[DTB] Vial Goblins

[junkdiver]

To clarify, my hypothetical should have included the clause that you hypothetically only have access to Goblins, and no other legacy decks. I understand that Goblins is bad against combo and most aggro is, so I am sorry I made it seem otherwise, and hope this clarifies what I was trying to say ;)

[JonBarber]

To clarify, my hypothetical should have included the clause that you hypothetically only have access to Goblins, and no other legacy decks. I understand that Goblins is bad against combo and most aggro is, so I am sorry I made it seem otherwise, and hope this clarifies what I was trying to say ;)

Well, the next question becomes what kind of combo are you facing? ANT, Belcher, Solidarity, etc? And which one are you do you expect to face the most?

[Tacosnape]

Depends on what combo decks you're expecting to face.

That said, in no case do you get hurt by splashing black in a combo meta. Just varies what you'll want to actually main/board.

[junkdiver]

Lets say like mostly ANT and Belcher, but other random combo like Golden Grahms with FOW, and also Life.dec.

Thanks guys!

[JonBarber]

Lets say like mostly ANT and Belcher, but other random combo like Golden Grahms with FOW, and also Life.dec.

Thanks guys!

4 Lackey
4 Instigator
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
4 Vial
4 Piledriver
3 Earwig Squad
4 Chieftan
3 Siege Gang

4 Wasteland
4 Badland
6 Fetch
8 Mountain

SB:
4 Thorn
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Earwig Squad
6 Creature removal?

This would be my anti ANT/Belcher build. Earwig squad would def have to come out against belcher because they have way too many win conditions, but odds are you won't get to turn 3 against them anyways. Theres no maindeck creature removal, so if you play against something with a few more creatures in 'em, your gonna want to side those in. If there was more reanimator in your area, I'd suggest 4 leyline and 2-3 warren weirding, but you didn't mention anything. Hope this helps!

[Nelis]

You can add Chalice of the Void into the mix.

[JonBarber]

You can add Chalice of the Void into the mix.

Oh, true. Forgot about chalice. If your more worried about Belcher over ANT you could even maindeck that in place of earwig squad

[junkdiver]

Thanks for the info, and help guys! Earwig squad honestly seems great even against control. 3 cards with no restrictions seems pretty awesome.

[lillelassie]

Hi guys - I was wondering about the SB plan for the mirror? In my list with 4 Lackey, 3 Instigator, 4 Piledrivers, 1 Chieftain, 3 SGC, 2 Stingcscourgers, 3 gempalm, 1 MWM, 1 Fanatic, what do I take out for 4 Pyrokinesis and 1 Sharpshooter?

[FoulQ]

Thanks for the info, and help guys! Earwig squad honestly seems great even against control. 3 cards with no restrictions seems pretty awesome.

I disagree. Earwig Squad is pretty bad against most things, except for some things that are new today.

He has never been good against control decks, except for a landstillish deck that ran some truly painful silver bullets, and against potential engineered plagues from rock/landstill g2/3, but few people still run plague.

The reason Earwig Squad is playable now (I never thought he was before) is because of prog/iona, bant survival popping up, lands with loam, the rise of combo, and the already current viability of the black splash.

[ScatmanX]

I have been running 3 Squad main for a while. Against 2-3 color decks, its just awesome to Waste a Tropical, the remove the others, leaving them without a color. It is happening a lot more than I thought it would.
Squad is great, because it gets by most sideboard cards, like plague, by being huge, BeB, by being black, Propaganda, by being huge again... And agains't any deck, removing 3 Goyfs is simply gamebreaking.
I'll use him this weekend, and share the experiance.

[JonBarber]

I have been running 3 Squad main for a while. Against 2-3 color decks, its just awesome to Waste a Tropical, the remove the others, leaving them without a color. It is happening a lot more than I thought it would.
Squad is great, because it gets by most sideboard cards, like plague, by being huge, BeB, by being black, Propaganda, by being huge again... And agains't any deck, removing 3 Goyfs is simply gamebreaking.
I'll use him this weekend, and share the experiance.

Honestly, I don't think he should be run unless theres a lot of ANT in your meta (in which case you really shouldn't be playing goblins). The list is so tight and hes not worth the slots hes taking up. Goblins doesn't need to rely on strategies like color denial to win. We run wastes for tempo, but its not required.

[danielcrocker]

Hello to all, I am new to this forum and I'm trying to get this list I'm working on fine tuned ...let me know what you think. I'm debating playing r/b splash for a better combo matchup but I feel mono is a better list.


This is the list Jeremy and I came up with ....

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-gang Commander
3 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Pyromancer

Basic Lands
18 Mountain

Lands
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy

[bakofried]

I'd up the Siege-Gang count. They're amazing in a good lot of MU's.

[jrsthethird]

I would suggest playing a couple Rishidan Ports, and try to find room for Warren Instigator.

[dar482]

Goblin King should be somewhere to randomly win against mirror, Zoo, or whatever decks with Mountains.

[(nameless one)]

Goblin King should be somewhere to randomly win against mirror, Zoo, or whatever decks with Mountains.

Before I used to doubt this call but with the current meta, I think it is the right call.

Not only it helps Goblins by getting bigger, Mountainwalk can finish off Zoo pretty fast. A must kill for Zoo.

[Dino]

I went 4-0 in a small (about 20) people Monday night Legacy event with Rgb Goblins, here's my list:

4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
4 Warchief
3 Piledriver
2 Gempalm
2 SGC
2 Warren Instigator
1 Kiki-jiki
1 Tin Street
1 Stingscorger
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Warren Weirding
1 Wort
4 Vial
8 Red Fetches
4 Mountain
4 Wastelands
3 Ports
2 Badlands
2 Taiga

SB:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin King
2 Krosan Grip
3 Perish
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void

My sideboard is built with a meta that includes graveyard decks, thresh, zoo, few combo decks and no goblin mirrors. The Jitte and E.E.s are pretty random, but are very good against the zoo decks, merfolk, killing goyfs, and random cards with 3 or less mana cost.

I beat merfolk(with goyf) 2-1 with 2 early piledrivers followed by ringleaders, and resolving wort with recurring weirding and gempalm
I then beat Dredge twice, 2-0 and 2-0 with game 1 instigator into SGC and kiki-jiki and game 1 Lackey into SGC into piledriver and warchief. both game 2s involved aggressivly mulliganing to 4 and 5 to drop a leyline that stayed on board until they both scooped a few turns later.
I then beat Green-Black rock with darkdepths combo 2-0 Game 1 on the play with lackey into Warchief into 2 piledrivers the next turn. And Game 2 involved vial into 3 wastelands into warchief -> Wort -> recurring wierding and drawing my 1 jitte right after he played a jitte of his own.

Other sideboard cards I have considered would be Pyrokinesis, Price of Progress, more chieftains, Boartusk Liege (although doesn't work well with Perish), Cabal Therapy, or crypts

I really don't think you should be playing Goblins if you expect a lot of combo decks, Goblins has a horrible game against combo and when they just bounce your hate pieces or chant you then going off, I found that it isn't worth wasting sideboard slots on trying to improve the combo matchups

[danielcrocker]

I really didn't like goblin king that much. If someone is piloting zoo do you really think they will allow it to stay in the game? In the mirror I found goblin pyromancer is really helpful especially since if you are playing mogg war marshall. Using vial to catch them off guard ... Or just swinging for a whole lot the wiping the board. As far as combo goes I just think that we should at least not roll over and die and try to disrupt it in some way ... I still have to test more but I still think I'm going to run thorn, chalice, traps.

[FoulQ]

Goblin King should be somewhere to randomly win against mirror, Zoo, or whatever decks with Mountains.

ARGH. I don't mind if people think goblin king can fit in to certain metagames, but a fringe card played in like 10-25% of goblin decks should not be mentioned as a "should be" next to the sanctity of aether vial, goblin lackey, and most importantly, mountain.

Now for the card itself, why do people still run this?

Firstly against the mirror it is atrocious, because it is only advantegous in a winning position, and in a moment's instant during the combat phase your opponent can gempalm him and fuck up everything, or better yet, be tapped out and cast pyrokinesis and totally surprise rape all your goblins. Do you like rape? I don't. So you shouldn't treat your happy-go-lucky goblins like that (ex. goblin lackey look how happy he is)

Secondly now Zoo. The last thing you usually want to do with zoo is make it a damage race, unless you are already in a very advantegeous position, in which case goblin king could have been something more useful in a losing position (ex. mountain)

I guess y'all just love rolling dice with your games, but think of that tournament entry fee on the line! Would you put all your money on goblin king, even though you know your opponent is flipping in his hand through his lightning bolts and path to exiles and chain lightnings and lightning helixes and swords to plowshares and (including anything with mountains...) his fire/ices and his pyrokinesi (sexy) and his magma jets and his incinerates and his hundreds of other redudant burn spells and his random 1-of fork + shower of sparks combo!?! (never understood those fucks)

And some decks that run mountains and don't have a lot of removal...he's even not that great against them. Unblockable against aggro loam? Congrats, they run like 3 different creatures anyways, did you really need the help for that?

I am making it my personal mission to rip up every goblin king in the universe so that all y'all will never play him again. I've already got a pile building up of about 4 of them.

[markbris]

I've started making some mws videos of me playing my Rb goblins build. Figured you guys might want to check em out if you are bored.

http://www.youtube.com/brisl003#p/u

I'd love to do some videos against some DTB's or something if someone wants to play them against me. Just PM me.

[Arsenal]

I have a mono-red build that's currently running a playset of Lackey, Instigator, and Vial. Between these 12 cards that cheat stuff into play, I'm finding myself less and less impressed with Warchief; often times, I wish it were a Chieftain (I currently run them as a 2-of). My question is this: in mono-red builds running the Lackey/Vial/Instigator playsets, how necessary does Warchief become as an auto 4-of? He does allow for some rediculous mainphases, but often times I feel like it's win-more if I'm able to swing in with my team anyway (among them, a Lackey or Instigator should connect).

[markbris]

I'll say this, have you seen a build that has done well without 4 warchief? I'd never go under 4 in any build really. They let you do rediculous stuff sometimes and the creature cost reduction is awesome alot of the time.

[jrsthethird]

Only time where you don't run Warchief is if you're RB and you run Bannerets instead.

[Brizentine Empire]

I have a mono-red build that's currently running a playset of Lackey, Instigator, and Vial. Between these 12 cards that cheat stuff into play, I'm finding myself less and less impressed with Warchief; often times, I wish it were a Chieftain (I currently run them as a 2-of). My question is this: in mono-red builds running the Lackey/Vial/Instigator playsets, how necessary does Warchief become as an auto 4-of? He does allow for some rediculous mainphases, but often times I feel like it's win-more if I'm able to swing in with my team anyway (among them, a Lackey or Instigator should connect).

Honestly, in my 2+ years experience with the deck, I've found that 4x Warchief and 4x Chieftain is the correct number. Instigator is IncrediBad imo, he's rarely going to get in for damage and you have plenty of other cards to cheat guys into play. I like Mogg War Marshall as well; he is also amazing with the 4x Chieftain. I suggest the list that topped a recent Meandeck open (Johnathan Benson's list) or the list that took second at the recent Star City Games 5k event in Indianapolis. They're the same list, and you can't argue with results. The only difference I would make is playing a 1x Siege-gang as a Matron target, it helps you out in odd spots (Moat, multiple Propaganda effects, etc).

[markbris]

Does anyone want to help me test my Rb goblins list? It's essentially the same one mantis did so well with at GP madrid. I'd like to test against zoo, ant, lands, probant etc. I'll play the other decks and you can play the goblin list if you want, just want to see how the list does. pm me.

[jrsthethird]

Honestly, in my 2+ years experience with the deck, I've found that 4x Warchief and 4x Chieftain is the correct number. Instigator is IncrediBad imo, he's rarely going to get in for damage and you have plenty of other cards to cheat guys into play. I like Mogg War Marshall as well; he is also amazing with the 4x Chieftain. I suggest the list that topped a recent Meandeck open (Johnathan Benson's list) or the list that took second at the recent Star City Games 5k event in Indianapolis. They're the same list, and you can't argue with results. The only difference I would make is playing a 1x Siege-gang as a Matron target, it helps you out in odd spots (Moat, multiple Propaganda effects, etc).

With so many RR cards you would think Instigator is terrible. Also, War Marshal becomes a lot better if you run 4 Cheiftans. It all depends on how you run the key goblins, but I'm sure that you would find that Instigator is amazing and War Marshal is average if you built your deck differently.

[Brizentine Empire]

With so many RR cards you would think Instigator is terrible. Also, War Marshal becomes a lot better if you run 4 Cheiftans. It all depends on how you run the key goblins, but I'm sure that you would find that Instigator is amazing and War Marshal is average if you built your deck differently.

Point taken. I just feel like your turn 2, especially on the draw, should be used to get your lackey through or to greatly enhance the board position, either by dropping a stingscourger or cycling an Incinerator to achieve the first option or to drop War Marshall for the second. I just don't feel like Instigator achieves either of these; it puts another sick goblin into play that's most likely not going to connect against a mojority of the decks out there. By turn three, you're either facing a goyf with removal back-up or multiple merfolk lords, or a few beefy 2/3s or 3/3s from zoo. Still, though, I would love to hear the arguments for Instigator, if they're valid.

[JonBarber]

Point taken. I just feel like your turn 2, especially on the draw, should be used to get your lackey through or to greatly enhance the board position, either by dropping a stingscourger or cycling an Incinerator to achieve the first option or to drop War Marshall for the second. I just don't feel like Instigator achieves either of these; it puts another sick goblin into play that's most likely not going to connect against a mojority of the decks out there. By turn three, you're either facing a goyf with removal back-up or multiple merfolk lords, or a few beefy 2/3s or 3/3s from zoo. Still, though, I would love to hear the arguments for Instigator, if they're valid.

Magic is an extremely adaptable game. Instigator is poor in some metas, and amazing in others. Its all about what you expect to be facing. In a more aggro heavy meta, instigator isn't as good. Your not very likely to get him through, and they likely have removal for him. On the other hand, against a combo/control heavy meta, he is god like. 99% of the time, control decks are going to daze/force your lackey. Your turn two removal becomes pretty shitty at that point. With instigator, your just applying the pressure that much more. Decks like Probant, Team America, MUC dont have many creatures. Backed up with a warren weirding, its surprisingly easy to get instigator through. Against combo, instigator is huge. He allows you to fill the board with goblins so much faster. It gives us a chance to possibly race them.

So don't be so quick to put instigator down. In certain metas, hes really good. In others, not so much. But before telling everyone everywhere not to play him because he's "terribad", think again.

[bakofried]

What's a decent manabase for Mono-R Gobs that uses Winstigator as a 3-of? I'm wondering if I should pop for more Ports, because I'm seeing more and more people drop them to support him.

[jrsthethird]

I think 4 Wasteland and 2 Port should be fine, but give it a whirl and see.

[JonBarber]

What's a decent manabase for Mono-R Gobs that uses Winstigator as a 3-of? I'm wondering if I should pop for more Ports, because I'm seeing more and more people drop them to support him.

I also recommend 4 waste and 2 port.

[bakofried]

How many red sources should I have? I've seen 17, but I'm wondering if 16 would be enough. Also, I'm thinking of going to 2 Siege-Gang's to support the 4th Instigator.

[Brizentine Empire]

Magic is an extremely adaptable game. Instigator is poor in some metas, and amazing in others. Its all about what you expect to be facing. In a more aggro heavy meta, instigator isn't as good. Your not very likely to get him through, and they likely have removal for him. On the other hand, against a combo/control heavy meta, he is god like. 99% of the time, control decks are going to daze/force your lackey. Your turn two removal becomes pretty shitty at that point. With instigator, your just applying the pressure that much more. Decks like Probant, Team America, MUC dont have many creatures. Backed up with a warren weirding, its surprisingly easy to get instigator through. Against combo, instigator is huge. He allows you to fill the board with goblins so much faster. It gives us a chance to possibly race them.

So don't be so quick to put instigator down. In certain metas, hes really good. In others, not so much. But before telling everyone everywhere not to play him because he's "terribad", think again.

If you are attempting to play goblins in a combo-heavy meta, I think that is your first mistake. And when have you seen Teen America or MUC in a T8 of a major event in the last six months? I suppose if these decks make your meta, then Instigator may see more play, but the tier 1 decks right now are Zoo, Merfolk, and Bant, all of which I believe to be MUs where Instigator doesn't shine.

[bakofried]

I like him, as do several others. Have you tested him out yourself? If he doesn't work for you, fine. He works in other metas just fine.
Also, I'm wondering as to what your guys choice of Storm hate is. Pillar? Thorn? Chalice? Trap? Which one works best, and should you have 1-2 Blasts to back them up?

[jrsthethird]

I run 4 Chalice and 4 Seize in the board, as well as 2 Earwig main.

[daPaule]

Also, I'm wondering as to what your guys choice of Storm hate is. Pillar? Thorn? Chalice? Trap? Which one works best, and should you have 1-2 Blasts to back them up?

I'm running one Earwig main and a 2nd in SB. Additionally 3 Traps and 2 Thorn, still i lost vs Ant this weekend in the first round though i got an Earwig prowled. I took Ad Nauseam, Iggy and... MEDITATE. Yes he had Tendrils and Doomsday in hand and finished me next turn. This just shows that Combo for me at least is more or less a coinflip. If you draw a good hand and he can't finish it in time your goodl in shape, mostly i was not very happy with my SB in this matchup.
Either im drawing a good hand without hate or i draw hate with medium and my opponent therefore gets enough time to play around hate and win before i can.

Overall this weekend was pretty horrible for me:
ANT: 1-2
CBtop proBant: 0-2, winning vs 2 last time i played, now this.. again i'm holding just a mediacre hand first game and he can stall me long enough to find Goyf and Rhox, 2nd a fast fatty kills me.
Bye, yeah first points... :(
Aggroloam: 1-2, when i'm failing i'm failing...
White Weeny: 2-0, no real competition here. First game my Ringleaders didn't reveal at least 2 non Goblins and so it went down for him.

