[DTB] Vial Goblins [Archive] - Page 21

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Muradin

07-28-2010, 01:35 PM

A mono red anti zoo goblins list is probably one featuring several copies of Stingscourger, Mogg War Marshall, eventually Mogg Fanatic (against Lynx, to improve Gempalm Incinerator) and some kind of removal in the board. To make room for those cards it probably has less than 4 Piledrivers and in order to ensure the lategame is yours it should have 23-24 lands alongside 3 Siege Gang Commanders.

(nameless one)

07-28-2010, 02:58 PM

lotriderm

07-29-2010, 01:46 AM

It has been established that Goblin Lackey shouldn't be sidelined against Zoo. Would this philosophy apply to Warren Instigator? My current list runs 3x Stingscourger and 3x Gempalm Incinerator as its primary removal (since its mono-red). I currently do not run Mogg War Marshall. Should I remove Warren Instigator (or sideline them) for Mogg War Marshalls?

Depends if you're expecting to fight a lot of zoo or not. I was always a fan of Mogg War Marshall due to its synergy with Gempalm Incinerator, so that's just me. I run 3 maindeck Mogg War Marshals with 4 Gempalm Incinerators and 3 Stingscourger as removal.

Right now, I'm trying out 1 Siege Gang Commander and 1 Lightning Crafter instead of having just the 2 Siege Gangs. So far I've been liking the Lightning Crafter as my Incinerator #5 sorta.

Shawon

07-30-2010, 10:41 PM

I've been playing a ton of games with a RB list on MWS recently, and I felt like dropping two points I feel should be made or emphasized based on the current discussion:

Siege-gang commander is the best mana-sink in the deck. Run 3 MD. It's better MD than Wort, Boggart Auntie and Lightning Crafter. It is WAY more versatile and reliable than either Wort or Crafter. It's the best card of the three to drop via Lackey turns 2 or 3, since it attacks AND blocks AND burns, better than Wort or Crafter. Dropping a turn 2 Wort is unnecessary and dropping a turn 2 Crafter means championing Lackey, which is obviously bad. Yes, Crafter can be synergistic with Ringleader, but it's too situational to use, and you have to actually think about attacking with it to pump Piledriver. SGC is the best bomb in the deck, and 3 is just enough to ensure drawing him late game or in the opener with Lackey.

Wort, Boggart Auntie > Goblin Pyromancer. Someone said that Pyromancer is good against control, but I find that it's only just win-more and doesn't stop you from losing. Wort does stop you from losing, via recurring Ringleaders, SGCs, etc. That said, Wort is a great SB slot.

Cyrus

08-01-2010, 12:19 PM

Philip Yam was 9-0 Day 1 in Grand Prix Columbus using a Rb Goblins list. Some weird choices, like 3 warchiefs and main sharpshooter, but it is getting there.

Tao

08-01-2010, 04:19 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekylBN29TQ0&

Steve Sadin talking about his Red/Green Goblins (3/1 Mogg War Marshal, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Skirk Prospector). Even though there are many things explained for noobs it is quite informative and the list looks pretty good.

Endrju

08-02-2010, 02:46 AM

What do you think about his sideboard? I personally don't like Mindbreak Traps - I've tested them in few tournaments and found out that Chalice of the Void or even Pyrostatic Pillar are better against storm decks, as Trap is usually taken out by duress/thoughtseize and can be easily blocked by silence/chant... And what about grave hate? I always preffered split between Relics and Crypts, 'cause when you have only one it means all your gravehate is dead after one needle hits the ground (and against dredge you may not have enough time to search for hooligan and play it turn 4). Furthermore, full activation of relic costs 2 mana, while crypt does the thing for free, which is important in aggro deck. One of undefeated d1 gob decks was running Leylines of the Void, does it really work? (I've never tested it)

jrw1985

08-02-2010, 07:54 PM

One of undefeated d1 gob decks was running Leylines of the Void, does it really work? (I've never tested it)

If you mull to it you can stop Lands/Dredge/Reanimator before they can get anything going. If they have an answer it's damn hard to replay it later in the game. I think it used to be better, when Reanimator was still running wild. Now it's probably safer to run relics, as they don't have to be in your starting hand and can still F up a graveyard over the course of many turns or just one.

GoboLord

08-03-2010, 04:20 PM

Clearly, the two second-best cards to play against combo, based on power level alone are Pyrostatic Pillar and Mindbreak Trap. Both have advantages - but from experience I will tell you that a resolved Pillar is almost GG's for a storm deck. It costs probably 4 life just to try to remove the damn thing from the board. But if you are more concerned about them trying to win turn 1, or turn 2 on the play, then clearly Trap is better for you, giving you at least a shot to stop them.

I thought so too, and I must say that those cards are the WORST ways to hate combo. With Pillar in Play, thay will simply loop Ill-Gotten gains.
Minbreak Trap will be Duressed since they are expecting Combo hate. Some lists run SIlence/Chant, those cards will deal with Mindbreak Trap too.
Plus, those cards aren't good in ANY other matchup.
My experience tells me, that they will keep "save" hands with Chant/Duress backup. You should have one more turn to do extra damage, maybe this will be enough.
If you want to run really good combo hate I'd play Chalice of the Void. We discussed this issue (which combo hate is best/worst) like 8 pages ago, maybe this makes sense to you.
My oppinion is not to run ANY combo hate at all, but to rely on your speed. We can kill on T3 too, especially when there are no creature in the way.

----------------------------
Different topic:
I'm going to participate in the German Legacy Championship this month. I dont know what decks will show up, so here is my list which is prepared for aggro and midrange MUs alot:

//Lands [22]
6 Fetch
6 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland

//Creatures [27]
4 Lackey
4 Piley
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warren Instigator
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Removal [7]
3 Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Tunneler

//Spells [4]
4 Vials

//Sideboard [15]
4 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Nature's Claim

Pre-board it's mono R. I splashed B for Perish and G for Nature's Claim. I don't run any specific combo hate because I want to rely on my speed and my luck here. If any then I would bring in 4 REBs for 3 Gempalm and 1 Stingscourger. to stop their brainstorm/Lim-duls vault/maybe meditate (in DD lists).

Comments?

evilgorrilaz

08-03-2010, 04:48 PM

//Lands [22]
6 Fetch
6 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland

//Creatures [27]
4 Lackey
4 Piley
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warren Instigator
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Removal [7]
3 Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Tunneler

//Sideboard [15]
4 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Nature's Claim

Pre-board it's mono R. I splashed B for Perish and G for Nature's Claim. I don't run any specific combo hate because I want to rely on my speed and my luck here. If any then I would bring in 4 REBs for 3 Gempalm and 1 Stingscourger. to stop their brainstorm/Lim-duls vault/maybe meditate (in DD lists).

Comments?
//Spells [4]
4 Vial

Nature's Claim is interesting; I would personally run Krosan Grip. The only thing I don't like the the goblin tunneler + instigator. The combo seems way too sketchy. You essentially are cutting removal for unblockable in the form of a creature.

My changes would be:
-2 goblin Tunneler
-3 Warren Instigator

+1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
+1 Mogg War Marshall
+1 Gempalm Incinerator
+1 Warren Weirding
+1 Goblin Chieftain

Wort, while not having the same effect as a Seige-Gang when it hits the table, is much better than the 3rd Seige-Gang in my opinion because it offers a lot more utility. MWM + Gempalm for more survivability + removal. I want at least 1 Weirding MD because if I play some NO deck, I want an answer to Progenitus game 1. Chieftain makes e.plague much less scary post board and offers some serious damage with the amount of token makers.

Angels

08-03-2010, 08:15 PM

Should R/B Goblin build run Wastelands, Ports, or Both considering that we have to run at least 3-4 fetches?

HedleyKow

08-03-2010, 08:40 PM

Should R/B Goblin build run Wastelands, Ports, or Both considering that we have to run at least 3-4 fetches?

R/B Goblins can, and should, run Wastes and Ports just fine.

jrw1985

08-07-2010, 05:28 PM

R/B/G Utility Goblins (61)

Land (23)
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
1x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Wasteland
3x Wooded Foothills

Creature (31)
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Tinkerer
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Stingscourger
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie

Sorcery (3)
3x Warren Weirding

Artifact (4)
4x AEther Vial

Sideboard (15)

3x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Reverent Silence
2x Vexing Shusher

I think I'll be playing this list at my next tournament. I've always liked the great big toolbox the Goblins rock, so I built this deck to take advantage of it. Tinkerer is my favorite artifact destruction card as he is the only goblin that can destroy Top in response to Top tapping to draw. Also, he can be used repeatedly. Sharpshooter is pretty awesome. So is Stingscourger. There's nothing better than dropping him to your opponent's Show and Tell (and this scenario has been coming up more and more frequently lately). Wort has always always always been a disappointment to me, except in games where it allows me to win. There are so many amazing cards to recur in this deck. Besides the obvious benefit of replaying creatures, Wort allows you to stack upkeep triggers as follows--- Wort's trigger on stack, Echo trigger of War Marshall/STINGSCOURGER on stack, don't pay the echo = creature goes to the graveyard, Wort's trigger resolves and you return War Marshal/STINGSCOURGER to your hand to be replayed. Voila.

I chose my sideboard based on the idea that every card we side in dilutes the potency of the deck's synergy. Therefor, our sideboard cards should be efficient as possible so that we side in as few as possible. Chalice of the Void is great against combo and decks with really low mana curves, and when combined with Vexing Shusher has a minimalized effect on the spells you play. Vexing Shusher, being a goblin, doesn't weaken the deck's synergies. Leyline of the Void is always a point of contention, but the fact is this card wrecks recursion decks when it enters play turn 0. Pyrokinesis is NOT as big a hoser as Perish, but it is clearly far more versatile. Plus, the deck mainboards Wierding, so you don't need to be concerned about needing a Perish to off Progenitus. Also, you're going to want to side out Wierding in mirrors and Mutavault matchups. Reverent Silence probably seems awful. Why splash green just for that card? Because Moats and Propogandas and Engineered Plagues and Enchantress Decks are running wild these days so eff it. Run a card that wipes em all out (and play it for free, then make it uncounterable with Shusher thanks to that extra mana you have open).

And yes, I'm only gonna run 3 Piledrivers. It's an amazing card, but you can still win games without him.

jrw1985

08-07-2010, 05:33 PM

Wort allows you to stack upkeep triggers as follows--- Wort's trigger on stack, Echo trigger of War Marshall/STINGSCOURGER on stack, don't pay the echo = creature goes to the graveyard, Wort's trigger resolves and you return War Marshal/STINGSCOURGER to your hand to be replayed. Voila.

Whoops, I lied. Wort targets the card which I believe means i was wrong above. The card has to be in the graveyard at the beginning of the upkeep to be targeted by the upkeep trigger. if Wort read "At the beginning of your upkeep return A goblin card from your graveyard to your hand" then what I had proposed would be possible. It doesn't, so, it isn't. My bad.

Humphrey

08-08-2010, 11:55 AM

Winner, 2010 Legacy Championship
Ryan Messick

Main Deck

60 cards
1 Arid Mesa
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
21 lands

2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
32 creatures 4 Aether Vial
3 Warren Weirding
7 other spells

Sideboard
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Warren Weirding
15 sideboard cards

Weird choices with Barbarian Ring, only 3 Fetches, no Ports. Kikijiki and Wort. Mindbreak Trap saved his ass though, but there are better choices against Combo i guess.

FoulQ

08-08-2010, 12:57 PM

Looks to me like a pretty average/standard list. A lot of lists that play Auntie's Hovel only play 4 fetches, so 3 isn't that abnormal.

Chieftains instead of MWM, and a 3rd high casting cost guy for the 22nd land. Those look like the main changes from source discussion.

Personally I'd go for 3 high casting cost guys (2 SGC, 1 Wort? perhaps), and 22 lands. 21 does not work for me.

Barbarian ring tech is well known but I think most people agree when they have tested it: not worth it.

And his sideboard is pretty streamlined.

jrw1985

08-09-2010, 12:50 AM

Looks to me like a pretty average/standard list. ....

And his sideboard is pretty streamlined.

I often feel like I'm pinned in a straightjacket when I'm tinkering with the deck because, let's face it, there just isn't any room to putz with this deck. Lackeys, Matrons, Ringleaders, Warchiefs, and Vials are automatic 4-ofs. Piledrivers and Incinerators are usually 4-ofs. There is also always always always at least one Siege-Gang Commander. That leaves about 10 non-land slots open, and the deciding how to fill them doesn't even change the way the deck plays. The card choices for the 10 spare slots always seem to be split into 3 categories: Creature removal (Wierdings or Stingscourger), Creature advantage (Siege-Gang or War Marshal, or Chieftan), or Tech (Wort, Kiki-Jiki, Tinkerer, Sharpshooter, Instigator). And the pain of it is, decks that swing to any extreme still manage to win tournaments. Just look through the top placing Goblins lists on SSG.

Anthony Avitollo plays for more removal.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33473

Noah Swartz gets more tokens into play.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33469

And Ryan Messick does well with a tech heavy deck (shown above).

And the Columbus GP showed 2 Goblin decks making day 2 undefeated, one R/B and one mono-red. Phillip Yam's decklist cuts "core" cards (Piledriver and Warchief) to make room for tech cards like Sharpshooter and Fanatic and to have a higher percentage of token generating War Marshals and Siege Gangs. Chris Nighbor's deck, on the other hand, is as straightforward a classic Goblin decklist as you could ever hope to see.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/day2

To me, the lack of diversity between these decklists says that the core of the deck is what wins matches, and is robust enough to win tournaments. Tuning a Goblin deck won't do anything for your final results. Those 10 open slots don't really matter at this point. There is collective knowledge within the Magic community that knows what the deck is and how it wins and how to play against it. A Goblin deck can only be tuned to the meta, in my opinion. Then it's up to smart play and, as always, a little luck.

The sideboard continues to be the biggest mystery for me as our much-loved deck doesn't want to get diluted with non-Goblin cards. If they made a Cursecatcher-goblin equivalent it would be an automatic sideboard 4-of. If there was a Goblin Faerie Macabre it wouldn't even be questioned. But there's not. And due to the power of the deck already, probably never will be.

So it goes.

markbris

08-09-2010, 06:30 AM

I often feel like I'm pinned in a straightjacket when I'm tinkering with the deck because, let's face it, there just isn't any room to putz with this deck. Lackeys, Matrons, Ringleaders, Warchiefs, and Vials are automatic 4-ofs. Piledrivers and Incinerators are usually 4-ofs. There is also always always always at least one Siege-Gang Commander. That leaves about 10 non-land slots open, and the deciding how to fill them doesn't even change the way the deck plays. The card choices for the 10 spare slots always seem to be split into 3 categories: Creature removal (Wierdings or Stingscourger), Creature advantage (Siege-Gang or War Marshal, or Chieftan), or Tech (Wort, Kiki-Jiki, Tinkerer, Sharpshooter, Instigator). And the pain of it is, decks that swing to any extreme still manage to win tournaments. Just look through the top placing Goblins lists on SSG.

Anthony Avitollo plays for more removal.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33473

Noah Swartz gets more tokens into play.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33469

And Ryan Messick does well with a tech heavy deck (shown above).

And the Columbus GP showed 2 Goblin decks making day 2 undefeated, one R/B and one mono-red. Phillip Yam's decklist cuts "core" cards (Piledriver and Warchief) to make room for tech cards like Sharpshooter and Fanatic and to have a higher percentage of token generating War Marshals and Siege Gangs. Chris Nighbor's deck, on the other hand, is as straightforward a classic Goblin decklist as you could ever hope to see.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/day2

To me, the lack of diversity between these decklists says that the core of the deck is what wins matches, and is robust enough to win tournaments. Tuning a Goblin deck won't do anything for your final results. Those 10 open slots don't really matter at this point. There is collective knowledge within the Magic community that knows what the deck is and how it wins and how to play against it. A Goblin deck can only be tuned to the meta, in my opinion. Then it's up to smart play and, as always, a little luck.

The sideboard continues to be the biggest mystery for me as our much-loved deck doesn't want to get diluted with non-Goblin cards. If they made a Cursecatcher-goblin equivalent it would be an automatic sideboard 4-of. If there was a Goblin Faerie Macabre it wouldn't even be questioned. But there's not. And due to the power of the deck already, probably never will be.

So it goes.

I came to this conclusion myself yesterday, nice post.

tgDC$

08-09-2010, 02:11 PM

I ended up taking 3rd at a semi small tourney, 32 people, and walk away with 2 tundras for my troubles. I played a fairly standard BR list

4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
2 badlands
5 mountains
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

4 vial
4 lackey
4 piledriver
4 matron
4 warchief
4 ringleader
3 gempalm incinerator
2 Mogg war marshall
2 stingscourger
2 sgc
1 kiki jiki
2 warren weirding
1 goblin chieftain

Sb
4 pyrokinesis
2 perish
3 pyrostatic pillar
1 warren weirding
1 goblin tinkerer
1 goblin sharpshooter
3 price of progress (i heard there were 3-4 ppl playing 42lands last time)

My matchups were
Rd1 bgw good stuff homebrew loss 1-2
Rd2 mono red goblins win 2-1
Rd3 zoo win 2-1
Rd4 mono green stompy win 2-0
Rd5 ubg jacestill win 2-1

Top8
Zoo win 2-0

Top4
Mono red painter stone loss 1-2
It was 2am and I didn't board correctly and lose to turn 3 and turn 4 nut combo draws

Overall kiki was great for me and pyrokinesis was nuts

GoboLord

08-09-2010, 05:42 PM

Hi guys,

I was testing a Rwb Goblin build last weekend (never had that before). I went 3-4-0, had well...not the best MUs and want to conclude that Swords to Plowshares (I would even say W splash in general) isn't good for Gobs.

Here is my list, followed by a short report:

//Lands [22]
5 Mountain
4 Plateau
3 badlands
6 Fetches
4 Wastelands

//Core [27]
4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Chieftain
4 Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

//Techs & Removal [11] (I like this genreal division by jrw and markbris, it makes things easier)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tunnler
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Warren Instigator

//Sideboard [15]
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Perish
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
1 Serenity

1st Round: Mono Black Aggro 0-2 (with a foull package of 4 Nighthawks, 4 TOmbstalker and 3 Jitte MD!!)
2nd Round: DDEmrakul 2-1 (1-off-Stingscourger ftw!)
3rd Round: Zoo 2-0 (triple SGC saves the day!)
4th Round: 5c-Planeswalker-Control 1-2 (he had 9 Firespout in 3 games)
5th Round: GW Vengvine Survival 0-2 (Dueling Grounds got me)
6th Round: Moat Staxx 2-0 (he had 4 Moat/ 4 Humility/ 4 Elspeth/ 3 Tabernacle MD! and didnt draw a second W land in both games)
7th ROund: Dredge 0-2 (StoP had to remove a 10/10 Gravetroll)

I must admit, this build sucks. I basicly wanted to test W splash after a friend of mine conviced me to borrow him my Playset Taiga and Leyline of the Void (both of which I missed so much)

DOs and DONTs:
- Swords to Plowshares - maybe PtE is an option (which clashes with Wasteland though)
- Serenity - was way too slow against Jitte (twice!), got destroyed by Pridemage once
- Relic of Progenitus - once again I realized how bad this card is
- Red Elemental Blast - I really like this card, but I overestimated it's worth against Control decks (should be good against Merfolk though)
+ Goblin Tunnler - Great card! I run 2 in my Rbg build and I'm thinking adding a third copy (sneaks Lackey and Instigator through Factories)
+ MWM - Same as for Goblin Tunnler
+ 3 Siege-Gang Commander MD! - This card is just great. If pitched with Lackey in early turns it's totally game

Overall I think Goblins should rely on their speed, which means many tokens + a tunnled Piledriver for me.

