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ScatmanX
07-31-2009, 10:53 AM
In Rb version, 4 Wastes, 3 Ports, 2 Caverns, 4 Badlands, 6 Fetches and 4 Mountains have been working preety nicely. Never had a problem.
I will not be cutting Port so soon. It simply WIN matches. And it is very good WITH Caverns!

Tacosnape
07-31-2009, 03:18 PM
Okay, first off, I'll concede that in Mono Red, you probably should run Port. It's too difficult for an opponent to keep you off of colored mana when you run all basics for that to be a factor.

Secondly, all I'm seeing about Port is meaningless hyperbole. Saying Port wins games and creates tempo boosts doesn't indicate how it actually does either one of these thing.

Let's start with a fundamental understanding of Port. Port costs two mana to use: The one you spend to activate it, and the one you aren't able to draw from Port because you're using its other ability. Port denies your opponent of one mana if and only if they can't spend the mana on an instant or activated ability. This, in a vacuum, is not a tempo boost. This is a tempo loss.

To gain tempo from Port, you need to be drawing a significant advantage by stalling for time, which Goblins admittedly does. But Goblins only does so when either it has an Aether Vial that's building up counters, or it has a relatively pressure-free board and is playing an opponent that, like most, has a worse long game than Goblins.

Now. Of everything in the DTB forum, the Landstills are probably the only time where Port is undisputably great. Against Tempo Thresh if you're mono-red, they can be useful also, keeping opponents off of either Pyroclasm or Tarmogoyf in select situations. They will also be useful on occasion against anything that's struggling to draw land.

Now. Weigh that against the drawbacks. Every time you're using Waste/Port or Port/Port to tap a land down, it could be cycling Gempalm, playing Piledriver, playing Mogg War Marshal, or if you're RB, playing Warren Weirding. And every time you hit Mountain/Waste/Port, you have to factor in that if there's a Chief in your hand, you could be playing him. You also mulligan more hands that start without red sources. You also have less explosive power with 4 mana on the board, where it's a lot more likely you won't be able to play Warchief/Any 2-drop on the same turn.

The drawbacks of it just don't make it worth it for me in 2-color. I'd much rather have my 18 red sources and be more consistent and run a hair less in the mana denial department.

Melwis
08-01-2009, 05:40 AM
Okay, first off, I'll concede that in Mono Red, you probably should run Port. It's too difficult for an opponent to keep you off of colored mana when you run all basics for that to be a factor.

Secondly, all I'm seeing about Port is meaningless hyperbole. Saying Port wins games and creates tempo boosts doesn't indicate how it actually does either one of these thing.

Let's start with a fundamental understanding of Port. Port costs two mana to use: The one you spend to activate it, and the one you aren't able to draw from Port because you're using its other ability. Port denies your opponent of one mana if and only if they can't spend the mana on an instant or activated ability. This, in a vacuum, is not a tempo boost. This is a tempo loss.

To gain tempo from Port, you need to be drawing a significant advantage by stalling for time, which Goblins admittedly does. But Goblins only does so when either it has an Aether Vial that's building up counters, or it has a relatively pressure-free board and is playing an opponent that, like most, has a worse long game than Goblins.

Now. Of everything in the DTB forum, the Landstills are probably the only time where Port is undisputably great. Against Tempo Thresh if you're mono-red, they can be useful also, keeping opponents off of either Pyroclasm or Tarmogoyf in select situations. They will also be useful on occasion against anything that's struggling to draw land.

Now. Weigh that against the drawbacks. Every time you're using Waste/Port or Port/Port to tap a land down, it could be cycling Gempalm, playing Piledriver, playing Mogg War Marshal, or if you're RB, playing Warren Weirding. And every time you hit Mountain/Waste/Port, you have to factor in that if there's a Chief in your hand, you could be playing him. You also mulligan more hands that start without red sources. You also have less explosive power with 4 mana on the board, where it's a lot more likely you won't be able to play Warchief/Any 2-drop on the same turn.

The drawbacks of it just don't make it worth it for me in 2-color. I'd much rather have my 18 red sources and be more consistent and run a hair less in the mana denial department.

I agree with this. Port is only useful when you have Vial out or, as Taco says, when you're not being pressured. Most of the time Port is nothing more then a colorless land that sometimes keeps you from casting your RR spells or in certain matchups, gets targeted by Wasteland slowing you down significantly.

I think that any Goblin deck out there should have atleast 16 red mana sources and if you're running 4 Ports with less then this I would advice you to cut 1-2 of them, they will do you more harm then good.

Tacosnape
08-01-2009, 11:00 AM
In their defense, Mono-Red builds seem to be running 23-24 land, which usually means that Wasteland targeting their Port is not a huge concern. Wasteland in general isn't a concern for them, actually, Which is why Port's stronger in Red. When you run Port and a splash, your concern shifts not from having your Ports wasted, but to having your duals wasted and being cut off enough red to be ridiculous.

Melwis
08-01-2009, 04:00 PM
In their defense, Mono-Red builds seem to be running 23-24 land, which usually means that Wasteland targeting their Port is not a huge concern. Wasteland in general isn't a concern for them, actually, Which is why Port's stronger in Red. When you run Port and a splash, your concern shifts not from having your Ports wasted, but to having your duals wasted and being cut off enough red to be ridiculous.

Well ok, I only run 22 lands in my mono-red list but with 23-24 lands I guess you can feel more safe.

Why do mono-red Goblins want/need more lands than the splashed versions if I may ask?

Tacosnape
08-01-2009, 04:59 PM
Well ok, I only run 22 lands in my mono-red list but with 23-24 lands I guess you can feel more safe.

Why do mono-red Goblins want/need more lands than the splashed versions if I may ask?

Goblins is a mana-hungry deck. 22's pretty much the absolute minimum you should run. 24 with Port actually helps your consistency in hitting land drops while giving you something to do to stall for time while making said land drops. Assuming your skull isn't getting cracked open meanwhile.

GreenOne
08-01-2009, 07:44 PM
Well ok, I only run 22 lands in my mono-red list but with 23-24 lands I guess you can feel more safe.

Why do mono-red Goblins want/need more lands than the splashed versions if I may ask?
Every goblin deck wants to run 23 or 24 lands, unless it has strong reasons to run less. One of those reasons could be the maindeck Frogtosserers, or MD Relic of progenitus (more cycling effects). or a lower mana curve.

Monored often wants to have a good number of lands to maximize the number of ports and to support the higher (with the new addition Chieftain) curve.

Shanghi Knights
08-01-2009, 08:46 PM
How has the new lord been in testing ?

the new goblins lords a more rounded option for the goblin king spot if you deck allows space for kings. less you know you know you will be facing off against other red decks.

having more goblin haste options beyond warchief is a plus.

Manhattan
08-01-2009, 10:20 PM
I find that with the death of Fanatic this deck is lacking in turn 1 plays (only vial and lackey left). It also loses tremendous edge against Ichorid.
Turn 2 Piledriver, Turn 3 Warchief swing for 5 just isn't going to be fast enough, meaning you'll pretty much be forced to mull for onedropp, not really atractive from my point of view.
I've read reports of variing success with Relic, Frenzied Goblin/Intimidator Initiate. While Relic might be the better card in a vacuum, the Goblins synergize far better with the rest of the deck. Both cards prefer certain situations to really shine but Relic is far more dependent on those.
And the Goblins actually address the aforementioned problem.

kicks_422
08-01-2009, 10:30 PM
WHat's the reasoning behind cutting Mogg Fanatics in the first place? Their main uses were to self-sacrifice against Bridges, chump block against huge fatties and still ping for 1, and shoot Birds/Lackeys/Confidants/other x/1's. I didn't think gunning down x/2's on the defensive were a main thing.

Amon Amarth
08-01-2009, 11:16 PM
WHat's the reasoning behind cutting Mogg Fanatics in the first place? Their main uses were to self-sacrifice against Bridges, chump block against huge fatties and still ping for 1, and shoot Birds/Lackeys/Confidants/other x/1's. I didn't think gunning down x/2's on the defensive were a main thing.

Honestly in certain metas I could definitely see keeping Fanatics in the MD. He is really good against Survival decks, Mirror, Elves, Ichorid, and a whole bunch of randomness. He's just not amazing against some of the DTB's out there. Since almost every Zoo list has no 2 toughness creatures the rules change to combat damage does not really affect Fanatic. Many of the 2 toughness creatures out there are hatebears or Lords. You shouldn't have too much trouble against those decks with or without Fanatic.

I'd still play Fanatic if I wasn't so high off of War Marshall + Goblin Chieftain.

Malchar
08-02-2009, 12:11 AM
Has anyone considered using goblin grappler in the 1 mana slot? It seems similar to intimidator initiate but less mana-hungry.

Koby
08-02-2009, 05:37 AM
What about Skirk Prospector in a mana-minimum list to shore up the missing 1 drop? With a Warchief/Frogtosser, a War Marshal becomes a Rite of Flames giving you more mana to go stupid with your hand. I've gotten quite a few "Oops, I win" plays as early as turn 3 with that combo.

GreenOne
08-02-2009, 06:51 AM
I find that with the death of Fanatic this deck is lacking in turn 1 plays (only vial and lackey left). It also loses tremendous edge against Ichorid.
Turn 2 Piledriver, Turn 3 Warchief swing for 5 just isn't going to be fast enough, meaning you'll pretty much be forced to mull for onedropp, not really atractive from my point of view.
Stingscourger partially solves the problem. Bouncing a Moeba/Token blocking for a turn and removing bridges usually does the work.

Manhattan
08-02-2009, 08:21 AM
Stingscourger partially solves the problem. Bouncing a Moeba/Token blocking for a turn and removing bridges usually does the work.

The damage to the Ichorid-matchup was a sidenote. The primary focus of my post was that any Goblin-start without an onedropp is going to have troubles getting in for lethal before the controlplayers can set themselves up (I am referring to control in the context of Mike Flores' principle of "who's the beatdown?"). While a onedropp doesn't guarantee a good hand, it curves out hands more smoothly.
Fanatic was the essential onedropp 9-12 for most of this decks history. However he has recently suffered heavy damage from Tarmogoyf and now is facing down a crippling rules change. If it weren't for Ichorid I'd dismiss him outright.

Malchar
08-02-2009, 10:41 AM
I don't see the rules change hurting Fanatic that much. I can't recall facing very many troublesome creatures with 2 toughness. Fanatic still kills anything with 1 toughness, and it still fails to kill anything with more than 2 toughness. Unless people were attacking with 4 fanatics into a Tarmogoyf and sacrificing all of with damage on the stack pre-m2010, the rules don't make that much of a difference. The real killer of fanatic remains to be Tarmogoyf.

Shanghi Knights
08-02-2009, 01:39 PM
if fanatic isn't going to be super helpful in the meta why not just opt his spot in a build for rite of flame. certainly speeds up the turn clock for droping heavier cost goblins. plus if the land/warchief just isn't there a second one could power that crucially needed seige gang or ringleader.

Tacosnape
08-02-2009, 01:50 PM
Rite of Flame is a terrible idea. It's a one shot boost of one red mana in a deck that doesn't have any single bombs worthy of the extra boost that don't cost exactly one in the first place. I'd rather run Chrome Mox or just more land.

Seriously, though? It's not automatically the end of the world if you don't nail a 1-drop on the play. It's pretty bad on the draw, but two Gemstone Caverns increases your chances here.

Skirk Prospector isn't a great idea because he sacrifices your threats, which you want as many of in play as possible, to get generally equal or less red mana than you spent to play them in the first place.

Goblin Grappler is pretty weak too. The only plus side of him is that he's fantastic against Birds of Paradise and Dark Confidant, and that he can sneak a Piledriver through. But you aren't really in fantastic shape when your turn one play is Land, Grappler, go.

Of everything suggested, Fanatic's still the best other one drop, and if everyone in the world starts playing toughness-1 guys, thinking it's a free world to do so now that Mogg Fanatic is dead, then sticking a couple back in a list isn't necessarily a terrible idea. Since M10, I've seen all kinds 1-toughness guys crawling out of the woodworks, including Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Welder, Ball Lightning, Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves, Voidmage Prodigy, etc. And Fanatic kills Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise and Confidant and so forth. So it's possible that at some point Fanatic will come back to keep all that somewhat in check. Thing is, though, if all these 1-drops come into prominence, you've still got Gempalm Incinerator and Pyrokinesis in board to handle things.

The other alternative, IMO, is just not to run bad 1-drops to replace Fanatic.

Shanghi Knights
08-02-2009, 02:13 PM
no offence tacosnape but i fail to see how a lot of the 1/1s your thinking of were ever gone to begin with. i will agree with welder being gone though i haven't seen him in a legacy deck in a long time. in addition ball lighting/groundbreaker/blistering firecat.

just my thoughts but a maindeck sharpshooter and 4 gem palms are enough to deal with them without designating more deck space to the problem of 1/1s

(nameless one)
08-02-2009, 11:49 PM
ive been playtesting this build. its mono-red

15 Mountains
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker

Sideboard:
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree
2 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Stingscourger

Mogg Fanatic, although not as good as it used to be is still good. It could still plow the way for Goblin Lackey on turn 2. It can get rid of Bridge from Below as well as little pesky X/1 utility creatures.

Goblin Sharpshooter is there just incase although for the most part, it will be sided.

Goblin Cheiftain is there as Warchief 5-6, as well as Engineered Plague nerfer.

Although this build has less control elements compared to its R/B counterparts, it is geared to be faster and more consistent

any comments yall want to add, please feel free to do so. Im pretty sure the sideboard needs a little facelift

Koby
08-03-2009, 02:56 AM
Skirk Prospecter works better as a combo with Sharpshoot than any other suggestion. He also helps beat Ichorid much better than Fanatic alone would. Lastly, Turn 2 Warchief w/o Lackey. Also combos with Mogg War Marshal to generate RRR from 1R invested.

The former two are the most important, while the latter two are just situational. I'd sooner play Prospector in a vacuum than Fanatic.

GreenOne
08-03-2009, 03:28 AM
any comments yall want to add, please feel free to do so. Im pretty sure the sideboard needs a little facelift
Please, don't run the Kiki-jiki in the maindeck. The guy is not impressive, and you play just 22 lands, so you better have a smooth curve.
The Sharpshooter MD does not make much sense. You say that you often side it out, so why don't you just play Stingscourger maindeck and Sharpshooter SB? Seems like a good amount of decks are playing creatures, so Sting is often more relevant as tutorable way of nerfing Dreadnought, Tombstalker, or even Goyf or a goblin stolen with Shackles (tech!).

Pastorofmuppets
08-03-2009, 04:26 AM
if fanatic isn't going to be super helpful in the meta why not just opt his spot in a build for rite of flame. certainly speeds up the turn clock for droping heavier cost goblins. plus if the land/warchief just isn't there a second one could power that crucially needed seige gang or ringleader.

I prefer Tarfire.

Melwis
08-03-2009, 11:04 AM
If you still want to include a third 1-drop in Goblins there is alot of different options now since Fanatic isn't a no-brainer (still very strong though as mentioned). These are the cards I think you can choose from:

Frenzied Goblin - Similar to Goblin Grappler but requires more mana (Mountains to be precise). If the mana is there he can help connecting with either Lackey or Piledriver.

Goblin Grappler - See above.

Goblin Sledder - I am sure this has been discussed many times before but I think this could have potential especially now when Mogg War Marshal is being used. The ability to save your Warchief, Piledriver, Lackey or Siege-Gang Commander should be useful now and then.

Mogg Fanatic - Everyone knows what Fanatic does. Still a very good one drop.

Mudbutton Clanger - Could become big if you get him out early.

Skirk Prospector - It does have synergy with War Marshal but sacrificing Goblins to play more Goblins doesn't seem to lead you anywhere.

Scuzzback Scraper - Wither isn't bad. The counter might help Incinerators kill of bigger creatures (Goyf mostly).

Tarfire - Tarfire isn't bad but I would argue that since it's not a creature, it just doesn't deserve a slot. The biggest reason to run a third one drop imo is to get Goblins out asap to make your Piledrivers and/or Incinerators useful. Perhaps i'm wrong though.

Tattermunge Maniac - 2/1 for 1 mana is never bad but his drawback will cause trouble when you want to keep as many of your Goblins alive.

If running Rb version there is also these cards to consider:

Boggart Birth Rite - Same thing as with Tarfire, it's not a creature. And probably less useful then Tarfire overall.

Festering Goblin - This little fellow is not to be dismissed. Even with a 1/2 on the other side your opponent will think twice before blocking him. Small synergy with Goblin Sledder (perhaps a 2/2 split could be nice?) and Siege-Gang.

Knucklebone Witch - I'm not sure but the synergy with War Marshal and Siege-Gang Commander could potentially make this guy a threat if played early. Also works nicely with Goblin Sledder (perhaps a 2/2 split could work with these aswell?).

Now, what is your favorite(s)? =)

Tacosnape
08-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Fanatic's the only playable card on that list, and it's questionable.

I admit to testing Tarfire in my desperation for 1-drops and it was occasionally okay, enough to where I'd probably rank it second on that list, but blegh. It's Shock. Don't do it.

GreenOne
08-03-2009, 12:44 PM
I'd only play Fanatic or Goblin Vandal (in heavy artifact metas).
Some number of Caverns are better than both.

Melwis
08-03-2009, 04:06 PM
I think Goblin Sledder might be more useful then you think. Perhaps not as a 4-of since you only need one out but I think 2 is a good number. Making your important Goblins harder to kill and having synergy with War Marshal + Stingscourger (Echo) I think it can do good.

I'm still not sure if I like Frenzied Goblin and/or Goblin Grappler. Most of the times they will probably be just 1/1. But sometimes they might just let your Lackey or 5-7-9/2 Piledriver connect and then they will be gamebreaking.

Mudbutton Clanger, while it does seem to suck, it could be nice in the Rb version running fetches. I don't think i'm wrong when I say the guy could become a 3/3 fairly easy while also serving as a kinda crappy (but mana free) card quality engine together with fetches.

ScatmanX
08-03-2009, 04:21 PM
+1/+1 is just untill end of turn.

Melwis
08-03-2009, 04:47 PM
+1/+1 is just untill end of turn.

I am aware of that, but using the ability to your advantage on War Marshal is only for the better (unless you where going to pay the Echo cost next upkeep ofcourse which I hardly never do).

What I mean is the ability can make your Warchief (for example) harder to Bolt or whatever. Or just to pick a situation: Your opponent has a 2/x on the board and you can attack with Goblin + Sledder + Piledriver. Normally you would be afraid to attack and perhaps wait to save your Piledriver for when it becomes bigger but with Sledder's ability you get the option of losing a 1/1 instead of Piledriver while playing more aggressively, something Goblins seldom can do.

This was just a scenario, i'm sure there's plenty of more use to Sledder's ability.

ClearSkies
08-03-2009, 04:59 PM
Would the sacrifice goblin (Either Sledder or Skirk Prospector) + Kiki + Lightning Crafter be considered a win-more combo in a Goblin deck?

It is an infinite combo if there is no interruptions.

Koby
08-03-2009, 05:24 PM
Would the sacrifice goblin (Either Sledder or Skirk Prospector) + Kiki + Lightning Crafter be considered a win-more combo in a Goblin deck?

It is an infinite combo if there is no interruptions.

It requires 2 singleton Goblins and a sacrifice outlet. You're better off with Sharpshoot and the sacrifice outlet.

Mantis
08-04-2009, 09:07 AM
The only 1 drop worth considering is Relic beyond Lackey and Vial. Fanatic was awful even before the rules change, but we collectively failed to realize it back then.

Im glad people are adopting War Marshal, chumping appears to be a winning strategy, how weird. Props to mad genius GreenOne for this one!

I havent had the chance to test out Chieftain but it will at least be a 1 of in my list for sure. Im eager to hear results.

Port wont leave my deck, its undisputed. Turning at slight tempo advantage into at game breaking one has won me countless of games. Same for stopping Factories or Mutavaults. Keeping a Moat off the board or just manascrew someone are gravy. The best thing about Port: it taps for mana. Not running it in Mono R is a mistake imo. Caverns is nice but just not on the same powerlevel as Port and 8 colorless lands looks like the maximum amount. I do think this opinion is based on playstyle as I often run Goblins pretty defensively or try to bank on tempoadvantage.

GreenOne
08-04-2009, 09:56 AM
The only 1 drop worth considering is Relic beyond Lackey and Vial. Fanatic was awful even before the rules change, but we collectively failed to realize it back then.
Hard to tell, but probably true.

Im glad people are adopting War Marshal, chumping appears to be a winning strategy, how weird. Props to mad genius GreenOne for this one!
Yay!

I havent had the chance to test out Chieftain but it will at least be a 1 of in my list for sure. Im eager to hear results.
I first started playing 3, but it did mess with the curve sometimes. I'd suggest running 3 only in Gemstone Caverns versions.
I'm now running 2, and god is it sexy! I'd never drop below 2 for sure at least in monored. He's actually better than warchief in the late game (when you have a lot of lands in play but just a couple goblins in hand), he's awesome with War Marshal, he let you not overextend much against sweepers and still have a good clock (matron/ringleader/war marshal+chieftain = 4/5/6 DMG = you're at least on par with a Goyf). He helps the alpha strike strategy a lot, and actually quite functions like Piledriver 5-6. Oh, and it's also a maindeck solution to plague, freeing a couple of SB slots.


Port wont leave my deck, its undisputed. [...] Caverns is nice but just not on the same powerlevel as Port and 8 colorless lands looks like the maximum amount. I do think this opinion is based on playstyle as I often run Goblins pretty defensively or try to bank on tempoadvantage.
I don't think 8 colorless is the maximum the deck can afford. I do believe 15 coloured ones is the minimum a goblin deck can play though. In other words, I'd use a manabase with 15 mountains, 4 Ports, 4 wastes, and then add some number of caverns if I want to run more than 23 lands, reduce the number of ports if I want to run less lands (I'd never do it though).

Just for the record I'm now playing a version with:
23 lands (no Caverns) + the usual 4ofs, +
2 War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
1 Tinkerer
2 Chieftain

christophenuss
08-04-2009, 04:31 PM
Hi everyone I have followed this thread for a while, but it is my first post. This is what I am working with post rotation. I have always run 61 cards in my deck its something I do as its less than a 2% chance of "devastating me".

Some choices I made are in the lands. Even though its mono Red I didn't want to run 10 colorless lands. And I do like the Gemstone Caverns as a 2 of giving me about a 15% chance of 2 mana on turn 1. And I like waste over port because of my 2 drop situation.

And I am trying out lightning bolt and so far I like it. It does a lot of things. People have been talking about it and so far I like it.

And the sideboard isnt posted not because of super secrect tech, but because it always changes with the meta and we know what to use when. There is usually 4 Relics in it ALWAYS.

Anyway I am looking for some pro tips.

Thanks


// Lands 22
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
14 Mountain
// Creatures 31
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Skingouger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incenerator
2 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Ringleader
// Spells 8
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial

Nessaja
08-04-2009, 06:24 PM
This is what I am working with post rotation.
There's no rotation in legacy?