[jrsthethird]

List that just placed first yesterday at SCG Orlando 5K: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32009

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
1 Earwig Squad
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-gang Commander
1 Stingscourger

Tribal Sorcerys
3 Warren Weirding

Basic Lands
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Blood Moon
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Price Of Progress
3 Pyrokinesis

I like the Blood Moon tech in the board (with basic Swamp), has anyone experimented with that?

4/1/3 split between Incinerator/Scourger/Weirding looks like a personal choice (mine is currently 2/2/3), and he doesn't run Instigator (again, personal choice).

Why is he only running 3 Mires for his basic Swamp? What advantage does Tarn give you over the 4th Mire? I understand the 2 Badlands/3 Port/6 fetch setup (leaves you more open to Stifle but less open to Wasteland, personally I think this is a good choice).

Other than that, I'm confused by his sideboard. I'm surprised he only runs 2 GY hate and 3 combo hate (especially since he doesn't run Instigator to improve the combo matchup).

I don't see Price of Progress as a good choice (his mana base is set up to maximize its effectiveness but I still think this card is not the best for us, I may be wrong). I also think the Pyrokinesis spot is better served by something like REB (given how popular Fish and Bant decks are).

I'm also not sold on Boartusk Liege. What's the point?

I would like to see a tournament report to explain some of his choices, because I don't recall seeing them discussed here. Overall though I'm happy with the performance.

[(nameless one)]

Congrats on Goblins!

I think Liege was there as an anti-Plague dude. I actually run 2 as they are good against both Plague and Zoo. Before, I used to run 3x Blood Moons but I am running Mono-Red. I also ran Goblin Kings alongside Blood Moons.

[kinda]

I definately agree with running blood moon, I ran one when i went 5-2 at vestal and it was very good...I would run 2 md and one in the board if I ran goblins again. Though I dont understand running 3 moon and 3 pop...pop is dead after a moon and they both come in against the same decks...

[(nameless one)]

If that were my sideboard right now, I would actually replace POP with Pyrokinesis or Shattering Spree.

[Avatara]

I definately agree with running blood moon, I ran one when i went 5-2 at vestal and it was very good...I would run 2 md and one in the board if I ran goblins again. Though I dont understand running 3 moon and 3 pop...pop is dead after a moon and they both come in against the same decks...

They become Mountains but they maintain their non-basic status.

[ScatmanX]

Knesis cannot be removed from that SB. Not with 3 Warrens Weirdings MD. You need them for the mirror.
I miss grave hate in that SB. Just 2 Tormord's don't make it for me. I also don't get why 3 Traps. why not 4, or 0?
He deffinetly should have played with the 4th Mire if he wants the Swamp.
Also, does anyone think that 14 red sources are too few?
The last thing are the PoP + Moons. That's weird. Fear of 43 lands much?
Also wonder why he does not run Perish...

[Hyped]

Hello, I would like to share my current list for vial goblins and look forward to any constructive criticisms you guys may have, as I am having some trouble. Please consider my explanations before flaming!

3 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 badlands
4 mountain
1 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
1 goblin burrows
1 ancient tomb

4 vial
4 lackey
4 matron
4 ringleader
2 gempalm incinerator
4 piledriver
3 warchief
2 siege-gang
1 prospector
1 sharpshooter

3 warren weirding
1 goblin king
1 wort, auntie
1 goblin sledder
1 ib, halfheart
1 tinkerer
1 earwig squad

SB -
2 vexing shusher (zoo runs them why shouldn't gobos?)
1 tinkerer
2 shattering spree
3 thorn amethyst
4 red elemental blast or duress or therapy ??
Patriarch's bidding or dralnu's crusade vs. engineered plague?
chieftain or pyrokenisis or brightstone ritual vs. mirror?

flairing pain or anarchy vs. white?
Pyrostatic pillar or mindbreak trap vs. storm / EtW / Tendrils?

Explanations :

I would love to run 4 instigators and a pyromancer main, or even therapy / duress; but don't see where I can get the room.

I run ib halfheart / sledder / king and 3x weirdings because I play alot of other aggro decks full of creatures and they would be the first to go when sideboarding against non aggro

Obviously I need alot of help with the SB! Thank you all any input would be appreciated! And would Auntie's hovel be of any use to replace the basic lands?

[bakofried]

You've got a thing for a Matron toolbox; I'd really recommend you cut most of it. Maybe keep the Tinkerer, and Wort, but otherwise, it's not going to help much. Goblin Sledder? Why? I could say the same for Ib, and Squad as well; Squad is only playable vs. combo, but you won't have time to tutor him, in all likelihood. I'm not trying to flame, but a lot of it seems subpar.
I'd also advise getting rid of Burrows and Ancient Tomb; I really doubt they help, especially as a one of each.

But there was one thing I wanted to ask about; people are running Wort as a one-of, for an extra source of CA. I was wondering if anyone running Rb Gobs had tried Volrath's Stronghold.

[from Cairo]

You've got a thing for a Matron toolbox; I'd really recommend you cut most of it. Maybe keep the Tinkerer, and Wort, but otherwise, it's not going to help much. Goblin Sledder? Why? I could say the same for Ib, and Squad as well; Squad is only playable vs. combo, but you won't have time to tutor him, in all likelihood. I'm not trying to flame, but a lot of it seems subpar.
I'd also advise getting rid of Burrows and Ancient Tomb; I really doubt they help, especially as a one of each.

Signed. By the time you're able to tutor for any of these "tech/toolbox" cards there are just better things to grab in most cases.


I run ib halfheart / sledder / king and 3x weirdings because I play alot of other aggro decks full of creatures

Traditional removal (Gempalm/Weirding/Scourger) are better options than those above.

-8 (5)
1 goblin king
1 goblin sledder
1 ib, halfheart
1 prospector
1 sharpshooter

1 tinkerer (playable, depending on meta)
1 wort, auntie (playable, but I'd rather run SGC #3 personally)
1 earwig squad (playable, again meta dependant, but if you face alot of decks it's good against than run a few. It's not worth it as a tutor target because the decks it's good against it needs to get in play faster than turn 4)

+8
1-2 Removal (Gempalm, Scourger)
1 Goblin Warchief

Additional slots could be: Goblin Chieftains, Warren Instigators, Mogg War Marshalls, an additional Siege Gang Commander, a 23rd land.



3 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 badlands
4 mountain
1 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
1 goblin burrows
1 ancient tomb


And would Auntie's hovel be of any use to replace the basic lands?


Auntie's Hovel could be useful replacing 2-4 of the non-Red producing land.

On land you have 22 total and only 12 Red sources, I'd bump that up to 16 bare-minimum. I personally would go with 23 land total and 17-18 Red sources (but I don't like to lean to hard on Lackey and Vial), 22 can be sufficent if you run enough Red producing land.

[Hyped]

You've got a thing for a Matron toolbox; I'd really recommend you cut most of it. Maybe keep the Tinkerer, and Wort, but otherwise, it's not going to help much. Goblin Sledder? Why? I could say the same for Ib, and Squad as well; Squad is only playable vs. combo, but you won't have time to tutor him, in all likelihood. I'm not trying to flame, but a lot of it seems subpar.
I'd also advise getting rid of Burrows and Ancient Tomb; I really doubt they help, especially as a one of each.

But there was one thing I wanted to ask about; people are running Wort as a one-of, for an extra source of CA. I was wondering if anyone running Rb Gobs had tried Volrath's Stronghold.

Sledders -> I was thinking sac blocked creatures to make unblocked creatures into lethal damage, admittedly situational.

One ofs -> So you're saying putting one-ofs with quirky abilities to matron for is no good because 9 times out of 10 you will be matron-ing for a more needed card like ringleader? That does make sense.

Thank you for the speedy responses!

/edit/ And chieftain > king even vs. zoo and other decks with mountains?

[bakofried]

Si. You should factor blockers into the equation even with King; a surprise Bolt/Path/Etc. could leave your army decimated, and you open to a lethal counterattack. Not fun. But I do support Wort, in any case. She may be slow, but if she doesn't get removed, they'll get buried with CA.

[junkdiver]

Hey guys, here is a tournament report from the goblins player who took first at Orlando.

http://www.thegameacademyonline.com/2010/03/30/goblins-and-the-5k-a-tournament-report-by-david-sharfman/ (http://www.thegameacademyonline.com/2010/03/30/goblins-and-the-5k-a-tournament-report-by-david-sharfman/)

I went, but didn't play Gobs and scrubbed out early. A number of people were playing a very close list to this one. I know one other guy went 5-2 just barely missing top 16 with a very similar list. Both of them didn't run instigator, ran 4 fetches two duals and a basic and 3 ports. Not sure about the boards.

You can see in the article he had pretty good match ups. Not facing combo pretty much all day if I recall, but obviously a good player to make it that far. There were quite a few goblins players there all in all.

[Nelis]

But there was one thing I wanted to ask about; people are running Wort as a one-of, for an extra source of CA. I was wondering if anyone running Rb Gobs had tried Volrath's Stronghold.

I have before and it works like a charm. But I find it hard to put in my deck nowadays because i want to run 23 lands and I only like it as a 24th land. It also depends on wether I'm playing Instigators or not. If I do then I don't put in Stronghold.

[markbris]

Hey guys, here is a tournament report from the goblins player who took first at Orlando.

http://www.thegameacademyonline.com/2010/03/30/goblins-and-the-5k-a-tournament-report-by-david-sharfman/ (http://www.thegameacademyonline.com/2010/03/30/goblins-and-the-5k-a-tournament-report-by-david-sharfman/)

I went, but didn't play Gobs and scrubbed out early. A number of people were playing a very close list to this one. I know one other guy went 5-2 just barely missing top 16 with a very similar list. Both of them didn't run instigator, ran 4 fetches two duals and a basic and 3 ports. Not sure about the boards.

You can see in the article he had pretty good match ups. Not facing combo pretty much all day if I recall, but obviously a good player to make it that far. There were quite a few goblins players there all in all.

Awesome, I was hoping to read about what he played. I'm planning on taking goblins to SCG 5k Atlanta. My question is now, wtf build do I use? I mean yea he did great with the deck and dominated pretty much, but he didn't play zoo or combo, and somehow being pyschic I guess he puts in 6 lands haters and manages to play lands 3 times and destroy two with blood moon. Also the last two big finishes by goblins might have raised the amount of goblins in the metagame, so do I have to have pyrokinesis in sb? What about 4 Gempalms, Chieftains? I'm lost. I think at Richmond goblins made up 2.5% of the field, at Indy it went up to 3.85%, at Orlando there seems to be more. So should I be figuring in for the mirror? Cuz I don't really like pyrokines except its a house in the mirror.

[Tacosnape]

Awesome, I was hoping to read about what he played. I'm planning on taking goblins to SCG 5k Atlanta. My question is now, wtf build do I use? I mean yea he did great with the deck and dominated pretty much, but he didn't play zoo or combo, and somehow being pyschic I guess he puts in 6 lands haters and manages to play lands 3 times and destroy two with blood moon. Also the last two big finishes by goblins might have raised the amount of goblins in the metagame, so do I have to have pyrokinesis in sb? What about 4 Gempalms, Chieftains? I'm lost. I think at Richmond goblins made up 2.5% of the field, at Indy it went up to 3.85%, at Orlando there seems to be more. So should I be figuring in for the mirror? Cuz I don't really like pyrokines except its a house in the mirror.

Not playing Zoo or Combo and playing 2 Lands decks when he loaded up on Price and Blood Moon is -why- he ended up in a position to win the tournament. It also helped him that the Black deck with Tarmogoyf (I'm assuming this was some variant of Eva Green) didn't land a Plague anywhere. It's not really a psychic thing. It just looks like it in hindsight. Somebody will often overboard for something and luck out on it.

That said, and god forbid I should lose even more reputation for saying it, but Lands is a great deck. He was smart enough to prepare for it using cards that weren't completely dead elsewhere.

[JonBarber]

This is a good example of how its not always the "best" build that wins big events, its the one that got lucky and hit the matchups it was ready for. Congrats to him though, its good to see Goblins winning big events again.

[markbris]

Not playing Zoo or Combo and playing 2 Lands decks when he loaded up on Price and Blood Moon is -why- he ended up in a position to win the tournament. It also helped him that the Black deck with Tarmogoyf (I'm assuming this was some variant of Eva Green) didn't land a Plague anywhere. It's not really a psychic thing. It just looks like it in hindsight. Somebody will often overboard for something and luck out on it.

That said, and god forbid I should lose even more reputation for saying it, but Lands is a great deck. He was smart enough to prepare for it using cards that weren't completely dead elsewhere.

Yea I agree lands is a great deck. The point I was trying to make wasn't that he was psychic or anything pbviously, I was just joking around that yea he randomly boarded up huge for lands and managed to play it 3 times.

[JonBarber]

I really like the idea of using blood moon. It hits zoo pretty hard, kills lands, hurts ad nauseam, probant, dredge, reanimator, and any other deck that plays a majority of duals. Unfortunately its not a goblin. Regardless, what are people's opinions on it? I'm gonna give it some testing this week.

[bakofried]

I've been looking at it too. Seems interesting, though you'd best drop it pre-Pridemage.

[JonBarber]

I've been looking at it too. Seems interesting, though you'd best drop it pre-Pridemage.

True, but I feel like the deck has enough ways to kill the pridemage first

[Ranarion]

Another option would be Magus of the Moon. Even if he could be removed easier, he is a creature which means he can actually kill an opponent (what Blood Moon can't) and can be dropped via Aether Vial.

[JonBarber]

Another option would be Magus of the Moon. Even if he could be removed easier, he is a creature which means he can actually kill an opponent (what Blood Moon can't) and can be dropped via Aether Vial.

I disagree with that. A creature is far easier to be removed than an enchantment. Your opponent will be ready to remove creatures, but an enchantment will catch them off guard. If magus was a goblin, it'd be a different story though.

[markbris]

I disagree with that. A creature is far easier to be removed than an enchantment. Your opponent will be ready to remove creatures, but an enchantment will catch them off guard. If magus was a goblin, it'd be a different story though.

ha if magus was a goblin that'd be sick. I wish gaddock teeg was red and a goblin.....

[kicks_422]

Hell, Goyf would be less notorious if it had Changeling.

[bakofried]

Would you use Blood Moon as a supplement or in place of ANT hate though?

[JonBarber]

Would you use Blood Moon as a supplement or in place of ANT hate though?

Well my current hate was thorns and mb traps. I would take out the thorns but leave in the mb traps. They buy us enough time to drop the blood moon. They are also 100% neccessary to have any fighting chance against belcher

[bakofried]

Agreed there. Would you bring in Pyrokinesis against Belcher, if you run it SB? It could help with Gob tokens.

[kinda]

I would, sometimes they can only make 8-10 tokens.

[Tacosnape]

Yes. You -always- bring in Pyrokinesis against Belcher. Pyrokinesis is the difference between ETW being lethal or ETW leaving you alive.

[bakofried]

Hey, Tacosnape. If you *had* to use Mono-Red gobs, what would it look like? Just curious.

[Nidd]

Hey, Tacosnape. If you *had* to use Mono-Red gobs, what would it look like? Just curious.
I'm also very interested in this question, as I would like to get myself a Goblin deck which I'll upgrade over time as I get access to Duals for Black or Green splashes.

Also, the thread is 216 pages long, is the primer really up-to-date or should I take it with a grain of salt?

[ScatmanX]

That primer is severely outdated.
Nihil asked a while back if someone could wright an updated one, but I guess nobody did...

[kinda]

I'm also very interested in this question, as I would like to get myself a Goblin deck which I'll upgrade over time as I get access to Duals for Black or Green splashes.

Also, the thread is 216 pages long, is the primer really up-to-date or should I take it with a grain of salt?

Green splash? I understand the black splash (and have played it) but the white splash is very good...swords, disenchant (or ray of distortion to dodge cb), orim's chant (vs. combo), tariff (anti prog/reanimator), and burrenton forge tender (decks run firespout...). Actuall,y I'm interested if anyone else who runs the white splash has other tech to consider...

[Nidd]

Green splash? I understand the black splash (and have played it) but the white splash is very good...swords, disenchant (or ray of distortion to dodge cb), orim's chant (vs. combo), tariff (anti prog/reanimator), and burrenton forge tender (decks run firespout...). Actuall,y I'm interested if anyone else who runs the white splash has other tech to consider...
Maybe the G splash is outdated, but I remember some people running Tin-Street Hooligan and K Grip in the SB.

[bakofried]

As far as I know, it's still played. It's a very minor splash when I've seen it, though.

[jrsthethird]

Maybe the G splash is outdated, but I remember some people running Tin-Street Hooligan and K Grip in the SB.

Back before those cards were out, I used to run a single Taiga maindeck and 4 Naturalize and a Forest in the board, everything else was mono-R. I stopped considering the green splash when I saw the cool black goblins in Lorwyn block.

[FoulQ]

That primer is severely outdated.
Nihil asked a while back if someone could wright an updated one, but I guess nobody did...

I did. Around December.

But I guess they decided not to post it.

[P-AiR]

Hey,

Great to see Goblins posting results in the recent major tournaments.

I swear, a year ago in this thread, we were quite disheartened with the lack of tournament results. Well, now we have it.

I wanna take my RB goblins to my local legacy tournament, was wondering if this is a solid SB. I have no idea what to expect in the meta.

These decks have been winning quite a bit in the area so I assume they will show up for sure: Dredge, Canadian Threshold, counter top, and goblins

Sideboard
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Tormod Crypt
2x Blood Moon

Other cards I considered:
3-4x Mindbreak Trap - combo
2x Boartusk Liege - Zoo, mirror, Engineered plague?
4x Mogg Fanatic - I do not maindeck these, however, this card has been on my mind for dredge matchups (to remove their bridges)

Any suggestions on what to include in the 15?

