[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

[wh33lz]

Yeah, but WTF is "Sea" Stompy? :rolleyes:

Actually its the common translation/title used by most japanese players describing fairie stompy in my experience. At least they kept the stompy in the name. The thing that ticked me off a little was people acting like UG thresh splashing w and r was some sort of secret new tech, and the general attitude by many that the "meta" is undeveloped. Seemed like a good number of the pt staple players disrespected the deck tuning and building of the legacy community that has been working on these decks for quite some time.

[Jaiminho]

First post ever!

I've been following Meathooks/Countersliver threads started by Volt everywhere on the net, as I was always a fan of slivers since the beginning of my casual play. A year ago, I searched the net for a legacy build with these crits and found those topics.

After starting to build a UGw thresh deck, things got a bit cleared about how my deck (which was an aggro-mostly version of Countersliver, with those 19 crits) was, in my sight, underpowered comparing to what it could be. Removing a few creatures, maintaining Aether Vial for a more secure "mana base" and adding a few cantrips was a natural path for that deck, in order to head where I wanted -- I mean, to be more controllish, as thresh.

Anyway, I have this as my current build (UWg):

// Lands (17) -- 16 blue sources, 8 shufflers, 3 basic lands (UW)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Plains

// Creatures (14)
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
4 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
4 [TE] Muscle Sliver
2 [TE] Winged Sliver

// Spells (29) -- 8 + 3 counters, 8 + 3 cantrips, 4 shufflers
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DS] AEther Vial

I have just recently switched to the counter-top engine, so I didn't twitch the deck a bit to my own way and will, as the number of Vials (2 or 3), counterbalances (3 or 4), tops, cantrips, et caetera.

But I still can't figure a nice sideboard for my meta. I usually face a lot of random aggro, random control and goblins. Since this deck is weaker than the aggroish Countersliver against goblins, I'd guess about plated slivers on the side, so I'd have more than simply 8 answers on the draw for turn 1 Lackey. Also, I haven't seen much good on crypt as an answer to goyf and since I don't have hibernation sliver around, I tried Talon Sliver and it has been working quite well, except after taking EE. Any suggestions for a sideboard? I even thought of including Stifle, since it has been nice against random aggro decks, and since it was in my maindeck before counter-top came in.

Harmonic Sliver ?
Plated Sliver ?
Winter Orb ?
Talon Sliver ?
Tormod's Crypt ?
Stifle ?

Note: I still didn't try the UWb build of countersliver simply because I don't have any Underground Seas.

[cheddercaveman]

I think that realistically speaking there is no reason to play this version of countersliver over threshold because crystalline sliver doesnt give you enough to make up the difference. The advantage here is that each creature you play helps out, but you have only around 12-15 guys you might as well just play thresh, this has in fact been mentioned in the thread before.

[Jaiminho]

I have only 1 goyf and a goyf-less thresh is weaker than countersliver, as I have seen it.

Besides, I enjoy playing this deck much more.

As a third reason, I don't want to be one of those 20% that plays thresh in the format. :tongue:

[Volt]

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[Jaiminho]

Pulse of the Fields? Lets you get back from Hibernation's lifeloss as long as you can.

[Volt]

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[tpnp]

It's an instant that costs 1WW. Yep, I'm going to make you guess. Anyway, I'm considering it as a 1-of or 2-of. I'm not sure yet if it's worthy, but it's definitely interesting and has some synergy with the deck.
Second Sunrise? That definitely makes my wheels start turning.

edit: Oops, too little, too late.

[cheddercaveman]

I definitely prefer the UWb CounterTop version to the UWg CounterTop version, but I guess if you don't have Underground Seas, then you don't have 'em. Honestly, though, Hibernation Sliver is the only semi-legitimate reason to play Countersliver over Thresh right now.

Btw, I'm currently testing a heretofore undiscussed card in my UWb CounterTop build. It's an instant that costs 1WW. Yep, I'm going to make you guess. Anyway, I'm considering it as a 1-of or 2-of. I'm not sure yet if it's worthy, but it's definitely interesting and has some synergy with the deck.

Sorry, but Hibernation Sliver is terrible. I haven't liked it from the beginning. Its definitely not better than Muscle Sliver who's redundant ability with Sinew Sliver is the primary reason that this deck is competative. Hibernation Sliver costs you a lot of life to only be able to hold off 'goyf for a little while. If your blocking and bouncing each turn, thats you taking 2 and them 0 probably, or its a creature stare down. I talked to another buddy of mine who plays this deck weekly in a fairly competative legacy environment and he had the same things to say. The fact that your considering playing bad cards just to offset a bad effect seems to validate my point doesnt it?

Also, what is the counter top doing that we don't get with just good old counters (FoW, Daze, Counterspell, Stifle), because it seems to me that the first 2 turns, I'd rather play slivers and vial than top and counterbalance. I think if you want to play counterbalance look at more of a fish type deck than this one.

[Volt]

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[Pinder]

Sorry, but you and your buddy are wrong. Hibernation Sliver is amazing.


Don't feel bad, I thought the same thing for a long time, too. It's not that great against Gobs, but Gobs aren't really around much anymore. They're much better in a meta full of Thresh, Deed, and EE.

Thanks for playing, though.



Look, continue to play the UWg version if you want to beat Goblins but lose hard-core to anything that runs Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed or any sort of mass removal in the maindeck.


What he said. Again.



As for CounterTop, if you're asking "Why play it?" you're behind the times. There's a reason why it's gaining a ton of momentum in Thresh decks. Matches against Thresh are often decided by who gets down CounterTop first. It's also the stone cold nuts against Burn, Sligh and most combo decks.

I still don't use Countertop maindeck, because I use the 4c list and I don't habe room to squeeze it in, but I plan to test the UWb list volt has been hyping. I'll get back to you.

[AngryTroll]

I was also skeptical about Hibernation Sliver, but Volt and Pinder are right. If you plan on facing any sort of mass removal during a tournament (EE, Deed, Wrath, Damnation, whatever), Hibernation Sliver > > Muscle Sliver. If you expect to play against Goblins all night, Muscle Sliver + Plated Sliver > Hibernation Sliver. With Goblins on the decline and Thresh and Landstill on the rise, in most metagames, Hibernation Sliver will be the better choice. Even if Goblins is still popular, white still offers Talon and Plated Slivers.

If your meta is not super heavy on Thresh and other decks that are super vulnerable to Counterbalance, it is perfectly reasonable to put it in the sideboard. However, it should be in the 75 cards somewhere. Top is good enough to be run mainboard in the deck, so the three or four slots of the sideboard Counterbalance takes up are worth their weight in gold against Thresh, Burn, Sligh, etc.

[Volt]

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[Zuriya]

Did anyone try Frenetic Sliver or is the sliver count too low that it would matter ? As targeted removal and sweepers are so common, it seems like he could give you some card advantage.
If you are stern about not including more slivers, you might as well play Threshold.

[Jaiminho]

(...) you might as well play Threshold.

How many times people must say this? I think it is pretty clear already that there is no "real legitimate reason to play this deck over thresh".

[Volt]

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[electrolyze]

which meathooks build is the best in a combo, deadguy, loam meta:tongue: ?

becuase im really interested in the deck but first i want to know which build for what meta.

greets, electrolyze

[Benie Bederios]

How many times people must say this? I think it is pretty clear already that there is no "real legitimate reason to play this deck over thresh".

Graveyardhate is another advantage, Crystaline Sliver the third and coolness the fourth.

[Volt]

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[electrolyze]

ok, thanks, then im gonna build the ugw list because my meta is very much of that kind of decks and some thresh too. actually, im happy that that list is the best in that meta because i dont really like green and i realy like black in legacy.

[Jaiminho]

BTW, how has been the absence of Harmonic Sliver and Meddling Mage on the sideboard going?

[Volt]

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[wh33lz]

// lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains

// artifacts & enchantments
3 Aether Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

// creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

// instants & sorceries
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

// sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
4 Planar Void
3 Vindicate



I've been playing with your list lately volt to see if I liked it more or less than the UWg version and have a couple questions...

First: Are the plagues really required in the board? I know they are for gobos but I've been struggling to figure out what comes out for them, not to mention how hard it has been to actually resolve one under upkeep porting.

Second: Why PVoid over Leyline? In the matchups in which its relevant to bring in isn't the potential of starting with it in play overriding the increased cc?

Third: We tried 4 Underground Sea and 7 sac lands as opposed to the 3 and 8. Is the additional shuffle effect worth the additional damage you take and the higher risk of stifle?

Fourth: I see most current lists running ponder over portent. Is the instant card replacement offered by ponder really better than the opportunity to either mana flood/screw or shuffle your opponents library? I still seem to enjoy portent more than ponder.

Last: Are any of you guys willing to work with me and my test group on a more consistant basis as we would like to help get this deck further up the dtb list also.

Kyle

[Volt]

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[Curby]

Second: Why PVoid over Leyline? In the matchups in which its relevant to bring in isn't the potential of starting with it in play overriding the increased cc?

Fourth: I see most current lists running ponder over portent. Is the instant card replacement offered by ponder really better than the opportunity to either mana flood/screw or shuffle your opponents library? I still seem to enjoy portent more than ponder.


From what I hear, PVoid is better than Leyline unless you're playing against Ichorid, so whether you use one or the other depends on how much Ichorid you see in the meta. PVoid keeps goyf small, which is related to why folks were talking about Morningtide over Tormod's Crypt. PVoid avoids nasty tricks like Extirpate. PVoid is much easier to cast when it's not in your first hand (though I suppose that if it were to matter, you'd just mull into oblivion until you got it). Getting Leyline out on turn zero is nice, but actually an equally big concern is that PVoid lets things hit the graveyard at all, allowing your opponent's triggered effects to fire. Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that you don't really care about your yard, so denying all possible opponents BOTH yards is more generally effective.

The only thing I'd still consider Portent in is a deck with a lot of overlapping denial/removal. I played 'hooks against GU Thresh that did this, and it was very effective to Stifle/Waste some of my lands, then Portent and shuffle/Predict away some lands that I would have drawn. Even if you're running Wastes and Stifles but not Predict, it seems you'd still use Ponder... oftentimes you really need that answer/threat, and you can't cast these as Instants to "cheat" by casting at end of turn!

[xsockmonkeyx]

The philosophical problem that I have with all the lists with such low sliver counts (14-15) is that the number of slivers you have on the board is one of the major contributing factors to their overall strength.

Take for example the power gap between 2 slivers on the board and 3. Here is a breakdown for all combinations of 2 and 3 slivers from the UWg list.

2 Cards - 2cc
2 Plated = 2x 1/3 = 2 Board Power

2 Cards - 3cc
1 Plated, 1 Wing = 2x 1/2 Flying = 2 Board Power
1 Plated, 1 Muscle = 2x 2/3 = 4 Board Power
1 Plated, 1 Crystalline = 1x 2/3, 1x 1/2 Shroud = 2 Board Power

2 Cards - 4cc
2 Crystalline = 2x 2/2 = 4 Board Power, Shroud
1 Crystalline, 1 Muscle = 1x 3/3, 1x 2/2 = 5 Board Power, Shroud
1 Crystalline, 1 Wing = 1x 2/2, 1x 1/1 = 3 Board Power, Flying, Shroud
1 Muscle, 1 Wing = 2x 2/2 = 4 Board Power, Flying
2 Muscle = 2x 3/3 = 6 Board Power
2 Wing = 2x 1/1 = 2 Board Power, Flying

3 Cards - 3cc
3 Plated = 3x 1/4 = 3 Board Power

3 Cards - 4cc
2 Plated, 1 Muscle = 3x 2/4 = 6 Board Power
2 Plated, 1 Crystal = 3x 1/3 = 3 Board Power, Shroud
2 Plated, 1 Winged = 3x 1/3 = 3 Board Power, Flying

3 Cards - 5cc
1 Plated, 1 Crystalline, 1 Muscle, = 1x 3/4, 2x 2/3 = 7 Board Power, Shroud
1 Plated, 2 Muscle = 3x 3/4 = 9 Board Power

3 Cards - 6cc
2 Crystalline, 1 Muscle = 2x 3/3, 1x 2/2 = 8 Board Power, Shroud
2 Crystalline, 1 Wing = 2x 2/2, 1x 2/2 = 5 Board Power, Flying, Shroud
1 Crystalline, 2 Muscle = 1x 4/4, 2x 3/3 = 10 Board Power, Shroud
2 Muscle, 1 Wing = 3x 3/3 = 9 Board Power, Flying
1 Muscle, 2 Wing = 3x 2/2 = 6 Board Power, Flying
1 Crystalline, 1 Muscle, 1 Wing = 1x 3/3, 2x 2/2 = 7 Board Power, Flying, Shroud
3 Crystalline = 3x 2/2 = 6 Board Power, Shroud
3 Muscle = 3x 4/4 = 12 Board Power
3 Wing = 3x 1/1 Flying = 3 Board Power, Flying

2 Slivers on the board isnt much to write home about but 3 slivers starts to be formidable. The jump from 3 to 4 is even more impressive.



P=S(X+1)+C where P = board power; S = # of slivers you control; X = # of Muscle/Sinew Slivers; C = # of Crystalline Slivers.

Remember this? Its the equation for overall board power for slivers. There are only 8 possible slots in your deck for X but there is nothing stopping you from expanding on S as every sliver in your deck that you lay down gives you +1 S. If you are limiting the number of slivers in your deck you are also limiting your opportunity to expand S.


Last: Are any of you guys willing to work with me and my test group on a more consistant basis as we would like to help get this deck further up the dtb list also.


Sure, you can hit me up on AIM and we could do some brainstorming or MWS play (that is if I can fix it :/ ). PM me if youre interested.

[Volt]

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[xsockmonkeyx]

Bah. Philosophy shmilosophy. Just play the damn deck. :cool:

Oh, reeeal productive Volt.

First convince me that 14 Slivers is enough when you need 3 of them on the board to do anything. Also convince me that 14 slivers is enough for Vial to be worth its weight. Please use arguments instead of smiley faces, jerkass.

[cheddercaveman]

Oh, reeeal productive Volt.

First convince me that 14 Slivers is enough when you need 3 of them on the board to do anything. Also convince me that 14 slivers is enough for Vial to be worth its weight. Please use arguments instead of smiley faces, jerkass.


