[DTB] Vial Goblins [Archive] - Page 10

Shriekmaw

05-06-2009, 03:51 PM

@ Nick I know you like Tin Street, I do to I ran him I Survival til Harmonic Sliver came out. Do you ever encounter situations where Tin Street doesn't work because Warchief is in play so you can't pay the G? Just wondering how does he work with Vial? It seems that Tinkerer would be better in some cases... Also have you ever played Blood Moon in the board? Your thoughts on it?

Very seldom I encounter the problem with tin street when a warchief is in play. Plus, its only a 1 of so the problem has never really came up. A lot of times hooligan is just a 2/1 beater which is fine, but his ability has single handly won games/matches.

If you play green, don't play tinkerer its met for a mono-red build that doesn't have any real good options to take care of artifacts. Also, blood moon is meant if you are running a mono-red build of goblins. I can discuss this with you if you want, b/c some of the card choices are complicated to explain over the forms like this.

I would simply retool your goblin deck true story to take a shape similar to mines and go from there.

FoulQ

05-06-2009, 04:10 PM

Don´t forget that Relic doesen't simply just huts down Goyf and Ichorid and Loam, but is great against Toombstalker, Eternal Dragon, Eternal Witness, Survival of the Fitest, reanimates, Crucible of Worlds, and so on. Also, it cantrips. Seriously, this and Stingscourer were what made the MonoR version viable again, so don't underestimate it.

I know, but what to take out of my sideboard? (#2250)

I personally find Relic not worth boarding in anymore against Thresh since nimble mongoose is basically gone. Really, is it worth it for just tarmogoyf when I could board in a fourth weirding or something like that, or explosives to kill his confidants and maybe counterbalances (as well as plagues if I chose otherwise). I know relic is very good, I'm just having troubles fitting it in my sideboard right now. Maybe I'll cut wort and something and try to get those tins maindeck.

Against Team America or Tombstone or whatever runs Tombstalker: I'm not boarding anything in in this matchup, but I feel this is a good matchup, generally. Any 8threat.dec that isn't NLU I'm not worried about.

Against Landstill (decks that plays eternal dragon, crucible): I'm already boarding in krosan grip for humility/moat/crucible. Boarding in relics for something like eternal dragon seems trivial and killing my ringleaders.

Survival: Already bringing in potentially grips for survivals (and/or explosives, depending). That's plenty of nongoblins and I'd rather shut down the card than the engine, because he can still take advantage of survival without the engine. Granted this deck is nonexistent in my meta, I'll probably lose to it because I have never played against it in a tournament.

Reanimator/Ichorid/Loam: True. So unless these decks ichorid and loam are running rampant, I don't see why you would run gy hate. Of course, many winning decks run it and many of you run it, so I'm open to understanding what makes relic so popular.

I agree with nickrit about tinkerer/tin street. It has been proven time and time again that tin street > tinkerer, and that anybody who has played with tin street extensively knows the warchief thing is irrelevant.

ScatmanX

05-06-2009, 04:42 PM

That's what I do! ;p

Malchar

05-06-2009, 05:02 PM

Actually, I only tacked on "Relic of Progenitus" at the last minute before submitting the post. I prefer Leyline of the Void because it's free and comes out at the perfect time to put the opponent off-balance. I do not think that Goblins should be sideboarding due to Tarmogoyf. I just ended up putting it on because it is a reasonable alternative depending on the meta, and because I had just read a post about how fun Goblin Sharpshooter + Relic of Progenitus can be. As for the mirror-match, I actually like to use Goblin Sharpshooter or Goblin King, either of which might end up in the maindeck as well.

Might as well mix up the conversation a little bit: What is the opinion on Rancor or Berserk (for Goblin Piledriver)?

PeAcH

05-06-2009, 06:40 PM

I also agree on the point that RG version feels superior in a way. My approach is the following:

Maindeck:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
3 Taiga

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Æther Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus

Sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tranquil Domain
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis

It plays Mono Red main with 3 maindeck relics (which are a HOUSE in a meta full of Threshold, Loam, and Tarmadecks in general) and offers the green splash for the sideboard. The manabase support disruption lands and you are not forced to fetch for taiga first game as you don´t maindeck any green cards.

Maindeck Relics solve the issue of Tharmagoyf in an awesome way as they not only stop the first one in the short term, but possibly also the following ones later on (which WW does not do). Apart from wrecking Ichorid game one in an unexpected way :D Graveyard using decks are at the top tables more and more everyday.

Green is basically for one of the most versatile sideboard cards right now: Krosan Grip. The lonely Tranquil Domain is a tech against Enchantress, double plague and W or U Propaganda decks. Additionally, 8 slots to fight combo seem enough and might ease the things in case of having to mulligan aggressively for lackey/vial or disruption pieces (depending if you are on the play or not). Playing just 4 slots against combo don´t seem enough. Also, maindecking relics free some valuable space in the side.
Also, as has been mentioned in this thread before, Chalice helps against Burn (if it is present in your meta).

I am thinking of maindecking a Tin Streen (for an Incinerator maybe?).

What do you think?

FoulQ

05-06-2009, 07:10 PM

@ Malchar: Both rancor and berserk have been explored in this thread and the old thread, both are outdated/failed.

@ Peach: You are only running 14 red sources. Generally speaking it is agreed upon that 15 is the minimum. This means either cutting a port/waste or upping the land count to 23. Either way I am a strong supporter of running 8 fetches because it seems stifle is on a general decline. However, I do like your list quite a bit, and if I was playing RG, that is probably very close to what I would play.

However, I really don't agree with everyone saying relic is a house against tarmogoyf. It hurts him some, but it will take ~2 cards to kill goyf (because you can say the cantrip makes it not really two cards). And honestly every time I activate the relic's "ultimate power," tarmogoyf is back to a 2/3 and then 3/4 and then 4/5 again in like 2 or 3 turns. Relic DEFINITELY does not stop future goyfs. Hell, without support, it barely stops current goyfs.

To be a nongoblin in the deck pre or post requires a lot of things for me. Relic reminds me of extirpate. It's not really helping the game state. Ok, it makes tarmogoyf a 0/1 and now you can swing for 6 (or 15 or something with piledriver, but then driver could have traded with goyf anyway). The opponent shrugs his shoulders, takes 6 damage, then it's his turn. Then ponders, cracks his fetch, then StPs your warchief and is back on track with his engine.

And I played monored goblins since relic came out, just recently switching back to rbg. I even designed a deck disaster when it first came out known as "goyfless" that was basically zoo with no goyfs and relics instead. It was bad. I have tested extensively the interaction between relic and goyf. It's an ok answer to him, but not for goblins.

I will give relic approval in helping loam and ichorid astronomically, but boarding it against minor synergies just kills yourself. Against tarmogoyf? No way is relic an answer. WW is the only reliable answer and will probably be the only reliable answer until they print more black goblins, which could be never.

As mentioned though, I believe the biggest advantage of maindeck relic is freeing up sideboard space, and it still can be an average, very conditional answer to tarmogoyf.

And I highly recommend a tin street hooligan for an incinerator, but that's just me.

dr4g0n

05-06-2009, 08:38 PM

And I highly recommend a tin street hooligan for an incinerator, but that's just me.

I'm not entirely sure if it works this way, but doesn't the prescence of Warcheif kinda neuter tin street hooligan, since you can't pay G to cast it?

Malchar

05-06-2009, 08:57 PM

I'm not entirely sure if it works this way, but doesn't the prescence of Warcheif kinda neuter tin street hooligan, since you can't pay G to cast it?

Theoretically, they do not work well together. However, Goblin Warchief rarely lives long, and I would much rather have a surviving Goblin Warchief than a resolved Tin Street Hooligan. Basically, if Goblin Warchief is in play, the opponent has better things to worry about than a Tin Street Hooligan. That said, playing 1x Tin Street Hooligan and 1x Goblin Tinkerer is not out of the question.

PeAcH

05-07-2009, 01:39 PM

@FoulQ

Regarding mana sources. In the beginning, I started playing with 23 producers (15+8colorless) and kept playing that for a long time. My idea is that in order to maximize the land disruption effect you need to have one in your opening hand, so you better play 4 waste, 4 port. In order to avoid mana flood a little bit and free 1 maindeck space I decided to cut 1 land and never looked back. 14+8 has been working fine for me so far for this kind of build. Playin 3 colors I would suggest:

3 Taiga
3 Badlands
7 fetch
4 waste
5 mountain

This way you play 10 off color producers and 18 red mana producing lands which seems more than enough.

As for relic, as I had already commented, it helps against two of the worst pairings of the deck from my point of view: Canadian and Loam. Relic helps you against the core of the deck. Tarmagoyf is just collateral damage here.

If you play it at the beginning of the game, you just have to keep it on the table. I don´t need to kill tarmagoyf with another cards, it´s not a 2 x 1. Tarma will be there and eventually block something or just die. You say that it does not stop further goys, well, it depends on how you play it and who you play against. If you take the aggressive role, your opponent will try to stop you or die, so I´m not sure he will have a lot of resources available to come back from a relic final effect.

Overall, the relic approach eases keeping the core of the deck stable. The deck tries to do what it does best, and relics are there just for support. You might not even need them. But they can definitely help you if you get yourself into trouble.

I really like Tin main too, but Incinerator seems the only option to move out.

Thank you for your comments FoulQ, I really appreciate them.

FoulQ

05-07-2009, 04:24 PM

I agree that relic definitely helps against loam and obviously versus ichorid. But for those two decks alone, I think I'm going to test extirpate, even though I really hate that card...what does everyone think about extirpate to beat loam and ichorid for goblins? I know 1 extirpate isn't going to really stop ichorid which means I probably have to play 4 sideboard if I do, but I might be able to get away with only 3 relics. We'll see. I'm probably going to have to drop explosives for them probably, which is depressing because I just bought 2 of them not very long ago. But loam is definitely present.

true story

05-07-2009, 07:43 PM

Shriekmaw

05-08-2009, 03:23 PM

Extirpate sucks in 99% of the decks in the world. True story

I remember having a conversion with extirpate verus crypt. Now it would be extirpate verus relic. The only decks were extirpate really shines, are in black based disruption decks because of the discard/land destruction that you play. By putting cards in the graveyard in this fashion is where extirpate is better than relic or crypt.

I really believe if your not play a deadguy variant of some sort, then I would run either crypt or relic as it is 100% better in most scenerios. Lets take the aggro loam/ichorid matchup into consideration. If you have a single relic/crypt, you can lock them out long enough to win in a lot of instances rather than having just 1 extirpate. Extirpate may be good in removing a particular card, but cyrpt/relic removes the entire graveyard which is more devasting against these decks.

In goblins, Extirpate should not even be considered b/c goes against the fundamentals of the decks strategy. I've tried a lot of different color combinations and builds of goblins to know what works and what doesn't. Crypt and Relic are just better on the job you need them to do.

Spur Grappler

05-08-2009, 08:15 PM

Extirpate sucks in 99% of the decks in the world. True story

This seems a little exaggerated. Extirpate is a great card sometimes.
Extirpating the Bridge against Ichorid gives you a lot of time too. Furthermore, Extirpate has other uses. Many people forget for example that you can let your opponent shuffle his library which can be great against Combo or Landstill after an Enligthened or Mystical Tutor.

Against Loam, Extirpate kills the Loam forever and takes away an important engine of the deck. He can recover from a relic, but not from an Extirpate in this case

kicks_422

05-08-2009, 08:25 PM

You already have a ton of ways to get rid of Bridges against Ichorid. And Loam runs Burning Wish.

rockout

05-08-2009, 09:19 PM

Ectoplasm

05-08-2009, 09:46 PM

Pating thickets/caves seems pimp

FoulQ

05-09-2009, 12:21 AM

Extirpate = just never works for me. I don't want to resort to something so easily stopped by chalice at 1 from loam, so I guess I'm now turning towards Leyline of the Void or Crypt..I think the wish thing isn't really that important, that will be slowing them down and any wish not for something as devastating as well...you got the picture, is a good wish for me. The main thing is what kicks said, bridge should not be that much of a concern, just the general graveyard strategy. Which is making me think leyline of the void if my strategy is to specifically beat loam and ichorid. Relic is always available though.

true story

05-10-2009, 02:07 PM

I remember having a conversion with extirpate verus crypt. Now it would be extirpate verus relic. The only decks were extirpate really shines, are in black based disruption decks because of the discard/land destruction that you play. By putting cards in the graveyard in this fashion is where extirpate is better than relic or crypt.

I really believe if your not play a deadguy variant of some sort, then I would run either crypt or relic as it is 100% better in most scenerios. Lets take the aggro loam/ichorid matchup into consideration. If you have a single relic/crypt, you can lock them out long enough to win in a lot of instances rather than having just 1 extirpate. Extirpate may be good in removing a particular card, but cyrpt/relic removes the entire graveyard which is more devasting against these decks.

In goblins, Extirpate should not even be considered b/c goes against the fundamentals of the decks strategy. I've tried a lot of different color combinations and builds of goblins to know what works and what doesn't. Crypt and Relic are just better on the job you need them to do.

Once again your 100% right. The only time I was moderately successful with Extirpate was in Suicide Black. Even then sometimes it just wasn't worth having in the deck. Either it was the bomb or it completely sucked ass.

true story

05-10-2009, 02:17 PM

This seems a little exaggerated. Extirpate is a great card sometimes.
Extirpating the Bridge against Ichorid gives you a lot of time too. Furthermore, Extirpate has other uses. Many people forget for example that you can let your opponent shuffle his library which can be great against Combo or Landstill after an Enligthened or Mystical Tutor.

Against Loam, Extirpate kills the Loam forever and takes away an important engine of the deck. He can recover from a relic, but not from an Extirpate in this case

Using Crypt against their yard buys time as well, and Crypt is better overall against other decks, the phrase sub-optimal comes to mind. I played Extirpate for a year in Suicide and realized it wasn't that good, and Suicide is the one deck where this card should shine most and it didn't. It was really good sometimes and really really bad other times. That was in Suicide where you're making them dump their hand blowing up land and killing shit so you have plenty of targets for Extirpate. In Goblins it would suck. True story. Don't believe me? Try it for six months in the board and get back to me.

Nessaja

05-10-2009, 05:27 PM

As it's mostly discussion now I feel like it's time for a list again. I'm going to play a tournament next week where I want to be playing gobbos as the expected meta is thresh, thresh and more thresh I think it's a decent call. Though there will be combo, merfolk, landstill and dreadstill as well. I can't take credit for the idea behind the list (that would be Eldariel) but I've been testing it for about 3 months now, here's the list:

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerators
4 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief

15 Mountain
3 Mutavault
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Pyrokenises
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Boartusk Liege

As can be seen I'm playing a grand total of 25 lands. The mutavaults are a great addition to the deck as they help me combat mass removal make me curve out more easily and give me an extra goblin at the same time which is good for many occasions. Rishadan Ports are a 3-off because I don't feel they're getting much better in multiples and only so many non-basics (non red producing) should be played.

Out of the goblins played, most people would probably disagree with 4 Stingscourger but test it. It's probably my favorite card in the deck. It helps you deal with Dreadnought's Tombstalkers and Tarmogoyf's as well as clearing blockers turn 2 for a lackey to connect. It also screws combat math and is insane with a warchief. The incinerators have been great so far, though they're more a mid-lategame card. Playing them as a 4-off is (I believe) essential if you're going for mono red, uncounterable removal against factories and mutavaults functioning under a standstill is definitly worth a 4 off in the current meta.

The rest of the maindeck is standard. As for the sideboard, I'm not sure if Relic is better then Crypt. It is against Loam but not neccesarily against Dredge. I'm uncertain here. The Boartusk Liege proved to be the best monored answer to Engineered Plague by far, I really do not understand why people attempt to use Goblin Kings and Goons when the Liege just does it that much better.

As for the combo matchup, Pyrokenises can be a nice surprise but don't expect to win the match, I don't think you should be playing Goblins in a meta were combo is rampant but at the same time I don't think combo is the biggest concern at the moment either.

P-AiR

05-10-2009, 05:42 PM

Nessaja

05-10-2009, 05:50 PM

How has 4x Stingscourger been for you?

Because with 4x wouldn't it be redundant when

1) opponent has no creatures
2) you top deck a stingscourge when it's down to the wire when no other creatures are in play.

Or is it not a dead card since you can cast it regardless whether your opponent has a creature or not?

The same can be said for Swords to Plowshares and Warren's Weirding, but it would be a fair comment to say that the last one perhaps shouldn't be a 4 off. In topdeck mode, stinger is still a 2/2, much like Mutavault it serves a dual function. Generally though you're in a pretty decent position if your opponent doesn't have anything on the table.

Still though, other then combo decks, creatures become relevant at one point, having 4 stingers allows you to use them freely and often. There are so many viable targets for the stinger in Legacy it's rediculous.

P-AiR

05-10-2009, 06:01 PM

I understand what you're getting at but at the same time Swords and Weirding can be used on your own creatures which provides versatility during a game that's down to the wire.

I'll have to playtest it quite a bit!

How are your mutavaults working for you?

Eldariel

05-10-2009, 07:12 PM

I'm just gonna point out that I've won, or gained a decisive edge, in many games after trading everything and beating with that lone Sting that survived the fallout. Of course you don't want to pay the Echo, but the option is there when you don't have any creatures left due to counters and sweepers/trades.

For what it's worth, it's much better than StP (2/2 over some life) or Weirdings (2/2 over 1/1, and one you can cast without creatures in play) when you're out of gas. Most importantly, unlike either of the others, it can do both things, which can be very relevant when stalling to draw into bombs vs. Goyfs/Stalkers/whatever.

There are many things going against Stingscourgers over other removal options, but usability when opponent doesn't have creatures isn't one of them.

Avatara

05-10-2009, 08:02 PM

Talking about bombs... in a build with 4 Stingscourgers and 25 land: run 4 x Siege-Gang Commander!

(-1 Gempalm Incinerator)

ScatmanX

05-10-2009, 08:11 PM

Loved the deck. Stingscourer rox. I have 3 in my monored and ain't removing them.

Nessaja/Eldariel:
Have you guys ever missed the Relic or the Fanatics main?
Seems your game agains't Dreadge really sux...

How doesPyroknesis work in the combo matchup, once it only deals damage on creatures? (I see it woorking agains't elfball (TEES))

I coulden't agree more on the Liege.
final question: Isn't 4 Tinkerer's a little overkill? I'd personally run 2, and put Needles or REB's in there...

Nessaja

05-10-2009, 08:23 PM

As for 4 Siege Gang.. I just don't have a spot for them really. I would, otherwise, I'll admit that it's extremely tempting to remove either 1 stinger or a Gempalm for a siege gang.. But I'm quite fine with 3 right now.

Relics I've used main for a long time. I would include them as they do improve some matchups drastically, but it can also cost you games. You can generally win against Goyfs and Stalkers, Loam and Dredge are annoying... they've gone in and out of the board really.

I've never missed Fanatics one bit, idk about Eldariel.

As for Pyro.. just elves and Empty the Warren's, marginal not worth mentioning. Actually probably quite decent against Ichorid (byeye moeba's) but no good against TES or ANT or anything. Should I start considering Pyrostatic Pillar just for combo =/? Not sure how good that would even work.

Good point on the Tinkerers, it's usually a direct swap with Stingscourgers against creatureless decks or even affinity (fun times)... My sideboards have always been weak because I have a hard time identifying what my hard matchups are (MWS only brings you so far). Specifically what do we need REB's for? What weak matchup would it improve. Same for Needle.

Eldariel

05-10-2009, 08:37 PM

Nessaja/Eldariel:
Have you guys ever missed the Relic or the Fanatics main?
Seems your game agains't Dreadge really sux...

I never really played Relics main. 25 lands is enough strain on the Ringleaders without adding Relics (the only thing I could think of is straight-up trading two lands for two Relics, and I like my lands). And with regards to the two cards, sure, I'd occasionally like Relics, but frankly, with so many other huge creatures besides Goyf getting played in the format and with most Goyf-decks packing Countertop to really screw with Relic, I just find it too situational to main outside very specific metas. The cycling option presents an investment you can't often afford early on due to needing to cast threats or let opponent establish control.

