[OLD] UGb Threshold [Archive]

Citrus-God

04-12-2007, 10:36 PM

Introduction:

UGb Threshold is a Threshold deck that utilizes Black cards, such as Thoughtseize and/or Dark Confidant as well amazing Sideboard options, such as Engineered Plague for the Goblin and Faerie match-up, Yixlid Jailer for the Ichorid match, and Haunting Echoes for the control match up.

The point of running Black in Threshold is to abuse the powerful Thoughtseize in order to take out threats and answers so that you can force down Counterbalance and Tarmogoyfs aggressively with the new found information off Thoughtseize which you capitalize on.

Dark Confidants play a big role in UGb Thresh as well, being a pseudo Ophidian that doesnt need to attack and draws cards. Although Dark Confidant isn't the absolute reason to play Black, many still play Dark Confidant alongside with Thoughtseize because of the immense power level of those two cards.

Why Should I Play Black in Threshold?:

Because Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant are the shit. Yixlid Jailer is bossome as well.

Why Play Black over Red or White?:

Because Thoughtseize and Ghastly Demise/Smother is way better than Lightning Bolts and Blood Moons, and Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Rings. Thoughtseize is proactive.

Blood Moon is becoming weaker because more and more decks are running more basics and more fetchlands. Lightning Bolt is a terrible removal card. Pyroclasm is good, but that's about it. Red Elemental Blasts are baller.

White may have Swords to Plowshares, Mystic Enforcer, Gaddock Teeg, and Oblivion Rings... but those cards are weak compared to Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize literally is, the shit.

But from what we have compiled off the list of cards, the cards from Red and White are good, but don't justify being ran over Black. Of course, that brings to our 2nd option; 5 Color Threshold. We have all the awesome of White, all the awesome of Red, the bossome monsters of Green, the power level of Black, and the skeleton of Blue, you have the most flexible list of Threshold to date.

// Lands 18
4 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard 15
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
4 Yixlid Jailer

Cantrips in this deck should allow you to fix your 5 color mana base, while other cards such as Thoughtseize, Daze, FoW, and Counterbalance disrupt the opponent. You create a soft lock then you proceed to drop a threat or two and win under the Counterbalance soft lock. This should be your general plan. Another plan is to again, play like a normal Threshold deck or cast a Thoughtseize and proceed to overextend because of the new found information of your opponent having a weak hand.

The playset of Pyroclasms in the sideboard is an important part of the Sideboard for 5 Color Threshold. They're good against Vial Goblins, Ichorid, and other random decks. I consider Pyroclasms and Krosan Grips to be the MVP of the Sideboard and should never be taken out.

Other options for the Sideboard are extra REBs and BEBs, EEs, Gaddock Teeg, Armageddon, Jotun Grunt, Control Magic, and other random assortment of cards thanks to the 5 color mana base.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-12-2007, 11:12 PM

Have you tried Gloomdrifter in place of Engineered Plague? It does have the disadvantages of costing one more and not being permanent, but it also has the advantage of being a Wrath-effect (versus Goblins) on a flying stick.

The other possibility would be to use it in conjunction with Engineered Plague, over a cantrip like Predict (or something).

I know that once, quite some time ago, I did a fair bit of testing with Gloomdrifter over/on top of Plague, but I can't remember what my results were at the time, unfortunately.

Edit: As far as Dark Confidant is concerned, I think that you may well be better off running some other creature in that slot, since the deck already has a very potent draw engine left over from Thresh. I realize that's a controversial statement, but that's what it looks like. I realize full well that Confidant is most of the reason to be playing the Black splash, but will you have enough mana to be casting everything that your cantrips are drawing on top of Confidant? How often do you just cantrip/Confidant into cantrips? The other question that probably needs to be answered is whether or not a cantrip engine is more effective than a dredge engine and/or Zombie Infestation.

BreathWeapon

04-12-2007, 11:56 PM

It's the best build of Threshold, even if it is the least used. Engineered Plague, Duress, Dark Confidant and to an extent Psychatog improve every match up you have; Engineered Plague is the only SB/MD answer that actually answers Goblins, and with all of the cantrips you can easily cast two of them, Duress is better than Meddling Mage against combo, Dark Confidant is GG if it resolves and stays on the board against any other aggro-control or control deck, and Psychatog is the best finisher of all three colors.

I could never understand why this deck never took off.

Edit: Portent and Predict suck over Mental Note, way too many cantrips.

Jak

04-13-2007, 12:09 AM

I love UBG Thresh. I think it needs a solid beater. I like tombstalker, but it really is bad to lose thresh to play him and then get him StP. Plus losing 8 life off confidant sucks some major ass.

I think the deck has a little too much draw. I mean it is good, but I think a tad more business spells would be good. I would cut 2 predicts for another counterspell and make some room for more creatures.

Love the deck, but I would like to see a nice finisher. Don't know what, but yeah.

Citrus-God

04-13-2007, 12:24 AM

Edit: Portent and Predict suck over Mental Note, way too many cantrips.

I really dont want to resurrect the debate since it went somewhere, but the fact this very likely, isnt at all true. Predict and Portent are very good, and has been giving a lot of people high placings. The numbers thus far are Jason Portizio, Mad Zur, Happy Gilmore (if he participates in more tournaments), Overlord95, and ObFreely. I as well had great success with Portent and Predict, and a huge advocate of it.

I really want to hear why you think running lot's of cantrips is bad? I will give you my view on running lot's of cantrips in general though.

I see running cantrips as a robust way of going through your deck. The more cantrips you run, the more cards you see. This nessesarily isnt bad, but a robust way of getting what you need, replacing threats, and keeping the chain going until your opponent is in exhaust. I never saw it as a bad thing since against every match up you have, it's nice to play the same way consistently against them, but find different cards and target different weaknesses. Only time where you would side out cantrips is against Goblins, since your looking for the same cards against Goblins, may as well have BEB or Stifle in the opening hand instead. This is however, irrevelent if you run Pyroclasm sinc eoyu want to cycle through your deck finding as many Pyroclasms as possible. You do the same with this deck to find Plague.

I love UBG Thresh. I think it needs a solid beater. I like tombstalker, but it really is bad to lose thresh to play him and then get him StP. Plus losing 8 life off confidant sucks some major ass.

I think the deck has a little too much draw. I mean it is good, but I think a tad more business spells would be good. I would cut 2 predicts for another counterspell and make some room for more creatures.

Love the deck, but I would like to see a nice finisher. Don't know what, but yeah.

I would much rather replace Confidant to tell the truth. In a format like Legacy, I would much rather sacrifice card advantage for board supperiority.

Playing Tombstalker doesnt nesessarily mean getting rid of 6 cards to play him. It seems more of a 2-4 cards to play him usually. In a deck that has so many cards in the grave and plays card constantly through "Velocity", it shouldnt matter unless your going below 7 cards.

As for the deck, I'd just cut Confidants for Tombstalker and the 3rd Countespell.

I really want to test Tombstalker actually. I think it's awesome that it's being printed.

lukatron2

04-13-2007, 01:04 AM

Edit: As far as Dark Confidant is concerned, I think that you may well be better off running some other creature in that slot, since the deck already has a very potent draw engine left over from Thresh. I realize that's a controversial statement, but that's what it looks like. I realize full well that Confidant is most of the reason to be playing the Black splash, but will you have enough mana to be casting everything that your cantrips are drawing on top of Confidant? How often do you just cantrip/Confidant into cantrips? The other question that probably needs to be answered is whether or not a cantrip engine is more effective than a dredge engine and/or Zombie Infestation.

Because cantrips only give you card quality...Dark Confidant gives you actual card advantage...both are very important but combined togeather can be even more explosive...In the late game you want confidant because he will draw you the cards you need...If I were to cut anything Id cut cantrips before Confidant

Citrus-God

04-13-2007, 01:19 AM

Because cantrips only give you card quality...Dark Confidant gives you actual card advantage...both are very important but combined togeather can be even more explosive...In the late game you want confidant because he will draw you the cards you need...If I were to cut anything Id cut cantrips before Confidant

It's kinda weird... I do the opposite. I'd rather cut Confidant before cantrips.

Nydaeli

04-13-2007, 01:19 AM

Citrus-God

04-13-2007, 01:23 AM

Tombstalker looks really strong and is an incentive not to play Confidant. Which is an incentive to play Night's Whisper.

Playing a cantrip base consisting of four each of Brainstorm, Serum Visions and Night's Whisper seems really powerful. Whisper doesn't clog deck space with additional setup like Portent, and it gives you unconditional card advantage.

Actually, Portent is very strong in the early stages of the game. Cutting it means your Dazes and FoWs become weaker, and your control in general just go back to being marginal cards. Portents at least let you maximize those marginal cards. It also replaces your threats and finds control to keep the game dragging until it's in your favor.

Also, Stalker interacts well with Deed, if we decide to play it.The 3rd best deck at abusing Pernicious Deed in the format besides Truffle Shuffle and BHWW Landstill?

I've detonated Deed, and played a Goose and bear right away before. Talk about capitalizing on devastating control elements.

BreathWeapon

04-13-2007, 01:27 AM

Cantrips disclude business and decrease tempo, Brainstorm and Serum Visions are more than enough cantrips, and Mental Note builds Threshold faster than Portent or Predict.

Cutting Dark Confidant is a terrible idea, it's what wins games against aggro-contol and control.

Tombstalker is interesting, but it doesn't belong here; it's not as good as Tog at ending the game and it's anti-Threshold, but perhaps in some form of Gro or Intuition-Loam it could be worth while? Hell, it's not terrible in U/b/w etc. if it drops Jotun Grunt.

thefreakaccident

04-13-2007, 02:42 AM

I played this varient for a while, and loved it. It has a great match up against the other two splices... as for an effective beater, I was unable to find one that gave synergy with confidant and not be an issue to play. I tried efreet (lost too much life), I tried negator (1 burn spell and I died), and I tried other things as well; nothing worked for me... I eventually made a 4 color thresh, which did very well in utilizing all gooding from all of the given colors. Black ensures card quality and possiblt discard, as well as giving us the valuable side board slots that we love. Blue gives us the counter/ utility spells that we need, as well as the cantrips that make this deck good in the first place. Green gives us our kill conditions, which happen to be some of the most cost effective creatures around). White gives us meddling mage as well, the best pin point removal that we could possibly ask for, and the best creature we could use (Enforcer). BGU is very affective, as well as its' white counterpart... I came to the 4c build my self so as to utilize all the strengths of these two decks, it wasn't much of a stretch due to the fact that their cores were the same.

As for a finisher that is on color for the BgU build, there is none that don't kill you or at least are playable... I would suggest going down to 14 cantrips to add some much neede removal, once you get a confidant online the cantrips are trivial compared to his sheer card advantage anyways.

Citrus-God

04-13-2007, 02:58 AM

Cantrips disclude business and decrease tempo, Brainstorm and Serum Visions are more than enough cantrips, and Mental Note builds Threshold faster than Portent or Predict.

It's business. It finds you business spells and threats. Anything besides a simple draw spell able find you those things at a low cost that synergizes with your game plan?

For example;

Is Bardo's

4 Daze
4 FoW
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage

Any different from

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 FoW
3 Needle

Basically, the base with the Portents and Predicts swapped the Meddling Mages for Portent. Why? Because Portent is a fixed variable unlike Meddling Mage. Meddling Mage is at best a Duress/Mesmeric Fiend, but with a weak body of 2/2. Portent at least is everything - it finds you control, threats, and ensures that you dont have to mulligan your hand so often with 1-land hands. The fact that a Portent can find a an untargetable 3/3, a beefy 4/4, or an evasive 6/6 is what make it truely great, and it allows you to get rid of dead cards. With Meddling Mage, you get a little bit of both as it serves as a 2/2 that prevents someone from playing something facing a board of Fanatics, Matrons, etc, etc. Against RGSA, it doesnt matter - if you play a Mage on SotF or FtK, cards like Trolls, Baloths, and Werebears trump it.

The point of running Portent and Predict isnt about getting Threshold. It's about card quality. In a deck that has characteristics of a 1-for-1 trade, it's all about making your Midgame and Late game effective. You can beat decks like Truffle Shuffle, simply because you outdraw them in terms of card quality.

Cutting Dark Confidant is a terrible idea, it's what wins games against aggro-contol and control.

Tombstalker fights Aggro Control and Control just as well. What does Confidant do against RGSA? What does Confidant do against Truffle Shuffle, Rifter, Confinement Slide, or even Wombat?

Fighting the Threshold mirror is all about the attrition war. Tombstalker turns a game of attrition wars, into a game of board dominance. The same applies to Tormod's Crypt, Loaming Shaman, Nantuko Monastery, Mystic Enforcer, Fledgling Dragon, and potentially Control Magic (You steal their big flier, you control the board now, unlike FtK which is just another beat stick).

Tombstalker is interesting, but it doesn't belong here; it's not as good as Tog at ending the game and it's anti-Threshold, but perhaps in some form of Gro or Intuition-Loam it could be worth while? Hell, it's not terrible in U/b/w etc. if it drops Jotun Grunt.

Tombstalker IMO, at most takes 3 cards from your Graveyard. I wouldnt expect to play him until midgame. If you need to play him on turn 3, make sure he wins you the game. I see Tombstalker very good against a deck like RGSA when they're in their premature development.

Anyways, with the discussion on Tog. Tog is a one-trick pony. You have to invest cards in it, and it's a one-time investment. It doesnt advance your game plan if it keeps getting blocked every turn. Tombstalker at least ends the game in 4 swings while your guys are doing a ground stall.

Anarky87

04-13-2007, 09:08 AM

I haven't actually tested or played with this version of the deck, but I did at one time make it U/G/b/w because I wanted Confidant and Plague in the board with the removal of StP and the beater of Enforcer. Worked out pretty well. But I believe stretching your manabase that far is only asking for disaster perhaps. Black seems a good choice to add, but without a big evasive beater llike the other colors, all your creatures with spend their time in chump town until your opponent throws down their own fatty and wins. Tombstalker looks interesting though.

Happy Gilmore

04-13-2007, 09:59 AM

it is important to note that Tombstalker is much much better with the new Green creature everyone is talking about:

Tarmogoyf http://mtgsalvation.com/images/image.png (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45721&stc=1&d=1176328003)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gifCreature - Lhurgoyf(TS) http://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/fs-R.gifTarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and it's toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal)
#153/180
*/1+*

Unlike Werebear you can remove all but 3 cards in your GY and still have him be a 3/4 or better. Tombstalker on the other hand has bad synergy with Ghastly Demise, something worth mentioning. If you are switching to Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker instead of Confidant/Werebear you could easily switch to Vedetta instead without loosing too much umph. And I would still play Predict over Night's Whisper, because it is blue and the 2nd card you put in the GY is very important.

This is a direct port from the Red Version I am considering for testing in the GP (if they make Futuresight Legal)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Portent
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Vendetta
3 Pithing Needle
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 FoW

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
2 BEB
2 Naturalize
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Tombstalker
3 Duress

Citrus-God

04-13-2007, 10:16 AM

it is important to note that Tombstalker is much much better with the new Green creature everyone is talking about:

Tarmogoyf http://mtgsalvation.com/images/image.png (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45721&stc=1&d=1176328003)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gifCreature - Lhurgoyf(TS) http://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/fs-R.gifTarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and it's toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal)
#153/180
*/1+*

Unlike Werebear you can remove all but 3 cards in your GY and still have him be a 3/4 or better. Tombstalker on the other hand has bad synergy with Ghastly Demise, something worth mentioning. If you are switching to Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker instead of Confidant/Werebear you could easily switch to Vedetta instead without loosing too much umph. And I would still play Predict over Night's Whisper, because it is blue and the 2nd card you put in the GY is very important.

This is a direct port from the Red Version I am considering for testing in the GP (if they make Futuresight Legal)

[Decklist]

Love the decklist, but i'd probably play Ghastly Demise over Vendetta. Tombstalker will take at most 3 cards away from you unless you want to play him early. I dont see much wrong with him doing so, so Ghastly Demise is still able to take down Exalted Angels and such.

Way to forget about Counterbalance in the Sideboard. I assume you wrote this up as you got up?

My Maindeck wouldnt change. The Sideboard would probably be

1 Tombstalker
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Engineered Plague
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Tormod's Crypt/ 2 Crypt, 4th Deed

Tarmogoyf is awesome. I expect him in to probably be one of the most awesome cards ever printed thus far for this deck next to Counterbalance.

Nightmare

04-13-2007, 10:19 AM

Seraphim

04-13-2007, 11:34 AM

Here is the problem that I see with your meddling mage argument (I totally agree with 95% of everything else said)... Meddling Mage only answers one threat that they may or may not tutor for. Duress answers the tutor prematurely. This is important because sometimes we do actually fail to deal with a turn 1 xantid swarm (something you should expect from combo game 2). If we fail to deal with swarm (even if just once), we are stuck in a situation where we can't counter the onslaught of spells. More often than not, storm / belcher decks have multiple ways to win. This means that 1x meddling mage on the board will not stop them from running out their other win condition. It takes 2 to answer most of those decks. This basically means that duress is going to be better in the early game by removing a valuable tutor / mana spell to slow them down, especially since it can land turn 1. Meddling Mage serves better as a FOW pitch in some occasions unfortunately.

Is meddling mage better than duress vs the non-storm combo? Thats a very solid question with not absolute answer. In some matches it is, in some it isn't. Meddling mage is probably stronger against aluren than duress. Against Salvagers it definitely can be, but is weakened by the new prevalence of pernicious deed in some gamekeeper builds.

In the solidary match-up, meddling mage is becoming increasingly hated on via a red splash for sudden shock. Against the red splash versions, I think a single duress could be better than a single meddling mage. 2 meddling mages is better than 2 duresses, though.

Nightmare

04-13-2007, 11:41 AM

Seraphim

04-13-2007, 12:21 PM

Most of that is wrong. Why are you naming win conditions, or Tutor targets with Meddling Mage? Name accelleration or the Tutors themselves. It effectively acts like a 2/2 Duress if you do. That's pretty amazing in a tempo deck.

If you can't deal with a turn 1 Xantid with Force, Swords(or Demise), Edict, or Daze, then yes, you're in trouble. You should be able to by turn 2 most of the time. However, in this situation, Duress is still worse than Mage, since Mage can take out more than a single card in their hand, and starts the clock.

Solidarity has a difficult time dealing with Meddling Mage naming High Tide, no matter what David Gearhart says. Forcing them to interact with you is always correct.

Meddling Mage without any way to peer into the opponents hand should not be acting like a grizzly-cabal therapy without the flashback. Its not duress because the best part of duress is getting to pick the best card, not getting stuck naming something that may or may not have a valid affect on the game. The fact that most of these decks use 3 different tutors makes randomly naming a tutor wrong. Further, naming acceleration is usually wrong but can RANDOMLY win you games. Most decks are running 4 different major accelerants (if not more). Its more likely that you will name the acceleration piece they don't have in their hand than it is for you to get one of them right.

I do agree, however, that you should name high tide against solidarity. Solidarity will give you 3-4 turns to put together a good disruption package on them. This can and should be taken advantage of by maging high tide then cunning wish.

Nightmare

04-13-2007, 01:16 PM

Meddling Mage without any way to peer into the opponents hand should not be acting like a grizzly-cabal therapy without the flashback. Its not duress because the best part of duress is getting to pick the best card, not getting stuck naming something that may or may not have a valid affect on the game. The fact that most of these decks use 3 different tutors makes randomly naming a tutor wrong.Mage is ineffective vs. one combo deck in Legacy, TES. Any of the others, it's a house, and there is an obvious card to name, meaning Mage is never a Grizly-Therapy. Vs. TES, for every time you name LED and they win without it, there are two where you Duress them and they have:

Rite of Flame
Land
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Infernal Tutor
Burning Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond

In this scenario, you lose. Your only choice is to take the LED, but what happens if they rip another one? Mage is a static disruption piece that swings, and you really can't ask for much more in this deck.

Further, naming acceleration is usually wrong but can RANDOMLY win you games. Most decks are running 4 different major accelerants (if not more). Its more likely that you will name the acceleration piece they don't have in their hand than it is for you to get one of them right.Again, you name accel vs. one out of the three decks - TES. You name IGG vs. IGGy, you name High Tide vs. Solidarity. My point wasn't that naming tutors is correct, but that Duress is ineffective vs. them anyway. The goal is to slow the combo deck down enough for you to get your real disruption package online. Mage is more effective at this than Duress is, when used against today's combo decks.

Finn

04-13-2007, 02:23 PM

It seems to me that the classic best reason to use black in Thresh has been access to Dark Confidant. With that out, you have Ghastly Demise as the only black card in the main. Is this new guy really good enough to lose things like Mage and STP or Bolt and Fire//Ice?

Black is imo currently a very strong color, but this deck is not really making use of its strengths very well. Instead of showcasing the best stuff like Deed, Hymn, Damnation, etc. you have Ghastly Demise. I'm not saying you should replace the demises with Hymn or something. They are there for a clear reason. But perhaps this deck needs to be seriously reworked when you consider what is going in and what is not being used at all.

BreathWeapon

04-13-2007, 02:24 PM

There is a TON of incorrect information in this thread. I don't really have time to go through and correct it all right now, but I'll address what I can.

First of all, Black absolutely does not improve the quality of your removal. It doesn't. Ghastly Demise is strictly inferior to StP in every way, and this comes from someone who has used both at many, many times. The fact that it cannot answer a Negator or even an opposing Confidant is extremely relevant, and can lose you matches. To say that this is made up for by running Diabolic Edict is a fallacy, and at most it gives you more removal spells at the cost of cantrips or threats. It's blatantly obvious that Red has the most powerful removal package, because it doesn't run a single spell that is dead in the combo matchup. Burn can always fly at your oponent's noggin. While it doesn't have spot removal as potent as StP or Demise, it more than makes up for it in reach.

Engineered Plague is a relevant point of contention, but remember that White has Tivadar's Crusade (or Hail Storm) and Red has PYROCLASM. Both are viable solutions to the Goblin Problem, and as Goblins is basically designed to deal with Plague now, I wouldn't count it as the strongest possible solution to the deck anymore.

Haunting Echoes is AWFUL in Thresh. Notice that Thresh runs zero cards that cannot be played for 4 mana or less (3 with Werebear). This is for a reason. The control matchups you refer to will probably be either Loam decks, Landstill, or Wombat. Vs. the first two, you need to have 5 mana up on your Main Phase, which is an issue in itself when both decks rape your manabase, and then resolve Echoes through disruption (in the case of Landstill). Vs. every one of those decks, Armageddon is a Turn faster, supports your game plan better, affects the present board state, and disrupts your opponent more effectively.

Deed + Nimble Mongoose = Not a combo.

As Dark Confidant is the most important part of the black splash (see the Herbig project - discussed here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4029)), all the huge guys and flashy win conditions drive up the potential for Bob to screw you. Even with just Force in the deck I get nervous. Some of you are even advocating cutting cantrips with Bob in the deck! The whole point of fitting him into the thresh shell was to utilize the natural knowledge of your top library card to make Bob free draw. Cutting Portent, Visions, or Brainstorm when they all make Bob better is a mistake. You don't really need Predict or Mental note as much anymore, but both are potent with or without Confidant in play.

