[DTB] Vial Goblins

[P.S.]

Guess that's why he's Mythic.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Badlands
10 [MR] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Skirk Prospector
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [TKX] Goblin

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

So this is what Ive been testing for the last 30 mins since the spoiler came out. The random token is the new guy. I realize that losing ringleader loses the deck alot of late game, but the fact is with testing this so far, i kill on turn 4 or 5 almost every game without fail. this by large helps with the fact that the deck hates sweepers and heck, you can always board for against decks packing wrath and such. Its thoroughly unoptimized by just throwing it out there for speculation on the Instigator.

[FoulQ]

I think you are going to need to play either gemstone caverns and/or chrome mox if you plan on maximizing warren instigator, as well as 8 total lackies for impact. And I'm also starting to think plenty of turn2 ways to get rid of blockers or potential lackey problems is important like weirding. And a little nitpicking about the list is that you are playing warchief + frogtosser, but than chieftain, warchief, and instigator, which is kind of anti synergistic. but who cares, it is thrown together, I understand that.

Honestly, I was hoping for a 1/1 double striking mini ringleader. Like, just the top two or something. Mmm that would have been sexy.

[Otter]

Isn't the Ringleader one of the most abusive cards you can drop with the Instigator? Seems counterproductive to take him out for it.

[chokin]

Seriously. Drop that Banneret or Skirk Prospector shit before you nix Ringleader.

[Nessaja]

Yeah dropping ringleader is definitly not the way to go.

The guy puts up some interesting design questions. Like, I'm not sure if playing 4 will be the right thing to do. If you're playing this card you should also be playing a lot of bombs to abuse the card. Very intersting card though.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Seriously. Drop that Banneret or Skirk Prospector shit before you nix Ringleader.

Fair enough. The reason I had banneret and prospector was because
1)turn 2 warchief means turn 3 sick shit. and
2) more cost reduction makes me happy.

changes -4 banneret -2 prospector
+4 ringleader +2 lands
and i need room for weirdings i suspose.

[HAVE HEART]

This guy seems fucking shitty in every format, unless Zendikar has some Goblins, then Block Constructed Goblins might be okay.

The only way this guy is sick is if the Goblins player also has Warren's Weirding in hand. Almost every deck has a two-drop, so the opposing player is obviously going to block the Instigator if Weirding is not played. Goblin Lackey is awesome because there are close to zero one-drops, especially in the current metagame. Zoo and tribal are the only decks actually able to block Lackey on the draw. If Instigator had Haste, then it is probable that it would see play. As it stands now, it is a shitty 1/1.

[Eseph]

This guy seems fucking shitty in every format, unless Zendikar has some Goblins, then Block Constructed Goblins might be okay.

The only way this guy is sick is if the Goblins player also has Warren's Weirding in hand. Almost every deck has a two-drop, so the opposing player is obviously going to block the Instigator if Weirding is not played. Goblin Lackey is awesome because there are close to zero one-drops, especially in the current metagame. Zoo and tribal are the only decks actually able to block Lackey on the draw. If Instigator had Haste, then it is probable that it would see play. As it stands now, it is a shitty 1/1.

Or, you know, Stingscourger/Gempalm Incinerator, I hear they're pretty decent at helping lackeys get through...

I'm actually pretty happy with this guy, as a 2-3 of. But then again I'm still running FCG with C-Mox in the main. Lackey is what wins games before turn 4, and having more of them will never be a bad thing.

[Volt]

Regarding Instigator... Meh.

[HAVE HEART]

Or, you know, Stingscourger/Gempalm Incinerator, I hear they're pretty decent at helping lackeys get through...

I'm actually pretty happy with this guy, as a 2-3 of. But then again I'm still running FCG with C-Mox in the main. Lackey is what wins games before turn 4, and having more of them will never be a bad thing.

Gempalm Incinerator does not deal with most two-drops, unless the Goblins player also played a one-drop (Lackey/Vial). Stingscourger is a card I forgot about, but it seems relatively weak if the Goblins player does not play a Lackey or Instigator.

Also, the reason Goblins is a competitive deck is because it can win past turn four with plays like Matron off the top into Ringleader, refill the Goblins player's hand. Winning on/before turn four is nice, but not necessary to win.

[Nessaja]

What I like about instigator is that you can drop a Matron/Ringleader, tutor/draw cards in the first strike step and then use one of the cards drawn in the normal combat step.

I think this'll help most in Landstill MU's.

[P.S.]

I will never listen to anyone that cuts Ringleader from Goblins. Credibility out the window.

[Alecthar]

I think this is one of those situations that calls for testing. I for one am pretty excited about Lackeys 5-8, even if they're less efficient. On the other hand, they double drop Goblins (ridiculously good with Ringleader/Matron). I know I've made the mistake of drawing conclusions about a card without testing and been proven wrong (Tooth and Nail in Standard being just one example).

[GreenOne]

Ok, on the new guy:
HOLY SHIT!

Here's my brainstorm:
- It's another great surprise out of vial.
- It's another great surprise in combination with the 8 haste enablers we can play.
- He's quite good in the beating department, beating for 2, and costing only 2 mana. With Chieftain he beats for 4!
- He's going to trump blockers that have thoughtness 1, like Confidant, Lackey, Cursecatcher, soldier tokens.
- As lackey already do, he's going to keep goyf on the defensive. The opponent is going to be continually on the threat of you removing the lonely blocker, attack with this guy, drop matron->SGC and SGC, and winning the game. In this, he might work as well as War Marshall: marhall essentially fogs for 3 turns, while this guy keeps the goyf on the defensive until the opponent finds another goyf or removal.
- It can be played turn 1 with the help of Caverns.
- RR on turn 2 needs reworking the manabase.

In the end, it's a card that might completely change the goblin matchups, especially against creature-light decks (aggrocontrol and control). The opponent is going to play a lot more on the defensive, and our plan of taking the match in the lategame becomes less difficult to execute.
This guy has the potential of being really good. I'll test this:

// Lands
17 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2/3 [PLC] Stingscourger
2/3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3/4 Warren instigator
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

About the list:
- 3 caverns seems too much, and is going to be hard to get that RR on the play. I'll try with 2 and drop to 1 if unsatisfied.
- 3 or 4 Instigator. 8 lackeys might be too much: they won't always connect.
- 2 or 3 Scourger: with more lackeys, removal becomes more appealing.
- 2 or 3 Chieftains: Haste enablers are good with lackeys, and the +1/+1 is indeed nice with Double Strike. It's also a nice lackey drop.

[Maveric78f]

I would play 0 wastelands and 20- lands in such a build. Probably more stingscourgers and chieftains. Something like:

// Lands 20
18 [7E] Mountain (1)
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures 37
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren instigator

// Spells 4
4 [DS] AEther Vial

There would be 1 card to remove. I can't figure out which one for the moment. Maybe 1 mountain, or 1 among these gobs: Gempalm Incinerator, Warren instigator, Goblin Chieftain and Stingscourger

I'd like also to investigate the tutorable green men toolbox with:
Lightning Crafter
Goblin Sharpshooter
Sparksmith

They all have creature removal abilities.

[Avatara]

If we have more "Lackeys" wouldn't it be logical to drop the number of Warchiefs and replace them with Chieftains? The cost reduction becomes less relevant because we have more ways to cheat goblins into play. This also increases our control match-ups a lot. When a Instigator connects every Matron in your hand is turned into a Siege-Gang Commander. We might even be able to drop the number of Gempalms in favor of more Stingscourgers.

I might also be relevant to note that the Instigator doesn't have to deal combat damage... I dunno if it's possible to exploit that fact in Legacy Goblins.

Maveric78f I guess we had the same idea at the same moment! :)

[Ectoplasm]

How brutal would goblin pyromancer off of his first strike, swing for massive in the 2nd strike step be?

[GreenOne]

How brutal would goblin pyromancer off of his first strike, swing for massive in the 2nd strike step be?
*masturbates furiously*

[MMogg]

How brutal would goblin pyromancer off of his first strike, swing for massive in the 2nd strike step be?

That would have to be a dream hand/play:

Turn 1: Lackey
Turn 2: Lackey --> SGC, cast Instigator
Turn 3: ATTACK! (1st strike damage --> Pyromancer)

Likelihood? 10%? :cry:

[GreenOne]

Likelihood? 10%? :cry:
A bit less than 1% :cry:

[Manhattan]

The sky is falling!
No, really, while this guy might not be just as good as lackey he is still really good. And the important thing is he makes Goblins more consistently fast. Not every deck has the turn 2 Goyf out there. Especially the combo decks are essentially out of range for Goblins and this guy can make that matchup a little more interesting. (not that this matchup is favourable now but the comboplayer is going to sweat a lot more often.)
The most important thing is that he fits the curve perfectly. Piledriver was the only permanent four-off in the two-dropp-slots. Having another good two-dropp is oil for the machine.

[GreenOne]

I just had a couple matches with Istigator against Piceli playing Quinn.

I start with lackey, he swords.
I play Istigator. He doesn't have a second sword. I drop a Ringleader (revealing ringleader) and Ringleader (revealing Warchief+Pile). I drop a Chieftain.

He has to Wrath in order to not take at least 12 next turn (double strike+lord effect).
In my turn I drop Warchief+pile and continue swinging. The next turn I win with a matron.

Turn 5 win through a sword and a wrath.
This guy is indeed good.

[Nessaja]

You kind of had a godhand there (revealing ringleader of ringleader)

But yeah, he's obviously good. I'm going to play him in R/b I like Weirdings and it's an easy splash anyway. Thinking atleast 3 chieftains maindecked.

[GreenOne]

You kind of had a godhand there (revealing ringleader of ringleader)
Ringleader revealing a single goblin is not that huge, and could also reveal matron for almost the same effect.
I also had matron in hand if I didn't find any juicy dude.

[Maveric78f]

I think that it's useless to prove that he's good when it connects and you have 1 mother or 1 ringleader in hand. It's obvious. The problem is: does it happen often enough to justify playing a 1/1 vanilla that kills only 1 turn after connecting.

In the tutorable slot Kiki-Jiki may be really awesome: mother that fetches Kiki that duplicates mother that fetches anyting else. Imagine also duplicating Instigator to put into play 4 free goblins. That would be completely nuts.

As somebody said earlier, maybe warchief is not as good as it used to be?

[GreenOne]

I think that it's useless to prove that he's good when it connects and you have 1 mother or 1 ringleader in hand. It's obvious. The problem is: does it happen often enough to justify playing a 1/1 vanilla that kills only 1 turn after connecting.

As somebody said earlier, maybe warchief is not as good as it used to be?
It's not 1/1, but more like 2/1, considered that it deals 2 damage attacking. And a bit more with Chieftain in the equation.

The guy is not only good with Matron or Leader, but with SGC, and even double chieftain or warchief+chieftain.

It's also much, MUCH better than the other 2 drops contending this slot.
Would you play Instigator or War Marshall? Instigator or the 4th copy of Stingscourger?

It's a card more that the opponent must deal with, or lose savage amounts of tempo/card advantage. And it's also adds a lot of surprise effect with vial and the haste guys. ANd the possibility of being even better than lackey with Caverns in the deck.

[stereosound]

Warren instigator:

RR
1/1 doublestrike
When it deals damage to an opponent, put a goblin from your hand into play

I know the 2 spot is already a bit clogged, but we have to make room for this guy. Between him and lackey, things might go bonkers.

[Skeggi]

I think that it's useless to prove that he's good when it connects and you have 1 mother or 1 ringleader in hand. It's obvious. The problem is: does it happen often enough to justify playing a 1/1 vanilla that kills only 1 turn after connecting.
With Matron in hand it's far from a vanilla, you could tutor anything you need and drop it into play. That seems pretty awesome to me.

@stereosound: do you actually read the thread?

[Maveric78f]

With Matron in hand it's far from a vanilla, you could tutor anything you need and drop it into play. That seems pretty awesome to me.

@stereosound: do you actually read the thread?
@Skeggi: do you actually read the text you quote?

[Tacosnape]

So backing off of the Warren Awesomegator for a minute,

Mindbreak Trap
:2::u::u:
Instant - Trap
If an opponent cast three or more spells this turn, you may pay :0: rather than pay Mindbreak Trap's mana cost.
Exile any number of target spells.

Is this our new sideboard anti-combo card? It's not perfect, but it does a fair amount. Is this better than Chalice of the Void, or is it better than just letting combo crush you?

[GreenOne]

I remain of the idea that combo will still crush us.
But if you want to waste slots for the Combo matchup, this is indeed a strong choice, maybe backed up by cards that might be useful in other matchups, like Reb or Chalice.

[Manhattan]

It doesn't interfere with the gameplan of tapping out every turn and putting creatures into play and you don't even have to take a single turn to make it work, so yes, this is definetly better than most cards Goblins has as an option.

[kabal]

Goblin Guide (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94741&stc=1&d=1252079245) - r
Creature - Goblin Scout Rare
Haste
Whenever Goblin Guide attacks, defending player reveals the top card of his or her library. If it's a land card, that player puts it into his or her hand.
2/2

[from Cairo]

So backing off of the Warren Awesomegator for a minute,

Mindbreak Trap
:2::u::u:
Instant - Trap
If an opponent cast three or more spells this turn, you may pay :0: rather than pay Mindbreak Trap's mana cost.
Exile any number of target spells.

Is this our new sideboard anti-combo card? It's not perfect, but it does a fair amount. Is this better than Chalice of the Void, or is it better than just letting combo crush you?


I'm not sure I'd run it, but the fact that it is being printed could still be relevant to our combo game. If off color agro decks are packing this SB, then combo may start waiting for Chant protection against agro rather than just goldfishing us. So even the fact that combo players might expect the card game 2-3 will likely be good for us.

Sort of similar to Ichorid, if they're expecting hate artifacts and board in Needle/Grudge, or are expecting Leyline and board in Ray of Revelation; even if the opposing deck isn't playing those cards they still gain some edge from the fact that the cards exist and are feared.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Dear Goblins Players-

We already really hate you. And based on what I've seen from the Zendikar previews so far, I can only imagine that we're going to start hating you more.

Sincerely,
-The Merfolk Players :wink:

p.s. Looks like your easiest match-up is only becoming easier for y'all.

[lorddotm]

That would have to be a dream hand/play:

Turn 1: Lackey
Turn 2: Lackey --> SGC, cast Instigator
Turn 3: ATTACK! (1st strike damage --> Pyromancer)

Likelihood? 10%? :cry:

Poor dude whos playing against that... he got no creatures on T3...

[chokin]

Poor dude whos playing against that... he got no creatures on T3...

Funniest post I've seen in a long time. Thank you.

Possible reasons for a deck not having answers:
A combo deck that hasn't assembled all of the pieces.
A MUC deck that you went first against and didn't have Force of Will.
43 Lands and they didn't find a Factory or Maze.
Solidarity.

[ScatmanX]

Poor dude whos playing against that... he got no creatures on T3...

Yeah. I bet that if he had a blocker, he was going to win the game...

On topic: I Think he Warren Instigator wil be awesome. I´ll surely try him in a mox version.

[Eldariel]

Goblin Guide (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94741&stc=1&d=1252079245) - r
Creature - Goblin Scout Rare
Haste
Whenever Goblin Guide attacks, defending player reveals the top card of his or her library. If it's a land card, that player puts it into his or her hand.
2/2

Seems surprisingly good. The drawback is annoying, but it's actually strong enough to be played as a pure beater-type 1-drop. I mean, it's a hasty 2/2; that means it's dealt 8 damage by turn 4.

When they're flooding, it becomes worse, but lots of Legacy-decks cheat on lands anyways so the drawback should only do anything one-third of turns and given that Gobs usually uses land denial as a tempo tool, it just might work.


Frankly, I'm more excited by this card than by the new Lackey. Would give us a second decent 1-drop. The Instigator isn't bad either; if it connects, it means almost an instant SGC with Ring/Matron often transforming into SGCs too. It could give us additional tools against counter-based decks and another must-block creature (which allows you to force them to hold back or remove your guy, and at some point they just can't block all your piles, Lackeys, Instigators and company; and yeah, even midgame, extra SGCs on the board are something opponent usually doesn't want to deal with).

I'm just not sure there's room for Instigator in the deck, and additional X/1s are kinda annoying as they make us more vulnerable to Plagues. Another reason I sorta like the Guide, to be honest.

[rsaunder]

Seems surprisingly good. The drawback is annoying, but it's actually strong enough to be played as a pure beater-type 1-drop. I mean, it's a hasty 2/2; that means it's dealt 8 damage by turn 4.

When they're flooding, it becomes worse, but lots of Legacy-decks cheat on lands anyways so the drawback should only do anything one-third of turns and given that Gobs usually uses land denial as a tempo tool, it just might work.So that makes the curve looks something like:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Vial
4 Lackey

4 Piledriver
4 new doublestrike lackey

That looks really solid for early game, which is something vial goblins has needed recently.

[Volt]

Yeah, Goblin Guide looks pretty good. The drawback isn't even necessarily a drawback most of the time.

I'm going to have to be convinced about Instigator, though...

[Ectoplasm]

Seems surprisingly good. The drawback is annoying, but it's actually strong enough to be played as a pure beater-type 1-drop. I mean, it's a hasty 2/2; that means it's dealt 8 damage by turn 4.

When they're flooding, it becomes worse, but lots of Legacy-decks cheat on lands anyways so the drawback should only do anything one-third of turns and given that Gobs usually uses land denial as a tempo tool, it just might work.


Frankly, I'm more excited by this card than by the new Lackey. Would give us a second decent 1-drop. The Instigator isn't bad either; if it connects, it means almost an instant SGC with Ring/Matron often transforming into SGCs too. It could give us additional tools against counter-based decks and another must-block creature (which allows you to force them to hold back or remove your guy, and at some point they just can't block all your piles, Lackeys, Instigators and company; and yeah, even midgame, extra SGCs on the board are something opponent usually doesn't want to deal with).

I'm just not sure there's room for Instigator in the deck, and additional X/1s are kinda annoying as they make us more vulnerable to Plagues. Another reason I sorta like the Guide, to be honest.

So why not play him with a fuckton of lords? Merfolk can do it, and our lords are good too. Something like 4x chieftain, 4x mad auntie and 1x king should be cool.
You could mix in some magus of the moon action, if you like (even though it's not needed) or just randomly fuck over decks like TT, zoo and loam, while flooding the board with utility guys that grab other guys but are still 3/3 or 4/4 with haste, double strike and/or throw guys onto the table for free. Mix in some of those tokengenerators we all know and love (MWM, SGC), savage :cool:

[FoulQ]

One other minor thing guide can help do is help you figure out what your opponent is playing, depending on the reveal. Just something to take note of.