And with Fanatics, yes, I miss them constantly. But here's the thing: I miss them against fringe decks. Dredge is probably the biggest deck they're good against, but I basically never want them against modern blue decks. Gone are the days when a Fanatic could get in there for 5 before being dealt with. When I'm playing against Elves, I want them. When I'm playing the mirror, I want them. Hell, I occasionally want them against ANT to give me a slightly higher chance to steal the game when they screw up and go to 1 with Vial in play. But I don't want them against the dominant decks in the format. Losing Fanatic hurts, but it's presently the weakest slot in the deck.

Piledriver is necessary simply to fight in the big creature meta; it can easily force blocks and most decks just can't chump it. Oh, and pro-blue is getting pretty relevant with Trygon Predators, Trinket Mages & Sowers seeing more and more play. Most importantly, Piledriver makes the clock fast. Nowadays it can be a pain to resolve a large mass in many match-ups; Pile makes that duo or trio go all the way really fast. Fanatic is mostly impotent there.

Short version: Both cards could be good, but losing them hurts less than losing anything else in my experience, and the replacing cards feel superior. And you can still beat Dredge, although G1 you need to get lucky (Gempalm your own guys or goldfish faster than them or some such); you've got those Relics post-board. It's a worse match, sure, but it's not popular enough in my experience to bend over backwards for.

ScatmanX

05-10-2009, 09:05 PM

Few more questions:
How often more are you paired up agains't Plague than Combo? Because seems you just roll over and die to combo.
The other thing is the mirror match. with no Fanatics/Sharpshooters, it seems rather weak. But I guess 4xStings and 4xIncinerators dodge that.

If I had Mutavaults, I'd test your list, only:
MD:
-1 Stingscourer/Incinerator/Piledriver/Ringleader
+1 Sharpshooter
and the SB:
SB
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Pyrokenises
3 Tormord's Crypt
2 Boartusk Liege
4 Challice of theVoid
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

Reasoning:
Never really needed more than 1 Tinker on the board.
3 Knesis seems more than fine to me
Crypt's over relics because I've lost, more than once to dreadge because I was on the draw, and my Relic weren't Crypt.
4 CotV+2 Pillar to have a shot agains't combo
2 Liege seems enough, but I really would like to have 3 agains't plague tough.

Avatara

05-10-2009, 09:14 PM

turn 1: Mountain -> Goblin Lackey
turn 2: land -> Stingscourger -> Siege-Gang Commander

Is it possible to sacrifice the Stingscourger on turn 3 for 2 damage using the Siege-Gang Commander or do I have to put it in the graveyard if I don't pay the echo?.

ScatmanX

05-10-2009, 09:21 PM

You can sacrifice him to Siege-Gang-Commander at your upkeep while the echo is on the stack.

FoulQ

05-10-2009, 10:52 PM

@ Eldariel:

I've been wanting to replace fanatic now forever, but I simply cannot find a decent goblin replacement. It seems he has been the weakest spot in the deck since legacy began, and yet he continues to be in most of the winning lists. Right now I think there is no good all-around card to replace him without disrupting the curve too much.

It's funny you should mention piledriver as the hot card in goblins right now. I have been having extreme difficulties with the card, I cut one, and I feel my deck has become much better. Rarely do I really need more than one and I find them to be just miserable by themselves, which these modern blue decks are capable of achieving no problem. However, your point about protection from blue all the sudden being relevant I think is a very important note. This I do miss.

To all others, I'm glad we all agree on stingscourger. Many people in my meta still do not know what it is, haha. I do somewhat miss him, but I have cut him in favor of weirdings.

true story

05-11-2009, 10:33 AM

It's funny you should mention piledriver as the hot card in goblins right now. I have been having extreme difficulties with the card, I cut one, and I feel my deck has become much better. Rarely do I really need more than one and I find them to be just miserable by themselves, which these modern blue decks are capable of achieving no problem. However, your point about protection from blue all the sudden being relevant I think is a very important note. This I do miss.

Piledriver is really good against Merfolk and almost single handedly wins that matchup.

Shriekmaw

05-11-2009, 11:15 AM

Piledriver is really good against Merfolk and almost single handedly wins that matchup.

Piledriver is the weakest goblin in my deck which is why I cut him down to 3 a long time ago. It's only good when you have multiple goblins in play. I also had to find room for stingscourgers as they are amazing.

My non-four of's are: 3 piledriver, 2 seige-gang, 2 stingscourger, 1 tin street hooligan, and 1 sharpshooter.

Ectoplasm

05-12-2009, 06:41 PM

I truly cannot understand how so many people dare call mogg fanatic subpar since it's easily one of the best creatures ever printed, especially in goblins.

rockSTAR

05-12-2009, 06:46 PM

I truly cannot understand how so many people dare call mogg fanatic subpar since it's easily one of the best creatures ever printed, especially in goblins.

rofl

the creature powerlevel is sky high compared to tempest. fanatic can't even rudimentary compete with doods like tarmogoyf, dark confidant etc.

Ectoplasm

05-12-2009, 07:27 PM

rofl

the creature powerlevel is sky high compared to tempest. fanatic can't even rudimentary compete with doods like tarmogoyf, dark confidant etc.

rofl

mogg fanatic is in 10th edition as well as a €3 uncommon and it kills dark confidant :cool:

rockSTAR

05-12-2009, 07:32 PM

rofl

mogg fanatic is in 10th edition as well as a €3 uncommon and it kills dark confidant :cool:

this argument stinks and you knw that. :wink:

FoulQ

05-12-2009, 07:53 PM

Since you guys are on the topic, I have a couple questions about fanatic.

Is it worth it to keep fanatics in g2 against aggroloam to kill confidants?

More of a rules question, but, when is the appropriate time to kill an arcbound ravager with a mogg fanatic / gempalm incinerator?

Avatara

05-12-2009, 09:27 PM

The thing with Mogg Fanatic is... I want my first drop to be either Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey (except vs Ichorid of course). After that first turn the Mogg Fanatic might as well be a Stingscourger, Warren Weirding or a Gempalm Incinerator. Having that required second land should never be a problem (23-25 lands in the deck) and you shouldn't play with a 1(-2) land hand anyways.

gamegeek2

05-12-2009, 10:31 PM

I truly cannot understand how so many people dare call mogg fanatic subpar since it's easily one of the best creatures ever printed, especially in goblins.

Top 10 creatures ever printed, in my opinion.

1. Tarmogoyf
2. Dark Confidant
3. Goblin Lackey
4. Arcbound Ravager
5. Psychatog
6. Birds of Paradise
7. Darksteel Colossus
8. Protean Hulk
9. Narcomoeba
10. Wild Nacatl

leander?

05-13-2009, 08:46 AM

5. Psychatog
:laugh:
But that's not a discussion for this topic.

The thing with Mogg Fanatic is... I want my first drop to be either Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey.
Playing 4 Lackey and 4 Vial doesn't guarantee you to have one of them in your opening hand. I have no eperience with the deck and thus can't say anything about the quality of Fanatic itself, but you can't simply assume that 8 1drops is enough to have one in your opening 7. So saying you want Lackey/Vial over Fanatic is not really relevant always.

eq.firemind

05-13-2009, 09:08 AM

Hey, people, there are some Dredge in my meta, so I can't think of any good replacement for Fanatics 'cause the small dude just owns Dredge (backed with Wort he OWNS them great).
I've tried to beat Dredge with different Gobboz lists without Fan and it became sooo difficult that I'm very confused now: I wantto replace him, I don't want to loose to Dredge and I don't want to run to much hate in my SB (ANTs, CB-tops, Burn, Survivals, Dredge, Affinity, Aggro Loam - pairings could be very random :smile:)

I'm new to Gobboz, so could you please advise a general decklist(s) for developed meta?

Thanks in advance!

GreenOne

05-13-2009, 09:21 AM

(ANTs, CB-tops, Burn, Survivals, Dredge, Affinity, Aggro Loam - pairings could be very random :smile:)
Did you consider MDing Relic of Progenitus? Between goyfs, loam, ichorid and survival seems like it would be great in your meta.

Playing 4 Lackey and 4 Vial doesn't guaranty you to have one of them in your opening hand. I have no eperience with the deck and thus can't say anything about the quality of Fanatic itself, but you can't simply assume that 8 1drops is enough to have one in your opening 7. So saying you want Lackey/Vial over Fanatic is not really relevant always.
Just to add some data. The probability of having at least 1 between vial or lackey is 65% on the play and 71% on the draw (with 8th card).

Avatara

05-13-2009, 10:26 AM

Playing 4 Lackey and 4 Vial doesn't guaranty you to have one of them in your opening hand. I have no eperience with the deck and thus can't say anything about the quality of Fanatic itself, but you can't simply assume that 8 1drops is enough to have one in your opening 7. So saying you want Lackey/Vial over Fanatic is not really relevant always.
Taking aggressive mulligans is vital for Goblins. If you can't pressure your enemy starting at turn one you are in for a hard match.

Ectoplasm

05-13-2009, 01:31 PM

Taking aggressive mulligans is vital for Goblins. If you can't pressure your enemy starting at turn one you are in for a hard match.

That's simply not true. Sure, pressure is good but you can keep hands that are heavy on disruption (ports, wastelands, removal) and have a wonderful midgame with ringleaders and matrons.

I'd call myself an experienced goblins player and of course I'll admit the fast and sick hands are the best (something like lackey, mogg fanatic/weirding, warchief/ringleader/SGC and a couple land) but usually my criteria are: any relevant plays like warchief into piledriver? A nice curve (something to do for some turns)? And a way to refill is always nice. A hand like vial, warchief, matron might look like shit but if it contains 2 wastelands and 2 coloured lands it can seriously demolish your opponent, without actually bashing with any men for a few turns.

Avatara

05-13-2009, 02:46 PM

That's simply not true. Sure, pressure is good but you can keep hands that are heavy on disruption (ports, wastelands, removal) and have a wonderful midgame with ringleaders and matrons.

I'd call myself an experienced goblins player and of course I'll admit the fast and sick hands are the best (something like lackey, mogg fanatic/weirding, warchief/ringleader/SGC and a couple land) but usually my criteria are: any relevant plays like warchief into piledriver? A nice curve (something to do for some turns)? And a way to refill is always nice. A hand like vial, warchief, matron might look like shit but if it contains 2 wastelands and 2 coloured lands it can seriously demolish your opponent, without actually bashing with any men for a few turns.

We agree :wink: .

Vial + (2)Wasteland = pressure. Remove Vial from that hand and it's unlikely that you will play with that hand. As I said... you want either Lackey or Vial in your opening hand (+enough lands and threats to drop). If you let your opponent goldfish the first turns it's very likely that you wont even see the wonderful mid game.

FoulQ

05-13-2009, 04:26 PM

What if you remove wastelands from the hand? I just might still keep a hand of vial + warchief + matron + 4 colored lands against some decks.

ScatmanX

05-13-2009, 04:47 PM

Maybe thats also right. Vial owns agains't so many decks, that a hand with 1 is keepable in lots of ocasions...

Ectoplasm

05-13-2009, 04:52 PM

Even if you remove the wastelands it's a solid hand, since matron and warchief pretty much assure you're going to be in a good position when they both resolve and heaven knows what the top of your deck might bring.
Thing I'm trying to say is, it's not going to give you a flying start filled with balls to the wall pressure but a VERY solid buildup, granted you're not playing against combo and survive to turn 3.
Edit: People seem to forget that goblins is one of the strongest midgame decks in Legacy still, just imagine what would happen when you drop a warchief, vial the matron next turn, find a ringleader and resolve it with an active warchief/vial in play. Hordes of angry men at your disposal.

revenge_inc

05-13-2009, 10:52 PM

Alright people, please enlighten me:
Why do you find Stingscourger and Warren Weirding to be so good?

Eldariel

05-13-2009, 11:17 PM

Alright people, please enlighten me:
Why do you find Stingscourger and Warren Weirding to be so good?

Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Dreadnought/whatever the hell that is fcking huge kills you before you can get your card advantage engines online, and acts as a Wall of the Seinä (...a "Wall of the Wall"? - Nihil, amused) against all your crap if you're attacking while at it. Getting rid of those things before they kill you, and getting through for damage are both quite in synch with the deck's goals, and with how many Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers and other shitpiles float around, having cheap "get rid of X regardless of how big it is"-effects handy is necessary. Stingscourger has the additional benefit of blocking next turn, making it a great card to buy time for your Big Guns with. Oh, and both are Goblins, which is obviously a huge boon in a deck called "Goblins".

P-AiR

05-13-2009, 11:22 PM

Eldariel

05-13-2009, 11:31 PM

Hey well how about Mutavault?

Is there a real big reason to run those instead of mishra's factory besides the changeling ability?

Unlike the Merfolk I don't find goblins to gain too much of an advantage from the mutavaults.

Not being an artifact is a rather relevant benefit when many people bring arti removal as they can't win vs. active Vial, and thus might have dead cards post-board when you don't have the Vial. More importantly, it goes great with Piledriver, Siege-Gang (especially handy vs. Moat-type effects when you just need a guy or few more to sacrifice FTW but have trouble resolving spells anymore), Gempalm and has some benefits being run alongside Warchief.

Certainly not as big as being a Merfolk - Goblins' tribal effects mostly deal with the library. Still, it's a big enough benefit to outweigh the self-buff Factory offers (which would rarely be useful due to your mana expediture and rarely trying to kill big guys by blocking them) alongside being a non-artifact.

P-AiR

05-13-2009, 11:34 PM

Thanks for the insightful reply.

I was wondering in your opinion how much would they roughly cost after it rotates out of standard?

I highly doubt it would constantly cost around 20 something even when it's only playable in extended/legacy.

I want to figure out if I should find a set now or would it be more worthit to wait a couple months to buy it when it's rotated out of standard.

GreenOne

05-14-2009, 04:48 AM

I want to figure out if I should find a set now or would it be more worthit to wait a couple months to buy it when it's rotated out of standard.
My rule of thumb is "Always wait".

Certainly not as big as being a Merfolk - Goblins' tribal effects mostly deal with the library. Still, it's a big enough benefit to outweigh the self-buff Factory offers (which would rarely be useful due to your mana expediture and rarely trying to kill big guys by blocking them) alongside being a non-artifact.
It's also good against other tribal decks, like merfolk or elves, getting the +1/+1 and landwalk ability from Champion and Lord.

Avatara

05-14-2009, 06:48 AM

Alright people, please enlighten me:
Why do you find Stingscourger and Warren Weirding to be so good?

I was playing against eva green the other day... he knew I was playing goblins after I ran over him the first game. In game two he decided to play safe by fetching basic swamps. His third drop was a Bayou and a Goyf. I untap, Vial in Stingscourger to bounce his Goyf... drop a Wasteland and remove his Bayou. Took him a full 3 turns to get that Goyf out into play again. By than I had already played a Ringleader grabbing me Boartusk Liege and Siege-Gang Commander.

Like the people mentioned above... Stingscourger is fully synergetic.

Same counts for mutavault. Waiting for your vial to hit 3 mana? Why not attack with a Mutavault and a hardcast Piledriver in the meantime? The worse thing that will happen is that your opponent will keep his blocker behind, giving you more time to build up.

The Grim Reaper

05-20-2009, 04:34 PM

Recently placed 5th in a 47 man German tournament with this list and would like to discuss a few things:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [LRW] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [B] Badlands
3 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [EVG] Mogg Fanatic
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [FNM] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

Discussion Points:

1. Goblin Pyromancer:

Everyone should be running this guy. He won me so many games over the course of a few tournaments its silly. If you have 5 damage on the table and your opponent taps out feeling safe at 18 life, the look on their face is priceless when you vial Pyromancer in. He also helps win standstill games against untapped goyfs. Simply amazing.

2. Tin-Street Hooligan:

I have never once destroyed an artifact with this card in all the time I've been playing it. The reasons for this are as follows:
- No artifacts in play when I draw him.
- There is an artifact in play, but I have a Warchief in play.
- There is an artifact in play, but I don't have him or a Matron.
- There is an artifact in play, but I don't have a Taiga + Red source.
- Doesn't work with Vial

I've been extremely disappointed with Tin-Street Hooligan. Of course I've also used Tinkerer in the past but Tinkerer always feels too slow. I'm tempted to remove artifact removal all together from the main deck and just run 1 Goblin/4 Grips side. What do you think regarding this slot?

3. Wort:

This card has been pretty decent each time I've tutored or played it. Recurring Weirdings has won me countless fatty wars and I don't think many people have an issue with running 1 main deck.

4. Mogg Fanatic:

Not horrible, but not good either. I side Fanatic out almost every game for either Grips or Relics. I'm thinking I might want to run one of those cards in its place. I know this topic has been done to death and I know there are no better 1 drops save Lackey. I am waiting for Wizards to print another good 1cc and 2cc goblin! What should be run in this slot?

5. No Sharpshooter:

I've never been able to find Sharpshooter when he mattered, and the 3cc slot is already so saturated. I keep one in the board for things like Merfolk/Elves/Tokens/Moat. Any strong opinions on Sharpshooter?

6. Weirding/Incinerator 3/2 Split:

Honestly I've been considering going 4/1 or 4/2 with this. Incinerators have been pretty lackluster but will occasionally take out a Factory or so. 3/2 Has been alright so far.

7. Earwig Squad

Currently I am running 2 in the sideboard to wreck things like Loam decks or decks with few win conditions. I feel like its just a bad siege gang when I run it main deck. When a siege-gang comes into play, opponents cringe and you can go from losing to winning. The same can not always be said about Earwig Squad, though of course he can be played for 3 (saturated slot).

8. Sideboard:

Currently running this:

4x Grip
4x Relic
2x Earwig
1x Tinkerer
1x Weirding
1x Gaea's Blessing (Tech?)
1x Sharpshooter
1x Undecided

Combo Hate: Should we bother with it or just give in? With all the Painter running around I thought Blessing would be a nice card as a one of.

Please let me know your thoughts - any input is greatly appreciated! :)

kabal

05-20-2009, 04:39 PM

With all the Painter running around I thought Blessing would be a nice card as a one of.

Really?? I almost never see Painter/Grindstone.DEC in top 8 in any lists posted here or at deckcheck.net as it pertains to German tournaments.

The Grim Reaper

05-20-2009, 04:51 PM

Really?? I almost never see Painter/Grindstone.DEC in top 8 in any lists posted here or at deckcheck.net as it pertains to German tournaments.

Some guy top 8ed with a Painter/Grindstone variant the last few months IIRC. Is it really that bad to devote 1 sideboard slot to protect yourself from a deadly combo? Of course I am not insinuating that they cannot win through Blessing, but it doesn't hurt, that's for sure.

P-AiR

05-20-2009, 05:59 PM

Goblin Pyromancer has always been appealing to me since I could always cast Weirding or cycle Gempalm Incinerator to kill it so my goblins would not die from it's sac all goblins effect.

I was wondering when can you vial in the pyromancer?

Can you do this after you've declared blockers?

Thanks

leander?

05-20-2009, 06:41 PM

Sure you can. The damage is calculated after the blockers are declared. And in between you can do stuff.

Tacosnape

05-20-2009, 06:45 PM

I've been having a -lot- of luck recently with an RB list that runs 4 Frogtosser Banneret. I've completely changed my stance on this card. The tempo boost you get from cost-reducing spells by 2-3 is incredible.

As such, I have to cut Port. Three of Port's best justifications for inclusions are:

1. Stalling for time while you make land drops.
2. Giving you something additional to do on turn 2.
3. Paying for the colorless costs in most of your goblins.

Frogtosser Banneret eliminates the need for Port by:

1. Making your things cost less instead.
2. Being a 2-drop.
3. Makes a lot of your Goblins cost less or no colorless.

My Current List is:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matronn
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Duress
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gempalm Incinerator

In recent testing, I've come out even or better against Stax, Enchantress, Countertop, Merfolk, and whatever that BGW Rock/Deadguy hybrid from the GP Chicago T8 was called. Got my ass handed to me by Storm Combo and Zoo.

