[Goldfish Genocide] Iggy, SI, TES, Belcher.

[Iranon]

Here a quick goldfish comparison between the 4 most popular fast combo decks in the format (at least I think they are... did I miss anything?). While it would be more relevant if a player with more experience had provided the numbers for each, they should be telling if we can assume that I am equally incompetent with each. (Personally I'd say I'm weakest with TES, and circumstances don't favour it as such anyway; see more below).

I apologise in advance for rambling, but testing data is fairly meaningless unless it's clear what was tested, and how. Here is what I did:

I played 100 goldfish games with every deck (50 on the play and 50 on the draw), aiming to win turn 4 at the very latest.
Anything past a turn 4 goldfish was counted as a loss (even if I had a 62-goblin army after much weirdness and cursing of MWS, or an active Belcher backed up by several blockers).

When going for Empty the Warrens, a first turn chain resulting in 10 goblins was considered acceptable only on the play. 14 was deemed good enough turn 2 on the draw, 12 at any time in between.
I never got a turn 3 Empty the Warrens for 20+, either because I couldn't or because I had a more immediate way to win.

Where applicable, I used versions that emphasised consistency over disruption; the exception being Xantid Swarm since The EPIC Storm doesn't make an awful lot of sense sense without it (at least not without other alterations). Having said that, if I played IGGy Pop under tournament conditions I would probably play Leyline of the Void maindeck.
Likewise, I opted to combo out immediately with TES rather than waiting for a turn to get a swarm online if the choice existed. No reason to punish the deck even further - 4 'dead' cards and stringent requirements for Empty the Warrens mayhem is already borderline unfair.

Generally, I played rather conservatively. Belcher and Spanish Inquisition in particular have the capability to be somewhat faster if your opponent is leering at you in a disturbing manner and you feel like you have to outrace the hate: the former by mulliganing more agressively, the latter by using draw-4s more recklessly. Naturally, this will result in more fizzles though.



If people are interested, I will go into details with notes on the individual decks (i'm not sure how much though. You can't really turn an overview over 4 very different decks into 4 simultaneous deck discussions...) but for raw speed and consistency, here the relevant number of cumulative kill/combo (the latter including a sufficient number of goblins) percentages turn 1 through 4.


Belcher (kill)................10/34/78/93
TES (kill)....................10/36/69/88
Spanish Inquisition.......41/68/83/90
IGGY Pop.....................9/44/88/96
Belcher (combo)..........41/72/85/93
TES (combo)...............21/61/83/88


Spanish Inquisition putting up the largest number of turn 1/2 wins by far shouldn't surprise anyone. What did impress me was the consistency (which, however, drops dramatically if you push the deck past its limits, which you likely will do in tournament settings. It is, after all, comparatively fragile).

Belcher only got a single turn 1 win on the play in 50 games, disappointing. On the other hand, Empty the Warrens was the dog's bollocks. Not only does it enable the deck to do something early on with frightening consistency (the 'combo out' numbers marginally surpass those of SI, without squanderíng precious life points) and it also means your opponent needs the correct hate to stop you.

TES was at a disadvantage anyway, had its Xantid swarms flapping about aimlessly, witnessed Belcher lay down more Goblins than it ever would and proceeded to do the only natural thing: it took it out on me with many near-misses and atrocious draws off brainstorm/plunge/returns. Well, the deck doesn't truly shine until someone to stop it so a lacklustre performance in a goldfishing contest isn't a real point against it.

IGGy Pop was as solid and consistent as always. There is little to say about this, other than that the Impulses weren't doing enough to justify abandoning Yawgmoth's Mindtwist.

[Bane of the Living]

Could you provide any decklists? You explained that Iggy has Impulse over Leyline and that TES is the original build but whats the Belcher list look like? Did it use terrible cards like Goblin Welder? Was it 2 color? Did you have Burning Wish or Living Wish?

[Iranon]

The Belcher list I used was red/green, running a full complement of Burning Wish, and 7 'terrible' cards in 3 Goblin Welder and 4 Wild Cantor. While the Welders were rather use-impaired in goldfishing, the Cantors made a modest but significant contribution even in a 2-colour list as free storm, mana storage, allowing me to make good use of multiple Tinder Walls and occasional colour filtering for wish targets.

Living Wish was a notable exclusion; which I am not certain to be the correct choice. I haven't missed it in goldfishing, but in real games the reduced threat density could become a problem that overshadows the advantages of greater consistency and a marginal speed boost.




SI was a fairly standard build geared towards speed, with 10 free creatures, 2 diabolic intent, 2 ill-gotten gains.



While the choices might seem odd, there was a reason for them: I systematically went for consistency first, speed second, resilence third as long as the resulting decklist seemed at all justifiable, mostly because I don't trust myself to make realistic mulligan decisions knowing there is no opponent to fight back otherwise. Emulating actual tournament play is beyond the scope I had in mind, which is also why I didn't include decks with a significant control angle.

[troopatroop]

How good are you with TES? It's probably the hardest to play of the 4.

[Di]

How good are you with TES? It's probably the hardest to play of the 4.


While it would be more relevant if a player with more experience had provided the numbers for each, they should be telling if we can assume that I am equally incompetent with each. (Personally I'd say I'm weakest with TES, and circumstances don't favour it as such anyway; see more below).

[BreathWeapon]

Living Wish changes the Belcher numbers, Living Wish -> Minions of the Wastes for 19 is a turn two kill and for 10 is a turn thee kill, Living Wish -> Ancient Tomb increases the number of turn 2 kills with Belcher.

Did the Burning Wish SB have Diminishing Returns? It increases the number of turn one and turn two wins with Goblins Charblecher and the number of turn 2 wins with Empty the Warrens.

[Iranon]

OK, to forestall questions about what the other decks looked like... here is what I ran, along with detailed win percentages.



Belcher

2 Taiga
4 Land Grant

4 Simian Spirit Guides
4 Elvish Spirit Guides
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor
3 Goblin Welder

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens



4 Xantid Swarm
4 Shattering Spree
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Simplify
1 Cave-In
1 Pyroclasm
1 Deconstruct



On the play (Kill/Goblins)

Turn 1..... 2/28
Turn 2.....24/ 8
Turn 3.....20
Turn 4.....10
Doh!.........8

On the draw (Kill/Goblins)

Turn 1.....18/34
Turn 2.....26/ 6
Turn 3..... 6
Turn 4..... 6
Doh!........ 4




IGGy Pop

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Intuition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor

4 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Tendrils of Agony

1 Chain of Vapor



4 Dark Confidant
4 Orim's Chant
3 Defense Grid
2 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Wipe Away



On the Play

Turn 1..... 4
Turn 2.....22
Turn 3.....62
Turn 4..... 8
Doh!........ 4


On the Draw

Turn 1.....14
Turn 2.....48
Turn 3.....26
Turn 4..... 8
Doh!........ 4



Spanish Inquisition

2 Bayou
4 Land Grant

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Ornithopter

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent

4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
2 Ill-Gotten Gains

3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher


4 Cabal Therapy
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Tomb of Urami



On the Play

Turn 1.....30
Tuirn 2.....28
Turn 3.....20
Turn 4.....10
Doh!........12

On the Draw

Turn 1.....52
Turn 2.....13
Turn 3.....10
Turn 4..... 4
Doh!........ 8



TES

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tomb of Urami

4 Xantid Swarm

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

4 Brainstorm
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Burning Wish

1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-gotten Gains

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens


1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tranquility
2 Shattering Spree
4 Dark Confidant
1 Earthquake
1 Duress



On the Play (Kill/Goblins)

Turn 1.....10/ 4
Turn 2.....18/10
Turn 3.....36
Turn 4..... 8
Doh!........ 14

On the Draw (Kill/Goblins)

Turn 1.....10/18
Turn 2.....34/18
Turn 3..... 8
Turn 4..... 2
Doh!........10

[emidln]

I'm glad to see SI get a little bit of attention. I don't know how much time you have, but a build we've been playing recently was splash blue. It goes like this from the list you have posted:

-4 Land Grant
-2 Bayou
-1 Goblin Charbelcher
-2 Diabolic Intent
-2 Ornithopter

+2 Polluted Delta
+2 Flooded Strand
+2 Underground Sea
+1 Brain Freeze
+3 Meditate
+1 Tendrils of Agony

I'm fairly sure that it feels faster, but I don't keep track of my hands anymore. I might goldfish it a bit and get back to you with the results.

