[DTB] Vial Goblins [Archive] - Page 16

Joe_C

12-13-2009, 08:35 AM

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pithing Needle

So I did play this list yesterday. My day went like this:

r1:Zoo win 2-1 (game 3 went to turns and I was still at 20 when the game ended :laugh: )
r2: Ichorid win 2-1(g3 I topdeck Relic like a champ when I absolutely need it to save my ass after wastelanding his 2 lands, reb'ing a moeba, leaving him at no lands and 1 zombie token on board and me with 3 goblins)
r3:Brassman Counterbalance-0-2. Brassman is good, i almost had him game 1 until he trinket mages for needle on my 2x vial which was keeping me in the game
r4:bant survival(teammate)- 2-1. We have to play it out so game 1 he ends up topdecking loyal retainers after thinking he was out of the game. Game 2 I see triple relic and keep war monk off the board with pyrokinesis and get there. game 3 is really tight with me doing some nasty things my last turn to Mike, with 2x chieftain on board, stingscourger, schenannigans
r5: survival- 0-2: he gets way ahead like Joe B does, he drops goyfs like its his job, even after boarding he still gets way ahead game 2 with 2 loxodon hierach.
r6: teammate: no way we can get in, we draw and hang for a bit then head home..

the only card I never boarded in at all was the 4th chieftain. That may become a tormod's or something something.... All in all the deck felt good, wasnt really anything I could have done differently in the games I lost, although I hit some pretty lame ringleader flips all day :rolleyes:

Oh, and fanatic, wins games. No joke

snackfu

12-13-2009, 09:52 AM

It sounds like Pyrokinesis was key for you in at least one game. How did it perform for you? Is it still good enough against bigger creatures?

Joe_C

12-13-2009, 12:57 PM

It sounds like Pyrokinesis was key for you in at least one game. How did it perform for you? Is it still good enough against bigger creatures?

well I pointed out the nailing of war monk since that little bastard really sucks if he stays in play. But pyro also wiped out multiple creatures against zoo (knight of the reliquary, goyf, pridemage) so it indeed does its job. Being free makes it amazing clearing the way for early lackey/instigator

lillelassie

12-15-2009, 12:19 PM

Regarding Ports being less usefull now and with the addition of Warren Instigator, do you think its worth it to play a single Pendelhaven? It seems rather good to pump your Warren Instigators with it.. It also pumps Lackey's, Matron's and to a lesser extent Fanatic's, Mogg War Marshall's and Sharpshooter's.. It doesn't work with a Goblin Chieftain though does it? - but it can pump before he enters play. It can also work under a Plague or whatever - making a 2/2 a 2/3..

Another card getting better is Goblin Burrows - It obviously has some good synergies with Warren Instigator and also Goblin Chieftain, since it makes it easier to trade with Goyfs, when you suddenly have 4/x or 5/x goblins.. The more I think of it, this card is likely going to be more usefull than 2 Ports, with all the Goyfs running around...

Man even Teetering Peeks makes sense since it makes red - or send a Lackey, Instigator or Piledriver over flying with a Soaring Seacliff?

To. Many. Good. Options. Regarding. Nonbasic lands. Brain. Hurts!

FoulQ

12-15-2009, 12:41 PM

@ lilelassie, I think you are misunderstanding the role that waste/port plays in this deck.

It gives the deck an entirely new dimension that other aggro decks do not possess. Zoo does not have waste/port + vial. Merfolk has stifle instead of port, and it is one of the lasting hallmarks of the deck.

Putting in lands like goblin burrows and pendelhaven are not going to help you win very much, and only look cool in a vaccuum. Getting a 1/1 to be a 2/3 will do very little for what goblins needs to do to win. However, waste/porting can definitely get you wins.

I've said it once but I think it is very important. Goblins cannot focus too much on the combat zone. Other decks with stronger, less synergistic cards will outclass this deck everytime. We need to focus on our superior synergy and the fact that we are an early pressure deck with a strong card advantage engine in the late game. This forces our opponent into role confusion and makes it so they both have to deal with early pressure and not let us get to our late game engine, a burdening task for how most legacy decks are designed as "aggro-control" decks.

In testing, sometimes with 4 Instigator/Chieftain, I honestly don't find the 2 more damage to be that marvelous. It comes up, but getting a 2/2 doublestriker active on turn 3 that requires two cards isn't nearly as exciting as getting a 3/3 (nacatl) active on turn 1/2.

Looking at stuff like tarmogoyf in a vaccuum I believe to be very flawed reasoning. The deck has many reliable answers to goyf, and yet it still struggles with him sometimes. It isn't because tarmogoyf is a 4/5 for 1G, it is because the supporting shell around him is able to deal with our early pressure and stop our late game bombs from happening. Tarmogoyf is but one piece of this puzzle. What rishadan port does is help us resolve our bombs and stop their bombs that stop our own from occurring. Legacy is a very bomby format, and port/waste help address this. Goblin Burrows and Pendelhaven do not accomplish this at all. It doesn't address any of the problems we are actually having. Sure, it makes it easier to trade with goyf, but we have had 5/2 piledrivers and even warren weirding now for multiple years. It is clear that trading or even removing goyfs is not the core fundamental problem this deck has with goyf-based decks.

The combat zone is not where this deck's strength lies. It never has. Lackey is a 1/1 for R. Warchief is a 2/2 for 1RR. Matron, 1/1 for 2R, and so forth. Those are miserable p/t for the mana cost.

I'll make a weird and terrible analogy. If we are on a ship, and their is a large crack in the hull where water is flowing into, goblin burrows and pendelhaven are like tiny corks trying to fix the problem. Instead of trying to stop the flooding, we should learn how to breathe the water that is coming into our ship. Rishadan Port is like scuba gear.

Also, I really doubt peaks/seacliff would be any good at all, as CITP has always been absolutely killer. Unless the card had an absolutely balls-busting effect, I don't think any CITP land will ever work for this deck, as "curving out" is the second most scary thing you can say in a tournament report besides "after my lackey connected" (that's from something but I don't know what).

And Pendelhaven will not stop plague.

Also ports are less useful in today's metagame because chieftain + warchief + instigator makes getting to RR very important, and port produces colorless. Also, because it isn't as strong against aggro decks, which have been popular lately. All of the lands you suggested produce colorless or non-red mana as well, except teetering peaks, but as discussed, CITP is just way too crippling.

Moosedog

12-15-2009, 01:43 PM

Rishadan Port is like scuba gear.

haha awesome analogy, and good point.

lillelassie

12-15-2009, 01:46 PM

FoulQ: What you argue makes sense I guess.. Though there are some counterintuitive things or at least some contradictions I would like to point out. It is on a bit more theoritical level, and about trying to understand the Legazy format as of today.

1) Saying goblins dont really care about the combat zone may very well be true - and so may your argument about Port stopping bombs or locking decks down in combination with Wasteland. If this Goblin philosophy holds true isn't it actually terrible and counterintuitive not to run 4 Rishadan Ports? and then simply cut the seemlingly unnecessary Goblin Chieftains and to a lesser extent Instigators? I'm wondering why Merfolk plays Mutavault over Port? Is it simply cause they are forced to play Standstill to gain card advantage?

2) After saying the above things about the importance of Port you go on to negligate its importance next. Since the printing of Tarmogoyf and the general lets-make-creatures-bigger-crack-that-Wizards-smokes, one could argue that the combat zone was simply not important in the old days, but in todays more aggresive and creature oriented format, we are simply forced to acknowledge the combat zone and act accordingly? Simply put: goblins didn't need to be good in combat before - now they are more or less forced to it. You said that Ports are becoming weaker cause of all the agrro. I'm not saying that Goblin Burrows is better in an agroformat. But in theory isn't it better than Port in the combat zone, which every format (except Vintage) resolve around these days?

I'm not entirely sure what I try to say with all this. Just some general thoughts. Do you guys think the format change forces goblins to compete in the combat zone? and FoulQ perhaps clarify for me the contradiction of saying Port is good, combat zone is bad, and then sacrificing Ports to play lords. And then later in your post saying Port is in fact not that good in todays format :)

Artos

12-15-2009, 02:15 PM

FoulQ's point about not winning in combat is we are not going to make our little dudes big enough to kill Tarmogoyfs. That's not how we deal with them. We deal with them by bouncing them with Stingscourger, cycling Gempalm Incinerator, Pyrokinesis, or just having more goblins than they have blockers.

Warren Instigator is good because he lets us cheat mana and play more goblins for free, and assuming you have a lord out, can actually threaten to kill a goyf. The problem isn't the goyf, it's the pyroclasm. Port and Wasteland help keep them off the red mana to play it, or slow them down enough that we can get to our ridiculous card advantage engine of Goblin Ringleader/Matron/Warchief.

Goblins doesn't win like a traditional aggro deck. Goblins wins by doing something almost impossible in red - out card-advantaging the opponent. Sure it's possible to pull out a turn 3 win with the nut draw, but that's not the point of the deck.

FoulQ

12-15-2009, 05:16 PM

1) Saying goblins dont really care about the combat zone may very well be true - and so may your argument about Port stopping bombs or locking decks down in combination with Wasteland. If this Goblin philosophy holds true isn't it actually terrible and counterintuitive not to run 4 Rishadan Ports? and then simply cut the seemlingly unnecessary Goblin Chieftains and to a lesser extent Instigators? I'm wondering why Merfolk plays Mutavault over Port? Is it simply cause they are forced to play Standstill to gain card advantage?

It does pain me not to run 4 rishadan ports. I have loved them for a very long time. It is one of my favorite cards in the entire game. However, instigator and chieftain in some combination have proven to be very important in this deck (chieftain mainly for additional haste effects, but the +1/+1 can be handy sometimes). This is because of the RR cost in the card, and because instigator is significantly worse if he can't be cast on turn two. Which is why I think 16 red sources is not optimal, 17 is pushing it, and 18 is probably the best for amount of red sources - IN builds running these two cards (which many seem to advocate here).

I'm not very knowledgeable about merfolk. But I know they can't go first turn lackey, second turn port like goblins. Their pressure becomes insurmountable more in the mid game rather than early and late. Plus, many lists have stifle to complement wasteland. About mutavault, I think it may be marginally playable in goblins. I have tested it and it is not terrible. However, in merfolk, it is obviously a beast, especially with standstill.

2) After saying the above things about the importance of Port you go on to negligate its importance next. Since the printing of Tarmogoyf and the general lets-make-creatures-bigger-crack-that-Wizards-smokes, one could argue that the combat zone was simply not important in the old days, but in todays more aggresive and creature oriented format, we are simply forced to acknowledge the combat zone and act accordingly? Simply put: goblins didn't need to be good in combat before - now they are more or less forced to it. You said that Ports are becoming weaker cause of all the agrro. I'm not saying that Goblin Burrows is better in an agroformat. But in theory isn't it better than Port in the combat zone, which every format (except Vintage) resolve around these days?

I don't think they are forced to be good in combat today. They can still focus on creatures, but not the combat zone, like Artos pointed out in the post above me.

I'm not entirely dismissing goblin burrows. I think you should test it, specifically against merfolk, zoo, and the mirror. Unfortunately I'm dealing with finals and haven't had much time for goblins this past week. My manabase is 17 mountain, 4 waste, 2 port, with port acting as waste 5-6 basically. It's a very tough analysis to say whether we should run port or not, and that's why I'm not nailing it down as "yes you should to stop bombs" or "no you should not because of an aggro metagame," because it is very much based not only on the local metagame but personal playstyle as well.

I believe that what we need to focus on against most (most) of the aggro decks in the format is our inevitability in the matchup, thanks to ringleader + matron. This is partly why I advocate for a 3rd siege-gang commander (increase our density of late game bombs and therefore our inevitability against this aggro metagame) and 23 lands (ensure that we get the chance to cast our higher-end spells, which is very important in the aggro mirror when they are casting consistent little dudes and we cast ringleaders).

I'm not entirely sure what I try to say with all this. Just some general thoughts. Do you guys think the format change forces goblins to compete in the combat zone? and FoulQ perhaps clarify for me the contradiction of saying Port is good, combat zone is bad, and then sacrificing Ports to play lords. And then later in your post saying Port is in fact not that good in todays format :)

I think recent changes makes ringleader + matron even more important. Now that we have inevitability against so many matchups in the format, unlike what it was like in the past with landstill/survival/countertop etc, we have to adjust our playstyle against these decks more than anything. I think port is a metagame decision in today's format, not necessarily good or bad, I don't like to classify cards as so black or white. It really depends on your instigator/chieftain count, how important you feel it is to consistently be able to cast your instigator/chieftains (basically are they extremely essential to resolve early with your playstyle), and of course your metagame. And the reason for chieftain is because haste effects in goblins are ridiculously powerful no matter which way you look at it.

arebennian

12-15-2009, 09:29 PM

Of all of the lands mentioned, Soaring Seacliff seems like an interesting option. With 7-8 Lackey effects the ability to soar over blockers, which the opponent believes will block the offending goblin, seems interesting.

FoulQ

12-15-2009, 10:10 PM

Media314r8

12-15-2009, 10:37 PM

If lackey connections were what made this deck strong, there would be lists with 4 stingscourgers and 4 warren weirdings.

But I've almost never seen those two really in connection with each other. It is more of the threat of lackies and your opponent forced to answer them than anything else.

I would have to test it to say with real confidence, but I mean cmon, when has a CITP land been good for a legacy aggro deck? Or practically any legacy deck?

While I agree that making lackey connect is not the primary way to win, and thus should not be overly-stressed, I think this idea may have some merit, at least in some mono-red builds running 4 lacky and 4 gators.

Think of seacliffs not as a EtB tapped land, but rather as a one mana, un-counter-able, cantripping jump that takes up a land slot and only taps for colorless (unless you run EE in the SB or something). Shadow rift saw play in 'tog, and a super-aggro mono red list with 4-ofs lackey, gator, and driver may have found a colorless land to play over port. I agree that the EtB tapped is a kick in the nuts, but uncounterable-jumping a driver in a dedicated aggro goblins list without having to cut goblin slots is appealing to my Timmy, and my Spike is at least interested. I will have to throw together a mono-red list with cliffs and test it on MWS in my free time over the next few days. Something like:

24 lands (not changing the number of red sources from most mono-red lists running 22 lands - 4 waste, 2 port)

16 mountain
4 wasteland
4 soaring seacliff (counting as half a land, as it is functionally a spell that happens to stick around to tap for colorless on following turns)

4 goblin lackey
4 warren instigator
4 goblin piledriver
2 stingscourger
2 mogg war marshal
4 goblin chieftain
2 golbin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
2 siege-gang commander

4 aether vial

Justin

12-16-2009, 09:36 AM

While I agree that making lackey connect is not the primary way to win, and thus should not be overly-stressed, I think this idea may have some merit, at least in some mono-red builds running 4 lacky and 4 gators.

Think of seacliffs not as a EtB tapped land, but rather as a one mana, un-counter-able, cantripping jump that takes up a land slot and only taps for colorless (unless you run EE in the SB or something). Shadow rift saw play in 'tog, and a super-aggro mono red list with 4-ofs lackey, gator, and driver may have found a colorless land to play over port. I agree that the EtB tapped is a kick in the nuts, but uncounterable-jumping a driver in a dedicated aggro goblins list without having to cut goblin slots is appealing to my Timmy, and my Spike is at least interested. I will have to throw together a mono-red list with cliffs and test it on MWS in my free time over the next few days. Something like:

24 lands (not changing the number of red sources from most mono-red lists running 22 lands - 4 waste, 2 port)

16 mountain
4 wasteland
4 soaring seacliff (counting as half a land, as it is functionally a spell that happens to stick around to tap for colorless on following turns)

4 goblin lackey
4 warren instigator
4 goblin piledriver
2 stingscourger
2 mogg war marshal
4 goblin chieftain
2 golbin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
2 siege-gang commander

4 aether vial

This is the most interesting idea that I've seen for Goblins in a long time. You are essentially swaping out removal for evasion. The uncounterability of soaring seacliff makes it good against decks like thresh and countertop. Although it weakens your deck against other matchups (such as those with big creatures) and is worse at getting creatures off the board.

I do have a couple problems with your list. There is a strong consensus that four warchiefs are mandatory. War marshals are cool, but they don't have a place in today's goblins. Your deck already has enough two-drops anyway. I would cut chieftains before I cut warchiefs. You also have six ways to give a lackey/gator a path (2 stingscourgers and 4 cliffs). You might up this number a bit to 7 or 8 to improve your chances of connecting.

I'd recommend:
-2 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Goblin Chieftain

+2 Goblin Warchief
+1 Stingscourger
+1 Gempalm Incinerator (it's nice to have this as a one-of that you can grab with a Matron when you need it)

I'm not sure if Soaring Seacliff improves the deck, but it certainly seems worth testing.

Tacosnape

12-16-2009, 10:11 AM

arebennian

12-16-2009, 10:39 AM

The problem with Soaring Seacliff is that the most common time you'd want to drop it is on turn 2 to jump a Lackey. Goblins only runs 8 1-drops. Meaning unless you were fortunate enough to get 2 Lackeys or a Lackey/Vial in your opening hand, you lose your turn two play as a result. Meaning if you drop Seacliff and then your Lackey gets STP'd/Bolted/Whatever, you basically lost your 2-drop as a result.

Dropping it as your 3-drop on an Instigator isn't a whole lot better, as by three you want to be dropping Chiefs/Matrons.

Wow.
Look at that.
I dropped Sea Cliffs and my Matron magically appeared on the Battlefield, and brought a SGC with it!

Gee I wish I could use all three of my mana this turn, guess I'll stick down that other decent 2 drop <cough> Piledriver <cough> in my hand.

Sorry to be a dick Taco, but the situation you note isn't as bad as you make it sound.
A playtest with 8 Lackey effects could lead to some interesting results.

GUnit

12-16-2009, 10:54 AM

Soaring Seacliff seems awfully greedy to me. This deck's efficiency and consistency is what makes it a powerhouse. Diluting both of those qualities with cute tricks is dangerous, especially when the benefit typically won't be that impressive.

arebennian

12-16-2009, 11:15 AM

Look. I'm not totally championing Cliffs, but I think it warrents testing.

FoulQ

12-16-2009, 11:24 AM

I'm coming in defense of arebennian.

I just tested seacliffs for about two hours on MWS, and an hour earlier by myself, using the list suggested by Justin.

First turn lackey, second turn seacliffs was actually pretty nuts. The main reason for this is that your opponent never sees it coming, and it totally screws them over.

This is similar to how stingscourger used to be, when opponents never heard of the card, and it totally surprised them, and made lackey connections that much more awesome. Soaring seacliffs does a similar thing.

I think it warrants a little testing too.

Still, it comes down to what GUnit was saying, efficiency and consistency. So I'm still very much in the "no" camp. But don't dismiss it as a crappy zendikar common. I think it is borderline playable like a card like goblin goon, kiki-jiki, etc. At least from what I've seen so far.

The CITP was not as skullcrushing as you might assume, using Media's logic. It came up a couple times, but nothing major. It getting wastelanded and my mana development being stopped was actually more of a problem.

Joe_C

12-16-2009, 12:30 PM

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Stingscourger
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Kiki-jiki Mirror Breaker

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland

SB: 3 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental
1 Pyroblast
3 Summoning Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Blood Moon

This deck took 2nd at the tournament I was just at this past weekend. Jason(dont know his name here on the source) always seemed to be a few seats away from me so we had 2 goblins players cheering each other on during the day:laugh: . Interesting not running instigator at ALL in favor of the full load of fanatics, this is something I had considered as well, but with some discussion with my team I decided to rock just 2 instigator since they can get in there savagely, and they did, just twice for me, I dont think they are needed to make the deck strong in the format though. Having more 1 drops makes incinerator a shitload better, and that card was indeed amazing for me all day along with pyrokinesis out of the board.

lillelassie

12-16-2009, 01:04 PM

Nice to see someone actually bothering to test my crazy brainstorming. I would have thought the Goblin Burrows would be better than Seacliff.

The problem with Seacliff is those already listed + would a Port just be better? What I do when I test cards for my sideboard in standard (and in general I guess), I think about the cards I have in hand and then "What available card would I most like this to be". So when you test Soaring try to think every time you draw it "Would a Port be better or worse in this situation?", it should give you some idea of the playability of Seacliff vs. Port.
I honestly think 4 Ports just seems better.

4 Soaring Seacliff also seems like to many - think its better as a 2 or 3-off, since 2x Seacliff hands make for some akward situations..

Also had Goblin Shortcutter been tested? or is it pretty much just a worse Stingscourger?

I also dont think that Warren has been legal or played long enough to earn a locked spot in Goblins.. Its just really hard to test cards in a format with so many decks..

Tacosnape

12-16-2009, 02:32 PM

Sorry to be a dick Taco, but the situation you note isn't as bad as you make it sound. A playtest with 8 Lackey effects could lead to some interesting results.

The point I'm making is that my scenario is going to be far more common than getting actual benefit off of the Lackey/Seacliffs combination. You're also going to open yourself up to further risk of not getting double red, which means not being able to play Warren Instigator, which is going to defeat the purpose.

I do like the idea of having Seacliff provide an alpha strike with a Piledriver, though.

Media314r8

12-16-2009, 08:31 PM

The point I'm making is that my scenario is going to be far more common than getting actual benefit off of the Lackey/Seacliffs combination. You're also going to open yourself up to further risk of not getting double red, which means not being able to play Warren Instigator, which is going to defeat the purpose.

I ran a test list with 24 lands, and thus preserved the number of red sources in mono-red lists running 22 lands with 4 wastes, 2 ports. Having 24 lands means that you'll less often be dropping seacliffs as an actual mana source, and hitting your early land drops until you need to jump a driver. I've been hitting 3 EtB untapped lands reliably enough to not have problems curving out with chieftains and warchiefs, but stumbling before casting a turn four ringleader has been a little bit of a problem. I will probably try -2 X, +2 warchief to help relegate the ringleader on four problem. I suppose I'm just spoiled from RB and playing frogtossers on two and ringleaders on three.

I find it odd that because of warchief's CMC of three, even my super-aggro mono-red list is more mana hungry than my RB list with a higher curve and frogtossers. Perhaps people just don;t respect the black warchief effect enough to force/daze him.

I do like the idea of having Seacliff provide an alpha strike with a Piledriver, though.

This has happened to me so many times on MWS, I'm actually having a problem getting game 2 and 3s because of the amount of SPLs a flying 13/2 driver causes. Jumping gators has to be the hottest thing ever - even if this idea turns out to be terrible and to cute, everyone should experience 'soar'ing a gator over a puzzled tarmogoyf and dropping in a surprise goblin bomb.

EDIT: In testing, I also would like to suggest anyone ~not~ 'jump'ing on the cliffs crazy train, but playing 8 lacky effects in mono-red, that goblin shortcutter may be a better way to ensure lackies connect than running 3-4 stingscourgers. In my experience, the echo on scourger is rarely played in such decks, and the additional body for drivers may be better than occasionally bouncing a tombstalker or dreadnaught. I still think scourger deserves a place in toolboxes, but shortcutter is something to test while we're on the subject of connecting lackies.

dearleader

12-18-2009, 03:39 AM

Stingscourger generates tempo at the 2cc slot, which is my favorite aspect of the card. It fits in so well with what the deck wants to do; either connect with a lackey, or get to the mid-late game where we can easily cast 3cc and 4cc goblins. The later is really important against faster aggro decks such as Zoo and Elves. I've even found it useful against ProBant where it can delay Natural Order by a turn.

I've been thinking about Shortcutter as well since I play a 8 lackey build, but if we're just looking at connecting with lackey, then they roughly have the same utility - namely, removing a blocker. Its then a question of whether you want the tempo/utility of Stingscourger compared to the 2/1 body of Shortcutter. I prefer the flexibility of stingscourger.

Tacosnape

12-18-2009, 10:46 AM

Shortcutter is terrible outside of the Lackey circumstance. Stingscourger can get things off of you that the deck loses to otherwise. Marit Lage, Baneslayer Angel, even Reanimator's Iona if you managed to get a Vial down fast enough.

Cyrus

12-18-2009, 05:31 PM

Is there any way to completely drop Wastelands in a meta full of basics? Going all-in balls to the wall aggro, maybe with some Burrows or Soaring Seacliffs; or maybe lowering the land count a bit. What's the best option?

Draener

12-18-2009, 06:48 PM

Cyrus

12-18-2009, 08:30 PM

Random stuff, things like Elves, MonoB Suicide, Spring Tide, sometimes Enchantress. In that case, dropping the land disruption cards would be nice, but how to effectively use those slots?