. And I do like the Gemstone Caverns as a 2 of giving me about a 15% chance of 2 mana on turn 1. And I like waste over port because of my 2 drop situation.
So about this and that's not aimed at you in specific but everyone playing Caverns, that's a 15% chance when you're on the draw, so really it's a 15% chance only 50% of the time. Then the other 15% it's absolutely useless and in any other situation that isn't within those 15% (so I guess 85% of the time..) whenever you draw it, it's the worst card in your deck and by far worse then Rishadan Port. I really must be missing something. Do you guys board the Gemstone Caverns out when being on the play? That seems like an absolute minimum when playing the card. Or, alternatively, do you always let your opponent go first so you can optimize this card.. which seems like a really weak play as well.

Also, this "being good" includes taking card disadvantage, this seems so entirely backwards in an aggro deck to me, I do agree that like every aggro deck, it's best to be on the play. But if there's on thing that is holy next to tempo it's making sure you're not being put at a card disadvantage position. I can even imagine that many times in that 15% there isn't anything you would want to get rid off other then the caverns itself.

I'm really just missing the appeal of the card. A small chance of being good (lower then 50%, heck, even lower then 10%) and a big chance of being a worse Rishadan Port. If it was decided that Port wasn't good enough atleast run Mutavaults instead, I'd say.

GreenOne
08-04-2009, 06:32 PM
Do you guys board the Gemstone Caverns out when being on the play? That seems like an absolute minimum when playing the card. Or, alternatively, do you always let your opponent go first so you can optimize this card.. which seems like a really weak play as well.
I ran gemstone as the 24th land, and yes, I boarded it out on the play post SB (unless playing against heavy mana denial decks).
Obviously this is not possible if you're running 23 or less lands, and it's also obvious that you should run 4 ports before Caverns. I'm with you with everything you said.

EDIT: on another note, I'm still undecided by the last slots of my SB, that are now filled with cards I'm rarely boarding in. Here it is:

Fixed slots:
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy
1 Boartusk Liege (2 chieftains MD)
Still wroking on those:
1 Sharpshooter
1 Tinkerer (1 MD)
2 Pyroblasts

The tinkerer comes in against stax, Jitte, and other nasty artifacts.
Sharpshooter jumps in against other tribal decks, but since the Merfolk matchup is almost a bye, and Elves is not that played, it's just another card for the mirror match, where you are already boarding kinesis, and are already slightly advantaged against the B splashes.
The pyroblasts are currently boarded in against Merfolk, Dreadstill, Bant and storm combo, but are not worth against UGr thresh and other blue decks. It's also rarely a game deciding spell. If I'm boarding in something non-goblin I really want it to be great in that matchups, even if I'm boarding it against fewer decks. Is there some hidden gem/bomb for those couple slots that works great against few decks, like Anarchy?

Tacosnape
08-04-2009, 07:41 PM
I really must be missing something. Do you guys board the Gemstone Caverns out when being on the play? That seems like an absolute minimum when playing the card. Or, alternatively, do you always let your opponent go first so you can optimize this card.. which seems like a really weak play as well.

You are aware that Gemstone Caverns taps for colorless, right? There's absolutely no reason you would have to board it out on the play (Although I -have- done this just to stick more SB cards in on occasion.) You just leave it in and use it for mana. Dur.

And no, you certainly don't ever ever ever elect to go second with Goblins. That would be complete madness.

I think you're comparing Gemstone Caverns to the wrong cards. It doesn't serve Port's role and it certainly isn't comparable to Mutavault. It fills a role that was created when Mogg Fanatic left the deck, which is that the deck got crushed in the tempo department when it didn't go first. Functionally, it plays more like a Chrome Mox than anything, only one that doesn't die to artifact hate, sweepers, can't be stifled, can remove nonred cards, and can provide some use if you don't want to pitch anything. The downside is that Chrome Mox works if you want the acceleration on the play and Gemstone Caverns doesn't. Basically, it's meant to serve the role Chrome Mox tried to and was never all that good at.

Damnosus
08-04-2009, 07:43 PM
@Greenone: I am not sure what your stance is (some people feel that the combo matchup is so bad that there is no reason to side against it), but I would suggest adding some CotV. I just really hate having to sit there and say "Wow, I can't do diddly" when I face combo, and chalice is the best card that goblins can get to side in against it.

I am not a big fan of sharpshooter without fanatics. Yea he is good in the goblins matchup, but with Goblin chieftain seeing play in the maindeck, the one point of damage is often not enough without fanatic...and fanatic stinks.
Tinkerer is also nice, but you are running him in the main as well. I like Anarchy, but how often will it be useful? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only white permanent that shuts goblins down humility? Moat and Ghostly prison can be gotten around by SGC (to a certain extent). Other than that what is there to kill? Plus those cards only seem to show up in white stax, quinn and landstill. It might still be worth it, but I think that could definitely be a flex slot.

Once I finish building the deck (which is currently modeled after yours btw-mostly because I am having a really hard time figuring out what I want in the last few slots) my standard sideboard will probably look like this:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Relic of Progenitus
1x Boartusk Liege
2x Pyroblast
4x Pyrokinesis

Chances are that 2 of the pyrokinesis and 2 blasts will swap at times for either more blasts or anarchies if I can scope out the field before hand.

I hope that at least gives you something to think about :smile:

Nessaja
08-04-2009, 07:58 PM
@GreenOne; I think we're in agreement, I wasn't really commenting on your list. Though I still find it questionable over Mutavault. Reasoning below; unless it's boarded out every time on the play (which can't happen, only 2/3rds of the time you can board it out on the play), the card is strictly inferior in too many occasions. You need to be lucky for it to work and even when you are lucky I seriously doubt it's effectiveness compared to other lands or even Mountains.


You are aware that Gemstone Caverns taps for colorless, right? There's absolutely no reason you would have to board it out on the play (Although I -have- done this just to stick more SB cards in on occasion.) You just leave it in and use it for mana. Dur.
@Taco; So, in that case 50% of the time, it will be a card that is strictly worse then Mutavault and Rishadan Port, assuming that you're on the draw 50% of the time (which should be the case without a rigged dice). Now add to that that only 15% of the time (not my statistic, but I guess it's correct) of that other 50%, so 7.5% also known as, 15 out of 200 games. Now lets say, you can draw this from a mulligan too (which is entirely likely) so lets assume that it's 25 out of 200 games that you will be able to use this card from your starting hand.

Then from those 25 games, I'm very certain there will be hands where you do not want to throw anything away, for instance, you might have mulliganed into it, you might have a great hand and don't want to throw anything in your hand away, there are many hands where I can imagine this to be the case. So lets say it 20 games out of 200 games where you'll be able to use this effectively.

Now take in account that those other 180 games, whenever you would draw this card Mutavault and Rishadan Port are strictly better, do not lose their effectiveness when being on the play and don't clog up in your hand in the rare 1 game where you draw 2 of them (182 games instead of 180!).

In 18 games out of 200 you want to draw this, in 182 games you do not want to draw this over Mutavault or Rishadan Port, seriously, what am I missing. If you do not board this out (hurting your manabase) these are the numbers we're talking about.

And add to that, whenever you do this, you put yourself up for card disadvantage. A wasteland on a Cavern is a 2 for 1 by definition. But even when the land isn't destroyed you're under the assumption of getting a hand with a useless card in it while Goblins is made for consistency and I honestly wouldn't know a hand where I would want to get rid of cards unless you just got a really bad hand in general and should mull in the first place.

How do you justify running a card that is strictly worse compared to similar cards more then 90% of time? How do you justify running a card that isn't even strictly better in the other 10% of the time? I don't mean to attack anyone I just seriously do not understand it.

Malchar
08-04-2009, 08:17 PM
Quick question: What's the purpose of boartusk liege in the sideboard? Is it used to stop pyroclasm/engineered plague?

Nessaja
08-04-2009, 08:23 PM
It's the only way for mono red goblins to deal with double plague.

GreenOne
08-05-2009, 04:39 AM
@Greenone: I am not sure what your stance is (some people feel that the combo matchup is so bad that there is no reason to side against it)
Yeah, I'm one of those. I'm not liking chalices any more than blasts.

I like Anarchy, but how often will it be useful? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only white permanent that shuts goblins down humility? Moat and Ghostly prison can be gotten around by SGC (to a certain extent). Other than that what is there to kill? Plus those cards only seem to show up in white stax, quinn and landstill. It might still be worth it, but I think that could definitely be a flex slot.
I guess plague doesn't shut down Goblins too, but having a solution to it doesn't really hurt. You can work around most of problematic white permanents, but this requires a lot of time to do it, and so the opponent has quite often the time to find that Geddon, Humility, Pulse of the Fields or whatever messes with your plans.

There are a lot of annoying things that Anarchy takes care of, including Elspeth, Ayani Vengeant, Magus of the Tabernacle, Oblivion Ring, Solitary Confinament, Moat, Humility, Runed Halo, Soldier/Angel tokens) and everything in death and taxes. For a 2 of in the SB, completely raping my control opponent when resolves is all I'm asking for :wink:


@GreenOne; I think we're in agreement, I wasn't really commenting on your list. Though I still find it questionable over Mutavault. Reasoning below; unless it's boarded out every time on the play (which can't happen, only 2/3rds of the time you can board it out on the play), the card is strictly inferior in too many occasions. You need to be lucky for it to work and even when you are lucky I seriously doubt it's effectiveness compared to other lands or even Mountains.
I tested mutavault cause it seemed a great idea, and of the times I drew it, I animated it less than 10% matches. Oh well, this probably happens when you're playing a deck with more than 30 creatures. :tongue: However, I'm sure that different cards can be run in that slot, and we got plenty of choice, depending on what you're looking for (obviously if you're already running 4 ports).

Here's some of the cards you could run in monored (you're better off playing more basics if you're splashing) when playing more than 23 lands. That's roughly the order I'd consider them:
Gemstone Caverns: everything is probably said and done.
Mountain: adds R to your mana pool while being basic. Obviously broken.
Mutavault: Cool against other tribal decks and maybe against standstill if you're lucky. I don't like them though.
Dust Bowl: Additional LD, if your meta features a huge number of duals.
Goblin Burrows: Your goblins can now exchange with nacatls, geese, and sometimes Goyfs!
Ghost Quarter: takes care of manlands, and acts like a strip mine against decks with no basics (like UGr Thresh)
PendelHaven: Off color, but Pumps Tokens, Lackeys, Matrons, War Marshal.
Barbarian Ring: some good pain for a little gain. It's not something I'd look for, but I'd add it before Lightning bolt.
Ancient Tomb: REAL pain for a good gain. Play it only in a version with higher curve.
Blasted Landscape: too mana intensive for what it does, but can be useful if you're running 25 lands or so, to not get flooded on occasion.
Mouth of Ronom: 4 damages are not that impressive in this format, but might work in certain metas.
Quicksands: might 2 for 1 with a goyf or kill a weenie. Meh.
Gargoyle Castle: never tested it, but might work against double plague, Pyroclasm and Moat.
Kher Keep: chump goyf all day long.
Zoetic Cavern: just to confuse the shit out of the opponent.
Keldon Necropolis: 6 lands and a critter to shock the opponent it's nothing to sneeze at.
Shivan Gorge: 4 mana to ping your opponent. Do I have to say more?
Hammerheim: For all those pesky Mountain Goats. No, I'm not serious.

christophenuss
08-05-2009, 08:29 AM
Sorry Post by post rotation I meant with M10 rules, I guess that is a local colloquialism. And as for the Caverns only being good on the draw yes that is true. But We are not the fastest deck in the format anymore. T8 are no longer 7 goblins and X. On the draw this is especially true. We need speed and this gives it to us. I have been thinking about mox but there is already a lot of artifact hate in my meta and I agree with Taco that Caverns is good in here.

Tacosnape
08-05-2009, 10:00 AM
Your math doesn't apply to reality.


Now take in account that those other 180 games, whenever you would draw this card Mutavault and Rishadan Port are strictly better

Here's the first flaw in your statement. Rishadan Port is only better if I use them at any point in the game, and their use makes a difference in the outcome of the game. Otherwise there's absolutely no difference in the two cards.


And add to that, whenever you do this, you put yourself up for card disadvantage. A wasteland on a Cavern is a 2 for 1 by definition.

A Force of Will is also a 2 for 1 by definition. It's also a huge tempo boost.

If someone leads with Wasteland against Caverns, you've accomplished your mission: You have completely nullified the advantage they have by going first.

In fact, the end result is virtually no different. For example, in a normal game, where you're on the play and your opponent is on the draw, no mulligans, you start with 7 cards in your hand for your first turn. They'll start with 8 for their first turn.

If your opponent leads with Wasteland on Caverns, this is almost no different than you going first. Now you'll have 6 cards for your first hand and your opponent will have 7. This essentially resets everything to a game where both players mulliganed to six.

Now, you can make the argument that the advantage for the player going first is lessened in a 6 card hand battle versus a 7 card hand battle and probably be right, but you also got to get rid of your least useful card and draw a new random one, which probably makes up for this.


But even when the land isn't destroyed you're under the assumption of getting a hand with a useless card in it while Goblins is made for consistency and I honestly wouldn't know a hand where I would want to get rid of cards unless you just got a really bad hand in general and should mull in the first place.

Really? You're talking about the deck that, card for card, runs the weakest cards in the entire format, and only thrives due to the ridiculous tempo boosts and card advantage the deck is capable of, and you can't find a card to get rid of?

Give me sample hands. Seriously. Give me a ton of them. Tell me my hand and, if I know what I'm playing against, my matchup. I'll find something to pitch in every 7-hand and most 6-hands.


How do you justify running a card that is strictly worse compared to similar cards more then 90% of time? How do you justify running a card that isn't even strictly better in the other 10% of the time? I don't mean to attack anyone I just seriously do not understand it.

Two reasons:

1. Every mathematical statement in this setup is wrong. It isn't strictly worse in most scenarios: It's strictly even. A colorless producer. And on the draw? I'd argue it's almost invariably better than Port will ever be. Port -sucks- on the draw.

2. The power boost you get from Gemstone Caverns when you get to play it is incredible.

Nessaja
08-05-2009, 10:19 AM
Your math doesn't apply to reality.
That's not a convincing argument.


Here's the first flaw in your statement. Rishadan Port is only better if I use them at any point in the game, and their use makes a difference in the outcome of the game. Otherwise there's absolutely no difference in the two cards.
Then use Mutavault instead if you please. Point remains, you're playing a Barry's land with no additional benefits the gross majority of the time.


A Force of Will is also a 2 for 1 by definition. It's also a huge tempo boost.
Don't even try to compare this to Force of Will, it is played in control oriented decks that generate card advantage much more easily. Also, the tempo generated with Force of Will is potentially much greater then an extra land one turn will ever be.


If someone leads with Wasteland against Caverns, you've accomplished your mission: You have completely nullified the advantage they have by going first.

Now, you can make the argument that the advantage for the player going first is lessened in a 6 card hand battle versus a 7 card hand battle and probably be right, but you also got to get rid of your least useful card and draw a new random one, which probably makes up for this.
That's fair, you came to a on the play position with both people taking a mulligan. I'd say this in the Wastelands player favor by far but perhaps (depending on what you threw away with your caverns) it's not too bad. Luckily, this wasn't the main argument I had against it.

What about the situations where you had to mulligan and draw into this, play it anyway and suffer more card disadvantage? What about the low chances of its ability being useful at all?


Two reasons:

1. Every mathematical statement in this setup is wrong. It isn't strictly worse in most scenarios: It's strictly even. A colorless producer. And on the draw? I'd argue it's almost invariably better than Port will ever be. Port -sucks- on the draw.
Then take Mutavault instead if you please. I know for a fact that Port doesn't suck on the draw but for the sake of argument, lets change the statement to: It's strictly worse then Mutavault 90% of the time.

While port -sucks- on the draw (your words), it's still better then Barry's land aka Gemstone Caverns outside your starting hand (80% of the time when on the draw). And Port doesn't suck on the play which is the other 50% of the time. So that would be.. 90% of the time. It's quite simply not true that it does suck on the draw though, not to the point where it's worse then a colorless producing legendary land anyway. At most, it's a situational card but there are plenty of occasions where you can abuse the card when being on the draw.


2. The power boost you get from Gemstone Caverns when you get to play it is incredible.
Going first (even though this isn't true, your creatures still have summoning sickness, your aether vial still doesn't have a counter etc.) at the cost of a card isn't an "incredible power boost", you act as if going first will suddenly make you win the game. Unless you're playing against Zoo or Goblins only this quite simply isn't the case. Many matchups are decided by gaining superior card advantage of your opponent in the control role. Goblins isn't a straight up aggro deck where going first is as significant as you claim.

Creating tempo boosts is only useful when you can abuse it and that's where Ports and Wastelands come in.

christophenuss
08-05-2009, 11:29 AM
In terms of the Math I think we need to clear some things up. Any math, even the math I gave is not representative of reality, it would assume perfect randomness which we are just not going to achieve. I can run the numbers all day and have a land count that statisticlly should garintee 2 lands in my opening hand, but I am guessing that we have all gotten the screw. What the math can do for us is be a basis for making the non automatic decisions. For me a 15% chance of 2 mana on turn 1 on the draw is worth a turn 2 port activation.

Tacosnape
08-05-2009, 01:54 PM
That's fair, you came to a on the play position with both people taking a mulligan. I'd say this in the Wastelands player favor by far but perhaps (depending on what you threw away with your caverns) it's not too bad.

WHAT?! You have to be kidding. A clear board, with both players having 6 cards in hand, and Goblins going first IS IN THE OPPONENT'S FAVOR moreso than it would be if it were 7 and 7 and the opponent going first?

You have lost your mind. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.


Going first at the cost of a card isn't an "incredible power boost", you act as if going first will suddenly make you win the game.

I act that way because it's true. Goblins is a deck that -will- replenish its card advantage. The tempo is a huge deal. It wins games.

Nessaja
08-05-2009, 02:47 PM
WHAT?! You have to be kidding. A clear board, with both players having 6 cards in hand, and Goblins going first IS IN THE OPPONENT'S FAVOR moreso than it would be if it were 7 and 7 and the opponent going first?

You have lost your mind. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I like how you take a single part of my argument and then invalidate everything I say. It doesn't work that way though.

I'd say it's in the opponents favor because when someone wastes something the first turn there's a big chance he had an abundance of lands. When you're throwing in the caverns and discarding something along with it, it was obviously going to be in your favor when doing so, taking that extra advantage away will likely be the right play for an opponent, and thus, his favor or atleast it's in his hands to make the best choice, there's a potential of mana screwing you with it. Starting with a nonbasic land always brings that risk with it. Again though I'm not sure why you're taking minor parts of my argument against this card and then blow it out of proportion to claim its validity. This is not the main point against the card that I have, if you had read my posts you would've known this.


I act that way because it's true. Goblins is a deck that -will- replenish its card advantage. The tempo is a huge deal. It wins games.
Lets say I concede this point (I don't, but for the sake of argument) how about everything else I stated, I'm going to assume you agree with me on everything else if you're only going to comment on the small things. If that's the case you pretty much convinced me not to play the Caverns in place of either Mutavault or Ports.

Lammina
08-05-2009, 03:54 PM
Hi everybody!

SO, I had tested this list, and I need suggestions.

Sensation Bidding

// Lands 19
2 Rishadan Port
2 Woodfoot hills
2 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
5 Mountain

// Creatures 33
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Gempalm Incenerator
2 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Skirk Prospector
1 Sensation Gorger
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells 6
2 Patriarch Bidding
4 Aether Vial

SIDE

1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
4 CoV


I played sometimes with this variation:

+1 Rishadan Port
+4 Warren Werding
+3 Gempalm incinerator

- 1 Sensation Gorger
-1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
-1 Wort
- 4 Prospector

And my opinion of this is version is: with less goblins, the deck loses options and the great (IMO) "kamikazi" strategy: doing agressive blocks and attacks, winning the game or doing a massive bidding, and ........winning the game!

The first decklist counts with a huge list of movements and strategies in Main Deck against many decks.

Please, comments!

Lammina

Manhattan
08-05-2009, 05:55 PM
Ok, after reading this discussion for a while I think I'll join the Gemstone-Caverns madness for a little.
From my point of view the card seems as follows: The only situation where this card is actually to be prefered over basic mountain is when it is in the opening hand, on the draw. The number that seems to be the consensus for running this card seems to be two. So first let me calculate the odds of this event occuring:

Imagine this being your 60 cards deck:
XXXXXXXOOO OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO

X=cards drawn from deck
O=cards remaining in deck

What are the odds of at least one of two specific cards of these 60 falling onto the X's?

If you draw one card the probability of it being a Caverns is 2/60 or 1/30 so drawing 7 gives the chance of 7/30 or 0,2333 or 23,3%

For each mulligan you obviously subtract 1/30, however for the sake of argument I'm going to stick with the best case scenario of not taking a mulligan.
Now let's assume you got lucky and drew one Cavern's in your opening draw. Further let's assume that over the rest of the game you take 10 additional draws. This includes Incinerator but not Matron/Ringleader/Fetches. I have to acknowledge that casting those increases the odds of drawing into Caverns since the library then contains less cards, however it would demand additional assumptions on the average number of Matrons/Ringleaders/fetches played per game aswell as requiring some hightech math. Matron/fetch affects the odds differently depending on the turn it's being used on. Ringleader theoretically doesn't affect the odds at all until you shuffle your deck again that would then also entail making an estimation on the average number of Goblins drawn from Ringleader which is again influenced by Matron/fetches, average number of Ringleader-effects+deckrandomizations cast before... it just goes on and on.
10 draws as an average Goblin Game is already a daring assumption so I'm going to let the rest onto your calculations/imagination.

The chances of drawing into the second Caverns with these 10 draws is:
10/53 or 0,1887 or 18,9%

Then there's the chance of already drawing the second Caverns in the opening Hand. The probability of drawing both Caverns is (7/60)x(6/59)=1,2%

Let's review:
Chance of having one or more Caverns in the opener = 23,3%
Chance of having both Caverns in the opener = 1,2% (this odd is a part of the odd above. It's not added onto that number.)
Chance drawing the second Caverns within 10 draws if one is in the opener = 18,9% (actually a little higher due to deck-thinning by Matron/Ringleader/fetches)

I invite anybody to check my math and point out errors. It's been a while since I've done this so I'm not perfectly comfortable with it.


Conclusion:
Now for my personal interpretation of the cards value. While the card does certainly have some utility in the deck, the question has to be: is this utility large enough to justify playing this card over other cards? Is this the best card for the slot?
The numbers above suggest to me that this card is already having trouble defending itself against basic Island (due to legendary and nonbasic).
Remember that even if you do draw it in your opener, your opener can still look like: Caverns, Badlands, Vial, Warchief, Ringleader, Weirdings, Matron. Suppose you don't draw another land within the next two drawsteps then you will not have gained any speed, 2for1'ed yourself and blanked a card in your deck to boot. What I'm trying to say is that the odds I calculated above also don't take into account the fact that sometimes you won't be able to take any advantage from Caverns even when you do draw it into an onthedraw-opener.

Tacosnape
08-05-2009, 06:16 PM
Remember that even if you do draw it in your opener, your opener can still look like: Caverns, Badlands, Vial, Warchief, Ringleader, Weirdings, Matron. Suppose you don't draw another land within the next two drawsteps then you will not have gained any speed, 2for1'ed yourself and blanked a card in your deck to boot.

Okay. Your point is decent. But here's where your logic is flawed.

