; and that this balance is different between SoLS and SoFI, as SoLS sees plenty of maindeck play even where Archmage does not (which is likely because while Sower is better than Archmage against the big creatures portion of the metagame, this is by no means true of SoFI compared to SoLS). Of course, popular opinion could be wrong, and the consensus may have shifted, which is why I'm asking how people would handle the SoFI vs. SoLS split these days.

scrumdogg
01-02-2009, 01:42 PM
One of the questions becomes, how many 4cc & 5cc spells can the deck truly support? I'm not sure that 4x Mulldrifter and 4x 4cc can be reasonable accommodated. Another strike against a full playset of Sowers (although these can also be ledgered against Archmage) include inability to utilize early as anything but Force-bait or a Mox imprint. A specific concern that I have about Sower is the fragility & that if you do lose the Sower, they get their creature back. This a concern against many of the 'big creature' decks in the DTB/W section. CotV1 is the goal against many of them, but not a guarantee, which means that STP (as well as their cantrips and Brainstorms) remain a concern. EE being able to take out my Chalices (and many of my beaters and equipment in a 3 color build) is also a concern. Snuff Out ignores Chalice and is a point in favor of SOLAS, forcing them to have the card in hand & use it how you dictate. These concerns cover Dreadstill, Thresh models, and Team America, for many of the other decks, Sower suffers in comparison to Archmage. Neither does much versus Goblins, I would rather have Archmage versus Aggro-Loam and Landstill models (as I'm much more concerned with Deed/EE/DD/Seismic Assault/WoG than their critters) and against TES/ANT/FT etc whatever possible utility Archmage provides is more relevant than Sower. I would greatly prefer a permanent exchange of their fat creature for my 3/3 Gilded Drake after sideboarding in almost every 'big creature' situation.

Searching for consensus is laudable, but many of these changes have been fairly recent. Not only is it is more difficult to achieve consensus in times of transition, but the results can be skewed (by experimental data, by those resistant to change for whatever reason, by those with incomplete or unreliable data). This becomes further complicated in Legacy, with it's Balkan swamp of local metagames. I'm sure that an agreed upon list will re-emerge after months of larger tournaments...but not until well after GP Chicago has passed.

Captain Hammer
01-02-2009, 02:30 PM
The more recent lists seem to be playing a 3/3 split between the two Swords.

As for Sower vs. Glen Alara. I think there IS a consensus that Sower is the generally better option.

Sower is an aggressive card in a aggressive deck. It lets you swing for 7 damage the next turn for the win.

Glen Elandara is a very slow control card in an aggressive deck. It doesn't fit in quite as smoothly.

Tacosnape
01-02-2009, 02:57 PM
Okay, so these are some good arguments for Sword of Light and Shadow in a vacuum (in addition, for some reason I was previously under the impression that it only gained two life to mirror the other Sword, so finding out that it's actually three also helps). So the next question is how the various equipment compare and how much of them to run total. I take it that SoLS is better than Jitte, going by the post above, and worse than SoFI, by the fact that most lists run more of the latter than the former. I also assume that one of the reasons old lists ran so much equipment is because there weren't enough good threats, yet you still had to run 60 cards. These days, though, there's no shortage of them. Up to what point are more Swords better than more threats? I mean, Dragon Stompy generally runs 0-2 equipment. Granted, their creatures are more threatening on their own than ours, but still. I think my main gripe with the equipment is that they're both slow / clumsy and artifacts, meaning often enough they're the card you'd most like to pitch to Chrome Mox and you can't. This is annoying. And it gets worse the more equipment you run, because odds are you'll want to get rid of Sword #2 a lot worse than if you only draw a single copy. Regardless, if you start from a base of four Swords of Fire and Ice, a Sigil, and four of each Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, Pestermite, Sower of Temptation, and Mulldrifter, what would you cut to fit in Swords of Light and Shadow? I had assumed it was some combination of Pestermite and Sower, but going by Taco's previous post, if the worst creature in the deck is actually Serendib Efreet, would you cut some of those instead?

It's worth noting that for several reasons, equipment is better in this deck than it is in Dragon Stompy. For one thing, Dragon Stompy's creatures are very capable of singlehandedly ending a game very quickly. Ours aren't. Secondly, Dragon Stompy has no way to replenish its threat base other than topdecking more, meaning that its best way to compensate for a lack of threats is to run more threats, and thereby less equipment.

For Faerie Stompy, however, our guys are all sneaky and evasive, but not overly huge. Our equipment turns every threat we have except Trinket Mage into a legitimate option to go the distance pretty quickly.

What's more? In Faerie Stompy? 1 Creature + 1 Equipment causes more damage than 2 Creatures. Observe the Life Swings:

Sea Drake: 4 Power, 4 Life Swing.
Serendib Efreet: 3 Power, -1 damage per turn, 2 Life Swing.
Trinket Mage: 2 Power, 2 Life Swing
Sower of Temptation: 2 Power + Power of what it steals, 2 + X Life Swing.
Mulldrifter: 2 Power, 2 Life Swing
Pestermite: 2 Power, 2 Life Swing

So all of our creatures only net a Life Swing of 2 except the ever awesome Sea Drake. Now look at our equipment.

Sword of Fire and Ice: +2 power, +2 damage when it hits, 4 Life Swing.
Sword of Light and Shadow: +2 power, +3 life when it hits, 5 Life Swing.

This isn't counting the card draw, threat recursion, pinging, and protection that the equipments also provide. The point is that your equipment kills your opponents faster than your threats do. You just need a body to stick it on to go to work.


Has any thought been given to using Powder Keg in the board to blow up Factories, Dreadnoughts, Mongeese, Confidants and Goyfs all day long?

That can be quite handy especially since it doesn't effect any of you own creatures, and it can kill multiple creatures at once against hoarde decks.

It's the best board option that F. Stompy has against Affinity, Elves, Eva Green and even Goblins to some degree.

And it can played turn one off an ancient tomb if you don't have a Chrome Mox handy, (or turn one off an island + mox if you don't have an ancient tomb handy).

If you don't think it works, please explain why.

Because almost everything Powder Keg can do, the deck can already do in some other way. Engineered Explosives handles everything at the 1-cost and 0-cost slots. Confidants can be killed with SOFI or blocked with Chalice for 2. Tarmogoyfs can be stolen with Sower of Temptation, outraced with SOLS or SOFI, stalled out with Pestermite, or blocked with Chalice for 2. Granted, it would be decent against Affinity, but that's rarely worth it. Additional Sowers and Pithing Needle are your best bets here, as well as SOFI to pick off random Frogmites/Disciples/Whatevers.


The more recent lists seem to be playing a 3/3 split between the two Swords.

As for Sower vs. Glen Alara. I think there IS a consensus that Sower is the generally better option.

Sower is an aggressive card in a aggressive deck. It lets you swing for 7 damage the next turn for the win.

Glen Elandara is a very slow control card in an aggressive deck. It doesn't fit in quite as smoothly.

I think this is actually a fairly accurate description of exactly why Sower gets the maindeck slot and not Glen Elendra Archmage. In theory, FS is the aggro deck, and aggro decks don't like keeping mana open. And if you aren't keeping mana open, Glen Elendra's just a slightly resilient small flyer.

Dr. DOOM
01-05-2009, 11:12 AM
Sometimes, if the matchup requires it when the opponent is packing lots of removal, I take out one or two Serendibs and insert Glen Elendra Archmage.

Reason: Protect the cards that make the life swing: Sower, Drake, and the Swords

Tacosnape
01-05-2009, 11:24 AM
Sometimes, if the matchup requires it when the opponent is packing lots of removal, I take out one or two Serendibs and insert Glen Elendra Archmage.

Reason: Protect the cards that make the life swing: Sower, Drake, and the Swords

Which is probably fairly sensible. Serendib Efreet's not all that great in some matchups. Although in extreme control matchups, you want Sower out more than Serendib, because while Serendib's life swing in a damage race is only 2, in a damage-versus-irreversible board control scenario, it's still dealing three and your 1 damage isn't always relevant.

Glen Elendra Archmage is silly fun against Pernicious Deed packing decks, though. I've started running them in board after coming to the conclusion that I didn't like Jitte in board and I'm still not sold on Back to Basics but can't think of anything better.

Nightmare
01-05-2009, 11:28 AM
So, aside from all the discussion on which Sword to use,

Esperzoa is an auto-4 of, right?

Edit - Oh, I guess I missed that page. Oh well. Continue on discussing irrelevant stuff again.

Kuma
01-05-2009, 11:35 AM
I've been having a lot of trouble with 4-5 color Zoo, and I can't think of a good way to deal with it. I'm 0-5 against it, including a key loss in round one of the Meandeck Open (I had Chalices at one and two, and a SoLS equipped Trinket Mage when he topdecked a Shattering Spree and replicated it three times. Oh well...).

Looking at recent DTB data, there's a good chance that Zoo will be at GP Chicago in significant amounts, and I want to have a plan.

Chalice at one is our strongest play against Zoo, and Chalices at one and two is gg game one. The problem is that Zoo runs Shattering Spree/Smash to Smithereens/Krosan Grip or all three in the sideboard. The other huge problem we have is that Ancient Tomb damage combined with their beaters and burn is too much damage to deal with.

Here's my list for reference:



// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
9 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [P2] Sea Drake
4 [AN] Serendib Efreet
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [LRW] Pestermite
1 [SC] Shoreline Ranger

// Spells
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics

I thought about cutting a Sower and a Propaganda for two Umezawa's Jitte to offset some of the life loss, but with Dreadstill's prevalence, I really want access to four Sowers. I'd cut the Propagandas, but I'm worried about the Goblin and Ichorid matchups. I love having three Glen Elendra Archmage, but the third one is a luxury.

What would you guys do against Zoo/Burn?

Eldariel
01-05-2009, 11:42 AM
I wouldn't still play Propagandas since they pretty much suck across the boards. I've been saying it for a few months, but for some reason they're being adopted universally.

I simply go for the beatdown against Zoo. If they pack Shattering Spree, you don't want to rely on Chalice to win; use it to buy time and force them to waste their spells while you waste their heads. The aggro components of the deck are at the very least as important as the control components.

Spardantevil
01-05-2009, 12:38 PM
Esperzoa is an auto-4 of, right?

Not an auto 4-of, but the Flying Jellyfish is definitely worth a shot.

I'll be testing it as soon as the set goes out.

Kuma
01-05-2009, 02:55 PM
I wouldn't still play Propagandas since they pretty much suck across the boards. I've been saying it for a few months, but for some reason they're being adopted universally.

I simply go for the beatdown against Zoo. If they pack Shattering Spree, you don't want to rely on Chalice to win; use it to buy time and force them to waste their spells while you waste their heads. The aggro components of the deck are at the very least as important as the control components.


5c Zoo would very appreciate B2B, too... In combination with Silent Arbiter / Propaganda, if you play it, who knows..?

Propagandas don't do much to Zoo, and we have other options against Ichorid and EtW tokens. Maybe it's time to cut them. But what to replace them with?

The problem with simply being beatdown against Zoo is that you can't do it with an Ancient Tomb, which severely limits our speed and options. Our best bet is something like turn one Chalice turn two big beater off a City, but those hands are rare. The real problem comes in games two and three when the artifact removal comes in.

B2B seems like it could be good, but I don't think it's the answer we need. So far the best ideas I can come up with are Jitte and blue blasts, but I don't really like either.

Anyone have a better idea than Jitte and blue blasts?

Zoo has to be our worst matchup.

scrumdogg
01-06-2009, 11:21 AM
Chalice and Blue Blast don't play nicely together, unless that is a 1:1 swap, which seems bad. Also, what other decks would you truly want Blue Blasts for? B2B seems like it should be very good against Zoo - they are tight on mana, very low on basics (if they have any at all...), and they want to use their mana every turn. Combining Chalice, B2B (B@B) & FoW/Archmage with our aggro should make life as hard for them as they make it for us.

Tacosnape
01-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Is Chill worth investigating over Blue Blast, given the nature of wanting to Chal-1 against most things red?

scrumdogg
01-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Chill should be infinitely better than Blue Blasts but is it broad enough? Or are people positing a significant presence of Zoo/Burn/Sligh/Goyf Sligh for GP Chicago. If so, what factors do you believe will contribute to a huge showing of that contingent & why? Lastly, I am starting to test 3x Wipe Away as a sideboard option. I would certainly trade a Wipe Away to get my about to be Grudged/Spree'd Chalice back in my hand, but testing will show whether the card earns a slot. It is aimed more locally (Enchantress & Counter-Top specifically) but may have broader application.

Eldariel
01-06-2009, 12:39 PM
Is Chill worth investigating over Blue Blast, given the nature of wanting to Chal-1 against most things red?

My primary reason for BEB is to maximize answers to Joblin Lackey on the draw turn 1 ('cause that's the primary means for them to beat you; if Lackey doesn't connect, you tend to be golden), and to blast Aggro Loam's dudes. Chill is great in the opening hand, but it's kinda meh as a topdeck (unlike BEB) and doesn't answer those stupid Lackeys nor deal with Vials and all that.

I used to have Chill, but really, the primary red decks in the format are Aggro Loam and Goblins (and I suppose Goyf Sligh), and against Goblins, BEB is better and against Aggro Loam, it's about the same (turn 1 Chill is huge, but turn 3-4 Chill won't do a whole lot). The possible use against the other decks is just icing.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and BEB is a beating on Dragon Stompy, as they side out Chalices vs. you.

scrumdogg
01-06-2009, 01:12 PM
My primary reason for BEB is to maximize answers to Joblin Lackey on the draw turn 1 ('cause that's the primary means for them to beat you; if Lackey doesn't connect, you tend to be golden), and to blast Aggro Loam's dudes. Chill is great in the opening hand, but it's kinda meh as a topdeck (unlike BEB) and doesn't answer those stupid Lackeys nor deal with Vials and all that.

I used to have Chill, but really, the primary red decks in the format are Aggro Loam and Goblins (and I suppose Goyf Sligh), and against Goblins, BEB is better and against Aggro Loam, it's about the same (turn 1 Chill is huge, but turn 3-4 Chill won't do a whole lot). The possible use against the other decks is just icing.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and BEB is a beating on Dragon Stompy, as they side out Chalices vs. you.

No disagreement on Dragon Stompy, we both board out Chalices. That deck seems to see less and less play, however, and has disappeared for the most part locally. What is your plan versus Goblins? Board in the Blue Blasts for the one game where you are on the draw? Both games? Leave the Chalices in and simply set them at 2? I am most curious to get your insights as you have exponentially more time & skill invested in the deck than the rest of us. Also, would you consider updating the OP with either a modern decklist, either replacing the original list or better yet in addition to the original (since starting points have relevancy both historical & comparative)? I'm sure it would help as a reference point, especially for people new to the format/board/deck.

Eldariel
01-06-2009, 01:47 PM
I've been meaning to rewrite the OP for a while now. I've just been a tad busy. As for Blue Elemental Blasts, I only bring them in on the draw (for 3 Chalices, as it's rather weak on the draw; on the play, on the other hand, Chalice at 1 turn 1 is pretty much GG). If they play Weirdings and Tin Street, I'll leave two-three (depending on how much I have to bring in) Chalices in to cast one at 2 later.

I haven't done extensive testing vs. versions with Swords to Plowshares, so I'm not entirely sure if Chalice at 1 is good enough on the draw there, but generally, if you can kill the Lackey and get rid of the Vial, you're going to win. Also, since they play a relatively low amount of removal, Sower of Temptation is surprisingly good. Stealing Goblin Warbeefs and Gangbangers greatly weakens their board and gives you a blocker for Piledriver. The recent versions have sucky removal and generally have trouble killing Sower.

Tacosnape
01-06-2009, 02:47 PM
I sort of agree on all the Blue Elemental Hydroblast points. Just wanted to know if Chill had been looked at.

With more and more and more control decks leaning towards fast fat kill conditions (Goyf, Stalker, whatevs) and less actual removal, is it becoming more and more worthwhile to maindeck more than 2 Sower of Temptations? I'm really wanting to maindeck 3-4 and see where it goes, and I think I'm going to start testing this and cut down to three Serendibs.

Eldariel
01-06-2009, 02:57 PM
I've been maindecking 3 for god-knows-how-long and rarely been sorry to see them. Just saying.

3duece
01-06-2009, 07:26 PM
I think 3 sowers are more than warranted, but not over serendib. I cut a pestermite now as it's really the weakest creature we have.

4 sea drake
4 serendib efreet
4 mulldrifter
4 trinket mage
3 pestermite
3 sower of temptation

Tacosnape
01-07-2009, 06:51 PM
I've been maindecking 3 for god-knows-how-long and rarely been sorry to see them. Just saying.

What's your current creature configuration? Have you squeezed a full 23 in, or are you down like a Pestermite, or what?


I think 3 sowers are more than warranted, but not over serendib. I cut a pestermite now as it's really the weakest creature we have.

4 sea drake
4 serendib efreet
4 mulldrifter
4 trinket mage
3 pestermite
3 sower of temptation

That's fairly workable. I think I'd rather cut anything except a Sea Drake than a Pestermite, though.

Eldariel
01-07-2009, 07:10 PM
I've been using the config duece posted. I never went up to 4 'Mites in the first place; me likes high damage. Although lately I've been wanting Mites more to taprace Goyfs and Stalkers. Still, Serendib shrugs off bolts which is fairly huge.

JeroenC
01-07-2009, 07:26 PM
I'm also using the "4 of everything, 3 Mite, 3 Sower" config. I think that if you want to go up to 3 Sowers, you need to either drop a Mite or a Trinket Mage. I'd personally never even consider dropping Trinket Mage (until they print a Trinket Mage with flying) so I dropped a Mite. It might "taprace" as Eldariel says but as Sower steals the creatures you're trying to "taprace", I think you're getting a better effect this way.

Tacosnape
01-09-2009, 02:06 PM
I've been using the config duece posted. I never went up to 4 'Mites in the first place; me likes high damage. Although lately I've been wanting Mites more to taprace Goyfs and Stalkers. Still, Serendib shrugs off bolts which is fairly huge.

Tap-racing is why I've been loving the Pestermites. Plus I've randomly gotten tempo timewalks from using it as a Port, also. And surprise blocks from equipped guys can be lethal on races also. And mana acceleration. There are moments where I wonder why I don't just play 7 Pestermites and hope I don't get deckchecked.

