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Avatara
09-16-2009, 03:28 AM
Wont we waste a lot of mana/momentum if they simply keep removing the creatures that we equip Jitte onto?

P.S.
09-16-2009, 05:50 AM
Recent testing has led me to believe that I no longer like Gempalm Incinerator, at least mainboard, and will be removing him. Cycling to remove a dude and get a new card is all well and dandy...except it never removes dudes in Legacy anymore because they're all so freakin' big nowadays! Stupid Tarmogoyfs. I can deal combat damage and then remove a dude with cycling but that's annoying because I'm still losing my guy.

I'm also finding that I hardly ever use Wasteland on straight mana-producing lands anymore. I never want to Waste their Volcanic Island, for example, because I would rather have the Wasteland for a colorless mana so I can play my Goblin Warchief next turn, or something similar. I only use Wastelands anymore for cards like Mishra's Factory, Treetop Village or Mutavault. I don't play mana denial with Goblins hardly at all. Probably why I cut the Ports forever ago.

Turn one Æther Vial is always the right play. I used to contemplate a lot between Goblin Lackey or Æther Vial if they were both in my opening hand on the play but I have come to the conclusion that Vial is always the right play. It's harder to deal with, gives you more tempo, and you can "instantly" put the Lackey into play at EOT later when you think it'll get through. I almost want to mulligan if there's not a Vial in my opening hand. Maybe this was already apparent to everyone else as the metagame shifted.

I still think the only way to play this deck is mono-red. I wish more people would playtest with Crevasses so I could hear more opinions on it other than just my testing with it. I've been playing it for years. :frown:

Alecthar
09-16-2009, 06:22 AM
P.S., I'm curious as to what you're playing instead of Incinerator. You're apparently Mono-Red, so what's going in that slot? Non-Goblin spells like Lightning Bolt or Pyrokinesis? As I see it, even though Gempalm isn't as good as he used to be, he's still the best thing available for Mono-Red in that slot. Non-Goblin spells are suboptimal, given Ringleader and Matron, and because you're mono-red, you clearly aren't rolling with Weirding.

I'm not saying Gempalm is great, but it does seem like the best option we've got.

P.S.
09-16-2009, 06:25 AM
No, I just replaced Incinerator with Stingscourger for now.

My list is on page 150. Changes made since then are Instigators in the Fanatic slot and Stingscourgers in the Incinerator slot.

Alecthar
09-16-2009, 08:14 AM
Your list retains the feel of the older, more toolbox-like lists I remember playing with success a couple years ago, before Tarmogoyf made it's way into Magic. I like that you're rolling with a Kiki-Jiki, I actually have a 1/1 split on SGC/Kiki-Jiki in my current list, simply because I love him so damn much. I'm running a full set of Chieftains, though, with 3 of both Incinerator and Stingscourger.

GreenOne
09-16-2009, 08:51 AM
Your list retains the feel of the older, more toolbox-like lists I remember playing with success a couple years ago, before Tarmogoyf made it's way into Magic. I like that you're rolling with a Kiki-Jiki, I actually have a 1/1 split on SGC/Kiki-Jiki in my current list, simply because I love him so damn much. I'm running a full set of Chieftains, though, with 3 of both Incinerator and Stingscourger.
I guess no Instigators in here?

FoulQ
09-16-2009, 10:48 AM
Firstly, natural order is cute, but obviously bad.

Jitte has also been proven to be terrible.

@ PS: About six months ago I was at 2 incinerators thinking the same thing as you. However in today's meta I'm seeing a lot more creatures, zoo/merfolk/goblins are all as popular as ever. I'm rocking 4 right now in all my non-black lists. Sometimes 3.

Wasteland is going to lose some of its power without port, which I see you are not playing. I've found mana denial to be an excellent strategy for goblins and it has probably won me more games than anything. But I can see ports being cut to support the many RR costs that are coming about nowadays. I just feel like the mana denial makes the deck more well-rounded and I don't want the deck to become too one-dimensional. Then again I have a lot of control in my meta.

I agree that vial is very often the better choice than lackey. However, there are some situations where I'd rather have lackey. Two matches that immediately come to mind are storm and against MUC. Mana Denial + Vial isn't going to be effective against MUC and they will have to expend a lot of resources to immediately answer the lackey. I'm sure there are a couple other decks where I'd want lackey first, such as if I'm intentionally baiting a daze and I'll have enough time to garner tempo from vial that is also in my hand, but I can't think of those other situations right now.

I think MonoRed is definitely not the only way you have to go. Splashing a second color does not make the manabase that much more susceptible to wasteland/PoP/stifle and really opens up sideboard options for some of the bad matchups. Also, some cards like krosan grip helps deal with random board control bullshit like humility that pops out from time to time.

GreenOne
09-16-2009, 10:58 AM
I think MonoRed is definitely not the only way you have to go. Splashing a second color does not make the manabase that much more susceptible to wasteland/PoP/stifle and really opens up sideboard options for some of the bad matchups. Also, some cards like krosan grip helps deal with random board control bullshit like humility that pops out from time to time.
I can see the benefits in splashing. However, I don't get how you don't get susceptible to Stifle/Waste. Maybe it's just that I live in a world made of tempo decks more than anybody else prolly, but I do think Stifle and Waste are highly relevant cards.

Alecthar
09-16-2009, 10:58 AM
I guess no Instigators in here?

Depends on whether or not I'm playtesting them. When I am, I have 3 Chieftains and 2 Stingscourgers. And no Mogg War Marshals.

FoulQ
09-16-2009, 11:03 AM
THAT much more susceptible. My meta has plenty plenty of wasteland, but not quite as much stifle. Personally I think it is worth it to have an improved sideboard against 50% of the field to have the 15% of the field with stifles SOMETIMES hit my fetches. And setting someone back a land drop to wasteland me is usually not that big of a problem (usually they waste a port anyway) unless they have a vial out, which is two decks: merfolk and the mirror. Merfolk I'm not worried about, and most goblins lists I see sadly play less lands than me (I play 23-24). And with 4 gempalms and 2 TSH maindeck along with 3+ years of playing the deck I feel pretty prepared for the mirror match.

Not to say I'm not a big fan of the mountain manabase. I love MonoRed. But I like my diverse sideboard too.

Tacosnape
09-16-2009, 11:06 AM
Just my ten cents on Jitte. Jitte is a 4-drop. Pyrokinesis is a 0-drop instant. This is why Pyrokinesis > Jitte in this deck.

DomoKun
09-16-2009, 12:06 PM
As for mono red, i felt gempalm can be replaced by bolts. After many testing, the ringleader pitching wasnt a issue.

I agree with foulQ that many of a times vial will be preferred but at times if i want to force through damage i will land lackey first.

For example: if i play first against control or combo, i will land lackey first. On the play, i will not play vial and walk into daze.

For aggro deck: most of the times will be vial first.

Playing with lackey first will also depend whether there is anything to chain with it.

Some questions to ask:

Is it worth packing SB for combo?
Between chalice and thorns of ameth. , which is better and proven?

Joe_C
09-16-2009, 12:28 PM
I plan on playing this weekend in a heavy zoo/goyf sligh meta and would like some input on the board/maindeck that some of the more season players have.. Ive played goblins before in tournaments but this was before warren weirding was even printed so Im a little behind on boarding and some choices. here is my list

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
14 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Stingscourger

SB:
4 Relic of Progentitus
1 Goblin King
2 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

I dont expect to see combo so Im giving up in that matchup and not boarding for it at all.

recommened boardings for Zoo, Goyf Sligh, Merfolk? Should fanatic just become war marshal? Fanatics still come in handy in many situations.

P.S.
09-16-2009, 12:32 PM
I've found mana denial to be an excellent strategy for goblins and it has probably won me more games than anything.
Other than against Zoo, which sometimes you can cut off a color, I don't like trying mana denial because every deck is so fast with a low curve. If I Waste a nonbasic and then Port a dual on their upkeep it doesn't really matter when they can just tap two and drop a 'Goyf. Ya know? That's why I'm not a fan of it. Plus, almost every deck plays Wasteland and playing with Rishadan Port I was just giving them a target. As it stands now, their only play is to Waste my Waste which is not really amazing.

As for the Lackey/Vial discussion, my testing has shown to me that Vial is the right play. Of course there's going to be scenarios where the Lackey would be better, like against ANT, but if I'm on the play in the first game, unless they're really bad at shuffling, I am not going to know what they're playing. So I'm playing the Vial because percentage wise, it's the better play against more decks. That was what I was getting at.

@Domokun: I play Chalice for ANT. It's not amazing but it can give me enough time.

DomoKun
09-16-2009, 12:59 PM
@Joe_C: I felt you should just remove the 2 mogg fanatic and up 1 mountain and 1 stingscourger. I felt that since you are playing with 4 chieftain, probably need to watch your double red source. Just my advice.

At this moment I feel that we need to replace zoo as the top aggro deck in the environment. I love wizard giving us Warren I but i still think that they should give us a good goblin removal to solve goyf problem. What do you ppl think?

@P.S: Thank you for your advice. I guess thorn will just be too slow and chalice at least stops 1cc or 0cc.

Mystical_Jackass
09-16-2009, 01:08 PM
I love wizard giving us Warren I but i still think that they should give us a good goblin removal to solve goyf problem

Not exactly the answer, but Meekstone?

DragoFireheart
09-16-2009, 01:26 PM
Not exactly the answer, but Meekstone?

Meekstone isn't a goblin.

Ranarion
09-16-2009, 01:28 PM
Other than against Zoo, which sometimes you can cut off a color, I don't like trying mana denial because every deck is so fast with a low curve. If I Waste a nonbasic and then Port a dual on their upkeep it doesn't really matter when they can just tap two and drop a 'Goyf. Ya know? That's why I'm not a fan of it. Plus, almost every deck plays Wasteland and playing with Rishadan Port I was just giving them a target. As it stands now, their only play is to Waste my Waste which is not really amazing.

But against Landstill or other controldecks you can waste their dual and tap the other to delay their massremoval. This can win you games.

Mystical_Jackass
09-16-2009, 01:53 PM
Meekstone isn't a goblin.

I always thought the artifact was a goblin.. call me crazy >.<

neither is pyrokinesis, bolt, or half the other ideas ppl had to deal with thresh, zoo, goyf, w/e are goblins too?

The point was that it could allow you to stall them out while you just outswarm them or force them to dig up a Kgrip to deal with it, which may buy you time anyways.

Sry not trying to be condescending but ppl shoot ideas down and I don't think they seem to put any thought into it at all

P.S.
09-16-2009, 02:02 PM
But against Landstill or other control decks you can waste their dual and tap the other to delay their mass removal. This can win you games.

Are you really running into a lot of this in the current meta because I'm certainly not.

I mean, if I run into U/W control with STP, WoG, Moat/Humility, etc. I'm just going to shake their hand and say "gg" if Vial doesn't carry me all the way...but who is taking that deck to a tournament nowadays? Antonio Escamilla? I'm not worried about that deck. I care about ANT, Zoo, Merfolk, Thresh and Dreadstill. Not forgetting to at least include a couple of SB slots for any Dredge that might pop up too. No deck is going to have good sideboard, let alone match-ups, for 100% of the field.

ScatmanX
09-16-2009, 05:49 PM
they should give us a good goblin removal to solve goyf problem. What do you ppl think?

Play Rb and Warren Weirdings. Really.
You can matron for it, and you can Wort it, so you virtually always has more WW´s that they have goyf´s.

GreenOne
09-16-2009, 06:21 PM
I mean, if I run into U/W control with STP, WoG, Moat/Humility, etc. I'm just going to shake their hand and say "gg" if Vial doesn't carry me all the way...but who is taking that deck to a tournament nowadays? Antonio Escamilla? I'm not worried about that deck. I care about ANT, Zoo, Merfolk, Thresh and Dreadstill.
I know nothing about Terre Haute's meta, but since Landstill is a Deck to Beat, putting up double Dreadstill Top8s, I don't see it strange to worry about Wrath, Moat, Humility and Elspeth. I'm currently running a couple copies of Anarchy in the SB (savage sex pistol cover?) just for those and the random progenitus/confinament/stax/D&T.

FoulQ
09-16-2009, 06:30 PM
As for mono red, i felt gempalm can be replaced by bolts. After many testing, the ringleader pitching wasnt a issue.

Is it worth packing SB for combo?
Between chalice and thorns of ameth. , which is better and proven?

The problem with the bolts and to some extent StP is post sideboard you may be potentially bringing in more nongoblins and want to keep that removal. Than some serious ringleader consistency issues arise when there is less than 28 goblins.

And it has already been answered, but chalice > thorn, because chalice can be brought is less narrow for other matchups and you can lay it at 0cc and attempt to goldfish.

P.S.
09-16-2009, 06:56 PM
I know nothing about Terre Haute's meta, but since Landstill is a Deck to Beat, putting up double Dreadstill Top8s, I don't see it strange to worry about Wrath, Moat, Humility and Elspeth. I'm currently running a couple copies of Anarchy in the SB (savage sex pistol cover?) just for those and the random progenitus/confinament/stax/D&T.

There's not really a Terre Haute metagame, honestly. I have to travel to play in tournaments the majority of the time. Most of my playtesting recently has been via Magic Workstation, unfortunately. The people I play with, we're all on drastically different schedules so it's hard to all get together at the same place at the same time. As a whole, we're big fans of ANT and Dreadstill. I messed around with Merfolk for awhile but I think it's a metadeck. Goblins is the deck I know the best and have played the longest. There's a local card shop where they tinker around with Legacy every Wednesday but they're not the highest caliber players.

Mantis
09-16-2009, 07:23 PM
My view on some of the issues raised.

Combo:
If you pack hate for Combo do it properly otherwise you are still going to lose. By this I mean: 4 Chalice and 4 REB and have 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Port in the maindeck. Do everything to make your deck faster, that means board out Ringleaders and your creature removal for your pump effects post side. I cant give specific pointers but I board like this:

-2 Relic (all of my maindeck Relics), -4 Gempalm, -3 Ringleader, -1 War Marshal
+4 REB, +4 Chalice, +1 Tinkerer, +1 Boartusk Liege

Splashing:
I still highly recommend anyone to stay away from splashing. Relic or Stingscourger solve the Goyf problem just as well without making you vunerable to Moon effects, Wasteland, Stifle, Price of Progress etc.
There is no current problem that can't be fixed in mono red, other colors do offer some more efficient answers but this slight boost in efficiency comes at the very steep price of being vunerable to all the afformentioned issues.

Pyrokinesis:
Pyrokinesis should only be played in the sideboard if your metagame contains lots of Zoo and Goblins. If this is not the case, you are better off using your slots on other cards. It's worse than REB against Merfolk really. I didn't like Jitte the few times I played around with it, it's generally too slow and you have other things to spend your mana on. Also, the matchups you want to bring it in are generally playing quite a lot of spot removal and our creatures aren't really hard to remove.

Malchar
09-16-2009, 07:59 PM
1. Since a number of lists are getting shaken up right now, I'm going to reintroduce the idea of using Goblin Razerunners in the sideboard. This is a potent multipurpose card for a mono-red build. It works well against Engineered Plague, Pyroclasm, Tarmogoyf, and Moat. This leaves the rest of the slots in the sideboard available to cover Ad Nauseam and Ichorid.

2. I've been playing Goblins for a number of years now, and I've always considered the Threshold/Counter-Top match-up to be at least 50/50. I don't fear it nearly as much as I fear running into random board control jank like Rifter. I always bring graveyard hate in my sideboard, but I never really feel like I need to use it against these Tarmogoyf-toting decks. What do you side out against Thresh/Counter-Top in order to bring in Relic of Progenitus?

Humphrey
09-16-2009, 08:42 PM
1. I think Razerunners are crap

2. I side Relic vs. Fanatics and Incinerators obviously

Jayzonious
09-16-2009, 10:15 PM
I'd like to think I'd side out either my 3 instigators for relic against tempothresh, less spell snare/fire targets.

FoulQ
09-16-2009, 10:39 PM
I'd like to think I'd side out either my 3 instigators for relic against tempothresh, less spell snare/fire targets.

It might be irrelevant, but if you are not playing warren weirding they will probably be siding out spell snare against you anyway.

Jayzonious
09-16-2009, 10:42 PM
True that

Jayzonious
09-17-2009, 12:31 AM
I rather correct myself than seeming like an idiot.

Replacing Gempalm Incinerators with Relic would be more effective than Warren Instigator Vs. Tempo Thresh. They run 8 creatures, 4 untargetable, the other 4 (Goyfs) you would need like 5+ gobs in play for it to kill, which would make it quite "win more".

Hands down the proper choice.

DomoKun
09-17-2009, 03:40 AM
@Jay: I feel u shldnt sb gempalm with relic. I played my list with a temp thresh, many of a time WI got fire/ice. I feel since u r using relic , u are actually lower the requirement to kill goyf with gempalm. I probably siding in 2-3 relic for that MU. Peace :smile:

GreenOne
09-17-2009, 04:00 AM
2. I've been playing Goblins for a number of years now, and I've always considered the Threshold/Counter-Top match-up to be at least 50/50. I don't fear it nearly as much as I fear running into random board control jank like Rifter. I always bring graveyard hate in my sideboard, but I never really feel like I need to use it against these Tarmogoyf-toting decks. What do you side out against Thresh/Counter-Top in order to bring in Relic of Progenitus?
I don't side Relic against countertop, unless they're running Geese too. If they're playing Monk, Pridemage, Hierarc, predator, I usually side Kinesis and some number of Red Blasts if I run them.

Against UGr Canadian I go -3 Gempalm, -1 Scourger, +4 Relic. You want to maximize the number of relics, cause if you open with one or two, you often don't need to brake it to leave them with 0/1 cards in the graveyard and so with a 1/1 Goose and 2/3 Goyf. Remember that with relic you can remove cards from your own graveyard too.

I would not side out Warren Instigators, cause they're still effective in combat and cheap to play. I'd side out Piledrivers way before Instigators, cause against red thresh you're not going to have an army of 3+ goblins that often, and Piledriver is just a chumpblock if this is not the case. I'm not siding them out because I'm only playing with 2 maindeck, but I might, in retrospect, go -1 Pile +1 Stingscourger.

Pastorofmuppets
09-17-2009, 08:29 PM
Can someone please describe to me how anyone expects Instigator to ever connect?

Media314r8
09-17-2009, 09:27 PM
Can someone please describe to me how anyone expects Instigator to ever connect?

1. Stingscourger their blocker
2. Warren Wierding their blocker
3. Gempalm their small, targetable blocker (trinket mage, elves, dark confidant, merfolk, mirror)
4. Attack with gator and another lackey/gator/chieftain/a large 'driver.
5. Attack into their 1 toughness blocker and make them chose between a one-for nothing or potential explosiveness (bob, non-threshed geese, hierarch, elves, silvergil, cursecatcher)
6. Vial him in endstep if they attack with all their creatures
7. They don't have a blocker (combo, landstill, stacks, ect)

That about covers it. Corner cases, really.

Test it.

It's also not terrible if their goyf just has a starring contest with gator until they find another guy/removal for him, as you have a much better mid and late game, and a two drop that threatens to win you the game upon connecting may hold back goyfs on defense, even if you don't have much gas in hand. This has been discussed to death. Read thread, ect.

TotallySweet
09-17-2009, 09:34 PM
Can someone please describe to me how anyone expects Instigator to ever connect?

The same way that other goblins connect; some are removed, some are blocked, and some get through. Think less along the lines of sneaking it in like a turn 1 lackey and more along the lines of another must-be-dealt-with goblin in a deck already pretty full of must-be-dealt-with goblins.

At first, admittedly, I thought of it as:
Turn 1: vial or w/e.
Turn 2: instigator.
Turn 3: try to swing lol yeah right.

But if you consider more along the lines of:
4 cards in hand I swing with piledriver, instigator, warchief. You have a goyf. What do you block?

Obviously my example has a lot of holes (what deck you're playing, what's in your hand, what are life totals, etc) At least that's how I look at it, although I'm not a goblins player.

Tacosnape
09-17-2009, 10:56 PM
There's also situations where you have more Lackeys/Instigators than they have blockers. Example. You have a Vial at 2 out, untapped. Your opponent decides to be clever and not attack with his Tarmogoyf, which is automatically good for you.

EOT, you vial in an Instigator, untap, Vial to 3, land, Vial out a Warchief, play another Instigator, swing. What now, Tarmogoyf?

He connects. Or he makes other things connect. He's fantastic.

hungryboi
09-18-2009, 04:58 AM
I'd assume that gator is a very strong card. Has anyone been able to test it out yet or are these all hypothetical situations? If so, what matchups has gators improved?

Nessaja
09-18-2009, 05:13 AM
Unlike a sideboard card a card like Warren Instigator doesn't really specifically improve a matchup rather it just makes the deck flow better making all matchups slightly better IMO. It's quite a lot stronger against decks with few creatures I guess.

BreathWeapon
09-18-2009, 10:07 AM
Anybody else replacing Mogg Fanatic with Goblin Bushwhacker,

Goblin Bushwhacker R
Creature - Goblin Warrior (C)

Kicker R
When Goblin Bushwhacker enters the battlefield, if it was kicked, creatures you control get +1/+0 and gain haste until end of turn.