You're assuming that not only will you not draw another land, but that you will not draw another card that will benefit from having the extra speed. Given my current list, I can draw one of the following cards from my deck and benefit from the Gemstone Caverns:

Land (20 remaining)
Goblin Lackey (4 remaining, allows turn one Vial/Lackey)
Aether Vial (3 remaining, allows turn one Vial/Vial)
Warren Weirding (3 remaining, allows a turn one Weirding)
Goblin Piledriver (4 remaining, allows a turn one Piledriver)
Mogg War Marshal (4 remaining, allows a turn one War Marshal)

So in 38/53 draws, which is just shy of 72% of the time, I can gain some benefit off of the Gemstone Caverns in that instance. And that's for each draw. And that's excluding Gempalm Incinerator, because the only situation I can imagine wanting to Cycle Gempalm on turn one here instead of dropping the Vial is if my opponent led with a Lackey or a Welder.

Now, I acknowledge that in many cases with that opening hand, you're going to want to drop the Aether Vial on turn one. In which case you've at least made the thing invulnerable to Daze. In this case, 27 of the 53 draws still benefit you greatly on turn one, which is still over 50%.

Additionally, this isn't factoring in that the average CMC of my sideboard cards is 1 (Therapy, Relic, etc.), which makes Caverns even more likely to benefit from the acceleration.

Melwis
08-05-2009, 06:25 PM
Instead of running either Port or Caverns i'm running my mono-red list with 18 mountains + 4 Wasteland. The reason for running so many red sources:

I'm playing 6 cards that require RR (4 Warchief + 2 Chieftain) and I want to consistently have the mana for one when I play my third land.

I'm testing Frenzied Goblin as a 2-of to give me a higher chance of playing something on the first turn. I know it's just 1/1 when I play it at the start but even then it's solid because it makes Incinerators and/or Piledrivers happy later on. Also, the ability Frenzied Goblin has can just be silly at times giving your Piledriver(s)/Lackey(s) clear way to kind of just win the game asap.

Manhattan
08-05-2009, 06:38 PM
Tacosnape, I stand corrected. I had overlooked that possibility. However the argument, while diminished in probability of occuring, still stands in principle. Sometimes you do draw Caverns at the right time and still can't do something broken with it.

Nessaja
08-05-2009, 06:47 PM
We're already talking about a situation that is only relevant 1 out of 8 games you'll have the chance for something to "truly shine and win you the game" (something I seriously doubt but again, lets say it does, for science sake) whereas 7 out 8 games it'll be worse then a mountain, a rishadan port or a mutavault.

Your reply to this was that the above lands aren't any good either. Is the real argument here that you're under the impression that Port and Mutavault are bad cards (bad as in, as bad as gemstone caverns)? Both on the play and on the draw (as the cards are in the deck both on the play and on the draw) because if that's your whole argument here then you're just plain wrong, Port has won goblin players all over the world many games and Mutavault is a fine card to use when you're in a meta that's full with aggro and tribal (control non existent). Are you saying that they can't be used every game? Because that's fine, lets say for port that it's pretty much always a good card on the play (3/8) and 50% of the time it's good on the draw (2/8) that's grossly underestimating its efficiency. That's still scoring better then Barry's Cavern.

Koby
08-05-2009, 07:03 PM
With Gemstone Caverns I'm less concerned starting with it in my opening hand on the draw as I am topdecking it one turn 1. Man, that's always a killer non-topdeck. How often does that happen? 2/53 ~ 4%.

In the hand described, I would pitch the Matron to Gemstone Mine and play the Vial unless I draw a better 2-drop.

Mantis
08-05-2009, 07:32 PM
Rishadan Port is probably just as good in that sample hand as Caverns anyway. It's even better when you don't draw your third land in the next two draws or if you would be on the play with that hand.

tivadar
08-05-2009, 08:06 PM
I think your calculation is flawed. The probability of drawing at least one caverns in an opening hand of 7 cards is:

1 - ((56 choose 7) / (60 choose 7)) = 0.399499626

So it's near 40%. Probability is such a fun thing... people have done similar things in the past though, don't worry.

Manhattan
08-05-2009, 08:43 PM
I think your calculation is flawed. The probability of drawing at least one caverns in an opening hand of 7 cards is:

1 - ((56 choose 7) / (60 choose 7)) = 0.399499626

So it's near 40%. Probability is such a fun thing... people have done similar things in the past though, don't worry.

I have reviewed my math independently and corrected most of it. However your numbers most certainly are incorrect. Gut reaction alone tells me that a two-off is not going to sit in my opener 40% of the time.

I'd also like to add two more numbers I left out before.
Probability of drawing both Caverns on the play with 9 additional draws:
(16/60)x(15/59)=6,8%
Probability of drawing both Caverns in the consecutive 10 draws of an onthedraw-game: (10/53)x(9/52)=3,3%

Nessaja
08-05-2009, 08:46 PM
@tivadar I think you just made the mistake of assuming 4 Gemstones Caverns while there's only 2 in the deck. Actually, I'm 100% positive you did.

And because I decided to not be lazy, the correct number is 0,221468927, so 22%.

edit, @ above, excel is giving me a different number, and so is the MWS calculator. I'm using the hypergeometric distribution. I guess the flaw in your calculations is that as soon as you draw a card and it isn't the Caverns, it means that the chance increases from 2/60 to 2/59, etc. Check out this (http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic10.php) for an explanation.

Considering you're on the draw 50% of the time it means it can be used in 11% of your games which ~equates to 1 out of 10 games instead of 1 out of 8 games.

tivadar
08-05-2009, 08:55 PM
Sorry, yeah, I was assuming 4 and didn't take the time to read. But yeah, you're right, 1 - ((58 choose 7) / (60 choose 7)) = 0.221468927. Not so bad really. Note that this is the probability of not having zero caverns, so it accounts for both 1 and 2. Note that this is somewhat different than 7/30ths, but close to it still.

Manhattan
08-05-2009, 09:11 PM
Sorry, yeah, I was assuming 4 and didn't take the time to read. But yeah, you're right, 1 - ((58 choose 7) / (60 choose 7)) = 0.221468927. Not so bad really. Note that this is the probability of not having zero caverns, so it accounts for both 1 and 2. Note that this is somewhat different than 7/30ths, but close to it still.

Actually that is the exact number that I come up with when I calculate the probability of drawing at least one Caverns and then subtract the probability of drawing both:
7/30-(1/60)x(1/59)=0,22146892655367
That would suggest that you calculated the number of getting exactly one Caverns.

Nessaja
08-05-2009, 09:21 PM
Actually that is the exact number that I come up with when I calculate the probability of drawing at least one Caverns and then subtract the probability of drawing both:
7/30-(1/60)x(1/59)=0,22146892655367
That would suggest that you calculated the number of getting exactly one Caverns.
Just logically you can see that 7/30 is not correct. Sure, the chance of drawing one with the first card is 1/30 (2/60) but when that card is drawn and it wasn't a caverns your card pool decreases, so the next chance isn't 1/30 but instead 2/59, and the next chance to draw one if you didn't 2/58 which is again bigger then 1/30. But it doesn't work like this.. and it's hard to explain with my english knowledge how it does work but if you want to know just check out the link I gave you.

I added both chances, the chance of drawing one is 20.96% and the chance to draw 2 is 1.19%. I have no idea how you got the same number but that's really odd.

Manhattan
08-05-2009, 09:46 PM
Just logically you can see that 7/30 is not correct. Sure, the chance of drawing one with the first card is 1/30 (2/60) but when that card is drawn and it wasn't a caverns your card pool decreases, so the next chance isn't 1/30 but instead 2/59, and the next chance to draw one if you didn't 2/58 which is again smaller then 1/30.

I added both chances, the chance of drawing one is 20.96% and the chance to draw 2 is 1.19%. I have no idea how you got the same number but that's really odd.

That's the same approach I used at first. The way I look at it now is this:
I have 60 cards infront of me. Each has a 1/30 of being a Caverns. I take 7 random cards from these 60. I now have 7 times a 1/30 chance of having a Caverns.

2/60 This is the probability of a card being a Caverns
2/59 This is the probability of a card being a Caverns if you already identified one card as not being a Caverns.

As you see you are using different amounts of knowledge for judging the cards probabilities of being Caverns. Adding those afterwards is like adding fractions with different denominators.

The reason I initially went for this was because I had seen this approach used for calculating the probability of a sequenze appearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3nvH6gfrTc
Starts at 1:00. However these are obviously two different problems.

Nessaja
08-05-2009, 10:18 PM
Spreadsheet: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TZ59Y6QL

@Manhattan, your error is that you don't draw cards in a vacuum, you draw hands of 7 cards, as such, you need to calculate the probability of drawing a certain hand. This is called the hypergeometric distribution, it's actually not that difficult, you first look at the chance to draw the card once, this can be the first draw 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th draw. Then you multiply that by the chance of not drawing the second copy and then add all the probabilities together. So you get 7 different hands:

x - - - - - -
- x - - - - -
- - x - - - -
- - - x - - -
- - - - x - -
- - - - - x -
- - - - - - x

The x's is getting the card on that draw and the minus is not getting the card (look at the above vertically, or horizontally doesn't really matter where each row/column is an instance), needless to say, there's no difference in chance of drawing it the 1st or the 7th draw, so you actually really only need to do this once and multiply it by 7. Then you can do a similar thing for getting 2 copies and multiply it by 7 and then adding the two chances (if you look at my excel sheet, you'll see what I mean).

Either way, I think we can establish that the times this is effectively is 0.5 * 22.1% so 11% of the time. So lets use 1 out of 10 games as a value for argument (I know it's 1 out of 9, but 1 out of 10 is easier to use).

tivadar
08-05-2009, 10:32 PM
So the chances of drawing 2 is:
(58 choose 5) / (60 choose 7) = 0.0118644068
So yes, about 1.19%

The chances of not drawing 0 (which is drawing either 1 or 2) is still what I posted above:
1 - ((58 choose 7) / (60 choose 7)) = 1 - ((58 choose 7) / (60 choose 7)) = 0.221468927

This makes the probability of drawing exactly 1:
B - A = 0.20960452

Just as a note, probabilities are a slippery thing. I was a math major through college and took a full semester of statistics that involved problems like this and computing them still throws me off sometimes. The above numbers are correct though, I'm fairly certain. I've actually gone through this debate in other decks (primarily involving the chance of drawing Force of Will with another blue card...).

The tricky part comes in considering that when you compute the probability of the second card being a caverns, you have to consider the probability it's a caverns *and* the first card was not a caverns. Basically, it's easier to generate the all or nothing and compute the intermediates from there.

@Nessaja: You assume you're on draw 50% of the time. Good point!

Nessaja
08-05-2009, 10:50 PM
@Nessaja: I don't know where you're getting the 11% and I'm not sure what a hypergeometric series is used for, but I can pretty much guarantee you this number is wrong.
You're on the draw 50% of the time, we're talking about Gemstone Caverns, remember?

kicks_422
08-05-2009, 11:28 PM
Wow. I never imagined that this sort of discussion would happen in the Goblins thread.

...Actually, no matter what the right percentage is, it's still going to be a matter of personal preference. Is 22% too low, too high, or just right? So yeah, it doesn't matter. If the dude wants to run the card, then let him.

Nessaja
08-05-2009, 11:54 PM
It's 11%, not 22%.

And I really don't care what anyone in specific is playing, but this topic is here to discuss and develop optimal lists of the archetype of goblins. As such, I don't really see the problem with bringing probabilities and chances (aka, facts) on the table. You can talk about experiences all you like but in the end experiences are a very one sided perspective. Statistics are unbiased and give a factual representation (model) of the truth.

And if Taco doesn't want to discuss it any further that's fine, I'll just be left not understanding why on earth you would run a card that gives a (small) gain 11% of the time and is strictly worse 89% of the time.

Endril
08-06-2009, 02:57 AM
I'd like to put my deck up for critique. I'm mostly concerned about my sideboard and only having 8 1-drops that are permanents. Here is the list:

x4 Aether Vial
x4 Swords to Plowshares
x4 Goblin Lacky
x4 Goblin Piledriver
x4 Goblin Warchief
x4 Goblin Matron
x4 Goblin Ringleader
x4 Gempalm Incinerator
x1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
x1 Siege-gang Commander
x1 Lightning Crafter
x1 Goblin Sharpshooter
x1 Goblin King
x4 Rishadan Port
x4 Wasteland
x4 Wooded Foothills
x3 Bloodstained Mire
x4 Mountain
x4 Plateau

-SB:
x4 Disenchant
x4 Tormod's Crypt (looking for Relic of Progenitus)
x4 Blood Moon
x2 Pyrokinesis
x1 Vexing Shusher

And to see which decks I'm having the most trouble with, I created a gauntlet of popular decks and played against myself in a few matches for each deck. These are my win percentages:

Zoo 86%
Goblins (R/B) 86%
Fish 75%
Landstill 63%
Aggro Loam 57%
A.N. Tendrils 57%
Threshold 43%
Ichorid 38%

GreenOne
08-06-2009, 03:27 AM
Zoo 86%
Goblins (R/B) 86%
Fish 75%
Landstill 63%
Aggro Loam 57%
A.N. Tendrils 57%
Threshold 43%
Ichorid 38%
These obviously are flawed. 57% of win percentage against AdN is something you can't achieve with your MD and SB. I don't know about the other matchups, but I'm willing to test you that you're not going over 30% win against Tendrils.

Endril
08-06-2009, 04:17 AM
Well I was actually looking more for advice than analyzing my testing. Keep in mind they were only a few matches and I played the other decks myself. Although, I'm actually familiar with AN Tendrils because of the work I've done with it in type 1. Really the draws weren't that good in the last couple matches, and more testing would certainly put me under 50%. If it's such a problem for me, do you think I should run Canonist in the board? If so, what would you pull out? The blood moon helps slow down decks like landstill and threshold, while the crypt is used against ichorid, which seems to be one of my worst matchups atm.

georgjorge
08-06-2009, 08:09 AM
And if Taco doesn't want to discuss it any further that's fine, I'll just be left not understanding why on earth you would run a card that gives a (small) gain 11% of the time and is strictly worse 89% of the time.

1. It depends on your build - if you have a very balanced curve, with multiple cards in the 2cc-slot, then Port doesn't shine that much since you'll have stuff to cast instead of using it for the first turns (and it's pretty weak after the first turns). If your 2cc-slot is rather empty, then Port becomes better.

2. It can be argued that Goblins has more problems winning games on the draw than on the play, and thus Caverns helps in the situations where you need help the most.

3. Like Taco said, there are a number of situations where a Caverns (not in your opening hand) is exactly as good as a Port, not worse, because you don't want to use Port anywawy. These include being on the draw (using two mana to deny one when you're behind in tempo won't often be a good move), or after turn five when your opponent has more than enough mana (and Goblins has a higher curve than many other decks, so chances are you need your mana more than they do)....so it's not as easy as 11% better 89% worse, but maybe something like 11% better 40% even 49% worse, or whatever (these numbers are obviously made up).

ScatmanX
08-06-2009, 08:29 AM
I´m getting so sick of those numbers.

I guess that players that tested Caverns, and twitched the deck to make it better, liked it. Those who didn´t, do not liked it.

I´m sticking with 2, since they have really helped me, even in some Tournaments, and I never run in to a serious drawback.

Don´t really care about the percentages.

Nessaja
08-06-2009, 08:57 AM
1. It depends on your build - if you have a very balanced curve, with multiple cards in the 2cc-slot, then Port doesn't shine that much since you'll have stuff to cast instead of using it for the first turns (and it's pretty weak after the first turns). If your 2cc-slot is rather empty, then Port becomes better.
This is true, but now you're talking about Ports efficiency which is a topic an sich. Personally, Port becomes effective as soon as I can cheat the curve so that's either with Lackey or Vial or Warchief. With any of the three you can disrupt your opponent and using it like that it's also useful midgame. I very much contend the statement that Rishadan Port is only useful early game.


2. It can be argued that Goblins has more problems winning games on the draw than on the play, and thus Caverns helps in the situations where you need help the most.
And that's a fair argument.


These include being on the draw (using two mana to deny one when you're behind in tempo won't often be a good move), or after turn five when your opponent has more than enough mana (and Goblins has a higher curve than many other decks, so chances are you need your mana more than they do)
There's more to using port then just using it turn 2 on the play. But your main point (that it isn't strictly better 89% of the time, but likely less) stands. Again, you're focused on Port here, you can take Mountains or Mutavault too, I would think from both that they're more useful the majority of the time compared to Caverns.

It doesn't seem like you think that Caverns is so good, instead I'm getting the impression that you feel like Port is bad. I'd rather search elsewhere then Caverns in that scenario.

christophenuss
08-06-2009, 09:57 AM
I reran my numbers and I origionally said 15% but it 12%. And like I said before when we look at the numbers we should not look at them as what will happen, we should use them in a cost benifit analisis. Is running 2 Caverns worth it if it will only server its purpose 12% of the time?

The cost for me is what the 2 Ports they are replacing could do for me. Before I made the change away from fanatic to war marshal and stingouger Rishidan port was a 2 drop replacement essentially. What you need to ask yourself is whether or not you can out race other decks and does a 12% chance of being able to outrace them ON THE DRAW justify its inclusion over Port. For me it does.

I have a question for those running Warren's Weirding. Does it hurt you much against goyf? I run Lightning Bolt right now because most people play instants before I would bolt so it is normally not a problem. I guess im just asking if tribal has hurt you at all.

Melwis
08-06-2009, 02:43 PM
Can someone please try adding 2 Frenzied Goblin to their list and change the mana base to include 18 red sources and tell me what you think. I'm finding it to be very useful and sometimes gamebreaking.

If you need help with what to cut I would suggest Stingscourger because the bounce isn't as needed when you can make opposing creatures unable to block instead.

PS: I would be glad if nobody says they try it and then response "it sucks". And those who don't try it should not even bother replying at all! ;)

Koby
08-06-2009, 03:30 PM
I like the Stingscourger effect, but hate the upkeep cost. I want to still keep the creature in play to attack the next turn too. Otherwise Gempalm Incinerator does the same thing and permanently answers the threat.

Eldariel
08-06-2009, 03:43 PM
I like the Stingscourger effect, but hate the upkeep cost. I want to still keep the creature in play to attack the next turn too. Otherwise Gempalm Incinerator does the same thing and permanently answers the threat.

With Tombstalker, Dreadnought and company in the format, I simply can't see the deck functioning properly without Stingscourger. You can't race Dreadnought efficiently and coupled with removal, even just Tombstalker can often be too fast as you need time to build up your business.

In either case, Stingscourger solves the problem creature, while also acting as a removal for anything (on turn 2, no less; Frenzy needs longer) and getting rid of Goyfs and Terravores and the like. Overall, I can see Frenzied Goblin being worth playing, but NOT in stead of Stingscourger. The ability to get rid of anything combined with the ability to make a dude later on, and to swing with an extra Gob with Warchief/Chieftain in play while bouncing something is just awesome.


Really, with the creatures we've got in the format right now, Goblins need a defensive effect that functions early on too.

christophenuss
08-06-2009, 03:57 PM
I agree with Eldariel. Goblins is evolving from a 1 trick poney into a deck that needs to toolbox to out do ther decks.

@Melwis
I used to run Frenzied Goblin when I ran Goblin Vandal. Its an option in mono red. To push thru damage though there are better effects, maybe not in Mono Red though. I stopped running it when I stopped running vandal. Cover of darkness for example. Also maybe we will get a sweet goblin with Intimidate-Red. One can only hope

Manhattan
08-06-2009, 05:35 PM
Spreadsheet: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TZ59Y6QL

@Manhattan, your error is that you don't draw cards in a vacuum, you draw hands of 7 cards, as such, you need to calculate the probability of drawing a certain hand. This is called the hypergeometric distribution, it's actually not that difficult, you first look at the chance to draw the card once, this can be the first draw 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th draw. Then you multiply that by the chance of not drawing the second copy and then add all the probabilities together.

Eh? Let's take this step by step. Assume 1 out of 60 cards in my deck is whiteboardered. I take one draw and flip it over. The chance of getting the whiteboardered card is 1/60 or 1:59 or 0,0166 or 1,7%, right? What if I draw two cards instead of one? I've doubled my chances. By extending my logic I can conclude that 7 draws is going to reveal the whiteboardered card 7 times more likely and drawing 60 cards is going to draw the card with 60 times the chance i.e. 60/60 or 60:0 or 1 or 100%, right?
Similarily if I double the number of whiteboardered cards in my deck from 1 to 2 I double the chances of drawing it with one draw.

Or maybe I am just not understanding what you want to figure out with your calculations.

GreenOne
08-06-2009, 07:14 PM
let's say you have one white borded card, and want to know what's the probability of having it in your starting 7.
You draw your first card, that has a probability of 1/60 of being white borded, and put it into your hand. Then you draw your second card. You cannot obviously draw that is already in your hand, so your deck now contains 59 cards, and the chance of drawing the WB card now is 1/59. Similarly, for the third card it will be 1/58, cause you already have 2 non-WB cards in your hand.
That's why the probability of drawing at least one card of a 2of in your opening 7 is: 2/59+2/58+2/57+2/56+2/55+2/54+2/53

Nessaja
08-06-2009, 07:25 PM
let's say you have one white borded card, and want to know what's the probability of having it in your starting 7.
You draw your first card, that has a probability of 1/60 of being white borded, and put it into your hand. Then you draw your second card. You cannot obviously draw that is already in your hand, so your deck now contains 59 cards, and the chance of drawing the WB card now is 1/59.
Actually, for a 1 card example 1/60th does apply. because 59/60*1/59*58/58*57/57*56/56*55/55*54/54=1/60 and 59/60*58/59*1/57*56/56*55/55*54/54=1/60 Do this for all 7 combinations and you'll see you get a chance of 7/60.

But that's not the rule and you can't apply this to other cases. The reason why it doesn't work this way is because with 2 cards there's an entirely different distribution.


Similarly, for the third card it will be 1/58, cause you already have 2 non-WB cards in your hand.
That's why the probability of drawing at least one card of a 2of in your opening 7 is: 2/59+2/58+2/57+2/56+2/55+2/54+2/53
Right, but it's way more complicated then this and I think we're going a bit too far offtopic. If people want to know they can PM me.

Koby
08-06-2009, 07:48 PM
Using that logic implies you care about where you drew that WB card. In reality you don't - for it could be the 7th card you drew in the opening 7. Hence, you want combinatoric functions rather than just simple counting rules.

All that matters for me, about 22% to draw at least 1 of 2 Caverns in an opening 7. Seems good enough for me.

Manhattan
08-06-2009, 07:51 PM
The mistake you two are making is you are assuming that the first card drawn isn't whitebordered and go on to calculate the probability of the second card being a whitebordered card with this information you do not have. The probability of your 7th card being whitebordered is the same as for the first.

Nessaja
08-06-2009, 07:52 PM
Using that logic implies you care about where you drew that WB card. In reality you don't - for it could be the 7th card you drew in the opening 7. Hence, you want combinatoric functions rather than just simple counting rules.
No, you don't care where you draw it, but that you draw it at as a first or second card is a fundamental difference in terms of chance with two cards. Because you don't care where you draw it, you add the chances of getting a hand where you draw it on the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th and 7th draw. There are 7 possible ways of having 1 Gemstones Caverns in your hand so all you do is adding all possibilities. Then you add all possibilities of having 2 Caverns in your hand and you get the final percentage.

