[DTB] Vial Goblins

[P.S.]

I am back to Goblins and back to the "Matron Toolbox" build. No matter what others seem to recommend, I am just not a fan of Warren Instigator, Goblin Chieftain, Rishadan Port, or splashing a second color. I guess they just do not match my playstyle.

I do, however, like maindeck Blood Moon. Especially with the increase of Lands.dec around me...but I can not bring myself to do that either. They have replaced Price of Progress in my Sideboard though.

I am not going to post my list again. The last thing this thread needs is more pages and pages of people blasting one-anothers card slot choices. With differing metagames, differing playstyles, & even differing strategies, it's really awkward to tell someone that one thing is more optimal than another, for the most part. Granted, it does have a limit. No one is trying to splash blue for Dreadnaught/Stifle in Goblins. But if someone wants to splash black, white or green, or play with Instigators and Chieftains with more creature control in the form of Incinerators/Scourgers/Weirding, then more power to them. Or even the whole Chrome Mox thing. If it's working for someone, and not just theory, then more power to him/her. It's just really hard for me to continually tinker with what is working for me. Why try to fix something that is not broken?

Besides, this is the internet, where everyone is anonymous. No one is going to back down from a random stranger online telling them that they or their card choices are bad anyway.

I really just wanted to say that I am happy that the metagame has shifted enough to where I feel comfortable with goblins again. There for awhile, it was just not an option for me anymore.

[FoulQ]

I am not going to post my list again. The last thing this thread needs is more pages and pages of people blasting one-anothers card slot choices. With differing metagames, differing playstyles, & even differing strategies, it's really awkward to tell someone that one thing is more optimal than another, for the most part. Granted, it does have a limit. No one is trying to splash blue for Dreadnaught/Stifle in Goblins. But if someone wants to splash black, white or green, or play with Instigators and Chieftains with more creature control in the form of Incinerators/Scourgers/Weirding, then more power to them. Or even the whole Chrome Mox thing. If it's working for someone, and not just theory, then more power to him/her. It's just really hard for me to continually tinker with what is working for me. Why try to fix something that is not broken?


Very well said. Like I mentioned on the last page, card choices and deck construction are fluid processes, and we can't look at it in a black and white way. Any suggestions I or others make should be taken with a grain of salt. However, like you said, there is a limit to ideas. I believe chrome mox crosses this boundary just like the blue splash does. And I'm not saying this out of a simple judgment of chrome mox. People used to play it in the deck, and consensus testing showed it was bad. Though that was a long time ago, chrome mox was dismissed because it is fundamentally flawed in goblins, not because of that past metagame.

Please remember this, however. Your decklist will never, ever be perfect. You shouldl always be in a constant state of modification. Why? Because you don't know if it is not "broken" or if it is. It is impossible to measure that your decklist is perfect. Example, just because you won a tournament playing 2 md chieftains does not mean that was the correct number of chieftains to play. You should always try to adapt, try to innovate, and try to look at it from a different perspective.

[P.S.]

I agree. I always test things, even if they don't work out in the end. I don't want to dismiss something completely without at least giving it a whirl. My deck is ever-evolving but I don't scrap it all and start from scratch whenever a new set comes out or whatever. You know?

I am still a fan of playing one or two "tech" cards. I have said it earlier in the thread too but I am a big fan of sitting down at a tournament and my opponent not knowing my starting 60 based off of my first turn. So, I still usually play a trick or two. Most people, when using the "optimal build" argument automatically dismiss those one or two slots and autochange them to something more streamline. I honestly believe that hurts me more than helps me. A mainboard Goblin King has won me games. Same for Final Fortune (that no one ever sees coming). Yes, arguments can be made against both...but that's missing the point.

Lately I have testing Lightning Crafter, amongst a few other cards and despite not being bad, I was never that impressed with any of them to change my deck around permanently.

[Zythe]

I'm kind of curious to know your reason for disliking instigator and chieftan. I ask because for me, those two guys have been really great, to the point where I'm probably going to start running chieftans as a playset. (I'd never go above 2 instigators)

[Bluemagex2517]

I'm glad you could come into the goblins thread, defy all the testing done by a bunch of other players, and end by telling us we are all wrong.

Deckbuilding is not so black and white. Card choices are not so black and white. It changes, decklists are fluid, not some stable concoction that you should be running the same everytime. Even the most stable of decklists like tempo thresh experiences fluxes based on metagame choices (particularly within the sideboard).

Here is what it sounds like TO ME. I'm not going to barge into random threads and tell people they are all wrong, but this is how I personally see it. You are trying to make goblins the most aggro deck in the format. The fact that you are fetching for turn 2 warchiefs is disturbing. Goblins isn't about measured speed, it is about sprinting. It sounds like you are suffering from the noninteractive player problem. I know you have played ichorid in the past. I know you are the guy who ran FOW in the sideboard, I remember source names well. With ichorid, such noninteractivity is okay.

But goblins is all about interaction. Instead of thinking "t2 matron or t4 siege-gang commander, do you see why chrome mox is good now?" you should be thinking "how can I best win this game between me and this other player?"

They printed this new card by the way, it's called Warren Instigator. It's the two drop you are looking for. It forces your opponent to stay in answer mode. Along with goblin piledriver, we have anywhere from 5-8 2cc drops. That's enough to consistently apply pressure. While curving out can be great for goblins (and is the easiest way to win), it is definitely not necessary, depending on the matchup.

I would have to do an extensive analysis to shy you away from chrome mox. I'm not a math major, so I'll never turn you away from chrome mox. But people have tested chrome mox in a variety of legacy decks (including goblins), and every deck but combo has dropped them. I would be very wary of a card that has shown no success in any aggro decks throughout legacy.

No, lotus petal is not worth considering. Lotus petal sucks. How has this thread come to this? This is sad. Chrome mox and lotus petal are horrible. I'm all for ideas, but if I was playing against a goblins player who led with a lotus petal, I'd honestly have to hold back laughter and be glad I got a bye. Goblins is NOT a combo deck!! Maybe at one point, it was capable of t1 lackey t2 nuts t3 nuts, but not anymore. The nature of lotus petal and chrome mox leans towarsd combo. AKA not goblins.

You're thinking about it all wrong with the weak creatures as well. Instead of trying to fix it with chieftain, you should try to make it so it is not a problem. This slightly depends on personal playstyle. But Chieftain will never fix the problem. Chieftain is there because he gives haste, first and foremost. And haste gives the deck that "sprinting" feel. We are an anaerobic deck, we are the definition of it. Zoo is an aerobic deck. Turn 1 nacatl, turn 2 pridemage, turn 3 removal + goyf, turn 4 KotR. That makes zoo players splooge. The +1/+1 is actually more useful against decks without many creatures, because it accelerates your clock. Creatureless decks tend to have more answers (well of course), so we need to kill them faster before they can draw them. Chieftain helps this.

I realize my thoughts are scattered. Yes, I'm not the best at arguing my points. I have a hard time putting these abstract philosophies into words. But I can tell you that basic magic theory goes against playing chrome mox in a legacy aggro deck, and that is supported by about three kajillion proven decklists.

But to sum it up, I'll basically just trying to say that you should try thinking of goblins as a sprinting aggro deck, not as a fast aggro deck. The pressure comes in spurts, but the pressure comes so suddenly that it forces opponents to prepare for the pressure before it even happens. Along with being able to adapt to a control role when necessary, that is what makes goblins special, and why it is still in the DtB forum.

However, I'm all for innovation, and appreciate that you are trying to change things. Don't get me wrong, all this thread activity is very exciting. But I disagree with the moves you are making. I'm also curious to hear what cards specifically you talk about when saying the deck needs a "sideboard overhaul," considering that legacy sideboards are so varied and hard to put down that you are asking for an overhaul of a sideboard that has no definite existence.


Apparently you missed all my posts previous to the one defending chrome mox. I say this because you mention Warren Instigator, of which the deck list I posted contained 3 of (which was also being questioned by the people questioning chrome mox).

I really don't understand the black and white comment, concidering I was debating someone who was arguing that you should also play 4 chrome mox or none. I purposefully stated the current metagame. What I mean by that is the metagame that has emerged from SSG's 5ks. I would not suggest my list for a small local event, unless it matched that metagame. When there was lost tempo and combo decks in the format Goblins could run with a ton of three drops and no excelleration, but I don't think that is correct now (as opposed to always as you seem to thing I mean).

By sideboard overhaul I was refering to the deck I posted, which the s/b probably isn't as good as the main deck.

[Bluemagex2517]

Chrome mox debate:

Please don't tell me card advantage doesn't matter. You're just cutting yourself short. So that means they have a starting hand of seven cards to your six. Theoretically speaking, everyone of your cards besides lands should be a threat. So now you have minus one threat. This is an aggro deck first. Chrome mox is not a threat. It shouldn't even be considered. For those who wants to argue what about vial not being a threat, well it's just too good against control. And control is too good in legacy right now. But I do side out vial against other aggro decks.

If you have such as easy time finding the right cards to remove in your opening hand then 1. it's a hand that should have been mulliganed or 2. You shouldn't be playing those cards.

If you want to speed up your deck, there are otherways. Examples are Frogtosser Banneret and goblin warchief. Even simian spirit guide has a potential to swing for 2.

I'm not saying card advantage doesn't matter. I'm saying goblins has so much CA it can lose a little to add some speed. I'm not making goblins and all out aggro deck. I'm just adding 3 moxes, and using mogg war marshal instead of Gempalm.

The thing is, so many people have been questioning my choices without testing my lists. I've tested many rencent top 8 lists, mono red and Rg. Give my list a try.

When I post a list it's because I'm having success with it.

[P.S.]

I'm kind of curious to know your reason for disliking instigator and chieftan.

Warren Instigator is basically because in a lot of match-ups (like Zoo), the board position makes it so that it's just an expensive 1/1. To force him through would require a lot more critter control, which I do not want to include. Also the inclusion of Instigator usually leads to more high-end gobbos, like increasing the number of Siege-Gang Commanders, playing a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or whatever. In fact, if I am on the draw, a lot of the time in aggro match-ups, I find myself Sideboarding out Goblin Lackey. The last thing I want is Lackey 5-8 in those matches too.

Goblin Chieftain is just that my 3cc is clogged up to begin with. Plus, what makes Warchief so good is the reduction of cost, not the Haste. I think people overvalue the Haste aspect a little too much and it makes them think Chieftain is better than he is. I run a single Goblin King mainboard because I find the Mountainwalk more beneficial than the additional Haste. Chieftain is also not Warchief 5-8 and he does not provide for me what I am wanting from that slot. Being able to make Piledrivers have Haste with more efficiency is great but, again, the Red Zone is usually clogged up with critters in Legacy right now and Piledriver is just going to get blocked by their worst guy anyway. Yes, the argument that you can "sneak" a Piledriver with Haste in there comes up sometimes but from my testing, I have never wanted (or needed) the Chieftain. Not to mention my number of Piledrivers is fluctuating a lot lately (some what due to the decrease in Merfolk as well). I have tested Chieftain a lot. I know he is a staple to a lot of people nowadays. I just personally find him unneeded.

[Zythe]

I agree with you about instigators in the zoo matchup. I usually side those out against zoo as well. I keep the lackeys in though because on turn 1 it's still a must-answer and usually they will play removal on it instead of playing a dude for fear of turn 2 scourger/weirding. Them not playing a guy on turn 1 is a pretty good tempo boost, and I've found that this (in my opinion horrific) matchup it's all about gaining tempo on them. Their guys are just way better than ours and cost a lot less, so we constantly have to keep putting more dudes on the table than they can.

This is also the reason I like chieftan so much. To be honest, in this matchup I like his +1/+1 much more than his haste ability, since more often than not my guys are gona be blocking anyway. This matchup is so bad for me that I even considered running some number of mad aunties main (I play the Rb version). But the more I think about it, the more this seems like a horrible idea. I suppose I should actually test it first though.

It's awesome that you just reminded me about Goblin King. He's probably insane against zoo. I'll have to test it. =)

Also, I'm curious how many maindeck removal (be it scourger, gempalm, weirding, etc) slots you guys run. I've been finding myself dedicating less and less slots to it as the number of other goblins I want to run increases. The toolbox-ness of matrons just tempts me to dedicate a lot less slots to removal than I probably should.

[lillelassie]

If you have a decent amount if zoo in your meta - is it worth it to have a maindeck tutortarget in Mogg War Marshall to tutor for against zoo with goblin matron? Or do you really just want to tutor up Goblin ringleader or removal instead? What are you thoughts on this?

[jrsthethird]

Goblin Chieftain is just that my 3cc is clogged up to begin with. Plus, what makes Warchief so good is the reduction of cost, not the Haste. I think people overvalue the Haste aspect a little too much and it makes them think Chieftain is better than he is. I run a single Goblin King mainboard because I find the Mountainwalk more beneficial than the additional Haste..

The best part about RB IMO is the option to play Frogtosser. He smooths out the curve amazingly; I don't run Warchiefs at all because I have a playset of Bannerets. I don't know why I didn't consider the Mountainwalk before; I'm going to remove a Chieftan for a King for tech against Zoo, the mirror, and anyone else who runs Mountains.

[JonBarber]

I've been trying to play test against as many decks as possible, and some surprisingly difficult match-ups I ran into last night were dredge and aggro loam. Dredge seemed to just depend on whether or not I drew hate. Aggro loam stomped over me. Any advice on these two? I found incinerating my own guys was one way to slow dredge down.

Also, after last night my sideboard is looking like this:

4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish

Thats 6 grave hate, 6 combo hate, and with 4 maindeck warren weirding, 7 Progentitus hate. This is for a meta expected to have a LOT of probant/countertop, dredge, merfolk, and a decent amount combo.

[Joe_C]

I'm kind of curious to know your reason for disliking instigator and chieftan. I ask because for me, those two guys have been really great, to the point where I'm probably going to start running chieftans as a playset. (I'd never go above 2 instigators)

Instigator isnt that amazing unless you are facing slower control decks all day. It tandem instigator/chieftain is just nutty, but as you said I personally would not run more than 2 instigator since he doesnt do enough "on his own" to warrant 3-4 copies. I currently am running 3 chieftain/2 instigator/3 SCG and have done well with that mix. I was only running 2 piledrivers at my last tournament and I never had a problem putting games away. Im testing a list with 4 piledrivers again, but I think I will be dropping back to 2 so I can put in 2 war marshalls since he is amazing in the aggro matchup.

In most cases when I go into g2/3 my first 3 cards I take out are instigator x2 and 1 SCG. That doesnt effect the maindeck's consistency at all

[Zythe]

I actually think instigators play a really important role for goblins, and I wouldn't play any less than 2, even if i wouldn't run more than 2 either. They are a 2-drop, which is something that this deck is short on and they provide such a huge tempo boost because they are a card that they must deal with. My favorite play would probably have to be turn 1 vial, followed by turn 2 instigator + EOT vial in lackey, which happens a fair amount of the time. Even without the vial, turn 1 lackey into turn 2 instigator is a pretty tempo oriented play that forces your opponent to find an answer to. It doesn't even matter if instigator connects or not, (although I find it almost impossible to lose when he does) just the presence of him makes your opponent go into defensive mode, which is what we want.

[Joe_C]

I actually think instigators play a really important role for goblins, and I wouldn't play any less than 2, even if i wouldn't run more than 2 either. They are a 2-drop, which is something that this deck is short on and they provide such a huge tempo boost because they are a card that they must deal with. My favorite play would probably have to be turn 1 vial, followed by turn 2 instigator + EOT vial in lackey, which happens a fair amount of the time. Even without the vial, turn 1 lackey into turn 2 instigator is a pretty tempo oriented play that forces your opponent to find an answer to. It doesn't even matter if instigator connects or not, (although I find it almost impossible to lose when he does) just the presence of him makes your opponent go into defensive mode, which is what we want.

I did a ton of playtesting without the 2 instigators over the past few weeks and just felt that the instigators were too good not to run. Although since I run port it puts more of a strain on my manabase to cast them, I like having the 2 of them in my deck since it allows me to run 3 SCG which is a huge card in my meta now. Only running 2 piledrivers so I can run 2 mogg war marshall is feeling really nice at the moment. I cant bring myself to drop port, so I have my land count at 22 and only run 3 chieftain.

[ddt15]

This is my new list, by cmc:

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Skirk Prospector

4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Goblin Ringleader

2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Wasteland
18 Mountain

-sb-
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Anarchy
1 Goblin Tinkerer

I'm quite fond of the prospectors, which allow for more consistent opening hands, turn 2 warchief/chieftain/magus. They also greatly speed the deck up midgame or with a warchief in play, often allowing me to kill my opponent this turn instead of next turn. I also added a sharpshooter and 3 sideboard anarchies as last tournament all the matches I lost were to Moat for which I had no answer besides siege-gang. War marshals i did not include because you can usually dish out 7-8 damage with a prospector/sharpshooter late game even without marshals, although they are obviously very good vs aggro decks. I ran a single instigator last tournament but i was very unimpressed by it. It just doesn't have the speed of a lackey and by turn 3 there is almost always a blocker.

[(nameless one)]

Since you're running Skirk Prospector, have you ever tried using the 'Goblin Combo'?

Its basically Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker, Lightning Crafter and a sac outlet (Skirk Prospector). The combo is essentially your back up if pure aggro just wont work.

[02Drop]

Is there any data or commentary anyone can provide on efficiency of R/b vs R/g vs mono-R in a blind meta? I'm leaning towards G splash, since a maindeck Tin Street Hooly usually has a target, and I've got the options for them all, but not sure what I should play. Aside from my friend coming with me playing Dredge, I don't know what the meta at a small upcoming tourney will be.

Any thought on how one might fare?

[Arsenal]

I've generally stuck with 24 lands in my mono-R build; 16 Mountain, 4 Wasteland, 4 Ports. I see a lot of lists dipping into 22-23 territory. How comfortable are you guys with doing that?

[dsg123456789]

As someone mentioned before, Tuktuk Scrapper seems to be a good card that could be a better choice than Tin Street in a non-green build. It gives you artifact destruction that's not awful with Warchief, and if you splash black, he can draw benefit from Frogtossers too. It might change your playstyle, but it serves a similar purpose albeit in a potentially more powerful way.

[Tacosnape]

It still amazes me how many garbage lists appear on this thread running subpar goblins with subpar reasoning behind them, that run 0-2 Warren Instigators on grounds that "I don't like them" or "They don't suit my playstyle." This is nothing more than an unwarranted resistance to change.

Warren Instigator is ungodly amazing. For two red, you get a guy who strikes fear into the hearts of the masses. If he gets removed, he gets removed. Big deal. If he hits, he breaks games open. If he doesn't hit, you force the opponent to play defensive against a deck with a fantastic long game.

I've been running 4 Instigators for quite awhile now and wouldn't change this for the world.

I'll agree Chieftain's overrated. I'll agree that most everything that's come along for Goblins in the last year's overrated. But Instigator's a monster. If he doesn't match your playstyle? Change your playstyle. Learn to play with him.

[JonBarber]

It still amazes me how many garbage lists appear on this thread running subpar goblins with subpar reasoning behind them, that run 0-2 Warren Instigators on grounds that "I don't like them" or "They don't suit my playstyle." This is nothing more than an unwarranted resistance to change.

Warren Instigator is ungodly amazing. For two red, you get a guy who strikes fear into the hearts of the masses. If he gets removed, he gets removed. Big deal. If he hits, he breaks games open. If he doesn't hit, you force the opponent to play defensive against a deck with a fantastic long game.

I've been running 4 Instigators for quite awhile now and wouldn't change this for the world.

I'll agree Chieftain's overrated. I'll agree that most everything that's come along for Goblins in the last year's overrated. But Instigator's a monster. If he doesn't match your playstyle? Change your playstyle. Learn to play with him.

I agree very much so. Not to mention all of the tricks you can take advantage of with the double strike. He fufills a vital 2cc spot, and is one more thing that they waste their counterspells/swords on.

[ddt15]

The reason i don't like instigator:
- he is a turn slower than lackey, which means there will almost always be a blocker for him.
- if he does come through, its already later in the game and it means there are no blockers, no moat/humility/deed/etc and he hasn't got swords to plowshares or burn, in short its a situation when you are going to win anyway, at this point i would much prefer a piledriver/chieftain to end the game quicker.

In other words hes only amazing if you can drop him on turn 1 which requires you to run 4 plus an additional 4 free mana sources (chrome mox/or that spirit that gives R when you remove it), which means giving up 8 scarce deck slots, and even then you still need a stingscourger/gempalm on turn two usually to get him to deal damage to a player.

I would be very interested in your decklist and why you think he's so great.

[Nelis]

The reason i don't like instigator:
- he is a turn slower than lackey, which means there will almost always be a blocker for him.
- if he does come through, its already later in the game and it means there are no blockers, no moat/humility/deed/etc and he hasn't got swords to plowshares or burn, in short its a situation when you are going to win anyway, at this point i would much prefer a piledriver/chieftain to end the game quicker.

In other words hes only amazing if you can drop him on turn 1 which requires you to run 4 plus an additional 4 free mana sources (chrome mox/or that spirit that gives R when you remove it), which means giving up 8 scarce deck slots, and even then you still need a stingscourger/gempalm on turn two usually to get him to deal damage to a player.

I disagree with you on your first point. Unless you are playing against Zoo I see no problem in it being blocked early game. Taco is right that it is seen as such a threat that they will always block it. Instigator will either kill that creature and does not die (think Dark Confidant or Silvergill Adept) or it dies but takes away theirs too (think any random merfolk). It also happenend often enough that I killed a Tarmogoyf. So I automatically disagree with your 3rd point. I can see that if you think you have to play Chrome Mox or Simian Spirit Guide you don't like Instigator.