So let's discuss that for a second. Does anyone have any sort of plan on how not to get slaughtered by Zoo? I tried Chalice in SB to help against both Storm and Zoo, but every time I drop a Chalice, they drop a Pridemage, swing at my face, then eat the thing. Pyrokinesis doesn't help either, as Ape and Nacatl tend to have toughness 3, making 2 for 1's nigh impossible. The best thing I can do with Kinesis is try to eat a low-end Goyf or a Thoctar and buy time.

What kills me is turn one Ape/Nacatl, turn two Bolt/Second 1-drop, turn three Chain/Goyf, things like that, spiralling me into a tempo loop I can't recover from. I'm open to suggestions from Goblins or Zoo players alike.

P-AiR

05-20-2009, 07:04 PM

Sure you can. The damage is calculated after the blockers are declared. And in between you can do stuff.

But how is that when players declare blockers we can't in response "tap that blocker"?

Thanks

Ectoplasm

05-20-2009, 07:10 PM

But how is that when players declare blockers we can't in response "tap that blocker"?

Thanks

Because, when you're in the declare blockers step, you aren't going to get priority before the blockers are actually declared, after which you can't change it anymore. The combat-damage is in a completely different step so when switching from the blockstep to the damagestep you get a full switcharound of priority to see if anyone wants to play anything before the switch.

HAVE HEART

05-20-2009, 07:30 PM

But how is that when players declare blockers we can't in response "tap that blocker"?

You can tap a blocking creature, but it will have no effect on the combat's outcome. Once a creature is declared as a blocker, the creature that is blocked is considered blocked for the rest of combat (there are a few cards that change that). Unless the attacking creature has trample, the damage that it does will not be dealt to an opponent.

FoulQ

05-20-2009, 08:00 PM

@ GRIM REAPER: My decklist is almost the same right now. -1 Pyromancer +1 Sharpshooter is it. However our manabases are different. I play 0 ports currently but also 23 lands. How has this been working for you? It seems like a somewhat risky manabase. I'm also interested if anybody can counter Reaper's point about the pyromancer. Just wondering if anybody has been around long enough to explain why he was cut from most lists so long ago. I think he might be good against the many goyf decks we see.

I also run 1 tin street maindeck. However, I run 2 sideboard as well. So far, it has been my favorite sideboard card. In the mirror, against jitte, against chalice stompy decks, against vedalken shackles (I hate this card with a passion even though it isn't that spectacular against goblins), against merfolk, against other random vial decks, against affinity, and against most storm combo decks. Plus it is a goblin, I will not repeat the benefits of that. I recommend everyone playing green to try playing tin street in the board. For your last spot I'd definitely go with a tin street. So far 2 in the SB has worked well for me in many matchups. And personally, I hate earwig squad. I think it is a terrible card because it does not help the gamestate and the #1 enabler in mogg fanatic is usually sided out for him. But otherwise I can't really say what your sideboard should look like because every metagame is different.

I've actually played some against painter, namely trinket painter. I think it's just one of those generic decks goblins should beat. However I have not tested/played against imperial painter, but who the hell plays that...

@ TACOSNAPE: Interesting build. Any build that can maximize on 3 SGC (4 weirding/frogtosser) is always exciting. If you ever decide to go to a tournament with it, tell me how it goes. I also found the zoo matchup to be next to impossible. Bringing in chalice can't hurt though. And chalice makes it so you don't have to get embarassed by first round burn. As it stands I'm also having difficulties with this matchup, 2nd worst behind storm, but unlike storm, sideboarding has yet to be established against the deck.

revenge_inc

05-21-2009, 02:14 AM

4 Frogtosser Banneret

I've been testing 1-2 maindeck(with 2 Ports main)and they have performed well. I would be quite hesitant to play 4 because I would have to further cut the powerful goblins from the deck. How often have you tempo'ed into nothing (multiple Ringleader/Frogtosser)?

Zoo

How often to you manage to keep enough goblins on the board to be able to Gempalm away their threats? Personally it has been a problem. Our other options (main or board are):

-Warren Weirding (I'm still not a fan; I don't want to give my opponent free creatures)
-Lightning Bolt (It kills their non Goyf threats)
-StP/Path (I'm not a fan of the white splash)
-Snuff Out (Nobody plays this card but personally I love it in R/b goblin, IMO the tempo gain is great.)
-Perish (This card seems to deal with a surprising amount of threats in both Zoo and Threshold. I have yet to test it but if anybody has please share your result.)

Anybody have any other removal options to add?

Ectoplasm

05-21-2009, 03:59 AM

-Warren Weirding (I'm still not a fan; I don't want to give my opponent free creatures)

It only gives free creatures when your opponent sacrifices a goblin, outside of mogg fanatic nobody plays goblins in non-goblindecks

revenge_inc

05-21-2009, 04:28 AM

It only gives free creatures when your opponent sacrifices a goblin, outside of mogg fanatic nobody plays goblins in non-goblindecks
I totally misread that card *facepalm*

Avatara

05-21-2009, 06:55 AM

But how is that when players declare blockers we can't in response "tap that blocker"?

Thanks

The attacking player has priority while declaring attacks. All attackers are declared instantly... it's not possible to respond to them. The defending player gets priority once all attackers have been declared. Tapping a creature that is already declared as an attacker wont remove it from the combat phase.

However you can tap creatures when the player announces the combat phase (before attackers are declared).

Aggro_zombies

05-21-2009, 07:16 AM

My Current List is:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matronn
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Duress
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gempalm Incinerator
I'm neither a Zoo or (regular) Goblins player, but I do have a question: why Hovel over Blood Crypt? I understand that you don't have to shock yourself to have it come into play untapped, but you can get Crypt with your fetches, which seems like it would improve your Ringleaders, if only slightly. Is two damage that much of a liability outside of Zoo?

Avatara

05-21-2009, 07:32 AM

Tacosnape

05-21-2009, 09:00 AM

I'm neither a Zoo or (regular) Goblins player, but I do have a question: why Hovel over Blood Crypt? I understand that you don't have to shock yourself to have it come into play untapped, but you can get Crypt with your fetches, which seems like it would improve your Ringleaders, if only slightly. Is two damage that much of a liability outside of Zoo?

Having additional fetch targets isn't going to affect my Ringleaders one way or the other. I'm still going to draw the same number of fetchlands.

I could run 8 fetches and 2 Hovels if I so chose. This would affect things. Number of fetch targets only matters if you run out of lands to fetch, which will probably never happen. That said, given that the matchup I'm trying to shore up the most is Zoo, all life matters.

ScatmanX

05-21-2009, 12:52 PM

Finally someones playing Frogtosser!
It's great in the RB build. I posted like 10 or so pages ago.
Also, in my list, I also like to have 2-3 Earwig Squad's MD. With 7-8 Goblins that decrease the costs of your dudes, the odds ofit coming down on Turn 2 increases a lot, wich is great in a LOT of MU's!

I'd remove 1 Weirdings (because there are lots of goblins around here) and something else. Maybe the Fanaics, don't know.

Shriekmaw

05-21-2009, 01:21 PM

The zoo matchup is always very hard and the only goblin deck I had sucess against it is the R/g version which I currently play. It's a pretty standard list with 4 gempalm incinerators and 2 stingcourgers which does buy time against zoo. My strategy is to by as much time as possible and overrun them with creatures.

I also play 4 wasteland & 4 ports which help with the mana denial theme since most zoo lists do run a low land count since their mana curve is 2. I just keep aggressive hands and hope for the best. It's a matchup where goblins is definetely at a disadvantage, but buying as much time as possible seemed to work the best so far.

My board plan is to bring in the 4 pyrokinesis from the board which does give you answers. One of the reasons why I like the card is because you never have to worry about leaving mana up to play the game which allows you to play much more aggressively.

I know you don't want to overextend against decks, but this is the one deck where I really think you have to. Sorry, but I don't have any solid answers to this matchup playing R/g.

I think black could have more removal in the board if you are really worried about this matchup. Terminate, Shriekmaw, and Perish comes to mind.

The Grim Reaper

05-21-2009, 05:18 PM

Tacosnape

05-21-2009, 05:26 PM

My strategy is to by as much time as possible and overrun them with creatures.

My board plan is to bring in the 4 pyrokinesis from the board which does give you answers. One of the reasons why I like the card is because you never have to worry about leaving mana up to play the game which allows you to play much more aggressively.

I know you don't want to overextend against decks, but this is the one deck where I really think you have to. Sorry, but I don't have any solid answers to this matchup playing R/g.

I think black could have more removal in the board if you are really worried about this matchup. Terminate, Shriekmaw, and Perish comes to mind.

Sounds like you're pretty much thinking along the same lines as me.

My problem with Terminate, Shriekmaw, and Perish is that none of them are fast enough to swing the tempo back around in my favor. (Although wiping 2-3 for 1 with Perish might be the exception) I've thought about Snuff Out in addition to Pyrokinesis, but it kind of sucks in that Zoo never tends to mind me doing 4 to myself. Ditto for Vendetta.

What I need is removal that costs 1 or 0, and isn't so narrow that it won't help me in any other matchups. Short of Deathmark and Lightning Bolt I haven't come up with much that is particularly useful in the matchup.

GreenOne

05-22-2009, 07:18 AM

What I need is removal that costs 1 or 0, and isn't so narrow that it won't help me in any other matchups. Short of Deathmark and Lightning Bolt I haven't come up with much that is particularly useful in the matchup.
It's probably a narrow idea, but what about meekstone?

Tacosnape

05-22-2009, 09:06 AM

It's probably a narrow idea, but what about meekstone?

That's...interesting. Cheap and easily playable. It doesn't stop Kird Ape or Qasali Pridemage though. And Pridemage stops it. That said, it would do a pretty decent job of keeping Nacatl and Goyf from getting more than one hit. Or zero if I chump.

My gut instinct is that it probably won't be worth it and that it'll get removed the moment I count on it the most. But I might test it out.

ScatmanX

05-22-2009, 04:28 PM

I heva tested Meekstone in the past. The result: Awesome.

Phyrexian Dreadgnout? I'm good at 8 life.
Goyf? You'll need lot's of them to kill me.
Toombstalker? same as goyf.
Terravore/Crusher? Idem.
Goose/Sea Drake/Exalted Angel/ Arc-Sloger/goes on...

The problem there is to find space in the SB, and is rather dificult. You have to look wich cards are best agains't wich decks, and see what yoo are willing to give up on.
With Taco's SB, He could try -2 Needle, - 1Relic, +3 Meekstone. Try it for some time.

Also, I had them in the SB in the MonoRed build. I don't see why a build with 4 Warren's Weirding would need that in the SB. (exept from the Zoo MU).

All that said, If you haven't tested it, I'd suggest you to. It's a must anweser agins't some decks, and buys you lot's of time again's others. Sure thing.

Avatara

05-22-2009, 05:28 PM

Meekstone & Uphill Battle?

Uphill Battle - Enchantment 2R
Creatures your opponents play come into play tapped.

Tacosnape

05-22-2009, 05:31 PM

It's also a good point that if you run Meekstone and Warren Weirding in the same deck, and your opponent has a configuration of say, Pridemage/Tarmogoyf (Can happen in Thresh or Zoo), they can just sack the useless Goyf to the Weirding if you have the Meekstone in play.

1maarten1

05-23-2009, 11:06 AM

Could someone explain me why people are saying that a RG version is superior to other versions like RB?? It seems to me that weirding/auntie/duress is better then grips/hooligans or something.

thanks, Maarten

ScatmanX

05-23-2009, 11:14 AM

Meekstone & Uphill Battle would take too much SB space for a so-so combo, so it isn´t worth it.

@1maarten1:
I guess there are lot's of players that think that RB is superior, like me and Taco for instance. There are also lots of players that prefer the RG or RGB build, like Nick. It's a matter of how you play the deck, and what you're pretending to play agins't. There is no such thing as the best color configuration.

FoulQ

05-23-2009, 11:33 AM

No version is strictly superior than another, in my opinion. It's all metagame consideration.

Why play RG?
1) Reliable answer to plague.
2) TSH is freaking ridiculous. Play with it for a while, in multiples. Or play 1 like most people.
3) Still get to play port and most sideboard options (RBG has troubles with port sometimes)
4) Stingscourger can replace weirding in many situations.

Black gives weirding and wort, maybe some sideboard options like leyline and perish. Rg is fairly close to Monored in most builds. I am personally playing Rbg right now. But at big events you don't want to lose to wasteland and so forth, so I would play Rg or Rb at a major event like GP: Chicago. Rg answers many of the random decks that can appear with grips, while Rb answers some of the most popular decks but somewhat more narrowly. Plus since there are so many goblins at major events, people will be packing plagues, which means you probably should be packing grips, as it is the #1 answer to plague.

1maarten1

05-23-2009, 12:16 PM

Ok, thanks! I think im going to start testing a Rg list. Can someone gimme a nice Rg list with sideboard so i can start testing with it?? :rolleyes:

thanks, Maarten

Nessaja

05-23-2009, 02:38 PM

jjjoness'

05-23-2009, 03:04 PM

Goblins doesn't need black for powerful effects, mono builds already offer a lot of power. Do you need more power then mono red builds offer, effectively making your strategy weaker as well because you suddenly need nonbasics? Green is considered a superior splash because it deals with goblins biggest problem, enchantments.

Enchantments can be a problem, but besides Moat, Humility and Engineered Plague (which don't seem to see a lot of play) there's not much to fear. Imho freakin Wall of Goyf is a bigger problem than most enchantments.
But of course that's also a real meta choice.

Ectoplasm

05-23-2009, 03:50 PM

Goblins doesn't need black for powerful effects, mono builds already offer a lot of power. Do you need more power then mono red builds offer, effectively making your strategy weaker as well because you suddenly need nonbasics? Green is considered a superior splash because it deals with goblins biggest problem, enchantments.

:rolleyes:
Black solves Tarmogoyf.

What to splash is a meta-choice, but if you're going into an unknown meta (any semibig tournament) you'll most likely need the weirdings.

Nessaja

05-23-2009, 05:14 PM

You don't need black to deal with Tarmogoyf. Weirding doesn't "solve" Tarmogoyf at all. It's more a solve for Dreadnought then anything.

And while it's true that Moat and Humility don't see a lot of play (Landstill, White Stax and Mighty Quinn use one or the other) there's still Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and Engineered Plague which is in every damn sideboard eversince Merfolks got populair too. And then there's the odd Enchantress build which has Solitary Confinement as well as the above.

It's not so much that those cards are all over the place, it's that Goblins effectively can't do anything when they hit the table where-as goblins has all the tools needed in mono red to deal with goyf.

Berzerked

05-23-2009, 05:28 PM

Actually the main reason RB is my favorite right now is not only because of Wierding (Stingscourger is about even in my books. They both are great and suck in about the same number of situations.), but because of 3x Thoughtseize MD, with 4x Therapy in the board.
Ya, blah blah blah, Ringleader, whatever. In testing, Thoughtseize has been amazing. A lot of what Goblins hates to see is 3cc+, which Seize answers preemptively (not to mention grabbing Goyf early). And in a lot of cases your opponent will either hold back answers waiting a little while for you to overextend, or not be able to play them because of Waste/Port shenanigans. These are more scenarios where Seize is great.
Post board, the amount of discard (especially the Therapies) are just savage. Also, with the meta becoming generally slower and more control oriented, I have not missed the fact that Seize doesn't attack.

Just my 2 cents.

Ectoplasm

05-23-2009, 07:42 PM

Tacosnape

05-24-2009, 10:29 AM

no_chi

05-24-2009, 11:48 AM

Hi. Long time lurker, first time poster. :smile:

Here's the Rgb Goblins list I have been using for several tourneys now:

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Taiga

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Aether Vial
2 Warren Weirding

SB:
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Shattering Spree
2 Earwig Squad
1 Warren Weirding

The SB is never constant, just what I think may be useful depending on what decks I see. The meta here is mostly BG(w) Rock, some burn, some aggro/control, and very little combo. If I were to make changes, I would do the following:

maindeck:
-1 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Tin Street Hooligan
+2 Warren Weirding

sideboard:
-3 Shattering Spree
-1 Warren Weirding
+1 Earwig Squad
+2 Tranquil Domain
+1 Tin Street Hooligan

The meta is usually random, but I expect lots of black decks packing Plagues, and other decks packing enchantment hate (Sphere of Law, CoP:Red, Chill). Any suggestions on the maindeck and SB? Have the Frogtossers and Squads maindeck worked? What decks are they good against?

Thanks! :smile:

4eak

05-24-2009, 12:31 PM

@ Tacosnape

I'll never go back away from black after testing Frogtosser Banneret, though. Seriously might be the most unfairly dismissed card ever.

It is definitely a good card, but Goblins is already a pretty tight list. I'd definitely run the card if it lowered the cost by :r: instead of :1: or added haste to all. At the moment, I'm just not convinced by the card.

peace,
4eak

HedleyKow

05-24-2009, 03:21 PM

Nice to see more people running Frogtosser. I've been running him since he was released, but haven't had much success convincing others to run him.

My logic was, goblins is so much better with a way to play stuff for less in play, like an active vial/warchief/lackey than it is without one. So, when given the opportunity to add more cards of that nature, why wouldn't you? Frogtosser acts like warchief #5-8, while also filling in the barren two drop slot.

Also, the haste is so nice with piledriver. A common play is turn 2 piledriver followed by turn 3 frogtosser; or double frogtosser, or frogtosser+weirding. And, another added benefit is, running frogtosser makes it more feasible to play larger numbers of Siege-Gang Commander. Currently I'm running 4 SGC, and 3-4 Frogtossers.

FoulQ

05-24-2009, 03:36 PM

Damn you people. I might have to retest frogtosser. I'm just not convinced with him mainly because he does nothing on his own and costs B instead of R (duh). But now I have no choice.

no_chi

05-25-2009, 09:30 AM

The Grim Reaper

05-25-2009, 10:12 AM

If Frogtossers would be included maindeck, what should be removed? Fanatics? Gempalms? And how should the manabase look then?

I've had experience with Frogtossers, but in Extended Goblins last season. It allowed very explosive turns 3-4, winning a turn faster perhaps. I have yet to test them in Legacy.

I replaced 3 Fanatics and 1 Tin-Street Hooligan with the Frogtossers. Tin-Street + Frogtosser + Warchief = No Synergy. You can scroll up a bit to see my mana base, which works fine with this configuration. Mogg Fanatics have been a bit underwhelming for me, and Frogtossers have been great in testing. Dropping everything earlier past turn 2 is a significant boost to the deck's speed. 2 mana Ringleaders become common-place.

scrumdogg

05-25-2009, 01:02 PM

FWIW, Black has a pretty good enchantress matchup compared to RG. Grip's nice on paper, but Sterling Grove shuts it off, and they have way more targets than you can Grip away. Warren Weirding does what nothing else does, however, in that it can at least get rid of Argothian Enchantress. Combined with discard from the sideboard, it gives you a chance to shut the opponent off of their draw, which makes the match far more manageable.

If Enchantress doesn't have draw, it doesn't really have Solitary Confinement either. And for the attack prevention cards, Siege-Gang Commander and Sharpshooter (If you run it) give you reach to circumvent this.

I'll never go back away from black after testing Frogtosser Banneret, though. Seriously might be the most unfairly dismissed card ever.

I can vouch for this from the other side. Played vs RGB Goblins with Enchantress last week Round 5, winner makes Top 4. Games 1 & 3, my Argothians get shanked, Goblins cheats things into play, and can't stabilize because my engine is crippled, I lose. I like the idea of Frogtosser & ditching Port, but Ports also kept me from trying to stabilize by tapping my best land (enchanted, off color, Serra's Sanctum) every upkeep in that Enchantress match-up. Admittedly, Enchantress isn't a common match-up, but being able to screw with a control deck's mana while still cheating guys into play, classic recipe for goblin success.

On to Zoo etc, have people considered EE in the sideboard? Even in the 2 color versions it seems fine, with access to 3 colors it has the ability to get stupid. And with 23-25 lands, dropping & blowing it early shouldn't be too difficult - either as a preventitive (they won't extend further into it) or as punishment for them utilizing their efficient mana curve. I haven't tested this yet, but with merfolk running rampant locally (including me lately >.>) I am getting the itch to try Goblins. Will post any results gathered.

Tacosnape

05-25-2009, 01:44 PM

If you're re-testing Frogtosser, here's what I would advise you.

