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View Full Version : [Article] Unlocking Legacy: A Modern Goblins Primer, Part I



Bardo
04-05-2007, 09:15 AM
Link. (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13965.html)


Generally, Goblins' strategy revolves around finding some way of cheating mana costs, and then executing creature and mana disruption at the same time. This can take many different forms, and sometimes only exactly the right balance between threats and disruption will work.

Tacosnape
04-05-2007, 01:13 PM
I like the stuff on the Goblin manabase. Solid work.

Beyond that, though, this article managed to go through its entirety without actually saying anything. It seemed excessive on rhetoric.

Michael Keller
04-05-2007, 01:37 PM
I like the stuff on the Goblin manabase. Solid work.

Beyond that, though, this article managed to go through its entirety without actually saying anything. It seemed excessive on rhetoric.

I don't want to be over-analytical, so I'll be straight to the point: I have a great deal of respect for people who write informative and constructive pieces. While reading the article, I too felt it was more than a social commentary than primer work (not to take anything away from his explanations, which I felt were both thorough and informative). It seemed to drag on at times, as parts of the article felt written as filler. Call me a cynic, but that's just the way I comprehend it.

6/10

Bongo
04-05-2007, 04:12 PM
I'm thankful that you took the time to write this much needed primer.

However, like the previous posters, I found the article rather lacking for something which calls itself a Primer.


First, I would have liked you to go a bit more in-depth about the construction of the deck, specifically about the omissions of certain cards.
While everyone agrees that Warchief is good, why is Mogg War Marshal or Skirk Prospector not worthy of a slot? Why is Sharpshooter and Pyromancer not included anymore? Is Goblin Lookout better than Pyromancer?
What consequences does the weak 2cc spot in the manacurve have on the deck?
In what kind of a metagame do you splash (especially the Green splash with Tin-Street Hooligan would have been very interesting)? What do you do about the conflict it creates with non-Goblin cards? Is there a mathematically acceptable number of non-Goblin cards?

Those were the kind of questions I'd like to get answered by a Primer.


Second, the Manabase discussion. A big factor you didn't consider were the hidden cost of Fetchlands. The lifeloss, Stifle, and narrow stuff like Mishra's Ankh or Rootmaze cost you the game sometimes.
After playing with Fetches for a long time, I've come to the conclusion that the percentage points are not worth the hidden costs, especially the lifeloss and Stifle. There were quite a few games where I would have won if I didn't "start" the game with 16 life, or if my Fetch didn't get Stifled.

3 life for a 0.15% gain? I don't think that's worth it anymore.

While you don't have to agree, it would have been nice if you mentioned the no-Fetch side of the argument.


Actually, there is a Vial Goblins primer: http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=626521&sid=e7698fd1f76ad411f613baca07483b81

The "General Tips on Playing" part is really good, and I hope you write about similar techniques in your second part.


-Bongo

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-05-2007, 04:25 PM
I, too, felt that the article just abruptly cut off when it was building up some steam towards some really relevant information. This isn't really a Goblins Primer at all. It's like, almost as if it were Part I of a series that was going to lead into more in-depth analysis or something. Almost.


Bracketbackslashsarcasmbracket.


Although I'm not sure what Machinus's fascination with Tinkerer is about. Tin Street is umpteen times better.

Bardo
04-05-2007, 04:40 PM
Given this is only part 1, I think people should suspend their judgement until they've read the whole thing.

Citrus-God
04-05-2007, 07:42 PM
Personally, I loved it so far. I thought the Goblins primer was awesome, and that Machinus should keep writing on it. Goblins is a very complex deck to understand but has the most savage synergies ever. I would like to keep seeing his work.

Bane of the Living
04-07-2007, 01:16 PM
Although I'm not sure what Machinus's fascination with Tinkerer is about. Tin Street is umpteen times better.

QFT Why I remember the day you clammered on about him in the Gob thread when he was released. We all laughed at you Mr Bear.

Chris why would you ask us what to write about if your just gonna go on about goblins more? I dont think a single one of us replied, "Give us more about goblins and what its been doing the same for the past 2 years!" Since this is only part one Im hoping part 2 is short or has more to do with the evolution of goblins. If decks like TES are picking up popularity maybe you should talk about changing the maindeck of gobs to combat that.

Im really pissed your writing more pro goblin propaganda right before GP btw. Thats all I need is a hundred more people switching to the deck last minute because of these articles.

