[DTB] Vial Goblins [Archive] - Page 11

Tacosnape

06-10-2009, 01:34 PM

Mogg Fanatic is dead. You heard it here first. Cut them all if you haven't already. The rules change makes Fanatic awful.

Skirk Prospector, while still probably not worth a slot, is now superior. It got better with the new rules (You can sacrifice it with no drawback if you want to hose Ichorid, for example), while Fanatic got far worse.

Siege-Gang just got a little weaker too, but probably not enough so to warrant any drastic changes. You just now have to throw the blocked guy before combat damage, making swinging through 3 and 4 toughness guys a little harder.

My current first test list, post Fanatic-raping:

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
5 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander

Also note that I'll be testing Tarfire out as well.

DomoKun

06-10-2009, 01:46 PM

Yeah I agree tacosnape. Fanatic is nerfing is really bad, i have some suggestion over ur new build.

-1 gempalm
-1 sgc

+2 earwig

cos if u are running 4x frogger, the speed of the squad will be much faster.
I know u may not like wort but worth a try here.

Just my 2 cents worth of advice, cheers : )

Mantis

06-10-2009, 02:55 PM

Mogg Fanatic got a lot worse, that sucks. On the flipside, Port got a little better with pools emptying at the end of steps.

Another possible replacement could be Knucklebone Witch who seems decent with Mogg War Marshall and Stingscourger. It's not unlikely to become 3/3 or something pretty quickly.

ScatmanX

06-10-2009, 03:33 PM

Yeah, that plain suck.
uess will change Fanatics for Prospector, once they can also remove Bridge From Below, acelerate some cards, and do tricks with Sharpshooter aswell.

AngryTroll

06-10-2009, 03:52 PM

Although Fanatic is much, much weaker with this change, does it still warrent some slots?

It still kills Birds, Ichorids, Bridges from Below, and random dudes like Mother of Runes and occasional Kird Apes and stuff. It's no where near as good as it was a day ago, but it might be better than some of the other options being suggested for it's spot.

Tacosnape

06-10-2009, 04:47 PM

Okay, let's look at this for a minute.

Point 1. Mogg Fanatic is awful now. It's a bad removal spell and a bad threat, and it can't even do much sneaky crap anymore. It can no longer take out anything with toughness 2.

Point 2. In RB Goblins, Port is also awful despite the minor rule tweak, due to Frogtosser, and due to the fact that the 2cc slot, once the most empty point of Goblins, is now the most full. This was a large part of where Port got its usefulness. Old Goblin builds' 2-drops were Piledriver and cycling a Gempalm, and that was it. Now we've got Warren Weirding and Frogtosser Banneret too. Plus, we don't like colorless when we've got 7-8 cost reducers maindeck.

Point 3. This leaves us with only 8 1-drops in the deck; 4 Lackey, 4 Vial.

So our options are:

-Run the deck with only 8 1-drops, hoping to curve out better on turn three and four by having the Frogtossers, and mulliganing aggressively.

-Run another 1-drop that's a Goblin, which will be weak, but synergistic.

-Run another 1-drop that isn't a Goblin, which will be stronger, but make Ringleader weaker.

So far, the best I've come up with are as follows:

1. Not running another 1-drop. This oddly seems like the best plan to me, though my brain is screaming at the concept of having so little to do on turn one.

2. Thoughtseize/Therapy. God, I hate this idea, but I concede it may be one of the best ideas out there.

3. Tarfire. It's Shock. But it's also a Goblin. But it's also Shock. Lightning Bolt might be better.

4. Goblin Taskmaster. Didn't really know this guy existed, but the pumping threat could make him vaguely playable as a 2-3 of. He's probably awful, but he might be a hair more intriguing than Knucklebone Witch.

5. Relic of Progenitus. Yawn. This barely makes my sideboard.

6. Forgotten Cave. Cycling this thing would actually count as a 1-drop, as would playing it tapped. It's such a god awful topdeck, though.

7. Knucklebone Witch. On a good day, it'll get to 2/2. Decent with Stingscourger as mentioned, but still. Sigh.

8. Goblin Vandal. Artifact removal Goblins that suck against Jitte. Yeah. I'm so on board.

9. Goblin Sledder. Sacrificing all your Goblins actually gets worse when you can't stack combat damage. He's as nerfed as Fanatic.

10. Skirk Prospector. Sacrificing all your Goblins is still a bad idea. Also, you can't do the 3 goblins-equals-a-shock trick with Siege Gang and combat damage on the stack anymore.

11. Snuff Out. At least it's free.

So yeah. I'll be testing.

ScatmanX

06-10-2009, 05:10 PM

5. Relic of Progenitus. Yawn. This barely makes my sideboard.

? Thought you liked it.

The Prospector, Witch, and Forgotten Cave I guess are the best replacements.
Cave is not that bad as Topdeck, once in cantrips for R.

DragoFireheart

06-10-2009, 05:13 PM

5. Relic of Progenitus. Yawn. This barely makes my sideboard.

Wait, what? Hosing Goyfs and Ichroid decks in the form of a cantrip (it replaces itself) is a bad thing? Plus, it's a one-drop?

Wut wut? Explain in greater detail please. Or don't, since I play tempo thresh and it makes me feel better that one less person is running Relic of Shrink-Gofy. :smile:

Tacosnape

06-10-2009, 05:33 PM

I don't like it maindeck. And after a lot of playing, I'm iffy about it against Goyf, especially given that I don't have Mogg Fanatic helping. And against Ichorid, Crypt and Leyline are better. The advantage of Relic is that it does cantrip and it's incredibly versatile, which is why it's still my yard hate of choice. Relic's much better when you aren't running black, though.

Justin

06-10-2009, 07:28 PM

Okay, let's look at this for a minute.

Point 1. Mogg Fanatic is awful now. It's a bad removal spell and a bad threat, and it can't even do much sneaky crap anymore. It can no longer take out anything with toughness 2.

Point 2. In RB Goblins, Port is also awful despite the minor rule tweak, due to Frogtosser, and due to the fact that the 2cc slot, once the most empty point of Goblins, is now the most full. This was a large part of where Port got its usefulness. Old Goblin builds' 2-drops were Piledriver and cycling a Gempalm, and that was it. Now we've got Warren Weirding and Frogtosser Banneret too. Plus, we don't like colorless when we've got 7-8 cost reducers maindeck.

Point 3. This leaves us with only 8 1-drops in the deck; 4 Lackey, 4 Vial.

So our options are:

-Run the deck with only 8 1-drops, hoping to curve out better on turn three and four by having the Frogtossers, and mulliganing aggressively.

-Run another 1-drop that's a Goblin, which will be weak, but synergistic.

-Run another 1-drop that isn't a Goblin, which will be stronger, but make Ringleader weaker.

So far, the best I've come up with are as follows:

3. Tarfire. It's Shock. But it's also a Goblin. But it's also Shock. Lightning Bolt might be better.

To me Tarfire sounds like the best solution. If you are taking Mogg Fanatics out of your deck and looking to replace them with something, functionality is very important. Not only do you want a one-drop in this spot, for purposes of synergy, but you want something that performs similar functions to what you are taking out.

Mogg Fanatic was most important as a removal spell. The possibility of two-for-one trades is what put the card over the top, but it was also used to take out dangerous x/1 creatures, even in one-for-one situations. Mogg Fanatic also could help clear the way for Lackey. Connecting with Lackey is a huge part of what makes Goblins playable in this format.

Tarfire can clear a path for Lackey and take care of any x/1 or x/2 creatures. It even takes care of some things that Fanatic could not. If you opt for a non-removal spell to replace Fanatic, then you will make it more difficult on yourself to cheat in expensive goblins early.

Tacosnape

06-10-2009, 09:41 PM

..but..but...it's SHOCK.(sigh)

I'm testing Nameless Inversion at the moment. I've been playing Goblins most of the day, determined to solve this. Nameless Inversion, while not a 1-drop, is interesting for several reasons.

First off, it gives me more 2CC spells that function as removal. This keeps jumping my Lackey count. It's also a more permanent removal than Stingscourger, though Scourger still might be the better choice.

Inversion also actually swings me to liking Wort, Boggart Auntie. There's now a ton of 2-drops to sit there and recur.

I'm also going to test Stingscourger. Then Tarfire after that.

ScatmanX

06-10-2009, 09:44 PM

Actually, you got a point there.
Too bad Tartfire can't attack, pump piledriver/Gempalm, make 2 for 1's, vialed in...
And what can Nameless inversion kill that Tartfire can't (obviously we're talking Rb here).

Avatara

06-10-2009, 10:27 PM

Justin

06-10-2009, 11:18 PM

In RB isn't Gempalm Incinerator the obvious replacement for Mogg Fanatic?! We are already running 4 x Warren Weirding. It cantrips, is uncounterable and can kill your own guys versus Ichorid... something that Warren Weirding can't do.

If we are going by Tacosnape's list at the top of the page, you will notice that he is already running 4 Weirdings and 3 Gempalms. I think I would probably prefer to run the fourth Gempalm over a Nameless Inversion or Tarfire.

Gempalm can be great in the mid-game, and the late-game, but often won't be what you need in the early-game. For example, if you have a Lackey on board ready to swing on turn two, Gempalm can only deal one damage to their blocker, whereas Tarfire, Nameless, or Weirding will probably get it off the board.

As for the debate about which is better, Tarfire or Nameless, it depends on the meta I guess. If there is a lot of zoo, you'd probably rather have Nameless to take out Kird Apes and Wild Nacatl. Otherwise, the cheapness of Tarfire looks better.

Tacosnape

06-11-2009, 12:41 AM

Nameless Inversion will usually get a turn two Tarmogoyf out of the way of a Lackey, also. Tarfire isn't always so lucky.

Gempalm is actually where I lean. It's removal and actually draws you the card, which helps a lot sometimes. It's also an actual beater if need be. Same can be said about Stingscourger. While he doesn't draw the card, he's better at pushing a Lackey through and gets the benefit of coming out for one mana with a Frogtosser out. I greatly wish Stingscourger could hit your own shit, but c'est la vie.

I think I'm more concerned about what happens if we don't have a Lackey or Vial. Aggressively mulliganing for essentially a one in eight shot doesn't sound like my favorite kind of proposition.

It's worth noting about Tarfire that if Goblins doesn't have Fanatic, we have almost zero reliable answers to a turn one Goblin Lackey. Our own Lackey is it, and it dies to Gempalm. The mirror will still happen on occasion. Tarfire will actually kill this Lackey.

Jason

06-11-2009, 12:46 AM

Nameless Inversion will usually get a turn two Tarmogoyf out of the way of a Lackey, also. Tarfire isn't always so lucky.

Actually Tarfire will never be lucky enough to kill a Goyf. It's an Instant and Tribal, meaning Goyf will always be at least a 2/3 if you shoot it with Tarfire

Tacosnape

06-11-2009, 02:40 AM

Actually Tarfire will never be lucky enough to kill a Goyf. It's an Instant and Tribal, meaning Goyf will always be at least a 2/3 if you shoot it with Tarfire

Ah yes. Stupid Tribal. Makes Nameless Inversion a lot less likely too.

I'm seriously leaning towards just running the 8 1-drops and mulliganing more aggressively.

Eldariel

06-11-2009, 03:43 AM

Ah yes. Stupid Tribal. Makes Nameless Inversion a lot less likely too.

I'm seriously leaning towards just running the 8 1-drops and mulliganing more aggressively.

I've been doing this for a while. It seems to work just fine. It's not like you kept hands on the strength of Mogg Fanatic alone previously anyways, so little changes with that regard.

Avatara

06-11-2009, 08:38 AM

Removing a one drop creature will make the Vial curve go really bad. We'll have almost nothing to drop @ 1 and 2 counters.

no_chi

06-11-2009, 09:45 AM

I'm currently testing a singleton Fanatic. That's what I used in a previous tournament anyway. I agree with Goblins weakening due to the combat damage rules change, and I'm curious to see how this will affect our card choices. The Fanatic replacements (Tarfire, Nameless Inversion, etc) seem intriguing.

Avatara

06-11-2009, 09:54 AM

Maybe Lightning Crafter will become more playable? He can deal 3 damage every turn and it's possible to combine this damage with combat damage from other goblins. He can also also kill a 5/6 Goyfs, on his own, while defending. Being 4 mana gives him a nice position on the vials curve (Ringleader) for suprice vials. Matron/Ringleader + Crafter is just sexy.

Mantis

06-11-2009, 10:32 AM

Tarfire seems awful to me, I'd sooner run Lightning Bolt and at least have a shot at taking out Goyf. Nameless Inversion seems only randomly useful as it typically doesn't take out Goyf, remember that statebased effects are checked before the spell resolves thus Goyf counts Tribal as well. Gempalm seems infinitely better than both options to me and with 4 Incinerator and 4 Weirding it seems that the removal count is enough already.

Currently I think there are 2 good paths to take for Goblins, one is RB with Frogtosser and Warren Weirding and no Ports. The other is Mono R, which I vastly prefer because of the stable manabase and Rishadan Port.
What I'm currently testing is this:

4 of each uncontested inclusions: Lackey/Vial/Piledriver/Warchief/Matron/Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Skirk Prospector
3 Siege Gang Commander

15 Mountain
4 Port
4 Wasteland

Skirk Prospector is probably the weakest card in the deck but together with Mogg War Marshal and Matron you can power out Siege Gangs pretty quickly and as a result seems worthy of testing time. If he turns out to play like a champ I might switch to 3. Mogg War Marshal on the other hand has been very good. Against the more aggressive decks it gives you the time to stabilize and get SGC's and Ringleaders online as it chumps Goyfs, Nacatls, Shades etc. Against control decks he's good too serving a very different role in pumping Piledriver to swing for the win quickly and basically outnumbering their removal spells.
If you see this GreenOne, I'd like to know how it performs for you in testing.

The biggest selling point for Mono R is obviously the manabase, which is awesome. You take 0 damage from your mana and you are almost immune to Wasteland and Stifle. I am still trying to figure out a way to go up to 24 mana so that might mean dropping a SGC, a Skirk Prospector or a Mogg War Marshal.

One of the biggest downsides is that this deck is probably the most suspectible to Engineered Plague of all the variations out there. Thus some sideboard measures seem to be needed. I'm thinking about some Goblin Kings as they pump the myriad of tokens as well.
A possible sideboard could look like this:
4 Chalice of the Void (I still love these not only against combo but also against Burn and Zoo)
4 Relic of Progenitus (Eva Green, Tempo Thresh, Aggro Loam)
4 Pyrokinesis (Tribal, Zoo, Affinity and random aggro)
The last 3 slots I would split between:
Goblin King, Red Elemental Blast and Goblin Tinkerer depending on the expected metagame.

GreenOne

06-11-2009, 10:46 AM

Skirk Prospector is probably the weakest card in the deck but together with Mogg War Marshal and Matron you can power out Siege Gangs pretty quickly and as a result seems worthy of testing time. If he turns out to play like a champ I might switch to 3. Mogg War Marshal on the other hand has been very good. Against the more aggressive decks it gives you the time to stabilize and get SGC's and Ringleaders online as it chumps Goyfs, Nacatls, Shades etc. Against control decks he's good too serving a very different role in pumping Piledriver to swing for the win quickly and basically outnumbering their removal spells.
If you see this GreenOne, I'd like to know how it performs for you in testing.

The biggest selling point for Mono R is obviously the manabase, which is awesome. You take 0 damage from your mana and you are almost immune to Wasteland and Stifle. I am still trying to figure out a way to go up to 24 mana so that might mean dropping a SGC, a Skirk Prospector or a Mogg War Marshal.

One of the biggest downsides is that this deck is probably the most suspectible to Engineered Plague of all the variations out there. Thus some sideboard measures seem to be needed. I'm thinking about some Goblin Kings as they pump the myriad of tokens as well.
Prospector seemed to me the easier of the substitutes for Fanatic IF we don't wanna play it anymore (in monored). Fanatic still has its uses in taking down mana critters (we're still a mana denial deck with monored thanks to Rishadans), pesky Confidants and add a damage to our incinerators. It has become bad in combat, but still don't know if there's something better in monored.
Prospector's ability of making all your subsequent spells dodge daze, wrecking bridges like there's no tomorrow, and the synergy with War Marshall are good.
Look into Boartusk Liege before Goblin King. It actually make a difference and doesn't suck in the mirror. I'm playing 2-3 in the board against plague and Pyroclasm.
That said, the new combat step needs total retesting. The Rb/Rg/Rgb version might have become better than monored with this passage.

snackfu

06-11-2009, 11:25 AM

I firmly believe that we NEED to have at least 10 1-drops, preferably 11. As such, I did a brief review of some of the possibilities...

Possible replacements for Mogg Fanatic:

Goblin Grappler/Frenzied Goblin
Pro: Can help Piledriver reach opponent.
Con: Not very good on its own.

Goblin Sledder
Pro: Can help pump goblins to our advantage.
Con: Combat tricks are not as good with the new rules.

Goblin Taskmaster
Pro: Can be pumped in late game somewhat similar to Basking Rootwalla; can also be played morphed under Engineered Plague.
Con: Does not pump back end, requires 2 mana for +1 power.

Goblin Vandal
Pro: Can take care of all pesky artifacts…
Con: That is, if he can make it through on the attack.

Mogg Sentry
Pro: Helps increase damage by becoming a 3/3 if opponent counters or destroys any of our goblins pre-attack phase.
Con: Opponent can play around this ability.

Ragin Goblin (I know, I know)
Pro: Fast, aggressive beater that doesn’t need Warchief to pump Pildriver the turn it comes into play; almost guarantees 1 damage on turn 1.
Con: Not the most impressive card in the later game.

Skirk Prospector
Pro: Can hasten out Warchiefs, protects against Dredge
Con: We want more goblins on the field, not less typically; unimpressive on its own.

Tattermunge Maniac
Pro: Aggressive Turn 1 drop
Con: Drawback could be a factor mid to late game.

Knucklebone Witch
Pro: Can become fearsome with a bit of removal.
Con: If creatures are dying, why wouldn’t they just kill this when it becomes an issue?

So...

I am tempted to try some sort of tutorable variation here. What about 1 Goblin Grappler, 1 Mogg Fanatic, 1 Tarfire, 1 Nameless Inversion? Mogg Sentry intrigues me a bit, because we often are casting a lot of things pre-combat phase, forcing opponents to counter or kill things. Tattermunge Maniac could also be a factor here, but as a 2-3 of, perhaps.

Or maybe I am being ridiculous and should just mulligan more aggressively, as other posters seem to be leaning. However, if we can squeeze in a couple of decent utility Goblins on the low end to keep our curve, I think it might be worth it.

Tacosnape

06-11-2009, 12:47 PM

I'm not so sure we need more 1-drops on the play, but we need to be doing something before turn two on the draw to avoid getting smashed in a fast format.

I'm trying Gemstone Caverns out as a 2-of, retardedly enough. I'm aware that I'm reaching, but hey.

GreenOne

06-11-2009, 02:05 PM

Eldariel

06-11-2009, 02:48 PM

Removing a one drop creature will make the Vial curve go really bad. We'll have almost nothing to drop @ 1 and 2 counters.

Adding Stingscourger generally allows you to use the Vial when it's at two counters; that's about the time when you want to bounce the Goyf or whatever anyways. That said, if you must, you can run Mogg War Marshal or some such in that slot instead.

Wargoos

06-11-2009, 02:59 PM

Why no MD Relics now?

Damnosus

06-11-2009, 03:05 PM

Why no MD Relics now?

Yea, it's now an even better idea considering that it does what fanatic used to do against dredge, as well as hinder goyf (which has gotten slightly better since all vanilla creatures are now slightly better) and stalker.

ScatmanX

06-11-2009, 03:58 PM

I run 3 MD relics, and like them.
I have 3 Stingscourer, and really don't want to take them out.
Think that Warmarchal can be great, but can't find slots for him, since I will not run without Stingscourer neither Relics.

Also, Liege>King. That's a fact.

Nelis

06-11-2009, 06:47 PM

I would definitely go for Thoughtseize as a replacement for fanatic, all the goblin type replacements suck and do not nearly have the same impact as thoughtseize would. Or just keep on playing Mogg Fanatic, I sacrificed it more often to get rid of Dark Confidant than use it for anything else.

And maybe we get lucky and they print a decent 1 drop goblin. If they're fair they compensate us for this drastic rules change.

And if anyone can tell me why Frogtosser is an option so suddenly and why Ports are not as good anymore with these new rules? I don't get it.

ScatmanX

06-11-2009, 07:58 PM

Ports are beter with new rules, if I understand right.
And Frogtosser has always been an aoption, only dismissed too quickly.

