[Deck] Vaka Pox [Archive] - Page 2

chocomel

04-23-2008, 04:37 AM

This is my latest list:
// Lands
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Swamp (1)
4 [U] Scrubland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [B] Sinkhole
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [AP] Vindicate
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [TO] Rancid Earth
2 [US] Duress

While finding pox a little bit to suicidal against aggro I decided to drop it for extra land destruction in the form of rancid earth.
I really like playing with r. earth, it has great synergie with ghostly prison and from time to time it kills some small creatures when having treshhold.
Cutting my 4 poxes gave me the opportunity to cut an extra crucible; 3 felt just like to many and to many times i see myself boarding it out against aggro, but since its great against stax i decided to keep one in my sideboard.
In many games you just start swamp, go.
I wanted some more action turn1 so I brought in 2 sensei's diving tops and put 1 extra duress in, i still don't know which i like better so still play 2 duress 3 thoughtseize.

With the lack of poxes i was having trouble with my urborg, but as much as i like it, i had to drop it to 3, there was just to little discard outlets. I put in an extra swamp just to run a basic more.

3 tomstalkers are sufficient for me, while seeing often 2 in a game and unable to cast the second one it felt kind of useless and i droped 1
7 kills aren't enough so i put the nether spirits back in, 2 seem to be the right number and i don't think i need more of them

Clark Kant

04-23-2008, 04:46 AM

That's a cool looking list. If you're not playing Pox, there is no reason to run more than 3 Urborgs anyways.

I do think you are making a big mistake cutting Pox entirely from the deck.

Pox kills a creature, a land and disrupts their hand heavily. It doesn't effect you as badly.

You can also time it to maximize how many things they lose.

Pox also provides a critical discard outlet for Nether Spirit. Without Pox, I see little reason to play Nether Spirit at all.

And Pox feeds the yard for Tombstalker too. I couldn't go below 3 Pox.

At the very least, I would go...
-2 Duress
-2 Nether Spirit
+2 Pox
+1 Rancid Earth
+1 Tombstalker

Also, I see no reason not to cut a swamp to run the full eight fetchlands...

They combo with Sensei's Top
They combo with Crucible
They feed the yard for Tombstalker
They bring you up to 12 white sources which is critical to playing Ghostly Prison/Vindicate early when needed.

rleader

04-23-2008, 01:01 PM

^ I agree; I think 2 poxes should be a good minimum. I've considered dropping to 3, but I'm on the fence.

mujadaddy

04-23-2008, 01:05 PM

mono:b: perspective -- I've dropped to 2 Pox recently. They're useful, but not useful every game. They're generally among the cards that get sideboarded out for tough matches.

chocomel

04-23-2008, 02:53 PM

I don't think only relying on tombstalkers only (except factory's but that takes ages) is a good idea; they'll board in gy-hate game 2 and you're pretty screwed if they extirpate one.
I really like to keep at least 3 basic lands because dragon stompy is played a lot around here, and you need at least 2 BB.

I'll test again with with 2 pox mainboard, but it weakends your worst matchup, against aggro.
In my experience you don't want to wait before they have 4 creatures to pox 2 of them away because the damage can add up to lethal values.
But if they have 2 creatures, and you'll pox 1 away your at 13 lives...
So if they have a goyf or a confidant left, you have to be very lucky to remove them next turn and hope they won't play anything else.
On top of that the meta here is packed with aggro and aggro control and because of that i see myself always boarding out my poxes game 2.
So that's why I decided to remove them from my list.

Why do you want to remove the 2 durresses?
They'll give you more to play in turn 1 and make the combo matchup more favourable game 1?

Arne

05-06-2008, 04:12 AM

I'm with Chocomel on this one. I also don't play pox anymore. I simply find it to be a card you have to wait for to play. Against aggro you have to wait before they get their fourth creature to get some real results, but by the time they do get their 4th, you're pretty much screwed. When your opponent has three lands, three creatures and/or three cards, pox is nothing more than a smallpox with the con of you losing a lot of life (which, obviously, can be devastating against aggro). But I also think it's a metagame call. I think the Dutch metagame (in which chocomel and I participate) differs from your meta game.

I also like rancid earth. I haven't played it but I think i'm gonna test it.

This is my list.

2 urborg, tomb oy yawgmoth
6 black based fetch
2 scrubland
3 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 tomb of urami
3 mishra's factory
3 tombstalker
2 nether spirit
3 dark ritual
4 duress
4 innocent blood
4 smallpox
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
2 smother
3 vindicate
3 crucible of worlds
2 sensei's divining top

I'm also trying to get my hands on a playset of thoughtseizes. Since I don't play pox, i don't mind the lifeloss a lot.

Dark_Cynic87

05-07-2008, 04:26 AM

I've been trying out Humility. This allows you to gain some serious synergy in the deck with both Rancid Earth and a new-comer, Darkblast. Recurrable removal that kills every/anything. There is also Cabal Pit to act as removal if you are in a Factory-Lock. Stax and landstill both rival the amount of lands you play, and hit their land-drops just as consistantly as you do. They also have quite a bit of draw, not to mention Crucible, so they can recover just as well as you can. Clearly this is better against aggro and other creature-oriented decks, but still really slows down Thresh critters. Also, your factories stay big (2/2) under a Humility (though I'm sure you knew this). Is Suppression Field still a solid SB choice? Seems really good in the format right now as everyone is using fetches to hold together their mana bases. Seems really good against combo (FT), thresh, 4-c landstill, and etc.

I'll post my list later.

Pce,

--DC

Arne

05-07-2008, 01:00 PM

call me sentimental:) But I'd hate to lose being able to swing with my 5/5 demon ;) I like the idea though :D

maybe I'll give it a try. The synnergy with darkblast and rancid earth seems nice enough. The synnergy between darkblast and rancid earth together is nice as well ;)

EDIT

on the other hand, Pox is a pretty active deck. It causes your opponents to discard, to sac and whatnot. It's not a reactive deck. I mean, you don't have any ways to keep your humility from being destroyed or removed once your opponent has a disenchant. It might be a little vulnerable.. but I say; let's try it :D

Clark Kant

05-07-2008, 10:13 PM

lillelassie

05-09-2008, 05:22 PM

Just our of curiosity:
Is "The Rack" considered a weak card in Pox decks? I always thougth it shined as I often found BOTH me and my opponent in topdecking mode, then having a Rack on the table is nice, thus creating a lose-lose situation for my opponent.

Also vs. Tarmogoyf, Goose etc. have you considered Meekstone out of board? shust those creatures down, but let your Nether Spirits and Idols get through anyway. As you might have guessed I'm not a big fan of Tombstalker.

Dark_Cynic87

05-09-2008, 07:41 PM

IMO Ghostly Prison >>> Humility in this deck. If aggro concerns you, go up to 4 Ghostly Prison. Ghostly Prison gets better in multiples afterall.

With the massive amount of land destruction you run, 22-24 minimum. Ghostly Prison costs one less mana to cast which is huge. It also lets you get away with playing Tombstalker, which is also huge in this deck. And you don't have worry about pesky 1/1s or running crappy cards like Darkblast (Darkblast was good when all the aggro creatures were goblins and confidants, but it sucks now that goyf, dreadnought, tombstalker and fairie/dragon stompy have replaced all other aggro decks). Also the double white mana requirement of humilty is a problem too.

Your logic is way off. You just said that I'm using Humility for against aggro. However, in an aggro deck, a lot of their creatures are small, or at least small-ish. Humility would NOT be what you would pick, you would pick Prison (say, Goblins for instance). With Tombstalker, you are right, you don't have to worry about their 1/1's, but have you noticed the use of Sea Drake in UGx Thresh builds? At least in my area, and I've heard that in other places it's becoming a trend ($40 dollar creatures are indeed a trend, as this should not be). Humility is a better choice against Goyf and bigger creatures, which is what the metagame is atm. You still have Darkblast against Aggro creatures, so it's a moot point anyway. Darkblast now takes out a goyf, as does a manland or a Cabal Pit. A Thresh'ed Rancid Earth now becomes a 3cc Damnation that also wipes out a land. That seems rediculous. Against aggro, it's just as potent. The additional W it costs to play it is trivial in my opinion, as it can be just as sufficient as a Pox when it comes to saving you from inevitability (read: goyf). Hell, it even makes Mongoose a much smaller threat. Sometimes there may be a chance you don't get to play it as you hit an early pox, but you can just discard it. There is really no reason to not playtest the idea. I'm testing with 3.

Pce,

--DC

Clark Kant

05-09-2008, 07:54 PM

The Rack is a win more card. There are some situations where it excels but you're usually winning anyways. On the otherhand, it does nothing to help get you to the winning position. It's a rather slow source of damage too, and doesn't have much utility. Even Chimeric Idol makes for a great blocker and helps advance you to a winning position. And regardless, it's been replaced by the far superior Tombstalker. By all means, if you like it, feel free to try it out yourself.

Also, there are many games where you empty out your opponents lands, and they are holding a fistful of cards but have nothing on the board to cast them. Stalker/Idol works great here. Hell even Black Vise is a huge bomb here. But The Rack does nothing. Card space is very valuble in this deck for situational tools IMO.

I haven't tested humility so please let me know if it works well.

But in my experience 3cc is the very top of the curve for Pox. If you have to get 4 lands on the board, you can oonly do that by not disrupting your opponent appropriately with Wastelands, Pox and Smallpox.

And double white is relevent actually.

My point was that Ghostly Prison has indeed been excellent even against those decks you speak of that play only a few big creatures. Further more, those are farily easy matchups for you thanks to your Pox effects. I honestly love playing against threshold with this deck.

Sims

05-09-2008, 08:01 PM

Hell even Black Vise is a huge bomb here. But The Rack does nothing.

Pardon my troll. But while I agree that the Rack is not a solid choice for pox decks in this format, the situation you described above is wrong. Rack does something in that it won't get you disqualified for playing banned cards in your deck. Jus' sayin'.

Clark Kant

05-10-2008, 09:07 AM

Lol, that wasn't my point

Here is some tourney winning pox lists if you're interested...