EDIT: Apparently Simian Spirit Guide is awesome.

shadowhunter483

12-18-2009, 10:08 PM

I edited a list I posted earlier.

// Lands
18 [9E] Mountain (3)
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AT] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [10E] Goblin King
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

I added in extra graveyard hate as I plan to play this in the LA 5K and since aggro loam won the previous 5K I'm anticipating life from the loam. The one of goblin king is for match ups where mountainwalk becomes useful. Against decks in which they clog up the ground with guys, you can drop it and win out of nowhere.

Nizmox

12-20-2009, 06:03 PM

I edited a list I posted earlier.

Insert List Here

That's my list exactly, except I maindeck stingscrouger over incinerators (and my incinerators are in the board). I was trying to run two ports up until yesterday, but I got mana screwed too often so they're out now.

I went 2-2 at my local legacy tournament (when i ran ports)
Wins vs Solidarity and ANT, and loses vs False Cure Stompy and Zoo
I should have won the Zoo matchup (it was 1-2) but I got mana screwed and made a bad play game 3.

Pyrostatic pillar were my saving grace vs both Storm matches, but I got lucky vs Solidarity, landing 2 uncountered pillars in the final match.

shadowhunter483

12-21-2009, 02:26 PM

I've modified my sideboard a bit.

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer

raudo

12-22-2009, 08:25 AM

Hello all! Couple of years off MTG and it looks like there are some new interesting goblins out.

I have used to run a mono red build including

4x mogg fanatic
4x lackey
4x warchief
4x ringleader
4x matron
4x gempalm incinerator
4x piledriver
3x sgc
1x tinkerer

4x vial

4x port
4x waste
8x fetch
mountains

Now it seems Goblin Chieftain, Warren Instigator and Stingscourger are in monored main decks. So, I took out 4 Fanatics and 3 Incinerators, Tinkerer and SGC and threw in 4 Chieftain, 4 Instigator and one Stingscourger.

But what I have tested so far I am missing very much 1cc fanatics and it almost seems that the new deck is worse. What is your opinion here? Are these new cards so useful at all? I think without fanatics the deck is much slower and without Vial or Lackey in the opening hand looks like autoloss many times.

Gibsonmac

12-22-2009, 09:53 AM

Joe_C

12-23-2009, 03:10 PM

Fanatic is horrible after the m10 rules change... you need multiple stingscourger, and unless you run into a ton of stax, tinkerer is best left in the sideboard, probably should drop the fetches, canadian thresh will rape you

the only thing fanatic doesnt do anymore is block a 2/2 and kill it. It is still a resonable choice

Illissius

12-23-2009, 04:14 PM

The other thing Fanatic doesn't do any more is get into combat with an x/1 and kill it, while also throwing itself at another x/1 to kill it.

shadowhunter483

12-23-2009, 06:37 PM

Creatures have also become bigger better and cheaper. Its hard for fanatic to kill anything these days. Take zoo, fanatic doesn't kill anything in the deck.

Nidd

12-23-2009, 06:50 PM

Creatures have also become bigger better and cheaper. Its hard for fanatic to kill anything these days. Take zoo, fanatic doesn't kill anything in the deck.
Grim Lavamancer wants to have a word with you.

But yeah, Fanatic doesn't do much these days. He's good against Dredge, though.

Joe_C

12-24-2009, 05:49 AM

Grim Lavamancer wants to have a word with you.

But yeah, Fanatic doesn't do much these days. He's good against Dredge, though.

along woth nacatl and kird ape after you wasteland their turn 1 taiga. I ran fanatic as a 2 of in my last tournament since there is a larger presence of dredge there. They proved useful in many other games as well, not just against dredge

pi4meterftw

12-24-2009, 05:54 AM

If tarmogoyf used to be +1/+1 over what it is now, and then it became what it is now, would you say it's bad? Obviously comparisons with the past are not a valid way to establish if a card is good or not.

Fanatic is still good. It serves a useful function in the mirror, it's a goblin, it costs R, and then it hates dredge. I'm curious: back in the old days, why did anybody walk into fanatic 2:1s? It seems like it'd almost always be better to just take a creature stall, unless you're so far ahead that after getting 2:1'd you're still the clear victor.

Mantis

12-24-2009, 06:31 AM

Let's have the Fanatic discussion again! .... It's garbage, it was good a long while back, but sucked even before the M10 rules changes. Now the metagame may change and Fanatic may be playable again, but not now.

What I was really wondering about: How is Soaring Seacliff doing in testing? I have little time to test it out, but the idea seems very solid actually.

Cyrus

12-24-2009, 11:56 PM

(nameless one)

12-27-2009, 04:23 AM

FoulQ

12-27-2009, 04:34 AM

Merry xmas everyone! I can't find wastelands for a decent price recently. What can I do to make my goblins deck suck less? I've been trying to go through the 20 Mountains + 4 SSG and it's doing ok. Not really sure if I'd be better running burrows, but Instigator t1 is awesome. Any other ideas?

I would test out the 4 soaring seacliffs over the 4 SSG. Having a t1 instigator is okay, but people have formulated their decks to answer first turn lackey for years, so I'm not really sure if the t1 instigator is really that great at the loss of card advantage and the somewhat rare times it comes up. Plus, 20 lands (regardless of their being 24 mana sources) is sort of playing with fire. Seacliffs surprises close to everyone, as it is a crappy zendikar common. Does this card even see play in standard/block? t1 lackey t2 cliffs is the dream play obv, but more importantly it gives you roughly 10 ways to answer a creature on turn 2 to clear the way for lackey: gempalm, stingscourger, and seacliffs. I don't think I'd go the balls to the walls approach, as I believe the standard build minus wastelands will still be better than that approach. Goblin Guide is really bad in this deck and Goblin Goon is subpar in today's metagame, sb at best for wily people.

Hopefully my message is coherent, It's 3:30am here and I need some sleep. I might come back to look at it tomorrow.

Gibsonmac

12-27-2009, 08:34 AM

FoulQ

12-27-2009, 12:53 PM

Alternatively, borrow them. Legacy communities tend to be pretty tight-knit. If you are unable to borrow some from somebody then your metagame is probably fairly underdeveloped and playing a suboptiimal build will not be the end of the world when few others have optimal builds.

Lord_Cyrus

12-27-2009, 06:40 PM

I went 5-1-1 in a local tournament last week, placing 2nd overall. I drew round 1 against Zoo (nice guy, but a new player who didn't really know any of the cards and played slow). I lost the finals against UBG Countertop in a tough 1-2 match where my hastily made sideboard killed my chances.

My mono-red build is:

4 Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Instigator
4 Warchief
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Shortcutter (Worked ok, but should be Sharpshooter, can't find him yet)
3 Siege Gang
3 Piledriver

4 Wasteland
18 Mountain

This hyper-aggressive build worked great for me, outpacing a mono-blue control and a BWG control deck, both of which just couldn't stabilize in time. I realize the strangeness of not playing Incinerators but honestly... I never missed them. Maybe that is very strange. I learned that the sideboard definitely needs Vexing Shusher for my local meta, and that Magus of the Moon is garbage.

To recap, matches were:

RWG Zoo: 1-1 Draw
Mono U Control: 2-0 Win
BWG Planeswalker control: 2-0 Win
Homebrew Boros Aggro: 2-1 Win
Merfolk w/ Jitte: 2-1 Win *toughest match, Shusher would have helped a ton*
Finals: UBG Countertop: 1-2 Loss *Shusher probably would have saved my ass here too*

Cyrus

12-27-2009, 07:31 PM

Usually Shusher isn't a good idea. 4 Vials + Lackeys + Instigators usually are enough, and Shusher requires a huge mana investment.

Kesta

12-28-2009, 12:18 PM

I won a small local tournament (16ppl) with this monoR list:

4 Port Rishadan
4 Wasteland
14 mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Aether Vial
3 Gelmpalm Incinerator
3 Stingscrouger
2 Warren Instigator
2 SGC
2 Goblin Chieftain

60 cards

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thorn of Amethist
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Anarchy

Well SB was junk but i was suposed to play survival but can't find Tarmo in time. I would have played 2 Anarchy, 4 Thorn, 3 Relic 1 Liege and 1 tinkerer instead.

4 rounds then top 4:
1st: Dreadstill with CB: 2-0 Win
2nd: ANT : 1-2 Lost
3rd: Landstill: 2-1 Win
4th: CB Bant: 2-0 Win
Top4: 1/2ANT same as 2nd round: 2-0 Win
Final: Merfolk: 2-0 Win

Goblin is so good against CB. Stingscourger is anazing against Dreadnought. ANT is the hardest MU, i've been lucky. Instigator is a good add but not much, chieftain is a must, i'll add one maybe. Merfolk is really the best MU, in the final i made a lot of small mistakes but won easily.

MonoR Gob is really my fav build for this archetype.

Joe_C

12-28-2009, 12:27 PM

Ive seen a few lists recently that are back up to 4 piledrivers and are winning. I highly doubt they are winning often on purely the backs of piledrivers, but it seems interesting that a few people have been running the full playset and doing well with them.

Kesta

12-28-2009, 03:53 PM

it's just the fastest way to win a game, and versus merfolk + RWM it rocks

Gibsonmac

12-28-2009, 04:01 PM

I've always ran the full set... I talked about dropping a couple, but I never actually did, too lazy to test it out.

Tacosnape

12-28-2009, 06:08 PM

I'm also back on board with four Piledrivers. It's just been too good to me in too many situations.

Nizmox

12-29-2009, 09:24 PM

I realize the strangeness of not playing Incinerators but honestly... I never missed them.

I completely agree with not running Incinerators, many times I find they are in my hand and of no value. They just don't cut it vs Tarmogoyf and i'd rather pack 4 Stingscrouger (or Warren Wierding if you run black). They're a lot better when you run Mogg War Marshall, but in the builds packing Instigator there's no room for them (Piledriver is also better with MWM, but still very good without). Also, if they become a dead card, the 2 mana to cycle feels very costly in a deck so focused on speed.

Another thing I have found but seems to be contrary to the majority is...
Goblin Chieftain > Goblin Warchief.
Having +1/+1 on all Goblins makes a massive impact on the amount of damage you deal and often I find I fetch him with Matron.
Goblin Warchief is still a great card, and I run 4, but I see many people running 1 or 2 Chieftains and 4 Warchiefs. Particually any build where you run 4 Instigators, you have 12 ways to cheat Goblins into play (Vial + Lackey + Instigator) I find that I really don't need the -1 to CC.

On another note... what do people think of this list? I'm keen to try it out (have never tried Black splash before). It's fitting with my thoughts on Warchief, but I'd probably remove the 1 copy of Incinerator.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29615

Joe_C

12-30-2009, 12:27 PM

Damnosus

12-30-2009, 02:09 PM

Sims

12-30-2009, 06:25 PM

4 Wasteland
17 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic Of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Goblin Tinkerer

this is my most recent list, its been performing really well in testing. At my last tournament, opposing vials and veldaken shackles really ruined my day so I added a few tinkerers to the SB to handle them.

This is pretty close to what I've got put together and sleeved, though I haven't been playing it lately. I've been loaning it out at weekly events to good success. That said, there are a few differences:

-1 mountain
-1 Matron
-1 Gempalm
-2 Mogg Fanatic
+1 sharpshooter
+2 rishadan port
+1 Instigator
+1 Piledriver.

Board different to cope with my ridic weird meta.. but that aside, very close list, almost down to preferences on numbers really.

Joe_C

12-30-2009, 09:45 PM

I really like your list Joe C-I am currently running a similar list. The only differences are -2 fanatic -1 Chieftain, +1 Instigator +2 Port--->FoulQ's list (thanks FQ!). Personally I like having the higher land count.

My question for you is, do you like having more chieftain than instigators? I feel that with your lower land count/lower number of lackey effects, running more instigators will be more beneficial as you are playing with 3x SGC. While I love Chieftain, dropping SGC more easily might make things even better for you. Just a thought.

I like instigator as a 2-of in my list. I feel like he is a waste in multiples in my hand early and I really really need fanatic in my meta, so instigator is a card I dont feel needs to be over 2 in my deck. I know alot of people are nay-sayers on fanatic, but he works for me and he is very useful if you play with him properly. I was running 3 ports in my list at the last tourney and was a little underwhelmed with them. I love them, but there is a ton of aggro in my meta and the slowdown of them not being colored mana wasnt working for me. I would put them back in if more control decks started showing up, but in the meantime I like the 17 red sources, 4 waste manabase for my list.

FoulQ

12-30-2009, 10:27 PM

-1 mountain
-1 Matron
-1 Gempalm
-2 Mogg Fanatic
+1 sharpshooter
+2 rishadan port
+1 Instigator
+1 Piledriver.

This somewhat concerns me. Matron is very important to have as a 4-of if you are trying to maximize the deck as a goblins deck. Like with ringleader and lackey, it will probably never be reasonable to have less than 4 in your deck at all times and continue to call it "goblins" in a legacy sense.

Matron does a lot of things:
First and foremost he fetches a mid game ringleader. What this does is help us transition into the late game, something we want against a lot of decks. Or, it will help us in the card advantage war, a war that inevitably occurs against another handful of decks.

He can also fetch transition cards. Gempalm Incinerator against zoo once we have established enough guys, for example. Kills a crucial guy and with the gempalm's cycling we don't really lose anything, and helps us get to the late ringleader game plan.

And he can fetch safety valves or cards to win the game. Sometimes your only out is stingscourger. Sometimes, a second piledriver will win the game then and there, and mathematically it makes sense to take the risk of matroning for a piledriver even if your opponent has W untapped if you are afraid of giving them enough time to draw answers to your synergistic creatures.

I will never cut matron.

DCTopTeam

12-30-2009, 11:00 PM

I have a question, is the W splash worth running and is it better than the B splash w/ Weirdings, Smothers?

Waikiki

12-31-2009, 03:17 AM

Read back some pages this discussion comes back every once in a while.

Lord_Cyrus

12-31-2009, 04:49 PM

Another thing I have found but seems to be contrary to the majority is...
Goblin Chieftain > Goblin Warchief.
Having +1/+1 on all Goblins makes a massive impact on the amount of damage you deal and often I find I fetch him with Matron.

When you need to win right now Goblin Chieftain can just break an opponent in a way I don't think Warchief can quite match. In terms of a longer game, with more positional development, say, trying to outmatch another tribal deck, Warchief's cost reduction really starts to shine. Ringleader practically makes this deck, and at 3 mana or less, he is just one of the most broken creatures ever printed.

Sims

12-31-2009, 06:07 PM

Wall of Text

Normally I would also argue against running any less than 4 legal Demonic tutors. However, in a deck with this level of redundancy, I have not found the full boat to be necessary. With 3 I have had very, very few times where I've needed one and not had it, but I also don't end up drawing 1 when I needed a Ringleader or a SGC or something and don't have the mana to send grandma looking for the goods. As someone who has played the deck since the format was 1.5 I feel comfortable, at least personally, dropping to 3 matrons.

Neither myself, nor any of the people I've been loaning out to, have had a problem with it either.

ddt15

01-02-2010, 06:59 PM

Here is my build which hasnt been updated in a while. Maindeck Pyrokinesis and lots of token creators with Incinerator to help the zoo matchup. I would like to fit in Chieftain obviously good with all the tokens and maybe Stingscourger but don't know what to take out (King could move to sideboad probably). Maybe Stingscourger instead of Pyrokinesis? Pyro gets rid of blockers permanently though.

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin King
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege Gang Commander

3 Pyrokinesis
4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
17 Mountain

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Price of Progress
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer

Joe_C

01-03-2010, 04:20 PM

stingscourger is our only out to Iona, which is starting to see alot more play at least in my area. Any phatty creatures decks can cheat into play will usually be too big for you to deal with with incinerator unless you are way ahead and winning anyway.

FoulQ

01-03-2010, 05:29 PM

If Iona is a problem, I would suggest a RB lackey-centric build. This way, you have two answers to Iona in two different colors. Also you will be playing both warren weirding and stingscourger: both fulfill similar roles against decks with few creatures but ones that can't be incinerated. With so many ways to remove blockers on t2 you will have a pretty high likelihood of connecting with lackey/instigator (although it is probably assuming you dropped incinerator to 1 or 0 of).

The big problem with this is that most people will have to change their playstyle as well, as connecting with lackies becomes more common but also much more important to success.

Still, something to try.

About the matron point, it is hard for me to argue against "well, it has worked for me, so..." I don't understand the logic behind drawing a matron instead of a ringleader or SGC. Matron acts as extra ringleaders, he makes it more likely for you to get more ringleaders, and to some extent SGCs, depending on your playstyle. That part really confuses me.

Sims

01-03-2010, 07:30 PM

About the matron point, it is hard for me to argue against "well, it has worked for me, so..." I don't understand the logic behind drawing a matron instead of a ringleader or SGC. Matron acts as extra ringleaders, he makes it more likely for you to get more ringleaders, and to some extent SGCs, depending on your playstyle. That part really confuses me.

I'm not the only deck that runs taxing effects on mana in the metagame that I play in. The problem that I have with it is that it's 3 mana to search my libarary, most common targets being 2 or 4 mana, where I do not always have vial/chief (and if I do I'm usually ahead ayways) and do not have the mana to play out the card I needed. Granted, I have one of the most fucked up metagames ever, which thankfully is starting to get a bit better, but I'd honestly rather run the 4th Piledriver over the 4th Matron. I haven't had any consistency issues at all, and have been overall happy with the list. Chalk it up to a preference thing if you want, but that is my preference.

Cyrus

01-04-2010, 10:15 AM

Joe_C

01-04-2010, 12:23 PM

I would be interested in what he lost to. I still dont think 4 piledrivers are needed. I dropped back to 2 again so I can run 3 ports in my deck (since I go -1 driver -2 mountain, +3 ports when I run them). Im not saying they are needed everywhere but in my meta fanatic comes in REAL handy.

Moosedog

01-04-2010, 12:41 PM

GUnit

01-04-2010, 02:00 PM

One RB gobs player was knocked out of top8 contention late by aggro loam at the 5K.

Kesta

01-04-2010, 04:44 PM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30749

MonoRed got 11th place in SCG 5k. I use a list almost identical to that one, except for the sideboard, I don't use Thorns. What did he use them for, besides combo?

I play an identical list, with -4moutains +4rishadan port
It works really well. Piledriver are a must, if your opponent don't blast them they win you the game quickly.

Thorn of Amethyst are good against multiple decks. Like ANT, Belcher, Solidarity, Burn, and all other deck playing few creatures.

In SB i wont cut Pyrokinesis, 4of is a must too.

Sims

01-04-2010, 07:10 PM

Anarchy, iona? white stax? am I overlooking something?

Iona, no. Iona on Red = you can't cast anarchy anyways. White Stax to an extent as you have no other out to Oblivion Rings, Moat, Ghostly Prison, Runed Halo, etc. But I can also see it being run as an out to Progenitus as well. While I've had no problem personally racing Prog with this deck (piledriver IS pro-blue), the players who play NO in my area are generally playing Bant or this one kid's own version of roguish G/U NO-Prog, where NO is pretty much only happening turn 3-4 at best.

Smashy Smashy

01-05-2010, 12:56 AM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30749

MonoRed got 11th place in SCG 5k. I use a list almost identical to that one, except for the sideboard, I don't use Thorns. What did he use them for, besides combo?

I was the one running that deck, was actually a really fun tournament with quite a diverse meta. The decks I played against were 3 Dredge, 2 Goblin Charbelcher, Fairies, and a mirror. I lost to one Dredge, Chris Higashi who went top 8, and one of the charbelchers.

Kesta got it right on the Thorns.

As for the four piledrivers, they really help smash face quickly. The increased chance to have one opening hand is key to a lot of wins.

FoulQ

01-05-2010, 01:14 AM

Did you bring in pyrokinesis against dredge? I know some people do this and some don't.

How did the belcher match you won play out? I'm guessing you got a thorn and he couldn't answer it, but you would have had to do this twice.

Smashy Smashy

01-05-2010, 01:56 AM

I didn't bring in the pyrokinesis against dredge, rather I just brought in the Relics and Crypts.

Belcher match was...fun. Game 1 he went first and stormed for Warrens to get 10 goblins. I played Lackey and passed, he swung for 9. My turn I threw down Stingscourger to bounce the token and connect with Lackey to play Siege Gang. His turn he just passed and kept his team untapped. My turn I played Chieftan and he picked up his cards.

Game two I had boarded in four Pyrokineses. He went first and just played a land and passed. I played a mountain and threw down Vial due to not having Lackey. The game progressed with him only playing two lands and me having drawn into Lackey and played it, along with two Matrons, Instigator, and Chieftan. He got some mana, used Burning Wish to grab Fallout, wipe my board, and end up storming again for 10 tokens. I was only holding two SCG and one Chieftan with four mountains and Vial at 3. I passed my turn as I drew another Chieftan. He swung with his team and I vialed down one of my Chieftans to block one. My turn I drew my fifth land and played SCG then passed. He held back his team and passed. I got a Lackey from top deck, played my second SCG and swung with one SCG and three tokens. He let them go through and I passed. He drew nothing and passed. I pulled a Pyrokinesis from top deck, removed the Lackey from my hand and burned four of his tokens then swung with my team. He lost the rest of his tokens blocking and then scooped next turn when he drew nothing.

I had thought about using Thorns against Belcher, but had just decided to use Pyrokinesis instead, can't even remember why now...

Also, this is just me trying my best to remember, it may have been a little different. I've only been playing Legacy for six months and am new to Magic competitions in general. Next time I will be taking notes so I can write up a tournament report.

ScatmanX

01-05-2010, 10:36 AM

Concerning sideboards, couple ?s

Referring to mono red builds:
Boartusk, is he needed if you are not expecting plague, which I think is a fair statement nowadays. Has anyone boarded him in knowing plague wasn't coming
Anarchy, iona? white stax? am I overlooking something?
golbins utility box, does anyone like this approach. i.e. stingscourgers, tinker, sharpshooter,chieftain?

I really like 2 MD Boartusk Lieage in MonoRed, but maybe that's just me. He is a really big guy, just by himself. He does not however, repleace Chieftain. They fill diferrent roles i my oppinion, Liege being way better agains't Zoo.
"Anarchy, iona? white stax? am I overlooking something?" - did not understood this part.

Utility box goblin is bad, and that is a consensous here from what I've seen. I tried and did not liked it.

As for the Piledriver number, I dropped 2 (of 4) for 2 Chieftains, and is working wonders.

Joe_C

01-05-2010, 12:13 PM

Anarchy is an out to Progenitus, good against enchantress, landstill to an extent (if they run Humility), savage against The mighty quinn (not widely played, but who knows). I worked ports back into my list as I expect to see more enchantress at my next tournament (there are always a few), keeping them off WW can be huge.

Ozymandias

01-06-2010, 12:31 PM

I managed to pick up Lackeys and Wastes so that I can finally play this deck. (If and When I get tired of playing Dredge, that is.)

I've been running a version with 4 Mogg War Marshall 0 Instigator, 4 Incinerator, and 2 stingscourger, but since I couldn't find a second scourger to test with, I used a Sparksmith as a substitute.

Man, that card is such a beating to cast against any deck without burn and with creatures. It singlhandedly won me a game versus Eva Green by eating Tarmogoyf and Nighthawk, and I imagine it will do the same thing versus Bant, etc. Its one weakness is that you hae to wait a turn to get it rolling without a Lord, but it's repeatable and stays on the board, so it actually does more damage in one shot than Incinerator would.

Any thoughts?

Mantis

01-07-2010, 06:31 PM

I still run conventional Goblins with Ports and no Instigator or Chieftain. I run 3 Relic, 1 Liege and 3 Warshall in the open slots along with 23 lands. My maindeck is optimized to get me to the lategame where I can bury my opponent under card advantage generated by Incinerator and Matron > Ringleader. I really dont like Instigator and Stingscourger as they are only good in the aggressive role and I actually play the control role surprisingly often.

The sideboard is the area which I feel most improvement is to be gained.
4 Mindbreak Trap or 4 REB
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Anarchy
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin Tinkerer.

I refuse to be a glass cannon and with 8 cards to combat Combo I should have a decent fighting chance against the unsuspecting combo player.
Anarchy seems needed right now, White Stax, Enchantress and even white weenie are doing well right now and Anarchy is a major trump, just stall until you find one.

Anyway, what do you guys think about Mindbreak Trap? Is it good against ANT or should I stick to the more versatile REBs (also good against Merfolk)?