I'm actually in the same boat here. 14 slivers is just plain and simply not better than threshold. The counterbalance plan takes away even more slots too, I'm not saying its bad, but I still fail to understand how this is giving the deck more than it had. I'm gonna say this until I'm blue in the face, but the way that slivers wins is that all of the slivers help each other out, with only 14 of them thats not enough. Also, I think you're way too concerned about the landstill matchup, yes its bad, but its winnable, and we're hurting most of our other matchups with the black splash. Also with only 14 creatures, I'm pretty sure this is a better creature suite...

4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer

If your going to play this deck I think we need to have the extra slivers like before and most of the time it needs to be played as an aggresive deck, not a deck sitting back and playing counterbalance. Only against combo would i want the counterbalance, and it could really just as easily be meddling mages that come in for stopping combo. Hell I out PACED belcher putting I think 12 empty tokens on the table on either turn 2 or 3.

Personally, this seems like what I'd want this kind of start 90% of the time...

Turn 1: Vial
Turn 2: Vial @ 1; Play Crystalline Sliver, Vial in Plated Sliver
Turn 3: Vial @ 2; Play Muscle Sliver, Vial in Sinew Sliver, Swing for 7
Turn 4: Vial @ 2; Swing for 13, extend hand shake to my opponent.

While with the counterbalance plan it'll be more like this...

Turn 1: Play Top
Turn 2: Play Counterbalance, Cast Force of Will so that it gets in play (this would be true above in some cases too no doubt)
Turn 3: Play Hibernation Sliver, Spin top once
Turn 4: Play Sinew Sliver, Attack for 3
Turn 5: Play Crystalline Sliver, Attack for 5
Turn 6: Play Sinew Sliver, Attack for 11

Ok, I'll stop there. They might be dead by turn 6, its normally safe to assume that in Legacy your opponent fetched. That said, it was a full 2 turns slower. Yes, you could get something that was more of a blowout than that, but you need to leave mana open for the countertop if your going to play it, otherwise its useless. Furthermore, with only 14 creatures, drawing into them isn't going to be the easiest thing in the world. In my example I played 2 of the same creature the 2nd time around, thats actually statistically just not going to happen often. In the first example I didnt even play a creature on turn 4, thats how fast the deck can be, makes it tough for a board sweeper that your opponent might have to be effective. Especially if your holding a daze/force/counter.

[Volt]

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[david_ir1]

Oh, reeeal productive Volt.

First convince me that 14 Slivers is enough when you need 3 of them on the board to do anything. Also convince me that 14 slivers is enough for Vial to be worth its weight. Please use arguments instead of smiley faces, jerkass.

I don't think we're going anyway using this language. I think we should keep a good attitude in the forums, shouldn't we?


Yes, my UWb CounterTop version of the deck is considerably slower than good old UWg Meathooks. I never said otherwise. Whereas Meathooks is an AGGRO-control deck, UWb Countertop is an aggro-CONTROL deck. The strategy and play-style is different, but no less viable.


You're absolutely right, one very important thing is to remember how important is it to play a deck that suits your play style, some people would prefer a more control-oriented deck, and for me that's fine, It's surely a viable choice. I'm sure your decklist works and the card choices you made are ok, I won't go dismissing your deck, it's a different approach, as simple as that, and I think everybody should respect that.

A very different issue is to agree on your card choices, I think it depends so much on the metagame you expect to fight against, for example, in Spain there's always going to be a lot of goblins, and you have to deal with them. That's the reason I prefer a faster, more aggro-ish build; but before I came to this version I tested myself the counter-top engine maindeck (everybody should test variations before dismissing other people's ideas) and I decided it was not worth it in my meta. Anyway I agree counter-top is a very powerful tool, but I think the mana denial strategy (stifle + wasteland) and the 18-19 slivers is the best possible way to go.



P=S(X+1)+C where P = board power; S = # of slivers you control; X = # of Muscle/Sinew Slivers; C = # of Crystalline Slivers.

Remember this? Its the equation for overall board power for slivers. There are only 8 possible slots in your deck for X but there is nothing stopping you from expanding on S as every sliver in your deck that you lay down gives you +1 S. If you are limiting the number of slivers in your deck you are also limiting your opportunity to expand S.


Awesome analysis, I agree with you that the more slivers the better. Everybody please think now about a Counterslivers mirror match... who wins?

The more slivers, the "slyest" (ok, i made up this one)


And now time for brainstorming:

1) Is Meddling mage necessary in the board if you play Stifle maindeck?
2) How do you deal with Ichorid? I'm thinking of 3 Tormod's crypt in the board, the graveyard decks seem to be on the rise. Expect them everywhere after their results at Worlds.
3) What's your sideboard plan against the life decks? Expect them everywhere as well after their results at Worlds.
4) In the Spanish Legacy championship I swapped the 2 Worship from the board to 2 Essence sliver, and never looked back. No monored or RG agro at Worlds... what do you think?

Discuss!

[cheddercaveman]

This is the problem I've yet to see addressed. Why play slivers if we're only running 14 of them? It doesnt make sense, lets compare shall we...

For the sake of argument, lets assume that we have a UGw Thresh and your UWb countersliver. Ok, we're assuming both are running countertop in the same numbers (3/3). Lets also assume that there is 1 each of the creatures in the 14 in play and compare. Lets also assume that they have threshold because that is really not difficult to do at all. We'll also assume conservatively that 'goyf is a 4/5.

Nimble Mongoose (3/3) + Tarmogoyf (4/5)+ Meddling Mage (2/2)+ Mystic Enforcer (6/6)

Combined Power/Toughness = 15/16

Winged Sliver (2/2) + Sinew Sliver(2/2) + Hibernation Sliver (3/3) + Crystalline Sliver (3/3)

Combined Power/Toughness = 10/10

Now, I'm not pretending that this shows the entire story. More of their creatures are open to StP because all of the slivers are untargetable while only their mongoose is. All the slivers are flying, they only have enforcer. Of course on the other hand, 'goyf could get as big as 6/7 a lot easier than you might think. Meddling Mage stops a lot of stuff potentially. Mystic Enforcer also has pro-black. Threshold was also assumed here, but really the way the deck blows through fetches, counters, and cantrips I dont think any of us are fooling ourselves into thinking that its difficult to do so.

So, please tell me what reason that we have to not play thresh if we're only playing 14 slivers? Lets look at this board position on the other hand, for the sake of argument i assumed only adding the plated as opposed to plated and talon.

Winged Sliver (3/4) + Sinew Sliver(3/4) + Muscle Sliver(3/4) + Crystalline Sliver (4/5) + Plated Sliver (3/4)

Combined power/toughtness = 16/21

This also doesnt take into account that having 3 muscle/sinew in play does happen quite often.

I'm still debating the countertop plan, and no its not just universally considered to be awesome. I've seen it played more and then less a lot. Typically it depends on how much control/combo vs aggro there is out there.

What I'm looking for is a reason why your 14 sliver package is better. If I missed the previous explanation here I apologize in advance for not reading though every page of the forum.

[Volt]

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[Jaiminho]

I have playtested the UWb CounterTopSliver and it has been really good. Hibernation kicks huge ass for its bouncing ability. Bounce blocking with a few slivers is never the last option, as you'd take that damage anyway, so why not to take maybe less and now have the upper hand. If you are low at life, you would chump block anyway, so what the hell...

I gotta get me those Underground Seas... or at least borrow them. Champ coming at day 22. Solo-Goyf UGw Thresh or the uber fun UWb CounterTopSliver (if I get those things in time)?

BTW, played UGw Thresh at a small 8 people champ today for 2-0-1. :tongue:

[Tacosnape]

Why isn't this deck running Mirror Entity, exactly?

Since you're essentially running a deck with all 1/1 and a couple 2/2 creatures, and since Mirror Entity's ability works in layer 6B to Muscle/Sinew's 6D (IE, Three mana + Entity/Muscle/Sinew/Crystalline = Swing for 21), This allows for you to quickly amass an untargetable horde of Slivers that can match size with Tarmogoyfs.

[Kronicler]

Frankly, this man speaks the truth. Why mess around with Top / CB when entity just gives you the win against thresh / gobos / anything that isn't combo? Another + of it is that mirror entity allows all our slivers to be much better individually, which means that we could just with with crystalline and mirror entity against control and be hitting them for a lot each turn.

Kronicler

[Jak]

What ever happened to the 4c version of this deck? I thought the list was awesome. Was the mana base just too fragile?

[Volt]

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[Jak]

I really want to try this out. The UWG version because it is cheaper. I like the mana disruption strategy. List:

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Aether Vial

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

The thing I hate is the 15 Slivers. I really want to add Plated to make it more aggresive. There is like nothing to cut, however. The stuff off the top of my head would be 2 Ponders and a Daze. I actually like that. Edit -2 Ponder, -1 Daze, + 3 Plated SLiver

SB
4 Needle
3 Krosan Grip
8 Hydroblast/Crypt/Counter-Top/stuff

[godryk]

Well, I can see Mirror Entity in a UWb version of the deck, as a source of extra power, because, as stated before, thar version may lack of power. In other versions I think we have more than enough with 8 Muscle Slivers.

[xsockmonkeyx]

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Aether Vial

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver


How about switching out 2 Ponder for 2 SDT? It would make the transition to countertop much easier out of the board and would free up a couple possible slots for your board.

[cheddercaveman]

I agree there are a lot of reasons that slivers are quite good. Yes, they slap goblins around, which is definitely the first thing that brought them to my attention. The other thing though is raw power. The clock of the UWg deck is absolutely amazing, and its backed up with counters which are amazing at stopping the stuff that we need to long enough to get just 1 more attack in. That is the difference that I see in playing the higher sliver count version (regardless of colors). The reason I don't like the 4 mana deck is that the mana base becomes ridiculously fragile, and also I think you had it with thoughtseize which made for a lot of life loss.

The thing all the decks have in common is Crystalline Sliver, which I think we're both in agreement is a backbreaker to a lot of other deck's disruption, and if we use aether vial to play it that takes care of the blue disruption too. I personally still feel that the countertop plan is slow, but I agree that its very powerful at stopping combo and fairly useful at stopping control. Of course the control cards that I'm worried about are...

Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
Wrath of God
Damnation
Nevinyrral's Disk

EE we can counter unless they get cute and pay an extra colorless for it. The others are much more difficult however. I'm actually inclined to agree with another poster that for the UWb version that Mirror Entity might not be a bad include, probably as a 1 or 2-of is all, it does have a CMC = 3, and the ability to be absolutely backbreaking in some cases. I can see your comments about clunky and overkill too though, but it would provide a way to hit their deed, a much better way than pulse of (don't remember) IMO.

[Volt]

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[Tacosnape]

Well, I can see Mirror Entity in a UWb version of the deck, as a source of extra power, because, as stated before, thar version may lack of power. In other versions I think we have more than enough with 8 Muscle Slivers.

God no. Mirror Entity's better in the green. Why on earth would you cut green? Muscle Sliver and SB Harmonic Sliver are awesome. They both improve your Goblins matchups and make things like Affinity, Stax, and Enchantress a pushover.

The whole -point- of Mirror Entity is the synergy with the Muscle/Sinew effects. Even with Muscle/Sinew, you aren't handling full-sized Tarmogoyfs unless you outnumber them via Goblins, which Counterbalance will hurt. Mirror Entity gives you an out to that. You can swing with 6/6 to 8/8 Slivers without much difficulty depending on the mana you come across. Mirror Entity turns 3-4 Slivers into a one-shot lethal horde, and if combined with Winged Sliver basically just lets you swing and win unimpeded.

Additionally, Vial / Mirror Entity is an insane combat trick.

[Jaiminho]

Why don't you all test this and only then share those results? The way I see you discussing seems like these ideas are nothing more than theories, which mean little. Just don't give up after one awful game... test them until exhaustion.

[Volt]

.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Of course, this is not to discourage people from trying it for themselves. Nobody seems to believe anything I say much these days.

I believe you. I just need an explanation every now and then.

Here, have some smilies: :cool: :smile: :tongue: :cool: :laugh: :smile: :tongue:

[Volt]

.

[Benie Bederios]

I think I'm starting to like this deck... In my meta there is alot of Black discard and non-goblin aggro( Rg Beats, Affinity, WW) which version whould you suggest? I'm sorry if this is already asked I screened through some pages and couldn't find it.

BB

[xsockmonkeyx]

I think I'm starting to like this deck... In my meta there is alot of Black discard and non-goblin aggro( Rg Beats, Affinity, WW) which version whould you suggest? I'm sorry if this is already asked I screened through some pages and couldn't find it.

BB

You want to start with the green version with 8 muscles and 3 winged if you are expecting a lot of non-goblin aggro. With the green version you also get Harmonic to fight off Affinity and WW equipment.

[Pinder]

Hey there! Thanks to our good friend Bill Stark over at TCGplayer, we have 2 decklists from the people who played Slivers at Worlds. First up, a 4 color list from Joaquin Tejero Hernandez



Slivers
Joaquin Tejero Hernandez
2007 Worlds New York, NY
Legacy

Main Deck:
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Harmonic Sliver
1 Hibernation Sliver
3 Pithing Needle
4 Planar Void

Alright, first thing I notice is only 2 Muscle Sliver, with 4 Plated Sliver. I would probably go the other way around, myself, if I was playing Plated at all. Also, what is it with people and only running 4 cantrips in this deck? I realize Stifle is good, but you want your Ponders IMO. The 1 Trop looks a little odd, but I suppose it's justified if he's only running 2 Muscle.

The sideboard Plagues look a little funny. Maybe he was expecting Gobs and, um....other Slivers? The Planar Voids also look odd, but those were probably there for Ichorid, and I suppose they help vs. Tarmogoyf as well.


Another list comes from Jimmy Sam:


Slivers
Jimmy Sam
2007 Worlds New York, NY
Legacy

Main Deck:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Breeding Pool
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Snare
3 Tormod's Crypt


A classic UWg list featuring the 'Perfect 19'. Again, only 4 cantrips, though. I guess pros really like their Stifles. I admit it's nice in conjunction with Wasteland, but I really like Ponder in those slots. A lot. And having only 7 lands that can produce colored mana seems to be skating it a little thin. I'm just going to assume the Breeding Pool was because he couldn't find a Trop.

Sideboard looks like fairly standard stuff, although I would have put in at least one more Needle.

What do people think?

[Jaiminho]

In my experience, Stifle has always been nice even without those Wastelands, but they don't deserve the spots for the 4-8th cantrips. And even with 8 cantrips I would find myself in topdeck mode a little more often than I'd wish, so SDT helps too much for me to get rid of it, even if there are no maindeck CBs. In a deck using the "perfect 19", I'd probably not play them, tho. Also, I don't think I even need to mention that Stifle counters EE, Power Keg and Deed, which are a huge problem for any deck that doesn't run hibernation. And, to be honest, I used to have 2 Stifles and 7 cantrips (4 Brainstorm + 3 Ponder) on the aggro list.