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Pox&format=Legacy

Dark_Cynic87

05-10-2008, 01:55 PM

Then drop in a Godless Shrine. Or a Plains (I know, unfetchable). Or try out Flagstones (has it been tested? I'm sure it has, but I am relatively new to the discussion of this deck). It's been my experience that Humility is a freakin' house. Way more so than Prison. Prison can be efficient, but a resolved Humility can be devestating to Thresh and every other 'Goyf-running build (excluding Deed builds, but even then, they have to pay 4 to do it, so they wipe out their entire board; also discard should help this. I've been trying to MD at least 2x Extirpate. They are almost NEVER a dead card. Hits Wastes and other nonbasics like fetches and/or trops, FoW's, combo pieces and win-cons in general, Deed, Grips, LftL, Ichorid builds, Breakfast builds, hate in general, I mean the list goes on, and paired with as much discard as Pox builds run, you should have no problem crippling them. Obviously there's Krosan Grip, but that's a risk you run, and it's a relatively moot point anyway since they would do that to a Prison or Crucible anyway. I find that Factories are the best, as against ichorid you can turn it into a critter and get rid of it quick. If you expect to see a bit of Ichorid, I recommend running LotV AND Innocent Blood (a way to nuke your own Factory turn 2 and run them down a Narcomoeba), possibly waste your own Factory. Whatever stops them from pounding your face turn 2/3 consistantly. This obviously would be a situation where Prison is vastly superior to Humility.

Do you ever have a problem with Blood Moon? How do you solve it? You can't really Vindicate it (no Plains)...I've been wanting some form of artifact mana in the build. Mox Diamond is best as a 4-of, so I've been really thinking about Coalition Relic as a 2-of for a bit of accel, but also for something that doesn't get reamed by moon effects. Mox Diamond is a bad choice, as is Chrome Mox because they are good as 4-ofs, and require a bit of card disadvantage, which this build doesn't really need more of, being self-destructive anyway. There's also C. Star/Sphere, but that seems like crap.

I'm honestly not trying to dilute the deck, but I think something needs to be changed. This deck can be crippling to almost every other list in the format by way of HEAVY discard (the only thing it really doesn't hurt is GY combo, and even then it can hit combo pieces screwing them), but it seems way-off radar. No one even mentions it when boarding. How are it's DTB matchups (UGx thresh, Ichorid, Storm combo, Landstill, Aggro-Loam, stax and etc.)?

Pce,

--DC

fourleafedmonkey

05-11-2008, 02:33 AM

rleader

05-11-2008, 05:40 AM

It's not whether the Rack belongs in Pox or not, it's about what Pox decks it belongs in, imo. Short answer: not this one.

Rack belongs in budget pox decks that can't afford the top-shelf land destruction suite (sinkhole, vindicate, wasteland + 2/3 crucible adds up to $$$), they don't have a choice but to focus on discard. It's honestly a pretty good choice for those decks and combos nicely with Oppression (which might make the cut over Trinisphere, even in main deck for these decks). Budget pox decks are a different matter and they play differently than the build focused on here; that's not necessarily a bad thing, the discard themed decks have their own advantages in certain matchups, especially pre-board.

Kant is on the money about the rack not being right for decks designed around LD.

Angantyr

05-25-2008, 07:44 PM

Honestly I have never felt that The Rack is a win more card.

The thing I like about The Rack is that it functions in its own way as a control card.

When people get to topdeck mode and you have The Rack out, people hold back their cards which gives your discard more power and leaves them with nothing on the board.

Also, it makes Hymn to Tourach my favorite burn card.

The Problem with Rack is simply, you have to keep your opponents Hand down. To achieve this I used Hypnotic Specters and other permanent discarders. But with Smallpox, Pox and Innocent Blood it was quite hard to kill your opponents creatures without screwing your wincondition.

I think The Rack is no option for this deck because you cant rely on it when you are in topdeck mode.

I like Pox with white splash, but I use my Scrublands in Deadguy, so I tried a green splash instead of the white splash.
I know greensplashes have been discussed on this board in some threads, but I can't find them anymore and this this threads seems to be well visited. I would like to present my two deckvariants I am testing at the moment.

2 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Barren Moor

2 Nether Spirit

3 Life From the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Living Wish

4 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

While testing Tombstalkers I desperately missed my Spirits to block cheap early beaters or just to discard it for a Smallpox. So I decided to wish Tombstalkers and other useful Cards with Living Wish.

2 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Barren Moor

3 Nether Spirit

3 Life From the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Extirpate

4 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Darkblast
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

This Version uses Spirits for killing and a stronger dredge engine to get Spirits, Loams, Darkblast or (utility)lands.

Clark Kant

05-26-2008, 11:59 PM

Your build is interesting but I honestly don't think green adds nearly as much as white to the deck.

Vindicate and Ghostly Prison are such solid additions to the deck. Cruicible is just as good as Loam imo.

Deed is good against decks that overextend. But this deck's Poxs and Smallpoxes already make your opponents overextension into a more managable force. So Deed is both slow, and isn't nearly as devastating as it is in decks without other Pox effects being played.

Goyf definately has potential in a more aggresive version of the deck but is also tough to make room for and slow/nonevasive.

It's not whether the Rack belongs in Pox or not, it's about what Pox decks it belongs in, imo. Short answer: not this one.

Rack belongs in budget pox decks that can't afford the top-shelf land destruction suite (sinkhole, vindicate, wasteland + 2/3 crucible adds up to $$$), they don't have a choice but to focus on discard. It's honestly a pretty good choice for those decks and combos nicely with Oppression (which might make the cut over Trinisphere, even in main deck for these decks). Budget pox decks are a different matter and they play differently than the build focused on here; that's not necessarily a bad thing, the discard themed decks have their own advantages in certain matchups, especially pre-board.

Kant is on the money about the rack not being right for decks designed around LD.

Great post, I agree with you 110%.

Angantyr

05-28-2008, 12:38 AM

Clark Kant

05-31-2008, 05:06 PM

Thank you.

Don't get me wrong. I do think a green splash can be made viable.

I'm just not convinced that Deed is a good fit in this though, as the deck already punishes overextending severely, and Deed eats up two turns usually and doesn't blow up land.

If I were to splash green, I would do so for Tarmogoyf mainly, and possibly Life of the Loam in place of Crucibles.

Dreading things with Loam has great synergy with Tombstalker, Goyf and can help get a Wasteland into your yard to recur, so it does have advantages inspite of the cost of having to pay 2 for each use.

Basically, a green splash of this deck would be a lot more aggressive and less disruptive,

opting to play both Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker (both as 4 ofs probably) to try and win asap.

Clark Kant

06-15-2008, 08:43 PM

I haven't had the chance to mess arond with this deck at all. But I'm very intrigued by prospect of playing...

Nether Spirit + Bitterblossom + Contamination.

It would let you cut land destruction for...

tutors + more discard/disruption + more removal (damnation) + more threats

Obviously the entire deck would be chagned. But it would be very strong against nonblack decks.

VonDoom

07-01-2008, 04:02 PM

Hello!

I've started this fantastic deck to be used as a "test deck", then I've decided recently to take it to a small tourney.

Here's my list

4 swamp
4 scrubland
2 godless shrine
1 plain
2 tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Flagstones of Trokair
3 wasteland
3 mishra factory

4 pox
4 smallpox
4 innocent blood
4 dark ritual
4 vindicate
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
4 gerrard verdict

2 seal of cleansing

2 crucible of worlds
3 phyrexian totem

SIDE
4 Trinisphere
1 cop:red
2 seal of cleansing
1 maze of ith
3 Ghostly Prison
2 powder keg
2 warmth

16 players, but not bad

First turn: goblin
2-0

Second Turn: dreadstill
2-0

Third turn: W Stax
2-0

Fourth: Landstill
0-2

Second in swiss... not so bad

Then the former W Stax... 0-2
Why? Because of 2 chalices, one saying 2, the other one saying 3, this happened in both matches :mad:

So, I've realized that I need a reset with a cc higher than 3....
Return to Dust?
Nevinyrral's Disk?
Magus of the Disk?

And also Karmic Justice could be a problem....

Please, can you help me?

Clark Kant

07-03-2008, 12:32 AM

The list looks strong. Like I said before, Tombstalker is definately worth considering over Totem. You should play more fetchland instead of a basic Plains imo. You should play atleast 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and 4 Wasteland/3 Cruciblue. Your land count looks too low and Dark Ritual isn't that great in Pox so I would cut Rituals for land. But otherwise, a very solid build.

I think it was just bad luck. Getting to 6 mana to resolve a Chalice at 3, or even 4 mana to resolve a Chalice at 4 is very hard to do.

Perhaps you could try cutting a Pox and some Gerrard's Verdicts to run 3 Rancid Earths to make sure you land destruction works more consistently.

LD is extremely strong. It buys you so much tempo. And provided you run enough LD, you could consider replacing Innocent Blood with Ghostly Prison. But Innocent Blood is extremely strong in this meta as well so I don't know.

But feel free to ignore everythign I just said. Dark Ritual works very well with Phyrexian Totem and lets you skimp on the land count which in turn works great with Innocent Blood (though I still like Nether Spirit, Bitterblossom, Chimeric Idol, Epochrasite a little bit more than Totem).

Dark_Cynic87

07-03-2008, 12:55 AM

Getting to 6 mana to resolve a Chalice at 3, or even 4 mana to resolve a Chalice at 4 is very hard to do.

Right about 6 mana, wrong about 4 mana. The average stax list runs 25 lands, 8 of which produce 2 generic mana, and 4x Mox Diamond, with a final count of 29 mana producers and 3-4 Crucibles. In fact, chalice for 1 is their second-favorite play, with Trinisphere turn one being the only thing that tops that.

I was in the process of testing out Humility, but I got REALLY busy with work. I'm still meaning to do this, though.

Pce,

--DC

VonDoom

07-03-2008, 05:19 AM

Testing night yesterday....
Here's the list tested

4 swamp
4 scrubland
2 godless shrine
1 plain
2 tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Flagstones of Trokair
3 wasteland
3 mishra factory

4 pox
4 smallpox
4 innocent blood
4 dark ritual
4 vindicate
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
3 gerrard verdict (-1)

1 seal of cleansing
1 powder keg

3 crucible of worlds (+1)
3 phyrexian totem

SIDE
4 Trinisphere
2 cop:red
2 seal of cleansing
1 maze of ith
3 Ghostly Prison
2 powder keg
1 Nevinirral Disk

Tested against
BURN
MonoG REALAGGRO
W Stax
MonoBlack Discard
Landstill / Threshold

While against Burn and Aggro there's no story for them, W Stax can be risky, while Landstill is definitevely a big big big problem

Stifle effects, counters, and after side... DIVERT !!!!!
What to do here???

What I've learnt from yesterday and from your suggestion

TO-DO-list
-2 Pox
+2 Rain of Tears
-1 powder Keg
+1 Gerrard Verdict

Things-that-I-already-know
3 is the right number for crucibles
Tombstalkers die soon
3 is the right number for wastelands (in my meta there's a high number of basic land, due to Blood Moon effects)
Fetch lands are really good, but I don't need to lose lifepoints
Gerrard Verdicts are too useful!

