[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks) [Archive] - Page 4

Curby

07-08-2008, 03:24 AM

Well control decks love draw and tutors, e.g. FoF, Intuition, and the one I'm hoping to try out: Cunning Wish for silver bullets. Sometimes an Ensnare, Extirpate, Slaughter Pact, or Krosan Grip is what the doctor ordered, and you can Wish at their EoT for your bullet. Perhaps this goes in another thread, but when is Cunning Wish best used, and why is it never mentioned here? There are a lot of game swingers that I'm sure we've wished for at one time or another. Here are some more, not necessarily in order of power:

orim's chant, echoing truth, misdirection, stifle, swords to plowshares, slaughter pact, pulse of the fields, diabolic edict, <some counterspell: thwart?>

Please understand that the 4c build outperforms the Countertop build in my meta, so while I'm currently running 4c with Countertop in the side, I'm thinking of freeing up the Countertop slots for a small wishboard. By running more slivers but keeping the core of 8 counters, 8 cantrips, and 4 swords, my deck is low on free slots, and my random meta makes sideboarding for all cases very difficult. By running Vial I can more reliably have the open mana for the 3-drop Wish, and my other spells are free or 1-drops, so the manabase shouldn't be too overburdened.

The one thing that annoys me with 'hooks is that I find myself mulliganing a lot. Even with 18 land and 4 Vials, I can't ever seem to draw a usable hand, so I won't be very willing to drop that count. I'm currently using:

8 Fetch
4 Tundra
4 Trop/Sea
1 Island
1 Basic or Scrubland
4 Vial

4 Crystalline
3 Hibernation
8 Muscle
3 Winged

8 Cantrip
8 Counter
4 Swords to Plowshares

I might take out a Winged and two from the third group to add three Cunning Wishes. With Ensnare being one of the wishboard slots, the loss of Winged #3 shouldn't matter too much. I might take out a Swords for a Slaughter Pact/Swords (heh), and a counter for a Misdirection. But since I'm in a critter-heavy meta, I should probably keep 4 Swords main and Wish for Pact. Any thoughts?

Worship has been kicked around as a sideboard option since day 1. What other cards would you add/consider to make the deck more "controllish"?

Worship has two problems: a sweeper will likely sweep your dudes, and it costs 4 in a deck with 17-19 land and a ton of disruptable mana. Back when I started building 'hooks and didn't have the usual stuff to add, I tried some Worships. In the end I preferred Essence Sliver, but those have been dropped too.

Curby

07-19-2008, 05:11 AM

If 11 days since the last post and a 23-man tourney isn't enough to justify a double post, please merge this with the above.

Anyway, tourney report: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10332

Skeggi

07-19-2008, 05:20 AM

Being a Stax player, I advice all your Meathooks players NOT to play Aether Vial, otherwise you could pass my Chalice@2, and then I'd probably lose, which is something we don't want.

Nihil Credo

07-19-2008, 11:23 AM

Being a Stax player, I advice all your Meathooks players NOT to play Aether Vial, otherwise you could pass my Chalice@2, and then I'd probably lose, which is something we don't want.
Kidding, right? Tabernacles and Ghostly Prison are hell for Slivers. If I'm scared of anything in that's deck, it's postboard 3x Harmonic Slivers.

Hanni

07-19-2008, 12:03 PM

Paper Devil

07-19-2008, 01:46 PM

No Stifle and just one Hibernation Sliver? Stifle is amazing and Hibernation Sliver is the reason to splash black.

Volt

07-19-2008, 02:40 PM

Jak

07-19-2008, 02:58 PM

What is your SB? I really like the list, but I wonder how strong the combo MU is unless there is some help in the board.

Volt

07-19-2008, 03:17 PM

Hanni

07-19-2008, 03:17 PM

7 cantrips and 4 Vial? Yea, I cut a land. I used to run 18 lands and no Vial with earlier versions of 4c.

I'm not necessarily cutting Hibernation Sliver for Thoughtseize. I think you can play them alongside eachother. I definitely think the 2nd Hibernation needs to make it's way into my deck though...

-1 Harmonic Sliver
or
-1 Thoughtsize

+1 Hibernation Sliver

Jak

07-19-2008, 03:50 PM

I could list my current sideboard, but what's the point? It changes every week. If you're concerned about combo, you know what kind of stuff to put in the SB.

Well, I was wondering if you were playing stuff like Vindicate, Krosan Grip, or Harmonic. I can piece one together but I was really wondering on that.

Volt

07-19-2008, 03:54 PM

Jak

07-19-2008, 04:06 PM

Have you tried CB in the Side? I am starting to get really interested in this deck because of the tribal theme and all of the combat tricks.

Curby

07-20-2008, 01:55 PM

Have you tried CB in the Side? I am starting to get really interested in this deck because of the tribal theme and all of the combat tricks.

I used to have 2 Tops main, 1 Top 3 CB in the side. That was when my meta was all crap, and CB doesn't do anything against a Wurm deck with average CMC of 100. So then I took it out at the wrong time for the newly serious meta, and am once again thinking of adding it again. =P

In short, i think it's great as it turns the 4color build into the 3-color Countertop build for control MUs, but I haven't done it with much success yet.

Any more thoughts? (Volt, why did you move away from UWb Countertop hooks?)

xsockmonkeyx

07-20-2008, 07:12 PM

4c Vial CounterSliver

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Island

Creatures (17)
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
1 Hibernation Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial

That's what I'd run if I was playing Slivers. If I could find room in the deck somehow, I'd add the 2nd Hibernation Sliver.

This list is awful.

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 City of Brass
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Winged Sliver

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

This list is good. Although I still don't think 4 Winged is necessary. Are you going away from the wall strategy and trying to swing in for nominal damage early (making Wing better)? Also, Id much rather have Ponder on it's own than Top. Ponder is a better card on it's own (no Counterbalance) and a much much better 1st turn play, especially here as you'll be using all your mana from turn 2 on to drop/replay slivers. With so many creatures Id like to see 19 lands, purhaps the 3rd city.

Also, what's your opinion on Crypt v Planar Void? I think Planar Void is a much better card if you have a black splash and are not graveyard reliant, which applies to this deck.

Hanni

07-20-2008, 08:28 PM

This list is awful.

lol

The reasons in the opening list that explain why you don't run Thoughtseize weren't good reasons. Thoughtseize is 1cc spot removal that also answers Counterbalances (which are going to wreck you) and improves all of your matchups all around. Why do you need more Winged Slivers... I realize Goyf is widely used and flying over them is strong. However, with StP/Thoughtseize, hopefully you won't see more than 1 and you have inevitability by growing Slivers.

I believe Hibernation Sliver is strong... in fact, I remember when I was preaching about him and the 4c lists for a while and you guys thought it was horrible. However, I don't think 4/4 on the protection Slivers is necessary. I was an advocate before of 4/2 and I still am. I run 7 cantrip so 6 of them is fine. Combat tricks and mass removal protection is nice but I don't think it warrants 4. I suppose this is all relevative to metagame, though.

I also remember preaching the use of Vial a while ago and it getting dismissed... and you guys were running 18 lands then. How is 17, with cantrips and Vial, any worse? The deck is mana hungry with it's creature base and the deck runs 21 mana producers for them with 7 cantrips. Sounds plenty to me, this isn't a control deck.

However, I haven't played Slivers in a while so maybe that has somehow affected my deckbuilding skills?

lol

xsockmonkeyx

07-20-2008, 08:38 PM

What you were advocating before was the right deck at the wrong time. That was before Goyf and Counterbalance were big, and with Goblins everywhere and Landstill on the sideline. The list you posted above goes against what you were advocating before IMO. Just go back to what you had already.

Hanni

07-20-2008, 09:17 PM

And how does +2 Hibernation Sliver, +2 Winged Sliver, -1 Harmonic Sliver improve your Goyf and Counterbalance matchups better? I would think +4 Thoughtseize would improve that some. T4 Brainstorm 2 Top is not the sort of cantrip configuration I like to roll with in aggro/control decks either.

Honestly, I see alot of other decks that are competitive outside of just Counterbalance and Goyf, which means that the deck needs to consider those as well. I think Thoughtseize does a great job of improving other matchups. You are running black but not running Thoughtseize? Something doesn't seem right.

Volt

07-20-2008, 10:12 PM

Curby

07-21-2008, 11:46 AM

As for the land count, 17 simply isn't enough in a 4-color deck, especially when 2 of those lands don't even produce/fetch blue. You can't rely on always landing an Aether Vial. Monkey has been trying to convince me to go to 19 lands, and he may be right.

Regarding SDT vs Ponder... I'm certainly not going to malign Ponder, but I chose SDT because its power in the mid- to late-game is stupefying. Also, while Ponder is possibly the best turn 1 cantrip in the game, it can also be the difference between your opponent's goyf being 3/4 or 4/5. It is a lot easier for us to deal with a 3/4 goyf than a 4/5 goyf.

The 4x Winged Sliver idea is stolen from Nihil_Credo's list in the 2-man tournament (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=245910&postcount=2). I like it because it helps me race against Thresh. Sometimes it's better to just fly over the 4/5 goyfs instead of sitting back and trying to play the wall strategy. Also, sometimes I find that I have to pitch my first Winged to Force, so it's good to know that there are 3 more in the deck.

The main fear I have about losing Ponder is losing a full third of your shuffle effects. If you keep a 1-land hand and Brainstorm doesn't yield a land, you might be out of the game already by the time you recover. Ponder allows you to shuffle away 3 non-land cards and try again. I tend to not keep 1-land hands, but with 18 land they're disturbingly common.

I kinda like the 4 Winged actually, cause the evasion simply wins games. However, why did you move away from the maindeck Countertop?

Volt

07-21-2008, 12:11 PM

Hanni

07-21-2008, 02:36 PM

Well, I don't run the Hibernations for the combat tricks, so that's probably where the differences come in. I simply run it as Crystalline #5 and #6, where it can protect Slivers from spot removal or itself (and however many others depending on my life total) against mass removal. I usually don't lose more than 6 life a game to Hibernation, in the games where I do see him.

Honestly, if I'm playing at a large tournament that I actually care about winning, I don't play any version of Countersliver. Countersliver should not be viewed as anything more than a semi-competitive casual deck. You can thank Tarmofuckingoyf for that.

Just like Fish. I do enjoy playing decks like Fish and CounterSlivers on MWS every once in a while cause they are still fun to play.

Artanis

07-27-2008, 05:36 PM

ive been playing meat hooks for a few months and ive tried the 4 color versions but its just not as consistent as the 3 color ive been running. heres my list.

4 Mutavault
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest

4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver

4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords To Plowshares

My board varies from week to week but my standard board is:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Stifle
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Krosan Grip

Id love to hear what you guys think. I am always open to suggestions

Volt

07-27-2008, 09:49 PM

Illissius

07-27-2008, 11:10 PM

What... is the Stinkweed Imp for?

EDIT -- And I do think there was a Survival Slivers thread somewhere, though IIRC it was 5C.

Hanni

07-27-2008, 11:34 PM

This is supposed to be 5c too, I messed up on the manabase, there's supposed to be 1 red source in there. I'm considering just running 4 City of Brass and mocking the 5c Thresh manabases.

When I'm less high I'll do some editing. Then I'll probably move this somewhere else. However, I think it has just as much of a place in here as it does in the Survival thread. Though a seperate thread would be better. I still think this is the evolution of the archtype, if it were to be viable at all, at least given the current metagame.

deviant

07-29-2008, 03:29 PM

I have no idea if this has or has not been brought up here, but I just saw a sliver decklist sporting three mirror entities, and at least I got excited.

(If this has been brought up, and beaten down then I am sorry for the inconvenience, I do not keep up with this deck.)

Artanis

07-29-2008, 05:29 PM

when i first wrote down the deck i thought it would have mana problems too. either im just getting lucky or what but my meta has dragon stompy and stax running rampant in it and mana really isnt a problem. my dream hand has no colored land in it.

RockOfTheFormat

08-01-2008, 02:17 AM

Artanis

08-03-2008, 01:33 PM

Land is colorless... noted!

=-l u know what i meant dude.

Volt

08-20-2008, 09:36 PM

Arkham

08-20-2008, 09:41 PM

His sideboard looks interesting.

How many people splash black for planar void? And how good of ratio are mutavaults to the rest of the deck's mana curve? From what I understand, Countersliver has always had a problem with the fragility of it's mana base.

Volt

08-20-2008, 10:03 PM

Pinder

08-20-2008, 10:05 PM

That list is....a surprisingly standard 4c list. Mutavault is the only difference, and that's only something I discounted because I never really got it to work with the manabase being as fragile as it was. I'm curious to see what this guy got paired up against and how much mana-denial he ended up facing.

Also, no CB/Top, and Planar Void instead of Leyline in the board. Interesting.

Hanni

08-20-2008, 10:25 PM

I think Mutavault is very interesting. However, I'd be inclined to make some changes to better accomodate it. Between Vial and Mutavault, the deck should definitely run Standstills. The deck always wanted card advantage before but there was never anything worth running... Mutavault sorta changes that up.

4c Sliverstill

Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Mutavault

Creatures (18)
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

I think that's about what I'd do, but I'm not sure. Mutavault is definitely interesting though, since it solves alot of problems Slivers used to have, i.e mass removal effects. The U/W/x Landstill matchup now becomes better since WoG and Humility don't hit Mutavaults. Between Hibernations and Mutavaults, I can see this matchup actually being winnable.

xsockmonkeyx

08-20-2008, 10:31 PM

/facepalm

Hanni, stop posting untested lists in every post you make. Seriously, it's getting old.

Hanni

08-20-2008, 10:34 PM

How is it that much different from the list Volt just posted? It's something interesting that I figured I'd suggest to those that actually play Slivers might wanna test. I've been playing it on MWS for a little while and it's been doing just fine. I'll stay out of your petdecks thread though, since everytime I try to post something, I get a similar response from you.

I remember a time when Volt sent me a PM asking me to post in the CounterSlivers thread. Whatever.

Volt

08-20-2008, 10:34 PM

Pinder

08-20-2008, 10:42 PM

Umm... I have to admit, I was thinking about the same thing. I wasn't going to post anything until I had a chance to test it out a little, though.

For what it's worth, one of my only two losses day 1 of Columbus was to a UWg list that was running Standstills (and Vials). If it works, I could see Standstill being the Ringleader of Slivers. Mutavault only seems to make that prospect more believable. I tried while back to make a UWb controllish list that ran Mutavault as a way to fight mass removal (which they did rather reasonably), but it was lacking in 'oomph'. I think that if any list is going to have the best chance of being a contender it's the 4c, but if that's the case the something absolutely has to happen to the manabase to support 4 colors + Mutavault.

Volt

08-20-2008, 10:48 PM

Arkham

08-20-2008, 11:16 PM

I originally wanted to reserve the space of utility lands in this deck for something like Wasteland, but if mutavaults turn out to be as stable as they sound I might just pick up a playset myself.

Though, I'm going to watch and wait before eating the cost of those cards. Don't they go for like $30 a piece?

Nihil Credo

08-20-2008, 11:27 PM

I think that if any list is going to have the best chance of being a contender it's the 4c, but if that's the case the something absolutely has to happen to the manabase to support 4 colors + Mutavault.

Running City of Brass improved the manabase of 4C Threshold from "scoops to Stone Rain" to "scoops to two Stone Rains". It could work just as well here. Maybe even better since you don't get life loss from Thoughtseize.

xsockmonkeyx

08-21-2008, 12:15 AM

I'll stay out of your petdecks thread though, since everytime I try to post something, I get a similar response from you.

Good.

Cutting Daze would be bad because it makes it harder to stick Aether Vial, which is priority #1. I wouldn't play 4 Mutavault. An opening hand with 2 is a mulligan, and I would already say that 3 is being a little greedy with the manabase. Planar Void is superior to Leyline in the sense that it isnt a completely dead topdeck, and can be replayed after getting CoV'd. Unless you expect a ton of Ichorid/Reanimator then Crypt is better general purpose grave hate. Plus, you probably lose to Ichorid anyway.

@Nihil: what's your manabase with Cities?

Volt

08-21-2008, 12:58 AM

Nihil Credo

08-21-2008, 09:42 AM

@Nihil: what's your manabase with Cities?

Hadn't made one yet, it was just an idea. However, a starting point is easy to figure out. The 5C Thresh lands are

4 City of Brass
8 fetches
2 Tundra (StP, Enforcer)
1 USea (Tseize, SB Extirpate)
2 Trop (Goyf, Goose, SB GRip)
1 Volc (SB Clasm, REB)

so 4C Slivers could become something like this:

4 City
8 fetches
3 Tundra (Cryst, Sinew, StP)
1 USea (Hib)
1 Trop (Musc)
+ X Mutavault

Although I notice now that I totally forgot about the Hibernation Sliver life-loss, which can easily surpass that from Thoughtseizes. So maybe 3 Cities are preferable.

Volt

08-25-2008, 10:30 AM

Van Phanel

08-25-2008, 01:33 PM

I've seen the player at GP Kopenhagen playing. He played a "traditional" 4-color list (FoW, Daze, Vial, Crystalline, Muscle, Hibernation, Sinew; I haven't seen anything else except lands)

Anarky87

09-03-2008, 11:29 PM

I know there hasn't been any discussion on the UWb version of this deck, but I'd like there to be. I've sleeved up the deck and it plays great. I know there was a little mini-report about the tournament Volt T4'd in, but I was wondering if there was anymore that possibly Volt could elaborate on. Was there anything that stood out during the tournament or any details you remember? I know I've been very interested in the deck and would like to see some more discussion about it. Thanks.

Volt

09-03-2008, 11:58 PM

Volt

09-04-2008, 03:57 PM

Nihil Credo

09-20-2008, 08:57 PM

Just dropping by to mention that CounterSlivers has racketed up another Top 8 at the motherfucking Bazaar of Moxen, the biggest event of the whole year (over 200 players). Seems like the one-talon guys have a way of placing at large events.