The number you should work with is 11% though, because you need to be on the draw too. Can we move everything else about this subject (statistics) to PM?

@Manhattan I PM'd you with the full explanation already. I'm not making any mistakes in this. You can question my knowledge about Goblins but this statistics thing I got right.

Ectoplasm
08-06-2009, 08:10 PM
Just want to let you guys know that the comparison to rishadan port is flawed, as you might have a vial ticking away ensuring you don't lose tempo, lackeys hitting your opponent, warchiefs making your dudes cheaper etc.

Port is a tempo-tool, like caverns is as well.

Shanghi Knights
08-06-2009, 09:50 PM
turn zero caverns. turn 1 wasteland over island. net loss 2 cards goblin player.

GreenOne
08-07-2009, 03:45 AM
turn zero caverns. turn 1 wasteland over island. net loss 2 cards goblin player.
It's a 2 for 1 for the opponent when you're on the draw. So your opponent is down to 6 cards, and after you draw for your turn you have 6 cards too. You're also making a land drop in your turn while your opponent has an empty board.

It's the exact same condition that happens when both players mulligan to 6 and YOU are on the play. Seems advantageous in this case.

Endril
08-07-2009, 03:53 AM
The only reason I would ever play caverns is if it allows me to make both a solid play and disrupt their mana on turn 1. For example, I drop it on turn 0 and remove a land from the game, then after they lay a land and say go I wasteland their land and drop a vial. But even without looking at the math, I'm certain there's more situations where I'd rather just not have it, not to mention the problem of coming up with room for it in a deck that runs 4 ports and 4 wastelands.

Two things I was wondering about with the deck I posted earlier were if I could find room for mogg fanatic in the main and what I should do with my sideboard.

Mogg fanatic - everyone has been knocking him since the rules change, but I've slowly been talking myself back into playing him. The guy can still chump block and hit them or another creature for 1. And targeted damage for 1 is just too good to pass on. But it's hard to find room for him now that I've maindecked goblin king (either to counteract plague or as a win con vs decks that splash red) and the lightning crafter (for the combo), it's hard to find room for them. I suppose I could drop a plow and an incinerator, but having so much removal is why I have easier games against aggro. And I'm not sure if a guy that targets for 1 can make up for those cards.

Sideboard - my situation is a little different than most, because I splash white rather than green or black. But I'm assuming the decks I have problems with are similar to that of other goblin decks... tendrils, loam, ichorid, and sometimes threshold. Then there's all these W/B or G/U/W or B decks with a ton of removal and life gain that keep showing up on workstation. Is anyone else noticing this and how do you fight it?

I currently keep a vexing shusher in my deck to look for and run a few disenchants with a combination of crypts and relics. I also run a couple pyrokinesis, because even though I can beat some aggro decks without them they've actually been helping against other decks with fatties. That just leaves me a few slots, which I can't decide between blood moon and canonist. I think Canonist could give me a fighting chance against elves and storm decks. I'm wondering how good blood moon is. So far I've tried it against loam, landstill, and threshold. Some times it hits and it's just not enough.

socialite
08-07-2009, 07:20 AM
Fuck people.

Port is BAD in the current Metagame. What loss do you have in running Caverns which is NUTS.

FACEPALM.

tivadar
08-07-2009, 08:47 AM
So the main argument I agree with against caverns is the one posted a while back:

Caverns doesn't let you play lackey turn 0
Caverns doesn't let you play vial turn 0

This means you're still behind the curve in terms of lackey swinging and vial getting counters. Against a lot of decks, especially combo, this is the biggest deal. Granted, I'm not arguing caverns is bad, but it's *not* like going first, unless they're dumb enough to wasteland you :-P. Control decks will realize you went down a card and just try to counter your threats most of the time.

Nessaja
08-07-2009, 09:03 AM
Yeah so practically, when it works you get the land drops of going first, but not the counters on the Vial and your lackey will still have summoning sickness. You do make these cards less sensitive to Daze on the plus side, playing a 2 drop turn 1 seems like walking in a spell snare to me though whereas normally they'll lose tempo not casting anything turn 2 to leave mana open for spell snare. Having the caverns is far less threatening then actually going first because you still can't use your 1 drops (or follow up with a 2 drop already). You didn't get the Tempo that is involved with going first, only when you're lacking a drop it would be comparable.

Anyway, there's upsides and downsides having a turn 1 extra land. Against anything but control oriented decks that win against you not on speed, but on card advantage. Against Aggro, the extra land will probably help, but it might very well not do so either. In that 11% I'm not entirely sure if you actually significantly increase your chances of winning the game to be honest.

Mantis
08-07-2009, 09:05 AM
Fuck people.

Port is BAD in the current Metagame. What loss do you have in running Caverns which is NUTS.

FACEPALM.
What are you trying to achieve with this post? Are you trying to convince us to run Caverns instead of Port with obnoxious behaviour instead of actual arguments? To me that is a sign of weakness rather than strength thus actually solidifying my belief that Port is better than Caverns.

Don't get me wrong, I am open to debate and good arguments are being made in this thread that make me want to test out Caverns more, but this is definately not one of them. The only problem I have with Caverns is the only way to run them seems to be at the expense of Rishadan Port. Cutting Port is a very rough decision as it cuts off a great strategical path; namely the manadenial one. With 8 'landdestruction cards' this path is a great alternative route to victory under the right circumstances. I have actually beaten a wide variety of decks using this route, from Landstill to Merfolk to Tempo Thresh. The importance of Port in stopping decks you have a horrendous matchup against must not be underestimated. Decks such as combo and Enchantress have great means of stopping you, attacking their mana is actually one of the best ways to deal with them.

I must admit that Caverns is great under the right circumstances but there are a lot of requirments to be met before it can work wonders. Your opening 7 needs to contain the right mixture of spells and land to actually take advantage of it as you need to throw a spell away and still have the aggressive hand to take advantage of having 2 mana on your first turn.

If I were to run Caverns (which I'm still not sure about), I would run no more than 1 as I don't think it's powerful enough to justify the risk of getting screwed over with 2 Caverns in your hand.

To conclude my rant I'd like to quote Ectoplasm as he made a very important point and an essential reason for me to play Port:

Just want to let you guys know that the comparison to rishadan port is flawed, as you might have a vial ticking away ensuring you don't lose tempo, lackeys hitting your opponent, warchiefs making your dudes cheaper etc.

socialite
08-07-2009, 09:48 AM
Large Flame

Expressing my frustration and confusion as to why people play Port in a metagame dominated by opposing Wastelands. Null and void I guess since Caverns is non basic too but odds are it will provide more use before getting wasted than Port.

I do not understand why people pay mana to use Port instead of paying mana to do what Goblins does best, smash face.

...

Thanks Taco so far I have loved this card.

Mantis
08-07-2009, 10:36 AM
Taco didn't suggest Caverns in the first place, but thats irrelevant.

It's was never my intention to come off as inflammatory. Rather, I wanted to put you into place for use of violent words, that wasn't appropiate. Anyway I realize that's not my job and I should have left it to the mods.

To answer your question about not understanding the use of Port: I think you play Goblins in a different way than I do. I play Goblins defensively, hence Port fits this plan perfectly. To quote Manuel Bucher: Play around everything. During a game of Magic if I am in the situation where I can play around everything I will try my darnest to do so. You apparently play the deck in a different fashion, I guess you try to kill the opponent before he builds up. This is the reason I have been the one advocating the use of Mogg War Marshal so loudly ever since GreenOne suggested it and this is also the reason I love Rishadan Port. My gameplan varies according to what deck I face; if I face a deck that maximizes the value of each card they play (ie Threshold) and focusses on card selection and quality rather than card advantage I try to outlast them by building up my resources and then bury them under card advantage. Port helps me reach this point. Instead, if you assume the aggressive role you play right into their gameplan and their card selection and superior creatures will get the better of you. That is not to say assuming the control role is the best gameplan all the time but you will have to navigate between deciding which role is best; Port at least gives me the opportunity to do so and allows me to maximize the importance of my experience and playskill with this deck.

socialite
08-07-2009, 10:37 AM
Taco didn't suggest Caverns in the first place, but thats irrelevant.

It's was never my intention to come off as inflammatory. Rather, I wanted to put you into place for use of violent words, that wasn't appropiate. Anyway I realize that's not my job and I should have left it to the mods.

To answer your question about not understanding the use of Port: I think you play Goblins in a different way than I do. I play Goblins defensively, hence Port fits this plan perfectly. To quote Manuel Bucher: Play around everything. You apparently play the deck in a different fashion, I guess you try to kill the opponent before he builds up. This is the reason I have been the one advocating the use of Mogg War Marshal so loudly ever since GreenOne suggested it and this is also the reason I love Rishadan Port. My gameplan varies according to what deck I face; if I face a deck that maximizes the value of each card they play (ie Threshold) and focusses on card selection and quality rather than card advantage I try to outlast them by building up my resources and then bury them under card advantage. Port helps me reach this point. Instead, if you assume the aggressive role you play right into their gameplan and their card selection and superior creatures will get the better of you. That is not to say assuming the control role is the best gameplan all the time but you will have to navigate between deciding which role is best; Port at least gives me the opportunity to do so and allows me to maximize the importance of my experience and playskill with this deck.

Point taken.

Tacosnape
08-07-2009, 11:36 AM
Taco didn't suggest Caverns in the first place

Uh. Yes I did. Page 127.


I'm not so sure we need more 1-drops on the play, but we need to be doing something before turn two on the draw to avoid getting smashed in a fast format.

I'm trying Gemstone Caverns out as a 2-of, retardedly enough. I'm aware that I'm reaching, but hey.


Nice idea. It might work. Seriously.

Eldariel
08-07-2009, 01:37 PM
Given that Countertop and Landstill are both DTB right now, I can't see myself cutting Ports ever. Further, without Ports, Wastes alone are insufficient disruption to consistently cut people off colors or keep them off E. Plague/Moat/Whatever-mana. Ports are also very important to beating tons of randomness (e.g. by FAR our best chance vs. Enchantress is to catch their enchanted lands with Wastes & Ports while Vial/Lackey gets paid - we can also lock out various Rock-decks by annihilating their manabase and Aggro Loam/43 Lands are both best stymied to one land, preferably without RR(R) for Aggro Loam, and with Maze of Iths tapped for Lands).

And of course, if we do have a hand without a 2-drop (say, Vial, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Mountain, Port, Waste), Port is a great way to cash in on the turn 2 mana anyways while proceeding to the lategame where you rule. Hell, I'd cut Wastes before Ports 'cause Ports are something I can use for mana when it's advantageous to me, and for mana disruption when it is likewise advantageous to me. This feels like a pretty huge advantage in a deck that wants 5-6 mana on board eventually (if the game isn't over yet).


If adding Caverns, I'd definitely do it in addition to, not instead of Ports. Mana denial just feels way too important against all decks with Goblins-hate (not everyone has cut their Plagues and Humilities, especially with Merfolk & Elves being present in the format too) and against three of the five DTBs right now and in random scenarios.

Tacosnape
08-07-2009, 02:29 PM
That's probably the best Port argument I've heard yet. Engineered Plague is -everywhere- in my metagame, given that Goblins, Merfolk, and Ichorid are all prevalent, and players are working on Elves.

Endril
08-07-2009, 04:24 PM
He didn't even mention this play:

T1: Land, Lacky/Vial
their T1: Land
T2: Rishadan Port (possible lacky w/vial)
their T2: upkeep = tap their land, they play land, can't cast Tarmogoyf

Mantis
08-07-2009, 05:35 PM
Eldariel hit the nail on the head, exactly what I had in my mind to say but I'm bad at finding the right words to tell what I mean. Guess it has something to do with English being my second language.


Uh. Yes I did. Page 127.
My bad, got things mixed up, sorry for that.

Brizentine Empire
08-07-2009, 09:25 PM
I agree that Port is necessary for this deck and is much better than Caverns. The turn one Vial, turn two port strategy is one of the best strategies you can use against Thresh, effectively gaining so much advantage that its crazy. By the time they can drop a goyf, its turn three at the earliest, which by then you already have a lackey off of the vial plus whatever he put into play, plus any two drop you might vial in. The Gemstone Caverns creates for faster, more aggro first couple of turns, which doesn't matter when they have all the mana to play whatever answers they see fit. The Japanese Thresh list runs over players that try to "smash face" easily, especially when so much of the Meta is attempting to do the same thing (Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, even Zoo). Port gives you the opportunity to control your opponent when needed, or, if you have a better turn 2 play, it taps for mana and can control later on.

Also, I haven't played Goblins in about 8 months, so I was wondering: Do any Goblins lists run Mutavault? Maybe the mono-red one? Seems like it'd be ok with the vials, lackeys, and warchiefs to cheat the curve so that you could spend the mana on another goblin beater.

Tacosnape
08-07-2009, 11:24 PM
He didn't even mention this play:

T1: Land, Lacky/Vial
their T1: Land

You need Port to win here?

Seriously, though, most of the instances of Port being strong I see are in best case scenarios. Only in the Plague/Himility instance Eldariel mentioned do I see Port actually shining in a bad situation rather than helping you just win more.

Nessaja
08-08-2009, 01:24 AM
You need Port to win here?
A first turn Vial is not the equivalent of a win. You do need ports and wastelands to keep the game locked up.

FoulQ
08-08-2009, 02:37 AM
Another good thing about port is it is great against players who are bad at mulliganing. If they keep a 2-land hand and your hand contains port they can be screwed. And for some decks locking them out of a color can be important such as against goyf, any other green card, blue cards, black cards, white cards, and sometimes red cards.

Most importantly, port allows you to slow the game down and build up card advantage. It can serve as a tempo tool or a mana locker which I believe goblins really thrives on. I agree that it is a little win-more but locking down people's mana has always been a part of my game plan. If port is so bad in the current metagame, then goblins is too (and honestly I haven't been happy with the deck lately).

IMO what makes goblins viable is its ability to change roles from aggro to control while still maintaining the synergy and plumpness of 30+ creatures. Taking away port really takes away from that ability to be the control role obviously, with or without a vial in play.

Endril
08-08-2009, 04:48 AM
@FoulQ: Are you saying you're not personally enjoying it, or that it's bad. Because Goblins has always been a top contender in Legacy. The germans agree: http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Play+the+Game%2C+See+the+World!+Hamburg+-+Germany
... 3 of those top 8 decks were goblins.

@Brizentine Empire: All 3 goblin decks in the link I posted above run mutavault. However, only 1 of them runs wasteland and none of them run port. I don't agree with that. I personally don't have room for it, mono or not.

@Tacosnape: You have a point that if you play Lackey on turn 1 and they don't have a turn 1 drop, port is just 'win more'. But there's more to it than that. Listen to what the other people are telling you on this post, because they've obviously seen what ports can do. Last year, I ran the deck without ports and only won about half of my matches. I've been doing better since I added the ports. If a threshold deck manages to drop a mongoose on T1, I'm still in a good position if I have a vial on the table and my port delays the Tarmogoyf. I usually don't have good T2 drops anyway. It's either a piledriver without haste or another 1 drop. It's much more beneficial to slow them down on this turn and then start smashing face on T3. That, and it taps down Mishra's Factory when you're on the draw against a deck like 43 land or landstill so you can get in with the Lackey.

@Everyone who stopped playing Mogg Fanatic: Why? I stopped playing them for a while to make room for more removal in my deck, until I remembered that Mogg Fanatic is great removal too. And it blocks. And it's a goblin. For one mana. Run it.

And has anyone found a good sideboard card for threshold? I hate how mongoose can't be targeted, but if I run mass removal I'm usually helping them.

Nelis
08-08-2009, 05:43 AM
And has anyone found a good sideboard card for threshold? I hate how mongoose can't be targeted, but if I run mass removal I'm usually helping them.

How about relic of Progenitus?

Endril
08-08-2009, 05:58 AM
That brings up another point of discussion. Whether to run Relic, Crypt, or some combination of both. Relic would seem the better choice because it also weakens goyf and gets you a card back. But that's also costing you a mana to activate, and it costs 1 to begin with. Crypt can be dropped for free during the fist couple turns when you really need your mana, and dropping it during the first couple turns can be critical vs decks like ichorid.

Nelis
08-08-2009, 06:21 AM
I'd say it depends on your build. I play R/b, so Tarmogoyfs and Mongeese don't bother me that much since I run 4 Warren Weirdings. In that case I'd go for Crypt.

Without Weirding I'd probably consider running Relics.

GreenOne
08-08-2009, 07:37 AM
Goblins has always been a top contender in Legacy. The germans agree: http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Play+the+Game%2C+See+the+World!+Hamburg+-+Germany
... 3 of those top 8 decks were goblins.

@Brizentine Empire: All 3 goblin decks in the link I posted above run mutavault. However, only 1 of them runs wasteland and none of them run port. I don't agree with that. I personally don't have room for it, mono or not.

Actually, 2 of them are running Wastelands. One deck is missing 8 cards and is running only 19 lands. Chances are that he's running wastes too.
There also some other weird choices about those decks: SB kiki-jiki, 3-4 Fanatics, 1 Piledriver MD and so on.. I don't know if mutavaults are worth it. When I tested them they became relevant only against standstill and other tribal decks.


@Everyone who stopped playing Mogg Fanatic: Why? I stopped playing them for a while to make room for more removal in my deck, until I remembered that Mogg Fanatic is great removal too. And it blocks. And it's a goblin. For one mana. Run it.
The only relevant creatures that get hit by fanatic right now are Dark Confidant, Noble Hierarc, Goblin Lackey.
To be fair, I missed fanatic sometimes, when facing one of those dudes. I'll try to re-test it in place of a couple War Marshall, but it seems like the deck has already a good removal package with 4 incinerators and 2 stingscourgers.


And has anyone found a good sideboard card for threshold? I hate how mongoose can't be targeted, but if I run mass removal I'm usually helping them.
Relic is definetly the way to go if you're not splashing. Otherwise you can play Perish.

Tacosnape
08-08-2009, 10:27 AM
Listen to what the other people are telling you on this post, because they've obviously seen what ports can do.

I listen. I just don't agree.

You say this like I haven't been playing Goblins with Ports for several years now. I'm aware of what they can do. I've probably played over ten thousand games with them. A lack of understanding of the card has nothing to do with my preference.

Maybe it's just a metagame thing. I face a lot of Sligh, Zoo, Tribal Aggro, and matchups where Port doesn't help me a bit. But Caverns has done well for me, and I think at current even if I wasn't running Caverns I'd be hesitant to go away from more basics.

ParkerLewis
08-08-2009, 11:42 AM
You say this like I haven't been playing Goblins with Ports for several years now. I'm aware of what they can do. I've probably played over ten thousand games with them.

Just a detail, and I'm not taking any side in the actual argument, but that would amount to around one year of a full time job, which seems unrealistic (unless you're not working, that is. And even like that, still seems quite a lot, and for only one deck at that...). Or around 8 hours of Goblins with Ports each and every week for 5 years straight. It's still hard to imagine : )

But if you did manage to do that, well, the least i can say is that it's impressive (although at this point i wouldn't really know which way).

Tacosnape
08-08-2009, 11:53 AM
Just a detail, and I'm not taking any side in the actual argument, but that would amount to around one year of a full time job, which seems unrealistic (unless you're not working, that is. And even like that, still seems quite a lot, and for only one deck at that...). Or around 5 hours each and every week for 5 years straight of pure Goblins with Ports. It's still hard to imagine : )

I never claimed to have a life.:) But yeah, I actually have no idea how many games I've played with Goblins, but I've had it since Legacy began, play magic pretty regularly both online and in person, and do contract work, so it's possible. Let's say 5000 for the sake of still making the point and go from there.:)

It's also worth noting that I've played a ton of games that I won on turn two from a Lackey hitting or lost on turn two or less from my opponent comboing off, so that should factor in to your time calculations. It's also worth noting that I've had to replace most of the goblins in my r/l deck once from excessive playwear. Sideshuffling. In sleeves.

Nessaja
08-08-2009, 01:33 PM
@Everyone who stopped playing Mogg Fanatic: Why? I stopped playing them for a while to make room for more removal in my deck, until I remembered that Mogg Fanatic is great removal too. And it blocks. And it's a goblin. For one mana. Run it.
I cut my Fanatics before the nerf but I've been including them again, they do have their appeal. Not neccesarily for removal but more as an extra combat trick and alike and some extra speed. I'm not running the full 4 though, they're not that good.

FoulQ
08-08-2009, 01:45 PM
@FoulQ: Are you saying you're not personally enjoying it, or that it's bad. Because Goblins has always been a top contender in Legacy. The germans agree:... 3 of those top 8 decks were goblins.

Basically, yes, I am saying the deck is bad, because other decks with horrid combo MUs like Loam or the new Ultimate Walker absolutely rape most of the rest of the field. I'm not saying it is unplayable, I still play it in most of my tournaments because I am more skilled with it than other decks, but honestly I'm not really seeing where it's good matchups are. And honestly I don't really care about the cute 50man german tournaments. Have you googled Cavius, because he is big in germany.

Melwis
08-08-2009, 06:42 PM
So, i'm gonna post the current list i'm using and i'll try to be ready for you telling me how bad it is but I really think you should test it before you dismiss it. Here it is:

// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
18 [EUL] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
2 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [RAV] Frenzied Goblin
1 [SHM] Bloodmark Mentor
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

So the things to point out:

Incinerator count down to 2: The number one thing I would like to change with the list is to put in a third. Tinkerer might go but I really like having atleast 1 MD artifact destroying goblin for Vial(s) and Jitte.

Frenzied Goblin: This is the reason why I am running less creature removal to begin with. In early game he's just a Goblin that pumps your Piledrivers and/or Incinerators but it's in the mid-to-lategame his ability makes your pumped up Piledrivers connect instead of being chump blocked giving you the win so many turns faster (which means your opponent didn't get time to find possible answers).

Bloodmark Mentor: With a Chieftain out your Goblins can become 3/3 First Strikers with this guy which really helps against other aggro decks. In the mirror you don't even need a Chieftain, this guy alone gives you the big advantage. Oh, and he's also pretty decent with Piledriver I heard!

18 mountains: Needed for Frenzied Goblin + 6 cards that require RR.

With this list, Piledriver becomes so much more then a chump blocked target that basically says "1R (possibly R): Target player sacrifices a creature."

What do you think?

FoulQ
08-08-2009, 11:22 PM
A few notes on your list I've noticed. Not sure if you are an avid reader of the thread or not. Here are a few points on your list that might be glaring:

Tinkerer as a 1of is a bad call. As a 3of he can be a decent meta call. He can't be used reactively because the artifact may kill him because of summoning sickness. He has to be proactive which means 3+. TSH on the other hand....my hard-on for him grows larger by the day. Mainly because my meta is littered with vials right now.

I have tested frenzied goblin. I found that goblins is too many hungry to support him, it wasn't necessarily that I didn't have enough red but that I didn't have enough period.

Instead of running bloodmark mentor, you could run a 3rd incinerator to really help the aggro matchup instead of a win more card.

One more small note: I've found chieftain to be THE card in the mirror. Behind the vial/land wars of course.

