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ScatmanX
10-14-2009, 01:29 PM
I disagree with Taco in this one.
1st: I still don't think Fanatic is terrible. I run him in my last champ, and loved it, agains't Merfolk and Zoo (It kills Lavamancer, which is a must kill for us)
2nd: If Zoo is the main reason you're splashing white, then that's nonsese, because you can add in MonoR or Rb (or Rg) Lightning Bolt, that kills 16 of they're 22 Creatures, and you have Warrens Weirdings (which is a goblin btw) agains't the rest.
3rd: I don't get why Warren Instigator make StP better than Stingscourer for instance. If the goal is to remove a blocker, usa a goblin card that can do it, right?
4th: The format became faster. ok. Agains't combo, Bolt is better. Agains't control, bolt give us more reach also, and they rarely run big creatures. Agains't agroo, bolt kills almost everything (exept goyf, but then again, you can have Weirdings), and agains't Aggro-Control, whell, I do trink Stp Is better than bolt here.

Ramirez777
10-14-2009, 06:04 PM
Thanks for all of the replies regarding the lack of 1cc plays in the deck. I will probably just go with Lightning Bolt or Swords, but I'm still thinking in different directions. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I haven’t located it. Would it be a terrible idea to run a blue splash almost specifically for Stifle? With all the new fetch lands having been released, and the huge amount of non-basics running around, it doesn't seem to be an entirely bad idea. It would also give us access to Fire//Ice. This build would require the use of Rishidan's Ports & Wastelands to push the resource denial path.

I'm asking about this to save myself some testing time, as I'm preparing for a local tournament at the end of October. Thanks for any and all feedback.

FoulQ
10-14-2009, 07:30 PM
It has been discussed.

Unplayable.

And you don't need more than 8 one drops. You actually assume the control role in many aggro mirror matches (zoo, merfolk) and against the other decks having a slow curve isn' that bad, because goblins isn't about winning as quickly as possible.

JMJ430
10-14-2009, 09:38 PM
Ive been running a monored build with instigator and chieftain and i now have the opportunity to get a playset of ports and wanted some advice on my manabase. I want to run ports and wastelands but i know with the double red cc i need to watch how many mountains i run. Could running skirk prospector be a viable option or is that a horrible idea

Gibsonmac
10-14-2009, 09:54 PM
I think that if people need to start cutting things, after Piledriver, perhaps consider Goblin Matron.

Why would you ever cut matron?

Gibsonmac
10-14-2009, 10:07 PM
Ive been running a monored build with instigator and chieftain and i now have the opportunity to get a playset of ports and wanted some advice on my manabase. I want to run ports and wastelands but i know with the double red cc i need to watch how many mountains i run. Could running skirk prospector be a viable option or is that a horrible idea

you could indeed, I would replace removal for them (Incineraator/stingscourger) prolly run a max of 3 prospectors and like 2/2 split for removal or simply 3 incinerators..

my old build ran wastes, ports, and 8 fetch, I used the prospector to tighten things up... really depends n your meta, there are so many good gobs right now I switched to 17 mountains and 4 wastes

JMJ430
10-14-2009, 10:28 PM
@Gibsonmac: Thanks, did you run 4 ports and wastelands? If so how many mountains did you run? Did you cut the port fro any reason, were they working out for you?

FoulQ
10-15-2009, 12:01 AM
Running 4 ports, 4 wastelands with: 4 instigators, 4 warchief, 1-3 sgc, 1-4 chieftain has been tested and does not work. I suppose if you run terrible cards like skirk prospector it might be viable. But please, let's just avoid running prospector and not worry too much about port, because decks it is good against are on the decline anyways.

My manabase seems to be unique from everybody else, and looks like this:
17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

It has been awesome. You can go 8 fetch/3 dual/6 mountain as well if splashing.

JMJ430
10-15-2009, 12:27 AM
@FoulQ: Not to question your build, im just trying to get my own build together, but is running just two ports worth it?

Does anyone else have a different take on a monored manabase?

Sweetwater D
10-15-2009, 01:37 AM
Question for you, FoulQ.

I've been running a mana base similar to yours:

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

I'm just getting back into legacy and haven't gotten to do too much testing with subtle changes in the mana base yet. Have you found the extra mountain to be needed?

Kris
10-15-2009, 08:05 AM
FoulQ: Your manabase isn't unique, I tried it also ;). As well as that of Sweetwater. But you said it yourself, decks that are really vulnerable to Port are on the decline anyway. I've found that running the 2 Ports is not that good. Now you are still vulnerable to Wasteland; mostly you don't have any spare mana to tap a land and if you do, it's not that great; let alone the disadvantage that Instigator costs RR, which you always want to be able to play on turn 2. The thing is, you want to keep hands like Mountain, Waste, Port, Instigator and 3 random goblins. On the play those hands will be risky with 16 Mountains left on your 53 card deck.
At the moment I'm in dubio wether to play 22 or 23 lands. I believe that 18 Mounains, 4 Waste is the best manabase for 22 lands in monored. And if you add 2 ports, then you need to play another land.
I also found that I missed Piledriver too much, so that I now play 3 Piledriver, 3 Chieftain.

Have you guys seen the this list (Jonathan Benson) piloting 1st out of 40 Meandeck Tournament.
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-gang Commander
3 Stingscourger


Basic Snow Lands
18 Snow-covered Mountain

Lands
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Zo-zu The Punisher

First note is that it contains 61 cards mainboard (I found out really late). Lets analyse this. Apparently, he played consistent with 22 lands in 61 cards (I suppose he did win at least 8 matches). The Mog Warshalls can obviously be exchanged for Instigator. My list now has a better curve, and better cards. So I should have a better deck?

Again, how much does Thorn improve your combo matchup? 'Cause it Thorn or Pyrokenesis as 4 off.

Let me know.

ScatmanX
10-15-2009, 09:50 AM
@FoulQ: Not to question your build, im just trying to get my own build together, but is running just two ports worth it?

Does anyone else have a different take on a monored manabase?

In testing, 23 lands and 2 ports have been great for me. They randomly lock a color from an oponent, or complement Waste, but as you don't want to see more than 1, jus run 2, or 3.

@ \kris: That list is really nice indeed, but I'd cut Thorn from the sb. I'd like to see his matches. I belive that he won the champ inspite of it, rather than becouse of it. Would like to see a report or something about that, because the SB is very diferent from the ordinary.

@Sweetwater D: I, like many, like 23 lands, because goblins is so mana hungry, it't better to get flooded (which you never really are, once if you draw a matron or ringleader or SGC you should use all the mana available) than screwed.
Also, if you want just one person to respond, send a pmsg. This is public.

PS: If my friend ain't using my lightning bolts in his Ugr Dreadstill in a champ this weekend. It is a heavy zoo meta. Will wright a report next week.

Ectoplasm
10-15-2009, 10:11 AM
and not worry too much about port, because decks it is good against are on the decline anyways.

You mean every deck out there? I'm very sorry but I can't see any reason not to run the full 4 ports, if you can, in a tempo-based deck like Goblins. Especially now we're playing 7 or 8 lackeys on top of 4 vials *and* 4 warchiefs, the things you can do to your opponent with ports and wastelands is just unfair.

Nothing is more brutal than completely locking your opponent out of the game by wasting and porting all of his lands while your vial ramps up, leaving your opponent's deck and the measly strategies he was trying to pursue in ruins.

Wasteland? Your opponent actually wasting his landdrop to get rid of your port only means you did what you tried to do, even better, you just lost the 1 mana to keep doing it.

Edit: This is of course referring to a mono-red build. I run RGB myself, including 2 ports due to colour-fixing issues but I'd run more if it wasn't suicidal.

(nameless one)
10-15-2009, 10:23 AM
so the conclusion of this is run 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands if youre running a mono-red or a Rx splash?

I know goblins are manahungry but is 23 really necessary? Im running 21 lands right now and so far, its never been an issue. The question is: on mono-red, is it advisable to run 6-7 Fetches to thin the deck? In a long run, it does help Goblin Ringleaders (Filtering your lands at the bottom of your library is pointless when you shuffle it after a Matron). Topdeck mode is also improved with this. Although not by as much, I wont mind taking that minute plusses in topdecking statistics. But I do face the dilemma of starting the game at 14 life for consistency.

Anyone?

Ectoplasm
10-15-2009, 10:36 AM
I personally wouldn't bother running fetchers in monored, unless you get manaflooded (and I mean 7-8 lands-manaflooded) excess lands is almost never a problem since you can do stuff like vial in matron, get ringleader, play him and play some more goblins or at the very least shoot with your siege-gang.
Sure, it makes your ringleaders a little better but then again that's the only thing they do :) IMO that doesn't justify taking the damage or even running into stifles.

If I played monored I'd go for 15 mountains and 8 wastelands/ports.

Gibsonmac
10-15-2009, 12:07 PM
@Gibsonmac: Thanks, did you run 4 ports and wastelands? If so how many mountains did you run? Did you cut the port fro any reason, were they working out for you?


I did run 4 ports and 4 wastes, with 8 fetches and 7 mtns (actually 4 mtns and 3 taiga for tin street hooligan same difference) now I just run 4 wastes and 17 basics, I cut the fetches because stifle is everywhere, then cut the ports cause of RR cost on instigator, and you usually don't want to spent 2 mana every turn to tap a land anymore when you can hit and run with a wasteland... just my take on the deck, try it out, I wouldn't run ports unless you play the full 4

Gibsonmac
10-15-2009, 12:17 PM
Have you guys seen the this list (Jonathan Benson) piloting 1st out of 40 Meandeck Tournament.
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-gang Commander
3 Stingscourger


Basic Snow Lands
18 Snow-covered Mountain

Lands
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Zo-zu The Punisher

First note is that it contains 61 cards mainboard (I found out really late). Lets analyse this. Apparently, he played consistent with 22 lands in 61 cards (I suppose he did win at least 8 matches). The Mog Warshalls can obviously be exchanged for Instigator. My list now has a better curve, and better cards. So I should have a better deck?

Again, how much does Thorn improve your combo matchup? 'Cause it Thorn or Pyrokenesis as 4 off.

Let me know.

Thorn sucks v. combo, well it depends which, TES is usually too fast for it to matter, so is belcher, it really is only usable against a slow steady ANT...

also off that list, I'd cut the marshals and a stingscourger for the instigators and leave the piledrivers and lords at 4 each, try out 17 mtns and 4 wastes, I think it works very well and it brings you back to 60.

Moosedog
10-15-2009, 01:28 PM
Has anyone considered that running 4 instigator and upping the cheiftan count isn't worth cutting all the ports? I played this list w/out instigators (2 mogg war marshal) instead, and it worked well. I'm going to use this and see how it goes.

RG Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Pliedriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Seige Gang Warrior
2 Stingscourger
2 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Instigator
2 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Ring Leader
4 Aether Vial
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
6 Mountains

FoulQ
10-15-2009, 05:23 PM
Before I respond, my build is different than other peoples' because I'm not entirely sold on chieftain.

// Lands
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
17 [B] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [M10] Pithing Needle

The sideboard is a work in progress, but so far I like bringing in chieftains in a lot of matchups actually. I find that he adding +2 damage from instigator isn't really that fabulous. I'd rather run goblins that do not focus on p/t ratios, because we are outclassed in that department by basically every deck. Pithing Needle is there because I'm lazy. Probably could be Magus of the Moon or something.

I'm running the 1 chieftain not really as a tutor target (though that works), but mainly like people are running jitte in zoo. The 1-of mise can sometimes be useful in the late game.

The most important thing about my build is 3 SGC. People used to do it back when there weren't so many "playable" goblins all the time. But then they stopped. I feel this is a mistake. I always want one every game, and with 8 lackeys, he becomes godlike. I usually don't have too much of a problem casting him with 23 lands, 8 lackeys, and 4 vials.

Finally, the 3 piledrivers. People going down to 2 or even 1, I'm curious at this decision. I love to see one piledriver a game, but usually not more than that. He demands your attention in the late game, like instigator does in the early/mid game. Such a late game tool in such a not-landstill type of deck I think is really useful. Plus, he is obviously great against merfolk.



@FoulQ: Not to question your build, im just trying to get my own build together, but is running just two ports worth it?

I don't really run port because of port. I run it because I want 23 lands and when I'm flooded I don't want to sit there doing nothing. One can say that being flooded is okay with goblins, but even this deck can hit a packet of lands and just lose as your opponent plays cards that are pound for pound more efficient than yours. Ports act as waste 5-6 more than anything. They give you something to do with excess mana, but can still occasionally win games like port does. Playing 2 ports as waste 5-6 is different than playing "4 port 4 waste." They serve different roles in the deck at that point. I'd rather play instigator, warchief, and sb chieftain though than the +2 ports. So even just -2 port makes the strategy in goblins go from "synergy + denial" to "synergy + must answers + complementary denial that becomes effective in case I get mana flooded." The wastes and ports in the deck I don't use like I used to, where I'd waste people to try to mana screw them. Usually only waste utility lands unless I can see that screwing them will be very advantageous, or if I have excess mana.

Playing 2 ports come down to very much the fundamental way in which you approach goblins. Some people are in the 4 or none camp, but I think a middle approach can still be useful as a strategy to help even the consistency of your deck, more than anything.


FoulQ: Your manabase isn't unique, I tried it also ;). As well as that of Sweetwater. But you said it yourself, decks that are really vulnerable to Port are on the decline anyway. I've found that running the 2 Ports is not that good. Now you are still vulnerable to Wasteland; mostly you don't have any spare mana to tap a land and if you do, it's not that great; let alone the disadvantage that Instigator costs RR, which you always want to be able to play on turn 2. The thing is, you want to keep hands like Mountain, Waste, Port, Instigator and 3 random goblins. On the play those hands will be risky with 16 Mountains left on your 53 card deck.
At the moment I'm in dubio wether to play 22 or 23 lands. I believe that 18 Mounains, 4 Waste is the best manabase for 22 lands in monored. And if you add 2 ports, then you need to play another land.

I don't think the vulnerability to wasteland is very important. I LOVE monored because I mulligan less. With a one mountain hand and some one drop(s) (depending on if on play or draw of course), I can keep it. This is not really true with a dual or a fetch, where one stifle or wasteland can ruin my day. However, I'm not going to be keeping hands with port as my only mana source, and if they do end up wasting my port and I need it desperately for the mana, I think I have different concerns about upping the land count more than anything. I have come into the situation a few times with instigator and not RR on turn two, but overall I think my manabase has been very effective.


Question for you, FoulQ.

I've been running a mana base similar to yours:

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

I'm just getting back into legacy and haven't gotten to do too much testing with subtle changes in the mana base yet. Have you found the extra mountain to be needed?

Yes I have. You definitely want the 17th mountain, mainly to more reliably get RR on turn two. It does depend on your curve though. I am running 3 SGC.


PS: If my friend ain't using my lightning bolts in his Ugr Dreadstill in a champ this weekend. It is a heavy zoo meta. Will wright a report next week.

I am very interested to hear how this experiment goes. To be honest, I've been very dismissive of lightning in the past and haven't tested it in more than a year problem. With this zoo meta (Though things may be shifting again soon), I think it has potential to keep the manabase monored. Tell me how it works out, if you play them.


You mean every deck out there? I'm very sorry but I can't see any reason not to run the full 4 ports, if you can, in a tempo-based deck like Goblins. Especially now we're playing 7 or 8 lackeys on top of 4 vials *and* 4 warchiefs, the things you can do to your opponent with ports and wastelands is just unfair.

Nothing is more brutal than completely locking your opponent out of the game by wasting and porting all of his lands while your vial ramps up, leaving your opponent's deck and the measly strategies he was trying to pursue in ruins.

Wasteland? Your opponent actually wasting his landdrop to get rid of your port only means you did what you tried to do, even better, you just lost the 1 mana to keep doing it.

Edit: This is of course referring to a mono-red build. I run RGB myself, including 2 ports due to colour-fixing issues but I'd run more if it wasn't suicidal.

You have great points here and I completely agree. That's why I'm a port holdout and still running 2. Especially the argument towards wasting ports I feel is very relevant: then port basically did its job. My problem is with the increasing amount of RR in the deck. I value my instigators and sb chieftains more than port in the current metagame. Plus, there is the argument that port is "win more," but I don't know if I totally agree with this.


so the conclusion of this is run 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands if youre running a mono-red or a Rx splash?

I know goblins are manahungry but is 23 really necessary? Im running 21 lands right now and so far, its never been an issue. The question is: on mono-red, is it advisable to run 6-7 Fetches to thin the deck? In a long run, it does help Goblin Ringleaders (Filtering your lands at the bottom of your library is pointless when you shuffle it after a Matron). Topdeck mode is also improved with this. Although not by as much, I wont mind taking that minute plusses in topdecking statistics. But I do face the dilemma of starting the game at 14 life for consistency.

Anyone?

Rb you may not be able to run 4 ports. Especially the new age builds with aunties/earwigs you can not do this at all. Look at Media's or Waikiki's builds on the previous pages. Media has a great tourney report with a new age Rb goblin deck.

The decision to run port largely depends on how much RR you are running and how reliably you want to hit it.

Do not run fetches in mono red. Sometimes one land hands are keepable with a basic mountain, or two basic mountains, or etc, but not with fetches. Goblins already has to mulligan a lot. A heavy fetch manabase makes them mulligan more. Sometimes a splash can be worth it for a fetch manabase, but monored you are really gaining nothing from it. In today's aggro metagame, I care more about the few lifepoints against zoo or a similar deck rather than the very minute and statistically insignificant gain from a few fetches.

Thanks for all the replies! See you guys again soon.

Mantis
10-18-2009, 06:45 AM
I think we can safely say that fetchlands in Mono Red give you a significantly less good matchup against Tempo Thresh, Dreadstill (and any other deck with Stifle) and Mono Red Burn. If Stifle and Mono Red Burn were non existant, I doubt we a significant difference in matchup outcome between running fetchlands or not. If you agree with me on the above, we can say that it's strictly better to not run Fetchlands in mono red.

1maarten1
10-18-2009, 11:00 AM
Has anyone considered that running 4 instigator and upping the cheiftan count isn't worth cutting all the ports? I played this list w/out instigators (2 mogg war marshal) instead, and it worked well. I'm going to use this and see how it goes.

RG Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Pliedriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Seige Gang Warrior
2 Stingscourger
2 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Instigator
2 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Ring Leader
4 Aether Vial
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
6 Mountains

Well, this is kinda an ''old'' list. Many people used this before WI came out. So yea it works well, but now its the question if the build with WI is better?
IMO it it.

~Maarten

Tacosnape
10-18-2009, 03:52 PM
The problem with the logic of not running Warren Instigators is that "Deck X was good before Card X got printed" is not an excuse not to run Card X if Card X is better than some number of cards in Deck X.

Threshold was an excellent deck before Tarmogoyf was printed. Storm Combo was an excellent deck before Ad Nauseum was printed. How many of them aren't running Tarmogoyf and Ad Nauseum because of this?

So while you might do quite well with a pre-instigator Goblin list, because they're not really any worse than they were before, you'll do better with Warren Instigator.

Gibsonmac
10-18-2009, 04:10 PM
agreed, there is no reason not to run instigator, the card is simply too good not to play it.

Nessaja
10-18-2009, 07:35 PM
I'm playing Rb goblins, RR is starting to become a problem I notice;

4 Goblin Lackey

4 Goblin Pliedriver
4 Warren Instigator

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Matron

4 Goblin Ring Leader

1 Seige Gang Warrior

3 Warren Weirding
3 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
5 Mountains

I guess it's to be expected with 21 lands, I could add another land but I mostly feel like the wastelands aren't even doing that much for its inclusion. When you look at the cards that need 2 R to be cast

Warren Instigator
Goblin Warchief
Goblin Chieftain
Siege Gang Commander

It's actually pretty significant to have that RR, the current card selection needs RR turn 3. I could drop some incinerators I suppose... but still, they've been doing more for me then Wastelands lately, unless I cast an Aether Vial I'm absolutely not in a position to be going a mana denial route (I should go to 23+ lands for that, IMO).

Looks like I'm answering my own question here.. But I'm still interested in how other people are dealing with the RR cost.

FoulQ
10-18-2009, 09:38 PM
Hi, I'm back again. Just placed at a 46 person tournament the other night, drew in the finals. I have a few observations I'd like to share. Here is my tournament report with my list for reference:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=392421#post392421

#1. Please stop splashing, unless your meta has very little to no wastelands and stifles.
@ the green splash: the primary reason is for the tin streets and grips. Plagues can be fought with chieftains/boartusks. Vial is a great play to tin street, but most decks playing it are already a good matchup, and in the mirror match, there really aren't that many green lists out there. And there are ways to work around jitte, and many decks that play jitte (fish/merfolk) are already great matchups.
@ the white/black splash: warren instigator forces your opponent on the defensive. He keeps YOU in the driver's seat, and once goblins is forced out of the driver's seat is when goblins loses. Warren weirding solved this problem before, but its effect is good against some decks and horrible against some others. Instigator will always be somewhat awesome.
@ mono red: I have never had to mulligan less with this deck in my entire life. I mulliganed twice in my first round, twice in my second round, and then twice in the sixth round. I am known to mulligan pretty aggressively so this is pretty impressive for a mull-heavy deck like goblins. The deck's major problems can no longer be solved by weirding/plowshares or by krosan grip.

#2. I think this thread has been pretty much completely converted, but if you are not playing some amount of warren instigators, you are playing a suboptimal list. Look above in the black/white splash as to why he is so awesome.

#3. Goblin Chieftain is great and all. He won me games, plain and simple, but as a 4-of that is very demanding on deck space. I have said it once and I'll say it again: I don't think we should be focusing on efficient P/T because we are already so outclassed by other decks. Merfolk has 12 lords. Control decks have a 4/5 for 1G. Zoo has a 3/3 for a G. And so forth. I think he is a good late game card though, so 1-2 and maybe 3 I think is the best way to dveote to your maindeck. I also think he gets significantly worse when people are playing 1 siege gang commander. I like my chieftain count at 2 with a whopping THREE siege-gang commanders because we now have 8 lackey effects at our disposal. Test it out, maybe you will agree with me, but going nuts crazy over chieftain and 4-ofing him in every list I think is a mistake.

#4. Please never cut wastelands. @ Nessaja, I'm only playing 17 red sources and I'm having little to no troubles getting RR on time. But I'm only playing 3 instigator/2 chieftain right now.

(nameless one)
10-18-2009, 10:05 PM
How many Boartusks should I run on my sideboard if I want to battle the Plagues? And what should I side out?

Gibsonmac
10-18-2009, 11:13 PM
How many Boartusks should I run on my sideboard if I want to battle the Plagues? And what should I side out?

2(probly 3 if you don't play 4 chieftain mb), depends what you are facing, warchief sometimes, stingscourger/incinerator sometimes


@FoulQ, agreed, no reason not to play mono-red now, I like your list, 3 SGC is the new hottness, but would the 2 ports perhaps be better as the 4th instigator and piledriver? or is it a meta call, just wondering...

FoulQ
10-18-2009, 11:32 PM
Hi Gibsonmac. I explain my manabase (it has been flawless) back on page 176:

"I don't really run port because of port. I run it because I want 23 lands and when I'm flooded I don't want to sit there doing nothing. One can say that being flooded is okay with goblins, but even this deck can hit a packet of lands and just lose as your opponent plays cards that are pound for pound more efficient than yours. Ports act as waste 5-6 more than anything. They give you something to do with excess mana, but can still occasionally win games like port does. Playing 2 ports as waste 5-6 is different than playing "4 port 4 waste." They serve different roles in the deck at that point. I'd rather play instigator, warchief, and sb chieftain though than the +2 ports. So even just -2 port makes the strategy in goblins go from "synergy + denial" to "synergy + must answers + complementary denial that becomes effective in case I get mana flooded." The wastes and ports in the deck I don't use like I used to, where I'd waste people to try to mana screw them. Usually only waste utility lands unless I can see that screwing them will be very advantageous, or if I have excess mana.

Playing 2 ports come down to very much the fundamental way in which you approach goblins. Some people are in the 4 or none camp, but I think a middle approach can still be useful as a strategy to help even the consistency of your deck, more than anything."

I would also add that I feel port + vial is extremely strong in the 3-5c control matchup, such as countertop, landstill, etc, AKA will win the match by itself. I've been testing the landstill matchup a little with this build and without 4 ports it has become significantly more difficult to knock off their black for plagues, WW for Humility/Elspeth/WoG, and so forth.