------------------------
Different topic:

I have 2 questions I need your proffessional help with.

(1)
It seems that every Goblin deck is reporting good results against Merfolk - well evereyone but me. My statics tell me that this MU is absolutely 50/50. It seems that Coralhel Commander is the biggest problem for me. Plus, it seems that the outcome of the match depends on who goes first. If Merfolk starts with Vial, I'll usually lose the race. If I start with Lackey, they cannot keep up with it.
Do you guys have a certain strategy against Merfolk or is it all about sideboarding? I ran REB for a while, but they didnt seem to help much, cause I got nothing useful to kick (usually it's 2 Stingscourger, 2 Warren Instigator)

(2)
I'm going to participate in a big tournament with mostly unknown meta. I want to run a Rbg build and I like hear your oppion of the following cards:

- Mindbreak Trap (in theory it cant be good, but succesful Goblin builds/players run them in SB)
- Pyrokinesis (never tested it)
- Chalice of the Void (I like it, but it's not killer against any other deck than Belcher)

My SB looks like this:

4 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Earwig Squad

Although I'm not sure abou the 4 slots occupied by the Goblins.

Wheew, long post - hope you can help me with your experience and some explanations

Avatara

08-10-2010, 09:38 AM

You should run Mirror Entities instead of Goblin Chieftains in Rw. They are nuts when combined with Warren Instigator, Mogg War Marshall and Siege-Gang Commander and just about any other goblin out there. Vile one in when Zoo attacks and pump your guys = one sided board sweeper. The Merfolk matchup will also increase to 99-1 seeing how their lords boost your goblins (+1/+1 and island walk).

Humphrey

08-15-2010, 09:49 AM

GoboLord

08-15-2010, 01:22 PM

Im currently building my SB for the next event. The matchup concerning me the most is combo - DDFT and TES. Im still not sure how many slots i want do devote for those. Actually i only have 4 free slots and im not sure which card(s) are the best.

My SB atm:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish
3 Planar Void
1 Relic of P.
3 Lighning Bolts
1 Sharpshooter

Im not sure about the Therapies atm, they can be very good with MWM but often dont hit or to slow. Brainstorm in response/ 2nd Turn Flashback, but same is true for Thoughtseize/Duress. Although Therapies/Seizes can be usefull against other decks too.

other options:
Mindbreak Trap - Kind of useless after Turn1 because of Chant and Duress. Very good against Belcher but useless in other matchups
Chalice of the void - Useless on the draw, only slows them down a bit, but might be the best option. Kinda useless in other matchups (you just dont want to board it)
Thorn of Amethyst - Somewhat slow but pretty effective, can be useful against pure control like Landstill.

no combohate at all - the combomatchup is the worst matchup for goblins for sure, so maybe just drop all the hate to have more advantages over other decktypes and just prey the comboplayer fizzles or make mistakes?

other ideas? Thoughts?

€dit:
Has anybody ever tried running 3-4 Simian Spirit Guides Main? It allows us to dodge Daze, cast Lackey Vial first turn and Waste. It allows faster Warchiefs and we get the option on first turn Chalice1 or Amethyst.
Its obv much better otd than otp and its not a goblin, but with ~34 Goblins left, Ringleader should be good enough.

Thoughts:

Cabal Therapy - IMO it's not worth it. You justed named the most important shortcomings of that card. What I don't understand: I what other MU do you bring them in? I can't think of any MU in which you want to have less Goblins (which you most certainly will board out).

Mindbreak Trap - didn't test it. But in theory I would agree with you. Against DDFT and and TES you can probably surprise them in g2 (after you lost g1), but in g3 they will play around it or search for Duress/Chant (as you just said)

Chalice - I really like that card (I run it in SB myself). Therefore I consider it the most effective way to disrupt combo. I don't agree with you when you are saying that it's useless OTD. I most often put it down for 0 to not disrupt myself and not wasting t2 for a non-goblin spell. There are hands with which it's clever to put it down for 2, but I think shutting down 10-12 of their mana cards is more effective.
Plus, this card is absolutely effective against Canadian Thresh (since they seldomly run artifact/entchanment removal)

Thorn of Amethyst - I tried it out. If you are able to resolve it against combo it will buy you enough time to win the game. But this is not very likely when you are OTD. I boarded it against Landstill and some other heavy control deck. In both cases it didnt even slow them down a bit. Oftentimes they wont be able to cast their EOT-Brainstorm, but that's it.

No combo hate at all - I used to play without any, but I guess our MU against non-Belcher combo decks isn't that bad. We can kill on t3 too, and without Mystical tutor combo has hard time in fining solutions for your combo hate. Therfore I would run cards that hate combo, but not ONLY combo (which I think is the case with Mindbreak Trap)

lotriderm

08-15-2010, 11:33 PM

I also use Chalice of the Void in my board (I play monoR). I usually drop it on 0 and hopefully a Lackey or a Vial because like what GoboLord said, I don't really like wasting my turn2 dropping a Chalice @ 1 when I am trying to race.

It is also strong against Reanimator too if it is popular in your meta.

FoulQ

08-16-2010, 04:24 AM

Different topic:

I have 2 questions I need your proffessional help with.

(1)
It seems that every Goblin deck is reporting good results against Merfolk - well evereyone but me. My statics tell me that this MU is absolutely 50/50. It seems that Coralhel Commander is the biggest problem for me. Plus, it seems that the outcome of the match depends on who goes first. If Merfolk starts with Vial, I'll usually lose the race. If I start with Lackey, they cannot keep up with it.
Do you guys have a certain strategy against Merfolk or is it all about sideboarding? I ran REB for a while, but they didnt seem to help much, cause I got nothing useful to kick (usually it's 2 Stingscourger, 2 Warren Instigator)

Coralhelm Commander does indeed improve their matchup considerably. But this should still be a very easy matchup.

You win the long game. They have to kill you pretty fast, or at the very least, spam lords very fast. There are two fronts, the creature war, but also the land war (feat. piledriver, since he can be blocked by mutavault). Win one of them and you will usually win the game (as long as you have a piledriver for the land war). What's also great is that you can either race them and oftentimes beat them (play 4 piledrivers in today's meta!), or hold out and win with ringleader/matron. You have a lot of avenues to victory, but from my testing in this matchup, merfolk only wins with a fast commander, a fast jitte, or a fast double lord play. Otherwise the game is yours to lose usually.

Pyrokinesis is the best sideboard card. Combat often comes down to one deciding battle, and the rest of the game kind of flows by itself or gets caught in a standstill (no pun intended). It's a pretty thoughtless matchup compared to most, in my opinion.

(2)
I'm going to participate in a big tournament with mostly unknown meta. I want to run a Rbg build and I like hear your oppion of the following cards:

- Mindbreak Trap (in theory it cant be good, but succesful Goblin builds/players run them in SB)
- Pyrokinesis (never tested it)
- Chalice of the Void (I like it, but it's not killer against any other deck than Belcher)

My SB looks like this:

4 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Earwig Squad

Although I'm not sure abou the 4 slots occupied by the Goblins.
Wheew, long post - hope you can help me with your experience and some explanations

Mindbreak Trap - bad
Chalice of the Void - bad
Pyrokinesis - usually a 4of

I don't mess around with cute tricks in my sideboard like combo hate, or boarding in chalice against tempo thresh. Usually, those cute tricks in goblins really fucking suck. Keep the tricks with your tops and brainstorms, not with your draw engine dependent on the card being a goblin.

Pyrokinesis gets the job done. Krosan grip gets the job done. Tormod's Crypt gets the job done. These are the cards I want in my sideboard: fast, efficient, and powerful at any point in the game. I want to stick to the goblin game plan, I should be able to dump the SB card easily but it needs to have a potent effect still. Because I often will only get 1 chance to see a sideboard card.

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Pyromancer

...Is my current SB setup for Rg goblins (what I believe to be the superior splash in the Columbus meta). The last two don't fit my SB philosophy, but they are goblins that are useful in a variety of matchups. Pyromancer against burn/landstill, as well as the mirror, and potentially more. And stingscourger against decks like new horizons, aggro loam, tempo thresh, etc.

This build also runs 4/2/1 split of Gempalm/Sting/Crafter.

Nelis

08-16-2010, 06:36 AM

And stingscourger against decks like new horizons, aggro loam, tempo thresh, etc.

How many do you run in total in your 75?

Waikiki

08-16-2010, 06:48 AM

1 Stingscourger

...Is my current SB setup for Rg goblins

This build also runs 4/2/1 split of Gempalm/Sting/Crafter.

Nelis

08-16-2010, 06:50 AM

Oh fuck I havent been paying attn again. Thanx. Another question then: and how many Mogg War Marshalls?

Waikiki

08-16-2010, 09:13 AM

On a side note I have been having alot of succes with this list:

I might think about a splash of green for grip and tin street but this is where I'm at

// Lands
15 [UG] Mountain
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
1 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [ROE] Tuktuk the Explorer
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis

Tuk tuk explorer is a testslot against zoo. It seems pretty strong also against mass removal

(nameless one)

08-16-2010, 09:22 AM

Speaking of mass removal, has anyone tried Firespout against Zoo and other weenie rush based strategy.

Yes, I know, Firespout is really good against Goblins and kills us but when it comes down to it, Goblin can recover faster to board removal.

I got this idea because back in my casual days during Onslaught, there was this dude who ran Pyroclasm and it was effective with the rest of the the field (it was tribal swarm), and he would recover faster than everyone else (because of Matron/Ringleader/Commander)

Waikiki

08-16-2010, 09:33 AM

I use pyro + mogg war marshall for that purpose. They stall the game against tribal/zoo until I can overrun them by card advantage

Humphrey

08-16-2010, 10:54 AM

ScatmanX

08-16-2010, 01:30 PM

Iver never been a friend of Pyrokinesis. Often you just trade 2-2 or worse, i prefer Bolts since they can just burn the opponent or planeswalker.

I dont see where Kinesis is much superior to bolt. maybe someone can enlighten me.

Pyroknesis is awesome because it does not delay your plan, and is way more unespected.
Yes, it is usually a 2-2, but (and it is a big BUT), your opponent probably spent 3-4 manas and 1-2 turns casting his creatures, and you spent 0, at instant speed. Even when you 2-1 yourself it is a good deal, because you get an advantage out of it, like connecting a lackey, or surviving for a few more turns.
Man, all blue decks 2-1 themselves all the time, countering 1 mana spells, and we know that's a good play.
Also, if you combine it with Gempalm, Sharpshooter, or use it as a defensive tool, it can nail you way better trades. Not often time I had 3-2 a Goblins or Merfolk player.
You just have to think carefully when is the best moment to use it, and what is the best card to pitch to it. (for me, early is usually SGC or Warchief, and late-game is Lackey)

lotriderm

08-17-2010, 01:31 AM

Iver never been a friend of Pyrokinesis. Often you just trade 2-2 or worse, i prefer Bolts since they can just burn the opponent or planeswalker.

I dont see where Kinesis is much superior to bolt. maybe someone can enlighten me.

Before I really hated Pyrokinesis because I rather have more goblins in my hand. But after reintroducing it into my SB against Zoo, it was amazing for me. Honestly, 2-2 against a zoo is great because I can refill my hand quickly but they cannot. Anytime Zoo mulls in G2 & G3, Pyrokinesis is the bomb.

@ ScatmanX

I actually never used Pyrokinesis to clear the way for Lackey connection. A) Lackey usually gets removed before I get to use it or B) Never have Pyrokinesis and Lackey together.

Dark Ritual

08-17-2010, 02:27 AM

There is the potential to use lackey and kinesis together, no one said you always get both in hand every time you board in the card if you did I would be running 4 SGC's because you could simply make lackey connect on the play via pyrokinesis. But pyrokinesis is amazing against other aggro decks including zoo especially ones with steppe lynx. Imagine they go turn 1 steppe lynx turn 2 grim lavamancer but no fetchland for lynx. You pyrokinesis both, 2 for 2-ing the zoo player by removing say a goblin lackey in hand or some other dead card.

Why would you ever run firespout in goblins? That is simply counterintuitive. The argument that we recover faster is based solely on us being able to cast a ringleader or siege gang next turn or lackey plus warchief after firespout. There's a reason people run firespout against us. It is a wrath effect for 3 mana against goblins, which I hear is amazing when you spend one mana to kill 2 or more of the opponents cards to produce CA.

Tin street hooligan is trash with warchief. I'd rather just play goblin tinkerer, and if warchief is in play it has haste so you can immediately destroy any artifact if you have R open. It also produces CA if it destroys more than one artifact which is possible against cards like chalice of the void or mishra's factory. And it can kill chrome mox with the imprint trigger on the stack as a plus in corner cases. And with a goblin chieftain in play, it can blow up jitte without suiciding itself.

Vacrix

08-17-2010, 02:35 AM

Iver never been a friend of Pyrokinesis. Often you just trade 2-2 or worse, i prefer Bolts since they can just burn the opponent or planeswalker.

I dont see where Kinesis is much superior to bolt. maybe someone can enlighten me.
Today I played against Zoo w Gobos. Post-board, Pyrokinesis shined. Especially when you deal with Steppe Lynx builds, Pyrokinesis often wipes your opponent's team post-combat.

Also, Supachai and I have been testing that matchup a lot. Goblins has been winning a good majority of the matches. I think Gobos could make a comeback to DTB if people switch away from the old builds toward the ones running Mogg War Marshall.

FoulQ

08-17-2010, 04:54 AM

Oh fuck I havent been paying attn again. Thanx. Another question then: and how many Mogg War Marshalls?

3 MWM. I don't like sharing lists that need testing, as I'm still working on it. I will say that I thought Steve Sadin's 60 build for Columbus is close to what I aiming for.

Tuk tuk explorer is a testslot against zoo. It seems pretty strong also against mass removal

Let me know how explorer goes. I'm interested in hearing. I'm not very optimistic, but I'm open to possibilities.

I'm hesitant to move up to 4 MWM myself, but I see what you are going with with the 3 chieftain. I would just say to make sure to gauge mass removal levels in your meta because your list's easiest way to victory seems to be swarm strategy with some possible overextension. Personally, I don't like to play that way, as what I like about goblins is that I have a little more control over what happens to me compared to generic legacy aggro decks.

Pyroknesis is awesome because it does not delay your plan, and is way more unespected.
Yes, it is usually a 2-2, but (and it is a big BUT), your opponent probably spent 3-4 manas and 1-2 turns casting his creatures, and you spent 0, at instant speed. Even when you 2-1 yourself it is a good deal, because you get an advantage out of it, like connecting a lackey, or surviving for a few more turns.
Man, all blue decks 2-1 themselves all the time, countering 1 mana spells, and we know that's a good play.
Also, if you combine it with Gempalm, Sharpshooter, or use it as a defensive tool, it can nail you way better trades. Not often time I had 3-2 a Goblins or Merfolk player.
You just have to think carefully when is the best moment to use it, and what is the best card to pitch to it. (for me, early is usually SGC or Warchief, and late-game is Lackey)

These are wise words about pyrokinesis. ScatmanX hits all the major points. I recommend 4 but can understand 3, and possibly 0 if you are trying the perish angle.

Pyrokinesis is a skill testing card. The good players love it, the bad players question it.

Tin street hooligan is trash with warchief. I'd rather just play goblin tinkerer, and if warchief is in play it has haste so you can immediately destroy any artifact if you have R open. It also produces CA if it destroys more than one artifact which is possible against cards like chalice of the void or mishra's factory. And it can kill chrome mox with the imprint trigger on the stack as a plus in corner cases. And with a goblin chieftain in play, it can blow up jitte without suiciding itself.

How many times does this have to be repeated? Many people have tested, and many people have concluded, that the interaction between warchief and TSH is negligible.

But just watch, five pages down the line, somebody else will mention this.

I don't know why people sometimes obsess over interactions like this by putting them in a vaccuum. It just isn't logical to approach magic that way, at least deck construction, it takes a big picture outlook.

Take, for instance, in the dragon stompy thread, Sword of Fire/Ice + Rakdos Pit Dragon. Countless times testers pointed out that the interaction is negligible (but SOFI's playability was always in somewhat question with moar jittes always available), but countless times random people posted that they aren't playing SOFI because of the drawback.

Back to in regards to tinkerer...It doesn't suicide itself so we got a dorky 2/3 that any card could have made? It can kill chrome mox with the imprint trigger on the stack? These are honestly two of your arguments for tinkerer? Look at the numbers, the artifacts you face day in and day out. Jitte, Vial, those are what matter the most. Most other things are just cute to kill with both of the cards and which one will be superior in that situation is a crap shoot.

But TSH definitely wins out vs. jitte/vial. Those are what matter.

Tinkerer sucks except for the occasional SB, because he doesn't follow the goblin plan. He's a tempo sink, and honestly shouldn't be played by anyone. I understand that some people hold on to him tightly because they like having outs, but this is not countertop. This is goblins. We smash and run around our problems, never face them directly. We need to win before they can catch up with their superior spell quality! My opponent should always be fearing pressure. A card being efficient/good does not make it efficient/good in goblins. This is not an ordinary legacy deck and card selection is very picky compared to many other decks, even among the "playable" goblins themselves.

@ Vacrix, agreed. MWM needs to be in your 60 at this point if your meta is anything like Columbus. Instigator doesn't fit well for the Columbus meta, because ports are becoming more and more useful (along with 2cc flex-spot MWM).

GoboLord

08-17-2010, 11:48 AM

3 MWM. I don't like sharing lists that need testing, as I'm still working on it. I will say that I thought Steve Sadin's 60 build for Columbus is close to what I aiming for.

Let me know how explorer goes. I'm interested in hearing. I'm not very optimistic, but I'm open to possibilities.

I'm hesitant to move up to 4 MWM myself, but I see what you are going with with the 3 chieftain. I would just say to make sure to gauge mass removal levels in your meta because your list's easiest way to victory seems to be swarm strategy with some possible overextension. Personally, I don't like to play that way, as what I like about goblins is that I have a little more control over what happens to me compared to generic legacy aggro decks.

These are wise words about pyrokinesis. ScatmanX hits all the major points. I recommend 4 but can understand 3, and possibly 0 if you are trying the perish angle.

Pyrokinesis is a skill testing card. The good players love it, the bad players question it.

How many times does this have to be repeated? Many people have tested, and many people have concluded, that the interaction between warchief and TSH is negligible.

But just watch, five pages down the line, somebody else will mention this.

I don't know why people sometimes obsess over interactions like this by putting them in a vaccuum. It just isn't logical to approach magic that way, at least deck construction, it takes a big picture outlook.

Take, for instance, in the dragon stompy thread, Sword of Fire/Ice + Rakdos Pit Dragon. Countless times testers pointed out that the interaction is negligible (but SOFI's playability was always in somewhat question with moar jittes always available), but countless times random people posted that they aren't playing SOFI because of the drawback.

Back to in regards to tinkerer...It doesn't suicide itself so we got a dorky 2/3 that any card could have made? It can kill chrome mox with the imprint trigger on the stack? These are honestly two of your arguments for tinkerer? Look at the numbers, the artifacts you face day in and day out. Jitte, Vial, those are what matter the most. Most other things are just cute to kill with both of the cards and which one will be superior in that situation is a crap shoot.

But TSH definitely wins out vs. jitte/vial. Those are what matter.

Tinkerer sucks except for the occasional SB, because he doesn't follow the goblin plan. He's a tempo sink, and honestly shouldn't be played by anyone. I understand that some people hold on to him tightly because they like having outs, but this is not countertop. This is goblins. We smash and run around our problems, never face them directly. We need to win before they can catch up with their superior spell quality! My opponent should always be fearing pressure. A card being efficient/good does not make it efficient/good in goblins. This is not an ordinary legacy deck and card selection is very picky compared to many other decks, even among the "playable" goblins themselves.