Dark Rituals
I like em a lot, in opening hand they help a lot (land-ritual-totem is a kind of timewalk here); during the game, they are good to be discarded :wink:

Phyrexian Totem
I appreciate these not because they can be a 5/5, but because they give me black mana.... I count these as 3 additional lands.

Ghostly Prison Vs Innocent Blood
While the prison is fine late game, I need innocent blood to respond to
1) Land-Ritual-Hippye
2) Land-Lackey

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I runned 3, but then I've seen that opponents started to tap their fetches to have black mana... so 2 now!

Go on with suggestions please....

Edit because of one INSANE IDEA!!!!
Transformational sideboard!!!

As said, Landstill and bluebased, they could be a problem.
So, as said by the motto of old-magic-player: "whatever they play, they need cards in hand and lands in play".... first game i go LD, second game I can go DISCARD mode

Landstill
Combos
Burn

They suffer more DISCARD than LD

So here's the idea for the sideaboard:

4 Duress
3 Extirpate
3 Cabal Therapy (they works fine with Factories....)
1 Neviniral Disk
1 Return to Dust
3 Ghostly Prison

so, in g2, againt these guys, the core will change from

2 pox
4 smallpox
4 innocent blood
4 dark ritual
2 Rain of Tears
4 vindicate
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
4 gerrard verdict

to

3 cabal therapy
4 smallpox
4 innocent blood
4 dark ritual
3 extirpate
2 vindicate
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 gerrard verdict

....mmmhhh... could work!!!!

chocomel

07-17-2008, 02:01 PM

Hey guys,
I was looking through the eventide list and found this potential "pox" cards:
Creakwood Liege
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=157406

Divinity of Pride
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Divinity%20of%20Pride

Deity of Scars
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Deity%20of%20Scars

Worm Harvest
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Worm%20Harvest

I was looking for something less graveyard depended (tombstalker) but one that still would be a good beater/finisher.
With all the cards costing 5B (except the liege) they are relatively expensive but they are all cheaper then a hardcasted tombstalker.

I really think Divinity of Pride is a potential card for pox, the potential loss of speed is reduced by the lifelink ability and getting 5b shouldn't be a big deal while having 3 to 4 urborgs in the deck.

I think Worm Harvest is a little too slow but due to the retrace ability you can discard it early game and use it when needed.
Combined with crucible of worlds you can replay "retraced" lands but i don't think that's worth the effort while you'll have 5 land in play to cast the harvest.
The other cards look weaker to me than Divining Pride but i wanted to hear your thoughts about it...

Greatings

Michel

rleader

07-17-2008, 02:14 PM

I think Exalted Angel would be clearly better than divinity of pride; still, I don't think most pox decks should be running actual creatures besides Tombstalker.

I also think Raven's Crime has a better chance of being good than Worms at exploiting retrace in a deck with a serious crucible investment (imo 3 crucibles). Worms is just too far above our curve.

jazzykat

07-17-2008, 03:00 PM

Maybe this has been considered but since you are your opponent are going down a lot from pox, maybe thoughtseize?

Clark Kant

07-17-2008, 03:52 PM

Tombstalker costs 2 mana or at the very very worst, 3 mana.

Pox really hates anything with a cc higher than 3.

But that said, Creakwood Liege has a tiny bit of potential in the deck just because it pumps out a 3/3 creature each turn (two ought to be big enough to take down Goyf) and it costs 4 which isn't a horribly high amount

The other cards are crappy for obvious reasons....

1. You'll never get to 25 life playing pox so it's worthless. You don't want a card dependent on Urborg to even be castable, or one costing 5 mana.

2. Playing a single creature by itself is bad as you will have to sac it to a Pox effect.

3. You're just not going to have that many lands in the yard really.

Clark Kant

07-20-2008, 02:09 PM

I really wanted to try out Epochrasite in a more aggressive less Crucible oriented build of the deck.

This led me to the following list. What do you guys think?

4 Epochrasite
4 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ghastly Demise

2 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Rancid Earth
4 Vindicate

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth
2 Mishra's Factory (Could be Flagstones of Trokair/Barren Moor/Dakmor Salvage/Swamp)

Desperately seeking space for inclusion...
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Which land would you play in the last two land slots? I think Mishra's Factory is best but Flagstones, Barren Moor, Dakmor Salvage, Swamps or something else (ex: Cabal Pit) are all viable options?

What other changes would you make to the build?

rleader

07-20-2008, 07:33 PM

I don't like ghastly demise. Might be ok for black threshold, but just because they play it doesn't mean anyone else should, imo.

Clark Kant

07-21-2008, 01:34 AM

StP is a fine replacement. I just am not a fan of giving my opponents life. But it's good regardless.

My three favorite black removal spells are...
Snuff Out
Ghastly Demise
Shriekmaw
Innocent Blood

All are excellent cards in the right deck. I like Snuff Out more actually.

But this deck can't handle the lifeloss.

Shriekmaw costs too much mana to be awesome so that's out since htis dec sacs it's own lands like crazy.

Innocent Blood is awesome, but I wanted to have one removal spell that actually targets the creature I want dead most.

Ghastly Demise works perfectly here for the below reasons...
Each Pox effect adds atleast three cards to your yard, add in the fetchlands and your yard fills up as fast as threshold.

You don't need to be able to kill high powered creatures with it.

Usually, I use it to kill their Meddling Mage so that when I Smallpox that same turn, they are forced to sac their Tarmogoyf. It's more of a supplemental removal spell.

Pox and Smallpox hit the big stuff. Vindicate does too if you're desperate.

VonDoom

08-12-2008, 08:28 AM

One thing I don't agree is to play <8 poxes :mad:

Sorry, but I want to point out some "philosophy"
The name of the deck is whateveryouwantPOX, so you MUST play 8 poxes!!!!

I finally realized one thing about this deck: it's seems like a Trident (take a look to Maserati sign)

DISCARD
LD
CLEAN CREATURES

ok for point 1 and point 2, but a little bit "wrong" on point 3

We've to move from CLEAN CREATURES to CLEAN THE BOARD!

So I think we've to review the strategy (MASERATI sucks, ya know) thinking only about the BOARD!
And everything discarded should be viewed as something that will not touch the board!

So, CLEAN THE BOARD will have to be our objective!

Try some Disks and EE, then let me know.... :laugh:

matamagos

08-12-2008, 10:52 AM

I have had a new idea to change the deck and I want to know what do you think about. It's just an idea and probably it will not function, like the great majority of deck ideas I have.

Firt on I wanted to play a faster deck, since I think the actual meta is quite fast and in many games my pox deck gets overuned. So I look for cards to fill the graveyard so I could play a faster tombstalker. And I came to Mishra's Bauble and Urza's Bauble.

These cards have great sinergy with tombstalker and with cabal therapy, but including them mean that you have to empty at least 8 slots of the deck for the baubles.

I think I can try to change hymns for cabal therapies and keep out the less optimal cards like sinkhole or rancid earth.

I'm a TROLL

08-12-2008, 09:56 PM

rleader

08-12-2008, 10:12 PM

And I came to Mishra's Bauble and Urza's Bauble.

Baubles might get you a slightly faster tombstalker, but they don't speed up the game; check the burn thread where every other week someone is convinced that drawing a card during the NEXT upkeep is the thing to do.

Even if you had a first turn Tombstalker (which you won't, obviously), you still might not be able to race a deck like goblins and having that tombstalker out would reduce your own ability to play pox effects to slow them down.

Playing Baubles is a bad idea against combo or any other deck where you need your cards now, not during the other person's turn.

SuckerPunch

08-24-2008, 08:54 AM

Pox players, it would be awesome if you can help me tweak and/or finetune my list. It's a more aggressive build than most (and transforms into Eva Green as needed) but I want it to first and foremost be a super tweaked Pox list...

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Rancid Earth
4 Vindicate
2 Pox
2 Swords to Plowshare/Reanimate

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory

If you're curious about my tranformational board, here it is...

Sideboarding In
+4 Dark Ritual
+4 Hypnotic Specter
+3 Nantuko Shade
+3 Snuff Out
+1 Thoughtseize

Subbing Out
-4 Smallpox
-4 Rancid Earth
-2 Mishra's Factory
-2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
-2 Pox
-1 Vindicate

But this isn't about the board, I can tweak that later.

My concern right now is about making the maindeck as absolutely as perfectly tweaked and tuned a Pox list as is humanly possibly.

So any help in that area is much appreciated.

P.S: Yes I know Goyf doesn't trample and has no evasion, but I still think its exceedingly strong, both as a blocker and a very quick finisher.

VonDoom

08-27-2008, 08:08 AM

You've just added green just for a creature that will die in under OUR poxes.
Let's take these goyf out and bring in 4 epochs!

Rush

08-27-2008, 09:29 AM

How does your deck fair against the best current deck: Threshold?

SuckerPunch

08-27-2008, 10:09 AM

How does your deck fair against the best current deck: Threshold?

Very well. Lets just say, if my meta was filled with Thresh, I would either play this deck or Dragon Stompy every single time.

SuckerPunch

09-06-2008, 04:17 PM

Clark showed me his new list recently (after I asked him about trying a UGW Pox deck with Goyfs)...

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badland
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tom

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Smallpox
3 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Rancid Earth/Phyrexian Negator.

I really don't know if this was meant to be a Pox deck, or an Eva Green variant. But it retains the strongest elements of both decks.

I really enjoyed trying it out. Blowing up lands is fun. And with 17 land destruction spells that are multifunctional, it seems like a solid gameplan especially combined with uber fast beats and solid undercosted discard.

Kitchen Table Hero

09-06-2008, 05:48 PM

clarks list

Thats probably how I would run it with a green splash, i like the replacement of nether spirit by reanimate, which should work fine with only 3 smallpox, but the problem with running only 3 smallpox seems to be the necessary inclusion of more creature removal with snuff out. Im not really sure if being able to run goyf and grips outweighs the factories, those have been MVP for me many times.
Im also assuming that the badland is a scrubland.

Here is what I am messing around with atm:
// Lands
4 [P2] Swamp (3)
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
2 [LG] Nether Void
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
2 [OV] Pox
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FNM] Gerrard's Verdict

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 2 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

Ignore the SB, but seriously, the Nether Voids are awesome.

Captain Hammer

10-08-2008, 06:55 PM

This deck is very solid (more so than traditional Pox imo).

But I'm wondering if it should be either Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond.

The decks needs to ramp up to three mana asap to work. Plus, both are invulnerable to Pox and Smallpox.

These two artifacts let the deck do that. Plus, Mox Diamond is solid with Crucible and the high land count.

johanessen

10-09-2008, 12:43 PM

Okay this deck needs help against Landstill, so SB we have options.

1-Add 3/4 Contamination.
2-Add 2 Chains of Mephistopheles

We also have problems to White Stax

1-Add 4 Gate to Phyrexia

Other options?