(Rest of the Top 8: 2 Thresh, 1 Doran Rock, 1 Loam, 1 some CounterTop deck, 1 Landstill, 1 probably Goyf Sligh)

Volt

09-20-2008, 10:52 PM

raharu

09-20-2008, 11:36 PM

Volt

09-22-2008, 04:05 PM

AngryTroll

09-23-2008, 01:43 AM

I really, really, REALLY hate losing a game of Magic to Wastelands and/or Stifles, and that gives you a clue to how much I hate losing to myself because of mana issues.

Four color gives you Muscular Sliver and Harmonic Sliver, and there can be no denying that they are great. Three color gives you basic lands.

Being resilient to non-basic hate versus a faster clock and larger creatures; I would not place bets on which deck is stronger in an unknown metagame.

Against Goblins, what's better, Muscle Sliver, or basic Island? Against Thrash? Dragon Stompy (shudder...sigh...) Those are the questions that need answering.

frogboy

09-23-2008, 03:32 AM

You probably need to be hit by LD twice and have a land light hand and no Vial for it to really be a big deal, so I can see that not really mattering.

I'm curious if Scrubland was ever tested so that you could get basic Island and Scrubland and have one nonWastable land but still have access to Hibernation and Crystalline.

frenchy-man

09-26-2008, 01:06 PM

The reason why the manabase works, is that DS isn't played anymore in France, even though I recognise that the deck is weak to wastelands.

I also think that the deck has had some luck the round before the top 8 but I am not sure of it.

I'll probably play it when my 4-off crystallin arrived...

Rush

09-26-2008, 09:42 PM

I definitely think Standstill is the way to go. The does a better job with Standstill than freaking Landstill. That says something.

xsockmonkeyx

09-29-2008, 01:20 PM

Against Goblins, what's better, Muscle Sliver, or basic Island? Against Thrash? Dragon Stompy (shudder...sigh...) Those are the questions that need answering.

Basic Island, in all three cases, 100%.

I'm curious if Scrubland was ever tested so that you could get basic Island and Scrubland and have one nonWastable land but still have access to Hibernation and Crystalline.

Scrubland sucks. tl;dr: it doesnt produce blue (shocker). If you play basic Plains then you have access to Crystal. Hibernation is not absolutely essential.

EDIT: This deck won the Legacy Championship, the largest tourney of the year, and t4'ed the 2 man tourney against great odds. Shame on you for ignoring it.

frogboy

09-29-2008, 09:36 PM

It not producing blue would be more relevant if you had six hundred million blue intensive spells you wanted to play. You don't. The best reason I can think of not to play Scrubland is that if your mana is under attack, Island and Scrubland as your only lands is not gonna get you very far because you are just going to have your lands inevitably destroyed anyway. On the other hand, sometimes you only draw two of your eighteen lands, and it's nice to be able to cast all your spells. Other times, you go basic, dual, they Waste, then you can get Scrubland and still have access to all your spells. The opportunity cost in terms of cutting a Sea isn't particularly high; it's mainly a question of how much you'd want to kill yourself if you drew Scrubland outside of those corner cases. My guess is "not very much."

xsockmonkeyx

09-29-2008, 10:09 PM

I understand your argument well. It's basically the tl;dr part. Sure it gives you some flexibility in terms of your fetching, but it's pretty dead in your opening hand, and I think Ive mulliganed the non-blue dual (Savannah, Scrubland, whatever) more times than I fetched it out. I guess it may be a personal preference, but for me if a land doesnt produce blue it better be Mutavault or Wasteland.

There's also the fact that it won't bounce for Daze, but that's besides my main point.

frogboy

09-29-2008, 10:20 PM

The only time it makes your opening hand dead is if it's Scrubland, Mutavault, spells.

Your entire argument seems to be "it doesn't produce blue, gtfo, Hibernation Sliver isn't critical." That doesn't really address the issue of "it lets you cast your spells when you are land light or being disrupted."

I also think Hibernation is completely nuts, but eh.

Volt

09-29-2008, 11:01 PM

frogboy

09-29-2008, 11:45 PM

My inclination would be to cut the third Sea for the Scrubland, but cutting the Plains probably isn't unreasonable given that you only have Strands to find it. I'd have to actually play a few games to figure that out. I only suggested Scrubland because when I kept picking on your mana I noticed some situations where one would have been good for you.

Dark_Cynic87

09-30-2008, 12:25 PM

Scrubland sucks. tl;dr: it doesnt produce blue (shocker).

Yeah, but it's still fetchable by both blue fetches. That's a major plus in it's favor that I think you are mistakenly ignoring.

Pce,

--DC

xsockmonkeyx

09-30-2008, 01:53 PM

I never said Scrubland couldnt be fetched out with all 8 of your lands, and to say Im ignoring any side of the argument is pretty baseless. What I am saying is that its inclusion is dubious, when you never fetch it out to begin with, and you never want to see it in your opening grip. Major pluses fall short when your ends do not meet up with your actual goals.

RogueMTG

11-04-2008, 10:30 AM

I'm pretty new to Counterslivers/legacy in general, but I shuffled up my version of it for a small local event on Sunday. Managed to go 4-0 in swiss, beating a strange UR Wildfire/Magnivore, RG Sligh, Canonist Affinity, and UG Threshold. I finally lost to a weird "bauble affinity" deck in the top 4 (winning a single booster instead of a dual land... really weak prize support for $5 entry imo, woo $-1).

Anyway, I'd appreciate some SB help. A few matchups I felt like didn't have anything useful to bring in, and when I did bring things in I had no idea what I should cut for them. Any advice would be most helpful.

Here's my current list:

Lands (19):
4x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
3x Mutavault
1x Plains
1x Forest
3x Island

Creatures (19):
4x Plated Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Crystalline Sliver
3x Winged Sliver

Artifacts (4):
4x AEther Vial

Other Spells (18):
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Brainstorm
3x Standstill

Sideboard (15):
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Krosan Grip
3x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Trickbind (don't own stifle)
3x Tormod's Crypt

Thanks in advance :).

Deger

11-05-2008, 11:54 AM

I would look into talon sliver.. I have found Goyff to really be problem and a talon sliver really does a good job to fix this..
Maybe depending on meta go 2 talon 1 winged in the main.
Chalice I am not 100% sure of because it could bite you also since you get 1 trop and one tundra and you don't need any more lands out.I will usually never have more then 4 lands out in game usually I sit at 3 making chalice IMO not as good but with the vials chalice at 2 is a non issue... The chalice does help some MU's maybe that is a meta call..
3 hurykls recall??? I would maybe use this slot to round out the winged and talon sliver so you have access to 3 a piece.
you went 4-0 in the swiss so you had something right I guess..
Sometimes you just don't have anything or need anything for a specific MU. that is also a nice time to play mind games with the talon and winged slivers..

maybe you also want 3 vials and one more brainstorm. again though you went 4-0 so...

RogueMTG

12-01-2008, 02:58 AM

Chalice has been awesome for me so far, managed to completely hose some Burn & random Combo decks.

Hurkyl's Recall was just in anticipation of Affinity decks running about, which ended up being solid, but it's probably not flexible enough for a larger field. Harmonic seems more useful.

Talon is handy, I think I'm going to try out this SB next time and see how it goes:

Sideboard:
3x Harmonic Sliver
2x Talon Sliver
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Stifle
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Tormod's Crypt

Volt

12-29-2008, 04:24 PM

Time to rescue this thread from the third page of the forum.

Some questions to consider:

3 colors or 4 colors? I favor 4. Hibernation Sliver rocks.

Standstill: worth it or not? I tried it for a couple months with mixed results. I'm leaning toward NOT at this point. Has anyone else tried it?

Relic of Progenitus: A worthy maindeck choice? Lots of decks arrogantly rely on their graveyards. Relic punishes them. At worst, it's an overcosted cantrip.

Here's the 4-color list I'm rocking at the moment:

20 lands
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island

4 artifacts
4 Aether Vial

19 slivers
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

17 instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Eladamri's Call (welcome back, old friend)

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
4 Meddling Mage (or your graveyard hate of choice)
3 Ensnare (ninja tech - especially for the mirror match!)
2 Darkheart Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

scarlet_moon

12-29-2008, 04:31 PM

In the UWb-version, can Esper Charm be an useful addition?

Esper Charm
Instant, WUB (3)
Choose one - Destroy target enchantment; or draw two cards; or target player discards two cards.

Also, what about Volrath's Stronghold? I testet Necrotic Sliver and it was very often useful to play it with vial and destroy someting annoying.

I use this Decklist at the moment.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
3 Necrotic Sliver
2 Essence Sliver

4 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Esper Charm
4 Force of Will

Please comment :)

Volt

12-29-2008, 04:49 PM

In the UWb-version, can Esper Charm be an useful addition?

Esper Charm
Instant, WUB (3)
Choose one - Destroy target enchantment; or draw two cards; or target player discards two cards.

Also, what about Volrath's Stronghold? I testet Necrotic Sliver and it was very often useful to play it with vial and destroy someting annoying.

Actually, I'd like to hear about YOUR experience with Esper Charm, since you're apparently playing it. Just off the top of my head, it seems too clunky, especially if you have any colorless lands (i.e. Mutavault or Wasteland) in your manabase. How has it been for you?

Volrath Stronghold seems fine, although perhaps a little unnecessary with Hibernation Sliver.

I've never been a fan of Necrotic Sliver. It's basically a 6-mana Vindicate. I'd rather just play the 3-mana Vindicate.

Curby

12-30-2008, 12:34 AM

I'd rather just play the 3-mana Vindicate.

I think you used to, actually. You seem to be preferring the creature route now, with the Eladamri's Call and Mutavaults. Why the change from the more disruptive route? Also, do you miss the Ponders? You don't need them to search for land as much with the new design, but you can't find the tools as easily now either.

Has this new list done any better against landstill? That used to be one of the harder matchups for this deck.

Volt

12-30-2008, 01:17 AM

I think you used to, actually. You seem to be preferring the creature route now, with the Eladamri's Call and Mutavaults. Why the change from the more disruptive route? Also, do you miss the Ponders? You don't need them to search for land as much with the new design, but you can't find the tools as easily now either.

Has this new list done any better against landstill? That used to be one of the harder matchups for this deck.

Yeah, I've tried Vindicates. I've tried just about every reasonable or semi-reasonable thing you can try with a sliver deck. Ultimately, I've come to the conclusion that playing disruptive cards outside the core suite of Daze/FoW/StoP just keeps you from doing what you almost always want to be doing - playing slivers and beating face. I think I've made the mistake over the last couple of years of trying to make the deck look and act like Thresh. You could say I've had Thresh-envy. Btw, other people figured this stuff out much more quickly than I did. All you have to do is look at the Countersliver lists that have T8'ed in Europe in the last year. Most of them have been pretty straight-forward, with none of the cutesy crap that I've been messing around with, like Counterbalance, Standstill, Vindicate, etc.

So, this list isn't anything new, really. It's a pretty standard 4-color list, except for the slightly janky Eladamri's Call. There's enough lands and sliver redundancy that you don't really need extraneous cantrips to find stuff.

Oh, and Landstill is still a bad matchup, of course. There doesn't seem to be any way around that.

AngryTroll

12-30-2008, 04:41 AM

Here's the 4-color list I'm rocking at the moment:

20 lands
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Hallowed Fountain (yeah, yeah, I know)
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island

4 artifacts
4 Aether Vial

19 slivers
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

17 instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Eladamri's Call (welcome back, old friend)

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
4 Meddling Mage (or your graveyard hate of choice)
3 Ensnare (ninja tech - especially for the mirror match!)
2 Darkheart Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

I like this list a lot. The one-of Hallowed Fountain is a fair choice...Extirpate may be bad, but the "good-ness" of the card doesn't matter when you get Wasteland -> Extirpated out of white mana.

I'd like to see one more Winged Sliver, even with Elamadri's Call, but I really like the 4 Hibernation and Sinew Slivers, 3 Muscle Sliver route. The Harmonic has always been awesome, and I like that Elamadri's Call gets to act as Harmonic number two and Winged Sliver two at the same time.

Focusing on dropping creatures and beating face makes a lot of sense. Especially with the Harmonic, I'm don't feel like Vindicate is absolutely necessary.

Relic is awesome. Cantripping it is pretty weak, but it just eats some decks alive. I'd speculate that running three or four main would be enough to tip some dicey matchups solidly into your favor. Aggroloam, Survival, Ichorid, and even some of the combo decks can drop games to an early Relic; especially if it's unexpected in game one.

JediCheese

01-05-2009, 12:01 AM

Pinder

01-05-2009, 01:11 AM

I searched the thread but found nothing on the benefits/downsides of Chrome Mox. It seems that it would really stabilize the mana base and allow you to throw a 2nd Crystalline Sliver or Hibernation Sliver away and accelerate you into the meat of the deck.

While I admit that I've never done any testing with Chrome Mox, your reasoning still seems to be flawed. I'm not really sure what about a 2nd Crystalline or Hibernation Sliver would make it worthy of being 'thrown away'. I mean, it's true that their effects don't stack, but that doesn't stop them from being a 2/2 (usually much more) for 2 mana. Why would you throw them under a Mox to get to the meat of the deck? They are the meat of the deck. I don't think I've ever been sad to see a second Crystalline or Hibernation. Occasionally I'll hold them in hand if I'm playing around mass removal, but in most occasions a second Crystalline or Hibernation is just one more thing that makes it harder for them to deal with your shit.

Re: Volt's 4c list, as much as I hate a 1-of anything, I get that Call is just Harmonic/Winged/whatever #X, so that's fine. But how necessary has the 1 MD Harmonic really been, anyway? I mean, they were in my sideboards for a while, but eventually I cut them there too, for Grip. Can you get at a bit of the reasoning behind that?

Also, the manabase has 1 basic in it (and only 8 other lands that produce colored mana). I know it's 4 color, so the manabase is bound to be ugly either way, but there has to be a way to shore that up, right? I suppose you do have Aether Vial, though. It also seemed like the main reason to try and abuse Mutavault was that we were trying to abuse Standstill as a draw engine. Without any Standstill cuteness (which I'll agree is largely unnecessary), does Mutavault really pull enough weight to warrant 3 colorless lands in a 4c deck?

As for Vindicate, I think the main reason it doesn't make the cut is that it's 3 mana at sorcery speed. There's a reason that all of the disruption in the deck is Instant speed and either free or 1 mana. If I'm going to be playing expensive (comparatively, at least) spells on my turn, they better come with legs (or in this case, one arm). And I know that Necrotic costs the same as Vindicate and has a body, but really it ends up just being a 2/2 for 3 mana, and I'd run Darkheart Sliver (a 2/2 for 2) simply because it's cheaper, and would accomplish about the same thing as Necrotic.

Volt

01-05-2009, 01:36 AM

I searched the thread but found nothing on the benefits/downsides of Chrome Mox. It seems that it would really stabilize the mana base and allow you to throw a 2nd Crystalline Sliver or Hibernation Sliver away and accelerate you into the meat of the deck.

What would you suggest taking out to make room for Chrome Moxes? And what if you don't have an extra Hibernation or Crystalline to pitch to it?

Basically, it isn't worth the card disadvantage. The main reason to play Chrome Mox in any deck is so you have a chance to do something ridiculous on turn 1, like play a Sea Drake or Chalice of the Void, or combo your opponent out. Playing a Crystalline Sliver on turn 1 is nice and all, but it falls well short of ridiculous.

Re: Volt's 4c list, as much as I hate a 1-of anything, I get that Call is just Harmonic/Winged/whatever #X, so that's fine. But how necessary has the 1 MD Harmonic really been, anyway? I mean, they were in my sideboards for a while, but eventually I cut them there too, for Grip. Can you get at a bit of the reasoning behind that?

It's a silver bullet. Counterbalance and Phyrexian Dreadnought are public enemies #1 and #2, but there are plenty of other worthy targets.

Have you ever vialed in a Harmonic Sliver to blow up your opponent's Standstill, followed by playing another sliver to blow up his Aether Vial? I have. It's very satisfying.

Ever scooped to Ensnaring Bridge because you had no maindeck answer for it? I have, more than once. Like it or not, jank like Burning Bridges does get played. Not everybody plays decks from the DTB forum.

Also, the manabase has 1 basic in it (and only 8 other lands that produce colored mana). I know it's 4 color, so the manabase is bound to be ugly either way, but there has to be a way to shore that up, right? I suppose you do have Aether Vial, though. It also seemed like the main reason to try and abuse Mutavault was that we were trying to abuse Standstill as a draw engine. Without any Standstill cuteness (which I'll agree is largely unnecessary), does Mutavault really pull enough weight to warrant 3 colorless lands in a 4c deck?

Most 4c decks don't play any basics. I'm being a little obstinate by insisting on keeping a basic island in my build. I want to be able to blue blast a Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon if I have to.

Mutavault most definitely pulls its weight, with or without Standstill. Go to deckcheck.net and check out all the 4c Countersliver lists that T8'd in the last 12 months. Almost all of them ran Mutavaults.

lebarion

01-05-2009, 06:38 AM

Volt's list

I like the list a lot, except maybe the mana base (although I must try it before suggest anything) and the 3 Muscle Slivers. With Eladamri's Call maindeck and Ensnare in the sideboard, woudn't 4 Muscle + 2 Winged be the way to go?

Volt

01-05-2009, 11:06 AM

I like the list a lot, except maybe the mana base (although I must try it before suggest anything) and the 3 Muscle Slivers. With Eladamri's Call maindeck and Ensnare in the sideboard, woudn't 4 Muscle + 2 Winged be the way to go?

The mana base is pretty stable just the way I posted it, although I've since made the following tweak:
-1 Hallowed Fountain
-1 Underground Sea
+1 Tundra
+1 Scrubland

Some people would cut a land to squeeze in the 4th Muscle Sliver, but I hate skimping on lands. If you're going to do it, though, cut a Mutavault.

I would definitely recommend against cutting a Winged Sliver under any circumstance. Winged #3 is way more important than Sinew/Muscle #8. Not everybody is going to play Ensnare in their sideboard. I imagine most people won't, actually.