Thoughtseize does seems ok, since can hit creatures, but is a non-goblin... =/

Media314r8

06-11-2009, 10:58 PM

It may be worth noting that should you run MD earwig squads, a first turn prospector can facilitate a second turn prowled squad, which in addition to t1 lackey -> lackey trigger put in chief/frogtosser prowl squad are about our only outs against combo, and can help improve MUs against enchantress, (RFG the three wincons or moats and a solitary if they have 1 in hand) plagues post SB, and provides a proactive extirpate attached to a hefty 5/3 turn two against decks in the dark.

I do, however, fancy the idea of a singleton Lightning crafter.

Nelis

06-12-2009, 02:49 AM

Ports are beter with new rules, if I understand right.

Point 2. In RB Goblins, Port is also awful despite the minor rule tweak, due to Frogtosser, and due to the fact that the 2cc slot, once the most empty point of Goblins, is now the most full. This was a large part of where Port got its usefulness. Old Goblin builds' 2-drops were Piledriver and cycling a Gempalm, and that was it. Now we've got Warren Weirding and Frogtosser Banneret too. Plus, we don't like colorless when we've got 7-8 cost reducers maindeck.

I get it now actually, it was just too tired yesterday. If you play frogtosser and other 2 drops I must agree with Ports not being good enough

And Frogtosser has always been an option, only dismissed too quickly.

Thoughtseize does seems ok, since can hit creatures, but is a non-goblin... =/

I never really liked frogtosser, does not do anything on it's own, and is a terrible top deck as well.

As soon as it comes to sideboarding it's no problem siding in Thoughtseize or other non-goblins and we take it for granted that Ringleader is a bit less effective. That's why I personally never really saw a problem running it main. The biggest problem to me always was that I only had 2 free slots main for thoughtseize which I think is too little.

Maybe it's worth getting into food chain goblins?

Mantis

06-13-2009, 05:16 AM

Three really interesting suggestions, all of which I personally like better than Fanatic even under the 'old' rules.

Gemstone Caverns is definately to try out, together with taking aggressive mulligans it would mean you always have something to do on turn 1. The problem with the card is that it provides colorless mana on the play, so what would you remove for it? I guess I would just remove 2 Fanatics for 2 Caverns in Taco's list or maybe 1 Hovel/Mountain + 1 Fanatic. In any case, Taco's list seems like the best list out there to take advanatge of Caverns as it gets away with not running Ports.

Skirk Prospector with Earwig Squad is interesting and something I have considered many times in the past. Right now it seems decent for the reasons Media noted. It's reasonable to assume a turn 2 Earwig Squad if you draw one. That said, after we cut the Fanatics for Prospectors we still have to find a way to make room for at least 2 Earwig Squads and I would prefer 3 or 4 actually. Making room for 3/4 Skirk, 2/3 Earwig and 4 Frogtosser seems almost impossible without cutting into the core Goblins. It would be nice to see a list, Media?

The power of Thoughtseize must not be underestimated as well. Nelis has a good point, I've heard a lot of players tell me how versatile Seize was in tournament play yet we dismiss it somehow. Looks like a great replacement for Seize as well. I think this is the easiest fit and it will definately shore up some bad matchups. The argument that Ringleader, while true isn't all that relevant too often anyway. Once you have the mana up and resolve stuff like Ringleader you should probably be in a good position anyway most of the time and running out of gas is unlikely with mana usually being the ratelimiting step. I know I'm making a gross oversimplification of reality here, but that's how most games play out for me anyway. I rarely won a game because I was able to hit Mogg Fanatics of Ringleader but I often lost games because I didn't disrupt my opponent enough.

EDIT: I forgot to address Relic. I don't like it maindeck actually. It's only amazing against Tempo Thresh (Team America), Eva Green, Ichorid and Aggro Loam which definately don't make up the majority of the metagame. It suffers from the following problem, you drop it on turn 1 but then you need to spare a mana somewhere to get a card out of it. Instead I'd rather tap out to either Port or Waste my opponent or to play Goblins and beat face. After turn 1 we rarely have problems spending our mana. A more likely scenario would be that you either topdeck it or you have a Vial or Lackey in hand together with Relic that just plain sucks.

Charlatan

06-13-2009, 07:14 AM

I still running Mogg fanatic.

There is no better goblin drop (except lackey) in the first turn.

In th ebggining i was scared and etc. but now, i calm down and face this wizards shit. We will show them that Fanatic still a good card...

GreenOne

06-13-2009, 08:48 AM

After a testing session, I've decided the changes in my monored list post M10.

My list before:
the 4ofs+
15 Mountains
4+4 Port, Waste
4 Fanatic
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 SGC
4 Gempalm

My list post M10
-2 Fanatic
+1 Gemstone Caverns (good with ports and with the increased number of 2 drops)
+1 Mogg War Marshal

This leaves me with 2 Fanatics, which are still good dealing with X/1s and making incinerator better. 10 1cc spells (+1 caverns on the draw) should be enough for making a good number of turn 1 plays.
Mogg Fanatic is probably still the best 1cc goblin drop after lackey.

Bongo

06-13-2009, 10:16 AM

Hi there,

Since M10 is looming on the horizon, I thought that I'll play with Fanatics this weekend. I settled on Mono-Red, as I like the pain-free, stifle-proof manabase a lot. First, the maindeck:

16 Mountain
4 Waste
4 Port

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
4 Driver
4 Chief
4 Matron
4 Ring
3 Incinerator
2 SGC
2 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer

The maindeck is pretty basic. I like 24 lands since Goblins need quite a lot of mana and I'm almost always happy to draw land. Three Gempalms and two Scourgers because I'm expecting a creature-heavy metagame with a few heavy hitters that Gempalm cant handle.

What I'm not so sure about is the Tinkerer. How have your experiences been with maindeck Tinkerer? Sometimes he's absolutely amazing (e.g. against Dreadnought and Factories), but often he's useless. If you would relegate Tinkerer to the SB, what card would you play maindeck?

GreenOne

06-13-2009, 10:34 AM

I like 24 lands since Goblins need quite a lot of mana and I'm almost always happy to draw land.
For the sake of testing, would you mind playing with -1 Mountain and +1 Gemstone Cavers, and tell us how it goes? 15 Basics should be enough and Caverns almost count as half a red mana source. :smile:

Mantis

06-13-2009, 10:37 AM

Eldariel

06-13-2009, 11:59 AM

Mishra's Factory is never a problem and Dreadnought usually comes down before Tinkerer and after that you don't get to stick it. You can't rely on it to come down before Dreadnought if you play one. So I would cut Tinkerer, he's awful in almost every matchup and even against Dreadstill where he's supposed to shine he is awful most of the time. He's not even worth the sideboard space.

Uh, how often does Dreadstill actually have a turn 2 Dreadnought? Generally they have to spend a turn or two of sculpting their hand before that And even then, you can hardcast it, take one hit and be in time even on the draw. Also, being able to keep Countertop-decks replaying their Top is very handy in conjuction with Wasteland and Port.

Oh, and killing Vial from Merfolk or the mirror is pretty huge. And while not that omnipresent, Jitte is still around and kicks your arse if it gets going - better kill it. And breaking Moxes of the Diamond-variety is often a key to beating Aggro Loam and Stax, while the Chrome-variety is often integral to the Stompy-decks. And Chalice at 1 bones you if it comes out turn 1; breaking it and dropping Vial is a lifesaver.

And Factory can definitely be relevant when you can't get Vial to stick and thus have to run your card advantage Goblins through counters. Sure, Gempalm is preferable, but lacking that, Tinkerer is a lifesaver. Also deals with the whole Crucible-nonsense if the game goes midgame.

I definitely disagree with your assessment here; I've found Tinkerer quite useful quite often. Hell, I've even won games because of 0/1 Tinkerer swinging with Pile under Plague (of course, that only makes him better than X/1s, but still).

Mantis

06-13-2009, 12:19 PM

Well sure if you run 3 or 4 Tinkerers they are great as they serve as pro active disruption, as a 1 of its reactive. A Dreadstill player will have permission for your Matron -> Tinkerer cascade. Pro actively playing Matron for Tinkerer seems bad as well, it means you play terribly slow. I would prefer Matron for Piley against Merfolk every time I guess.
Factory has never been an issue with Port, Waste and Incinerator.

Against Stax and Stompy its good but those decks make up just a tiny percentage of the metagame. Against Aggro Loam playing Matrob for Tinkerer means Goyf, DD, Assault and Vore will stomp you while you are busy neutering their Mox...

As a 3 or 4 of main or side I could see an argument depending on the meta, but a reactive one of plan is just terrible.

Eldariel

06-13-2009, 12:23 PM

Well sure if you run 3 or 4 Tinkerers they are great as they serve as pro active disruption, as a 1 of its reactive. A Dreadstill player will have permission for your Matron -> Tinkerer cascade. Pro actively playing Matron for Tinkerer seems bad as well, it means you play terribly slow. Merfolk is the most unfair MU I have ever seen, also I would prefer Matron for Piley there anyway.
Factory has never been an issue with Port, Waste and Incinerator.

Against Stax and Stompy its good but those decks make up just a tiny percentage of the metagame. Against Aggro Loam playing Matrob for Tinkerer means Goyf, DD, Assault and Vore will stomp you while you are busy neutering their Mox...

As a 3 or 4 of main or side I could see an argument depending on the meta, but a reactive one of plan is just terrible.

It's pretty functional as a 2-of main with one more on the side. That's the set-up I've been running. But you're right, it's not amazing as a tutor target.

Tacosnape

06-13-2009, 01:07 PM

Can't believe I'm saying this, but I sort of like Gemstone Caverns so far in testing. I can't decide if I want to run one or two. I did hit both of them when I ran two one time, which was sort of a pain in the ass, but I like how often I hit it with one.

Of the times I had Gemstone Caverns in my opening hand on the draw in testing (9 out of 20, but that seems a little high. Some math nerd, what's the actual probability here?), I was able to make easy decisions as to what to remove based on my hand. I removed land three times (Including the other Gemstone Caverns once), a Lackey twice (When I had no removal backing him up), a Siege-Gang (When I had two), and I forget what else.

It's allowed me turn one Frogtossers on the draw, which has been nice. It's also allowed me turn one Weirdings against fast aggro decks. I've also dropped Piledrivers and aggro accelerated Gempalms.

It's not drawbackless, though. A couple games I wanted it to produce red when it didn't so bad that it might have cost me the game. So I'll keep testing.

GreenOne

06-13-2009, 01:46 PM

Some math nerd, what's the actual probability here?
22% of it being in your starting 7 on the draw playing 2 copies.

I'm playing a single one and it was fantastic the only time i had it in the starting 7. However, the other times it was just better as a red source.

Still testing, though.

Tacosnape

06-13-2009, 01:51 PM

22% of it being in your starting 7 on the draw playing 2 copies.

I'm playing a single one and it was fantastic the only time i had it in the starting 7. However, the other times it was just better as a red source.

Still testing, though.

And I got it 45%? That's pretty ridiculous. I'm waiting for it to succumb to the "Tacosnape Rule of Leylines," which means that regardless of the shuffle or cut, Leyline of the Anything, if run in the deck, will be the 8th card from the top.

It seems to be a pretty high impact card. It wins me games and loses me games.

ScatmanX

06-13-2009, 07:07 PM

Just came home from my championship. Did 1-2 drop, where the 1 was the 1st round bye due to 37 players... not what I expected. I almost won a a game agains't TES though.

Well, at least got to buy 4 Badlands, and will try Rb, probably with prospector, and Earwig main deck. =]

Valtrix

06-13-2009, 07:31 PM

I guess the question about caverns is that do you think it makes you win games that you not have otherwise? I mean, sure getting some things out faster is nice, but is it both A) Good enough in the situations where you do have caverns in the beginning and B) worth it in the situations later when you'd rather have a particular color source.

Avatara

06-14-2009, 04:34 PM

Nessaja

06-14-2009, 04:50 PM

I absolutely love the flavor on that card.

(nameless one)

06-14-2009, 05:36 PM

with the mana burn rule change, do you all think its possible to add Braid of Fire in this deck (after all, Goblins is a mana-demanding deck)

edgewalker

06-14-2009, 05:40 PM

What does goblins play that requires mana during it's upkeep? With the new rules there is no mana burn, but also mana is lost from step to step as well as phase to phase. I don't see it having a home in goblins since you have nothing to play with the excess mana.

(nameless one)

06-14-2009, 06:24 PM

oh crap...

now i know why its not viable...

dr4g0n

06-14-2009, 07:57 PM

With the rule changes and people wondering over the number of one-drops to run, I decided to do a couple of calculations. If you run 12 one drops, you have a 80.9% chance of drawing at least one of them in your opening hand. If you run 10, there's a 74.1% chance of the same. For 8 one drops you have a 65.3% chance (that's running bare minimum with 4 lackeys and Vials).

This then means that running the bare minimum lackeys and vials, you're going to have to send about a third of your hands back.
I don't really know how much of a risk you guys like to take, but that seems to be too much of a chance.

For interests sake, there's a 14.3% chance of drawing two hands (7 then 6 cards after a mullagain) with no one drops in them if you run bare minimum.

snackfu

06-14-2009, 11:49 PM

As I stated before, I firmly believe we need a minimum of 10 1-drops. Thanks for providing the numbers to back me up.

I am considering something like:

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 ???

That last slot could be another Mogg Fanatic, a Skirk Prospector, Goblin Sledder, Goblin Grappler (leaning this way).

Or hell, maybe just go with three fanatics and call it good.

Though I am interested in the Gemstone Caverns experiment. I happen to have that thing right in my binder and always thought it should serve some purpose...

GreenOne

06-15-2009, 04:17 AM

This then means that running the bare minimum lackeys and vials, you're going to have to send about a third of your hands back.
It's not like a hand without turn 1 drop is an automull.
I'd gladly keep a hand with a 2cc drop (or a rishadan port) on the play, or a hand with 2cc drops and Gemstone Caverns on the draw.

Shimster

06-15-2009, 07:10 AM

This is the list I played to a 6/1/0 result (no T8 playoff) at the Iserlohn event yesterday:

// Lands (24)
5 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

// Creatures (29)
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Earwig Squad
2 Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells (7)
4 AEther Vial
3 Warren Weirding

Goblin Pyromancer was mvp all day long, as he is able to win situations that would be lost otherwise. I would substitute two of the Weirdings with Terminate. Often times I wished for a targeted removal that isn't dependent on the number of goblins in play.

@ GreenOne: In fact, a hand without a 1st turn drop, is a mulligan most of the time. A 2nd turn Port activation without a 1st turn Vial or Lackey drop is definitely bad.

GreenOne

06-15-2009, 08:44 AM

@ GreenOne: In fact, a hand without a 1st turn drop, is a mulligan most of the time. A 2nd turn Port activation without a 1st turn Vial or Lackey drop is definitely bad.
Are you seriously mulliganing hands on the play like 2xMountain, Port, Mogg war marshal, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader?

Or Mountain, Port, Gemstone Caverns, Mogg war marshal, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader on the draw?

I'm not going to take the risks of a mull to six, just looking for the power of a turn 1 Lackey or Vial.
And, anyway, it's not like I'm not playng 4 vials and lackeys, I'm just not maximizing the third 1cc drop.

A second turn Port is decent if you're trying to reach the middle-late game, where your card advantage machine starts to work.

If you're feeling more comfortable mulliganing down to 6 and taking your 55% (or so) of probability of having a vial or a lackey, take your chance.
I don't feel like it's a good deal, but you can do it.

Tacosnape

06-15-2009, 12:09 PM

If you want to see something hilarious... try Raging River

Enchantment - RR

Whenever one or more creatures you control attack, each defending player divides all creatures without flying he or she controls into a "left" pile and a "right" pile. Then, for each attacking creature you control, choose "left" or "right." That creature can't be blocked this combat except by creatures with flying and creatures in a pile with the chosen label.

I used to run this in Mono Red. No joke. In RB this is inferior to Cover of Darkness IMO, though. Cover of Darkness = Super Sneaky Tech.

That said, just removing the blockers is generally a better strategy. Otherwise they tend to hit you back.

DragoFireheart

06-15-2009, 12:27 PM

I used to run this in Mono Red. No joke. In RB this is inferior to Cover of Darkness IMO, though. Cover of Darkness = Super Sneaky Tech.

That said, just removing the blockers is generally a better strategy. Otherwise they tend to hit you back.

Wow, cover is just plain mean. I'd hate to see that in a tournament.

I'm curious as to how this deck deals with mass removal like Pyroclasm and the like.

Tacosnape

06-15-2009, 12:38 PM

Wow, cover is just plain mean. I'd hate to see that in a tournament.

I'm curious as to how this deck deals with mass removal like Pyroclasm and the like.

Throw enough goblins at any problem and it should go away. At the very least, there'll be fewer Goblins.

This sort of covers Goblins' answer to almost anything: More Goblins.

DragoFireheart

06-15-2009, 12:43 PM

This sort of covers Goblins' answer to almost anything: More Goblins.

I was thinking about making goblins. How cheap is it to make the deck? Can it go mono-red and be semi-competitive?

Mantis

06-15-2009, 02:15 PM

I know others think differently about it, but I currently feel like Mono Red is actually the best version. I have all the fetches and the duals but still play Mono Red, the same goes for GreenOne. I know others disagree and I respect that opinion, but Mono R certainly is a viable budget option, that is if you actually play the good Goblins obviously. I don't think anyone will disagree with that.

Nelis

06-16-2009, 04:57 PM

Maybe now is the time to go RU Goblins? :tongue:

Ectoplasm

06-16-2009, 05:18 PM

I'm honestly considering monored goblins with a blue splash for 4x stifle, it should be loads of fun!

mujadaddy

06-16-2009, 05:40 PM

I'm honestly considering monored goblins with a blue splash for 4x stifle, it should be loads of fun!

Curfew (http://magiccards.info/br/en/17.html) for your Matrons, Ringleaders, Hooligans...

dr4g0n

06-16-2009, 06:45 PM

GreenOne

06-17-2009, 03:49 AM

Just a question that came up recently in a discussion I had, why is Kiki Jiki never used nowdays? It was pretty popular before, and performs the same role as Wort, except for mono-red and R/G decks. It can also break deadlocks, especially against Affinity decks. Anyone?
Kiki Jiki rarely does something more of Siege Gang Commander, and often does something less. To break Affinity's stalemates, try SGC, it works wonders. Also, topdecking SGC with an empty board is a thing, while KJ just beats for 2. Kiki has a nasty mana cost with the triple R and doesn't work if they remove the target of your copy. It's also quite easy to burn/remove, where SGC leaves us with 3 fresh new brothers, and sometimes also Shock our opponent.

Kiki Jiki is good to run (even in multiples) in versions exploiting combos (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12248) like Kiki Jiki + Lightning Crafter + sacrifice effect (prospector, sledder, food chain) or Matron + Food Chain (matron for kiki, play kiki, copy matron for kiki, play kiki... repeat until you play a Pyromancer and swing for 20+).

Eseph

06-17-2009, 11:48 PM

I heard mention of FCG and couldn't help but chyme in.

I've never really understood the aversion to Kiki, while it's true that he can set you up for a let down, more often than not he will win you games while on the table. And with the loss of Fanatic I would think Prospector/Kiki/Crafter would be an easy inclusion for another win condition. And an alternate win plan through moat and the like is never anything to scoff at. And Crafter only gets better with Vial.

Sure he's better in a list built to abuse him, but all parts of the combo are still solid cards that all help the primary plan, and provide different options for winning.

GreenOne

06-18-2009, 04:01 AM

Sure he's better in a list built to abuse him, but all parts of the combo are still solid cards that all help the primary plan, and provide different options for winning.
The problem is that those cards are usually inferior to the other cards you could run in their place.
You either have to take 2 approaches:
- You play just 1-2 copies of the 3 combo cards: assembling the combo gets quite difficult, and it's going to happen only in the late game.
- Maximize the number of the combo cards (prospector, kiki, crafter): your deck is full of chaff. Your curve at 4cc and 5cc is way too high, and you actually have to find those 12 slots.

Aggro-combo is my favourite archetype, but i don't believe that this one is that good. In fact it's usually worse than regular goblin builds.

That said, if anyone wants to test a version, here's a build I'm suggesting. Tell us how it goes!

// Lands
16 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
2 [ON] Skirk Prospector
2 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 Open Slots

Meanwhile, I'm testing (under Mantis' suggestion) a monored list with 1 Caverns, 2 Fanatics, 2 Tinkerers and 2 Stingscourger. It works wonders.