I agree with your 2nd point though. But the main reason I dislike Instigator that too often I had no relevant goblins in hand to put into play. The other reason is that in MonoR I like to play 4 Ports (and 4 Wasteland). I really hate it when I have a mountain and a nonbasic in hand with an Instigator but have to mulligan because im not sure if I'll draw a 2nd mountain. So I rather play none. But I haven't written Instigator off completely. I'm inclined to put them in Rb or Rg or Rgb lists because in those lists I will not play Rishadan Ports and having 2 red mana turn 2 is more likely to happen. (although wasteland on a dual is a bitch too)

[jrsthethird]

I agree very much so. Not to mention all of the tricks you can take advantage of with the double strike. He fufills a vital 2cc spot, and is one more thing that they waste their counterspells/swords on.

In mono-R I would play some of him without question. In RB Frogtosser instead of Warchief really helps smooth out the curve a lot, so my 2-spot is something like

4 Frogtosser
2 War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding
2 Incinerator
2 Piledriver

So I don't really have room for another 2-drop, but maybe in the future I'll try him out. Every card I listed is more useful in both early- and late-game than Instigator, and I feel like for him to be worth it you need to run at least 3, which I don't. I'd much rather have a toolbox of removal options than a guy who just turns sideways. I'd love to run Slavering Nulls as well but he doesn't affect the board when he comes out so it's a little hard to justify him over these choices.

Although I want to try bringing back my old-school Goblin Sligh (hit a couple first turn SGC's back in the day, before Top and Goyf and other shit was even out) and run Instigator next to Reckless Charge to smash with a 4/1 double strike. =D

[Tacosnape]

Again, it doesn't matter if there's almost always a blocker. For the following reasons.

1. We have removal.
2. If they're leaving a blocker, that sometimes means they aren't swinging, which is good in a deck with an amazing long game.

Additionally, the following points should be considered.

1. If you have an untapped Vial at 2 and they haven't seen your hand, they either have to leave a blocker or mana open for removal just for the threat of Instigator. If they -don't-, you can punish them severely.
2. If you have an untapped Vial at 1 and 2 lands down, they have to do the same thing for the fear of Warchief, Vial in Instigator, swing.


List Taco,
with sideboard and boarding plans....
.....
...
..
.
And a cupcake.
Please?

(Cupcake for Arebennian)

Also, list.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Perish
X Pithing Needle, Blood Moon, Goblin Chieftain, depending on metagame.

This is my list. I'll post boarding plans when I have more time.

[JonBarber]

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Perish
X Pithing Needle, Blood Moon, Goblin Chieftain, depending on metagame.

This is my list. I'll post boarding plans when I have more time.

I have the exact same list except I run 3 chieftain. He is SO good, especially when you do things like put him into play after the first strike on instigator.

Your sideboard makes me curious. Do you find 4 Rav trap is effective enough against grave decks? I've found Leyline of the Void much more useful. Especially because its pretty easy to hardcast on turn 4 should they bounce it. Needing it in your opening hand hurts things a little, but this deck is good about catching back up to speed.

For awhile I was running just 4 mindbreak trap for combo, but found it wasn't enough. Ant can just duress/chant you and you lose. I put some thorn of amethyst in to compliment mindbreak trap. Mbt lets me survive until turn two to drop the thorn. Once you do that, they are in serious trouble.

[FoulQ]

I very much like the list Taco. I'd probably play the same thing RB except -1 Piledriver and +1 Chieftain (mainly as a 1of in the spirit of jitte in zoo, not really as a tutor target). I'm also not really sold on Auntie's Hovel, but the importance of not getting stifled first turn and hitting your first two-three lands can be very important for goblins, so I see it's strength, since your opponent probably isn't going to have time to wasteland you (but might have time to stifle).

I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on why you have picked ravenous trap over other graveyard hate (since it is more narrow but arguably more effective against ichorid), and why you are running a kind of awkward number of combo hate (is mindbreak trap really worth it?).

I'm also in the warren instigator camp. The reason I don't run 4 all the time is because of the manabase. He also allows you to run 3 SGC, which is awesome.

[Moosedog]

Forgive me if I’m just preaching to the choir, but I don’t think everyone is realizing (maybe myself included) that goblins is undergoing/undergone another transformation. There is a good chance that in today’s diversified meta a playset of instigators is the right move. There is so much resistance to instigator because no one is willing to make the other additional changes to include him. Its like when favre went to Minnesota. They played a lot different this year than before because they adapted to Favre because he was an Improvement to the team. Instigator is like Favre except a lot younger, perhaps gobs needs to be changed to included instigator and what is giving up is worth it because it makes the deck better. I'm currently running two instigator cause I don’t have time to figure out how to adapt or if it actually will be better but I think other people here have tried it so stop saying its bad when you just throw him in and won't make the fundamental change.

[Joe_C]

Forgive me if I’m just preaching to the choir, but I don’t think everyone is realizing (maybe myself included) that goblins is undergoing/undergone another transformation. There is a good chance that in today’s diversified meta a playset of instigators is the right move. There is so much resistance to instigator because no one is willing to make the other additional changes to include him. Its like when favre went to Minnesota. They played a lot different this year than before because they adapted to Favre because he was an Improvement to the team. Instigator is like Favre except a lot younger, perhaps gobs needs to be changed to included instigator and what is giving up is worth it because it makes the deck better. I'm currently running two instigator cause I don’t have time to figure out how to adapt or if it actually will be better but I think other people here have tried it so stop saying its bad when you just throw him in and won't make the fundamental change.

If people are just saying it is bad without testing, then honestly why care if they want to run it or not. In certain metagames I can see him being excluded, but you have to realize in most matches, the first cards you are going to board out are instigators. I adapted my list to allow 2 instigator, 3 chieftain, and a 3rd SCG since the extra "lackey" effects allow me to, and having the third has just won me games. Like FoulQ said, if you run port, it becomes more difficult to run larger quantities of instigator.. I feel 2 is the correct number in my list, but I also do not run the full playset of piledrivers since I dont think they are needed in my meta as a 4-of to win me games.

[arebennian]

Also, list.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Perish
X Pithing Needle, Blood Moon, Goblin Chieftain, depending on metagame.

This is my list. I'll post boarding plans when I have more time.


Thankyou. I'm looking forward to the boarding plan. In addition to the questions everyone else has asked, I'd like to get your insights into some of your selections.
Here they are

Warren Wierding: Do you agree with FoulQ that it forces goblins into the aggro role as it isn't as flexible as other options? (As noted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-[DTW]-Vial-Goblins&p=426869&viewfull=1#post426869 ) Or is this not such a problem as with mulligans an aggressive beginning puts the opponent on the back foot and even when they stabilise Goblins late game is usually stronger?
One question that just came to mind> Do you ever Wierding your own blocker if yoiu are on the defensive, for example against zoo to make additional blockers next turn? Seems similar to Mogg War Marshall in this situation.

Black Goblins: Neither Frogtosser to speed up and smooth out the curve or Earwig to fight hate didn't make the cut? Hell maybe even Wort as Ringleader #5-6 (although I know he/she/it wasn't popular after a bit of playtesting).

No Chieftain: I know MB slots are lacking but 5-8 haste enabler looks strong. Also helps fight Plague.

Plague Answer: I know it is falling from favour, but you don't seem to have any answer to one or two Plagues hitting the field.

I'm not being critical here, I'd just like to know your assessment and exclusions of particular cards from the MB and those already asked of the sideboard.
Looking forward to the responses.

[FoxBlade]

The reason i don't like instigator:
- he is a turn slower than lackey, which means there will almost always be a blocker for him.
- if he does come through, its already later in the game and it means there are no blockers, no moat/humility/deed/etc and he hasn't got swords to plowshares or burn, in short its a situation when you are going to win anyway, at this point i would much prefer a piledriver/chieftain to end the game quicker.


Well I like instigator for a lot of reasons...

First if he hits - he can win you the game.

Also he has really good synergies with the build that I went with. For example, he can put down matron, trigger her ability and then put down whatever goblin you tutor up.

He could put down goblin ring leader and you draw 4 and can put down anyone of the goblins you draw..

He can put down chieftain and give your goblins +1/+1 when they do their damage.

I run gempalm for removal, so sometimes it can end up with games going turn 1 lackey, turn 2 instigator, and then using gempalm to remove one of their creatures (assuming they put out 2 themselves) on turn 3 and swing. So sometimes it pays to have 2 (or more) creatures with lackey's ability.

Plus, double strike is freaking awesome anyway and chieftain helps make him even buffer and with Jitte - yikes X_X;

anyway here's my list...

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [A] Taiga
7 [LRW] Mountain (2)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Forest (2)
1 [GP] Stomping Ground

// Creatures
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle

[Tacosnape]

Ok first, re Mindbreak Trap: I admit that my board is in constant flux and that MBT is the new guy on the block. I typically just decide to lose to Storm Combo, but in my early testing it's letting me steal a few games when combined with Lackeys and Wastelands. Making Storm Combo keep Chant and Duress in against Goblins is probably a good thing. That said, there's a good chance it'll go back to being Pithing Needle or Goblin Chieftain, which were the guys in there before Mindbreak and Perish.



Warren Wierding: Do you agree with FoulQ that it forces goblins into the aggro role as it isn't as flexible as other options? (As noted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-[DTW]-Vial-Goblins&p=426869&viewfull=1#post426869 ) Or is this not such a problem as with mulligans an aggressive beginning puts the opponent on the back foot and even when they stabilise Goblins late game is usually stronger?

I don't agree with this at all. In fact I think it's completely ridiculous. Warren Weirding moves Goblins more to a midrange aggro-control variant. And what's non-flexible about being able to kill every single threat in the format and being includable on your card draw?


Black Goblins: Neither Frogtosser to speed up and smooth out the curve or Earwig to fight hate didn't make the cut? Hell maybe even Wort as Ringleader #5-6 (although I know he/she/it wasn't popular after a bit of playtesting).

Instigator replaced Frogtosser. Never liked Wort. Wort's terrible. And don't particularly love Earwig Squad either, although I admit it's playable in certain metagames.


No Chieftain: I know MB slots are lacking but 5-8 haste enabler looks strong. Also helps fight Plague.
That's why it shows up in my board if I anticipate Plague.


Plague Answer: I know it is falling from favour, but you don't seem to have any answer to one or two Plagues hitting the field.
You answered your own point.

[ChillerKiller0815]

Now with all the discussion going on about Warren Instigator wouldn´t be Goblin Sledder be an interesting choice?

- He makes Ichorid-matchups a lot easier -> 1 Sledder can kill every Bridge during the entire game

- He is a good Jitte solver

- Volcanic fallout / Pyroclasm don´t kill every dude anymore

- Sometimes you can safe a crucial Gobbo against a Grim Lavamancer/Darkblast/ Fire//Ice /Bolt....

- He does Combattricks and pushes thru these last points of dmg

- A Warren Instigator goes to the dome for at least 4 points of damage on turn 3 and up to 8 -12 if combined with other Gobbos and Marshal´s !
(1 Turn Sledder / 2 Turn Intigaor / 3 Turn Marshal or other Gobbos --> Boosting Intigator for up to +5/+5 --> 12 dmg + 2 Gobbodrops

- Helps keep a turn 2 lackey alive against 1/1´s

- If you play a single Sharpshooter in the SB he helps against stuff like Moat


Maybe as a two off.

What do you guys think???

[FoulQ]

I don't agree with this at all. In fact I think it's completely ridiculous. Warren Weirding moves Goblins more to a midrange aggro-control variant. And what's non-flexible about being able to kill every single threat in the format and being includable on your card draw?

When I was talking about Warren Weirding I was comparing it specifically to Stingscourger. I stand by what I said.

[alphastorm]

Stingscourger cannot stop Progenitus. Warren weirding is good against him but only when they have one creature in play. How do goblin decks deal with him?

[DrHealex]

Win faster than them, obv. 1 prog isn't going to defend them against your army, and like you said: Weriding is good.

So yea, I'm not terribly worried about being paired against that deck, unless they drop a ghostly prison which is in few SBs (all builds can deal with proaganda)

[bakofried]

Is the Wasteland/Port package required in an undeveloped meta? I'm not asking this out of Budget concerns, but merely as a meta question.

[DrHealex]

depends on your meta. Do they play nonbasics ---> play wasteland. (so metas are full of cheap players)
Port can go either way, its generally better only vs control. My metagame is mostly aggro so it doesn't do much except screw me out of a needed red source on occassion.

OBVIOUSLY, the question also depends on WHICH goblin deck you are playing (R, R/b, R/g/w)

[bakofried]

Mono-Red. I play it for 2 reasons:
1. I like Mono-Colored theme decks.
and
2. I can't afford me Duals or appropriate fetches.
Besides, the only reason I would splash would be for Perish in the Side. A lot of people have started making Johnny-tastic green decks since WW in my meta.
But I do have a guy who will trade me the last 2 Wastelands I needed, and I recently acquired the final Lackey I had been missing.
I'm also torn as to use a Matron toolbox or not. Apparently not much of that has been going on, and I'm wondering why.

[Tacosnape]

First off, Goblin Sledder is terrible.

Second,


When I was talking about Warren Weirding I was comparing it specifically to Stingscourger. I stand by what I said.

Well. I apologize if it sounded like I was calling you ridiculous. I wasn't. Honestly, I didn't actually read what you said that was referenced. I was mostly responding just straight up to the notion that Warren Weirding put you more in the aggro role, which I disagree with completely.

I can see where you can make the point that Weirding is less versatile than Stingscourger. It definitely is. But for this versatility, I think you give up a ton of power. Warren Weirding saves your ass against things. Progenitus and Iona, for one. For two, Stingscourger in the midgame doesn't get something gone for good. Warren Weirding does.

However, the versatility of Stingscourger is why I won't ever play without at least one.

[(nameless one)]

It still amazes me how many garbage lists appear on this thread running subpar goblins with subpar reasoning behind them, that run 0-2 Warren Instigators on grounds that "I don't like them" or "They don't suit my playstyle." This is nothing more than an unwarranted resistance to change.

Warren Instigator is ungodly amazing. For two red, you get a guy who strikes fear into the hearts of the masses. If he gets removed, he gets removed. Big deal. If he hits, he breaks games open. If he doesn't hit, you force the opponent to play defensive against a deck with a fantastic long game.

I've been running 4 Instigators for quite awhile now and wouldn't change this for the world.

I'll agree Chieftain's overrated. I'll agree that most everything that's come along for Goblins in the last year's overrated. But Instigator's a monster. If he doesn't match your playstyle? Change your playstyle. Learn to play with him.

Even though I haven't had any success running Instigators, I am still trying to chase them. I recently acquired my 4th one along with my playset of Guides.

Anyways, maybe I need more practice on running Instigators. Anyhow, would you like to share your list along with an ideal sideboard for an evershifting meta? Thanks.

[Arsenal]

Scroll back a page or two, you'll find it.

I'm curious to know for those running Mono-red, are you really comfortable with only 22 land, 6-8 of which are non-red mana producing? I suspect you're leaning on Lackey/Vial/Instigator to power out actual threats, but still, there's a lot of RR spells running around. Have you ever found yourselves wanting to up the Mountain count and bring the total land count to 24? That's what I'm currently running and am rather skitish about dropping down to 22.

[bakofried]

How comfortable are you guys with a 3/3 split of Scourgers and Incinerators? I love the bounce; especially due to the synergy with Lackey. But having straight-up removal is golden. Should I tip the scales in either direction?

[jrsthethird]

Played the build I posted a few days ago at Vestal, went 4-3. I lost to JonBarber in the mirror, which I believe I had a chance to win both games and just really fucked it up. Not going to go into it because I should've known better. Also lost to stupid ANT with turn 1 kill (misplayed the first game as well =/; I did no testing against ANT so I had no clue really what was best to do). Third loss was to a deck with Hexmage/Depths combo as well as Living Wish, Thoughtseize, Smallpox, Hymn, Bloodghast, Mox Diamond, etc.; don't know what it was called.

[JonBarber]

Played the build I posted a few days ago at Vestal, went 4-3. I lost to JonBarber in the mirror, which I believe I had a chance to win both games and just really fucked it up. Not going to go into it because I should've known better. Also lost to stupid ANT with turn 1 kill (misplayed the first game as well =/; I did no testing against ANT so I had no clue really what was best to do). Third loss was to a deck with Hexmage/Depths combo as well as Living Wish, Thoughtseize, Smallpox, Hymn, Bloodghast, Mox Diamond, etc.; don't know what it was called.

You lost to TES, not ANT. Close enough.

I got into the top 8 at the 78 man vestal tourney. I'll post what I used tomorrow as well as a mini report. There was another R/b goblin deck to top 8 as well. Good stuff.

[FoulQ]

Scroll back a page or two, you'll find it.

I'm curious to know for those running Mono-red, are you really comfortable with only 22 land, 6-8 of which are non-red mana producing? I suspect you're leaning on Lackey/Vial/Instigator to power out actual threats, but still, there's a lot of RR spells running around. Have you ever found yourselves wanting to up the Mountain count and bring the total land count to 24? That's what I'm currently running and am rather skitish about dropping down to 22.

I've been running 23: 17 mountain, 4 wasteland, 2 rishadan port. With x4 warchief x3 sgc x2-3 chieftain x3-4 instigator. And that has worked fine for me.

[Mantis]

This is nothing more than an unwarranted resistance to change.
This post struck me like no forum post has ever done. Perhaps I have been making excuses not to improve my Goblins deck as I was havnig tons of success with it (winning or splitting 4 out of 5 tournaments I played it). However, I am now planning on donig well in GP Madrid and that is something different than winning local tournaments. You just can not afford to let yourself be hold back by trivial things like suboptimal preferences and emotional attachments. There is no prize for the player who designed the coolest deck or has the most funky Matron suite, all that counts is winning lots of matches and losing few. This is achieved through running the most powerful, consistent and synergystic strategy, right now I believe Taco's build outperforms the other lists on all three.

I did some brief testing with Taco's build and I am very optimistic about the findings. I'm hoping do a lot more testing in the upcoming week.
My initial worries were that Rishadan Port will be missed and that splashing black makes you prone to Tempo Threshs disruption suite of Stifle/Waste. My theory right now however; Badlands/Hovel/Fetch make the manabase worse, red lands instead of Ports make the manabase better, net result = 0. The powerloss of no Port is offset by giving you a lot more to do on turn 2, while Goblin Piledriver is not so hot on turn 2, Warren Instigator and Warren Weirding definitely are. I am not entirely convinced with Stingscourger yet and I might like a Mogg War Marshall in that slot, as I find myself often searching for it with Matron. Additionally it has some weird synergy with Warren Weirding that might come up once in a blue moon, though that's definately not the reason to run it.

However, I believe the most is to be gained from the sideboard. The black splash grants access to Thoughtseize and Duress, to shore up both the combo matchup but also are generally nice against hard matchups such as Stax and Enchantress.

I am testing with Taco’s maindeck and this sideboard:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mindbreak Trap or 4 Duress have not decided yet
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Perish

No Pyrokinesis, indeed, it probably improves your matchup against Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo, but I believe these matchups are doable and It’s not like Pyrokinesis is going to make these matchups a walk in the park. Look at the other sideboard cards, when boarding in Mindbreak Trap and Thoughtseize, your matchup against ANT goes from something like 30% to 60% (very rough estimation please let’s not start an argument about this). Relic of Progenitus will improve your matchup against Aggro Loam, Tempo Thresh and Ichorid drastically. Perish will drastically improve your matchup against Survival Bant, Elves, Aggro Loam and Tempo Thresh. Your slots are limited and my philosophy is to gain as much percentage points across the field.

My general sideboard lines as they stand now:

Merfolk
keep the way the deck is

Zoo
-3 Piledriver +3 Perish

Tempo Thresh
-3 Piledriver, -2 Incinerator, -2 Instigator, +4 Relic of Progenitus, +3 Perish

Ichorid
On the play: -1 Stingscourger, -4 Warren Weirding, -3 Piledriver, +4 Relic, +4 Seize
On the draw: -4 Warren Weirding, +4 Relic

ANT
-4 Warren Weirding, -1 Stingscourger, -2 Incinerator, -1 Siege Gang Commander
+4 Thoughtseize, +4 Mindbreak Trap/Duress

Surviving Bant
-1 Incinerator, -1 Siege Gang, -1 Piledriver
+3 Perish

Counter/Top
Depends heavily on the list, if they play Mongoose, I’d side in Relic, if they play Hierarch and Qasali in goes Perish. If they play 4 Rhox War Monk I’d keep in Piledriver.

Enchantress
-2 Incinerator, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Warren Weirding
+4 Thoughtseize
If I play Duress -2 Siege Gang, -2 Warren Weirding, +4 Duress).

Mirror
-4 Warren Weirding
+4 Thoughtseize

43 lands:
-4 Warren Weirding, -2 Incinerator, -1 Stingscourger
+4 Relic, +3 Thoughtseize (on the play, side in the 4th for a Relic #4 I guess).

One concern I have with these boarding strategies, is that they might dilute the deck too much, thus making Ringleader less effective.
Very interested to see what you guys think of both this sideboard and the sideboard guide lines. Also, Taco if you find the time, I’d be interested to see your sideboard strats.

[jrsthethird]

You lost to TES, not ANT. Close enough.

I got into the top 8 at the 78 man vestal tourney. I'll post what I used tomorrow as well as a mini report. There was another R/b goblin deck to top 8 as well. Good stuff.

The guy used Ad Nauseum to draw like 20 cards, Burning Wished for Tendrils and killed me. Isn't that ANT? I don't know what TES is so maybe I'm wrong but if not can you explain the difference?

[DrHealex]

One concern I have with these boarding strategies, is that they might dilute the deck too much, thus making Ringleader less effective.
Very interested to see what you guys think of both this sideboard and the sideboard guide lines. Also, Taco if you find the time, I’d be interested to see your sideboard strats.

I wouldn't worry about that too much, I mean the whole point you took those "goblin" cards out was that they were completely useless in the matchup. So the way I see it is that if I hit the SBed non-goblins on a ringleader, it would be just like hitting the "useless" goblin on it.
Sure it still slightly lessens ringleaders greatness, but there really is no way around it... and ringleader is always too good to SB out.