1. Don't run Port. 8 colorless adding lands and 8 colorless cost reducers do not synergize. I've in the last three days alone been played multiple Ringleaders for :r: and Siege-Gangs for :r::r:.

2. Don't run Tin-Street Hooligan. I haven't even begun to try piecing together a 3-color Frogtosser list, but as Grim Reaper just mentioned, 8 cost reducers and TSH suck. Can't believe I'm saying this, but Tinkerer might be the way to go.

3. Don't run more than 22 land. Frogtosser makes all the difference in the world here. You have sixteen ways in your deck to get a Siege-Gang commander in play without hitting five land.

4. Run four Weirding. That card gets a lot better midgame when it's continuously costing one mana.

@Scrumdogg: Explosives might be a decent Zoo idea. I've recently come to play this in a few odd decks (Including modern BW Deadguy) by thinking of it in my head as very often being a 1-drop. And incredible 1-drops are what Goblins seems to be needing the most. Explosives is also more versatile than all my other options, and with the splash of a singleton Plateau/Volcanic/Taiga I could be getting rid of Plague with them in R/B.

coraz86

05-25-2009, 03:25 PM

Tacosnape

05-25-2009, 04:08 PM

Explosives also would help with the Dredge matchup if you're cutting Fanatics. It may even be better, since you have to time the Fanatic to try and maximize the number of Bridges you're removing, but you can just let the EE sit until they try and swing. (Of course, EE then isn't an option until turn two, but how often does Dredge honestly win on turn one?)

That's true. Turn one Relic or Fanatic + EE for 0 isn't a bad opener here. Not to mention that Pyrokinesis can eat Narcomoeba and Imp off the board.

I haven't cut Fanatic entirely. There's too many matches I love it (Survival, anything with Confidant, etc). But I'm only running a pair currently. Not sold as to exactly how I'm going to go in this regard.

Currently going to test the following list.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
1 Plateau
5 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Umezawa's Jitte/Duress/Needle/Something

ScatmanX

05-25-2009, 06:44 PM

Taco, Seriously?
I AM going to test that, but it seems quite weird.
4 Warren´s + 2 Gempalm + 2 Fanatics isn´t overkill?
Do you really need 4 Relic´s in the SB? With all that Removal? Fear Goyf much?
Regarding the argument agains´t Ichorid, what would you do? 12 cards from SB?
And other combo? Forgotten?

To me it looks that the deck is tuned to a heavy Zoo/Merfolk/Survival/Ichorid meta, but don´t see it going very well agains´t a whole of other MU´s, specially Goblins (MonoR and RG).

That said, going to test it.

PS: Have you tested a certain card that, in a deck with 8 acellerators may often be a 1B 5/3 Jester's Cap? It sure is working for me.

Tacosnape

05-26-2009, 03:15 AM

Oddly didn't like Explosives in testing today. I still got rolled by Zoo, and spending the 3 mana (Or 1 only to have it be eaten by Pridemage) wasn't all that great. Also, I never hit a plague with it. I think this might be because I kept playing it against Black decks, which kept either knocking it out of my hand or Hymn/Wastelanding me out of my 3-drop. I'll test further, but for now I'm backing out of that plan.

@Scatman: It's pretty versatile, actually. And I don't find 4 Weirding, 2 Fanatic, 2 Gempalm to be overkill. Goblins needs removal. It has to swing for the win with pound for pound the weakest threats in the format.

I've never liked Squad ever, but I'll probably test it in sideboard at this point. Frogtosser Banneret makes it more likely to succeed. I'm bouncing around between Squad, Tinkerer, and Auntie all as potential sideboard options. Narrow ones, admittedly, but at least they're Goblins.

I roll over to other Goblin decks fairly often, I admit. Game 1 is never good when you run Warren Weirding. That said, some Goblin decks aren't packing Mogg Fanatic and pack less than four Gempalms. These matchups I win fairly often, as they tend to have difficulties getting rid of Frogtosser Banneret. If My Frogtossers/Warchiefs live, I can pull game one out. Game two, Warren Weirding goes out for Pyrokinesis, and we try again.

As for Relic of Progenitus, it's not just for Tarmogoyf. It just happens to be the best choice against Tarmogoyf of the group. Relic's fantastic against a huge field, and I don't have a problem playing it in narrow situations, as the cantrip helps greatly negate the card spent. That said, I may cut down to 3.

no_chi

05-26-2009, 09:16 AM

What exactly are Frogtossers good and bad against? I haven't had the time to test the Frogtosser version, but the goldfishing sessions seem good. Would a RBg Frogtosser build be stretching it?

kicks_422

05-26-2009, 09:27 AM

I guess RBG with Bannerets and Weirdings MD and the G only for Krosan Grips in the SB would be fine. That was where I was (sans the Bannerets, had Fanatics in place of those) before I sold off the deck.

Ectoplasm

05-26-2009, 09:54 AM

With 'auntie', taco, are you referring to wort or mad auntie?
I've tested mad auntie extensively, both main and side, and I must say I have been gravely disappointed with her. Sometimes she'd regenerate a goblin piledriver but often she'd just do nothing at all, except sitting back, pumping your matrons and lackeys and regenerating a 3/3 ringleader.

Pretty much the definition of a win-more card.

Mantis

05-26-2009, 10:13 AM

First of all, I still think I'm going to stick to RG Goblins. Warren Weirding is terrible imo, I never liked it in testing and at least Stingscourger attacks and Gempalm finds lands, 2 for 1's or attacks.

For the sideboard I'm considering the following to replace Krosan Grip: Filigree Fracture
http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/82.html. It's going to take an awful lot of work to determine how often the split second of Grip is relevant so my question: How relevant has Split second been for you?

HdH_Cthulhu

05-26-2009, 10:20 AM

The only thing where you draw a card from Filigree Fracture is obv Counterbalance. But goblins just dont care about CB so i think KGrip is much better in this deck.

ScatmanX

05-26-2009, 12:36 PM

yeah, and it´s kind of hard to determin if Split Second is all that good, since we don't get to see if the oponent had counters or not.
I guess that Grip is better. The card drwn doesen't make up for the fact that you MAY not kill a Phyrexian Dreadnought this turn...

@Ectoplasm,
He ment Mad Auntie. He hates Wort.
Interesting that in my tests, Mad Auntie have proven ifself to be preety good.
Guess that it may be good to some, and suck to others, depending on how you like to play the deck.

Taco, to imprive the goblin MU G1, try to squeeze 1 Sharpshooter main. I'm a great fan of that, and it works wonder for me, in lot's of MU's. In the others, you can just side them out.

Mantis

05-26-2009, 12:47 PM

@ScatmanX: the reason I proposed Fracture in the first place is that Dreadnought is basically on a decline. This started when people began packing Sower of Temptations and Krosan Grip saw increasingly more play to answer the Dreadnought. If Dreadnought is a big portion of the metagame I would play Krosan Grip without a doubt.

The only thing where you draw a card from Filigree Fracture is obv Counterbalance. But goblins just dont care about CB so i think KGrip is much better in this deck.
That's just false, Engineered Plague is basically the reason we started putting Kro Grip in the SB in the first place. Also, against any deck that doesn't play blue Krosan Grip and Fracture are just as good. The question really is how relevant Split Second is, as the draw is obviously a bonus and denying that would be silly.

I'm not emotionally attached to Fracture or whatever and I don't care shit for being innovative, I just want the best deck, so if it turns out the split second was relevant I'll be the first one to admit Fracture is bad.

Malchar

05-26-2009, 12:49 PM

Split Second rarely matters. The only reason that I have been using Krosan Grip is because of fear of Pernicious Deed. In that case, it's still very difficult to pull off. I would suggest something like Hull Breach that costs less and occasionally pulls a two-for-one. Remember, the deck's main threat is any enchantment that is not Counterbalance. Hull Breach works great against Stax obviously, and it simply costs less against all the other decks with enchantments that don't have countermagic anyway.

As for combo hate, I draw the line after Leyline of the Void, which is my favorite. It buys enough time for you, and it doesn't wreck your tempo.

Mantis

05-26-2009, 12:56 PM

Yup you are right, forgot about Deed, Explosives and Jitte somehow. I guess that justifies Krosan Grip after all.

ScatmanX

05-26-2009, 01:06 PM

Sorry, but why is Grip better then Fracture agains't Deed? They hardly play it the turn it comes down so, why does it matter?

GreenOne

05-26-2009, 01:17 PM

That's just false, Engineered Plague is basically the reason we started putting Kro Grip in the SB in the first place. Also, against any deck that doesn't play blue Krosan Grip and Fracture are just as good. The question really is how relevant Split Second is, as the draw is obviously a bonus and denying that would be silly.

I'm not emotionally attached to Fracture or whatever and I don't care shit for being innovative, I just want the best deck, so if it turns out the split second was relevant I'll be the first one to admit Fracture is bad.

Krosan Grip is better against blue decks playing artifacts and enchantments. This obviously means any kind of Moat, Humility, Dreadnough, CB, top, EE, Shackles. In the end, it's all about how many landstills or blue based (non-aggro) control decks are where you play.

Tacosnape

05-26-2009, 01:56 PM

Okay, one topic at a time.

@Split Second: You have all lost your damn mind. Filigree Fracture? Are you kidding me?

The Split Second is relevant. It crushes Pernicious Deed. It crushes things like Humility or Plague in decks like Landstill, where a counter kills you. The number of situations where Grip is good is off the chart. Oh, and it hits Phyrexian Dreadnought against Dreadstill, too.

Secondly, if you aren't going to run Krosan Grip, run something good. Either go with a Tin-Street / Tranquil Domain split, or run Seal of Primordium, which at least costs less and can come down under Standstill, Counterbalance, and gives Black less time to knock it out of your hand with topdecked discard.

What exactly are Frogtossers good and bad against? I haven't had the time to test the Frogtosser version, but the goldfishing sessions seem good. Would a RBg Frogtosser build be stretching it?

Everything and Nothing, in that order. The only time Frogtosser is ever bad is if you need it to be a specific other goblin worse. As I cut 1 Gempalm, 2 Fanatic, 1 Piledriver in my build for it, the only time I would call it bad is if I needed it to be one of those four worse.

RBG Frogtosser wouldn't be stretching it. I've been tinkering around with that actually. SB of Pyro, Grip, Relic, Duress/EE.

With 'auntie', taco, are you referring to wort or mad auntie?
I've tested mad auntie extensively, both main and side, and I must say I have been gravely disappointed with her. Sometimes she'd regenerate a goblin piledriver but often she'd just do nothing at all, except sitting back, pumping your matrons and lackeys and regenerating a 3/3 ringleader.

Pretty much the definition of a win-more card.

First, I meant Auntie. Scatman's right. I hate Wort.

Second, the point of Auntie is single and narrow and probably why I won't end up running it. It's the best thing I can come up with for RB to answer Plague without a black splash. That's it. Period. Duress is a worse answer, but Duress is at least good against both combo and control where Auntie's just a body that is occasionally useful against Deed or Pyroclasm.

@Scatman: Sharpshooter is my ultimate love-hate card. I find it harder to justify when I don't run as many Fanatics anymore, as Fanatic/Sharpshooter is just silly delicious. That said, I've wanted it against Stax and Enchantress recently for reach. So I may give it a try.

true story

05-26-2009, 06:45 PM

FoulQ

05-26-2009, 07:09 PM

Anyone playing black splash should be playing Terminate, it is amazing. Yes I realize it's not a Goblin and Ringleadering into it sucks, so what? Turn 1 Lackey, Turn 2 Terminate whatever they got as a blocker, good game. It's better than Gempalm, Fanatic, Stingscourger, maybe better than Weirdings. True story.

I don't know about you, but getting RB on turn two in an environment with a lot of wastes/stifles (mine), especially when running 4 waste 3-4 port in RB or 4 waste and green stuff you need in RBG makes a turn two terminate somewhat unwieldy. Not to mention that has daze written all over it. StP does the same thing and for a single W which I think is somewhat easier to handle. And yes I know the next point will be that the black splash is superior but I wouldn't necessarily say that's true, especially when you end up running terminates over weirdings. I'll agree though that terminate is a good card in some metas.

ScatmanX

05-26-2009, 07:34 PM

Tacosnape

05-26-2009, 09:35 PM

no_chi

05-26-2009, 10:07 PM

Let's say I have a hand that contains 2x Badlands, Mountain, 2x Frogtosser, Piledriver, some other card. The correct play would be turn 2 Piledriver, turn 3 double Frogtossers, right? In what scenarios must one of the Frogtossers be played turn 2?

I'm torn between Frogtosser and Fanatic, and the Ports have won me a few games in the past.

What cards should come out against BG Rock games 2/3?

EDIT: Also, does anyone have the time to make a primer for the Frogtosser build? :)

true story

05-26-2009, 10:30 PM

If I'm going to play non-goblin removal in RB, why should I play Terminate for 2 mana instead of Snuff Out for 0, or Pyrokinesis for 0?

Or, the better question, why not just play Warren Weirding? Also gets the Lackey through for 2, but the two can be Badlands/Wasteland in a pinch. Very often can be casted for 1. Can be Matroned. Can be Ringleadered. Hits Progenitus. Hits Argothian Enchantress. Hits Silver Knight. Etc. Weirding >> Terminate.

I was really bored and wanted to fuck with some one. I never said play Terminate over Weirding, I run 3 of each and it's awesome. Pyrokinesis isn't bad but 6 mana or 2 cards? I'll pass. Snuff out doesn't seem like a bad idea at all, but I don't own them so Terminate wins for now.

true story

05-26-2009, 10:36 PM

I don't know about you, but getting RB on turn two in an environment with a lot of wastes/stifles (mine), especially when running 4 waste 3-4 port in RB or 4 waste and green stuff you need in RBG makes a turn two terminate somewhat unwieldy. Not to mention that has daze written all over it. StP does the same thing and for a single W which I think is somewhat easier to handle. And yes I know the next point will be that the black splash is superior but I wouldn't necessarily say that's true, especially when you end up running terminates over weirdings. I'll agree though that terminate is a good card in some metas.

I never said Terminate over Weirdings, I use both. Didn't I already say this? Oh well. Yes daze and Stifle can fuck up your plans on turn 2, but they'd fuck up anything you try to do on turn 2 anyway so whatever. I'm not gonna say Rb is better than Rw cause if I owned Plateaus I'd run Rw.

true story

05-26-2009, 10:42 PM

Please, Terminate?!
T1 Lackey, T2 Weirdings does the same thing. It's tutorable. Has reduced cost with Warchief/Frogtosser in play. Goes to hand with Ringleader... Seriously, there is no reason to play Terminate instead of Weirdings.

That is so not True tory...

Terminate AND Weirdings run shit. True story. Until you at least try it don't act like I'm some dumb fuck and I don't know what I'm saying.

Patrunkenphat7

05-27-2009, 12:52 AM

Does anyone play Mono-R anymore (as in no taigas or badlands)? I don't play this deck and neither do my friends, so I was just wondering. Gotta get ready for the bigger tournaments...

Mantis

05-27-2009, 07:20 AM

Okay guys, I was probably wrong about Filigree Fracture. Not sure what I was thinking I guess I didn't come across Deed and Landstill in testing for a while and only faced decks with Engineered Plague giving me a wrong impression. Nailing Jitte, Top, Humility, Moat, Deed, EE and Dreadnought seems too important.

However I have given Taco's RB version some thought too. First of all, I don't think I could live without Rishadan Port as I have won so many games because of that card. I can understand the additional need for black sources with the 4 Weirding and 4 Frogtosser but I would definately not go that way at the expense of Port. Port makes the Landstill match a blowout and gives you tools to fight combo along with Chalice from the board. I see you have cut the Chalices from the board entirely and I'm not sure I approve of this switch. Chalice gives you outs to decks that are very bad matchups otherwise and you can win everything else by careful play. That said, boardspace is tight so how is Engineered Explosives working out for you and what do you board it in against?

I also don't like having only 22 lands, to me either 23 or 24 has always been the right number. With Frogtosser I suppose I would deviate towards 23 lands. Playing 22 lands does make sense without Port though, but still manaflood seems better managable than manascrew so 23 is the number for me.

With that in mind here's what I will be testing for a while:
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
1 Taiga (bluffing Kro Grip or TSH seems better than Plateau)
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver (Piledriver seems like the best reason to start running Frogtossers, I'm confused about this)
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Engineered Explosives/Krosan Grip (will have to adjust the manabase for Grips)
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thoughtseize/Chalice of the Void

I really don't know if the curve can support cutting the Mogg Fanatics completely, so that's definately something to look into.

Also, the Frogtossers make Engineered Plague a HUGE problem, would you side them out if you expect your opponent to bring in Plagues? Or are they THAT good?

FoulQ

05-27-2009, 07:26 AM

I never said Terminate over Weirdings, I use both. Didn't I already say this? Oh well. Yes daze and Stifle can fuck up your plans on turn 2, but they'd fuck up anything you try to do on turn 2 anyway so whatever. I'm not gonna say Rb is better than Rw cause if I owned Plateaus I'd run Rw.

Wow, are you drunk? My post debating the terminate idea was #2376, your post explaining that you play BOTH weirding and terminate was #2380. Yes you already said it once and then you managed to double post and say it again. I think some people assumed you cut weirdings for terminate because if you don't you are running a shit ton of removal, which apparently you are. There a billion other ways to get rid of a lone blocker for lackey on t2 other than terminate.

Tacosnape

05-27-2009, 09:14 AM

@Mantis: I'd cut Frogtosser Banneret if you're going to run Port. They seriously don't like each other at all.

I'm still working on Plague solutions for RB. Frogtossers suck against Plague, obviously. My sideboard is currently:

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus

Duress comes in against Plague. It's a poor answer, but sometimes you can pull it off. And at least Duress is good against a ton of other decks, also.

Thinking about possibly the fourth Driver or a Wort in place of Relic #4 to help play through a singleton Plague, too.

FoulQ

05-27-2009, 09:25 AM

true story

05-27-2009, 01:22 PM

Wow, are you drunk? My post debating the terminate idea was #2376, your post explaining that you play BOTH weirding and terminate was #2380. Yes you already said it once and then you managed to double post and say it again. I think some people assumed you cut weirdings for terminate because if you don't you are running a shit ton of removal, which apparently you are. There a billion other ways to get rid of a lone blocker for lackey on t2 other than terminate.

I hardly think 3 of each qualifies as a shit ton of removal. I don't play Gempalm cause he doesn't kill big dudes and he sucks when no other Goblins are in play. Besides can you ever have to much removal? Killing shit and bashing face is how I've played every goblin deck I've had for the past 16 years... Fuck it. I was just trying to tell people how good Terminate has been to me, but since you all think I'm retarded fuck off.

No thanks. Instead of fucking off, I prefer to issue you a warning. Please post politely. No need to get our panties in a twist over Magical discussions.

-PR

ScatmanX

05-27-2009, 01:50 PM

fucking off...

So, the Fracture discussion mademe think of something: Seal of Primordium.
You can drop it while their threats are not even in play (E.P., Dreadnought, Standstill), and if they want to drop them, they'll have to search for an anweser to Seal. It's better against discard, because you don't have to hold it.
Eva Gree uses it, so why don't we give it a shot?
If someone tried it already, I'd like to hear.

Edit: Patrunkenphat7, search the thread a little.
On post 2276, Nessaja posted a kick-ass MonoRed build, wich was heavly discussed.

Tacosnape

05-27-2009, 05:21 PM

@ Tacosnape: I am with Mantis on this one. Wouldn't running surprise R piledrivers be one of the major benefits of x4 frogtosser? Also is there a reason for Duress over Thoughtseize? I've always preferred Thoughtseize over Duress in this deck.

The Piledrivers aren't surprises with Frogtosser, as Frogtosser doesn't give them haste. Warchief's needed for this.

You could run quad Drivers just fine, probably. I might test 3 Frogtosser and 4 Drivers. But the thing about Driver is that you can cast so many more Matrons and Ringleaders so quickly that you rarely miss having the fourth one. Additionally, Driver doesn't get any extra benefit from having two cost reducers in play. Feel free to try it out though. I'd love input on Frogtosser heavy builds.