Bongo

06-18-2009, 07:35 AM

I can also recommend MonoRed. The manabase is superstable and you can cover most weak spots with your SB.

My main:

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander

2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Stingscourger

Pretty basic, the only unusual choices are the last four slots. War-Marshal is underrated, there are a lot of synergies. Lightning Crafter has also convinced me the more I play with it, you can do plays that otherwise you wouldn't be able to do.

The SB is obviously dependant on the metagame, but I can list mine if requested.

Happy Gilmore

06-18-2009, 09:17 AM

GreenOne

06-18-2009, 09:50 AM

Some times I wonder why Goblins is in the Dtb at all. However, I am sure of two things. Firstly that any list that doesnt run wierding will be poor in any metagame, and two, that post M10 the deck is only going to get weaker.

The manabase is just fine. 16 red sources is enough to run it, and your only making the deck better running black, both for Wierding in the main and Perish in the board. Unfortunately in the current metagame Goblins is simply worse than Merfolk. Even the decks i thought would be worse against Goblins seem to beat the deck regardless. At this point there are no matchups for the deck which are favorable and can be considered a metagame presense. Why does everyone want to play this deck and face an unhill battle in every single round of a tournament?
I'm glad there's someone saying it, cause we need more people like you. This way people will stop playing Pyroclasms, Engineered Plagues, and the other cards that are needed to keep this deck in check.

Goblins has a favourable matchup against Merfolk, Survival, Team America and a fair matchup against Countertop, Aggro Loam, Ichorid, Dragon Stompy and landstill (if you're still running ports).

I don't wanna say that Rb is unviable, but surely monored has its uses, in having a much more stable manabase, uncounterable removal that draws (even if doesn't remove everything), powerful tempo tools like Stingscourger and Mogg War Marshall, and Rishadan Port (that helps greatly against Landstill) and it's obviously better in the mirror.

People is less and less approaching the game with "do I have an answer to turn 1 Lackey?", so it's also happening more to connect with it.

I tested the deck quite a lot in the last days, with the new rules. Fanatic is not fantastic anymore, but still a nice 1cc drop. The other changes are not effecting much the deck. Often stacking damage before sac with SGC was not game deciding, as it was cycling incinerator with dmg on stack.

Eldariel

06-18-2009, 09:57 AM

Why does everyone want to play this deck and face an unhill battle in every single round of a tournament?

Because Merfolk is a very good match, you won't lose to many kinds of Dreadstill/Landstill builds (especially since they focus less and less on beating Gobs), you should be the favorite against most Countertop-builds, should be the favorite against most Survival-builds and have a respectable game vs. base-red aggro of all kinds?

It seems like the the only really bad MUs of relevance are Tempo Thresh (a deck you still have game against, as long as they don't SB too many Pyroclasms), Tendrils and mayhap Aggro Loam.

I'm also curious as to why you consider Weirdings such a must; the decks it used to be awesome against are packing more and more crap that gets in the way of it doing its thing (nowadays you might hit a Trygon Predator or your own Sowered/Shackled creature or Confi instead of that Goyf you wanted gone, or that Trinket Mage/Factory instead of that Dreadnought), and it's an uncheatable 2-drop which seems fairly bad with Counterbalance and Spell Snare having heavy metagame presence.

Besides, Stingscourger does the job of "spot removal" pretty well for this deck as you tend to be able to overwhelm any deck's Goyfs in midgame regardless, and you really only need them out of the way long enough to swing for the fences.

Eseph

06-18-2009, 10:24 AM

And if you're really disillusioned with Vial Goblins as it stands you're always welcome in the Food Chain camp (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=150566)... I don't have enough testing numbers to say anything definitively but the only matchup that FCG seems to have worse than gobs is the Merfolk Match, everything else is generally easier to work through, and you're far less likely to lose to random jank.

Also for GreenOne's suggested Crafter/Kiki list, I don't think you really even need to spend that many resources on it. Not dedicating more to it it will always be more of an "Oops I win" kind of setup (which isn't terribly hard to pull off anyways). Matron will always be the best way, and if you leave it to 1 Crafter you can just pull it out when necessary, plus Crafter really has more potential on his own then people give him credit for. Personally for a mono red list I would take GreenOne's and do this:

-1 Lightning Crafter
-1 Siege-Gang Commander
-1 Gempalm Incinerator

+1 Sharposhooter/Prospector based on preference
+2 Stingscourger

Drops the curve a bit and gives a better removal suite (IMO), also I tend to prefer Kiki to SGC, so anyone not comfortable with him would be better off with a 2/1 split in favour of SGC. This also lowers the curve in to a more reasonable one.

Mantis

06-18-2009, 12:16 PM

Happy_Gilmore does have a point. I have felt about Goblins the same way many times before. But I love Goblins, it's a very consistent deck that beats the two best decks in the format; Merfolk and CB/Top. Also, it's the deck I play best.

Playing a ton of Goblins I came to three conclusion;
I hate Fanatic.
I hate splashing colors.
I love Rishadan Port and without Port this deck is not viable.

@Eseph:
That deck doesn't have Port, so I can already tell that the Landstill and the combo matchup are worse. That said, I might give it a spin sometime.

Eseph

06-18-2009, 01:31 PM

@Eseph:
That deck doesn't have Port, so I can already tell that the Landstill and the combo matchup are worse. That said, I might give it a spin sometime.

You'd be surprised what Chalice of the Void, and Leyline of Lifeforce out of the board can accomplish. Landstill more or less evens out, but the combo match is actually better thanks to chalice, and the ability to race a turn 2 win.

ptahetep

06-18-2009, 05:49 PM

I love Rishadan Port and without Port this deck is not viable.

Hi, could you expand on why you like Port so much and what is your Port strategy going into the key matchups?
Thanks.

Mantis

06-20-2009, 04:31 PM

I won a tourney today 20 something players (22 I believe but not sure). I won a Taiga and an Unlimited Sea. I'll do a quick tourney report:
I played the following decklist:
4 Lackey/Piley/Chief/Ringleader/Matron/Vial (these are out of the question)
4 Gempalm Incinerator (so insane, I would never run less than 4)
3 Relic of Progenitus (was nice, I was having problems with Goyfs and Tombstalkers in testing, these solved that nicely. They were very good and when they were useless I just cycled them and never cared)
2 Siege Gang Commander (2 is the right number in this list)
3 War Marshall (I loved them, they won me a ton of games. They were insane, I highly recommend them to everyone who can remember to pay the upkeep when they need to ;).
1 Stingscourger (I hate these but one was okay I guess)

4 Port (useful at times, they werent as spectacular as I had hoped but randomly useful)
4 Wasteland
23 Mountain (the right number for this list with 7 draw spells)
0 Fanatic, this is probably why I won today. These are awful, cut them seriously.

SB:
4 REB (good against Merfolk and Combo, I like these)
1 Relic (to round them out)
3 Pyrokinesis (I don't like them at all, going to cut these)
4 Chalice (never needed them, good to have them regardless)
1 Boartusk Liege (I wanted to run 4 and cut the Pyrokinesis, but I only had 1)
2 Goblin Tinkerer (never needed them)

I need to rethink the sideboard, it's going to include 4 Liege to deal with Plague, 4 REB, 4 Chalice and 1 Relic and 2 random slots.

Round 1: Merfolk
G1 I do my thing, he draws land I have like 20 goblins on board and alpha strike him.
G2 I fan 3 REBs, the 1 Kinesis I sided in, a War Marshal and a few lands. I dont really know what happened here but he hits Kira and my hand is kind of dead. I lose to his Vial and the beatings that proceed. I sided out the Relics because they suck in this match.
G3: I have 1000 goblins on board and he plays Propaganda, I REB he has FoW... I drop Siege Gang, and play around Sower the whole time (Vial @ 4) and win in an elegant way. I think I played this game really well, but my buddy Duncan thought I could have killed him earlier. I like to think I just played it safe and never let him have the chance to kill me off with a Jitte + Mutavault which he had (I had Port for it!)

Round 2: Enchantress.
0-2, you know how it goes...

Round 3: Enchantress AGAIN FFS!
He keeps a bad hand with 2 Savannah, I Waste first turn as I know Enchantress usually leads with basics, he must be mana screwed. He also thought a while before deciding to keep his hand so I played this well. I drop Lackey, he never hits a second manasource while I kill him
G2: he does his thing when he's on 2 or something (stupid Solitary Confinement)
G3: I get him down to low, he stabilizes with Confinement + Enchantress Presence, which he had to drop soon because of the pressure. Because of that he starts running out of gas and has only lands he has to sac his Confinement and I kill him.

Round 4: ANT
A bad matchup again I guess?
He keeps 2 bad hands, I kill him on turn 4 twice, NICE.

Round 5: Eva Green.
I misplay due to dehydration I guess and no fresh air. I'm still pissed at myself, I even missed a Vial trigger, I attacked with a Lackey into a 1/2 Goyf as I thought I had removed the yards with Relic (I even had the second Relic in my hand so it really shouldnt have happened). I lose 0-2 due to a lot of misplays. I should take better care of myself next time.

I somehow T8 with this record (only 22 players I guess..)

T8:
Some kind of ITF with Lorescale Coatls.
I have a good matchup and beat him, though I didn't really play all that well game 1 I did own him the second two. In the last game he made a misplay of taking over a tapped Warchief and not waiting untill my untap steps. He tries to undo his play but I tell him he can't. I win because of his sloppy play and the good matchup. He was a good player though, so he just had a brainfart I guess.

T4
Vs Eva Green again.
This time I drunk a lot of water and play extremely tight. I am rewarded as he makes some sloppy plays. War Marshal + Incinerator was insane.

Finals:
My opponent has to concede as he has to go, I had a good matchup anyway so I think I would have won. He was some kind of slow Rock deck.

Conclusion: yeah I only have a 5-2 record (should have been 6-1 though if I didn't play so sloppy). Goblins is good however, this list played extremely well. I am really happy with my result against all those bad matchups :).

Nessaja

06-20-2009, 09:59 PM

Grats on the finish, it's good to hear some positive news.

I must say I agree with you on Mogg War Marshall, as of now it looks like he's replacing the Mogg Fanatics, even though his role is entirely different, he fits nicely in the deck and has good synergy.

As for relic, I sort of disagree with your reasoning. You mention Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker being a problem, Tarmogoyf is a problem that relic doesn't fix and Tombstalker is much better dealt with by Stingscourger as is Phyrexian Dreadnought, Countryside Crusher and Lorescale Couatl and many other big fatties. That doesn't mean that Relic is a bad card, it has its uses in several matchups Loam and Dredge being the most dominant ones.

As for stingscourger, he also makes sure your Lackey connects when on the play against their 2 drop, Bob, Goyf or whatever they drop and has all advantages of being a goblin.

I'm not sure though, I'm currently testing with 4 Mogg War Marshals I'm just unsure if their powerlevel is good enough. They've been pretty decent at stalling and making sure that my Incinerator does enough damage (running 4 as well) . Seems like the Piledriver way (throw more goblins at a problem) seems to work quite decently.

Another card that has been great is the Boartusk Liege, every time I board him in he's been great to me, it's unfortunate this deck is so tight. It sort of makes a Pyroclasm less devastating then it could be it also makes your swarm of 1/1's a force to be reckoned with.

Current MB list for me is the same as yours with

-3 relic
+1 SGC
+1 Mogg War Marshal
+1 Sting

Anyway, food for thought.

GreenOne

06-21-2009, 06:42 AM

Mantis' list is quite strange, I have to admit it.
War marshal indeed works against goyfs and it has a wonderful sinergy with Piledriver and Incinerator.
Relics are usually a metagame concern, being a godsend against Tempo Thresh, Team America, Loam, Ichorid, etc. But as I can see, the only deck you played against that revealed Relics as relevant is Eva Green. Sure, there are some more, like enchantress (hitting only Replenish), ANT (hitting only IGG and Cabal Ritual), and ITF (hitting only intuition shenanigans, but you should have already won by that time), but against those relic is just sort of decent, nothing more. If I was you, I'd not play it next time in the same meta.

I'm currently testing this:

// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
2 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy

This version has the added bonus of being much more resilent against plague. You're usually siding out the 2 fanatics for Boartusk. This means that post SB I have a grand total of 4 Lackeys and 4 Matrons with thoughness 1, and 3 Boartusks to pump them. It works wonders against plague.

I'm yet undecided about fanatics. They're not fantastic anymore, but they provide a decent utility against a good number of things, like Confidant, Noble Hierarc, Bridges, etc and they're helping Gempalm if it's 1 dmg short. Against merfolk, for example, if that war marshal was a fanatic you could have just pinged Kira, and proceed to wrath the opponent with your REBs and such.
I can replace Mogg with War Marshal, but this way I might have too many 2cc (2 Tinkerers, 2 Stingscourger, 2 War Marshall, 4 Incinerators) and too few 1cc for the curve. I'll test it though.

I strongly recommend NOT to run the 4th Boartusk. You already have a 3of with 4 matrons and ringleaders to get them. the triple RRR is a mess with 8 colorless mana sources, so you really don't want a 2of in your starting grip.

About Anarchy: I'm undecided for this SB slot. I'm testing it cause it's unexpected, and it deals with a good number of things, actually.
A brief list includes:
- From DTB forum: War Monk, Pridemage, Humility, Moat, Elspeth, Soldier Tokens (decree), Knight of the reliquary, Oblivion Ring, Eternal Dragon...
- From Established decks: Progenitus (!!!), Solitary Confinament (and lots of other things from enchantress), Rafiq, everything in death and taxes, Circle of protection:red, Magus of the Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison, Plated Crystalline and Sinew slivers, ...

I'm quite sure I don't want to play 3, but 2, cause you don't need it ever before the 4th turn, and sometimes it's clunky if you want to use your mana denial. It's still in test though, and it's not THAT impressive.

What you guys suggest for my SB in its place? I'd like something to side against combo that's not dead in other matchups, or just conceed the combo matchup, and focus on a game deciding card against some specific matchup. Maybe Blood Moon, Price of Progress?

For the record, I also tested Spitebellows, and it was just quite good as spot removal for monored, but still worse than goblins in the same role, like Stingscourger, Incinerator, Fanatic or War Marshal.
Though I won one game with Spitebellows beatdown against triple plague.. :wink:

Nessaja

06-21-2009, 08:29 AM

I can replace Mogg with War Marshal, but this way I might have too many 2cc (2 Tinkerers, 2 Stingscourger, 2 War Marshall, 4 Incinerators) and too few 1cc for the curve. I'll test it though.

I don't think that both Stingscourgers and Incinerators are turn 2 drops by definition though. Only in the scenario where you can resolve a turn 1 lackey they are. More often then that you want to keep them in hand to deal with serious threats. Mogg War Marshall on the other hand is a very solid T2 drop in a lot of occasions.

I was looking at the REB's and found them quite alright, but more often then that I wanted to use them as anti-counters in which case a Vexing Shusher works just as good or better it seems.

I currently have

1 Sharpshooter
3 Boartusk Liege
3 Vexing Shushers
3 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis

Which seems to cover most of it, though I must admit Anarchy looks like it has a lot of uses as well (Moat, Humility).

GreenOne

06-21-2009, 08:34 AM

Which seems to cover most of it, though I must admit Anarchy looks like it has a lot of uses as well (Moat, Humility).
All I know is that looking at opponent's face, right after you destroyed their Progenitus with monored gobbos is priceless.

Mantis

06-21-2009, 11:15 AM

Relic aided me in 3 game wins, 2 against Eva Green and one against ITF. Turning their best card, Goyf, into a liability is awesome. Not to mention it cycles into the cards you really want to see so youdont have to run filler such as Fanatic. If I were to run the deck again I would only change the sb. Anarchy seems good, I think Ill run some of those next time if I can find room.
What about:
3 Liege
4 Chalice
4 REB
3 Anarchy
1 Relic

And there you see another advantage of Relic, clears up sideboard space. Also I dont like Pyrokinesis, I want it against Goblins and Elves and both dont see nearly enough play.

jjjoness'

06-21-2009, 11:18 AM

Mantis

06-21-2009, 02:10 PM

I understand that concern, but flipping over Fanatic usually isn't that exciting anyway as it's bad in general but especially bad in the lategame. Also, once I'm throwing my Ringleaders out there, it's hard to stop the onslaught spare for Plague or Moat or something and then it doesn't matter how many Goblins you flip anyway. That said, Relic not being a goblin sucks with Ringleader, but I found that the pro's outweighed the cons. Relic deals with the bane to Goblins existance and the reason Goblins is almost pushed out of the metagame entirely: Goyf. The fact that it's huge against Aggro Loam and Ichorid is just a nice bonus.

Anyway, I can understand anyone not wanting to run Relic, but I love it. I'll keep running it as it has proven itself worthy to me on many occasions.

dr4g0n

06-21-2009, 07:27 PM

I must say I agree with you on Mogg War Marshall, as of now it looks like he's replacing the Mogg Fanatics, even though his role is entirely different, he fits nicely in the deck and has good synergy.

I'm not sure though, I'm currently testing with 4 Mogg War Marshals I'm just unsure if their powerlevel is good enough. They've been pretty decent at stalling and making sure that my Incinerator does enough damage (running 4 as well) . Seems like the Piledriver way (throw more goblins at a problem) seems to work quite decently.

I'm going to quote numbers at you guys again and disagree that War Marshall's can replace Fanatics. While War Marshall's are undoubtedly good for dealing with Goyf and awesome synergy and such, they are not a one-drop. For Goblins to be a threat, I still maintain that you need to pose a threat right from turn 1 and that means running a minimum of 10 one-drops to give you a decent chance of drawing them in your opening hand.

On a different note, I would like to advertise a new goblin: Boros Recruit. I have been testing it in the place of Fanatic with a surprising amount of success. It completely rapes Keldon Marauders, Ball Lightning, Spark Elementals and those other randoms that burn decks like to throw at you. It helps to take a somewhat defensive route until I get Pyromancer out to accelerate into 20-ish points of damage. Don't toss him off, the first-strike is surprisingly useful.

Anyways, he can't be any worse than the other one-drops available right?:wink:

Nessaja

06-21-2009, 08:07 PM

For Goblins to be a threat, I still maintain that you need to pose a threat right from turn 1 and that means running a minimum of 10 one-drops to give you a decent chance of drawing them in your opening hand.
I agree, but as you said - a threat - that doesn't include a 1/1 first striker or any of the other crap around. And heck, even mogg fanatic started to be a borderline threat for a long time. He hasn't been what he used to be. I'd rather have an effective turn 2 drop then a half assed turn 1 drop just so you can curve out.

dr4g0n

06-21-2009, 08:52 PM

Eseph

06-21-2009, 09:19 PM

Maybe its just my metagame, but I run it because I've been running into a lot of burn lately, so Recruit solves a lot of problems. It's presence usually makes at least 6-8 cards dead in their hands, so I find it worthwhile. I'm just offering a suggestion especially as most of the other one-drops aren't really up to standard either.

What kind of awful burn are you playing against? Doesn't fallout kill him along with everything else preventing their creatures from landing? And how does he do anything to Marauders?

Anyways, for a more useful one drop, why not Goblin Grappler, I think someone brought it up earlier, but it is a nice little one drop, that doesn't get worse with more one drops (lackey). He clears paths for them, or piledrivers, and helps just walk through things like goyf, and he can pull utility creatures out of hiding. My money would be on him or prospector as alternatives to the goblin formerly known as "fantastic".

Goblin Snowman

06-21-2009, 11:47 PM

I've had decent success with Frenzied Goblin as a one drop. With Mongoose no longer being a legit threat, he serves as a decent drop early on who takes out a blocker later on.

Roman Candle

06-21-2009, 11:53 PM

I've had decent success with Frenzied Goblin as a one drop. With Mongoose no longer being a legit threat, he serves as a decent drop early on who takes out a blocker later on.

This seems like the best option. I always felt like Frenzied Goblin was overlooked. He makes a Goyf on the other side look silly, at least.

At any rate, he's better than Fanatic or Recruit.

Mantis

06-22-2009, 04:49 AM

Relic is the best option for dealing with Goyf at the 1CMC spot, nothing comes close. Relic won me the tournament while I'm quite certain I wouldn't have won that tourney if I played Frenzied Goblin instead. Also, Relic severely hindered the Fetchland Tendrills player when I was beating him down as I now basically stopped Ad Naus (constant pressure made his life pummel) and IGG so he only had Doomsday left which is quite hard to set up.

I'm not even convinced I'd run something like Frenzied Goblin over Fanatic. That said, I'm eager to hear the results and I'll be the first one to admit if my assesment was wrong. My advice to anyone is, give both War Marshall and Relic a shot in your maindeck if you have some spare testing time.