[Zythe]

Scroll back a page or two, you'll find it.

I'm curious to know for those running Mono-red, are you really comfortable with only 22 land, 6-8 of which are non-red mana producing? I suspect you're leaning on Lackey/Vial/Instigator to power out actual threats, but still, there's a lot of RR spells running around. Have you ever found yourselves wanting to up the Mountain count and bring the total land count to 24? That's what I'm currently running and am rather skitish about dropping down to 22.

The number of lands you run depends on how many ports you're running. If 6-8 lands are non-red producing, then I'm assuming you're running ports and I would think you'd probably want to run at least 23 lands. However, for the builds that opted to drop ports, 22 lands seem fine to me.

My list is R/b packing 2 ports (along with 8 fetches) so I wouldn't ever run less than 23 lands.

[bakofried]

Would you guys suggest Mono-Red, Rb, or RG goblins for a relatively unknown meta?

[Joe_C]

Would you guys suggest Mono-Red, Rb, or RG goblins for a relatively unknown meta?

I would suggest mono red due to being really reliable. If you have no idea on the level of the decks there your board will need to cover a large amount of ground.I play in a fairly aggro oriented meta, I do run into natural order/show and tell deck sometimes, but you can race just about everything out there except a turn 1/2 Iona without holding stingsourger with a vial in play... This is my current list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
15 [P2] Mountain (1)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

For an unkown meta, depending on your playstyle you may want to make this list more aggresive in the maindeck by dropping the 2 war marshalls for 2 more piledrivers. The board pretty much covers everything except storm combo which I just take as an "autoloss" unless I can turn 3 someone who has a slow hand.

[bakofried]

Thanks for the advice. Btw, I have 2 options right now:
I can trade for 2 Wastelands.
or
I can trade for 3 Rishadan Ports.
My meta is relatively undeveloped. It's actually classified as "Vintage" but no one brings anything like that, and I like the Legacy format, so I just bring decks for that. But anyway - what should I get first? Ports or Wastes?

[Joe_C]

Thanks for the advice. Btw, I have 2 options right now:
I can trade for 2 Wastelands.
or
I can trade for 3 Rishadan Ports.
My meta is relatively undeveloped. It's actually classified as "Vintage" but no one brings anything like that, and I like the Legacy format, so I just bring decks for that. But anyway - what should I get first? Ports or Wastes?

I would say if you arent going to be able to get your hands on the full set of wastelands I would get the 3 ports. They are useful in a bunch of matchups and can slow your opponent down regardless of them running or not running non basic lands. Turn 1 lackey or vial and then playing port on turn 2 is a really strong play against just about everything out there.... Depending on what you are trading away I would feel the ports are your better choice at this time

[bakofried]

Maybe I should clarify: I already have 2 Wastelands. This would complete the set.

[Joe_C]

Maybe I should clarify: I already have 2 Wastelands. This would complete the set.

In that case, go for the wastelands. They can at least permanently remove any "problem" lands such as tablernacle or mutavault

[Arsenal]

Also, Wastelands have considerably more playability in Legacy than Rishadan Port.

[bakofried]

Ok. Does the Mono-Red version have any ways to deal with Enchantress?

[Joe_C]

Ok. Does the Mono-Red version have any ways to deal with Enchantress?

keep them off WW as much as possible.. run anarchy in the sideboard. thats the best you can do.. ports help alot in this matchup

[bakofried]

Cool. I couldn't think up a response for Moat or Solitary Confinement short of flipping the table...but most of thier scary enchantments are white, aren't they?

[JonBarber]

Cool. I couldn't think up a response for Moat or Solitary Confinement short of flipping the table...but most of thier scary enchantments are white, aren't they?

Moat can be theoretically solved with siege gang, but chances are in the time it takes to sac 10 goblins they'll have dropped a solitary confinement. If enchantress is that bad in your meta, run 4 anarchy in the board, 4 waste and 4 port mb. Maybe 3 siege gang maindeck? The other option is to splash green and play krosan grips.

[bakofried]

Remember how I said my meta wasn't exactly developed?
Most of the time I'm playing some kids RB Demon Deck with the full set of Kuro, Pitlords, some of the time I play Johnny Homebrews that do decently, and sometimes I get one of the few "scary" people. My sideboard is only geared towards fighting those scary people.
Scary Decks in my meta(by scary I mean good, decent deck that's a challenge to play against):
Burn
Old School SuiBlack
Enchantress
Painter's Grindstone
(occasionally) Reanimator
And I expect someone's going to start bringing Dream Halls.
Wait a sec.
Doesn't Anarchy hit Progenitus?
I can't believe this just clicked for me; I had been considering the black splash just for Perish...
I feel a tad moronic now.

[Nessaja]

Also, list.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Perish
X Pithing Needle, Blood Moon, Goblin Chieftain, depending on metagame.

I came almost exactly to this list, minus the sideboard. The key really is just removing the Goblin Chieftain (or one as a tutor target). Other then that 23 lands, 4 instigators 3 SGC's and no ports. Working flawlessly so far. Just the Auntie's Hovel I'm wondering about.. is that a good idea? And why is it better then a fetch?

[jrsthethird]

Hovel can't be Stifled.

[Mantis]

I came almost exactly to this list, minus the sideboard. The key really is just removing the Goblin Chieftain (or one as a tutor target). Other then that 23 lands, 4 instigators 3 SGC's and no ports. Working flawlessly so far. Just the Auntie's Hovel I'm wondering about.. is that a good idea? And why is it better then a fetch?
Thanks for getting discussion back to what matters, which is not substandard decks because Wastelands are too expensive. I think these discussions make more sense on less serious websites or maybe the casual forum but definately not the DTB forum.

Auntie's Hovel can not be Stifled unlike fetchlands and doesn't cause lifeloss. Furthermore, it doesn't shuffle the deck which makes every Ringleader after the first better. The CIPT is hardly ever relevant because you always have a Goblin in hand and if you don't chances are you aren't going to spend your mana that turn so it's perfectly fine to just let it come into play tapped. I can imagine some rare situations postboard where you have a hand full of sideboard cards but no Goblins, but I'll take that drawback.

[JonBarber]

Auntie's Hovel can not be Stifled unlike fetchlands and doesn't cause lifeloss.

But it can be wasted, unlike a fetch that can give you a basic. Not to mention, fetches thin the deck, so your ringleaders chances get slightly better. And honestly, I'd rather have them waste their stifles on my fetches as opposed to my lackeys/instigators/ringleaders.

[jrsthethird]

I run 3 Hovels and 3 Mires, and its worked out fine for me so far. I'm not as scared of Wasteland as I used to be, and I've never had a fetch Stifled so far.

The only card where Stifle really hurts us is Incinerator or Stinscourger. We can deal with a Stifled Lackey or Ringleader or Vial, it's unfortunate but they only buy a turn against Lackey/Vial, they don't answer the problem. For Ringleader, it sucks, but we're still up a card on them.

[bakofried]

Sorry if the question bugged you. It wasn't so much a budget question as much as asking which serves a more important function. I've seen a lot of discussion on which form of artifact hate to run, and I was wondering which was the most consistent, Scrapper, Tinkerer, or Vandal? Also, going to try and replace 1 of 3 Siege-Gangs with a Kiki-Jiki. Not trying to fall into the trap of cool things, but he and ringleader/siege-gang are amazing together.

[FoulQ]

At Hovel vs Fetches...
The thing is, decks packing wastelands are unlikely to be able to afford to spend their turns not making land drops and wasting our lands. However, they may have plenty of time to stifle a fetch or two. And it is extremely disastrous for goblins to get a stifle fetched the first couple turns, while getting wasted is not as bad and much less frequent (IN percentage though...because obviously a lot more decks run wasteland).

[JonBarber]

At Hovel vs Fetches...
The thing is, decks packing wastelands are unlikely to be able to afford to spend their turns not making land drops and wasting our lands. However, they may have plenty of time to stifle a fetch or two. And it is extremely disastrous for goblins to get a stifle fetched the first couple turns, while getting wasted is not as bad and much less frequent (IN percentage though...because obviously a lot more decks run wasteland).

I top 8'd at 78 man tournament on saturday. If a deck played wasteland, they wasted me. I played decks packing stifle in 4 matches. Guess how many times they stifle my fetches? Zero. They stifle your wastelands more than anything else.

[FoulQ]

Ok. That's not really the point I'm trying to make. I shouldn't have included the part about frequency.

The point I was trying to make is that a stifled fetch is much worse than a wasted hovel, not just from looking at the math behind it, but because of what goblins is trying to accomplish in the first 1-3 turns, and with your mulliganing decisions.

[JonBarber]

Ok. That's not really the point I'm trying to make. I shouldn't have included the part about frequency.

The point I was trying to make is that a stifled fetch is much worse than a wasted hovel, not just from looking at the math behind it, but because of what goblins is trying to accomplish in the first 1-3 turns, and with your mulliganing decisions.

I think it really comes down to your meta. If your expecting more decks with wastelands, play fetches. If your expecting a lot stifles, play Hovels to be safe.

[DrHealex]

I would rather get wasted than stifled. If they wasteland one of my lands, then we both lose a turn. If they stifle a fetch, they put me back a turn and are now ahead.

We run wastelands so we both lose a turn too, but it's worth it when it comes to vial and the fact that we have low drops to minimize how much we actually lose.

[bakofried]

I'm new to these forums. I've posted a bit here, but not overmuch. I'm wondering the general consensus of the boards concerning these issues, as issues change over time, as do opinions, and some ideas present in older posts may be outdated.
1. What colors, if any, do you splash in the given metas?
Combo-Heavy, e.g. Enchantress, Ad Nauseum, Elves!, Belcher, Ichorid
Control-Heavy, e.g. Landstill/Dreadstill, MUC, Thresh Variants
Aggro-Heavy, e.g. Zoo, Vial/Ravager Affinity, Aggro Elves
2. What are the star cards in those metas?
3. What's the best form of Artifact/Graveyard/Combo to run? Such as Relic/Crypt/Leyline, or Scrappers/Tinkerer/Vandal?
4. What's the value of a Matron toolbox, in the main or the side? Are singletons in either case useful enough, or do the occasional dead draws hurt the deck too much?
5. The accepted number of Instigators. I know some propose 2, some 4, but I'm unsure. I can see both sides, but I'd like to see solid arguments for both.
I'm sorry if this is too much to ask for a n00b on the boards, but they're all questions i'm wondering as I test and build my own version.
Also, what tools do we have to fight Pox-esque decks? It can be kind of a rough-MU.

[FoulQ]

I would rather get wasted than stifled. If they wasteland one of my lands, then we both lose a turn. If they stifle a fetch, they put me back a turn and are now ahead.

We run wastelands so we both lose a turn too, but it's worth it when it comes to vial and the fact that we have low drops to minimize how much we actually lose.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

[Zythe]

Honestly, goblins shouldn't be afraid of wasteland at all. We are tempo, tempo, tempo, and your opponent simply can't afford to be wasting their landrop wasting your badland/hovel. When we have a vial, lackey, and/or instigator out on the field, they aren't gona uptap and kill your land. They are going to uptap and lay down a tarmogoyf. Using wasteland is detremental in tempo to both the person being wasted and the person using the wasteland.

I'm not going to say being wastelanded will never wreck you, because it could. But because of how rare that happens and the nature of goblins, wasteland is not something we should have to build/play around.

[JonBarber]

Honestly, goblins shouldn't be afraid of wasteland at all. We are tempo, tempo, tempo, and your opponent simply can't afford to be wasting their landrop wasting your badland/hovel. When we have a vial, lackey, and/or instigator out on the field, they aren't gona uptap and kill your land. They are going to uptap and lay down a tarmogoyf. Using wasteland is detremental in tempo to both the person being wasted and the person using the wasteland.

I'm not going to say being wastelanded will never wreck you, because it could. But because of how rare that happens and the nature of goblins, wasteland is not something we should have to build/play around.

One would think, but it happens more often than you would expect.

[jrsthethird]

At Vestal it seemed like the only thing that would get Wasted was my Port, or my own tapped Wasteland.

[Wargoos]

I'm new to these forums. I've posted a bit here, but not overmuch. I'm wondering the general consensus of the boards concerning these issues, as issues change over time, as do opinions, and some ideas present in older posts may be outdated.
1. What colors, if any, do you splash in the given metas?
Combo-Heavy, e.g. Enchantress, Ad Nauseum, Elves!, Belcher, Ichorid
Control-Heavy, e.g. Landstill/Dreadstill, MUC, Thresh Variants
Aggro-Heavy, e.g. Zoo, Vial/Ravager Affinity, Aggro Elves
2. What are the star cards in those metas?
3. What's the best form of Artifact/Graveyard/Combo to run? Such as Relic/Crypt/Leyline, or Scrappers/Tinkerer/Vandal?
4. What's the value of a Matron toolbox, in the main or the side? Are singletons in either case useful enough, or do the occasional dead draws hurt the deck too much?
5. The accepted number of Instigators. I know some propose 2, some 4, but I'm unsure. I can see both sides, but I'd like to see solid arguments for both.
I'm sorry if this is too much to ask for a n00b on the boards, but they're all questions i'm wondering as I test and build my own version.
Also, what tools do we have to fight Pox-esque decks? It can be kind of a rough-MU.

I'm kinda looking for a shit to goblins myself and also would appreciate if someone could answer those questions.
I know how a goblindeck should look like a few years ago but feeld that I'm kinda at a loss nowadays with those fancy new goblin cards being printed and stuff.
Taco's list looks quite solid though and I'll eventually test it and would appreciate it even more if some very expirienced goblin player could renew the thread by writing a new primer.
Some old decks are getting a new one lately, so why shouldn't goblins get a new as well?
I hope someone (like taco for instance) could find time to make the effort.

[FoulQ]

I'm kinda looking for a shit to goblins myself and also would appreciate if someone could answer those questions.
I know how a goblindeck should look like a few years ago but feeld that I'm kinda at a loss nowadays with those fancy new goblin cards being printed and stuff.
Taco's list looks quite solid though and I'll eventually test it and would appreciate it even more if some very expirienced goblin player could renew the thread by writing a new primer.
Some old decks are getting a new one lately, so why shouldn't goblins get a new as well?
I hope someone (like taco for instance) could find time to make the effort.

I wrote a mehish primer and emailed it to the admin before Christmas, but I guess they decided not to post it. If Taco wrote a primer it would probably be better.

I know personally that if I were going to Madrid, I'd probably bring something close to Taco's list, though I'm not really a fan of his sideboard. Honestly though, I would only play this deck because I'm best with it, I don't think it is best positioned in the metagame to really dominate Madrid.

I would play 4 perish in the sideboard for Madrid as well. It helps against two of three most popular decks in the format (zoo and UGW progenitus). I do think playing black is probably optimal at this point if you are going to a larger event like Madrid.

The way I play against poxish decks is to be as hyper aggressive as possible, but in the end it will be a difficult matchup.

[(nameless one)]

Sorry if the question bugged you. It wasn't so much a budget question as much as asking which serves a more important function. I've seen a lot of discussion on which form of artifact hate to run, and I was wondering which was the most consistent, Scrapper, Tinkerer, or Vandal? Also, going to try and replace 1 of 3 Siege-Gangs with a Kiki-Jiki. Not trying to fall into the trap of cool things, but he and ringleader/siege-gang are amazing together.



I actually have started playtesting with him (along with Lightning Crafter)

Anyways, Lightning Crafter aside, Kiki-Jiki has been awesome. Sure he sucks with an empty board but why would you do that anyways. He lets you recur Matron's, Ringleader's and Siege-Gang's ETB effects.

He can also make a second copy of your finisher such as Piledriver.

Also one time, I pulled of a cute combo:

I had Instigator in play, attacked with him (with the help of Vialed Stingscouger), then drop Matron and Kiki-jiki. Searched for Crafter, Vial it in championing Matron. Then copy Crafter championing itself, Matron comes into play, full off Siege-Gang.

Then I just kept doing that for the rest of the game, which ended the following turn (I had Goblin Warchief in my hand that turn)

[Zythe]

Kiki-Jiki just seems really win-more to me. At five mana cost, you don't really want a goblin that's useless without another goblin in play. He's really really explosive, but oftentimes he either doesn't do anything because you have no goblins in play or you have enough goblins in play to be winning anyway, which is a big contrast to SGC who is always good whenever he comes down, esepcially on an empty board.

[bakofried]

He stole me a game against Reanimator with a Sphinx of the Steel Wind on the table. Doubling up Piledrivers was teh nutz. Plus, he allows for all sorts of combat tricks with Scourgers, Siege-Gangs, and the like. And I do know he sucks on an empty board, but that's why he's there as a one-of.

[JonBarber]

Kiki-jiki can do fun things, but he really is just a win more. Besides, hes really open to getting swords/pathed. I dont think its worth the slot.

[bakofried]

Eh, I'll just test until he proves to be troublesome. That's what free tournaments are for, right?

[Joe_C]

I tried Kikijiki for sometime and I found his casting cost to be just really unreasonable for the few times he actually gets to perform his tricks. Since I run port, hitting RRR can be a bit troublesome.....

[bakofried]

Anyone have any good ideas on fighting Painter's Grindstone?

[Nelis]

Anyone have any good ideas on fighting Painter's Grindstone?
How about Pithing Needle? Just combine it with being very agressive.

[bakofried]

Yeah, I've got that in the board. Unfortunately, he uses a lot of Fog effects (think TurboFog minus the Turbo plus Grindstone) It's a homebrew, and I've never played Gobs against it, but losing to anyone using Grindstone feels unclean. Not that it's a bad combo, it just feels wrong. What should I board out, in that case? Plus, here's my list. I have to get a few cards (you'll see which) but it's almost done.
Lands
Wasteland x3
Rishadan Port x2
Mountain x17
Creatures:
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker x1
Siege-Gang Commander x2
Goblin Ringleader x4
Tuktuk Scrappers x1
Goblin Matron x4
Goblin Chieftain x2
Goblin Warchief x4
Warren Instigator x3
Goblin Piledriver x4
Stingscourger x3
Gempalm Incinerator x2
Goblin Lackey x4
Spells:
Aether Vial x4
Sideboard(completely up in the air):
Anarchy x3
Pithing Needle x4
8 open slots
Also, if one is expecting Engineered Plague, would Boartusk Liege be a suitable answer as a Matron target? Or would multiples be more effective?

[DrHealex]

A 1 of- gaea's blessing (or 2) can give painters combo "some" fits. And to deal with fog effects, there are several cheap red enchantments that make it so damage can't be prevented.

[bakofried]

Do you think Blessing requires a green splash? Just in case you actually draw into both, you just cast both shuffling the other back? Or are the chances of that low enough I shouldn't worry about it?

[DrHealex]

I don't think it requires a green splash, 2 will almost always mean one in your deck. They can still get around the blessing with a well timed crypt/relic though if they are smart enough. I generally just ran 1 blessing, and pithiing needles myself and grindstone disappeared, but some say I am pretty lucky :-P

[bakofried]

Luckily, I don't think he's that intuitive(not that he's unintelligent). But with Pithing Needle, plus early beats, plus a trick up my sleeve, I should be fine. Plus, Ringleader filters it away. Perfect, huh? But he sides in Baneslayers, so bleh. I should have Lackeyed a Siege-Gang by then, so Gempalm should fix that for me.
Scratch what I said about the toolbox slots. I forgot to put in the vials. *facepalm*
*EDIT
Btw, what should I run for artifact hate in the board? I'm torn between Goblin Tinkerer and Tuktuk Scrapper. One I need to untap (or have a warchief) but the other has a one-trick effect...
Thoughts? (and how many would a good number be in either case)

[Mister Agent]

Yeah, I've got that in the board. Unfortunately, he uses a lot of Fog effects (think TurboFog minus the Turbo plus Grindstone) It's a homebrew, and I've never played Gobs against it, but losing to anyone using Grindstone feels unclean. Not that it's a bad combo, it just feels wrong. What should I board out, in that case? Plus, here's my list. I have to get a few cards (you'll see which) but it's almost done.
Lands
Wasteland x3
Rishadan Port x2
Mountain x17
Creatures:
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker x1
Siege-Gang Commander x2
Goblin Ringleader x4
Tuktuk Scrappers x1
Goblin Matron x4
Goblin Chieftain x2
Goblin Warchief x4
Warren Instigator x3
Goblin Piledriver x4
Stingscourger x3
Gempalm Incinerator x2
Goblin Lackey x4
Spells:
Aether Vial x4
Sideboard(completely up in the air):
Anarchy x3
Pithing Needle x4
8 open slots
Also, if one is expecting Engineered Plague, would Boartusk Liege be a suitable answer as a Matron target? Or would multiples be more effective?

I think you should be running 4 wastelands at least. Wasteland is just too good to not be running four. I'd also run more then two siege gangs, unlike Kiki Jiki they actually steal you games when your behind.

For your sideboard, I'd suggest pyrokinesis and graveyard hate.

[bakofried]

I know about Wastes and Port, that's just the number I have right now. I should get the 3rd Port and 4th Waste this weekend though.
Also, I know in Affinity Crypt is superior, but here, what do people prefer, crypt or Relic?
Also, already dissatisfied with that list, going to make following changes:
-1 Kiki
-1 Tuktuk Main
+1 Gempalm
+1 Siege-Gang
To fill out the sideboard, this is what I have so far:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Anarchy
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Tuktuk Scrapper/Goblin Tinkerer
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Open slots
Further advice for a tournament this Friday? Haven't brought Goblins in a while, and I want to make a good showing of it.

[Mister Agent]

I personally like running 3 ravenous traps and 3 relics. Unless, your splashing for black for creature removal then you could just run 3 crypts and 3 traps.

[kicks_422]

Is running 14 Mountain, 4 Port, and 4 Wasteland a bad call if you're also running 4 Instigators? I'd love to be able to use Port and Waste simultaneously as 4-offs, but I want to keep the 4 Instigators.