Curby

01-12-2009, 02:22 PM

The mana base is pretty stable just the way I posted it, although I've since made the following tweak:
-1 Hallowed Fountain
-1 Underground Sea
+1 Tundra
+1 Scrubland

Speaking of tweaking the manabase, do we really need 8 fetches? Shuffling after a cantrip is great, but we've halved our number of cantrips. Stifles and the odd Extirpate can be quite annoying, and loss of life is never a good thing. How about cutting 2 fetches for an extra Trop and Sea?

P.S. Ditto on the Winged. They really are that good.

Volt

01-13-2009, 12:09 PM

Speaking of tweaking the manabase, do we really need 8 fetches? Shuffling after a cantrip is great, but we've halved our number of cantrips. Stifles and the odd Extirpate can be quite annoying, and loss of life is never a good thing. How about cutting 2 fetches for an extra Trop and Sea?

On the surface, that doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing to do. It's an interesting quandary, actually. Are we bound to lose more games from:

a) the occasional extra point of life loss from breaking a fetch-land (when playing 8 fetches), or...

b) occasional color-screw due to drawing that extra trop or u-sea instead of one of the fetches that you took out.

I think the answer is b, which is why I'll stick with 8 fetches. I prefer the versatility of being able to fetch whichever land I need, especially in a 4-color deck. I certainly can't prove my answer is correct, though.

Some computer genius needs to build a competent Magic-playing bot. This is the sort of question that can only be resolved by running a bazillion simulations.

Curby

01-13-2009, 01:02 PM

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
4 Meddling Mage (or your graveyard hate of choice)
3 Ensnare (ninja tech - especially for the mirror match!)
2 Darkheart Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

It's weird to see that you've no grave hate at all after talking about how grave-centric some decks are. If you were going to maindeck 2-3 Relics, what would you take out? The Call and Harmonic? Maybe Muta #3? I actually really like the maindeck Harmonic and Call, as a lot of Artifacts and Enchantments can annoy us, between CB, Deed, EE, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Pithing Needle, Chalice, Standstill, Dreadnought, 3Sphere, Propaganda. So the question becomes whether neutering the grave is more important, or neutering utility Artifacts and Enchantments. Is there a reasonable way to fit both?

How useful has Meddling Mage been for you? What made you choose it over Pithing Needle? Is stopping EE and Deed less of a concern for you now? Also, in this deck it seems that Mage is a prime target for opposing removal esp. after Crystalline or Harmonic hit the field, so I'm wondering at that choice.

Do you see a lot of Burn in your meta? The two Darkhearts are intriguing (they'd be a lot easier to use than Essence Slivers) but I still wonder at their utility.

My side is shaping up like the following:

2 Harmonic Sliver (1 main)
3 Pithing Needle (Please tell me if Mages belong here instead)
3 Engineered Plague (lots of random aggro and tribal around me, and it can answer EtW etc)
4 Grave Hate (Relics? Planar Void? Less if there is maindeck room for some)
3? Stifle? Grip? Meddling Mage?

I play in a really undeveloped meta with all manner of casual/custom designs and a few top tier decks running around, but largely aggro-centric. What sort of sideboard would you recommend for such a diverse meta?

I realize that Ensnare is great against opposing aggro, but at the same time aren't we supposed to be good against aggro? I am finding it difficult to justify dedicating 20% of the board to it.

Pinder

01-13-2009, 01:20 PM

I realize that Ensnare is great against opposing aggro, but at the same time aren't we supposed to be good against aggro? I am finding it difficult to justify dedicating 20% of the board to it.

Ensnare is there for the mirror, as far as I can tell. It's fantastic there, but if you're the only person playing slivers in your meta, I can't really find a reason for it because, as you said, we beat aggro anyway.

Chronmaster

02-07-2009, 04:35 PM

Hey. I am interested in playing Counterslivers for the GP in Chicago.

I have a few questions:
1. Is this a good deck to play for such a wide-open meta as a GP?
2. What sort of SB should I pack for the GP?
3. Does Path to Exile replace Swords, since we are a beatdown deck?
4. How many lands is correct?

Volt

02-07-2009, 05:26 PM

Pinder

02-07-2009, 07:21 PM

1. Is this a good deck to play for such a wide-open meta as a GP?

Um...yes and no. It's really really good and handling randomness, and will pretty much walk over any random aggro (Goblins included, the deck was originally designed to beat it). Once you get into the upper tables though, you might see trouble. The Landstill matchup is just bad. No two ways about it. The deck is just no fun for you. It's winnable, but you need to get at least a little lucky. Thresh is alright, especiall if you're maindecking Spell Snares (which I would heartily reccommend for the GP). Also, be mindful that there are a couple of different ways to go with the deck; there's UWg as well as 4c. 4c is a bit better against Landstill and control in general, whereas UWg is stellar against Aggro and good against Aggro-Control.

That said though, if you're looking for an Aggro-Control deck for the GP, there are probably better options. Thresh is a DTB for a reason.

2. What sort of SB should I pack for the GP?

Hrm. That's actually a pretty tough call. You'll probably want at least a few Grips, at least. Hyrdoblast for Gobs/Random red stuff....the rest is pretty malleable.

3. Does Path to Exile replace Swords, since we are a beatdown deck?

I've never personally had any problems with Swords slowing down my clock any, but then again I've never played with PtE, so your guess is as good as mine. Try it out, post your results here.

4. How many lands is correct?

Depends on the build. For UWg, 18 lands is preferable, although you can get by with 17. For UWgb, you want at least 20 (especially since at least 3 of them are usually Mutavaults).

In short, I really like this deck, and you could probably do decently with it in Chicago, but if I'm being really honest, there are probably options that will do you better.

nodahero

02-07-2009, 09:44 PM

I would not dismiss Path To Exile so quickly. The card is trully insane. The relvent question IMO is wether you are afraid of the 'Nought. If you expect him by all means I would suggest go with Path because no matter how aggressive you are 12 life isn't exactly a small portion to scratch off.

kicks_422

02-07-2009, 09:51 PM

Path to Exile could supplement StP, but would never be able to replace it.

Curby

02-09-2009, 05:45 AM

Path to Exile could supplement StP, but would never be able to replace it.

People keep saying this, but what decks can fit 8 point removal and don't already run 8? What slots in serious lists does PtE actually fill/replace? From another perspective, if you could have run 8 StP in countersliver, what would you take out? In what matchups would we prefer to weaken our sliverbase and/or countermagic for more point removal? The deck's just too tight already.

We could have run Smother but we didn't. I would have preferred to run Vindicates or O-Rings instead for broad disruption, but we didn't run those either. We've had great point removal options all along. We have never been in the market for a complement to Swords. Since we're never going to get a better replacement for Swords (feel free to prove me wrong, WoTC), another suboptimal solution is just a non-event.

kicks_422

02-09-2009, 06:57 AM

I never said anything about that statement applying only to this deck, or to any current deck for that matter. StP is the best targeted removal spell, and can't be replaced by PtE. However, if you're deckbuilding and you have 2 open slots which you want as more targeted removal, PtE is a choice along with Smother, Lightning Bolt, etc.

Maverick676

02-09-2009, 10:39 AM

Path to exile should never be played in any color splash of meathooks. You just do not need that much targeted removal. Also path to exile wasn't printed for legacy, its geared toward T2 and extended so they can have something that is almost as good as swords. Whenever you find yourself looking at a card and asking yourself "is this better than swords to plowshares?" the answer will always be no.

Curby

02-09-2009, 08:27 PM

Path to Exile could supplement StP, but would never be able to replace it.

I never said anything about that statement applying only to this deck, or to any current deck for that matter. StP is the best targeted removal spell, and can't be replaced by PtE. However, if you're deckbuilding and you have 2 open slots which you want as more targeted removal, PtE is a choice along with Smother, Lightning Bolt, etc.

It's clear that PtE is inferior to StP in Legacy. It's clear that it's a choice for inclusion in any deck that can support the color. Those points are just stating the obvious, though. When would you actually use it? Lacking such cases, why are we even continuing to talk about PtE, especially in this thread? Am I missing some point of yours that's relevant to the Meathooks discussion?

Pardon if I sound pissy, but when I tried to call you out for stating the obvious, you made another post that just appeared to once again just state the obvious. Sorry if I'm missing something here.

kicks_422

02-10-2009, 06:43 AM

Uh, because this obvious thing escapes the dude that suggested PtE over StP.

JediCheese

03-09-2009, 11:21 PM

What I ended up playing at GP: Chicago
21 Lands
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Watery Grave
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
18 Slivers
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
17 Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Eladamri's Call
15 Sideboard
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Planar Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Duress
2 Harmonic Sliver
3 Meddling Mage

Not exactly ideal but pretty close to what the other guy posted. I ended up going 3-3-1 and then dropped. I think I would have done better had I played it more beforehand (I did minimal testing) and not gotten 4 hours of sleep the night before (I am a sucker for 5 player star and with multiple control decks, it makes a LONG game).

Match 1: Red Burn
He took game one because I didn't have many slivers in hand. I did stop a few burn spells. Game two I sideboarded in Duress and Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast. Out with the Swords to Plowshares, a Plains, and the Harmonic Sliver. Game two there was epic blue vs red action going on with countering burn spells. Game three I duressed and proceeded to wreck his hand with counters. Sadly, game three we both died at the same time (card that does damage to both players) and thus tried to draw. The judge said that you can't draw and it is to 2 wins, not best of three! So we play game 4 and I smash face. He still almost pulled it off but the sliver pump was going strong and I drew a bunch of counterspells.

Match 2: Some sort of Sea Drake Deck
Game one I stomped him, StP'ed his Sea Drake and smashed face with slivers. Game two I board in the Duress' for a Plains, the Harmonic Sliver and a Hibernation Sliver. He plays City of Traitors and then Chrome Mox. I Force of Will the Mox :) Land denial the hard way. Next turn he taps the City of Traitors, plays an island and goes Sea Drake. I Swords to Plowshares his Drake. Next turn he plays an island and I start the beatdown with slivers. The turn after, he casts a Sea Drake and I Daze it, and he gives up. The epicness of slowing down his draws was hilarious.

Match 3: Landstill
Game one I lose somehow (fuzzy). Game two I beat him down (Aether Vial is fucking nuts!). Game three I get him to one but he pulls it out.

Match 4: Tombstalker/Tarmagoyf (black Green Beats)
Game one he pops a tombstalker with his Dark Confidant and it hurts. It hurts to the pain of 8 damage. You don't come back against slivers with that sort of topdeck. Game two I overextend into a damnation, followed by two Engineered Plagues. I had sideboarded out my Harmonic Slivers but he had a Dark Confidant on the table and was at 4 life. It took forever for him to win that game and I ceded when I was at 5 life. Game three I was going to win but we ran out of time.

Match 5: Life from the Loam
Game one I again pull out the quick early rush. He almost holds me off to start pulling it out but my slivers take to the air. Additionally, a clutch crystalline sliver keeps his Maze of Ith from stopping the rush.

Game two I start off with turn one Aether Vial, turn 2 Planar Void. Good Fucking Game. At one point, he tries to wasteland my Mutavault, I Vial in a Crystalline sliver and activate the Mutavault :) Another time I vial in a Hibernation Sliver, put damage on the stack, and bounce the dying sliver but still do massive damage to him.

Match 6: Counter Balance
I take game one but never saw the counterbalance. The sliver beatdown is too much. Game two he gets a goyf out and keeps my slivers from getting too big. Game three he goes double Goyf and I didn't have enough pump slivers to pull it out.

Match 7: Dredge
He wins games one and two handily. I was very tired at this point being as it's like 7 PM, I've been up since ~5:30 AM and got no sleep the night before and thus I punt game two and drop.

Analysis of the deck:
I love hibernation sliver. It is as crucial to the deck as Crystalline Sliver. I was very tempted to cut it and run UWg because I was having problems getting black mana, and I am happy I stumbled along with the Hibernation Slivers. Next time, 4x Hibernation Sliver!

Brainstorm gets better with more fetch lands. I think that Ponder > Brainstorm if you don't have enough fetch lands (4 isn't enough). As the tournament went on, I liked having brainstorm more and more. I also got better at using it.

Planar Void is nuts. I wish I had 4 copies of them (I can only find two in my house, I bought boxes of Urza so they are here somewhere).

I wish I had Worship in my sideboard. With Crystalline Sliver, Mutavault, and Hibernation Sliver, it would be nuts. Especially vs blue decks that are unable to wipe the board it would help at times.

Muscle Sliver is meh. To be honest, the Muscle Sliver is good but I don't know if it is worth running green lands for it. I do love the Harmonic Sliver so it might be worth keeping the green in, and if you do the Muscle Sliver is worth it.

Meddling Mage is the shit. You can keep them off of their sideboard cards with it (or shut down their deck) and it works sorta like Crystalline Sliver. Plus you can vial it in and it's in the primary colors, which is very nice.

The last card I want to talk about is Eladamri's Call. I don't know if it is worth it, but the two times I had it in hand it was nice to try to fetch the sliver of choice. I wonder if you could run Gemhide Slivers and use your slivers as lands?

I found mana issues, but I think it was a lack of fetch lands. I dislike how all the lands produce blue and it might be nice to have a WB or WG land in there as a splash.

Charlatan

03-10-2009, 08:05 AM

What I ended up playing at GP: Chicago

Analysis of the deck:

Muscle Sliver is meh. To be honest, the Muscle Sliver is good but I don't know if it is worth running green lands for it. I do love the Harmonic Sliver so it might be worth keeping the green in, and if you do the Muscle Sliver is worth it.

What? I mean, out of goblins, all tribals run 8 lords, and the best thing about slivers is that the deck has 2cc lords. Slivers pump like bitches. I would never cut this card out

The last card I want to talk about is Eladamri's Call. I don't know if it is worth it, but the two times I had it in hand it was nice to try to fetch the sliver of choice. I wonder if you could run Gemhide Slivers and use your slivers as lands?

And what about cyclisliver. I don't remember the card name right now, but you could have an uncounterable 3 mana tutor to play with your vial.

I found mana issues, but I think it was a lack of fetch lands. I dislike how all the lands produce blue and it might be nice to have a WB or WG land in there as a splash.
No, you are wrong, you have to make all your lands a possible island or cut daze. U can test with scrub or savanah and see how short of island you are gonna be at some MU.

Glorfindel

03-10-2009, 09:03 AM

And what about cyclisliver. I don't remember the card name right now, but you could have an uncounterable 3 mana tutor to play with your vial.

Homing sliver. However, it costs 2R (why? What has red to do with tutoring) so without a Vial you can't get it into play.

Charlatan

03-10-2009, 09:09 AM

Homing sliver. However, it costs 2R (why? What has red to do with tutoring) so without a Vial you can't get it into play.

Homing Sliver 2R
Current Rules Text:
Each Sliver card in each player's hand has slivercycling 3.
Slivercycling 3 (3, Discard this card: Search your library for a Sliver card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.)

Plz, read the card, homing sliver have itself cycling for 3. There is no need to be in play!

JediCheese

03-10-2009, 11:28 AM

I think Homing Sliver is a mistake compared to Eladamri's Call. 2 CC vs 3 CC is huge and I can't ever play Homing Sliver. If you play WUb, I think homing sliver is definitely called for.

The thing I wish the deck had was some sort of card draw. You have the standard package of brainstorm/fetchland but you only get one card a turn. I found that you don't have a hand after turn 4-5.

With the Muscle/Sinew Sliver, I want to see two of them in a game. I think the 4/4 point is where many decks can't handle the sliver rush anymore. If I can't pump the gold slivers to 4/4, I really don't care to try to make my manabase any weaker. Unless I was racing a tombstalker or Goyf, I always won the race.

If I was to rank the slivers in the deck from strongest to weakest:
Hibernation Sliver
Crystalline Sliver
Sinew Sliver
Winged Sliver
Muscle Sliver
Harmonic Sliver

Hibernation and Crystalline sliver are both tier one slivers. Sinew beats out Muscle due to the color issues. Winged sliver I found was another sleeper hit in most matchups because flying either stopped them from blocking or allowed you to trade creatures with their flying creatures. Harmonic was pretty good and when I found him I always had a use for him but you don't want more than one in a game.

Charlatan

03-11-2009, 08:27 AM

I think Homing Sliver is a mistake compared to Eladamri's Call. 2 CC vs 3 CC is huge and I can't ever play Homing Sliver. If you play WUb, I think homing sliver is definitely called for.

I didn't get your point. I don't need that this deck need a sliver tutor, but if ran one sliver fetcher, it would homing. 3cc for an uncounterable tutor isn't bad. You may only use ir after knowing your opponents decks.

Sinew beats out Muscle due to the color issues.
Do you want to cut down from 8 to 4 lords effects?
And worst, you want to cut green? no grip or harmonic in your SB?

jazzykat

03-17-2009, 06:22 PM

Howdy, I am actually interested in a well rounded sb card vs. this deck in UWBG. The obvious answer is Engineered plague, but with 8 pump effects and crystaline making spot removal dead I think it is more of a speed bump. I am thinking that EE may make the best card vs. slivers because they can kill multiple ones and also knock out vial. I also play 2xTrinket Mage MD so I can dig up explosives.

Wrath is obviously awesome but I want to keep my answers flexible and with a low cc.

Thanks!

Volt

03-17-2009, 06:47 PM

You can't kill slivers. Don't even try.

3duece

03-17-2009, 08:12 PM

EE and deed work quite well against slivers. Meathooks is light on the countermagic and heavy on the 2cc.

ScatmanX

03-17-2009, 08:26 PM

There are lists though, if I recall right, that pack Stifle to solve those problems...

3duece

03-17-2009, 09:37 PM

jazzykat

03-17-2009, 11:26 PM

True. Jazzykat, I assume you're playing NLU with a trinket package? Your priority is to keep vial off the table and assemble countertop. Countertop and an EE at 1 on the board will be tough for a meathooks player to fight through, even with stifle.

You sir have hit the nail on the head. I am tweaking a NLU for my meta though so I need to be able to smack down a lot of burn/discard type decks which has warranted a melding of the GP 1st and 2nd place lists for my particular situation.