Bongo

06-23-2009, 07:20 AM

A few questions:

1. Is Chalice strong enough to merit a slot in the SB?
Against which matchups do you side it in?

2. Is artifact destruction in the SB necessary? If so, which one?

3. What are the bad matchups for Goblins *postboard* (accounting for both your deck as well as the opponents)?

Eldariel

06-23-2009, 08:09 AM

1. Is Chalice strong enough to merit a slot in the SB?
Against which matchups do you side it in?

My experience is that it is indeed strong enough to run still, although that depends vastly on how random opposition you face. I bring it in against Burn, Elves, Sligh-varieties (as long as they run low curve [that is, don't suck], obviously), Storm, Belcher (Chalice at 0 + LD + fast win is pretty much your best plan in both), and some Threshold-lists (the modern Countertop builds have a bit too varied CCs for it to be effective though).

It's also worthy of consideration against Enchantress (you'll need to mise to win anyways, and have semi-dead slots already), some Loam-decks (if you're mono-red, your chances of landing it against Lands.dec are fairly good, for example, and it's very strong especially since they're unlike to expect it from you).

2. Is artifact destruction in the SB necessary? If so, which one?

Necessary, no. Useful, sure. I'd frankly spend MD space with Tinkerers/Tin Streets rather than dedicate SB slots for it though. If you run green, Grips are obvious. Otherwise, no, other than possibly running an extra or two of your MD arti hate Goblins, I wouldn't run more.

I actually like Tinkerer a lot due to his power to shut down Countertop giving you additional tools to blow through the "lock" (they wish) if the game goes longer, while still dealing with Dreadnoughts, Shackles, opposing Vials, Needles on your Vials (happens occasionally post-board), Jittes (only reason you lose to Fish-type decks ever), and hell, Crucibles if those games go long and you'd rather not have your LD lose its sting. Eh, as you might notice, I quite like having arti removal.

3. What are the bad matchups for Goblins *postboard* (accounting for both your deck as well as the opponents)?

Combo is still a nightmare, although obviously Chalice suddenly makes it winnable without them mulling to 4. Generally, combo goes "Win G2 on the play with Chalice+Lackey, and hope to mise G1 or G3." Given that your kill isn't that much slower than theirs, mising is certainly doable.

Other than that, stuff that hates you. If you play against Canadian Thresh with 3-4 SB Pyroclasms, chances are you won't be winning (of course, as most Tempo Thresh builds are cutting down on Pyroclasms, your life becomes much easier). Chalice has a real chance to be a difference-maker here, though it's a pity laying it at 2 isn't a realistic option, since that would truly cut down the dangerous cards (Tarmogoyf, Pyroclasm, Fire//Ice).

If you play against Countertop with 4 SB Plagues and a relevant number of Lackey-answers, your best gameplan is suddenly "Stick a Vial and destroy all their mana." Although as their manabase is a trainwreck, that's not actually entirely impossible, and very few of them can spare the space for 4 Plagues (again, one Plague isn't GG or anything so they really need a double to KO you).

Then there are Ritual-decks, which aren't really bad per ce, but they can mise vs. you with those "Turn 1 Ritual - Plague, turn 2 Ritual - Plague, oh you thought we were gonna PLAY?" hands.

Enchantress still sucks unless you run like...Tranquil Domain or something.

Then there's a bunch of Established decks (I guess I already covered Enchantress) you'd really rather not face like Mono-White Control, Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, the like. Basically decks built to beat you. Luckily Gobs aren't dominant enough for decks solely built to beat you to exist, but that doesn't stop a bunch of Tier 2 decks from having a good match-up vs. you, especially if the designs are a bit older and have thus heavily accounted for Goblin-presence.

Short of it: Combo and decks that hate you hard while being coinflips pre-board/ones that have sufficiently resilient manabases to live to drop their hate, and sufficient dig to find it.

Eseph

06-23-2009, 08:19 AM

A few questions:

1. Is Chalice strong enough to merit a slot in the SB?
Against which matchups do you side it in?

I brought up Chalice earlier in conjunction with Food Chain Gobs, as I run Chrome Mox, and Ancient Tomb, so Chalice is easier to resolve at 2, where it tends to do a large amount of good against plenty of decks (sligh, zoo, elves, most combos). In vial gobs it could make a reasonable sideboard choice, as Eldariel stated, though I'd think it would be more meta dependent. Bonus for vial gobs is taking advantage of the Ports already in the list, that work well at keeping the opponent off plays with chalice.

GreenOne

06-23-2009, 08:56 AM

I still don't know about chalice.
We're likely to lose horribly anyway against Storm combo, even with chalices. You already want to board 4 Relic of Progenitus against tempo thresh, are you serously siding out 8 goblins for chalices and relics? And siding in chalices @1 + 4 1cc spells doesn't seem tech.
Against zoo, they still have pridemages to fuck with your chalice, and you're already siding Pyrokinesis.

You surely want it against burn and maybe goyf sligh, but that's it.

I'm still not sure if its worth it, but still don't know what else might take its place (at least in monored).

Bongo

06-23-2009, 09:14 AM

Thanks for the thorough and quick reply!

My experiences with Chalice have been a bit disappointing. It seems nice in theory, but in actual tournament games, I rarely sided them in. Maybe I'm fortunate that there isn't a lot of Storm combo played, but then I would switch decks anyway. Against Elves and Sligh-like decks, I prefer Pyrokinesis, as a second turn Chalice might be too late and RG Sligh can play around it. Maybe there's something I don't see.

Tinkerer is good, but the problem I've encountered is that the summoning sickness is a severe drawback, especially when you're facing something like Shackles or Jitte. Is Shattering Spree an acceptable option for MonoRed?
The theory behind it is: Most decks that pack dangerous artifacts are also running counters, so you want to make sure your artifact hate resolves.

So, for a MonoRed version, what kind of SB would you recommend?
Currently I run:

3 Boartusk Liege (has been good against Plague and Pyroclasm)
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 REB
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Is there a better silver-bullet Goblin than Sharpshooter?
Also, what's your opinion on Price of Progress?

GreenOne

06-23-2009, 09:30 AM

Mantis

06-23-2009, 09:39 AM

With my list I am currently 3-0 in matches against combo. I think only few people on this planet are competent enough to play combo effectively, thus we actually stand a pretty good chance. Pair that with my REBs sideboard and the fact that I run Port, the new rules nuking LED + Mystical + Ad Naus and I don't think the matchup is the nightmare Eldariel and GreenOne claim. I once read an article from Dave Price where he described he was not afraid of CoP Red with Sligh, similairly I am not afraid of ANT. That said, its probably not in our favor, but Chalice and REB definately give you a good shot.

Enchantress is a bad MU no denying that, I hope 2 or 3 Anarchies can shore that MU up.

My take on the SB is vastly different from the norm here. I build my maindeck to beat the most common decks in the format; hence the Relics main. I build my sideboard to beat the decks I have a bad matchup against. The matchups where I'm even against or where I have a positive matchup, I hope to win on the back of playskill, hence no Pyrokinesis. This explains my preference for REB, Chalice, Boartusk Liege and now Anarchy.

There are no artifacts I am really scared of spare Dreadnought. If it starts showing up in huge numbers again I will consider Tinkerers main/side. I have faced Vedalken Shackles a few times but always managed to play around it and win despite Shackles taking over Warchief.

GreenOne

06-23-2009, 09:57 AM

I am not afraid of ANT. That said, its probably not in our favor, but Chalice and REB definately give you a good shot.
Well, hoping to face noobs is not really my plan to win :tongue: but I guess with 8 SB slots devoted to combo things appear a lot more fair. However, I don't have all that SB space. I got something like 3 slots to work with.

EDIT: I'm testing again with a couple Relics maindeck, with this list:

// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
2 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 Open slots

Relic proved to be quite good, actually.

kidsmokin

06-23-2009, 10:01 PM

TheCramp

06-24-2009, 04:01 PM

I am testing 3 Dystopias side. Anarchy does clear the board, and is way better against Elspeth, but a one sided abyss is pretty hot. along with warren weirding and Stingscourger you can pretty effectively clear a path. Also, How are people liking Boartusk from the side?

GreenOne

06-24-2009, 06:26 PM

Is Rw still worthwhile? It seems like I'm hearing a lot about mono-R, Rb, and etc, but not anything anymore about Rw. Is it viable anymore? Or out of vogue? I haven't kept up with the archetype at all...
White offers some disenchant effects and some non-goblin removal at the cost of splashing a color. Once you're splashing, opening your manabase to stifle/waste, shy not just splash 2 colors and get the best goblin removl (Weirding) and best disenchant effect (Krosan Grip, Tin Street)? I don't see white being the optimal splash right now.

I am testing 3 Dystopias side. Anarchy does clear the board, and is way better against Elspeth, but a one sided abyss is pretty hot. along with warren weirding and Stingscourger you can pretty effectively clear a path. Also, How are people liking Boartusk from the side?
I was playing it too in a Rb version with Ports. It was quite difficult to reach the second Black mana. However, it might work for you.
Boartusk is quite good, at least in the monored version. Never tested it in the Rb splash.

stereosound

06-25-2009, 12:34 PM

Aha I just came back to magic, glad to see people have an active topic here discussing my favorite deck (: So much has changed though.

Question: why is no one running kiki-jiki anymore? I mean I've always been a competitive (but casual) player, is he just not tourney quality? Also I figured people would be more willing to run prospectors instead of fanatics with the new M10 rules changes, but I guess people bank on getting their warchiefs out with vials/lackeys and not wasting their turn 2 on it. I've actually won a few games with Boggart Shenanigans (which no one runs lol, but I like 1 of)+sharpshooter+prospector, usually fueled with ringleader. Granted it's a lot of cards to come up with, but I like the alternative win if my gobs can't get through.

I haven't had a chance to playtest rb but I'll give it a shot this week and if findings are good I'll post.

true story

06-25-2009, 02:39 PM

here's why people no longer run Kiki jiki... You're in top deck mode with nothing in play, you draw Kiki Jiki, wouldn't a Seige Gang have been way better? Yes true story.

stereosound

06-25-2009, 03:32 PM

here's why people no longer run Kiki jiki... You're in top deck mode with nothing in play, you draw Kiki Jiki, wouldn't a Seige Gang have been way better? Yes true story.

Good point. I just read through the last 40 pages or so here so I think I'm caught up now, sorry about the trigger-finger post.

Here's my current decklist, I'll be testing it this weekend:

Creatures:
2x Earwig Squad
3x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie

Spells:
4x Warren Weirding
4x Aether Vial

Lands:
4x Auntie's Hovel
4x Blood Crypt
8x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Boartusk Liege
2 Anarchy
2 REB

(I am too poor for badlands + fetchlands, more important things to buy atm)

My playtests have shown strong, I wish I could fit some sharpshooters and Frogtossers in there (and maybe another SGC) but I'll have to deal. Also still haven't tested out Stingscourgers. It might even be better to put it back to monored, replace the earwigs with prospectors (8 first turn drops sucks so hard), wort with SCG, and warrens with scourgestingers, thereby fixing my mana issues. I'll have to play around with it and give it a try.

Shriekmaw

06-25-2009, 04:28 PM

here's why people no longer run Kiki jiki... You're in top deck mode with nothing in play, you draw Kiki Jiki, wouldn't a Seige Gang have been way better? Yes true story.

People just don't play goblins anymore which I don't understand. It still has a good game against most of the field and beats the piss out of merfolk.

~True Story~

Waikiki

06-25-2009, 04:31 PM

I recently started to pick up the mono red list. I've been kicking ass on mws to most decks actually I really love the list and will be picking up the cards irl.

Tacosnape

06-25-2009, 04:50 PM

After a multiple day vacation of playing and playing and playing with my RB list, here's where my list currently stands.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Gemstone Caverns

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Frogtosser Banneret
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thoughtseize
4 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus

Four tiny little screwaround tournaments got Goblins a win and three top 4's, where it lost to Landstill, Survival, and Magnivore.

Gemstone Caverns was amazing all week. The ratio of times I got to start with it on the draw versus the times it hurt me for being colorless was over 2-1, and overall I found it to be a hugely positive addition, largely negating the strong tempo boosts I'd have to fight through otherwise.

I decided I wanted a Tinkerer after having occasional problems with artifacts ranging from Merfolk's Vials/Jittes to DS's Chalices to Landstill's Mishra's Factory (Tinkerer is GREAT for this when you lose Port!) to random crap like Isochron Scepter. It's been pretty good so far.

The 6 slots for Gempalm/Frogtosser kept bouncing from 4/2 to 2/4 to 3/3 all weekend. It's at 3/3 until I get more testing in. Both were solid all week, and both make each other better (Gempalm's a decent fighter when he starts costing one mana).

Needle was strong all weekend. If you aren't splashing for Grip, run this. I was able to shut down Survivals, Factories, Deeds, Elspeths, Garruks, Jaces, Jittes, SOFI's, Scepters, Mutavaults, and even Fetchlands in matches where I needed more mana disruption. I liked it as an all-purpose answer to all kinds of things.

Pyrokinesis was as godly as ever. A brief experiment to replace it with Tarfire quickly told me I needed to quit designing decks after downing a lot of Admiral Nelson's, and Pyrokinesis quickly recovered it's slot.

Thoughtseize and Relic of Progenitus were both solid. Relic could easily be the 4 over Needle depending on what I expected to face. Relic was strong against Survival and Ichorid, but not really useful against much else.

I did also learn that Relic's less of the auto-include for the graveyard slot than it used to be. Relic was once or twice too slow to stop Ichorid in testing, and shrinking Goyfs was less of a problem than it used to be. That said, the cantripping makes it probably the best option still, as my build's too controlling to warrant it being Leyline, Extirpate sucks in aggressive decks, and Crypt is just less than spectacular sometimes.

Amon Amarth

06-25-2009, 05:09 PM

@Tacosnape: Have you tried out Cabal Therapy instead of Thoughtseize? I've always preferred Therapy due to just being good with it and reading signals.

Tacosnape

06-25-2009, 05:15 PM

@Tacosnape: Have you tried out Cabal Therapy instead of Thoughtseize? I've always preferred Therapy due to just being good with it and reading signals.

Given that I have the reputation in Alabama of being the Jesus of any card that says "Name a Card" on it, especially Therapy after winning a 30+ person cash tournament on a series of perfect blind Therapies, you'd think I'd favor Therapy more. But my build, especially without Fanatic? I strangely didn't like it. I had trouble flashing it back fast enough for it to be better.

If I were going to run Therapy, I'd change things around and run Mogg War Marshal, who just screams Therapy synergy.

GreenOne

06-26-2009, 04:01 AM

Gemstone Caverns was amazing all week. The ratio of times I got to start with it on the draw versus the times it hurt me for being colorless was over 2-1, and overall I found it to be a hugely positive addition, largely negating the strong tempo boosts I'd have to fight through otherwise.
Caverns indeed seems amazing in this list, with that good number of 2cc drops.
Going first turn Banneret, Second turn Ringleader seems just too good to pass by. :wink:
If I was playing black, I'd play your version.

ScatmanX

06-26-2009, 09:29 AM

@Tacos: When do you side Seize in? combo? In what matches is it relevant to side it in, and take creatures from their hand?

Also, dont you miss CotV? I just cant have a SB without 4 of them.

Avatara

06-26-2009, 09:44 AM

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thoughtseize
4 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus

Strange... I guess there is no Engineered Plague in your area? Last tournament I played with 4 Cabal Therapies in the Sideboard. I faced 2 Eva Green decks but Cabal Therapy didn't hit any Engineered Plagues. Instead they top decked them constantly. They have enough removal to survive your early rush.

Thoughtseize wont be any good with Plagues... in my experience it's the plagues in their deck that kill your and not the ones in their opening hand.

Charlatan

06-26-2009, 09:46 AM

Why care about combo matches?

I prefer to improove my matches against agroo, control and aggro control MU.

Tacosnape

06-26-2009, 10:36 AM

@Tacos: When do you side Seize in? combo? In what matches is it relevant to side it in, and take creatures from their hand?

Also, dont you miss CotV? I just cant have a SB without 4 of them.

While I realize this isn't as specific an answer as you're looking for, I side in Thoughtseize whenever it's better than something else in my deck. More simplified, it comes in against control, combo, and goblin hate. More often than not, it's going to come in for a removal Goblin. I won't ever side it in for the explicit purpose of hitting creatures, and I'll rarely bring it in against threat-heavy decks unless they have something I have no chance of dealing with outside of Thoughtseize.

Against Landstill, for example, I'd bring in Thoughtseize and Needle rather than the weak removal I have. Against Storm Combo, out goes Warren Weirding, in comes Thoughtseize. Against Enchantress? Gempalm Incinerator goes for Thoughtseize.

As for Chalice, truth be told? I've never been a fan of Chalice in sideboard. Ever. That said, if any list is actually going to run Chalice, this is probably the best one ever short of Chrome Mox/Tomb lists, as it can actually Chalice for 1 without too much worry if need be, and can drop it turn one on the draw. I might try this out.

Strange... I guess there is no Engineered Plague in your area? Last tournament I played with 4 Cabal Therapies in the Sideboard. I faced 2 Eva Green decks but Cabal Therapy didn't hit any Engineered Plagues. Instead they top decked them constantly. They have enough removal to survive your early rush.

Thoughtseize wont be any good with Plagues... in my experience it's the plagues in their deck that kill your and not the ones in their opening hand.

And what exactly is R/B supposed to do about Plague? Run crap like Mad Auntie, Goblin King, Boartusk Liege, or Dralnu's Crusade? No thanks. If you'll recall Goblin history, for a long time certain builds of Goblins' solution to Engineered Plague was just to ignore it, and if you got double plagued out you got double plagued out. Granted, this is less of a sure thing than it used to be as Goblins wins far fewer game 1's than it used to, but there you go.

Saying Thoughtseize is no good versus Plague isn't entirely accurate. It will hit a Plague that's in your opponent's hand, period. It sucks if it's on the board, and it sucks if they topdeck it, but such is the nature of discard. At least if it's already on the board, Seize will hit whatever's coming next that gives your sickly goblins a chance to still fight through it. Thoughtseize will hit Plague if it's in their hand, and if it isn't? You'll probably get a nice Tombstalker, Goyf, or pesky LD spell instead.

If you're overly concerned about Plague, then add a Wort, Boggart Auntie in the Tinkerer slot, and move the Tinkerer to board in place of Needle/Relic #4. (Or have the Wort in board and the Tink main, whichever) Wort's pretty solid against Plague, letting you sometimes win against a black-based aggro deck by virtue of it being too big for Plague, their removal being unable to hit it because it's black, and recurring Weirding to keep the board clear.

no_chi

06-27-2009, 05:38 AM

Mantis

06-27-2009, 05:50 AM

Huh? Where did you get that from? Looks pretty insane if that is true on first sight tho.

GreenOne

06-27-2009, 05:59 AM

We have the child of Goblin King and Goblin Warchief:

Goblin Chieftain 1RR
Creature — Goblin R
Haste
Other Goblin creatures you control get +1/+1 and have haste.
“We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war.”
2/2
Sam Wood

Any thoughts on this? Is it worth maindeck slots? Does it count as Goblin Warchief 5-8? Although no cost reduction is HUGE. How would you compare this to Warchief, King, Mad Auntie, Boartusk Liege and the like? Discuss.
I'm impressed. Just yesterday I was thinking, so wtf with goblins being the only tribe with off color Lord effects?

Haste is quite good as an ability, but the 3cc slot is a bit clogged. It might work as Warchief 5-6 in monored, but he doesn't have haste on its own, and doesn't reduce our costy spells.
The +1/+1 is nice, but it's not huge in this format:
- Our goblins aren't going to kill dudes being 3/3s. The only relevant cards with 3 thoughness are Mongoose, Nacatl and Ape.
- Our goblins aren't going to survive Pyroclasm anyway.
- There will still be 4 warchiefs and 4 ringleaders in the deck, so haste might be kinda redundant.

That said, this guy might be worth as a maindeck solution to E.Plague, to free some SB spaces. Liege is A LOT better in this role though.

Amon Amarth

06-27-2009, 06:07 AM

If I would play him at all it would most likely be as Goblin Warchief number five. He would be a decent tutor target unlike Goblin Pyromancer he doesn't WoG you. Still I'm not sure there is any room at all for another decent Goblin. Maybe he would have a place in Mono Red. But R/B is really tight already with Weirdings eating up slots.

no_chi

06-27-2009, 08:13 AM

@ GreenOne: It has built-in Haste. :smile:

What would you guys replace in the maindeck in order to fit the Chieftain? Or are they SB material, or not even good enough to make the cut? I'm thinking if mono-red would go 4 Warchief, 4 Chieftain, but that might be too much. Seems like a good anti-Plague card though.:cool:

scrow213

06-27-2009, 09:05 AM

Eseph

06-27-2009, 10:04 AM

I was just going to hop over and see if you guys had picked up on the chieftain, I would think the best use of him would be as warchief 5-6, or as a 2/3, or 3/3 split.