Duress absolutely is NOT better than Meddling Mage vs. Combo. I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not he's needed in UGw thresh with you, because that will go on forever, but let's say you have to choose one or the other. Duress is a temporary solution that takes the most pertinent threat out of their hand. This works into your game plan how? What are you planning to do in order to capitalize on that disruption? Play a cantrip and a Mongoose? Meddling Mage is a threat that they must answer to win the game, or slow down to play around. Either way, he buys you at least some time, where Duress may or may not. Note that this applies more to Non-TES combo decks, but is true there, as well, if you play tightly.

Portent vs. Mage - Mage disrupts your opponent starting turn 2. Portent draws you another counterspell that doesn't help vs. Storm. Note that I don't disagree that Portent is good, but I wouldn't choose it over Meddling Mage.

I may have more later, and feel free to disagree.

I disagree,

Engineered Plague is the best answer against Goblins, it kills Goblins as soon as it resolves, it weakens the Goblins it doesn't kill, and it prevents Goblins from being cast. Forcing the opponent to SB in Krosan Grip is a good thing, because their removing 4 Goblins for a card that has no effect until after Engineered Plague resolves.

I've used Dark Confidant in all 4 formats, and I've been fine with Dark Confidant in Vintage Fish with just Brainstorm.

Duress is better than Meddling Mage against combo, Duress is B, Meddling Mage is UW, which makes it too slow on the draw and sometimes too slow on the play against Belcher or TES. Meddling Mage has a 33% chance of naming the correct win condition against Belcher and a 50% chance of naming the correct win condition against TES. The default target against TES is LED, and that just makes Meddling Mage a bad Null Rod.

I have higher win percentages with U/g/b than U/g/w against combo, that's the reason I don't bother to use U/g/w for anything other than testing purposes any more.

Cantrips aren't business, cantrips are cards in between business, the difference between having to cantrip for an answer and having an answer in hand is life and death against combo. That said, I don't have a problem with Portent, but using Predict, and not using 4 Dark Confidant, is just terrible.

I'm still not big on Tombstalker in this deck, but he is awesome in U/b/w and U/b/r from the looks of it, casting him on turn is insane if he doesn't interfere with the other threats in the deck.

Citrus-God

04-14-2007, 02:48 AM

There is a TON of incorrect information in this thread. I don't really have time to go through and correct it all right now, but I'll address what I can.

First of all, Black absolutely does not improve the quality of your removal. It doesn't. Ghastly Demise is strictly inferior to StP in every way, and this comes from someone who has used both at many, many times. The fact that it cannot answer a Negator or even an opposing Confidant is extremely relevant, and can lose you matches. To say that this is made up for by running Diabolic Edict is a fallacy, and at most it gives you more removal spells at the cost of cantrips or threats. It's blatantly obvious that Red has the most powerful removal package, because it doesn't run a single spell that is dead in the combo matchup. Burn can always fly at your oponent's noggin. While it doesn't have spot removal as potent as StP or Demise, it more than makes up for it in reach.

The point of running Black in this deck is to get the same natural strategy of both worlds, but has to run pseudo-counterparts of that removal because you cant expect to have both Swords and Clasm in the same deck without fucking yourself over. Ghastly Demise and Plague can at least do that, but not perform the greatest. If you run White, you weaken your Goblins MU, if you run Red you weakn your mirror MU. Black just forces you to weaken your Black-Tempo MU.

Also, Red spells have been kept at a minimum to avoid situations where they're dead, even if it's a clock. Burn weakens your game against Threshold and other scary Midgame decks.

Engineered Plague is a relevant point of contention, but remember that White has Tivadar's Crusade (or Hail Storm) and Red has PYROCLASM. Both are viable solutions to the Goblin Problem, and as Goblins is basically designed to deal with Plague now, I wouldn't count it as the strongest possible solution to the deck anymore.Tavadar's Crusade and Hail Storm's casting cost is way too demanding. Besides, in a deck like this, playng a Plague is basically playing a Clasm. It gives you diminant position in the Goblins match up. I realized that Vial Goblins is doing as much as it can to answer Plague, but it's the same as seeing a Port keeping you from White or Green, which keeps you from Crusade and Storm. Plague and Clasm only require one color to play, so trying to avoid being put off-colored isnt as much as an issue people think it is.

Haunting Echoes is AWFUL in Thresh. Notice that Thresh runs zero cards that cannot be played for 4 mana or less (3 with Werebear). This is for a reason. The control matchups you refer to will probably be either Loam decks, Landstill, or Wombat. Vs. the first two, you need to have 5 mana up on your Main Phase, which is an issue in itself when both decks rape your manabase, and then resolve Echoes through disruption (in the case of Landstill). Vs. every one of those decks, Armageddon is a Turn faster, supports your game plan better, affects the present board state, and disrupts your opponent more effectively.Against a deck like RG(b)SA, Rifter, Wombat, Mirror, Truffle Shuffle, LftL, and many others, what's the difference? The only difference between this and Armageddon is because it doesnt require set-up like Armageddon.

Deed + Nimble Mongoose = Not a combo.Neither is EE for 1 and Nimble Mongoose. In a deck where it replaces it's own creatures, it's easy for you to assume dominant position in the Midgame creature deck mirror.

As Dark Confidant is the most important part of the black splash (see the Herbig project - discussed here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4029)), all the huge guys and flashy win conditions drive up the potential for Bob to screw you. Even with just Force in the deck I get nervous. Some of you are even advocating cutting cantrips with Bob in the deck! The whole point of fitting him into the thresh shell was to utilize the natural knowledge of your top library card to make Bob free draw. Cutting Portent, Visions, or Brainstorm when they all make Bob better is a mistake. You don't really need Predict or Mental note as much anymore, but both are potent with or without Confidant in play.
I advocated cutting Bob. It's the removal I would much rather discuss however.

Duress absolutely is NOT better than Meddling Mage vs. Combo. I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not he's needed in UGw thresh with you, because that will go on forever, but let's say you have to choose one or the other. Duress is a temporary solution that takes the most pertinent threat out of their hand. This works into your game plan how? What are you planning to do in order to capitalize on that disruption? Play a cantrip and a Mongoose? Meddling Mage is a threat that they must answer to win the game, or slow down to play around. Either way, he buys you at least some time, where Duress may or may not. Note that this applies more to Non-TES combo decks, but is true there, as well, if you play tightly.No, Counterbalance is. Reasons why we dont run Duress anymore.

Portent vs. Mage - Mage disrupts your opponent starting turn 2. Portent draws you another counterspell that doesn't help vs. Storm. Note that I don't disagree that Portent is good, but I wouldn't choose it over Meddling Mage.Portent sets-up the game for you, whereas Meddling Mage disrupts their turn 2 blindly. Portent ensures that you set-up for a Daze, FoW, or Swords. Meddling Mage is just a weak body facing up against a Rotting Giant, whereas, Portent would've gave you an answer to that Giant in the first place.

Mage is ineffective vs. one combo deck in Legacy, TES. Any of the others, it's a house, and there is an obvious card to name, meaning Mage is never a Grizly-Therapy. Vs. TES.You name LED, and EtW will still bite your ass.

About Mage being a house versus every combo MU.... I realize, but do you really need it?

Using Mage against Solidarity is just simply a crutch; you should already be able to beat Solidarity, even without Mage. IGGy Pop is another easy match-up I've beaten without Mage before.

Black is imo currently a very strong color, but this deck is not really making use of its strengths very well. Instead of showcasing the best stuff like Deed, Hymn, Damnation, etc. you have Ghastly Demise. I'm not saying you should replace the demises with Hymn or something. They are there for a clear reason. But perhaps this deck needs to be seriously reworked when you consider what is going in and what is not being used at all.Again, this discussion is best left to the forums to decide whether those cards are redundant. Pernicous Deed from my testing, as been incredible. EE may be better if you want me to be honest, since it can answer Chalice and the Mox early in the game.

Ghastly Demise is good, but not strong. If there's a White Pyroclasm that costed W1, I think we might switch to White. Luckily Tarmogyof is coming out; this gives this deck an edge against Vial Goblins now, since Werebear was always so weak.

Brushwagg

04-14-2007, 11:12 PM

I advocated cutting Bob. It's the removal I would much rather discuss however.

What??? Cut Bob?? May I ask why? It's the best Cantrip ever, and if he stays for more then a turn it creates card advantage and forces your opponent to deal with it or lose.

@Removal:I've found that Ghastly Demise and Diabolic Edict to be the best options. I ran 4x Ghastly Demise and 3x Diabolic Edict. I tested alot of spot removal and these 2 where the best.

@Mass Removal:I've found that it was never really needed. With the card advantage and quality it never really became an issue, since I have a counter for something that was a real problem or a card to solve the problem ie:Needle or Naturalize.

While Black has alot of what seem to be nice things to offer, you really need to selective. It's really no different then the other color splashs.

Here's my list:

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
3x Dark Confidant

4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Mental Note
3x Night's Whisper

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Counterspell

4x Ghastly Demise
3x Diabolic Edict

SB
3x Engineered Plague
3x Naturalize (could be Krosan Grip)
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Open Slots

I was testing 2x Krosan Beast. Cutting 1 COunterspell and 1 Diabolic Edict. It was nice as a beater, but lacked evasion and sucked really bad without Threshold. Just throwing that out there.

Windux

04-15-2007, 01:31 AM

kicks_422

04-15-2007, 01:45 AM

Isn't Tarmagoyf red?

I've said it before and I'll say it again... The only thing that's keeping Black Thresh from rising into upper tiers is the lack of a good removal spell. Ghastly Demise and Diabolic are good, but nowhere near the versatility of Magma Jet/Lightning Bolt nor the power of StP. If Black gets efficient removal along those lines, this would become more popular.

Anarky87

04-15-2007, 02:02 AM

Isn't Tarmagoyf red?

Tarmogoyf http://mtgsalvation.com/images/image.png (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45721&stc=1&d=1176328003)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gifCreature - Lhurgoyf(TS) http://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/fs-R.gifTarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and it's toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal)
#153/180
*/1+*

kicks_422

04-15-2007, 02:18 AM

Whoops, my bad. :tongue:

Citrus-God

04-15-2007, 06:08 AM

And if your argument ist, that you can reveal a Tombstalker or Force, I can give you a hankie :P

I've played this deck for awhile. I hardly flip over FoW, so I wouldnt say that's a bad thing since it balances everything out. My problem is getting my board locked up against Fish and the mirror, and all Confidant can do is draw instead of swinging whil my opponent is under exhaust, but still is still maintaining a good stand on the board.

Happy Gilmore

04-15-2007, 12:39 PM

Future Sight is freaking awesome for Threshold decks.
I think the impact will be huge.

Here is what I would play:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Portent
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ghastly Demise
2 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Imp's Mischief

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosive
1 Counterbalance
3 Duress

As you can see it's very similar to Gilmores list. Why? Because it's awesome, if you not mention, that he don't run Confidants.

He is the reason to play the deck!
And if your argument ist, that you can reveal a Tombstalker or Force, I can give you a hankie :P

You are only running 16 lands in that build. And on second thought (after some testing) you really need Counterbalance to be in the board with Counterspell in the main. The inclusion of Bob is debatable imo, but Pithing Needle is on the other hand is not. You do not have access to the basic forest (or G mana from Bear) and you need an effective way to stop land hate and equipment spells.

Brushwagg

04-15-2007, 04:33 PM

The inclusion of Bob is debatable

There shouldn't even be a question. Bob is just too good not to include. I have only died to my own Bob once (Force of Will for to turns). The card advantage he grants this deck, hell any deck, needs to be answered. Not to mention he can block and swing.

@Tarmogoyf:I could easily see this and Werebear together in this deck. It could make up for the lack of playable creatures for the Black splash.

BreathWeapon

04-15-2007, 04:47 PM

There shouldn't even be a question. Bob is just too good not to include. I have only died to my own Bob once (Force of Will for to turns). The card advantage he grants this deck, hell any deck, needs to be answered. Not to mention he can block and swing.

@Tarmogoyf:I could easily see this and Werebear together in this deck. It could make up for the lack of playable creatures for the Black splash.

Does the deck need more threats than Werebear and Nimble Mongoose? I figured the deck would use Seton's Scout as a 4/3 that can trade with either other Werebear and Nimble Mongoose or Sea Drake and Serendib Efreet before it ran something else.

Even Krosan Beast isn't a terrible finisher.

Citrus-God

04-15-2007, 05:27 PM

He ran Krosan Beast for awhile actually. I'm tinkering with this right now since I'm open with all my personal projects...

// Lands 18
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island

// Creatures 15
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard 15
4 Engineered Plague
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dark Confidant

Janky as hell. Dark Confidant is easily good now. With Mental Note, draw power, and a higher threat density, this deck pressures just about any deck well in this format. Werebears 5-8 is awesome, and having access to Jittes in the Sideboard is just simply sick. Being able to fight Hanni Fish, Angel Stompy, and Survival decks is just simply savage. I look forward to seeing any variant that is strictly just 3 color UGb Threshold doing well in the future with Tarmogoyf coming out.

BreathWeapon

04-15-2007, 06:57 PM

I actually had a really similar list with MD Scout and Jitte awhile ago,

How good is the Lhurgoyf? No Artifacts and no Enchantments means the best he can do is 4/5, I'm sure he can grow faster than the other creatures can reach Threshold, 3/4 is average on turn 2, but just adding Drop of Honey and Engineered Explosives gives him 6/7.

Solpugid

04-15-2007, 07:18 PM

Anti~American, I love that list. Dark confidant definitely, in my opinion, needs to stay to make black splash worth while. However, I was also considering using tarmogoyf alongside mishra's bauble and predict. That gives the deck a) card advantage, and b) a way to make tarmogoyf bigger on your own (to 5/6). I've personally never been a huge fan of pithing needle main, as I would rather run extra removal, but that's just me.

Brushwagg

04-15-2007, 10:04 PM

@Anti:The list is looking good. But I think you need a secondary card drawer(I don't count BS, MN or SV). Either Night's Whisper or Predict(not a fan of it). That way you still can gain card advantage even if you don't have Bob.

-2 Needle main
+2 Night's Whisper

Also in the board I think you need some form of Artifact and Enchanment removal. I think it's more important then the Counterbalance plan. But it might just be me, I can never get that damn thing to work right.

@Night's Whisper:Here's why I suggest it, it's really simple. It will always draw you 2 cards and doesn't need a set up spell. Yes I know it's a sorcery, but I like the fact that it doesn't need BS or SV to get you the 2 cards.

Happy Gilmore

04-16-2007, 12:23 AM

There shouldn't even be a question. Bob is just too good not to include. I have only died to my own Bob once (Force of Will for to turns). The card advantage he grants this deck, hell any deck, needs to be answered. Not to mention he can block and swing.

@Tarmogoyf:I could easily see this and Werebear together in this deck. It could make up for the lack of playable creatures for the Black splash.

The life loss is not the issue, when he gets online he is wonderful but I would not necessarily call him a threat in the conventional sense. Whether you play him or not you are still going to need cantrips and more than likely Predicts as well. Bob does not help you create reach, a very important resource in certain matchups (survival comes to mind). Tombstalker/Mystic Enforcer/ Fledgling Dragon on the other hand can. And Tombstalker has the added advantage of dodging Dystopia while still costing only BB.

Citrus-God

04-16-2007, 03:18 AM

The life loss is not the issue, when he gets online he is wonderful but I would not necessarily call him a threat in the conventional sense. Whether you play him or not you are still going to need cantrips and more than likely Predicts as well. Bob does not help you create reach, a very important resource in certain matchups (survival comes to mind). Tombstalker/Mystic Enforcer/ Fledgling Dragon on the other hand can. And Tombstalker has the added advantage of dodging Dystopia while still costing only BB.

That's just sick right there. Dystopia cant kill him, and Tormod's Crypt doesnt make him crap.

Anarky87

04-17-2007, 06:17 PM

I've been tinkering with a deck of:

4 Strand
3 Delta (would be the other way if I had another Delta)
4 Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Goose
4 Bear
3 Confidant

4 FoW
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Demise
2 Edict

4 Brainstorm
4 Visions
3 Portent
3 Predict

2 Needle

The sideboard I'm still tossing around. I know I want 3 Plagues, 2 Crypts, 2 Winter Orbs (this smashed control for me this past Saturday when I was playing Witch Maw Thresh), 2-3 Naturalizes, and then some kind of tools for combo. So far the deck has been performing pretty solidly. I was able to beat Red Death one game by throwing down 2 Confidants and riding the 3 cards a turn to a win against his Anurid, Giant, Specter, 3x Hymn board.

I cut Whispers and put the Predicts back in because for me it's never hard to setup Predict when you run 11 other cards that manipulate your deck. And I've never been much of a Whisper's fan outside of T2. :wink: I do believe Tarmagoyf or whatever will help the deck out by just being independent of the GY for the most part, leaving only Mongoose as the Threshold dependent creature. I might like to try out 4 Goose, 4 Goyf, and 3 Bob here pretty soon.

Citrus-God

04-17-2007, 06:39 PM

Cut 2 Edicts and 1 Counterspell for a 4th Predict and 2 SDTs to incorporate Counterbalance in the board.

Brushwagg

04-17-2007, 07:40 PM

What's with the Counterbalances? I found it to be really weak. If you want more counters I would probably look at other options. Rune Snag comes to mind, since it fits in the deck pretty well and gets stronger in the late game. Just my though there.

@Tombstalker:This really needs to be tested. It's pretty cool that he can cost BB, which might be a problem. But the thing I don't like about it is, it has the potential to make the other beaters in the deck suck. But it seems to have potential.

@Anarky87:3 changes I would make, -1 Underground +1Trop. Since you pretty much always want green before U/G before Black. Get another Green source in there. Even if it's a basic forest. All your beaters have G in their casting costs. -1 Portent, +1 Predict. Predict is your secondary drawer, so you want 4x.

Anarky87

04-18-2007, 12:13 AM

@Brushwagg: Cool, I try those changes and see how it goes.

@Counterbalance: While I know this is awesome in the red and white splashes, I think it interferes with Confidant, since he doesn't let you really keep the right cards on top of your deck for Counterbalance. Granted, you could just keep a 1cc/2cc card on top for Counterbalance, but it seems like a lot of work.

@Tombstalker: While he does take away from your other creatures, a build that moves more toward Tarmagoyf in the Werebear spot would only be marginally affected by his alternate casting cost. Since you could simply remove the excess Instants/Sorceries in your yard, Tarmagoyf would still remain relatively beefy I believe.

Citrus-God

04-18-2007, 07:09 AM

What's with the Counterbalances? I found it to be really weak. If you want more counters I would probably look at other options. Rune Snag comes to mind, since it fits in the deck pretty well and gets stronger in the late game. Just my though there.

Counterbalance is godly, but only in the right match-ups. Sadly, when I'm at a tournament, against every non-Goblin match up, Counterbalance gets boarded in. It's just that flexibly strong.

Anarky87

04-18-2007, 08:57 AM

Counterbalance is godly, but only in the right match-ups. Sadly, when I'm at a tournament, against every non-Goblin match up, Counterbalance gets boarded in. It's just that flexibly strong.

And the deck might need something for the mirror and fish matchups other than Crypt. When 4 out of your 6 removal spells are dead against the creatures in the mirror (U/g/w), it's easy to fall behind. I played the matchup some last night and he was able to keep my Confidant off the table and then drop multiple Gooses and finally Enforcer.

Edit: But if you did run the Counterbalance engine, would your SB be similar to Red Thresh? Like:

4 Plague
3 Counterbalance
3 Control Magic
2 Winter Orb
2 Naturalize
1 Top

Citrus-God

04-18-2007, 11:39 AM

Pernicious Deed is better than Control Magic. When Mom is there to protect the board, Control Magic isuseless against Fish. Pernicious Deed can at least reset the whole board, and does it better than EE since it hits 4cc as well.

Brushwagg

04-18-2007, 10:27 PM

@Anarky87:Well I wouldn't judge results on 1 game. It happens, but over the course of several games you should come out slightly ahead.

@Mirror:I faced the mirror weekly(both White and Red), and that's why Diabolic Edict found it's way into the deck. Since it can hit Mongoose and Enforcer.

Deed is also useful in the Goblins and random weenie decks. I've found that the non-goblin aggro weenie match to be a really rough match. Deed can solve the problem.

Citrus-God

04-18-2007, 10:51 PM

Deed is also useful in the Goblins and random weenie decks. I've found that the non-goblin aggro weenie match to be a really rough match. Deed can solve the problem.

Other Weenie decks.... yes.... Goblins, it's too much of an investment, since it takes two turns for it to be good. I would much rather try and find Plague rather than use Deed to reset the board. Deed is good because it can combat decks like Angel Stompy, RGSA, and things like that, and turn the game over to your favor.

Brushwagg

04-19-2007, 09:43 PM

I agree with you there, I didn't make myself clear. Deed is good in the Goblin match, but not as good as Plague.

The nice thing is being able to pack both in your board.

BreathWeapon

04-20-2007, 12:14 AM

Pernicious Deed is also about the best Enchantment the deck can use to pump Tarmogoyf.

Citrus-God

04-20-2007, 09:34 AM

I agree with you there, I didn't make myself clear. Deed is good in the Goblin match, but not as good as Plague.

The nice thing is being able to pack both in your board.

I havent tested Deed against Goblins yet. It can turn a game around like how Pyroclasm can though.

Eldariel

04-20-2007, 09:43 AM

I havent tested Deed against Goblins yet. It can turn a game around like how Pyroclasm can though.

Even better as it wipes out Aether Vial and can be used at instant speed, thus avoiding any Warchief-shenanigans. Of course, the downside is vulnerability to Krosan Grip and the fact that unlike Clasm, if you really want to get power out of it, it'll wipe out your board.

Citrus-God

04-20-2007, 09:53 AM

It will suck being unable to play it when you have priority because the times when you play it will involve you having to pass the turn...

Brushwagg

04-21-2007, 02:41 PM

Eldariel

04-21-2007, 03:47 PM

I've used it aganist Goblins and ut was pretty good. Of course this is was before Split Second came around. As far as wiping out your board, you wouldn't play it unless you have too and if you have to kill some of your own creatures then your probably losing anyway.

The thing is, Pyroclasm or Tivadar's Crusade do not require wiping out your own board, which are the cards it's being compared to. Of course, it's much easier to cast than Tivadar's due to double coloured, but harder than Pyroclasm due to being two colours.

Citrus-God

04-22-2007, 04:23 AM

The thing is, Pyroclasm or Tivadar's Crusade do not require wiping out your own board, which are the cards it's being compared to. Of course, it's much easier to cast than Tivadar's due to double coloured, but harder than Pyroclasm due to being two colours.

Goblins will have to make a coin flip on keep you away from Black or Green. Chances are, they'll keep you off Black, and playing Deed is just making your answer to Goblins more of a constricting way to play around Wasteland.

Anarky87

04-22-2007, 07:36 PM

I've been testing this deck some (while pretending Werebear is Tarmogoyf) and does anyone else ever get land flooded alot? It just seems that when I lose games, it's because I've drawn a disproportionate amount of lands. Like, here recently, I beat UWb Fish in 2 games, but I ended the game with 6 lands in hand and about 5 on the board, even after a thorough shuffle. Not that I'm thinking about cutting land, but just something I've noticed.

Brushwagg

04-22-2007, 09:40 PM

Happy Gilmore

04-22-2007, 10:12 PM

Anarky87

04-23-2007, 12:03 AM

It happens. I like using Mental Note to clear unneeded lands from the top of my library. But I don't want to open that whole thing again, and it's the last you will hear of it from me.