[FoulQ]

Is running 14 Mountain, 4 Port, and 4 Wasteland a bad call if you're also running 4 Instigators? I'd love to be able to use Port and Waste simultaneously as 4-offs, but I want to keep the 4 Instigators.

Yes. Going to 14 mountains pre-m10 (before both chieftain and instigator) was somewhat questionable. It is definitely not advised now.

With 4 instigators, 4 warchiefs, and 1-4 chieftains, I think 17 red sources is the bare minimum.

[kicks_422]

I thought so. Here's my list, for reference.

18 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander


Nothing too fancy. I have the 4 Goblin Chieftain in the SB for MU's where I think I'd need it, though they only very rarely get sided in. I'm not too sold on them MD as I never want to tutor for them, and the 3cc slot gets too clogged up.

[JonBarber]

I thought so. Here's my list, for reference.

18 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander


Nothing too fancy. I have the 4 Goblin Chieftain in the SB for MU's where I think I'd need it, though they only very rarely get sided in. I'm not too sold on them MD as I never want to tutor for them, and the 3cc slot gets too clogged up.

4 Stingscourger and 4 Incinerator? Seems a bit over kill (no pun intended). I would recommend cutting 2 of them for 2 main deck cheiftans.

[kicks_422]

I was thinking of doing that too, but I figured the only way for Goblins to lose was either to have a huge wall in front of them, or get blasted through by a lethal Tendrils. Those 8 MD "removal" spells help a lot for me. Also, for Turn 2 GoGoLackey!

[Nelis]

Yeah but that huge wall nowadays is Progenitus and that removal is also of no use vs Tendrils.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Does anyone run the RW build anymore? It's the only build that gets ran in my meta and it always does well. I top 8ed a 33 man tourney last night with RW as well.

I was just curious as to why i don't see it much anymore.

[kicks_422]

Yeah but that huge wall nowadays is Progenitus and that removal is also of no use vs Tendrils.

And Goblin Chieftain helps against those two cards how, exactly?

[Nelis]

I only wanted to point out that you did some strange reasoning in mentioning Stingscourger and Incinerator in regards to those two match-ups since they (obviously) are of no use there. But since you ask. Chieftain makes you win quicker!

[junkdiver]

Does anyone run the RW build anymore? It's the only build that gets ran in my meta and it always does well. I top 8ed a 33 man tourney last night with RW as well.

I was just curious as to why i don't see it much anymore.

I don't know why this thread pretty much refuses to discuss it. You can see a couple or a few pages back I asked the same thing and everyone became more interested in discussing how to fit chrome mox into the deck.... It's especially strange, considering that the only two goblins decks that made top 8 in the SCG opens in the past 6 months were white splash:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29840
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29843

I say run it. It's the decision I have made also regardless of the nay saying or lack of any kind of saying about it you will find in this thread. I personally cannot explain why it is a good color to splash as I am not a goblins legacy guru, but it must obviously help some of goblins problem matchups while not making it's better matchups all that bad. People say that splashing with fetches makes you more vulnerable to stifle, but in this case I don't think it is such a big deal because adding STP or path will likely make up for opening yourself to stifle in the merfolk match as they are very vulnerable to spot removal.

So you trade the possibility of getting sitfled with some spot removal that will also help in the zoo matchup. Merfolk and zoo are both very popular, and aggro decks seem to be really gaining ground in the legacy format, so the white splash becomes somewhat more viable because swords becomes more viable.

Also being able to play silence/orim's chant on top of bringing in Thorn of Amethyst, might make the combo matchup not as much of an auto loss. Oh and you get disenchant in the sideboard which is a very good anti-hate card for goblins as eng plague/humility/moat etc can be game over.

This is all very much theory and speculation on my part I admit as I am inexperienced with legacy goblins so I couldn't say one version over the other, but the SCG open results while not being the 100% determining factor in what version is best, are in fact important in shining light on what works in what decks. I think in light of this we should at least discuss the white splash, even if it isn't the best option in every meta it is clearly a viable option.

[jrsthethird]

I was going to run white splash until I saw how much RB goblins got out of Lorwyn block. I don't think I want to give up my Frogtosser Bannerets and Earwig Squads.

[bakofried]

What's the optimal manabase to avoid colorscrew in Mono-Red goblins?

[Ozymandias]

4 Wasteland and 17-18 Mountain gets you to RR on turn 3 on the play by far the vast majority of the time, and I doubt there's much of a change to slice 1-2 mountain for some Rishadan Ports

[FoulQ]

Does anyone run the RW build anymore? It's the only build that gets ran in my meta and it always does well. I top 8ed a 33 man tourney last night with RW as well.

I was just curious as to why i don't see it much anymore.

Plenty of people play RW, and there has been a lot of discussion about it in the past. The issue is that current metagame shifts are making the black splash much more desirable.

The thing about RW is that it isn't the best at anything, but it isn't the worst at anything. So it can be good in a meta that you don't know, but over time as you get to know your meta, MonoR or RB (and sometimes RG) prove to be better.

At least that's my take on it.

[JonBarber]

I decided to play RB goblins at my local event yesterday and went 4-0 (8-2) for a top 8 split. My matchups were Team America (2-0), Solidarity (2-0), White Stax (2-1), and Merfolk (2-1). I'm very pleased with this decks performance. I'm going to continue making plugs for Warren Instigator because he is SO good. If he connects I win the game. It forces my opponent to have to deal with him, which screws up their game. I'm running 4 waste and 2 ports and have no problem dropping him turn 2.

[jrsthethird]

I played RB at a local event yesterday as well. I went 3-2, lost to Pro-Bant because of a bad Matron tutor, and then a countered Perish. Also lost to mono-red Goblins when I got 2 horrible draws and he went Lackey-Ringleader on turn 2 both games.

The notable thing, however, was my 2-0 win against Storm combo, without Ad Nauseum (I have no clue what the name of this deck is). Game 1 she mulled to 5 and didn't play anything while I prowled 2 Earwig Squads (bad draw for her, I understand that game 1 shouldn't have gone this way), but game 2, after board I started with Duress and Chalice in my hand and stole a Ponder while dropping the Chalice for 0, then a couple turns later I drew another Chalice and played for 1. I'm pretty sold now on Chalice in the board, after hearing other people talk about it and subsequently stealing (what I perceive to be) my worst matchup.

[Nelis]

Can you post your list because you have Earwig Squad in your main and what was your sideboard?

[jrsthethird]

List from Sunday:

6 Mountain
4 Badlands
3 Auntie's Hovel
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
3 Warren Instigator
2 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftan
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Earwig Squad
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Warren Weirding
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress (couldn't borrow a 4th Seize...=( )
3 Perish

As far as the Instigator goes, It was my first time testing with him (I was burnt out from Vestal and didn't test all week even though I made changes...I figure I had nothing to lose since the tournament was free). I only saw him once, and he wasn't relevant (My opponent mulled to six, played a Trop and an Elf, I wasted the Trop and traded a Lackey with the Elf so he was a sitting duck).

[Nelis]

A specific reason you put in 2 Squads like an expected metagame? And did you board them out often and when? I'm just wondering if it's really worth running them main.

About Thoughtseize. Did you actually use them in creature matchups? Because wouldn't Duress be enough otherwise?

[Mantis]

Seize grabs Argothian Enchantress, Magus of the Tabernacle and helps in the mirror where Weirding is pretty much useless. The lifeloss is negligible against ANT, as storm is usually not a problem for ANT and Belcher so Id say Seize is almost strictly superior.

[Nelis]

Good points. I never really think of decks like Enchantre and Stax.

The life loss could be relevant vs Belcher because of Empty The Warren tokens.

But I agree that Thoughtseize is the better option.

[jrsthethird]

A specific reason you put in 2 Squads like an expected metagame? And did you board them out often and when? I'm just wondering if it's really worth running them main.

About Thoughtseize. Did you actually use them in creature matchups? Because wouldn't Duress be enough otherwise?

I didn't use them in creature matchups but I suppose it is better than Weirding in the mirror. And I figure if 2 life is making a difference I'm probably behind anyway, whether I had Duress or Seize.

I just like Earwig Squad. He's especially useful early if you know you're playing a lot of Progenitus decks (which seems very common nowadays). I haven't boarded them out since every matchup there was something good to remove (Progenitus, singleton creatures for Survival, Storm combo). The other 2 games were against U/G madness (I didn't even bother boarding for this because I'm pretty sure this deck is irrelevant anymore) and mono-R Goblins, but on second thought it might be better to run Seize instead of Squad in that matchup (steal a Ringleader or Matron and I gain pseudo-card advantage on them).

He's also nice because he trades with Goyf. There are a couple games I've won because he's a 5- or 6-power beater that can get there when a 2- or 3- guy just can't.

[FoulQ]

I just like Earwig Squad. He's especially useful early if you know you're playing a lot of Progenitus decks (which seems very common nowadays). I haven't boarded them out since every matchup there was something good to remove (Progenitus, singleton creatures for Survival, Storm combo). The other 2 games were against U/G madness (I didn't even bother boarding for this because I'm pretty sure this deck is irrelevant anymore) and mono-R Goblins, but on second thought it might be better to run Seize instead of Squad in that matchup (steal a Ringleader or Matron and I gain pseudo-card advantage on them).

He's also nice because he trades with Goyf. There are a couple games I've won because he's a 5- or 6-power beater that can get there when a 2- or 3- guy just can't.

I'm sadly starting to agree that earwig squad is playable. I've always hated that card, and I still think it's playability is marginal because of its awkward casting cost, but it definitely deserves a second look, if not MD then at least SB. It does a decent job versus a lot of decks and a great job against a few.

I've also been casually testing thoughtseize and yeah, it has been the shit for me as well.

The rise of progenitus, iona, and combo makes the deck need black pretty badly. However, I don't know if such a shift is really better than just switching decks altogether.

[FoxBlade]

So I have a question...

I'm trying to build a goblin deck with a black splash and I wonder what the opinion is for using cover of darkness?

I was thinking that + warren instigator or piledriver is pretty nasty with that. I dunno, sounds pretty nasty in theory, so I'm going to playtest it - but yeah what do you all think of it?

[JonBarber]

So I have a question...

I'm trying to build a goblin deck with a black splash and I wonder what the opinion is for using cover of darkness?

I was thinking that + warren instigator or piledriver is pretty nasty with that. I dunno, sounds pretty nasty in theory, so I'm going to playtest it - but yeah what do you all think of it?

First immediate issue is that its not a goblin. Plus, everyone after the first becomes a dead card. Every slot used for it is an important piece of the deck being removed. I think in theory its nice, but its not really worth the slot. The idea of making lackeys/instigators/piledrivers unblockable has been raised before (soaring sea cliffs), but it didn't pan out for a reason. Lackey's true strength is the idea of him. He forces your opponent to react to him, slowing down their game plan. This allows you to get the immediate upper hand. Not mention, the deck runs plenty of turn 2 removal that also have other good later game uses.

[jrsthethird]

First immediate issue is that its not a goblin. Plus, everyone after the first becomes a dead card. Every slot used for it is an important piece of the deck being removed. I think in theory its nice, but its not really worth the slot. The idea of making lackeys/instigators/piledrivers unblockable has been raised before (soaring sea cliffs), but it didn't pan out for a reason. Lackey's true strength is the idea of him. He forces your opponent to react to him, slowing down their game plan. This allows you to get the immediate upper hand. Not mention, the deck runs plenty of turn 2 removal that also have other good later game uses.

If Goblin Kites were a Tribal Enchantment - Goblin...oh the possibilities!!

[bakofried]

Are Nameless Inversion or Wort, Boggart Auntie ever used in splash versions?

[jrsthethird]

I don't think Nameless Inversion cuts the mustard to be used in legacy, but I run a singleton Wort in my build. She's helpful when she hits.

Speaking of changelings, there are 2 I've considered: Changeling Berserker and Blades of Velis Vel. Blades has some nice corner applications, but I don't think it's good enough to make the 75 (although running Instigator helps this case immensely).

Changeling Berserker seems really good to me. 5/3 body, like Earwig Squad, can cause problems (or at least trade with Goyf), but the fact that you can reuse a Matron, Ringleader, War Marshal, Stingscourger, or SGC ETB trigger makes it really good in my book. I think it has an edge over the similar Boggart Mob and Lightning Crafter with the natural haste, so it poses a unique game problem for your opponent: do I block him and kill him, giving my opponent more card advantage, or do I take 5 to the face every turn. Most guys your opponent has a chance to remove by the time they can swing, but he affects the board immediately. I'm just not convinced if it's really necessary because it seems like a win-more (not as much as the other two because of his immediate effect).

[arebennian]

Taco has mentioned playing 'Cover of Darkness' in the past (from memory).
There is discussion on this thread. Shame I can't use the search function with any effect any more.

BTW, Anyone know what is up with that? The search only seems to find recent posts.

Yes it isn't a goblin, but it is turn 2 removal in a sense and it remains on the board. The con's have already been noted (I.E. Non Goblin + Tight decklist)

[JonBarber]

Taco has mentioned playing 'Cover of Darkness' in the past (from memory).
There is discussion on this thread. Shame I can't use the search function with any effect any more.

BTW, Anyone know what is up with that? The search only seems to find recent posts.

Yes it isn't a goblin, but it is turn 2 removal in a sense and it remains on the board. The con's have already been noted (I.E. Non Goblin + Tight decklist)

I'll try and fit in my list and see how it goes.

[ScatmanX]

I don't think Nameless Inversion cuts the mustard to be used in legacy, but I run a singleton Wort in my build. She's helpful when she hits.

Speaking of changelings, there are 2 I've considered: Changeling Berserker and Blades of Velis Vel. Blades has some nice corner applications, but I don't think it's good enough to make the 75 (although running Instigator helps this case immensely).

Changeling Berserker seems really good to me. 5/3 body, like Earwig Squad, can cause problems (or at least trade with Goyf), but the fact that you can reuse a Matron, Ringleader, War Marshal, Stingscourger, or SGC ETB trigger makes it really good in my book. I think it has an edge over the similar Boggart Mob and Lightning Crafter with the natural haste, so it poses a unique game problem for your opponent: do I block him and kill him, giving my opponent more card advantage, or do I take 5 to the face every turn. Most guys your opponent has a chance to remove by the time they can swing, but he affects the board immediately. I'm just not convinced if it's really necessary because it seems like a win-more (not as much as the other two because of his immediate effect).

I have tryed both. Nameless inversion don't make the cut.
Changeling Berserker, in MonoRed, is surely an option. I tested as a 2 of, and he was really fun to play with. Give it a try.
The problem is that I do think that Craft has the upper hand betweeen the 2...

[arebennian]

I'll try and fit in my list and see how it goes.

Just watch when you play it, as it can really screw with your tempo if you lay it at the wrong time.

[JonBarber]

Just watch when you play it, as it can really screw with your tempo if you lay it at the wrong time.

I appreciate that =P

[jrsthethird]

Changeling Berserker, in MonoRed, is surely an option. I tested as a 2 of, and he was really fun to play with. Give it a try.
The problem is that I do think that Craft has the upper hand betweeen the 2...

I'm only looking at RB for my options, and I think Berserker is better than Crafter in my build since I don't run Warchief. In mono-R you have 4 Warchief + 2 or so Chieftains, so you should have a haste effect active by the time you play Lightning Crafter, who has a more significant board presence since he can hit anything when he comes in with haste. In my BR, I run Frogtossers instead of Warchiefs (I love it, it really frees up the 3cc spot), so I can only give Crafter haste with 2 cards in my deck, making him a lot slower. So in RB, Berserker is better. I will try him out though.

[ScatmanX]

I'm only looking at RB for my options, and I think Berserker is better than Crafter in my build since I don't run Warchief. In mono-R you have 4 Warchief + 2 or so Chieftains, so you should have a haste effect active by the time you play Lightning Crafter, who has a more significant board presence since he can hit anything when he comes in with haste. In my BR, I run Frogtossers instead of Warchiefs (I love it, it really frees up the 3cc spot), so I can only give Crafter haste with 2 cards in my deck, making him a lot slower. So in RB, Berserker is better. I will try him out though.

My testings were pre-M10, so no Chieftains. You have a good point there. But you do run Chieftains in Rb right?

[jrsthethird]

2 Chieftans. My latest decklist is on the last page.

[JonBarber]

I have tryed both. Nameless inversion don't make the cut.
Changeling Berserker, in MonoRed, is surely an option. I tested as a 2 of, and he was really fun to play with. Give it a try.
The problem is that I do think that Craft has the upper hand betweeen the 2...

I really don't think either of these should be played. They are expensive, and don't have nearly the same impact that high drops such as ringleader and siege-gang do. We have piledrivers to do the serious damage, a 5/3 isn't all that helpful.

[JonBarber]

I have tryed both. Nameless inversion don't make the cut.
Changeling Berserker, in MonoRed, is surely an option. I tested as a 2 of, and he was really fun to play with. Give it a try.
The problem is that I do think that Craft has the upper hand betweeen the 2...

I really don't think either of these should be played. They are expensive, and don't have nearly the same impact that high drops such as ringleader and siege-gang do. We have piledrivers to do the serious damage, a 5/3 isn't all that helpful.

[daPaule]

Played Rb Goblins at a local tournament this weekend placing 8th. Downside: we were only 11 people :( Thus 2-2
First loss came into first round vs SI variant. After losing the dice roll, all dicerolls by the way, had to mull. Managed to beat him to 9, he was forced to put Tendrils on top with brainstorm so it was basically just 5 life he had with ad nauseam, still sufficent.
2nd game he punted me in his first round after taking Mindbreak Trap with Therapy.

Second loss came in vs a friend with zoo (no library, but Guides and Lynx).
First Game was close, second was took home by my army.
3rd he had first turn Mancer on board. Followed by my Lackey, his Nacatl wasn't very impressed but he burned the Lackey anyway. I didn't manage to get a lonely Goblin on the board and having 2 mana up to be able to Gempalm the Mancer.

For reference here is my list:

Main:
6 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Taiga
4 AEther Vial
2 Warren Weirding
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin King
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap

That's also leading to a question of mine.
You see i only splashed green for the Krosan Grips thus having an out to Engineered Plague. And i also play 4 lord effects, still the need of the Grips.
How can you run lists with no out to Plague or is just not used in your meta ?

[BKclassic]

That's also leading to a question of mine.
You see i only splashed green for the Krosan Grips thus having an out to Engineered Plague. And i also play 4 lord effects, still the need of the Grips.
How can you run lists with no out to Plague or is just not used in your meta ?

Just play Goblin Chieftain, and Engineered Plague is not being played as much. Plague didn't seem like it was a problem in your tournament, I would just play Chieftains or use those SB slots for something else.

[daPaule]

Just play Goblin Chieftain, and Engineered Plague is not being played as much. Plague didn't seem like it was a problem in your tournament, I would just play Chieftains or use those SB slots for something else.

The Reason behind the lonely King is that at the GP trials we had alot of Dreadstills and Zoos running around, so i thought it would be good if all my creatures were unblockable :wink: I just realised that they we're all gone to madrid when i arrived at the shop so removing Tinkerer from the main to add a 2nd Earwig and not removing the King also.
But as i didn't draw one of them or a matron in the only game where it mattered i guess i will just cut one again.

And the Krosans will become REBs or Thoughtseize.

[JonBarber]

Played Rb Goblins at a local tournament this weekend placing 8th. Downside: we were only 11 people :( Thus 2-2
First loss came into first round vs SI variant. After losing the dice roll, all dicerolls by the way, had to mull. Managed to beat him to 9, he was forced to put Tendrils on top with brainstorm so it was basically just 5 life he had with ad nauseam, still sufficent.
2nd game he punted me in his first round after taking Mindbreak Trap with Therapy.

Second loss came in vs a friend with zoo (no library, but Guides and Lynx).
First Game was close, second was took home by my army.
3rd he had first turn Mancer on board. Followed by my Lackey, his Nacatl wasn't very impressed but he burned the Lackey anyway. I didn't manage to get a lonely Goblin on the board and having 2 mana up to be able to Gempalm the Mancer.

For reference here is my list:

Main:
6 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Taiga
4 AEther Vial
2 Warren Weirding
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin King
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap

That's also leading to a question of mine.
You see i only splashed green for the Krosan Grips thus having an out to Engineered Plague. And i also play 4 lord effects, still the need of the Grips.
How can you run lists with no out to Plague or is just not used in your meta ?

Why no instigator?

[daPaule]

Why no instigator?

I don't really like him, yet. I have played a lot of games were even first turn Lackey was stopped and Instigator isn't much better regarding Zoo's creatures.
But I will give him a try next time removing something.

Also War Marshall was mediocre but that heavily depended on the decks i ran into. In other testings he was great, but not this time.

The problem I have is that my meta is pretty healthy, or random if you like it this way. We're usually somewhere between 30 or 40 and you can face everything.

[bakofried]

Ha. The only person who even knows they exist in my meta is my friend, and he refuses to buy cards unless they're amazing in his burn deck.
But a thing to consider: most people shit their pants at the thought of letting Insigator through.

[(nameless one)]

Also War Marshall was mediocre but that heavily depended on the decks i ran into. In other testings he was great, but not this time.



Which M/Us does War Marshall shine and which ones are the not so great ones?

[daPaule]

From my point of view and limited experience he's great as soon as you have a chieftain ingame. Then he's 2 for 1 and you're not losing tempo when he gets sacrificed in your upkeep. You can thumbblock a goyf 3 times with him, in case you have the mana or opponent is attacking directly/vialed Marshal in.
He would have allowed me to get an out in the Zoo match just because he brings 2 goblins in play where others just don't. Problem was opponent had removal/burn for the 2nd Goblin too, so still no Gempalm. Also he's ok vs Smokestack, Small Pox, Spotremoval.
And the obvious: 3 Siege-Gang shots, when i did this the board was already full of goblins so it didn't matter :wink:

He simply isn't that great when u don't have a chieftain.