About the first list, I'd have gone with 3 Muscle, maybe. Plated is a good turn 1 on the draw response to Lackey. But those lands are bothering me. I'd switch Scrubland for a basic Island and maybe 1 Tundra for another Tropical (in the case of 3+ Muscle). With almost every initial hand with Aether Vial I fetch a basic Island, which takes care of casting Daze, Stifle and Brainstorm already. I can care about StPing stuff later.

That second list is almost the aggro list I've been using until now. Take away 1 Aether Vial, 1 Breeding Pool, 1 Stifle and 3 Wasteland and put in 3 Ponder, 2 Island and 1 Plains.

[Volt]

.

[Jaiminho]

Why the 4 vials? Isn't 16 lands too light for Armageddon?

[Volt]

.

[Curby]

The question is if 16 lands is too few period. The thing I hate most about this is the fragile landbase, in every sense of the word. There are a lot of colors, few lands, and many disruptable lands (Stifle/Wasteland/etc.) Sure we've got Vials, but people have played everything from Force of Will to Pithing Needle to Krosan Grip to Faith's Fetters on my Vials, so it's no sure thing either even if you draw one. Hell, I run 18 lands in my monochromatic low-curve decks (though admittedly they don't have much search).

Of course you now have 10 shuffle effects and 10 diggers, but it still scares the crap out of me. =)

By the way, why did you move two Needles into the main? Was it a metagaming decision? I might prefer another Winged and another land instead.

I definitely don't think it's a waste of time, though this is obviously much more of a control than an aggro build. Over the holidays I won't really get the chance to go to many events, so I won't be able to test much, but I hope to use it a lot more in '08. Thanks for the continued development!

(My main concerns with dropping green are the decreased chance to take an aggro role with +1/+1 slivers, and the lack of Harmonic Sliver. (I don't own Vindicates, heh.))

EDIT: Ah screw it... I'll just use Disenchants (or Oblivion Rings) for now. +1 Fetchland +1 Winged -2 Pithing Needle

[Volt]

.

[Pinder]

Okay, I went back to 17 lands, but I'm also keeping 4 Aether Vials. I really wanted to find a way to fit a couple Pithing Needles maindeck to combat Explosives and Deeds, but the deck is just too tight. Back to the SB they go. Back in come land #17 and Ponder #4.

This is what I did, except I upped the land to 18 and cut a Vial. With so much digging power, I really think that 3 is enough when you only have 14 creatures. '

I played the list last night, and ended up 1-1-1 drop, but I think that's just because my meta is a little too random, so CounterTop doesn't counter nearly as much as it should. That, and I got stuck under 3 ghostly prisons one game. It was horrible.

If I had to pick and choose, though, my vote for favorite would still go to 4c, if only because I'm more comfortable piloting it.

edit - Also, Extirpate is an amazing SB option here. I'll explain more later (my lunch is almost over), but just try it.

[raharu]

Not to be random, but I have a few cards to introduce to the discusion. Is Necrotic Sliver a valid replacement for Vindicate? With 2 (ish) Sliversmiths they have a good chance to have a larger impact than Vindicate, though I will concede that Necrotics are more cost intensive than Vindicate. While it has been mentioned, is Sliversmith even a canditate for finding a home here? Pitching dead cards to fortify your creaturebase seems pretty solid, but I wouldn't know. Now the obvious question (at least this is obvious to me): has anyone Tested Lim-Dul's Vault? I would think that this would have been thought of sooner, but I have a tendency to put this card into any UB deck that wants to see certant cards in a given situation... Oh well, It's just a thought and I hope I've managed give Volt something to run with and forge some more inovation.

[arsenalpow]

Mutavault
Land
Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1: Mutavault becomes a 2/2 creature with all creature types until end of turn. It's still a land.
Some changelings born at Velis Vel never return, but their essence never leaves.
Rare.

So its a mishra's factory that gets pumped by all his sliver friends when activated......seems synergistic

[Volt]

.

[AngryTroll]

I just commented in the Morningtide Thread about that same card. Because the deck runs 4 Vial and 3 Diving Tops (talking about the Volt version, not the Pinder 4c version), the deck can drop one of these first turn (assuming the worst) and still be alright for colored mana.

Running 4 seems terrible, but perhaps bumping the land count back to 18 and running two of these would be a solid inclusion. Early on, they shouldn't set you back, but later in the game, they are as big as any other sliver the deck runs. They can even attack, return to hand with Hibernation, and block, for 2 land and the land drop for the turn.

[kicks_422]

What Mutavault could do is shift Landstill entirely out of white (no need for Nantuko Monasteries, and StP is replaceable I guess) and run this alongside Factories and Goyfs (in some builds) into UBG with Deeds, Edicts, Explosives, and other cards that MeatHooks hates to see.

Landstill is such a bad matchup anyway that it probably won't matter.

[david_ir1]

Stp is not replaceable in any deck that runs it. Best removal in the game. Full stop.

[kicks_422]

Not when you have a Crystalline Sliver out, which was kinda the whole point of what i was saying. If Landstill drops white, the MU becomes impossible to win, since out go the only 4 cards that are dead in their deck against MeatHooks.

[godryk]

Take a look on that list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12421) in what I think it has to be an online tournament.

I like the list because it tests some aspects of the deck that have been recently discussed in this thread.

It includes the Counterbalance lock (in the SB) and the Vial+Wasteland+Stifle package, by cutting some cantrips and creatures, and counts 61 cards, including a single random Pulse of the Fields, to reduce Hibernations Sliver's drawback and a single Mirror Entity.

I also liked the SB, very black-based

[Lukas Preuss]

That was the Dülmen tournament on December 16th. No online tournament, but a real one with real participants. From what I heard, Countersliver was kind of heavily played at that tournament, but I can't find anything online to back this up.

[Volt]

.

[Curby]

Not to be random, but I have a few cards to introduce to the discusion. Is Necrotic Sliver a valid replacement for Vindicate? With 2 (ish) Sliversmiths they have a good chance to have a larger impact than Vindicate, though I will concede that Necrotics are more cost intensive than Vindicate. While it has been mentioned, is Sliversmith even a canditate for finding a home here? Pitching dead cards to fortify your creaturebase seems pretty solid, but I wouldn't know. Now the obvious question (at least this is obvious to me): has anyone Tested Lim-Dul's Vault? I would think that this would have been thought of sooner, but I have a tendency to put this card into any UB deck that wants to see certant cards in a given situation... Oh well, It's just a thought and I hope I've managed give Volt something to run with and forge some more inovation.

Back from vacation, and now Morningtide's coming? I've got a playset (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Morningtide) already. :tongue:

I guess the silence is answer enough, but Necrotic Sliver costs way too much in a deck that might only see 2-3 lands per game. Sure you can Vial it in, but Vials at 3 are dangerous things in themselves.

Since Sliversmith is a nonSliver creature itself, the answer is no. In other words, if you're not gonna run Tarmogoyf, you're not gonna run Sliversmith. That it takes a whole extra turn, mana, and card to make a bad sliver, the answer is further no. Sliversmith and Necrotic Sliver isn't really a great combo either... you're trading a card and 4 mana for one of their cards... everything's an expensive Vindicate in a deck that can't take expense. For a taste of something like that, try Death and Taxes! =)

Lim Dul's Vault is difficult because it costs 2 and 1 card, compared to 1 and no cards. Sure it searches deep, but you can cast it no sooner than the ultra-critical turn 2, when Slivers should start hitting the board in the aggro builds, and Counterbalance should hit the board in the aggro-control builds. We've already said no to everything from Wishes to Tutors, so I don't see how this could compete for room in this tight deck. I also love the card, but relegate it to casual play. If you agree that it can never replace Brainstorm or Ponder, you're left trying to fit more search into this deck that already has 8-11. If you think it's better than Brainstorm or Ponder, I suggest you give them another try.

[Volt]

.

[raharu]

Cross-posted from the Top 4's & Top 8's Thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2587&page=28):




EDIT: And here's the decklist (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=196299&postcount=559):

List



To whomever ran that list, I have a few questions:

How was the random 1-of Eladamri’s Call? The 1-of Tarmogoyf? It seems out of place, that 'Goyf... Did you ever wish that the Call was the 4th Ponder? How is the Winged Sliver in the board? Would you want run Morningtide as GY/ 'Goyf hate if you dropped your 'Goyf, or is 'Goyf handled well enough with Crypt and StP?

Snow-Covered Island ^_^ I really liked the Talon Sliver in the board. I mean. I like it alot.

That's it.

[DutchMojo]

the call is my second harmonic as well as my 3th winged, if not its a slow muscle or crystalline at the least. Never wished it was ponder, with call you know what you get. the Goyf was random fun to see the look on my opponents faces when they had just dropped one of there own. i stated that in my tournament report witch you should read.

winged in board is there manly against agro matchups, but i havent seen a lot of them, so is talon. I dont intend to handle goyf with crypt or StP, i plan to handle it with 2 or 3 3/3 first striking slivers.
And yes, ill be taking out the goyf as soon as i get some dude to pay me 30 euro's for it (thats over 40 dollars)

[raharu]

Maybe drop the 'Goyf for another Call? How were the Plated Silvers?

[Volt]

.

[raharu]

@ Volt: possibly 2 Calls would be better? I'm pretty sure that they're good, but I really would like 12 Muscle Slivers (:laugh:). I might have run either Sidewinders or Talons in thier place though. 2x and 3x Sidewinders make me giggle.

@ DutchMojo: I notice there is no Pithing Neeedle to speak of. Was the environment simply devoid of Engineered Explosives or were you able play around/ through it?

[DutchMojo]

I took a random 1 off counterspell out for the goyf, don't think i would spend it on another call though.
the extra counterspell has won me a lot of test games, and has never disappointed me.

what i would like from you, is how can we incorporate the new sliverland(mutavault?) into our 3 color manabase

oyea, the plated are stellar, as volt pointed out, always run them if your not strapped for slots

[raharu]

@ Mutavault: -1 'Goyf, -1 Plated Sliver, -1 land of choice
+3 Mutavault?? Maybe some other configuration would be better, but this is what jumps out at me.

[Volt]

.

[DutchMojo]

well, i am going to test it, it looks like a power full card. remember it has a base of 2/2, it get pretty nuts with only 2 other slivers.
But i dont think i would cut plated, maybe the basics if the meta allows it.

[Volt]

.

[raharu]

Well, if you're going to run Mutavault, I think you pretty much have to run Aether Vial as well. Too many demands on your mana otherwise.

Adding Mutavault and AEther Vial very well could mean cutting the Plated Slivers from the deck, though.

[Volt]

.

[JDunkin00]

Adding Mutavault and AEther Vial very well could mean cutting the Plated Slivers from the deck, though.

Believe it or not plated is a very strong card for slivers aloowing them to survive early combat till they go big with reinforcements. Aethervial I like it stays at 2 and adds more tricks. look for mutavault to be more of an anti sliver card cause we don't have much room for colorless lands. Also I like the random counterspell it give omage to older counterslivers and more synergistic with the deck.

[Volt]

.

[Jaiminho]

Do you think only 5 cards that require black (2 main, 3 SB), not including Hibernation Sliver as it comes down through Vial, are enough to justify playing a Basic Swamp?

[Volt]

.

[raharu]

I pesume that green was ditched MD for more control (CounterTop, 4 Daze, 4 FoW, 2 Vindicate). Have you missed the plated slivers and would Thoughtseize be a viable card for this deck? Also, has Needle in the board been good of are there some cases where you would rather have Stifle? Maybe Extirpate would be a little faster and more versitile than Jailer (just guessing, I'm hoplessly biased towards Extirpate though)?

[Jaiminho]

Any life loss + Hibernation Sliver is a bad combination. Thoughtsize is basically a trade: one of your creatures later (you won't bounce and therefore it will die) for one card in opponent's hand now. It's not worth it.

Stifle > Needle only when fighting storm combo. Stifle does counter triggered abilities, but, other than storm, there's nothing worth countering.

Jailer stops dredge and flashback, but dies easily. Extirpate barely stops IGGy Pop, barely stops Ichorid, and so on. I think the worst graveyard hate card there is is Extirpate. It is uncounterable (except by Counterbalance), but does very few. No deck relies so heavily on a win condition through graveyard that Extirpate could do very a good job, except maybe for Cephalid Breakfast, but Jailer stops that also and you have lots of counters to fight against only 4 StP.

[Volt]

.

[Shtriga]

I've always had a love affair on the side with slivers. albeit more casually

Now I'm growing an interest in this archetype. but, and since I've never played with, or against it I have a question: how does it perform when compared with threshold lists? (which is the closest I can compare this to, or maybe fish). unlike thresh that can go the distance with one single tarmogoyf or mongooses, slivers need 2 to 3 creatures into play to make them scary as one single sliver isn't much of a threat. has this ever posed as a problem to you? especially when the threat density is rather low-ish

[raharu]

@ Volt: have you ever found matches where Hibernation Sliver caused any serious issues? Would -1 Daze, -1 Hibernation, +2 'Jitte help with that at all, or would you rather not use equipment/ have artifacts in the yard for 'Goyf?

[Volt]

.

[raharu]

I've always found the deck quite strong. It runs a control suite equivalent to thresh and has better creatures as a whole. With CounterTop, CounterSliver's threats stick around for quite a while, which means more here than it does for thresh because CounterSliver's threats have the all-mighty "Sliver Synergy".

EDIT: Yeah... Equip does target, after all.... I can't believe I forgot about Crystaline.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Volt, how important are those Vindicate slots? What are your thoughts on running more slivers in those slots?

[Volt]

.

[Shtriga]

toxin sliver :> (my inner Timmy loves the thing to bits, I'm sure it sucks here)

[xsockmonkeyx]

Winged Sliver ain't too shabby though. I was thinking Wing#3 and maybe a random Plated or Talon.

[Volt]

.

[xsockmonkeyx]

But you just took out the Ponders. If anything your ability to search has diminished so Wing #3 might not be such a bad idea after all.

[Volt]

.

