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Eldariel
08-01-2007, 05:01 PM
While I don't have any real life tournament data to back it, I had made a switch already in my MWS lists from the land disruption suite to Tombs + more mountains. Originally I had thought of just adding tombs then a few more duals to splash into white or black, and had overlooked burrows, but that's something worth testing. Also, I don't run Pyromancer, but I do run Sharpshooter as I feel that it can be inherently devastating in the mirror or against survival variants (particularly when you catch someone off guard with it), with tomb it can be fast enough to answer ETW preboard (and you have sharpshooter + Ritual and EE post board), and it can be great against random aggro decks in aiding the removal or providing source of non-combat damage to your opponent in conjunction with SGC and Fanatic. I really like Sharpshooter, still.

As for my games online with Goblins, I like the tomb. I've missed it since the Food Chain days but never really had the balls to drop Wasteland or Ports, but now I feel the speed it offers is more important than the tempo disruption. Turn 2 Sharpshooters and matrons, or even ringleaders and turn 3 SGCs after you lackey in a warchief are some good. I'll give the burrows a test.

I tested Tombs long ago, along with few Moxes and I can honestly say that they're truly incredible here. Only thing is, I like my Wastes and Ports so I haven't changed the 'normal' list I post here, but I've got a 3-Tomb 2-Mox using version built and it works great. The deck has so incredibly large colourless costs that Tomb just accelerates you by a turn's worth of mana.

SpatulaOfTheAges
08-01-2007, 05:09 PM
If you did add those lands, what would you guys think of Null Rod in the SB.

Sphere of Resistance is another thought. Null Rod is probably going to be better vs. Belcher/Equipment though.


Another thought; has anyone tried Goblin Assassin vs. Thresh? I know it's 5 mana, but so is SGC, and with Tomb I think it might be doable.

Another nother thought; what about Prospector MD? With Tomb and Prospector, I think you give yourself a better plan B(SGC+Sharpshooter+Prospector) if the straight beats fall through. This gives you an out to Thresh's wall of superior creatures.

Eldariel
08-01-2007, 05:34 PM
Assassin was an awesome reanimator-killer, but I'm not sure if it's really any better than SCG against Threshold. I'm wondering if you really want it all to hinge on coinflips and a 5-drop resolving. If you can drop a 5-drop, SGC might be pretty great. How about Goblin Goon though? Tarmo can't really ever be big enough to fight it and it costs 4. I've always wanted to fit 2-4 in the deck, but curve-reasons, the mirror and SGC have kept him out thus far. Meh, maybe worth a shot? Would also give you increased resiliency to Plague.

Jak
08-01-2007, 07:38 PM
So I think with all these ideas, a list is a good thing to start putting these ideas together. So here it goes.

Lands-22
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Goblin Burrows

Non-Creatures-4
4 Aether Vial

Creatures-34
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

So I guess that would be a basic list, pretty much the same as the old one. Took the land count down to 22 because of the Tombs, but still need to test it out. The things I think could go in are:

Goblin Sharpshooter
Skirk Prospector
Goblin Goon

Now I have no idea what would be good to remove. Any ideas?

Eldariel
08-01-2007, 07:42 PM
Burrows I still suggest against. Manadenial is too important a part of your strategy to completely cut and Tomb just makes it stronger. Either play Ports or Wastes with Tombs (or even both in less-than-full quantities along with less-than-4 Tombs), but don't cut 'em both entirely. It'll hurt the deck more than they're worth.

Jak
08-01-2007, 07:54 PM
Yeah, but I have barely tested the list at all, so you may be right. I did a little (like 3 games) of testing on MWS and found Tomb was working very well. Burrows was a little different. It sometimes helped a lot by getting a few extra points, but in another game I never used it once because I would rather be casting creatures. Now, I may want to test Skarrg, the Rage Pits over Burrows, just because Trample could help Piledriver and late game Lackeys swing through. But I still do not know if this is better than Mana Denial because I have won so many games off the back of those 2 land cards.

Tacosnape
08-01-2007, 09:17 PM
If you cut Port and Wasteland you should probably cut Aether Vial too. The synergy between Aether Vial and the mana denial, especially Rishadan Port, is a large part of what makes this deck so incredibly resilient.

If Wasteland is sucking, cut down to 2-3 Wastes and 4 Ports. This will let you run 16-17 sources of red, making your draws incredibly consistent. Having double Red ASAP is far more important now than ever before given the importance of Tin-Street Hooligan and Engineered Explosives.

Eldariel
08-01-2007, 10:12 PM
Eh, I just threw together something to resemble the 3-colour lists talked earlier. I think this looks about right:


3 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Krosan Grip
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tranquil Domain
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Some questionable cuts like a Piledriver, but I needed to fit enough Therapies and the critical MD Sharpshooter to claim a decent shot against combo-decks G1 with Therapy stealing quite a few games and Sharpshooter giving an out from Warrens. SB just has classic Goblin-tuning á la Sonne and then those few handy non-Goblins spell, including now-very-castable-at-3 Engineered Explosives. One Mountain of course sucks, but still, you've got a Mountain too if you need coloured mana and fear Waste. All in all, it looks very stretched-thin list, but might just work still. 30 Goblins. 7 Non-Goblins. 23 Lands. All relevant numbers (lands, Goblins) seem to be at the minimum acceptable level and there's enough combo-hate in the MD to matter.

TheGoblinGeneral4
08-07-2007, 10:39 AM
IMHO, Tin street hooligan is the best new goblin(for green splash) they came out with in a while... I wish i had room for 4 MB its that good, I have iced everything from chalice of the void, to moxes, to even a spellbook lol...

anyways, i want to ask your opinion on Goblin Settler as a possible MB, i know its already difficult just to fit 2 hooligans MB, but i was just wondering, especially if you have a meta that can allow such an inclusion, your thoughts?

Joon
08-07-2007, 11:16 AM
But Hooligan sux ballz with Warchief. I tried to support/play him in my Rwg Version but he just sucked.

TheGoblinGeneral4
08-07-2007, 12:08 PM
yeah, but chances are, the artifact you need to kill is in play before you drop warchief, say chalice set to 1 on their first turn or needle set to vial, means no lackey, no vial before you kill it.

Onphyre
08-11-2007, 12:05 AM
Hey here is my RG deck, I was wondering if anyone could give me advice on it. It is a pretty standard build but anything with the MD or especially SB you could help me out with is apreciated since im not sure what would be good for the general meta game after the banning of flash. So here is the list:

Land (23):
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
6 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Artifacts (4):
4 AEther Vial

Creatures (33):
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tin Street Hooligan


Sideboard (15):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

I used to have a mono-R with 2 goblin tinkerers and REB + Tormods Crypt in the SB instead of Chalice and Grip. I also had one Goblin King(Engineered Plague) and 1 Sharpshooter in the SB. MD I had 2 Jitte at one point but found that they were too slow and goblins were too weak to power them up. I feel that this build with the Green splash is more versitile than the Mono-R version though head to head it maybe a little worse because you can wasteland taiga but the addition of Krosan Grip and Tin Street I think more than makes up for it, what do you guys think?

Bovinious
08-11-2007, 12:44 AM
Your MD looks good, although I might run 1 more Taiga. Pyrostatic Pillar SB also doesnt seem so good, with Solidarity on the decline and Storm combo not need 10 storm anymore (and comboing before Pillar lands), that slot is probably better served as Engineered Explosives. My current SB is 4 Chalice, 4 Pyrokinesis, 4 Engineered Explosives, 3 Krosan Grip. Overall it looks good though.

Nosomo.
08-11-2007, 01:47 AM
Hey here is my RG deck, I was wondering if anyone could give me advice on it. It is a pretty standard build but anything with the MD or especially SB you could help me out with is apreciated since im not sure what would be good for the general meta game after the banning of flash. So here is the list:

Land (23):
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
6 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Artifacts (4):
4 AEther Vial

Creatures (33):
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tin Street Hooligan


Sideboard (15):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

I used to have a mono-R with 2 goblin tinkerers and REB + Tormods Crypt in the SB instead of Chalice and Grip. I also had one Goblin King(Engineered Plague) and 1 Sharpshooter in the SB. MD I had 2 Jitte at one point but found that they were too slow and goblins were too weak to power them up. I feel that this build with the Green splash is more versitile than the Mono-R version though head to head it maybe a little worse because you can wasteland taiga but the addition of Krosan Grip and Tin Street I think more than makes up for it, what do you guys think?

Well I would drop 1 tin street hooligan for starters. Why? It has major dyssynergy with warchief, but Tinstreet is too good to pass up for MB but if you feel it doesn't work for you try tinkerer.

I would then also drop 1 Siege Gang for 1 Kiki Jiki, because he can copy any goblin which is major awesomesauce. Which also allows the 3rd turn Goblin win which is unlikely I know but is just awesomesauce when you see it.

I agree somewhat with Bovinious on pillar. If your meta plays Solidarity, SI, Belcher you probably want to run it. But if your meta doesn's have combo do not run it. I would also get rid of Chalice if your Meta doesn't play combo.

calosso
08-11-2007, 02:01 AM
Well I would drop 1 tin street hooligan for starters. Why? It has major dyssynergy with warchief, but Tinstreet is too good to pass up for MB but if you feel it doesn't work for you try tinkerer.

I would then also drop 1 Siege Gang for 1 Kiki Jiki, because he can copy any goblin which is major awesomesauce. Which also allows the 3rd turn Goblin win which is unlikely I know but is just awesomesauce when you see it.

I agree somewhat with Bovinious on pillar. If your meta plays Solidarity, SI, Belcher you probably want to run it. But if your meta doesn's have combo do not run it. I would also get rid of Chalice if your Meta doesn't play combo.

No, you keep the tin-street count as it is. There are so many relevant artifacts in the format. So what is warchief is in play congrats it is the only time it is bad and most of the time if warchief stays in play long enough for you to not use hooligan you should win the game anyway.

Kiki-jiki is win more. If you go in to top deck was with any deck like gro, zoo, or goblins siege-gang is always better.

Also cut a mountain for the 3rd tiaga, sometimes later in the game it is hard to find the green source even of you play 7 fetches, also wasteland is a major issue in the format currently so it shouldn't damage your manabase to badly,

Nosomo.
08-11-2007, 02:37 AM
No, you keep the tin-street count as it is. There are so many relevant artifacts in the format. So what is warchief is in play congrats it is the only time it is bad and most of the time if warchief stays in play long enough for you to not use hooligan you should win the game anyway.

Kiki-jiki is win more. If you go in to top deck was with any deck like gro, zoo, or goblins siege-gang is always better.

Also cut a mountain for the 3rd tiaga, sometimes later in the game it is hard to find the green source even of you play 7 fetches, also wasteland is a major issue in the format currently so it shouldn't damage your manabase to badly,

What artifacts? Except for opposing vials and pithing needle what artifacts are hurtful?

Kiki-jiki is sort of win-more but is very useful in a tight situation with low goblins.

But I agree with your mana base choice in this situation.

Tacosnape
08-11-2007, 03:43 AM
What artifacts? Except for opposing vials and pithing needle what artifacts are hurtful?

Uh, Umezawa's Jitte?

Don't forget T.S. Hooligan (I love calling him this. He's like the T.S. Eliot of Vial Goblins) contributes to mana denial against Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox against decks that depend on these cards to stabilize against Goblins, and that it also picks of random roguery like Juggernauts, Masticores, the ever annoying Cursed Scroll, and everything in Stax and Affinity. I run 3 and would run 4 if I could figure out a way to do so without making the deck worse.

Jak
08-11-2007, 03:48 AM
Jitte, Scepter, Sword of Fire and Ice, Cursed Scroll, and anything else that is random like Smokestack and crap.

Nosomo.
08-11-2007, 04:05 AM
Jitte, Scepter, Sword of Fire and Ice, Cursed Scroll, and anything else that is random like Smokestack and crap.

Well Jitte is run usually only in aggro controls or some agrros and Usually the have powerhouses to keep the jitte beatsing alive and to benefit from it so kill the creatures and they stop on kill the one jitte since all decks that run jitte do not run many kill that 1 with a TS and you have boughten yourself enough time usually.

Scepter:TS does nothing against it that is what sideboard Krosan Grips are for orim's chant lock.

Sword of Fire and Ice: Fish usually only runs this and almost all their creatures only have 1 backsides, target the creatures and same as Jitte the artifact is useless.

Cursed Scroll: Only Pikula runs this and if the pull this out and are at mid game to use it efficiently enough it is going to be tough to win anyway but only 1 TS is needed for this and if they get out 2 and have the mana to use them then it is usually GG anyway unless you have already gotten them almost dead.

Smokestack:It is so random to see stax at a tournie but if I see one those Grips come in handy and I might lose the first round to stax but I am willing to take the risk.

ForceofWill
08-11-2007, 04:18 AM
I've played so many matches with Goblins and I have to say tin street is mvp I only wish I could fit more in the deck..

Nosomo.
08-11-2007, 04:27 AM
I've played so many matches with Goblins and I have to say tin street is mvp I only wish I could fit more in the deck..

He is a house I just choose to run 1 because I value creature contol higher than artifact kill. Then leave side for that. When I played goblins 3 TS side and 4 Grips side. It was dissynergy to draw a TS when they have no artifact when you could draw a all around creature.

SpatulaOfTheAges
08-11-2007, 09:26 AM
Kiki isn't necessarily win-more. It could be techy in the Cephalid Breakfast match-up.

Bane of the Living
08-11-2007, 10:41 AM
Kiki isn't necessarily win-more. It could be techy in the Cephalid Breakfast match-up.

The deck already has Mogg Fanatic against CB what more could you ask for!

Then add REB's (Ive gone back to these) and a few Pyrokinesis and your solid.

What is all this naysaying about Tin Street? Are you playing the deck correctly? I come upon the Warchief anti-synergy once every 20 games or so and its not even enough of a problem to lose.

Pyrostatic Pillar has been a bad card for quite some time. Drop a Tarmagoyf and just kill you with it? Storm up to 6 and make 12 goblins??

Onphyre
08-11-2007, 01:09 PM
If Pillar is so bad what should I run instead of it? Crypt seems not as good anymore and neither does REB. Someone suggested Engineered Explosives but are those good enough for SB, what are they used to kill? I might add another Taiga lol the prob is they are expensive to buy and 2 seem to be working fine for me right now with my 7 sac/search lands, but i know 1 more would prob help more than it would hurt incase they double wasteland my 2 taiga's and a little extra chance to get green mana if i need it. For TS i find 2 a useful number, not to many not too little and like most people said the disynergy with warchief is rarley a problem because you do have those grips SB which will b in if you need TS badly anyway and u are getting a 2/1 haste for 1 if chief is in which seems pretty good to me. Thanks for the advice so far just need help on replacing Pillar right now I guess.

Bane of the Living
08-11-2007, 02:19 PM
Explosives takes care of Empty the Warrens which is a scoop em up situation without them. It takes some of the combo off your back from Iggy Pop, TES, and Belcher.

It can also be used to destroy all kinds of goodies such as Jitte, Silver Knight, Engineered Plague (if your playing white) and Tarmagoyf.

Blowing up a Pithing Needle naming Vial and a Nimble Mongoose in one sweep is also game breaking.

Nosomo.
08-11-2007, 04:45 PM
I played at the dual land draft in SD and went from a 2 win in a row in the begining to a end 3-3. Why? Grow was evil. I underestimated the power and players that would use Goyf so I focused on Artifact kill with 3 TS main and I regreted it. R/G is not very viable anymore because of goyf. If Grow can stop you to a certain extent Goyf can plow them to a win. I had 2 kenisis main and I couldn't even come close to a win against them. Then when I boarded out TS for more creature kill they board in 2 more Needles.
And for Bane overthere, I love explosives that is dangereous and techy but seems right is the SB.

thefreakaccident
08-11-2007, 07:42 PM
how many of you guys advocate the use of the goblin goon?
I played against goblins twice at the same event Nosomo has been talking about, and the only reason that I had lost those matches was because I had never heard of that such card, which both had been running.

I can see the body fitting right in, and your opponent will rarely run more creatures than you... especially if you run it as a 1-2 of in the deck.

is this just a rogue idea that they came up with, or just something not condoned by the goblin community?

in a high goblin meta do you guys ever consider running 1 pyromancer main to wrath the opp. EOT so you can kill them your turn?

what would you board against the mirror in that case?

ForceofWill
08-11-2007, 08:18 PM
IBA has run goon in goblins in the past. I personally don't like him because if you have more creatures than your opponent you should be winning. as a tutor target I'd rather have ringleader every almost 99% of the time for the same mana and against plague if they are playing black they can remove him if hes your only guy or just play more creatures while you sit under plague.

As for pyromancer he isn't always a wrath of god. I've played the mirror against a player with pyromancer many times and usually what they will do is not over commit and try to use pyromancer while I have a ton of guys. If they aren't over commiting then I'll usually have a gempalm in hand and just save mana cause I see it coming. In the end they tap out for mancer and I gempalm him before eot and sit with overwhelming board position.

Tacosnape
08-12-2007, 03:32 AM
If Pillar is so bad what should I run instead of it? Crypt seems not as good anymore and neither does REB. Someone suggested Engineered Explosives but are those good enough for SB, what are they used to kill?

Explosives are a meta call for Threshold and similar type Blue-based aggro control decks, as well as things packing Empty the Warrens. I like them personally due to their ability to be backup Engineered Plague slayers.

And when did Tormod's Crypt cease to be good in the eyes of the Legacy community? We're talking a card that doesn't slow you down in the slightest to cast that disrupts a lot of shit. Namely two of those new-fangled combo decks running around, Kid Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast. It also hurts things like Iggy Pop, gives you outs against the ever underplayed Reanimator, can slow Survival in a pinch, and is just generally awesome. Sure, it doesn't single-handedly shut any of these decks down, as most decks can recover from a Crypt, but the Crypt isn't the only thing you're throwing at them. It's just an additional little card that can buy you a couple turns for 0 mana, and with Goblins that's generally all you'll need.

Personally, I just offed Chalice and decided to soak up my losses against Storm Combo (The match isn't even good if we -are- packing hate), and went with Pyrokinesis/Grip/Needle/Crypt in 4/4/4/3 increments, and have been quite satisfied with the results. I keep Explosives handy (Like, in the box, unsleeved) if I expect Tarmogoyfs or Empty the Warrens, though.

264505
08-12-2007, 08:59 AM
I thought goblin goon was more of a meta call like sharpshooter or Kiki-Jiki, it may warrant some thought now that it dwarfs Tarmogoyf on most occations.

Illissius
08-13-2007, 11:24 AM
I just found an interesting mono red counter to Engineered Plague: Gauntlet of Might. Sounds silly (and awesome), but no more so than Dralnu's Crusade or Nevinyrral's Disk. Thoughts?

Tacosnape, what ever happened with the Dryad Arbor version you were trying? Turned out to be bad?

Sims
08-13-2007, 11:40 AM
Gauntlet might be worth while in a version running Tombs for acceleration as it'll be able to play it more consistantly and possibly sooner, and alleviate any stress caused by Tomb since your mountains all turn into a 2-mana land. Drawbacks I could see are the fact that it is a 4 mana artifact, making it a tad slow and vulnerable to common removal. Not to mention it's price, as an ABU card it's gunna run you probably 50 or 60 a rip if not a little more.

I still feel that the +1/+1 answers aren't as good as a flat removal effect, but they certainly help, and this one is a surprise option, even if an expensive one.

Illissius
08-13-2007, 12:13 PM
I still feel that the +1/+1 answers aren't as good as a flat removal effect

Obviously enough; it's only worth considering for versions without any of those available (black splash or none at all).

Incidentally, the list I was looking at while suggesting it does have Tombs in it.

Tacosnape
08-13-2007, 01:34 PM
Tacosnape, what ever happened with the Dryad Arbor version you were trying? Turned out to be bad?

Yep. Dryad Arbor blows.

Also, Black-splash should just run a third-color red dual and run Engineered Explosives. It and Therapy are usually enough to handle Plague. As for mono-colored, I'd just run 4 Kings.

Eldariel
08-13-2007, 01:48 PM
Yep. Dryad Arbor blows.

Also, Black-splash should just run a third-color red dual and run Engineered Explosives. It and Therapy are usually enough to handle Plague. As for mono-colored, I'd just run 4 Kings.