I see him as part of lord goblins, I don't know how effective a vanilla 2/2 is. We'll see.

[Jayzonious]

I just typed this up as a concept including the Warren Instigator. I'd like to revise it, hoping I could get some insight.

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Plateau
7x Mountain
3x Chrome Mox

4x Goblin Lackey
1x Frenzied Goblin

4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Warren Instigator

4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Chieftain

4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Pyromancer

2x Siege-Gang Commander

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial

[Jak]

So what are people planning on running with the two new dudes?

24 Lands

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Guide

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Ringleader

4 Siege Gang Commander

Obviously the numbers need to be trimmed, but is this close?

[Manhattan]

Well obviously Goblin Guide and Wasteland should probably never go in the same deck. I'm not yet convinced by Goblin Guide. He appears an ok creature for the format but Goblins right now is just so packed with playables that it's hard to pass judgement. If Guide proves worthwhile then the manadenial-route of this deck is going to be history. After that it's pure speed and cardadvantage. While Goblins is appearing to assemble the missing pieces to that strategy I'm still not sold on the idea.

[johanessen]

I don't like giving c.a. to opponent, but who knows. I can give it a try but I don't think it would take the cut here. (talking about 2/2 hasted)

[Jak]

Are we back to the thread title, "Is Card Advantage better than Speed?" I think that was it, but instead of Card Advantage, you have Mana Denial.

[Jayzonious]

I don't like the idea of goblin guide helping the opponent dig for answers faster. For a 2/2 it doesn't seem worth it. I think establishing Lackey or Aether Vial turn one is far superior. Do we need 12 1 drops?

[Jak]

I don't like the idea of goblin guide helping the opponent dig for answers faster. For a 2/2 it doesn't seem worth it. I think establishing Lackey or Aether Vial turn one is far superior. Do we need 12 1 drops?

Yes? I don't know if it is needed, but Goblins has been packing 12 one drops for a while. Since Mogg got hosed, people have been looking for other options. Mogg is still playable of course, but pretty meh. Goblin Guide is ridiculously explosive and doesn't help them dig for answers at all, but it does give them lands if they have one on top.

I think going more aggressive could help the deck out. It will be interesting to see what Goblins does in the future,

[Manhattan]

Are we back to the thread title, "Is Card Advantage better than Speed?" I think that was it, but instead of Card Advantage, you have Mana Denial.

None of that debate matters unless you know how much speed you are trading for how much cardadvantage or mana denial. And those variables are exactly what should be tried to be asessed when discussing potential newcomers.

[Amon Amarth]

IDK I don't really like either.

GG obviously isn't very synergistic with Wastes/Ports and is positively terrible when your opponent has a Top in play. I don't think it fits into the deck as is.

I'd also rather MWM than Instigator. WI seems like a turn too slow. War-Marshall will at least always give you an extra guy and he blocks really well.

[chokin]

Goblins denial package and Goblin Guide don't really mix well. Assuming a deck has 20 lands in a 60 card deck, you'll give them a free draw 1/3 of the connects. The good news is that they can still only play one land a turn (barring decks with Exploration), so you could clog their hand some, but it's still thinning their deck.

So yeah, that's my $.02. You're giving up a little control to take on an aggro role. My question is, would placing in a few lords be better?

[P.S.]

Next thing you know, people are going to put in Goblin Grenade and Fireblast too!

A new card comes out and people go crazy.

[Manhattan]

Goblins denial package and Goblin Guide don't really mix well. Assuming a deck has 20 lands in a 60 card deck, you'll give them a free draw 1/3 of the connects. The good news is that they can still only play one land a turn (barring decks with Exploration), so you could clog their hand some, but it's still thinning their deck.

So yeah, that's my $.02. You're giving up a little control to take on an aggro role. My question is, would placing in a few lords be better?

A) just a minor remark but he doesn't have to connect, just attack
B) and more importantly he thinns the top of their deck

[Ectoplasm]

I really don't like the guide, and on a quick note he *does* thin your opponent's deck and he *does* dig for answers, since you're removing a possible dead draw (a land) and giving him something else, answers which are not going to be wasted on a 2/2 beater that doesn't lackey, remove guys, fetch guys or anything at all.
If I played landstill and faced down this dude it wouldn't even cross my mind to waste any removal on him, since he's helping me make landdrops and find business, all of that for a 2/2 beater.

I can see him being moderately succesful in standard RDW but not alot more.

[Jayzonious]

he *does* dig for answers, since you're removing a possible dead draw (a land) and giving him something else, answers which are not going to be wasted on a 2/2 beater that doesn't lackey, remove guys, fetch guys or anything at all

Thanks for explaining this. I didn't think I had to in my previous post, but obviously the person who said he doesn't dig for answers didn't understand the concept.

Goblin Guide is horrible.

NEXT

[Mystical_Jackass]

Heh.. "thanks for letting me get to Deed faster" :P

lol, I'd pay the two life myself if I could get an extra land drop every other turn :) There is absolutely no way around the fact this card is a bad idea, poor CA

Hmmm... I almost forgot; One more thing.....

Next thing you know, people are going to put in Goblin Grenade and Fireblast too!
http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/images/cards/visions/fireblast.jpg
http://www.kelz0r.dk/magic/images//img2/fe/fe62.jpg

They're BACK MUHAHAHAHAAh ROFL!!!

[Manhattan]

The land is only put into their hand so don't get ahead of yourselves. Still not the best card goblins could've wished for.

[Eldariel]

My experience is that Gobs often uses the mana denial as tempo tools rather than to lock people out; to that end, Goblin Guide has little to no drawback. Having a 2/2 Hasty guy beat the opponent down while tapping them down or w/e doesn't seem too bad to be honest. I know I'm gonna test him for sure, in a build with 4 Ports and 4 Wastes.

Annoying drawback, but frankly, after a point the extra lands stop mattering while hasty 2/2s for 1 are still pretty good. On counterbalance, the ability also gives you some info such as what the opp is going to draw, what's on top for Counterbalance and so on. Not amazing vs. Top, but then again, if they want to be utilizing it with Top, they'll need to be tying together their mana on the early turns while getting beat up; not sure it's a trade-off worth it for them.

[GreenOne]

Between the staples, the new lackey, Chieftain and some form of removal, where are you finding the slots to fit in a vanilla 2/2 with haste??

[Eldariel]

Between the staples, the new lackey, Chieftain and some form of removal, where are you finding the slots to fit in a vanilla 2/2 with haste??

I'm probably trying the 2/2 Haste before the new Lackey; I feel the curve needs more help at 1CC than 2CC.

[GreenOne]

I'm probably trying the 2/2 Haste before the new Lackey; I feel the curve needs more help at 1CC than 2CC.
I'm gonna say it frankly. The 2/2 haste is a bad card in goblin. It's more a Sligh/RDW card.
I would probably not play it, even without the "draw a land" clause.
Goblin is a consistent deck that wants either the game to go into the midgame to get the draw engine going and win through card advantage, or to cheat threats into play and win cheating on mana. A 2/2 haste is not going to help either plan. Even fanatic is better, being able to take away confidant and other critters, and act like a tempo tool to fastforward into the middle game.
Every card in the deck has some utility*: It's either a strong tempo tool, or a CA machine. This thing is sure as hell not a CA machine. He's just a vanilla beater, that means he have to end the game in a short time to be effective, and 10 turns is not a short time. Piledriver is just better at doing this, being awesome in the merfolk matchup, and suddenly surprising the opponent.
People can handle Nacatl in this format. I bet noone is going to get scared at a 2/2, even in the first turn.
It might be decent if you have a fast hand and drop it in the first turn. In any other case, you'll curse draing it, while drawing a lackey is always scary, as long as you have cards in hand.
Haste is also redundant with 4-8 chiefs.


*some utility for us, not for the opponent like this guy.

[nateo]

Instigator is very interesting. That kind of power makes it worth jumping through a hoop or two to get him into play. How about something like this?

4 x aether vial
4 x Lackey
4 x instigator
1 x piledriver
4 x stingscourger
3 x warchief
4 x matron
3 x chieftan
4 x ringleader
1 x SGC
4 x reckless charge
4 x simian spirit guide

15 x mountains
1 x gemstone caverns
4 x wasteland

I know reckless charge isn't a spectacular card in general, but it gives you a chance to do some very broken thinks with lackey and instigator. Spirit guide and caverns give you a possibility of turn 1 instigator.

[Jayzonious]

I see a problem with cutting 3 Piledrivers for Stingscourgers or Reckless Charge. Piledriver is our ridiculously efficient damage dealer. We still have to get the opponent to zero life to win the game. Piledriver is one of our biggest threats, and it has the potential to make that happen very quickly.

Simian Spirit Guide seems like an interesting idea. I still feel that Chrome Mox is superior to that and Gemstone Caverns. I like the idea of having the extra first turn mana but still think Chrome Mox does a better job than either of these cards. Goblins have the draw engines to make up for the card disadvantage. Drawing multiple Chrome Mox or drawing it late game sucks, so I think three is the correct number to run.

As for Reckless Charge having tricks with Lackey, I don't really see any collaboration between those two cards.

[Media314r8]

GG really is absolutely terrabad. The 'well, he only gives them lands 1/3 of the time argument is super-loose, like saying bob only flips lands 1/3 of the time, as most times bob is accompanied by cantrips and/or top. I'm not saying that your opponent will always have cantrips and/or tops, but hell even zoo is running 2x sylvan library as deck manipulation, thus he often gives your opponent an effect similar to having a bob, and while I do respect his ability to deal more damage than a lightning bolt by the SECOND turn, he's really just not worth it.

WI is worth at least testing a chrome mox gemstone caverns list for, more explosive power in addition to having moxen/caverns to protect your normal lackys/vials on the draw from daze is also attractive.

Speculation, speculation, speculation...

[Mantis]

@Ectoplasm: Very good post, you hit the nail on the head.

Here is my analysis of both Goblin Guide and Warren Instigator.

Goblin Guide looks terrible on the surface, but the other options are not leagues better so it's still a reasonable option (Fanatic, Relic, Caverns). To have no additional 1 CC spell isn't an option for me, so I am going to consider him.

That all said, considering both Top and Brainstorm are both seeing a lot of play in the format the drawback is pretty severe. He also decrease the chances of opposing manascrew. It's pretty hard to tell, right now I'm leaning not playing it but I am going to test it for a bit to get a more definite answer.

Warren Instigator is a bizarre card, he basically says: when you connect with a Ringleader, Matron or Siege Gang on hand you win. His synergy with Chieftain is obvious and excites me quite a bit. But the danger of cool things is lurking and we must be aware of this; he is very weak when you are behind on boardposition and he is very easy to deal with.The manacost is awful, he probably requires to cut Ports and those are great when you are out of gas thus making your position when being behind even worse.
My verdict without testing: He doesn't shore up any of our weaknesses and is likely winmore.

Please note that people have been very wrong about cards before, I have heard people say Goyf wasn't that good or that Gifts was terrible in Vintage.

[Manhattan]

I think Ports are already losing ground against the RR of Instigator and the fact that you'll be wanting to tap out on turn two more often.

[Nessaja]

I'm going to have to disagree with everyone wanting to include Goblin Guide. If I'm wrong after testing I'll gladly admit that but this card looks really bad. Part of this is dependand on metagame though, Goblin Guide spells "I'm going to kill you turn 4" and that is not in line with the rest of the deck. Casting Goblin Guide after turn 1 is bad and it's a horrible topdeck too. I'd only include him against combo decks.

Warren Instigator, on the other hand, is nice. And while he won't be the best creature in the deck he's definitly up there. Goblins strong point is that every creature you play either is a threat or leads to a threat if unanswered effectively forcing your opponent to play STP.dec to keep up with your endless stream of threats. Warren Instigator is amazing in this context.

The suggestion to make Goblins lords.dec is intrigueing but are you willing to cut Goblin Ringleader? What about Goblin Matron or Siege Gang Commander? It is possible though, stopping your curve at 3 mana means you play less lands and you can probably get away with it, I doubt I'd feel comfortable with a less diverse curve and no mainboard outs again Moat (SGC). Lords.dec should be viable but you'd probably need to get rid of a lot of the things good about Goblins.

So I think playing less lands would be the only viable choice in making that work with 4 Ringleaders (Wort?) and SGC as the only cards above 3 mana can you play 20 lands? (4 Wasteland) I'm not so sure.

Note I think it's a pretty good idea to play more lords in goblins, with the hate against tribal increasing.

[Wargoos]

Lords.dec should be viable but you'd probably need to get rid of a lot of the things good about Goblins.

This.
The thing I love about goblins most is the possibility of exploding in the opponents face out of nowhere. As if you are just waiting hidden behind a bush for a guy to come along so you can jump out and jizzle your deck in his face, running away cheering.
I mean seriously this deck is so well built together. The synergies between lakey/vial + matron/ringleader is just soo good and gamewinning that it's already a must play. The Instigator even supports this in my opinion for him having just to connect ONCE to be able to win the game. Even if he costs 1 more you totally should play this sucker, because you have the vial. It enables him, and makes him still playable.
Also it is a blessing that he costs 2 mana, since you can split him now with the piledriver number (which is one of the weakest gobs the deck plays). I would certainly go for something like 2-3 while playing 3-3 lord constellation.
Even if it now is possible to go for Goblinlord.dec, I just wouldn't do it, because you would throw away the things that made goblin the deck.

So why change a running system?
Why not adapt it, if you are given the opportunity?

[nateo]

I see a problem with cutting 3 Piledrivers for Stingscourgers or Reckless Charge. Piledriver is our ridiculously efficient damage dealer. We still have to get the opponent to zero life to win the game. Piledriver is one of our biggest threats, and it has the potential to make that happen very quickly.

Simian Spirit Guide seems like an interesting idea. I still feel that Chrome Mox is superior to that and Gemstone Caverns. I like the idea of having the extra first turn mana but still think Chrome Mox does a better job than either of these cards. Goblins have the draw engines to make up for the card disadvantage. Drawing multiple Chrome Mox or drawing it late game sucks, so I think three is the correct number to run.

As for Reckless Charge having tricks with Lackey, I don't really see any collaboration between those two cards.


Piledriver is an efficient damage source (as long as he has company). However, I think a single connection with WI will probably result in more damage than a connection with Piledriver. So I've basically replaced piledriver with WI. Also, stingscourger allows lackey and WI to connect, I think playing 4 is probably correct.
The reason I went with SSG over Mox is that Mox requires 2 cards for the mana boost you get from a single guide. Yes I know that mox continues to be useful after the initial turn it is played however with instigator a single connection puts you quite a ways ahead so a single turn mana boost is quite important as is having cards in hand to play when he connects.

Reckless charge allows for turn one connections with Lackey as well as a small chance of turn one instigator connections (don't tell me that isn't sexy). It also allows you to go turn 1 vial, turn two vial in lackey and charge. Attacking with lackey is more powerful the earlier it can happen, this is why charge and lackey work together.

I'm not saying that I'm right on all of this, but I like the discussion of these alternatives.

[Mantis]

Other card with potention from Zendikar:

Mindbreak Trap: an efficient answer to combo, could replace or be played in addition to Chalice in the sideboard.

Probably not playable, but Quest for the Gravelord could be a sideboard option to answer decks with Plague or tons of removal especially alongside War Marshall.

Goblin Ruinblaster is a very realistic sideboard option against decks like Landstill. There is a chance they are going to replace the Anarchies in my sideboard but probably not since I need the Anarchies against Enchantress which runs way too many basics for Ruinblaster to be effective.

[Manhattan]

Replacing any Goblin from the core team is madness. With Instigator the new team should be:
4 Vial
4 Lackey

4 Piledriver
4 Instigator

4 Warchief
4 Matron

4 Ringleader

20 Lands

That leaves 12 costumizable slots

Contenders are:

Goblin Chieftain
Siege-Gang Commander
Warren Weirding
Gempalm Incinerator
Stingscourger
additional Lands

Plus some one-offs

[Joe_C]

I havent played goblins in some time and have tossed my mono red list back together. Comments are welcome.

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Aether Vial
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger

SB:
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Relic of Progentitus
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Anarchy

There is alot of landstill normally in my meta, so the anarchy is there to handle moat/humility schennanigans along with Elspeth.

[GreenOne]

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Aether Vial
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger

Hey, my 2 cents about your list.
The lifeloss and the stifle issue are really unnecessary, when you can just play basics. The thinning effect is really too little for you to benefit. Just believe me, we did the math.
Fanatics are quite a weird choice in the current meta. I guess that if your meta is full of Confidants, Noble Hierarcs, etc, they might be worth it. If it's only for smoothing out the curve, I'd not play the full set, 2 are probably enough. Stingscourger on the other hand is a great tempo tool to bring you into the midgame, where your draw engine starts to work and you gain advantage against those pesky goyfs. You might want to play Mogg War Marshall if you don't want to play more Scourgers, they buy time too.

[Joe_C]

Hey, my 2 cents about your list.
The lifeloss and the stifle issue are really unnecessary, when you can just play basics. The thinning effect is really too little for you to benefit. Just believe me, we did the math.
Fanatics are quite a weird choice in the current meta. I guess that if your meta is full of Confidants, Noble Hierarcs, etc, they might be worth it. If it's only for smoothing out the curve, I'd not play the full set, 2 are probably enough. Stingscourger on the other hand is a great tempo tool to bring you into the midgame, where your draw engine starts to work and you gain advantage against those pesky goyfs. You might want to play Mogg War Marshall if you don't want to play more Scourgers, they buy time too.


I had considered dropping the fetches, since I am playing mono red. Fanatic isnt as shitty as everyone thinks, it can still chump and deal 1 to the opponent. And zoo/sligh are growing in popularity around me so they are still good against lavamancer and can assist in naililng a creature when you cycle incinerator. I may -1 fanatic +1 stingscourger. What are the thoughts on maindeck artifact hate nowadays? Is tinkerer needed at all?

[GreenOne]

I had considered dropping the fetches, since I am playing mono red. Fanatic isnt as shitty as everyone thinks, it can still chump and deal 1 to the opponent. And zoo/sligh are growing in popularity around me so they are still good against lavamancer and can assist in naililng a creature when you cycle incinerator. I may -1 fanatic +1 stingscourger. What are the thoughts on maindeck artifact hate nowadays? Is tinkerer needed at all?
Tinkerer is usually good only if you play it in multiples, due to the lack of haste. Even with Chieftain in the deck i finally decided to throw it out the MD.
I'd play this list:
// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
6 open slots

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

And fill the open slots with War Marshalls, Chieftains and Fanatics.

Consider that, after a bit of testing, Instigator is probably joining the team when it's out.