Looks like you are going for an aggressive strategy. Personally I view goblins as more of an aggro control deck with the port + wasteland, the only time not playing max ports is when you are in a meta like Taco's where I think your deck will die badly or in RBG. That there is my biggest concern, the manabase. The rest of the deck can live and die and certain card choices can shine and suck no matter what, but time and time again port + wasteland + vial is what wins games for goblins, not some subpar creatures. I've just personally never liked the balls to the walls strategy, as it makes the deck much more of a meta deck than truly a match between two players.

Endril
08-09-2009, 08:40 AM
Basically, yes, I am saying the deck is bad, because other decks with horrid combo MUs like Loam or the new Ultimate Walker absolutely rape most of the rest of the field. I'm not saying it is unplayable, I still play it in most of my tournaments because I am more skilled with it than other decks, but honestly I'm not really seeing where it's good matchups are. And honestly I don't really care about the cute 50man german tournaments. Have you googled Cavius, because he is big in germany.

I don't get it. Goblins win. I'll agree that Loam is nasty. And so is Walker, although I like my match-up against it. But Goblins is and probably always will be a deck you'll see in lots of top 8's. That's not a matter of opinion... it's fact. Just look at some tournament results. And as for 50 player tournaments, that's pretty big for Legacy.

And why don't more people play Goblin King? It gives +1/+1 just like Chieftain does, and the mountainwalk is often a win condition.

Dan Turner
08-09-2009, 09:22 AM
I don't get it. Goblins win. I'll agree that Loam is nasty. And so is Walker, although I like my match-up against it. But Goblins is and probably always will be a deck you'll see in lots of top 8's. That's not a matter of opinion... it's fact. Just look at some tournament results. And as for 50 player tournaments, that's pretty big for Legacy.

And why don't more people play Goblin King? It gives +1/+1 just like Chieftain does, and the mountainwalk is often a win condition.

One of the few time you see red other then zoo is in the mirror match and Goblin King is horrible in the mirror match the few decks that that run red are not worth the mirror match

Nessaja
08-09-2009, 11:25 AM
One of the few time you see red other then zoo is in the mirror match and Goblin King is horrible in the mirror match the few decks that that run red are not worth the mirror match
Tempo Thresh, some landstill builds, all survival builds, Zoo, Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam.

Considering all of those except DS are DTB's that's not even that bad. I'm not playing King but it seems "ok", more a sideboard thing. I prefer Chieftain by far.

FoulQ
08-09-2009, 11:28 AM
I don't get it. Goblins win. I'll agree that Loam is nasty. And so is Walker, although I like my match-up against it. But Goblins is and probably always will be a deck you'll see in lots of top 8's. That's not a matter of opinion... it's fact. Just look at some tournament results. And as for 50 player tournaments, that's pretty big for Legacy.

You have to realize that the amount of people playing goblins is going to be higher than other decks, especially in more undeveloped metagames. So it is going to end up placing more than some other decks just because of the sheer amount of people playing it. I guarantee you that if there were the same number of people playing and testing TES or practically any other deck that it would top eight a lot more than goblins.

Just look at the matchups for this deck even in the DTB.

Landstill: Traditionally even depending on port inclusion.
Aggro Loam: Slightly unfavorable, depending on the build.
Countertop: Slightly favorable, especially if splashing black for weirding.
Zoo: Very unfavorable.
Survival: Personally I'm not sure, this deck doesn't exist where I am.
Tempo Thresh: In my opinion, slightly unfavorable, and it gets worse post-SB. Playing black splash helps though.
Merfolk: Favorable.

So there is no bomb matchups like with merfolk. And there is no mega skill contests like with Landstill and Countertop, where the player relies on skill instead of the matchup. So goblins can serve as neither a meta deck with a few great matchups, nor as a skill testing deck, because I mean, come on, let's face it, that is the realm of decks like landstill.

So is goblins an outdated and bad deck in today's meta? Basically yes. Is it unplayable? Of course not, and it can still dominate in underdeveloped metas.

And there is a search function. Goblin King has been discussed about 500 times. Honestly probably more than that. There is a search function. The following cards have been discussed and are somewhat playable depending on the meta or not playable:

Bloodmark Mentor, Boartusk Liege, Boggart Mob, Caterwauling Boggart, Earwig Squad, Fodder Launch, Frenzied Goblin, Frogtosser Banneret, Goblin Assassin, Goblin Burrows, Goblin Chieftain, Goblin Goon, Goblin Grappler, Goblin King, Goblin Medics, Goblin Pyromancer, Goblin Settler, Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Sledder, Goblin Taskmaster, Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Vandal, Goblin Wizard, Ib Halfheart Goblin Tactician, Intimidator Initiate, Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker, Knucklebone Witch, Lightning Crafter, Mad Auntie, Mogg Fanatic, Mogg Flunkies, Mogg Raider, Mogg Sentry, Mogg War Marshal, Mon's Goblin Raiders, Murderous Redcap, Raging Goblin, Razorfin fucking Hunter, Reckless One, Sensation Gorger, Shrieking Mogg, Skirk Drill Sergeant, Skirk Fire Marshal, Skirk Prospector, Sparksmith, Spikeshot Goblin, Stingscourger, Tarfire, Tattermunge Maniac, Tin Street Hooligan, Vexing Shusher, Warren Weirding, Wort Boggart Auntie, and Wort the Raidmother.

The following goblins are the always playable ones:

AEther Vial, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Warchief, Lands, and Siege-Gang Commander. Sometimes a sideboard too.

Every other goblin has not had the chance to be terribly suggested yet. And the bolded ones above are the ones that honestly there is like 50 posts on every page about why we should/should not play them. If you have questions about any of the above cards a simple search function should suffice.

Nessaja
08-09-2009, 11:45 AM
You have to realize that the amount of people playing goblins is going to be higher than other decks, especially in more undeveloped metagames.
This is by far not necessarily true. And a gross generalization.


So is goblins an outdated and bad deck in today's meta? Basically yes. Is it unplayable? Of course not, and it can still dominate in underdeveloped metas.
Actually, Goblins is good at doing big tournaments. That's because regardless of where you play a big tournament is going to have decks that are really random. Metagame decks like countertop don't deal well with random decks that are outside the curve whereas goblins has no problems there. The first rounds are therefore a lot easier for goblins then for other decks, it's the top 8 where you need a bit of luck but honestly, Goblins MU's aren't bad at all. Most are around 50/50.

The Zoo MU is better then you give it credit for, it's not favorable for Goblins but depending on who goes first you certainly do have a chance, mostly thanks to wasteland and co.

Endril
08-09-2009, 03:26 PM
I admit I've only played a few matches against Zoo, but I've won all of them. It may be because I maindeck 4 plows or SB a couple pyrokinesis, but I'd be happy to see it in a tournament.

What kind of meta would you expect at worlds? I have less than a week to prepare my SB for it.

Arsenal
08-10-2009, 10:01 AM
I recently came into a bunch of store credit over at trollandtoad. It's enough to buy every card needed to construct Goblins... the mono-red version only.

Looking at the opening post, I wonder if the cards choices still hold up today? I'm assuming Mogg Fanatic is not included anymore due to M10 rules, but is the overall shell still the same?

I tried looking at deckcheck.net and mono-red lists were interwoven with non-monored lists; messy and timeconsuming to click 433 links to weed out the mono-red lists.

GreenOne
08-10-2009, 10:16 AM
I recently came into a bunch of store credit over at trollandtoad. It's enough to buy every card needed to construct Goblins... the mono-red version only.

Looking at the opening post, I wonder if the cards choices still hold up today? I'm assuming Mogg Fanatic is not included anymore due to M10 rules, but is the overall shell still the same?

I tried looking at deckcheck.net and mono-red lists were interwoven with non-monored lists; messy and timeconsuming to click 433 links to weed out the mono-red lists.
Yeah, the shell for monored is almost the same!
Here's my list, with bolded the least fixed slots. You can change them to whatever you like (goblins, lands, or Relic of Progenitus), even if I (obviously) suggest my list as a good one ;)

// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [WL] Gaea's Blessing

Arsenal
08-10-2009, 11:25 AM
Ordered 95% of the cards... damn "out-of-stock" status. I'm pretty excited.

EDIT: For mono-red, if your meta has a lot of CounterTop (Thresh, Dreadstill, etc) or just retarded blue stuff in general, is Mogg Salvage possibly worth running in the side? Many times, it'll be free and it dodges CounterTop to a reasonable degree... or is Goblin Tinkerer just better for mono-red combating artifacts?

Brizentine Empire
08-11-2009, 02:06 AM
Tinkerer is better against more decks, and Goblins doesn't worry about Countertop too much because you run so many 3,4, and 5 cc plus you can drop vial before balance.

Endril
08-11-2009, 04:37 AM
I realized I need a way to deal with artifacts so I made room for a tinkerer in the SB. Here's how the board looks now:

x4 Disenchant
x4 Relic of Progenitus
x4 Pyrostatic Pillar
x1 Vexing Shusher
x1 Goblin King
x1 Goblin Tinkerer

Not having a couple Pyrokinesis might make me weaker against aggressive decks like Goblins, Zoo, and Fish, but it's not like I've been losing to those decks a lot. I've considered dropping Pyrostatic Pillar for Ethersworn Canonist or Thorn of Amethyst, but Pillar seems to hate on more decks (and I'd have to buy the other cards 'cuz I don't own them yet). I've also considered dropping Vexing Shusher for Stingscourger.

true story
08-11-2009, 08:56 AM
And there is a search function. Goblin King has been discussed about 500 times. Honestly probably more than that. There is a search function. The following cards have been discussed and are somewhat playable depending on the meta or not playable:

Bloodmark Mentor, Boartusk Liege, Boggart Mob, Caterwauling Boggart, Earwig Squad, Fodder Launch, Frenzied Goblin, Frogtosser Banneret, Goblin Assassin, Goblin Burrows, Goblin Chieftain, Goblin Goon, Goblin Grappler, Goblin King, Goblin Medics, Goblin Pyromancer, Goblin Settler, Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Sledder, Goblin Taskmaster, Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Vandal, Goblin Wizard, Ib Halfheart Goblin Tactician, Intimidator Initiate, Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker, Knucklebone Witch, Lightning Crafter, Mad Auntie, Mogg Fanatic, Mogg Flunkies, Mogg Raider, Mogg Sentry, Mogg War Marshal, Mon's Goblin Raiders, Murderous Redcap, Raging Goblin, Razorfin fucking Hunter, Reckless One, Sensation Gorger, Shrieking Mogg, Skirk Drill Sergeant, Skirk Fire Marshal, Skirk Prospector, Sparksmith, Spikeshot Goblin, Stingscourger, Tarfire, Tattermunge Maniac, Tin Street Hooligan, Vexing Shusher, Warren Weirding, Wort Boggart Auntie, Wort the Raidmother, and Zo-Zu the Punisher.

The following goblins are the always playable ones:

AEther Vial, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Warchief, Lands, and Siege-Gang Commander. Sometimes a sideboard too.

Every other goblin has not had the chance to be terribly suggested yet. And the bolded ones above are the ones that honestly there is like 50 posts on every page about why we should/should not play them. If you have questions about any of the above cards a simple search function should suffice.

You forgot Terminate

Skeggi
08-11-2009, 09:23 AM
Terminate isn't a Goblin. That would nerf Ringleader and isn't tutorable with Matron.

Waikiki
08-11-2009, 11:18 AM
After seeing the T8 report from media I got inspired and made this build:

// Lands
5 [ST] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
4 [B] Badlands
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
3 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret

// Spells
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
SB: 1 [LRW] Mad Auntie

Weird enough im wondering about piledriver being mogg war marshall since it has more blocking power and gets more pumpable goblins out. Also it works great with cabal therapy.

Elfrago
08-13-2009, 03:58 AM
An article for goblin lovers out there:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17879_Practical_Legacy_Where_Have_All_The_Goblins_Gone.html

And a question from a deck n00b like me: is warren weirding really better than swords to plowshares? Here in Italy Rw Goblins is still played and puts up some decent finishes.

GreenOne
08-13-2009, 04:27 AM
And a question from a deck n00b like me: is warren weirding really better than swords to plowshares? Here in Italy Rw Goblins is still played and puts up some decent finishes.
I was having this conversation with a french friend just yesterday.
The white splash gives you good (but non-goblin) spot removal, and some disenchant effects.

Fact is, by playing white you weaken your manabase, needing to play 2-3 duals and 8 fetches.
If you're willing to exchange manabase stability for power, you're better just play that route. For just 2-3 duals more you get to play both Black AND Green, allowing you to play the best creature removal in goblins (Weirdings), and the best Disenchant effects (Tin Street Hooligan in the maindeck and Krosan Grip in the SB). This seems to me the best of the possible solutions once you decide that opening your manabases to stifles and wastes is worth the power.

On the fact that in Italy Rw continue to put up results. This is probably the most played version, but it's indeed THAT played just because we, as Italians) are quite slow to adapt to changes and quite conservative. A Rbg version can do better than a Rw one in the long run, but it's still Goblin, and it's going to putting up results.

Elfrago
08-13-2009, 05:08 AM
Thing is, maybe I'm a bit retarted but, I don't get WHY Weirding is better than Swords. Swords is cheaper (and thus faster) and it always hits what you want.
Weirding has indeed more synergy with the rest of the deck but it's power level is surely inferior to StP. And, more often than not, Power > Synergy.
Last but not least, 99% of the time you're going to hit a big dumb monster named Tarmogoyf and Sword is better than Weirding in this task.

Regarding disenchants, you can always play Rwg.

GreenOne
08-13-2009, 05:19 AM
Thing is, maybe I'm a bit retarted but, I don't get WHY Weirding is better than Swords. Swords is cheaper (and thus faster) and it always hits what you want.
Weirding has indeed more synergy with the rest of the deck but it's power level is surely inferior to StP. And, more often than not, Power > Synergy.
Last but not least, 99% of the time you're going to hit a big dumb monster named Tarmogoyf and Sword is better than Weirding in this task.

Regarding disenchants, you can always play Rwg.
If Power > Synergy in tribal decks, why aren't we playing Goyf?

Good things about WW:
- It costs B with warchief in play
- It's tutorable with Matron
- Does not reduce goblin density with Ringleader
- Does not target -> can kill Mongoose

Those are the real deals about it. Swords might be marginally better, but not being tutorable (and crib swap is not a valid alternative) means that you're not going to always have it when you need it.
Often swords and an edict function almost the same way, but this kind of edict has the added benefits of tribal, that in a tribal decks are awesome.

Elfrago
08-13-2009, 06:54 AM
Good things about WW:
- It costs B with warchief in play


Really? Swords always costs W! :laugh:



- It's tutorable with Matron


Agreed.



- Does not reduce goblin density with Ringleader


Vial screws ringleader too, but is awesome so you play vial anyway. Swords is awesome too.



- Does not target -> can kill Mongoose

Sometimes is going to kill Mongoose but often it won't hit what you want.
And today Moongose is often replaced with Noble Yeararch, a guaranteed WW screwer.

I see your points but I'm not sold on this one. Anyway I won't bother you again since I'm not an experienced goblin player and I don't have testings to back up my thoughts.
Anyway, if someone else wants to add it's thoughts on the matter I'd gladly hear them.

socialite
08-13-2009, 07:42 AM
Really? Swords always costs W!

Players gain life with Swords. Goblins = Aggro deck.

Isn't black (best splash IMHO).

There are no white Goblins.

Can't make you tokens.

Targets, lol shroud.

Can't tutor it.

Why do you want to play swords again?

Ectoplasm
08-13-2009, 08:22 AM
There are no white Goblins.

Goblin Legionnaire and Boros Recruit want a word with you :D

johanessen
08-13-2009, 09:32 AM
And Heartfire Hobgoblin and Hobgoblin Dragoon too. But all of 'em are crap. I also think WW is too good to use swords, and with the 3/4 gempalms we can kill all hierarchs and birds the opponent may have

Nessaja
08-13-2009, 09:51 AM
Goblin Legionnaire used to be good pre-m10, sort of a shame.

Anyway, I can entirely see Swords being better in a meta that is full with Aggro and Tribal Decks. I don't know much about the italian scene but if what I hear is true then a Goblins mirror match is not uncommon, in this scenario Weirding is just bad. What about elves? Same deal. Zoo? Rather have STP. Weirding gets worse the more creatures your opponent plays really.

Vial screws ringleader too, but is awesome so you play vial anyway. Swords is awesome too.
If you include every card that is awesome but not a Goblin you're left with a very subpar goblin deck. Maximizing tribal synergies is the thing that sets goblins apart from just being 1/1's and 2/2's. That an exception is made for Vial does not mean that more exceptions can be made if you still want a strong Tribal aspect.

christophenuss
08-13-2009, 12:31 PM
I read the article and it seemed like a concise restatement of things that have been said here ad infinitum. But I think I agree we haven't changed nearly as much as the meta has.

Combo is always going to be rough we as the agro have to accept that. There are things we can do Amethyst Thorn, Pillar, chalice, but we probably have to take that one on the chin.

Control I think is winnable. Its not the roll it used to be, but in testing Chieftain is really helping me.

His point about not being able to out agro zoo, is obviously true. So the question is what can we do about that and the answer is not clear. Zoo runs 16 removal spells. All of them can take out our best answers and threats. So how do we win?

I think Ib, might be worth running. It is non targeted burn. And it hits everything that blocks the goblin. And 4 damage kills everything but a late game Figure of Destiny. It also stops counters from being put on a Jitte. I think Ib is only half the answer though. Making them block is the other problem. I am going to do some testing and see what I come up with. If anyone has already gone down this path, please tell me what you thought.

Edit:

Also I am going to test arena, merely as a way of taping down a creature vs control and mb agro in a pinch.

GGoober
08-13-2009, 12:47 PM
If Power > Synergy in tribal decks, why aren't we playing Goyf?



You know, I have the craziest feeling that we haven't done any testing to play Goyfs in Goblins. It sounds crazy, maybe bad on paper. But has this actually been done and tested?

I know Survival Elves play 4 Goyfs simply because it's good by itself and against control decks. Have we even tested this?

Great question GreenOne. This is going to be funny if we haven't tested it and tested it up and it shows better results lol.

Arsenal
08-13-2009, 12:53 PM
I would think Goblins would be largely dependant on the opponent to fill the yard. Outside of Vial and maybe Pyrokinesis/Weirding/StP, what non-creature spells do we run? Fetchlands, sure. But beyond that? How do we reliably fill our own yard for Goyf?

christophenuss
08-13-2009, 01:03 PM
I think goyf could reasonably be a 4/5 in Rx goblins (Creature, Land, Tribal, Sorcery). but only a 2/3 in mono red. Unless we are playing him to counter other decks running him and that would make him at least a 5/6 with the addition of instants.

GGoober
08-13-2009, 01:30 PM
Well you don't really need to bother with your yard. The deal is goblins had and has problems against Goyf. So by playing your own goyf, you would get the same goyf regardless of yard size. In legacy, you don't need to focus on getting your yard big because the format automatically does so. Goyf is at the very least 2/3, and is usually 3/4. If you're running tribal, you could get it very big. We have sorceries/creatures/lands, your opponents would usually have instants/lands, so goyf is always the standard 4/5.

GreenOne
08-13-2009, 02:25 PM
goyf was tested and dismissed in 2008. Being non-tribal was just bad.

true story
08-14-2009, 11:23 AM
Back to the Weirding vs Swords debate. Nobody mentioned that if you play Wort, Boggart Auntie you can reuse Weirding over and over again, which is just fucking awesome.

Koby
08-14-2009, 12:35 PM
It was mentioned many pages back. This was the reason that got me to examine Goblins against after my 3 year haitus.

I think a combination of WW and Incinerator is the right call. WW to pick off lone blockers and Incinerator to pick off specific blockers. I run 3/3 right now, but it can swing to 4 Gempalm/2WW or the other way very easily.

true story
08-14-2009, 03:14 PM
Gempalm doesn't always kill enough shit for me, I love Terminate. I know it's not a Goblin but it's awesome just the same. I run 3 and 3 Weirdings and it works wonders.

Malchar
08-14-2009, 04:49 PM
Tutorable removal is the most important thing that an aggro deck can have. All of the conditional utilities that you need should be tutorable. If the opponent starts getting blockers, goblins starts to lose immediately. You can't just rely on topdecking for removal. Honestly, it doesn't matter if Warren Weirding costs :1: more than Swords to Plowshares does. You basically lose the game if you can't kill the opponent's creatures when you need to.

The fact that mono-red goblins does reasonably fine with only Incinerator should be proof that adding non-goblin removal doesn't help very much. The traditional reason that white was added in the first place is because of the desire to gain access to disenchant effects. Swords was just added because more removal was favorable but tribal spells weren't available yet.

The only bad thing about Warren Weirding is that it pumps goyf.

FoulQ
08-14-2009, 05:05 PM
I can't believe the discussion going on in this thread is about SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES, a card that has been bad for two years in this deck. Gempalm is a very solid card, although if you go down to 8 one drops and in addition you are not playing mogg war marshal/frogtosser, I can see why one may not like him. I hate to state the obvious but he is uncounterable and he is a cantrip which make it a great card even if it requires lots of guys.

Through my testing I think discussion needs more about Media's build and less about discussions that have been had before. I think it has the potential to be the wave of the future in certain metagames. My current RB frogtosser chieftain build is very similar to Waikiki's build above, but not a fan of that sideboard.

However I think going to less than 3 piledrivers is a mistake. People fear the card so much it's funny, he is a removal magnet. Win-more maybe, but he demands attention and always changes the field of combat that a deck of 2/2s cannot do otherwise.

Waikiki
08-15-2009, 02:56 AM
Nice, to see your also going that direction.What SB do you use? It has served me very well. What SB do you use? Im not that experienced in playing goblins and would like some SB advice vs the tier matchups.

FoulQ
08-15-2009, 01:36 PM
It's mainly a meta call of course. The obvious problem with the new age RB builds is that you are not playing green for grip/hooligan and you also lose port, so cards like moat and humility become real problems, which makes earwig squad extermely important, which makes me sad because I've always hated him. It also makes me want to run pithing needle as a catch all answer to a lot of nasty cards that there is no other way you can stop without port/grip. I'd go with those 6-7 cards in any new age RB sideboard (if you aren't playing earwigs maindeck) and go from there, probably including 4 cards for the combo matchup (as you picked cabal therapy, it's an ok choice), 4 for that nasty zoo deck, and then maybe 1-2 super meta spots.

I actually like chalice of the void in the deck, because that + earwigs is often decent sideboarding against combo, and on the play it can also serve as an ok card against zoo/canadian and a crushing one against burn. I know some people like REB because it is good against blue decks and combo but I've always found it awkward and cloggy against blue (in goblins).

The notable exclusion from my new age RB sideboard is GY hate and creature hate. The only creature decks that I see are merfolk and zoo, and merfolk is a good matchup already. And to me GY hate has always taken away a little too much from the goblin strategy, though relic of course is always a solid card. In the end it is a meta call of course.

3 Earwig Squad
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Mad Auntie (2 MD)
3 Relic of Progenitus

Is my sideboard right now. Obviously it needs some tweaking though. In the end I do play GY hate as Chalice serves as combo + burn hate together, although it is only OK and not spectacular against either, it does free up sideboard space.

Waikiki
08-15-2009, 05:01 PM
I currently switched to 4 SB magus of the moon since they can pretty much slow down the control decks. Good point on removing the moats from the deck!

What is your main deck since I found it hard to get slots for the mad auntie.

