[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Endril]

I just felt like sharing information some of you may find useful. I've compiled a cumulative list showing what % of the field was taken up by each deck in the last 7 SCG opens. I've also included goblins wins and losses (and %) for some decks in these tournaments. All of this information can be pulled from spreadsheets shared by Jared Sylva (sp?) in his TMI articles.

Common deck archetypes, 12/09 through 6/10:
1) Merfolk (10.7%)
2) Countertop (8.9%)
3) Zoo (8.8%)
4) Dredge (6.1%)
5) Reanimator (5.8%)
6) Ad Nauseam (5.3%)
7) Goblins (4.4%)
8) Lands (4.2%)
9) Charbelcher (3.3%)
10) Threshold (2.9%)
11) Eva Green (2.5%)
12) Stax (2.5%)

Other than a (comparatively) weak showing in Atlanta by Countertop (7.5%), Countertop and Zoo have been more common in the last 5 opens than the numbers above would indicate, usually making up 10-11% of the field each. Dredge has seen a steep drop in popularity this year, and made up 2.5% of the field in Philly. The average frequency of Reanimator has increased by nearly 2% since it won Madrid. Threshold has seen a huge drop in popularity this year, and I could only find one such deck listed in the results for Philly. One deck that isn't listed above that should be is New Horizons. It made up 6.8% of the field in Philly, and I'm expecting it to stay at least that popular. Based on the information I've gathered, mixed with a little bit of guess work, I'm guessing the current SCG open meta will look something like this:

1) Zoo (~11.5%)
2) Counterop (~11%)
3) Merfolk (~10.5%)
4) New Horizons (~8.5%)
5) Reanimator (~8%)
6) Ad Nauseam (~7%)
7) Goblins (~5.5%)
8) Lands (~4.5%)

Furthermore, a friend challenged me to name which decks would top 8 in Seattle, so I decided to take a crack at it:

1) New Horizons
2) Ad Nauseam
3) Goblins
4) Zoo
5) Goblins
6) New Horizons
7) Reanimator
8) New Horizons

I'm not going into details as to why I made these guesses. We'll just see how wrong I am later today. As for the goblin matchups, enjoy:

(Goblins vs)
Merfolk 21-16-0 (56.8%)
Countertop 17-7-4 (70.8%)
Zoo 16-30-2 (34.8%)
Dredge 7-7-1 (50%)
Reanimator 16-8-0 (66.7%)
Ad Nauseam 9-11-0 (45%)
Lands 6-8-2 (42.9%)
Charbelcher 5-9-0 (35.7%)
New Horizons 3-4-0 (42.9%)
Burn 7-5-0 (58.3%)

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Why exactly is Zoo a lost matchup? From my experience it is at least 50/50, maybe even in favor of Goblins if you pack some extra removal. Wasteland+Pyrokinesis (or any other removal) can be a one-sided wrath of god. And essentially all you have to do is stay alive turns 1-3 then play out some Ringleaders to overwhelm them.
Your sideboard has too many GY hate. Run some Pyrokinesis or Perish.
A friend of mine is not even a zoo player, he just copied a list over from this board. I frequently lost gainst him, no matter what I sided. He packs 16 burn spells, all his critters are cheaper and stronger then mine. He would burn my acceleration creatures and beat me, midgame he has 2 or 3 creatures on the field, as much as me but his are larger. I cannot keep lackey, instigator, warchief or chieftain in play, those are his burn targets, so no goblin engine running. Without them I just drop weaker and more expensive creatures then him. By the time I can get serious card advantage by casting ringleader I am mostly below 10 life and get smashed with burn.
Wasteland does not help for a smart zoo player will fetch for basics vs goblins.
Pyrokinesis makes me draw less goblins, gives me worse opeining hands and I could rarely trade 2 for 2 with it.
Perish mostly hits 1 creature, sometimes 2 and comes turn 3, often too late (I do play mono R atm anyway).

[Tacosnape]

This is why I play Black/Red, and also why I play quad Instigators instead of the awful Chieftain, who is too slow for the Zoo matchup and really only improves exactly 1 matchup out of all the ones listed two posts up: The Goblin mirror.

If you're going to handle Zoo with mono-red, you need speed. Lightning Bolt, or more Stingscourgers, or Mogg War Marshals all help. Bolt's the best of the three for the matchup, though Stingscourger has more uses in general (And is sexy against Emrakul and random things like that.) Both are good in Mono Red.

I don't have nearly as much problem with Zoo. At all. I have 4 Warren Weirdings to help stem the tide early, and my Vials are much more dangerous at low numbers due to the threat of EOT Instigators. For the record, this is the list I run.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

[Neuad]

I'm a little confused by Double Strike but. . .if I attack with a Warren Instigator and it doesn't get blocked. . .it does 2 damage. . .and hits twice so I can put 2 goblins out?

[Nelis]

I'm a little confused by Double Strike but. . .if I attack with a Warren Instigator and it doesn't get blocked. . .it does 2 damage. . .and hits twice so I can put 2 goblins out?

Yep. (basically it does 1 damage first, you put a goblin into play, it does another damage (with the rest of the other creatures), you put a goblin into play)


though Stingscourger has more uses in general (And is sexy against Emrakul and random things like that.) Both are good in Mono Red.

Emrakul has protection from colored spells.

[Wargoos]

This is why I play Black/Red, and also why I play quad Instigators instead of the awful Chieftain, who is too slow for the Zoo matchup and really only improves exactly 1 matchup out of all the ones listed two posts up: The Goblin mirror.

If you're going to handle Zoo with mono-red, you need speed. Lightning Bolt, or more Stingscourgers, or Mogg War Marshals all help. Bolt's the best of the three for the matchup, though Stingscourger has more uses in general (And is sexy against Emrakul and random things like that.) Both are good in Mono Red.

I don't have nearly as much problem with Zoo. At all. I have 4 Warren Weirdings to help stem the tide early, and my Vials are much more dangerous at low numbers due to the threat of EOT Instigators. For the record, this is the list I run.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

Mind posting your sideboard pool?

[Nessaja]

Emrakul has protection from colored spells.
Stingscourger isn't a spell anymore when he's off the stack and resolved.

[Nelis]

Stingscourger isn't a spell anymore when he's off the stack and resolved.

Thanx, never realised that. I couldn't imagine Taco making a mistake like that. I should've looked it up.

[Neuad]

What do you guys think of removing the black splash and going RG vial gobbies? Something like


MAIN DECK
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
3 Tin Street Hooligan

Creatures [31]
4 AEther Vial
2 Krosan Grip

Spells [6]
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
Lands [23]

SIDEBOARD
1 Boartusk Liege
3 ??
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt

or even
-1 Forest
-2 Tin Street
+1 Swamp
+2 Weirding

and make a RGB gobbies?

[JonBarber]

What do you guys think of removing the black splash and going RG vial gobbies? Something like


MAIN DECK
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
3 Tin Street Hooligan

Creatures [31]
4 AEther Vial
2 Krosan Grip

Spells [6]
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
Lands [23]

SIDEBOARD
1 Boartusk Liege
3 ??
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt

or even
-1 Forest
-2 Tin Street
+1 Swamp
+2 Weirding

and make a RGB gobbies?

The question becomes why? What is it that your losing to so badly that you feel you need have all that hate against? Jitte? If theres really that much landstill or whatever thats packing that much goblins hate around you, play a different deck. But the green splash doesn't really help with the big stuff, such as Iona, Goyf, Sphinx, Emrakul, Progenitus, etc. Thats where the black and white splashes really shine. Personally, I feel the black splash is better because swords can't be tutored for, but it still has its benefits. Krosan grip? I wouldn't think so.

[Neuad]

The question becomes why? What is it that your losing to so badly that you feel you need have all that hate against? Jitte? If theres really that much landstill or whatever thats packing that much goblins hate around you, play a different deck. But the green splash doesn't really help with the big stuff, such as Iona, Goyf, Sphinx, Emrakul, Progenitus, etc. Thats where the black and white splashes really shine. Personally, I feel the black splash is better because swords can't be tutored for, but it still has its benefits. Krosan grip? I wouldn't think so.

I just hate that Jitte is such a game-breaker for Goblins, but I see your point.

So what about leaving the blacksplash for Warren Weirding. . .and tossing in some Taigas for a Tin Street Holligan or 2. . .and SBing KGrip. . .

Currently thinking

// Lands
3 [ROE] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [DDE] Swamp (4)
3 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

my only thought is wastelands would destroy my mana base. . . now locally I've heard wasteland isn't used very much but if I decide to take this deck to the columbus GP.

-3 Taiga
+3 Mnt
-2 Tin Street
+2 Warren Weirding


-3 KGrip
+3 Pyrokienese

Unless you think I'd be fine.

I know someone suggested not playing Kiki or Lightning Crafter, but I think they are both useful cards, atleast in my playtesting.

Say I have 5 goblins out including a piledriver. Drop a kiki > tap into another piledriver = 7 goblins in play. Full attack = rape.

Crafter is 3 free damage someone has to take or kill the thing revealing yet another ringleader or matron.

[Endril]

@Neuad: I don't agree with people that say Lightning Crafter and Kiki Jiki are bad cards. But I DO agree with people that don't run them. You've already got two to three 5 drops and four 4 drops... anything else, and you start to clog up your deck. And Lightning Crafter and Kiki Jiki certainly aren't replacements for goblin ringleaders and commanders.

And you will run in to wastelands... believe me. But I feel safe enough running 4 mountains and 1 swamp myself. I just make sure to fetch the basics unless I'm sure I can get away with grabbing duals. For that same reason, I'd up your bloodstained mire count to 4. And I think 20 lands is a little low. 18 lands that aren't wastelands sometimes leaves me wanting more, so I couldn't imagine dropping down to 16.

And I partially agree with the players that say you can just play around artifacts. You can usually get some creatures down and have some removal ready before they equip their jitte, and a lot of other artifacts don't effect you much. But I would feel a lot safer if I at least had the option of tutoring for a tin street (or scrapper in my case since I'm BR). There's other nasty artifacts, like crucible and shackles, and I'm starting to see more of them in the large metas.

You were considering dropping green, which was a change I recently made. But if you're not running ports, I think you can get away with 3 colors. And the grips are useful against the nasty artifacts I mentioned before as well as enchantments like solitary confinement and COP: Red. I'd say you could go either way on that one. But considering how much we lose to zoo, pyrokinesis wouldn't hurt.

Maybe you could make these changes:
-1 Lightning Crafter
-1 Kiki Jiki
-1 Tin Street
+1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Wooded Foothills
+1 Warren Weirding

[Neuad]

I could run ports as my friend is getting a playset soon that he won't be using right away, but I'm trying not to rely on my friends for cards for my deck. . .which is where my Duals/fetches are coming from.

Would running ports be a bad idea or nay?

[Endril]

It depends on your preference really. But you've got 15 red sources as it is, and I wouldn't recommend running any less than 14-15. It's great when you can drop a first turn vial/lackey and then keep them off 2 mana on turn 2 and 3 mana on turn 3. Some times the whole game can be won just off of that. But plenty of goblin players win without them, and if I was running 3 colors I probably wouldn't run them. I currently have 3 ports (would be 4 if it wasn't for my swamp) in my BR deck.

[Neuad]

Well then when/if he gets them maybe I'll play around with dropping green and adding Ports

Playing BRG Gobbies on MWS I'm having a blast. Wasteland hurts a little but not too bad.

[ScatmanX]

So, with your last posted list, I don't think that manabase is optimal. Let's have a look:

3 [ROE] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [DDE] Swamp (4)
3 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

you have: 2 MD black spells, and 3 Sb. 2 MD green spells (tin-street) and 3 Sb. Why then you have 1 Swamp? For maybe 5 cards? I just don't think it is worth it. (and don't think you do to, otherwise you'd be running a Forest also). Of all the decks you'd sb in Perish, only 2 have land disruption (Tempo Thresh and New Horizons), so I don't think the basic Swamp is needed in that list (mine, for instance, has total of 12 black cards md+sb, so it is more acceptable). Also, if you were to run that Swamp, run 4 Bloodstained Mire.

Now, I think that, G1, you ought to tutor Weirdings way more often that Tin-Street. Considering that and the Sb, I'd run more black than green.
And, the last thing: Endril is wright. 20 lands is way to few for goblins. For me, 21 is acceptable, 22 or 23 are great, and 24 is acceptable.

So, I think you cold do something like this with it:

3-5 [ROE] Mountain
3 [R] Badlands
3-4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
0-2 Port

Yes, Port can be used in 3 color builds. But I'd recommend it only if you had 22+lands

Now, if I may suggest something in the SB also, without changing the number of hate cards to each specific deck:

SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

Explosives come in place of K.Grip and Liege, because: 1- you use Liege against Plague (and maybe zoo/mirror). Well, EE destroys Plague, and is good against Zoo (not so much against mirror). 2 - the only 2 enchantments/artifacts you ought want to destroy with K.Grip and can't with EE are Moat and Humility. Decks that use those, we already have a positive MU. And you still have 2 K.Grip left. EE is way more versatile, once you can put it in against Dredge, Combo, Zoo, Folk...

[Neuad]

My SB was actually still being worked on, I was unhappy with Pyrokinesis anyway.

Playing around with Mono-red, BR, and GBR all on MWS I think I'm going to settle on BR for now.

// Lands
5 [ROE] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives

[ScatmanX]

list

That is a great list. I just don't think EE is worth it in a 2 color build. Maybe 1-2, but against what would you want 4?

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

This is why I play Black/Red, and also why I play quad Instigators instead of the awful Chieftain, who is too slow for the Zoo matchup and really only improves exactly 1 matchup out of all the ones listed two posts up: The Goblin mirror.

If you're going to handle Zoo with mono-red, you need speed. Lightning Bolt, or more Stingscourgers, or Mogg War Marshals all help. Bolt's the best of the three for the matchup, though Stingscourger has more uses in general (And is sexy against Emrakul and random things like that.) Both are good in Mono Red.

I don't have nearly as much problem with Zoo. At all. I have 4 Warren Weirdings to help stem the tide early, and my Vials are much more dangerous at low numbers due to the threat of EOT Instigators. For the record, this is the list I run.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
Thanks for the suggestion, bolt works wonders against zoo.
I do not quite agree that the chieftain only improves the mirror. 3 probably are too much (there already are 8 fixed cards in the 3 mana slot), I did cut one. But 2 extra haste lords do improve the deck plan, especially for mono R lists. Haste is very important plus they do improve the damage output quite a bit and allow nasty combat tricks with instigator. Seeing him being removal target so often tells me people do fear him.
About the question of 2 or 3 sgc: I do think 3 are too much. Drawing into 2 of them early slows the deck, you want to topdeck him, not having him in your opening hand often. There are quite many games that end before dropping the fifth land. An unanswered instigator can drop him with matron anyway.
Instigators should be an auto 4 of, like I said before, the second best 2 mana goblin!

About the color splashing: are there any numbers about how well which color splashes did in tournaments?
To my experience mana denial hurts goblins pretty bad. Shutting up stifle and wasteland helps in a lot of matchups. I am specificly thinking about merfolk, nogoyf, canadian thresh, team america here.
Weirding does superior against reanimator and progenitus but worse against burn (PoP)
What do you think?
[edit]my current list for anyone interested:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [B] Mountain (3)
6 [B] Mountain (1)
6 [B] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [B] Lightning Bolt

[Endril]

I think that list is pretty solid. I prefer more than 6 removal cards MD, and I believe pyrokinesis is better in the SB than L Bolt. I run L. Bolt in the main myself, but pyrokinesis can take out multiple targets and it's free. I'd rather see it than bolt against merfolk and goblins, and it's almost as good against zoo. But with the right amount of luck and a good pilot, that deck could get some wins.

Concerning mana denial, I've played 60+ matches with my BR deck and I've had 1 land stifled. I wouldn't worry too much about it. And depending on what tournament you're going to, you're not likely to run into threshold or team america. They've gone down in popularity over the last couple months. New Horizons could be an issue though. And while I don't get stifled often, I do get hit by wastelands often. My answer is usually to fetch basics, but I sometimes have to keep a hand with a dual or two and that's when the wastelands hurt. But I think weirding makes it worth it. It helps against Zoo, Merfolk, Countertop, New Horizons and Reanimator, and that's almost half of my meta.

[Neuad]

That is a great list. I just don't think EE is worth it in a 2 color build. Maybe 1-2, but against what would you want 4?

-3 EE's
+3 Pyrokenieses (sp?)

or 2 and 2. . .?

[ScatmanX]

-3 EE's
+3 Pyrokenieses (sp?)

or 2 and 2. . .?

I do think Knesis is a good idea, because you have to few cards to side in against the mirror, and it is good in so many other MU's. you just have to play it extremely carefully.

[Neuad]

Well playing this list on MWS I really like it, I'm bringing it to the local legacy tourney and going to playtest it against some of the decks there inbetween rounds. . .hopefully I can settle and have it all bought before Sunday so I can enter the GPT!


What do you guys side out for the GY hate and whatnot?

I had some much trouble narrowing it down to 60 for my MB I have no clue what I should take out for SB. . . .

[GoboLord]

Well playing this list on MWS I really like it, I'm bringing it to the local legacy tourney and going to playtest it against some of the decks there inbetween rounds. . .hopefully I can settle and have it all bought before Sunday so I can enter the GPT!


What do you guys side out for the GY hate and whatnot?

I had some much trouble narrowing it down to 60 for my MB I have no clue what I should take out for SB. . . .

Against decks which dont have any creatures you can board you removal-goblins.
Depending on my opponents deck i sometimes board Chieftain an 1 - 2 SGCs. You should probably think about boarding Instigators if you really play to bring in EE on 2.

[ScatmanX]

Established Decks?!?!
Common! More people need to play this deecckk!!!

@Neuad: will post SB thoughts later. No time now. (I assume your list is the last you posted in this page, aswell as the sb)


// Lands
5 [ROE] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Knesis

So:
Goblins: +3 Knesis + 1 Liege (+1EE); -3 Weirdings - 1(2) Piledrivers
Folk: +3 Knesis + 1 Liege +1EE; -2 Chieftain - 3 WW or -1 Instigator - 1 SGC - 1 Ringleader (I personally keep Weirdings in, because we can usually kill all of the folks - just be aware not to hit Mutavault with it)
Elves: +3 Perish +3 Knesis; - 2 Ringleader - 2 Piledriver - 2 Weirdings
Dredge: +1 Relic + 2 Tormords + 1 EE + 3 Knesis; -1 Instigator - 3(4) Ringleader - x Weirdings

It may seem weird to side out Ringleader against elves or dredge but, the reasoning are: 1- they're fast as hell, so card advantage has no use if you don't get the chance to use them; 2- we bring in too many non-goblins, making them less-good (not bad, but less-good).

well, this are my takes for now. Any specific mach?

[Neuad]

I made a few changes to my SB as I bought the cards, talked to my friends and people who know our meta extremely well and looked through friends cards.

SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Knesis

-3 Perish
-1 EE
+1 Relic
+3 Sphere of Resistance

Perish may be better then Sphere but A the card store didn't have any Perish's and my friends had 3 Sphere's

and B my meta is very combo heavy so more combo hate is good.

[daPaule]

and B my meta is very combo heavy so more combo hate is good.

Then why are you going to play a deck without blue ?

[Nessaja]

Perish may be better then Sphere but A the card store didn't have any Perish's and my friends had 3 Sphere's

and B my meta is very combo heavy so more combo hate is good.
Strictly worse then Thorn of Amethyst against combo (for goblins). And I don't like using that term.

[Neuad]

Strictly worse then Thorn of Amethyst against combo (for goblins). And I don't like using that term.

I know, but like I said they were free and I didn't find any perish's, so I'll upgrade if I get the chance.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Clearly, the two second-best cards to play against combo, based on power level alone are Pyrostatic Pillar and Mindbreak Trap. Both have advantages - but from experience I will tell you that a resolved Pillar is almost GG's for a storm deck. It costs probably 4 life just to try to remove the damn thing from the board. But if you are more concerned about them trying to win turn 1, or turn 2 on the play, then clearly Trap is better for you, giving you at least a shot to stop them.

[alphastorm]

Then why are you going to play a deck without blue ?

blue red goblins? What would you add? Mana leak?

[daPaule]

blue red goblins? What would you add? Mana leak?

A meta being heavy comboish is just something where you should leave your goblins at home and take the fishes instead.

We had the combo discussion not a so long time ago. The conclusion is more or less that nothing stops them. IF we get lucky it buys us enough time to make it hard for the opponent or maybe we end up even winning. But the matchup is still unfavorable.

Besides: Mystical Tutor (banned July 1, 2010)

This may also slow it somewhat down.

[jtwilkins]

Landstill would be first choice. I would also look at brainstorm and FoW.

[Wargoos]

Landstill would be first choice. I would also look at brainstorm and FoW.

The card's name is Standstill.
Landstill is the archetype.
For FoW you need at least 16 U-cards, brainstorm needs fetchies.
Honestly I don't see this approach any good.
You don't get any removal out of it and you are weakening the ringleaders by adding non-goblin cards.
Goblins also win because of mass creatures - adding instants and enchantments is against the gameplan.

[jtwilkins]

I hope of feels good to point out the short comings of others.

He asked what cards, if you never test cards or push the limit then formats wouldn't evolve. Goblins is not the win any more I would not consider it a top tier deck in a format with better agro decks.

Yes, by landstill I ment to type standstill. It has amazing synergy with goblins and I LOVE to play against the card and watch the persons face as I pop out goblin after goblin the draw 3 cards when they crack. With Standstill you may be able to make up for ringleaders.

If you were playing R/U goblins I am sure you would be using Scalding Tarn for brainstorm.

I don't know what the answer is but goyfs, Knight of the Reliquary, Cabal Pit + loam and about 5 other staples are eating goblins lunch.

[Wargoos]

I hope of feels good to point out the short comings of others.

He asked what cards, if you never test cards or push the limit then formats wouldn't evolve. Goblins is not the win any more I would not consider it a top tier deck in a format with better agro decks.

Yes, by landstill I ment to type standstill. It has amazing synergy with goblins and I LOVE to play against the card and watch the persons face as I pop out goblin after goblin the draw 3 cards when they crack. With Standstill you may be able to make up for ringleaders.

If you were playing R/U goblins I am sure you would be using Scalding Tarn for brainstorm.

I don't know what the answer is but goyfs, Knight of the Reliquary, Cabal Pit + loam and about 5 other staples are eating goblins lunch.

Just helping people to understand more what you mean, not pointing out your "short comings".

Also it's not like splashing blue wasn't tried before, I was just offering productive cons to this debatte again.
Yes, there are better aggro decks in the format right now, but none of those has the cardadvantage engine that goblins possess in Ringleader, which pushes goblins strong into tier1 direction.
Standstill ingeneral has a strong synergy with aether vial and goblins is not the deck that is possible to abuse standstill the most.
Merfolk and Dreadstill profit on standstill since they were centered around it as their premium ca-engine.
Zoo is stuffed with dangerous cc1 drops that you will likely have to break your own standstills or hold them back to try and do something relevant
against the opponents board. Dredge can negate your standstill by not playing anyspell and still winning with recurring ichorids and zombies.

Having 4 fetches for brainstorm is just marginally better than having none, I don't know the right number of shuffle effects for effective brainstorming but 4 seems bit too low.
Also U offers no answers to the problem staples you mentioned. All of those are creatures, which makes removal more relevant than implementing another cardadvantage engine over ringleader that works worse.

If you really like standstills so much you really should consider playing merfolk.
The u-splash for goblins offers the deck nothing new.

PS: When you want a blue splash than at least mention daze - the best card blue could offer for this deck.

[ScatmanX]

explanation

Don't worry about him, he's just trolling...

[Neuad]

// Lands
5 [ROE] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis


Theres the deck I settled on for Sundays GPT

I have a Boartusk Liege, 3 Spheres of Resistance, and 3 Pyrostatic Pillars also to play around with and see what I like more.

Thanks for all the advice <3

[bakofried]

So how should we prep for a meta without ANT? Or with a nerfed Reanimator? And should we prep for Monolith abusing decks?

[ScatmanX]

@ Neuad: The list looks solid?
The GPT is after the banning becomes legal? if it is shortly after that, I'd not run any storm combo hate in the SB, once I guess people will not be playing storm so soon. They have a lot of playtest to do.

However, I do not think we should prepare for anything because of these changes. Nobody knows what will show up with the banning/unbanning, so I guess we could wait and see.

[bakofried]

Hmmm....
I won't be able to go to GP Columbus, but I really want a Goblin deck to do well. Do you think you should still prep for CounterTop Progenitus in large numbers?

[Neuad]

@ Neuad: The list looks solid?
The GPT is after the banning becomes legal? if it is shortly after that, I'd not run any storm combo hate in the SB, once I guess people will not be playing storm so soon. They have a lot of playtest to do.

However, I do not think we should prepare for anything because of these changes. Nobody knows what will show up with the banning/unbanning, so I guess we could wait and see.

GPT is tomorrow, and then another one we are going to on the 26th. . .

So the only two I know of are pre-bannings, I can keep an eye on this thread and see what pops up to adjust my SB accordingly.

Thanks <3

[Endril]

Hmmm....
I won't be able to go to GP Columbus, but I really want a Goblin deck to do well. Do you think you should still prep for CounterTop Progenitus in large numbers?

No I don't. But not because I don't expect to see it. It's made up over 10% of the field for some time now. But since goblins beats countertop about 70% of the time, I'd worry more about other decks while making SB choices. If anything, have an answer to Progenitus. That 70% win ratio is vs all countertop decks, so it's possible we have a little more trouble with natural order.

[ScatmanX]

No I don't. But not because I don't expect to see it. It's made up over 10% of the field for some time now. But since goblins beats countertop about 70% of the time, I'd worry more about other decks while making SB choices. If anything, have an answer to Progenitus. That 70% win ratio is vs all countertop decks, so it's possible we have a little more trouble with natural order.

Also, Rb lists have no problem at all dealing with Progenitus, since we use 2-4 md tutorable edicts and 3-4 sb Perish.

[gmeroni]

Hello Guys, I need some help here, I've decided to start with a MonoRed Goblin (Money problem), but if this configuration will give me some satisfaction maybe i'll put another color (Like White or Black). Now i've this configuration...Any Advice?


//Goblin


//Creatures
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin King
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic

//Spell
4 AEther Vial
3 Pyrokinesis

//Lands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
13 Mountain

//Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast

Thanks!!:smile:

[Vacrix]

blue red goblins? What would you add? Mana leak?
A friend's friend actually took 9th at our local event, play 4 Soaring Seacliff. Jumping Lackey's is fun. Jumping Piledriver is straight up 'shit your pants' scary.
:D

[JonBarber]

A friend's friend actually took 9th at our local event, play 4 Soaring Seacliff. Jumping Lackey's is fun. Jumping Piledriver is straight up 'shit your pants' scary.
:D

Haha, 9th at a local event isn't really saying much...