He competes for his slot with Gempalm and Scourger i think.
All three cost 2 mana, noone pays echo, regarding their use (so cycle for Incinerator):
Gempalm gets rid of one attacker/blocker if the board is filled with enough goblins.
Marshall brings 2 attackers or 2(/3) blockers, which just aren't that impressive when there's no lord in play.
Scourger removes one attacker or removes one blocker and goes in the fight.

So he's better on the defense than scourger and worse on the offense regarding plain numbers, on the other hand improving the defense in a goblin deck may already be a waste of slots and he does nothing vs a resolved dreadnought.

In my case i usually liked him cause he's 'immune' to spot removal, simply as that.

[BKclassic]

Which M/Us does War Marshall shine and which ones are the not so great ones?

Generally anything with removal or creatures, War Marshall is good against. So not combo. Though it was recently instrumental in my defeat of a Belcher deck by helping in the overcoming of a swarm of Goblin tokens from Empty The Warrens.


Anyway, I am going to take this opportunity to plug Piledriverless and Warchiefless Goblins again, as I have updated the decklist a bit and have a much better understanding of it.

16 Mountain
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin War Marshall
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger

4 Aether Vial

I like this version better than regular goblins because I think it has a much better ‘Plan B’. ‘Plan A’ is to connect with Lackey or Instigator and just win. Plan B is to try and amass an army of goblins to overcome the opponents to defenses in the mid game. Basically, you just sit around and amass Goblins until you draw Goblin Chieftain, and then you win in one or two attacks. A traditional Goblins deck has a ‘Plan B’ of amassing a bunch of goblins and attacking, but typically doesn’t have the focus on token generation, doesn’t run the maximum of Goblins Chieftains, and doesn’t have the best tools to let you live long enough to make this happen (Stingcourger and Goblin War Marhall can individually buy multiple turns against Aggro decks, while Warren Weirding buys only one, for example). Basically, I find regular Goblins to have a wishy washy 'Plan B". You need to ride the explosiveness of Warchief and Piledriver while dodging removal and blockers. The big thing is that one blocker kills Piledriver, and then you are left with a couple 2/2s and 1/1s. My 'Plan B' is to swing with a hoard of 2/2s and 3/3s, and, when some of them die, to untap and attack with more.

The shortcoming of my version of the deck the lack of explosiveness afforded by Piledriver and Warchief, where you can win sometimes by playing Warchief and than play a bunch of goblins for cheap and get there with Piledriver. My version of the deck is designed to clog up the ground with Stingscourger and War Marshall enough so that you don’t need this sort of midgame explosiveness to win games,you just need to amass Goblins untill you can stick a Goblin Chieftain.

Manabase- It started out as 18 Mountains and 4 Wastelands, but I changed it to 4 Mutavault, because that card is excellent in this deck. It powers up your Incinerators for 1 and is a solid extra man when it comes time finish your opponent off. However, I recently switched it to a 3-3 split of Vautls and Wastelands and cut some mountains, because of problem cards, like other Mutavaults, Mishra’s Factory, Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith and Academy Ruins. Since the deck does not run Warchief to make your spells cheaper, you are generally should be frugal with these.

8 Lackeys- These are great. Warren Instigator is something your opponents have to answer, and them wasting removal on it is typically fine, because it will clear the way for Goblin Chieftain later. Also, in a traditional Goblins deck, late game lackey’s often suck, but here the extra bodies are always useful for the turn when you drop Chieftain and win.

War Marshall, Incinerator and Stingscourger- All of these cards are great in this deck. War Marshall is AWESOME in this deck, because it clogs the board in the early game, and the tokens will when you the game when the become 2/2s. Basically a mini Siege-Gang. The card makes Incinerator much better. Incinerating a Goyf is not out of the question for this deck. Stingscourger is awesome, great for helping your Lackeys get through, and buying time against other agro decks and it bounces your own War Marshalls and Siege-Gangs to keep the goblin tokens coming.

On the whole, Warchief and Piledriver would be good cards in my deck, but there just isn't really room for them.

[JonBarber]

Generally anything with removal or creatures, War Marshall is good against. So not combo. Though it was recently instrumental in my defeat of a Belcher deck by helping in the overcoming of a swarm of Goblin tokens from Empty The Warrens.


Anyway, I am going to take this opportunity to plug Piledriverless and Warchiefless Goblins again, as I have updated the decklist a bit and have a much better understanding of it.

16 Mountain
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin War Marshall
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger

4 Aether Vial

I like this version better than regular goblins because I think it has a much better ‘Plan B’. ‘Plan A’ is to connect with Lackey or Instigator and just win. Plan B is to try and amass an army of goblins to overcome the opponents to defenses in the mid game. Basically, you just sit around and amass Goblins until you draw Goblin Chieftain, and then you win in one or two attacks. A traditional Goblins deck has a ‘Plan B’ of amassing a bunch of goblins and attacking, but typically doesn’t have the focus on token generation, doesn’t run the maximum of Goblins Chieftains, and doesn’t have the best tools to let you live long enough to make this happen (Stingcourger and Goblin War Marhall can individually buy multiple turns against Aggro decks, while Warren Weirding buys only one, for example).

The shortcoming of my version of the deck the lack of explosiveness afforded by Piledriver and Warchief, where you can win sometimes by playing Warchief and than play a bunch of goblins for cheap and get there with Piledriver. My version of the deck is designed to clog up the ground with Stingscourger and War Marshall enough so that you don’t need this sort of midgame explosiveness to win games,you just need to amass Goblins untill you can stick a Goblin Chieftain.

Manabase- It started out as 18 Mountains and 4 Wastelands, but I changed it to Mutavault, because that card is excellent in this deck. It powers up your Incinerators for 1 and is a solid extra man when it comes time finish your opponent off. However, I recently switched it to a 3-3 split of Vautls and Wastelands and cut some mountains, because of problem cards, like other Mutavaults, Mishra’s Factory and Academy Ruins. Since the deck does not run Warchief to make your spells cheaper, you are generally should be frugal with these.

8 Lackeys- These are great. Warren Instigator is something your opponents have to answer, and them wasting removal on it is typically fine, because it will clear the way for Goblin Chieftain later. Also, in a traditional Goblins deck, late game lackey’s often suck, but here the extra bodies are always useful for the turn when you drop Chieftain and win.

War Marshall, Incinerator and Stingscourger- All of these cards are great in this deck. War Marshall is AWESOME in this deck, because it clogs the board in the early game, and the tokens will when you the game when the become 2/2s. Basically a mini Siege-Gang. The card makes Incinerator much better. Incinerating a Goyf is not out of the question for this deck. Stingscourger is awesome, great for helping your Lackeys get through, and buying time against other agro decks and it bounces your own War Marshalls and Siege-Gangs to keep the goblin tokens coming.

Are you serious? Piledriver is probably one of the best cards in the deck. Your playing the deck completely wrong with this strategy. Goblins is good because its fast and keeps pumping creatures out. Its fast because piledriver deals 10+ by turn 3 or 4. It keeps pumping creatures out by making them cheaper with warchief. Goblins don't "wait". Waiting gives your opponent time to do what they need to do. There is no reasons goblins should be slowed played. Slowplaying allows for humility, ghostly prison, Iona, Progenitus, etc. I don't see how this version is better than the normal mono red or r/b versions of the deck.

[(nameless one)]

Are you serious? Piledriver is probably one of the best cards in the deck. Your playing the deck completely wrong with this strategy. Goblins is good because its fast and keeps pumping creatures out. Its fast because piledriver deals 10+ by turn 3 or 4. It keeps pumping creatures out by making them cheaper with warchief. Goblins don't "wait". Waiting gives your opponent time to do what they need to do. There is no reasons goblins should be slowed played. Slowplaying allows for humility, ghostly prison, Iona, Progenitus, etc. I don't see how this version is better than the normal mono red or r/b versions of the deck.


Maybe the previous post is a trollpost?

Anyways...

Recently, I have been seeing a lot of builds with no Rishadan Ports because of Warren Instigator.

If I am planning to run both Ports and Instigators, what are the ideal ratio between them? 3 Ports and 3 Instigators (on 22-23 lands)?

[BKclassic]

I guess I should explain the theory behind my deck, so here it is:

Think critically about Piledriver versus Lackeys for a second.

Piledriver
Wins games when it connects
Needs multiple other Goblins to be good
Requires you to overcommit

Lackeys
Wins games when it connects
Doesn't require you to overcommit
Just needs another Goblin in hand to be good

Clearly Lackey effects are the true hero of Goblins early game. Hence I run 8 of them, and are backed up with Stingscourger and as many Seige-Gangs as I could fit.


Next, think about how goblins wins games, either in the early game rush, or by overwhelming your opponent with Matron/Ringleader/Siege-Gang. Goblin Piledriver plays a wishy-washy role between the two, sort of at helping both ends, but primarily being useful somewhere in the middle, after the your opponent has expent resources dealing with your early rush but before better cards like Ringleader and Siege-Gang come along. What I have done here is instead focus on cards that play a clear role in helping to bridge the gap between the two. The primary motivation for this is that it is your best chance against decks with efficient creatures and cheap removal, namely Zoo and Tempo Thresh.

This does make the deck a tad slower, but it helps the deck be well positioned to be overwhelming in the mid-to-late game (we are talking turns 4-6, typically).


Piledriver is probably one of the best cards in the deck. Your playing the deck completely wrong with this strategy. Goblins is good because its fast and keeps pumping creatures out. Its fast because piledriver deals 10+ by turn 3 or 4.

This is a terrible example to prove the value of Piledriver. To connect for 10+ by turn 3 or 4, you need to either connect with Goblin Lackey or your opponent has nothing for the first 4 turns of the game.


It keeps pumping creatures out by making them cheaper with warchief. Goblins don't "wait". Waiting gives your opponent time to do what they need to do. There is no reasons goblins should be slowed played. Slowplaying allows for humility, ghostly prison, Iona, Progenitus, etc. I don't see how this version is better than the normal mono red or r/b versions of the deck.

This deck is better poised to handle the problems you mention. Progenitus is easily overwhelmed if they don't get it until turn 4 or so. This build handles humility better than most due to the extra token generation from War Marshall, which is also better than most goblins against Wrath and other mass removal. Ghostly Prison comes down turn 3 at the latest, Piledriver is not going to save unless your opponent does nothing else and is especially bad after Prison is down. Again, War Marshall tokens will be useful when it comes time to start flinging htem with Siege-Gang.

On the whole, by cutting Piledriver, you lose a turn of your Goldfish, and gain much more opportunity for a better mid game.

[JonBarber]

I guess I should explain the theory behind my deck, so here it is:

Think critically about Piledriver versus Lackeys for a second.

Piledriver
Wins games when it connects
Needs multiple other Goblins to be good
Requires you to overcommit

Lackeys
Wins games when it connects
Doesn't require you to overcommit
Just needs another Goblin in hand to be good

Clearly Lackey effects are the true hero of Goblins early game. Hence I run 8 of them, and are backed up with Stingscourger and as many Seige-Gangs as I could fit.


Next, think about how goblins wins games, either in the early game rush, or by overwhelming your opponent with Matron/Ringleader/Siege-Gang. Goblin Piledriver plays a wishy-washy role between the two, sort of at helping both ends, but primarily being useful somewhere in the middle, after the your opponent has expent resources dealing with your early rush but before better cards like Ringleader and Siege-Gang come along. What I have done here is instead focus on cards that play a clear role in helping to bridge the gap between the two. The primary motivation for this is that it is your best chance against decks with efficient creatures and cheap removal, namely Zoo and Tempo Thresh.

This does make the deck a tad slower, but it helps the deck be well positioned to be overwhelming in the mid-to-late game (we are talking turns 4-6, typically).



This is a terrible example to prove the value of Piledriver. To connect for 10+ by turn 3 or 4, you need to either connect with Goblin Lackey or your opponent has nothing for the first 4 turns of the game.



This deck is better poised to handle the problems you mention. Progenitus is easily overwhelmed if they don't get it until turn 4 or so. This deck handles humility better than most do the extra token generation from War Marshall, which is also better than most goblins against Wrath and other mass removal. Ghostly Prison comes down turn 3 at the latest, Piledriver is not going to save unless your opponent does nothing else and is especially bad after Prison is down. Again, War Marshall tokens will be useful when it comes time to start flinging htem with Siege-Gang.

On the whole, by cutting Piledriver, you lose a turn of your Goldfish, and gain much more opportunity for a better mid game.

Why are you comparing lackey to piledriver? Theres no doubt as to whether or not lackey is played. I also run they 8 lackey effects but piledriver as well. You seem to really be comparing Mogg Warmarshall to Piledriver, and I think 9 times out of 10 piledriver is a better two drop. Not to mention, piledriver is what gives us the upperhand against merfolk. I mean your welcome to play any list you want, but piledriver has been run since he came out, and just about every list that tops plays him. But maybe you're list will change things.

[BKclassic]

Why are you comparing lackey to piledriver? Theres no doubt as to whether or not lackey is played. I also run they 8 lackey effects but piledriver as well. You seem to really be comparing Mogg Warmarshall to Piledriver, and I think 9 times out of 10 piledriver is a better two drop

Lackeys are good at what they do, Piledriver isn't. Since we now have 8 Lackeys, Piledriver isn't necessary to get those early combo wins. War Marshall gets us to where our mid to late game cards are good, and make the deck much stronger as a whole.


Not to mention, piledriver is what gives us the upperhand against merfolk.

Merfolk is harder, but still hard to lose.


I mean your welcome to play any list you want, but piledriver has been run since he came out, and just about every list that tops plays him. But maybe you're list will change things.

I think the reality of Piledriver is that it requires you to overcommit to the board and can be a win more, but it wins many more games than it loses. As more efficient creatures like Tarmogoyf and Wild Nacat are printed, Goblins is going to have to rely on tribal synergy to win games, as opposed to superior creatures. It may not yet be the time to cut Piledriver to make room for full sets of Mogg War Marshall and Goblin Chieftain, but it is bound to happen as the power level of regular creatures is pushed.

[jrsthethird]

Lackeys are good at what they do, Piledriver isn't. Since we now have 8 Lackeys, Piledriver isn't necessary to get those early combo wins. War Marshall gets us to where our mid to late game cards are good, and make the deck much stronger as a whole.

Attacking for 10 on turn 3 is what gets you a game 1 win against combo. Other than that, we're screwed, unless you can pull a turn 2 or 3 Earwig Squad in RB goblins.

War Marshal is a good creature, he buys you a lot of time against aggro decks with better creatures than ours and gets us into the late game where we can beat aggro with card advantage. He sucks in any other matchup besides aggro because he's just too slow. Piledriver can swing games, and at the very least he's the only guy we have that can trade with a Goyf (a big Driver threat will make them keep a Goyf back to block if they can't draw removal). He also lets us race Progenitus better than a bunch of crappy tokens, and in the event that Progenitus has to be left behind to block, we can still get our house through. He also blocks War Monk all day, which is pretty crucial for us.


I think the reality of Piledriver is that it requires you to overcommit to the board and can be a win more, but it wins many more games than it loses. As more efficient creatures like Tarmogoyf and Wild Nacat are printed, Goblins is going to have to rely on tribal synergy to win games, as opposed to superior creatures. It may not yet be the time to cut Piledriver to make room for full sets of Mogg War Marshall and Goblin Chieftain, but it is bound to happen as the power level of regular creatures is pushed.

Also, as far as 'overcommiting' goes, have you realized that every non-land card in our deck is either a creature or Aether Vial (or Weirding in RB)? This means that just under 60% of our deck is creatures, so are you going to hold guys in your hand once you hit 2 or 3 on board? Every guy either presents an individual must-answer (Lackey/Warchief effects) or a completely relevant ETB ability (Scourger, Matron, Ringleader), or both (Siege-Gang). Also, if you don't have a lot of guys out, Incinerator is useless against the big threats of the format (Goyf, Tombstalker, etc.). If they play a sweeper, we can refill the board in 2 turns, max. This is not an issue.

[Nelis]

I like this version better than regular goblins because I think it has a much better ‘Plan B’. ‘Plan A’ is to connect with Lackey or Instigator and just win. Plan B is to try and amass an army of goblins to overcome the opponents to defenses in the mid game. Basically, you just sit around and amass Goblins until you draw Goblin Chieftain, and then you win in one or two attacks. A traditional Goblins deck has a ‘Plan B’ of amassing a bunch of goblins and attacking, but typically doesn’t have the focus on token generation, doesn’t run the maximum of Goblins Chieftains, and doesn’t have the best tools to let you live long enough to make this happen (Stingcourger and Goblin War Marhall can individually buy multiple turns against Aggro decks, while Warren Weirding buys only one, for example). Basically, I find regular Goblins to have a wishy washy 'Plan B". You need to ride the explosiveness of Warchief and Piledriver while dodging removal and blockers. The big thing is that one blocker kills Piledriver, and then you are left with a couple 2/2s and 1/1s. My 'Plan B' is to swing with a hoard of 2/2s and 3/3s, and, when some of them die, to untap and attack with more.

The shortcoming of my version of the deck the lack of explosiveness afforded by Piledriver and Warchief, where you can win sometimes by playing Warchief and than play a bunch of goblins for cheap and get there with Piledriver. My version of the deck is designed to clog up the ground with Stingscourger and War Marshall enough so that you don’t need this sort of midgame explosiveness to win games,you just need to amass Goblins untill you can stick a Goblin Chieftain.

On the whole, Warchief and Piledriver would be good cards in my deck, but there just isn't really room for them.



I think the reality of Piledriver is that it requires you to overcommit to the board and can be a win more, but it wins many more games than it loses. As more efficient creatures like Tarmogoyf and Wild Nacat are printed, Goblins is going to have to rely on tribal synergy to win games, as opposed to superior creatures. It may not yet be the time to cut Piledriver to make room for full sets of Mogg War Marshall and Goblin Chieftain, but it is bound to happen as the power level of regular creatures is pushed.

What's the difference?

[(nameless one)]

Unfortunately, its the tribal synergy between goblins that makes this deck competitive.

You know what, if does not want to run Piledrivers, dont force him.

On the other hand, there was a thread here on how mono-red goblins get around Plagues. I just run Boartusk Lieges. I guess they're also alright against Zoo as they have a big behind.

I haven't really tried Kings against Zoo.

[FoulQ]

What's the difference?

This is what I'm wondering too.

Piledriver has never been that great as a 11/2 or 9/2 or whatever. Piledriver shines around the 5/2 stage. His role in the deck is to speed up your win to prevent your opponents from being able to find answers to your questions.

Although we can't play off MWM like he is nothing. It is still viable in some builds, specifically builds like BKclassic that focus on hordes, but that doesn't really fit my playstyle. I'm a 5/2 piledriver kind of guy.

[FoxBlade]

BKclassic I have to disagree with some of your points:




Piledriver
Wins games when it connects
Needs multiple other Goblins to be good
Requires you to overcommit


When you say overcommit I assume that you meant attacking with all of your goblins to get pile driver to do the most damage possible. I have to disagree with you here I don't think I've ever lost a game because I overcommited to an attack.

Usually a glance at the board and I know how much I should commit to the attack. I also don't need always need pile driver to do 10+ damage, sometimes doing 3-5 damage is fine.



This is a terrible example to prove the value of Piledriver. To connect for 10+ by turn 3 or 4, you need to either connect with Goblin Lackey or your opponent has nothing for the first 4 turns of the game.


Well I think he's got great value, if you have multipul goblins on the board along with pile driver, your opponent will have to respond to him or block him, which can means sometimes they have to choose between taking a big hit from pile driver or letting instigator or lackey hit. If you already have one resolved and it gets mid-late game he becomes even more valuable.

If your opponent is playing blue it also provides a nice bait card (rather have them counter him than some of my other stuff) and if he sticks then he's really good.



This deck is better poised to handle the problems you mention. Progenitus is easily overwhelmed if they don't get it until turn 4 or so. This build handles humility better than most due to the extra token generation from War Marshall, which is also better than most goblins against Wrath and other mass removal. Ghostly Prison comes down turn 3 at the latest, Piledriver is not going to save unless your opponent does nothing else and is especially bad after Prison is down. Again, War Marshall tokens will be useful when it comes time to start flinging htem with Siege-Gang.

Yeah, but if they resolve humility on you, you've pretty much lost and marshall isn't going to help you too much (if at all) anyway.

Marshall isn't really that helpful after a mass removal, you get a 1/1 token - big whoop. Chances are they have something better in their hand to play after WoG as opposed to your 1/1 goblin token.

If Ghostly Prison hits the board, a marshall is about as worthless as piledriver.

About the only thing I like about marshall is he helps make gempalm more beefy.

Also by the time I need more tokens to play SGC's ability, chances are I pretty much have the won the game already.



On the whole, by cutting Piledriver, you lose a turn of your Goldfish, and gain much more opportunity for a better mid game.

I dunno - I suppose this depends on the build. I know that in my build if I cut piledriver and replaced them with marshall - my deck would lose a pretty big punch in exchange for two 1/1 and a hypothetical 1/1 if I lose marshall, if for some odd reason I decided to pay the echo cost.

By keeping piledriver - I have a potential threat that my opponent will most likely have to respond to and he also can win games.

IMO, Marshall just doesn't make the cut cause he's just not that good.

[bakofried]

Aren't we kept from over-committing anyway, just through our CA and hasty/haste-giving dudes? I mean, we've got Siege-Gang (I dropped Kiki for the third and haven't looked back) Ringleader, and Instigator and Lackey to refill the board. Over-committing is rarely a problem, at least in my MU's.
On another note, I'm pondering my sideboard, and wondering if I should run
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
or
4 Pyrokinesis
Thoughts?

[Nelis]

In my experience the only situation I will over commit is to deal the final blow to my opponent otherwise it's not necessary.

I personally never put Sharpshooter in because there's hardly a deck it's good against nowadays. Pyrokinesis is much more useful against decks with creatures bigger than 1/1 which are most.


This is what I'm wondering too.