As to how useful he is, that just boils down to which part of warchief was the important part, the reduced cost, or the haste, or the combination of the 2. Personally I think he definitely deserves a spot in here, he fits in King for added protection/beating whie still giving us the haste of a chief. Need to test it, but I would actually be interested in a 3/2 split in favour of Chieftain. What to take out I dunno though.

Sidenote: This guy makes for one hell of an alpha strike with goblins already on the table.

Eldariel

06-27-2009, 11:00 AM

He's much better than Goblin King vs. most of the meta, so the builds that have run King should make the simple swap (save for those that run it as a one-of tutor target vs. Sligh & Tempo Thresh).

That said, as most lists haven't, the question gets hairier. Haste is definitely an important tool in Goblins' arsenal, but I'd still argue that Warchief's power comes from the combination, not one or the other alone. Being able to go Haste > Pile > Pile with 5 mana open, hitting for 11 out of an empty board is just the thing that makes the deck able to steal as many wins as it does. Getting only one Pile and hitting for 6 isn't quite as radical.

That said, if this guy sticks around, it's going to wreak even more havoc than Warchief. I'm probably going to test one and see how I like it. I've really wanted a mass pump effect in the main for those "Tutor, play, think I win?" turns. It's definitely worthwhile to note that in cases where you need both, more muscle and swing this turn, Chieftain gives you both in one fetch. Warbeef would require additional Piles and frankly, it's not guaranteed for Piles to get through. But if you have a horde of mooks, Matron > Chieftain > whatever > swing is very likely to get through for tons and probably end the game.

Tacosnape

06-27-2009, 12:05 PM

Chieftain is -not- a Warchief substitute. Period. Cost Reduction >> +1/+1.

That said, I can't believe we're getting a new Goblin that isn't terrible.

Is Chieftain still fantastic? Most definitely. Plague just got a little less frightening. I don't feel the need to run beyond 2, as I already have 4 haste-all guys and 6 should be plenty.

Here's my post M10 R/B Build.

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Gemstone Caverns

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Frogtosser Banneret

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thoughtseize
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer

(nameless one)

06-27-2009, 04:02 PM

i think the new goblin lord has a place in mono-red builds (the mono-red shell has that 3 open slot)

B/R goblins on the other hand... not so sure.

on the other note, has anyone ever playtested bloodmark mentor on mono-red builds?

Mantis

06-28-2009, 04:28 AM

The problem with the new lord is that you can't really afford to bring your curve up even more. He isn't stronger than Siege Gang, Ringleader, Matron or Warchief so maybe we can afford to squeeze one in or a couple in the sb but I don't see this as more than that really.

Ectoplasm has tested Bloodmark Mentor I believe. If I recall correctly he was quite pleased with the card but I'd send him a PM just to make sure. I'm not sure how relevant First Strike is right now, see your 1/1's are going to win the battle against Goyf anyway regardless of First Strike. It's good with Piley though, but if my opponent is in a spot where he has to trade his Goyf for my Piley I'll likely win anyway. That said, the card looks like a beating in the mirror so if Goblins is on the rise again I could see making room for a Bloodmark Mentor.

Ectoplasm

06-28-2009, 05:18 AM

I ran bloodmark mentor for a couple of months, brought it to a few tournaments and it was decent, though not overwhelming. Note I ran it in RGB not monored. Sometimes it's the nuts, vialing it in after blockers are declared to turn a random combatphase into a plague wind and sometimes it's a dead topdeck. In the end I cut it because it smells like win-more but I certainly consider running it again in the merfolk-infested Dutch metagame right now.

So yeah, good card but it suffers from the kiki-jiki effect a bit, though not as win-more as kiki or mad auntie.

Edit: Also worth noting is that the card itself is a 1/1 first strike without any help from anything which enables some cute tricks as well, in combination with sharpshooter or mogg fanatic.

Mantis

06-28-2009, 07:22 AM

GreenOne

06-28-2009, 07:24 AM

A little of math.

Being able to go Haste > Pile > Pile with 5 mana open, hitting for 11 out of an empty board is just the thing that makes the deck able to steal as many wins as it does. Getting only one Pile and hitting for 6 isn't quite as radical.

Warchief+Pile+Pile= 12 dmg
Chieftain+Pile+Pile= 8 dmg
Warhief+Pile= 5 dmg
Chieftain+Pile= 2 dmg

But if you have a horde of mooks, Matron > Chieftain > whatever > swing is very likely to get through for tons and probably end the game.
Matron+Ringleader+Matron+Warchief= 6 dmg
Matron+Ringleader+Matron+Chieftain= 7 dmg

The built in haste makes a HUGE difference, even more when the guy is alone.

Eseph

06-28-2009, 07:34 AM

Warchief+Pile+Pile= 12 dmg
Chieftain+Pile+Pile= 8 dmg
Warhief+Pile= 5 dmg
Chieftain+Pile= 2 dmg

Care to explain the context on those? as in every situation the Chieftain one should be dealing 1-2 more damage than the warchief... The only difference is how many you can play in one turn. Proper math on that (not having any idea of context) would be:

Warchief+Pile+Pile= 12 dmg
Chieftain+Pile+Pile= 14 dmg
Warhief+Pile= 5 dmg
Chieftain+Pile= 6 dmg

And how does built in haste make any difference from Warchief, which also has built in haste?

GreenOne

06-28-2009, 07:45 AM

Care to explain the context on those?
That's why I quoted Eldariel. He was referring to playing Warchief+Pile+Pile with 5 mana open and swing for the win.
You can do this with chieftain too, but it costs 7 instead fo 5 and does 8 damage instead of 12. Pretty inefficient compared.

This just means that it should not be compared with Warchief. The card have to be compared with:
- the other kings: Boartusk Liege, Mad Auntie, Goblin King
- with the cards in the slots he's fightning for: Relic, War Marshall, Tinkerer, Stingscourger, Frogtosserer, Tin Street, Fanatic, Prospector, whatever.

Eldariel

06-28-2009, 07:55 AM

That's why I quoted Eldariel. He was referring to playing Warchief+Pile+Pile with 5 mana open and swing for the win.
You can do this with chieftain too, but it costs 7 instead fo 5 and does 8 damage instead of 12. Pretty inefficient compared.

This just means that it should not be compared with Warchief. The card have to be compared with:
- the other kings: Boartusk Liege, Mad Auntie, Goblin King
- with the cards in the slots he's fightning for: Relic, War Marshall, Tinkerer, Stingscourger, Frogtosserer, Tin Street, Fanatic, Prospector, whatever.

...I suppose you missed the fact that it has Haste. Here is its ability box:
"Haste
Other Goblin creatures you control get +1/+1 and have haste."

Because it doesn't buff itself, they found it easier to give it Haste as a separate instance. I can see how it'd be confusing, but yeah, it has Haste. You're right though, War -> Pile -> Pile is 12, of course. And for the same mana, you can only play Chieftain + Pile, which is 6.

Ectoplasm

06-28-2009, 07:56 AM

Bloodmark Mentor is the epitome of win more against Merfolk actually. See, once we hit a fair amount of Goblins there is no way you can lose to Merfolk if you play correctly. There are two ways in which we can lose to Folks:if they hit Vial and follow it up with Standstill while we have no Vial or if they go threat and then proceed to counter everything we attempt to play. Bloodmark Mentor does nothing to stop either of Merfolks plans, it's only good when you can sling Matrons and cast Piledrivers anyway in which case you really should not lose.

Basically, I generally do not like 1 ofs that reinforce your board position as Toolbox targets as once you are in the position to resolve Matron, isn't fetching either Chief, Piledriver, Incinerator, Ringleader or Siege Gang almost always the better play anyway? I even cut the one-of Stingscourger in my list as I was never fetching it and it sucked every time I drew it.

They can always beat you by throwing a jitte in your face or just playing more men, since they do have their mutavaults and counters and lords. In which case it's nice to have an advantage in the form of bloodmark mentor since they have no real way of getting rid of it, besides aforementioned jitte and echoing truth postboard.
Like I said he is generally an unneeded win-more card and I'm not advocating him, since I don't even play him anymore myself, I'm just going out on a limb and theorycrafting here since people seem to be interested in him and he wasn't that bad.

So, short version: IMO in today's meta, mentor is solid against merfolk since they have no good way to remove him, awful against zoo since he'll get his face burned off at the wrong time, mediocre against 8-thread.dec because he's hit-or-miss and often a dead card even though he helps fighting goyfs and alright against a host of other decks like eva green, affinity, dragon stompy etc.

GreenOne

06-28-2009, 08:18 AM

...I suppose you missed the fact that it has Haste. Here is its ability box:
"Haste
Other Goblin creatures you control get +1/+1 and have haste."
Yeah , I missed it, and wow, this thing is getting hot.

As it is, I'd definetly find 1+ maindeck slots (probably 2-3) in monored, and get to free some SB spaces now taken by Boartusk (maybe I'll leave it as a 1of though to deal with double plague and Pyroclasm).

Upping the curve should probably mean to start playing Caverns again as a 1-2of and going up to 24 lands. I'll relegate to SB again those 2 relics in the MD, and probably cut the 1of Fanatic I'm still playing.
Here's the list I will probably run:
// Lands
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Matron
0-2 Goblin Tinkerer (meta dependant)
2 Stingscourger
2-4 Goblin Chieftain (depends on how strong the testing reveal he is)

// Spells
4 AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 0-1 Boartusk Liege (depends on how much Chieftain works against Plague and Pyroclasm)
SB: 2-3 Anarchy
SB: 2-4 Pithing Needle or Chalice of the Void

no_chi

06-28-2009, 11:10 AM

If only Chieftain costs 2R instead of 1RR. (I can dream.:wink:) As of now, I'm thinking of replacing 2 Frogtossers with 2 Chieftains, and removing my singleton Fanatic to fit the 4th Piledriver in.

Here's how my Rbg list would look like after M10 is released:

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Rishadan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Frogtosser Banneret
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

SB:
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Earwig Squad
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
3 Perish (random SB slots, maybe replaced later on by combo hate)
1 Tranquil Domain

Just a question, since I don't face a lot of Loam decks. How do you guys board for Loam matchups? and CounterTop decks? Thanks.:cool:

Avatara

06-28-2009, 06:52 PM

Vial Goblins! (Post M10)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
14 [8E] Mountain (3)
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
2 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

This is my mono red list after a day of play testing. I don't have enough words to express how much I like Goblin Chieftain. Thank you Wizards!

Here are a few points I would like to discuss/comment:

1. 4 Ports was to much in combination with 2 Gemstone Caverns and the Chieftain's double R cost.
2. 2 Gemstone caverns is really great.
3. 2 Boartusk in the board combined with the 3 Chieftains seem to make Plague concerns history.
4. Sideboard seems to be very universal and balanced but can it be improved?
5. I really like Goblin Pyromancer... it's one of the few tutor targets that actually wins games where Sharpshooter or Siege-Gang can not.

GreenOne

06-28-2009, 07:50 PM

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
14 [8E] Mountain (3)
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

I believe a 24th land is needed in a deck with so many 3-4 cc dudes.
I was thinking about cutting a port for the second caverns too. The double red is going to be needed on turn 3 a lot more.

SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

[...]

4. Sideboard seems to be very universal and balanced but can it be improved?

Are the 2 Boartusk needed now with the MD Chieftain? I'd cut at least one in favour of the 4th Relic or Kinesis.

5. I really like Goblin Pyromancer... it's one of the few tutor targets that actually wins games where Sharpshooter or Siege-Gang can not.
And it's quite often an awful topdeck. It might be better now, with more haste-men in the deck. Pyromancer + Chieftain alone = 11 dmg out of nowhere.

Avatara

06-28-2009, 09:29 PM

I believe a 24th land is needed in a deck with so many 3-4 cc dudes.
I get screwed more by to much colorless mana than by not enough red sources to be honest. I understand your concern but I personally believe that you don't need 24 lands unless you run 3 or more Siege-Gangs, fetch lands and/or Worts. To be honest I think 2 Siege-Gang is to much... it's a tutor target... 2 is to less to rely on turn two Lackeys->Siege-Gangs. With the Chief we gain even more mid game strength. My money is on the midgame rather than a lucky early draw. Dropping Siege-Gang Commander to 1 should lower the mana hungry nature of this deck. I haven't tested this yet... it's only theory.

I was thinking about cutting a port for the second caverns too. The double red is going to be needed on turn 3 a lot more.
I might replace the above mentioned Siege-Gang Commander with a Skirk Prospector to smooth the curve even further. More than two Gemstone Caverns simply isn't an option.

Are the 2 Boartusk needed now with the MD Chieftain? I'd cut at least one in favour of the 4th Relic or Kinesis. Haven't tested with less to be honest. I took 2 in the board from the start 'coz I'm paranoid about getting knocked out by 2 Engineered Plagues. The Chief doesn't replace Boartusk as the latter is immune to Smother and Firespout. I don't always want to spend a Matron on getting a Boartusk Liege. I wanna pressure them enough with other creatures to draw removal away from the the pumpers.

And it's quite often an awful topdeck. It might be better now, with more haste-men in the deck. Pyromancer + Chieftain alone = 11 dmg out of nowhere.
I never liked him either... but I gave the guy a new chance and I'm really impressed. It's as you say... more haste and pumps. This guy steals games.

HdH_Cthulhu

06-29-2009, 07:45 AM

I dont like your deck.

1. 4 Ports was to much in combination with 2 Gemstone mines and the Chieftain's double R cost.
2. 2 Gemstone caverns is really great.
3. 2 Boartusk in the board combined with the 3 Chieftains seem to make Plague concerns history.
4. Sideboard seems to be very universal and balanced but can it be improved?
5. I really like Goblin Pyromancer... it's one of the few tutor targets that actually wins games where Sharpshooter or Siege-Gang can not.

1&2.) As The GreenOne sayed your mana base needs work. I would at least run 23 lands (3 ports, 4 waste, 16 mountains.) And Gemstone is bad!

3.) Boartusk also seems medicor at best. If you want more lords, wich is a bad idea i think (i run 1), play more chieftains.

4.) I like your SB! Anarchy is debatable

5.) YES!

EDIT: My cards for m10 instead of my 3 moggs
1 Chieftain,
1 Relic,
4th incinerator,

stereosound

06-29-2009, 08:11 AM

Gemstone caverns to me seems a little less useful in monored simply because you don't take advantage of the every other mana option. It's saved my ass quite a few times (besides the turn two 3-mana) just by producing a black for me.

Dark_Cynic87

06-29-2009, 11:04 AM

1maarten1

06-29-2009, 11:16 AM

So is Chieftain going in, or is it good enough? Is Warchief better or worse? What's replacing Fanatic, or is it going to stay even though it sucks hardcore after M10? Just a few questions. It's in my Gauntlet, and I like to keep my gauntlet as up-to-date as possible. Thanks for your help.

Pce,

--DC

I think in Mono R chieftain is very nice, but warchief is always better since Cost reduce>>> +1/+1. I cut Fanatics, i used to run 1 for tutor if needed, but i cut it since chieftain was printed. I Think there is place for 1/2 chieftains in a R/B or R/g/b or whatever list. But since im more a fan of mono R i dont have to much to say bout that.

~Maarten

enemyofarsenic

06-29-2009, 11:44 AM

Skirk Prospectors for Mogg Fanatics =]

Mantis

06-29-2009, 01:59 PM

Warchief is better than Chieftain for sure. I can't make room for more than 1 though without butchering my curve or getting double haste effects. I'm not even sure I want one, don't get your hopes up guys, I really don't think the printing of Chieftain will impact the deck all that much.

On another note, as expressed by Smmenen in his article today, Dreadstill was top dog at the recent SCG 5K tournament. And rightly so, the deck is still amazing and one of the few decks I actually have a hard time beating. Maybe we need to value Tinkerer a bit higher in the future if this trend picks up. Oh and don't tell me Weirding deals with Dreadnought because that's just a lie, no sane Dreadstill player will throw his Dreadnought out there if he couldn't protect it (with Spell Snare, FoW or CB/Top). At least you can drop Tinkerer through a Vial or just play it before they get the chance to play Dreadnought. I'm currently thinking of making room for either 1 or 2 of these depending on how I like the Chieftain.

ScatmanX

06-29-2009, 02:40 PM

Agains´t URx Dreadstill, you have Weirdings, Tinker, REB, and you can also have 1 King, to give your guys unblockabilitie. You could also run Meekstone, so he would only attack you once.

Mantis

06-29-2009, 02:57 PM

Agains´t URx Dreadstill, you have Weirdings, Tinker, REB, and you can also have 1 King, to give your guys unblockabilitie. You could also run Meekstone, so he would only attack you once.
Weirding and King are all very poor answers to Dreadnought. I especially hate Weirding because they just activate Factory in response or just counter it. King isn't very hot as your team still dies to Clasm and they usually only have 1 blocker anyway.

Meekstone is kind of interesting, seems decent against both Eva Green and Dreadstill. I'll think about this one, not sure if it's good enough but might be worthy of some testing time.

Still Tinkerer is insane against Dreadstill, it stops the CB/Top lock, Factory, Needle and Dreadnought AND it attacks. REB is pretty good against them as it stops Standstill and sometimes can randomly stop a Dreadnought if they savagely misplay or you have them with their back against the wall anyway.

ScatmanX

06-29-2009, 03:59 PM

King is really not an answer, more like a weapon, but I wouldnt run him either. REB, in the other hand, rocks, once they have to counter it AND your Weirdings. You can save Wasteland to Mishra. Sure they can Stifle but, if they have 2 counters, stifle, and mana to activate factory after they play Dreadnought+Stifle, you´re in bad shape anyways.

Meekstone is also great agains´t Thresh decks, once every creature they have (exept maybe Pridemage and that flying 2/3) will only attack once. Same holds true for Pox (stop Stalker and Nihilith), Coatl Orb and the like, Dragon, Faerie, Demon, Imp and Angel Stompy. The card is better with Mogg Warmarchal and Mad Auntie, since you can block forever (of course they won´t swing just to be blocked, but then you can wait to assemble the alpha strike).
We have discussed this card in the past, and came to the conclusions:
1) not enough board space
2) In Rb, it makes Weirdings bad, once they sac the tapped dude.

true story

06-29-2009, 10:41 PM

Terminate is how you deal with dreadnaught, true story.

Tacosnape

06-30-2009, 01:16 AM

Triple Pyrokinesis also kills a Dreadnought. I actually did this recently. Still lost the game horribly as a result of having no cards left, but it was hilarious.

Warren Weirding isn't all that bad of an answer to Phyrexian Dreadnought. If Dreadstill drops it turn 2, they're tapped out. If they wait until turn three or four, you've started amassing your awesomeness by this point. You also run Wasteland. If you run Chalice, Chalice at 1. If you're me and run Pithing Needle instead, Needle the manland so Weirding kills the Dreadnought. Or Goblin Tinkerer the Dreadnought. Whatever. I've lost to quite a few Dreadnoughts and handled quite a few also. If you're that concerned, there's a million cards you can run to annihilate Dreadnought, including Engineered Explosives, Shattering Spree, or even Terminate. Or Backlash, if you want to be a silly bitch.

Mantis

06-30-2009, 03:48 AM

Meekstone still remains interesting the more I think about it. I will definately test it. Could potentially work against Tempo Thresh, Aggro Loam, Stompy decks and maybe even Eva Green (though they have Hypnotic Specter and Pulse).

I wasn't looking for a list of (terrible) answers to Dreadnought, I simply wanted to point out that it's quite likely we will see more Noughts in the near future again so be prepared. I will most likely pack more Tinkerers in that event and be prepared.

We talked about Terminate, everyone disliked it, no results back up it's inclusion and still you keep spamming it every time you get the chance. If it works for you fine, I don't want to splash a color for a terrible instant sorry.

GreenOne

06-30-2009, 05:34 AM

My monored build includes 2 Stingscourger, 1 Tinkerer maindeck (and still have the space for 2/3 Chieftains) and I never had any kind of problems unless they got the 12/12 down on turn 2. If they do, they still suffer from lackey connecting / vial to drop un uncounterable Scourger.

Otherwise, the probability you can race the Dreadnough or have 1 or more solutions in hand and a good way to make them uncounterable becomes too high to worry about it.

G2 and G3, if there's Pyroclasm involved, then you might have some problem, but G1 is definetly yours.