[Media314r8]

Goblin Ruinblaster is a very realistic sideboard option against decks like Landstill. There is a chance they are going to replace the Anarchies in my sideboard but probably not since I need the Anarchies against Enchantress which runs way too many basics for Ruinblaster to be effective.

See: Goblin Settler. I played this as a one-of in my SB for a while when tabernacle was more prevalent in my metagame. IMO Settler >>> Ruinblaster, as he can hit basics and doesn't suck though the vial, while only requiring one red mana, the extra power doesn't make up for the many downsides.

[Bane of the Living]

See: Goblin Settler. I played this as a one-of in my SB for a while when tabernacle was more prevalent in my metagame. IMO Settler >>> Ruinblaster, as he can hit basics and doesn't suck though the vial, while only requiring one red mana, the extra power doesn't make up for the many downsides.

Just to throw the topic for a loop.. What does everyone think of Mindbreak Trap. I know it's specific to storm combo but still. Will the pure existence of the card simply deem storm combo unplayable anyways?

[Cyrus]

Don't underestimate storm combo. They have 8 chants + cantrips + discard.

[Bane of the Living]

Don't underestimate storm combo. They have 8 chants + cantrips + discard.

But how badley would they really want to keep duress against you. Especially now that you have Lacky + Instegator rather than Vial, which I assume would be sideboarded out.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Just to throw the topic for a loop.. What does everyone think of Mindbreak Trap. I know it's specific to storm combo but still. Will the pure existence of the card simply deem storm combo unplayable anyways?

No, not really. Storm combo packs enough disruption, from Thoughtseize, to Orim's Chant, to Pact of Negation, that they can still go off through anti-storm tactics.

I'm not saying Mindbreak Trap won't help, or that it isn't good against them. Honestly, I think it's a much better sideboard option than Chalice for Goblins and similar synergistic aggro decks against storm decks, because it doesn't require you to limit your early development against them by wasting mana on stuff like Chalice.

Basically though, Storm combo tends to spank Goblins, from what I understand. And I don't think Mindbreak Trap is going to singlehandedly change any of that, although it is a good tool for Gobbos and many other decks.

[Cyrus]

But how badley would they really want to keep duress against you. Especially now that you have Lacky + Instegator rather than Vial, which I assume would be sideboarded out.

Let's assume the combo player is completely unprepared to face Mindbreak Trap. G1 he'll probably win. G2 he may side out some of his protection, and you Mindbreak Trap him. G3 he'll be aware of the trap and side that protection back in, and that's it.

[Nessaja]

What about you putting enough pressure on him, forcing him to go off unprotected?

[Bane of the Living]

What about you putting enough pressure on him, forcing him to go off unprotected?

Thank you. Lets not forget your applying the standard goblin clock. Your not exactly leaving mana open to play Mindbreak, or even breaking a fetchland into a Volcanic to let your Stifle out of the bag.

[Cyrus]

What about you putting enough pressure on him, forcing him to go off unprotected?

Can we really apply that much pressure? To do so I believe we'd have to run gemstone caverns/chrome mox/simian spirit guide. And that'd fuck our consistency up.

[Hanni]

Against ANT, yes. Early damage causes them to fizzle more frequently when using AN, and even though they have alternate means of victory, it forces them to dig for that out. That often leads to unprotected combo'ing.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, does anyone have a guess as to just how high the price is going to go up on Warren Instigator? I'm guessing this sucker starts out around $15 and continues to go up for a while...

Which kinda sucks, because unless Merfolk gets some genuine goodies from this set, I think I need a new deck. And I'd been secretly contemplating switching to the dark side and running the Gobbos, but money is sort of a factor, so I'm not so sure this is my best option if I want to put together something decent for less than $200.

[P.S.]

He can only be played in goblin decks. I assume he'll be the same price as like Ajani Goldmane. Like a $13 card.

[Media314r8]

He can only be played in goblin decks. I assume he'll be the same price as like Ajani Goldmane. Like a $13 card.

So many things wrong here: Ajani was a foil pre-release card and printed as a rare. I doubt a mythic will be the prerelease or release card. Ajani is played in T2, extended, legacy, and CASUAL. WI ~may~ find a home in extended and/or T2, but will probably just end up as a four-of in every legacy goblins deck. I don't necessarily disagree with your price assesment, just the logic you used to come to that conclusion.

IMO, if you draft, you should probably take advantage of all the newer players that will open and rare draft this card, but wonder why it's good/a mythic. Trade them a bad planeswalker or a dragon or something for it and you'll both be much happier.

[P.S.]

So many things wrong here: Ajani was a foil pre-release card and printed as a rare. I doubt a mythic will be the prerelease or release card. Ajani is played in T2, extended, legacy, and CASUAL. WI ~may~ find a home in extended and/or T2, but will probably just end up as a four-of in every legacy goblins deck. I don't necessarily disagree with your price assesment, just the logic you used to come to that conclusion.

OK fine, how about Garruk instead? Still about a $13 card and sees a lot less play.

Basically, I don't think it'll get to Baneslayer price.

[Manhattan]

Probably more like Piledriver in the long run. There are two sides to it. When he comes out there will both be a lot of hype aswell as a lot of nay-sayers. Wether they'll just cancel each other out or one overhangs will have to be seen.

[Volt]

I'm definitely pre-ordering 4x Goblin Guide while they're relatively cheap. I think it's being underrated by most people.

Mindbreak Trap is a very good card, but it probably won't see much play simply because storm combo doesn't see much play. It will come way down in price.

[Nessaja]

Oe thing you shouldn't do is wait for the next set to be released because they chances of it becoming T2 playable increases with every set.

Can we really apply that much pressure? To do so I believe we'd have to run gemstone caverns/chrome mox/simian spirit guide. And that'd fuck our consistency up.
First turn lackey with wastelands is a good start atleast.

[arebennian]

Look, I know this totally goes against the goblin synergy but if one was to include Instigator.....

There are now 12 creatures in the deck that would love to be either provided with boost+trample or just trample.
Is that a great enough critical mass to run sub-optimal spells such as fury charm or Rancor???

[Ectoplasm]

I'd run frenzied goblin before I'd even consider running crap like Rancor :D

[*Magus*]

Hi I'm new in this forum and i'm Italian so forgive me if my english is bad.
I have a goblin deck and i'm asking myself if Warren Instigator is really necessary.
Advantages are:
a) goblin lackey effect *2
b) double strike +chieftain =very good
c) it draws the attention of your opponents, allowing all the other goblins to take damage
Disadvantages
a) it costs RR
b) draw WI in middle late game is awful (like lackey)

I will test WI in 4x but I think that 2/3x is the right number...

[morgan_coke]

I know this might sound kind of heretical at first, but with the printing of the enemy fetchlands, is it time to look at dropping the Wastelands from Goblins?

Since every deck can now reliably fetch for basics off of its main color, it seems like the value of wasteland has decreased significantly.

Those slots, combined with the enemy fetchlands seem like a way for goblins to increase their splash options without sacrificing consistency.

The splash options for goblins now available are:

White: Chant/Silence/Abeyance/Swords/Path/Disenchant
Green: Krosan Grip
Blue: Stifle/Mindbreak Trap
Black: Weirding/Wort/Therapy/Thoughtseize/Duress

You could even theoretically run a 5c goblins list if you dropped wastelands, with the manabase looking something like:

2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
2x U/R fetchland
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Plateau
1x Taiga
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
6x Mountain

(22 Lands)

I don't think 5c gobs is necessarily a good idea because you'd be putting in so many non-goblins that you'd destroy the value of ringleader and the synergy of the decks goblin on goblin action, but lets face it, the deck has been stagnating for awhile now, and the results its putting up are going down and down. Fundamentally altering the way the deck is built may be necessary.

Dropping the LD plan also allows the use of cards like Goblin Guide and Path to Exile without worrying about the way their drawback screws up the decks main form of disruption.

Looking at goblins' bad matchups, it seems like the things the deck is most in need of are ways to kill tarmogoyf and ways to disrupt combo decks. White and black seem like the best two splashes to accomplish these goals, since both colors provide numerous (though sadly non-goblin) ways to kill tarmogoyf, and disrupt combo, with white having plenty of ways to destroy Engineered Plague as well. (hi, I'm Ronom Unicorn, the Engineered Plague hate-bear)

Just some thoughts I've had about goblins since the new cards in the set have begun being spoiled.

[sligh16]

Looking at goblins' bad matchups, it seems like the things the deck is most in need of are ways to kill tarmogoyf and ways to disrupt combo decks. White and black seem like the best two splashes to accomplish these goals, since both colors provide numerous (though sadly non-goblin) ways to kill tarmogoyf, and disrupt combo, with white having plenty of ways to destroy Engineered Plague as well. (hi, I'm Ronom Unicorn, the Engineered Plague hate-bear)

Just some thoughts I've had about goblins since the new cards in the set have begun being spoiled.

Tarmogoyf is a pain in the ass, but pyrokinesis main helps a lot, specially when you are not running warren weirdings main to pump it (3/4 can be killed by the kinesis). It also helps a lot the new instigator, which i´m running 2 main. Combo is a match i expext to loose, except if i´m running 8 slots in my sideboard (which is a lot) of chalices and thorns of the amethyst.

[arebennian]

I'd run frenzied goblin before I'd even consider running crap like Rancor :D

Yeah, didn't think so :-)

[MMogg]

Anyone feverishly testing this guy:
http://wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/zendikar/cpsi5pr61m_EN.jpg

What did you take out for him?

Also, are you testing Goblin Guide and if so, again, what are you taking out for him?

[GreenOne]

I took out 2 mogg war marshall and 2 chieftain for Instigator.
The list I'm playing has:
4 waste
2 caverns
17 mountains
4 matron/chief/lackey/ring/vial/pile/gempalm/instigator
1 siege gang
2 chieftain
2 stingscourger

I'd like to fit 3rd and 4th chieftain, 3rd scourger, 2nd SGC, but the deck has become really tight..

[sligh16]

My current list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Stingscourger
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Wort
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis

1 Gemstone caverns
1 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Forest
7 Fetchlands
3 Wastelands
6 Mountain


Pyrokinesis and Stingscourger are great with instigator and lackey, and the solo caverns has helped me a lot to drop turn one instigator.

[(nameless one)]

What about the 2/2 Haste for R goblin (goblin guide). Would his drawback really crippling (whenever ~ deals damage to an opponent, that player reveals the top card of his/her library. If it's a land put that to it's owners hand)?

[dr4g0n]

What about the 2/2 Haste for R goblin (goblin guide). Would his drawback really crippling (whenever ~ deals damage to an opponent, that player reveals the top card of his/her library. If it's a land put that to it's owners hand)?

Read the past four or five pages. The debate is that for a 2/2 haste, the drawback isn't worth it. Consider you're giving away CA and not gaining much tempo off the back of it.

[jimirynk]

Wait why does everyone like WI so much?
Its only a 1/1 that cost RR.
It doesn't make any of our bad MU's better.
Its a bad top deck and bad off ringleader.
If you run 6-8 lackey effect don't you run a higher chance of connecting with lackey and only having a WI to put into play?

This deck still has a hard time vs. goyf, combo, landstill(moat/humilty).
I think making room for thoughtseize would make more sense, BUT I don't think I need it gobs runs great without this little doublestrike guy.

[Jayzonious]

What is the reasoning behind running Gemstone Caverns over Chrome Mox?

[jimirynk]

What is the reasoning behind running Gemstone Caverns over Chrome Mox?

You don't need to remove a relevant card.
Fixed.

[hungryLIKEALION]

It doesn't take you down an extra card, you only really need the boost on the draw.

...

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGTIM/gemstone_caverns.jpg

>_>

[jimirynk]

They're both bad..
I'm not lucky enough to ever get this in a keepable hand on the draw.
I found that getting enough red mana was hard enough with out more lands that dont produce red mana.(beside the off chance I get lucky..)

Inb4 sex joke.

[from Cairo]

Wait why does everyone like WI so much?
Its only a 1/1 that cost RR.
It doesn't make any of our bad MU's better.
Its a bad top deck and bad off ringleader.
If you run 6-8 lackey effect don't you run a higher chance of connecting with lackey and only having a WI to put into play?

This deck still has a hard time vs. goyf, combo, landstill(moat/humilty).
I think making room for thoughtseize would make more sense, BUT I don't think I need it gobs runs great without this little doublestrike guy.

I more or less agree with this. He's another dead goblin when you're losing and win more when you're winning.

It's the worst when you're in an unfavorable board position and you really need a CA spell (or to chain a few CA spells) to dig back out: Ringleader, Matron, Siege-Gang, Mogg War Marshall, Sting Scourger; these can all buy you some time by providing a body + w/e: a FoF, a Demonic, 3 tokens, 2 tokens, a bounced threat.

I want to test it some more, but I really don't see this Goblin as being an x4 unless maybe there is a drastic design shift that utilizes him more. The deck is already running alot of cards to cheat casting costs: Lackey, Warchief, and Vial; Instigator does not seem better than any of these. And as mentioned above the deck needs to maintain a solid balance between it's means of cheating Goblins into play, and it's Goblins that are worth cheating into play.


They're both bad..
I'm not lucky enough to ever get this in a keepable hand on the draw.
I found that getting enough red mana was hard enough with out more lands that dont produce red mana.(beside the off chance I get lucky..)

Inb4 sex joke.

I've found Caverns to be quite good personally. I'm running 3 of them in Mono-Red currently along with 4 Wasteland and 16 Mountain and I've yet to see trouble with Red sources.

Maybe you've been unlucky with it, idk, but I've found the trade off is really quite reasonable. You're losing your worst card to start off with a land in play and since you're on the draw you're still starting with 7 cards in hand. Most of the time there is a card that doesn't fit the hand, something that is sub-par against a particular strategy, sometimes you can just pitch an extra land. Whatever is pitched is helping push you into the mid-late game faster than your opponent, giving you a tempo advantage.

Caverns also just meshes so well with some of the other cards in the deck (and counteracts popular opposing cards): it allows you to pair a 1 drop while attacking their development with a Wasteland, gives you Daze proof Vial or Lackey, nets you turn 2 Warchiefs, etc etc.

[Hanni]

Just wanted to post this cause I thought it was rather interesting. This has probably been discussed before. I know this is not an optimal build of Goblins.

R/u Goblins

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I know that the lack of Weirdings is bad. I know that a lack of artifact/enchantment removal is bad. However, I think it's still a very interesting build. Let me explain why:

Daze is great at building tempo. It allows early protection for Lackey and can keep other problem stuff off the board too (Goyf, etc). With Wasteland and Port, the potency of Daze becomes stronger, allowing it to counter stuff like Engineered Plague and Wrath of God. Boartusk is great for getting out of Pyroclasm and Firespout range, while pumping your guys out of Engineered Plague range (I had considered Chieftan, but decided Boartusk did more for this version because of the lack of everything else).

The sideboard is a total mess, not sure what should go there honestly.

Like I said, I know it's not an optimal version, and probably worse than the other splashes. However, what do you guys think? It's fun, at the very least.

[GreenOne]

Wait why does everyone like WI so much?
Its only a 1/1 that cost RR.
It deals 2 damage to the opponent when attacking, so it probably should be considered a 2/1.

It doesn't make any of our bad MU's better.
Yeah, combo is still a bad matchup, and all, but I guess it improves the matchup against Goyf.dec. I'll explain below.

Its a bad top deck and bad off ringleader.
So were Fanatic, Lackey, War Marshall. Unless your curve starts at 3, you will run bad ringleader topdecks.

If you run 6-8 lackey effect don't you run a higher chance of connecting with lackey and only having a WI to put into play?
I'm running WI instead of 2 War Marshals and 2 Chieftain. If this is the problem, just take out the 2 War Marshals and play with 6 Lackeys effects. What do you want to play with lackey? War Marshall?

This deck still has a hard time vs. goyf, combo, landstill(moat/humilty).
vs Combo there's nothing we can do unless we're willing to devote 8 SB slots to fight it.
Against Goyf WI works almost like War Marshall: it buys time. Either they're removing it, or they will keep the goyf on the defense.
Against Landstill/MWC/MUC and other almost creature-less decks, this guy is good. Would you prefer War Marshall or WI? The opponent must answer it NOW or you're getting an insane advantage with matron or ringleader. It exchanges with a just played Mishra, and the opponent needs more than a single Soldier token (elspeth or decree) to kill him.
Here's a game I had against Quinn:
I start with lackey, he swords.
I play Istigator. He doesn't have a second sword. I drop a Ringleader (revealing ringleader) and Ringleader (revealing Warchief+Pile). I drop a Chieftain. How is War Marshall ever better than this?

I think making room for thoughtseize would make more sense, BUT I don't think I need it gobs runs great without this little doublestrike guy.
Oh yeah, this is much better with ringleader than WI.

[Justin]

My thoughts on Warren Instigator:

This is an excellent card for goblins and should be run as a 4-of. It actually changes the way you play the deck. You now have 8 creatures (along with Vial) that allow you to "cheat" in creatures much faster than their casting cost allows. To maximize this, I recommend the following.

1) Play at least three Siege-Gang Commander. Connecting with a Lackey/WI early and getting SGC on the battlefield early will cause a lot of decks to just scoop.

2) Do not skimp on removal. It is imperative to clear a path for your Lackey/WIs, so you should at least eight removal spells. Ideally, this involves a light black splash for Warren Weirding, which gets rid of big creatures and Mongoose. I recommend Stingscourger as the other removal spell. It does not matter much that it is not permanent removal. It gets all of the commonly-played creatures off the board (except Mongoose). Once you connect with a WI, you are in such a great position to win, that it won't matter if they replay their Gofy (or whatever). This probably means cutting Gempalm Incinerators, which can be great in the late game, but fail to remove a lot of problem creatures early (Gofy, Tombstalker, Mongoose, Dreadnought, Nacanti, Ape, etc.).

3) Do not cut piledrivers. Make sure that you run a full set of these. Just because WI is a two-drop, this does not mean that you should be cutting piledivers to make room for it. The two cards serve different functions. Piledrivers are needed deal a lot of damage quickly, and they can be a great late-game draw. In fact, WI's ability to put two goblins on the battlefield makes piledriver even better than it was before. You should instead cut your War Marshalls, Frogtossers, etc.

4) Do not load up on "lords." Some players want to play more lords to take advantage of WI's double strike ability, but this is a mistake. It doesn't matter much if WI swings in for 4 instead of 2. The only thing that is important is that WI connects and cheats in goblins. If you are skimping on removal to make way for more lords, you are not taking proper advantage of this new card. Goblin Chieftain is the most playable of the three lords, but I plan on cutting mine altogether.