I strongly suggest Patron and Goons over 4 Kings since those Kings aren't gonna be enough and they'll end up dead draws.

Tacosnape
08-13-2007, 03:14 PM
I strongly suggest Patron and Goons over 4 Kings since those Kings aren't gonna be enough and they'll end up dead draws.

I'll take your word for it. Fortunately I don't run Mono-Red and don't see any reason to with Tin-Street and Krosan Grip being as amazing as they are.

NQN
08-13-2007, 04:38 PM
Hello, i wanna play at a tournament next weekend and before this i will post my list here so u can give me soome useful tips. After the tourney i will describe my expieriences and the result.
THe meta is very difficult because every deck can be there,but i think there will be a lot of random aggro decks and grow/fish decks. The only thing i can say that there won`t be more than 1 combo deck.

Here`s the list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [MI] Mountain (1)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [B] Taiga
4 [B] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [AT] Goblin Matron
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [B] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Do you think i should play SHared Triumph over Krosan Grip? I mean it beats Pyroclasm and Massacre as well as Plague and it won`t be dead.
What do you think?

Greetings,
NQn

PS: Sorry for my bad english, i am at least 16 ;)

264505
08-13-2007, 04:46 PM
Krosan Grip answers stuff like Moat and Solitary Confinement, as well as Jitte and SoFI whish are nasty cards for gobs to face. I also think you need REBs or Pyroblasts in you sideboard to deal with those fish/gro decks you expect to play.

Antknee42
08-13-2007, 05:30 PM
No love for Tranquil Domain? I'm not reading 100 pages of forum to confirm this or not, but it seems much better than some of the answers I've seen so far.

Eldariel
08-13-2007, 07:12 PM
I'm presently playing 2 Tranquil Domains and 3 Krosan Grips in my anti-Plague/enchantment slots, so yes, some play them. The slot is a bit sketchy though as Patron is usually a better answer to the actual plague as it has the tendency to deadify your opponent very fast, while Domain forces you to continue from where you left off. Against other decks such as Enchantress and base-white control, Domain is incredible and since it does a servicable job against Plagues too, which is the reason I'm playing it over Patron at the present. I wouldn't even consider actually replacing Grip with Domain though, since Grip has the ability to take out critical artifacts at the critical time while allowing removing Plagues through counters, which is always valuable. It's also a way to solve a billion random problems which are bound to show up during a tournament.

Citrus-God
08-15-2007, 01:55 PM
// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Taiga
3 [B] Badlands
5 [MI] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [PT] Boiling Seas
SB: 1 [SH] Ruination
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [FUT] Bitter Ordeal


Bitter Ordeal is probably the worst slot ever for the Sideboard.

I love the deck so far. It answers combo, Thresh, and Plagues so well. I wouldnt go so far and say Burning Wish sucks, from my short testing so far, I must say I love it.

Tacosnape
08-15-2007, 02:53 PM
// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Taiga
3 [B] Badlands
5 [MI] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [PT] Boiling Seas
SB: 1 [SH] Ruination
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [FUT] Bitter Ordeal


A Land Grant seems like it would be a fantastic slot in that sideboard. It'll get you your Taiga for turn 3 with a Red-Land / Wasteland (Or any 2-land) hand so you can drop out a Warchief next turn.

Citrus-God
08-15-2007, 03:53 PM
A Land Grant seems like it would be a fantastic slot in that sideboard. It'll get you your Taiga for turn 3 with a Red-Land / Wasteland (Or any 2-land) hand so you can drop out a Warchief next turn.

That's not a bad idea... here's my SB so far...


1 Land Grant
1 Patriach's Bidding
1 Reverent Silence
1 Boiling Seas
1 Anarchy
1 Ruination
1 Perish
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-In
1 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

Simply put, the silver bullets in this deck are amazing....

Right now, I'm trying to fit Regrowth into the SB so that the 2nd Wish will become another threat.

Best play of the day; I wished for Cave-In against CRET Belcher after they EtW for 12 tokens...

Tacosnape
08-15-2007, 06:04 PM
That's not a bad idea... here's my SB so far...

1 Land Grant
1 Patriach's Bidding
1 Reverent Silence
1 Boiling Seas
1 Anarchy
1 Ruination
1 Perish
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-In
1 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy


I used to run the Burning Wish variant also.

Tsunami's a better choice than Boiling Seas. This will keep your Island-breaker from being countered by Blue Elemental Blast. Granted, they might blast the Burning Wish, but they might be tapped out when you Wish, and if they're blasting Wishes, you can use Wish simply to bait the Blasts.

I ran Virtue's Ruin, but in hindsight, Anarchy would be the better choice.

Regrowth is not a bad choice either. Regrowth brings back Ringleaders, Wastelands, or whatever bomb you spent your first Burning Wish for.

I also don't know that between Wasteland and Port (Although I see you aren't -running- port, which changes things) if you'd need Ruination. I'd be tempted to make that another Duress.

Citrus-God
08-15-2007, 08:43 PM
I used to run the Burning Wish variant also.

Tsunami's a better choice than Boiling Seas. This will keep your Island-breaker from being countered by Blue Elemental Blast. Granted, they might blast the Burning Wish, but they might be tapped out when you Wish, and if they're blasting Wishes, you can use Wish simply to bait the Blasts.

Sometimes it's hard keeping a Green source open after you cast Wish. Besides, I think Boiling Seas puts less strain on the mana base. I might consider having Tsunami in a Threshold heavy metagame.



Regrowth is not a bad choice either. Regrowth brings back Ringleaders, Wastelands, or whatever bomb you spent your first Burning Wish for.

Personally, I think that warrants some testing.


I also don't know that between Wasteland and Port (Although I see you aren't -running- port, which changes things) if you'd need Ruination. I'd be tempted to make that another Duress.


Port might be better than Wasteland, but Wasteland is proactive. I cant judge really.

dlevsApiJ
08-18-2007, 12:05 PM
Hello.

I'm new on this forum, and my english isn't very good. I haven't enough time to read all the pages of this topic (also cause my english isn't very good), so i ask soms questions, and sorry if they already have been asked or something.

My 1st question, why you play the Burning Wish? In my opinion, they arent good in this deck (but maybe that's cause i come from Europe, and here is the meta more Aggro/Aggro-control) VS which decks the Wishes are good? (i mean the card wich you search with the Wish? So i can look if it's my Meta, why i think they aren't good.

Then my second quesion, why most of you play Tin-Street Hooligan, instead of Goblin Tinkerer, if you have a Goblin Warchief, you can't use the Hooligan to destroy a Arti/Enchantment, and the Tinkerer just become better. Warchief is a goblin that you want to play (almost) each game, so i think Tinkerer is better, cause he has a good sinergy whit a goblin you (almost) always want to play, why should you play a goblin that doesnt work good what Goblin Warchief? Tinkerer can also destroy more artifacts sometimes, Hooligan always only 1 and sometimes 0.

Than the 3th: why most people here dont play white? of is that because of America hasn't very much aggro decks? and that here in Europe, you need them harder? (i don't know the American meta very good, o only know that in America they play more combo (solidarity especially).

Ok, the list i play at the moment:
Creatures (31)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Other spells (7)
4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

Land (22)
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Plateau
4 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Jotün Grunt
3 Disenchant
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Slots

This is a good list in my Meta, the random Sharphooter kills very many decks (the most combo decks being played play EtW, and very mane players play Aggro) and you can shoot much damaga on a player when creatures die when they attack/block/been sacced for damage ore whatever... In this meta, he is Really good, so please dont say that i have to cut him, that is because of the difference in Meta's.
Also the Kiki is a card not everyone plays here, it dont want to cut him, he is late game a killer, almost every goblin in the deck is good to copie.

But 1 thing 1 want to change about my build, i want to splash green, but keep the white slpash, so play R/g/w. I think about this list:

Creatures (31)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Other spells (7)
4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

Land (22)
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Jotün Grunt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tranquil Domain

I havent tested this list, its something i have made now very fast, but i am going to test it, maybe someone has soms tips? Before i am going to test it (tips for an aggro/aggro-control meta please) cause i think much things can be better....

Sorry for my Bad english, hope everything is good enough to read.

~Jip

Eldariel
08-18-2007, 01:20 PM
Well, Solidarity has waned in the US quite a long time ago and the combo-presence is largely Belcher, Storm-combo and apparently Cephalid Breakfast now. People play aggro here too, but Rg players are confident that we can beat aggro-decks without Swords to Plowshares and we'd just rather draw more Goblins for Gempalm Incinerators and attacking.

Tin Street Hooligan destroys problem artifacts (Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, Aether Vial, etc.) and can help the mana denial plan too. We don't play Tinkerer, because Goblin Warchief is the first target for many players with their kill-spells and so you can't trust on having a Warchief active. It dies too much to rely on, and without Warchief, Tin Street is vastly superior as it doesn't die before it gets to use its ability (in the mirror, opponent can kill your Tinkerer and win because of his Vial, Tin Street kills the Vial when he comes into play so no such problems). Tin Street also has a nice power for beatdown when not killing artifacts.


The reason most players here prefer Rg to Rw is that we don't fear creature-decks and believe the core of the deck is strong enough against those as it stands, and the problems the deck does have (artifacts, enchantments) are better solved with green than white. Neither does much against combo and I think a case can be made for white too, but green is great if you're a strong player as it gives you the tools to win most games without mising, just by playing your tutors and draw in a smart fashion.


Rgw is possible, for one reason: Ray of Revelation. It's the only real reason to splash both colours and it gives you a very powerful answer to Plagues and other decks with strong enchantments (Humility, Moat, Elephant Grass, etc.), and an answer that doesn't mind being discarded either.


Kiki-jiki is too bad to play: Siege-Gang Commander is always better. If you want Kiki over Siege, you're going for an overkill. If opponent Wraths, you'll always want Siege-Gang Commander. On an empty board, to come back, you need Siege-Gang Commander (opponent can kill the Commander itself and still be left dealing with 3 tokens). Also, Commander is a way to kill opponents that prevent attacking, which is very important in a world of Moats, Orim's Chants, Ghostly Prisons, Maze of Iths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vales and company. You should never play Kiki until you've got 4 Siege-Gang Commanders in your deck, they fit the same slot and Siege-Gang Commander does everything better except overkilling.

Tacosnape
08-18-2007, 01:41 PM
Rgw is possible, for one reason: Ray of Revelation. It's the only real reason to splash both colours and it gives you a very powerful answer to Plagues and other decks with strong enchantments (Humility, Moat, Elephant Grass, etc.), and an answer that doesn't mind being discarded either.

Agreed on Ray of Revelation. I'm glad someone else finally realizes how ridiculous that card is.

RGW offers access to other cards as well, though. Engineered Explosives and Orim's Chant are mentioned periodically, but I think a very overlooked possibility is Armageddon. With Landstill and other control decks on the rise and the ever annoying 43 Land continuing to poke around from time to time, this seems like as good a time as any to re-explore the Geddonator.

HdH_Cthulhu
08-18-2007, 02:55 PM
I think every one should play 1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker because of his awesomnes!
This guy gives you so much against control! This goblin lets use you your best CIP every turn and you could make the funny piledrivertrick for the win!

Eldariel
08-18-2007, 03:07 PM
I think every one should play 1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker because of his awesomnes!
This guy gives you so much against control! This goblin lets use you your best CIP every turn and you could make the funny piledrivertrick for the win!

OR you could play Siege-Gang Commander if you wanted a good card instead. All up to you though, I'm not forcing anything down your throat. Seriously, against control, you'll get sweeped. After a sweeper, Kiki is a 2/2 Haste. Siege-Gang is a 5/5 'ping your face for lots' for the same cost. Seriously, if you can actually benefit of Kiki against control over having Siege-Gang Commander in the same slot, you're doing something wrong.

Siege-Gang wins against:
Sweepers
Attack-stoppers
Blockers
Lifegain Removal
Early game with Lackey breakthrough

Kiki wins against:
Blockers
(Attack-stoppers (copying Mogg Fanatic FTW))
Early game with Lackey breakthrough


Seriously, Siege-Gang does so many more things so much better it's not even funny. Kiki is also prone to dying to removal or having the to-be-copied creature removed thus doing absolutely nothing for his price. Do the smart thing. Play Siege-Gang Commander #3/#4 over Kiki-Jiki.

HdH_Cthulhu
08-18-2007, 03:10 PM
Yes you are right but kiki AND commander is not bad!? And for me 4 sgc are to much!

ClearSkies
08-18-2007, 03:18 PM
I thought Engineered Explosives is the reason to run two splashes in Goblins?
It stops multiple plagues, go around discard after it hits play, and can be used for other stuff besides plague.

I always run Armageddon in the sideboard too. This card seals game against people who are a little behind. I find it to be really good when combined with ports and wastelands.

dlevsApiJ
08-18-2007, 03:21 PM
Thanks for the tips :).

First: i keep playing Kiki, he is better in some situations than SCG, copying Piledriver or Sharpshooter is Very good, and I don't want to play more than 2 SCG's.
Ray of Revelation is very good, better than the Grip, if he is countered, you can play it the second time, whit in total as much mana as a Korsan Grip, Grip is only better against an active Jitte ore something.
Engineered Explosives is also a very good card :). But is it good in this deck? Because you play very cheap creatures? Against what decks it is good? Or what cards?

I think about this SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Jotun Grunt
2/3 Korsan Grip
2/3 Ray of Revelation
I dont play the Engineered Explosives, cause i think they arent good in this deck, with al this cheap creatures. And should i play 3 Grips and 2 Ray's ore 2 Grips en 3 Ray's?

O, and my Mainboard, is that looking good? whit al that cards I only play 3 times? I only play 22 land, and i want to play 23, what should i cut?

Mvg

Eldariel
08-19-2007, 08:36 AM
Yes you are right but kiki AND commander is not bad!? And for me 4 sgc are to much!

The fact remains that if you want to optimize your chances of winning, Siege-Gang is better. SGC simply does so much nothing else in the deck works for so you need a ready access to it; it also wins stalemates just as well as Kiki while it just happens to trump opposing Kikis (by killing what he's copying in response, then killing the Kiki itself). No, they aren't bad together, but that's what we call 'win more'; a second Siege-Gang should be more than enough to win. If you don't win with 8 Goblins and the ability to shoot them to the face for 2 damage a piece, something is horribly, horribly wrong.

Engineered Explosives are alright for the following reason:
-They kill all Empty the Warrens-tokens for measly 2 mana, a good answer to combo.
-They blow up Engineered Plagues, a slow answer to it, but an answer anyways.
-They blow up 2-drop creatures from aggro/control like Tarmogoyf, Werebear and company. You only play Piledriver and Tin Street at that point and you draw more cards than your opponent and your guys are expendable, so it's no problem if you lose few of your 2-drops to off two big beasts on the opposing side.

dlevsApiJ
08-19-2007, 10:17 AM
About the Kiki, that's true, i think 1 Cut the Kiki for my 23th land (the 3th mountain). And the E Explosives, i havent any space for them in the SB, al the other cards are more important...

Mvg

Eldariel
08-19-2007, 11:14 AM
People usually play Explosives in the slot where you've got Jotun Grunts in. I think you should go 3 Rays, 2 Grips if you MD 2-3 artifact kill Goblins. If you have only 1, you'll need 3 Grips to deal with problem artifacts.

dlevsApiJ
08-19-2007, 12:19 PM
Yes, cause i need 1 Shooter for my meta, i only play 1 anti artifact goblins (I am testing between Hooligan and Tinkerer) and my SB is like 3 Grips and 2 Rays, exactly what you say :).

But i wont cut the Grunt's very many ******** decks, most tournaments 2 in the T8. And also much decks with LftL. I have played 4 Tournaments with the Grunts, and i was only been paired 1 time Against *****, and no time against decks with LftL (even not in the T8's) but that is coincidence. With the Grunts (and against ***** CotV on 1 and 2) i win it "very easy". Against the Loam decks Tormod's Crypt is better, but i see more ***** in my Meta.. Grunt is also a big Creature...
But LftL is played more and more, so sometimes if i see more Loam decks on a tournament, i play the Crypt's instead of the Grunt's.

Mvg

Onphyre
08-20-2007, 01:33 PM
Given the recent succes of Thresh at the Legacy Championships is it a good idea to run Tormod's Crypt over say something like Pyrostatic Pillar in the SB? Let me know what you guys think.

calosso
08-20-2007, 01:35 PM
Given the recent succes of Thresh at the Legacy Championships is it a good idea to run Tormod's Crypt over say something like Pyrostatic Pillar in the SB? Let me know what you guys think.

No, crypt does nothing vs tarmogoyf. In some cases it makes him even bigger. The only thing crypt does is give nimble mongoose -2/-2.

zulander
08-20-2007, 01:39 PM
The best thing to do is play goblins with the green splash, move the tin-streets to the board and insert 4 tarmogoyf. That is all.

dlevsApiJ
08-20-2007, 02:15 PM
You have no space for 4 of them, you have to cut cards you need..... Most people play 1-2 Tin-Street/Tinkerer, son you have to cut more cards... And you dont want that. You even want to play Tin-Street/Tinkerer.

Mvg

zulander
08-20-2007, 02:17 PM
What's the green splash list again? I don't remember all the cards.

dlevsApiJ
08-20-2007, 02:18 PM
There isnt A list, everyone plays with cards that are needed in his/here meta.

Illissius
08-20-2007, 02:45 PM
I have no fewer than four builds I'm kicking around right now -- a straight red version with Tombs and Goons, and Jitte and Price in the side; a white splash for Swords, and Shared Triumph, Chant, Armageddon, Disenchant sideboarded; black for Snuff Out, with Duress and Therapy in the board; and a double splash for black and green, with T.S. Hooligan main, and Explosives, Duress, Therapy, and Snuff in the side. I honestly like all of them, so I'm not sure which is best; it probably depends on the metagame.

This must be some kind of stupid rogue psychology thing, because I know I had no interest in the deck back when it was good.

TheFatalOne
08-20-2007, 03:27 PM
Here is my current list. It's doing really well lately.

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Pilerdriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshare

SB:
3 Disenchant
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Armageddon


Critique away!

Illissius
08-20-2007, 03:35 PM
I wouldn't cut a Fanatic, with Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid running around these days.

dlevsApiJ
08-20-2007, 03:56 PM
4 Fanatics is enough i think, i play 3 of them, but there also isnt much room for a 4th.

If i where you, i should cut
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin King
for 3 lands, cause you play 4 ports and 4 wasteland, you need more color mana.

Mvg

Tacosnape
08-20-2007, 06:38 PM
I think it's inaccurate to say Crypt does -nothing- against Tarmogoyf. It can often end up with a net of -1/-1 or -2/-2 to the Goyf, especially when you consider that a lot of times they're going to Force your Vial so you'll have an artifact in your yard anyway. Not that this is terribly amazing or worth the slot, but just saying. On occasion it'll bring that bad boy within Incinerator range.

Crypt becomes a decent board-in against some versions of Threshold that have a third threat that has Threshold beyond Mongoose or Goyf, be it Werebear or Fledgling Dragon. I certainly don't think it's worth it to run Crypt strictly for Threshold, but if you have them, it may be worth bringing them in. It's worth noting that Crypt is strong against both Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid, and as such, a few Crypts would have been pretty damn solid against that Gencon T8.

(And don't be a moron and tell me Crypt doesn't hurt Ichorid. It does. It just doesn't singlehandedly shut the deck down. So what if they can restart the engine? You're still going to take 20+ cards out with the Crypt. Combined with the Mogg Fanatic, Ichorid becomes a cakewalk.)


What's the green splash list again? I don't remember all the cards.

The maindeck looks something like this, usually:

23 Land, including 6-8 fetches, 4 Taiga, 3-5 Mountain, 6-8 Port/Wasteland, and sometimes a Volcanic Island or Badlands (But not a Plateau*) for Engineered Explosives.
4 Aether Vial
33 Goblins, including the main 28 (4 Lackey/Fanatic/Piledriver/Warchief/Matron/Ringleader/Incinerator), then 2/3 or 3/2 on Hooligan and Siege-Gang Commander.