[danielcrocker]

Lately I have been debating if I'm even going to put combo hate in my board. We all agree that traps, chalice, and thorns are the best hate. Usually the the first 3 turns are crucial against combo and I feel that chalice may be the best hate for couple of reasons. First of all you can drop chalice turn one for zero and still drop a lackey/vial or you can drop a lackey/vial turn one then drop chalice turn 2 for the golden number one. The problem I have with thorns and traps is that it is very easy for good players to play around because most play thoughtseize ..duress ... recall.. bounce etc. I'm not saying that chalice isn't affected by the same problems as traps and thorns, I just feel that trap will be discarded before they go off and that chalice for one hurts more than thorns.

[danielcrocker]

Right now my board is looking like this...

4x chalice of the void
4x tormod's crypt
4x pyrokinesis
3x blood moon

[danielcrocker]

P-Air if you are playing r/b I think you should definately play perish, it is just too good at against alot of the meta game

[jrsthethird]

My current RB board:

4 Chalice
3 Relic
3 Perish
3 Blood Moon
2 Crypt

Should I have more combo hate?

[Justin]

I did. Around December.

But I guess they decided not to post it.

So they gave you no feedback on your primer? Goblins does badly need a new primer, and it is a lot of hard work to write one up. If you did a detailed primer, you should at least have gotten some feedback. Even if they felt that your primer was not good enough, at least they could have offered some suggestions for revisions that would help get it up to their standards.

[FoulQ]

So they gave you no feedback on your primer? Goblins does badly need a new primer, and it is a lot of hard work to write one up. If you did a detailed primer, you should at least have gotten some feedback. Even if they felt that your primer was not good enough, at least they could have offered some suggestions for revisions that would help get it up to their standards.

I sent it to them as .docx, he told me to resend it as .doc, I did, and then nothing ever happened after that. He told me he was looking to get all the new primers done in one fell swoop, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Even the primer I wrote is sort of outdated now. It was before Progenitus gained steam, before Iona, before Entomb was unbanned, before combo increased in presence. Hell, my experience against ProBant at that point was very limited. I'm looking at it now and doing some small updates (adding some more to the black splash because it has gotten so much better, basically). But it is still behind the metagame we have now.

The problem with the primer was, I wrote it when I was very into legacy. I've dropped out of magic somewhat recently, so I don't feel like my expertise is the same. I think if we used my old primer as a starting point, we should update it as a community, probably through PM.

I can email my primer to anybody who may be interested. It's an 11 page word doc.

[JonBarber]

I sent it to them as .docx, he told me to resend it as .doc, I did, and then nothing ever happened after that. He told me he was looking to get all the new primers done in one fell swoop, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Even the primer I wrote is sort of outdated now. It was before Progenitus gained steam, before Iona, before Entomb was unbanned, before combo increased in presence. Hell, my experience against ProBant at that point was very limited. I'm looking at it now and doing some small updates (adding some more to the black splash because it has gotten so much better, basically). But it is still behind the metagame we have now.

The problem with the primer was, I wrote it when I was very into legacy. I've dropped out of magic somewhat recently, so I don't feel like my expertise is the same. I think if we used my old primer as a starting point, we should update it as a community, probably through PM.

I can email my primer to anybody who may be interested. It's an 11 page word doc.

I'd be very willing to give it a read and give you my two cents. I've been playing the deck pretty extensively over the last few months.

[bakofried]

Ok, so here's my list, or, at least, what it will be (I'm finally ponying up for Wastes #2+#3).

Lands:
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain
Creatures:
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Instigator
3 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
Artifacts:
4 Aether Vial
Sideboard:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Anarchy
3 Blood Moon
1 Goblin Tinkerer
Things I want to change:
I want to have a more general SB plan. You'll notice I have no GY hate. It's something that I don't miss in my meta (there aren't really any GY based decks - people don't bring them) but I'd like to have it. But I really have no idea as far as cutting goes. I'd also like to have maybe 1-2 more options against Zoo. I actually had a RL match today - it ended in a draw. Was pretty intense, though. Blood Moon helped, I guess I won't know how much, but I actually won G1 without it or Pyrokinesis. I lost game 2, bringing in the Moons and Pyros. I know why I lost G2, though. An active Jitte came up. I really did not enjoy that. So, I might want to move the Tinkerer main.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[kinda]

Your not going to beat combo wth 4 thorn...so that's open slots, :D. Also -1 stingscorger +1 tinkerer is fine.

[bakofried]

I'd also bring in Blood Moon against ANT. If Belcher makes an appearance, I'll switch to traps, but right now, those slots cover two MU's: Storm and Burn.

[Palmik]

Hi guys,
Yesterday I was toying around with my deck and come up with this.
I quite like Wort for the endgame benefits. Also [Wort + Stingscourger] or [Wort + Sharpshooter killing Matron] is not bad either :)
But I'm afraid that 8 one mana drops is not enought :/

NON-LANDS (34 Goblin cards)
4x Aether Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Warchief
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Stingscourger
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Wort, Boggart Auntie
2x Warren Instigator
2x Warren Weirding
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
LANDS
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
10x Mountain

[kinda]

I'd also bring in Blood Moon against ANT. If Belcher makes an appearance, I'll switch to traps, but right now, those slots cover two MU's: Storm and Burn.

This might actually be hard to pull off...but try and find someone who plays ANT and play against them...then post here how you fared...

@ palmik: +4 fetches, you want 12 ways of getting a black source...even if you're only playing 2 weirding. And why only 3 warchief?

[Nelis]

Hi guys,
Yesterday I was toying around with my deck and come up with this.
I quite like Wort for the endgame benefits. Also [Wort + Stingscourger] or [Wort + Sharpshooter killing Matron] is not bad either :)
But I'm afraid that 8 one mana drops is not enought :/

NON-LANDS (34 Goblin cards)
4x Aether Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Warchief
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Stingscourger
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Wort, Boggart Auntie
2x Warren Instigator
2x Warren Weirding
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
LANDS
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
10x Mountain

Personally I would put in a 23rd land. And one Wort is enough especially if you intend it for the endgame. I also think that you have too many random 2 offs. I would try to make a choice which ones are of best use in your metagame.

edit: You could also put in Aunties Hovels

[bakofried]

Is Boartusk Liege any good in the Zoo MU?

[jrsthethird]

Hi guys,
Yesterday I was toying around with my deck and come up with this.
I quite like Wort for the endgame benefits. Also [Wort + Stingscourger] or [Wort + Sharpshooter killing Matron] is not bad either :)
But I'm afraid that 8 one mana drops is not enought :/

NON-LANDS (34 Goblin cards)
4x Aether Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Warchief
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Stingscourger
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Wort, Boggart Auntie
2x Warren Instigator
2x Warren Weirding
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
LANDS
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
10x Mountain

You want 2-3 Rishadan Port.

[junkdiver]

Hey guys,

Against zoo how and what do you bring in? Is thorn of amethyst worth the slots?

Has anyone actually tested boartusk leige and found him to be good in that matchup?

I have suggested chalice at 1 to stop all their removal, but no one seemed to like that idea... Still a bad idea?

Thanks!

[FoulQ]

Hey guys,

Against zoo how and what do you bring in? Is thorn of amethyst worth the slots?

Has anyone actually tested boartusk leige and found him to be good in that matchup?

I have suggested chalice at 1 to stop all their removal, but no one seemed to like that idea... Still a bad idea?

Thanks!

I'll tell you my opinion. I'm running RB, 4 perish, 4 thorn, 4 relic, 2 earwig squad, 1 chieftain as my sideboard. I bring in the 4 perishes and the chieftain for -1 weirding, -2 instigator, -1 SGC (I run 3). In monored I do a similar thing but with pyrokinesis instead of perish (yes, if you don't have specific zoo hate like perish, pyrokinesis is the best for this).

I have tested boartusk liege in the matchup. He was better when people were still running pyroclasm and engineered plagues in their sideboards. Not as good anymore. Still, +1/+1 can have a pretty dramatic effect on the game, and he dodges most of their removal. He is definitely good against zoo, trust me, but maybe not worth the SB space in the current meta. I think a good player who doesn't post in this thread anymore (GreenOne I think?) used to like boartusk liege. But I can't remember.

I think chalice at 1 is still bad. The only non-combo decks I like it against are burn, and tempo threshold if you don't have 4 other nongoblins like relic or perish on the play and if you opponent isn't expecting it (they won't be). It is too slow. The problem is always stuff like t1 nacatl, t2 pridemage, t3 removal spells, not the 1cc stuff after turn 3. A 4of with no filtering like brainstorm/top is not going to reliably come on turn two, and on the draw it's even more atrocious. Yes, I have tested this. I think chalice is terribad against zoo.

[junkdiver]

I'll tell you my opinion. I'm running RB, 4 perish, 4 thorn, 4 relic, 2 earwig squad, 1 chieftain as my sideboard. I bring in the 4 perishes and the chieftain for -1 weirding, -2 instigator, -1 SGC (I run 3). In monored I do a similar thing but with pyrokinesis instead of perish (yes, if you don't have specific zoo hate like perish, pyrokinesis is the best for this).

I have tested boartusk liege in the matchup. He was better when people were still running pyroclasm and engineered plagues in their sideboards. Not as good anymore. Still, +1/+1 can have a pretty dramatic effect on the game, and he dodges most of their removal. He is definitely good against zoo, trust me, but maybe not worth the SB space in the current meta. I think a good player who doesn't post in this thread anymore (GreenOne I think?) used to like boartusk liege. But I can't remember.

I think chalice at 1 is still bad. The only non-combo decks I like it against are burn, and tempo threshold if you don't have 4 other nongoblins like relic or perish on the play and if you opponent isn't expecting it (they won't be). It is too slow. The problem is always stuff like t1 nacatl, t2 pridemage, t3 removal spells, not the 1cc stuff after turn 3. A 4of with no filtering like brainstorm/top is not going to reliably come on turn two, and on the draw it's even more atrocious. Yes, I have tested this. I think chalice is terribad against zoo.

Ok cool, that makes sense. Thanks for the quick, full reply! I honestly have never played against zoo so I couldn't know really if chalice or thorn would be worth it, I am just really thinking about main decking goblins and I know there is some minimal zoo in my meta. I will be playing RB, so hopefully perish will help the matchup be not so unfavorable.

Thanks again!

EDIT: Also how do you feel like your matchup is against dredge with your list?

[ScatmanX]

I played and won agains't Zoo this weekend in a champ.
G1 he starts just to fast, with Nacatl + pridemage + Relicary. I drop to 8, with Vial, 4 lands (2 uncracked fetches) and matron I guess. I stall and stall, but he eventually PoP's me for the win.
G2 I just run him over. 1st turn Vial, 2nd turn 2 lackeys, 3rd turn matron for Stingscourer, Vial Sting to remove blocker. Hit, drop SGC. He didnt had Fallout. Perish next turn preety much sealed the deal.
G2 was funny. I kept a 7 hand of 2 Wastes, Knesis, Perish, SGC, and 2 Matron I guess.
He starts with fetch, Taiga, Lavamancer. I draw and waste. He plays Plains, and pass. I draw Vial! play and pass. He fetches for Forest, and cast Pridemage. I Knesis his both dudes. I then manage to stall a lot, whith Matron for Stingscourer, Wort returning them, etc. In the end I just manage to topdeck better (read Perish) and win.

I played the list that won the 5k, Rb version, with -1 Gempalm, +1 Wort.
Side I changed completly:
2 Boartusk Liege ( Very, very good against zoo. Has a dissinergy with Perish, but you can play around it)
4 Perish
3 Knesis
1 Tinkerer
2 Needle
3 Faerie Macabre

I think this list has a quite good MU against Zoo, because with have shitloads of removals post sb (3 Gempalm, 1 Stingscourer, 3 Weirdings, 4 Perish, 3 Knesis)

[Jayzonious]

May I ask what you take out to put in 7 Non-Goblin cards? (4x Perish, 3x Pyrokinesis)

[kinda]

May I ask what you take out to put in 7 Non-Goblin cards? (4x Perish, 3x Pyrokinesis)

Vial and goblins.

[Avatara]

With mono red I board in:

2/3 x Boartusk Liege (almost always a must 2 for 1)
2 x Anarchy (Hits Lynx, Knight and Pridemage)
2 x Relic of Progenitus (hits Goyf, Knight and Lavamancer)

Amount for each card may vary depending on play/draw.

I think key to winning this match-up is stalling and turning the game around by forcing smart 2 for 1s.

[Jayzonious]

Vial and goblins.

I was looking to have that Sideboard question answered with some reasoning behind it.

[FoulQ]

EDIT: Also how do you feel like your matchup is against dredge with your list?

Dredge is a interesting deck to me, because of this...IF there is gy hate in your sideboard, then your chances against the deck are much more based on player skill than your actual deck. Basically, this skill involves two things,
1)Knowledge of Dredge.....from being a standard player in a legacy event and this random combo killing you to dredge being your primary deck and goblins is just a meta choice, and,
2) Knowledge of your deck's relationship with Dredge.....knowing the relationships between your cards and dredges cards, because every matchup is slightly different for dredge opponent based on their deck (not so much for them).

Dredge players always seem to be very confident in their goblins matchup. If their deck is working, it is basically impossible to win g1 and difficult to win g2/g3. Thankfully, dredge does have consistency issues fairly often, and we don't. This also shows player skill is much more important than deck choice when facing against dredge...just points to that, all I'm saying.

Extirpate is the worst hate, because we have many guys that can die to remove bridges, and keeping a B open all the time can be difficult. Leyline and Planar are one method of attack, and then the artifact haters are the other. And ravenous trap obviously pwns all but is narrow. I prefer the artifact haters (relic/crypt) because of their versatility in a lot of other matchups (for example, bringing in leyline against canadian is really lame...but relic turns me on)

I'm not really very intimate with dredge. I know the basic stuff like everyone, but that won't cut it. This deck is so unique that I'd actually probably ask the dredge players in their forum, because they are the ones who are going to understand the relationship between dredge and goblins better than the goblins player will.

One card I've missed in my builds against dredge is Wort. If the late game comes around, the dredge player will often feel they have inevitability if we can't effectively remove their bridges, so they can stall in the early game and then explode mid game. However, a well-placed Wort will throw off their plans very bad. Only the best dredge players will be able to sense a game-winning Wort on the prowl.

I would just try to think out of the box while you are testing the matchup. Look for very alternative paths of victory instead of conventional means we are used to, because most decks in legacy are boring tempo decks and dredge is not. That is very important. If I were trying to improve the dredge matchup more I'd probably go with finding a method that works for you to think more outside the box.

[kinda]

I was looking to have that Sideboard question answered with some reasoning behind it.

Well I'll answer it this way...what is vial good at...and what's goblins overarching strategy against zoo?

[bakofried]

You take out Vial? What's the reasoning on that? I suppose in Black splash, but in mono-R, untapped Vial at 2 means fun with Scourger.

[kinda]

You take out Vial? What's the reasoning on that? I suppose in Black splash, but in mono-R, untapped Vial at 2 means fun with Scourger.

He asked about the black splash specifically...but yes vial can (and should in g1 regardless of splash) be used defensively. There's a reason merfolk doesn't run their ringleader equivalent.

[ScatmanX]

May I ask what you take out to put in 7 Non-Goblin cards? (4x Perish, 3x Pyrokinesis)

I took out 4 Piledrivers (they kind of suck against zoo), 1 or 2 Ringleaders, 1 or 2 Chieftains.

[Nelis]

Extirpate is the worst hate, because we have many guys that can die to remove bridges, and keeping a B open all the time can be difficult. Leyline and Planar are one method of attack, and then the artifact haters are the other. And ravenous trap obviously pwns all but is narrow. I prefer the artifact haters (relic/crypt) because of their versatility in a lot of other matchups (for example, bringing in leyline against canadian is really lame...but relic turns me on)

In general en especially vs dredge (Cabal Therapy) I more and more prefer a mix of graveyard removal (in any deck I play). It's simply harder to hate. I usually run 1 Crypt, 2 Relics (if removing my own graveyard isn't an issue) and 1 Ravenous Trap .

[kinda]

I took out 4 Piledrivers (they kind of suck against zoo), 1 or 2 Ringleaders, 1 or 2 Chieftains.

Well ringleader and chieftain are two of your best cards against zoo...piledriver is understandable. Against zoo you take the control route and try to smother them in ca...you will not out aggro them...they have enough removal to take care of key threats...like chieftain...

[Hyped]

What does CA stand for?

I would take instigator out against zoo first, as it is too slow to slip past blockers (imo)

[Malchar]

card advantage
you shouldn't take out vial though, it allows you to continue to develop your field while you use your land to destroy their manabase i.e. wasteland and port.

[junkdiver]

Dredge is a interesting deck to me, because of this...IF there is gy hate in your sideboard, then your chances against the deck are much more based on player skill than your actual deck. Basically, this skill involves two things,
1)Knowledge of Dredge.....from being a standard player in a legacy event and this random combo killing you to dredge being your primary deck and goblins is just a meta choice, and,
2) Knowledge of your deck's relationship with Dredge.....knowing the relationships between your cards and dredges cards, because every matchup is slightly different for dredge opponent based on their deck (not so much for them).

Dredge players always seem to be very confident in their goblins matchup. If their deck is working, it is basically impossible to win g1 and difficult to win g2/g3. Thankfully, dredge does have consistency issues fairly often, and we don't. This also shows player skill is much more important than deck choice when facing against dredge...just points to that, all I'm saying.

Extirpate is the worst hate, because we have many guys that can die to remove bridges, and keeping a B open all the time can be difficult. Leyline and Planar are one method of attack, and then the artifact haters are the other. And ravenous trap obviously pwns all but is narrow. I prefer the artifact haters (relic/crypt) because of their versatility in a lot of other matchups (for example, bringing in leyline against canadian is really lame...but relic turns me on)

I'm not really very intimate with dredge. I know the basic stuff like everyone, but that won't cut it. This deck is so unique that I'd actually probably ask the dredge players in their forum, because they are the ones who are going to understand the relationship between dredge and goblins better than the goblins player will.

One card I've missed in my builds against dredge is Wort. If the late game comes around, the dredge player will often feel they have inevitability if we can't effectively remove their bridges, so they can stall in the early game and then explode mid game. However, a well-placed Wort will throw off their plans very bad. Only the best dredge players will be able to sense a game-winning Wort on the prowl.