The guy I actually want to run more of is Gempalm Incinerator. I've quickly discovered that with Frogtossers, he's actually a more viable fighting Goblin, often being a 2/1 for :r: if they've got an empty board. Additionally, as I can often cast Siege-Gang for 2-3, his cycling ability's a little stronger.

@Thoughtseize vs. Duress:

After trying to formulate an answer, I concede it might should be Thoughtseize. Sigh. Dammit. That's expensive.:cry: Oh well. Points to you for making me think.

I face Burn a lot. Duress is better here. And in a lot of matchups (Landstill, Epic Storm, etc), I don't care about the difference. That said, in trying to argue in favor of Duress, I came up with the following advantages for Thoughtseize.

1. It might be better against Black aggro-control decks with Plague. In case there's not a Plague, I can hit the most threatening threat. The two life might be relevant here, but being able to take Confidant/Stalker/Shade/Whatever out of the hand probably offsets this.

2. It's better against Enchantress, which I face often. It would come in for Fanatic/Gempalm in this matchup, giving me eight ways to kill Argothian Enchantress.

3. It's better against Painter Stone, Cephalid Breakfast, or any combo deck built around creatures. Gives me a ton of cards to board in in these matchups, with Pyrokinesis and Thoughtseize leading the way.

So, the Fracture discussion mademe think of something: Seal of Primordium

I kind of like Seal over Grip in Goblins, actually. I like that in R/G it comes down for 2, Goblins least-crowded CMC slot, and that it can come down pre-emptively under a lot of things before you hit your fourth and fifth turns, where you want to spend your mana doing as much crazy goblin shit as possible.

That said, when I ran R/G, I actually ran a 4/3 split in favor of Seal in sideboard, as I never thought the combo match was worthwhile and wanted under no circumstances to lose to Plague/Humility/Prison/Whatever.

FoulQ

05-27-2009, 05:27 PM

About the piledriver + frogtosser thing: Frogtosser gives piledriver a lot more playmates both because of the frogtosser itself and the absurd effect of 8 cost reducers. Now, I haven't tested frogtosser as much as you have, but you say yourself that you often are able to get siege-gang into play more often. I guess the "surprise" of R piledrivers is not as cool without haste, yes. That is true, but I still see many opponents shocked when they have 20 damage all of the sudden staring them down next turn. Though I see your point of only reducing his cost by 1 unlike goblins like ringleader and SGC.

Ectoplasm

05-27-2009, 05:29 PM

I, also, like the seal of primordium. Goblins is, at heart, a true tempo deck based around playing more shit faster than your opponent and seal plays right into this.
It might even help against dreadstill, forcing them to spend a FoW or search for another stifle, even though I think K grip will still reign supreme in this matchup.

scrumdogg

05-27-2009, 05:34 PM

Just a quick note that in a 3 color build (or 2 color with an off-splash dual) EE can also hit Plague/Ghostly Prison/Propaganda/whatever. It would also give yet another way to whack Enchantri (and friends). Gempalms seem to fall into the category of situationally good, which makes 2 seem like the correct number. You will see them relatively often & can search 'em up with a Mtron. Don't they also benefit from a Wort, being a fantastic card to recur if you have any pressure on the board?

Tacosnape

05-27-2009, 05:36 PM

Ectoplasm

05-27-2009, 05:36 PM

Don't they also benefit from a Wort, being a fantastic card to recur if you have any pressure on the board?

Yes, they are amazing in tandem with wort, I've won numerous games on the back of wort recurring an incinerator.
Then again, any game where wort stays alive for a turn or 2 counts as a win in my book but together with gempalm she just goes over the top. I love Wort :(

no_chi

05-27-2009, 09:05 PM

I'm also in favor of Wort. I have a singleton in my deck, and rarely board her out. She's amazing when recurring Weirdings or Incinerators when the opponent is running out of answers, or Matrons and Ringleaders when looking for answers or threats of your own.

How many slots do you have in your SB for anti-Plague stuff? and how do you split them? I currently have 3 Grips and 2 Tranquil Domains, but I might try replacing the Domains with Seals.

I'm still torn between Frogtossers and Ports. :frown:

ScatmanX

05-27-2009, 09:12 PM

To those who run Wort, try doing this: Every time you draw it, try to pretend it is a Ringleader or a Siege-Gang, and try to figure if it is not the same, or even better.

I guess that 5 Plague anwesers are ok. maybe a little to high, but depends how much do you face them. If it is a tutorable anweser, like R/G Liege, 3 is fine.

And I´ve been trying 23 lands with 4 Frogtosser, 4 Wastes and 2 Ports, and it´s roling perfectly. The deal is that,if you don´t draw Frogtosser, Port must be better than mountain. If you do draw them both, at least oponent will have one less mana. I wouldn´t run more than 2 Ports now, because I really just want to see 1.

Lejay

05-27-2009, 09:54 PM

To those who run Wort, try doing this: Every time you draw it, try to pretend it is a Ringleader

5 ringleaders FTW ! How could I never thought about it before ?

I just won a game by rishadaning 3 lands against bant. So yes, I want to play four of them.

leander?

05-28-2009, 05:32 AM

You mean you drew three Ports? When you need three ports to make it insane, he doesnt seam worth it since normally you'll just get one or maybe two.

Ectoplasm

05-28-2009, 08:12 AM

To those who run Wort, try doing this: Every time you draw it, try to pretend it is a Ringleader or a Siege-Gang, and try to figure if it is not the same, or even better.

That doesn't even make sense since nobody is cutting ringleaders for Wort, SGC's sure.
I run 2 SGC's and one Wort and I love her. She seems a bit win more at first, but compared to other win-more cards like kiki she actually does something to improve your board when she's a lone topdeck, and she also brings a beefy 3/3 body with evasion.

Lejay

05-28-2009, 09:05 AM

You mean you drew three Ports? When you need three ports to make it insane, he doesnt seam worth it since normally you'll just get one or maybe two.

Replace rishadaning by swords to plowsharing and lands by tarmogoyfs and maybe you'll realise how much your statement is a sophism.

leander?

05-28-2009, 09:09 AM

The problem is, Tarmogoyf isn't a land and Port isn't a Swords. And you can't even possibly compare them.
I'm not saying that Port is a bad card, but saying he is good becouse you won a game by porting three lands doesn't seem logical to me.

no_chi

05-28-2009, 09:50 AM

Tacosnape

05-28-2009, 10:13 AM

^ I have almost the exact same sentiments for Wort. Amazing topdeck, great in the long game, especially when assuming the control role in the game.

I'm currently testing the full set of Frogtossers, 3 Weirdings, 2 Incinerators, 1 Fanatic, and 1 Sharpshooter. I sometimes miss the Fanatics for killing opposing Confidants.

I've thought about trying the singleton Fanatic idea as well. Sometimes it's just randomly good to have, and I suppose there might be situations where I'd want to Matron for the little guy. I can't think of many of them exactly, but one never knows. And I'm still not a fan of Sharpshooter without running the maximum Fanatics.

Running less than four Weirdings makes me a bit skiddish, though. I love how seamlessly it flows into my curve once I start getting Chiefs/Tossers in play.

EDIT: I don't suppose anyone in RB has ever considered Death Pit Offering as a very narrow Plague solution, have they? It's probably worse than King/Auntie/Dralnu's/Just Ignoring Plague, but it has the weird ability to swing the game around when your opponent has you under double Plague. This intrigues me and makes me want to test it.

no_chi

05-28-2009, 12:24 PM

@ Taco:

What would you suggest? Switch the Shooter for the 4th Weirding?

How do your SBs look like? With all the Frogtossers, do you bother to put Squads in the board? Are they any good against non-combo decks?

ScatmanX

05-28-2009, 01:23 PM

^ I have almost the exact same sentiments for Wort. Amazing topdeck, great in the long game, especially when assuming the control role in the game.

I could say the exact same words about Siege-Gang.

"I run 2 SGC's and one Wort and I love her. She seems a bit win more at first, but compared to other win-more cards like kiki she actually does something to improve your board when she's a lone topdeck"
You don't compare Wort to Kiki. You do it to Siege-Gang.

@No Chi:
I, personally like Earwig quad. I'm testing 3 MD, and guess i'll kep that. They're not only good agains't combo. They give information about your oponent deck, wich is precious. Agains't a threat light deck, you can give your opponent a really headache, removing say, 3 Dreadnoughts, or 3 Goyfs, or 3 Plagues, or 3 Plowshers... and it is very often a 5/3 dude for 2 mana!

Citrus-God

05-28-2009, 01:37 PM

That doesn't even make sense since nobody is cutting ringleaders for Wort, SGC's sure.
I run 2 SGC's and one Wort and I love her. She seems a bit win more at first, but compared to other win-more cards like kiki she actually does something to improve your board when she's a lone topdeck, and she also brings a beefy 3/3 body with evasion.

She also doesn't die to a Pyroclasm. If the Pyroclasm wipes the board clean and Wort is all you have, just revive that SGC on your upkeep and cast it and regain board position.

no_chi

05-28-2009, 01:45 PM

@ScatmanX:

how do you fit the Squads main? what do you remove?:wink:

ScatmanX

05-28-2009, 02:14 PM

She also doesn't die to a Pyroclasm. If the Pyroclasm wipes the board clean and Wort is all you have, just revive that SGC on your upkeep and cast it and regain board position.

Who would cast puroclasm while you have a Wort in play, a Siege-Gang, and 5+ mana, without a counter backup? Seems like a really bad play.

@No Chi:
I have 3 Piledrivers, 1 Gempalm, 3 Weirdings, 0 Fanatics and 2 SGC. That opened me slots for 3 Squads, 1 Shooter and 1 Mad Auntie MD. Don't know if it is the best shot, but currently liking it.

Tacosnape

05-28-2009, 02:39 PM

I don't like the argument that Earwig Squad can get Plagues out of the opponent's deck. Plagues in an opponent's deck don't hurt you. The plague that's in their hand can hurt you. The plague that's on the board is definitely hurting you. Earwiq Squad doesn't fix either of these except by simply being large. The plagues in their library are the ones that aren't hurting you. If they didn't draw the Plague by the time I can drop Earwig Squad, why am I terribly worried about it?

Ectoplasm

05-28-2009, 02:56 PM

You don't compare Wort to Kiki. You do it to Siege-Gang.

Yeah, which is why I'm running her instead of a third SGC. I value both equally, they both have a huge target on their head saying 'next spotremoval, aim here' and they both win the game if left unchecked, just in different ways.

I think Wort fills a niche though, because she's simply better in drawn-out games when the other dudes start lacking, and worse in the midgame where those 3 chumpblockers/shocks could win the game for you and there's not alot of targets for her but overall I value them both equally.

That being said, goblins is a midgame deck so I understand the arguement of SGC vs Wort, but like I said I like to have the option of having Wort on the table since she can be incredible.

ScatmanX

05-28-2009, 03:38 PM

@ Ecto,
I get your arguments, and gues you're probably right to. There is no right or wrong here, just a matter of taste. I just wanted to create the debate.

@Taco,
If oponent doesen't have a Plague in hand, I'd much prefer him to have just 1 in the library than 4. Even if he drew 1 during the game, Squad will make sure he only drops 1.
You can drop Squad by turn 2. I guess that plagues matter all the game long, not only in the beginig.
After that, I really never said that he solves the Plague problem. He is just an undercost powerful goblin, that is good in several MU's.

little off:
Mad Auntie owned hard on MWS today.

Tacosnape

05-28-2009, 04:35 PM

@Taco,
If oponent doesen't have a Plague in hand, I'd much prefer him to have just 1 in the library than 4. Even if he drew 1 during the game, Squad will make sure he only drops 1.
You can drop Squad by turn 2.

You can drop Squad by turn two if you connect with a Lackey and drop either a Chief or a Frogtosser, yeah. But if I'm connecting with the Lackey on turn two in this scenario, I'm not in too bad of shape by having it just be Siege-Gang Commander, dropping SGC off Lackey, and then using my excess mana I'm not spending to play Earwig Squad to play Wasteland or Thoughtseize to slow the Plague assault, or Goblin Piledriver to try and just kill them on turn three. The best thing Earwig Squad has going for it here is that it's a 4/2 body under the Plague.

ScatmanX

05-28-2009, 04:46 PM

The best thing Earwig Squad has going for it here is that it's a 4/2 body under the Plague.

And prevent Plague #2,3 and 4.
The deck run SGC, Warchief and piledriver, so your play is also possible. I just added other routs to this, and other problems.

Off: congratz on the 3000 post. =]

Tacosnape

05-28-2009, 06:42 PM

And prevent Plague #2,3 and 4.
The deck run SGC, Warchief and piledriver, so your play is also possible. I just added other routs to this, and other problems.

Off: congratz on the 3000 post. =]

Didn't even notice. Thanks.:)

The problem with this plan is that if Earwig Squad gets removed, you've still got a Plague on the board you've got to fight through.

I guess I'm mostly curious where the space comes from for Earwiq Squad. I'm having a tough time telling myself I should run him when I already can't fit in four Drivers/Siege-Gangs and only two Incinerators. My sideboard's loaded up with Pyrokinesis, Thoughtseize, Relic, and presumably some slot to handle random problems. Pithing Needle or a splash for Seal of Primordium/Cleansing leads in my book, and Squad's still got a lot of others to compete with.

What else does he wreck? I admit I like the idea of him against Survival, but possibly less so than Pithing Needle. Hitting Enchantress's kill conditions would be awesome. What else is he strong against?

Citrus-God

05-28-2009, 07:07 PM

Who would cast puroclasm while you have a Wort in play, a Siege-Gang, and 5+ mana, without a counter backup? Seems like a really bad play.

Then I've proved my point? Wort is good. Negates cards like Pyroclasm to a good extent. Firesprout is most definitely and more likely a superior card at this point compared to Clasm. At least it can kill Wort.

ScatmanX

05-28-2009, 07:23 PM

Squad doesen't really "wreck" many thing. It's very good agains't combo, removing IGG/Tendrils/AdNauseam... but agains't everything else, he is solid. Giving It's the Fear only 1 wincon is really nice also. But apart from that, he just provide proactive defense agains't possible threat's/engines.

Now, to find space for him, it's really dificult. But try. The same way you did with EE...

About Wort, if you like it, play it. If you don't, don't. Its just a matter of taste.

Media314r8

05-28-2009, 09:35 PM

@ Pulse:

While I fantasize about blowing up double goyfs or double E plagues post-boards with pulse as much as the next player, I think only the latter is probable. The RGB casting cost is rough in the early-mid game, when we usually want to kill goyfs. I think it may be a suitable replacement to grips as a post-board out against plague, but it depends on your meta- if the plagues are coming from slower rock-type decks, I'd go with the pulses over plagues to live the 2-for-1 dream. However, I think the split second of K grip will be more relevant than the possibility of generating CA if you are encountering E plagues from the boards of b/X thresh.

Mantis

05-29-2009, 02:09 AM

Then I've proved my point? Wort is good. Negates cards like Pyroclasm to a good extent. Firesprout is most definitely and more likely a superior card at this point compared to Clasm. At least it can kill Wort.
You know what would suck, having a Lackey turn 1, it connects..... Wort. I can definately see situations where Wort is amazing but we already have Ringleader and SGC to Matron up if low on cards. Cards like Wort actually make you care about spot removal, I would almost always prefer to fetch Ringleader because of that. Goblins should avoid trying to do cute and just be a mean, lean killing killing machine with the most Efficient cards that always work and dont suck if board in Relic.

no_chi

05-29-2009, 06:38 AM

There have been times that I have connected with Lackey on turn 2, dropping Wort, with either a Weirding or an Incinerator in the 'yard. Doesn't happen very often, but that most likely would be GG. Obviously I'm in the 1 Wort/2 SCG camp.:tongue:

I will be joining a tournament tomorrow, and I still haven't decided on 'tossers and Ports. I will test the 'tosser version later on MWS and hopefully make a decision. There have been a few match-ups that I felt that I lacked removal maindeck, but some games were turned to blowouts thanks to the 'tossers.:wink:

GreenOne

05-29-2009, 09:45 AM

First, I'm testing different versions, mostly Rb with Frogtosser and without.

But I want to talk about a strange version. that takes advantage of a long forgotten card that in today's meta is becoming quite good: Mogg War Marshall.
That guy is incredible in doing many things:
- It's 2cc, which fits the curve nicely
- him alone makes Piledriver a reasonable threat
- It works wonders with Gempalm Incinerator
- It stalls tarmogoyfs like noone in monored, being a full 3 turns fog against a Goyf.
- It has somewhat a synergy with Siege Gang, but when we have a siege gang in play we've most likely won anyway.

That opens to a completely different approach against goyf.dec for monored decks: instead of MDing graveyard hate you can just outnumber your opponent, burying him on CA. I'm playing with 23 lands, 4 Gempalms, 3 Fanatic, 3 War Marshall, 1 Stingscourger, 2 SGC and the usual suspects.
Right now I'm 4-0 against UGW bant aggro and 3-0 against UGwb countertop.

4eak

05-29-2009, 10:31 AM

Mogg War Marshal

Everytime I see him, it is in some pile of mono red goblins/sligh junk. But, I have to admit, he can do some interesting trades, generating CA through his board advantage.

2cc for 3 permanents is really nothing to scoff at. He is a board generating junkie.

I have no idea what card I'd be willing to sacrifice to play this guy though.

peace,
4eak

GreenOne

05-29-2009, 10:51 AM

I have no idea what card I'd be willing to sacrifice to play this guy though.
Here's what I'm playing:
// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer

I've killed a good number of Goyfs and Tombstalkers with incinerator (with fanatic and War Marshal it becomes a lot better), so I took out Stingscourger, that can take the slot of Sharpshooter or a Tinkerer in the board.

4eak

05-29-2009, 01:00 PM

Aye, I know which cards could be removed, I mean to say, I don't think they'd be worth removing. Marshal's synergy isn't powerful enough to merit the slot. I'd be really hard pressed to pass on the silver bullet singletons for him. I'll test it, but I have a feeling Marshall is just another Goblin on the unused options list for the 3-4 available metaslots.

It definitely seems a worthier card in mono red builds. But, it is still competing for the 3rd SGC, Sharpshooter, and Tinkerer slot in my mind. It could replace Stingscourger in lots of ways though, as you'd be much less tempo reliant.

peace,
4eak

ScatmanX

05-29-2009, 01:23 PM

And with it instead of Stingscourers you have a much more dificult time agains't Dreadnought/Stalker/Terravore...
Don't know about that...

Shriekmaw

05-29-2009, 01:40 PM

If you going to play mogg war marshalls, I would like to see at least 1 skirk prospector and 1 sharpshooter. This way you have the ability to set up the combo kill. :)

Mantis

05-29-2009, 05:13 PM

Very interesting GreenOne. Maybe we should toss in a few Mad Aunties, that way the trade turns out insanely favorable. The problem again is space as its probably already hard to fit in the Mogg Warmarshalls.

But all crappy suggestions aside, it looks on the surface as though you have come up with one of the best Goblins list I have seen. Thanks for sharing it and Ill keep you updated on my testing.

ScatmanX

05-29-2009, 06:28 PM

The list does look good, really, but guess I still prefer, for monoRed, the list posted by avatara, lots of pages back. The shell is the same, but SB changed:

// Lands
15 [9E] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
3 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

With 25 lands, you can always do what you want. Mutavaults are insanely good. They don't care about mass removals, and pump gempalm/piledriver.
Seriously, playing with 25 lands makes the deck fell diferent. 4 Wastes, 3 ports, 3 mutas, and still gets to play with 15 mountains, like GreenOne's list.
For the side, I guess we both agree on Liege and Knesis, the rest is a matter of taste.

GreenOne

05-29-2009, 07:59 PM

With 25 lands, you can always do what you want. Mutavaults are insanely good. They don't care about mass removals, and pump gempalm/piledriver.
Seriously, playing with 25 lands makes the deck fell diferent. 4 Wastes, 3 ports, 3 mutas, and still gets to play with 15 mountains, like GreenOne's list.
For the side, I guess we both agree on Liege and Knesis, the rest is a matter of taste.
I get the reasoning behind the 25 lands, and I like it in decks with such a high curve.
What I don't get is:
- 4 Gempalm incinerators - this deck plays a lot less turn 1-2 drops so, unless you got a Lackey going, seems like you can't cycle the Gempalm in the early game. It surely does its thing from turn 4 on, so 3x is probably a better number in this deck.
- Sharpshooter - without the fanatics, why play this maindeck?