Serendib shrugs off Bolt, sure, but so does Chalice of the Void. Serendib's the better clock against control and combo, though, and there are other situations where the 4 toughness is a house, so I think it's a tricky decision.

EDIT: Also, dropping a Trinket Mage is an interesting idea. Probably a bad one now that this deck can use two Chalice of the Voids in almost every single game it's in. But an interesting one nonetheless.

scrumdogg
01-10-2009, 09:44 PM
Just got back from Hadley Mox Emerald tournament, got 13th/47, 4-2 record. Full report to follow when my brain isn't too fried to transcribe my notes.... Had a blast playing the deck & both of my losses made Top 8 (one made Top 2...).

Eldariel
01-10-2009, 10:05 PM
Sounds like a story worth telling. Will be looking forward to reading about it. Have the extra lands served you well thus far, or have you found yourself flooded/drawing lands when you wish you'd be drawing business often?

scrumdogg
01-10-2009, 10:13 PM
Quick reply, so far the ratio of flood/draw extra lands to mulligans-for-inability-to-play-a-damn-thing has been extremely positive. Ironically, it has hurt the Chrome Moxes more than anything else as they have been less necessary after Turn 1/2, making them an even less desirable mid-game draw than before.

Spardantevil
01-11-2009, 06:06 PM
Hey guys! I top-eighted today at a 65 player tourney, losing in the semi-finals (4th place). A quick report :

List:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
1 [SC] Shoreline Ranger
3 [LRW] Mulldrifter
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
4 [P2] Sea Drake
4 [R] Serendib Efreet
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [SOA] Sigil of Distinction
1 [SOA] Relic of Progenitus

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 3 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte



Yeah, no MD needle, a Relic instead. Through my testings I found needle to be kind of useless in many matchups, whereas Relic was a godsend. Shuts Tarmo down, eats ichorid G1, kills Terravore, untreshes everything bad (nimble mongoose, mystic enforcer, cabal ritual and stuff). The only bad point I saw in getting needle out was Ravager, which is already a horrible MU (+ totally unplayed). So what the hell, let's try this shit out.

Oh and no Pestermite. I think she's bad. Never wanted any of my Cloud of Faeries to be a Pestermite.


1st round:

A girl who's been playing for a month only, easy match.

G1: I force a tourach then go CoF+Sofi, gg.
G2: I misdi a thoughtseize, then Cotv@1 and 2, SofI and draw lands for long time. She drops a Chalice @3.She has a dark confident into play so she's winning but I topdeck powerfish then swing FTW.

1/0


2nd round:

Tarmosligh, easy match

G1: Chalice @1 and CoF+sofi, he scoops.
G2: he mulls to 4, I keep a hand like: Cloud, Jitte,SoFI Chalice, city of traitors, powerfish, misdirection. I drop chalice@1 first turn, jitte on next turn, then cycle CoF which finds another one then I draw an island :/ Jitte the Cloud then gain some life, but tarmo+nacatl swing hard. I'm at 2, he flings the tarmogoyf to hit me for 4 -> misdi on the nacatl, GG.

2/0


3rd round:

Ichorid, hardcore match

G1: He goes off really strangely, hardcasting 2 Golgari Thug, 1 Narcomoeba and 1 Ichorid. But I just got colorscrewed, so he won.
G2: He empties his hand with LED, so I Trinket->tormod's T1, thinking I would win. He just topdecks a Breakthrough and goes off. Happily for me, he ends the game with 1 card in library, 21 zombie tokens, a Zealot in the grave. The last card was his last dread return -> I win :D
G3: He did the exact same thing as G2, but doesn't topdeck the breakthrough. Double Sea Drake powa \o/

3/0


4th round:

Aggro Loam, rape match.

G1: T1 Chalice @1, then T2 cloud of faeries + SoFI. He wishes for Hull Breach, I topdeck a second one. He EE @ 3, I topdeck a third one. He scoops.
G2: Chalice @2 T2. Then we both play nothing for some time, at some point I force a Crusher. Then just beat ftw.

4/0


5th round:

Rock, normal match, awful oponent.

G1: T1 island, on his T1 he seizes my SoFI, I topdeck SoLS then play CoF, play SoLS, equip it. In resp he swords it -> I Force, he scoops. I don't know how to call this in Shakespeare's language, in french we say "mauvais perdant". He says I'm a lucksack everytime I play something, very irritating guy.
G2: almost the same. Don't remember the game pretty well, I just know I made a good play which made me win. I'll post it if I remember it someday :p

5/0


6th round: ID for top 8 5/0/1
7th round: ID for top 8 5/0/2


Quarterfinals:

Ad Nauseam, easy game.

G1: I chalice @0 turn 1 then chalice @1 turn 3, he concedes.
G2: He mulls to 5, I keep an aggro hand, thinking that he was going to lose time to cast duress on me. And he did. Double Sea drake + SoFI, he miscounts damages and lost a turn sooner than what he thought.


Semi Finals:

Togless, tight game.

G1: I chalice @1 and 2, then we both went "draw go", me because I got colorscrewed, him because manascrewed. The he draws a fetch, and began to be hardcore with me (double pernicious deed and stuff like that), I'm out of the game.
G2: I mull to 6 for a middle hand, misdirect a counterspell, then draw every single equipment of the deck, a few lands, then lose.


+++:
-4th place
-relic is great
-no lose
-this perf qualified me to the French Legacy Championships, on next september.


---:
-semifinals match was bad. Meh. Doesn't matter.
-should've played moar Trinisphere.



Out of this result, I just want you to re-think about Cloud of Faeries. She litteraly made me win HALF of my games today, and I don't think it is underestimable. Chalice @2 T2 and T2 creature+equipment is above the awesome. To me, this is integrant part of the deck strenght.

And Relic instead of Needle. You guys should definitely test it. It's gold.

dahcmai
01-11-2009, 07:28 PM
Out of this result, I just want you to re-think about Cloud of Faeries. She litteraly made me win HALF of my games today, and I don't think it is underestimable. Chalice @2 T2 and T2 creature+equipment is above the awesome. To me, this is integrant part of the deck strenght.

You kind of argued against yourself there saying Chalice at 2 and Cloud of Faeries goes well together.


Anyway, I still like the pestermite a lot more. Tapping down people's lands and getting blockers that fly (Tombstalker namely) out of the way is well worth it for me to play it over the CoF. To each their own though.



I played a few games today with a U/G stax deck and I had to laugh as he continued to thrash me over and over with Ensnaring bridge. He'd use Intuition to get Academy Ruins, Crucible of Worlds, and Ensnaring Bridge. Cute trick. Between Trinisphere and random other disruption, Wastelands, Chalice at 0 to shut down my Chrome Moxes, and other annoyances, he'd get that stupid bridge in and eventually lock me out.

I feel dumb having to think about random people playing that card because aside from getting a Force of Will off at it, you're screwed. Really funny.

I found out that Faerie Stompy sure thrashes on Team America oddly enough. I expected to lose with all that disruption, but I kept pulling out of it over and over. Anyone else have that result or was it just my games?

Spardantevil
01-12-2009, 02:30 AM
T1 island
T2 city/tomb, cloud of faeries, chalice @2.

wolfstorm
01-12-2009, 03:59 AM
The only bad point I saw in getting needle out was Ravager, which is already a horrible MU (+ totally unplayed). So what the hell, let's try this shit out.



I actually got to play against Berserk Affinity the other day in a tournament and FS completely raped it, they just seemed to run out of gas and sower stealing master of etherium is pretty win.. other then that pestermite tapping double cranial plated things and chump blocking etc made the match easy. after the round we play tested some more and i went 5-0 against affinity.. though we had one close match with me beating him at 1 life.

coma
01-12-2009, 06:11 AM
@spardantevil :congratulations for result and for relic's idea . In this period tarmo and graveyard's link are everywhere.

What do you think about sigil of d. ? a decisve card is ?

bye bye

Spardantevil
01-12-2009, 06:52 AM
Wolfstorm: I have to admit I didn't test at all against ravager, because it's totally unplayed in France. It was just a speculation from me. But whatever, if the MU is already good, relic becomes even better =)


Coma: I went to this tournament with the idea to test 3 things:
- Relic over Needle?
- Ranger over 10th island?
- Sigil over 3rd Sword of Light and Shadow?

The relic question is a total yes to me.

The ranger question stays unanswered yet. I don't think we can say ranger>island or ranger<island. These cards are way too different to be compared imho. I guess I'll stay with ranger right now, because even if I kept drawing it all tourney and it never made me lose (even once with only 1 ancient tomb in play). The day someone stifles it, I guess I'll take aa second thought about it.

Sigil is definitely a yes, but I kind of miss SoLS n°3. Maybe I'll get a slot SB for it.

coma
01-12-2009, 07:59 AM
Thank you for answers . I'm aggre with you , but ranger is instead sinodo , I think ... and sigil is without skill or ability .
Whatever congrats jet.:smile:

Tacosnape
01-14-2009, 11:34 PM
Singleton Relic is interesting. I admit there are times it might be explorable versus the Needle. But Needle's so sexy from time to time. Relic cantrips off a City, though.

I will say this, though. Pestermite is not bad. Pestermite is probably the most underrated card in this deck. It's won me more games singlehandedly than any other card in the deck. I can't really sit here and say Cloud of Faeries sucks. But Pestermite is incredible.

I'm almost ridiculously tempted to try a build without Serendib Efreet, with both Pestermite and Cloud. Except then people would Plague for Faeries. Still, though.

Humphrey
01-15-2009, 01:24 PM
Id like to throw in my version of FS to brung the discussion forward :cool:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
6 [P2] Island (1)
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
3 [LRW] Mulldrifter
4 [P2] Sea Drake
4 [AN] Serendib Efreet
2 [LRW] Control Magic
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [PS] Rushing River

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [6E] Serenity

Arsenal
01-15-2009, 01:29 PM
OMG. I don't even know where to begin.

(1.) Choke sideboard while running Islands? WHY?

(2.) Magus of the Moon when you're running 14 nonbasic lands? WHY?

(3.) Serenity sideboard when you're running 14 artifacts, 4 of which we NEED for mana? WHY?

Humphrey
01-15-2009, 02:28 PM
1)Hehe, dont know how choke come into this. I edit it to normal SB
-4 choke +2 Sower +2 Rushing River

2) Magus is a house, specially with all the Nonbasics. No more Dmg, no more Sac or Return, after the first Rounds I need the Mana.

3) Serenity wrecks Stax and Affinity, some of the worst matchups I played against in my meta.

Arsenal
01-15-2009, 02:58 PM
1)Hehe, dont know how choke come into this. I edit it to normal SB
-4 choke +2 Sower +2 Rushing River

2) Magus is a house, specially with all the Nonbasics. No more Dmg, no more Sac or Return, after the first Rounds I need the Mana.

3) Serenity wrecks Stax and Affinity, some of the worst matchups I played against in my meta.

Why not run better beaters/threats + Back to Basics instead of Magus of the Moon?

Why are having a hard matchup versus Stax? They run tons of chaff in game 1, and you can usually push through an equipped threat through their Prison/Moat. I've never had too much trouble versus Stax as a Faerie Stompy and when I'm playing with Stax, I dislike seeing a Chalice/Tomb aggro deck across from me.

Kuma
01-15-2009, 03:51 PM
I've been thinking about Sigil of Distinction, and I'm going to try playing without it for a while. Most of the time when I play Trinket Mage, I'd rather have a Chalice, Needle, Crypt or even a Mox. I almost never keep it in post board, and there have only been one or two games where I've sided it out and wished I hadn't. Sigil is randomly awesome once in a while when you're mana flooded, but that's the only thing going for it.

Don't get me wrong it's a solid card, but it's easily the weakest slot in the deck. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your argument along with what you consider the weakest slot in the deck.

On a friend's suggestion I'm going to try -1 Mulldrifter -1 Sigil +2 Umezawa's Jitte to deal with Zoo, Burn, and the sometimes fatal Ancient Tomb damage. I'm not a huge fan of this change, but I'm 0-8 against Zoo and willing to try just about anything to avoid losing to it in the playoffs.

Captain Hammer
01-15-2009, 08:14 PM
I'm thinking Submerge would be a very good fit into this deck's sideboard.

Submerge is blue's Snuff Out. It buys massive tempo.

Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker can hurt this deck a lot. Goyf can be a pain, a fast Dreadnought is a big problem.

With every other deck playing green for Goyf, Submerge answers all these cards. Even bouncing back manlands is very nice.
Best of all, it's pretty much a removal spell for both Dreadnouth and Tombstalker and pretty much anything that hates bounce.

Tacosnape
01-15-2009, 08:16 PM
Ignoring the mindmelting that is 5C Faerie Stompy, let's hit some of the other points.

1. Arsenal's right. Stax isn't bad at all. Like one bit. Whoever wins the die roll in the match is going to be favored in the match, but you're more likely to steal the match losing the die roll than they are. Half of their stuff doesn't even affect you, you have Force for the few problem cards, and it's really awesome to do neat stuff like stealing a Magus of the Tabernacle with a Sower of Temptation and then kill it by not paying for it next turn.

2. How on god's green earth are you 0-8 against Zoo when you're designed to Chalice at 1 and 2?

3. While I agree that Submerge is pretty good and might just make my final sideboard list, how exactly does it help against Phyrexian Dreadnought? Are we hardcasting it or counting on Dreadstill to have green? It's also worth noting that on occasion this deck can have to play without an Island.

Captain Hammer
01-15-2009, 08:43 PM
Most builds of Dreadstill do play green. I would assume that if you're playing one of the few builds still around that don't play Goyfs, you wouldn't side it in.

But yes, I think paying even 4 mana to get rid of Dreadnought (permanently if they don't topdeck another Stifle) is worthwhile.

Kuma
01-15-2009, 08:54 PM
2. How on god's green earth are you 0-8 against Zoo when you're designed to Chalice at 1 and 2?

I'll admit there's a little bad luck and inexperience there, but it's not as simple as resolving a Chalice at one.

5c Zoo, or at least the lists in my meta run Shattering Spree, Smash to Smithereens, and Krosan Grip. Lightning Helix is a huge tempo swing, and burn in general is bad news, as our only creature that can survive it unequipped is Serendib. Ancient Tomb damage on top of their beats and burn kills us way too fast.

Chalice at one + Chalice at two is gg game one. However, the matchup goes to shit games two and three when the artifact hate comes in. Back to Basics works if you can catch them with their pants down, since they run zero basics, but that works better in theory than in practice.

I've had some close ones, though. Round one, game three at the Meandeck Open I had Chalices at one and two plus a SoLS equipped Trinket Mage vs his four lands. He topdecks Shattering Spree, replicates three times, and burns me out next turn.

About a week ago, I equipped a Serendib Efreet with a SoLS and a SoFI while the Zoo player was tapped out. I figured I had the game in the bag when I swung, but he Smashed the SoFI to Smithereens and Krosan Gripped the SoLS.

Maybe Submerge would be good. I've been toying with the idea, and I've tried everything else.

Captain Hammer
01-15-2009, 08:59 PM
If Zoo is problematic for you, I absoulte would be playing Submerge.

This deck is sorely lacking in any instant speed response during the combat/attack step.

I would also play Misdirection in the sideboard. Misdirecting their own Swords/Burn against their own creatures will win you tons of games.

Humphrey
01-16-2009, 01:50 AM
Why not run better beaters/threats + Back to Basics instead of Magus of the Moon?

I just replaced Trinket Mage with Magus of the Moon, also changed some Lands. 5C Lands like Gemstone Mine and Paradise have nice synergy with Sea Drake, also a higher Landcount (+Mox D) decrease mulligans. As I mentioned, Moon wins games on himself (5C Zoo ;)) and helps u keeping your Lands on the table.

Well SB Options depending on the meta you have, and with 5C you got a lot more options.

Captain Hammer
01-16-2009, 02:36 AM
You realize you can't play a single one of other your threats under a Magus right? :really:

You can try 5c Stompy if you want, but don't run Magus in it.

If you want to play Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon, play Dragon Stompy, simple as that.

Humphrey
01-16-2009, 03:51 AM
Well, just try it out.
Its funny to see people argueing against this build, instead of just copying the list into mws and play few games.
Sure I can play other threats, just need an Island or Mox.
Im playing this version for a time now and it works very well. Magus has won me a lot of games and is the mainreason why I went 5C, in fact I cant compare to Trinkettoolbox.

Taurelin
01-16-2009, 07:14 AM
Sure I can play other threats, just need an Island or Mox.

With only 6 Islands in the deck and no way to fetch them?



Well, just try it out.
Its funny to see people argueing against this build, instead of just copying the list into mws and play few games.

May I suggest a black splash for 4x Cosmic Horror (http://magiccards.info/4e/en/10.html)? Just try it out, adapt the list in mws and play a few games. :rolleyes:


Don't. You needn't eat crap to know that it tastes crappy.

Humphrey
01-16-2009, 09:06 AM
How old are you? :laugh:

Captain Hammer
01-16-2009, 09:20 AM
Fine, if every deck you play against plays 22 nonbasics, you absolutely should find a way to squeeze Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon into every single deck that you build and play including even the clearly monoblue decks.

It's just that's not the case where 99% of people play. Most every deck is smart enough to play basics and fetch them out early on anytime precisely because of Wastelands and Moon effects. Only really really dumb manabases like Team America neglect to play out with basics.

That's why completely crapping all over this decks manabase just to squeeze in Magus of the Moon seems bad to everyone that looks at your list. But hey, who knows, it might jsut work in your particular meta.

Humphrey
01-16-2009, 10:17 AM
Its just you underate the postive synergy with your nonbasics. With the standardbuild I often got the problem, that i need to sacrifice on city for another or i lost to much life with Tomb. In my build, u dont need to sac ur gemstones or return ur paradise also.

Also nobody think of Mooneffects in FS or with Force after a first turn countered Magus :D
And yes in my meta, Magus is very very strong, lots of multicolor Landstill and Thresh. Also Plague in the SB helps a lot against Gobbo (and sometimes Elves)

Arsenal
01-16-2009, 10:48 AM
Its just you underate the postive synergy with your nonbasics. With the standardbuild I often got the problem, that i need to sacrifice on city for another or i lost to much life with Tomb. In my build, u dont need to sac ur gemstones or return ur paradise also.