Clark Kant

11-02-2008, 10:35 PM

I just wanted to post my most current list of the deck. I tried out Mox Diamond with Raven's Crime and a higher Crucible count as others suggested and have been pleasently surprised by the change.

The deck is slightly less consistent, but more explosive. I liked the trade off.

//Mana
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgoth
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond

//Disruption
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Pox
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Raven's Crime
2 Ghostly Prison

//Threat
4 Tombstalker

I strongly urge people to try out this new list.

Clark Kant

11-23-2008, 03:38 PM

Raven's Crime is a ludicrously good card in the deck. I'm really surprised at how broken the card can be at times. Has anyone been playing it at all?

I've been liking Mox Diamond, but I'm not sure about the card yet. It's hard to decide if it was worth the cards that had to be cut to make room for it.

SkinLikeSkim

11-23-2008, 05:58 PM

I have been playing one Raven's Crime to try it out.

I am not playing the same list as you Clark but I am playing a list with more emphasis on the Crucible of Worlds than your standard suggested list.

I have found the Raven's Crime to be very effective, and a nice random hoser in some cases. I may move up to two.

I am not currently playing with Mox Diamond, though I have in the past. I'll give it a try again.

Clark Kant

11-23-2008, 07:04 PM

What did you think of Mox Diamond when you played it, and why did you stop. I'm having trouble figuring out whether Mox Diamond is worth it or not.

Arne

11-24-2008, 03:34 AM

I'm also thinking on adding mox diamond to my list. I've currently switched back to mono-B cause of the Open Dutch Championship (my mana base was crappy and decks like Mono-U, moonthresh and DS were an auto-loss)

At the championship (19th out of 142 thank you very much;)) I played with a one-off raven's crime. I didn't see it a lot. I can understand why it could be broken (that's why I put it maindeck in the first place) but I do think I'll have to add more copies of it to give a clear judgment.

Barsoom

11-24-2008, 11:10 AM

Can you post your Dutch Championship's decklist arne?

Arne

11-24-2008, 03:34 PM

Sure... I'll also try to post my matchups. Chances are small I can remember how the matches went but here we go:

Lands:
3x polluted delta
2x bloodstained mire
7x swamp
2x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1x tomb of urami
3x mishra's factory
4x wasteland

Creatures:
2x nether spirit
3x tombstalker

Artifacts:
3x crucible of worlds
2x sensei's divining top

spells:
4x innocent blood
3x dark ritual
4x duress
1x raven's crime
4x sinkhole
4x smallpox
4x hymn to tupac
1x smother
3x rancid earth

//sideboard//
4x leyline of the void
4x pithing needle
2x damnation
1x smother
1x gaea's blessing
3x engineered plague

1st match: UWG 2-1 (1-0-0)
won the 1st match after disrupting and destroying everything and eventually attacking with a tombstalker. the 2nd I lost cause of an early dreadnought which I couldn't destroy. The 3rd was a copy of the 1st.

2nd match: UB counter/top 2-0 (2-0-0)
My opponent lost the 1st because his decklist didn't match his deck (he forgot to write down 2 vindicates). I only saw a confidant and a counter/top combo. that combo doesn't affect my stalker so an early one did the trick.

3rd match: RGB aggro-loam 1-1 (2-0-1)
I lost the 1st rather quick. after boarding my matchup improved. I was able to put down a couple of leylines and a few peedles (s.assault) and eventually I swung for lethal with my stalker

4th match: UGB Gift-still 1-2 (2-1-1)
don't really remember. I only know that I won the 2nd because I was able to put down an Urami token. The 3rd I couldn't win and I lost in the 2nd turn of 5 extra turns.

5th match: Faerie Stompy 2-0 (3-1-1)
Won both games really quick. Chalice@1 doesn't really affect me and he couldn't answer my early stalkers (man, i love that card)

6th match: RB Goblins 0-2 (3-2-1)
Lost both games really quick. The 1st match I had no chance. After boarding, my chances improved but I didn't draw any mass destruction.

7th match: Enchantress 2-0 (4-2-1)
destroying his lands seemed to work :wink:

8th match: BW rogue (nethervoid with rebels) 2-0 (5-2-1)
his nether void saw play a couple of times... but my LD and recurring wasteland/fetch were even better:tongue:

SkinLikeSkim

11-25-2008, 10:35 PM

What did you think of Mox Diamond when you played it, and why did you stop. I'm having trouble figuring out whether Mox Diamond is worth it or not.

Well I liked the mox diamond most of the time, but I kept running into pernicious deed and engineered explosives locally. The Mox Diamond ended up being a liability for me personally and I lost some games as a result. I ended up going with utility lands in their place and was pleased with the added versatility. At the time I wasn't running crucibles.

In general I think running it is a fine choice, but it wasn't good for my scene at the time. Now with Raven's Crime pushing me to run Crucibles more heavily it is a good time to try out the Diamonds again, this time in combination with utility lands.

I will report back if I conclude decisively that they are good or bad.

Arne

11-26-2008, 02:46 PM

and with utility lands you mean:
- m. factories
- cabal pit
- wasteland
- tomb of urami

But what to cut for mox? I still play rituals... I think on cutting those for mox.

tylerwylie

12-04-2008, 02:12 AM

I am back ya'll.... Been playtesting online and have come up with this decklist. Not near the final list of what I'll be playing

Lands: 24

7 Swamp
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 6

3 Tombstalker
3 Nether Spirit

Other: 30

4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress(may go Thoughtsieze, not sure)
4 Vindicate
4 Porphyry Node(This card is actually pretty sick in this deck if timed well, might be relegated to board)
2 Skeletal Scrying

Close enough to a normal Pox build. I still love Skeletal Scrying, as it can pull you ahead in games, I want to play 3 and if I drop Porphyry Node to the board I can fit in a 3rd, and maybe add either 3 Ghastly Demises or Spinning Darkness.

Long live Pox!

I will be posting results and updates to my decklist following up to the Grand Prix, as I'll be attending, with it being 2 hours way from me :cool:

Clark Kant

12-05-2008, 01:19 AM

Porphyry Nodes seems like a really cool idea actually. Kind of a permanent Innocent Blood. 4x in the main might be excessive, but I WILL be trying it as a 4 of in the sideboard. Thank you for the suggestion.

You can recur both Factories and N. Spirits to keep it alive when they have no threats in play, and Tombstalker is bigger than most of the threats they actually might play.

and with utility lands you mean:
- m. factories
- cabal pit
- wasteland
- tomb of urami

But what to cut for mox? I still play rituals... I think on cutting those for mox.

I would include Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and possibly Flagstones of Trokair on the list too.

In fact, I firmly believe that Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is an automatic 3 of in any list playing both Wasteland and Factories.

And yes, I would cut Rituals for Mox Diamond. This deck doesn't care about acceleration for just one turn, which is all that Ritual provides. The deck needs it's acceleration to stick around permanently. Considering that the sweet spot for lands seems to be around 24, Diamond is the natural fit.

rleader

12-05-2008, 03:57 AM

I've tried out Nodes in a hoard of MTGO decks every which way from sunday and was unimpressed -- and hear me out, I *wanted* to like them, as I always dreamed of owning a drop of honey playset, but the thing about them is: the way the card is written absolutely prohibits doing anything tricky with them. There's no activating a factory to get around them disappearing, creating a token won't save it from self destructing, so it ends up being just bad removal.

Still removal, so you think it's good, but 90% of the time, you wish it were just a basic swords or infest (depending upon what deck you're playing against).

Clark Kant

12-05-2008, 12:03 PM

I'm still waiting to recieve a playset so I can't say how good they are. But they seem like a multiturn Innocent Blood in this particular deck for the same 1cc.

This is a deck where they could fare better than in most decks. You can stack it with Spirit's ability so that you destroy you opponent's creature then have your Spirit come back from the yard to keep Nodes in play?

Once again, I doubt that Nodes are maindeck material, but they seem like a solid sideboard option against hoard and swarm decks. But hey StP and Innocent Blood are faster, and Infest/Plague more devastating against stuff like Elves, and Ghostly Prison is a bomb against anything so you might be right and Nodes has no merit. But given their low cc, I'm tempted to give them a shot.

rleader

12-05-2008, 12:37 PM

You can stack it with Spirit's ability so that you destroy you opponent's creature then have your Spirit come back from the yard to keep Nodes in play?

Doesn't work. Nothing works with it. Nodes targets the one opposing creature, its ability goes on the stack: even if you insert a creature into play during that exact step, even with split second, the sacrifice nodes ability is still on the stack and has to resolve. It's unavoidable. I thought there was all kinds of stunts you could pull with nodes but it's a stunt free zone.

So you play nodes and that means:

1. they don't play any creatures next turn to pop your node, which slows them down. Good, yes.

2. they get to hit you in the face next turn with that creature since you have to wait around for your removal to do anything. Not so good.

Any deck that wants to put dudes into play can outrace your nodes. Trust me on this, I've played a deck with nodes against elves about fifty times.* They seldom care enough to slow down. OTOH, any deck that plays tarmogoyf is going to enjoy smashing you for 5 with a creature that would have been off the board with any other kind of removal.

*I dick around on MTGO every so often and the latest cards I have are TSP block. When lorwyn came out and every deck you faced in the casual room was tribal aggro, the only deck I had in STD that could compete was R/W control/Combo, usually leaning on Restore Balance + Greater Gargadon for the win. I always tried to sneak Porphory Nodes into the deck but was *always* disappointed whenever I used them. List went something like this (nodes in for either sages or prismatic lens):

1 Gemstone Mine
4 Island
7 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Terramorphic Expanse

4 Prismatic Lens
4 Chromatic Star

4 Greater Gargadon
4 Restore Balance
3 Fury Charm
2 Timecrafting

3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Sage of Epityr

4 Counsel of the Soratami
3 Think Twice
4 Pyroclasm
1 Rough/Tumble

Clark Kant

12-05-2008, 09:33 PM

That's disappointing to find out. I still think they're a decent sideboard way to kill off Mongeese and Goyfs, while also being boardable against pretty much any aggro deck.

If they slow down your opponent from dropping creatures, it gives you more time to blow up all their lands.

While I'm not sure of Nodes, or even Mox Diamond (it's really good at some games, but falters in others so I'm not sure if it's worth the deckspace).

I'm very enthusiastic about Raven's Crime as a two of. The card has a ton of potential in any list playing 3 or more Crucibles. It also lets you abuse Pox more effectively.