5) You do not need to play WI on turn one. Many players seem to think this card is worthless if you can't get him on the board during the first turn. They are talking about running cards like Simean Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, or Gemstone Caverns. I think that this is unnecessary. A turn one Vial or Lackey should draw out the countermagic or removal that your opponent has. You may find yourself resolving and connecting with WI more than you might expect because of these other "must counter" spells. If you have two other red goblins in hand and you imprint one on a mox, then you aren't taking full advantage of it's ability. I've never tested Caverns, but I am skeptical, considering that it will be colorless most of the time and is a dead card in multiples.

[jimirynk]

I


I've found Caverns to be quite good personally. I'm running 3 of them in Mono-Red currently along with 4 Wasteland and 16 Mountain and I've yet to see trouble with Red sources.



O I'm running a 3 color list with 4 waste 3 muta's and a swamp so It gets tricky sometimes.

[jimirynk]

The MD I've been fucking around with.

4 Aether Vial

1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Warren Weirding

2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
3 Mutavault
1 Swamp
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

[GreenOne]

I've never tested Caverns, but I am skeptical, considering that it will be colorless most of the time and is a dead card in multiples.
It's dead in multiples, unless you can pitch one to the other.
The fact that on the play it's just colorless doesn't matter much, considering it's just a 2of, and you still have 17 red sources.
Remember that you can pitch whatever to Caverns (lands, vials, lackeys...), and that its ability is optional. In case, even if on the draw and with it in hand, you can decide to just play it like a colorless one.
Caverns is also a permanent mana source, and this allows you to do broken things even when there's no WI involved, like turn 2 warchief, turn 3 Matron, Pile, Pile.

For the other things I'm with you, but some number of lords, likely 6, are required in the deck:
- Haste is indeed good for the team, end especially with 8 lackeys. The opponent is going to fear the lackey+attack in the same turn quite a bit.
- The lords help you not overextending into mass removal. With haste the opponent has to wrath the Lord, or risk an alpha strike for 10+ dmg.
- The lords are good creatures to lackey in. We don't want to play stingscourger out of Lackey, don't we?
- The lords are good both when you're winning and when you're losing.

EDIT: oh, also the SGC thing. I don't think we need more of those: if WI connects we can still go matron->SGC, play SGC. 2 should be the right number, but right now I prefer playing only one, with 6 lords and 6 removal in the deck.

[jimirynk]

Oh yeah, this is much better with ringleader than WI.

I simply stated that TS will improve your bad MU's more than a 1/1.

[Tacosnape]

You guys realize that Warren Instigator's never a dead goblin, right?

If your opponent has two threats on the board and you have a Warren Instigator, how many of these threats do you think your opponent's going to risk swinging with? The answer is between 0 and 1, depending on the durability of the threat. Your opponent might risk it with a Tarmogoyf left back to block, or something else strong against your removal suite.

Additionally, before, whenever you had a Vial at one, your opponent would often have to leave a blocker back (Or mana untapped) for fear of EOT Vial Lackey, untap, swing. Now, with Warren Instigator, you get to extend this threat another turn. Vial at 2 has often been the lag turn where your opponent can do whatever without fearing Matrons/Chiefs yet. Now there's a legitimate threat to it.

Making your opponent not swing is what Warren Instigator's going to do beautifully. The advantage of this? You're Vial Goblins. You are the Jesus of Magic decks by turn five or six. Time is your friend.

Also, uh, when he hits? Epic succeed.

So by my count, this makes him an improvement against -every- matchup. Here's the breakdown.

Aggro: He makes them not swing as heavily. If they have removal, the argument of what he does is pointless, because all 2-drop goblins are equally dead to removal. Forcing your opponent to remove him is actually an advantage.

Heavy Control: Another guy they have to have removal for, another guy who lets you cheat Goblins into play while dodging counters and disrupting manabases.

Countertop: This means you have more Lackeys than they have removal spells. Neat.

Combo: Once he's on the board, you at least don't have to spend your mana on any more Goblins ever. He can't hurt.

[Melman]

Being a long, long time player of goblins (posting pretty consistent and good results, too), I have mixed feelings on Instigator. I'm going to break him down in to pros and cons to try and make this easier to read.

PROS:
- If he connects, your board position is instantly amazing.
- double strike means he gets through elspeth tokens / opposing lackeys / unpumped geese / Confidants / a bunch of stuff. This is an overlooked point.
- Costs 2, an underutilized spot on the curve

CONS:
- Is small. (Although saying he's a 1/1 is dumb, he's effectively a 2/1, as others have pointed out.)
- Costs double red, making ports relatively unplayable imho.
- requires a fair amount of backup. If he's sitting there staring down a goyf, you better have a weirding or scourger or something to back him up.

I realize most of this is self explanatory and has been discussed, but when you break it down, you can see what you need to address to determine whether he's playable. If you want to abuse him, you need to: Have enough Red, and have enough backup.

So what I've done, is cut ports (something most people seem really scared of doing, but so far hasn't hurt me much) and change around my removal suite to 3 Weirding / 3 Stingscourger / 1 Incinerator. The incinerator is often needed as a 1 of in certain situations, and he's rarely dead, especially late game (which is when you're most likely to get him as a 1-of, unless you tutor). Weirdings and Stingscourgers are pro at clearing the way for lackeys and Instigators.
I also am using 3 Piledrivers instead of lords. As others have pointed out, pumping works well with instigator, but piledriver is just too powerful and fast, and if you're running 2/1s, I figured you need the speed.

[Tacosnape]

requires a fair amount of backup. If he's sitting there staring down a goyf, you better have a weirding or scourger or something to back him up.

See, this is the point I've been trying to make about Warren Instigator all along. Him sitting there and staring down a Tarmogoyf is not a bad thing. It often means the Tarmogoyf isn't swinging and you're going into a longer game, which means more time for you to abuse Ringleader/Siege-Gang/Matron/General Goblin Asshattery.

If Warren Instigator can't swing because a Goyf is in the way, it most likely means one of three things:

1. You have a Chieftain or Warchief out and you just played it.
2. You Vialed it in EOT while your opponent was tapped out and hasn't removed it yet.
3. You played it last turn, and your opponent took a turn and didn't remove it, which means it's likely he doesn't have removal for it.

Of the three, Scenario 1's the most likely to go awry, and it isn't bad at all, because if you kept a Chieftain or Warchief out for very long, it may mean your opponent lacks removal.

In Scenario 2, you just upped your Vial to 3 counters, and your Instigator can happily play defense while you go crazy with the Vial.

In Scenario 3, your opponent probably doesn't have removal, so you're probably going to win the long game by massing up a Goblin army, because his Tarmogoyf can't afford to swing either.

So while I agree having removal to get your Goblin through is really fantastically awesome, here's my point: Warren Instigator does not have to hit to be good. The fact that he skews how your opponent plays is enough. If they aren't swinging, you buy time and win more long games. If they spend counters on him, they aren't countering Matron/Ringleader. If they remove him, you're reducing the flexibility of how your opponent spends his removal. Etc.

[from Cairo]

PROS:
- Costs 2, an underutilized spot on the curve


my removal suite to 3 Weirding / 3 Stingscourger / 1 Incinerator. I also am using 3 Piledrivers instead of lords.

With 4 Instigator, 3 Weirding, 3 Stingscourger, and 3 Piledrivers the 2cc spot doesn't seem like an underutilized spot in the curve, it seems like the bulk of your drops. I'd assume 8-10 1cc cards, 13 2cc cards, 9-11 3cc cards, 4-5 4cc cards, and 1-3 5cc cards.

Overall I would list his casting cost as a con. He there are several good 2cc Goblins, those you're using as well as Mogg War Marshall. And the fact that he is RR rather than 1R prevents him from having synergy with Warchief and Rishadan Port/Mutavault.

[Malchar]

Warren Instigator also grows faster than other creatures in the deck when you have lords in play. Siege-Gang and others that make tokens are also great with lords. Perhaps the only problem is that adding four instigators and more sieges leaves no room for lords without trimming the list in other aspects.

I'd say that instigator is a four-of and the rest of the list should change to accomodate them. Give or take advantages and disadvantages, it's four more of the best card (Lackey).

[Koby]

Anyone else seem to be having trouble fitting in all the new goblins that are actually pretty good in their lists? The traditional Vial Goblins from end of Onslaught block is woefully outdated with the advent of Chieftain and the newcomer Instigator.

Is Gempalm still a high priority for the mono-red builds?
Are four Piledrivers necessary? Can three cut it?
How does Mogg War Marshall fit into the picture?

[gustha]

Hi to the thread!
I'm atm testing something like this, though it maybe needs some corrections:

// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
15 [ZEN] Mountain
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

Notes:
-24 lands may be too much, but I really like the cavern boost on the draw, I don't want to lose too much LD (waste is not good alone, and port is underrated without waste), and I don't want to go too much low with colored sources. Yes, I'm asking for the moon, maybe.
-4/2 split chieftain/warchief: chieftain is more suited for instigator, and i feel the cost reduction is a little less relevant in here. a 3/3 split would also do, maybe.
- a switch between matron and incinerator's slot is something to consider

All in alla, the new instigator is a bomb, especially in the control MU; but Tacosnape already said all the things I would have said on the topic, so nothing to add for me.

[Ectoplasm]

I honestly wouldn't even consider going below 4 warchiefs, the tempoboost this guy gives is simply incredible.

[P.S.]

The most important cards in the deck, in my opinion, are Matron, Warchief, Ringleader & Æther Vial. I would never play less than four of any of them. Lackey is also really strong and Piledriver does massive damage. That is the "problem" with the deck, in that more than half of it builds itself and there is not a lot of wiggle room. If you start cutting goblins, Ringleader and Incinerators become worse. Things like that.

That being said, I do think that Instigator can find a place in the deck, however I would absolutely not, under any circumstances, be trying to alter the deck just for that card. I'm not going to put in Chrome Mox. I'm not going to put in Chieftain. If anything, it's just going to go in the Mogg Fanatic slot. On the first turn, you're playing a Lackey or a Vial anyway, not a Fanatic.

[sligh16]

i would not cut the piledrivers. They are the ones that make the alpha attack possible, and having 4 makes easier drawing 2 to make the killer team, swinging for 5 or more.

Incinerator is the outdated to me. Maybe is my metagame, where dreadnoughts and 4/5 goyfs are very common, but i still think that they aren't killing too much lately..and with a early instigator in play, you will be dealing one damage.

weirding are really awful IMO. They don't ensure killing the creature you want, and they cost 2. And they are tribal,and sorceries, pumping the goyf.

Pyrokinesis is a great card with instigator, and against goyf. But is not a goblin!!!.... o really?, Who cares when you can kill a fattie or a bunch of 1/1 without mana!

[Nessaja]

Card disadvantage in an aggro deck generally isn't what you want. A countered Pyrokinesis is much worse then a countered Warren's Weirding and Gempalm Incinerator cannot be countered and gives you card advantage.

If Dreadnoughts are your problem pyrokinesis doesn't help you either but the best card Goblins has against it is either weirding or stingscourger.

On the subject of Piledriver, I think he's great when you're playing with 8 Haste Enablers. Instigator gets much better with it too.

[Volt]

I think it is possible to cut a couple Piledrivers, actually. I wouldn't cut any Gempalms from a mono-red build, though.

I still have my doubts that Instigator is worth cutting any of the current staples, but I'm willing to let playtesting change my mind.

[Avatara]

In my honest opinion Stingscourger is the most synergistic removal card in combination with Goblin Chieftain and Warren Instigator.

[Jayzonious]

Stingscourger is an unsummon which can potentially have haste and attack once, or block a creature for a turn. Then it disappears (Unless you pay the echo cost, which I've never had to resort to. Seems like a waste of a 4 mana turn in legacy goblins)

Warren Weirding seems like a better choice in my opinion.

Has anyone else contemplated splashing white for STP?

[Ectoplasm]

Has anyone else contemplated splashing white for STP?

Have you read the thread? Splashing white sucks.

[GreenOne]

Have you read the thread? Splashing white sucks.
A lot of italians do it anyway though.

[Avatara]

White does have access to Mirror Entity and Crib Swap.

[Mystical_Jackass]

There's a new goblin that blows up NB-land with kicker. Nice idea, 'cause he can be vialed in for less without throwing off curve

[dearleader]

I play mono-red goblins, and the only situation when I would have preferred Weirding over Stingscourger is when I've had to get rid of an opposing mongoose. Otherwise, I've always liked stingscourger. I've never felt the card disadvantage was relevant because my late game is so good.

For me, the main uses of stingscourger are:
1) Connecting with lackey - I prefer stingscourger here because Weirding gives them a choice. In situations where my opponent attacks me leaving behind 1 blocker for lackey, weirding doesn't help lackey connect.
1a) Playing defense with lackey - if my opponent knows I play stings, he is sometimes reluctant to attack even if he has superior board position.
2) Defense - The removal of weirding here might be better, but i've never liked giving my opponent a choice of what creature to remove. Even though stingscourger is technically card disadvantage, the tempo gain (bounce + block) is often a significant step towards reaching the mid-late game.
3) Assembling an alpha strike - again, I feel stingscourger is better here because it gets rid of the most significant threat.
4) Maindeck solution to Dreadnought and tombstalker- this is relevant for me because of dreadstill in the meta. Weirding is not a consistent solution because of factories and goyfs in dreadstill.

There are other indirect merits for running stingscourger as well, such as staying mono-red, but that's a separate issue altogether.

[from Cairo]

I play mono-red goblins, and the only situation when I would have preferred Weirding over Stingscourger is when I've had to get rid of an opposing mongoose. Otherwise, I've always liked stingscourger. I've never felt the card disadvantage was relevant because my late game is so good.

For me, the main uses of stingscourger are:
1) Connecting with lackey - I prefer stingscourger here because Weirding gives them a choice. In situations where my opponent attacks me leaving behind 1 blocker for lackey, weirding doesn't help lackey connect.
1a) Playing defense with lackey - if my opponent knows I play stings, he is sometimes reluctant to attack even if he has superior board position.
2) Defense - The removal of weirding here might be better, but i've never liked giving my opponent a choice of what creature to remove. Even though stingscourger is technically card disadvantage, the tempo gain (bounce + block) is often a significant step towards reaching the mid-late game.
3) Assembling an alpha strike - again, I feel stingscourger is better here because it gets rid of the most significant threat.
4) Maindeck solution to Dreadnought and tombstalker- this is relevant for me because of dreadstill in the meta. Weirding is not a consistent solution because of factories and goyfs in dreadstill.

There are other indirect merits for running stingscourger as well, such as staying mono-red, but that's a separate issue altogether.

Those two are the biggest for me. Aside from staying Mono-Red.

The tempo gain is definitely insane against agro, when you're able to bounce the spell they invested their turn casting (Goyf / Thoctar) and chump whatever they had on board already. It's basically like all either of you got out of your turn was a draw step and another land in play, which against agro is an amazing push into the mid game.

The assembling an alpha strike point is also huge, because these are the situations when there likely is a haste granter in play, there's possibly a Chieftain or Piledriver in play, so you're getting a blocker out of the way and getting an extra 2-4 points swinging in.

[GreenOne]

About Stingscourger. I also found that with 8 lackeys it's much, much better. So, I decided I wanted to try 4.
The 2 cc slot is becoming more and more full with WI addition, so I decided i could safely go with 3 Piledrivers. If you're not considering the Merfolk matchup (that is,undoubtly (sp?) positive), piledriver is really good only when your team is good, with at least other 2 guys. With 3 you'll still have this guy when your board position is good.
What other slot to cut? This guy buys time. You need this time to draw/play lands and reach the mid/late game. The deck now also has 4 more ways to cheat on mana, so cutting lands for something that helps you connecting might be worth it. Since you have less lands, you want them to be untouchable.

So, I'm now trying (still not sure about it) a version with 34 goblins:
4 Lackey, WI, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, Stingscourger,
3 Piledriver
2 Chieftain
1 SGC

4 Vial
4 Waste
18 Mountains

Thoughts?

[kicks_422]

WHy are you down to 1 SGC? I mean, isn't that the best card to drop off of Lackey/Instigator? Why not drop Chieftain completely, since with 8 lackey effects, you have a much better chance of just swarming.

[Avatara]

I think that you will have to run 4 Goblin Chieftains if you want to get most out of Warren Instigator. Remember that it is not only a new Goblin Lackey but also a good beater when combined with pumpers.

My current list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
17 [8E] Mountain (3)
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

As a Merfolk player, I'm glad that people are finally wising up and cutting Piledrivers. That card is just terrible. :cool: *triple layered sarcasm*:cool:

[Justin]

About Stingscourger. I also found that with 8 lackeys it's much, much better. So, I decided I wanted to try 4.
The 2 cc slot is becoming more and more full with WI addition, so I decided i could safely go with 3 Piledrivers. If you're not considering the Merfolk matchup (that is,undoubtly (sp?) positive), piledriver is really good only when your team is good, with at least other 2 guys. With 3 you'll still have this guy when your board position is good.
What other slot to cut? This guy buys time. You need this time to draw/play lands and reach the mid/late game. The deck now also has 4 more ways to cheat on mana, so cutting lands for something that helps you connecting might be worth it. Since you have less lands, you want them to be untouchable.

So, I'm now trying (still not sure about it) a version with 34 goblins:
4 Lackey, WI, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, Stingscourger,
3 Piledriver
2 Chieftain
1 SGC

4 Vial
4 Waste
18 Mountains

Thoughts?

I still like the black splash for Warren Weirding over Gempalm. Right now the top decks in the format are CounterTop and Tempo Thresh. If Goblin's re-emerges as a tier-one deck or if you are in a goblin-heavy meta, Gempalm is better. Otherwise, Weirding with clear a path for your Lackeys/Instigators much more reliably. As a turn two (or even turn three) play, Incinerator won't get the job done for you against a wide variety of commonly played creatures in Legacy.

I'm still unsure about Chieftain. My original thought was cut them and go with 4 piledrivers and at least 2 SCG. However, having six haste guys is nice. I suspect I'll test it both ways.

[Funky-kun]

People are still understanding WI the wrong way - you do not need to play Chieftain to make him useful. I would play the Chieftains only for the haste, pumping guys is just a nice addition.

Also, I am in a dilemma with this new guy. On one hand running 3 Siege-gangs has never been better. On the other hand, with more ways to cheat on mana maybe (just maybe) the landcount could be lowered (running 23 lands currently). The problem is, if your mana cheaters get answered, you might be stuck with uncastable high CC guys in hand.