FoulQ

01-07-2010, 07:12 PM

In your position I would stick with REB, as it is complementary hate with chalice. Plus I've seen you post that combination before, so you are probably more comfortable with it, and that's important in the matchup. In a vaccum mindbreak is perhaps better, but I think reb is the better choice in this situation.

I also agree that anarchy is in a moderately rare position where it is a great sideboard choice. Enchantress just won. Stax is more popular than ever. The new white weenie deck has emerged. And most importantly, progenitus.

Personally I'd rather play pyrokinesis over 8 SB cards for combo. Do you bring in chalice against zoo? Do you find it effective? This makes it so you have REBS for merfolk and Chalices for zoo, effectively replacing pyrokinesis for the main aggro matchups (except for the mirror), which is interesting. But I don't know how effective chalice really is.

Mantis

01-08-2010, 04:04 AM

Thanks for the feedback.
I do not expect a whole lot of Zoo and much more ANT hence my choice. Furthermore I have never been too impressed by Kinesis, I cant really put my finger on why. But in a metagame full of Zoo I would definately play and perhaps I will revise my opinion after this tounament.

Kesta

01-08-2010, 04:11 AM

I have a question about Thorn of Amethyst.

In which MU do you use it?

For me it's usefull against ANT, Belcher, Solidarity, Burn, Enchantress, Landstill, Canadian *****, Ichorid, ....

Maybe i made mistake but please discuss...

Nelis

01-08-2010, 05:04 AM

I still run conventional Goblins with Ports and no Instigator or Chieftain.

Does that include Mogg Fanatic?

Mantis

01-08-2010, 05:33 AM

Not sure if Thorn is good against Burn and Tempo Threshold, however it undeniably has some good applications against combo decks and to lesser extent Landstill. I should definately consider it as well.

@Nelis: No Fanatics, I rather use Relic to fill up the curve as Fanatic is just horrible in my opinion.

Nelis

01-08-2010, 05:49 AM

@Nelis: No Fanatics, I rather use Relic to fill up the curve as Fanatic is just horrible in my opinion.

I can understand you do not like mogg fanatic but how much use are those relics in the main? What matchups do they really shine in and do you come across those matchups often enough to warrant a mainboard spot for Relics?

I have taken up Goblins again after having played Zoo for the last couple of months. With Zoo I hardly ever had the need for graveyard removal apart for very specific situations (Reanimate and Aggro loam) but maybe it's different for goblins?

Oh and how many Siege-gangs do you run?

Mantis

01-08-2010, 10:20 AM

I do understand the choice of Relic is controversial, but I like them for a few reasons. Obviously Relic is devastating in some matchups such as Rock, Tempo Thre sh, Aggro Loam and Dredge and plain useless against decks that dont utilize the graveyard at all such as Merfolk. Relic does two things; it destroys Goyf and it digs for lands. I dont want to rely on just 8 one drops as Goblins 2 drops arent all that exciting. If you fail to make your first turn drop and the second turn you spend casting a Piledriver you are miles behind in terms of tempo and sit with a stacked hand. A Goyf and a Daze are all it takes for you to lose that game, however Relic allows you to threaten a trade with your Piley. If you play against a deck that doesnt utilize its graveyard, cycling it in the long run sets you back only a tiny bit and although this can cost you games it doesnt happen too often. If anyone has a better suggestion for the 1CMC slot I am all ears. Also keep in mind that I constructed my sideboard in such a fashion that I always have something remotely decent to side the Relics out for if my opponent doesnt use his grave.

I play 2 SGCs.

SpoCk0nd0pe

01-09-2010, 08:22 PM

I think the turn 2 drop you are lacking in that situation is the instigator. I didn't like him too at the beginning but he puts so much pressure on the opponent that I would say 4 instigators are a must. If he doesn't get blocked he might bring a matron or ringleader and then something nasty you search for or reveal. He just HAS to be answered and that's exactly what goblins need in the 2 mana slot.
[edit]especially against zoo pyrokinesis works wonders. You have more cards giving card advantage then most other aggro decks, what you need is some additional free removal to make lackey/instigator connect and trade some cards for additional tempo vs blockers. It was the first sb choice for me.

Nelis

01-10-2010, 10:08 AM

That's a good point, maybe he should compensate the lack of good 1 drops with a good 2 drop, being Instigator. I myself play 3 at the moment after having used 4 for a while. Sometimes it is just a bit too much. I also went to a Rb list again. I just can stand bouncing a creature with Stingscourger only to have it return the next turn. I want to get rid of it!

I'd like to share my list with you to see what you think of it.

0cc (24)
8 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Aunties Hovel
1 Bloodstaine Mire
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

I'm trying to minimize the amount of fetch but still have 1 black mana on turn 2. I'm still figuring out the right number here, so any thoughts on this matter are appreciated.
I'm also still in doubt about Rishadan Port. The way I feel about them now is either run 3 (or 4) or run none.

1cc (8)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial

2cc (11)
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Weirding
3 Warren Instigator

I just love Warren Weirding and I think it's necessary because of Progenitus and Iona. They see more and more play nowadays.

3cc (11)
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator (basically a 2 drop)
1 Goblin Chieftain

I really like Goblin Chieftain and have tried about all configurations with Goblin Warchief. I like that both give our creatures haste. Giving each goblin +1/+1 is really great but I realized that I had just too many 3 drops and that a lot of times I had more use for each spell -1 cc from Warchief than +1/+1 from Chieftain. So I figured I'll just tutor for it when needed. It was a hard decision though.
I also have never been keen on Gempalm Incinerator and always had only one to tutor for or played just none. But lately my mind has changed a bit. It can come in very handy at times. It's good removal in midgame and has its uses sometimes on turn 2 where you'd like to remove a Dark Confidant for instance to have my lackey connect. So I went to 2 copies to increase the chances of drawing it a bit but I'm still not sure.

4cc (4)
4 Goblin Ringleader

5cc (2)
2 Siege-Gang Commander

I never like having a Siege-Gang commander in my hand without the chance to cast it so 3 is too much for me. Usually I either search for it with Matron or only need it when Vial is on 5. Two seems like the right number.

SB:
No definate sideboard yet but it will feature at least 3 Pyrokinesis and 4 Thorn of Amethyst and 1 Warren Instigator when I expect to encounter combo. There's not much combo in my meta but when I go to the bigger tournaments in Holland they're in.

SpoCk0nd0pe

01-10-2010, 11:15 AM

I'd try to cut ports and work in some chieftains instead, they really work wonders with instigator. In my playtestings ports were mostly win more (like discussed earlier in this thread). Interresting idea to go black without fetchlands. I had most problems in games I didn't begin, I'd be very much interested in how often are you slowed down by wastelands?
I'm currently at 2 gempalms and 2 sgc too.

Nelis

01-10-2010, 12:24 PM

I'd be very much interested in how often are you slowed down by wastelands?

To be honest I haven't kept track in absolute numbers so I did 20 goldfish hands just now with the list posted above. So that's including Ports. Each time I did 7 rifleshuffles and 1 cutting of cards.

Number of times with no 2nd red mana on turn 1: 6
Number of times where I had an opening hand of 1 or 0 land hand: 3
Number of times no 2nd red mana after mulligan to 6: 1

I haven't taken into account hands that should have been mulliganed due to multiple lands nor have I kept track of the number of times I actually needed a second red mana source.

So that is almost 1/3 of the time I had to mulligan. Are those actually normal numbers for a (goblin) deck?

I might do some more hands later on.

FoulQ

01-10-2010, 03:32 PM

So that is almost 1/3 of the time I had to mulligan. Are those actually normal numbers for a (goblin) deck?

For RB goblins that seems just fine to me. Mulliganing smartly is very important for this deck. One of the strengths of mono-red is that it takes less mulliganing. I've mulliganed plenty of hands like:
mountain, mountain, waste, matron, ringleader, warchief, gempalm

So I think your number would probably be higher actually. Usually, if a g1 hand doesn't have a lackey or vial, or an instigator with a good t3 drop, that will be a mulligan. Or a one land hand, although the equation for keeping a one land hand is pretty complex and can't be rooted in such black & white terms, at least for me. But it really helps for that one land to be a basic mountain.

I think warren weirding is good but not stellar against iona/progenitus. The most stellar option is to race, which to me means maxing out on instigators, and then have stingscourger to make sure he connects. Plus you get more consistency with RB. But if your metagame demands weirding then obviously you want to play it.

Oh and gempalm is awesome, especially if your metagame is aggro or confidantish. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Sure he does the whole clear-path-for-lackey thing, but that is minor compared to his role as a transition tool. He allows you to do a role reversal, because if you are on the defensive against a deck like bant aggro than that is a problem, and you will lose. He lets you get back to being the attacker, the aggressor, in every matchup.

Dark Confidant, from what I've seen, is a very big enemy of this deck. When dark confidant lives for a long time, you will almost certainly lose the game. Grim lavamancer is another enemy that is a big problem. However, gempalm also has his role like I explained above, and beats for 2, unlike mogg fanatic.

About relic maindeck, I tested it and hated it.

And I don't really think the synergy between instigator + chieftain is that bombtastic. He still can't even trade with goyf most of the time, the only thing different is that he can trade with more guys.

Nelis

01-10-2010, 04:27 PM

For RB goblins that seems just fine to me. Mulliganing smartly is very important for this deck. One of the strengths of mono-red is that it takes less mulliganing.

So I think your number would probably be higher actually. Usually, if a g1 hand doesn't have a lackey or vial, or an instigator with a good t3 drop, that will be a mulligan. Or a one land hand, although the equation for keeping a one land hand is pretty complex and can't be rooted in such black & white terms, at least for me. But it really helps for that one land to be a basic mountain.

Yeah I agree it must be higher. Luckily I've taught myself to mulligan aggressively. Although sometimes maybe a bit too aggressive. I never keep a 1 land hand. So many people keep bad hands which makes me win. I'm always surprised how often that actually happens in tournaments.

I think warren weirding is good but not stellar against iona/progenitus. The most stellar option is to race, which to me means maxing out on instigators, and then have stingscourger to make sure he connects. Plus you get more consistency with RB. But if your metagame demands weirding then obviously you want to play it.

I'm not sure if I completely agree with you on this one. Its hard to race Iona when it's on red. You basically need a turn 1 vial to get around this. I do find it easier to to race Progenitus because most decks with NoPRO combo don't run many creatures. Often they can't afford to attack you. But if we do ned to remove it Stingscourger is of no use. I guess I do consider Warren Weirding stellar in this case.

Oh and gempalm is awesome, especially if your metagame is aggro or confidantish. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Sure he does the whole clear-path-for-lackey thing, but that is minor compared to his role as a transition tool. He allows you to do a role reversal, because if you are on the defensive against a deck like bant aggro than that is a problem, and you will lose. He lets you get back to being the attacker, the aggressor, in every matchup.

Dark Confidant, from what I've seen, is a very big enemy of this deck. When dark confidant lives for a long time, you will almost certainly lose the game. Grim lavamancer is another enemy that is a big problem. However, gempalm also has his role like I explained above, and beats for 2, unlike mogg fanatic

My local meta is mostly an aggro aggrocontrol meta. Not much combo unless someone decides to ruin our otherwise perfectly magic sunday. :laugh: What you're saying makes sense so I guess I am right to run 2. If I need it, like in the situation you mention, it's often during midgame.

About relic maindeck, I tested it and hated it.

I´ve been thinking this over and I think it´s better to spend those slots on more goblins even if that unbalances the deck´s curve somewhat.

FoulQ

01-10-2010, 04:54 PM

I guess with the Iona thing, I'm not sure it is worth to splash because it is the only card that really has no answer in mono red, is what I'm getting at, so in the overall picture I think the most stellar option is to stay mono red and just try to race it if it comes up. I haven't really tested the reanimator matchup so I'm not sure exactly how it goes, but against dredge we have plenty of ways to make sure dread return cannot come online g2/3.

Nelis

01-10-2010, 06:34 PM

Reanimate can reanimate on turn two and they usually do if they know their opponent doesn´t have counter backup. So you basically need a lackey or Vial before that happens.

I see what you mean. I must admit that one of my main reasons for splashing black is that I´m somehow more at ease playing Rb. Like I said a few posts earlier I like the creatures to be gone and not have them return the following turn.

But also it opens up a few more sideboard possibilities like Cabal Therapy. This also means that I have different options in playstyle than only to race in those bad matchups. There´s also a lot of ANT players in Holland where running black might be an advantage.

I have decided to take out 3 Rishadan Port for 2 Mountain and 1 Volrath´s Stronghold. I used to play Stronghold before and really liked it. I could even take out 1 more mountain for a goblin and run 23 lands

SpoCk0nd0pe

01-12-2010, 03:47 PM

About the chieftain: I would never cut a warchief for a chieftain, the warchief just gives the tempo we need and thats way more important then +1/+1. I still like the synergies of chieftain and instigator plus he gives extra haste :) I think playing 2 or 3 of them gives mono r goblins a mayor boost.

Here is my current list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
18 [B] Mountain

// Creatures
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

I'm not sure about the last 4 sb cards though. What do you think?

[edit]just thought about boarding 3 goblin kings against zoo and goyfsligh. They might get the punch you need against those annoying blockers but he might get burned anyway. Didn't test him yet, oppinions?

FoulQ

01-12-2010, 04:51 PM

I think searching threads can be really useful. There is a search button in the upper right corner of the thread. In 5 minutes I found some useful stuff on goblin king.

Goblin King isn't really all that good, Mogg War Marshals are better than that against zoo.

Goblin King: I mainly say this for the Zoo matchup. Another Lord and the ability to sneak whatever isn't PtE'ed/Helix'ed/Lightning Bolt'ed in.

I don't know how I missed Zoo, but yeah, Goblin King offers evasion there. As for the rest: Goblin King is obviously pretty good in the mirror, though he is symmetrical, and is a terrible card to have if you fall behind your opponent in the mirror. I haven't seen many Burn decks that are overly concerned with blocking your guys. Matchups like Zoo, Goyf Sligh, and Aggro Loam are all tough regardless of King because there's a good chance he won't stick around for very long. I'm not saying King is terrible coming out of the sideboard, he isn't, but there are more effective ways to fight E. Plague. I've never played him against Zoo, but I imagine he'd get 1 for 1ed pretty quickly. Interesting thought, though, given that he circumvents the entire "Goyf sitting there blockin' me dudes" thing.

Keep in mind, though, that you asked why we weren't running more lords, not why we weren't talking about King in the board.

About Goblin King- I ran 3 maindeck for a few years, until Chieftain was printed. The whole if he gets removed we're really screwed thing rarely happens. I admit it can happen, but with Lackeys, Warchiefs, Piledrivers, your opponent is usually out of removal spells. I think boarding him may be worth trying. It seems like it'd be good against Plague and Pyroclasm, maybe a house in the mirror, and look at Merfolk and Elves, they run like 8 and 12 lords right? If it works for them why doesn't Goblins run more lords as well?

Goblin King: The lord ability can be good, but we already have 4 maindeck Chieftain, so it's not needed. Mountainwalk is not great either, cause in the mirror it plain sucks, and every other red-matchup (beside aggroloam and 43 lands) is going to run tons of removal. If we attack and king gets removed before blocks, we're probably in a bad, bad position.

etc....

If you are going to have reliable combo hate in your sideboard, 5 is a bad number. You probably either want 4, 8, or 0. 4 is kind of awkward too, but it gives you at least a fighting shot, and is an okay number in a random metagame and you have the hinting suspicion combo will be there. 8 is what you want if you are expecting to face combo in 2+ rounds. And 0 is the default number, what you should go with in a regular metagame. I would play something like this, assuming you want some combo hate (as it was in your original board):

4 Pyrokinesis
3/1 Relic/Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst/Chalice of the Void (I personally prefer chalice)
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Anarchy

Moosedog

01-12-2010, 06:52 PM

Took this list to the 82 person up in vestal and ended up with 13th and playset of mires :smile: I took some sloppy notes and here is what I got out of the tourney.
4lackey
4ringleader
4warchief
4piledriver
4matron
2stingscouger
2 gempalm
2 SGC
3 chieftain
2 instigator
2 mogg fanatic (I explain)
4 vial
17 mountain
4 waste
2 port
board
4 thorn
3 crypt
3 relic
2 mogg fanatic
2 boartusk liege
1 tinkerer

Round1 URG thresh (bear/nimble/goyf/bolt/fire/ice)
Game one doesn’t go well. 2 fire/ice and 2 bolts and ringleader got counter spelled I lost that one.
Gm2 – being on the play he has to force my turn one lackey and I just keep the pressure on and in the end theres just too many gobs..
Gm3-wasteland is really good.
WIN2-1

Round 2 B/Gw
Gm1 thoughtsiezes, diabolic edicts, hymns, vampire nighthawks, gatekeepers, deeds, stalker – well you get the idea I did not win this.
Gm2 more of the same oo and just in case I sorta had a chance he boards in 3 plague..ha
Lose0-2

Round 3 WGU –NO Pro
Gm1 Even though fanatic is really bad this was cool. I’m on the play and go mountain lackey. He goes duel noble hierarch. I go waste and fanatic on hierarch to which he tells me he kept a one land hand because of the hierarch.
Gm2-wasteland is really good.
Win2-0

Round 4 Enchantress
Gm1 mulls to 5 but still sees 3 solitary confinement and elephant grass.
Gm2 On the play I’m too quick and he can’t catch up.
Gm3 only reason I win this is because of port. I have no business being in the game but keep him off his serra sanctum. It comes down to him needing to top deck an enchantment, which isn’t that hard but luckily he doesn’t!
Win 2-1

Round 5 Mono B Artifacts
Gm1 lackey-he doesn’t answer-I win
Gm2 he play first turn chalice with tomb. 2nd turn trinisphere. 3rd turn crucible (he has a factory) 4th turn the abyss!!. 5th turn razormane masticore! Wtf!? That was probably the most certain I’ll ever be that I cannot win the game.ha
Gm3 first turn lackey and he can’t catch up.
Win2-1

Round 6 Merfolk J
Gm1 he is on the play and I keep a bad hand because I get cocky since I know he is playing merfolk. Anyway I lose and deserve it.
Gm2 I don’t keep a bad hand and do what gobs is supposed to.
Gm3 See game 2
Win2-1

Round 7 Dredge (and if I win I make top 8)
This is the game I really wanted to post.

Gm1- I actually get one of my 2 maindecked fanatics, that coupled with him thinking I was using imperial painter (which my friend was using) he kept a hand that wasn’t very good against me and I take game 1.
Gm2 (I board in 3 relic, 3 crypt, and 2 other fanatics.) He is on the play and I drop a first turn relic which he proceeds to ancient grudge next turn. Then I waste his only land and play fanatic. He plays around fanatic I only got 1 bridge and just held his land until he needed it so the waste didn’t hurt him at all either.
Gm3 I drop first turn fanatic and crypt and am feeling pretty good and for the third straight game he goes first turn tribe! Next turn I waste his land but after that I couldn’t get any kind of attack going b/c I boarded out most of my creature hate and couldn’t do much against the tribe/couple zombie tokens he had and then he went off and I lost…I think I could have used the crypt better I waited and then he grudged it and I didn’t get that much out of the yard. The fanatic only got one bridge again.
Lose1-2

Comments: Dredge! I need some help with this. I made my list b/c I planned on seeing a lot of dredge and then when I see it I lose anyway. Please note that MD fanatic was only there for dredge. I knew it wasn’t a viable option otherwise. Also I really like the 4-2 split of drivers-instigators.

Fanatic just plain sucks. When I had 4 in there against the dredge deck it still wasn’t too great because then I wasn’t dealing him enough damage to put him on a decent clock. So hands I usually would mulligan I kept because I had a first turn drop in fanatic.(only referring to dredge) Long story short even if all I expect to see is dredge I still don’t think I would run them now. I don’t play a lot of good dredge so I looking for some comments because I know I could have played this better and it cost me the top 8. Questions: Did the dredge player get really good hands against me and am I overreacting? Is this matchup not that bad? If fanatic is as bad as I think it is then what other options do we have for dredge, is crypt and relic enough? Are crypt AND relic really viable boarding options without hurting the deck too much? Thoughts on what to board out?

Mantis

01-12-2010, 06:55 PM

lillelassie

01-13-2010, 08:01 PM

Moosedog if you want to beat dredge diverse your hate - And if you have 2 Mogg Fanatics in your sideboard only for Dredge there certainly are better answers.. The best card vs Dredge is Leyline fo the Void, just play 3-4 of those along with 3-4 relic/crypt if you want to beat it. you could play Ravenous Trap too, but Leyline is just better I think,

Joe_C

01-14-2010, 12:18 PM

Moosedog, my list is only a handful of cards off from yours, my board however hasnt failed me yet against ichorid:

4 Wasteland
15 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer

against Ichorid I take out -2 instigator,-2 SCG, -1 Stingcourger,-4 Vial, -2 Incinerator. In 2 Reb, 3 Relic, 2 Trap, 4 Pryokinesis.
thats alot of cards, but its pretty necessary to win consistently. Reb is good to keep them off 3 creatures(moeba) and to deny careful study and breakthough.

T is for TOOL

01-14-2010, 01:54 PM

How many problems has your manabase given you to reach RR by the second turn? I tried a very similiar list sans the Ports over in Europe during the 270 man Frankfurt tourney but I found myself missing the Ports in several games. Is there a reason that you are maindecking Fanatics over more Instigators/Piledrivers other than a heavy presence of Ichorid in your local metagame?

I'd also recommend that you consider a one-of Sharpshooter in the SB and a 4th Relic over the two Pithing needles. Either that or cut the Needles and Traps for a playset of Blood Moons.

Tacosnape

01-14-2010, 02:33 PM

While Fanatic does suck, I think that if you tested it further, you'd find that more often than not Dredge isn't going to godplay around several pieces of hate. I'd take your list against Dredge any day. That said, I run between 6-7 yard hate pieces in my board and 0 for Storm Combo, because I don't think Goblins can solve both problems adequately.

Ozymandias

01-14-2010, 02:48 PM

Here is my current list. Zoo and Bant are popular players in the local meta, as are merfolk and goblins.

//Spells
4 Aether Vial
//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Sparksmith
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
//Lands
4 Wasteland
17 Mountain
//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 ???

Marshal is so goo against any deck that swings, and Incinerators/Sparksmith go hand in hand with them. I may need another Chieftain because of the large amount of bodies Marshal can produce.

I am thinking of cutting Thorn for something and just punting the combo matchup. Also, is Relic better as Leyline? I've noticed that Dredge only has about 4 answers to Leyline even postboard nowadays, and it is the most crippling answer card, even if you have to aggro mull to it in monored. What should the last 3 slots (or 7 if I cut Thorn) be?

Joe_C

01-14-2010, 03:12 PM

I dont like running Instigator as more than a 2of in the deck. Having more RR cost creatures makes it difficult to run port, which IMO is just amazing to have. Fanatic doesnt purely suck, he works in tandem with incinerator to take out larger creatures, can chump block a goyf and kill a noble heirarch in one shot, or go to your opponents face for the extra point of damage you need to kill. He is mainly in my list to combat dredge, which he serves a strong purpose against.

My board I actually think is quite suited for my meta which is mostly dredge, zoo, some countertop. I for-go the combo matchup since it is nigh-unwinnable unless I board just for that matchup. My last tournament I lost 2 matches due to artifacts(survival with vials, and NLU with shackles) so the needles and tinkerer are there to help in those situations. Other than that I felt really happy with the way my list played (which is the same as the one I just posted above).

SpoCk0nd0pe

01-15-2010, 01:31 PM

I dont like running Instigator as more than a 2of in the deck. Having more RR cost creatures makes it difficult to run port, which IMO is just amazing to have.
I think Instigator is the best turn 2 drop, the second best 2 mana drop and gets you a lot of tempo. In my testings the games in witch you are behind port just sucks because it slows you down so very much. And those games you need a card for extra tempo and pressure to win - Instigator. Just my 2 cents

lillelassie

01-16-2010, 06:15 AM

Apparently the Jap's are playing Legacy too - Two fairly similar Rgb lists which made top 8 in a 178 tourney: (source: deckcheck.net)

Here I post the list used by pro Kuroda Masashiro:

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Warchief
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Wort, the Raidmother
1 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

3 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

SB

1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst

Apparently the splashes in both decks are primarily for the sideboard, this list only have 1 black card main in Warren Weirding. Also some weird numbers and inclusions - look for instance the ratio between Warchief and Chieftain, the 1 Mogg war Marshall, 1 Mogg fanatic, 1 Skirk Prospecter and 1 Raidmother. Honestly Raidmother just seems like a worse Siege-gang Commander maindeck, but I guess she is quite the beating when you can copy Perish (to fight counterspells), and to a certain extent Krosan Grip and pyrokineisis, and ofcourse you can copy the maindeck Weirding, which seems quite saucy too.. The 1-offs are in there to be tutored for I guess, but do you really want to tutor for Mogg War Marshal, Skirk or Mogg Fanatic? dont you just want to tutor for Ringleader and maybe draw into those or other goblins? I guess Mogg War Marshall is resonable enough to search for vs zoo, and if you just have 1 mana available the Mogg Fanatic can kill a 1-toughness that Gempalm cannot, Skirk Prospecter can get you out of manatrouble or combokill with SGC. Also note that the above 3 are all early drops, making the curve lighter and support the 4 maindeck Gempalms.. Last note that they dont play any Warren Instigators, and play 4 Piledrivers..