The board then usually involves combinations of the following cards:

Pyrokinesis
Chalice of the Void
Pyrostatic Pillar
Engineered Explosives
Krosan Grip
Tranquil Domain
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
REB/Pyroblast

*(Not a Plateau, because Volcanic Island and Badlands give you the option of impersonating another deck to try and lure a misplay out of your opponent if you lack a 1-drop. Volcanic impersonates UGR Threshold, Badlands impersonates Red Death.)

Eldariel
08-20-2007, 08:29 PM
How about Planar Void in the black-splash versions? It'd hit Tarmo hard and also hose all those stupid Ichorids and Ceph Breakfast-builds (while not being THE most effective against Life from the Loam due to 'cycle in response', Life itself is a sorcery and it'll still RFG the lands so the card will soon run out of fuel). It'd also annihilate the Threshold-creatures. That or Jotun Grunt seem like the best alternatives as far as grave hate is concerned.

Onphyre
08-20-2007, 09:26 PM
So my SB right now is:

x4 Pyrokinesis
x4 Chalice of the Void
x4 Krosan Grip
x3 ?

Either Pyrostatic Pillar, Tormods Crypt, or REB? What would be best for the general meta game?

Bane of the Living
08-20-2007, 09:39 PM
Yes, cause i need 1 Shooter for my meta, i only play 1 anti artifact goblins (I am testing between Hooligan and Tinkerer) and my SB is like 3 Grips and 2 Rays, exactly what you say :).

But i wont cut the Grunt's very many ******** decks, most tournaments 2 in the T8. And also much decks with LftL. I have played 4 Tournaments with the Grunts, and i was only been paired 1 time Against *****, and no time against decks with LftL (even not in the T8's) but that is coincidence. With the Grunts (and against ***** CotV on 1 and 2) i win it "very easy". Against the Loam decks Tormod's Crypt is better, but i see more ***** in my Meta.. Grunt is also a big Creature...
But LftL is played more and more, so sometimes if i see more Loam decks on a tournament, i play the Crypt's instead of the Grunt's.

Mvg

I dont think everyone should be so quick to shoot down his idea.

Cephalid Breakfast just turned from a decent matchup to a horrid one. A combo deck with Tarmagoyfs is just nasty. He takes tarmagoyfs down better than anything else. Better than Threads of Disloyalty, Smother, Swords, anything at all. It keeps all the other goyfs at bay at the same time whether they're in hand or future goyfs.

Hes got a nice fat body and gets played at your two drop spot to fit in Gob's beautiful curve spot. Hes not a goblin so thats actually a bonus in situations where your opponent plays an Engineered Plague or a COP Red.

Thresh is getting more and more popular and other decks in your meta such as loam and Ichorid are springing up. I think he might be an amazing meta call.

Tacosnape
08-20-2007, 11:17 PM
So my SB right now is:

x4 Pyrokinesis
x4 Chalice of the Void
x4 Krosan Grip
x3 ?

Either Pyrostatic Pillar, Tormods Crypt, or REB? What would be best for the general meta game?

What good is Chalice of the Void anymore, when you get right down to it?

We can't dedicate enough slots to beat storm combo even -with- Chalice as we'll almsot invariably lose game one. Threshold shrugs it off much more effectively now that it packs Spell Snare (Counters Chal-1) and Tarmogoyf (Ignores it and hits you in the mouth.).

So why not just ditch Chalice for Engineered Explosives? This gives you more Plague answers, better answers to random Silver Knight/Jitte decks, better answers to Threshold (Die, Tarmogoyf!), and isn't completely useless against Storm Combo via getting rid of Empty the Warrens.

I'd suggest dropping Chalice for EE and then putting the remaining slots as Crypt.

Also, for what it's worth, Pithing Needle is pretty good too.

Jak
08-20-2007, 11:28 PM
I agree with Taco. Their are too many forms of combo now and chalice is just not great like it was when it was only storm. I think it it time to start looking into goblin fish or something if you want to keep the deck a live. with now just a 50/50 game with thresh and having a bad MU with combo, something needs to be done. So here are cards I think could go in the Sb or MD.

4 Spell Snare
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Extirpate
4 Null Rod
4 Duress
4 Therapy

So I really think we have to pick a color.

Tacosnape
08-21-2007, 01:35 AM
I agree with Taco. Their are too many forms of combo now and chalice is just not great like it was when it was only storm. I think it it time to start looking into goblin fish or something if you want to keep the deck a live. with now just a 50/50 game with thresh and having a bad MU with combo, something needs to be done. So here are cards I think could go in the Sb or MD.

4 Spell Snare
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Extirpate
4 Null Rod
4 Duress
4 Therapy

So I really think we have to pick a color.

I think Green is still the color to go with.

If we're all -that- concerned about opposing Tarmogoyfs, let's run 4 of our own in sideboard. Tarmogoyf + Mogg Fanatic wins the stalemate in a heartbeat.

Seriously, though. Goblins is getting a bad rap here. We might not have the same edge against Threshold that we used to, but Threshold thriving is great for Goblins! Having a 50/50 game against the best deck in Legacy isn't bad at all, and Threshold beats all of our worst matchups! Threshold is a nightmare for Storm Combo. Excellent! If people are afraid to play Storm Combo, they might be more likely to play something we can beat. We'd rather face Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast than any combo deck alive.

Green is solid in those iffy sorts of matchups, like certain Landstill and Survival decks, which will Thrive in a world of Threshold. Krosan Grip rocks Survival, rocks Deed, and answers Plague. It also handles random Humilities or Moats or Counterbalances or whatever.

Whit3 Ghost
08-21-2007, 10:18 AM
Honestly, I think the Black splash would be a great option against Threshold and control metas.

It gives you
Planar Void
Perish/Dystopia (great with dealing with Goyf)
Cabal Therapy(screws control, hard)
Living Death/Bidding
Duress

The one downside is that it makes you worse against cards like Humility, but there are outs in Anarchy and whatnot and just using discard to hit it before it becomes a problem.

dlevsApiJ
08-21-2007, 11:50 AM
Its funny to see every color would be splashed this day except for white, the originel color..
Cutting the CotV is a good idea i think, you have to win 2 games with them against combo (you lose game 1), and that's to much for this deck, and against ***** the EE is better (and all/most combo decks, combo the most of the time with EtW), and if you splash 2 colors, he even becomes better. So Whit3 Ghost, if you splash Black, why you should not also splash green for Grips, or white for Disenchants (and maybe STP/Grunts).

@ Onphyre, i think you only splashed green? Then i should play Tormod's Crypt, in this meta, you really net something anti-grave manipulation, if i were you i should cut 1 Pyrokinesis and play 4 Crypt's.


I play R/g/w, thats very nice (but not so good against combo, but here i dont see that very much), this is the list i play at the moment:

Creatures (30)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan (i test this one at the moment, normally i play Goblin Tinkerer)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Other spells (7)
4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

Land (23)
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2/3 Plateau
2 Taiga
3/4 Mountain

Sideboard (16)
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Jotün Grunt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ray of Revelation
tips for 1 card out of the SB? Should I play a 3th plateau or a 4th mountain (is 7 fetch on 8 mountains enough to many fetch?). And what about Pithinh Needle, maybe i want to play him (instead of Pyrokinesis, that card was especially for the Mirror, but more and more players are going to stop playing goblins, with the Shooter my matchup isnt bad at all (i played 4 tournaments, played 6 times the mirror, 5 times 2-0 ans 1 time 2-1))

Mvg

Tacosnape
08-21-2007, 08:02 PM
With more and more problematic creatures emerging, what are thoughts on taking a second look at Umezawa's Jitte?

It fits the whole question of "What do we do on turn 2" thing, it's a great midgame topdeck, it'll help us fight through Tarmogoyf more effectively, it's amazing in the mirror, and if it gets out in time, it's not bad against Ichorid, as it can not only help keep your opponent off three guys for Dread Return, it can also kill off one of your own guys at instant speed to get rid of Bridge from Below.

TheFatalOne
08-21-2007, 09:43 PM
Jitte seems okay the only prblems are
1) It's not a goblin. This matters because of ringleader.
2) You can't do anything with it until turn three.
3) What do you cut for it? Probably Ringeader.

Personnally I don't want to cut Ringleader. Also, I never have problems against goyf with 7 maindeck answers, 4 Matronable. I think it would just be too slow and a mana investment when you want to be getting ton's of gobbo's.

Sims
08-21-2007, 10:20 PM
Jitte seems okay the only prblems are
1) It's not a goblin. This matters because of ringleader.


Lies. This is the major problem with the take a lot of people have on the deck, how are you fitting in your sideboard answers if you aren't already sacrificing goblin count? Yes you have a chance of flipping it to the bottom with Ringleader, but unfortunately card advantage garnered by Ringleader just isn't enough to win against combo and sometimes it doesn't even turn the tide against Thresh when they've got Goyfs breathing down your neck. Sacrifices are going to have to be made if you want to keep playing the little green men. That's going to start with sacrificing Ringleader consistency for answers to the problem matches, particularly if we're talking post-board. Maindecking hate might be a good idea in certain environments... Perhaps cutting the Arti-hate goblins down to 1 tutorable slot, or even removing it to the board entirely, to maindeck more hate for Thresh or Combo matchups, whichever is more popular in your metagame.

The deck is going to be pushed to either evolve or die. If evolving means sacrificing your Ringleader consistency for extra hate and lowering the utility Goblin counts to a more Goblin Sligh-esque shell to stay competitive then so be it. Staying with the concept that if it's not a goblin it can't be good is not the mindset that should really be held onto right now, particularly in the face of either evolving the deck or having it be pushed to Tier 2 at best if simply for it's ability to sometimes "just win" with the perfect grip.


As for Jitte, it fills the crucial turn 2 when you don't have as many options for plays and gives you access to a lot of utility. It might even be better in the versions of the deck that have given up Port for Ancient Tomb to have greater speed into Matron, Sharpshooter, Ringleader, SCG, etc. Worth a test.

TheFatalOne
08-21-2007, 11:14 PM
Ya I kinda thought about what I said after I posted that and ya ringleader just even getting just one goblin is good none really isn't horrible.:rolleyes: I still wouldn't enjoy taking out my utility spell AKA STP. But what is your opinion on what to take out?

Tacosnape
08-22-2007, 12:51 PM
Has anyone seen Fodder Launch in Lorwyn yet?

The current spoiler shows it as such:

Fodder Launch
3B
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
As an additional cost to play Fodder Launch, sacrifice a Goblin.
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. Fodder Launch deals 5 damage to that creature's controller.

This seems like an interesting answer to Tarmogoyf, and it's also a removal spell that can be nabbed off a Goblin Ringleader or tutored for with a Goblin Matron. Thus Goblins would now have a seekable answer to a Goyf. It might take assistance from a Mogg Fanatic, but hey.

The only drawback is the bizarre fact that if you get one in a graveyard, it's going to pump Tarmogoyf even more as a result of being Tribal.

Thoughts?

B4L4
08-22-2007, 01:22 PM
Fodder Launch....The only drawback is the bizarre fact that if you get one in a graveyard, it's going to pump Tarmogoyf even more as a result of being Tribal.

I do think it's so good against tarmo, cause it can only kill a 3/4 tarmo (SBE are checked before -5-5 apply, so a 4/5 goyf will get the +1+1 bonus from "tribal")
So u need fanatic here(or gemmpalm, but 6 mana in the same turn is hard to get, especially if u are under goyf pressure)

To find slot for Fodder Launch, it mean you should"nt cut fanatic to answer goyf 80% of the time, so it's going to be hard to find room for this

Sanguine Voyeur
08-22-2007, 01:49 PM
Fodder Launch could be best after combat; attack with some goblins into a Tarmogoyf, and kill it after with a launched Lackey or Matron.

Phya
08-22-2007, 03:24 PM
I still run white, and maintain it's the best splash for goblins.

The reasons:
StP is still the best spot removal in the format.
Green gives no tools against combo which is just inexcusable.
I've tried Blue and I just don't see it. It only slightly improves your combo match up while turning your clock and consistency to dog shit.
Black is firmly mediocre in my books. EP resistance is okay as is discard, but I've seen combo decks repeatedly go off through first turn Duress with ease. Unless you're again willing to sacrifice your clock you won't have enough discard to rely on.
In addition to StP white also gets what is IMO the best anti-combo card in the format - Orim's Chant.


My sideboard looks something like this:

4x Orim's Chant
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Meekstone
2x Abeyance
1x Swords to Plowshares (3 main)
2x Disenchant (2 main)/Echoing Calm/Serenity depending on the metagame.

In my opinion Meekstone is an absolute necessity, and not running it is strictly a mistake. It costs ONE mana and hoses all the creatures you're worried about but leaves your own untouched! The only downside I've seen is when it gets countered and makes Goyf bigger.

The 2 Abeyances were put in because when I was building my sideboard I ran out of cards to put in and commented "what I'd really like is 8 Chants." Well, Abeyance is the next best thing.

Tacosnape
08-22-2007, 03:33 PM
I definitely agree that Meekstone is underrated, but I think your metagame might make a pretty big difference on just how much of a mistake it would be not to run it. There's an incredible list of decks that aren't affected at all by it, including:

Goblins
Landstill
Cephalid Breakfast (Okay, so it stops their alternate kill of Tarmogoyf stompy.)
Ichorid
Any Storm Combo deck including Solidarity and Belcher
Fish, excluding possibly Jotun Grunt.
Certain Black aggro-control decks (The ones rife with Shade/Confidant but not Giant/Negator)

It's also only ehhish against Survival and Chalice Aggro, as Survival can remove it and CA can drop Chalices for 1.

This sort of makes Tarmogoyf aggro-control decks the only -incredible- use for the card.

zulander
08-22-2007, 03:38 PM
Play the green splash with tarmogoyf. If you're running 4 SGC and 4 TSH take out 2 of each.

Phya
08-22-2007, 03:38 PM
@ Tacosnape

Agreed. However Black or Blue based Tarmogoyf aggro-control makes up easily half the metagame where I'm from. As shown by the deck choices of the Ontario guys at Gencon. :tongue:

JimmyC27
08-22-2007, 08:20 PM
I still run white, and maintain it's the best splash for goblins.

The reasons:
StP is still the best spot removal in the format.
Green gives no tools against combo which is just inexcusable.
I've tried Blue and I just don't see it. It only slightly improves your combo match up while turning your clock and consistency to dog shit.
Black is firmly mediocre in my books. EP resistance is okay as is discard, but I've seen combo decks repeatedly go off through first turn Duress with ease. Unless you're again willing to sacrifice your clock you won't have enough discard to rely on.
In addition to StP white also gets what is IMO the best anti-combo card in the format - Orim's Chant.


My sideboard looks something like this:

4x Orim's Chant
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Meekstone
2x Abeyance
1x Swords to Plowshares (3 main)
2x Disenchant (2 main)/Echoing Calm/Serenity depending on the metagame.

In my opinion Meekstone is an absolute necessity, and not running it is strictly a mistake. It costs ONE mana and hoses all the creatures you're worried about but leaves your own untouched! The only downside I've seen is when it gets countered and makes Goyf bigger.

The 2 Abeyances were put in because when I was building my sideboard I ran out of cards to put in and commented "what I'd really like is 8 Chants." Well, Abeyance is the next best thing.

What did you take out to put 2 Disenchant in the MD?

Jak
08-23-2007, 03:59 AM
3c Goblin Fish

Lands-21
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain

Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze

Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 TSH
3 Goblin Warchief
2 SGC

SB
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Patron of the Akki
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip

I know Eldariel started a Goblin Fish thread, so I think it is a good idea to get it started again. The SB is a little different. With no removal MD, outside of Mogg, I felt the Gob MU would be bad. And it was, so with a big dude like Goyf in the board, why not run clasm to clear it for him. So then I added another big guy to try and help out. This is not tested, so no need to get all angry. I just thought the idea would be cool :smile: . I also tried to make it into a Thresh, but that wasn't that great. Any other ideas?

Phya
08-23-2007, 06:08 PM
What did you take out to put 2 Disenchant in the MD?

Well the short answer is nothing, actually when I first made the list it ran 3, but one got cut for Tinkerer.

With reference to the "typical" goblin list I suppose it would either have been SGC (I run 1) or Mogg Fanatic (I run 2).

Reagens
08-24-2007, 03:57 AM
Yesterday I tested the UGR ***** match-up and the Life from the loam match-up with the following list.

2 taiga
2 badlands
4 mountains
3 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

4 goblin lackey
3 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 tarmogoyf
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin incinerator
4 goblin ringleader
1 goblin king
2 siege-gang commander


4 aether vial

I must say it dramatically increases your match-up.
What I found out was that mid-game my goblins were either burned to a crisp or that I had to throw away gobs to protect me from opposing goyfs before I played the goyf myself. Now I can make midgame a stalemate and get to end-game where my card-advantage gobs do the work.
Altough I don't have to many illusions about the post board match-up (pyroclasm is massive card advantage for the ***** player) I do think it's a step in the right direction.
Post board I am thinking about several options.
Smother -> handels everything but mongoose
Dralnu's crusade -> effectively limits the power of burn. fire/ice wouldn't be card advantage any more and pyroclasm would only kill the little guys.
Advantage of the crusade is that there is fairly little enchantment hatred in our meta game and that most ***** player side out some counters post-board. The fact that it is rather slow does not really matter because you are aiming on the late game instead of just racing.

general note: I think it just shows how insanely powerful the goyf is.

slobad23
08-24-2007, 07:48 AM
Goyf this and goyf that... I'm sick to back teeth of eevrything just throwing him into a deck and assuming it makes it better (whether it does or not, just let me have my little moment of ranting peeps!)

I was saying to anusien the other day, i would rather be the guy beating up on all the goyf players than actually playing it. Now i have heard people claim that thresh is still a 50/50 match up for goblins... but goyf really does make it harder.

What i have found playing tog against thresh (especially the new UG incarnations) is that 2cc answers are not good - by this i am refering to counterspell and mana leak. my opponent looked like he was about to cry when i cast a circular logic and he thought his 2 snares would be good enough to protect the threat. They fall over to spellsnare and that's not what we want. Their opponent should be punishing them for playing narrow cards like snare - adding another 2cc creatures to the main (in addition to your piledrivers) just gives their snare more outs when it would otherwise be fairly piointless.

When i have played tog, what i really wanted was a 1cc answer to the threat once it had hit the table. reaching 3 mana to cast deed was all very well and good when that happened...

swords to plowshares would have made a difference in all games i have played so i think the white splash is still as good as it has always been.

it puts a tear in my eye when i see people mentioning "goblin fish"... i hope i am proved wrong and that it becomes a top tier deck (who am i kidding!)

pyrokinesis seems to be good in the main deck now (for those opting for mono red). it can put a dent into an early and greedy empty the warrens player and gives you a large amount of burn to point at opposing goyfs! One thing i found with incinerator was that it would go in the yard and pump the goyf and the burn would be less than required. Pyro'k actually removes the creature while dealing 4 to it. This is enought o kill an early goyf and start punching through damage, it won't fall over to snare and a daze can just be shrugged off. (i have been testing it with sucessful results anyway!)

or we could take the deck into an aggro/combo route. Though this might put a slight tilt on the game against threshold (i hear that deck likes to play against combo), it does give you some more outs against other combo. It also gives you 2 games plans against thresh. Variety is the spice of life!

When i talk about aggro/combo, i mean somethign like dirsty kitty from extended. Just to throw out come cards that could be included:

Rite of flame, Chrome mox, ?Land grant?, Ancient Tomb...

this gives yout he option of going beat down or combo. A problem with this i have found in the past (as i am sure many others have) is that you end up with a little bit of one and a little bit of the other (aggro and combo) and not enough elements on one on it's own to persue one route to victory. Only some testing will tell i guess - right now i jsut want to get some ideas out there.

I will certainly be testing the Dirty Kitty route and let you guys know how things go.

Any comments/criticisms/flames - feel free (try to keep the flames to pm's though peoples!)

Slobad23

slobad23
08-24-2007, 11:08 AM
And i was so happy with my long post - i thought that someone might come back with something constructive/informative and we could have a lengthy discussion with interesting points and perhaps some tea and crumpets...

but i threw it all down the toilet by talking to a known legacy player about legacy because i had some ideas about legacy... once more? yeah alright... legacy

Sorry Zulander - i'm just finishing up some work and am tired and, therefore, sarcastic!