It basically comes down to trying to make the deck more consistent in its mana production. Some would argue that I can get the same mana base consistency with 19 mountains and 4 wastelands, and some would argue that 18 mountains and 4 wastelands works just fine, but I still like the edge port brings to the control matchup and randomly screwing opponents who keep land light hands.

If they know you are playing port from g1/g2, they also approach their hand much differently. It forces the opposing player to adjust his strategy. All for +1 land over most builds and then -1 mountain, still not having any troubles getting RR consistently? Sign me up. (To some degree it is a meta call, but the reasons above point to it being much deeper than that)

@ (nameless one): This is not an easy question to answer. How many chieftains are you running in the 75? How many plagues do you expect, and out of what decks? Are you splashing; are you playing black with earwig squads, or green with krosan grip, or maybe something techy like leave no trace / serenity in a white splash? What decks do you think will be playing plague against you: rock/deadguy, landstill, countertop, eva green, suicide black, pox, or what exactly? Do you plan to face a lot of firespouts and pyroclasms, as liege is good against those cards as well? What else do you feel is necessary in your sideboard, and comparing the risk of plague versus the necessity of SB staples like relic and pyrokinesis?

Consider all those questions when you are thinking about how many plague answers (specifically boartusk for you) you want to run. I am currently running 2 chieftains md and 2 sb for this very reason (though both chieftain and boartusk, as well as king, have other obvious implications).

(nameless one)
10-19-2009, 12:04 AM
I have 3 Chieftains on MB. I currently own only 1 Liege do compensate with it by running 1 King. Also, wouldn't Blood Moon be better than Magus of the Moon? Sure the Magus can go for beats but Blood Moons don't die to creature removal (except for Putrify and Grips)

Also, has anyone tried a single Valakut (maybe 2) with the manabase? I would imagine this deck having more than 5 Mountains in play late game and still would draw Mountains. Free Lightning Bolts seems alright. I know it dies to Wasteland but an opponent wasting a Valakut seems fine as it acted as a landbase disruption.

FoulQ
10-19-2009, 12:17 AM
I have 3 Chieftains on MB. I currently own only 1 Liege do compensate with it by running 1 King. Also, wouldn't Blood Moon be better than Magus of the Moon? Sure the Magus can go for beats but Blood Moons don't die to creature removal (except for Putrify and Grips)

Imagine Magus of the Moon coming in off Aether Vial. The way vial works, if you vial in a Magus, and the Magus is in play, the opposing player can no longer float their desired mana with their duals.

Magus of the Moon isn't necessarily a lockdown piece like it might be for dragon stompy, but another "must answer" card that forces the landstill/countertop player to deal with so we have a better likelihood of resolving stuff like ringleader and SGC. Blood Moon would pretty much serve this same purpose yeah. But then...

Magus dies to removal yeah, basic plains. It is usually a bad play to side it in against canadian or zoo or other stretched manabases that can take advantage of their new mountains by bolting the magus, because they aren't control decks in the same sense as landstill.

I haven't tested him enough for a confident answer, but I don't think he is worth boarding in except landstill and a handful of fringe decks. You decide if that is worth the sideboard slots for your meta.

And I have not really looked into Valakut, but it can be very important to curve out with this deck against a lot of the format (why many times it is actually the correct play to ignore daze), so the CITP is really a deal breaker. We aren't really looking for lightning bolts anyways in situations where it's ability would be used; once we have an insurmountable card advantage lead it's too late for the opposing deck(which will obviously be the plan of attack at a stage of the game where we have 6 mountains), and that 3 damage is not going to be significant enough to hurt our chances of curving out. The one highlight would be getting rid of stuff like nacatls vs. zoo, but if we have 6 mountains then I think the match has probably already pretty much been won anyways, unless zoo gets some wicked burn topdecks.

MogulKahn
10-19-2009, 12:18 AM
Valakut comes into played tapped an is only useful by the time you have the 7th land. Doesn't seem to be too useful.

Nessaja
10-19-2009, 06:33 AM
Grats on your finish FoulQ

@ the white/black splash: warren instigator forces your opponent on the defensive. He keeps YOU in the driver's seat, and once goblins is forced out of the driver's seat is when goblins loses. Warren weirding solved this problem before, but its effect is good against some decks and horrible against some others. Instigator will always be somewhat awesome.
I don't think that Weirding was competing with Instigator, instead it competes with Stingscourger and I do think that it's quite a bit better then stinger. Although Stinger gets better the more haste effects you play.


#3. Goblin Chieftain is great and all. He won me games, plain and simple, but as a 4-of that is very demanding on deck space
......
I like my chieftain count at 2 with a whopping THREE siege-gang commanders because we now have 8 lackey effects at our disposal. Test it out, maybe you will agree with me, but going nuts crazy over chieftain and 4-ofing him in every list I think is a mistake.
I think his major asset is actually the haste and not so much the +1/+1 even though both are great. Haste is really what sets goblins apart from other aggro decks, you can more or less entirely circumvent sorcery speed mass removal because of it. Also, Goblin Chieftain has such great synergy with your 2 drops, both Piledriver and Instigator immediately become a force to be reckoned with when you just have a chieftain in play.
However... more SGC's seem like a good choice too, I do believe that playing SGC's more or less requires you to also play a high land count (as you are doing). But it's definitely worth testing.

Tacosnape
10-19-2009, 09:43 AM
Imagine Magus of the Moon coming in off Aether Vial. The way vial works, if you vial in a Magus, and the Magus is in play, the opposing player can no longer float their desired mana with their duals.


Not to necessarily argue against Magus, but this isn't the best of arguments as it relies completely on the element of surprise. If it's known you run Magus by any means, they can float the mana in response to the activation of Aether Vial.

FoulQ
10-19-2009, 09:50 AM
Yeah Taco, so they are either taken off guard and screwed, or they have to float a mana every time you tap your vial with 3 counters.

But honestly, the situation seems to come up rarely that you A) have a vial on the field that has gone uncountered or undestroyed against a deck like landstill, and B) have a magus of the moon in your hand in a deck that has no draw engine for non-goblin cards. I mean, either A or B can happen quite often, but together it seems rare.

I'm not really a MotM fan in this deck. He's got a very powerful ability, but put into context and analyzing him matchup-by-matchup I don't think he is worth it.

HdH_Cthulhu
10-19-2009, 02:25 PM
My testing showed that MotM is crap in Goblins. I also tested Blood Moon and came to the same result.
Moon is just not good enogh in Goblins. Now i run Pyroblast instead of the Moons.

Maybe Moon is only good if you run a Dragonstompy manabase...

ScatmanX
10-19-2009, 05:44 PM
Regarding my decklis on the report, comenting the discussions here:
I like Rb. And it showed results also. Just check the report sesison. Weirding and Earwig Squad were great for me.
I like MotM, since people don't expect it. I've never seen someone float mana to kill it in Vial activation...
I like Bolt again. Tested and, though it wasn't great, it was very solid all champ. I was never sad to see one.
I play trough Stifle and Wastes. Canadian Thresh Wasted me 3 lands on the champ, but I only played/searched for Badlands when wanted to cast something black. Stifle only hit Matrons and Ringleaders.
Port was nice. not very used this time, but never screwed me.
Chieftains will go to 3, and Instigator to 4.

lillelassie
10-19-2009, 07:40 PM
Okay I admit being new to these forums and all, but I have been playing goblins for a long time. I dont know where else to post this. Regarding splashing in goblins I know that in Vintage R/u had some minor succes. I'm not suggesting the typical FoW/Daze build though, but what about running a classic Goblin list and simply splash blue for Standstill and add Mutavaults over Ports? Seems rather good with Vial/Lackey/Instigator/Incinerator/creatures on board etc. Or is Standstill best utilized in a more controllish deck?

If this has been broad up already, bring it to my attention please :)

Space Ghost
10-19-2009, 09:58 PM
Standstill is not a Goblin. Ringleaders and Matrons are the shit in this deck because they generate card advantage. I don't think you'd need to play Standstill to help draw cards when the deck is perfectly capable of gaining card advantage already. Blue splash has been discussed already in this thread and it's already been decided it sucks. Think I'm wrong? Splash blue, test it in a tourney, and post some positive results.

@ Bloodmoon debate. I played it for a while in the board. It was ok. The term sub-optimal comes to mind. It just didn't screw people over enough, unless I was playing Tariq White. I decided to play more combo hate in the board instead because the decks Bloodmoon was ok against I was able to win most of the time without it.

Humphrey
10-19-2009, 10:32 PM
I revisited my SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Earwig Squad

what u guys think?

Reasons:
Leyline: Obviously against all gravebased decks. Dredge Loam and ca help against Goyf
Needle: EE, Deed, Top, Fetchlands, Planeswalker and whatnot
Thoughtseize: Everything
Tinkerer: LED, Vial, Top and such
Squad: Plague, Combo, Loam etc

FoulQ
10-19-2009, 11:21 PM
My testing showed that MotM is crap in Goblins. I also tested Blood Moon and came to the same result.
Moon is just not good enogh in Goblins. Now i run Pyroblast instead of the Moons.

Maybe Moon is only good if you run a Dragonstompy manabase...

Same here. I'm considering pyroblast right now.


Regarding my decklis on the report, comenting the discussions here:
I like Rb. And it showed results also. Just check the report sesison. Weirding and Earwig Squad were great for me.
I like MotM, since people don't expect it. I've never seen someone float mana to kill it in Vial activation...
I like Bolt again. Tested and, though it wasn't great, it was very solid all champ. I was never sad to see one.
I play trough Stifle and Wastes. Canadian Thresh Wasted me 3 lands on the champ, but I only played/searched for Badlands when wanted to cast something black. Stifle only hit Matrons and Ringleaders.
Port was nice. not very used this time, but never screwed me.
Chieftains will go to 3, and Instigator to 4.

I think Rb is definitely good. Weirding is a great spell. Earwig helps in the combo matchup a ton. Beyond that though, I think with instigators and chieftains along with only 8 one drops, this deck is starting to mulligan too much and lose to itself. Not getting a crucial lackey connection, not getting RR, etc, should not be things we are concerned about. We should try to make this deck consistent without losing too much power. Mono Red will obviously be the most consistent and Warren Weirding is a great spell but, necessary with instigator on the field?

I didn't mean to say "Oh, take out your weirdings and put instigators in. They replace each other," but I can tell why it might be conveyed like that. What warren weirding does is kills off blockers. Well, no duh. More subtly, it allows goblins to continue the aggro role. That's why warren weirding is not good against zoo or merfolk most of the time. Because we are not trying to continue an aggro role, we are trying to survive to the late game to use our card advantage engines that those decks do not possess.

Now instigator. He does the same thing: allow goblins to continue to be in the beatdown - in the driver's seat, so to speak. He forces the opponent to think twice, sort of like piledriver, but he is a god by himself and with others, unlike piledriver. Does that mean 4 of? That's still up for debate. I run 3 as of now because I don't find him to be very good in the aggro matchup and my meta has quite a bit of merfolk/zoo right now (I now play the 4th copy in the sideboard). Funny thing, you can tell though, who regularly tests goblins: those that don't almost always say, "I'm not so sure about instigator." Because he rocks :)

I don't want to have to play through stifle/waste. I want to focus on killing canadian thresh with goblins. I like making half of their deck irrelevant (since a lot of their deck is based on the gains FROM stifle/waste). I would argue that splashing for warren weirding doesn't really increase your matchup % against them that much. But that's for another day. I do hate that matchup.

About Moons, I kind of feel like it is danger of cool things. It is an awe-inspiring effect. It feels great to resolve one and watch the opponent's dreams get crushed. But drawing it and casting it against those decks, with the major tempo loss that comes with it, is another story. If that moon gets dazed you may have just lost the game then and there from losing a crucial turn 3 warchief play or something along those lines.


Okay I admit being new to these forums and all, but I have been playing goblins for a long time. I dont know where else to post this. Regarding splashing in goblins I know that in Vintage R/u had some minor succes. I'm not suggesting the typical FoW/Daze build though, but what about running a classic Goblin list and simply splash blue for Standstill and add Mutavaults over Ports? Seems rather good with Vial/Lackey/Instigator/Incinerator/creatures on board etc. Or is Standstill best utilized in a more controllish deck?

If this has been broad up already, bring it to my attention please :)

Eldariel wrote a goblin fish thread awhile ago (AWHILE ago), though it is different than what you are mentioning, and the blue thing has been tested by many and it doesn't work. Just doesn't work in legacy. If you want to test it for us with this new meta shift you go ahead, but I think you are going to get the same results. Like Space Ghost said, we don't really need a card advantage engine. I am not in top deck mode very often with this deck. That's what I love about it, it is a consistent aggro deck that doesn't have to play by heart of the cards that often. That's what makes it so successful over so many years, and why it has consistently stayed in the DTB forum over so many years.

@ Humphrey, it really depends on your MD. 1 Tinkerer is not going to do anything. I tested leyline for about two weeks in Rb, it was worthless for me. 4 Squads is a lot, and Needle can be kind of lackluster sometimes. It really depends on your mainboard more than anything, since goblins sometimes plays 3 or so "sideboardy" cards, like tin street hooligans, mad aunties, earwig squads, goblin tinkerers, to some extent stuff like goblin chieftain and warren instigator.

Humphrey
10-19-2009, 11:42 PM
my mb

// Lands
6 [BD] Mountain (2)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [6E] Swamp (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [REW] Wasteland
3 [B] Badlands

// Creatures
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [R] Goblin King


// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

The Professor
10-19-2009, 11:53 PM
More support for Instigator here:

Ridiculous with Goblin Matron (yes, you can search after the first hit and drop whatever you want)

Ridiculous with Goblin Ringleader [edited] (yes, you can draw your four cards and drop what you want)

Ridiculous with Stingscourger (especially with a Matron or Recruiter or Seige-Commander on board already)

Ridiculous with Chieftain (yes, his second hit will be for 2, making it three damage total with no additional buffs)


I don't see what the debate is (if there is one) if you're running mono-Red/Vial. He's incredible.

Gibsonmac
10-20-2009, 12:00 AM
More support for Instigator here:

Ridiculous with Goblin Recruiter (yes, you can draw your four cards and drop what you want)
.

I think you mean Ringleader

The Professor
10-20-2009, 12:01 AM
Yessir I do (taking a break from paper-grading. Forgive me, as my mind is mush).

Question: Can you activate Kiki-Jiki between the First Strike dmg and the final hit?

Scenario:

Swing, hit via first strike:

Drop Kiki-Jiki, activate Kiki-Jiki to mirror a Goblin Chieftain

Next and final hit is amped?


Does that scenario work?



Also, I forgot to mention that Instigator is ridiculous with Goblin Pyromancer, especially with the "damage on the stack" thing gone. If Instigator lands, Pyromancer IS going to drop, boosting your Gobs before a response is available and the non-first strike damage (now amped with Pyromancer) is done. Hot.

Humphrey
10-20-2009, 12:31 AM
I like instigators, but i want something other to cheat in besides lackeys and instigators...

yes u can use effects between fs and normal dmg
i often went fs: drop kiki copy matron dmg: siegegang or chieftain

JMJ430
10-20-2009, 11:18 AM
Using the Instigator to first strike in a pyromancer was something i was messing around with for a while. the only problem i found is that youll only want one in a deck and so if you matron for it or get it off of a ringleader your opponent knows what might be coming. While running the pyromancer i did find that dropping a MWM or two the same turn as the pyromancer would leave you a couple blockers which is nice if they manage to live through that turn.

alfthefurryalien
10-20-2009, 01:18 PM
More support for Instigator here:

Ridiculous with Stingscourger (especially with a Matron or Recruiter or Seige-Commander on board already)

.

why would dropping a Stingscourger benefit you? you cant bounce your own goblins

quicksilver
10-20-2009, 01:36 PM
why would dropping a Stingscourger benefit you? you cant bounce your own goblins

To remove a blocker for your warren instigator.

alfthefurryalien
10-20-2009, 03:46 PM
you cant drop him in with instigator if you need him to remove a blocker. yes he is good at removing blockers but idk if thats what Professor was saying

GGoober
10-20-2009, 04:43 PM
I've tested 2-4 Instigators and found that I liked 3 Instigators. 4 was way too much drawing into just lackeys/instigators and no matron/ringleaders. Instigators is great but not when your hand has only lackeys and incinerators.

I'm going down to 2 in the Rb build and having 6 Lackeys, 4 Vials seem strong. In my opinion, Chieftain is the real deal. He pushes extra 3-4 damage everyturn and makes your creatures survive Dark Confidant, Mongeese blocks. I'm testing 2 Instigators 3 Chieftains in my build, but I may up the Chieftains to 4 instead. RR is a big problem for BR builds but the Mad Auntie isn't as crazy as Chieftain, so I need to see how I can work the right numbers out.

After testing monored goblins, I realized that the deck is by far the most consistent fastest deck, but it utterly loses to combo even with its speed. I'm a fan of Rb since Squad plays a huge role, not just against combo, but against Landstill and Goyfs, where you can remove their wraths and other 3 Goyfs. Squad beats Goyf's ass all day as well.

Tacosnape
10-20-2009, 06:47 PM
While I also like Chieftain, why exactly is your opponent blocking and trading a Dark Confidant for a Goblin ever a thing you would want to fix?

sligh16
10-21-2009, 01:06 PM
@FoulQ: What about replacing 2 Ports with 2 Mutavaults? They are also useful in the lategame if you have a chieftain or a pile in play (now that you run 2 chieftains).

Joe_C
10-21-2009, 01:27 PM
@FoulQ: What about replacing 2 Ports with 2 Mutavaults? They are also useful in the lategame if you have a chieftain or a pile in play (now that you run 2 chieftains).

I cant answer specifically for FOULQ but ports are REALLY still good. There are matchups where the mana denial will just win you the game. Here is my current list:

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piler driver

SB:
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

FoulQ
10-21-2009, 04:08 PM
@FoulQ: What about replacing 2 Ports with 2 Mutavaults? They are also useful in the lategame if you have a chieftain or a pile in play (now that you run 2 chieftains).

I honestly haven't tested them in my new build with instigator and chieftain. I think you have a good idea, perhaps. I do very much like the way port can up our percentages against control decks as only a land card and not a goblin taking up valuable deck space, so my initial feelings are not likely. I also like the idea of wasteland 5-6, because if we can draw 2-3 of our 5-6 "wastelands" then we can really get another dimension to our attack plan for that game. Mutavault serves an entirely different role, so I'm not so sure. The matchups I primarily care about our merfolk, zoo, counterbalance, and loam...I really get worried of him dying against zoo which could screw up our mana, against merfolk he seems meh against their bigger mutavaults and faster clock, and against counterbalance and loam... I think rishadan port is a more effective way to hurt them. Mutavault provides speed, but goblins doesn't need speed against merfolk/zoo and my personal playstyle doesn't really match the speed approach against a lot of control decks (for example, racing devastating dreams vs. loam), because I feel those decks are made to properly stop aggro rushes but aren't as prepared to handle a consistent stream of guys that only a goblin deck can produce. But enough talking, more testing.

arebennian
10-22-2009, 08:00 AM
Hello, just a quick question about mana bases in the splash versions......

Most look something like this:


// Lands
6 [BD] Mountain (2)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [6E] Swamp (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [REW] Wasteland
3 [b] Badlands


Are fetches less vulnerable than Non-Basics?
I undertand that a Wasteland lock can really hurt you if you are unable to look for basics, and staring down an active Wasteland isn't fun as you put your non-basic land on the table, but I would have thought hate for fetches was more prevalent than that which primarily targets non-basic lands.

Non-basic hate hurts, but alot of the specific hurt isn't played by many decks or hurts fetches to some degree too. Off the top of my head:
Moon effects
Back to basics
Price of Progress
Are the most popular, and none of those are played in the most popular decks (eshewing D. Stompy and Burn).

Wouldn't running 4 Duels and 4 of the 'crap' Lorwyn duels, with perhaps 1-2 fetches be a possibility?
Or am I overlooking something?

1maarten1
10-22-2009, 08:31 AM
Im testing the following atm:

4#Goblin Ringleader
2#Siege-Gang Commander
3#Stingscourger
4#Goblin Chieftain
3#Warren Instigator
4#Æther Vial
18#Mountain
4#Wasteland
3#Goblin Piledriver
4#Goblin Lackey
4#Goblin Warchief
4#Goblin Matron
3#Gempalm Incinerator
// sideboard
1#Goblin Sharpshooter
4#Pyrokinesis
4#Relic of Progenitus
3#Anarchy
1#Goblin Tinkerer
2#Boartusk Liege

I tried 4 WI's for a while, but i just wanted 1 extra piledriver. Also: I have a question: 22 Land... isnt it too much? I havent too much problems with it, but with addition of WI, you dont want to get too much lands drawn. Some of my friend told me to go play 4 lightning bolts, opions on this?? I might test the following: -3 mountains, -1 ringleader(not sure bout this 1) , + 4 lightning bolt. Or would i be more likely to not play instigators, and play lightning bolts and keep the manabuilt like this?

~Maarten

Joe_C
10-22-2009, 08:43 AM
I would never go below 22 land. I actually bumped my count back up to 23. Since the deck doesnt have any draw source outside of cycling a gempalm (which I have dont just to draw a card before when Im hunting for a land or something), you need to make your first 3 land drops for sure. Also, our best goblins cost 3-5 mana. So you need to get there quick if you arent able to vial/instigator/lackey them into play. I wouldnt drop the 4th ringleader, they got increasingly better with instigator, as well did matron. I have settled with piledriver as a 2 of. Sure he is good, but he needs 2 other goblins in play to be a real beast and he is the best when he is hasted.

Avatara
10-23-2009, 10:33 AM
I'm playing at a tournament this Sunday. I expect a lot of:

Merfolk(Jitte), Zoo(Jitte), Eva-green (Plague&Jitte), Thresh(Firespout) and some combo decks. There will also be a small amount of random decks like Elf and Burn/Sligh.

Would the following sideboard be a good choice?

4 x Relic of Progenitus
4 x Challice of the Void
2 x Pyrokenesis
2 x Boartusk Liege
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Goblin Tinkerer

Humphrey
10-23-2009, 10:52 AM
Id maybe replace pyrokinesis with perish if u run a black splash

Media314r8
10-23-2009, 01:27 PM
I'm playing at a tournament this Sunday. I expect a lot of:

Merfolk(Jitte), Zoo(Jitte), Eva-green (Plague&Jitte), Thresh(Firespout) and some combo decks. There will also be a small amount of random decks like Elf and Burn/Sligh.

Sounds like a decent meta to audible to doomsday combo with 6+ chant/silence main.

Jitte won't help much against many of those MUs aside from possibly killing other jittes. I would add additional stingscourgers and incinerators (if you're not maxed out) to augment pyrokenesis in dealing with little guys early game should you fear jitte. Mogg war marshal can get you into the late game against thresh and zoo, he may be worth including over 'gators as so mnay of those decks run an abundance of 1 and 2 drops and/or removal to keep gator from connecting. I'd only run chalice if you think there will be a lot of burn or slow in addition to ANT/Doomsday combo, as even with 4 chalices games 2 and 3, goblins still has an unfavorable MU vs combo, I usually go with the 'glass cannon' strategdy, as even 8 SB slots wot give you a good MUso I just pack that with cards to help my other MUs, and hope that the thresh and merfolk decks will beat the combo decks out of the top8, where i will then thoughoughly bash said blue aggro-control decks.

FoulQ
10-23-2009, 01:51 PM
I pretty much agree with Media. Instigator isn't going to be super strong in that metagame. Chalice of the Void seems pretty pointless in your sideboard unless you have combo, burn, zoo, AND tempo thresh, if you don't have just a crazy amount of decks relying on 1cc or 0cc it doesn't seem worth the spots for me in today's metagame where the combo matchup is very bad for goblins. I'm assuming you are playing mono red, if you expect half the metagame to be playing firespout or plague, I'd probably go up to 3 boartusks. But I don't really like him all that much, it also depends on the manabase you are running. Make sure you are running at least 3 md stingscourgers in that metagame, as he rocks house against merfolk and zoo, and probably eva green to some extent but I haven't really tested that matchup.

Forbiddian
10-23-2009, 03:00 PM
Few questions/thoughts:

1) What's the deal with Boartusk Liege in the board? I know about eplague, but are four Chieftains not enough? Liege seems like a massive step down in quality.