Nelis

01-16-2010, 07:34 AM

It seems to me that they tried to get past the early game without getting beat into a pulp by Zoo and do their thing midgame. This way its more important to have your creatures be a bit bigger (thus more Chieftains) and be able to get rid of early threats (hence the lower curve and 4 Gempalms). This also means that you only need Warchief later maybe turn 4/5 and not turn 3. I think they're right not to run 4 Warchiefs and 4 Chieftains. It's too much.

The inclusion of Perish is really smart. Its easier to get rid of the red creatures early game. Its harder to get rid of Goyf and to lesser extent Nacatl. If you think of it, when you waste a forest Kird Ape is 1/1, while the Nacatl next to it can still be 3/3.

I think we can all agree that you don't want to run Instigators with both Wastelands and Ports.

Joe_C

01-16-2010, 09:58 AM

you can run instigator along with waste/port. you jsut cant run 4 ports and 4 instigator(which seems to be way too many even if running just mountain/waste manabase). I run 2 instigator and have not had a problem playing him when i want to.

Sims

01-16-2010, 10:23 AM

I've been playing 3 Instigators with 2 port 4 waste (I'd fiddle with the land numbers, but I only own 2 ports right now and have higher concerns than those lands.) and haven't had a problem. I rarely hit the situation where i've got too many colorless lands, I mean sure it happens, but it happens so infrequently that I haven't felt that it's hurting the deck overall.

UberNewHacks

01-17-2010, 09:42 AM

Why not Snuff Out? It takes care of Iona, anything in Merfolk, anything in Zoo without having the Pyrokinesis card disadvantage?

Cyrus

01-18-2010, 12:12 PM

Pyrokinesis can be a 2:3, and usually a 2:2. Snuff Out is always a 1:1, and can't kill confidant and other relevant stuff. And the lifeloss isn't negligible either.

Enigma

01-19-2010, 12:37 PM

I played goblins last sunday in a 35 people tournament in montreal and finished 9th. I wanted to share the list, which I find really good against control and aggro-controls. I'll just add more pyrokinesis to the board and switch 1 MD Squad for 1 more Gempalm, and I think I'll be fine enough against aggro too.

Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=420757#post420757), List (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXd2Jo63YYsEZGQzcHo0NjhfMTBobThqNGRmcQ&hl=en)

Comments!

P-M

Nelis

01-20-2010, 06:08 PM

1 Wort, the Raidmother

<snip>

SB

1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst

Apparently the splashes in both decks are primarily for the sideboard, this list only have 1 black card main in Warren Weirding. Also some weird numbers and inclusions - look for instance the ratio between Warchief and Chieftain, the 1 Mogg war Marshall, 1 Mogg fanatic, 1 Skirk Prospecter and 1 Raidmother. Honestly Raidmother just seems like a worse Siege-gang Commander maindeck, but I guess she is quite the beating when you can copy Perish (to fight counterspells), and to a certain extent Krosan Grip and pyrokineisis, and ofcourse you can copy the maindeck Weirding, which seems quite saucy too..

I just figured out that's not possible.

Each red or green instant or sorcery spell you cast has conspire. (As you cast the spell, you may tap two untapped creatures you control that share a color with it. When you do, copy it and you may choose new targets for the copy.)

So I wonder is Wort, Raidmother only intended to copy Pyrokinesis or Krosan Grip or is it simply an entry mistake? Should it not just be Wort, Boggart Auntie?

And am I right that I do not have to remove a card when I copy a Pyrokinesis with the conspire ability? I'm not 100% sure.

FoulQ

01-20-2010, 06:37 PM

I really doubt its Wort the Raidmother, seeing as how that card is absolutely atrocious, especially in this deck which plays 0 maindeck red or green instant/sorcery spells and only 2 in the sideboard. A card that costs SIX, with ZERO relevance g1, sorry but that was a misprint.

Mikeleroi

01-20-2010, 08:12 PM

Enigma

01-20-2010, 10:09 PM

It fits the curve better, making our non-vial hands way, way better. That's the main reason. Sure, Chieftain helped making this switch because we still have the "haste lord".

P-M

arebennian

01-21-2010, 07:11 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4849536#post4849536

Bazaar Trader 1R
Creature - Goblin (R)
T: Target player gains control of target artifact, creature or land that you control.
1/1
Matt Cavotta
#72/145

I was really looking forward to this guy :-(

Cyrus

01-21-2010, 08:04 AM

Me too. Thought it was gonna be a gilded drake on steroids.

Cesarius

01-21-2010, 10:48 AM

...Well, at least Goblins now has an excuse to strap a Bronze Bombshell combo onto the deck.

Okay who am I kidding, let's hope for other, more relevant goblins.

Nelis

01-22-2010, 08:21 AM

It has taken me a while to realize that monoR is better than Br. I have also figured out that Warren Instigator isn't worth running. He makes the deck too inconsistent.

Next sunday I will play at my local tournament, 20 people will attend. First I'll post my decklist and below that the expected metagame and what I'm thinking of putting in my sideboard. That's where I'd like your advice.

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Artifacts
4 AEther Vial

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

My thoughts on the Chieftains and Warchiefs. I rather have a War Marshal on turn 2 and a Chieftain turn 3 than a Warchief turn 3. I see Warchiefs more as a midgame/lategame card when you want to push some last damage in fast or when you're trying to overwhelm your opponent (and want to put out multiple creatures).

I'm thinking of putting in 1 Stingscourger but don't know what to take out.

Expected metagame:
Merfolk: 2, maybe more. 1 will be U/W
Rock: 1 (could also be Merfolk)
Landstill: 1 (could also be Merfolk or a countertop deck)
Aggro Loam: 1 (maybe 2)
WGB TopRock: 1 (flickerwisp/kitchen finks 'combo' included)
Dragon Stompy: 1
NoPro Countertop: 1
UGr TreshTresh: 1
Combo: 3 probably (if I guess: 1 Belcher, 1 Aluren or Dredge, 1 unknown)
Random Homebrew: 3 (2 are negligable)
Unknown: 5 (most likely aggrocontrol)

Bad matchups:
Aggro Loam
Combo (1 person will be a good pilot (Aluren or Dredge))

Troublesome matchups:
NoPro Countertop
Dragon Stompy
WGB Toprock

Annoying matchups:
Merfolk

Please let me know if you see things differently about the analysis above.

Sideboard:
4 Ravenous Trap (vs aggro loam Dredge)
4 Pyrokinesis (Merfolk and random aggro)
3 Shattering Spree (Merfolk: Jitte/Vial, Dragon Stompy, Random Artifacts)

That leaves 4 open slots. What to put in?

Cesarius

01-22-2010, 10:15 AM

If you want to improve your combo-matchups: Try CotV/Pyrostatic Pillar.
I'm also seeing a blue-heavy meta going on there. I'm not too experienced with Goblins so I might be wrong here, but is Pyroblast/BEB a viable sideboard card for Goblins?

Nelis

01-22-2010, 11:34 AM

I'm thinking of ignoring Belcher if they belch, I can side in Pyrokinesis vs their tokens if they go that way. I'm not 100% sure that deck will show up anyway. Ravenous Trap 'takes care' of Aggro Loam and Dredge. That should be enough to battle the combo decks that (might) see play.

Pyroblast/Reb has entered my mind but shouldn't Pyrokinesis be enough vs Merfolk?

How about Summoning Trap for the other U matchups?

Joe_C

01-22-2010, 12:36 PM

Nelis

01-22-2010, 01:56 PM

Nelis: I wouldnt say instigator isnt worth running at all, I wouldnt run more than 2 personally, but I cant say not running him makes your list inferior, since goblins was good before instigator, and he doesnt make the deck broken by any means ie. thresh running werebear nowadays vs goyf...

I figured if I run 2 I hardly have them in my hand when I would want them the most (early game) that's why I left them out.

I like 4 pyrokinesis and at least 2 reb in my board. Reb is useful in alot of matchups, I even bring in a few against ichorid. Rhox war monk is another big card that Reb deals with, and in a way in certain situations I would rather pitch a reb to pryokinesis than a creature, so having them in together against blue is good times. I know people who have run summoning trap with some success, seems worthwhile if you are in a control infested meta.

Sounds solid, there's probably about 8-10 blue based decks. So that's + 2 REB. I think I'll add 2 Pithing Needles as well since it's good vs Sensei's Divining Top, Belcher, Planeswalkers (Elspeth) and other random stuff.

lillelassie

01-22-2010, 02:26 PM

[QUOTE=Nelis;421945]I figured if I run 2 I hardly have them in my hand when I would want them the most (early game) that's why I left them out.

You kind of run them as Lackey number 5 and 6, since thats the number I guess most people would play of lackey's if you could play more than four.. So if you run two you effectively have 6 lackey effects - thus improving to have a lackey when you want it the most (early game). You could try to add 2 Warren Instigators over 2 Mogg War Marshalls for a while and tell us all how that is..

Regarding your sb I have a few comments. If you want 3 Shattering Spree I think it could be nice to replace 1 of them with Goblin Tinkerer as a tutor target, and he can sometimes kill more than 1 artifact too.. I would split up your graveyard hate - if you only 4 hate-effect I would go something like 2 Tormods Crypt and 2 Ravenous Trap.. This way you challenge GY-decks better I think cause they have to have different anti-hate cards too. Like artifact hate AND discard, instead of just discard.

The 2 added Reb is okay I guess - personally I dont really like them, since they dont really do anything for me I think.

Other than that you could maybe add a Stingscourger or two in your sb just to bring in vs goyfdecks, but I guess your MD Mogg War Marshall does a gooc job blocking them anyway. For the last slot you could consider something fun like 1 Jitte or 1 Sharpshooter against creature decks I guess. Have you guys had any experiences with Sharpshooter vs Merfolk? He seems good on paper vs them. So my SB for you would look something Like:

Creature Hate:
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

Artifact hate:
2 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin Tinkerer

GY hate:
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormods Crypt

Misc:
2 Red Elemental Blast

Nelis

01-22-2010, 03:04 PM

Yeah you're right on the Instigator (that line of reasoning slipped my mind) but I'll leave 'em out because there's no room. I just cut 1 mountain for a Stingscourger.

I'll think the sb over some more.

ScatmanX

01-22-2010, 06:08 PM

Dropping Stigator Turn 2 and Chieftain Turn 3 deals the same amount of damage as War-marchall. I'd suggest running at least 2. I'm at 3 for instance.

About Sharpshooter, Lightning Crafter is just better agains't Merfolk. You just win 90% of the time you land one. The bad part is that Sharpshooter is better agains't Empy the Warrens, so dunno... The SB looks fine.

Nelis

01-23-2010, 04:04 AM

Dropping Stigator Turn 2 and Chieftain Turn 3 deals the same amount of damage as War-marhall. I'd suggest running at least 2. I'm at 3 for instance.

That's true but with war marshal you get 2 damage in when my opponent has a blocker. Another reason I chose for War Marshal is that it's better with Gempalm Incinerator.

But what would you propose I take out should I want to put in 2 Instigators? I suppose I cuold take out 1 War MArshal but I don't feel like going to 2 marshals.

lillelassie

01-23-2010, 10:52 AM

Piledriver or Chieftain are probably what you want to cut after 1 MWM. imo. I still like my 4 Warchiefs main, since its nice to both tutor for and play a Ringleader in the same turn. Makes you cast multiple spells on one turn - its kinda like a pseudo Vial in my opinion, and they are actually okay in multiples, since Matron, Ringleader, SGC have more colorless manacost.

In general I find Goblins to be a very manahungry deck, add to this that you run waste and port - its nice to be able to waste on turn 4, and STILL play your Ringleader, Port keeping them off goyf-mana mid game, etc... Point is that you almost can't manascrew with goblins, there is just so much to do with that mana, SCG's activated ability, Gempalm, Port, Echo-cost, playing multiple goblins in the same turn. I'd think twice about playing less than 4 Warchiefs. This is ofcourse just arguments from the top of my head - pure theory. I haven't tested or played goblins for a long time.

ScatmanX

01-24-2010, 12:45 PM

Slavering Nulls
1R
Creature - Goblin Zombie Uncommon
Whenever Slavering Nulls deals combat damage to a player, if you control a Swamp, you may have that player discard a card.
2/1

Definetly playable, but other than that, good?
Must be awesome agains't combo and control decks. In Rb obviously.
What do you guys think?

Tao

01-24-2010, 01:07 PM

It looks good but I think it is strictly worse than Warren Instigator for the maindeck. Both deal 2 damage when they connect but Instigator's effect seems much more powerful.

arebennian

01-24-2010, 01:44 PM

Not as good as the Seacliffs spoken about earlier but on colour....

Land (Common)
~ ETB tapped
T: add R
When ~ ETB, target creature cannot block EOT.

ScatmanX

01-24-2010, 02:31 PM

It`s called Smoldering Spires and I don't think it'll make the cut, but testing could be done.

Lots of people don't Like Instigator because it "does nothing" if you do't have a gob in hand. I like Gator, but for those who doesen't, Slavering Nulls could be a great option. With Warchief in play, it is awesome me thinks.

ddt15

01-24-2010, 03:18 PM

Here is my list, by cmc:

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Skirk Prospector

4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Stingscourger

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Recruiter

3 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Wasteland
17 Mountain

-sb-
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Price of Progress
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer

My main question is how do you guys feel about prospector/war marshal against chieftain/instigator. Prospector allows you to chain goblins sometimes and can really make a game explode, also it can serve as mana fixer and is as good as fanatic to remove bridges against ichorid.
I would like to fit in some number of chieftains although i don't know what to take out. I will probably include Thorn of Amethysts in my sideboard instead of the Pillars. (Still waiting to buy those and a couple of Chieftains until i figure out what configuration i will play).

Nelis

01-25-2010, 06:50 AM

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Artifacts
4 AEther Vial

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

My thoughts on the Chieftains and Warchiefs. I rather have a War Marshal on turn 2 and a Chieftain turn 3 than a Warchief turn 3. I see Warchiefs more as a midgame/lategame card when you want to push some last damage in fast or when you're trying to overwhelm your opponent (and want to put out multiple creatures).

I'm thinking of putting in 1 Stingscourger but don't know what to take out.

I decided to cut one mountain to put in a Stingscourger.

Sideboard:
4 Ravenous Trap (vs aggro loam Dredge)
4 Pyrokinesis (Merfolk and random aggro)
3 Shattering Spree (Merfolk: Jitte/Vial, Dragon Stompy, Random Artifacts)

That leaves 4 open slots. What to put in?

My sideboard was (I had no more time left to think it over properly):
2 Pithing Needle
2 Stingscourger
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
4 Pyrokinesis

Ok I went 4-2 yesterday (21 people attending, a new record!) losing to Dragon Stompy round 1 and LEDless Dredge round 6. I had a lucky win against Aggro Loam since he was manascrewed twice (partly thanks to my Wastelands). Other wins: Homebrew Clerics, Rb Goblins, NOPRO Countertop (thanks to Rishadan Port). And nobody played Merfolk.

VS DS: Game 1 I made the mistake of not wasting his City of Traitors when I could so he could go Seething Song, Arc-Slogger while he already had Taurean Mauler on the board. Game two I didn't draw anything useful. In the end I had 4 mountains and 4 Rishadan Ports in play. But had not drawn anything that could have swung it in may favour. It was just a matter of time before he had a 5/5 Mauler and 2 Rakdos Pit Dragons in play.

VS LEDless dredge: Lost game 1. Game 2: he put all his goodies in his graveyard without going off. So my Ravenous Trap did it for me. Game 3: I kept Ravenous Trap, Lackey, Matron and 4 lands. He was able to Cabal Therapy my Ravenous Trap, Keep my lackey at bay with Tireless Tribe, and also Cabal Therapy my Matron. I was able to hold out a while but he just was faster. I drew no more hate either.

Piledriver or Chieftain are probably what you want to cut after 1 MWM. imo. I still like my 4 Warchiefs main, since its nice to both tutor for and play a Ringleader in the same turn. Makes you cast multiple spells on one turn - its kinda like a pseudo Vial in my opinion, and they are actually okay in multiples, since Matron, Ringleader, SGC have more colorless manacost.

In general I find Goblins to be a very manahungry deck, add to this that you run waste and port - its nice to be able to waste on turn 4, and STILL play your Ringleader, Port keeping them off goyf-mana mid game, etc... Point is that you almost can't manascrew with goblins, there is just so much to do with that mana, SCG's activated ability, Gempalm, Port, Echo-cost, playing multiple goblins in the same turn. I'd think twice about playing less than 4 Warchiefs. This is ofcourse just arguments from the top of my head - pure theory. I haven't tested or played goblins for a long time.

Next time changes main:
-1 Gempalm Incinerator
+1 Stingscourger

Probably
-1 Chieftain
+1 Warchief

SB:
- 2 Pithing Needle
- 1 Stingscourger
+ 1 Ravenous Trap
+ 1 Tormod's crypt
+ Gempalm Incinerator

So that would make:

1 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
4 Pyrokinesis

Or when I expect a lot of combo (ANT in particular)
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thorn of Amethyst

I've decided not to put in tutorable Goblins (Sharpshooter, Tinkerer) since they need haste to operate and I don't like having to wait another turn if they don't have haste.

@ddt15
I think you mean Goblin Ringleader not Recruiter.

When you want to go with Prospector why not 4 War Marshals and 4 Prospectors? You can cut a Siege-Gang Commander and maybe a Piledriver or Stingscourger.

fyrisen

01-25-2010, 01:53 PM

Joe_C

01-25-2010, 03:20 PM

Put this in the tournament report thread, but I'll toss it here as well:

Took 4th out of 39 at DHG in RI yesterday with this list. Took some sparse notes but if asked I could prbably go into more details:

Here is the gist of it:

3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
15 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ravenous Trap(boarded them in once, and it won me the match)
1 Goblin Tinkerer

Round 1: Ben Lukas playing 43 land

G1: I know what he is playing so I keep an amazing hand against him(in a way) of 3x wasteland, moutainx3 and a lackey. I fail to draw any creatures to attempt to outnumber him, he plays loam over 10 times this game then drops mana bond so I scoop.

Board:-2 instigator,-2 SCG,-2 Fanatic, -1 Stingscourger +3 relic +2 Needle +2 Trap

G2: Turn 1 relic followed by lackey, warchief and another relic. Also trap him after he plays intuition and I pound him in a few turns even though he has tablernacle I had way too much mana at that point for it to matter.

G3: Starts sketchy with him playing a treetop village and me going conservative turn 1 relic, and then getting pounded with treetop a few times. I have no creatures aside from incinerator x2 in my hand and I am holding 2x trap. I play an incinerator from my hand and block treetop next turn and incinerate it to reset the creature count. I end up with matron/piledriver beating for 5. He intuitions for a burn spell with retrace(dont recall name) then he burns piledriver, I cant have that shit coming back so I trap him. I dont remember what creatures I played next, but I took him down by 6. The turn before he played loam and he dredges into good stuff, he goes to play loam and I use my 2nd trap and that ends it since I have lethal for next turn.

1-0,

Round 2:Alex: The mirror:

Game 1 takes 32 minutes. It ends up being pretty much me running 3 SCG and him only running 2, and also me running chieftain and him apparently not,that wins me this. Although he makes a play error late in the game that he tries to take back (playing piledriver and swinging with the team although driver doesnt have haste) I inform him of that fact and he goes to untap all his creatures, and I tell him I cant let him take it back, he is tapped out). In a few turns my extra SCG would have won it anyway so he scoops.

Board: -4 vial,-1 Stingscourger+4 Pyrokinesis, +1 Tinkerer{assuming he keeps vial}(really games 2/3 for the mirror depend on who draws pyrokinesis, it is backbreaking)

G2:He goes turn 1 lackey, I turn 1 fanatic and nail it. He plays a lackey on the next turn. I get stuck on 2 mana and scoop to driver/war marshall/warchief to go to g3 and have time.

G3: Pyrokinesis wins this matchup. I take him from 20 to 8 in one turn after I wipe his creatures with kinesis. Then finish it after he cant play anything big enough to matter

2-0,

Round 3:
Tom with UG Merfolk

G1: I get turn 1 lackey, which gets in there once but I dont really have any juice. He gets ahead with goyf and counters my good stuff. I lose this one.

Board: -2 Instigator, -1 SCG, -2 Fanatic, -2 Stingscourger, +4 Pyrokinesis, +3 Red Elemental Blast

G2: I stick a turn 1 lackey. This time I get a chieftain, then a SCG into play. I win this one quick.

G3: Fast goblins and I think I cast kinesis to nail some blockers, I get ahead quick and he cant catch up.

3-0

Round 4:Steve Playing BANT

G1: I thought I had this game lost, he ends up with hierarch x2, knight of the reliquery and pridemage. I resolve a matron for SCG to make me some blockers. He keeps swinging in at me with knight I block with a token and fling it at pridemage, then a hierarch. I stick a chieftain which gete me lethal, I was at 3, I took him from 13 in one turn.

Board:-2 Instigator, -2 Fanatic, -1 SCG, -1 Stingscourger +4 Pyrokinesis +2 Relic
G2: I start off with a great board wiping on him. I pyrokinesis knight, and a hierarch and put on pressure. He is able to come back with double goyf(after I relic once to get them down, he plays brainstorm after I remove the graves and they live) and I try to swing in to kill him (which leaves me open to die if he can stop a creature)he shows me hydroblast and I cry inside.

G3: They call time after my 2nd turn. We end up drawing since I dont stick a turn 3 win

3-0-1,

Round 5: Eric with Canadian Thresh

Yeah, this matchup is bad. Burn, and nimble mongoose make it a hard time for me. I lose in 2
I boarded in kinesis in this match, but it was a blowout regardless, I dont think unless I turn 3 win, they will beat goblins. Bolt, fire/ice, firespout are all amzing against my deck

3-1-1

Round 6:Josh with UGW Counterbalance with NO(paired down)
Need to win this bitch to get in.

Game 1. Turn 1 Vial. He plays turn 2 counterbalance. I stick turn 2 Instigator, instigator brings in chieftain after he swings and he scoops to much goblins on the board.

Board: -2 Fanatic, -2 Stingscourger(he aint gonna bounce proegnitus, but will bounce wall of roots so I can attack!)-2 Instigator, +4 Pyrokinesis +2 Relic

G2: I keep a poor hand, he ends up resolving turn 5 NO for Progenitus. This card is good I hear.

G3. I get some creatures on board and keep him at zero creatures desperately with incinerator/pyrokinises so he cant cast NO. I am able to beat him fast enough. I guess he had some poor draws.

TOPS 8!!!! YEAH

Top8:Corey Mono U Merfolk

If I could pray for a deck to face, this would have to be it.

G1:I play turn 1 vial. He plays mutavault, vial. I play turn 2 driver. Pass. He plays island go. I EOT vial in lackey. Untap. Swing. He animates vault, I incinerator it before the block. I get SCG off lackey, he scoops.

Board: -2 INstigator, -2 Fanatic -2 Stingscourger,-1 SCG +4 Pyrokinesis +3 Red Elemental Blast
G2: This one goes longer. Pryrokinesis does its job. And wipes reejery and kills some mutavaults after combat since I have 2x chieftain in play. I wasnt dealt damage in either of these games

Top 4

Kyle(fellow team awesome member) with Belcher
G1: I have to mull to 3 because I dont see a colored source for the first 2mulls, then no land on the 3rd. I keep wasteland, mountain, ringleader. I plays bayou, tinder wall. I waste the bayou and play mountain. He wins on his next turn

Board -4 Vial, -2 Fanatic, -2 Instigator +4 Pyrokinesis (to nail tinder wall)+2 Needle. This matchup is just praying they have a shit hand and you nail needle on belcher and that will win it for you.