FoulQ
08-15-2009, 07:47 PM
Magus of the Moon is definitely a tough card for control decks to beat. However I think the deck should stick to its guns and try to maximize goblin synergy, as goblins has traditionally had a good matchup against control. 4 Warren Weirdings helps (countertop control) and the Earwigs help against control AND combo AND problem game 2 cards like plague. Also pithing needle is great against many control decks and more. It depends how intimate you are with your meta. In my meta it is very flexible and changing which is why cards like earwig, needle, chalice are always good safe bets. So I'd rather spend my sideboard on versatile slots or slots for the tough matchups instead of cards for the control matchup. But of course like everyone says it always depends.

My main deck is not very fine tuned as of now. It needs some work.

MANA [26]
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
5 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial

GOBLINS [29]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
0-2 Goblin Warchief
1-2 Mad Auntie
2-3 Siege-Gang Commander

REMOVAL [6]
4 Warren Weirding
1-2 Gempalm Incinerator

I'm also testing a version without chieftains but so far this has been better.

Eldariel
08-15-2009, 11:31 PM
So, we're once again a Deck to Beat. Quick listing of all the decks that performed for our calculations (unfortunately I'm missing one list from Northern Legacy League 5 - couldn't find the decks anywhere):

8º LML Madrid
Jose Raúl Rico
6th place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Bloodmark Mentor
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Lightning Crafter
4 Aether Vial
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Shattering Spree
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Pyromancer


Legacy Hassloch 17.05.09
Bryn Jones
5th place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Aether Vial
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Weirding
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Pyromancer
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Warren Weirding
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Perish


3º Torneo Legacy Casa Da Xuventude Ourense
Emilio Rodríguez Tilve
3rd place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
2 Warren Weirding
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Earwig Squad
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Boggart Mob
4 Aether Vial
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Warren Weirding
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst


3º Torneo Legacy Casa Da Xuventude Ourense
Andrés Pérez
5th place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Aether Vial
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga

Sideboard:
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Price of Progress


Earthquake 2
Maccagnani Andrea
1st place

Mainboard:
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip


Northern Legacy League 5
2nd place

Rw Goblins


Master of Geddon
Daniele Conigliaro
2nd place

Mainboard:
5 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
3 Skirk Prospector
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Leave No Trace
3 Disenchant
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Price of Progress


Master of Geddon
Maicol Beltrame
3rd place

Mainboard:
8 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Disenchant
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroblast
4 Thorn of Amethyst


Master of Geddon
Federico Gilardi
8th Place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Boggart Mob
2 Earwig Squad
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Lightning Crafter
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin King
3 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Extirpate


Bourgoin Jailleu V
Jérémy Gellon
1st place

Mainboard:
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
17 Mountain
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Stingscourger
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Shattering Spree
4 Red Elemental Blast


Lotacy 04/07/09
Xavi Granados
3rd Place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin King
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
4 Taiga
6 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon


The End of MTG's Days
Giarola Andrea
6th place

Mainboard:
5 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin King
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Stingscourger
1 Leave No Trace
4 Disenchant
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Shatterstorm


Open CDF St Denis en Bugey
Fabian Ledoux
8th Place

Mainboard:
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Mad Auntie
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Cabal Therapy


Universidad de las Artes Lúdicas Duel for Duals
Ignacio Herrero
1st place

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Aether Vial
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggard Auntie
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Goblin King
2 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga

Sideboard:
1 Stingscourger
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Relic of Progeitus
3 Earwig Squad
1 Boartusk Liege


M10 & M10 Rules from here on


Ancient Memory Convention 50 (this was on the day of M10 going legal)
Kenji Hiyama
2nd place

Mainboard:
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Goon
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Duress
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Earwig Squad
3 Relic of Progenitus


Japan Legacy Championship 2009
Kataoka Asami
3rd place

Mainboard:
2 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
1 Murderous Redcap
2 Skirk Prospector
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Stingscourger
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin King
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerator

Sideboard:
3 Snuff Out
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Warren Weirding
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Mad Auntie


Play the Game, See the World!
Niklas von Boguzewski
4th place

Mainboard:
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Warren Weirding
3 Mutavault
2 Taiga
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mountain
2 Badlands

Sideboard:
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Perish
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
2 Thoughtseize
2 Goblin King


Play the Game, See the World!
Lorenz Kiefer
5th place

Mainboard:
3 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Wasteland
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Aether Vial
4 Mutavault
15 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Price of Progress
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Play the Game, See the World!
Tobias Dreger
6th place

Mainboard:
4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mutavault
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Perish
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress


Finnish Legacy Championships 2009
Tero Arpiainen
8th place

Mainboard:
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Warren Weirding
4 Badlands
2 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
5 Mountain
1 Tin-street Hooligan
1 Wort Boggart Auntie

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Mountain
1 Gempalm Incinerator


Results by splash:

Mono-Red: 111
Red/Black/Green: 1111111
Red/Green: 11111
Red/White: 1111
Red/Black: 1

So Rbg is the most popular/performing the best with all the other color combinations being somewhat presented, with Rb having the worst time of the bunch. Apparently enchantment removal is still the word of the day rather than creature removal.

It's worth noting that 8 builds have no removal splash whatsoever, suggesting that the red removal package is still quite sufficient. 11 have either Warren Weirdings or Swords to Plowshares though.

Nihil Credo
08-16-2009, 05:56 AM
Here's the missing list from NLL#5. It's actually the same list that the same guy played at Master of Geddon.

Maicol Beltrame Aka Babybue
Goblin RW

2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain
4 Plateu
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Vexing Shuser
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incenerator
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
60
SIDE
4 Disenchant
3 Pyroblast
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic Of Progenitus

GreenOne
08-16-2009, 06:15 AM
Interesting to note that all the white splashes are from Italy.
We probably have a thing for white, dunno.

Anyway, lol @ the goblin's decline article! :laugh:

After a little bit of counting, here are some highlights:
45 Mogg Fanatic (2,25 avg per deck): are those results before fanatic got nerfed? otherwise we probably have to test him again. The number of Confidants and Noble Hierarc might have screwed our results.
23 Rishadan Port (1,15 avg): evidently rishadan port got worse against SDT, and Mutavault (see below) got better, probably due to Standstill and other tribal decks.
14 Mutavault (0,7 avg): see above.
12 Stingscourger (0,6 avg).
9 Kiki-Jiki (0,45)+ 9 Lightning Crafter + 7 Skirk Prospector (+4 Sharpshooter): Holy Combo, Batman! actually a lot of people is playing those one ofs to have a shoot against moat and other stall I guess. Needs some test for sure.
8 Wort, Boggart Auntie: Looks like every Rbx version is playing one.
8 Vexing Shusher: what?
7 Goblin Chieftain: Seems a little low, considered the power of the card and the fact that it's red.
4 Mogg War Marshal: ok, so we're like 2-3 people in the world thinking this card is good.

Other stuff:
1 Bloodmark Mentor
3 Earwig Squad
2 Boggart Mob
2 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goyf (oh noes!)

Mantis
08-16-2009, 07:16 AM
Well the article makes sense if you look at it from a US perspective. There's apparantly a ton of Zoo there and to be honest, that's not a metagame I would pick Goblins as my weapon of choice.

Waikiki
08-16-2009, 09:39 AM
I'd give people some time to further test with the new lord and other possibilities. We all love to stay with the original build. Thinking outside the box is hard.

Eldariel
08-16-2009, 10:53 AM
@Nihil: Thanks, couldn't dig that up for the life of me. Navigating Tipo1.it without speaking Italian was kind of hard.

@GreenOne: Thanks. I was going to do such a listing myself, but fell asleep. Anyways, regarding Goblin Chieftain and Mogg Fanatic, it's worth noting that these results start from May and M10 came out in the middle of July so only ~a third of these decks are post-M10.

Ancient Memory Convention 50 is the first M10-empowered deck - I added the note in the listing. And the white splash has been consistently performing over the years. We must remember that in the first GP, it was mono-red and Rw that Top 8d and it has been doing well since.

Also, Swords to Plowshares is still the best removal spell ever printed and Goblins is very capable of dealing with the life deficit, especially if it gets to swing through some big blockers. Indeed, I don't like Weirding due to the existence of Daze; StP suffers not of that problem. Stingscourger on the other hand has Vial and Lackey to cheat it through without fear of counters. I think we're selling the white splash short just on the account of the Goblins-count (which is still ~30).


@Mantis: Mayhap, but I have to point out that Zoo isn't a nightmare match-up or anything. Indeed, without hate, I'm not sure if Zoo is even favored in the match-up - Goblins has historically beat up on aggro decks on the account of the midgame gas the deck packs and that hasn't really changed; the only difference is that the 1-drops can be 3/3 now (and the deck is more vulnerable to Wasteland).

That said, I understand Anwar's PoV. I think he's definitely selling Goblins short there though - if you've got a great MU vs. one of the DTB (Merfolk), good against the other one (Countertop) and decent vs. the last two (Tempo Thresh & Zoo) with only one bad MU in the DTW-area, I think the deck is rather well poised for the metagame.

Shanghi Knights
08-18-2009, 03:36 PM
i would of thought more people would of had goblin pyromancers in there sideboards for mirror matches but oh well just one of my rambled thoughts.

FoulQ
08-18-2009, 04:19 PM
Pyromancer isn't really that good in the mirror because if he is killed his effect will not take place, such as with gempalm. I mean he is ok but eh. Mirror match is not really about the goblins, but the lands and the vials, and how many/if pyrokinesis in sideboard. A 24 land RG build with 2 md Tin Street and 4 SB pyrokinesis will dominate the mirror much more than a goblin build packing 3 SB pyromancer.

I don't think Zoo is a good matchup. Or an average matchup. Or a bad matchup. It is a terrible one.
1) 10-12 removal that can take out any of our creatures
2) Around 20 creatures that are all X/3 or more, basically giant walls akin to goyf. Plus possibly lavamancer, aka nightmare city, especially for those evil fanatic cutters.
3) Possible red sweepers out of the SB.

Winning the die roll is a huge help though in regards to land wars. The faster you can shut down one of their colors the better (obv).

Pyrokinesis, not my favorite in the matchup. In fact so far it has sucked for me against zoo. Perish is my card of choice but I don't always want to run black (plus it has some ok applications in other places). Any other good ones? EE maybe? I usually run x2 in my 3c goblins.

Eldariel
08-18-2009, 04:57 PM
I don't think Zoo is a good matchup. Or an average matchup. Or a bad matchup. It is a terrible one.
1) 10-12 removal that can take out any of our creatures
2) Around 20 creatures that are all X/3 or more, basically giant walls akin to goyf. Plus possibly lavamancer, aka nightmare city, especially for those evil fanatic cutters.
3) Possible red sweepers out of the SB.

My experience is frankly way different. Turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Waste will just win all too many games vs. them and Lavamancer shouldn't ever untap unless you cut Gempalms AND Fanatics (how dumb of you) thanks to the presence of Matrons.

Stuff like Lackey and Warchief can be used to draw fire (or just bury them) while Stingscourger buys time and Matron+Ringleader+SGC win it for you. Frankly, my record vs. Zoo is positive. Pride-Mage is an annoyance, but they rarely get to 3 untapped lands in play vs. you so they have to play it out for you to destroy. Of course, if you play Rbx relying on Weirding over Sting/Gempalm, may god help your soul.


But yeah, Vial is the key in the match-up; it ramps you up while your mana disruption keeps them playing fair, and often Wasteland can be used to just cripple their "big creatures" outside Goyf (which you just chump most of the time when you can't kill/bounce it).

You run more lands - the deck with more lands is traditionally the favorite in red mirror and that's how it's played out for me. Your superior mana production and ability to force them to kill creatures will just beat most of their draws (of course they have nuts sometimes and just kill you, but even then it depends on you not being able to assault their sparse resource, be it lands, creatures or stuff forcing burn) and they're usually arrogant enough not to pack more than 2-3 Pyroclasms/Volcanic Fallouts total. Also, vs those cards, Pyrokinesis and Wasteland can be used to easily wipe both sides of the board (which is, if you didn't guess, in your favor as your lategame is 1000 times better than theirs unless they have Cursed Scroll).

Oh, and Price of Progress sucks against the mono-R versions, yet another advantage. Though I can see how Rbg would be horrible here. It has basically none of the factors allowing mono-R to do well vs. Zoo. Another reason I'd run mono-R with Stings in the present metagame, btw.


As for Pyromancer, it got cut from my 75 long ago as better cards were printed and the metagame shifted to require different cards. It does quite a bit, but I simply cannot fit it without cutting something I deem more important. Mirror is the last of its uses; killing both sides is rarely the thing you want to do. What it does is steal games where you have that one turn window to swing for the win - it's a huge boost out of nowhere easily throwing all opponent's calculations to the wind. That said, I find myself needing more Goblins rather than more finishers. In a 4 War Marshal 4 SGC-build, I could see it perhaps if you can fit it in, but you'll have even greater problem fitting it in in such a build.

christophenuss
08-18-2009, 05:08 PM
For Zoo I have been testing with some success Flamebreak. Its 3 damage to all non flying creatures. It wont hit goyf or an active Jitte, but that and Pyrochensis have put me in situations where I can win. The burn they run just makes the game so hard for us. Another option is Firestorm, but that is a lot of card disadvantage.

FoulQ
08-18-2009, 05:14 PM
My experience is frankly way different. Turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Waste will just win all too many games vs. them and Lavamancer shouldn't ever untap unless you cut Gempalms AND Fanatics (how dumb of you) thanks to the presence of Matrons.

I have two versions going right now of goblins, a classic Rg version with a very light splash and a new age Rb version. I play 4 gempalm 4 fanatic in Rg and 2 gempalm 3 fanatic in Rb. I'll be honest and say I probably haven't played against the deck as much as you and in all likelihood you are a better player than me so I think that is a potential factor. But still, comparatively speaking with other matchups, my experiences have shown zoo to be second worse to combo. I guess I haven't really tried hyper aggressive mulligan into vial. It is just that I've found that without waste/port AND vial I have a hard time keeping up: either I end up spending my lands on stopping them even if they have a threat on the field (I'm playing 23 land right now...and if I'm on the draw they often will have a threat, even if it is just a 2/2 nacatl), or my vial is just not fast enough to race their army and burn. Sorry if you took offense to my post maybe I'm just not playing the matchup quite right.

I'm currently not playing sting in Rg though I think I might go down to 2 SGC and 3 fanatic for x2...I did always love him.

And yes I still like fanatic, he always gets in there as such an underestimated damage dealer and there have been a lot of creature strategies in my meta as of late where has done well.

dr4g0n
08-18-2009, 06:44 PM
I have two versions going right now of goblins, a classic Rg version with a very light splash and a new age Rb version. I play 4 gempalm 4 fanatic in Rg and 2 gempalm 3 fanatic in Rb. I'll be honest and say I probably haven't played against the deck as much as you and in all likelihood you are a better player than me so I think that is a potential factor. But still, comparatively speaking with other matchups, my experiences have shown zoo to be second worse to combo. I guess I haven't really tried hyper aggressive mulligan into vial. It is just that I've found that without waste/port AND vial I have a hard time keeping up: either I end up spending my lands on stopping them even if they have a threat on the field (I'm playing 23 land right now...and if I'm on the draw they often will have a threat, even if it is just a 2/2 nacatl), or my vial is just not fast enough to race their army and burn. Sorry if you took offense to my post maybe I'm just not playing the matchup quite right.

I'm currently not playing sting in Rg though I think I might go down to 2 SGC and 3 fanatic for x2...I did always love him.

And yes I still like fanatic, he always gets in there as such an underestimated damage dealer and there have been a lot of creature strategies in my meta as of late where has done well.

I'm personally running a mono-red version with stings and I have a pretty damn good win rate against Zoo. While I wouldn't suggest hyper-aggressive mulling to vial, but having a vial in your hand while running wastelands will often mean the game should be yours, no question. I have a roughly 70-ish% win rate against zoo, pre-board which falls to 60-ish% post board, but this pulls for the fact that Gobs vs Zoo is slightly favourable.

Shanghi Knights
08-19-2009, 01:20 AM
@ foulq

i see what you mean, i've had good success with it in days past but as far as todays standards go with gempalms in every goblin deck it certainly wouldn't get the job done.

i think of it as a suicide move thought you let your opponents goblins strike for near fatal then your attack while there tapped out and surprise them with a pyromanser and it "games" over

Nessaja
08-19-2009, 02:35 PM
I'm very interested in the R/w builds. Even though they're supposedly weaker I'm under the impression that they're played in a very aggro heavy meta. If Goblins T8 in places where Zoo runs rampant thanks to a combination of Incenerator and STP then that's interesting to me. And I recall once being very impressed when playing against such a goblins list, so I'm just going to test it. Not like that will hurt

Waikiki
08-19-2009, 02:41 PM
Im curious about the SB plan of all you RB players.

In the matchups:

Combo/Landstill/Thresh/Decks you expect plague.

What do you take out on the play/draw and what do you put in.
You can take my SB and work from there or post your own sb.

Amon Amarth
08-19-2009, 03:52 PM
My experience is frankly way different. Turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Waste will just win all too many games vs. them and Lavamancer shouldn't ever untap unless you cut Gempalms AND Fanatics (how dumb of you) thanks to the presence of Matrons.

Stuff like Lackey and Warchief can be used to draw fire (or just bury them) while Stingscourger buys time and Matron+Ringleader+SGC win it for you. Frankly, my record vs. Zoo is positive. Pride-Mage is an annoyance, but they rarely get to 3 untapped lands in play vs. you so they have to play it out for you to destroy. Of course, if you play Rbx relying on Weirding over Sting/Gempalm, may god help your soul.


But yeah, Vial is the key in the match-up; it ramps you up while your mana disruption keeps them playing fair, and often Wasteland can be used to just cripple their "big creatures" outside Goyf (which you just chump most of the time when you can't kill/bounce it).

You run more lands - the deck with more lands is traditionally the favorite in red mirror and that's how it's played out for me. Your superior mana production and ability to force them to kill creatures will just beat most of their draws (of course they have nuts sometimes and just kill you, but even then it depends on you not being able to assault their sparse resource, be it lands, creatures or stuff forcing burn) and they're usually arrogant enough not to pack more than 2-3 Pyroclasms/Volcanic Fallouts total. Also, vs those cards, Pyrokinesis and Wasteland can be used to easily wipe both sides of the board (which is, if you didn't guess, in your favor as your lategame is 1000 times better than theirs unless they have Cursed Scroll).

Oh, and Price of Progress sucks against the mono-R versions, yet another advantage. Though I can see how Rbg would be horrible here. It has basically none of the factors allowing mono-R to do well vs. Zoo. Another reason I'd run mono-R with Stings in the present metagame, btw.


QFT.

misassignment of role = game loss. You can't out-aggro them but you can play control pretty well. If you look at Zoo you can ascertain a couple things.

1. A land light mana base with rife with non-basics. Your Wastes and Ports combined with their 9 or 10 Fetches can lock them out of many for a few turns.

2. A notable lack of any card advantage engine. This means their lategame consists of topdecking while yours involves playing Demonic Tutor and Fact or Fiction.

Your goal is to make land drops every turn and get to the late game. Removal is golden in this matchup. Use your life total as a buffer but be wary of getting lower than 10 life. Depending on the game state they can burn you out very easily. Know when to switch roles from control to aggro and put them on the clock.

FoulQ
08-19-2009, 04:32 PM
Yes me and nobody else here is a big enough idiot to think goblins is the aggro deck in the matchup. I've say what I've said before, oftentimes it can be hard to stabilize against the deck unless you get your wastelands and ports working overtime. Otherwise all has really been said. I definitely agree with you though that a land drop every turn is important, just like any classic aggro vs control matchup. Otherwise Eldariel pretty much summed it up nicely.

I think I'd rather play Rbg or Rb over Rw, as you get warren weirding for fat like goyf/tombstalker (which is StP's role), and SB disenchant/related thing isn't really all that enticing. But I guess in zoo metagame if you insist on goblins, then Rw is probably a choice...I'll be interested to hear how it goes nessaja...

iamajellydonut
08-20-2009, 12:36 PM
Out of curiosity, what's the Vial for?

In Merfolk, they don't Ling rush the opponent, and they need to avoid hitting their own Standstill.

In Affinity, it's an artifact, so it works out nicely.

But what is it for in Goblins? It just seems like a waste. Most cards that it would be worthwhile to hit are 3cc+. Far too high to simply sit and wait for the counters to mass. And the "can't be countered" is far too overrated.

Also, why run Warchief now that Chieftain is out? Warchief was seldom ever run for its cost reducer. It was 90% all for the haste.

kicks_422
08-20-2009, 12:42 PM
Evertyhing you said just shows you don't have experience with this deck.

Valtrix
08-20-2009, 12:49 PM
I haven't played goblins in a long time, but I can still answer this one about vial. You are an incredibly mana hungry-deck, so vial helps out a great deal here to allow you to both play creatures regularly and vial them in. This lets you play much faster. It also helps you in face of mana denial(if you're splashing) or if you just don't draw a ton of lands. It is also incredibly useful because you have some of the best curves of decks to abuse vial. (Fanatic, then piledriver, then matron, then ringleader, then siege-gang.) You're always going to have a use for vial.

You say the best things are 3cc+? Well, that's the point. Vial lets you consistently play these things, and lets you do stupid things like vial matron > warchief/chieftan, swing. Multiples are even really good for you, because you can bump things up without fear of not being able to cheat other things into play. Especially when you're playing ringleader and have even more goblins to get into play, well...

Then there's minor uses, like shutting off standstill, sneaky blocking, EOT surprised, protection against counterbalance/spells, etc. Compare to lacky, which you're probably not questioning: they both let you cheat things into play. Granted vial is slower, but at the same time doesn't actually need to deal damage to still be useful. But, combined they provide for even more power, letting you have engines very frequently. I would say that of any deck out there, goblins probably gets the best/most needed use out of vial.

And about chieftan versus warchief, well, I think both should be run, but I have no idea what the numbers on them should be.

iamajellydonut
08-20-2009, 01:09 PM
I've personally been having a tiny bit of fun withe the following. Me an a couple of friends have begun semi-pooling and tinkering. I can't think of the exact deck off the top of my head, but here's the base.


4 * Frogtosser Banneret
4 * Goblin Chieftain
4 * Goblin Lackey
4 * Goblin Ringleader
4 * Mogg Fanatic
3? * Stingscourger

4 * Serum Visions


I can actually hardcast Ringleader with it on a regular basis without thinking twice about it. Serum Visions has proven to be fantasitc. I'm actually surprised if I don't get a turn1 Lackey.

Zinch
08-20-2009, 02:21 PM
I asume you're talking about Serum Powder.

I haven't tested it and I won't because it's not necessary for this deck to begin with a lackey. Even more, there a lot of matches that is far better to begin with a vial. Also is a dead card if you draw it anytime you don't want a mulligan.

Seriously, if you're saying vial is not good in this deck is that you haven't tried it, because (as Valtrix has said) in this deck shines more than in any other deck.

whienot
08-20-2009, 02:22 PM
Serum Visions or Serum Powder?

Edit: Ninja'd by Zinch.

true story
08-20-2009, 03:09 PM
Also, why run Warchief now that Chieftain is out? Warchief was seldom ever run for its cost reducer. It was 90% all for the haste.