@ Vacrix, agreed. MWM needs to be in your 60 at this point if your meta is anything like Columbus. Instigator doesn't fit well for the Columbus meta, because ports are becoming more and more useful (along with 2cc flex-spot MWM).

I cannnot tell how much I agree with what you guys (ScratchmanX, Vacrix and FoulQ) said about Pyrokinesis, MWM and TSH.

I cam to the very same conclusion considering Pyrokinesis. I found it bad cause I always removed "slow" cards like Matron and Ringleader to connect Lackey, leaving me with no card to bring in for the trigger. Now that I learned how to use it, I love this card.

On a different topic:

1. What do you guys think of Nature's Claim instead of Krosan Grip (to not lose speed).
2. I tested 3 Goblin Tunneler. I found it great but other cards were more useful and I cut it down to 2, then to 1 copy. I like sneaking Lackey and Piledriver around Fatories and Mutavaults. What do you think? Worth it?

Nidd

08-17-2010, 12:05 PM

I'm not gonna argue with any of you folks about TSH VS Tinkerer. Frist off, you have more experience than i do, secondly, I agree with you. TSH is indeed better than Tinkerer.

But let's imagine you play Mono Red Goblins. You get to choose between Scrapper and Tinkerer - which one is superior? Scrapper is more expensive, but can still attack/block and pings the opponent (yay, marginal upside!).
Also, which one would you say is more important for a Mono Red build - Wasteland or Rishadan Port?

ScatmanX

08-17-2010, 01:40 PM

But let's imagine you play Mono Red Goblins. You get to choose between Scrapper and Tinkerer
Scrapper.
I played with Tinker up until 2 months ago, and realize now that Scrapper is better.
That said, run none of them. Pithing Needle deal with Jitte/Top/nasty things.
Rg can run TSH.

Also, which one would you say is more important for a Mono Red build - Wasteland or Rishadan Port?
Wasteland.
You don't want to just tap a Tabernacle...

ScratchmanX
cute...

@Nature's Claim: I once tested Seal of Primordium, so the deck would curve better, and I wouldn't have to leave mana open, but I think Grip is the best option right now.
@Tunneler: Really don't see it being great, but never tested it (and probably never will...). The deck has won so many good 2drops in the last couple of years, I don't see that one shining more than others...

FoulQ

08-17-2010, 01:53 PM

1. What do you guys think of Nature's Claim instead of Krosan Grip (to not lose speed).
2. I tested 3 Goblin Tunneler. I found it great but other cards were more useful and I cut it down to 2, then to 1 copy. I like sneaking Lackey and Piledriver around Fatories and Mutavaults. What do you think? Worth it?

I have not tested Nature's Claim because I am out of drafting because of money issues (I sold most of my cards except for goblins/merfs). I don't own them currently, as weird as that sounds. But I think they have potential. It would take a lot of testing to decide on them over reliable grip however.

Tunneler doesn't look very good to me. Possibly in a lackey-based build, something like 4x instigator, 3x siege-gang, 2-3x stingscourger, 1-3x chieftain (maximize SGC tokens and instigator double strike), possibly some lightning bolts, possibly soaring seacliffs and/or that red land that makes one creature not block (forgot the name), and 2x tunneler. Pyrokinesis 4x out of the side for lackey connections, possibly a transformative sideboard away from the lackey build. Potential splash for weirding.

This build will fare better against combo but I'm afraid its worse than the other variants of goblins in other matchups. Columbus meta requires MWM, and lackey builds don't have room for him unless you are cutting core cards.

(for the record the other acceptable variants I see are swarm goblins, toolbox goblins, and standard goblins which is what I usually stick to)

ETA: I will note that I tested frenzied goblin back when the goyf craze was at its peak. Every deck seemed like aggro-control UGx with goyf. I thought it would be SO hot and some awesome secret tech paired with my other secret tech, goblin grenade (I even tested trip noose with these two), and I was off to Gencon. All three turned out to be miserably bad at Gencon. MISERABLY. I 0-3 dropped with my horrendous build.

So the whole "can't block" thing, I think is not really that great. Better on paper than in practice.

@ Nidd, I think both are pretty bad, and goblin sideboarding strategies takes a different philosophy. For many decks it's simply, "I'm having a problem with this artifact, so I should play artifact destruction," well, goblins is very rigid in its ultimate gameplan (but very fluid within that gameplan) so a lot of the time the solution is not that easy.

And wasteland 4x in every list without question, please. Port is good in the Columbus meta but not mandatory. If you are not playing a decent number of instigator/chieftain I don't see why you wouldn't run port in MonoR goblins or Rx goblins (3c is a different argument).

Humphrey

08-17-2010, 02:11 PM

Im currently testing Pyrokinesis and im still not convinced. Like a hand with Lackey, Ringleader, Kinesis and 3 Lands after Mull. I play Lackey go, Opponent plays Lynx. I draw another Land..
And i had more of those situations, where it was better to keep the gobs in hand, than pitching into kinesis. Its an awful topdeck, too.
Once i was able to kill 2 Lynx and Pridemage, but that was once in around 10 games.

I dont want to finally decide on that card, and keep testing. But this card looks like some psychological effect, where you remember the situations it shined and forget the situations where it was semigood or crap.

On the nationals ill play Bolts i guess.

ScatmanX

08-17-2010, 02:20 PM

Im currently testing Pyrokinesis and im still not convinced. Like a hand with Lackey, Ringleader, Kinesis and 3 Lands after Mull. I play Lackey go, Opponent plays Lynx. I draw another Land...
So? Just attack and kill Linx. Then proceed do hit land drops, that will win you the game.

If you were on the draw...:
1- If you play Waste/Port, 1 of those 4 lands should do something useful and delay your opponent.
2- If he attacks with Lynx, he will have to a)kill Lackey; b) Cast another guy. Any guy he cast turn 2 you should be able to kill with Knesis, and nail Linx too..

Humphrey

08-17-2010, 02:25 PM

But you obv dont wanna pitch Matrone or Ringleader if ure other cards are lands/vial/Weirdings. Against Merfolk you want to keep Piledriver.

ScatmanX

08-17-2010, 02:36 PM

But you obv dont wanna pitch Matrone or Ringleader if ure other cards are lands/vial/Weirdings. Against Merfolk you want to keep Piledriver.
Agreed. So just don't pitch them.
And if you have Vial/Lands/Weirdings, you have stuff to do with your cards already.

The deal with Knesis, is that you don't necessarily want to cast it right away. You shouldn't get anxious to do it. I only got card disadvantage out of it when I absolutely need to kill a guy, in order to not die, or not to get a dangerous life total (for me is 10 against Zoo).

In my last Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18408-Top-2-with-Rb-Goblins-83-people-tournament) I used Knesis against Folk and Zoo, and only once Bolt would have been better.

Vacrix

08-17-2010, 02:58 PM

Casting Pyrokinesis depends entirely on the board state. Ideally, you want to swing in with your team, and use the extra damage to wipe the opponent's team. In particular against Zoo, you can just play board control, using Matrons to tutor up your Gempalms or Siegegangs. Pyrokinesis supplement this strategy well because it removes their meat wall post-combat.

GoboLord

08-18-2010, 07:25 AM

cute.....

Sorry for calling you "Scratchman" :-D
You can call me "GogoLord" if you want ;-) That makes us even

slaiter

08-18-2010, 11:29 AM

My List in MtgOnline:

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
5 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
//22

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker
//31

//Spells
4 AEther Vial
3 Warren Weirding
//7

//Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyroblast

I'm having problems with burn.
Suggestions?

ScatmanX

08-18-2010, 01:24 PM

I'm having problems with burn.
Suggestions?

Fetch for Basics. Don't play any land you don't need to.
SB in Thorn for WW and KIKI.
Don't overextend and walk into a sweeper.
Don't play Vial late game if you haven't cast one early, so Smash to Smithereens won't hit you.
Kill him before he kills you.

FoulQ

08-18-2010, 01:44 PM

The best cards against burn are goblin lackey and warren instigator. Your opponent can't let them connect.

Likewise, if lackey connections are big, so are burn creatures. Gempalm is meh but pyrokinesis is actually sideboardable if your opponent is playing 8+ creatures sometimes. Especially if they are playing grim, goblin guide, and hellspark. Saves you turns in the damage race and opens up for you lackies.

However thorns get the job done better probably and 7 nongoblins might hurt. It would need testing for your specific decklist and playstyle if you liked it.

And do you really need 3c? I mean, that's your call. But dropping to 2 colors will help you in that matchup.

ETA: 4x piledriver is also helpful versus burn. The matchup is a race, so lackey connections + piledriver is what wins games.

GoboLord

08-18-2010, 02:05 PM

The best cards against burn are goblin lackey and warren instigator. Your opponent can't let them connect.

Likewise, if lackey connections are big, so are burn creatures. Gempalm is meh but pyrokinesis is actually sideboardable if your opponent is playing 8+ creatures sometimes. Especially if they are playing grim, goblin guide, and hellspark. Saves you turns in the damage race and opens up for you lackies.

However thorns get the job done better probably and 7 nongoblins might hurt. It would need testing for your specific decklist and playstyle if you liked it.

And do you really need 3c? I mean, that's your call. But dropping to 2 colors will help you in that matchup.

The reason I would splash B for is that it makes Perish available for SB. I dont think Wort and Weirding are worth splashing B. Maybe you can even cut 1 Badlands and the basic swamp for 2 Mountains. That makes you less vulnerable to Wastelands obv.

jrw1985

08-18-2010, 05:48 PM

I was rockin the goblins at a weekly legacy tournament last Thursday.

Creature (30)
2x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
3x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Stingscourger
2x Warren Instigator

Land (23)
3x Badlands
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
4x Wasteland
3x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (3)
3x Warren Weirding

Artifact (4)
4x AEther Vial

Sideboard (15)

3x Pyrokinesis
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Reverent Silence
4x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Vexing Shusher

Round 1-
GWUB thing with Old Man of the Sea-
He Old Mans a lackey, I gempalm. I play Piledriver. Game 2. Repeat.
2-0
1-0

Round 2-
Survival no Vengivine
Game 1
he's on the play. Turn 1 fetch, Forest. go. I play mountain, lackey, go. He plays forest, Tarmogoyf. Go. I play mountain, and make a huge mistake that I should have known better than to do. I have Gempalm Incinerator in hand and lackey in play. He has a Tamogoyf with only a land in either graveyard, so it's 1/2. I say to myself, "Self, if you attack with your Lackey he has to block, and you can Gempalm his Goyf for the extra 1 point of damage." So I attack with lackey, he blocks, I cycle Gempalm, and my opponent graciously points out that cycling the gempalm adds a Creature card to the graveyard, making goyf 2/3. I hate myself for not knowing how to play against the single most popular beater in the format, and lose the game shortly thereafter.
Game 2
I board in my Leyline of the Voids and reverent silences. My silence hits his turn 2 Survival, but he has another turn 3. It seems like the damage has been done though as he looses steam and I swarm to the win.
Game 3
I don't change my sideboarding. I have a solid, goblin filled opening 7 but no Leyline. I decide to go for it. I'm on the draw. Card #8 is a Leyline. I hate my life. He Retainers an Iona around turn 3 or so, calling red. I have a Vial in play and a gempalm in hand, so I'm still in this. On my last turn I can actually take out Iona if I gempalm into another gempalm, which I don't, but it was still nice knowing I had outs.
1-2
1-1

Round 3
Monoblack
I swarm game 1. He keeps a mana-light hand game 2 and I Port him out of the game.
2-0
2-1

Round 4
Belcher
Game 1
Turn 1, I play Vial. He plays 12 goblins. Turn 2 I counter up vial and cast Tinkerer (my list was slightly different than the one I posted, I just realized). He attacks for 12. I block, take 11, and vial a lackey into play. Turn three cast Cheiftain, attack with lackey, put Siege Gang into play. He concedes shortly thereafter.
Game 2
I side in 4 Thorn of Amethyst and 3 Pyrokinesis. He Belches turn 1.
Game 3
I mull to six with a hand of lackey, piledriver, pyrokinesis, thorn and lands. My hand has the potential to get something going off of good topdecks. I pray he's not able to go off till turn two as I cast my lackey. He goes off turn 1 for about 12 guys again. I die shortly thereafter.
1-2
2-2

What I would do differently---
Fuck Leyline of the Void. Seriously. Drawing it as card 8 third game of the second match punished me for keeping a solid hand. Were it a Crypt, Relic, or Planar Void I would have won that game easy. I used to lean on Leyline because Reanimator was a matchup you would see every day. Now it's a fringe deck and recursion strategies are much slower. DON'T PLAY LEYLINE! I'm taking the 4 Leyline out of my SB and replacing with a Crypt, a Relic, And a Planar Void. 4 graveyard hate spots to 3 because it's not as necessary anymore, I feel. Leyline just isn't worth mulling to and is a dead-draw. People kept saying it and I just now am starting to believe them.
I'm adding in Mindbreak Trap. I'm thinking 3 Mindbreak and 3 Thorn in SB, replacing 1 Leyline and 1 Shusher. 6 combo hate cards a little much? Absolutely, but I hate feeling that I don't have a chance against them otherwise. Goblins can only kill turn 4 (turn three under perfect conditions) which is just too slow to expect to win against combo in general. Since it's our worst matchup I feel it should be sided most heavily against. Please feel free to disagree, but I want to hear some solid reasons why, dammit.

JonBarber

08-18-2010, 06:02 PM

jrw1985

08-19-2010, 03:28 AM

First of all, issues with the maindeck. 3 colors yet your running the full set of wastes and ports? My general rule is 4 wastes and 4 ports is okay if playing mono red, 4 wastes 2 ports if playing Rx, and no ports if playing 2 splash. Also, 3 matron?? Matron should be an automatic 4 of.

Next, sb. I'm really not a big fan of thorns or mindbreak trap. They're both pretty bad. Chalice is really the best option. 2nd, leyline is bad now. Since dredge and reanimator are in much smaller numbers, your okay without it. Planar void is definitely the way to go. Reverant silence also seems really bad, but I guess its playable.

You crazy, Boo. Full sets of Waste and Port works just fine. I just ran 50 playtests to make sure, and I only needed to mull 3 times because of being mana screwed. It is not even a problem when you're rocking the duals. Dual lands, Man! And Fetches! No problem! You realize fetches make it so I essentially have 8 Taigas and 9 badlands, right? Tell me how your odds of getting mana-screwed are any different running three color than mono-red. Oh, wait. It isn't. Is it more vulnerable to denial strategies that prey on non-basics? Yes. Does it make Price of Progress scarier? Yes. Will the deck be improved by pulling a Port or two for Mountains? No. It will more consistently have Red mana. I would rather have the mana denial considering we cheat everything into play anyway. I think it works, and I haven't heard any solid evidence to the contrary. I would be open to it though, if anyone actually has a reason that consists of more than their preferences.

Matron- Why do you need 4? I don't need 4. I'm always searching for Ringleader anyway, and I don't just want to draw a bunch of Matrons. having too many Matrons around can be a hinderance. They are only good as chump blockers once they're in play, and many times you just need a goblin in play that actually does something, and instead you're stuck on a Matron. Also (and MOST importantly), running 3 instead of 4 is not going to change the way the deck plays. Matron is not nearly as important as Lackey or Vial.

I haven't had the chance to playtest Chalice. What makes it so much better than Thorn or Mindbreak? Is it that it stops Silences and discard? I want to know why it's better against Combo, especially since I haven't seen successful decks SBing it recently. I just went and looked at the StarCityGames Legacy Open lists for the tourneys all the way back to Madrid. Can you guess how many of the top placing Goblin decks ran Chalice of the Void? C'mon, guess. Ready now? 0. Exactly 0 Chalice of the Voids have been in top placing Goblin decks going back to Madrid. Lots of Cabal Therapies, Traps, and Thorns though. So if you have a great reason for saying it's clearly better than Trap or Thorn, I would love to hear it.

Reverent Silence does blow, but so many enchantresses and moats are floating around, along with Survival, Propogandas and CoP:R. It gives a chance to wipe the board of certain kinds of control. And it's free, which fits the theme how most of the rest of the deck comes into play. It's not a perfect solution by a long shot, but it seems fairly strong against a lot of the meta.

Nelis

08-19-2010, 04:08 AM

You crazy, Boo. Full sets of Waste and Port works just fine. I just ran 50 playtests to make sure, and I only needed to mull 3 times because of being mana screwed. It is not even a problem when you're rocking the duals. Dual lands, Man! And Fetches! No problem! You realize fetches make it so I essentially have 8 Taigas and 9 badlands, right? Tell me how your odds of getting mana-screwed are any different running three color than mono-red. Oh, wait. It isn't. Is it more vulnerable to denial strategies that prey on non-basics? Yes. Does it make Price of Progress scarier? Yes. Will the deck be improved by pulling a Port or two for Mountains? No. It will more consistently have Red mana. I would rather have the mana denial considering we cheat everything into play anyway. I think it works, and I haven't heard any solid evidence to the contrary. I would be open to it though, if anyone actually has a reason that consists of more than their preferences.

1. Wasteland is in the top 5 of most played cards in Legacy you don't want to be too vulnerable to it.
2. If you are not able to cheat creatures into play you are screwed.
3. What use is mana denial strategy if you can't put any pressure on the board? 15 'red mana sources' is very little.

The odds that you get mana screwed are way higher than with Monored because it is more easy to hate non-basics than basics. Mono red does not have to worry about its mana base at all. It's basically impossible to get screwed on. Wasteland and Stifle can really screw you.

If you do not land a Vial or Lackey you need at least 2 red mana sources to be able to play anything in the deck.

It seems to me that you rely too much on either Vial or Lackey to sneak stuff in play.

Matron- Why do you need 4? I don't need 4. I'm always searching for Ringleader anyway, and I don't just want to draw a bunch of Matrons. having too many Matrons around can be a hinderance. They are only good as chump blockers once they're in play, and many times you just need a goblin in play that actually does something, and instead you're stuck on a Matron. Also (and MOST importantly), running 3 instead of 4 is not going to change the way the deck plays. Matron is not nearly as important as Lackey or Vial.

It gets you any card you need at any given moment, thats why you always play 4. The same argument you use for fetch lands can be used here. You have 8 Ringleaders, 8 Piledrivers, 8 Warchief etc. And when I look at your list I see you only run 3 removal (edit: 6, you also have weirdings) so you definitely need Matrons there.

I'm glad more people are starting to realize Leyline of the Void sucks. Because it does.

slaiter

08-19-2010, 07:30 AM

so:
-1 Badlands
-1 Fetch
-1 Gempalm

+2 Mountain
+1 Warren Instigator(is viable?)

I never have drop 2cc(except Piledriver).

GoboLord

08-19-2010, 04:05 PM

The degree to which Ports + Wastes are disturbing is not dependent from how many colors you play. You have 6-8 fetches + 2-3 copies of Badlans/Taiga in deck (no matter if you run Ports or not).
What makes 8 colorless mana sources problemetic is the number of RR-spells you run. I'm not saying that you cant support RR at any time, but it makes it harder to play 2 Goblins in one round (let's say: Chieftain + Piledriver) that require RRR. With Ports in deck it's harder to get those RRR.
This is exactly why I find your list strange: you run 5 additional RR spells (Instigator, Chieftain) which I would cut for 1R spells (like more Gempalms and Stingscourger) - if you want to keep them (or run even more copies) I'd think about cutting Ports.
Screwing Goblins is possible, but difficult. Your list in particular is mono R preboard (except from Weirdings), which I find good. I'd even think about cutting weirdings because (as you said) Reanimator is not an omipresent deck anymore.