I would just try to think out of the box while you are testing the matchup. Look for very alternative paths of victory instead of conventional means we are used to, because most decks in legacy are boring tempo decks and dredge is not. That is very important. If I were trying to improve the dredge matchup more I'd probably go with finding a method that works for you to think more outside the box.

Thanks for the responses foul Q it is much appreciated! My main deck is dredge, I just have never played against Gobs. Generally aggro is pretty easy unless their d00ds have sacrifice effects like Mogg fanatic, which seriously cut down on zombie production. Otherwise it can be pretty good. I will say that leyline is much worse to see than artifact hate. Ancient grudge makes artifact hate not that big a deal, you really can play around that. Leyline is a beast though. Also a side note, my friend who plays thresh says he rarely wins when his opponent starts with a leyline in play. Just my thoughts, and of course thresh has a lot of different builds (I think he is standard canadian) so I am not sure if this is always true.

Can you explain how you would use Wort against dredge? What can you recur that is so nasty? I am sorry if this is obvious I have not played many games with Gobs so I don't know.

I am finally getting some badlands, and if I don't like instigator eventually I will get some ports, and hopefully put some of your advise to good use. Thanks, the info against both Zoo and Dredge is appreciated!

[kinda]

card advantage
you shouldn't take out vial though, it allows you to continue to develop your field while you use your land to destroy their manabase i.e. wasteland and port.

A normal Rb goblins build runs 30 goblins md (+22 land, 4 weirding, 4 vial)...now if you take out 7 goblins for 4 perish/3 pyrokinesis (personally I don't like pyrokinesis due to this problem)...you only have 23 goblin creatures...that's not enough...it is for merfolk but they don't run ringleader/lackey. Also, zoo only needs 2 land to function and over half the time you won't even get vial in your opener.

[from Cairo]

I think taking out 4 Piledriver and maybe a Ringleader too since the number of Goblins is decreasing it's losing some potency anyway is reasonable. With 5 slots one can bring in 3-4 Perish and 1-2 Pyrokenesis, which seems fine. I don't think cutting Vials or Chieftains for Pyrokenesis is a worthwhile move, you're already going to have a ton of removal in 4 Weirding, 3-4 Perish, 1-2 Gempalm and 1-2 Kenesis. Vials really push you ahead in the mid-late game which is generally the game plan if you're playing the control role against Zoo. Chieftains another solid threat, maintains potency as a top deck, and can sometimes catch openings for large swings in the early-mid game if Zoo is being the aggressor.

[overpowered]

From what I've seen / tested:

Using Wort against dredge: picking up a stingscourger/ incinerator/ sgc or even the occasional matron each turn is hard to fight. Since they run little (if any) removal, SGC can produce a ton of goblins, sacrificing some to remove their bridges, he becomes a nightmare for them on the other side of the board. Incinerator/sgc just means you leave 2 mana untapped for the rest of the game since their combo resolves on their turn pre-combat main phase. Hell, I've cycled turn 2 incinerator on my own lackey to slow down (and eventually win) several games. This is a hard match though. I run crypt over relic in the board so I don't lose tempo, but that's a personal and meta choice.

I'm not sure as to others' opinion on all of this, but that's what I've found so far in testing with this deck. Hope this helped!

[jrsthethird]

A normal Rb goblins build runs 30 goblins md (+22 land, 4 weirding, 4 vial)...now if you take out 7 goblins for 4 perish/3 pyrokinesis (personally I don't like pyrokinesis due to this problem)...you only have 23 goblin creatures...that's not enough...it is for merfolk but they don't run ringleader/lackey. Also, zoo only needs 2 land to function and over half the time you won't even get vial in your opener.

Ringleader will still hit Warren Weirding, which is good against Zoo (except for pumping Goyf).

[JonBarber]

I don't recommend taking out ringleader, ever. He's what makes this deck so powerful. In your example, you still have 27 goblins md, so almost 50% chance of goblins is still pretty damn good.

I run Leyline because it is SO good against graveyard based decks. Its easy to say "dredge has bounce effects" but in playtesting, a mull to leyline is a near guaranteed win against them. Not to mention, its also spectacular against reanimator and prevents them from turn 1ing you g2/g3. Its true that its weaker against decks like thresh, but I'm iffy as it is bringing in gy hate against them anyways.

[TheSleeper]

Hi all. I've spent the last 2 days reading the last 50 pages of this thread. Phew!

Is the following a pretty standard FoulQ-type Mono-Red list? I never realised this deck was so tight! I know he had a tourney report where he posted a list, but seemed like a few cards were missing due to availability or something. Haven't seen a mono-red posted lately with the 23-land base so yeah - did I miss anything?

4 Vial
4 Lackey
3 Instigator
4 Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm
4 Matron
4 Warchief
2 Chieftan
4 Ringleader
3 SGC

17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Port

SB as Meta requires.

[Nelis]

I run Leyline because it is SO good against graveyard based decks. Its easy to say "dredge has bounce effects" but in playtesting, a mull to leyline is a near guaranteed win against them. Not to mention, its also spectacular against reanimator and prevents them from turn 1ing you g2/g3. Its true that its weaker against decks like thresh, but I'm iffy as it is bringing in gy hate against them anyways.

Decks like thresh and others that have a minimal usage of their graveyard are the reason I prefer running non leyline Graveyard hate. That way you can put in like 2 graveyard removal instead of 4. Do you ever board in 2 Leylines for instance? Because this has always kept me from obtaining and running Leylines.

[from Cairo]

Is the following a pretty standard FoulQ-type Mono-Red list? I never realised this deck was so tight! I know he had a tourney report where he posted a list, but seemed like a few cards were missing due to availability or something. Haven't seen a mono-red posted lately with the 23-land base so yeah - did I miss anything?


Your list looks good for a mixed/unknown meta. If you find there to be alot of agro I'd probably drop Warren Instigator in favor of Mogg War Marshall or to fill out the Gempalm and Chieftain slots. By the same token if you find there to be a disproportionate amount of control or combo, I could see going 4 Warren Instigator and dropping a Stingscourger.

SB I'd suggest:
3-4 Pyrokenesis
3-4 Relic/Crypt/Rav Trap/Faerie McCabre
3-4 Chalice/Thorn/MB Trap
2-3 Blood Moon
0-2 Pithing Needle

[markbris]

I don't recommend taking out ringleader, ever. He's what makes this deck so powerful. In your example, you still have 27 goblins md, so almost 50% chance of goblins is still pretty damn good.

I run Leyline because it is SO good against graveyard based decks. Its easy to say "dredge has bounce effects" but in playtesting, a mull to leyline is a near guaranteed win against them. Not to mention, its also spectacular against reanimator and prevents them from turn 1ing you g2/g3. Its true that its weaker against decks like thresh, but I'm iffy as it is bringing in gy hate against them anyways.

I like all of these thoughts. I run 4 leyline cuz its redic against dredge and reanimator. I wouldn't bring it in against thresh, not worth it really imo.

[(nameless one)]

Hi all. I've spent the last 2 days reading the last 50 pages of this thread. Phew!

Is the following a pretty standard FoulQ-type Mono-Red list? I never realised this deck was so tight! I know he had a tourney report where he posted a list, but seemed like a few cards were missing due to availability or something. Haven't seen a mono-red posted lately with the 23-land base so yeah - did I miss anything?

4 Vial
4 Lackey
3 Instigator
4 Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm
4 Matron
4 Warchief
2 Chieftan
4 Ringleader
3 SGC

17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Port

SB as Meta requires.

Your list is pretty much the standard Goblin list. My list is almost similar, the difference being: -1 Piledriver, -1 Warchief, -1 Mountain, +1 Incinerator, +1 Chieftain, +1 Rishadan Port.

[Palmik]

A normal Rb goblins build runs 30 goblins md (+22 land, 4 weirding, 4 vial)...
I'm not really sure about this, since I think that Gempalm is better MD than Weirding (the reason becomes obvious when your opponent does not have much creatures, or much creatures that should worry you - then Weirding is almost dead card but on the other hand, Gempalm gives you at least some card advantage). But I have to admit, that sometimes, Weirding is irreplacable... it's also true, that you can do some awesome tricks with [Weirding + Wort] (but then again, you can do even more awesome trick with [Gempalm + Wort]).

Btw, I updated my deck again after learning from few advices here (Thanks for them :))
I included some notes

NON-LANDS (34 Goblin cards)
// (Following 20 cards are in my opinion core which should not be changed unless siding)
4x Aether Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader

3x Goblin Warchief // (Would run 4x, do not know what to remove)
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Warren Weirding // (Or would be 2x Gempalm Incinerator + 3x Warren Weirding, probably depends on the meta)
2x Stingscourger // (I just love [Wort + Stingscourger]
2x Wort, Boggart Auntie // (1x Wort, Boggart Auntie might be enough, but what about someone countering or killing your 1st Wort? :P)
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Warren Instigator
1x Goblin Chieftain // (Is 1x enought? What factors should I consider?)
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

LANDS (22 Land cards)
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Arid Mesa
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port // (Maybe 2x would be enough, I'm worried that I will suffer from colorless mana a lot)
5x Mountain // (I was thinking about 4x Mountain + 1x Swamp instead, because of Wasteland)

[FoulQ]

Hi all. I've spent the last 2 days reading the last 50 pages of this thread. Phew!

Is the following a pretty standard FoulQ-type Mono-Red list? I never realised this deck was so tight! I know he had a tourney report where he posted a list, but seemed like a few cards were missing due to availability or something. Haven't seen a mono-red posted lately with the 23-land base so yeah - did I miss anything?

*list*

I prefer RB in the current metagame. My oldest MonoR list was the same as yours except -1 Piledriver, -1 Chieftain, +1 Instigator, +1 Stingscourger. And no, I didn't put instigator in because of a combo presence, I put him in because I think he's awesome. And I switched over to 3 piledrivers awhile ago and have preferred it since.




Btw, I updated my deck again after learning from few advices here (Thanks for them :))
I included some notes

*list*

Your first problem is you are only running 3 warchief. I see plenty of things you could cut, namely sharpshooter or the second wort. Warchief definitely outclasses both and I don't think you are really running quite the same deck without 4. He gives the deck it's "sprinting" capabilities and allows us to mold and change our strategies instantly, unlike other legacy decks which boringly rely on gradual tempo gains like stifling fetches and dazing shit and so forth.

And IMO Port is not worth it in RB. I really enjoy nailing down my manabases to perfection. After a lot of testing, I think this is the best manabase for RB (22 lands):
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
3 Auntie's Hovel
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
6 Mountain

I don't think 4 hovels are necessary, you usually have more than enough with 4 badlands and 4 hovels along with 4 fetches. I have found 3 hovels to be the best number, and it can still get wasted a decent amount of times to make this important.

[Hyped]

Is it normal to remove some wastelands / ports when putting in instigator or other RR cards?

[Palmik]

Your first problem is you are only running 3 warchief. I see plenty of things you could cut, namely sharpshooter or the second wort. Warchief definitely outclasses both and I don't think you are really running quite the same deck without 4. He gives the deck it's "sprinting" capabilities and allows us to mold and change our strategies instantly, unlike other legacy decks which boringly rely on gradual tempo gains like stifling fetches and dazing shit and so forth.

And IMO Port is not worth it in RB. I really enjoy nailing down my manabases to perfection. After a lot of testing, I think this is the best manabase for RB (22 lands):
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
3 Auntie's Hovel
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
6 Mountain

I don't think 4 hovels are necessary, you usually have more than enough with 4 badlands and 4 hovels along with 4 fetches. I have found 3 hovels to be the best number, and it can still get wasted a decent amount of times to make this important.
Hi, thanks for your lightningfast reply :)
I will probably cut sharpshooter then and give Auntie's Hovel a try :)

[JonBarber]

I prefer RB in the current metagame. My oldest MonoR list was the same as yours except -1 Piledriver, -1 Chieftain, +1 Instigator, +1 Stingscourger. And no, I didn't put instigator in because of a combo presence, I put him in because I think he's awesome. And I switched over to 3 piledrivers awhile ago and have preferred it since.





Your first problem is you are only running 3 warchief. I see plenty of things you could cut, namely sharpshooter or the second wort. Warchief definitely outclasses both and I don't think you are really running quite the same deck without 4. He gives the deck it's "sprinting" capabilities and allows us to mold and change our strategies instantly, unlike other legacy decks which boringly rely on gradual tempo gains like stifling fetches and dazing shit and so forth.

And IMO Port is not worth it in RB. I really enjoy nailing down my manabases to perfection. After a lot of testing, I think this is the best manabase for RB (22 lands):
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
3 Auntie's Hovel
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
6 Mountain

I don't think 4 hovels are necessary, you usually have more than enough with 4 badlands and 4 hovels along with 4 fetches. I have found 3 hovels to be the best number, and it can still get wasted a decent amount of times to make this important.

Interesting cutting port... I think I still like having one or two sitting around. Personally, i'd cut the hovels and put in more fetches and ports.

[FoulQ]

Interesting cutting port... I think I still like having one or two sitting around. Personally, i'd cut the hovels and put in more fetches and ports.

Eh, people were cutting port long before I did. I prefer an extremely reliable t2 instigator or t2 black source for weirding than rishadan ports in the current metagame. Most of the matchups where rishadan port is good are already good matchups, except for questionably combo. Landstill used to be an unfavorable matchup made much better by port, but it is no longer a DtW/B. In addition, control decks in general (random UGx piles, random BGW piles, etc) have become much less common. And port's ability to shut down black in matchups where people with black splashes play plague (the most common occurence of plague, in my opinion, over monoblack or primary black decks) is no longer really necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I love port. But my ports are hibernating for now.

And I can tell you that hovel is definitely worth testing, if you haven't yet. One thing I feel confident about is my manabase construction, at least for this deck, and I really like the one I posted.

[bakofried]

Will this get any love? Mostly I'm confused, but it could be decent.

Tuktuk the Explorer 2R
Legendary Creature - Goblin
When Tuktuk the Explorer is put into a GY from play, put a colorless 5/5 artifact creature goblin totem token into play named Tuktuk the Returned
1/1

This isn't the exact templating, but you get the gist.

[Arsenal]

He has haste too. Not too bad, but the 3cc slot is getting superstuffed.

[overpowered]

I could see it. It'd be a nice surprise blocker coming off of vial. Or even (heaven forbid) weirding yourself. Though a 3 CC 1/1 with no "come into play" effect, and very little to offer the game state when uncontested, seems kind of underwhelming. He'd be tricksy, but I can see the cool factor being dangerous on this card. I'll try some testing soon.

[jrsthethird]

Will this get any love? Mostly I'm confused, but it could be decent.

Tuktuk the Explorer 2R
Legendary Creature - Goblin
When Tuktuk the Explorer is put into a GY from play, put a colorless 5/5 artifact creature goblin totem token into play named Tuktuk the Returned
1/1

This isn't the exact templating, but you get the gist.

Yes he is awesome. Side him out vs. combo and shit but this is like 5x better than War Marshal in the aggro matchups.

Run Frogtosser in RB and it frees up the 3cc spot.

[sligh16]

Or in the lists running skirk prospector for the combo, he could be a good 5/5 for 3 mana, still counting as a goblin :wink:.

[kicks_422]

No. There's already too much going on in the 3cc slot. I wouldn't cut any of those for this, nor would I cut any of the lesser cc Goblins.

[kinda]

No. There's already too much going on in the 3cc slot. I wouldn't cut any of those for this, nor would I cut any of the lesser cc Goblins.

Agreed, vial at 3 with him and matron would be lots of fun...but he's just not as good as warchief, matron, or chieftain...and the deck's already light on 2 drops...

[BKclassic]

Agreed, vial at 3 with him and matron would be lots of fun...but he's just not as good as warchief, matron, or chieftain...and the deck's already light on 2 drops...

I don't know what to say, this seems like the perfect card for Goblins. It does so many things, like being great against Zoo, Control, is a legitimate mono red answer to Tarmogoyf, and a maindeck featuring Tuk Tuk and Chieftain is probably enough to invalidate Enigeered Plague as an effective sideboard strategy against Goblins.

Admittedly, Goblin decks will have to look different, but I think they will definitely be stronger with this card. I would start with a core base of cards and fill in the rest.

Base:
22 Lands

Spells (24)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator

So that's 46 cards, leaving 14 open slots. I think I would do-

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Instigator
1 Tuk Tuk the Explorer
1 Mountain
2 Stingscourger/Mogg Fanatic/War Marshall/Chieftain/Siege-gang + Mountain/??

[MEATROCKET]

Gonna Goblin Grenade this bitch all day.

[JonBarber]

I don't know what to say, this seems like the perfect card for Goblins. It does so many things, like being great against Zoo, Control, is a legitimate mono red answer to Tarmogoyf, and a maindeck featuring Tuk Tuk and Chieftain is probably enough to invalidate Enigeered Plague is an effective sideboard strategy.

Admittedly, Goblin decks will have to look different, but I think they will definitely be stronger with this card.

Tuk Tuk is far from the perfect card for goblins. If skull clamp was still legal, bidding was still played, and r/b goblins was an entirely different deck, yes, this would be a great card. But the deck is no longer built like that. Tuk Tuk doesn't conform to the current strategy of spitting relentless goblins at your oppenent. It doesn't provide the sort of CA that ringleader/matron does, doesn't contribute to the speed of the deck like lackey/warchief/chieftan does, doesn't do significant beatdown like piledriver, and doesn't remove your opponent's threats like weirding/incinerator/sting-scourger do. Tuk Tuk does not significantly improve any of these strategies. If you disagree with me your welcome to play him. I just don't think hes worth a slot in the deck.

[kinda]

I don't know what to say, this seems like the perfect card for Goblins. It does so many things, like being great against Zoo, Control, is a legitimate mono red answer to Tarmogoyf, and a maindeck featuring Tuk Tuk and Chieftain is probably enough to invalidate Enigeered Plague is an effective sideboard strategy.

Admittedly, Goblin decks will have to look different, but I think they will definitely be stronger with this card. I would start with a core base of cards and fill in the rest.