Piledriver has never been that great as a 11/2 or 9/2 or whatever. Piledriver shines around the 5/2 stage. His role in the deck is to speed up your win to prevent your opponents from being able to find answers to your questions.



Yeah, and to tutor up with matron for the final blow.

[FoulQ]

Aren't we kept from over-committing anyway, just through our CA and hasty/haste-giving dudes? I mean, we've got Siege-Gang (I dropped Kiki for the third and haven't looked back) Ringleader, and Instigator and Lackey to refill the board. Over-committing is rarely a problem, at least in my MU's.
On another note, I'm pondering my sideboard, and wondering if I should run
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
or
4 Pyrokinesis
Thoughts?

Overextension.

I personally believe this is a topic that is fundamental to understanding how to play this deck. It goes along with understanding our role and adaptability within the game. Being under that umbrella of adaptability, I'd like to share some thoughts on it.

Overcommitting is a fun thing to do, and it is very easy to get caught up in it in a creature wall war with your opponent. They play one goyf, you play two more guys. They play a second goyf, you play two more, etc...but my personal solution to a beefy backcourt from my opponent (such as two goyfs or goyf + RWM) is to accelerate into CA mode. Our more controllish (thinking mainly bant here) opponents won't try to start a creature battle until ...
A) they are getting ready to assume the aggro role or
B) they have run out of more efficient answers to our goblins.

It's hard to assess which one, but most often it is A, so once they start pushing for victory we just have to set up our CA and forget the quick kill.

However, sometimes it is B, and this is a case where we should probably overextend even if it isn't for a final blow. Because we need to kill them quickly. You don't have to suicide rush them (don't do this unless you have all the information available to you), but some heavier risks should be taken if the reason they are laying a bunch of guys is B.

I'd remember two things in that,

1) instead of focusing on overextension and playing it safe and which is better, we should focus on being able to adapt on the fly, because few decks can change in this regard as fast as goblins because of our haste effects, easy ability to swarm a field (though this depends heavily on the build), and our CA engine if we want to play it safe.

2) most decks don't play mass removal anyway, so we shouldn't be too frightened when overextending. Yes there are other things but I'll get to that in a minute below.

ANOTHER WAY TO LOOK AT IT... I'd like to share this impromptu "step analysis"... generally I feel like most WINS with goblins go two ways:

1) We are Aggro
Step A: Early lackey/vial/instigator forces opponent into answer mode. If they manage to answer the early pressure, move to step B.
Step B: Goblin CA engine gets on while opponent attempts to wrap up the game with their (usually) more efficient deck. Worse players will think that step b is the end of the line but,
Step C: The Goblin CA engine leads to a swarm that kills opponents. We have to overextend in this stage to win before we have to go back to Step B again (and we might not be able to, depending on the ringleaders/matrons/SGCs left in our deck).

2) We are Control
Step A: We stop their early threat (merfolk horde, nacatl, etc.)
Step B: We set up our CA engine and overwhelm them (oftentimes through overextension).

Using this thinking we can see MWM is good when we are playing control and in Step C of us playing aggro. Not horrible, but the most important goblins happen in Step B of both (the card advantage part). When we are aggro, without step B, we cannot move to Step C, forcing us to win in Step A. Without Step B when we are the control deck, well...we could never really assume the control role.

I take two things out of this "step analysis." First, in piloting the deck: Overextension is a critical SKILL (yes a skill) to winning effectively with goblins. Second, and perhaps more importantly, in deckbuilding: We should be making card choices that match up with the step analysis and foster the development of Step B, while making sure we have the fundamentals of goblins in check to keep Step A in both alive.


Conclusion...
Overextension is one of our best friends and one of our biggest enemies. We have been classically conditioned to think it is bad. And sometimes it is. But we should always be remembering this: how can I maximize my percentage chance of winning? Although overextending can lead to bad things, it is often the highest percentage way to win a game. When your opponent laughs at you for mindlessly playing all your gobbos on the board chaining ringleaders, calling you a noob who couldn't even play around WoG, show them this post and punch them in the balls.

About your sideboard, I still dislike sharpshooter. I would go with 4 pyrokinesis.

But honestly, RB and perish are superior to MonoRed and pyrokinesis in today's metagame. With Zoo and ANT at the top of GP:Madrid, and this deck having a questionable matchup versus Bant anything, Red anything, and Dredge (some of the most popular decks at Madrid), I think it might be time to shelf the deck for a bit.

[alphastorm]

There's nothing wrong with over committing. I don't see too many decks running wrath of god or damnation. Most mass removals cost 4 or more and by that time, it's too late.

[FoulQ]

There's nothing wrong with over committing. I don't see too many decks running wrath of god or damnation. Most mass removals cost 4 or more and by that time, it's too late.

And also, that not overextending won't really help you against other non-traditional "board sweepers" like humility, moat, and ghostly prison.

There are other problems with overextending though. The most obvious one is wasting your matrons on stuff like piledrivers when you should be grabbing the traditional ringleader.

There are also a lot of subtle reasons, such as how you want your opponent to play. Force them to play the game YOUR way, which means overextending when YOU want to. Forcing yourself into the aggro role through overextension is a bad idea a lot of the time. However, overextension is the quickest and easiest way to win with goblins. It's hard to draw real life examples here because these situations are very intricate. But they happen almost every game.

But again, I don't think we should think of it as overextending versus not overextending...but rather, to make sure we have the ability to adapt to a situation fluidly and speedily (what goblins does better than any other deck), and overextension versus not doing it falls under that umbrella.

[jrsthethird]

Humility is very hard for us to beat, but Moat and Ghostly prison do not completely ruin us because we still have SGC, and in that case, we want a lot of guys on board because that is what determines how fast we can pull out a win from under the Moat.

[lotriderm]

Game 1 against decks that run Humility, Moat, and/or ghostly prison is pretty rough, which is why I run Anarchy in my SB.

I'm playing monoR right now, and pyrokinesis has been pretty underwhelming lately. I have been using pyroblast in its place right now (mainly for RWM). Is there any other options?

[FoulQ]

Game 1 against decks that run Humility, Moat, and/or ghostly prison is pretty rough, which is why I run Anarchy in my SB.

I'm playing monoR right now, and pyrokinesis has been pretty underwhelming lately. I have been using pyroblast in its place right now (mainly for RWM). Is there any other options?

This. If you aren't running x3 anarchy or x3-4 perish in your sideboard right now, you are doing it wrong. Mainly because Prog is a bitch, but thankfully, Progenitus has been reading up on some of Chomsky's stuff and is digging it, but your opponent doesn't know that, so they won't often play around anarchy very often.

It's a very, very underappreciated little gem in the game of magic. Poor, poor, anarchy.

Oh, and also it is good against white things, such as RWM and moat/humility/prison.

Perish does much of the same but is even better, because you can board it in with more success against the bant decks and the zoo decks. Behind warren weirding, it is THE reason to splash right now.

I don't think pyrokinesis is entirely replaceable in MonoR builds. The tempo boost is so amazing for goblins. You can try something oLdsKoOl like Lightning Bolt, or even consider something like more gempalms. However I don't think I'd want to board in pyroblast against bant, not worth the space IMO.

[lotriderm]

I am currently using 2x Anarchy, but I might bump it up to 3. But the problem with Pyrokinesis is that I almost always getting 2 for 1'ed, because the opponent's creatures are typically too big, RWM, goyf, nactyl etc. Even against merfolk, if they have 2 lords out, I can't kill both. Most of the time I prefer keeping the other red card instead of removing it because it's another goblin.

[bakofried]

Actually, I think MonoR is right for my meta right now. It's pretty undeveloped, and those who bring good decks tend to play blue-based control. I've also seen Enchantress on an occasion or two.
Basically, the point is that everything I'm scared of is white. So, go MonoR with Anarchy until someone starts dragging out Zoo.

[Mantis]

I went to GP Madrid and finished 109th out of 2220 people with RB Goblins. I went 8-1 day 1, with 0 byes and went a disappointing 3-5 on day 2 so no money for me. Day 1, I was lucky with my matchups and played some tight Magic, I did the same day 2, but had considerably less luck with pairings and had to take a lot more mulligans. But the increased skill level of the opponents on game 2 should not be disregarded either.

I was quite happy about the maindeck, but very unhappy about my sideboard. The maindeck was identical to Taco's list and included 2 Lightning Bolt instead off 1 Gempalm and 1 Stingscourger. The theory behind Bolt: it adds more 1 drops and therefore you can better handle fast tempo decks and therefore it helps you reach the lategame where you can beat those decks. This theory definately worked out in practice and I was very happy with the card, might go up to 3.

The sideboard however, was a mess, for reference:
4 Relic of Progenitus: was insane, singlehandedly won me at least 3 games and subsequently the match.
4 Thoughtseize: Horrible, I had 3 against ANT and still lost, I will never play this again.
3 Perish: should have definately been 4, was my only out on numerous occasions.
3 REB: I was expecting the Show and Tell deck and figured this would cover the combo, Merfolk and S&T MU. It was good against Merfolk but that MU is so good anyway that it's unneeded.
1 Earwig Squad: Will be moved to the maindeck, I never drew it but it has definately proved it's inclusion in testing.

I need something against Zoo as I lost two matches against inferior opponents. Perhaps Pyrokinesis will work, perhaps more Lightning Bolts, Boartusk Liege could help out, although it conflicts with Perish, maybe something crazy like Basilisk Collar or the solution could be Mogg War Marshall. Let me know what helps you beat the Zoo matchup.

I also had some talks with a Goblins player who sideboards out Goblin Lackey in the Zoo matchup claiming that it never connects anyway and therefore is useless. While I agree that it never connects, it does help you gain tempo as it forces them to either burn a removal spell or hold back a creature and thus ends up doing enough for a measly one mana investment. But I lost both of my matches against Zoo, so clearly I am doing something wrong, but I can't figure out what that is. I would appreciate to hear your views on the Zoo matchup.

[Nelis]

I haven't really played against zoo in a tournament since I'm usually the one at my local playing either goblins or Zoo. but have tested a bit. I actually liked Mogg War Marshall v mucht versus zoo..

It was this list: (I posted it before: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-%5BDTW%5D-Vial-Goblins/page195)

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Artifacts
4 AEther Vial

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

I never really liked Gempalm Incinerator in goblins but teaming it up with Mogg War Marshal worked wonders for me in the list above.

I wouldn't take out lackey because it does connect sometimes (turn 1 lackey, turn 2 weirding) and then it's good. I guess it's a matter of taking up the control role and try to get to midgame. Best advice I can give is trying to kill as many of his dudes as possible even if it means 2 for 1 so you get as less damage in as possible. And then try to finish it in midgame as quickly as possible.

[jrsthethird]

I agree on siding out Lackey against Zoo. I would put in 3 Perish (I only run 3 in my build) and 2 Relics (obv. side out something else, maybe a Gator, but not sure on this last one yet). I run a 2/2 split between Relic and Crypt, and I think the Relic helps more than the Lackey because it cycles and shrinks Goyf. Instigator probably has a similar problem connecting but he deals 2 damage instead of 1 (and 4 with a Chieftan out), so he has more use in creature combat. He trades with a naked Pridemage.

I run 2 Earwig Squad main, I am a huge proponent of this card and I'm glad you decided to move him MD. I've beaten Pro-Bant, Survival Elves, Entomb Hulk, Spring Tide, and countless other crazy decks solely on prowling him (I understand that I'm only listing 1 tier 1 deck but the point is that it's good against a huge number of decks you may or may not face). With a turn 1 Lackey into a Warchief effect you can get him as early as turn 2. I've also won games simply because he has a bigger body than any other goblin I could have had in that situation (racing a resolved Progenitus, dropping a hasty Craw Wurm changes things a lot). He is good against Zoo because he is our only guy who trades with Goyf.

I suggest Chalice against combo. Currently my combo board is 4 Chalice, 4 Seize. Seize has not hurt me yet, and I only tested Chalice once, but it singlehandedly won me a match against Storm Combo in a local event and I was very satisfied with it.

So how has REB worked out for you against combo? I don't see it helping too much, because blue is just the protection color, it doesn't really factor into most combos. Have you considered Mindbreak Trap? I tried a couple before I put in Chalice but it felt too narrow to me.

[markbris]

@mantis, any chance of a trip report? I'd def want to read it.

[Ozymandias]

I am going to test boarding out Lackeys versus zoo. It is an interesting thought. Does anyone board in Relic of Progenitus? I do, because it makes Goyf and KotR far less threatening, and draws into more business while doing so.

[FoulQ]

This topic was talked about before many pages back. This was back when the debate was still going on between Thoctar/KotR, but not quite as far back as Stalin/Trotsky.

The general consensus was that boarding out lackey is a bad idea. There were detractors but there numbers were far fewer. The same consensus was reached in NOT boarding in relic. I'm not saying this is correct now, or even was correct then; however, that is what people had decided back then. Remember to think about that when making your decision.

Personally I agree with the past opinions. If you board out lackey you force yourself (pretty much) to play control, losing a lot of adaptability. Yes, playing the control role is usually the easiest path to victory against zoo, but it isn't as good if you can't flexibly move to the other position as well, especially postboard when zoo can POTENTIALLY bring in some really difficult cards for us (though I don't really see cards like pyroclasm in many lists anymore).

[Joe_C]

I expect an uprising in aggro at the next tournament I will be attending. Here is my list as it stands for testing at the moment:

3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
15 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Stingscourger
4 Gemplam Incinerator
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
3 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Noteables:

No Warren Instigator, running him in tandem with port has been moderate at best, my last tournament I placed 4th running him as a 2 of in my deck and he didnt hit the board once, and got boarded out in almost every game. With more aggro present, the 4th incinerator and a few war marshalls should cover the grounds nicely.

[markbris]

is there some trick with stingscourger that I am missing? Can you get around echo with lackey or aether vial? Because in my testing I found him pretty underwhelming as i rarely found myself in a position to use him when i wanted and be able to pay the echo, which left me feeling like it wasn't worth it for a one time shot.

[bakofried]

I don't know, he did wonders for me in the quick Zoo MU's I did online.
Btw, if you don't board out Lackey, what would you board out for, say, 4 Pyrokinesis?

[jrsthethird]

is there some trick with stingscourger that I am missing? Can you get around echo with lackey or aether vial? Because in my testing I found him pretty underwhelming as i rarely found myself in a position to use him when i wanted and be able to pay the echo, which left me feeling like it wasn't worth it for a one time shot.

You will rarely pay the echo, and you will feel bad when you have to pay the echo because there are a hundred things you would rather do with your mana than pay 4 for a 2/2. You play him for the bounce. He is a great way to deal with a Tombstalker, Dreadnought, Iona (through Vial), or any other fatty cheated into play (except Progenitus). He also works excellent turn 2 after a Lackey to remove your opponents lone blocker. It should be noted that he also provides tempo by chump-blocking, and can be a 2/2 or 3/3 haste if you have the appropriate haste-giver out.

[bakofried]

Yeah, until I tried him out, I had no idea how versatile he was.

[Nelis]

is there some trick with stingscourger that I am missing? Can you get around echo with lackey or aether vial? Because in my testing I found him pretty underwhelming as i rarely found myself in a position to use him when i wanted and be able to pay the echo, which left me feeling like it wasn't worth it for a one time shot.

I agree with this. But it also depends on the kind of deck you are playing. If you play lackeys and Instigators then I would definitely play a few of them. But I will almost always play one no matter what build I'm playing. But like jrsthethird said, you hardly ever pay the echo.

[comeback]

Principal characteristics of Stingscourger are:

- it's a bouncer for every tuff monster except Progenitus
- it's a turn 2 bouncer for the first Goblin Lackey attack
- with Goblin Chieftain is a 3/3 haste bouncer
- in Bant it's a bouncer for a non blue creature for a massive piledriver attack
- with kiki jiki it's a combo bouncer

..it's a bouncer that u can use in a lot of way on the base of your game plan!

[jrsthethird]

Also, tempo advantage if you bounce an early Dryad Arbor! hahaha

[Mantis]

Naming a bunch of things a card can do doesn't make it a better card. Tarmogoyf does two things: attack and block, that's it. Yet it's the strongest creature ever printed. Versatility is not what makes something good, it's the ability to seal games or enable you to seal games. Attacking for 2 or 3 is rarely the game decider and even though it's not irrelevant, I'd much rather have a card that actually kills a creature instead of bouncing it: enter Warren Weirding. The ability to kill a creature is much more powerful than to bounce it.

[(nameless one)]

This topic was talked about before many pages back. This was back when the debate was still going on between Thoctar/KotR, but not quite as far back as Stalin/Trotsky.

The general consensus was that boarding out lackey is a bad idea. There were detractors but there numbers were far fewer. The same consensus was reached in NOT boarding in relic. I'm not saying this is correct now, or even was correct then; however, that is what people had decided back then. Remember to think about that when making your decision.

Personally I agree with the past opinions. If you board out lackey you force yourself (pretty much) to play control, losing a lot of adaptability. Yes, playing the control role is usually the easiest path to victory against zoo, but it isn't as good if you can't flexibly move to the other position as well, especially postboard when zoo can POTENTIALLY bring in some really difficult cards for us (though I don't really see cards like pyroclasm in many lists anymore).


Hey FoulQ,

My list currently does not run Mogg War Marshalls. I have been contemplating on putting them in but I dont really know what to remove. My 2-drops right now are: 3x Piledriver, 3x Instigator, 3x Stingscougers and 3x Incinerator. Against Zoo, would you suggest boarding out Instigators for MWMs instead?

Also, I would like to add that keeping Zoo away from their 'yard helps. It keeps their KotRs and Goyfs small and Lavamancers suboptimal.

Warren Weirding against Zoo is so and so as Weirding gives your opponent a choice on which creature to sacrifice. To make things worse, there are some builds that actually run Goblin Guides.

[Mantis]

If there are a lot of Zoo players with Goblin Guide in your area Incinerator suddenly gains a lot of value (keep in mind his Goblins count too).

[comeback]

I'd much rather have a card that actually kills a creature instead of bouncing it: enter Warren Weirding. The ability to kill a creature is much more powerful than to bounce it.

Hate vs creature I'm playing today is:

- 3x Gempalm Incinerator
- 1x Warren Weirdings
- 1x Stingscourger

What you say is true btw there some situation in which a bouncer could hel p you more than Warren:

- Stingscourger is vialable, so you bounce a creature and block oneother
- Stingscourger has a target

And again:
- in Bant it's a bouncer for a non blue creature for a massive piledriver attack
- with kiki jiki it's a combo bouncer

I'm not always looking for my Stingscourger but it could be a tuff creature!

[entity]

Hello,

haven`t played goblins for a pair of years, but I want to bring the little red men army to tournament next week :)
Now, the problem is that I don`t know which color to splash. Really want to play 4 Wasteland and 3 Rishadan MD, have all the lands needed for b and/or G splash, don`t want to play Instigators (as at least 7 of my lands won`t produce red mana). Metagame is...weird here, but I think I can expect a pair of Merfolks, Zoo, countertop, Dragon Stompy some kinds of aggro with Confidants and single decks like ANT, Enchantress, dredge, elves combo, burn...Basically I have a problem deciding which color to splash in this metagame and what cards to run. Anyone could help? :)

[Zythe]

Hello,

haven`t played goblins for a pair of years, but I want to bring the little red men army to tournament next week :)
Now, the problem is that I don`t know which color to splash. Really want to play 4 Wasteland and 3 Rishadan MD, have all the lands needed for b and/or G splash, don`t want to play Instigators (as at least 7 of my lands won`t produce red mana). Metagame is...weird here, but I think I can expect a pair of Merfolks, Zoo, countertop, Dragon Stompy some kinds of aggro with Confidants and single decks like ANT, Enchantress, dredge, elves combo, burn...Basically I have a problem deciding which color to splash in this metagame and what cards to run. Anyone could help? :)

It seems the concensus is that black is the color to splash if you're splashing. If you do that you'll want to run at least warren weirdings and perish in the SB.

[FoulQ]

Hey FoulQ,

My list currently does not run Mogg War Marshalls. I have been contemplating on putting them in but I dont really know what to remove. My 2-drops right now are: 3x Piledriver, 3x Instigator, 3x Stingscougers and 3x Incinerator. Against Zoo, would you suggest boarding out Instigators for MWMs instead?

Also, I would like to add that keeping Zoo away from their 'yard helps. It keeps their KotRs and Goyfs small and Lavamancers suboptimal.

Warren Weirding against Zoo is so and so as Weirding gives your opponent a choice on which creature to sacrifice. To make things worse, there are some builds that actually run Goblin Guides.

I don't suggest running a fairly broad card like MWM in your sideboard. I personally prefer to have stronger slightly more narrower cards like perish in my sideboard, regardless of if they are a goblin or not. This debate came up a long time ago when people were cutting mogg fanatics MD and were thinking, "should I play mogg fanatic or pyrokinesis in the sideboard?" (this was pre rules change, somewhat post rules change)...Anyways, my answer to that was pyrokinesis at the time. And I would rather play other cards than MWM in the sideboard.

Generally against zoo I board out 1 SGC (still playing 3), and then some combination of instigators and/or piledrivers. However, that is with mono red, and with the black splash I might consider boarding out warren weirding, depending on how many creatures they play. I've never been a fan of the card in this matchup.

Also when you are making deckbuilding decisions, looking at the curve like you are doing can be good, but I think we should be open to reevaluating our curve at any time.

For me, boarding in grave hate against zoo is bad. In the black splash, along with perish, it lowers the goblin count too much. We need strong ringleaders in order to establish our control role. If we can't reap a lot of card advantage of our ringleaders, well, then making the game go long does nothing but to delay death.

In a vacuum there is nothing wrong with GY hate against zoo, but remember we are goblins bringing in GY hate against zoo, and generally I've found that goblin SB cards that are not goblins that deal with a minimal amount of cards (Grim + Goyf + KotR) while lowering the ringleader count along with other nongoblin cards is not an idea we should follow.

That last sentence didn't make any sense, but it did in my head.