2) How often do you pay the echo on Stingscourger?

3) On the previous page, FoulQ commented that he could always get to RR with 17 mountains, but I'll just point out the obvious: 18 red sources when exposing non-basics is less likely to get RR consistently than 17 mountains.

4) People are cutting Piledrivers from their builds. I've always thought he was godly, but maybe the deck is going that way. Anyway to my point: without Warren Weirding, fewer Piledrivers, and more lackey effects, I wonder if Warchief is still better than Chieftain.

It seems pretty common to see 2 Chieftains (Chief) and 4 Warchiefs (CT), but: Chief is much, much better with Instigator (for one, he lets Instigator hit for 4. Also if Instigator connects, the reduced mana cost from Warchief isn't as important, and Chief can't reduce the cost of Instigator anyway), and arguably with SGC. Chief functions in Piledriver's role to end the game, but does it better than Piledriver because he can't get one-chumped. Chief naturally dodges the hate of Eplague.

I don't play Goblins a whole lot, but in the few games I played, I was almost always happier to see Chief than WC.

FoulQ
10-23-2009, 04:19 PM
1) Boartusk Liege is also pretty legit against firespout and pyroclasm, as well as against plague. He is all-around okay creature to have around if you have dead cards in your deck (for instance, stingscourger in the landstill matchup). I personally don't think he is that wonderful, I'm just playing 4 chieftains in my 75 and that works just fine for me, as I don't see plague that often. But I can understand a metagame with lots of plague and lots of firespout/clasm where he would be stronger.

2) Personally not that often. Usually only when I am in an offensive position, have no real threats in hand, and am desperate for some attackers to kill my opponent as quickly as possible to give him less time to draw answers. Other times are when I'm in a desperate position to have a blocker for next turn, but I often block with stingscourger the previous turn and he isn't around to pay echo anyways (for example, low on life against zoo, bounce a thoctar and then block a nacatl is often a great play if your life total is getting dangerously low). It basically comes down to knowing your decklist really well here and estimating how likely you are to draw a card more worthwhile for the 3R cost. This requires a little bit of math and a very intimate knowledge of your decklist though.

3) What? I assume you are saying RR is easier to get with 18 mountains than 17 mountains rather than what you did say. There have been a few times that I have gotten screwed by 17, but I think those very few times are worth the extra power that port brings in so many games. Those times are very few and far between. I am currently playing 4 instigators, 4 chieftains, and 4 warchief within my 75 cards, and even now it doesn't seem to be much of a problem thanks to the resiliency of the manabase.

4) This is a really hotly contested point and I don't think either side really has long enough playtime with chieftain and instigator to really comment on it very confidently. Here is what I said not that long ago and stick by it, for now:


Goblin Chieftain is great and all. He won me games, plain and simple, but as a 4-of that is very demanding on deck space. I have said it once and I'll say it again: I don't think we should be focusing on efficient P/T because we are already so outclassed by other decks. Merfolk has 12 lords. Control decks have a 4/5 for 1G. Zoo has a 3/3 for a G. And so forth. I think he is a good late game card though, so 1-2 and maybe 3 I think is the best way to devote to your maindeck. I also think he gets significantly worse when people are playing 1 siege gang commander.

Instead of the actual creatures, I think we should focus more on the enormous tempo we can muster from not only individual cards like vial, warchief, and stingscourger, but the insane tempo boost that they give us all together as a sort of engine. I definitely advocate for 5+ haste effects in the deck, but we are starting to get dangerously close to pulling the whole machine apart already. Piledriver was never really part of the engine so much as a way to finish off our opponent's quickly before they had time to draw answers to our machine. Chieftain is great sometimes for me, simply a game winner, and other times he is meh. I am currently testing boarding in 2 making it 4 md against merfolk. It has been spectacular sometimes but not helpful at all other times. Chieftain will allow for explosiveness at the sake of consistency, as goblin warchief is great by himself (allowing his friends to come and play much easier, and play with haste), while chieftain is the best when you get SGC or a similar amount of guys in play. And I feel the strength of goblins is in the fact that it is a consistent aggro deck which is very hard to find in any format, unlike a deck like zoo, which often has to rely on the top of the deck in order to seal the win.

I agree with you that Chieftain fills the same design space as piledriver in finishing the game as quickly as possible once you have established a dominant board position, which is why I don't advocate playing too many of those types of cards. There are still a lot of people out there that play 4 chieftains though, and they obviously have a large backing, and I would really like to hear their thoughts on all of this, but I feel that we need to look at the focus of goblins again before adding cards that seem busted when we draw them.

Gibsonmac
10-23-2009, 05:00 PM
agreed, I don't think an ideal post-zendikar build exists yet (if there even is one), I think more testing and tourney results need to be made, and I think the mix of chieftain/warchief/piledriver/SGC largely depends on area meta's, I've tested 4/4/4/2 with 4 instigators, I like it, but i'm not dead set on that spread... I could see 3/3 warchief/chieftain split, 3 sgc.. infinite possibilities are viable on paper at this point really.

Mono red no fetch's is the way to go imo.

Forbiddian
10-23-2009, 09:00 PM
Incidentally, I did mean that it's easier to get RR with 17 basic mountains than it is to get to RR with 18 red sources (of which prolly 5 or 6 are mountains, 7-8 are fetchlands, and 5 are nonbasics).

BKclassic
10-23-2009, 09:55 PM
19 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lacky
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-gang Commander

3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

SB-
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Vandal
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus (or whatever)

This is my vision for the future of goblins. I cut the Piledrivers for War Marshals because it buys time against Aggro to get to the mid game and gives you something to do after being Wrathed (or Clasmed or Spouted).

Goblin Chieftain is also the natural choice over Goblin Warchief with 4 Instigators and 4 War Marshalls. Also, 4 Chieftain also seems pretty obvious when you consider how much of a problem Engineered Plague is, I don't why I didn't switch out the Warchiefs quicker.

Stingscourger also buys time against aggro and clears the way for 8 Lackey effects.

This version can be less explosive than more traditional versions of the deck, but 8 Lackey effect help fill the void and Stingscourger and War Marhsal help you get to the midgame.

Hanni
10-23-2009, 11:59 PM
R/b Vial Goblins

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Badlands
4 [RAV] Mountain (2)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
4 [AT] Goblin Matron
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 4 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

That's what I'm working with right now.

I have a few things that I'm trying to figure out.

First of all, what is the right combination of Weirding/Gempalm/Stingscourger. For those that have tested more than myself, what have you found? Also, is 8 removal overkill?

With Instigator, should I be running more than 1 SGC?

I feel that with 4 Vial, 4 Lackey, and 2 Instigator... 22 lands should be the right amount. Am I right or wrong in that line of thinking?

Would more Instigator's be better? I feel like 2 is the perfect amount right now. Would more Chieftan's be better? I feel like 2 is the perfect amount right now.

I really like the singleton Wort, which basically acts like Ringleader #5.

Should I be running Earwig Squads in the sideboard instead of Chalice (Chalice is there for combo)?

Opinions appreciated.

Tacosnape
10-24-2009, 12:18 AM
I pretty much like every aspect of BKClassic's list except for the lack of Warchiefs. I feel like Warchief still does too much (Enable ridiculous chains of Goblins for minimal mana, enable turn 4 Siege-Gangs, acting as haste-all 5-8, etc.) I don't really know where to put them, though.

Mogg War Marshal has really outshined Piledriver in most situations (The exceptions being against blue and against decks where I need to deal as much damage as fast as possible.)

Gibsonmac
10-24-2009, 03:55 AM
R/b Vial Goblins


That's what I'm working with right now.

I have a few things that I'm trying to figure out.

First of all, what is the right combination of Weirding/Gempalm/Stingscourger. For those that have tested more than myself, what have you found? Also, is 8 removal overkill?

With Instigator, should I be running more than 1 SGC?

I feel that with 4 Vial, 4 Lackey, and 2 Instigator... 22 lands should be the right amount. Am I right or wrong in that line of thinking?

Would more Instigator's be better? I feel like 2 is the perfect amount right now. Would more Chieftan's be better? I feel like 2 is the perfect amount right now.

I really like the singleton Wort, which basically acts like Ringleader #5.

Should I be running Earwig Squads in the sideboard instead of Chalice (Chalice is there for combo)?

Opinions appreciated.

-Mono red 3 stingers 3 incinerators, 5-6 is generally best for removal

-you should most definitely be running more than 1 SGC, at 2 minimum, FoulQ hits 3 these days I hear

-in mono red 21 is perfect, also prolly wanna try 3 instigators bro, or even 4... it gets stupidly silly in a hurry, And I really like 4 chieftain main, but there is a lot of wiggle room on the splits of your dude's, and chalice kinda blows in the board, thorn would be better and have more applications.

All I can say is to go play-test against a couple dudes, bring a few decks, and all your gobo shit and hammer it out man.

I think running 8 lackey's warrants 2-3 SGC, 8 haste lords (7 minimum). 3-4 sting-scourger (make sure lackey's connect) 2-3 incinerators (5-7 removal in all), 4 matron, 4 ringleader, 3-4 piledriver, and 4 vial with 17 mtns and 4 wastes, is a pretty good skeleton, I've had great results and its fun to play.

I really don't think there is any reason not to run Mono-red, splashes just add inconsistency

Space Ghost
10-24-2009, 04:51 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again. Warchief is prolly the best Goblin EVER. Anybody not playing 4 needs to ask their special ed teacher what's up. Think about it... Piledriver for R, Ringleader for 2R, Matron for Piledriver for 1R R, with haste? C'mon why are people even considering running less than 4. Are you serious?! Chieftain is nice, I'm running 3 MD I think. But Warchief is what makes this deck nuts.

Joe_C
10-24-2009, 08:13 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again. Warchief is prolly the best Goblin EVER. Anybody not playing 4 needs to ask their special ed teacher what's up. Think about it... Piledriver for R, Ringleader for 2R, Matron for Piledriver for 1R R, with haste? C'mon why are people even considering running less than 4. Are you serious?! Chieftain is nice, I'm running 3 MD I think. But Warchief is what makes this deck nuts.

Ineed, the - to the cost of your goblins makes them worth running 4. I run 4/3 warchief/chieftain split and would rather drop tp 2 chieftain than drop to 3 warchief anyday.

Instigator has been my spot of contetion, Right now I run 3, but in some situations it feels like too many... This deck worked fine with only 4 lackey effects for years, adding way too many just means some 1/1's that can bring goblins into play but if your hand is all land or other weakass goblins, it isnt worth the space.. I may drop the instigator count back to 2 to make my scg count 3 again. Even with only 6 lackey effects, he is really really amazing

arebennian
10-24-2009, 09:05 AM
I hate to ask again but could someone cle me into my earlier question about the fetchlands?

Humphrey
10-24-2009, 09:30 AM
Fetches are less vulnerable since a lot more decks run wateland than stifle

ScatmanX
10-24-2009, 09:48 AM
Fetches are less vulnerable since a lot more decks run wateland than stifle

True. And the life loss from fetches can be a pain.
If you are monoR, go with no fetches.

arebennian
10-24-2009, 10:45 AM
Fetches are less vulnerable since a lot more decks run wateland than stifle

Sure, consider this senario though:
No wasteland on the table but you know your opponent is playing then within his deck.

Do you search for a Swamp in the first three turns knowing that you need RR for many goblins and B for important removal (and perhaps the odd goblin)?.

I just imagine that, often enough, you would need one of your lands to tap for Black and Red early in the game, thus you would search for a dual and be just as opened to Wasteland.
There is also a decent chance that you will draw a dual or non-basic anyway and be just as vulnerable to Wasteland.
In this case you would have been better off drawing the dual than the fetch.

Perhaps I am just underestimating the ability the fetches give you to play around Wasteland...

Humphrey
10-24-2009, 11:06 AM
Depending on the boardsituation and handcards u decide.
If its not necessary to have B asap, u fetch for the Mountain. Otherwise the dual.
If u had enough mountains already, u would fetch the swamp ofc.

arebennian
10-24-2009, 11:12 AM
Depending on the boardsituation and handcards u decide.
If its not necessary to have B asap, u fetch for the Mountain. Otherwise the dual.
If u had enough mountains already, u would fetch the swamp ofc.

Yeah, that is obvious.
But how often do you curse yourself for having a Swamp, Wasteland and Mountain of your own when you are holding a hand of 1RR drops?

It is obvious that Fetches are strong; they are the most played card in Legacy if you consider their cycle as a single card. I'm not here to try and re-write how people should build their mana bases.
I'm just suprised that it is mainly for Wasteland insurance when you often(?) are in a position where you can't play around it anyway.

Humphrey
10-24-2009, 11:15 AM
mainly its for manafixing (at least in the 3C decks)
goblin is a bit special, since the lorwyn dual has no drawback (very small one
but fetches are thinning library (ringleader, gas), also giving you small wasteland protection. but sometimes it can be useful to let ur opp waste u, cuz u run more manadenial (ports) and dont need much mana (lackeys, vial)

Gibsonmac
10-24-2009, 12:00 PM
mainly its for manafixing (at least in the 3C decks)
goblin is a bit special, since the lorwyn dual has no drawback (very small one
but fetches are thinning library (ringleader, gas), also giving you small wasteland protection. but sometimes it can be useful to let ur opp waste u, cuz u run more manadenial (ports) and dont need much mana (lackeys, vial)

I'm not trying to argue here, but tempo thresh is probably on of the most popular decks in the format right now, lots of stifle's in countertop,thresh,dreadstill,fish,etc.

and all those decks play wasteland, thats why mono red is the way to go, what do you gain by splashing? green gets grip and hooligan, white gets swords/path, black gets mad auntie and wierding, all good cards, but are they necessary? I think not so much.

I think, in the present environment, mono red gobs is the way to go. fetchies are nice to thin the deck, but are a stifle waiting to happen, getting a basic for your splash and you may have just lost the game by not being able to find :r: :r: . not to mention opposing wastelands can be game over, in any event, LD can wreck this deck. But the good news is that it's entirely preventable!! I just do not think splash is necessary anymore, tinkerer can take care of artifacts, stinger can take care of the fatties/remove blockers so you can swing with the team, incinerator is still great removal (not against a dreadnought, but thats what stingers for)..

Thoughts?

BKclassic
10-24-2009, 01:28 PM
Ineed, the - to the cost of your goblins makes them worth running 4. I run 4/3 warchief/chieftain split and would rather drop tp 2 chieftain than drop to 3 warchief anyday.

Instigator has been my spot of contetion, Right now I run 3, but in some situations it feels like too many... This deck worked fine with only 4 lackey effects for years, adding way too many just means some 1/1's that can bring goblins into play but if your hand is all land or other weakass goblins, it isnt worth the space.. I may drop the instigator count back to 2 to make my scg count 3 again. Even with only 6 lackey effects, he is really really amazing

The thing about my list is that you have to think about it a bit differently than a traditional Goblins list. In past goblin decks, Warchief is definitely the better call and just subbing them for Chieftain would be silly. But what I have presented isn't just the old-style list with Cheiftains in the place of Warchiefs and War Marshals in the place of Piledrivers (and Instigators worked in), but is, instead, built around Warren Instigator. If you except that Warren Instigator is good enough to build the deck around, than Goblin Chieftain quickly becomes more desirable than the Warchief (+1/+1 combos with double strike, more goblins will be coming into play for free, so cost reduction is a less necessary, a worthy trade for some plague resistantsyk). Once you except that, War Marshal becomes better than Piledriver (War Marshal is helps beat Zoo/aggro and control, we weren't beating combo too much anyway). 3 Siege-gang Commanders becomes obvious and the running 23 lands is pretty necessary without the cost reduction of Warchief.

With that said, Warchief doesn't necessarily not belong in my list. You could definitely squeeze in 4 by cutting a War Marshal, 2 Instigators and a Stingscourger, but I think this is kind of questionable. With those changes, you might just want to squeeze some Piledrivers and than you are pretty back to the old style list and 4 Chieftain seems less optimal.

At any rate, have some faith in the list. Swinging in with Mogg War Marshall, a goblin token, Goblin Chieftain and Warren Instigator is more damage (if unblocked) than swinging with Warchief, Matron and Piledriver. It has the mid game oomph of a traditional goblins deck as well as a better aggro match up.

Humphrey
10-24-2009, 01:59 PM
Meta choice id say. As u can read in the tournament reports, Rb still does well atm.
Id prefer B splash atm, cuz of the better sb options with squad. also weirding is getting better against reanimator and nought

Gibsonmac
10-24-2009, 02:50 PM
agreed, meta is a huge part. And, as i understand, the European legacy seen is quite different than it is stateside... here we have tons of tempo thresh etc. etc. so at least in my area mono red seems to have a better chance, but yeah, it's all a meta call

Avatara
10-25-2009, 02:05 AM
I'm going to the tournament in one hour. I'm running FoulQ's build. Only change I made is: -1 Siege-Gang Commander + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. The guy has been totally nuts in the last three days of play testing.

My sideboard is:

1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Goblin Chieftain (might borrow 1 x Boartusk Liege)
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Mogg War Marshal

The sideboard should be able to cover a lot of decks. I'll try to write a report later today.

DomoKun
10-25-2009, 01:06 PM
Hi all,

I have posted a report on my tourney today.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=394805#post394805
hope to hear some advice, thanks

Gibsonmac
10-25-2009, 01:28 PM
I would cut bolts, the king, and prolly kiki, for instigator's (there is no reason not to play it) more stingscourger, and incinerator.

DomoKun
10-25-2009, 01:36 PM
I probably cut the piledriver for Warren instigator. As for bolts, this is my personal preference over gempalm.

I want to play WI, but they have no arrived yet, sad.

ScatmanX
10-25-2009, 03:34 PM
I'm using bolts too. Keep em if you like them.
List is nice. Congrats on finish.
You don't like Pyroknesis against dredge? I think is really good at killing they're guyas, as your onws also.

and 4 Warchiefs and 3 Chieftain, if nothing else is changed, should be the way to go. Reduced cost > +1/+1, imo.

Illissius
10-25-2009, 04:32 PM
I assume using some Chrome Moxen to accelerate Instigators is a notion so ridiculous that anyone who's thought of it has dismissed it immediately without posting?

ScatmanX
10-25-2009, 04:35 PM
I assume using some Chrome Moxen to accelerate Instigators is a notion so ridiculous that anyone who's thought of it has dismissed it immediately without posting?

Yes.
I have used, and met people that have used.
None liked it.
If you play Food Chain Goblins, it's a different story though.

DomoKun
10-26-2009, 12:00 AM
Thanks ScatmanX. I will try pyrokinesis next time.

I probably play 4 chieftain/4 warchief after i got my WI.
But my hands against the dredge was bad, the first dredge he went off, revealed 2 bridge, one narcomeba, 2 cabal therapy. He named pithing needle and mogg fanatic.

After this tourney, I found out that piledriver is not as good for the those matchup i came across. However, I'm not sure whether boarding out piledriver against dredge will be a good choice.

1maarten1
10-26-2009, 05:56 AM
Maybe im the only one with this problem, but after a lot of testing i dont think i like WI that much. I mean he gets effective by turn 3, which is IMO a little late. I find WI too slow, doublestrike is nice but I think everyone wants a piledriver in its place when it comes to attacking..?

Opions on this?

~Maarten

P.s. I also run 4 bolt, and they are awesome :smile:

Waikiki
10-26-2009, 06:40 AM
I find him very strong after your T1 lackey gets whacked or Fowed since they have to answer an even stronger one after that. Also it makes goyfs not hit you.

Gibsonmac
10-26-2009, 10:56 AM
Maybe im the only one with this problem, but after a lot of testing i dont think i like WI that much. I mean he gets effective by turn 3, which is IMO a little late. I find WI too slow, doublestrike is nice but I think everyone wants a piledriver in its place when it comes to attacking..?

Opions on this?

~Maarten

P.s. I also run 4 bolt, and they are awesome :smile:


Warren Instigator is the Bomb-Diggity Bro, no joke... He's the shit, what's your list like? sometimes he does like to be accommodated for and not just shoved in..

anyway, post your list and we'll have a looksy

4 bolt with 8 lackey effects is probably not the best way to go about it, (lots of goblins is key!!)

1maarten1
10-26-2009, 11:25 AM
This is my current list:
4#Goblin Ringleader
2#Siege-Gang Commander
3#Stingscourger
4#Goblin Chieftain
4#Lightning bolt
4#Æther Vial
17#Mountain
4#Wasteland
3#Goblin Piledriver
4#Goblin Lackey
4#Goblin Warchief
4#Goblin Matron
3#Gempalm Incinerator
// sideboard
1#Goblin Sharpshooter
4#Pyrokinesis
4#Relic of Progenitus
2#Anarchy
1#Goblin Tinkerer
2#Boartusk Liege
1#Gaea’s Blessing

I have tested with -4 bolt, +1 mountain +3 WI, but for reasons stated earlier i cut em out again. Also some of you play 22-23 lands, and i just find that too much. And when you start playing WI on top of that, you dont want to be hitting that much lands.

So bombs away on your comments :tongue:

~maarten

Waikiki
10-26-2009, 11:45 AM
I run 23 (4 fetch ) myself and would not go below! You really need your mana. Also I only run 2 instigators btw.

Gibsonmac
10-26-2009, 11:59 AM
stick with the 17/4 land base.. it has been solid for me.

may I suggest, -4 bolt, -1 stingscourger/incinerator(5 removal is solid), +4 warren instigator, +1 SGC...

my list is very similar, I've had great results, with all the lackey effects, you need to maximize the goblin count so you don't end up with dead hands, and you really power out a swarm quickly, its puts down lots of pressure

1maarten1
10-26-2009, 01:25 PM
I go back to testing with the following list: -4 bolt, + 3 WI + 1 Kikki. Why kikki? i think he has reborn now that we have the addition of WI, you should give him a chance again :laugh: And i find the 17-4 manabase very solid also, i dont really find the need to go higher or lower. 6 removal has been very good for me so i wont be cutting on that :smile:

I'll post later how it goes ;).

~Maarten

FoulQ
10-26-2009, 01:39 PM
Hello everyone, I'm wondering how you all board against Countertop and Dredge. I am having a hard time deciding what to board against standard UGBW countertop lists (nassif top list).

Potential side-ins in my SB for the countertop matchup are the last 2 chieftains, the 4th instigator, and 3 pithing needle. The only thing I feel certain about boarding out in this matchup is the 3rd SGC, because I need to make space so I have to go down to 2 SGC unfortunately.

When I was testing the merfolk matchup I experimented with boarding out a warchief for a chieftain and that was okay, but that is a whole different ball game. I'm also wondering how effective you guys think chieftain is against merfolk (it would seem obvious that a guy dealing with P/T will be good in the aggro mirror, but I'm not so sure...).

And for dredge, I'm sure people have set boarding plans but I've never really worried about the deck. I'm not sure how often they board out the LED combo, but if they keep it in, I'm thinking about siding out aether vial, because of speed concerns. It depends on if I feel my 7-8 lackeys will connect, and I feel they have a pretty good chance in that matchup when gempalm will easily kill all their early blockers, EXCEPT for that wicked tireless tribe. Not sure how to board against this deck either: Either go for all-out in lackeys (and leave in all 3 SGCs, Matrons, Ringleaders, etc), or a more conservative approach.

Gibsonmac
10-26-2009, 02:06 PM
Countertop: in Needle, 4 chieftains, 8 lackey, out SGC, Piledriver(depends how many you run) Warchief (depends how many you run/how many Chieftain), stingscourger sometimes, depends on the build.

Dredge: in relic/crypt, 8 lackey etc. out port(i side out land sometimes to hope for a few in the opener and leads to more explosive draws) go for explosiveness, you gotta try to race, get creatures in your yard/crypt/relic the yard away.

Forbiddian
10-26-2009, 02:29 PM
Is Kiki actually good, or mainly a win more?

If you resolve something Kiki can abuse (e.g. Ringleader or SGC) and then resolve Kiki, wouldn't you 1) Be able to win with that or 2) be in a lost position most of the time.

I can see him being really good with just a Matron or in a stalled game (like with Vial on 5, you Matron for Kiki, then Kiki Matron to find a SGC and start dropping those every turn), but in the situations where he "really shines" like copying SGCs or Ringleaders, I see myself as rather just having the SGC.