G2: Turn 1 needle on belcher and some fast goblins wins it.

G3: I mull into turn 1 needle. Put that on belcher. He ends up turn 3 or 4 empty the warrens for 14 tokens. My 4 creatures cant keep up with that. I extend my hand and I take 4th place and take 4 Badlands as a prize.... Guess I will have to start playing duals again since I won some

lillelassie

01-25-2010, 04:14 PM

Joe_C

01-25-2010, 04:34 PM

Thx for report! - any changes you would make to your deck? or sb? any time you felt 3 Stingscourger was to much? It seems like a wide meta, since pretty much a different matchup each round.

also would like to know what you boarded vs each deck - if you remember...

you are welcome! Edited post with Board choices.
I lost in the top 4 since I dont run goblin sharpshooter in my board. Belcher is pretty much the one deck I would actually care about having it in my SB, but its rarely played. If I have the open slot I may run 1 in my board just in case

FoulQ

01-25-2010, 05:00 PM

Banned in Legacy, and you shoul'd consider playing port.

He obviously meant ringleader, seeing as how it is in the 4cc spot, so that comment was unnecessary. Also, playing port is a metagame choice at this point, if you are in a heavy aggro metagame without decks like landstill/rock/countertop it is a lousy call. As to his question about prospector/marshal vs. chieftain/instigator, I don't see how you can reasonably be on the prospector/marshal side. Warchief has always been good not only because of the cost reduction (which is nice), but the haste effect. HASTE makes this deck. Few other decks in legacy can make your opponent forced to leave open a W consistently (blah blah dragon stompy but I said consistently). Chieftain is so so strong, and saying "but the 3cmc slot is clogged" is flawed logic. Anybody who is playing with the new-age 8 1cc drops can tell you that it just takes some practice mulliganing to understand the power of chieftain/instigator.

Instigator is not an auto-include. However, x2-4 instigator, x4 chieftain (x1-2 is mandatory imo), x2-3 siege-gang (x1 is mandatory imo), x2-4 ports, and 5+ removal spots should always be the first considerations when organizing a decklist. I wrote about how I believe the proper way to contsruct a goblins deck in the primer I sent to Bardo, so I'm not going to repeat it now.

Instigator is bad in the aggro matchup most of the time. Yes, the critics have that correct. Mogg War Marshal is better in the aggro matchup than instigator in a vaccuum. The problem I see with some of the card evaluation with legacy decks is looking at it matchup-by-matchup. This is a big picture format, with lots of different archetypes and lots of random shit can happen in a tournament. Mogg War Marshal is best at being a stalling machine with a goblin subtype. He can get interesting with chieftain as well. However, this is not the philosophy this deck should have. You are not always trying to get into the late game. Dropping a turn 2 MWM is pathetic.

I hate to compare to dragon stompy, but I think it is useful. I remember reading that Dragon Stompy is about questions.The deck comes down to, does your opponent have the answers for the questions (and you screwing yourself with improper mulliganing decisions)? Goblins (and to some extent all aggro decks) are similar to this. Can your opponent answer that instigator? Probably. Can he answer a flurry of threats, however, threats that have to be answered immediately because of the haste effect of chieftain? Moreso, can he handle these threats CONSISTENTLY, game after game?

The question vs. answer philosophy is very important to understanding how to play dragon stompy and it is true here as well. The most important part of this theory is understanding that once you have resolved your question, you have to win as quickly as possible to lower the percentage chance of your opponent drawing the necessary answer. MWM and prospector are slow rolling. You can say "MWM gives us 3 potential turns against tarmogoyf 5 + 5 + 5 that's 15 life!!"

But how does goblins win? Goblins wins when your questions go the distance. Questions in dragon stompy are like leviathians. They are fucking huge, but the deck can have trouble applying pressure consistently. In goblins, our questions are like Usain Bolt short-distance runners BECAUSE of 6-8 haste effects. We might not have macho body-builder threats (aka super large questions), but the opponent will have little time to draw their answer to our questions. The more of these Usain Bolts we play, the less likely the opponent will be able to handle this. These questions come in different forms in different matchups: against merfolk, it is piledriver. Against zoo, the best threat is card advantage, matron/ringleader.

tl;dr, Goblins wins when it forces the opponent into answer mode. This seems really simple, doesn't it? But MWM and prospector don't force our opponent into answer mode. An instigator connection is feared like Bird Flu. If our opponent is unable to establish board control because they are forced to QUICKLY answer our questions, then we have already won. Tacked onto this is a strong late game card advantage engine, putting this deck in the DTB forum.

@ddt15: my biggest concern with your list is simple, 21 lands and 3 SGCs is a bad idea.

@JoeC: I would stay away from sharpshooter. I believe it was Media who said it best (can't remember who it was but I think it was him), when he said about sharpshooter, it will win 1 game but it will suck 1000 others when you imagine it being a chieftain or something related. I know an old player of the deck who goes by nickrit2000 on the source played it because of survival, but that's because killing BoP and rofellos and etc. is important to stopping those decks. Sharpshooter is a horrible tempo sink and I believe the fact that you have to time walk yourself to play him makes him go against the general philosophy of this deck. Oh and that he kills like 3 things in the format.

My thoughts are very unorganized, I know, but I thought I'd share them because people playing cards like prospector really concerns me. MWM is good in an aggro metagame but I would play instigator over him almost any day.

Joe_C

01-25-2010, 06:29 PM

I didnt exactly say I was going to run sharpshooter, I wouldnt exactly make room for him at the moment but if the meta shifted and I had a SB slot open for him, he could prove useful in some situations. In retrospect, I played the singleton tinkerer and didnt cast him once, and if he would have been sharpshooter in my board I would have top 2'd instead of top4. But like you said, he doesnt kill enough in the format at the moment (although I see an asston of BANT and keeping hierarch off the board is good) to really justify playing him. Since I won Badlands I am going to try a black splash the next time I play. That helps my weak combo matchup and earwig is just incredible against just about everything.

I entirely agreee with your points on instigator. The only time he felt really good to me is when im on the draw and I purposely walk a lackey into daze just to land him next turn. I boarded him out in half of my matchups this weekend. I kind of consider him as a card I love seeing but dont mind getting rid of at all for g2/3. Im looking to play black splash in the next tournament since I expect to see more show and tell, NO decks and perish out of the board is just amazing in my meta.. Here is my starting point, anyone with reasonable input please chime in:

4 [TE] Wasteland
9 [P2] Mountain (1)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Warren Weirding
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [TE] Perish

Im not sold on port in the black splash... The deck seems way more mana hungry than mono red. Fanatic in multiples is to get in for damage so I can prowl earwig. Aside from the general opinion that fanatic sucks, he still gets the job done when I need him to.

jrsthethird

01-26-2010, 08:22 AM

Joe_C

01-26-2010, 08:29 AM

I just got accpeted to post here and I don't have time to go over the Rb decklist I made a few days ago to test, but when I was looking around earlier I was wondering why I didn't see anyone playing Boggart Harbinger in their black-splash builds. He's the same as Goblin Matron but 2 power instead of 1.

Harbringer takes the card just to the top of your library. This makes for a poor substitute for matron. It wouldnt be worth running along with matron sice more tutors isnt what the deck needs

arebennian

01-26-2010, 09:35 AM

Joe_C

01-26-2010, 10:37 AM

Quest for the Goblin Lord
CMC = R
Enchantment
Whenever a Goblin enters the battlefield under your control, you may put a quest counter on Quest for the Goblin Lord.
As long as Quest for the Goblin Lord has five or more counters on it, creatures you control get +2/+0.

Shame it takes 5 and shame it isn't Tribal!

Someone mentioned Earwig Squad.

Has to be combat damage. From the sound of your post it sounds like you are swarming around but I just thought I would make sure sure you know.

I would like to know what other people's opinions are on Earwig Squad.
1)Does he come down to late to help in the Combo matchups? What matchups does he shine in?
2)Does the need to connect really hurt him?
3)Does Warchief's reduction include his prowl cost?

I know it needs to be combat damage to prowl, hence why I said "get in for damage"

As for Earwig:
1) If you are boarding in duress, or at least some form of discard it is your best t1 play. Even with the black splash the combo match is shaky at best, although you stand a larger fighting chance with earwig/duress etc... You need to slow them down as much as you can and get the kill as quick as possible.... As for other matchups him taking natural order of 3 of their 4 goyfs is pretty damn good. It also lets you look through their entire library so you get to be prepared for what they may have in their hand etc.....

2) If you didnt need to connect he would be a way more expensive card I would think, but at least in my build with 7 1cc creatures and plenty of chances to deal damage within the first few turns is highly likely

3) Yes.... With squad the absolute nut high play is turn 1 lackey, turn 2 swing and connect, lackey in warchief, prowl earwig..... When they came out with Earwig I almost couldnt believe they made a goblin with the P/T of Juggernaut and Jester's Cap ability.

All that said, your meta should be what decides on you running Rb, Rg, or Mono red Goblins. My meta is starting to shift over to alot of Aggro control, Show and Tell, Enchantress. The black splash has a good edge in that meta change, so I play on giving it a shot

Nelis

01-26-2010, 10:45 AM

Round 2:Alex: The mirror:

Although he makes a play error late in the game that he tries to take back (playing piledriver and swinging with the team although driver doesnt have haste) I inform him of that fact and he goes to untap all his creatures, and I tell him I cant let him take it back, he is tapped out).

And he didn't call a judge? I'm not saying you're wrong per definition but if I were him I would definitely call a judge. It seems like an illegal attack so in my opinion he has to take it back and then decide how many creatures he want to attack with (0 if he really does not want to attack).

jrsthethird

01-26-2010, 12:11 PM

Harbringer takes the card just to the top of your library. This makes for a poor substitute for matron. It wouldnt be worth running along with matron sice more tutors isnt what the deck needs

Wow all this time I thought Matron put it on top of the library too. That helps a lot then. Maybe I should read the cards more!

Has anyone tested Slavering Nulls, or was this just speculation?

What do you guys think of Boggart Mob? I was paying around with him and he looks amazing. A 5/5 for 4 can take care of most Goyfs (even better if you have Chieftan), and his ability is nothing to sneeze at (more goblins if you connect with combat damage). I think where he really shines is, in addition to the huge body and token threat, which hurts your opponent enough, you have at least 10 goblins with ETB abilities that you can champion to get an extra trigger. Ideally you can champion a SGC, Ringleader, or Matron to get even better card advantage out of him. Also a great Vial drop mid-combat, after they declare blocks. You can "save" a guy from dying and surprise your opponent with extra tokens.

Hunter245

01-26-2010, 12:58 PM

Here goes the discussion again! xD

But on Boggart Mob, wouldn't Lightning Crafter Do the same thing as this guy?

I'm very excited Mono Red got a reliable goblin tinkerer in the form of the new ally.

Tuktuk Scrapper 3R
Creature - Goblin Artificer Ally

Whenever Tuktuk Scrapper or another Ally enters the battlefield under your control, you may destroy target artifact. If that artifact is put into a graveyard this way, Tuktuk Scrapper deals damage equal to the number of Allies you control to that artifact's controller. 2/2

This was long overdue. Will be a singleton that players will have the option of running.

I also like to applaud FoulQ on typing out that insight.

Now I have a question for goblin players. In a Zoo infested meta, I was wondering if tinkering your list to make this match-up winnable was possible. Or is it the same situation as Combo, Board alot or do not board at all?

jrsthethird

01-26-2010, 01:17 PM

Here goes the discussion again! xD

But on Boggart Mob, wouldn't Lightning Crafter Do the same thing as this guy?

So I'm guessing I missed out on a hefty Crafter vs. Mob debate?

Just looking at the benefits of championing, yeah, but so would Changeling Berserker! I played with the Berserker a little bit but thought that the Mob had more upside; I totally forgot about the Crafter at the time so no opinions there. I think the Crafter would only be good if he were guaranteed to always have haste, but that isn't the case. The mob is always good for the reasons I laid out earlier. The argument for the Berserker I see is that he plays like a Ball Lightning (sans trample). Regardless of whether you or not you have a Chieftan/Warchief, he will always be able to swing the turn he comes down. Your opponent won't be able to chump him every turn, he'll eventually have to trade or spend removal on him, giving you more card advantage. Crafter doesn't get into the red zone as well as Mob or Berserker, so if you want to abuse championing, he has to shoot himself, leaving you down at least a card compared to the other 2 champion creatures. I guess he has his upside as well but I think he's the worst of the 3.

I'm very excited Mono Red got a reliable goblin tinkerer in the form of the new ally.

Tuktuk Scrapper 3R
Creature - Goblin Artificer Ally

Whenever Tuktuk Scrapper or another Ally enters the battlefield under your control, you may destroy target artifact. If that artifact is put into a graveyard this way, Tuktuk Scrapper deals damage equal to the number of Allies you control to that artifact's controller. 2/2

This was long overdue. Will be a singleton that players will have the option of running.

I glazed over this card without realizing it was a Goblin. He's really good.

What do you guys use against Counterbalance if you don't splash G/W?

Hunter245

01-26-2010, 01:37 PM

It's just this thread is in a constant state of repetition. Not that there was a huge debate, but some things have been dismissed.

Now on to Counterbalance, even with goblins running more two drops then it has ever done in the past, Usually I'm never worried about a counterbalance. Plus Most players like to board them out against goblins.

Slavering Nulls has to be compared to Frogtosser, and really the only goblin that connects early is lackey because he is pregoyf, I'd Run Frogtosser any day of the week over The slave.

Joe_C

01-26-2010, 02:44 PM

Now I have a question for goblin players. In a Zoo infested meta, I was wondering if tinkering your list to make this match-up winnable was possible. Or is it the same situation as Combo, Board alot or do not board at all?

I dont think the matchup is unwinnable at all. The previous tournament I played in before this past weekend I faced zoo in my first round and won in G3 with it going to turns and I finished the game at 20 life, and me actually taking him to zero on turn 3 of "extra turns". In the black splash I am considering Mad Auntie instead of chieftain. The 1 less colored mana investment seems appealing, the loss of haste lords 5-7 seems like an iffy trade off, but the regenerative ability seems really useful in a format where goblins pretty much block everything. In a zoo infested meta Auntie seems like a good choice. I need a way to block goyf and not lose creatures every turn. Also, perish out of the board is really good against zoo.

FoulQ

01-26-2010, 04:12 PM

A few things.

Quest of the Goblin Lord or whatever is called is horrible beyond belief and you shouldn't even bother testing it.

I'm interested in what happens with Tuktuk Scrapper. You guys seem to think he is good. However, I think he is bad. We are trading 3R for an artifact that will usually cost less than that. Are we really in a metagame that infested with jitte? Then why are we not splashing green for tin street? If Tuktuk Scrapper is playable in any build of 75, I think the better move is to play TSH.

If you have ever played extensively with Tin Street Hooligan, I think you can attest to this. Tin Street is probably the most underplayed card in this deck. How do you win the mirror match? Chieftain + TSH + more lands. How do you make merfolk unloseable? Piledriver + Monored or Piledriver + Tin Street (both have positives and negatives). How do you deal with the slew of random creature aggro-control decks like UBr Faeries, Bant Survival, ProgTop, etc?

TSH is great because TSH is a tempo beast. Any metagame with an overpresence of vial and/or jitte (they come hand-in-hand often) is a metagame for tin street. If you have never tested him before, you are missing out. He is the only reliable answer to jitte in any configuration of 75 for this deck ever.

I can't entirelly dismiss Scrapper though. For now I think he looks pretty unplayable, but I'll give him a month to prove himself.

About Earwig Squad, I'm really disappointed that the search function on the new forums isn't seeming to work properly for me. If anybody knows what I am doing wrong, let me know, because it is only showing posts in my search that have been done since the forum switch. This is very disappointing, as I have always been a big fan of this feature. If it ever starts working again, I strongly advocate searching for cards before asking questions about them. Not only because discussion has already been done, but because a lot of the best goblins players don't post in here anymore. I'm talking about people like Eldariel, Nickrit2000 (although he could be pretentious at times), Tacosnape, among others. The deck isn't going through the spurt of innovation as it did back then when the deck was much more popular and the metagame shifts more directly impacted the deck. As far as Earwig goes, I don't remember who it was, but one of the older players mentioned it was bad. I stand by this as well. If I could search I would point it out better. It doesn't do enough. It is too conditional. It is best as a secondary answer to heavy plague hate and against decks like landstill where a resolved moat is gg for the black splash. The other major problem with it is that it is incompatible with the boarding decisions you will have to make. Oftentimes, fanatic will come out for squad. Well, he is one of the best enablers of squad. Squad is CLUNKY as fuck, and when I tested him a lot back around his release, he was almost always bad as an answer to goyf or other cards that we think are the problem but not really. If you are playing Earwig for non-combo or non-moat/humility reasons, then you are doing it wrong. We are always looking for answers to goyf, answers to wild nacatl, etc. But we are not looking at the big picture. Goyf is not the problem, he is just the most identifiable (because he was/is the final) nail in the coffin. We have to attack the core engine of the deck if we want to defeat those decks.

And if you ARE playing earwig for combo, that's a metagame choice. But I don'tthink diluting the manabase for conditional combo hate is worth it when there are plenty of equal options available to us in monored.

Many people have tested Boggart Mob, and many people have agreed, it is bad and mainly win-more.

I'm interested in what happens with Slavering Nulls if anybody tests him, and the red ETBT land that would replace soaring seacliffs in the experimental 8lackey 4stingscourger build. I don't have much time for testing but I would like to hear how it goes if anybody gets a chance.

Finally, counterbalance can be a problem if you don't play around it right. It is bad against us because of our curve obviously, but another thing: this deck preys on losses in tempo from the opponent. It is what makes us have a winning shot against a deck like aggro loam. Aggro loam would be unwinnable if they didn't have to tap out and wait a turn to actually get that seismic assault rolling, wait a turn for their crusher to get huge, etc. Counterbalance is similar, its impact is powerful (and can be against us), but it is such a tempo sink (especially with top) that they can't afford to jerk off to themselves against goblins, not when we are playing 6-8 haste effects and 6-8 lackey effects preboard. Well, I suppose if you cut those, then nevermind, you are making almost every competitive matchup worse.

And the zoo matchup takes some practice. Knowing you are the control deck is the first obvious part. Knowing when to interact with your opponent and when to set up the card advantage engine is the second. If you are unfamiliar with the matchup, I would just learn to play zoo a little on MWS or something, then play zoo vs goblins yourself 10 or so times, and you should get the jist of what needs to be done, as long as you are actively analyzing what is happening in the gamestate. Moving on to further testing from there may be necessary depending on your meta. But knowing how to play the zoo matchup with goblins not only allows you a better percentage against zoo, but it has helped me in almost every matchup in understanding the big picture of what goblins must do. Along with playing against Nassiftop, I think those two matchups teach you how to play this deck (even if Nassiftop doesn't even see that much play in today's meta).

Joe_C

01-26-2010, 04:29 PM

FoulQ: Although I do admit Earwig can be clunky, in my meta he seems quite reasonable. There is an uprising of enchantress, natural order decks, and show and tell is at least making a slew of appearances. For reference here is my black splash list as it stands now ( I did make changes already from the list I posted earlier)

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
9 [P2] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
2 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
2 [LRW] Mad Auntie
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Warren Weirding
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [TE] Perish

As I mentioned a few posts ago, Mad Auntie seems like a really solid choice against the goyfs out there. With this build I have 6 haste lords and 4 +1/+1 lords. Weirding is becoming almost a necessary evil in my meta since Loyal Retainers/Iona is getting popular and Progenitus is very present, although I did escape those matches this past weekend aside from the one Natural Order Thresh deck I played against, but that match is all racing them hitting double green and a creature when playing mono red. I could easily move the earwigs to the board so I can put the 2nd weirding back in the main and go to auntie #3.

I agree Quest for the ..... seems pretty terrible....

from Cairo

01-26-2010, 05:46 PM

Also worth noting Earwig is really solid against Loam strategies which are sort of making a come back. It's often easy for Goblins to swarm around those decks early defenses, so it can be prowled in to cut them off utility or the engine if they hadn't gotten it online yet.

johanessen

01-26-2010, 06:16 PM

What about the new land that makes unblockable?

DCTopTeam

01-26-2010, 09:48 PM

Quest for the Goblin Lord R

Enchantment
Whenever a Goblin enters the battlefield under your control, you may put a quest counter on Quest for the Goblin Lord.
As long as Quest for the Goblin Lord has five or more counters on it, creatures you control get +2/+0.

Would this get a play. I think its worth a try. It might be a nice back up plan after a mass removal. Drawing crappy 1/1s after gettng EE'd is a problem for this deck. With this I think drawing 2/2s, or 1/1s with five quest counters on QGL would no longer be crappy.

Hunter245

01-26-2010, 10:19 PM

Even if I play as the control deck in the zoo matchup things never end up good for me. Even with Mogg-Warmarshals and Stingscourgers. I have tested the matchup but it seems everyone gets the god draw. I feel like my deck should do better against zoo then it currently does. Maybe winning the die roll would help the match tremondously. If you feel like the Mono-red list is capable of beating zoo theI will continue to test. Maybe if I Find my notes from my previous testing against zoo i can post it.

On the ally, he is bad it's just a lil better then Tinkerer as a 1 of. I understand Tin-Street is amazing in the mirror but its just another option. I mean how good can a ally be xD.

I was curious that those who splash for black, is not running fetchlands terrible. I mean Not opening yourself to stifle may be worth it. Wastelock is a little bit more painful, but 5t's just an idea that ran through my head

jrsthethird

01-26-2010, 10:52 PM

Avatara

01-26-2010, 11:10 PM

So question with the Hooligan...If you have a Warchief out, it is impossible to spend G to play him, right? So why is he so good? Do you make every other card in your deck worse by not playing Warchief?

Or am I looking at this wrong?

He doesn't work with Warchief, Aether Vial, Lackey or Instigator. Not to mention that you have to splash green for no obvious other reasons...

The new ally does work with all above mentioned cards, becomes 3/3 haste 3R (+1 damage) with Chieftain, 2/2 Haste for 2R (+1 damage) with Warchief, and he doesn't require 6-8 fetch lands and 2-4 non basic lands. 4 mana is also useful seeing how we almost always put 4 counters on our Vial because of Ringleader. Finally he's also nuts vs Stax type decks when combined with Kiki-Jiki.

I dunno why people think that this card isn't superior to Tinker and Hooligan...

jrsthethird

01-27-2010, 12:04 AM

Exactly. I was testing with a couple maindeck Hooligans and ran into a situation where I needed him but had Warchief out. I was obviously very disappointed. I was never a fan of Tinkerer since I feel like he's too slow. I don't want to wait a turn without a haste effect on board.

What is the general opinion of Krosan Grip? I'm not very experienced with Legacy but as far as I can see the only really prevalent enchantment is Counterbalance (I've seen Survival of the Fittest once, but GY hate helps to stop their Squee shenanigans). If CB is usually sided out anyway and other enchantments aren't a big part of the format, I see no reason to run green now that this guy is available.

FoulQ

01-27-2010, 12:11 AM

Well, I among others, including a lot of respected players, have ran TSH since it was released when the metagame warrants it, and if you look back in the thread history, you can see that tin street hooligan is a very viable card. The tempo gain from Tin Street is enormous. If you have warchief out, you are probably already winning, and this is a very important part, because tin street is a card that is good both as a tempo tool or as a safety valve once you've lost your stuff like warchief to jittes. Tinkerer, on the other hand, is a tempo sink, and can't kill jittes/vials the turn he comes into play, which plays a huge role obviously. If you splashed green you would also get the versatility of krosan grip and could run a lot more hoser cards such as choke if you really wanted to. The green splash is very viable, and tin street is a good card.

I am confused why Tuktuk Scrapper is getting all this love when he costs 3R. The only must-kill artifact is jitte. Do you really want to invest 3R to destroy vials, mox diamonds, tops, etc? With TSH, he is not only reliable artifact removal, he's a reliable artifact killer AND a tempo gain. Tinkerer and Tuktuk (because of his high mana cost) do not offer this.