[xsockmonkeyx]

After testing and tweaking Volt's list I came to this set up for the main:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 island
1 Plains

4 Aether Vial

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Magical Top

4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Crystal
4 Hibernation
4 Sinew
2 Plated
3 Winged

I think 17 is enough creatures to function properly and that 3 winged is still right. There were instances where searching for winged FTW came up short even with 3 so Im not sure I would run with just 2. They are pretty critical for any aggro match. The 2 Plated were mostly included to up the sliver density to something I felt was going to effectively utilize the sliver mechanic. Not drawing into enough slivers during the game sucks. The plated also helped out greatly in the Goblins testing, giving me more than 4 creatures that could block piledriver, and were never too weak (IMO) to see play here as Volt argued .

[Volt]

.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Out of curiosity, did you really start out by testing my list and then make these changes, or did you make the changes and then start testing?

I started with your list -2 Vindicate,+1 Winged, +1 Plated and worked the other plated in. I ended up cutting a Swamp for another Sea and dropping a fetch. 17 lands felt fine with the Aether Vials and a deck that curves out at 2. Ill watch it though.

BTW no one uses the phrase "out of curiousity" and means it. I see through your lies. :P


only 4 first-turn cantrips.

EDIT: Who does a turn 1 Brainstorm anyway? That's a terrible play.

[Volt]

.

[xsockmonkeyx]

IUnless you're desperate, like maybe you mulled to 6 and kept a 1-land hand with BS. It happens sometimes when you only have 17 lands in the deck.

If that's the case then I would Turn 1 play the land, turn 2 Draw THEN Brainstorm because it gives you a chance to see another card from your library. If you turn 1 brainstorm and miss then you're stuck for at least 2 turns.

Sorry, turn 1 Brainstorm is my pet peeve. It bothers me to no end to see people make that play.

[Volt]

.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Ok Daze is a good point. Maybe I overgeneralized.

Usually you will be more concerned with making that 2nd land drop than a 2 drop but I could see instances where you want to rush your 2 two drop into play (Counterbalance, Crystal Sliver).

[raharu]

I haven't tested it yet, but could Sidewinder Sliver see some play as a 2 or 3 of (personally, I'm going to try and fit in 4^_^)? It should do fairly well against agro and agro-control by A) increasing our threat density, and B) promoting and rewarding an agressive strategy where it generally wouldn't be. I don't know if Plated would be better (again, testing when my cards come in), but after I test I'll let you know the results.

[Volt]

.

[raharu]

Maybe so, but when on the offensive, Sidewinder Sliver is almost Sinew Sliver 5-8. Also, would you consider cutting a Hibernation Sliver under any circumstances?

[xsockmonkeyx]

would you consider cutting a Hibernation Sliver under any circumstances?

No.

[Volt]

.

[Nihil Credo]

I remember comparing and testing Sidewinder vs. Plating and finding Plated to be superior, but I can't remember if that was done before the appearance of Tarmogoyf. In light of that, Sidewinder gets a bonus because it's effectively another +1/+1 in combat against a fattie, getting the UWg version up to "12" pumpers.

[raharu]

I'm thinking of running a playset of each. I don't really know how I'm going to do it, but I think that I might settle on 6 between the two if I can't fit in the full 8.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I remember comparing and testing Sidewinder vs. Plating and finding Plated to be superior, but I can't remember if that was done before the appearance of Tarmogoyf.

Plated won. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5500&page=18#358)

And it won because of the presence of Tarmogoyf.

[Curby]

Took the UWb Countertop list to 2nd out of 20-ish folks tonight. I was playing Volt's list with:

-1 Swamp
-2 Vindicate
+1 Underground Sea
+2 Oblivion Ring (I don't own the expensive guy)

Side:
4 Planar Void (not a lot of people relying on the grave... i can probably cut these)
4 Engineered Plague (lots of tribal around here)
2 Oblivion Ring (for more removal as well as more 3-drops for countertop)
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ponder (This is what you get when you build the side 30 seconds before your first match)

I've never played Countertop before and it showed. I didn't make TOO many horrible mistakes but it definitely felt very awkward. I'm used to real cantrips, and while Top can act like one, it steals your draw step and can throw your tempo off.

Anyway, I think this deck could do quite well in a normal Legacy meta, but the guys here are a bit experimental, so the combo missed more often than it would normally. Thankfully, I never got more than one top or CB in a game. I might try going back to four color aggro: it's like the UWg lists but with a few more tricks, and can probably handle a combat-centric meta more handily. I had a lot of fun playing this version though. While I never got some crazy army with 4 Muscles/Sinews in play, I could still attack for 10 flying damage per turn using one of each Sliver. With the rest of the deck playing disruption and library manipulation, it's still a potent creature package. I might write up a more detailed thing tomorrow, but Morningtide approaches and it's late! =)

EDIT: Mmm, Banneret for my Merfolk and Negate for my CAMU (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7268). Commons for the win!

I try to not make a huge deal of these tourneys cause my meta is really casual, but you asked for it. :tongue: I'm starting to lose track of what exactly happened, but it was something like this:

Round 1 vs yet another Drain Life deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8319)

I don't really remember what happened, but I see neither Counterbalance nor Top in my games. My opponent's life goes 20>17>12>4>0 and 20>14>3>0 so I guess I ran him over. I never drop below 14 life.

1-0, 2-0

Round 2 vs Big Wurms

Ok, so it seems like a staple newbie deck, but it wasn't TOO bad. It used Mosswort Bridge, Belbe's Portal, and other tricks along with mana acceleration to power out Wurms. I get the Countertop combo in game 1 but it does surprisingly little against a deck where the business spells start at 5 mana. For the second game I go -3CB, -2 Top, -1 Swords, +4 Pithing Needle, +2 Oblivion Ring. Even with 4 "Muscles" the hive is fast enough to run him over before a Wurm ever enters play.

(Aside: I played against this with Death and Taxes, and he put a Concordant Crossroads into play. Let's just say that Mangara with haste against a deck with no removal, discard, or countermagic is just plain mean.)

2-0, 4-0

Round 3 vs rogue blue/white aggro-control wackiness

This guy built a fun deck just for the tourney. He kept a tight curve, which let Countertop run wild. In game 2 I made the mistake of getting baited into putting my Top on the library, which opened me up for a Disenchant on my Counterbalance. Unfortunately I didn't have a Daze or Force, but I pulled through in the end. Sideboard action was -1 Daze, -1 Brainstorm, +2 Oblivion Ring

3-0, 6-0

Round 4 vs the black deck I played in Round 2 last time (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8319)

I was seated in the second game due to the performance of my opponents, in spite of my perfect record thus far. Unless the first table tied, first place was out of reach. Having played this guy before, I knew what to expect. The first game, I Dazed a first turn Thoughtseize to protect a delicate hive, even though I had no Vial out so it cost me a turn of mana development. My gamble pays off as my hive pounces for 16 damage in two attacks, and a quick win with me at 18 from fetching. His density of 3-drops makes me take out a Daze and a Vial for 2 Oblivion Rings, but he Extirpates my Rings early. We trade damage and it goes to 11/8. He holds a Damnation in his hand but does the math and decides he can't win.

4-0, 8-0

Notes: Leading with Hibernation is sometimes better than Crystalline. More people play Sweepers and Edicts than Sudden Death! I wish we had a top 4 cut so first and second would be guaranteed to play each other, but it was still fun. This deck should be able to do quite well in a typical Legacy meta, but I think I'll revert to a more aggressive UWgb or UWg build to match my meta. Unlike with Death and Taxes, I found myself mulling a lot. However, some decks lend themselves to aggressive mulling, and it's not that painful when you take the stance of "well, I'll just expect to start half of my games with 5-6 cards in hand."

Interestingly enough, after the tourney I tested against and lost horribly to a mono-black control deck (jeez, these things are EVERYWHERE here). Phyrexian Arenas were difficult to counter, Engineered Plague out of the side was painful, his Pro-white creatures could not be removed by Ring/Swords and could only be blocked by Hibernation (and Winged, but it wasn't reliable as a 2-of), and his Edict-heavy removal meant losses despite my Crystallines and Hibernations. I remember resolving Countertop but it didn't seem to help much. A more seasoned pilot would have probably done a lot better, and I guess Countersliver is not developed with a deck like this in mind, but man did it hurt. (Oh, Vindicate would have definitely helped by killing off his Cabal Coffers and thus hamstringing his mana supply, but I don't own em.)

[xsockmonkeyx]

1 Ponder (This is what you get when you build the side 30 seconds before your first match)

You should have went with 1x Eternal Dragon. It puts up results :laugh:


I might write up a more detailed thing tomorrow, but Morningtide approaches and it's late! =)

Please do. I would read it.

[Volt]

.

[Humphrey]

This List works for me

// Lands
1 [PT] Island (4)
1 [6E] Plains (1)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
4 [A] Tropical Island

// Creatures
3 [TE] Winged Sliver
4 [TE] Muscle Sliver
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [PLC] Sinew Sliver

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Serenity
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage

[Shtriga]

has 16 lands ever been too short for you? esp since you dont have a lot of cantrips

[Volt]

.

[Humphrey]

I never got Problems with 16 lands, the curve ends at 2 :D

[raharu]

I would sugest something like this:

-1 crystalline +1 forest
You only needone on the field. Any more are redundant

-1 Counterbalance +1 Sensei’s Divining Top
Top digs into Counterbalance. Also, with 16/ 17 lands, you want to be able to grab at your land drops on a consistant basis, which Brainstorm does not help with at all.

If you’re really trying for the aggressive route, then this as well:

-4 Tarmogoyf +4 Sidewinder Sliver
Simply because 'Goyf has no synergy with the rest of your creaturebase. Yes, the ability to drop a 'Goyf and eat face is nice, but when your board looks like this:

1 Crystalline Sliver
1 Muscle Sliver
1 Sinew Sliver

What would you rather topdeck: a 'Goyf, or a Sidewinder?

But, if you just included 'Goyf because because, and your deck actually has a more controling/ slower playstyle (but it really doesn't show from the list), then swap the 'Goyfs with 4x Plated Sliver, simply because it's better than Sidewinder at everything but raw agression.

[Jaiminho]

I never got Problems with 16 lands, the curve ends at 2 :D
But it begins at 1.

I've always used 17 on my meathooks and thresh decks and I'm sticking with that. I always (almost always, I mean... nothing is perfect) have the amount of mana I want on the table. I use 7 cantrips on this deck.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Yes, the ability to drop a 'Goyf and eat face is nice, but when your board looks like this:

1 Crystalline Sliver
1 Muscle Sliver
1 Sinew Sliver

What would you rather topdeck: a 'Goyf, or a Sidewinder?Conversely, what if you had nothing. I'm not picking a side, but Tarmogoyf does allow you to win without over extending.

[Shtriga]

Conversely, what if you had nothing. I'm not picking a side, but Tarmogoyf does allow you to win without over extending.

I brought this up some pages back. it's still a concern for me that slivers have to overextend for them to become real threats, whereas a goyf would be huge by himself.

still, let's stop dumping goyf in every single deck :P

[raharu]

Conversely, what if you had nothing. I'm not picking a side, but Tarmogoyf does allow you to win without over extending.

I won't hesitate to conceede that, but with 4x Force of Will, 4x Daze, and the CounterTop engine, you can afford to play out your threats because you have countermagic for sweepers and Crystalline/ CounterTop to protect from spot removal. Thresh wins without overextending. CounterSliver wins without overextending from your protection (Volt, right me if I'm wrong), so you can, and generally would want, to play out 3-4 threats.

[Humphrey]

I would never cut a Crystalline, its the best Sliver of all, without it on the table u only have poor bears.

Onedrop Sliver i dont need. Im goin to play Vial or Top
3 Balance 2 Top is better because u cant pitch Top and u dont want more than one anyway

Well Goyf is the best midgame creature u can draw


Tarmogoyf does allow you to win without over extending.
or after Sweep

and finally: if u cant beat it, get it ;)

[Volt]

.

[raharu]

I would never cut a Crystalline, it's the best Sliver of all, without it on the table you only have poor bears.

True, but you only want one.


Onedrop Sliver i dont need. I'm going to play Vial or Top

What happens if you don't have either, seeing as you only run 4 Vial and 2 Top? First turn Branistorm in a 16 land deck (which could be the worst turn one play ever for a land-light/ disadvantageouse hand)? Would this convince you to switch the CounterTop engine's numbers?


3 Balance 2 Top is better because u cant pitch Top and you dont want more than one anyway

With 2 SDT, you are not gaurenteed to draw into it. I sugested switching the CounterTop engine numbers because Top digs into Counterbalance and isn't dead without CB. CB is dead witout SDT, so why run 3x of a card that's dead by itself? I personally wouldn't pitch Counterbalance anyways. The draw of the CounterTop engine is protecting from spot removal (in addition to Crystalline Sliver) without expending your hard counters, which are then saved for nailing board sweep effects and whatnot.


Stuff about 'Goyf

Yes, yes, all true, but the hardcounters should be for Sweepers, and at any rate, you should add the third Counterbalance/ Sensei's Divining Top.

EDIT: yeah, you're right Volt. You kinda ninja'd me on that post.

[Volt]

.

[Humphrey]

Well almost every spell cost 2, so Top is not that much needed for running Counterbalance. Manabase is low also.
And i would pitch a Balance over a Sliver

[Jaiminho]

Top isn't only for toying with Counterbalance. It gives you the advantage of choice on what you are drawing. You can, then, use shufflers with to avoid losing numerous turns due to bad draws.

Depending on the match, I'd rather pitch a sliver than CB to FOW. CB leads to card advantage, while the best my slivers could give are small virtual card advantage (crystalline and harmonic) and blow damage. Also depends on the way the game is heading, but whatever.

[raharu]

I've done some playtesting, and I've come to the following conclusion:

Sidewinder Sliver is better that Plated Sliver in a metagame devoid of Pyroclasm/ damaged based sweepers.

I kept eating it to Pyroclasm against rw thresh all day today. After I pulled out the Sidewinders and threw the Plated back in, they were no problem (not thresh, the Pyroclasms). I keep getting permission-light draws, but that's more likely than not because of the fact that I don't have SDT right now (I my friend playtest them, and he decided to buy them from me :( and then I had to get beat down by his thresh with MY Tops in it...), which means that I had no control of my draws outside of 4x Ponder, and no Counterbalance.

[Shtriga]

red/white thresh? I've never seen that deck. what does it look like?

[AngryTroll]

The resistance to Pyroclasm and Massacre are the reasons Plated Sliver are run. Having +0/+1 is almost as good as flanking on the offense, but as resistance to Flamebreak, Pyroclasm, Massacre, and everything else, Plated wins, hands down. That's why Plated has been in the list over Sidewinder from the beginning.