Maybe he's strong as a 1-of as a Matron target primarily, but 3x SGC has proven to smooth the deck out a lot. With 7-8 Lackey effects, there's just too big of a chance that you run out of gas with only two SGCs.

I think I'll squeeze in Kiki, but it'll be at the expense of something other than SGC.

Humphrey
10-26-2009, 02:43 PM
Im toying around with some monored build, too
here is what it looks like

// Lands
4 [MOR] Mutavault
17 [CST] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus


As u can see, i run a straight forward aggro-plan. I cut all utility creatures along with matron. Matron is really to slow in this build. Also i run Mutavaults over Wasteland to get even more dmg to Opp Head. Runs really smooth so far.

Gibsonmac
10-26-2009, 03:06 PM
no matron scares me, I've never seen a reason to run less than 4... looks strong otherwise, my take would be -1 piledriver, -3 removal utility, +4 matron...

posts testing results, looks solid, maybe matron isn't necessary anymore?

FoulQ
10-26-2009, 04:14 PM
@ Gibsonmac: I'm a little wary of boarding out piledrivers against Nassiftop. That deck can sometimes have some strong hate cards against us (EPlague) that I want to end the game fairly quickly, which piledriver helps with. If we go along with the theory that chieftain does the same thing, then I can see where you are coming from. Is this your justification for boarding out piledrivers, because chieftain fulfills a similar role? I also am wary of boarding out warchiefs because he is warchief, but is the justification here that 8 haste effects is overkill, and that without a lot of piledrivers warchief becomes somewhat weaker? If so then maybe I'll test this out. I don't want to board out any more than 1 SGC if I am playing 8 lackeys, however: SGC is so so good against this deck (and the game often goes late), and I think mathematically the gain from dropping an SGC off a lackey is worth having him occasionally clog my hand (although that is much rarer with only 2).

Also, I'm boarding in pyrokinesis too against dredge, I think, so I will probably have to board out more than just what you suggested. I see in the ichorid thread they often board out LED, not sure if that is common practice or not because this deck isn't played too much here, so I don't know. This is a tough one for me to crack.

@ Humphrey: You are not playing goblins. The following 4 cards must be played in every goblin list to be considered goblins: matron, ringleader, vial, lackey. Debatably warchief, mountain, and wasteland. That is an entirely different deck, as you can no longer rely on the deck being classified as a "consistent aggro" deck, instead, a "fast aggro" deck, and there are a kajillion other decks in the format that do that much, much, better than goblins. With the prevalence of creature removal in the set, I think the build will do extremely poorly. To be honest, I wouldn't even bother testing that deck, if you want to play a fast aggro deck, play zoo.

Matron is probably the third best card in the deck behind aether vial and goblin ringleader. Mainly because matron fetches goblin ringleader most of the time :P

Please don't cut the deck's core engine.

@ Forbiddian: I completely agree. I think Kiki is a bad play. I wouldn't recommend going to 3 SGC and 1 Kiki however, as that is way big amount of 4 drops and will hurt the deck's consistency. I also don't like the argument that Kiki is better now because of instigator, because the deck's ultimate goal is not just to connect with lackeys. Otherwise we'd be seeing builds with 4 weirdings and 4 stingscourgers all around, but I've never really seen anyone do that successfully. It also disappoints me to see that you posted in the merfolk thread you think this is a bad deck. I would have to disagree with that assessment.

Gibsonmac
10-26-2009, 05:14 PM
@FoulQ: definitely keep at least 2 SGC in, I would probably play 7-8 haste chief's (Def 4 chieftain because the +1/+1), and I was thinking between 2-3 pile drivers. he does end the game fast, but I think maxing out the chief's is a better strategy, also pile driver is 2cc, an easy target for spell snare and counterbalance (all lists I've seen run the a lot of 2cc) where the chief's are a little safer at 3cc, that is mostly where I was coming from with dropping some piledrivers post board... I think the goal would be end the game as quickly as possible, the haste chief's fulfill that role pretty well.

Boarding out warchief was to make sure you get 4 chieftain (if space is needed) ideally run all 8, if not I'd run 3 warchief 4 chieftain

MEATROCKET
10-26-2009, 05:32 PM
I've liked all the absurd things Kiki + Lightning Crafter can do together. Getting both in play against zoo (an admittedly difficult task) usually seals the game, which I can't really say about any other two cards in the deck. I have both of them in a list with 3 SGC, because he is that good, but I have only 2 Piledrivers, 2 Stingscourgers, 3 WI, and 3 Chieftain.

I've like Kiki every time I've seen him, and he never felt win-more. I will cut him and Lightning Crafter, though, just to see if consistency improves (which would be amazing, because it's incredibly consistent as-is).

So I'm not completely sold on Kiki+Crafter, but I suggest you at least try them if you haven't.

Humphrey
10-26-2009, 06:29 PM
Matron is only good, after a sweeper in this build, because you play only 4of´s. And thats only if you overextended after a Ringleader.
I didnt miss it so far.
But I agree with Lackey, Vial, Ringleader as core

Forbiddian
10-26-2009, 06:36 PM
@ Forbiddian: I completely agree. I think Kiki is a bad play. I wouldn't recommend going to 3 SGC and 1 Kiki however, as that is way big amount of 4 drops and will hurt the deck's consistency. I also don't like the argument that Kiki is better now because of instigator, because the deck's ultimate goal is not just to connect with lackeys. Otherwise we'd be seeing builds with 4 weirdings and 4 stingscourgers all around, but I've never really seen anyone do that successfully. It also disappoints me to see that you posted in the merfolk thread you think this is a bad deck. I would have to disagree with that assessment.

Goblins has historically been the worst-performing deck to beat in terms of matchwin %. When I used to run a data mine, it was performing sub-.400 on average in top 8 play, compared to Dreadstill (at the time, the strongest deck, it was winning around 80% of its matches), and Threshold even was winning 60%.

I reran the data mine, and goblins has been performing extremely well recently, with nearly a 60% match win for the last 120 recorded matches! The changes that have happened to Goblins over the last three months have been huge improvements, so congrats to everyone here for making Goblins into a deck that can get to the top 8 and beat the top decks in the format.

And I definitely withdraw what I said about Goblins, it was based on obsolete data. I'll have to put my playtesting shoes back on and see how Goblin's matchups stand in light of new changes.

caenel
10-27-2009, 04:57 AM
I've been following the discussion on Goblins for some time now, and really wonder what's the conscensus about mono-red Goblins or Rx Goblins. As I see it, mono-red Goblins would be more aggressive (slightly) than the Rx Goblins versions. This is how I currently see it:

Mono-red Goblins:
- more aggressive than Rx builds (except maybe RG Goblins)
- less versatility than other builds (no artifact/enchantment control)
- more conditional creature control (Stingscourger only bounces and Gempalm has problems taking big hitters down solo)

RG Goblins:
- still very aggressive build
- has good artifact/enchantment control with K-grip/Hooligan
- same creature control as mono-red
- Ringleader becomes a little less usefull (as it can't hit K-grip)

RW Goblins:
- a little less aggressive with the W splash
- added benefit of good artifact/enchantment removal post board
- better creature removal with Swords
- Ringleader becomes a little less usefull (cannot hit Swords)

RB Goblins:
- seems almost as aggressive as normal mono-red Goblins
- shares the lack of artifact/enchantment removal
- good creature removal that is a Goblin card (Warren Weirding)
- great utility creature in the big 5/3 prowl hitter (name escapes me atm)
- can play recursion with Boggart Aunty

RU Goblins:
- loses a lot of aggressivenes
- gains a card draw, but Goblins don't need that (have Ringleader)


RU seems unplayable, RW seems sub-par with RG (for artifact/enchantment control) or RB (for creature control). This leaves the RG, RB or mono-red option open.
At the moment I am leaning towards the RB option, because of the extra creature removal and slightly better matchup against combo. I just need to figure out one thing: what do you guys do against Moat/Humility? These cards really seem to screw up the mono-R and RB matchup.

Alright, that's how I see it atm, comment on my flawed vision are greatly appreciated (as well as possible sideboards to use) :wink:

Humphrey
10-27-2009, 06:59 AM
If u read the last pages u had seen different decklists including sideboards. Also options for handling moat and humility are mentioned (Anarchy and Squad, also Crafter and SGC)

Gibsonmac
10-27-2009, 11:51 AM
Mono-red Goblins:
- more aggressive than Rx builds (except maybe RG Goblins)
- less versatility than other builds (no artifact/enchantment control)
:

Mono has goblin tinkerer for artifact removal... just as versatile as tin-street... mostly go mono for stability v. stifle/wasteland and improving consistency.... splashes are obsolete. look through the last few pages to see more on the topic

P.S.
10-28-2009, 12:25 AM
So what are you all bringing in and taking out for the Zoo match-up? Seems pretty bad to me after the last couple of days. :frown:

arebennian
10-28-2009, 12:48 AM
Search Eldariel's posts for his thoughts on the matchup.

Tacosnape
10-28-2009, 11:16 AM
Things that help against Zoo:

1. Mogg War Marshal
2. Swords to Plowshares
3. Not playing Goblins.

Seriously, though, the tempo here is everything. You can play a long game with Zoo if and only if they don't damage you too badly on your way there. A single War Marshal can act like a 9-15 point lifegain for 1R if it triple chumps while you stabilize and ramp up goblinage. There's absolutely no way for Zoo to prevent War Marshal from doing what you want it to do very effectively - buy time. If you don't maindeck War Marshals and you anticipate Zoo, they're seriously worth taking a look at for a sideboard option.

I've also found having a 1-drop removal spell helps tremendously. Swords is very multi-talented here. It clears their 1-drops (So Nacatl won't thwack you for four on turn two when Pridemage exalts him), clears their blockers, and clears them permanently, which is more than any other option of removal can guarantee.

Gibsonmac
10-28-2009, 12:40 PM
Things that help against Zoo:

1. Mogg War Marshal
2. Swords to Plowshares
3. Not playing Goblins.

Seriously, though, the tempo here is everything. You can play a long game with Zoo if and only if they don't damage you too badly on your way there. A single War Marshal can act like a 9-15 point lifegain for 1R if it triple chumps while you stabilize and ramp up goblinage. There's absolutely no way for Zoo to prevent War Marshal from doing what you want it to do very effectively - buy time. If you don't maindeck War Marshals and you anticipate Zoo, they're seriously worth taking a look at for a sideboard option.

I've also found having a 1-drop removal spell helps tremendously. Swords is very multi-talented here. It clears their 1-drops (So Nacatl won't thwack you for four on turn two when Pridemage exalts him), clears their blockers, and clears them permanently, which is more than any other option of removal can guarantee.

wouldn't PtE be better in the match up? or even lightning bolt to take out an early nacatl? then you can stay mono red

Illissius
10-28-2009, 12:44 PM
How about Goblin Burrows to go with Instigator?

Humphrey
10-28-2009, 12:48 PM
If it would produce R, sure. But as a 1of its to random and more u dont wanna run, cuz u need much RR

Gibsonmac
10-28-2009, 12:48 PM
How about Goblin Burrows to go with Instigator?

More colorless mana=bad news... maybe a 2x in place of port in a 17mtn 4waste 2port build (FoulQ's mana base for instance)

try it out... seems to be too mana intensive for it to be abused, could be wrong though, I've never tried it

neckfire
10-28-2009, 12:51 PM
is the benefit of playing mono red worth the loss of snuff out and some of the good goblins from shadowmoor and the rest?i do not play goblins but my friend swears by them so i do not know the benefits and risk i just watch him play alot.

Gibsonmac
10-28-2009, 01:00 PM
is the benefit of playing mono red worth the loss of snuff out and some of the good goblins from shadowmoor and the rest?i do not play goblins but my friend swears by them so i do not know the benefits and risk i just watch him play alot.

What good goblins? you don't need to splash black for snuff out, you just pay 4 life, there are better cards for the slots it takes up... mono red is better for stability and consistency especially against thresh/tempo decks

Humphrey
10-28-2009, 01:03 PM
What good goblins? you don't need to splash black for snuff out, you just pay 4 life, there are better cards for the slots it takes up... mono red is better for stability and consistency especially against thresh/tempo decks

u need a swamp to do so

but the only good B goblins are warren weirding and Earwig Squad. Both are good, but not absolutely neccessary

Tacosnape
10-28-2009, 02:00 PM
wouldn't PtE be better in the match up? or even lightning bolt to take out an early nacatl? then you can stay mono red

No and no.

Path on turn one gives them the ability to explode on turn two, often with a double threat. Giving them the 1-3 life early is better than giving them the free land.

Bolt is better on turn one, but Bolt won't kill midgame Tarmogoyf or Woolly Thoctar. Or anything else in any other matchup with toughness > 3. Nor will it randomly save your ass by gaining life off your own guys on occasions where you held out for board position but are in danger of dying to burn. Swords removes all but like three things in the entire format. Bolt doesn't, and the deck isn't aggressive enough or good enough at being aggressive to make the reach all that valuable.

P.S.
10-28-2009, 02:15 PM
I guess I'll try Mogg War Marshal in some Sideboard slots. Glacial Crevasses doesn't seem any good at all anymore anyway. :frown:

What about Umezawa's Jitte?

Also, what do you Sideboard out? Goblin Lackey seems really bad in the match-up but I can not really foresee ever wanting to Sideboard him out.

Tacosnape
10-28-2009, 02:56 PM
I guess I'll try Mogg War Marshal in some Sideboard slots. Glacial Crevasses doesn't seem any good at all anymore anyway. :frown:

What about Umezawa's Jitte?

Also, what do you Sideboard out? Goblin Lackey seems really bad in the match-up but I can not really foresee ever wanting to Sideboard him out.

Piledriver is what I've been siding out. He tends to be terrible on his own, doesn't help you stabilize much, and switching him for War Marshal doesn't switch your curve up much.

It probably depends on your maindeck build and theirs, though.

Jitte's probably weak against Zoo, but might be decent for the lifegain and growing effects (Plus to pick off any Lavamancers that come down post-Jitte.) If you run it in the board already, it might or might not be worth bringing in. I don't run it, so I can't say I've tried it.

FoulQ
10-28-2009, 04:06 PM
Here is my boarding plan against zoo,
-3 Piledriver, -3 Instigator
+3 Pyrokinesis, +2 Jitte, +1 Chieftain (3 md chieftain post sideboard)

I don't feel the 4th chieftain is really better than anything else in the maindeck, so I don't board it in. Piledriver is bad because zoo can often create scenarios where there are not many goblins in play, making piledriver worse. Though I might try keeping one in as a tutor target and not boarding in the 3rd chieftain. Instigator I feel isn't that strong in the aggro matchups, because his primary role is to force the control player to stay in that role and force an answer from them, whereas zoo can just walk right over him or use one of their plentiful 1cc removal spells on him.

This is still in the testing phases but it has been working pretty well for me. I don't recommend jitte for most metas, I just feel like I see a lot of them and I like not dying to opposing jittes when I play against merfolk.

It really helps to know whether or not your opponent boards in a clasm effect. Overextending against zoo is the easiest way to win, if you have a constant stream of ringleader/SGC blockers, especially in my build with 3 SGC. Game one I will overextend like crazy against them once I get matron + ringleader going and try to conserve my life total to never run below 8-10 or so (depending on how many cards they hold in hand). A lot of versions have been cutting fireblast which is helpful, as there have been countless times where I have stabilized at 6 or 7 life, and all they need is bolt + fireblast to kill me. ANYWAYS, back to the point, it is important to figure out if they are playing pyroclasm or a related effect in their sideboard. Most of the time I won't risk it unless I feel it is my only chance at winning. But I think game 1 can actually be in your favor if the zoo player doesn't know how to play the matchup. Things get worse games 2 and 3 I think, but the matchup isn't really that bad. I always refer people back to Eldariel's post a long time ago, as it provides the most insightful opinion on how to play against zoo.

Here is what I have written up in my notes about zoo:

"I'll be honest, I love this matchup because zoo players think it is a bye for some reason. The key to this matchup is aether vial. Get a vial and all the sudden the matchup becomes a lot more favorable, because it allows you to waste+port them while still building up an army. In addition, vial lets you speed out an army of guys much faster than normal lands can do. This is important since zoo can kill you pretty quickly. And all the other goodiness that vial brings with it, it is a really good card in the matchup.

Goblins has inevitability in this matchup for sure. This makes cards like stingscourger great, because it will return a goyf and block a nacatl or something, saving you 1.5 or so turns of damage. Don't chump block until you get to less than 10 life or so, because you need to build up your army, and many zoo players are rightfully afraid of sudden hasty goblins doing stuff with piledrivers. This makes some zoo players play their deck like it is rock or something, pinging away at the goblins player with their exalted nacatl. What they don't realize is that at a certain point goblins has no choice to block so they should just try to make it a damage race like most of their other matchups. You can prey on this inexperience often, as many zoo players have been told and trained to "bring in your 2-3 clasms and laugh" when there is much more to the matchup than that.

Pridemage is a bastard, but you can hopefully shut off one of those two colors if you have the vial in play that you are worried about getting nuked by pridemage. If Zoo keeps a land light hand and doesn't draw too many lands they are certainly not in a good position. The more lands Zoo plays the worse the matchup becomes for you. Likewise, the more colors they play, obviously the better it is. It is very easy to force removal against them, as they have a lot and like the idea of killing both a blocker and a utility threat, which I don't blame them for.

Also, don't be stupid with gempalm. You need to be at least 1 goblins ahead of what you need, sometimes 2 depending on what is on the field. If they bolt in response and their nacatl only takes 2 damage, well, then you just got pwned badly.

You usually want to save your pyrokinesis for either an early lackey connection when the opponent taps out for a guy to block lackey and you don't have stingscourger, a game winning position, or after a clasm effect to clear the board. Don't let lavamancer live too long, he is a god, and jitte is good but can still be played around.

Basically, the skill of the zoo player in his understanding of the matchup will greatly determine your chances."

Tacosnape
10-28-2009, 04:16 PM
Foul's right. You need to stabilize with a pretty solid life total. I really prefer to stay at 12 or above, to keep any combination of three burn spells from annihilating me. This isn't always a circumstance you can control, obviously, but STP and War Marshal help.

P.S.
10-28-2009, 04:23 PM
Actually, the Zoo player didn't Sideboard any cards in the match-up at all. Hell, I wouldn't even say he was playing an optimal build...but the Goblins deck just really could not do anything. Everything was too big on the Zoo side and too small on the Goblins side.

Tarmogoyf, Wild Nacatl, Grim Lavamancer, Kird Ape, & Qasali Pridemage backed up with Lightning Bolt & StP (which I wasn't a big fan of) was just better than what the Goblin deck could do. I guess I just never realized how bad the match-up was. I thought, at worst, it would be like 45-55...but I think it's worse than that.

Sac Land -> Taiga -> Kird Ape just shut the Goblin deck down pretty quickly. Especially on the play.

I'll see about Mogg War Marshall though. The Goblin deck was actually a R/b version too, which I also am not huge on but he had removal in that Tribal-Goblin thing.

EDIT: I was watching Zoo Vs. Goblins at my local card store because I learn more from watching both, initially, than by playing it out. It's quicker than playing with both decks.

Humphrey
10-28-2009, 06:28 PM
the weakness of zoo is their manabase. hard to force 2 wasteland on ur side, but if u can kill their taiga and savannah quick enough, the nacatl and kird are handsome 1/1 critters
if ure lucky u can outrace them in an unexpected counterattack with piles and chieftains.
i might board boartusk lieges against them. since im not playing any burn sb

FoulQ
10-28-2009, 07:07 PM
the weakness of zoo is their manabase. hard to force 2 wasteland on ur side, but if u can kill their taiga and savannah quick enough, the nacatl and kird are handsome 1/1 critters
if ure lucky u can outrace them in an unexpected counterattack with piles and chieftains.
i might board boartusk lieges against them. since im not playing any burn sb

I don't really advise racing them, for two reasons:

1. Making it a race puts both decks in an offensive role. If you do this, you are going to have a hard time competing with the speed of zoo. You may say, "piledriver gets big fast," well,

2. They have enough removal to make the damage race in their favor. That's the whole premise of the zoo deck, that it doesn't fall prey to common aggro weaknesses and no deck in the format can race zoo.

I mean, situations will arise where racing will give you the highest percentage chance of winning, but in general, I think you should aim for getting the zoo player out of attack mode as soon as possible. Once they start feeling like they have to keep guys back for blocking, then you've started to won.

It's the exact same with goblins against control goyf decks. Once goblins has to stop attacking, the game is often in the hands of the control goyf player.

I'm also very wary of both SGC and Boartusk Liege in this matchup because you often won't have enough time to race them, and you want to use your wastelands liberally in this matchup. Boartusk Liege is a great clasm fighter though, so I'd board him in for that, but as far as being an effective TURN FOUR answer to a TURN ONE nacatl, I don't think so. But I would have to test it. But anyways yeah, getting to five mana or more is important for this matchup, so even though there are times when I can't cast SGC, I still leave all 3 in (for now), because resolving him is really rather wonderful against most aggro decks. I'll try boarding out one of my three SGCs though too at some point for a chieftain or something.

Humphrey
10-28-2009, 07:14 PM
u can sometimes rerace them out of nowhere, when the zooplayer doesnt expect some matron/vial/warchief actions. also having instigator or lackey unanswered can help a lot here.
but its a really tough matchup, thats for sure.
in the last match i won with a suprising goblin king, but thats rare.

FoulQ
10-28-2009, 07:19 PM
I guess if the zoo player is dumb enough to fall into warchief/piledriver shenanigans that have been around since 2003, than yes, tricking and racing is an option.

Forbiddian
10-29-2009, 02:23 AM
FoulQ -- Thanks for your help posting here, you've renewed my interest in playing Goblins.

I always thought of Goblins as being relatively shallow in terms of skill level, but your analysis of the Zoo MU was spot on and quite the opposite of how I see Goblins normally played (even against Zoo), and whom I normally see playing Goblins.


Against Zoo, it seems absolutely imperative to get a Vial, because it allows you to use your life as Timewalks and then eventually be able to power past them. A Vial generating an extra 4-5 mana a turn can easily allow that to happen, and I think the Goblins player is favored significantly when he has a Vial.

But I was wondering what you do in the 60-65% of games that you don't open with Vial?

Racing seems out of the question because everything in their deck is more mana efficient than anything in our deck (except with Vial around, this factor is less important than ultimately running out of cards or what have you). It might be possible on the play with a very fast hand.

Mulliganning to Vial is a risky gamble, especially if you had a strong hand. Digging for Vial only has about a 30% chance to pay off, but it might be worth it with a softer hand. It might even be worth it with an average hand or a hand missing a 1 or 2 drop.

I know given no Vial that Goblins has a lot of trouble in this MU, but what's the course of action to maximize your chance to win?

FoulQ
10-29-2009, 02:45 AM
Yeah, mulliganing against zoo can be tricky.

It really depends on quite a few factors. Unfortunately I'm not a math whiz so I can't break it down perfectly.

Generally speaking, if I don't know what I'm playing, I'm going to keep a hand with a basic mountain, a vial, and five goblins on the play. On the draw it depends how effective a turn 1 vial will be calculated against the odds of daze/force, and how likely I think the player will be to daze/force it. Of course there is always force on turn 0, and I have to put this into calculation as well, so I have a hand of mountain + vial + ringleaders I have to question it.

But generally speaking, I don't open that many 1 land hands. Usually I have at least 2, and since I play 17 basic mountains, I don't really have to worry about stifle/waste, which makes SOO many more hands keepable.

If I KNOW I'm playing zoo and it is game 1, I will keep 1 land mountain + vial pretty much immediately. I don't care about pridemage, they either answer it or they will have problems. I think just statistically speaking it is worth the risk for me to draw lands to play out my guys versus their pridemage in hand versus their ability to be a smart enough player to kill my vial versus if they can afford the speed bump in their damage race and so forth blah blah run on sentence. I will also usually keep a hand with a turn 1 lackey, especially on the play. It will slow down their game plan a little bit. Turn 1 lackey on the play can be an especially good situation with stingscourger in hand, because then they only have about 8-12 effective turn 1 answers (chain/bolt/path). Even though that seems like quite a few, I've connected a surprising amount of times with turn 1 lackeys, I don't know why. And with 3 SGCs those connections become much more devastating. Plus 3-4 of those removal spells give me free lands which is sort of what I'm trying to accomplish with lackey anyways (unless they play STP but I've been seeing less of that).