[Vacrix]

Agreed! Actually he peaced before playing his 5th match and STILL took 9th. I think he went 3-2. His last matchup was Merfolk, which he could have easily won but he had to leave early. Does anyone else play a list like that? Its pretty nasty secret tech.

[ScatmanX]

There is also that new land, that is like Soaring Seacliff, but it makes the creature unblockable, and adds red. I guess is better.

[JonBarber]

Agreed! Actually he peaced before playing his 5th match and STILL took 9th. I think he went 3-2. His last matchup was Merfolk, which he could have easily won but he had to leave early. Does anyone else play a list like that? Its pretty nasty secret tech.

It was talked about a long time ago. The general consensus was that it wasn't good enough. The land base is already iffy enough, especially if playing a splash, that you really don't want to run the risk of losing simply because of tech. Also, its always better to deal with their first drop than attempt to ignore it. Bouncing/killing it really helps set you ahead.

[Vacrix]

There is also that new land, that is like Soaring Seacliff, but it makes the creature unblockable, and adds red. I guess is better.
I'm intrigued. Seacliff that taps for R seems pretty good. Do you know the name?

[ScatmanX]

I'm intrigued. Seacliff that taps for R seems pretty good. Do you know the name?

Smoldering Spires

And only 1 creature can't block. But usually, that's all we need.

[JonBarber]

Smoldering Spires

And only 1 creature can't block. But usually, that's all we need.

Falls under the same problem. If your opening hand is that and a wasteland, and you have the T1 lackey, you'll be cursing it. And as I mentioned before, it doesn't deal with their early drop, which is usually a good idea.

[ScatmanX]

Falls under the same problem. If your opening hand is that and a wasteland, and you have the T1 lackey, you'll be cursing it. And as I mentioned before, it doesn't deal with their early drop, which is usually a good idea.

I don't said it was good, neither recommend people to use it. I tested, and didnt like it.
Just saying it exists, as a part of that conversation.

[JonBarber]

I don't said it was good, neither recommend people to use it. I tested, and didnt like it.
Just saying it exists, as a part of that conversation.

Never said you did =). Just explaining why it probably should be played

[Vacrix]

What if you drop Ports and run Smoldering Spires in place of it? Just a thought. Or maybe that would be more suitable for a budget list.

[ScatmanX]

What if you drop Ports and run Smoldering Spires in place of it? Just a thought. Or maybe that would be more suitable for a budget list.

Something like that. IF you were to run that land, it should not be conted as a land. When I tested it, it was in a Port-less version, with 24 Lands, so I'd still have 15 red producing lands for my turn 1 (24 - 4 waste, 4 of this, 1 swamp). The card is more like a spell, with the bonus that adds mana.

[Neuad]

Back from the GPT, ran this list

// Lands
5 [ROE] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis


6 Rounds, cut to top8. . .36 people started out.

1st round bye. . . yaya me!

2nd round ANT, player took a 1 game loss due to decklist screwup, '2nd' game he blew his load all over me 2nd turn. 3rd game sided out 3 weirdings and a ringleader for 4 Thorns, got an early thorns out and beat him down to 4ish before he KGripped it. Killed himself trying to combo out.

3rd round New Horizons shit on my life 2 games in a row. Sided in Perishes 2nd game but never saw them.

4th round was Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the void combo deck. He combo'd out 1st round, 2nd round I sided in thorns but never saw them and managed to pull out a W. . .same with 3rd.

5th round was my first epic 'holy hell I just pulled out an amazing win' game. New Horizons I think. Won game 1. Sided in perishes and dropped a big bomb on him, was at 3 hp and I popped 2 fetches and was able to counter everything and anything he could do to power up his Jitte and kicked his face in. My adrenaline was rushing for a good 30 minutes after that win.

6th round draw against zoo so we both top8'd.

First round top8 played the Helm/Leyline guy again and got stomped 2 in a row.

Ended up 7th, Helm/Leyline went on to final 2 against ethier CanThres or something else I didn't even pay attention to that last semi-finals game.

4 Goblins showed, 1 the pilot kind of sucked, another was a mish-mash of cards barrowed from friends at the tournement and went to top4. 3rd finished 8th and me at 7th.

Walked out with a ton of experience, with it being my first 'big tournement' and first real matchups with my goblin deck, and a Phyrexian Dreadnought. Very happy.

Thanks for all the excellent advice that made this possible <3

[ScatmanX]

Congratulations!
You was paired against some not so easy MU's. 2 combo decks, 1 twice.
I think thats pretty much unwinable. Guess that -1 Knesis, +1 Earwig Squad SB could really help.

[Neuad]

I was thinking -1 SGC +1 Goblin Tinkerer MB, if it really works find a way to fit another 1 or 2 in.

And yeah -1 pyro +1 EWS would work SB.

[ScatmanX]

I was thinking -1 SGC +1 Goblin Tinkerer MB

Tinker is a really lousy card for MB imo, but it depends on meta.
You didnt use one even in the SB, so why maindeck one?
Regarding the MU's you faced in the champ, Tinker would be bad in all of them (assuming the combo players were smart...).

[Neuad]

True, so maybe just the EWG or 2 in SB, and I'll test that.

Now that ANT is going to die out a bit, would you think its safe to remove a thorn or 2? Or are they still good?

[ScatmanX]

Now that ANT is going to die out a bit, would you think its safe to remove a thorn or 2? Or are they still good?

My plan is to ignore combo. I only have 1 Squad against them. Not a fan of using sb slots for it.
If you like them, use them. I dont know. We should also wait and see what happens to the meta...

[Neuad]

True.

My meta tends to run heavy on enchantress so I need to find an answer for them for my SB.

Last wedensday there was 3 of them there, but goblins still made it top8 atleast.

[GoboLord]

Ignoring combo is IMO not an option. We should run (as you said) cards that improve our 50/50-MUs and, as a side-effect, are somewhat good against combo.

Earwig Squad
Red Elemental Blast
...


Any other suggestions?

btw. did anyone try Price of Progress in SB? NOt as combo hate of course :D

I saw a burn.dec-guy on the tourney last sunday who fucked up some Bant-boys :D

[Jonathan Alexander]

With Lands likely to be big after the bannings, what do think about Blood Moon in the board? I don't think that it's too much of an issue that won't drop before turn three since Lands isn't exactly the fastes deck out there, is it? Still, I'm not sure which version of Goblins will be better, Mono Red or Red Black. Do you think it's an issue of playstyle, metagame or something else?
And talking about splashing or not, which version do you think is better to start out with? I really like the thought of being hit by Wasteland at all, so I think I'll try out a Mono Red list without Ports at first. What do you guys think?

[daPaule]

With Lands likely to be big after the bannings, what do think about Blood Moon in the board? I don't think that it's too much of an issue that won't drop before turn three since Lands isn't exactly the fastes deck out there, is it? Still, I'm not sure which version of Goblins will be better, Mono Red or Red Black. Do you think it's an issue of playstyle, metagame or something else?
And talking about splashing or not, which version do you think is better to start out with? I really like the thought of being hit by Wasteland at all, so I think I'll try out a Mono Red list without Ports at first. What do you guys think?

I'm running R/b with Bloodmoon in SB. It comes in handy vs lands and bant too, nevertheless vs lands you have to consider they can shut you down so you will not be able to drop that enchantment cause of wastelands / ports, pop on the other hand could be casted in response to port.
Without any further damage pop will not win you the game whereas blood moon will ;)

So i'm still undecided of whether to play blood moon or pop.

You can start by running mono red, the basics are the same. Considering a normal R/b build the only changes to a mono red list are the 3 weirdings MD and of course the perish in the SB. The splash isn't that big after all.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Of course the splash isn't mssive, but I think Earwig Squad and Extirpate (maybe Leyline) should be mentioned as well. Though I have to agree that mainboard tutorable Edicts are incredibly nice and along with Perish from the board the main reasons to play black. I guess I'll just have to try out both lists, but play mono red in the first place.
Whatever, I don't believe that casting Blood Moon in mono red should be that hard against Lands. You won't get hit by Wasteland so they only have Port to slow you down whereas you can Wasteland their Ports. The matchup should definitely be winable postboard. I didn't play against Lands that much at all but it seems definitely doable since you can easily win by just playing hate. The deck is just so slow without Loam.

[LostButSeeking]

So, I'm thinking of building goblins. I wanted to build goblins in december, but didn't quite manage it. I spent the next semester in Africa (playing no magic), come back, and still want to build goblins. I'm about to trade for Ports and Wastes . . . when I check the goblin thread and there're no lists in the last five pages that run ports and wastes. Tacnosnape runs a list (and is a deckbuilding I respect very much) that isn't running EITHER of them.

How typical is this? Are people still running ports and wastes in their lists but just aren't posting them because they aren't new and inovative (IE, are pretty much the same lists I saw six months ago?) Or has a metagame shift occured for most people that means that ports and wastes are less useful than running ~20ish mana producing lands of two different colors? If so, what was the shift and under what conditions would one package be better than the other?

[ScatmanX]

So, I'm thinking of building goblins. I wanted to build goblins in december, but didn't quite manage it. I spent the next semester in Africa (playing no magic), come back, and still want to build goblins. I'm about to trade for Ports and Wastes . . . when I check the goblin thread and there're no lists in the last five pages that run ports and wastes. Tacnosnape runs a list (and is a deckbuilding I respect very much) that isn't running EITHER of them.

How typical is this? Are people still running ports and wastes in their lists but just aren't posting them because they aren't new and inovative (IE, are pretty much the same lists I saw six months ago?) Or has a metagame shift occured for most people that means that ports and wastes are less useful than running ~20ish mana producing lands of two different colors? If so, what was the shift and under what conditions would one package be better than the other?

There are very few people that run 0 Wastelands. It is a great card for Goblins, buying time for Vial/Lackey, and getting rid of problematic lands. There are a few that dont run them, like Pulp, but I think thats weird...

About Port, thats a matter of playstyle. There are lists running 4, and lists running 0. That depends a lot on the build, like, how many lands you play, how many RR and RR1 cards you have, and what you want to do in your 1sts turns.

IMO, depnetly pick Wastes, but test Ports to see if they are worth it for you.

Also, of course, this depends on your meta. There are metas where even Wastes are useless... and others that Port shines.

[Neuad]

So Wedensday was my first day in my local meta with Goblins, and today was the GPT at the place I normally play.

I think goblins is just a bad choice for my meta.

Game1 Wedensday I went 1-3.

Game1 against my friend who helped me make the deck, Bant Survival I think, went 0-2.

Game2 paired up against zoo with a terrible pilot and crushed him 2-0. Okay game1 was just because my friend knows my deck so well.

Game3. Imperial painted. Crushed 2-0. Okay fast combo deck not much I could have done. . .really wish I had more answers other then throw creatures at it.

Game4. Goblin Mirror. Shitty goblin mirror. He was running moggs and no vials and such. Poor mans goblin mirror. Beat 1-2. He had burn to sub for more goblins so he managed to get me low.


Today at the GPT

Game 1 - Landstill. 0-1

Game 2 - Landstill. 0-2

Game 3 - Lands. 1-2

I'm losing all faith in this deck at this point. Was ready to skip round4 and go acrossed the street to the bar.

Game 4 - New Horizons. 2-1.

Did I just get 6 really bad matchups in a row for goblins? Or is splashing green for kgrips a decent solution? Or is that just a bandaid on a gunshot wound for my meta?

Should I just sideboard goblins for awhile and build another deck with more options other then throw shit at it?

[FoulQ]

So, I'm thinking of building goblins. I wanted to build goblins in december, but didn't quite manage it. I spent the next semester in Africa (playing no magic), come back, and still want to build goblins. I'm about to trade for Ports and Wastes . . . when I check the goblin thread and there're no lists in the last five pages that run ports and wastes. Tacnosnape runs a list (and is a deckbuilding I respect very much) that isn't running EITHER of them.

How typical is this? Are people still running ports and wastes in their lists but just aren't posting them because they aren't new and inovative (IE, are pretty much the same lists I saw six months ago?) Or has a metagame shift occured for most people that means that ports and wastes are less useful than running ~20ish mana producing lands of two different colors? If so, what was the shift and under what conditions would one package be better than the other?

You'd be making a mistake if you don't pick up wastelands. 0 waste builds are the exception to the norm. Plus, if you buy them, you can be safe knowing their value can only go up, so they are a solid investment. Playing without waste is actually more difficult and you should not move onto that until you are comfortable playing the waste builds.

[jtwilkins]

Your post is confusing... Records go (Win - Loss - Tie) not (Loss - Win)

Also you should post a deck list. But all that said I think goblins is weak right now. Gets killed by goyfs, new horizons and combo. Landstill is a good matchup and you should have owned them making the eat their own standstill.

[lordofthepit]

So, I'm thinking of building goblins. I wanted to build goblins in december, but didn't quite manage it. I spent the next semester in Africa (playing no magic), come back, and still want to build goblins. I'm about to trade for Ports and Wastes . . . when I check the goblin thread and there're no lists in the last five pages that run ports and wastes. Tacnosnape runs a list (and is a deckbuilding I respect very much) that isn't running EITHER of them.

As far as I can tell, Tacosnape is running Wastelands. I'm not of any serious build (besides budget constrained ones) that doesn't run Wasteland. I'd say they're a mandatory 4-of.

I'm more ambivalent about Rishadan Port. I recently splurged for a playset, but I'm still not sure if I want to include it in Goblins. I'd say it's a metagame call.

[Neuad]

Your post is confusing... Records go (Win - Loss - Tie) not (Loss - Win)

Also you should post a deck list. But all that said I think goblins is weak right now. Gets killed by goyfs, new horizons and combo. Landstill is a good matchup and you should have owned them making the eat their own standstill.


So Wedensday was my first day in my local meta with Goblins, and today was the GPT at the place I normally play.

I think goblins is just a bad choice for my meta.


Game1 Bant Survival I think, went 0-2-0

Game2. Zoo. 2-0-0.

Game3. Imperial painted. 0-2-0

Game4. Goblin Mirror. Beat 1-2-0.


Today at the GPT

Game 1 - Landstill. 0-1-1

Game 2 - Landstill. 0-2-0

Game 3 - Lands. 1-2-0

Game 4 - New Horizons. 2-1-0

Edited to make more sense.

Decklist is

// Lands
5 [ROE] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 Lightning Crafter

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Earwig Squad

Landstill one guy got Moat off before I could finish him off. And he Cunning Wished for Pulse of The Field.

The 2nd guy got humility off, then used an artifact whose name escapes me to imprint STP. He had plenty of mana to swords a new guy every turn.

[markbris]

As far as I can tell, Tacosnape is running Wastelands. I'm not of any serious build (besides budget constrained ones) that doesn't run Wasteland. I'd say they're a mandatory 4-of.

I'm more ambivalent about Rishadan Port. I recently splurged for a playset, but I'm still not sure if I want to include it in Goblins. I'd say it's a metagame call.

tacosnape does run wastelands, every goblin deck should be running 4, theres no other way.

[orcanmail]

i run a white splash and main deck 3 STP, and in my sideboard i run 3 disenchants and 2 tempest of lights, plus 2 goblin tinkerers, to take care of enchantments and artifacts.
i know green splashes can also take care of enchantments, but white also gets you swords to plowshares which are so good that i stick with my white splash.
it's because of moats, humility etc, that i just can't run mono red. i know the talk is all about green/black splashes, but white with the 3 cards i named seems a better option to me. stp, disenchants, and tempests of light which have not been seriously discussed on this thread. they may be 3 mana, but are an instant speed tranquility. so what do you guys think?

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Swords is bad. Try path to exile. But i think you're right, the white splash works best.

[Nidd]

Swords is bad. Try path to exile. But i think you're right, the white splash works best.

Might as well pull out the Wastelands when you run PtE.

[Neuad]

I like the idea of a white splash. . .take out to blacksplash and go white. . .

something like

-3 Warren
-1 Swamp
-4 Badlands

+4 Plateau
+4 STP

SB

-1 Earwig
-3 Perish
-1 Thorns
+3 Tempest
+2 Disenchant

?


Also with ethier green or white splash, how do you feel about Kitchen Finks SB to help with zoo? Or is that just too much non-goblin and wrecks our day?


Edit - I know Humility is an extremely complex and annoying card to rule on, but do come into play abilities (read - Ringleader) still happen? Or are creatures 1/1 with no abilities while in your hand aswell?

[daPaule]

+3 Tempest

Edit - I know Humility is an extremely complex and annoying card to rule on, but do come into play abilities (read - Ringleader) still happen? Or are creatures 1/1 with no abilities while in your hand aswell?

Please use card tag, i don't know what tempest should be, according to magiccards.info a card with that name doesn't exist.
/e: nevermind, just read last post

Humilty doesn't change creatures in hand, but to trigger a CIP it needs to be in play. There it's a 1/1 without effect therefore a CIP won't trigger.

[Neuad]

Yeah sorry, Tempest of Lights

[LostButSeeking]

tacosnape does run wastelands, every goblin deck should be running 4, theres no other way.

Yeah, I must have been . . . I don't know, stupid or something when I read his list. I was SURE that it didn't have WL.

[ScatmanX]

Won a champ yesterday.
Report coming tomorrow.

[Endril]

Swords is bad. Try path to exile. But i think you're right, the white splash works best.

I'm sorry, but Path to Exile is horrible in goblins. If you care more about damage than tempo, run zoo.

[kinda]

i run a white splash and main deck 3 STP, and in my sideboard i run 3 disenchants and 2 tempest of lights, plus 2 goblin tinkerers, to take care of enchantments and artifacts.
i know green splashes can also take care of enchantments, but white also gets you swords to plowshares which are so good that i stick with my white splash.
it's because of moats, humility etc, that i just can't run mono red. i know the talk is all about green/black splashes, but white with the 3 cards i named seems a better option to me. stp, disenchants, and tempests of light which have not been seriously discussed on this thread. they may be 3 mana, but are an instant speed tranquility. so what do you guys think?

I t16'd a 100+ person tournament 2-3 months back with the white splash...I really liked the deck then, but with zoo being pretty big right now I don't recommend goblins. As far as the splashes are concerned unless you run into people playing engineered plague/moat (which i did), perish is too good against zoo/new horizons not too run. Side note...I'm also a huge fan of md blood moon...hits so many decks that aren't expecting it so hard...even w/ the white splash. I'd run 2 main.

[Neuad]

What do you guys think of my Rbg Goblins?

// Lands
4 [ROE] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
3 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip


The Jitte is for mirror matchup instead of pyrokenises, haven't tested it at all yet but I think it would work.

[GoboLord]

What do you guys think of my Rbg Goblins?

// Lands
4 [ROE] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
3 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip


The Jitte is for mirror matchup instead of pyrokenises, haven't tested it at all yet but I think it would work.

Jitte is too slow. For mirror you can add Sharphooter
The slit between GY hate cards is just fine.
What are the 2 Thorns for?
Reverent Silence > Krosan Grip, if you dont think so, let me know. Btw 3 should be enough.
Maybe 3 Lightning Bolts or 3 REBs?

[Neuad]

Only thing I like about KGrip over Reverent Silence is Split Second. I'll try out both though.


I'll stick with Pyrokenises SB instead of Jitte, it was just a thought I had.

2 Thorns are some Storm Combo hate, I won against ANT a few weeks ago because of one. I know ANT won't be as big of a deal, but Storm Combo will still be around in some form or another.

So I'll do 2 KGrips or Reverent Silence, and 3 Pyrokenises

[Endril]

I agree with Gobolord, other than the reverent silence. I understand there's some nasty enchantments, but they're just not that common. Being able to destroy just one artifact or enchantment is usually enough, and half the time you can just ignore them anyway. 4 grips and a tin street is excessive, so dropping to 2 is probably a good idea.

You should seriously consider the sharpshooter. The two goblin decks that outplayed me at St Louis ran them, and there were times when I could have used one. It's not just there to kill x/1 creatures; you'll find the extra 1 damage can clear out half your opponent's board when you're attacking and blocking.

Ad Nauseam isn't completely dead, and Belcher is probably going to get played more, so anti-combo isn't a bad call. Maybe even increase your count. In the case of belcher, a 2 drop is too slow. I might recommend discard or chalice for 0. Mindbreak trap may actually be playable now since belcher runs less discard than tendrils.

And perish rocked for me last weekend, so I think any goblin deck with black should run at least 3 in the board.

Pyrokinesis instead of Jitte isn't a bad idea. Lightning bolts are good too.

[GoboLord]

Hey folks,

I wanted to post a list, that I tested on a tourney once.
The main differences to regular goblin-lists:

- 12 Lords
- No Warchief
- only 2 Ringleader
- strange card-choises
- no Wastelands, but Mutavaults

12-Lord-List (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32938)

I want to hear some first impressions and comments on the deck before I start to explain what drove me to play this weird list.

GL

[ScatmanX]

I think you could explain first, but ok...

1st: nice idea. Going to test it.
- Piledriver seems subpar in that list. That looks more like the strategy of merfolk, and there, Waketresherer is bad. Looks like a 1 off would be ok, since we can give him haste, but with 12 pump lords, I dont think he's needed. I'd take them out for +2 Ringleaders and 2 Weirdings.
- Mox Diamond seems bad with only 22 lands.
-Mutavault makes sense in that list.
-Goblins with Vial have no need of Summoning Trap.
- While writing I think that this list could actually be good with Warren Instigator. Try him out. (great with pumpers)
- SB looks completly weird. Please explain.

again: nice idea.

EDIT: wow! forgot Mogg War marchal! he should be nuts here! buying you time, and getting 2 huge guys later. Way better than Piledriver!

[Neuad]

Boartusk Liege also.

[cseraph]

Re the 12 lord list - far too awkward.

Merfolk's 12-16 lord build works because coralhelm and lord of atlantis are 2 cc, giving the deck a reasonable curve. Running extra 3 drops and removing warchief magnifies the existing curve/mana issues goblins has in a traditional build to no particular benefit.

That said, if you want to pursue that path 4 warren instigators seems a must, both for curve and doublestrike synergy.

[GoboLord]

I think you could explain first, but ok...

1st: nice idea. Going to test it.
- Piledriver seems subpar in that list. That looks more like the strategy of merfolk, and there, Waketresherer is bad. Looks like a 1 off would be ok, since we can give him haste, but with 12 pump lords, I dont think he's needed. I'd take them out for +2 Ringleaders and 2 Weirdings.
- Mox Diamond seems bad with only 22 lands.
-Mutavault makes sense in that list.
-Goblins with Vial have no need of Summoning Trap.
- While writing I think that this list could actually be good with Warren Instigator. Try him out. (great with pumpers)
- SB looks completly weird. Please explain.

again: nice idea.

EDIT: wow! forgot Mogg War marchal! he should be nuts here! buying you time, and getting 2 huge guys later. Way better than Piledriver!


I wanted to copy Merfolk, just to try out if their plan works for Goblins, too.
We dont have counters so I play removals insted (which they dont have).
My basic idea was, that almost every Merfolk has a better Goblin-equivalent (considering both manacost and function):

Cursecatcher < Goblin Lackey
Lord of Atlantis > Goblin King
Merrow Reejerey < Goblin Chieftain
Merfolk Souverein = Mad Auntie
Silvergill Adept < Piledriver
Standstill = Wort, Boggart Auntie/ Ringleader
Counter = Removal

As to the sideboard:
I were in a mood to try out sth new. Thats why I added Explosives SB + Mox Diamond MD.
The Trap was funny, but useless most of the time. It hit counters several times but often you just replace Goblin Lackey for Piledriver with it, so no real advantage.
Should have played 4 Chalice, 4 Crypt, but those 4th slots were dedicated to EE as I said.

After all, this list isnt much weaker than a regular Goblin list. Its big advantage ist, that you can even kill with nothing but 2 Lords, and that you aren't afraid of mid-range-creatures like Rhox Warmonk anymore, cause you can securely block when you have Mad Auntie.
Another advantage is the surprise factor, when you have 1 Lord in play, and next turn you get 2 more (cats + Vial pitch). That really IS dangerous.
Stingscourger becomes a better blocker as well, and you can trick your opponent by letting Mutavault activate itself to make Gepalm Incinerator better.


I thought about what you said and this is my new list (without Piledriver and Matron)

//Lands [22]
7 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Auntie's Hovel
1 Swamp
4 Mutavault

//Creatures [27]
4 Lackey
3 Instigator
3 Mogg War Marshall
4 King
4 Chieftain
4 Mad Auntie
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 SGC

//Removal [7]
3 Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
2 Stingscourger

//Spells [4]
4 Aether Vial

SB:
3 Perish
3 REB
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Anarchy
4 Ley-line of the Void


Can anyone think of SB cards that really shine in this list and less in others?

[ScatmanX]

That list looks way more promessing imo. But I'd definitely add 3 Wastelands in place of 3 Mountains, at least.
Don't know about the sb yet. What MU's does this list improves, and which ones get worse?
And I really don't know about Boartusk here, specially if we're sb'ing Perish. But it may not be needed, depending on or MU against Zoo...

[cseraph]

I tested a heavy lord build some today and it actually performed (even) worse than I expected. It was very slow, very clunky, and lost speed and utility for... well, no particular advantage, actually. Stacking many lords in play is a cute concept but doesn't pan out well with them all costing 3, and no warchief cost reduction.

[GoboLord]

That list looks way more promessing imo. But I'd definitely add 3 Wastelands in place of 3 Mountains, at least.
Don't know about the sb yet. What MU's does this list improves, and which ones get worse?
And I really don't know about Boartusk here, specially if we're sb'ing Perish. But it may not be needed, depending on or MU against Zoo...

I didn't test it much. I can give a short report from that tournament, but with 7 rounds and only my memory to rely on ...well, at least the pairings and outcomes are correct:

1st round: Aggro Loam - 2:1 (Goblin King was killer. Blocking + regenerate via Mad Auntie, too).
2nd round: Lands - 2:0 ( he started with Tabernacle in g2, I bet him with double Mutavault)
3nd round: Merfolk - 2:1 (he forgot TWICE that my Mutavaults have islandwalk. They were annoying, like 6/6)
4nd round: Dreadnought/Depths - 1:2 (in g3 I had warren weirding for DD, stingscourger for Dreadnought, but none for the 3rd nought that came 1 turn later)
5th round: MBC - 2:0 ( in g2 he had triple E. Plague, I had 4 Lords)
6th round: Counterbalance+ ??? 2-0 (didnt see his wincondition)
7th round: Rock 2:1 (in g3 I had 1 land under 14 cards, this one got me a 1st turn lackey, who brought 3 lords and 1 SGC)

After all it's a bit lucky, cause I didnt get paired against critical MUs. I never tested against Zoo. Against ANT it used to be like with any other regular Goblins list: wait and see.