@Tarmogoyf:I would like to hear how it's going. Since you went right into the land flood thing and didn't mention it again.

I think I might try out running Mental Note in the Predict spot or something. Right now I have a cantrip base of:

4 Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
3 Portent

And usually I use a Brainstorm to stick the extra land on top and then Predict it away, but Mental Note would let me strip both of them away and draw a card. What do you think of -4 Predict +4 Mental Note? It would cost 1 mana less to throw away useless cards like that rather than the 3 of BS/SV+Predict.

@Tarmogoyf: Sorry, I meant to touch on him and then I guess got distracted with the land flood. He's been testing out superbly. Depending on what deck you're playing against, he can just become a beast, thrashing through whatever he comes across. A definite inclusion upon FS legality.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-23-2007, 03:04 AM

@Tarmogoyf: Sorry, I meant to touch on him and then I guess got distracted with the land flood. He's been testing out superbly. Depending on what deck you're playing against, he can just become a beast, thrashing through whatever he comes across. A definite inclusion upon FS legality.

Seconded. That thing is a HOUSE! I've been having really awesome success with my build, which also runs Mental Note.

I have been testing Tombstalker as well, and I have to confess that so far it's been mixed. As independent fat, he's amazing. Delve eats up the grave, for sure, but with Tarmogoyf (i.e. without Werebear), it's not nearly as important. In fact, the ability to pick and choose what comes out is a real bonus with the Lhurgoyf, since you don't usually need to drop him down much--I find that I mostly remove lands with Delve (granted, I also run Mox Diamond, which is often a debateable choice). While he shortchanges my Mongeese sometimes, I've definitely enjoyed Tombstalker's presence. Not as a four-of, but certainly as a two (or three)-of to take Mystic Enforcer's slot from the UGW builds. I suppose that the fact that I also run Darkblast helps make him a lot more viable.

For reference, here's what I've been testing (it's far from optimal, and also slightly removed from your own decks; I just wanted to see what was going on--also, note changes made in the edits at the bottom):

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Mox Diamond

4 Quirion Dryad (now Wild Mongrel)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose (now 3)
2 Tombstalker (now 3)

3 Darkblast (now Life from the Loam)
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm (2 Brainstorm, 1 Mental Note, and 1 Strand are now Ghastly Demises, but could easily be Vendettas)
4 Mental Note

The biggest weaknesses, I think, lie in Quirion Dryad, Mongoose, and Darkblast.

Quirion Dryad: With Tombstalker, you obviously want to reduce graveyard dependence (a feat already achieved with the Lhurgoyf). Problem is, Dryad is a horrid topdeck, and it doesn't do all that much. Then again, it has the right cost, and it has potential. Werebear would probably be inferior, since it sucks without Threshold. The only other option I see would be Plant Elemental.

On the other hand, venturing into black gives you Rotting Giant (mmmno, Tombstalker hits our graveyard hard enough as it is), Blind Creeper, Drekavec, Raving Oni-Slave, and Wretched Anurid. Drekavec, Creeper, and Anurid may be worth exploring in this slot. I suppose FS brings Soultether Golem, but that doesn't seem like a great plan. No, my bets are more on Drekavec than anything. Drekavec allows you to dump Darkblast into the grave to generate dredge-advantage, or it gets rid of excess Diamonds. It can also pitch Deed or Plagues or whatever if you need the extra damage. It's really a perfect fit here.

Nimble Mongoose: I only included it because it relies on the graveyard, which doesn't mesh too well with Tombstalker. Still, it's worth keeping in. After all, this wouldn't be Threshold without it.

Darkblast: Awesome card, fits the deck like a glove, and it should stay. The problem is that, as removal goes, it isn't great. It needs to be supplemented by something better (like Ghastly Demise), but even then there's not much room for it. Perhaps the solution is to have Ghastly Demise occupy a cantrip slot...

Anyhow, that's it from me for now. Take a look and ignore it if that's what pleases you. :wink:

EDIT: After a little further testing, I have to say that I rather love Drekavec and Darkblast together. Also, cutting a few cantrips for Ghastly Demise seems to work well nonetheless.

EDIT 2: Again, for reference, to include Ghastly Demise and Drekavec, I went -1 Serum Visions, -2 Brainstorm (too many instans in the deck, need to maximize my 'goyf), and -1 Mental Note, and then +4 Drekavec, +3 Ghastly Demise. The Tarmogoyf consistently hits 4-5 counters, what with dreding Darkblast and so on. Drekavec also contributes by buring excess Diamons and even a Deed if necessary. Overall, I have to confess that I rather love these changes (and this deck).

EDITS 3 & 4: Updated again, added a Tombstalker and removed a Mongoose; then replaced Drekavec with Wild Mongrel, Darkblast with LftL, and added a Ghastly Demise (replacing a Strand). It runs VERY well. For reference, the new list:

1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Mox Diamond

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tombstalker

3 Life from the Loam
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Serum Visions
2 Brainstorm
3 Mental Note

Citrus-God

04-23-2007, 09:44 AM

I just don't see how Deed could be better than EE in any situation. It is substancially cheeper, can kill all 3cc permanents without killing anything you play, and it costs only :2: to kill ETW tokens and CotV.

Affinity, Stax, RG Survival Advantage (YES!!! SOMETHING EE CANT DO!), The Rock, Angel Stompy (Much better than EE in this MU).

I like Deed more due to it's crazy awesome flexibility. Sure it takes 3 mana to wipe the board of EtW tokens, but wouldnt you also rather have flexibility over efficiency and still have it be efficient?

lolosoon

04-23-2007, 02:44 PM

For reference, the new list:

1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Mox Diamond

4 Drekavec
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tombstalker

3 Darkblast
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Serum Visions
2 Brainstorm
3 Mental Note
I really like the Darkblast/Tarmogoyf interaction of your build.

I still have a question, why not include Street Wraith ? I dunno if the life loss is that revelant but it can power out an early 4/5.
A land (discarded or a Fetchland), a sorcery (mainly Serum's vision vs non-aggro deck), an instant (Daze, FoW, Brainstorm) could easily lie in your GY on turn 2, making your 'goyf 3/4. Cycling an early wraith makes it 4/5, bigger than a threshed bear.

Some old UGb Threshold use NightWhisper and didn't mind about the life loss. Sure you're drawing 1 less card, but it interacts better with the FS Lurghoyf.

Happy Gilmore

04-23-2007, 02:59 PM

EDIT 3: Updated again, added a Tombstalker and removed a Mongoose. It runs VERY well. For reference, the new list:

1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Mox Diamond

4 Drekavec
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tombstalker

3 Darkblast
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Serum Visions
2 Brainstorm
3 Mental Note

That list is not thresh, it may be running some of the same spells but it is in no way the same strategy. Tarmogoyf can become large natrually and needs no outside help from Mental Note/Darkblast. Darkblast is cute but I am not so sure how good it is. And Drekavec, that card is fucking horrible. Why would you consider something that gives you guaranteed card disadvantage? The changes you suggest are so radically different that I feel it deserves a seperate thread all together. Its an interesting idea to be sure.

Edit:
Dear god, 19 lands plus 4 mox diamond....thats what we call not a combo.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-23-2007, 04:03 PM

I still have a question, why not include Street Wraith ? I dunno if the life loss is that revelant but it can power out an early 4/5.

To be honest, I hadn't thought about it--too busy pitching in Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. :p

Street Wraith is definitely an easy way to pitch a creature (short of Dredge/Drekavec), which is great. And I agree, the life loss is negligible. Where it fits, I dunno yet. I've obviously not done extensive testing with the deck, just goldfishing and some more localized testing of certain matchups.

That list is not thresh, it may be running some of the same spells but it is in no way the same strategy.

You're right, it's not quite Thresh (although it mimics pretty much every aspect and card count more or less faithfully). The reduced (well, different) reliance upon the graveyard has coerced the deck into a much more aggressive role than its counterpart, while the inclusion of board control has also changed the control aspect from counterspells to interaction with the board. The question we must ask, however, is if this is not the natural evolution of Threshold--at least, as far as UBG Thresh is concerned. Many people advocate running Tarmogoyf over Werebear (and I'm among them, certainly). Once that's done, and you've converted to Black, what's left of traditional Threshold, really? I think that the switch to Black, coupled with Tarmogoyf, forces certain changes to the deck. Significantly, we now have a viable black fattie to replace Enforcer. Unfortunately, I don't know if it's possible to have a Thresh-with-Swamps any more. If you run Tombstalker, Werebear becomes more of a liability, which means that Tarmogoyf is preferable. Indeed, running Tombstalker, running Threshold-requiring cards is itself more of a liability than ever (although there were only ever eight to begin with, and there are now three). Wholly different deck, or natural evolution? Beats me. If enough people feel that the differences are significant enough to warrant a whole other thread, then I'm more than willing to go that distance.

Tarmogoyf can become large naturally and needs no outside help from Mental Note/Darkblast.

Perhaps. I'm not convinced that it can do so quickly enough. In any case, Mental Note and Darkblast are in that list for more than merely Tarmogoyf--they're there to power an early Tombstalker--as early as the second or third turns, often enough (provided you draw it, of course, and don't dredge it--perhaps a fourth is necessary after all. I dunno.).

Darkblast is cute but I am not so sure how good it is.

As I said, it's a weak link since it only works for one toughness. On the other hand, it works extremely well for powering out Tombstalker and then recovering from the Delve (so that the few remaining Mongeese aren't dead).

And Drekavec, that card is fucking horrible. Why would you consider something that gives you guaranteed card disadvantage?

With only 4 Tarmogoyf, 3 Nimble Mongoose, and 3 Tombstalker, I think that the deck would be too creature-light to countenance. Hell, even Threshold maindecks Meddling Mage (albeit more as utility than beatdown--but still). It needed something more, and Werebear is out of the question, since it's too fragile with Tombstalker (yes, I can recover from the Delve fairly easily--indeed, the Delve need not always be very deep--the point is that if I don't, a 1/1 Werebear leaves me seriously open). Accordingly, I wanted a more stable (read: independent) creature. In the two-mana range, as I explained, there were a variety of options. Drekavec, I feel, is the best of these--Rotting Giant eats up your graveyard too much, Wretched Anurid is less than stellar versus a number of Legacy decks, and Blind Creeper will not have a hard time dying. Soultether Golem will die without a fuss. Flesh Reaver is good, but the life loss will chew you up when you need to be making blocks. Accordingly, I chose Drekavec. I feel that the drawback is minimal, since you can use it to enable the Darkblast dredging that gives you Tombstalker (more importantly, you can do that on your first turn). It also gets rid of excess Diamonds/whatever, and acts as pinpoint graveyard-filling to feed Tarmogoyf if necessary.

Card disadvantage is obviously never good. On the other hand, I feel that the disadvantage is minimal in this case. I may be wrong, of course, but right now, I'm loving the Drekavec. A stable 3/3 for 2 is definitely what's needed in the slot. Whether or not the other options work any better can only be determined with time and testing.

Dear god, 19 lands plus 4 mox diamond....thats what we call not a combo.

Gotta start somewhere, right? Besides, I feel that the Diamonds are pretty important--they largely fuel the deck's awesome starts (ex. hitting Thresh with a Tarmogoyf in play on turn two). Granted, I've not tested exhaustively, but I've yet to regret the diamonds; they fuel the grave, are immune to Wasteland/Port/Sinkhole/Smallpox, and I've yet to have trouble with lands, due in large part to the cantrips.

Happy Gilmore

04-23-2007, 04:22 PM

Maybe it just sliped your mind but why Drekvec over Wild Mongrel?

Goaswerfraiejen

04-23-2007, 04:43 PM

Maybe it just sliped your mind but why Drekvec over Wild Mongrel?

Yup, didn't think of that.

Brushwagg

04-23-2007, 06:28 PM

WOW!! That list is NQNQG. Well not to get to off track, your lacking serious counter power and card drawing. While you do have cantrips (which I don't consider card drawing) you lack the extras draws (Dark Confidant and or Night's).

Some old UGb Threshold use NightWhisper and didn't mind about the life loss. Sure you're drawing 1 less card, but it interacts better with the FS Lurghoyf.

Night's Whisper was/is there to complement Dark Confidant. Bob is one of the best cards for UGB.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-23-2007, 07:26 PM

WOW!! That list is NQNQG.
[/b]

Not-quite-no-quarter-given? Sorry, I'm horrid with acronyms, and this one escapes me.

Well not to get to off track, your lacking serious counter power and card drawing. While you do have cantrips (which I don't consider card drawing) you lack the extras draws (Dark Confidant and or Night's).

It loses 2-3 Counterspell, gaining 2 Deeds instead. In many respects, I would consider Deed a better answer than Counterspell. Of course, Thresh is an established list--mine is a minimally-tested attempt to fit Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker into a more graveyard-independent build. Some lands could no doubt afford to be cut to accomodate a couple Counterspells, if it makes everyone happy. Again, I'm presenting a possible build, not a tuned list that I'm claiming PWNZ allzorz.

I'd also like to point out that standard Threshold lists tend not to run any non-cantrip draw, save for versions that MD Sensei's Divining Top (which can also be accomodated in my proposed shell, if you like) and the few that run AK.

Running Dark Confidant in such a build would be suicide, however. Running it in a deck with FoW alone makes me (and a number of others who have posted on this thread) nervous; imagine adding 3 8cc cards on top of that! Nope, bad idea. If you take out Tombstalker, you can perhaps justify Confidant. 'Course, remove 'stalker and you need to re-tool the deck I suggested for using him.

Night's Whisper was/is there to complement Dark Confidant. Bob is one of the best cards for UGB.

Your second sentence is a moot point; many of us would disagree, and have in this thread. Bob is not an auto-include in every black deck, though he does make the cut in most since he's so good. In such a deck as I have proposed, however, Bob cannot and should not make the cut unless you abandon the concept in part (at which point you still lack an effective, evasive finisher, although that can be dealt with). (I also suspect--but this is just me--that the life loss from Bob is too serious to recover from for a number of the more typical UGB Thresh lists' matchups, though I could well be wrong.)

Night's Whisper is of course a possibility, but what I dislike is that it sacrifices some of your early speed. Perhaps that speed is not necessary. Again, I don't know--I've presented a possible shell for black Thresh deck that mimics its rainbow antecedents. Perhaps it's unnecessary, and Bob-built Thresh decks with 2 more counterspells and a heavier reliance on the graveyard do better. I don't know, and make no such claims. Perhaps the shell is a bad idea and needs to be discarded--but let's at least discard it as a shell, rather than tool it for a few pages until it's back to the UGB list that more immediately springs to mind.

As I said, if it's deemed too unlike Thresh for this post, I'm more than willing to post it in Development and have it thrashed. The qustion that needs to be asked (due to Tarmogoyf's replacement of Werebear), however, is what makes Threshold "Threshold" if it isn't Threshold.

EDIT: Another thing that I'll acknowledge now, while I can, is that perhaps Darkblast is best replaced by LftL or a dredge-creature, given Wild Mongrel. I definitely think that a Dredger is necessary, though. Unfortunately, testing in this direction takes us even further away from Threshold.

LrdMcCaffrey

04-24-2007, 01:53 PM

WOW!! That list is NQNQG. Well not to get to off track, your lacking serious counter power and card drawing. While you do have cantrips (which I don't consider card drawing) you lack the extras draws (Dark Confidant and or Night's).

Dang it, I was gonna christen it NQGOT (Not quite grow or threshold), but i think Not Quite "Not Quite Gro" has more zip to it anyways.

On actual matters of substance, while NW might be runnable, Bob would probably be rather terrifying in a deck running not only the old set of FoW's, but Tombstalker and possibly Street Wraith. Terrifying much?

Other idea on draw, if you have Note+Mongrel+Darkblast, would be Deep Analysis. Pitchable to Fow and cheap draw from the yard, as well as being powerhouse in a late game stall-out. Just....slow.

I really like how this deck reduces Thresh's GY need. With Tombstalker and Goyf having much smaller yard needs and Mongrel not giving a wit whether there is anything there or not, Crypt is a much weaker answer.

There will be a good bit of list-thrashing-out in the weeks to come but I have a feeling the final deck will be a monster.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-24-2007, 02:00 PM

With Tombstalker and Goyf having much smaller yard needs and Mongrel not giving a wit whether there is anything there or not, Crypt is a much weaker answer.

The best part about Tarmogoyf is that he counts your opponent's graveyard as well, so Crypt doesn't affect him very much. At worst, he'll be a 1/2 from a lone crypt in an empty yard, but usually you're looking at a reduction in p/t of only one or two, and that only for a turn or so. The thing really is a house. He's definitely a breath of fresh air. :)

Oh, and thanks for clarifying the acronym. I suspected something of the sort, but couldn't be sure.

Happy Gilmore

04-24-2007, 02:04 PM

Tarmogoyf is around $3 and Tombstalker is $2 right now preorder.

:tongue:

Anarky87

04-24-2007, 02:30 PM

I already got a playset of Tarmogofy's for $4 and a set of Street Wraiths for Vintage for $2.99 on ebay. I'd buy stuff now since it's so low.

LrdMcCaffrey

04-24-2007, 04:59 PM

Mox Diamond I would probably cut. While the Land to GY thing is cute, you don't really need the speed and you REALLY don't need the card DA. Also, Diamond necessitates high land counts to regularly make your first few drops after Diamonding, and rock bottom land counts are one of the best aspects of Threshold style decks. If it's just to get land to GY, well, it's not like fetch lands aren't absolutely everywhere. If you don't happen to see one, you can bet your opponent will. (or their wastes).

Barook

04-24-2007, 05:57 PM

19 lands and 4 Mox Diamonds? :confused:

if you are really that keen on running artifacts that go easily into the yard to feed the Tarmogoyf, why not simply run Mishra's Bauble? comes down for free and cantrips - sounds like a good deal to me.

going T1 fetch, serum visions/brainstorm, bauble, T2 3/4 Goyf is very good and not that unlikely.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-24-2007, 06:07 PM

To be fair, Mox Diamond is less about the graveyard and feeding 'Goyf (those aspects are incidental) and more about increasing speed and resilience to Wasteland/Sinkhole/Port. Granted, it's not stellar with Deed. I'll also grant that it may not be necessary--I don't know. I can only do so much testing on my own, and I haven't gotten there yet. It's high on the list, but I'm against cutting it on principle, without any kind of comparative testing to back up the decision.

EDIT: Perhaps I should add it would seem like a good slot for Street Wraith to be tested in. I'll check it out, and shoul have a more conclusive answer in the next few days.

lolosoon

04-24-2007, 07:08 PM

going T1 fetch, serum visions/brainstorm, bauble, T2 3/4 Goyf is very good and not that unlikely.
I'm not fond with the Bauble.
I'd rather T1 Fetch, serum visions, FoW, Cycle Wraith. T2 Land + 4/5 Goyf with Daze in hand and start beating with Demise backup T3.

But, beside speculating on the best starting hand, don't you find the sorceries # to be a bit shy to feed the 'goyf ?! I mean, 3 Demise, 3 Visions ? I'ld at least up the SV to full set.

@Sorceries count : Has Duress its place MD ? With ETW, it seems combo (Belcher, TES, etc.) will be more present in Legacy. It only suck vs Gob (although, StP MD (Krosian Grip is doubtful) is possible and hitting vial on the play always good), which isn't a bad matchup anyway, is it ?

@Street Wraith, you do have to make rooms for them, they rock with goyf vs non-aggro deck and will speed up your clock (well, it will speed up your opponent's too :p ). Could we drop Drekavac for them, as this slot is debatable ?
Still, your effective threats would be too low imho, maybe we could add a 4th moongoose...

This deck is more UGb Fish than UGb Thresh imho, but whatever the name, it seems it have raw potential.

Happy Gilmore

04-24-2007, 09:18 PM

The deck that was posted utilizing cards that will not be available at the GP should not be discussed at this point since it can only be speculative. Furthermore, as I pointed out it is leaps and bounds different from standard UGB thresh. Let’s get back on topic with a list that will be legal for the GP.
This is basically Overlord95's UGB list that has proven itself in a tournament setting already.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Dark Confidant

4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict (I do not like Diabolic Visions or Nights Whisper)

3 Pithing Needle
4 Ghastly Demise

4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Tropical Island
4 Delta
3 Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

From this list I would suggest:
2 Serum Visions
+2 Sensei’s diving Top

Top has excellent synergy with Dark Confidant pre-board. Post board it actually hinders the Counterbalance engine slightly but is still very good. I would then Recommend a SB that can deal with goblin’s Chalice/crypt plan and can still answer the mirror which it has a disadvantage in.

SB:
4 E-Plague
3 EE
3 Counterbalance
1 Top
2 Krosan Grip
2 Stifle

E-plague is an obvious inclusion for its strength in the goblin match up and against other agro decks.

EE blows up Chalice, is good in the mirror, and has a lot of versatility built in.

Counterbalance is the obvious tool of choice in the mirror and against combo.

Krosan Grip gives you an answer to an opposing Counterbalance and is a excellent against various control decks, Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, etc.

Stifle might seem a little weak but it gives you more answers against crypt and an all around good card vs. goblins.

Discuss.

Citrus-God

04-24-2007, 10:54 PM

I dont think you need those Krosan Grips since you already have EE. I say cut the 3rd EE and 2 Krosan Grips for 2 Pernicious Deed, and the 3rd Stifle.

Anarky87

04-25-2007, 12:04 AM

I've been testing out a board of:

4 Plague
3 Stifle
2 Naturalize
2 Orb
2 Needle
2 Deed

I enjoy the Top/Counterbalance, but I've been finding myself less and less enamored with it like I was before. I know you need something for combo which my board lacks outside of Stifle, but it only does so much.

Does everyone still feel Needle MD is needed? It gives you an edge on Goblins against Vial, Port, and Waste as well as Siege-Gang and Incinerator, but outside of Goblins, is it really all that useful? I played 2 MD in my 4c Thresh at a recent tournament, but found them dead for the most part, save for 1 time I just randomly Needled a SoFI because I could, even though he had 4 other equips out, but no creature, and when I finally played against Goblins in the T4. But that was it and I sided them out alot. Are they just there to give you the edge game 1? Maybe I just answered my own question somewhere in there. I suppose I could try them out again.

I've been running Mental Note over Predict here recently and it has seemed to perform well, though I might cut the 3rd Counterspell for the 4th Portent. I'm also running Edict MD as well, because I like the extra outs it gives you and a way to deal with Mongoose and Enforcer.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-25-2007, 01:55 AM

Brushwagg

04-25-2007, 05:40 PM

@Needle MD:I've pretty much always put it in the board and used more creature removal in it's place. Since your probably going to to be facing a deck that uses creatures (unless your really un lucky).

Also out combo match isn't totally bad. We do have 4x FOW, 3x Daze, 2-3x Counterspell. When facing combo, I try to not counter to much until they are ready to go off, and you really only need 1-2 Geese to go the distance.

@Bob:Yes the deck run 4x FOW, so what. Thats 4 cards in a 60 card deck, and that's not including Serum Visions, Brainstorm, and Predict/Mental Note that help fix the top of your library. Have I ever flipped FOW with Bob, yes. But they are few and far between. I played this deck alot for months and only dies to my own Bob once. The clock is fast enough so the life loss is not an issue, plus Bob becomes a big target for removal so more often then not he's going down.

b4r0n

04-25-2007, 06:10 PM

I like Needle MD. It answers a lot cards proactively, decreasing reliance on countermagic, and it answers problems that counterspells can't deal with.