Irish_Mafia

12-06-2008, 11:22 PM

Arne

12-07-2008, 04:21 AM

So this is the list i've been working on. Im only in the testing stage but i wanna bring it to a couple of larger events. Ill post up the results then. But for now i'm just looking for comments/feedback

3 Mishra's Factory
7 swamp
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 tomb of urami
4 wasteland

4 Tombstalker
3 Nether Spirit

4 smallpox
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize
4 vindicate
4 smother
1 haunting echoes
1 raven's crime

3 crucible of worlds

I really like your list cause I'm a huge fan of poxless pox. I'd really play innocent blood though. It's a great and cheap way to get rid of annoying mongeese and turn 1 lackey's. aside from a turn 1 thoughtseize, you don't have any creature removal on your 1st turn. that means that when you are on the draw, his lackey can come through at any time.

given the fact that the 1st game against gobbo's isn't that good, not playing innocent blood only makes it worse.

I think 3 factories, 3 n. spirits and 4 stalkers is a tad of overkill. you could cut down to 3 stalkers and 2 spirits. so, I'd play it like this.

-1 stalker
-1 spirit
-2 smother
+4 innocent blood

the rest of the list looks great... I haven't played haunting echoes, but at a first glance, it seems to work. Let us know how the big events went.

Irish_Mafia

12-10-2008, 08:31 PM

Hey guys what do you think about running Bob? I know we play tombstalker but idk maybe pla top as well? I just find i run out of steam late game.

Clark Kant

12-11-2008, 03:22 AM

Don't play Bob here. Bob is good elsewhere. But here, many casting costs are 3 (Pox, Crucible, Ghostly Prison, Vindicate, Nether Spirit etc). Pox is NOT a fast deck. A deck with an average clock of six turns can handle losing life for four turns to Bob. Pox is on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Plus, the best win condition this deck could ask for Tombstalker, which every single pox list absolutely must play, has a casting cost of 8.

You already lose enough life to your opponent's early attacks, and to your own Poxes. Losing more to Pox isn't acceptable.

I also wanted to clarify on MOX DIAMOND. It's likely not worth the bother.

I know that I've been running it for the past month or two. But the results are very mixed. Some games it works beautiful, but other games, its absolutely worthless and you can't always discard it away to Pox or Smallpox. You need every card, esp. every top deck to be a powerful effect in this deck.

There's certainly nothing wrong with playing Mox Diamond. But at the end of the day, I'm of the belief that Mox Diamond isn't worth it overall as a whole, even if it works very well on occasion.

tylerwylie

12-15-2008, 09:13 PM

tylerwylie

12-30-2008, 06:03 PM

Here's my current list and SB I've been playing with, and have actually been winning a lot more now with.
Maindeck:

Lands:
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Polluted Delta
4x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
1x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8x Swamp
4x Mox Diamond

Kill:

4x Phyrexian Totem
4x Tombstalker

Disruption:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
4x Pox
4x Vindicate

Sideboard:

4x Reanimate
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Extirpate
4x Engineered Plague

Chalice of the Void maindeck is so powerful first game, for 1, and sometimes even 2. If you're playing against combo dropping for 0 after a Mox Diamond never hurts as well.

Tombstalker and Phyrexian Totem both swing for 5, and many times I've just won by swinging for 10 with both after resolving a Pox.

Reanimate on sideboard is amazing versus Tarmagoyf, and useful in general against other creature based decks.

Clark Kant

12-30-2008, 08:00 PM

Hey tyler, sorry i missed your earlier post. I've been out of magic for a few weeks or so. So my understanding may sound a bit dated, but this is what I found...

About Porphyr Nodes, they're not bad, a decent all around card for cheap. But against horde/weenie decks, you're better off with Ghostly Prison or even Infest. Against aggro control, you're usually better off with Innocent Blood, Smother, and Pox effects. I generally like Ghostly Prisons more since they immediatley effect your opponent's next attack, and stick around in play permanently.

Your build looks pretty good.

From my play, I find that if you play Mox Diamond, you absolutely need to play 4 Wasteland, 3-4 Factories/Flagstones, 3-4 Urborg, Tomb of and 3-4 Crucible of Worlds.

Phyrexian Totem is pretty good, but I think Epocrasite is better all around for a couple of reasons...
a.) It costs only 2 mana, which is really the sweet spot for threats in this deck.
b.) It doesn't require you to spend 3 mana every time you want to attack with it, leaving you free to play business spells.
c.) It can actually block, and being able to play defense in a pinch is actually pretty relevent in this deck.

Otherwise, I really like your deck. Chalice is awesome. About 10 pages ago, we were discussing which to play... Chalice or Duress/Thoughtseize. I think a case could be made for either one. But with Mox Dimaonds letting you play Chalice turn one, I think it definatley holds the edge now.

eternaldarkness

12-31-2008, 07:49 AM

tylerwylie

12-31-2008, 12:37 PM

Tyler, do you still play with Skeletal Scrying? Right now I'm trying to find a good library manipulation/draw card to fit in. I've considered Night's Whisper and have even tried Tainted pact (with snow-covered swamps) but scrying seems more powerful. I'm wondering though, doesn't scrying clash too much with delve? And also, how many cards do you usually draw with scrying (considering how much lands you sacrifice to pox effects)? If around 1-2 cards, then Night's Whisper would obviously be better.

EDIT: your chalice-pox list looks sweet!

That's my main beef with Skeletal Scrying and Tombstalker, you become susceptible to graveyard hate that way. Skeletal Scrying is the best card draw spell for Pox still, and now that I'm not running Nether Spirit I'm going to try to fit it back in. Totem looks a lot better as well when you have Chalice for 1 out and do not have to worry about suprise bolts(I call it suprise buttsechs when its on a totem).

Captain Hammer

01-06-2009, 07:21 AM

With all the aggro control decks running around play 8-12 creatures tops these days, I think a super budget version of this deck playing nothing but removal and threats could do quite well, and on the cheap.

Here's a sample list...

Ultra Budget Pox

14 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smother
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

4 Phyrexian Totem
4 Chimeric Idol
4 Epochrasite/Nether Spirit

What do you think? Is this a bane to Aggro Control decks everywhere? Or should I try to squeeze in even more removal into the deck?

Captain Hammer

01-29-2009, 08:50 PM

I think we should discuss this card...

Wretched Banquet B
Sorcery
Destroy target creature with the least power or tied for least power.

I see this card replacing Innocent Blood in Pox decks everywhere, including the above build.

This is exactly the removal spell that Pox needed. More versatile than Innocent Blood. And cheaper than Smother.

It actually playable even with a Tombstalker in play (even Goyfs rarely get bigger than 5/6). And in decks where the only threats are Chimeric Idols/Factories, this is a beast.

Innocent Blood sucked in that...

a.) It's unplayable if Tombstalker is already in play.
b.) It doesn't give you any say in which creature you kill. Your opponent always got to make the choice. With this you atleast get some choice. You can choose to destroy their Piledriver rather than letting them sac their Mogg Fanatic.

Valtrix

01-29-2009, 09:38 PM

Eh...I don't like that it can't hit mongoose because it's targeted. It gives you a little more control over the creature I guess, but I don't feel that it's going to give you more control all that often to the point of it being significantly better. Usually the worst creature an opponent has is going to be the one with the lowest power. It's going to help you a little against something like goblins...But really not all that much. I feel that there's more decks with small amount of threats of different power-levels that it's not going to make a difference. It still can't hit mongoose, and for that I think that that makes it worse than innocent blood. I think that overrules the slight advantages it has over innocent blood.

That said, it should probably be tested just because.

Captain Hammer

01-29-2009, 11:04 PM

Well, the main advantage is, you can cast it even when you have a Tombstalker in play.

You can't play Innocent Blood if you have a Tombstalker in play (you shouldnt anyways).

That was always a huge weakness of Innocent Blood.

jebus

01-29-2009, 11:21 PM

Banquet is actualy better with Stalker (or Nyxathid) in play, which is the opposite with Innocent Blood. This allows for more of an aggro plan, which would be probably better in a Poxless Pox list.

However, you have to question whether a 1cc sorcery is really stictly better than a 2cc instant (Smother), or a 2cc artifact sweeper (Keg, which I've always liked in Pox).

clavio

01-30-2009, 12:39 AM

The fact that it cant hit monogoose makes this unplayable.

jebus

01-30-2009, 02:52 AM

The fact that it cant hit monogoose makes this unplayable.

Swords to Plowshares, Smother, Snuff Out, Shriekmaw, Vindicate all can't hit Mongoose but are all seeing plenty of play. Besides, Pox has several effects that can kill untargetable creatures.

The real problem with this card is that the restriction is not on what kind of creature you can target (ie non-black for Snuff out, 3cc or less for Smother, etc) but on which specific creature on the board you can target (the one with the lowest power).

Valtrix

01-30-2009, 02:57 AM

Swords to Plowshares, Smother, Snuff Out, Shriekmaw, Vindicate all can't hit Mongoose but are all seeing plenty of play. Besides, Pox has several effects that can kill untargetable creatures.

Yep, that's definitely a fair comparison. See, all of that removal is better than innocent blood to begin with. The fact that innocent blood is the only removal of the ones mentioned that can hit mongoose makes it all that much more important.

jebus

01-30-2009, 05:23 AM

Clavio's statement lacked justification. Not hitting Mongoose is not enough to write a removal spell off as unplayable. There should be other things to consider, especially since Smallpox and Pox both can kill Mongoose.

bowvamp

01-30-2009, 10:49 AM

Well, hmm enchantress is worth mentioning I guess...

Kove

02-01-2009, 10:05 AM

I'm a big fan of Innocent Blood and I was thrilled when I first heard about a possible upgrade for it. But after thinking about it I've come to a conclusion. I don't like Wretched Banquet.

Sure, it works better with a Tombstalker on the board, and in some cases it allows you to choose which weenie to kill off - but that's about it.

It sucks with Nether Spirit. Pay B, kill your own creature. Sure, you can suicide rush him into your opponent's goyf before using it, but they won't fall for that more than once.

Also, Mongoose totally counters it which actually IS quite a big deal. ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh sees a lot of play around here at least. It also cannot take care of Mystic Enforcers and other random stuff like regenerating creatures and indestructables.

jebus

02-05-2009, 08:14 AM

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but has anyone considered running 4 Chalice of the Void, boosted by 4 Mox Diamond? The deck doesn't really have a lot of 1cc stuff anyway (Duress and Raven's Crime... not too hot on Thoughtseize in Pox), and Chalice + Hymn + Pox + LD = a mess for any opponent. 4 Mox also survives Pox, accels into turn one Hymn and Sink (on the draw), and is a W source after all the Pox carnage.

Captain Hammer

02-05-2009, 01:46 PM

Well, there is a search the deck function. :tongue:

It looks like of the older lists do play Chalice instead of Thoughtseize.