ScatmanX

08-19-2010, 04:32 PM

Matron- Why do you need 4? I don't need 4. I'm always searching for Ringleader anyway, and I don't just want to draw a bunch of Matrons. having too many Matrons around can be a hinderance. They are only good as chump blockers once they're in play, and many times you just need a goblin in play that actually does something, and instead you're stuck on a Matron. Also (and MOST importantly), running 3 instead of 4 is not going to change the way the deck plays. Matron is not nearly as important as Lackey or Vial.
Common guys, he's seriously trolling.

I think it works, and I haven't heard any solid evidence to the contrary.
Yeah, your 2-2 proves that...

JonBarber

08-19-2010, 08:14 PM

I haven't had the chance to playtest Chalice. What makes it so much better than Thorn or Mindbreak? Is it that it stops Silences and discard? I want to know why it's better against Combo, especially since I haven't seen successful decks SBing it recently. I just went and looked at the StarCityGames Legacy Open lists for the tourneys all the way back to Madrid. Can you guess how many of the top placing Goblin decks ran Chalice of the Void? C'mon, guess. Ready now? 0. Exactly 0 Chalice of the Voids have been in top placing Goblin decks going back to Madrid. Lots of Cabal Therapies, Traps, and Thorns though. So if you have a great reason for saying it's clearly better than Trap or Thorn, I would love to hear it.

Well for starters, I'll use your words:

And it's free, which fits the theme how most of the rest of the deck comes into play.

Chalice is dropped for zero, turn 1, shutting off 12 vital cards in your opponents deck. It dodges duress's better than any other kind of hate, and doesn't touch your tempo. You drop chalice and T1 lackey. Dropping T2 chalice@1 is way more devestating than thorn or any other hate.

Cabal Therpies and Duress are good, but they slow you down. Your not going to STOP combo, and that shouldn't be your plan. You want to disrupt them for long enough to kill them. If your slowing yourself down to slow them down, your right back where you ended up. Not to mention, they play brainstorms and ponders. They'll keep their important cards safe.

Thorn is slow, and can be played through. Its also just about as susceptible to duress as mindbreak trap is.

Mindbreak trap is just well, terrible. Every good storm player will be ready for you to bring in hate against them, and they SHOULD always duress you before going off. Sure you'll catch bad players with it, but chalice is a whole hell of a lot harder to deal with for bad players anyways.

Chalice is also usable in non-combo matchups as well. I often board it in against zoo because a chalice @1 makes our life a lot easier.

So now if YOU have a great reason for saying Trap or Thorn is clearly better than chalice, I would love to hear it.

GoboLord

08-20-2010, 06:10 AM

Well for starters, I'll use your words:

Chalice is dropped for zero, turn 1, shutting off 12 vital cards in your opponents deck. It dodges duress's better than any other kind of hate, and doesn't touch your tempo. You drop chalice and T1 lackey. Dropping T2 chalice@1 is way more devestating than thorn or any other hate.

Cabal Therpies and Duress are good, but they slow you down. Your not going to STOP combo, and that shouldn't be your plan. You want to disrupt them for long enough to kill them. If your slowing yourself down to slow them down, your right back where you ended up. Not to mention, they play brainstorms and ponders. They'll keep their important cards safe.

Thorn is slow, and can be played through. Its also just about as susceptible to duress as mindbreak trap is.

Mindbreak trap is just well, terrible. Every good storm player will be ready for you to bring in hate against them, and they SHOULD always duress you before going off. Sure you'll catch bad players with it, but chalice is a whole hell of a lot harder to deal with for bad players anyways.

Chalice is also usable in non-combo matchups as well. I often board it in against zoo because a chalice @1 makes our life a lot easier.

So now if YOU have a great reason for saying Trap or Thorn is clearly better than chalice, I would love to hear it.

Agreed!

But why do you bring in Chalice against Zoo? I personally consider every creature in my deck to be more valuable against Zoo than Chalice.
I test this strategy too but I found myself losing one turn for nothing, cause they just switch to playing Goyfs/Pridemages/Knights and destoy Chalice via Pridemage when they have to.

Nelis

08-20-2010, 06:29 AM

Wise words indeed.

What would you guys board out against combo to put 4 Chalice in?

I would take out Vials because I think they're too slow and happen to be the only non-goblins in the deck so the amount of goblins are not lessened.

Humphrey

08-20-2010, 08:07 AM

Weirdings, Scourger, Incinerators obv.

JonBarber

08-20-2010, 08:27 AM

Agreed!

But why do you bring in Chalice against Zoo? I personally consider every creature in my deck to be more valuable against Zoo than Chalice.
I test this strategy too but I found myself losing one turn for nothing, cause they just switch to playing Goyfs/Pridemages/Knights and destoy Chalice via Pridemage when they have to.

It depends on the type of zoo. For zoo with pridemages, goyfs, and knights chalice stays at home. But the more sligh type zoo that plays more burn and more 1cc stuff, chalice actually has a significant effect.

Wise words indeed.

What would you guys board out against combo to put 4 Chalice in?

I would take out Vials because I think they're too slow and happen to be the only non-goblins in the deck so the amount of goblins are not lessened.

Yeah, weirdings and stingscourger is usually my cut. Vial can actually be effective in pumping out two goblins a turn. Obviously not as ideal as lackey turn 1, but it can still provide a speedy kill.

Nelis

08-20-2010, 09:11 AM

I play MonoR. I completely forgot about Incinerators and Stingscourger, they can go out vs non dredge combo indeed. Would you also take (some of) them out vs dredge?

ScatmanX

08-20-2010, 01:09 PM

I play MonoR. I completely forgot about Incinerators and Stingscourger, they can go out vs non dredge combo indeed. Would you also take (some of) them out vs dredge?

Post a list and SB, than we cab give some insight.
Agains Dredge, I usual take out Piledrivers, Ringleaders, Chieftains...
Vial is good, since it allows you to use Waste and Port.
I would not take out Sting or Gempalm, because they can Kill/Bounce Putrid Imp, delaying they're combo, and can remove Bridges, by dieing or killing your own goblins (I even hesitate on take Weirdings out here, but that depends on how many cards we have to bring in).

For the record, I was playing Planar Void, but now Faerie Macabre has became my yard hate of choice now. Being uncounterable, free, instant, not a spell, is so good. It's not awesome against Ichorid, but its already very nice, since they usually don't are luck enough to keep a hand with 3+ Dredgers. And it great against Survival, Loam, Reanimator, and even Combo (if they go for Igg loop (It works trough Orim's Chant!!)).

jrw1985

08-20-2010, 03:45 PM

Common guys, he's seriously trolling.

Yeah, your 2-2 proves that...

Trolling? i wrote a 4 paragraph post. How is that Trolling?

And going 2-2 had nothing to do with my mana base in any game. Really, I'm not just making things up.

I'm serious about crowdsourcing information to optimize my build and play. If you are so dogmatic in your approach to deckbuilds that you can only see a suggestion of running a card 3 instead of 4-of as Trolling then I don't see why you'd bother contributing to the conversation at all.

That being said, in the games I played last night against Zoo Matron was invaluable in keeping my hand stocked, which is the only way to grind out a win against Zoo. I believe that a Goblin deck that can beat Zoo is most well positioned in the meta. So I will be running 4-of Matrons from here on out.

jrw1985

08-20-2010, 04:43 PM

Chalice is dropped for zero, turn 1, shutting off 12 vital cards in your opponents deck. It dodges duress's better than any other kind of hate, and doesn't touch your tempo. You drop chalice and T1 lackey. Dropping T2 chalice@1 is way more devestating than thorn or any other hate.

...

Thorn is slow, and can be played through. Its also just about as susceptible to duress as mindbreak trap is.

Mindbreak trap is just well, terrible. Every good storm player will be ready for you to bring in hate against them, and they SHOULD always duress you before going off. Sure you'll catch bad players with it, but chalice is a whole hell of a lot harder to deal with for bad players anyways.

Chalice is also usable in non-combo matchups as well. I often board it in against zoo because a chalice @1 makes our life a lot easier.

So now if YOU have a great reason for saying Trap or Thorn is clearly better than chalice, I would love to hear it.

I played against Epic Storm last night and went 2-0 against it. She kept a hand game one with 3 Ponders that she thought could get there, and I killed her turn 4. I got lucky with that one (actually, turn 4 kill is entirely expected from Goblins; she was unlucky). Game 2 I sided in 3 thorn and 3 Mindbreak traps. I had an opening hand of Vial, Thorn, Thorn, Tinkerer and lands. She played a land. I played Vial. She played another land. Go. I had a chance. I played Thorn. She said "Shit". She payed 3 to cast 3 Lotus Petals. I payed 3 to cast another Thorn. She payed 2 to cast a Chrome Mox, but didn't imprint. The game was over shortly thereafter. Had I played Chalice for 0 turn one she would have had much less chance to get back in the game, and I think in this scenario I would have been strickly better off running Chalice. Also, i'm intrigued by the idea of running Chalice against Zoo occassionally.
HOWEVER, my caveat against Chalice comes from none-other than GP Columbus Top 8...
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/welcome#1[Deck]-Vial-Goblins/page253
Tom Martell, Jason Ford, Korey Age, and Christopher Gosselin all played decks where a Chalice at 0 or 1 would not take them out of the game. Bryant Cook was the only top 8er whose deck was running 12 0cc spells, against which Chalice would be exceptional. The results speak for themselves, I think. Of the top 8 decks at GP Columbus, half could be severly slowed down with Thorn by itself. Couple Thorn with classic Goblin mana denial (i.e. Ports and Wastes) and suddenly resolving Show and Tell, Seathing Song, Sneak Attack, FOW, Jace, Deed, Doomsday, Ad Nauseum, Solitary confinement, K-GRIP, Cunning Wish, Oblivion Ring, FIRESPOUT, becomes much, much more difficult. Against half the field of the top 8 Thorn is definitely better than Chalice. It is more versatile against a wider variety of decks, and therefor more likely to be of help in the SB, if also less likely to really lock an opponent out of the game.
The difference in running Chalice v Thorn probably comes to a matter of perspective. Chalice tries to lock an opponent out. Thorn tries to slow them down, making every subsequent spell they play less efficient/economical (Would you play Brainstorm if it cost U1?). Chalice is certainly better at locking an opponent out of the game, but only if their mana curve is ridiculously low. And, if you're facing a Storm deck, Chalice doesn't actually prevent them from casting their spells. They can still play 4 0cc spells, they just all get countered, but casting them still adds to the Storm count. Thorn denys them the ability to cast the spell in the first place.
So, in summation, Thorn is more versatile against many more decks than Chalice, if slightly slower. But versatility is paramount in Magic, so I believe Thorn is ultimately the more robust SB choice.

Mindbreak Trap on the other hand? Well, it's the only card we can run that will keep us from being comboed on turn 1 when we're on the draw. I know this is a piss-poor reason to run it, but I cannot stand thinking that I have no chance against a T-1 Belcher game 2 or 3. That's all. I've got no excuse for running it besides thinking that there are games where it is literally my only hope.

ScatmanX

08-20-2010, 05:02 PM

So, just wanted to share what I've been currently thinking with goblins.
As much as I love my Rb version, theres 1 thing that gets me down: All my SB cards are non-goblins.
That means, every single g2 and g3 I play, Ringleader is worse than g1.
After having a lot of Ringleader disappoint me after SBing 8-10 cards, I wanted to change something.

With that in mind, I wondered if there could be a list (monoRed here), that could change goblins for goblins in the MU's we needed.
Let me explain what I'm talking about.
First off, list:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Warmarchall
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscouer
3 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Tuktuk the Explorer

So, here we have a strong plan against pretty much every agroo deck.
It is also good against Firespout decks and sweepers from Zoo, as well as E.Plague, due to 3 Liege and 1 TukTuk.

Now, what do I want with my sideboard?
1- to have something good against Counterbalance.
2- to have something good against against Folk.
3- to have something good against Combo.
4- to have something good against Survival (and grave-based decks).

So, to adress all those points, here's what I came up:
4 Warren Instigator
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Grave hate of choice (mine is Faerie Macabre)
3 Combo hate of choice (don't have one specific)
1 TukTuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

- adressing point 1: 4WI, 2Driver, instead of 4MWM, 1Shooter, 1Tuktuk. That makes the deck way stronger against CB, without diluting.
- adressing point 2: 2Driver, 1 Shooter, for 1MWM, 1Port, 1Sting. 2 Shooters and 3 Drivers, with 4 Gempalms fuck with folk really good. Cand bring Scrapper for Jitte also.
- adressing point 3: 4 Faeries, 4WI, 2 Driver, 3 Combo, take out Ringleaders, Gempalm, whatever. Here you can dilute, since you're not going to win via CA.
4- Macabre.

What do you guys think?
This deck have a strong plan against a big chunk of the field. Also, if you want to improve certain MU's, you don't have to make Ringleaders worse. Against Emrakul, you can up the Stinger count. Against Elves, Folk, mirror, the Sharpshooter. Sweepers? Tuktuk Explorer... Goyf problem? Change Faerie for Relics.
In all MU's it matters, the goblins count stay in an average of 30.

Well, thats it for now.
Any thoughts?

JonBarber

08-20-2010, 07:08 PM

I played against Epic Storm last night and went 2-0 against it. She kept a hand game one with 3 Ponders that she thought could get there, and I killed her turn 4. I got lucky with that one (actually, turn 4 kill is entirely expected from Goblins; she was unlucky). Game 2 I sided in 3 thorn and 3 Mindbreak traps. I had an opening hand of Vial, Thorn, Thorn, Tinkerer and lands. She played a land. I played Vial. She played another land. Go. I had a chance. I played Thorn. She said "Shit". She payed 3 to cast 3 Lotus Petals. I payed 3 to cast another Thorn. She payed 2 to cast a Chrome Mox, but didn't imprint. The game was over shortly thereafter. Had I played Chalice for 0 turn one she would have had much less chance to get back in the game, and I think in this scenario I would have been strickly better off running Chalice. Also, i'm intrigued by the idea of running Chalice against Zoo occassionally.
HOWEVER, my caveat against Chalice comes from none-other than GP Columbus Top 8...
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-[Deck]-Vial-Goblins/page253
Tom Martell, Jason Ford, Korey Age, and Christopher Gosselin all played decks where a Chalice at 0 or 1 would not take them out of the game. Bryant Cook was the only top 8er whose deck was running 12 0cc spells, against which Chalice would be exceptional. The results speak for themselves, I think. Of the top 8 decks at GP Columbus, half could be severly slowed down with Thorn by itself. Couple Thorn with classic Goblin mana denial (i.e. Ports and Wastes) and suddenly resolving Show and Tell, Seathing Song, Sneak Attack, FOW, Jace, Deed, Doomsday, Ad Nauseum, Solitary confinement, K-GRIP, Cunning Wish, Oblivion Ring, FIRESPOUT, becomes much, much more difficult. Against half the field of the top 8 Thorn is definitely better than Chalice. It is more versatile against a wider variety of decks, and therefor more likely to be of help in the SB, if also less likely to really lock an opponent out of the game.
The difference in running Chalice v Thorn probably comes to a matter of perspective. Chalice tries to lock an opponent out. Thorn tries to slow them down, making every subsequent spell they play less efficient/economical (Would you play Brainstorm if it cost U1?). Chalice is certainly better at locking an opponent out of the game, but only if their mana curve is ridiculously low. And, if you're facing a Storm deck, Chalice doesn't actually prevent them from casting their spells. They can still play 4 0cc spells, they just all get countered, but casting them still adds to the Storm count. Thorn denys them the ability to cast the spell in the first place.
So, in summation, Thorn is more versatile against many more decks than Chalice, if slightly slower. But versatility is paramount in Magic, so I believe Thorn is ultimately the more robust SB choice.

Mindbreak Trap on the other hand? Well, it's the only card we can run that will keep us from being comboed on turn 1 when we're on the draw. I know this is a piss-poor reason to run it, but I cannot stand thinking that I have no chance against a T-1 Belcher game 2 or 3. That's all. I've got no excuse for running it besides thinking that there are games where it is literally my only hope.

Boarding thorn against heavy spell based decks just seems bad. Your diluting your ringleaders to make your opponents spells cost more. Your attempting to make an aggro deck far more controllish than you should be. We run the mana denial because we have vial and ways to cheat guys into play, but when your diluting the deck to disrupt your opponent that just seems weak. Whether your oppenent's firespout costs 3vs4 really isn't that big of an issue. The fact still remains that they are going to firespout you. Also, most decks are already bringing in artifact hate for your vials, its not like they won't have a way to blow up your thorns.

We have different, more specific maindeck or sb cards for those matchups. We have a naturally good matchup vs fish (hence saito's 6 hate cards), very good matchup vs counterbalance (hence the maindeck firespout), and we bring in grave hate for survival based decks (things like this is why I prefer planar void type gravehate solutions) and other bad matchups. I don't think boarding in thorns vs any of these decks is the correct call.

From past experience playing belcher, mindbreak trap is easy to play around. You just drop your artifact mana t1, T2 drop belcher and activate. Chalice on the other hand does not allow that luxury.

So, just wanted to share what I've been currently thinking with goblins.
As much as I love my Rb version, theres 1 thing that gets me down: All my SB cards are non-goblins.
That means, every single g2 and g3 I play, Ringleader is worse than g1.
After having a lot of Ringleader disappoint me after SBing 8-10 cards, I wanted to change something.

With that in mind, I wondered if there could be a list (monoRed here), that could change goblins for goblins in the MU's we needed.
Let me explain what I'm talking about.
First off, list:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Warmarchall
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscouer
3 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Tuktuk the Explorer

So, here we have a strong plan against pretty much every agroo deck.
It is also good against Firespout decks and sweepers from Zoo, as well as E.Plague, due to 3 Liege and 1 TukTuk.

Now, what do I want with my sideboard?
1- to have something good against Counterbalance.
2- to have something good against against Folk.
3- to have something good against Combo.
4- to have something good against Survival (and grave-based decks).

So, to adress all those points, here's what I came up:
4 Warren Instigator
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Grave hate of choice (mine is Faerie Macabre)
3 Combo hate of choice (don't have one specific)
1 TukTuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

- adressing point 1: 4WI, 2Driver, instead of 4MWM, 1Shooter, 1Tuktuk. That makes the deck way stronger against CB, without diluting.
- adressing point 2: 2Driver, 1 Shooter, for 1MWM, 1Port, 1Sting. 2 Shooters and 3 Drivers, with 4 Gempalms fuck with folk really good. Cand bring Scrapper for Jitte also.
- adressing point 3: 4 Faeries, 4WI, 2 Driver, 3 Combo, take out Ringleaders, Gempalm, whatever. Here you can dilute, since you're not going to win via CA.
4- Macabre.

What do you guys think?
This deck have a strong plan against a big chunk of the field. Also, if you want to improve certain MU's, you don't have to make Ringleaders worse. Against Emrakul, you can up the Stinger count. Against Elves, Folk, mirror, the Sharpshooter. Sweepers? Tuktuk Explorer... Goyf problem? Change Faerie for Relics.
In all MU's it matters, the goblins count stay in an average of 30.

Well, thats it for now.
Any thoughts?

It would be great if we didn't have to resort to non-goblin answers for the sb, but theres a reason they are there. Goblin cards simply aren't good enough.

Also, zero piledrivers maindeck? Hes what makes this deck insane, especially vs blue decks. Liege seems like a very weak maindeck card. Also, siege-gang commander is insane, you definitely need at least two.

When playing mono-r, I prefer to run instigators maindeck because you rarely have a problem reaching RR, and then play 3 scg to get the most out of it.