Also nobody think of Mooneffects in FS or with Force after a first turn countered Magus :D
And yes in my meta, Magus is very very strong, lots of multicolor Landstill and Thresh. Also Plague in the SB helps a lot against Gobbo (and sometimes Elves)

If you're that in love with Magus of the Moon, why not play Dragon Stompy? Dragon Stompy is much better suited to abuse Moon effects and can run up to 8 of them. Faerie Stompy + Magus of Moon (plus other random non-blue stuff) makes as much sense as Dragon Stompy + Force of Will. Seriously.

Humphrey
01-16-2009, 12:12 PM
DS sucks. My idea to go 5C was to improve the bad matchups standard FS has. All im losing is the Toolbox.

Arsenal
01-16-2009, 12:19 PM
DS sucks. My idea to go 5C was to improve the bad matchups standard FS has. All im losing is the Toolbox.

If your meta is nonbasic heavy (you claim lots of Thresh and Landstill), I don't understand how/why Dragon Stompy would suck. In fact, a nonbasic heavy meta is exactly the type of meta that Dragon Stompy should thrive in.

Phantom
01-16-2009, 02:07 PM
DS sucks. My idea to go 5C was to improve the bad matchups standard FS has. All im losing is the Toolbox.

I see. So you know Faerie Stompy better than the people who created it and play it all the time, and you also know Dragon Stompy better than the people who created it and play it all the time, and then have the balls to defend the anti synergies of an obviously horrible build on the former with the phrase "go try it on MWS", which is basically slang for "stop listening to what I'm saying".

Interesting.

Humphrey
01-16-2009, 02:38 PM
well, im playing FS for a year and a half now and its my main deck, so yes i can say i know this deck. and maybe even it looks crazy on paper it plays very well.
in fact, u play back2basics in the sb, which shutdown the nonbasics completly, so why is magus worse? u can still use ur lands and he can attack, but i think i dont have to mention that.

also maybe i doesnt say it clear. ds might be a fine deck, but it sucks for me. played it a few times and i prefer fs much more.

Captain Hammer
01-16-2009, 03:54 PM
To be fair, Dragon Stompy really could use some work to make it a little better. I have a perfectly good copy of the deck built and I hardly play it anymore because Dragon loses to both itself AND to random jank (as opposed to Fairie Stompy which only loses to itself but often eats random jank for breakfast).

Regardless, the whole playing 5 color lands just to splash Magus of the Moon is a janky idea at best. Something fun and casual to try, but to suggest that it's better than the standard build is blasphemy.

Phantom
01-16-2009, 04:49 PM
in fact, u play back2basics in the sb, which shutdown the nonbasics completly, so why is magus worse? u can still use ur lands and he can attack, but i think i dont have to mention that.


If you truly have played the deck for over a year how can you ask that question? Let's count the differences:

- FS has 10-ish islands, 4 Chrome Mox, and Pestermite synergy to get around B2B. Your deck has 6 islands, 4 Mox Diamond (which are iffy to count on with a whopping 20 lands being run) and no synergy.
- B2B is blue and can be pitched to FoW. Magus can't, which is awesome for a card that will often be useless.
- B2B is a sideboard card and thus is only played against decks that it will screw over worse than ours. Magus...well...
- To be fair, standard FS doesn't have the glorious synergy that is City of Traitors and Undiscovered Paradise.

Humphrey
01-17-2009, 03:02 AM
-land count is enough, trust me. i play this.. and i tried b2b before, it worked not that well for me. I mean, all u need is 3mana
-u cant pitch magus, thats right but u dont need to throw something blue into a chrome (which i also disliked), so it makes no difference at all. magus still can attack or block or sided out (which rarely happens)
-in the end trinket mage isnt much more efficient it think
-Paradise and City is bad, but it really rarely happens. usually u bounce the paradise with drake anyways, throw it into a mox or its a mountain. but im not absolutely happy with that, but there are not much 5c lands. City of Brass is dmg overkill.

but the discussion is still paperbased. im actually PLAYING this and its working. why would i post it, if its not?

Tacosnape
01-17-2009, 03:06 PM
So moving on to conversations that are actually worth having, I've been tinkering around with Submerge.

Here's where I keep landing with Submerge: In what matchups do you ever want it where you wouldn't want something else more, and what would you board it in for? Anyone familiar have an answer of some sort to this?

All I've got so far is that it's better than Sword of Light and Shadow against Elf Combo, and that it might be better than SOFI against black-ish decks running Goyf/Stalker/etc.

Jak
01-17-2009, 03:24 PM
Aggro Loam, TA, Thresh(?), Eva Green, Survival, and Elves. I think it is worth it in this deck considering it's free, handles a huge problem (Tombstalker), and can help by just allowing you to swing and return that Goyf back so you won't die.

KillemallCFH
01-17-2009, 04:31 PM
@Submerge: I think TA would be it's main purpose, which, as far as I can tell, is a pretty bad matchup.

Captain Hammer
01-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Tacoscape, what do you mean by SOFI or SOLS is usually better. Neither card is free, and neither removes threats, they only work as deterance if you're willing to hold back your own big equipped threat to serve as a blocker.

Submerge is blue's Snuff Out. It buys massive tempo.

Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker can hurt this deck a lot. Goyf can be a pain, a fast Dreadnought is a big problem.

With every other deck playing green for Goyf, Submerge answers all these cards. Even bouncing back manlands is very nice.
Best of all, it's pretty much a removal spell for both Dreadnouth and Tombstalker and pretty much anything that hates bounce.

Tacosnape
01-18-2009, 11:36 AM
@Submerge: I think TA would be it's main purpose, which, as far as I can tell, is a pretty bad matchup.

Ok, while I agree Submerge would be incredible in this matchup, I don't agree that it's a bad matchup by nature. I'm 3-1 against it so far, though I admit I need to test it more. But that said? Chalice for 1 shuts off a huge portion of their deck, and they don't really run any removal except for the ever obnoxious Snuff Out, which is a beast against all Chalice Aggro. So if you've ever got a Sower with a Force for backup, you can steal whatever guy they drop and cruise. Not to mention that getting down any of your flying threats with a Sword of Light and Shadow on it is close to game.

Granted, they'll win some by mana screwing you, but Submerge isn't necessarily going to fix this, as they can also just Sinkhole your Island if you don't get two and shut you off of it.



Tacoscape, what do you mean by SOFI or SOLS is usually better. Neither card is free, and neither removes threats, they only work as deterance if you're willing to hold back your own big equipped threat to serve as a blocker.

A. What on earth are you talking about? Because I didn't even say anything remotely similar to that. I actually listed two matchups where Submerge is better than the Swords.

B. Stop quoting yourself. We're aware of what you said so entirely recently and nobody really challenged it.

C. I still have yet to see a deck that runs both a land with the "Forest" type and a Phyrexian Dreadnought. Just saying.

KillemallCFH
01-18-2009, 01:36 PM
Ok, while I agree Submerge would be incredible in this matchup, I don't agree that it's a bad matchup by nature.Really? From my (admittedly insufficient) testing, it is pretty horrible. 4 Wasteland and 4 Sinkhole is really bad for this deck. On top of that Chalice at 1 isn't that great when it doesn't come down turn 1, as all their threats, removal, and LD dodge it. Chalice at 2 is pretty good against them, but it often comes down too slow to stop Sinkhole from ruining your day, and Tombstalker and Snuff Out, which are both cards the FS player is extremely unhappy to see, can still come down.

As far as the "Sower with Force backup" plan, TA runs 16 cards (FoW/Daze/Snuff Out/Stifle) that stop Sower, and you only run 3 Sower (maybe 4) plus 4 Force. Plus, just getting to 4 mana to play the Sower in the first place is rather difficult.
Granted, they'll win some by mana screwing you, but Submerge isn't necessarily going to fix this, as they can also just Sinkhole your Island if you don't get two and shut you off of it.This is true; I'm not sure Submerge is what this deck needs to fight TA (if, in fact, it even needs anything to fight it). If anyone else (i.e. Eldariel) has done any testing in this MU, I want to hear about it, as Taco and I clearly got different results.
C. I still have yet to see a deck that runs both a land with the "Forest" type and a Phyrexian Dreadnought. Just saying.Ugr is arguably the most popular color combination for Dreadstill, at least in Massachusetts.

Captain Hammer
01-18-2009, 02:17 PM
What on earth are you talking about? Because I didn't even say anything remotely similar to that. I actually listed two matchups where Submerge is better than the Swords.

Wait, so your statement that the only pro you've found to submerge was that it might be better than SOLS against combo elves and sometimes SOFI against black decks was meant to be a ringing endorsement. :laugh:

I thought you were being sarcastic.

georgjorge
01-18-2009, 05:46 PM
Trinisphere against TA ? Sounds bad with your own Force, but with them usually stalling at 2-3 lands, and 3Sphere working against Snuff Out, Daze, their own Forces etc, it should pretty much be a game winner.

sroncor1
01-18-2009, 06:46 PM
I played today to a 2-2 finish. I was rusty and had not played magic in nearly 5 months due to medical school, but I have to say that the deck holds up well against TA. I beat it and dreadstill and lost to dreadstill and thresh. Thresh was just one of those times when the deck craps out and you mull down to far. I did make two misplays when I lost to dreadstill, but that was on me not the deck. Submerge was a total house today though. Whenever I drew it I was happy to have it and the ability to play with the CB top engine was gold. I did drop the goblin cards from the board but I doubt I will ever remove the submerges. I will admit that my testing was against those decks in which it would have a big impact but goyfs are in every deck it seems. Anyway it was nice to see the deck still hold up well even though it had been collecting dust on my shelf. I may consider cutting the needle maindeck as I never really wanted it main. I guess I may want to play more but relic might be a better card in the current meta.

scrumdogg
01-19-2009, 10:44 AM
Really? From my (admittedly insufficient) testing, it is pretty horrible. 4 Wasteland and 4 Sinkhole is really bad for this deck. On top of that Chalice at 1 isn't that great when it doesn't come down turn 1, as all their threats, removal, and LD dodge it. Chalice at 2 is pretty good against them, but it often comes down too slow to stop Sinkhole from ruining your day, and Tombstalker and Snuff Out, which are both cards the FS player is extremely unhappy to see, can still come down.

As far as the "Sower with Force backup" plan, TA runs 16 cards (FoW/Daze/Snuff Out/Stifle) that stop Sower, and you only run 3 Sower (maybe 4) plus 4 Force. Plus, just getting to 4 mana to play the Sower in the first place is rather difficult.This is true; I'm not sure Submerge is what this deck needs to fight TA (if, in fact, it even needs anything to fight it). If anyone else (i.e. Eldariel) has done any testing in this MU, I want to hear about it, as Taco and I clearly got different results.Ugr is arguably the most popular color combination for Dreadstill, at least in Massachusetts.

Valid points all, but my testing (admittedly low volume to date) has been much closer to Taco's results. Of course, I run more land and SOLAS in my version as well as In The Eye of Chaos out of the board. making their 'free' spells anything but? Combos very well with Chalice & our own FoW (which is there to make sure Chalice, ITEOC or Sower/Gilded Drake land). I have broken down and concede that Sower is better than Glen Elendra, at least until Landstill makes a much greater presence felt (plus I just won an auction for 2 more Sower...) but I'm just as happy to side them out straight for the 3 Gilded Drake in my SB most games. Having the ability to have 6 critter-stealing flyers is nice, but I hate that I have to protect a 2/2 or give them their critter back.

Quick note on testing mods to my deck: I will be trying -1 Chrome Mox, +1 Mox Diamond, mostly for fetching with Trinket when A) I really need EE @ 2 B) times where I don't want to lose a blue card (almost always) but have an extra land (which happens fairly often with 20 land in the deck, surprisingly...>.>). I am hopeful that this will help in my abysmal 4c Thresh matchup as well as against Goyfs/Bob/CB/SotF...you get the picture... I am also going to be testing -1 Crypt, -2 last Pestermites +3 Esperzoa. Unsure how this will turn out, but a 4/3 flyer for :u: :2: with an insignificant drawback (for this deck) deserves to be tested. If it doesn't make the cut, fine, but it's in/exclusion should be data based, not hypothetical. The first mod will be tested in actual tournament play starting this week, the second will be MWS/live testing (not as intense as tournament testing) until Esperzoa is tourney legal.

Still trying to summon ambition to translate tournament notes but quick & dirty version:
Hadley:
Rd 1 versus teammate playing some meld between 4c Dreadstill & 4c Landstill (able to board loser to either end of spectrum depending on what he faced). Force through early Chalice both games 2-0
Rd 2 vs Ciccio playing 4c Thresh, lose the die roll, lose 0-2...this will become a recurring theme.
Rd 3 vs UGR Thresh (Mikeyflowers) 2-0, I have been very happy with the normal Thresh matchups...
Rd 4 vs (Vstheworld?) playing GBr SotF. Game 1 I get monkeystomped. Game 2 I trade my Drake for his Masticore, kill his Bob, he Big Game Hunters the Core. I have sufficient mana & we chip back & forth as I have Sigil in hand. He attacks me down to 5 with Drake (whew) and I cast Sigil for 7, slap it on a Mulldrifter and kill him. Game 3 I lock him out and beat him down.
Rd 5 vs ANT (second place guy) I mull to 3 Game 1 (I loaned him cards before the tourney...) and never see a FoW, a Chalice or a Trinket Mage. Not. One. Unsurprisingly he wins this game, although I kept a 3 land hand with the ability to draw an answer...and he did Ad Nauseum himself to 3 on Turn 2. Game 2 saw Chalice & ITEOC both land. Game 3 I kept a speculative hand & got punished (Force of Will & 2 Crypt plus lands & beater). Don't find another piece in time, he wins. Damn, Top 8 out of reach.
Rd 6 vs UWB Landstill. Uh oh...except I stabilize both games and kill him.

4-2 13th/47

The next day locally: Top 4 2-1-1 with the lost being to Ciccio playing 4c Thresh and losing the die roll, the draw was an ID with my son Rd 2 at 1-0 to maximize chances of making Top 4. He has been playing GR/b Aggro-Loam, we play for fun & I win 2-1 (the usual result in my testing so far). Don't remember the other 2 players but they weren't scrubs.

Yesterday locally: Top 4 3-1 with the loss being to Ciccio playing 4c Thresh and losing the die roll...gettin' sick of this tune yet? Gawd knows I am... but beating my son playing GRb Aggro-Loam 2-0, Sui Black 2-0, and GWB Goodstuff/Rock 2-1.

So in four tournaments this month I am undefeated...except to Ciccio & 4c Thresh and one ANT player who took 2nd/47...that seems acceptable to me... I would like suggestions from people who actually play the deck (you know who you are...and aren't, although the ignore function does wonders for me here as well...) and play it as a blue deck concerning 4c Thresh. My problem comes from my inability to land a Chalice at 1 and KEEP a Chalice at 1. Maindeck he runs 2x Trygon Predator (bastard) as well as Counter-Top and more removal than a Thresh deck should have (Bolt AND STP...). After boarding he gets KGrips as well, the results have been lopsided and discouraging... My current board (for what it's worth)
4x Wipe Away
3x In The Eye of Chaos
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Gilded Drake
3x Back to Basics

I have boarded a number of different card configuration in & out without appreciable success to date. I may just have to chalk this up to an autoloss (and hope to avoid it...) but I hate to do so. I would also like to play him and WIN a die roll, that would be thrilling...but I have lost 2 out of 3 games in matches where I went first Game 2 as well (although maybe if I can take Game 1 on the play and then lightning strikes him at some point in Game 3...).

Kuma
01-19-2009, 11:42 AM
I feel your pain, scrumdogg. There's a 4c Thresh player in my meta who runs 2x Trygon Predator maindeck, and I've yet to beat him with Faerie Stompy. I don't think it's unwinnable, but it's certainly unfavorable.

I've been running Submerge in my board for a few tournaments, but the only time I drew it I was at four life facing two 4/5 Tarmogoyfs. So I can't say much about it yet.

In the Eye of Chaos looks interesting. It's a ball-buster against storm, but we already destroy them. I'm like 7-0 against storm with Faerie Stompy. Seems good against Thresh as it makes Daze very difficult to cast and Force impossible to cast, but that cuts both ways. Seems good against Team America's free spells.

I'd love to try it out, but the problem is getting them.

scrumdogg
01-19-2009, 12:42 PM
Acquiring In The Eye of Chaos is a challenge, but that is why MOTL and junk rares to dealers exist :cool: . I have found storm combo to be more problematic than most people, so I definitely want more answers from the SB. Besides, we run a number of cards maindeck that don't shine at all versus storm combo, being able to swap Sowers & Swords for ITEOC & Crypts (maybe B2B versus FT) is a straight upgrade. As in any good sideboard, however, slots need to be as multi-functional as possible. ITEOC is gold versus storm combo and the decks you mentioned. Count the number of instants those decks as opposed to us: TA 23-25 us 4 (maybe slightly more after SB), Thresh & Dreadstill vary by build but anytime I can significantly impact over a quarter of their deck - I will take it. The Force of Will issue is a valid point but my primary role for FoW versus those decks is to force (pun intended) through my hate rather than stop their proactive spellcasting. As such I am expended by the time it lands. Also, with 20 lands & 4 Mox I have gotten to UU3, 1 life and blue card (and done it a helluva lot quicker than Mr. 16-17 lands including fetches....). Being able to make Krosan Grip cost :g: :5: is fantastic btw but the card does nothing to Trygon Predator....

JeroenC
01-25-2009, 02:32 PM
Faerie Mechanist
Artifact Creature - Faerie Artificer
Flying
When Faerie Mechanist comes into play, look at the top three cards of your library. You may reveal an artifact card from among them and put it in your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
2/2

After the entire Conflux spoiler is out, only this card and Esperzoa really appeal to me... Anybody have any opinions on this card?

Taurelin
01-25-2009, 02:35 PM
Faerie Mechanist


What is its mana-cost? 2U?

If so it is nice and might be a substitute for Trinket Mage.

b4r0n
01-25-2009, 02:58 PM
What is its mana-cost? 2U?

If so it is nice and might be a substitute for Trinket Mage.

Nope, 3U. And hence, likely unplayable. Esperzoa seems more interesting, but the drawback might be too difficult to handle.

Phantom
01-25-2009, 02:58 PM
It's :3::u: so it's slightly less interesting.


(Ninja'd)

bowvamp
01-25-2009, 03:02 PM
ME LIKEY! Faerie Mechanist looks perfect in welder survival. Unless that list is brought back, it's a meh card.

EDIT: 3U is horrible, it's unplayable.