1/1

More haste, more pump and either a 1 or 2 drop that's relevant both early, middle and late game - looks yummy.

Alecthar
09-18-2009, 11:03 AM
Anybody else replacing Mogg Fanatic with Goblin Bushwhacker,

Goblin Bushwhacker R
Creature - Goblin Warrior (C)

Kicker R
When Goblin Bushwhacker enters the battlefield, if it was kicked, creatures you control get +1/+0 and gain haste until end of turn.

1/1

More haste, more pump and either a 1 or 2 drop that's relevant both early, middle and late game - looks yummy.

There's already been some discussion, primarily revolving around the fact that, in the early game it's either a Mon's Goblin Raiders, or pump for too few Goblins. In the Mid to Late game, I'd rather spend my mana on other Goblins, especially of the Chieftain variety.

Pastorofmuppets
09-18-2009, 05:05 PM
Anybody else replacing Mogg Fanatic with Goblin Bushwhacker,

Goblin Bushwhacker R
Creature - Goblin Warrior (C)

Kicker R
When Goblin Bushwhacker enters the battlefield, if it was kicked, creatures you control get +1/+0 and gain haste until end of turn.

1/1

More haste, more pump and either a 1 or 2 drop that's relevant both early, middle and late game - looks yummy.

The only place that thing will ever belong is with a crap ton of Kobolds and Ad Nauseam.

Waikiki
09-19-2009, 11:33 AM
at a sidenote I see some people siding zo-zu the punisher. In what matchups is he sided in? seems to me he's pretty strong vs fetchlands etc.

Arsenal
09-19-2009, 12:00 PM
at a sidenote I see some people siding zo-zu the punisher. In what matchups is he sided in? seems to me he's pretty strong vs fetchlands etc.

You're right. It seems strong versus control decks that run 25+ lands sometimes, many of them being fetches. I don't know for sure, maybe for the 43 Lands matchup?

Waikiki
09-19-2009, 12:03 PM
isn't magus of the moon simply better or does the goblin subtype really counts?

FoulQ
09-19-2009, 01:23 PM
He's okay, but against those loam decks I'd rather have like you said, magus, or my #1 pick for the match, relic. Against other land-based control decks that extra 6 damage could very well not be relevant.

Has anybody tested Zo-Zu? I am also curious about his implications. I searched the thread and he hasn't been brought up at all really.

Alecthar
09-21-2009, 07:20 AM
I'm not sure what decks Zo-Zu would be good against. I mean, he likely hits on turn 3, at the earliest, because if I drop turn 1 Lackey and get through, I'm gonna be hoping to drop something much more impressive. Against an opponent on the draw, he'll have 2 lands. Now, the situation best for you is against something like Landstill or 43 Land, but in either of those matchups, Blood Moon/Magus would be better, I'm thinking, and those are already fairly strong matchups. Thresh and Zoo might take 4-8 damage before having enough mana for going on with. Thresh may take a bit more. In either case, though, it seems more likely that Zo-Zu will eat a cheap burn/removal spell and go to that big Goblin Burrow in the sky.

Of course, you could drop a second, but he's Legendary, and I'm not sure I'm willing to eat up more than 2 sideboard slots on a guy I'd rather not see more than 1 of at a time. And searching him out takes time that an opponent can use to make pain free land drops, which ultimately defeats the purpose of even having the damn thing.

I guess to summarize, my feeling is that Zo-Zu might damage some decks, but would be inferior to other sideboard cards in such matchups, and would do little to improve more troublesome matchups.

P.S.
09-21-2009, 12:38 PM
2. I've been playing Goblins for a number of years now, and I've always considered the Threshold/Counter-Top match-up to be at least 50/50.

The things that I have found that matter the most are:

1. Do I get the go first? A.K.A. win the di roll.
2. Did my first turn Æther Vial resolve or get Force of Will played on it?

At least pre-board, that's how it seems to look.

from Cairo
09-21-2009, 01:48 PM
I'm not sure what decks Zo-Zu would be good against. I mean, he likely hits on turn 3, at the earliest, because if I drop turn 1 Lackey and get through, I'm gonna be hoping to drop something much more impressive. Against an opponent on the draw, he'll have 2 lands. Now, the situation best for you is against something like Landstill or 43 Land, but in either of those matchups, Blood Moon/Magus would be better, I'm thinking, and those are already fairly strong matchups. Thresh and Zoo might take 4-8 damage before having enough mana for going on with. Thresh may take a bit more. In either case, though, it seems more likely that Zo-Zu will eat a cheap burn/removal spell and go to that big Goblin Burrow in the sky.

Of course, you could drop a second, but he's Legendary, and I'm not sure I'm willing to eat up more than 2 sideboard slots on a guy I'd rather not see more than 1 of at a time. And searching him out takes time that an opponent can use to make pain free land drops, which ultimately defeats the purpose of even having the damn thing.

I guess to summarize, my feeling is that Zo-Zu might damage some decks, but would be inferior to other sideboard cards in such matchups, and would do little to improve more troublesome matchups.

I agree he comes online too late to matter. And he isn't a good silver bullet cause then it takes even longer to get him on the field.

If looking for a SB card against pure control with a high curve and land count; decks like Landstill, Control Loam, Ultimate Walker, etc. Something like Goblin Settler seems like it would be better for a number of reasons. It provides card advantage. It's a huge tempo boost off a turn 2 Lackey connect, where Zo-Zu isn't that amazing. It works better with the tutor effects, aka turn 3 Matron into turn 4 Settler, if against Landstill or something that could keep them off a turn 4 bomb if you hit a 2nd White source.

I've been using Pillage to fill a somewhat similar role, and double obviously as Artifact removal. Until now, I hadn't really given Goblin Settler much thought, and I'm not sure if the Tribal synergy and card advantage outweighs the versatility and cheaper casting cost, but I might try testing a couple Settlers in the SB for the control match.

FoulQ
09-21-2009, 03:59 PM
Are you still running port? Otherwise I'd have a hard time justifying settler.

Amon Amarth
09-21-2009, 05:14 PM
If you're looking for a SB against Control I hear Price of Progress is pretty good. They rarely ever expect it either.

ScatmanX
09-21-2009, 05:25 PM
What do you guys side in against Zoo? I´m in Rb.
Went on a champ, and only won the games I play agains´t Zoo trough mana denial (Waste+3ports).
I was going to test Perish, but it seemed rather situational, and I think that I wont use it, expecially after playing yesterday.
Do you think Cabal Therapy is a good option, conbined with wastes?
Dystopia?
Deathmark?
Terminate? (just kidding here)

I think dropping big dudes (Boartusk Liege or higher) is a very good way, but what goblin would be fast and fat enough?

Seb
09-21-2009, 05:53 PM
I like Pyrokinesis a lot. Takes care of Lavamancer and their early beats, and is also huge vs. any tribal deck. It prevents them to do serious damage in the early game, so you'll have a chance to stabilize.

Still, not an easy matchup by any means.

ScatmanX
09-21-2009, 05:57 PM
Knesis is nice and all, but if you can´t find Waste for Taigas, it is not so good.

Eldariel
09-21-2009, 06:18 PM
Knesis is nice and all, but if you can´t find Waste for Taigas, it is not so good.

It can still often completely stymie their early offense, making killing you notably more difficult. Even killing just 1 creature is good.

FoulQ
09-21-2009, 06:21 PM
And note that they will never see the kinesis coming after they slyly fallout away your guys.

Joe_C
09-21-2009, 06:25 PM
pryokinesis is amazing if you play in a zoo/aggro meta. I have been running 4 in my board and loving every one I see.

P.S.
09-21-2009, 08:27 PM
Against Zoo, I bring in +1 Goblin King, +2 Glacial Crevasses and +2 Pyrokinesis. My initial strategy is to "fog" their big attack phases and to race via Mountainwalk and being able to remove their efficient drops. That's if they play red.

It entirely depends on build, however, as they can just burn out my King and then my strategy is "hope I can get guys through." If they sideboard Pyroclasm, I am in a lot of trouble. I actually really dislike the match-up. I hate having to Stingscourger away a Tarmogoyf for a turn because Pyrokinesis is never quite big enough. I have found that I end up looking for Goblin Sharpshooter earlier in this match-up. A lot of times it makes Pyrokinesis insane.

Alecthar
09-22-2009, 06:00 AM
A discussion question, if you will: Looking at the Charlotte 5K results, Rw Goblins grabbed 1/4 of the Top 8 appearances. How significant are these results, and does that version of the deck have better game in the matchups that look to be more common coming out of that event, particularly Zoo?

georgjorge
09-22-2009, 06:05 AM
Summoning Trap 4GG
Instant - Trap

If a creature you cast this turn was
countered by a spell or ability an opponent
controlled, you may pay 0 rather then pay
Summoning Trap's casting cost.
Look at the top 7 cards of your library.
You may put a creature card from among
them onto the battlefield. Put the rest on
the bottom of your library in any order.


Could this have a place in Goblin sideboards ? I'd think that Lackeys or Instigators would get countered on turn one or two rather often, and using that to fetch out an early Warchief/Ringleader/Chieftain/Siege-Gang sounds like a pretty nice tempo boost. And it's still not bad if you use it on turn three or four when they counter your Warchief or Ringleader...

MMogg
09-22-2009, 06:12 AM
Could this have a place in Goblin sideboards ? I'd think that Lackeys or Instigators would get countered on turn one or two rather often, and using that to fetch out an early Warchief/Ringleader/Chieftain/Siege-Gang sounds like a pretty nice tempo boost. And it's still not bad if you use it on turn three or four when they counter your Warchief or Ringleader...

Meh. Isn't it a tad situational? Not only do you need to draw it in your opening hand to be effective, but also it's contingent upon them countering. I'd rather run Pyros and blasts as they are good against more targets. Also, with the addition of Instigator, there is a good chance to force through either a Lackey, Instigator or Vial as a second if a first one is countered.

Bottom line is too situational and not good enough to replace any current SB slots. That's just my scrubby n00b's opinion though. :smile:

Alecthar
09-22-2009, 06:56 AM
That does have the advantage of allowing the Goblin player to tap out and still have a good response to a counterspell, but it's a very narrow "answer." On the one hand, it's possible to turn any countered creature into something far more dangerous. Countered Lackey turning into Ringleader, Siege-Gang, Chieftain? That's pretty good. On the other hand, it sits dead in your hand if there's no counter, it can possibly nab you little of consequence (Stingscourger and Gempalm Incinerator are unimpressive) and it does nothing to aid you in playing Æther Vial, an obviously powerful tool against decks with countermagic. Pyroblast and/or REB are significantly more effective options against blue, generally speaking.

GreenOne
09-22-2009, 08:02 AM
I have finally settled a list with Warren Instigator in it.
Here it is, with the explanation of each (non-obvious) card choice.

Manabase:
4 AEther Vial
4 Wasteland
18 Mountain: The deck plays with a lot of RR cards that you want to cast early in the game, so you want to maximize the red sources. I'm playing only 22 because between the higher number of basics, a good number of tempo tools, and 4 added lackeys, the deck should need a little less lands to work properly.

Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey

4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron

4 Goblin Warchief: I don't think Chieftain is a substitute for Warchief. Haste enablers are good with 8 lackeys to surprise strikes, and with only 22 lands the deck wants to pack all the manacheating it can afford.

4 Warren Instigator: It's absolutely amazing, and probably the card that made me re-think some concepts about the deck. A 4of is needed here.

3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger: 6 slots for removal are usually a good number. Without Mogg War Marshall, however, Gempalm Incinerator has lost part of its appeal, being less effective early in the game. With 8 lackeys you also want to remove a possible blocker, even for a turn, to have a savage tempo swing. That's why I upped the Stingscourger count and diminished the Gempalm number.

1 Siege-Gang Commander: with less lands you want to lower the curve, and the matches where I get to play 2 SGC are really rare. It's obviously awesome to drop with a lackey, but with WI you can tutor for him with a Matron and still drop it the same turn.

4 Goblin Chieftain: this is the card that needs the most explanations. What are the things this guy can do for you?
- An haste man is really good with lackeys, for surprise attacks out of nowhere.
- It fights opponent's plague, pyroclasms, bolts, etc.
- It makes Instigator an attacking monster that beats for 4 and, quite often, exchanges with goyfs.
- It's a good card to drop with lackeys, unlike other low CC dudes.
- It's amazing when you can drop it out of Warren Instigator first strike damage, cause it instantly pump all your dudes, beating for a few damage more, and screwing combat math.
- It can screw combat math with an active vial too.
- the +1/+1 ability is very similar to Piledriver's ability when it comes to deal a good amount of damage to the opponent: let's look at this:

Piledriver + Warchief = 5 dmg
Piledriver + Ringleader + Matron = 8 dmg
Piledriver + Warren Instigator = 5 dmg
Piledriver + Matron + Warren Instigator = 8 dmg

Chieftain + Warchief = 5 dmg
Chieftain + Ringleader + Matron = 7 dmg
Chieftain + Warren Instigator = 6 dmg
Chieftain + Matron + Warren Instigator = 8 dmg

As you can see, both cards usually deal a similar amount of damage. Obviously, this doesn't take into account that Chieftain costs one more, doesn't consider cases when you have 4+ goblins on board (when you have such a strong position you're probably going to win anyway, doesn't matter if you have 13 or 15 damages on board).
The examples also don't cover the fact that Piledriver might not have haste, and that chieftain grants haste to the other guys you're possibly dropping this turn.

1 Goblin Piledriver: With the addition of WI, the deck already has a good number of 2cc drops, and Chieftain does a job that's really similar to Piledriver's. As one of is still good, for going matron -> piledriver, attack with a horde, when you might not have the mana to go for Chieftain, or you need to maximize damage with 4+ goblins on board.

2 customizable slots that can be:

For the conservative ones: additional Piledrivers: It's still one of the best 2cc drops, and in conjunction with Chieftain, really makes the deck much more aggressive, if this is your needs.

Siege Gang Commander #2: I don't think it's needed, but it fits well.

For the ones who like experiments: Lightning Crafter: a card that needs to get re-evaluated post Zendikar. It's both additional removal (and you like it with all those Lackeys), and a good lackey drop too (somewhat working as matron/ringleader #9). In testing when WI connect and you have a matron in hand you can go for different approaches: matron for SGC, if you want a quick win, for Ringleader if you have few cards in hand, for Crafter if you fear board sweepers. If they kill him, you'll still have a Matron in play and a free demonic tutor. It survives Pyroclasm and plague all day, and it's golden against planeswalkers, Moats, Ghostly Prisons, Magus of the Tabernacle, ground stalls. It's also often gg against other tribal decks.

Sparksmith: it's both a removal (good with lackeys), a 2 drop for your curve, and a small beater. It's quite good against other tribal decks, and in the late game it kills even goyfs, if you're willing to drop some blood.

Final list:
// Lands
18 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 between Piledriver, Siege Gang Commander, Mogg War Marshall, Sparksmith, Lightning Crafter, Incinerator, Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

Eseph
09-22-2009, 09:49 AM
GreenOne, I strongly recommend you give Kiki-Jiki the second Siege-Gang slot. In testing with WI this has easily been my strongest play. Being able to matron up Kiki, then play him is phenomenal. And at worst you can just copy matron to find the SGC. It provides a very strong board presence, and leaves you with plenty of options. Plus he still provides you with the same turn 3 wins Siege-Gang can.

GreenOne
09-22-2009, 10:02 AM
GreenOne, I strongly recommend you give Kiki-Jiki the second Siege-Gang slot. In testing with WI this has easily been my strongest play. Being able to matron up Kiki, then play him is phenomenal. And at worst you can just copy matron to find the SGC. It provides a very strong board presence, and leaves you with plenty of options. Plus he still provides you with the same turn 3 wins Siege-Gang can.
I didn't think about Kiki-Jiki. Like Crafter, it might be a card to re-evaluate and test again with WI in the deck. The RRR in the casting cost should not be a problem anymore, with the new manabase.
I was liking the versatility (and lower cc, if I drew it) of Crafter though.
What about the rest of the deck? I see (on salvation) that you're about to drop vial. Be careful, Vial is a great tempo boost, and a card that, for a single colorless mana, usually (statistically speaking) gives you 5+ mana. The combat tricks with Chieftain/SGC/Crafter and the uncounterability are just nice bonus, but indeed Goblin is a deck that wants a lot of mana to work.

arebennian
09-22-2009, 12:15 PM
Instigator--> Matron--> Kiki--> Token Matron--> Any number of nasty things!

Kiki allows you to get an extra goblin on the table, not to mention that they have to deal with 2 instigators next turn, and you can repeat the process somewhat if you searched for a matron with your Token Matron. Or you can search for a Chieftain and copy him, giving you a huge boost.

Like Eseph said, it gives you more options. Still, if you can pull off the Matron into Crafter/Ringleader you are probably WAY ahead anyway!

Eseph
09-22-2009, 12:16 PM
I actually like the list, though I think your 3 spot has become overly crowded, 4 Chieftain, 4 Warchief might be just a bit too much. I also agree with 22 lands, that's more or less the number I'm looking to reach through my builds. I've never really been sold on crafter by itself. It is another larger body (survives 2 damage sweepers), and provides extra burn (works well with chieftain), but the opportunities to hide something useful tend to be minimal, and often you might find yourself simply upgrading an already somewhat useful goblin, into another somewhat useful goblin.

I think generally we're aiming for a similar build, but we're starting at the extremes to see what's still around when we get there. And to be fair, I dropped Vial well over a year ago in favour of Food Chain.

And to the above comment: I think you meant to say 3 Instigators (assuming you didn't feel the need to copy matron).

ScatmanX
09-22-2009, 01:15 PM
A discussion question, if you will: Looking at the Charlotte 5K results, Rw Goblins grabbed 1/4 of the Top 8 appearances. How significant are these results, and does that version of the deck have better game in the matchups that look to be more common coming out of that event, particularly Zoo?

I really don´t understand why they do better. I tend to think that is because there were a lot more Rw than Rb(g), so they got statistic on they´re favor.
I mean, most list splash just for 3 or 4 Stp or PtE. Some Rb lists splash just for Warren Weirdings. It costs 1 more, but is often tutorable, revealed or recurred.
I really don´t get it.

@GreenOne: I liked your list. Kiki does make sense, give it a try.
I´m so ansious to get some Instigators!

@Summoning Trap 4GG: It can sure be great, but in my opinion won´t see play. The deal is that you are preety good agains´t blue decks already (just tempo thresh not being favorable imo), so the card just wont help you in bad mu´s. (TECH: it can be good against stompy decks, with Chalice of the Void!!! =p )

In the report session is a champ we´re i´ve been in this weekend. Comments are welcomed! =)

P.S.
09-22-2009, 01:22 PM
I've been playing Kiki-Jiki forever. My list, posted some twenty pages ago, included it. There's also been talk of it before. So if people "forgot" or "didn't think about it" then they're just not reading the thread.

The more changes people make, the closer they just get to my list. :laugh:

Brona
09-22-2009, 10:46 PM
I might drop Vial completely if I pick up Warren Instigators. I know, I know tempo, mana, 1 drop... Whatever. If you don't cast Vial turn 1 or 2 it pretty much sucks. True story.

from Cairo
09-22-2009, 11:19 PM
I might drop Vial completely if I pick up Warren Instigators. I know, I know tempo, mana, 1 drop... Whatever. If you don't cast Vial turn 1 or 2 it pretty much sucks. True story.

Welcome back True Story, excellent job evading ban-land and stealthily resuming constructive discussion in the DTB forums~

While I agree Instigator seems powerful, and often a better late game top deck than Aether Vial, I feel like the tempo boost in the mid game, and having at least 8 threatening 1 drops is more important for the deck.

Zinch
09-22-2009, 11:20 PM
I won't drop Vial any time soon (in fact, I think I won't drop vial ever). The times I just win through an active vial are just uncountable.
I think you are overreacting to WI. Yes, it is good and can cause a great advantatge if it connects, but it's a creature so is easy to remove and must connect to create that tempo boost.
Vial just seats there helping you turn after turn after turn.

gamegeek2
09-22-2009, 11:22 PM
What kind of imbecile would drop Vial? It's absolutely essential to this deck. And it's only getting better with Instigator to smooth out the curve

arebennian
09-22-2009, 11:30 PM
Welcome back True Story, excellent job evading ban-land and stealthily resuming constructive discussion in the DTB forums~

While I agree Instigator seems powerful, and often a better late game top deck than Aether Vial, I feel like the tempo boost in the mid game, and having at least 8 threatening 1 drops is more important for the deck.
Hilarious!
Way to blow your cover!
+1 to keeping Vial. You surely are not going to run 4 onedrops in a psudo-aggro deck? And early vial is a near MUST answer card.

FoulQ
09-22-2009, 11:34 PM
Interesting, I was just about to flame you brona, and I thought the true story thing at the end was a clever pun and your whole post was sarcastic because of it, but now I realize you are the same guy.

It's also interesting how before you were saying the new goblins weren't good enough, but now you are cutting vial for a new goblin?