[CalebD]

Living Wish changes the Belcher numbers, Living Wish -> Minions of the Wastes for 19 is a turn two kill and for 10 is a turn thee kill, Living Wish -> Ancient Tomb increases the number of turn 2 kills with Belcher.

Against what decks are you going Living Wish-> Minions for 19? FS, Red Thresh, Gobbs, and Burn all have ways of dealing you one measly point of direct damage. Most other decks have ways of dealing with a 19/19. Yes, you can gain your life back from StP, but they're still gaining crazy good card advantage, card advantage that I'd rather not be giving them.

Living Wish for Ancient Tomb on turn one costs 2 mana, and since you can only play one land a turn the only way you're gaining a solid 2 mana on turn two is with the combination of Chrome Mox-Land, which is the probability of getting one of 4x(chrome), 6x(land), and ?x(Living Wish) all in your starting hand. Odds are that isn't going to happen, and you'll end up with one of each of 10x(permanent source of mana) ?x(Spirit Guide/Lotus Petal) and ?x(Living Wish). This means that you only get a netgain of +1 mana on turn two, meaning that Living Wish->Ancient Tomb is only as good as a Desperate Ritual. If that +1 Mana was the difference between winning that turn and winning on turn one, Desperate Ritual would have won it for you on turn one.

So yes, Living Wish->Ancient Tomb does increase the number of turn two kills... by taking away from the number of turn one kills. Delayed Desperate Ritual=Frownz.

Lastly, why Ancient Tomb>City of Traitors? 2-4 life can mean the difference between games, even in this deck.

As for the actual Belcher list Iranon used, I think it's comparitively worse than CRET Belcher. Goblin Welder is hated/played around/easily dealt with, and isn't nearly as good/necessary as Xantid Swarm is in TES/Leyline of the Void is in Iggy, so why run it? It just seems like it adds an outlet for their spot removal for no real reason.

Removing Dark Ritual also seems to make the deck slower/worse.

[Di]

Belcher sb:


4 Xantid Swarm
4 Shattering Spree
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Simplify
1 Cave-In
1 Pyroclasm
1 Deconstruct

Why is there no Empty the Warrens in here? That basically neglects the entire concept of using LED with Burning Wish (aside from Dreturns), not to mention it's also a win condition.

[Iranon]

@ Diablos: My bad. Of course there was an EtW there, and one less Shattering Spree. EtW was the most wished-for card, naturally.

@ CalebD: Goblin Welder is a direct result of my disaffection with Living Wish, which you seem to share. There just isn't really much left in Red/Green (and if someone mentions Orcish Lumberjack, I will slap them).
Dark Ritual is a wonderful accelerant; even though it can bottleneck your mana engine early on. I found bad Belches ending in a Bayou quite an annoyance though; together these factors made me drop black.

@ Emidln: I will certainly give it a try, although I can't say speed is my main concern (although I brewed up a B/r list with Kobolds as a theoretical exercise. Now THAT was fast... otherwise, the advantage of a Burning Wish Toolbox was overshadowed by a lack of good blockers though).
While the reliance on Fetch lands looks good against counters, it has no outs to True Believer and seems weaker to Pyrostatic Pillar, while being stronger against counterspells pre-board.

[BreathWeapon]

Against what decks are you going Living Wish-> Minions for 19? FS, Red Thresh, Gobbs, and Burn all have ways of dealing you one measly point of direct damage. Most other decks have ways of dealing with a 19/19. Yes, you can gain your life back from StP, but they're still gaining crazy good card advantage, card advantage that I'd rather not be giving them.

Living Wish for Ancient Tomb on turn one costs 2 mana, and since you can only play one land a turn the only way you're gaining a solid 2 mana on turn two is with the combination of Chrome Mox-Land, which is the probability of getting one of 4x(chrome), 6x(land), and ?x(Living Wish) all in your starting hand. Odds are that isn't going to happen, and you'll end up with one of each of 10x(permanent source of mana) ?x(Spirit Guide/Lotus Petal) and ?x(Living Wish). This means that you only get a netgain of +1 mana on turn two, meaning that Living Wish->Ancient Tomb is only as good as a Desperate Ritual. If that +1 Mana was the difference between winning that turn and winning on turn one, Desperate Ritual would have won it for you on turn one.

So yes, Living Wish->Ancient Tomb does increase the number of turn two kills... by taking away from the number of turn one kills. Delayed Desperate Ritual=Frownz.

Lastly, why Ancient Tomb>City of Traitors? 2-4 life can mean the difference between games, even in this deck.

As for the actual Belcher list Iranon used, I think it's comparitively worse than CRET Belcher. Goblin Welder is hated/played around/easily dealt with, and isn't nearly as good/necessary as Xantid Swarm is in TES/Leyline of the Void is in Iggy, so why run it? It just seems like it adds an outlet for their spot removal for no real reason.

Removing Dark Ritual also seems to make the deck slower/worse.

I use Minion of the Wastes when I have to, or during games 2/3 when the opponent has SBed out his otherwise worthless Swords to Plowshares for Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives. Minion of the Wastes for 19 or 10+/- is a choice, if the opponent can remove the creature, then 19 is the right choice, if the opponent can deal direct damage then 10+/- is the right choice.

Belcher draws Land Grant or Taiga less than 50% of the time, that means that more than 50% of the time there is no land on the board, so casting Living Wish is at worst 3 cards for 2 mana that puts a land on the board that will produce 2 mana to cast Belcher and 2 mana to activate Belcher on the following turn; a net gain of 4 mana for 2 mana and a card. When the deck does draw a Land or a Taiga, Living Wish is either a win condition, a Goblin Welder, Wasteland, removal or at worst one card and passing the turn for an additional 2 mana on the second turn and 3 permanent mana on the board.

I use Ancient Tomb because the deck can still top deck a Land Grant or a Taiga on the second turn, and sacrificing the land isn't a good idea in case the deck has to pass the turn or gets Stifled.

Dark Ritual and Bayou are awful, misfiring Belcher and losing to Tin-Street Hooligan is absolutely unacceptable.

[B.C.]

I'm glad to see SI get a little bit of attention.

I second this. The majority of my attention from the time I started playing Legacy has been on this deck. I can confidently say that I've spent as more time working on this deck than just about anybody (perhaps emidln and company excluded). This is the list I'm going to try out post-Future Sight:

2 Bayou
4 Land Grant

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Tombstalker

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain
2 Ill-Gotten Gains

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin Charbelcher

Side:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Duress
2 Tombstalker
2 Tomb of Urami
3 Naturalize

Cabal Therapy is a HUGE card for improving the consistency of this deck. It slows the goldfish down a couple turns, but it vastly improves the "fragility" you mentioned earlier. Also, Tombstalker will be an awesome addition to this deck. I may even try to find a way to fit in 4x Street Wraith.

I've had a lot of success with this deck. I think it's underrated.