I can't stress enough that the interaction between warchief and TSH is negligible. And I'm not saying the green splash is superior, I was making a comparison of TSH to Tuktuk: if I felt Tuktuk was good enough for my 75, that means I have a major artifact problem, which means I would rather run TSH and splash green. The green splash does not play the black splash. It is basically monored. I think it is very important that we don't become narrowminded with our splashes. Certain ones are better in certain metagames, including the green splash.

arebennian

01-27-2010, 03:00 AM

About Earwig Squad, I'm really disappointed that the search function on the new forums isn't seeming to work properly for me. If anybody knows what I am doing wrong, let me know, because it is only showing posts in my search that have been done since the forum switch. This is very disappointing, as I have always been a big fan of this feature. If it ever starts working again, I strongly advocate searching for cards before asking questions about them. Not only because discussion has already been done, but because a lot of the best goblins players don't post in here anymore. I'm talking about people like Eldariel, Nickrit2000 (although he could be pretentious at times), Tacosnape, among others. The deck isn't going through the spurt of innovation as it did back then when the deck was much more popular and the metagame shifts more directly impacted the deck. As far as Earwig goes, I don't remember who it was, but one of the older players mentioned it was bad. I stand by this as well. If I could search I would point it out better. It doesn't do enough. It is too conditional. It is best as a secondary answer to heavy plague hate and against decks like landstill where a resolved moat is gg for the black splash. The other major problem with it is that it is incompatible with the boarding decisions you will have to make. Oftentimes, fanatic will come out for squad. Well, he is one of the best enablers of squad. Squad is CLUNKY as fuck, and when I tested him a lot back around his release, he was almost always bad as an answer to goyf or other cards that we think are the problem but not really. If you are playing Earwig for non-combo or non-moat/humility reasons, then you are doing it wrong. We are always looking for answers to goyf, answers to wild nacatl, etc. But we are not looking at the big picture. Goyf is not the problem, he is just the most identifiable (because he was/is the final) nail in the coffin. We have to attack the core engine of the deck if we want to defeat those decks.

I searched the tread before the recent switch to the new software and I failed to find any reasonable grounds for him being average other than 'He's bad'.
So cheers for the rundown.

Frank The Tank

01-27-2010, 07:33 PM

My brother runs a mono red version of this deck and he scooped to enchantress. Does the mono red version have any answers or options or do you just chalk it up to a bad match up?

FoulQ

01-27-2010, 08:29 PM

My brother runs a mono red version of this deck and he scooped to enchantress. Does the mono red version have any answers or options or do you just chalk it up to a bad match up?

I would have a hard time imagining really needing to metagame a deck towards enchantress, but we have a few options.Warren Weirding and Earwig Squad for the wincons is probably your best bet. However, a well-placed Krosan Grip can help, and you could run Tranquil Domain too (though that is much narrower than the black splash). And if you don't want to splash, there is always Anarchy and the secret tech of Aura Barbs!!

Also you might try grave hate out of the SB to surprise them from replenishing. I haven't really played this matchup because I'm not going to waste time testing it if it such a small percentage of the field (although I do really like the deck's matchups). However, things change, and it could become popular later.

Frank The Tank

01-27-2010, 08:35 PM

Well since the Star City legacy tourneys have been kicking in enchantress has been creeping up there bit by bit.

HPB_Eggo

01-27-2010, 09:09 PM

I am confused why Tuktuk Scrapper is getting all this love when he costs 3R. The only must-kill artifact is jitte. Do you really want to invest 3R to destroy vials, mox diamonds, tops, etc? With TSH, he is not only reliable artifact removal, he's a reliable artifact killer AND a tempo gain. Tinkerer and Tuktuk (because of his high mana cost) do not offer this.

There is one good reason, not counting the drawback of running two colors, to run Scrapper over TSH: if you Vial/Lackey/Instigator it into play, it still destroys things. TSH doesn't do this. My guess is that the builds with 4 Lackey/4 Instigator/4 Vial would probably do better to run Scrapper over TSH.

alphastorm

01-28-2010, 01:21 AM

do players still run mogg fanatic?

FoulQ

01-28-2010, 01:22 AM

There is one good reason, not counting the drawback of running two colors, to run Scrapper over TSH: if you Vial/Lackey/Instigator it into play, it still destroys things. TSH doesn't do this. My guess is that the builds with 4 Lackey/4 Instigator/4 Vial would probably do better to run Scrapper over TSH.

My biggest gripe with this is is that you have an active vial in play, or a lackey/instigator connecting, you are already ahead. I agree that Tuktuk might be playable as a 1 or 2 of sideboard for monored in metagames where artifacts are a problem. I'm not saying that we should play TSH, I actually think monored is the best right now in generalized metagames followed by RB. What I'm saying is that if artifacts are really a problem enough to warrant Tuktuk Scrapper, then I would rather splash green and run Tin Street Hooligan, one of the most underrated goblins ever.

Artifact and Enchantment removal has always been a safety valve for goblins. It has never been a proactive strategy. This is what makes goblin tinkerer not that great. Therefore, we should be assessing artifact/enchantment removal from a spot of being in a bad position. Krosan grip is great in this position, but not the best: it still costs 2G, a significant investment for goblins. Losing a turn to cast a spell without an immediate effect on the game state is always a ballbuster in goblins. That's why I believe moon effects, choke, etc. have never really been that good in the deck. If they are countered, losing that turn is much more crushing than if say, Eva Green spent a turn to play choke, because turn 3 is a very fundamental and strategic turn for our deck where we need to maximize the tempo gains that comes with the synergy of hasty cheaty goblins. Anyways, krosan grip is good in a losing position, sometimes: tin street hooligan (as long as not manascrewed) is great in a losing position. It kills off the problematic artifact and gives us a free 2/1. In addition, on turn 5 (the turn after they play and equip jitte), we can matron-->TSH.

But honestly, this argument is not that important, and I meant to compare TSH vs Tuktuk Scrapper as simply if I was to play artifact removal, which would imply a slightly wacky metagame. As of now, I'm running 0 artifact removal in my 75. And I'm not trying to be extremely defiant in my point in saying Tuktuk is bad. It will take time to properly evaluate the card, but I think the bigger question is, do we need to even have artifact removal? It's similar to the debate about treasure hunt in 43lands: sweet, draw a bunch of cards! But is that the angle the deck should really be approaching?

....
....
ETA:
Mogg Fanatic...
Like Morbid- said below, his biggest application is ichorid.

One other thing that mogg fanatic does well is kill dark confidant. If there is a lot of him in your metagame, I would consider running some mogg fanatics. Confidant seems like just another dinky card advantage engine at first glance, but if you analyze games where dark confidant is play, you can see that card is absolutely devastating against goblins. Any game where a confidant generates significant card advantage against goblins is a loss, because they are able to catch up to your fast pace of "questions" with an equally fast pace of "answers," and once the confidant player takes care of a few key cards, it becomes easy for them.

Also, he helps smooth the curve a little bit too, and is useful against grim lavamancer and silvergill adept/cursecatcher (surprisingly relevant). I would not make the argument that he is "nuts with sharpshooter," because he isn't even if you are playing 4 fanatics in today's meta. One other card that has become very popular is noble hierarch, a common natural order target, and he pings that thing to death. In combination with ports/wastes you can deal significant blow to a NO-supreme blue list.

Some people play him, but personally I'm more into instigators and chieftains in those spots.

Mark Sun

01-28-2010, 01:27 AM

do players still run mogg fanatic?

Ichorid - DTW

I put 2 in my list recently so that whenever I do feel like playing it, I can maybe steal a g1 against Ichorid, or at the very least, slow them down. Its popularity is rising, so it's not such a bad option.

Also, regarding Scrapper in Mono-R, I would still play Tinkerer. Never tried the G splash either for TSH, but offered the chance for a splash I would rather head in the B direction for (aforementioned by FoulQ) Earwig, Weirding, and support cards like Mad Auntie.

jrsthethird

01-28-2010, 02:00 AM

My biggest gripe with this is is that you have an active vial in play, or a lackey/instigator connecting, you are already ahead. I agree that Tuktuk might be playable as a 1 or 2 of sideboard for monored in metagames where artifacts are a problem. I'm not saying that we should play TSH, I actually think monored is the best right now in generalized metagames followed by RB. What I'm saying is that if artifacts are really a problem enough to warrant Tuktuk Scrapper, then I would rather splash green and run Tin Street Hooligan, one of the most underrated goblins ever.

Artifact and Enchantment removal has always been a safety valve for goblins. It has never been a proactive strategy. This is what makes goblin tinkerer not that great. Therefore, we should be assessing artifact/enchantment removal from a spot of being in a bad position. Krosan grip is great in this position, but not the best: it still costs 2G, a significant investment for goblins. Losing a turn to cast a spell without an immediate effect on the game state is always a ballbuster in goblins. That's why I believe moon effects, choke, etc. have never really been that good in the deck. If they are countered, losing that turn is much more crushing than if say, Eva Green spent a turn to play choke, because turn 3 is a very fundamental and strategic turn for our deck where we need to maximize the tempo gains that comes with the synergy of hasty cheaty goblins. Anyways, krosan grip is good in a losing position, sometimes: tin street hooligan (as long as not manascrewed) is great in a losing position. It kills off the problematic artifact and gives us a free 2/1. In addition, on turn 5 (the turn after they play and equip jitte), we can matron-->TSH.

But honestly, this argument is not that important, and I meant to compare TSH vs Tuktuk Scrapper as simply if I was to play artifact removal, which would imply a slightly wacky metagame. As of now, I'm running 0 artifact removal in my 75. And I'm not trying to be extremely defiant in my point in saying Tuktuk is bad. It will take time to properly evaluate the card, but I think the bigger question is, do we need to even have artifact removal?

Isn't an active Jitte basically gg against us? We have no way to get rid of the Jitte other than the aforementioned cards. I haven't tested enough, so this is just speculation, but whenever I've seen Jitte in other matchups that rely on lots of small critters, when it's active, it's a huge uphill battle. I would think spending a lot to be able to kill a Jitte would be a good call regardless of your metagame.

And on turn 5 if we have a Warchief effect we can play Matron for Tuk Tuk and play it to kill the Jitte.

I guess the inability of Warchief and TSH to work together really turns me off to the Hooligan. Plus, I'm trying to run RB so I should probably stay out of the Hooligan debate to be able to focus better on 2 colors. And I guess I can run Earwig and Duress in the SB to help eliminate the threat of a Jitte before it happens.

FoulQ

01-28-2010, 02:16 AM

Isn't an active Jitte basically gg against us? We have no way to get rid of the Jitte other than the aforementioned cards. I haven't tested enough, so this is just speculation, but whenever I've seen Jitte in other matchups that rely on lots of small critters, when it's active, it's a huge uphill battle. I would think spending a lot to be able to kill a Jitte would be a good call regardless of your metagame.

And on turn 5 if we have a Warchief effect we can play Matron for Tuk Tuk and play it to kill the Jitte.

I guess the inability of Warchief and TSH to work together really turns me off to the Hooligan. Plus, I'm trying to run RB so I should probably stay out of the Hooligan debate to be able to focus better on 2 colors. And I guess I can run Earwig and Duress in the SB to help eliminate the threat of a Jitte before it happens.

Have you ever tested TSH? It is very obvious who has tested him, because people who haven't always mention the disynergy with warchief. We have to recall that artifact removal in goblins has to be a reactive strategy, not a proactive strategy, and we must evaluate it from a losing position. In a losing position, you will not have a warchief. So your dream scenario is almost impossible.

An active jitte is very much a problem. I've rarely won games where an active jitte is doing its thing. However, it often does not have an immediate effect and we can take advantage of the tempo sink it creates with goblins. The problem most of the time is that jitte is often a complementary strategy in the deck's that play him. Boarding in Tuktuk's solely for jitte is unwise. I have tried a variation of many things: tinkerer, krosan grip, pithing needle, and even jitte itself. They all sucked if you are boarding them for just jitte and/or vial (except against goblins, where tinkerer is pretty good). However, tin street is definitely boardable if the deck is playing jitte and/or vial, because those matches tempo is very important (as it is in many legacy matchups involving creatures). Some decks are more reliant on jitte and this philosophy may not apply to them, such as Angel Stompy and the new UW Tempo deck, but I have never really had to play those decks.

The best answer to jitte is not artifact removal, it is pyrokinesis. Pyrokinesis should be a 3-of, oftentimes 4-of in every goblins sideboard in a generalized metagame. It complements the deck's strategy better than any other card. I would say snuff out has potential too, but I haven't tested the card very much and it inhibits our strategy to play the control role against decks packing jitte.

I also think it is a very bad mindset to "focus" on a splash. Look at the countertop players. They are very adaptive: sometimes running NO bant, sometimes running confidant, etc, depending on the expected metagame. You can prefer a splash (I prefer monored), but I often don't decide what splash I plan on running till right before the tournament or the day of the tournament. Having access to duals/fetches can make this impossible, but all of us have at least the monored stuff and most of us seem to have the black splash at the ready. Why force yourself into a splash? The black splash is very underperforming against merfolk and zoo in comparison to monored/Rg/Rw, and they are IMO the two most popular decks in legacy.

To sum up the jitte argument, I think it is much more complex than at first glance. Our focus is narrow-minded on dealing with the jitte itself. We have to look at the strategy of the decks that play jitte. I draw a comparison to tempo thresh: how can their bounce/cliques possibly be effective answers to the cards they are supposed to answer? Because their deck is built to prey on the tempo sinks of the other deck, and goblins does this is in a similar way. Do we really need artifact removal? That big of a mana/time investment is often a waste, and I do think that if you are having a problem with jitte, pyrokinesis tends to be the best answer.

Forbiddian

01-28-2010, 03:22 AM

@ FoulQ: Since you mentioned UW Tempo, and I can say for sure that boarding in more artifact removal that doesn't help (basically confirm what you said).

TSH can be good at removing Vial or an early Jitte without equip. Both can be helpful, but once Jitte has already gotten a counter set, TSH won't be a good answer, and the sorcery speed prevents it from stopping Jiquip (which is definitely the application method of choice). Jitte will kill the TSH and another card, making it a 2:1 that maybe cost a mana tempo depending on where the other -1/-1 counter went.

You're better off trying to find a way to win instead of playing bad cards that can help you prolong a game where your opponent already got use out of his Jitte. Certainly cards like Krosan Grip which cost a million and don't do anything without an opposing Jitte (and even then only net you one mana tempo) aren't good answers.

Every deck sporting Jitte is going to have at least 15 or 16 creatures. Even if you stop the Jitte, if it cost you too many resources, they will be able to control the board without Jitte. It might seem like Jitte is the cause of the loss because of how quickly it makes the game unwinnable for Goblins, but if your opponent has the time to dig out 4 mana and he's able to change Jitte (i.e. your crackback isn't fatal or very damaging), he's probably happy with his board position already.

Pyrokinesis is much better of an answer for Jitte/Vial than even TSH (which is the only playable of the artifact killers in terms of not sucking completely and handling Jitte). If you can't get solid board control by frying 4 toughness worth of dudes, then you're not going to win that game even if you can answer the Jitte. Oh, and Pyro can stop Jiquip at least for a turn (or two if you roast all his guys). This can buy you time to develop the fatal alpha strike.

dearleader

01-28-2010, 04:49 AM

I want to echo the previous sentiments about playing against Jitte.

While the merfolk MU is in our favor, builds with Jitte that can vomit out lords can get tricky at times. Games where Jitte is played actually come down to who has Vial out. If they don't, then Jitte can actually retard their development; they spend 1 turn to cast a creature, and 1 or 2 turns to play and equip jitte. Realistically, these turns are around 2-5, depending on their draws and plays. Meanwhile, it takes you 1R on turn 4-5 to kill their equipped creature with an incinerator, or bounce their creature with stingscourger. And some games you can build up a strong board so quickly that attacking with Jitte opens them up to an alpha strike. I feel this should be the general approach to dealing with Jitte (other than in the Zoo MU, but Jitte is the least of your problems there).

As an aside, I recently won a game in a cube draft against a Jitte for n turns. The key is removal and board position. If you manage to out tempo them with removal and develop a strong board position (both possible in the mono-red build), you can even create an instance where it's disadvantageous for them to attack with Jitte.

jrsthethird

01-28-2010, 11:29 AM

@foulq I didn't look at it that way. I'll see how much jitte comes up in testing before I decide on artifact hate.

Joe_C

01-29-2010, 12:26 PM

I kind of give goblin tinkerer and pithing needle in combination as a strong anti artifact package. With chieftain in the deck tinkerer becomes better than ever and needle gets down earlier and shuts off anything you need it to... If playing mono red again my board would likely be:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast

Forbiddian

01-30-2010, 07:51 PM

I'm also using pithing needle as a 3of in my sideboard, but I hate it. I'm trying out anarchy right now as a 2of to see how it goes, but I don't have much time for testing because of the whole college thing and me not being smart enough to get good grades without studying a lot.

One random trick I'd like to point out. If your opponent is playing daze and you have a warchief in play, think about this trick. Say you have 5 lands in play and an SGC in your hand as well as a warchief in play, and you are suspecting daze from your opponent. Tap all 5 lands and play SGC. There is a decent chance your opponent will daze it, in which case you pay the one R you have floating in your mana pool to pay for daze's cost.

Again -- That's cheating.

You have to declare any floating mana that you have.

106.4a If a player passes priority (see rule 115) while there is mana in his or her mana pool, that player announces what mana is there. If any mana remains in a player's mana pool after he or she spends mana to pay a cost, that player announces what mana is still there.

FoulQ

01-30-2010, 09:14 PM

Ok nevermind I'm an idiot. Well you can't declare the mana is there in a way that isn't cheating? There must be a way that isn't cheating.

Joe_C

01-31-2010, 07:13 AM

Ok nevermind I'm an idiot. Well you can't declare the mana is there in a way that isn't cheating? There must be a way that isn't cheating.

Im not a huge rules buff. But is this really a "cheat" move? You are baiting your opponent into attempting to daze SCG by over flooding your mana pool, if they are paying attention, they would realize its a waste of daze, if not, they just walked into a trap...

I can see how this is different than me wastelanding their tundra and them floating mana whethere they have a spell to play or not (damn you Wotc for removing mana burn!) but its not that far off

jrsthethird

02-01-2010, 08:52 AM

Im not a huge rules buff. But is this really a "cheat" move? You are baiting your opponent into attempting to daze SCG by over flooding your mana pool, if they are paying attention, they would realize its a waste of daze, if not, they just walked into a trap...

I can see how this is different than me wastelanding their tundra and them floating mana whethere they have a spell to play or not (damn you Wotc for removing mana burn!) but its not that far off

What you're saying is completely legal, morally correct, and (now with mana burn gone) 100% the right play (unless you choose the wrong color of mana!). The proposed scenario with the SGC, while I'm not a judge so I don't know if it's really legal or not, is kinda shady and you would probably look like a douchebag if you did it. It's deceptive. It's more like when you're playing against someone and they forget a mandatory trigger (like a mandatory life gain or something, can't think of an example), and you knowingly don't mention it.

Amaroid

02-01-2010, 12:14 PM

Im not a huge rules buff. But is this really a "cheat" move?

The rule Forbiddian quoted says you have to explicitly announce any remaining mana in your mana pool. How is intentionally breaking a rule to gain an advantage not cheating?

I didn't know of that rule until now, either, btw, so thanks for bringing that up.

jrsthethird

02-01-2010, 06:47 PM

Forbiddian

02-02-2010, 01:52 AM

So my assumption is that you can try the move on someone who is dumb/not aware of the rule, but if a judge is called then the guy who plays Daze has the option to take it back and the goblin player untaps his land? Unless you confess to being deceptive or do it several times to the same judge or at the same venue, I assume the judge has to let you off with a warning.

So it could be a devious trick, but chances are it would not be very useful in the long run.

Now that you know the rules, it's cheating-fraud. If the judge rules that you did it on purpose (which he should, now that you've read the rules), it's a DQNR.

I don't know how many of those you want to eat in your life. Even if the judge doesn't DQ you on the spot (sounds kinda harsh, actually, but since you knew the rule, it seems the only way out of it would be to lie to the official which is obviously another penalty, I assume standard practice is to ask the player, "Did you knowingly violate the rules?"), you still get a gameplay violation that will either upgrade to game loss on the next time or two times later (I can't remember, and I'm not a judge, so maybe ask cdr, but this is definitely a game rules violation), and you will probably back the game state up and your opponent keeps his (essentially useless anyway) daze in hand.

The rule makes perfect sense. It prevents players from using deception (like stacking one land on top of another land, then making five taps and stacking them together and then casting SGC). This just SEEMS like a dick move in general, but the rules actually specifically prevent players from getting an advantage out of this.

Imagine on a cluttered board, it's almost impossible to avoid stacking lands or other creatures together. The rules are formatted to put as much responsibility as possible on the player physically manipulating the lands to be clear and unambiguous and retracts responsibility from the person sitting all the way across the table who has no possible way of seeing if there are two lands stacked together or just one land.

If you cast say, three spells each for 3cc (but you actually had 10 lands out), it's going to be almost impossible for your opponent to see that you indeed tapped four lands to cast the second spell, ninja-floating one mana. It would slow the game down so much if you had to not only verify that your opponent tapped a sufficient amount, but also ensure that he didn't secretly tap additional lands.

Also, in Legacy it also prevents players from using a mana ambiguously, since we have so many dual lands. Like say you're Enchantress. You tap a Savannah Enchanted with a Utopia Sprawl naming Green to cast a Giant Growth. You have to declare immediately which color you're floating, as opposed to drawing a card and then deciding what color the mana in your pool is.

FoulQ

02-02-2010, 02:31 AM

I agree that breaking rules is a bad idea. I have a slight beef with the rule in that I'm not altering anything in the game and each individual thing I'm doing is perfectly legal. But I understand where it is coming from.

junkdiver

02-04-2010, 07:20 PM

jrsthethird

02-04-2010, 11:51 PM

Hey Everybody! I am new to Goblins in Legacy, and am hoping to get answers to some of my questions if and when you have the time :)

1. The white splash seems unpopular. I think it's because TSH is better than swords because swords helps mainly match ups that are already good? Also Krosan is better than Disenchant?

Everything you would splash white for is better with either black or green. The only advantage is against NO, Wing Shards is better than Warren Weirding but the white is intensive and the application is too narrow to really be worth it. K-Grip & TSH are better than Disenchant.

2. Would swords help in the zoo matchup? It would definitely help in the fish matchup? (Not that much help is needed there). ANy other important matchups it would help?

Obviously it would help but I think that's why we have Incinerators. Not too sure about Zoo but we don't need to spend spots on Fish. Plus, REB does Swords' job in that matchup without being off-color.

3. Would Ethersworn Canonist be a good choice in the side board (white splash assumed) against combo?

Yes, but Thorn of Amethyst screws them up too and doesn't require a splash.

4. What splash is best in a meta with a bunch of combo? Or is mono red best? (I understand Goblins is maybe a bad choice in a combo filled meta)

Depends on the combo. ANT/storm, I would suggest 4 Thorn. Aluren, Enchantress, other enchantment-based decks, green for K-Grip. I am forcing a black splash so I'm running Earwig Squad, but in a combo-heavy meta I would add Thorns.

5. Would Chalice of the Void maindeck really be that crazy? You can drop it at 0 and affect a lot of decks and not negatively affect yourself. Also It seems like to me turn 1 lackey or vial followed by a turn 2 chalice at 1 could be really good? It would wreck zoo's day I would think. By the time they hit a pride mage and activate you would be very much ahead (in theory)?

I think you're thinking too much now. Seems bad but only testing will really tell. I'm not gonna do it though.

6.At risk of revealing my newbness... I have never seen anyone mention Goblin Grenade...? 5 Damage just seems awesome, but maybe this is "Danger of Cool Things" hehe...

This is a card for Goblin Sligh, which I get the impression is not as good. This card would be sick if it were reprinted as a Tribal Sorcery -- Goblin, though.

7. I see tons of people use thorn of amethyst instead of chalice in the side... Why?

Have you looked at the spells we run? Only non-creatures are Vial and Weirding in the black splash.

8. Does someone have a really standard list for a black splash? I have looked on deckcheck and the lists on there vary all over the place for the RG version. Some go so far as to use aunties hovel, other only use 2 badlands etc. Would Cabal therapy actually be a viable card in a black splash? I don't see any of those decks use it.

I'm not sure about the Therapy. I'm actually trying a set of Bloodstained Mires along with a singleton Swamp to avoid getting hated by Wasteland. I have Badlands too but I only get them if I really need them. Not sure if this is the best idea. I run 4 other red fetches to snag the Badlands but maybe running Hovels would be better; not sure if the deck thinning is worth the burn. I would actually like some advice on that.

dearleader

02-05-2010, 05:52 AM

I would add that while Swords does help in the Zoo MU, it doesn't solve the greater problem of our creatures being outclassed by all of their 1 drops. Still, it buys you a turn or so against Zoo at the cost of 1 mana, which is quite perfect for this MU. But if that's what you're looking for, I'd rather stay on color and run Lightning Bolt - it doesn't kill Goyf or Knight, but it can slow down the game long enough to get your CA engine going.
Also, I've found Incinerators to be terrible against Zoo. The amount of investment it takes to make Incinerator workable against Zoo never pays off, unless you're already winning.