Arsenal
01-26-2009, 09:14 AM
@ Edariel

You mentioned that you were considering/testing a singleton Cursed Scroll in the sideboard, thinking it would help in the pure control matchup. Have you gotten any further in your testing/thought process?

Kuma
01-26-2009, 12:28 PM
My current Not Quite New decklist -

MD:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Island
1 Seat of the Synod

4 Pestermite
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Trinket Mage
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Mulldrifter (yeah, three only. Spare me of "omg paly four, it roxxorz!!" No, I got just enough of it, dont wanna see it before turn 3)
1 Shoreline Ranger (unsure of this, more like a mascot of the deck, but his flexibility is sometimes hailed.)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
1 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte (yeah, Jitte main. Kills gobos, faster than Swords, with all that LD in my meta I dont fear of collisions with CotV@2..)
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (only one? Fuck the lategame.)
0 Sigil of Distinction, EE, Crypt (Fuck the unreliable and conditional MD cards. The only thing I lack a bit is Sigil...)

4 Force of Will (I h8 it, but it's a must-have.)

SB:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod' Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus (I fear Goyfs. Like a lot. We have three Sowers against the main win-con of the format. I dont care if Relic interferes with CotV@1, because Pernicious_Deed.dec will take care of Chalices in some way or other..)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Hydroblast (no Loam in our meta, must be enough against Goblins, namely for those games when we bring back Chalices...)
2 Misdirection (mainly Eva America, also Burn..)
3 Back to Basics
2 Gilded Drake (unsure of it, but against LD and Krosan Grips are Sowers and Control Magics not fast enough and/or reliable. Stealing a Tombstalker = hawt.)
2 Glen Elendra Archmage (I would rather use three, but there is no place for the last one..)


Good to see someone agrees with me about Sigil. If your meta has become aggro I'd cut the Shoreline Ranger since he's unlikely to be cast and will only eat up your mana early.

The more I play Faerie Stompy, the more I realize that SoLS > SoFI in virtually every matchup. A notable exception to this is Goblins, so if you're running into a lot of the little green men, your equipment package seems fine.

SoLS is better for several reasons:

1) Protection from white and black is way better than protection from blue and red. Removal in this format is white and black. So are the creatures you have trouble swinging through. Don't get me wrong pro red is nice, but the +2/+2 on the swords puts all your creatures out of burn range except for Pestermite.

2) SoLS is a five point life total swing compared to SoFI's four. Yeah, SoLS only does two of that to your opponent, but you have to consider your life total against decks that can put pressure on you. Especially when you're dealing yourself Serendib, Force, and Ancient Tomb damage.

3) In the late game, a creature of your choice from the graveyard is better than a random card from the top of your deck. I know we're a "Stompy" deck, but in my experience Faerie Stompy often ends up playing the late game and that's where SoLS shines.

Right now, I'm running two SoFI and four SoLS with two Jitte in the board as my only equipment, and I believe the 2/4 split is correct for the metagame at large.

scrumdogg
01-26-2009, 02:02 PM
I used to play NQGw with two maindecked Predators mainly because of Dragon Stompy and Stax. I understand your pain, even though I have not met this beast when playing FS. (Not talking about mws..)

But dont forget that even with all of his shuffling and cantrips, opponent has only two or three of them. And with CotV you make his search engine much worse... SoFI also looks solid against guy, as you can swing through him and then switch the SoFI to blocker. (Not to mention that some of our guys stop Predator all day long: 4+4 Drakes and Efreets are >>> 2 Predators.

In your case I would try to maximize stealing aspect of the deck. Esp. with your SB I dont think that the opponent has some great advantage in Predator, as post side you have 6 ways to steal his Goyfs, Predators and Enforcers. Also imagine Predator equipped with SoFI forcing through Gilded Drake, dealing six and eating CB at the same time..

And the opponent is not going to play Predator before third turn, too. Maybe even turn 4-5 if we count Daze and/or missing land drop from his lands<18. By this time you must land big flier, some chumper for Goyf (Mage/Mite, the latter chumps the Predator too..) and with SoT/Gilded Drake you wait for a target to steal...

Btw, how are you satisfied with Gilded Drakes? I am thinking of them, but there is a problem with them being bigger than half of our creatures... I also dont like giving a creature to my opponent.

And do you find setting Eng. Plague post board on Drakes to be a problem? :eyebrow:

PS: I like the ITEOC thingy more and more. Time to count the number of instants in all the DTB..

ITEOC has been fine so far, doesn't come in against everybody but is very good against the decks I want help for. The Gilded Drake has also been working fine (but not spectacularly) for me, either providing for (6) steal critters effects or being able to swap 1:1 with the much more vulnerable Sowers. The plan to utilize the Wipe Aways and the Gildeds for silly advantage hasn't panned out yet, but the experiment is definitely a work in progress. If anything gets axed from the SB it will be the Wipe Aways as they don't play well with ITEOC and are rarely a primary inclusion. They haven't been as effective in my other plan either - bouncing a 1cc/2cc permanent that pisses me off but slipped in before CotV. Maybe the correct SB for Evolution Thresh is +3 Gilded, +3 B2B with some painful choices in what to remove, but the deck is a beating... Having it played by good players doesn't help either... This is one of the decks where I would love bring in the entire SB...but what to remove becomes the problem. (6) cards is probably the max, but which (6)? B2Bs + 3 Wipe Away? Wipe + ITEOC obviously doesn't work... ITEOCs + Gildeds? ITEOC + B2B? All 4 Wipe Aways & the 2 extra Crypts (not seriously, as this does nothing to alleviate any of the problems of Predator, Krosan Grip & Counter-Top)? Every Game 1 I have played against this I have lost the die roll, making it much more difficult to land a Chalice at 1 or a Trinket Mage (the only really relevant plays). Without CotV 1 any large creature I put down gets whacked at an inconvenient point in time (often in response to equipping...) as they play as much removal as I play large creatures (pre-equipping) while they have the cantrips & Top to dig. I'm hoping that the testing of Esperzoa goes well & helps push this imbalance back in my favor. In a way, always playing second is good, since it is like running with weights, if I ever get to run without the damn weights, I will be faster & stronger (and happier...).

scrumdogg
01-26-2009, 04:13 PM
The Wipe Aways are the attempt to re-use them without a combat trade, but with 3x SOLAS in the deck, I am far less concerned about recursion (except against that damn 4c Thresh deck....). Maybe Jittes in the SB are the answer so as to be able to create an equipment overload after boarding (a la original FS). The Jittes would have the benefit of being removal as well & being an anti-Jitte card obviously.

Kuma
01-26-2009, 04:38 PM
I agree on all your points about Swords, but I am really dissapointed with my results in the past weeks/months. The deck became very maladroit and due to all those cc5 creatures and cc3+2 equips, it works at the limit of its capacity. Every Wasteland or Sinkhole can ruin our day. I am coming back home. (Although I think that I will lack the inevitability and effectivness of the previous build in the late game..)

You're absolutely right. Wasteland and Sinkhole are Faerie Stompy's worst nightmares, and I believe this is largely unavoidable. Adding a single wasteable land to the manabase changes nothing. The only ways I've found to dodge this are to keep high land hands or run a four-pack of Pithing Needles between the main and side and drop them turn one naming Wasteland.

Also, a strong play vs. Tempo Thresh if you only have a Tomb or City plus an Island in play, and no land plus Mulldrifter in hand is to evoke the Mulldrifter to find land. It slows down the beats, but it helps ensure you can keep playing Magic.


Nice to hear about Gilded Drakes. I am going to try them. Have you thought about some recuring of them? (Or Trinket into Despotic Scepter.. :p)

This sounds interesting. Running a Despotic Scepter plus three Drakes in the board seems like it could be good. But do you really need all that stealing especially when part of it involves giving your opponent a potentially annoying 3/3 flier? Is this much better than Snakeform shenannigans? Then again, Gilded Drake, Despotic Scepter, and SoLS have amazing synergy, and Scepter has good synergy with Trinket Mage. There have also been times where I've wished I could kill a Serendib (minor point).

I've been happy with four Sowers. Just saying...


@ Esperzoa: Man, I really wish that card to be good. Twelve cc3 flying beaters... um-num!!

Me too. But he's terrible. He'll probably spend most of his time in your hand, and he doesn't imprint on Chrome Mox. The times where he'd be frustating would seem to outnumber the times where he's useful. Essentially it's a two card combo with minimal payout. If we're going to play combo, we'd be better served running Painter or Dreadnought.

I'd love to hear otherwise, but I don't think testing him is worth the time.

Other random thoughts:

- I've been trying a Relic of Progenitus in the board. So far it's been mediocre. Further testing is needed.

- I highly recommend three Glen-Elendra Archmage. That card is insane vs board control, which is our most troublesome archetype to deal with.

- Blue Blasts are bad. They aren't enough to swing matchups and there's the Chalice at one problem.

- I've been testing Submerge, but have limited data. I'm not sure if I'd rather have Misdirection or Submerge vs. Team America and others. I may run neither.

- Wipe Away seems too hard to cast, and I've never thought we really needed bounce.

Eldariel
01-26-2009, 08:21 PM
- Blue Blasts are bad. They aren't enough to swing matchups and there's the Chalice at one problem.

This is not true. Blue Blasts are limited, but for the job they play, they're the best option available. Blue Blasts have implications principally in two match-ups:
Goblins: On the draw, you can't really rely on Chalice at 1. Therefore, you need an alternative answer to their Lackey. This means you side any number of Chalices out for any number of BEBs. It's also a great way to counter Piles, Warbeefs, Matrons and all the other nonsense without having to deal with the CiPTs/Pro-Blue, but the principal reason for its inclusion is that you win the midgame, but to do that, you need to get there without being hit by a Lackey Gang Bang.

Aggro Loam: This here MU means you'll set your Chalice at 2. Each of their threats is a fucking Tank, but that doesn't make 'em any harder to destroy, meaning every card that can stop one of their threats is friggin' huge. Therefore, Blue Elemental Blasts are natural 1-mana answers to anything they do, countering/removing Seismic Assault, Countryside Crusher and being an additional counter for Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams, among others.

There are other match-ups, but those two are the reason I include them on my SB; both are common enough that I'd rather win them convincingly. Also, it can be brought in vs. Burn, where it will help you when you don't find Chalices (which is pretty much the only scenario where you need help anyways), RDW/Sligh (see above), and some combo-decks (if they run something red, it's most certainly better than a random creature).

scrumdogg
01-26-2009, 09:32 PM
And they keep Dragon Stompy from having a huge edge when they SB if they get REBs & Shattering Sprees & we get...bupkis? I lost to Dragon Stompy this weekend for that exact reason. I'll probably replace the Wipe Aways in the board with BEBs (again...) and see how they are. The fact that I can board them in against Belcher & some storm combo is also a bonus.

Eldariel
01-26-2009, 10:16 PM
And they keep Dragon Stompy from having a huge edge when they SB if they get REBs & Shattering Sprees & we get...bupkis? I lost to Dragon Stompy this weekend for that exact reason. I'll probably replace the Wipe Aways in the board with BEBs (again...) and see how they are. The fact that I can board them in against Belcher & some storm combo is also a bonus.

Yeah, and Dragon Stompy. I always forget to mention one of the decks BEB hits; really, it seems like a damn broad SB card to be honest. Whatever is said of Mountains' state in the format, they seem as plentiful as ever.

Kuma
01-27-2009, 04:38 PM
This is not true. Blue Blasts are limited, but for the job they play, they're the best option available. Blue Blasts have implications principally in two match-ups:
Goblins: On the draw, you can't really rely on Chalice at 1. Therefore, you need an alternative answer to their Lackey. This means you side any number of Chalices out for any number of BEBs. It's also a great way to counter Piles, Warbeefs, Matrons and all the other nonsense without having to deal with the CiPTs/Pro-Blue, but the principal reason for its inclusion is that you win the midgame, but to do that, you need to get there without being hit by a Lackey Gang Bang.

Goblins are extinct in my metagame and are on their way out of the metagame at large. Even so, we have FoW to deal with Goblin Lackey. We can also drop a creature turn one to block. I'd rather run something like Propaganda in the sideboard. Goblins doesn't have many ways to deal with Propaganda and it will slow them down enough to get to the mid game. Plus Propaganda is also useful vs EtW tokens and Ichorid Combo. Bottom line is that Goblins isn't a good matchup, and adding three blue blasts isn't going to change the percentages much. Especially if they're siding in Krosan Grip/Shattering Spree.


Aggro Loam: This here MU means you'll set your Chalice at 2. Each of their threats is a fucking Tank, but that doesn't make 'em any harder to destroy, meaning every card that can stop one of their threats is friggin' huge. Therefore, Blue Elemental Blasts are natural 1-mana answers to anything they do, countering/removing Seismic Assault, Countryside Crusher and being an additional counter for Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams, among others.

Blue blasts help against Aggro Loam, but this matchup isn't bad to begin with as long as you play tight. We've got Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard already, and Glen Elendra Archmage can be a bomb depending on their build. We've also got SoFI, Sower of Temptation, and Pestermite to swing tempo. I'm not sure why we need blue blasts on top of this. I'd run extra archmage or relics before blue blasts.


There are other match-ups, but those two are the reason I include them on my SB; both are common enough that I'd rather win them convincingly. Also, it can be brought in vs. Burn, where it will help you when you don't find Chalices (which is pretty much the only scenario where you need help anyways), RDW/Sligh (see above), and some combo-decks (if they run something red, it's most certainly better than a random creature).

Vs. Burn I mull into chalice or Trinket Mage unless I have a hand along the lines of turn one creature plus turn two sword and equip. Blue blasts are a minor band-aid. And we already destroy combo.


And they keep Dragon Stompy from having a huge edge when they SB if they get REBs & Shattering Sprees & we get...bupkis? I lost to Dragon Stompy this weekend for that exact reason. I'll probably replace the Wipe Aways in the board with BEBs (again...) and see how they are. The fact that I can board them in against Belcher & some storm combo is also a bonus.

Dragon Stompy is like our best matchup. The only deck Dragon Stompy would less like to see than Faerie Stompy is Enchantress. I haven't seen many lists with REB and Shattering Spree in the board, but even if they run those, we're still heavily favored. Their Chalices and moons hardly touch us, we run way more equipment, and our creatures fly over and generally outclass theirs. I don't think I've ever lost a best of three to Dragon Stompy. It hasn't ever really been close. Game one is almost an auto-win, and things don't change much games two and three.

Eldariel
01-27-2009, 09:16 PM
Goblins are extinct in my metagame and are on their way out of the metagame at large. Even so, we have FoW to deal with Goblin Lackey. We can also drop a creature turn one to block. I'd rather run something like Propaganda in the sideboard. Goblins doesn't have many ways to deal with Propaganda and it will slow them down enough to get to the mid game. Plus Propaganda is also useful vs EtW tokens and Ichorid Combo. Bottom line is that Goblins isn't a good matchup, and adding three blue blasts isn't going to change the percentages much. Especially if they're siding in Krosan Grip/Shattering Spree.

I beg to differ; as long as Lackey doesn't connect, we're just plain faster than Goblins. If they bring artifact removal in, that means they'll be casting that instead of Goblins so your beaters can take it home, and if they don't, your equipment can control the board. Either way, it's fine by me and our advantage. I haven't lost a match to Goblins in tournaments since...well, adding BEB to the SB. BEB cuts down the one thing we lose to, Lackey on the draw - reduces the need to mulligan for answers and so on. Propaganda is much more limited than BEB in my experience. First of all, vs. Goblins, it doesn't stop them from doing stupid crap with Lackey and dominating the board with SGC, Tinkerer and so on. Vs. anything else, it tends to be a turn that would be better spent playing a creature. Also, Propaganda can be gripped like most of our trumps; BEB has no such problem and thus deals with Lackey just fine. In fact, it's my preferred means of dealing with Lackey as it doesn't care about creature removal.

The sole exception is really Ichorid, so Propaganda hits Goblins and Ichorid, while BEB hits Goblins, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, TES, Belcher, Burn, RDW, etc. Propaganda isn't all that good vs. combo either; it stops them from winning via. EtW, sure, but it doesn't inconvenience them going off one bit. BEB can kill Shusher or counter Burning Wish or a Ritual. Also, EE deals with EtW and we already play a number of those. Additional EtW answers just seem redundant. So no Propaganda, BEB is better.


Blue blasts help against Aggro Loam, but this matchup isn't bad to begin with as long as you play tight. We've got Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard already, and Glen Elendra Archmage can be a bomb depending on their build. We've also got SoFI, Sower of Temptation, and Pestermite to swing tempo. I'm not sure why we need blue blasts on top of this. I'd run extra archmage or relics before blue blasts.

We don't need Blue Elemental Blasts, but the match-up isn't an autowin or anything. They can still just drop turn 2 Seismic Assault and blast your face out. They can drop a bunch of huge fattos, such as Countryside Crushers and Vores. Out of those, BEB answers the ones that are resilient to graveyard removal. Therefore, BEB improves the match-up further. The one thing we don't want to be doing is losing good match-ups. Ensuring that you win your good MUs is just as important as shoring up your bad ones.


Vs. Burn I mull into chalice or Trinket Mage unless I have a hand along the lines of turn one creature plus turn two sword and equip. Blue blasts are a minor band-aid. And we already destroy combo.

A hand with BEB, Force, beater and Jitte/SoLS is fine. BEB generally counters 4 points of damage. That means they need two more turns than normal. Also, it can remove Sulfuric Vortex which could otherwise stop our lifegain effects from taking it home. "Minor bandaid" hardly gives them enough credit, especially since we're talking about a one-mana spell that's easy to slip through always.


Dragon Stompy is like our best matchup. The only deck Dragon Stompy would less like to see than Faerie Stompy is Enchantress. I haven't seen many lists with REB and Shattering Spree in the board, but even if they run those, we're still heavily favored. Their Chalices and moons hardly touch us, we run way more equipment, and our creatures fly over and generally outclass theirs. I don't think I've ever lost a best of three to Dragon Stompy. It hasn't ever really been close. Game one is almost an auto-win, and things don't change much games two and three.

It's a good match-up, but by no means an autowin. They have that turn 1 Slogger, you don't have Force and that's pretty much all she wrote. Once again, BEB prevents us from losing to a good match-up. Dragon Stompy is very explosive and thus sometimes just wins. BEB cuts that just winning down in size. We do have our share of inconsistencies, let's not try to deny that.