The list i'm testing at the moment:

4 Wasteland
19 Mountain

4 Lackey / Piledriver / WI / Matron / Warchief / Ringleader / Incinerator
3 Siege-gang Commander
2 Stingscourger

4 AEther Vial

[Hanni]

I still like the black splash for Warren Weirding over Gempalm. Right now the top decks in the format are CounterTop and Tempo Thresh. If Goblin's re-emerges as a tier-one deck or if you are in a goblin-heavy meta, Gempalm is better. Otherwise, Weirding with clear a path for your Lackeys/Instigators much more reliably. As a turn two (or even turn three) play, Incinerator won't get the job done for you against a wide variety of commonly played creatures in Legacy.

I agree and disagree. Weirding is great removal early on, no doubt about that. However, with the new Instigator, the opponent is going to be forced to hold blockers back more often, which will allow you more time to get more guys in play. Weirding is better early on, but worse later on. They will sac their worst guy to Weirding. Gempalm is uncounterable (sans Stifle) and draws you a card. The fact that Gempalm is incolor makes it easier to cast. Additionally, it can be played as an actual Goblin when you have no need for removal. So I think both have pros and cons, and I wouldn't consider either one strictly superior.

[GreenOne]

WHy are you down to 1 SGC? I mean, isn't that the best card to drop off of Lackey/Instigator? Why not drop Chieftain completely, since with 8 lackey effects, you have a much better chance of just swarming.
When lackeys are connecting, dropping a 3+ cc dude usually spells gg anyway, due to the tempo swing you get in the match.
When you drop SGC you usually win or lose, and it's really rare the occasion where I had to drop a second SGC during the match.
I'm also playing with 22 lands, so dropping 5cc guys without cheating them it's quite difficult.

As a Merfolk player, I'm glad that people are finally wising up and cutting Piledrivers. That card is just terrible. :cool: *triple layered sarcasm*:cool:
Oh, don't worry, you'll still lose horribly, if they don't print something good for you in this set. :tongue:

I think that you will have to run 4 Goblin Chieftains if you want to get most out of Warren Instigator.
Yeah, but I still want all the mana cheaters (Warchiefs too) that the deck can exploit, way before the +1/+1 of chieftain. A 4/2 split was the best I could came up with, when playing with 22 lands.

[Justin]

I agree and disagree. Weirding is great removal early on, no doubt about that. However, with the new Instigator, the opponent is going to be forced to hold blockers back more often, which will allow you more time to get more guys in play. Weirding is better early on, but worse later on. They will sac their worst guy to Weirding. Gempalm is uncounterable (sans Stifle) and draws you a card. The fact that Gempalm is incolor makes it easier to cast. Additionally, it can be played as an actual Goblin when you have no need for removal. So I think both have pros and cons, and I wouldn't consider either one strictly superior.

I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that it is better to play removal that is best in the early game (Weirding, Stingscourger) now that you have eight creatures that cheat in goblins to the battlefield when they connect. In the past, Lackey was always a great card, but you couldn't reliably draw him and even if you drew one, it would often be countered or removed. Only on rare occasions would you start with multiple lackeys. Now you have eight such creatures. You should be able to reliably draw at least one and sometimes have multiples. Because of this, I'm tempted to find ways to maximize my chances of connecting with lackeys/institgators. This is why I think that removal that is most reliable on turn 2-4 is the way to go. There is no doubt that Incinerator is usually going to be much better in the mid-to-late game than the spells I mentioned above.

There are some drawbacks to this approach, however. If we add Instigator, Weirding, and Stingscourger (cards that are spectacular in the early game, but bad in the late game) and also cut cards that are good in the late game (incinerator, SCG, chieftain, piledriver, etc.) then we are obviously making the deck much weaker in the late game. What happens if we are unable to connect with an early lackey/instigator? Winning becomes much more difficult than it was with the older builds. This is the dilemma. However, because the potential of Instigator is so powerful, I am tempted to load up on spells that help my early game. Only time will tell if this is correct.

[sligh16]

I think Boartusk Liege is an underrated card. If your meta sides a lot of pyroclasms/volcanic fallouts, this guy just laughs at them. Even to engeneered plague. It can also stop a 3/4 tarmo if you dont play any weirdings to give them the sorcery bonus, keeping in mind most decks play just 4 ponders as sorceries.

[dr4g0n]

I think Boartusk Liege is an underrated card. If your meta sides a lot of pyroclasms/volcanic fallouts, this guy just laughs at them. Even to engeneered plague. It can also stop a 3/4 tarmo if you dont play any weirdings to give them the sorcery bonus, keeping in mind most decks play just 4 ponders as sorceries.

I agree. As well as simply being a solid answer to most of the answers Legacy has for gobs (Plague, Pyroclasm, Fallout, etc.), Leige is mono-red's only real answer to double plague, thus being a very solid addition to any sideboard.

[FoulQ]

With Cheiftains and port/waste, monored should have no difficulty with engineered plague. Most of the decks that run plague nowadays are either Countertop or Rock and those decks will have a laughable time getting through our mana denial to play their so-called x1 plague lock or their pyroclasm or whatever. To some extent same with landstill if they run plagues or WoGs or something, but there are other tools for that deck too.

That is, if you are still playing port.

With War Marshal, Instigator, Chieftain, and trying to keep something in 1cc, I don't think we need boartusk. His extra beefy 3/4 body is also really not that relevant. I guess if you aren't playing port though it gives mention to be explored...you are more vulnerable to off-color sideboard spells like pyroclasm and plague then.

ETA: Ok not "no problem" with plague, but it isn't a gamecrushing card like it used to be.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I agree. As well as simply being a solid answer to most of the answers Legacy has for gobs (Plague, Pyroclasm, Fallout, etc.), Leige is mono-red's only real answer to double plague, thus being a very solid addition to any sideboard.

Not to mention he tramples and can compete with Goyf in some games.

[Shanghi Knights]

I agree. As well as simply being a solid answer to most of the answers Legacy has for gobs (Plague, Pyroclasm, Fallout, etc.), Leige is mono-red's only real answer to double plague, thus being a very solid addition to any sideboard.

most would disagree with me but why not just main board them? hypothetically being 12 lord goblins.

I just discovered Mudbrawler Raiders for my next merfolk match up if i have one in the near future. i'm sure everyone who posts in here already knows about him though.

[FoulQ]

@Shanghi: Because the strength of goblins will never be in the power/toughness efficiency. 2/2 for 3R and 1/1 for 2R isn't going to match up to 3/3 for G or 4/5 for 1G.

[Zinch]

With Cheiftains and port/waste, monored should have no difficulty with engineered plague. Most of the decks that run plague nowadays are either Countertop or Rock and those decks will have a laughable time getting through our mana denial to play their so-called x1 plague lock or their pyroclasm or whatever. To some extent same with landstill if they run plagues or WoGs or something, but there are other tools for that deck too.

That is, if you are still playing port.

With War Marshal, Instigator, Chieftain, and trying to keep something in 1cc, I don't think we need boartusk. His extra beefy 3/4 body is also really not that relevant. I guess if you aren't playing port though it gives mention to be explored...you are more vulnerable to off-color sideboard spells like pyroclasm and plague then.

ETA: Ok not "no problem" with plague, but it isn't a gamecrushing card like it used to be.

You don't realise that a single chieftain doesn't protect you're dudes agaisnt a pyroclasm. It's an answer against plague, but not agaisnt pyroclasm.

Also, saying that with port and wasteland you can forbid an opponent to play a pyroclas is at least optimistic. Agaisnt plague maybe, but not against pyroclasm, a 2 cmc sorcery.

[dr4g0n]

most would disagree with me but why not just main board them? hypothetically being 12 lord goblins.

I just discovered Mudbrawler Raiders for my next merfolk match up if i have one in the near future. i'm sure everyone who posts in here already knows about him though.

As well as agreeing with FoulQ, I'd like to also point out that maindecked Leige would slow us down immensely. Having the Chieftains gives a decent answer to Plague and the haste is what allows us to maindeck it without that much of a qualm, but to maindeck Leige is like kissing your speed goodbye - not a good idea for anyone running goblins.

[FoulQ]

You don't realise that a single chieftain doesn't protect you're dudes agaisnt a pyroclasm. It's an answer against plague, but not agaisnt pyroclasm.

Also, saying that with port and wasteland you can forbid an opponent to play a pyroclas is at least optimistic. Agaisnt plague maybe, but not against pyroclasm, a 2 cmc sorcery.

The clasm thing is two fold.

1) I've been seeing it less and less in my meta as the only popular deck it "destroys" is goblins nowadays.

2) Honestly I've never really been that afraid of pyroclasm. Yes it is obviously a good card against us but goblins is known for its ability to recover. I wouldn't maindeck subpar cards like boartusk liege to combat a card that has been dying out lately and can be played around.

[Hanni]

The other BIG thing about Boartusk is that it dodges Firespout, which everyone seems to be playing in place of Pyroclasm these days. An ass of 4 is right out of range, which is important. Waste/Port can't do everything on its own.

Definitely a great SB card. I like it better than Chieftan MD (my opinion, which doesn't make it right), but now with Instigator, whether or not there is room for it MD is the issue.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I just discovered Mudbrawler Raiders for my next merfolk match up if i have one in the near future. i'm sure everyone who posts in here already knows about him though.

If you need sideboard slots specifically devoted to the Merfolk match-up, you're doing it wrong. Take it from a Merfolk player, that shit is about 70/30 in your favor, and it's pretty much my least favorite match-up to have to play in a tournament.

[Shanghi Knights]

If you need sideboard slots specifically devoted to the Merfolk match-up, you're doing it wrong. Take it from a Merfolk player, that shit is about 70/30 in your favor, and it's pretty much my least favorite match-up to have to play in a tournament.

No means is it a nessesity to have board spots to fight merfolk but it looked interesting to me none the less.

i see what most of you mean by boartusk being bad in the main deck, but a 3/4 trampler thats most likely going to be bigger due to having a king or a goblin chieftain already played a turn before. (dunno if anyones still using king or not).
is somewhat appealing.

[Mantis]

There are actually ways you can lose to Merfolk, it's a good matchup for you but you should not underestimate them.
a) They go Vial and you have no turn 1 play or they can counter your turn 1 play, then they follow up with Standstill.
b) A quick Jitte against you especially if Mutavault is carrying it and you can not block it with Piley.
c) They out tempo you, usually because they have Vial and you don't.

I bring in 4 REB to combat their Standstills and have an answer for a Merfolk carrying a Jitte, the Mutavault can be answered with Gempalm, Waste or Port. REB is also a great way to buy a lot of time by killing a lord and force a war of attrition thus having a counter against plan c. Pyrokinesis is a fairly good answer to both plan b and c as well so that's another option.

You are doing it wrong if you're losing a war of attrition against Merfolk, that should never happen.

[Media314r8]

No means is it a nessesity to have board spots to fight merfolk but it looked interesting to me none the less.

i see what most of you mean by boartusk being bad in the main deck, but a 3/4 trampler thats most likely going to be bigger due to having a king or a goblin chieftain already played a turn before. (dunno if anyones still using king or not).
is somewhat appealing.

I don't intend to flame you specificly, but to stop you and others from spamming this thread with ideas covered earlier.

Everyone:Read the thread, and play the deck before posting half-baked, likely allready suggested ideas here. Less discussion of attempting timmy-style tribal, or 'new' cards that have better functional printings. (Goblin Settler >> Goblin Ruinblaster) More testing results and decklists with 'gator, the only sure addition to every goblins mainboard.

My list pre-gator (generally successful, about half the events I've played it at I've at least top 4'd, though most of those were about 20-25 people in size):

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PT] Swamp (3)
6 [TSP] Mountain (1)
(was testing two gemstone caverns in place of two mountains)

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
3 [MOR] Earwig Squad
1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 3 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

The list was very mid-game, with a much different stratedgy than a mono red build. Squad was invaluable, and got there to win niegh-unwinnable matches against combo, echantress, decks packing moat, ect. I also love the everliving crap out of lightning crafter, and found myself tutoring for him about 50% of the time, which speaks highly I think considering he is the same CMC as ringleader. Bolting every turn while championing a matron or ringleader is not to be taken lightly. I would never, ever cut this card, but I doubt I'd ever run more than one. If you haven't tested crafter, I suggest you do, he warps everything from stalemates to stacks decks to the mirror and other tribal MUs.

The list I've been testing with 'gator:

// Lands
6 [DM] Mountain (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [R] Badlands

// Creatures
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [LRW] Mad Auntie

So many things are wrong with this list that I can't begin to list them, foremost only 2 SGCs. I have allways felt driver was win-more, and can lead to some horendous turn - of -events, as if your opponent swords him with the trigger on the stack and blocks your warchief/chieftain with his goyf, (when you thought he'd have to block driver to stay alive) winning can turn into losing in a hurry. He also does nothing by himself, blah blah blah (further discussion of driver earlier in the thread) I dropped all the earwig squads, which I feel should have a place in Rb goblins somewhere in the 75 as an answer to shackles, plagues, winconditions in decks like enchantress, ect. I still feel like wierding is much more consistent and reliable removal than incinerator and/or stingscourger that I am hesitant to go mono-red balls-to the walls. I also feel that a 4/4 frogtosser/chieftain split is much better for your curve than 3/3 or 4/2 warchief/chieftain in mono red, as hands that dont contain a lackey or vial, (or games that don't involve them resolving) your game starts turn four at the earliest with chieftain, opposed to turn three with frogtosser. Wort is a godsent late-game, with recurring edicts/matrons->edicts, ect, but squad deprives your opponent of a late-game, and trades with goyf. I am unsure which if either of them deserves a tutorable slot MD.

In sharp contrast to all my self-loathing over cuts and slots for Rb gobos post-gator, gator has been the bees' knees. Goyfs quiver in fear with vial at two, explosive hands win much faster against combo on the times you ARE able to goldfish, and the curve seems healthier with 8 1 drops, and 9 two drops + removal. (as opposed to only 4 frogtosser and 4 edicts previously at two) I think gator is too good to not play as a four of, and my gemstone caverns testing has gone out the window with having to produce RR on turn two with 7 non-red sources in the deck was rough.

Thoughts? Results testing?

[Mantis]

@Media:
Welcome to a public forum. The posters here are entitled to discuss what they think is relevant as long as they follow the rules of the forum. I might think it's relevant to discuss Goblin Ruinblaster, but this might not be relevant to you, just as Lightning Crafter has never interested me much. But I am open to discuss Lightning Crafter whereas you just dismiss Goblin Ruinblaster on forehand without giving any reason at all. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your creative take on Goblins and I enjoyed reading your tournament reports but show a little respect to the other posters.

Anyway on topic:



(Goblin Settler >> Goblin Ruinblaster)
That is just not true, they both have their pro's and cons.

Goblin Settler can be Vialed in which is huge. Ruinblaster on the other hand allows you to apply a lot more pressure and thus take more advantage of the tempo generated by destroying an opposing land.

Warren Instigator hasn't been able to convince me just yet. If your opponent is holding their Goyf back because their fear a Warren Instigator coming from the Vial they just play bad. I mean if you have a Vial out and you will win eventually if the opponent does not put pressure on you. Furthermore, Instigator is hardly needed with Vial out as it's quite easy to overwhelm your opponent with Goblins if you have enough of them to cast.

[Hanni]

I had talked about it a couple of pages back, but absolutely no one responded to it at all. I thought it was a viable idea, and I've been testing it a good bit and it's won me a good handful of games where I would have lost without it.

Daze.

This deck is constantly curving out, and Daze is free. It protects early Lackey's, whether it's against opposing creatures or removal. In fact, it protects early Vial's too. It allows crucial Warchief's to resolve early. It keeps curved out Firespouts, Engineered Plagues, WoG's, etc off the table. Combined with Waste/Port, it can be a hard counter all the way into the midgame.

It's been very good for me in testing. Like I said originally, I'm not stating that it's optimal, or the build itself is better than existing splashes. I'm simply wondering why it isn't an accepted splash.

For reference, here's the list I've been testing it with:

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 4 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

[Jayzonious]

Has anyone else contemplated splashing white for STP?


Have you read the thread? Splashing white sucks.

I just got done reading the top 8 for the SCG Legacy 5k Charlotte. 2 Goblin decks made the Top 8. Both were R/W.

-1000 Credibility points Ectoplasm

Once the deck lists are posted I guess we can discuss this further, hopefully without being ignorant. K thx.

[from Cairo]

Daze.

This deck is constantly curving out, and Daze is free. It protects early Lackey's, whether it's against opposing creatures or removal. In fact, it protects early Vial's too. It allows crucial Warchief's to resolve early. It keeps curved out Firespouts, Engineered Plagues, WoG's, etc off the table. Combined with Waste/Port, it can be a hard counter all the way into the midgame.


Personally, the fact you curve out plays turn 1-5 is what makes Daze unappealing, setting yourself back a land drop is pretty undesirable, especially in the early game, where Daze is most relevant.

I guess pushing through the turn one play should mitigate the tempo loss, aka a connecting Lackey makes up for you having only 1 land in play on turn 2, but if they have the solution to the turn 1 play after you use Daze, it seems like you're completely buried. For instance if you play Vial, they counter, you Daze, it resolves then before it gets to 3-4 counters they Engineered Explosives it then you're back land drops and don't have a way to cheat guys in. Or if they have a second counter, or if they Brainstorm or Ponder into a Swords for the Lackey, etc.


I guess the other big question would be is this any better than Thoughtseize? Having discard either main or sideboard or both, can help you force through your bomb early game plays. Additionally it has the upside of seeing the opponent's hand so you can better map out the upcoming turns. Additionally it's in Black, which actually offers you good cards outside Thoughtseize like Warren Weirding, Cabal Therapy, Frogtosser Banneret, Wort Boggart Auntie, Mad Auntie, etc, probably not all would fit, but there are some other cards offered, unlike Blue which has no real playable cards that have synergy with the Tribe.

[Jayzonious]

Daze... Daze? Then we could put FoW in the deck. We could probably run Counterbalance and Tarmogoyfs in the deck too.

They all seem like good cards.

[Hanni]

I agree with you on all points made, Cairo. It does set you back a land drop; when Daze is met with countermagic in response, it does cause you to lose a little tempo. It does eat countermagic from them, which is a bonus, but I do accept that as a con of the card.

I also agree about the other benefits being in black (or green) gives. They offer more than just one spell.

In comparison with Thoughtseize though, the problem there is that it costs 1 mana, which sets you back in tempo just as bad as returning a land drop back to hand. Daze allows you to still curve out, and the land drops being returned to hand are still there to be replayed. Daze creates far more tempo as well; the opponent invests mana to cast the spell you Daze, thus burning up a turn for that opponent. Thoughtseize may pull 1 of the 2 StP's the opponent was holding, but they can still cast the other one.