If you've played goblins before (eg: casually with friends) and are new to legacy, you might have the impression that goblins is a fast beatdown deck that wins on turn 3/4 with a blitz of Piledrivers and Seige Gangs. Our creatures, for the most part, are the smallest and slowest (in terms of CC) in the format. The deck wins early when it can, but most of the time you'll have to fight a war of attrition. I look at it this way: in most MUs, you're still the aggressor because you can threaten to beat them at any moment - it's just the turn(s) when you attack for the win are usually later in the game when you have more threats than they have answers. It's because of this that the deck wants to run as little non-goblin creatures as possible. Against most of the field, you can simply overwhelm them with CA through Ringleaders. This is also why you don't want to run Goblin Grenades.

Chalice is no good against Zoo. Even assuming you're on the play, spending turn 2 casting Chalice can make you lose the game if they have either Pridemage or Goyf. This is one MU where Lackey just functions to draw out a bolt or force Zoo to hold back 1 or 2 creatures.

I'm not too big on Cabal Therapy. It's randomly useful, but I don't think it improves many important MUs. It's a nice surprise against combo, but discard is not enough to swing the MU in your favor, especially when it's setting you back on tempo.

jrsthethird

02-05-2010, 08:49 AM

Also, I think Duress makes more sense to run against combo than Therapy.

ddt15

02-05-2010, 08:57 AM

Media314r8

02-05-2010, 11:31 AM

Tomorrow I'm going to a GPT Madrid, it will be my first magic tournament in ages. I settled on Goblins as there is probably too much GY hate to run Dredge, here is my list:

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Warren Instigator

4 Wasteland
16 Mountain

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Magus of the Moon

I would begin by fixing the bolded items. Run no fewer than 22 lands, even in mono-red. 23-24 is the consensus in the B or Bg splash. Mono-red relies on 'cheating' on mana via lackies, vials, and (sometimes) gators to dump guys onto the field. There is no way you will ever beat zoo with this list, as you will never draw the lands to start you CA engine, and you are not running mogg war marshals. I doubt that using Skirk prospector as a red blood pet is correct, especially eschewing vials and lands to do so. I would run a max of 2 SGCs, as mogg war marshal performs a similar role much earlier in the game, often buying you two-three turns against zoo and like aggro decks. I would lower the singscourger count, as you are not even maxing the number of gators to force through- run a tutorable one-of if you must. I would start with:

4 Wasteland
18 Mountain

4 Aether vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator

3-? Goblin Piledriver
3-? Goblin Warchief
2-? Goblin Chieftan

and tweak to your liking. Playtest, playtest, playtest. You do not want to be cold to both zoo and combo. It then seems like a pretty nitch meta you would want to play this in. Try and get your zoo MW% to at least 40 combined pre and post board. (war marshals will really help with this, and you may want to up the incinerators count to 4) IMO cut the magus in the SB, as red-splash is by far prominent in tempo thresh, and bant-style decks almost always run 4 hierarchs and some number of basics. Aggro decks will all be able to bolt him should he become a problems. I would recommend relics over crypts so you have some relevant boards against tempo-thresh. 3 Boartusk Liege should be in the SB as the only way in mono-red to beat double plague. Pillar is likely pising upwind, as even with it you will likely have to mull into it and two lands to even stand a chance against combo, and it's still not even close to an auto-win if you land it. Play something more useful in your rough, but winnable MUs.... like soemthing to deal with jitte. Tinkerer and/or some number of the new 3R 2/2 ally goblin is probably the way to go.

Malchar

02-05-2010, 11:36 AM

Wasteland might be your best friend in this matchup. The sideboard doesn't help very much in my opinon, but here's what I tend to use. Pyrostatic Pillar is usually too little too late against the storm decks of today. Usually, I like to use Thorn of Amethyst or Chalice of the Void. Red Elemental Blast is also quite useful to disrupt cantrips and Mystical Tutor. Another possibility is Pyroclasm in order to wipe out Goblin and Zombie tokens, but at this point, it's probably too antisynergetic.

junkdiver

02-05-2010, 12:32 PM

Jrsthehtird, malchar and dearleader thanks very much for the well thought out explanations.

Dearleader I actually did think exactly as you said that it would be like super fast aggro beats that would win games, not realizing that the decks power is in CA. I will have to rethink how I look at the deck and that definitely makes sense of why there are very few non goblin cards that get played.

I didn't clarify very well my problem with thorn vs chalice. To me chalice makes sense because you can drop it at 0 and it doesn't really mess up your tempo. Granted that dropping a chalice at 0 is not as good as dropping a thorn (against storm/belcher specifically), but I feel like a lot of times you will not get to cast thorn vs combo especially if they are on the play (because they will have already gone off by the time you hit 2 mana).

Earwig squad seems cool, but I feel like storm goes off so consistently turn 1 or two that to have a chance the solution needs to cost 1 or less (which I know is reaching pretty hard). I could totally be wrong on this one, my experience in legacy is admittedly limited.

If you guys don't mind I have a few more questions regarding the black splash, and assuming no green splash:

1. What do you all think the best lands to run?

2. What do you think the correct number of warren weirdings are?

3. Do you think port is required in the black splash, and can it create mana issues for the goblins player in a splash?

Thanks guys, I have learned a ton reading the pages of this post!

jrsthethird

02-05-2010, 01:21 PM

You can get Earwig on turn 2 if you drop Lackey turn 1, swing and drop a Warchief.

Media314r8

02-05-2010, 02:50 PM

ANT and doomsday have a critical turn of two or three, rarely ever turn one, not to say it doesn't happen. Chalice at 0 to slow, lackey followed by squad is about the only way to beat combo aside from the fizzling, AN'ing poorly, or you having a wacky turn three kill games one and three.

I'm sure you meant lackey, drop in a frogtosser bannerett, prowl squad. Frogtosser is so much better on your curve, and half of the reason for playing the black splash.

I believe 3 edicts, 2 incinerators, or 4 edicts, 1 incinerator is the consensus.

My plan against combo is to hope for the T1 lackey, T2 put in frogtosser, prowl squad, or for them to just lose to their own deck. I'd rather have better game against winnable matchups than to attempt to achieve a 20% win rate vs storm from my current 10%. Both situations are grim, but losing most of the time with the four anti-combo cards just means I have dead slots against the rest of the field that I stand a chance against.

sligh16

02-05-2010, 11:25 PM

Or you can just play 4 chalice and 4 mindbreak trap in your sideboard.
If you play RG Goblins sideboard can be: 4 Chalice, 4 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Krosan Grip, 3 Pyrokinesis and 1 Tranquil Domain.

Gibsonmac

02-06-2010, 12:14 PM

@Foul: Have you still been rockin MonoR/RG splash mostly? Any new findings in testing, 'optimal' lists in your opinion?

jrsthethird

02-06-2010, 01:25 PM

I'm sure you meant lackey, drop in a frogtosser bannerett, prowl squad. Frogtosser is so much better on your curve, and half of the reason for playing the black splash.

Oh I definitely run those, but I just forgot about it when I posted.

JonBarber

02-07-2010, 02:37 AM

I'm planning to take this to a large tourny ~70-80. With such a large event, I'm expecting a highly developed meta of mainly countertop, dredge, reanimator, and combo (ANT). Mindbreak trap makes the matchup against combo A LOT better. I feel like thoughtseize is more versatile sb option than thorn. I was a little iffy about going down to 1 incinerator, but feel the list is solid enough to do so. Thoughts/opinions?

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftan
3 Warren Weirding
3 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Gempalm Incinerator

8 Mountain
4 Badland
4 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Rishadan Port
1 Auntie's Hovel

Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Thoughtseize
3 Perish
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Hunter245

02-07-2010, 03:06 AM

Just a couple of questions you need to ask yourself when splashing black.

With the Black Splash has Frogtosser been considered? If so then continue on ahead on. Some players like myself feel he warrants a inclusion, others may not.

Ask yourself if Cabal therapy is better then thoughtseize. Do you know what to name? If not then go ahead and run thoughtseize.

Finnally why open yourself up to stifle at all? I would cut the 2 fetches for more auntie's hovels.

With the Black splash you also have other options for graveyard hate. Has those been considered as well?

Good luck in your tournament, I hope this helped.

jrsthethird

02-07-2010, 04:36 AM

Going to a similar tourney next weekend. Here's what I'm going to be testing for the next week:

Land: 21
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
7 Mountain
4 Auntie's Hovel

Non-Dudes: 6
4 Aether Vial
2 Warren Weirding

Dudes: 33
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Frogtosser Banneret
2 Earwig Squad
1 Mad Auntie
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

VERY tentative sideboard: 15
2 Warren Weirding
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Earwig Squad
4 Duress
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Need some advice here. Haven't done much testing but this is the only thing I can really build.

Need input on Mogg Fanatic, Mogg War Marshal. I don't know if they're good enough to run (people have mentioned them but I haven't seen too much discussion).

Also, sideboard help. The Thorn spot could be either that or Mindbreak Trap, I only own 1 of each so my choice might be dependent on which one I can get a set of by next weekend, but still looking for input there. Also, Duress should probably be Thoughtseize, but I don't own them. I don't own any Perish either. What about Ensnaring Bridge against Progenitus, reanimator, or any other huge beef strategies? I own them so it might work for me. Also, Pithing Needle? That should probably go in the Duress/Seize spot but is it worth it?

And general sideboarding strategies would help. I always find that to be the hardest part of playing serious Magic.

jrsthethird

02-07-2010, 04:38 AM

Just a couple of questions you need to ask yourself when splashing black.

With the Black Splash has Frogtosser been considered? If so then continue on ahead on. Some players like myself feel he warrants a inclusion, others may not.

Ask yourself if Cabal therapy is better then thoughtseize. Do you know what to name? If not then go ahead and run thoughtseize.

Finnally why open yourself up to stifle at all? I would cut the 2 fetches for more auntie's hovels.

With the Black splash you also have other options for graveyard hate. Has those been considered as well?

Good luck in your tournament, I hope this helped.

I run Frogtosser, he fits the curve a lot better and one copy out lets you do awesome things.

I suppose Auntie's Hovel would be great, I would just need to grab a playset in a week. I could probably manage that.

Cabal Therapy sounds like a really good idea, I will try to get them and test.

What other options are there? Bojuka Bog and Ravenous Trap are all I can think of, and I don't think they're better than Relic.

Joe_C

02-07-2010, 07:32 AM

Im going to try mono red again at the next tournament I am going to in March. Ive tried the black splash, but I get very wary about running fetches and running port just isnt really a good choice as far as I can tell in the splash... Here is my list, some changes since my last:

3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
15 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
3 Gemplam Incinerator
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshall

SB:
3 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 chieftain is pretty nutty. Instigator just wasnt doing it for me in my meta, if things go more control oriented I may put them back in sometime, but war marshall/chieftain is pretty sexy for me at the moment.

JonBarber

02-07-2010, 10:27 AM

Just a couple of questions you need to ask yourself when splashing black.

With the Black Splash has Frogtosser been considered? If so then continue on ahead on. Some players like myself feel he warrants a inclusion, others may not.

Frogtosser has been considered. The question was what to remove for it. Personally, I didn't feel like it was that much help, but maybe I'll do a little play testing with it in the next week.

Ask yourself if Cabal therapy is better then thoughtseize. Do you know what to name? If not then go ahead and run thoughtseize.

Personally, I say no. In most matchups, the 2 damage is worth taking. Most of the time whats going to be killing me is a progenitus. Thoughtseize is our only real answer to things like humility and other random things. I like it enough to keep.

Finnally why open yourself up to stifle at all? I would cut the 2 fetches for more auntie's hovels.

I threw them in for deck thinning and the option to grab basics, but you might be right.

With the Black splash you also have other options for graveyard hate. Has those been considered as well?

Crypt is fast, which is nice. Relic also works really well against the goyf matchup. I considered rav trap, but it really only hits dredge, and any half decent player will cabal therapy you first. Only other card I gave serious thought to was Faerie Macabre, but I can't do very many broken things with him, so I didn't feel he deserved a spot.

Good luck in your tournament, I hope this helped.

Thanks!

alphastorm

02-07-2010, 10:43 AM

Since you guys are splashing black, would dark confidant be a good replacement for frog tosser?

jrsthethird

02-07-2010, 11:26 AM

For my build, definitely not, since I don't run any Warchiefs.

In the other one, I still don't think he's worth a spot because he's not a goblin. Plus, our cure is a little too high to want to play Bob. I run 4 5cc guys and 5 4cc guys, so he would hurt a lot. I was thinking to myself about Night's Whisper last night, but the more non-goblins you run the worse Ringleader gets.

FoulQ

02-07-2010, 01:39 PM

@Foul: Have you still been rockin MonoR/RG splash mostly? Any new findings in testing, 'optimal' lists in your opinion?

I don't think there has been a big enough metagame shift at this point to change from MonoR and occasionally Rg. In the end, the splash one plays is pretty dependent on that person's metagame. I still firmly believe that around 3 warren instigators is optimal in every non-black list, pretty much no matter what. I haven't been able to test as much as I used to, unfortunately, because of my new classes for this semester (college comes first).

@JonBarber, usually people don't play warren weirding and stingscourger. I think you should go 4/2 weirding/gempalm, or 4/3 weirding/gempalm, or 4/2/1 weirding/gempalm/stingscourger, IF you want to run so much removal. People usually don't do this because weirding and stingscourger are good against similar decks. 7 removal is quite a bit. 5 is standard and 6 is heavy (as Media pointed out), at least for Rb.

Warren weirding is our best answer to progenitus, but that matchup is usually pretty good anyway.

@jrsthethird, mogg fanatic is pretty bad. It has two general purposes, dark confidant and bridges. If you are expecting a lot of both, I would consider running it. MWM is great in the zoo matchup and other random aggro decks. It is also good with lots of chieftains. But I'd almost always rather run instigator. It's like if they printed a 7/7 for GW. Would Zoo run that over Qasali Pridemage, within a vaccuum of those four slots? Yes they would. Instigator is extremely powerful, and MWM is not. (obviously zoo could run both but that's not the point)

MonoR is the best in the merfolk and zoo matchups. Rb is the best against decks like countertop and combo. Rg deals with a lot of randoms. And Rw does a little of everything. Be careful not to splash just because you own the duals for it.

Bluemagex2517

02-07-2010, 03:10 PM

This is version of the deck. I felt the biggest problem facing gobos was mana developement. Thus I added Chrome mox and replaced wasteland with Mutavualt. Sure it makes you exta vunrable to deed, but deed is played less than ever before. Thislist doesn't make zoo and good Match-up, but it does add some percentage points in your favor.

Lands
8 [B] Mountain
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [MOR] Mutavault

Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal

Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

jrsthethird

02-07-2010, 07:02 PM

I will probably play with the removal spots a little. I love how stingscourger works with Vial. Warren Weirding is great, I would love to find room for a 3rd or 4th, but I don't want to cut any more Incinerators.

After talking to a couple friends and figuring out what to borrow, my board is going to be
4 Thoughtseize
3 Perish
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Mindbreak Trap

If I feel like the metagame shifts more in favor of any of my split board spots, I will adjust accordingly.

hungryLIKEALION

02-07-2010, 07:07 PM

Just curious, FoulQ, why do you feel mono red is best vs. zoo? As a zoo player I find Rb a lot more annoying in my experience, just because warren weirding is so good. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

alphastorm

02-07-2010, 07:49 PM

Who do you target when you use warren weirding?

JonBarber

02-07-2010, 07:58 PM

Who do you target when you use warren weirding?

Progenitus. I have done it to myself before to double my number of chump blockers.

Media314r8

02-07-2010, 09:58 PM

Thus I added Chrome mox and replaced wasteland with Mutavualt.

Lands
8 [B] Mountain
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [MOR] Mutavault

Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal

Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Let me address the Chrome mox issue first - please play 4 or none. You never, ever want to draw chrome mox, you want the initial tempo boost, so it only makes sense to maximize the chances it will be in your opener - about 40% if you run 4. I've tested gemstone caverns (the luck counter legendary land) briefly and was pleased with it as a one or two of, but do not run it in Rb because of the increased color requirements. (it taps for colorless without the luck counter) If you want to run a turn one accelerator, try two caverns out, as you will rarely ever see two together, and they actually tap for colorless without eating a card in hand on turn three-four when you are trying to draw that last land to play your ringleader.

For the love of god- everyone reading this thread please do not play fetchlands in mono-colored decks without brainstorm-like effects. You are only opening yourself up to stifle, lowering your life total against burn and other aggressive decks, all to create virtual card-quality that will statistically matter in ~2% of games. Losing 5% of your life to infrequently ringleader or topdeck better is unwise superstition. Perhaps some kind mod who remembers the saint who wrote a diatribe about this subject can link us to that excellent explanation. In the meanwhile, just don't do it - believe me, believe FoulQ, believe other plays who have been at this a while.

Other than that, I would suggest a solution to jitte other than jitte in your sideboard. Bringing out goblins for non-goblin spells should only happen out of necessity or if the cards brought in are backbreaking against the opposing deck. Against zoo and tempo thresh, I do not see you ever successfully connecting with an equipped creature. (as they all have asses which die to literally every played red removal spell) Against merfolk and other aggro-control decks packing MB jittes, pyrokinesis will likely destroy their creature they are attempting to equip and hopefully the next in line, without costing you any mana. (and thus tempo) Pyrokinesis also aids your lackies and gators in connecting. If you are worried about zoo, I would generally sugest you have a few Taigas to nab with the fetches you are so eager to play and packing TSH. Else a split of tinkerer (against early jittes) and Tuktuk (against active jittes) will get the job done better, as they are tutorable and maintain your goblin synergy and ratios.

Please don't cut matrons for sub-optimal goblins. Ever.

alphastorm

02-07-2010, 10:13 PM

can i matron a warren weirding? And can ringleader also grab a warren weirding?

jrsthethird

02-07-2010, 10:32 PM

can i matron a warren weirding? And can ringleader also grab a warren weirding?

yes and yes. Warchief effects also make it cost just a single B.

snackfu

02-07-2010, 10:34 PM

Good God, yes.

Goblin Matron
Card Text:When Goblin Matron enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a Goblin card, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.

Goblin Ringleader
Card Text:Haste
When Goblin Ringleader enters the battlefield, reveal the top four cards of your library. Put all Goblin cards revealed this way into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.

Warren Wierding
Types:Tribal Sorcery — Goblin

Warren Wierding is a Goblin card, otherwise Chainer's Edict or Diabolic Edict would be better, or Terminate.

alphastorm

02-07-2010, 10:50 PM

Thanks! I've been out of magic during that whole tribal sorcery block. Splashing black seems pretty strong. Will start testing it.

FoulQ

02-07-2010, 11:30 PM

So the black splash is the new thing. I swear, this thread is sometimes like fashion, shit goes out of style and comes back and there hasn't been a metagame shift to warrant everyone jumping on the Rb boat if they weren't already.

The problem with warren weirding is that it has to be a proactive answer most of the time. It cannot be used reactively very easily. It often pigeonholes goblins into assuming the aggro matchup very quickly. Let me explain.

Place yourself in the shoes of the other player, staring you down at the table. There are a few primary concerns for you now, but the one always in the front of everyone's mind is: I can't let them suddenly overwhelm me. This is great for goblins. One of the strengths of the deck is playing against players who are unfamiliar with goblin's capability of playing the control role. This makes it so that players will often lead a blocker behind (especially if you have a warchief or chieftain in play), whether this is reasonable or not, or they leave open pretty obvious removal mana.

The initiative to force a change in roles in which you have no control is when goblins loses matches. Once the canadian player has two tarmogoyfs in play and starts attacking with one, that is when shit got bad. BUT, that's not to say tarmogoyf is the problem, there are countless factors involved and tarmogoyf is really just a figurehead for the deck's problems against goyf-based decks.

Warren weirding is like Amare Stoudemire. It is great and is synergistic with the rest of the deck, but it gets lazy on defense. It adds no goblins to the table. This is very important. Tapping out to play a spell is BAD in goblins. We are not just playing a high creature count for ringleader: the deck is naturally built so that it is important to land a creature turn after turn after turn. That's how we are able to apply not only pressure but consistent pressure. A high creature count actually makes our deck more consistent than the traditional way of looking at it with tops/brainstorm/etc.

I think weirding is a good card in the right metagame. If you see yourself constantly playing the aggro role, it is good, because it does a good job of perpetuating the role assignment of goblins as aggro and the opponent as control if it is already happening in the game. However, it can't force a change in roles at all. Changes in roles are what decide games for goblins.

People talk about how important knowing when to play control/aggro is for decks like tempo thresh, but I think it is probably the most important part of playing goblins. First of all, goblins is not for johnny players, and that is the first lesson everybody learns when they pick up the deck. The deck is not about "t1 lackey t2 warchief/piledriver t3 piledriver #2 lol!!" If you are confident in your abilities of role assignment, this deck becomes much better. For instance, if you both assume the control role, and you know what you are getting into, you will probably win that game. For a lot of decks in legacy with the many bomb cards, if you are both playing the control role, you can't be certain of what is happening.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that warren weirding takes away from that power to assign roles. It only reinforces the aggro role. It does that very well, however, which makes it great if you are expecting decks like tempo thresh, countertop, midrange stuff, etc (however tempo thresh runs stifle+waste...)

Stingscourger, on the other hand, does much more in terms of role assignment. He can reinforce the aggro role as a tempo tool. He can put you squarely in the control role like Mogg War Marshal. He is a much more flexible card than warren weirding. And ocassionally you just need a body, something weirding can't provide.

Basically, I'm trying to answer hungrylikealion's question. Warren weirding isn't that great against zoo. If they have a single threat out, things are probably going well or going wrongly anyways. Zoo becomes dangerous when they have multiple threats out. Warren weirding can get rid of one, but it gives us nothing else, and we can't play control with the card, because playing the control role in the matchup relies on building up a goblin base. Stingscourger saves you a lot of life and time against zoo, something no other goblin can claim. I am of the firm belief that stingscourger is better than warren weirding in the zoo matchup. And I do believe that zoo needs to play the aggro role and goblins needs to play the control role in the matchup almost all the time. I secretly know you posted that you play the control role against goblins in the zoo thread, and I disagreed with this but wasn't going to bring anything up about it in the zoo thread. Instead I've done it here. Sylvan library, one-for-one removal, and much more efficient creatures can't compete with an actual card advantage engine. The matchup is definitely within zoo's favor though.

The reason I saw MonoR is better than Rb is because I firmly believe that stingscourger is stronger than warren weirding in the zoo matchup, and they are usually not played together. I also think a high gempalm incinerator count can be important because: A) an active lavamancer is one of the most common ways to lose the game, and B) It is a much better transition tool than warren weirding when you are ready to switch from the card advantage engine to beating zoo's face before they draw too much removal/efficiency to overwhelm you after you ringleadered a bunch. I haven't tested perish enough out of the sideboard to really say how effective it is, but when I did test it, I was pretty disappointed.

Finally, I want to say something about goblin lackey. This is really off-topic but I already wrote it. I'm studying the Russian Revolution of 1917 for class right now and I want to draw a parallel to it because I'm bored. Goblin Lackey is not powerful because of his ability, he is powerful because of what his ability represents. Likewise, the Revolution of 1905 and WWI did not create the Revolution of 1917, but they undoubtedly implanted a lot of the ideas that made that revolution possible. I'm never disappointed when I go t1 lackey and my opponent swords' it. You might think, "damn, if he had connected...I could've had SGC in play and damn..." I don't know why I'm pointing this out but I see people have the very wrong philosophy on goblin lackey AND more importantly with their evaluation of warren instigator.

@Bluemage, I really recommend 4 pyrokinesis. If you feel the need to run 8 combo hate, you should question whether you really want to run this deck. In addition you have 3 ravenous trap which I'm not as much of a fan of in this deck, it's the sexy new thing to run them, but deck's with library manipulation can take much better advantage of the card and honestly not every metagame warrants that narrow of graveyard hate (I would probably go 3/1/1 relic/crypt/trap or something if you want to run 5 pieces). But if you have a lot of ichorid then yeah, why not. I'm always interested in what happens with people and mutavault, so tell me what happens. If I were to run chrome mox (I never would), I would run 4 warren instigator and try to maximize lackey connections. Gemstone caverns as a 2-of or so is probably a better choice.