As I said: I didnt test it much, but here is what I consider general advantages and disadvantages of this version

+ it can deal with huge creatures better
+ it's comfortable with 2-3 creatures (1-2 of which should be lords).
+ it has virtually more creatures than regular lists (mutavault)
+ it can "trick" your opp by starting: mutavault, vial, go (so he expects counters)
- it doesnt have wasteland
- it can't tutor via matron
- it tends to get into lategame
- it is not as explosive as other lists (it's more predictabvle for opps)

[jin]

@ "red fish" attempt

1. Matron is more comparable to Silvergill since what you are trying to compare is their function and not their casting cost. Since Silvergill nets one card, that is what you want from this slot; hence Matron is more suitable than Piledriver. In this respect, Piledriver is more like Wake Thrasher.

2. Reejerey and Chiefttain cannot be compared since one functions as removal or vial trickery while the other is a haster. Chieftain provides tempo with his haste but that's about as much as it does outside of giving other goblins +1/+1.

3. Fish's strength is that it can Counter Spells.

4. Fish now play 16 lords where as we have 12 and cannot play 4x Boartusk Liege. And let's be honest, they are as good as Sovergn which is pretty bad.

5. Fish is usually mono coloured which means they are less prone to land disruption. When they are splashed, they are not as reliant on their second colour as we would have to be.

Therefore, the Fish-like goblin deck will not work. I think this one done already maybe 100 pages back. I propose a different direction. Instead of being more fish like, we should be more Zoo-like. By Zoo-like, I mean being a more burn oriented deck instead of a lord oriented deck. Goblin's first pick is already really good, why weaken it with Mutavaults and Goblin Kings. Here is a list I've been experimenting on which is a more burn oriented build:

Lands (22):
4x Wasteland
2x Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

Removal (8):
3x Lightning Bolt (very good removal, I hate dilluting with non-goblins but you need this against Zoo in this build)
3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Stingscourger
1x Lightning Crafter (bolt #4; gempalm #4; whatever you want to call it; it does funny things with ringleaders and matrons)

Artifacts (4):
4x AEther Vial

Goblins (26):
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver (usually acts as finisher/removal; very good against combo decks)
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Mogg War Marshal (very good against enemy aggro decks)
2x Seige-gang Commander (makes lackey hits more scary)
1x Skirk Prospector (flex slot)

I have tested this build against enemy aggro decks and its pretty good. The Skirk Prospector/Seige-gangs seem to keep counters off the jittes while the removal takes care of the creatures. Against blue control decks, we are still goblins and rule the world. Against firespout, we are still goblins. Against non-blue control decks the Humilities are annoying but our sheer numbers should manage. The Moats don't hurt as much since we just shoot them in the face. Post board I usually bring in Anarchies vs white control and Price of progress vs decks that run a lot of non-basic. Our combo match ups are still like any other mono red goblins. Maybe it could be better due to the threat of Price of progress/Lightning Bolts main and due to our fast clock with Piledrivers. I'm thinking we could move it to a black splash as well, but as I've tried the black splash and didn't like it, I opt for mono red consistancy and speed.

[JonBarber]

The R/W splash is actually the best version against aggro (swords is better than lighting bolt at killing shit) but regardless, you make valid points against the lord list. We don't have force of will and standstill to sit under. Therefore we need to find other ways of being fast and getting our shit into play. Matron is one of the best cards in the deck, it really needs to be played.

[GoboLord]

The R/W splash is actually the best version against aggro (swords is better than lighting bolt at killing shit) but regardless, you make valid points against the lord list. We don't have force of will and standstill to sit under. Therefore we need to find other ways of being fast and getting our shit into play. Matron is one of the best cards in the deck, it really needs to be played.

What do you think of Nameless Inversion instead of Lightning Bolt (in a Rb list of course)?

Nameless Inversion

Tribal Instant - Shapeshifter, 1B

Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times.)

Target creature gets +3/-3 and loses all creature types until end of turn.

+ it's synergic with Matron/Ringleader
+ it costs B with Warchief
- it doesn't hit players

[jin]

The R/W splash is actually the best version against aggro (swords is better than lighting bolt at killing shit) but regardless, you make valid points against the lord list. We don't have force of will and standstill to sit under. Therefore we need to find other ways of being fast and getting our shit into play. Matron is one of the best cards in the deck, it really needs to be played.

yeah but that requires a splash, and the trade off really isn't worth it. Most big creatures can be gempalmed (3 war marshal + 2 siege gangs) or stung and the little ones eat bolts.. so..... Plus, bolt can finish games where as plow cannot. Again, my list is a burn oriented list so I aim to either remove OR burn face...

although plow would be very nice against Reanimator's sphynx, but I'm not so sure that's a major concern anymore...


What do you think of Nameless Inversion instead of Lightning Bolt (in a Rb list of course)?

Nameless Inversion

Tribal Instant - Shapeshifter, 1B

Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times.)

Target creature gets +3/-3 and loses all creature types until end of turn.

+ it's synergic with Matron/Ringleader
+ it costs B with Warchief
- it doesn't hit players

Sorry, that's horrible. Not only does it cost more than plow/path/bolt, it doesn't really get the job done. The only advantage it has is that creaturse cannot regenerate and weirding does a way better job of that.. Just because it's a goblin doesn't mean we should play it.. (tarfire case in point)

[GoboLord]

Sorry, that's horrible. Not only does it cost more than plow/path/bolt, it doesn't really get the job done. The only advantage it has is that creaturse cannot regenerate and weirding does a way better job of that.. Just because it's a goblin doesn't mean we should play it.. (tarfire case in point)


- with Warchief in play it costs the same as StoP/PtE/Bolt and it DOES get the job done as good as Bolt
- for StoP/PtE you have to splash W (which is tested before and considered worse than splashing B)
- that creatures can't regenerate isn't it's only advantage (as you can see in me last post)
- I don't want to play it instead of Weirding but in addition to it (in SB) so compairing them isn't very helpful
- Tarfire does 2 dmg while Inversion (virtually) does 3

[kinda]

- with Warchief in play it costs the same ad StoP/PtE/Bolt and it DOES get the job done as good as Bolt
- for StoP/PtE you have to splash W (which is tested before and considered worse than splashing B)
- that creatures can't regenerate isn't it's only advantage (as you can see in me last post)
- I don't want to play it instead of Weirding but in addition to it (in SB) so compairing them isn't very helpful
- Tarfire does 2 dmg while Inversion (virtually) does 3

It doesn't kill rox war monk or tarmo...swords ftw...

[GoboLord]

It doesn't kill rox war monk or tarmo...swords ftw...

(stress lies on words in bolts)

Again: I consider it an alternative for LIGHTNING BOLT and maybe as a SB card in a Rb LIST.

2 Anarchy
3 REB
4 Ley-Line
3 Perish
3 Nameless Inversion

So comparing it to PtE/StoP and Weirding doesnt make sense here.

[kinda]

It's still not as good as swords...

[GoboLord]

...which we dont play since testing revealed that Rb are R are the most successful versions. Thanks for your help.

[FoulQ]

...which we dont play since testing revealed that Rb are R are the most successful versions. Thanks for your help.

Metas are always changing and decks are always changing. Over the course of legacy Rw goblins has actually been really damn successful. Don't count out a splash just because Rb and R were the most successful these last couple months. Keep an open mind about this stuff, just like you are asking people to do with the Gob Fish idea (although personally I think it goes against the core philosophies of what makes goblins a good deck).

Actually, white splash looks alright in today's metagame. Anybody seen people play serenity? If all these permanent like decks start popping up (stax, enchantress, etc.) along with already the aggro decks (STP + white has other good anti-aggro tools), the white splash is actually looking MORE attractive than the black.

In fact, I'll go cook up a list and test it out a little now.

[ScatmanX]

I have played Nameless inversion in Rb goblins when it came out.It wasant bad, but there are so many better cards for that slot nowadays.
In the SB you suggested:
2 Anarchy
3 REB
4 Ley-Line
3 Perish
3 Nameless Inversion

Pyroknesis would be way better than Inversion. Bolt would be better also. Inversion is better in some situations? YES. But the versatility Bolt and Knesis provide make them way better.

[GoboLord]

Metas are always changing and decks are always changing. Over the course of legacy Rw goblins has actually been really damn successful. Don't count out a splash just because Rb and R were the most successful these last couple months. Keep an open mind about this stuff, just like you are asking people to do with the Gob Fish idea (although personally I think it goes against the core philosophies of what makes goblins a good deck).

Actually, white splash looks alright in today's metagame. Anybody seen people play serenity? If all these permanent like decks start popping up (stax, enchantress, etc.) along with already the aggro decks (STP + white has other good anti-aggro tools), the white splash is actually looking MORE attractive than the black.

In fact, I'll go cook up a list and test it out a little now.

I played W splash a while ago and had Serenity in SB. It was a good against Staxx, I didnt meet other decks where I could board it. Still, I think we dont need Enchantment/Artifact hate in SB. Anarchy does well against all critical Enchantments + it hits other things as well + its out of Counterbalance's range

[FoulQ]

Anarchy costs 4. Serenity costs 2. They are both narrower and wider in different ways: anarchy can't even hit artifacts. Personally I'd rather have 2cc than 4cc, it makes a big freaking difference especially in legacy. And please do not use the cliche "doesn't get hit by counterbalance" argument, remember when that was rampant on the source? There was even a parody where somebody posted [SCD] Craw Wurm and one of the benefits was "High CC avoids counterbalance."

It's not valid. We don't bring in serenity for most counterbalance decks, and if we do, those decks usually board out counterbalance against goblins.

The metagame is changing and board-based control could reemerge. To judge so quickly is a mistake. Deck construction is much more complex than simply X and Y. It is not black and white for any metagame any of the 75.

I hate to say this but you really don't know what you're talking about.

Yes yes anarchy is pretty popular right now and has its benefits. But we are looking at this WAY too simply.

[GoboLord]

But we DO bring in Anarchy against the most CB decks. I don't want to hit CB (it is as you said not the biggest threat for Goblins). I want Anarchy to hit Progenitus, Rhox War Monk, Quasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary Moat, Humility, Thopter Foundry in those decks.
I agree with you that I don't know much about W splash. I agree with you that Anarchy isnt completly out of CB's range. What I tried to say ( and I must correct myself here) is: It is more likely that CB hits Serenity than Anarchy.
I don't agree with you that most decks board out CB against Goblins (although it's not killer).
Another disadvantage of Serenity is, that it destroys Vials too.
Spell Snare hits Serenity and not Anarchy.
Serenity can be destroyed before your upkeep.
And imo the cc dont matter here because those decks we use Serenity or Anarchy against are slow, so you have enough time to gather 4 or even 5 lands.

Things that Anarchy destroys which Serenity doesn't:
- Baneslayer Angel/Exalted Angel/Magus of the Moat
- Rhox War Monk/Quasali Pridemage
- Knight of the Reliquary
- Mother of Runes/Serra Avenger


Sure, Anarchy doesnt destroy artifact, but I don't consider artifacts a bigger problem than those guys named above.

I hope you feel fine with the way I'm looking at it now that I corrected myself ;-)

[jin]

FoulQ: Wouldn't Serenity screw with our vials?! How is that working out for you? I can only see Serenity played against Stax though. That's pretty narrow.

GoboLord: Bolt is better than nameless inversion in the mirror match. Sorry I always consider the mirror, that's why I had to compare their casting cost without Warchief. Your build will have no solutions to a turn 1 lackey where as mine will have my lightning bolts.. I agree that outside of this, nameless inversion and lightning bolts have the same type of functionality and that they can remove the creatures of the same size. What I am saying is although nameless inversion raises consistancy, you trade that for speed. Speed is what I'm looking for. Lightning Bolt is the fastest and the most versatile.. Plow is the strongest. Nameless inversion is a goblin but ultimately does not give enough power to the deck like Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshare does.

Why are we talking about bringing in Anarchy to fight CBT? CBT isn't even a bad match up. They have a hard time against US. The only time anarchy would even be considered to come in is if they play progenitus but even then we could race them with our piledrivers..

PS: I mentioned Tarfire because it's a bad goblin card, not because I'm comparing it's ability to remove creatures. Also I see the advantages you see from Nameless Inversion. You can get it from Matron and Ringleader. That's why I keep mentioning it's a goblin card. The warchief thing though, that's not really an advantage as Lightning Bolt already has a cmc of 1... I just wanted to clarify that.

[GoboLord]

FoulQ: Wouldn't Serenity screw with our vials?! How is that working out for you? I can only see Serenity played against Stax though. That's pretty narrow.

GoboLord: Bolt is better than nameless inversion in the mirror match. Sorry I always consider the mirror, that's why I had to compare their casting cost without Warchief. Your build will have no solutions to a turn 1 lackey where as mine will have my lightning bolts.. I agree that outside of this, nameless inversion and lightning bolts have the same type of functionality and that they can remove the creatures of the same size. What I am saying is although nameless inversion raises consistancy, you trade that for speed. Speed is what I'm looking for. Lightning Bolt is the fastest and the most versatile.. Plow is the strongest. Nameless inversion is a goblin but ultimately does not give enough power to the deck like Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshare does.

Why are we talking about bringing in Anarchy to fight CBT? CBT isn't even a bad match up. They have a hard time against US. The only time anarchy would even be considered to come in is if they play progenitus but even then we could race them with our piledrivers..

PS: I mentioned Tarfire because it's a bad goblin card, not because I'm comparing it's ability to remove creatures. Also I see the advantages you see from Nameless Inversion. You can get it from Matron and Ringleader. That's why I keep mentioning it's a goblin card. The warchief thing though, that's not really an advantage as Lightning Bolt already has a cmc of 1... I just wanted to clarify that.

I see. We should take time to broaden our explanations a bit so that we dont misunderstand each other. That would make statements like "Inversion is horrible" and "Anarchy is out of CB's range" easier to understand

@ topic:
We (or at least I am) not talking about Anarchy fighting Counterbalance. I bring in Anarchy to fight the threats I just named. Most of those decks I bring in Anarchy against play CB. That's why I mentioned that Anarachy is not likely to be countered by CB. Examples are: NO Bant, Thopther Combo and some U/W-control subtypes.
I agree with you that they have (or should have) hard times against us, but Anarchy is (much like Perish) a boardsweeper for some decks.

[jin]

I see. We should take time to broaden our explanations a bit so that we dont misunderstand each other. That would make statements like "Inversion is horrible" and "Anarchy is out of CB's range" easier to understand

@ topic:
We (or at least I am) not talking about Anarchy fighting Counterbalance. I bring in Anarchy to fight the threats I just named. Most of those decks I bring in Anarchy against play CB. That's why I mentioned that Anarachy is not likely to be countered by CB. Examples are: NO Bant, Thopther Combo and some U/W-control subtypes.
I agree with you that they have (or should have) hard times against us, but Anarchy is (much like Perish) a boardsweeper for some decks.

Yeah, but being red, our goal isn't to sweep the board. All we want to do is dish the damage because that's what red does best. The only reason why anarchy will come in is because soemthing is stopping us from doing damage... ie. Absolute Law, Moat, Worship?... In any other case, we really don't need to bring it in..

Although if your ONLY arguing that 4cmc usually goes over CBT lock, then that's just stating the obvious. But thanks for that.

[GoboLord]

Yeah, but being red, our goal isn't to sweep the board. All we want to do is dish the damage because that's what red does best. The only reason why anarchy will come in is because soemthing is stopping us from doing damage... ie. Absolute Law, Moat, Worship?... In any other case, we really don't need to bring it in..

Although if your ONLY arguing that 4cmc usually goes over CBT lock, then that's just stating the obvious. But thanks for that.

I really hate to post things twice because it only makes the thread bigger and more boring to read:

I'm not ONLY saying that Anarchy goes over CBT lock. As I said before, I play it to hit those guys as well:

- Baneslayer Angel/Exalted Angel/Magus of the Moat
- Rhox War Monk/Quasali Pridemage
- Knight of the Reliquary
- Mother of Runes/Serra Avenger

They (much like Moat and Humility) stop us from doing damage.
Sweeping the board helps us doing damage.
That's why we play Perish. Thats why we play Anarchy. That's why we play (mass)removal in general.

I dont know if it obvious enough now, but what I said was (and the stress is on the 2 things standing apart from each other):

#1
"Anarchy seems better than Serenity, because it hits (along with nasty Entchantments like Humility and Moat) creatures like [fill in what I wrote above]. That make Anarchy more flexible to me.

#2
Anarchy is less likely to be affected by CBT than Serenity cause of it's mana costs. This fact matters because some decks that I would bring in Anarchy or Serenity against, have CBT lock. I dont want to fight CBT with those cards.

Anyways, lets leave this discussion at this point until FoulQ finished his testing. Maybe he can tell us something about Serenity's pros and cons.

[cseraph]

I'm going to have to chime in with Gobo strongly supporting Anarchy as a useful tool for goblins. The core engine of goblins - lackey/warchiefs/ringleaders/matrons/SCG - works extremely well at doing what it does, even if you have some slightly awkward non-goblin cards like anarchy around. What a card like anarchy, perish etc does is provide a lot more depth in situations where "doing what goblins does" just isn't cutting it, of which there are many in today's meta, which is why we're no longer the top deck.

If you play online you'll see a lot of D&T, and Anarchy is very useful there, and is one of the only ways of not being blown out by sofi besides artifact removal.

The one thing Anarchy won't do for you is come in against E-plagues. There's still a lot of them out there, and two of them are still usually game, unless you main deck a boartusk.

[Neuad]

How would Patriarch's Bidding do against say zoo? Sorry don't know card tags.

Put one MB, and 2 in the SB. Sure it's a bit pricey, but zoo doesn't use any land destruction anyway. Just use every goblin humanly possible, even stingscourger and gempalm as chump blockers while you build up your mana base. Then drop patriarch's Bidding. They name what, Goyf or cats and get 3-4 back? You name goblin and get half the city back and alpha strike in for the win.

3BB
Each player chooses a creature type. Each player returns all creature cards of a type chosen this way from his or her graveyard to the battlefield.

[Hanni]

All you do is put these tags, and [/cards ], around the card name, except without the spaces.

So it would be like, [cards ] Patriarch's Bidding [/cards ], except without the spaces. [cards]Patriarch's Bidding.

[Neuad]

Alright I was doing card and it was failing, didn't think to try plural.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ROE] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [U] Taiga
1 [RAV] Forest (2)

// Creatures
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
1 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding


theres the list I'm thinking of running if I go with Patriarch's Bidding.

[lotriderm]

@ Gobolord

I totally agree with your #1 point regarding Anarchy. But personally,I prefer Anarchy more because it is on colour as well.

[Hanni]

Patriarch's Bidding seems good in theory, but I'm skeptical that it will work.

At 5cc, it's going to be very rare that you can actually cast it before it's irrelevant. Lackey doesn't cheat it into play and Warchief doesn't reduce the cost. It cannot be Vial'd into play, either.

Against Zoo, you will likely be dead before you hit 5 land drops. If you are capable of getting to 5 land drops against Zoo and you are still alive, Ringleader will more than likely put you far enough ahead to out-resource and out-advantage them.

Against control, I can see it being good the first time as a surprise factor, but after that, they should be able to keep you from resolving a 5cc bomb.

I've never playtested it though, that's just me theorizing it. If you've playtested it and had good results, I can admit I'm wrong. If anything, I'd cut the 1 maindeck Bidding, and maybe put it in the sideboard (or not if your sideboard is super tight).

[Lejay]

Bidding will be game winning in the late game and completely dead before that. One way to avoid its drawback is to play it sideboard with 3-4 burning wish in the main.

[markbris]

How would Patriarch's Bidding do against say zoo? Sorry don't know card tags.

Put one MB, and 2 in the SB. Sure it's a bit pricey, but zoo doesn't use any land destruction anyway. Just use every goblin humanly possible, even stingscourger and gempalm as chump blockers while you build up your mana base. Then drop patriarch's Bidding. They name what, Goyf or cats and get 3-4 back? You name goblin and get half the city back and alpha strike in for the win.

3BB
Each player chooses a creature type. Each player returns all creature cards of a type chosen this way from his or her graveyard to the battlefield.

It wouldn't do well at all, if you make it deep enough into the game to play bidding then you are probably winning or close to it already. Most of the time its gonna sit in your hand while they beat your face in the early turns.

[GreenOne]

I'm actually testing it in the SB for the control matchup (landstill and the like), where it ends the game in a single shot if not countered, and it's surely better than sorcery speed creature removal.

[jin]

@ Anarchy

I'm not saying Anarchy is bad. I'm just saying you guys seem to rely on it too much against the blue match up which I find to be in our favour. I side in anarchy against Quinn, Enchantress, Landstill all of the time...

But if you are comparing Serenity versus Anarchy, I'm already on the side of Anarchy since Serenity hits my vial and I don't like that..

@ Patriarch Bidding

I think Mogg War Marshal is enough against zoo. If you play this, they can name cats and bring in the nacatl/lynx/pridemage all back.. which is quite annoying..

[TossUsToLions]

I am building Rb gobbos with a taiga for k grips in the sb. Should i be running rishadan ports? It seems like a lot of Rb and Rbg goblin decks aren't running any anymore. Is there a reason for this?

[overpowered]

Test living death instead. Block early and living death later. It's Bidding that clears their board, and opens the potential for an alpha strike. Any stingscourgers you decided not to pay for earlier can also bounce whatever threats they DO get back.

Bidding < Living Death in my opinion.

I'd like to clarify that I'm not advocating the use of either card in goblins, but I just want to discuss the advantages of each.

[jrw1985]

Can I get some feedback on sideboard options? Specifically, does anyone else play Leyline of the Void and and Leyline of Sanctity?

I think Leyline of the Void is great, because it's a card I've always wanted to mull into in dredge/lands/reanimator/ and makes them have to have an answer to it. It also forces thopterfoundry/sword, survival, and new horizons to play around it. It can't be countered when you start the game with it in play, and once it's in play it cannot be Stifled. That's a big plus over Crypt and Relic.


Leyine of Sanctity
I know some people are against using this SB as it would be "splashing white", but I don't think it really matters since you intend on mulling into it anyway against Belcher/ANT/Combo. It's going to be more effective and faster than discard or counter (which you would also have to mull to anyway), your opponent can't make you discard it (a la Mindbreak Trap) and it's sooo much faster than Pyrostatic Pillar or Thorn of Amethyst, but less susceptible to counter/discard. If you draw dead into it late-game it doesn't matter that much because, well, are any other anti-combo options worth playing once you've gotten past turn 2?

[jrw1985]

I am building Rb gobbos with a taiga for k grips in the sb. Should i be running rishadan ports? It seems like a lot of Rb and Rbg goblin decks aren't running any anymore. Is there a reason for this?

2 Taiga's for KG has worked awesomely for me in the past. Also, I to be tricky I avoid playing them game one. It surprises plenty of people when you have removal for that [CARD]Propaganda[CARD] or [CARD]Moat[CARD] they sided in game 2.

[GoboLord]

@ TossUs:
I play Leyline of the Void too and I made the same experiences: It's simply awsome. It also has a surprise factor, since Reanimator and Dredge used to bring in Null Rod, Pithing Needle and Artifact removal expecting Crypt/Relic.
I wouldnt play the new Leyline. IMO its only effective against storm-combo: ANT and Belcher.
Right now ANT seems to transmute to NextLevelIggy which uses IggyLoop. Against this deck Ley-Line of the Void is killer enough, so you dont need the white one.
This fact leaves Belcher as only deck to bring in the white Leyline against.
I'd rather use those 4 slots for something that's more flexible than Leyline of Sanctity (like REB).

@ jrw1985:
As far as I know Rishadan Port is playable only in Mono R lists. If you splash B, G or even Bg and still have Ports you are too vulnarable to Wastelands. Plus: 7-8 colorless Lands in deck can bing you into trouble with manafixing.
Well that's at least why I dont play them.

[FoulQ]

I played leylines for a while in goblins. Then I stopped, for a pretty simple reason.

The deck already needs to mull very aggressively (imo) to consistently win. Leyline makes you have to mull more. Some goblin hands are painfully mediocre and would lose to standard decks, but those hands can have leylines. The choice becomes: do I keep really bad hands with leyline, or do I mull a crazy amount more? Both options sound bad to me, and the extra benefit from leyline isn't worth it for me compared to traditional grave hate like crypt and relic, which can usually get the job done and which you can still flexibly mull for.

[daPaule]

(1.)@ TossUs:
[...]since Reanimator and Dredge used to bring in Null Rod, Pithing Needle and Artifact removal expecting Crypt/Relic.
[...]
I'd rather use those 4 slots for something that's more flexible than Leyline of Sanctity (like REB).

(2.)@ jrw1985:
a)
As far as I know Rishadan Port is playable only in Mono R lists. If you splash B, G or even Bg and still have Ports you are too vulnarable to Wastelands.
b)
Plus: 7-8 colorless Lands in deck can bing you into trouble with manafixing.
Well that's at least why I dont play them.

Overall i have to agree:
1.) I've never seen Null Rod played vs artifact hate. Whereas it makes sense esp. vs goblins and folks thanks to vial and i considered it myself while playing Ichorid, as an ichorid player it would be just suboptimal to play it.
Chain of vapor and Nature's Claim get rid of all form of hate (yeah Jailer vs claim is obv.) while being castable on the first turn(s) and getting a discard outlet. The problem here is probably that noone is willing to discard the rod for breakthrough and stuff like that, therefore I would slow myself down by waiting to drop my anti-hate card.(mostly true for ichorid, not reanimator)

So artifact or enchantment doesn't really matter.

I have to confess that, lucky as i might be, i just faced reanimator like 3 times (standing like 6-3 vs it).
Anyhow i never boarded ANY GY hate.
Their only true outs seem to be sphinx (they will pull ahead easily after it) and Archon.
Don't be afraid of Iona! You have ways to get rid of her, yes she will win a game or two for them ( i've managed to handle her more often than getting beat by her) but overall you have 3 turns to find a solution.

The reanimator player expects us to board in GY hate boarding in his 2nd Show&Tell.

See above lines regarding the creatures: i board REB and Anarchy instead to their expectations.
Anarchy gets rid of all creatures that matter, REB makes sure that ours will deliver and/or our hate comes through.

So, yes, i only bring in GY hate vs ichorid and lands (+blood moon).

2.)
a) this mainly depends on how many you are playing. I would go with 2 ports if i had them, this leads to
b) main point why i still haven't bought them :laugh:


I played leylines for a while in goblins.[...]

The deck already needs to mull very aggressively (imo) to consistently win. Leyline makes you have to mull more.[...]

True, the mulligan decisions are my only real problem with the leylines. But as said before: i only bring in leylines vs lands and ichorid and from my point of view these are the decks where they are better than the artifacts and worth mulling into.

Vs thresh or "variations" (counting New Horizons as such) I would love to have relics, but you can beat those decks w/o GY hate. Here i simply prefer perish instead of the hate and REBs ofc.