ScatmanX

05-29-2009, 09:09 PM

yeah, maybe 1 Gempalm could be the 4th Siege-Gang or something.
About the Sharpshooter, that is just my thing. There's too much goblins around here, and he is still great to kill confidants, shades, pushing dmg trough moat/propaganda... I always put 1 of them in my lists...

Tacosnape

05-30-2009, 12:51 AM

THEchubbymuffin

05-30-2009, 03:23 AM

I've yet to hear a good explanation in Mono-Red or any other list why Mutavault isn't just about the worst idea ever conceived. It's a manland that slightly pumps Gempalm, slightly pumps Piledriver if for some reason you aren't dropping out hasted threats to do this more efficiently, and just generally doesn't really seem to do a whole lot other than render Standstill even more awful against Goblins.

It survives sweepers? But I agree, it looks bad. But it does create a body when you have nothing to do with your mana. Which does happen, when you run out of steam and are just turning bodies for the kill.

But the #1 reason. Goblins has always been a tribal deck. Tribal lands just makes it cooler.

Nessaja

05-30-2009, 06:54 AM

I've yet to hear a good explanation in Mono-Red or any other list why Mutavault isn't just about the worst idea ever conceived. It's a manland that slightly pumps Gempalm, slightly pumps Piledriver if for some reason you aren't dropping out hasted threats to do this more efficiently, and just generally doesn't really seem to do a whole lot other than render Standstill even more awful against Goblins.

It starts with the idea that other then a Lackey and a Vial at 4-5 the scariest thing in goblins is curving out the mana base.

If you agree with that, running a high amount of lands is a good thing. Then, you only need so many mountains and you start looking at utility lands, an extra goblin that survives sweepers is a really good option.

4eak

05-30-2009, 09:30 AM

Only after you are already running 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Port should you even consider any other non-mountain lands. Essentially, Mutavault would be replacing Mountains when you are already running 8 colorless sources. This could be a huge strain on the mana base, and I think it would make the deck less consistent in several ways.

I'm not sure what is so important about the card anyways. We already have a great match against other tribal decks (whereby we could abuse their pump effects). We already have fantastic tools to play under Standstill (in fact, we often play better under standstill than our opponent). Synergy with Piledriver seems poor--as by the time I'm Piledriving, I'm usually already winning. And, I think there are just better choices for making Incinerator a better card. Let our other CA generators help us defeat board sweeping.

If Mutavault could be Ringleader'd then it might be a different story. Overall though, beyond destabilizing your mana-base, the card is fairly mana intensive itself, and I generally have better ways to be spending that mana.

peace,
4eak

Nessaja

05-30-2009, 10:05 AM

That sounds like a whole lot of theorycraft right there, have you even tried the card?

+Helps you curve out
+Helps with Piledriver/Incinerator - Yes, when you already got a board full of goblins this is neglectable, but Mutavault is a card that does good when you aren'twinning.
+Survives sweepers
+This is circle reasoning - but it also gives you something to do with your mana in topdeck mode when things aren't going good
+Great versus decks that try to lock you
+Good vs tribal decks

Honestly, in a mono red list, what would you rather run instead of it? It's not there instead of other lands, it's there instead of 3 of your spells with youl still got (4*Matron, 4* Lackey, 4* Ringleader, 4* Piledriver, 4* Incinerator, 3*SGC, 4* Warchief 14 mountains, 4 port 4 wasteland 4 Vial) 60-49 = 7 free spots to use. IMO Stingscourger is a must if you play mono red and after that I prefer Mutavault over the other options. Because it just offers that much more.

FoulQ

05-30-2009, 10:23 AM

Well, the fact that mutavault is mutavault isn't really that important, I think. It just gives you some utility lands while still allowing your deck to consisently curve out.

4eak

05-30-2009, 11:21 AM

@ Nessaja

That sounds like a whole lot of theorycraft right there, have you even tried the card?

Theorycraft, yet you've copied several of my points in your own argument. Be specific then, what do you think I irrelevantly made up?

Helps you curve out

Sure. It is a mana sink. I find Goblins curves out fairly well already, especially when you are playing full Ports and Wasteland. There are also many situations where I just don't activate this land because I don't want to chance losing my land drop for the turn.

If curving out is a problem in Mono Red lists, then just run a bit less land and more tempo cards like Stingscourger.

Helps with Piledriver/Incinerator

He's also expensive to activate. The turns I'm using Incerator or dropping/swinging with Piledriver are often mana intensive turns that often wouldn't allow me to activate this card.

Survives sweepers

Goblins has a pretty good games against decks which are sweeping the board. Our mana denial, abuse of Aether Vial, and constant CA generation gives us an even match against most control decks. This isn't a good enough reason.

Great versus decks that try to lock you

Which decks lock out goblins? The vast majority of those decks play Wasteland or Moat-like cards. Good answers to this card.

Krosan Grip (with careful use of fetchlands) is the best card against these decks. Discard is also stronger than Mutavault.

Good vs tribal decks

Which tribal deck needed help again? The only Tribal deck I fear is Counterslivers, and I'll grant you that one deck. The rest are completely in my favor, especially with Sharpshooter. This effect isn't necessary; we already have the upperhand.

Honestly, in a mono red list, what would you rather run instead of it?

If I was going to play Mono Red, and lose the options provided by another color, mainly for the sake of maximizing the stability of my mana base, I certainly wouldn't be watering it down with man-lands.

I think these cards deserve play before Mutavault:

Mogg Fanatic
Stingscourger
Goblin Tinkerer
Goblin Sharpshooter
Relic of Progenitus
Rishadan port
oh, and Mountain.

All of these cards are more appealing. I'll grant Mutavault gives us options, they just aren't as good as the options provided by the above list of silver bullets or the consistency provided by Fanatic, Mountains and mana denial.

This card isn't really curbing our weaknesses. If I'm relying on Mutavault, then I either should have mulliganed or I'm probably already going to lose.

peace,
4eak

Tacosnape

05-30-2009, 11:27 AM

I kind of agree with 4eak. And I think I'd actually rather have Mishra's Factory than Mutavault if I were going to run a manland. Factories do everything you listed except pump Incinerator/Driver. Factories block better. Factories dodge Plague. Factories get huge in multiples. etc.

That said, you can't ever have too many red sources when there's a Warchief in play and you're doing insane stuff. My manabase would be 4 Waste, 4 Port, and about 16 Mountains.

Nessaja

05-30-2009, 11:37 AM

@ Nessaja
Theorycraft, yet you've copied several of my points in your own argument. Be specific then, what do you think I irrelevantly made up?
Copied? I've been repeating these points ever since I added them in the deck. You name all the strong points of the card and then claim them to be insignificant, exactly what you're doing in this post as well. I ask; have you tested this? Are these point really as insignificant as you think.

If curving out is a problem in Mono Red lists, then just run a bit less land and more tempo cards like Stingscourger.
Sting is only a part of the mana curve when you hit a first turn lackey. But that wasn't what I meant - hitting 5 mana and having a land drop each turn is "curving out".

Goblins has a pretty good games against decks which are sweeping the board. Our mana denial, abuse of Aether Vial, and constant CA generation gives us an even match against most control decks. This isn't a good enough reason.
Really? My games tend to be quite different. Sweepers don't require much more then a simple Pyroclasm. Mana denial only brings you so far in that scenario. Mutavault isn't only a goblin that isn't effected by this sweeper, it also helps you build up again. You need to be hitting land drops if you want to recover from a sweep without Vial.

Which decks lock out goblins? The vast majority of those decks play Wasteland or Moat-like cards. Good answers to this card.
I was pretty much talking about landstill here. I believe Mutavaults are good in this matchup. As well as in the Merfolk matchup and the sliver matchup. Mutavault is never a dead card.

Krosan Grip (with careful use of fetchlands) is the best card against these decks. Discard is also stronger than Mutavault.
That's Rg

Which tribal deck needed help again? The only Tribal deck I fear is Counterslivers, and I'll grant you that one deck. The rest are completely in my favor, especially with Sharpshooter. This effect isn't necessary; we already have the upperhand.
I find Sharpshooter to be much more conditional then Mutavault. Besides, they have a completely different role. Sharpshooter isn't maindeck material as it quite simply blows in a whole lot of matchups, Mutavault is decent against a lot.

If I was going to play Mono Red, and lose the options provided by another color, mainly for the sake of maximizing the stability of my mana base, I certainly wouldn't be watering it down with man-lands.
Except you wouldn't be adding the Mutavaults instead of your resilent lands but rather in addition to. Completely moot point.

Mogg Fanatic
Stingscourger
Goblin Tinkerer
Goblin Sharpshooter
Relic of Progenitus
Rishadan port
oh, and Mountain.

All of these cards are more appealing. They're either silver bullets or improve consistency against all decks. I'll grant Mutavault gives us options, they just aren't as good.
Alright- so I already included Port Stingscourger and sufficient amount of mountains in the list. That leaves us with Tinkerer, Sharpshooter, Relic and Mogg Fanatic.

I believe that all of those cards provide you less flexibilty and utility then Mutavault. As well as the amount of MU's they do good in.

As for Factory, fair point. Though I do think the interaction with Piledriver and Gempalm is strong enough to choose mutavault over it.

4eak

05-30-2009, 12:18 PM

@ Nessaja

You name all the strong points of the card and then claim them to be insignificant, exactly what you're doing in this post as well.

Yes, I brought up its strengths and said, "these strengths aren't relevant enough".

It isn't like I've called the card outright useless, just not important enough to see play. I haven't found those strengths to contribute nearly as much as you have.

The point was that it sounds odd to accuse me of theorycrafting because we've basically outlined the same strengths (even if we have differing opinions on just how relevant those strengths might be).

Sting is only a part of the mana curve when you hit a first turn lackey.

I find Sting a bit more versatile than that.

But that wasn't what I meant - hitting 5 mana and having a land drop each turn is "curving out".

Getting to 5 lands in 5 turns isn't the only option. The more tempo-oriented cards you play, the more turns you'll buy yourself to draw cards and make those land drops.

I'd strike the "land drop each turn" and add "using all of your land resources each turn". Curving the deck out is about maximizing the mana resources you actually have each turn, not necessarily about making land drops or increasing your average mana pool.

Whether or not you move to 22 lands or not isn't the issue though. There are other ways to make sure you are tapping out each turn.

You still haven't addressed the point that in poorly curved circumstances, you often won't be activating a manland, even if the mana was available, simply because you couldn't afford to lose the mana source. If you are having trouble building up to drop a 3 or 4cc card, then you often won't be taking the risk of opening your mana-base up to creature removal in the first place.

You need to be hitting land drops if you want to recover from a sweep without Vial.

Make your land drops, but make them Mountains. You'll still be wanting every red source you can get to empty your hands through Warchief after a sweep.

I was pretty much talking about landstill here. I believe Mutavaults are good in this matchup. As well as in the Merfolk matchup and the sliver matchup. Mutavault is never a dead card.

Mutavault is just worse than mountain against decks running Wasteland. We have cycling, Vial, early dudes, and mana-denial which excels against their opposing man-land/standstill based strategies. We need to maintain our mana bases in these matches and pressure our opponent, not open ourselves up any further to their mana denial.

Merfolk doesn't need the help, and Slivers is already heavily in their favor. I'm failing to see where Mutavault was necessary.

That's Rg

That's the point. If you are going to lower the stability of Mono-Red by playing Man-lands in the first place, which is essentially the only good reason to play mono red, then you might as well just be splashing for a better answer than Mutavault.

I find Sharpshooter to be much more conditional then Mutavault. Besides, they have a completely different role. Sharpshooter isn't maindeck material as it quite simply blows in a whole lot of matchups, Mutavault is decent against a lot.

Again, you missed the principle of what I said. Our Tribal matches do not need help! Running Mutavault has no real effect in this match. We are either heavily favored (the vast majority of tribal decks) or heavily unfavored (slivers, where Mutavault still won't matter, as they'll still block us into oblivion).

Sharpshooter wins ground wars all over the place. He has high synergy with the removal in this deck. He's very main deckable.

Except you wouldn't be adding the Mutavaults instead of your resilent lands but rather in addition to. Completely moot point.

No. It isn't moot. If I went mono red, I would play Mountains before I would play Mutavaults. That was the whole point of going Mono Red in the first place. Otherwise, you should be splashing for another color.

Alright- so I already included Port Stingscourger and sufficient amount of mountains in the list.

Sufficient means you've got as many lands as you need to run, and all but 8 of them are Mountains. You are playing Mono Red to see Mountains, not Mutavaults.

peace,
4eak

Nessaja

05-30-2009, 06:22 PM

@ Nessaja
The point was that it sounds odd to accuse me of theorycrafting because we've basically outlined the same strengths (even if we have differing opinions on just how relevant those strengths might be).
I stated that it sounds like you are theorycrafting about the relevance of the strengths we both summed up. How many times does that need to be repeated.

I find Sting a bit more versatile than that.
He is, but not as a 2 drop.

I'd strike the "land drop each turn" and add "using all of your land resources each turn". Curving the deck out is about maximizing the mana resources you actually have each turn, not necessarily about making land drops or increasing your average mana pool.
That's a given, but that starts with having enough lands to make your drops. Mutavault is an important part of "using your resources" after you've emptied your hand.

You still haven't addressed the point that in poorly curved circumstances, you often won't be activating a manland, even if the mana was available, simply because you couldn't afford to lose the mana source. If you are having trouble building up to drop a 3 or 4cc card, then you often won't be taking the risk of opening your mana-base up to creature removal in the first place.
Good thing that nobody is forcing you to activate the manland in a situation where you cannot miss him. I do not believe that dropping a manland automatically means that you're attacking with it every turn. If you do then you're using it wrong. If someone is keeping 1 w open to stop a mutavault then I sure won't be attacking with it if I don't have a sufficient amount of lands in my hand as a backup. If I do, I'd gladly take 1 of their 4 removal spells

Make your land drops, but make them Mountains. You'll still be wanting every red source you can get to empty your hands through Warchief after a sweep.
I'd much rather have a Mutavault lategame then a Mountain. You assume luxury of Warchief. What if you do not have 4+ cards in your hand after a sweep. If you can force your opponent to make a sweep while still have a Warchief and several other goblins in your hand then you'll probably win either way.

Mutavault is just worse than mountain against decks running Wasteland. We have cycling, Vial, early dudes, and mana-denial which excels against their opposing man-land/standstill based strategies. We need to maintain our mana bases in these matches and pressure our opponent, not open ourselves up any further to their mana denial.
You keep assuming that the Mutavaults come instead of mountains. How did you ever get that impression.

Merfolk doesn't need the help, and Slivers is already heavily in their favor. I'm failing to see where Mutavault was necessary.
It's not a sideboard card, quit approaching it as if it is. It's included maindeck because it's a versatile utility card that works against every non-combo deck. It's not included to help any specific matchups. That it's specifically good in certain matchups is just icing on the cake.

That's the point. If you are going to lower the stability of Mono-Red by playing Man-lands in the first place, which is essentially the only good reason to play mono red, then you might as well just be splashing for a better answer than Mutavault.
You're not opening yourself up the Stifle. Also, adding Mutavaults doesn't make your deck any less stable. If the Mutavaults were to replace lands I'd agree, but as I said before you aren't switching Mutavaults for normal lands. If anything your manabase becomes more stable by adding Mutavaults in addition to your normal land base. Could you please explain to me how adding more lands to a deck is making the mana base less stable?

Sharpshooter wins ground wars all over the place. He has high synergy with the removal in this deck. He's very main deckable.
Then go ahead and maindeck Sharpshooter, I'm not even having that discussion. Seriously.

no_chi

05-30-2009, 09:15 PM

Hi. I played with my Rbg Goblins in a 15-man Legacy tournament yesterday, and luckily placed 1st.:cool:

Here's my list:

Maindeck
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Rishadan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Mogg Fanatic

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

SB
3 Shattering Spree (must be Chalice of the Void, but I don't have any yet)
3 Krosan Grip
3 Earwig Squad (for combo decks, since I do not have CotV's)
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (meta choice)
1 Goblin Piledriver

I tested the deck with both Frogtosser and Port in, and it went well. The Ports were, as usual, instrumental in denying mana for my opponents and slowing them down. The Frogtossers were a huge tempo boost, helping me overwhelm my opponents with 1-2 mana Ringleaders, and casting the Goblins I draw.

The decks I faced were, in order: Faerie Stompy (2-0), Uw Painter (1-1-1), Merfolk (2-0), CounterTop (ID), Uw Painter (same deck, 2-0), Merfolk (same deck, 2-0), and Bgw Rock (2-0). I was lucky enough that I wasn't paired with any of the 3 ANT decks present that day. MVP's for the blue decks were Piledrivers and Ports, plus Sharpshooter for the Merfolk. Warren Weirding won me the game vs Bgw Rock.

4eak

05-30-2009, 11:04 PM

@ Nessaja

I stated that it sounds like you are theorycrafting about the relevance of the strengths we both summed up. How many times does that need to be repeated.

We've had to clarify what you meant because that isn't what you said the first time. You basically said, "You made that pile of shit up" in your first post, so don't expect me not to clarify what you meant by it, especially since you agreed on several points.

Don't act like you're repeating yourself. Your first statement was ironic and perhaps hypocritical, while your above statement isn't ambiguous at all.

That's a given, but that starts with having enough lands to make your drops.

I am not implying you shouldn't be running land to make drops. I'm saying there are others options than Mutavault in Mono Red if you aren't maximizing your land resources each turn. You can run between 22 and 25 lands pretty effectively; you just need to adjust your mana cost curve and use of tempo cards to fit.

Stay with 25 by all means. Run mountains though.

If you can force your opponent to make a sweep while still have a Warchief and several other goblins in your hand then you'll probably win either way.

That is just a part of playing Goblins correctly. Against board sweeping, you'll often be slow rolling your opponent and making sure you don't over extend. Manlands are not necessary to having a good strategy and a good game against heavy control decks.

If control gave me more problems (as you said it does for you), then I'd rather splash than play Mutavaults. I'd rather have the answers provided by black and/or green than play Mutavault.

It's not a sideboard card, quit approaching it as if it is. It's included maindeck because it's a versatile utility card that works against every non-combo deck. It's not included to help any specific matchups. That it's specifically good in certain matchups is just icing on the cake

We agreed on most of the strengths of the card, but we've disagreed on how important those strengths might be. We were talking about tribal matchups specifically in this section, and you certainly tried to make that one of the selling points of this card. You "included [mutavault] to help...specific matchups". I'm denying the claim that the strengths Mutavault has against opposing tribal decks form a good selling point. They're nice, but not relevant. If you don't care, then you shouldn't have brought up 'tribal decks' as one of the strengths.

You keep assuming that the Mutavaults come instead of mountains. How did you ever get that impression.

Mutavaults will be used at the cost of either lands or Goblins. I gave you a list of each which I think are better than Mutavault. You denied they were, but obviously you know I'm considering the replacement any of those cards on the list, not just mountains.

I keep pointing to Mountain > Mutavault because you are playing a Mono Red list. It gives you the option to either keep the same land count and maximizing your odds of having red in play or curving down for more tempo oriented Goblins. I'm saying running Mutavault misses the entire point of going Mono Red in the first place. You want red sources, not Mutavault. And, if you think you don't need more Red sources, then you might as well just splash.

You're not opening yourself up the Stifle. Also, adding Mutavaults doesn't make your deck any less stable....Could you please explain to me how adding more lands to a deck is making the mana base less stable?

It makes you less stable than if you just ran Mountains. Just run 16 or 17 Mountains and some Goblins instead of playing Mutavault. That mana color curve will definitely be more stable, more difficult to disrupt, and still quite capable of curving out (by both of our definitions).

Anyways, and oddly enough, I'd argue part of the reason we're having our conversation about Mutavault is because we disagree on Mogg Fanatic.