If you are considering cutting vial, please look back at some of the posts in this thread. Most of them are still applicable even if you cut port. The search function is in the upper right if you need help. Actually, I think there was a really good discussion on why vial is an auto 4of in the deck only about 10 or so pages ago.

Decks evolve, this is true. Goblin Sligh evolved into Vial Goblins. However, it is clear Aether Vial and this deck are the perfect couple. You can't cut vial, and it is indeed actually getting BETTER with instigator for tricks and a smoother curve. That is a different deck entirely, and a bad one I might add. If you are worried about your ringleaders being weak, try cutting any other nongoblin spells you may be running, such as terminate. :)

Alecthar
09-23-2009, 03:18 AM
God, what is it with people today and getting rid of AEther Vial. I poke my head into the MtgSalvation thread on Vial Gobs and everyone's going on about some "pure aggro" version of Goblins. 18 Lands, Simian Spirit Guide, no Vial and Goblin Goon? At least the infection is limited over here.

But seriously, I would still be playing AEther Vial if they banned FoW, Counterspell, and Counterbalance tomorrow. It's just so damned good.

GreenOne
09-23-2009, 06:12 AM
But seriously, I would still be playing AEther Vial if they banned FoW, Counterspell, and Counterbalance tomorrow. It's just so damned good.
QFT.
I just had some matches to see how broken vial is in this deck.
It ended up that every game where vial stick I got an average of 7 mana from it, before the game ends.

I'd love to play a ritual that says "1: add 7 to your mana pool" in storm combo.

MMogg
09-23-2009, 06:37 AM
Welcome back True Story, excellent job evading ban-land and stealthily resuming constructive discussion in the DTB forums~

:laugh:


no Vial and Goblin Goon?

At least I can kind of understand if someone wants to try the Goon. A long long time ago (when Urza's was in Standard) I played Lackey Sligh with Goblin Mutant and it was a beat stick! The Goon I've tested before and can also be quite brutal and difficult for your opponents to deal with. I know, it doesn't really make the grade, but at least I can understand it.

No Vial, on the other hand, is nucking futs.

Nessaja
09-23-2009, 07:14 AM
Alright, seems like goblins have been shaken up which is probably the reason why lots of people are getting confused and trying weird stuff (no vial.. what?). Anyway, I'm in that scenario too right now and I want to try something slightly less crazy then removing vial, slightly inspired by the list here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18046_Legacys_Allure_Unprecedented_Aggression.html) in the sense that I want a very aggro oriented list and move away a bit from the need of a big mana pool. The list would look like this:

Lands 21
5 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland

Creatures 29
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin War Marshall
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Mad Auntie
4 Goblin Ringleader

Utility 10
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

So, no Matron, no SGC. Losing some of the "I win buttons" and losing the ability to tutor for a curve closer to two mana, faster clock and still must-answer goblins.

Not so sure of this yet, but I'd love to test it atleast.

MMogg
09-23-2009, 07:24 AM
Alright, seems like goblins have been shaken up which is probably the reason why lots of people are getting confused and trying weird stuff (no vial.. what?). Anyway, I'm in that scenario too right now and I want to try something slightly less crazy then removing vial, slightly inspired by the list here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18046_Legacys_Allure_Unprecedented_Aggression.html) in the sense that I want a very aggro oriented list and move away a bit from the need of a big mana pool. The list would look like this:

Lands 21
5 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland

Creatures 29
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin War Marshall
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Mad Auntie
4 Goblin Ringleader

Utility 10
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Warren Instigator
4 Aether Vial

So, no Matron, no SGC. Losing some of the "I win buttons" and losing the ability to tutor for a curve closer to two mana, faster clock and still must-answer goblins.

Not so sure of this yet, but I'd love to test it atleast.

You have Warren Instigator twice. Did you mean Weirding?

Alecthar
09-23-2009, 08:45 AM
:laugh:



At least I can kind of understand if someone wants to try the Goon. A long long time ago (when Urza's was in Standard) I played Lackey Sligh with Goblin Mutant and it was a beat stick! The Goon I've tested before and can also be quite brutal and difficult for your opponents to deal with. I know, it doesn't really make the grade, but at least I can understand it.

No Vial, on the other hand, is nucking futs.

Agreed. I kinda like Goon, if only because he's a dude large enough to look across the field at Tarmogoyf and drop a half-nod on the big green douchebag, rather than cower in fear like the rest of our team. But I just don't understand the impulse to push this deck to be faster. All the best Goblin decks I've ever played have been those that succeed on the backs of powerful CA engines, excellent middle to late games, and a certain resilience against control decks in general. Goblin Bidding with Skullclamp...those were the good old days. Back when I could outdraw any control deck and laugh at a sweeper. I mean, seriously, how often do you get to get hit with a Wrath of God, and the next turn go "Uh...yeah...I win." Yes, there is explosiveness, but in some ways it's like a combo deck. Sure, you can go off early and steal some games, but the most common and reliable path to victory will probably involve some setup and going off later.

Eseph
09-23-2009, 10:12 AM
God, what is it with people today and getting rid of AEther Vial. I poke my head into the MtgSalvation thread on Vial Gobs and everyone's going on about some "pure aggro" version of Goblins. 18 Lands, Simian Spirit Guide, no Vial and Goblin Goon? At least the infection is limited over here.

But seriously, I would still be playing AEther Vial if they banned FoW, Counterspell, and Counterbalance tomorrow. It's just so damned good.

For the record 2 people =/= everyone... Besides it's just something to test out. I love that the mere mention of a list without a couple cards generally considered staples causes the world to explode. It's not like we're declaring this the new wave of goblins, we're just giving it a go to see how it performs.

We may well (and probably will) come back to Vial, but there's no harm in us testing without it. Though for the record Goblins is in no way like a Combo Deck; Resiliency is one thing, combo is something else entirely (FCG :tongue: ).

Nessaja
09-23-2009, 10:15 AM
You have Warren Instigator twice. Did you mean Weirding?
Oops, yah, ofcourse.

The thing I dislike about Matron is that it really doesn't give you any tempo whatsoever, only CA. CA is good, but virtual CA by lessening the amount of lands and making your drops more effective could work too... With no Matron, playing a one off SGC seems kinda stupid too.

Amaroid
09-23-2009, 10:59 AM
The thing I dislike about Matron is that it really doesn't give you any tempo whatsoever, only CA. CA is good, but virtual CA by lessening the amount of lands and making your drops more effective could work too... With no Matron, playing a one off SGC seems kinda stupid too.

But without Matron, it seems like Instigator is getting worse. What makes Instigator really threatening, IMO, is the ability to generate massive card advantage even with only goblin in hand, if that goblin is Matron or Ringleader.

To anyone playtesting with the full set of Instigator, what's your experience so far? I'm reluctant to play more than 2, as it would increase the chance of opening hands with nothing (or almost nothing) but Lackey effects. For example, would you keep an opening hand like "3x Mountain, Wasteland, Lackey, Lackey, Instigator"? Looks like a gamble to me.

Humphrey
09-23-2009, 01:22 PM
Im currently testin this list:

// Lands
2 [A] Taiga
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [REW] Wasteland
8 [BD] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
2 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
1 [R] Goblin King
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [R] Goblin King
SB: 2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon

As u can see, i dropped all removal for more threats. I dislike Gempalm, because its useless in the beginning and a kind of win-more when the table is crowded with gobs. Also i tested weirdings and didnt find it any useful, most of the time the opponent sacrificed something useless. I might trade 2-4 Fetches for Mountains if mana is unstable.

Nelis
09-23-2009, 03:35 PM
But without Matron, it seems like Instigator is getting worse. What makes Instigator really threatening, IMO, is the ability to generate massive card advantage even with only goblin in hand, if that goblin is Matron or Ringleader.

To anyone playtesting with the full set of Instigator, what's your experience so far? I'm reluctant to play more than 2, as it would increase the chance of opening hands with nothing (or almost nothing) but Lackey effects. For example, would you keep an opening hand like "3x Mountain, Wasteland, Lackey, Lackey, Instigator"? Looks like a gamble to me.

I didn't put much testing into it but I was immediately sold on 4. But once in a while the situation you describe happened to me. I think it's something that should be taken into account. I play Rb with 4 Warren Weirdings so I guess it would happen a bit more often to me than to MonoR players. Maybe I should either run 3 Instigators or 3 Weirdings. I am not sure.

GreenOne
09-23-2009, 04:02 PM
To anyone playtesting with the full set of Instigator, what's your experience so far? I'm reluctant to play more than 2, as it would increase the chance of opening hands with nothing (or almost nothing) but Lackey effects. For example, would you keep an opening hand like "3x Mountain, Wasteland, Lackey, Lackey, Instigator"? Looks like a gamble to me.
Remember that instigator is taking some other creature's place, probably at 2cc.

So, would you keep a hand with 3 mountains, Waste, 2 lackeys and a Mogg War Marhall instead of Instigator?
I'd also prefer a hand with 2 WI and a single lackey, than one with 2 lackeys and a WI: WI is quite good with any topdecked draw, with early blockers the opponent might want to chump with (Goose, Confidant), and beats for a relevant clock.

However, I'd keep the hand you listed on the play:
Turn 1: Lackey, go.
Turn 2: Draw, Lackey, Waste.
Turn 3: Draw, WI.

It seems a solid start: the opponent is probably going to kill/counter your first lackey (they don't know your hand), and you have 2-3 turns to topdeck some good 3+cc drop* from the top, that you are going to play anyway, even if the opponent counters the first lackey, kills the second and find a block for the third (savage hand!), cause you still have the lands to play it.

The opponent is going to play with fire everytime I'm attacking with lackey and he doesn't block, so if I topdeck something juicy, he's going to be in a bad position. This puts him on keeping some blockers and buys me time to get my late game going.if he wanna attack with his single goyf, well, I'm going to take 4 and attack for 4 with my 3 lackeys :smile:



*Here's the list of the cards you can draw in my list to make things good: 4 Matron, 4 Ringleader, 4 Chieftain, 4 Warchief, 1 SGC, 1 Lightning Crafter. That's 18 cards out of 53, so 1/3 of the cards are really good with lackeys, while 22 are bad draws (lands or vials), and the remaining 13 are so-so.

Eseph
09-23-2009, 06:26 PM
Remember that instigator is taking some other creature's place, probably at 2cc.

So, would you keep a hand with 3 mountains, Waste, 2 lackeys and a Mogg War Marhall instead of Instigator?
I'd also prefer a hand with 2 WI and a single lackey, than one with 2 lackeys and a WI: WI is quite good with any topdecked draw, with early blockers the opponent might want to chump with (Goose, Confidant), and beats for a relevant clock.

This is actually the same analogy I was going to use to answer this, I like to think of Instigator as a Grown Up version of lackey, able to hold it's own, and actually worth putting out as a beater (with benefits).

Alecthar
09-23-2009, 06:52 PM
For the record 2 people =/= everyone... Besides it's just something to test out. I love that the mere mention of a list without a couple cards generally considered staples causes the world to explode. It's not like we're declaring this the new wave of goblins, we're just giving it a go to see how it performs.

We may well (and probably will) come back to Vial, but there's no harm in us testing without it. Though for the record Goblins is in no way like a Combo Deck; Resiliency is one thing, combo is something else entirely (FCG :tongue: ).

I exaggerated, though not in the spirit of being willfully dishonest.

I don't mean to draw an analogy between the actual play mechanics of the deck archetypes, though turn 3 wins with Goblins sometimes have a combo-esque feel. Rather, I simply meant to note that, much like many combo decks, Goblins has an explosive element that reveals itself under optimum conditions, but outside of those conditions must take more time to get its game together. It's worthwhile to note that I believe the PAG deck on the MTGSalv forums doesn't actually address this issue, I don't see how the deck's early game is significantly more consistent than Vial Goblins, and I can' imagine its power later in the game measuring up.

arebennian
09-24-2009, 01:58 AM
Goblin Shortcutter 1R

Creature-Goblin Scout

When ~~~~ enters the battlefield, target creature can't block this turn.

2/1



Just uploaded 5mins ago on Salvation

EDIT: Pics (thanks to Baka-Sensei24 photobucket)
http://s92.photobucket.com/albums/l40/Baka-Sensei24/?action=view&current=scan0001-1.jpg

Justin
09-24-2009, 10:28 AM
Goblin Shortcutter 1R

Creature-Goblin Scout

When ~~~~ enters the battlefield, target creature can't block this turn.

2/1



Just uploaded 5mins ago on Salvation

EDIT: Pics (thanks to Baka-Sensei24 photobucket)
http://s92.photobucket.com/albums/l40/Baka-Sensei24/?action=view&current=scan0001-1.jpg

It has the same mana cost, power, and a similar function as Stingscourger. Both are good early drops, which can enable a Lackey or Instigator to go through unblocked. Scout has the advantage of no echo cost, so it can continue in the rounds after it is cast.

However, Stingscourger is better is most cases. The ability to bounce a Dreadnought or Tombstalker is huge. Even bouncing a Goyf can give you a nice temp advantage. Stingscourger is also great with vial, whereas the Scout's ability is wasted if you try to vial it in EOT.

You could run both Stingscourger and Scout, but then you would likely have to cut Weirdings or Incinerators, both of which are probably better than Scout. Ultimately, Scout will not make the cut.

arebennian
09-24-2009, 11:04 AM
It has the same mana cost, power, and a similar function as Stingscourger. Both are good early drops, which can enable a Lackey or Instigator to go through unblocked. Scout has the advantage of no echo cost, so it can continue in the rounds after it is cast.

However, Stingscourger is better is most cases. The ability to bounce a Dreadnought or Tombstalker is huge. Even bouncing a Goyf can give you a nice temp advantage. Stingscourger is also great with vial, whereas the Scout's ability is wasted if you try to vial it in EOT.

You could run both Stingscourger and Scout, but then you would likely have to cut Weirdings or Incinerators, both of which are probably better than Scout. Ultimately, Scout will not make the cut.

I concur word for word, but I thought it was worth sticking up here for people to see.

P.S.
09-24-2009, 12:17 PM
Let's talk about Sideboards, shall we? All of these new goblins and the discussion about them is great, however at least 50% of your games, anywhere up to 66.6% of your games, will be played post-board.

I'm curious what everyone thinks are A.) their bad matches, B.) their good matches, C.) what their local metagame is and D.) which match-ups deserve SB slots and how many.

I'm also curious which cards come out of your deck when Sideboarding because I think that is one of the most misplayed parts of Magic.

Decks to Beat: Merfolk, Goblins, Thresh, Zoo, ANT, Landstill, Countertop

Also, you can never forget about Dredge.

FoulQ
09-24-2009, 12:33 PM
Let's talk about Sideboards, shall we? All of these new goblins and the discussion about them is great, however at least 50% of your games, anywhere up to 66.6% of your games, will be played post-board.

I'm curious what everyone thinks are A.) their bad matches, B.) their good matches, C.) what their local metagame is and D.) which match-ups deserve SB slots and how many.

I'm also curious which cards come out of your deck when Sideboarding because I think that is one of the most misplayed parts of Magic.

Decks to Beat: Merfolk, Goblins, Thresh, Zoo, ANT, Landstill, Countertop

Also, you can never forget about Dredge.

Bad matches I believe are combo (duh) and zoo. I also don't like to play against dredge but that's because I'm unexperienced at the matchup. Otherwise I feel prepared for anything. Sometimes loam can be a bastard too. I also surprisingly think tempo thresh, aka canadian, is a bad matchup. Maybe just me, but I think it is because I am not running black.

Good matches include most decks with vial, including the mirror match. 4 gempalms 2 tin streets really help this. If they play chieftains MD it's back to around even though. Also includes any deck with counterbalance. And any deck with chalice basically, except loam can be a problem.

My metagame is landstill, countertop, loam, zoo, merfolk, goblins..and of course various established decks show up as 1ofs very often.

I think the aggro matchup deserves sideboard space, as well as graveyard hate. Otherwise up in the air really.

I'm running all the standard 4 ofs, including 4 gempalms. Except only 3 piledrivers. Then I'm running 2x fanatic, 2x MWM, 2x tin street, 2x sting, 2x SGC.

I have had this problem too, I don't think I'm a very good sideboarder.

My sideboard currently:

3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Goblin Chieftain

Merfolk
+4 Pyrokinesis
+2 Goblin Chieftain
-2 MWM
-4 Depends on if they are splashing.

Goblins
+4 Pyrokinesis
+2 Goblin Chieftain
-2 Piledriver
-2 MWM
-2 Stingscourger

Canadian
+4 Relic
+2 Chieftain
-4 Gempalm
-2 Tin Street

Zoo
+4 Pyrokinesis
-2 Tin Street
-2 Piledriver

ANT
shit lol. If I'm feeling like a miser I might board in a grip or two to fuck with them.

Landstill
Very build dependent. Can't say. Needles for sure, usually grips.

Countertop
Very build depedent. If black splash, then grips for sure. Sometimes needles and sometimes chieftains.

Dredge
I haven't tested enough really. Not sure if pyrokinesis is worth it or not. Not sure if vial is worth it or not. If I board out vial, I could board in kinesis and relic and still keep ringleader. Needs testing I guess. BUT NOT TIN STREET. I learned that the hard way with stupid pithing needle shutting down my relics once.

ScatmanX
09-24-2009, 12:36 PM
Relic of Progenitus is the only always 4 off in my sb, once of the ones you listed, it comes in agains´t:
Thresh, Zoo, ANT, Landstill, Countertop
and of course, Dredge.

The rest really depends on meta.


Dredge
I haven't tested enough really. Not sure if pyrokinesis is worth it or not. Not sure if vial is worth it or not. If I board out vial, I could board in kinesis and relic and still keep ringleader. Needs testing I guess. BUT NOT TIN STREET. I learned that the hard way with stupid pithing needle shutting down my relics once.

Vial and Ringleader are not worth it if you´re boarding in 4 knesis, 4 relics, 2 needles.

Humphrey
09-24-2009, 01:01 PM
Im toying around with different builds. Im back to Weirdings :cry:
Current list

// Lands
4 Mountain (2)
1 [6E] Swamp (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [R] Goblin King
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding


// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 4 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip



[b]Merfolk
- Goblin King
- 2 Instigator
+ 3 Grip

Goblins
- Goblin King
+ Tinkerer

Canadian
+ Boartusk Liege
+3 Moon
- Pyromancer
- Lightning Crafter
- 1 Siege Gang Commander
- Wort

Zoo
+4 Moon
+2-4 Chalice (depending on build)
- Pyromancer
- Wort
- 1 Siege Gang Commander
- 1 Warren Instigator
- 2-4 Lackey


ANT
+ 4 Chalice
+ 1 Tinkerer
+ 2 Relic
- 3 Weirdings
- 3 Vial
- Wort

Landstill
Moons and Grip, sometimes Chalice

Countertop
Moons and Grip

Dredge
+ 2 Relic
+4 Chalice
- 4 Vial
- Wort
- King

Actually I make my SB Decisions after Game1 usually.

Justin
09-24-2009, 01:39 PM
Good matches include most decks with vial, including the mirror match. 4 gempalms 2 tin streets really help this. If they play chieftains MD it's back to around even though. Also includes any deck with counterbalance. And any deck with chalice basically, except loam can be a problem.

How can the mirror match be a good (favorable) matchup? All other things being equal, isn't it by defintion 50/50?

Justin
09-24-2009, 01:55 PM
As for what goes in the sideboard, I'll agree that Relic of Progenitus is very strong because it hits so many decks. I play 4 of those.

Secondly, pyrokinesis is very strong in the mirror match or against aggro in general and seems like a good choice.

Third, I'd go with Red Elemental Blast, given how powerful and popular blue-based decks are in Legacy right now. You want to have some kind of sideboard against them.

I also like to devote at least three slots to a card that can help defend us against Engineered Plauge, so we don't just scoop when a couple of them hit the board. In mono-red, this is Boartusk Liege. With a green splash, you would obviously go with Krosan Grip (which also helps against Humility and other troublesome cards).

After a long time, I've finally come to agree with the other posters who have given up on beating combo. It's better to devote sideboard slots against other matchups.

So to sum up, give 3-4 slots for each of the following:

Anti-graveyard/Goyf
Anti-aggro
Anti-blue
EE protection

By the way, have any black-splash players tried Leyline of the Void over Relic, and if so what were your impressions?

P.S.
09-24-2009, 02:11 PM
Zoo, Thresh, Merfolk and the mirror are all beatdown decks, for the most part. Some have better midgame, some have some control back-up, but they're still beatdown decks. Their goal is to beat you from 20 to 0 quickly. This is where Pyrokinesis shines obviously (and Glacial Crevasses for me too). Granted Pyrokinesis sometimes isn't the answer you need. It's not able to target cards like Nimble Mongoose and sometimes it's just straight not big enough, for stuff like Tarmogoyf. That is why I still play GC. If it becomes my dudes against their dudes where we're both aggressive, I can "fog" to win the race, or give myself more time to find non-red zone damage, like Sharpshooter or Siege-Gang tricks.

Just curious, but why Relic of Progenitus over Tormod's Crypt? I still prefer the Crypt. This is for Loam, Dredge and Thresh, obviously.

Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast are good answers for any deck with Force of Will. It's really my only hope to stop a Counterbalance from hitting the table too. Which matters if you can't get a Vial on-line. Also good against Merfolk but I consider that a good match-up already anyway.