My SB as reference:
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Nature's Ruin
SB: 2 Anarchy
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis

I'm not talking about that anyone should just grab it, but i've been quite pleased with it.
One Earwig is main, but he's not there to fight combo, that's a bonus, i mostly use it to get rid of progenitus preboard and my most preffered card to pick: Jitte. I scrapped the combo matchup, while some cards are still useful, nothing is really there to fight combo.
Esp the board sweeper count is really high with 3 perish and 2 anarchy but there is no matchup where i bring in all 5, most of the time there is something different being simply better while not lowering your goblin count that much.

And also my meta shifts between weeks like nothing else, so this is basicly vs random, although i've not seen ichorid in high numbers anymore. So maybe i'll drop some of the hate.

Greetings, i hope noone feels offended :wink:

[Neuad]

Had to share this.

Warchief, Matron #1, Piledriver #1 in play.

Played Matron for Waste and Badlands to get Stingsourger

Taiga to play Stingscourger, bouncing his 8/8 Terravore.

Taiga to play Piledriver #2.

Full attack and the chat on the side takes place.

Roflz.

http://i28.tinypic.com/15of59h.jpg

[jrw1985]

True, the mulligan decisions are my only real problem with the leylines. But as said before: i only bring in leylines vs lands and ichorid and from my point of view these are the decks where they are better than the artifacts and worth mulling into.

Vs thresh or "variations" (counting New Horizons as such) I would love to have relics, but you can beat those decks w/o GY hate. Here i simply prefer perish instead of the hate and REBs ofc.

My SB as reference:
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Nature's Ruin
SB: 2 Anarchy
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis

I'm not talking about that anyone should just grab it, but i've been quite pleased with it.
One Earwig is main, but he's not there to fight combo, that's a bonus, i mostly use it to get rid of progenitus preboard and my most preffered card to pick: Jitte. I scrapped the combo matchup, while some cards are still useful, nothing is really there to fight combo.
Esp the board sweeper count is really high with 3 perish and 2 anarchy but there is no matchup where i bring in all 5, most of the time there is something different being simply better while not lowering your goblin count that much.


I thought I'd chime in with my 2 cents on the SB. Here's what I'm running---


My SB as reference:
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity (They're on preorder)
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Anarchy
SB: 2 Krosan Grip (I'm running 2 Taiga maindeck)
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis

Here's my thinking on SB card choice--
Leyline of the Void is awesome. Mulling to it is worth it because it slows your opponent down until they find an answer or work around it.

Leyline of Sanctity looks awesome. I don't have white mana sources in the deck, but I figure it's still the best possible pick against combo. Mindbreak Trap was too vulnerable to discard, and discard was too slow for a 1st turn Belcher game 3. I realize DePaul basically concedes that combo isn't his game, but I think sideboards should exist to help you win the match-ups your main deck is not supposed to. I'd take these over REB any day. We'll see how they play out once they arrive.

Perish for Tarmagoyf.

Anarchy for, yah know, stuff. It's great against enchantress, rhox war monk, Moat, often Zoo... so why not?

K Grip 'cause I splashed Green. Duh. People just don't see it coming when you avoid the Taigas game one.

Shattering Spree helps against those guys that feel a need to play all the artifacts.

Pyrokinesis is there to replace a Weirding in the Mirror.

I realize my SB is weak againt Merfolk, but I've never worried about that match-up as removal and draw on my side greatly outweighs the control and pump on their's. Absconding from REB means I'm more susceptible to countermagic, but I've never been too worried about that anyway. If my one drop gets Dazed or FoWed I'm still winning in the mana denial and card advantage game.

But, I'm rambling...

ONE MORE THING-
Why the hell does everyone play Blood Moon? It's practically worthless against anything but 43 Lands. It's slow, and game 2 everyone starts playing around your Wastelands by fetching basics before you can even get your Blood Moon in play! I don't get why anyone plays it in SB.

[jin]

@ jrw1985 and daPaule

how is 1x pyrokinesis working for you guys? It's weird.. but interesting..
if it's for the mirror.. what else do you guys bring in? I tried RB Goblins, but it was really bad in the mirror...
Maybe because I liked weirding a little too much..

[daPaule]

@ jrw1985 and daPaule

how is 1x pyrokinesis working for you guys? It's weird.. but interesting..
if it's for the mirror.. what else do you guys bring in? I tried RB Goblins, but it was really bad in the mirror...
Maybe because I liked weirding a little too much..

I bring it in for the mirror and Merfolk. Last time i still played 2 Kinesis & just one Anarchy.
Kinesis is so so. As said my meta shifts alot and also the numbers are varying from 9 - 45 (yes it really is weekly legacy :)).

Last time Blood Moon and Leyline were completely dead while playing vs NO surv Elves (perish & kinesis here kinesis won me game 3), Deadguy (nothing really, duh but tried kinesis cause of confi), Dreadstill (REBs) and Solidarity (REBs).

Sometimes I simply can't decide whether i should bring in blood moon or perish. If playing vs supreme blue (or other 3c+ decks with goyfs and rhox) you could use both, while you don't really want to change the MD at all :( While blood moon slows them down IF it hits, they mostly still have firespout so you are forced to play a steady game and not overextend that much.
So normally i go the perish & REB route.
By now i know who might bring lands and scout better before a tournament so freeing up the 2 slots from blood moon.

Also i want to try out a sharpshooter, either main or SB cause elves are on a rise right now.

Considering the white leyline vs combo: what does it do to stop him comboing ?
After he used nauseam, meditates, glimpse... he just might draw into bounce, or his chances to tutor for it afterwards are alot better. You might have the suprise factor g2, they might just expect artifact hate. But as you can see in almost every combo deck thread: flexibility is what they are looking for in the board and bounce is almost better than plain artifact hate, so u might still get the "splash damage". Though you might get a turn out of it which nets you the same what a thorn does, while not slowing you down by paying for it and it's faster.

Last time i played vs soli i mulled all 3 games, 6,5 and 4 cards i think. While never having a REB or a fast start anyway (or lands..). So this was just the deck fucking with me. If i'd hit a leyline at this stupid hands at least, yeah it would have been ok.

Anyhow after turn1 you have 3 dead cards in your deck :(

greetings

[jin]

I bring it in for the mirror and Merfolk. Last time i still played 2 Kinesis & just one Anarchy.
Kinesis is so so. As said my meta shifts alot and also the numbers are varying from 9 - 45 (yes it really is weekly legacy :)).

Last time Blood Moon and Leyline were completely dead while playing vs NO surv Elves (perish & kinesis here kinesis won me game 3), Deadguy (nothing really, duh but tried kinesis cause of confi), Dreadstill (REBs) and Solidarity (REBs).

Sometimes I simply can't decide whether i should bring in blood moon or perish. If playing vs supreme blue (or other 3c+ decks with goyfs and rhox) you could use both, while you don't really want to change the MD at all :( While blood moon slows them down IF it hits, they mostly still have firespout so you are forced to play a steady game and not overextend that much.
So normally i go the perish & REB route.
By now i know who might bring lands and scout better before a tournament so freeing up the 2 slots from blood moon.

Also i want to try out a sharpshooter, either main or SB cause elves are on a rise right now.

Considering the white leyline vs combo: what does it do to stop him comboing ?
After he used nauseam, meditates, glimpse... he just might draw into bounce, or his chances to tutor for it afterwards are alot better. You might have the suprise factor g2, they might just expect artifact hate. But as you can see in almost every combo deck thread: flexibility is what they are looking for in the board and bounce is almost better than plain artifact hate, so u might still get the "splash damage". Though you might get a turn out of it which nets you the same what a thorn does, while not slowing you down by paying for it and it's faster.

Last time i played vs soli i mulled all 3 games, 6,5 and 4 cards i think. While never having a REB or a fast start anyway (or lands..). So this was just the deck fucking with me. If i'd hit a leyline at this stupid hands at least, yeah it would have been ok.

Anyhow after turn1 you have 3 dead cards in your deck :(

greetings

What I meant was what else besides pyrokinesis do you bring in against the mirror..
and also how often did you draw it if you only had 1-of...

I wouldn't expect to need to bring in anything against the folk..
but some people like to add icing to the cake..

[JonBarber]

I bring it in for the mirror and Merfolk. Last time i still played 2 Kinesis & just one Anarchy.
Kinesis is so so. As said my meta shifts alot and also the numbers are varying from 9 - 45 (yes it really is weekly legacy :)).

Last time Blood Moon and Leyline were completely dead while playing vs NO surv Elves (perish & kinesis here kinesis won me game 3), Deadguy (nothing really, duh but tried kinesis cause of confi), Dreadstill (REBs) and Solidarity (REBs).

Sometimes I simply can't decide whether i should bring in blood moon or perish. If playing vs supreme blue (or other 3c+ decks with goyfs and rhox) you could use both, while you don't really want to change the MD at all :( While blood moon slows them down IF it hits, they mostly still have firespout so you are forced to play a steady game and not overextend that much.
So normally i go the perish & REB route.
By now i know who might bring lands and scout better before a tournament so freeing up the 2 slots from blood moon.

Also i want to try out a sharpshooter, either main or SB cause elves are on a rise right now.

Considering the white leyline vs combo: what does it do to stop him comboing ?
After he used nauseam, meditates, glimpse... he just might draw into bounce, or his chances to tutor for it afterwards are alot better. You might have the suprise factor g2, they might just expect artifact hate. But as you can see in almost every combo deck thread: flexibility is what they are looking for in the board and bounce is almost better than plain artifact hate, so u might still get the "splash damage". Though you might get a turn out of it which nets you the same what a thorn does, while not slowing you down by paying for it and it's faster.

Last time i played vs soli i mulled all 3 games, 6,5 and 4 cards i think. While never having a REB or a fast start anyway (or lands..). So this was just the deck fucking with me. If i'd hit a leyline at this stupid hands at least, yeah it would have been ok.

Anyhow after turn1 you have 3 dead cards in your deck :(

greetings

Combo prepares for the possibilty of you playing pillar as well, so bounce will be brought in (along with any artifact specific hate). It doesn't stop them from comboing, and therefore doesn't really give you another turn. Chalice actually does give you time, and does stop them from comboing.

Against the mirror, your chances have less to do with what you sb but more of what you maindeck. Having more incinerators gives you a better matchup. You could play that Goblin that gives all of them +3/+0 until end of turn and then kills them to increase your chances in the mirror. Other than that, it comes down to die roll, draws, and playing ability.

[jin]

Combo prepares for the possibilty of you playing pillar as well, so bounce will be brought in (along with any artifact specific hate). It doesn't stop them from comboing, and therefore doesn't really give you another turn. Chalice actually does give you time, and does stop them from comboing.

Against the mirror, your chances have less to do with what you sb but more of what you maindeck. Having more incinerators gives you a better matchup. You could play that Goblin that gives all of them +3/+0 until end of turn and then kills them to increase your chances in the mirror. Other than that, it comes down to die roll, draws, and playing ability.

Pyromancer? Yeah I do play him. He's pretty awesome even not in the mirror. I side him in randomly. It's true though, it is what you main deck and not what you sideboard. Back when I was the only one left playing Mogg Fanatics, it reminded me how much I missed them since they were so good in the mirror. Apparenly goblins can't really answer first turn lackey either..

[markbris]

Apparenly goblins can't really answer first turn lackey either..

Lightning Bolt is pretty sweet for this too, since usually goblins doesn't have a play that can stop a first turn lackey if they have incinerator.

[yadda]

Lightning Bolt is pretty sweet for this too, since usually goblins doesn't have a play that can stop a first turn lackey if they have incinerator.

I really have to chime in here and point out that lightning bolt is just awful in goblins. There is no reason to ever dilute the deck with non-goblins. If your making consesions to playing against the mirror you are doing it wrong unless you can reasonably expect to play against goblins at least twice per tournament in your meta. The added consistancy which come from playing all goblins is far superior to whatever minor utility you get from playing lightning bolt.

As far as zoo goes if you want to beat zoo upping your weirding count and playing all four incinerators is the way to go. One of the main keys is to avoid trying to outrace them since they have burn and instead maximizing your card advantage since we have way more than they do. If played properly goblins can actually be the control in this matchup.

[jin]

Lightning Bolt is pretty sweet for this too, since usually goblins doesn't have a play that can stop a first turn lackey if they have incinerator.

Yes, I know. You can check out my list 2 or 3 pages back. I wouldn't say bolt is THE solution, but it is A solution. I wouldn't play bolt for that reason though. I play it because it is good removal and it has good reach to finish games.


I really have to chime in here and point out that lightning bolt is just awful in goblins. There is no reason to ever dilute the deck with non-goblins. If your making consesions to playing against the mirror you are doing it wrong unless you can reasonably expect to play against goblins at least twice per tournament in your meta. The added consistancy which come from playing all goblins is far superior to whatever minor utility you get from playing lightning bolt.

As far as zoo goes if you want to beat zoo upping your weirding count and playing all four incinerators is the way to go. One of the main keys is to avoid trying to outrace them since they have burn and instead maximizing your card advantage since we have way more than they do. If played properly goblins can actually be the control in this matchup.

Goblin HAS to play the control aspect to win. I don't think it is a question. At first I thought Lightning Bolt would be awful too, but after some more testing, I really wouldn't call it diluting the deck. Goblins used to play up to 24 lands. I'm sure adding in 3 non goblin cards while cutting 2 lands wouldn't hurt the deck that much. As I stated earlier, I have tried a more burn oriented build. You can check out my list a few pages back. It's not too bad, you should try it out. It's pretty bad-ass to win through game 1 Moat and still be able to fight Zoo and Goblins. Now all I have to do is learn to beat combo.. LOL

[pater]

I really have to chime in here and point out that lightning bolt is just awful in goblins. There is no reason to ever dilute the deck with non-goblins. If your making consesions to playing against the mirror you are doing it wrong unless you can reasonably expect to play against goblins at least twice per tournament in your meta. The added consistancy which come from playing all goblins is far superior to whatever minor utility you get from playing lightning bolt.

As far as zoo goes if you want to beat zoo upping your weirding count and playing all four incinerators is the way to go. One of the main keys is to avoid trying to outrace them since they have burn and instead maximizing your card advantage since we have way more than they do. If played properly goblins can actually be the control in this matchup.

I've been having the argument with myself for the last few weeks about Lightning Bolt. I've been trying to fix the number of removal spots to 7-8 and figure out how to fill them with Goblin-based removal. Currently I'm set with...
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Warren Weirding
2 Gempalm Incinerator

My reasoning for Bolt is simple, any opening hand with Lackey and Bolt brightens my hope for the game. Opening hand Bolt is 90% of the reason I run it, because I fully understand the pain of Ringleadering over one and the rarity of naturally drawing (or Gempalming into) one. Warren Weirding is the second best removal card for Goblins IMO, and it's also nifty when someone drops Iona on red and you just Weirding it. If I wasn't running Bolt, Weirding would easily become a 4-of, and yes, I have tested Stingscourger and Tarfire.

The bottom line is, I don't run Bolt to help the Zoo matchup, it just helps. It is there to help enable Lackey/Instigator. Every removal spell in Goblins should be there above-all to enable Lackey. Gempalm seems like the only exception, but only because of how monstrous it can be turn 3/4/later.

I do agree with you about the control aspect of playing against Zoo, but Bolt is definitely not "awful" in Goblins and Bolting a Kird Ape is not a "minor utility".

[Antknee42]

From my tournament report thread on this site (go read it!)



Lightning Bolt doesn't go into your hand when you cast Ringleader/Matron. The more non-goblin cards you add to the deck, the weaker the synergy becomes and the weaker your inevitability is. I think this is a mistake that a lot of Goblin players make; adding cards that seem like they help, and wind up diluting the entire deck so that is in fact weaker.

Gempalm, on the other hand, is just a great card in the deck. So much so that I added another before STL. It isn't as good as it used to be, because now we have all these 3 toughness creatures for 1 mana, but that doesn't make it cuttable my any means, IMO. I have won games and matches because of the removal as well as the cycling ability by itself. It is all about synergy, and Gempalm has that in spades. Being able to tutor up a cycling removal spell is a great feeling.

Also, I wouldn't play the deck without Rishadan Port. The card is really really good at one of goblins' main paths of attack: mana disruption.

I also completely disagree with the previous posted about removal being all about enabling Lackey. I often think of connecting with Lackey as a bonus, not a needed thing in order for the deck to work. I think the THREAT of connecting with Lackey is often enough to change the way other people play in your favor. While Goblins can come out of the gate super-fast, most games rarely let you just swing away unimpeded; you are in it for the mid-game in which you have a synergistic card advantage engine unlike any other deck in the format. To run the deck as a purely aggressive deck is limiting the amount of games you can win, IMO. Also, I have just been very unimpressed with Instigator (as I mentioned in my report); it just doesn't do enough on its own vs. decks that play cards that affect your permanents.

-AA

[TheSleeper]

Can anyone comment on my list? As should be obvious, its tweaked to be better against Aggro. My meta has other Goblins, Zoo, DnT, Mono-Black, Bant, all kinds of aggro.

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
18 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Based on meta information, should I be including Port? I do own a playset. If so, how many? I was thinking -1 Mountain, -1 Stingscourger, +2 Port - is this optimal? In testing I have found that while not very aggressive, War Marshal really helps in chumping early on before you just overrun them with your card advantage. I would love to run Weirding etc but have no access to those dual/fetches atm.

[FoulQ]

@ TheSleeper, here is what I think, whether you like my thoughts or not is up to you of course.

4 Stingscourger? That freaks me out a little bit. I actually think he is best against aggro-control decks more than aggro, decks that rely on fatties to win: Aggro Loam, Countertop, etc. They rely on their creatures for defense and stingscourger is great at catching them with their pants down, thinking that goyf wall will delay the game. Stingy shows up and BAM you are now at the top table. Still, for any meta I wouldn't play 4, 3 is the max for me. You usually only want one a game. Gempalm is great with the "swarm" variant of goblins (mogg war marshal + chieftain mini-combo that goes well with piledriver/SGC/gempalm). I'd go up to 4, and possibly 4 MWM to be honest. And possibly another goblin chieftain.

That being said, Mono-Black/DNT/Goblins!? Is it time for the reappearance of...mogg fanatic!?

I'd put 2 more chieftain in your sideboard for the mirror (with about even hands he wins the game) as well as 4 pyrokinesis.

Now, I know people have a curiously bisexual relationship with their piledrivers, but your meta sounds like aggro heaven and piledriver could be reduced to make room for other cards for your meta. But only one, I'd say, you always want 3 piledrivers in the deck most games, even post SB I'd say.

And lightning bolt looks pretty nice for that meta. But it requires some getting used to.

If you handed me that deck and I had a tournament in an hour at your meta, here's what I would do:
-1 Piledriver
-1 Stingscourger
+1 Gempalm
+1 MWM

You don't need black to be good in an aggro meta. In fact I prefer MonoR or RW, and in fact specifically for your meta RG (tsh...kills vial/jitte. plus kgrip against the control decks built to counter the aggro meta, and maybe compost to laugh at the silly mono-black masochistic goths) with what you described. Weirding isn't very good against zoo, I don't know what people are smoking, but pass it to me please. Stingscourger is awesome because it leaves a body you can throw into zoo just like MWM. But you know that. With 7 between scourger/MWM you are maximizing out this strategy and focusing your deck which is nice.

Overall your list looks pretty hawt. You don't really need port, and I wouldn't go up to 23 land for it. Not worth the dead draws when you need business fast against all the aggro decks. -2 mountain, +2 port maybe. I played with 2 ports for a long time and liked it before I started playing instigator (still do think he's awesome). The only way you'll know if you like it is if you try it in a tournament, everyone seems to have a different perspective on ports. Port might be getting better post-Columbus, if the meta shifts to make control viable again like some people are saying. I'd like to point out that old-school landstill simply didn't lose to portless goblin lists. Getting people off UU for Jace or R for firespout or B for plague, etc, well, it's gonna be very important if the meta goes where the obvious predictions lead.

Bring in pyrokinesis against zoo PLEASE don't listen to the naysayers. It's not as good as perish, but your list makes up for the lack of perish with 4/3 sting/MWM. It IS the second best sb tool against zoo behind perish.

The SB I'd scrap together before the event started would be something like this (keeping in mind my personal md changes),
4 Pyrokinesis (hard to argue against this?)
2 Goblin Chieftain (plague's coming back....I called it here first...also helps in non-goyf aggro matchups a ton of course)
1 Goblin Piledriver (come in against bant, possibly mono-black depending, also any control decks built to counter the aggro meta)
4 GY Hate (can't go wrong with this imo)
1 Goblin Pyromancer (mirror, also against control decks and decks like burn where you have dead removal MD)
3 Pithing Needle (pretty good, especially if people predict the aggro meta and bring control decks with deeds and the like)

The main problem with the decklist? No answer to jitte. I've tried everything in MonoR: pithing needle, my own jittes, tinkerer, goddamn goblin freaking VANDAL, but they all suck. The best answer is usually pyrokinesis in MonoR. But that often isn't good enough. If you do lose to jitte, you will have to deal with your wily opponent going over to his friends saying, "I don't get some people, why do they play goblins when it singlehandedly loses to jitte," well go tell that dumbass DnT or mono-black player (playing his deck from like what 2005) that HE WOULD LOSE TO JITTE AS WELL. Tell him, NEWS FLASH, aggro decks lose to jitte all the time.

....ETA: So then comes the larger big picture question. "If I can splash, what is the best way to handle jitte?" People will usually say to just splash red-black blah blah but NO. Tin Street Hooligan is NUTS in aggro metas.

1. Effective answer to jitte. And tinkerer IS NOT.
2. Effective answer to vial. Great tempo swing, especially because your opponent was probably relying on that vial.
3. People don't usually see it coming (people are dumb and play mono-black still remember)
4. Effective answer to generic artifacts that control decks pack to stop aggro decks
5. Usually there is a target that isn't meaningless, even if your opponent has no jitte/vial/etc.
4. The art is awesome, the quote is surprisingly funny, and he's a hooligan just like me. I can relate to his antics.

And now, I'm about to admit something. Just don't laugh at me. My personal pet peeve probably in all of magic is when people slyly point out, "I don't like how warchief and TSH interact." They think they caught some grand error in my thinking. What's funny about this is that when people say that, they make it clear that they have never tested TSH. If you have a warchief in play, you usually don't need TSH. I playtested a kajillion cames with RG over the course of a couple months and the interaction was soul-crushing like three times. So for one more time I will say, TSH + WARCHIEF IS NOT A PROBLEM.

I know the RG splash isn't that popular on the forums, but for the right meta like yours I highly recommend it.

[TheSleeper]

Wow FoulQ.. that was an epic response, more than I could have hoped for - thanks!! It definitely is an aggro feast at the moment in my area atm. The SB guide was great too, because right now I just have Kinesis, Anarchy, Blood Moon and Thorn -> probably not ideal for what I'm facing.

[jin]

@ FoulQ

Informative post. It was really detailed. I'd like to try TSH too, but I can't afford Taigas right now. Tuktuk Scrapper doesn't even compare.

With the mono-red list though, I'd have to agree that simply keeping your opponents off creatures is enough to win through jitte. I hven't played with pyrokinesis in awhile so I don't know how well that works, but I average about 8-9 removal with every Goblin deck I make so I never felt like I needed Pyrokinesis. What good is a jitte if there isn't anyone to weild it right?

One thing I'd like to point out though: Related to the black splash, I don't think it is the weirding that people like but the parish.

I also have to disagree with your readiness to drop port. Like daze, port has the ability to buy a turn or two and that is important if you plan on racing someone that kept a questionable and/or hateful hand. Just something I'd like to remind you all when your Monoblack playing oppoent is all ready to drop plague on your third turn now has to drop it turn 4. And goblins CAN kill turn 4..

[TheSleeper]

Can Goblins kill on turn 4 if you spent turn 3 porting them tho? Regardless I don't believe Port would be strongest against a mono-coloured deck like MBC (they might run Ritual regardless). I see it more against something like Zoo/Loam/Bant where in addition to Wastelands, you can keep them off a colour for awhile and slow their development.

[FoulQ]

Yeah a lot of the lists posted on here I don't agree with so I just ignore them. But yours I liked more and I was high so hell, why not respond. Plus you gave a good meta list which makes the card choices soo much easier to work with. People sometimes say "what about card XXX," well it kinda depends on the meta for if card XXX is good (within reason, some ideas are just bad and some are obviously good)...meta is everything.

Anyways back to the discussion at hand.

Yeah I don't really like anarchy that much for DnT. I don't have much experience from that deck, I just know it as a white vial aggro deck that has a lot of unique tricks. But my main problem with it is that anarchy is not as good as pyrokinesis...yes it kills all white creatures, but the casting cost difference is a gigantic factor in the vial mirror. Just think about it, what would be better SB material against merfolk (vial aggro that can maximize tempo like us and DnT): pyrokinesis or blueanarchy? I would rather have pyrokinesis.

Expensive spells are just really bad in goblins compared to as other decks. Anarchy's effect is powerful and useful but I would say moreso against controllish decks rather than DnT or something like bant I suppose.

Thorn is only worth it against combo. I tested it against some other decks...burn, canadian, even landstill...it's bad.

Blood Moon isn't really that great against aggro decks, especially aggro decks where you have to take the control role in the beginning (including zoo) because it does nothing to develop your board position that you need to battle for hard in the beginning. It can even blank against zoo sometimes in a way. Yes, it will hose zoo sometimes, but I'd rather have a consistent stream of goblins.

Against loam decks it's really good though. And those might show up if your meta really is that aggro.

@jin: If you can't afford taigas then screw it. RG is best in vial metas...ofentimes undeveloped but sometimes not, where there are lots of aggro decks that are designed to prey on decks that "time stop" themselves (if you haven't read the famous article you should). This includes stuff like Goblins, Merfolk, Counterslivers, etc. but extends to pretty much every aggro deck in legacy, especially monocolored ones that can't pack an answer to everything and have to answer opposing questions in more inventive ways.

That's one reason why I've stuck with goblins so long. It's a lot harder to find good cards for the SB and sometimes the MD, but in the end its so much more rewarding to problem solve in deck construction with this deck than other legacy decks. With other legacy decks its like...have a problem with enchantments? Throw in krosan grip. Not liking the combo/control matchup? Get some spell pierces up in the hood! Sick of all those creatures? Splash red and play firespout. Talk about BOOORING, we're playing old school cards like goblin pyromancer, pyrokinesis, and hell only 6 months ago I had patron of the akki in my sideboard once in a while.

I hate TukTuk Scrapper, I think that card blows and sucks. 4 mana is ridiculous. I need to answer a jitte pretty much immediately or it won't matter if it destroys me. And the bigger overcosted ass doesn't do much in goyf.format (an mws joke ha.ha.ha.). No artifacts in legacy are worth the mana investment, and if they are in your meta than stop playing goblins, usually when I have 4 lands I want to be casting ringleaders or warchief + crazy shenanigans NOW.

Yes, after testing against and with jitte I agree that the best solution is to kill the guys holding it,and the easiest way to do that (especially when the opponent takes you by surprise of course) is with pyrokinesis most of the time.