[BreathWeapon]

Have people tried cutting the 0cc creatures and Culling the Weak and just building a deck with turn 2 to 4 kills with disruption? Being able to double Tendrils and bait Force of Wills with Ritual->Draw 4 seems good against control and aggro-control to me.

Basic concept list,

4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Brainstorm
4 Unmask
4 Duress

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

11 Lands

[B.C.]

I've thought about something like that, but I haven't tested it. It certainly looks like it's worth a try. I'd still include 1 EtW, though.

[BreathWeapon]

I've thought about something like that, but I haven't tested it. It certainly looks like it's worth a try. I'd still include 1 EtW, though.

I figure the opponent wont know what I'm piloting, if all I do is cast Duress or Brainstorm on the first turn, and I can Unmask him to discard the Meddling Mage if I have to. I've got a Tomb of Urami in case Meddling Mage names Tendrils, and there are 4 Warrens and 3 other Tomb of Urami in the board.

SB

4 Empty the Warrens
1 Bad Lands
3 Tomb of Urami
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Chain of Vapor

4xTomb of Urami is an awesome SB card, Swords to Plowshares is SBed out and it avoids all of the Goblin remove, and it can be SBed in to increase the land count.

I haven't figured it all out, but it seems promising as it is.

[hi-val]

I'd like to thank you for doing this, it is very interesting to see actual data. Legacy, in particular, suffers from a lot of sit-and-thinkers compared to actual testers. This combo comparison is valuable for me to look at.

How long did it take you to test this? Why were you motivated to test it?

Thanks again!

[Iranon]

I tried many possible variations of Contract Tendrils because I respect the sheer power of the deck concept. Sacrificing speed for resilency seems good on paper because the deck has plenty of the former and rather little of the latter, but I couldn't make it work in practice.

Force of Will is not adressed effectively in this fashion unless we are talking exlusively about Solidarity. Force of Will without a clock only delays the inevitable - it sets your opponent back considerably, and a resolved draw-4 can give you enough hideously broken things to overpower a typical counter wall.
Since you typically burn a lot of your own life points, a clock in addition to disruption becomes relevant and by extension so does the time the free blockers buy you.

Moreover, draw-4s overpower non-specific hate because any card you draw is either stupidly powerful or an enabler to cast your doom spells (and free creatures are such an enabler as well, doubly so if you run diabolic intent). When you fizzle, your position is often akin to having a Belcher on the table - you might be unable to do anything meaningful now, but that can turn into a win with a decent topdeck. SI has the added bonus that the odds are usually harder to calculate for an opponent.
By running protection that doesn't help winning outright, you water down an aspect of the deck that is a tremendous help for what you are trying to achieve by the alterations in the first place.

Now for the proactive hate which can really do a number on the deck: Your ungodly speed gives your opponent a very short time window to play it. Going off in their face is better than playing disruption yourself. Having them discard a Sphere of Resistance only to see a topdecked True Believer enter the picture sucks (with the list I ran, I can at least try to belch it to death... lists optimised for a heavy disruption package will probably have to abandon that option).

The old adage that there are no wrong threats, just wrong answers is very true for fast combo in my opinion. 'Do you have Force' becomes 'Do you have Force or cheap Discard?' which becomes... 'Do you have anything at all?', because we have to take a decent clock into account, Direct Damage is even worse.

Ok, so far that was a little one-sided. Disruption can be quite helpful in one specific situation: When an opponent can and will mulligan agressively into something backbreaking, and when our own disruption can answer most of the usual suspects.

In my opinion, it is justifiable to leave this until game 2 and 3. In many match-ups I side in Xantid Swarms, Cabal Therapy, or both. In the version I run, 2 creatures and Diabolic Intent are safe to board out without upsetting much. If I suspect graveyard hate, out go the Ill-Gotten Gains. If those stay in, 2 Contracts can be cut if I face a significant amount of reactive and proactive hate and want to have both protection cards.
It bears mentioning that Xantid Swarm is still a cheap creature that can be sacced for Culling the Weak, and that Cabal Therapy can do triple duty: removing a proactive hate during the setup stage, probe for the most inconvenient reactive hate before going off and increasing storm for free.



A card which increases resilency by providing varied answers to common problems is Burning Wish. It also speeds you up by being another efficient tutor.
Gobbling up Sideboard slots isn't much of a problem in my opinion, colour requriements are. Apart from Massacre, few fetchable silver bullets are black, most are red, some tempting options totally off-colour. I'm not convinced it's worth reworking the entire manabase, but if you are willing to do this I would look no further. With the usual 2-Duals, 4-Fetches approach, you need to include something horrible like Simian Spirit Guide or Kobolds to make this work as intended.

[BreathWeapon]

The problem I have with "The Spanish Inquisition" is that it's designed to win on turn one, but instead of just using win conditions and acceleration ala Belcher, it uses 0cc creatures, sacrifice based tutors and acceleration and relies on drawing cards. Why bother? There's nothing wrong with using Draw 4's in combo, even when their included in other combo decks they're a respectable bomb, it's just a question of whether or not a deck based on Draw 4's is viable, and what that deck "should" look like.

The turn one "Force or no Force" argument doesn't take game two into account; game 2 the opponent can mulligan into his Force of Will or his Stifle, the two cards that are the universal answers to all of combo's threats, and combo must have an answer to this.

Adding disruption into the MD isn't worthless, because taking the time to Xantid Swarm or Duress etc. prevents game one losses to Force of Will, and it answers one important question "what deck does the opponent have?" People will scoop after a turn one Tendrils of Agony or Goblin Charbelcher kill, and people can scoop after an Empty the Warrens or Minion of the Wastes etc. That leaves the combo deck at a conundrum about what to do with its side boarding, or as I call it the "MD Tendrils Effect."

Edit: Duress isn't a serious MD consideration in this format, IMO, because most aggro-control and control decks are going to use Stifle before Duress, Goblins, and the opponent is going to get a chance to Duress you when you are on the draw any way.

I've seen Belcher absorb a Duress on the draw and still win on the next turn; combo decks can be built to absorb the loss of one card, it's when the final card is lost that the combo is SOL.

[Iranon]

I'd like to thank you for doing this, it is very interesting to see actual data. Legacy, in particular, suffers from a lot of sit-and-thinkers compared to actual testers. This combo comparison is valuable for me to look at.

How long did it take you to test this? Why were you motivated to test it?

Thanks again!


I'm glad you found this of interest.

I prefer to sit down and think myself most of the time. Goldfishing is a far cry from real play, and actual playtesting for enough matches to have statisitically significant results is a draining and arduous process. Testing is a necessary evil I will undertake when I believe sitting down to think won't get me anywhere further.

One motivation was opponents mocking me for playing 'bad inconsistent decks', then accusing me of being 'an incredible lucksack' when I thought I had in fact average to slightly weak draws. I wanted to know if turn-1-decks were truly as inconsistent as people said they were.

SI fizzling turn 1 and never recovering with a hand that was practically guaranteed to kill turn 3 with a decent chance of becoming lethal turn 2 doesn't imply inconsistency. Neither does Belcher mulling a hand that will belch on turn 3 into one that will ETW for a metric fuckton turn 2 into junk. It implies you weren't confident in your deck's resilence.

Resilence is a different matter entirely, and one that warrants 'sitting down and thinking' as well as real playtesting... and is beyond the scope of this. Discard, Counters, Pyrostatic Pillar, Cave-In, True Believer, Meddling Mage, Taxing Effects... resilence can mean many different things. Each of these will affect the match-ups, to dfferent degrees.





The turn one "Force or no Force" argument doesn't take game two into account; game 2 the opponent can mulligan into his Force of Will or his Stifle, the two cards that are the universal answers to all of combo's threats, and combo must have an answer to this.