Regarding Ghastly Demise: Most of the lists in this thread seem to be running Demise. However, it seems to me that Ghastly Demise is definitely worse than StP, and arguably worse than Lightning Bolt since it can't be used as direct damage. Without a fetchland, it can't answer Lackey on the draw, and while better than Bolt in the mirror, it still seems a bit weak. For me, at least, the lack of sufficient removal makes me hesitant to splash black.

Is Demise's conditionality a problem?

thefreakaccident

04-25-2007, 11:50 PM

I had similar concerns with the deck when I played with it... just about any deck with black creatures running around becomes an issue... that's why I ran 6 removal spells, 3 demise (which is awesome against non-black) and 3 edict (this changed to D.blast depending on what was going to show up)...

Dark blast is awesome against weenie, stompy (angel + 9 land), and goblins (the main reason for consideration); but it is very cnarrow in its' abilities... edict is excellent against untargetability (i.e. seeing another mongooes on the other side of the table) as well as pro black cards (Akroma you whore!!!).

To be honest, besides demise there really isn't a well enough rounded creature removal spell we could run... this makes me sad :cry: .

Perhapes I have overlooked something, but the 1cc terror doesn't work that well all the time (but most of the time).

Goaswerfraiejen

04-25-2007, 11:58 PM

The only other real alternative to Demise and Darkblast is Vendetta, which can be... unfortunate when coupled with fetch & Confidant damage.

Bardo

04-26-2007, 03:25 PM

I've skimmed this thread and like the idea of dredge deck quite a lot. Testing Tarmogoyf the past few days showed me the guys is freaking nuts.

My current list:

Witch-Maw Dredge
by Bardo

4 Meddling Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
1 Street Wraith

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

3 Ghastly Demise
2 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague (vs. Goblins, Slivers, tribal & ETW decks)
4 Duress (vs. combo & control)
3 Loaming Shaman (vs. Threshold, dredge, Reanimator, Tog)
2 Hydroblast (vs. Goblins, RDW/Sligh, pitch-fodder for Fow)
2 Life from the Loam (vs. Deadguy, LD.dec, etc.)

You can see my development notes in the thread I started at TMD for this deck: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32828.0

Brushwagg

04-26-2007, 09:24 PM

@Targeted removal:I've tested pretty much everything that Black/Black Green had to offer. My list is in the Old old UGB Gro thread. But to cut to the point, Ghastly Demise and Edict are your best options for now. While Ghastly Demise does have it's limits it's the best and when you add in Diabolic Edict you can pretty much take anything down.

@Bardo:I don't think the list belongs here, but I like the direction your going. That said I do have a couple of problems with it.

1.The mana base is scary. Wasteland and or Ghost Quarter will just tee off on it. Is 4 colors worth it? If so why run Ghastly Demise over STP? You can get cut off from either Black or White, but isn't STP better?

2.I thinking you might need some sort of actual card draw. Night's Whisper, Predict, hell even Dark Confidant. The thing that really turned me on to UGB Gro, was the fact that it could actually draw alot of extra cards. More then either of the other 2 colors. That's the real strength of the Black splash.

I suppose I should address why I suggested Bob. Ok in Bardo's list he has some scary mana costs, yes. Out of 60 cards you have 6 total cards that do 5 or 6. Very low odds of flipping one. Now lets add in Brainstorms Serum Visions, and Mental Note. These cards drop the odds even further. But lets be realistic here, are you going to flip one of these, YES you are, but on average this deck, or even regular UGB Gro, can end the game before it becomes an issue.

BreathWeapon

04-26-2007, 09:45 PM

The charms are both worth considering, removing Xantid Swarm and then being able to recur it to discard the Infernal Tutor in the Ill Gotten Gains chain is a boost against combo, the cards removes Goblin Lackey and Dark Confidant, the card adds 2 damage, the card "Cycles" and the card gives evasion to Tarmogoyf. The blue charm is better than the black, but both of them are MD and SB considerations, taking into account that all of the cards this deck uses against Goblins should double as cards to be used against Combo (boot Pithing Needle for Null Rod)

thefreakaccident

04-26-2007, 11:26 PM

I actually like the charm idea... not only is it a good lackey answer, its' blue for FoW and isn't dead in the combo MU.

but the restristions reman the same, being just an x/1 killer isn't all that great epsecially for a mid ranged game.

I know that edict is pretty good some of the time, but it is never all that great when they have multiple creatures on the board... you never want to give your opponent the choice of what's gunna go (if you catch my drift)...

The first time I played with the black splash I got second at my local tourney... out of 30 ppl (loosing to rodrigo Gonzalaz and his reanimator !?)..

the next time I played with it I went 0-2 drop... playing against pikula first round, and mono-black stompy second round (it was a pseudo-sui d3ck)...

we could look towards more high cc creature removal...
We could run plague MD, giving us a good goblin MU, as well as good games against anything that likes to have a couple x/1s running around..
just an idea though!

I know it's gunna sound stupid, but could we use putrify in the board at all, for stompy hate of sorts? or is its' high cc too much to ask for?

Bardo

04-28-2007, 12:17 PM

Okay, I've done a bit of tinkering with this build. I like the 4-color version above splashing for Meddling Mage, but let's take a step back. The following is an amalgation of my White-splash Threhsold and Gro-a-Tog lists:

U/B/g Dredge-a-Thresh

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell (or +2 Duress)
2 Duress (or +2 Counterspell)

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother (or Ghastly Demise)
2 Pithing Needle (or Cunning Wish)
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose (or Dark Confidant)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tomb Stalker

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Island

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
some combination of:
Hydroblast
Extirpate
Duress
etc.

There's a lot of open spaces. The mana I'm pretty much behind, but this deck really wants some kind of Bayou-fetchland (it's really just a matter of time...) Otherwise, there are a ton of slots needing testing to find what's optimal.

from above:

@Bardo:I don't think the list belongs here, but I like the direction your going. That said I do have a couple of problems with it.

1.The mana base is scary. Wasteland and or Ghost Quarter will just tee off on it. Is 4 colors worth it? If so why run Ghastly Demise over STP? You can get cut off from either Black or White, but isn't STP better?

The mana is totally scary, but again, I was just ripping off the Summersburger 1st place Lille deck, which ran 0 basics. I don't have the balls for that, hence -1 dual +1 Island. :)

Re: Ghastly Demise over StP. The whole point of splashing for Meddling Mage is to shut down StP, so I'm not going to run it. As for Edict, I think it's bad--smother seems much more useful. Ghastly Demise is a consideration, just on account of its cost.

b4r0n

04-28-2007, 02:44 PM

Re: Ghastly Demise over StP. The whole point of splashing for Meddling Mage is to shut down StP, so I'm not going to run it. As for Edict, I think it's bad--smother seems much more useful. Ghastly Demise is a consideration, just on account of its cost.

I don't think that this is a good idea. Swords is so much better than Demise that it doesn't seem worth cutting such a strong card on the possibility that a) you get paired against a deck with white, b) you draw Mage, and c) you actually want to name Swords with that Mage. It seems better to just run StP (as it really does solve many of the problems that U/g/b has). If you're running additional removal, you could side Swords out in the mirror to achieve a Summersberger-esque effect.

For what it's worth, here's my take on U/g/b/w. It's a bit different than Bardo's.

Land:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

Creatures:
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark Confidant
1 Mystic Enforcer

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

It might be worth going -4 Portent +4 Mental Note, -4 Werebear +4 Tarmogoyf, but I haven't had the chance to play around with that yet. Thoughts?

Citrus-God

04-28-2007, 04:39 PM

And here's my 4c list as well...

// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

// Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Dark Confidant
1 Mystic Enforcer

// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
3 Serum Visions
3 Predict
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard 15
4 Enigneered Plague
3 Pernicous Deed
3 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Jedit Ojanen of Efrava <- TECH!!!!

Props to Jeremy Zwirn for the tech....

Nihil Credo

04-29-2007, 06:58 AM

Jedit's tech against what exactly?

Citrus-God

04-30-2007, 12:31 AM

Whatever the hell that is running Green?

Windux

05-03-2007, 08:41 AM

My "tech" would be, NOT to run 3 Tundra just for ONE Mystic Enforcer and instead play some Basiclands ;)
Jeah, Basic Lands = Tech!

Citrus-God

05-03-2007, 10:04 AM

My "tech" would be, NOT to run 3 Tundra just for ONE Mystic Enforcer and instead play some Basiclands ;)
Jeah, Basic Lands = Tech!

Fine....

-1 Tundra

+1 Plains

But it's for Swords to Plowshares too...

Brushwagg

05-05-2007, 09:46 PM

Ok, with the whole Hulk/Flash stuff going on, I redid my list. It's changed alot, and un-tested as of yet, but I think it can beat combo pretty good, and still have other positive match-ups.

UBG NQG "The other flavor" Pre Future Sight

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
3x Dark Confidant

4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x Predict

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2/3x Counterspell
3x Trickbind/Stifle

4x Ghastly Demise/Diabolic Edict
3x Duress/Extirpate

Lands
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

SB
3x Engineered Plague
3x Pithing Needle
3x Naturalize/Krosan Grip
3/4x Leyline of the Void
2/3x Engineered Explosives or Extirpate

Like I said un-tested as of yet but it will be get done.

Some card choices. I'm not going into the no duh ones.

Predict:Some of you might be this is a "no duh" card. But for me I've never been a fan of this card at all. But with the rise of Flash/Hulk, it serves two purposes. 1.Getting you Threshold. 2.Cutting them off from what they just tutored for.

Trickbind/Stifle:I went with Trickbind because of the Split Second. Stifle is also a very good option, but can be countered. Both are good in EVERY combo match-up.

Duress:Good at hitting combo pcs in hand. But I am torn if I should run Extirpate at all. I've seen it action, but what I really want in this slot is a card that's useful no matter the match-up.

Leyline of the Void:Really deciated to stopping the Hulk/Flash combo. But can be brought in the Gro mirror.

Engineered Explosives:Not sure if this needed, but with all the Empty the Warrens, and DOJ running around lately it seems to be needed.

Anarky87

05-06-2007, 02:26 PM

I would probably roll with Stifle. Even though it can get countered, Trickbind does cost 2 and whether you get that much time, I don't know. I think I'd go with Duress too. Extirpate can hit a lot of cards, but unless you're able to out counter them going off, you'll only be hitting tutors or draw spells. But maybe that's not so bad, and it might be more solid in other matchups:

4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Counterspell
3 Duress

Then you standard 4-ofs for Visions, Brainstorm, and Predict:

4 Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict

4 Ghastly Demise

-Ugb Thresh-

4 Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Confidant

4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Duress
3 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Visions
4 Predict

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Delta
3 Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

I like your board as well. I'm not sure about the 3rd Counterspell, but I had 1 card left after everything, so I just added the 3rd one in.

Brushwagg

05-06-2007, 10:10 PM

Well my list is un-tested as of yet. The numbers are probably going to change.

I still not sure what is going to prove more useful over all Duress or Extirpate. Both have there pros and cons which will get answered.

@Stifle:I'm probably going to go with since it is a 1 CC. I was throwing out Trickbind and a very solid option though.

aTn

05-11-2007, 11:46 AM

I'm sure the following has been already brought up.

With Leyline in the air, I don't like my pin-point creature removal to be graveyard dependent (and I don't want to waste slots with stuff like P. Deed, not maindeck anyways). Since Wastelands might see less play these days and since we now run Stifle maindeck (to stop an eventual Wasteland if need be), as anyone thought of splashing red or white to play UGBr or UGBw-Thresh ? White could give access to Stop and Meddling Mage (which rocked in my testing of Post-FS-UGW-Thresh vs. Post-FS Hulk-Flash); red on the other hand would give access to... well nothing of much relevance since we have acess to E. Plague (I might be dead wrong here).

Brushwagg

05-11-2007, 07:51 PM

Making it 4 colors has been discussed in another thread. I know Mr.Nightmare(UGWB) and Wastedlife(UGRB) tired it. I was never sold on the whole 4 color thing.

@Removal:More then likely to become Diabolic Edict. Since it's the next best thing Black has for this deck. I've tested everything that seemed playable, and some not so.

@Leyline:This has really go me thinking. Dryad might have to come into all Threshold decks since, it's not graveyard dependent. Which is kind of :(. That is if green is going to be really needed.

Anarky87

06-05-2007, 12:45 PM

Has anyone done any more with this deck? I've been tinkering with it off and on between playing Landstill. This is what I've been working with:

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Counterspell

4 Ghastly Demise
3 Diabolic Edict

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict

-SB-
4 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Winter Orb

I'm not sure about my board, I just included a lot of things I thought I needed. Orb and Needle for control, Explosives for the mirror, Duress for combo, Grip against Crucible/Leyline, and Plague against Goblins (Duh) and other tribal themes, like Soldier tokens.

In the MD, I upped Bob to 4, because I always want to see him and he always seems to get nuked right off the bat, so I wanted the extra copy. Because when he sticks, he's insane. The control base I kinda left as it was when Flash was legal. So you have 12 counters, which is more than the mirror or Fish, and Stifle helps against random triggers, like in Goblins, against Fetches, Deed, Explosives, etc. I haven't run into a lot of Leylines, and I think after Flash, there won't be a need for them really. The only time I played against it was when I was playing them on the other side in testing. Let me know what you think, I have to go to work.

b4r0n

06-05-2007, 02:15 PM

The first thing that jumped out at me was the cantrip base, since most builds that run Predict use 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, and 4 Portent. Have Brainstorm and Serum Visions been enough to support Predict? Would Mental Note or even Portent be better?

Have you considered Engineered Explosives maindeck, perhaps over Edicts? While they may be slightly expensive, they are much more versatile. I would strongly recommend them, especially since you don't run Pithing Needle maindeck; EE answers otherwise problematic cards like Aether Vial or Survival of the Fittest. Additionally, Explosives would pump your Tarmogoyfs and make your Bobs slightly less painful.

The sideboard looks pretty good. If you decide to bring EE to the maindeck, perhaps those two slots could be replaced by a third Grip and a third Needle.

Brushwagg

06-05-2007, 09:28 PM

Well to be honest, no I haven't really been doing anything as of yet with this deck. I'm still not sold on Tarmogoyf but seems ok. Also there isn't really too much I'd change in your list. I would go -1 Bob +1 Tomstalker (maybe 2) and change the Predicts to Mental Note.

I'm going to have to get this back together.

freakish777

06-05-2007, 10:11 PM

How about Counterbalance in the main over Counterspell? It gives you 2 reasons to run SDT over say Serum Visions, and gives you 2 fairly strong ways to generate card advantage (Conf + Balance), additionally it allows you to beat certain strategies that you otherwise could not (Loam, certain board control decks, etc). Granted it's not as good as a straight up counterspell against Goblins, but it's likely better than a counterspell against enough of the rest of the metagame to be worth running main.

EDIT: Not that this should be a selling point for running the card, but Mental Noting/Predicting one away gives your Tarmagoyf +1/+1 that it otherwise doesn't get in this deck.

EDIT 2: Also, for unknown metagames I like Deeds in the board, they're usually good against aggro decks that didn't see it game one, and they absolutely wreck Affinity.

Brushwagg

06-23-2007, 11:02 AM

GO GO NECRO POWER!

Well I finally got a list I really like. I think the SB needs a little work, but whatever.

4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker

4x Brainstrom
3x Serum Visions
4x Mental Note

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Counterspell
3x Duress
1x Extirpate

4x Ghastly Demise
2x Engineered Explosives

SB
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Duress
3x Stifle
2x Pithing Needle

Well I when with more of a setup for combo since with TES, CRET Belcher and what not seeing more and more play. I do need to test the random aggro match. I'm hoping that I can just crush them with bigger creatures. However Survival might be a problem.

@Extirpate:I had one open slot main deck and wasn't sure what to put there. It could become another Duress or something, but being able to hit a problematic card seemed good.

The one thing I don't like is the lack of secondary draw. Out side of Bob I really have none. So I need to do some testing to see if it's really going to be an issue or not.

@Tarmogoyf:In the few Goldfishing games I did, it was easy to get him big and not totally hose him whem Tombstalker came down.

@Tombstalker:Fits nice. Really only hurts Goose and sometimes Demise. But really easy to fill the yard back up.

Berzerked

06-24-2007, 02:01 AM

Scarily similar to my list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Force of Will
3 Duress
3 Stifle
3 Daze

SB
3 Hydroblast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Loaming Shaman
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tombstalker

I max out Confidant because I consider him the best creature in the deck - constantly drawing you into more threats/disruption. Also, he usually dies immediately.
I've always had a problem with Mental Note. Yes, it gets you thresh quicker, but this deck (with Goyf) relies less on the mechanic anyway, and can be considered closer to Grow. It doesn't provide card quality at all, and can even trash cards you were looking for, which is why I prefer Sleight of Hand or Portent. Portent works very well with Confidant. Mental Note might work better with 2 Stalkers, though.

I was also testing a build with Counterbalance that offers more draw:
-3 Stifle
-3 Duress
-4 Portent
+3 Counterbalance
+3 Sensei's Divining Top
+4 Predict
It worked well, but wasn't quite aggressive enough for my liking.

Brushwagg

06-24-2007, 08:35 PM

My list does need some alittle tweaking. As I said above I still think I need a secondary drawer other then just Bob. I use to run Night's Whispers which was really good. But sadly I couldn't find the room.

@Tomstalker:This guy needed should have been printed like 10 sets ago. Love it so far.

@Mental Note:I never liked Predict much. More often then not it got stuck in hand with me not knowing what the top card of my Library was. So I've always pretty muched used Mental Note. Also MN fills the yard up fast after a TS or some getting hit with Crypt.

Solpugid

06-24-2007, 11:58 PM

Running the single forest always seemed kinda pointless to me without any fetches to retreive it from your deck. I would cut it for another underground sea. I also don't feel so comfortable about tombstalker being in there with Bob, especially with so few setup spells.

The problem is, switching note for portent helps Bob but then hurts tombstalker (fewer cards in the grave). With note you help stalker, but run the risk of just killing yourself. For this reason I think you should either switch tombstalker with quirion dryad (this loses you evasion, though) or get a few divining tops in there to make Bob less...lethal.

Also, additional draw is not very needed as long as you can play the deck's role well. The current configuration you guys are testing is very aggressive, so extra draw seems less relevant. If you really want card advantage you may want to consider vedalken shackles. The card really is amazing game 1 against creature decks, as they very rarely have a way to kill it, and it makes combat favorable for you.

Berzerked

06-25-2007, 02:27 AM

Running the single forest always seemed kinda pointless to me without any fetches to retreive it from your deck. I would cut it for another underground sea. I also don't feel so comfortable about tombstalker being in there with Bob, especially with so few setup spells.
True dat. When I jacked Bardo's manabase but dropped the Windswept Heaths, I didn't even consider that.
I've flipped a Stalker a total of 1 time in all of my testing, and (strangely enough) I still won that game. Honestly though, I thought it would be a problem too, but with only 1 copy and 12 (not THAT few) setups, it's not that big of a deal.

The problem is, switching note for portent helps Bob but then hurts tombstalker (fewer cards in the grave). With note you help stalker, but run the risk of just killing yourself.
Since Confidant is a 4-of, and I love drawing cards that help me win, I stick with Portent over Note, which really only helps 1 card that significantly.

If you really want card advantage you may want to consider vedalken shackles. The card really is amazing game 1 against creature decks, as they very rarely have a way to kill it, and it makes combat favorable for you.
What would you suggest cutting?

Solpugid

06-25-2007, 09:27 AM

Oops. Sorry, I read your comment about your deck being similar to Brushwagg's and I saw note where portent currently is. No, I think your deck has enough manipulation for me to feel comfortable. I intend no offense to anyone, just that I personally don't like that little anti-synergy without portent around.

If I was to make room for shackles I would cut stifle rather quickly. I used to run it maindeck in my Ugw build, but I found it lacking too often. It's good against storm combo, but that matchup is already favorable (especially with EE; more on this in a second). It's good against goblins, but so is shackles if you can steal a warchief or something. It's, unfortunately, fairly weak against the mirror, stax, landstill, loam decks, and survival. Anyway, I think you get my drift. I would move at least one stifle to the board and stick a shackles in there.

Engineered explosives is actually the card tht made me reconsider running the black splash. In the past I had so many issues with the deck, but mainly for two reasons: lack of a good finisher and lack of solid removal. Ghastly demise just can't do it all on its own, so I dismissed the deck as worse than the white or red splashes. Then I randomly remembered EE and when I look at this thread two people had already included it...awesome. With tombstalker (or even tarmogoyf) adding a massive finisher, I think this deck can finally become viable.

Nihil Credo

06-25-2007, 06:56 PM

For what it's worth, I've hybridized the two lists, changed the SB and been really pleased with the result:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [PR] Underground Sea
4 [PR] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [PR] Brainstorm
4 [PR] Force of Will
4 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [IA] Portent
3 [NE] Daze
3 [PR] Counterspell
4 [JU] Mental Note
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PR] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PR] Duress
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Brushwagg

06-25-2007, 07:12 PM

@Solpugid:None taken. As I have said over and over again though about Bob.

It's only 5-6 cards now(depending on #of Tombstalkers) out of 60. Before he came around people freaked out about having FOW in the deck. While you do flip 1 every once in a while, unless your name is Nightmare, but you do have a FOW in hand now. Also the clock has gotten alot faster now. So it makes up for the damage you will take from Bob.

Berzerked

06-25-2007, 08:26 PM

I'm not sure if I still like Counterspell. With this build I like to apply as much pressure as possible early on, and then instead of hanging around with mana open, since we have Bob, apply more pressure throughout the game.
That being said, Stifle has been a wonderful inclusion. Being able to Stifle a fetch on the play, and then drop Bob is insane. Also, it is rarely dead.

@everyone: Apparently you guys are loving dual Stalkers. I've never tested it, and to be honest I never even considered it. Has two really been that impressive?

I like Deed in the board, by the way. It seems like a way to not auto-lose to Stax.

Maybe something like this takes everything into account:

17 land

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterbalance

3 Duress
2 Stifle
1 Vedalken Shackles

Brushwagg

06-25-2007, 09:37 PM

@Tombstalkers:I like two since if one takes the dirt nap or is sent to the farm you have another one. I guess I like having two fatties that fly.

@Counterspell:You know I almost left it out of my list also. I'm looking into if if's needed at all along with Extirpate.

@Berzerked: Seems like it might be tough for you to fill the yard. Do you see that as a problem? If not how long does it usally take you to get to seven in the yard?

Berzerked

06-25-2007, 10:01 PM

Ya, I average thresh on turn 5-6...which I guess kind of does suck.

Solpugid

06-25-2007, 10:28 PM

I decided to actually try to back up the comments I've been making by throwing a decklist together. This is what I tried out:

4 Polluted delta
3 Flooded strand
4 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark confidant
2 Quirion dryad

4 Force of will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Ghastly demise
3 Duress

4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
3 Serum visions

2 Engineered explosives
1 Vedalken shackles

I decided to hybridize black Thresh and Gro (i.e. no tombstalker). The deck performed very well, though a few things stood out. First, even with such low cost spells, confidant hurt me badly. Against certain decks this didn't make much of a difference, but against decks like goblins I just threw him out to block. This makes me slightly question using him alongside stalker. I will test that duo though, I promise.