With weirding I think it is actually sort of BAD in the matchup. I would board it out on the draw, especially if I have a sideboard metagamed against zoo. You are not going to have enough removal, you just have to overextend your ass off, it's the easiest way to win, and no zoo sideboard packs pyroclasm anymore, thank GOD (their best card against us imo because our easiest route to victory is overextension). Weirding is a tempo sink. If your opponent goes t1 nacatl t2 creature, killing off one guy on your second turn is going to result in the zoo player still smashing your face in pretty hard, especially if your board is empty or limited. I mean it is alright but I don't grip the weirdings in my hand in the matchup thinking about how precious they are like I do to my ringleaders, vials, and wastelands.

Yeah, if you can manage to find it here on the forums you can see I was one of the last ones to drop port. But it's just like an ex-girlfriend, get away from it awhile and you'll see that the single (in this case portless....lol "port") world isn't so bad.

What's awesome about port is that it takes advantage of people's tendency to play less lands in legacy. When is port best? Obviously when vial is in play, but it also really shines when your opponent gets stuck on a land.

I once played a guy who kept a 1-land hand playing canadian threshold with 2 basics (island/forest). He fetched up a volcanic and bolted my lackey all cocky-like, shuffling his hand around at mach speed and eyeing the board like he was thinking way harder than I could even think about thinking. Well a wasteland and many turns later he was left with a basic forest in play and then along came port. I was getting flooded but it didn't freaking matter, I was porting a basic forest!! That's LOLZ! And then he played another land and then I wastelanded that one too. A few turns later and goblin goon swept in for the win (what my naive self at the time thought must have been the greatest card ever against aggro-control).

Also winning with port feels awesome. Your opponents get SO pissed and get mad at their decks and they will cry about how unlucky they are. It reveals any closet douchebags: anybody who has to bitch and moan because they kept a land-risky hand against a port and some pressure (ex. cocky ANT players.. OHHH WAIT TOO SOON?).

Goblins can kill on turn 4 with a vial or two if you port on turn 3 I'm pretty sure. And your opponent might have given you that chance by keeping a bad hand that had a plague. But it's still kind of a dream scenario imo.

But yeah port is good and you could probably get away with running only 16 mountains, you run no instigators, only 2 chieftains and the MWM/Stingy save you time to find the second mountain. You should test out 16/4/2 (or 17/4/2) and see what happens, you can always go back.

ETA: I never really meant to compare serenity vs anarchy, I was saying that serenity doesn't look that bad if the metagame does shift in the obvious way. They fill two entirely different roles really. I just kind of PMS when people say certain splashes are strictly better than others. Might be true for some decks and sometimes even for goblins, but everyone's meta is different.

[pater]

One thing I'd like to point out though: Related to the black splash, I don't think it is the weirding that people like but the parish.

Both, but mostly for Perish, you're right.

Current Sideboard:

3x Perish
4x Red Elemental Blast
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Boartusk Liege
2x Tuktuk Scrapper
2x Mindbreak Trap

Scrappers may become Tinkerers or Shattering Spree.
@FoulQ: Goblin Vandal?! OMG, why?

[jin]

Both, but mostly for Perish, you're right.

Current Sideboard:

3x Perish
4x Red Elemental Blast
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Boartusk Liege
2x Tuktuk Scrapper
2x Mindbreak Trap

Scrappers may become Tinkerers or Shattering Spree.
@FoulQ: Goblin Vandal?! OMG, why?

yeah weirding for zoo? iunno..
they just throw away their useless steppe lynx..
i find weirding very bad for the alpha-strike turn..

[Neuad]

Lands (22)

* 5 Mountain
* 4 Wasteland
* 4 Rishadan Port
* 4 Bloodstained Mire
* 3 Badlands
* 2 Taiga

Goblins (33)

* 4 Goblin Warchief
* 4 Goblin Matron
* 4 Goblin Piledriver
* 4 Goblin Ringleader
* 4 Goblin Lackey
* 3 Gempalm Incinerator
* 2 Siege-Gang Commander
* 2 Stingscourger
* 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
* 1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
* 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
* 1 Lightning Crafter
* 1 Goblin Chieftain
* 1 Skirk Prospector


Spells (5)

* 4 AEther Vial
* 1 Warren Weirding

Sideboard (15)

* 3 Perish
* 2 Blood Moon
* 2 Patriarch's Bidding
* 2 Naturalize
* 2 Relic of Progenitus
* 2 Back to Nature
* 1 Extirpate
* 1 Tormod's Crypt

This is the deck my friend suggested I start swinging my build towards, and testing it out on MWS I like it alot, but I have questions about Kiki-Jiki.

If I tap him to copy lightning crafter, championing himself. Tap lightning crafter to deal 3 damage. Sacrifice the lightning crafter token to Skirk Prospector. . .does Kiki-Jiki come back into play untapped?

[ScatmanX]

If I tap him to copy lightning crafter, championing himself. Tap lightning crafter to deal 3 damage. Sacrifice the lightning crafter token to Skirk Prospector. . .does Kiki-Jiki come back into play untapped?

Yes.

[Neuad]

So that forms an infinite combo thats instant GG. . . and unlimited red mana but thats besides the point =p

[FoulQ]

@ pater, what do you side the 4 REBs in for exactly? Just wondering I've always thought it was a strange decision whether to board it against some FOW decks. And like I was saying, I really wanted to find an effective answer to jitte in MonoR but there really isn't one, even stretching to cards like goblin vandal, yes. It got that desperate. In the end pyrokinesis is best probably.

@ Neuad, personally I'm not a fan of that combo as it makes your deck more inconsistent. What I like about goblins is that it is a consistent aggro deck compared to many other legacy aggro decks IF (and only IF) the goblins player knows how to properly mulligan and doesn't puss out of mulliganing. All the somewhat situational 1-ofs I don't like, because there is rarely a reason to tutor them over ringleader. The only 1-ofs I like are stingscourger, chieftain, tin street hooligan, possibly gempalm/weirding, SGC in a tight list, etc...cards that you would tutor for sometimes, and randomly drawing them could save you in tight situations. Otherwise I aim for consistency, t3 matron/warchief --> t4 ringleader/swarm.

I would replace naturalize with krosan grip if I were you, the extra mana cost is well worth it.

Personally I think you guys are a little wacko for liking a 5cc situational sorcery requiring BB, maybe against the most dedicated of control decks but otherwise I'm staying away from that.

Also I really don't like your manabase. If you are going to play 4 ports in a RBG build you definitely need at least 23 lands, probably 24. Which is why most people don't do it, at least not 4 ports. You are going to have trouble finding your splash colors probably, especially because: you will need to crack your mires oftentimes immediately, making it difficult to decide for mountain/badlands/taiga... it is harder for goblins to sit on fetches than other decks, because they need consistent land drops early to be able to set up the mid/late game with ringleader. It really sucks to lose to your own manabase with goblins, especially since YOU are supposed to be screwing up theirs.

[pater]

@ pater, what do you side the 4 REBs in for exactly? Just wondering I've always thought it was a strange decision whether to board it against some FOW decks. And like I was saying, I really wanted to find an effective answer to jitte in MonoR but there really isn't one, even stretching to cards like goblin vandal, yes. It got that desperate. In the end pyrokinesis is best probably.
My meta has alot of blue, so yeah, mostly it targets early FoWs that try to stop Vial. Anything with blue is always loaded with counters, so it helps. There doesn't seem to be anything else really.

yeah weirding for zoo? iunno..
they just throw away their useless steppe lynx..
i find weirding very bad for the alpha-strike turn..
What do you run instead? Mainboard Pyrokinesis? Can't think of any other way to kill 2 blockers on T2. Gotta work with what we got. Perish comes in to help against Zoo, but I prefer Weirding over Stingscourger for alpha strike.

[Brizentine Empire]

My meta has alot of blue, so yeah, mostly it targets early FoWs that try to stop Vial. Anything with blue is always loaded with counters, so it helps. There doesn't seem to be anything else really.

What do you run instead? Mainboard Pyrokinesis? Can't think of any other way to kill 2 blockers on T2. Gotta work with what we got. Perish comes in to help against Zoo, but I prefer Weirding over Stingscourger for alpha strike.

You play REB to counter a FoW on an "early" Vial? That means you are waiting until turn two to play vial, and you're still tapping out into a possible daze. A turn three vial isn't exactly early, so I'm not reeing the use here. REB for Rhox War Monk or against Merfolk, on the other hand, is good.

Also, in what way is Weirding better than Stingscourger for the alpha strike? You choose the target with scourger AND its a guy that gets to swing in if you have a warchief/chieftain. I won't debate the usefulness of Weirding and its Edict effect, but I just feel like Stingscourger is a much better alpha strike card.

[partyx2000]

Hey guys,

This is my Vial Goblins deck.

Land - 23

2 - Taiga
2 - Rishadan Port
3 - Badlands
4 - Bloodstained Mire
4 - Wooded Foothills
4 - Wasteland
4 - Mountain

Other - 8

4 - Æther Vial
4 - Warren Weirding

Creatures - 29

1 - Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 - Warren Instigator
3 - Gempalm Incinerator
3 - Siege-Gang Commander
4 - Goblin Ringleader
4 - Goblin Warchief
4 - Goblin Lackey
4 - Goblin Matron
4 - Goblin Piledriver

Sideboard - 15

2 - Pithing Needle
2 - Extirpate
3 - Krosan Grip
4 - Cabal Therapy
4 - Leyline of the Void

Im trying to make the deck as fast as possible (as one would with gobo's) Does anyone see any problems at all that I may have missed?

Any comments at all?

Cheers

[jin]

What do you run instead? Mainboard Pyrokinesis? Can't think of any other way to kill 2 blockers on T2. Gotta work with what we got. Perish comes in to help against Zoo, but I prefer Weirding over Stingscourger for alpha strike.

Err, I tried Pyrokinesis back in 2008.. maybe? I just run stingers/gempalms/fanatics (now bolts). I play a mono red list though. Why would you need to kill two blockers on turn two? Why would they have two blockers on turn two? Why are they so damn fast.. LOL. I don't really like pyrokinesis since you lose card advantage more often than not.

I don't understand. How is weirding better than stinger for the alpha strike?


You play REB to counter a FoW on an "early" Vial? That means you are waiting until turn two to play vial, and you're still tapping out into a possible daze. A turn three vial isn't exactly early, so I'm not reeing the use here. REB for Rhox War Monk or against Merfolk, on the other hand, is good.

Also, in what way is Weirding better than Stingscourger for the alpha strike? You choose the target with scourger AND its a guy that gets to swing in if you have a warchief/chieftain. I won't debate the usefulness of Weirding and its Edict effect, but I just feel like Stingscourger is a much better alpha strike card.

Amen.

[jin]

Hey guys,

This is my Vial Goblins deck.

Land - 23

2 - Taiga
2 - Rishadan Port
3 - Badlands
4 - Bloodstained Mire
4 - Wooded Foothills
4 - Wasteland
4 - Mountain

Other - 8

4 - Æther Vial
4 - Warren Weirding

Creatures - 29

1 - Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 - Warren Instigator
3 - Gempalm Incinerator
3 - Siege-Gang Commander
4 - Goblin Ringleader
4 - Goblin Warchief
4 - Goblin Lackey
4 - Goblin Matron
4 - Goblin Piledriver

Sideboard - 15

2 - Pithing Needle
2 - Extirpate
3 - Krosan Grip
4 - Cabal Therapy
4 - Leyline of the Void

Im trying to make the deck as fast as possible (as one would with gobo's) Does anyone see any problems at all that I may have missed?

Any comments at all?

Cheers

On the draw, a resolved lackey would probably destroy you. If you want it to go faster, maybe some Goblin Pyromancers are in order.. LOL. I think zoo will be pretty tough without Perish or Mogg War Marshal.

You seem to be very ready for reanimator though.. LOL.. dredge.. a bit of combo hate there too... anti equipment and CBT.. moat/humility. Your Kgrips might have to go overtime against thopter foundry decks though seeing you'd probably have to hit Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Humility, Thopter Foundry, etc.

You might wanna fit anarchy/perish into your side board.. and maybe Tin Street Hoolagin in the main?

[partyx2000]

In regards to my decklist above; would it be better for my decklist to run like this:

Main:
- 2 Instigators
+2 TSH

SB:
- 1 Pithing Needle
- 2 Extirpate
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 4 Leyline of the Void
+ 3 Pyrokinesis
+ 4 Perish
+ 4 Anarchy

[lotriderm]

In regards to my decklist above; would it be better for my decklist to run like this:

Main:
- 2 Instigators
+2 TSH

SB:
- 1 Pithing Needle
- 2 Extirpate
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 4 Leyline of the Void
+ 3 Pyrokinesis
+ 4 Perish
+ 4 Anarchy

4 Anarchy in the side is definite overkill. Since you splashed green, Krosan Grip takes care of all the scary white enchantments anyways (such as Moat, Humility, COP:Red, etc). The most troublesome white creature I can think of at this moment is RWM, and Perish takes care of that already. I believe Anarchy is only used in MonoR decks since they have no way to get rid of said white enchanments and creatures.

Also, if you're cutting Instigators, you should probably trim SCG to 2 since with five 4-drops and three 5-drops, your hands are going to be a little clunky.


@ Pyrokinesis

For those playing with Pyrokinesis in your SB, what cards do you usually side out for it? Also, what cards do you usually end up removing from your hand in order to play the Pyrokinesis?

[FoulQ]

@ partyx2000: I don't think it would necessarily be "better." You should test it if you have time, to see what's it like. But everyone prefers different things, ya know?

I will say that I tested a lot of goblin sideboard cards, extirpate being one of them. It's bad, especially if it is not a 4-of (because then it has some decent usage against say...loam).

Personally I wouldn't dare have 0 gy hate in my sideboard for pretty much any legacy deck. I love me somes graveyard hate. I fucking HATE graveyards.

4 Anarchy is a lot, I see mainly 2-3, 4 anarchy seems excessive or is that just me?

If you really want speed than x4 pyrokinesis in sideboard. It's FREE casting cost!!

[Neuad]

Kiki-Jiki was a late game winner for me. Simply amazing card nobody should pass up as a one of in your deck.

[FoulQ]

Kiki-Jiki was a late game winner for me. Simply amazing card nobody should pass up as a one of in your deck.

DISAGREE DUDE. It's win-more. I think a lot of people have agreed over the last bajillion years: Kiki-Jiki is not worth the SGC slot it takes up. SGC is good when you are losing, KJMB is better when you are winning. Which do YOU choose?

[Neuad]

. . . . . Josh?

And for whats its worth. SCG > Kiki-Jiki > Copy Siege Gang commander for a free chump blocker, and 3 awesome goblin tokens.

[FoulQ]

. . . . . Josh?

And for whats its worth. SCG > Kiki-Jiki > Copy Siege Gang commander for a free chump blocker, and 3 awesome goblin tokens.

LOL man. I dunno, that seems as likely as two chicks at once. And I'm struggling to get ONE right now. Fucking awkward teenage years, why can't I just LEGALLY buy alcohol?

[Neuad]

I did it today, twice! Kiki-Jiki chump blockers saved my board as I got the firepower to clear theirs and win the game!

[partyx2000]

ok so sideboard is going to look like this:

Sideboard - 15

1 - Pithing Needle
2 - Tormod's Crypt
2 - Perish
3 - Krosan Grip
2 - Anarchy
4 - Pyrokinesis

In regards to the MB:

- 1 SGC
- 2 Warren Wierding
+ 3 Mogg War Marshall

Thoughts?

[jtwilkins]

. . . . . Josh?

And for whats its worth. SCG > Kiki-Jiki > Copy Siege Gang commander for a free chump blocker, and 3 awesome goblin tokens.

LOL, nope wasn't me. I'm not the only one with the opinion that Kiki is win more. He did help you on those games but thats what happens with any card you stick in. You haven't testing him over a long time and all that sticks out in your head is the insane plays.

[jin]

I believe Anarchy is only used in MonoR decks since they have no way to get rid of said white enchanments and creatures.


Elspeth, multiple Stirling Grove, Burreton Forge Tender, annoying soldier things with first strike deck..(they probably have pro red too.)


ok so sideboard is going to look like this:

Sideboard - 15

1 - Pithing Needle
2 - Tormod's Crypt
2 - Perish
3 - Krosan Grip
2 - Anarchy
4 - Pyrokinesis

In regards to the MB:

- 1 SGC
- 2 Warren Wierding
+ 3 Mogg War Marshall

Thoughts?

looks good.. I'd try to fit in the tin street hoolagin too if I could.. since you have forests..
what's up with the pithing needle? What's that for?

Hmm.. feels like you are ignoring the combo match up.. which is why most people play black I think..

[partyx2000]

Yeah the instigators will be TSH's..

Not sure what to put in sideboard to combat Combo though

[lotriderm]

With the black splash you have duress, thoughtseize, cabal therapy. With artifacts you have chalice, thorn, null rod, etc. Theres pyrostatic pillar for red and then theres mindbreak trap. Really depends on what you like.

[jin]

Without FOW, it is generally all really bad. Some people just try to race it. A fast clock is an option aggro decks have.

[partyx2000]

Hey guys,

This is my decklist revised:

Land - 23

2 - Taiga
2 - Rishadan Port
3 - Badlands
4 - Bloodstained Mire
4 - Wooded Foothills
4 - Wasteland
4 - Mountain

Other - 6

4 - Æther Vial
2 - Warren Weirding

Creatures - 31

1 - Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 - Tin Street Hooligan
2 - Siege-Gang Commander
3 - Mogg War Marshal
3 - Gempalm Incinerator
4 - Goblin Ringleader
4 - Goblin Warchief
4 - Goblin Lackey
4 - Goblin Matron
4 - Goblin Piledriver

Sideboard - 15

2 - Cabal Therapy
2 - Tormod's Crypt
2 - Perish
3 - Krosan Grip
2 - Anarchy
4 - Pyrokinesis


Thoughts?

[Neuad]

Take out 2 Fetches, add 2 Ports imo.

[Nelis]

Take out green. Why weakening your manabase for a card (Tin Street Hooligan. Hooligan also happens to do nothing when you have a warchief in play) for which are alternatives (tinkerer, scrapper) and Krosan Grip with which you can do without. Taiga can be exchanged for Rishadan Port / Badland / Aunties Hovel.

[jrw1985]

I just started testing with Kiki-Jiki and HOT DAMN I like that card a LOT! It has incredible synergy with SOOO many cards in your deck. He lets you Ringleader every turn, search with a Matron every turn, generate 3 new tokens via Siege-Gang EVERY TURN. See where I'm going with this? I would take Kiki over Wort any day of the week. It is so much faster and gives you so many more options. Stingscourger in hand? Why not bounce your opponent's Tarmogoyf? When they replay it next turn, why not copy the Stingscourger and bounce it again? What's better than one Sharpshooter? 2 SHARPSHOOTERS! And when the token dies, you get to untap the real one again. What fun! And since good old Kiki has Haste you're actually guaranteed one use out of him, unlike that disappointing Wort that always seems to get Bolted or Pathed or whathaveyou. Some seem to think that SGC should always be run over Kiki, but I think Kiki is better in all but the worst case scenario (like having your board cleared, in which case having one more SGC in your deck probably isn't going to win you the game anyway).

NEW QUESTION-

How do you kids feel about Slavering Nulls? I haven't had a chance to playtest them yet, but it seems that they would add a nice layer of control element to a R/B build. We already go after our opponents' lands, so why not knock a card or two out of their hand as well? They're easy to play, and actually pack a punch with 2 power. I'd just like to hear from some folks with experience running them as to whether or not they're worth 2-3 slots maindeck.

NEWER NEWER QUESTION-
Meekstone in sideboard? I was thinking about this and it's cheaper than Perish and more versatile (think Merfolk, Knight of the Reliquary). Basically I'm trying to get the most punch against Zoo, while still being able to get some use out of it against something else.

Oh, and leave in Green. Running two Taigas doesn't weaken your manabase. KGrip is awesome, as is Reverent Silence.

[ScatmanX]

New Anweser: Doesent make the cut. Every single time you play it, even against combo, you wish it were another 2 drop. You want to run 4 Piledrivers before running that, and then, you have Instigator, Warmarchal, Weirdings, Stingscourer... all better in most situations...

Newer Newer anweser: It's good. It is not great, but if you tune your deck to use it, like maxing Mogg Warmarchal, Gempalms, running monored... that makes the card better. I prefer using black and Weirdings, but its your call...

[FoulQ]

Alright here is my opinion on the card ideas. Take it or leave it.

I'll just be honest, and I hate to sound like a douche, but Kiki-Jiki is liked more by bad goblin pilots over good ones. Good ones like Siege-Gang Commander a lot. The deck is about synergy above all else, the BIG PICTURE, rather than individual card choices. KJ is pricy like SGC but doesn't have the same insane synergy with the other cards: laying an SGC without an immediate response is usually a win, just like laying a KJ without a response is usually a win.

The matter of the fact is, both cards usually get killed pretty quickly, but SGC is a lot harder for the opponent to recover from most of the time (if their response is timely). The only time KJ really shines above SGC is when you have a few turns to work with him. And honestly, you really don't need 6 ringleaders to win, you just need 2-3 and most games are over no matter what. And a few turns of any 5cc goblin is usually enough to seal the game, unless you are an inept pilot.

Kiki-Jiki is flashy but SGC is reliable. Would you rather have Brett Favre or Peyton Manning? I'd rather have Peyton Manning.

Slavering Nulls is unplayable. You are approaching the card from a isolated aspect when all card choices in goblins are extremely dependent on other card choices. SGC becomes a lot better when you are playing instigator. Mogg War Marshal and Goblin Chieftain have some synergy. Ex..

Slavering Nulls is an alright card, and at first glance looks to be as powerful as the other cards in the deck. But goblins has never been about power, goblin cards SUCK ASS compared to real legacy cards. All the pieces fit together nicely and removing one causes a collapse, which is why effective mulliganing is so crucial with goblins. Goblins are all about teamwork, like saturday morning cartoons you know? I wouldn't run the card if there weren't a plethora of great alternatives, but there actually is a ton of great ones.

I played meekstone in goblins pre-scourge. That's right, back when clickslither was the shit and goblin goon kicked major ass. It was bad then and I still think it's bad now. Not that the card itself is bad, but I don't think corkscrew solutions are how goblins should work.

[TossUsToLions]

What does everyone think about having combo hate in SB? Are Thorn of Amethyst/Mindbreak Trap/Chalice of the Void necessary with the fall of ANT? Yes, belcher may still be played but it doesnt seem to be too common. Reanimator is answered by GY hate which is necessary in SB anyways. I play R/b gobbos with a SB that looks like this:

4 Pyrokenisis
3 Peish
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Earwig Squad

[ScatmanX]

arguments

Preety much what he said.
I just fit a deck can be tunned to run Meekstone.
Not that it SHOULd... but could...

@ TossUsToLions
That sb looks almost like mine, but I prefer Needle instead of Spree. It stops most anoying things Spree stops, and more...

[ScatmanX]

arguments

Preety much what he said.
I just fit a deck can be tunned to run Meekstone.
Not that it SHOULd... but could...

@ TossUsToLions
That sb looks almost like mine, but I prefer Needle instead of Spree. It stops most anoying things Spree stops, and more...

[TossUsToLions]

That sb looks almost like mine, but I prefer Needle instead of Spree. It stops most anoying things Spree stops, and more...

Wow, i forgot all about Needle. It stops Jitte, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, etc. That is an awesome idea and I have a few laying around. Thanks!

[Humphrey]

What do you guys think about Gempalm Incinerator (in BR)?

Is he still that useful? I have the feeling it doesnt do enough dmg most of the time (exept your playing with War Marshals)

[FoulQ]

What do you guys think about Gempalm Incinerator (in BR)?

Is he still that useful? I have the feeling it doesnt do enough dmg most of the time (exept your playing with War Marshals)

Personally I think you need at least 1 as removal 6-9 (depending) and as a tutor target. It is a great transition card and is often the extra push you need to seal the game. In addition it is uncounterable and cantrips.

I'm currently testing a list with 4 gempalms. It also depends on what you want for removal, you should have 6-8, I prefer 6-7 personally, mostly 7. In my RB list that is 4 weirding, 2 gempalm, 1 stingscourger. But some people like lightning bolt. In my MonoR list its currently 4 gempalm and 3 stingscourger.

So it depends more on your removal count than anything, how many weirdings you play. As far as removal goes, gempalm is definitely tied for best or second only to weirding. Lightning Bolt is okay but not as good imo, and I consider stingscourger removal but in a different way...obviously...

Gempalm was still useful before Zoo and Merfolk became popular, back when most of the targets were very large. He became more useful when those two decks showed up, and now he will become even more useful if the meta shifts in the predicted way.

He can be frustrating because the removal is conditional, but if you just space out your removal wisely to take best advantage of it rather than blindly aiming weirdings at goyfs, you should be fine.

[Nelis]

In my MonoR list its currently 4 gempalm and 3 stingscourger.

Do you need THAT many Stingscourgers with 4 Gempalms? I just run 1, I wouldn't know what to take out for 2 more. What's your mono Red list?

My list at the moment:

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sting Scourger
2 Goblin Warchief

//Artifacts
4 AEther Vial

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Blood Moon
2 Anarchy
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormods Crypt

I'm not sure about Ravenous Trap, I think I'll change them for Relic.

[partyx2000]

whats the thought process and strategy behind running both Chieftan and Warcheif? I would of thought it would be best to run just Warcheif, saving space for other cards??

[Nelis]

whats the thought process and strategy behind running both Chieftan and Warcheif? I would of thought it would be best to run just Warcheif, saving space for other cards??


The idea behind running 2 Warchiefs and 4 Chieftains was that a turn 2 War Marshal is best followed by a turn 3 Chieftain. And I realized that Warchief wasn't really needed until midgame so that's why I went for that configuration. I didn't feel like cutting another goblin for a third Warchief. Maybe a 3/3 split between Warchief and Chieftain could work too.

[jin]

@Nelis

I'm sorry, I don't understand the reasoning as well. A turn two war marshal followed by a turn three cheiftain? Not only is that ONLY 6 damage if unblocked, it is unlikely you'll be swinging for the 6 damage on turn 3 since against aggro decks, they'd probably block your chieftain and against blue decks, you would have walked into a daze.. which is bad.

I get that warchief in the same slot would do less damage and be susceptible to the same removal/counter magic, but warchief is a tempo gain they have to remove where as chieftain doesn't have to be removed until the attacking turn.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that although chieftain might be an awsome card, I don't think he should replace warchief entirely and that you are playing them for the wrong reasons.

war marshal is best played for one mana or through a vial and a war marshal on turn two is best followed by paying the upkeep or a second war marshal.. That's just what I think.