ANT I have Chalice, which doesn't seem like it's good enough. I think I might just chalk it up to a bad match-up and not devote SB slots to it anymore.

The hard part is never what comes IN though. It's what goes OUT. If you're taking out goblins like Ringleaders or Piledriver, I think you're doing it wrong, because you're losing a lot of consistency and synergy. That's why I was curious what cards people were taking out.

Having Engineered Explosives protection is interesting to me though...

I think Merfolk is a good match-up. I think ANT is a bad match-up. Everything else seems pretty middle-of-the-road, honestly. 40-60 to 60-40 but nothing that one or two slots will dramatically change.

I don't think any progression is being made with the deck. I think a lot of the playtesting that people do is done incorrectly, and I think this thread is not doing anything to help goblin players as a whole other than just to wildly speculate about new cards or old card slots.

One of the big things that irks me is that people focus on their sixty, instead of their seventy-five, when you'll play more games with Sideboard than without. There's not a lot of match-up discussion, even during tournament reports where people just gloss over their match-ups. Which cards are your strongest cards in each match-up? Which cards are your weakest? What is your strategy against each archtype? How do you mulligan? These things all matter a helluva lot more than arguing over R/b or Warren Instigator.

I'm trying to spark some new discussion. Just to get people thinking and talking about something that matters. Just smashing a goblin deck into other decks and going 6-2 at a PTQ isn't going to mean anything. Ya know?

Amon Amarth
09-24-2009, 04:15 PM
Relic over Crypt because it card pops and wrecks Goyf.

It depends on the matchup but some Goblins aren't very stellar. Against Zoo Piledriver is often a Squire. Squire is bad. I run mono red so I'd SB like this:

-3 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Gempalm Incinerator
+4 Pyrokinesis

I still want to be able to tutor for a Fireball late game so I will keep one in. Incinerator is also lackluster in the early game where you will need the most help.

You curve up to five, why do you care about wasting slots to protect against EE? It's like six hundred mana to kill a Warchief. The card is too slow to be relevant.

Tacosnape
09-24-2009, 04:24 PM
My opinion of Leyline of the Void is that it really doesn't matter a whole lot whether you're playing black or not. All you have to do is ask yourself two questions:

1. "Am I, on average in at least one match per tournament, going to need graveyard hate faster than I can cast and play Relic of Progenitus?"

2. "Against decks where I need graveyard hate, are they more likely to make me discard a card before I have a single turn than they are to be able to remove an enchantment from play?"

If the answer's yes to both, IE you're going to face Ichorid or Entomb Reanimator or other decks that are lightning fast in the yard and will pack discard, you should pick Leyline.

The only difference black makes is on rare occasions against Survival or Loam, they'll spend all their effort stopping your initial onslaught rather than developing their engine. In this case, dropping Leyline on turn four can rarely be somewhat decent, assuming they aren't going to just Krosan Grip the thing or Wish or Survival for an answer.

EDIT: The other difference black makes is that with black, you don't always want to board in Relics to stop Tarmogoyfs. With mono red, you often will due to lack of Warren Weirding.

Justin
09-24-2009, 04:37 PM
There's so much to say about sideboarding, but I'll give a few quick thoughts. Deciding what to side out can often be difficult but some of the decisions are more common sense. Some of the staples (Aether Vial, Lackey, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader) you almost never want to side out.

Some removal spells are very poor against some decks. If you play Warren Weirding, it's pretty clear that you want to side it out in the mirror and other aggro decks that play multiple creatures. Just replace it with pyrokinesis. Likewise, Stingscourger isn't so hot against aggro. Gempalm Incinerator stinks against some decks (Threshold, Landstill, etc.), so side it out and replace with Red Elemental Blasts.

I think you can side out piledrivers and chieftains, depending on the matchup, but be careful. For example, you don't want to reduce your piledrivers against a deck that is light on creatures, because they are your fast win-condition. Chieftains should stay in against blacks decks, but you should probably assume that they are running Plague.

It's pretty easy to decide what comes out when you are only boarding in four cards. The difficult comes when you are boarding in 7-plus cards (such as REB and Relic against Thresh or REB and pyrokinesis against Merfolk). Boarding in a bunch of non-goblin cards can also be problematic as to how efficient your deck runs. Another option is that after you've removed the obvious cards, you could take away a single of multiple cards. Take some of your lesser-valued 4-ofs and reduce them to 3-ofs.

FoulQ
09-24-2009, 05:14 PM
Vial and Ringleader are not worth it if you´re boarding in 4 knesis, 4 relics, 2 needles.

I'm saying i COULD board in the kinesis. I'm wondering if kinesis are worth it.

What am I going to hit with needle?


How can the mirror match be a good (favorable) matchup? All other things being equal, isn't it by defintion 50/50?

No, because I play 2 tin street hooligan, only 3 piledrivers, still rocking more answers to lackey/instigator (x2 mogg fanatic), 2 SGC which is gamebreaking, FOUR gempalm which many have neglected (instead of saying warren weirding which is obviously bad in mirror), and I run 4 kinesis out of the board which some people don't.

That's how I have the advantage in the mirror.

ETA: PS, why do you want to run reb to stop force of will/counterbalance? Counterbalance time walks and them tapping out to play it on turn 2 + gives you lots of time, and it can't hit many of the more relevant spells. Is it worth weakening ringleaders to get the forces? I don't think so. From my experiences with burn, blasts take away too much from the strategy. YOU are the proactive deck, reb is by nature a reactive card. That's why I don't like it for that application. (Mantis has different reasons for using it which I can somewhat agree with) I really agree with you strongly though PS, that we need some more relevant discussion in this thread, and I applaud you for helping steer us in the right direction.

I'm also confused, who cares about EE? Is it that played? Lots of deck play it but only as a 1-2 of, sometimes 3.

ScatmanX
09-24-2009, 05:32 PM
I'm saying i COULD board in the kinesis. I'm wondering if kinesis are worth it.

What am I going to hit with needle?

1- You should board Knesis, once it can kill lots of theyre guys, and can kill our own guys if needed. (tech!) and that Ringleader won´t even matter.
2- Needle for Dreed Return or Cephalid Coliseum


I'm also confused, who cares about EE? Is it that played? Lots of deck play it but only as a 1-2 of, sometimes 3.

I guess he men´t EP. EE doesn´t make much sense.

FoulQ
09-24-2009, 05:38 PM
Pithing Needle does not stop dread return.

P.S.
09-24-2009, 06:00 PM
Relic over Crypt because it card pops and wrecks Goyf.
Although this is true, I'm not bringing in graveyard hate because of Tarmogoyf. I'd be bringing in graveyard hate in like every single match-up! :laugh:


You curve up to five, why do you care about wasting slots to protect against EE? It's six mana to kill a Warchief. The card is too slow to be relevant.
This is valid and a damn good point.

dr4g0n
09-24-2009, 06:30 PM
We had an argument between our local rules gurus, so I decided I should probably toss it out here. When a token dies, does it count as being 'put into the graveyard'? e.g. would Sharpshooter untap if a token dies?

Tacosnape
09-24-2009, 06:41 PM
Technically it's five to kill a Warchief, but it's still a valid point. The only hate card you need to worry about stopping seriously is Engineered Plague. And Goblin Chieftain to me does enough for this given that Goblins used to just win through Plague without pumpers.

If you want true Mirror superiorty and the best matches against aggro decks, maindeck Pyrokinesis. It lets you set up so many ridiculous plays in aggro metagames, and skyrockets your Lackey/Instigator connection percentages.

My last game two games against Zoo went as follows, and these aren't best case scenarios:

Me: Mountain, Lackey.
Zoo: fetch Taiga, Kird Ape.
Me: Mountain, Instigator.
Zoo: Plateau, Chain the Instigator, Wild Nacatl.
Me: (Topdeck Pyrokinesis) Waste the Taiga, Pyrokinesis the Nacatl and the Kird Ape, swing with Lackey, drop Ringleader, catch Land, Vial, Warchief, Siege-Gang Commander.

Zoo: Taiga, Nacatl, go.
Me: Mountain, Vial, go.
Zoo: Fetch a Plateau, Qasali Pridemage, swing for 4, go.
Me: Waste the Taiga, Pyrokinesis the Nacatl and the Pridemage.

While neither of these are auto-win situations, Pyrokinesis was responsible for me not getting run over in both, and I did go on to win both of these games (The first was close, the second with ease.)

Pyrokinesis in the Goblin Mirror is a monster. It will nearly always kill two Goblins (Assuming one of them isn't a Boartusk Liege or something weird) for zero mana at instant speed. This gives you an incredible weapon to dominate the board position, as well as a way to deal with your opponent's turn one Lackey.

However, it's worth noting that in non-aggro matchups, Pyrokinesis just sucks horribly. Which is why it lives in the board usually.

Amon Amarth
09-24-2009, 09:19 PM
We had an argument between our local rules gurus, so I decided I should probably toss it out here. When a token dies, does it count as being 'put into the graveyard'? e.g. would Sharpshooter untap if a token dies?

Tokens get put into the graveyard but get removed by state-based effects. They are there long enough to trigger a Sharpshooter. SS does mow down all Soldier tokens- he don't fuck around.

Also 2+3 = 5 and not 6. Who would have thought?

Alecthar
09-24-2009, 10:21 PM
Tokens get put into the graveyard but get removed by state-based effects. They are there long enough to trigger a Sharpshooter. SS does mow down all Soldier tokens- he don't fuck around.

Also 2+3 = 5 and not 6. Who would have thought?

Ditto for Insect and/or Elf tokens. God I remember playing against Elf and Nail with Goblin Bidding...easiest matchup ever.

Tacosnape
09-25-2009, 01:22 AM
The only way Sharpshooter's worth his weight in modern Goblins is in builds packing quad War Marshal, which is getting more and more difficult to do given that they keep printing goblins just slightly better than War Marshal, who also really wants Chieftain around to make him better.

That said, oddly, the whole world dropping Mogg Fanatic has made 1-toughness creatures much more popular again, meaning that while Sharpshooter is worse due to Fanatic being horrible, he's also better due to Fanatic being horrible.

(...Too much logic. I think I'll go sleep soon.)

P.S.
09-25-2009, 02:13 PM
The only way Sharpshooter's worth his weight in modern Goblins is in builds packing quad War Marshal

That's not true at all. Sharpshooter is awesome. He's one of the only kill cards I have if the opponent drops a Moat. He's a good finisher, assuming you pack a sac outlet, like Skirk Prospector.

Tacosnape
09-25-2009, 03:09 PM
That's not true at all. Sharpshooter is awesome. He's one of the only kill cards I have if the opponent drops a Moat. He's a good finisher, assuming you pack a sac outlet, like Skirk Prospector.

Running one suboptimal card is not justified by running a second, even more suboptimal card.

I acknowledge the Moat point, but I'd counter that Siege-Gang Commander does the same thing.

ScatmanX
09-25-2009, 03:21 PM
And Lightning Crafter!

Tacosnape
09-25-2009, 03:24 PM
Arguing against a suboptimal card by suggesting an even more suboptimal card isn't any more of a valid argument than arguing that a suboptimal card be justified by an even more subopt...agh. what was I talking about?

I just don't know about Crafter, though. In theory I like the idea of having one on the board, but in practicality? Not so much.

ScatmanX
09-25-2009, 04:08 PM
I´m recently testing 1 MB. Wil let you know what I think.
There are users, like Media, who have been running them for a long time now.

P.S.
09-25-2009, 06:00 PM
Goblin Sharpshooter is not bad or "suboptimal". Also, arguing that you're "only running one" is dumb when the entire purpose is that it's a Matron target.

I will never cut Sharpshooter. It's one of my favorite cards in the deck and has won me a lot of games by itself.

Joe_C
09-25-2009, 06:24 PM
If everyone starts running Instigator fanatic will become excellent in the mirror and so will sharpshooter.

Justin
09-25-2009, 10:38 PM
I'm with Tacosnape in that I don't think Sharshooter makes the cut anymore. For a long time, I ran a single Sharpshooter, using it as a toolbox card. Unfortunately, it has gotten much worse over the years, and I often found myself boarding it out.

One thing that has weakened Sharpshooter is the increased number of "lords" being printed since Lorwyn. This has escalated since Magic 2010. Tribal decks that used to get mowed down by Sharphooter (Elves, Merfolk) can generally survive it. Sharshooter isn't even quite as good in the mirror anymore with people running Chieftain.

P.S.
09-25-2009, 10:48 PM
In my opinion, people shouldn't be running Chieftain. :smile: Different playstyles, I guess, but we would be going back to arguing card slots in the main sixty, which I would rather avoid.

FoulQ
09-25-2009, 11:22 PM
Well it doesn't really matter what you think, the majority like chieftain, making sharpshooter worse. He is a sideboard option though. true story

Tacosnape
09-26-2009, 02:46 AM
If everyone starts running Instigator fanatic will become excellent in the mirror and so will sharpshooter.

They're actually both good in the mirror already, but so is Gempalm Incinerator, and very few lists still pack four.

Fanatic might actually hit a point of sideboardability in certain metagames. It's good against Goblins, good against Ichorid, kills Confidant, and is good against anything packing mana-producing 1-drop creatures. It's just terrible against a lot of stuff.

FoulQ
09-26-2009, 02:50 AM
@ Taco, wouldn't you just want to run pyrokinesis in that situation? I guess the mana 1-drops and confidant might be different. And fanatic can always come in if you have dead cards like, oh, I dunno, goblin sharpshooter hahaha.

Tacosnape
09-26-2009, 02:56 AM
@ Taco, wouldn't you just want to run pyrokinesis in that situation? I guess the mana 1-drops and confidant might be different. And fanatic can always come in if you have dead cards like, oh, I dunno, goblin sharpshooter hahaha.

Probably, except for Fanatic being randomly helpful to supplement Relic against Ichorid.

ScatmanX
09-26-2009, 10:30 AM
I don´t really know if Fanatic is good agains´t Confidant.
1st- They will not play Confidant if theres a Fanatic on the board, and you won´t hold it in your hand until they drop it.

2nd- Decks playng Confidant usually play Plague, so game 2 and 3, I want to minimize the number of 1 thoughness dudes I play. I mean, if the drop it, Lackey and Instigator are already useless. Matrons will only tutor. Adding Fanatics to the number of "dead spells" is kind of a bad thing.

Any way, I'm not sure of it.

As to Sharpshooter, I still run him 1 off in SB, cause I run in a lot of mirror usually.

T34m1nat0r
09-27-2009, 12:05 AM
Yo, I was playing at my local friday night magic place and I did 3 wins and 1 lost with my mono-red goblin deck.

It's a pretty staple deck. I beat a random red deck easily first game, second game I went against a black deck with engineering plague and dark confidant, I won first round cause of swarming, 2nd I lost cause of engineering plague, and I won third cause of blood moon that I boarded in. Canadian thresh I won pretty easily.

But the 4th deck, that was a wierd type of zoo that ran dark confident and grim lavamancer (along with the usuals). He beat me so easily. 1st game He had 3 goyfs out and I couldn't do anything. 2nd game I had like 2 chieftans, 1warchief, and ringleader on the field. He had 2 goyfs, 2 wild nacatl's, and a kird ape. The nacatl's were 3/3 and goyfs 2/3 because I used relic.

I probably would have won but he got jitte out and then he started winning. After that he played another nacatl, did snow and ice artifact and swung for unblockable lethal. HOW AM I SUPPOSE TO WIN AGAINST THIS! I am only going to stay mono red cause I can't afford duals. Should I run burn? pyrokenises? bolt? should I run artifact hate? My sideboard is: 4 relic of progenitus, 4 thorn of amethyst, 3 pithing needle, 2 shattering spree, 2 blood moon. My mainboard has 3 gempalm incinerators, 3 stingscourgers, 3 siege gangs for removal. HOW DO I BEAT ZOO????

ScatmanX
09-27-2009, 12:37 AM
In page 166 there are lots of post talking about the best ways to side agains´t Zoo. Check it out.

Jayzonious
09-27-2009, 01:56 AM
I am only going to stay mono red cause I can't afford duals.

That's about the only reason to stay mono red you poor bastards :laugh:

Alecthar
09-27-2009, 03:58 AM
That's about the only reason to stay mono red you poor bastards :laugh:

Yeah, shit like having a mana base immune to Wasteland and Stifle, or having a bare minimum of non-Goblins...

Useless nonsense on the real, brutha!

Cyrus
09-27-2009, 08:24 AM
I really think a 4/2 split between Warchiefs and Chieftains is the way to go. To me, Warchief is apparently the superior lord. The tempo boost it provides is so much better than the pump chieftain gives, but 6 haste-givers seems like the better configuration.

Sometimes I wished I had 4 stingscourgers, but having 2 sitting dead in your hand suck. Maybe I should stick to 3.

About the SB: Pyrokinesis is so awesome against zoo and tribal in general, and I want to up those to 4. But I don't know what I would cut in the SB. Ah, concerning my SB options usually I side out 1 instigator, 1 stingscourger and 1 gempalm incinerator for the kinesis. Anyways, here's the list:


// Lands
18 [LRW] Mountain (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar

ScatmanX
09-27-2009, 10:07 AM
@Cyrus: For more Knesis, cut Pillar. Combo do not fear it anymore how they used to do. They win trough it.
And agains´t Zoo, I think is better to side out like, 2 Piledrivers (usually Squire), 2 Incinerators (to few goblins usually), 2 Instigator. Then bring in Relics aswell, to stop Goyf and Grim Lavamancer. I wouldn´t take out Stingscourer, because they buy you a shitload of time, specially coming out a Vial.

DragoFireheart
09-27-2009, 10:58 AM
How has the Goblin Instigator been treating you guys?

Cyrus
09-27-2009, 12:13 PM
Better than the options. Sometimes he's pretty wicked, like turn 3 win vs combo.

ScatmanX
09-27-2009, 01:20 PM
How does Instigator help T3 kill, if he only connects turn 3?
Best way to deal with combo is lackey into turn 2 Warchief + Earwig Squad. True Story.

Nevertheless, Insigator is a house.

Cyrus
09-27-2009, 02:33 PM
He beats a lot with 1 or 2 Chieftains. Maybe that's just me hyping the card, but it is awesome.

from Cairo
09-27-2009, 09:16 PM
How does Instigator help T3 kill, if he only connects turn 3?


Turn 1 Cast Lackey.
Turn 2 Cast Instigator; Lackey's trigger in SGC.
Turn 3 Cast Goblin Chieftain, Swing team, Instigator's First Strike trigger in a 2nd Chieftain.

Granted this scenario is rare, but in this case Instigator helped with a T3 kill by not connecting til T3.

gamegeek2
09-28-2009, 12:06 AM
And why does it matter if it's a turn 3 kill (in the majority of matchups)? If he hits at all the opponent is probably fucked.

arebennian
09-28-2009, 12:20 AM
Storm Combo matters.
Getting them down to 15 is probably the same result as getting them down to 20 (so your point about instigator hitting is valid) but still and all, turn three is around the time protected combo goes off.

ScatmanX
09-28-2009, 01:14 PM
Turn 1 Cast Lackey.
Turn 2 Cast Piledriver; Lackey's trigger in SGC.
Turn 3 Cast Goblin Chieftain, Swing team.

Turn 1 Cast Lackey.
Turn 2 Cast Mogg War Marchall; Lackey's trigger in Warchief.
Turn 3 Cast Goblin Matron for Piledriver, Cast Goblin Piledriver, Swing team. Lackey trigger into Crafter.

Turn 1 Cast Lackey.
Turn 2 Cast Piledriver; Lackey's trigger in Chieftain.
Turn 3 Cast Goblin Chieftain, Swing team. (19 dmg)

And all the double Piledrivers T3 kill possibilities.
Don´t get me wrong, I love Instigator, just don´t see it helping T3 kills much, thats it.

P.S.
09-28-2009, 01:31 PM
All of those scenarios involve you choosing to drop Goblin Lackey on the first turn over Æther Vial. If I'm on the play in the first game and I don't know what they're playing, I'm dropping Vial over Lackey.

Eseph
09-28-2009, 07:58 PM
Turn 1 Cast Lackey.
Turn 2 Cast Piledriver; Lackey's trigger in SGC.
Turn 3 Cast Goblin Chieftain, Swing team.

Turn 1 Cast Lackey.
Turn 2 Cast Mogg War Marchall; Lackey's trigger in Warchief.
Turn 3 Cast Goblin Matron for Piledriver, Cast Goblin Piledriver, Swing team. Lackey trigger into Crafter.

Turn 1 Cast Lackey.
Turn 2 Cast Piledriver; Lackey's trigger in Chieftain.
Turn 3 Cast Goblin Chieftain, Swing team. (19 dmg)

And all the double Piledrivers T3 kill possibilities.
Don´t get me wrong, I love Instigator, just don´t see it helping T3 kills much, thats it.

Why does everyone ignore the Kiki-Jiki wins? I don't mean FCG wins, or combo wins, just good old fashion Kiki tricks.
aka:
Turn 1 Cast Lackey.
Turn 2 Cast Piledriver; Lackey's trigger in Kiki-Jiki, Opponent's EoT Copy Piledriver.
Turn 3 Cast Anything you damn well want; Copy Piledriver, turn sideways for 22.