Otherwise, a hand usually needs an instigator and some other good cards to otherwise be keepable. That's another reason I like him: he makes hands without lackey/vial much more keepable. While he is not that great, he will put a significant speed bump in their plans, and if they don't have bolt/path/chain they often have to hold back.

Most other hands I throw back if I know I am playing zoo game 1. Most hands that have a lackey or vial I will keep against anything, and about 75% of the time if I have two mountains, instigator, and some other good stuff I will keep it as well. I mean, I'm not positive if these are the right decisions, but I haven't playing with instigator that long so I don't know at this point.

So I don't think vial is necessary, but it is certainly matchup MVP. Surprisingly, I've found this matchup is really dependent on the zoo player's skill, which is odd, because zoo doesn't take as much skill as say, countertop, where I think skill can matter less. If the zoo player knows they have no choice but to play the aggro role, then your chances are less.

Games 2 and 3 and what to mull/keep I still haven't really gone too deep into yet. Generally it will be the same, I'm thinking. You don't usually need pyrokinesis early unless it plays the same role as stingscourger in connecting your lackeys. (Stingscourger plays other roles too though don't get me wrong)

These thoughts are really scattered and not concise, but those are just some general thoughts on what I've discovered in my testing with mulling/keeping.

Humphrey
10-29-2009, 03:42 AM
zoo with U? u mix up here something.

well ee in the board seems great

1maarten1
10-29-2009, 04:43 AM
zoo with U? u mix up here something.

well ee in the board seems great

He probably means they run 1 volc.island for tribal flames

Humphrey
10-29-2009, 06:12 AM
He probably means they run 1 volc.island for tribal flames

no, hes talking about force and daze ^^

arebennian
10-29-2009, 06:49 AM
Hey, it can happen.....

http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/td/29

Sweetwater D
10-29-2009, 12:05 PM
Generally speaking, if I don't know what I'm playing, I'm going to keep a hand with a basic mountain, a vial, and five goblins on the play. On the draw it depends how effective a turn 1 vial will be calculated against the odds of daze/force, and how likely I think the player will be to daze/force it. Of course there is always force on turn 0, and I have to put this into calculation as well, so I have a hand of mountain + vial + ringleaders I have to question it.


I'm pretty sure hes not talking about zoo when he mentions FoW and daze.

FoulQ
10-29-2009, 01:26 PM
Yeah sorry, I didn't make that clear, but the post has a broader scope than just the zoo matchup. I wasn't talking about zoo in that paragraph.

Forbiddian
10-29-2009, 03:19 PM
Yeah sorry, I didn't make that clear, but the post has a broader scope than just the zoo matchup. I wasn't talking about zoo in that paragraph.

Cool, thanks.

That was pretty much what I was thinking (about how to mulligan).

Edit: my bad. It was originally a two-land hand, but I'd ship that rather than hope for a land in the top two cards. Forgot to take out a card when I added a land.

I mean, sample hand (against Zoo, on the play), do you toss: 3x Mountain, Stingscourger, Piledriver, Ringleader, Matron?

I think that's just about the best hand without a one-drop or mana disruption (I mean, some cards could be switched around, but that's very solid), but it still might be worth digging for Vial or Lackey.

ScatmanX
10-29-2009, 03:25 PM
That hand is awesome! It has 8 cards! Of course I'd go! =D

now, if hand did not have SGC or piledriver among them, I'd keep.

t1 land, t2 bounce, t3 matron for what you need, t4 you should have drawn your 4th land already.

P.S.
10-29-2009, 04:03 PM
Is there a such thing as too many Stingscourger? What about Gempalm Incinerator? At one time, my removal was drastically lower. Now though, with Zoo, Merfolk, the mirror and sometimes Thresh, I kind of want them again.

I think I need to work on a new list.

Humphrey
10-29-2009, 04:23 PM
Mongoose has shroud, goyf is to big and both decks lower ur dudecount with burn, so even nacatl and ape are aout of reach most of the time. :(

FoulQ
10-29-2009, 06:21 PM
@ Forbiddian: I would keep that hand, more than likely. I'd probably go turn 2 sting, turn 3 try go with matroning up a second ringleader and then turn 4 ringleader. Depending on the situation either turn 5 SGC or turn 5 ringleader. At that point the zoo player is going to be in a bad position when you have basically a stream of potential blockers and eventually too many guys for them to handle. I would still hold back some, maybe even the second ringleader, if I feared a clasm effect on the way. I probably wouldn't matron for anything other than ringleader except maybe a second stingscourger if you can't get a fourth land and you are desperate to slow down the clock against you. If this is the case though you are in trouble.

@ P.S.: I wouldn't play 4 stingscourgers. He can be cloggy. I've always been a fan of 6 "removal" spells in the deck with a mixture of weirding/gempalm/stingy, but 5 has also worked for me in the past.

@ Humphrey: Gempalm is conditional, yes, but he is uncounterable and cantripping. He is best in the transitional phases when you are about to go from the army building phase (whether to get around a fat loam crusher or a zoo gang) to the swift killing phase. Otherwise his main role in the format is to kill grim lavamancer and dark confidant (you CANNOT let dark confidant sit around for too long in pretty much any matchup. but that's true for pretty much any deck haha :P).

I know at this point it may seem like to many that I am way to into overextending, but I would disagree with that. First of all, overextension is usually the easiest way to win with goblins, especially game 1. Just be careful not to be running into MD firespout and pernicious deed and WOG and what have you. But with ringleader you can usually recover pretty quickly, and once you have your 8 ringleaders going really active then you can generally afford to play out a large number of guys and still hold many back in your hand. It's extremely important that once the goblin engine gets going, you kill the opponent before they have time to answer your card advantage. The only matchup where this really concerns me is postboard zoo if they bring in pyroclasm, but that's a strange combination of a deck where they take on the aggro role AND they use a clasm effect against us, and there is no other deck in the format that does such a thing.

02Drop
10-29-2009, 08:23 PM
Hi, fairly new to this format, borrowed a deck now and then for small tournaments, but plan to start playing at a weekly one a short drive away. Anyway, here's what I'm looking at:

4 Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief

17 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Sideboard is usually a game day decision, but will likely have
3 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 [Something]

What I've found from initial hands/games is:

-I'd probably like one more land
-I see a bunch of lists running more chieftain but have no idea where to squeeze him in
-Ringleader is far and away my favorite card in the deck and I wish I could run 5
-Is stingscourger really any good? I see a bunch of lists running it, but it hasn't blown my mind as anything beyond a bear that bounces a goyf. Unless I'm missing something

Anyone have any input? Still new to the deck, even though I've read most of this thread, so anything at all is always helpful.

Pastorofmuppets
10-29-2009, 08:52 PM
Hi, fairly new to this format, borrowed a deck now and then for small tournaments, but plan to start playing at a weekly one a short drive away. Anyway, here's what I'm looking at:

4 Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief

17 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Sideboard is usually a game day decision, but will likely have
3 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 [Something]

What I've found from initial hands/games is:

-I'd probably like one more land
-I see a bunch of lists running more chieftain but have no idea where to squeeze him in
-Ringleader is far and away my favorite card in the deck and I wish I could run 5
-Is stingscourger really any good? I see a bunch of lists running it, but it hasn't blown my mind as anything beyond a bear that bounces a goyf. Unless I'm missing something

Anyone have any input? Still new to the deck, even though I've read most of this thread, so anything at all is always helpful.

he hits more than Goyf. In the mirror you can Vial him in to bounce an unopposed Lackey, he puts away Lords as a combat trick against Merfolk, Manlands for Landstill, more than 1/2 of the creatures in Thresh, and random junk in random decks (Rafiq in Bant Survival. If you ever want to get an S:PL on Workstation, Vial a Stingscourger against Rafiq).

ScatmanX
10-29-2009, 10:06 PM
deck

The deck is good. If you want to change just a few things, try -1 Fanatic, -1 Piledriver, +2 Mountains.
Instigator is good. Try it sometime.

Also those 4 remainig SB slots: Pyroknesis.

dr4g0n
10-29-2009, 10:55 PM
@02Drop: Not to be ridiculously picky or anything, but can I suggest replacing the Crypts with Relic of Progenitus? Relic gives you the card draw and offers a pretty good solution to Tarmogoyfs....the only real thing Crypt has over Relic is the lower cost. Also, running a mono-red list, I'm still not sure if Fanatic makes the cut. Some people will probably disagree with me, but I'd much rather run good 2 or 3 drops over the Fanatics.

02Drop
10-30-2009, 12:16 AM
The deck is good. If you want to change just a few things, try -1 Fanatic, -1 Piledriver, +2 Mountains.
Instigator is good. Try it sometime.

Also those 4 remainig SB slots: Pyroknesis.

I could see going down a Fanatic for a mountain, Moggy's not blowing my mind after the damage changes. I dunno about Piledriver personally, but I'll test it with 3. I just find it a lot of matches I've played, his damage getting through is game over. I matron for him quite a lot for that reason. As for Relic, it's 50/50 to me. I like crypt because when dredge or whatever does it's thing turn 1-3, I can play crypt and a goblin. An extra card is always nice though. I'll noodle with it.

DomoKun
10-30-2009, 01:59 AM
Agreed with FoulQ:

1) Don't race with zoo, slow and steady win u the game. You just need to endure till your 4th and 5th.

2) Aether Vial is critical in the first hand, but if you don't get it, you can keep a lackey hand with removal, as long as you can buy time.

3) @P.S: I played lightning bolt and it is a MVP against zoo as it kills the cat , ape and early turn pridemage that kills your vial. I felt stingscourger x 3 is a good number, 4th is overkill.

4) Goblin kill is crazy against zoo when they overexpanded their removal on your gobs for their critters to attack you.

My Japanese WI is arriving soon, coming with a new list like this:

17 mountains
2 ports
4 waste

4 ringleader
4 lackey
3 warchief
4 chieftain
2 SGC
1 kikijiki
3 matron
3 WI
2 piledriver
2 stingscourger
1 goblin king

4 vials
4 lightning bolts

4 chieftain/ 3 warchief is much of my personal choice and I have no problem with that combination. I hate to reduce the matron to 3 but nothing much to cut, kiki jiki is awesome for late game. I wanted to reduce the number of piledriver to 1 but I do not want to lose to merfolk matchup. Any food for thoughts?

GreenOne
10-30-2009, 04:34 AM
Deck

About the deck:
Fanatic is not really worth it anymore. At least not the 4of, 2 should be enough to have some kind of curve.
With less fanatics in the deck Gempalm becomes less appealing, and stingscourger becomes better. You're actually playing only 4 removal slots in the deck, so you probably have to work with them anyway (I'd play 6, but you can go with 5).

So I'd start with -2/3 Fanatics +1 Mountain, +1 Chieftain, +0/1 Stingscourger
And the, after you realize how powerful Chieftain is in fulfilling pilderiver's role, and how piledriver is useful only when you already have a lot of dudes on board, I'd go with
-4 Fanatics, -1 Gempalm, -1 Piledriver, +1 Mountain, +3 Chieftain, +2 Stingscourger.

About the SB:
You need 4 Pyrokinesis, unless your meta has zero aggro decks.
I'd also switch the tormods (or at least a couple of them) with relics, that almost act like cantripping removal against Goyf, and are really nice against tombstalker and other non-ichorid grave-based strategies (like Survival and Loam).

ScatmanX
10-30-2009, 07:58 AM
Deck

The MU agains Merfolk is not won solelly by Piledriver. You are overall better. Specially with Knesis on the SB. In your list I'd drop the King for the 4th Matron.

@02Drop: I have, in my last champ (finally) dropped Fanatics. I was playing R/b, and had 4 Weirdings, 1 Gempalm, 4 Bolt as removal. In Monored, I'd suggest bolt. If you don't like it, use 4 Stingscourer/Gempalm.
I have also dropped Piledriver to 3 and, I thiunk it never really make a diference not running 4...

Humphrey
10-30-2009, 09:06 AM
About Knesis, i dont think its absolutely neccessary, because all the aggrodecks run high toughness critters. So u always trade 2:1 and not 2:2. Bolt would be the better choice i guess. (or EE)

GreenOne
10-30-2009, 09:14 AM
About Knesis, i dont think its absolutely neccessary, because all the aggrodecks run high toughness critters. So u always trade 2:1 and not 2:2. Bolt would be the better choice i guess. (or EE)
Bolt can be indeed sided against say, landstill, taking out things like Stingscourger, but Kinesis is really good against tribal decks, survival, Bant aggro. Even trading 2for1 with an early goyf is good. The good thing about Kinesis is also to be free, and thus speeding up the deck's developement. Trading 2for1 against zoo is not bad, if you manage to gain a board position faster and reach the mid-late game, where you have a card advantage engine and they don't.

(nameless one)
10-30-2009, 10:13 AM
Alright, here is my list right now:


16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 AEther Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB:
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Boartusk Liege
1 ?????

I was going to copy FoulQ's SB but i cant locate it

So two things against zoo. Goblin King and Lightning Bolt, are they that effective? Should I MD them or SB them? What should I remove/side in for them?

Is Anarchy good against Humility/Moat/Ghostly Prison effects?

How do I beat a Landstill deck with this deck (U/R with Volcanic Fallout and lots of burn on their main)? Should I change my deck with a lot of Lord effects?

Is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker that effective on MD?

FoulQ
10-30-2009, 01:30 PM
@02Drop: Not to be ridiculously picky or anything, but can I suggest replacing the Crypts with Relic of Progenitus? Relic gives you the card draw and offers a pretty good solution to Tarmogoyfs....the only real thing Crypt has over Relic is the lower cost. Also, running a mono-red list, I'm still not sure if Fanatic makes the cut. Some people will probably disagree with me, but I'd much rather run good 2 or 3 drops over the Fanatics.

@ dr4g0n: I would not say relic is strictly better than crypt. I am currently running a 3/1 split of relic/crypt. I do not think boarding in relic for goyf alone is really worth it. Tacosnape offered an explanation of the two cards not very far back in the thread. I'm not going to quote it because it will make things confusing with the rest of the quotes:

"So after a lot of testing and thought, I'm starting to second guess Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard over Tormod's Crypt. The logic being, an enemy deck has to have a pretty strong graveyard engine for me to want to board in hate and drop my Goblin count. The three most common things I think I see where I need graveyard hate are:

1. Ichorid. I've seriously lost a ton of games where the game state turned irrecoverable at the time where my board was "Tapped Land, Relic." With Crypt, I don't need mana open to crack the thing, and I can spend my mana dropping Lackeys, Vials, or whatever.

2. Anything with Life From The Loam. In theory? Relic's better here. However, with Aggro Loam arguably being the most common Loam deck and them being able to Chalice-1, sometimes it's easier to get the Crypt going.

3. Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, or other weird graveyard-based combo. Crypt is faster.

Relic's good against Tarmogoyf and Crypt isn't, no debate. However, against most decks packing Tarmogoyf? Relic still isn't worth boarding in. Only in the Aggro Loam matchup do I find myself aching for Relics. So why do I have a card in my sideboard that's good in a situation where I will usually still leave it in my sideboard?"


I could see going down a Fanatic for a mountain, Moggy's not blowing my mind after the damage changes. I dunno about Piledriver personally, but I'll test it with 3. I just find it a lot of matches I've played, his damage getting through is game over. I matron for him quite a lot for that reason. As for Relic, it's 50/50 to me. I like crypt because when dredge or whatever does it's thing turn 1-3, I can play crypt and a goblin. An extra card is always nice though. I'll noodle with it.

@02Drop: If you are matroning for piledriver and you are not planning on winning that turn, I usually would not do that. The only matchup where that is sometimes okay is merfolk, or if you really know you are going to win next turn with something absurd like two piledrivers. But banking on your opponent not having a removal spell to win the game can be risky, especially if your opponent has a lot of removal spells or a better late game than you.

Try doing a 2/2 split or something first of relic/crypt. That will make it fairly obvious, over time, which one you prefer. Or hell, you might just keep the split.


I hate to reduce the matron to 3 but nothing much to cut...

@DomoKun: I would never cut a matron if I'm attempting to play vial goblins. Without 4 matrons, 4 ringleaders, 4 lackeys, and 4 vials, (and to some extent mountain/wasteland/warchief), the whole philosophy of the deck falls apart and certain card choices based upon this philosophy (such as SGC) start to really not work as well.


The MU agains Merfolk is not won solelly by Piledriver. You are overall better. Specially with Knesis on the SB. In your list I'd drop the King for the 4th Matron.

@ ScatmanX: While Piledriver does not win the matchup alone, in my testing I found him to both be the best guy for the early game (excluding probably aether vial) and the best guy to win the game with (particularly in multiples, you can win in one turn!). I agree though, I'd probably drop the king for the 4th matron, and piledriver is not at all necessary to win the matchup, especially with postboard kinesis.


About Knesis, i dont think its absolutely neccessary, because all the aggrodecks run high toughness critters. So u always trade 2:1 and not 2:2. Bolt would be the better choice i guess. (or EE)

@ Humphrey: Test it. The card is much better in practice than on paper, like warren instigator. Kinesis is great in a format defined by tempo. Pyrokinesis is an absolute house in the merfolk and mirror matchup. It is one of your best cards in the zoo matchup, because if you can kill their large guys than your card advantage and land superiority will overwhelm them. Plus, with so many aggro decks on the rise these days, it curb stomps them as well...eva green, goyf sligh, some incarnation of white weenie, bitterblossom faeries, ug fish, you name it.


I was going to copy FoulQ's SB but i cant locate it

My current sideboard is this:

3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Warren Instigator
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pithing Needle

But I don't recommend Jitte unless your meta is infested with merfolk AND you think there will be a lot of opposing jittes in your metagame. People here are strangely obsessed with jitte so I feel forced to run it.

P.S.
10-30-2009, 06:14 PM
Man, I hate to follow-up that lengthy post with my drivel, however I just wanted to say that I have no faith in Goblins anymore and I will be switching decks. I just do not feel that it is a good metagame choice for me anymore. I played the deck for a few years, and it served me well. However, with Zoo and ANT picking up in bigger numbers and the numbers of Merfolk dropping, I just no longer feel comfortable taking a Goblin deck to a tournament that I am trying to win.

Forbiddian
10-30-2009, 07:18 PM
Man, I hate to follow-up that lengthy post with my drivel, however I just wanted to say that I have no faith in Goblins anymore and I will be switching decks. I just do not feel that it is a good metagame choice for me anymore. I played the deck for a few years, and it served me well. However, with Zoo and ANT picking up in bigger numbers and the numbers of Merfolk dropping, I just no longer feel comfortable taking a Goblin deck to a tournament that I am trying to win.

Zoo and ANT aren't really picking up, or if they are in your local meta, it's almost certainly stochastic drift. At the very least, because ANT beats Zoo, increasing ANT numbers will push Zoo back down. I think the most important change affecting current decks is the two new trap cards, which both hurt combo decks. There will also be Metalworker decks running around, Dream Halls decks, and probably Reanimator, but I doubt in large numbers.

I agree that Goblins is fairly susceptible to metagame shifts. It's generally much better against control and aggro/control strategies and very weak against combo, but I don't see much in the new metagame that would lead me to believe that Goblin's bad matchups should increase.

02Drop
11-02-2009, 02:39 PM
I'm going to what I expect to be a fairly large tournament at the end of this month (The SCG 1k in Roanoke) and since this deck is so meta dependent, is this a reasonable choice? I mean, given that size, you should pretty much expect the gauntlet. It's all I've got (Save for a bad 9 land stompy) so if I do play, I'll pack it. But would you bring gobbs of a mono-red variety to this?

lebarion
11-02-2009, 03:20 PM
Hi folks,
I went to a fairly large tournament - 55 people, I think - with a Rb Vial Goblins last weekend and did 2nd place.
I've made no notes and I'm just too lazy to do a detailed report, but I did ID with a friend in the first round, beat 5 colors Aggro Slivers, BGw Rock, lost to mirror and beat Zoo in the swiss. Then beat Enchantress, Merfolk and lost to the mirror again in the final.
My list is maybe a bit outdated. I don't have Instigators and I've left Chieftains in the sideboard because I expected a large number of Dredges and thus used 4 Fanatic main (they killed like 4 Grim Lavamancers and 3 Dark Confidants during the tournament, so I'm happy with then even though I've met no Ichorid).
The black splash was for Weirdings and Wort, Boggart Auntie mainboard and Squads in the sideboard. Weirdings was obviously great against Slivers and Enchantress. I was displeased with Wort the whole tournament and almost always sided them out, as they need to survive unitll my next turn to do anything and that never happened. Squads protected me from Engineered Plagues agains Rock, I believe they are a solid sideboard choice for Rb builds, but don't think there is space for them maindeck.
The price was 15 Zendikar boosters that I've opened for nothing good :frown: . But anyway, the travel and the tournament was a lot of fun.
Props to
- All the guys that organized the tournament, although I'm not sure people from Belo Horizonte read this forum.
- Nuclear, for lending me the Rishadan Ports, and for the ride!
- Maurão, for lending me the Malaterra, and for beating Enchantress with GW Midrange Aggro.
- ScatmanX, for lending me the 3 Pyrokinesis
- Fuzzy, who taught some guys the way to approach Belo Horizonte girls :laugh:
- All the guys from São Paulo that went to BH.
- Miguel, for 4th place after the 5-1 finish with TES!
- Outback's Blooming Onion
Slops:
- ScatmanX, for trying Food Chain Goblins. It is not the way to go, Vial is still better :tongue:

FoulQ
11-02-2009, 04:14 PM
I'm going to what I expect to be a fairly large tournament at the end of this month (The SCG 1k in Roanoke) and since this deck is so meta dependent, is this a reasonable choice? I mean, given that size, you should pretty much expect the gauntlet. It's all I've got (Save for a bad 9 land stompy) so if I do play, I'll pack it. But would you bring gobbs of a mono-red variety to this?

It really is hard to say. The last SCG was a terrible choice for goblins because there was apparently a lot of storm combo (since their was so much zoo the time before). The metagame has therefore made a full shift and I doubt it will change where tons of people are playing countertop again. I think you will see zoo, merfolk, countertop, storm, ichorid, and goblins. There will also be some tempo thresh, stax, and new decks (dark depths / metalworker / entomb decks, etc.). I think you might see a lot of tempo thresh actually, because it just recently won a 135 man tournament (according to deckcheck), and can play ball just fine with storm/zoo/goblins/merfolk. With a meta like that I'd probably want to play either mono-red or red-black. Red-black will give you some tools to fight storm as well as warren weirding for the canadian matchup. It will also give you an OK answer to plague and clasm effects (chieftain + earwig together), which generally see more play at bigger tournaments because decks like goblins usually show up in disproportionate numbers. I think an aether vial deck will be a great choice, because it gets around all the blue decks and stax variants, and also helps in the tempo mirror match. If I were to run red-black I'd want a sideboard of maxing out chieftains, earwig squad, chalice of the void, pyrokinesis, maxing out weirdings. Or something of that nature. Maybe perish and a singleton jitte or something. Without loam being a major player I don't think grave hate is worth it for just ichorid/canadian. Note that chalice of the void will SHOCK tempo thresh players and zoo players (but probably only want it on the play), and is obviously a good tool against storm.

tl, dr: I believe so. Whether to splash for black I think is the real question. Does stifle/waste vulnerability hurt your canadian matchup more than the gains from warren weirding and the black armada? And is that stifle/waste vulnerability worth it for tools against storm and possibly other matchups? In the end though, you'll probably do best with whatever deck or goblin variant you think you are most comfortable with.

@ Lebarion: Do you have a list or tourney report on hand we could take a look at?

Fuzzy
11-03-2009, 03:35 PM
Props to:
- Buttlerrrrr.
- Hi, I'm from São Paulo
- ANULATOR
Slops:
- 30 boosters opened by team mates, the best card was... Foil Mountain


Fixed :wink:

And I split finals this weekend, remember?

ScatmanX
11-03-2009, 05:09 PM
I know that this is Vial goblins, but I could not find the Food Chain Thread, so I hope you guys forgive me for posting here.

So, I went to the same champ as Lebarion. 53 People I guess.
Decklist:

// Lands
4 [P2] Mountain (3)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [R] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [ON] Skirk Prospector
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of Lifeforce
SB: 2 [UD] Compost

1st Match: Canadian Thresh
Game 1: He starts with land go. I do land, Lackey. He land, Goyf. I land, Instigator. He drops 2nd goyf. I attack with Gator, which trades with ½ Goyf. I play Food Chain. He plays Goose, bolt Lackey, and hits. My Ringleader Gets counter, and his turn he drops yet another Goyf! My Matron is Stifled, and next turn Siege-Gang is countered.