Chalice should work really well here esp if you keep your opponent stuck at 1 mana anyways. I would play it with Mox Diamond if I didn't take this deck apart a few weeks ago.

clavio

02-05-2009, 03:49 PM

I think ghastly demise is better, and that's largely unplayable.

Captain Hammer

02-05-2009, 04:22 PM

Banquet IS worse than Blood if your opponent has a Nimble Mongoose in play.

Blood IS worse than Banquet if you have a Tombstalker in play. Demise IS worse than Banquet if Tombstalker just ate up your graveyard. Demise also makes the deck even more reliant on the yard, which imo is best avioded.

So which is more likely? Your opponent having a Mongoose in play, or you having a Tombstalker in play.

Seeing as how you play 4x Tombstalker, and not every opposing deck plays 4x Mongoose, I think it's pretty clear that Banquet is generally preferable.

Both Ghastly Demise and Innocent Blood are better IF AND ONLY IF your build doesn't play Tombstalker.

Both Demise and Blood have really bad synergy with Tombstalker. And seeing as how Tombstalker is the best threat black has to offer (esp in this deck where each Pox adds three cards to your yard), I think that's why neither Blood and Demise see play in Pox.

Other than the above cases Banquet is the same as Innocent Blood. Because the lowest power creature is the one your opponent sacs to Blood most of the time, but Blood lets them choose to keep their Withered Wretch or something in play if they want to keep it, Banquet doesn't give them that choice, so I guess it's a little better in that sense too.

Captain Hammer

02-05-2009, 10:48 PM

morgan coke brought up this card...

Desolation
1BB
At the end of the turn, each player who tapped a land for mana this turn sacrifices a land.

Seems like a far stronger option than Rancid Earth.

This deck already plays Crucible of Worlds, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory and sometimes Mox Diamond and Flagstones of Trokair. This card seems like a natural fit here.

joey223

12-03-2009, 10:06 PM

ive had some problems in the past with combo while playing pox and wanted to know what everyone thought about this card for the combo matchup:

shadow of doubt.

Instant, {U/B}{U/B} (2)

Players can't search libraries this turn.

Draw a card.

my thinking is when they use all their resources to search ,you spring this on them,they cant search and waste all their resources.
it can also be used as a stifle when they sac a fetchland.

obvious i know but what do you guys think?

evanmartyr

03-28-2010, 07:32 PM

It seems as though you're hell-bent on using Tombstalker as a kill condition, to the point of shaping your removal around it, when you could be using Bloodghast or just varying your threats enough.

I mean, the point of your 1mana removal is to provide removal in an environment of 1 and 2 mana threats. Tombstalker does not exist in that environment until (ideally) much later in the game, when you're theoretically not too concerned about their 1 and 2 mana threats, and even then, you can always just block most of them (excepting Tarmogoyf). Tombstalker also fights with Pox and Smallpox, and putting a non-recursive win condition into Lightning Bolt range with your own Infests seems pretty poor.

I'm not saying Innocent Blood is necessarily better than Wretched Banquet, just thought it was worth pointing out that perhaps the issue isn't the removal you're using, it's the Tombstalker.

Has anyone considered Quicksand (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197853) or Cabal Pit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29904) for this deck? They're not amazing, but they do allow you to stall the game from under a Standstill, and they're early removal that don't conflict with Chalice of the Void, if you go that route.

How about something like...

12x Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Mox Diamond

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Crucible of Worlds

4x Pox
2x Smother
4x Smallpox
4x Innocent Blood/Wretched Banquet
2x Infest
4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Nether Spirit
4x Phyrexian Totem

Any thoughts? As important and swingy as it seems, I don't really like Hymn to Tourach in the deck, although it does have the potential to completely wreck combo for quite a few turns in game 1, and messes pretty well with control. I really don't like Dark Ritual in this deck, either, as it seems to power out something decent early, but nothing too gamebreaking...at least, nothing that you can't do with Mox Diamond except possibly chalice at 2.

Which could be another direction the deck wants to go, you could just start pouring lock components in and make it a kind of mono-black Mud sort of build. I mean, your win conditions and lock components aren't affected by Pox or Smallpox, so you're free to chuck artifacts into this thing like there's no tomorrow.

4x Urborg
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Mutavault/Crystal Vein/other 2 mana land thing
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mox Diamond
4x Swamp
4x Phyrexian Totem

3x Pox
4x Smallpox

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Sphere of Resistance
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Smother
2x Culling Scales

Aether Vial becomes a problem, but Karn or something could answer it fairly well. As could Culling Scale (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=47445)s. Black sources are kind of a problem here, though.

I dunno. Thoughts?

Clark Kant

03-29-2010, 03:04 AM

If you're playing fetchlands, and unless you're playing something techy like Noetic Scales or Ensnaring Bridge, you absolutely should play Tombstalker.

The card is stone cold nuts with fetchlands and pox effects that fill your yard up at light speed.

If you want to supplement Tombstalker with Bloodghast, by all means, you absolutely should. It's a great creature. But Tombstalker is an auto 3 of in this deck (and usually an auto 4 of).

The thread got screwed up in the last page or two by having lots of discussion of budget and thus monoblack pox versions.

But Vaka Pox is by definition, Pox with a white splash in order to abuse...

Vindicate (hits lands and all problem cards)
Ghostly Prison (great with land destruction)
Flagstones of Trokair

Possibly even Armageddon

and to get sideboard options against artifacts and enchantments (Serenity against Stax decks).

To put it another way, Vaka Pox is the slower more controllish pox version that devastates your opponents manabase optimally and has an answer to everything. Monoblack Pox is faster but more fragile and not quite as good at attacking manabases.

Tombstalker goes great with all the LD.

Androstanolone

03-29-2010, 08:41 AM

Cthuloo

03-29-2010, 09:11 AM

If you're splashing white and possibly also running mox diamond why not run engnieered explosives. It's a versatile and powerful answer like vindicate but in a different way than vindicate. Vindicate is basically always a 1 for 1, whereas EE can be X for 1. Vindicate can't deal with a horde of tokens, EE does it for 2. EE can deal with most relevant permanents even if you're stuck on 2 mana because it is paid for in installments, whereas vindicate always requires the one-time investment of 3 mana. EE can be generally played out of your hand whenever you have spare time, waiting to kill whatever shows up, whereas vindicate must wait for a threat. Thus EE contributes to decreasing your hand size for pox whereas vindicate can gum up your hand.

Of course vindicate has plusses too, the purpose of this post is to highlight how good EE still is because it fills in the gaps that vindicate still leaves behind. And vindicate fills in gaps that EE and the rest of the pox deck leaves behind (enchantments, extra land kill, targetted/specific creature kill).

Try starting a deck with vindicate, pox, smallpox, and EE and you've got the makings of an excellent board control deck. Add in duress/thoughtseize and hymn to tourach and you have a great hand control deck. Both of those together equals an excellent resource denial deck.

Also, nether spirit and bloodghast make tombstalker even better in this deck.

I'm not sure I would play EE maindeck. In BW pox you've got many auto-include and very few free slots. The kernel of the deck is something like:

Mana:
24 lands
4 moxen

Hand control:

4 Duress/Thoughtseize/Therapy
4 Hymns (maybe questionable)

Land Control:

4 Sinkhole

Creature Removal:

4 Swords/Innocent Blood/Other removal

Multi Purpose & Utilities:

4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
2 Crucible Of Worlds

This is already 54 slots (50 without the hymns), and you're still missing a win condition, except maybe some mishra's factories. So there are only a few slots for other utilities like pox, keg, EE, trinisphere, chalice, ghastly prison, top etc. Otherwise you should question if EE are better than any of the "kernel" cards, and deserve to steal some space. I don't really think so, given the actual meta, but in case Zoo starts to disappear in the future, maybe specific maindeck creature removal wont be a necessity anymore, and some copies of EE could find their way in.

Anyway, I still think they're a pretty good sideboard choice.

Androstanolone

03-29-2010, 09:31 AM

EE is fantastic. For 3 mana you can 2 for 1 zoo. Compare that to vindicate against zoo, which you make an autoinclude (and I agree with). Turn 1 drop it for 2 and take out most of the relevant permanents in legacy whenever you feel like it. I would take a card that always trades with one or more relevant permanents than cards that only maybe do.

Cthuloo

03-29-2010, 09:50 AM

EE is fantastic. Turn one drop it for 1 and you can get a 2 for 1 against zoo. Turn 1 drop it for 2 and take out most of the relevant permanents in legacy whenever you feel like it. I would take a card that always trades with one or more relevant permanents than cards that only maybe do.

Despite being very strong on paper, I think that EE is too slow against Zoo. Let's say, they go turn one Nacatl, turn 2 Goyf. If you have Explosives, you drop them on turn one, take 3 from Nacatl, blow them and the Nacatl, take a hit from the goyf for something between 2 and 4 and let the Zoo player drop another threat. Compare this to: turn one Nacatl -> innocent blood, turn two goyf -> smallpox. You took no damage (well, except the life lost for smallpox), destroyed both threats and further disrupted the opponent's plan.

Androstanolone

03-29-2010, 10:14 AM

Despite being very strong on paper, I think that EE is too slow against Zoo. Let's say, they go turn one Nacatl, turn 2 Goyf. If you have Explosives, you drop them on turn one, take 3 from Nacatl, blow them and the Nacatl, take a hit from the goyf for something between 2 and 4 and let the Zoo player drop another threat. Compare this to: turn one Nacatl -> innocent blood, turn two goyf -> smallpox. You took no damage (well, except the life lost for smallpox), destroyed both threats and further disrupted the opponent's plan.

And that is the reason you may want to run innocent blood or smallpox over EE, but not a reason to run hymn/sinkhole/vindicate/keg over EE.

Cthuloo

03-29-2010, 10:27 AM

And that is the reason you may want to run innocent blood or smallpox over EE, but not a reason to run hymn/sinkhole/vindicate/keg over EE.

Well, Vindicate it's the main reason to splash white. Beside being an all-around answer it can also hit lands, and for what I understand of the deck, heavy land denial is its trademark (and this holds also for Sinkhole). If you are discarding Vindicate, I'll encourage you to stay monoblack or go Bg and gain pulses and deed.

Hymn is more debatable, and EE could also fulfill a partially similar role providing you with some card advantage. But I'd still prefer some extra lock pieces like trinisphere or ghastly prison more than EE in those slots. EE are definitely strong in some matchups, dead in some, and overkill in some other, this is why I like them more in the sideboard. Maindecking them can definitely be a good meta call sometimes, though.

Androstanolone

03-29-2010, 10:30 AM

Where is EE dead?

Cthuloo

03-29-2010, 10:43 AM

Where is EE dead?