Bovinious
08-24-2007, 11:32 AM
I'm also sick and tired of people adding Tarmogoyf to every deck and just assuming its better, I mean seriously, its a vanilla 4/5 or 5/6 dork than can be chumped to high Hell, removed by mass removal, and combo can just win right through the damn thing. Granted a lot of decks packing Tarmogoyf have counters etc (Breakfast, Thresh), but people adding Tarmogoyf to most other decks and justifying it by saying "its flipping Tarmogoyf!!!!1!1ONEONE!!!" just infuriates me. Yes, its the best vanilla beater ever printed, but its still just that, a vanilla beater. I can count the number of Legacy games I've lost to a lone Tarmogoyf on one hand, if a deck cant deal with a 2 CC vanilla beater, then something is wrong, heck, if your the kind of player who plays decks that cant handle it, you probably have your own Tarmogoyfs in your deck to stall the board, included just because "its flippin' Tarmogoyf!!!!!11!1!!ONE!!!!1!". Obviously the card is good, but COME ON people, Tarmogoyf in Goblins??? This whole Tarmogoyf obsession everyone has is really starting to get to me, as for me I'll just keep playing combo decks, ignore your vanilla dork (along with the rest of your board), and leave you wondering why Tarmogoyf, or as some people think it, "teh_moast_borken_cardd_evar!!11!!!11!", somehow let you down.

/rant

shteev
08-24-2007, 12:21 PM
my opponent looked like he was about to cry when i cast a circular logic and he thought his 2 snares would be good enough to protect the threat.


I had SOMETHING IN MY EYE!!!!!!

Bane of the Living
08-24-2007, 06:35 PM
Why run goyf in a deck that only plays creatures and lands?

Your just gonna sit and beg your opponent to make your 2/3 non gob better?

Granted he may be worth sbing against decks with Engineered Plague but hes just bad maindeck.

Sims
08-24-2007, 07:26 PM
Goyf is amazing.
Goyf in Goblins, not so amazing.
I really haven't touched Goblins in a long time as the deck has been frustrating me to hell and back and making me wish that it wasn't my pet deck for so damned long, so I have no other constructive criticism to offer.

Shteev,
Your signature is hilarious out of context. But once I clicked the link and figured out why the changes were being made, it lost all of it's hilarity and made much more sense. Take the link out and save the funny. Save the funny, save teh world.

Finn
08-25-2007, 08:42 AM
I thought Tarmogoyf was in the deck for protection against Tarmogoyf. I used to say that about Counterspells. We have come a long way with this one card.

Phya
08-25-2007, 08:53 AM
Why is there all this talk about protecting goblins from tarmogoyf.

You're playing Goblins, the quickest most explosive aggro deck in the format. Threshold should be shitting itself trying to contain you.

The most sure fire way to lose with Goblins is to play it defensively. Although StP and Incinerator can be helpful, the best answer to Goyf is laying down a dozen gobs and running right through it.

Finn
08-25-2007, 09:06 AM
hmm.
That sounds like a good idea. I think I am going to clean out my medicine closet as well since the best way to beat an illness is apparently to simply not get sick.

Phya
08-25-2007, 09:51 AM
hmm.
That sounds like a good idea. I think I am going to clean out my medicine closet as well since the best way to beat an illness is apparently to simply not get sick.

Well, you are correct that is the best way to beat an illness.

However, if that was intended as a shot at me (if not ignore this) then that analogy makes very little sense. Tarmogoyf isn't a rampaging disease that leaves Goblins bed-ridden. If anything Tarmogoyf is like a stuffy nose. In your medicine cabinet you already have Tylenol, but you decide to run out and grab antibiotics because you're scared to death. You get more sick trying to blow away your damn stuffy nose than if you just used the cold medicine you already have and then you're completely defenseless when Hepatitis comes in and you've been too busy freaking out about your nose to get your shots.

The point: Building Goblins to beat Tarmogoyf is a bad idea because Tarmogoyf is a very minor problem compared to what some other decks(combo) can do to Goblins.

Reagens
08-26-2007, 05:10 AM
How very dissapointing this discussion turns out to be.
Did any of you actually test the card?
Does any of you played 100+ games against red ***** since future sight became legal?
What are your ratios?
The match-up has clearly deteriorated with future sight. Before you were quite safe when resolving a first turn vial. Now that's the only thing that gives you a fighting chance.
If your only removal pre-board is incinerator I can assure you that you never can get enough goblins on the table to kill the goyf. I think that if you want to do good with gobs you need a solution.
One option would be to play 4 removal spells in the main (swords for example). I tested that and altough results were a little better, the same problem stayed. You don't get enough time to really get the card advantage of your gobs going. Mid-game is a disaster because you are always on the defensive.
I can understand the fact that running a non-goblin in goblins is strange, but I have no goblin that can take burn, block opposing 4/4's etc without dying. I need something like that to see me through to the late game were my gobs eventually do shine out because of the sheer card-advantage they can generate.
Either you come with a serious alternative or you just keep it to yourself. I was used to a lot more constructive feedback in the legacy metagame forum at the source than some of the posts here above. I am no saying I am right, but at least you can try to prove me wrong with your results and maybe an alternative decklist.

Zilla
08-26-2007, 07:36 AM
The match-up has clearly deteriorated with future sight.
This is true, at least in the case of red Thresh. I don't know about white Thresh. But in the case of red Thresh, they have 8 burn spells and 4 Pyroclasms postboard. This means Incinerator is essentially never going to be big enough to answer Tarmogoyf, and it just absolutely owns the ground against you when it's backed by Mongeese and spot removal. I feel confident saying that those who think Tarmogoyf hasn't turned red Thresh into a distinctly bad matchup for Goblins simply haven't tested the matchup enough. It's really not good. Your main paths to victory in this matchup are getting lucky with land disruption or resolving a first turn Chalice and racing.

It's important to recognize that Tarmogoyf is a very significant problem for you, but I'm not convinced that running Goyfs of your own is the correct plan.

Illissius
08-26-2007, 09:42 AM
Has anyone tested Goblin Goons maindeck?

Phya
08-26-2007, 10:12 AM
I can understand the fact that running a non-goblin in goblins is strange, but I have no goblin that can take burn, block opposing 4/4's etc without dying. I need something like that to see me through to the late game were my gobs eventually do shine out because of the sheer card-advantage they can generate.
Either you come with a serious alternative or you just keep it to yourself. I was used to a lot more constructive feedback in the legacy metagame forum at the source than some of the posts here above. I am no saying I am right, but at least you can try to prove me wrong with your results and maybe an alternative decklist.

Fine, I'll explain as best I can why I think Tarmogoyf is a bad card in Goblins. Based on your complaints about what Goblins can't do I'm guessing you mainly want him in for UGr Thresh. Putting aside the obvious downsides of running extra non-goblins, like that it makes half your deck weaker, how do you see it turning the match up favorable? If their Tarmogoyf ever gets into combat with yours all they have to do is use half a fire or a bolt to kill it. Even Pyroclasm + Bolt will kill it a lot of the time. Your counterparts to that (unless you're running Bolts) are Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator, both of which get stopped by Stifle. Ordinarily it might be beneficial that they're killing Tarmogoyf instead of other Goblins but you took those Goblins out of your deck for Tarmogoyf. For these reasons (and because I'd need to play green :cry:) I will not put Tarmogoyf in Goblins. If you decide I'm wrong, what you do in your list for your tournaments is your own business.

@ Godzilla

Of course the match up deteriorated with Future Sight. Threshold got the best green creature ever printed and Goblins got squat, but that doesn't mean that Goblins needs to be completely rethought. IMO a normal Rw list with one sideboard slot for Goyf should still be around 50/50 if you play your cards right and extend properly.

@ Illisus

Goblin Goon is cool but it's inherently a win-more card. Red threshold (which seems to be what everyone's worried about) will just drop creatures you cant kill and then snipe off yours.


I guess I might as well post my list since that will likely answer a lot of questions.

4x Plateau
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothils
7x Mountain
4x Wasteland
1x Dust Bowl

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Mogg Fanatic
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

4x Aether Vial
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Disenchant

SB:

4x Orim's Chant
3x Pyrokinesis
1x Swords to Plowshares
3x Meekstone
2x Abeyance
2x Pithing Needle/Disenchant

I could easily see removing the Disenchants main for a 4th sword and 3rd Fanatic if thats what you metagame calls for. While I don't always beat threshold the matches are always close in both directions.

Reagens
08-26-2007, 11:49 AM
Putting aside the obvious downsides of running extra non-goblins, like that it makes half your deck weaker, how do you see it turning the match up favorable? If their Tarmogoyf ever gets into combat with yours all they have to do is use half a fire or a bolt to kill it. Even Pyroclasm + Bolt will kill it a lot of the time. Your counterparts to that (unless you're running Bolts) are Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator, both of which get stopped by Stifle.

Thanks for your answer, now we can get somewhere.
Just to make things clear. Have you counted the number of gobs in my list? And then count the gobs in your list. Notice anything strange? I still play more goblins than you do... So making my deck weaker? Not weaker then yours I suppose...
I see you explain why tarmogoyf dies easily. I'm not saying it's invincible or something but the mere fact that they have to block it and then spend burn is infinitely better then taking 4 or more damage to the chin or losing a goblin.
Another nice thing is that it makes fanatic and incinerator more dangerous. Because they can lose their goyf when blocked by your goyf. Stifle is rarely an issue, because they will rather stifle a mother or a ringleader.


This is true, at least in the case of red Thresh. I don't know about white Thresh. But in the case of red Thresh, they have 8 burn spells and 4 Pyroclasms postboard. This means Incinerator is essentially never going to be big enough to answer Tarmogoyf, and it just absolutely owns the ground against you when it's backed by Mongeese and spot removal. I feel confident saying that those who think Tarmogoyf hasn't turned red Thresh into a distinctly bad matchup for Goblins simply haven't tested the matchup enough. It's really not good. Your main paths to victory in this matchup are getting lucky with land disruption or resolving a first turn Chalice and racing.

It's important to recognize that Tarmogoyf is a very significant problem for you, but I'm not convinced that running Goyfs of your own is the correct plan.

Versions in Belgium play 10 burn spells main board (4 bolt, 3 magma jet, 3 fire/ice). Post board they can add pyoclasm and ancient grudge (which makes artifact answers rather unreliable). Ancient grudge is their to slow you down (i.e. no free goblins with vial). Making the match-up nigh unwinnable.
I would have never tested 'goyf in the deck because I agreed with you guys (it's not a goblin, etc etc) but I got tired of testing my other decks and figured why the hell not.
Seriously, test it out. Give me some feedback afterwards. Despite the obvious lack of synergie with most of the rest of the deck it is up until now the most satisfying solution.

slobad23
08-26-2007, 01:47 PM
How very dissapointing this discussion turns out to be.
Did any of you actually test the card?
Does any of you played 100+ games against red ***** since future sight became legal?
What are your ratios?

...prove me wrong with your results and maybe an alternative decklist


What are your ratios? you're the one offering something new - you should provide the statistics for the rest of us.

it's like me saying "you should all play rift bolt in goblins", someone responds witth "i don't think that is a good idea and offers other alternatives only for you to fire back "riftbolt is good and you prove me wrong otherwise what i say is true"

No one else is offering such a drastic change (other than goblin fish). Im not trying to be shi**y with you, but with such a dramatic developmet to teh deck, you should be the one offering stats to show everyone else why what y ou're saying isnt just a random idea of yours that you're assuming will pan out.

Slobad23

Eldariel
08-26-2007, 02:26 PM
Something that might warrant reconsideration is Stingscourger. Initially dismissed for the lack of relevant targets to hit, here it takes that Tarmogoyf out of equation for a turn for the measly cost of 2 mana and provides a body while at it. Also handles other creatures and bla bla bla, but the main benefit of running it in some quantity would be slowing Threshold down so you can reach the lategame state you so want. It's basically a sorcery Snapback that happens to leave a 2/2 blocker behind.

I think it might at least warrant testing.

Phya
08-26-2007, 02:36 PM
Just to make things clear. Have you counted the number of gobs in my list? And then count the gobs in your list. Notice anything strange? I still play more goblins than you do... So making my deck weaker? Not weaker then yours I suppose...

I knew this would be an issue. The main difference is that Tarmogoyf is just another creature, he could just as easily have been a Goblin. Swords offers something that only Gempalm Incinerator can compete with, and in the case of Tarmogoyf even Incinerator doesn't come close.

So, what is the better answer to Tarmogoyf, the spell that can be countered, Spell Snared, and burned away... or the spell that has to be Forced or (shame on you if you let this happen) Dazed.

@ Eldariel

He's cool. I'm fairly skeptical of whether the one turn without a Goyf will make a difference as when I lose to threshold they usually have 3-4 creatures in play. I think mono-red builds (god knows why you'd do that to yourself) could definitely find some use out of him. He might even become a staple in the sideboard, who knows? It's a good answer with Vial at 2 to Cephalid Breakfast's combo, if your metagame calls for that sort of thing.

diffy
08-26-2007, 03:00 PM
Stingscourger


If you run the Black Splash for Mainboard Therapies, he's some actual hard removal with Peek effect and gives an additional flashback outlet for the Therapy which can create some obscene amounts of Card Advantage.
For testing purposes I might suggest to cut one Mountain going down to 22 lands (I have always been mana flooded in testing and tournaments) and cut a Ringleader (he is more like 2/2 Haste with 'draw a Goblin' nowadays if you run 8 nongoblins spells and take a lot of Goblins out for sideboard hate - he's also sided out frequently) for 2 Stingscourers.

For reference, this is how a testing list might look like:

// Lands (22)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

// Creatures (30)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells (8)
4 AEther Vial
4 Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 3 Open Slots

Bovinious
08-26-2007, 06:08 PM
How very dissapointing this discussion turns out to be.
Did any of you actually test the card?


We dont need to test the card to know it is subpar in goblins, have you tested Orcish Artillery and Caribou Range to find out how subpar they are? Of course not, some things are just obviously good and obviously bad, one of the bad being Tarmogoyf in goblins, as thought by me and pretty much everyone else who knows vial goblins well.

dlevsApiJ
08-26-2007, 06:39 PM
Something that might warrant reconsideration is Stingscourger. Initially dismissed for the lack of relevant targets to hit, here it takes that Tarmogoyf out of equation for a turn for the measly cost of 2 mana and provides a body while at it. Also handles other creatures and bla bla bla, but the main benefit of running it in some quantity would be slowing Threshold down so you can reach the lategame state you so want. It's basically a sorcery Snapback that happens to leave a 2/2 blocker behind.

I think it might at least warrant testing.

I test him at the moment, and he is very good, Vial makes him even better. And decks like Cephalid Breakfast decks arent happy to see it when their Sutured Ghoul is on the table. He is good against much decks.

My list at the moment:

Creatures (34)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

Other spells (4
4 Aether Vial

Land (22
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
4 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Meekstone
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tranquil Domain

Tips?

Mvg

Tacosnape
08-26-2007, 11:57 PM
I have to say I like Stingscourger. A lot of decks will stall you off with just that single Goyf for a few turns, and the scourger can buy you a near-lethal swing.

amok
08-27-2007, 07:50 AM
Splashing white instead of green gives this deck more chances against Thresh decks, thanks to StP. Although it is a big threat, the most problematic thing the deck (Vial Goblins with white splash) faces against Thresh decks isn't Tarmogoyf, nor is it Werebear, Meddling Mage, Mystic Enforcer, Quirion Dryad or any other targetable vanilla :smile: creature. Despite being untargetable, the mongoose is also not a problem due to its low P/T. The "real threat" comes up especially if they are running red (sideboarding pyroclasm) or board controllers/sweepers. Pyroclasm and its variants (Engineered Plague, WoG, Flamebreak, Jitte, etc.) are imho this decks worst nightmares.

3-4 STPs and 3-4 Incinerators, together with a lonely Barbarian Ring and/or a Stingscourger would be enough to deal with their creatures, their Goyfs to be specific.

Here's a list that should be considered :smile:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring


4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin King
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Shapshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer / Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker / Siege-Gang Commander / Mogg Fanatic

4 Aether Vial

3 Swords to Plowshares

SB
3 Disenchant
2 Armageddon
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
3 Meekstone
3 Chalice of the Void / Pithing Needle / Tormod's Crypt

I should probably test it alot though...

dlevsApiJ
08-27-2007, 09:39 AM
I think Green is better, Krosan Grip is much better than Disenchant, and 2 Tranquil Domain is also very nice against Engineered Plague.
STP can be cutted, play 4 Mogg's, 4 Gempalms, a 2nd SGC and then whatever you need in your meta (i play a 2nd anti artifact gobbo, Tinkeren and Hooligan).

With the SB Meekstone and CotV (on 1 and later on 2) your matchup against ***** isnt so bad...

Mvg

FredMaster
08-27-2007, 10:15 AM
I don't know why none of you guys thinks of a G and W Splash...
Atm i am running the following version and i have to say: I can't imagine any better Gobbels.

//Lands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
1 Taiga
5 Mountain

//Goblins
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Incinerator
4 Fanatics
4 Ringleader
2 Gangbang Commander
1 Pyromancer
1 Goblin King
1 Kiki-Jiki

//Rest
4 Vial
3 StoP

//Sideboard
3 Armageddon -> Hi Controlplayer! :smile:
4 Krosan Grip -> Hi Plague, Hi Deed, Hi Jitte!
4 Pyrokinesis -> Mirror/EtW-Tokens ? :)
4 Meekstone -> Just powerful...

Btw: The Hooligan sux. You can't use him with Vial nor with Warchief. Just not very smart to play him.

NANTUKO_SHADY
08-27-2007, 10:56 AM
I don't know why none of you guys thinks of a G and W Splash...
Atm i am running the following version and i have to say: I can't imagine any better Gobbels.

//Lands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
1 Taiga
5 Mountain

//Goblins
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Incinerator
4 Fanatics
4 Ringleader
2 Gangbang Commander
1 Pyromancer
1 Goblin King
1 Kiki-Jiki

//Rest
4 Vial
3 StoP

//Sideboard
3 Armageddon -> Hi Controlplayer! :smile:
4 Krosan Grip -> Hi Plague, Hi Deed, Hi Jitte!
4 Pyrokinesis -> Mirror/EtW-Tokens ? :)
4 Meekstone -> Just powerful...

Btw: The Hooligan sux. You can't use him with Vial nor with Warchief. Just not very smart to play him.

Well... the reason people sway away from 3c Gobbos is probably just the matter of annoyance to reach all three colors when you need them, and the annoyance of Wasteland and opposing Ports etc. I'm not saying 3c is a bad idea, I'm just pointing out why many people would not want to include the white splash.

Another suggestion, I would cut the Kikki for a MD Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter is SOOOO powerful with Belcher and other fast storm decks that abuse ETW. Also, I would switch the Meekstones for CoTv. WIth your current list, you have almost NO game against fast storm combo and Belcher. MD Sharpshooter and Chalice will help you alot in that area. Other than that, interesting list.


EDIT: Hooligan does not suck. You can play him for 2 mana. You don't even need to use Warchief's ability to make casting him faster. Chances are if you want to take out an opposing vial or something like that, you will be casting him before Goblin Warchief. I just like him because he nukes said artifact for two. The Vial drawback is annoying, but I'd still run him.

dlevsApiJ
08-27-2007, 10:57 AM
I played 3 colors, and it is to much, you dont get all the mana you need and 2 colors is enough...

Mvg

Phya
08-27-2007, 11:58 AM
I don't know why none of you guys thinks of a G and W Splash...
Atm i am running the following version and i have to say: I can't imagine any better Gobbels.

*snip*


I don't see it. You're adding green only for Krosan Grip when white gives you tons of artifact/enchantment removal. I'm not saying Grip is bad but it sure as hell isn't worth splashing a color to sideboard it. Also as a general statement I'd just like to say that Goblin King is bad. There are enough great silver bullet Goblins to not play this fat slow hunk of crap.

@ Freund

That is unfair and dirty and cheap and right up my alley. You can be sure that come Lorwyn my team will be seriously testing RB Gobs.

FredMaster
08-27-2007, 12:48 PM
Another suggestion, I would cut the Kikki for a MD Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter is SOOOO powerful with Belcher and other fast storm decks that abuse ETW. Also, I would switch the Meekstones for CoTv. WIth your current list, you have almost NO game against fast storm combo and Belcher. MD Sharpshooter and Chalice will help you alot in that area.