That means we need to increase the amount of hands we can keep in any given match-up and BEB does that vs. a bunch of good, or decent matches. Basically, it serves to help us not lose to bad hands when we shouldn't be losing, and pre-empts a bunch of unnecessary mulligans. Also, it's worth noting that many of the aforementioned MUs bring in a large number of red artifact removal...and it just so happens BEB can be used to deal with it.

Sure, it only counters one copy of Spree or Grudge once, but that generally means they can only kill one target of their choice instead of two targets, meaning that the Chalice/Redundant Piece of Equipment is still around and they're still dead.

Kuma
01-28-2009, 06:57 PM
I beg to differ; as long as Lackey doesn't connect, we're just plain faster than Goblins. If they bring artifact removal in, that means they'll be casting that instead of Goblins so your beaters can take it home, and if they don't, your equipment can control the board. Either way, it's fine by me and our advantage. I haven't lost a match to Goblins in tournaments since...well, adding BEB to the SB. BEB cuts down the one thing we lose to, Lackey on the draw - reduces the need to mulligan for answers and so on.

Lackey on the draw is a huge problem, and BEB definitely helps with that. What's often a bigger problem is Rishadan Port and Wasteland. We're not faster than Goblins if they Waste or Port our Tombs and Cities. Pithing Needles stop Vial, Seige-Gang Commander, Ports, Tinkerers and Wastelands.

It's a little more complicated than "don't let Lackey hit you" but you probably knew that. Still, you are right that BEB is a good solution to the biggest/second biggest problem in the matchup. I just don't think the matchup is that relevant anymore. I doubt there'll be more than two or three Goblins players day two of the Grand Prix.


Propaganda is much more limited than BEB in my experience. First of all, vs. Goblins, it doesn't stop them from doing stupid crap with Lackey and dominating the board with SGC, Tinkerer and so on.

Propaganda is a ball-buster against Goblins. They need SGC to win if you drop one early. It deals with Piledriver, since he'll almost never be bigger than a 3/2. Lackey can drop all the creatures it wants provided none of them are named SGC with a Propaganda on the board.

The other thing Propaganda has going for it is that you don't need it early to do damage control. If BEB is at its best stopping early Lackeys, then it gets worse as the game goes on.

Truthfully, I think they're both sub-par choices, and I don't run either.


Vs. anything else, it tends to be a turn that would be better spent playing a creature. Also, Propaganda can be gripped like most of our trumps; BEB has no such problem and thus deals with Lackey just fine. In fact, it's my preferred means of dealing with Lackey as it doesn't care about creature removal.

I'd probably rather drop Propaganda than a creature vs. Belcher, Ichorid, Elves, and random Aggro.

Yeah, Prop can be gripped, but that's Goblins' only answer. And they'll probably need to answer it.

I won't argue that Propaganda is better for dealing with early Lackey, but there are other things to consider.


The sole exception is really Ichorid, so Propaganda hits Goblins and Ichorid, while BEB hits Goblins, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, TES, Belcher, Burn, RDW, etc. Propaganda isn't all that good vs. combo either; it stops them from winning via. EtW, sure, but it doesn't inconvenience them going off one bit. BEB can kill Shusher or counter Burning Wish or a Ritual. Also, EE deals with EtW and we already play a number of those. Additional EtW answers just seem redundant. So no Propaganda, BEB is better.

Propaganda hits Belcher, Ichorid, Elves, and random Aggro. It also has uses against TES, but I usually don't board them in since that's overkill.

BEB hits Aggro Loam, Burn, and Belcher. It's unreliable against TES, plus Chalice at one is our best play against them. We eat them alive anyway.

RDW, seriously? Then again, I mentioned Elves...

I'd probably rather hit Ichorid than Dragon Stompy, TES, Belcher, and Burn put together. Propaganda takes Ichorid from unfavorable to favorable, while BEB is marginal in each of those matchups. Also, Ichorid is probably about as prevalent as Dragon Stompy, Belcher, and Burn put together.


It's a good match-up, but by no means an autowin. They have that turn 1 Slogger, you don't have Force and that's pretty much all she wrote. Once again, BEB prevents us from losing to a good match-up. Dragon Stompy is very explosive and thus sometimes just wins. BEB cuts that just winning down in size. We do have our share of inconsistencies, let's not try to deny that.

We don't need the help against Dragon Stompy. I've played with Dragon Stompy in dozens of tournaments, and Faerie Stompy is favored like 75/25, minimum. Blue Blasts are overkill.

Our odds of having a turn one FoW are way better than their odds of a turn one Slogger.

Dragon Stompy only "just wins" with an unanswered turn one Slogger, stupid Pit-Dragon tricks, or with an early moon. We can easily answer a turn one Slogger or Pit-Dragon without BEB, moons don't affect us much, and they're the first thing the Dragon Stompy player is boarding out.

What it really comes down to is sideboard slots. I could run BEB for Goblins, Aggro Loam, and Burn, or I could run extra copies of Pithing Needle and Glen-Elendra Archmage for Landstill, Rock, and control. I think those decks are bigger problems.

Umezawa's Jitte is also great against Goblins, Burn, Dragon Stompy, and anything running Jitte while helping our awful Zoo matchup.

Submerge is great vs. Team America, Thresh, Eva Green, and some Dreadstill lists.

I think either of those are better than two BEB as well.

My sideboard right now is:

1 Sower of Temptation
3 Pithing Needle (4th is in the main)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus (might become Crypt number two)
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Glen-Elendra Archmage
3 Back to Basics
2 Umezawa's Jitte/Submerge

Aleksandr
01-29-2009, 06:27 AM
@ Kuma:

Yeah, you got a point with Wastelnad and especially Port. This is where Goblins gain huge tempo boost (assuming they have Lackey/Vial, but even just Warchief and his manacost reducing + haste can make trouble), which can be crucial. I always find it problematic to board against them, becasue we need to many unsynergistic cards, like CotV@1+Needle+EE+Blast.

I dont like that matchup. We need this:


________________________
Hydrokinesis :3: :u: :u:

Instant

Rather than pay H-kynesis
manacost, you may remove
a blue card from your hand
from the game.

Hydrokinesis deals three
damage divided as you
choose amongst any
number of target non-blue
non-flying creatures.

"Damn the damned dam!"
Ibfp Halfheart, last words.
________________________

Kuma
01-29-2009, 09:35 AM
@ Kuma:

Yeah, you got a point with Wastelnad and especially Port. This is where Goblins gain huge tempo boost (assuming they have Lackey/Vial, but even just Warchief and his manacost reducing + haste can make trouble), which can be crucial. I always find it problematic to board against them, becasue we need to many unsynergistic cards, like CotV@1+Needle+EE+Blast.

I dont like that matchup.

Vs Goblins, I board out the Chalices if I'm on the draw. Once they've dropped a Lackey or Vial, Chalice becomes nearly useless.

My boarding strategy is as follows:

If I'm on the draw, -4 Mulldrifter, -4 Chalice of the Void, +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Engineered Explosives, +2 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Sower, +1 Glen-Elendra Archmage.

On the play, -4 Mulldrifter, +2 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Pithing Needle/Sower, +1 Engineered Explosives.


@ We need this:


________________________
Hydrokinesis :3: :u: :u:

Instant

Rather than pay H-kynesis
manacost, you may remove
a blue card from your hand
from the game.

Hydrokinesis deals three
damage divided as you
choose amongst any
number of target non-blue
non-flying creatures.

"Damn the damned dam!"
Ibfp Halfheart, last words.
________________________

:laugh:

Yeah, vs. Goblins I'd run blue Pyrokinesis in a heartbeat.

Eldariel
01-29-2009, 10:47 AM
But many Goblin players will play REBs, Swords to Plows, Weirdings, etc, so we can use CotV. And it is also good once we destroy Vial via EE. I dont know, maybe just one-of as a Trinket target after we control situation a bit...?

I keep one Chalice in. I think that's the correct boarding, ultimately. That's also why I had 3 BEBs on my SB - that means I can bring 3 in and leave that one Chalice. I wouldn't even really want the 4th that often.

Kuma
02-02-2009, 03:57 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts on playing the Threshold and Landstill matches? They've been tough games for me lately, and I've been wondering if maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Here's what I've got:

The longer you wait to play Chalice at one versus Thresh, the weaker it becomes. It's excellent turn one on the play, but by turn four it's lost most of its punch. In the midgame you're probably better off trinketing up a Crypt/Relic or going for a Chalice at two to hit Smother/Daze/Tarmogoyf/Bob/Edict/Counterbalance/Chain of Plasma. However, vs. most red lists you'll probably want the Chalice at one even in the midgame.

It really sucks dealing with a 4/5 goyf when your biggest creature is 4/3. It's not that hard for goyf to be that size or bigger since we run a lot of creatures and artifacts. This is why I board in the fourth Sower and a Relic of Progenitus. The only other options we have are FoW and Chalice at two, the latter of which doesn't usually come down quick enough.

Glen-Elendra Archmage isn't worth it against Thresh unless they're running around eight removal spells. Even then I don't know what to cut for it.

It's usually best to risk being Dazed, unless it's easily avoidable. It's rarely worth imprinting a threat on a Chrome Mox to avoid the chance of a threat being Dazed. It's also usually not worth losing a City of Traitors to avoid Daze unless you have a hand full of land.

Trygon Predator also really sucks. Having four Sowers is really good against Thresh.

If you're playing against Thresh with Wastelands, you should probably board in a Needle or two and drop them early naming Wasteland. High mana hands are better than usual here. If I only have an Island and a double-colorless land for mana, I'll evoke my Mulldrifters early to try to hit more land. Nothing has lost me games here like having a Tomb/City wasted with no replacement in hand.

Landstill requires dramatic sideboarding. My usual is something like -2 SoFI -3 Sower, -3 Chalice of the Void, -1 Serendib Efreet, +3 Pithing Needle, +3 Glen-Elendra Archmage, +3 Back to Basics, +1 Relic of Progenitus (if they run goyf). The Pithing Needles are amazing. I'd run six or seven if I could.

Remember, you can break Standstills during cleanup with Pestermite to force them to discard some of the cards they draw.

Don't overextend. Deed and EE will screw you if you're not careful.

Mulldrifter's CMC can be a huge advantage here. I'd still evoke them early if you need mana to avoid Wasteland.

Back to Basics isn't that great against two and most three colored lists.

Any other pearls of wisdom from those experienced in these matchups? Am I wrong about any of these points?

Eldariel
02-02-2009, 05:20 PM
Here's how I play vs. Thresh:
-Use Chalice at 1 to draw counter
-Needle Top
-Mage for another Chalice, drop at 2 if possible (1 is ok too)
-Other than that, just fast beats, manage lifetotals carefully and determine who is the aggressor in any given scenario and play accordingly. Generally, you'd prefer to be attacking early on, but sometimes you need to be blocking a Goyf until you can achieve control.
-Pestermite in hand means you'll probably want to try to set up a race. Sower is better in control-game, but of course swings races too; playing a more controlling role when you have one does mean you're like to get to resolve it though.
-Equipment is good. Makes everything in your deck kick everything of theirs' ass. Leading with equipment is often a fine play as it may make them waste counters.
-Playing around Daze is worth it on a case-by-case basis, depending on your hand (mostly the number of threats and the amount of mana). By and large though, it's more efficient to just play straight into it.
-Try to spend your mana efficiently; ultimately, this match usually comes down to who's faster and optimizing your mana consumption goes a long way towards that. Avoid giving up the attrition war though. Some of their hands are very removal-heavy and make for a longish game and it pays to be prepared for both.

Vs. Landstill:
-First turn creature if at all possible; getting a beater in play and keeping it there blanks their Standstills.
-Against white variants, play aggressively and try to knock 'em out before you have to worry about Humilities and the like.
-Pestermite should usually be saved for their Standstills (respond with Pestermite; it can potentially force them to break their own Still), but occasionally you have a chance to make a tempo play on their land or an accelerated turn of your own; when you do, take it.
-Mulldrifter should rarely be evoked as you'd prefer the extra "card" that tends to force an answer to lower manacost almost always. This is especially true vs. EE and Deed.
-Chalice is a good bait, although if you can cast it for 2, it'll have very real value too. In tempo-hands, Chalice can be an invaluable StP/Brainstorm-killer.
-Against non-BG builds, Needle should almost always name EE. Against BG builds, you'll rarely want early Needles and instead want to wait for a sitiuation where they need to cast EE, or have cast Deed and name whichever is in play/going to be played.
-Try to sneak an equipment into play if at all possible; it'll remove the need to overcommit into mass removal. Of course, if their mass removal of choice is Deed, this is a mootish point. Still, the fact that your equipment generates card advantage whenever you hit the opponent lessens the impact of getting your board wiped.


Even with perfect play, you'll lose your share of games though. The decks are on top of the format for a reason. Much of the time though, you should be able to pull it out especially against the 2-3colour versions (and against 4+c versions, you have B2B) by forcing them to answer your medium threats and forcing a big one through. Remember Wakefield - it's not the first fatto that gets you, it's the last. Play accordingly, assume your first plays to get answered, but place some value in them so they force an answer. Then resolve your Sowers, Mulldrifters, Trinket Mages, the cards that put you in a winning position.

Kuma
02-03-2009, 04:53 PM
Here's how I play vs. Thresh:
-Use Chalice at 1 to draw counter

So if they counter it we should let it go? I've been assuming that a Force or Daze on an early Chalice means that they've got a hand full of one-costers, so I often Force back. I think you're right that Chalice at one is better as counter bait.

I think it's way more important against Dreadstill. It's probably worth Forcing back there.


-Needle Top

This is something else I haven't been doing. I've been relying on Chalice to stop Top and boarding out my Needles if they don't play Wasteland. I guess it's a good call if you have an extra Needle, but wouldn't it be better to have a Relic or Crypt post-board? Provided they aren't playing Wasteland. What do you do about Wasteland?


-Mage for another Chalice, drop at 2 if possible (1 is ok too)

I agree with this if they don't have a goyf or goyfs on the table. If they do, you should consider getting Relic or Crypt. "Ok" is exactly how I feel about a midgame Chalice at one.


-Other than that, just fast beats, manage lifetotals carefully and determine who is the aggressor in any given scenario and play accordingly. Generally, you'd prefer to be attacking early on, but sometimes you need to be blocking a Goyf until you can achieve control.

This is one of the few things Serendib is good for. I think I've been guilty of playing a little too aggressively against Thresh, and I've been trying to be a little more defensive.


-Pestermite in hand means you'll probably want to try to set up a race. Sower is better in control-game, but of course swings races too; playing a more controlling role when you have one does mean you're like to get to resolve it though.

Agreed, but I think you sell Sower short. He's amazing vs. Threshold, IMO.


-Equipment is good. Makes everything in your deck kick everything of theirs' ass. Leading with equipment is often a fine play as it may make them waste counters.

I'll have to try leading with equipment more often. Maybe I should board in my two Jitte's vs. Thresh.


-Playing around Daze is worth it on a case-by-case basis, depending on your hand (mostly the number of threats and the amount of mana). By and large though, it's more efficient to just play straight into it.

Completely agree.


-Try to spend your mana efficiently; ultimately, this match usually comes down to who's faster and optimizing your mana consumption goes a long way towards that. Avoid giving up the attrition war though. Some of their hands are very removal-heavy and make for a longish game and it pays to be prepared for both.

Point taken. Play slowly and efficiently vs. Thresh. However, I think a large part of my problem is that most Thresh lists in my meta main Trygon Predator and/or run lots of removal.



Vs. Landstill:
-First turn creature if at all possible; getting a beater in play and keeping it there blanks their Standstills.

Sounds good. I really don't know how to play against Landstill, since it's almost non-existent in my meta.


-Against white variants, play aggressively and try to knock 'em out before you have to worry about Humilities and the like.

Sounds like running all the equipment possible is a good idea here.


-Pestermite should usually be saved for their Standstills (respond with Pestermite; it can potentially force them to break their own Still), but occasionally you have a chance to make a tempo play on their land or an accelerated turn of your own; when you do, take it.

Take my opinion for what you will, but a tempo play on their land sounds really weak vs. Landstill. You're overcomitting to the board to tap a land. I'd do it if Pestermite was my only beater, but it seems weak otherwise.


-Mulldrifter should rarely be evoked as you'd prefer the extra "card" that tends to force an answer to lower manacost almost always. This is especially true vs. EE and Deed.

Ideally yes, but how do you avoid getting wasted out of the game?


-Chalice is a good bait, although if you can cast it for 2, it'll have very real value too. In tempo-hands, Chalice can be an invaluable StP/Brainstorm-killer.

I've found Chalice at one to be more counterproductive than anything. It shuts off your Needles to stop cantrips and StP. Chalice at two has real value, but it's too easy for them to get rid of it if they need to. I wouldn't leave more than one Chalice in post-board and even that seems iffy.


-Against non-BG builds, Needle should almost always name EE. Against BG builds, you'll rarely want early Needles and instead want to wait for a sitiuation where they need to cast EE, or have cast Deed and name whichever is in play/going to be played.

Sounds like a good idea. At the very least, you'll force BG builds to blow Deed when they don't want to.


-Try to sneak an equipment into play if at all possible; it'll remove the need to overcommit into mass removal. Of course, if their mass removal of choice is Deed, this is a mootish point. Still, the fact that your equipment generates card advantage whenever you hit the opponent lessens the impact of getting your board wiped.

The problem with this is that EE at three blows up most/all of your equipment too.


Even with perfect play, you'll lose your share of games though. The decks are on top of the format for a reason. Much of the time though, you should be able to pull it out especially against the 2-3colour versions (and against 4+c versions, you have B2B) by forcing them to answer your medium threats and forcing a big one through. Remember Wakefield - it's not the first fatto that gets you, it's the last. Play accordingly, assume your first plays to get answered, but place some value in them so they force an answer. Then resolve your Sowers, Mulldrifters, Trinket Mages, the cards that put you in a winning position.

Of course. I don't expect to be better than 50/50 vs either of those decks, but I want to play against them as best as I can. The big problem I have vs both decks is Wasteland. How do you deal with Wasteland, Eldariel?

Eldariel
02-03-2009, 05:12 PM
Of course. I don't expect to be better than 50/50 vs either of those decks, but I want to play against them as best as I can. The big problem I have vs both decks is Wasteland. How do you deal with Wasteland, Eldariel?