The real question is why is Plated being run at all?

Whatever list you have Palted Sliver in, I would recommend -4 Plated, +4 Hibernation Sliver.
Hibernation Sliver is as good as Crystalline, and often better. I believe that the UWB list is strictly better than the UWG list. If you really want Muscles, and don't see many Wastelands, than the UWBG list is probably better than the UGW list.

See Volt's opening post; the UWB list with CounterTop mainboard seems to be the best build of the deck so far. You can cram Plated into that list in place of Counterbalance if your meta is some weird Goblin-only group, but against almost every other matchup, Counterbalance is just better. Aether Vial and CounterTop in the same deck give Thresh fits; either one is a real problem for Thresh. Hibernation Sliver is a house against Landstill, Goyfs, and everything else.

[Jaiminho]

I believe that the UWB list is strictly better than the UWG list.
I think that way too. Once I started playtesting UWb on MWS, I could never go back to UWg. Having to choose between UWg Meathooks and NQG/w, I'll most surely choose NQG/w, which is not true for UWb. Counterbalance in UWb CounterTopSliver > Counterbalance in NQG/w.

[raharu]

I've repeatedly found myself in the akward position topdecking at povitol points of the game. The problem isn't that I don't have any cards in hand, but more so that I'm holding redundant Crystallines and Winged, but I don't have any permission/ removal, and my board is chock-full of voulnerable slivers. I've been thinking that since we can't run Mask of Memory (damn you Crystalline!!!), maybe we could have Pulse of the Grid as a two of? I haven't tested it yet, but next time I order cards I'm getting a few (three?). Any thoughts? I believe that recursive card draw would help this problem a great deal, and it gets props because it's an instant and it's also 3cc. For reference, here's my list. It's UW right now, but that may change soon (I have 3 Hibernation Slivers, I simply wanted to test this list first, and the stable manabase is nice against the random "color screw is win condition" decks running around here).

Slivers: 16
Plated Sliver x4
Sinew Sliver x4
Tallon Sliver x2
Winged Sliver x2
Crystalline Sliver x4

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Permission: 11
Daze x4
Counterspell x3
Force of Will x4

Cantrip: 9
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Portent x1 (Ponder and Portent are going to be CounterTop after I get 2 more tops ): I'm not going to lend cards anymore...)


Mana: 20
AEther Vial x4
Flooded Strand x4
Polluted Delta x3
Tundra x4
Island x3
Plains x2

[xsockmonkeyx]

Rarahu, since you are only running 2 colors you might be able to fit Wasteland in here. I you choose to go that route then Stifle's stock rises considerably.

[raharu]

Rarahu, since you are only running 2 colors you might be able to fit Wasteland in here. I you choose to go that route then Stifle's stock rises considerably.

In all verity, I'm going to add 4x Mutavault after Morningtide becomes legal (flying 3/3 lands with shroud are sexy). I'll have to tweak the manabase and see what works, but I might end up cutting the Counterspells and maybe a land. Cut a plains? Or maybe move Tallon to the side? I also want the afore mentioned Pulse of the Grid, at least as a 2 of (EoT card filter/ draw makes me happy). I need to add more slivers that shore up my board position. Any sugestions? Or do you think that I won't need to after I get CounterTop (not lending cards EVER AGAIN!!)? Maybe the 5th Plated and Crystalline? :laugh:

EDIT: Duh, Hibernation Sliver. Unfortunately I'm not too keen on splashing black right now. I really want to test this UW thingy some more first.

[Volt]

.

[raharu]

@ testing: will do. I must ask though, what is your oppinion of Mutavault in the UW list? Is it worth it? Would you rather have Wasteland and Stifle? Do you think that you would fin room for both in the list? Could Crucible of Worlds be our answer to big fattie 'Goyfs (I doubt it, but I have a few on hand, so of course I'm going to test it. Simply wondering what your oppinion was)? I'm thinking that a light light light splash of black exclusively for Hibernation Sliver would be feaseable, giving 2 different methods for produding recuring chumps? In all honesty, I'm considering an idea from a friend's agro slurvial list. The thought? Running Oversold Cemetry as a 3-4 of. This would make Cabal Therapy better (possible as a board card), and facilitate more "ample" blocking, if you will (I hesitate to block a decent portion of the time because I don't like loosing important pieces of The Hive). Questions? Comments?

[Humphrey]

Maybe you just run 1 Usea and fetch it. Otherwise u use Vial to put hibernation into play

[Jaiminho]

In all honesty, I'm considering an idea from a friend's agro slurvial list. The thought? Running Oversold Cemetry as a 3-4 of. This would make Cabal Therapy better (possible as a board card), and facilitate more "ample" blocking, if you will (I hesitate to block a decent portion of the time because I don't like loosing important pieces of The Hive). Questions? Comments?
Switching to a graveyard based build will make this deck more fragile, IMO. A big advantage this deck has over thresh is that it doesn't care about its graveyard. Just some thoughts.

[raharu]

I was thinking of it more as a board card for agro matches/ other times where you may have "issues" with bigger creatures/ copious removal. It's also a form of CA, if you think about it.

[Curby]

Could Extirpate be worth consideration either in the main or the side? It seems like dangerous matches for us, such as Landstill or anything with recursion or sweepers might benefit from this if we can counter something then Extirpate it. We can't really abuse it with recursion, and something tells me it's just another "Cool Thing," but it's such a mean cool thing! :cool:

[Volt]

.

[Finn]

Hey guys. I had intended to pursue this idea myself but I am caught up elsewhere. Here's the idea:

Has anyone tried using Mirror Entity? If I am understanding things right, the */* is set using this ability with the +1/+1 of Muscle and Sinew getting tacked on top of it. I fooled around with it long enough to get some nice big Slivers, but I just don't know if the deck needs it in our metagame. That is where Volt, Pinder, Sockmonkey, etc come in.

EDIT: I just searched for it and found that I am somewhat late to the ballgame on this topic. Carry on boys.

[kicks_422]

So what version of MeatHooks has the best MU against Landstill? Is it even possible to actually HAVE a decent MU against Landstill with this deck? Or are 4 Deeds + 2-4 EE's + tons of CA and countermagic too much?

[Volt]

.

[AngryTroll]

The UWb CounterTop version has the best chance against Landstill. It's still tough, but not hopeless.... It's definitely a matchup you want to avoid, but you have a better chance with CounterTop than you do without it.

Plus 4 Hibernation Sliver, another strong card against them. The loss of life is not as painful as many matchups, and the ability to overextend a little bit into Wraths and Deeds to push the clock gives you a lot more options (and gives them a lot less time) than if you have Plated Slivers. Meathooks has Muscle Sliver to push the clock, but that encourages overextending into their game plan.

[kicks_422]

I was intrigued with a UW version with mana denial fit in... I came up with this, and it's been doing fine so far...

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Wasteland

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Mirror Entity
2 Winged Sliver

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

I used to not have Vials in there, since they weren't as effective/needed in 3 color versions. I used to have the 4th Island, 4th Daze, and 2 Oblivion Rings in its place. I'll try to see if the deck works better with Vial.

[Derklord]

kicks, have you ever played with Hibernation Slivers? This guy ist a fucking powerhouse. IMO, Hibernation Sliver is better then Cristalline nowadays; he crushes aggro and protects yout guys from both spot- and mass removal.
I sometimes miss the raw power of the 8 muscles, but Hibernation easily makes up for that.

[raharu]

It's a bit hard to run a card not in your colors. At any rate, maybe -2 Morror entity, +2 Hibernation and a few deltas and one basic swamp would be alright. I do question the point of running only 2, and the Entity is a good creature simply because it makes all of your threats bigger (ona side note, I wouldn't try to cut vial with Mirror Entity in the deck because you have a good place to dump your mana, and you get pressed for mana without vial when you want to trigget Entity)

[kicks_422]

I know how Hibernation works, I'm not new to the deck. I just want to go the mana denial route with 4 Wastelands and 4 Stifles. It's going to be pretty hard to run 3 colors on 17-18 lands with 4 Wastelands, especially when I have cards that cost UW, UU, and UB.

EDIT: If I ramp up the Vial to 3, it makes bad, since I can't drop all the other Slivers. It was good when all the dudes cost 2 since you don't have to worry about ramping it up. I might take it out altogether.

[xsockmonkeyx]

kicks, have you ever played with Hibernation Slivers?

kicks knows his slivers, hell he named the deck.

Im interested to see your results with Wasteland + Stifle. I was going to try the U/W deck with mana denial out but never got around to it.

[kicks_422]

My findings so far with the UW mana denial build above:

1. Vial was no good. The uncounterability was great, but everything was easy to cast anyway because of the 2-color manabase. Also, having 10 2cc's and 4 cc's didn't mesh well. Which leads me to...

2. When I took out Vials, I put back in the cards I originally took out for it (4th Island, 4th Daze, 2 Oblivion Rings). 6 3cc cards really helped out a lot with CB, and Oblivion Rings were pretty darn sexy. And 4 of those 3cc cards are...

2. I guess this is the home that Mirror Entity was looking for. At first I just tried them because there's no other blue/white Sliver really standing out to replace Hibernation Sliver from the UWB version, but it speeds up the kill noticeably, capitalizing on the tempo gained from Waste/Stifle. Maybe if another good 2cc blue/white sliver is printed Mirror Entity would be cut and Vials shoved back in, but as of now I'm happy without Vials and with Entity.

4. And yeah, Stifle + Wasteland is cool. It's at least another way to buy some turns against Landstill (which Entity capitalizes on) and gives a huge tempo boost against low land count decks. Also gives another answer to combo in Stifle, which, along with FoW, Daze, and CB+Top, makes the combo MU pretty darn good.

5. To shore up aggro MU's (mainly Goblins), I guess I'll be running 4 Talon Slivers in the SB, to replace CB's. Don't know what else to do with that. 4 Crypts as well, since I think those are mandatory... Then maybe 4 Disenchants and 3 Hydroblasts to finish the SB.

[raharu]

@ Disenchant: have you thought of usine Aura of Silence? I know it's WW, but being able to dodge an opponent's Counterbalances/ make it hard on stax/ other things it does (maybe nothing outside that) may be worth it.

[kicks_422]

The WW isn't much of a problem, it's the fact that most of the things I want to blow up with Disenchant are those that come out early. That makes Disenchant much better at 2cc since most of the time, I'll be sacrificing Aura right away. And I don't side in Disenchants against CB (or decks packing CB, in entirety), I just try to out-CB them, if that makes any sense.

EDIT: Upon further testing, Vial is indeed required in the deck. However, since Mirror Entity fucks up Vial and there's no other available good 2cc Sliver in UW colors, this UW mana-denial project is scrapped. UBW CB-Top is just plain better.

[raharu]

Why does Mirror Entity throw off AEther Vial? They have heaping gobs of synergy, with the Entity being incredibly mana hunger, and Vial freeing up said mana, why is it that this interaction prompted you to scrap the idea?? I'm startled.

On a side note, Stifles are cheap, as are Wastelands, so this is going on my to do list.


EDIT: you don't really have to ramp up vial to play Mirror Entity...

[kicks_422]

Why does Mirror Entity throw off AEther Vial? They have heaping gobs of synergy, with the Entity being incredibly mana hunger, and Vial freeing up said mana, why is it that this interaction prompted you to scrap the idea??

you don't really have to ramp up vial to play Mirror Entity...

Those two statements contradict each other. If I ramp up Vial to 3, I get to free up my lands (all 3 of them, whoop-de-doo) to pump into Entity, but that cuts off that Vial from playing anything else aside from additional Mirror Entities, which is pretty lame. If I don't ramp up Vial to 3, then I'm leaving myself open if I pass with only 1-2 lands untapped, or force myself to wait which kind of goes against the whole point of mana-denial because I'm giving them time to recover.

[Pinder]

Those two statements contradict each other. If I ramp up Vial to 3, I get to free up my lands (all 3 of them, whoop-de-doo) to pump into Entity, but that cuts off that Vial from playing anything else aside from additional Mirror Entities, which is pretty lame. If I don't ramp up Vial to 3, then I'm leaving myself open if I pass with only 1-2 lands untapped, or force myself to wait which kind of goes against the whole point of mana-denial because I'm giving them time to recover.

I think his argument was that you play the Mirror Entity, and by Vialing in everything else (leaving Vial at 2) you free up the mana you need to use the Entity Effectively.

Doesn't really mean it's a good argument, but I figured I would clarify.

[BoomChild]

Allrighty....

Since this thread has seemed to die out as of the last few weeks I decided it was time to dust off some slivers and take the deck from a different vantage point. Counterbalance is king pretty much right now. If you don't have a way to deal with that enchantment or a workaround for it, it's not really worth playing.

The lists most people have been running are 3c Countersliver based decks that most of the time just fall in the face of the hate. Not quite as fast as agro yet not quite as controlling as Thresh. I decided to play with my slivers as a more aggresive build. Here is my list:

Creatures:
4x Crystalline Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
2x Winged Sliver
2x Harmonic Sliver
1x Talon Sliver
1x Frenetic Sliver

Spells:
4x Aether Vial
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Eladamri's Call
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshears

Lands:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
1x Platuea
1x Taiga
4x Mutavault

SB:
Meh....

The advantage that I found was that not having to use cards and resources on counter magic allowed me to focus on the board a lot more than I could have in previous builds of the deck. Mutavault is INSANE in this deck when you get them online turn 3-4. It's a land drop and a 2/2 Sliver when active.

Splashing red allows for a controversial Frenetic Sliver as a one of to search for with the Call's. It is the theory that in the face of Wrath/EE/Damnation/Deed I would rather have a 50% chance of my army dieing than a 100%. Most matchups you never draw/play that guy because you just don't need it, but when you need him--boy is he good.

More importantly than frenetic sliver, red allows me to play lightning bolt which I found increasingly useful as the days go on. He's as good as a STP against most creatures that aren't named Tarmogoyf and he does go to the dome. I won't bore you with why bolt is a good card.

I am going to keep testing this deck out but I wanted to slightly re-invigorate the chat here with some new ideas. Lets keep this thread alive and not all die and fade away into the Thresh is god there's nothing else mentality.

BoomChild

[kicks_422]

Let's see...

You have 14 color-producing lands in a 4 color deck. Even with Vials, that's bad. 4 Eladamri's Call is overkill, because you have both BStorm and Ponder anyway. And why Frenetic over Hibernation?