[(nameless one)]

update time:

I am trying to update my Goblin deck. Its a mono-red list (due to budget restrictions)

Here is my current list:




15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 AEther Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
3 Goblin Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Siege-Gang Commander

There has been a lot of talk with Mogg War-Marshall lately. Is it really effective? I have been contemplating on replacing Warren Instigators with them. FoulQ has discussed that Warren Instigators are really good but I find them dead late game. If I ever rip them out early though, they are a bomb. They are mostly removal fodder to make way for the the chiefs or Piledriver. And its a bonus if they actually hit. I have been thinking of using Mogg War-Marshalls because apparently they are good against the other the aggro decks of the format. They also support Incinerator in that manner. If I ever replace Warren Instigators for Mogg War-Marshalls, would Goblin Pyromancer[/Goblin] be a one-of?

Sideboarding:
I noticed that since Alara saw print, [cards]Goblin Sharpshooter has not seen any action from the sideboard. They might not be as good against Zoo and Merfolk but would they be good against Combo Elves and Thopters? I feel that Goblin Sharpshooter needs to be re-evaluated like Mogg War-Marshall.

Also, I have grown fond of Anarchy for the mono-red builds. There isn't really a consistent Enchantress player in my meta but it does show up once in a while. I think Anarchy is a great answer card against white splashed board-control decks. Coutnerbalance decks on the other hand, I think we dont really need Anarchy against them. Besides, Goblins does a real good job against that archetype anyways.

Also, would Boartusk Liege be good against the aggro decks of the format? Would Goblin King compare to Lord of Atlantis? I have heard stories of Goblin King being the MVP against zoo (paired with the chiefs) being able to plow unblocked to the opposing opponent.

Speaking of Zoo, how should I play that matchup? Should I just try to take the Zoo player to late game (if its possible) and win via card advantage?

Thanks for the advices.

[Nelis]

@Nelis

1. I'm sorry, I don't understand the reasoning as well. A turn two war marshal followed by a turn three cheiftain? Not only is that ONLY 6 damage if unblocked, it is unlikely you'll be swinging for the 6 damage on turn 3 since against aggro decks, they'd probably block your chieftain and against blue decks, you would have walked into a daze.. which is bad.

2. I get that warchief in the same slot would do less damage and be susceptible to the same removal/counter magic, but warchief is a tempo gain they have to remove where as chieftain doesn't have to be removed until the attacking turn.

3. I guess what I'm trying to say is that although chieftain might be an awsome card, I don't think he should replace warchief entirely and that you are playing them for the wrong reasons.

4. war marshal is best played for one mana or through a vial and a war marshal on turn two is best followed by paying the upkeep or a second war marshal. That's just what I think.

I'm ignoring the best case scenario which is having a Aether Vial into play, its the worst case scenarios I'm more interested in.

1. If you're playing against Zoo you will not be attacking anyway because you are the control player. You have to 'sacrifice' a lot of resources (goblins) playing vs Zoo. Wether it be Chieftain of Warchief or any Goblin, you need them to block until you can run them over with Ringleaders generated card advantage.
When it is time to attack (late game and with enough mana to play stuff) I want to put as much pressure in as possible. A Siege-Gang and Chieftain do that better than Siege Gang and Warchief.

Playing around Daze is worse than running into it if those are the only choices. But it all depends on the cards in hand. It's not that I go turn 3 Chieftain at all costs. If I have the possibility to play a card that that costs two mana (Piley or War Marshal) I'll do that and play Chieftain on turn 4 so I wont be Dazed either. But sometimes it is necessary to have a card Dazed so you're able to push other cards through.

I understand that I will miss out on an occasional Warchief, Piledriver play on turn 4 but I willing to take that (small) risk in favor of more consistency.

2. I don't get what you mean by 'doesn't have to be removed until the attacking turn.' In my opinion the tempo gain of warchief is only relevant in mid and lategame when there's enough mana available to make use of warchief. A lot of times we're busy doing other stuff early game anyway like using Rishadan Port. That's why I only need Warchief from midgame onwards and thus I'm running only two.

3. I'm not advocating to replace Warchief. I believe in a peaceful coexistence between the two. I want to increase the chance on having more haste in the deck. But both lords fulfill a different role at different stages during the game (the ones I explained) and with both lords I simply have more options. But like I said I might go for 3/3 Warchief / Chieftain configuration. But only as soon as I have the feeling I lose out too often by running only 2 Warchiefs.

4. So if the situation permits you to play Chieftain on turn 3 you rather play another War Marshal and do an attack for 1 damage than 6 damage? Or you rather pay the upkeep cost of a War Marshal and do 2 damage on turn 3 than 6 damage? Why?

[FoulQ]

Do you need THAT many Stingscourgers with 4 Gempalms? I just run 1, I wouldn't know what to take out for 2 more. What's your mono Red list?

My list at the moment:

No you definitely don't. Just from my recent RB days I enjoy having 6-7 removal and stingscourger is the next best "removal" option to gempalm in monored. Especially in the format currently where creatures are the primary battleground.

If anyone is wondering, I did once test a list with 4 sting/3 gempalm: it was bad. 4 Sting should never happen.

My MonoR list isn't very tested right now, I'm working on Rg and Rw. But it looks something like this, either 22 or 23 lands (-1 SGC)

ESSENTIALS (20)
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver

FLEX (14)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

MANA (26)
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
14 Mountain

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Pyrokinesis
4 GY Hate
7 Whatever

A few notes on the synergy in this deck. Yes it does not run instigator but that is because I'm testing out port again in this new meta. If I ran instigator I'd run x2 or x3 and take out at least 2 ports. I still think instigator is good but this build plays a little differently.

This build is looking to optimize t3 matron-->t4 ringleader--> t5 ringleader/sgc/matron --> etc. Generally that's my favorite line of play no matter what so I want to focus on that, as it can't really be stopped by anything. 3 MWM is a stalling tactic and gets along with chieftain to stall longer. They can also be decent beaters if they don't need to buy time. 3 Sting is a lot but is like 6 between MWM/Sting which is mainly for the zoo matchup. Sting also is good on the offensive and STILL to this day, most players don't see him coming. Freaking idiots.

Also with more goblins in play gempalm is better, and with my stalling tactics we will get to the mid or late game with many goblins in play, making gempalm stronger. He also draws me cards to help fix my situation as I transition from control to aggro in many matchups.

4 Pyrokinesis is best because I expect to have more goblins, which means more getting blocked and dying to nacatls and the like, so I expect the combat zone to be littered with damage that pyrokinesis can take advantage of. I also think it is the best removal spell for goblins in a unique way because of the tempo aspect. 4 GY Hate because I can't go a day without it. 7 Whatever, you know, whatever. Mix of chieftains, moons, rebs, a couple rogue goblins like pyromancer/sharpshooter, whatev. Meta choices. I'd definitely have 2 chieftains though, because he fights plague and other random aggro decks, but what people ALWAYS miss is that he ROCKS the mirror. With even hands, chieftain will overwhelm your opponent very fast.

Basically I'm predicting aggro, especially zoo, and this list is meta'd for it. You don't need 6-7 removal I guess, but I want it for this predicted meta. And you could run something besides sting if you wanted, lightning bolt, fanatic, or do the easy thing and splash black for the strong weirding.


There has been a lot of talk with Mogg War-Marshall lately. Is it really effective? I have been contemplating on replacing Warren Instigators with them. FoulQ has discussed that Warren Instigators are really good but I find them dead late game. If I ever rip them out early though, they are a bomb. They are mostly removal fodder to make way for the the chiefs or Piledriver. And its a bonus if they actually hit. I have been thinking of using Mogg War-Marshalls because apparently they are good against the other the aggro decks of the format. They also support Incinerator in that manner. If I ever replace Warren Instigators for Mogg War-Marshalls, would Goblin Pyromancer[/Goblin] be a one-of?

Sideboarding:
I noticed that since Alara saw print, [cards]Goblin Sharpshooter has not seen any action from the sideboard. They might not be as good against Zoo and Merfolk but would they be good against Combo Elves and Thopters? I feel that Goblin Sharpshooter needs to be re-evaluated like Mogg War-Marshall.

Also, I have grown fond of Anarchy for the mono-red builds. There isn't really a consistent Enchantress player in my meta but it does show up once in a while. I think Anarchy is a great answer card against white splashed board-control decks. Coutnerbalance decks on the other hand, I think we dont really need Anarchy against them. Besides, Goblins does a real good job against that archetype anyways.

Also, would Boartusk Liege be good against the aggro decks of the format? Would Goblin King compare to Lord of Atlantis? I have heard stories of Goblin King being the MVP against zoo (paired with the chiefs) being able to plow unblocked to the opposing opponent.

Speaking of Zoo, how should I play that matchup? Should I just try to take the Zoo player to late game (if its possible) and win via card advantage?

Thanks for the advices.

I think you are incorrect in saying instigator is dead later in the game. Instigator is a must block pretty much 24/7 whether you are bluffing or not, it economically is usually not worth the risk for your opponent to let an instigator in. Instigator is very strong against all aggro-control lists, especially STP decks. He is must answer 5-8 along with lackey. Gotta love must answers that are also very synergistic with th deck right?

I would probably never play goblin pyromancer in the MD again. SB though it is a lot of fun, can come in against decks where your removal is dead like burn or enchantress to increase your clock (since matchups like that are often a clock race in some way or form).

Goblin Sharpshooter is bad because it often time walks you (like certain SB cards people seem to love) similar to why jitte is bad in goblin SBs (along with no reliable evasion of course). Also it sometimes isn't even relevant against the matchups you SB it in for. It's outdated with the power creep on creatures, but not dead. Most decks should stay away from him imo.

Goblins doesn't do that well against CB matchup. It is favorable but not that easy, especially because CB lists can be tuned to beat aggro, and if they meta'd correctly and SB for the matchup it is often enough to make it even.

I don't like boartusk liege or goblin king personally. But I've gotten into that like a million times.

And yes the easiest way to beat zoo is to go for late game CA and then overextend. Which is why I think zoo should be playing pyroclasm in their SB if they expect goblins, but they are still too cocky to ever listen to an established deck goblins player.

[Endril]

@nameless one: I don't think sharpshooter has been cut from most goblin lists. Of the 3 goblin decks that top 16'd at St Louis, 2 of them ran sharpshooter. I was the other one, and it's in my SB now. I think you can expect to see more of him, not so much for elves, but because of how often that extra 1 damage counts. And I stopped using the goblin king trick because they'll usually just zap it then kill all your dudes by blocking. When it comes to zoo, I don't think card advantage is enough. You need control of the game before you can drop ringleader or you'll just die before you can play the cards he gets you. That's why I think you DO need 6-7 removal sources. I run more like 8-9 myself.

@FoulQ: I agree with maybe half or more of what you said, and the other half can be justified in some way except for the statement that we don't do well against CB. If you're really watching the results, you'd see we win over 70% of our matches against them. I'd say that's good. We should probably just ignore that deck when thinking about SB. Half of them don't even run firespout, which is the one card that evens them up with us.

[FoulQ]

Well then yes you caught me, at least it's good news. I guess I have a personal bias that counterbalance-goyf decks always have the ability to pull wins out of their asses.

When I tried 9 removal I did not like it, but it was a long time ago. It makes it much harder to aggro out, and that is still the primary option in most matchups. It seems like a heavy metagame warp that could work under the right conditions.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on sharpshooter. His effect is good, but often conditional. I don't like risking the 2R investment on something that can't really attack, can barely chump, and whose entire worth is conditional-based. Just to compare, a card like stingscourger is almost always consistently useful (unless you are winning hardcore), and I've always been of the opinion that goblins should aim for consistency. Plus I really like creatures who can bring in the beats if need be (unlike sharpshooter) from my SSG+Jitte in dragon stompy days.

[Endril]

Yeah it was the countertop-goyf decks I was referring to. I personally beat 3-4 of them at St Louis, although I did have Perish. It's hard to lock us out of the game when we have 8 turn 1 outs to their control (vial, lackey). I'm 1-1 vs thopter=top, so I'm not sure what to say against that deck.

9 removal may be excessive. 7-8 may be a happy medium. It's a little more than the 6-7 average of past successful goblin decks, but the meta appears to be shifting more to aggro with the banning of mystical tutor, if even a little. It doesn't help that zoo has been putting up insane win %'s.

I took out sharpshooter before St Louis because I found myself not looking for him when he was in my MD... there was always something I wanted more. But when I sat across from a goblin player, I was afraid of seeing it. Call me paranoid, but I was waiting for him to either drop it and clear half my board, or vial it in after a couple guys took 1 and wipe my board. I found out he decided not to side it in (what?!?). Looking back on my pairings, it's questionable against decks like merfolk, but a definite in vs goblins. I'd much rather kill all their x/1 goblins than bounce one. I don't agree with ppl that main deck it though. Just 1 in the SB is probably enough to make it worth it. And if you want beats with sharpshooter, combine it with SCG sac'ing tokens. I've done that a couple times and did an extra couple points a turn with the sharpshooter. Yeah I know, it's situational.

[FoulQ]

You definitely should side it in for the mirror, that guy is crazy.

But from my testing of the mirror, the goblin I like the most is goblin chieftain. With an even board position he wins, with a winning board position the game will be over very fast, and with a losing board position he can help you block your way back into the game. I haven't tested enough to know if it suffers from "goblin king syndrome" in the mirror, which is where the opponent kills him after attackers/blockers are declared.

I was worried that my drawing on stingscourger would force a comparison between the two, but I was just looking for a card as an example of consistency.

I used to love sharpshooter pre-m10. I already have x4 pyrokinesis and x2 chieftain for the mirror so a 7th card mainly for goblins I don't really have space for. If you aren't playing pyrokinesis (basically, RB for perish instead) AND you are expecting goblins (or other x/1 decks), then yes I'd play 1 SB sharpshooter.

But for the current meta I'm not sure I really like perish over pyrokinesis. Or both? I don't know yet.

I'm also curious about countertop thopter? What people think of the matchup, our chances and best strategies? I don't play extended so I'm not really familiar yet with the intricacies of the mini-combo.

[jrw1985]

I'm also curious about countertop thopter? What people think of the matchup, our chances and best strategies? I don't play extended so I'm not really familiar yet with the intricacies of the mini-combo.

I've only played against it once, but like other control decks it has a hard time handling all the different ways we're able to throw damage at them and cheat things into play. I beat it game 1 by just overpowering him. Game 2 I sided in K-Grip which took out his Moat and he scooped. This deck is also why I've started running Leyline of the Void. It's hard to recurr a Sword of the Meek when it's removed from the game the first time you sack it.

[Zay]

I'm also curious about countertop thopter? What people think of the matchup, our chances and best strategies?

I am going to test the Countertop Thropter heavily Friday. I feel that sharpshooter should do good in the match by killing off tokens at will. Unless Countertop Thropter get Humility into play.

Anarchy is a card that looks good but should have a hard time resolving it; due to the fact Countertop Thropter runs up to 4 spell with a casting cost of 4. Countertop Thropter can tutor them to the top of their library with Enlightened Tutor along with their normal library shenanigans and 7 or 8 counter magic.

Another thing to note is that Thopter Foundry produces "blue thopters" making Piledriver unblockable in the matchup.

I'll post my thoughts matchup Friday night or Saturday.


On a different note,is Landstill making a come back? Kyle Boggemes of SCG wrote about playing it in a legacy tournament. Guillaume Wafo-Tapa top 8ed Bazaar of Moxen IV in May with Landstill. Landstill has been doing very well on MTGO. Running cards like:

Pernicious Deed
Hydroblast
Engineered Plague

Should we be taking this information into our sideboard construction?

-Zay

[ScatmanX]

Counter top Thopter is, imo, easy. Not a bye beause of Moat.
Theyre CB lock is even worse than a normal build against us.
Post sb it gets easier. Everyone plays something on the boards against them. Anarchy, REB, Sharpshooter, P. Needle... Even Crafter is good here, because of Moat. But good lists prefer humility.
I think is very hard for that deck to beat goblins.

Edit: Oh, and even Extirpate, to shuffle theyre library after a tutor, is sweet.

[lotriderm]

Looking back on my pairings, it's questionable against decks like merfolk, but a definite in vs goblins. I'd much rather kill all their x/1 goblins than bounce one. I don't agree with ppl that main deck it though. Just 1 in the SB is probably enough to make it worth it. And if you want beats with sharpshooter, combine it with SCG sac'ing tokens. I've done that a couple times and did an extra couple points a turn with the sharpshooter. Yeah I know, it's situational.

I actually bring it in against Merfolk because Kira, Great Glass-Spinner is a bitch to deal with. I also run a maindeck Lightning Crafter, which serves as my 8th removal.

[Humphrey]

So I will post my current list too. Not sure about the Gempalm yet, hardly missed one. Maybe Ill cut one Chieftain for some tests.

// Lands
3 [B] Badlands
2 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
6 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [6E] Swamp (3)
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter

// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [MOR] Earwig Squad

[all is dust]

What do you think about Earwig Squad? I think it's sick and worth playing main.Or am I wrong?

[jin]

I'm ignoring the best case scenario which is having a Aether Vial into play, its the worst case scenarios I'm more interested in.

1. If you're playing against Zoo you will not be attacking anyway because you are the control player. You have to 'sacrifice' a lot of resources (goblins) playing vs Zoo. Wether it be Chieftain of Warchief or any Goblin, you need them to block until you can run them over with Ringleaders generated card advantage.
When it is time to attack (late game and with enough mana to play stuff) I want to put as much pressure in as possible. A Siege-Gang and Chieftain do that better than Siege Gang and Warchief.

Playing around Daze is worse than running into it if those are the only choices. But it all depends on the cards in hand. It's not that I go turn 3 Chieftain at all costs. If I have the possibility to play a card that that costs two mana (Piley or War Marshal) I'll do that and play Chieftain on turn 4 so I wont be Dazed either. But sometimes it is necessary to have a card Dazed so you're able to push other cards through.

I understand that I will miss out on an occasional Warchief, Piledriver play on turn 4 but I willing to take that (small) risk in favor of more consistency.

2. I don't get what you mean by 'doesn't have to be removed until the attacking turn.' In my opinion the tempo gain of warchief is only relevant in mid and lategame when there's enough mana available to make use of warchief. A lot of times we're busy doing other stuff early game anyway like using Rishadan Port. That's why I only need Warchief from midgame onwards and thus I'm running only two.

3. I'm not advocating to replace Warchief. I believe in a peaceful coexistence between the two. I want to increase the chance on having more haste in the deck. But both lords fulfill a different role at different stages during the game (the ones I explained) and with both lords I simply have more options. But like I said I might go for 3/3 Warchief / Chieftain configuration. But only as soon as I have the feeling I lose out too often by running only 2 Warchiefs.

4. So if the situation permits you to play Chieftain on turn 3 you rather play another War Marshal and do an attack for 1 damage than 6 damage? Or you rather pay the upkeep cost of a War Marshal and do 2 damage on turn 3 than 6 damage? Why?

1. First off, I am well aware of the strategy behind fighting zoo. With that said, I think your seige-gang/warchief vs seige-gang/chieftain is irrevlavent since seige-gang with any goblin applies pressure. You simply mean that 2/2 goblin tokens are more scary than 1/1 goblin tokens but for what? I mean my 1/1 can block as many of those 3/3 cats as your 2/2's can. You are really adding nothing to the argument except for the fact that your 2/2's might do more damage which is pointless outside of the alpha turn. Outside of the alpha turn, I can still block and chuck with seige-gang. Not only that, I'm also more willing to since my goblins are only 1/1.

In this zoo vs goblin scenario war chief is always more threatening than chieftain precisely because of your reasoning. We ARE the CONTROL player needing card advantage and warchief helps with this better than chieftain since warchief makes it cost less while chieftain only gives you the false comfort of "bigger" creatures.

I don't see how more warchiefs is less consistant.. sorry.

There is never a play where I feel that walking into a daze was a smart thing. Goblins is about tempo and seriously.. walking into daze? Thats tempo loss. Is your argument to say that I should walk into a daze so my opponent has less countermagic because that is ridiculous. If you play around daze, that is already like he has less countermagic.

2. How can you not understand this point? Chieftain only gives +1/+1 when compared to warchief. That +1/+1 is irrelavent unless you are attacking. Don't tell me that +1/+1 is necessary for blocking because I can't think of any 1/1 that'll attack into goblins and I can't think of any 2/2 that I HAVE to block and kill. Anything bigger would just be chumped the same way. Warchief of the other hand makes everything cost less which is a huge tempo gain in a long drawn out game. We push for late game, that's what goblin does. Worst case scenario right? This is it. Warchief is your last tempo advantage when Lackey and vial are dead.

3. Oh.., oh no. Make no mistake about it. I'm not saying Chieftain is bad or that he shouldn't be in the deck all together. I just don't agree with your initial argument of why you have chieftain over warchief. I myself played a 4/2 and then a 4/4 split between the two Chiefs. I think chieftain is great even without war marshal. I just don't think the BEST play is turn 2 warmarshal followed by a turn 3 Chieftain.

4. That all depends on what deck I'm playing against. If it is a free path like you describe, I would rather play warchief turn 3 and swing for 4 so that next turn I can drop any 1cmc or 2cmc goblin, goblin matron for goblin piledriver and kill my opponent as opposed to drop chieftain turn 3 and swing for 6 and then next turn hope for the best for double piledriver or double war marshal. I can tutor out my kill condition, you cannot; so I don't know why you are talking about inconsistancies, because I think warchief and matron make a pretty consistant pairing.

[Humphrey]

What do you think about Earwig Squad? I think it's sick and worth playing main.Or am I wrong?

It can be nice on 2nd turn to lackey him in, because of its body, but thats not what he is supposed to do. To really affect opponents plan, it is much to slow. I just run him once in the sb because he is nice to counter opponents sb plans midgame.


About the Warchief vs Chieftain debate. I first cut a Warchief, too. But he is superior to Chieftain thats for sure after testing. You always want a Warchief ingame to make sick turns possible. Matron on Pile for 3 and stuff

[GoboLord]

1. First off, I am well aware of the strategy behind fighting zoo. With that said, I think your seige-gang/warchief vs seige-gang/chieftain is irrevlavent since seige-gang with any goblin applies pressure. You simply mean that 2/2 goblin tokens are more scary than 1/1 goblin tokens but for what? I mean my 1/1 can block as many of those 3/3 cats as your 2/2's can. You are really adding nothing to the argument except for the fact that your 2/2's might do more damage which is pointless outside of the alpha turn. Outside of the alpha turn, I can still block and chuck with seige-gang. Not only that, I'm also more willing to since my goblins are only 1/1.

In this zoo vs goblin scenario war chief is always more threatening than chieftain precisely because of your reasoning. We ARE the CONTROL player needing card advantage and warchief helps with this better than chieftain since warchief makes it cost less while chieftain only gives you the false comfort of "bigger" creatures.

I don't see how more warchiefs is less consistant.. sorry.

There is never a play where I feel that walking into a daze was a smart thing. Goblins is about tempo and seriously.. walking into daze? Thats tempo loss. Is your argument to say that I should walk into a daze so my opponent has less countermagic because that is ridiculous. If you play around daze, that is already like he has less countermagic.

Hmm I dont agree with that part.

#1
SGC + Warchief: You can use one token to block one cat, true. As a result you lose one token.
SGC + Chieftain: You can use two tokens to block one cat. As a result you lose one token and he loses his cat.
The risky thing about this is, that he might burn you Chieftain, wich leaves you with the loss of 2 tokens instead of just one. But this sureley is situational, I don't think there is an overall answer.

#2
Running into Daze in early turns on purpose is a way to slow down your opponent! He will suffer much more from this loss of tempo than you do, cause he "misses" a land drop. The same thing is true for Path to exile in early turns: Your opponent donates you a land drop, which might help to jump over the weak cc2 slot and bring in Matron/Warchief t2 or even Ringleader t3. I think it takes more than one early daze or even FoW to slow Goblins down. I dont want to see my t1-Lackey being countered, but often times they have to either bounce a land or pitch a valuable card for FoW (and trade 2:1).

[Nelis]

1. First off, I am well aware of the strategy behind fighting zoo. With that said, I think your seige-gang/warchief vs seige-gang/chieftain is irrevlavent since seige-gang with any goblin applies pressure. You simply mean that 2/2 goblin tokens are more scary than 1/1 goblin tokens but for what? I mean my 1/1 can block as many of those 3/3 cats as your 2/2's can. You are really adding nothing to the argument except for the fact that your 2/2's might do more damage which is pointless outside of the alpha turn. Outside of the alpha turn, I can still block and chuck with seige-gang. Not only that, I'm also more willing to since my goblins are only 1/1.

In this zoo vs goblin scenario war chief is always more threatening than chieftain precisely because of your reasoning. We ARE the CONTROL player needing card advantage and warchief helps with this better than chieftain since warchief makes it cost less while chieftain only gives you the false comfort of "bigger" creatures.

I don't see how more warchiefs is less consistant.. sorry.

There is never a play where I feel that walking into a daze was a smart thing. Goblins is about tempo and seriously.. walking into daze? Thats tempo loss. Is your argument to say that I should walk into a daze so my opponent has less countermagic because that is ridiculous. If you play around daze, that is already like he has less countermagic.

2. How can you not understand this point? Chieftain only gives +1/+1 when compared to warchief. That +1/+1 is irrelavent unless you are attacking. Don't tell me that +1/+1 is necessary for blocking because I can't think of any 1/1 that'll attack into goblins and I can't think of any 2/2 that I HAVE to block and kill. Anything bigger would just be chumped the same way. Warchief of the other hand makes everything cost less which is a huge tempo gain in a long drawn out game. We push for late game, that's what goblin does. Worst case scenario right? This is it. Warchief is your last tempo advantage when Lackey and vial are dead.

3. Oh.., oh no. Make no mistake about it. I'm not saying Chieftain is bad or that he shouldn't be in the deck all together. I just don't agree with your initial argument of why you have chieftain over warchief. I myself played a 4/2 and then a 4/4 split between the two Chiefs. I think chieftain is great even without war marshal. I just don't think the BEST play is turn 2 warmarshal followed by a turn 3 Chieftain.

4. That all depends on what deck I'm playing against. If it is a free path like you describe, I would rather play warchief turn 3 and swing for 4 so that next turn I can drop any 1cmc or 2cmc goblin, goblin matron for goblin piledriver and kill my opponent as opposed to drop chieftain turn 3 and swing for 6 and then next turn hope for the best for double piledriver or double war marshal. I can tutor out my kill condition, you cannot; so I don't know why you are talking about inconsistancies, because I think warchief and matron make a pretty consistant pairing.

1.If that's your argument let me ease your mind. It's not that I don't intend to block because my creatures happen to be 2/2. And them being 2/2 are absolutely not irrelevant, see my point 2.

You might be fooled into thinking I said that the deck is less inconsistent because I only run 2 Warchiefs and not 4. I was implying that running Chieftains make it more consistent than running Warchiefs only. That's different than saying more Warchiefs make the deck less consistent.