Usually? I let them. If Landstill wastelands you (most modern builds cut Wasteland), it's a turn more for you to beat down before their big card come in and it allows you to make good out of your excess lands. Sometimes I fetch a Mox with Trinket Mage and if playing against Wastelands, I avoid blowing up my own Cities and may use Sea Drake to set up a basic board where I can play the non-basics and use them immediately guaranteeing mana for few turns.

Mostly though, once you draw some cards, you'll welcome every Wasteland they throw your way as you've got excess lands anyways. Of course, you'll want to try to set the pace of the game; if you keep playing threats, every Wasteland is going to cost them a notable amount of life. Obviously you'll lead with an Island if you don't have Chalice at 1 (and against Landstill, regardless of the scenario).


Overall though, my experience is that once you hit with SoFI, resolve a Mulldrifter or even just play a few turns, you'll have drawn a land or two more than you tend to need and thus I rarely worry about Waste as I can simply draw out of it rather consistently. That said, a two-lander may provoke me to Needle Waste but I don't recall actually making that play in the last months even once. It still produces them mana; treat opponent's Wastes as tempo plays for you, since that's what they ultimately are; they usually give up a turn to try to...accomplish little (as you only play only Islands, they can't cut you off blue and thus can only try to go after your total mana production and eventually you'll have enough blue to ignore them).

BreathWeapon
02-05-2009, 10:11 AM
So, has any one passed judgment on Esperoza? I tried maxing Seat of the Synod and adding an 11th U land, and it seemed a little clunky all things considered. The card feels like a 2 card combo a lot of the time, and it heavily drains resources under non-ideal situations.

Any one else having similar findings?

Tacosnape
02-05-2009, 12:22 PM
So, has any one passed judgment on Esperoza? I tried maxing Seat of the Synod and adding an 11th U land, and it seemed a little clunky all things considered. The card feels like a 2 card combo a lot of the time, and it heavily drains resources under non-ideal situations.

Any one else having similar findings?

I think you're pretty much dead on. This was the same conclusion I came to after reading the card. It's nice to know someone arrived at the same place with testing to back it up.

Captain Hammer
02-05-2009, 01:52 PM
Well, Esperosa functions as nice proxy for Sea Drake. That's about it.

Though to be fair, Sea Drake costs you a ton of tempo in all but the much revered first turn Chrome Mox + Ancient Tomb play as well. Otherwise, you just gave up two land drops and are slowed down a lot by playing the card early.

Atleast with Esperosa, if it get's StPed right away, it didn't really have much of a drawback. Can't say the same about Sea Drake.

BreathWeapon
02-05-2009, 06:46 PM
I don't think it's "hopeless," it's just resource intensive. Considering Faerie Stompy is often a "boom or bust" kind of deck, and Pestermite isn't that great, explosiveness in place of consistency isn't the worst idea.

Seat of the Synod turning Esperoza into an under costed Waterspout Djinn is kind of sweet.

3duece
02-05-2009, 08:12 PM
Ive yet to test it as well, but I really hate the goddamn pestermites. They're really good on an opponent's land in their upkeep, but then I remember that I just paid 3 for a 2/1 flyer. I think with four seats this deck can easily support esperzoa as a 3-of that dodges chalice at 2 just like the damn 'mite. But then again it doesn't imprint to chrome mox. Anyway, maybe something like this:

4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 seat of the synod
6 island

4 sea drake
4 serendib efreet
4 trinket mage
4 mulldrifter
3 esperzoa
3 sower of tempation
4 force of will

4 chrome mox
4 chalice of the void
3 sword of fire and ice
3 sword of light and shadow
1 sigil of distinction
1 pithing needle

BreathWeapon
02-06-2009, 01:47 AM
Not printing on Chrome Mox isn't that problematic, unless you have 2 Esperoza, because if you're in a position to imprint something then you imprint whatever else is in your hand to cast Esperoza.

I'd run 7 Islands, Wasteland sucks even more with 4 Seat of the Synod.

I think Esperoza is worth it, sometimes it just pisses you off, but other times it just wins you games.

It's a love hate hard.

BreathWeapon
02-08-2009, 08:11 AM
Losing Esperoza to Lightning Bolt doesn't seen to be a problem, but losing Esperoza to Shattering Spree in addition to the rest of your board really sucks.

Valtrix
02-08-2009, 11:37 AM
Essentially esperzoa is almost this in this deck: "Each turn you may not play any new spells."

That's really what he is, because each turn you're going to have to return an artifact back to your hand, and then replay it. Sure, you can cast chalice or mox for free, but you really don't want that, even for a 4/3 flyer. You want chalice to stay on the board at 1/2, and you want mox to give you mana. Seat is a little better, but then you stop yourself from getting to 4 land if you played esperzoa early. Most often you won't get enough mana to keep replaying an artifact, as well as play a threat. I don't think a deck that wants to play an aggro game needs a card that will prevent them from continuing to play more spells until that creature is gone.

Kuma
02-08-2009, 04:51 PM
Pestermite isn't that great.


I really hate the goddamn pestermites. They're really good on an opponent's land in their upkeep, but then I remember that I just paid 3 for a 2/1 flyer.

Are you kidding me? Here's how I rate the creatures in Faerie Stompy:

Sea Drake
Sower of Temptation
Mulldrifter (vs. control/board control)
Pestermite/Trinket Mage
Serendib Efreet
Mulldrifter (vs. everything else)

I'd cut all my Serendib Efreets and a Mulldrifter before I'd cut any Pestermites. Pestermite isn't a big body, but he does so many other things:

-Tempo play on your opponent's land

-Swings damage races by tapping attackers or blockers

-Kills attacking creatures by untapping bigger creatures of yours

-Can be played through Rishadan Port, which is becoming more relevant with the rise of Merfolk

-Breaks Standstill at end of turn

-Lets you untap a land of yours to drop two permanents in one turn or to play Pestermite and equip it

Like Tacosnape has said, Pestermite is a blue Jesus.


I think with four seats this deck can easily support esperzoa as a 3-of that dodges chalice at 2 just like the damn 'mite. But then again it doesn't imprint to chrome mox.


Not printing on Chrome Mox isn't that problematic, unless you have 2 Esperoza, because if you're in a position to imprint something then you imprint whatever else is in your hand to cast Esperoza.

I'd run 7 Islands, Wasteland sucks even more with 4 Seat of the Synod.

I think Esperoza is worth it, sometimes it just pisses you off, but other times it just wins you games.

It's a love hate hard.

Even if Pestermite sucks as badly as you say, Esperzoa is far worse. At least we can cast Pestermite if we don't have an artifact in play. Running four Seat of the Synod means we lose B2B out of the sideboard which greatly hurts the board control matchups. It also hurts the Dragon Stompy matchup, makes us even more vulnerable to Wasteland, makes Pernicious Deed wreck our mana base even more, and the damn thing doesn't even imprint on Chrome Mox. Oh, and it makes artifact removal even better against us.

I don't even have to say how bad Esperzoa + Seat of the Synod is when you have a City of Traitors out.

I got a bunch of sample hands from MWS and I asked myself if I'd rather have an Esperzoa over a Serendib in that hand. The No's outnumbered the Yes's by four or five to one. Then again I didn't add any Seat of the Synod, but even if I did I'll bet I'd still prefer any other creature by a margin of three or four to one.

Just say no to the metallic jellyfish.

scrumdogg
02-08-2009, 06:13 PM
Added 3 Esperzoa 3 Seat, subtracted 1 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Island & the last 2 Pestermites, went 4-0 today in the Swiss at our local tourney. Put 4 Blue Blasts replacing 4 Wipe Away in the SB and was fairly happy with Esperzoa all day. They were dealt with all day and I SB'ed them out at least one match, but they had to be dealt with, not ignored as the Pestermites usually are.

Round 1 vs the MR kid in his first tournament....not much to say other than this deck should beat random stuff 2-0. Nice kid, good attitude, I ended Game 1 3 life (vs G/W) as I refused to block his silly critters with my good critters since couldn't bring myself to believe he would attack into me without some trick - Giant Growth, etc. That & Ancient Tomb brought me really low, but large flying guys finish him.

Round 2 vs Belcher. G1 I keep the speculative hand of 7 with EE and Ancient Tomb, since he goes for goblins more often than not (which makes sense in a BWish build). Yup, he made a bazillion Goblins. They died. Followed shortly by him. G2 on the draw I should have mulliganned the Tomb & Chalice 6 hand but going too low for a FoW hand means he rebuilds as fast as you do. Hope he doesn't go off Turn 1. He does. Makes 10 goblins, which was just enough to kill me before I could drop the Trinket Mage off Tomb & Seat (no Mox) for EE in time. Had I topdecked the EE or a Mox, that game would have gone differently, but live & learn. Game 3 I keep 2 Land (Island & Seat) 2 Blue Blasts & Trinket Mage plus whatever. Island go. He drops some stuff, Rituals of a Petal and attempts to cast Rite of Flame. Blue Blast, burn for 3. 2 turns later Trinket Mage lands, Sigil follows, beats ensue & last Blue Blast stops BWish attempt to not die.

Round 3 vs Goyf Sligh Triple Esperzoa opening, he deals with all of them with an early Lavamancer & 2 Fanatics. In retrospect I should have forced the Lavamancer & shouldn't have blocked with the second Zoa, but I feared Goyf more (mistake). He gets ahead of me & finishes me off. Game 2 I side out the Zoas, fearing Spree (which he doesn't play, d'oh!). I misboard, not putting in Drakes & siding out the SOFI but still win. Game 3 I side correctly and end up stealing his 4/4 FoD with my SoFI'd Mulldrifter holding off my Drake. I land a Chalice @1 & an In The Eye of Chaos which slow him enough that I can chip him down faster than he can chip me until I can equip SOFI to FoD and swing lethal through my Drake.

Round 4 vs Ciccio and 4c Thresh & he can't ID as I'm the only 3-0 >.<
Game 1 he wins the die roll (of course...) and I play around Daze to land a Turn 3 Chalice at 1. He plays a Tarmogoyf, I play Sower, no FoW, I ride that 5 a turn to victory. Game 2 I keep a risky hand but try the Turn 1 Tomb into Chalice only to meet Daze. I do land a B2B when he's tapped out but he gets more benefit out of it than I do with a timely fetch & a Top. I lose that one... Game 3 he keeps a risky hand - 1 land. Turn 2 Chalice @1 with Daze protection from a Mox is bad for him. Turn 3 Trinket Mage into Turn 4 Chalice at 2 is very bad for him... Finally, I beat that goddamn deck...when it doesn't matter :cool: (to me, I was in Top 4 either way, he had to win to get in).

Top 4, since the Goyf-Sligh player wanted to play it out, damn his filthy soul, I get paired against UWB LD Landstill (Waste, Crucible, Vindicate) with other lovely things such as Academy Ruins/EE. Get my face eaten off 0-2. Oh well, that is a matchup we don't win...

Turnout was a bit low but with the exception of the MR kid, not a bad deck or player in the room, good testing in a tournament setting. Not convinced either way on Esperzoa yet, but I never wanted them to be a gawdawful Pestermite when I did see them.

Eldariel
02-08-2009, 07:29 PM
I've actually experienced UWb Landstill to be quite beatable. Thanks to Needle, Back to Basics and quick beats, the EE recursion doesn't always get going and if your hand is fast, they can't properly utilize their Standstills. Also, Mulldrifters and Glen Elendra Archmages are huge. I've beaten DiF's UWb Cunning Still (admittedly it didn't pack Vindicate, but it had Cunning Wish to much the same effect) in two separate (online) tournaments rather handily with fast hands.

scrumdogg
02-08-2009, 08:09 PM
The problem in this case is 3 fold. First, this guy plays a TON of basics, wasn't even worth it to board in the B2Bs in my estimation. Secondly, I dropped the Pithing Needles (partly because my son is playing them, partly for the horrible synergy with COTV@1) and the Glen Elendras (although they may make a comeback...). Glen Elendra would be quite good, if I could land them & keep recurring them which would not have been a guarantee. And Vindicate, especially combined with the other elements, is a beast of a card. Combine it with Crucible-Waste, blue card draw & counter, and Ruins-EE, it makes for a hellaciously tough package. Fortunately, Landstill doesn't see much play in my area (esp 3-4 color) and I don't expect much at the GP.

Eldariel
02-09-2009, 09:52 PM
Quick note: I just won a Magic-League Trial tournament with the following:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
9 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
1 [SC] Shoreline Ranger
4 [AN] Serendib Efreet
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [P2] Sea Drake
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
3 [LRW] Pestermite

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast


Match-ups:

Round 1: UWb Wishstill

G1 I lose the roll and keep a slow hand (only Islands) with double Force. I Force his turn 2 Standstill and proceed to resolve Efreet (O-Ringed), Mulldrifter (resolves), Mulldrifter (Forced), Sea Drake (resolves), Trinket Mage (resolves), Needle (on his Factory; my Tomb was putting me low on life due to constant use - resolves) into Wrath. I pretty much expected that and let it resolve so I don't let a relevant spell like Humility to resolve. I drop the 3rd Mulldrifter I had been holding back while he drops an Elspeth. I play-equip SoFI and beat his face blowing up his tokens each turn. Then I drop a Pestermite to take his second white away just in case, Force his EE and win.

Side out 3 Chalices, a Serendib & Sowers for Glen Elendra Archmages, extra Needle and Back to Basics.

G2 I keep another slow hand with Force, Force his Standstill, he Forces back and it sticks. I drop a Trinket Mage for Needle breaking his Standstill, get there, drop Glen Elendra and try for a Mox, in response to which he StPs GEA (could've played Mox first, but as I had a Mulldrifter in hand, I figured I'd rather take the retail value out of it given the chance). I imprint nothing and next turn drop a Sigil for 4, equipping my Trinket. I get there for 5, and he Cunning Wishes for a Dismantling Blow. He drops EE at 0, I play Needle forcing his EE and name Factory. My follow-up Sword of Fire and Ice gets Counterspelled (bummer, I was hoping to sneak in equipment, but with his mana, he wasn't gonna tap low enough for that to happen). Next he casts his Dismantling Blow, but he had the kicker-mana so I'm in a bad spot now with him having drawn 4 extra cards to my 1. I resolve Efreet and beat him down to 7. However, now he has the backbreaking Humility & Standstill. Just to add salt to my wounds, I draw a Force next turn (I had a pitch in hand). I beat him down to 5, but have to break his standstill since his factory would stabilize him under the Humility. I don't have gas though so I wait a few turns hoping to find my second Needle, equipment or B2B. All I get is a crapton of creatures that would easily wreck him except for the Humility in play. I eventually drop a random and beat him down to 2 until I die to triple Mishra's and Elspeth (with SoFI off the top and Needle one card down).

G3 I have a solid hand with Island and City for mana and keep. Turn 2 Efreet gets there, while he masturbates with Brainstorms. Trinket gets countered, but a second one sticks fetching Needle. He drops Elspeth and even though I have two Forces in hand, I don't particularly care and let it resolve. I think of Needling her, but decide not to waste my time. I drop a Sea Drake, name one of his outs with Needle in EE and have now double Force ready for whatever else he might have. Turns out he doesn't have anything and he succumbs to my beats two turns later.


1-0 (2-1)

Round 2: Mono-Blue Painter

G1 I lose the roll and mull to 5 with a decent hand if I draw blue (dude, Needle, Tomb, dude, City or something). He Brainstorms and drops a Grindstone, which I let resolve, Needling it next turn. He drops Servant while I've drawn a Mox and Force and go for Mulldrifter, which resolves (imprinting Sower; stealing Servant does little good). I've also got a second 'Drifter at the ready. I find a second Force and am feeling pretty good. He Brainstorms, I allow it, and he finds little else. He has to leave though and we never get to play it out; he reveals a hand of Servant, double Pact and another 'Storm. I checked the top of my library and would've found a Chalice + Trinket soon so I could've pretty much put it away with a Chalice at 2 and 3 (yes, really), so I would've won this one anyways (unless he just opted to put his relevant cards on top of his library from the Brainstorm), but default win says it doesn't matter.

2-0 (2-1)

Round 3: Urg Dreadstill

G1 I lose the roll and he double mulligans, dropping an Island. I drop a Chalice at 1, he Forces and I figure he's playing a Dreadstill 'cause otherwise he'd save that Force. He drops a Top off Factory, and I resolve a Trinket Mage for another Chalice. He tinkers with his deck while I Chalice at 1 and drop an Efreet. Next turn I drop a SoLS and beat him low enough to earn a scoop after he checks his top. I had the Sower in hand so I wouldn't have really cared about a Dreadnought had it showed up.

Siding out Needle for EE.

G2 I go for Chalice at 1 that earns a Daze. I try to Islandcycle my Shoreline, but he Stifles meaning I need to topdeck a blue source now (first time that ever happened). I drop a second Tomb while waiting. Two turns later I find an Island and Trinket for another Chalice that I immediately drop at 1. It resolves. Then I drop an Efreet and a Mulldrifter that gets Forced. I'm at 7 from my Tombs and Efreet, and he is at 14. I decide to just beat him down while Trinket sits home ('cause I can't swing into a Factory). I don't play the SoLS in my hand, because that would mean that if it got countered, I'd lose the race with my Efreet vs. itself. I hit an Island and try for the SoLS and it indeed gets countered (while I have a Force in hand, I find the Chalice at 1 to be more important and continue to wait for EE). However, he finds no answer to my Chalice and Efreet beats take it home.

Game ends and he reveals a hand of Dreadnought, Stifle, REB and double Snare. Them's the beats.

3-0 (4-1)

Round 4: GBw Survival

G1 I win the roll (!!) and he mulls to 4 (!!!). I open with Island-go and he opens with a Seize taking my Efreet. Then I drop a second Island while he Therapies my SoLS away. For whatever reason he leaves my Chalice untouched so I promptly thank him with a Chalice at 2 (from the discard suite, I put him on Survival; this is further reinforced by his third land being Volrath's Stronghold). I proceed to cast some creatures and beat him to death while he does nothing but Seizes one more time.

As he's playing a very basic-heavy version, B2Bs stay on my SB. On the draw, I'm fairly sure I can't Chalice the Survival away so I side one out for a Needle. I also bring a Tormod's Crypt in, but otherwise leave my main intact.