You probably have some more issues with the trampling dude cause War Marshall and Relic, while proving to be really good in some matchups, are quite suckish against Dreadstill.

ScatmanX

06-30-2009, 08:54 AM

In a build with Chieftain, would Mogg Warmarchal become even better?
Has anyone tested Chieftain in Rb(x) lists? Is it better than Mad Auntie?

The Grim Reaper

06-30-2009, 10:19 AM

Recently, in mono-red goblins, Relic of Progenitus has been run due to that fact that it fits nicely in the curve and there were no other "wow" goblins available. After the printing of Goblin Chieften, I think it is safe to say that Chieften can easily replace them. It may shove the curve a little higher, but curve isn't the only important factor in Goblins. The other is card quality. No one should be running Mogg Fanatics and Skirk Prospectors simply because they are a one drop. They should be run because they are good cards, which they are not at the moment.

Here is my current Mono Red list:

// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
15 [UNH] Mountain
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [M10] Goblin Chieften
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

Curve: 1: 8
2: 10 (effectively)
3: 11
4: 5
5: 3

Possible Variations: -1 Chieften or Siege-gang +1 Goblin Tinkerer

This is the purest form of Mono-Red Goblin Aggro. You will not find a more consistent goblin deck with a faster clock. Go ahead and test it, you will see.

Current Issues:

1. Plague. The worst thing about Mono-red goblins is that it has very poor answers to engineered plague. I propose a sideboarding strategy of 1x Chieften and several additional Goblin Kings in order to combat this. With only Goblin King (and the shitty Goblin General) in the past as an answer to plague, up to 8 possible +1/+1 effects for goblins could pose a strong AND aggressive solution to plague.

2. Combo. Board 8 cards (pillars/chalice) or just accept your loss. You still have a chance with this heavily aggressive version if they are slow at going off.

Happy testing - and enjoy the fact that they finally printed a playable goblin again.

GreenOne

06-30-2009, 11:56 AM

list + considerations
I agree with almost everything you said, but have to say some things.

- you have one more 4cc drop in Pyromancer (5 total).

- I don't believe this deck actually curves that well with such a high cc AND few lands. If you want to run 8 1cc then you need the 24th land. Being it Gemstone Caverns, Mutavault, Mountain, or even Goblin Burrows (a 3/3 goblin can exchange with goyf! :eek: ) is your choice.

- About the curve you're right. This deck doesn't need shitty 1cc drops just because they are 1cc drops. However, it has to make some plays before the third turn to still be aggressive. Gempalm Incinerator is not actually a turn 2 drop, considering it actually acts like removal only when you have a couple of more critters in play, and by turn 2 you have only the 40% of probability of having a creature in play, and the probability of the opponent having a X/1 critter in play in conjunction is really really low.
That said, if there are no 1cc dudes good enough to fit this slot, you should be playing more 2cc drops. We have some good ones (Tinkerer, Stingscourger, War Marshall). Go play them in place of your 3rd SGC and/or Pyromancer.

- Plague is not that great of an issue. Plague is usually played by decks with an already bad goblin mathup (UGb or the like), so game 1 should be our business, and land denial is helping greatly against it G2 and 3. We also have only 8 1/1s in the deck. 4 of them really shine only in the first 3 turns of the game (lackey), 4 of them can tutor off Chieftain or Boartusk as +1/+1 effects. Oh, we also have 2-3 +1/+1 effects maindeck.
Please, don't play King. Ever. It sucks in the mirror, red decks are already running a good number of pyroclasm / bolts, and if you're attacking to use your landwalk ability, a single removal on your king and 1 or 2 blocks you didn't expect are going to ruin your day.
If you're looking into more +1/+1 effects than Boartusk Liege is what you're in search of: it resists Bolt and even double plague or Pyroclasm or darkblast. A 2of in play double pump themselves to 5/6. I don't know if it will still be needed with Chieftain in the deck, but if you need more, just play Boartusk.

The Grim Reaper

06-30-2009, 01:06 PM

I agree with almost everything you said, but have to say some things.

- you have one more 4cc drop in Pyromancer (5 total).

- I don't believe this deck actually curves that well with such a high cc AND few lands. If you want to run 8 1cc then you need the 24th land. Being it Gemstone Caverns, Mutavault, Mountain, or even Goblin Burrows (a 3/3 goblin can exchange with goyf! :eek: ) is your choice.

- About the curve you're right. This deck doesn't need shitty 1cc drops just because they are 1cc drops. However, it has to make some plays before the third turn to still be aggressive. Gempalm Incinerator is not actually a turn 2 drop, considering it actually acts like removal only when you have a couple of more critters in play, and by turn 2 you have only the 40% of probability of having a creature in play, and the probability of the opponent having a X/1 critter in play in conjunction is really really low.
That said, if there are no 1cc dudes good enough to fit this slot, you should be playing more 2cc drops. We have some good ones (Tinkerer, Stingscourger, War Marshall). Go play them in place of your 3rd SGC and/or Pyromancer.

- Plague is not that great of an issue. Plague is usually played by decks with an already bad goblin mathup (UGb or the like), so game 1 should be our business, and land denial is helping greatly against it G2 and 3. We also have only 8 1/1s in the deck. 4 of them really shine only in the first 3 turns of the game (lackey), 4 of them can tutor off Chieftain or Boartusk as +1/+1 effects. Oh, we also have 2-3 +1/+1 effects maindeck.
Please, don't play King. Ever. It sucks in the mirror, red decks are already running a good number of pyroclasm / bolts, and if you're attacking to use your landwalk ability, a single removal on your king and 1 or 2 blocks you didn't expect are going to ruin your day.
If you're looking into more +1/+1 effects than Boartusk Liege is what you're in search of: it resists Bolt and even double plague or Pyroclasm or darkblast. A 2of in play double pump themselves to 5/6. I don't know if it will still be needed with Chieftain in the deck, but if you need more, just play Boartusk.

Thanks for noticing the Pyromancer, completely forgot about it.

Is 24 lands really a good number? In practice I've almost always had enough with 23, especially in mono-red, which has no fetches. I even run 23 lands in 3c goblins with little to no difficulties. I was considering trying the gemstone caverns, has that been good to anyone in testing?

I might try Boartusk in the sideboard, but it may be better to focus on more difficult matchups, as you said.

My current sideboard looks something like:

4x Pyrokenesis
4x Chalice
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Relic of Progenitus (May be Tinkerer/Sharpshooter/(chieften or boartusk) combo

I might try out Goblin War Marshals, since that seems like the hip thing to do these days, but they seem a bit boring compared to the alternatives available.

true story

06-30-2009, 01:59 PM

We talked about Terminate, everyone disliked it, no results back up it's inclusion and still you keep spamming it every time you get the chance. If it works for you fine, I don't want to splash a color for a terrible instant sorry.

I wouldn't suggest splashing a color just for 1 card, but if you're already in black you should TRY it. I run 3 Terminate 3 Weirding, I can't give you match by match results. I just know it's awesome and the couple of people I let borrow the deck were amazed at how good Terminate was. I know it's not a Goblin, who cares? Vial isn't a Goblin it's still awesome. True story.

The Grim Reaper

06-30-2009, 02:06 PM

I wouldn't suggest splashing a color just for 1 card, but if you're already in black you should TRY it. I run 3 Terminate 3 Weirding, I can't give you match by match results. I just know it's awesome and the couple of people I let borrow the deck were amazed at how good Terminate was. I know it's not a Goblin, who cares? Vial isn't a Goblin it's still awesome. True story.

I've tried running Terminates and found that in the long run its just better to run Incinerator and Weirding. The fact that they are goblins is quite important due to Matron/Ringleader. Also they don't beat down like incinerator when you are desperate to do so.

Also, do you actually say "True Story" a lot in real life? Because if you do, I can't imagine how the people around you restrain themselves from beating your face in with a tire iron. Am I the only person who finds this extremely grating? I don't normally insult people, but reading "true story" at the end of every one of your posts is extremely annoying. Could you please stop doing it? Thank you.

FoulQ

06-30-2009, 03:15 PM

Most of us have tried terminate. Most of us have come to the same results, except for you. I'm not saying you are wrong, because obviously terminate is great in your metagame. The better way to say it is that you are not right.

If people are honestly upping their curve by removing fanatics for chieftans / warmarshals / etc. then I might consider ancient tomb. I'm going to test it I think under M10 rules and was wondering if anybody has any opinions on it or testing results or anything. Yes I realize that it has been discussed before but dropping fanatics and playing a singleton tomb I haven't really seen here.

It makes me sad, because I was enjoying a slightly low land count maxing out on tempo cards, 4 sting and 4 fanatic.

Also, is frogtosser still hot stuff? People were loving him for a while. I'm thinking of either going Rb frogtosser route or MonoRed warmarshal / chieftan / sgc route.

Tacosnape

06-30-2009, 03:52 PM

Frogtosser's still hot. I'm varying between 2 and 4.

Haven't got around to extensive Chieftain testing yet. Too caught up in other decks at the moment.

Stingscourger's worth further consideration in RB if you're expecting a lot of Dreadnought.

It's worth noting, however, that most Dreadstill decks pack Spell Snare, and every answer to Dreadnought listed (Weirding, Terminate, Tinkerer, Stingscourger, Tin-Street) gets offed by Spell Snare. I think if Dreadnought's a huge problem that Shattering Spree might get a look, due to it being nearly impossible to counter.

Eldariel

06-30-2009, 04:09 PM

It's worth noting, however, that most Dreadstill decks pack Spell Snare, and every answer to Dreadnought listed (Weirding, Terminate, Tinkerer, Stingscourger, Tin-Street) gets offed by Spell Snare. I think if Dreadnought's a huge problem that Shattering Spree might get a look, due to it being nearly impossible to counter.

Vs. Dreadstill though, you can generally sneak Vial or Lackey through enabling an easy-to-drop Sting. That's how I usually win the MU when they get a quick Dreadnought with counter backup.

dr4g0n

06-30-2009, 06:42 PM

Vs. Dreadstill though, you can generally sneak Vial or Lackey through enabling an easy-to-drop Sting. That's how I usually win the MU when they get a quick Dreadnought with counter backup.

Agreed. I can back this up since this is how i turned a decent rank in a recent local tourney. Personally, I think Sting is the best way to get rid of Dreadnought, and this is actually backed up by pretty extensive testing.

true story

06-30-2009, 10:52 PM

I've tried running Terminates and found that in the long run its just better to run Incinerator and Weirding. The fact that they are goblins is quite important due to Matron/Ringleader. Also they don't beat down like incinerator when you are desperate to do so.

Also, do you actually say "True Story" a lot in real life? Because if you do, I can't imagine how the people around you restrain themselves from beating your face in with a tire iron. Am I the only person who finds this extremely grating? I don't normally insult people, but reading "true story" at the end of every one of your posts is extremely annoying. Could you please stop doing it? Thank you.

At least you tried running Terminate, alot of people just say fuck it. To be honest when I put them in the deck I was playing against Tombstone alot and Gempalm rarely killed Goyf or Tombstalker, I switched to Terminate and they have yet to suck, even on the rare occasion I flip 1 with Ringleader.

As for saying true story... Where the fuck do you think I got my name from. I would absolutely love it if somebody tried to beat my face in with a tire iron. True story.

GreenOne

07-01-2009, 04:49 AM

If people are honestly upping their curve by removing fanatics for chieftans / warmarshals / etc. then I might consider ancient tomb.
I tested ancient tomb more than a few times. It sucks if you're not going for a combo version:
- it has a bad synergy with 1RR spells (that are now upped to 7 in the maindeck) and other cards added with fanatic removal (War Marshals, Tinkerer..)
- It has a bad, bad synergy with Warchief. After a warchief you got actually to cast only SGC and Ringleader effectively out of this land.
- Oh, it gives you pain. This actually matters in every aggro/burn matchup.

Is 24 lands really a good number? In practice I've almost always had enough with 23, especially in mono-red, which has no fetches. I even run 23 lands in 3c goblins with little to no difficulties. I was considering trying the gemstone caverns, has that been good to anyone in testing?
The more lands it has, the more goblin enjoys. You almost always want to make your first 4-5 land drops, to be able to use Wastelands and Ports effectively and to drop your more costy dudes when vial/lackey got answered. The opponent might play mana denial effects too. 24 Lands reduces the number of mulligans for hands with little lands too. You can actually be a little more comfortable keeping a 1 lander with a lackey/vial, if you got a good number of 2cc drops. The only annoying thing of 24 lands is that your ringleaders got a little bit weaker, but at a negligible measure.

23 lands was a good number when fanatics were lowering the curve and allowing for tempo boosts. The deck now relies more on 2-3 cc to gain tempo, and thus gotta have a little more lands.

Caverns is a strange card, that must be tested carefully.
Sometimes is suckish when you just draw it and you needed a red source.
Sometimes you don't want to feel the pain of pitching something and it's just a grey land.
Sometimes it allows your 1cc drops to be protected by daze.
Sometimes it allows to curve a lot better, and do something like turn1 piledriver, turn 2 Warchief, turn 3 matron-> piledriver and win. Even turn 1 Vial + Wasteland is huge.

And.. sometimes it's like playing with 1 wasteland more against Hypergenesis! :cool:

Remember 2 things when testing it:
- You can pitch lands to it!
- Obviously side it out when you're on the play (unless you're playing against mana denial decks).

scrumdogg

07-01-2009, 11:46 AM

GreenOne

07-01-2009, 12:15 PM

I have an oddball question. Would you run an extra set of Matrons (8 total) if you could? Would increasing the consistency of what you draw be worth the decreased raw power? Would the ability to access silver bullet goblins be worth it? Would the fact that these extra (4) Matrons aren't Goblins be deal-breaking? I will be tinkering with a list & try to post evolutions, but I was interested in the thinking of the community (not that you people determine what I do or believe, but the competent & thoughtful ones among you do give valuable perspective...amidst the white noise...).
No, imperial recruiter does not belong the deck.

EDIT: this is because it's a lot inferior to matron due to not being cheatable with lackey, reduced in cost with warchief, doesn't pump piledriver, doesn't have +1/+1 from chieftain, haste, it's not ringleaderable, etc etc. Every non-goblin card in the deck must be really huge, not just an inferior version of what the deck already runs. And, if I was allowed to play with 8 matrons, that deck would actually be a combo one. I'd suggest you to post it in the foode chain gobbos thread. Don't know if it's worth it even there though.

Shimster

07-02-2009, 07:17 AM

This is the list I'm going to play post M10. It's more focussed on power than on elegance.

2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Relic of Progenitus

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Weirding
2 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief

1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader

3 Siege-Gang Commander

Without the Fanatic, Earwig Squad lacks a lot of its earlygame power (sad but true, I was a longtime advisor), thus I cut them in favour of more raw meat.

Relic and Weirdings are really good in my meta (Dreadstill, Loam), while the basic swamp is a real beating against wastelock.

Funky-kun

07-03-2009, 10:51 AM

Has anyone considered Moggcatcher in the deck as a one-of? I have a free slot and noticed this card as a possible addition. What do you think?

Also, isn't Thorn of Amethyst better than Chalice in the combo matchup combined with the mana denial? (that is, if we live long enough to play it)

Eldariel

07-03-2009, 12:40 PM

Has anyone considered Moggcatcher in the deck as a one-of? I have a free slot and noticed this card as a possible addition. What do you think?

Generally, you need a very good reason to include a non-Goblin here. I don't see one with Moggcatcher.

Also, isn't Thorn of Amethyst better than Chalice in the combo matchup combined with the mana denial? (that is, if we live long enough to play it)

Chalice isn't played only because of its impact in the combo MU; you also play Chalice against Burn, Elves, Zoo-variants and so on. It's a versatile card and hence worthwhile. Thorn is pretty damn narrow, and slow where it counts; against combo, you want your disruption down turn 1 (so you can spend your lands on mana denial and on playing guys to actually them), and you don't want to be spending mana on it. That's why Chalice is the only card that passes the test for me.

Mantis

07-04-2009, 07:06 AM

I have finalized my boarding plans for my current list:

15 Mountain, 4 Waste, 4 Port, 4 Vial
3 Relic

4 Lackey/Incinerator/Piledriver/Chief/Ringleader/Matron
2 Siege Gang
4 Mogg War Marshal

SB:
4 Chalice
3 REB
3 Boartusk Liege
2 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Anarchy
1 Relic of Progenitus

Tempo Thresh:
+3 Boartusk Liege, +1 Relic
-1 Siege Gang, -3 Gempalm

Dreadstill no Goyf:
+2 Tinkerer, +3 REB, +3 Liege
-3 Relic, -4 Incinerator, -1 War Marshall

w/ Goyf:
+2 Tinkerer, +2 REB, +2 Boartusk Liege
-3 Incinerator, -1 War Marshall, -1 SGC, -1 Ringleader

Landstill:
2 Anarchy, 1 REB
-3 Relic

/w Plague (black in general)
+1 Anarchy, +3 Liege
-3 Relic, 1 Gempalm

Eva Green
+1 Relic, +3 Liege
-1 Siege Gang, -1 War Marshall, -2 Piledriver

Zoo:
-1 Relic
+1 Boartusk

Merfolk:
+2 Tinkerer, +3 REB
-3 Relic, -2 War Marshal

Aggro Loam:
+1 Relic
-1 Siege Gang

CounterTop:
+1 Boartusk (Plagues, more)
-1 War Marshal

My boarding plans heavily anticipate on opposing Clasm/Firespout/Plagues to help you understand my choice of Lieges.
Feedback would be appreciated, would you do anything differently?

ScatmanX

07-04-2009, 07:50 PM

I guess that in the mirror, -3 Relic, +3 Liege.
And what about Combo? You just die right?
Jus think that 3 REB's, and I'm talking after running 3 for a while, should be 3 Pyroknesis, that helps Merfolk (as REB), and mirror, elves, Survival, Soo, and others. A smart Dreadstill player play around REB (that split second stifle), and against Landstill you still have the edge so...

Question: After M10 will your list remain the same? I hear the new goblin is really good with your 4 Mogg Warmarshall.

GreenOne

07-05-2009, 12:00 AM

Dreadstill no Goyf:
+2 Tinkerer, +3 REB, +3 Liege
-3 Relic, -4 Incinerator, -1 War Marshall
You sometimes want a removal for those Factories (when you don't have Waste/Port, Waste got stifled, etc.) and your war marshall isn't really chumping Dreadnough. So I'd go with +1 Incinerator -1 War Marshall.

w/ Goyf:
+2 Tinkerer, +2 REB, +2 Boartusk Liege
-3 Incinerator, -1 War Marshall, -1 SGC, -1 Ringleader
Ringleader is too important in the matchup to side out (your goblin count decrease by just 2 post SB), so I'd go with -2 War Marshall or just board a less REB.

Landstill /w Plague (black in general)
+1 Anarchy, +3 Liege
-3 Relic, 1 Gempalm
If it's still running Moat/Humility/Elspeth, etc you need all the Anarchies you got. +1 Anarchy -1 Gempalm/War Marshal

Eva Green
+1 Relic, +3 Liege
-1 Siege Gang, -1 War Marshall, -2 Piledriver
Piledriver is a threat even with a plague out and without Liege, where War Marshall is not. -2/3 War marshall, -0/1 Piledriver

Zoo:
-1 Relic
+1 Boartusk
If they're running lavamancer then it might be a good idea. If they're not you're keeping 2 Relics just for their Goyfs, so I'd go with +3 Liege -3 Relic. Boartusk is actually a body that survives bolt, makes it easier against Pyroclasm, and blocks Nacatl, Pridemage, Watchwolf like a champ.

Are you going to play some Chieftains MD/SB after M10? I played a bit with them and they're good. Damn they really are.

About Kinesis: it's really a card you wanna see against tribal decks (there are soo many), survival, the rock, etc. Why did you decide not to play it? Are those Chalices + Pyroblasts going to win the combo matchup? Hope they put you in a very favourable G2 and G3, since you're going to always lose G1. If it's not you can just cut the chalices for Kinesis, since you're not siding chalices in any other matchup (even threshold/dreadstill)

Mantis

07-05-2009, 05:01 AM

Okay some solid advice, I typed up the plans rather quickly so you pointed out some obvious flaws. Agreed on pretty much all acounts but I think I am boarding correctly against UR Dreadstill, Gempalm is not needed with 4 Wastes, 4 Ports and 2 Tinkerer. Keeping in one Gempalm isn't going to help all that much as Tinkerer seems better against them in pretty much every situation.

I still have a tournament before the release of M10 so that's why I don't have Chieftains in my list yet. I haven't tested the Chieftains yet, but I'm not sure what to take out of the list, I'm pretty sure some War Marshals can go, as they are solid but are lacking in some matchups.