I also found out how great dryad is in here. My opponents can focus their removal and blockers on tarmogoyf, but having those addition huge beaters is fantastic. They usually grew bigger than goyf, even when drawn later in the game. Vedalken shackles is another card I don't know how I did without. The singleton shackles saved me so many times, though it is a tad mana intensive for the early game. The great thing is, it allowed me to "remove" creatures I otherwise couldn't, like nantuko shades and opposing Bobs.

Engineered explosives was good and bad. The majority of the time it performed well, but other times I'd draw it with a mongoose and goyf on the board, and I wouldn't really want to pop it at any setting. I do, however, still think it belongs maindeck. Interestingly, this is one time I really wished I had tombstalker, since I could play him and never worry about EEing him away.

Duress has been consistent poop for me. Against board control or landstill it removes a big threat, true, but those decks usually shrug the loss off. At one point I duressed and saw deed, haunting echoes, and hymn...I took the hymn, thinking I could counter the others, but it still felt so hopeless. Against goblins and other aggro it can hit cards, but again never feels strong enough. I think I'll try filling out my cantrip base with this slot, and the exra card can become...I dunno.

Oh, and by the way, I think I like chill in the board over engineered plague for the goblin matchup. If I can counter vial and then drop a chill they have a very tough time mounting an offense before goyf comes down. That, and the random burn matchup is improved. Three mana, I think, is too much for what a single plague does to goblins, as you really need two to stop them. Six mana in this deck can be hard to spare at times.

Brushwagg

06-26-2007, 08:30 PM

Dryad is kinda meh to me. Yes it is usable and can get out of control, but lacks flying or something.

@EE: Why would you want to drop it with a Thresholed (I'm assuming) and a Goryf? I mean it does depend on how big they are but I'm can't see wanting to drop it there. I agree it stays main deck with Empty the Warrens running around.

@Bob:I've always been a huge advocate of Dark Confidant in this deck. Hell even with the Tombstalkers. Call me crazy or whatever but I feel the extra cards in hand far out weigh the life loss. Just remember the only life point that matters is your last 1. The other 19 are just resources to use.

@Duress:Like I said I'm gearing toward more combo. If your in a Goblin heavy meta I would suggest Diabolic Edict or some thing else there.

@Chill:Not a very good answer to Goblins at all. Vial is one thing to worry about, then you have Lackey. Also they can just go for the LD plan and save mana up to cast stuff. Where Plague just kills them dead. Sure you need 2 to just shut them down, but not having to worry about a good portion of thier deck with one is really good. Plus 3 mana should not be a problem. You might have to send a Goose to kill a Lackey but I'll make that trade any time.

Ya, I average thresh on turn 5-6...which I guess kind of does suck.

Ya a little slow. You might want to work on that some. At least give Predict a try.

Berzerked

06-26-2007, 09:51 PM

@Solpugid
That list looks very solid, and a good shell to work with. I agree with Brushwagg that Dryad is less than spectacular, however. If it's been testing well then I'll give it a go myself, but in the past it hasn't been too great.

What about brainstorming other men for that slot:
Shadowmage Infiltrator has always had a place in my heart. He compliments Bob, is a decent blocker, and provides game-winning card advantage against aggro-control and control. His offense is a bit lacking, but he draws into more threats, so I can't decide if he actually makes the deck more aggressive or not.
Trygon Predator might be some good tech, if you notice a lot of artifacts/enchantments becoming a problem. Especially those god damn Chalices, though EE takes care of most problems.
Psychatog + Darkblast might be a nice fit. I've always liked playing with Tog as an aggressive beater rather than just a finisher (though he serves that purpose as well). Darkblast would help fuel him and thresh a little bit, and provide a small edge against the more common weenie decks I keep seeing (Fish especially, but even against Goblins it works, and allows a single Plague to shut them down).
Then there's always good old Tombstalker.

Also, I guess it's just me, but I'd take Stifle over Counterspell in that slot. Spell Snare is getting some heavy publicity, and the consensus is it's good, so that probably deserves a test.
Duress can be pretty sucky some times, but seeing as how we are turning into a meta of mostly aggro-control, combo, and control, it serves is purpose more often than not.
I've been thinking about Chill, and I can't decide whether it deserves a slot over Plague. Against Goblins it comes down faster (which is very good, especially because some times I don't even hit 3 mana against them), and you only need one. The only problem is that it doesn't actually kill them, so they can slowly fight through it. On the other hand, you need to Plagues or they can slowly fight through that...sometimes not even that slowly. Vial is what ruins Chill in that matchup. Chill is also good against random red, though I don't know how much that matters, but Plague is really only good against Goblins (it's arguably too slow for EtW, and Slivers is barely seen). On that note, Chill can win the game against ritual combo if you can actually get it down. Seems like Chill has the edge, but I can't say from a testing standpoint.

Thoughts?

Solpugid

06-26-2007, 10:17 PM

Yeah, the issue with vial is a rather substantial blow against chill, but if you can counter it I believe chill is superior. Lackey isn't really a problem, as you have at least 12 answers to it on the draw, and many more on the play.

@Brushwagg

No no, I never wanted to drop confidants from the list. I simply meant that there were games where he literally just killed me, and that is without tombstalker.

My EE dilema came when I was playing against angel stompy (and it occured multiple times). Soltari priest with jitte AND mother of runes on the opposing side made my board of goyf and mongoose seem...pathetic. I had a similar problem against sligh (well, similar in permanents' mana costs).

@Berzerked

Those two extra slots really could be something better. Finkel is ok, but rather slow for what he does. Psychatog, unfortunately, doesn't fit too well. I've tried it, but was not impressed. I suppose trygon predator should be tested.

I thought of making the duress into darkblast as well. One darkblast was acting as a proxy when I was testing (as I only have 3 ghastly demise) and I found myself wanting it to be darkbast on many occasions. I might also try lose hope, which would add scry for Bob and still allow 1 cc removal. It seems a bit narrow, but it's really never dead (unlike the other black removal).

Spell snare: not a fan. It's just too narrow for my liking, though in some metas it may be justified. Stifle, though, I could see. I ran it in Ugw for a while as it usually had a use. Still, additonal hard counters are pure gold at times.

Berzerked

06-26-2007, 10:45 PM

These two decks look very interesting. Neither is really Threshold, but they are similar, and some of the card choices can be examined:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=9381
http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=9349

Particularly notable is that both use Counterbalance/Top, and the Tog deck chose Piracy Charm as a tech slot.

Nihil Credo

06-27-2007, 01:20 AM

My opinions on some of the ideas that were thrown about:

- I wouldn't ever run Shadowmage Infiltrator without maindeck Equipment.
- Trygon Predator, as Berzerked noted, is unnecessary with maindecked EE (although I must note that it's a pet card of mine in two-colour Threshold)
- I'm pessimist on Psychatog. Tombstalker's greatest strength, like Mystic Enforcer's, is its evasion, which lets it fly over a board of Goblins or Mothers of Runes while your Tarmogoyfs sit back in defence. If it were a non-flying 8/8, I would have already dropped it in a heartbeat.
- Spell Snare replaced Counterspell in Bardo's list only because of Meddling Mage. Without Pikula to chant off worrisome stuff like Humility (or without Aggro UGR's fast clock), I wouldn't want to be relying just on FoW in such a random metagame as Legacy. The same applies to Stifle.
- There are very good reasons why Chill is better than E-Plague. My main problem with Chill, though, is how much more often it dies from EE or Deed (I bring in Deeds against Goblins).

Citrus-God

06-27-2007, 01:51 AM

I've been palying a fairly aggressive build lately, sporting Jittes, and tons of efficient threats as well as a full set of Daze, since playing a deck so aggressively can make Daze a easy, yet rewarding play.

// Hussle Rose
// Lands 17
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island

// Creatures 10
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Tombstalker

// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Serum Visions
4 Night's Whisper
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard 15
4 Engineered Plague
2 Hydroblast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Control Magic

Brushwagg

06-27-2007, 07:28 PM

I can save you the trouble on testing Tog. It sucks with the Gro engine. I tested it out for a while and found it's not worth it. Tog is a better fit in a Dredge build, or a traditional Tog build. It needs evasion of some sort or it will be blocked every time. Also at times I had a really hard time getting it leathal. In order to fit Tog in then it will take a redo on the engine, and some card choices.

@Anti:Interesting build there. NQNQNQG(some one already has the NQNQG list). Have you done any testing with it? If so can you post some results? I'm interested in your game 1 aganist Goblins too. It seems that it can be rough. Also do you miss Goose at all?

Citrus-God

06-28-2007, 01:53 AM

@Anti:Interesting build there. NQNQNQG(some one already has the NQNQG list). Have you done any testing with it? If so can you post some results? I'm interested in your game 1 aganist Goblins too. It seems that it can be rough. Also do you miss Goose at all?

This deck does better against Goblins than most Gro lists. I took Geese out because you have Goyf already. What I am trying to say is that, no matter what, you're going to most likely lose to Goblins on the Draw anyways. All you could usually hope for is hope you're on the play, where Goyf is good. As for the loss of Geese, I do miss it, but then again, it's not good if you're being aggressive, whereas Dryad is a major bomb when it's protected early game. In the Gro mirror, I also dont care about Geese or Swords, because when you ahve the biggest guy down, only thing that can remove is Swords. If you have Geese down, the best creature dominates it. I think I'd rather have Dryad, since it dominates the board. In short, I'd rather win than have a wall of Geese.

bigbear102

06-28-2007, 04:41 PM

I don't really understand why Dryad is being played so much again, he is still a horrible draw late game and does nothing but get big, goyf already gets big, and is already big in the late game. I would definitely play goose over dryad, as it does block lackey so you don't lose on the draw, and it goes the distance against control.

Brushwagg

06-28-2007, 10:21 PM

Shriekmaw

06-28-2007, 10:53 PM

I think even in black threshold that you have to play both Goose and of course Tarmogoyf. I'm not a big fan of Dryad in the black version of threshold b/c you want slots in order to run dark confidant and overloading the deck with creatures isn't a very effective strategy.

The creature base that always seems to work well is somewhere between 10-12. One of the benefits of the black version of Gro, I would think would be the ability to play dark confidant main deck and the access to engineered plague in the board.

I believe UG/b is the least talked about version of Gro, but definitely very powerful and consistent in the current legacy metagame.

Citrus-God

06-28-2007, 11:03 PM

Well I do Anti's logic of Dryad getting big quick, becuase she does. But as Bigbear pointed out it does suck in the late game, so IDK.

But I'm not sure about the logic behind not playing Goose. It's probably one of the better all around creatures Gro has.

@Anti:I'm not sure I'd go for the drastic changes you did. But I have had alot of games where Goose just swings things in the favor of you dropped it. It's almost impossible to kill.

It's really not hard getting Dryad pumped quickly, but of course, it takes one turn worth of investment to be good.

Although I admit, Goose can be the right call. I am testing the deck right now after all, and so far, it's been alright.

Brushwagg

07-01-2007, 11:35 AM

Well after doing some testing I've come to some conclusions.

1. Duress: I'm not being impressed with it in the MD. In certain matches it is really good and in other matches it just turns out be really bad (aggro). I still want to do some more testing, but this might find it's way to the board.

2. Extirpate: Just not that good as a 1 of. Myabe if I were add 2 more then it would be worth the while. I might try adding 2 more to see how it goes.

3. Extra Draws: The biggest thing I see my version is in need of is, something to go along with Bob. However I'm unsure of what that will be. If anyone can suggest something I'm open to ideas.

4. I'm considering giving Counterbalance and Top a try. If I do go with Counter Top then I see no reason not to run Predict. However I still don't like Predict.

So I think the deck is close, just need some tweaking.

Happy Gilmore

07-01-2007, 12:06 PM

I did a ten game set against UGB last night with UGR and it was a complete nightmare game 1. Ghastly Demise + Tarmogoyf + Dark Confidant + SDT is such a strong package. I am extremely temlpted to look into UGB in the future. My only qualm is that UGB only has Krosan Grip and Naturalize for artifact destruction. Ancient Grudge is possibly the best reason to run red. The question I want to ask is this....which one would I take to a major tournament.

for reference, the list (AnwarA101)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant

2 SDT
2 Serum Visions
3 Predict
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm

4 Ghastly Demise
3 Pithing Needle

4 FoW
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Island

I also want to try out this very different version of UGB:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tombstalker

3 SDT
1 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm

4 Darkblast
3 Pithing Needle

4 FoW
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB:
1 Tombstalker
3 Counterbalance
4 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives

Goaswerfraiejen

07-01-2007, 01:23 PM

My only qualm is that UGB only has Krosan Grip and Naturalize for artifact destruction. Ancient Grudge is possibly the best reason to run red.

Seal of Primordium works better with Tarmogoyf. Since you're maindecking Pithing Needles as well, I'd be less worried about artifact destruction than enchantment hate (like Leyline of the Void, which is thankfully no longer quite so popular). If what you really, truly want is artifact hate, there's also Elvish Scrapper that's available to green--but, like I said, with MD Needles, Seal of Primordium should be more than enough, no?

Nihil Credo

07-01-2007, 01:35 PM

Why have people seemingly stopped running Deed in the sideboard? It's never disappointed me so far.

Maybe you dislike how it blows up your own creatures (other than 'Stalker)... but IMHO, the key is remembering that postboard you need to play much more controllish... you do run 10-12 removal pieces and 7-10 counterspells, after all.

Happy Gilmore

07-01-2007, 03:34 PM

Citrus-God

07-01-2007, 04:13 PM

I've never heard of Deed in the board of UGB. What do you bring it in against? I think targeted removal would make alot more sense.

Other midgame creature decks. Although a slot involving better creatures is better than targeted removal. I'm thinking Plague Sliver for that slot, Tombstalkers, and all that good stuff.

Deed certainly is good though, against Angel Stompy, RGSA, mirror, Fish, and every slow creature deck.

Nihil Credo

07-01-2007, 04:43 PM

I've never heard of Deed in the board of UGB. What do you bring it in against? I think targeted removal would make alot more sense.

- All midrange aggro decks: Mother of Runes, Equipment, fatties, Chalice of the fucking Void.
- The vast majority of board control decks. Crucible of Worlds, Humility, Lightning Rift, DoJ tokens...
- All Survival variants (in addition to Needle, which they plan to blow up anyway)
- Fish (wrecking ball against them, since unlike you they can't play one threat at a time. Also see Equipment)
- CounterSliver (loosely comparable to taking their deck and wiping your rabid dog's ass with it)
- Sui Black and Red Death (3 Edicts aren't enough when you can't play Ghastly Demise. Also see Dystopia)
- Stax (turns the game from auto-loss to winnable)
- Empty the Warrens combo if I'm on the play (additional insurance, more versatile than Plague here)
- Green Goblins (can't rely on Plague alone thanks to Krosan Grip)

Pernicious Deed is the Mana Leak of UGB Threshold: you cut your bad maindeck cards and, unless you have hate to bring in, chances are Pernicious Deed is better than whatever you took out in the first place.

Goaswerfraiejen

07-01-2007, 06:21 PM

I've never heard of Deed in the board of UGB. What do you bring it in against? I think targeted removal would make alot more sense.

I included it early in the thread before I split "my deck" from what people wanted to be more Thresh-y. Deed is amazing in its versatility, and it crushes so much on its own that it's usually worth running. It does, however, lack synergy with much of a typical BUG Thresh list, and so necessitates some extra oomph, like Tombstalker or--dare I say it--Genesis.

Happy Gilmore

07-01-2007, 07:59 PM

- All midrange aggro decks: Mother of Runes, Equipment, fatties, Chalice of the fucking Void.
- The vast majority of board control decks. Crucible of Worlds, Humility, Lightning Rift, DoJ tokens...
- All Survival variants (in addition to Needle, which they plan to blow up anyway)
- Fish (wrecking ball against them, since unlike you they can't play one threat at a time. Also see Equipment)
- CounterSliver (loosely comparable to taking their deck and wiping your rabid dog's ass with it)
- Sui Black and Red Death (3 Edicts aren't enough when you can't play Ghastly Demise. Also see Dystopia)
- Stax (turns the game from auto-loss to winnable)
- Empty the Warrens decks if I'm on the play, as an extra insurance in addition to my Explosives.
- Green Goblins (can't rely on Plague alone thanks to Krosan Grip)

Pernicious Deed is the Mana Leak of UGB Threshold: you cut your bad maindeck cards and, unless you have hate to bring in, chances are Pernicious Deed is better than whatever you took out in the first place.

EE can do most of that and still save some of your beaters if you manage the cc's. Sui and Red Death Bring in Dystopia, I don't think your going to get to 6 mana to blow up a Negator or Specter in one turn. With the exception of Moat and Humility you can generally kill the other problem cards. And at the same time not kill either your goyfs or geese. EE kills tokens 1 turn faster than deeds, and that matters. I'm not convinced that Deed would be brought in over EE/Diabolic Edict/Counterbalance in those matches.

Diabolic Edict is better against midrange agro such as the mirror, so is EE and Counterbalance.

Sui/Red Death/Fish/Countersliver Gets hardcore hosed by Counterbalance and EE. EE destroys practically everything Countersliver plays for 1 less mana and saves that Nimble Mongoose in play.

Brushwagg

07-01-2007, 08:16 PM

Well it's nice to see some new interest in the deck.

@Happy Gilmore:May I ask why your not running Dark Confidant in either of your lists? I feel it's really the reason to play Black Gro. The extra draws are well worth life loss.

As far as Deed goes, I've used before, but I'm not sure if it's needed since EE has been printed. But it certainly can be used to great effect.

Also I do see Red Death and Sui Black as being a problem. Demise is right out and I'm not sure of a plan here. It might have to be just go more aggro then them?? Seems pretty bad but it might have to how it is.

Nihil Credo

07-01-2007, 08:42 PM

@Brushwagg: My plan is simply to deal with 3 dead cards maindeck (MD 3 Demise/1 Edict/2 EE), and overload on removal postboard (up to 3 Edict/3 Deed/3 EE if they run enough creatures).

Edit: Came up while brainstorming for ideas: has anyone tried out Feast of Flesh (especially in a Mental Note version)? It's likely too unreliable, but Darkblast is playable in the format...

@Happy Gilmore: Ok, you brought up a lot of points here...

EE can do most of that and still save some of your beaters if you manage the cc's.

With the exception of Moat and Humility you can generally kill the other problem cards. And at the same time not kill either your goyfs or geese.I run 2 EE MD and 1 SB. I love that card. But in most midrange matchups it's a 4-5 mana Vindicate, where Deed would have been an Akroma's Vengeance for the same price.

My claim is that Thresh sometimes needs a Vengeance more than a Vindicate. Of course, it is key to that you do not play Turn 1 Geese, Turn 2 Goyf. As long as your opponent has something in hand or on board, play removal before creatures.

Sui and Red Death Bring in Dystopia, I don't think your going to get to 6 mana to blow up a Negator or Specter in one turn.You don't need to. Play Deed, untap, put Dystopia on the stack, blow up everything including that pesky Negator.

EE kills tokens 1 turn faster than deeds, and that matters. I'm not convinced that Deed would be brought in over EE/Diabolic Edict/Counterbalance in those matches.I run 3 EE between main and side (no Counterbalance - I don't trust in it with Thresh's mana curve). In the combo matchup, as I said, Deed comes in only on the play and only after EE, to replace crap like Tombstalker (and Edict - I assume it was a mistake when you mentioned it coming in against combo).

Diabolic Edict is better against midrange agro such as the mirror, so is EE and Counterbalance.

By "midrange aggro" I mean Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, Survival and the like, and against those Deed is by far the best card.
I don't bring in Deed against Threshold.

Sui/Red Death/Fish/Countersliver Gets hardcore hosed by Counterbalance and EE. EE destroys practically everything Countersliver plays for 1 less mana and saves that Nimble Mongoose in play. Sui, Red Death and Fish do not have as flattened a curve as Countersliver, so Deed works better here (if you don't run Counterbalance).
Against Countersliver I agree that EE is overall better. Again, though, there are enough crappy things to take out (Demise, Edict) that I have room for both.

Brushwagg

07-02-2007, 10:46 PM

Well I've also been testing this out also.

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Forest (4)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [RAV] Island (1)
1 [RAV] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [OD] Ghastly Demise
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Predict
2 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

Basically I cut the Duress, Extirpate, and Mental Note and replaced with Counterbalance, Top, and Predict.

I've had mixed results. I tested this version out aganist TES last night, all games where pre-board, and went 5-5. COunterbalance was pretty good some games, but I think I would have like Duress also. So IDK. But I do know Stifle would have changed the outcome of at least 3 of my losses, since I did get stuck with Demise in hand (which would have been sided out.)

@EE vs. Deed:I think you could either way. But as for my meta I see more Warrens and stuff where EE is just plain better. But if your meta is filled more with Stax, Red Death and Survival etc... then I would go with Deed. As far as Angel Stompy both are good. So I really think this is a meta call but both should be considered.

Citrus-God

07-03-2007, 06:31 AM

I cant trust Counterbalance Maindecked against Vial Goblins.

Also, the Deed/EE slots should definitely be threats, not removal. Threats at least win you the game, and in the slow creature mirror, Threats can at least outclass them.

So I vote for something stupid, like Moroii, Benthic Djinn, Plague Sliver, extra Tombstalkers, Efreets, and/or Sea Drakes.

Citrus-God

07-06-2007, 03:15 AM

I tested Anwar's list last night. Fucking amazing. I under estimated the power of Confidant, but I was still saddened by the fact it's not was powerful as a big flier. Tombstalker is awesome, but I think Confidant is better. Confidant is something that needs to be played early, or else you wont win. Luckily, you usually win when he's around and protected. Sadly, he sucks against Vial Goblins. Confidants are still strong against a lot of other decks.

Here's my Sideboard

3 Pernicious Deed/Control Magic (Control Magic is infinitely better)
2 Tombstalker
3 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Hydroblast
4 Engineered Plague

I might cut 2 Tombstalkers for 2 Null Rods, which hit LED, Lotus Petals, and Mox against Combo, and Crypts and Vials against Vial Goblins.

Pernicious Deed is still experimental. So far, I'm leaning towards Control Magic, but a mix of both is better, IMO. Pernicious Deed is at least decent against Angel Stompy, whereas, Control Magic just steals crap until an Angel hits play. Deeds have been promising so far, but then again, Control Magic can be just as great. I think a 2/1 split is the way to go with 2 Control Magic and 1 Deed.

Brushwagg

07-07-2007, 12:51 PM

thefreakaccident

07-17-2007, 01:06 AM

so, I've been testing this version again... I have a rough list and was wondering if you guys could help critique on it.

lands//17
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 polluted delta
1 island
1 swamp
3 flooded strand

creatures// 13
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
1 anavolver (prolly the most disputued slot so far, flips for 4; but is a 5/5 flier)

spells//30
4 brainstorm
4 portent
4 serum visions
4 force of will
3 daze
2 counterspell
3 stifle
4 ghastly demise
2 diabolic edict/night's whisper

sideboard//
4 engineered plague
3 duress
4 pernicious deed
3 krosan grip
1 diabolic edict

Brushwagg

07-17-2007, 10:42 PM

@thefreakaccident: Ok. Let's start with the mana base.