Honestly, if they don't have vial I am more or less happy. Crystaline sliver is a total bummer but I'll at least have a chance to counter it. I suppose hibernation sliver aint that great for me either but I have my dudes and they can have theirs...

Pinder

03-18-2009, 03:03 AM

True. Jazzykat, I assume you're playing NLU with a trinket package? Your priority is to keep vial off the table and assemble countertop. Countertop and an EE at 1 on the board will be tough for a meathooks player to fight through, even with stifle.

In all honesty this is pretty true. Every single one of Slivers' threats is 2CC (with the exception of Harmonic, although I doubt that counts as too much of a threat), so CB/Top is a beating. Vial is our way around it, but if you answer that too, things can get rough. I mean, Slivers has Grip out of the board and can save countermagic for Counterbalance or EE (being that all of their creatures are typically bigger than yours, and Swords can answer a Goyf that's too big), but staring down CB/Top is not a fun proposition for 2drop.dec.

Just my 2 cents.

AcidFiend

03-18-2009, 09:41 PM

Hi all,

I know a lot of work is being done by you guys to make this competitive as possible, but I am on a budget. Is there such a thing as a budget version of the deck? I would be building it more for fun than for the competitive scene.

The most expensive part seems to be the lands, so if I cut down to two colours, I could run more basics/buy less duals. I have Force/StP/Mutavault already, combined with Winged & Crystalline being my faves, I figured White/Blue could work. It also makes Daze more powerful as you have more islands, and I can afford to run more Mutavaults as my mana requirements aren't as intensive. With the added consistency/4 Mutas, I thought Standstill might fit in too (I know thats been discussed a lot already tho).

4 Sidewinder
4 Talon
4 Sinew
4 Winged
4 Crystalline

4 Aether Vial
4 Stp
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Standstill

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Plains
4 Mutavault

If you had to run a 2 colour version, what would you suggest?

TheLion

03-20-2009, 02:41 PM

4 Sidewinder
4 Talon
4 Sinew
4 Winged
4 Crystalline

4 Aether Vial
4 Stp
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Standstill

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Plains
4 Mutavault

If you had to run a 2 colour version, what would you suggest?

Definately add Brainstorm and maybe Plated Sliver, too. I think they are too obvious to dismiss.
Though I don't know which is better: Plated or Sidewinder!?
I'd cut 1-2 Talon and 1-2 Winged, since their abilities do not stack. Also 20 lands maybe are too many in a deck with such a low curve and Vial.

Pinder

03-20-2009, 03:29 PM

Though I don't know which is better: Plated or Sidewinder!?

Depends on what you're going for. If you want to turn your guys sideways as much a possible, Sidewinder is great at getting guys through (especially when they stack), but if you're planning on blocking ever, Plated Sliver is your man.

I'd have to say that Plated comes out on top in this particular comparison, though, because it rocks on defense and still has a use when you're attacking (i.e., your guys not dying), whereas Sidewinder only works well if your guys are sideways. That said, I see no reason not to run both if you're dropping to just two colors. You can make a decent substitute for Muscle via Sidewinder, because although you get through for less actual damage, in creature combat, giving their dude some multiple of -1/-1 is essentially the same as your guy having some multiple of +1/+1. Especially if your guy already has some multiple of +0/+1.

And I agree that you could probably stand to cut down on Talon and Winged, because you only need one of them in play to be absurdly useful, and they're not really that great in multiples.

4eak

03-21-2009, 03:21 AM

If I had to go 2-color, I'd probably adjust the deck further.

I just don't like Sidewinder or Talon that much. Go plated, absolutely. +1 Toughness is round the clock, and there are just too many situations where you need that unconditional boost.

I also haven't liked Brainstorm so much in this deck either (still a strong choice, but I'm not convinced it is the best). The smoothing isn't as necessary, and the functions aren't disparate or lacking in proper proportions to justify Brainstorm as an auto-include.

Try this:

Creatures: 18
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew
3 Mirror Entity (don't care that it costs 3, you need the fat)
3 Winged
4 Crystalline

Other: 22
4 Aether Vial
4 Stp
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Standstill
2 SDT (open slot really)

Land: 20
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Wasteland (you should guarantee that you can win the Standstill race without Vial if you only have 2 colors)
4 Mutavault

It wouldn't be hard to squeeze in Brainstorm or Stifle either.

peace,
4eak

Volt

03-21-2009, 08:05 PM

Concallesco

03-24-2009, 06:10 PM

I have some questions about this deck. I am comparing this to the most similar deck possible, which would be merfolk. Now in comparing the advantages and disadvantages of both, we arrive at the conclusion that this deck is more aggressive, and better abuses Aether Vial, while the fishes are more stable mana-wise and better abuses Daze. I believe this comparison is accurate.

Now, my question would be, does the increased instability of mana compensate for the increased aggro? And if it does, this deck is obviously less aggressive than the other vial-aggro deck, goblins, a deck with better mana stability also, but even less control.

So we have, basically, on the aggro-control -> aggro spectrum:

Merfolk -> Slivers -> Goblins

So what advantages does this deck offer over the other two, one of which also has the benefit of being nearly CB-proof at the cost of Goyf vulnerability, the other of which has the benefit of also being mana-strong both offensively and defensively, and shares the awesomeness of evasion? Is it a meta call? What if this was in an unknown or highly varied meta?

Or perhaps I just really love slivers and am looking for a logical (i.e. not just "I love slivers") reason to play them... who knows?

4eak

03-25-2009, 11:53 AM

@ Concallesco

So what advantages does this deck offer over the other two

Crystalline Sliver -- every other tribal deck would sell their left testicle for the card. It protects itself and everything else along with it at a broken cost.
The deck is easier to play than the others, and so there's a wider viable piloting audience.
Extremely consistent, and the creatures get big very quickly.
Swords to Plowshares is always pretty amazing in this format.
The deck is defensively superior on the ground as well, and can play defense where the other two can't.

I consider it the least of the 3 decks. It doesn't answer combo well enough, and it doesn't mold to metagames very well. Still, dude, its slivers. The deck is still very good.

peace,
4eak

JohnnyCage

03-25-2009, 01:57 PM

@ Concallesco

Crystalline Sliver -- every other tribal deck would sell their left testicle for the card. It protects itself and everything else along with it at a broken cost.
The deck is easier to play than the others, and so there's a wider viable piloting audience.
Extremely consistent, and the creatures get big very quickly.
Swords to Plowshares is always pretty amazing in this format.
The deck is defensively superior on the ground as well, and can play defense where the other two can't.

I consider it the least of the 3 decks. It doesn't answer combo well enough, and it doesn't mold to metagames very well. Still, dude, its slivers. The deck is still very good.

peace,
4eak

The deck does answer combo, you run the 8 counter suite of every other control deck and something they don't, a clock. The deck just wins against goblins, helen keller could win the goblin matchup blindfolded. It's that good, test it. Fish, fish are good, very good, but you will win that matchup, because you are faster, and you can answer their lord and they can't answer your pumps. Plus hibernation sliver is the best guy in the deck, the things you can do with him are just nasty...for example, infinite goyf blocks to buy time to grow, and then your guys trade and still live, survive board wipe, extend far on combo then bounce him to pitch to force. He is just so much utility that he gives this tribe something the others don't have. Answers...I have played all three decks. and honestly won tournaments with all three. But maybe im biased because all fish did was win me a foil fetch and this deck won me a 40 set. P.S. lets get off talking budget, we should be focused on becoming optimal not making the deck cheaper.

jazzykat

03-25-2009, 02:40 PM

JohnnyCage

03-26-2009, 01:33 AM

@Johny: Perhaps you could share with us, your playset of duals winning list. Having never played this deck, (really looking up it as a gimmick type deck instead of a serious contender) the more I learn about it and see it in action the more it looks "For Real" at least in my meta which is so ridden with gay ass spot removal.decs that I would love to have crystalline, and hibernation to help vs. them.

Why has this deck fallen out of favor. I've seen it mentioned before that it is a competitive casual deck, but with non-basic on a bit of the decline it looks pretty darn solid. I guess Tarmogoyf obsoleted this or something....

Goyf doesn't beat the deck, your three winged slivers and 8 pumps make it easy to play through. Not to mention you have swords which are never dead. They have cards to just stare at. The deck is a contender, vial is what gives you the edge in so many matchups. Here is my list, any questions shoot them towards me and i will answer:

Lands:
3x Mutavault
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted delta
1x Island
1x Scrubland-still testing
2x Tropical Island
2xUnderground Sea
3x Tundra

Creatures:
4x Sinew Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Crystalline Sliver
4x Hibernation Sliver
3x Winged Sliver

Spells:
4x Aether Vial
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Swords to plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder

SB: This is the best board for unknown meta
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Krosan Grip
3x Blue elemental Blast
1x Harmonic Sliver
2x Stifle
3x Darkheart Sliver- So good...

So there it is, now lets discuss...

4eak

03-26-2009, 02:53 AM

@ JohnnyCage

The deck does answer combo, you run the 8 counter suite of every other control deck and something they don't, a clock.

Read carefully: I didn't say it doesn't answer combo at all, I said it doesn't answer it well enough. If Counterslivers also ran Stifle or CB (specifically in the main), then I'd be willing to say it could reasonably answer combo well enough. For now, Daze is easy to play around, and Force is easily answered by Chant/Duress/Blasts. The damage curve of the deck rises exponentially, yes, but it isn't actually that impressive in the most critical turns of the combo match: turns 1, 2 and 3. Counterslivers pressure is good against most decks, but it isn't formidable against combo. Only Sligh and Burn can boast a consistently destabilizing damage curve to AdN (most have IGG though). Counterslivers wins against bad combo players, not good ones.

On the other hand, Merfolk actually has enough disruption to say it has a real game against Combo:

Spellstutter Sprite
Cursecatcher
Daze
Force of Will

The deck just wins against goblins, helen keller could win the goblin matchup blindfolded. It's that good, test it.

Hence statements 2-5 in my previous post.

peace,
4eak

Volt

03-26-2009, 08:53 AM

It's true. Countersliver does tend to be a little weak against combo, compared to Merfolk and Thresh/Thrash. You need to devote 4-7 slots of your sideboard to beating combo, if you expect to run into it.

@Johnny: Very nice 4-color build.

Side note: I've been having some fun lately with a UWb build that contains Standstill, Wasteland, and Mutavault.

4eak

03-26-2009, 09:14 AM

I'm actually curious why anyone who plays man-lands and Vial would not run Standstill. I can't think of a good reason. The matches where Standstill may not be amazing are matches that should already fairly strong for this deck (and often remains powerful in those matches); Standstill many matches that aren't as strong though.

Standstill has been one of the best reasons to play the fish/blue-based beatdown strategy in my experience.

peace,
4eak

Volt

03-26-2009, 09:23 AM

JohnnyCage

03-26-2009, 12:59 PM

Exactly.

I dinked around with Standstill in the deck for a few months, with mixed results. Something was missing. I finally bit the bullet and shaved a couple of islands and other cards out of the deck to fit in Wastelands. Voila! It works much better.

It's still a work in progress, but:

4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Undergound Sea
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

I tested the shit out of vial and i still don't like it, slivers is a fast aggro deck with an element of control to make sure it gets there, adding standstill is just trying to do too many things in my opinion.

Volt

03-26-2009, 01:29 PM

I tested the shit out of vial and i still don't like it,

I assume you meant to say Standstill above?

I hear what you're saying about "trying to do many things." There's certainly nothing wrong with employing the strategy of "Play as many pump slivers as I can, counter one or two things, and try to steamroll my opponent before he gets set up." That's exactly what we had in mind when we built the original UWg MeatHooks deck. The UWgb version works on much the same principal, although it trades a smidgen of speed for a little more resistance to removal.

I'm just dinking around with this UWb list, trying to see if I can come up with something that works. The one I just posted is better than previous attempts I've made, but I'm not sure I'm entirely satisfied with it.

4eak

03-26-2009, 01:36 PM

@ JohnnyCage

I tested the shit out of vial and i still don't like it, slivers is a fast aggro deck with an element of control to make sure it gets there, adding standstill is just trying to do too many things in my opinion.

You are confused if you think Counterslivers is honestly a true aggro deck that is just splashing for control. You yourself play more spells that aren't aggro cards than you do creatures and direct win conditions.

Counterslivers is fish, and by fish, I mean a deck with a solid set of creatures and blue-based disruption. Counterslivers is honestly competing with Merfolk, not Goblins, for the reactive aggro-control role it plays. Sure, it is aggro-control with more creatures than Legacy is used to seeing since the advent of 12-creature.Goyf-Control.dec, but it is still very much an aggro-control Fish deck.

Standstill is a classic aggro-control/fish card; Standstill has a clear place in any deck that can drop a threat, control for a brief moment, and play standstill while you have the board advantage.

Why is Standstill so good?

'Standstill's ability to solidify the gamestate is very powerful (as its name would suggest). A resolved Standstill takes a snapshot of the gamestate, and makes it so that each passing turn puts your opponent in a worse and worse position as you generate advantage under the standstill. That snapshot upon Standstill's resolution is the best gamestate an opponent can hope to achieve when Standstill eventually triggers in your favor. If they wait, then your advantage only improves upon that snapshot when Standstill triggers in your favor. They are damned if they break it early, but even more damned if they don't.'

Standstill is one of the reasons Fish can be successful in Legacy. Essentially, Standstill warps you through time, to either an identical or improved gamestate, and it generates raw card advantage. It is exactly the sort of thing that Counterslivers needs to remain competitive.

Standstill is better than both Brainstorm and Ponder (and you have both in your listed deck) in Counterslivers. Cantrips are good at filling in the gaps between superior cards of disparate functions so that you don't have run inferior versions of each function. Counterslivers really doesn't have a great deal of functional difference between cards to easily justify running so many cantrips. Standstill on the other hand is straight CA -- A-call at 2cc. You should be playing at least 3x Standstill before you start to add Brainstorm (and that's coming from someone with a hard-on for Brainstorm...I don't take it lightly). I'd try replacing those Ponders with Standstill in your deck.

peace,
4eak

TheLion

03-26-2009, 02:38 PM

Just for discussions: This is the "best" Countersliver list, which made Top128 in GP Chicago:

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Stifle
2 Ponder

4 Aether Vial
2 Psionic Blast

3 Mutavault
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Island

Sideboard:
3 Submerge
3 Krosan Grip
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Hydroblast

The Psionic Blasts are at least interesting.
The mana base raises the question: Why would I run Delta over Strand, since Strand can fetch the 1 Plains, too?

Does anybody happen to know, which place it made under the Top128?

Source: http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/?page_id=443

JohnnyCage

03-26-2009, 02:46 PM

@ JohnnyCage

You are confused if you think Counterslivers is honestly a true aggro deck that is just splashing for control. You yourself play more spells that aren't aggro cards than you do creatures and direct win conditions.

Counterslivers is fish, and by fish, I mean a deck with a solid set of creatures and blue-based disruption. Counterslivers is honestly competing with Merfolk, not Goblins, for the reactive aggro-control role it plays. Sure, it is aggro-control with more creatures than Legacy is used to seeing since the advent of 12-creature.Goyf-Control.dec, but it is still very much an aggro-control Fish deck.

Standstill is a classic aggro-control/fish card; Standstill has a clear place in any deck that can drop a threat, control for a brief moment, and play standstill while you have the board advantage.

Why is Standstill so good?

'Standstill's ability to solidify the gamestate is very powerful (as its name would suggest). A resolved Standstill takes a snapshot of the gamestate, and makes it so that each passing turn puts your opponent in a worse and worse position as you generate advantage under the standstill. That snapshot upon Standstill's resolution is the best gamestate an opponent can hope to achieve when Standstill eventually triggers in your favor. If they wait, then your advantage only improves upon that snapshot when Standstill triggers in your favor. They are damned if they break it early, but even more damned if they don't.'

Standstill is one of the reasons Fish can be successful in Legacy. Essentially, Standstill warps you through time, to either an identical or improved gamestate, and it generates raw card advantage. It is exactly the sort of thing that Counterslivers needs to remain competitive.

Standstill is better than both Brainstorm and Ponder (and you have both in your listed deck) in Counterslivers. Cantrips are good at filling in the gaps between superior cards of disparate functions so that you don't have run inferior versions of each function. Counterslivers really doesn't have a great deal of functional difference between cards to easily justify running so many cantrips. Standstill on the other hand is straight CA -- A-call at 2cc. You should be playing at least 3x Standstill before you start to add Brainstorm (and that's coming from someone with a hard-on for Brainstorm...I don't take it lightly). I'd try replacing those Ponders with Standstill in your deck.

peace,
4eak

Ha ha yes i meant standstill, sorry bout that, but the reason ponder and brainstorm are better is because i dont believe meathooks is a reactionary deck, it is aggressive, in fish you can keep a one bob hand with spells, in meathooks you wouldn't want to do such, our deck functions by growing exponentially unlike any fish, plus ponder and brainstorm enable us to find vial turn one and be able to cast it turn two daze proof, thats the true power of the deck, the vial, and all the incredible tricks it enables us to do. Perhaps we have different views on the deck. All i know is i have been very successful playing it the way i do, it won me gencon after all.

JohnnyCage

03-26-2009, 02:49 PM

Volt

03-26-2009, 02:53 PM

There wasn't a single good meathooks player in chicago and this list is terrible, hibernation sliver is never less then a four of.

The first point is probably true, and the second point is definitely true.

All i know is i have been very successful playing it the way i do, it won me gencon after all.

So, you're that guy. Way to represent the slivers! Also, thank you for opening our eyes to Mutavault. Lists very much like yours had been proposed before, but the key distinction was your inclusion of Mutavault.

I think that just like there's Thrash and Thresh, there can be gradations in the aggressiveness of Countersliver decks. I think lists like my UWb build above just haven't really been tried yet, so it's hard to judge how successful they might be.

JohnnyCage

03-26-2009, 03:51 PM

The first point is probably true, and the second point is definitely true.

So, you're that guy. Way to represent the slivers! Also, thank you for opening our eyes to Mutavault. Lists very much like yours had been proposed before, but the key distinction was your inclusion of Mutavault.