Not to mention over-complicating all the previous ones where:
Turn 1 Lackey
Turn 2 Piledriver; trigger in SGC
Turn 3 Turn sideways for 17, throw a goblin for 2
would suffice.

Instigator often won't build itself into a turn 3 win, but it does it's own job of building into the later game similar to Vial.

ScatmanX
09-28-2009, 08:21 PM
We were talking especifically about the Combo MU.
And we were also just discussing how Instigator help T3 kill, which I don´t think it really does.

@Eseph: totally forgot Kiki there. Does the "copy piledriver eot" thing still work?

Eseph
09-28-2009, 08:26 PM
Always, just assume the text on Kiki says: "Until the beginning of the end of turn step" and go from there. Works wonders with just about everything, and only gets better with Chieftains kicking around.

ScatmanX
09-28-2009, 08:33 PM
Nice! Will remember that!

Bringing back the Zoo subject, does Green offer something good agains´t the MU? What abount White?
I'm looking at Steely Resolves, but it seems to junky.

from Cairo
09-29-2009, 12:41 AM
Nice! Will remember that!

Bringing back the Zoo subject, does Green offer something good agains´t the MU? What abount White?
I'm looking at Steely Resolves, but it seems to junky.

Is there something specifically in the match that you're having trouble with? My general strategy was to try clog the board and buy time the first 4 turns or so, then do as Goblins does and explode turns 5-8. Obviously to do this you need to soak up as much of the creature damage as possible to keep your life total out of burn range. In testing against the Hatfield list I haven't found the match up to be super lop-sided, but I was having slightly favorable percentages.

Stingscourger is really good in this match up, as it will often set them back a drop and an attack step. Not quite Time Walk, but a ton of tempo if you bounce a Turn 2 Tarmogoyf and chump an Ape or Nacatl. Stingscourger is also bomb against Thoctar or Knight of the Reliquary, since both those plays tie up so much resources negating the play or forcing them to do it back to back turns can be breaking.

If you're using an Incinerator aim it at the sure targets, aka, if you have 4 Goblins on board and they have Pridemage, Thoctar, and mana up, go for the Pridemage. The risk of them killing a Goblin and negating your Incinerator is often too risky, and the fact of the matter is you just need guys off the board. You can chump a 5/4 or swing into it with a huge Piledriver, to beat Zoo you just need to keep the ground from getting over crowded, knocking off 2-3 power guys is fine.

Post board Pyrokenesis can be really good, especially if you expect Volcanic Fallouts. A post Fallout 'Kenesis can often turn their one-sided Fallout into a symmetrical Wrath of God. 'Kenesis is also a big tool on the defensive, the deck often has a lot of expendable 1/1s, so it can be completely acceptable to put some Matrons, Mogg War Marshals or Tokens in front of a few attackers then post combat finish off a few of their guys. In these cases you're still probably ok on card advantage since Matron pulled you a card with citp, and Marshal will bring an additional token in dying.

Alecthar
09-29-2009, 06:17 AM
If you're going to play a splash, and you want to beat Zoo, White seems pretty good to me. The ability to play Swords or Path (I'd lean toward Path, because I prefer not giving my opponents life, but your mileage may vary) on a Goyf/Thoctar/Knight is a pretty powerful effect. The only problem is that Path/Swords isn't a Goblin, so it's unMatronable and unRingleaderable (that's right people, unRingleaderable, tell your friends, this is how we roll from now on).

Black has Warren Weirding, which has been previously discussed, and is, shockingly enough, a Goblin. Hell, I'll even go so far as to evoke the eGhost of True Story by noting that it allows you to play Terminate. I suppose in some ways Weirding + Terminate is a similar removal combination to Gempalm/Stingscourger + Path/Swords, in that one half is a Goblin and the other isn't. The strong point on Weirding/Terminate is that either half can remove Tarmogoyf permanently.

But I think I'll stick with Mono-red for now, myself.

FoulQ
09-29-2009, 01:12 PM
It has been proven: you want to beat zoo, play mono red.

More removal is not the answer, unless it is free like pyrokinesis. You need to get goblins onto the field and then build up your card advantage and save up for the late game inevitability.

It is also build dependent. Some goblins builds are more suited for the aggro matchup. Some are not.

You should never leave home without 4 pyrokinesis in your sideboard in today's metagame. I don't care where you are.

As Eldariel said: you are the aggro deck with more lands. This is a big advantage, and why cards like stingscourger are HUGE. He saves you one turn of them having to recast, and he also saves you one turn of being able to chump block, and he ALSO saves you the turn that the bounced creature has summoning sickness. Run more of them if you want to improve the matchup, and postboard bring in 4 pyrokinesis. Once you get to 5-6 land and a much larger hand than them, the game is over. I board out x3 piledriver (only running 3), x4 instigator, and bring in 3 chieftains and 4 pyrokinesis. Does anybody else think this is a bad idea? My build is somewhat standard: 3 SGC, 4 instigator, 1 chieftain, 3 gempalm, 3 sting, 3 piledriver, and the rest are 4 ofs. And then 23 lands. Is it a bad idea to board out instigator against zoo, as I do believe it is a somewhat bad idea to board out lackey against them.

I've found relic to be not that great as it doesn't directly affect board position.

from Cairo
09-29-2009, 02:57 PM
I board out x3 piledriver (only running 3), x4 instigator, and bring in 3 chieftains and 4 pyrokinesis. Does anybody else think this is a bad idea?

Are Piledriver and Instigator less desirable than Lackey? Zoo is pretty much 20 land and 40 answers to Lackey. I can't see him ever getting through removal and dorks and he doesn't contribute to an alpha strike much. The only time I can think of is when Zoo might swing with their early guy and if you have a Vial at 1 you could bring him in and try to connect, but even still they will often play out a blocker 2nd main phase or if not then they have mana up for removal. I usually board them out over Piledrivers, while Piledriver isn't incredible it usually still trades with something, be it removal or a blocker, where Lackey will sometimes lightning rod removal, but never trades in combat.

Eseph
09-29-2009, 03:03 PM
Are Piledriver and Instigator less desirable than Lackey? Zoo is pretty much 20 land and 40 answers to Lackey. I can't see him ever getting through removal and dorks and he doesn't contribute to an alpha strike much. The only time I can think of is when Zoo might swing with their early guy and if you have a Vial at 1 you could bring him in and try to connect, but even still they will often play out a blocker 2nd main phase or if not then they have mana up for removal. I usually board them out over Piledrivers, while Piledriver isn't incredible it usually still trades with something, be it removal or a blocker, where Lackey will sometimes lightning rod removal, but never trades in combat.

You sir are not running enough Stingscourgers... Zoo would much rather build a board position than remove something early on like lackey, so they will often lay out blockers rather than remove him. Stingscourger steps in and voila Lackey has just done his part. Granted he's still less than stellar late game, but there are few instances where I don't want a lackey in my opener.

T34m1nat0r
09-29-2009, 11:05 PM
Yo, you guys have been talking a lot about splashing black and I'm on the fence about it. I need definate answers to goyf and I think warren wierding will help (maybe terminate). Is it a good idea?

Unfortunately I can't afford the dual lands, so what's a good cost effective replacement?

6x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland (I already own them)
4x Auntie's Hovel/Graven Cairns/Dragonskull Summit/Pain lands?
4x Auntie's Hovel/Graven Cairns/Dragonskull Summit/Pain lands?
4x bloodstained mire (I'll proxy for them at my local fnm)

Which of these combinations would be the best? I looked at deckcheck and RB gobs look to be doing pretty solid.

Auntie's Hovel (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/267.html)
Graven Cairns (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/175.html)
Dragonskull Summit (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/223.html)
Pain Land (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/359.html) how about shock lands?

Can I fetch these with Bloodstained Mire? Whats the best combinations of these?

Alecthar
09-30-2009, 01:01 AM
If you have the Shock Lands, you might as well play them. They can be fetched by Mires, unlike the rest of the lands you mention. Since you won't be playing with double fetches (many splash lists run 4 duals and 8 fetches) you should probably play either Hovel or Sulfurous Springs in that spot. I'd probably go with Hovel, it's unlikely to come into play tapped in a situation that matters.

T34m1nat0r
09-30-2009, 01:58 AM
Thanks for the responce Alecthar. Although I don't have shock lands and they're like 10 bucks each =\ although they are a good alternative to duals

which deck has the better creature base if I was going to run red/black?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28681
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28619

They both did well in tourneys, the 2nd deck runs mad auntie's, earwig squad's, frogtosser banneret's, and no warchiefs. Which is better. I'm so undecided lolz

FoulQ
09-30-2009, 02:42 AM
It's hard to say which creature base is "better" because things like that are often very meta dependent.

Test it yourself against decks that you expect to play against in your meta. Better yet, test it against the players you expect to be playing those decks, hopefully ones that are better than you.

The second list is geared more towards an aggro metagame, so if you see lots of zoo, merfolk, goblins etc that might be the better list. It's not playing goblin warchief though (instead it is playing frogtosser)! Before you cut a card considered essential for goblins, make sure you test it first. Many people have agreed that it is a good card for the deck, though some people have tested it and dropped it.

For you, I would play something more in lines with the first list, but only because it is the more tested and more proven list, and will be less meta dependent than the second. You have to cater and build your deck so that it is the right fit for your meta.

Personally, I don't think you should try going for the black splash without the proper manabase. It is more important to have a consistent goblin deck that sometimes has troubles against tarmogoyf than a deck that can die too often too its own manabase. If you are having troubles with tarmogoyf, there are certainly answers to it in mono red, and TRUST ME, I don't think anything has been more discussed in this thread than "how do I kill goyf?"

GreenOne
09-30-2009, 03:43 AM
Personally, I don't think you should try going for the black splash without the proper manabase. It is more important to have a consistent goblin deck that sometimes has troubles against tarmogoyf than a deck that can die too often too its own manabase. If you are having troubles with tarmogoyf, there are certainly answers to it in mono red
QFT. I'd stay monored, cause, as it is, I don't have much problems with Goyf with my list.

But, if you really want to run black, I'd play with 1 Swamp, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 1 Shockland, 2-3 Auntie's Hovels. If you got them, then you can add 2x other red fetches of your choice.

This is the cheapest configuration I can think of, and I'd NEVER play non-weirding spells in such a deck.

Waikiki
09-30-2009, 04:28 AM
// Lands
4 [ST] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
4 [B] Badlands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator

// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

This is the RB list I have been using and been serving me great! The manabase hasn't been an issue for me so far. The sb is where im finding most the trouble cause I find it really hard deciding what to take out in most of my matchups.

FoulQ
09-30-2009, 11:09 AM
Your list looks solid Waikiki, I would consider cutting a port and adding a mountain for 17 red sources. In my testing that's how many I like to have for 4 instigator and 2 or so chieftain, which is similar to your list (3 instigator and 4 chieftain), along with 4 warchief.

How has thoughtseize out of the board been treating you? I can see that + earwig squad being important cards games 2 and 3 when you have no krosan grip or anything. However, has it been necessary? I think it might just be better to run pyrokinesis to help out the aggro matchup like zoo.

Waikiki
09-30-2009, 11:49 AM
the seizes have been doing good so far.

I was actually pondering about going down to 2 instigators and add another piledriver or a single bouncer(whats his name again?)

The squads are pretty good fighting against hate indeed (same as seize) and vs zoo I think mad auntie is pretty strong aswell with the regen ability.

I would love to hear some sb strategies vs the tier1 decks from you guys. Its really hard for me.

Artos
09-30-2009, 01:53 PM
I'm curious about Magus of the Moon in your board - what matches are you boarding him in for?

T34m1nat0r
09-30-2009, 02:32 PM
My SB is:
4x Relic of Progenitus
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Pithing Needle
2x Blood Moon
2x Goblin Tinkerer

After reading this forum I've decided to main deck 2 pyrokenises and so far i've liked every one i've seen. I just board them out if they don't help me (not very often)

I'm not that great of a goblin player but i'll tell you what I do anyway.

Combo: +4 Thorn of Amethyst +2 Blood Moon.... -6 Creature Removal (pyro/sting/gempalm)

Thresh: +4 Relic of Progenitus +2 Blood Moon.... -6 of something (probably 4x lackey, 2 creature removal....got relic to stop goyf and mongoose....hopefully blood moon will slow them down)

Survival: +4 Relic +3 Pithing +(maybe) blood moon... -7 creatures.... you want removal.

Burn: Just try to out pace them

Dredge: I guess 4x relic....I haven't played them much.

Stax: Probably goblin tinkerer...haven't played them much either so I dont know.

Pikula & Variants (black/white): I like +2 blood moon and +4 Thorn, if they get dark confidant out and engineered plague you're pretty much screwed.... If you play thorn you're slowing them down enough hopefully.

I've had very good luck with blood moon as it can screw over your opponents game and I won 2 out of 3 games at my local fnm last friday just by playing this, but if you get it out too late most likely it won't hurt them as much. I prefer moon to magus because you can't burn him out/counter as easy/kill easy.

I'll probably get rid of my 2 tinkerers for 2 more pyrokenises (I have 2 md) because I don't see stax much and I don't know they have a jitte until it's too late most of the time so it hasn't really helped.

Correct me if i'm wrong people :cry:

ScatmanX
09-30-2009, 02:47 PM
I'm curious about Magus of the Moon in your board - what matches are you boarding him in for?

Magus of the Moon is great against 3 color decks. If you get to vial one in, you preety much won.
From DTB, I'd use him in: Tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh; Counter Top; Landstill; ANT.
From Established: Bant, TES, Truffle Shuffle, Dreadstill, Team America...

I mean, you do not HAVE to board him in. Depending on the opponents build, it may suck, but it sure is great a lot of time.

P.S.
09-30-2009, 02:54 PM
This is the build that I slapped together for gauntlet testing. Not the build that I would personally run in a tournament, however it's a lot closer to the consensus build here:


SPELLS (4)

4 Æther Vial

CREATURES (34)

2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Stingscourger
4 Warren Instigator

LANDS (22)

18 Mountain
4 Wasteland

SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst


I guess I'll see if it fares better or worse...

GGoober
10-02-2009, 12:59 AM
I like the monored P.S.

I think you need to squeeze in at least 2 Siege gang.

Here's what I would run:

4 Vial

4 Lackey
3 Instigator
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
2 Chieftain
4 Stingscourger
2 Incinerator
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Kiki-Jiki
2 Siege-Gang

2 Ports
4 Wasteland
16 Mountain

I'm tempted to cut 2 Ports and 1 Mountain for 3 Chrome Mox, making the land drop go to 19 and counting the Chrome Moxes as a land drop (potentially an accelerant). This enables faster Warchiefs/Instigators/Incinerator/Stingscourger to connect.

I know Chrome Mox has been debated, but the fact that you can accelerate your turn 1-2 plays with 7 Lackeys MD and also be able to pay for Daze on the draw might be worth it. Horrible topdeck, but since it's in the place of a landslot, it's the same as topdecking a land. It gives a faster explosive start and the earlier mana is needed to resolve your bombs (Vial/instigator/Lackey).

socialite
10-02-2009, 08:24 AM
Why are people playing less than 4 Instigators?

P.S.
10-02-2009, 03:34 PM
I like the monored P.S.

I actually hate that build and it's just a generic playtest deck to run against the gauntlet because it's how I see most people playing goblins. If you don't see Snow-Covered Mountain & Glacial Crevasses, then it's not my build. :)

FoulQ
10-02-2009, 05:30 PM
Why are people playing less than 4 Instigators?

THIS. Anybody who has tested him for more than 5 minutes knows he is the STONE COLD NUTS.

The opponent has to expend so many resources dealing with an early lackey or vial that they often don't have what it takes for the instigator beating. And if they do, now they are even further behind in their development. For any you doubters out there, tt reminds me of playing an RTS, how important resource management can be: If I do an early rush to hurt my opponent's economic development in the early game, they will probably be able to repel it without a problem at some point, but AT that point (if it was even slightly successful) I will be so far ahead economically that it isn't going to matter. Instigator is like rushing them once AND THEN RUSHING THEM AGAIN HARDER. He gets you so far ahead, and if HE does connect, then the game is often pretty much over (especially in a build with 3 SGC...)

I've also upped my siege-gang count to 3. I will never regret this decision and hopefully will never be forced to go back on it. If you doubt me, try it. Here is my build right now:

// Lands
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
17 [B] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [M10] Pithing Needle


It has been running amazingly. I'm a firm believer that you do not need chieftain to make instigator worth it. He is amazing on his own. I'm thinking about replacing the pithing needles with magus of the moon, as that seems to be the hot trend at the moment, and needle mostly comes in for random control matchups (though it has a couple other purposes as well, such as if I really badly need to shut down jitte for some decks, for instance).

Cyrus
10-03-2009, 09:14 AM
Chieftain looked amazing in my testing, but It looks like I don't want more than 2 in the MD. I think I need some help with the SB, It feels a little random. Here's my current list:


// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
16 [ZEN] Mountain (3)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

Media314r8
10-03-2009, 09:29 AM
Yo, you guys have been talking a lot about splashing black and I'm on the fence about it. I need definate answers to goyf and I think warren wierding will help (maybe terminate). Is it a good idea?

Unfortunately I can't afford the dual lands, so what's a good cost effective replacement?

6x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland (I already own them)
3x scalding tarn (about $9 on ebay right now, or you could trade for them - I've already traded for two foils, as these are probably the worst fetch in T2)
4x wooded foothills
4x bloodstained mire (I'll proxy for them at my local fnm)
1x Badlands

Which of these combinations would be the best? I looked at deckcheck and RB gobs look to be doing pretty solid.

Auntie's Hovel (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/267.html)
Graven Cairns (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/175.html)
Dragonskull Summit (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/223.html)
Pain Land (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/359.html) how about shock lands?

Can I fetch these with Bloodstained Mire? Whats the best combinations of these?

You can fetch the shock lands with fetches, but as has been said over and over in the budget thread, it's much better to buy 1 revised dual than 2-4 of it's RAV block counterpart, as at least it's a step in the right direction. Unless I open with (fetch, waste, lackey, vial, warren wierding, (2 non-lands)), I usually fetch basics and save a mire for a swamp should I need one, the only situations where you really ever need 2+ badlands are in such as above where you want access to your black mana later, but don't have a source in hand, and after you draw a fetch later, you probably want a second RB source should the first get wasted, that way you're never cut off both R and B mana. I would trade at FNMs for the tarns, and get the mires and a single badlands. Spending money on sub-par replacements seems terribad- I'd rather just play monoR until I had the funds to do it right.

EDIT: make sure you get ahold of 4 'gators before you break the bank on fetches and duals, you are already conceding not having an optimal manabase, you should at least be playing the correct creature base.

Tacosnape
10-03-2009, 10:48 AM
I agree with Media. Duals own face.

And of the ones you listed, Auntie's Hovel is by far the best of the group. Only one time out of several hundred games has its drawback ever hurt me, and that was when I had an empty hand, a Siege-Gang in play, and my opponent had a Moat and an Exalted Angel and I was at 3, and I needed to make a sixth land drop to railgun the Exalted out of existence.

So outside of that ridiculously slim scenario, either you'll have the goblin to reveal or you won't have anything to do with the mana that turn. Hovel's only real drawback is giving your opponent a tiny bit of information.

from Cairo
10-03-2009, 11:04 PM
I'd strongly advocate just building mono-red. Even having access to black, green, white or blue spashes I wouldn't run them over straight red. You can build it optimally with what you have and then as you win store credit/cards/money, you can opt to pick up the things needed for a splash if you're convinced it better suits your meta. Stingscourger and Incinerator are fine at dealing with Goyfs, post-board you have access to Relics if they're more important than something MD.

Malchar
10-04-2009, 02:13 AM
How effective is Thorn of Amethyst (or any other sideboard card for that matter) against combo? I'm considering using a white splash for Orim's Chant, but I would prefer to keep a mono red build. Money is not an issue, but there is a lot of Wasteland and Stifle in my meta, so I prefer to keep a safe mana base.

from Cairo
10-04-2009, 03:00 AM
How effective is Thorn of Amethyst (or any other sideboard card for that matter) against combo? I'm considering using a white splash for Orim's Chant, but I would prefer to keep a mono red build. Money is not an issue, but there is a lot of Wasteland and Stifle in my meta, so I prefer to keep a safe mana base.

I think Chalice of the Void is better if you're devoting slots for the Combo match up and can afford 4 slots. It can come down turn 1 at 0 which is pretty relevant at stopping Artifact mana, a later one can come down at 1 to stop Ritual and cantrip effects. Honestly, I think having something like Chalice at zero and an active Lackey or Instigator gives you a better chance at the match up than devoting your turn 2 to a Thorn, that is if they give you til turn 2.

Neither have much application outside of the Combo match up imo, so it mostly comes down to whether you feel that the amount of Combo in your meta warrants SB space. I'd venture to guess that in most metas that amount does not.

1maarten1
10-04-2009, 05:54 AM
This is the list i have been toying arround with, and it has been doing awesome so far.