Playing around Daze can be tempo loss in certain situations. Look at this:

Let's say you have a only have a warchief and a ringleader in your hand and the rest is land and its turn 3.
You wouldn't play Warchief turn 3 because it could be dazed. So you wait a turn. That's 2 less damage if your opponent doesn't have a daze.
So on turn 4 you play Warchief because you expect an Daze.
On turn 5 you're ready to play Ringleader. (if you draw a piledriver of your Ringleader you wouldn't play it if I go by your reasoning)
So you have done 4 damage in total in 3 turns.

I play the warchief on turn 3. It isn't countered. Thats 2 damage done a turn earlier.
On turn 4 there's a very small chance that he's drawn a Daze but its not likely. Now I know I can play a ringleader draw some cards.
That's 4 damage done in 2 turns.

If my opponent has a Daze there's still benefits from having my creature Dazed:
If my opponent Dazes then I know he probably doesn't have one the following turn.
So I have actually more information than before. This means I can 'savely' play my Ringleader next turn.
I might've lost my creature but he's behind on landdrops (almost never a good thing for control)

If he doesn't have a Daze then there's benefits too:
I have done more damage if he doesn't have a Daze. Additional benefit is that I put pressure on my opponent which increases the chance of him making mistakes.
I have drawn goblins of my Ringleader 2 turns earlier. And I can still apply pressure of those drawn goblins the following turn.
If the Ringleader only hits lands than they are gone on my next draw while you would definitely be drawing lands 2 turns in a row.

You might gain tempo a few turns later if your Warchief sticks but you can never be sure of that because you've also given your opponent more outs. And you've put less pressure on your opponent.

2. Even in blocking vs Zoo 2/2's are better than 1/1's. What if you're attacked by a Cat and a Pridemage. You lose 2 1/1's and your opponent keeps his creatures. I can kill their Pridemage in the progress. Should my opponent have a burn spell for my Chieftain is stil not relevant because it would be the same situation if it would be a Warchief. I lose my Chieftain, you lose your Warchief, we both lose the other two blocking goblins.

But I also can block his Cat dead with two 2/2's if my opponent leaves his Pridemage behind and wants to attack with his cat only. (If he doesn't have burn mana open I'd definitely do that, if he does than probably not)

Again, my philosophy is that I rather have Chieftains early turns (for the reasons above) and that it is my opinion that a Warchief isn't needed until later on. That's why I run only two, I don't need them earlier.

3. Let me rephrase it a wee bit: I think a turn 2 Warmarshal is better followed by a Chieftain than a Warchief. (That doesn't mean I will always do so, it depends on the situation). Like I said before I might go for a 3/3 configuration in the future.

4. It's clear that we just have different philosophies about the early turns. I intend to do the same things you do with your Warchief but just not the first turns. I do those things after the first few turns when I've added pressure with War Marshals and Chieftain. Let my opponent deal with that first.

[jin]

Hmm I dont agree with that part.

#1
SGC + Warchief: You can use one token to block one cat, true. As a result you lose one token.
SGC + Chieftain: You can use two tokens to block one cat. As a result you lose one token and he loses his cat.
The risky thing about this is, that he might burn you Chieftain, wich leaves you with the loss of 2 tokens instead of just one. But this sureley is situational, I don't think there is an overall answer.

#2
Running into Daze in early turns on purpose is a way to slow down your opponent! He will suffer much more from this loss of tempo than you do, cause he "misses" a land drop. The same thing is true for Path to exile in early turns: Your opponent donates you a land drop, which might help to jump over the weak cc2 slot and bring in Matron/Warchief t2 or even Ringleader t3. I think it takes more than one early daze or even FoW to slow Goblins down. I dont want to see my t1-Lackey being countered, but often times they have to either bounce a land or pitch a valuable card for FoW (and trade 2:1).

1. when fighting zoo, always expect removal. you just lost both tokens

2. yeah sure you get a land and "gain" a turn but you also lose your third turn so you broke even. You also lost a card that was valuable where as they lost a conditional counter spell which, by playing into it, you fulfilled.


1.If that's your argument let me ease your mind. It's not that I don't intend to block because my creatures happen to be 2/2. And them being 2/2 are absolutely not irrelevant, see my point 2.

You might be fooled into thinking I said that the deck is less inconsistent because I only run 2 Warchiefs and not 4. I was implying that running Chieftains make it more consistent than running Warchiefs only. That's different than saying more Warchiefs make the deck less consistent.

Playing around Daze can be tempo loss in certain situations. Look at this:

Let's say you have a only have a warchief and a ringleader in your hand and the rest is land and its turn 3.
You wouldn't play Warchief turn 3 because it could be dazed. So you wait a turn. That's 2 less damage if your opponent doesn't have a daze.
So on turn 4 you play Warchief because you expect an Daze.
On turn 5 you're ready to play Ringleader. (if you draw a piledriver of your Ringleader you wouldn't play it if I go by your reasoning)
So you have done 4 damage in total in 3 turns.

I play the warchief on turn 3. It isn't countered. Thats 2 damage done a turn earlier.
On turn 4 there's a very small chance that he's drawn a Daze but its not likely. Now I know I can play a ringleader draw some cards.
That's 4 damage done in 2 turns.

If my opponent has a Daze there's still benefits from having my creature Dazed:
If my opponent Dazes then I know he probably doesn't have one the following turn.
So I have actually more information than before. This means I can 'savely' play my Ringleader next turn.
I might've lost my creature but he's behind on landdrops (almost never a good thing for control)

If he doesn't have a Daze then there's benefits too:
I have done more damage if he doesn't have a Daze. Additional benefit is that I put pressure on my opponent which increases the chance of him making mistakes.
I have drawn goblins of my Ringleader 2 turns earlier. And I can still apply pressure of those drawn goblins the following turn.
If the Ringleader only hits lands than they are gone on my next draw while you would definitely be drawing lands 2 turns in a row.

You might gain tempo a few turns later if your Warchief sticks but you can never be sure of that because you've also given your opponent more outs. And you've put less pressure on your opponent.

2. Even in blocking vs Zoo 2/2's are better than 1/1's. What if you're attacked by a Cat and a Pridemage. You lose 2 1/1's and your opponent keeps his creatures. I can kill their Pridemage in the progress. Should my opponent have a burn spell for my Chieftain is stil not relevant because it would be the same situation if it would be a Warchief. I lose my Chieftain, you lose your Warchief, we both lose the other two blocking goblins.

But I also can block his Cat dead with two 2/2's if my opponent leaves his Pridemage behind and wants to attack with his cat only. (If he doesn't have burn mana open I'd definitely do that, if he does than probably not)

Again, my philosophy is that I rather have Chieftains early turns (for the reasons above) and that it is my opinion that a Warchief isn't needed until later on. That's why I run only two, I don't need them earlier.

3. Let me rephrase it a wee bit: I think a turn 2 Warmarshal is better followed by a Chieftain than a Warchief. (That doesn't mean I will always do so, it depends on the situation). Like I said before I might go for a 3/3 configuration in the future.

4. It's clear that we just have different philosophies about the early turns. I intend to do the same things you do with your Warchief but just not the first turns. I do those things after the first few turns when I've added pressure with War Marshals and Chieftain. Let my opponent deal with that first.

1. I'm sorry, your scenario doesn't really make sense to me since its all damage based and that is all board dependant and removal dependant. I see that you are maximizing on damage outpout considering if there are no blockers but that doesn't happen in legacy. If there was a free lane, i'd drop all of my goblins too, but tempo isn't only about damage but about mana input, turn input and overall board position and against a deck packing daze, I think my board position is stronger if I have more goblins that stick rather than have less.

I think the beauty of goblins is, with any goblin and warchief and mana, we can apply pressure through the ability to explode, kinda like combo

EDITED NOTE: One more thing, a player that knows how to fight goblins and knows that you are walking into daze (sorry, that's a very strong player but it haappens) will know to let the chief go.. plow the chief.. and let you walk into the daze next turn (turn 4)

2. I don't think a zoo player will walk their pridemage into your 2/2 tokens unless they have removal, so in that scenario, I'm sure your chief and my chief would have both died. A decent zoo player would have attacked with only the 4/4 nacatl. How will you block it then? chump or gang?

3. I understand that. Your configuration makes sense if it is for the purpose of getting warchiefs later in the game. It is interesting in that sense.

4. Yeah, apparently you apply pressure with damage threats where as I apply pressure with sheer number of goblins. I think this is largely due to the fact that most of my opponents know how to fight goblins so they are simply scared of goblins where as your strategy might just scary everyone.

[Hanni]

To those discussing Warchief vs Chieftan... why not just run 4 of each? That's what I do.

[raudo]

Hmm.. I'm not sure if 12x 3cc creatures (plus Incinerators) is a bit too much for the curve. Currently I run 4 Warchief and 2 Chieftain.

[jin]

To those discussing Warchief vs Chieftan... why not just run 4 of each? That's what I do.

done that been there.
just discussing advantages.

if you had a choice to cast one or the other.. which one would you choose?

[lotriderm]

done that been there.
just discussing advantages.

if you had a choice to cast one or the other.. which one would you choose?

The choice always depends on the board and the game state at that time since that will greatly affect which one I would drop. But in terms of in a vacuum, I will always drop Warchief first since the ability of "cheating" goblins into play is why goblins was/is a strong deck.

[Nelis]

2. yeah sure you get a land and "gain" a turn but you also lose your third turn so you broke even. You also lost a card that was valuable where as they lost a conditional counter spell which, by playing into it, you fulfilled.

1. I'm sorry, your scenario doesn't really make sense to me since its all damage based and that is all board dependant and removal dependant. I see that you are maximizing on damage outpout considering if there are no blockers but that doesn't happen in legacy. If there was a free lane, i'd drop all of my goblins too, but tempo isn't only about damage but about mana input, turn input and overall board position and against a deck packing daze, I think my board position is stronger if I have more goblins that stick rather than have less.

I think the beauty of goblins is, with any goblin and warchief and mana, we can apply pressure through the ability to explode, kinda like combo

EDITED NOTE: One more thing, a player that knows how to fight goblins and knows that you are walking into daze (sorry, that's a very strong player but it haappens) will know to let the chief go.. plow the chief.. and let you walk into the daze next turn (turn 4)

2. I don't think a zoo player will walk their pridemage into your 2/2 tokens unless they have removal, so in that scenario, I'm sure your chief and my chief would have both died. A decent zoo player would have attacked with only the 4/4 nacatl. How will you block it then? chump or gang?

3. I understand that. Your configuration makes sense if it is for the purpose of getting warchiefs later in the game. It is interesting in that sense.

4. Yeah, apparently you apply pressure with damage threats where as I apply pressure with sheer number of goblins. I think this is largely due to the fact that most of my opponents know how to fight goblins so they are simply scared of goblins where as your strategy might just scary everyone.

2./1. That's where we differ in opinion. Personally I think you underestimate the power of applying pressure and the land drop they're behind. The more room (turns) you give the control player the worse it is for you.

On the Edited Note: Don't forget that your opponent is in the dark about your hand. He doesn't know what I have in hand so the question is if he's willing to take that risk. Basically this is something we can argue about all day long. We can both think of enough situations where we or our opponent can make the wrong and/or right play.

I do think you're too scared about what the opponent might have in hand. For every solution he might have in hand he also might not have a solution in hand. And because of the explosiveness of our deck we can still punish our opponent at any stage of the game. I mean even if Chieftain is plowed and Ringleader is Dazed we play enough threats to compensate.

For me there would be one very strong reason not to play into Daze and that's if I have a tricky hand. But I should've mulliganed that one.

But to clarify once more I wont run into Daze if it isn't necessary. If I have a hand of say Piledriver, Warchief and Ringleader then I will play my Piledriver on turn 3, Warchief on turn 4 and Ringleader on turn 5. I'm not going to purposely let my Warchief be Dazed. But if I only had a Warchief and Ringleader in hand for instance then I would definitely play the Warchief on turn 3, risking it being Dazed. Because if they haven't Dazed then the next turn I can play Ringleader without any fear of Daze (even if they have draw one). Should the Ringleader flip a Piledriver then I would play it too. But I wonder what you would do?

2. I wouldn't be too sure about that (I play zoo a lot myself), as they still need to get their their damage in. Leaving us with more goblins is not a good situation for Zoo either. But if they only attack with Nacatl I'll chump because I need to get to the mid to late game ifIi want to beat Zoo.

3. Its not that I have less explosiveness with my configuration, I can still do all those explosiveness things. But in my experience that explosiveness happens not in early game but in mid to late game anyway. That's why I constructed my deck the way it is.

4. I think in general if we sum it up I sacrifice a bit of tempo loss (by running less Warchiefs) in early game for more applied pressure in the early game. But the early pressure I apply just as well needs to be answered by my opponent. I don't think both strategies differ in that aspect.


The choice always depends on the board and the game state at that time since that will greatly affect which one I would drop. But in terms of in a vacuum, I will always drop Warchief first since the ability of "cheating" goblins into play is why goblins was/is a strong deck.

But in a situation where your opponent might have a Daze, what would you do?

1. Play Warchief on turn 3 and Chieftain turn 4
2. Play Chieftain on turn 3 and Warchief turn 4
3. Wait a turn and play Warchief on turn 4 and Chieftain on turn 5
3. Wait a turn and play Chieftian on turn 4 and Warchief on turn 5

[GoboLord]

But in a situation where your opponent might have a Daze, what would you do?

1. Play Warchief on turn 3 and Chieftain turn 4
2. Play Chieftain on turn 3 and Warchief turn 4
3. Wait a turn and play Warchief on turn 4 and Chieftain on turn 5
4. Wait a turn and play Chieftian on turn 4 and Warchief on turn 5

In turn 3 expecting Daze, I would play around Daze. The answer depends on wether you expect removal or not. I'd rather see my Chieftain "Sworded" than my Warchief. Thefore:

Expecting removal: option 4
Expecting none: option 3

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to discuss a different topic:
we talked about what to bring in against what decks. We talked about flexible/effective SB cards, we talked wether to improve 50/50 MUs or only the bad one. This was all about sideboarding. So far we didnt talk about what to board out after G1. I feel there are cards in MD you NEVER board out while others are thrown out like every match. Here is what I think:

Never board out:
- Lands
- Lackey
- Vial
- Matron
- Piledriver
- Warchief

Possible cards to board out:
- 1 Ringleader (depending on how many non-Goblins you bring in)
- 1 SGC
- up to 3 Chieftain (I only run 3)
- 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
- either only Stingscourger (against Vial-Decks) or all removal (against Combo)


I most often kick out Chieftain. What do you think?

[ScatmanX]

@ Daze: I'd sacrifice Chieftein turn 3. I don't like fearing Daze the hole game. What happens 3 turns later, when you have 5 lands and a Siege-Gang? You wait more?

@SB:
Piledriver is bad in a lot of MU's. I run 4, and usually board out 3-4 agains't Zoo and in the mirror.
There are people that board out Lackey on the draw against removal heavy decks. Thats an option, but I don't like it.
Depending on the MU I board out a number of Ringleaders. Maybe even 4 (combo or Reanimator)

[Nelis]

In turn 3 expecting Daze, I would play around Daze. The answer depends on wether you expect removal or not. I'd rather see my Chieftain "Sworded" than my Warchief. Thefore:

Expecting removal: option 4
Expecting none: option 3


Interesting. I would play the Chieftain on turn 3 if I expect no removal. Its not said that they have a Daze and if they don't then its basically in the pocket. With goblins I wouldn't be too worried about not being able to put pressure on the board even if its Dazed.

I'm not so sure what I would do if I did expect removal, to be honest. I think I still would play chieftain on turn 3.



I want to discuss a different topic:
we talked about what to bring in against what decks. We talked about flexible/effective SB cards, we talked wether to improve 50/50 MUs or only the bad one. This was all about sideboarding. So far we didnt talk about what to board out after G1. I feel there are cards in MD you NEVER board out while others are thrown out like every match. Here is what I think:

Never board out:
- Lands
- Lackey
- Vial
- Matron
- Piledriver
- Warchief

Possible cards to board out:
- 1 Ringleader (depending on how many non-Goblins you bring in)
- 1 SGC
- up to 3 Chieftain (I only run 3)
- 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
- either only Stingscourger (against Vial-Decks) or all removal (against Combo)

I most often kick out Chieftain. What do you think?

Candidates:
Wort (in my Rb list I don't play her btw)
Chieftain
Possibly a Siege-Gang

Against certain match ups you could side out Vial. I think I would if I was playing against Dredge because it much more important to play either hate or lackey on turn one.

[Neuad]

Here's my current decklist that I'm running and really digging. Just added in sharpshooter taking out a Warren Instigator.

// Lands
3 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [U] Taiga
5 [BRB] Mountain (7)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void


SB Leylines over more conventional GY hate is because my meta runs a couple loam based decks, and no reanimator/dredge that I've seen yet. I'd rather start with a leyline against aggro loam and hopefully slow them down a turn or 2, which will give me the edge I need to explode.

And it will still slow Reanimator down.


Edit - Now I've been thinking about goblins and their lack of answers for damn near anything. . .what do you guys think of a wishboard + burning wishes SB?

4 Wishes
4 Leylines (GY hate is needed)
7 wish targets such as

Shattering Spree
Unearth
Reverent Silence
Shattering Spree
Chainer's Edict
Another Weirding or 2

I don't know what else but I'm just spit balling.

This would also stabalize a RBg manabase a bit, as we could take out all but 1 Taiga to fetch for when we want to Reverent Silence, and add in basic mountains.


Just thoughts I've been having, I'm sure its been talked about but hey whats the harm in bringing it up again

[Ozymandias]

If you're going to run wishes, you should really run them maindeck. There are dozens of good targets from Shattering Spree to Ruination to Patriarch's Bidding, but it's not really meshy with the main thrust of the deck.

[lotriderm]

But in a situation where your opponent might have a Daze, what would you do?

1. Play Warchief on turn 3 and Chieftain turn 4
2. Play Chieftain on turn 3 and Warchief turn 4
3. Wait a turn and play Warchief on turn 4 and Chieftain on turn 5
3. Wait a turn and play Chieftian on turn 4 and Warchief on turn 5



In turn 3 expecting Daze, I would play around Daze. The answer depends on wether you expect removal or not. I'd rather see my Chieftain "Sworded" than my Warchief. Thefore:

Expecting removal: option 4
Expecting none: option 3



Exactly what GoboLord said.

@ Sideboard

Zoo: I usually take out a couple Piledrivers. I like to leave my Lackeys to make deal with it either via blockers or removal. I try to make them burn removal of stuff like so hopefully my Warchiefs could stay alive. Also, a Path to Exile on my Lackey on turn is pretty awesome for me.

Countertop: I usually don't board in anything against them, so it really depends on what they going to bring in for game2 and I'll adjust game 3. But Piledrivers usually stay in to block those damn Rhox War Monks.

Reanimator/Combo: I take out out all my Ringleaders and removal for the appropiate hate.

Merfolk: I bring in Sharpshooter because an early Kira blanks all my removal.

New Horizon: Probably take out 2 Piledrivers, 1 Incinerator (I run 4 maindeck)

So, most of the time I'm usually taking out 2 Piledrivers out unless I either need to race (such as combo) or they have blue creatures.

[Nelis]

In turn 3 expecting Daze, I would play around Daze. The answer depends on wether you expect removal or not. I'd rather see my Chieftain "Sworded" than my Warchief. Thefore:

Expecting removal: option 4
Expecting none: option 3




But in a situation where your opponent might have a Daze, what would you do?

1. Play Warchief on turn 3 and Chieftain turn 4
2. Play Chieftain on turn 3 and Warchief turn 4
3. Wait a turn and play Warchief on turn 4 and Chieftain on turn 5
3. Wait a turn and play Chieftian on turn 4 and Warchief on turn 5


Exactly what GoboLord said.

I'm not sure if you guys interpreted my 'expecting daze' the way I meant it. I mean that you are not sure the opponent has a Daze in hand but he might've. Still the same answer?

@ Scatman: I would sacrifice Chieftain too on turn 3.

On Siege Gang. That's a question I find hard to answer without knowing more about the board situation and if Daze has already been played before. In general I would say I'll play it on turn 5.

[GoboLord]

I'm not sure if you guys interpreted my 'expecting daze' the way I meant it. I mean that you are not sure the opponent has a Daze in hand but he might've. Still the same answer?


Well, you wrote that we think the opponent "might have" Daze. I would take a lot of other things into consideraion before I decide wether or not to expect Daze:

- if he already played 2 Daze until turn 3 I would risk it.
- in G2 some decks board out daze to bring in Blue Elemental Blast, therefor I wouldn't play around it
- if he didnt play any Daze so far I would play around it.
- if he played Path to Exile (and we missed a landdrop-so we have 3 lands in t3) he might have decided not to Daze me, cause he wouldnt play PtE if he wants to Daze me (since he donates us an extra mana for Daze)
- if he played Ponder last turn and didn't shuffle he might have it
- if he has on blue land open to play Brainstorm in response, he might have or at least find Daze

[Gekoratel]

Hi I've began testing Goblins again after not playing it for quite so time, when Future Sight came out, and was looking on some tips on the Zoo matchup and to see if people thought some of my sideboarding was bad. Any help is appreciated. I'm seeing a lot of lists without Mogg War Marshall but I don't see how Goblins can realistically expect to beat Zoo without that card. For me the most important cards in the matchup are Vial, Wierding, and War Marshall. Hands that don't contain some combination of these cards generally end up getting rolled over. One nice benefit on the matchup is that if your boarding 5-6 cards for the MU then it gets much better post-board as Zoo generally has 0-2 cards that are coming in. I also haven't been impressed with Goblin Chieftain but I haven't played a ton of games with the card.

4 Mountain
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Warren Weirding
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Open Slot that I haven't decided on yet

Zoo
-3 Goblin Piledriver -3 Goblin Lackey
+3 Pyrokinesis +3 Perish

Thoter CB
-3 Warren Wierding -3 Gempalm Incinerator
+2 Leyline of the Void +3 Krosan Grip +1 Tin Street Hooligan

Merfolk //Wierding is terrible vs. Mutavault
-3 Warren Wierding
+3 Pyrokinesis

New Horizons
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
+3 Perish

NO CB //not sure how to board here
-3 Mogg War Marshall -2 Siege Gang Commander
+2 Krosan Grip +3 Perish

Mirror
-3 Warren Weirding -2 Piledriver
+3 Pyrokinesis +1 Tin Street +1 Krosan Grip

Reanimator //how bad is Gempalm in this matchup?
-2 Gempalm Incinerator -1 Mogg War Marshall
+4 Leyline of the Void

Thanks again.

[Skub]

I am going to start playing goblins. Where can I find some articles about goblins or which articles do you suggest to read?

[FoulQ]

@ Gekoratel: Well then welcome back to goblins.

1. Thopter CB, boarding in 2 leylines? Seems a little crazy to me.
2. Merfolk, Weirding isn't that bad against merfolk, and in fact mutavault is the bitch we want dead, but it's still probably the best thing to board out against most versions.
3. NO CB, you don't need krosan grip against most versions in my opinion. And you DEFINITELY want at least one SGC against counterbalance decks, because it gives you a late game punch to try and match theirs. Otherwise you will have no ace up your sleeve if the game stalls out (which it does often in this matchup, maybe moreso the non-NO versions, but it does regardless). It highly depends on the version of the deck for boarding so I don't think having premade notes works here. For ex, say they play noble heirarch. How important is it to their gameplan? Are there 3cc-4cc cards gamebreaking againts goblins? What SB cards do they have for goblins, and how important is it for them to have access to all their colors against you, and how dedicated are you to using your wastelands? These could all be factors in playing gempalm. And then you would have to analyze each and every creature and how important gempalm would be. It's a hard matchup to board for, for sure, though I would board out MWM pretty much every time. So I don't think it is as simple as a few numbers.
4. Mirror, I don't think you should board in krosan grip. It's so tight in the aggro race that drawing that could screw you. I'd rather have the 3rd piledriver I think.

@ Skub, I don't think you are going to have much luck finding good goblins articles, especially up-to-date ones. Pretty much every goblin article I've read is bad and barely scratches the surface. Most of them come off as "goblins can't compete" (might be valid but doesn't help you learn the deck) or "goblins isn't all about turning sideways" (no crap everyone knows that sherlock).

[Gekoratel]

1. Thopter CB, boarding in 2 leylines? Seems a little crazy to me.
I'm boarding in Leyline because it stops the Thopter/Sword combo of the deck, many lists are boarding additional copies of these cards so they are seen more frequently. The main reason I'm boarding in the 2 Leylines is because the alternatives of Gempalm or Wierding is just terrible as they have 0 targets for the card. Two leylines means you will almost never have 2 in your opening hand and its a reasonable spell to drop after they've spent resources tutoring for one of the combo pieces. I realize that Thopter/Sword is their plan B after dropping Moat/Ensnaring Bridge/Humility but it will be part of their plan at some point and I don't have anything else in the board for that MU.


2. Merfolk, Weirding isn't that bad against merfolk, and in fact mutavault is the bitch we want dead, but it's still probably the best thing to board out against most versions.
I just assumed I wouldn't want to give them 2 Goblin tokens for them losing 1 land, and I also can't think of anything else in the deck that wants to come out except maybe Siege Gang since its hard to cast through Waste/Stifle not that it matters much since this is an ez MU.

@NOCB - I really wasn't sure about Krosan Grip since CB isn't that bad for you between Vial and 3-4cc threats but I've seen that CB lists have started running more cards like Rhox War Monk and Knight of Reliquary so thought that I may want Grip. I thought Gempalm would be fine here so I could kill RWM and other small creatures making Wierding stronger.

@Mirror - I haven't played this MU in awhile but it was all about Vial advantage before especially after board where Pyrokinesis means aggressive starts aren't going to be as viable. This means the game will go long and mana disruption from Waste/Port is quite relevant so if one guy has Vial and the other doesn't then they are heavily favored.

Thanks for the tips, anything about Zoo would be cool also.

[freakish777]

Thanks for the tips, anything about Zoo would be cool also.

Hey Jeff, I think a lot of Goblins players are playing Stingscourger over War Marshal, but you're definitely right that War Marshal helps against Zoo, where as Stingscourger helps you push damage through against blue decks that rely on Goyf/RWM blocking.

I'm pretty sure pre-board against Zoo you're looking for Incinerator to kill anything as quickly as possible (get Lackey/Driver down and Incinerator their Lavamancer/Lynx immediately, even if it means taking risks that they could Bolt/Path your guy in response) so you can get as many land drops on the highest life total as possible. This means you're not trying to Waste/Port them (if anything you want them to draw as many lands as possible). Zoo obviously doesn't have a card advantage engine on the same level as Goblins, so you're just looking to let them play their cards out and maintain as high a life total as possible for trying to cut their guys down where possible.