I think that just like there's Thrash and Thresh, there can be gradations in the aggressiveness of Countersliver decks. I think lists like my UWb build above just haven't really been tried yet, so it's hard to judge how successful they might be.
Yes, i definately agree, i tested some of your earlier list with standstill and didn't care but that was before wasteland, i just feel like without the turn two daze proof vial the deck kinda sputters. But i definately agree their are degrees to every deck. And mutavualt was so good that entire tourney, i couldn't believe it until every game he rocked someone, him and hibernation. Vialing in hibernation and using mutavault to activate self and bounce in response to waste was amazing. My favorite play that entire tourney was round 3 vs a good burn list and player. He saw i had one card in hand and a hibernation, 2 pump and a crystalline, im at three and he has three land and a fireblast, he would die next turn being at 7, he fireblast me then extends his hand, i bounce my crystalline and swords my hibernation to live by one life. I vial in the crystalline eot and win next turn. That game still gives me goosebumps, one of the closest i played all day. After that point i knew hibernation was gonna be a four of. Just too much utility. Ahh, the good old days lol.

Volt

03-28-2009, 09:31 PM

Okay, I officially give up on Standstill. No matter what I do, I just can't come up with a satisfactory list involving that card and a bunch of slivers. I mean, it does okay against certain things, but overall it doesn't seem to do as much for the deck as running something like Ponders or more slivers in those slots. I will say that I am finding Wasteland to be a satisfactory addition to the deck, though.

Taedae

03-30-2009, 02:34 PM

What about using Sedge Sliver instead of Muscle? Its one more but also adds B: regenerate to all slivers. Also i dont understand why trickbind isnt in this, sure its one more, but its at ubah speed (split second)

Volt

03-30-2009, 05:37 PM

What about using Sedge Sliver instead of Muscle? Its one more but also adds B: regenerate to all slivers.

Because it costs one more and regeneration is a sucky ability. Also, the +1/+1 bonus is conditional, unlike Muscle/Sinew.

Also i dont understand why trickbind isnt in this, sure its one more, but its at ubah speed (split second)

Because it costs 2 instead of 1.

Pinder

03-30-2009, 06:38 PM

Because it costs one more and regeneration is a sucky ability. Also, the +1/+1 bonus is conditional, unlike Muscle/Sinew.

Also, it forces you into the two weakest colors for Slivers to provide a marginal benefit. As far as useful slivers go, U>W>G>B>R. There's no reason to force yourself into black and red unless you're getting way more than Sedge Sliver has to offer.

Volt

04-06-2009, 12:14 AM

Mini Tournament Report

I had a rare opportunity to play in a real live Legacy tournament today. Don (a.k.a. AngryTroll) was in town this weekend and wanted to hit one of the local shops (Other Worlds in Portland, OR) for their weekly EDH and Legacy tournaments. He asked me if I wanted to tag along. I eagerly accepted, since I've been itching to try out my latest EDH 5c-control deck (general = Child of Alara) and Legacy Countersliver deck.

There were 9 people for the EDH tournament, so we split into 3 pods of 3 players. The 3 pod winners would then play a 2nd round for the marbles. I won my pod pretty easily, and Don won his, and some dude named Ethan won the other pod. We only had about an hour to finish before the Legacy tournament was to start, so we shuffled up and started playing. Fast forward an hour... Don and I were on the verge of knocking Ethan out of the game, and I had the Banefire in hand that would have finished him off, but I offered to just call it a 3-way draw. Everyone agreed and we split the meager store credit. Onto the Legacy tournament...

As mentioned above, I played Countersliver. I've been tinkering with :u::w::b: variations for a while, trying to find a competitive list that didn't include forests and Muscle Slivers. Along the way, I did a lot of experimentation with Standstill, Wasteland, Talon Sliver, and maindeck Stifles and Spell Snares. There were a few false positives along the way, but I eventually found all of those cards to be unsatisfactory. The deck didn't need more disruption, or even card drawing. It needed more speed, and it needed something to make the slivers more combat-worthy. Finally, I went back to an old mainstay from the original :u::w::g: MeatHooks List: Plated Sliver (!) I had forgotten how good this guy is. I never thought he would play all that well in a UWb list, but it turns out it was just what the deck needed. So, here's the list I played at the tournament:

"Esper MeatHooks"

3 Mutavault
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island

4 Aether Vial

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

SB:
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Hydroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Vindicate
2 Perish
1 Enshare

Round 1 vs Ted (the Red) with It's the Fear

In the first game, I get out a quick Plated, Crystalline, and Sinew and start beating. I counter his first Intuition. He casts another one on the next turn, which resolves. He gets a Volrath Stronghold, Eternal Witness, and Engineered Explosives. I let him keep the Stronghold. He's unable to assemble the pieces in time before slivers beat him down.

In the second game, he keeps an opening hand with 1 land, Top, and Brainstorm. He doesn't find a 2nd land until turn 4, and slivers run him over in short order.

Round 2 vs Gyula with UGR CounterTop Control

He mulls to 5 in game 1. I keep an awkward opening hand with 1 land and 2 cantrips. I takes me a couple of tries to find a 2nd land and get things rolling, but the free Hymn to Tourach proves decisive.

In game 2, we reach sort of a standstill with a couple of goyfs in his side, and a Crystalline, Plated, Sinew on my side. He gets tricksy by Krosan Gripping his own Top, making his goyfs too big for my slivers to block.

In game 3, he establishes the CounterTop soft lock, but I have Aether Vial in play. Fortunately, he doesn't find Krosan Grip in time, and I'm able to eke through enough sliver damage to take down the match.

Round 3 vs Don with Dreadstill

Before the match, I jokingly try to get Don to tell me what he's playing. I knew he was trying to decide between Dreadstill and TEES (Elf Survival with Natural Order & Progenitus) before the tournament, but I didn't know which one he went with. I tell him I figure he's probably playing TEES, since he's been like a kid in a candy story ever since he put that deck together. Don's love for Survival of the Fittest is almost as unhealthy as my love for slivers. As we're shuffling up for game 1, he glumly announces "I haven't cast Natural Order all day!" At that point, I know with 100% certainty that he's playing Dreadstill. I know all Don's little tricks.

In game 1, I remember Dazing a Standstill, Forcing a Counterbalance, and Plowing a Dreadnought, which put him at 30 life. Meanwhile, I vial in a veritable sliver army and beat him down before he can recover.

In game 2, he resolves a Dreadnought, which naturally makes all my slivers look puny. I have a couple of turns to find removal, but it eludes me.

In game 3, I resolve a turn 1 Aether Vial. He EE's it away a few turns later, but by then it's too late. Sliver beats carry me home.

Round 4 vs Gary with some janky Master of Etherium deck

This was my easiest match of the day by far. All I had to do was kill a couple of Master of Etheriums and apply sliver beats.

So, I went 4-0 matches, 8-2 games, capping off a pretty good day.

kicks_422

04-06-2009, 08:06 AM

4 Burrenton Forge-Tender and 4 Hydroblast in the SB? That's alot of red hate. You were expecting a lot of Zoo/Sligh/Burn?

Volt

04-06-2009, 09:31 AM

4 Burrenton Forge-Tender and 4 Hydroblast in the SB? That's alot of red hate. You were expecting a lot of Zoo/Sligh/Burn?

My sideboard was terrible. I expected Burn and Sligh, but didn't run into either. The Forge-Tenders double as Ichorid hate, btw. I ended up not siding in any of the blasts or forge-tenders all day. Instead, I ran into 3 CounterTop decks and found myself wishing for the Annuls that I cut from my sideboard at the last minute. Oh well. Somehow I mised my way through.

Seriously

04-08-2009, 01:08 AM

whats everyones opinion of mirror entity and meddling mage in this deck ?

Pinder

04-08-2009, 01:29 AM

whats everyones opinion of mirror entity and meddling mage in this deck ?

Meddling Mage: I guess, in the board. I almost like Teeg or Canonist better, though.

Mirror Entity: No. Just...no. You think it's going to be really cool (and who can blame you? It looks and sounds cool), but then you play with it and it just ends up being uncool. Feel free to do your own testing, but I've never found this card to be better than other options you have available to you.

Of course, to be fair, I tested it a while back. With Merfolk actually being relevant now, having a dude on your side who is a Sliver and a Merfolk would be kind of nutty (especially when he can turn your whole team into gargantuan Sliver Merfolk, even for a measly 1 mana). I don't know that Merfolk is so hard that you'd actually need him, though, and that's still sort of mana intensive.

Volt

04-08-2009, 01:57 PM

Meddling Mage in the maindeck is hard to justify unless you have a very peculiar metagame that you happen to know like the back of your hand. For what it's worth, I still play it in my sideboard quite often, although I'm always torn between it and Ethersworn Canonist. Canonist is definitely better against storm combo, but Mage has a wider application. It's rarely amazing, but it's versatile.

As Pinder said, Mirror Entity is tantalizing, but simply not good enough for the maindeck. It's too mana-intensive. You generally have to tap 3 mana to get a significant benefit from it. That's especially problematic now that most people are (rightly) playing Mutavaults in Countersliver. Most of the time, you would be better off spending that mana to activate your Mutavaults. The idea of running Mirror Entity in the sideboard as a foil to Merfolk is an interesting one. It's also a decent sideboard option for the mirror match. I still think Ensnare is a better option in both cases, though. That card is very underrated.

If you have slots left over in whatever Countersliver build you're working on, consider Plated Sliver. I've recently had my eyes re-opened to how good this guy is. Don't underrate the Plate!

Volt

04-19-2009, 11:54 PM

Another mini tournament report:

I once again made my way over to Other Worlds Games in Portland, OR today to play in the weekly Legacy tournament, and I also once again played UWb MeatHooks:

3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Aether Vial

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

SB:
4 Annul
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Meddling Mage
2 Submerge
1 Ensnare

Round 1 vs JB with Burning Bridges

JB was playing more of a Sligh deck than a Burn deck, actually. In any case, I withstood an early rush in game 1, and established good board position with a small crew of untargetable slivers. Then, JB dropped an Ensnaring Bridge, leaving no cards in his hand. I didn't see that coming! I never found a counterspell the whole game anyway, so there wasn't anything I could have done about it.

For games 2 & 3, I boarded in my Annuls and hoped I would be able to keep Ensnaring Bridge off the board. Long story short, I did. I came back to win the match 2-1, helped along by JB mulling to 4 in game 3.

2-1, 1-0

Round 2 vs John with Goblins

John was running a pretty solid mono-red list, aside from one slightly odd card choice: Skirk Fire Marshal (http://magiccards.info/evg/en/44.html).

In the first game, I went Plated, Crystalline, Sinew, Winged, win. Pretty standard formula for beating Goblins.

For the 2nd and 3rd games, I boarded out my Hibernation Slivers for Burrenton Forge-Tenders.

In the 2nd game, I had to Force his turn 1 Lackey, but he followed up with a couple of Piledrivers, Warchief, Ringleader. I did my best, but I just couldn't catch up.

Game 3 was kind of odd. John amassed a huge army of goblins over the course of several turns. I held him off with a couple of Burrenton Forge-Tenders and some slivers for a while. I found Winged and started flying over John's goblin horde with a couple of slivers each turn. Finally, John was forced to alpha-strike with his formidable horde of little green dudes, but I had held back enough blockers to prevent him from doing lethal damage. I swung and won the next turn.

4-2, 2-0

Round 3 vs Ted "the Red" with Painter/Grindstone

Ted said he was playing a different list from EPIC's, but I couldn't tell what the difference was.

Both games went pretty much the same, with Ted keeping awkward hands and struggling to make his land-drops. I boarded in Annuls for game 2, which kept an EE from hitting board. I also tried to Annul a Counterbalance, but he was able to Force that one into play. It was too late, though, as I already had a small army of slivers in play that killed him before he could set up his combo.

6-2, 3-0

Round 4 vs Nick with Magistrate's Scepter/Clockspinning combo deck

Nick has a knack for building janky decks like this and taking them to local tournaments and doing well with them, as evidenced by his being 3-0 to this point. It's a blue/white deck with Wraths, StoPs, Cloudposts, Vesuvas, Exalted Angels, Cunning Wishes, Fact or Fictions, Magistrate's Scepters, Clockspinning, Mindslaver, Isochron Scepter, and a few other goodies. He attempts to win by making a ton of mana with Cloudposts and Vesuvas, then landing Magistrate's Scepter and Clockspinning to take infinite turns. It's janky as hell, which is why he usually ends up resorting to simple Exalted Angel beatdown after Wrathing the board. I don't get it, but somehow he wins with this pile. Until now...

I get out to a slow start in game 1. Nick counters my first few slivers. I finally land a Plated and a Winged, but I'm only dealing damage to him in a trickle. Nick eventually lands an Exalted Angel. I never find StoP, and Angel goes all the way.

In game 2, I'm a little quicker out of the gate. I counter one or two of Nick's spells while applying sliver beats. Nick scoops when he realizes he's too far behind.

Game 3 was interesting. While I accumulated a small sliver army, Nick got out multiple Cloudposts and Vesuvas, and landed a Magister's Scepter. At a crucial point in the game, he Fact or Fictioned at the end of my turn, which I Forced. He Fact or Fictioned again during his turn, and this one resolved. He revealed the following 5 cards: Cunning Wish, Force of Will, Force of Will, Cloudpost, and Isochron Scepter. I put a Cunning Wish and Force into one pile, and the other 3 cards into the other pile. He took the Cunning Wish pile. I felt like I was pretty much sunk at this point, because I was a couple turns away from killing him, and I had no gas in my hand. My only saving grace was that Nick didn't have another blue mana open to cast Cunning Wish yet. Nick passed the turn, and I drew my card... A Ponder. Okay, let's see what I can find. I cast Ponder and look at my top 3 cards. The 3rd card down is a Meddling Mage, which I had boarded in. I put the Mage on top, draw it, and play it. Knowing that I'm going to name Cunning Wish, Nick has no choice but to Force the Mage, pitching his Cunning Wish to Force of Will because he has no other blue cards in his hand. I swing with my slivers and bring his life total down to 3. Nick still has a chance to pull it out by topdecking a Clockspinning or Wrath, but he doesn't find either.

So, I finished 4-0 for the 2nd week in a row.

zer0style

04-20-2009, 12:15 AM

I promise I'll stop keeping one land hands that seem so good and then aren't against you, maybe then I'll be able to beat you one of these days :)

Volt

04-20-2009, 12:20 AM

I promise I'll stop keeping one land hands that seem so good and then aren't against you, maybe then I'll be able to beat you one of these days :)

You just gotta learn to use that shuffle effect when you Ponder and don't find land. :)

zer0style

04-20-2009, 12:23 AM

You just gotta learn to use that shuffle effect when you Ponder and don't find land. :)

Yeah lol, but top seemed soooo nice, you're right though, I should have shuffled, because I think I did have brainstorm in my hand too, which probably I would think gotten me another land, at least I would hope so with my luck lol.

Jujuhawk

04-20-2009, 12:27 AM

Seems like splashing black for a 2/2 is worse than splashing green for another lord. :\.

Volt

04-20-2009, 12:35 AM

Seems like splashing black for a 2/2 is worse than splashing green for another lord. :\.

It's an arguable point, but it's unfair to paint Hibernation Sliver simply as "a 2/2." It's pretty well-documented what it does for the deck.

Jujuhawk

04-20-2009, 12:36 AM

It's an arguable point, but it's unfair to paint Hibernation Sliver simply as "a 2/2." It's pretty well-documented what it does for the deck.

Obviously it provides inevitability when you're playing against sweepers, but it puts you so far behind, and it seems like playing a lord makes it so you don't have to overextend as much.

Volt

04-20-2009, 01:09 AM

Obviously it provides inevitability when you're playing against sweepers, but it puts you so far behind, and it seems like playing a lord makes it so you don't have to overextend as much.

You're still oversimplifying. Hibernation Sliver does more than provide inevitability against sweepers. In fact, I'd say that's the least important thing it does.

AngryTroll

04-20-2009, 01:53 AM

In some metagames, it might be right to run some Muscle Slivers alongside Hibernation. I don't think I'd sleeve up the deck without at least three Hibernation Slivers, though.

Crystalline, Winged, and Sinew are essential. Then I'd rank it Hibernation, Mutavault, Plated, Muscle.

xsockmonkeyx

04-20-2009, 01:53 AM

Good things about Hibernation Sliver (in order):

1) It lets you trade life for board position with advantageous blocking and attacking situations.

2) It further nullifies spot removal.

3) In conjunction with Aether Vial, it lets slivers fly in and out of play at instant speed, creating stack and virtual board advantage.

4) It makes sweepers suck a lot less.

5) It has a cool picture.

Volt

04-20-2009, 02:01 AM

RoddyVR

04-20-2009, 12:46 PM

I've been a sliver player for over 2 years, but only yesterday finaly remade my survival slivers into MeatHooks. Went UWg cause i dont have the Seas to have black. Lost 1 game (not match) in 5 rounds.

My biggest problem was definely the sideboarding... I thought it was hard to board with my survival slivers, but its dam near imposible with this deck. The two sets i sided out most were ponders and crystalline sliver, which frankly felt wrong the whole time... but there was nothing else to take out.

My list was as close to the "standard UWg" that i could get... replaced 4th daze with a spellsnare (only ever used it once, as FoW fodder, so didnt realy matter)...
land base was a bit screwed up:
8 blue fetches (borrowed 4 of them)
3 Tundra
3 Tropical
2 Island (i think one of them should have been a plains)
1 Mutavault (didnt have more, but not 100% sure which lands i should replace with them when i get them)

had 2 winged and 1 talon to go with the 12 pump and 4 crystals.

I suspect i only did this well, cause atleast 2 rounds (and maybe 3), my oponents' decks just decided not to do what they're supposed to.