As I said, I don't think the blue splash is a better version than other possibilities. What I do think is that it is viable, plays well, and shouldn't be dismissed right off. I've won several games now that I had no business winning because of Daze.


Daze... Daze? Then we could put FoW in the deck. We could probably run Counterbalance and Tarmogoyfs in the deck too.

They all seem like good cards.

Nice one liner bud.

[Stall_19]

Daze is too situational of a card to spash a color for. Its not worth it to expose even more of your manabase to wasteland not to metion the tempo loss that accompanies it. I like the deck best as monored.

[Mantis]

CounterTop decks operate under a different strategy than Goblins; they drop a threat and aim to protect it at all costs, the tempoloss Daze generates is irrelevant as their threat is already on the board. Previously, we didn't have enough threats that we could ride to town, just Vial and Lackey just isn't enough. Now with Instigator we may have reached that critical mass necessary for this strategy and make Daze worthwhile. However, the concerns raised by Cairo and Stall are real ones. Keep me updated on your testing results.

I'm sure this has been mentioned many pages back, but Stifle is another interesting card. It solves somes of the issues raised by other posters. While you expose your manabase to include Volcanic Island, but at the meantime this could be a bonus as Stifle on Wasteland sets them back. It also doesn't cost you a landdrop like Daze. My primary concern is that you need a blue mana and you often can not afford to do so. That means Stifle is probably not the way to go in the end.

[GreenOne]

I also agree about the other benefits being in black (or green) gives. They offer more than just one non-goblin spell.
Fixed.
I wouldn't run daze for the same reason Landstill doesn't run it.
We usually aim at the mid-late game, where we have our draw engine going and it becomes difficult for the opponent to beat us.
Daze sets us down on land drops and this is just bad in a deck like this. Daze could be good in a more tempo build, a deck that really want to exploit the lackeys and the tempo tools of the deck (stingscourger..). I would not like that list, but i guess that being more Lackey-centric can work somewhere.

[GGoober]

I know that Rancor was raised many many pages back as a potential way to force Lackey through. The idea was dismissed, mainly because a Rancor with no creatures isn't good.

I think it's time to reconsider 3-4 Rancors again in the MD and 1 Pendel Haven for RG builds with Lackey and Instigator.

A Rancor on an instigator would allow to push through goyf stalls. A Rancor on Lackey on turn 2 pushes through any 2 toughness creatures while trading with a 3 toughness creature.

If you consider the cases where you drop Lackey turn 1, the only issues where he doesn't connect is if your opponent:

- Counters him with FOW/Daze
- Removes him with StP/Bolt
- Plays a creature to trade e.g. Bob, Putrid Imp etc.
- Plays a Goyf to kill it.

Now, the current goblin list is doing all it can to really solve points 3 and 4. We can't use points 1 and 2 to argue for the badness of Rancor, so let's focus on points 3 and 4.

Rancor on Lackey kills through Bob, Putrid Imp and any toughness 2 creature, therefore Rancor enables point 3 to connect lackey. turn 2 Rancor on Lackey allows you to force and beat through a 1/2 Goyf, and if Goyf is 2/3 on turn 2, you still manage to force through a Goyf and solve the problem for the later turns.

I doubt there're cases where Goyf can be consistently 2/3 on turn 1. The best I can see is if you play Brainstorm turn 1 and fetches, so it's safe to assume that Goyf shouldn't be a 3/4 when Lackey swings in with a Rancor, so at the worst, it's a 1-1 trade.

Rancor also enables much more with Piledriver and Warren Instigator. On an Instigator, it translates to 6 power trampling, so it would take a 5/6 Goyf to completely stop the lackey-effect from comming into play. Turn 2 instigator, turn 3 Rancor is bad, but it's much achievable and smoothened with vial. Goblins has an interesting curve, and the innate flaw of Instigator is it's really a 2/1 for RR. No one is going to let it resolve and connect, so it's just an overcosted 2/1. That logic is flawed to some extent because it's equally fair for the goblin player to argue that "If you don't have a removal for my lackey, then I will most likely win". And this is the holy word of Goblins, to connect and bury your opponents in card and board advantage. Instigator provides that additional inevitability if he's unresolved. Instead on simply resolving Lackey and Vials, your opponent now has to deal with Instigator as well.

Therefore Rancor might have some potential now. It always had potential. The main reason is that Goblins can do absolutely nothing against points 1, 2. For points 3, 4, we have been running Gempalm, Weirding, Stingscourger to connect Lackey. Rancor doesn't solve both 3,4, but it solves 3 solidly, and in the process for just one green mana, and keeps coming back on more targets. It's drawback on point 4 is more justified now with the printing of Instigator, since on an instigator, you can pretty much connect safely. Rancor also has the benefit on pumping up Piledrivers for lethal instead on getting the poor dude chumped.

[kicks_422]

Thing is, if you're going to run Rancor, you won't add to the deck's strength. You're merely changing how it deals with situations 3 and 4, since you won't have enough space for everything. Nothing added, just changed.

[GreenOne]

Therefore Rancor might have some potential now. It always had potential. The main reason is that Goblins can do absolutely nothing against points 1, 2. For points 3, 4, we have been running Gempalm, Weirding, Stingscourger to connect Lackey. Rancor doesn't solve both 3,4, but it solves 3 solidly, and in the process for just one green mana, and keeps coming back on more targets. It's drawback on point 4 is more justified now with the printing of Instigator, since on an instigator, you can pretty much connect safely. Rancor also has the benefit on pumping up Piledrivers for lethal instead on getting the poor dude chumped.
If both the cards are solving only problem #3 and #4, why not running Stingscourger/WW, and have more goblins in the deck?

Also, you didn't notice that rancor plain sucks against #2 where the opponent might have a chance in 2for1ing you. This does not happen with WW and even Scourger.

[snackfu]

In comparison with Thoughtseize though, the problem there is that it costs 1 mana, which sets you back in tempo just as bad as returning a land drop back to hand.

No.

Thoughtseize eats up mana for one turn. That mana is then available to use again on the following turn.

Daze would put us back a land drop for the rest of the game. The tempo loss is definitely not the same.


Daze is also a horrible late-game top deck and doesn't play nice with Ringleader.

[GreenOne]

Daze is also a horrible late-game top deck and doesn't play nice with Ringleader.
Thoughtseize too, even if to a smaller effect.

[ScatmanX]

I´ve done some testing with daze, bu not in a RU build, but Rbu, for weirdings. It can surely be done, specially with the new RU fetch, it just depend on your playstile. The deal is that opponents don´t expect it and, you can always side them out game 2 or 3, making them play around it for nothing.

It is really interesting and won me some games, countering gofs, counters, standstills, and more. The ´´Tempo loss´´ caused by it has never really turned it self into un issue in any game. If you try a 1st turn lackey, they daze it, then you daze, then they force it, awesome! they wont have counters for you Instigators or Weirdings.
Maybe, if I ever buy some Volc. Islands, I´ll try it o a champ.

[true story]

Rancor would suck in this deck. If you were gonna lower the Goblin count you might as well play Rb or Rbg and play Terminate. Terminate gets Lackey through like a champ. Terminate isn't ever a dead card unless they have no creatures, in that case you prolly win. If you're in topdeck mode and have nothing in play drawing Rancor will suck ass. True story.

[FoulQ]

Rancor would suck in this deck. If you were gonna lower the Goblin count you might as well play Rb or Rbg and play Terminate. Terminate gets Lackey through like a champ. Terminate isn't ever a dead card unless they have no creatures, in that case you prolly win. If you're in topdeck mode and have nothing in play drawing Rancor will suck ass. True story.

[Snip. Warning for flaming. - Bardo] Although I agree that rancor is not good enough and makes lackey/instigator too important. But rancor has been discussed a million times. Just like freaking terminate.

In other news, both the lists for the charlotte 5k are a little out of this world...one list has no wasteland, the other list is just...a little out there. Not saying they are necessarily wrong, but it looks to me like the raw power of goblins might have pushed them through in a heavy aggro meta, maybe some good matchups against merfolk or something. Any thoughts?

ETA: Hopefully they are members here and they can give us some insight on their lists...they are very strange indeed.

[ScatmanX]

I don´t know.
Guess I´d never play any of those lists.
I mean, 4 ports and 0 Wastes?
3 Paths and 4 wastes on the other?
no Stingscourer on monored?

Is there anywhere we can see the Matchups?

[Media314r8]

That is just not true, they both have their pro's and cons.

Goblin Settler can be Vialed in which is huge. Ruinblaster on the other hand allows you to apply a lot more pressure and thus take more advantage of the tempo generated by destroying an opposing land.

Warren Instigator hasn't been able to convince me just yet.

Saying the increased 'pressure' generated by a 2/1 utility for 2RR which cannot be vialed in for it's effect over a 1/1 utility for 3R which also hits basics is like saying boggart harbinger can generate more tempo than goblin matron, presuming the card disadvantage is as negligible as the many drawbacks of ruinblaster. With the new UG fetchland, thresh decks will likely be able to include basic forests to play their threats and basic mountians to play their sweepers, thus furthering the gap between ruinblaster and settler.

@ 'gator: test the card before posting, or explain, in your experience testing, why 'gator does not warrant inclusion.

Lightning crafter has not been discussed at length in this thread. Daze, terminate, thoughtseize, and earwig squad all have. I'm not attacking people for thinking outside the box, only suggest they read the thread and save flame wars and repeating posts already covered.

[Nessaja]

I'd say there's no problem with discussing those cards if they come right alongside test results and improved matchups because of the inclusion of those cards.

I haven't been extremely impressed by Warren Instigator either, it's quite simply another lackey effect it's not going to revolutionize the deck but it's easily the best 2 drop alongside piley.

[Mantis]

A 2/1 with haste is a much more significant threat than a 1/1 and frankly I wasn't planning on boarding either Ruinblast or Settlers against Threshold anyway. If a deck such as 43 lands starts seeing more play I can definately see Ruinblaster or Settlers being played but not right now, so we best save this discussion for a more relevant time. If you think Harbinger is to Matron what Ruinblaster is to Settlers I can assure you that view is very skewed and incorrect. They are actually fairly close in powerlevel with Ruinblaster being better in some situations and Settlers in others. If you need examples feel free to ask.

Perhaps you should pose specific question to garner some attention for Lightning Crafter. I'll start one for everybody to reply: Does Lightning Crafter shore up any specific weaknesses Goblins has right now?
Is Lightning Crafter too narrow or not?

As for Gator I will test it more once it gets released, as there is still tournament for me next week so the attention goes towards that tourney first.

[Media314r8]

Does Lightning Crafter shore up any specific weaknesses Goblins has right now?
Is Lightning Crafter too narrow or not?

Decks with Moat and/or propaganda effects, tribal decks with jitte in the MD or SB, the mirror.

As a tutorable 3/3 that bolts, I would say he's less narrow than Wort, Boggart Auntie or sharpshooter, both of which have been in the MD of decks with proven tournament sucess (not to say the slots were correct or justified, but clearly the deckbuilders possessed some metagame judgment, as they managed to top8). Assuming he champions a matron or a ringleader, (I think this is fair, as he is usually tutored by matron) he is still CA even if he's removed before you untap with him, and accomplishes two goals goblins wants to achieve: sending 3 to the dome every turn, or removing blockers for drivers to swing through. (realistically, even goyf with the help of incinerator)

[Avatara]

How do you guys think that the new fetch lands will change the strength of Wasteland in the Goblin deck? Will wasteland become less important once decks will be able to fetch the correct basic lands more easily? Will Rishadan Port become more important than Wasteland?

[ScatmanX]

I think that Port will not became more important that Wasteland, card that we should probably keep using.
People will have to fetch for duals still. You can´t think that Wastes will have no targets. Off the DTB we have decks playing Wastelands, Factories, Mutavaults...

Goblin is a good exemple of what may happen to other decks.
We have always had Rg and Rb Fetchs, but I rarely see a list packing Forests or Swamps.

[true story]

I want to be the first to say fuck the new goblins! They suck! The deck kicks ass just fine right now with Chieftain being the newest beat stick in the deck. It's good. A 2 drop 1/1 isn't, the 2/1 sucks to. Fuck Port to. The deck isn't meant to be cute, you're suppose to blow up lands and creatures and bash face.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I want to be the first to say fuck the new goblins! They suck! The deck kicks ass just fine right now with Chieftain being the newest beat stick in the deck. It's good. A 2 drop 1/1 isn't, the 2/1 sucks to. Fuck Port to. The deck isn't meant to be cute, you're suppose to blow up lands and creatures and bash face.

As someone who doesn't even play this deck, I can tell you, "Yes, Instigator is good." He's not quite the 'New Jesus Goblin,' but he's pretty damn close.

Rishadan Port is also good in the right list, although I think Wasteland continues to be the better card.

On the other hand, I think you're right about the 2/1 kicker dude, I wouldn't want to run him myself.

Anyhow, from a weed powered Magic player to a rum powered Magic player, there's my two cents, USDA.

[true story]

GOD FUCK WILL YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT TERMINATE?!!? Although I agree that rancor is not good enough and makes lackey/instigator too important. But rancor has been discussed a million times. Just like freaking terminate.

No I won't shut the fuck up about Terminate. Fuck you asshole. My name is Brian Thomas if you ever see me at an event say something! I've been playing Goblins for 16 years(even when they sucked) I know what I'm talking about unlike 99% of the retards on here. I know some people don't like it, fine whatever it's good anyway. I was just pointing out that Terminate is better than Rancor and here you go running your mouth. Can you at least agree with me on that? Sorry if playing good cards offends the gay ass Goblin gods.

[Alecthar]

Be careful not to sound too intelligent and well-spoken there, True Story, you'll make all the other forum-goers jealous of your eloquence.

At least you're not some kind of barely coherent jackass making unverifiable claims and stating that we can rely on him as an expert while managing to simultaneously provide compelling evidence to the contrary.

For the record, Warren Instigator is, at the very least, comparable to Mogg War Marshal. The effective cost to power ratio is the same (Double Strike versus actually getting 2 power worth of dudes in play). It has an obviously powerful effect, and it has more subtle effects, like sucking up removal that might otherwise be spent on something like a Piledriver or Chieftain, or providing redundancy for removed Lackeys. It makes opposing guys want to stay home, just to stop him from dropping 2 Goblins. Having Double Strike means it doesn't trade with 1/1s like Lackey. In short, the card has enough potential to merit debate, a process which, contrary to (apparently) popular opinion, does not include wandering in and making wild-ass generalizations with no evidence in support of one's poorly stated point.

Fortunately, we can rely on you to avoid that particular pitfall, eh?

[Jayzonious]

I know what I'm talking about unlike 99% of the retards on here. .

You said what I was thinking. Awesome. I wish there was an invite only forum where idiots contemplating Daze and throwing the W splash out the window weren't allowed! :laugh:

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Dude, chill. True story.

[Pastorofmuppets]

You said what I was thinking. Awesome. I wish there was an invite only forum where idiots contemplating Daze and throwing the W splash out the window weren't allowed! :laugh:

It would be nice. Have you read the Natural Order threads? :really:

[from Cairo]

Does Lightning Crafter shore up any specific weaknesses Goblins has right now?
Is Lightning Crafter too narrow or not?
Decks with Moat and/or propaganda effects, tribal decks with jitte in the MD or SB, the mirror.

As a tutorable 3/3 that bolts, I would say he's less narrow than Wort, Boggart Auntie or sharpshooter, both of which have been in the MD of decks with proven tournament sucess (not to say the slots were correct or justified, but clearly the deckbuilders possessed some metagame judgment, as they managed to top8). Assuming he champions a matron or a ringleader, (I think this is fair, as he is usually tutored by matron) he is still CA even if he's removed before you untap with him, and accomplishes two goals goblins wants to achieve: sending 3 to the dome every turn, or removing blockers for drivers to swing through. (realistically, even goyf with the help of incinerator)

The card is real good versus Tribal and general agro and as mentioned can also be an insurance play against sweepers in control by Championing a card advantage Goblin. It's got a pretty big target on it's head, but at the same time that's not a bad thing; opposing decks have to answer it promptly, and when they do you get a 'comes into play' ability in return.

I agree with Media, I like him better than Wort or Sharpshooter in the current environment (in New England anyway; lots of Red based agro, lots of Canadian Thresh and fair bit of UW control).

I'm running one in the Sideboard at the moment, but it's one of the few singleton/tech Goblin cards I'd think about trying to push into the Main.

[FoulQ]

Here are all the posts you posted about terminate:


I'm also running 3 Terminate and 3 Weirdings md. Terminates are always fucking awesome, except when you ringleader into them, they kill Goyfs, Dreadnaughts, Tombstalkers.... You get the picture. Has anyone else tried this? Any thoughts or input people?


If I go RG I lose Weirding and Terminate, Gempalm is a poor substitute as it doesn't kill Goyf, Doran, Tomstalker, Naught...


Anyone playing black splash should be playing Terminate, it is amazing. Yes I realize it's not a Goblin and Ringleadering into it sucks, so what? Turn 1 Lackey, Turn 2 Terminate whatever they got as a blocker, good game. It's better than Gempalm, Fanatic, Stingscourger, maybe better than Weirdings. True story.


Terminate AND Weirdings run shit. True story. Until you at least try it don't act like I'm some dumb fuck and I don't know what I'm saying.


I hardly think 3 of each qualifies as a shit ton of removal. I don't play Gempalm cause he doesn't kill big dudes and he sucks when no other Goblins are in play. Besides can you ever have to much removal? Killing shit and bashing face is how I've played every goblin deck I've had for the past 16 years... Fuck it. I was just trying to tell people how good Terminate has been to me, but since you all think I'm retarded fuck off.


Terminate + Weirding = The shit. True story. Why maindeck Relic to "deal with Goyf" when you can off him instead?


Terminate is how you deal with dreadnaught, true story.


I wouldn't suggest splashing a color just for 1 card, but if you're already in black you should TRY it. I run 3 Terminate 3 Weirding, I can't give you match by match results. I just know it's awesome and the couple of people I let borrow the deck were amazed at how good Terminate was. I know it's not a Goblin, who cares? Vial isn't a Goblin it's still awesome. True story.


At least you tried running Terminate, alot of people just say fuck it. To be honest when I put them in the deck I was playing against Tombstone alot and Gempalm rarely killed Goyf or Tombstalker, I switched to Terminate and they have yet to suck, even on the rare occasion I flip 1 with Ringleader.


You forgot Terminate


Gempalm doesn't always kill enough shit for me, I love Terminate. I know it's not a Goblin but it's awesome just the same. I run 3 and 3 Weirdings and it works wonders.