I never even saw a combodeck in my meta yet oO
Pretty amazing because according to some more experienced players, my meta is full with Combo -.-
wtf?
Only sometimes there is a Life-Player but that is not the conventional combo, or at least not the one we are talking about.
But if there were, i'd definitely change Kiki with Sharpshooter :wink:


EDIT: Hooligan does not suck. You can play him for 2 mana. You don't even need to use Warchief's ability to make casting him faster. Chances are if you want to take out an opposing vial or something like that, you will be casting him before Goblin Warchief.
The problem is that you don't wanna hold back a Warchief - except against combo - just to be able to use that lil man's ability.
In fact you want to get a warchief online as fast as you can.
And in lategame, with maybe even 2 warchiefs on the board, the hooligan is just a pretty useless 2/1 Goblin to be thrown into a SGC or a Goyf-blocker.

@ Phya - Grip:
Mainboard, you don't have to fetch for a taiga, you can just rely on your
strategy. If, and only if, you decide to board the Grip, that's where your Green mana source comes into play.
Matter of Fact you just changed a maindeck Mountain with a Taiga. So I can't see any probs at casting the grip. The point is:
Krosan grip has split second and things like disenchant don't.
Krosan Grip beats Counterbalance and things like disenchant don't (at least it is not so easy to be countered - being cc3).
And that is prolly the important point. You can defuse Jitte with it, and i mean totally defuse it and don't just remove it from the board and give the opponent 2-4 life, which you as a Goblinplayer just not want to be happening.

@ Phya - King:
This guy just wins games dewd. It's just a better lategame Matrontarget, then then your 4th Warchief oO
Against any opponents who play red, it's just an alphastrike.
But you maybe right somehow. At least this man could be better supported, by for example, Blood Moon in Sideboard.

Eldariel
08-27-2007, 02:46 PM
Eh, Tin Street works just fine. Basically all offending artifacts either come in before you wanna play Warchief (Vial) or kill Warchief on first opportunity (Jitte, Cursed Scroll, SoFI, etc.). Tin Street kills them dead. With Warchief, it's still a 2-power creature you can play, but the sitiuation where you need to get rid of artifacts is one where Warchief isn't available 90% of the time. 10% isn't enough to make Tinkerer a superior alternative as it dies to Jitte with two counters or such, making it positively impossible to kill a Jitte with it, for example.

Tin Street is the best MD anti-artifact creature you can play, and that's the main reason to go green in the first place. Grip and Tranquil Domain are just huge bonuses. Swords to Plowshares isn't a Goblin, so while it can be a metagame call, it isn't absolutely incredible MD. It's still a good card though, but weakens your main engines.

Phya
08-27-2007, 04:23 PM
@ FredMaster

I didn't notice that you only run one Taiga, if that hasn't caused you problems with resolving Grip I'm seriously interested in your metagame. I wasn't so much advocating cutting green although I think you need to find another reason to run it. Also I've found the best way to deal with Jitte is to kill its creature.

I can't really see wanting to wish for King more often than Sharpshooter. In fact the only time when I might want a King is if I get into a stand-off against UGr Thresh, and even then I can see myself commiting to it and then watching it get bolted. I hate King because it's a weak card that looks much better than it is and then makes its way into far too many Goblin decks.

diffy
08-27-2007, 04:32 PM
I hate King because it's a weak card that looks much better than it is and then makes its way into far too many Goblin decks.


Just think of it as a Naturalize/Disenchant that can be countered but goes to your hand when revealed with Ringleader and can be tutored for with Goblin Matron... I think it really is worth it's one off status in the sideboard as replacement for the fourth Krosan Grip because it's broadly usable (landwalk ability) and helps to speed up your clock in the control Matchup.

Phya
08-27-2007, 04:53 PM
Okay, I can see it being a one-of in the sideboard... I used to have Ib there (back when Legacy didn't have 5+ toughness creatures), however I think that viewing him as a Disenchant is very dangerous.

Let's see what one Engineered Plague keeps you off of, Lackey, Fanatic, Siege-Gang Tokens, Matron's 1/1 body. Roughly as annoying as Chalice for 1. Now let's compare that to what two Plagues stops... your entire deck, including King. One Engineered Plague barely even slows Goblins down, when you wish for King unless you're in some crazy situation (like EP, Warchief on the board, double Lackey, Siege-Gang, Kiki in hand) it's actually worse because you chose to not grab a relevant threat. The other thing that really hurts Goblins is EP + Darkblast, in which case they're just going to kill off the King anyway.

In short, Goblins does not have to answer one Engineered Plague and Goblin King is completely useless against two. I admit that King has uses (too narrow to warrant inclusion IMO) but thinking about him as a EP answer is like thinking of Dark Confidant as a blocker.

diffy
08-27-2007, 05:21 PM
In short, Goblins does not have to answer one Engineered Plague and Goblin King is completely useless against two.


Neutering one Plague while still having a (Goblin)Body is something very relevant in my opinioin because even one plague can take the wind out of Goblin's sails/stop the initial assault... Buying those additional turns in which you can swing unhindered until your opponent finally hits his second Plague (till when you probably should have drawn one of your 3 Krosan Grips) can be game winning against control. Also, I'd much rather have a body that can swing/pump Piledriver than 4 fourth redundant Krosan Grip... after all this deck is still Aggro (even if it's leaning towards the Combo/Control end of the spectrum a lot more recently as I percieve it)

For refference, this is the Sideboard I'm using right now in my Rgb version:

3 Krosan Grip
1 Goblin King
4 Duress
4 Pyrokinesis/Snuff Out (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/162.html) (Still testing... Snuff Out is some good against Tarmogoyf but Pyrokinesis is better in the mirror)
3 Open Slots/Random Tech

Eldariel
08-27-2007, 06:22 PM
At that, I'd rather just have Pyromancer to win the game. I'd also rather have Patron of the Akki to win the game. King is weaker than alternatives, while one mana cheaper, if you've got any chance you have to have enough mana to do something.

thefreakaccident
08-28-2007, 08:04 PM
plague and pyroclasm are the only real sideboard threats to goblins... clasm only makes a difference in decks like thresh... plague can be used in anything carrying a black producing land... goblins has sideboard cards for plague, so why are you guys talking about king... use 1 of 2 things, grip or disenchant.... sometimes you can use a tranqility affect if you feel like it.

what is the thresh MU nowadays, I seem to be winning with thresh against gobs more than usual... then again I play the UGWB varient with plagues to bring in.

I don't understand why I don't get my ass handed to me with such an attrocious manabase. I usually see like 3 ports and 3 wastes in a game too.

Tacosnape
08-28-2007, 08:19 PM
I would say UGW Threshold went from pretty favorable to slightly favorable or even, and I'd say UGR went from slightly favorable to even or slightly unfavorable depending on the build.

On the bright side, that UG Threshold that wrecks face in the mirror is still pretty favorable.

thefreakaccident
08-28-2007, 11:28 PM
I would say UGW Threshold went from pretty favorable to slightly favorable or even, and I'd say UGR went from slightly favorable to even or slightly unfavorable depending on the build.

On the bright side, that UG Threshold that wrecks face in the mirror is still pretty favorable.

You know, I think it is funny... if you go between threads..

If you go in between people here on the forums, they will both say they have tested a MU extensively... but on both sides they will say they have a positive MU. Like you may say that you have a positive UGR thresh MU, but I could go and ask someone who plays UGR threshold a lot and say the MU is favorable but in thresh's favor.

I know that I should simply test the MU for myself and draw my own conclusions, but I don't play either deck regularly (in fact I have only played goblins 2 times in tournaments and have it completely built almost entirely for testing purposes).

I am a thresh fan, so I guess that is what sparked the question... see personally with my 4c varient, I have been having pretty good success against the RG varient of goblins... overall going about 50/50 (out of a lot of matches pre and post board)... I just wanted to see your guys' responses to the question.

Jaynel
09-01-2007, 06:55 PM
Krark-Clan Shaman has been run in Vintage Goblin decks (Vial and non Vial) with a manabase slightly modified to include 4 Great Furnaces. I understand that Vintage Goblin decks run artifact mana, which helps support Krark-Clan Shaman, that can't be used in Legacy. Decklists can be found in this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14538.html) article.

However, is it worth considering in any meta? In a heavy combo meta?

Is Krark-Clan Shaman a viable and/or needed maindeck solution to Empty the Warrens? Zombie tokens? Nimble Mongeese? Cephalid Illusionists?


On another note, is Goblin Goon a reasonable answer to Tarmogoyf? What about Mogg Flunkies?

squ34k
09-03-2007, 02:32 AM
I test him at the moment, and he is very good, Vial makes him even better. And decks like Cephalid Breakfast decks arent happy to see it when their Sutured Ghoul is on the table. He is good against much decks.

My list at the moment:

Creatures (34)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

Other spells (4
4 Aether Vial

Land (22
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
4 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Meekstone
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tranquil Domain

Tips?

Mvg

I really like the RG setup and I'm liking the SB but how do you handle GY threats? Ichorid and such?

Eldariel
09-03-2007, 08:12 AM
Basically, Mogg Fanatic. And your other removal against Cephalid Breakfast. But against Friggorid, you plan on removing their Bridges.

Drossie
09-03-2007, 09:13 AM
People who play the green splash: don't you need the STP? I play the white splash and I really love my STP!

dlevsApiJ
09-03-2007, 10:33 AM
They are good, but the green splash also gives you good things... If you dont play STP, you can play more goblin-removal mainboard (like 4Fanatic, 4Gempalm, Shooter, Stingscourger..) they are Much better with your Ringleader...

Mvg

Drossie
09-03-2007, 01:13 PM
Can someone give me the pro's and con's of playing the green splash instead of the white one?
I'm playing the white one, but it seems the green is played more at this moment...

Illissius
09-03-2007, 01:47 PM
Green splash:
T.S. Hooligan
Krosan Grip
Naturalize
Tranquil Domain
Ancient Grudge
Tarmogoyf

White splash:
Swords to Plowshares
Orim's Chant
Jotun Grunt
Armageddon
Disenchant
Orim's Thunder
Serenity
Shared Triumph

Black splash:
Snuff Out
Duress
Cabal Therapy
Planar Void
Leyline of the Void
Perish
Dystopia
Living Death
Patriarch's Bidding
Dralnu's Crusade

Multi splash:
Engineered Explosives
Vindicate
Ray of Revelation

The biggest advantage of the green splash is maindeck T.S. Hooligan, the only actual Goblin in this entire list. Krosan Grip might also be the second best anti-Plague card after Ray of Revelation. Black and white both give you better weapons against combo and Tarmogoyf.

edit -- actually, white does have Goblin Legionnaire, also a respectable Goblin, but he's rarely used.

Jak
09-03-2007, 11:59 PM
I also have found that Extirpate to be a worthwhile card in the black splash. That with cabal therapy gives some good combo hate.

Tacosnape
09-04-2007, 12:04 AM
I think that if I were going to splash Black I'd pick Planar Void over Extirpate here. Void is incredibly strong in the modern metagame, easy to cast, helps against those pesky Tarmogoyfs, and hurts Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, and Threshold.

Drossie
09-05-2007, 10:31 AM
What's in the current meta the best color to splash? White or green?

APriestOfGix
09-05-2007, 10:54 AM
This has stopped putting up results might it no longer be a DTB!?

cheddercaveman
09-05-2007, 11:48 AM
This has stopped putting up results might it no longer be a DTB!?

I think this will almost always be a deck to beat. Right now you've got a situation where people think the deck is "dead" because it didnt place at GenCon so people are playing it less because of that. Also, there is still the usual goblins hate all over the place, another bad thing for the deck. And finally the fact that the splash color probably needs to change. Pyrokinesis and Gempalm have trouble dealing with 'goyf. Seems like its time for a black splash. Terror, Duress, Planar Void all seem to solve the current problems the deck has fairly well.

Additionally, sounds like black is going to be the other goblin color in Lorwyn, so might be additional good stuff there too.

DragoFireheart
09-05-2007, 12:22 PM
I think this will almost always be a deck to beat. Right now you've got a situation where people think the deck is "dead" because it didnt place at GenCon so people are playing it less because of that. Also, there is still the usual goblins hate all over the place, another bad thing for the deck. And finally the fact that the splash color probably needs to change. Pyrokinesis and Gempalm have trouble dealing with 'goyf. Seems like its time for a black splash. Terror, Duress, Planar Void all seem to solve the current problems the deck has fairly well.

Additionally, sounds like black is going to be the other goblin color in Lorwyn, so might be additional good stuff there too.

It seems black is the color for goblins, but I would argue using Terror. Smother is a better choice as it lets you [on the off chance] kill a black or artifact creature.

Happy Gilmore
09-05-2007, 12:51 PM
Don't quote me but I think with Goblins being a major tribe in Lorwyn, things are going to happen.

Lemuria
09-05-2007, 01:14 PM
Black doesen't get rid off Plague.

GreenOne
09-05-2007, 01:48 PM
Black doesen't get rid off Plague.

You can play Dralnu's Crusade. Sure, plague is still in play, but you can get rid of the effect. It's also far from dead if the opponent doesn't draw the plague, and is good vs Hydroblast and protection from red.


It seems black is the color for goblins, but I would argue using Terror. Smother is a better choice as it lets you [on the off chance] kill a black or artifact creature.

Snuff Out is probalby better then both. Works well around Daze, Counterbalance and Spell Snare, doesn't slow your clock down, and you're often the aggressive deck, so you care less of your life total.

Nihil Credo
09-05-2007, 02:04 PM
Playing Snuff Out in a Goblins deck would be pretty damn funny, if you look at its art and flavour text.

Volt
09-05-2007, 02:43 PM
Playing Snuff Out in a Goblins deck would be pretty damn funny, if you look at its art and flavour text.

Snuff Out is a terrific card that doesn't seen enough play.

And, yeah, I think Gobbo is going to make a comeback.

technogeek5000
09-05-2007, 05:50 PM
Snuff out sees play in sui decks which are on the rise and its being put into more and more decks. Snuff out seems broken in this deck because you can play lackey and clear a path for it at the same time.

Lorwyn looks promising for gobbos as gobs are the red tribe and I believe I saw a good black lackey target but i cant seem to remember what it was called. Anyone?

Drossie
09-05-2007, 06:16 PM
Snuff out sees play in sui decks which are on the rise and its being put into more and more decks. Snuff out seems broken in this deck because you can play lackey and clear a path for it at the same time.

Lorwyn looks promising for gobbos as gobs are the red tribe and I believe I saw a good black lackey target but i cant seem to remember what it was called. Anyone?

this?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55595&d=1187737722

GreenOne
09-05-2007, 06:25 PM
Snuff out sees play in sui decks which are on the rise and its being put into more and more decks. Snuff out seems broken in this deck because you can play lackey and clear a path for it at the same time.


Sui decks on the rise?? Are you serious? I can't see suicide doing well after the HulkFlash meta.

However, Snuff Out fits the "cheat on mana" flavour of goblins too :smile:

technogeek5000
09-05-2007, 06:41 PM
Umm yah im dead serious. The sui deck i play has great aggro and combo matchups (i splash white for grunt and stp) and 50/50 control. The creatures are big and effective (negator (and for me grunt) for muscle, confidant and hippie to gain card advantage over the opponent, plus the 8 2/2 zombies are pretty nasty when you get 2 or three of them out a game). Hymn to tourach and waste/sink are great disruption pieces plus duress is good against lots of decks. The removal isnt as bad as most would think... smother is great nowadays, snuff out is extremly broken, and now most lists run jittes. Also the deck runs dark ritual to make everything come out faster. The deck is relatively cheap to build and all the time new people come to the thread saying tthat they will be playing the deck.

dlevsApiJ
09-08-2007, 03:33 PM
Someone with a good build with the black splash?
Good black card: Duress/Cabal Therapy/Planar Void/Dralnu's Crusade (anti Plague)/Snuff Out/maybe Extirpate?

Mvg

Jak
09-08-2007, 04:52 PM
I think minus 3 Tins, +3 Cabal Therapy main. SB would probably something good like this.

1 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Snuff Out (might be mainable)
4 Planar Void
2 Dralnu's Crusade (may need more, but whatever)

Illissius
09-08-2007, 06:02 PM
I think I'd go with:

MD: 4 Snuff Out (removing the same things you'd remove for StP in white)
SB: 4 Planar Void
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 ? (Perish, Dystopia, Crusade, Goon, Tinkerer, Jitte, Pyro, Chalice, Price, Needle, Brightstone, ...)

dlevsApiJ
09-08-2007, 06:40 PM
I think i gonna play this:

3 Snuff Out main

Side:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Therapy/Duress
3 Planar Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Meekstone

Something like this.. (in a meta with not so many Plagues)

Mvg

Jak
09-08-2007, 09:10 PM
Why do you want chalice. It is a great card, but when a lot of your hate costs 1, I don't like it. You have enough discard anyways.

kabal
09-08-2007, 09:17 PM
Why do you want chalice. It is a great card, but when a lot of your hate costs 1, I don't like it. You have enough discard anyways.

CoV for zero hits Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox

Jak
09-08-2007, 11:13 PM
Wow. I am close minded. Yeah, I wasn't thinking about that. And also, I still think EE or Brightstone Ritual should be SB. I forgot about them in the board I through together. Maybe something like this with 4 main Therapies.

4 Planar Void
2-4 Duress
4 Snuff Out
2 Dralnu's Crusade
2-4 Brightstone Ritual

dlevsApiJ
09-08-2007, 11:17 PM
Brightstone Ritual?? When do you board him in?? Don't play him, you dont need him, play CotV/EE (1 of the 2, which is the best in your meta) their Very good.

Jak
09-08-2007, 11:28 PM
It is actually for EtW. After they EtW for 10, play it. Fun stuff ensues.

calosso
09-08-2007, 11:51 PM
Brightstone Ritual?? When do you board him in?? Don't play him, you dont need him, play CotV/EE (1 of the 2, which is the best in your meta) their Very good.

People bring in ritual against combo decks w/ empty the warrens, so they can proceed to play every goblins in your hand. Also in the black splash sideboard there is an extreme lack of parish in the sideboard, it is very strong against gro, and TARMOGOYF.

Tacosnape
09-09-2007, 03:25 AM
Perish is weak.

My current black list looks like this:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Planar Void
4 Snuff Out
3 Pithing Needle

For what it's worth, after a lot of testing, I don't like Duress in Goblins, black or not. It just never feels worth the slot. Therapy, Void, and Needle all pack much more punch for the mana in the correct situations.

dlevsApiJ
09-09-2007, 04:39 PM
Thats a very nice play against EtW, the Brightstone Ritual, also in the mirror :). Is it really good enough to play? (i also will test it)

Mvg

technogeek5000
09-11-2007, 06:47 PM
I tested brightstone ritual maindeck in a goblins list and it worked pretty well. Occasionally it would be dead with hands without one drops but normally it would cast all the relevant goblins in my hand and turn the tide of any opposing aggro matchup instantaniously (God i suck at spelling, did i get that right). My list runs the black splash which seems like the best option with the arrival of tarmogoyf.. The only problem i have with it is the lack of answers to Plauge. Maybe we should splash 2 colors so we can have some good enchantment hate.

GreenOne
09-12-2007, 02:03 PM
Did anyone think about Goblin Grenade as Goyf solution in MonoR or RG Gobbos? It fits well the aggro part, taking care of big dudes and helping kill the opponent. It also have a nice sinergy with Caller of the Claw, if you play it.

I'm not sure about that, but I'll test it. Did anyone already test that?

Tacosnape
09-12-2007, 02:22 PM
Grenade actually isn't all that bad of an idea. The biggest problem it's going to run into, however, is being countered.

With that said though, most of Threshold's countermagic interestingly doesn't stop Grenade. Stifle doesn't, Snare doesn't, and Daze doesn't. Force of Will does, as does Counterspell for the few who still run it. Counterbalance obviously is a pretty strong problem for it to deal with, but I'm not aware of Threshold decks making a habit of boarding in Counterbalance against Goblins.

There's also the Door in Lorwyn that would just allow Goblins to swing straight into a Tarmogoyf with no fear, but the Door is more susceptible to Snare.