Mogg Fanatic does many of the roles of Mutavault. Let's go through our list. He fills in the gaps of unused mana to help you curve out the deck, and indirectly through the tempo he creates can draw you into more land. Against decks that play creatures, he opens many lines of play, often putting you in stronger board positions so that you won't be in topdeck mode in the first place. He doesn't survive sweepers, but he does shoot to the face, which isn't all that bad against decks which are trying to "lock us out". He synergizes really well with Lackey, Incinerator, Piledriver, and that one card you won't talk about (you know the one, "arpshooterShay"). Unlike Mutavault, he has more ways to help you dictate the board as you can force a creature to take damage from Fanatic, but not with Mutavault. Oh, and let us not forget, he is awesome against Tribal decks.

peace,
4eak

Nessaja

05-31-2009, 01:50 PM

@ Nessaja
We've had to clarify what you meant because that isn't what you said the first time. You basically said, "You made that pile of shit up" in your first post, so don't expect me not to clarify what you meant by it, especially since you agreed on several points.
Don't act like you're repeating yourself. Your first statement was ironic and perhaps hypocritical, while your above statement isn't ambiguous at all.
Don't assume for one moment that I'm not still standing by my old statement. I have a hard time believing your conclusions since many of them are the opposite of mine. The question now would be why haven't you answered the question, did you even test it?

I am not implying you shouldn't be running land to make drops. I'm saying there are others options than Mutavault in Mono Red if you aren't maximizing your land resources each turn. You can run between 22 and 25 lands pretty effectively; you just need to adjust your mana cost curve and use of tempo cards to fit.

Stay with 25 by all means. Run mountains though.
No, I've tried that, tested that. I dislike it. A mountain can be a dead card on many occasions. A Mutavault never is.

That is just a part of playing Goblins correctly. Against board sweeping, you'll often be slow rolling your opponent and making sure you don't over extend. Manlands are not necessary to having a good strategy and a good game against heavy control decks.
Take the Zoo or Tempo Thresh matchup, I would really like to know how you're dealing with Zoo/TT that boarded in Pyroclasms, "slowroll" Zoo/TT? Really? They're not going to sweep the board if you don't have any threats on the table. A scenario with Warchief and several other goblins in your hand (without Ringleader) is just unrealistic.

If control gave me more problems (as you said it does for you), then I'd rather splash than play Mutavaults. I'd rather have the answers provided by black and/or green than play Mutavault.
Huh? I didn't say that... Could you stop with putting words in my mouth? It's not the first time you do it. You assume that I put Mutavault in to strengthen the Tribal matchup, you assume that I put Mutavault in to strengthen the control matchup, you assume that he's there to cover some sort of weakness. Just because he's specifically strong in certain matchups does not mean that he's in the deck because of that. Piledriver isn't in the deck because he rocks Merfolk either, yet, he does.

Mutavault is included maindeck because he's never a dead card, fits with the rest of the gameplan, helps you curve out (even after emptying your hand), survives sweepers and has synergy with the rest of the deck.

Mutavaults will be used at the cost of either lands or Goblins. I gave you a list of each which I think are better than Mutavault. You denied they were, but obviously you know I'm considering the replacement any of those cards on the list, not just mountains.
When I specifically give a list of cards I assume maindeckedand and you still mention Mountains after that you're just trying to straight out annoy me. Mutavaults have never taken up the spot of Mountains and I never claimed otherwise.

I keep pointing to Mountain > Mutavault because you are playing a Mono Red list. It gives you the option to either keep the same land count and maximizing your odds of having red in play or curving down for more tempo oriented Goblins. I'm saying running Mutavault misses the entire point of going Mono Red in the first place. You want red sources, not Mutavault. And, if you think you don't need more Red sources, then you might as well just splash.
So let me get this straight what you say is this:

Mono Red Goblins (60 cards)
22-23 Base Lands
4 Vial
33-34 Spells

Mono Red Goblins (60 Cards)
22-23 Base Lands
4 Vial
30-31 Spells
3 Mutavault

You're telling me that even though the amount of red sources is entirely unchanged I still need more red sources in the scenario where I do add Mutavualt but I don't need more red sources when I don't add Mutavault. 4eak, I'm sure you're a nice person and all but at the moment, you're quite simply a really tiresome person to argue with, it's quite simply getting annoying at this point.

Anyways, and oddly enough, I'd argue part of the reason we're having our conversation about Mutavault is because we disagree on Mogg Fanatic.
That's fair.

Mogg Fanatic does many of the roles of Mutavault. Let's go through our list.
...

...
I'm sorry but... from everything you listed, Mutavault isn't anything like Mogg Fanatic. They have completely different roles for the deck. Completely different times when their use is the best as well.

4eak

06-01-2009, 07:33 AM

@ Nessaja

did you even test it?

Absolutely, your list in fact. And, I definitely found good uses for the card. I don't think it is as good as the other options I've listed.

I have a hard time believing your conclusions since many of them are the opposite of mine.

That's the funny part about arguments -- we both usually think the other person is wrong. Even though I've held the above thought about your conclusions, I haven't called your argument mere theorycraft or said you were a tiresome person.

Remember: you don't have to debate. If you find it tiresome, then don't worry about it. Keep your tech and you can prove your point in other ways.

A mountain can be a dead card on many occasions. A Mutavault never is.

It could be a mistake to generalize in this instance. Mutavault can easily be made dead, via Wasteland, creature removal or lock pieces like Moat. There are plenty of cases where I prefer having the less vulnerable and red producing mountain to Mutavault, especially when I'm sacrificing the splash.

When I specifically give a list of cards I assume maindeckedand and you still mention Mountains after that you're just trying to straight out annoy me. Mutavaults have never taken up the spot of Mountains and I never claimed otherwise.

Anytime you choose one card over another, you are replacing it. I argued that each of the cards, including mountain, had a competitive advantage over Mutavault (even in Mono Red lists).

I have driven Mountain concern in particular simply because I think you have replaced a mountain in your list. If Mutavaults weren't in your decklist, then you'd have 23 lands. 23 is a little low, but depending on the metagame acceptable given Stingscourger's tempo. If I was playing Mono Red, I would play 16-17 Mountains and the full ports/waste. Maximizing red sources is the point of going Mono Red, and given the way you've built your Mono Red list, I think you are replacing at least one Mountain.

Take the Zoo or Tempo Thresh matchup, I would really like to know how you're dealing with Zoo/TT that boarded in Pyroclasms, "slowroll" Zoo/TT?

I still prefer the Mountain against Tempo Thresh in the first place. I want to minimize the chances they'll be denying me mana. I can often maintain tempo parity with them, even through sweepers, if I have a proper mana base to generate CA, exercise my own mana-denial, abuse Vial, Lackey, and control the board.

I think you've also overestimated how many Zoo decks are boarding in Pyroclasm. Many Zoo decks don't run a sweeper at all. For the ones that do, I'll grant you, Mutavault can be nice.

Against the majority of decks running board sweepers, which are generally control decks, I still prefer Mountain, Splashing, and other options I've provided.

You're telling me that even though the amount of red sources is entirely unchanged I still need more red sources in the scenario where I do add Mutavualt but I don't need more red sources when I don't add Mutavault.

Almost. Remember that the key point to playing Mono Red is maximizing your Red sources (either by running a ton of tempo, more red sources, and/or limiting the effects of mana denial).

First of all, I deny that the red sources have not changed. The red sources should scale with the number of tempo cards in your deck (of which Mutavault is not one). The more tempo-oriented cards you play (Fanatic/Sting and silver bullets), the lower your red count can be, as those tempo cards buy you time to curve out. When you remove tempo cards, then you should increase your red sources. You could easily benefit from more red sources given only a medium number of tempo/silver bullet slots. This leads me to the second issue.

You've sacrificed your ability to play a second color not just to avoid Stifle, but to also avoid the card which is 2.3 times more common than Stifle: Wasteland. In addition, you've sacrificed the splashes because you want to maximize your red sources when you go Mono Red. One of the strengths of going Mono Red is not being as bottle-necked by having limited red sources (which can be serious loss in tempo, board control, and arguably card advantage over time). Mono Red also gives you the option to scale down with increased tempo cards. You have not chosen these options though.

Instead, you've chosen a card that is antithetical to the aims of playing Mono Red. You aren't maximizing red sources like you should. You weaken your mana base to Wasteland, you open yourself up to creature removal on your mana base. You've not scaled your tempo cards to properly curve out. As your mana base isn't all that much better off than those who splash, you're essentially foregoing what splashing colors has to offer you for Mutavaults.

Give me mountains, more tempo, or give me a splash.

I'm sorry but... from everything you listed, Mutavault isn't anything like Mogg Fanatic. They have completely different roles for the deck. Completely different times when their use is the best as well.

I should have said: Mogg fanatic is worth Mutavault's slot, and that's because he fulfills these roles. Many of Mutavaults roles are covered by Mogg fanatic though.

peace,
4eak

Ectoplasm

06-01-2009, 08:05 AM

Without trying to sound like an asshole, if any of you wants to 'prove' anything beyond a shadow of doubt, post results instead of theorycraft :D
Show percentages, playtest gauntlets, top 8's etc because this thread is degenerating into a 'I'm right you're wrong' kind of shitfest at a rapid pace and at least results would be interesting to read.

Nessaja

06-01-2009, 04:30 PM

Your not sounding like an asshole, I agree with you.

Problem is that when you're taking previous (established) results you put a halt to all innovation. Also note that we're talking about a difference of 3 cards in the maindeck. How much 3 cards will affect the outcome is also the question... we're really talking about micromanagement and details here. On MWS testing, I've atleast noticed significantly less mana screw, both ways, because Mutavaults have a dual function.

As for 4eak, I think I do reserve the right to call someone tiresome when they keep bringing up the same points or even put words in my mouth. It's more then clear to me by now that it isn't a misunderstanding but really just a fundamental difference of opinion about how you achieve your goals with goblins. That's fine, everyone can decide on their own. I think we pretty much beat this to dead anyway.

DomoKun

06-02-2009, 01:19 PM

Hi all the sourcers here, I am new to this forum and would like some opinion about my Goblin build. By the way, I am from Singapore and legacy meta here is very small (max 15ppl)due to T2 more favorable and card accessibility here.

RGB build

Lands:
4 X mountains
1 X swamp
2 x Taiga
2 x Badlands
3 x Rishadan Ports
4 x Wasteland
3 x Bloodstained Mire
3 x Wooded Foothills

Goblins:
4 x Goblin Lackey
4 X Goblin Ringleader
4 X Goblin Warchief
4 x Goblin Matron
4 x Goblin Piledriver
2 X Siege Gang Commander
1 x Goblin Wizard
1 x Goblin Sharpshooter
1 X Lightning crafter
2 x Gempalm Incinerator
1 X Goblin Tinkerer

Spells:
3 X thoughtseize
3 x warren Weirdling

Artifact:
4 X Aether Vials

SB:
3 x Krosan Grip
3 X perish ( becos of Prog thres and zoo with alot of green creatures)
3 x Pyrokinesis
3 x Relic
1 x Wort Boggart Auntie
1 x Goblin King
1 x Earwig squad ( feel like cutting for one more grips)

Also, is it a normal to SB 8-9 cards against a CB top type of decks. I felt i have a badmatchup against Goyfsligh and Burn with volcanic fallout maindeck.

Against CBtop:
-1 sharpshooter
-1 Goblin Wizard
-2 gempalm
-3 Warren weirdling
-1 ringleader

+3 relic
+3 grips
+ 3 perish

Pls advise me if i have done wrong with the SBing but this list i have been doing quite consistently at top 4 except recent meta with alot of burn, goyf sligh and zoo.

Thank you for your time for suggesting cheers.

ScatmanX

06-02-2009, 02:10 PM

Welcome to the Source!

On the deck:
- Before I play Goblin King, in a Rgb version, I'd play Mad Auntie.
- I don't think that that goblin toolbox is healthy for the deck. Instead, add Fanatics, Frogtosser, or another one.
- Don't fear Counter/Top. You can easyly play around it with Lackey/ Vial and Warchief/Matron/Ringleader/Piledriver.
- Again'st C/T, don't side out Warren's. They have few creatures on the deck, and Warren's is amazing.

-Agains Burn/Goyf Sligh/Zoo, I'd recommend Challice of the Void, or if you can't get those, Dragons Claw would be nice either.

-How's Goblin Wizard? I'd suggest you to remove it, but remembered I never tested. But seems it'sonly good when you already have lots of cards/mana/control of the game.

DomoKun

06-02-2009, 02:46 PM

Hi ScatmanX,

Thx u for the prompt reply and warm welcome. Really appreciate the sharing with your knowledge.

I dun know , i felt i needed the chalice but it will not be good if 4 of are not included in the SB. The perish has been really inconsistent. Also after SB out, i felt the gobs deck has became extremely diluted.

I have won numerous matchup with control using the thoughtseize. The Goblin wizard is very good against dragon stompy acting as the fifth vial, good synergy with warchief and powerful if opponent splashing white for plow and vindicate. Usually against non-white i often side out.

After much thought before ur reply, i think i will change my sb to something like this:

4 x Chalice of the void
3 x krosan Grip
1 x wort boggart auntie
3 x relic
3 x pyrokinesis
1 x warren weirdling

can u share, how would u sb using my decklist if u meet

A. goyf sligh, burn
B. Andy Probasco CB/top list and landstill.

Sorry for the inconvenience caused. Cheers man

ScatmanX

06-02-2009, 04:45 PM

The way you SB, you take 9 goblins out, and put 9 non-goblins in, summing up to 16+22 non-gobbs, wich is bad. Would put Wizardon the SB, once he's use is very limited, switching with Wort.
About the Sbing:

Burn:
+4Chalice of the Void
-3Weirdings, -1Tinker (depending on burn's build)
That's preety much you can do.

Zoo:
+ 4 x Chalice of the void, +3 x relic, + 3 x pyrokinesis;
- 3 Thoughtseize, -1 Tinkerer, - 1 Wizard, -2 Ringleader, -1 Crafter, -2 Piladriver.
If you're not on the play, don't pu Chalice in and keep the Piledrivers and Ringleaders.
Don't know if siding in Relics is the way to go though...

I'm not familiarized with Probasco's List so,
Landstill

+3 Krosan Grip, +1 Wort;
-3 Warren's Weirdings, -1 Gempalm.

If he uses Loam or Crubicle of Worlds, consider Relics over 1 shooter, 1 gempalm, 1 Ringleader.

Don't know if these are the best options, but guess that Crafter and Seize are good here. Try staying with 1 gempalm to kill factory under standstill (I know, ports+wastes, but even so...)

Gekoratel

06-02-2009, 05:09 PM

I wouldn't board out Warren Wierding against Probasco blue since their only way of surviving to the late game is Goyf and Clasm effects. Wierding isn't an answer to Sower of Temptation but you still have Gempalm for him.

For your list I'd take out -1 Goblin Wizard, -1 Goblin Sharpshooter, -1 Lightning Crafter, -1 Gempalm. For a standard list they should be boarding out Mogg Fanatics.

DomoKun

06-03-2009, 12:51 AM

Okie, thx for the advice and sharing.

Just wondering, against countertop or thres, relic is not needed? Sometimes I felt the 4 x grip shld be able to do the job. But a failed attempt of weirdling may warren faster dmg for the goyf. what is the thought here?

I take ur advice for the switch between wort and wizard.

The sower seem pestering when they have shackles effect on. it seem that the deck is so tight and any attempt of sbing out gobs will make the assault even worse.

@Scatmanx: Generally, andy's deck has mainboard: shackles, sower, grip, pithing, spell snare. SB: Duress, firespout, BEB.

Once again thx for the time spent in sharing. Have a nice day.

FoulQ

06-03-2009, 08:05 AM

A minor thing, but I wouldn't side out the lone tinkerer, because then you have absolutely no out to a resolved ensnaring bridge. There is enough dead stuff like sharpshooter that should be sided out first. EDIT: I am talking about the burn matchup here, responding to ScatmanX's boarding plans.

Personally I wouldn't even board in grips against Probasco. Counterbalance is not that much of a problem. Pithing Needle, oh well? EE can only do so much and they will probably activate right away. That leaves Vedalken Shackles, which I solve by running 2 Tin Street Hooligan sideboard (great against goblins, merfolk, jitte decks, shackles decks, chalice stompy decks, storm combo).

My own sideboard

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void (or comparable graveyard hate)
3 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Tin Street Hooligan

3 Grip + 2 EE gives a strong plague fighting weapon, and EE can have its uses in other places. Chalice is definitely awesome. You could drop 2 EE for 2 Pyrostatic Pillar, I guess, if you are interested in increasing that matchup, and maybe a TSH for one too. But so far 2 sb TSH and 1 md TSH has been very awesome for me. I also personally think perish is cool but haven't tested it really.

That's the reason I like RBG. You get access to TSH/Grip as well as Weirding, and to top it off Engineered Explosives which is a great versatile sideboard answer.

With my sideboard and list I personally board something like this against the decks:

BURN
+4 Chalice
-3 Weirding, -1 Stingscourger

ZOO (on the play)
+4 Chalice, +2 EE, +2 TSH (because of jitte)
-8 Depends

ZOO (on the draw)
+2 EE, +2 TSH
-4 Depends

PROBASCO
+2 TSH (possibly +2 EE)
-X Fanatic

The Grim Reaper

06-03-2009, 09:55 AM

A minor thing, but I wouldn't side out the lone tinkerer, because then you have absolutely no out to a resolved ensnaring bridge. There is enough dead stuff like sharpshooter that should be sided out first.

Which competitive deck runs Ensnaring Bridge again? I used to run 1x Tin Street Hooligan or Goblin Tinkerer main deck, but lately I've been running without it and doing just fine. Of course I still keep 4x Grips and 1x Tinkerer/TSH in the sideboard, but honestly you don't really need artifact removal main deck.

In most situations where an opponent drops a troublesome artifact, you either A) Don't have the singleton goblin, B) Don't have a Matron, or C) Already played a Matron and fetched something more useful. I can't begin to count the number of times I've had dead artifact removal goblins in my hand. Try cutting it - I guarantee you won't miss it.

4eak

06-03-2009, 11:30 AM

Ensnaring Bridge isn't usually the concern. Here's a list of targets which I see often enough:

Vedalken Shackles
Aether Vial (opposing ones)
Pithing Needle
Powder Keg
Engineered Explosives
Nevi's Disk
Dreadnought
Chalice
Crucible of Worlds
Jitte
SoFI
Smokestack
Top (at the very least, an active tinkerer prevents the card from tapping)
Mox Diamond
LED
Chrome Mox
Activated Mishra's Factory
Isochron Scepter
Trinisphere

Legacy is largely defined by its artifacts. A number of the above cards are quite dangerous. Even the ability to hit artifact mana sources can easily be life or death against some of our worst matchups. Maindeck artifact hate wins a ton of games you otherwise wouldn't be able to win.

peace,
4eak

FoulQ

06-03-2009, 11:35 AM

Pretty funny this all came about on a misunderstanding. I was talking specifically about the burn matchup. About not boarding tinkerer out against burn.

Burn:
+4Chalice of the Void
-3Weirdings, -1Tinker (depending on burn's build)
That's preety much you can do.

Sorry for not clarifying that, I was specifically talking about not boarding out tinkerer games 2/3 against burn. And whether or not you agree if it is a "real deck," it is present. I would not say "depending on burn's build" because you cannot reliably say whether they board in ensnaring bridges. Might as well play it safe and board out the multitude of other dead cards, like I said before: sharpshooter.

DomoKun

06-03-2009, 11:49 AM

Alright, thx for all the knowlegeable info.

As u see, My fanatics slot has been my thoughtseize. So the siding has changed as compared to others. Generally, even deck that play goyf, are those relic not needed for them since weirdling can do the job?

I agree the lone tinkerer or TSH is merely there for silver bullet but it would be nice in random games that they help.

Im think should I increase my grips to 4 or relic to 4, what is the ideal ratio for both?

Am i losing out against burn because of thoughtseize or shld i bring the fanatic back? I juz felt that pyrokinesis is able to do the job as fanatic.