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

You need a good mix of Duals, Fetches (6 is plenty) and Basics. I know the forest seems bad because you can't fetch for it, but trust me I've used it plenty. I have gone with 4x Underground as of late, but then again I'm running Tombstalker and I need less Green mana.

Anavolver?? It needs to go. I know it can become a 5/5 flyer, but it's a really high mana cost. Not something you want in Gro. I would suggest Tombstalker here because he is basically a 5/5 flyer foir BB. The key is to have no fear when flipping with Bob. I've been using 2 and been having good results in testing. Other then that I really haven't found another good flyer or beater for the slot. Maybe cut a Bob, but I'm not opening that debate again. Some use 4 some use 3.

As far as everything else goes seems alright. I might move Stifle to the board and bring Duress in the main. But then again if your meta is more Joblins then Combo or Control then Stifle is fine where it is.

Aggro_zombies

09-17-2007, 08:39 PM

I'm going to necro this thread with some Lorwyn cards in mind, specifically Shriekmaw.

Has anyone been developing this deck lately? When Lorwyn comes out, this is the version I want to begin testing on MWS:
// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Island (4)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [OD] Swamp (1)
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LOR] Shriekmaw
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [LOR] Ponder/Think/Whatever it is
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Predict
3 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [OD] Ghastly Demise

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 4 [US] Duress

The 'maw seems like it could be a really strong card here, either as an evasive beater with removal, or as an early-game anti-Goyf Terror. I think that the main way this deck can differentiate itself from other Thresh versions is by focusing on board control to give it an edge in the mirror. After all, you're in the color of Deed...and Thresh doesn't typically like board control. Thresh and board control seems like it could be really good.

Some other things to consider:
1) Life from the Loam? You could recur Wastelands and lands that get nuked.
2) Volrath's Stronghold? Lol, I get my Goyfs back post-Deed and you don't.
3) Some better finisher than the demon?

EDIT: I may drop the Tombstalkers for either 2 Serum Visions or 2 Diabolic Edict, though the latter seems better against other Thresh decks.

cianty

09-18-2007, 04:10 AM

This is what I am currently playing (adding 4 Ponder to the mix):

-----------------------
Ubg THRESHOLD/GROW
-----------------------

// Draw Engine (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Disruption (11)
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance /Counterspell/Spell Snare/Stifle
4 Force of Will

// Removal (6)
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

// Creatures (12)
4 Quirion Dryad/Werebear/Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Tombstalker

// Lands (17)
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

// SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Spell Snare
2 Misdirection
2 Infest

I am always unsure about Predict. I usually compare it with Confidant and choose to run him instead. He's another creature screaming StP me so that the Tarmogoys last a little longer.
With the new drawing power of Ponder I will test Spell Snare and Stifle main.
The Infests used to be Massacres (for Meddling Mage) and are the slot I am constantly changing. I tried Deed but it's killing my own creatures all the time and I'm not running that many. If there were more combo decks in my meta I'd add 2 EEs to the sideboard. I tried Darkblast before Ghastly Demise and took it out (Demise is black's StP!!). Nowadays with Tarmogoyfs all over the place a Darkblast can be very good again as it can win you a 'goyf vs 'goyf battle... And, for the record, I did win a game where I used the dredging of a darkblast to put a counterbalance in the graveyard and have my Tarmogoy swing for lethal just in time, that was a pretty cool move.

EDIT:
Replying to previous post:
I don't know if I really like Shriekmaw so much. A Sorcery-speed Terror or an unblockable 3/2 for 4B.. meh. If you run him for a while let us know if he is any good. At least he kills Tarmogoys while being mostly unaffected by counterbalance (except for FoW on top).
About the Tombstalker: I've always run one copy and he's been amazingly good. He has the tendecy to show up when I need him (late game) and staying away when I don't (Confidant, Counterbalance). He has been the winning factor a couple of times by flying above the Tarmogoyf stall game and swinging for the win. His 5/5 body is able to race a Tarmogoys which is pretty rare these days.

Aggro_zombies

09-25-2007, 02:58 AM

So, now that "Neo-Duress" aka Thoughtseize has officially been confirmed for the set, I think we have at least one good reason to play black (the second being Deed in the mirror, plus Duress). Furthermore, the following card caught my eye:

Wydwen, the Biting Gale
:2::u::b:
Legendary Creature - Faerie Wizard
Flash, Flying
:u::b:, pay 1 life: Return Wydwen to its owner's hand.
3/3

So, it's an evasive beater that is godawful hard to kill and can always come back to pitch to Force in an emergency situation.

My build would look something like this now:

4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
2 Wydwen

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 [Sekrit Tek]
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Terror
2 Deed/Putrefy
4 Thoughtseize

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta

Only four fetches? Well, with Stifle starting to run rampant and the life loss from Thoughtseize, Force, and Wydwen to consider, I figured cutting down on the fetches might be worth it (and Deltas can fetch every land in my deck). I'll reveal the Sekrit Tek cards for sure once I've tested them enough...don't want to get flamed into oblivion for something I can't defend with results.

Nihil Credo

09-25-2007, 08:32 AM

Dark Confidant is much more of a reason to play the Black splash than Thoughtseize (not that TS isn't insane).

Aggro_zombies

09-25-2007, 02:21 PM

Dark Confidant is much more of a reason to play the Black splash than Thoughtseize (not that TS isn't insane).
True, but I don't like the two of them together without Jitte to recover from all of the life loss.

Citrus-God

10-22-2007, 03:01 AM

Hey, I tried Wastelands in UGb, and simply put, with Lorwyn, I think this is by far one of the most amazing decks I have ever seen so far.

Thoughtseize is amazing, Ghastly Demise is amazing, and Dreadnaught is amazing.

In this build, you're the Aggressor. You want to disrupt and win. Here is my list...

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [RAV] Watery Grave
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [OD] Ghastly Demise

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague

Games 2, when you board in Counterbalance, you transform into a totally different deck.

-4 Ghastly Demise
-3 Trickbind
-3 Dreadnaught
-1 Stifle

+3 SDT
+4 Counterbalance
+4 Duress

Thus, you assemble Counterbalance quickly and lock the game up.

Very strong deck so far. Design was simple, and again, I want to say it is amazing. I'm not so sure about Counterbalances and SDT in the Sideboard, but I believe that the maindeck should stay the same for awhile. I might consider Dark Confidants in the board, probably.

Rood

10-22-2007, 06:07 AM

Sigar

10-22-2007, 07:06 AM

So what is the gameplan vs Ichorid and Breakfast?

Anarky87

10-22-2007, 11:34 AM

I made first this past weekend at a small tournament with this build:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Mental Note
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother

3 Engineered Plague
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Krosan Grip
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Pithing Needle

I really enjoyed this build a lot and I don't believe there was one thing I didn't like about it. I'm not really sure yet if I'm going to incorporate Thoughtseize in anywhere. I just don't really think I need it right now. Some conclusions I drew during the tournament:

* Ponder is totally amazing. Some games I'd just go nuts with them and have tons of advantage by turn 2 and 3.

* Shackles is a tremendous beating against Goblins and Fish.

* A resolved Confidant in the mirror and in most games = GG. The card advantage from him in this deck is just outstanding.

* Smother is the nutz in the mirror, as is Demise.

zulander

10-22-2007, 11:59 AM

Here is the build I would test.

Mana: 17
4 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Underground Sea
8 Blue fetches

Creatures: 10
4 Goyf
3 Terravore
3 Dark Confidant

Draw: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
3 Top

Disruption: 19
4 Thoughtseize
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Ghastly Demise

Sideboard: 15
4 Krosan Grip
11 other random stuff like stifle/counterspell/gy hate.

Happy Gilmore

10-22-2007, 12:37 PM

So what is the gameplan vs Ichorid and Breakfast?

Counter all their Cabal Therapies when Cephalid breakfast goes off (with Counterbalance) and then counter Dread Return. Against Ichorid you play dreadnaught to remove all their bridges, then you play another one and stifle the trigger.

nitewolf9

10-22-2007, 03:23 PM

zulander

10-22-2007, 04:00 PM

What do you guys think of Spiritmonger in the board as a 2 of for the mirror? He punches through tarmogoyfs and trumps all other finishers, as well as getting around counterbalance pretty effectively. Plus he pretty much wins the game on the spot when you play him.

I think that keeping mana open to regenerate spiritmongers can be a problem because more often than not goyfs are going to be 6/7's compared to your 6/6.

nitewolf9

10-22-2007, 04:29 PM

If you played him the previous turn then you attack, you will probably have the :b: open to regenerate him. And he grows everytime he deals damage, so he will be able to pound through on the ground.

zulander

10-22-2007, 06:02 PM

If you played him the previous turn then you attack, you will probably have the :b: open to regenerate him. And he grows everytime he deals damage, so he will be able to pound through on the ground.

Really I can't argue with your point, but with only 17 lands are you consistently able to keep mana open to regen and change colors?

Happy Gilmore

10-22-2007, 06:12 PM

Casting him is possible but I dont know, 5 mana is kind of high, wouldn't Tombstalker be a better SB card?

Aggro_zombies

10-22-2007, 08:07 PM

Really I can't argue with your point, but with only 17 lands are you consistently able to keep mana open to regen and change colors?
When is the color-changing ability relevant?

Personally, if I had to choose a five mana critter to use, I'd use Shriekmaw because it has the most utility (it can act as a Terror in emergency situations) and it has evasion. Though I don't run anything* above four mana in my build of black Thresh (which has done quite well in testing, btw, with the exception of a few unlucky spats).

EDIT: Tombstalker is so bad it hurts. Trying to get to double mana of any color other than blue is tough, and if you remove a lot of stuff in your yard to play him quickly he'll usually draw all sorts of removal. I would never cast him unless I could do so without losing Threshold (or if I don't have Geese in play).

*Force of Will doesn't count.

Nihil Credo

10-23-2007, 08:05 AM

EDIT: Tombstalker is so bad it hurts. Trying to get to double mana of any color other than blue is tough, and if you remove a lot of stuff in your yard to play him quickly he'll usually draw all sorts of removal. I would never cast him unless I could do so without losing Threshold (or if I don't have Geese in play).

Have you actually tested it? I've been running 1 maindeck + 1 SB for quite some time, and it never was a problem for me - it's a late-game card, so when I cast it I usually have two black lands. It has never shrunk Tarmogoyf at all and only shrinks Mongoose once in a while - and I don't even run Mental Note! (BTW: I cast it for three mana more often than for two).

It's an evasive threat, best used against (non-Goblins) aggro when you're at a low life total and your Goyfs/Geese need to hold the ground. Doesn't hurt to have some Deed- and EE-proof threats against control, either.

zulander

10-23-2007, 06:40 PM

It's easier to get BG then to get BB. And who cares if you have a 5/5 when they pay 1G for a 6/7. At least Spiritmonger regens. And trust me, the color switching ability comes into play a lot, especially in the mirror matches where people can't get rid of him with ghastly demise.

Illissius

10-23-2007, 06:48 PM

And trust me, the color switching ability comes into play a lot, especially in the mirror matches where people can't get rid of him with ghastly demise.

Dude is black already. Suppose it helps against Perish, Dystopia, Deathmark, Pro: Black dudes (and Lynx), or whatever.

Solpugid

10-23-2007, 08:52 PM

It's easier to get BG then to get BB. And who cares if you have a 5/5 when they pay 1G for a 6/7.

Since when is goyf an automatic 6/7? More often than not he's a 4/5 until late game when a counterbalance or something bites it. But honestly, you're giving goyf too much credit. Seems everyone is these days.

Spiritmonger is better than tombstalker at handling goyf, but that's not really the point of tombstalker. When the ground gets clogged by goyfs and mongooses you need something that can fly over top, not punch through over many turns. Besides that, costing five mana is bad news because it makes daze good later in the game.

Aggro_zombies

10-26-2007, 03:25 PM

Have you actually tested it? I've been running 1 maindeck + 1 SB for quite some time, and it never was a problem for me - it's a late-game card, so when I cast it I usually have two black lands. It has never shrunk Tarmogoyf at all and only shrinks Mongoose once in a while - and I don't even run Mental Note! (BTW: I cast it for three mana more often than for two).

It's an evasive threat, best used against (non-Goblins) aggro when you're at a low life total and your Goyfs/Geese need to hold the ground. Doesn't hurt to have some Deed- and EE-proof threats against control, either.
Yes, I have tested it. In fact, I tested it from the time it was spoiled until shortly before Lorwyn came out. It's good, yes, but the deck I was using it in (which utilized Goose, Werebear, and Ghastly Demise) couldn't handle it, and I disliked having to pull :b::b: before playing it, as it required me to run a higher number of basic Swamps than I wanted (facing down Wasteland out of a lot of decks hurts your ability to reliably hit :b::b:). I'm testing something else currently that I've been happy with.

Anarky87

10-26-2007, 05:26 PM

As of yet, I've never felt that I wanted Tombstalker. Goose and Goyf have worked just fine.

Citrus-God

10-27-2007, 04:05 AM

Goaswerfraiejen

10-27-2007, 11:32 AM

Personally, after months of just brainstorming and some on-and-off testing, it's kinda obvious that Posessed Aven is probably the best flier you can get. It kills Enforcer. That's all I need to say, just to make it sound uneven.

How does it kill Enforcer? It trades with it if neither one of you has Threshold, but once you get Threshold, it becomes black--and Enforcer has protection from black. It also taps to destroy blue creatures, and Enforcer isn't blue anyway.

The possessed creatures are awesome, but...

ReAnimated

10-27-2007, 11:47 AM

I think he means "kill" as in it's better than enforcer not saying that it can litteraly kill an enforcer :tongue:

from Cairo

10-27-2007, 01:48 PM

I think he means "kill" as in it's better than enforcer not saying that it can litteraly kill an enforcer :tongue:

Even in that context it seems a bit questionable a 4/4 for 4 that can kill blue guys or a 6/6 for 4 that has pro-black and thus keeps the air route locked up the UGB vs UGW mirror. Possessed Aven doesn't really seem to have anything on Enforcer (other than in their respective decks- maybe UU being easier to get than GW, but not to the point that it's a huge deal).

Aggro_zombies

10-27-2007, 11:58 PM

Perhaps he meant Possessed Centaur? It still can't kill Enforcer, but it can take out opposing Goyfs and tramples over Mongeese.

Citrus-God

10-28-2007, 02:35 PM

Perhaps he meant Possessed Centaur? It still can't kill Enforcer, but it can take out opposing Goyfs and tramples over Mongeese.

I literally forgot that the Aven turns black. I guess the best thing is probably just somthing janky and cool, like MD Shackles.

Happy Gilmore

10-28-2007, 03:15 PM

Citrus-God

10-28-2007, 03:35 PM

Aggro_zombies

10-29-2007, 03:25 AM

I've been tempted to test either Jace or Garruk as the last finisher slots because they are so good against Control and cannot be killed by Pernicious Deeds. Plust they break the mirror match wide open.
Uh...how? They both die in one swing of a Goyf and are only good in a deck designed to make it to the late game to begin with. Jace is basically a crappier version of Concentrate, which costs :1: less to play but spreads the cards out over three turns. Garruk is okay, but Call of the Herd isn't really stellar in this deck. Why not just run Deed? Deed crushes the mirror match and isn't totally shitty in other matchups.

Also, how is Possessed Aven any good at all? It kills blue creatures, the most irrelevant color for a creature in the format!

EDIT: I'll go ahead and throw my list up here, just for shits and giggles. I haven't settled on a definitive sideboard yet, but it's coming.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [PT] Island (2)
1 [OD] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [LRW] Wydwen, the Biting Gale

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [FD] Serum Visions
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Predict
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
3 [NE] Daze
4 [ON] Smother
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 7 [???] Undecided

At the last tournament I attended, the undecided slots were Engineered Plagues and Extirpates. The major loss of Goblins in my meta probably means I'll be switching those around for cards better in the control matchup (versus Landstill).

Maveric78f

10-29-2007, 04:40 AM

I really don't get this thread.

1/ It should never be a UGb threshold but a UBg. Green is good only for Goyf, and eventually another card although black offers dark confidant, creature removals and another finisher.
2/ Garruk would be fine but as I told in 1/, the double green removes it from the list.
3/ Omg, Wydwen ? Are you serious ?
4/ Plus you play 15 library manipulation. wouldn't you prefer to draw instead ?
5/ The best card that offers black is not even in your builds : unearth. It cycles in early game and becomes confidant 5-8 or tarmogoyf 5-8.
6/ The most difficult choice in UBg is the choice of the creature removals (vendetta, ghastly demise, smother, edict, jitte, ...) and the choice of the alternative kills (dryad, jitte, stalker, psychatog). I would personnally go for vendetta and smother and dryad*2 or jitte*2, but I'm not decided yet.
7/ The cantrips should not be that many as in other threshold decks because you have the best drawer for threshold : confidant. Although not to suicide you too much, you absolutely need 3 or 4*sensei. In my build, I just played 4*brainstorm and 4*sensei plus 4*confidant and 2*shadowmage infiltrator, which is a bit slow I admit.

Here is the list I use to play :
Creatures (14) :
4*Confidant
4*Tarmogoyf
3*Shadowmage
3*Trygon Predator

Blue stuff (13) :
4*Brainstorm
4*FoW
2*Counterbalance
3*Stifle

Additionnal stuff (14) :
4*Sensei's Divining Top
2*Umezawa's Jitte
3*Unearth
3*Vendetta
2*Smother

Lands (19) :
1*Volrath's Stronghold
4*Flooded
4*Polluted
1*Swamp
2*Tropical
1*Breeding pool
3*Underground sea
3*Island

TeKo

10-29-2007, 08:32 AM

Hmm... why Vendetta > Smother > G. Demise?
You play 4 Confidants = -Life, Vendetta on Goyf ~ -5 Life.
I think Snuff Out is better but its still to much.
And no Daze???

But Unearth is really cool, good against removal except StP.

I would play sth like this:

3 Flooded
3 Polluted
3 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf / W. Bear
3 Confidant
1 Tombstalker

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei
3 Ghastly
3 Smother
3 Spell Snare / Stifle

SB:
3 Stifle / Spell Snare
3 EE
3 Duress
3 Threads o. D. or Meta Stuff maybe Unearth
3 Meta (Needle or sth)

Maveric78f

10-29-2007, 09:10 AM

In this deck dark confidant does not hurt much and the purpose of vendetta is to have a first turn answer to lackey. Ghastly demise does not reliably enables it. The other point is that I don't want to be too much relying on my grave. I don't want to reach the point where entering grave hate becomes relevant. That's also the reason why I do'nt want to play Tombstalker or threshold creatures. My dependency is only on tarmogoyf (which is very difficult to hate out, only a first turn planar void completely deals with him) and on reanimation spells (unearth that can be cycled and stronghold which is as a random guest and keeps providing mana).

The main reason to refuse Tombstalker though is the double black.

I run no daze because it's an overcosted card. In the first turns it's very painful to miss a land drop and in late game it's simply useless. Against aggro control, it's easy to wait in order to be daze proof. My opponent is not supposed to know that I don't play it anyway.

BtW, I usually don't need to get rid of tarmogoyf becasue I can fly over it or attack with shadowmage, plus I play jitte...

About your list, I definitely don't see how you can win gob. You don't even SB engineered plague. Unearth is clearly not a card to be put in SB. You will enter it and face all the grave hate of the world at the same time. I would rather play them MD and unside them systematically.

There are big differences between the versions of threshold :
- red is insane against Goblins but may be weaker in mirror
- white is surely the best in an opened meta
- black is very strong in mirror because of unearth and confidant but weak against gobs.

Splashing black for not playing DC*4 MD and unearth *2 or 3 and no grave hate or engineered plague is illogical for me. It's like playing red wothout fire/ice and bolt MD and no pyroclasm in SB.

Aggro_zombies

10-29-2007, 09:25 AM

3/ Omg, Wydwen ? Are you serious ?
4/ Plus you play 15 library manipulation. wouldn't you prefer to draw instead ?
5/ The best card that offers black is not even in your builds : unearth. It cycles in early game and becomes confidant 5-8 or tarmogoyf 5-8.
Heh. I anticipated #3.

Yes, Wydwen. Wydwen does a number of things for you:
1) She comes out of the middle of nowhere (extremely relevant!),
2) She flies,
3) She doesn't croak to Deed,
4) She has built-in protection from removal,
5) She pitches to Force in emergency situations.

I never liked Bob here without Jitte, and Jitte means Mongoose is bad since you can't equip it. Replace Mongoose and run more library manipulation to keep Confidant from killing you and you start to have a different deck entirely.

Also, how necessary is Unearth?

Maveric78f

10-29-2007, 09:42 AM

Necessary as tarmo 5-7 and confidant 5-7 and never dead as it can be cycled. With it you can play your tarmogoyfs without any backup. You simply know that you'll get another one if countered, discarded or destroyed. Against control, you'll want to have confidant or shadowmage in order to make some CA better than they can do.

TeKo

10-29-2007, 09:44 AM

Agree!
My List and SB are more for a Thresh/Combo Meta.
You say Vendetta against 1st Turn Lackey, then i say Daze/G. Demise (1st Turn Fetchland) against Lackey 1st Turn but you're right with the land so I can't drop CB 2nd Turn.
I'll still play it, because its very useful until turn ~5 and after t5 in some situations and u can pitch it for FoW.

Joon

11-03-2007, 06:13 AM

Hi folks,

this is my version of NQGb.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Underground Sea
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother
4 [LOR] Ponder
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

A bigger disruption base as usual as I use Seize in addition to Wasteland/Stifle. At the moment I try to find out which removal is better...Not any results yet. I'd like to see 1-2 Tombstalkers in there but I can't see anything cut - maybe 1 smother or so.

Nihil Credo

11-03-2007, 09:47 AM

Really nice tempo-build you have there ;) It's not my style, but I think it's very good.

For the manabase, I would run 4 Delta, 2 Strand, 1 Island, 3 Sea, 1 Swamp, 4 Tropical. A couple basics can let you steal games from difficult matchups, like Life from the Loam.

My removal suite is 3 Demise/2 Edict, with two more Edicts in the board, but that is personal taste.

Since you run Stifle+Wasteland, you might consider switching some of the Ponders to Portents (or finding room elsewhere for them): Time Walking your opponent can be very powerful indeed.

The one problem I see in your deck is the sideboard. I'm convinced it needs to be completely redone. Let's begin...

4 Counterbalance can stay. Three is the norm, but there is so much Thresh/Fish in Germany that you're right in running the full set.

The Duresses, however, should just go. You already run 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Counterbalance, plus the standard Threshold suite: this is just overkill. There are cards that supplement better your other SB options and also work in different matchups (see below).

Engineered Plague... eh. I used to like it, but I've come to consider it unnecessary. Really, it's only good against Goblins, since every other tribal deck runs 8 "lords" (+1/+1 to all creatures). I prefer to use Engineered Explosives to handle Empty the Warrens tokens, since it's faster and much more versatile. And I sideboard Diabolic Edicts, which help 1) to replace Demise against black decks; 2) to go up to ~7 removal spells against aggro. I've found that Goblins is not difficult when you have that much removal in addition to your creatures; if you don't see many Goblins in your metagame, cut the Plagues.

Pithing Needle can stay, too. Very very good against control and non-Threshold aggro-control. However, I don't think it's either as powerful or as necessary as other cards on this list. You may have to cut it to make room.