That's why I agree totally cutting disruption/protection is a mistake. Your argument for maindecking it has merit, but that detracts from the deck's consistency. Most matches you don't need it for are favourable anyway... this is essentially 'proactive sideboarding' and metagame-dependent.

Reworking the entire deck to make this a part of my overall game plan did not result in anything that satisfied me so far.

[B.C.]

Have people tried cutting the 0cc creatures and Culling the Weak and just building a deck with turn 2 to 4 kills with disruption?

I threw this together and tested it a bunch of times. It seems very good. The disruption doesn't slow down the deck too much (it goldfishes turn 2-3), and from experience it will likely help against any deck that's not pure aggro. Pure aggro decks (i.e. Goblins) shouldn't be a problem anyway.

BW-BC Tendrils

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach (Unmask didn't seem very good since I usually want to keep as many cards in my hand as possible)
4 Duress

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp

[BreathWeapon]

Street Wraith is really useful in a combo deck that can use it as a part of it's plan, i.e. Doomsday can use it in order to draw the Brainstorm off of the top of the Doomsday stack or to draw the Doomsday after a Mystical Tutor, but unless there is a specific card I want to cut from a combo deck, I refuse to "Mulligan on the Margins" with this card.

Is there a reason people use one more IGG and two less Tendrils? I find double Tendrils with discard is amazing against control, and extra Tendrils can be discarded to Unmask or Chrome Mox.

Unmask is great, discarding Meddling Mage on the draw is its biggest selling point, but discarding a Force of Will to protect a Dark Ritual into a Draw4 is decent.

[B.C.]

I sort of agree with you about Street Wraith. I'm trying it out for a while to see how effective it is, but so far it's only been ok. Plus, the life loss can be significant late in the game.


Is there a reason people use one more IGG and two less Tendrils? I find double Tendrils with discard is amazing against control, and extra Tendrils can be discarded to Unmask or Chrome Mox.

Two IGG will guarantee a storm count of 10 if you have Infernal Tutor and 2 LED or Cabal Rit w/ threshold, even if you have no other cards to play. Plus, I've found that a turn 1 IGG on the play, even if you can't win that turn, is usually a really good start. Theoretically, you get to play out most of your hand, then get back 3 cards that will get you there in the next few turns. Meanwhile, your opponent goes from a 7 card hand to a 3 card hand. Quite a change.

As for Tendrils, the potential to Tendrils twice is good in theory, but it probably won't happen often enough to make it worth running 4. Tendrils in your opening hand is essentially a dead card. Being able to pitch it to Unmask or Chrome Mox is paltry consolation prize. Tendrils is something I want to draw into when I'm going off, or tutor for as a final play.


Unmask is great, discarding Meddling Mage on the draw is its biggest selling point, but discarding a Force of Will to protect a Dark Ritual into a Draw4 is decent.

Unmask is good, but removing a black card is a heavy cost in a deck that needs as many cards as possible. Meddling Mage shouldn't concern you too much since the emergence of EtW. Especially in SI, where Belcher is also part of the equation, you should always have a win condition available.


I tested your suggested Tendrils build a lot yesterday, going through a few iterations along the way. I finally got to a build that was sort of like a 3 color TES, with Burning Wish and Rite of Flame, but with Duress instead of Xantid Swarm and Draw 4's instead of Plunge. It was ok but not great.

I think for now I'm going to stick with SI. For one, Culling the Weak was greatly missed. It's an unparalleled mana accelerator. Free robots might seem clunky and not worth 8 spots, but in tournament play I've often found them to be very useful. When forced into a long game, you'll need those blockers. Plus, they let you run CtW as well as Cabal Therapy, the best discard in the game.

[BreathWeapon]

I find if I start with a Tendrils in hand, all I have to do is sculpt the hand with enough card advantage to either cast the Tendrils for 10 storm or double Tendrils, and I almost never use the Infernal Tutor and Ill Gotten Gains chain in order to win against aggro-control unless the coast was clear, at which point it was a free win either way.

I will use Infernal Tutor just for Tendrils of Agony tho', or small ball multiple Tendrils of Agony against aggro-control or even control.

I'm not certain the concept is Tier 1, but I think there's a lot that could be done with it in a non-SI shell if some one had the time to look for it.

[Misobizo]

Hi there,

First I want to congratulate Iranon for the very relevant data he produced. This will for sure be very useful comparing different strategies.

For myself, I’ve been playing with SI for a bit, though I never brought it to a tournament (still missing the cruel bargain…. ). It surely is one of the fastest combo deck ever, with the huge drawback of being very vulnerable for games 2 &3 (assuming you won game 1).I would like to make a few comment based on my own experience.

In my opinion, there is no point trying to include more disruption into the maindeck. That would just ruin your entire strategy based on speed and consistency. Even cabal therapy which has awesome synergy with the whole deck (storm, clearing the way, 0cc creature etc…) doesn’t belong in the maindeck,

Therefore, everything will depend on the sideboard. There is, I think, 2 different approach for side boarding with this deck :

The first one consist on diversifying your kill conditions. Belcher & tendril can be neutralized by a bunch of stuff : meddling m, pithing n, true beliver, orim’s chant, rule of law etc…. I think there are 2 really good answers there : empty the warrens & tombstalker. EtW has the major inconvenient of being red, which means you must have a lotus petal or LED to cast it but it rocks. Tombstalker is also really good assuming your opponent doesn’t play STP.

The other approach consist on considering the most important threats to this deck, the cards that just wreck it and can actually make you fold on T1 and siding hate against these worst-case-senario. Apart from counterspells which are a constant concern but can obviously be fought with cabal & duress, the most annoying stuff are chalice of the void, sphere of resistance and trinisphere. One of this 3 cards hitting the table means instant loss and your opponent can get it in play very quickly with all the stompy-like decks around.

So here is a list of cards I think could fit in the sb :

Duress
Cabl therapy
Xantid swarm
Empty the warrens
Tombstalker
Naturalize

Also, I don’t see the point including street wraith…..

[Iranon]

Thanks for the appreciation!

The data isn't perfect though, and in some cases downright misleading:

Belcher can and will get first-turn kills on the play; probably around 10% rather than the measly 2% of my test runs. On the other hand, I don't think it kills by turn 4 as consistently as my tests indicated.

The TES results are a consequence of the very strict requriements I placed on Empty the Warrens. If you mulligan two useless hands into one that will get you 8 goblins on the play/10 goblins on the draw, you still have a decent chance of winning. It didn't meet my requirements though, so I had to somehow get a lethal Tendrils out of that or mulligan to 4. Right.
The deck got by far the most 'fails' that might still have won. Belcher was less affected by this because of their larger amount of fast mana - if they had access to ETW, they could usually cast it for a bunch.
In short, the deck is consistent despite my numbers; if anything it lacks raw power.

SI felt about right, Iggy Pop overall performed a bit better than it usually does from my experience.




Re SI: In theory, I would rather rely on speed and consistency than disruption with this deck. The problem is, SI would be an excellent 56-card deck but the last 4 slots are filler. Whether Diabolic Intent and additional free critters, surplus win conditions, a splash or maindecked disruption, you have to run something suboptimal to get to 60 cards.

I doubt Street Wraith will be able to take that spot given that the deck can easily knock itself down to 2 life without help from the opponent. It remains a choice of damnations.