I think boarding out Goblin Lackey against Zoo is incorrect. Not because you're ever going to attack with him, but because he's the only 1 drop Goblin you're playing. If I were on the play post board against Zoo, I'd much rather have Goblin Lackey in my opening hand than Perish. Playing him forces your opponent to play their Lightning Bolt instead of their creature. If they don't you're threatening to blow them out, so you're willing trading your 1 casting cost creature with their Lightning Bolt (or better yet Path) to try and get as many turns without any real action between the decks so you can take advantage of the top end of your curve. If they play Wild Nacatl instead of a removal spell, there's still the chance to blow them out without Incinerator, either with Weirding or Wasteland (Nacatl goes to 1/1 and has to block, which you're more than happy with, especially if you have a Vial, for reference, this is about the only time I would Wasteland against Zoo in this match up is to trade a Lackey with a Nacatl). On the draw post board, I'd also rather have more 1 drops than 3cc "Wraths" that still doesn't take out the most important creature (Lavamancer) of theirs. Perish is good, don't get me wrong, but the whole point is to try and stabalize above 10 life or so, so you're not in danger of getting burned out, which I'm not sure you'll be able to do without chump blockers.

[Neuad]

Zoo is almost a gaurenteed loss for goblins. I hate to say it, I'd love it if people found a way around it. . .but its like 90/10 in their favor pre-board and probably 95/5 post, because alot of zoo's run Jitte and Stoneforge SB if not MB. I've seen 1 Jitte/Stoneforge MB with another Jitte and Basilisk Collar SB which is just killer.

Their creatures are bigger and faster. Their burn kills every single one of our goblins.


The one thing I've seen tossed around that I haven't seen tested is King + Patriarchs Bidding SB.

Let them tap down doing whatever, matron for king, king for the win.

[Nelis]

Zoo is almost a gaurenteed loss for goblins. I hate to say it, I'd love it if people found a way around it. . .but its like 90/10 in their favor pre-board and probably 95/5 post, because alot of zoo's run Jitte and Stoneforge SB if not MB. I've seen 1 Jitte/Stoneforge MB with another Jitte and Basilisk Collar SB which is just killer.

I havent played Rb in a while so Im not sure about that match-up.

But Zoo doesn't beat Mono R goblins that easily at all, it's around 60/40 in Zoo's favor.
Jitte is a bitch indeed but there are plenty people who do not run equipment in their zoo builds.

On Lackey: I would definitely keep lackey in too for the reasons mentioned by Freakish 777

[GoboLord]

I havent played Rb in a while so Im not sure about that match-up.

But Zoo doesn't beat Mono R goblins that easily at all, it's around 60/40 in Zoo's favor.
Jitte is a bitch indeed but there are plenty people who do not run equipment in their zoo builds.

On Lackey: I would definitely keep lackey in too for the reasons mentioned by Freakish 777

I totaly agree with Nelis.
I'm playing Rb and I tested this MU a lot with a friend of mine. I'd say it's - as Nelis said - like 60/40 in Zoo's favor. In Rb you have Perish in SB which Mono R doesnt.

@ Neuad:
We already found a way to fight Zoo effectively:
As soon you are realizing you are playing against Zoo, you have to act as a control deck. Kill as much creatures as possible, take only damage that you cant avoid, sacrifice your creatures, wait for Perish. In Later turns they run out of resources and you can beat them with Siege-Gang Comander and Ringleader. I've tested this strategy and it works out in most cases. If your RIngleaders fuck up with you, you cant win that easily, but overall, you have enough meat to feed their Cats.
Most Zoo lists dont run Jitte MD, neither do they run Basilisk Collar and/or Stoneforge Mystic - that's simply not true.
If you say that our MU is around 95/5 in their favor, you simply have to practice this MU more often (or at least once!).

[Neuad]

Well alot around me run equip and I'm extremely unlucky then.

[Gekoratel]

I've been testing this MU quite extensively as I believe Zoo will be the most popular deck at the GP and was getting results between 40-60 and 45-55 against Zoo pre-board but I have been beating it quite handily after board since most lists aren't bringing in any cards. But I also tested against the version boarding in 2 Jitte and it wasn't that big a deal. I can see what everyone is saying about Lackey and the argument makes a lot of sense I will keep him in for now on but if you have to board out an additional 2 cards what would it be?


I'm pretty sure pre-board against Zoo you're looking for Incinerator to kill anything as quickly as possible (get Lackey/Driver down and Incinerator their Lavamancer/Lynx immediately, even if it means taking risks that they could Bolt/Path your guy in response) so you can get as many land drops on the highest life total as possible. This means you're not trying to Waste/Port them (if anything you want them to draw as many lands as possible). Zoo obviously doesn't have a card advantage engine on the same level as Goblins, so you're just looking to let them play their cards out and maintain as high a life total as possible for trying to cut their guys down where possible.While I agree that you want to try and kill their early guys and minimize damage Incinerator doesn't do a great job in this matchup since most lists aren't running Steppe Lynx the only realistic target for Incinerator before the late game is Lavamancer. This is why I like Warren Wierding much more in this matchup. I'd have to imagine that Mono-Red Goblins would have a much harder time than Rb because Wierding is one of the 3 most important cards in the matchup. I think Wasteland can be fine in this matchup but you need an active Vial to try and slow them down with Wastelands. Porting in generally pointless unless you see them miss their 3rd land drop.


I think boarding out Goblin Lackey against Zoo is incorrect. Not because you're ever going to attack with him, but because he's the only 1 drop Goblin you're playing. If I were on the play post board against Zoo, I'd much rather have Goblin Lackey in my opening hand than Perish. Playing him forces your opponent to play their Lightning Bolt instead of their creature. If they don't you're threatening to blow them out, so you're willing trading your 1 casting cost creature with their Lightning Bolt (or better yet Path) to try and get as many turns without any real action between the decks so you can take advantage of the top end of your curve. If they play Wild Nacatl instead of a removal spell, there's still the chance to blow them out without Incinerator, either with Weirding or Wasteland (Nacatl goes to 1/1 and has to block, which you're more than happy with, especially if you have a Vial, for reference, this is about the only time I would Wasteland against Zoo in this match up is to trade a Lackey with a Nacatl). On the draw post board, I'd also rather have more 1 drops than 3cc "Wraths" that still doesn't take out the most important creature (Lavamancer) of theirs. Perish is good, don't get me wrong, but the whole point is to try and stabalize above 10 life or so, so you're not in danger of getting burned out, which I'm not sure you'll be able to do without chump blockers. I see what everyone is saying about Lackey's value now and it probably gets better with Pyrokinesis as you can clear the way for him to get through also. I think your greatly underestimating the strength of Perish though the deck has 14-15 green creatures and those creatures are all the best cards in their deck against you. It's near impossible to kill Goyf/Knight of Reliquary with Gempalm until the very late game where you have already stabalized and dealing 3 to Nactal is also difficult in the early game which you seem to make it sound very easy to do. An opening hand with Mogg War Marshall and Perish can be an ez GG against Zoo. As for the more one drops vs. Perish argument the only other semi-relevant one drop is Mogg Fanatic and he's so bad post M10 rule change I couldn't imagine playing him in the main or board. Perish is a high value card against Zoo, NO Bant, and New Horizons.

[Nelis]

Well alot around me run equip and I'm extremely unlucky then.

I can imagine that you lose a lot against decks that pack Jitte. If it's really the case then maybe you should to put more focus on Jitte hate in your sideboard. You could put in 2 Scrappers for instance just to help you out a bit more. The other option is to play another deck.


While I agree that you want to try and kill their early guys and minimize damage Incinerator doesn't do a great job in this matchup since most lists aren't running Steppe Lynx the only realistic target for Incinerator before the late game is Lavamancer. I'd have to imagine that Mono-Red Goblins would have a much harder time than Rb because Wierding is one of the 3 most important cards in the matchup.


With mono Red the focus is very much on getting in as little damage as possible early game and overwhelm them later on. But Incinerator is still very necessary. It isn't quick to kill a Nacatl in the early turns but I have used Incinerator often enough to kill Lavamancers, Pridemages, Nacatls and even Tarmogoyfs. In my opinion War Marshal is key in this match up. I haven't decided if its needed to mulligan into one but its a fact you need them to survive. You also need Ringleaders to hit goblins.

[Talanos]

Greetings, Sourcers. I want to introduce myself.

My local store is having weekly Legacy tournaments now, and for my first one I took Rb Vial Goblins, losing to Zoo and drawing against Zoo; made top 4, and lost to the Zoo deck I lost to in Swiss.

My meta is pretty diverse and includes Zoo, Landstill, Reanimator, Dredge, Horizons, Faeries, 43lands, Monoblack, Merfolk, and the mirror being among the decks I observed with 22 players in attendance.

I ran: Vial/Lackey/Pile/Matron/Warchief/Ringleader/Gempalm as 4s, 2 commanders/scourgestingers, 3 wierdings, 1 sharpshooter, and 1 chieftain. 23 lands, with 4 wastes, 3 ports, 6 mountains, 7 fetch, and 3 badlands.

I liked the ports, they won me a game against landstill (kept him off his wrath/elspeth) and a game in the mirror where he kept a 2 land no vial hand. In testing with 4, I was sometimes red shy, but I'm still wondering if I should go up to 4 for the control matchups. Thoughts would be appreciated although this might be a topic already discussed to death.

My more pressing question is, if I were to change the deck to improve my Zoo matchup, what would you guys recommend? I realize that this seems to be the current topic of discussion, and I don't want to be redundant, but I figured I would just summarize my thoughts on the matter at the risk of being repetitive or asking for information already provided.

The post history seems to suggest MWM - is that the consensus on the single best card to run? I've also seen some talk of lightning bolt, or just more scourgers. What would you remove from my list to add the anti-zoo element? I'm thinking maybe between the chieftain, the sharpshooter, 1 scourgestinger, 1 gelmpalm, and maybe 1 land. I've seen numerous lists with 22, but sometimes being land shy just sucked in testing so I went in with 23 (and didn't really experience manascrew, although that's hardly conclusive).

My zoo board was 4 perish and 3 pyrokensis, although I'm wondering if it was the wrong call to board in the pyros. I ended up rather goblin shy in game 2 of the semis when I lost. Perhaps perish is enough, and I should just keep the pyros in the side unless I'm up against the mirror or fish?

So anyhow, it seems like Zoo is going to be a powerful force at my store, and I'd like to find a way to make the matchup a bit more even. It would be nice not to have to feel like I have to play another deck, since I just invested a couple hundred bucks to put this together.

As an aside much as I'd like more chieftains (and gator), I have no idea what to cut to include those cards. The core seems so necessary, and cutting the removal seems like it would only hurt the Zoo matchup.

Thanks for any insight ya'll might have.

-Tal

[freakish777]

While I agree that you want to try and kill their early guys and minimize damage Incinerator doesn't do a great job in this matchup since most lists aren't running Steppe Lynx the only realistic target for Incinerator before the late game is Lavamancer. This is why I like Warren Wierding much more in this matchup.

I 100% agree. I'm just saying that your optimal draw basically involves an Incinerator taking out a Lynx/Lavamancer/Pridemage, so that your Weirding actually takes out their big guy. I don't think you'll take out Nacatl very often with Gempalm unless it involves Wasteland making him a 2/2 or 1/1.


I think your greatly underestimating the strength of Perish though the deck has 14-15 green creatures and those creatures are all the best cards in their deck against you.

Not at all. Perish is very good, I just don't think you can afford to let their green creatures deal damage to you in combat while you're waiting around for 3 mana to cast Perish. Having War Marshal + Perish might be game against them, but without War Marshal, you could very well play Perish only to have them burn you out afterwards.

This is a complete guess on my part, but I think I would board out maybe Warchief against Zoo before Lackey to bring in Perish. Warchief is good against decks where you're playing the beatdown, not the control, and if you're chump blocking with him, a 1 mana creature is better. Also, he's the same casting cost as Perish, so you're not losing speed against a beatdown deck (when your creatures needing haste becomes relevant, you should hopefully be able to Matron for 1 at that point).


Also, you maybe should consider Goblin Pyromancer for your last SB slot. Whenever a Goblins players Matrons that guy up and I'm playing a control deck, I always lose that turn.

[jamis]

I started testing out a RU build of this deck and it's been doing fairly well. I was looking for some advice on optimizing it.

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Pestermite
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-gang Commander
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

4 AEther Vial
4 Standstill

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
6 Mountain
1 Island
3 Wasteland
2 Mutavault

The deck splashes blue primarily for Standstill, but also features Kiki-jiki/Pestermite combo. Blue also helps post-board by giving Spell Pierce for combo matches and bounce spells to deal with general hate like Engineered Plague.

[FoulQ]

@ Gekoratel: Ah, your sideboarding makes more sense now. I agree with it pretty much then, I'll get to zoo below. However, I still disagree with boarding in the 1 krosan grip against goblins, you will desperately need that 2G to keep up with your opponent, especially on the draw, and it doesn't really help the overall big picture gameplan in the matchup. Unless they bring in jittes, but that's doubtful.

@ Zoo: I highly recommend NOT boarding out both lackey and warchief in the matchup. Especially lackey, anytime you can force the zoo player to play defense, you have a much better chance of winning. It will buy you turns just like MWM, and is a lightning rod (lol!!!) for removal, which is great for a 1cc critter. Warchief allows for busted plays and I've never boarded out a single one since I started playing. Warchief + Ringleader and Vial + Wasteland make the deck, in my opinion. Boarding out any of these is a really bad idea (except vial sometimes vs combo/dredge).

You really need warchief so that you can catch up to your zoo opponent on the battleground. Otherwise you are too slow.

So that leaves us with: what to board out? For one, you can go down to 1 siege-gang commander. He's good, but we need space, and 5cc can be a lot to ask for. My other target, much less popular for boarding out? Warren weirding. Yes, warren weirding. The fact is, you really don't need 1-3 gempalm, 1-3 stingscourger, 3-4 perish, and 1-4 weirding (and possibly 2-4 pyrokinesis!?!). That's too much removal that will clog up your hand. Postboard I aim for 2-3 gempalm, 2-3 stingscourger, and 3-4 sb removal (either perish or pyrokinesis).

I explained a few pages back why I think boarding out warren weirding in this matchup is correct. I don't remember my exact logic, but basically, weirding doesn't help your board position that much and although it kills a creature, it time walks you. I might try to find it later but for now I'm going to keep it concise.

Vial is by far the best card in this matchup (as usual...), and in my opinion stingscourger comes second. MWM is a close third. Perish/Pyrokinesis fall behind all three of these, despite their grandiose effects.

Unfortunately zoo players don't run 19 lands anymore. Hell, some ran 18, those crazies. Waste + Vial is an easy to win fast before they can recuperate. Take advantage of this strategy especially if you run 3+ ports, but be wary that lucky draws can screw you.

I second the goblin pyromancer idea. If you only have 1 space in your sideboard, he's a good catch-all board in when you have dead cards (ex. vs burn or landstill), and the opponent rarely accounts for his presence (usually they can't afford to play that cautiously).

If you are very worried about zoo, warren instigator should not be in your 75. Chieftain doesn't really help much either, as you can't usually afford to risk all your guys when zoo has R or W open in the combat phase.

I wrote this about 6 months ago, when I was trying to write the primer that the admin decided not to post. It is a little outdated, but it contains some of my thoughts:

" I'll be honest, I love this matchup because zoo players think it is a bye for some reason. The key to this matchup is aether vial. Get a vial and all the sudden the matchup becomes a lot more favorable, because it allows you to waste+port them while still building up an army. Goblins has inevitability in this matchup for sure. This makes cards like stingscourger great, because it will return a goyf and block a nacatl or something, saving you 1.5 or so turns of damage. Don't chump block until you get to less than 10 life or so, because you need to build up your army, and many zoo players are rightfully afraid of sudden hasty goblins doing stuff with piledrivers. This makes some zoo players play their deck like it is rock or something, pinging away at the goblins player with their exalted nacatl. What they don't realize is that at a certain point goblins has no choice to block so they should just try to make it a damage race like most of their other matchups. You can prey on this inexperience often, as many zoo players have been told and trained to "bring in your 2-3 clasms and laugh" when there is much more to the matchup than that. Pridemage is a bastard, but you can hopefully shut off one of those two colors if you have the vial in play that you are worried about getting nuked by pridemage. If Zoo keeps a land light hand and doesn't draw too many lands they are certainly not in a good position. The more lands Zoo plays the worse the matchup becomes for you. Likewise, the more colors they play, obviously the better it is. It is very easy to force removal against them, as they have a lot and like the idea of killing both a blocker and a utility threat, which I don't blame them for. Also, don't be stupid with gempalm. You need to be at least 1 goblins ahead of what you need, sometimes 2 depending on what is on the field. If they bolt in response and their nacatl only takes 2 damage, well, then you just got owned badly. You usually want to save your pyrokinesis for either an early lackey connection when the opponent taps out for a guy to block lackey and you don't have stingscourger, a game winning position, or after a clasm effect to clear the board. Don't let lavamancer live too long, he is a god, and jitte is good but can still be played around. Basically, the skill of the zoo player in his understanding of the matchup will greatly determine your chances."

[Neuad]

I still think zoo is near unwinnable without them keeping a meh hand, and me exploding all over their face with a lucky hand. Luck isn't something I want to rely on, especially when we are talking a deck that is being speculated at 20-25% of the field in the GP.

Maybe I'm a bad goblin pilot, its very possible as I'm still learning the game. But these testings were done with my 2 infinetly more skilled friends watching/running zoo/giving me advice on how to play against zoo as I prepped for the GP. I decided to switch decks at last minute so I can stand a better chance at a zoo heavy tournement with my somewhat lacking skill.

Also goblins doesn't do too hot in my meta so I think this switch might be semi-long term.

A typical wedensday night at our local place includes alot of Enchantress and Landstill.

We have so many enchantresses running around that we are going to do enchantress night, and build like 9 and go to someone elses legacy night

[Talanos]

So that leaves us with: what to board out? For one, you can go down to 1 siege-gang commander. He's good, but we need space, and 5cc can be a lot to ask for. My other target, much less popular for boarding out? Warren weirding. Yes, warren weirding. The fact is, you really don't need 1-3 gempalm, 1-3 stingscourger, 3-4 perish, and 1-4 weirding (and possibly 2-4 pyrokinesis!?!). That's too much removal that will clog up your hand. Postboard I aim for 2-3 gempalm, 2-3 stingscourger, and 3-4 sb removal (either perish or pyrokinesis).

I explained a few pages back why I think boarding out warren weirding in this matchup is correct. I don't remember my exact logic, but basically, weirding doesn't help your board position that much and although it kills a creature, it time walks you. I might try to find it later but for now I'm going to keep it concise.

Vial is by far the best card in this matchup (as usual...), and in my opinion stingscourger comes second. MWM is a close third. Perish/Pyrokinesis fall behind all three of these, despite their grandiose effects.

@FoulQ, I'd like to explore your logic on these two points.

First, why do you say that WW timewalks you? To me, timewalking yourself implies that they gained position whereas you kept the same position you had before the turn started. You spent 2 mana to kill a creature, they spent 1-3 mana on that creature. You may have played a land, they may have played a land. Getting further in land drops only advances you more than it advances them. Granted, on T2, it may not be as tempo as SS against their goyf + block their nacatl, but still, you'd have to deal with both creatures again the next turn.

At least with WW, one creature is gone, and if you can deal/chump the other, that's more room for you to pressure back or move into the late game. I'm not saying I think SS is bad, but I'm not sure how WW is bad either. It's the only reliable removal you can tutor/reveal for, since gempalm is sometimes useless. SS may gain 1.5 turns of tempo, but you're still going to be facing down some 3/3 or bigger in a turn again anyway if you don't do something about it.

As a thought experiment, say you're facing a solitary goyf or knight on turn 4 or 5, after you hit their initial deploys with a Perish. What would you rather have, SS or WW? I boarded out my drivers for the Perishes. Are you saying you'd rather keep the drivers and take out WW?

Also, I'm trying to understand why SS is better than MWM. SS buys you 1 turn against the creature you bounced and 1 turn against the creature you blocked. Possibly 2 turns if you bounced at EOT. So 3 turns of effective stall. MWM blocks 3 creatures, so again, 3 turns of effective stall. However, MWM enables gempalm better, which is already something you are hard pressed to do against Zoo. On the other hand, SS forces them to replay the creature. I guess what you're saying is that making them spend the mana again is more useful than possibly enabling gempalm?

Like I said, I don't necessary disagree (I haven't played the deck long enough to be that pretentious :), I'm just curious how you'd analyze my logic.

[Talanos]

I still think zoo is near unwinnable without them keeping a meh hand, and me exploding all over their face with a lucky hand. Luck isn't something I want to rely on, especially when we are talking a deck that is being speculated at 20-25% of the field in the GP.

Maybe I'm a bad goblin pilot, its very possible as I'm still learning the game. But these testings were done with my 2 infinetly more skilled friends watching/running zoo/giving me advice on how to play against zoo as I prepped for the GP. I decided to switch decks at last minute so I can stand a better chance at a zoo heavy tournement with my somewhat lacking skill.

Just curious, what did you decide to play?

[Neuad]

A zoo build a friends been working on tooled to win the mirror. Playtesting it I went 6-1 against the mirror netdecked zoo.

I love goblins and I really want it to work, and like I said theres a good possibility its me personally as a sub-par player and theres no way I'm breaking this deck up, but its getting sidelined for now as I try other areas.

If I had the time and resources to build Landstill I would love to play that for the GP, but 4 days isn't enough to learn a deck that complex =p

[FoulQ]

Okay, time walk was bad word choice.

It's not that warren weirding is bad in the matchup. It's still pretty good. Problem is, you only have so many choices to board out: you have to keep the goblin engine boarded in (lackey, warchief, etc). And compared to the other options (such as MWM) it isn't as good. And yes piledriver is something you can board out (though I usually like to always have 1 in my deck). -3 driver, -1 sgc is only 4 slots and should probably NOT be enough if you have a proper sb (since you should probably have 5+ spots for zoo). Then I say move to warren weirding for boarding out.

The actual creatures you can deal with once you have established the goblin engine. A 3/3 nacatl isn't that big of a deal once you have the typicaql steady stream going that involves some combo of warchief, matron, ringleader, and hopefully vials.

Yes I do value SS more than WW in the matchup. Much more. In the scenario you listed, obviously WW is better. But if you got them down to a solitary creature on turn 4/5 you will probably win anyway, if you focus on starting the goblin stream. And SS in this situation is great too, though not gamebreaking like WW, but SS is great the entire game. I'll take that consistency over WW in the matchup, which can be sort of win-more against zoo.

You have my logic with SS spot on. They have to replay the creature and it has malaria its first turn. That's hot. Especially a 2cc or 3cc guy, this is huge. You blank them for a turn, and can chump/block their second attacker. You gain another turn with summoning sickness. You should now have 4 lands. Now the game really begins, and you are only facing down two threats. But honestly, saying which is better MWM/SS doesn't really matter, because you'll always want them in the matchup and you'll never board them out.

I am also wondering about the mirror-tech zoo version, how the matchup changes. Also, enchantress/landstill, are not fun. Goblins is not as good without new horizons, reanimator, merfs, to prey on. Mystical tutor banning made us worse, in my opinion.

If you have to face zoo 3+ times in your meta you should definitely give up on goblins. 2+ times and probably as well. The deck really isn't that great anymore. I just play it because it's all I'm good at, and I'm too lazy to learn other decks. Plus, other legacy decks are kinda lame in my opinion.

[Neuad]

Plus, other legacy decks are kinda lame in my opinion.


I will fully agree with that statement except for 3 specific decks.

Rec Survival is a blast if you get your engine up and running.

Landstill, granted I'm still new to the deck but the 'epic' feel of a game where you get beat down to 3 then finally get a moat off, cunning wish for pulse of the fields, then hold off till you draw a kill condition.

Zoo is a blast to play as another fast aggro deck.

[GoboLord]

The deck really isn't that great anymore. I just play it because it's all I'm good at, and I'm too lazy to learn other decks. Plus, other legacy decks are kinda lame in my opinion.

I know exactly what you mean. I was always playing Goblins,. In my "legacy history" there were only 3 toruneys when I didnt run Goblins.
I agree with you that Goblin isnt that great anymore, but I love to see my opponents disgusted face when I start Mountain, Lackey, Go. Nearly everyone tells me that Goblins are kinda dead, and not competitive - maybe cause I'm the only one playing this deck at our local tourney (with like 70 players every month).
As you said: " I just play it because it's all I'm good at, and I'm too lazy to learn other decks. Plus, other legacy decks are kinda lame in my opinion."

[evilgorrilaz]

Mirror-tech zoo seems worse to me. They have more remova (wtffxor lightning helix)l and sylvan library to draw more burn come late-game. Or elspeth to make things fly. They can't bring you down to 0 as fast, but set-up for a more solid mid-game kill with more removal/burn.

Also has anyone seen the latest iteration of too much information? While Zoo boasts a 60/40 win% overall, if you account for players with .500+ records, the match-up becomes literally a coinflip.

[lotriderm]

@ Zoo

Yeah, the matchup is not as bad it seems. I'm running monoR and I still think it is only slightly favourable for them.

Random question: If I cast Lightning Crafter with Goblin Warchief out, I can put the CITB trigger on the stack, use Crafter's ability (since it has haste), then resolve the trigger and sacrifice the Crafter?

[heroicraptor]

Random question: If I cast Lightning Crafter with Goblin Warchief out, I can put the CITB trigger on the stack, use Crafter's ability (since it has haste), then resolve the trigger and sacrifice the Crafter?

Yes. Was there a particular reason you thought you couldn't?

[ddt15]

I am still positive in my personal matchups vs Zoo over the tournaments I've played this year (playing both MonoR and BR versions). Granted some of the opponents weren't great players (nor am I btw), but I've always though the matchup is fairly even. The strategy is always the same; survive (Mogg War Marshal is very good here) until you can take out some of their creatures with Wasteland->Pyro or Perish then cast Ringleader and overrun them. Vial is very, very important in this match. I never side out Lackeys - the mere threat of an unblocked Lackey can force them to hold back some of their creatures. If you manage to land an early Siege-Gang then that is nearly always gg. A Boartusk Liege out of the board is also tough for them, they have to spend two burn spells to get rid of it.

[(nameless one)]

I am still positive in my personal matchups vs Zoo over the tournaments I've played this year (playing both MonoR and BR versions). Granted some of the opponents weren't great players (nor am I btw), but I've always though the matchup is fairly even. The strategy is always the same; survive (Mogg War Marshal is very good here) until you can take out some of their creatures with Wasteland->Pyro or Perish then cast Ringleader and overrun them. Vial is very, very important in this match. I never side out Lackeys - the mere threat of an unblocked Lackey can force them to hold back some of their creatures. If you manage to land an early Siege-Gang then that is nearly always gg. A Boartusk Liege out of the board is also tough for them, they have to spend two burn spells to get rid of it.

How does your mono-red anti-zoo list look like?

Also, what kind of zoo decks are you battling? Is the the one with Steppe Lynx (and shitloads of burn) or the one with Knight of the Reliquary (and sometimes Elspeth)?