Now, I think there are two more things you absolutely need to have. The first is Extirpate. I can't stress enough how good that one is: it wrecks control and combo decks of every shape and colour. It's up there with Confidant as the best reason to play Black Thresh. Play three or four of these.
The second is some sort of artifact/enchantment removal. It's terrible to just lose the game to a resolved Counterbalance, Moat, Chalice of the Void, etc. Krosan Grip is the obvious choice here, but you can also consider something like Pernicious Deed, which is very good against decks who play many permanents like Stax or Faerie Stompy.

I also like to sideboard 1-2 Tombstalker. It's very good against aggro: you use Tarmogoyfs and Mongoose to block attackers, while you fly over and kill in four turns. And against control, it's another threat that can't be killed by Pernicious Deed or Smother.

Overall, I'd sideboard the following:

4 Counterbalance
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Explosives
1-2 Tombstalker
3 Krosan Grip/Pernicious Deed
1-2 Pithing Needle

Goaswerfraiejen

11-03-2007, 09:54 AM

If you're going to run both Demise and Smother, why not replace one (the two Ghastly Demises, in my opinion) with Shriekmaw? It will up your threat package for the mid-late game, and it can't kill most of your own creatures, which is a plus if the enemy board is empty. Shriekmaw essentially serves the same purpose as Demise: complementing Smother, killing what it can't. It also has the added advantage of not depending on your graveyard, which is certainly helpful.

Joon

11-03-2007, 10:00 AM

Thanks a lot, Nihil. The most-tested part of the deck is the Mainboard because people on MWS often disconnect after G1 :rolleyes:

With the Sideboard you're absolutely right, I'm going to test the following SB:

3 Counterbalance
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Tombstalker
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle

The old SB was just random as it was an relic of my very very old NQGb version a few months ago - but the new one seems tenthousand times better :smile:
I decided to run only 3 CB because our local meta hasn't that much *****, but often random-jank.decs that scoop to deed. Tombstalker in the side is a nice idea, I'm going to test this version out.
Thanks again...

Nihil Credo

11-03-2007, 10:08 AM

No prob, Joon ;) Let us know how it works for you. And watch out with the Deeds: they're difficult to play with... (you have to think several turns ahead whether to play creatures or not)

@Goas: Shriekmaw is a fucking sexy idea, especially with Top making Confidant less risky. But I wouldn't cut Demise for it: having 1-mana removal is absolutely critical in several matchups.

Aggro_zombies

11-03-2007, 09:12 PM

@Goas: Shriekmaw is a fucking sexy idea, especially with Top making Confidant less risky. But I wouldn't cut Demise for it: having 1-mana removal is absolutely critical in several matchups.
What matchups? Having Crypt rape your removal in the ass is kinda crappy...Vendetta? Besides, I'd rather think of Shriekmaw as a win condition that can be used as something else in emergency situations rather than a removal spell. If you're using it strictly as removal (in other words, evoking it more often than actually playing it), why aren't you using Terror, a card that is basically strictly better to its evoke ability? I'd mess with the creature base to fit it in, since it *does* have evasion, which is relevant in stalled ground wars.

EDIT: rephrased that to make myself clearer.

Happy Gilmore

11-03-2007, 10:53 PM

What matchups? Having Crypt rape your removal in the ass is kinda crappy...Vendetta? Besides, I'd rather think of Shriekmaw as a win condition that can be used as something else in emergency situations rather than a removal spell. If you're using it strictly as removal (in other words, evoking it more often than actually playing it), why aren't you using Terror, a card that is basically strictly better to its evoke ability? I'd mess with the creature base to fit it in, since it *does* have evasion, which is relevant in stalled ground wars.

EDIT: rephrased that to make myself clearer.

Terror can be countered by your opponents counterbalance. Shriekmaw, with few exceptions, is practically never counterable with CB. Not to mention that a 3/2 with fear that kills a tarmogoyf in the process is a nice finisher. Upping your threat count to 13-14 for free against control seems excellent also.

kabal

11-03-2007, 11:05 PM

Terror can be countered by your opponents counterbalance. Shriekmaw, with few exceptions, is practically never counterable with CB.

Except that Stifle is very popular right now. My guess is that there are going to be few times were you are actually going to hard cast Shriekmaw running 17 lands.

Aggro_zombies

11-03-2007, 11:26 PM

Except that Stifle is very popular right now. My guess is that there are going to be few times were you are actually going to hard cast Shriekmaw running 17 lands.
Depends on how unlucky you are.

Shriekmaw is only really good in a version of this deck going for a more control-style game plan. Then it's a good late-game threat that won't die to Deed and also unclogs the ground somewhat. Even if it doesn't do that, it's still a 3/2 evasive body that's almost impossible to block in the present format to a light representation in the black and colorless ends of the creature spectrum. As an aside, this is probably the only version of Thresh that can play as either aggro-aggro-control (more Goblins-like, heavy focus on beats with light control elements), aggro-control (equal mix, standard for Thresh), or aggro-control-control (more control-like but with finishers that are basically infinitely better)...Shriekmaw is better in the last of those three configurations.

lukatron2

11-04-2007, 01:08 AM

Nihil Credo

11-04-2007, 09:21 AM

What matchups?

Aggro and aggro-control. Threshold is terribly mana-hungry, so spending 1B instead of B *is* a big deal. Consider that...

having Crypt rape your removal in the ass

has literally never happened to me since Tarmogoyf was printed (because people stopped bringing Crypt in against me).
Also, as Kabal pointed out, Stifle is very popular these days, certainly much more than Crypt.

I'm not going to maindeck Shriekmaw, but I do have two removal slots in the SB that are currently used for extra Edicts - I will turn these into Shriekmaws and see how it works.

Anarky87

11-04-2007, 09:40 AM

Yeah, since when did Threshold start worrying about Crypt again? I just pretty much shrug it off when it's played, if the activation resolves. It's really pretty easy to just rebuild after one, and if the Thresh player isn't playing Artifacts, you just gave Goyf +1/+1 with Crpyt. Thanks, I'll trade my graveyard being small for a time being to make my Goyfs that much bigger.

aTn

11-07-2007, 07:50 PM

Does anyone have Machinus' UGb-Threshold list of TMLO 3 fame ? Thanks in advance.

Shriekmaw

11-07-2007, 07:53 PM

Does anyone have Machinus' UGb-Threshold list of TMLO 3 fame ? Thanks in advance.

It's probably the same as the Hatfields were running. Maybe asking them you could get a list. I'm sure in some time the decklists will be posted for The Mana Leak Open III.

Citrus-God

11-07-2007, 08:25 PM

Does anyone have Machinus' UGb-Threshold list of TMLO 3 fame ? Thanks in advance.

All I know about that list is that it doesnt have any Predicts in it and runs 4 Thoughtseize maindeck...

Happy Gilmore

11-08-2007, 11:41 PM

All I know about that list is that it doesnt have any Predicts in it and runs 4 Thoughtseize maindeck...

He is ahead of his time. Wait for the list from The Mana Leak and it will become obvious why. Predict has been cut from UGB Thresh in our metagame for almost a month now. It makes me sad, but there are better uses for those slots.

andrew77

11-08-2007, 11:52 PM

He is ahead of his time. Wait for the list from The Mana Leak and it will become obvious why. Predict has been cut from UGB Thresh in our metagame for almost a month now. It makes me sad, but there are better uses for those slots.

Damnit I can't wait anymore. Someone post the list now, please.

BreathWeapon

11-09-2007, 12:15 AM

If you're considering Shriekmaw, look into Volrath's Stronghold, because that land is like a ghetto Library of Alexandria in the control/aggro-control mirror.

Citrus-God

11-09-2007, 12:52 AM

If you're considering Shriekmaw, look into Volrath's Stronghold, because that land is like a ghetto Library of Alexandria in the control/aggro-control mirror.

Counterbalance shooting blind is a ghetto Library of Alexandria.

Aggro_zombies

11-09-2007, 11:29 AM

Counterbalance shooting blind is a ghetto Library of Alexandria.
Actually, with a Shriekmaw on top, it counters Force of Will.

I'm not sure reanimation is necessary in this deck, much less reanimation like Volrath's Stronghold. If you're absolutely desperate for reanimation in this deck, I'd consider the options in this order:

Unearth
Life//Death
Grim Harvest
Everything else

At least Grim Harvest is recurrable without messing with your counter engine.

EDIT: I'm also interested in Machinus's list now. Predict is by far the weakest draw spell I run, and I've been looking at cutting it but afraid of doing so because I like the card advantage in a deck where every other draw spell is card parity. The use of Night's Whisper briefly crossed my mind, but...seems bad.

Happy Gilmore

11-09-2007, 12:54 PM

EDIT: I'm also interested in Machinus's list now. Predict is by far the weakest draw spell I run, and I've been looking at cutting it but afraid of doing so because I like the card advantage in a deck where every other draw spell is card parity. The use of Night's Whisper briefly crossed my mind, but...seems bad.

There was a time when Predict was the best possible way of generating more than one resource a turn. But Counterbalance is so good that it breaks down the symetry, and provides more card advantage than Predict could ever hope to match. Combine that with Thoughtseize and you have a very deadly set up.

Aggro_zombies

11-09-2007, 01:12 PM

Nihil Credo

11-09-2007, 01:28 PM

There was a time when Predict was the best possible way of generating more than one resource a turn. But Counterbalance is so good that it breaks down the symetry, and provides more card advantage than Predict could ever hope to match. Combine that with Thoughtseize and you have a very deadly set up.
More importantly, Black Thresh already has a 2cc card advantage spell - it's called Dark Confidant.

Let's assume that I don't run Counterbalance because I use Pernicious Deed instead. Any other suggestions? I mean, I guess I could include Counterbalance in the sideboard, but I'm not sure I'd side it in against Threshold much when Deed already r0xx0rz that deck's s0xx0rz.

Prepare to fully assume the control role, a la Truffle Shuffle. Extra removal, Engineered Explosives, discard, big finishers (Tombstalkers). Take out the tempo cards, like Daze and Stifle. Also, if your (Deed+Explosives) total is high enough, say 5-6, you don't even need to bring in Krosan Grip to deal with Counterbalance. Try not to get them eaten by your opponent's Grips, though.

Resolving and protecting Dark Confidant is the absolute priority. In my experience, you can beat an opponent with CounterTop online if you have Dark Confidant online.

Aggro_zombies

11-09-2007, 03:28 PM

Prepare to fully assume the control role, a la Truffle Shuffle. Extra removal, Engineered Explosives, discard, big finishers (Tombstalkers). Take out the tempo cards, like Daze and Stifle. Also, if your (Deed+Explosives) total is high enough, say 5-6, you don't even need to bring in Krosan Grip to deal with Counterbalance. Try not to get them eaten by your opponent's Grips, though.

Resolving and protecting Dark Confidant is the absolute priority. In my experience, you can beat an opponent with CounterTop online if you have Dark Confidant online.
Well, that was the philosophy the deck was taking at this point in time anyway. Playing as a Thresh deck with the ability to play the mirror's worst matchup as well is very strong. I suppose I could go back to testing Bob, but life loss had been an issue for me in the past. With my version's lower curve and the presence of Top (no Counterbalance, though), I think it may be useful to run him again. I'll try it at my local tournament this weekend and put up results here.

Bardo

11-10-2007, 01:19 PM

I've been messing around with this list. It's good and fast.

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Ponder
2 Cunning Wish

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze

4 Thoughtseize

3 Smother

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Psychatog
2 Tombstalker

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Hydroblast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Misdirection
1 Naturalize
1 Berserk

Thoughtseizes are extremely flexible. Mental Note is to power out a quick Tomstalker and make Tog lethal quickly. Otherwise, it's a nice break from playing Threshold and pretty much plays the same. Give it a try.

Slay

11-11-2007, 03:36 PM

Bardo, why is Smother in your list over Ghastly Demise? It seems inferior especially considering Mental Note.
-Slay

Bardo

11-11-2007, 04:31 PM

I love Ghastly Demise and used to run it in earlier version of the deck. I still think Demise is fine as a sideboard card, but I'd rather have Smother in the main. It's all match-up dependent, but Smother shines over Demise vs. Tog, B/x, Affinity, or trying to stop a turn-2 3/4 or 4/5 Goyf. Overall, Smother just hits more targets that you're likely to see.

Edit.

Testing update (from list above):

-1 Mental Note
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Psychatog
-1 Daze
-3 Smother

+4 Nimble Mongoose
+3 Pernicious Deed

Nihil Credo

11-12-2007, 12:49 PM

Bardo, your list isn't TarmoTog, it's Black Threshold with extra removal and Togs instead of Confidants.

A key part of TarmoTog (which, by the way, desperately needs a better name) is its ability to "switch gears" and Intuition into some sort of recurring engine, whether it's Genesis, Gigapede, or Life from the Loam. This gives it a great lategame, especially against aggro-control decks. Your list lacks the punch of EOT Intuition.

Bardo

11-12-2007, 01:58 PM

@Bardo: tombstalker is not good with mongoose and atog, he is just a finisher that let you play it with mana open to counterspell.

Yeah, I cut them back to 1, but not because of its interaction with the graveyard, which is rarely a problem (re: Goose, Goyf and Tog), I'm finding the BB in the casting cost prohibitive. It's sorta like the Fledgling Dragon Problem in Red Thresh--where you need a healthy amount of blue mana to keep the deck running, the primary threats are in green, so having double mana of your tertiary support color is a stretch. Honestly, I'm not even sure he's needed, the deck mainly just wins on the back of Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. Though I did get a turn 4 kill yesterday with Tog + Wish/Berserk.

Bardo, your list isn't TarmoTog, it's Black Threshold with extra removal and Togs instead of Confidants.

I'm not going to argue with what to call it. My deck started out as a Loam Tog deck, that incorporated Tarmogoyf and has becoming more "Gro-like" ever since.

A key part of TarmoTog (which, by the way, desperately needs a better name) is its ability to "switch gears" and Intuition into some sort of recurring engine, whether it's Genesis, Gigapede, or Life from the Loam.

Well, that's Goaswerfraiejen's take on the deck. Mine's just quicker.

Your list lacks the punch of EOT Intuition.

It doesn't really want it. My list wants to commit threats, draw cards and win the game quickly. I'll definitely concede that the Intuition lists certainly have a better late game than mine.

Nihil Credo

11-12-2007, 02:33 PM

I'm not going to argue with what to call it. My deck started out as a Loam Tog deck, that incorporated Tarmogoyf and has becoming more "Gro-like" ever since.

I'm convinced you should post in the Black Thresh thread. You said it yourself, "it's a nice break from playing Threshold and pretty much plays the same". Your deck is much closer to the ones in that thread, and I'd be interested in hearing how you fare with choices like maindeck Pernicious Deed and Thoughtseize.

Moreover, from what you've written about White Thresh, it's generally known that you're a tempo/aggro player (see: Mental Note); in fact, I'm betting that you'll soon be cutting the Cunning Wishes. If you notice, every other list on this thread features that "tutor into broken recursion" aspect. TarmoTog only win fast if the opponent has a bad start and you draw enough countermagic for your opening creatures to go the distance; otherwise, it blows up the board and sets up to finish the opponent with a flying Gigapede.

Don't take these observation as an attack - Black Thresh is my favourite deck, TarmoTog one I enjoy, and randomly annoying people isn't one of my hobbies. I'm just pointing you in another direction, because your post was like someone dropping a Rifter decklist in a Wombat thread and commenting "My version splashes red for L-Rift. It's good and fast".

It's cool. I agree. Posts moved and merged. - Bardo

Bardo

11-12-2007, 03:22 PM

Damnit I can't wait anymore. Someone post the list now, please.

From Ray's TO report:

The Mana Leak Open III
(November 2007)
Christopher Coppola

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Portent

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Sea Drake

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Island

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Yixalid Jailer
3 Krosan Grip
3 Dark Confidant
1 Counterbalance

Looks awesome. Well done, Chris.

mackaber

11-12-2007, 04:00 PM

Wow no Bobs main! That must be wrong! The dark side of the force should never be denied!

Sigar

11-12-2007, 05:15 PM

Yea. Sea Drake over Bob looks like.. a joke?

EDIT: Even Tombstalker looks better.

Citrus-God

11-12-2007, 05:19 PM

The Hatfields ran 2 Bobs main, over 2 Portents.

As for the list being a joke, Sea Drake is amazing in this deck. Don't diss it.

Sea Drake is evasive, so it obviously breaks stalemates. It's a 3c card for Counterbalance. Pitches to FoW. Let's see Tombstalker counter something that's 3c.

lolosoon

11-12-2007, 05:50 PM

Let's see Tombstalker counter something that's 3c.
Let's see Tombstalker be countered in CounterTop wars.

Also, Stalker won't die to Smother, Ghastly Demise or Deed...
(and he do wins fights vs E.Angel, Serendib and Drake and can trade with Fledling Dragon)

Still, the BB in the casting cost might be a problem, as Bardo stated.

Bardo

11-12-2007, 06:05 PM

I'd be interested in hearing how you fare with choices like maindeck Pernicious Deed and Thoughtseize.

You predicted right - Cunning Wish isn't really pulling its weight. I dropped the Togs, Wishes and whole bunch of other stuff to fit in 3x Counterbalance / Divining Top and 4x Ghastly Demise. As long as your match-ups work out, Demise is great, not as good as StP, but serviceable.

Re: CounterTop - I'm sure other people are having mixed results with it too. The "combo," at times is such a bloody beating, at other times it does nothing and I'd so much rather have a regular old Counterspell than commiting mainphase permanents that can't attack and block. Like everything, it's going to be a "meta-call," but I'm not too impressed with it, even though many people have had a lot of success with it. Still needs more testing, but I might pack it in the sideboard and have a more flexible maindeck.

Re: Thoughtseize - It's weird, over the last few days of testing, I'd rather Thoughtseize was Duress. Between 8 fetchlands, Forces and especially Bob, the life loss is really getting noticeable and I'm usually nabbing non-dudes with Thoughtseize anyway. 'Might not be all it's cracked up to be, but again I still need to do a lot more testing with it.

aTn

11-12-2007, 06:15 PM

Sea Drake is amazing in this deck

I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but I'm not totally convinced that Sea Drake is amazing.

From the top of my head, here's the pros and cons I see:

+Evasion (and decent clock)
+Counter 3cc spells with Counterbalance
+Pitches to FOW
+Reasonable cc (does not require threshold to have evasion, can be played early in the game if need be)

-The come into play trigger is counter-tempoish (especially when considering Daze EDIT: and Top)
-It can be easily killed (e.g. Bolt, Serra Avenger, etc.)

For my play style, I really prefer Tombstalker. Sure, he requires BB, but it's not that hard to obtain (when facing Wasteland and Port, you can keep a fetch in play and an Underground Sea/Fetch in hand). Anyhow, I'm sure either choice is good, you just have to adapt your play style. Good job to Chris.

BreathWeapon

11-12-2007, 06:49 PM

Counterbalance shooting blind is a ghetto Library of Alexandria.

You can use the Stronghold to put a 1cc, 2cc, 3cc or 5cc card on top depending on whether or not it's Mongoose, Goyf and Confidant, Trinket or Shriekmaw and as long as you activate it on your opponent's EOT, there's nothing he can really do. If you have Top out, he can't even slip a Swords to Plowshares thru'.

Stronghold and Ruins are both awesome with Counterbalance, I don't see how you're getting "shooting blind" out of either of them. I think they're two of the best cards in Counter/Top Goyf decks.

lukatron2

11-12-2007, 06:52 PM

Re: Thoughtseize - It's weird, over the last few days of testing, I'd rather Thoughtseize was Duress. Between 8 fetchlands, Forces and especially Bob, the life loss is really getting noticeable and I'm usually nabbing non-dudes with Thoughtseize anyway. 'Might not be all it's cracked up to be, but again I still need to do a lot more testing with it.

With all that we might as well give the deck a sweet name like suicide thresh :p

Happy Gilmore

11-12-2007, 07:04 PM

I've played it before, notably at GP: Philly a year ago. I was less than happy with it, I always wanted something beafier. I personally do not think being able to protect it with top makes up for the drawback of being so easy to kill. I really like the Terravore idea though. In the mirror it becomes massive and trample is still very good as evasion. I really like tombstalker, but if you play him you have to consider switching out Demise and then Nimble Mongoose becomes a lot weaker. I find it very difficult to overcome all of these shotcommings at once without effecting the integrity of the deck. Black has always lacked a good finisher like white and red. It has DC which is great, but fetches +DC + Thoughtseize is a lot of life loss.

Citrus-God

11-12-2007, 07:09 PM

We could go back and review Posessed Aven or Posessed Centaur?

Happy Gilmore

11-12-2007, 07:25 PM

We could go back and review Posessed Aven or Posessed Centaur?

The Centaur may be good simply because it kills tarmogoyf and gives practically every green deck fits. But I think there are two cards that really need to be explored, Jace and Garruk. They cannot be killed by Deed, WoG, or any kind of creature removal. They are good enough to test imo.

Aggro_zombies

11-12-2007, 08:16 PM

The Centaur may be good simply because it kills tarmogoyf and gives practically every green deck fits. But I think there are two cards that really need to be explored, Jace and Garruk. They cannot be killed by Deed, WoG, or any kind of creature removal. They are good enough to test imo.
Garruk, yes...but Jace, no. Using his +2 ability isn't really that great in any matchup, and if you just use the draw ability, he's a ghetto Compulsive Research without the discard. Garruk has a lot of potential, though.

Shriekmaw

11-12-2007, 08:33 PM

The Centaur may be good simply because it kills tarmogoyf and gives practically every green deck fits. But I think there are two cards that really need to be explored, Jace and Garruk. They cannot be killed by Deed, WoG, or any kind of creature removal. They are good enough to test imo.

If your looking for a creature that is good against green creatures, then I would suggest to take a look at Dunerider Outlaw from Planar Chaos. I know he is double black in the casting cost, but would be hard to deal with for a lot of decks. I think he is an interesting sideboard choice to say the least.

I wonder if he is something that should be worth considering?

Happy Gilmore

11-12-2007, 09:13 PM

If your looking for a creature that is good against green creatures, then I would suggest to take a look at Dunerider Outlaw from Planar Chaos. I know he is double black in the casting cost, but would be hard to deal with for a lot of decks. I think he is an interesting sideboard choice to say the least.

I wonder if he is something that should be worth considering?

I may be paranoid but I'm very causious about additions 2 and 1cc creatures. I think the finisher should be a cc that is hard to counter via CB. Yea, I know I have the mirror match on the brain, but besides Tarmogoyf no other 2cc creature comes into play with that kind of PT. It should also have evasion and be hard to kill.

The beaf:
Possessed centaur
Possessed Aven
Sea Drake
Garruk
Tombstalker

Utility:
Jace (I don't want to dismiss him too hastily, but I do agree with most points on his legacy playability)
Dark Confidant

Any other options you guys can think of?

Aggro_zombies

11-12-2007, 09:44 PM

Any other options you guys can think of?
Wydwen, the Biting Gale. She has played very well to date and has a positive matchup versus queer jokes.

Goaswerfraiejen

11-12-2007, 10:18 PM

I may be paranoid but I'm very causious about additions 2 and 1cc creatures. I think the finisher should be a cc that is hard to counter via CB. Yea, I know I have the mirror match on the brain, but besides Tarmogoyf no other 2cc creature comes into play with that kind of PT. It should also have evasion and be hard to kill.