Eldariel
09-12-2007, 03:20 PM
Right, here's a 'Big Goblins'-build I was fooling around with.

Main
12 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland

4 AEther Vial

2 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Goon
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard
SB: 2 Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 Goblin Assassin
SB: 3 Anarchy
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Brightstone Ritual
SB: 2 Patron of the Akki


I was also considering some Great Furnaces and a singleton Krark-Clan Shaman as an affordable answer to Warrens and a trick in the mirror, as well as unthreshed mongoose-killer, but meh. Note, I went mono-red because I felt like trying to build mono-red for a change. It did great against UGr Threshold. Goblin Goon is seriously huge and Stingscourger has its uses too. Mirror is naturally dicey, but I split about even there. I was thinking a Sharpshooter over a Fanatic, but Fanatic is so sweet against Cephfast... The lower number of Gempalms is just natural since in this meta, you want them midgame, not early on. 22 lands is too few (surprise, surprise), but I couldn't really fit any more. So yea, some kind of Gooned build. They definitely help a lot. Now just to fit them in without raping the rest of the deck. Oh, and I'm pretty happy with Stingscourgers.

calosso
09-12-2007, 03:49 PM
Right, here's a 'Big Goblins'-build I was fooling around with.

Main
12 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland

4 AEther Vial

2 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Goon
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard
SB: 2 Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 Goblin Assassin
SB: 3 Anarchy
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Brightstone Ritual
SB: 2 Patron of the Akki


I was also considering some Great Furnaces and a singleton Krark-Clan Shaman as an affordable answer to Warrens and a trick in the mirror, as well as unthreshed mongoose-killer, but meh. Note, I went mono-red because I felt like trying to build mono-red for a change. It did great against UGr Threshold. Goblin Goon is seriously huge and Stingscourger has its uses too. Mirror is naturally dicey, but I split about even there. I was thinking a Sharpshooter over a Fanatic, but Fanatic is so sweet against Cephfast... The lower number of Gempalms is just natural since in this meta, you want them midgame, not early on. 22 lands is too few (surprise, surprise), but I couldn't really fit any more. So yea, some kind of Gooned build. They definitely help a lot. Now just to fit them in without raping the rest of the deck. Oh, and I'm pretty happy with Stingscourgers.

I completely disagree with stingscourger over gempalm. The fact that there is an echo on stingscourger just makes him so bad. Sure you can bounce goyf ,but gempalm can kill goyf. Stingscouger does not improve any match-ups that gempalm wouldn't.

Nihil Credo
09-12-2007, 03:51 PM
While searching for an anti-Tarmogoyf trick, has anyone tried Frenzied Goblin?

zulander
09-12-2007, 03:56 PM
Why not play goblin war strike instead? You could just not care about goyfs and it'll win you some games that you shouldn't.

Eldariel
09-12-2007, 07:09 PM
I completely disagree with stingscourger over gempalm. The fact that there is an echo on stingscourger just makes him so bad. Sure you can bounce goyf ,but gempalm can kill goyf. Stingscouger does not improve any match-ups that gempalm wouldn't.

However, Stingscourger can be used in the early game where Gempalm is useless. You'll be hardpressed to get enough Goblins in play to kill Goyf in the face of Pyroclasm and burn, but Stingscourger can slow them down to your pace on the turns when it matters (and is obviously much stronger with Vial). It also allows getting through with Lackey against anything and does better against their damage redirection shenanigans, goyfs and even ghouls than Gempalm could ever hope to. At the very least, the card warrants more testing in my opinion, as a metagame call.

Wynk
09-13-2007, 03:39 AM
Tarfire
mana cost (r)
Tribal Instant- Goblin
Tarfire deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
common


So this is tutorable by goblin matron and goblin ringleader? Wow. Tutorable instant speed removal. The new set has some interesting tribal spells.

Problem: Still doesn't stop a goyf or 15 goblin/zombie tokens.

kicks_422
09-13-2007, 08:20 AM
I'm thinking that the deck doesn't need it sonce it has Gempalm Incinerator already. If there's a black spell that's Tribal - Goblin with a playable cc that mimicks Terror/Dark Banishing, then that would be something to talk about.

GreenOne
09-13-2007, 09:03 AM
@ Tarfire: Is really that better than Fanatic? I mean, fanatic can shot the opponent too and has a nice sinergy with piledriver and the combat step in general. :tongue: Is it because it's instant speed? you can't matron for it at instant speed unless you have vial and incinerator seems better as instant speed/uncounterable/with added CA removal. Summing it up, maybe it deserves a couple slots, but it's not that killing machine.


I'm thinking that the deck doesn't need it sonce it has Gempalm Incinerator already. If there's a black spell that's Tribal - Goblin with a playable cc that mimicks Terror/Dark Banishing, then that would be something to talk about.

well, there's Fodder Launch:

Fodder Launch 3B
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
As an additional cost to play Fodder Launch, sacrifice a Goblin.
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. Fodder Launch deals 5 damage to that creature's controller.

Yeah, it's a 2 for 1, but with added 5 damage. However, the cost is quite high.

A question: if there's a 4/5 goyf in play (sorcery, instant, creature, land) and you play Fodder Launch on it, will it die? I mean, fodder launch goes in grave as last step of the resolution. Is the creature still alive at that point?

I'll ask the question on the rules thread too.

Goaswerfraiejen
09-13-2007, 09:46 AM
@ Tarfire: Is really that better than Fanatic? I mean, fanatic can shot the opponent too and has a nice sinergy with piledriver and the combat step in general. :tongue: Is it because it's instant speed? you can't matron for it at instant speed unless you have vial and incinerator seems better as instant speed/uncounterable/with added CA removal. Summing it up, maybe it deserves a couple slots, but it's not that killing machine.

Fanatic is better in Goblins, I think. Mostly for one reason: playing Tarfire will pump your opponent's Tarmogoyfs, which are already troublesome as it is. Plus, as you said, Fanatic helps Piledriver, and it can easily translate into more damage overall.




A question: if there's a 4/5 goyf in play (sorcery, instant, creature, land) and you play Fodder Launch on it, will it die? I mean, fodder launch goes in grave as last step of the resolution. Is the creature still alive at that point?

I'll ask the question on the rules thread too.


You're right; Tarmogoyf survives. Likewise, if the only thing in the graveyards is a fetchland, casting Shock on Goyf will not kill it. State-based effects are constantly checked, so as soon as the spell resolves, Goyf gets the pump.

kicks_422
09-13-2007, 09:48 AM
I think the 4cc is a bit too steep. I was thinking something along the lines of Smother.

Oh, and Goyf will die in the example you gave.

EDIT: I think. Doesn't Fodder Launch only go the graveyard after it resolves? so the 4/5 Goyf would get -5/-5 before the Tribal type hits the graveyard.

EDIT2: I guess I'm wrong.

Goaswerfraiejen
09-13-2007, 10:12 AM
EDIT: I think. Doesn't Fodder Launch only go the graveyard after it resolves? so the 4/5 Goyf would get -5/-5 before the Tribal type hits the graveyard.

EDIT2: I guess I'm wrong.

Going to the graveyard is part of a spell's resolution. MTGSalvation did a rules special on Tarmogoyf back when it came out:


From my primer on TarmoTog (the easiest way for me to find the quote in question):


Q: There are currently lands, creatures, and sorceries in both players' graveyards, so my Tarmogoyf is 3/4. What happens when it gets targeted by Sudden Death?

A: You will have one fairly lethargic, but living, Tarmogoyf.

State-based effects—those wonderful bits of rules that do things like cause you to lose the game, clean up Auras that are no longer attached to anything, and destroy creatures with lethal damage—also whisk away creatures with 0 toughness to the appropriate graveyard. However, SBEs aren't checked during the resolution of a spell or ability, but instead wait until after they've completely finished resolving and a player would gain priority again.

The last part of a spell's resolution is putting it into its owner's graveyard. Tarmogoyf is constantly rummaging around in people's graveyards trying to figure out how powerful it is (good thing it has eight fingers, otherwise it might have trouble with that). So by the time state-based effects are checked, the Sudden Death is already in its owner's graveyard and the Tarmogoyf has already gotten the go-ahead to pump itself up. The end result will be a 0/1 Tarmogoyf until the cleanup step, at which time it becomes a 4/5 again.

Tacosnape
09-13-2007, 03:03 PM
If Tarfire is real, it's still lame. Goblins has never had any problem killing something with toughness 2 or less. In fact, that's why hardly anybody plays creatures with toughness 2 or less.

Fodder Launch is actually somewhat lame also. I'm not convinced the Black Splash is worth it any more than it was before. We don't run Black with Duress, Therapy, Planar Void, Snuff Out, and the ever overlooked Cabal Slaver at our disposal, and Lorwyn's previews haven't yet showed me anything that significantly increases's Black's power. Maybe if there's a Goblin Terror, or if those dual lands turn out to be Tribal Lands, we'll talk.

morgan_coke
09-13-2007, 11:58 PM
from www.mtgsalvation.com

Boggart Shenanigans
tribal enchantment - goblin
2R
Whenever a goblin card is put into your graveyard, Boggart Shenanigans deals 1 damage to target player.

This is basically a disciple of the vault for goblin decks that doesn't die to creature removal and also pings people when you cycle a gempalm or cast tarfire.

On the downside its a +2/+2 for opposing goyfs. On the upside its matron and ringleader and warchief friendly. (yes, warchief works on it, the wording will be updated to probably say something like "goblin spells you play cost 1 less mana. goblin creatures you control have haste.")

EDIT: or maybe it already says that, almost like wizards thought of doing the tribal type in ONS block and decided to save it for later.

Bane of the Living
09-14-2007, 05:23 PM
Now this card has some promise. I really think even a one of Tarfire would be worth it as well.

Eldariel
09-14-2007, 05:34 PM
The problem is, Goblins don't need solid cards, they need amazing cards since the deck is already totally insane.

Tacosnape
09-14-2007, 05:40 PM
The problem is, Goblins don't need solid cards, they need amazing cards since the deck is already totally insane.

This is exactly correct. Pay attention to this man. He's dead on.

Boggart Shenanigans is crap. Losing Goblins is not what you want to be doing, and spending a card slot for a card that deals a mere additional -one- damage each time you do? Count me out. I doubt I'd run it if it dealt 2.

As for Gempalm, sure, it pings them for 1. Big deal. It dealing 1 off a Tarfire is irrelevant because Tarfire is also crap. If we want to shock something, we'll just Matron for a Gempalm, not a Tarfire.

Bane of the Living
09-14-2007, 05:57 PM
This is exactly correct. Pay attention to this man. He's dead on.

Boggart Shenanigans is crap. Losing Goblins is not what you want to be doing, and spending a card slot for a card that deals a mere additional -one- damage each time you do? Count me out. I doubt I'd run it if it dealt 2.

As for Gempalm, sure, it pings them for 1. Big deal. It dealing 1 off a Tarfire is irrelevant because Tarfire is also crap. If we want to shock something, we'll just Matron for a Gempalm, not a Tarfire.

No offense Taco but I think this is a little close minded. Its this kind of thinking that keeps any innovation from striking goblins. I think Boggart has some merit against decks that plan to win the long game after killing dozens of guys. It actually lets you still kill your opponent by playing blockers and chumping Tarmagoyfs all day.

Jaynel
09-15-2007, 08:39 AM
Caterwauling Boggart
3R
Creature - Goblin Shaman
Each Goblin you control can’t be blocked except by two or more creatures.
Each Elemental you control can’t be blocked except by two or more creatures.
2/2

Could this stop the senseless Goyf-on-Gob violence? Threshold usually doesn't have that many dudes out (around 2-3), so only 1 Goblin gets blocked each combat phase. It's casting cost is a little high, but Vial can help with that.

Is this any good?

Bane of the Living
09-15-2007, 12:42 PM
I think Ib Half Heart would be better. I think he's very underplayed in the wake of all these 4/5's. His token generating is amazing and does tricks if your going with a white splash for Geddons in the sb.

Im also revisting Pyromancers for the unexpected kills and Empty the Warrens nurfin.

NecroYawgmoth
09-15-2007, 03:14 PM
What about Goblins with 4 Colors?

Here is my List:

3 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:

4 Engineered Explosives
2 Armageddon
3 Planar Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip

Tacosnape
09-15-2007, 03:48 PM
No offense Taco but I think this is a little close minded. Its this kind of thinking that keeps any innovation from striking goblins. I think Boggart has some merit against decks that plan to win the long game after killing dozens of guys. It actually lets you still kill your opponent by playing blockers and chumping Tarmagoyfs all day.

Would you also say that it's closed-minded to be certain you're going to die if you jump off a cliff? I mean, neither of us have obviously ever done it before.

Goblins is jam-packed with good cards already. To replace them, we need amazing cards. Not mediocre and bad cards. Tarfire is weak, and Boggart Shenanigans is both weak and a strategy that plays to lose.


Caterwauling Boggart

Is this any good?

No. 3R for a 2/2 is way overcosted even in this deck, and the one we do run that fits in that Category is Ringleader, who is amazing.

Seriously, if you guys want an answer to all the Tarmogoyfs in the world, try Dolmen's Door. That thing is screaming Vial Goblins more than any of the Goblin tribal cards that have been spoiled thus far.

sammiel
09-15-2007, 06:11 PM
I think Ib Half Heart would be better. I think he's very underplayed in the wake of all these 4/5's. His token generating is amazing and does tricks if your going with a white splash for Geddons in the sb.

Im also revisting Pyromancers for the unexpected kills and Empty the Warrens nurfin.

the problem with Ib is that they blow up before they inflict combat damage, which means that 4/5 goyf lives.

Maybe Mogg War-Marshall, its 2 power for 2 cc, echo doesn't always have to be payed, and it gives you 3 chump blocks for goyf, or two attackers to boost a driver.

SpatulaOfTheAges
09-16-2007, 12:57 AM
No. 3R for a 2/2 is way overcosted even in this deck, and the one we do run that fits in that Category is Ringleader, who is amazing.

I don't think you can say that. The deck can support SGC and Ringleader, so you can't automatically rule out any expensive guys, as long as they work with your mana cheats.


Seriously, if you guys want an answer to all the Tarmogoyfs in the world, try Dolmen's Door. That thing is screaming Vial Goblins more than any of the Goblin tribal cards that have been spoiled thus far.

Urgh? That seems absolutely terrible. 2 mana for a non-goblin that lets your attackers live but doesn't guarantee them getting through isn't particularly amazing, to put it mildly. Onslaught would be better. Or Raging River.


the problem with Ib is that they blow up before they inflict combat damage, which means that 4/5 goyf lives.

Critical. Ib doesn't kill Goyf, so he sucks.

georgjorge
09-16-2007, 05:52 AM
If I'm correct, then Goblins doesn't only gain the "Tribal Goblin" cards in Lorwyn, but also the "Changeling" cards (they are of all creature types even if not in play) to choose from. Which gives it...

A Goblin instant for W which gives all creatures +0/+1, thus combating Clasms.

A 7/7 Goblin for 4G which only requires you to Champion (remove from game) a creature in play, which to me sounds strictly better than Goon, and always larger than Goyf.


Those sound like they could be used...just imagine dropping the 7/7 off a first-turn Lackey...

GreenOne
09-16-2007, 08:12 AM
Those sound like they could be used...just imagine dropping the 7/7 off a first-turn Lackey...

Didn't think about that. However, the 7/7 can help as a tutorable way of working around plague too. Unfortunately that's not going to work with 2x Plague, unless you do it in resp or play Goon.

However, I'm waiting for some good Tribal or Changeling answers to Combo, Goyf, and Enchantments/artifacts (main problems of gobbos right now). A tribal/changeling disenchant would be great.

Hey, I just realized that some changeling tech would be great against slivers! it would be great to see that 7/7 becoming an 8/8, flying, untargettable, hasted dude. :tongue:

Drossie
09-16-2007, 09:17 AM
What do you think of this build?
I switched from white splash to green and will test 2 Berserks MD. It can be very surprising i think...

4X Goblin Piledriver
4X Goblin Ringleader
4X Gempalm Incinerator
4X Goblin Lackey
4X Goblin Matron
4X Goblin Warchief
3X Mogg Fanatic
2X Siege-Gang Commander
2X Tin Street Hooligan
1X Goblin Sharpshooter

4X Æther Vial
2X Berserk

4X Mountain
3X Wooded Foothills
4X Taiga
3X Bloodstained Mire
4X Rishadan Port
4X Wasteland



// sideboard

4X Tormod’s Crypt
3X Krosan Grip
4X Chalice of the Void
3X Pyrokinesis


Any suggestions for Sideboard? It needs some changements i think...

kabal
09-16-2007, 11:48 AM
Boggart Mob 3b
Creature - Goblin Warrior Rare
Champion a Goblin (When this comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove another Goblin you control from the game. When this leaves play, that card returns to play.)
Whenever a Goblin you control deals combat damage to a player, put a 1/1 black Goblin Warrior creature token into play.
5/5

Black splash looking tempting?

troopatroop
09-16-2007, 12:26 PM
Boggart Mob 3b
Creature - Goblin Warrior Rare
Champion a Goblin (When this comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove another Goblin you control from the game. When this leaves play, that card returns to play.)
Whenever a Goblin you control deals combat damage to a player, put a 1/1 black Goblin Warrior creature token into play.
5/5

Black splash looking tempting?

mEH.

There's so much more bomb in Seige-Gang and Kiki-Jiki. It's completely win-more.

Tacosnape
09-16-2007, 02:39 PM
Maybe, maybe not on the big guy. Championing a Ringleader or Matron would be amusingly awesome. I don't think he's worth the black splash on his own, but he's better than most of the black I've seen and if you're already running black, he's considerable.

I suppose the biggest thing we need to remember about Goblins though is that if multiple Goblins are hitting and getting through, we're probably winning. We lose to certain fast combo decks, decks with answers we can't get rid of, and decks packing nifty hate like Clasm and Plague backed up by other awesome shit.

So I'm probably forced to conclude he'd at least some of the time be win more, but maybe not always. The 5/5 body would be more valuable than the ability.

HdH_Cthulhu
09-17-2007, 09:00 AM
There are a lot of nice black goblins in the new set!

The problem is, what to take out? Maybe Mog? I dont know...

What is the weakest Goblin in Vial Goblins?
Mog? I dont know... but postboard i play mostly without Mog!



I think whene you change the goblin deck then it must be:

1.) Changes that are very small so that you still could do the same stuff vial goblins does...

or

2.) Big Changes that makes a different Goblin deck! (Maybe Goblin-aggro control...)

lukatron2
09-17-2007, 12:44 PM
Boggart Mob 3b
Creature - Goblin Warrior Rare
Champion a Goblin (When this comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove another Goblin you control from the game. When this leaves play, that card returns to play.)
Whenever a Goblin you control deals combat damage to a player, put a 1/1 black Goblin Warrior creature token into play.
5/5

Black splash looking tempting?

This guy is SWEET against aggro control or control. He can combat Goyfs, and like someone else said, he'd be the nuts with a matron or a ringleader. He may not be super fast, but I think he would be a house if the game goes mid/late. He def warrents some testing.

TeenieBopper
09-17-2007, 12:53 PM
What is the weakest Goblin in Vial Goblins?


Piledriver. Seriously.

sammiel
09-17-2007, 01:07 PM
Piledriver. Seriously.

I would say its a tossup between Piledriver and Matron. Piledriver is great for the combo-style kills, but its too reliant on you overextending into mass removal. Matron's tutor effect is strong, but it's still a 1/1 for 3. Late game chaining one into a ringleader is great, but early on it's just absolutely terrible.

DragoFireheart
09-17-2007, 01:40 PM
I was under the impression that Piledriver was a great goblin.

I'm guessing that Siege-Gang Commander is MVP?

TeenieBopper
09-17-2007, 04:04 PM
Piledriver is the weakest goblin in the deck because it doesn't do anything, especially not by itself. You could replace Piledriver with just about any creature and not a whole lot would change. There'd be less Ringleader synergy, but that's about it. At least SGC gives you good Wrath recovery and some utility.

Think about old school Long.dec. Was it all about Tendrils of Agony? No. You could've replaced Tendril's with Grapeshot. Goblin Piledriver=Tendril's of Agony.

Bane of the Living
09-17-2007, 05:02 PM
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57241&d=1189980333

WOW. Just wow..