ScatmanX

08-20-2010, 09:35 PM

Also, zero piledrivers maindeck?

Reading is tech:

1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Tuktuk the Explorer
Also, I've seen (mostly by M3d1A (forgot the nick)), and played myself, some piledreverless lists that had no problems defeating folks...

When playing mono-r, I prefer to run instigators maindeck because you rarely have a problem reaching RR, and then play 3 scg to get the most out of it.
And what version of goblins play 4 Instigators MD? Here, if you want, you can play them, and have the MWM side. Its up to you.
Also, you can easely cut Tuktuk and Sharpshooter for more SGC. It's also up to you.

What I'm wondering is: Is maximazing the deck consistency by always running 30+ goblins worth the lost of cards like P.Needle, ReB and Knesis.
I think that, with our 15 SB slots we can make it work. The only problem is that that aren't goblins that remove graveyards, or that stop combo (yeah, there's Earwig Squad, but I'm trying to keep monored).

jin

08-21-2010, 01:31 AM

I played against Epic Storm last night and went 2-0 against it. She kept a hand game one with 3 Ponders that she thought could get there, and I killed her turn 4. I got lucky with that one (actually, turn 4 kill is entirely expected from Goblins; she was unlucky). Game 2 I sided in 3 thorn and 3 Mindbreak traps. I had an opening hand of Vial, Thorn, Thorn, Tinkerer and lands. She played a land. I played Vial. She played another land. Go. I had a chance. I played Thorn. She said "Shit". She payed 3 to cast 3 Lotus Petals. I payed 3 to cast another Thorn. She payed 2 to cast a Chrome Mox, but didn't imprint. The game was over shortly thereafter. Had I played Chalice for 0 turn one she would have had much less chance to get back in the game, and I think in this scenario I would have been strickly better off running Chalice. Also, i'm intrigued by the idea of running Chalice against Zoo occassionally.
HOWEVER, my caveat against Chalice comes from none-other than GP Columbus Top 8...
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-[Deck]-Vial-Goblins/page253
Tom Martell, Jason Ford, Korey Age, and Christopher Gosselin all played decks where a Chalice at 0 or 1 would not take them out of the game. Bryant Cook was the only top 8er whose deck was running 12 0cc spells, against which Chalice would be exceptional. The results speak for themselves, I think. Of the top 8 decks at GP Columbus, half could be severly slowed down with Thorn by itself. Couple Thorn with classic Goblin mana denial (i.e. Ports and Wastes) and suddenly resolving Show and Tell, Seathing Song, Sneak Attack, FOW, Jace, Deed, Doomsday, Ad Nauseum, Solitary confinement, K-GRIP, Cunning Wish, Oblivion Ring, FIRESPOUT, becomes much, much more difficult. Against half the field of the top 8 Thorn is definitely better than Chalice. It is more versatile against a wider variety of decks, and therefor more likely to be of help in the SB, if also less likely to really lock an opponent out of the game.
The difference in running Chalice v Thorn probably comes to a matter of perspective. Chalice tries to lock an opponent out. Thorn tries to slow them down, making every subsequent spell they play less efficient/economical (Would you play Brainstorm if it cost U1?). Chalice is certainly better at locking an opponent out of the game, but only if their mana curve is ridiculously low. And, if you're facing a Storm deck, Chalice doesn't actually prevent them from casting their spells. They can still play 4 0cc spells, they just all get countered, but casting them still adds to the Storm count. Thorn denys them the ability to cast the spell in the first place.
So, in summation, Thorn is more versatile against many more decks than Chalice, if slightly slower. But versatility is paramount in Magic, so I believe Thorn is ultimately the more robust SB choice.

Mindbreak Trap on the other hand? Well, it's the only card we can run that will keep us from being comboed on turn 1 when we're on the draw. I know this is a piss-poor reason to run it, but I cannot stand thinking that I have no chance against a T-1 Belcher game 2 or 3. That's all. I've got no excuse for running it besides thinking that there are games where it is literally my only hope.

Sorry, I'd just like to point oout that the cards you bolded for the reasons thorn is more useful is kind of pointless. Those cards are only played in countertop decks which we have a good match up against, so I don't think we'd be bringing them in.

THe point of chalice is not versatility, it is effectiveness against combo. Chalice makes them search for a solution instead of go for combo peices in the first few turns which buys us time. Thorn doens't hit until turn 2, which means that the combo player is comfortable to kill you until then. The strategy being played by playing chalice is that you are relying on chalice tto be a psychological threat while your goblins do the real job. Thorn is also a psychological threat, but it comes down much later and you are relying more heavily on it from dying. If you are also using port/wastelands in conjunction with thorn, then you probably aern't casting very many goblins.

Thorn against Ad Nauseum is also laughable since Ad Nauseum is an instant. Thorn just hurts the mana producers which chalice is better at doing.

What I'm wondering is: Is maximazing the deck consistency by always running 30+ goblins worth the lost of cards like P.Needle, ReB and Knesis.
I think that, with our 15 SB slots we can make it work. The only problem is that that aren't goblins that remove graveyards, or that stop combo (yeah, there's Earwig Squad, but I'm trying to keep monored).

Yeah we all want that. We are just waiting for wizard to print us out some better cards.. LOL. Unless we get double piledriver we aren't hating out combo and unless we get a goblin macebre, we aren't hating out the yard. You just have to learn to rely less on Goblin Ringleader game 2/3 and more on Goblin Matron for your card advantage.

You shouldn't play subpar sideboard cards just because they are Goblins and you shouldn't move mainboard cards just so you can board in stuff. 3x boartusk leige in the main does seem like a very bad idea. He's a very big investment with almost litle return. Well, not little, he's just too defensive for the goblin strategy. Maybe pyromancer in his place is better = )

jrw1985

08-21-2010, 02:58 AM

Sorry, I'd just like to point oout that the cards you bolded for the reasons thorn is more useful is kind of pointless. Those cards are only played in countertop decks which we have a good match up against, so I don't think we'd be bringing them in.

THe point of chalice is not versatility, it is effectiveness against combo. Chalice makes them search for a solution instead of go for combo peices in the first few turns which buys us time. Thorn doens't hit until turn 2, which means that the combo player is comfortable to kill you until then. The strategy being played by playing chalice is that you are relying on chalice tto be a psychological threat while your goblins do the real job. Thorn is also a psychological threat, but it comes down much later and you are relying more heavily on it from dying. If you are also using port/wastelands in conjunction with thorn, then you probably aern't casting very many goblins.

Thorn against Ad Nauseum is also laughable since Ad Nauseum is an instant. Thorn just hurts the mana producers which chalice is better at doing.

I disagree with your reasonings. Yes, we have a great match-up against CounterTop, but CounterTop is nowhere near the ONLY deck running the cards listed and highlighted. And I wasn't listing the cards to make the case that Thorn boosts our chances against CounterTop! I was illustrating that 5 of the top 8 decks were 75%+ Non-Creature spells. Against these decks Chalice would be mostly useless (with the noted exception of Bryant Cook's ANT). HOWEVER, Thorn against these decks can slow them down considerably, and when combined with mana-denial it can take them out of the game.

I don't think Chalice is effective against combo. It cannot stop the mechanics that make combo go off. All it can stop is Petal, Chrome Mox, and LED. Those are the only 3 cards Chalice could ever come in against. That means it's only useful against a very narrow range of decks. Thorn slows the pace way, way down, which gives Goblins more time to get their Mojo going.

Psychological threat? Well... If I played a deck that tried to cast 10 spells in one turn I'd be more concered about coming up with 10 extra mana than I would be about 2 of those spells being countered...
Also, you seem to concede that Chalice is only good against Belcher and ANT, since you are advocating playing it for 0. Both those decks can easily play around Chalice without having to get rid of it. Belcher has Land Grant, Simian Spirit Guide, and Elven Spirit Guide to get the ball rolling. And ANT has Brainstorm and Ponder to sculpt a hand that can go off with Dark Ritual and the like.

Thorn isn't good against Ad Nauseum?...
You do realize that you're supposedly advocating Chalice as a stronger card choice than Thorn, right? Or did I just make the classic error of assuming that people who take the time to write would have also taken the time to think about what they're writing? The statement "Thorn against Ad Nauseum is also laughable since Ad Nauseum is an instant," makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Chalice does diddly-squat against Ad Nauseum! Thorn makes it cost 1 more! That's the whole point to running Thorn! It effects all those expensive cards that Chalice will never ever ever touch.

" Thorn just hurts the mana producers which chalice is better at doing."
NO! Thorn hurts everything NON-CREATURE in a COMBO deck. Chalice turn 0 stops only 3 cards that are ever played.

I have not been convinced that Chalice is better for anything other than countering Petal, LED, and Chrome mox. What I have been convinced of, however, is that when people see the word "Counter" in conjunction with "Spell" that they automatically assume that's the best possible outcome.

jrw1985

08-21-2010, 03:25 AM

Nelis

08-21-2010, 02:24 PM

I play MonoR. I completely forgot about Incinerators and Stingscourger, they can go out vs non dredge combo indeed. Would you also take (some of) them out vs dredge?

Post a list and SB, than we cab give some insight.
Agains Dredge, I usual take out Piledrivers, Ringleaders, Chieftains...
Vial is good, since it allows you to use Waste and Port.
I would not take out Sting or Gempalm, because they can Kill/Bounce Putrid Imp, delaying they're combo, and can remove Bridges, by dieing or killing your own goblins (I even hesitate on take Weirdings out here, but that depends on how many cards we have to bring in).

I changed it a bit since the last time. I have taken out 1 War Marshal and 2 Chieftains and added 1 Stingscourger and 2 Warchiefs.

Right now this is it:

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Sting Scourger
4 Goblin Warchief

//Artifacts
4 AEther Vial

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Mogg War Marshal
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus ( Maybe make this Tormod's Crypt)
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyrokinesis

and

4 Chalice of the void - But I dont know if I will keep these in. I'm thinking maybe making these Warren Instigators to side in against combo but I don't know if thats good enough.

Humphrey

08-21-2010, 08:58 PM

I did play Gobbos at German Nationals Sideevent, ending 46th of 208 Players. Maybe ill try to get the plays together tomorrow. Now im goin to sleep after a 22h day xD

JonBarber

08-21-2010, 09:28 PM

Funny story. I played ANT at vestal today, and faced goblins. Game 2 they went land go. I went land duress. I took the thorn sitting their hand. I then went on to go off and kill them the next turn. Had they dropped chalice, it would have been a very different game.

GoboLord

08-22-2010, 08:20 AM

I did play Gobbos at German Nationals Sideevent, ending 46th of 208 Players. Maybe ill try to get the plays together tomorrow. Now im goin to sleep after a 22h day xD

Hey!

I've been there too, ending 31st of 208 :-D
Didn't realize you've been there.

I saw 5 Goblin-decks in total

- one that was piloted by a French guy called "Vincent"
- one guy with short hair who had every Goblin in foil
- one guy with mutavaults MD
- one with whom I talked about using Pyrokinesis or not (after playing against Vincent)
- and me

Welcher von denen warst du?

I'm planing to report, too.

SpoCk0nd0pe

08-22-2010, 10:07 AM

Boarding thorn against heavy spell based decks just seems bad. Your diluting your ringleaders to make your opponents spells cost more. Your attempting to make an aggro deck far more controllish than you should be. We run the mana denial because we have vial and ways to cheat guys into play, but when your diluting the deck to disrupt your opponent that just seems weak. Whether your oppenent's firespout costs 3vs4 really isn't that big of an issue. The fact still remains that they are going to firespout you. Also, most decks are already bringing in artifact hate for your vials, its not like they won't have a way to blow up your thorns.
Thorn actually helps a lot against burn and enchantress. It slows them down just enough to kill them.

About Chalice: It definitely is the best combo hate card available to us. It has a strong enough effect to let us race combo and can be dropped for 0. I play 4 chalice and 2 thorn in my sb vs combo.

I changed it a bit since the last time. I have taken out 1 War Marshal and 2 Chieftains and added 1 Stingscourger and 2 Warchiefs. Always play 4 warchiefs! 1-2 chieftains are fine as 4 haste lords sometimes is not enough but cost reduction is so much better for us then +1/+1. I play 4 warchiefs and 2 chieftains as well.

4 Chalice of the void - But I dont know if I will keep these in. I'm thinking maybe making these Warren Instigators to side in against combo but I don't know if thats good enough.Why not play instigator main and 4 chalice in the sb? Except against zoo maybe, he is way stronger then MWM.
I would play crypt/macabre over relic in sb for the same reason as chalice: They do not slow you down and you need a fast win.

I've seen a lot of lists playing ports. I do not really get how to use them on the draw. In my testings port just sucked on the draw, especially if not having vial in my opening hand.
Simple scenario vs zoo: He drops a land and nacatl. We drop a mountain+vial. He drops a pridemage and swings for 4. Now port him or put down a goblin? If I port him I might not even deny a 2cc drop because he might have the 3rd land. In my playtestings port was bad on the draw, I want to put down an instigator or piledriver turn 2 to get my tempo going not waste a turn to eventually deny his second 2cc drop. The same mostly applies to the turn after, I want to drop a warchief or chieftain, despite of the possibility not being able to cast him at all due to the lack of RR, I want to drop a goblin, especially warchief who provides so much tempo.
I even thought about cutting wasteland. I had not so few games where my opponent just had enough mana so waste would not hurt him but the colorless denied me of dropping as many goblins as I wanted (those vial matron -> drop 2 piledrivers with warchief for the win moves).

About pyrokinesis against zoo:
With the banning of mystical tutor good zoo lists do not play loam lion anymore. There are only 2 situations where you can trade 2vs2 (assuming he will be smart and won't drop a small goyf): Lavamancer is on the board, 2 pridemages are on the board.
Now if my opponent is on the draw (happens pretty often vs zoo): When testing pyrokinesis I had those situations where I drew 3 land, vial, 2 goblins, pyrokinesis. If you use the pyrokinesis (mostly at 2vs1) and draw another land and cannot find a ringleader you are very much dependent on lucky topdecks. If you had to mull or even draw 2 pyrokinesis, thinks look even worse to me. I ran out of threats because of pyrokinesis fairly often in my testing, especially when my opponent is on the draw. That made me loose because I could not keep up with his tempo and threats, it hurts if there are no goblins to make use of the tempo gain of pyrokinesis.

Humphrey

08-22-2010, 11:47 AM

Ok, here a shhort report how i played yesterday. Since i was very tired, cant remember the details :( We started at 4.30am to drive to the event.

Here is the list i played:

// Lands
2 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
3 [B] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
2 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [U] Lightning Bolt
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 3 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Match1 vs GW
G1: I mulligan to 6, starting with Lackey who gets Stp, he drops MoR, then 2 Kitchen Finks and a KotR. Loss
G2: I start with Lackey tho connect bringing Shapshooter than a few more Goblins. He has a Goyf I guess but gets overwhelmed
G3: I mulligan to 5, keeping a hand with 2 Land, Lackey, Vial, Piledriver. He starts with Land, Go, I play Lackey who gets the Sword. Then he plays 2 MoR, following with Goyf, KotR, Finks, plays E.Tutor for Jitte. No Chance
2-1
0-1-0

Match2 vs Ugr
I cant remember much. Both games he gets flooded with Goblins. I can waste and port him his R, so he cant get Firespout. He only has 2 Cliques to block. His deck was some hybrid of Canadian Thresh and Jacecontrol.
2-0
1-1-0

Match3 vs NO-Bant-Counterbalance
G1: This game took 30min, because he played extremely slow, but i manage to kill him in the end. So we start with only 15min left. I was thinking to stall the 2nd game into win, but in the end i decided to play fair.
G2: I start with Lackey tho gets Swords, then he plays CB. I play Piledriver, he reveals Stoneforge Mythic. In the next four turns he is able to counter all my Gobs, because he has 4 Brainstorms. Then he gets Top, a Goyf and a Jitte who can kill me in the 3rd extra turn. - I should have stalled :(
1-1
1-1-1

Match4 vs Survival
Both games end quite quick, since he cant get any real use of his Survival.
G1: i bounce a Noble, Weirding a KotR and kill him.
G2: He starts with Land, I play Vial. He gets Pridemage. Im a 2nd Vial. Then he plays a Noble, but in fear of my Vials never attacked. I just ramp the counter on my Vials, because I only have 2 Ringleader in hand. He plays a survival, I vial in Ringleader, getting me 4 cards. In my turn I vial a 2nd Ringleader, getting me 4 cards again. I vial a Chieftain and play lots of stuff - he scoops.
2-0
2-1-1

Match5 vs UWb Landstill
G1: He has Swords and Counters for my plays, but then i get some meat who beats him, since he doesnt get one of his 2 Moat, 3 Deed, 2 Wrath - probalby because he isnt playing Brainstorms. Since he was quite unexperienced he just built his own version of Landstill and couldnt figure the use of it.
G2: This was the weirdest game of the day. He starts with Factory, I play Vial. He drops a 2nd Factory attacking me with the 1st. I put a counter on my Vial. He drops a 3rd Factory attacking me for 3. I put a counter on my Vial. He attacks me for 3. I vial in Piledriver eot, in my turn vial Warchief and attack for 5. He drops an Island, attacking for 4. I play some more Goblins and kill him :D
2-0
3-1-1

Match6 vs Ugr Jacecontol
I cant remember anything, but i won 2-0. Had a Chalice1 in the 2nd Game.
4-1-1

Match7 vs Aggroloam
G1: I start with Lackey, he stars with Land Mox, Goyf then were starting to flood the table. He with Crusher, KotR, Dark Confidant. Me with Warchief, Chieftain, Piledriver, Commander. When i manage to bounce the KotR and shoot the Confidant with Commander i swing for 15, while he is on 14.
G2: Mulligan on 5 :( After he is getting a Kotr with Jitte and me getting nothing, I scoop
G3: I need a fast start or Planar Void, because the time is ticking. I mulligan to 5, holding a hand with 2 Mountain, 2 Planar Void, 1 Gob. He starts with Mox, Confidant and has everything in hand to beat me quite quick. I think he got the perfect hand to beat me anyway.
1-2
4-1-2

Match8 vs UR Siflenought
G1: 2nd turn Nought and force for my Weirdings, following with Spellsnare for my Scourger
G2: I overrun him, since I waste him Volcanic.
G3: Very complicated match, I guess I did a serveral mistakes here. I have Chalice, Wasteland, and Weirdings in hand, Lackey in play and possible somehow to manage to kill his Mishra or let him stifle to tap out, Weirdings his Trinketmage who got Nought and connect with lackey. But since I overlook the Mishra he sacrifice it and getting Nought. Somehow could have manged to get the Chalice earlier, but I was quite tired. :(
1-2
4-1-3

Match 9 vs UWr Landstill
G1: I start beating him, then he gets Humility but i have Warchief, MWM and a token to continue beating him for 3, he gets a Jace bouncing MWM, I weirding my token to attack for 3, then for 2, he gets a 2nd Jace. EoT i Vial in a gob, nabbing his last point of life.
G2: He scoops turn 3 after a wasted Volcanic and a missed Landdrop despite his Brainstorm.
2-0
5-1-3

Conclusion:
I had a nice day, facing friendly opponents. Location was good. More Legacyplayers than Standardplayers :D

-Never missed Incinerators, never used the 1-of i played.
-Chieftain is very strong, i recommend 3
-Never get use of Pyrokinesis, but boarded the Bolts agains Control
-Stingscourger is good, but I only played 2 because i expected more Emrakul

I think Ill kick the Bolts to put Jitte in the SB. A resolved Jitte against me is pain in the ass and resolved one one my side of the table is very good too.