Finally, I just want to end saying that I have no problems with Rb. It is great. But so is MonoR (and in my opinion Rg and sometimes Rw even). Instead of throwing lists together and saying "yeah warren weirding looks good tutorable goblin removal?! 4 me please!!" we really need to analyze what our list is in comparison to a different list we could be running in that particular metagame. I believe that MonoR is the best against merfolk and zoo, the (arguably) two most popular decks in legacy. That's why I roll with it most of the time right now.

Splashing in goblins is like unprotected sex. You might of had a great time and been happy for the increased sensitivity, and hell, she might not have even gotten pregnant/std, it might have been the greatest sex/tournament of your life, but you can't really measure the effects of what the splash does to you just like you can't measure the probability of her getting pregnant (or either of you getting an std). So please, when playing goblins, wear a condom, and don't just jump right into it, even if you're drunk.

Bluemagex2517

02-07-2010, 11:38 PM

Let me address the Chrome mox issue first - please play 4 or none. You never, ever want to draw chrome mox, you want the initial tempo boost, so it only makes sense to maximize the chances it will be in your opener - about 40% if you run 4. I've tested gemstone caverns (the luck counter legendary land) briefly and was pleased with it as a one or two of, but do not run it in Rb because of the increased color requirements. (it taps for colorless without the luck counter) If you want to run a turn one accelerator, try two caverns out, as you will rarely ever see two together, and they actually tap for colorless without eating a card in hand on turn three-four when you are trying to draw that last land to play your ringleader.

For the love of god- everyone reading this thread please do not play fetchlands in mono-colored decks without brainstorm-like effects. You are only opening yourself up to stifle, lowering your life total against burn and other aggressive decks, all to create virtual card-quality that will statistically matter in ~2% of games. Losing 5% of your life to infrequently ringleader or topdeck better is unwise superstition. Perhaps some kind mod who remembers the saint who wrote a diatribe about this subject can link us to that excellent explanation. In the meanwhile, just don't do it - believe me, believe FoulQ, believe other plays who have been at this a while.

Other than that, I would suggest a solution to jitte other than jitte in your sideboard. Bringing out goblins for non-goblin spells should only happen out of necessity or if the cards brought in are backbreaking against the opposing deck. Against zoo and tempo thresh, I do not see you ever successfully connecting with an equipped creature. (as they all have asses which die to literally every played red removal spell) Against merfolk and other aggro-control decks packing MB jittes, pyrokinesis will likely destroy their creature they are attempting to equip and hopefully the next in line, without costing you any mana. (and thus tempo) Pyrokinesis also aids your lackies and gators in connecting. If you are worried about zoo, I would generally sugest you have a few Taigas to nab with the fetches you are so eager to play and packing TSH. Else a split of tinkerer (against early jittes) and Tuktuk (against active jittes) will get the job done better, as they are tutorable and maintain your goblin synergy and ratios.

Please don't cut matrons for sub-optimal goblins. Ever.

You increase your chance of have chrome mox in your opener, but you also increase your chance of drawing it. So I do not understand your logic. Especially since you never want to open with multiple chrome moxes.

I don't aggree with you on the fetches. As you draw 10 cards in three turns and fetch away 3 cards, now your averages go up 2% which is well worth it in the long run as life is the most expendable resource in magic.

Most Zoo decks main 1 Jitte, and by the time it actually gets active the game is usually decided via tempo.

The fourth matron slows the deck down, but this is your strongest point, so cut something for matron.

Of those four arguments the chrome mox is the most important. Four will hurt more than help. And concidering the current meta I believe running chrome mox is correct.

FoulQ

02-08-2010, 12:12 AM

You increase your chance of have chrome mox in your opener, but you also increase your chance of drawing it. So I do not understand your logic. Especially since you never want to open with multiple chrome moxes.

I don't aggree with you on the fetches. As you draw 10 cards in three turns and fetch away 3 cards, now your averages go up 2% which is well worth it in the long run as life is the most expendable resource in magic.

Most Zoo decks main 1 Jitte, and by the time it actually gets active the game is usually decided via tempo.

The fourth matron slows the deck down, but this is your strongest point, so cut something for matron.

Of those four arguments the chrome mox is the most important. Four will hurt more than help. And concidering the current meta I believe running chrome mox is correct.

You could solve the whole chrome mox problem by not running chrome mox. What metagame takes such a drastic change in the model of the normal deck to make it suboptimal, and if such a drastic change is actually necessary, then have you considered running a different deck instead? We can always use the excuse "well my metagame warrants it" but does your metagame really warrant goblins?

*sigh* The fact that your sentence about fetches makes me want a cigarette from talking about it so much is not a good sign. I know we won't convince you and the others who do it. A lot of what fetches do is not in the numbers.

Two decks that are very common run stifle, tempo thresh and merfolk. Various decks out there also run it. You'll probably come across it once a tournament in an average-sized tourney.

Two decks that are very common run a lot of burn, zoo and burn. Various decks out there also run a more aggressive package than goblins. You'll probably also come across this once a tournament in an average-sized tourney.

The problem is, you don't know when that time will come.

Keeping a 1-land fetchland hand against an unknown opponent is almost always impossible. Usually 1-land hands aren't keepable anyways, but there are times when its ok, especially on the draw. However, more interesting, what about 2-land hands with one fetchland? Or 3-land hands with 1/2 fetches? This is when things get interesting.

Stifle on one of our fetches is more devastating than for most decks. This comes from the inherent problem in goblins: we are an aggressive deck, but many of our spells are expensive (expensive as in 3cc or more). The best way to insure losses with goblins is via mana screw. Goblins has a very, very difficult time from recovering from mana screw compared to other legacy decks. One stifle and you can very well be on your way to fuckedville.

So if we are playing zoo and have a hand of...threats, removal, taiga, heath, well, if our heath is stifled we will be able to recover much easier. Turn 1 nacatl will hold up the fort for a while during the recovery process. Regardless of our opponent's stifle, we will not be in an unrecoverable position. So we can keep a hand like that, with those two lands.

But goblins, things are different. Even if we have a turn 1 vial/lackey. Lackey is a 1/1, stopped by a billion things. Vial is fairly slow, and if we aren't careful, we'll be playing the aggro deck but not attacking till turn 4, a recipe for disaster. For instance, playing an RTS, that's like camping your army right outside the enemy's town in plain sight, with all your units plainly visible. You are probably going to lose that map because you appeared to be the agreesor but then sat there and your opponent had the perfect counterplan.

So we can't necessarily keep a hand of mountain, fetch, lackey, 3cc+ stuff g1 against an unknown opponent. That is a HUGE amount of hands. And depending on our hand, who knows what might happen. What about two fetches instead of mountain + fetch? Their isn't really math involved with this at this point because there are too many possibilities.

Playing fetches makes mulliganing a lot more common G1. And if your opponent IS playing stifle/burn, that makes things even more precarious. Please, next time you argue for fetches, do not spout some random Flores saying with absolutely no context and expect it to hold weight in the court of The Source.

If, as a deckbuilder, a person decides to cut a matron, that makes me seriously wonder if they know how to play the deck at all. I didn't even notice it was a 3of in your list, because I guess I just assumed everyone plays 4.

I'm still interested in your list, however, and how it performs for you. One of the problems I've noticed with The Source is the inbredness. We all make arguments for certain decklists and we are eventually running close to the same thing, and we become very closed to outside ideas.

arebennian

02-08-2010, 01:49 AM

And I do believe that zoo needs to play the aggro role and goblins needs to play the control role in the matchup almost all the time. I secretly know you posted that you play the control role against goblins in the zoo thread, and I disagreed with this but wasn't going to bring anything up about it in the zoo thread. Instead I've done it here. Sylvan library, one-for-one removal, and much more efficient creatures can't compete with an actual card advantage engine. The matchup is definitely within zoo's favor though.

I saw this too.
I was going to make a reference about it too but decided not to.
I would be interested to hear Hungry's explaination in taking the control roll.
Is it the fact you feel you can burn the important creatures, overwhelm Goblins weaker ones and then draw into burn to throw at the Goblin Player's head?

JonBarber

02-08-2010, 02:25 AM

Okay, I changed things around a little after play testing tonight. I'm now running 4 Warren Weirding (SO good against probant) and 2 Gempalm incinerators, 0 stingscourgers. I tested perish on the sb for the goyf matchup and was very happy.

I'd like to make a comment on the fetchland argument. I agree, MonoR goblins should not play fetches. However, I like the idea of playing two fetches when splashing a color. It fools the opponent into keeping their stifles main when its really a very bad play. The most damage I'll ever take from them is 2, and I don't really have to worry about ripping a hand of all fetches.

jrsthethird

02-08-2010, 08:57 AM

I'm never disappointed when I go t1 lackey and my opponent swords' it. You might think, "damn, if he had connected...I could've had SGC in play and damn..." I don't know why I'm pointing this out but I see people have the very wrong philosophy on goblin lackey AND more importantly with their evaluation of warren instigator.

I have this reaction as well. Lackey is just good, he's not the nuts of the deck. I will often lead with a Lackey turn 1 when playing against blue to try to bait out a Force so I can drop a Vial the next turn.

After reading your post I think I'm going to try 1 Weirding and 3 Incinerator. What about a single War Marshal and 2 Incinerator? I would like to test him but I don't know what to remove.

alphastorm

02-08-2010, 10:29 AM

why are players running Gemstone cavern? I've never tested it but on paper it looks horrible. It requires that you are not playing first. You lose card advantage. It has to be in your opening hand. Otherwise if you end up drawing it later, it becomes a crappy legendary, nonbasic land that taps for 1 colorless mana. So why are people even considering this? If you're really afraid of stifle then run some ravinica shock lands instead of the sac lands.

ddt15

02-08-2010, 11:15 AM

This is what i played:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Instigator

4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
18 Mountain

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Tinkerer

The deck feels like it has too high mana curve. I would often get hands with 3mana creatures and land only. I might put it some prospectors/marshals maybe a sharpshooter for a more solid plan B(urn).
I went 3-3, won against elves, zoo and r/b goblins and lost against enchantress twice and counterbalance landstill (in all three games i lost to a Moat :/). Pyrokinesis was great, pillar was useless. My changes to sb would be -3 Pillar +3 Anarchy. Anarchy kills Moat, Humility, Planeswalkers and random crap like Runed Halo, Solitary Confinement, Progenitus etc. I considered a green splash but I like the advantages of a mono colored deck.

Cyrus

02-08-2010, 11:47 AM

I was using Zoo and a friend was using Rgb Goblins. He won quite a lot, actually. Perishes in the SB really helped him, and I judge myself as a quite good zoo player. Idk.

JonBarber

02-08-2010, 12:29 PM

Tao

02-08-2010, 12:29 PM

Let me address the Chrome mox issue first - please play 4 or none. You never, ever want to draw chrome mox, you want the initial tempo boost, so it only makes sense to maximize the chances it will be in your opener - about 40% if you run 4.

I don't know much about the deck or if Chrome Mox is any good in a deck with Vial and Lackey, but the "4 or none" argument is pointless. Any number between 1 and 4 can be correct, it depends on the deck, the curve and on how much you are willing to live with drawing multiples.

Media314r8

02-08-2010, 01:26 PM

the "4 or none" argument is pointless. Any number between 1 and 4 can be correct, it depends on the deck, the curve and on how much you are willing to live with drawing multiples.

I never intend to flame, but this is really common sense - I'm finding it astonishing that people are unable to grasp this. Would you ever play between one and three serum powders in a combo/vintage dredge deck? What about two Leyline of the Void in a sideboard? How about running just two aether vials... you never want to see more than 1-2 anyhow... right?

Cards that sacrifice CA for early game tempo like chrome mox are run as 'four-or-none-ofs' because they are so horrendous to draw in the midgame, so the only justification to running it is that the tempo netted in the early turns makes up for it. Why would you want to have a lower chance of having it in your opener but still want to run three so that you will see one off the top every other game on average?

Similar effects like Serum Powder or LLotV only work well or at all in the opener, so yes - 'four or none' does apply, and while it is often correct to play, for example, two ponders in Bant survival, (as it's just fine if not better to rip midgame) I promise you vintage dredge is not running serum power as any less than a four-of in order to occasionally ramp their mana when they topdeck it.

Any number between 1 and 4 can be correct, it depends on the -card-

Chrome mox is a card you only want to see in your opener, and just as it is correct to run either four or zero aether vials, so to is it correct to play four or zero chrome moxen for tempo. I am not disputing your build or degrading your person, I simply attempt to defend my assertion and educate others who may fall prey to similar errors, such as running only 3 vials 'because they couldn't decide what else to cut.'

I am of the opinion that chrome mox does not belong in goblins, as lackey, vial, and gator are enough game-breaking cards to pin our hopes on (that do not require the loss of CA ie goblins in hand). We do not need to lose CA to ramp into a turn 1 gator just to have him swords'd and be left with only three cards in hand.

JonBarber

02-08-2010, 02:48 PM

How about running just two aether vials... you never want to see more than 1-2 anyhow... right?

Woah! Thats brilliant! I'm gonna do that. =)

Good point.

Bluemagex2517

02-08-2010, 03:21 PM

Sometimes you do want to see chrome mox after the opener, say when you get a big ringleader. Vial doesn't fit that comparison because it is so game breaking against some decks you are willing to take the risk of seeing multiple per game.

"I am of the opinion that chrome mox does not belong in goblins, as lackey, vial, and gator are enough game-breaking cards to pin our hopes on (that do not require the loss of CA ie goblins in hand). We do not need to lose CA to ramp into a turn 1 gator just to have him swords'd and be left with only three cards in hand."

If you find a problem with card advantage with goblins you are having the opposite results of all my testing. Generally I have more trouble casting all my cards fast enough than I do running out of them. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but if I'm right I assure you 3 chrome mox is right.

Tacosnape

02-08-2010, 05:54 PM

I never intend to flame, but this is really common sense - I'm finding it astonishing that people are unable to grasp this. Would you ever play between one and three serum powders in a combo/vintage dredge deck? What about two Leyline of the Void in a sideboard? How about running just two aether vials... you never want to see more than 1-2 anyhow... right?

Cards that sacrifice CA for early game tempo like chrome mox are run as 'four-or-none-ofs' because they are so horrendous to draw in the midgame, so the only justification to running it is that the tempo netted in the early turns makes up for it.

This is terrible logic.

Tao's absolutely right in that any number between 0-4 can be correct of anything. And your examples are awful because you aren't weighing the power boost you get for having something in your opening hand versus the penalty for getting it midgame or having multiples. And if you only run 2 Chrome Moxes instead of 4, you're also halving your chances of drawing it in the midgame.

What if they allowed ten of a card instead of four? Would Chrome Mox be Ten or nothing? Would Goblins run Ten Aether Vials? Ten Ringleaders?

Despite what you think, it can absolutely be correct to run less than 4 Serum Powders, less than 4 Leylines, less than 4 Vials, less than 4 Chrome Moxes, etc.

The question you should always ask yourself when determining the number of card to play in a deck is "If this was allowed to be unlimited, how many would I -want- to play?" If the answer is 0-3, play that many. If the answer is 4, 6, 10, 33, or whatever, play 4.

junkdiver

02-08-2010, 06:29 PM

So after much debate I think I am going to go with the white splash despite the thought that it is inferior in some way to the green splash.

My logic is partly based on results of the last few star city games legacy opens, and partly because I just have a gut feeling to want to include swords/disenchant/silence in this deck.

I think it is odd that no one is really even discussing the white splash when it seems like 2/4 of the recent top placing goblins decks were white splashes.

The results specifically are here, the top two are white splashes:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29843
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29840
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30749
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29179

I could have somehow searched this wrong so please correct me if I did, but it looks like half that made top 16 or higher were white splash, 1 mono red, and 1 with the rg splash.

Results don't mean everything. They could just mean the white splash was more popular or something for all I know, but I feel like maybe we should at least discuss the validity of including white instead of black or green based on the fact that one player made 5th playing 2 sacred foundries, and other took 8th with a similar (arguably better) build.

It is worth noting both of them played mogg fanatics despite the nay saying. One chose path to exile as a 3 of, and the other swords as a 4 of.Seems like path has a potential negative synergy with wasteland and port, but swords has a negative synergy with killing people.

Also I am very curious how silence/orim's chant would work against combo.

As a combo player myself I do know that while chalice or thorn can slow a combo deck down, a properly timed silence can completely win a game with a single mana. I don't know if it's too dangerous however to hope that your chant doesn't get duressed, as this seems the more likely scenario especially against TES and Ant builds that use them, but it seems worth testing considering how bad the combo matchup is.

arebennian

02-08-2010, 06:34 PM

Can't seem to get the link to work.
The White splash is popular in Italy (apparently), perhaps that is where the results are from?

junkdiver

02-08-2010, 06:53 PM

Can't seem to get the link to work.
The White splash is popular in Italy (apparently), perhaps that is where the results are from?

The first time I posted I had one link to all 4 and it was too big. I tried to post all 4 links and it seems like it is working for me. The decks are from recent SCG opens so they happened here in the states. Sorry for the broken links, hopefully they work now.

JonBarber

02-08-2010, 08:19 PM

Bluemagex2517

02-08-2010, 11:53 PM

alphastorm

02-09-2010, 12:58 AM

If you go back a few pages I posted a list, and that's how the conversation got started. I now believe I should add 1 matron to that list, but otherwise I think it is solid. You generally remove things like stingsourger which are great mid-late game but aren't that important. You can also remove seige gang if you don't expect to play him anyway.

Or you could replace the chrome mox with lotus petals. That way you can save yourself from losing card advantage and there is no need for the mox mid to late game anyway. Imo, it's a crappy card for this deck. What a waste of space.

JonBarber

02-09-2010, 01:12 AM

Or you could replace the chrome mox with lotus petals. That way you can save yourself from losing card advantage and there is no need for the mox mid to late game anyway. Imo, it's a crappy card for this deck. What a waste of space.

I agree. What makes goblins so good is the reliability. The high number of creatures is what makes this deck hard to deal with. Each non-goblin you add to the deck automatically hurts it by adding one less CA from ringleader. Turn one Instigator is virtually the same as turn one lackey, warrants the same reaction from the opponent, the only difference is that you now have -2 cards in hand. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

Nelis

02-09-2010, 03:32 AM

I'm curious as to what you remove from the list for the 3 mox. And what do you RFG for the mox?

To answer your 2nd question. If you intend to play Chrome Mox in midgame you could remove a Lackey.
To answer your 1st question: Don't play Chrome mox.

Tao

02-09-2010, 06:52 AM

Again, I rarely playtest with Goblins but this is true for any deck with Chrome Mox.
If you play Chrome Mox, you cut Mountains for them 1-1. You remove for them the in that situation worst card. For example if your only red cards are 3 Warchiefs and 1 Ringleader you remove a Warchief and if you have 3 Ringleaders and 1 Warchief you remove a Ringleader. Usually it is not so clear so take your mana curve, your next plays, your general game plan, the board position and your opponents deck into consideation and develop a feeling for what card you need least in this game.

JonBarber

02-09-2010, 08:21 AM

For example if your only red cards are 3 Warchiefs and 1 Ringleader you remove a Warchief and if you have 3 Ringleaders and 1 Warchief you remove a Ringleader.

Lol, yet in both of these cases I wouldn't want a mox in hand.

Tao

02-09-2010, 08:58 AM

Why not? You still have Warchief + Ringleader, only a turn faster.

Bluemagex2517

02-09-2010, 09:33 AM

FoulQ

02-09-2010, 11:01 AM

Tao's examples aren't my examples.

Here I'll give an example.

Concider this hand: Mountain, Fetch, Sting scorger, chrome mox, ringleader, Matron, lackey. Obviously turn 1 lackey. But on the draw you can protect lackey from Daze. Also, if you don't draw a 2 drop you can have a turn 2 matron (or warchief if you draw one) instead of nothing. What I find problematic about goblins is that it runs so many three drops that if they answer lackey or vial you do nothing on turn 2 they can easily answer your turn 3 play and then you can have all the CA in the world they have so much tempo it doesn't matter.

Lotus petal is worth considering, but chrome mox can help you cast that matron on turn 2 and cast a seige gang on turn 4 in the same game.

Now a few disclaimers. While I think my deck is better than most stock mono red lists I do not think is solves all of goblins problems in the current metagame. I personally am not planning on taking goblins to my next two events(Vestal the 12 and then the Richmond SSG 5k open). I think chrome mox is a place to start, some numbers need to fixed and the sideboard needs to be overhauled when that is all done. Goblins suffers from 2 big problems: the guys are too small (this has been semi-addressed by most players with chieftain), too many decks are equiped to deal with lacky, instigator, vial, and warchief, b/c without those cards active the deck is just too slow.

I'm glad you could come into the goblins thread, defy all the testing done by a bunch of other players, and end by telling us we are all wrong.

Deckbuilding is not so black and white. Card choices are not so black and white. It changes, decklists are fluid, not some stable concoction that you should be running the same everytime. Even the most stable of decklists like tempo thresh experiences fluxes based on metagame choices (particularly within the sideboard).

Here is what it sounds like TO ME. I'm not going to barge into random threads and tell people they are all wrong, but this is how I personally see it. You are trying to make goblins the most aggro deck in the format. The fact that you are fetching for turn 2 warchiefs is disturbing. Goblins isn't about measured speed, it is about sprinting. It sounds like you are suffering from the noninteractive player problem. I know you have played ichorid in the past. I know you are the guy who ran FOW in the sideboard, I remember source names well. With ichorid, such noninteractivity is okay.

But goblins is all about interaction. Instead of thinking "t2 matron or t4 siege-gang commander, do you see why chrome mox is good now?" you should be thinking "how can I best win this game between me and this other player?"

They printed this new card by the way, it's called Warren Instigator. It's the two drop you are looking for. It forces your opponent to stay in answer mode. Along with goblin piledriver, we have anywhere from 5-8 2cc drops. That's enough to consistently apply pressure. While curving out can be great for goblins (and is the easiest way to win), it is definitely not necessary, depending on the matchup.

I would have to do an extensive analysis to shy you away from chrome mox. I'm not a math major, so I'll never turn you away from chrome mox. But people have tested chrome mox in a variety of legacy decks (including goblins), and every deck but combo has dropped them. I would be very wary of a card that has shown no success in any aggro decks throughout legacy.

No, lotus petal is not worth considering. Lotus petal sucks. How has this thread come to this? This is sad. Chrome mox and lotus petal are horrible. I'm all for ideas, but if I was playing against a goblins player who led with a lotus petal, I'd honestly have to hold back laughter and be glad I got a bye. Goblins is NOT a combo deck!! Maybe at one point, it was capable of t1 lackey t2 nuts t3 nuts, but not anymore. The nature of lotus petal and chrome mox leans towarsd combo. AKA not goblins.

You're thinking about it all wrong with the weak creatures as well. Instead of trying to fix it with chieftain, you should try to make it so it is not a problem. This slightly depends on personal playstyle. But Chieftain will never fix the problem. Chieftain is there because he gives haste, first and foremost. And haste gives the deck that "sprinting" feel. We are an anaerobic deck, we are the definition of it. Zoo is an aerobic deck. Turn 1 nacatl, turn 2 pridemage, turn 3 removal + goyf, turn 4 KotR. That makes zoo players splooge. The +1/+1 is actually more useful against decks without many creatures, because it accelerates your clock. Creatureless decks tend to have more answers (well of course), so we need to kill them faster before they can draw them. Chieftain helps this.

I realize my thoughts are scattered. Yes, I'm not the best at arguing my points. I have a hard time putting these abstract philosophies into words. But I can tell you that basic magic theory goes against playing chrome mox in a legacy aggro deck, and that is supported by about three kajillion proven decklists.

But to sum it up, I'll basically just trying to say that you should try thinking of goblins as a sprinting aggro deck, not as a fast aggro deck. The pressure comes in spurts, but the pressure comes so suddenly that it forces opponents to prepare for the pressure before it even happens. Along with being able to adapt to a control role when necessary, that is what makes goblins special, and why it is still in the DtB forum.

However, I'm all for innovation, and appreciate that you are trying to change things. Don't get me wrong, all this thread activity is very exciting. But I disagree with the moves you are making. I'm also curious to hear what cards specifically you talk about when saying the deck needs a "sideboard overhaul," considering that legacy sideboards are so varied and hard to put down that you are asking for an overhaul of a sideboard that has no definite existence.