3#Gempalm Incinerator
4#Goblin Ringleader
1#Siege-Gang Commander
4#Goblin Matron
3#Stingscourger
3#Goblin Chieftain
4#Warren Instigator
1#Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4#Æther Vial
18#Mountain
4#Wasteland
3#Goblin Piledriver
4#Goblin Lackey
4#Goblin Warchief
// sideboard
4#Pyrokinesis
3#Relic of Progenitus
4#Thorn of Amethyst
2#Goblin Tinkerer
2#Red Elemental Blast

Also, im finding Kiki-Jiki totally awesome again, Only thing im not sure about is 3 piledrivers being neccesary, i might cut 1 for siege-gang #2 or chieftain #4. Tips about that? Also im not really sure about the sb yet.

~Maarten

Joe_C
10-04-2009, 08:49 AM
How effective is Thorn of Amethyst (or any other sideboard card for that matter) against combo? I'm considering using a white splash for Orim's Chant, but I would prefer to keep a mono red build. Money is not an issue, but there is a lot of Wasteland and Stifle in my meta, so I prefer to keep a safe mana base.

I think you need to weigh your odds of playing combo. I rarely see it in numbers at tournaments so I dont even bother running sb cards to fight it. Especially with instigator/chieftain goblins "can" race combo unless they win turn 1-2. The last tournament I played at I faced a friend of mine playing ANT round 1. Game 1 I had him at 1 life on his third turn and he drew the shiz-nit off of brainstorm and won that turn. Game 2 he won on his first turn.

But... If I had to run hate I would choose chalice

ScatmanX
10-04-2009, 10:33 AM
I think Chalice of the Void is better if you're devoting slots for the Combo match up and can afford 4 slots. It can come down turn 1 at 0 which is pretty relevant at stopping Artifact mana, a later one can come down at 1 to stop Ritual and cantrip effects. Honestly, I think having something like Chalice at zero and an active Lackey or Instigator gives you a better chance at the match up than devoting your turn 2 to a Thorn, that is if they give you til turn 2.

Neither have much application outside of the Combo match up imo, so it mostly comes down to whether you feel that the amount of Combo in your meta warrants SB space. I'd venture to guess that in most metas that amount does not.

Actually, I find CotV useful in a number of MU's, like burn, UR Dreadstill, Tempo Thresh (usually 24 1cc spells!), and some others. Agains't some decks yoou shut down so many things setting it at 1, it is really worth it.

GreenOne
10-04-2009, 10:38 AM
Also, im finding Kiki-Jiki totally awesome again, Only thing im not sure about is 3 piledrivers being neccesary, i might cut 1 for siege-gang #2 or chieftain #4. Tips about that?
I strongly suggest Chieftain#4 before the second Siege-Gang. (however, I'd play the second Siege Gang over the Kiki Jiki in your list, but that's another story. If you're good with Kiki, keep on rockin' with it).
Reasoning is this:


4 Goblin Chieftain: this is the card that needs the most explanations. What are the things this guy can do for you?
- An haste man is really good with lackeys, for surprise attacks out of nowhere.
- It fights opponent's plague, pyroclasms, bolts, etc.
- It makes Instigator an attacking monster that beats for 4 and, quite often, exchanges with goyfs.
- It's a good card to drop with lackeys, unlike other low CC dudes.
- It's amazing when you can drop it out of Warren Instigator first strike damage, cause it instantly pump all your dudes, beating for a few damage more, and screwing combat math.
- It can screw combat math with an active vial too.
- the +1/+1 ability is very similar to Piledriver's ability when it comes to deal a good amount of damage to the opponent: let's look at this:

Piledriver + Warchief = 5 dmg
Piledriver + Ringleader + Matron = 8 dmg
Piledriver + Warren Instigator = 5 dmg
Piledriver + Matron + Warren Instigator = 8 dmg

Chieftain + Warchief = 5 dmg
Chieftain + Ringleader + Matron = 7 dmg
Chieftain + Warren Instigator = 6 dmg
Chieftain + Matron + Warren Instigator = 8 dmg

As you can see, both cards usually deal a similar amount of damage. Obviously, this doesn't take into account that Chieftain costs one more, doesn't consider cases when you have 4+ goblins on board (when you have such a strong position you're probably going to win anyway, doesn't matter if you have 13 or 15 damages on board).
The examples also don't cover the fact that Piledriver might not have haste, and that chieftain grants haste to the other guys you're possibly dropping this turn.
Click the link on the quote to further explanation. Our lists actually are quite similar, almost identical.

1maarten1
10-04-2009, 10:56 AM
I strongly suggest Chieftain#4 before the second Siege-Gang. (however, I'd play the second Siege Gang over the Kiki Jiki in your list, but that's another story. If you're good with Kiki, keep on rockin' with it).
Reasoning is this:

Click the link on the quote to further explanation. Our lists actually are quite similar, almost identical.

Ah i see ;). I think i gonna test -1 piledriver, +1 chieftain for a while. Kikki stays i think since he is doing good stuff for me :tongue:

thanks, Maarten

Malchar
10-04-2009, 04:44 PM
Alright thanks for the sideboard information against combo. I'll try Chalice of the Void and go back to mono-red, which is my preferred build.

Here's another question: There's a good amount of aggro loam in my meta, and I have a lot of trouble against it. Maybe I'm just playing it wrong, but even with 4 Relics in the sideboard, I just can't seem to win. There's always an EE or single shot artifact removal spell to eat the relic, and then Devastating Dreams is gg.

1. How does goblins win against aggro loam. (Is it even possible?)
2. Are there any other sideboard options in addition to Relic of Progenitus?

ScatmanX
10-04-2009, 06:18 PM
1. How does goblins win against aggro loam. (Is it even possible?)
2. Are there any other sideboard options in addition to Relic of Progenitus?

Playing agains´t Agroo Loam is tuff, but it is certanly winnable. With my build, I bring in 4 Relics + 2 Boartusk Liege, which are kind of tuff to kill. You can try P. Needle also, very good vs Loam and Seismic Assault.
Also, you cannot over extend in the MU. Try holding some lands in your hand, and some goblins aswell. If they like, DD for 3, and they kill all your dudes and all your lands, you're preety screwed. Vial is great in this scenario. Surprise guys for free is great.
I also play with Mad Auntie, which is good cause of the regen thing, but it is not needed (and you play monoR).

PS. Other alternative is going super agressive, forcing them to try to DD in the 2nd or 3rd turn, when they can't recover that well.

from Cairo
10-04-2009, 09:04 PM
Playing agains´t Agroo Loam is tuff, but it is certanly winnable. With my build, I bring in 4 Relics + 2 Boartusk Liege, which are kind of tuff to kill. You can try P. Needle also, very good vs Loam and Seismic Assault.
Also, you cannot over extend in the MU. Try holding some lands in your hand, and some goblins aswell. If they like, DD for 3, and they kill all your dudes and all your lands, you're preety screwed. Vial is great in this scenario. Surprise guys for free is great.
I also play with Mad Auntie, which is good cause of the regen thing, but it is not needed (and you play monoR).

PS. Other alternative is going super agressive, forcing them to try to DD in the 2nd or 3rd turn, when they can't recover that well.

I tend to take the aggressive role in this match up. Your late game is not favored. With DD and Loam they will overpower your card advantage and board development. The easiest way to take the lead in this match up is to get them to commit to DD at unfavorable times before their engine is fully online. Lackey effects are really good in the first couple turns of this match, if you can get one down turn 1-2 there is a good chance they don't have spot removal for it. If you can get card advantage early it can go a long way toward keeping them off balance, for instance Lackey'ing out Ringleaders into Stingscourgers or Weirdings to keep the Lackeys connecting. Wasteland is also gold with Lackey effects as your manabase is less needed and if you can shut them off RRR for Seismic you limit them to really only having DD as an out to your swarm.

Humphrey
10-04-2009, 11:12 PM
2. Are there any other sideboard options in addition to Relic of Progenitus?

Try Earwig Squad

Nelis
10-05-2009, 11:04 AM
I play R/b Goblins btw. I cannot win against Loam. Whatever SB strategy I try (Crypt P. Needle or a combination), it doesn't work.


You can try P. Needle also, very good vs Loam and Seismic Assault..

How exactly? It might be the key to my survival :laugh:

Tormod's Crypt never works for me. Or is Relic significantly better somehow?

ScatmanX
10-05-2009, 11:36 AM
Sry... Static Ability... my bad.

In Rb build you have: Relic of Progenitus (imo better than crypt), Boartusk Liege, Mad Auntie, Earwig Squad, Warren Weirdings, and maybe Needle. Again, the MU is not good for us, but is winnable.

GreenOne
10-05-2009, 12:16 PM
I'm not finding Aggro Loam such a difficult matchup.
Vial is a winner, and Stingscourger gains huge amount of tempo. They also are often playing with little removal, so our lackeys are connecting a fair amount of time. We also pack wastelands, and have a waste proof manabase. Relic from the SB is the icing on the cake.

Remember to not overextend unless you're winning now, and that Lightning Crafter is tech against ground stalls and DD.

ScatmanX
10-05-2009, 12:43 PM
Rb can have a reliable manabase agains't them too. Sting is as good as Weirdings here, since I don't think that he attacks very often.
Lightning Crafter is indeed very nice I guess.
When I lose to Agroo Loam is because: A-They put too many fatties down; B- They put Seismic Assault down. With this they kill all your guys and... you.

Nelis
10-05-2009, 03:20 PM
Q1: If Vial is the key do you guys mulligan towards it?

Q2: If I'm not supposed to be overextending then it is inevitable that Seismic Assault will come down and then it's almost always game over. I don't see how that works. I mean I've tried it but it never works out.

But maybe I just side in too little cards so Q3: how many SB cards do you put in and which ones exactly?

Currently I play this list:

4 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Stingscourger
4 Warren Instigator
4 Piledriver

3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron

1 Lightning Crafter
4 Goblin Ringleader

1 Siege-Gang Commander

1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
4 Mire
4 Aunties Hovel
6 Mountain

ScatmanX
10-05-2009, 07:00 PM
1- You don't need to lead if Vial, though is the best play. Lackey and Relic are others 1 drops you're looking for. A hand with Instiagtor + Removal is good too.

2-Yeah, this is tuff. Maybe is better to go agressive more often than hold back. I really need more testing agains't the deck. (Just re-read my own report agains't Agroo Loam. I managed to hold back on game 3, because I had a Relic down, removing his grave, so he couldn't use Loam, nor abuse Assault)

3- what I did was: ''Sideboarding: +4 Relic, +2 Liege, +1 King, -4 Fanatic, -1 Gempalm, -1 Wort, -1Squad.'' Probably should have kept Squad in insted of King.
If I had Instigators insted of Fanatics, I'd take out something like 2 Ringleader, 1 Matron, 1 Sting. don't know.

JMJ430
10-06-2009, 12:22 AM
Im going to 5k this coming sunday and I wanted some more eyes on the deck I'm taking. My list is:

18x Mountain
4x Aether Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Warren Instigator
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Stingscourger
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Piledriver
3x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Pyromancer

Had an idea with Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Sharpshooter and Skirk Prospector. Vial in MWM sac all three to prospector for the mana but it really isnt that useful. its fun if your playing Ichorid but you have to take so much out if you actually put all three cards in or even just two. a real thought i have been having is to maindeck another pyromancer but they are only great if your get the instigator to hit.

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Thorn of Amethyst (trying to get Chalice of the Void)
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
3x Pyrokinesis

Maybe throw in tormods crypt but i really dont know whats gonna be there

FoulQ
10-06-2009, 12:33 AM
You have a major problem: only 18 lands. Sorry, that won't cut it, no matter what. It will lose you so many games. Do you have wastelands in your possession? They are extremely important for the deck and don't feel too bad if you have to buy them, for they are perhaps THE legacy staple.

I'm personally playing 17 mountain, 4 waste, 2 port, but you don't need ports.

If you want a general sideboard, try this: 4x relic, 4x kinesis, 4x needle, 3x whatever. This is what I usually like in varied metagames. You should be packing 4 kinesis in your sideboard in today's meta, there is absolutely no question about that. If anybody disagrees with me, I'm ready to fight for this out back. At the very least you need 4 of some sort of aggro hate in sideboard (and pyrokinesis is usually the preferred tool for that).

Otherwise, looks good. I'm playing 3 SGC and loving it. I don't see how you plan on casting any of them though, and just relying on lackey/insti/vial is a dangerous proposition. My current list is similar to yours, but I moved 3 chieftains to sideboard (3x whatever), not playing pyromancer, only 3 piledrivers, and then the upped land count as I described earlier. It has been the best build I've had since pre-goyf.


About Loam: Don't overextend lands or creatures and cut off as much red mana as possible (if that fails, GG for terravore). I've never had problems otherwise. They die to lackey effects;with instigator, the matchup improves tenfold. The faster the build, the better.

JMJ430
10-06-2009, 01:48 AM
Yeah i feel ashamed playing Gobs without the wastelands and ports but they are costy and ive been putting it off. if i only ran wastelands and no ports do you think 18-19 mountains would be enough. Also should i run relic over tormod, i really like not paying mana. thanks for the help

lorddotm
10-06-2009, 02:28 AM
Yeah i feel ashamed playing Gobs without the wastelands and ports but they are costy and ive been putting it off. if i only ran wastelands and no ports do you think 18-19 mountains would be enough. Also should i run relic over tormod, i really like not paying mana. thanks for the help

Relic>Goyf

flrn
10-06-2009, 02:34 AM
Also should i run relic over tormod, i really like not paying mana. thanks for the help

relic lets you remove single cards in someone´s graveyard, so goyf will grow smaller, if you remove the right cards.

Hanni
10-06-2009, 03:02 AM
Q1: If Vial is the key do you guys mulligan towards it?

Q2: If I'm not supposed to be overextending then it is inevitable that Seismic Assault will come down and then it's almost always game over. I don't see how that works. I mean I've tried it but it never works out.

But maybe I just side in too little cards so Q3: how many SB cards do you put in and which ones exactly?

A1: No. You want to see either Lackey or Vial g1 if you know you're playing Aggro Loam, otherwise, you have no idea anyway. In games 2 and 3, you'll want to make sure you have either Vial, Lackey, or Relic in your opener. If you won g1 and they go 1st, hope and prey they don't Chalice@1. If you win game 2, hope they don't go Chalice@1 in game 3.

A2: Whether or not you -under- or -over- extend is dependant on your current situation. If the opponent has not stabilized yet by playing Burning Wish for a Devastating Dreams, or put a Seismic Assault into play, you want to overextend to kill them before they get to play one of those. If you suspect a Devastating Dreams may be in their hand already, based on the way they are playing, don't overextend. If they do Burning Wish for a Devastating Dreams, or cast Seismic Assault, don't overextend. If they have either of those cards, you have to slow play and gain card advantage until you can either recover from Dreams or answer Seismic Assault.

A3: You want to board in 4 Relic. That's your answer to their Terravore's and Goyf's, as well as their Loam engine and Seismic Assault. In my build, I also bring in 2 Boartusk Liege, since he helps dodge Devastating Dreams, and is the hardest pumper to get rid of (toughness-wise). You'll want to have at least 4 pump Goblins postboard; in most builds, that will typically be 4 Goblin Chieftan. I run 2 Goblin Chieftan MD and 4 Boartusk Liege SB, so my build is slightly off the wall (I like the 4/2 split of Warchief/Chieftan MD, and 4 Boartusk SB is my anti E Plague/Firespout). What to actually drop for these cards, I'll leave that up to you, since I don't know what your build looks like.

GreenOne
10-06-2009, 04:29 AM
A2: Whether or not you -under- or -over- extend is dependant on your current situation. If the opponent has not stabilized yet by playing Burning Wish for a Devastating Dreams, or put a Seismic Assault into play, you want to overextend to kill them before they get to play one of those. If you suspect a Devastating Dreams may be in their hand already, based on the way they are playing, don't overextend. If they do Burning Wish for a Devastating Dreams, or cast Seismic Assault, don't overextend. If they have either of those cards, you have to slow play and gain card advantage until you can either recover from Dreams or answer Seismic Assault.

A3: You want to board in 4 Relic. That's your answer to their Terravore's and Goyf's, as well as their Loam engine and Seismic Assault.
QFT.
A2: just remember that if they DD (likely for 2-3) you gotta have an active vial, or some lackey + other gobbos in hand. You can safely "overextend" as long as you're playing matrons, ringleaders and crafters, cause they actually replace/draw cards, so if you got sweeped, you still have gas. Remember that if they don't have a crusher in play, they usually can't safely DD if you have an active Relic.

Joe_C
10-06-2009, 07:52 AM
18 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gobliln Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer

This is what I am working on at the moment. I definitely like having 3 SCG in combination with the 4 chieftains. I cant see running port since I need the double red more than ever. Thoughts on my board? I play around alot of zoo

GreenOne
10-06-2009, 09:04 AM
This is what I am working on at the moment. I definitely like having 3 SCG in combination with the 4 chieftains. I cant see running port since I need the double red more than ever. Thoughts on my board? I play around alot of zoo
I really like your list except for the SB.

About the SGC I don't know: with 22 lands seems a lot. I'd probably cut one and play one more Gempalm or something, cause I don't feel like 5 slots for removal are enough.

It's surprising, however, how many monored lists are taking into the same direction (cutting piledrivers and ports for chieftains and mountains).
Great minds think alike!

Nessaja
10-06-2009, 09:45 AM
relic lets you remove single cards in someone´s graveyard, so goyf will grow smaller, if you remove the right cards.
Only when you're exiling cards from your own GY you have that choice.

Joe_C
10-06-2009, 12:30 PM
I really like your list except for the SB.

About the SGC I don't know: with 22 lands seems a lot. I'd probably cut one and play one more Gempalm or something, cause I don't feel like 5 slots for removal are enough.

It's surprising, however, how many monored lists are taking into the same direction (cutting piledrivers and ports for chieftains and mountains).
Great minds think alike!

What exactly doesnt appeal to you about the SB? I have answers for what I feel are the larger problems the deck faces. At my last tournament (not playing with Instigators obv) my 2 losses were to ANT(which I expect to lose to unless they have a really slow hand), and Ichorid(game 1 he got way ahead and g2 he played exhume returning Shpinx of the Steel Wind(not expected). Every other match I felt good about the board. I havent found anything else I would prefer in there.

The 3rd Commander is really nice, with technically 8 lackeys in the deck, he hits on turn 2/3 quite often and in tandem with chieftain is pure insanity. Although that is one slot that gets boarded out more often than anything else

GreenOne
10-06-2009, 01:20 PM
What exactly doesnt appeal to you about the SB?

Vexing Shusher: This card is useful only against chalice, counterbalance and counters. Chalice@1 shuts off only 8 cards in our deck, so it's rarely a problem. Counterbalance gets often sided out against gobbos due to our high curve, so I won't side against somenthing that gets sided out. Against counters it can be good if you have mana to spare (in an already mana hungry deck) and if you draw it: you'll never matron Shusher, cause against counter heavy decks Ringleader is usually MUCH better.

Goblin King: The lord ability can be good, but we already have 4 maindeck Chieftain, so it's not needed. Mountainwalk is not great either, cause in the mirror it plain sucks, and every other red-matchup (beside aggroloam and 43 lands) is going to run tons of removal. If we attack and king gets removed before blocks, we're probably in a bad, bad position.

Red Elemental Blast: I'm not in love with this card, even if sometimes it comes in handy. Against merfolk it's a house, but it's already a favourable matchup. Against combo it's good, but we'll rarely win 2 out of 3 matches thans to REB against them. In the control/aggrocontrol matchup it's good but not great (unless they play War Monk). Not that better than the goblins it's going to substitute. We're a mana hungry deck, and waiting one more turn to drop our Ringleader/Matron/SGC is simply something we can't usually afford.

My SB is quite similar to yours except those slots.
Here's the SB I'm playing (and suggesting):
// Sideboard

Must haves:
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer

Good ones:
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
Anarchy really solves problems in a lot of matchups. It might not seem to be that useful, but it takes care of:


- From DTB forum: Rhox War Monk, Pridemage, Humility, Moat, Elspeth, Soldier Tokens (decree or elspeth), Knight of the reliquary, Oblivion Ring, Eternal Dragon...
- From Established decks: Progenitus (!!!), Solitary Confinament (and lots of other things from enchantress), Rafiq, everything in death and taxes, Circle of protection:red, Magus of the Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison, Plated Crystalline and Sinew slivers, ...

And this list is quite old, now you can probably add Tidehollow Sculler, Ajani Vengeant, Sphinx of Steel Wind, and a few others.
This makes Anarchy a good card in the control and the ProBant matchups for example. Instead of a so-so card like REB, you get a game breaking card.

Good, but not greats:
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [WL] Gaea's Blessing

Those are flexible slots, where you can play your REBs, if you like them.
I like the gaea's blessing and how it can win a couple of matchups alone for a single SB slot (I'm currently raping guys testing the new mill-trap card, painterstone, and the random solidarity).
The pithing needles are general utility that comes in handy against manlands, planeswalkers, belcher, Seismic Assault, Jitte, Circle of protection:red, etc.

...