[markbris]

As far as the Rb build goes. I think terminate is a great sb option for the zoo matchup, it can always kill their best creature and isn't situational like perish. I've tested it a little bit and have been pretty happy. Like the guy from madrid mentioned before, I've started using 3 lightning bolt main and that has been great against zoo as well. You can actually get lackeys thru occasionally. If you lead lackey and they play a creature then you can bolt him and get going. I don't think most zoo players will see it coming the first game either. I'm currently running 3 bolts and 2 warren weirding main and then I can side in 3 terminates for my gempalm and the two weirdings.

[markbris]

I've been thinking about this deck alot lately and doing some research and we need to focus it down a bit more if we are going to make the changes to make this deck work well again. I think it's strong enough in the metagame, but maybe not in the current incarnation.

Working from the SCG article here,
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18925_Too_Much_Information_StarCityGamescom_Legacy_Open_Richmond.html

The decks we need to be focusing the most on, are

Zoo
Merfolk
Reanimator
ANT
Countertop/NO/Progenitus etc
Loam Decks- Aggro and 38 land
Dredge

I would say really the top 5 of those are the most important with loam decks and dredge being played less. So we need to set to work figuring out the optimal build to confronting this metagame. Most importantly I think we should take a step back and focus on the main problems these decks present. I'm not incredibly experienced with the matchups so people should fill in with their main problems with decks and what they have found that works well.

1) Zoo
- more efficient creatures and a quick attack with burn

2) Merfolk
- we have a pretty good matchup, although jitte can be a problem, and the new tarmo builds might be harder

3) Reanimator
- Iona, Sphinx, Inkwell

4) ANT
- storm obv

5) Countertop Progenitus etc
- Progenitus, tarmos, war monks

6) Loam Decks
- tabernacle, seismic assault, etc

7) Dredge
- redic fast starts

Basically what we need to work on are specific changes that can improve multiple matches. Maybe this means altering the MD alot, I don't know. We could def tailor this deck I think to beat on Zoo and merfolk pretty easily which are the two most popular decks atm but Progenitus is a problem because as we've already said, weirding is about the only way around it and its not that effective because they have more creatures. Storm is always a problem and will likely require some kind of large change to have any effect on the matchup. I personally believe a splash is the correct way to go right now and black is what I'm focusing on. Thats it I guess before I ramble

We are actually at somewhat of an advantage in SB games now as well since no one is boarding for goblins anymore.

[jrsthethird]

So considering the top decks:

Zoo - Burn sucks, but if we can last long enough we can get card advantage and they won't be able to burn out all our dudes. Perish kills most of their creatures (Kird Ape/Loam Lion is only a 2/3, but after the first few turns it's nothing special and we can live with them on board). Lavamancer is annoying but we can usually stick a single goblin to Incinerate him for 1, or just force him to trade with a Lackey early on. Terminate seems ok, but I don't think we have room due to the weakness we have to combo decks, and the other two options have more broad applications. Perish against Progenitus and Weirding against Reanimator. I think Earwig Squad is really good in this since he is our only playable guy who trades with Goyf.

Reanimator - We need more Weirdings because of this matchup. They don't run any green fatties so Perish is useless and they will rarely have more than 1 guy out at a time. They have shroud fatties so the lack of target is essential. Iona poses a problem, but forces them to not lock us out because of color. If they choose red, we can Weirding her. If they choose black (for some odd reason; shitty player?) we can try to race or something. Also, Vial on 2 with Stingscourger takes care of Iona.

Fish - Not something we need to worry about too much. I see Bolt being most relevant in this matchup, but we have an advantage here so we don't need too much of a gameplan. Earwig Squad can try to handle Jittes before they're drawn.

Storm combo - SB Chalice and Thoughtseize is our only hope. Hope to get a Chalice for 0 both games and that should buy us enough time.

Bant Survival/Bant Countertop - We can beat these decks easily if Progenitus was not part of the equation. Earwig Squad and Perish are proactive and reactive answers to him.

Loam decks - Speed is crucial here. GY hate out of the board helps but we just need to threaten them before their engine comes on.

Dredge - Same thing.

[practical joke]

I don't really agree with the sideboard plans against reanimator and ANT here.

I've played against 3 B/R goblin decks in Madrid as reanimator and I've never used iona or inkwell.
Akroma is the way to go, since she has haste, you hardly lose any speed.
Then again the deck finally have something reanimator do want to Force or Daze (besides a T1 lackey).
The deck can always reanimate a goblin from your graveyard and use it as canon fodder for warren weirding.
(btw chalice @ 1 hurts the deck a lot)
Also against this deck a well-placed thoughtseize can slow down the deck enough to win.

Against storm I think the thorn is better than chalice. Storm combo has no problem winning through a chalice @ 1. ( see LED, Petal, Cabal ritual, IT etc.) etc etc, while playing against a thorn they have to give up 1 mana for each acceleration. a well-placed thoughtseize + clock is key. even though they can protect it with mystical/brainstorm and SDT easily, I wouldn't count on having it a huge effect on their gameplan.

[JonBarber]

I agree with the point about thorn. I also run mindbreak traps just because its not something they're going to expect coming from goblins. As for loam, dredge, and reanimator: LEYLINE OF THE VOID. Its the best graveyard hate and shuts all 3 of the decks down (albeit reanimator can still show and tell turn 3, but then you hit them with weirding). I've done some pretty extensive playtesting against all those decks you listed there. Honestly, I've found my best matchups to be Countertop/NO/Progenitus, Merfolk, and Reanimator. With Leyline dredge and Loam become a lot easier. After some fine tuning, and 4 perish in sb now, I've found Zoo to be a little less than a 50/50 matchup, and I'll take that. ANT is always tough. I'm experimenting with Earwig squad as a way to just beat them.

My Current board looks like this:

4 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thorn of Amtheyst
1 Earwig Squad

[jrsthethird]

Forgot about Akroma, but she has pro-red/black so she might as well be shroud to us. Also forgot about Leyline...I should probably try that.

I was aiming at playing Chalice for 0 against storm. That way they can't play Petals or LEDs and that slows them down enough for us to either find a Chalice for 1 or apply enough pressure that Ad Nauseum would practically kill them.

[JonBarber]

Hmmm... I'm trying to decide if id rather have chalice or mindbreak traps. I feel mindbreak trap is much better against a variaty of decks, such as belcher, solidarity, etc. I'm really not sure...

[FoulQ]

I agree with the point about thorn. I also run mindbreak traps just because its not something they're going to expect coming from goblins. As for loam, dredge, and reanimator: LEYLINE OF THE VOID. Its the best graveyard hate and shuts all 3 of the decks down (albeit reanimator can still show and tell turn 3, but then you hit them with weirding). I've done some pretty extensive playtesting against all those decks you listed there. Honestly, I've found my best matchups to be Countertop/NO/Progenitus, Merfolk, and Reanimator. With Leyline dredge and Loam become a lot easier. After some fine tuning, and 4 perish in sb now, I've found Zoo to be a little less than a 50/50 matchup, and I'll take that. ANT is always tough. I'm experimenting with Earwig squad as a way to just beat them.

My Current board looks like this:

4 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thorn of Amtheyst
1 Earwig Squad

Interesting take on the sideboard, and similar to mine. Personally I'd rather have thoughtseize overall instead of mindbreak trap. It definitely takes more skill and understanding of combo decks, which is something I think many of us (myself included) need to work on to make good choices with a card like thoughtseize. Mindbreak trap is better than thoughtseize against combo, but we can bring it in against control decks and other decks where warren weirding is a dead card (such as the mirror).

When I ran leyline, I was very disappointed with it, particularly against aggro loam. The problem with mulling into it with goblins is that we often need to apply early pressure on the loam player. We either have to balls-to-the-walls them with stuff like t1 lackey t2 weirding, OR apply consistent pressure with an army of lackey/instigators, some stingscourgers, and a couple lands reserved in hand for their devastating dream shenanigans. The chosen path usually relies on having aether vial or not. Personally I think the consistent pressure route is better, but it's not very easy to pull off without a vial.

The problem then with leyline is that it can fuck up that plan. We already have to mull against loam quite a bit because nothing else but those two strategies will really work against the deck. Leyline causes us either to mull a fuckton more (have to have leyline AND a decent hand) or forces us into bad hands. And frankly I'd rather have good hands against loam than have a leyline and a bad hand, especially since most loam decks have some sort of postboard answers to leyline (ex. burning wish, maelstrom pulse) and ways to find them (ex. cycle lands, dark confidant).

Maybe it all just stems from the fact that I have never really liked leyline of the void. I've always been more of a traditionalist with my grave hate, crypt and relic. Time will tell what is most effective, people say they aren't as good against reanimator, but I haven't really looked into it.

My sideboard looks like this at the moment:

4 Perish
4 Thoughtseize
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3/1 Relic/Crypt
1 Earwig Squad

And otherwise here is my maindeck, not in shoddy MWS form:

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
8 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding


...I'm not yet sold on Auntie's Hovel, but I see why people play it. I'll stick with the tried and true formula for a legacy manabase for now. I haven't gotten in as much testing as I used to, but I think if you are looking for success in a modern metagame, you should look for a list similar to this one. The only recommendation I would make to some people is -1 SGC, +1 Chieftain, as I believe my playstyle naturally goes well with 3 SGC.

[Mantis]

I don't really agree with the sideboard plans against reanimator and ANT here.

I've played against 3 B/R goblin decks in Madrid as reanimator and I've never used iona or inkwell.
Akroma is the way to go, since she has haste, you hardly lose any speed.
Then again the deck finally have something reanimator do want to Force or Daze (besides a T1 lackey).
The deck can always reanimate a goblin from your graveyard and use it as canon fodder for warren weirding.
(btw chalice @ 1 hurts the deck a lot)
Also against this deck a well-placed thoughtseize can slow down the deck enough to win.

Against storm I think the thorn is better than chalice. Storm combo has no problem winning through a chalice @ 1. ( see LED, Petal, Cabal ritual, IT etc.) etc etc, while playing against a thorn they have to give up 1 mana for each acceleration. a well-placed thoughtseize + clock is key. even though they can protect it with mystical/brainstorm and SDT easily, I wouldn't count on having it a huge effect on their gameplan.
What are you trying to say here exactly? Warren Weirding is great against Reanimator. Sure, if you have Force, blue card, land, Reanimate and Entomb/Study+fatty or 2 Lands, 2 Reanimates, Thoughtseize/Daze and Entomb/Study+fatty then Warren Weirding won't save me and I will lose. But so does every other deck in the format... Warren Weirding is excellent against reanimator, it might just be the best trump card in the format. I think reanimator is going to have a very hard time post board against Goblins when we run 4 Relics and 4 Weirdings.

Thoughtseize is just a minor annoyance for ANT, it sets them back a turn maybe. In the GP I had 3 copies of Seize against my ANT opponent and still lost. Imagine that were 3 Chalices, Thorns or Mindbreak Traps. My current SB plan to combat ANT is 1 Earwig Squad and 4 Trap. With Squad you have a turn 3 clock against ANT and you can steal games of unsuspecting ANT players with Mindbreak Trap. If you win game 2 on the back of Trap and they try to play around Trap game 3, that gives you more than enough time to set up the Squad kill and you will surprise them twice.

[markbris]

I don't really agree with the sideboard plans against reanimator and ANT here.

I've played against 3 B/R goblin decks in Madrid as reanimator and I've never used iona or inkwell.
Akroma is the way to go, since she has haste, you hardly lose any speed.
Then again the deck finally have something reanimator do want to Force or Daze (besides a T1 lackey).
The deck can always reanimate a goblin from your graveyard and use it as canon fodder for warren weirding.
(btw chalice @ 1 hurts the deck a lot)
Also against this deck a well-placed thoughtseize can slow down the deck enough to win.

Against storm I think the thorn is better than chalice. Storm combo has no problem winning through a chalice @ 1. ( see LED, Petal, Cabal ritual, IT etc.) etc etc, while playing against a thorn they have to give up 1 mana for each acceleration. a well-placed thoughtseize + clock is key. even though they can protect it with mystical/brainstorm and SDT easily, I wouldn't count on having it a huge effect on their gameplan.


I know you played Akroma in madrid, but the winning decklist there was not packing it nor were the two top 8 decks from SCG 5K. No one talks about it in the reanimator thread so I doubt anyone is really running it and if they are they probably should'nt be. The reanimate a goblin from our yard is a stretch i would think that you have to have two reanimate effects in hand early and we have to put a goblin into the yard early which won't always be the case.

[markbris]

What are you trying to say here exactly? Warren Weirding is great against Reanimator. Sure, if you have Force, blue card, land, Reanimate and Entomb/Study+fatty or 2 Lands, 2 Reanimates, Thoughtseize/Daze and Entomb/Study+fatty then Warren Weirding won't save me and I will lose. But so does every other deck in the format... Warren Weirding is excellent against reanimator, it might just be the best trump card in the format. I think reanimator is going to have a very hard time post board against Goblins when we run 4 Relics and 4 Weirdings.

Thoughtseize is just a minor annoyance for ANT, it sets them back a turn maybe. In the GP I had 3 copies of Seize against my ANT opponent and still lost. Imagine that were 3 Chalices, Thorns or Mindbreak Traps. My current SB plan to combat ANT is 1 Earwig Squad and 4 Trap. With Squad you have a turn 3 clock against ANT and you can steal games of unsuspecting ANT players with Mindbreak Trap. If you win game 2 on the back of Trap and they try to play around Trap game 3, that gives you more than enough time to set up the Squad kill and you will surprise them twice.

What list are you running now? Are you using 1 earwig squad main?

[markbris]

...I'm not yet sold on Auntie's Hovel, but I see why people play it. I'll stick with the tried and true formula for a legacy manabase for now. I haven't gotten in as much testing as I used to, but I think if you are looking for success in a modern metagame, you should look for a list similar to this one. The only recommendation I would make to some people is -1 SGC, +1 Chieftain, as I believe my playstyle naturally goes well with 3 SGC.

I've been playing 4x Auntie's Hovel for a while now and have never had a problem with it. The drawback is nothing and I'm never really concerned about getting wastelanded playing goblins.

[FoulQ]

Thoughtseize is just a minor annoyance for ANT, it sets them back a turn maybe. In the GP I had 3 copies of Seize against my ANT opponent and still lost. Imagine that were 3 Chalices, Thorns or Mindbreak Traps. My current SB plan to combat ANT is 1 Earwig Squad and 4 Trap. With Squad you have a turn 3 clock against ANT and you can steal games of unsuspecting ANT players with Mindbreak Trap. If you win game 2 on the back of Trap and they try to play around Trap game 3, that gives you more than enough time to set up the Squad kill and you will surprise them twice.

I guess my thinking is, if one's metagame has shifted enough to really warrant mindbreak trap, I'm not sure goblins is the best choice. I'll stick with thoughtseize if I even do play the deck because of its broader applications, and because it can still win games against ANT. I wouldn't rely on a game where you draw 3 seizes and still lose as representative of thoughtseize's ability against combo, I think it takes more than that to prove thoughtseize is a waste of sideboard space. And we could always play with a pair of REBs to minorly combat combo, heavy blue-based decks like Dreadstill, and I've found it to be amazing against merfolk (since the easiest way to lose is a swarm of lords or jitte).

Although I do like mindbreak trap for costing 0, which is what has made chalice such a playable sideboard card in goblins for so long. But if I'm devoting sideboard specifically to storm, then I think I should probably just switch decks (and I actually am with 2 thorns).

[jrsthethird]

Hmmm... I'm trying to decide if id rather have chalice or mindbreak traps. I feel mindbreak trap is much better against a variaty of decks, such as belcher, solidarity, etc. I'm really not sure...

I look at it the opposite way. I see Chalice as playable against those decks (not sure about Belcher, never played against it but don't they have a bunch of 0 mana artifacts for mana? Trap is probably better here). Against Solidarity/Spring Tide, you can drop Chalice for 1 and they lose their engine (until they find a bounce, but it buys us time to find Earwig Squad). Mindbreak Trap can just be Forced or Duressed away. I guess the surprise factor comes in here, so I think I'm assuming the other player is going to be cautious and not go off without protection.

Chalice is also great against Reanimator and can be applied against Loam decks as well (probably not the best option, but it could help).

I'm also not as knowledgeable about the format as you so feel free to correct me. Also, I won't be attacking into untapped Aether Vials this weekend! =D

[Ozymandias]

Because I'm laying low with Dredge, I've decided to try out Goblins at the big tourney in my location. I know that in a wide-open metagame, splashing is probably best option, but as it turns out, the only duals I can borrow are Plateaus. I guess I'm looking for a good R/W list then. MD, I know I want 4 StP, but is there anything else? Maybe a Mirror Entity or something? Also, I have no idea what I want in my sideboard. Chant effects? Disenchant effects? Is Pyrokinesis still worth it? Thanks for your help.

For reference, my current list (I could only get my hands on 3 Plateau)

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
3 Plateau
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain

[JonBarber]

Interesting take on the sideboard, and similar to mine. Personally I'd rather have thoughtseize overall instead of mindbreak trap. It definitely takes more skill and understanding of combo decks, which is something I think many of us (myself included) need to work on to make good choices with a card like thoughtseize. Mindbreak trap is better than thoughtseize against combo, but we can bring it in against control decks and other decks where warren weirding is a dead card (such as the mirror).

When I ran leyline, I was very disappointed with it, particularly against aggro loam. The problem with mulling into it with goblins is that we often need to apply early pressure on the loam player. We either have to balls-to-the-walls them with stuff like t1 lackey t2 weirding, OR apply consistent pressure with an army of lackey/instigators, some stingscourgers, and a couple lands reserved in hand for their devastating dream shenanigans. The chosen path usually relies on having aether vial or not. Personally I think the consistent pressure route is better, but it's not very easy to pull off without a vial.

The problem then with leyline is that it can fuck up that plan. We already have to mull against loam quite a bit because nothing else but those two strategies will really work against the deck. Leyline causes us either to mull a fuckton more (have to have leyline AND a decent hand) or forces us into bad hands. And frankly I'd rather have good hands against loam than have a leyline and a bad hand, especially since most loam decks have some sort of postboard answers to leyline (ex. burning wish, maelstrom pulse) and ways to find them (ex. cycle lands, dark confidant).

Maybe it all just stems from the fact that I have never really liked leyline of the void. I've always been more of a traditionalist with my grave hate, crypt and relic. Time will tell what is most effective, people say they aren't as good against reanimator, but I haven't really looked into it.

My sideboard looks like this at the moment:

4 Perish
4 Thoughtseize
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3/1 Relic/Crypt
1 Earwig Squad

And otherwise here is my maindeck, not in shoddy MWS form:

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
8 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding


...I'm not yet sold on Auntie's Hovel, but I see why people play it. I'll stick with the tried and true formula for a legacy manabase for now. I haven't gotten in as much testing as I used to, but I think if you are looking for success in a modern metagame, you should look for a list similar to this one. The only recommendation I would make to some people is -1 SGC, +1 Chieftain, as I believe my playstyle naturally goes well with 3 SGC.

I tried thoughtseize and found it very underwhelming. I play ANT as well, and thoughtsieze is much less of a problem as opposed to MB trap. Normally discard/chants get sided out against aggro, but with MB trap, those cards are forced to be left in, slowing things down. Agreed that if combo is a big enough issue, this deck shouldn't be played. But while thresh is so popular, I think theres more than enough reason to play goblins.

Leyline of the Void is SO good. Especially in the b/r because we can replay it by turn 4. Leyline is much better against Aggro loam because a lot of their effects are for when lands go to the yard, and crypt/relic do nothing against that. I tested about 20 games vs dredge, and won 17 of them thanks to Leyline. It forces them to mull to bounce, and even that is iffy. Reanimator is put in the same position. Even if they get bounce and are able to reanimate something, weirding will most likely take it out.

My list is very similar to yours. I run 2 SGC and 2 Chieftan, as well as a 3rd incinerator no stingscourger. I also run 2 hovels in place of the extra 2 fetches. I've been experimenting with a basic swamp too because of wastelands. Have you given this a shot at all?

@jrsthethird I've taught you well!

[markbris]

I have no experience with mindbreak trap, can someone explain when to use it, how it works etc.

to clarify: do you just wait till he plays 3 spells and drop it ?

[jrsthethird]

I tried the basic Swamp thing, but I found that I was frequently red-screwed, and also that Wastelands weren't as big of a problem as I first thought.

[JonBarber]

I have no experience with mindbreak trap, can someone explain when to use it, how it works etc.

to clarify: do you just wait till he plays 3 spells and drop it ?

It depends on what you are playing. It requires a decent amount of knowledge about how any deck your playing against works. Most of the time against belcher you can just nail whatever win condition they try and play because MB trap hits Empty the Warrens as well. Against ANT, its not nearly as clear cut. If you think their going to try and duress you, its usually a good idea to hit ritual spells. From my experience, they usually don't see MB trap coming and just try and go off without protection. In that case, you hit Ad Nauseam with it. Against solidarity, you usually want to stop their draw spells.

[markbris]

It depends on what you are playing. It requires a decent amount of knowledge about how any deck your playing against works. Most of the time against belcher you can just nail whatever win condition they try and play because MB trap hits Empty the Warrens as well. Against ANT, its not nearly as clear cut. If you think their going to try and duress you, its usually a good idea to hit ritual spells. From my experience, they usually don't see MB trap coming and just try and go off without protection. In that case, you hit Ad Nauseam with it. Against solidarity, you usually want to stop their draw spells.

So does it work like a counterspell for free I guess? It stops all copies of tendrils or empty the warrens?

[JonBarber]

So does it work like a counterspell for free I guess? It stops all copies of tendrils or empty the warrens?

Exactly. The only downside is that it can be played around and pretty easily duressed out of your hand. But a force of will like card that can be played in goblins? I'll take it.

