Yixlid Zone Change Questions

[Drathro]

I've got two rules questions that were raised by the Yixlid Jailer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/futuresight2/jailer) preview.

The first applies directly to the rules themselves,and is directed at our resident Judge(s):

From the article:
If a card moves from a hidden zone into a visible one, again we check for triggered abilities while the card is visible.
Where in the Comprehensive Rules is this? I've looked and searched, but if it is in there, it's pretty obscure. (I did find rules about movement from a public to a hidden zone, but not vice versa.)

Second question:

From the article:
Yixlid Jailer is in play, and you cycle Krosan Tusker from your hand. Does its "When you cycle Krosan Tusker" ability trigger?

No, it doesn't. Saying "When you cycle" is just like saying "When you discard this card to its cycling ability". The timing works just like Gaea's Blessing.



Comprehensive Rules (emphasis added) :
409.1a The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or activated ability. It moves from the zone it’s in to the stack and remains there until it’s countered or resolves. In the case of spells, the physical card goes onto the stack. In the case of activated abilities, the ability goes onto the stack without any card associated with it. If the ability is being played from a hidden zone, the card with that ability is revealed. ...

Judging by the decisions in the article, the Tusker is still considered hidden, but the Comp Rules say it is revealed during the playing of the ability, which (I think) means the card draw ability should be visible and trigger when the Tusker is discarded.

Where does my logic break down, or is the article mistaken?

[cdr]

Keep in mind that the article was written by a rules guru.

The rule you quoted does not contradict the article. The hand is (usually) a hidden zone.

The article is not mistaken. There are updates to the Comp Rules with every set; these things will likely be covered in the CR update (if it's even necessary to do so).

[Tacosnape]

While we're at it, how does this this affect Gamekeeper?

I'm guessing that its abilities are erased the moment it hits the Graveyard, so it won't trigger, but I'm not sure.

[cdr]

RTFA :)

"If a card moves into or out of play, we check for triggered abilities while it's in play."

[Drathro]

Keep in mind that the article was written by a rules guru.
I suppose this statement is relevant, in so far as "Rules Gurus" have advance rules information. Even so, it is remotely possible that a Rules Guru could make a mistake once in a while.


The article is not mistaken. There are updates to the Comp Rules with every set; these things will likely be covered in the CR update (if it's even necessary to do so).
So, you are pretty much saying that, if it happens that a preview article has rulings which are slightly incompatible with the current rules, the next release of the Comp Rules should correct any possible discrepancies. Ok, I can live with that.


The rule you quoted does not contradict the article. The hand is (usually) a hidden zone.
Well, your statement confirms where judges stand on the issue, which is the most important aspect to most people. Personally, I was hoping you could tell me why the rule doesn't contradict the article. You confirm the ruling in the article, but you don't explain the apparent logical disconnect. I don't mind that I'm wrong, but I'd like to know the reason why.

[cdr]

I wasn't sure I understood where you were confused, sorry.

Even if a card is revealed in a hidden zone, the zone is still hidden. In fact, even if every card in a hidden zone is somehow individually revealed, the zone is still considered hidden.

The Tusker is revealed, but the hand is still hidden. So the Tusker triggers in the graveyard.

[Drathro]

Thanks Akki. I hope the Rules Manager makes this stuff clearer in the updated Comp Rules.

In that case, I've got two simple, related situations, both with Yixlid Jailer in play, that I just would like confirmed:

1. If the top card of the library is revealed by Goblin Spy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Goblin_Spy), then a Gaea's Blessing (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Gaea[s_Blessing) that was milled would still not trigger, because the library is a hidden zone. Correct?

2. If the entire hand was revealed by Revelation (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Revelation), is the entire zone public, or is the hand a hidden zone with all of it's cards revealed?

Thanks for the help.

[Nightmare]

1. If a card has a triggered ability that triggers when it goes to the graveyard from any zone, it triggers in the graveyard - unless it came from a zone that is ALWAYS revealed, like the in play zone. So no, the Blessing would not trigger, even with Goblin Spy in play.

2. The hand would be considered a hidden zone with all cards revealed.

[cdr]

1) Right. The status of an object does not affect the status of a zone.

2) The best answer I have right now is that if an effect specifically reveals a zone, it is not hidden (Revelation, Telepathy, etc).

I'm waiting to hear back from a NetRep for 100% confirmation. The truth is that the term "hidden zone" has not been concretely defined anywhere, which will hopefully change with the FS rules update.

It would be nice if they could just say "abilities trigger in the desintation zone", because afaik every trigger besides "leaves play" does.

[cdr]

I confirmed with Lee Sharpe - if an effect specifically reveals a zone, the zone is no longer hidden.

It's not really relevant though - all zone change triggers other than ones coming from in play trigger in the destination zone regardless of whether the starting zone is hidden.

So the hand/library being hidden has nothing to do with why Jailer removes the abilities before they trigger, other than maybe why they made triggers work like that in the first place. Revelation won't stop Jailer.

[Drathro]

Thanks for all the help. Akki's response triggered one more simple question about zone changing... I promise no more questions from me in this thread after this one. :smile:


all zone change triggers other than ones coming from in play trigger in the destination zone regardless of whether the starting zone is hidden.

This gets to the heart of my question really, and explains why the ruling is the way it is. If I have the proper handle on it now:

- "When you cycle" is essentially "When you discard this card to its cycling ability".
- Discarding is a zone change, in this case, from the hand to the graveyard.
- Therefore, the "when you cycle" ability, which triggers on a zone change, actually triggers in the destination zone (again, normally the graveyard), since the source zone is not the in-play zone.
- If Yixlid Jailer is in play, then the "When you cycle" ability is lost in the graveyard, and therefore does not trigger.

So, here is my last question:

If my opponent has Leyline of the Void (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Leyline_of_the_Void) in play, and I cycle my Krosan Tusker, does the "When you cycle" ability trigger based on the revealed card's last known information, does it trigger from the removed-from-the-game zone, does it not trigger at all, or none of the above?

Muchas gracias in advance, and I'll shut up now.

[cdr]

If my opponent has Leyline of the Void (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Leyline_of_the_Void) in play, and I cycle my Krosan Tusker, does the "When you cycle" ability trigger based on the revealed card's last known information, does it trigger from the removed-from-the-game zone, does it not trigger at all, or none of the above?

Muchas gracias in advance, and I'll shut up now.

You cycled the card, so the "when you cycle" ability will trigger, even if the card doesn't end up in the graveyard. If it ends up removed from the game, it will trigger from that zone.

[Nightmare]

Here's a strange one:

Let's say you have Some card that gives all your cards in hand Cycling in play, and your opponent controls a Yixlid Jailer. If you Cycle Basking Rootwalla, when does the Walla enter the "Madness Zone?" Does the Madness ability trigger with Cycling (ie, from the yard), or is it handled differently? In other words, does the Jailer shut off Madness?

[cdr]

Your question ought to be answered by reading Madness:

502.24a Madness is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with madness is in a player's hand. The second is a triggered ability that functions when the first ability is applied. "Madness [cost]" means "If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but may remove it from the game instead of putting it into his or her graveyard" and "When this card is removed from the game this way, its owner may play it by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If that player doesn't, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard."

The first part of Madness is a static ability with a replacement effect - it's more similar to Leyline of the Void than Krosan Tusker. It allows you to remove it from the game instead of putting it in the graveyard, and if you do, you can play it right then.

[Nightmare]

Word. Thanks Chuck.

[Tacosnape]

God I need Tylenol now.