Long story short: -1 Shusher -1 King +2 Anarchy for sure.
And then, if you feel comfortable with REBs it's ok, otherwise try testing Needles, Chalices, Gaea's Blessing, etc.

Space Ghost
10-06-2009, 03:26 PM
About Goblin King- I ran 3 maindeck for a few years, until Chieftain was printed. The whole if he gets removed we're really screwed thing rarely happens. I admit it can happen, but with Lackeys, Warchiefs, Piledrivers, your opponent is usually out of removal spells. I think boarding him may be worth trying. It seems like it'd be good against Plague and Pyroclasm, maybe a house in the mirror, and look at Merfolk and Elves, they run like 8 and 12 lords right? If it works for them why doesn't Goblins run more lords as well?

Joe_C
10-06-2009, 04:32 PM
@Greenone: I used Anarchy for awhile but for me it seems against decks that run humility/Elspeth etc.. you would be waiting too long to cast it and likely they will have a counter for it. I havent restructured my board since upping the chieftains to 4 and running Instigator, so King as you said isnt needed much anymore.

Alecthar
10-06-2009, 04:54 PM
About Goblin King- I ran 3 maindeck for a few years, until Chieftain was printed. The whole if he gets removed we're really screwed thing rarely happens. I admit it can happen, but with Lackeys, Warchiefs, Piledrivers, your opponent is usually out of removal spells. I think boarding him may be worth trying. It seems like it'd be good against Plague and Pyroclasm, maybe a house in the mirror, and look at Merfolk and Elves, they run like 8 and 12 lords right? If it works for them why doesn't Goblins run more lords as well?

Partly because our lords aren't as good. Mad Auntie is appropriate only for the black splash version of the deck, and even then doesn't seem to see much play in multiples, to my knowledge. By contrast, both Imperious Perfect and Merrow Reejerey are fully on-color for their respective decks, and both have better abilities, by and large. Comparing the older lords reveals that Mountainwalk is a far poorer ability in Legacy than Island or Forestwalk. Given the prevalence of Tarmogoyf and Force of Will, both of those landwalking abilities give substantial evasion, whereas Mountainswalk is useful in only a fraction of Deck to Beat matchups (UGr Thresh is the only one I can think of).

Other decks run 12 lords because all 3 unique lords are powerful additions, whereas for us, only 1 of our +1/+1 Lords is really appropriate for the deck's strategy, assuming you're mono-red.

Space Ghost
10-06-2009, 11:56 PM
Zoo, Goyfsligh, Goblins, Burn, Canadian Thresh, Aggro Loam, most Survival decks play mountains. The last 3 decks named aren't played as much as the first 4 but unblockable Goblins seems good to me in all those matchups. I'm not saying the Goblin King is great or that he's staying in my board. But I'm testing it in the board. In a local tourney tonight he was huge against some random black deck that cast turn 1 Plague and in the mirror I mountainwalked for 28 damage to end game 3.

On a side note I got smashed by Merfolk in the finals of said tourney. I was told by many that I win that matchup no problem. Therefore I didn't have shit to board against them. I got fucked over by Daze and Force Of Will game 1 and mana fucked game 2. I was thinking REB would've been great with one Mountain. He Wastelanded my Badland and my Wasteland. I don't know if he just got lucky or what?

Cyrus
10-07-2009, 12:36 AM
What split between warchiefs and chieftains are you guys running? I was like, 2 chieftains/4 warchiefs and now I'm 3/3, but I'm really tempted to use 4 chieftains/2 warchiefs.

Alecthar
10-07-2009, 03:27 AM
Zoo, Goyfsligh, Goblins, Burn, Canadian Thresh, Aggro Loam, most Survival decks play mountains. The last 3 decks named aren't played as much as the first 4 but unblockable Goblins seems good to me in all those matchups. I'm not saying the Goblin King is great or that he's staying in my board. But I'm testing it in the board. In a local tourney tonight he was huge against some random black deck that cast turn 1 Plague and in the mirror I mountainwalked for 28 damage to end game 3.

On a side note I got smashed by Merfolk in the finals of said tourney. I was told by many that I win that matchup no problem. Therefore I didn't have shit to board against them. I got fucked over by Daze and Force Of Will game 1 and mana fucked game 2. I was thinking REB would've been great with one Mountain. He Wastelanded my Badland and my Wasteland. I don't know if he just got lucky or what?

I don't know how I missed Zoo, but yeah, Goblin King offers evasion there. As for the rest: Goblin King is obviously pretty good in the mirror, though he is symmetrical, and is a terrible card to have if you fall behind your opponent in the mirror. I haven't seen many Burn decks that are overly concerned with blocking your guys. Matchups like Zoo, Goyf Sligh, and Aggro Loam are all tough regardless of King because there's a good chance he won't stick around for very long. I'm not saying King is terrible coming out of the sideboard, he isn't, but there are more effective ways to fight E. Plague. I've never played him against Zoo, but I imagine he'd get 1 for 1ed pretty quickly. Interesting thought, though, given that he circumvents the entire "Goyf sitting there blockin' me dudes" thing.

Keep in mind, though, that you asked why we weren't running more lords, not why we weren't talking about King in the board.

As for Merfolk, that's generally a very strong matchup for us. We have a number of advantages, like removal that gets around Standstill (Gempalm, if you're running it) as well as our own Æther Vial. However, the more vulnerable your mana-base is to Wasteland/Stifle, the worse time you'll have. Of course, you also want to have a Vial around, to head off any FoW/Daze shenanigans. That can be tough to accomplish, though, if they start off with the counter-heavy hand.

GreenOne
10-07-2009, 03:39 AM
What split between warchiefs and chieftains are you guys running? I was like, 2 chieftains/4 warchiefs and now I'm 3/3, but I'm really tempted to use 4 chieftains/2 warchiefs.
4/4
Both lords are too good to pass up.

@Greenone: I used Anarchy for awhile but for me it seems against decks that run humility/Elspeth etc.. you would be waiting too long to cast it and likely they will have a counter for it. I havent restructured my board since upping the chieftains to 4 and running Instigator, so King as you said isnt needed much anymore.
Well, without wasteland involved, Moat, Humility or Elspeth comes down on turn 4, and Anarchy comes down on turn 4 too. What's slow in that?
Every card but vexing shusher, vialed dudes and Krosan Grip can be countered. I guess your opponent is going to counter your vials, lackeys, instigators, chieftains, warchiefs, matrons before turn 4. Otherwise, why isn't him dead? :tongue:
Anyway, any deck running 4cc white control cards has to spend its counters on our early "if I resolve this you'll never get a chance to counter anything else" spells. Anarchy will often be safe.

About Goblin King- I ran 3 maindeck for a few years, until Chieftain was printed. The whole if he gets removed we're really screwed thing rarely happens. I admit it can happen, but with Lackeys, Warchiefs, Piledrivers, your opponent is usually out of removal spells. I think boarding him may be worth trying. It seems like it'd be good against Plague and Pyroclasm, maybe a house in the mirror, and look at Merfolk and Elves, they run like 8 and 12 lords right? If it works for them why doesn't Goblins run more lords as well?
Against Plague and Pyroclasm Boartusk Liege is definetly better, and in the mirror King is really risky to play if you're not alpha striking (and if the opponent has removal).

Kris
10-07-2009, 11:24 AM
I haven't posted anything on TheSource yet, but I've been looking at the posts for a while now.

I am a dedicated combo player from the Netherlands, but Goblins got my attention a few months before Goblin Chieftain, let alone Warren Instigator got spoiled. Before this happened, I was already surprised by its (their :P) strength. Now, I will try to get involved in this discussion.

I've tested quite a lot (mainly against Zoo, Landstill (w/ and w/o White), Merfolk, Combo (of course), ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (all kinds), goldfish) and this is my list to go:

18 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gobliln Matron
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 open slot

sb:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 open slots

Explanations, Mainboard:
First, the lands. 22 Lands if probably best, i.e. lower is not enough. I'm not sure we can run 2 Ports in stead of 2 mountains. I don't think Chrome Mox or Gemstone Caverns can make the cut. We can't effort card-disadvantage for moderate, situational speed.

I consider Vial, Lackey, Matron, Ringleader, Chieftain, Instigator, SCG, Piledriver, Warchief, Incinerator all mandatory. The question is in what numbers. Vial, Lackey, Matron and Ringleader is easy: we want 4 (more is not legal). The Warchief could be cut to 3, but I wouldn't like it.
I don't want to run less than 3 Piledrivers, I don't want to run less than 3 Incinerator, I don't want to run less than 3 Instigator, I don't want to run less than 3 Stingscourger, I don't want to run less than 3 Chieftain, I don't want to run less than 2 SCG. I think I made my point clear:

There is 1 open slot in Goblins (IMHO) !! And it can be everything:
4th Piledriver always good, maybe not necessary.
4th Instigator maybe too much lackey-effects, 'cause you need goblins in hand to drop.
4th Chieftain, very good addition, but also maybe too much lords (this had my preference at the moment).
23rd land
Something geeky like Lightning Crafter, Kiki-Jiki, Goblin Tinkerer, Thorn, ReB, anything.

I'd like to hear from you what you think about this.

Sideboard:
As proposed earlier above, 4 Relic and 4 Pyrokenisis are mandatory against too much. Then, because you are mono-red now, you will (!) need an answer against Plague. It is still seen play too much to ignore it. You already have Chieftain, but more answers is better. And Boartusk Liege survives double Plague. So I consider 2 Liege also mandatory.
Then I'm not quite sure, Goblins can't side too much out, so you will need some answers where Relic and Pyro doesn't help against. This is first of all COMBO. But you have to ask yourself, do I want to spend sideboard space for a (slight) chance to win this matchup. If your meta is filled with (good) combo-players (like mine), then I believe you cannot neglect this match-up. Thorn is the best card against Combo. Pillar is more versatible, since it's also pretty good against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.
Goblin Tinkerer kills Dreadnought, Explosives, Chalice, Moxen/LED, artifactland, Top, and probably a lot more. Tinkerer also kills some large artifact, but only once.

Other good options are:
Zo-Zu, the Punisher (against Loam/Landstill).
Jitte against Jitte.
Goblin Sharpshooter.
On the latter, how good is he? I've tested him a bit, but how strong is he? It all depends on your boardposition, but my experience is that he's not always that strong. As in, you don't always want to tutor for it, and if you draw it, it's not exactly what you want. Sharpshooter has been a must-have a few years a go, but does it still make the cut?

Let me know what you think.

1maarten1
10-07-2009, 02:40 PM
I haven't posted anything on TheSource yet, but I've been looking at the posts for a while now.

I am a dedicated combo player from the Netherlands, but Goblins got my attention a few months before Goblin Chieftain, let alone Warren Instigator got spoiled. Before this happened, I was already surprised by its (their :P) strength. Now, I will try to get involved in this discussion.

I've tested quite a lot (mainly against Zoo, Landstill (w/ and w/o White), Merfolk, Combo (of course), ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (all kinds), goldfish) and this is my list to go:

18 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gobliln Matron
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 open slot

sb:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 open slots

Explanations, Mainboard:
First, the lands. 22 Lands if probably best, i.e. lower is not enough. I'm not sure we can run 2 Ports in stead of 2 mountains. I don't think Chrome Mox or Gemstone Caverns can make the cut. We can't effort card-disadvantage for moderate, situational speed.

I consider Vial, Lackey, Matron, Ringleader, Chieftain, Instigator, SCG, Piledriver, Warchief, Incinerator all mandatory. The question is in what numbers. Vial, Lackey, Matron and Ringleader is easy: we want 4 (more is not legal). The Warchief could be cut to 3, but I wouldn't like it.
I don't want to run less than 3 Piledrivers, I don't want to run less than 3 Incinerator, I don't want to run less than 3 Instigator, I don't want to run less than 3 Stingscourger, I don't want to run less than 3 Chieftain, I don't want to run less than 2 SCG. I think I made my point clear:

There is 1 open slot in Goblins (IMHO) !! And it can be everything:
4th Piledriver always good, maybe not necessary.
4th Instigator maybe too much lackey-effects, 'cause you need goblins in hand to drop.
4th Chieftain, very good addition, but also maybe too much lords (this had my preference at the moment).
23rd land
Something geeky like Lightning Crafter, Kiki-Jiki, Goblin Tinkerer, Thorn, ReB, anything.

I'd like to hear from you what you think about this.

Sideboard:
As proposed earlier above, 4 Relic and 4 Pyrokenisis are mandatory against too much. Then, because you are mono-red now, you will (!) need an answer against Plague. It is still seen play too much to ignore it. You already have Chieftain, but more answers is better. And Boartusk Liege survives double Plague. So I consider 2 Liege also mandatory.
Then I'm not quite sure, Goblins can't side too much out, so you will need some answers where Relic and Pyro doesn't help against. This is first of all COMBO. But you have to ask yourself, do I want to spend sideboard space for a (slight) chance to win this matchup. If your meta is filled with (good) combo-players (like mine), then I believe you cannot neglect this match-up. Thorn is the best card against Combo. Pillar is more versatible, since it's also pretty good against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.
Goblin Tinkerer kills Dreadnought, Explosives, Chalice, Moxen/LED, artifactland, Top, and probably a lot more. Tinkerer also kills some large artifact, but only once.

Other good options are:
Zo-Zu, the Punisher (against Loam/Landstill).
Jitte against Jitte.
Goblin Sharpshooter.
On the latter, how good is he? I've tested him a bit, but how strong is he? It all depends on your boardposition, but my experience is that he's not always that strong. As in, you don't always want to tutor for it, and if you draw it, it's not exactly what you want. Sharpshooter has been a must-have a few years a go, but does it still make the cut?

Let me know what you think.

Nice to see another dutchman active in this thread :smile: Ok, first some things about ur MD; 4th instigator is NOT overkill ;). This because he is actually is a strong beater too with some lords. Also 3 piledrivers is ok, but i dropped to 2 since you now have an other very strong 2C drop. For the rest, I am truly enjoying the 8 ''lords'', and havent found any reasons to cut on em. That last slot is something i agree with you about, its optional; i personally run Kikki there since i found him pretty awesome once again, but that might be something personal :tongue: .

About the sb:
I suggest you look at what green_one stated above, but if you dont want to put effort in scrolling i'll try telling in short :cool: . The 4 RoP, kinesis and 1 tinkerer is pretty solid, then i would chose for 2 anarchy and 1 sharpshooter for reasons green_one stated above(damn you actually have to scroll now :cry: ) Sharpshooter is actually still really usefull. The lieges in your board are a bit overkill i think when you are playing 8 lords maindeck (or maybe 7 ) Since with WI in the MD now, you will have more loards sooner, so i dont think there needed anymore.

Hope i helped you a little :smile:

~Maarten

Malchar
10-07-2009, 03:09 PM
I'd still recommend using Boartusk Liege in the sideboard against Engineered Plague. Without a Liege in your deck, you can't win through two plagues. Knowing that, your opponent will readily mulligan into at least one plague. One plague usually buys the opponent enough time to find the second.

I like the idea of cutting down on Goblin Piledriver. I actually have been experimenting with it for a long time. The only problem is that it weakens the matchup against Merfolk. I opt to use Pyroblast rather than Pyrokinesis to make up the difference.

What do you use Goblin Sharpshooter for?

Nelis
10-07-2009, 03:11 PM
Nice to see another dutchman active in this thread :smile: Ok, first some things about ur MD; 4th instigator is NOT overkill ;). This because he is actually is a strong beater too with some lords.

About the sb:
I suggest you look at what green_one stated above. Sharpshooter is actually still really usefull. The lieges in your board are a bit overkill i think when you are playing 8 lords maindeck (or maybe 7 ) Since with WI in the MD now, you will have more loards sooner, so i dont think there needed anymore.


I'm Dutch and you even know me. :cool:

Green One actually didn't offer any explanation for Sharpshooter (or did I miss it?). So I wonder in which match-ups it's useful. EDIT: and Malchar just beat me to it.

I encountered Engineered plague the other day and it was hardly a problem because of Chieftain. So I wonder if the extra Lieges really are that important.

Joe_C
10-07-2009, 03:16 PM
I'm Dutch and you even know me. :cool:

Green One actually didn't offer any explanation for Sharpshooter (or did I miss it?). So I wonder in which match-ups it's useful.

Elves, goblin mirror, Ichorid, combo (if they Empty the warrens)

My rationality behind running 4 Instigator is it draws counter, having 8 lackey effects is huge, even if the first time you attack it doesnt further your game plan, its a card the opponent must answer

ScatmanX
10-07-2009, 03:40 PM
Elves, goblin mirror, Ichorid, combo (if they Empty the warrens)

I like agains't Merfolk too, once Sharpthooter + Knesis ( and Gemplam)rocks them, even with a lord out or more.

Humphrey
10-07-2009, 04:07 PM
The question for me is, what is more effective. having king mb and board bloodmoons oder magusmoons or have another chieftain and price of progress sb

Moosedog
10-07-2009, 04:18 PM
Ok been reading forum for a while playing goblins for much longer than that and just can’t sit on the sidelines anymore…anyway I don’t understand why everyone still seems to be obsessed with R/B or mono red goblins. I have been playing R/G goblins and doing pretty good with them. Since local success doesn’t prove much I also got 3rd and a nice tabernacle at the .... (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/search.php?searchid=355098) With the printing of Chieftain and definitely now with instigator goblins is definitely back. By back I don’t mean it will start dominating I mean it will be used more, which in turn means people will board against it more. This is where grip comes into play. It seems as though grip will be needed to continue to compete over the coming months. Correct me if I am wrong in assuming that people haven’t already deemed boartusk and the other black options a viable answer.

Also am I behind on the times but when did cutting all or mostly all piledrivers for chieftains become a viable option? Also people discussing chieftains over warchiefs? What is happening? Is this a fundamental shift in goblins or just people trying out things because they are new and exciting? Is there going to be 2 different types of goblins out there in the future? (I am highly skeptical that there isn’t an optimized version)

Also I don’t think this discussion has directly taken place; but can we possibly come to a conclusion about which color(s) of goblins are best for the typical diversified legacy meta? Please don’t consider cost and please do not even mention blue, (and I think you shouldn’t mention white but I think I’ll just piss off a lot of people saying that) In my o so humble opinion I clearly think R/G gives the best chance but I will try to briefly present the advantages of each, unless someone else beats me to it, because I have to get back to work now. sorry

Joe_C
10-07-2009, 04:30 PM
there are a ton of wastelands out there. This is my reasoning behind mono red, I personally wouldnt drop below 4 warchief, the reduction in cost/haste is a big tempo boost. as far as piledriver, you really only need 2 at most to win games and he is not so great on his own.

Malchar
10-07-2009, 07:57 PM
I think that white is one of the best splashes. It offers enchantment removal just like green. It also has the best creature removal spell in the game - swords to plowshares - although I personally do not think it's that great in goblins. Finally, it offers a great anti-combo card in Orim's Chant. Combined with the otherwise commonplace Pyroblast, you can even the odds against combo decks. There are also a few innovative cards that could end up leading this splash to be the best of all: Crib Swap and Mirror Entity.

The black splash offers a number of interesting creatures from Lorwyn-Shadowmoon block. It also has Leyline of the Void, which is more useful than Relic of Progenitus in certain situations. It also offers a great creature removal spell - the best one for goblins - Warren Weirding. The biggest problem with the black splash is that you still have no answers to enchantments of which a number are gamestoppers for goblins (even besides Engineered Plague).

The green splash offers enchantment removal in Krosan Grip, which is probably better than any white enchantment removal. However, a wise opponent will usually be able to negate any advantage that you would gain from split second. Green also offers Piledriver pumpers like Skarrg, the Rage Pits and Berserk. However, green lacks any additional creature removal, and despite there being a number of multicolored red/green goblins, there aren't any seriously playable options.

The blue splash is called Merfolk.

The only real advantage to mono red is the ability to be essentially immune to Wasteland in a general sense where you're not losing land and you can't be ruined by recurring Wasteland. It also offers immunity from being denied a color in which case all your splashed cards in-hand become dead. Then again, you don't gain any of those luxurious splashes anyway. The other advantage to mono red is the ability to be immune to Stifled fetchlands ie. you could run a decklist without any fetchlands. Mono red is able to solve a few problems that the deck constantly faces:
Combo - Pyrostatic Pillar, Chalice of the Void, Leyline of the Void
White Enchantments - Anarchy
Engineered Plague - Boartusk Liege
Fatties - Stingscourger

However, you still lack true enchantment removal and true creature removal.

Edit: I personally play mono red because my meta has a very large amount of Wasteland and Stifle, and because I think that mono red's answers to problems such as combo and enchantmetns are as good as the answers provided by any other splash.

ScatmanX
10-07-2009, 09:59 PM
The black splash offers ...Leyline of the Void, ...mono red cause I think that mono red's answers to problems such as combo and enchantmetns are as good as the answers provided by any other splash.

Truth be told, you want Leyline in your opening hand so, it really doesen´t mater what collor you splash. I never see people actually casting it.

And mono red has as good anwesers to combo and Enchanaments, as Krosan Grip and Seal of Primordium for the latter, and discard for the 1st? I don´t think so.