@Gobolord. I guess im the short hair/Foilcard Player, was sitting next to your Mirrormatch I guess. Cant wait to finally get the FTV Relics Vial :D But I heared there was another Gobplayer who had Japanese Foil Matrons :o

GoboLord

08-22-2010, 12:32 PM

Ok, here a shhort report how i played yesterday. Since i was very tired, cant remember the details :( We started at 4.30am to drive to the event.

@Gobolord. I guess im the short hair/Foilcard Player, was sitting next to your Mirrormatch I guess. Cant wait to finally get the FTV Relics Vial :D But I heared there was another Gobplayer who had Japanese Foil Matrons :o

I didnt have a mirror that day. I sat next to you while I was beating Zoo in the turns (round 7).

Humphrey

08-22-2010, 12:55 PM

Hey!

I've been there too, ending 31th of 208 :-D
Didn't realize you've been there.

I saw 5 Goblin-decks in total

- one that was piloted by a French guy called "Vincent"
- one guy with short hair who had every Goblin in foil
- one guy with mutavaults MD
- one with whom I talked about using Pyrokinesis or not (after playing against Vincent)
- and me
.

?
:D

GoboLord

08-22-2010, 01:28 PM

?
:D

I talked to Vincent's opponent about Pyrokinesis, after watching their (mirror) match

ScatmanX

08-22-2010, 03:43 PM

4-1 Yeasterday, with my usual list, with -1Swamp,-1 Shooter, +1 Port (3 total) +1 Boartusk Liege, and changed Faeries for Planar Voids.

Supreme Blue: 2-1. Game 1 he kills me fast, dropping, on the play, an EE @1. Game 2 Waste and Port cut his green mana sources. G3 I manage to play around CB/Top with my 6 4cc goblins, and with a lot of tricks.

Vengevival: 2-1: G1 I have Vial, and though he leads with Hierarch, Port slows him down, so my Vial gets me there. Game 2 I go with a 1 Lander, with Vial and Void, but his Trygon rapes me. Game 3 I get 2 Wastes, Port and Perish, and go for it. By turn 4, after baiting a FoW with Vial, I Perish his board away (Hierarch, 2 Rootwallas and a Trygon). Then I win.

Burn: 0-2. He uses 4MD Searing Blaze, with Flamebreak and Fallout Side. Port does help, making sure he doesn't get to 3 mana, but thats not enough in any game, while I draw 6+lands...

Zoo: 2-0(again). G1 he goes Taiga, Nacatl, and I Waste. He drops Forest and Nacatl. I smile. I develop some board position, and when he finds a Hierarch, I find a Port, so it really doesn't matter. G2 I manage to connect 1 of my 2 Lackeys using Knesis to kill Lavamancer and a Pridemage, and that gets me a Liege, and I cast a Chieftein. 2 Turns later, Perish gets rid of 2 more guys.

Dredge: 2-1. I have a T3 kill, but delay to a T4, having to kill 2 zombie tokens, so they don't block Piledriver. G2 He just wins. G3 I go for it with a Void in hand, and find another by turn 3, witch I can cast, because it only costs B (and he had a Nature's Claim).

All in all, very happy with deck, again.
And for the naysayers, Port helped me on 4 of my 5 pairings, so he's definitely staying here.

@ Nelis: In your list, vs Dredge, I'd take out 4 Ringleaders, 2 Chiefteins, 1 SGC and a Gempalm (maybe 2, to leave something else) for the gravehate, MWM and Knesis. MWM and Sting rock here, since they die, and nail Bridge.

@SpoCk0nd0pe: in your sample scenario against Zoo, just don't use Port. It may come in handy later, when you find a Waste, and is able to shut him of one of his colors.
Also, those Knesis scenarios don't happen a lot. If they do to you, just remember that you don't necessarily have to play it right away. It is a good card for the whole game, not just the beginning.

Humphrey

08-22-2010, 06:41 PM

I agree with Port, its a very good addition to the Wastelands. But I wouldnt play 4. Often I found 3 to much too, so im on 2 and ok with that.

TossUsToLions

08-22-2010, 07:00 PM

Humphrey

08-22-2010, 07:04 PM

I think Duress is a very good addition to the Playset Chalice/Thorn of Ametyhst if ure expecting more combo than usual. But since 1 Duress does not enough and they play Brainstorms (discussed the page before ;)) you need more than than

FoulQ

08-22-2010, 09:07 PM

On the discussion of combo hate of choice, what does everyone think about Duress (or Thoughtseize) in the sideboard? It's good against Show and Tell, TES/ANT/DDFT, Belcher, possibly dredge. Also helps against Enchantress and Stax. Thoughts?

Not good enough against combo, and usually not good enough in other matchups because of the lowered goblin count (decks where duress is good against that aren't combo usually rely on ringleader as the primary win con anyway)

In fact, no combo hate is "good enough," and I think you guys are making a mistake debating something so irrelevant. If a blue deck capable of supporting FOW had 4 in the SB for combo, you really think that would help them that much? No, no it won't.

Fact is, goblin MD is the problem for combo. And that can't be fixed. We don't run MD daze, force, spell pierce. It's wasteland/port, or bust. Better hope they keep sketchy hands!

So run 6-8 pieces of hate or run 0. There is no point in wasting valuable sideboard space when you'll rarely board it in.

Or, just run REB, which is marginally good against the rare combo deck (also is quite good against SnT). Also kills JTMS, merfolk lords, and can come in against decks like dreadstill as a surprise tactic, usually very effective because most players are too stupid to see it coming.

REB is a beast in the Columbus meta.

x3 REB me please!

ScatmanX

08-22-2010, 09:25 PM

I agree with Port, its a very good addition to the Wastelands. But I wouldnt play moren than 4. Often I found 3 to much too, so im on 2 and ok with that.

Neither would I, because that would be cheating...

@Duress: I never liked discard in the SB, but if your meta is combo 2.0 (SnT, reanimator, Sneak Attack) infested, I'm beginning to think it's a good idea...

Humphrey

08-22-2010, 10:47 PM

Neither would I, because that would be cheating...

@Duress: I never liked discard in the SB, but if your meta is combo 2.0 (SnT, reanimator, Sneak Attack) infested, I'm beginning to think it's a good idea...

fixed :P

TossUsToLions

08-23-2010, 12:58 AM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-08-22&end_date=2010-08-22&event_type=SCLO&city=Denver

3 gobbo players in the top 16. This deck seems to be getting stronger by the day, no matter what colors are being splashed (mono-red, rb, and rgb were all in the T16). Let's just hope it doesnt get too big and everyone decides to splash black for 4 Engineered Plague in sideboard :smile:

ScatmanX

08-23-2010, 12:42 PM

sealab2021

08-23-2010, 04:46 PM

TossUsToLions

08-23-2010, 05:30 PM

Those lists are weird. I mean, 2 Matron? Bloodmark Mentor? Tartfire?
I guess it would be nice to see against what decks they played...

That was my initial reaction, too. 2 Matron, really? People don't understand how important this card is to this deck. I can't count how many times i had a warchief and a piledriver in play, then play matron for two, search for another piledriver, play piledriver for one, then win. All for three mana. This is just one very specific example, but Matron is just so ridiculously good.

And Bloodmark Mentor is an odd choice. I like how it is a two-drop, which i feel the decks lacks with all the three-drops, and giving piledriver first strike is unstoppable. But a 1/1 for two? I don't know, maybe i'll try it out. But it amazes me how goblins are so consistent, even though the lists can change dramatically

GoboLord

08-23-2010, 05:41 PM

That was my initial reaction, too. 2 Matron, really? People don't understand how important this card is to this deck. I can't count how many times i had a warchief and a piledriver in play, then play matron for two, search for another piledriver, play piledriver for one, then win. All for three mana. This is just one very specific example, but Matron is just so ridiculously good.

And Bloodmark Mentor is an odd choice. I like how it is a two-drop, which i feel the decks lacks with all the three-drops, and giving piledriver first strike is unstoppable. But a 1/1 for two? I don't know, maybe i'll try it out. But it amazes me how goblins are so consistent, even though the lists can change dramatically

The lists don't differ dramatically from each other. We just mention that it's the core-cards that win tournaments

22-23 Lands
Vial
Lackey
Piledriver
Warchief
Matron
Ringleader
Siege-Gang

Goblin decks differ in like 15 cards MD from one another (6-8 of which are occupied with removal).

Bloodmark Mentor is IMO not bad. It's just that the times when we needed first strike are over. He may be strong in a build with more Lords.

Humphrey

08-23-2010, 06:40 PM

Goblord, are you going to post something about your games on saturday?

jin

08-24-2010, 12:17 AM

I disagree with your reasonings. Yes, we have a great match-up against CounterTop, but CounterTop is nowhere near the ONLY deck running the cards listed and highlighted. And I wasn't listing the cards to make the case that Thorn boosts our chances against CounterTop! I was illustrating that 5 of the top 8 decks were 75%+ Non-Creature spells. Against these decks Chalice would be mostly useless (with the noted exception of Bryant Cook's ANT). HOWEVER, Thorn against these decks can slow them down considerably, and when combined with mana-denial it can take them out of the game.

I don't think Chalice is effective against combo. It cannot stop the mechanics that make combo go off. All it can stop is Petal, Chrome Mox, and LED. Those are the only 3 cards Chalice could ever come in against. That means it's only useful against a very narrow range of decks. Thorn slows the pace way, way down, which gives Goblins more time to get their Mojo going.

Psychological threat? Well... If I played a deck that tried to cast 10 spells in one turn I'd be more concered about coming up with 10 extra mana than I would be about 2 of those spells being countered...
Also, you seem to concede that Chalice is only good against Belcher and ANT, since you are advocating playing it for 0. Both those decks can easily play around Chalice without having to get rid of it. Belcher has Land Grant, Simian Spirit Guide, and Elven Spirit Guide to get the ball rolling. And ANT has Brainstorm and Ponder to sculpt a hand that can go off with Dark Ritual and the like.

Thorn isn't good against Ad Nauseum?...
You do realize that you're supposedly advocating Chalice as a stronger card choice than Thorn, right? Or did I just make the classic error of assuming that people who take the time to write would have also taken the time to think about what they're writing? The statement "Thorn against Ad Nauseum is also laughable since Ad Nauseum is an instant," makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Chalice does diddly-squat against Ad Nauseum! Thorn makes it cost 1 more! That's the whole point to running Thorn! It effects all those expensive cards that Chalice will never ever ever touch.

" Thorn just hurts the mana producers which chalice is better at doing."
NO! Thorn hurts everything NON-CREATURE in a COMBO deck. Chalice turn 0 stops only 3 cards that are ever played.

I have not been convinced that Chalice is better for anything other than countering Petal, LED, and Chrome mox. What I have been convinced of, however, is that when people see the word "Counter" in conjunction with "Spell" that they automatically assume that's the best possible outcome.

Sorry about the late reply, I was busy yesterday. I bolded some points so people can skip to what they want to read.

Yeah, Countertop isn't the only deck playing those highlighted cards but it is the strongest deck playing those highlighted cards. Anything else playing those cards we would run over easily compared to Countertop which makes Countertop the only deck worth talking about.

You say that the thorn stops 75% of the field but Chalice can hit anything casting cost of 0-2, which means way more than 75% of the field, but will we bring it in everytime it is relavent. NO! (Bryant plays TES btw)

Why do you keep saying Chalice only stops three cards? Did you forget you can pay mana for chalice after the first 2 turns? Chalice only stops 3 cards in the first 2 turns. While you are doing this, you can also cast goblins, but on turn 2, you can drop it for 2 and seal the deal.

To paraphrase myself, they are both psychological threats, thorn just isn't as fast, while with Chalice, I can smash face while being psychologically threatening.

The strategy being played by playing chalice is that you are relying on chalice tto be a psychological threat while your goblins do the real job. Thorn is also a psychological threat, but it comes down much later and you are relying more heavily on it from dying. If you are also using port/wastelands in conjunction with thorn, then you probably aern't casting very many goblins.

No, I cannot concede that Chalice is only good against Belcher/TES/ANT. Like Countertop, which is effective against the Legacy metagame as a whole due to lowered casting costs, Chalice has the same effect and can come in against a large amount of decks. Would I bring them in? Probably not. Could I? Probably. I have won games against Zoo, Dreadstill, Mighty Quinn, Rock, amoung other decks because I randomly sided in Chalice.

Like I said, Thorn isn't good against Ad Nauseum. I never said Chalice is good against Ad Nauseum. I'm merely saying your argument that Thorn is "Good" against Ad Nauseum is irrelevent.

How does Ad Nauseum being an instant make no sense? You can cast it in response to your Thorn as well as end of turn making the extra mana irrelevent. After drawing a shit load of cards, your Thorn will be easily disposed of. I'm not saying the Chalice wouldn't be as easily disposed of, but by dropping the Chalice early, I'm hoping I've done Goblins some justice and smashed his face enough so that Ad Nauseum doesn't help him much or to delay his artifact mana so that he cannot cast Ad Nauseum all together.

No Chalice does not stop the storm mechanism, and I wouldn't say Thorn stops it either. Thorn making it cost one more which slows down the combo player. So by the same reasoning, not allowing the storm player to get 3 mana from LED, 1 mana from petal and 1 mana from chrome mox is slowing it down. Chalice just slows them down with less mana required to be invested and that is a tempo gain (which is Goblin's main strategy, gaining tempo). *JUST IN CASE YOU FORGOT, Chalice can also come down on turn 2 for 1 so that Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame/Brainstorm/Ponder/Chant/Sensei's Top/etc are also nullfiied.

It just seems like you keep running your mouth and jumping to conclusions like I haven't considered your post and I'm just posting for the sake of posting. Well, no I'm posting to contribute to the Goblin community. If you would calm down and listen to some facts instead of blasting your opinion and making assumptions about my character, you'd realize that what I'm advocating isn't Chalice is good because it "counters" "spells" and "locks out." You think too narrow mindedly. Chalice is good because it does that while allowing us to drop Goblins. THAT is the important part.

To sum up, what I AM saying is that Chalice allows Goblins to do their thing while not consuming too many resources at the beginning but also allows Goblin to make it very hard for the combo player afterwards. I'm not saying Chalice is ONLY for combo, because it can be played for other decks, but I'm saying it is very good against combo since it puts pressure as early as turn 1 and continues to pressure until it is removed as well as allows Goblins to attack while doing so. In essence, Chalice works like discard putting pressure before turn 2 and like Thorn, it pretty much seals the deal after turn two.

Why do you keep saying Chalice only stops three cards?

On the discussion of combo hate of choice, what does everyone think about Duress (or Thoughtseize) in the sideboard? It's good against Show and Tell, TES/ANT/DDFT, Belcher, possibly dredge. Also helps against Enchantress and Stax. Thoughts?

Yeah it seems pretty bad with brainstorms involved. It's only really good against Belcher but Belcher might have emptied his hand by the time you can cast it. Plus you are never going to mulligan into a discard card. It just works well with Chalice/Thorn (if you so choose) but then again so does mindbreak trap. I think dealing with Enchantress/Stax, I'd much rather play with Anarchy. It's cool to blow their shit up.

GoboLord

08-24-2010, 05:17 AM

Goblord, are you going to post something about your games on saturday?

For today I'm busy with some exams (and the preparation). I will post it tommorow.

@ topic of combo hate:

I'm busy with a larger statisical MU analysis. For this reason I colleted data from personal observations and (to a much bigger part) data from 6 spreadsheets of Star City Games Open this year (reported by Jared Sylva). This is what I found out our MU against TES/ANT/DDANT. Note that those records are pre mystical tutor ban! Also I summed those 3 decks up in one category because their functions and card choices are very similar!

TES/ANT/DD (49%) - Goblins (51%)

2-0 XXXXX
2-1 XXX
1-1
1-2 XXXXX.XXXXX.
0-2 XX

This means that we win most of the games 2-1. My interpretation would be that we have resonable SB cards to effectivly hate them. Maybe it doesn't matter weather we run Thorn or Chalice or trap: on average everything turns out to be effective and none of the cards seems really bad or really good.

SpoCk0nd0pe

08-24-2010, 10:26 AM

I do think chalice and thorn hate combo almost equally well. You need to pieces to really shot down combo for more then 2 or 3 more turns anyway. The main difference is chalice can be dropped at 0, one turn earlier then thorn. That often makes the difference between win or loss, especially on the draw. That's why I play 4 chalice and 2 thorn.
Thorn on the other hand is stronger against enchantress. Trap just sucks, combo plays too many cards hating trap anyway.

About port vs mountains:
A small analysis of chances, assuming we need at least 2 mountains (I think it is reasonable for warchief, chieftain and general tempo) unsing the MWS tool.

Mana base: 18 mountains, 4 waste
Opening hand: 69%
8 cards seen: 76%
9 cards seen: 83%
10 cards seen: 87%

Maba base: 16 mountains, 4 waste, 2 ports
opening hand: 61%
8 cards seen: 69%
9 cards seen: 76%
10 cards seen: 82%

Basicly the second mountain comes one draw later, I despereately need it on turn 3 (for warchief, chieftain) if playing instigator you need it turn 2.
To have the same mana consistency you have to play one more land for every 2 ports, I'd rather play another goblin tbh. In addition, you will have a 3% higher change of having to mull because of a no mountain opening hand.

GoboLord

08-24-2010, 11:31 AM

jin

08-24-2010, 12:06 PM

For today I'm busy with some exams (and the preparation). I will post it tommorow.

@ topic of combo hate:

I'm busy with a larger statisical MU analysis. For this reason I colleted data from personal observations and (to a much bigger part) data from 6 spreadsheets of Star City Games Open this year (reported by Jared Sylva). This is what I found out our MU against TES/ANT/DDANT. Note that those records are pre mystical tutor ban! Also I summed those 3 decks up in one category because their functions and card choices are very similar!

TES/ANT/DD (49%) - Goblins (51%)

2-0 XXXXX
2-1 XXX
1-1
1-2 XXXXX.XXXXX.
0-2 XX

This means that we win most of the games 2-1. My interpretation would be that we have resonable SB cards to effectivly hate them. Maybe it doesn't matter weather we run Thorn or Chalice or trap: on average everything turns out to be effective and none of the cards seems really bad or really good.

Wow, nice. In regards to the stats themselves, they are interesting, but not all that surprising. Goblin is pretty easy to play where as -DDANT/ANT/TES - combo decks in general have a much smaller margin of error. I play both TES and Vial Goblins. I picked up Goblin's strategy in like the first 2 days of play testing. I've been playing TES for a little over a year now and I'm still confused on what outs I have in different situations. I've also touched base with DDANT which is MUCH more difficult to play.

So you see, it isn't surprising that more combo players lose to the pressure of Goblins. I'm pretty sure the stats are a lot diffent though, if it were a competent combo player versus a competent Goblin player.

Now that Mystical Tutor is banned, it should take more skill to pilloting combo which should sway the inexperienced players away from it. I can't wait to see how things turn out!

GoboLord

08-25-2010, 08:02 AM

Tournament Report: German Nationals 2010

Hey guys,

here is my tournament report that may be fun or interesting to read, (or maybe even stuff for new discussions). I learned a lot at this tourney and I want to share my experiences.

First of all: the list

//Lands [22]
4 Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Flex-Slots [12]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

//Sideboard [15]
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Perish
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Ley-Line of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

So here are my pairings:

Round 1 – Zoo-Survival Stefan
On the play he begins with Savannah, Nacatl, Go. I’m expecting Zoo, and had Mountain, Lackey, Go with no removal on hand. He drops Wasteland and Survival(!) on turn 2. He manages to get his Squee + Survival online, which enables him to drop a creature each turn. Ports and Wastelands couldn’t stop his mana-flood. 35 minutes (and tons of removal burning down Goblins and Goyfs) later he took me down with 3 huge Knight of the Reliquary.