ANT and Reanimator are the first that come to mind.

Androstanolone

03-29-2010, 10:56 AM

ANT and Reanimator are the first that come to mind.

And none of ghostly prison, hymn, innocent blood, or trinisphere are particularly good against both of those either.

Ghostly prison has a mild impact on the reanimator MU, slowing them down a little. 3sphere has a mild effect also, slowing them down a little. 3sphere is obviously great against ANT. Hymn has some effect on both. Innocent blood is great against reanimator but dead against ANT. EE has a mild impact on both as cheap LD for moxen. None of the options are really "perfect". EE is proactive control, you cast it whenever you have available time, even if there is nothing out to threaten you right then. It is excellent against thresh variants and good against everything except hardcore combo and reanimator. There aren't a lot of cards that are good against those two and still good against everything else, anyway. I'd argue that EE is better against everything else, however. Its impact is usually greater than hymn because it always takes out something relevant.

Cthuloo

03-29-2010, 11:15 AM

And none of ghostly prison, hymn, innocent blood, or trinisphere are particularly good against both of those either.

Ghostly prison has a mild impact on the reanimator MU, slowing them down a little. 3sphere has a mild effect also, slowing them down a little. 3sphere is obviously great against ANT. Hymn has some effect on both. Innocent blood is great against reanimator but dead against ANT. EE has a mild impact on both as cheap LD for moxen. None of the options are really "perfect". EE is proactive control, you cast it whenever you have available time, even if there is nothing out to threaten you right then. It is excellent against thresh variants and good against everything except hardcore combo and reanimator. There aren't a lot of cards that are good against those two and still good against everything else, anyway. I'd argue that EE is better against everything else, however. Its impact is usually greater than hymn because it always takes out something relevant.

Your analysis is perfect, and I think there's little more to say. :) At this point is a matter of playstyle, I think: I'm happier with a set of generic proactive answers in the main, while you like to have the extra control element in some matchups given by explosives. It can also be that some difference in our metas require different calls and thus we are both inclined to what showed to work more in our experience.

unicoerner

05-28-2010, 01:06 PM

Hi this is my List right now:

Lands
4 [B] Scrubland
4 [DDE] Swamp (2)
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [JGC] Vindicate
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [V09] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison

I am not sure about 2 Elspeth, but they fit quite well to our gameplan imho. Hymn could be removed aswell, becasue we often don`t have to care that much about hand cards, becasue we screw our opponent on mana.
Hymns could be 2 Duress and EE.

clavio

06-02-2010, 01:46 PM

Why isn't anybody running pox?

ScatmanX

06-02-2010, 03:35 PM

@Cthuloo: EE @ 2 Prevents Animate Dead from reanimator, so I think it is fairly useful.
Agains't AnT @0 it may prevents LED, once they'll probably cast it as soon as possible fearing discard. Same for Moxes or Petal.

I'm not saying to run it, but it is certanly not dead.

Clark Kant

06-02-2010, 03:49 PM

unicoernor, I love your list. It looks great.

Just a couple of things I'm wondering about.

Why no Pox in your deck? With the Trinisphere and all your other LD, Pox supplements it all very well, you'll have to up your Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth count, but I think the trade off is worth it.

Pox >>>> Chainer's Edict. It takes out a creature (multiple creatures sometimes), supplements LD, works great with Crucible of Worlds and Trinisphere, and fills your yard for Tombstalker. I would cut the Edict and an StP or two for Pox.

Speaking of which, why aren't you playing Tombstalker? It supplements the rest of your deck so well, esp since you're playing StP over Innocent Blood. It's a far better finisher than Espelth imo.

Also, how are you faring against aggro decks without maindecking Ghostly Prison. Ghostly Prison is such a key card for the aggro matchup in my experience. I think you're playing too many Trinispheres I would cut some for Tombstalkers.

Is Espelth working? I'm not sold on the card either, but if it works that's great.

In short this is what I would do to your list....

Cut a couple of StP and Trinispheres, maybe even an Inquisition or two. Cut all of your Espelths and Chainers Edicts.

Add a couple of Pox, Ghostly Prison, Tombstalker and an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Then your list would be just about perfect.

clavio

06-02-2010, 08:10 PM

I don't really like flagstones in a deck where you need to hit BB and sometimes BBB consistently. In fact I would bet that your mana base is kind of suspect, running 9 lands that don't make black mana and only 2 Urborg. I think if you want to run 4 wasteland and 4 factory you really should be running 4 urborg.

I would not cut STP. It's your only out against Iona@black.

Also is 23 lands really enough to support mox diamond?

clavio

06-06-2010, 04:30 PM

What kind of matchups have you guys had with the more ld focused version of the deck?

Cthuloo

06-07-2010, 03:59 AM

What kind of matchups have you guys had with the more ld focused version of the deck?

I've not played with the deck in some months, and used to play a list with a small Enlightened Tutor toolbox (crucible, trinisphere, ghostly prison in the main, more in the board). The deck had a better matchup against storm combo and dredge (both were positive, dare I say), but was in greater troubles with tempo decks and zoo (goblins and merfolk were decent, because they have no burn and no way to remove ghastly prison preboard). If you're interested, I can reconstruct the list i played with a small effort.

mitico

12-02-2010, 01:13 PM

Cthuloo

12-03-2010, 06:16 AM

I like to play BW pox my next tournament, so the list would be interested in using the Enlightened Tutor toolbox as search engine. I think that in a metagame as large as the legacy, a deck with a few silver bullets always pretty.

Greetings

This is the list I was playing (mind you, it's now almost a year old):

4 smallpox
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
1 swords to plowshares

Utilities

3 enlightened tutor
1 crucible of worlds
1 trinisphere
1 ghostly prison

Finishers

3 tombstalker
2 nihilith

Lands

4 mishra
4 wasteland
4 marsh flats
1 polluted delta
2 urborg, ToY
3 scrubland
4 swamp
2 flagstones of trokair

Not even posting the sideboard, since it's obviously outdated.

Anyways, I think BW pox could be a good meta call right now, with the right tweaking. In particular, the deck can be tuned to have an awesome survival matchup with ease.

An attempt to adapt the list above to the actual meta could be:

- 3 innocent blood + 3 stp (definitely better against vengevine)

- 1 crucible + 1 needle (the second one is definitely stroger, at the moment)

- 1 ghostly prison +1 ensnaring brige (better against S&T decks and UG survival running trigon)

The finisher compartment should also be redesigned: Nihilith was never awesome, and now it's definitely underwhelming. Elspeth could be fine in its place. It could be a good idea to find some room for maindeck extirpates, but now on the spot I'm not sure what could come out for them.

The sideboard should be practically built from scratch. At the time I was playing a lot of zoo and gobbo hate, that can now be largely cut. With zero testing with the deck in the last months it's quite hard to guess the shape of an updated board.

wujen

12-09-2010, 07:00 AM

Hi all I'm testing this kind of BW Pox. It's working preety well but i would like to ask you for some suggestions to improve it further.

///// 22 Lands

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Plains

///// 28 Spells

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Mox Diamond

///// 7 Tutor toolbox

4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Phyrexian Arena

///// 4 Killers

2 Tombstalker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB: 15

4 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Rule of Law
1 Suppression Field
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Defense Grid
1 Wheel of sun and moon
1 Smokestack
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Captain Hammer

04-03-2015, 07:44 PM

Myth Realized seems like it would be absolutely amazing in this deck. Almost broken.

clavio

04-03-2015, 08:01 PM

Myth Realized seems like it would be absolutely amazing in this deck. Almost broken.

Lol keep dreaming

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/rtr/141.jpg

Captain Hammer

04-06-2015, 08:20 AM

Just because a card can be decayed doesn't make it bad. Besides, Poxs strength is its ability to blow up lands and cut multicolored decks off from a color.

iamajellydonut

04-06-2015, 08:29 AM

Quit posting in this thread. It's five years dead and nobody cares about your ideas.

clavio

04-07-2015, 04:51 PM

Just because a card can be decayed doesn't make it bad. Besides, Poxs strength is its ability to blow up lands and cut multicolored decks off from a color.

Good fucking luck keeping decks off two lands! If that was possible people would be playing pox more than not at all.

Clark Kant

06-17-2017, 08:44 AM

I am ready to present Vaka Pox 2.0. It's ideally suited for the post Miracles meta and has a lot of newer innovations incorporated into it.

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

// Threats
3 Tombstalker

// Disruption
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning

// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Chalice of the Void

Clark Kant

06-19-2017, 06:32 PM

Lol keep dreaming

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/rtr/141.jpg

I never considered Myth Realized but yeah I think it could have a role in the deck, possibly in lieu of Tombstalker. It would require ditching the maindeck Chalice for Innocent Blood (or Inquisition) but I think the trade off might be worth it to play a threat immune to your own Pox, Smallpox, Bontu and Innocent Blood effects.

I think Abrupt Decay isn't seeing as much play since Top got banned neutering Counterbalance and Fatal Slip got printed. Even if it gets Decayed, you can still win with Factories recurrable with Crucible.

Going...
-3 Tombstalker
-3 Chalice
+3 Myth Realized
+3 Innocent Blood

effectively gives the deck
21 maindeck creature kill/removal effects
And
20 land destruction spells, 4 of which recur turn after turn with a Crucible.

This vastly outnumbers most control decks in terms of number of answers.

Captain Hammer

06-25-2017, 12:20 PM

I really like the new/updated Vaka Pox 2.0 list.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=413752&type=card

Vindicate is ridiculously good right now. It blows up lands so you are able to play more land destruction than most decks play land, but best of all, there is nothing it doesn't blow up, it even takes out Planeswalkers and Moats.

One thing I will say is that I think Tombstalker works very best as a 2 of. I still think Myth Realized would do a great job of supplementing it as a threat.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=394632&type=card

It doesn't take much for it to be a 1cc Chimeric Idol but it can grow significantly larger than that.

However, if Myth Realized doesn't live up to expectations, I think another great alternative is the creature that is completely dominating the Modern format right now, Death's Shadow.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=198372&type=card

It's easy to underestimate the card until you see it in action. A 1cc 7/7 or larger creature in the mid to late game when both players are low on life and emptied their hand is brutally effective. So much so that the Modern decks play a ton of self life sacrifice cards to make it work. But Legacy has access to Pox which singlehandedly deals a large blow to both players life totals, it's not one sided life loss like the cards that the Modern deck relies on. Smallpox shares this factor as well.

A single Pox shaves atleast 7 life off both you and your opponent's life total, throw in Thoughtseize, fetchlands and Smallpox and it's easy to see a 7/7 Death's Shadow being plopped down for a single mana threatening to end the game with a single swing while your opponent is reduced to top deck mode to pray for an answer.