EDIT
Is this really real? Im freakin out.

dlevsApiJ
09-17-2007, 05:10 PM
Why? its like the goblin king, or do you think the regenerate is important? (I think you dont need it)

Mvg

Bane of the Living
09-17-2007, 05:15 PM
Of course the regen is great. You keep your Piledrivers. Regen is tech against huge attacking goyfs. It costs :2::b: which is easier than :1::r::r:. You actually want this in the mirror unlike Goblin King of suicide.

lukatron2
09-17-2007, 05:46 PM
Piledriver is the weakest goblin in the deck because it doesn't do anything, especially not by itself. You could replace Piledriver with just about any creature and not a whole lot would change. There'd be less Ringleader synergy, but that's about it. At least SGC gives you good Wrath recovery and some utility.

Think about old school Long.dec. Was it all about Tendrils of Agony? No. You could've replaced Tendril's with Grapeshot. Goblin Piledriver=Tendril's of Agony.

OMG...that is funny...you ARE joking right?...piledriver is ONE of the main reasons that Goblin Warchief is such a threat. Piledriver just wins games that you have no business winning. Piledriver forces your opponent to make decisions and loose cards that they don't want to. without piledriver, you wouldn't have a possible turn 3 win and the deck wouldn't be nearly as competative against combo and such. have you ever actually PLAYED the deck before? seriously

On a side note, I know it seems really janky and it probably is, but have you guys taken a look at "Fodder Launch" yet?

Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
As an additional cost to play Fodder Launch, sacrifice a Goblin.
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. Fodder Launch deals 5 damage to that creature's controller.

its a funny card, but I thought it was cool that you could play it for B2 with a warchief out

sammiel
09-17-2007, 05:57 PM
I don't see how you can try to come across as a goblins expert and suggest fodder launch in the same sentence.

The bottom line is that goblins is definitely seeing some serious problems with the long upswing that combo has been on, combined with tarmogoyf making the thresh matchup much more difficult. It's really easy to run around mindlessly criticizing people who are trying to evaluate what can be changed about the deck without offering anything helpful yourself.

What do you think should come out if Piledriver is so critical?

HdH_Cthulhu
09-17-2007, 06:17 PM
I have a strategy question:

You have a hand with: Vial, Mountain, Wasteland, Lakey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Matron, SGC

You are on the play!
What do you play Vial or lakey?
Against thresh-decks, combo, Mirror, Angel Stompy and Fary Stompy?

What do you play if the SGC is another Mountain?

I usualy play always Lakey but is that the correct play!?

lukatron2
09-17-2007, 06:21 PM
I don't see how you can try to come across as a goblins expert and suggest fodder launch in the same sentence.

The bottom line is that goblins is definitely seeing some serious problems with the long upswing that combo has been on, combined with tarmogoyf making the thresh matchup much more difficult. It's really easy to run around mindlessly criticizing people who are trying to evaluate what can be changed about the deck without offering anything helpful yourself.

What do you think should come out if Piledriver is so critical?

Actually I never "claimed" or said anything whatsoever about being a goblins "expert" (but I don't think that you and teeniebopper are either), but if you actually read my post you can see a variety of reasons why Piledriver is really good in this deck and should <b>probably</b> not be cut. Mainly because he gives the deck a super fast clock and makes it competative with combo. Also, if you couldn't tell by the way I wrote, I wasn't super serious about Fodder Launch either but was merely pointing it out as another answer to goyf and a potential finisher. I personally think that Boggart Mob is way better and actually warrents some testing. But just because I don't spend all of my time on the source posting a bunch of junk, doesn't mean that I don't know shit about goblins (and yea, I actually DO play the deck sometimes).
Anyhow, I think I agree with whoever said that mogg finatic is the weakest link. That or Seige gang.
The real problem is that the deck is compact as it is and all of the creatures in the deck are really good, which makes it really hard to cut one or say which is the weakest. its really hard to have a strong game against both aggro-control and combo because the cards you want against the the one deck, are opposite of the ones you want against the other.
I don't think there is any way, but if there were a way to maindeck Challice, than I think that would be pretty sweet.

Jaynel
09-17-2007, 06:50 PM
I have a strategy question:

You have a hand with: Vial, Mountain, Wasteland, Lakey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Matron, SGC

You are on the play!
What do you play Vial or lakey?
Against thresh-decks, combo, Mirror, Angel Stompy and Fary Stompy?

What do you play if the SGC is another Mountain?

I usualy play always Lakey but is that the correct play!?

I'd lead with Vial here against an unknown deck. Since your hand curves rather high (at 3cc, then 5cc) and you only see 2 lands (1 of which may be used to nuke a nonbasic), I'd feel much safer with Vial out, rather than Lackey who eats every type of removal out there. If Vial resolves, go nuts and play Lackey the next turn or Vial it in at end of turn.

Thresh: Lead with Vial. They only have Force to stop it (okay, and maybe Pithing Needle). For Lackey, they have Force, Swords to Plowshares/Lightning Bolt, and Nimble Mongoose.

Combo: Lead with Lackey, you're going balls to the wall here.

Angel Stompy: This is tough. You're probably going to lose this matchup regardless. Go with Vial so you always have the backup SGC plan.

Faerie Stompy: Also tough. Lead with Vial so you can still get Lackey into play if they go turn one Chalice@1.

Shriekmaw
09-17-2007, 06:57 PM
I have a strategy question:

You have a hand with: Vial, Mountain, Wasteland, Lakey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Matron, SGC

You are on the play!
What do you play Vial or lakey?
Against thresh-decks, combo, Mirror, Angel Stompy and Fary Stompy?

What do you play if the SGC is another Mountain?

I usualy play always Lakey but is that the correct play!?

I believe leading with Lackey is always the correct play, especially against control b/c I would rather have a aether vial stick then a lackey in most scenarios against control. Plus, with the hand above, you have wasteland to help against control decks that don't play a lot of basics. I think lackey first turn is always the correct play.

I can see in some situations that a first turn vial would be a better play, but I'm always trying to get the vial to stick rather then lackey. I always love to see your opponent using force of will on lackey which tells you that they don't have many answers for your creatures in the early game.

DWolf
09-17-2007, 07:10 PM
It has been a long time since I posted but I just had to say something here...

Piledriver weak? Tarfire bad but Mogg is fine? In what reality?

1) In addition to what Lukatron has already said the piledriver is the only card in the deck with the ability to trade 1 for 1 against a creature bigger than 2/2
Yes, he has to be attacking and he needs other goblins to be attacking too, but, this is goblins. Goblins don't plan on winning games by playing only 1 or 2 creatures at a time and if you are not attacking, you are not likely winning.

2)Piledrive being worthless by himself... true... I can give you that, lets move on...

Oh wait, so is Lackey (no goblins in hand or removal to clear the way and he does nothing)...
And Warchief (again, no goblins in hand and he is a 3 drop bear)...
Gempalm (almost worthless)

In fact, I would say that almost every card in this deck is worthless if it is forced to stand alone. The only exceptions being SGC, Kiki and maybe Sharpshooter, which are also the 3 of the 4 goblins (4th being Mogg Fan.) that have a life outside of a goblin deck.

3) I have always said Mogg Fan. was a waste and so I always run 4 bolts in what would be his slots. There are to many things that can be dropped on turn one that Mogg cant kill that can cause problems: Hyppie, Isamaru, Kird Ape just to name the first 3 that come to mind.
Friends have long told me that I shouldn't run bolt, but I still have more goblins in my R/w build (and R/g, R/b, and mono red builds) than almost anyone else.
Tarfire fixes the problem. I get shock instead of bolt and it is a goblin. I prsonally would have preferred an incinerate that was a goblin (3 damage for 1R) but that I think would be to much to ask for. Clearly Mogg is and has long been the weakest link in the deck.

4) As for all the new cards all I can say is WOW! It doesnt matter if you prefer R, R/w, R/g, or R/b, there are a ton of new toys to play with and try out. The point is I dont think there will be one clear cut R/? deck that will be the best. G gives you a 7/7 that can be dropped in off of a lackey on turn 2? White has a card that gives +0/+1 that counts as a goblin (not my style but someone out there will run it) and a 4/4 life gainer (who also counts as a goblin). And we have a ton of good new options in black, many of which have the potential to ruin someone's day.

Better yet, go on and continue saying how bad this card and that card is. It will just make it easier for me to blindside someone with a card coming out of left field

Sims
09-17-2007, 07:10 PM
have you ever actually PLAYED the deck before? seriously

He has. Probably more than you.

Piledriver isn't the strongest threat in the deck. It's a fast clock if left unchecked and is great off the top in conjunction with a warchief and some other critters already on the board, however it's a horrible topdeck after a wrath. A 1/2 for 2 isn't rather impressive on it's own, and could probably be replaced by another 2-3 drop. How often does he turn into a 3/2, swinging because you lost your lackey or mogg and the only other critter in play is a matron or warchief while you're waiting for another land to play a ringer? He's strong, but he is very swingy. I like him, and I'm not sure he's an appropriate slot for dropping, but it's not like he's THE cornerstone of the deck and removing him would make the deck fall apart.

And, as far as racing combo, in certain situations I'd rather slow down and disrupt them 'til I can win instead of trying to race. With a black splash to allow for Mad Auntie, the potential Neo-Duress, and Cabal Therapy as well as other slower options for victory (Living Death or Bidding perhaps?), I could see a build not having PD in it or boarding out PD often to bring in hate and disruption.

As far as TBs comment, it is one of the weakest links as it does nothing alone and requires friends where as SGC ends games. 4 creatures and a damage source for a 1 card investment in 5 mana (or less with chief or vial) can end games and help vastly recover after a wrath effect.... MVP all the way.

TeenieBopper
09-17-2007, 07:19 PM
Goblin Lackey is the most broken. Goblin Warchief is the most essential. Goblin Matron is the most versatile. Goblin Ringleader is card advantage. Siege Gang Commander essentially acts as card advantage. Mogg Fanatic gives the deck more of a curve, along with giving you combat tricks and removal. Don't be fooled by shiny objects and big numbers; Goblin Piledriver is there as sort of an afterthought, like "Well, shit. I'm running a metric fuckton of the dudes anyways, mise well run him too."

Goblin Piledriver isn't the reason War Chief is such a threat. Goblin War Chief is the reason Goblin War Chief such a threat, Piledriver just happens to be there. Yeah, turn three wins are nice, but if Goblins suddenly didn't have them, I wouldn't care all that much. Goblins isn't a balls out aggro deck. It's a midrange aggro deck that's given up speed for versatility and resilience. I'm not advocating cutting Goblin Piledriver. I'm simply stating that it's the weakest goblin in the deck.

Also, for what it's worth, I've been playing Goblins in some form or another since 2003, when it X-0'ed the standard portion at worlds. I helped Godzilla make the refined Vintange Restricted FCG list and made changes to Landstill domination era list before they were even proposed on the source (Jitte, Port, splash color), that helped pave the way for a Goblins dominated metagame. I've won or made top 8 in more tournaments than I care to remember, beating bad match-ups the entire way. So while I won't claim to be an expert on the deck, I will clam to be an authority. I know what I'm talking about.

/end e-peen stroke.


And, as far as racing combo, in certain situations I'd rather slow down and disrupt them 'til I can win instead of trying to race. With a black splash to allow for Mad Auntie, the potential Neo-Duress, and Cabal Therapy as well as other slower options for victory (Living Death or Bidding perhaps?), I could see a build not having PD in it or boarding out PD often to bring in hate and disruption.

I'm also really interested in seeing how good a slower, slightly controlling version of R/b goblins would be. Therapy is awesome, and Bidding is the nut high. I'm actually hoping to show up to the big tourney this weekend and playtest a little bit.

Machinus
09-17-2007, 08:52 PM
If anyone thinks they can design a Goblins deck without 2cc creatures, please PM it to me.

Lemuria
09-17-2007, 09:47 PM
rofl

No one-liners in the LMF. And if you MUST make them, they'd better be good. This was not. - Bardo

Jak
09-17-2007, 10:05 PM
So you guys are saying that just because piledriver can only be huge, that it is bad? It may not be great alone, but it still wins games. Most of the time playing against Wombat, the only time I win is with piledriver. He also speeds up the clock against combo. Being fast is still important.

The goblins I have seen have not really done anything for me. Nothing special looks like it warrants inclusion over Tin Street or Cabal Therapies.

TeenieBopper
09-17-2007, 10:39 PM
So you guys are saying that just because piledriver can only be huge, that it is bad? It may not be great alone, but it still wins games. Most of the time playing against Wombat, the only time I win is with piledriver. He also speeds up the clock against combo. Being fast is still important.

No, it's not bad, it just makes Piledriver the weakest in the deck. You know how you determine the powerful cards in magic? The ones that do things that few, if any other cards do. Goblin Piledriver turns sideways. That's it. Mon's Goblin Raiders turns sideways too. Within this deck, Piledriver is only marginally better, and that's only because he gets that little bit of added synergy because of his ability.

Funny, though, the only games I can remember winning against Wombat is laying out two or three dudes, forcing them to deal with those dudes, then playing out two or three more. Rarely did I race them.

Speaking of racing. You don't race combo. You just don't, because you can't. Except Solidarity, but that deck has always sucked anyways.

Sims
09-17-2007, 10:45 PM
So you guys are saying that just because piledriver can only be huge, that it is bad? It may not be great alone, but it still wins games. Most of the time playing against Wombat, the only time I win is with piledriver. He also speeds up the clock against combo. Being fast is still important.

The goblins I have seen have not really done anything for me. Nothing special looks like it warrants inclusion over Tin Street or Cabal Therapies.

No. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying that it's not the "OMFGWTFBBQKEKEKKEKEKEK MVP!!!11oneexclamationzzz!" card. Yes, it CAN be huge and it CAN destroy your opponent in short order. No argument there. But in a growing age where mass removal and spot removal are at a premium, Piledriver isn't as strong as it used to be. Decks run fast sweepers and E.Plagues to combat ETW and Bridge tokens, or in Kiki versions of breakfast, a bunch of Sky Hussars on top of already running as many pinpoint removal effects (STP, Burn, Black removal) to combat Tarmogoyf and Goblins takes one helluva hit in collateral damage. You can't expect to crush game 1 and then try to overwhelm with anti-hate or board tech to eek out game 2 or 3 anymore since players are packing an abundance of hate maindeck and that forces you to run less goblins to try and squeeze in an anti-hate card or two in your own MD. All of these factors make Piledriver decidedly weaker than he used to be. Yes, he can still be a turn 2/3 game finisher. More often than not he's a chump blocker, traded for a weaker creature so goyfs can smash your face, or swinging for a lame and unimpressive 1 to 3 damage while your important goblins get burned or sent farming. Mass removal makes a topdeck piledriver a nearly dead draw, as he alone will not improve your gamestate.

Piledriver and Fanatic are decidedly weaker than other cards in the deck. Matron is basically any of the goblins you need, Ringleader is obviously CA, Lackey is your nuts cheat, and warchief makes your entire army better. Siege-gang Commander is, along side ringleader, one of the best draws you could have after a wrath effect since it puts multiple threats on the board, where Piledriver beats for 1.

Is it good? Yes. Can it be stellar? Yes. Is it often beating for 1 or 3 with a matron along side it while your opponent removes anything of importance and proceeds to garner creature dominance through Goyfs/Superior Threats or assembling a combo to flat out win? Sadly, yes. He's a good card, but he's not as good as other cards in this deck. If I was looking for a place to start cutting a few cards to make room for things like Therapy, this reported Neo-Duress, or whatever... Piledriver would be on the top of my list to cut a few copies.


edit- Mike posted as I was, but I think this is still valid.

Jak
09-17-2007, 10:51 PM
Speaking of racing. You don't race combo. You just don't, because you can't. Except Solidarity, but that deck has always sucked anyways.

G1 I try.


Funny, though, the only games I can remember winning against Wombat is laying out two or three dudes, forcing them to deal with those dudes, then playing out two or three more. Rarely did I race them.

I wouldn't try and race them. I would hold back and keep 2 Piledrivers and a warchief in hand. Then wait till they wrath or something. Then vial and play them out. Now it didn't happen a lot, but whatever.
Most of the time I would do as you said.

I still think he should not be cut. That is what we were originally discussing, no? He does a lot for the deck. The deck is still tribal, and if you have no gobs in hand or play, I doubt a goblin lackey or mogg fanatic would be a great top deck.

Tacosnape
09-17-2007, 10:53 PM
I think TeenieBopper's points are highly valid, whether I agree or not. Piledriver is at best one of the worst three goblins (The others for consideration being Gempalm Incinerator due to it sucking hard against some decks, and Siege-Gang Commander for being slow/hard to cast in many situations.)

The fact that he's one of the worst three goblins in the deck, however, does not by any means make him easy to replace. Mad Auntie is good, and should probably be run in some quantity in the event of a black splash, but it has some stiff competitions in the Goblins that are already present.

However, I don't think Piledriver needs to be cut to warrant the black splash.

Tin-Street Hooligan is probably the obvious first cut if you go B/R with no green. I think in the spot of the Tin-Streets go the Mad Aunties.

Wort, Boggart Auntie might go in place of one and only one Siege-Gang Commander. You never want to clog up your hand with early SGC's (unless you get a Lackey hit), and Wort can recur the single one you Matron for.

I don't advocate the Sliver-esque Mad Auntie/Goblin King plan at all for one large reason. Slivers has success with it because it can make all its group bulkers untargetable. Goblins can't do that. Therefore you're opening yourself up to savage problems by counting on power and toughness in certain situations only to walk into instant speed removal.

And for those of you keeping track, Mogg Fanatic is incredible. It doesn't get cut. Especially considering how savage it is against Ichorid, anything packing Confidant, the mirror, etc. And rumor has it that it kills this card called Cephalid Illusionist that's showing up in some janky deck called Cephalid Breakfast, but that's probably not important.*

*(Footnotes explaining that I'm being facetious are probably in order lest I somehow get flamed in the LMF.)

Shriekmaw
09-17-2007, 11:42 PM
I believe the correct build of Vial Goblins to maintain competitiveness in the current Legacy meta game is to add both green and black. I believe black is needed in the main deck to support cabal therapy which is at least some discard against combo, the deck's weakest matchup. Currently, I'm cutting the 2 main deck tin street hooligans, sharpshooter, and 1 Goblin Matron to make sure for the 4 cabal therapies.

I do however realize that the goblin matron is a very debatable goblin to cut, but I believe its down to either 1 matron or 1 piledriver from the main deck. I just like the power behind piledriver when combined with warchief and other goblins.

I believe the green splash is still needed for krosan grip in the board, due to the existence of engineered plague that decks do still have in their side boards. I would really like to only splash the color black, but I must have a reasonable out for plague and humilty that is in existence here in Syracuse.

I know that by splashing 2 different colors it does weaken the mana base, but with all the combo decks around I believe this is a compromise that has to be made.

What do some of the others think about the proper build of goblins in order to survive in today's metagame?

Phya
09-18-2007, 07:51 AM
Piledriver isn't the strongest threat in the deck. It's a fast clock if left unchecked and is great off the top in conjunction with a warchief and some other critters already on the board, however it's a horrible topdeck after a wrath. A 1/2 for 2 isn't rather impressive on it's own, and could probably be replaced by another 2-3 drop. How often does he turn into a 3/2, swinging because you lost your lackey or mogg and the only other critter in play is a matron or warchief while you're waiting for another land to play a ringer?

1) You should almost never have 0 goblins in hand especially if you're playing against a deck with wrath effects.
2) A 3/2 pro blue for 1R is appropriately costed, while far more fair than Goyf.


Mon's Goblin Raiders turns sideways too. Within this deck, Piledriver is only marginally better, and that's only because he gets that little bit of added synergy because of his ability.

Wow, this is possible the worst analogy I've ever seen. Unless you plan on getting wrathed every turn Piledriver will almost always be a 5/2 and often a 9/2. Even when it doesn't connect it will usually be taking out a Tarmogoyf or something equally dangerous. Comparing it to a vanilla 1/1 is nothing short of insane.


Decks run fast sweepers and E.Plagues to combat ETW and Bridge tokens

If your opponent drops EP you have to kill it or you lose if you don't have Pilderiver in your deck. It's the only Goblin that still connects for more than 1, which is why Goblins can win through EP. Also as Jak said, Warchief double Driver is how you beat Wrath, if you can use Matron properly at least.