Base:
22 Lands

Spells (24)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator

So that's 46 cards, leaving 14 open slots. I think I would do-

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Instigator
1 Tuk Tuk the Explorer
1 Mountain
2 Stingscourger/Mogg Fanatic/War Marshall/Chieftain/Siege-gang + Mountain/??

Your list confuses me...for starters I'd either run 4 or none, that maximizes the chances of them killing each other. Which brings me to my main concern...so many decks that goblins needs to put pressure on can simply ignore him: ant, belcher, dream halls, any painter grindstone deck, dutch stax, reanimator,iona survival, natural order progenitus, and to an extent anything featuring countertop. If I had to...I'd probably go mono red and run four of these alongside goblin grenade like meatrocket suggested. Also, sgc and ringleader are still superior tutor targets...even against zoo due to path, the exception possibly being if you have one on the table and need to legend it.

[JonBarber]

Your list confuses me...for starters I'd either run 4 or none, that maximizes the chances of them killing each other. Which brings me to my main concern...so many decks that goblins needs to put pressure on can simply ignore him: ant, belcher, dream halls, any painter grindstone deck, stax, reanimator,iona survival, natural order progenitus, and to an extent anything featuring countertop. If I had to...I'd probably go mono red and run four of these alongside goblin grenade like meatrocket suggested. Also, sgc and ringleader are still superior tutor targets...even against zoo due to path.

At which point you are then playing a much different deck, one that is much shittier without skull clamp. So the moral of the story is: this guy is bad. Don't play him.

[BKclassic]

Your list confuses me...for starters I'd either run 4 or none, that maximizes the chances of them killing each other. Which brings me to my main concern...so many decks that goblins needs to put pressure on can simply ignore him: ant, belcher, dream halls, any painter grindstone deck, stax, reanimator,iona survival, natural order progenitus, and to an extent anything featuring countertop. If I had to...I'd probably go mono red and run four of these alongside goblin grenade like meatrocket suggested.

Firstly, I'll do a combined list:

22 Lands
4 Lacky
4 Instigator
4 Piledriver
2 Stingscourger
4 Tuk Tuk
4 Matron
4 Incinerator
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
2 Siege-gang
4 Vial

Secondly, the token it makes is a legend, also, so playing two at once so the destroy each other is still useless.

Thirdly, by making Aggro match ups better, you can devote more SB slots to beating those combo decks. Also, my list isn't really missing any of the Goblins that would turn those match ups around. I am only really replacing Goblin Chieftain in most lists.

Fourthly, Seige-Gang and Ringleader are better Matron targets, but forcing them to use Path on this guy is helpful because it means they won't be Pathing your Piledrivers and Instigators, or you will have 5/5 chilling against them.

Fifthly, having a deck 4 Tuk Tuk, 4 War Marshall and 4 Goblin Grenade would sounds kind of interesting, though probably not that great.

[ScatmanX]

He also makes Cabal Therapy much better on the SB.
And goblin Grenade.
What else could we use to sac him?
Prospector? Sharpshooter?
I'd defnetly run the Frogtosser build if I were to run this guy.

and please... "No. nuff said." and "this guy is bad. Don't play him" is such a child thing. I've heard people said that about Frogtosser, Earwig Squad, Warren Weirdings, Wort, Lightning Crafter, Warren Instigator... though they are not always included in decks, they're certanly options.

[BKclassic]

He also makes Cabal Therapy much better on the SB.
And goblin Grenade.
What else could we use to sac him?
Prospector? Sharpshooter?
I'd defnetly run the Frogtosser build if I were to run this guy.

and please... "No. nuff said." and "this guy is bad. Don't play him" is such a child thing. I've heard people said that about Frogtosser, Earwig Squad, Warren Weirdings, Wort, Lightning Crafter, Warren Instigator... though they are not always included in decks, they're certanly options.

Saccing it to your own Warren Wierding would be okay.

[kinda]

Saccing it to your own Warren Wierding would be okay.

No it's not...that's a five mana two card combo to get a legendary vanilla 5/5.

[ScatmanX]

No it's not...that's a five mana two card combo to get a legendary 5/5. If you want a two card combo to get a big creature try entomb+reanimate...oh and it's three less mana.

You also get 2 1/1 Goblin tokens. And all the cards involved are goblins, unlike entomb and reanimate. And we already play Warren Weirdings in Rb goblins. And, we don't HAVE to do that play, it's just an option. And, those cards have uses by themselves in goblins, unlike entomb (reanimate would, but is not a goblin, etc, etc, etc...) And TukTuk can be vialed into the battlefield. And they both cost less with Frogtosser or Warchief in play.

While whriting this I realised that, with Chieftain in play, you'd get a 6/6 and 2 2/2. That looks cool.

[(nameless one)]

No it's not...that's a five mana two card combo to get a legendary vanilla 5/5.

not to mention its a 2-card thing.

[RogueMTG]

not to mention its a 2-card thing.

Except that he did mention it...

[(nameless one)]

LOL totally missed it...

On the other hand, hes not that bad in Goblins. I see him as 1 or 2 of in mono-red lists. He does help against other aggro-matchups such as Zoo.

[bakofried]

Only testing will tell. How about that? We can theorycraft all day, but that won't get us anywhere.

[overpowered]

The biggest concern that I'd like to voice with the 2 card combo is that it's entirely situational but undeniably good IF you've somehow managed to get to turn 4 or 5 against a deck that runs so few creatures that you've cast weirding on yourself instead of your opponent...

All kidding aside, it could be cool, but I can see drawing it instead of a chieftain/matron and being mad that it doesn't do enough-- eg. You bash into blockers and they just take 1 damage instead of give you a 5/5. If you're at the point where 1 damage will finish the game so they MUST block it... a matron or a warchief would probably be just as effective, if not more so. He's good to sac to SGC, no doubt, but that's tough to get on the board, and it only nets you a 5/5 which is not "strictly" better than Mogg War Marshall for tempo.

Your heavy hitters tend to not be 2 card combos... That being said, I think that ultimately, this card adds very little to the strategic design of goblins. While he adds significantly more to Rb (thanks to having haste. That's something that things dropped off Banneret lack, and the reason I don't run him in my Rb...) I think that he doesn't change the game state drastically enough by adding a twenty turn clock, and therefore should not be run.

But he IS an option, which I think is the determining factor. If you run goblins in an aggro-heavy meta, he might prove himself useful. As someone mentioned earlier, cards like these, while not "staple" add options for us to pursue. They add decks to test and theories to be proven. Though I'll remain staunch on my opinion that this card shouldn't appear in a top 8.

[Jayzonious]

I'd run Boartusk Liege over Tuk Tuk. Seems pretty terrible, but I could be wrong...

[Mystical_Jackass]

Not bad. Goblins finally getting some muscle to face goyf; looks like a great way to stall big creature decks till you get your CA going, could be a desc SB.

[JonBarber]

Not bad. Goblins finally getting some muscle to face goyf; looks like a great way to stall big creature decks till you get your CA going, could be a desc SB.

You can get your CA going turn 2 with a hit from lackey. Not to mention, tuk tuk costs 3. You can just hardcast ringleader next turn. If you want muscle, play goblin goon. I would prefer to drop a t3 matron/chieftan/warchief any day over tuk tuk. They are just going to StP/path him all day long. In an extremely zoo/aggro heavy meta, he could be worth it (but in that case why are you playing goblins??). But I certainly wouldn't say he's a "great card" for Goblins as a whole.

[Ch@os]

"Tuk tuk" is useful against hate people bring in like Pyroclasm or Firespout.
They cast Firespout to clear the board and the Gobboplayer gets a 5/5 dude XD

[Mystical_Jackass]

You can get your CA going turn 2 with a hit from lackey. Not to mention, tuk tuk costs 3. You can just hardcast ringleader next turn. If you want muscle, play goblin goon.

Yes, assuming you open with lackey, that is true... but how did anything I said conflict with Lackey--did I say, don't use lackey.. use him? I said "looks like a great way to stall big creature decks...could be a desc SB"

And goblin goon is a pretty bad card in comparison. Its drawback is pretty bad and wouldnt ever fit with vial imo.


They are just going to StP/path him all day long.

If they run white removal, they might remove it and that sucks. If I play a confidant, if they sword it its gone too. I see what your saying, but its just very generalized argument about just about anything that doesn't have comes into play.


But I certainly wouldn't say he's a "great card" for Goblins as a whole

I didn't say that, I said great stall card at best.. maybe SB, not for goblins as a whole. :wink:

@Chaos

That's a good point with Pyroclasm. Didn't think of that.

[ScatmanX]

And very good agains't Agroo Loam too.
That said, I didn't like him in any build i've tried yet. Goblins is a thiter deck than it seems.

[FoulQ]

I believe you are all looking at this wrongly.

It seems to be that the general opinion is that Tuk Tuk is an efficient, if conditional, creature. A 5/5 for 2R a lot of the time, with major stalling applications.

However, I don't think we should look to this deck as "efficient." We will be outclassed by real legacy decks. I realized this long ago: I kept feeling like every match was an uphill battle against goyfs and mongeese (back when he was everywhere too). It's when you stop worrying about efficiency in your cards and look at the more abstract concept of the "goblin engine." Tuk Tuk has no place in the engine, and I think he will be reserved for potential sideboard, but even then he's kind of slow. An addition to the engine requires a card that naturally fits into it: warren instigator, since the deck is naturally built to cheat guys into play because we had already been playing lackey and vial. Weirding, because the engine's problem was one big wall fucking our plans. Tuk tuk, for what? Stingscourger is better at stalling. Piledriver is better at muscle. Weirding is better at goyfkilling.

I'm not going to write off this card completely, because that is a dumb thing to do. In fact, I have no idea what will happen with this card. But my core instincts that I have developed playing the deck make me think he doesn't really have a place, although I do really like the card design (a creative use of the legend rule, to say the least).

[bakofried]

I see him as a replacement for Mogg War Marshall, not as the reigning champion of goblins.

Also:
How is Goblin Chieftain vs. Zoo? Right now I'm running a 3/3 split with Warchief, but I'm considering upping Warchief to 4, cutting the remaining chieftains, and throwing in a Boartusk Liege as well as a Goblin Tinkerer.

[ScatmanX]

Chieftain is good agains't Zoo. But Liege is better. But agains't most other decks, Chieftains are better. So I'd run Ftains MD, and Liege SB (if you really want them)
Warchief should be a 4 off, so please add 1 more.
Tinkerer is SB material, but depending on your meta, 1 MD is completly ok.

[Hyped]

Since goblins seems to sideboard frequently Is there any merit to running burning wish main?

Available for wish are
Perish
Anarchy
Shattering spree
Cabal Therapy / Duress / Thoughtseize
...Maybe even move Warren Weirding to SB in this case to create the room?

The disadvantages being Burning Wish is not a goblin, and you will still need to SB graveyard hate and other matchups.

[jrsthethird]

Since goblins seems to sideboard frequently Is there any merit to running burning wish main?

Available for wish are
Perish
Anarchy
Shattering spree
Cabal Therapy / Duress / Thoughtseize
...Maybe even move Warren Weirding to SB in this case to create the room?

The disadvantages being Burning Wish is not a goblin, and you will still need to SB graveyard hate and other matchups.

You could opt for Cranial Extraction, Decompose, Haunting Echoes, Rats' Feast, or Thought Hemorrhage.

Not like they're good ideas, but options nonetheless.

[kinda]

Since goblins seems to sideboard frequently Is there any merit to running burning wish main?

Available for wish are
Perish
Anarchy
Shattering spree
Cabal Therapy / Duress / Thoughtseize
...Maybe even move Warren Weirding to SB in this case to create the room?

The disadvantages being Burning Wish is not a goblin, and you will still need to SB graveyard hate and other matchups.

You want a patriarch's bidding in there.

[Hyped]

You want a patriarch's bidding in there.

I never understood how patriarch's bidding gets around engineered plague, when they return they'd just be killed again? o_O


You could opt for Cranial Extraction, Decompose, Haunting Echoes, Rats' Feast, or Thought Hemorrhage.

Not like they're good ideas, but options nonetheless.

You have extensive GY hate knowledge, ty.

[bakofried]

Here's the list I should be running tonight:
Lands:
Wasteland x2 (Should be fixed soon)
Rishadan Port x2
Mountain x18
Creatures:
Siege-Gang Commander x3
Goblin Ringleader x4
Goblin Matron x4
Goblin Warchief x4
Gempalm Incinerator x3
Warren Instigator x4
Goblin Piledriver x4
Stingscourger x3
Goblin Tinkerer x1
Goblin Lackey x4
Artifacts:
Aether Vial x4
Sideboard:
Pyrokinesis x4
Thorn of Amethyst x4
Anarchy x3
Blood Moon x3
Open Slot x1
What do you think? I don't know what to put in the open slot, also, should I board in Blood Moon for Zoo, on top of Pyrokinesis? Or should I just board in 1 or the other?

[ScatmanX]

I never understood how patriarch's bidding gets around engineered plague, when they return they'd just be killed again? o_O

If you have 1 or 2 Chieftains / Mad Aunties / King / Liege in your yard, all your dudes will get bigger, so they won't day, since every goblin enter the battlefield the same time.

@bakofried: deck looks nice.
You should only add Moon if the zoo list you playing uses few basics. The last one I playied agains't used PoP and like, 5-6 basics, so Moons would have sucked.

[bakofried]

As far as I know, it's fairly basic-lite. Last match, favorite part was hitting a Blood Moon while he had a KotR on the field (1 basic forest). My follow-up? Stingscourger the Knight. He was not happy(EDIT due to unfortunate choice of words). Unfortunately, he landed Jitte and proceeded to rape my face.
Well, I got first, but the only tough match was against a U/W control list with Painter's Grindstone in the main FTW, and Baneslayer in the side. I went 2-1 officially, but I did that just for to help him with Tiebreakers (I was already secured for first, and had won 2-0) I fought through recursive Engineered Explosives (ala Academy Ruins) and a Baneslayer, as well as a set-up CounterTop Engine. Goblin Matron was king here, and the singleton Tinkerer helped, even though it was immediately Pithing Needled.

[ThalesCG]

Hey there, I'm new here hehe, but have been looking this thread for many months.

Btw, what do you guys think about David Sharfman's Goblins RB? Actually, I've read his artcile but didn't find any mention about why taking out or not even considering put Warren Instigator. Another curious thing is the mana base, including Ports (which FoulQ says that dont fit the ideal mana base).

Btw2: What do you guys think about Thorn of Amethyst? It's a sb for combo purpouses, right? Isn't it a little bit slow if compared with the U trap?

cya :D

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Hi all. I've spent the last 2 days reading the last 50 pages of this thread. Phew!

Is the following a pretty standard FoulQ-type Mono-Red list? I never realised this deck was so tight! I know he had a tourney report where he posted a list, but seemed like a few cards were missing due to availability or something. Haven't seen a mono-red posted lately with the 23-land base so yeah - did I miss anything?

4 Vial
4 Lackey
3 Instigator
4 Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm
4 Matron
4 Warchief
2 Chieftan
4 Ringleader
3 SGC

17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Port

SB as Meta requires.
My current list is -1 sgc (rarely want to see him on my opening hand or even run into 2 of them the same game) -2 port (i think port is just win more) +1 mountain + 1 chieftain (extremely good with instigator and very good vs aggro) +1 instigator (he's a very good turn 2 drop, he has to be answered because of matron+sgc threat)
I won't ever cut piledriver because he is the best beater we have. He will always kill a creature, get removal or deal a lot of damage and he can win a game when surprising with haste.

[bakofried]

Oh, quick note. I managed to do a little scouting prior to the tournament, so I swapped Anarchy, along with the open slot, for 4 Pithing Needles.

[Zay]

Hey there, I'm new here hehe, but have been looking this thread for many months.

Btw, what do you guys think about David Sharfman's Goblins RB? Actually, I've read his artcile but didn't find any mention about why taking out or not even considering put Warren Instigator. Another curious thing is the mana base, including Ports (which FoulQ says that dont fit the ideal mana base).

Btw2: What do you guys think about Thorn of Amethyst? It's a sb for combo purpouses, right? Isn't it a little bit slow if compared with the U trap?

cya :D

You can't dispute David Sharfman's success and most goblin decks are just differ and few cards it is a over all good build.

The problem I have with Rishadan Port is, Rishadan Port up my hands I have to throw back due to lack of red mana.

I have never had much luck with the Mindbreak Trap, ANT has almost always had answers for it Duress, Chant etc, I have had better success with Mindbreak Trap against Belcher.

-Zay

[overpowered]

Hey there, I'm new here hehe, but have been looking this thread for many months.

Btw, what do you guys think about David Sharfman's Goblins RB? Actually, I've read his artcile but didn't find any mention about why taking out or not even considering put Warren Instigator. Another curious thing is the mana base, including Ports (which FoulQ says that dont fit the ideal mana base).

Btw2: What do you guys think about Thorn of Amethyst? It's a sb for combo purpouses, right? Isn't it a little bit slow if compared with the U trap?

cya :D

Sharfman's build is interesting, but I don't have a heck of a lot to comment on. I would just say that he doesn't run instigator and instead chooses to keep the 2 slot open for cycling Gempalm Incinerator. I'm not sure what the strongest decision is on that and I can't really comment on if there is one. Instigator can trade with 2/2's, which I find very appealing, but he doesn't help vs Lavamancers, which is unfortunate. Though, as for your other concerns...

Concerning Port:
Rishadan Port backs up Lackey, Instigator, etc. and has great synergy with Vial as well. It's good to supplement Wastelands but on the draw can be a "virtual dead card" sometimes. There have also been several times when having Wastelands and Ports has ruined my turn 2 Instigator, however I don't think that the percentage of times they've necessitated me taking a mulligan warrants a change in mana base as much as it does a change in 2cc card choice. All in all, Port is a strong card in many match ups, allowing alternate creature drops to shine when casting them becomes a non-option. Knowing when and what to port is more important and that comes with knowing the other player's deck. As a supporter (mind the pun) the card has a lot of potential to reach into the mid game and can disrupt fragile mana bases for several turns. Making any sort of recovery nearly impossible and complementing cards such as Thorn of Amethyst in conjunction with Lackey, Instigator or Vial.