0-1 (3 Perish)

In game 2 I keep a weak hand with Port, Vial, 2 Perish, Lackey, 2 Matron. I play Port, Vial, Go. On turn 3 Pridemage took my Vial, leaving me with only Port and a Lackey in play. I draw Scalding Tarn. No I just had to wait for one more land to play Perish. In the following turn he plays KotR, leaving me exactly 1 turn to find a 3rd land before he has Wasteland for my Port. Of course I didn’t find the land. Tarmogoyf, and Knight (feat. Wasteland) quickly ended the lousy MU.

0-2 (0-1-0)

Round 2 – Merfolk (Mono U) Felix
He goes first with Island, Go. The following 3 turns were as follows: Lackey Daze. Mogg War Marshal  Daze. Piledriver  Daze. Luckily I saw 3 different with Daze, telling me that 3/7 cards on his hands were lands, and none was a 1-drop. For the rest of the game, Matron into Ringleader into many more Goblins convinced my opponent to scoop.

1-0 (2 Pyrokinesis)

I don’t have much memory left from this match. He never was much of a threat in that game, cause didn’t have creatures. 2 Spell Snare hit 2 Piledriver. He had Jitte since turn 2. Rejeerey came via Vial and attacked with Jitte next turn. I chumpblocked with Mogg War Marshall. With 2 tokens and 1 Warchief in play and nothing but Bloodstained Mire on hand. I desperately needed to topdeck my 1-off TSH. Before he had a chance draw FoW/Blue elemental Blast. Luckily I did. I sent my Warchief for an attack, which he destroyed with his Jitte-counters. In postcombat mainphase I fetched for Taiga, played TSH.

2-0 (1-1-0)

Round 3-Merfolk (Mono U) Holger
The first 4 rounds were as follows: Lackey –> Daze, Piledriver  Daze, Piledriver  FoW Standstill, Matron  FoW (Standstill). In turn 4 I played Matron, which he forced. While thinking about what to pitch I said: “C’mon. Take Lord of Atlantis, it’s useless against Goblins”. He reacted like “How did you know what I’m playing?”...Well, thanks, I didn’t. Ringleader finished him off. I really like running into tons of Daze when they don’t have 1st turn Vial.

1-0 (2 Pyrokinesis)

He plays Island, Go. I Play Mountain, Lackey, Go (with 2 SGC, Matron, Gempalm and Lightning Bolt on hand). He plays Cursecatcher. I play Bolt for catcher, Lackey brings in SGC. He drops Lord of Atlantis. I sac a token for Lord- Lackey brings in my second SGC. In his turn he was thinking for a long time. Suddenly Gempalm Incinerator “slipped” through my fingers and landed on the table face-up – that seemed to quicken his decision.

2-0 (2-1-0)

Round 4 – 4c Landstill feat. Pernicious Deed and Life from the Loam Jasper
In game 1 mull down to 4 cursing my “brainless” decision to run Ports. I only had Vial and 3 Lands. He finished me off quickly with Pernicious Deed and double Factory.

0-1 (3 Nature’s Claim)

I start with Mountain, Lackey, Go, which he “sworded”. In turn 2 I dropped another Lackey and Vial. I missed a landdrop on turn 3 and had to pass with SGC and Nature’s Claim in hand. He played Pernicious Deed which was destroyed by my Nature’s Claim in EOT. Next turn Lackey brings in SGC. He draws, and scoops, showing me 6 Lands on his hand (none of which was a Factory).

1-1 (nothing)

In game 3 I keep a risky hand with Vial, Scalding Tarn, 2 Matron, Gempalm, Ringleader. So far I didnt see any Forces or Counterspells. So I decided for myself that he wouldn’t “force” my 1st-turn Vial. He didn’t. Now it was his turn to mull down to 4. My Vial survived long enough and Ports and Wasteland did their job to shut him off his 3rd mana.

2-1 (3-1-0)

Round 5 – Dreadstill (Ur) Simon
In game 1 both of us did pretty much of nothing. In early turns I played Matron  Stingscourger. I guessed that he was playing Dreadnought, but wasn’t sure so I didn’t search TSH. A Firespout in midgame stopped me. Several turns later he finally showed me that I was right: Trinket Mage  Dreadnought. I really hoped that he forgot my Stingscourger in hand. One turn later he played Dreadnought + Stifle, and got all-in with CB + Top. Now he had no cards in hand and no untapped lands to use Top. On my turn I played Stingscourger and a blind(!) CB revealed Daze, well...

0-1 (4 Chalice, 3 Nature’s Claim)

I went first with Mountain, Vial (wich got forced), Go (having 2 Taiga, 2 Lackey and Chalice in hand). On turn 2 I played Chalice of the Void @ 1. I was afraid of an early Nought and I thought Lackey would run into Factory eitherway. Well afterall I must admit this was a bad mistake. 2 turns later he played Standstill, which I broke by playing Goblin Lackey (!!). He drew 3 cards when I realized my ugly misplay. Still I asked him if Laykey resolves (maybe he didn’t notice my mistake). “Of course not!” he said, pointing to my Chalice. He had Curcible to waste me out of the game. I had another Chalice @ 0 to stop EE. One turn later he dropped a second Wasteland and played EE for 2 colorless.

0-2 (3-2-0)

Round 6 – Bant Survival feat. Jace 2.0 Christian
Well we talked about each other’s lists on the way to the tournament. He was the one to borrow me a Playset of Rishadan Ports.

In game 1 I went first with (guess what?) Mountain, Lackey, Go. The match quickly ended after I had SGC and Piledriver enter the battlefield on turn 2.

1-0 (3 Nature’s Claim)

In game 2 he had too many Goyfs and War Monks to stall me, while Jace finished me off.

1-1 (nothing)
In game 3 I had to take down Iona and Jace and Survival before I could stop his card advantage. It took several turns where Tarmogoyfs fell prey to Piledrivers and Lackeys to War Monks. After counting his leftover creatures in deck he scooped.

Round 7 – Zoo (Sligh feat. Goblin Guide) Alex
In game 1 I had hard times because of his Goblin Guide. The match was decided when I counted wrong and went all-in to kill him, ignoring that his 9/9 KotR was able to block. One turn after he hit me with his Knight and and had double Chainlightning + Fireblast.

0-1 (3 Perish, 2 Pyrokinesis)

In game 2 I had tons of removal + Lackey. On his turn he asked me if he should play Goblin Guide or a removal for Lackey. I didn’t answer that question. Next he asked if Zoo is a good MU for Goblins. That was when I realized that he really had no idea. He told me that he borrowed this deck and that he is actually a T2 player. Well... I won that game easily because he decided to attack with Goblin Guide.

1-1 (nothing)

Game 3 was the most exciting match I had that day. He started spamming creature. My Perish was useless against triple Goblin Guide and Grim Lavamancer. With only 8 lifes left I was able to play Pyrokinesis and trade Goblin tokens for Guides. After that I had Lightning Bolt, Gempalm and finnaly my Perish was usefull when destroying Pridemage and Nacatl. Now it was my turn to do some damage. Regular time was over, we had 5 extra turns. In my last extra turn he had 5 life, I had SGC on hand and 5 lands in play. In my upkeep he wanted to shake hands and draw (cause I wasn’t able to kill him from his point of view). I showed him my SGC. “Well,” someone watching the match said “you got to topdeck a land and it better be a red one”. I just flipped the top card over...Mountain! Loud laughter broke out.

2-1 (5-2-0)

Round 8 – Zoo, Pro Naya feat. NO Progenitus Denis
In game 1 he had turn 3 Thoctar which attacked in tunr 4 and was replaced by Progenitus in 2nd mainphase.

0-1 (Perish)

In game 2 I was flooded, but nevertheless had 2 Perish. Still, Jitte ended the game (cause TSH was waiting in my sideboard). Just what I deserved...

0-2 (5-3-0)

Round 9 – MUC feat. Firespout Christof
In game 1 I was on the play. After mulligan on 4 (!) I started with (guess what?)...Taiga, Lackey, Go (Badlands and Vial in hand). I topdecked Matron, which came via Lackey. Matron  Ringleader  fun. I took him down with those guys and only saw 3 Relic of Progenitus and Jace 2.0.

1-0 (3 Nature’s Claim)

In game 2 had had what I boarded Nature’s Claim for: Vedalken Shakles. 3 of them were too much. I scooped to possibly rush him in game 3.

1-1 (nothing)

Game 3 took very long. Here is a short cut. He took a lot of damage. Ports shut him of his only red source to avoid Firespout. Then extra turns were announced. Vial @ 5, Opp’s life @ 9. SGC in hand. Several Goblins on my side of the battlefield. He controlled an untapped Shakles and 4 Lands. My plan was clear: Tap his Mountain in upkeep, bring in SGC in EOT, copy it with Kiki-Jiki, launch for a deadly attack in my last extra turn. Well... I forgot to tap his Mountain. So he played Firespout. I was thinking for a long time and then I decided to do my 2nd ugly misplay this day: I pitched SGC in response (!) on Firespout, tapped 6 mana and did 6 damage to his lifes. Then my board was cleared, so was his hand. Well... it was my last extra turn and the game took both of my SGCs. I decided to draw Lightning Bolt from top. And that’s what I did. Again the audience just laughed.

2-1 (6-3-0)

Conclusion (+ and -)

+ I’m in love with MD TSH (thank you Foul Q, replaced Goblin Tunnler last minute)
+ had some very funny matches
+ my ability to topdeck what I need saved my ass 3 times
+ was able to play Ports and I liked it (although my ist is 3c)
+ didn’t face combo
+ was the most successful Goblin player that day (afaik)
- Kiki-Jiki suckes, is going to be replaced my another MWM
- didn’t need Leylines
- 2 ugly misplays

sealab2021

08-25-2010, 11:56 AM

Tournament Report: German Nationals 2010

Conclusion (+ and -)

+ I’m in love with MD TSH (thank you Foul Q, replaced Goblin Tunnler last minute)
+ had some very funny matches
+ my ability to topdeck what I need saved my ass 3 times
+ was able to play Ports and I liked it (although my ist is 3c)
+ didn’t face combo
+ was the most successful Goblin player that day (afaik)
- Kiki-Jiki suckes, is going to be replaced my another MWM
- didn’t need Leylines
- 2 ugly misplays

Nice report Gobo, enjoyed reading it. Few questions for ya though:

You never ran into issues with your manabase running three colors + 4 ports & 4 wastes?

You would replace Leylines with planar void or relic if you could?

Also sweet that goblins is back in decks to beat :cool:

ScatmanX

08-25-2010, 04:03 PM

Yeaah! DTB!
(reading Report)

Edit:
Nice Report! Congrats there.
I would never play with that manabase, but it seems to have worked out for you.
Have a couple of questions:

- Why didn't you board in Perish against Bant Survival?
- Why no Knesis against NO-Zoo?
- Do you think 1 Weirding MD would have helped you somewhere?
- Did your Ringleaders ever disappointed you, specially post-SB?

GoboLord

08-25-2010, 04:33 PM

You never ran into issues with your manabase running three colors + 4 ports & 4 wastes?

You would replace Leylines with planar void or relic if you could?

Well, I have to answer that questions from different perspectives, cause there probably is no simple answer to it.

First of all: I never tested Ports before on a tournament, so it will take some more testing to come to a conclusion. My first impression was that 4 Ports + 4 Wastelands are alright.
But one has to consider that my list is Mono R MD and that I just added G and B for 3 SB slots each. Therefore I can actually avoid to be screwed on R preboard.
Looking at the tournament:
Only 3 out of 9 decks I met had manadenial (Survival-Zoo, 2nd Merfolk and Dreadstill). This was actually a bit lucky because I feel that about half of the decks I meet run manadenial.
Ports were problematic only twice:
First: the Survival Zoo deck avoided Perish in G3 by wasting my Port. With a Mountain instead, I would have probably won.
Second: Against Landstill I had to mull down to 4 because I had no Mountain on my 1st and 3rd hand (but had Ports).

Looking at those scenarios I'd say that this could have happened to a Mono colored list too. I didn't have any problems because I was 3-colored + 4 Ports.

On the other hand one reason to cut Kiki-Jiki (for MWM) was that I found his mana cost disturbing in combination with Ports. RRR is the maxium I got to produce that day.

Still I cant say that 4 is the optimal number. Maybe 3 or even 2 are enough. I didn't finds Ports imortant in the most games. Well against 2 Merfolk decks, Landstill and MUC it was useful to block either Mutavaults or shut them off their important mana. Against 2 Survival and 2 Zoos it was pretty useless, cause they could successfully use that mana in response.

To cut a long story short:
- they didnt disturb me heavily
- they didnt saved my ass twice
- I was a bit lucky with my MUs
- maybe it needs some more testing to find out the right number
- maybe I must learn to use them better. I can imagine that I overused them.

Leylines vs. Relic/Planar Void: Well I didnt get to use Leylines in this tourney, but I wont replace them. I use Leyline in very few MUs: Lands, Random XYZ- Loam, Dredge, Reanimator. I those MUs I either have to take mulligan on Leyline or a killer hand without Leyline. Leyline just increases the possibility of strong hands (even when I dont have it on my opening hand. The main reason for Leyline is, that those decks cant do anything with their grave before it comes into play. I know the risks I take with it, but I would never run GY hate that clashes with Lackey/Vial in Turn 1. I'd rather run Crypts than Planar Void and Relics.

//EDIT: @ ScathmanX

- Why didn't you board in Perish against Bant Survival?
I knew he would expect them (because he knew my deck as a whole, as I said)
I think this deck heaviliy relies on Survival's card advantage. Shutting him off this advantage is a road to victory I guess.
Perish doesnt stop Iona.
After all it worked out. I asked him after the game what he would have done. He agreed with me. I rely on his oppion much, because he is (as I said) a really skillfull player.

- Why no Knesis against NO-Zoo?
I didnt know the deck. I only got to see Thoctar, NO and Progenitus.
I felt 11 removal postboard would be enough.
Now that I learned what the deck does, I'd board Kinesis too.

- Do you think 1 Weirding MD would have helped you somewhere?
Yes, against NO-Zoo as a solution for Progenitus. I played Matron to go for another Piledriver to race him.
Still I wouldnt add it, because I want to hide my "3-colorness" in game 1 and I think the other removals are better.
Plus I hate making Goyf big(ger) by adding Sorcery and Tribal to his collection.

- Did your Ringleaders ever disappointed you, specially post-SB?
On this tournament they didn't.
Well, I have a rather strange view when it comes to my favorite Ringleaders: IMO they cant dissapoint me because what they reveal is never bad. It's just a question of timing to make them good. No offense intended, but if you want to shatter my worldview please let me know if you disaggree. I Just want to find out if my view on Ringleader is bullet-proof.

//2nd Edit:
Thank you for your mindful comments! I really love to discuss questions that go deeper than the obvious surface. Thanks for that!

FoulQ

08-25-2010, 06:25 PM

Glad to see you picked up the TSH tech and are dropping Kiki-Jiki. I've been advocating both of those things for what feels like years now.

If you are playing 3c I would definitely want warren weirding in my 75. Probably x1 in the MD as it is tutorable solid removal. Possibly more in the sideboard for the decks that rely on 1-2 excellent creatures (countertop, new horizons, stompy decks, etc).

I see you only boarded in your chalices once and they didn't pan out. I think it is a bad card in goblin sideboards. For one, we can't abuse chalice as much as other decks, and chalice IS a design constraint just like countertop, albeit smaller. Most decks pack an answer to chalice decks, and we are just a deck awkwardly using chalice. It has a cool surprise factor but so do a lot of goblin cards. However, this is all unrelated to the combo matchup and I know people have personal preferences for combo hate in goblins.

I haven't tested your configuration at all so I can't really comment on the manabase, it looks possible though since the splashes are very light. 8 removal is quite a bit already so if you ever added x1 weirding to the MD you'd want to take out one of them.

GoboLord

08-25-2010, 06:36 PM

bakofried

08-25-2010, 07:07 PM

So what's the strongest splash color now, if at all? Is it still black, or is Weirding ineffective now?

FoulQ

08-25-2010, 07:57 PM

Well the obvious pick I think is -1 gempalm. I'm not really a fan of lightning bolt, but if one does play it, it should be x3 or x4 in my opinion so you get the reach benefit and so you get it early enough. So I wouldn't cut bolt for the weirding. I have a pretty massive hardon for stingscourger most of the time, so I wouldn't cut him, I would go with gempalm.

I also agree +1 MWM is the best move for the Kiki Jiki, of all the options. Possibly a singleton chieftain but it depends. He can be a nice tutor target sometimes in aggro races when piledriver will just get chumped. He also wins the mirror singlehandedly (barring removal obviously). And he's a killer late game draw.

I would base my SB off the Columbus meta, but I don't really know what it's like in Germany. I'm an AMERICAN (proud to be).

3 Krosan Grip
4 Perish
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Warren Weirding
4 GY Hate of your choice

Nature's Claim might be good, but I stick to the reliable tested card for now. I don't know how good weirding would really be for you, considering you only have 1 deck that I would really want to board it in for (dreadstill) in your nine rounds. It can randomly come in as extra removal against other decks but that is more of an impromptu decision based on playstyle and your opponent's specific 75.

Why no pyrokinesis? Perish + Pyrokinesis is a little bit overkill in the zoo matchup I think. My strategy is still overextend goblin swarm ringleader CA (nobody runs pyroclasm thankfully) into a SGC horde or a double piledriver kill before they have a chance to restabilize with KotRs and jittes. You really only need 1-2 sweepers, drawing a bunch of perishes and pyrokinesis early when you need to get the CA engine running really sucks.

I still think perish + pyrokinesis is doable (especially in your configuration, only 5 total) but, REB is really hot right now, and warren weirding covers some matchups that we otherwise would have nothing for. So not enough space for everything in my SB. Pyrokinesis is good and it's one of my favorite SB cards for the deck, but if you are black splashing it seems pretty pointless just for weirding.

About REB...Ichorid, Storm, Jace, Standstill decks (including landstill, dreadstill, merfolk), generic blue control decks (usually with Jace so that helps), and depending on factors decks like countertop or new horizons based on what I'm expecting.

I also believe enchantment/artifact removal is worth splashing green for in the Columbus meta. Black has its advantages and disadvantages, right now I'm not playing it, but I could see myself going 3c.

The only thing that slightly concerns me with this SB configuration is only x4 cards for the zoo matchup. But I don't know if I really want more because of ringleader dilution. Hard to say.

And I never leave home without x4 graveyard hate in my sideboard, always.

Amon Amarth

08-25-2010, 08:59 PM

In an unknown meta I'd go with mono Red while I'd probably splash Black if there is lot of aggro and aggro control. Most of these decks tend to fold to Perish and lack any way to recover before you smash them. Green is mostly just for Krosan Grip and Tin-Street Hooligan, so if you have lots of weird fringe decks like Aluren, Enchantress or Stax that might be something to consider as well.

I also enjoy the miser Chieftain too, especially if you are running Mogg War-Marshall. I always try and find a way to fit one in somewhere.

TheSleeper

08-25-2010, 09:12 PM

Gobolord: How did you find Nature's Claim? I haven't seen much discussion on this over Krosan Grip (sorry if I missed it).

Jay_Gatz

08-26-2010, 01:56 AM

With the rise in decks running plagues in the board in my meta I'm trying out Boggart Shenanigans. Has anyone had experience with this?

bakofried

08-26-2010, 02:12 AM

I would suggest splashing green for Grips if there are a lot of E. Plagues in your meta. Though running a single copy of Boartusk Liege in the board, coupled with a chieftain or two main should deal with it. (this is untested advice, however: be warned)

On another note, what splash, if any would deal with blue based board control (i.e. landstill and the like) the best? My thoughts would be Mono-R, just because Port+Waste can make things awkward for them, however, sometimes you need to blow some shit up, which green is far better at than red. So, thoughts?