And for those of you keeping track, Mogg Fanatic is incredible. It doesn't get cut.

No it isn't. Fanatic is solid but the very best you can ask from it is to be an annoyance to your opponent. Every other Goblin in the deck has a game-winning effect, the only reason I run any at all is so I can Matron them up when I don't have any guys on the board and need to kill something small.

--------------------

When it comes to deciding what Goblins to cut my advice is to stay the hell away from the 20 Core (Matron, Warchief, Ringleader, Lackey, Piledriver). These cards power the deck. The absolute most radical thing I could justify is to cut one Ringleader, but even that seems like a bad choice. The way I see it is that these 20 & 3 Incinerators 1 SGC, 1 KJ-MB and 1 Sharpshooter are absolutely necessary, leaving you with 4-5 slots that you can fill as you like (personally I think Swords is better than any other Goblin). Removing Piledriver is such a bad idea that I can't begin to think of how to argue against it. If you aren't playing him your only threat is a weak and slow EtW. Goblins needs tweaking not an overhaul.

Drossie
09-18-2007, 08:18 AM
What do you think of this build?
I switched from white splash to green and will test 2 Berserks MD. It can be very surprising i think...
I've cutted also Kiki-Jiki...

4X Goblin Piledriver
4X Goblin Ringleader
4X Gempalm Incinerator
4X Goblin Lackey
4X Goblin Matron
4X Goblin Warchief
3X Mogg Fanatic
2X Siege-Gang Commander
2X Tin Street Hooligan
1X Goblin Sharpshooter

4X Æther Vial
2X Berserk

4X Mountain
3X Wooded Foothills
4X Taiga
3X Bloodstained Mire
4X Rishadan Port
4X Wasteland



// sideboard

4X Tormod’s Crypt
3X Krosan Grip
4X Chalice of the Void
3X Pyrokinesis
1X Goblin King


Any suggestions for Sideboard? It needs some changements i think...

dlevsApiJ
09-18-2007, 11:46 AM
Berserk's arent good i think.. If you only play 2, you put them most of the time on the bottom of your library.. I think you can better run 2 more goblins (Stingscourger is very good as 1-off.. and a 4th Mogg or maybe a Goblin Tinkerer is also good)

I will make a list, thats less Aggro and more control ore something, I hope I can post it tonight...

Mvg

Nihil Credo
09-18-2007, 11:58 AM
Berserk's arent good i think.. If you only play 2, you put them most of the time on the bottom of your library..
That's not a reason not to run Berserk. A good reason not to run Berserk is that it's only any good on a big Piledriver - and if a big Piledriver is connecting, you don't need a Berserk to win; even if Wrath hits, a SCG is all it will take to bring them down. If you don't have a big Piledriver, then Berserk becomes the world's worst Giant Growth.

TeenieBopper
09-18-2007, 01:25 PM
Beware the danger of cool things (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3350)

You guys are getting distracted by the shiny object here, namely the possibility that Goblin Piledriver has a huge front end. Really, how many times, in close matches, has a single or even double piledriver pushed through that exactly 20th point of damage? I've been playing Goblins for going on five years now, and I assure you, that's the exception rather than the norm. You just happen to remember those times because let's be honest, it's really freaking cool to play out your hand and bash for fifty. However, more often than not, you're grinding away three to five points a turn.

There are three goblins that are essential to Goblins. Goblin War Chief, Goblin Ringleader and Mogg Fanatic (though personally, I would make an argument for Goblin Matron, as well). The loss of anything else is an inconvenience (though not necessarilty a small one). The loss of any of those forces a drastic restructuring of the deck.

If Goblin Piledriver was Dwarf Piledriver, it'd suck. "Well yeah, because Dwarves suck," you say. That's correct, but Dwarves isn't good not because it doesn't have a Piledriver, it sucks because it doesn't have a Dwarf War Chief, a Dwarf Ringleader, Dwarf Matron, and Dwarf Fanatic.

I make the Long.dec analogy again. Goblin Piledriver=Tendrils of Agony. Tendrils of Agony isn't broken. It's not even the back bone of the deck. It's simply there because it makes use of the synergy that's already within the deck. Goblins isn't a deck based on speed, it's a deck based on synergy. Goblin Piledriver doesn't contribute to that synergy, it just takes advantage of it.

from Cairo
09-18-2007, 05:05 PM
Tarfire bad but Mogg is fine? In what reality?

In the Legacy format, reality. Tarfire adds the Instant and Tribal card types to the graveyard, ie: +2/+2 to Goyf. There is no reason to add card types to the deck unless its adding busted effects. And two damage doesn't seem too busted with Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm both offering similar effects in a card type you want to be running.



Fanatic is solid but the very best you can ask from it is to be an annoyance to your opponent. Every other Goblin in the deck has a game-winning effect, the only reason I run any at all is so I can Matron them up when I don't have any guys on the board and need to kill something small.


Removing Bridges from Below from Ichorid's gy, pinging down Cephalid Illusionists, killing off Dark Confidant, clearing the way for Lackey, etc may not be "game winning", but all seem like pretty good steps toward not losing the game anyway. Mogg Fanatic is definitely pulling his weight.

Shriekmaw
09-18-2007, 10:39 PM
Wort, Boggart Auntie (2BR) - Legendary Creature (Goblin Shaman)

3/3 Fear, At the beginning of your upkeep, you may return target goblin card from your graveyard to your hand.

I believe that this card is indeed interesting in Lorwyn for goblins. I believe it can be very playable with cards like warchief which would reduce the cost by 1. Something to at least think about.

Is this card playable or just some other sub par goblin?

Tacosnape
09-18-2007, 11:13 PM
When it comes to deciding what Goblins to cut my advice is to stay the hell away from the 20 Core (Matron, Warchief, Ringleader, Lackey, Piledriver). These cards power the deck. The absolute most radical thing I could justify is to cut one Ringleader, but even that seems like a bad choice. The way I see it is that these 20 & 3 Incinerators 1 SGC, 1 KJ-MB and 1 Sharpshooter are absolutely necessary, leaving you with 4-5 slots that you can fill as you like (personally I think Swords is better than any other Goblin). Removing Piledriver is such a bad idea that I can't begin to think of how to argue against it. If you aren't playing him your only threat is a weak and slow EtW. Goblins needs tweaking not an overhaul.

Your opinions aren't fact. Kiki-Jiki and Sharpshooter are far from "Absolutely necessary." I'd go so far as to wager a guess that 3 out of 4 Goblin decks that place in tournament decks don't run both, and that over half don't run either one. I personally think Kiki-Jiki is trash and I think most but not all Goblins players agree with me, and I think Sharpshooter has always been a situational card that's either amazing or awful.

Phya
09-19-2007, 12:02 AM
@ TeenieBopper

I am well aware of that argument and I completely agree with it, however I think you're stretching it too far. Just because Piledriver wins games in a dramatic way doesn't make it a bad card. I am 95% sure that I have a Piledriver on the board in over half of the games I win, and I'm confidant about it because it feels like closer to 90%. Piledriver is your main threat, cutting it from the deck is like cutting Tarmogoyf from Threshold or Exalted Angel from WW. What's your win condition then, powering out an army of 1/1s and 2/2s? If you're going to do that you might as well play TES since you win 2 turns faster. Also, if you cut Piledriver you can't get a 3rd turn kill and aside from something magical like double Lackey, double SGC, Warchief, Matron, a turn 4 win is out of the question. This means that Goblins is now at least a full turn slower, since the deck wins on turn 4 (my build) ~45% of the time.

@ from Cairo

Removing Bridges against Ichorid (assuming they didn't hit LotV) is quite strong, but the same way Gaea's Blessing was strong against Solidarity - it really depends on how much pressure you can put on your opponent to win before they can win without them. Killing Confidant is good but is a role that is much better filled, for example, by StP or Smother. Clearing the way for Lackey is also a job that Gempalm Incinerator can do much better than Fanatic. I can't speak about Cephalid Breakfast because I have yet to see it in my metagame.

@ Tacosnape

You are correct, opinions aren't fact. You pass critical thinking 101. I'll admit Sharpshooter is a metagame call, but if your metagame has Goblins, EtW, random aggro, or prison I think it's a mistake not to run it. I would never cut Kiki-Jiki and I don't care if every other Goblins player in the world agrees with you. It has the single most powerful effect of any card in your deck, almost guarantees a win with Ringleader, Matron, SGC, or Sharpshooter (situationally), and is far from useless with Lackey, Warchief, Fanatic, or Piledriver. There are countless board situations where Kiki will shift the game and no other card in your deck could, it deserves to take up one and only one slot.

And yes, that is my opinion.

from Cairo
09-19-2007, 01:56 AM
@ from Cairo

Removing Bridges against Ichorid (assuming they didn't hit LotV) is quite strong, but the same way Gaea's Blessing was strong against Solidarity - it really depends on how much pressure you can put on your opponent to win before they can win without them.


If you have no pressure on the board the game is lost regardless, this seems like a moot point. Also Gaea's Blessing is completely worthless as a card outside of combating a milling strategy, unlike Fanatic- that is my major defense for Mogg Fanatic. It fills multiple roles while all being rolled up in a 1cc threat. One such role is breaking Bridges.



Killing Confidant is good but is a role that is much better filled, for example, by StP or Smother.


Another such role is removing Confidant. Swords and Smother both can serve this role but they provide no answer to Bridge from Below. They can't be Lackey'd into play, or Ringleader'd off the top of the deck, or Matron'd (admittedly if you have Matron mana- I would likely tutor Gempalm over Fanatic, unless needed for Bridges).



Clearing the way for Lackey is also a job that Gempalm Incinerator can do much better than Fanatic.


I wasn't advocating cutting Incinerator. Having more than 4 answers to blockers seems like a very reasonable concept, considering this deck generally plans to deal most of its damage through its combat phase.



I can't speak about Cephalid Breakfast because I have yet to see it in my metagame.


Killing their combo pieces before they go off is good.


My point was that Mogg Fanatic serves all these functions, on top of pinging mana producers, or finishing off creatures after combat damage, or just turning sideways for 1 against decks where removal is unnecessary. It's not a question of whether 3-4 other cards could all be used together to fill his spot, the fact of the matter is he provides all these assets for 1 mana, in the main color you're playing, in the creature type you're playing. Yes Swords is stronger removal, but it does nothing to combat Bridges in Ichorid, it's not tutorable, its not a goblin that gets Ringleadered into, it doesn't turn sideways when removal isn't needed. In this deck it doesn't offer a fraction of the synergy or utility that Mogg Fanatic does.

BreathWeapon
09-19-2007, 04:51 AM
Mogg Fanatic is good against GY based combo and that's about it, I'd rather SB Leyline of the Void, or Planar Void in the case of a black spash, for GY based combo and MD a card that's better suited for Tarmogoyf, because GY based combo isn't as omnipresent as aggro control. I realize Mogg Fanatic serves other functions, but none of those functions addresses Goblin's tier 2 status, so something has to give.

Edit: You can Smother your own creatures.

Tacosnape
09-19-2007, 01:54 PM
Mogg Fanatic is good against GY based combo and that's about it, I'd rather SB Leyline of the Void, or Planar Void in the case of a black spash, for GY based combo and MD a card that's better suited for Tarmogoyf, because GY based combo isn't as omnipresent as aggro control. I realize Mogg Fanatic serves other functions, but none of those functions addresses Goblin's tier 2 status, so something has to give.

Edit: You can Smother your own creatures.

I don't think any of the other cards being printed is going to clearly take Goblins out of tier two either, quite frankly. Goblins will rise a good bit when every deck ever stops panic-boarding 7+ hate cards for it, but it's not a deck with a ton of evolutionary potential.

On a random note, what do you white splashers think about ol' Ajani McPlaneswalkerson? That "Put a +1/+1 counter on all creatures you control" thing could turn interesting in a heartbeat.

TeenieBopper
09-19-2007, 02:36 PM
On a random note, what do you white splashers think about ol' Ajani McPlaneswalkerson? That "Put a +1/+1 counter on all creatures you control" thing could turn interesting in a heartbeat.

Double white isn't really a splash, anymore.

As for the evolutionary potential of goblins, I think goblins itself has plenty of it, one just has to be willing to do some drastic experimentation.

dlevsApiJ
09-22-2007, 06:17 AM
For the black splash, a new card:
Thoughtseize B
Sorcery
Target player reveals his or her hand. Choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.
You lose 2 life.

New duress? It's much better, cause it can remove Goyfs (I think everyone likes this card more then Duress..).

Mvg

ps. is there someone with a R/b/g build who would post it (i dont know what to cut, i have 64 cards i want to play)

Bane of the Living
09-22-2007, 07:29 AM
If that card is real I think its probably maindeck worthy. It looks really powerfull. I wonder how a gob deck forsaking vial for those and Extirpates would do. That would be some nasty attrition for gobbos. Extirpate is fucking ridiculous against Breakfast btw.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 09:53 AM
If that card is real I think its probably maindeck worthy. It looks really powerfull. I wonder how a gob deck forsaking vial for those and Extirpates would do. That would be some nasty attrition for gobbos. Extirpate is fucking ridiculous against Breakfast btw.

You got that all wrong.

Extirpate = GG combo.

However the biggest problem with Extirpate is that the card needs to be in the yard already to target it and in non-graveyard combo based decks it is already too late.

Goblins needs something to which they can react with but doesn't need 90% of your deck to be blue to be able to use those spells [Like Force of Will].

Black is the best option for disrupting combo [Duress] while also giving removal on Goyfs [Smother]. I think we can expect to see R/b Vial Goblins as a future goblin deck if it wants to compete with aggro/control and combo, be it graveyard based or storm based.

How much will going for a black splash hurt goblins, being unable to destroy enchantments? Are there any enchantments that severly hose Goblins? [Chill for example.]

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:10 AM
Extirpate does not = GG Combo. It never did. Notice combo is Legacy expanded in the months after Extirpate was printed.

Thoughtseize and Mad Auntie seem to indicate that a black splash could be good for goblins right now, but what do replace? Unless someone wanted to do something drastic (like cutting SGC) the options seem limited.

Although I remember there was once a functioning Vial-less build...

Bane of the Living
09-22-2007, 10:14 AM
You got that all wrong.

Extirpate = GG combo.

However the biggest problem with Extirpate is that the card needs to be in the yard already to target it and in non-graveyard combo based decks it is already too late.

Goblins needs something to which they can react with but doesn't need 90% of your deck to be blue to be able to use those spells [Like Force of Will].

Black is the best option for disrupting combo [Duress] while also giving removal on Goyfs [Smother]. I think we can expect to see R/b Vial Goblins as a future goblin deck if it wants to compete with aggro/control and combo, be it graveyard based or storm based.

How much will going for a black splash hurt goblins, being unable to destroy enchantments? Are there any enchantments that severly hose Goblins? [Chill for example.]

How can you tell me Im wrong then say almost he same thing as me? Imho the graveyard based combo decks (Ichorid + Breafast) are the best combo decks. Im fine with Exi being great there and bad against TES, storm combo has fallen out of favor. Watch Gaddock Teeg come out and put the final nail in its coffin. :laugh:

I think Thoughsieze will be much better than Duress so your the one that seems a bit off. You dont want to be reactive, your goblins. You stop your opponent from playing cards preemptive with Wasteland and Port. Thoughtsieze fits this strategy by doing things like removing cheap 1-2cc spells otherwise undealt with such as Tarmagoyf. The fact that it hits combo is such a boon.


Double white isn't really a splash, anymore.

As for the evolutionary potential of goblins, I think goblins itself has plenty of it, one just has to be willing to do some drastic experimentation.

What about combo goblins with Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Empty the Warrens? I dont know if its worth adding Fecundity like Dirty Kitty but Empty is too good for just TES to be playing..

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:16 AM
The big advantage Thoughtseize will have for Goblins is giving it an actual matchup against Cephalid Breakfast. Being able to shoot out combo pieces (which are all annoyingly creatures) from their hand is come good.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 10:18 AM
How can you tell me Im wrong then say almost he same thing as me? Imho the graveyard based combo decks (Ichorid + Breafast) are the best combo decks. Im fine with Exi being great there and bad against TES, storm combo has fallen out of favor. Watch Gaddock Teeg come out and put the final nail in its coffin. :laugh:

Wait, what I said came out... damnit! :laugh:

You understand the point I was trying to make though: it's good but it's limited at the same time.


I think Thoughsieze will be much better than Duress so your the one that seems a bit off. You don't want to be reactive, your goblins. You stop your opponent from playing cards preemptive with Wasteland and Port. Thoughtsieze fits this strategy by doing things like removing cheap 1-2cc spells otherwise undealt with such as Tarmagoyf. The fact that it hits combo is such a boon.

Wait, what I meant was proactive, not reactive. My whole point was that Gobbos needs a way to fight combo decks so it's not a bye against them every time they face one. Thoughtsieze is a nice way to hit Goyfs and with the ability to run other-black removal spells like smother it should give gobbos a chance to fight Goyf-decks.

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:18 AM
Goblins has no draw, so it will often end up as a bad Belcher. I think running a heavier disruption suite with cheaper goblins is the way to go.

Bane of the Living
09-22-2007, 10:22 AM
Goblins has no draw, so it will often end up as a bad Belcher. I think running a heavier disruption suite with cheaper goblins is the way to go.

Goblin Ringleader?

If your saying the deck cant just tutor and leader up a Thoughtsieze for arguing purposes I dont see why you shouldnt argue against adding anything from the sb again.

Infact maybe we shouldnt play goblins since it doesnt have "card draw". What are you talking about with Belcher? Am I just misinterpreting you?

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:27 AM
In order to abuse Empty the Warrens with mana accel you will need a large pile of it so you can drop at least two spells prior to casting EtW. You have no means to finding the mana accel OR the EtW so you must rely on just having them in your opening hand (like Belcher), but since you have far fewer of both you end up just doing a bad version of Belcher.

Goblin Ringleader finds Goblins and puts everything else on the bottom.

Please ntoe that the "bad Belcher" was in response to your saying "Lets do Combo Goblins." His other post, I just noticed, got in the way.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 10:38 AM
Goblins has no draw, so it will often end up as a bad Belcher. I think running a heavier disruption suite with cheaper goblins is the way to go.

Are there any good goblins that are cheap that aren't already in vial gobbos? Mons Goblin Raiders?

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:39 AM
I am more cutting out SGC for stuff like Mad Auntie or, Wort, Boggart Auntie. This would help to saturate CCs to make Vials more consistent and thus more effective.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 10:40 AM
I am more cutting out SGC for stuff like Mad Auntie or, Wort, Boggart Auntie. This would help to saturate CCs to make Vials more consistent and thus more effective.

The best way to abuse vial is to get every creature to have the same CC.

Maybe the highest CC for goblins would be 3 or less? Is taking out SGG a good idea?

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:48 AM
Don't cut off the CC at 3, or you will miss out on Goblin Ringleader.

A possible new direction would be:

4 AEther Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Thoughtseize
3 Mad Auntie
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Badlands
3 Wooded Foothils
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
4 Mountain

Notice I ended up cutting maindeck Mogg Fanatics. Thanks to Toughtseize's ability to cut out blockers before they are played, Fanatic's ability is much less relevant. Wort and Mad Auntie let you keep up your assault while evening out Vial. SB you can have Cabal Therapy, Smother, Mogg Fanatic, Seige-Gang Commander, REB/Pyroblast, and Pyrostatic Pillar.

DURESSyou92
09-22-2007, 10:57 AM
these seem pretty good for the black splash

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57256&d=1190026620

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57475&stc=1&d=1190297813


Boggart Mob
3B
Creature - Goblin Warrior Rare
Champion a Goblin (When this comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove another Goblin you control from the game. When this leaves play, that card returns to play.)
Whenever a Goblin you control deals combat damage to a player, put a 1/1 black Goblin Warrior creature token into play.
5/5

Bane of the Living
09-22-2007, 11:03 AM
I was wondering about Wort, it resembles a slow unblockable Bidding effect that you can tutor. Mad card advantage thats for sure.

Im very excited for the evolution of R/B goblins. Like mentioned, what becomes of the enchantment hate? Dralnu's Crusade or Mad Auntie to deal with plague?