Out: 4 Food Chain, 1 Shooter, 1 Prospector, 1 Stingscourer.
In: 4 Leyline of Lifeforce, 3 Blood Moon.

Game 2: Mull to 6 and don’t find Leyline, but keep a solid hand. My 1st turn Lackey is BeB’d his turn. 2nd Turn Lackey is Forced. 3rd Turn Moon is Dazed, and 4th Turn Moon is FoW’d. Oh! And 5th turn Ringleader Stifled. Then I soon lose.
0-1

2nd Match: Ichorid
Teammate, that concedes, due to already having the spot for the final next day.
We play 3 games, and I win the 1st 2, by comboing faster than him.
1-1

3rd Match: Merfolk
Game 1: He leads with Vial, I with Mox + Instigator. He drops Mutavault. I drop Tomb, and Champion my Gator. He drops land and pass. I play Lackey and Pass. He land and pass, I eot “bolt” him. He plays land pass “bolted” again. I draw nothing. His turn he plays land, and a lord. Then, another lord. In response I tap Crafter. He Stifles, and Vial another lord, all 4/4… His next turn he plays 2! More lords, and Standstill….

Out: 4 Food Chain
In: 4 Leyline

Game 2: Mull to 6, no Leyline. 1st turn Lackey is BeB’d his turn. 2nd Turn Gator is FoW’d. He drops that 2/1 guy. My Matron is FoW’d. He drops the 2/1 guy. My 2nd Matron is FoW’d (removing Stifle!!). he drops the 2/1. And beats me. I get to 5 Lands, and have Shooter in hand. Only need Warchief, but draw more land…
1-2

So, I’m off to a bad start, but want to test the deck, so keep playing.

4th Match: Elves.
Game 1: I drop Lackey, he Llanowar. We trade. I Matron. He drops the 2/2 and another one. I Ringleader. He drops some more elves. I Kiki, with Crafter and Prospector in hand. He plays Coat of Arms, morph and unmorph a Tribal force mage, and hit with 4 +7/+7 trampling elves.

Out: 1 Prospector, 1 Kiki, 1 Sting, 1 Chief.
In: 4 Chalice of the Void.

Game 2: I start with land go. He with the 2/2. I Sting, for tempo. He drops it again, and another. I food Chain. He drop some elves. I Ringleader, into Ringleader, into some stuff. He “ringleader”s into nothing much. I combo nest turn.

Game 3: he land, Llanowar. I land, Mox, Chalice. He K. Grip. I hit a few times, he hit a few times. He has 2 “ringleaders”, and 4 1/1’s in play, and I have a Ringleader, a Warchief, and a Instigator. I topdeck Shooter, that kills 4 guys, then Siege-Gang, that kill the rest.
2-2

5th Match: White Stax
Game 1: I drop land, go. He land, Mox, Chalice at 1. I drop Tomb, and Food Chain. He drop land + Trinisphere. I Play land, Matron, and combo trough.

In: 3 Blood Moon.
Out: 3 Sting.

Game 2: De does nothing, and I combo in Turn 4.
3-2

6th Match: TES
Game 1: I mull to 3, and lose on turn 3 or 4.

Out: 3 Sting, 1 Shooter, 1 Chief, 2 Prospector.
In: 4 Chalice, 3 Blood Moon.

Game 2: 1st turn Chalice at 1, 2nd turn Instigator, and I’d be able to combo 4th turn. He tries first, but fizzles.

Game 3: He land, go. I land, Chalice at 0, Lackey. 2 turns later I drop chalice at 1, and that’s game.
4-2

Due to Standings, I end up in 9th…

Next day, I play another event, with this changes:
MB: +1 Crafter, -1 Sting.
SB: -4 Leyline, - 3 Blood Moon, -2 Compost, + 3 Magus of the Moon, + 2 Anarchy, +3 Summoning Trap (didn’t find the 4th) +1 Pyroknesis.
Magus is better here, since Game 2 against some decks, I can side out food chain, and have 0 Enchantments in the deck, makin K. grips useless.

1st Match: Canadian (same guy)
Game 1: Don’t remember. He stays with 20 life, and I go from 20, to 18, to 14, to scoop.

Out: 1 Shooter, 2 Sting, 1 Prospector, 1 Crafter.
In: 3 Trap, 3 Magus.

Game 2: It is tuff, but I manage to connect Gator, and Win Shortly after.

Out: -3 Magus, -1 Pyromancer.
In: +4 Chalice.

Game 3: Long game. When at 10, and him at 16, I have Food Chain, and he a Goyf. I drop Matron for Ringleader. He counters. OK. I play the TRAP, getting SGC into play.I hit for 4 once, but he drops another guy. I start just blocking, and sac gobs in his face. His life does this: 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, 0.
1-0

2nd Match: Canadian
Don’t remember really. He wins Game 1 and 3. I find no Traps. He has Meltdown, so I don’t side Chalice game 3.
1-1

3rd Match: Enchantress.
Game 1: 1st turn Instigator. He plays the enchant land. I drop Ringleader and Food Chain. He drops Enchantress. I combo.

Out: 2 Sting.
In: 2 Anarchy.

Game 2: He starts too slow, and I do the same thing as Game 1, only without the Mox.
2-1

4th Match: Dredge
Game 1: I lackey, he P.imp. I Sting, put Matron into play, Search for Prospector. He Dredges 6, hitting 2 Bridges and 2 Moebas (+1 Bridge discarded for P.imp). Bridges dies to Sting. I get to bounce his 2 moebas, with Sting+kiki, than combo when Matron for Crafter.

Out: 1 Sting.
In: 1 Knesis.

Game 2: He land, go. I land, mox, Gator, go. He LED, explode uses Deep Anal. Into nothing much. I drop Kiki + Crafter from Gator, and cast Prospector FTW.
3-1

4th Match: GW Homebrew
Game 1: I start with Lackey, and he with Mother of Runes. We trade. I play food Chain, and he Jitte. I ringleader, into Ringleader, into nothing much. I take him down to 14, but he K. Finks. I go to 11 because of Tombs + Fetches, and drop a 3rd Ringleader, finding no Matron, But Instigaor, Warchief and Sharpshooter. I attack with Gator, Leader, and Chief. He blocks Chief. In resp to block, I ping him with Shooter. Shooter untaps with 1st trigger, and I ping him. I attempt to untap Shooter with second trigger, to kill Finks, but he says I can’t. I explain how Shooter trigger twice, and I can use the 1st trigger, tap him, then use the 2sn trigger, but he says I can’t. I call the judge, and the judge says that though Shooter trigger twice, he only untaps ONCE! WTF! O.0 So… he equips, hit, kill shooter and Gator, dropping another guy, and winning shortly after. If Shooter had untapped, I would be able to take out his last 4 life. Oh well...

Out: somethings.
In: 4 Chalice, 1 Knesis, 2 Anarchy.

Game 2: Quite long, envolving Knesis, 2 anarchy’s, Burreton Forge Tender, StP, Tegg, Exalted Angel, Food Chain (but 0 Matrons…) and a bad Chalice at 1 lategame, while I should have dropped for 2. He topdecks 2 goyfs, and win shortly after.
3-2
End up not getting to top 4…

So, basically, to make a comparison to a “common” Goblin list:
- I lost to Canadian twice, and won once. Goblins have a bad MU against Canadian normally.
- I won against Dredge twice, without any gravehate from SB. Goblins has a hard time doing it.
- I won from Stax, and Enchantress, which goblins is bad against.
- I won against TES, which is very difficult for goblins.
- I won against Elves, which is so-so against goblins.
- I lost to Merfolk, but due to he being incredibly lucky, with 4 lords game 1, and 1 BeB and 3 FoW’s game 2.

So, overall, I think it worked better that a common goblin build would do, and I really enjoyed it. Not saying it is strictly better, just saying it is a viable option.

Hope that’s not very long. =]

Humphrey
11-03-2009, 05:47 PM
how exactly does the combo work? i cant see where to get all the cards u need for a win.

ScatmanX
11-03-2009, 05:54 PM
You can combo:
1 - With Food Chain in Plain, 4 lands, and a Matron in hand. You get to attack with 5 4/1 hasty tokens doing some shannenigans (coping Matron, for ringleader, to untap kiki, copy matron again...). (thats how I beat Stax)
2- Kiki Jiki + Lightning Crafter + Sac outlet. (copy crafter, champion kiki. Deals 3 with copy, than sac it. kiki comes back untapped. Repeat)
3- Kiki + Crafter + Shooter. (copy kills itself, while shooter does 1 dmg and untaps. Kiki comes back untapped.)

Tacosnape
11-03-2009, 07:19 PM
Technically, Goblins wouldn't have had any trouble winning your first dredge match, since the player conceded. Nor would have a Ravnica preconstructed deck for that matter.

This list is interesting, I have to say though. I'm intrigued.

johanessen
11-03-2009, 07:38 PM
Game 2: 1st turn Chalice at 1, 2nd turn lackey,

Hum...

ScatmanX
11-03-2009, 08:09 PM
Hum...
Omg! You cought me!
Really constructive your commentary.

edited to instigator.

Forbiddian
11-03-2009, 11:34 PM
I do find it slightly hard to believe that Leyline of Lifeforce is good.

It protects your creatures from counters, but your Food Chains are still vulnerable, so it's not like you leave their countermagic dead. Especially boarding it in against Merfolk where their only countermagic is Force of Will, Daze, and then any BEBs that they might have boarded in (but BEBs can still shoot creatures, so again: not totally dead). Even protecting Lackey from the play (a rare start to get Leyline + Lackey), it only stops Force of Will out. Merfolk still has Cursecatcher and BEBs. On the draw, it also stops the Daze out, but Merfolk has Cursecatcher, BEB, Lord, Silvergill, Echoing Truth

Plus, it's useless off the topdeck.


I can see how you don't want your guys countered, but man, Leyline seems clunky as hell. I think I'd rather have City of Solitude or Vexing Shusher in all the situations I can think of.


I dunno, I'll stop trying to make up some situations. I think you have it in for a specific reason, but I have no idea what. Mind enlightening me/us?

ScatmanX
11-04-2009, 03:32 AM
I do find it slightly hard to believe that Leyline of Lifeforce is good.

It protects your creatures from counters, but your Food Chains are still vulnerable, so it's not like you leave their countermagic dead. Especially boarding it in against Merfolk where their only countermagic is Force of Will, Daze, and then any BEBs that they might have boarded in (but BEBs can still shoot creatures, so again: not totally dead). Even protecting Lackey from the play (a rare start to get Leyline + Lackey), it only stops Force of Will out. Merfolk still has Cursecatcher and BEBs. On the draw, it also stops the Daze out, but Merfolk has Cursecatcher, BEB, Lord, Silvergill, Echoing Truth

Plus, it's useless off the topdeck.


I can see how you don't want your guys countered, but man, Leyline seems clunky as hell. I think I'd rather have City of Solitude or Vexing Shusher in all the situations I can think of.


I dunno, I'll stop trying to make up some situations. I think you have it in for a specific reason, but I have no idea what. Mind enlightening me/us?

The deal is, when you side Leyline in, you side Food Chain out. So basically all spells are uncaunterable. But that was kind of bad also, because the opponent sided echant hate G2.

That's why I moved to Summoning Trap. It is way better. I wish I could have found a 4th in the champ. And if G2 I side out Food Chain, that would leave them with useless enchant hate in hand, that I can bring back G3 if wanted.
I don't know if Vial goblins has SB space for the Trap (because it is in the slot of grave hate cards), or even if is needed, as Vial is run.

Fuzzy
11-04-2009, 04:04 PM
Hum...

It was Chalice at 0, Lackey, Chalice at 1. That's why I lose.

sauce
11-04-2009, 10:53 PM
Can someone who's been playing a proven gobos list (Rbg wastes/ports) comment on the naya zoo matchup?

Tacosnape
11-05-2009, 09:09 AM
Can someone who's been playing a proven gobos list (Rbg wastes/ports) comment on the naya zoo matchup?

Given that there's -not- a proven RBG Waste/Port list, probably not.

Anyways, for the 100th time, Mogg War Marshal is the best weapon in this matchup. Swords to Plowshares is the second.

Gibsonmac
11-05-2009, 09:39 AM
Given that there's -not- a proven RBG Waste/Port list, probably not.

Anyways, for the 100th time, Mogg War Marshal is the best weapon in this matchup. Swords to Plowshares is the second.

Yeah good call on the Marshall, it has been pretty solid, though I really do not like the card outside of the mu these days, what did you pull out of your list to make room?

arebennian
11-05-2009, 09:55 AM
Given that there's -not- a proven RBG Waste/Port list, probably not.

Anyways, for the 100th time, Mogg War Marshal is the best weapon in this matchup. Swords to Plowshares is the second.

So what is the best Tribal hate to SB if you plan to SB for the Aggro or Tribal matchups?
Pyrokenisis or Mogg War Marshall?

sauce
11-05-2009, 10:26 AM
Given that there's -not- a proven RBG Waste/Port list, probably not.

Anyways, for the 100th time, Mogg War Marshal is the best weapon in this matchup. Swords to Plowshares is the second.

fair enough, i mean what would you say the percentages are in this matchup?

Forbiddian
11-07-2009, 04:29 AM
fair enough, i mean what would you say the percentages are in this matchup?

FoulQ talked extensively about it a little earlier.

Read his post -- it's well worth the read, but to paraphrase, he said that if Zoo knows it should be playing beatdown and then executes well, the matchup is difficult, but that many times you can trick (especially inexperienced) Zoo players into playing more defensively.

Goblins is supposed to be a cinch matchup for Zoo, and a lot more Zoo players know that factoid than know how to actually execute the win.

Bongo
11-13-2009, 10:35 AM
Lately, I've been having the problem that I'm too slow unless I have Vial or Lackey in my starting hand.
Has anybody else experimented with Simian Spirit Guide? If so, what were your results?

I'm running a MonoRed version with the following manabase:

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Simian Spirit Guide

P.S.
11-13-2009, 01:51 PM
Simian Spirit Guide

How does it help? I mean, if you have a first turn Lackey or Vial, you can play either one anyway. If you have both, I guess that would be something...but that involves having a Goblin Lackey, AEther Vial, Simian Spirit Guide and Mountain all in your opening hand. A turn two Warchief?

"Cast AEther Vial." "Daze." "Oh, pay it with Guide! Tech!"

Yeah...doesn't seem that good to me, honestly. Plus it's not a Goblin. If you're too slow, have you tried Rishadan Port? A lot of people still run it because it can slow your opponent down and cut off a color in certain match-ups. I know FoulQ (I think it was him) still rocks 2 Ports.

Gobbos is really more about the mid-game and winning with card advantage. Through playing stuff for free (Vial, Instigator, Lackey) or getting more cards (Matron, Ringleader) or just more than one effect for one card (Siege-Gang).

I think Gobs is a monster deck, it's just metagame dependant. For me, there's too much ANT and Zoo to run it right now...but I don't think Simian Spirit Guide is the answer. It doesn't really make you any faster and after about turn three, it's a dead draw. I have not tested it, so if it's working for you, that's cool. I won't completely shit on the idea 'cause I welcome innovation...but I can't foresee it being anything that alters the deck across the board, like Instigator did when it was printed.

Bongo
11-14-2009, 08:13 AM
I think you misunderstood - I want SSG in the cases where I do NOT draw Vial or Lackey.

I understand that the strength of Goblin lies in its midgame, but the problem I've encountered was that my opponents were already ahead by the time I'm playing Ringleaders. Playing catch-up did not lead to good results, hence why I'm trying to speed the deck up with SSG.

The main purpose of SSG is to either accelerate out a Warren Instigator on the first turn or a Warchief/Chieftain on the second. This would give me a greater number of good openings.

Port is a card I played before, but started to dislike. Its usefulness dramatically decreases on the draw, and you don't want to be porting when your opponent plays a first turn Nacatl.

Joon
11-14-2009, 10:14 AM
I can see SSG being useful by playing Warchief/chieftain Turn 2. It works kinda like the lists with Gemstone Caverns, only that Caverns are permanent and SSG is not.

It could be cool to play Vial and Lackey Turn 1 or to summon a Turn 1 Instigator, but I guess those plays fall under the category "Danger of Cool Things".

Humphrey
11-14-2009, 10:15 AM
Somehow it doesnt sound that bad. I mean even the ability to "counter" daze is awesome. U get ur 1st Turn Lackey otp and opponent loses a landdrop

Gibsonmac
11-14-2009, 11:19 AM
I'll try it just for the hell of it, cause I'm sassy like that... FU daze!!

Mark Sun
11-15-2009, 02:27 AM
Hey guys. I've cheating on Landstill to be here... :eek:

I've developed an interest in Goblins lately, and have decided to give the mono-R version a shot here. I've seen a lot of lists in this thread, and with the help of my teammate Eric (Media314r8), I have a list that I'd like to ask for comments/refinement. Please keep in mind this is for a blind metagame, but I do have SB questions towards the end.


// Lands
18 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter


All right. So, I guess I'll start with the basics. To start with, 22 Lands seems to be +/-1 to the general consensus here. The first 12 Goblins are, of course, what this deck runs off of, and those slots are locked. I'm not sure if I want to run Instigator or not, and if I do, I'm not sure what to take out. Let's assume that I don't want to drop money on Instigators for now. After that, besides the 4 Aether Vial, there's a lot of flex.

4 Chieftain / 4 Warchief: I think these guys are the Lords and are the backbone of this deck. Both guys grant haste, and are pretty good for the "oops, I dealt lethal" type win. I like Warchief, but I don't know, is he worth 4x slot in this list? He's great if you can sneak him in t3, t4 --> War Marshal, PD, etc. Cuts the card advantage guys down a little too which is nice.

4 Gempalm Incinerator /1 Stingscourger: I think there's a good possibility this could be 3/2, but I like the Incinerator and the card you get back from it. Thoughts on this? I know GI gets downgraded to a cantrip against something like, t1 Kird Ape or an empty board, but with the War Marshal its value increases in this list.

2 Siege-Gang Commander: Is this enough? My fear is not to drive the curve up (I've seen lists with 3-4), as I want every card to be as alive as possible. I know people lean more towards 23, but with 1 less mountain, I feel like 2 is the correct call here.

3 Mogg War Marshal: No explanation needed. I think this card is wonderful, and I think a lot of people here do too. Extra bodies, ramps up Incinerator, Piledriver, and the gang. Also pretty nice with Chieftains in play.




SB slots #1-4: 4 Relic of Progenitus: Standard GY hate. Ichorid is still alive, I can't think of anything else GY dependent that could be relevant besides Loam decks (hold a mountain and a vial, right? :smile:) and Reanimator decks. Crypt is obviously still available in this slot, but Relic will cantrip and make Goyfs/Geese x/1's again.

SB slots #5-8: 4 Pyrokinesis: Takes care of hordes of small guys, another way to power Lackey through,

SB slots #9-11: 3 Boartusk Liege: Additional Lord-age.

SB slots #12-14: 3 Goblin Tinkerer: Just a draft, and possibly overkill, but seems to be the choice for artifact hate. Is Goblin Vandal another possibility here?

SB slot #15: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter: Pretty good card, dominates x/1's, and probably does pretty well in the mirror.



So that's it. As you see, I have no combo hate here. So here's my question: is it worth it to devote any slots to combo hate? I know Thorn of Amethyst is a popular choice here as a 3 or 4 of, and Pyrostatic Pillar as well. I also have:


Specific color hate, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast (Merfolk? Landstill? MUC?).
Specific color hate, Anarchy (kills Moat, Humility, etc).
Zo-Zu, the Punisher: seems useful against decks that are dependent on land manipulation / higher mana curves (Loam comes to mind, so does Landstill).
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: Probably a "win-more" rather than useful card. I don't think I'm including this dude. (Danger of cool things!)
Goblin King: I mainly say this for the Zoo matchup. Another Lord and the ability to sneak whatever isn't PtE'ed/Helix'ed/Lightning Bolt'ed in.
Lightning Crafter: Kinda-sorta a Sharpshooter, but less broken. The other reason I like this guy is because of the Champion ability, hide a Ringleader to recover from something like a Firespout or WoG.
Umezawa's Jitte: Shrinks their dudes, makes your dudes bigger. I don't see the issue, except that it kills your Ringleader rips.
Pithing Needle: Can buy a lot of time against a lot of decks. Choices I can see myself naming: SDT, Survival of the Fittest.
Chalice of the Void: Combo hate. But probably more or less, could be a way to slow the bleeding against Zoo/Burn, or just to shut off StP. Also shuts down Vial/Lackey, but you probably are playing this after t1.
Vexing Shusher: I like stuff that can't be countered.
Moon effects (Magus or Blood Moon): I like Magus a ton, especially if he can be vialed in. Shuts down some decks entirely if they're not being careful.
Non-Gobo artifact destruction (Shattering Spree/Smash to Smithereens, etc): Self explanatory. I mean, probably don't see a ton of stuff like Stax, but if you do...



And last, sideboarding: I've read about some of the strategies in Tournament Reports. Obviously you're taking out your goblin body count (or are you? Do you ever take out Vial?). So at what point does, say, does it hurt to add in hate because you're killing your Ringleader rips? This kind of applies for putting Pillars/Thorns in the SB and putting 7-8 cards in. Is it really worth it? Any comments or thoughts? I think I covered all the bits, and of course, thanks for any constructive comments.

--M

1maarten1
11-15-2009, 06:05 AM
Hey guys. I've cheating on Landstill to be here... :eek:

I've developed an interest in Goblins lately, and have decided to give the mono-R version a shot here. I've seen a lot of lists in this thread, and with the help of my teammate Eric (Media314r8), I have a list that I'd like to ask for comments/refinement. Please keep in mind this is for a blind metagame, but I do have SB questions towards the end.


// Lands
18 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter


All right. So, I guess I'll start with the basics. To start with, 22 Lands seems to be +/-1 to the general consensus here. The first 12 Goblins are, of course, what this deck runs off of, and those slots are locked. I'm not sure if I want to run Instigator or not, and if I do, I'm not sure what to take out. Let's assume that I don't want to drop money on Instigators for now. After that, besides the 4 Aether Vial, there's a lot of flex.

4 Chieftain / 4 Warchief: I think these guys are the Lords and are the backbone of this deck. Both guys grant haste, and are pretty good for the "oops, I dealt lethal" type win. I like Warchief, but I don't know, is he worth 4x slot in this list? He's great if you can sneak him in t3, t4 --> War Marshal, PD, etc. Cuts the card advantage guys down a little too which is nice.

4 Gempalm Incinerator /1 Stingscourger: I think there's a good possibility this could be 3/2, but I like the Incinerator and the card you get back from it. Thoughts on this? I know GI gets downgraded to a cantrip against something like, t1 Kird Ape or an empty board, but with the War Marshal its value increases in this list.

2 Siege-Gang Commander: Is this enough? My fear is not to drive the curve up (I've seen lists with 3-4), as I want every card to be as alive as possible. I know people lean more towards 23, but with 1 less mountain, I feel like 2 is the correct call here.

3 Mogg War Marshal: No explanation needed. I think this card is wonderful, and I think a lot of people here do too. Extra bodies, ramps up Incinerator, Piledriver, and the gang. Also pretty nice with Chieftains in play.




SB slots #1-4: 4 Relic of Progenitus: Standard GY hate. Ichorid is still alive, I can't think of anything else GY dependent that could be relevant besides Loam decks (hold a mountain and a vial, right? :smile:) and Reanimator decks. Crypt is obviously still available in this slot, but Relic will cantrip and make Goyfs/Geese x/1's again.

SB slots #5-8: 4 Pyrokinesis: Takes care of hordes of small guys, another way to power Lackey through,

SB slots #9-11: 3 Boartusk Liege: Additional Lord-age.

SB slots #12-14: 3 Goblin Tinkerer: Just a draft, and possibly overkill, but seems to be the choice for artifact hate. Is Goblin Vandal another possibility here?

SB slot #15: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter: Pretty good card, dominates x/1's, and probably does pretty well in the mirror.