So I think that is enough about terminate. I don't think you are necessarily a bad or good player, obviously I can't know that from here, that isn't what I'm claiming, but I think we got the point that you like terminate. I agree that rancor is bad.

[DragoFireheart]

No I won't shut the fuck up about Terminate. Fuck you asshole. My name is Brian Thomas if you ever see me at an event say something!

Oh look, an Internet tough guy. /yawn



I've been playing Goblins for 16 years(even when they sucked) I know what I'm talking about unlike 99% of the retards on here. I know some people don't like it, fine whatever it's good anyway. I was just pointing out that Terminate is better than Rancor and here you go running your mouth. Can you at least agree with me on that? Sorry if playing good cards offends the gay ass Goblin gods.


Adding obscenities doesn't make your point any more valid. If anything, it just annoys people and makes them ignore you.

[Malchar]

You could try Skarrg, the Rage Pits instead of Rancor. Goblin Burrows isn't horrible either. You're gonna want to remove Port + Waste though. Looks like some lists already have.

[Avatara]

If I had to choose a non goblin removal spell than it would be Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. They only cost one mana and take care of a creature/man land for good (no Reanimate, Volraths Stronghold or other stuff).

[true story]

Oh look, an Internet tough guy. /yawn

Far from that, ask me about it in person.

@ FoulQ- I understand that people may be tired of hearing about Terminate. I don't really care honestly. Some one said what about Rancor? I was pointing out that Terminate is better. FoulQ said shut the fuck up about Terminate, but I'm the asshole for swearing a little bit?

@ Alecthar- Sarcasm is my second language, Fuck you. I might swear alot but I know what I'm talking about. Warren Intisgator may be ok, but I don't think he's going to make the deck any better. I think I'd stick with War Marshall over him.

[chokin]

I can't decide if this guy's a clever troll or not. The lack of spelling skills doesn't help.

Moving right along, against decks with Propaganda or Moat effects, I thought that's why we have SGC and Sharpshooter. You can pretty much machine gun them to death. SGC also helps for Incinerator's Goblin count.

The only non-Goblin removal spells I've ever considered:
STP
Pyrokenisis
Lightning Bolt

I don't run STP because I don't like the white splash. I don't run Bolt because it doesn't do enough. I sometimes run PK in the board because Elves is pretty popular here and being able to clear off multiple guys balances out the card disadvantage.

Right now in my Goblins build, I run 4 Weirdings, 3 Incinerator, 1 Sharpshooter. Stingscourger is epic against Tombstalker, PD, and even Goyf, so he may see some play as my meta develops more.

[ScatmanX]

I think someone is trying to get banned... =p

In my testing, Warren Instigator have been the nuts, just great.
I can´t wait to to test with the real cards.
I still think that Wastelands are not removable from the deck. Maybe I´ll bite my thong, but I really don´t think I will.
In a build with Instigator, specially with also Drivers and or Frogtosser, Port can be cutted, no worries.

[Hanni]

All of the negatives of running Daze I see as valid, and agree to a certain extent. In the case of being back land drops though, that is only temporary. Rarely do I get to make a land drop every single turn, especially once I start chaining Ringleaders, so that particular point I disagree with. By that I mean, you're only set back until you have no extra lands to play. Considering the deck cheats on mana with Lackey and Vial, it's not always that bad.

It has it's pros and cons. I don't agree with everyone shrugging it off completely, especially since it hasn't been looked at thoroughly against a gauntlet of decks, but I digress. I'll just keep playing around with it a little more and see if I can compile some decent results.

@ Jazonius & True Story


Quote:
Originally Posted by true story
I know what I'm talking about unlike 99% of the retards on here. .

You said what I was thinking. Awesome. I wish there was an invite only forum where idiots contemplating Daze and throwing the W splash out the window weren't allowed!

...and who are you guys again?

[Bardo]

Full warning to "true story" for posting spamming the DTB. True story.

Edit - Upgraded to site ban. Didn't realize that was his third warning.

[dr4g0n]

In my testing, Warren Instigator have been the nuts, just great.
I can´t wait to to test with the real cards.

Oh yeah. WI has been absolutely awesome,... but only if it can connect. Despite this, even without connecting, people tend to take it far more seriously than they have Lackey. When I drop a Lackey not on turn 1, it tends to be rather ignored, but WI gets a Swords pointed at it almost immediately.


I still think that Wastelands are not removable from the deck. Maybe I´ll bite my thong, but I really don´t think I will.
In a build with Instigator, specially with also Drivers and or Frogtosser, Port can be cutted, no worries.

I don't know about that. Port can be a real lifesaver, and so can wasteland. Working in conjunction with each other, they can help completely rip apart multi-colour decks. I'm not really leaning any one way, but I am saying that we shouldn't dismiss either option at this point...at least not without really thorough testing.

[Jayzonious]

I've posted nothing but constructive criticism. Everytime I've made a relevant point it's been ignored or dismissed completely without backing.

I guess there are more important topics like splashing blue, cutting wastelands, and including Frogtossers. :laugh:

This thread has gone from productive to completely disgusting...

[FoulQ]

I've posted nothing but constructive criticism. Everytime I've made a relevant point it's been ignored or dismissed completely without backing.

I guess there are more important topics like splashing blue, cutting wastelands, and including Frogtossers. :laugh:

This thread has gone from productive to completely disgusting...

*sigh* ok I'm bored so I'll do this.

Your first post was basically just a list. Nobody cares about plain lists.

Your posts about goblin guide were documented and people responded to them just fine.

Your question about Gemstone Caverns / Chrome Mox was answered.

You ask if anybody has splashed white for StP. Of course people have splashed white for StP. You also ask about stingscourger and question its inclusion. People aren't going to answer things and ideas that have been discussed many times before.

What Ectoplasm meant to say is basically this:
"Splashing white has statistically been the weakest choice in developed metagames between Rb/Rg/Rbg/MonoR/Rw. It obviously has its strengths but most people who have tested would agree the white splash is generally inferior. It has been discussed and you can look back in the thread if you are interested to learn more about the white splash. Hope I could help =D"

...But saying "have you read the thread it sucks" is much quicker.

And about the daze thing, well you don't see many people getting into that debate do you. And about the wasteland thing, well it is something new, you have to think about these things. Otherwise people would never have started cutting ports. It is something fresh and new which I don't care what it is, it is something new so I'm all for the discussion. We might actually make progress. Holy shit.

And if you had tested frogtosser you'd know he has his merits. Don't dismiss him so quickly. Although I personally don't play him, I don't think he is good enough, but he is definitely playable.

[Alecthar]

Oh yeah. WI has been absolutely awesome,... but only if it can connect. Despite this, even without connecting, people tend to take it far more seriously than they have Lackey. When I drop a Lackey not on turn 1, it tends to be rather ignored, but WI gets a Swords pointed at it almost immediately.

This is actually, I think, one of the subtle, but significant, factors in favor of Warren Instigator. He's so obviously powerful that it encourages your opponents to be cautious with blockers, and to target him with removal. Forcing that kind of caution for only 2 mana isn't half bad.

I've read in this thread that most regard him as a poor late-game topdeck, which is true, I suppose, depending on the board position, etc. However, I haven't observed Mogg War Marshal (the card I presume most will be replacing with WI) to be all that much better. I haven't really found myself topdecking WI and going "Wow, wish that was Mogg War Marshal."

[DomoKun]

Dear All worldwide Gobs Player,

I am from Singapore and consistent top 4 player using a RGB gob deck that I have posted earlier on in this forum. I have also tried other splashes like RB, RG, RW but still prefer the RBG for its color for sideboarding.

@lightning crafter: It amazing when you champion on matron or ringleader. Annoying and will be dealt with removal immediately. But in early turns, you just don't want to draw it.

@RW: It Viable as Plowshares is the most efficient single target removal available but agreed with other gobs player that RBG or RG or RB color has better answer.

@Frogtosser Bannernet: It is good mana reduction for early turns and with chieftain that gives haste now, the raw speed is still intact. Especially played with earwig squad can give early turn moral damage to opponent.

Recently, due to my love for goblin, I have decided to give mono red gobs for a shot. To my surprise, the result wasnt that bad as I thought, in fact, they are more damaging than before.

I can provide my list if ppl here are keen. I have played tested with tempo thresh, UW(X) landstill, BGW rock, eva and zoo. I completely gave up my matchup to combo unless i can outdmg him fast before he ANT. I have like problems with zoo and eva if the players have explosive start.

For monored:

@rishadan port: I agree it can be cut, as mono red should be more aggorish as possible but sometimes port can help with tempo when paired with wasteland. I'm playing with 3 at the moment, may try with gemstone cavern or mutavault.

@Warren instigator: It amazing and ppl can agree with me that most of the time the opponent will brake his attacker when WI is untap. However, I don't like to try him too often in the late game,thus reducing to 3 in my deck. Post board for some matchup, it will be out.

@goblin chieftain: It give the gobs a boost at the buttocks and haste. I personally felt that it must be played with 4 in a deck.

@piledriver: Even with WI be created, I personally felt that cutting piledriver to 0 is really killing the power of the deck. I won many games with this along with chieftain.

Finally I really enjoyed reading the post from different players around the world here. It really opened my eyes seeing different perspective of who gobs deck being played. Thank you for reading my post, all queries will be shortly answered.

[geosgaen0]

havent confirmed, but most likely^^

Goblin Bushwhacker
R
Creature - Goblin Warrior
Kicker - R
When Goblin Bushwhacker enters the battlefield, if it was kicked, creatures you control get +1/+0 and gain haste until end of turn.
1/1
Common

[ScatmanX]

@dr4g0n:Port can be cutted, thats a fact. There are lists that have a big black splash (like Media´s, with 4 Frogtosser, 4 WW, 3 Erawigs, 1 Mad auntie...+SB) that need better mana base for us. It also depends how you play the deck. I´m not saying for everyone to cut it, but to think about possibilities. I´m currently with 3, but after Instigator release, will drop to 1 I guess.

@FoulQ: Don´t waste so much energy in irrelevant some people/aruments. Some people just don´t change (just look what happened to true story)

@Alecthar: Agreed. Just sying WI is a bad topdeck, therefore is not playable, is nonsense. Piledriver is a bad topdeck with an empty table. Lackey is a bad topdeck. Fanatic is a bad topdeck.Frogtosser is a bad (ok) topdeck.

@DomoKun: I´d like to see your list. I have never been a great fan of Rbg, cause I really don´t know what to do with the green...
I agree with everything else you said, exept about Ports. I think that MonoRed is the only version that should mandatorily play Ports. With 23 lands, you get 4 Wastes, 4 Ports, 13 Mountains, wich is preety stable I think. MonoRed can even toy with other lands such as Mutavaults, Caverns, the new Zendikar ones...

@Goblin Bushwhacker: Wow, thats probably a good enough replace for Fanatic. Finally. Me likes.

[Media314r8]

@DomoKun: I´d like to see your list. I have never been a great fan of Rbg, cause I really don´t know what to do with the green...

@Goblin Bushwhacker: Wow, thats probably a good enough replace for Fanatic. Finally. Me likes.

The green splash is generally just for MD tin street hooligans to deal with meta with lots of stacks/jittes/annoying arts. It also allows for K grips/reverent silence in the SB if you don't want to run the extra lords against E plague, or if there are a lot of enchantress/ problematic artifacts in your meta. IMO the green splash is very light, and usually is just a matter of adding 2 taigas and some tin streets/SB cards as a meta call. It is not as significantly radical a strategic differance than RB goblins. (Ex: my old RB build with 1 auntie, 4 tosser, 3 squad, 4 wierding) Rxg goblins can function perfectly fine without ever having access to a taiga.

EDIT: @ Bushwacker: Much, MUCH better replacement for SB pyromancers for an 'all-in' feel in mono-red goblins. Still not convinced he's MD or SB material. Warrants testing in mono-R.

[DragoFireheart]

Is there a reason there are no R/U Goblin lists that run Ports, Wastelands and Stifle?

[Wargoos]

Is there a reason there are no R/U Goblin lists that run Ports, Wastelands and Stifle?

Yeah because merfok does that without needing a splash.
I mean U/R goblins?!
Is that the best you can come up with?!
Hell, I ld rather play monoR...

[from Cairo]

The Bushwhacker is interesting, but it doesn't offer something that isn't already available to us. Unfortunately it's pretty bad if played as a 1cc card (Mons Goblin Raiders), so it doesn't really help broadening the viable 1 drops. The card I feel it most parallels, or tries to compete with is Goblin Piledriver. As it's pretty much a vanilla 2cc guy that reads "increase damage if you have a bunch of Goblins in play". In the past the 2cc slot was a void in Goblins, and this creature may have been more welcome, but in present Goblins list, the 2cc slot is usually pretty crowded as is, and Warren Instigator is trying to fight it's way into the curve as well. Bushwhacker is competing for the same CC slot as so many recent Goblins: Stingscourger, Mogg War Marshall, Frogtosser Banneret, Goblin Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, Warren Weirding, BUT it's not very impressive on turn 2, where alot of the other Goblins really help apply pressure ('Gator, MWM) or advance board position (Scourger, Weirding, Banneret).

Also with the printing of Goblin Cheiftain, this card really doesn't offer much over him, so I can't really even see him being played as a 1-of. For 1 colorless mana more you get the Kicker effect to stay around full time and you get an extra power and toughness on the Goblin body. And the 1 mana shouldn't really be that relevant, because Goblin Bushwhacker again isn't good in the early game, so there isn't much benefit to him costing 2.

The positive aspect I see of all these boarderline Legacy playable Goblins seeing print is that Legacy Goblin players could play the deck in Extended again, with the Zendikar guys, and Cheiftain, MWM, Scourger, SGC, all legal, as well as the Lorowyn block black spells, the deck seems like it might be pretty viable.

[DomoKun]

@ScatmanX

This is my Mono red list:

Lands (23)
16 mountains
3 rishadan ports
4 wastelands

Spells(4)
4 Lightning bolts

Artifacts(4)
4 Aether Vials

Goblins (29)
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren instigator
4 Piledriver
4 chieftain
3 warchief
3 matron
4 ringleader
2 siegegang commander
1 kiki jiki
1 goblin king

Current SB (15):
2 Anarchy
3 pyroblast
2 pyrokinesis
3 relic
2 stingscourger
2 shattering spree
1 goblin tinkerer

I still not satisfy with the SB, in the process of tweaking. I understand ppl will question the use of bolts, but it more of a personal choice as i find it more versatile and sometimes on the head to push through the win. The mid game kiki jiki chain is fantastic. The sole king is to combat against zoo. In summary, my playgroup here is more of zoo variant, and my deck is meant more towards winning that matchup.

Any critics and queries are welcome.

[ScatmanX]

The green splash....
Yes, I know it is an light and easy to do splash. I´m just saying, I´d rather use Tinkerer instead of Hooligans, I´s rather have discard+Squad insted of Grips, even have SGC, Sharpshooters and Crafter istead of grips against Moat. I´d rather have lords (and Squad and Wort) agains´t plague.
I mean, with RB you don´t have to find non-goblin anwesers to other cards. You just build a deck that can work even if those cards are in play.

@Bushwhacker again: I like him because, aside from beeing good mid-late game, he can be dropped T1 to, say, block an opposing lackey, stop some Goyf dmg to the dome, help incinerators and piledrivers grow faster. I mean, the uses are not great, but is better than just sit there, taking dmg from Lackeys and Goyfs in the first turns.

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah because merfok does that without needing a splash.
I mean U/R goblins?!
Is that the best you can come up with?!
Hell, I ld rather play monoR...

A Merfolk Lackey doesn't exist.

A Merfolk Piledriver doesn't exist.

A Merfolk Siege-Gand Commander doesn't exist.

Hence why I am suggesting a blue splash for more mana denial.

[ScatmanX]

Yeah because merfok does that without needing a splash.
I mean U/R goblins?!
Is that the best you can come up with?!
Hell, I ld rather play monoR...

Is that the best YOU can come up with?!

@DragoFireheart: I think that adding blue to just Daze is ok, once you don´t dillute the deck very much. Once you start to toy with Stifle, then Spell Snares... I think Ringleader will loose it´s power. Haven´t test the splash to that greater extent to be sure though.

[Wargoos]

Hence why I am suggesting a blue splash for more mana denial.

This is gonna help you where?
What mu you have problems with gets better with this?

If you concentrate on disrupting your opponents manabase you have to play more non-permanent cards which let's you go out of gas more likely because you aren't getting any business online.

Also you can't abuse daze and you can't abuse force in here.

Did you thought this all through?!
Stifle is good, when you're on the play.
You need free open mana early to be able to stifle an opponents base - which denies you from going first turn lackey/vial.
Taking away your best plays for the possibilty to maybe screw the opponent, which will fail 40% of the time anyways.
And when you can play a turn 2 lackey/vial the opponent will have a goyf waiting for them.

So - why weakening the deck?

@Scatshit : alright , seriously too much trolling and stupid suggestions in this thread. Never gonna look in here again - but some more guys for ignore.

[ScatmanX]

This is gonna help you where?
What mu you have problems with gets better with this?

Also you can't abuse daze and you can't abuse force in here.

Did you thought this all through?!

So - why weakening the deck?

@Scatshit : alright , seriously too much trolling and stupid suggestions in this thread. Never gonna look in here again - but some more guys for ignore.

I was going to anweser, but then saw the edit.
Byebye.

[from Cairo]

@Bushwhacker again: I like him because, aside from beeing good mid-late game, he can be dropped T1 to, say, block an opposing lackey, stop some Goyf dmg to the dome, help incinerators and piledrivers grow faster. I mean, the uses are not great, but is better than just sit there, taking dmg from Lackeys and Goyfs in the first turns.

I agree it can be good to have something to buy some time in the early game.

But besides staring down a turn 1 Lackey on the draw (which Caverns can sometimes mitigate), I prefer Mogg War Marshall for the set up / stall sort of role. Since it fogs 3 Goyf attacks, or buffs Piledriver by +4/+0, or adds +2 dmg to Incinerator, or gets buffed from 2 -> 4 dmg by a Lord, etc.

Goblin Bushwhacker can sort of fill the Lord/Pyromancer role, and alternatively can sort of fill the stall / buff Goblin count role, but it doesn't do either very well, so personally I'd rather run 2 cards that do each of those jobs better, than 1 card that does a worse job at each of them.

[ScatmanX]

I'd rather run 2 cards that do each of those jobs better, than 1 card that does a worse job at each of them.

You´re probably right here. I just want to get a 1cc goblin that I like so bad, it´s fogging my sight.

[DragoFireheart]

There are no really good 1-CC goblins besides Lackey. Most of them are just... so bad.