EDIT: ok, saw your resoning, but: Combo can go off trough Pillar, and the other ones are ´´colorless´´. Anarchy is good. Grip is far more versatile than Liege (which I run in Rb sb). Stingscourer don´t remove. It is awesome when you´re winning, but then so Weirdings. When you´re facing a fatty, and have only 1 Sting in your hand, you will curse yourself.

FoulQ
10-07-2009, 11:19 PM
@ Moosedog: I pretty much agree with you. I've been playing RG goblins forever now, but now I'm testing out Mono Red because I like the empowerment of playing 17 mountains.

Malchar, you have to realize that the green splash basically plays like monored. The green splash is not nearly as heavy a splash as the black splash. Basically, grip, and often hooligan.

Hooligan haters be gone! He is a beast. He kills vial. Vial wars define the mirror match, and the only way merfolk can beat us is if they get a billion lords out which is only achievable with vial. So he wins that matchup too. He also kills jitte in that matchup and other matchups. He also is a huge tempo gain against countertop, and can really screw with landstill's plans. Worst case scenario he is a 2/1 for 1R, which frankly has gone the distance for me a couple times.

I swear, if somebody brings up the "disynergy" with warchief, I will not be pleased. This has been tested extensively by tons of people and HE WORKS. Try it yourself before judging him.

Tin Street Hooligan is awesome. true story. RG plays like monored, I only played him and grip in my deck, sometimes a couple sideboard chokes. I posted back a few pages why RG is awesome so I'll leave it at that.

For the typical diversified meta, RG and Mono Red are definitely the best. Mono gives you stifle/wasteland invincibility. This is very important if you want to go round after round and win based on playskill rather than luck/bad matchups. But green offers grip/hooligan, which also serves to negate luck in matchups by opponent's who draw all their plagues or jittes. The problem I see with RG is that pithing needle answers all the things grip/hooligan answer except for plague and vial (admittedly the two biggest). So I'm trying pithing needle as a FOUR OF right now to see if it can fully replace grip/tsh.

Hanni
10-07-2009, 11:51 PM
The problem I see with RG is that pithing needle answers all the things grip/hooligan answer except for plague and vial (admittedly the two biggest).

I'm guessing you meant something other than Vial there.

---

Also, I like Chieftans/Boartusk's better than Krosan Grip against E Plague because they are still Goblins when the opponent doesn't draw their E Plagues.

FoulQ
10-08-2009, 12:31 AM
No I did mean vial, because needle shutting down vial would be like boarding in pyroclasm for the mirror matchup.

Grip is usually too anti-synergistic to board in just for vial against goblins/merfolk. That's where TSH comes in as a beater, a goblin, and a vial/jitte killer for vial mirror matches.

Against E plague decks I think there are lots of other targets. In landstill we have factories, EE, disk, crucible, etc, the list goes on forever there. In countertop we have shackles which is a major problem oftentimes for me personally (TSH great here as well of course haha). In rock decks there is pernicious deed and top, both can generate significant card advantage for the rock player. In suicide strategies there is jitte.

I've never really had a problem with grip being able to target something. Often, the decks that board in plague, we can afford -1 card in our hand if the grip doesn't come in handy for a little bit, and if they lay their "bomb" deed or plague, we can nuke it pretty easily.

I'm personally a fan of the safety valve grip because it might not win us games like chieftain, but it will never lose us games like chieftain can when there is an active jitte on the table.

Hanni
10-08-2009, 01:18 AM
Gotchya.


I'm personally a fan of the safety valve grip because it might not win us games like chieftain, but it will never lose us games like chieftain can when there is an active jitte on the table.

Goblin Tinkerer and Shattering Spree can answer Jitte though. Same thing for any other artifact, like Vedalken Shackles.

The only value I see for splashing green for Grip, rather than have a stable manabase in mono red or getting a ton of goodies going black, is to be able to answer stuff like Moat and Humility.

Space Ghost
10-08-2009, 02:25 AM
I'm sorry but I think anybody running less than 4 Warchiefs is retarded. He may be the best Goblin ever.

Mantis
10-08-2009, 03:21 AM
Goblin Tinkerer does not answer Jitte in a reactive way and that's very important to keep in mind. I mean you probably aren't going to proactively use a Matron to fetch your lone Tinkerer so you will need to bring 3-4 copies which is undesirable.

Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic and Siege Gang Commander allow you to play around Jitte for a while. Krosan Grip is probably the best answer to Jitte, although Jittes of your own pull the trick off as well. To be frank, I hate making sacrifices in your manabase as a stable manabase is key to winning tournaments in my opinion.

Eatatjoes
10-08-2009, 05:48 AM
So has warren instigator been accepted as a staple for the deck now? Should i pick up 4 of these, or wait on them, are they an auto include like all the other gobs? Or is everyone still testing him out

GreenOne
10-08-2009, 06:02 AM
So has warren instigator been accepted as a staple for the deck now? Should i pick up 4 of these, or wait on them, are they an auto include like all the other gobs? Or is everyone still testing him out
It's a staple. Someone is playing him in 2-3 copies, but the general feeling is that it's an automatic 4of.

Joe_C
10-08-2009, 07:21 AM
I'm sorry but I think anybody running less than 4 Warchiefs is retarded. He may be the best Goblin ever.

Indeed. Along with chieftain he is the nut high. My favorite play with the deck is turn 1 lackey, turn 2 attack, lackey in warchief, pay 2 for matron to search for piledriver, turn 3 get damn close to winning.

Ectoplasm
10-08-2009, 08:48 AM
A tinkerer does not answer a jitte, sorry. He needs haste to do so and take a guess which goblins are the first ones to bite the dust with a jitte on the table?

(nameless one)
10-08-2009, 08:53 AM
So would Shattering Spree be enough?

GreenOne
10-08-2009, 09:07 AM
So would Shattering Spree be enough?
Pithing needle is usually less narrow.

Nelis
10-08-2009, 10:51 AM
Nobody considering cards like Duress, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy as SB cards for R/b because of their versatility? I always get back to these cards in my SB. They allow you to fight combo (I hate not being able to fight combo) and at the same time are not dead versus other match-ups since they're an 'answer' to all possible problem cards.

At the moment I'm considering this sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize

This leaves 3 slots which can be filled with all possible cards already mentioned or I might put in an additional Thoughtseize and/or Pyrokinesis

Malchar
10-08-2009, 10:51 AM
I knew that I would forget to mention an important card. Tin Street Hooligan is probably the best card that you get with the green splash.

One of the fundamental problems is that no goblin can touch an enchantment. The only way is to splash non-goblin cards. At that point, one reaches a slippery slope where it is really tempting to add other things. For example, the green splash could simply side in 4x Tarmogoyf against Engineered Plague/Ghostly Prison etc. Tarmogoyf vs. Krosan Grip; which is the better non-goblin? I am not saying Tarmogoyf is better, but one has to keep it in mind.

I think that it is safe to say that anyone who runs mono red with fetchlands might as well change over to a light green splash. It is even possible to have the 1x Taiga in the sideboard for increased safety. My problem is that I don't even feel safe using fetchlands anymore. It is definately a large change, and I don't feel too confidant either way.

Edit: Warchief is one of the best goblins. However, much of its power comes from the combo with Goblin Piledriver. With a Warchief on the battlefield, a Piledriver costs only R, comes out with haste, and swings for at least 3 (with the Warchief). I have won many games by simply exploding onto the battlefield with huge hastey Piledrivers.

The problem with Warchief is that Piledriver is starting to get cut from some lists. This makes Warchief less amazing. However, I still like Warchief and I would use it even with zero Piledrivers. The reduced mana cost is extremely important. It allows goblins to stay ahead of the opponent on mana, and it works great in conjunction with Wasteland, Aether Vial, and Rishadan Port.

I think that if people need to start cutting things, after Piledriver, perhaps consider Goblin Matron.

Ectoplasm
10-08-2009, 11:35 AM
There is no 'problem' and piledriver isn't the only card that works well with warchief :D I don't know about you, but I like to be able to wasteland my opponent/port him and be able to still play guys, and I like being able to ringleader and immediately play some dudes off of it and, even better, swing with them. I also like to be able to matron for anything and swing with it.

Honestly, there isn't any reason *not* to play the full set of warchiefs since they're basically the biggest tempo-advantage available to a deck that already leans on tempo, a cumulative mana-reduction (it doesn't just emulate a landdrop, it makes the 2nd and 3rd goblin cheaper as well which adds up to 2 or 3 cheated landdrops) and haste which effectively doubles the tempo-gain.

Joe_C
10-10-2009, 09:10 AM
Pithing needle is usually less narrow.

usually in matchups where I expect jitte I try to keep hands that have pyrokinesis so they will never get a chance to swing with an equipped creature.

Greenone: here is my newly designed board for approval :wink:

4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gempalm Incinerator (2 maindeck)
2 Boartusk Liege
2 Anarchy (why the hell not?)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

GreenOne
10-10-2009, 01:36 PM
usually in matchups where I expect jitte I try to keep hands that have pyrokinesis so they will never get a chance to swing with an equipped creature.

Greenone: here is my newly designed board for approval :wink:

4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gempalm Incinerator (2 maindeck)
2 Boartusk Liege
2 Anarchy (why the hell not?)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
APPROVED! :laugh:

You chose the remeaining 3 slots based on what you expect to encounter: 1 Gempalm cause you probably expect the mirror and tribal matchup quite a lot, and the Liege against damage based removal and plague. I like it!

Tacosnape
10-10-2009, 06:20 PM
So after a lot of testing and thought, I'm starting to second guess Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard over Tormod's Crypt. The logic being, an enemy deck has to have a pretty strong graveyard engine for me to want to board in hate and drop my Goblin count. The three most common things I think I see where I need graveyard hate are:

1. Ichorid. I've seriously lost a ton of games where the game state turned irrecoverable at the time where my board was "Tapped Land, Relic." With Crypt, I don't need mana open to crack the thing, and I can spend my mana dropping Lackeys, Vials, or whatever.

2. Anything with Life From The Loam. In theory? Relic's better here. However, with Aggro Loam arguably being the most common Loam deck and them being able to Chalice-1, sometimes it's easier to get the Crypt going.

3. Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, or other weird graveyard-based combo. Crypt is faster.

Relic's good against Tarmogoyf and Crypt isn't, no debate. However, against most decks packing Tarmogoyf? Relic still isn't worth boarding in. Only in the Aggro Loam matchup do I find myself aching for Relics. So why do I have a card in my sideboard that's good in a situation where I will usually still leave it in my sideboard?

P.S.
10-10-2009, 06:43 PM
...and that's why I've been playing Tormod's Crypt the entire time. In fact, even a few pages page, I remember stating that I wasn't going to bring in hate just for Tarmogoyf as I would be bringing in Sideboard hate in like every single match-up! :smile:

Malchar
10-10-2009, 11:50 PM
Tormod's Crypt is likeley to pump Tarmogoyf more often than it shrinks it. Relic lets you whittle away your opponent's graveyard resource (or your own) if needed. Alternatively, you can blow it and actually make their Tarmogoyfs into 0/1's. I would only use Crypt if I have my own graveyard combo to worry about.

FoulQ
10-11-2009, 12:05 AM
@ Taco: Please don't forget that relic draws a card. Especially in the loam matchup, this is great when you need all the lands/ringleaders/vials you can get. And Loam is perfectly capable of laying chalice for 0 as well, so if you really want to combat them, I recommend a 3/1 or a 2/2 split.

I think the 2 mana is pretty easy to reach with goblins, since it does run more lands than most legacy decks. Yes it is mana hungry, but if you are activating relic, it is usually worth the two/one mana investment over some red dork (if you only board it against decks like loam, breakfast, ichorid, etc.).

I use to play a 2/2 split of relic/crypt, and then I wen to 3/1, and now I'm at 4/0 like I was when relic was released. The cantripping is amazingly saucy.

I do not board it in against tarmogoyf decks unless I have some really dead stuff (such as against canadian).

Tacosnape
10-11-2009, 12:22 PM
Tormod's Crypt is likeley to pump Tarmogoyf more often than it shrinks it. Relic lets you whittle away your opponent's graveyard resource (or your own) if needed. Alternatively, you can blow it and actually make their Tarmogoyfs into 0/1's. I would only use Crypt if I have my own graveyard combo to worry about.

You're missing the point. The point is, against 80%+ of decks with Tarmogoyf, you shouldn't be boarding in any form of graveyard hate whatsoever.


@ Taco: Please don't forget that relic draws a card. Especially in the loam matchup, this is great when you need all the lands/ringleaders/vials you can get. And Loam is perfectly capable of laying chalice for 0 as well, so if you really want to combat them, I recommend a 3/1 or a 2/2 split.

They're -capable- of having a Chalice for 0, but then that means I get to freely cast my Aether Vials and Goblin Lackeys. And I'm not really arguing that Relic is the weaker choice against Aggro Loam. Just that it's closer than currently thought, and that Crypt is probably better in most other matches sans Survival.


I think the 2 mana is pretty easy to reach with goblins, since it does run more lands than most legacy decks.

Ichorid's capable of doing a lot of damage before you get access to the mana to activate Relic. Relic also forces you to keep mana open here, which can be a pain. I'd much rather be able to lead with Land, Lackey, Crypt than Land, Relic. Then I can spend my resources either killing Ichorid's land or dropping out more Goblins as fast as possible, giving them far less time to recover from the graveyard reset.

Ectoplasm
10-11-2009, 12:31 PM
I just love boarding in a couple of relics against canadian thresh. Watching their already limited threats shrink into pathetic little nerdlings that die when a ringleader blocks them is just too good :)

georgjorge
10-11-2009, 01:15 PM
As an Aggro Loam player, I keep boarding out Chalices against Goblins (I find that Diamond + Chalice isn't common enough to justify a card that's not very good after the first turn) for some Duresses, though I know not everyone thinks like that. I also care little for Crypt, it's a small speed bump where Relic is a major problem. So maybe it comes down to if you fear Ichorid more or less than Aggro Loam (also, Relic is arguably better against Ichorid than Crypt against Loam).

FoulQ
10-11-2009, 01:50 PM
I was just about to say this too, what georgjorge said. A lot of aggro loam players in my area actually board out chalice against goblins, especially on the draw.

Yes Crypt is better against ichorid. But I think relic is better in every other matchup, and overall has more versatility and utility as a sideboard card. For example: Oxidize is the premier artifact hate spell, but naturalize does that and enchantments for just one more mana. Which would you rather devote a whopping 3/4 sideboard spaces too in an average magic the gathering meta? (obviously moot because of krosan grip's existence, but you get my point)

Kris
10-13-2009, 10:38 AM
What do you think about this list?
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Instigator
4 Warchief
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Incinerator
2 Piledriver
2 SGC
18 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Relic
4 Pyrokenisis
1 Sharpshooter
1 Tinkerer
5 open slots
(Probably 2 Anarchy and 2 Boartusk Liege and 1 open slot)

Explanation:
Instagator and Chieftain are too good not play as staple. Green only gives you Hooligan and Krosan Grip. Everyone is playing Pridemage so Dreadstill is as good as dead. I never see Shackles, so Hooligan is not needed (by far). So Krosan Grip should be needed to kill Enchantments? The only enchantment I care about is Plague and Moat. The latter isn't played that much, and Plague can be answered by Chieftain (I play 4) and Boartusk Liege. These are the advantages of Green. Now lets look at the advantages of mono-red: no vulnerability for Wasteland. Goblins is mana-hungry. I always hate being Wasted. No more vulnerability for Stifle (they get played A LOT). I always hate being Stifled. No more damage loss. 3 life is a lot. People always say, that doesn't matter too much, but I've experienced otherwise. All these 3 adv's are very important against Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, something played a lot.

About the sideboard. How much does Thorn/Pillar improve your combo matchup?

So what do you think about this list?

EDIT: And what and how do you sideboard against:
i) Zoo
ii) Landstill
iii) Merfolk
iv) Rock
v) ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
etc

Ramirez777
10-13-2009, 06:26 PM
I'm running a very similar deck Kris, but I'm not quite happy with it yet. My only problem with the deck, is that running 8 x 1cc spells (Lacky/Vial) doesn't seem to be enough. Having played around with the deck, there have been a lot of hands I've drawn that do not have a single first turn play/response. So the question is, can we add in another 1cc spell; Lightning Bolt, Tarfire? I can't really find another 1cc Goblin that I would really want to play. If not, I think I would rather splash another color, so I can play Swords/Path.

Cyrus
10-13-2009, 07:31 PM
There's always goblin sledder: sinergy with instigator. But he otherwise sucks.

Tacosnape
10-13-2009, 08:14 PM
I've been having fair luck with the following list lately.

8 Red Fetchlands
4 Plateau
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

This is still in heavy testing, but I've come to the following conclusions. And this is a lot of rambling, so bear with me.

1. I want Swords to Plowshares. It's 1CC and is fantastic at being quick, efficient removal to help both Lackey and Instigator, and it helps keep me from being run over as badly by decks like Zoo, or the Mirror when I lose the roll.

2. I like having the one Stingscourger. I don't really want more than one, but I like being able to tutor for a means to push a Lackey/Instigator through. The mere fact that I have one in my deck means the opponent needs to keep two blockers open if they can't remove one of my power guys.

3. I think that the time is going to come where, aside from the fetchlands, Bloodghast is the most format-shaping card in Zendikar. People around here are already abusing it in BG Madness with Survival, Zombie Infestation, Imp, Mongrel, etc. I've seen it as a kill condition in Mono Black Control. People are running it in Ichorid. It's everywhere. Goblin Sharpshooter, in addition to being able to reach, mess with combat math, and kill a ton of other things like Lavamancers, Confidants, Elves, Goblins, etc, is capable of machine-gunning down an army of attacking Bloodghasts without batting an eye. I like this.

4. I like Piledriver, I like Gempalm, and I like Chieftain, and all three are pretty terrible if my board's clear. So until I try the 4 Chieftain/4 War Marshal/0 Driver build out I've been toying with, 2/2/2 is my split. This will probably change eventually.

Kris
10-14-2009, 08:18 AM
Ramirez: We used to have 12 turn1 drops, but I've always disliked Mogg Fanatic. Against so many decks (especially) today it was (even before the rule-changes) very moderate.
I believe our deck now is better, but because it is better you expect more from it. We now have a much(!) better turn2 drop: Warren Instigator. And a much(!) better turn3 drop: Goblin Chieftain. Especially together they are very strong.

Tacosnape: Running White for StP is personal preference. I like and dislike it. All disadvantages are: Wasteability; Stifleability; damage from fetch; Not having white when needed; StP is not a goblin so it can't be searched for; and Goblin Ringleader gets worse. The advantages are: StP is a darn good card: best removal in magic; extra sideboard choices.
Stingscourger is good in multiples. You don't really want to search for it, you just want to draw into it (for instance with Ringleader). Stingscourger also gets better with more Chieftains.
I believe Sharpshooter is a sideboardcard. Even with Bloodghasts and Ichorids.

kabal
10-14-2009, 09:33 AM
1. I want Swords to Plowshares. It's 1CC and is fantastic at being quick, efficient removal to help both Lackey and Instigator, and it helps keep me from being run over as badly by decks like Zoo, or the Mirror when I lose the roll.


Oh how the tide has shifted ... :wink:




Summarized neatly, here's why you splash, in order of power:

1. Warren Weirding (Black)
2. Tin-Street Hooligan (Green)
3. Enchantment Removal (Green)


You are saying white isn't worth splashing for StP?



I think Eldariel's sort of right on here. White offers fantastic answers to problems in ways goblins can't capitalize on. White just flat out doesn't offer you any good Goblins ...

Puzzle
10-14-2009, 09:59 AM
I haven't played in the last two years, so I'm rusty and probably mising something obvious but I'd appreciate some more explanations about dropping Piledriver.

I see the point of Chieftain with Instigator but the lists that comes with them now all seem to be based on 22 lands (including 4 Wasteland), eight 1-drops (Vial + Lackey), six 2-drops and the rest above.
Say you get 1 of either Lackey or Instigator in the opening hand, what happens if he dies ?
- there isn't much to do below 3-mana.
- Vial will take long (turn 4) to reach 3 counters to get things going.
- you generally cannot use Wasteland as you need its mana. God forbid it gets wastelanded itself.
- 22 lands seems light to reliably reach 3 lands on turn 3.
So, if the Lackey or Instigator dies, the deck just seems to lose its tempo.

It just seems to me that the curve has moved way too high. I understand the power-boost of Chieftain but tempo used to be what Gobs thrived on and this seems weaker now. This seems to put it at a disadvantage against more aggressive decks and combo, while leaving time for control to get set up.

Again, I may be missing something but I'd appreciate more explanations about how this change improves matchups.


Edit : talking of mono-red lists.

ScatmanX
10-14-2009, 10:51 AM
Do you guys think that EE is good agains't Zoo?

Tacosnape
10-14-2009, 12:31 PM
@Kabal: I stand by what I said. White doesn't offer you any good goblins. I've also stated that I felt that White was the only color option that answered every problem Goblins faces, albeit none of them most optimally.

The dynamic of the playing field has changed greatly, also. Fanatic's now terrible. Zoo's emerged as probably the top deck in the format. Warren Instigator exists. The format's faster. I like Swords to Plowshares as of late.