I tested the list I used for goldfishing, one with maindeck Therapies, a blue splash for Meditate and a red splash for Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens (emergency use only). I can think of valid arguments for each. Belcher means an opponent has a smaller time window to lock us out completely with Chalice/Taxing Effects even if we have a slow hand, hence my dislike for the blue splash. The red splash at least gives us a Burning Wish toolbox to adress the hate and is the other version I would consider because it's quite resilent by SI standards. However, you will either lose strategic superiority to Aggro decks (if you run Kobolds) or the consistency of early kills will suffer (if you don't).

[B.C.]

For anyone who's interested, I wrote a short primer a while ago about SI on our local site:

http://www.stlmtg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23&start=0

I played the deck for the first time at the Legacy World Championship last summer. I played a no-disruption version with 11 robots, 7 draw 4's, 3 IT, 2 DI. Through 8 rounds of Swiss I recorded 8 turn 1 kills, and finished 5-3 in 28th place overall. Since then I've played a few more tournaments with mixed success. Some current thoughts:

1. I like Cabal Therapy. It doesn't make you win any faster, but it makes your tough matchups managable pre-board. I'm actually well over .500 against Threshold in tournament play.

2. Play EtW main. It's the best combo card released in a long time. Maybe even add a third land (Taiga) so that you can always get Red.

3. Street Wraith isn't good in this deck. It was something I tried out, but at the very least the life loss can be extremely relevant in some situations.

4. The Blue version is fine. Brainstorm is always nice to have, and it can certainly help your combo, but Belcher is such a tasty card that I hate to go without it.

[emidln]

For anyone who's interested, I wrote a short primer a while ago about SI on our local site:

http://www.stlmtg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23&start=0

I played the deck for the first time at the Legacy World Championship last summer. I played a no-disruption version with 11 robots, 7 draw 4's, 3 IT, 2 DI. Through 8 rounds of Swiss I recorded 8 turn 1 kills, and finished 5-3 in 28th place overall. Since then I've played a few more tournaments with mixed success. Some current thoughts:

1. I like Cabal Therapy. It doesn't make you win any faster, but it makes your tough matchups managable pre-board. I'm actually well over .500 against Threshold in tournament play.

2. Play EtW main. It's the best combo card released in a long time. Maybe even add a third land (Taiga) so that you can always get Red.

3. Street Wraith isn't good in this deck. It was something I tried out, but at the very least the life loss can be extremely relevant in some situations.

4. The Blue version is fine. Brainstorm is always nice to have, and it can certainly help your combo, but Belcher is such a tasty card that I hate to go without it.

I've actually been playing the third mana producing land over the 4th fetch in the blue version (for 3 Meditate, 1 Brain Freeze, 0 Brainstorm, SB: CoV, SB: H.Recall) for some time now, but I play 3x black fetch, 2x Sea, 1x Bayou. This is to support Xantid Swarm out of the board as well as not auto-scoop to Trinisphere in game 1. Recently due exclusively to Meditate and the extra lands, I've beaten stuff like active counterbalance (I've tested 22 games so far preboard and I'm 15-7). Untapping with 10 cards in hand + draw per turn due to meditate is almost always a game win. I've also found interesting situations with LED + Infernal Tutor that let me play more aggressively since I can Brain Freeze an opponent out as well. While I miss Belcher, Brain Freeze is a fine addition to the deck, and a interesting turn 1 play, even if it's only for 7-8 storm against control (milling a good portion of their control spells is excellent as long as the deck isn't Threshold).

As for Brainstorm, I've never played more than 2 in the deck, and 2 was at least 1 too many. It is absolutely abysmal to see the second Brainstorm anytime, with brainstorming into Brainstorm being the worst case scenario. I wouldn't recommend playing any more than 1.

[B.C.]

emidln, would you consider running 4x Land Grant, 2x Bayou, 1x Trop to support your Blue cards? This would allow you to still have Belcher in the deck.

[emidln]

emidln, would you consider running 4x Land Grant, 2x Bayou, 1x Trop to support your Blue cards? This would allow you to still have Belcher in the deck.

I did but I didn't really like it. The problem with Trop is that it doesn't tap for black. I really need to be able to dark rit -> draw4 turn 1 and then have two mana sources for turn 2, one of which is blue. Unless I happen to hit lotus petal or another land grant, I wouldn't have mana up for Meditate (unless I just play it off LED). I suppose it's possible, and Belcher is huge, but the extra information that fetches don't provide has proven critical in several control games.

Even with fetches in the deck, it's possible to run belcher as your 2nd win condition, since it will still avoid all manners of chalices, pyrostatic pillar, mage, rule of law, and other nonsense, but simply be slower. Also, a big use of belcher is to just kill mage and then combo off with Tendrils (possible if you didn't use LED for belcher). We moved to Brain Freeze because it was possible to generate a lot of storm and then IT cracking LED for UUU to cast brain freeze without extra mana. This let us do dangerous things like cast that extra draw4 going down to BB knowing we can always just Brain Freeze our opponent out.

That said, I wonder what happens if we saturate ourself with lands. Think about this. We take a list and add in extra fetches or land grants to it. This would help us out a lot in figuring out what to do with the final 4 slots (cutting it down to 1-2 we'd need) while adding starting mana sources (the most critical part of the deck). I think that B/g could probably get away with adding 1-2 fetches, while the B/u list could probably cut several meditates for Land Grants (becoming almost mono-black except board). As a bonus, the reservations about Brainstorm put aside might allow some to be added to the deck (1-2).

[B.C.]

It's certainly worth testing. Maybe it will make me mulligan less.

[APriestOfGix]

With the rise of Threshold (being more focused on blue) and the fact that more Stifles/Daze/FoW are in the top decks (Breakfast, Landstill, Thresh) would you say this dramatically changes any of these four decks win%'s.\

I believe that it makes SI much less of a threat, as on the draw, they have much more disruption to worry about and noting to stop it with.

Belcher is hit second hardest, for although they have many win conditions, and Warrens, they still can't stop stifle.

IGGy and TES both still seem like strong choices, as both run some combination of (TES) Chant/Swarm, and (IGGy) Chant/Swarm/Force of Will.

[emidln]

QSI ignores largely ignore Stifle and Daze while maindecking 4 Therapies with a very real possibility of playing it 8 times. Combined with the ability to stall and optimize with Brainstorm, Meditate, and tall men, I would say this makes it a better choice right now.

If you are playing Iggy with Forces then your list is really screwed up. Iggy plays Chant/Abeyance/Swarm/Duress for protection, with a focus on the former two. TES plays Chant/Abeyance/Swarm/REB. I would go for a combo list that plays at least 2 draw4s (which, actually, my Iggy list, TES, and QSI all play) due to their insane setup.

The key here is to not aim for the goldfish kill. Any good SI pilot will tell you that, as will the better combo pilots in general, as long as you're still alive, you're fine. Sculpting a hand to go off turn 2-10 is fine if that's what it takes. I've killed with SI on turn 1 on the play as well as turn 30 on the draw. To DCI Reporter, when I kill my opponent makes no difference.

[DeathwingZERO]

The key here is to not aim for the goldfish kill. Any good SI pilot will tell you that, as will the better combo pilots in general, as long as you're still alive, you're fine. Sculpting a hand to go off turn 2-10 is fine if that's what it takes. I've killed with SI on turn 1 on the play as well as turn 30 on the draw. To DCI Reporter, when I kill my opponent makes no difference.

With decks like TES and IGGy, that's really a bad idea. TES especially, as later in the game your backup outlet (EtW), is sorely weak after the first turn or two, when sweeper effects are online, and Mages can hit play.

The same kind of applies for IGGy, but only because the Abeyance just means another counterspell they need to have, which is probably pretty commonplace by turns 6-10ish.