The red splash hasn't been discussed at all though. Maybe there's something there that's waiting to be found, I don't know.

[BoomChild]

Let's see...

You have 14 color-producing lands in a 4 color deck. Even with Vials, that's bad. 4 Eladamri's Call is overkill, because you have both BStorm and Ponder anyway. And why Frenetic over Hibernation?

The red splash hasn't been discussed at all though. Maybe there's something there that's waiting to be found, I don't know.

It is true that there are 14 lands that make color'd mana in the deck, but one of the strength's of the deck is that it is usually only using it's mana to cast cantrips and tutors. Vial is the #1 way I have been using to get the dudes into play. I have tested the thresh matchup and it shouldn't be a huge surprise but a vial on turn one is equal to about a 60% match win, again in testing.

The bigger issue I believe than only having 14 Color'd sources is that the ratio of fetches to non is 4-3, which means eventually I have nothing to fetch. I thought that was going to be a big problem in the small tournaments I have played in and it wasn't that bad. There was only one insance that I lacked a fetch to find blue mana for cantrips, but I had vial on turn 1 off a Mutavault and was able to cast and vial the slivers into play and won.

As for the frenetic over hibernation route, I strongly believe that with my meta shifting more and more to a dominant thresh, secondary thresh hate, and goblins back on the rise, the red route is more effective. I want to lay out the thought process that I went through to come to my conclusions.

Red:
Frenetic Sliver
- Does not cost 2 life to return
- Slivers have 50% to live and come back with "Haste"
- Allows for "Overextension" into EE/Wrath/Deed effects and still come out with dudes.
- Opens up access to Bolt and other strong red threats
- Allows some Reach for the deck against strong agro
- Introduces 8 turn one effects to kill Lackeys and annoying stuff.

Black:
Hibernation Sliver
- Is a guarenteed sliver back in hand
- Does cost 2 life
- Life is beginning to matter a lot more now than ever (IMHO)
- Gives access to Discard/Removal
- Stronger in a Meta with more combo orientated decks
- Potential to also play Necrotic Sliver as a pseudo "Vindicate"

It may just be that Meathooks will become a completely Meta-Dependent deck choice with multiple versions based upon what you will see in your area. I believe this is one of the strengths of the deck as well as a liability for some. If one is incapable of adjusting to their own meta and net-decks this thing, they are going to come out with very poor results because of a lack of foresight.

At least for me, Red is a darn good choice right now and it's a little refreshing not playing the counter magic and focusing more on getting the job done with burn and big dudes. If you have any concerns please load this list into apprentice or MWS and give it a whirl and check out how effective the vial + Tutors can be.

BoomChild

ps... I believe 4 Call is the complete correct number for this decklist. The support spells in Ponder/BStorm/Call are all set up to support the Vial. 80% of the time I was tutoring for Harmonic or Muscle effects on opponent's EoT to clear out something prohibitive. Please proxy this list up and test it out some before you respond. I am always willing to defend my position, but not against theory. Use facts.

[Jaiminho]

Since I play against Stax decks all the time, I really hate mana bases without enough basic lands to ensure its stability throughout mid and late game. Usually, it goes as the 2 main colors having basics and the splashes relying on whatever duals I have access to. But there is no space in your mana base to add those things. Also, you said you didn't have an easy access to blue mana... that is for having half of your lands being able to call themselves islands. BTW, Mutavault owns... but I'm not sure if 4 is the right number. Testing UWb with 2 in so far (with 3 tops + 3 vials).

Also, losing the only Frenetic Sliver you got to its own ability is the worst thing that can happen when trying to escape from a sweeper. What do you do with the next sweeper?



Red:
Frenetic Sliver
1 - Does not cost 2 life to return
2 - Slivers have 50% to live and come back with "Haste"
3 - Allows for "Overextension" into EE/Wrath/Deed effects and still come out with dudes.
4 - Opens up access to Bolt and other strong red threats
5 - Allows some Reach for the deck against strong agro
6 - Introduces 8 turn one effects to kill Lackeys and annoying stuff.


About the above:
1 - But it comes out at least one turn later, in which you might take enough damage as you would with Hibernation.
2 - This is the main problem with Hibernation. Aether Vial helps, though.
3 - The more aggressively you rush against them, the quicker they must try to clean the table. But this is not the case, since you have to tutor for this sliver and then use a full 3 mana to play it. It is slower than Hibernation and does not give them less time to have access to sweepers, which is a comfort for them.
4 - Just make sure your mana base can support the rainbow.
5 - Read numba 4.
6 - Maindecking 8 is nice. I usually carry some BEB on my sideboard only for red annoying games.


EDIT: I didn't notice it was a full aggro deck. Reading feels good sometimes...

[BoomChild]

So far the only tournament testing I have done with this deck was playing it in an 8man with this meta.

Enchantress
Stifle/Naught
WW/Worship
Goblins
Black Thresh
Terrageddon
Slivers-Me
Red Thresh

I played the Enchantress Deck and won on the back of Harmonic Slivers, Beat the WW/Worship deck on the back of better beats, and split with the black thresh.

I'm very happy with the current testing and playing of the deck. The colors aren't usually an issue and I would love to sneak some more colored sources and will probably cut the vaults down to three for my next tourny. But in the end those guys just cut through the control matchups. Btw, my version of the deck doesn't counter anything as I have cut the counterspells completely.

[raharu]

A few points that should be outlined:

A) AgroSliver is ineffective without a superpowerful engine, generaly consisting of 4x Survival of the Fittest, 4x AEther Vial, and 4x Oversold Cemetry. Without a good engine (the proceeding engine is the strongest I've seen), agrosliver is just a shitty scrub deck. Engines give the deck versatility and they allow you to win the long game, as well as have the utility slivers to win quickly. Most of the time, ArgoSlivers are forced to make the trade of an instable manabase for the ability to use five colors so that they have access to what they need to be decent, opening up a vulnerability to Wastaland that hampers the deck.

B) agrosliver is not Meathooks. Meathooks, more apropriately known as "Counter-Sliver", is an agro-control deck based around slivers. I don't believe this is the apropriate thread for discusing sliver-based Agro decks.

[Volt]

.

[xsockmonkeyx]

The red splash hasn't been discussed at all though. Maybe there's something there that's waiting to be found, I don't know.

Red slivers, eh? I think Volt did some testing with red. I remember staring back at a swarm lead by Hunter Sliver, and I was not happy. Heart Sliver is ok I guess, but your dudes already get pseudo-haste anyway. Theres Blade Sliver for more beatdown but it kinda ruins Vial to pump it up to 3. Homing Sliver is interesting, kind of like an overcosted Survival with no fringe benefits to abuse (Genesis, Squee).

Mutavault is interesting but not in a 4 color deck.

[BoomChild]

Mutavault is interesting but not in a 4 color deck.

On the contrary, I think Mutavault is the most interesting in a 4c Deck :laugh:

[Jaiminho]

On the contrary, I think Mutavault is the most interesting in a 4c Deck :laugh:

Yeah. Nothing better than not being able to cast stuff!

[xsockmonkeyx]

On the contrary, I think Mutavault is the most interesting in a 4c Deck :laugh:

Because?

[BoomChild]

Because?

Because in the tournaments I have played in, it has never been a problem to have multiple Mutavault in play. The strength lies with the versatility of Vial. The need to recognize opening hand strength and where you want to take the game and reach maximum potential is the strength.

Vial allows the fudging of mana bases. The only thing I have been using my mana for is Portent, Bstorm, E.Call, Removal. The slivers find a way into play through the Vial. Mutavault is very exciting in this deck with a 2/2 sliver that's a land drop.

[Jaiminho]

Vial is the easiest play ever against decks without blue or deed. Against those, you better keep it protected, which you can't do.

Imagine you aren't able to land a Vial. Game over?

[raharu]

Vial is the easiest play ever against decks without blue or deed. Against those, you better keep it protected, which you can't do.

Imagine you aren't able to land a Vial. Game over?
Damn skippy. I've seen even compotent players playing all gold lands scoop after having first turn AEter Vial dazed/ Forced when playing agroslivers. You can't protect Vial, so you pretty much loose.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Because in the tournaments I have played in, it has never been a problem to have multiple Mutavault in play. The strength lies with the versatility of Vial. The need to recognize opening hand strength and where you want to take the game and reach maximum potential is the strength.

Vial allows the fudging of mana bases. The only thing I have been using my mana for is Portent, Bstorm, E.Call, Removal. The slivers find a way into play through the Vial. Mutavault is very exciting in this deck with a 2/2 sliver that's a land drop.

I dont see how any of this is different with less than 4 colors. Maybe you can get away with it easier because of Vial, but there is no way that a 4 color deck abuses Mutavault more than a 3 color deck.

[raharu]

Red slivers, eh? I think Volt did some testing with red. I remember staring back at a swarm lead by Hunter Sliver, and I was not happy.

If yu were playing agro, you were probably crying and throwing cards. I hate that beast. Being forced to block a 4/4 sliver with your Confidant/ Mage/ not 'Goyf creature is depressing. It's like more removal, especially with Talon. Maybe we need more testing...

[xsockmonkeyx]

If yu were playing agro, you were probably crying and throwing cards. I hate that beast.

I think I was playing aggro control something, I dont remember. But I would have punched Volt through MWS if I could. :P

[Pinder]

If yu were playing agro, you were probably crying and throwing cards. I hate that beast. Being forced to block a 4/4 sliver with your Confidant/ Mage/ not 'Goyf creature is depressing. It's like more removal, especially with Talon. Maybe we need more testing...

Hunter Sliver certainly is nuts, especially when combined with Heart Sliver so you can use dudes you drop as removal in the same turn.

I tried a 'Star-Spangled' (RWU) sliver build a long while back, but found that the addition of Hunter, Heart, and Blade sliver wasn't enough to mitigate the loss of Muscle sliver. However, now that we have Sinew, it might not be a bad idea to look into it again.

As far as I'm concerned, in a RWU version of slivers, these are absolutely necessary:

Heart Sliver
Hunter Sliver
Talon Sliver
Crystalline Sliver (duh)
Sinew Sliver (duh)
Winged Sliver (the evasion makes up for the lack of synergy with Hunter, and plus it lets you pick off what fliers they do have so your guys can get through)

And that's a fair amount of Slivers. The deck would more than likely be more Aggro than Aggro Control, and you'd have to decide whether the boost you get from haste or provoke is worth ditching black (specifically, Hibernation Sliver) and the increased vulnerability to mass removal. Although, by having :u::r: you get access to Frenetic Sliver (I believe someone mentioned this earlier), so you can statistically save about half your dudes. Still though, that doesn't really strike me as efficient. Also, :r::w: gives you Cautery, but again that's not really much consolation. I will comment, though, that Sidewinder + Hunter is all sorts of sexy, especially with Talon.

I imagine that any sort of :r::w::u: list would likely have CounterTop (and maybe Force or Daze) as it's control, then have Vial + Lots of slivers as beats/removal/more beats. It would also probably run Swords, because it has white in it.

Also, I've always wanted to fit Telekinetic Sliver into a deck. But it still probably doesn't fit in here.

edit -



I think I was playing aggro control something, I dont remember. But I would have punched Volt through MWS if I could. :P


Seriously. Most people think that the reason to splash red is Heart Sliver, but in actuality Hunter Sliver is the be-all end-all MVP for red Slivers. I'd cut Heart before I cut Hunter out of a red list.

[risethehandsofreason]

I have been playing Thresh at local tournaments for qiute a while now -first white splash, then red splash, both without counter-top. With poor turnout (~6 players per week) recently, our tournaments are rarely sanctioned, so we, the players, decided to experiment. I'm trying UWg slivers.

I've had good success with Back to Basics against a lot of the decks in my meta, and I will be incorporating that main-board, a la Mono Blue Control. I run primarily fetches and basics, with one Tropical and one Tundra for early game versatility, and I expect it to work well.

I also decided to try to use a draw engine that netted me cards, so I am going to try Rhystic Study (as bizarre as that sounds) in addition to the Ponder / Brainstorm, replace-a-card draw spells. In testing, it did well in conjunction with the threat of Daze. Again, this is in the spirit of experimentation. I may mess around with Accumulated Knowledge as well.

Any thoughts? This is my first post, so I will happily accept the criticism that I am due for being solely a forum voyeur for several years.

[kicks_422]

Well, if you're having no problems with running only 2 duals, then go right ahead. As for draw, assuming you have Vial, and if you're the only one that can abuse it in your meta, I guess you can try out Standstill as well.

[thefreakaccident]

I have been looking at scountersliver for some time, probably never going to get around to actually buying the crystallines, but whatever. I was wondering if you guys have considered virulent sliver...

He along with some evasive slivers (winged/shadow), plus some quick slivers could end a game very quickly, add in some free countermagic and some cantrips and I think it would be pretty solid.. here is the theoretical:

lands//17
3 flooded strand
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 windswept heath
2 island
1 plains
1 forest

creatures//20
4 muscle sliver
4 virulent sliver
4 sinew sliver
4 winged sliver
4 crystalline sliver

spells//23
4 force of will
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 stifle
4 swords to plowshares


I am not sure if this is anywhere near optimal, but it is interesting to think about....

The sideboard would probably be:
4 meddling mage
4 tormod's crypt
4 blue elemental blast
3 trygon predator

[Volt]

.

[Maverick676]

This list looks great, although why daze over counterspell?

[Jak]

Also, you made me look up Abolish. Shame on you. I suppose in the absence of Harmonic and Grip, though, it's not all bad. Is the ACC worth it to run it over say, Disenchant or Seal of Cleansing,though?

OMG I love Abolish. I play it in Rabid Wombat. I would say it is better than Disenchant just because it dodges CB. I do have some problems with it though. First off, it is double white. Looks like that could be hard to come by. My second nit-pick is that you will hardly use the alternate cost with 5 plains. So have you tried Dismantling Blow in its place? Same CMC, less white, and late game is powerful.

[Volt]

.

[godryk]

Well, we had another Countersliver Top 8 placement in Barcelona (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=217969&postcount=21).

Although the list may look a bit clunky I think that it's still solid and feeds some productive discussion.

The most interesting card I've seen in the list is Standstill. Vial+Mutavault can be enough to make a safe use of Standstill, and this is when, for the first time, Mutavault has started to interest me as possible choice for this deck.

Thoughts?

[Curby]

The most interesting card I've seen in the list is Standstill. Vial+Mutavault can be enough to make a safe use of Standstill, and this is when, for the first time, Mutavault has started to interest me as possible choice for this deck.
Thoughts?