Pyrokinesis is a decent card, but one that I don't think I really need. There are not a whole lot of matchups where I need them right now, Goblins is hardly being played and I am going to be so bold and claim I can handle pretty much everyone in a Goblins mirror. We don't need it against Merfolk and Elves is pretty much non existant over here. I guess they could be good against Zoo, but I don't think they tip the scales in your favor all that much, we are talking about a few precent maybe.
On the other hand Chalice, REB and Boartusk Liege do great things against hard matchups, turning unfavorable ones to favor you. Chalice gets sided in against Burn, combo and Elves.
Anarchy is a special case as it grants inevetiability against Enchantress and White Stax.

Reading that you can probably tell what I am trying to achieve with my sideboard. I believe if I play well I should be able to beat decks where I need Kinesis, but no playskill in the world could save you from the claws of Enchantress or Combo, you need help there. Also, maybe I expect too much of pitching 2 cards, but I've been very underwhelmed with Pyrokinesis against something with fatties such as Zoo. It may be a great tempo card, but giving up 2 buisiness spells can set you back a lot as well. Perhaps I'm wrong but I just never liked the card, if it traded 2 for 2 guaranteed I'd love it but most of the time it one for twos you.

To answer your question about my Combo matchup, yes I am up 4-0 in matches against combo (I honestly don't know why I keep winning, I guess the players on MWS suck with combo, but I beat one IRL too).

EDIT: One more thing, I think having 4 War Marshals may be the wrong choice. 3 is a better number I think so I might cut one for a Stingscourger or a Tinkerer.

GreenOne

07-05-2009, 08:20 AM

To answer your question about my Combo matchup, yes I am up 4-0 in matches against combo (I honestly don't know why I keep winning, I guess the players on MWS suck with combo, but I beat one IRL too).
If you need a testing partner for combo you can contact me. I'd love to see a plan like this turning the matchup against combo, cause you're using cards that can be sided against some other matchup, unlike bricks like Chant.

Mantis

07-08-2009, 07:01 AM

Split for first yesterday in a 12 man tourney, back to back 'wins' is awesome, especially with a deck deemed dead by many. I ran the Relic/War Marshal list again and the War Marshals were relevant but the Relics werent all that awesome. Still, they never hindered me as I boarded them out G2 a lot.
I went 2-1-1 in the swiss (took a risky ID in round 4 which I likely should have just played out). Cut was to Top 4. R1: Merfolk 2-0, R2: Combo 2-1 (should have mulled into aggressive hands more, this is key to beating combo, still it was close as he was on 2 when he still flipped with Ad Naus), R3: 4C CB/Top piloted by my buddy Rick 2-0, very exciting g1 in which Rick definately pulled some very nice plays but we both made a few mistakes his being more costly than mine in the end, G2 was a lot more easy. R4: ID. 2 players on 9 points, they drew in. 3 players with 6 points, me and my opponent and a Loam player. The reason we IDed was that he was paired against combo and we saw them shuffling up for game 2 before we were even seated. Loam lost 2-1 eventually and in the fun games we played I smashed him 2-0 (both preboard with him on the play) because he made a slight misplay game 2 which I punished HARD with a maindecked Boartusk Liege finishing him off.

Top 4:
Semis: the ANT player again, this time I mulled VERY aggressively and that paid off as I killed him on turn 4 with multiple Pileys + Lackey and a Wasteland in the mix. G2: He Duressed my Chalice, leaving me with a pretty bad hand, I played Vial and another one the following turn. He kept drawing blanks and on my turn 3 I played Matron searched for Piley and put it into play through Vial. Next turn I played Ringleader to put him on low life, I found a War Marshal and a Warchief which I both gladly put into play. He was at one and played Ad Naus next turn and died to a flipped Ill Gotten Gains.

Finals: I had some stuff to do so I asked him if he wanted to split, he was Landstill. My SB wasnt finished and I lacked 2 Boartusk Lieges and 2 Anarchies so I wasnt too unhappy to split even though I think if I had all the cards I would have a much better matchup.

So we split, I got a Badlands and a Taiga + 5 Reborn packs and he got a Goyf + 5 Reborn packs + 2 Deeds I threw in (not sure if this was a good trade but who cares).

Once again Goblins is proving to be a top contender, the manadisruption was invaluable and I seriously cant understand why you would want to cut Port. Aggressive mulliganning against combo in combination with 4 Chalice and 4 REBs makes the matchup very winnable, Port and especially Waste help too (keep hands with Wasteland against combo!). This tournament I am 3-2 against combo and while my opponent complained about bad draws I think the matchup is very even with my sideboard.

Ectoplasm

07-08-2009, 07:20 AM

Nice job Mantis, keep the goblin flag up! :D

Funky-kun

07-09-2009, 11:56 AM

Justin

07-09-2009, 01:37 PM

I just searched this thread and was surprised to see Mogg Flunkies mentioned only two times with no real discussion about them. As of lately I've been thinking what monored could use to stop Tarmogoyf and the logical answer was Relic, but I disliked it because it was dead in half of the matchups. However, I really like Mogg Flunkies. With a build with Vial as the only noncreature card, the Flunkies are rarely left alone. When the only 1/1s in the deck are Matron and Lackey, there is a really high percentage of having a 2/2 alongside him to block and kill Goyf. Plus he survives Clasm and excels with a Plagues on the table. My testing has shown that he really gives the upper hand in the Tempo Thresh match. Also fits the curve nicely. Hasn't anyone really tried him? Or am I missing something?

The Goblin deck usually isn't too concerned about blocking Goyf. It wants to attack through him. A 3/3 for two that can only sometimes attack or block is pretty underwhelming. If you want to run a bigger goblin, I recommend Earwig Squad, which costs only one mana more than Flunkies (with the prowl cost), is +2 on the power and comes with a useful ability.

Elfrago

07-09-2009, 01:54 PM

I usually don't play goblin but while we are at it, what do you guys think of ye olde Goblin Goon. I saw someone playing it and I was pretty impressed.

ScatmanX

07-09-2009, 02:17 PM

Goblin Goon is a nice SB (maybe even MB if you find space) awnser against plague, but in that slot, nowadays, people are running Boartusk Liege instead in monored, since he is better in many situations.

Eldariel

07-09-2009, 02:18 PM

I usually don't play goblin but while we are at it, what do you guys think of ye olde Goblin Goon. I saw someone playing it and I was pretty impressed.

I had great experiences with it in a "Big Goblins"-list (that also ran Mogg Fanatic) with Chrome Moxes and Tombs. It truly shoves it to Pyroclasms, 'Goyf, Tombstalker and company. Hell, two trade with PhyrDread. By the way, I hated Flunkies in the deck; I often want to hit with just one guy and often can only resolve few guys through counterwalls, meaning I want everyone do shit alone. Goon was fine as when I'm low on critters, opp is too, but Flunks didn't work out. Having to throw another guy away to block is annoying too.

That said, standard list cannot really play Goon to great effect due to manacurve considerations. The slots are just a bit too filled. Flunkies I wouldn't play outside much lower-curve version at all, and even then I don't think they cut it for Legacy anymore. But Goon is good, just a bit high in the curve.

MTG-Fan

07-09-2009, 02:33 PM

I'm just curious... has anyone considered Sensation Gorger in Goblins yet?

Seems like a good way to refuel your hand in this kind of deck.

ScatmanX

07-09-2009, 02:59 PM

I guess that, to refuel your hand in this tipe of deck, you can use Matron and Ringleader, but no, I have never tested it.

bloodted

07-09-2009, 03:12 PM

ringleader and matron are just better then Sensation Gorger. The problem with Gorger is that it is a little to mana intensive, it has to stick around and it dose not promise you the draw. ringleader will get you what you need or get the 4 lands off the top of your deck. I do like Gorger for the fact that if it dose hit and goes off you can make that seven card hand your opponent has go down to 4. but I think ringleader is just better. :smile:

Funky-kun

07-09-2009, 05:28 PM

FoulQ

07-09-2009, 05:43 PM

In my book Flunkies is times better than War Marshal. I just won a game with 3 of them through an Engineered Plague and an active Jitte.

Another thought - maindeck single Sharpshooter or Tinkerer? They tend to solve different problems. Tinkerer deals with one of the worst problems - the aforementioned Jitte, while also killing other nasty stuff (not seen in my meta though). Shooter shines agains other tribal, but other than that he doesn't have many uses. Anyone got out of ETW with him?

I also run a single Goon as an additional out to Goyf and I have been really happy with him too.
The synergy between War Marshal and Chieftain or War Marshal and Piledriver is much more impressive than Flunkie's 3/3 body. The difference between a 2/2 and a 3/3 in legacy is honestly not very much. Plus by himself he is terrible which already happens to me enough with my piledrivers.

Goon has been discussed, talked about, dissected, etc. about a hundred times. Yes, he is alright. No, he is not that great. From my personal experience, when I play him he is either ridiculous or horrible.

A singleton tinkerer is not good to me. He cannot serve as a reactive solution to Jitte so he does nothing to solve the problem like Tin Street does. Running him as a 3of though does attract me somewhat sometimes, depending. And with sharpshooter I would say that is meta dependent. I dropped him, I find him to be subpar without fanatic anymore.

Unknown2

07-10-2009, 01:01 AM

post m10, I am removing fanatics and sharpshooters (maybe keep 1 sharp in sb for matron).

Is there any suitable 1/2 drop to replace fanatic?

Tacosnape

07-10-2009, 01:13 AM

post m10, I am removing fanatics and sharpshooters (maybe keep 1 sharp in sb for matron).

Is there any suitable 1/2 drop to replace fanatic?

No. This discussion went on for pages. There are no cards with the Goblin type that don't suck in this slot. Possible 1-drops include Thoughtseize or Therapy in black splashes, Swords to Plowshares in White, and Relic of Progenitus.

To make up for the curve getting much heavier at 2, I and some other people have started running 1-2 Gemstone Caverns as a supplement on the draw.

Unknown2

07-10-2009, 01:15 AM

I think i'd just replace them with thoughtseizes then and run the whole 4 badlands instead of the 3....

yeah, that's what I will do

GreenOne

07-10-2009, 03:44 AM

post m10, I am removing fanatics and sharpshooters (maybe keep 1 sharp in sb for matron).

Is there any suitable 1/2 drop to replace fanatic?
As 2 drops there are quite good interesting options, like:
- Stingscourger = quite a good replacement for fanatic removal and indeed good against Tombstalkers, Goyf, and the like. It becomes really good with Warchief or Chieftain. Like Fanatic, it's a tempo tool.
- Gempalm Incinerator = you can maximize the number of those, if you already aren't. Can be cycled in a pinch if the opponent is low on creatures. It loses part of its goodness with the loss of fanatics, though.
- Goblin Tinkerer = survives plague, destroys Jittes, Vials, Dreadnoughts, EEs, Moxes and the like.

I don't believe the deck needs non-goblin creature removal. Maybe SB perish or the like, but I would not dilute the deck with MD Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Swords or the like. Relic might be good in some metas, but the other choices don't fit for me.

I'm playing monored with 3 Chieftains MD. They're a godsend. It's like the deck is playing with 2 different speeds. One include the Lackey / Vial (and maybe caverns) openings, that bust your speed a lot.
But if Lackey can't connect or vial gets removed, the deck still wants to put some pressure, and go turn 2 drop, turn 3 drop with haste. Chieftain adds consistency in doing this, allowing the deck to have some good pressure by turn 3 even if there's no vial and lackey brokenness going on.

Those starts are acceptable to me:
Tinkerer, Chieftain = 4 dmg on turn 3
Piledriver, Warchief = 5 dmg on turn 3
Piledriver, Chieftain = 6 dmg on turn 3

Unknown2

07-10-2009, 07:27 AM

I suppose you have a point concerning Thoughtseize. I've always been a fan of stingscourger, so I might add those, and I'm content with my 2 incinerators.

I'm playing 3 perish in the side (I'm running 3c), so that's usually plenty of removal against most decks.

I love chieftan, but I can only find room for 1 or possibly 2 in the 3c deck (taking out the 1 wort and 1 sharpshooter). But 4 warchief+2 chieftan is plenty for me.

edit: what do you think of Mogg War Marshal

ScatmanX

07-10-2009, 09:19 AM

Mogg War Marchall is great. It blocks Goyf 3 turns, it pumps gempalm and Piledriver like a champ, and with the inclusion of M10, he's gold. I'm currently with 3 in Rb.

true story

07-10-2009, 02:13 PM

I know somebody on here was running Anarchy in the board. How is that going? Is it worth it? I'm thinking of running it because Landstill gives me some problems and it would kill Humility, Elspeth(the whore),Moat, soldier tokens...

ScatmanX

07-10-2009, 03:48 PM

Depending on your meta, it can be good. I used to play 2 SB, but never got a chance to side them in.
It is good agains't UWx Landstill and Enchantress only. But is very nice to have agains't not comonly played decks, like AngelStompy, WhiteStax, Soldiers, some Homebrew decks, Quinn and Death and Taxes.
If you have problems with these decks, I sugest it, but 2-3. Think that 4 is too much.

Tacosnape

07-10-2009, 04:31 PM

The problem with Anarchy is that it only helps against one or two decks and even then isn't guaranteed to do much, as Enchantress can Replenish out of it and Landstill can just counter it.

Mogg War Marshal is growing on me in RB. I've got two fit in at the moment and am attempting to get a third and possibly even a fourth.

ScatmanX

07-10-2009, 04:54 PM

Ok, so I´m going to post my list, for a champ in 2 days.
the manabase is weird, because I don't have all the fetchs.

// Lands
6 [ALA] Mountain
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns
4 [A] Badlands
2 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar

4 Weirdings+3 Incinerators are awesome.
I removed Frogtosser, because they were disapointing me lately.
The SB is open for discussion. I just don't want to lose to TES/ANT again. The big problem is: No grave hate anyhere. I'm just hoping to get lucky and don't face Ichorid/Agroo Loam.

BKclassic

07-10-2009, 08:51 PM

Is there some reason why we are running Gemstone Caverns over Chrome Mox?

GreenOne

07-10-2009, 11:10 PM

Is there some reason why we are running Gemstone Caverns over Chrome Mox?
Caverns is just a grey land as a topdeck, you can "imprint" lands in it, gives mana of every color (for 3c lists), and actually trades CA for speed when you need it the most, when you're on the draw. Being a grey land half the time, and being legendary, means you can't afford to run more than 2 copies ever.

Mogg War Marshal is growing on me in RB. I've got two fit in at the moment and am attempting to get a third and possibly even a fourth. Is it for the synergy with Chieftain?
I might retest it in place of Stingscourger (!!!) going to only 1 scourger / 0 Tinkerers MD and 2 War Marshals. But I doubt that even with the pump effect, those are going to be better than the unsummon/shatter effects.

Tacosnape

07-11-2009, 12:50 PM

Is it for the synergy with Chieftain?
I might retest it in place of Stingscourger (!!!) going to only 1 scourger / 0 Tinkerers MD and 2 War Marshals. But I doubt that even with the pump effect, those are going to be better than the unsummon/shatter effects.

Actually, I'm struggling to make room for Chieftain maindeck. I find myself struggling to give him slots over Frogtosser, Gempalm, Siege-Gang, or War Marshal at the moment.

The longer I play with War Marshal, the longer I love him for the Piledriver/Gempalm synergy, and the more games he wins for me by being a pain in the ass for control to remove and by flooding the board with so many 1/1's that I have the chance to catch up with aggro decks' tempo boosts.

EDIT: God, I can't believe I just advocated chump blocking as a strategy, but it strangely works with War Marshal.

Nessaja

07-11-2009, 01:47 PM

I've stopped with Goblins for a while but I can attest that Mogg War Marshall is indeed awesome, with or without the new Chieftain. He helps throwing goblins on the table and functions like a mini SGC, I realize, no blowing up, but still he gives such a tempo swing.

Taco, here's what I try now very heavy aggro list

15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg War Marshall
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger

If all else fails.. it's atleast a lot of fun to play :)

beastman

07-13-2009, 08:52 PM

With war-marshall, I think goblins is better off going the super swarm route. Goblin king might even be played now. Deftinetely the new lord.

Shriekmaw

07-14-2009, 10:32 AM

I know there is a lot of talk on this form about the red/black version of goblins, but I'm staying with the red/green version for access to tin street main and krosan grip in the board.

I have replaced the mogg fanatics slot in the deck with 3 mogg flunkies and 2 goblin chieftain for 4 mogg fanatics and 1 sharpshooter (moved to board). I rather have an 2 mana 3/3 creature than the war marshal which produces 2 1/1 tokens (1 after death).

I can see you go either way though with the flunkies vs war marshals though. It seems like you should be playing at least 2 goblin king/goblin chieftain in the deck. I think the chieftain is better since it does gives haste to itself as well as your other goblins.

GreenOne

07-14-2009, 10:59 AM

Shriekmaw

07-14-2009, 02:37 PM

Ok, War Marshal doesn't satisfy you. But why run Flunkies when you can just up the count of Chieftains, Tin Streets or Stingscourgers?

I'm already running 2 Chieftains which is more than enough, especially with the mana cost being at 3. I wanted another 2 drop in the deck so it curves out a lot better so that means either adding more stingcourgers, hooligans, or flunkies.

I am satisfied with 2 stingcourgers and 1 hooligan for removal. I wanted another beater in the deck and tested out the flunkies which performed the best.

GreenOne

07-14-2009, 06:15 PM

I'm already running 2 Chieftains which is more than enough, especially with the mana cost being at 3. I wanted another 2 drop in the deck so it curves out a lot better so that means either adding more stingcourgers, hooligans, or flunkies.

I am satisfied with 2 stingcourgers and 1 hooligan for removal. I wanted another beater in the deck and tested out the flunkies which performed the best.
Where are you finding all those slots?
with 23 lands, 4 Matrons, Ringleader, Warchief, Lackey, Vial, Piledriver, Incinerator.
+ 2 SGC, 2 Chieftains, 3 Flunkies, 2 Stingscourger, 1 Hooligan.
It's 61.
Is it 3 incinerators?

Shriekmaw

07-15-2009, 11:10 AM

Where are you finding all those slots?
with 23 lands, 4 Matrons, Ringleader, Warchief, Lackey, Vial, Piledriver, Incinerator.
+ 2 SGC, 2 Chieftains, 3 Flunkies, 2 Stingscourger, 1 Hooligan.
It's 61.
Is it 3 incinerators?

It's 60 cards, I only run 3 piledrivers which is way the list was for a long time. I don't miss having the 4th one.

I like the configuration I have now, but the flunkies/chieftains slots can be any creature previously discussed depending on your preferences/metagame.

Tacosnape

07-15-2009, 04:18 PM

It's 60 cards, I only run 3 piledrivers which is way the list was for a long time. I don't miss having the 4th one.

I like the configuration I have now, but the flunkies/chieftains slots can be any creature previously discussed depending on your preferences/metagame.

You're cutting Piledriver. For Mogg Flunkies. Despite that there can't possibly be a good explanation for this, please explain yourself.

snackfu

07-15-2009, 07:46 PM

I have never, ever, bought into the idea of lowering the Piledriver count.

Except for game 2 of a mirror match.

FoulQ

07-15-2009, 09:01 PM

If you read back in the thread nick explains rather thoroughly why he is only running 3. It can work just fine pre-m10 but with no more fanatics there is some more room and running piledriver as a 4of is again probably mandatory.

23 lands, 4 Matron/Ringleader/Warchief/Lackey/Vial/Piledriver/Incinerator
3 Sting, 2 SGC, 2 Chieftan, 2 Relic

is what I'm currently running for monored. Stings for Weirdings in Rb, 2 TSH over Relic in rg, and both changes in Rbg. Not a fan of the 8 1cc cards in Rg currently though

I board out piledriver against some decks. Specifically burn-based aggro like goyf sligh because they can often isolate piledriver. Don't know if this is the right decision or not but it has worked for me sometimes in the past, depending on what I board in.

true story

07-15-2009, 10:58 PM

I agreed with Nick running 3 Piledrivers before m10, but there is no fucking way I'd run flunkies over Piledriver. Why not the 4th driver and Chieftain number 3. I've run 3 Goblin Kings for years, the extra +1/1 is good for beating face and helps against Plague. I just replaced them with Chieftain, and playtested a lil, he's fucking nuts, if I could find room for 4 I might.

Tacosnape

07-15-2009, 11:28 PM

I don't think running 4 Goblin Piledrivers is automatically mandatory (Though I run 4), but if you aren't going to run 4, you have to have a better reason than Mogg Flunkies. Seriously.