G2 I get Seized for a Drifter and he plays a Goyf, while I City > Island into Drake keeping my Island. He has the Shriekmaw and I decide to drop a Sigil at 3 rather than Drake right away to avoid having to go to 0 lands. He has the Survival, however, and I have yet to Needle it. He proceeds to fetch Genesis, Squee and Harmonic Sliver and beats me down and my Needle and Drake > equip next turn feel kinda weak. He breaks my Needle as I wished and I get to beat with Drake, but he's still at 11. I drop SoLS, but don't have the mana to equip it yet (haven't drawn lands since the opener) and he BGHs my Drake and drops another Tarmogoyf. My next draw isn't a Sower and we're off to G3.

G3 I open with a Needle on Survival into Efreet + Mull. I beat him low and while he drops Deed, it's too little too late and he scoops 'em up after I beat him even lower and drop a second Drifter with SoLS in hand, while he reveals a second Deed, Gigapede, Stronghold and Seize, apparently off the top.

4-0 (6-2)

Round 5: Bye

G1 I lose the roll and bla bla bla, insert generic Bye-joke here.

5-0 (6-2)

Round 6: UWgb Counterslivers

G1 I win the roll and start with Island to his Sea - Vial. Turn 2 Trinket finds Needle and he drops a Sinew Sliver. I get there, drop a Mull, another and a Needle, while his Sinew stands lonely, unwilling to trade with my 2/2s. Next turn I drop a Sigil for 7 and an 8/8 Drifter makes short work of the game after a FoW shows his StP the door.

I side out two Chalices and two SoLS for Jittes and the second Needle.

G2 he opens with a Vial and I mulligan into 6 with a turn 1 Drake, but no other creatures. I decide to go with it, since my 5 is unlike to have much more. I run headfirst into a Daze, never draw another creature (and get Wasted for good measure) and while I do Needle his Vial, a combination of two Disenchants and just plain ol' hardcasting of two-drops along with Mutavault means I'm never in it. I die to double Muscle, Hibernation & Vault in short order (oh yeah, and the Needle blew up).

G3 He opens with yet another Vial while I have a turn 2 Mage (into Daze) into turn 3 Mage > Needle. I eat a Waste, but my 4-lander doesn't care. I drop an Efreet and Mox out a Force to cast Chalice at 2 (when he obviously doesn't have counters as that Needle wouldn't have resolved with his two Vials in play if he could do something about it). He had a Sinew + Mutavault, but beyond that the Chalice just locked him out and I beat him to death in short order while his creatures wonder when they could actually swing as I've got a new critter each turn all bigger than his. My flying hordes take it home in quick succession.

6-0 (8-3)


Hmm, that wasn't that brief after all, I guess. Oh well. As long as people don't die 'cause of it, I'd imagine it doesn't matter.

Captain Hammer
02-10-2009, 02:11 AM
Eldariel, I always freaking loved your list. It's epic.

It just needs one important change...

-1 Island
+1 Seat of Synod

I mean for godsake dude, you play 3 Sower of Temptation with a cc of 2UU.

Seat of Synod is worth it for that reason alone.

KillemallCFH
02-10-2009, 09:43 AM
Eldariel, I always freaking loved your list. It's epic.

It just needs one important change...

-1 Island
+1 Seat of Synod

I mean for godsake dude, you play 3 Sower of Temptation with a cc of 2UU.

Seat of Synod is worth it for that reason alone.I really don't think it is necessary. All it does is give you more of a chance of being randomly hosed by non-basic hate. If you really need the second blue, Trinket Mage -> Chrome Mox is there.

Captain Hammer
02-10-2009, 01:49 PM
Grabbing Chrome Mox means that you'll have to part with another blue card in your hand other than the Sower, which is practically never worthwhile.

Kuma
02-10-2009, 03:25 PM
Eldariel, I always freaking loved your list. It's epic.

It just needs one important change...

-1 Island
+1 Seat of Synod

I mean for godsake dude, you play 3 Sower of Temptation with a cc of 2UU.

Seat of Synod is worth it for that reason alone.

I can think of a few times I had wished I could Trinket for a Seat of the Synod, but that's not reason enough to run it. Faerie Stompy has an incredibly weak mana base, and it's not worth weakening it more for the rare time you have one blue source, no City of Traitors in play, a Sower in hand, a Trinket Mage resolving, and a blue card you really don't want to imprint on a Mox.

These situations are only slightly more common than wanting a Tel-Jilad Stylus to kill a Serendib Efreet.

Like the whole Shoreline Ranger/Island debate, running a Seat of the Synod over an Island boils down to a personal preference. It's not wrong per se to have it, but I believe it's sub-par.


Grabbing Chrome Mox means that you'll have to part with another blue card in your hand other than the Sower, which is practically never worthwhile.

It's worth it when you have a City of Traitors out. That's around half of our games.

There are other rare times where you want/need your land drop plus a Mox for acceleration.

scrumdogg
02-15-2009, 06:40 PM
One of the premises of my experimental build was that upgraded quality of creature (especially combined with the recursive ability of SOLAS) negated the need for as much equipment as the original. I also wanted to maximize the ability to drop Chalice at both 1cc & 2cc. However, I have been missing the Jittes more and more - not just as a critical mass of equipment, but for all the lovely, retarded things you can do with a Jitte. The 3x Esperzoa wasn't bad, but 2x has felt more correct the more I test. I also hate to lose the MD Crypt, but I'm testing -1 Esperzoa -1 Crypt +2 Jitte MD and -1 BEB +1 Jitte SB.

SB for the tournament today:
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Back to Basics
3x Gilded Drake
3x In The Eye of Chaos
3x BEB

17 people, 5 rounds, retardedly good prize support...

Round 1 vs Josh Whittemore, good local PTQ player who usually plays GWB Goodstuff.

Game 1 win die roll....mull to 5...keep a 2 land hand...never see another mana source. Surprisingly, this game did not end well for the good guys & he played GWB but with some interesting choices (turns out he was trying more of a Berserk Stompy type build with Kavu Predators & Invigorate, False Cure either MD or SB) like the turn 1 (and turn 3) Skyshroud Elite(s) that went the distance on my face. I side in the Gilded Drakes for the Esperzoas and the SOFI. I lead with a Chalice at 1, take a bunch of Ancient Tomb damage but land that, Trinket Mage & friends with sticks. Getting stabilized and then ahead before he can deal with the Chalice is very satisfactory. FoW on his desperation Deed seals the game. Game 3 he leads with Bayou, Skyshroud. I lead with Tomb, Chalice. He never draws another land...ever...which does not bode well for the end result. That was stupid, one good game of back & forth magic sandwiched between two monumental mana screws.
1-0

Round 2 vs one of my nemesises Shane. Always a good match, always a good time, enjoyable even when I get monkeystomped...and he's playing Welder Survival, I know this because he played my son round 1 :cool:
Game 1 he wins die roll and land Savannah, BoP. I keep the Island, Chrome, Chalice, land, Trinket, Drake, Serendib hand. Draw FoW, I luv u deck! Land the Chalice, he plays some unimpressive critter & a land, I draw a blue card for FoW and land Drake. He draws, is not amused, plays a land & plays Squee...I refuse to lose to Squee-beats! I drop a piece of equipment and swing. He is low on cards & attempts a Witness on a fetch. I Force that and win through before he finds anything useful. Game 2 he gets an early Goyf and I misplay. I had Gilded Drake in hand at the time and could have stolen it untapped, even though I would have Lightning Bolted myself (Tomb + 1 mana burn) and then dropped a large-ish flyer next turn. I choose to do something else and he Grips my lone blue source (Seat)...and swings. I get an island shortly, but that sets me back enough that even when I get the swap & my flyer, I'm low enough that his angry Rofellos pushes through enough damage. I also sided out the Sigil, which was a mistake I rectified Game 3. Game 3 has another early Chalice for 1 and the mid game goodness of SOLAS equipped whatever bringing back the evoked Mulldrifter every turn. Yeah, that ended poorly for him...as FoW denied his Intuition for stuff that thankfully we will never know (probably triple Grip, but in a SotF, it's all scary...).
2-0
Round 3 vs Greg, WPI student and a good player with an extensive collection & the ability to build off-beat but effective decks with a BW Pikula-esque build. He wins die roll and leads turn 1 Ritual into Phyrexian Arena. Huh. Turn 1 Chalice at 1 should slow him down a bit, and does, he ends the game with 7 cards in hand (including at least 1 turn he had to discard from 9) including by the end all 4x STP, Thoughtseize, Ritual, etc. Not that he was unable to play cards. He lands, over a number of turns, 2x Auriok Champion (Bikini Chick!), Dark Confidant and Nyaxathid. I have five in hand for Nya and get to kill it with the evoke Mulldrifter, return it with SOLAS equipped flyer play, which makes me happier than Greg... Mulldrifter keeps my hand gassed as well & his last ditch Vindicate runs into FoW. Bob & Arena cancelled out the Auriok Champions (or vice versa...) but the large flyer that gained me life & cards (and had protection: his deck....) took that. Game two we trade cards back & forth clearing the board and our hands. Unfortunately for Greg, my deck is mostly creatures & equipment at that point, even Chalice or FoW being acceptable. I topdeck a critter and play it. He draws discard. I peel a Sigil and cast it for 7, equip 6, pound. Game ends shortly...
3-0
Round 4 vs John with Belcher (the only other undefeated), we calculate & ID then play for practice, lots of Games 1 (we know what we would SB, but that is definitely in my favor) :cool: We run about 50/50 on 10 Game 1s, often but not always related to who goes first (like the game I FoW his Turn 1 attempt, then drop a turn 1 Trinket Mage into Chalice zero (I knew he still has LED in hand from Land Grant) but draw 3 lands, a Sower, and then another land, giving him more than enough time to rebuild his hand Belch my face off.
Round 5 vs Roddy & his infamous 5c Sliver Survival deck, also at 10 points from an earlier unintentional draw with a local combo player who runs Dormant Sliver as a SB card :cool: We ID into Top 4 and then play to test. I get destroyed, hard, even when I don't get manascrewed, but Roddy is literally the only player on this continent who plays this build (I believe) which means I will face him Round 1 at GP Chicago >.< followed by seven guys playing Landstill...

So, 7-1-2 in tournament play the last 2 weeks and coming together nicely. However, I'm not fully satisfied with the sideboard. I should be acquiring a 4th ITEOC this week and plan to drop the BEBs for now (although a large showing of Goblins in Grinders at GP:Chicago could see them audibled back in). The question becomes, what to add as a 2 of? Add back in Glen Elendra? Add more Trinket targets, even if they conflict with Chalice (EE - which I almost always want more of..., Relic, Pithing Needle being at the top of the list...). I'm not sold on the 3rd Jitte either but that merits more testing before conclusions and 1x Relic could obviously replace the 2nd Crypt. The Mox Diamond experiment is also still inconclusive and I need to conclusively evaluate it soon.

scrumdogg
02-16-2009, 09:44 AM
I would love to abandon the Sigil except that it does 2 things repeatedly (and this may be a function of my having more mana, but I don't believe so) 1) it keeps winning me games 2) it allows me to have an offensive play with Trinket Mage instead of defensive/reactive/accelerative. Sigil will almost never be the first Trinket Mage target or gotten early in the game, but in a stall or a race later? It has been both an excellent tutor target & topdeck. It also makes a greater impact the later the game gets. I have, multiple times, had 4-6 mana on the board & and extra City of Traitors in hand, tap the one on board, play the new one, drop Sigil for a ton, equip (no mana, which is nice) swing for a ton when they were expecting to only take 2 or 3.

JeroenC
02-16-2009, 11:47 AM
Damn, I ab-so-lu-te-ly adore Sigil. Topdecking it almost always sets me on a highway to win and it makes lategame T. Mage an absolute bomb. I wouldn't ever consider removing it again. (Especially since in the past I wanted to add Bonesplitter to have an equipment target for T. Mage.)

Goyf hasn't been as much of a problem to me since I started playing triple maindeck sower and the fourth + one Control Magic SB.

I'm finally trying the maindeck without P. Needle, replacing it with EE. I can't count the amount of times I've wanted an EE maindeck, but I'm having difficulty remembering the last time I wanted P. Needle maindeck. Guess I'll find out.

Finally dropped 2 Jitte and one SoFaI for SoLaS. Equipment configuration is now 3/3/1 (SofaI, SoLaS, Sigil).

JeroenC
02-16-2009, 04:00 PM
Can I see your list? Maybe there are other things to drop... I know maindeck Needle can be very useful at times (but it hasn't been very useful for me very often, so I decided to swap it for an EE).

JeroenC
02-16-2009, 05:56 PM
The way my list differs
+1 T. Mage target (in my deck, EE)
-1 Pestermite
-1 Shoreline Ranger (I've never found this good. The only thing it does is improve an Ancient Tomb-and-no-other-mana-hand, possibly Island+Chrome Mox hand. I honestly can't say I'd ever give this card another chance.)
+1 Mulldrifter (They cost 3 mana if you want them to. I always have a dilemma if I can't fullcast them, but Evoking them is pretty brutal as well. I see no reason not to run 4... The deck ran 4 TfK in the past.)
-2 Jitte (I became increasingly unpleased with this card)
+1 SoFaI(obvious reasons, I hate dropping below a certain number of equipments)
+1 SoLaS(see above)

My sideboard is pretty different, but that's all up to personal choice in the end.

scrumdogg
02-17-2009, 12:07 PM
Current main deck, for comparison & discussion:

Land: 20
2x Seat of Synod (need more than 1 for Esperzoa, 4 was too many)
1x Academy Ruins (inconclusive experiment to date)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
9x Island (Unglued, of course, for luck & style)

Spells: 20
3x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond
1x EE
1x Sigil of Distinction
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire & ice
3x Sword of Light & Shadow
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Force of Will

Critters: 21
4x Sea Drake
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Trinket Mage
4x Mulldrifter
2x Esperzoa
3x Sower of Temptation

While I miss some of the utility of other builds (Crypt, Relic, Needle etc) the complete lack of conflict between most of those & Chalice at 1 (which is one of the best plays against most of the format...) more than makes up for any pangs of longing. The Jitte provides removal (something blue is not noted for) at a very minor conflict with Chalice at 2. I am hoping, however, that the Counterbalance decks stop their ominous trend toward including more 3cc cards, Trygon Predator & Rhox War Monk especially. Stop it! Or at least wait until after Chicago, damn you.

scrumdogg
02-18-2009, 08:58 AM
Yup 61, that is one of the ways I can squeak in the extra land. As much as having a toolbox gives me a comfort zone (old fashioned toolbox Survival player...) I agree that topdecking random non-offensive things can be bad Game 1. I would never take out the EE, however, as it is one of the mechanisms which allow the deck to stabilize. The Mox Diamond has limped along for every time it shined, inconclusive to date, but I can't shake the feeling that EE for two is worth any possible disadvantage. The Ruins has also been inconclusive, mostly because it is random when it appears. Most often I am irritated that it doesn't produce blue or gets locked under a Back to Basics, however, since it would probably get either get cut or become an Island, the utility to date has been nice. Getting back equipment or Chalice (or Seat, and at some point Esperzoa) allows me to resume what my opponent has disrupted. Slow? Yes. Worth it? Still evaluating. The Sword of Fire & Ice is a fine card, and I don't believe that the more traditional builds running three are bad, in fact I would love to fit more - but I categorically believe that Sword of Light & Shadow is a better card. Furthermore, I wouldn't take out a Sigil for another (fetchability plus reasons stated in previous posts in this page by several people) and the removal & utility aspect of Jitte (plus the one mana less to cast & equip) is superior to SOFI in my opinion. So, what would I drop to add more SOFI? One is fine, but unless the Pro-Red/Blue is relevant, I often find myself sideboarding it out for relevant hate since it is one of the easier cuts to find from the MD.

Kuma
02-21-2009, 01:17 PM
Sigil isn't a bad card, but I can't justify the slot in the deck. It's only useful in very narrow situations, such as when you have 6+ mana on the board and a Trinket Mage. I never liked seeing it in my opening hand or in the first few turns of the game. I count almost any opening seven that has a Sigil as a six card hand. Besides, in most matchups we'd rather be Trinketing for a Chalice, Needle, Crypt, or Mox.

Why would you run Sigil over a SoFI, SoLS, or Jitte? All of those cards make Trinket Mage a late game threat. They're also way more versatile.

Also, run Jitte's in the main. They're awesome against Thresh, Merfolk, Landstill, Zoo, and random jank, which are four of our worst matchups.

I'm back to the 3/3 SoFI/SoLS split. What I've come to realize is that SoFI is an early game card and SoLS is a lategame card. When I ran the 2/4 split I'd have the SoLS early and the SoFI late. The 3/3 split also means you're more likely to have both swords over the course of the game instead of multiple SoLS.

I've fought against running eight equipment in the maindeck for a long time, but I've come to the conclusion that more equipment is exactly what Faerie Stompy needs. Equipment turns our 2/2s into scary threats and forces our opponent to deal with every creature we draw.

I don't think anything other than a 3 SoFI, 3 SoLS, 2 Jitte equipment package is correct for the metagame at large.

My current list:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
9x Island

4x Sea Drake
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Trinket Mage
3x Mulldrifter
3x Pestermite
3x Sower of Temptation
1x Shoreline Ranger

4x Force of Will
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
3x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Pithing Needle

Sideboard:
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Mulldrifter
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Pithing Needle
4x Back to Basics
3x Glen Elendra Archmage

Yes, I said I'd cut all the Serendibs before I'd cut any Pestermites, but what Faerie Stompy needs is big creatures. That extra +1/+3 over Pestermite is invaluable against Burn and decks running smaller creatures.

@sasa_batora

I debated cutting the maindeck Needle, but it's too good against too many of our bad matchups. The matchups it's bad in tend to be better for us than the ones it's good in.

scrumdogg
02-21-2009, 02:48 PM
Having never played with (or wanted to play with...) Shoreline Ranger, honestly, has it ever been cast as a creature? If so, did it make a difference at that point? Or not? I can't imagine not simply running this as an extra blue source (probably an Island) as spending :2: and either losing 2 life or losing that land (in all probability) seems absolutely horrible, both in terms of tempo & resource management (forget the other possibilities, like Stifle). The reasons we don't play fetches is to avoid nonsense like that, but given the abominable manabase of many versions of this deck, Shoreline Ranger sees play. So, please, satisfy my curiousity, has SR ever seen play (useful play would be better...) as a creature?