The Dragon stompy player's friends seemed to think that i should have been an easy match for him, but it doesnt seem that horrible to me. Ye ofcourse if he goes Moon and trini turns 1 and 2, i'd have issues, but who wouldnt, and that's prety much a nuts draw for them. With the free counters i shouldnt be allowing that anyway, right? I know i only won so easily cause he got almost no business spells game 1 (last play was, i have 2 sinews, he casts dragon, putting him at 5, with only a tomb to pay for my daze, lol). And then he got stuck on two mountains game 2.

The countertop+bob+goyf deck lost one game to revealing a force for bob one game. But that just seems like a "whoever has just the right amount of control wins." prety much a gamble on both sides, they cant realy counter the slivers, cause then they wont have enough to fight our own counters, and then its a race of slivers vs goyfs.

Ichorid was a wierd match, i know i won game one "fairly" by countering his only draw+discard spells turns 1 and 2, but game two he just couldnt dredge for crap.

Ichorid #2 actualy did what its supposed to and killed me one game, but still lost 2 others.

What i think was pure UG thresh with progenitus lost to a dazed natural order. And to relic basicaly turning off threshold.

What I'm trying to figure out is if this tournament was just luck, and MeatHooks isnt THAT much better then my survival slivers, or if i realy should start trying to trade my survivals for blue fetches and mutavaults.

The store was closing soon by the time we got to top 4, so we split it, but i was considering making us play it out (if we'd had more time). The top 4 would have been me, the UG thresh with progenitus, armageddon stax and what i think was a Deed.dec BG board control or the 4th one "could" have been affinity cause they tied round 5 and the Deed.dec guy got in on tiebreakers. Was i just comepletely wrong to think that i had a chance?

While i'm stuck in the UWg version (the seas will take a long time to get), I'd like to have a harmonic sliver maindeck, with posibly an Eladamry's call to have a better chance of getting it. Someone here has probably already tried this list before, and if so what was your opinion of the 1ofs+eldy's call approach? Before i went to survival, Eladamry's Call was my tutor of choice, and i'd realy like to try to get back to it, even if a little.

17 lands
8 counter spells
16 one drop spells (vial, stp, cantrips)
12 pump slivers (or maybe replace one with a talon cause i hate goyf)
4 crystalline
1 Winged
1 Harmonic
1 Eladamry's call

Also, with the 8 cantrips, how keepable are 1 land hands? I had one game where i started with 1 land, brainstorm and ponder, and didnt find a second land. In my survival slivers i prety much automaticaly threw away 1 landers, but here it seems like that's probably not quite the right approach.
If you start with 1 land, a branstorm, ponder and a vial, what do you play turn 1? The vial and then hope to find land turn 2 or do you search for land first, and play vial turn 2?

Volt

04-20-2009, 01:51 PM

Also, with the 8 cantrips, how keepable are 1 land hands? I had one game where i started with 1 land, brainstorm and ponder, and didnt find a second land. In my survival slivers i prety much automaticaly threw away 1 landers, but here it seems like that's probably not quite the right approach.
If you start with 1 land, a branstorm, ponder and a vial, what do you play turn 1? The vial and then hope to find land turn 2 or do you search for land first, and play vial turn 2?

I just updated my primer with some information on deciding whether or not to keep one-land hands. See the "Play Tips" section.

xsockmonkeyx

04-21-2009, 02:48 AM

My biggest problem was definely the sideboarding... I thought it was hard to board with my survival slivers, but its dam near imposible with this deck. The two sets i sided out most were ponders and crystalline sliver, which frankly felt wrong the whole time... but there was nothing else to take out.

Daze is also another card that often comes out, especially if I know Im going to be on the draw. Sideboarding was always a predicament for me as well as the deck is packed as it is.

Also, with the 8 cantrips, how keepable are 1 land hands? I had one game where i started with 1 land, brainstorm and ponder, and didnt find a second land.

If it were with a a single Ponder I think a one land is keepable for this deck. A single Brainstorm not so much. At least with Ponder you have a way out when you rip 3 bad cards off the top. If Brainstorm is bad then you just double Time Walked in the wrong direction. I would definitely think a single land + Ponder + BS would be keepable, granted the land is blue. If you Turn 1 Ponder, turn 2 Brainstorm, you get to look at 7 cards, which is one more than a mulligan to 6 would give you.

In my survival slivers i prety much automaticaly threw away 1 landers, but here it seems like that's probably not quite the right approach.
If you start with 1 land, a branstorm, ponder and a vial, what do you play turn 1?

Brainstorm would be the worst play to make easily as you wont see as many cards as your average Ponder, and again, you are stuck should you whiff the flop. The choice is really between Ponder and Vial.

If you know you are playing against blue then you want to play the Vial first. You either get way ahead in the game when it sticks, or Hymn to Tourach them via the auto-FoW status of vial. Either is a power move on your part against blue and makes for the strongest opening.

Against decks where the uncounterability of vial is a non factor your only other concern would be how fast you can develop the board by dropping turn 1 vial vs turn 1 Ponder into a 2nd land.

Initially, you are looking to develop the board at the same speed with turn 1 Vial as you would by hitting your land with Ponder and proceeding to drop Slivers on your next turns. Lets say you play turn 1 vial and cantrip into your land the next turn. On turn 3 you can go vial in 2cc sliver, play 2cc sliver, giving you 2 dudes. This would be the same speed of development as hitting turn 1 land with your Ponder, then going turn 2 sliver, turn 3 sliver. From turn 3 on Vial is superior as you can drop 2 slivers a turn.

Im hard pressed to find a situation where I would want to not drop a turn 1 vial.

Volt

04-21-2009, 03:25 AM

Daze is also another card that often comes out, especially if I know Im going to be on the draw. Sideboarding was always a predicament for me as well as the deck is packed as it is.

Me too. There are almost no matchups where you have any obvious dead cards, other than StoP against combo. Most of the time, I end up siding out a series of one-ofs. One Daze, one Ponder, one Crystalline, one StoP, etc.

matamagos

04-22-2009, 07:16 AM

Has anyone tried Screeching sliver?

It's blue, it fits the mana curve and it can do nasty tricks facing counterbalance.

RoddyVR

04-22-2009, 09:12 AM

Has anyone tried Screeching sliver?

It's blue, it fits the mana curve and it can do nasty tricks facing counterbalance.

I tried Screeching in my survival build before switching to Meathooks (also had root and quick maindeck). It doesnt actualy work too well against countertop.
If they dont have top, then you milling em only builds thresh/goyf and the flip is still prety much random. If they do have top, then all you're realy doing is helping them get rid of the worse cards out of their top 3. You have to have a lot of slivers to overwhelm a top to the point of where you're making counterbalance not counter stuff. If you have that many slivers, you're winnning anyway (you have to have basicaly more slivers then they have lands... and that's not counting the slivers you're attacking with).
The idea of
play spell
response top, let top resolve
response, i think i'll mill for 2...
response top, let top resolve
response, mill 1
top again....
sounds like fun, but because they KNOW what cards they're manipulating, and you're only guessing, its actualy much easier for them to abuse this to draw ideal cards. Also, if this fight for the top card is on your turn, then they get the last say on "ok, now counterbalance resolves" (they pass priority second) which means it will prety much always counter your slivers.

matamagos

04-22-2009, 09:40 AM

You have reason, but he needs a lot of mana for this.

If your opponent has untaped lands just attack with your all army and forget the hability of screeching sliver.

If he passes turn with some lands taped then try to play your spells around counterbalance.

If he is conservative and doesn't tap lands his countertop will be effective, but you are slowing him. I think this is a good job for a turn 1 critter.

In addition you are hitting mystical tutor in the ad nauseam match.

Volt

04-22-2009, 12:11 PM

Here's the thing... This deck is all about the hive. You'll notice there are no slivers in this deck that just have random abilities. Every creature in the hive does something to make all the other slivers harder to deal with in some way, whether it's by making them untargetable, making them resistant to mass removal, making them bigger, or giving them flying.

In short, all of the following 1cc slivers are terrible:

Metallic Sliver
Mindlash Sliver
Screeching Sliver
Virulent Sliver

Even Sidewinder Sliver, which sort of seems like it could make the cut, has proved to be mediocre at best, because its ability is conditional (you have to be attacking).

If you're still not convinced, let me ask you this: What are you going to cut to make room for Screeching Slivers? Do you think that whatever nominal gain you might get from being able to mess with Counterbalance decks will make up for what you lose by cutting whatever you cut?

matamagos

04-22-2009, 01:13 PM

In fact I found screeching sliver when I was looking for 1cc slivers. Plated sliver has proven so good to me that I felt the need of more first turn slivers. Additionally I felt the need of more blue cards to pitch with force of will, and screeching sliver was the only one that remotely approached what I was looking for.

I agree that most of the time he is only a metallic sliver, a 1/1 wihout habilities. But you have him in the board in first turn and he gains one hability with every sliver played after him. He can be hitting by 2 in second turn and by three in the third.

I think some more first turn slivers will make the deck more aggro. I just want to give an opportunity to this idea. But I agree that maybe sidewinder is more useful than screeching. I will try both and comment the results.

The 1/1's will replace aether vial, a card that can be played in the side or just be cut off.

RoddyVR

04-22-2009, 02:39 PM

The 1/1's will replace aether vial, a card that can be played in the side or just be cut off.
Vial is the only thing in this deck that counterbalance decks actualy fear. If every other deck in your meta was some sort of enlightened tutor (or maybe doomsday) based combo deck that prety much always goes of after your turn 2, then ye, maybe screeching could replace vial.
Most of the time, vial speeds up the agro plan too.

matamagos

04-22-2009, 03:37 PM

Vial is the only thing in this deck that counterbalance decks actualy fear. If every other deck in your meta was some sort of enlightened tutor (or maybe doomsday) based combo deck that prety much always goes of after your turn 2, then ye, maybe screeching could replace vial.
Most of the time, vial speeds up the agro plan too.

I don't agree with this last sentence. Vial is awsome against counters and landstill, but I think it doesn't speed the aggro plan. With only 4 plated maindeck (if you play them) we usually don't take profit of vial the turn it only has 1 counter. So a first turn vial only ables us to play a sliver in the thrid turn, an attack with him in the fourth. Quite slow I think. A first turn sliver probably will have done 3- 6 damage before starting the fourth turn.

Volt

04-22-2009, 05:59 PM

I don't agree with this last sentence. Vial is awsome against counters and landstill, but I think it doesn't speed the aggro plan. With only 4 plated maindeck (if you play them) we usually don't take profit of vial the turn it only has 1 counter. So a first turn vial only ables us to play a sliver in the thrid turn, an attack with him in the fourth. Quite slow I think. A first turn sliver probably will have done 3- 6 damage before starting the fourth turn.

Consider the following 2 goldfishing scenarios:

With Aether Vial
Turn 1: play land, cast Aether Vial
Turn 2: put counter on Aether Vial, play land, cast Crystalline Sliver, vial in Plated Sliver
Turn 3: put counter on Aether Vial, play land, cast Hibernation Sliver, vial in Sinew Sliver, swing for 5, total of 5 damage dealt
Turn 4: swing for 10, total of 15 damage dealt
Turn 5: swing for lethal

with Screeching Sliver instead of AEther Vial
Turn 1: Play land, cast Screeching Sliver
Turn 2: Play land, cast Crystalline Sliver, swing for 1, total of 1 damage dealt
Turn 3: Play land, cast Sinew Sliver, cast Plated Sliver, swing for 5, total of 6 damage dealt
Turn 4: Cast Hibernation sliver, swing for 9, total of 15 damage dealt
Turn 5: swing for lethal

As you can see, there's really no difference. You're not improving your clock by removing Aether Vial.

matamagos

04-22-2009, 06:42 PM

Turn 1: play land, cast Aether Vial
Turn 2: put counter on Aether Vial, play land, cast Crystalline Sliver, vial in Plated Sliver

This is a very happy scenario! Vial and plated in hand with only one draw??? If we want to be serious we should enter in a more extended probabilistic discussion cause any single example isn't proof of anything.

My idea was just to include 1/1 slivers in order to increase our army and the hive effect that you mentioned before. Just let me time to check it. I'm 80% sure it will not function but hey! we are here to discuss our beloved deck!

I can find other substitute other than vial, like ponder, but in my opinion (and in the opinion of many others) aether vial fits better in decks with more creatures than counterslivers.

Volt

04-22-2009, 06:53 PM

This is a very happy scenario! Vial and plated in hand with only one draw??? If we want to be serious we should enter in a more extended probabilistic discussion cause any single example isn't proof of anything.

It's a very happy scenario whether you're playing Aether Vial or not. You will be hard-pressed to find many scenarios where an opening hand without Aether Vial will kill your opponent any faster than a hand with Aether Vial. Go ahead, try it. It's a good exercise.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to beat you up. I'm just trying to save you some time. The ship has already sailed on the Aether Vial issue. Believe me. About 2 years ago, I was where you are now.

matamagos

04-22-2009, 07:42 PM

Then maybe ponder will be my victim. This will make vial better. The bad point is that I will not be increasing the number of blue cards in the deck. And I can forget sidewinder sliver.

I've been also playing slivers for a while right not. Maybe I have not as much experience as you, but I'm not a beginner. The fact is that nowadays thersh is the aggrocontrol deck, and not us. I also remember the days between planar chaos and future sight, when we had sinew sliver and tarmogoyf didn't exist!!!

Volt

04-22-2009, 08:00 PM

Then maybe ponder will be my victim. This will make vial better. The bad point is that I will not be increasing the number of blue cards in the deck.

You've mentioned that a few times now. How many blue cards are you running? I can't imagine why this is a problem.

matamagos

04-23-2009, 04:46 AM

The list I run in the last tournament is quite standard for a UWg:

[19 Lands]

4 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
1 island
1 plain
1 forest
3 tundra
2 tropical
4 mutavault

[4 Artifacts]

4 Aether Vial

[19 Creatures]

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

[18 Instants & Sorceries]

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Ponder

Not running hibernation sliver decreases the number of blue cards in the deck: only 21. Maybe I could cut a land, but I like running 19 cause I play adoration in the side.

I suppoose any new sliver is expected in Alara Reborn.... ???

THEchubbymuffin

04-23-2009, 05:06 AM

I suppoose any new sliver is expected in Alara Reborn.... ???

No.

Volt

04-23-2009, 09:51 AM

Not running hibernation sliver decreases the number of blue cards in the deck: only 21. Maybe I could cut a land, but I like running 19 cause I play adoration in the side.

21 blue spells is fine. Many Threshold decks run that many, give or take 1.

I assume "adoration" = Worship ?

How has that basic forest worked out for you? Seems like you don't have much use for it. Might want to consider taking it out and putting in a 3rd Ponder.

matamagos

04-23-2009, 12:33 PM

Yes sorry, Worship.

Some months ago there were quite a lot of dragon stompies in my meta, and the forest was there to enable harmonic sliver in the second and third game. However it's true that today I don't see blood moon so often, so changing the forest for a ponder seems a good option.

However we have to consider that 4 of my lands are mutavaults so I will have to check if I get mana screwed with 18 lands. And maybe I will have to find a replacement for worship cause 4cc seems a lot in that case.

Julian23

05-08-2009, 05:14 PM

First of: I'm assembling this deck for a friend who's just about to enter tournament magic. We figured he'd be playing Counterslivers since as a novice I adviced him to play a proactive deck.
Right now the list looks like this:

As you can see there's still one card missing from the maindeck. Any suggestions from the people who are really experienced with this deck? Can't say anything about the meta although I think there MIGHT be not THAT many Tarmogoyfs running around. I really like those Talon Slivers vialed in against creature-heavy decks.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [U] Tundra
2 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Island (2)
1 [ST] Plains (4)

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
4 [TE] Muscle Sliver
3 [TE] Winged Sliver
3 [SH] Hibernation Sliver
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TE] Talon Sliver
SB: 2 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [US] Planar Void
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

/edit: Do you think it would be possible to fit 2 Mutavaults in there? -1 Plains -1 Fetch?

xsockmonkeyx

05-09-2009, 01:46 AM

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [U] Tundra
2 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Island (2)
1 [ST] Plains (4)

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
4 [TE] Muscle Sliver
3 [TE] Winged Sliver
3 [SH] Hibernation Sliver
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TE] Talon Sliver
SB: 2 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [US] Planar Void
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

/edit: Do you think it would be possible to fit 2 Mutavaults in there? -1 Plains -1 Fetch?

That list looks great! The Mutavaults should be a fine addition as well. -1 Sea +2 Vault should do it. I think the sideboard is also simple enough for a relative beginner to legacy to pick up and use. Maybe add some Hydroblasts depending on what you are expecting to see at the tourney.

matamagos

05-09-2009, 04:25 AM

What i don't really see working are these two copies of planar void in the side. With only 4 brainstorms maindeck they will be hard to find and planar void is a card that should be played early to be effective. I would replace them for the classic tormod's crypt if you need graveyard hate.

RoddyVR

05-11-2009, 09:32 AM

Went 3-0, ID into top 4 split yesterday. Only lost 1 game in the 3 rounds, so i think i'm permanantly switching to this version of slivers for Sunday afternoons.

Need some advice though. The fourth round, we IDed, then played out the games, and i got absolutely CRUSHED by Goyf Sligh two games in a row. What is the plan against that deck? One game i had an agro hand, but his goyf did enough damage before my hive could start blocking that burn prety much finished me off. The other game i had 3 counterspells to start with, but he just played to many creatures that i ran out and then he agroed me to death.
I'm playing an almost standard UWg list (3 ponders, 2 winged and a talon main deck). What spells would you recomend countering against that deck?

Dark_Cynic87

05-11-2009, 10:16 AM

Counterbalance pwns Goyf Sligh, but it doesn't look like you guys play CB at all any more (I was under the impression that CounterSliver did, looks like I was wrong).

Other than that, IDK.

Pce,

--DC

kicks_422

05-11-2009, 10:49 AM

Sligh has always been tough for Countersliver. You could pack a couple of Essence Slivers in the SB, but that's a bit narrow. 4 BEB's would do fine, I think.

JediCheese

05-11-2009, 12:46 PM

Volt

05-11-2009, 02:35 PM

We are having a legacy tournament here and most of the players are casual type 2. I wouldn't expect to run into any truly powered decks (ANT/Countertop/Goblins/Merfolk) but modified standard/extended decks to make use of good old cards.