Concerning Thorn in the sideboard:
As far as Thorn of Amethyst, I think it's a metagame choice and codependent on the iteration of goblins that you've chosen to run. Mono-R should board Thorn as a way to hedge against ANT's mana production and to force them further into the mid-late game, while Rb has Earwig Squad to extract pinpoint threats from their library. While the latter doesn't affect the cards in hand, it is still considerably strong with the amount of "digging" that the deck does for a win condition sometimes, making it a strong (if not stronger) threat compared to Thorns. The spell trap is very good and very fast, but if they see you aggressively mulliganing until you rip one, they will certainly be chanting/duress/thoughtseizing you before they go off.
(PS: I board Pyrostatic Pillar. It's great in my meta vs Elfball, ANT and Solidarity.)

Disclaimer/conclusion:
This is just one opinion to consider. Hope this all helped. :)

[Alma]

Played MonoR at a ~95 players tournament for a 5-2, yesterday.

I lost to a guy with BGw Rock, or something like that, who completely outplayed me game 1, and I flooded game 2, drawing like 8 mountains and 3 goblins.
I also lost to another goblins deck, this one RB, mostly because his Ringleaders did way better.

I think I could beat the RB easily in a better day, and I'm not certain if the BGw guy just plays a lot better and always had everything under control, or got ridiculously lucky finding the exact cards he needed with his SDT.
He was at 2 life and I had my 2-3 goblins in play against a couple of goyfs, + 1-2 goblins in my hand every turn, but he answered every Ringleader with Hymn to Tourach, and every goblin with another blocker or STP, until he drawed 2 Vampires and turned the tide.
Anyway, it was a very nice game, and, so far, I couldn't find any play that would make me win! Wish I could remeber the details, so we could discuss...

Beat BG Rock, Affinity, Reanimator, Bant(?) and Bitterblossom Control.
Never thought Reanimator could be so easy, but the guy was at 9 when he could bring Iona back game 1, and I had 2 Vials game 2, so it wouldn't help anymore.
I didnt really saw a lot of cards in the Bant match, so I don't know if it is actually a Bant. He countered a lot at the beggining, but I just had more goblins. Counterbalance did nothing, because of the ammount of CMC=3, I believe.

Here's the list:
18 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Ringleader
4 Chieftain
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Instigator
4 Piledriver
4 Lackey
4 Vial
3 Gempalm
3 Scourger

SB:
1 Gempalm (needs to be in MD asap!)
2 Tikerer
2 Anarchy
3 Pop (useless)
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Thron (no combo in Brazil, so, useless...)


Sorry for the crappy english, as always.
Can try to remeber more, if there's anyone interested.

@ ScatmanX: You were there, right? Did any better?

[ddt15]

On Instigator: He is powerful, but i think results have shown that he has little actual effect on the outcome of games. If you can get an instigator hit in, you would probably have won that game regardless of the instigators effect. Playing him is optional. I like to run 2 in my monored list but run none when i play R/B.

[bakofried]

I'm amazed you're not running Siege-Gang Commander.

[ThalesCG]

@ Zay, overpowered, ddt15: thanks for the answers, they were very clarifying!

On WI subject: I've been testing just a few matches with the 2 versions (monored and rb) and I've come to the conclusion (after reading what you guys said) that RB version is so tight that there's no place for WI, specially when we have so many colorless mana sources. On the other hand, Monored version seems to need this kind of guy MD, although sometimes it didnt even need to appear to create a win condition; the only question in monored would be how many, I'm testing 3 of because I don't want to have 1 on my hand ALWAYS, 2 should me considered, but I don't think it has great efficiency if compared with 2x SGC md, for example.

@Alma: did you miss siege-gang commander? I think the biggest problem in Goblin's deckbuildings today is knowing what to put MD, there are cards you simple can't take out (pile, warchief, lackey, matron, ringleader), there are "removals" (stingscourger and gempalm on MonoR build, which we choose the quantities usually like 4/3 of) and there are some cards which you can choose wheter "main decking" or not.

I'm not really sure if SGC is this type of card, could you tell us a litte more about it? Also, did you choose the MonoR by Metagame option or just because you wanted to play with it?

Thx, cya!

[ScatmanX]

@ ScatmanX: You were there, right? Did any better?

I was in the same champ. Went 6 wins, 1 intentional draw.
Will post report tomorrow.

[Alma]

I decided for the MonoR.

Not really a metagame choice, but I played RB for a while, and wanted to try MonoR once.
I liked, it's way faster, but I miss the Weirdings.

Removing SGC worked fine. I didn't like the card because of the casting cost, since Vial should never reach 5 counters, and Lackey and Instigator aren't there to connect.
(I mean, it's great when they do, but, in the end, they're there just to be targeted by removals or be blocked to spare a precious Warchief when you are trying to swarm out a couple of blocking goyfs.)
I always thought that the bombs aren't really necessary, since the small guys win all your games...

But I don't know, I don't play this deck a lot, and I need some serious testing to decide between some SGCs and maybe a land to support them, or the Instigators.

[bakofried]

I'd say cut some Chieftains for the SCG's.
@Thales
You do know Tacosnape MD's 4 in his RB Goblins right? Take a look, it looks like an awesome build.

[ThalesCG]

I'd say cut some Chieftains for the SCG's.
@Thales
You do know Tacosnape MD's 4 in his RB Goblins right? Take a look, it looks like an awesome build.

Hey bako!

I looked the mana base at first and he cuts the ports and there're more R mana, consequently less color screw and then slots for WW.
Also I thought that playing NO chieftian in MD is some kind of offensive after many games playing with this guy, which is VERY powerful. Actually, in MonoR builds, I often play goblins by vial/lackey/ww and in this situation Goblin Chieftain is even more powerful than Warchief. This point has been discussed here a for a while...

But I will test this version and try to see what are its really points. As I said, it looked a little weird to me AT FIRST, used to playing with chieftain and ports, but if it works well, I do not have problems with changes :D

Cya!

[Arsenal]

Actually, in MonoR builds, I often play goblins by vial/lackey/ww and in this situation Goblin Chieftain is even more powerful than Warchief. This point has been discussed here a for a while...

This is what I've been running into constantly; unload my hand quickly due to Lackey/WI/Vial, then beat down with a couple 1/1 and 2/2 creatures until my opponent finds an answer. With Chieftain, my attack step actually matters much earlier. Warchief allows for some really broken mainphases though, so it's a tough call; I actually dropped my WI count to 2 and upped my Chieftain count to 4 while still running 4 Warchiefs.

[Joe_C]

Removing SGC worked fine. I didn't like the card because of the casting cost, since Vial should never reach 5 counters, and Lackey and Instigator aren't there to connect.
.

In games that go long, aether vial at 5 is going to win you a game if you need SCG to resolve against a deck that runs counters. Playing against BANT I have had this come up for me several times, and it is very game swinging when it happens....

[bakofried]

Yeah, I'd say Aether Vial should be set at whatever you need it to be. There isn't, and shouldn't be, a "set number" of counters to keep on it. Also, where is the discussion on Chieftain? I'd like to see the more recent stuff, as I'd like all the arguments made to have serious testing backing them up.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, I'd say Aether Vial should be set at whatever you need it to be. There isn't, and shouldn't be, a "set number" of counters to keep on it. Also, where is the discussion on Chieftain? I'd like to see the more recent stuff, as I'd like all the arguments made to have serious testing backing them up.

I brought it up a few pages back; essentially, in monoR builds running playsets of Lackey, Instigator, and Vial, you're often times in a situation where you have 3+ guys out on the field swinging, but if one of them isn't Piledriver, you're really not doing too much damage in relation to the number of men you're turning sideways (Lackey + Matron + Ringleader = 4 points off 3 men). As a side effect, Warchief becomes much less valuable if you're vomiting your hand before turn 3 anyway, although he does still allow for insane mainphases.

Chieftain allows you to hit harder earlier, not crutch so much on Piledriver swinging for a billion, and he allows you to keep the pressure up without overextending. I like him a lot and I'm almost never sorry to see him (never a completely dead topdeck).

[FoulQ]

In games that go long, aether vial at 5 is going to win you a game if you need SCG to resolve against a deck that runs counters. Playing against BANT I have had this come up for me several times, and it is very game swinging when it happens....

100% agree. I'm not a fan of hardline narrowminded rules like that in magic.

In fact, one of the most devastating plays you can make is warchief, ringleader, SGC off vial 3 turns in a row. I actually think this is the easiest way to win games - if your opponent isn't winning by then already, they are going to have a very hard time recovering from that one-two(-three!) punch.

And I move vial up to 4 all the time if I, A) have a ringleader, B) am expecting a ringleader that turn, or C) need a ringleader to secure victory or to come back from defeat.

And to bakofried's question, I usually like 2-3 chieftains in monored and 0-2 chieftains in RB. But that's just me.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

My meta is zoo heavy, I'm considering playing 6 sb cards vs zoo. What do you think are the best?

[kinda]

4x Perish
2x deathmark or the perish equivalent that I can't remember the name of...deathmark's are also useful against iona.

[ScatmanX]

4 Perish
3 Pyroknesis
Knesis has a way wider aplication than Deathmark.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Mono R sb :(

[Joe_C]

My meta is zoo heavy, I'm considering playing 6 sb cards vs zoo. What do you think are the best?

Zoo is going to be a little problematic even if you designate 6 slots to it.... they run burn, which is going to be a problem for your early creatures.... The best plan is to play the control role, if you dont run port, you should against a zoo heavy environment to cut them off colors.. against zoo I bring in 4 pyrokenisis and 2 relic of progenitus

[ScatmanX]

In Zoo heavy metagames, play a list with some number of Stingscourer and Mogg Warmarchal MD. They're great agains't it.

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

I play 4 Chalice of the Void in SB. Thats what i usually board against zoo. You just have to keep the pridemages to a minmum then.
CHalice is also good against StifleNoght, Tempo Thresh, ElfBall, and ANT and Belcher of course.

Another thing:

What do you guys sideboard against Lands and Enchantress without G-Splash? I run into one of these like every tourney once or twice. I am playing a rather weired list (for your standards), maybe you can comment on it:

4 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wastelands

4 Vial
4 Lackey

4 Piledriver
3 Warren weirding
2 Stingscourger
2 Incinerator

4 Matron
4 Warchief
3 Chieftain

4 Ringleader
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie

2 SGC

SIDE:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ley-Line of the Void
2 Perish
1 Anarchy
2 Reverent Silence
2 Earwig Squad

I tested 3 Perish, 2 Silence and 2 Perish, 3 Silence. Now i decided to add Anarchy, cause its like a replacement for Perish (since it kilse Pridemages, Loam Lions, War Monks) and also a replacement for Reverent Silence (since it kills Moat, Humility, Solitary Confinement). + It takes Planeswalkers. This could be an important point because Gideon Jura is joining the format in 2 weeks.

[luckme10]

Worth using this?
Goblin Tunneler - {1}{R}
Creature -- Goblin Rogue
1/1
{T}: Target creature with power 2 or less is unblockable this turn.

I feel like they just gave goblins the crack in the dam.

[Alma]

In games that go long, aether vial at 5 is going to win you a game if you need SCG to resolve against a deck that runs counters. Playing against BANT I have had this come up for me several times, and it is very game swinging when it happens....

That came out wrong, sorry. I didn't mean it to be a rule, or something... just what happens more often while I'm playing my list.

I usually leave Vial with 3 counters, because of the enormous ammount of CMC=3 I use. They are 12, compared to 4 CMC=4+ only, and, maybe, one or two SGC, if I decide to include'em.

Doesn't feel good to increase the number of counters before I have the Goblin in hand, because the chance of drawing a CMC=3 is higher, and if I need to draw it first, and increase the counters to play it later, I'll much probably just play it using lands.

I mean, all that considering I don't have an obvious play that calls for the fourth counter, like beeing totally manascrewed, or tutoring Ringleader with a Vialed Matron the turn before, or 2+ Ringleaders, maybe with a low land count, in my opening hand, or something.


Anyway, I don't play the deck a lot, so there's always a big chance that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and maybe I'll learn if I keep playing it.
: )

[jrsthethird]

Worth using this?
Goblin Tunneler - {1}{R}
Creature -- Goblin Rogue
1/1
{T}: Target creature with power 2 or less is unblockable this turn.

I feel like they just gave goblins the crack in the dam.

Would only be good as a singleton to be searched when needed for the win with Piledriver. Too weak otherwise.

[luckme10]

Well that and it allows lackey and warren instigator to hit... seems like a good reason to run 4 instigators.

[bakofried]

You have to untap with it, though....
I dunno. It's 2 for a 1/1 that has to untap to be relevant, and isn't scary while alone (on the field).

[overpowered]

My meta is zoo heavy, I'm considering playing 6 sb cards vs zoo. What do you think are the best?

Mono-R:
In the zoo match, key cards are going to be Pyrokinesis, Relic of Progenitus and Blood Moon (maybe... I've seen zoo builds that run heavy red + fireblast). I'd say those are your best bets in the SB for Zoo. Collateral damage on Blood Moon includes 43 Land, which is a bad match and gets helped games 2-3, and some other match-ups that I can't quite think of at the moment. It's a solid card, but I don't know what to drop from the SB. Also, you'd need to get it on the table before they can drop a Quasali Pridemage... Kind of tricky :P but doable with Port. Pyrokinesis is a no-brainer. That card is awesome. It drops cats like crazy on your turn, and slays Lavamancers. You NEED to hit card parity (AT LEAST) when using it in the zoo match, because you're going to be staring down the barrel of large creatures all day, and they spell card advantage against 1/1's and 2/2's. Watch for pump. I had someone cast Vines of Vastwood when I burnt his stuff and it cost me the match.

Rb:
Perish, Kinesis... that's all I board I think. If I had room, I'd drop a Blood Moon in there too, but I don't. A lot of what goes for the Mono-R translates to Rb as far as strategy. Just watch for openings and bounce their larger CC guys to keep their tempo down. (KoTR for example, is a good Stingscourger target)

[(nameless one)]

This reminded me of pre-M10 Mogg Fanatic:


Goblin Arsonist :r:

Creature - Goblin Shaman

When Goblin Arsonist is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may have it deal 1 damage to target creature or player

1/1

Not exactly the effective Dredge hoser but it does have that 2-1 feel to it.

But then again, Goblins as it is has a really tight space.

Discuss.

[FoulQ]

This reminded me of pre-M10 Mogg Fanatic:

*duder*

Not exactly the effective Dredge hoser but it does have that 2-1 feel to it.

But then again, Goblins as it is has a really tight space.

Discuss.

Nope.

Not enough X/2 creatures to make a difference.

And fanatic's real strength has always been confidant + dredge. And, the third part he was traditionally good at, killing lots of lil dudes, is gone, since people don't play lil dudes anymore. They play big, scary ones, often cats or lhurgoyfs.

So I don't think the question is what to replace fanatic with, if we ever do get an improved version (like this is/isn't). I would not maindeck pre-m10 fanatics in the current metagame. And I doubt this will be any good.

But I've been wrong many times before.

[GoboLord]

Nope.

Not enough X/2 creatures to make a difference.

And fanatic's real strength has always been confidant + dredge. And, the third part he was traditionally good at, killing lots of lil dudes, is gone, since people don't play lil dudes anymore. They play big, scary ones, often cats or lhurgoyfs.

So I don't think the question is what to replace fanatic with, if we ever do get an improved version (like this is/isn't). I would not maindeck pre-m10 fanatics in the current metagame. And I doubt this will be any good.

But I've been wrong many times before.

This time you aren't ;-)

I think Mogg fanatic is no option anymore. As you said: there are no lil dudes anymore. I count on Stingscourger a lot.
He bounces fat guys, can block another in opponents turn. This means it deals with up to 2 creatures and slows the opponent down.
It can be used against dredge as well cause of it's echo cost.
Plus it can deal with Iona (red) when you have Vial.

For this reasons i think its not worth playing mogg fanatic anymore. Stingscourger costs 1 Mana too (with) warchief in play. In Turn1 you dont want to play Fanatic either, cause you have vial and lackey.

[bakofried]

Anyone think Gobbos will get anything good in Scars of Mirrodin, as Rise of the Eldrazi has been a disappointment?

[Avatara]

The only thing I'm disappointing about is that they didn't print a Goblin with level-up.

[GoboLord]

Anyone think Gobbos will get anything good in Scars of Mirrodin, as Rise of the Eldrazi has been a disappointment?

Seriously, how could one possibly now...
And its not worth debating about something we havnt even a single hint on.
We should rather start exciting discussion about strategies against difficult Match-ups. Thats what i missed a lot in this thread and that what we need experienced goblin players as well as some good strategists for.

I want to know for example how you guys face Enchantress. I mean what have you keep your eyes on? Mulligans? or is it all about good SB slots?

[Pyronick]

Enchantress is a tough match-up. The version that I play against is a Bantress, in which he fishes for energy field, then drops a Wheel of Sun and Moon, which is pretty much an auto win. I was running Mono red at the time and my only saving graces were Anarchy and Blue Elemental Blast outa the board. Another option was making him sac his own energy field by shutting him down with Port and Wastelands. However since then he has been running basics, and I am running RB now.

That being said, I find RB to be a much better option, using weirdings to make him sac his Enchantress to sac energy field. Although now I have 0 response to him dropping the combo out. Are other people experiencing these results? Or are most enchantress decks not running the blue splash?

[GoboLord]

Enchantress is a tough match-up. The version that I play against is a Bantress, in which he fishes for energy field, then drops a Wheel of Sun and Moon, which is pretty much an auto win. I was running Mono red at the time and my only saving graces were Anarchy and Blue Elemental Blast outa the board. Another option was making him sac his own energy field by shutting him down with Port and Wastelands. However since then he has been running basics, and I am running RB now.

That being said, I find RB to be a much better option, using weirdings to make him sac his Enchantress to sac energy field. Although now I have 0 response to him dropping the combo out. Are other people experiencing these results? Or are most enchantress decks not running the blue splash?