My first thought is: where do you find room? The manabase is already stretched thin with 17-18 land supporting 3-4 colors. If you don't dig into that category, you're looking for 6-8 slots for the Standstill and Mutavault among the also-packed business side of the main deck. I suppose you could go down to 3-4 cantrips/tops, but what else?

[Mael]

Hi, I just looked into this topic and it gave me positive shivers.
Here's my version of the deck for the moment, it's based on the cards I own (I don't have FoW and only 2 or 3 original dual lands). I have always been a big fan of slivers and control/counter deck.

So, here's my list:

Dance of the Slivers 1.2

Creatures (20)
4xCrystalline Sliver
4xSinew sliver
4xMuscle sliver
4xPlated sliver
2xWinged sliver
2xHarmonic sliver

Spells (18)
4xBrainstorm
4xSwords to plowshares
3xPortent
3xDaze
2xMana leak
2xCounterspell


Artifacts (4)
4xAether Vial

Lands (19)
1xTropical Isaland
1xToundra
4xFlooded Strand
2xWindswept Heat
2xPolluted Delta
3xHallowed Fountain
1xGemstone mine
1xPlain
3xIsland
1xForest

Sideboard (10)
2xCounterspell
2xMana leak
1xDaze
1xPortent
1xWinged sliver
1xHarmonic sliver
2xEssence sliver

I know it's not optimal, but I don't own(and won't buy) other beta/alpha dual lands and FoW. The suggested sideboard is more a meli-melo of cards that I'm still testing in and out of the maindeck. Harmonic sliver is maindeck because my meta uses a lot of artifacts and enchantments.
I would love to hear the constructive comments of the ninja experts of the Meathook/Countersliver deck.
Is the deck viable without the FoW? Which cards should I take in or out to replace it?
About the lands, do you have some affordable suggestions? Because I sometime have mana problems and the lifeloss is troublesome (which is why the essence slivers are in the sideboard for red/burn decks)
I would also love to have 3 Winged slivers to be sure to obtain the 4-5 turn win. But I already have 61 cards (which is 1 to many) and I have no idea what to take out.

Hope to hear from you guys and I just want to congratulate all of you for this amazing and original deck idea!

[Pinder]

I would love to hear the constructive comments of the ninja experts of the Meathook/Countersliver deck.


First, thanks for the interest in the deck!

My first suggestion would be to turn those Portents into Ponders. Ponders aren't too expensive, and they're waaay better. Also, try desperately to get Force of Wills (once you have them, go -2 Counterspell, -2 Mana Leak, +4 Force). I realize they're expensive, but the deck really does play a whole lot better with them. If you want to fit in the third Winged Sliver, I would normally suggest cutting both of the Harmonics and adding a Winged (which would give you the 'Perfect 19' configuration that most of the UWg versions of the deck use), but if the Harmonics are good in your metagame, then by all means, run them. I would still suggest going up to 3 Winged, though, adding the third Winged in favor of the 4th Plated. I would rather have a 3/3 split of Plated/Winged than 4/2.

If you can get a hold of them, you might also consider fitting Counterbalance/Top in there somewhere. They're relatively cheap (Tops are next to nothing and I got my CBs for ~3 apiece). Not sure what you would cut for them, though.

Your mana base actually looks pretty decent. I would try and change those Hallowed Fountains into Tundras (obviously), and that Mine into a second Trop (possibly one of those Islands into a third Trop if you can get one, too). You have 8 maindeck fetches, though, so you shouldn't have too much trouble fixing your mana for the time being (especially since your only non-fetchable land is the gemstone mine).

Hope this helps.

[Artanis]

I won a few tournaments with my build of meathooks but it seems to run out of steam fairly easily. heres my list. any thoughts?

4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell

4 Crystalline
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
4 Plated
3 Winged

4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Island
1 Plains

Board:
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Stifle
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt

[Bryant Cook]

Why hasn't this deck adopted Ponder and Counter/Top?

[Pinder]

Why hasn't this deck adopted Ponder and Counter/Top?

It has. Most of the lists in this thread are pretty outdated compared to the secret tech in the Ninja team forums. You can be assured that the list I run has both.

[Jak]

I wouldn't say all need Counter Top because you can build the deck any way you want it to function. I personally like to play this on MWS.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Forest
4 Aether Vial

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystaline Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Swords
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

SB
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare / Some Trygon Predators (whatever I like more)
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needle

I play it now and then and always like the results. I think Hibernation is awersome, but I still like running all of the best Slivers (excluding him), Goyf, and Krosan Grip. I think Needle and Grip are enough to protect me from EE and Deed and hopefully I will have countermagic for Wrath.

[Pinder]

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystaline Sliver
3 Winged Sliver


This here? Proof that Tarmogoyf is the nuts. Seems like I'm not the only one who's tried this.

[Jak]

This here? Proof that Tarmogoyf is the nuts. Seems like I'm not the only one who's tried this.

Bigger than plated! I just didn'tlike Plated at all and vialing in a Goyf gives me a hard on.

[Bryant Cook]

Bigger than plated! I just didn'tlike Plated at all and vialing in a Goyf gives me a hard on.

Well, Pinder, could I have your latest list? The addition of 'Goyf looks promising.

[Pinder]

Well, Pinder, could I have your latest list? The addition of 'Goyf looks promising.

This is the list that Maverick676 and I were toying with last time we played Slivers at our local.

//Lands
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta/Windswept Heath (any combination)
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Island/Forest

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder/Daze
3 Aether Vial
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

We whined for a long time about how running a non-sliver creature would make it a lightning rod for removal, but in Goyf's case it's immune to just about everything except for Swords (and even if they Swords it, you gain a shit ton of life). Also, it's a cheap guy that fits right into your curve and can be huge on the table all by himself, especially after some sort of mass removal.

[Artanis]

i dont like the counter top in meathooks because it can only go for 0,1,2, and 5. in my meta 3 costers and stompy decks run rampant. you need to be able to counter that troll ascetic or aven mindcensor or that sword of fire and ice. granted that one and two are your best bets for counter top but a good legacy player can get arount c/t one and two.

[Pinder]

I personally like CB/Top in the deck, but if you don't, it's pretty easy to find stuff to replace it. To shift back to a more classic list, take the list above and go -3 CB, -3 Top, +4 Daze, +1 Ponder, +1 Aether Vial.

[Curby]

There are 3-drops we can play too, from O-Ring and Vindicate to Harmonic Sliver and Krosan Grip. I agree that you shouldn't blindly throw Countertop into any deck that runs blue, you have to manage the curve a bit. My meta is heavily aggro, so I run with 2 Tops main, and 3 CB/1 Top in the side. Between main and side I've got around 6 3-drops.

[Pinder]

There are 3-drops we can play too, from O-Ring and Vindicate to Harmonic Sliver and Krosan Grip.

It's true. I usually board at least 3 Grips, and O-Ring is pretty fantastic in nonblack lists because it essentially gives you Vindicate in one of your main colors.

[Artanis]

well i guess its something worth testing. i am just a big goyf hater cuz that critter if insane. two for a potential 8/9 is insane.

[Mael]

Thanks a lot to Pinder for the advices.
I will try to make some changes in the list.

[Mael]

Hi, after using the great tips from Pinder, here's my updated list.

Dance of the Slivers 1.3

Creatures (20)
4xCrystalline Sliver
4xSinew sliver
4xMuscle sliver
3xPlated sliver
3xWinged sliver
2xHarmonic sliver

Spells (20)
4xBrainstorm
4xSwords to plowshares
4xPonder
4xDaze
2xForce of Will (Thanks Ebay ! ;) )
2xCounterspell

Lands (20)
1xTropical Island
4xFlooded Strand
1xWindswept Heat
2xCity of Brass
1xGemstone mine
4xPlain
6xIsland
1xForest

Sideboard (10)
2xCounterspell
2xMana leak
1xPlated Sliver
1xHarmonic sliver
2xEssence sliver
2xWorship

Need to buy - trade :
Fetch lands / Dual lands
4xAether Vial

I hace commanded the Aether vials, but I really need better lands... I just don't have the money right now. But I think it still goes well, I may need to cut some spells (counterspell-ponders (or brainstorm?)-daze) to have a better overall hand. But I will do it once I get the Aether vials.

Advice and critics welcome, just don't forget I'm a budget-friendly player.

[squee, general nuisance]

I think that If you are running counterbalance then runas many search lands (bloodstaned mire...) and land grant to thin your deck as well as running to use land grant without green the duel lands so that you can thin the deck. making this a counter deck with slivers.:laugh:

As well counterbalance is ridiculisly good I would splash blue in a red deck wins for it (sarcasm) the only drawback is 2blue for a cost so it would make a heavy price on you budget to get the duel land...

[THEchubbymuffin]

Haven't there been many articles and math wizards that prove that fetchlands are pretty horrible at thinning your deck? Also playing land grant in a non Belcher deck seems bad. Making four of your lands counterable and revealing counters like daze and FoW in your hand seems like a stupid move.

[Smog]

Haven't there been many articles and math wizards that prove that fetchlands are pretty horrible at thinning your deck?

yes

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=3096

[Tosh]

The reason why fetchlands are played is not only because it thins the deck. A fetchland is played because:

Thinning: Even if it is only slight, there's no reason to not take advantage of it.
Shuffling: After a Brainstorm or Counterbalance or a bad top 3 (known via SDT).
Mana Fixing: Fetchlands in Legacy are basically a land where you can pick the 2 most relevant colors for it to produce. In a less than 5 color deck it is almost always better than a City of Brass (due to losing life only once).
Finding Basics: Dual lands are very important to Legacy as it provides the avenue in which a multi-colored deck can be successful; however, many decks exploit the dependance on non-basics so the possibility of finding a singleton basic land to prevent such exploitation is crucial.


I would recommend not running land grant for the aforementioned reasons (a counterable land).

[Smog]

I agree, I was only providing the aformentioned link.

However, thinning is still not a viable reason to run them. The rest of your statements yes, but thinning on its own is not worth the one life.

[kicks_422]

This deck will be popular again because of them shiny Crystallines. I think it has fallen to the wayside since Goyf was printed, but I think it's still a fine choice for Legacy.

[Jak]

This deck will be popular again because of them shiny Crystallines. I think it has fallen to the wayside since Goyf was printed, but I think it's still a fine choice for Legacy.

I think it needs to play Goyf. Being more aggressive would be nice. Play Force and Daze for tempo and beat down with Goyfs, and slivers. I would play CB/Top or Spell Snare in the Board, though, so the combo MU doesn't suffer.

[raharu]

But playing Tarmo weakens your main plan. It's like playing non-goblins in Goblns!. You weaken your main strategy in the hope that the sheer power of the card is going to win you games. You might as well play Threshold, as it's more or less a stronger deck with similar matchups.

Sidenote: I think that Countersliver would work well as a control agro deck, working something like the old Ubw countertop solution deck, but with more creatures. While I'm not entirely sure what the list would look like, I think that more control would be a stronger path for the deck.

[Jak]

But playing Tarmo weakens your main plan. It's like playing non-goblins in Goblns!. You weaken your main strategy in the hope that the sheer power of the card is going to win you games. You might as well play Threshold, as it's more or less a stronger deck with similar matchups.

Sidenote: I think that Countersliver would work well as a control agro deck, working something like the old Ubw countertop solution deck, but with more creatures. While I'm not entirely sure what the list would look like, I think that more control would be a stronger path for the deck.

Wrong. Goblins play only goblins because ringleader is the best card. Why run Plated Sliver that needs two other slivers out to even become a threat. Goyf is just better.

This is the list that I play with on MWS:

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Aether Vial

4 Goyf
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
4 Crystal
2 Winged

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 EE/Oblivion Ring

[kicks_422]

You weaken your main strategy in the hope that the sheer power of the card is going to win you games.

It will.

[Pinder]

Wrong. Goblins play only goblins because ringleader is the best card. Why run Plated Sliver that needs two other slivers out to even become a threat. Goyf is just better.


There actually quite a few reasons to run Plated over Goyf. The first and foremost is that Plated sliver brings more to the table than just a fat ass. It makes all of your other sliver's asses fatter, as well. Now, I'm well aware of the sheer ridiculous game-winning power of Goyf by the virtue that, well, it's Goyf, but in terms of synergy with the rest of the deck, it's lacking. That doesn't mean it won't randomly win you games, because let's face it,



It will.


But that doesn't change the fact that 1) Goyf gets nothing from your slivers, and 2) Goyf doesn't give your other slivers anything. The first isn't really relevant when it comes to Muscle/Sinew, as Goyf can more than handle the size department, but it does become relevant when you lose games because your Goyf doesn't get flying from Winged Sliver, or, on a lesser note, shroud from everyone's Crystalline friend. With regards to the second, having Goyf on the table with a few slivers when an opponent comes in with a horde of dudes, it can become very difficult to block. Sure you could lose a bunch of slivers, and you still have a Goyf and all, but he's only one dude against many and you can't even push through damage (no flying, remember?). Whereas if you had Plated, your guys' asses would have been bigger, and you would have been able to block and save more, if not all, of your dudes.

In short, Tarmogoyf is better than any single sliver on an empty or mostly empty board, but Plated serves the deck a lot better when you have other slivers in play, and also when your opponent has critters as well. Given that the idea behind the deck is to pump out a bunch of slivers, the merits of Plated are certainly there.

I'm not going to say definitively which one is better for the deck, as honestly I'm not sure (I've lost games with Goyf that Plated would have won, and vice versa), but I will say that Goyf is typically better against slower board control, as it allows you to put early pressure with a bunch of slivers while holding your Goyfs until they manage to sweep your team (you have countermagic, but it's bound to happen eventually if they're packing enough boom), then drop your superpowered lhurgoyf buddies on the table and continue beating face.

On the other hand, Plated is generally better against quicker Aggro decks, as it smooths out your curve a little bit better and makes all of your creatures more viable in combat due to increased size.

[Skeggi]

<snip>
2xForce of Will (Thanks Ebay ! ;) )
<snip>
Need to buy - trade :
Fetch lands / Dual lands
4xAether Vial
<snip>
Advice and critics welcome, just don't forget I'm a budget-friendly player.

Isn't FoW something you want 4-off? I understand you're a budget-friendly player, but I figured if you put fetch and duals in your need to get list; you're apparently happy with 2 FoW?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Sidenote: I think that Countersliver would work well as a control agro deck, working something like the old Ubw countertop solution deck, but with more creatures. While I'm not entirely sure what the list would look like, I think that more control would be a stronger path for the deck.