Eldariel
02-21-2009, 03:45 PM
I've won a number of games where both players are out of cards with a Shoreline. The quality of the threat doesn't matter as long as opponent has no answer. Also a number of games where I keep a Stax-hand and lock opponent out and I need a beater. Mostly I imprint/pitch it though (and sometimes I've done SoLS recursion for lands).

In fact, I never intended on hardcasting it. I wanted it as an Island that pitches. It's actually been better than I expected; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to cut it.

Kuma
02-21-2009, 04:03 PM
Sigil is a card that helps win the stalls, exactly as any other equipment does.

Then why run it over other more flexible equipment?


With only four mana (which are not unheard of - doubleland, Mox, Isl.) we can Giant Growth our beast for the rest of the game.

Playing and equipping Jitte seems better most of the time.


Sigil is good way to sink unused mana.

So is Staff of Domination.


There is difference between 2/2 and 5/5 flying beasts. Also - sometimes you cannot swing even with Jitte or SoXY, because opposing blocker (read:Goyf) would kill the attacker (namely Trinket Mage, but also Mite/Drifter into T-stalker is not very funny). Even if we kill the blocker with counters from Jitte, we still lose the attacker.. and again: even with our 20+ creatures, this is nothing we can wish.

I think you're overstating the problem. First of all, our creatures rarely get blocked because they all fly. Second, the protection from the Swords makes it even harder to block our creatures. Third, if given the opportunity we almost always want to trade one of our creatures for one of theirs. We run more creatures than most decks. And SoLS helps ensure we have creatures in the lategame. FWIW, we also have Sowers to steal problem blockers.

Getting blocked is not a common problem with Faerie Stompy.


Sigil easily strenghtens the kritter beyond the numbers of the blocker, so now we can swing, while the threat of a great life-loss (3/4 + Sigil:4-1 = 6/7) forces the opponent to chump. Next turn we still got our beast.

Putting a Sword or Jitte on a creature usually has the same effect. If your argument is that Sigil makes Trinket Mages scarier than Swords and Jitte, you're right, but it's not like we often need Trinket Mages to be especially scary. They're really a utility slot that can beat sometimes.


Sigil is in no way superior to any other of our equipments, but it supplements their numbers very well.

If it's inferior to our other equipment, then why run it? I don't buy the diversity arguement, because the situations in which a Sigil trumps a Sword or Jitte are rare.


(Sometimes we dont wanna another Chalice - e.g. we have both Cotv:1+2, or we need to win right now, rather than lock.) It is also very useful from the top, esp. because unworried opponent now stares at great beast rather than little nerd.

Again, these situations are very rare. I almost never have a Chalice at one and two down, and if I do I probably don't need a Sigil to finish my opponent off.

You can't tell me you need Sigil more often than Chalice, Needle, Mox, and Crypt.


I REALLY liked it, because with those numbers you are sure to draw one, you are sure to have the right protection and to dominate the game via triggers/activations.

Seems like a good reason to run the 3/3/2 split.


But the deck is a bit mana expensive and it also becomes more hulky, so I prefer the 2/2/2/1 split.

Isn't Sigil the most mana intensive card of all the equipment? I guess not if you have to re-equip lots, but I usually don't.


And Sinkhole/Port is not your friend when playing with too many Swords, not to mention that against deck packing Port (hint, hint: green little men..) you rather get Jitte than SoLS (unless on some occasion like Rw Gobos with StP and low-on-creature hands..).

I know there's lots of gobbos in your meta, but the extra equpiment is better in more matches. The decks I mentioned in my last post are more common than Sinkhole/Port.


Love this deck :smile:

EDIT: People, I really love this deck!!! YEAARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!

Me too. :smile:


Having never played with (or wanted to play with...) Shoreline Ranger, honestly, has it ever been cast as a creature? If so, did it make a difference at that point? Or not? I can't imagine not simply running this as an extra blue source (probably an Island) as spending :2: and either losing 2 life or losing that land (in all probability) seems absolutely horrible, both in terms of tempo & resource management (forget the other possibilities, like Stifle). The reasons we don't play fetches is to avoid nonsense like that, but given the abominable manabase of many versions of this deck, Shoreline Ranger sees play. So, please, satisfy my curiousity, has SR ever seen play (useful play would be better...) as a creature?

I can think of one game I won because I cast Shoreline Ranger as a beater. I can think of a few others where casting it helped. You can also sometimes recurr it with SoLS. Shoreline Ranger is a much better late game topdeck than an Island, and he only shows up in 1-1.5% of your opening hands. The extra blue count is helpful for Mox and FoW, too.

It's really a marginal call. It's probably around 55/45 for times I was glad for the Shoreline and times I wished he was an Island. If you prefer the extra land, it's not a big deal.

Eldariel
02-21-2009, 04:39 PM
Then why run it over other more flexible equipment? Playing and equipping Jitte seems better most of the time.

Better all the time. But a rather common scenario:
-You're topdecking after expending your controllish hand fighting the opponent. You find Trinket Mage. Now, if your deck has Sigil, you can get offensive with it (especially when such draws are generally accompanied by a healthy dose of lands). If you don't, best you can do is get a lockpiece and try to beat with a 2/2.
-Some guys are bigger than your guys (Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, etc.). Being able to play Trinket and boosting your guys to swing into them and block
-Opponent plays UWx Landstill and you expect a Humility in near future. The only way you can really beat through it is equipment so what you need to do acquire as many as you can. In this case, you should fetch for Sigil even if you have other equipment since sticking one will win you the game while not will lose it for you.
-You only have 3 mana and need extra power on the next turn.
-Opponent has a Needle and you need additional equipment.
-Opponent has artifact removal and you need equipment.

Basically, it makes Trinket able to act as an aggressive threat. It also gives you a tutorable piece of equipment. After some more testing, I've come to the conclusion that it definitely belongs as a 1-of and no more. I'm not especially unhappy to draw it off the top either (indeed, sometimes it's the best piece of equipment in the deck), but usually I'd want a Sword/Jitte instead so I find exactly 1 the correct number. Being able to tutor for equipment is just huge in so many scenarios it's not even funny.


So is Staff of Domination.

But Sigil is tutorable so you can get it when you need it rather than at random scenarios. Also, unlike most other manasinks, it's perfectly ok to play at 3 if you're tight on mana. Sigil's versatility means that it's only a manasink when you're flooded. Otherwise it's just another piece of equipment.

Kuma
02-22-2009, 03:19 PM
Better all the time.

So what you're saying is that Sigil isn't better than Jitte, but it is sometimes better than our Swords?


<common situations>

I'm not saying you'd never want a Sigil. But I don't think your situations are as common as you say. Most of them are solved by running lots of equipment, period. Most of these situations also involve you topdecking a Trinket Mage which makes them less likely to come up.

I've missed Sigil maybe once every two tournaments since I cut it. Maybe a little more often, I dunno. Maybe your experience is different and you use it to great effect several times per tournament.


Basically, it makes Trinket able to act as an aggressive threat.

I understand the cards purpose. I just haven't often needed Trinket Mage to go the distance with no other equipment on the board.


But Sigil is tutorable so you can get it when you need it rather than at random scenarios. Also, unlike most other manasinks, it's perfectly ok to play at 3 if you're tight on mana. Sigil's versatility means that it's only a manasink when you're flooded. Otherwise it's just another piece of equipment.

I was being facetious. I could have used Sensei's Divining Top in my example, but I wanted to drive home the point that running a card as a mana sink is a bad idea, especially in a deck that rarely has lots of spare mana.


Yes, Jitte is better than Sigil and most of the times it will cost less to equip and play, but we cannot play three or four Jittes, because legend rule will many times screw us.

I've never suggested running more than two Jittes for that very reason. I know you're not a huge fan of Swords. That's a personal preference. My point was I'm almost never unhappy to see a Sword, where most every time I draw a Sigil I wish it was something else (often a Sword).


If you look at scrummdoggs list, you find that he plays exactly the same number of Swords, although in different combination, and his list uses even more lands than mine. The reason is same - to make the deck more fluent, even if we lose a bit of raw power. (Sword is stronger than Island. but it is of no use, if I cannot play it.)

I don't think replacing equpiment with Islands/Seats is the right way to take the deck. You may mulligan less, but a lot of your now keepable hands will be slow because you have to play stuff off of Islands. Or you'll have lots of land and not enough to do with it. I think it's better to live dangerously and mulligan smart. I've got some amazing five card hands where I dropped a Drake turns one and two. I've played some damn good games of Magic off four card hands. Inconsistency is not the enemy. Fear of inconsistency is the enemy.

Once you get over the fact that Faerie Stompy is going to take a huge dump on you in at least one game every tournament or so, you realize that it mulligans pretty well and gives you the cards you need to play a good game of Magic against any deck in the format. Like Tacosnape said, no deck actively wants to be paired against Faerie Stompy.


Many decks pack Crypt, EE, Relic, etc. main, but these cards are more often than not dead draws. I want a card that is always useful and Sigil however horrible it is, is still a good choice.

This is a good point. These cards are sometimes useless, while Sigil is almost never useless. My problem is the above cards are extremely useful in more situations than Sigil.


One last note: You may even find that I always wrote about it as a first card to side out. This does not mean that the card is just a filler.

Well, no it doesn't, but the reason I decided to try cutting Sigil is that it was always the first card I sided out. You've got to think hard about the usefulness and power of the cards that quickly find their way into the sideboard games two and three.


I dont think it is useful to debate that one slot in the deck. More courageous chnges, like the one done by Eldariel in the past (removing CoF and Jitte, adding Swords), or that of scrummdogg (How many cards were changed? Six main? New approach in flying brain for :2::u: I am lazy to search? ITEOC?) These are the points where a relevant and interesting discussion can start.

I've made myself known on how I feel about Esperzoa. ITEOC is an interesting call, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that Trinisphere is better in the matchups you'd side it in for. What ITEOC has going for it is that it makes FoW impossible to cast instead of very difficult, and it makes Krosan Grip nearly useless, all while pitching to FoW and Mox. Combo can't win with Trinisphere on the table. It can win through ITEOC. Trinisphere hurts sorceries, small creatures, and cheap artifacts, ITEOC does nothing to them. You'll trip over your own Trinisphere more often than your ITEOC, but your opponents will be hurting even more.


I write this with all the veneration towards you. I dont wanna start any flame over this piece of crap. For me the question of Sigil is closed, because it only "a small village in the war and the country is full of them."

Peace, Sasa

True, true. I meant no disrespect or anger in my previous post, and I respect your input on Faerie Stompy. After re-reading my last post, I came off a little harsher than I intended to, and for that I apologize.

Don't feel like you have to reply to this if you have other things you need to be doing. Sometimes we need to remember that as much as we love it, Magic is just a game.

scrumdogg
02-22-2009, 05:00 PM
OK, fair enough on the Shoreline, maybe I'll try it over the second Seat, although it still bothers me... As for Sigil, I believe we are going to have to agree to disagree (if we disagree). One of the most appealing aspects to Legacy, imho, is the ability to build different versions of a deck & not necessarily be right/wrong. Especially given how meta-depepndent most builds are & there is nothing close to how established the 'meta' becomes in Extended or Standard.

Quick reports for today - 3-1, Top 4 split.

Round 1 vs John with Belcher (oh, and I traded for the 4th In The Eye of Chaos for the tournament & removed the remaining BEBs for ITEOC #4 & 2 more EE). We were discussing matchups before the tourney & he is not happy seeing my deck, especially since I run MD EE. I had stated that game 1 I basically mull to FoW. He wins the Rock-Paper-Scissors (yay Unglued cards) :cool:, keeps, I keep (no FoW but I do have the EE & Ancient Tomb). I keep immediately & he winces. He goes off, makes a bazillion Goblins, I show him the EE at EOT, he puts crying on the stack...especially since he could have gone Belcher :cool: Psych... Drop the Tomb & EE, wreck his board, drop Mox Diamond pitching an island go.
Turn 2 drop one of the 2 Sea Drakes in my hand, turn 3 drop the other, turn 4 drop an Esperzoa as insurance, proceed to Game 2. In 2x EE, 4x ITEOC, out 3x Sower, SOFI, 2x SOLAS. I keep a hand with both FoW, blue card and EE...downright unfair. He blows 4 cards into an attempted Belcher, FoW. Turn 2 drop Serendib, Turn 3 drop equipment, Turn 4 equip, do bad things in his naughty places.
1-0 2-0

Round 2 versus Roddy & his infamous Sliver-Survival.
Game one lose the die roll & keep a hand with FoW, 2 Islands and a host of good 3cc+ cards....never draw another mana source and scoop it up turn 6-7. In 3x B2B 1x Jitte 2x EE Out 3x Sower 1x SOFI 2x SOLAS. Turn 1 drop Sea Drake (Mox & Ancient Tomb), turn 2 topdeck another Tomb, play it, drop Sigil for 5, equip, swing 8. Yeah, that one ended quickly. Game 3 he drops 2 duals & a Muscle Sliver by Turn 2, I have 2 Islands & a Mox Diamond ditching another Island & B2B. He gets another couple duals & plays a Sinew Sliver but I drop Serendib to stop his attacking. Then I drop the Jitte I've been holding, equip turn after. I drop a Trinket Mage to get a Chalice (for 1, to stop Vial if he gets it) and trade the Mage & a counter for a Sliver (the other counters had gone to whack his Gemhide that he played (although he finally got a fetch for a basic Forest). SOLAS comes down to add insult to injury & Roddy dies on Turn 9 having never missed a land drop (with 19 lands...). Some luck? Absolutely, but by the end of the game, the other two B2B were in my hand.
2-0 4-1

Round 3 versus Brent with ITF...he always plays a control deck and always kicks my teeth in... Game 1 I get some pressure but he forces through Deed, restarts me, and drops a Goyf...close. In 3x Gilded Drake 1x Jitte Out 1 Chrome Mox, 1x SoFI, 2x Esperzoa. Same verse, same as the first, although I make a play mistake that might have made the difference this game when I played around double Daze when dropping a Sigil for 5 that should have been a Sigil for 6 with one floating, instead of that Tomb tapping. Even had I burned for 1 on top of the Tomb my Trinket Mage would have been 7/7 instead of 6/6 facing his lone Goyf (he STp'ed my Mulldrifter when I equipped Mage, I figured he had STP) with him at 6, meaning he couldn't have attacked & blocking would have been fatal. Instead I can't block, & he topdecks another Goyf....yeah, that didn't end well.... Oh well, live & learn :cool:
2-1 4-3

Round 4 I would have gotten paired down to play Greg with mono-black, but he dropped without marking it (I have beaten his deck before anyway). Get in a bunch of good discussion & some more trades.

Very successful trading day, btw, including the ITEOC, Imperial Recruiter, Progenitus & a couple Sharuum. Esperzoas & Ruins were never a factor one way or the other all day, nor did the Seats ever show up, but the Mox Diamond was effing fantastic all day today. Game 3 vs Slivers I had the ability to get EE at 2 and would have had Jitte not accomplished the same goal (but given how often he gets Crystalline & SotF, the back up was very comforting). If I could have pulled that versus brent on his Goyfs (what killed me both games) I believe I would have recovered quicker. Always had a land to sac to Mox Diamond today & didn't regret it (although Deed from ITF would have hurt). This is one of the decks I'm bringing to Chicago, but if I see the Oh Gawd Hallelujah! Landstill Revival in progress I am benching it so fast it won't have time to pout, sulk or call it's aganet & demand a trade....

Dr. DOOM
02-26-2009, 03:56 AM
Jetfightertestpilot:
Thanks to unknown Sourcer for the above seen manner of protocol, me liking a lot... :)


Haha that was me, it was my deckname for the Dutch Legacy Champs :laugh:

scrumdogg
02-27-2009, 12:38 PM
I feel the need for input on sideboarding specifically for the GP. I'm unsure on what will show, although there should be a ton of aggro-control & CB-Top. I'm not (very) concerned about combo between A) absolute numbers (should be low) and current configuration (COTV, FoW, ITEOC, even EE if they go for the Warrens route). I like my matchups with Thresh (the 4cc has been improved by the added Jittes, thankfully), Dreadstill & Team America. I'm comfortable playing against Sui & Eva Green style decks. Goblins is a coin toss, but I'll take my chances on outplaying them in the long game, the extra EEs and the added Jittes give me more control options than previous incarnations. Landstill remains a nightmare, but if I see that in abundance Friday, this deck gets audibled quickly. I'm also hoping Merfolk doesn't make a surprise invasion in numbers, but since this isn't a 12 proxy Italian event, I'm probably safe (see also, extra EEs & Jittes improving odds, although island-walk is scary). Ichorid is scary but (hopefully) low population, the same with NO Progenitus...but I don't have much to deal with either. I have almost as little to deal with Elves! of any variety. Would it be worth including at least a one of graveyard hate in the SB, either Crypt or Relic, since I can tutor it up with Trinket Mage? Also, given that Tarmogoyf is OK, Threshold seems to have been accepted by a few players, and green critters sometimes show up at tournaments, including guys with Shroud (or equivalent), would a set of Hibernation be prudent & possibly techy or desperate & reeking of The Fear?

Current SB, for reference
4x In The Eye of Chaos
3x Back to Basics
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Gilded Drake
2x I can't remember, am at work & can't check, will edit later >.<

Kuma
02-27-2009, 01:45 PM
I run 3x Pithing Needle (last in maindeck) and 4x Back to Basics in my sideboard. This has really helped with the Landstill/board control matchups to the point where I actually don't worry about the matchup.

Merfolk is rough, but the extra needles help to slow them down since Chalice is an iffy card in the matchup. They're great vs Goblins on the draw too.

2x Engineered Explosives seems odd to me since it's very difficult to cast at two and it's Trinketable. I'd go to one.

Hibernation would just be overcosted bounce. I'd leave it out. Relic/Sowers/Drakes should be plenty to deal with goyf.

I wouldn't worry about Elves! between Chalice, EE, Jitte, SoFI, and FoW.

IIRC, you run Crypt in the main, so I wouldn't say running another Crypt/Relic is necessary, but it couldn't hurt. You've got to be careful with Relic since we've often got a Chalice at one down vs decks running Tarmogoyf. It's still a great card vs Team America (Chalice at one is weak here), ITF, Aggro Loam, Loam in general, Dredge, and a few other random decks.

The last sideboard I posted is what I'm going to run for the GP with possibly some minor changes.

I've always meant to ask this, but why three Gilded Drake in the board? Do you really need six creature stealers especially when three of them give your opponents 3/3 fliers?