Actually I never faced one. I most often see GW or GWr with Words of War. I run a RBg list and I think we have to relay on our speed here. I have 2 Reverent Silence and 1 Anarchy in Board, for which I kick 2 Gempalm Incinirator and 1 Ringleader.
He most certainly wins game 1, so we have to win the next one.
So I take a mulligan is I am not able to virtually kill him on Turn4, since he is bad at dealing with fast starts.
If he forces us in Mid-or late-game we have to wait for our enchantment removal to get rid of Moat/Confinement and kill him in the very same turn cause he most certainly has a Replenish waiting on his hand.

How do you use your Wastelands here? Do you waste him as early as possible or do you keep them for Serra's Sanctum and use the :1: to speed yourself up?

[bakofried]

From what I've garnered, maximize your disruption package, along with Anarchy in the board. Anarchy is also an answer to Progenitus, so it's not exactly a wasted slot.

[GoboLord]

Yeah, its nice against Bant in general, cause Rhoy War Monk can be a problem too.
Plus u have 1 auto-win against White Weenie or this new deck UW Tempo (with Wayfarer and Fathom Seer).
I am thinking about replacing Reverent SIlence completey for Anarchy? Its also good against Elspeth, Knight of Reliquary, Kitchen Finks and Gideon Jura (next week).

What do you think? Worth running more in board?

@ Bako: What do you mean by "disruption package". Which cards would you use?

[bakofried]

Wasteland+Port. Try to keep them off green mana, lest ye be caught in the Elephant Grass.

[overpowered]

I've been stuck under Elephant Grass many times and decided that Pyrostatic Pillar is my solution to their deck. It's direct damage and can be backed up with a lot of good creatures. As I think they're just a sturdier combo deck, I believe Pillar can put them in a world of hurt when dropped turn 2. I tried boarding in 4 thorns but their late game and mid game mana production just made that card look like a bad joke.

Anarchy is a very strong sideboard card, and as we know, they're going to be boarding in Karmic Justice. So if you can steal game 1 (which you have a decent chance of doing so) you can take the match with pillar, since they will be taking 2-4 damage minimum in trying to remove it. As far as mana/damage efficiency is concerned, that's a fair trade. And it changes their strategy as well, by forcing at least one tempo swing before they can "combo off".

Port is important in this match since you can effectively cause mana "parity" with their Utopia Sprawled lands. Wasteland should be used as much as possible in trying to hit green sources.

Elephant grass is upsetting to see on the other side of the board, but if we can get pillar into play it gives us reach beyond the grass without costing us in the mana department. Most of the time, you can just cast your guys into it and trade life for tempo against a deck that takes a little momentum to become threatening. It allows you to keep the pressure on them and even force them into Solitary Confinement earlier than they'd like to.

I don't know if anyone's tested Pyrostatic Pillar against them, but I think it's good board vs combo and collaterals well vs Enchantress. This is all theory however, so I'm not sure what the general consensus is on this. It seems to be a strong card to board in conjunction with Anarchy, as it has many pros in this matchup and few cons. Thoughts?

[GoboLord]

I've been stuck under Elephant Grass many times and decided that Pyrostatic Pillar is my solution to their deck. It's direct damage and can be backed up with a lot of good creatures. As I think they're just a sturdier combo deck, I believe Pillar can put them in a world of hurt when dropped turn 2. I tried boarding in 4 thorns but their late game and mid game mana production just made that card look like a bad joke.

Anarchy is a very strong sideboard card, and as we know, they're going to be boarding in Karmic Justice. So if you can steal game 1 (which you have a decent chance of doing so) you can take the match with pillar, since they will be taking 2-4 damage minimum in trying to remove it. As far as mana/damage efficiency is concerned, that's a fair trade. And it changes their strategy as well, by forcing at least one tempo swing before they can "combo off".

Port is important in this match since you can effectively cause mana "parity" with their Utopia Sprawled lands. Wasteland should be used as much as possible in trying to hit green sources.

Elephant grass is upsetting to see on the other side of the board, but if we can get pillar into play it gives us reach beyond the grass without costing us in the mana department. Most of the time, you can just cast your guys into it and trade life for tempo against a deck that takes a little momentum to become threatening. It allows you to keep the pressure on them and even force them into Solitary Confinement earlier than they'd like to.

I don't know if anyone's tested Pyrostatic Pillar against them, but I think it's good board vs combo and collaterals well vs Enchantress. This is all theory however, so I'm not sure what the general consensus is on this. It seems to be a strong card to board in conjunction with Anarchy, as it has many pros in this matchup and few cons. Thoughts?

Dude, thats what I was thinking about myself! :cool:

I tested Pillar on the last tourney and boarded it against Enchantress,
Unfortunaltely my experience is not very representatitve cause I held a bad hand with Pyrostatic Pillar (just to test it out). I
I dropped it in turn 2, and he sure had a lot of problems with it. I lost the game cause I had no Anarchy back then and he found his Confinement on 5! lifes. With my bad hand I did not make enough pressure with my creatures.

I think this is this THE option, now you mention it.

Any other experience?
I think we should test it!

[Arsenal]

Dude, thats what I was thinking about myself! :cool:

I tested Pillar on the last tourney and boarded it against Enchantress,
Unfortunaltely my experience is not very representatitve cause I held a bad hand with Pyrostatic Pillar (just to test it out). I
I dropped it in turn 2, and he sure had a lot of problems with it. I lost the game cause I had no Anarchy back then and he found his Confinement on 5! lifes. With my bad hand I did not make enough pressure with my creatures.

I think this is this THE option, now you mention it.

Any other experience?
I think we should test it!

Although I didn't have the Enchantress matchup in mind, I used Pillar in the board when facing Storm combo. I quickly changed them to Thorn of Amethyst as Thorn has wider applications and it slows down Storm combo much better than Pillar.

In the Enchantress matchup however, I don't see why Thorn wouldn't slow them down a bunch as well; they only have a few creatures spells and are reliant on sick chains of Aura --> Draw a ton --> Cast more Aura --> etc. One Thorn could slow them down for a couple turns, and two Thorns could cripple them enough for you to win. I don't know, this is all theory, but I'd rely on swinging as usual while keeping my opponent off his curve.

[Nidd]

What's the general consens on Slavering Nulls? Does playing an increased removal package in the form of 3 Incinerators, 3 Stingscourgers and 2 Weirdings dilute the deck too much?

[overpowered]

Although I didn't have the Enchantress matchup in mind, I used Pillar in the board when facing Storm combo. I quickly changed them to Thorn of Amethyst as Thorn has wider applications and it slows down Storm combo much better than Pillar.

In the Enchantress matchup however, I don't see why Thorn wouldn't slow them down a bunch as well; they only have a few creatures spells and are reliant on sick chains of Aura --> Draw a ton --> Cast more Aura --> etc. One Thorn could slow them down for a couple turns, and two Thorns could cripple them enough for you to win. I don't know, this is all theory, but I'd rely on swinging as usual while keeping my opponent off his curve.

I've tried thorns, and to be honest, it depends on their turn 2 drop. If they have the enchantress' presence, it slows them down a little. If they drop argothian, they can just pay the mana using "wild growth"-esque stuff. The deck is designed to make mana parity for the majority of their casts and to draw them cards. It just turns all their one drop enchantments into "cycling for one" instead of "cycling for free". Pyrostatic Pillar is instead a more permanent solution since they don't play many ways to gain life. It depletes a highly limited resource, that when expended will end the game, instead of Thorn of Amethyst, which depletes a mildly (at best) limited resource which when expended, just means they have to wait for one more untap step to regain it. Thorn spreads the "broken turn" out over several turns, but Pillar prevents the broken turn by ending the game. If you think about it in terms of their cards, using the cycling example from earlier, they would rather cycle for 1 mana than cycle for 2 life. The reason? Sanctum can get them out of the Thorns very quickly, and requires us to have yet another solution (wasteland) in order to keep our pressure on. Pyrostatic pillar sees sanctum and disregards it, instead limiting them to 10 spells for the entirety of the game. One of them will be, I'm sure, Elephant Grass and another will be Solitary Confinement. I'm sure they'll have to cast confinement blind in order to prevent themselves from losing, and in a complex deck like that, it can sometimes be the difference between a win and a loss. Yes, it will let them look for an answer, sure, but it also allows you to get your best guys into play while they're struggling to hold their ground. Pillar can reach with damage where grass stops your guys, it takes a one time investment and can significantly shorten the number of turns required to swing guys in.

Thorns keeps the game going much longer than you'd like, will increase the amount of time for them to draw answers, and isn't hard for them to play around as a one of where Pyrostatic Pillar is. Try dropping 2 Pillars onto the board and see if you like two of those over two Thorns. ;)

That concludes my case for Pillar over Thorns.

[from Cairo]

What's the general consens on Slavering Nulls?

I think the 2cc slot is too crowded with better options. I wouldn't consider this card unless maxed on Piledrivers and Instigators, at which point I don't see much room a non-evasive specter.


Does playing an increased removal package in the form of 3 Incinerators, 3 Stingscourgers and 2 Weirdings dilute the deck too much?

I've run 7 removal spells before and been ok with it. It's alot of creature kill, but if meta dictates, it seems defensible.

[Avatara]

The week after I placed top 8 at a local Grand Prix Madrid qualifier; I started running 2 Smoldering Spires main deck. They have made the difference for me a lot of times. Connecting early Lackeys/Instigators (yes Spires will get them past Iona) and pushing through those extra points of damage for the alpha strike. In the worst case scenario they Wasteland it on turn one... to be honest that play hurts most other decks more than Goblins.

I am convinced, after more than two months of testing, that it deserves a spot on the mono red lists.

[GoboLord]

The week after I placed top 8 at a local Grand Prix Madrid qualifier; I started running 2 Smoldering Spires main deck. They have made the difference for me a lot of times. Connecting early Lackeys/Instigators (yes Spires will get them past Iona) and pushing through those extra points of damage for the alpha strike. In the worst case scenario they Wasteland it on turn one... to be honest that play hurts most other decks more than Goblins.

I am convinced, after more than two months of testing, that it deserves a spot on the mono red lists.

I did not test it much, but had the same idea for a RB-list and i liked it. I had it on opening hand too often (although I played just 2 of it). I like to hear more about it when you tesed it on some tourneys.

@ unpowered: I completely agree, very good reasoning. I was thinking about exchnging Pillar for horns,but thenyou made a good point with your "pushes them into mid-game" reasoning.

[overpowered]

The week after I placed top 8 at a local Grand Prix Madrid qualifier; I started running 2 Smoldering Spires main deck. They have made the difference for me a lot of times. Connecting early Lackeys/Instigators (yes Spires will get them past Iona) and pushing through those extra points of damage for the alpha strike. In the worst case scenario they Wasteland it on turn one... to be honest that play hurts most other decks more than Goblins.

I am convinced, after more than two months of testing, that it deserves a spot on the mono red lists.

I think this is a fine call, since this deck is ultimately a tempo deck, important plays such as hitting lackey and stinging their Iona are the only way to win certain unwinnable scenarios in a mono-R build. Blocking can be the difference between massive tempo/card advantage via lackey or WI, and losing. It will certainly be something to help the deck evolve to the big creatures for cheap format that Wizards has created.

[Arsenal]

The week after I placed top 8 at a local Grand Prix Madrid qualifier; I started running 2 Smoldering Spires main deck. They have made the difference for me a lot of times. Connecting early Lackeys/Instigators (yes Spires will get them past Iona) and pushing through those extra points of damage for the alpha strike. In the worst case scenario they Wasteland it on turn one... to be honest that play hurts most other decks more than Goblins.

I am convinced, after more than two months of testing, that it deserves a spot on the mono red lists.

For the times you didn't have a Lackey/Instigator, did you find the CIPT too much of a drawback? Hitting your curve is ultra important when you don't have a Lackey/Instigator to lean on.

[nightmaster]

I have used 2 in mono red to some success. Nothing huge but they are useful from time to time. I ran 22 lands and I don't think I ever had any significant problems with CIPT. A few times it was annoying but the drawback was never gamebreaking.

[bakofried]

Where have FoulQ, Tacosnape, and the rest gone? I'd like to see more opinions on this; it seems interesting.

[FoulQ]

Where have FoulQ, Tacosnape, and the rest gone? I'd like to see more opinions on this; it seems interesting.

Hah.

Well if anybody can remember when zendikar was released, I and a few others tested soaring seacliffs with moderate success. The ability itself is meh, but the surprise factor is what will really fuck with people. Remember how good stingscourger was when half the forum hated it? People would open themselves up to huge losses from a simple goblin unsummon. Now that most opponents know what stingscourger is, it isn't quite as good (but still bomb imo).

So yeah, soaring seacliffs surprised everyone I played it against, and more often than not that led to massive gains. An opponent with a goyf on board and holding daze for your t2 weirding could very well lose the entire game because of a sneaky seacliffs.

However, the benefit to me wasn't that great overall, and the CITP and the blue mana made me think to run 23-24 lands, and then with 24 mainly, I got flooded, but had no troubles with CITP and not enough red mana.

So this other land basically does the same thing as soaring seacliffs, AND adds red mana! Seems like a great thing, right?

Well I left out one important detail, and that is that soaring seacliffs makes your lackeys/instigators uncounterably unblockable at any time, and by the late game your opponent may have more than 2 creatures out, reducing the usefulness of smoldering spires. Soaring seacliffs is already conditional, and smoldering spires is even moreso, especially as a 2-of where you are more likely to draw it later in the game.

The other benefits, extra swinging damage (often with piledriver shenanigans), is not really that significant. When I was lackeyless, seacliffs got me the occasional points in. Yeah, there was still a benefit. But it wasn't that important. Smoldering spires, while different than seacliffs, I feel would be the same way.

I agree that the CITP is not really a problem. The land will help you more often than it will fuck you, though you will get the occasional fuck.

My final conclusion on the card...I can see myself using it as a meta call, especially if people expect you always to play goblins and your metagame is more insular. Throw it in one week, now your opponent plays around the next. People get into set patterns that will fuck them over often whether you have it or not. Classic example? Stifle.

Basically, the more insular your metagame, the better it will fuck with your opponents, in your 75 or not.

I have the same opinion on blood moon and magus. Because most people will not play around it unless they know you have it, but once they play against you at the next tournament after being fucked (or possibly not) in the first tournery by a blood moon, they will play around it (or SB for it) even if you don't have it.

But not a recommendation for a standard decklist. Could also be good at big events like GPs because people get into set patterns there too. Why would they get paired up against the random janker playing some boringly designed worldwake common that only got cozy sleeves put on them during drafts? But they did get paired up against you, and now they are 0-2 dropping.

[danielcrocker]

What do you guys think about goblin arsonist??

[GoboLord]

What do you guys think about goblin arsonist??

What do YOU think of Mogg Fanatic?

I think Arsonist is just a poor version of a card that we dont play too often. You cant sac it but have to wait for it to die, that a disadvantage in comparison to Mogg Fanatic.

[angel882]

What is the correct number if you are playing CIPT lands?? 2-3 maybe, or do you want play playset? Here is a list which I created after I got excited of those CIPT lands

4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
6 Mountains
3 Smoldering Spires
5 Fetch

4 Aether Vial
3 Warren weirding

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren Instigator

SB:
2 Blood Moon
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Perish
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap/Faerie Macabre

Ravenous Trap would be good against Dredge, but Faerie Macabre will deal reanimators and loam decks too. I think Faerie Macabre is more versatile than Trap. I'm not playing Warchief in this list because I want to drop Goblin not to play them and that's why I play Chieftains over Warchiefs. Please give comments about this list. I haven't played it yet so I don't know how good Smoldering Spires really is.

[GoboLord]

What is the correct number if you are playing CIPT lands?? 2-3 maybe, or do you want play playset? Here is a list which I created after I got excited of those CIPT lands

4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
6 Mountains
3 Smoldering Spires
5 Fetch

4 Aether Vial
3 Warren weirding

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren Instigator

SB:
2 Blood Moon
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Perish
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap/Faerie Macabre

Ravenous Trap would be good against Dredge, but Faerie Macabre will deal reanimators and loam decks too. I think Faerie Macabre is more versatile than Trap. I'm not playing Warchief in this list because I want to drop Goblin not to play them and that's why I play Chieftains over Warchiefs. Please give comments about this list. I haven't played it yet so I don't know how good Smoldering Spires really is.

CIPT lands: I think you should test wether to play 2 or 3.
Warchief: You slow yourself down by playing cip-tapped lands AND you dont play Warchief. This makes you less agressive/explosive and far more predictable for your opponent. With this combination you give away the most important advantage of goblins.
Graveyard-hate: Why dont you play 4 Leylines? They cant be countered, Reanimator iand Dredge are not prepared that goblins will sideboard this and Loam can handle your Crypts, by letting you sac it and then they just play another Loam.
I play Leylines and on the last tourney I was paired against Dredge and Reanimator. The first conceded cause he boarded Ancient Grduges instead of Ray of Revelation and the latter conceded, cause he didnt board bounce, expecting Tormods Crypt or Trap (which he could have countered).

[FoulQ]

The problem I have with leyline is that you cannot skill your way into a well-placed leyline. Sure, you can mull till you get one, but oftentimes luck will not be on your side either A) in your own unluckiness, or B) in your opponent's luckiness in answering it. I prefer hate that I can mull OR draw into (and saying you can cast leyline on t4 is kinda...not the greatest argument). Not to mention, other gy hate can be just as surprising if you place it just at the right time.

[GoboLord]

The problem I have with leyline is that you cannot skill your way into a well-placed leyline. Sure, you can mull till you get one, but oftentimes luck will not be on your side either A) in your own unluckiness, or B) in your opponent's luckiness in answering it. I prefer hate that I can mull OR draw into (and saying you can cast leyline on t4 is kinda...not the greatest argument). Not to mention, other gy hate can be just as surprising if you place it just at the right time.