Bardo
04-07-2007, 02:33 PM
I'm really pissed your writing more pro goblin propaganda right before GP btw. Thats all I need is a hundred more people switching to the deck last minute because of these articles.

Far and away Goblins has the best performance in the format since it started; the most T8s of any deck, the most first place finishes. In short, the deck is really fucking good. Whereas your comment implies that Chris is hyping some piece of shit in an effort to distort the field and give him and those "in the know" an advantage.

While it was sorta tongue-in-cheek, PTW (Mark Perez) did the same sort of thing prior to one of the SCG P9 events, where he made this thorough analysis of how 9-land Stompy was the Deck to Play. It was all bullshit, but it was funny if you know what PTW's about. Anyway, nothing could be further from the truth: vis-a-vis, your comment to Machinus.


Chris why would you ask us what to write about if your just gonna go on about goblins more? I dont think a single one of us replied, "Give us more about goblins and what its been doing the same for the past 2 years!

We all want to know what topics you're interested in, but that doesn't mean we're going to write about them. Basically, we're trying to gauge public opinion, but remember that the MTS/TMD is only one part of SCG's audience. That's just my opinion and Chris and the other may feel entirely different on this point.

For my own part, I'm just going to write about whatever I'm excited and interested in and can only hope that it works for you and everyone else. I think that's the only way to write in this kind of environment, where you deadlines and shit like that. We'd all lose interest in this thing if we were forced to write about what you want to see. That's the fact of the matter.

Shriekmaw
04-07-2007, 02:36 PM
Im really pissed your writing more pro goblin propaganda right before GP btw. Thats all I need is a hundred more people switching to the deck last minute because of these articles.


Players will not be switching to goblins because of this article. They would be switching because Vial Goblins is the best deck in the format. Usually people tend to lean toward playing the best deck in the format.

Bane of the Living
04-07-2007, 04:30 PM
I didnt say Chris was hyping a bad deck. He's hyping the best deck in the format, exactly! I really hate playing against Goblins. Its just fuckin boring to constantly see the thing. Do you always want to play against the best deck? Writing this primer right before the GP will surely deter some people from playing their homebrews. Teaching a noob (legacy concerned) with a 1900 constructed rating how to play goblins as a terrible idea. People that play standard are getting awarded with byes in our format, alot of those players will probably rip a deck right off SCG's main page. Goblins will be all over. You might as well have smothered the title "Easiest Deck to Play!" directly over the title.

For what its worth it was written very well. I enjoy what each of you write for articles but I wish you could help to take focus away from goblins rather than divert it there. =(

Citrus-God
04-07-2007, 04:32 PM
Players will not be switching to goblins because of this article. They would be switching because Vial Goblins is the best deck in the format. Usually people tend to lean toward playing the best deck in the format.

The may be somewhat true, but people tend to have diffculty understanding the, so they built it wrong, ot made it too vaunerable if their Lackeys/Vials got answered. People run Sharpshooters, Skirk Prospecter, and Kiki-Jiki without realizing how it can screw them over, because they took most of their examples from old Extended rather than the modern T1.5 builds.

I realized Machinus didnt write a whole lot about Tinker/Tin Street Hooligan, but it's also worth noting that he runs the solely becuase he wants an edge in the Threshold Match-Up. I can understand why he would do such a thing, and run such a meta-dependent card. All the games I can recall I lost was because of Tinkerer sadly.

Bardo
04-07-2007, 04:41 PM
Writing this primer right before the GP will surely deter some people from playing their homebrews.

At the same time, it would be twisted for Chris to want to write about Goblins, a deck he is a certifiable expert with, and then write about something else just to discourage people from the Best Deck.

To wit, it's not our job to willfully misdirect the community on anything. That would be completely irresponsible and a vicious insult to the readership.

There will no doubt be a time when absolute horseshit is written (though I hope not), but I can tell you that it will never been done deliberately.

Machinus
04-08-2007, 12:30 AM
You might as well have smothered the title "Easiest Deck to Play!" directly over the title.

You do not see the true effect this discussion will have on the format. I am explaining to the Legacy community how Goblins works and what resources Goblins players care about. Do you see where this will lead?

This analysis is something that benefits everyone but the Goblins players, who have already achieved their position of dominance, and can only become weakened by educated and knowledgeable deckbuilders and players.

And if you are worried about Goblins being popular I can only assume you have not followed the format for the past two years where it has been, at every tournament, the most popular deck. It would not be possible to "hype" this deck at this point in time.