The beaf:
Possessed centaur
Possessed Aven
Sea Drake
Garruk
Tombstalker

Any other options you guys can think of?

Anavolver - Excellent choice for the slot, but requires fairly heavy mana investments to be particularly effective.
Necravolver - Less good.

Shriekmaw
Phyrexian Negator - Both have evasion and both have higher casting costs, but they're not very hard to kill. Alternately, I can think of.

Errant Ephemeron - Obviously not such a great choice
Moroii - Inferior to other options.
Ivy Elemental A more consistent Quirion Dryad, I suppose--except that it requires heavy mana investments to make it effective.
Blizzard Specter - Meh.
Ifh-Biff Efreet - Yay!
Iwamori of the Open Fist - Could work.
Troll Ascetic - Mentioned and dismissed in UGr thread due to mana investment for minimal returns.
Serendib Djinn - Obvious tough drawback.
Waterspout Djinn - Meh.
Wormfang Crab - Waiting to backfire.
Wormfang Drake - Plausible.
Hunted Wumpus - Well, maybe. I could almost see it.
Timbermare - Mmmmno.
Waning Wurm - Yeah. No.

Those are all the options that come to my mind (that more or less fit your criteria--a couple don't, beyond being fat and fairly cheap) that have not been mentioned yet, and none seems all that attractive.

etrigan

11-13-2007, 01:58 AM

Treacherous Vampire is probably you're biggest evasive black guy without BB in the cost. He's not likely to die in combat, and his lose 6 life wont trigger off StP, so that drawback can be mostly avoided.

Ebon Drake's also an option, but I doubt it.

Aggro_zombies

11-13-2007, 02:26 AM

Ebon Drake's also an option, but I doubt it.
Serendib Efreet is lightyears better than Ebon Drake.

Nihil Credo

11-13-2007, 11:15 AM

I've been very happy with Tombstalker, personally. I've changed the numbers on it, running anywhere from 1 SB to 2 MD depending on the meta, but I wouldn't consider anything else in this place, really. I'm puzzled as to why people dislike him.

If I understand it correctly, the problems are:

1) Often shrinks Mongoose and turns off Demise
2) BB is hard to get
3) Deals 8 damage with Confidant

But, based on my experience:

1) First of all, you'll rarely Delve the full six. I'm often in topdeck mode when I drop the 'Stalker, and choose to pay 3-4 mana for it. I've never sent my graveyard under 5 with delving... and I don't run Mental Note either. So Demise has never been affected, and Mongoose was usually shrinked for a turn or two at worst. I think the worst that happened to me was having to gamble on my opponent not topdecking an StP, and using a 1/1 Mongoose to chump while Stalker flew over for the win.

Of course, the above assumes you want to use Tombstalker as a finisher, like I do. If you want an extra evasive beater to go aggro (the way the Hatfields used Sea Drake), then I can see this being an issue, as you'd want to cast it as soon as possible.

2) I highly recommend running a basic Swamp in Black Thresh. It's Polluted Delta-friendly, and it's critical to not get cut off from your removal spells (or Bob, but it's mostly the removal spells). As a side benefit, it makes double-black very easy to get, even under Wasteland-lock.

3) You should definitely run 11-12 cantrips; even assuming none of them is Sensei's Divining Top (which probably should be, in this meta), with that configuration the majority of your Dark Confidant draws will have been pre-set by a cantrip.

Bardo

11-13-2007, 11:35 AM

re: Tombstalker. 2) BB is hard to get

Everything else is managable, it's the BB that's being prohibitive in testing--this week and when I started messing around with after FS came out.

My current manabase:

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp

Expensive sucker. :)

Nihil Credo

11-13-2007, 12:08 PM

I'm surprised you're having problems. I run -2 Flooded Strand, +1 Island.

Unless... wait a moment... you're running 4 Mental Notes instead of a digger! Well, that may explain it, I run 4 BS / 4 Ponder / 3 Portent / 4 Dark Confidant, so I tend to see a bit more cards than you on average.
Throw in your aggressive playstyle, and I'd say it's enough to switch to Sea Drake. Now that will be expensive! :P

Joon

11-13-2007, 02:28 PM

This is my current list

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Underground Sea
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LOR] Ponder
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [ON] Smother
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 [FUT] Tombstalker

I'm very happy with it although I really want to fit in one Basic Island and maybe one Basic Swamp and one or two Stalker main.
And what do you think - which removal is better: Demise or Smother? The split is definately nice as Smother kills namely everything but gets countered by Spellsnare and that sucks a little bit.
What would you cut for 1-2 Stalker for teh main? And how would you rework the Manabase for Basics?

Thanks.

Aggro_zombies

11-13-2007, 08:15 PM

I'm very happy with it although I really want to fit in one Basic Island and maybe one Basic Swamp and one or two Stalker main.
And what do you think - which removal is better: Demise or Smother? The split is definately nice as Smother kills namely everything but gets countered by Spellsnare and that sucks a little bit.
What would you cut for 1-2 Stalker for teh main? And how would you rework the Manabase for Basics?

Thanks.
Smother is generally better until the late game, where the two are comparable.

I don't like Stalker with Bob and Thoughtseize, but that's just me. While we're on the subject, Thoughtseize is almost always worse than Duress...which I've been saying for a while, so it's nice to see people finally starting to agree.

Drop Wasteland for the basics.

Goaswerfraiejen

11-13-2007, 08:32 PM

This is my current list

I'm very happy with it although I really want to fit in one Basic Island and maybe one Basic Swamp and one or two Stalker main.
And what do you think - which removal is better: Demise or Smother? The split is definately nice as Smother kills namely everything but gets countered by Spellsnare and that sucks a little bit.
What would you cut for 1-2 Stalker for teh main? And how would you rework the Manabase for Basics?

Thanks.

Personally, I think that Smother is actually better in the current metagame. I used to run Ghastly Demise and it was great, but it had too many limitations (graveyard + no black creatures). Especially when I was playing with Tombstalker, although to be fair I seldom cast the 'stalker for much more than three or four cards.

If you don't feel comfortable with only three removal pieces, I would suggest Shriekmaw in Demise's two slots--two is a small number, and with all of the cantrips, you should be able to avoid hitting it with Confidant. Plus, not only does it ramp up your lategame aggression, it also plays the same role that Demise did: hitting creatures with converted mana costs above 3 (neither can hit black, and very few artifact creatures being played have a converted mana cost above 3). The one downside is that Tombstalker will be much harder to run in conjunction with it due to the potential life loss.

I would actually reconsider Confidant's role in the deck, simply because you've got so much MD draw power already. Besides, with Forces, Thoughtseize, and fetchlands, Confidant's life loss is probably more of a handicap than anything, I think. I realise that I'm one of the few around here who is ever in favour cutting the Confidant, but I think that you could really ramp up the aggression if you substituted another creature for it. Two Tombstalkers and a single something else would be interesting, especially if you went with the Shriekmaw idea.

I think that I would probably go the following route with your list:

-3 Wasteland (the deck needs coloured mana too much and can't really afford the tempo loss-especially not with Daze)
-3 Dark Confidant
-2 Ghastly Demise

+1 Swamp
+1 Island
+2 Bayou (Green is a minor colour, black is major; you need to be able to fetch just about any colour with your fetches)
+2 Tombstalker
+2 Shriekmaw

Kronicler

11-13-2007, 08:57 PM

First of all I definitely agree that Smother > Demise. I'm happy to pay 1 more for my removal if I can depend on it's ability to kill shit.

Second of all it is best, IMO, to go either 4 Wasteland 4 Stifle or none of either. LD strats thrive on redundancy, not randomness. Randomly wasting your opponents single land may be good but it isn't going to be great. Being able to do that twice could be gamebreaking. I know that 6 vs 8 LD effects isn't a huge difference but I truly think that you need to commit to it or not do it at all.

Third, I agree with Aggro Zombies that Duress > Thoughtseize. Originally I was all for thoughtseize. I mean a duress that can take creatures for only 2 mana? Count me in! I mean heck, I'd rather take 2 from that Goyf than take 4 from it swinging at me. The thing is that most of the time people don't hold creatures in their hand. There are of course exceptions, like in the first 2 turns of the game or when people are trying to play around mass removal, but in general I see people playing those Goyfs almost as soon as they can in order to either block an opposing goyf or start bashing their defenceless opponent. Either way the point is that after the early game most people aren't going to sit with creatures in their hand unless they are already bashing your face in and don't need another threat, in which case taking a creature out of their hand isn't going be much help. Spells, on the other hand, sit in people hands all fuckin day. Want to cast that tombstalker without it dying? Duress their removal / counters. Getting low on life? Duress their burn they are saving to burn you out unexpectedly. Think they are waiting for you to over extend and play some mass removal? Duress it. My point is that spells sit in peoples' hands when you don't want them there while creatures are on the board or in peoples' hands when you couldn't care less (cept first few turns). Also, I have to say that Bob is amazing in this deck. There is no way to deny that, and yet Bob + fetches + Thougthseize (and don't even think about throwing tombstalker into the mix with Bob) is too much life loss. Over in the 4c Countersliver thread we found the same thing with Hibernation Sliver + fetches + Thoughtseize. IMO I'd rather run one of the best draw engines ever printed than what will usually be a subpar duress.

Kronicler

Aggro_zombies

11-14-2007, 05:44 PM

Third, I agree with Aggro Zombies that Duress > Thoughtseize. Originally I was all for thoughtseize. I mean a duress that can take creatures for only 2 mana? Count me in! I mean heck, I'd rather take 2 from that Goyf than take 4 from it swinging at me. The thing is that most of the time people don't hold creatures in their hand. There are of course exceptions, like in the first 2 turns of the game or when people are trying to play around mass removal, but in general I see people playing those Goyfs almost as soon as they can in order to either block an opposing goyf or start bashing their defenceless opponent. Either way the point is that after the early game most people aren't going to sit with creatures in their hand unless they are already bashing your face in and don't need another threat, in which case taking a creature out of their hand isn't going be much help. Spells, on the other hand, sit in people hands all fuckin day. Want to cast that tombstalker without it dying? Duress their removal / counters. Getting low on life? Duress their burn they are saving to burn you out unexpectedly. Think they are waiting for you to over extend and play some mass removal? Duress it. My point is that spells sit in peoples' hands when you don't want them there while creatures are on the board or in peoples' hands when you couldn't care less (cept first few turns). Also, I have to say that Bob is amazing in this deck. There is no way to deny that, and yet Bob + fetches + Thougthseize (and don't even think about throwing tombstalker into the mix with Bob) is too much life loss. Over in the 4c Countersliver thread we found the same thing with Hibernation Sliver + fetches + Thoughtseize. IMO I'd rather run one of the best draw engines ever printed than what will usually be a subpar duress.

Kronicler
One thing you failed to mention is that running Duress or Thoughtseize means you are in black, and therefore have access to the best creature removal in the game after Swords. Compared to discard, creature removal is a significantly less dead draw in the late game versus decks that aren't control because it's far better in situations where your opponent is playing things from the top or has limited resources. It's also better post-Deed (it being removal) because they will most likely lay out creatures as quickly as possible in order to race you, giving discard a very narrow window within which to operate.

In the control matchup, Duress is still better anyway because control doesn't really play creatures (maybe a few...), and Duress will hit all of the same relevant spells without the life loss. Believe it or not, your life total can actually become important versus contol, especially if they draw removal-heavy hands and kill your Goyfs. Speaking of which...

I played this deck last weekend at a local tournament ("this deck" being my version of black thresh, the more control-oriented build). The meta was Thresh-dominated previously but it seems all the Thresh players decided to stay home this time and thus the meta was overrun with Goblins and burn, which I was not prepared for due to some last-minute sideboarding changes that dropped Plagues from my board. I dropped after going 1-2-0 (the top four was two Goblins versus two burn decks, who woulda thunk it), but the match I won was against Truffle Shuffle...

Going off those results and previous (scant) encounters with control on MWS, I can say with some confidence that there are a couple of things that make or break that matchup for you. The first is the ability to play around sweeper effects, which I always do with my build because I run maindeck Deeds...it's become somewhat habitual now. Really, though, you only need a few threats versus control...riding a Mongoose to victory is one of the more common ways to do it, since Goose is easier to protect than Goyf, and riding Wydwen to victory is another, since she disappears when threatened and is great against decks packing a lot of sorcery-speed removal (EOT Wydwen, swing on your turn, unsummon her when they try to kill her...hi5!). Unearth is also reeeaaaally good versus control because it forces them to answer all your threats twice, and it can always dig for :2: if you don't need it. The jury is out on how often you want to hold it versus cycling it, though. Third, smart application of discard is really important. I don't have any general rules of thumb yet, other than "pick the most immediate or biggest threat to your assault."

Shriekmaw

11-15-2007, 07:18 PM

This is my current list

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Underground Sea
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LOR] Ponder
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [ON] Smother
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 [FUT] Tombstalker

I would replace thoughtseize with duress if you are going to run dark confidant. The life loss in your deck is kinda scary. You have 7 fetches, 3 dark confidants, and 4 thoughtseize. Plus, in how many matchups is thoughtseize actually better than duress?

The sideboard looks alright expect for tombstalker. I just believe there are better options for creatures than tombstalker. I think he is a good creature, but with dark confidant its more of a risk to put into your deck. You are already playing with Force of Wills, I'm not too crazy by adding another big drop into your deck.

I would like to see another cantrip over stifle, but thats just me.

Brushwagg

11-15-2007, 09:33 PM

I just believe there are better options for creatures than tombstalker

If you can name some I'd be all ears. I've tested alot of creatures for this deck and found Tombstalker the best flyer. Plus with the addition of Goyf it's not that much of a hinderance. I've been able to keep Goyf big with my graveyard after casting TS.

The thing I don't agree with Wasteland. Making your mana base weak against Wasteland to play Wasteland is just bad IMO. Don't get mw wrong it's my favorite part of U/G, and it just wins games, but I feel the 3 and 4 color lists need their basics to survive, because there is going to alot of times where Stifle and Wasteland will only go so far.

Shriekmaw

11-15-2007, 11:20 PM

If you can name some I'd be all ears. I've tested alot of creatures for this deck and found Tombstalker the best flyer. Plus with the addition of Goyf it's not that much of a hinderance. I've been able to keep Goyf big with my graveyard after casting TS.

The thing I don't agree with Wasteland. Making your mana base weak against Wasteland to play Wasteland is just bad IMO. Don't get mw wrong it's my favorite part of U/G, and it just wins games, but I feel the 3 and 4 color lists need their basics to survive, because there is going to alot of times where Stifle and Wasteland will only go so far.

I know a lot of people like tombstalker and I do agree he is a good creature, but as of right now I'm not a big fan of him if your running confidant. If you don't run confidant main deck, then Tombstalker is increasing in value. The creature I'm playing over him with confidants is pyschatog in the deck. Its a good finisher and can take any creature down in the format.

I know if may seem a little wierd to run psychatog in a threshold deck, but he is a solid creature that can win the game easily if unblocked. IDK, what do you think?

Kronicler

11-16-2007, 12:28 AM

I really don't think the Stifle + Wasteland suite should be ignored even in 3 color thresh lists. I play it in UGR thresh and it just wins soooo many games. While my lack of basics can sometimes be painful, it is usually only a problem against decks where I would pretty much lose anyways (read: 43land playing tabernacle + recurable wasteland) and the harm it does is no where near how much it can help.

Kronicler

Goaswerfraiejen

11-16-2007, 03:09 AM

I know if may seem a little wierd to run psychatog in a threshold deck, but he is a solid creature that can win the game easily if unblocked. IDK, what do you think?

Psychatog could work, sure, but you haven't really got much in the way of deck support for it. Sure, you can amass a graveyard, but you can seldom afford to discard much (due to the lack of recursion), meaning that Psychatog will be of little value beyond the purely psychological. Without at least a way to give it evasion, I think it's a no-go--especially since (and I've said this before--many times--elsewhere) Tombstalker is basically a Psychatog that can't pump for more than 5 damage. The drawback is the same, more or less, but the Tombstalker is far more independent, consistent, and likely to swing the game in your favour.

I really don't think the Stifle + Wasteland suite should be ignored even in 3 color thresh lists. I play it in UGR thresh and it just wins soooo many games. While my lack of basics can sometimes be painful, it is usually only a problem against decks where I would pretty much lose anyways (read: 43land playing tabernacle + recurable wasteland) and the harm it does is no where near how much it can help.

Kronicler

My own concern about Wasteland is rather that it greatly reduces your consistency, keeping you away from necessary mana colours (and 12 cards in your sideboard need at least two colours to be of use). The other worry that I have is that it's a huge tempo loss in a deck that really needs to take its early drops. This problem is further aggravated by the presence of Daze.

Stifle + Wasteland is powerful, yes, but it's very hard to make it work to the deck's advantage in a 3-colour aggro-control shell.

EDIT: I just want to add that when playing against 43land, Extirpating Life from the Loam and Needling Maze of Ith (if appropriate--sometimes there are more important targets) will give you a fighting chance, so long as you don't spill too far into the late game. Volrath's Stronghold could help you extend your play-time into the late-game, and some form of evasion for your creatures could as well (like Wonder, for example, but that's another deck entirely). Use your removal to disable Nantuko Monastery especially, since it pwns your Mongeese (your most important creature due to untargetability--followed by Shriekmaw and Tombstalker because of their evasion; Goyf is basically a deterrent).

Anarky87

11-16-2007, 01:29 PM

Stifle + Wasteland is powerful, yes, but it's very hard to make it work to the deck's advantage in a 3-colour aggro-control shell.

I would have believed this if Gencon hadn't happened. But it did and showed that it can be done and rather successfully. I've had nothing but positive results since including the LD package. Acquiring double colors isn't really that hard to achieve even with Wasteland. Although in my deck I only have Counterbalance as the only double colored card. But it's not like coming across UU is difficult in a deck that was designed to filter through as many cards as it can. Not to mention can operate off of 1 land.

Nihil Credo

11-16-2007, 02:07 PM

In my experience, Stifle and Wasteland can be played in 3c, although at a not insignificant price, in order to steal lots of game off sheer tempo advantage.

But if your deck is able to let you draw two cards a turn and counter every one of your opponent's spells for :1:, then it's probably better to try to pull off this game-plan as consistently as possible.

BreathWeapon

11-16-2007, 04:18 PM

Thoughtseize vs Duress

The important thing is that Thoughtseize isn't a dead card against Goblins at any point in the game where Duress is always a dead card against Goblins unless you luck sack their Aether Vial. After a point, Thoughtseize does becomes worse than Duress because of the 2 damage and the absence of creatures in an opponent's hand, but before that point is reached, Thoughtseize will either win games or prevent you from losing games that Duress can't. Being able to discard a Cephalid Illusionist/En-Kor, Goblin Welder, Xantid Swarm, Goblin Lackey or other "key cards" that are creatures in the first two turns is more important than losing some life over the long.

Ask yourself these questions, can you afford 4 dead cards against Goblins? Can you afford not to discard a "key card" on your first turn? Can you afford a shock here and there?

Duress just makes great match ups greater, that isn't what Threshold needs. You could just play Stifle and maintain the same great match ups while improving the Goblins match up. Thoughtseize is similar to Stifle, in that it works against both combo, aggro and anything in between, but it's not a reactive card, which gives it unique strengths/weaknesses.

Stifle and Wasteland

I think the biggest problem with the Stifle and the Wasteland configuration is that people are more willing to sacrifice consistency than to devote space. If you'd just count a Wasteland as .5 mana/.5 spell and use a 19 land mana base, you'd be playing a better deck in the long run.

Finishers

I think Tombstalker is fine, he'd be better if people cut Mongoose and looked into a creature base with Quirion Dryad or Trinket Mage, both of which are creatures that actually DO something against the other Threshold decks. Don't get me wrong, Mongoose was great when he stopped Lackey cold, but now you don't have to worry about Lackey, and Mongoose is just a vestigial organ left over from Legacy pre-Tarmogoyf. If you just play a creature that over whelms Tarmogoyf or you play a creature that sets up the "back breaking" Counter/Top lock, you're already way ahead of every one else in the mirror.

Psychatog

I don't think Psychatog is that bad, you just have to look at Psychatog as a "lock" that doubles as a win condition. With Psychatog on the board, you can either Abyss your opponents or 1 point them to death until you can safely commit to the win. You don't have to play Psychatog like Hulk Smash style Psychatog, he's a fairly solid/flexible creature in his own right.

Dark Confidant

Cutting this card just makes me scratch my head, if you're cutting Dark Confidant because you have too much draw, then you should be cutting every draw card that isn't Dark Confidant until you find the balance, because no draw says "must counter" like Dark Confidant.

Extended

I think the format is building better "Threshold" decks than we are at the moment. They seem to be completely concentrating on the mirror, which is what we should be doing, but they are way more successful at actually starting from scratch and achieving their objective. A lot of the chaff like Predict, Note, Mongoose etc. needs to be culled, and we need to look into cards that can be justified for their power level instead of their synergy, especially when that synergy isn't really needed any more.

Aggro_zombies

11-16-2007, 04:58 PM

Thoughtseize vs Duress

The important thing is that Thoughtseize isn't a dead card against Goblins at any point in the game where Duress is always a dead card against Goblins unless you luck sack their Aether Vial. After a point, Thoughtseize does becomes worse than Duress because of the 2 damage and the absence of creatures in an opponent's hand, but before that point is reached, Thoughtseize will either win games or prevent you from losing games that Duress can't. Being able to discard a Cephalid Illusionist/En-Kor, Goblin Welder, Xantid Swarm, Goblin Lackey or other "key cards" that are creatures in the first two turns is more important than losing some life over the long.

Ask yourself these questions, can you afford 4 dead cards against Goblins? Can you afford not to discard a "key card" on your first turn? Can you afford a shock here and there?

Duress just makes great match ups greater, that isn't what Threshold needs. You could just play Stifle and maintain the same great match ups while improving the Goblins match up. Thoughtseize is similar to Stifle, in that it works against both combo, aggro and anything in between, but it's not a reactive card, which gives it unique strengths/weaknesses.
You're placing a lot of premium on the Goblins matchup here, but Goblins has been on the decline since before the Flash Fiasco. Furthermore, discard is a sideboard strategy at best that only really shines against decks in it for the long haul (the control matchup). The rest of the time, counters are generally a superior answer.

Psychatog

I don't think Psychatog is that bad, you just have to look at Psychatog as a "lock" that doubles as a win condition. With Psychatog on the board, you can either Abyss your opponents or 1 point them to death until you can safely commit to the win. You don't have to play Psychatog like Hulk Smash style Psychatog, he's a fairly solid/flexible creature in his own right.
But solid and/or flexible doesn't mean you should run him. Psychatog would be a finisher, since the core creatures are Mongoose and Goyf, but there are better creatures than a 1/2 card disadvantage engine without evasion.

Extended

I think the format is building better "Threshold" decks than we are at the moment. They seem to be completely concentrating on the mirror, which is what we should be doing, but they are way more successful at actually starting from scratch and achieving their objective. A lot of the chaff like Predict, Note, Mongoose etc. needs to be culled, and we need to look into cards that can be justified for their power level instead of their synergy, especially when that synergy isn't really needed any more.
I built my Thresh deck with the mirror in mind. If it's such a problem for you, why not do something about it? I assume by the "we" you used that you have a list in mind?