GreenOne

07-16-2009, 04:48 AM

I don't think running 4 Goblin Piledrivers is automatically mandatory (Though I run 4), but if you aren't going to run 4, you have to have a better reason than Mogg Flunkies. Seriously.
QFT.
If it was for Tin Street in an artifact infested meta, or Scourger in a Tombstalker infested one would be ok.

Still flunkies aren't convincing me. Especially when you have plenty of options. Chieftain, Scourger, Tin Street and even Tinkerer seems better.

DragoFireheart

07-16-2009, 12:02 PM

It's 60 cards, I only run 3 piledrivers which is way the list was for a long time. I don't miss having the 4th one.

I like the configuration I have now, but the flunkies/chieftains slots can be any creature previously discussed depending on your preferences/metagame.

Wait, you're running 3 piledrivers and 4 flunkies?

Dude, share some weed!

ReAnimated

07-18-2009, 10:27 PM

Hey guys, ive been thinking of getting back into Goblins and with the new nerf decided Mogg Fanatic should go too, I was thinking about replacing him with Skirk Prospector, he seems to work okay, and you wouldnt even need to run 4. Also I think I will stick with R/b/g to have access to Tin-Street, Krosan Grip, Warren Weirding, and maybe Wort. Currently my list is:

23 land, 4 lackey/vial/piledriver/warchief/matron/ringleader, 3 Warren Weirding, 2 Gempalm, 2 Siege-Gang, for sure, which comes to 54 cards which im pretty certain of.

For the other 6, I am thinking 1 Tin-Street, 1 Wort, 1 Sharpshooter, and 3 Skirk Prospector. For other options, Im thinking possibly another Gempalm (or 2), Prospector, or a single Goblin King and/or Chieftain, those both seem good and have their uses so 1-of to tutor for might be nice.

I also do not see the point of Mogg Flunkies, it doesnt seem better than well any other option, and Stingscourger just seems underwhelming, Id rather tutor up Weirding/Gempalm/Sharpshooter and try to kill the problem creature.

Any ideas/opinions?

TOGITwill

07-19-2009, 01:07 AM

All I know is that Kaleb King top 2'd with a full compliment of Mogg Flunkies. It must be a sign!

Tacosnape

07-19-2009, 02:22 AM

Hey guys, ive been thinking of getting back into Goblins and with the new nerf decided Mogg Fanatic should go too, I was thinking about replacing him with Skirk Prospector, he seems to work okay, and you wouldnt even need to run 4. Also I think I will stick with R/b/g to have access to Tin-Street, Krosan Grip, Warren Weirding, and maybe Wort. Currently my list is:

23 land, 4 lackey/vial/piledriver/warchief/matron/ringleader, 3 Warren Weirding, 2 Gempalm, 2 Siege-Gang, for sure, which comes to 54 cards which im pretty certain of.

For the other 6, I am thinking 1 Tin-Street, 1 Wort, 1 Sharpshooter, and 3 Skirk Prospector. For other options, Im thinking possibly another Gempalm (or 2), Prospector, or a single Goblin King and/or Chieftain, those both seem good and have their uses so 1-of to tutor for might be nice.

My other 7 (22 land) are the 4th Weirding, 2 Frogtosser, 3rd Siege-Gang, and 3 Mogg War Marshal.

Skirk Prospector really isn't all that worth it, despite being nifty with Sharpshooter. You want more Goblins on the table for Piledriver and Gempalm. You're much better off running something like War Marshal that complements this.

DragoFireheart

07-19-2009, 11:47 PM

All I know is that Kaleb King top 2'd with a full compliment of Mogg Flunkies. It must be a sign!

Maybe, but not for Piledrivers.

TOGITwill

07-20-2009, 01:01 AM

This is true, but there were no Vials.

Shriekmaw

07-20-2009, 11:08 AM

QFT.
If it was for Tin Street in an artifact infested meta, or Scourger in a Tombstalker infested one would be ok.

Still flunkies aren't convincing me. Especially when you have plenty of options. Chieftain, Scourger, Tin Street and even Tinkerer seems better.

I think 2 mana for a 3/3 beater is a reason good enough to run it. Especially in an area where zoo is getting more popular. I would never run the full set of flunkies, but 2 or 3 seems good to me.

The main reason I am not running more than 2 chieftains is b/c of the mana cost at 3. I want creatures that fit the curve much better b/c I am replacing mogg fanatics.

DragoFireheart

07-20-2009, 08:11 PM

I think 2 mana for a 3/3 beater is a reason good enough to run it. Especially in an area where zoo is getting more popular. I would never run the full set of flunkies, but 2 or 3 seems good to me.

The problem with Flunkies is, god forbid, someone kill your other goblins and just leave him to sit there and do nothing.

The main reason I am not running more than 2 chieftains is b/c of the mana cost at 3. I want creatures that fit the curve much better b/c I am replacing mogg fanatics.

They are really good. Getting two of him into play is a good way to fight Goblins weakness to Pyroclasm and/or Plague.. I'd try to run 4 and simply increase our mana count to see if they are worth it.

FoulQ

07-20-2009, 11:06 PM

And the problem with Piledriver is, god forbid, someone kill your other goblins and just leave him to sit there and do nothing (oh attack for one into a goyf my bad).

Have you tested flunkies? Nick has been on this thread for a long time, 3 piledrivers works, and flunkies is good against many other aggro decks. YES, flunkies has a drawback, oh my god. Would I play him in my meta? Probably not, but its not fair to dismiss the idea so easily. Flunkies is ok in some metas.

And yes, getting two chieftains into play is a cool thing, but relying on combat math instead of tribal synergy seems to be a bad idea. Though I haven't fully tested it so I'm not going to just throw claims out there about potential weaknesses.

snackfu

07-21-2009, 12:00 AM

As I stated previously, I think it is a bad move to run anything less than 4 Piledrivers main. Feel free to do whatever you think is appropriate.

However, at no time did I disparage the Flunkies. In fact, I ran them in a real old Goblin Sligh build (pre-storm combo) that won a piece of power.

Now onto my main thoughts on the deck:
I am unsure about having only 8 one-drops, yet I don't want to fill up the slot with sub-optimal junk. The same goes for the notriously weak two-drop slot, yet I do like what I am seeing, i.e. Mogg War Marshall in conjunction with Chieftain. As stated before, Chieftain is a decent mainboard answer to Plagues especially for Mono Red. Without Chieftains, I can see Flunkies as being better. With Chieftains, I think War Marshall gets the nod.

One final question: Does anyone face Affinity anymore? Master of Etherium is a beating with that deck. I was wondering what people are siding for that thing, or if it has fallen off the radar enough that people don't have it in mind anymore. I had 3 Tinkerers and 2 Shattering Spree, but that wasn't enough at the last tournament (although I did make a boneheaded play, I would have most likely still lost). I don't want to overdo it, but as you all know Affinity can kick the snot out of an unprepared field. What do you guys side in that match up?

GreenOne

07-21-2009, 03:39 AM

I don't want to overdo it, but as you all know Affinity can kick the snot out of an unprepared field. What do you guys side in that match up? I'm usually siding Kinesis, a Tinkerer and sometimes Sharpshooter. But affinity is usually not a big concern in any meta. If it becomes so, the meta will adapt and the deck will vanish.

Melwis

07-22-2009, 11:55 AM

Has anyone tested Bloodmark Mentor in Goblins? It seems to me Piledriver would love First Strike. Also, you really don't want to trade your Goblins with your opponents 1/1 and/or 2/2 creatures so giving your creatures First Strike would make it possible to attack your opponent earlier instead of waiting until you have enough Goblins out. I'm not saying run 4 but maybe as a 1-of to Matron for in certain situations?

Zinch

07-22-2009, 12:03 PM

I've playint it lately as a 1 of. It's not gamebreaking, but is a very good critter in some situations. I don't say its mandatory, but it's a solid option, I think.

1maarten1

07-22-2009, 12:32 PM

Hi i am playing a mono-R version for a while now, but im still kinda new to the deck so i have some small ''rookie'' questions.

-What has priority? T1 vial or T1 Lackey? (assuming that u dont know what your playing against, i dont think it matters if you do right??)

-What are the sideboard options vs Merfolk & Zoo, my sb consists of:
4 chalice of the void
4 pyrokinesis
4 pyrostatic pillar
2 relic of progenitus
1 goblin sharpshooter

Thanks alot :)

Ectoplasm

07-22-2009, 12:40 PM

beastman

07-22-2009, 12:41 PM

I personally always go for vial first. Its much harder to get rid of, and it drops an uncounterable lackey for you the next turn.

tivadar

07-22-2009, 12:56 PM

-What has priority? T1 vial or T1 Lackey? (assuming that u dont know what your playing against, i dont think it matters if you do right??)

It completely does matter what you're playing against. If you're on play and you know the deck you're playing against runs blue, drop the 1st turn vial. Negating all of their couterspells is awesome. If you're running against a quick aggro deck, especially one with burn, drop the lackey. They'll either have to answer him, taking burn away from your head, or deal with your hordes of goblins.

GreenOne

07-22-2009, 12:59 PM

I personally always go for vial first. Its much harder to get rid of, and it drops an uncounterable lackey for you the next turn.
Idem, usually.
If I'm on the play and got a turn 3 win in hand (SGC, Pile) then I might start with Lackey.
If I'm on the draw against a deck that lands Tropical Island or Underground sea, I play lackey first. If it's Combo (U.Sea) then it's better to get speedy. If it's goyf based aggrocontrol, since they played a land that cannot cast STP or Bolt, I go with lackey first and have a Daze proof Vial next turn.

EDIT: I also go for vial if I don't have juice to drop with lackey. Dropping Piledriver with lackey is so meh.

Nessaja

07-22-2009, 01:00 PM

It completely does matter what you're playing against. If you're on play and you know the deck you're playing against runs blue, drop the 1st turn vial. Negating all of their couterspells is awesome. If you're running against a quick aggro deck, especially one with burn, drop the lackey. They'll either have to answer him, taking burn away from your head, or deal with your hordes of goblins.
I usually go turn 1 Lackey turn 2 Vial against counters because I want to lure out the FoW. When you're on the play against a blue based deck that only has FoW as a t1 answer against goblins they usually even mull for it. You really want the vial to stick and there are too many answers against Lackey IMO.

Tacosnape

07-22-2009, 02:06 PM

I think against a blind deck, Vial-versus-Lackey depends on your hand.

If you've got, say:

Mountain
Bloodstained Mire
Wasteland
Goblin Lackey
Aether Vial
Warren Weirding
Siege-Gang Commander

Then I think there's no way you don't lead with the Lackey that hand. Your chances of connection are good, and your reward for connecting is huge. If they drop a blocker, Weirding them. If they Force your Lackey, you drew out the Force for a Vial next turn. If they remove your Lackey, Waste their land, drop the Vial, and go from there.

However, if you're sitting on something like:

Mountain
Bloodstained Mire
Wasteland
Goblin Ringleader
Goblin Piledriver
Goblin Lackey
Aether Vial

Then I think you lead with the Aether Vial. Your chances of the Lackey connecting are lower, and your reward isn't as large. Plus, by leading with the vial, you get the chance at the sneaky "EOT-Vial out a Lackey-oh hey look you don't have an untapped blocker" play. Leading with the Vial here provides a chance for a turn two Wasteland, also, thus buying time to charge the counters.

Tacosnape

07-27-2009, 06:17 PM

(Advance apologies for double posting, but this has nothing to do with the previous topic.)

So whoever got me into Mogg War Marshal is now my hero. This guy improves every matchup ever. He accelerates my deck against combo better than Frogtosser. He's the best thing ever with Gempalm. He helps Piledriver. He buys a much needed turn of chump blocking against decks more aggro than you, like Zoo.

The neatest thing Mogg War Marshal's done for me in recent testing, is, well. Okay. Every long-time Goblin player at some point or another has gotten the god explosion of turn one Lackey, turn two swing, connect, drop Warchief, play two Piledrivers, kill you turn three. War Marshal makes this actually more likely off a Lackey connection. Instead of dropping two Piledrivers after Lackeying in the Warchief, it's possible to drop Piledriver/War Marshal, setting up nearly as good of a swing next turn (17-18 next turn with one additional Goblin played on turn three).

Here's my current list. Simple and straightforward. Might experiment with cutting two Hovels to go up to 6 mountains, as I don't need the black for Frogtosser anymore, but on occasion I need to be able to cast two Weirdings a turn, so I'm not sure yet.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Gemstone Caverns

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle / Goblin Chieftain (Depends on meta. Still testing.)

Melwis

07-29-2009, 02:58 PM

Tacosnape

07-29-2009, 03:14 PM

Can someone tell me what the usual gameplan of Goblins is when facing pure aggro decks like Zoo that throws out lots of creatures? What do you Matron for? Do you just try to put out even more creatures than your opponent does and wait until you think you can swing for the win? Would a good tactic be to get a Piledriver out (along with lots of other Goblins) and then use Gempalm on the chump blocker to get Piledriver through?

To Taco: Yes I like War Marshal to ;) About the list: No MD artifact removal needed?

Goblins plan against Zoo is to stall, effectively, until about turn five or six, upon which Goblins does what it does in virtually every creature mirror ever: It completely overwhelms the competition. The problem is, this is very very very difficult to do against Zoo. Zoo burns your Goblins and Pridemages your Aether Vials.

What you Matron for depends largely on the situation, but the Piledriver scenario you listed isn't one of your best options. Even if Zoo's tapped out, you have absolutely no guarantee they don't have a Fireblast waiting on that huge Piledriver.

As for MD artifact removal, eh. I don't find it terribly necessary, truth be told. Here are the artifacts I expect to face in game one on any sort of a regular basis, and why I don't feel a huge need to compensate for them.

1. Sensei's Divining Top: It bounces to the top of library in response.
2. Phyrexian Dreadnought: I have Warren Weirding and Matron. Could use a little more help, but eh.
3. Mishra's Factory: Eats it to Gempalm and Wasteland.
4. Umezawa's Jitte: Most decks keep this in the board, and it's avoidable by killing off their creatures.
5. Aether Vial: This would be the main reason I'd run a Tinkerer, but I get by generally by abusing Vial better than any other deck I'm up against.
6. Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond: Generally Ignoreable.
7. Chalice of the Void: Chalice at 1 doesn't hurt all that bad. Chalice at 2 can be circumvented in part with Aether Vial. Chalice at both sucks, but is rare.
8. Trinisphere: Aether Vial, and aggressive cycling of Gempalms to hit the third land.

If I really expected a huge wave of artifacts in my metagame, my last three flex slots could be the ever difficult to stop Shattering Spree, who eats Dreadnoughts and Chalice/Trinisphere combinations for breakfast.

Melwis

07-29-2009, 04:17 PM

I also wonder seeing your list Taco: Would you advise anyone to splash black solely for Weirding or is it more of a personal taste/metagame call?

My list is as follows:

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer

I'm guessing you will comment on both the Rishadan Port and Incinerator count. I only run 2 Port because I don't feel comfortable running less than 16 Mountains and it's not always you can capitalize on it anyways. The reason I have 3 Incinerators is simple: i'm testing Stingscourger out to see wether I like it or not so I upped the count instead of playing it as a 1-of.

Edit: Managed to forget adding Aether Vial to the list but I guess it's so obvious it's in there that you don't actually have to write it ^^

Tacosnape

07-29-2009, 05:15 PM

I also wonder seeing your list Taco: Would you advise anyone to splash black solely for Weirding or is it more of a personal taste/metagame call?

Weirding and Cabal Therapy. It makes a difference. Therapy/War Marshal wins games. And yes I would. Weirding's that ridiculous. I've also not entirely committed to ditching Frogtosser at this point, but that's irrelevant.

My list is as follows:

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Tinkerer

I'm guessing you will comment on both the Rishadan Port and Incinerator count. I only run 2 Port because I don't feel comfortable running less than 16 Mountains and it's not always you can capitalize on it anyways. The reason I have 3 Incinerators is simple: i'm testing Stingscourger out to see wether I like it or not so I upped the count instead of playing it as a 1-of.

I actually kind of like that list sans the lack of removal. If I'm running Mono-Red, I want at -least- four removal guys, probably close to six. Therefore I'd definitely find room for the fourth Incinerator, especially given how much better it is with War Marshal, or at least a Stingscourger.

Waikiki

07-29-2009, 05:32 PM

@taco, are the gemstones really needed Im always a big fan of port. Wouldn't that be better in that slot? Is caverns that great on the draw?

ScatmanX

07-30-2009, 12:06 AM

Caverns is not really needed, but is sure is great. I´m with 2 right now, and I can say that, they never hurted me in any game, and in the games they came in Turn 0, they rocked.
Daze proved Lackey or Vial Turn 1.
Drop AND use Port after your 1st Turn.
Drop Vial or Lackey and Wasteland.
Drop any 2cc dude, or Chalice of the Void @1, or cycle...

Summing up: It leads to some very good plays, but is not necessary.

Tacosnape

07-30-2009, 11:27 AM

Caverns are incredible. Period. Here's why I run them.

1. No other deck in the format runs them, so the drawback of being legendary is pretty nonexistant.

2. Goblins is at its weakest on the draw, and this problem was made worse with the nerfing of Mogg Fanatic. Caverns lets Goblins have a fighting shot against decks like even Zoo on the draw. It allows for turn one Weirding, turn one Mogg War Marshal, turn one Lackey/Vial in conjunction. More importantly, it makes the point where you go ridiculous happen one turn sooner.

3. I can afford to have the two lands that produce colorless because I don't run Rishadan Port. Rishadan Port is just awful in most matchups. The format's too fast for a deck as slow as Goblins to be spending two mana to keep the opponent off of 1. Plus, one of Port's finest points was that Goblins once didn't have a lot else to do with two mana, and buying the time at that point was a huge key to success. Now, my list has sixteen things to do with two mana (Driver, War Marshal, Wedirding, Cycle an Incinerator.)

Test Caverns out. Once you get the hang of what to pitch to it, you'll love it.

Pastorofmuppets

07-30-2009, 11:59 AM

What about Cabal Slaver? I know its not efficient or particularly a Goblin, but disruption is always great in my book.

Tacosnape

07-30-2009, 03:50 PM

dr4g0n

07-30-2009, 07:12 PM

Cabal Slaver, along with Cover of Darkness, have been cards that I've been tinkering around with since the format was created. The long and the short of it is that they just don't play out nearly as well as they should.

Slaver might be better with Mogg War Marshal, but I somehow doubt he'll warrant play. Try him out in the board's flex slots though.

I've also been testing Slaver, and one of my major problems with him is that he is not a goblin. I know this might not be much, but it makes life a pain when you can't Matron for him, Ringleader flips are useless, he doesn't have enough synergy with the rest of the deck, etc.

Don't get me wrong, Slaver might be good in some builds of the deck, but I have tried him, and he just doesn't work for me.

ScatmanX

07-30-2009, 08:31 PM

Cover of Darkness seems better, since it can make Lackey conect Turn2, being 2cc, but I don´t know if neither are worth it.

Tacosnape

07-31-2009, 07:18 AM

Cover of Darkness seems better, since it can make Lackey conect Turn2, being 2cc, but I don´t know if neither are worth it.

Cover was better when Goblins could just outrace things. Goblins doesn't do that as well anymore. It kind of needs a Lackey to connect to do it. If it doesn't get the Lackey, it has to play a controlling role for two or three turns, then just vomit up 600 little red men and win. It's always been like this, but now the rest of the format's faster, so it's harder to just occasionally go aggro with weaker Goblins.

Waikiki

07-31-2009, 07:28 AM

How has the new lord been in testing ?

johanessen

07-31-2009, 07:29 AM

then just vomit up 600 little red men and win.

Goblins are green! :p

I've been trying caverns and i liked it over rishadan ports also, speeds the deck to get 3cc online faster than ever when we are on the draw. I'll continue with it.

Nessaja

07-31-2009, 08:34 AM

3. I can afford to have the two lands that produce colorless because I don't run Rishadan Port. Rishadan Port is just awful in most matchups. The format's too fast for a deck as slow as Goblins to be spending two mana to keep the opponent off of 1. Plus, one of Port's finest points was that Goblins once didn't have a lot else to do with two mana, and buying the time at that point was a huge key to success. Now, my list has sixteen things to do with two mana (Driver, War Marshal, Wedirding, Cycle an Incinerator.)
I've won so many games on the back of Rishadan Port that I really need to put some question marks with this statement. I think the main strength of Goblins is that it plays a strong aggro role while still being disrupting the opponents gameplan with ports and wastelands. Remove these control elements and you just have an aggro deck that is typically worse then Zoo.