Can I have some of whatever you're smoking? Warchiefs cost reduction is retardedly good. It let's you play things cheaper which leads to more threats played per turn which leads to winning faster. Same with Vial, free threats seems good to me. This deck is usually about pushing the tempo and smashing face, Warchief giving haste and reducing mana cost make him the best goblin ever. True story

Eldariel
08-20-2009, 06:13 PM
Due to Goblins' manacurve structure and efficient tutoring and draw, Vial basically reads:

"T: Add red mana equal to charge counters on Vial to your manapool."

In two turns, it gives you as much edge as a Sol Ring would. In three turns it has surpassed Sol Ring, to the maximum of 5 per turn. Sure, it's not quite as good - it can't be used for activated abilities nor lower cost cards - but that's the role in Goblins it plays.

Like Lackey, it's a busted 1-mana enabler that just happens to shit in the face of counters while at it. Goblins still make the best use of the card since in this deck, it can easily go up to 5 dropping a guy each turn (Lackey > Sting/Pile > Matron into Ringleader > Ringleader into SGC > SGC). It just produces more edge in this deck than any other. So that's why.


Oh, and a deck with 4 Wastes & 4 Ports makes pretty damn good use of a scaling mana producer.

Nessaja
08-24-2009, 10:24 PM
I think I'd rather play Rbg or Rb over Rw, as you get warren weirding for fat like goyf/tombstalker (which is StP's role), and SB disenchant/related thing isn't really all that enticing. But I guess in zoo metagame if you insist on goblins, then Rw is probably a choice...I'll be interested to hear how it goes nessaja...
Long story short I didn't like it. The thing I disliked the most was it not being tutorable off a Matron. It's infinitely better then any goblin available in a vacuum thoughm but that goes without saying I guess. I liked it when playing against Elves though, targetted spot removal matters here..

Currently running a heavy agressive list with a pretty smooth curve atleast:

1 Drops
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial

2 Drops
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Warren Weirding

3 Drops
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Incinerator

4 Drops
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Ringleader

5 Drops
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Landbase
4 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountains

Really liking the curve and the amount of creature removal I'm running in this. The frogtossers have been nice as well. I sincerely miss not running War Marshall though. Maybe he deserves a spot over Fanatics though Fanatics haven't been bad at all (and I like having 1 drops and its utility). Also, I have more then plenty of stuff to do at turn 2 already.

P.S.
08-24-2009, 10:43 PM
I'm not still real high on Rishadan Port in this deck. I'm also not real high on splashing a second color and giving your opponent Wasteland targets. I feel like goblins is at it's strongest when your deck is as tight as it can be, based on the metagame. Obviously that should be common sense.

I never liked Skirk Prospector. I also no longer run a lone Goblin King in the SB as Engineered Plague is all but extinct in the metagame. Mogg Fanatic, due to new combat rules it also replaceable in my opinion.

I still run all Snow-Covered Mountains so I can SB Glacial Crevasses. I also think Pyrokinesis is fantastic.

Outside of that, this deck for me has changed very little in the last three years. It's so tight already. Matron, Piledriver, Vial, Lackey, Warchief and Ringleader are all four-of's. I think Incinerator is too. Throw in land (I play 22) and you have very little slots left to tinker around with already. I still run 1 Siege-Gang Commander, 2 Goblin Sharpshooter, 1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and I go back-and-forth on 1 Goblin Pyromancer. That leaves me about five slots to tinker with. I used to run 1 Final Fortune but I'm not real high on it anymore in the meta.

Right now, I like Goblins because it doesn't have nearly the sea of hate that it used to. Just not having to play against Engineered Plagues and Chills all day helps.

dr4g0n
08-25-2009, 11:54 PM
I'm not still real high on Rishadan Port in this deck. I'm also not real high on splashing a second color and giving your opponent Wasteland targets. I feel like goblins is at it's strongest when your deck is as tight as it can be, based on the metagame. Obviously that should be common sense.

I'll agree on the splashing other colours, but Port is really very valuable in the deck. For me, it has been one of the major things that allow you to act under standstill to hold back Factory beatings.

Media314r8
08-26-2009, 12:33 AM
Im curious about the SB plan of all you RB players.

In the matchups:

Combo/Landstill/Thresh/Decks you expect plague.

What do you take out on the play/draw and what do you put in.
You can take my SB and work from there or post your own sb.

My SB for Rb gobos:
4 magus of the moon
4 relic of progenetis
3 mad auntie (to finish the set with the one main)
3 goblin tinkerer
1 goblin sharpshooter

Vs combo I don't expect plague, I expect to lose. If i happen to prowl an early squad or they have to mull excessively/they fizzle - yay team. You don't play goblins in a meta with lots of combo. You're a glass cannon, even with 8 cards SB this MU still wouldn't even be 50/50, so I don't waste slots on this MU.

Against any non-combo deck running black, I board ensure I have all eight lord effects and my three squads game two in the dark. (I run 4 chieftain, 1 mad auntie, 3 squad MD) It is worth noting that I have played through a double plague before and won via wort's fear and a recurring squad.

Vs landstill:
-4 wierding, +4 magus of the moon

Vs thresh (all but red splash)
(on the draw)
-4 lackey
-3 earwig squad
+4 magus of the moon
+3 mad auntie
(on the play)
-3 squad
-1 wort
-1 SGC
-1 lightning crafter
-1 incinerator
+4 magus of the moon
+3 mad auntie

Vs red splash thresh
(same as above, but relics in lieu of magus, as he can be burned and the red splash typically only run goose and goyf with a clique or two as wincons, so the relics hamper them more than non-red builds with coatl, predator, sower, or RWM as alternate beaters)

Vs landstill (if 3c or more IE packing deed, firespout, or other sweepers other than WoG)
-4 edict
-1 incinerator
-1 wort
+4 magus of the moon
+2 tinkerer/mad auntie/+1 sharpshooter, +1 auntie (depending on what I see G1 - EE/shackles/crucilbe with ruins or more traditional wrath/decree/moat)

Vs Uw landstill
-4 edict
-1 incinerator
+3 mad auntie
+1 sharpshooter
+1 tinkerer

In general, I tend to board out lackey often on the draw vs decks like zoo, thresh, fish, ect where my opponent will either mull into a T1/2 answer for lackey, or simply has an abundance of low CMC guys. I will often bring them back in game three provided I lost G1, and won G2. I have seen merfolk in rising numbers as of recently, one of the reasons for the 1 MD crafter and the SB sharpshooter. Edicts come out vs mutavaults, though I've had some close G1s where I got greedy and just hoped my opponent wouldn't see the play of activating a mutavault and just instinctively binning their LOA or whatever, which works about 50% of the time, once even at the Ann arbor mox event. I've been tutoring for crafter and squad much more recently, as many decks can't answer bolt a turn (championing matron for value) or run so few win conditions that a squad is nearly GG when prowled.

My $.02

Mantis
08-26-2009, 03:03 AM
Siding out Lackey is almost always wrong if you ask me. The opponent will have to trade some very strong spells in order to stop your cheapest creature, result: tempo gain. It doesn't matter if they manage to deal with it, as it will likely be a costly process for them to do so. I have considered siding out Lackey many times before but came to the conclusion that he's just so powerful for it's cost. You are also going to butcher your curve by siding him out and as a result fan some very slow hands.

GreenOne
08-26-2009, 01:18 PM
I remember someone tested Greater Gargadon in Goblins. How was the testing?

I just played Ichorid with SB Gargadon and the card is huge. It could do some nice tricks with goblins too, and especially with Scourger and War Marshall. And it's a one drop that works against goyf and plague.

Thoughts? Results?

Media314r8
08-26-2009, 01:34 PM
Siding out Lackey is almost always wrong if you ask me. The opponent will have to trade some very strong spells in order to stop your cheapest creature, result: tempo gain. It doesn't matter if they manage to deal with it, as it will likely be a costly process for them to do so. I have considered siding out Lackey many times before but came to the conclusion that he's just so powerful for it's cost. You are also going to butcher your curve by siding him out and as a result fan some very slow hands.

I find that on the draw against zoo decks (that play 4 grim, 4 ape, and 4 nacatl, along with 4 bolt, 3 lightning helix, 4 goyf, and 4 pridgemage, all of which don't hamper zoo's speed and invalidate a lackey or at least trade 1-for-1 with him when zoo's on the play) it's almost always correct to side out lackeys. Similarly, if a deck has ~12 or more ways of dealing with lackey on their turns 1-2, it is best to side him out on the draw, as you give up:

a 1/1 one drop that will be dead almost every time you play it turn one, and a horrible topdeck mid-late game unless you're allready winning,

for:

cards that will win a war of attrition in the midgame, and/or will be much more relevant every time they hit the board, while sometimes (magus of the moon, relic, tinkerer) entirely swinging the gamestate in your favor by heavily disrupting a linear part of your opponent's deck.

I'll take the card that will do more with greater frequency rather than the card with a small % chance of winning on the spot, IF you open with it, IF they don't have an answer in their first TWO turns, and IF you have a SGC/ringleader to go with it. SHOULD the likely happen and they answer your T1 lackey, you are often left with a 'greedy lackey hand' with no other plays before your turn 4 ringleader, ect. In most cases against decks with many answers to T1 lackey on the play, you'll be wishing that 1/1 was a creature with a more relevant impact on the gamestate.

Short list of DTB/Ws I would side out lacky against when I'm on the draw:
Zoo
Merfolk, especially UW, which have 28 cards to deal with T1 lackey on the play: swords, cursecatcher, mutavault, daze, force, LOA, adept
Tempo Thresh

The DTB/Ws I would keep lackey in against while I'm on the draw:
Goblins (w/o fanatics or skirk prospectors)
Landstill
ANT
Countertop

so 4/7 of the DTB/BTWs you would be right in keeping lackey in, but even then, it's certainly not 'almost always.' In a large tournament, you are more likely to see more tier 1.5 decks, as well as some homebrews, and going by the blind '(almost) always keep lackey in' mentality is rarely correct. As with most situations in Magic, there is rarely ever an 'always.'

EDIT:


I remember someone tested Greater Gargadon in Goblins. How was the testing?

I just played Ichorid with SB Gargadon and the card is huge. It could do some nice tricks with goblins too, and especially with Scourger and War Marshall. And it's a one drop that works against goyf and plague.

Thoughts? Results?

I've tested swords, goyf, jitte, and even a U splash in goblins, and unless a card straight hozes an archetype or a hampers a good portion of the field, it's rarely worth disrupting the tribal synergy. Gargadon is great in ichorid, (I played with him in extended Ichorid) as you can use it as another way to slow roll your opponents and turn your temporary ichorids into permanent zombies without having to risk your bridges putting ichorid in the red zone. He also energizes with the deck not needing lands once it gets going. (save for possibly DA flashback or coliseum, that extra city of brass or gemstone mine is great fodder for a huge guy.) He will usually resolve in ichorid, as your opponent will likely be saving his force for your inevitable dread return flashback, but sometimes has a swords kept in reserve for your big dumb oaf. Goblins has no recurring guys to keep feeding the gargadon while generating tokens, nor does it ever want to sac its lands, as it is very mana-hungry, and going all-in on something your opponent can see coming turns in advance is a great way to get blown out by a force, swords, or bounce spell. It is 'cute' with scourger and war marshal, but this isn't timespiral block. Blocking a jitte'ed guy and saccing to prevent counters is neat, but worse than tinkerers, tin streets, or even jittes in the board to adress that problem IMO. He may be okay in an 'all in' mono-red build with more war marshals and stingscourgers, where forces and swords are typically pointed at piledriver, but I doubt he is on the power level of goyf, and we play tribal sorceries and still testing has proven the green face-pounder to be not worth the slots.

I'll be testing heavily for the meandeck open this weekend, and will try out gargadons in place of (??? possibly relics, aunties, or tinekrers, but again, the appeal of cutting that kind of synergistic utility for a beatstick is unappealing.) I'll post some testing results after the weekend's over, as I don;t want my arguement entirely based on speculation and similar situations.

Tacosnape
08-26-2009, 02:21 PM
Merfolk, especially UW, which have 28 cards to deal with T1 lackey on the play: swords, cursecatcher, mutavault, daze, force, LOA, adept.

This is a very narrow argument to a very broad post, but that's me for you. I don't think I agree with cutting Lackey against Merfolk when you're on the draw. There's two things you need to factor in here.

1. A Lackey on the board forces them to slow their aggression. Goblins has a better long game, so slowing their aggression is good. The neat thing is that they don't really have all that many ways to get the Lackey off the board once he's there, meaning he's capable of being a threat in the midgame if you do something like Ringleadering into both a Siege-Gang and removal for the Merfolk they left back to block.

2. You have a ton of ways to deal with their answers, as follows.

2A - Swords to Plowshares: Nothing you can do, but a lot of Merfolk don't run white.
2B - Cursecatcher: Gempalm eats him, as can Weirding or, since you're postboard, Pyrokinesis.
2C - Mutavault: Wasteland, Pyrokinesis, etc.
2D - Daze: Stupid Daze. At least you slow them down a hair.
2E - Force of Will: You took out two cards for one red. Now your Vial/Matron/Ringleader might resolve.
2F - Lord of Atlantis: Weirding/Pyrokinesis, or Incinerator if you wait a bit.
2G - Silvergill Adept: Same as Cursecatcher.

Also, in defense of your point, the one you left out,

2H - Hydroblast: Oh well. At least it's not countering your Matrons/Ringleaders.

Eldariel
08-26-2009, 02:51 PM
I still wouldn't side Lackey out vs. Zoo. You say it's dead, but if they can't swing with Nacatl/Ape/Goyf for a turn, or throw a Bolt at it instead of your face/Warchief/SGC/generic multiblock, it's done its job. Also, Lackey dead in midgame?

In my experience, you can often use it to force opponent to play more defensively, or chain Matrons/Ringleaders/SGCs into play in multiples if they let it connect. I usually find Lackey to be a great one-mana lightning rod or "defense piece" in the match-up. And truly, it's better to trade R for R, than 2R for R.


My whole gameplan is to bring the game to midgame and dominate with my superior draw engine in that match-up. Lackey really helps with the "bring the game to midgame"-part. I'd be siding Piles and a Warbeef (3-mana lightning rod vs. 1-mana) out long before Lackey.

Tacosnape
08-26-2009, 03:05 PM
What do you even really side in against Zoo, for that matter? This is kind of a serious question. I don't test this matchup all that much because I don't have a real Zoo player in either my r/l or online test groups, and I hate the deck too much to play it myself. Plus, on the rare instances I line up a good Zoo opponent, I've tested Merfolk or Survival instead.

It seems to me that I'd rather have the Lackey in for the reasons Eldariel stated, but I'm curious to hear arguments on either side.

Media314r8
08-26-2009, 04:28 PM
What do you even really side in against Zoo, for that matter?

I side in relics on the draw if goyf is accompanied by lavamancer, (as he usually is) and often mad aunties through the vial can really skew combat, especially with a chieftain onboard.

ScatmanX
08-28-2009, 12:20 PM
Do you guys follow The Magic Show on Youtube?
Steve is spoiling a card there, and what we know so far is:

RR
Warren Instigator
Goblin Berserker
Mythic Rare

Double Strike

Next week the spoiler will be complete.
I´m quite exited for a good 2drop goblin! =)

tivadar
08-28-2009, 12:31 PM
Do you guys follow The Magic Show on Youtube?
Steve is spoiling a card there, and what we know so far is:

RR
Goblin Berserker
Mythic Rare

Double Strike

Next week the spoiler will be complete.
I´m quite exited for a good 2drop goblin! =)

The real question is what's his P/T. I mean, I can't imagine he's a 2/2, as that makes him extremely better than Boros, which is already a good card. So yeah, Gobbos don't have enough stat boosts to take real advantage of this guy. Unless they overpower him in general, he's probably not going to be that good in the deck (until you add jitte...)

EDIT: Once again, I CAN'T IMAGINE THEY'LL MAKE HIM A 2/2 (or even a 2/1 for that matter). Though the possibility of a landfall ability with him is interesting.

DragoFireheart
08-28-2009, 12:41 PM
The real question is what's his P/T. I mean, I can't imagine he's a 2/2, as that makes him extremely better than Boros, which is already a good card. So yeah, Gobbos don't have enough stat boosts to take real advantage over this guy. Unless the overpower him in general, he's probably not going to be that good in the deck (until you add jitte...)


2 for a 2/2 with double strike means he is, in a sense, a 4/2 for 2cmc. With our goblin lords running around, he is going to destroy Goyfs.

Tacosnape
08-28-2009, 12:52 PM
He's got to have another ability. 2 power here would be too strong. 1 is too weak to be worth mentioning. He -might- be a 2/1, but I'm guessing there's more to this guy, like being 1/1 with a +1/+1 counter Landfall ability.

Arsenal
08-28-2009, 02:21 PM
I'm crossing my fingers that it's a 2cc double strike 2/2. So buff just by himself.

Tacosnape
08-28-2009, 02:28 PM
I'm crossing my fingers that it's a 2cc double strike 2/2. So buff just by himself.

If this happens I'll just switch to Goyf Sligh or Zoo.

Arsenal
08-28-2009, 02:32 PM
That's a good point.

Nihil Credo
08-28-2009, 04:11 PM
If it doesn't have any other ability, perhaps it could be a 3/0. That's a bit Johnny-ish to be a Mythic Rare, but it could make sense since Goblin Chieftain is in Standard (and casual players won't rotate out King or Auntie).

Manhattan
08-28-2009, 04:16 PM
I'm really eager for this card. The fact that he plays a lot better with Chieftain than with Warchief might cause some rotation in the standard Goblin-core. I highly suspect this card to be a four off. Protection from Demons, Dragons and Lhurgoyfs = Baneslayer Goblin anyone?

By the way, who's Steve?

Mantis
08-28-2009, 06:39 PM
I'm probably the only one here not hoping for a ridiculously powerful Goblin as that will definately put the deck on the radar. That means our bad matchups might see more play making Goblins a worse choice actually.

Anyway, if this does turn out to be great it's going to be hard to keep Rishadan Port around and Goblin Warchief will lose a ton of it's power. So that would probably mean some revision of the manabase and maybe the adoption of Goblin Chieftain instead of Warchief, but I guess only time can tell.

ScatmanX
08-28-2009, 06:48 PM
I´m exited mostly because it is a freakin MYTHIC RARE!
It should be at least very good.

Also, there is enough space not used in the card (you can see on the video), so there must be another cool abilitie!

Ectoplasm
08-28-2009, 06:52 PM
It's not just a mythic rare.
It's a mythic rare that's not a planeswalker or some funky legend, it's a 2 mana goblin, which probably means that WotC decided to push it, it became good and got kicked up to mythic.

DragoFireheart
08-28-2009, 07:15 PM
It's not just a mythic rare.
It's a mythic rare that's not a planeswalker or some funky legend, it's a 2 mana goblin, which probably means that WotC decided to push it, it became good and got kicked up to mythic.


Which means that Goblins will be given a boost.

Which means Merfolk will see less play.

Which means Storm will see more play.

(Looks at DTB list).

Tacosnape
08-28-2009, 11:33 PM
If it doesn't have any other ability, perhaps it could be a 3/0. That's a bit Johnny-ish to be a Mythic Rare, but it could make sense since Goblin Chieftain is in Standard (and casual players won't rotate out King or Auntie).

That would be really neat from a design standpoint. It also wouldn't be nearly good enough to be a mythic rare, as the allure of it being a 2-drop would be gone in most formats. It'd be really neat that way if you led with an Aether Vial turn one, and got turn three Chieftain, Vial in thingymabobber, swang.

Pastorofmuppets
08-29-2009, 12:40 AM
Maybe it'll outclass tarmogoyf. =p
But I thought WoTC is going against tribal for a while. It might not just point at Goblins

Benie Bederios
08-29-2009, 05:55 AM
I'm not a Goblin player, but would a great stand alone goblin be good for this deck? I mean in that case it can be adopted by Goyf-Sligh and Zoo, wich makes those matchups worse. A nice themed Goblin would be great though, but if Pastorofmuppets is right, that would probably not be the case.

Benie

GreenOne
08-29-2009, 06:04 AM
I'm not a Goblin player, but would a great stand alone goblin be good for this deck? I mean in that case it can be adopted by Goyf-Sligh and Zoo, wich makes those matchups worse. A nice themed Goblin would be great though, but if Pastorofmuppets is right, that would probably not be the case.
It would be great anyway. Just think about it: if Goyf was a Goblin, wouldn't this deck be much MUCH better? Matron for Goyf, play a 4/5 haste for G.

A good standalone threat gains all the advantages here of being a goblin, making it a lot better in this deck than in any other.

IF this thing is going to get busted, I'd consider cutting ports for basics and maybe running 1/2 Caverns, alongside this guy, Chieftains and Warchiefs. I'd find those slots cutting things like War Marshals, Stingscourgers and maybe 1 SGC

RogueMTG
08-31-2009, 01:50 PM
The berserker part makes me think it'll just be Goblin Striker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48592) with double strike instead of first strike.

Though, "instigator" can imply a number of things, such as provoke or forced attacks. (Goblins attack each turn if able? >_>)

We'll see I guess.

tivadar
08-31-2009, 02:07 PM
...Just think about it: if Goyf was a Goblin...

Just a quick question. Can I have some of whatever you're smoking? Hehe, there's a reason goyf is type Luhrnevergonnausethiscreaturetypeagaingoyf. He'd just be beyond ridiculous in any tribal deck. Heck, merfolks run him already with splash and he's not a 'folk!

ScatmanX
08-31-2009, 02:54 PM
He was anwesering a question...

Mantis
09-01-2009, 12:43 PM
I finally got around testing Goblin Chieftain and its amazing. I replaced 3 Warchiefs and a Siege Gang with them. Chieftain + War Marshall = 6 power for 2 mana. I might even replace my maindeck Relics with something else, I might give the Caverns a shot now. On a different note, won a small 8 man tourney a few weeks ago taking home a Volcanic Island and thats the 3rd tourney on a row Goblins lead me to victory!

Mantis
09-01-2009, 12:44 PM
Double post, please delete.

Volt
09-01-2009, 03:52 PM
I finally got around testing Goblin Chieftain and its amazing. I replaced 3 Warchiefs and a Siege Gang with them. Chieftain + War Marshall = 6 power for 2 mana. I might even replace my maindeck Relics with something else, I might give the Caverns a shot now. On a different note, won a small 8 man tourney a few weeks ago taking home a Volcanic Island and thats the 3rd tourney on a row Goblins lead me to victory!

Chieftain is definitely good, but I disagree with cutting Warchiefs for them. For a while, I was running a 3/3/3 split of Warchief/Matron/Chieftain, because I couldn't figure out how to fit 4 of each into the deck, and I didn't want to overload the deck with 3-drops anyway. After playing several matches, I could tell that Warchief was still the most important one, so I switched to a 4/3/2 split. Much better, imo.

P.S.
09-01-2009, 03:58 PM
Personally, I think Goblin Warchief is better than Goblin Chieftain in everyway imaginable. Warchief also gives haste, so that part no longer matters. If the +1/+1 mattered that much, more people would have ran Goblin King. As it stands, it was just an answer for Engineered Plague or occasionally wanting to Mountainwalk.

Would I rather my Goblin Lackey and Goblin Sharpshooter become 2/2 or would I rather my Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron cost one less?