I am not saying that mull into Leyline is an option, neither is playing it on T4.
What I thought about it was this:
Consider the most frqeuent decks to board GY hate against. Looking at my meta its Reanimator and Dredge.
With Leyline in deck for g2 you have three 4-offs in your deck that you want to have in your opening hand (Lackey, Vial, Leyline).
You dont have to mull here cause a 1st-turn Lackey/Vial/Leyline surely is (to varying degrees) a problem for the decks just mentioned.
Even skilled players expect you to have Relics/Crypt/Trap in board, so they consider this when keeping or taking mulligan. Reanimator knows that they have to counter or discard your hate or bring guys in via Show and Tell. So they keep a hand with counter and/or discard. Dredge's plan is to handle your GY hate with Cabal Therapy and Ancient Grudge.
Both startegies dont consider Ley-Line/enchantment removal.

If you dont have it on your opening hand you can place early Lackeys to cause them trouble. Dredge cant do much against it and Reanmator will keep its counters for Relic/Crypt.
Actually I dont think there is ANY matchup for gGoblins against which you shoul mull on LeyLine. You always consider it as the 3rd "killer-at-turn-one-card".

Thats why I play Ley-Lines.

[bakofried]

What do you think of Tuktuk in the test slot for this Friday? Last Friday, Tinkerer saved my ass twice, but Tuktuk could be better in other MU's. Thoughts?

[GoboLord]

What do you think of Tuktuk in the test slot for this Friday? Last Friday, Tinkerer saved my ass twice, but Tuktuk could be better in other MU's. Thoughts?

I dont know any match-up that could be better with TukTuk, maybe you could explain what you mean here?
IMO TukTuk doesnt solve problems like Dreadnought and Jitte. I think any other removal is here a better SB slot (and thats what we usually dont put into SB).

[angel882]

It depend what gy-hate people are playing in your meta. When I was playing Goblin against dredge they knew that I was playing Leyline or they just sided in bounce always. After Zendikar was released people started playing Ravenous Trap and dredge knows that you are playing it. That's why I'm considering playing Faerie Macabre because it will be surprise and you don't need to play 4-of. My opinion is to mix gy-hate. I used to play this kind of mixture:
1 Relic
1 Crypt
2 Trap

[ThalesCG]

Hey there!

What's the commom sense wheter playing first turn Lackey or Vial?
I swear I tried to find this discussion in the pages but I couldn't :(

@gobolord, @angel

I've tested angel's version with CIPT lands and I didn't feel the lack of Warchief. Since the purpose is to put guys fastly through Lackey / Instigator WITH CIPT, I think that this list is in a good process of developing, but I can't say totally sure that Warchief should not but played :( It's very important, and the slots of goblins lists have been very tight nowadays :/ .

[bakofried]

I'm having a bit of trouble with the side. I have reason to suspect Elf-Combo will be making an appearance this weekend, and I'd like to ensure that it doesn't take me out. I don't believe Thorn is anywhere near good against them, but it's much better vs. Storm and Burn. So, basically, what should I do? I'm thinking of putting a single Sharpshooter in the main or the side, and I should probably side in Pyrokinesis, but what else?

[daPaule]

I'm having a bit of trouble with the side. I have reason to suspect Elf-Combo will be making an appearance this weekend, ...

I guess you will try to go mono R but in this case the R/b Version has the ultimate solution to disturb their build up in form of perish.
Although it doesn't stop their combo turn hence it being a sorcery but it can buy you the time needed to finish them off early.

Are we talking elfball combo or elf "aggro" combo with Joraga Warcaller ?

And what else do you expect of the metagame ?

[Funky-kun]

Besides the one Sharpshooter, I believe Chalice would be worth it against Elves, while still retaining its effectiveness against Storm Combo, and being even more devastating against Burn.

[bakofried]

Therein lies the rub. I only have 2 Chalices. And I'm hesitant to board in Pyrostatic Pillar vs. burn, for good reason.
*EDIT
It would be Elf-Combo, btw.

[FoulQ]

I'm having a bit of trouble with the side. I have reason to suspect Elf-Combo will be making an appearance this weekend, and I'd like to ensure that it doesn't take me out. I don't believe Thorn is anywhere near good against them, but it's much better vs. Storm and Burn. So, basically, what should I do? I'm thinking of putting a single Sharpshooter in the main or the side, and I should probably side in Pyrokinesis, but what else?

If people are playing elf combo, I mean, if it's a significant presence, you probably have a fairly budget metagame. And budget metagames usually have stuff like mono black aggro, elves, white control decks, and of course our good friend goblins. By budget metagame I don't mean that nobody has duals, but that you aren't running into generic boring bant crap every round.

Chalice for sure! I agree with FunkyKun. It is also great against storm and burn, and can really screw canadian if you plant it just right. For a budget metagame, I recommend 4 maindeck gempalms and 1 maindeck sharpshooter. You might consider actually going Rg for Tin Street Hooligan (great against vial, and jitte, and the control players with artifacts designed to smash the budget decks). And krosan grip out of the side, because all those black players will be expecting goblins and elves.

I'd play something like this:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief

2-3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
3-4 Goblin Chieftain

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

4 Aether Vial
8 Fetch
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain

SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis (good, but 4 kinesis + 4 chalice might be too much)
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void (burn, elves, combo, possibly more)
SB: 3 Compost
SB: 3 Krosan Grip

....
Take from it what you will. I played in a budget metagame for a little bit, and I think Rg is the best choice for them because of grip + tin street, and compost IS a bomb against bad black decks, from what I've experienced. To me, budget metas usually consist of triba (goblins, elves, merfs), generic aggro (affinity, MBA), control decks designed to beat both (quinn, mbc), and janky combo decks that sadly beat all of them unless they shit on themselves (which is actually fairly common).

ETA: If you only have 2 chalices, I recommend making some friends to get more and borrow them. They are pretty important for what you are describing, IMO.

[bakofried]

*EDIT* The below post is meant to be taken as surprise, not as snippishness. The point was that he was dead on, and I was attempting to make a funny comment. Epic fail on my part.
How did you know everyone plays black? Seriously, though, I've said this plenty: My metagame is casual players with cheap (as in majority of cards <$3) decks plus a few competitive players. One of those competitive players has every deck imaginable, so he's difficult to plan against, though he's played Zoo multiple times. He recently started bringing a friend, who plays Elf-Combo, and occasionally others come (Geddon Weenies, UW Landstill) but he, an Enlightened Tutor Control deck featuring Painter's Grindstone as the win-con, and Burn/SuiBlack, comprise my metagame. Not developed, certainly, but there are a few good apples. Sadly, I can't afford a G splash. I'd love to, but right now, I might just have to settle for Scrapper/Tinkerer.

[FoulQ]

Sorry if I came off as harsh. I did not mean to tell you what you should do. I should have rephrased it to be saying that this was my personal experience in a fairly budget metagame, and then you can take from that what you will, some ideas. If you don't want to splash green, I'd play 4 gempalms and 1 sharpshooter in the maindeck, along with pyrokinesis in your sideboard and 4 chieftains in your 75.

[bakofried]

What? No, it didn't come off as harsh. Damn the interwebs for lack of proper tone! All of those suggestions are great. But, for lack of Duals (I won't start that up) would you suggest Tuktuk Scrapper or Goblin Tinkerer?
Btw, the "How did you know" comment was actually meant to be a joke, as you would be surprised how many people you find with 4 Sadistic Sacrament MD, along with Bad Moon, Vampire's Bite, and Unholy Strength. (funny story about that, PM me if you want to hear it)
*EDIT
I'm also confused, how is the above list 60 cards?

[GoboLord]

What? No, it didn't come off as harsh. Damn the interwebs for lack of proper tone! All of those suggestions are great. But, for lack of Duals (I won't start that up) would you suggest Tuktuk Scrapper or Goblin Tinkerer?
Btw, the "How did you know" comment was actually meant to be a joke, as you would be surprised how many people you find with 4 Sadistic Sacrament MD, along with Bad Moon, Vampire's Bite, and Unholy Strength. (funny story about that, PM me if you want to hear it)
*EDIT
I'm also confused, how is the above list 60 cards?

The list was no actual decklist. Its a list of possible cards you CAN play on the next tourney. How much salt you put in your soup is up to you (that's what he meant, I guess).

[bakofried]

I have a question concerning Gem-Palm Incinerator:
Do you ever cycle it with no targets? I'm running 4 off of a suggestion from FoulQ, but sometimes they clog my hand. Right now it's a 4/2 split with Stingscourger, but I'm just wondering, do you cycle just to cycle, and if you do, how often?

[Joe_C]

I have a question concerning Gem-Palm Incinerator:
Do you ever cycle it with no targets? I'm running 4 off of a suggestion from FoulQ, but sometimes they clog my hand. Right now it's a 4/2 split with Stingscourger, but I'm just wondering, do you cycle just to cycle, and if you do, how often?

yes. Only when I need something other than incinerator in my hand, like an actual threat or a board card, or even more often, lands..... But the situation does come up more often than you would think where cycling one away is a good choice...

[FoulQ]

I have a question concerning Gem-Palm Incinerator:
Do you ever cycle it with no targets? I'm running 4 off of a suggestion from FoulQ, but sometimes they clog my hand. Right now it's a 4/2 split with Stingscourger, but I'm just wondering, do you cycle just to cycle, and if you do, how often?

I think running 4 gempalms is also sort of a playstyle thing.

Yeah that deck I posted is way over cards. Cutting more cards would be necessary. Piledriver, instigator, perhaps a gempalm if 4 isn't working for you, maybe the TSH or the sharpshooter if it isn't working out, etc.

A list I would play, considering you seem to be not liking the 4 gempalms,

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief

2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Chieftain

3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

4 Aether Vial
8 Fetch
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain

SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Compost
SB: 3 Krosan Grip

My only concern with this list is only 5 removal spells (+ sharpshooter) in a meta with a good amount of creatures. But you do have x4 pyrokinesis out of the side.

Oh, and tell me if you ever end up playing affinity with TSH in your deck, because all the sudden he becomes this lovely god card that you always want to draw a thousand of. I got addicted to that TSH shit when I was testing my friend playing affinity.

Hah. And forget about the whole comment thing. To be honest, I think I might have posted that second comment when I was drunk, or um, something..

[bakofried]

Actually, I was able to test against budget Affinity, back when I was just starting?
I had 4 Goblin Tinkerer's in the board. That MU was HILarious. He never had a land....
Anyway, I do want around 6 removal spells. I'm just debating between a 4/2, 3/3, or a 2/4 split between Incinerator/Scourger. The funny thing; no one runs Zoo, so both Gempalm and Scourger serve as t2 GOGO Lackey removal.

[Funky-kun]

I have a tournament I will attend some time ahead, and was planning on the exact goblin decklist I would play. First, I expect around 20 players to show up, and the meta being variable, including these decks:

1-3 Canadian Threshold
1-3 Dredge
1 GW Midrange (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34592)
1 GBW Midrange (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34593)
1 Bant Survival feat. Iona-Retainers
1 Dragon Stompy (3 Firespout SB)
1 Zoo (3 Jitte SB)
1 Death and Taxes (2 Jitte Main, 3 Silver Knight SB)
1 Belcher
1 Enchantress
1 Merfolk / UW Counterslivers
1 Affinity
1 4 Color Landstill (3 Pernicious Deed Main, 4 Goyfs SB)

Aside from the Dragon Stompy Firespouts and the occasional Blue Blast, I expect no dedicated goblin hate (like Pyroclasms or Plagues).

Here's the list I've come up with.

17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Soaring Seacliffs

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Warren Instigator
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain

4 Aether Vial

The only thing about the main I'm really debating are the Seacliffs. I am hoping on their surprise factor against creature-heavy decks, also there aren't many decks with vulnerable manabases for me to pray on. I know I'll miss the Ports in the Enchantress matchup, but if Seacliffs ends up stealing games by making Instigator connect against creature-based decks, it will be worth it. Your thoughts?

Also, I've decided on no Stingscourger mainboard, as there are no Dreadnaughts or Tombstalkers around. I believe that they are unrealistic as an answer against Iona.

Here's the SB I am considering:

4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Anarchy
1 Goblin Tinkerer

OK, here's the breakdown.

4 Relics are solid as an Thresh answer.
4 Ravenous Traps I believe are the best hate for dredge. I also have access to Macabres and Crypts, maybe I should use a mix?
I'm debating on the combo hate slot. I believe Mindbreak Trap is the best against Belcher, but Chalice can give me a fighting chance against Enchantress. I also have access to Pyrostatic Pillars and Thorn of Amethyst. Actually, is Thorn good against Enchantress?
2 Anarchy seem suited for the meta, as the answer Progenitus, Elspeth, KOTR, Enchatress' lock pieces and beat D&T by themselves.
1 Tinkerer as an out to Jitte and <3 Affinity.

I do not have a lot of matchup experience against Bant Survival, should I board relics as anti-Goyf and anti-Iona?
Also, do you believe Pyrokineses are required?

[JonBarber]

Mindbreak trap is good against belcher game 2, but once they know you play it, its fairly easy to dodge. Chalice is pretty brutal against them, but doesn't stop the t1 win game 3 and they can still go off through chalice @ 0. If the belcher pilot is decent, use chalice. If they are so-so, use mindbreak trap.

I always considered leyline of the void better agianst dredge because they run unmask and cabal therapy which shut down rav trap, but without splashing black leyline is definitely a little worse. Just keep in mind that game three any experienced player will know how to dodge the trap.

I'm surprised to see only 4 creature removal in such a creature heavy meta. I like to run 1 stingscourger main that can be tutored for when needed, but without reanimator in the meta I guess its excusable.

[danielcrocker]

I personally like chalice over mindbreak trap because it can be used against more decks in the meta.
belcher:chalice-0
ad nauseam:chalice-1or0
enchantress:chalice-1or2
reanimator:chalice-1

As far as Iona goes, I think stingscourger should be played as well as relic for another option against her. Not to mention 1st turn lackey, 2nd turn stingscourger is money in the bank. Maybe -1 seige gang -1 gempalm +2 stingscourgers?

Also have you tested against zoo? I think pyrokinesis is needed in regards to that MU and can also be played against dredge. Maybe take out some graveyard hate, 8 slots is kind of overkill. In my experience with GYH I personally play crypts and macabres. With goblins, during the S.C.G. 5k L.A., I found that relics were too slow against dredge especially if they had l.e.d's. but on the hand they are really good against thresh. I really don't like ravenous trap because it's only good against dredge where relic, crypt, macabres are good against multiple decks.

2 anarchy
1 tinkerer (or try to maindeck)
4 chalice of the void
3 pyrokinesis
3 relics
2 macabres (or crypt)

[JonBarber]

Agreed. Pyrokinesis is also good against belcher when they go the goblins route.

[danielcrocker]

have you tested the seacliffs much?

[danielcrocker]

JonBarber what list do you run ...i'm trying to finalize my gobs deck and I want to see what players prefer.

[Funky-kun]

@JonBarber

Thanks for the info.



I personally like chalice over mindbreak trap because it can be used against more decks in the meta.
belcher:chalice-0
ad nauseam:chalice-1or0
enchantress:chalice-1or2
reanimator:chalice-1


The problem with chalice is that it does not stop t1 kills, and also it is possible for Belcher to go off through it set @0. I love how it works against Enchantress thought, stopping Grass is crucial for buying time. With my testing I have come to the conclusion that it is not worth it to board against Thresh, and there are no other decks vulnerable to it around.



As far as Iona goes, I think stingscourger should be played as well as relic for another option against her. Not to mention 1st turn lackey, 2nd turn stingscourger is money in the bank. Maybe -1 seige gang -1 gempalm +2 stingscourgers?


First turn Lackey, second turn Stingscourger is hot, and that is the main reason why I am trying the Seacliffs in the deck. The thing is, other than Iona there are no worthy targets, the Gempalms work very good with the abundance of smaller creatures, and playing 12 cheater spells and 23 lands really gets the most out of Siege-gang. Seriously, he's the nuts. We all know that Goblins are tight on deck space, and I believe the Scourgers are not worth, with just 1 Zoo and little fatties.



Also have you tested against zoo? I think pyrokinesis is needed in regards to that MU and can also be played against dredge. Maybe take out some graveyard hate, 8 slots is kind of overkill. In my experience with GYH I personally play crypts and macabres. With goblins, during the S.C.G. 5k L.A., I found that relics were too slow against dredge especially if they had l.e.d's. but on the hand they are really good against thresh. I really don't like ravenous trap because it's only good against dredge where relic, crypt, macabres are good against multiple decks.


I do not have plentiful match experience against Zoo, but I do not expect more than one Zoo player to show up to the event. I think that Pyrokinesis is not worth for boarding in many other matchups. However, you are right that 8 graveyard hate might be overkill. Still, with lots of Dredge, Thresh and an Iona lurking around I want to be sure. When I get to testing against dredge, we'll see what mix of hate is the best. Thanks for the tips.



have you tested the seacliffs much?


I have played little games with them so far, with mixed feelings. Once I am finished with finals, I will thoroughly test with it and share my impressions. If you have any input on them, feel free to contribute. I know other guys have had some success with them.

Do you guys believe Thorn works against Enchantress? I know it is kinda slow against Belcher, but its a lot more definite... :rolleyes:

[danielcrocker]

I haven't tested it but I'm guessing it would really get annoying, especially if they are trying to pay for grass early on. Late game I don't really see it being effective when they have a billion mana and they drop moat but hopefully they are dead by then.

[GoboLord]

@ Funny Kun:
I wouldn't call that:
1 GW Midrange
1 GBW Midrange
1 Bant Survival feat. Iona-Retainers
1 Dragon Stompy (3 Firespout SB)

"Not many fatties". Stingscourger is a must-have, especially when you run into Iona with a MONO R list. You can simply keep your Vial on 2.
You can't rely on your Gempalm Incinerator, cause the Midrange decks use StP/PtE in resp so you dont have enough Goblins.
I would run Pyrostatic Pillar rather than Chalice. We had tis discussion like 2 pages ago, maybe our reasoning makes sense to you if you read it (I dont want to repost the arguments here).

[Funky-kun]

You make some interesting points about Pillar, which I somehow managed to skip, although I am reading this thread. Too bad it is not as effective vs storm combo. With your help I have enough stuff to test, so when I have some testing-based conclusions, I will share them.