While it doesn't make a difference when you kill the opponent, it will make a huge difference after game 1 when you attempt to go off, knowing whether or not they play with countermagic or disruption. Both can completely nullify your clock or just shut you down if given too much time, especially decks like Landstill and Thresh, which build up nothing but countermagic walls over time.

[emidln]

With decks like TES and IGGy, that's really a bad idea. TES especially, as later in the game your backup outlet (EtW), is sorely weak after the first turn or two, when sweeper effects are online, and Mages can hit play.

The same kind of applies for IGGy, but only because the Abeyance just means another counterspell they need to have, which is probably pretty commonplace by turns 6-10ish.

While it doesn't make a difference when you kill the opponent, it will make a huge difference after game 1 when you attempt to go off, knowing whether or not they play with countermagic or disruption. Both can completely nullify your clock or just shut you down if given too much time, especially decks like Landstill and Thresh, which build up nothing but countermagic walls over time.

The key here is to proper use of baiting. You have a lot more threats than they have counters for. You especially have more threats progressively than they have counters for. This means you need to keep up pressure testing for holes in their defensive wall. When you find one, be it on turn 2 or turn 20, you go for the kill. This is how combo is properly played. Going in blindly loses the game, as does forcing yourself to combo by a particular time. You bait with bombs like Chant, Abeyance, Swarm, Confidant, IGG, Grim Tutors, Burning Wish, ETW and Draw4s. I'd highly recommending using Confidant and ETW for small amounts to test the waters and keep up the pressure.

Iggy can easily double Tendrils past turn 4, even the standard versions. Playing Chant, getting it countered, playing another chant/abeyance and getting it countered to follow up with a tendrils or double tendrils isn't really all that hard. It's rather easy if you wait for your opponent to do something stupid like tap his lands on his main phase so you can guarantee a certain number of counters/stifle effects relative to hand size and his use of force.

I'm not so sure about how TES deals with a prolonged game anymore, but in the past it was relatively good at a long game due to a high threat density.

[DeathwingZERO]

The key here is to proper use of baiting. You have a lot more threats than they have counters for. You especially have more threats progressively than they have counters for. This means you need to keep up pressure testing for holes in their defensive wall. When you find one, be it on turn 2 or turn 20, you go for the kill. This is how combo is properly played. Going in blindly loses the game, as does forcing yourself to combo by a particular time. You bait with bombs like Chant, Abeyance, Swarm, Confidant, IGG, Grim Tutors, Burning Wish, ETW and Draw4s. I'd highly recommending using Confidant and ETW for small amounts to test the waters and keep up the pressure.

Iggy can easily double Tendrils past turn 4, even the standard versions. Playing Chant, getting it countered, playing another chant/abeyance and getting it countered to follow up with a tendrils or double tendrils isn't really all that hard. It's rather easy if you wait for your opponent to do something stupid like tap his lands on his main phase so you can guarantee a certain number of counters/stifle effects relative to hand size and his use of force.

I'm not so sure about how TES deals with a prolonged game anymore, but in the past it was relatively good at a long game due to a high threat density.

Personally, against a good control player, the only "bait" you have with IGGy should be 1) Infernal Tutor w/Hellbent, or 2) IGGy, or 3) Abeyance. Anything other than that are actually pretty safe non-counters, as the combo is very hard pressed to pull 10 spells without the IGG chain or eventually a Hellbent IT. Possible, yes, but not easy when in late game, as you can only keep a hand count of 7, thus either ditching cards or playing acceleration just so you don't discard it.

As far as TES was concerned, late game in 2 and 3 typically meant either absolute luck from your opponent just being a bad player (like tapping out on their turn after say turn 3), or scooping when you can't do anything about Chalice @ 1 followed immediately by 2 (unlikely, maybe...but for some reason Fairie Stompy did this to me on much more than 1 occasion, and often by turn 2). If you are unable to Burning Wish, that Shattering Spree in your Sideboard really didn't matter.

Where both are concerned, the addition of Stifle to maindecks of so many variants of Landstill and some Thresh/Countersliver decks in the area, and you've got a very, very bad matchup rate for these two combo decks. I would say in this case that IGGy is better than TES though, as EE, Deed, E. Plagues, Pyroclasms, and quick blockers means that the EtW plan doesn't work nearly as much as hoped, plus Abeyance/Orim's Chant are much better than Xantid Swarm, mainly because they don't need to wait a turn and go through an attack step. In either case, I've found Confidant to be rather subpar, especially in IGGy with so many 3-4cc cards, in addition to cheap and efficient beaters hitting you/blocking the confidant. The clock pressure I found by having him in play just wasn't worth the tempo advantage.

These are mostly just what I've seen from playing in my area though. I haven't even played IGGy post addition of white protection, and TES I never took to a tournament, just playtested it against various control/aggro-control decks. In total, I can think of at least 6 players I'd see regularly with either a UG/x Thresh, UWbg Landstill, or counter-slivers deck. Very, very annoying.

[emidln]

Personally, against a good control player, the only "bait" you have with IGGy should be 1) Infernal Tutor w/Hellbent, or 2) IGGy, or 3) Abeyance. Anything other than that are actually pretty safe non-counters, as the combo is very hard pressed to pull 10 spells without the IGG chain or eventually a Hellbent IT. Possible, yes, but not easy when in late game, as you can only keep a hand count of 7, thus either ditching cards or playing acceleration just so you don't discard it.

(1) This is why I play Grim Tutor. It is always a must counter.
(2) Even with this strategy, you would likely lose to single or double tendrils quite a bit.
(3) Like it or not, petal, dark rit, ETW is a significant play against you because the bait is in that it forces you to spend mana on your main phase to deal with it. This is what I want since then I will either be chiping away at your life total (making Tendrils easier) or you won't be able to play as many counterspells/stifles, which is ideal. Dark Confidant by itself is a significant play for a similar reason.

[DeathwingZERO]

(1) This is why I play Grim Tutor. It is always a must counter.
(2) Even with this strategy, you would likely lose to single or double tendrils quite a bit.
(3) Like it or not, petal, dark rit, ETW is a significant play against you because the bait is in that it forces you to spend mana on your main phase to deal with it. This is what I want since then I will either be chiping away at your life total (making Tendrils easier) or you won't be able to play as many counterspells/stifles, which is ideal. Dark Confidant by itself is a significant play for a similar reason.

1) I haven't playtested much of the Grim Tutor action, as I wasn't willing to spend another $300+ to get 3 more for a deckset when I had one.
2) The issue is the fact they have maindeck Stifles. They really could care less what your doing when they either see you attempt to build storm count via acceleration, or not play crucial spells in the first turn or two, if they fear the wrath of a second storm card. Chances are, they will wait until a tutor effect is played, or you are down to the last card or two, which is usually a complete "tell" for them that your attempting the double-storm play.
3) I know that the low storm count of EtW is still an effective stall, but for the most part, their EE or Pyroclasms come online on their turn 1 or 2. If they are on the play, that means you took them down by 6 points while you lost 3 spells from hand to do so. It's much easier for them to sculpt a hand prepared for you than it is you for them. They know what to hold onto, while you only know they have answers. And I can't even name the number of times I've seen Confidant hit the board, and not even see another upkeep. If he did, he never swung for the damage, because a good control player knows that if you get card advantage every turn over them, the life loss will not matter when they've hit you for lethal from a storm count of say, 4.

Again, this is my playtesting scope. I've almost never won a match against U/G/w Thresh, and that was before maindeck Goyf's causing a ruckus (however to be fair, also before maindecked Chant's, which I hope to seriously improve the matchups). As far as Counterslivers and Landstill are concerned, they've both got ways around the EtW plan, via maindeck Stifle or sweeper effects/blockers with higher than 1 toughness chipping away at your small army.