Anyway more sharing and critic to improve my boarding kill, cheers.:smile:

ScatmanX

06-03-2009, 01:20 PM

"Might as well play it safe and board out the multitude of other dead cards, like I said before: sharpshooter."
Burn build's I see around qhere I play don't have Ensnaring Bridges, thats why it depends on the build. Also, if it is Bubble burn, or Ankh Burn, you should keep Tinker aswell.

And yes, Sharpshootr would only be kind of useful if he ran Fanatics, so you're right here.

FoulQ

06-03-2009, 04:29 PM

People pick up new cards and change their sideboards all the time. Why even risk it when somebody is trying out new "ensnaring bridge tech?" A card as dead as sharpshooter should definitely be boarded out first. Yes, sharpshooter can beat things like random hellspark elementals that might pop out, but that card doesn't shut you down like ensnaring bridge would. Might as well have an out to a potential MOAT (basically) instead of risking it and keeping a card like sharpshooter in instead.

ScatmanX

06-05-2009, 11:49 AM

So, I have a big tournament next week, and have no Idea about the meta.
I´m playng goblins (my only deck for real), but don’t know if MonoRed or Rb.
The deal is, I would play Rb, but I don’t have all the cards (lands) Do you guys think a list with 3 Weirdings, 3 Frogtosser, 1 Mad Auntie, could be supported by 4 Badland, 4 Bloodstained Mire and 1 Wooded Foothills? That’s only 9 sources, and in testing now, it is looking a little short.
The MonoR list, in the other hand, is 100% complete (with 3xStingscourer, 3xRelics and +1xPiledriver in place of those cards).

Also, my SB is like this:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyroknesis
3xRed Elemental Blast
2x Pirostatic Pillar
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Goblin Tinkerer

The 3 other Relics are MD. I like REB too much, but guess that going to 2 isn´t all that bad. Could cut the random Needle, possibly fot the 4th Knesis. Don’t like going without Combo hate, so the 6 (9 if you count REB) devoted to it.

Last thing: do you guys think Goblin Pyromancer deserves a slot MD or SB? I really wanted to try him, but never really had the guts. Also, would the champ be the best time to try it?
Thanks in advanced for comments.

true story

06-05-2009, 12:20 PM

I don't know how many lands you're running, but after playing 21 for a year or more, 23 is really a good number. If you're gonna play Rb I would suggest at least another Foothill and 1 basic swamp. Fetching that 1 Swamp can be huge against decks that play Wasteland.(Fuck off in advance to all the haters) I wouldn't run Pyromancer maindeck, maybe in the board for mirror match. If you're going play in a big tourney I wouldn't experiament(spelling?) just play cards you know work and try to win. As far as the board goes why run 1 Needle? What good is 1 really gonna do?

ScatmanX

06-05-2009, 12:33 PM

both lists havs 23 lands. The deal is, I don't have more Foothills, and am not going to but them until past october.
The needle is really random. Jus because I coudn't find anything to put in instead.
I could, though, buy 2 or 3 Boartusk Liege, in place of 1 needle, 1 REB, and maybe tinker...

true story

06-05-2009, 12:52 PM

I don't think not having additional fetches will hurt much. I only run 6, and 3 Badlands(don't own a 4th) and 1 swamp and I haven't had many problems at all. I'd prolly drop the Needle and run another Pillar.

FoulQ

06-05-2009, 01:02 PM

Rather insignificant, but I'd run x1 tormod's crypt in sideboard over the last relic. You don't want 4 relics against tarmogoyf anyways. Tormod's will then get around loam playing chalice at 1, as well as ichorid playing needle/therapy. And in my opinion there aren't very many other popular decks that deserve sideboard graveyard hate (though md can be cool like you are playing).

I ran basic swamp for awhile in Rb. It's good sometimes, but sometimes it royally screwed me (this was a list without frogtosser). Also, basic swamp doesn't play very friendly with frogtosser. But if you are running 3 frogtosser 3 weirding it might be necessary, especially in an unknown meta.

Also IMO blasts are terrible in this deck and I'd remove them if I were you, but apparently you love them. Your choice.

To end, it sounds like you are more comfortable with the monored list at the moment. I'd play with whatever you feel more comfortable with.

ScatmanX

06-05-2009, 01:15 PM

How would you play the Sb then?
I like REB´s because every top8 I see, there are like 16-24 FoWs in it, and it can nail a ponder/brainstorm/mystical tutor from TES/AdNauseam, that gives more chance agains't them. (I realise I have to miss my 1st drop T1, but if he combos 2nd, 3rd turn, having a Lackey on the Battlefield would'nt mean anything)
(talking to my friend that would lend me the Bloodstained Mire´s, he is probably lending then to someone else so, MonoR here we go!)

true story

06-05-2009, 01:25 PM

I ran 3 REB in my Survival board at a Lotus tourney last week and they were always good. They are good against control decks and they were surprisingly good against Affinity, killing Master of Etherium and countering Thoughtcast. Pretty good against Merfolk as well. I wasn't playing Goblins, and I don't know what types of decks are popular around your neck of the woods but I don't think REB is a bad choice at all. Could you find something better? Maybe, but REB is solid. True story

Mantis

06-05-2009, 02:43 PM

REB is an excellent choice, its strong against a ton of the best decks. Not only good against control but also against combo. I would even consider it against Ichorid as it hits Careful Study and Breakthrough and Narcomoeba in odd situations.

Anyway my guess is that you are most familair
with Mono R so I would play that. I think it pays off to know your deck inside and out. The alternative is a suboptimal list that you dont really know all that well. That said I do think Tacos list is very good right now. Your SB looks solid, I dont like Pillar and would play 4 Pyrokinesis..

ScatmanX

06-05-2009, 03:04 PM

Tacosnape

06-05-2009, 03:14 PM

Thanks for the replies all.
Want to put a new topic in:
Do goblins have, or don't have, to play around Daze?
I was in a mach today, where I had 1 piledriver, and 1 warchief in play, along with 4 mountains, and 1 Siege-gang in hand.
My oponent had forced my vial, and had a Mongoose in play, along with 2 lands (1 tapped) and 1 counterbalance. He had 3 or 4 cards in hand I guess, and I had nothing else. Whats the best play? Wait for 5th land, to play it Daze-proof, or try your luck, risking having nothing else to do?

I hate situational conversations because it always depends on every single factor in the game. Questions like this encourage people to make tunnel decisions and not to be analytical. Other information we need:

What was your opponent at?
What were you at?
How many cards did you have in your hand? Just the Siege-Gang?
What were your opponent's splash colors?
How long had your opponent been at 2 land (Could indicate he's holding a bunch of 3-drops and 4-drops)
Has he constantly been playing spells, or has his play been stagnant?
Did you resolve your Warchief with three lands, and how many cards has the opponent drawn since then?
What feeling did you get from the opponent's previous plays?

Mantis

06-05-2009, 03:33 PM

Usually I don't play around Daze, for example if I can go for turn 1 Vial and my opponent has Island in play and I know he plays Daze I will still play it. The reason: if they Daze it you accomplished what Vial opts to do anyway and that is steal tempo and make countermagic irrelevant. I usually just throw my balls to the wall and play right into Daze, if they have to return a land you have gained tempo anyway. That said, there are situations where I would definately play around Daze, if I have 4 lands in play, 3 lands and Siege Gang Commander in hand and I absolutely need to resolve the SCG, I rather wait a turn but that speaks for itself I guess.

Legacy is a format that is defined by tempo even more than most formats. Hence, cards such as Vial, Daze and Mox Diamond are played. Read Pat Chapins latest article on tempo and you understand why you should play Goblins as aggressive as possible most of the time.

I realize that this post is very controversial and there are a lot of exceptions to what I just posted here, so I'm just talking about the general approach and what has been succesful for me playing Goblins.

Tacosnape

06-05-2009, 03:57 PM

More often than not I agree with Mantis. I just charge ahead into Daze. But exceptions exist. Like if resolving that Siege-Gang Commander is almost guaranteed to net you the game, you might want to wait sometimes.

FoulQ

06-05-2009, 09:08 PM

I guess I'm alone then in the REB debate. Honestly, I don't see the point of lowering the goblin count unless you have to, and you have to sometimes with relics, grips, etc. Forcing them to answer me has always worked better for me, boarding in REB against force of will why? With vial, ringleader, lackey, warchief (leads to surprises) there are plenty of ways to refill and get around counters. I love the card in Goyf Sligh and other decks, but in goblins I've always found you don't need answers to counters because you aren't playing gamebreakers like fireblast and price of progress, but relying on inevitability instead.

Yes, we play siege-gang commander, ringleader, etc. which we really WANT to resolve. But resolving those isn't the ultimate goal in my opinion, keeping the tempo on your side is what has always been the determining factor in my games. Once opposing goyfs start swinging I know the game is looking bad. As Mantis was saying "getting a vial dazed isn't that big of a deal because it accomplished its goal of establishing tempo." I feel REB takes away from the goal of tempo, and of course I can repeat the same drivel that has been repeated on every page about being a nongoblin.

But I'll give it one point: it's versatile and ok in some metas. W/o a presence of cards like FoF and Solidarity, I have found it to be lacking, and I played the card as a 4of in my sideboard for more than a year during solidarity. I don't have the room in my sideboard personally.

4 gy hate
4 creature hate
4 combo hate
3 grip

That's why I'm playing. REB is ok vs combo but I wouldn't board it in against decks just because they are packing FoW.

And I agree with you Mantis on daze basically. There are situations where you should play around it but a lot of the times I expect and welcome dazes. It ties in to why I hate REB, because it doesn't really fit in with the deck's strategy from what I've seen.

Mantis

06-06-2009, 03:48 AM

About REB, I'm not sure it's that good against Threshold, but if I were to board it in against Thresh it was mainly to stop their Brainstorms and Ponders and not to beat their countermagic. But if anyone is planning to test REBs postboard against CB/Top I would love to hear the results.

The mainreason I would board it in Mono R is that it's the second best spell against combo right after Chalice we have. Additionally it does some good things against MUC and like I said possibly Ichorid.

In a multicolored version of Goblins I don't think I could find space for REBs as I would prefer Thoughtseize or Duress with black and Krosan Grip with green.

What I am curious about is how good Relic is against the new CB/Top decks which shy away from Nimble Mongoose. Basically we only hit Goyf there and assuming the RB Goblins version with Frogtossers, is that really worth it? Another one I'm hesatating about is Eva Green, it answers Goyf and can delay Tombstalker for a few turns. The problem is that we also need to side anti Plague measures against Eva Green and therefore we water our deck down a lot with Relic. I'm curious to hear your takes on this matter.
That said, I know how good Relic is against Canadian Threshold, Ichorid and Aggro Loam so it's not like I question it's inclusion.

Tacosnape

06-06-2009, 12:19 PM

I think Relic is weak against new Threshold where it only hits Tarmogoyf, despite that the initial point of Relic was to stop Tarmogoyf. I think it's far stronger against Eva or Team America type decks, where it fulfills three functions:

1. Slows Tarmogoyf.
2. Slows Tombstalker.
3. Helps you cantrip into Land and/or Vial.

Against Threshold, however, I'm not sold.

ScatmanX

06-06-2009, 01:01 PM

In a Rb version, with Frogtosser and Weirding, I woundn't run Relic, main nor SB. In a version with Edict, and 7-8 cost reducers, the cantrip to find land is not really needed, and Tormord's is better as grave hate, once Edict deals with Goyf/Stalker.

If the Thresh deck run's mongoose, then Relic is still awesome. If not, it isn't all that needed, since you have Weirdings or Stingscourer.
(just remembered, on the match I asked the question about Daze, I had 2 Relic's in hand, but he had a Needle for Relic in play so...=/)

true story

06-07-2009, 01:35 AM

Terminate + Weirding = The shit. True story. Why maindeck Relic to "deal with Goyf" when you can off him instead?

Wargoos

06-07-2009, 05:04 AM

Tacosnape

06-07-2009, 11:54 AM

What do you guys think about mooneffects from the side?
Some people try to convince my brother that those are actually viable choices.
I think it's crap since it takes away your on-colors and the ability to screw your opponents manabase.
Thoughts?

I like Moon in mono-red. I don't like it in splash colors. That simple.

In Mono-Red, two things are true.

1. You lose absolutely nothing by a Blood Moon being on the board.
2. You don't have splash colors fighting for sideboard space.

Therefore I think Moon's a perfectly viable board option if your metagame warrants it.

ScatmanX

06-07-2009, 11:56 AM

Tacosnape

06-07-2009, 12:12 PM

It is not worth it. Moon Efects are to slow. They take too much SB space. If you're going to try something that punishes your oponent for playng non-basics, Price of Progress is the card you're looking for.

I strongly disagree with this assessment. In the case of various control decks, Price punishes the opponent with an 8-10 damage shot. If they've stopped your Goblins, you're stuck. Moon will flat out win the game in most of these scenarios. Furthermore, Price of Progress is even more antisynergistic with Wasteland than Blood Moon.

Price is for decks with stronger reach than Goblins, such as those packing Bolt, Chain, etc.

Mantis

06-07-2009, 12:37 PM

Against what would you board in Moon? I dont think Id want it against Landstill as thats one MU thats very good. Other than that it seems too slow against CB Top, Eva Green and ANT/TES. Enlighten me!

ScatmanX

06-07-2009, 06:00 PM

Yes, I'd like to know that too. I don't even know anymore if I'd board in Price agains't any deck, even less Moon.

Tacosnape

06-07-2009, 06:09 PM

You board it in against anything that doesn't have the basics to compensate. Not that complicated.

I personally don't think it's worth the slot, but it really isn't that hard. It screws up a lot of strategies.

true story

06-07-2009, 11:48 PM

Against what would you board in Moon? I dont think Id want it against Landstill as thats one MU thats very good. Other than that it seems too slow against CB Top, Eva Green and ANT/TES. Enlighten me!

Those are all reasons you may not want to run Blood Moon in the first place. I'm almost positive you can find something better to play. I missed the REB debate yesterday or whenever but I'd run REB over Blood Moon. true story.

Mantis

06-08-2009, 06:45 AM

I was thinking about possible 1 drops that could replace Fanatic as I feel just 8 1-drops isnt enough. First I had the idea of Greater Gargadon with Mogg War Marshall but that plan wasnt too good in testing. But what about Goblin Chirurgeons? He looks solid in all kinds of situations against sweepers and hes awesome with Mogg War Marshall making your Chiefs and Pileys almost invincible. Also, hes 0/2 thus pretty good against Plague helping out the Pileys. The fact that he has 0 power does suck so he may not be worth it, beware the danger of cool things.

The Grim Reaper

06-08-2009, 06:55 AM

Mantis

06-08-2009, 07:42 AM

Mogg Fanatic does near to nothing in the current metagame. It used to kill Werebears and opposing Lackeys but now it's kind of dead. Confidant is really the only thing it's good against that's seeing a decent amount of play and with 4 Gempalm Incinerators we should be able to get a pretty nice deal out of that. I know that the chances are very slim to stumble on something that approaches the powerlevel of Lackey or Vial, but I believe that Goblin Chirurgeons for example warrants some testing before being dismissed.

Even though Fanatic is as weak as it is it might be the best thing available to us right now. The other option is just go with 8 1 drops and play extra 2 drops as a lot of people are already doing, but that means the deck will run a lot less smooth. So we are caught between a rock and a hard place pretty much.

gamegeek2

06-08-2009, 11:09 AM

Perhaps Skirk Prospector for its combo potential and acceleration? Maybe MD Magus of the Moon?

GreenOne

06-08-2009, 11:21 AM

DomoKun

06-08-2009, 04:03 PM

Hi all, Im back after some testing with Eva green, landstill and countertop.

Make some tweaking to my deck as follows:

RGB build

Maindeck
-1 gempalm incinerator
+1 warren weirdling
-1 Goblin wizard
-1 Lightning crafter
+1 wort boggart Auntie
+1 Boggart Mob

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of progenitus
3 pyrokinesis
4 chalice of the void
1 lightning crafter

Vs Eva green:
Boggart mob is good as it dodges the snuff out and token producing is good
Thoughtseize get away irritating stuff like tombstalker and goyf
4 grip for plague as i must draw it.

Vs Countertop
4 weirdling has been good with recurrence from wort. Thoughtseize get away goyf, shackle firespout and etc. @scantmanx, u r right relic is not needed and playing ard CBtop is just tiring, lol.
4 x grips remove shackle and annoying stuff

Vs Landstill:
Ux based, first game humility or elspeth = scooped.
after SB, too many removal, 4 beb, 4 plow, cop red,
grips x 4 are good in removing the annoying stuff, thoughtseize removed elspeth.

Conclusion, I just feel that landstill is a hard matchup and if u cant kill him within 5-6 turns, it going to be harder and harder.

Hope to hear feedback from u all, cheers

Lammina

06-09-2009, 01:55 PM

Hi all!

This is my version of the RGB Gobbos, please comments:

2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Rishadan Port
-----------------------------------------------------19 Lands

1 Sensation Gorger
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Bloodmark Mentor
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
----------------------------------------------------35 Creatures

2 Patriarch Bidding (oh yeah baby!)
4 Aether Vial
----------------------------------------------------6 Other Spells

SB

1 Earwig Squad / Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void / Pyrostatic Pillar / Thorn of Amethyst

I having been troubles in make the side...

Comments my friends!

Thx,

Lammina

Tacosnape

06-09-2009, 04:12 PM

Other 1cc options include Goblin Vandal if there are a lot of nasty artifacts in your meta and you don't wanna play Tinkerer, Frenzied Goblin or Intimidator Initiate to pass through Goyfs on the defensive, Goblin Sledder to screw combat math.

Fanatic is still the best card for that slot though.

Frenzied Goblin and Intimidator Initiate look a lot better on paper than they are, and that says a lot because they don't even look very good on paper. Goblins gets mana hungry in the midgame and doesn't have the mana to pay for this. Additionally, in the entirety of magic, any card that says "Can't block" anywhere on its text tends to suck.

Sledder walks into too many X-for-1's for me to be comfortable with him.

Of all these, Goblin Vandal's the only one I remotely like. The problem with Vandal is that very often he'll just get blocked. He can't stop Top. If Jitte's a threat, they'll hold back the threat to block for one turn, then equip/swing/eat Vandal. And Affinity will have threats down before Vandal can connect usually. He's at his best against Stax, but Chalice for 1 shuts him down. So probably not.

Tarfire also came to mind, as there are a few things Tarfire handles that Fanatic doesn't (Qasali Pridemage, a turn one Nacatl, anything in Merfolk, etc.) but I'm not convinced that A. it's worth running and B. Fanatic just isn't still better.

Knucklebone Witch is the other 1-drop I've considered, but without Mogg Fanatic, which Knucky would replace, it seems fairly weak on paper (But possibly not in application).

Lammina

06-10-2009, 12:04 AM

Slay

06-10-2009, 01:10 AM

Relic is used because it draws a card, and is never dead.

What kind of meta do you play in that you need a Sharpshooter maindeck?
-Slay

from Cairo

06-10-2009, 01:43 AM

So, someone can help me with my decklist?

19 Land is really low, I'd shoot to get up to 22 minimum. In Mono-R I've been happy with 22 (w/ 3 Relic and 4 Incinerators), in Rbg I was happy with 24 (w/ just 1 Incinerator so no real draw options).

I'd also try to find space for some more removal: Warren Weirding, additional Gempalm Incinterators, or Stingscourgers.

I also run 3 Siege-Gang Commander in any of my Goblins lists, I like having the ability to draw into the late game bomb, rather than have to Matron for it and it gives a better chance of Lackey + SGC in an opening 7.

I'd say the unconventional cards you're running would be the first things I'd cut...
4 Skirk Prospector -> 4 Wasteland
1 Sensation Gorger -> 1 Removal
1 Goblin King -> 1 Removal
1 Goblin Tinkerer -> 1 Removal
1 Bloodmark Mentor -> 1 Removal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter -> 1 Siege-Gang Commander

I wasn't a gigantic fan of Wort, Boggart Auntie in testing, but if you prefer her to SGC #3 as some people do, then it seems fine. The Patriarch's Biddings could also be Land #24 and SGC #3, but if you're happy with them they seem like a techy/unexpected bomb and better than the random 1 of Goblins.