[Mantis]

You never hit Duress against ANT with Trap. If they have Duress they will
play it as spell number 1 or 2. You either hit their Ad Nauseum if they go Rit, Rit, Ad Naus. Their tutor target with Infernal Tutor target if they go for hellbent Tutor. And it really depends on the situation if they go for IGG. Honestly, its pretty self explanatory. Just wait untill they play an engine spell and nail that.

Against Solidarity Id just try to hit their untap spell but honestly even the most hardcore Solidarity players have dropped the deck.

[markbris]

does everyone favor relic of progenitus over tormods crypt? I feel like I like crypt more cuz its free so it doesnt slow me down first turn and i can activate it fully for free. Does relics cantrip and abiility to use multiple times outweigh this?

[bakofried]

I'm curious...which deck would have the advantage, Rb Goblins or Mono-Red, in an "almost" mirror match.

[FoulQ]

does everyone favor relic of progenitus over tormods crypt? I feel like I like crypt more cuz its free so it doesnt slow me down first turn and i can activate it fully for free. Does relics cantrip and abiility to use multiple times outweigh this?

Matter of preference. Relic helps with goyf/kotr/lavamancer as well, to some extent.


I'm curious...which deck would have the advantage, Rb Goblins or Mono-Red, in an "almost" mirror match.

Definitely mono red,
1) generally higher gempalm count which is really good, and generally higher stingscourger/sgc count which are both pretty good in the mirror
2) manabase less susceptible to wasteland, port shutting down splash
3) warren weirding is terribad
4) more likely to have sb pyrokinesis

[entity]

Just won the tournament (well, split in the finals with Enchantress), sadly not enought time for extensive report. Lost 1-2 vs Pro Counterbalance, won 2-0 vs TES, 2-0 vs Aggro Loam, 2-1 vs Aggro Loam, 1-1 with Enchantresss, in top4 2-0 vs Pro Counterbalance (same as round1), and split in the finals with Enchantress (to save time. Also, this matchup is boring.
List:

4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
4 Aunties Hovel
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Frogtosser Banneret
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Mad Auntie
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Earwig Squad

SB

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Now I would drop blasts and sharpshooter from sb to include 4 Cabal Therapy, blasts were not very useful vs TES and not that great vs counterbalace or whatever, where Therapys have much more use.

Comments on decklist and suggestions are welcome. :)

[markbris]

Comments on decklist and suggestions are welcome. :)

I'd take out the fanatics first, theres no way they are deserving of slots in this deck anymore. Secondly, I don't know why anyone is running less than 4 piledrivers, they are a house against merfolk and they let you get the trademark fast goblin starts, which you want as often as possible.You probably don't need tutuk either unless your meta is full of artifacts, the only reason id want him is for jittes but not enough decks run jittes. I'm not going to comment on the frogtossers cuz i have never used them. I think wort is too slow, not useful enough as well.

[jrsthethird]

Went 0-3 drop at Vestal; apparently there was a sea of Fish there and I get Stax, Dredge, and Aggro Loam. Go figure.

Would've won Stax matchup if he didn't topdeck a Sphere of Law, and it went downhill from there.

Not talking about this performance anymore; I'm still frustrated. I'll post again on goblins when I calm down.

[entity]

markbris: fanatics are still usefull as another drop t1 and clearing the way for lackey, also getting rid of all Bobs, Noble Hierarchs, lavamancers and other problematic creatures asap without having to get another gobliun into play and cycle incinerator. Not so great as they used to be, but still worthy a pair slots md imho.
piledrivers alone are a little disappointing. Dropping one t2 isn`t very scary, especially if no goblins were put into play t1. Also, with frogtossers md there`s already enough with 2-drops. Frogtossers compensate the speed loss, with frogtosser t2 I can play Ringleader or Matron+tutored Piledriver t3.
My meta has enough artifacts to include Tuktuk MD, so it`s more like metagame choice. Anyway I would probably play him in an unknown meta too, simply I hate the idea of randomly losing g1 vs jitte/chalice/whatever random artifact brokenness can come my way.
Wort is actually pretty good, she has evasion and is a must-answer-immediatly in most cases, because returning siege-gangs/incinerators/ringleaders from GY wins games very fast. Late game just wins games.

[Mantis]

How is Fanatic any better than Lightning Bolt? It cleans up a lot more creature and is actually very good against Merfolk and Zoo while Fanatic barely helps these matchups (I actually play 2 or 3 Bolts MD and have been fairly happy with them). He is unlikely to speed you up so much that you can win a turn quicker and hitting a Fanatic off Ringleader isn't going to be game changing in my opinion. I ultimately think that while Fanatic has some synergy with the deck, it's powerlevel is way too low to currently see play in Legacy.

[entity]

The problem with bolt is:
-lowers goblin count for ringleader
-does not gives bonus to piledriver
-does not gets bonus from lords
-can`t be vialed in
-can`t be returned with wort as a recursive damage source if you cannot attack for some reason(not very likely to be important)
-cannot be tutored with matron
-does not applies pressure and cannot block if an opponent has a bigger creature. Well, fanatic isn`t much of a threat either, to be fair. But Fanatic can block a goyf or RWM for one turn if needed.

Overall I`m a bit sceptical about an inclusion of Bolts MD, might give them a try sometime though. Maybe I`m wrong, happens :D

[Mantis]

It are all just cute tricks, the card itself sucks bad.

Ringleader and Matron: If you get to chain Goblins with Matron and Ringleader than you are in a phenomenal shape to win and Mogg Fanatic is often win more in those situations. However, it's obvious that Fanatic is better in this respect.

Chumpblock: If I am in a situation where I need to chumpblock Goyfs and RWM and trade 1 for 0, it likely won't matter since I will lose. Lightning Bolt at least has the potential to change that scenario around with a 1 for 2, block with Goblin damage, play Bolt. Or potentially even a 1 for 1, small Goyf or Instigator + Bolt.

Vial: I don't care about Vialing it in, since I do not want the card in the first place. Rather just have an actual good card.

Wort and lords: I don't run Wort, so I can't really commentate on that.

Piledriver: Lightning Bolt definately has it's merits concerning Piledriver as well, such as clearing the path for it to crash in.

Bolt on the other hand, is a major tempo tool. It kills your opponents investments for just one mana. It clears the path for Instigator and Lackey, which is huge. It's great against Zoo, takes their tempo away by nuking their first turn play. It can occasionally kill an unsuspecting combo player, although this is very corner case. However, don't get me wrong, Lightning Bolt has it's flaws and is definately a debatable inclusion in Goblins. I just feel like it's miles better than Fanatic and Goblins should under no circumstance run Fanatic right now.

[Amon Amarth]

FWIW I'm running 4 Bolts in mono red atm. Tempo is, with the current state of Legacy, much more important to this deck than the cute synergies offered up by weak Goblins. You can blow out other aggressive decks with a surprise Bolt to their only blocker. This also tends to make them play much more defensively. The current removal package I'm running is 4 Lightning Bolts and 3 Stingscourgers. I'm much happier being able to always kill stuff early on unlike Gempalm which has felt like win-more.

[entity]

Interesting. Any more opinions on the point of Bolt vs Lackey vs nothing at 1cc? I`m getting more and more interested in trying Bolts out during next tournament...

[ScatmanX]

Not Bolt vs Lackey, please.

Bolts are awesome. It is really good against lots of MU's. I was playing 4 until some time ago. Just removed them to test something different.
I first tested them when I removed Fanatics. Every single time that I drew Fanatics, I wished they were Bolts. And revealing them from a Ringleader really didn't made a difference in any game.

[markbris]

markbris: fanatics are still usefull as another drop t1 and clearing the way for lackey, also getting rid of all Bobs, Noble Hierarchs, lavamancers and other problematic creatures asap without having to get another gobliun into play and cycle incinerator. Not so great as they used to be, but still worthy a pair slots md imho.
piledrivers alone are a little disappointing. Dropping one t2 isn`t very scary, especially if no goblins were put into play t1. Also, with frogtossers md there`s already enough with 2-drops. Frogtossers compensate the speed loss, with frogtosser t2 I can play Ringleader or Matron+tutored Piledriver t3.
My meta has enough artifacts to include Tuktuk MD, so it`s more like metagame choice. Anyway I would probably play him in an unknown meta too, simply I hate the idea of randomly losing g1 vs jitte/chalice/whatever random artifact brokenness can come my way.
Wort is actually pretty good, she has evasion and is a must-answer-immediatly in most cases, because returning siege-gangs/incinerators/ringleaders from GY wins games very fast. Late game just wins games.

Like mantis said I'd rather have bolt against fanatic if anything, fanatic doesnt kill zoos one drops, other than lavamancers, bu it cant clear a wild nacatl or kird ape/loam lion if they run those. The fact that it hurts your ringleaders isnt a big deal like mantis said because drawing a fanatic off ringleader as opposed to a bolt doesnt really change much.

On the subject of wort, what matchups do you feel like it improves? I could see it maybe improving zoo, but most likely i'd rather just tutor for another siegegang than wort, that way I get something at least when they bolt/path/helix it. It doesn't help against combo, I guess its a house against merfolk but you don't really need anything more there.

[ScatmanX]

Wort is really good against Counterbalance decks, the mirror match, any Stax/Stompy deck, and any deck low on removal, once he win games by just sittign there (and attacking for 3).
That said, I don't run him anymore.

[entity]

Wort was great vs Aggro Loam, as a topdeck to be vialed in after devastating dreams. Also useful in Enchantress matchup to recur Weirding and slow him dowm killing Enchantressess (match went to time, and he was not fast enough), plus it`s a must-kill-immediatly for thresh. Did not tutored for her the whole day, but was happy to draw everytime.

[kinda]

I went 5-2 at vestal yesterday (13th of one hundred and change), picking up a play set of flooded strand.

4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
1 Stingscourger
1 Chieftain
3 Siege-Gang
1 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Instigator

4 Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Blood Moon

4 Mountain
8 Fetch
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Sideboard:
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Mindbreak Trap
3x Disenchant
3x Relic of Progenitus

Lost a terribly played game to survival and a close g3 to zoo.

[markbris]

I went 5-2 at vestal yesterday (13th of one hundred and change), picking up a play set of flooded strand.

4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
1 Stingscourger
1 Chieftain
3 Siege-Gang
1 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Instigator

4 Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Blood Moon

4 Mountain
8 Fetch
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Sideboard:
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Mindbreak Trap
3x Disenchant
3x Relic of Progenitus

Lost a terribly played game to survival and a close g3 to zoo.

I like your list alot, whats with the one blood moon? Seems like you would be better off with another instigator or some other goblin since u cant tutor for the blood moon. Other than that I think thats a pretty strong MD build.

[JonBarber]

I went 5-2 at vestal yesterday (13th of one hundred and change), picking up a play set of flooded strand.

4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
1 Stingscourger
1 Chieftain
3 Siege-Gang
1 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Instigator

4 Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Blood Moon

4 Mountain
8 Fetch
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Sideboard:
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Mindbreak Trap
3x Disenchant
3x Relic of Progenitus

Lost a terribly played game to survival and a close g3 to zoo.

I really don't like this list. Besides the disagreement with the splash, theres a couple of issues. First of all, blood moon? Main? You run 18 non basics! And not even a basic plains. And pyrostatic pillar on the side seems bad... Over half your deck costs 3 or less. 1 Mindbreak trap? Whats the point of that? You need to have it in your opening hand for it to really be useful. You also have no answer to Progenitus in this build.

[bakofried]

I'm curious as to one thing; do we have any tools to fight Pox-based decks? I'm just wondering, as a heavy discard package, lots of removal, and Flying beats give me a bit of hard time.

[JonBarber]

I'm curious as to one thing; do we have any tools to fight Pox-based decks? I'm just wondering, as a heavy discard package, lots of removal, and Flying beats give me a bit of hard time.

Aether Vial to deal with the land destruction and Warren Weirding to deal with their creatures. Discard can be rough, but the deck has some good CA.

[kinda]

The blood moon (would be 2 if i could have found a second) is fine...if u have a path in hand u play it before the blood moon, and if they have enough basics out to play creatures post moon,playing moon probably wasn't worth it in the first place. Pyrostatic pillar is only in there since I only had 1 mindbreak trap...but still with 4 lackey/3 instigator that will be unopposed vs. combo is the damage really an issue? Path to exile can preemptively deal with natural order-->progenitus...if they have a second creature in play weirding isn't going to do anything anyway. And lastly as far as the white splash is concerned...targeted removal with path to hit tarmo or rhox war monk over manageable creatures/the all important enchantment hate in disenchat can definately make the white splash superior, depending on your metagame.

Edit: I beat pox yesterday...vial is amazing but disenchant was necessary to deal with null rod (you'll more likely run into pithing needle though).

[JonBarber]

The blood moon (would be 2 if i could have found a second) is fine...if u have a path in hand u play it before the blood moon, and if they have enough basics out to play creatures post moon,playing moon probably wasn't worth it in the first place. Pyrostatic pillar is only in there since I only had 1 mindbreak trap...but still with 4 lackey/3 instigator that will be unopposed vs. combo is the damage really an issue? Path to exile can preemptively deal with natural order-->progenitus...if they have a second creature in play weirding isn't going to do anything anyway. And lastly as far as the white splash is concerned...targeted removal with path to hit tarmo or rhox war monk over manageable creatures/the all important enchantment hate in disenchat can definately make the white splash superior, depending on your metagame.

Edit: I beat pox yesterday...vial is amazing but disenchant was necessary to deal with null rod (you'll more likely run into pithing needle though).

How does it premptively deal with natural order?

The black splash has a MUCH better matchup against Probant because A. Probant plays very few creatures, so warren weirding almost always hits a tarmo/rhox war monk (even if it hits hiearch, its not neccessarily a bad thing.) Post board r/b brings in Perish, which rapes probant. Post board b/r has 8 ways to kill progenitus, where r/w has 0.

[ScatmanX]

Post board r/b brings in Perish, which rapes probant. Post board b/r has 8 ways to kill progenitus, where r/w has 0.

Though I Agree with you (I have 3 Weirdings md+4 perish sb), monored can use Anarchy FtW. Not that i recommend it.

[JonBarber]

Though I Agree with you (I have 3 Weirdings md+4 perish sb), monored can use Anarchy FtW. Not that i recommend it.

True anarchy can be brought in, but I was going off his list. But anarchy kills virtually no other creatures in the meta, can't be tutored for, and costs twice as much.

[bakofried]

But it also deals with many problem cards of Enchantress, such as Moat and Solitary Confinement. And Perish can't be tutored for either.

[JonBarber]

But it also deals with many problem cards of Enchantress, such as Moat and Solitary Confinement. And Perish can't be tutored for either.

I was making the comparison to warren weirding. Enchantress takes up a total 1% of most meta games. If its that bad in yours, play anarchy. But I'd say the most popular deck in the format is bant, which is where the black splash really shines through.

[bakofried]

I'd have to agree with you there, but out of the 15-20 people who play at my LGS, 1 has Enchantress, 1 has Burn, 1 has Landstill, 1 has Painter's Grindstone, and most of the rest are chaff; ergo, I don't pack hate for them.

[JonBarber]

I'd have to agree with you there, but out of the 15-20 people who play at my LGS, 1 has Enchantress, 1 has Burn, 1 has Landstill, 1 has Painter's Grindstone, and most of the rest are chaff; ergo, I don't pack hate for them.

There is no "perfect" list because not all meta's are the same. If theres no one playing tamro or anything green, it would be idiotic to play perish. If your dealing with a lot of moats, humility's, and solitary confinements, go ahead and play anarchy.

[bakofried]

I wasn't arguing that my list was perfect, and I wasn't arguing that Rb is not the correct choice in the current tournament scene, because it is. I just believe that my list is correct for my meta.

[JonBarber]

I wasn't arguing that my list was perfect, and I wasn't arguing that Rb is not the correct choice in the current tournament scene, because it is. I just believe that my list is correct for my meta.

Haha, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was saying the exact same thing.

[ddt15]

2nd at Open indianapolis:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-gang Commander
3 Stingscourger

Basic Lands
18 Mountain

Lands
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
2 Boartusk Liege
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy

Apparantly monored is still putting up the best results. Notice the absence of Warren Instigators as well. Maybe not as godly as everyone here seems to think? I always thought it had too much of a win-more factor.

[Justin]

Well, Goblins had been putting up results long before Warren Instigator was printed, so it should not be too surprising that a list can do well without him. However, I personally run four and think that it improves the deck significantly. A goblin deck went undefeated on Day One at GP Madrid with four Instigators, a black splash, and no Goblin Chieftain.

[markbris]

2nd at Open indianapolis:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-gang Commander
3 Stingscourger

Basic Lands
18 Mountain

Lands
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
2 Boartusk Liege
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy

Apparantly monored is still putting up the best results. Notice the absence of Warren Instigators as well. Maybe not as godly as everyone here seems to think? I always thought it had too much of a win-more factor.

A few things:

1) How was pyrokinesis in the sb, what mu did you side it in for?
2) Why only 1 siege-gang? Seems really low.
3) How was boartusk in the sb, what mu did you side it in for?
4) It'd be great to get a full Tourney report, did you play any combo?

I can see how your build is stronger against creature based decks, but it seems much worse against reanimator and combo.What do you think? Congrats on the finish though, I watched at least a couple of your matches online and was rooting for you.

[Justin]

A few things:

1) How was pyrokinesis in the sb, what mu did you side it in for?
2) Why only 1 siege-gang? Seems really low.
3) How was boartusk in the sb, what mu did you side it in for?
4) It'd be great to get a full Tourney report, did you play any combo?

I can see how your build is stronger against creature based decks, but it seems much worse against reanimator and combo.What do you think? Congrats on the finish though, I watched at least a couple of your matches online and was rooting for you.

I don't think ddt15 piloted this deck in Indy. I just think he was noting that a mono-red deck placed well there. I've played both pyrokinesis and boartusk liege in my sideboards in the past, but don't anymore. Pyrokinesis is good against swarm decks (including the mirror). The problem with it is that it only slightly improves your matchups there. I feel that it is probably better to devote sb slots to the bad matchups. However, if you are in a swarm deck heavy-meta, you are probably better off with pyrokinesis.

I boarded in Boartusk Liege against black decks, as protection from Engineered Plague. He was pretty good at this. He gives you a way to survive double Plague without splashing green for Krosan Grip. However, I don't see much Plague anymore, so I eventually dropped him.

The mono-red version posted above is a swarm deck that can grow its goblins in size. This improves its matchups with zoo and mana denial decks. If it is not running Instigator, then it is less likely to get down a Siege-Gang. That's probably why it only ran one.

I prefer a black splash build, with multiple Warren Weirding and Stingscourger to deal with re-animator and other big creatures. I also prefer the Warren Instigator build to put more early pressure on the opponent.

[markbris]

I don't think ddt15 piloted this deck in Indy. I just think he was noting that a mono-red deck placed well there.

oh, weak. I agree with pretty much everythign you said justin.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

That decklist has 61 cards. Have you considered dropping an Incinerator to get it down to 60?

Also, have you considered cutting a War Marshall so that you can add another Siege-Gang Commander?

EDIT 1: Doh, just saw that it wasn't his deck.

EDIT 2: Personally, I'd do exactly what I suggested and then replace the remaining two War Marshalls with Instigators.

[JonBarber]

Congrats to the pilot for placing 2nd, but I don't believe this list is optimal for the meta. Its better against fish and goblins, but rolls over and dies to many of the popular decks in the format. 2 anarcy is his only out for Progenitus, 4 relic for reanimator seems weak, and I don't see how it really stands any chance of beating combo. Thorn is very easy to play around, and without instigator I don't think enough pressure can be applied fast enough. I don't think a list can be taken as good/bad without knowing A. Its matchups and B. How it performed at several events.

Also, how is instigator win more? There is no other card that could be put in his place that has the same impact. A turn 3 hit from an instigator is almost a def win. Not to mention, along with lacky he's a great counterspell bait. I'd much rather have them force instigator than ringleader.

[markbris]

Congrats to the pilot for placing 2nd, but I don't believe this list is optimal for the meta. Its better against fish and goblins, but rolls over and dies to many of the popular decks in the format. 2 anarcy is his only out for Progenitus, 4 relic for reanimator seems weak, and I don't see how it really stands any chance of beating combo. Thorn is very easy to play around, and without instigator I don't think enough pressure can be applied fast enough. I don't think a list can be taken as good/bad without knowing A. Its matchups and B. How it performed at several events.

Also, how is instigator win more? There is no other card that could be put in his place that has the same impact. A turn 3 hit from an instigator is almost a def win. Not to mention, along with lacky he's a great counterspell bait. I'd much rather have them force instigator than ringleader.

pretty much agree with everythign you said

[junkdiver]

Hey guys, quick hypothetical question.

If the only deck you had was goblins, and you had the cards for the black splash, and you were in a combo filled meta, how would you build?

Black splash or mono red?
If black splash would you maindeck some number of Earwig squad?
Would you make slots for duress in the sideboard? (or Thoughtseize)

[JonBarber]

Hey guys, quick hypothetical question.

If the only deck you had was goblins, and you had the cards for the black splash, and you were in a combo filled meta, how would you build?

Black splash or mono red?
If black splash would you maindeck some number of Earwig squad?
Would you make slots for duress in the sideboard? (or Thoughtseize)

Your first problem, your in a combo filled meta. Goblins is DEF the wrong choice. Goblins should be played in a control heavy meta (maybe aggro heavy). To fight combo your going to have to fill your sb with a lot of non-goblin combo hate cards, and thats just going to mess the deck up as a whole.

[kinda]

You could maindeck thorn of amethyst and earwig squad and sideboard mindbreak trap...but that's kinda desperate.

[JonBarber]

You could maindeck thorn of amethyst and earwig squad and sideboard mindbreak trap...but that's kinda desperate.

At which point your ruining the point of the deck. Your better off just playing countertop, dragon stompy, or something along those lines

[Some Guy]

yes , as this person have said MD thorn and you have leyline in the SB. plus , relics should be in the SB too. there is also thoughtseize AND duress AND extirpate.