[FoolofaTook]

I've been doing a lot of testing with IggyPop lately and its consistency is matched by how consistently it loses to decks running counters and Duress. It's also lousy against any other deck playing MD Leylines of the Void. The most excruciating mirror I've ever seen game 1 is two IggyPop variants both with Leylines out.

[DeathwingZERO]

I've been doing a lot of testing with IggyPop lately and its consistency is matched by how consistently it loses to decks running counters and Duress. It's also lousy against any other deck playing MD Leylines of the Void. The most excruciating mirror I've ever seen game 1 is two IggyPop variants both with Leylines out.

Doesn't IGGy still run a maindeck bounce spell to get to especially because of Leylines going maindecked? Also, I've noted through extensive testings against Deadguy Ale and Red Death, that Duress itself rarely phases me. It's Duress + Hymn or Therapy (with multiples of something in hand), etc....that's a painful one. I do find that most of the time, a single resolved IGG pretty much trumps discard decks, though. All I've ever done there is just race whatever clock they have. Typical U/B controls packing both counter and Duress/Therapy are a bitch, though. Any discard spell is practically never going to "whiff" against this deck, and counters hit whatever you can push past the wall of disruption.

I'd have to say my most painful matchup was against UGw Thresh, where Bardo had drawn an opening hand into 2x Mage, 2x Land, FoW/w backup opener. I didn't even get a chance to do anything, his turn 2 was Mage for "Tendrils", and turn 3 was Mage for "Truth". Since I hadn't realized to put an alternate bounce spell in the Sideboard, it was the first time ever I've scooped to a non-combo deck before my 3rd turn clock.

[Nightmare]

I'd have to say my most painful matchup was against UGw Thresh, where Bardo had drawn an opening hand into 2x Mage, 2x Land, FoW/w backup opener. I didn't even get a chance to do anything, his turn 2 was Mage for "Tendrils", and turn 3 was Mage for "Truth". Since I hadn't realized to put an alternate bounce spell in the Sideboard, it was the first time ever I've scooped to a non-combo deck before my 3rd turn clock.


Round 5 – Osyp Lebedowitz (yeah, the pro) – IGGy Pop
Well, I’m intimidated. But I know this is an insanely good matchup for me, and I know both decks well. If I had to pick a Legacy matchup to play vs. a pro, this would be it.

Game 1: I open with turn 2 Mage on Tendrils. His turn he goes for main phase Intuition, I Daze. My turn I replay land, and Portent. He reads it, and asks “There’s no card better than this?!” No, Osyp. That card is nuts. He again goes for main phase Intuition, it resolves, and he gets 3x Brainstorm. On my turn I drop Mage on ETruth and Pithing Needle on Cabal Pit and he scoops.

Game 2: This game, I drop another Mage on Tendrils, followed by a Grunt that eats his threshold. He Intuitions for Cabal Ritual on my EOT, and tries to go off, but I counter the ritual leaving him only Lotus Petal for mana. With him at 8, I drop Mage on ETruth, and on his turn he Brainstorms, sits for at least 10 minutes looking at what cards to put back, and finally says “I can’t win,” and gives up.

Welcome to Iggy Pop vs. Thresh. I hope you enjoy your stay.

[AnwarA101]

Round 5 – Osyp Lebedowitz (yeah, the pro) – IGGy Pop
Well, I’m intimidated. But I know this is an insanely good matchup for me, and I know both decks well. If I had to pick a Legacy matchup to play vs. a pro, this would be it.

Game 1: I open with turn 2 Mage on Tendrils. His turn he goes for main phase Intuition, I Daze. My turn I replay land, and Portent. He reads it, and asks “There’s no card better than this?!” No, Osyp. That card is nuts. He again goes for main phase Intuition, it resolves, and he gets 3x Brainstorm. On my turn I drop Mage on ETruth and Pithing Needle on Cabal Pit and he scoops.

Game 2: This game, I drop another Mage on Tendrils, followed by a Grunt that eats his threshold. He Intuitions for Cabal Ritual on my EOT, and tries to go off, but I counter the ritual leaving him only Lotus Petal for mana. With him at 8, I drop Mage on ETruth, and on his turn he Brainstorms, sits for at least 10 minutes looking at what cards to put back, and finally says “I can’t win,” and gives up..

Did you actually admit that Portent was awesome in this report? I found that very interesting.

[Bryant Cook]

Adam was huffing grass that month. Portent sucks. But in all seriousness TES has a great Threshold match-up as well as it's Landstill match-up with Draw 4's.

[AnwarA101]

Adam was huffing grass that month. Portent sucks.

Didn't he come in 2nd at that tournament? Maybe I could get some of that grass.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm sure portent wasn't why he took second. It was the fact that he rode Jotun Grunt like his bitch to the top 8.

[Citrus-God]

I'm sure portent wasn't why he took second. It was the fact that he rode Jotun Grunt like his bitch to the top 8.

He sided out Portent like crazy in that tournament. Jotun Grunt is crazy cool shit though.

[blarknob]

Anyone looking to play storm combo in legacy should definately visit this thread....

So that they know who to ignore.

[DeathwingZERO]

Anyone looking to play storm combo in legacy should definately visit this thread....

So that they know who to ignore.

Strong words for someone with a 49 post count, and doubtful a majority of those are in the major combo threads.

To be fair, while I haven't taken any of these decks to tournaments larger than say 30 people, I'm far from a scrub when piloting them. I playtest with tournament players in my area who are very strong control players (LinkXwing, Volt, Bardo, and Angrytroll, to name a few), and I've gathered a large amount of insight from them. I'd hardly put myself at scrub status with IGGy, or TES for that matter. TES isn't my playstyle, but I can still pilot it.

@Nightmare: I thought the hilarious part was that the creator of IGGy Pop smashed me on the TMD board Bardo posted his report with saying something along the lines of: "The IGG player had nothing more than E.Truth vs Mage? How bad.", pretty much nailing the same idea I had all along, that the deck should have packed extra bounce spells in the SB for games 2 and 3. Unfortunately, I was packing Defense Grid and Brain Freezes for tech plays against cantrip-control decks and Solidarity matchups (the look on their face when you cast a Brain Freeze in response to their Meditates was worth it).

Had I been playing the deck with my original SB, it would have included 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Echoing Decay, and 1 other bounce spell (was testing Recoil at one point, which is almost never used) that could have been topdecked via Mystical Tutor, or Merchant Scroll (with the exception of Decay). I think that would have made for much more favorable games 2 and 3 than the auto-scoop on turn 3.

[FoolofaTook]

Typical U/B controls packing both counter and Duress/Therapy are a bitch, though. Any discard spell is practically never going to "whiff" against this deck, and counters hit whatever you can push past the wall of disruption.

Yeah this is the DOA matchup. Anybody running 8-10 counters and Duress or Cabal Therapy really destroys IggyPop.

We've tried going with up to 10 counters in the shell and Duress to match up better against that kind of control and while the play against Threshold improves significantly (due to the low number of actual threats in Threshold) the inconsistency of the deck in that configuration makes it a bad bet for the overall meta.

I can't help thinking there's a happy medium out there somewhere to be found but we haven't gotten there yet. Ill-Gotten Gains/Leyline of the Void is too strong against the overall meta not to have a great deck in it so we'll keep looking.

[DeathwingZERO]

Yeah this is the DOA matchup. Anybody running 8-10 counters and Duress or Cabal Therapy really destroys IggyPop.

We've tried going with up to 10 counters in the shell and Duress to match up better against that kind of control and while the play against Threshold improves significantly (due to the low number of actual threats in Threshold) the inconsistency of the deck in that configuration makes it a bad bet for the overall meta.