I think a 2/2 split between Tombstalker and Death's Shadow works beautifully in a list like this that plays 4 Pox maindeck. Just swap the Chalices out with Thoughtseize and it would work.

Richard Arschmann

06-30-2017, 03:38 PM

Your list needs Thoughtseize for this meta. Combo is absolutely a thing and a turn 1 play is going to be critical against decks like ANT.

Pittplayer

06-30-2017, 05:33 PM

If you are playing w/b.. why not have a Helm of Obedience & Leyline of the Void/Rest in Peace sideboard plan? Gets around graveyard hate, ensnaring bridge, etc. You could even play enlightened tutor. Also having 4 sinkhole and 4 vindicate is clunky as heck. Sinkhole will not win vs show and tell, or delver, or storm, or death and taxes, I would at most play 3 sinkhole, 3 vindicate. Iok or seize is needed main board.

Clark Kant

07-16-2017, 05:00 PM

You guys are right, the old list was too slow, this is what I have settled on and have been very happy with...

Vaka Pox 2.0

// Mana
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

// Threats
3 Tombstalker
4 Liliana of the Veil

// Disruption
1 Raven's Crime
2 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Ghostly Prison

apple713

07-16-2017, 08:16 PM

Claymore

07-17-2017, 09:05 AM

That list is focused on mana denial. 4 Sinkhole, 3 Crucibles, 4 Vindicate. Keep the mana down and they can't swing in with a Ghostly Prison out, where with a Bridge they could stick a Noble or small creature and manage to swing in sometimes. Prison is also good against Pyromancer strategies.

Or it could be budget.

harbingerofthevoid

07-17-2017, 10:19 AM

not sure exactly why ghostly prison is better than ensnaring bridge...

Since they mentioned their old list was too slow and there are 3 Tombstalker, it's probably because Stalker can't attack through a Bridge.

Clark Kant

07-18-2017, 01:28 PM

Mana denial is the core of this decks strategy and it actually works really well. It plays more LD spells than most decks play land and pretty consistently keeps decks at 0-1 lands. Add in 4 Hymn and the other 6 discard spells and very few decks are able to execute their game plan. Tombstalker ends the game very quickly giving them only a small window during which to topdeck an answer.

The times I have played versus Show and Tell, they never once got to 4 mana to resolve a Sneak Attack and in the rare instance they managed to keep a Sol Land and island around long enough and managed to dodge the discard well enough to Show and Tell out an Emrakul, Smallpox, Pox or Liliana managed to take it out before they ever had a chance to swing with it.

The flexibility that Vindicate offers by being able to blow up literally any permanent is really helpful. Vs Death and Taxes, Aether Vial is Vindicates target number one but against most other decks, it serves as an additional LD spell with lots of flexibility when needed.

I still haven't tested Myth Realized but it seems like it could similarly end games in just 2 turns, however it works best if it's in your opening hand and makes for an awful topdeck so I don't think it quite fills that same roll.

Another option is playing Gurmag Angler instead of Tombstalker since it has a slightly lower delve cost, but I haven't tried it as I never had any issue paying TS's delve cost and flying over chump blockers to end the game can be helpful vs Elves.

Ensnaring Bridge is not a bad suggestion. But it would mean dropping the Tombstalker for Cursed Scroll and I am not convinced Bridge is worth the massive loss of speed that cutting Tombstalker would cause. The deck is already loaded with ways to kills opposing creatures and plays more removal than most decks play threats so not sure if Bridge is even needed. Tombstalker ending the game in 2-3 turns is much different from Scroll ending the game in 6-8 turns and only with the investment of 18-21 mana.

Clark Kant

07-24-2017, 12:32 AM

Updated List

// Mana
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

// Threats
1 Bloodghast
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Tombstalker
4 Liliana of the Veil

// Disruption
1 Raven's Crime
2 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
2 Toxic Deluge

MrFrowny_

10-03-2017, 10:17 PM

ClimbGneiss

10-04-2017, 02:34 PM

Anybody out there playing BW Pox at the moment? The regular pox thread gets more mono-black and BG Pox, but I'm interested in building BW and was curious if anyone has been playing it recently and had some advice. I've been playing mono-black for awhile and want to try something else.

I played it a long while ago - but, to date, I still like my build more than some builds I've seen on here. It can even be adapted to included collective brutality, I think.

This from memory and I adapted it for Fatal Push (removing Innocent Blood) and collective brutality (where I used to play top ). This list is probably far too 3 drop heavy, but the numbers don't matter it's more to illustrate/emphasize how important the card feels. For example, deluge, Diabolic Edict and Vindicate are especially useful depending in the matchup. You could probably just add a few Chrome Mox a la some random lists of Deadguy Ale that have had success in the past.

4 Smallpox
3 Collective Brutality
3 Liliana of the Veil
=10

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lingering Souls
1 Bitterblossom
=8

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fatal Push
2 Diabolic Edict
=9

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
=6

2 Vindicate
2 Toxic Deluge
= 4
=37

4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
=23

Sideboard :
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Disenchant
2 ContainmentPriest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 etc.

MrFrowny_

10-04-2017, 05:29 PM

I played it a long while ago - but, to date, I still like my build more than some builds I've seen on here. It can even be adapted to included collective brutality, I think.

This from memory and I adapted it for Fatal Push (removing Innocent Blood) and collective brutality (where I used to play top ). This list is probably far too 3 drop heavy, but the numbers don't matter it's more to illustrate/emphasize how important the card feels. For example, deluge, Diabolic Edict and Vindicate are especially useful depending in the matchup. You could probably just add a few Chrome Mox a la some random lists of Deadguy Ale that have had success in the past.

4 Smallpox
3 Collective Brutality
3 Liliana of the Veil
=10

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lingering Souls
1 Bitterblossom
=8

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fatal Push
2 Diabolic Edict
=9

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
=6

2 Vindicate
2 Toxic Deluge
= 4
=37

4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
=23

Sideboard :
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Disenchant
2 ContainmentPriest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 etc.

Do you not like the Flagstones synergy or do you think it's too much?

CptHaddock

10-05-2017, 10:12 AM

maharis

10-05-2017, 11:45 AM

I'm planning to try one actually. I had an Enlightened Tutor-based list made up a while ago when Top was still legal but I never picked up a crucible of worlds. I'm planning to revisit the idea again since I feel like Smallpox is brutal against land-DRS.dec:

2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Marsh Flats
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Scrubland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp

1 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Collective Brutality
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Koxzilek
4 Smallpox
4 Lingering Souls

3 Chrome Mox
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

SB:
2 Collective Brutality
1 Cursed Totem
1 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Zealous Persecution

Not sure about chrome moxes, but my feeling is they make busted T1 plays or can be pitched to Smallpox/Lili/Brutality.

I also like the idea of e-tutor into a Ritual target, which is why several of my bullets are 3 mana. I can't find a Trinisphere but that will probably make it in if I can track one down before my next weekly.

ClimbGneiss

10-05-2017, 02:48 PM

Do you not like the Flagstones synergy or do you think it's too much?

Oh, good point, I did actually play 2 Flagstones at the time. One is probably more appropriate. Also Karakas is good somewhere in the 75 as it a low cost addition because you can actually use the mana.

ghostfire86

02-18-2018, 12:07 AM

So I’ve been playing Mono Black Pox for a while now and it’s missing a lot of power in the current meta. Vaka Pox seems to have a route that I have been looking for. I think I’ll start play testing soon.

Captain Hammer

01-10-2021, 08:37 PM

I was told that the below deck is a Pox deck and of all the pox lists Ive found, this comes the closest....

14 B/w Land
4 Wasteland
2 Castle Lochwain
1 Agadeem's Awakening
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cling to Dust
2 Bloodchief's Thirst
2 Sinkhole
2 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Vindicate
2 Opposition Agent
2 Nighthawk Scavenger
2 Rotting Regisaur
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Reanimate
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Eliminate
1 Pox
1 Murderous Rider
1 Nullpriest of Oblivion
1 Plague Engineer
1 Jitte
1 Sword of FI
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
1 Damping Sphere
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
1 Surgical Extraction

Just cut any 13 cards from the maindeck above (based on the local meta you face or based on your own personal experience with the cards) and you're golden. Obviously, you would want to cut the more mana hungry cards if you opt to keep the Smallpox/Pox in, and if you opt to take those out, you would want to cut a few lands and some Bitterblossoms as well.

Vindicate is better than ever in this age of Planeswalkers.

Mr. Safety

01-11-2021, 07:00 AM

It looks like a hybrid deck to me, but mostly just a mid-range Stone-blade deck splashing a total of 3 pox cards (Smallpox, Pox.) I would quantify this as Deadguy Ale, but whatever. It definitely has a more prison-like approach, but that doesn't make it a Pox deck. Just my opinion!

As far as the deck goes, it looks really powerful. I wonder if the copy of Pox should just be another Sinkhole, and find a way to get all 4 copies in. With so many creatures Smallpox seems to do the job so much better than actual Pox, especially seeing that actual Pox decks don't use that card anymore. At 3 mana you can control your interaction better with Vindicate, Engineer, Agent, Rider, or Lilianas.

Clark Kant

01-11-2021, 12:46 PM

Love the updated list.

Opposition Agent works so well with Wasteland/Sinkhole/Vindicate (able to blow up basics) that it breathes new life into this strategy. Almost every deck is multicolor and runs fetchlands these days.

Dark Ritual into Opposition Agent (Or Thoughtseize+Hymn/Confidant) is amazing. Not sure that Stoneforge Mystic is needed. I would cut the whole Stoneforge 7 card package and make room for a full playset of Opposition Agent and possibly even something like Field of Ruin.

Vindicate Pox = Vaka Pox so it fits here. Would find room for a full playset of Sinkhole and possibly Smallpox and cut the Pox echoing Mr. Safety’s feedback.

Clark Kant

02-22-2023, 05:35 AM

Vindicate is no longer the powerhouse in legacy that it once was.

However, it got printed into Modern a few months ago alongside Mishra’s Factory and this made me want to port Vaka Pox into modern. More importantly, between Sheoldred's Edict, Vindicate and Bloodchief’s Thirst, there are finally enough flexible maindeckable answers to Wrenn and Six in Modern.

This is what I’m thinking…

Modern Vaka Pox

4 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Godless Shrine
2 Urza's Saga
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Field of Ruin
1 Castle Locthwain
1 Ifnir Deadlands
1 Plains

3 Bloodchief’s Thirst
4 Sheoldred's Edict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Karn's Sylex

1 Cling to Dust
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
1 Liliana the Last Hope
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Karn, the Great Creator

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Damping Sphere
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Void Mirror
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Plague Engineer
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor
2 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
2 Dauthi Voidwalker