I am playing a UWgb Countersliver deck (fully powered). What sort of stuff should I put in the sideboard?

Thus far, I am thinking:
3 Engineered Plague
2 Hydroblast
3 Duress
2 Planar Void
3 Wrath of God
2 Gaeas' Blessing (vs the one guy that may play mill)

Wrath of God? That's reaaaallly bad. If you're expecting lots of goyfs and/or elves, you could try Perish.

I would play 4 anti-red cards. Blue blasts and Burrenton Forge-Tenders are the best options.

You don't have any artifact/enchantment removal. You should probably do something about that.

I wouldn't worry about the mill deck.

JediCheese

05-11-2009, 06:21 PM

To be honest, I am more worried about stuff like WW or green stompy. They are fun, cheap, and don't lose alot of power if you substitute a few cards for others (going from Tarmagoyf to some other green beater in mono-green will be bad, but still playable). My guys can go mono-a-mono with opponents, but I typically need backup because it can take time to set up.

Any sort of elves/kithkin/goblins/faeries/merfolk/token deck is going to get hosed by Engineered Plague.

If I get extra spots, I would run another two hydroblasts (or blue elemental blasts, forget which is better).

The anti-artifact/enchantment hate I run is 1 maindeck Harmonic Sliver. I might do as I did in chicago and run another one or two in the SB if I have room.

Julian23

05-11-2009, 06:49 PM

Just a random thought: Would Massacre be able to replace Wrath of God in your sideboard?

Volt

05-11-2009, 06:58 PM

Just run a few Path to Exiles or Deathmarks (!) in your SB, if you're concerned about WW and green Stompy. Those decks shouldn't be big problems anyway.

Dark_Cynic87

05-11-2009, 07:32 PM

Or Smother...

Julian23

05-11-2009, 08:37 PM

From what I can tell (read: little) Talon Sliver provides quite a big bonus against creature based decks. Even if you're dudes are smaller or same the size you can just gang-block and grind their creatures away while yours grow bigger.

wizmentor

05-27-2009, 08:42 PM

In the green version, natural order + prog & sliver legion would give the deck a new dimension, but I don't know if it warps the counter in counter-sliver too much.

Jak

05-27-2009, 09:25 PM

In the green version, natural order + prog & sliver legion would give the deck a new dimension, but I don't know if it warps the counter in counter-sliver too much.

There is not enough green creatures and adding a Dryad Arbor to fuel Natural Order doesn't seem wise.

kicks_422

05-28-2009, 09:42 AM

Here's a random list. Took a 4-color version and just tweaked it.

4 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flodoed Strand
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea

4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Krosan Grip

SB
4 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
2 Worship/Essence Sliver

Pretty normal I guess. 19 lands, best (19) Slivers available, 20 standard spells. Had 2 slots left so I stuck in 2 Krosan Grips - which have been VERY solid.

RoddyVR

05-28-2009, 11:47 AM

I did prety well yesterday (3-1) in ELD's wednesday tourny (which i consider the "harder" of the two local metas). I have a hard time remembering the differences between all the countertop/dreadstill decks, but considering i played against them 3 of the yesterday's 4 rounds, i think i like the direction i went with the deck.
Spell Snare is amazing. Getting rid of Ponder makes the whole cantriping thing much easier for me (deciding between a turn 1 ponder or turn 1 brainstorm when looking for a specific card was making my head hurt before). And i think i'm finaly seeing why the swords are good in this deck, people dont play enough threats anymore, so swording a couple of them can criple quite a few gameplans.

8 Fetches (dont have enough blue ones, so its 4 heaths and a 3/1 split of the blues)
3 Tundra
3 Trop
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Mutavaults (after yesterday, i now have the other 2, not sure what to change to fit them in though)

4 Plated
4 Sinew
3 Muscle
4 Crystalline
3 Winged

4 Vial
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 SpellSnare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords
1 Sensei's Top (i keep forgeting to take it out of the deck before the tournys start..)

SB
1 Talon
1 Harmonic
1 Eladamri's Call
2 Stifle
3 KGrip
3 P Needle
4 relic of progenitus

3 rounds i sided in 3 grips, talon, harmonic and call... siding out top, 4 daze and either a crystal or a winged.
Won against what i think is called 4color landstill (maybe dreadstill, cant remember if his had the naughts or not). Eric was missing red, and it hurt him. Eplagues from the side did little enough that i had a grip in hand and was chosing to activate a vault over killing the plague on the table.
Then an actual Dreadstill deck that i won prety much on him being mana flooded game 1 and mana short game 2. He tried wastelanding ing me out of one game, but i started with 2 and drew 2 more lands and a vial...
Played against, a merfolk deck (with dreadnaughts, that's the one i lost, stupid island walk and B2B from side).
Went to game 3 against GRW coatl sligh (whatever its called), i HATE that matchup. never know weather to counter the burn or the creatures. Game 2, i got him to 2 life with me at 11 or 12, he draws and almost plays a PoP which would kill him, and leave me at 2, but i convince him not to... i have a swords and a force in hand, and i procede to lose the game by giving him enough life with my swords (goyf then coatl) and tap down to 4 mana to swords the caotl, so he can PoP me without me having the 5 mana for my force.... still took game 3 though, so its ok.

I think i'll finaly take that dam top out of the deck (left over from my try at countertopslivers), and add a mutavault. I think i mulled 3 times yesterday cause of no land hands.

KingAlanI

05-31-2009, 10:11 PM

I've been playing a CounterSliver build on MWS a lot lately with little success
Even with the counterspell backup, I find myself falling prey to

I can say that the conventional wisdom is right about Daze being better than Counterspell in here.

It's a W/U/G build without Top or Counterbalance

I may switch to W/U/B, or just go W/U.

Less manafixing issues [although I admit that's not a *huge* problem] could mean that I could go up to 4 Mutavaults.
And, to be honest, springing for *one* set of blue duals and blue fetches will be plenty. [Even though I'm using MWS, I tend to use ti for decks I already have in RL or am considering building in RL]

Essence Sliver would probably be my replacement for Muscle if I go this route.

I do likes me Slivers, so I'm trying hard to make this work. :)

Volt

06-01-2009, 02:21 AM

In response to recent posts:

The lists posted by Kicks and Roddy look fine to me, or at least the maindecks do. Krosan Grips and Spell Snares are great in this environment.

Spells that cost 4, such as Worship and Essence Sliver are simply too slow. Instead, run blue blasts or Burrenton Forge-Tenders in your SB.

I've been running a UWb list for a couple months now and mostly doing well with it. It's very sleek and efficient, with nothing costing more than 2 in the entire 75 cards.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
3 Mutavault

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Aether Vial

SB:
4 Annul <--- Consistently amazing
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 <metagame slots>
3 Submerge

AngryTroll

06-01-2009, 02:33 AM

Volt's List

I'd need a pretty good reason to run this deck and not run a list like this.

The only card I miss in the 75 are a pair or three Harmonic Slivers...but splashing green for them is always a tough decision. You probably win more games by not losing to Wastelands than you lose to Worship or something.

Annul in the board is awesome.

Jak

06-01-2009, 02:35 AM

I like the Annuls, but don't you just get boned hard by a top decked EE or Humility, etc? Maybe Annuls plus 2 Disenchant (or a 3cc Disenchant or something)?

Volt

06-01-2009, 02:44 AM

I like the Annuls, but don't you just get boned hard by a top decked EE or Humility, etc? Maybe Annuls plus 2 Disenchant (or a 3cc Disenchant or something)?

Between Annuls, Forces, and Dazes, I can almost always keep Humility off the board. EE actually isn't all that scary to me anymore, unless they have Academy Ruins recursion going with it. Usually, EE will only force you to bounce 1 or 2 slivers to your hand, leaving a Plated and/or Mutavault on the board. In fact, I can recall at least 2 occasions in the past couple months where I could have annulled my opponent's EE, but I let it resolve because it was only a minor annoyance, and I wanted to save the Annul for something truly annoying like Humility, Pernicious Deed, or Counterbalance.

Still, running a 3/2 split of Annul/Disenchant doesn't seem like a bad idea. It's something I've considered doing.

RoddyVR

06-01-2009, 10:04 AM

I went 8-3 this weekend, 4-1 then lose top8match at the Mox saphire tourny in Pawtucket (32 people i think) and then going 4-1 for top 4 split at the local sunday tourny (about 20 people).

I'd like to get opinions/confirmation of a couple things.
1. Mutavault is AMAZING against merfolk. I never before realized that their Island walk lord is actualy good for me. I actualy purpusely let one resolve and didnt sword it (keeping both force and stp for their 3 cost lord instead) cause it was making my mutavault so amazing. Considering how popular merfolk is getting (not to mention standstill decks in general), i think i'm gonna try to go to 4 mutavaults, am i going overboard?

2. If i have Fow, Daze and 3 spellsnares in my main, do i "need" stifles in the sideboard? I've got a couple in there, and it seems like i never realy board them in, but i havent played against much combo with this deck, so i'm not sure if they're needed or not. I think i'd like to replace them with a second Eladamri's call and a mirror entity, because tribal seems to be the way to go a lot lately in my metas. Though considering how much i like spellsnare, maybe the annul suggestion is a better way to go.

Its odd... before i would have easily said i was an agro player, but now that i'm playing this deck, i keep wanting to turn it more and more control.

Also, what is the gameplan against Ichorid? Faced it a couple times this weekend, and it almost seems like lucksacking into enough relics is the only real way to go. one match i got 3 relics and 2 needles game 2, and similar game 3. And even with that, they were close games. I can never decide if getting my slivers above 3 toughness is a good idea or not. On one hand making it so combat with a ichorid is fatal is good, cause it'll remove their bridges, on the other hand, it means losing slivers even when there's no bridges to remove (cause having lost one to remove the bridges, its hard to then get up above the 3 toughness threshold again) and those buggers just keep coming back, usualy with zombie helpers.
My approach seems to have been to try to counter their early game draw/discard spells, and needle their coloseums (or discard creatures if they've played them already), but if they have one more discard outlet then i have counter, then it was all a big waste. Keeping the counters for their dread returns and such, just makes them use their cabal therapies to get rid of it all before they go off...

Volt

06-01-2009, 01:40 PM

I went 8-3 this weekend, 4-1 then lose top8match at the Mox saphire tourny in Pawtucket (32 people i think) and then going 4-1 for top 4 split at the local sunday tourny (about 20 people).

I'd like to get opinions/confirmation of a couple things.
1. Mutavault is AMAZING against merfolk. I never before realized that their Island walk lord is actualy good for me. I actualy purpusely let one resolve and didnt sword it (keeping both force and stp for their 3 cost lord instead) cause it was making my mutavault so amazing. Considering how popular merfolk is getting (not to mention standstill decks in general), i think i'm gonna try to go to 4 mutavaults, am i going overboard?

Mutavault is indeed a boon for the deck. Of course, Merfolk also plays Mutavault, so it's a two-way street. Looking at the list you recently posted, I see that you've only been running 2. I would definitely bump it up to 3. You could swap out a fetchland for the 3rd Mutavault.

2. If i have Fow, Daze and 3 spellsnares in my main, do i "need" stifles in the sideboard? I've got a couple in there, and it seems like i never realy board them in, but i havent played against much combo with this deck, so i'm not sure if they're needed or not. I think i'd like to replace them with a second Eladamri's call and a mirror entity, because tribal seems to be the way to go a lot lately in my metas. Though considering how much i like spellsnare, maybe the annul suggestion is a better way to go.

Its odd... before i would have easily said i was an agro player, but now that i'm playing this deck, i keep wanting to turn it more and more control.

Also, what is the gameplan against Ichorid? Faced it a couple times this weekend, and it almost seems like lucksacking into enough relics is the only real way to go. one match i got 3 relics and 2 needles game 2, and similar game 3. And even with that, they were close games. I can never decide if getting my slivers above 3 toughness is a good idea or not. On one hand making it so combat with a ichorid is fatal is good, cause it'll remove their bridges, on the other hand, it means losing slivers even when there's no bridges to remove (cause having lost one to remove the bridges, its hard to then get up above the 3 toughness threshold again) and those buggers just keep coming back, usualy with zombie helpers.
My approach seems to have been to try to counter their early game draw/discard spells, and needle their coloseums (or discard creatures if they've played them already), but if they have one more discard outlet then i have counter, then it was all a big waste. Keeping the counters for their dread returns and such, just makes them use their cabal therapies to get rid of it all before they go off...

Ichorid is a scary matchup. I usually side in Burrenton Forge-Tenders (!) plus any graveyard hate I have in my sideboard. I try to counter the early discard outlets and then apply sliver beats as fast as I can. For whatever reason, I've done pretty well against Ichorid in my area. Typically, the Ichorid deck dies to itself once in the match, and then all I have to do is win one of the other games.

RoddyVR

06-01-2009, 04:52 PM

Mutavault is indeed a boon for the deck. Of course, Merfolk also plays Mutavault, so it's a two-way street. Looking at the list you recently posted, I see that you've only been running 2. I would definitely bump it up to 3. You could swap out a fetchland for the 3rd Mutavault.Ye, i actualy forgot to mention that i switched the StD in that list with a 3rd mutavault. One of the vsMerfolk games came down almost literaly to who draws more mutavaults to island walk into the other one.

Ichorid is a scary matchup. I usually side in Burrenton Forge-Tenders (!) plus any graveyard hate I have in my sideboard. I try to counter the early discard outlets and then apply sliver beats as fast as I can. For whatever reason, I've done pretty well against Ichorid in my area. Typically, the Ichorid deck dies to itself once in the match, and then all I have to do is win one of the other games.
So i'm not realy doing anything wrong, just a tough matchup that needs a good bit of luck in drawing the hate. The Burrentons seem like an odd choice to me. They're not slivers, and while that dont matter much cause they'd only go in against red decks, against who i immagine they are a house... it seems a bit narrow (even with being ichorid hate too). Although... would it prevent damage from all storm copies of Grapeshot or just one? There's an annoying elf storm deck in one of my metas...

For now i think i'm gonna lose the stifles and needles in my board and put in 4 annulls and maybe a second harmonic (or 4th muta in side...)

Volt

06-01-2009, 05:07 PM

The Burrentons seem like an odd choice to me. They're not slivers, and while that dont matter much cause they'd only go in against red decks, against who i immagine they are a house... it seems a bit narrow (even with being ichorid hate too).

I've come to the conclusion that BFT is one of the most underrated sideboard cards in Legacy. It is amazingly versatile. Consider everything it's good against:

Goblins. Even better than blue blasts, because it's a permanent that gums up the board and slows Goblins way down. It's a turn 1 answer to Lackey and it blocks Piledriver all day long.
Burn. Once again, better than blue blasts, because it stays on the board, blocking Mogg Fanatics and/or absorbing a point of damage from Hell/spark Elementals until you decide to sac it to prevent damage from a Fireblast or PoP.
Sligh & Zoo. Again, it blocks red creatures and absorbs a Fireblast /PoP.
Ichorid. Is it the card that Ichorid fears the most? No, but the ability to sac it at any time to get rid of Bridge from Belows can be a valuable part of your anti-Ichorid plan. Also protects your dudes from Firestorm out of their sideboard.
Aggro-Loam. Blocks Countryside Crusher all day long, and you can sac it to protect all your slivers from Devastating Dreams.

Really, what more could you ask for in a sideboard card?

RoddyVR

06-02-2009, 12:26 PM

Either i misread it, or just arent smart enough... Saving slivers from damage didnt even occur to me when i looked at it before. These guys actualy are good for the Sligh match... i should get some, i hate that match.

xsockmonkeyx

06-10-2009, 08:48 PM

So with the new rule changes for m10 Hibernation Sliver has returned to the original functionality as it had in Tempest, and thereby kinda sucks.

Since Hibernation Sliver has been nerfed for combat abilities what do we do now? Since stacking damage was a huge reason to include him in the list, this probably means he doesn't make the cut anymore. I think our next move is to go to UWg with 4 Mutavaults and take another look at Aether Vial. It's worse now that we wouldn't have slivers bouncing out of play, but most likely still makes the cut.

Thoughts?

Maverick676

06-10-2009, 09:07 PM

Even if you play the UWg list run Æther Vial, it improves any matchup against blue, color fixes and gives you interesting combat tricks. Run 5 if you can.

Volt

06-10-2009, 11:31 PM

Aether Vial stays if for no other reason than it nerfs Counterbalance.

And, yeah, I'm pretty sure Hibernation Sliver isn't worth playing anymore. What a drag.

Humphrey

07-15-2009, 04:22 PM

Since Hibernation is nerfed and i didnt like black in Countersliver before, im playing this version now:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [OV] Island
3 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
3 [FNM] Muscle Sliver
3 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
2 [TE] Winged Sliver

// Spells
4 [JU] Living Wish
4 [NE] Daze
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [CFX] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
SB: 1 [TE] Winged Sliver
SB: 1 [REW] Wasteland
SB: 1 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [FUT] Sliver Legion
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 [LE] Essence Sliver
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 1 [MM] Dust Bowl
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [9E] Worship
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

i like it so far, the only thing i hate is the landstill matchup

Volt

07-15-2009, 04:35 PM

I was wrong about Hibernation Sliver not being playable anymore. It loses something under M10, but not as much as I thought. Arguably, it's still the 2nd best sliver after Crystalline.

@Humphrey: Your list is interesting, but I don't like the Living Wishes. You should definitely max out the Crystallines and Sinews. One or 2 Eladamri's Calls would be okay, I guess. And yeah, your list has the traditional "I auto-lose to Standstill" problem that most Uwg builds share.

Humphrey

07-15-2009, 05:32 PM

I love the Living Wishes. As u see, i got the 4th crystalline in the wishboard to have him when i need him.

also the ability to get hibernation when i need it is awesome, maze against lonley goyfs or the finish with legion has won me games.
eldamris call is definitely worse.

i still dont like black in slivers :(

GGoober

07-15-2009, 05:52 PM

This is my take on Slivers (not in a Meathook shell but a Survival shell) after much playing and experiencing Bant Survival.