I can't help thinking there's a happy medium out there somewhere to be found but we haven't gotten there yet. Ill-Gotten Gains/Leyline of the Void is too strong against the overall meta not to have a great deck in it so we'll keep looking.

I agree. I am a huge fan of the deck packing the Leylines and Chant's in the maindeck, though I'm still very saddened by the fact that the deck still has trouble against control.

I'm much more in favor of a deck that packs this much consistency vs one like CRET or TES that packs explosive first and second turns in sacrificing versatility and durability.

[Bane of the Living]

Ichorid should be included in this little gig. I mean, it wins turns one and two.

[Iranon]

Interesting. Originally, I hadn't considered Ichorid in the same league where pure speed is concerned and thought it an attractive deck strictly because of the soft benefits (inbuilt disruption, strongly affected by only a rather narrow set of hate cards).
While the standards I went by (counting any attempt that didn't goldfish before turn 5 as a loss) are a little harsh on the deck and don't necessarily reflect typical play, it goldfished a little faster than imagined.



Following my current table of results showing also the goldfish statistics for One-Trick Belcher (Spoils of the Vault, 1 Taiga, no secondary win) and U/G Glimpse for comparison. While I consider neither to be competitive, I thought it interesting to have a direct comparison to decks that sacrifice resilence and consistency for an increased chance to kill turn 1, especially between regular and suicidal Belcher.

I only gave the 'kill' numbers for Ichorid because drawing the line for an overwhelming board position depends too much on personal judgment and there's no outright kill to differentiate a partial combo-out from.
Strictly speaking, the actual kill would occur half a turn later in the Glimpse deck, because Brain Freeze was the primary win condition.



Cumulative win percentages, turn 1 through 4

Belcher (kill)............10/34/78/93
Belcher (combo.)......41/72/85/93
TES (kill).................10/36/69/88
TES (combo)............21/61/83/88
Contract Tendrils.......41/68/83/90
IGGY Pop ..................9/44/88/96

Ichorid.......................4/29/65/82
Glimpse.....................36/54/68/76
1-Trick Belcher...........24/60/68/78

[Kronicler]

What is the glimpse list you are using?

Kronicler

[DeathwingZERO]

What is the glimpse list you are using?

Kronicler

I second that request. I haven't even heard of a Glimpse deck hitting any radars, and those numbers are very impressive.

Postalistplzkthxbai.

[Iranon]

Glimpse isn't on any radars because it doesn't deserve to be. I regret having even mentioned it: There are so many ways to build a Glimpse deck, and from my experience they all suck. I mostly included it out of cradle-ic interest since we're talking fast combo and the deck certainly has the ability to win quickly.

Consistency issues aside, which were indeed less prounounced than expected, 'traditional' Belcher and Glimpse don't score any bonus points for resilience. IGGy handles discard quite well and can fight most other things. SI can outlast any amount of 1-for-1 disruption. TES is generally quite slippery to tackle and even Burning Belcher has a strange sort of resilience as the tools that cripple it one game might be totally useless in another.
From decks that have few selling points beyond their goldfishing ability, I would requrie a sizable advantage there, and neither delivers.

***

Right, enough waffling. Here's the Glimpse list I used.

//Land
2 Tropical Island
3 Land Grant
1 Gaea's Cradle

//Other Mana
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

//Free Critters
4 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Phyrexian Marauder
4 Shifting Wall
2 Skyshroud Cutter

//Win
2 Brain Freeze

//Nuisance Engine
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Retract
4 Street Wraith
2 Shrieking Drake



Yes, WTF... but there's a reason. To increase consistency, I went with flexible tools rather than powerful ones and restricted myself to two colours. Blue has everything the deck needs, although no single card stands out (black and red have better tutors, fast mana and arguably better win conditions but lack cards to keep the combo going. White has the most powerful card for that in scapegoat, but doesn't provide anything else).


Despite being undemanding, Brain Freeze is a poor win condition. An alternative in the board is pretty much required.

Retract helps continuing the combo. While not reusable like Scapegoat, it's on colour and recycling moxen is surprisingly relevant.

Shrieking Drake converts excess blue mana into more cards, but usually it will just bounce a single robot. This has turned out a lot better in practice than it looks on paper; often it seems like this innocent little beastie is what holds the deck together.

Gaea's Cradle was a last-minute throw-in and might actually be suboptimal in this version because it reduces what little consistency we have. It just seemed a shame to forgo the ability to beat someone upside the head with 10/10 Marauders as an alternate win.

[Kronicler]

Wow, that list is Jank with a capital J, but those goldfish numbers are impressive to say the least. I have a few questions though. Do you really need Skyshround Cutter in the list? Are 2 more free creatures that necessary? Also, do you think there is any way to fit brainstorm into the list? It seems pretty good in this kind of deck. Finally, is 2 the right number for shrieking drake? If it is as pivotal as you say, perhaps there should be more in the deck.

Kronicler

[Jaynel]

Seems like Grapeshot could fill in for Brain Freeze. You'll certainly be playing at least 10 spells, and 2 Grapeshots off of Lotus Petals would do the trick.

[Nihil Credo]

I can't think of a single reason to play Grapeshot over Brain Freeze.

[Bryant Cook]

I can't think of a single reason to play Grapeshot over Brain Freeze.

I can. Gaea's Blessing. 0 Life points > 0 Cards and a turn.

[Nihil Credo]

Who plays Blessing?

Actually, I did come up with a good one: Jotun Grunt. I don't know if that is reason enough to stand the tough colour requirements and higher storm needs (Grapeshot needs 18-20 copies, more with Cutter in the mix; Brain Freeze is OK with 16 or so).

[Iranon]

@ Kronicler:

The Cutters are a free creature that imprint for green when needed, simple as that. Retract allows a fair bit of Mox bouncing, so this is quite relevant.

I've never been satisfied with Brainstorm here without a decent number of free shuffle effects (getting 2 permanent blue mana sources to brainstorm + tutor can't be relied on). Ponder could be promising though.

The drakes are useful because they provide stability as creature recyclers 5 and 6 and generally make bad hands more keepable. However, they cost mana for a relatively minor smoothing effect and this deck wants to spend mana where it counts, hence a full set creates more problems than it solves.


I would be surprised if this list was even close to ideal; however it seems to run rather smoothly (by Glimpse standards... still noticably behind any good combo deck).
A few other builds I had considered more promising disappointed in practice. Mostly because of colour instability, requiring too much mana to keep going or having randomness from their tutors becoming a larger factor than anticipated.

***

Yes, Brain Freeze has a few problems and it's certainly possible to play red win conditions without altering the mana base (1 Grapeshot used to be in the main, shunted to the side for now). Brain Freeze and Tendrils, unlike red win conditions, are also shut down indefinitely by True Believer.
However clunky, there's also the option of beating down with gigantic Phyrexian Marauders but a more elegant 'Plan B' certainly wouldn't come amiss.

[GreenOne]

I did some goldfish with the list of QSI. Here's the decklist:

// Lands
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [6E] Swamp (2)
4 [U] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [VI] Phyrexian Walker
4 [AL] Shield Sphere

// Spells
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [7E] Infernal Contract
4 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
3 [OV] Meditate

Here is what came form my results on 50 games:
- Can't kill in turn 4 or before: 20%
Of the remaining 80% games:
- Average cards in hand after possible mulligans: 6,75
- N° of games with a cabal therapy played before going off: 20%
- N° of games with at least a cabal therapy cast before playing Tendrils: 35%
- Average number of cabal therapies played in each game: 1,35
- Average turn with successful combo: 2,75
- Average number of black Draw4s played during the game: 2

Did anyone find different results?
Hope this is somewhat useful.