It's a no-brainer to me. Using AEther Vial to put out a Warchief with only two lands in play happened to me a lot. Then suddenly those two lands can do a lot more things.

FoulQ
09-01-2009, 04:27 PM
I generally agree with you P.S...However I find chieftain to be great in the aggro mirror. For instance, the goblins mirror, he just wins games hands down, and it becomes more about "who is playing more chieftains" than "who can draw more lands and win the land/vial war." Getting all those 3/3s and 2/2s makes a huge difference not only in combat but when your opponent brings in pyrokinesis sb.

He is also great against zoo for the sweepers postboard and being able to trade with nacatls, kill apes, etc. Same with merfolk obviously.

And those are three of the DTB so I think he deserves a place in the deck...if the meta warrants it. And there is definitely space, even just looking at my standard RG build:
4 Lackey, Matron, Piledriver, Ringleader, Warchief, Gempalm
3 Fanatic
2 SGC, Sting, Tin Street
23 Land, 4 Vial

Fanatic, Sting, Tin Street are all pretty easily cuttable, at least some numbers of them (and probably x1 piledriver as well), for x2 chieftain. At the very least I think he should be considered post sb for the creature mirror. My sb for RG is:
3 Grip
2 Needle
3 Kinesis
2 Chieftain (for the aggro match 4-5 alongside kinesis)
3-4 Relic
1-2 Meta spots

So chieftain can easily fit in the deck and helps against three DTB. (Well ok two DTB and one DTW but let's not nitpick)

P.S.
09-01-2009, 05:30 PM
I generally agree with you P.S...However I find chieftain to be great in the aggro mirror. For instance, the goblins mirror
You can just sideboard Pyrokinesis as well or bring in one Goblin King making all of your dudes Mountainwalk, making them unblockable. Both would be better, in my opinion, than running mainboard Chieftains.

Mantis
09-01-2009, 06:08 PM
I see your point but its a matter of priority, Warchief does some excellent things and Chieftain as well. you are probably not running War Marshall which makes Chieftain lose some of its strength, I do so the +1/+1 effect has priority for me. Also I run 4 Ports so colorless mana usually often isnt the limiting factor determining the number of Goblins that can be played during a turn, Warchief reducing colorless mana doesnt help me in those scenarios.

The comparison with Goblin King is extremely bad as haste is very relevant to Goblins while mountainwalk often means squat. The most important ability is haste anyway.

That said, I only tested about 6 matches so it might be a fluke.

@Volt: running less than 4 Matron is out of the question if you ask me, run 4 and 9 if you are comfortable with cheating.

FoulQ
09-01-2009, 07:18 PM
@ PS: Goblin King gives that bonus to all goblins, which is definitely win-more. If you notice I do side in 3 pyrokinesis in addition to 2 chieftain. I'm not disagreeing that you should not run 4 warchief as I do that as well (but I run no war marshal so chieftain isn't quite as good). If you both side in pyrokinesis (and I see lots of goblins running it) then you mathematically want to have an advantage if you are evenly skilled players (in a vaccuum but still). Chieftain gives that advantage in the goblins mirror ALONGSIDE pyrokinesis. And he helps vs. zoo and merfolk.

@Volt: I second Mantis, you have to play 4 matron. Behind ringleader, vial, wasteland, it is probably my favorite/best card in the deck.

Ectoplasm
09-01-2009, 07:48 PM
I personally think the incredible tempoboost granted by warchief makes it the single best card in the deck. Especially in the midgame a warchief that sticks around spells doom for your opponent, giving you those typical 'where the FUCK did all these dudes come from?' turns.

Pastorofmuppets
09-01-2009, 09:32 PM
I personally think the incredible tempoboost granted by warchief makes it the single best card in the deck. Especially in the midgame a warchief that sticks around spells doom for your opponent, giving you those typical 'where the FUCK did all these dudes come from?' turns.

SGC @ 4>>>>>SGC @ 5. Easy equation. With 4 Watelands and no fetches, 4 lands late game sounds about right.

Guy I Don't Know
09-01-2009, 10:04 PM
why is wort always played only as a one of? it seems insane getting back matron, ringleaders, warren weirdings etc.

FoulQ
09-01-2009, 10:27 PM
If you have an active wort, you've probably already won the game. Same as SGC. Except SGC can bring you back much much better than Wort. Not to say Wort is bad because I think it is pretty good in Rb. Also, not sure if you are aware but she is legendary.

sligh16
09-01-2009, 11:06 PM
If you have an active wort, you've probably already won the game. Same as SGC. Except SGC can bring you back much much better than Wort. Not to say Wort is bad because I think it is pretty good in Rb. Also, not sure if you are aware but she is legendary.

I cutted the SGC for a single lightning crafter. So, no more vials at 5, only 4, to play ringleadres, wort and crafter. Just saying Crafter is THE MAN against merfolks, alongside piledriver. It's more insane with a chieftain or a warchief in play to give him haste.

Other thing i did and i feel very strange about is including 3 Maze of ith :eek: .
Yes, Maze of Ith. I was tired of being beated by second turn dreadnoughts, tarmogoyfs, dreadstalkers and merfolks wearing jittes. They cant counter it, but is still going to be destroyed by a wasteland. But still, they won me ALOT of matches, saving me from impossible situations, buying me valious time to settle the late game control goblins, with the crafter, matron and the piledrivers to deliver the flashing blow. I'm posting my list later, because although i have tested it many many times, i cant still play a tournament with it (mostly because i don't have all the cards), so i dont think is a reliable list.

from Cairo
09-01-2009, 11:35 PM
Other thing i did and i feel very strange about is including 3 Maze of ith :eek: .
Yes, Maze of Ith. I was tired of being beated by second turn dreadnoughts, tarmogoyfs, dreadstalkers and merfolks wearing jittes. They cant counter it, but is still going to be destroyed by a wasteland. But still, they won me ALOT of matches, saving me from impossible situations, buying me valious time to settle the late game control goblins, with the crafter, matron and the piledrivers to deliver the flashing blow. I'm posting my list later, because although i have tested it many many times, i cant still play a tournament with it (mostly because i don't have all the cards), so i dont think is a reliable list.

I'm really not a fan of the idea of running Maze of Ith in Goblins. The deck is one of the most mana hungry in the format. I really don't think it can afford to be using land drops on lands that cannot produce mana, as it's looking to make it's first 4 land drops consistently and needs to put as much mana as possible toward curving out when it doesn't get an active Vial.

Some combination of Warren Weirding, Stingscourger, or Tin Street Hooligan (for Dreadnought) seem like the best MD ways to address large creatures. Sideboard Krosan Grips (for Dreadnought), Terminates, or Shreikmaws could also help.

sligh16
09-02-2009, 12:14 AM
I'm really not a fan of the idea of running Maze of Ith in Goblins. The deck is one of the most mana hungry in the format. I really don't think it can afford to be using land drops on lands that cannot produce mana, as it's looking to make it's first 4 land drops consistently and needs to put as much mana as possible toward curving out when it doesn't get an active Vial.

Some combination of Warren Weirding, Stingscourger, or Tin Street Hooligan (for Dreadnought) seem like the best MD ways to address large creatures. Sideboard Krosan Grips (for Dreadnought), Terminates, or Shreikmaws could also help.

I agree completely with the mana issues. I didn't cut any lands, i still run 22 (or 23). The cards that you mention are indeed usefull in the right situation, is just that in my case, they have all failed me when i needed them :cry:

The thing about weirding is that you can throw it to your opponent's tarmo or dreadnought, but they can FOW it, Spell snare it, countertop it or just sacrifice a factory, trinket mage or mongoose. Plus, you are pumping the goyf. Is something like Nietzsche saying you: What doesnt kill me, makes me stronger :rolleyes: .

Stingscourger is GREAT. i mean it, at first i didn't like anything about it, but when you vial it to do nice combat tricks (for example against merfolks bouncing a lord and blocking the other one) is NICE. With a lord and haste, is almost a GG (piledrivers beating). Or bouncing the tarmo and wasting the tropical, or the dreadnought, or Stalker, or clearing the path to your innocent lackey:tongue: . That's why i run 3 in MD.

Hooligan.... It just fails so much to the deck in my opinion. With vial it sucks. With warchief it sucks again... Tinkerer seems better to me.

For me, Maze of Ith is great because it can't be countered. That's it. Oh, and also, It doesn't cost any mana (a land drop, that in the testing is irrelevant because you lose one turn but you gain so much valuable time).

It's just my own experience about the deck's weaknesses and how can we efficiently handle them. In the mean time, Maze fits very well to me.

FoulQ
09-02-2009, 01:29 AM
I agree completely with the mana issues. I didn't cut any lands, i still run 22 (or 23). The cards that you mention are indeed usefull in the right situation, is just that in my case, they have all failed me when i needed them :cry:

The thing about weirding is that you can throw it to your opponent's tarmo or dreadnought, but they can FOW it, Spell snare it, countertop it or just sacrifice a factory, trinket mage or mongoose. Plus, you are pumping the goyf. Is something like Nietzsche saying you: What doesnt kill me, makes me stronger :rolleyes: .

Hooligan.... It just fails so much to the deck in my opinion. With vial it sucks. With warchief it sucks again... Tinkerer seems better to me.

For me, Maze of Ith is great because it can't be countered. That's it. Oh, and also, It doesn't cost any mana (a land drop, that in the testing is irrelevant because you lose one turn but you gain so much valuable time)

I don't think you quite understood his post. It is not the actual land count he is necessarily talking about, but hitting your land drops 1-4 consistently. As in lands that produce mana. ETA: well actually you address this later in your post and I will too.

I'll be honest, maze of ith is absolutely horribly terrible in this deck and I don't need to test it. If the opponent is attacking you with tombstalkers, dreadnoughts, goyf, then you have already lost. Decks with threats like these you are almost ALWAYS the aggro deck in the matchup, they should be on the defensive. The counterspell argument is irrelevant as you can counter any freaking spell except for gempalm. In addition is the point from cairo made which makes this the exact opposite type of deck I would want to run the card in.

Onto hooligan. For the last freaking time, he is good if your meta warrants. Having problems with merfolks carrying jittes? NOT maze of ith. TSH, and x3-4 gempalm please. "But sux with warchief lol" is NO because your warchief will be the first to die off a jitte. Plus tinkerer is not runnable as 1 or 2 of most of the time because he is a reactive solution while TSH is proactive. Maybe in monored but. And vial synergy, well yeah that's true. But honestly people, he has been TESTED BY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE AND HUNDREDS AGREE. He is playable if the meta warrants it. And it sounds like with merfolk AND goblins in your meta he is DEFINITELY maindeckable. (kills vial which is uber important, and jittes)

Time? Time is not what you should be looking for with the deck. Cmon, we are aggro in the matchups you highlighted Ith as a strength. Ith is control. And in the matchups where we assume the control role (such as zoo), missing a land drop like that is pretty devastating.You have so many bomb spells that counters should not be that big of a problem. Just place more of a priority on vial if you are really getting flustered by them.

It seems like your play style with goblins is fundamentally flawed. Why do you think we are playing 23 lands in the deck in the first place, sometimes 24? This is way higher than most legacy decks. It is because we have to hit all our land drops for our deck's engine to be effective. Which is why we run cards like vial. and warchief. and lackey. To reduce/cheat cost.

Anybody who cuts SGC in a standard build (read: not builds like media, and its starting to sound like not yours either) is wrong. Sorry. ETA: What I meant to say is, anybody who is cutting all SGC from builds that are NOT running x3 or x4 chieftain is building their deck questionably.

GreenOne
09-02-2009, 02:56 AM
Anybody who cuts SGC in a standard build (read: not builds like media, and its starting to sound like not yours either) is wrong. Sorry.
Cutting some number of SGC might be the right move. SGC has always been the late game "oh, shit" for our opponent, a card that gives the deck inevitability.
Time passed by, and new goblins were printed. Right now I'd prefer to be sure about landing a lord on turn 3, rather than having a SGC on turn 5. I'd still run 1 to have a tutorable one to give us reach and still dominate the late game, but running more than one might become overkill, cause Goblins is indeed a deck with already a huge late game, thanks to its draw engine.

Mantis
09-02-2009, 06:24 AM
@GreenOne: What is your opinion about the Warchief vs Chieftain debate?

@Maze of ith: my knee jerk reaction is to say terrible, however it might be really interesting. I will grant them some testing time and report back what I think of them as I have a hard time telling.

GreenOne
09-02-2009, 06:34 AM
@GreenOne: What is your opinion about the Warchief vs Chieftain debate?
I'd max the number of Warchiefs before Chieftain, but this also depends on how's the new goblin like.

Right now we know that he's RR, so likely not getting any discount on mana. It also has double strike, so the +1/+1 seems juicy. If this thing end up being an automatic 4of, then I'll reconsider Warchief and Rishadan Port's roles in the deck. Maybe we can safely going down to 3 or maybe 2 chiefs, less seems unlikely. Port, on the other hand, might be definetly worse with circa 12 RR spells in the deck.

EDIT: in the end we will be better off playing both, like I'm doing now with a list with:
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander

Media314r8
09-02-2009, 02:44 PM
Maze of ith is an interesting concept, but it undoubtedly pulls goblins into the controlling midgame, as you cannot run it in place of lands, you have to replace sting, incinerator, ect with it, as it serves as quasi-removal/'fuck your jitte/huge dude.' Maze of ith can generally only come down turn two after a turn one vial, or on turn three after a turn two frogtosser. (i think a maze build would have to be Rb, as it has more late-game inevitability in addition to earwig squad) I'm not sure such a controlling game is what goblins wants to be doing, as you can just play landstill or CBthresh if you want to be a midgame aggro-control or a late game deck. MazeGoblins would have the alternate plan of T1 lackey, win I suppose. I will test this as well and report back.

Also, second on Lightning crafter. That guy is absolutely the bees' knees.

P.S.
09-02-2009, 04:11 PM
If you're trying to race an opposing aggro deck via Maze of Ith, wouldn't you just lose to them drawing a Wasteland? Seems like Meekstone would be better as it doesn't shut down any of your dudes and will shut down Tarmogoyf, Wild Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary, Woolly Thoctar, Rhox War Monk, Nimble Mongoose, Werebear, etc.

I still like Crevasses:
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/Drag0nthrax/GlacialCrevasses.jpg

ScatmanX
09-02-2009, 04:15 PM
@P.S.: mind posting your lands and SB?

P.S.
09-02-2009, 04:21 PM
@P.S.: mind posting your lands and SB?

SPELLS (5)
4 Aether Vial
1 Final Fortune

CREATURES (33)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector

LANDS (22)
18 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Goblin King
4 Pyroblast
2 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Glacial Crevasses
2 Tormod's Crypt

I'm back-and-forth on the Goblin King. Sometimes he's a Stingscourger instead. The match-ups I care about are: ANT, CB, Zoo, Thresh, Dredge, Goblins.

Biggest glaring omission is probably not running any mainboard Stingscourger. The only card I don't really like too much is Skirk Prospector and I like the ability he gives me better against creatureless or creature-light decks. Plus he's a sac outlet if I have to win via Sharpshooter against a Moat or something. I've always liked the 1x Final Fortune in the deck. Even ran it at Grand Prix Philly a couple years back. If my opponent sees it, I.E. I cast it or it's revealed with a Ringleader, I side it out. They'll play around it once they see it anyway.

from Cairo
09-03-2009, 01:11 AM
Cutting some number of SGC might be the right move. SGC has always been the late game "oh, shit" for our opponent, a card that gives the deck inevitability.
Time passed by, and new goblins were printed. Right now I'd prefer to be sure about landing a lord on turn 3, rather than having a SGC on turn 5. I'd still run 1 to have a tutorable one to give us reach and still dominate the late game, but running more than one might become overkill, cause Goblins is indeed a deck with already a huge late game, thanks to its draw engine.

While I'm totally loving Chieftain, and have always liked Warchief, I feel like Siege Gang Commander has incredible synergy with both; not to mention the Lackey -> SGC = GG scenario that still comes up from time to time. I'm still running 3, as I really like it's mid-game ability to turn the tides, which is something that a top decked Lord can't always do with out some board position.

I'm currently running 23 land with Gemstone Caverns too though, so my manabase is built to support a bit heavier curve.

GreenOne
09-03-2009, 03:56 AM
While I'm totally loving Chieftain, and have always liked Warchief, I feel like Siege Gang Commander has incredible synergy with both; not to mention the Lackey -> SGC = GG scenario that still comes up from time to time. I'm still running 3, as I really like it's mid-game ability to turn the tides, which is something that a top decked Lord can't always do with out some board position.

I'm currently running 23 land with Gemstone Caverns too though, so my manabase is built to support a bit heavier curve.
The lackey -> SGC indeed comes up from time to time, and indeed comes more often if you're running 3 SGC. Fact is, when lackey is connecting you're likely to win, even if you put a 3-4cc drop into play. Even the goldfish speed is not decreased much if you drop a Chieftain instead of a SGC. (SGC+ lackey swings for 6, Lackey+Chieftain swings for 4, but your creatures also have haste, so you're likely swing with another dude too for 6 or 7 total).
If lackey connects on turn 3, you can also matron for SGC before attacking.

SGC does a lot of great things for the deck: it's a bomb during a stall, gives the deck reach, has an awesome sinergy with both the chiefs, gempalm, piledriver, stingscourger and Marshall. It's also a threat on its own.
Unfortunately he doesn't do those things until late turns, when our game is already quite good, being often win more, and often uncastable in games where you really need it.

I'm playing with 23 lands too (right now 4 Wastes, 3 Ports, but likely cutting the 3rd port for a Mountain). How often do you find yourself with an uncastable SGC, hoping it to be something else? 3 seems indeed a high number, as I've always played with 2 in the last two years.

EDIT: playing with 4 chieftains also make you laugh of E.Plague, freeing some number of SB slots.

Zinch
09-03-2009, 04:39 PM
The lackey -> SGC indeed comes up from time to time, and indeed comes more often if you're running 3 SGC. Fact is, when lackey is connecting you're likely to win, even if you put a 3-4cc drop into play. Even the goldfish speed is not decreased much if you drop a Chieftain instead of a SGC. (SGC+ lackey swings for 6, Lackey+Chieftain swings for 4, but your creatures also have haste, so you're likely swing with another dude too for 6 or 7 total).
If lackey connects on turn 3, you can also matron for SGC before attacking.

SGC does a lot of great things for the deck: it's a bomb during a stall, gives the deck reach, has an awesome sinergy with both the chiefs, gempalm, piledriver, stingscourger and Marshall. It's also a threat on its own.
Unfortunately he doesn't do those things until late turns, when our game is already quite good, being often win more, and often uncastable in games where you really need it.

I'm playing with 23 lands too (right now 4 Wastes, 3 Ports, but likely cutting the 3rd port for a Mountain). How often do you find yourself with an uncastable SGC, hoping it to be something else? 3 seems indeed a high number, as I've always played with 2 in the last two years.

EDIT: playing with 4 chieftains also make you laugh of E.Plague, freeing some number of SB slots.

I don't agree with you GreenOne... If the Goblin deck shines in one thing is on beeing a very agressive deck with a very good lategame plan.
If you cut SGC for chieftains you are diluting that lategame plan, because you are lowing the number of lategame bombs, and also you are cutting a CA engine, because with the cost of 1 card, you get 4 goblins (for gempalm, piledriver or simple reach).

Yo say How often do you find yourself with an uncastable SGC, hoping it to be something else? . Well... almost never! I play a mono red deck with 23 lands and 3 SGC and always have something to do with the mana until I reach 5 lands (or 4 lands with a warchief). With 4 ringleaders and 4 matrons there's always something to do with the mana. Also, if your ringleader or your matron gets countered, what would you like to have in hand: a chieftain or a SGC?

I've played with less than 3 SGC (with only 1 for a long time), and since I tested with 3 I never looked back. With less SGC I lose much more games in wich I connected with the Lackey.

Just my 2 cents.

Jaynel
09-04-2009, 12:09 AM
Warren Instigator
RR
Mythic
Creature - Goblin Berserker
Double Strike
Whenever Warren Instigator deals damage to an opponent, you may put a Goblin creature card from your hand onto the battlefield.
1/1

DIDN'T SEE THIS COMING HOLY SHIT

Pastorofmuppets
09-04-2009, 12:16 AM
Warren Instigator
RR
Mythic
Creature - Goblin Berserker
Double Strike
Whenever Warren Instigator deals damage to an opponent, you may put a Goblin creature card from your hand onto the battlefield.
1/1

DIDN'T SEE THIS COMING HOLY SHIT

Did I just shit myself? Yes.
Will it be used? Probably not.

P.S.
09-04-2009, 12:17 AM
I don't like it.

It's a Lackey that's a turn slower and can be Spell Snared. The Double Strike doesn't even matter. In Legacy, it's just a bad Lackey. I'm sure it'll be good in Standard though.

I mean, you could get him out and pump him with stuff like Chieftain or King...but then you're playing a worse Goblin deck.

I will not be putting him in Legacy Goblins. All that speculation...for a bad Lackey.

chokin
09-04-2009, 12:22 AM
Not awful, but I'm skeptical as to whether or not I'd play it.

FoulQ
09-04-2009, 12:28 AM
Anyone remember the very old builds with chrome mox?

That's the only way I can see this card being implemented.

You could cut vial, add ancient tomb or something and play chalice. Or you could go for a mass of lackies. Either way it sounds not that great.

Jeff Kruchkow
09-04-2009, 12:29 AM
Double Strike. He drops 2 goblins. How is that not amazing?

P.S.
09-04-2009, 12:30 AM
Anyone remember the very old builds with chrome mox?

That's the only way I can see this card being implemented.

Even then, it doesn't have haste, so it wouldn't matter. Like, if you go first turn this dude on the draw, you're likely staring at a Tarmogoyf or something already on their next turn. Just ugh.

Maybe that's a bad example, but you get the point.

MMogg
09-04-2009, 12:35 AM
Double Strike. He drops 2 goblins. How is that not amazing?

Assuming he gets his damage through and assuming you have two more goblins to drop.

Jeff Kruchkow
09-04-2009, 12:36 AM
Even then, it doesn't have haste, so it wouldn't matter. Like, if you go first turn this dude on the draw, you're likely staring at a Tarmogoyf or something already on their next turn. Just ugh.

Maybe that's a bad example, but you get the point.

True coming down turn 2 sucks. However, there are so many decks right now that dont really get going all that fast and this guy can make for turn 4 kills like no ones business. Plus in the gemstone caverns builds hes straight crazy. And if they do have goyf, that why this deck splashes black.

Jaynel
09-04-2009, 12:37 AM
What about lists with Gemstone Caverns?

P.S.
09-04-2009, 12:38 AM
The deck shouldn't splash black...

...and does he really get to drop two goblins with one attack? That doesn't make much sense, double strike or not.

chokin
09-04-2009, 12:45 AM
The deck shouldn't splash black...

...and does he really get to drop two goblins with one attack? That doesn't make much sense, double strike or not.

deals first strike damage and then normal damage. 2 triggers.

Jeff Kruchkow
09-04-2009, 12:47 AM
The deck shouldn't splash black...

...and does he really get to drop two goblins with one attack? That doesn't make much sense, double strike or not.

yeah, he does. which is why he is so sick. if he connects with matron in hand its auto siege gang. sick.