Slivers
4 Sinew
4 Crystal
4 Hibernation
3 Wing
1 Plated

Disrupt
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Plow

Wreck format
4 Aether Vial
4 Counterbalance
3 Top

Obvious
4 Brainstorm

Manas
4 Strand
4 Delta
4 Tundra
2 Sea
2 Island
1 Plains

[Volt]

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[xsockmonkeyx]

1 Plated is kind of weird. Perhaps you meant 1 Talon? Otherwise, yeah, that list looks real solid. It's only a couple cards off from the "recommended deck list" in the primer.

No, plated. Im thinking of dropping a Hibernation for another one. Ill try Talon too.

[Curby]

No, plated. Im thinking of dropping a Hibernation for another one. Ill try Talon too.

Wait, I thought Plated was just for Gobs. Are you in a Gob-heavy meta, or is there something I'm missing? Between Top, Brainstorm, and Vial, you've got a decent number of 1-drops already.

Perhaps -1 Plated -1 CounterBalance +2 Vindicate? Control decks like removal, and having some 3-drops is nice for CB, though 2/60 is pretty sparse.

[xsockmonkeyx]

He is not just for Gobs. He is for Pyroclasm and Plague too. Also, having other 1 drops is a non argument against Plated. You can drop it the same turn as any two drop as well. For what it's worth, Im now running 1 Plated and 1 Talon and letting them fight it out.

EDIT: Vindicate is a no-go (dont own em). Closest thing I have is Oblivion Ring. ALso Counterbalance #4 is non-negotiable IMO. Any less than 4 is wrong if you're going to run it.

[Curby]

He is not just for Gobs. He is for Pyroclasm and Plague too. Also, having other 1 drops is a non argument against Plated. You can drop it the same turn as any two drop as well. For what it's worth, Im now running 1 Plated and 1 Talon and letting them fight it out.

Yeah, but Isamaru is a lot more impressive on turn 1 than turn 4. In other words, you can play 1-drops in later turns, but you have to ask if you'd rather have a more costly card to make a bigger change in board position. I see that Plated does have its benefits against damage-based sweepers, which are a bigger problem if you aren't running Muscle as well.

Please let us know how Talon works out. I thought that with Hibernation, we effectively have First Strike-like capability anyway (along with even greater benefits) so that's an argument for Plated over Talon, but I'd prefer Muscle over either. =)


EDIT: Vindicate is a no-go (dont own em). Closest thing I have is Oblivion Ring. ALso Counterbalance #4 is non-negotiable IMO. Any less than 4 is wrong if you're going to run it.

Yeah, I don't have any either. I hope they drop a bit when they fall out of Extended this winter. I understand the desire to abuse Countertop as much as possible, but that also involves running a more diverse curve to fully abuse it (see TEC, which covers CMCs of 0 through 5). In that vein, I was searching for a few 3-drops to add to make it more effective. With Chalice and Countertop running around, we might see more 3- and 4-drops being played.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Yeah, but Isamaru is a lot more impressive on turn 1 than turn 4. In other words, you can play 1-drops in later turns, but you have to ask if you'd rather have a more costly card to make a bigger change in board position. I see that Plated does have its benefits against damage-based sweepers, which are a bigger problem if you aren't running Muscle as well.


I had this argument in mind with Plated v Talon, and I still think it's debatable as to which is stronger regardless of cc. That was what I meant anyway.


Please let us know how Talon works out. I thought that with Hibernation, we effectively have First Strike-like capability anyway (along with even greater benefits) so that's an argument for Plated over Talon, but I'd prefer Muscle over either. =)

Hibernation is great, but not in multiples, so Im trying to see if I can get away with 3. At least multiple Crystal saves you from Warren Weirding.

[Curby]

This will be slightly off-topic because I'm running a more aggro-oriented UWbg build with Muscles instead of Counterbalance, but I am running 2x Counterspells in your Plated/Talon slot right now. They give my control element a bit more power, as I'm already running 19 Slivers, but I'm wondering if Sower of Temptation or Vedalken Shackles would work in my critter-heavy meta.

Back to CounterTop: I'm wondering if this slot could be filled by Cunning Wish and a small wishboard. I'd add things like Diabolic Edict, Swords to Plowshares, and Extirpate. I know Wishes are normally frowned upon for the sake of consistency (and we run a really light manabase), but CounterTop really likes having 3-drops in the deck. And well, utility and stuff.

[Volt]

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[cartoonist]

Okay, I just found this thread, did a lotof reading, and thought I'd ask more about the mirror match.

Has anyone considered Wing Shards as a solution? It could be played a couple different ways - either hold back and let your opponent set themselves up for a devastating Shards, then overwhelming them, or just waiting for the right moment during the sliver war. I can really see Shards working well against decks like Thresh, too, as those decks tend to play enough spells to build up the storm count; it could be a quick and easy way to remove multiple pumped critters in one play.

[Jak]

Okay, I just found this thread, did a lotof reading, and thought I'd ask more about the mirror match.

Has anyone considered Wing Shards as a solution? It could be played a couple different ways - either hold back and let your opponent set themselves up for a devastating Shards, then overwhelming them, or just waiting for the right moment during the sliver war. I can really see Shards working well against decks like Thresh, too, as those decks tend to play enough spells to build up the storm count; it could be a quick and easy way to remove multiple pumped critters in one play.

I love Wing Shards but sadly it doesn't work as well as you think. A good Thresh or Meathooks player will never play spells during their first mainphase. They attack and then play their Ponder or whatever. Runed Halo could be an interesting inclusion, but the double white would be difficult.

[KillemallCFH]

I love Wing Shards but sadly it doesn't work as well as you think. A good Thresh or Meathooks player will never play spells during their first mainphase. They attack and then play their Ponder or whatever. Runed Halo could be an interesting inclusion, but the double white would be difficult.Well, if they're not expecting a Wing Shards, there is a good chance that they could play spell(s) during their first main phase. In the case of Meathooks, they might play a Pump Sliver before attacking, or in the case of Thresh, they might chain some cantrips to give 'Goose thresh. I'm pretty sure Wing Shards is too clunky/situational to be an effective solution, but it still can surprise an opponent and wipe out a few creatures.

[kicks_422]

I believe that the SB card of choice for the mirror would be Ensnare. I think it was mentioned here somewhere, or maybe in the old thread.

[Illissius]

Or if the cost isn't prohibitive, what about Cryptic Command?

[Pinder]

Or if the cost isn't prohibitive, what about Cryptic Command?

As far as the triple blue thing goes, that's not too bad (every land in the deck except for like 2 make blue mana), but the whole 'leaving 4 mana open' thing could possibly be a problem. The reason Ensnare is good is because it's free (we'd probably run Gush, too, if we could).

[raharu]

Yep, Ensnare is pretty dumb against agro in general. I remember building some kid a deck out of the jank he had laying around, and it was uw agro-control. Ensnare was sooooo retarded, it was the only reason that the deck could win games on a consistent basis.

[Braves]

3- Flooded Strand
3- Windswept Heath
3- tundra
3- trop
1- island
1- plains
1- forest
2- mutavault

3- Vial

4- Crys
4- muscle
4- sinew
3- winged
1- harmonic
2- plated


4- daze
4- force
3- stifle
3- ponder
4- brainstorm
4- swords

This is the list I am currently testing.

[Volt]

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[xsockmonkeyx]

3 Winged Sliver

<3

Plz to be explaining Opt and the removal of Countertop plz.

EDIT: Also, if EE and Deeds are killing you, then the 0 Pithing Needle in your SB is strange.

EDIT2: Hibernation #4 and Talon won.

EDIT3: Braves, your list needs 4 Vial. Especially with Mutavault throwing off your color production.

[Volt]

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[Sanguine Voyeur]

Why Opt over Portent? If you're playing it as an instant the delay of the cantrip shouldn't be a problem.

[Swing4Five]

Why Opt over Portent? If you're playing it as an instant the delay of the cantrip shouldn't be a problem.


I'm not feeding goyfs with sorceries (i.e. Ponder). You'll note there are no sorceries in the deck.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Disregard that. I could have sworn Portent was an instant.

[xsockmonkeyx]

EOT Portent would be AWESOME! :D

[Volt]

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[raharu]

Opt is there because I want a little more dig besides Brainstorm. It's an instant, which means 1) I can keep my mana open to give myself the option of casting Stifle, Counterspell, or Opt during my opponent's turn, and 2) I'm not feeding goyfs with sorceries (i.e. Ponder). You'll note there are no sorceries in the deck.

CounterTop is amazing... sometimes. However, I found I could almost never protect it from Deeds, Explosives, or Grips. Also, it rarely protected my slivers from anything other than Pyroclasm. CounterTop would win me some games against combo and Deadguy, neither of which were terrible matchups to begin with. Meanwhile, Thresh would still wreck me with Explosives (which seem to be ubiquitous now), and Control decks would simply relish the opportunity to gobble up even more permanents with their sweepers (which I can't stop). So, I decided to go back to old-school countermagic.

EDIT: I have never found Pithing Needle to be much of a solution against control decks. Even if you drop 2 Needles, one naming EE and the other naming Deed, they just Grip (they will always side in Grips) the one they need, and then wipe your board with it. My philosophy is to give them fewer targets.
I've always found Pithing Needle more useful against control not as a permanent solution, but a effective speedbump to but a cork in their ability to dicker with your board state. I'd have no fear of droping a Needle naming Deed and protecting it with countermagic for as long as I can.

Also, wtf no Thoughtseize? Wouldn't that help with the whole sweepers wrecking your day problem? And couldn't it also help the combo MU? The deck would look something like Hulk-era Fish, but with a playable threat base :tongue:

[Volt]

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[Paper Devil]

I read the whole thread and i think the UWgb-Build is underestimated. (No one talks about it :frown:)
I would never play without Muscle Sliver or Hibernation Sliver, they are both just too good. Let's look at my following build.

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Ponder

Cardchoices:
WTF? No AEther Vial? Yes, i dislike this card. It is a bad topdeck, in the midgame you run out of slivers (there is no Sliver Ringleader), it needs two turns to work, two or more of them in your opening hand is bad and it can be countered (Lands ftw!).
Other (more or less) uncommon choices:
I testet Harmonic Sliver for a long time and he always finds a target. (Chalice of the Void, Moat, Pernicious Deed, Ghostly Prison...) I don't play CounterTop, so Harmonic only affects my opponent.
The 1off Ponder seems to be random, but it is just my 5 Brainstorm.

What do you think about it?

[Volt]

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[Paper Devil]

You sound like me a year or two ago before I finally came around to The Way of the Aether Vial.

Aether Vial is especially important in the 4-color version for its color fixing. Also, with Hibernation Sliver, it is a common occurrence to be bouncing slivers back to your hand and then returning them to play with Aether Vial, so you never really "run out of slivers." Finally, I have found that it is often better to have 2 Aether Vials rather than just 1.


Interesting, one year ago I was ab big fan of AEther Vial. However, I testet the deck over and over again with and without AEther Vial and personally i think you don't need it.
I know, that you are THE expert in CounterSliver (I read the whole thread;)) and this is one of the few points, where we think different. Probably, we won't change our mind, just because both versions work quite good. But my version works better, hehehe :wink:
I play 3 lands and the 1-off Ponder instead of the Vials. They do nearly the same as the Vial (Mana fixing, you can play all slivers), but you don't get all the disadvantages of it. (I listed the most of them in my first post)


[...]You're right about the 4-color version not getting its due[...]
Probably, the people think, they'd get mana fixing problems every second game or something like that... i dont know it...

[xsockmonkeyx]

Interesting, one year ago I was ab big fan of AEther Vial. However, I testet the deck over and over again with and without AEther Vial and personally i think you don't need it.
I know, that you are THE expert in CounterSliver (I read the whole thread;)) and this is one of the few points, where we think different. Probably, we won't change our mind, just because both versions work quite good. But my version works better, hehehe :wink:
I play 3 lands and the 1-off Ponder instead of the Vials. They do nearly the same as the Vial (Mana fixing, you can play all slivers), but you don't get all the disadvantages of it. (I listed the most of them in my first post)

Probably, the people think, they'd get mana fixing problems every second game or something like that... i dont know it...

IMO Aether Vial is stronger here than it is in Vial Goblins. The only reason not to play it is if you expect to encounter a lot of landstill and rock, where you would be better served with more slivers and counterspells (and you shouldnt play it anyway). In a format where people make any excuse to throw Countertop into a deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25), and a curve which hovers around 2 for the most part, you would be crazy not to play it. Against Force of Will its a usually :1: : Hymn to Tourach.


I testet Harmonic Sliver for a long time and he always finds a target. (Chalice of the Void, Moat, Pernicious Deed, Ghostly Prison...) I don't play CounterTop, so Harmonic only affects my opponent.

Justifying a cards inclusion MD because you can find targets for it sounds poor. In the main deck, you should be including cards that you need, rather than those you can make use of. Cards that you look for opportunities to be useful are usually best coming out of the side.

[Paper Devil]

IMO Aether Vial is stronger here than it is in Vial Goblins.
Never!
Goblins have the way better mana curve. They have goblins with CC1 to CC5, so they can use the whole power of AEther Vial.
Slivers start and end at CC2 (sometimes they end at CC3, but for two or three cards, it's not worth)
Goblins play ~30 Goblins, Sliver play ~20 Sliver
Goblins have Goblin Ringleader
Goblins have Goblin Matrone

--> The Vial is waaaaay stronger in Vial Goblins.



The only reason not to play it is if you expect to encounter a lot of landstill and rock, where you would be better served with more slivers and counterspells (and you shouldnt play it anyway).
I already listet most of the negative aspects of the AEther Vial. Now it's your turn.


In a format where people make any excuse to throw Countertop into a deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25), and a curve which hovers around 2 for the most part, you would be crazy not to play it. Against Force of Will its a usually :1: : Hymn to Tourach.
Right, but this card is one of the reasons to play Harmonic Sliver. If your opponent finds a solution to the AEther Vial (he will), then you have lost. If you play Harmonic Sliver, then the Balance is dead forever.


Justifying a cards inclusion MD because you can find targets for it sounds poor. In the main deck, you should be including cards that you need, rather than those you can make use of. Cards that you look for opportunities to be useful are usually best coming out of the side.
I didn't say it clear enough. Harmonic destroy all cards, that would KILL you.
Hibernation Sliver makes him even better. (Another reason to play UWgb)