I dunno, there really isn't too much room for suggestion for Goblins: what's viable is basically what has "Creature- Goblin" on the card.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Prolly answered like 8 years ago... but why isn't goblin soothsayer played, especially in a deck with the new lord, wort, siege gang, etc. ?

[rsaunder]

Prolly answered like 8 years ago... but why isn't goblin soothsayer played, especially in a deck with the new lord, wort, siege gang, etc. ?

Seems win more. I'd rather play pyromancer for the alpha strike.

[from Cairo]

Prolly answered like 8 years ago... but why isn't goblin soothsayer played, especially in a deck with the new lord, wort, siege gang, etc. ?

He's yet another card that requires you to have extended a ton onto the board before he's doing anything, and is an irrelevant 1cc 1/1 when you're not in a dominant position.

Soothsayer suffers the same problem as Bushwhacker, and to a lesser degree Piledriver, they all require you to have guys in play and are horrible by themselves. As a result they are really bad when you're trying to mount a second offensive, or need to top deck some raw power. Also like Bushwhacker there isn't much incentive to run Soothsayer over a Lord effect, his ability isn't good early so getting into play turn 1 isn't that important. One is better off playing relevant early game cards, then curving into the Lords when you've normally put enough guys onto the board to make the pump worthwhile.

Goblins as a Tribe has a huge selection of powerful card advantage creatures to chose from. The raw power of each of them makes them viable as a threat, and the fact that they all work together with such synergy is what's put it at DTB. There is really no reason to be diluting one's 75 with situational pump effects, when the deck can just sit back and churn out card advantage from Turn 3 on. The format hasn't really presented the deck with a need to have 11-12 1cc spells. While "Mountain, go" leaves something to be desired, I'd much rather be running 4 Lackey 4 Vial, and saying "Mountain, go" from time to time, knowing that the deck picks up steam turn 2-4, than be playing sub optimal cards for the sake of having 1 drops.

[Jayzonious]

Seeing as zoo is being played more than ever, do we have any sideboard options that swing that matchup dramatically in our favor?

Goblin King?

[FoulQ]

The zoo matchup was discussed extensively earlier and actually I got my ass kicked by Eldariel about it.

Pyrokinesis and Stingscourger are two of the best cards for the matchup. Search up zoo for more info than that.

About the green splash: Currently what I'm running, I am a huge advocate. Well, it is basically monored. It was the best performing version of the deck at GP:Chicago, if anyone cares about that anymore. Tin Street Hooligan is my favorite card in the mirror match, he is great against any deck that tries to abuse jitte and/or vial, which there are rising numbers of imo. Fish, Merfolk, Goblins, Faeries, occasional rogues like CSlivers, etc. IMO he is better than tinkerer because he is reactive rather than proactive. You can search back in the thread for more info on that, but this debate has been discussed intensively. The 2/1 vs 1/2 body has made a significant difference for me countless times as well.

Krosan grip is a *safe* card. I wouldn't say it is bombtastic in the deck, but I'm looking for a consistent finish out of my goblins deck rather than raw power. Krosan grip is for those strategies where player skill can become a nonfactor, and I want to rely on player skill. So it is a card that I like for making the game more about skill and less about landing moat/scepterchant.

Depending on the amount of lords you run to fight plague, that takes up a lot of space. I am currently going 0-2 MD Chieftain, and I would need more SB to effectively fight plague. Is plague super relevant? No. But I want player skill to be the defining factor of the game rather than bombs my opponent gets lucky with, since honestly I think goblins is very consistent if it is played in a certain way. Add on that I like combo hate in my sideboard, that leaves little room for SB lords.

There are a couple other sideboard gems in green. Compost is good if you have a sudden infestation of black decks. I experienced this a little bit ago, and I've actually had some trouble against decks like eva green and sui black with goblins. Choke is close to auto win versus a lot of blue decks (obv) but can be a little narrow. I like to run x2 in my SB sometimes and only board in against more controllish decks (mainly countertop and canadian) as a way of getting a surprising win once in a while. Because very few will expect choke out of your SB. Canadian will be more worried about stopping your waste/port combo so they will not try to cut you off green that much. I do not board in choke against merfolk because it is win-more definitely there and they have vial if they really need to get around it, so its not worth the dilution of ringleader in that case. Same with other blue-based aggro decks like fish and faeries.

In versions without port I would probably advocate against Rg or MonoR but I haven't looked into this enough to really say. If WI is as good as predicted, than I think Rb will be the wave of the future, although I might just stick with what has been reliable for me in just flat out winning games.

[Media314r8]

Seeing as zoo is being played more than ever, do we have any sideboard options that swing that matchup dramatically in our favor?

Goblin King?

Relic does some damage, as it shuts off their lavamancers if it comes down fast enough, shrinks goyf, and slows knight's growth. I rarely crack it unless put in dire straights or am able to kill an attacking goyf in the process. It's not as swingy as you'd hope, as they still have 10 fetches, 15ish burn/removal spells, and KotR to feed their bin, but it helps. If you run black, Mad aunties have been huge in this MU for me, assuming you don't just run her out there sans haste. Vialing her in to save a chieftain or attacking driver/squad has been huge, though she usually bites it to a burn spell as soon as one can be mustered. She aids in tricks and getting you to the mid-late game, where you should have the advantage.

[from Cairo]

Seeing as zoo is being played more than ever, do we have any sideboard options that swing that matchup dramatically in our favor?

Goblin King?

For Mono Red, as mentioned already, Stingscourger can be really big, especially if Vial'd in with another defender on board, you can often trade him for a small guy and bounce a big threat, gaining alot of tempo. Similarly, I've found Mogg War Marshall to be really good in this match also, even when he's just buying time, soaking up Nacatl hits keeps you out of burn range when you start to take control in the mid game.

Sideboard I have 2 Boartusk Liege, 2 Jitte and/or 3 Relic if they're a GY heavy build.

[Jayzonious]

Boartusk Liege with the combination of Relic seems pretty good.

What are your thoughts on running Boartusk Liege MD in the spots of Chieftain (I current have 3 slots dedicated to this in my build).

Although if MD seems to be a bad idea I guess I could drop my 2x REB? SB space is kind of tight :frown:

[Media314r8]

What are your thoughts on running Boartusk Liege MD in the spots of Chieftain

I would only advocate this if your meta is rife with E plagues and you're running mono-red with 4 warchiefs, but even then I prefer the haste and lower CMC of chieftain to the larger ass and manacost of leige.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Boartusk Liege with the combination of Relic seems pretty good.

What are your thoughts on running Boartusk Liege MD in the spots of Chieftain (I current have 3 slots dedicated to this in my build).

Although if MD seems to be a bad idea I guess I could drop my 2x REB? SB space is kind of tight :frown:

As someone who hasn't tested much using the deck, but has tested against it a fair amount and understands how it plays, I think the question of Liege versus Chieftain has to do with how many problems you have with damage-based sweepers like Pyroclasm, Firespout, etc. If these aren't too big in your area, Boartusk Liege could be good, but it seems like you might still be giving up having a quicker clock and more explosive beats, since Chieftain is cheaper and gives haste. Another point in Chieftain's favor is he protects your dudes against Engineered Plague at the same converted mana cost as Plague itself.

However, if you find it's useful to have a pumper creature who himself has a fat ass, you already get enough haste effects from Warchief, and you don't find the extra red mana to get in your way with having a quick clock or curving out effectively, then I'd say go ahead and run Boartusk Liege. I realize the haste from Chieftain can often be a redundant effect in this deck, since Warchief is auto-include. Also, +1/+2 and trample isn't bad for just one red mana more.

It may look a little messy on paper, but you could always do some kind of 2/1 split between Chieftain and Liege anyhow and see how it plays...

[Jayzonious]

That's exactly what I have down on paper. A Split of them. The curve seems a bit sloppy, and the sideboard has yet to be completed. Anyways, I'm looking at this:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Warren Instigator
3 Siege-gang Commander
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Boartusk Liege


Tribal Sorcerys
3 Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares

21
Basic Lands

6 Mountain

Lands
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin King
2 Thorn of Amethyst**
3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast**
1 Pyroblast **
2 Magus Of The Moon**
1 Goblin Tinkerer **

**Not sure of including

Obviously geared towards having a good matchup against Zoo

[from Cairo]

As someone who hasn't tested much using the deck, but has tested against it a fair amount and understands how it plays, I think the question of Liege versus Chieftain has to do with how many problems you have with damage-based sweepers like Pyroclasm, Firespout, etc. If these aren't too big in your area, Boartusk Liege could be good, but it seems like you might still be giving up having a quicker clock and more explosive beats, since Chieftain is cheaper and gives haste. Another point in Chieftain's favor is he protects your dudes against Engineered Plague at the same converted mana cost as Plague itself.

However, if you find it's useful to have a pumper creature who himself has a fat ass, you already get enough haste effects from Warchief, and you don't find the extra red mana to get in your way with having a quick clock or curving out effectively, then I'd say go ahead and run Boartusk Liege. I realize the haste from Chieftain can often be a redundant effect in this deck, since Warchief is auto-include. Also, +1/+2 and trample isn't bad for just one red mana more.

It may look a little messy on paper, but you could always do some kind of 2/1 split between Chieftain and Liege anyhow and see how it plays...

Yea I run 2 Chieftain in the main as I agree that they are more practical when you're not facing hate. And having additional haste granters is great, much more relevant than having the 3/4 trampling body. The Lieges are in the board since they are clunkier. They're mostly there because unlike Goblin King and Goblin Chieftain they address Canadian Thresh's Pyroclasms and Zoo's Volcanic Fallouts post board, which locally see more play than Engineered Plague, granted they address those too. They also have the added perk of versus other Tribal/mirror decks you have a full set of Lords post board.

Since I've been referencing my list in several posts I may as well post it...




4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshall
2 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Gemstone Caverns

sb: 3 Relic of Progenitus
sb: 2 Pithing Needle
sb: 2 Shattering Spree
sb: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
sb: 2 Pillage
sb: 2 Boartusk Liege
sb: 1 Lightning Crafter
sb: 1 Goblin Pyromancer

[ScatmanX]

If you´re in white, and zoo is that mush of a problem, you could run Warmth.
Instead of Thorn you can add more Spot Removal.

I have a meta where I always face a monoblack, a zoo, a goblins, and a dredge in a champ.
Since we´re discussing sb´s, my Rb sb is as follows:

3- Knesis - Good against Goblin and Dredge (dont like against zoo).
4- Relics - Good against Zoo and Dredge.
2- Tinkerer - Good against Goblins.
2- Boartusk Liege- Good against Goblins, Monoblack and Goblins.
1- Sharpshooter - Good against Goblins and Dredge.
2- Magus of the Moon - Testing
1- Dontknow.

Main deck i have 4 fanatics (goblins and dredge), 1 Wort (monoblack, goblins), 3 Squad (monoblack), 1 Auntie and 1 Crafter (goblins, zoo).
Combo I´ve forgotten, and blue I tend to win already.
What do you guys think?
Is perish good for SB?
What about Cabal Therapy?

[Nessaja]

The flavor text on Goblin Bushwacker is BRILLIANT (I know it won't be the real one)

"I'm gonna let you finish, but Goblin Guide is one of the best Goblins of all time.
OF ALL TIME."
Anyway... the card itsself has the Kicker syndrome in that it can't function out of a vial where as its an effect you would want to use as a surprise. It's also not a replacement for Mogg Fanatic as it's essentially a 2 drop.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

*List*

Obviously geared towards having a good matchup against Zoo

I'm not sure if you really need to be in green just for Krosan Grip. I understand it's better than Disenchant/ Seal of Cleansing/ etc, but is it really so much better that it's worth splashing two colors instead of one?

Personally I think Seal of Cleansing is decent, I would experiment with it and see if it can fill in for Krosan Grip... Because, you know, non-basic hate defines the format and yadda yadda and all that...

[FoulQ]

I agree with DDK. It isn't worth going 3 colors solely for krosan grip if you are already playing white. I'm not sure you necessarily need artifact/enchant hate, I'd probably just skip it with Rw or MonoR.

[Jayzonious]

I think I agree on the idea that splashing green simply for Krosan Grip isn't worth it, especially if you're running the white splash.

Now I just have to play test whether to run Seal of Cleansing or Disenchant. I have to admit I'm leaning towards disenchant on this one. Under the right circumstances Seal of Cleansing stands out as better, but I feel that it is too situational.

After your responses and doing some more research, I refined my SB if anyone wants to check it out. I decided to add Ports since dropping the 2nd splash color. I must admit Path of Exile seems counter productive in the mana denial strategy, but Swords is also counter productive on getting your opponent to zero life.

3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin King
3 Disenchant
2 Magus Of The Moon
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

The fact that you can vial in Magus Of The Moon against 3/4 color Countertop/Dreadstill seems amazing, even if it isn't a goblin. Goblins had success with Bloodmoon in the past, and the potential for it be uncounterable seems worthy of 2 SB spots. (See SCG 5k Charlotte 5th Place)

[Media314r8]

Now I just have to play test whether to run Seal of Cleansing or Disenchant. I have to admit I'm leaning towards disenchant on this one. Under the right circumstances Seal of Cleansing stands out as better, but I feel that it is too situational.


I assume you aren't trying to kill counterbalances with your disenchant effect, so I would run serenity over either if you aren't worried about your spell being CB'd/countered in general. During the brief period I ran Rw goblins, 3 serenity-s in the SB really shored up the stacks, affinity, and enchantress MUs. I see few reasons why disenchant is better, as goblins hardly ever cares about instant-speed artifact or enchantment removal, lest it's on a jitte, and you have tinkerer+chieftain for that.

EDIT: if you want to get around the CB curve, and/or kill merfolk/utility bears wielding jittes, you could try out orim's thunder. It would be one hell of a blowout against faerie/dragon stompy decks as well. You think that SoFi equipped fella's gonna go the distance just because you set chalice at one, eh'? Orim's thunder ya' motherfucking gathan raiders! EAT IT bitch! ... please please please don't let that last card in your hand be a SSG...

[Jayzonious]

I guess it would be to combat Engineered Plague, Counterbalance, and Humility? Seems like removing SB slots to defend plague with 5 Lord effects MD is over kill. Chances are it will get countered if CB is up and running, this is where Seal of Cleansing is better if it hits the board before CB, but I have REB's to ideally stop CB. Maybe it isn't worth the slots at all as stated before, or could maybe drop it down to 2?

[Mystical_Jackass]

Total reach, but sorta an idea I thought of:

Rg Goblins:

4 lackey
4 tattermunge maniac

4 vexing shusher (SB only?)
3 Wort, the Raidmother (replace Siege-gang?)

3 Natural Order
1 Projenitus

Rest standard spells...

I actually think its an ok idea to tell the truth, the rest of the deck would be filled with the same staple choices, just gives that alt win condition with Projen, one of most broken mini-combos in game. I suggested wort over Siege 'cause of synergy with NO of course, and conspire ability is pretty killer when you can tap-out the two tokens then sac both with conspire, search your library for Proj & second Wort :)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Total reach, but sorta an idea I thought of:

Rg Goblins:

4 lackey
4 tattermunge maniac

4 vexing shusher (SB only?)
3 Wort, the Raidmother (replace Siege-gang?)

3 Natural Order
1 Projenitus

Rest standard spells...

I actually think its an ok idea to tell the truth, the rest of the deck would be filled with the same staple choices, just gives that alt win condition with Projen, one of most broken mini-combos in game. I suggested wort over Siege 'cause of synergy with NO of course, and conspire ability is pretty killer when you can tap-out the two tokens then sac both with conspire, search your library for Proj & second Wort :)

This seems like a bit too much of a stretch. Raidmother and Tattermunge just seem like subpar cards to run in those slots, and even with them in there I think it would be a bit of a bitch to get off N.O. Mungey is gonna get chump blocked before you sacrifice him a lot of the time, you have to cheat Wort into play, and you need double green mana to cast N.O. in the first place.

I just really don't think this is the right deck to try to squeeze Progenitus into.

[Hanni]

I've been thinking alot about the Pyrokinesis in my board. The purpose of it is against fast aggro like Goyf Sligh, Zoo, Elves, and so forth. What I'm wondering is... would Jitte be better? The freeness of Pyro is awesome, yes, and allows a huge tempo boost for us to race them early on. However, pitching a card is sometimes a bitch and it's a 1-shot effect. Would Jitte work better? It's slower and does require a Gob in play, but with so many Goblins, I think that we should easily be able to support that. It acts as removal, makes our guys superior to theirs, and is life gain against Goyf Sligh, and to a lesser extent, Zoo, which could be pivitol. Thoughts?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I've been thinking alot about the Pyrokinesis in my board. The purpose of it is against fast aggro like Goyf Sligh, Zoo, Elves, and so forth. What I'm wondering is... would Jitte be better? The freeness of Pyro is awesome, yes, and allows a huge tempo boost for us to race them early on. However, pitching a card is sometimes a bitch and it's a 1-shot effect. Would Jitte work better? It's slower and does require a Gob in play, but with so many Goblins, I think that we should easily be able to support that. It acts as removal, makes our guys superior to theirs, and is life gain against Goyf Sligh, and to a lesser extent, Zoo, which could be pivitol. Thoughts?

Seems good. I'm a fan of the fork of death, and it's easy to run it in an aggro/mid-range deck like this one.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Lack of evasion says bad idea to me. No flying, landwalk, etc. so not mana efficient IMHO

Jitte seems like it's best in decks where you're trying to get 'more with less', like equipping a Sea Drake.. or a suntail hawk; but less good in creature combo decks like Slivers that get strength/synergy in numbers.

[Hanni]

Very true, but pitching a Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Lackey... hell, even a Gempalm Incinerator to establish Jitte Counters, seems worth it.

Plus for those versions running Warren Instigator... wow.

Just sayin, I'm on the fence about the card. Was just wondering everyone's input, but I'll likely try out both to determine for myself what I think works better.

[Nizmox]

I decided to add Ports since dropping the 2nd splash color. I must admit Path of Exile seems counter productive in the mana denial strategy, but Swords is also counter productive on getting your opponent to zero life.

I think Ports may become even more valuable when enemy fetchlands are released since people will be more easily able to fetch basics.
I agree, I think Path of Exile is a bad choice in goblins.

[GreenOne]

Very true, but pitching a Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Lackey... hell, even a Gempalm Incinerator to establish Jitte Counters, seems worth it.

Plus for those versions running Warren Instigator... wow.
The fact is that jitte becomes a useful card on turn 4 usually. By that time we should start our drawing engine and get the advantage. We need a card that gets an edge early in the game while not being useless in the mid-late game. Kinesis fill this role nicely.

I'd love to play it with double strike though. Maybe we can just play a couple jittes and 3 kinesis?