So that's it. As you see, I have no combo hate here. So here's my question: is it worth it to devote any slots to combo hate? I know Thorn of Amethyst is a popular choice here as a 3 or 4 of, and Pyrostatic Pillar as well. I also have:


Specific color hate, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast (Merfolk? Landstill? MUC?).
Specific color hate, Anarchy (kills Moat, Humility, etc).
Zo-Zu, the Punisher: seems useful against decks that are dependent on land manipulation / higher mana curves (Loam comes to mind, so does Landstill).
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: Probably a "win-more" rather than useful card. I don't think I'm including this dude. (Danger of cool things!)
Goblin King: I mainly say this for the Zoo matchup. Another Lord and the ability to sneak whatever isn't PtE'ed/Helix'ed/Lightning Bolt'ed in.
Lightning Crafter: Kinda-sorta a Sharpshooter, but less broken. The other reason I like this guy is because of the Champion ability, hide a Ringleader to recover from something like a Firespout or WoG.
Umezawa's Jitte: Shrinks their dudes, makes your dudes bigger. I don't see the issue, except that it kills your Ringleader rips.
Pithing Needle: Can buy a lot of time against a lot of decks. Choices I can see myself naming: SDT, Survival of the Fittest.
Chalice of the Void: Combo hate. But probably more or less, could be a way to slow the bleeding against Zoo/Burn, or just to shut off StP. Also shuts down Vial/Lackey, but you probably are playing this after t1.
Vexing Shusher: I like stuff that can't be countered.
Moon effects (Magus or Blood Moon): I like Magus a ton, especially if he can be vialed in. Shuts down some decks entirely if they're not being careful.
Non-Gobo artifact destruction (Shattering Spree/Smash to Smithereens, etc): Self explanatory. I mean, probably don't see a ton of stuff like Stax, but if you do...



And last, sideboarding: I've read about some of the strategies in Tournament Reports. Obviously you're taking out your goblin body count (or are you? Do you ever take out Vial?). So at what point does, say, does it hurt to add in hate because you're killing your Ringleader rips? This kind of applies for putting Pillars/Thorns in the SB and putting 7-8 cards in. Is it really worth it? Any comments or thoughts? I think I covered all the bits, and of course, thanks for any constructive comments.

--M

Nice list, but please explain why no Warren Instigator? I would go -1 mountain, -1 incinerator +2 stingscourger MD. SB: -2 tinkerer + 2 anarchy.

Im still not a huge fan of WI, but i think thats just me :tongue: I find him just to slow, i know he is a must counter, etc and when he lands he wins.. but i still find him slow and a (little) win more.

~Maarten

arebennian
11-15-2009, 07:47 AM
With 8 Haste Lords I think one Stingscourger is a mistake......

(nameless one)
11-15-2009, 09:25 AM
Nice list, but please explain why no Warren Instigator? I would go -1 mountain, -1 incinerator +2 stingscourger MD. SB: -2 tinkerer + 2 anarchy.

Im still not a huge fan of WI, but i think thats just me :tongue: I find him just to slow, i know he is a must counter, etc and when he lands he wins.. but i still find him slow and a (little) win more.

~Maarten

When I play Warren Instigator, I consider him more as a bait.

Having a bait for counterpells and spot removals open opportunities to your other important goblins.

Baits also forces an inexperienced players to play thier mass removal spells early as well.

Worse comes to worst, Warren Instigator sticks in the field and actually help you win the game.

Mark Sun
11-15-2009, 11:46 AM
Nice list, but please explain why no Warren Instigator? I would go -1 mountain, -1 incinerator +2 stingscourger MD. SB: -2 tinkerer + 2 anarchy.

Im still not a huge fan of WI, but i think thats just me :tongue: I find him just to slow, i know he is a must counter, etc and when he lands he wins.. but i still find him slow and a (little) win more.

~Maarten

Well, as I said, I don't know what I could take out for him. WI is a great card, don't get me wrong. I just think that :r::r: and losing out on Lords, Utility Goblins, etc, would probably hurt this deck a little more. I tend to agree with (nameless one) in the sense that he does draw out the fire because of his potential once he hits the board. Although, it would be great to live the dream with a single Matron --> goes in after first strike damage, find a bomb, he's in, go.

I can definitely do -1 GI +1 SS, but I don't think going under 22 lands in this deck is a good idea.



With 8 Haste Lords I think one Stingscourger is a mistake......

Too little or too less? :eyebrow:

Gibsonmac
11-15-2009, 12:02 PM
Well, as I said, I don't know what I could take out for him. WI is a great card, don't get me wrong. I just think that :r::r: and losing out on Lords, Utility Goblins, etc, would probably hurt this deck a little more. I tend to agree with (nameless one) in the sense that he does draw out the fire because of his potential once he hits the board. Although, it would be great to live the dream with a single Matron --> goes in after first strike damage, find a bomb, he's in, go.

I can definitely do -1 GI +1 SS, but I don't think going under 22 lands in this deck is a good idea.




Too little or too less? :eyebrow:

You NEED to run instigator, there is no reason not to play 4, dually in mono-red... yeah pretty much a staple now... also, probably need at least 2 stingscourger with 8 hasters...

3 Siege Gang Commander is the new hottness, it is ridiculous with 8 lackey effects... SOLID SOLID SOILD man

*EDIT* you can safely run 21 land in a build with 8 lackey

stacker
11-15-2009, 12:27 PM
i'm sort of new to goblins, what's the consensus on r/b goblins versus mono-red?

from what i can gather, if there's a lot of LD via waste effects, mono is the way to go. but if there aren't? or if it's a blind meta? is mono just more explosive or something? it seems the last few pages are mono-favoring, but i don't see why r/b has fallen out of favor.

Gibsonmac
11-15-2009, 01:16 PM
i'm sort of new to goblins, what's the consensus on r/b goblins versus mono-red?

from what i can gather, if there's a lot of LD via waste effects, mono is the way to go. but if there aren't? or if it's a blind meta? is mono just more explosive or something? it seems the last few pages are mono-favoring, but i don't see why r/b has fallen out of favor.

Read the thread... it's all throughout the last 10 pgs

arebennian
11-15-2009, 03:49 PM
*EDIT* you can safely run 21 land in a build with 8 lackey

I disagree with this portion of your statement. You still want to hit your 4th land drop on your 4th or 5th turn. Going as low as 21 lands and you will struggle to do that, and you will end up with unplayable cards in hand (like one of the three Commanders you advocate).

Gibsonmac
11-15-2009, 04:14 PM
I disagree with this portion of your statement. You still want to hit your 4th land drop on your 4th or 5th turn. Going as low as 21 lands and you will struggle to do that, and you will end up with unplayable cards in hand (like one of the three Commanders you advocate).

Tested extensively in a dozen or so sanctioned tournaments, no problems, I've never had to or wanted to 'hard cast' a SGC with 4 mana... in fact the deck does everything you want it to with 3 land in play

BreathWeapon
11-15-2009, 05:26 PM
I think if you're curving down to 21 then you're running 4xSkirk Prospect, curving out and cutting lands for more SCGs is probably an option. Tho' honestly, how many SCGs do you really need? You get to drop an SCG every time you get to drop a Matron first, I thought you'd run less instead of more *shrug.*

Gibsonmac
11-15-2009, 06:47 PM
I think if you're curving down to 21 then you're running 4xSkirk Prospect, curving out and cutting lands for more SCGs is probably an option. Tho' honestly, how many SCGs do you really need? You get to drop an SCG every time you get to drop a Matron first, I thought you'd run less instead of more *shrug.*

no prospector, very similar to FoulQ's list, -2 port, and 8 hasters, 8 lackey's... I curve out by having 8 lackey effects... works very nicely... having as many SGC as possible to drop off of t1/t2 lackey effect consistently is re-frickin-dicilous

Bongo
11-15-2009, 07:13 PM
I strongly advise against cutting lands. Goblins are very manahungry, and you want to play land from turns 1-4. Math dictates that you need to run at least 24 manasources to accomplish this.
In the old Goblin thread, there was even talk about going up to 25 manasources.

Btw, I can recommend SSG from my limited testing. Helps at the start (where you need the most help) and somewhat prevents flooding in the lategame, since you only run 20 "real" lands. Having an additional creature has also been relevant.

I'm actually not convinced that Instigator is the way to go in MonoRed. Which matchup does it make better?
I found Marshall and Scourger to be of greater use, especially against Goyfs and Zoo.

Gibsonmac
11-15-2009, 08:53 PM
all of them... period.

Mark Sun
11-16-2009, 12:18 AM
Btw, can someone direct me to matchup analysis? Just looking for more information in addition to Tourney Reports and whatnot, and how to board (if I have those cards). Thanks.

FoulQ
11-16-2009, 01:32 AM
I think if you're curving down to 21 then you're running 4xSkirk Prospect, curving out and cutting lands for more SCGs is probably an option. Tho' honestly, how many SCGs do you really need? You get to drop an SCG every time you get to drop a Matron first, I thought you'd run less instead of more *shrug.*

I strongly disagree with this. If you are fetching SGC with Matron a lot of the time, then you are playing this deck incorrectly. He is probably target #2, but far and away target #1 is going to be ringleader.

I like 23 lands. I don't know how playable 3 SGC is with 21 lands. YES, the deck can survive on 21 lands. The difference is, I like to use my wastelands.

Here's what I wrote about instigator earlier and I stand by it,

"I didn't mean to say 'Oh, take out your weirdings and put instigators in. They replace each other,' but I can tell why it might be conveyed like that. What warren weirding does is kills off blockers. Well, no duh. More subtly, it allows goblins to continue the aggro role. That's why warren weirding is not good against zoo or merfolk most of the time. Because we are not trying to continue an aggro role, we are trying to survive to the late game to use our card advantage engines that those decks do not possess.

Now instigator. He does the same thing: allow goblins to continue to be in the beatdown - in the driver's seat, so to speak. He forces the opponent to think twice, sort of like piledriver, but he is a god by himself and with others, unlike piledriver. Does that mean 4 of? That's still up for debate. I run 3 as of now because I don't find him to be very good in the aggro matchup and my meta has quite a bit of merfolk/zoo right now (I now play the 4th copy in the sideboard)."

arebennian
11-16-2009, 03:29 AM
I strongly disagree with this. If you are fetching SGC with Matron a lot of the time, then you are playing this deck incorrectly. He is probably target #2, but far and away target #1 is going to be ringleader.

I like 23 lands. I don't know how playable 3 SGC is with 21 lands. YES, the deck can survive on 21 lands. The difference is, I like to use my wastelands.

+1
You don't need 4+ lands to cast SGC (I used them simply as an example of cards that may be dead cards in your hand), you need them for Ringleader.

Running 21 lands, surely you are reliant upon a Lackey effect or vial and if one fails to stick, you just can't recover???

BreathWeapon
11-16-2009, 05:35 AM
Fetching Ringleader over Commander is more or less removal dependent, if the opponent isn't MDing Fire Spout then Commander > Ringleader just for ending the game faster.

I've been really, really happy with this

4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Skirk Prospecter
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Stingscrounger
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
17 Mountains

Gibsonmac
11-16-2009, 11:21 AM
+1
You don't need 4+ lands to cast SGC (I used them simply as an example of cards that may be dead cards in your hand), you need them for Ringleader.

Running 21 lands, surely you are reliant upon a Lackey effect or vial and if one fails to stick, you just can't recover???

you can indeed recover... that's 12 cards, you'll see multiple... also 3 land is all you really need to get out matron/hasters/all threats, sure there are situations where all your threats get forced/dazed/whatev... but that happens in any deck... my philosophy is, as with any shell I play, focused on explosive consistency... it fits my playstyle and I have very good results... play a build you feel most comfortable with and you will do well...

Just an aside... the 'optimal' builds are different in every area, and with everypilot based on playstyle... my build works very well for me... I ALWAYS finish t8 every time (although I do not play in 100+ man tourneys often, so take it as you may)

FoulQ
11-16-2009, 06:47 PM
Fetching Ringleader over Commander is more or less removal dependent, if the opponent isn't MDing Fire Spout then Commander > Ringleader just for ending the game faster.

I've been really, really happy with this

4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Skirk Prospecter
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Stingscrounger
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
17 Mountains

Ringleader or SGC is removal dependent? I've looked back and seen you are also the guy was suggesting root maze and goblin bushwhacker, so do you really know what you are talking about?

I think you have a different playstyle than myself, and normally that would be ok, but that playstyle is suboptimal in the case of consistency. You will have explosive wins and blowouts with the idea of 3 SGC + 21 lands + 8 lackeys + 4 "stingscroungers" (another hint that you have no idea). But that is the strength of goblins, goblins is not an aggro-combo deck like it used to be. That is one way to play it, but you will see your win percentages drastically increase if you play this deck like an aggro-control deck instead. Which means fetching ringleader instead of SGC. The strength of goblins is it is both an aggressive deck and surprisingly consistent thanks to its manabase and card advantage engine - something a deck like zoo or belcher cannot claim, the two decks that are best at "Aggroing" and "Comboing" in a vacuum. And that is why MonoRed is my preferred style as well, because it increases the decks consistency, which is what I view goblins as - a consistent aggressive deck. The goal is to have your win percentages be as high as possible against the most popular decks, because mathematically that will lead to the best results. Whether these results happen is partially a game of chance, and will factor in lots of other factors like player skill. And playskill is good to have, but the ultimate goal of discussion is deckbuilding and raising win percentages. 21 Lands + 3 SGC is not going to raise win percentages against the most prevalent decks in any meta.

Skirk prospector? To be honest, I think I'd rather play a basic mountain over skirk prospector in any list, especially a list without crafter/sharpshooter.

Gibsonmac
11-16-2009, 06:56 PM
Ringleader or SGC is removal dependent? I've looked back and seen you are also the guy was suggesting root maze and goblin bushwhacker, so do you really know what you are talking about?

I think you have a different playstyle than myself, and normally that would be ok, but that playstyle is suboptimal in the case of consistency. You will have explosive wins and blowouts with the idea of 3 SGC + 21 lands + 8 lackeys + 4 "stingscroungers" (another hint that you have no idea). But that is the strength of goblins, goblins is not an aggro-combo deck like it used to be. That is one way to play it, but you will see your win percentages drastically increase if you play this deck like an aggro-control deck instead. Which means fetching ringleader instead of SGC. The strength of goblins is it is both an aggressive deck and surprisingly consistent thanks to its manabase and card advantage engine - something a deck like zoo or belcher cannot claim, the two decks that are best at "Aggroing" and "Comboing" in a vacuum. And that is why MonoRed is my preferred style as well, because it increases the decks consistency, which is what I view goblins as - a consistent aggressive deck. The goal is to have your win percentages be as high as possible against the most popular decks, because mathematically that will lead to the best results. Whether these results happen is partially a game of chance, and will factor in lots of other factors like player skill. And playskill is good to have, but the ultimate goal of discussion is deckbuilding and raising win percentages. 21 Lands + 3 SGC is not going to raise win percentages against the most prevalent decks in any meta.

Skirk prospector? To be honest, I think I'd rather play a basic mountain over skirk prospector in any list, especially a list without crafter/sharpshooter.

For sure bro, well put... Clueless indeed...

FoulQ
11-16-2009, 06:59 PM
I would just like to clarify that it wasn't so much the 21 land + 3 SGC that bothered me, though I do sort of disagree with that, just the idea of SGC being target #1.

Media314r8
11-17-2009, 02:45 PM
And last, sideboarding: I've read about some of the strategies in Tournament Reports. Obviously you're taking out your goblin body count (or are you? Do you ever take out Vial?). So at what point does, say, does it hurt to add in hate because you're killing your Ringleader rips? This kind of applies for putting Pillars/Thorns in the SB and putting 7-8 cards in. Is it really worth it? Any comments or thoughts? I think I covered all the bits, and of course, thanks for any constructive comments.

If you're bringing in thorns/pillars, (for some reason you think you have a chance against combo) the last thing you give a damn about is making ringleader worse, as CA means jack shit here. Your job is to play T1 lackey/vial, T2 hate, (ideally T3 other hate) and be cheating in dudes all the while. You usually take out ringleaders against decks like combo and ichorid (stingscourgers and incincerators go out first against combo, but are fine against ichorid, as they kill guys on your side of the field and thus remove bridges. Drivers and chieftains are your friends against combo and combo-ish decks like enchantress, ichorid, ect, as drivers and co allow you to kill them before they combo kill you. Ringleaders CA means little when he is a 2/2 haste against their hand of (kill you next turn).

thorin_the_king
11-24-2009, 12:19 PM
hi there, I've been testing this version of mono red goblins and i would like to share it with you:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
18 [UG] Mountain

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis

i'm not going to comment all the cards but the things that maybe come to mind when you're looking into this list.

1 piledriver: i think that with the chieftain addition, warren instigator is much better in this slot than piledriver. Piledriver helps you doing lackey => warchief => piledriver piledriver but in topdeck mode it's useless. On the other hand, the double strike clause of instigator makes it to a lot of damage when paired to chieftain even if blocked you can trade with a lot of creatures. Defending warren is also better than piledriver, so that's why he's only a 1-of for me.

1 Commander + 1 kiki-jiki + 1 crafter instead of 3 commanders: I know landing him with lackey effects its awesome, but there are moments where i need to kill creatures and still be tapped out, so crafter does a good work here. Also the champion abbility is rarely a problem but a good way to reuse matrons or ringleaders if removed. The addition of kiki-jiki does give the deck a lot of useful tricks to do with nearly every creature in our deck (lackeys + lords + matrons + ringleaders + commander...). I rarely regret to do warren => matron => kiki-jiki. I'll have the opportunity to tutor two more times before i attack again and that's huge.

22 lands no ports: i prefer 22 lands than 23 and not using ports cause of the double :r::r: of warrens and the 8 lords. they're easier to play.

Sb i think is pretty common.(anarchy is my repsonse on-color to humility + moat + solitary confinement and so on....)

Feel free to do any comments/suggestions.

Thorin

Gibsonmac
11-24-2009, 01:29 PM
need more SGC.

santeria
11-24-2009, 08:12 PM
1 piledriver: i think that with the chieftain addition, warren instigator is much better in this slot than piledriver. Piledriver helps you doing lackey => warchief => piledriver piledriver but in topdeck mode it's useless. On the other hand, the double strike clause of instigator makes it to a lot of damage when paired to chieftain even if blocked you can trade with a lot of creatures. Defending warren is also better than piledriver, so that's why he's only a 1-of for me.


pssst. piledriver = pro blue.

thorin_the_king
11-25-2009, 05:52 AM
pssst. piledriver = pro blue.

i know it, and does it going to serve me where? in the merfolk matchup. It's one of our easier matchup. if it where pro green or white i would play more

(nameless one)
11-25-2009, 10:03 AM
I agree with more SGC

With more Lackey effects and Vials, its not that hard to get a SGC going.

I am currently running 23 lands and lately have been dissappointed in getting mana flooded. I will try to reduce it to 22.

Heres what I am planning to run right now:

16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Instigator
3 Stingscouger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Siege-Gang Commander

Good enough? Apparently, Lightning Crafter is good. So would anyone advice removing one Goblin Warchief for him?

arebennian
11-25-2009, 10:49 AM
Play 61 cards ;-)

That is the deck I play, changing +1 Insitgator, +1 LC, +1 Piledriver, -Chieftain, -1SGC,

I randomly take out a SGC for Kiki some times.
Instigator into Matron into SGC or Ringleader can leave you sitting there vulnerable for a turn. Searching for Kiki allows you to tap during their EOT for a Matron effect or a Instigator effect.
Saves you from Firespout/WOG if you copy matron. Gives them 2(or 3) Instigators to face next turn.

FoulQ
11-25-2009, 04:32 PM
@ Arbennian: I strongly disagree with what you are saying, playing 61 cards is terrible in an aggro deck.

How is instigator --> matron --> ringleader make you vulnerable? You just helped refill your hands with more goblins from ringleader. You probably shouldn't go for instigator --> matron --> SGC unless in certain situations. One of these situations is definitely NOT when you are expecting firespout/WOG. The game plan against sweeper decks like the rock is to play the shit out of your ringleaders while still applying a lot of presure, as these decks are capable of handling explosive SGC starts a lot of the time. So I don't see what the point of Kiki is from the argument you posted, as you won't need to recover if you are consistently refilling your hand.

Being down and out and topdecking SGC and hard casting it is one of the best feelings in all of Magic. He is often the deck's second/third wind or the tipping point for victory. Kiki can do some busted things but I have to echo the sentiments of the players long gone that he is not worth the spot in this deck.

@ nameless one, that is disappointing that 23 lands led to too much flooding for you. :P I've tried many configurations, and bleh, I'd rather be flooded than screwed with this deck.

Forbiddian
11-25-2009, 04:44 PM
@ Arbennian: I strongly disagree with what you are saying, playing 61 cards is fucking terrible in any deck.

Fixed.

(nameless one)
11-25-2009, 04:49 PM
@ Arbennian: I strongly disagree with what you are saying, playing 61 cards is terrible in an aggro deck.

How is instigator --> matron --> ringleader make you vulnerable? You just helped refill your hands with more goblins from ringleader. You probably shouldn't go for instigator --> matron --> SGC unless in certain situations. One of these situations is definitely NOT when you are expecting firespout/WOG. The game plan against sweeper decks like the rock is to play the shit out of your ringleaders while still applying a lot of presure, as these decks are capable of handling explosive SGC starts a lot of the time. So I don't see what the point of Kiki is from the argument you posted, as you won't need to recover if you are consistently refilling your hand.

Being down and out and topdecking SGC and hard casting it is one of the best feelings in all of Magic. He is often the deck's second/third wind or the tipping point for victory. Kiki can do some busted things but I have to echo the sentiments of the players long gone that he is not worth the spot in this deck.

@ nameless one, that is disappointing that 23 lands led to too much flooding for you. :P I've tried many configurations, and bleh, I'd rather be flooded than screwed with this deck.

I might be doing it wrong but recently, I have a Warren Instigator or Goblin Lackey going but nothing to drop but lands. Also, on late game situations, I hate getting only 1 goblin off of Ringleader.

I'll try to tinker some more and see.

FoulQ
11-25-2009, 05:00 PM
It does happen. I like to mulligan rather aggressively with this deck because I feel there is a large difference between a good and average hand, so that might be a factor as well. In my testing 22 lands works pretty much just fine and plenty of sourcers seem to enjoy it, I just have a natural tendency to play more lands than the norm, particularly in a deck like goblins (ex. I will stick to the 18 standard for tempo thresh). What I'm more curious about is if 16 mountains works for you, that will take some time to actually tell the impact.

If I was to play your list and wanted to fit in crafter I'd probably go -1 Chieftain for him, but that is because I haven't developed the man crush that seems to be the norm for chieftain for some reason. 7-8 haste effects is great in certain matchups but I feel like 6 is enough to reliably get one when you need it, and that the +1/+1 only really makes a difference in the very late game when you will probably be able to acquire one of the two in my preboard list through matron/ringleader/naturally if you really need it. I've said it before but I don't think goblins should place too much emphasis on the combat zone (the +1/+1), as our pile of onslaught block garbage will be quickly outclassed by legitimate legacy combat zone cards.

Forbiddian
11-25-2009, 05:27 PM
It does happen. I like to mulligan rather aggressively with this deck because I feel there is a large difference between a good and average hand, so that might be a factor as well. In my testing 22 lands works pretty much just fine and plenty of sourcers seem to enjoy it, I just have a natural tendency to play more lands than the norm....

A big risk of a choice mulligan is that your hand will downgrade to a forced mulligan.

If you run more land, you can mulligan more often, more safely (because you'll be forced to mulligan to 5 less often), and you're also stuck with fewer forced mulligans to six. The cost is that your deck's endgame is slightly weaker because it has a land instead of a business spell.

It will look like you're taking more optional mulligans (and therefore mulligans), but what you're doing is really just an extension of having, in general, more options and less power.

If you run fewer land, you'll find yourself taking more forced mulligans (obvious mulligans) and fewer choice mulligans because a mulligan is more risky. If you're running more land, one way you can take advantage of it by taking more mulligans off of soft hands.

BreathWeapon
11-25-2009, 11:03 PM
I would just like to clarify that it wasn't so much the 21 land + 3 SGC that bothered me, though I do sort of disagree with that, just the idea of SGC being target #1.

Because it's better to "default" to 1 card all of the time than to admit there's a time and a place for either based on their deck and your hand? Getting Ringleader vs Storm or Ichorid is sub-optimal, getting SGC vs Landstill is sub-optimal ... I digress.