DECKLIST: Bant Sliver Survival:

21 Lands
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
3 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Mutavault
1 Island
1 Forest

Creatures: 21
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Crystalline Sliver
1 Gemhide Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
1 Essence Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis

Permission: 14
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Others: 4
4 Aether Vial

It's probably not fitted to Meathook thread, but if anyone is interested in discussing Survival Sliver archetype, we can start a new post. This list is inspired by Bant Survival, which has been performing strongly. We have much more synergy than Bant Survival although it's much more vulnerable to EE@2 or CB@2. Spell Snare is primarily against CB while if your meta is dominant with Deeds/EE, try Stifles in the MD. The thing I like about this list is that you have counterspell, and the ability to go nuts with Survival, and also to recover your board with Genesis.

We should probably run 4 Noble Hierarchs.

claudio.r

07-15-2009, 07:44 PM

Any possibility of building a good UW counterslives list ???

Shure, hibernation and muscle are big losses, and the possibility of a better sideboard too. But with only 2 colors the deck becomes more consistent and can support waste and standstill.

Any UW slivers decklist we can get into and tune ??

Edit:

like aggro_zombies list:

4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
2 Mirror Entity

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

Humphrey

07-16-2009, 07:12 AM

If u run Wastes, i would also include Stifle, also i wouldnt run entity

so it would be:

4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

3 Stifle
3 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Maze of Ith
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

Volt

07-17-2009, 01:14 AM

I've messed around with UW slivers before. Sorry to say, I never could find a build that didn't suck.

BreathWeapon

07-17-2009, 01:28 AM

Volt

07-17-2009, 02:12 AM

Isn't Aether Vial and Mutavault enough to support Standstill? With out Stifle or Vindicate, Wasteland is ineffectual; so why bother with Wasteland when Aether Vial and Mutavault, or even just Mutavault, let's you play Standstill? The only time it's problematic is when you're facing Mutavault + Wasteland, which is more or less just Merfolk and maybe Faeries, and it's a rare occurrence.

Aether Vial + Standstill will often win you the game, but Mutavault + Standstill is a risky proposition. Mutavault dies to Wasteland and can't go head to head with Mishra's Factory.

RoddyVR

07-20-2009, 11:12 AM

I got top 4 in the Hadley Mox Ruby tourny this weekend with an UW slivers list.
Definetly felt like having either green for muscle or black for hibernation would have helped. The mana base "stability" helped in one match (had plains for swords), but being able to survive a "3 to all flyers firespout" would have helped alot in the two matches i actualy lost.

Added more Homing slivers yesterday to have a UW way to get to the sinews faster. It worked alright, but still had the same problem. Needs either more muscles or a way to save slivers. Harm's Way was prety usefull in having a way to save slivers that are about to die.

3/4th Roddy Ruban (RoddyVR) Slivers
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted delta
4 tundra
1 Volcanic Island
2 plains
2 island
4 mutavault
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to plowshares
4 FOW
4 Standstill
2 Daze
2 Spellsnare
2 Brainstorm
4 Plated Slivers
4 Sinew Slivers
4 Crystalline Slivers
3 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Quill Sliver
1 Homing Sliver

SB:
4 Burrenton Forge tender
4 Annul
3 Relic of progenitus
4 Aura of Silence
The sideboard sucked, got to the tourny later then i hoped, and had to rebuild/resleave and then register the deck there, so didnt realy have enough time to do the sideboard right.
Quill should probably not have made it to the main... just felt like i needed something to help combat with the absense of muscles.
Tourny report (from memory, so might get some things wrong)
Got bye round 1,
Won against Ichorid round 2. Game one i wont prety much on the back of landstills (which he broke with therapys) for the most part and countering all his dread returns. Game two i won cause his dredging was bad enough that my turn 1 Relic didnt get popped till like turn 6, and even then i popped it to get rid of 3 of his ichorids (no bridges i think).
Lost to Eric (all but white countertop) round 3. As always this match i can only win if i get a top turn 1.
Won round 4 against Josh on the back of an insane number of crystaline slivers (had 3 each game i think). He was playing... i guess its thresh with red, i think... unless i'm mixing the memory up with yesterday's tourny... dam.
ID round 5 into top 8.
Won top 8 against what Alan called "black zoo". Had a bunch of discard, and then magus of moon with goyfs... i'm still not realy sure what that deck was. Having two basic plains in the deck definetly helped here.
Lost top 4 to Eric again. man i hate his deck. He did the Firespout all flyers thing again. i think i might start siding out winged sliver against him, atleast then his firespouts will kill his bobs too.

NiRVeS

09-10-2009, 04:58 AM

I have a sliver deck lying around for ages, but now I'm dusting it off for a friend to use at a small tournament this sunday. Could anyone help me build a sideboard for this?

Maindeck:
Creatures (19)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Essence Sliver

Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial

Instants (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak *
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fact or Fiction **

Lands (19)
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Mutavault

* Debatable: Counterspell? 2 Daze/2 Spell Snare split? Would do you think?
** Just wanted some instant-speed carddrawing. Should this be Standstill?

So, what to sideboard? Expected metagame:
1) Zoo / GoyfSligh
2) Merfolk
3) TempoTresh
4) CounterTopGoyfs
5) Ichorid
6) More Tribal

Contenders for SB-slots: Harm's Way, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Path to Exile, Abolish, Krosan Grip, Relic/Crypt, Rule of Law, Chill, Mind Harnass, Propaganda, Disrupt/Divert, Bouncespells, Annul, Negate, Standstill, Reveillark, Ethersworn Canonist, Sacred Ground, Trygon Predator, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg.

If anyone could propose me some sideboard configurations, it would be greatly appreciated.

Grtz, Tom

NiRVeS

09-11-2009, 09:26 AM

I've fiddled with my list some more and this is where I'm currently at:

Maindeck:
Creatures (19)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Essence Sliver

Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial

Instants & Sorceries (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder

Lands (19)
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Mutavault

Sideboard:
4x Harm's Way
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
2x Sower of Temptation

Any thoughts on this, anyone? See my previous post for the expected metagame.

Thx,

Tom

Silent Requiem

09-27-2009, 07:46 AM

Hello, I'm a Solidarity player looking to build an aggro or aggro-control deck. I love playing blue, but I dislike playing black or red. I'm hoping for something more competitive than my UG Madness deck, but still something funky (more than straight up beats).

How competitive is Countersliver? What are the matchups like? Why should I play this over Merfolk or Fairies?

I appreciate that these questions have undoubtedly been raised before, but the initial post does not cover them, and 40+ pages is a little daunting when I have not decided on whether to build the deck.

Thank you.

-Silent Requiem

Volt

09-28-2009, 02:00 PM

AngryTroll

09-28-2009, 02:25 PM

Sad to say, Countersliver is barely playable anymore. It still beats Goblins pretty well, but aside from that has very few good matchups, especially in the current environment. I actually dismantled/retired my sliver deck a few weeks ago, to the shock of my friends.

What pushed it out of playability? It seems like a couple of the white Slivers should be able to deal with the Zoo decks running around (Lifelink and First Strike). Lifelink stops the Merfolk decks, even if they do Islandwalk.

Thresh was never a terrible matchup, and Thresh is still the dominant deck in the format. What changed?

Volt

09-28-2009, 02:52 PM

What pushed it out of playability? It seems like a couple of the white Slivers should be able to deal with the Zoo decks running around (Lifelink and First Strike). Lifelink stops the Merfolk decks, even if they do Islandwalk.

Thresh was never a terrible matchup, and Thresh is still the dominant deck in the format. What changed?

The Zoo matchup is bad because you need Crystalline Sliver just to have a chance. Even if you have it, the deck is slow compared to just dropping Nacatls and Goyfs. By the time you stabilize the board, you're in danger of getting burned out.

Merfolk is a 50/50-ish matchup. Thresh is also 50/50-ish. Basically, most of this deck's current matchups are 50/50 or worse. It's too much of a struggle to play a deck like that in a competitive field.

matamagos

10-06-2009, 11:30 AM

I think playing slivers is more a personal election than a competitive choice. This deck will win you some games and is funny to play, but to win a tournament there are better aggrocontrol options.

I think the greatest weakness is the need of 2 or 3 slivers in play to become effective. In thresh, for example, every creature you play is a big threat to your opponent, while here a single sliver will hardly win you anything.

Pastorofmuppets

10-07-2009, 06:03 PM

Couldn't you pick apart a Tempo Thresh list and finagle in the Slivers?

matamagos

10-07-2009, 07:08 PM

Couldn't you pick apart a Tempo Thresh list and finagle in the Slivers?

it's a good idea, but there are two big problems:

1. we need white mana for sinew and crystalline.
2. CanadianThresh has only 8-12 creature slots. We need a strictly minimum of 15 (4 sinew+ 4 crystalline + 4 muscle + 3 winged)

And we will have to forget our mutavaults in benefit of the wastelands. With so few creatures the tribal effect will be reduced but... maybe anyways we should give it a try, just to check the idea.

Pastorofmuppets

10-07-2009, 10:14 PM

Here's a UGr Tempo Thresh list that got 2nd at Gencon 2009. Cards with hashes next to them are cards that can go out.

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose-
4 Tarmogoyf-
2 Vendilion Clique-

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice-
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt-
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland (I really wouldn't want to cut it for Vaults, I might try cutting some duals and see what happens.)

Red becomes white...
So that's 18 open slots, yes? Minimum of 15 creatures, right? If so you can cut a Brainstorm or Ponder for Vial #4. So now here's the list.

Tempo Meathooks (Name patent pending)

Creatures (17)
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Opaline Sliver

Spells (25)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 AEther Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (18)
I'm terrible at manabases.
Needs Wastelands, probably...

EDIT: so far on MWS the deck laid the smackdown on Elves! on turn 6. I'm getting a REALLY good feeling already. I know Opaline Sliver and Crystalline don't mix... Keep it or no?

matamagos

10-08-2009, 06:20 AM

EDIT: so far on MWS the deck laid the smackdown on Elves! on turn 6. I'm getting a REALLY good feeling already. I know Opaline Sliver and Crystalline don't mix... Keep it or no?

Once I read in an article that we should only try one experiment at a time in a deck. So if you try to introduce slivers in canadian, better to concentrate in this idea and forget untested slivers like opaline.

And red is what makes tempo thresh a tempo deck. This seems more a classic uwg thresh list than a canadian. A canadian thresh can win a game when the opponent has cleaned the board by burning him. This is one of the difference this deck has from the old thresh.

Pastorofmuppets

10-08-2009, 02:51 PM

Once I read in an article that we should only try one experiment at a time in a deck. So if you try to introduce slivers in canadian, better to concentrate in this idea and forget untested slivers like opaline.

And red is what makes tempo thresh a tempo deck. This seems more a classic uwg thresh list than a canadian. A canadian thresh can win a game when the opponent has cleaned the board by burning him. This is one of the difference this deck has from the old thresh.

The big thing I wanted from Thresh was the mana denial (Stifle and Wasteland)
Also, I want to use Necrotic Sliver somewhere, but I know I never will.

EDIT: Can I get some people to test this with? MWS is having one of its bad days. Scrubs everywhere.

matamagos

10-15-2009, 11:23 AM

Sorry to change the subject of discussion. Has anyone tried this?

http://askthejudgemtg.com/lorwyn/shapesharer.jpg

It has been played in some merfolk's decks, and I wonder why it would work there and not here.

The bad news are that we play crystalline, so we can not copy our sinew or muscle slivers while crystalline is on the board. On the other hand merfolk is more mana intensive than counterslivers, since our mana curve stops at 2, so we can easily have 3 open mana to play the changeling's hability.

the strenghts of the card are:

1. copy tarmo, dreadnought or tombstalker
2. get rid of legendary creatures
3. copy sinew or muscle sliver if we are able to

In addition it is a blue sliver, so we can pitch it with fows

IXEquilibrium

10-15-2009, 11:47 AM

I run a UW sliver deck and I find that Mirror Entity serves the same purpose as Shapesharer, but it works better. There are no conflicts with copying your creatures with crystalline on the board either.

It's interesting to use as a removal for a resolved dreadnought though (i'd use swords, but then i give the opponent 12 life). Still don't know that it is worth it.

AlterEgo

10-16-2009, 09:08 AM

Shapesharer has one HUGE disadvantage - with Crystalline out it's just a 2-mana-1/1 vanilla sliver:
":2::u:: TARGET Shapeshifter becomes..."

matamagos

10-16-2009, 10:37 AM

true! direct to the garbage can

Purgatory

10-26-2009, 04:29 PM

First post here, and I need some help already ;)

I've been playing UWg MeatHooks for a while, but then I fell in love with Hibernation Sliver while testing the UWbg version on MWS. So I added the fourth colour and this is my list at the moment:

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
3 Mutavault

Creatures:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

Others:
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial

Now, the maindeck feels about as stable as it can get, but I need some feedback on the sideboard. I am attending a larger tournament (40+ people) this weekend, and here's what I have so far:

3 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Duress
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle

Since the tournament is at another town, where I usually don't play, and since it attracts people from all over Sweden, I can't know about the metagame for sure. I do expect a decent amount of Control, mostly in the form of Landstill or prison decks (white stax), as well as some random aggro builds, Goblins, Suicide and such. The latter feel a lot easier to tackle than the earlier, however.

In short, would the above sideboard suffice when going to a tournament with a largely unknown metagame?

kicks_422

10-26-2009, 06:17 PM

matamagos

10-27-2009, 03:55 AM

You'd want some Blue Elemental Blasts in there, for sure. Or Volt's tech of Burrenton Forge-Tender, which protects against Red and serves as a Bridge from Below hoser in a pinch - among its many other uses.

Maybe the weaker slot of your list is the meddling mage, who will get all the creature hate since the rest of slivers are covered by crystalline.

-3 meddling ---> +3 forge-tender???

Good choice this 3-3 distribution in the sideboard, since slivers is a very narrow list who can't assume a lot of changes in the second and third game.

Purgatory

10-27-2009, 06:57 AM

Maybe the weaker slot of your list is the meddling mage, who will get all the creature hate since the rest of slivers are covered by crystalline.

-3 meddling ---> +3 forge-tender???

Good choice this 3-3 distribution in the sideboard, since slivers is a very narrow list who can't assume a lot of changes in the second and third game.

Meddling Mage is mostly a speedbump against combo decks.

But I will definitely consider the forge-tenders.

Illissius

10-27-2009, 09:50 PM

I don't see why this deck is necessarily inferior these days. It's basically Merfolk with fewer utility lands, more colors, and a different complement of dudes.

A more or less 'straight' port could look something like this:

4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver / Plated Sliver
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze / Thoughtseize / Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 Mutavault / Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island

Yeah, no Brainstorm. Merfolk doesn't run Brainstorm even in builds with fetchlands and a color splash, and it's doing a lot better than Slivers is. I don't see a coherent argument for why Brainstorm would be right for one deck and wrong for the other one beyond the tautological "it's a different deck!", so let's go with success.

Fewer utility lands is bad, and more colors means a less stable manabase. On the plus side, you get to draw from a wider range of spells, even if you have limited room to run them in. If the dudes are better, it could be workable. The big question is: are they?

I'm not an expert with either deck, but if someone were to compile a unified ranking of Slivers and Merfolk that could shed some light on the question. As a rough guess, I imagine Crystalline Sliver would top the list, followed by Lord of Atlantis, then Silvergill Adept and Muscle and Sinew Slivers beat out the other Merfolk lords, and then Winged/Hibernation/Plated Sliver bring up the rear but are still better than Cursecatcher. So maybe that's not compelling enough to go with the Slivers, but I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand.

Edit: A streamlined three color version could look like this:

4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
SB: i liek harmonic slivers

That basically does look like Merfolk with different creatures.

Purgatory

10-28-2009, 04:30 AM

So if Slivers are Merfolk with different creatures, what makes you play Slivers instead of Merfolk? Surely, the single-colour manabase and the utility lands help?

EDIT: That is, I don't believe that the Sliver dudes are necessarily better than the Merfolk dudes.

Hanni

10-28-2009, 05:58 AM

I agree with Illissius 100% that if Merfolk can a DTB, so can Slivers. Slivers just needs to be more aggro and less aggro/control.

First of all, Thresh can play tons of cantrips because it has the mana available to do so; it only drops a few large undercosted guys. This deck wants to constantly cast as many Slivers as possible, making it mana hungry, and too many cantrips affect tempo.

I disagree without running Brainstorm, though. Merfolk doesn't run the fetches to abuse it, Slivers does. Brainstorm is really too good not to run.

Slivers runs a more unstable manabase, which weakens some matchups. Slivers runs stronger creatures, which strengthens some matchups.

No doubt is Mutavault/Vial/Standstill necessary. Wasteland and Stifle, on the other hand, I disagree with. With the 3c manabase, there's no room for Wasteland. Many Merfolk decks don't even run Stifle.

More aggro means more synergy. Crystalline already gives Slivers what Merfolk doesn't have (protection), and Winged Sliver does what Lord of Atlantis does (evasion). The deck runs lesser costed pump Slivers that don't have extra abilities, so it should be faster (more aggressive), but less multi purpose. It also has access to Harmonic Sliver, an effect which Merfolk lacks.

At the same time, it loses strength from Waste/Daze, so it runs neither. This opens it up more to expensive hate like Firespout, Engineered Explosives, and Wrath of God. I'm sure some sideboarding can attempt to fix that.

U/W/g Slivers

Lands (20)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Mutavault

Creatures (20)
3 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

Spells (19)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard (15)
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 (something)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Harmonic Sliver

This is a very *rough* list, but where I'd probably start. The large amount of undercosted "lords" should make opposing aggro matchups really good, especially with Crystalline. Board control matchups are weakened, but hopefully Mutavault/Standstill/Vial/Crystalline/FoW help out... if not, the sideboard can change to fix those matchups. CounterTop seems like it would get overrun by heavy aggro if they can't answer Vial or assemble CounterTop in time, but I don't know.

Thoughts?