If you've got a better idea for a 1 drop to round the curve, I'm all ears; and fuck yes on 4xScrounger, connecting with Lackey is ridiculous - I'll maximize that play by any means.

FoulQ
11-25-2009, 11:42 PM
@ BreathWeapon, this debate is pointless, in a way. Of course there will be times when fetching SGC is the play to make. But those plays are much less often than when fetching ringleader.

Gibsonmac
11-26-2009, 01:15 AM
I would be inclined to agree with just about everything mr Q says regarding goblins... he's got a shit ton of experience with the deck, probably (most definitely) more than myself... plus he's right about the build... it's solid, don't argue, just try it...

(nameless one)
11-26-2009, 08:07 AM
So keep playing with the 23-land mana base?

And sub Lightning Crafter for Goblin Chieftain?

I actually like Goblin Chieftain because it helps Warren Instigator late game, especially with the double strike. It also helps with math combat sometimes. Oh well, I dont have much experience with Goblins.

Also, what is the general consensus on slots dedicated to Siege-Gang Commander? would 2 be enough in a mono-red build with 7 Lackey effects and Vials or should I bump it up to 3?

Gibsonmac
11-26-2009, 09:06 AM
So keep playing with the 23-land mana base?

And sub Lightning Crafter for Goblin Chieftain?

I actually like Goblin Chieftain because it helps Warren Instigator late game, especially with the double strike. It also helps with math combat sometimes. Oh well, I dont have much experience with Goblins.

Also, what is the general consensus on slots dedicated to Siege-Gang Commander? would 2 be enough in a mono-red build with 7 Lackey effects and Vials or should I bump it up to 3?

no, there are always room for little nuances, and allowances for personal style/meta... but a 21 land base is more than fine in mono red... and I don't think he plays crafter, though I could be wrong, it could be a recent addition... My own differences is I play all 8 hasters and 8 lackey's... mostly because I like the ultra explosiveness of the deck...

Personally, I think 3 SGC is the new hottness... try 3 for a while, it's way consistent for the lackey, even with 7, just try it, then try 2 for a while, see which you prefer

snackfu
11-26-2009, 12:30 PM
I went 4-1 with my build in a small tournament last night, winning a Revised Scrubland. At least the local shop is trying!

Anyway, here is my list:

4 X Aether Vial

4 X Goblin Lackey
4 X Goblin Piledriver
2 X Stingscourger (I couldn't find any more!)
1 X Warren Instigator (All I have, but I'm not sure I would want too many more)
4 X Goblin Warchief
4 X Goblin Matron
4 X Goblin Cheiftain
3 X Gempalm Incinerator
4 X Goblin Ringleader
3 X Siege-gang Commander

17 X Mountain
4 X Wasteland
2 X Rishadan Port

Sideboard:
4 X Thorn of Amethyst
3 X Relic of Progenitus
2 X Tormod's Crypt
2 X Anarchy
2 X Engineered Explosives
1 X Shattering Spree
1 X Goblin Tinkerer

I was originally going to play Dreadstill, but I realized that I never received my Trinket Mages back when I loaned out the deck before. That put me in a tough spot. Since I was loaning out Dredge to one friend, Belcher was out of the question. Another friend had The Burninator, so I was left with the only deck I have kept in my possession since time began.

Round 1: Will playing Elementals
OK, I feel kind of bad pounding little kids. I have talked to some of the younger people in the store and try to explain to them that Legacy is MUCH cheaper than playing Standard. I even offered to help him out and trade him some core goblins. With all the extras that people have floating around, I would say there is at least 2-3 goblin decks that could be put together. Anyway, I win 2-0. He tells me that goblins sure are fast.

Games: 2-0
Matches: 1-0

Round 2: Steve playing burn
Sweet. I get to play against my own deck. Teched out to beat Goblins when everyone used to play them.

Game 1: I roll him off of a nutty draw the turn before he would have killed me. It included Chieftain, Matron for another Cheiftain.

Game 2: He must have seen the most incredible 5 card Burn hand in the history of the world. He had to mull and I had Thorn in my opener. He sees just enough land and topdecks the final one he needs to beat me with Fireblast. Those maindeck Flamebreaks (and the fourth from the side) are pretty good against Goblins.

Game 3: Again I have a turn two Thorn, and again he sees two Flamebreaks to ruin my day. I have him down to 2 life and just need to see anything, but I peel land, land, land, aether vial. That gives him enough time to finish me off.

Games: 3-2
Matches: 1-1

Round 3: Jessen playing Mono-White Stax
Game 1: I have aether vial turn one. He drop a morphed exalted angel turn two, and I add a counter to vial and drop a lackey. He morphs his angel but decides to stay home, but I vial in Stingscourger to clear the way and hilarity ensues.

Game 2: Again I have aether vial turn one. I think this is crucial in this match up because we need to keep up when it comes to permanents to turn their smokestacks against them. Oh, and SGC is pretty good in that regard, too. He manages to throw out an early exalted angel and gets three free swings with it to gain 12 life and put me at eight with a Smokestack in play. I cast Anarchy, nuking his angel and his Oblivion Ring, which gave me a Piledriver. Next turn I sacced a matron or some other inconsequential goblin, dropped my fifth land, and played SGC. The game was over shortly after that.

Games: 5-2
Matches: 2-1

Round 4: Nick playing Legacy teched Hypergenesis Combo
Game 1: My beats are pretty fast despite his turn one suspended Hypergenesis. I just made sure to connect with Lackey into Ringleader twice (TWICE!) to make sure I had a ton of hotness when that Hypergenesis went off.
Game 2: I stick him under a Thorn of Amethyst and Rishadan Port. Meanwhile, I have an active vial. Good times, quick game.

Games: 7-2
Matches: 3-1

Top 4: Derek playing Belcher
Well, it was a good run. I have some sideboard material, but probably not enough to battle this thing. I would put my chances at winning this match at about 2 percent. I wish I had Dreadstill, or I would get paired against the other two players, who were Steve with Burn (Nice job, who says a $60 deck can't compete) and Jamie with Reanimator shenanigans.

Game 1: I make an aether vial, he makes 10 goblins. There was actually a point where I could have actually gone lackey from vial, Cheiftain hardcast, SGC from lackey had I known that I would topdeck a lackey and not automatically upped the counter on my vial. Oh well.

Game 2: Well, I am going first and my opening grip contains a Thorn of Amethyst and an Engineered Explosives, so I keep and lead Mountain, go. He draws his turn one, drops a Lion's Eye Diamond and passes the turn! I drop Thorn on turn two and he has to pick it up to see what it does. Frowns. I storm over with hoards of angry green men while he tries to figure out how to pay to play his Lotus Petals.

Game 3: I mull down to five (two totally unkeepable hands) and keep a hand with 3 X mounains, 1 X Goblin Lackey, 1 X Thorn of Amethyst. He starts ramping up on turn one and casts Manamorphose, frowns. Another manamorphose, frowns. Tinder Wall, go. I drop Lackey on my turn one. He draws for turn two, sighs, says go. I drop Thorn of Amethyst and swing with Lackey, pretending I forgot to drop something before passing the turn. I thought it was going to be Lackey beats for 20 turns because I continued to draw mountains, but eventually SGC showed up to hasten my opponent's departure.

Games: 9-3
Matches: 4-1

Final: Jamie playing Reanimator packing Iona, Shield of Emeria.
Jamie defeated Steve with my burn build in 3 games. In the last one, he got off a duress and two Hymn to Tourach's, which wrecks that deck. We agree to split the prize. he takes 6 Zendikar packs and I take the Scrubland. What the hell, I am slowly trying to accumulate the duals again after selling off my complete set a few years back. I figured it was a good choice because if he gets Iona out, I am pretty much screwed. Plus, Reanimator has that random luck factor where it can be absolutely unstoppable.

We do decide to play it out for fun anyways, and I win 2-1. Relics and Tormod's Crypts are some good, as I won games 2 and 3.

Overall thoughts:

I am not sure if I like 23 lands or 22. I would like to run 22.5.

Goblin Chieftain is a bomb.


Warren Instigator is good when he is good, but I often found I didn't have enough goblins to drop with him. The double red is a bit of a bugger as well. Lackey is strictly better, obviously.


Everyone should play 3 Siege-Gang Commanders. Especially if you are running any number of Instigators.


Goblin Stingscourger was much better than I gave it credit for. I will be adding a third.


What the heck. I know this wasn't a huge tournament for a wonderful prize, but I think we get much more out of reading tournament reports rather than simply pontificating and theorizing. In fact, real play against real situations and random decks is sometimes even better than focused playtesting, although playtesting clearly has a huge and important place in learning to pilot a deck.

FoulQ
11-26-2009, 12:36 PM
@ nameless one, I don't think you should copy my build if you don't like my build. In reality I'm just another goblins player. Do what works for you. Every meta is different so that is another huge factor. If 21/22 land fits your personal playstyle, so be it, play that. The same applies to the chieftain count. Play what wins (but make sure you have an effective way of judging what wins).

I think your deck is past being suboptimal (such as not playing instigator) and you can focus on tweaking it to your personal playstyle.

Not to say I don't advocate for my build and specifically the 23 land/3 SGC setup. I really enjoy mine.

Gibsonmac
11-26-2009, 10:01 PM
+1, meta should account for the tweaks to the 'standard' list... as such, the nuances might differ slightly (such as the 2 flex spots in TT, or whatev) according to what you see on a regular basis...

that being said, I think you'd be a fool not to run Instigator, at least 3x

Happy turkey day everyone!!

keys
11-27-2009, 01:17 AM
that being said, I think you'd be a fool not to run Instigator, at least 3x

Happy turkey day everyone!!

Instigator resembles piledriver as much as he does lackey. With extra lords on the table he's just silly.

Joe_C
11-27-2009, 08:59 AM
Ive dropped to 2 instigator in my list also running only 2 chieftain main. instigator seems to be clogging my hand, I also run 22 land with the full 4 wasteland and 3 ports in my deck. I run 3 SCG and no tricky creatures like Kiki, or crafter so I can run 3 fanatic main. At least for this upcoming tournament in RI where I expect alot of Ichorid, bant survival and zoo. Fanatic is still really decent in my opinion. In the mirror since most lists have dropped him I think I would have the upper hand by running him.

Gibsonmac
11-27-2009, 08:59 AM
Instigator resembles piledriver as much as he does lackey. With extra lords on the table he's just silly.

very true, I think instigator is much better than piledriver, he's a lackey that can beat down like mad.... so cutting piledrivers if you need room for instigator is a good idea

Cyrus
11-27-2009, 09:05 PM
Usually I'm having this huge problem against zoo: lackeys never do anything. I rarely get that t1 lackey t2 stingscourge their nacatl play, and often they prefer to leave mana open for a bolt. Is it ok to side the lackeys out? And by the way, how good is Lightning Bolt in the deck? I guess that'd give us a boost against zoo.

Humphrey
11-27-2009, 09:13 PM
Id agree with cutting piledriver for instigator but i think this should be only a single since piledriver is still nuts with warchief/ringleader stuff.
i also run the 2/2 split instigator/chieftain. maybe ill add a third chieftain and cut 1 warchief. not sure yet.

also i decided to throw leyline out of the board. it wasnt as good as expected. but i like planar void atm. very good against canadian :)

current list:

// Lands
3 [B] Badlands
2 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
6 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [6E] Swamp (3)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad

// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
SB: 1 [MOR] Earwig Squad
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [R] Goblin King
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

FoulQ
11-27-2009, 09:52 PM
Usually I'm having this huge problem against zoo: lackeys never do anything. I rarely get that t1 lackey t2 stingscourge their nacatl play, and often they prefer to leave mana open for a bolt. Is it ok to side the lackeys out? And by the way, how good is Lightning Bolt in the deck? I guess that'd give us a boost against zoo.

There was a debate about this very idea like 40-80 pages back in the thread or something. Search for it, the whole debate is around a page long. I know Media likes to side out lackeys but I am personally against it.

Media314r8
11-29-2009, 11:25 PM
There was a debate about this very idea like 40-80 pages back in the thread or something. Search for it, the whole debate is around a page long. I know Media likes to side out lackeys but I am personally against it.

I think what was determined from that mess was:

Most always side out 'gators if you run them: unlike vs thresh, they will likely not keep your opponent's small number of threats on defense, as zoo runs 20ish creatures as opposed to 10sih, and zoo will likely have removal for them if they would otherwise connect. I side out lackeys on the draw, and keep them in on the play, as waste +lackey can force a trade with nacatl, and goblins' manabase is more stable than zoo's, so the tempo and manabase hit for them in that situation is pretty huge. IMO, whether or not you side out lackeys and when is just like the 'correct' number of drivers/scourgers/gators/war marshals/lands in the main: It depends on your meta, playstyle, and preference. There are many viable goblins builds, and thus there are hardly ever any building/playing/sideboarding strategies that are 'always correct' other than "Do not cut lackies, vials, matrons, or ringleaders from the MB. Ever."

(nameless one)
12-01-2009, 03:23 PM
I am currently running the following list:

16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 AEther Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander

1 Open Slot


This built feels a little slower than my pre-Zendikar Goblins but it is more resilient and more explosive. Although, with my current playtesting, The deck has been studdering at the last 2 damages. I actually added Lightning Crafter to deal with this, as well as it adds resilency as I will be championing 'comes into play' goblins.

I havent really thoroughly playtested with Lightning Crafter but he seems to do the job. I am split with Kiki-Jiki on this slot because he could also pull of tricks in the field, such as incoming 'CIP' goblins. He does suck when is all by himself, but so does Goblin Piledriver.

I was thinking of reducing Goblin Warchief to 3 to add another Siege-Gang Commander as Goblin Chieftain can also provide haste. I also dont might Siege-Gang Commander because my list is running 7-lackey effects and 4 Vials and they provide good card advantage late game. Not to mention that they can go for the last 2 damage reach.

So, should I run Lightning Crafter/Kiki-Jiki/Siege-Gang Commander on that last open slot? I used to run 23 Mountains and found that I do not mind having 22 Mountains. Also, is it worth to run 3 Warchiefs and 3 Chieftains (-1 Warchief) in favor of Siege-Gang Commander?

And has anyone tried Valakut or the CIPT hurts its chances?

1maarten1
12-01-2009, 04:07 PM
I am currently running the following list:

16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 AEther Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander

1 Open Slot


This built feels a little slower than my pre-Zendikar Goblins but it is more resilient and more explosive. Although, with my current playtesting, The deck has been studdering at the last 2 damages. I actually added Lightning Crafter to deal with this, as well as it adds resilency as I will be championing 'comes into play' goblins.

I havent really thoroughly playtested with Lightning Crafter but he seems to do the job. I am split with Kiki-Jiki on this slot because he could also pull of tricks in the field, such as incoming 'CIP' goblins. He does suck when is all by himself, but so does Goblin Piledriver.

I was thinking of reducing Goblin Warchief to 3 to add another Siege-Gang Commander as Goblin Chieftain can also provide haste. I also dont might Siege-Gang Commander because my list is running 7-lackey effects and 4 Vials and they provide good card advantage late game. Not to mention that they can go for the last 2 damage reach.

So, should I run Lightning Crafter/Kiki-Jiki/Siege-Gang Commander on that last open slot? I used to run 23 Mountains and found that I do not mind having 22 Mountains. Also, is it worth to run 3 Warchiefs and 3 Chieftains (-1 Warchief) in favor of Siege-Gang Commander?

And has anyone tried Valakut or the CIPT hurts its chances?

run chieftain #4 it rocks tits

Cyrus
12-01-2009, 05:07 PM
Valakut seems awful. You must reach 7 lands in play or else the effect won't trigger; you open yourself to nonbasic hate; it comes into play tapped. Seems fucking awful.

(nameless one)
12-02-2009, 08:11 AM
run chieftain #4 it rocks tits

The 4th Chieftain is actually in my SB, along with a lone Liege (I only own one as of now).

Question: could Blood Moon actually help with Zoo m/u? Especially if its backed up with Goblin King?

Cyrus
12-02-2009, 10:08 AM
The 4th Chieftain is actually in my SB, along with a lone Liege (I only own one as of now).

Question: could Blood Moon actually help with Zoo m/u? Especially if its backed up with Goblin King?


Goblin King isn't really all that good, Mogg War Marshals are better than that against zoo. Btw, I'm running this list now:


// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
18 [ZEN] Mountain (3)

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

Any constructive criticism? I'm really insecure about cutting piledriver down to 1, 2 seems like a decent number.

ScatmanX
12-02-2009, 11:06 AM
list

1 Piledriver is Fine. But run 2 if you have nothing better to put in.
What do you side in-out agains't zoo with that list?

Cyrus
12-02-2009, 11:17 AM
Usually I go -3 Warren Instigator -2 Piledriver -1 Gempalm Incinerator -1 Chieftain, +3 Mogg War Marshal, +3 Pyrokinesis, +1 Boartusk liege.

About the piledriver slot: I'm not that big of a fan of Warren Instigator. 8 Lackey effects feel like too much, and sometimes I need more than 1 Piledriver, in case one of them gets StPed or something like that.

FoulQ
12-02-2009, 01:37 PM
@ Cyrus, I would consider boarding out a Siege-Gang Commander because 3 can be very clunky against zoo. It's great, but seeing more than one, especially early, is absolutely horrible. I would keep the gempalm in because it is very important for killing grim lavamancer and helps you make the transition from defensive to offensive. It's also good when your opponent casts a board sweeper post-sb.

I'm personally doing -3 Instigator, -3 Piledriver, -1 Siege-Gang Commander, +5 aggro hate (3/2 Pyrokinesis/Jitte), +2 Goblin Chieftain. I think it is very important to have a focused attack plan against the deck and that factors into my boarding decisions here. I believe that playing against zoo takes a little more precision and "looking at the forest rather than the individual trees" to reliably pull out wins. Goblin Chieftain makes ringleader and stingscourger 3/3, the two creatures that are ass-savers in the matchup, and 3/3 is a very holy number in this matchup: nacatl, ape, lavamancer, pridemage (exalted or no), and also helps you transition from defensive to offensive. That said I think it is still very important to not fall into combat trick traps. I'm still undecided if I'd rather have Chieftain than piledrivers/instigators, but right now I think it is working okay.

ScatmanX
12-05-2009, 01:39 PM
So, I've been looking at some lists lately, and saw 2 things that cought my attention, and wonder if anyone used already:

-2 Lists in Top 8 with 3 Pyroknesis maindeck.
Could it be that good? I mean, if you have a Zoo/Goblins/Folk metagame, it coul be a nice call.

-1 List with 4xCaller of the Claw SB. I really liked the idea. You'd had to be Rgx, but thats not a big problem. I can't wait to test it. Have anyone ever did test this?

Cyrus
12-07-2009, 07:48 PM
Some time ago people used to run pyrokinesis main, I believe, in aggro infested metas. If that's your case, go for it. Just remember: against almost everything that isn't Tribal or Zoo it's pure card disadvantage: Can't kill a stalker, a 'nought, a goose with it. It can kill goyfs, but that's a 2:1. About Caller of the Claw: seems interesting, although Boartusk Lieges can handle the most used board sweepers (Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Firespout) without the need of leaving mana open on their turn and it also happens to solve Engineered Plague, something that Caller of the Claw doesn't help in any way. Caller of the Claw is clearly superior against Wrath of God, so if you expect to face some Landstill decks it's a nice option.

FoulQ
12-07-2009, 09:22 PM
I tested Caller of the Claw a longass time ago, but not very extensively, because it was horrible.

MD Kinesis is not worth the gamble. If you want to metagame against aggro that extensively you might as well play tendrils or something.

shadowhunter483
12-09-2009, 06:20 PM
So I've been working on a mono red list and I would like some critique on it.

// Lands
14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Skirk Prospector
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Gempalm Incinerator

// Spells
4 AEther Vial

// Sideboard
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Stingscourger
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 shattering spree
1 tormods crypt
1 relic of progenitus

Media314r8
12-09-2009, 08:36 PM
So I've been working on a mono red list and I would like some critique on it.

(list)

I would cut the skirk prospectors all together. Unless you're trying to have some sort of cute insta-win combo with kiki-jiki, skirk, and lightning crafter, he seems like he's just a way to exile bridges and a rite-of flame/proactive 'solution' for daze. Add the last two chieftains to the main if you're looking for more explosive power.

This isn't 2003, MD sharpshooters are not needed, and feel like 'danger of cool things' with the prospectors and the war marshals. For every time that you manage to use war marshal as a bolt and a rite of flame to chain into more marshals and ringleaders with a sharpshooter in play, there will be 20 times where sharpshooter feels like the worst three mana you've ever spent.

You should run at least two siege-gangs as he still wins games by himself.

Cut the fetches, all of them. There is no reason to run them in a mono deck without something like nocturnus (T2) or tombstalker (MBA) to abuse it. It changes your life total by 1/20 your initial value, and thins your deck by improving the odds ~2% of drawing a non-land, which does come up until turn 13 or something absurd on average. Not worth the vulnerability to stifle or life lost against zoo/red decks. If you don;t believe me, I'm sure an the search function or an adept can point you towards the saint who ran the odds at some point in this thread.

Joe_C
12-10-2009, 12:21 PM
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pithing Needle

This is a list I intend to play this weekend. I expect to see zoo, bant survival, ichorid in numbers. Any thoughts on the maindeck or board to assist in these matchups? Im comfortable with my playing ability of the deck, but I unfortunately do not have tons of free time to playtest against these decks. I know what I need to win the matchups, just wondering if there were any better board options or plans of attack that have worked for others that have played more extensively against them

Moosedog
12-10-2009, 12:50 PM
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pithing Needle

This is a list I intend to play this weekend. I expect to see zoo, bant survival, ichorid in numbers. Any thoughts on the maindeck or board to assist in these matchups? Im comfortable with my playing ability of the deck, but I unfortunately do not have tons of free time to playtest against these decks. I know what I need to win the matchups, just wondering if there were any better board options or plans of attack that have worked for others that have played more extensively against them

In my experience relic doesn't do much against ichorid and I find it underwhelming against the other matchups you expect I would go crypt. Also I found REB could be something better, when i boarded them in they didn't really do much for me..with 3 SGC I would try and get another mountain in there, I personally like 23. and I like to get the third piledriver in there as well. I like the 2 main deck fanatics I'm been thinking about it myself because of all the ichorid I see.

Humphrey
12-10-2009, 02:19 PM
what about the B-Splash for Weirdings and Planar Void SB

sligh16
12-10-2009, 05:21 PM
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pithing Needle

This is a list I intend to play this weekend. I expect to see zoo, bant survival, ichorid in numbers. Any thoughts on the maindeck or board to assist in these matchups? Im comfortable with my playing ability of the deck, but I unfortunately do not have tons of free time to playtest against these decks. I know what I need to win the matchups, just wondering if there were any better board options or plans of attack that have worked for others that have played more extensively against them

I would cut 1 stingscourger and some incinerators to run 3-4 lightning bolts. I know it's not a goblin, but against zoo and ichorid is great.

Joe_C
12-10-2009, 05:34 PM
I would cut 1 stingscourger and some incinerators to run 3-4 lightning bolts. I know it's not a goblin, but against zoo and ichorid is great.

true, but I can fetch a stingcourger to bounce back a goyf or a rhox war monk, bolt isnt likely to kill goyf on its own. I had run bolt in the board to run against zoo, but kinesis and some proper mana disruption can handle that match, its all about being the control deck in that matchup. Against ichorid the 2 fanatics, relic, pyrokinesis, and needle should be enough to get me there. Stingscourger is good in this matchup too of course. Incinerator is really good, even moreso since I am running a few more 1 drops than some other lists(fanatic). I would run a fourth, but the 3/3 split of scourger/incinerator has been playing pretty solid for me. REB in the board is to handle war monk and any other pesky blue cards that may get in my way. Other than crypt being able to be used on turn 1 I cant say its strictly better than relic for what I intend it to do.

Bardo
12-12-2009, 01:42 PM
Hi All,

The Goblins thread is bloated beyond belief. The mods/admins are reviewing which threads need a re-boot and Gobs is one of the ones we've identified.

Does anyone have an interest in writing a new OP for Goblins? It needn't be long, but should cover the basic shell, common cards, debateable cards, proven lists, maybe a quickie match-up guide. Doesn't need to be any longer than 1000 words, though it can be as long as you'd like.

If you're interested, please PM me and tell me why you're the best person for the gig.

- Staff