Amon Amarth

08-26-2010, 02:57 AM

Mono Red is probably better against Landstill-esque decks because they aren't vulnerable to there wastelands and they are weak vs yours. And if you think it warrants it you can always play Blood Moon or Price of Progress in the SB.

GoboLord

08-26-2010, 04:53 AM

@ FoulQ
What you said makes sense (only that I'll stick 3 GY hate slots), I will test this configuration. Thanks for that.

Gobolord: How did you find Nature's Claim? I haven't seen much discussion on this over Krosan Grip (sorry if I missed it).

Afaik there hasn't been much discussion in this thread.
I boarded Nature's Claim in against 4 decks: Landstill, Dreadstill, Bant Survival and MUC. All of those deck run counters. Therefore Krosan Grip would have been saver. After all I came to use it against Landstill and Bant Survival, both times it wasn't countered. There are two possibilities:

1. They didnt have counters on hand
2. They didnt expect their Enchantments to be destroyed with only 1 mana, so they didnt play it with counter back-up.

I think I was lucky that day, because it wasn't countered, but on the other hand, many decks against whoich I would use it (Mono Black, Staxx) can't counter it. So Claim is better in those MUs because it doesnt slow you down. Second you dont run into situation where you have the card on hand, one taiga in play and you taiga is being destroyed before you draw your 3rd land. It's easier to keep you away from the 3rd mana than form one.

I cant say which one is better, it depends on the meta. Looking at the decks I faced Grip would have been saver, but I think it was the surprise factor that got them here.

Muradin

08-26-2010, 07:06 AM

GoboLord

08-26-2010, 03:47 PM

@Gobolord: Ah nice, I saw you playing against Simon Ritzka and didn't know it was you.(I also played you on MWS once so far)
Reading your report was a pleasure and props on having the best finish out of the goblins pilots. I also think that TSH maindeck is probably the way to go, but why did you run Lightning Bolts maindeck in a Rbg list instead of Warren Weirdings?

Thank you! Did you run Goblins that day? Did we talk about something? I want to recognize you too :-D

@ the topic of Lightning Bolt:

I am running a tight mana base: my deck is 3-colored and nevertheless has 4 Port + 4 Wastelands. I thought that this might be possible if I stay mono R preboard. If I'd run Warren Weiridng I'd need more badlands and probably more fetchlands. I'd have to cut Mountains for that. That would have been a bad choice I guess. Therefore I needed 8 removal slots that can be played with only red mana (so that I can reliably cast them). Well, that's why I ended up with 3 Gempalm, 2 Scourger, 3 Bolts. I neither want to have more Gempalm nor more Scourger and Lightning Bolt is the best leftover red removal I guess. I could have played Pyrokinesis instead but my skills in using that card are very limited (that's why I only run 2 in SB).

FoulQ

08-26-2010, 05:39 PM

@ the topic of Lightning Bolt:

I am running a tight mana base: my deck is 3-colored and nevertheless has 4 Port + 4 Wastelands. I thought that this might be possible if I stay mono R preboard. If I'd run Warren Weiridng I'd need more badlands and probably more fetchlands. I'd have to cut Mountains for that. That would have been a bad choice I guess. Therefore I needed 8 removal slots that can be played with only red mana (so that I can reliably cast them). Well, that's why I ended up with 3 Gempalm, 2 Scourger, 3 Bolts. I neither want to have more Gempalm nor more Scourger and Lightning Bolt is the best leftover red removal I guess. I could have played Pyrokinesis instead but my skills in using that card are very limited (that's why I only run 2 in SB).

Ah, that clarifies things quite a bit actually. So it comes down to, rather have port/bolt or manalands/weirding, but this implies that the SB green cards are worth it (since you could run RB and still run 4waste+4port imo). Are they? That's up to individual judgment and metas I suppose.

GoboLord

08-27-2010, 03:41 AM

Ah, that clarifies things quite a bit actually. So it comes down to, rather have port/bolt or manalands/weirding, but this implies that the SB green cards are worth it (since you could run RB and still run 4waste+4port imo). Are they? That's up to individual judgment and metas I suppose.

Exactly.
Not only are the SB green cards (Nature's Claim) worth it but so is Tin-Street Hooligan (which I don't want to cut anymore).

Lejay

08-27-2010, 10:28 AM

How is nature's claim good ? It doesn't fit any of your game plans except maybe against affinity. In your report it has been good for full taped pernicious deed (needle is obviously better for any deed), and dreadnought which you have warrens/stingsourgers for.

Humphrey

08-27-2010, 05:44 PM

Ive tested TNH in the beginning, when I was running green and i never found him that useful. If you have Warchief you cant use the alternative cost and you cant vial him in.
Since I dont see the necessity for a green splash atm, although it might become again if people run more Plagues, id use Tuktuk Scrapper instead.

FoulQ

08-27-2010, 05:55 PM

Splashing in goblins is meta dependent everyone, I figure anybody who has been playing this deck for about 2 days will figure that out. To splash or not to splash and what to splash is sort of a big question with limitless answers, it is perhaps the leading question of legacy.

How is nature's claim good ? It doesn't fit any of your game plans except maybe against affinity. In your report it has been good for full taped pernicious deed (needle is obviously better for any deed), and dreadnought which you have warrens/stingsourgers for.

Is it good or bad? Hard to say. But it can't be definitively one or the other. It has a certain surprise factor that krosan grip can never have, and that is often very useful and gamechanging. 1cc vs 3cc is a huge difference in legacy. The lifegain can be uneventful sometimes and the split second can also be pretty mundane quite often. Is it better than krosan grip? Definitely not, but is it a reasonable alternative to krosan grip, potentially? I think so. I'm sticking to grip for now but we should always stay open-minded.

You also missed all the points GoboLord made on it only three posts up from yours.

@ Humphrey: Really? I guess that's a good point, you can't use the alternative cost on TSH if you have warchief in play! Never thought of that before. OH wait, I have, and I mention almost on every page in this thread now why that doesn't matter so I'm not going to do it for the hundredth time. The vial thing is also irrelevant and I'm not going to get into it.

Lejay

08-27-2010, 07:30 PM

My point wasn't on comparing nature's claim's and krosan grip's values. I don't like both. In almost every match-ups where you are the beatdown you don't want to give 4 life to the opponent nor loose your tempo by keeping 3 mana open. In match-ups where you are the control deck you have almost nothing to handle except jitte and sometimes vial but if you stick with the game plan of dealing with creatures it should be alright.

There are always exceptions, but they are all answered just better by pithing needle and mana denial (with eventually discard to complement).

I was running green also not that long ago. I first used tin-street hooligan main deck. But even if my experience may fall in the metagame considerations category, I moved it to the sideboard. Don't consider it an argument if you want.

The only main deck card I found justifying a green splash is sylvan library. It completes goblins curve in the 2cc range, helps you hitting your land drops, is synergistic with fetches and matron, helps you find your sb cards, and ringleader... does it make your ringleaders worse ? Of course not, they make them better since you can just pick lands to always have your turn 4 ringleader and have 2 goblins guaranteed on top of the deck.
Outside of sylvan you only have some valuable sb options with choke, carpet of flowers and TSH.

Unfortunately bolt is also very powerful in the current metagame and you can't play Vial+bolt+ sylvan.

Humphrey

08-27-2010, 08:29 PM

I know you swaer on TSH FoulQ, but even in Gobolords report he was lucky that the opp blocked his Warchief, otherwise he would be unable to cast it.

FoulQ

08-27-2010, 08:38 PM

Grip is a rock solid reliable card. It's not perfect in goblins especially but it does what I want it to.

I agree that TSH maindeck is meh sometimes, but I notice many opponents like the jitte route to victory against us, especially lately. I prefer him as a 1-of g1 safety valve (and possibly major tempo booster) over the alternatives: removal #8, SGC #3, MWM #4, or Chieftain #2, or another toolbox target (skirk prospector, lightning crafter, etc.). And g2/3 he is often excellent.

Sylvan library sounds very interesting. Let me know if you test it someday how it goes. However when I played choke it wasn't usually worth it, I mean, of course it has surprise value and will win a few games, but I prefer the more well-rounded REB for my sideboard, choke is just too clunky in any deck for me. Never played carpet of flowers though it sounds interesting. However the U part of U decks are not usually my main concern, its the STP and the creatures.

You could probably get away with 22/23 land, 4 vial + 2 bolt + 2 sylvan (and 1 in the sideboard of each perhaps?), and 29/30 goblins. Though g2/3 might get tricky on the goblin count. Not sure how just 2 bolt would work out though MD.

Yes there really isn't MD cards so much for Rg. But the green splash in goblins is usually pretty light and for the most part it plays like monored. 2 Taigas 8 fetches and then 3 grips and 2 TSH in the 75 is the kind of splash I do when playing Rg.

Humphrey

08-27-2010, 09:08 PM

So why not run Tuktukscrapper? I definately will run him as 1-of as soon i can get a cheap foil one xD
Ok, it cost 4, but that shouldnt matter in the midgame when Jitte goes wild. Also i just added Jittes to my sb to kill opposing ones and maybe can get use of them for myself.

TossUsToLions

08-27-2010, 10:50 PM

The only main deck card I found justifying a green splash is sylvan library. It completes goblins curve in the 2cc range, helps you hitting your land drops, is synergistic with fetches and matron, helps you find your sb cards, and ringleader... does it make your ringleaders worse ? Of course not, they make them better since you can just pick lands to always have your turn 4 ringleader and have 2 goblins guaranteed on top of the deck.

Did you test sylvan library a lot? Has anyone else? I have never thought of using this card in goblins but i think i may try it. It seems like a very interesting card for the deck, especially at that 2-drop spot.

Lejay

08-28-2010, 01:02 AM

As I said I stopped running green. But I did test the sylvan library build extensively and I can say the card is excellent in goblins. Again it's the only one I found justifying a green splash. To answer TossUsToLions I'm probably the only one to have tested it. I'm that kind of guy who think about cards out of nowehere. Like running daze in DDFT this month (now everyone is playing it lol). There is one downside though. It is fundamentally made for goblins builds that are more on the control side imo. I've been playing very controllish goblins build for a long time (which means for example running only 1 piledriver) because I considered goblins like a control deck with lots of CA and mana denial.
The reason for this is that even though the card perfectly fits for a lot of reasons, like Zac Hill would say it doesn't have haste (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/16933_Chatter_of_the_Squirrel_Rethinking_Investment_Theory_Everything_Has_Haste.html]http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/16..._Has_Haste.html) except when it is countered. It's an investment for the whole game to play it on turn 2.
I recently completely changed my philosophy on the deck getting back to a philosophy of fire, that's why I moved back to Rb. Won't spend time explaining why, I probably could write an entire article on this.
That's an opinion though, and I didn't test it in a build with 4 piledrivers. It might be as good or even better. You sometimes have suprises in testing.

On a side note with sylvan library I chose to run a sideboard full of one-ofs. Library's manipulation every turn improves a lot the value of one-ofs so you can play a bunch of silver bullets in your board to optimize it.
The concept of library's manipulation was the basic idea that lent me to testing it in the first place. A lot of the successful decks in legacy have a lot of library manipulation. I figured out if goblins wanted to be top tiers again it should have to adapt the same way.

@Humphrey : do never ever play jitte in goblins sb, this is too much of a tempo loss. Destroying jittes for 2 mana isn't enough to warrant its inclusion at all.

Mantis

08-28-2010, 07:47 PM

Amon Amarth

08-28-2010, 09:42 PM

In the wake of Jace 2.0 and the shift from a tempo oriented meta to a having a lot more control decks in the format, would Choke be a decent card for our sideboard? Has anyone tested Choke? I'm not sure if I can find room, but it sure seems good against a lot of the slow blue decks that enjoy so much succes lately.

Blood Moon is pretty much always better than Choke and has more applications against decks like Lands. REB is a better SB card against blue decks in general too.

ScatmanX

08-29-2010, 09:50 PM

In the wake of Jace 2.0 and the shift from a tempo oriented meta to a having a lot more control decks in the format, would Choke be a decent card for our sideboard?

No. Just use Pithing Needles.
Seriously.
It stop half the problematic cards that are discussed over and over and over around here...

Humphrey

08-30-2010, 01:29 AM

Well if the controlplayer is able to play Jace and protect him, its too late anyways.
And he wont bounce most of yourr stuff (Piledriver, Matron, Ringleader, MWM) or its quite useless (Warchief, Chieftain), so basically its a Brainstorm for 4 ;)

Mantis

08-30-2010, 07:08 AM

Jace 2.0 is by no means a problem card, sorry if my post made it come across that way. The Jace control decks are resilient and very consistent, so we need a plan to beat them. That plan could involve just playing our standard game, but I figured having a way to steal some free wins would be nice if the deck starts to show up in big number. That said, with the recent SCG Open results in mind, I think I have overestimated what Jace would do to the metagame, thus Choke might be too narrow.

Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon are cards definately worthy of consideration right now. I'm not sure how they compare against Choke though, have to test that some day, some time.

No. Just use Pithing Needles.
Seriously.
It stop half the problematic cards that are discussed over and over and over around here...
Which problematic cards does it stop exactly? And against which decks would you side them in?
The cards Goblins has trouble dealing with are Hymn to Tourach, Empty the Warrens/Tendrills, Engineered Plague, Tarmogoyf, Firespout, Moat and Phyrexian Dreadnaught; Needle doesn't stop any of them and doesn't stop their setup either.

The insane showing of UG Madness Survival at SCG Minneapolis could indicate that Needle is correct regardless, but I do not agree with your statement that Needle stops anywhere near half of the cards we have problems against. I guess it's acceptable to board in against Counter/Top decks, but it's presence is noparticulary needed nor busted there.

In other news;
One thing I noticed is that Goblin Sharpshooter might be worthy of a spot in the maindeck again. Between the uprise of TES, the new kid in town UG Madness and the good performances of Goblins there are quite a few decent targets.

GoboLord

08-30-2010, 08:09 AM

In other news;
One thing I noticed is that Goblin Sharpshooter might be worthy of a spot in the maindeck again. Between the uprise of TES, the new kid in town UG Madness and the good performances of Goblins there are quite a few decent targets.

...not to mention: Bitterblossom's Token, Belcher's Goblin-Token, Thopter-Foundry's-Token....

ScatmanX

08-30-2010, 11:33 AM

Which problematic cards does it stop exactly? And against which decks would you side them in?
The cards Goblins has trouble dealing with are Hymn to Tourach, Empty the Warrens/Tendrills, Engineered Plague, Tarmogoyf, Firespout, Moat and Phyrexian Dreadnaught; Needle doesn't stop any of them and doesn't stop their setup either.

I didnt mean it resolves ALL our problems. Also, is there a card that answers all those problems? If there is, please, let me know...
Anyway...
Do you really have problems with Tarmogoyf? Warren Weirdings and Perish are friends.
E Plague? Chieftain/Liege/Grip help here. Also, Explorer.
Firespout? Liege/TukTuk Explorer.
Moat? SGC/Lightning Crafter/Crafter. Also, kill them before turn4...
Dreadnought? Weirdings/Stingscourer/TSH/Grip...
Hymn? Card Advantage.
Tendrils? Well, there really isnt a card to deal with it right now...

Really. If we ever have a 1cc colorless card that answerer all those problems...

What Needle DOES answer: (Bolded are the ones I think are the really problematic ones)
Sensei's Divining Top (therefore CB/Top lock)
Umezawa's Jitte (and ALL other equipaments)
Qasali Pridemage (After naming Jitte)
Survival of the Fittest
Grim Lavamancer
Veldaken Shackles
Sterling Grove
Thopter Foundry
Wasteland
Putrid Imp (yes)
Goblin Charbelcher
Mosswort Bridge
Shelldock Isle
Knight of the Relicary
ALL Planeswalkers
Grindstone
Mother of Runes
Vampire Hexmage (and the combo)
Engineered Explosives
Sneak Attack
Pernicious Act

2nd part of the question:
I side it in against:
Merfolk: Mutavault/Waste/Corahelm Commander/Vial (if we dont have on opening).
Bant: Top (if he is a good player) and Qasali.
CounterTop: Top
Landstill: Deed, EE, Factory.
(4 of 7 off the DtB)
Others:
Survival
Painter
Lands
Loam
The Rock (maybe)
Belcher
SnT
Thopter
Death and Taxes
Cephalid Breakfast
Aluren
...

Well, to sum up, I don't think there is a card as versatile as Needle.
I'm not saying it is the best card for all those situations, but is a damn fine one.

Ps: just to add: I even got the chance to name Saproling Cluster once, so thats fun =]

GoboLord

08-30-2010, 01:06 PM

Sensei's Divining Top (therefore CB/Top lock) ____ no SB card at all: every Goblin would be better than Needle here
Umezawa's Jitte (and ALL other equipaments) ____ with G splash it's obv. Grip/Nature's Claim. In Rb it's possible to keep creatures away from jitte
Qasali Pridemage (After naming Jitte) ____ I'd let Pridemage eat Jitte (if I was to play Jitte
Survival of the Fittest ____ G splash again...or graveyard hate!
Grim Lavamancer ____ no SB card at all:any removal (never found him problematic though)
Veldaken Shackles ____ G splash... or just more Goblins
Sterling Grove ____ what??? They simply sacrifice in resp. Any Goblin would speed you up here and do much better
Thopter Foundry ____ agreed, those decks have many targets for Needle...Sharpshooter
Wasteland ____ How is Wasteland a problem?? Any Other Goblin would be better here
Putrid Imp (yes) ____ any removal, graveyard hate
Goblin Charbelcher ____ Mindbreaktrap, Chalice, Sharpshooter (against the other WC of course)
Mosswort Bridge ____ no SB card at all: Wasteland, Ports seem enough to me
Shelldock Isle ____ Wasteland, Ports again
Knight of the Reliqary ____ Perish
ALL Planeswalkers ____ agreed
Grindstone G splash again
Mother of Runes ____ agreed
Vampire Hexmage (and the combo) ____ no SB card at all: Stingscourger, Warren Weirding, Wasteland are enough
Engineered Explosives ____ no SB card at all. How is Explosives a problem? I mean our curve is balanced at cc1-3, it's never a boardsweeper[i]
Sneak Attack ____ [i]agreed, G splash maybe? =)
Pernicious Deed ____ agreed

2nd part of the question:
I side it in against:
Merfolk: Mutavault/Waste/Corahelm Commander/Vial (if we dont have on opening). ____ no SB card at all: every Goblin is better here
Bant: Top (if he is a good player) and Qasali. ____ Perish is way better here
CounterTop: Top ____ no SB card at all: if they have CB before you have needle you will never resolve it
Landstill: Deed, EE, Factory. ____ agreed (well...EE is not problematic I think)
(4 of 7 off the DtB)

____________________________________________________________________________

I agree with you that Pithing Needle is nice...but for me it's nothing more. I tried it out too, but oftentimes I just didn't want to bring it in because in most cases there were more effective cards against those decks. Plus, oftentimes it's just not as good as any other Goblin in your deck. I added alternatives for needle to your list above in italics
I guess with the right tactics and you can do well without Needle. I use my SB slots for cards that save my ass. Needle is not that good in saving our asses, because it's only "nice" and not gamebreaking-good.

ScatmanX

08-30-2010, 02:11 PM

Sensei's Divining Top (therefore CB/Top lock) ____ no SB card at all: every Goblin would be better than Needle hereNot an argument

Umezawa's Jitte (and ALL other equipaments) ____ with G splash it's obv. Grip/Nature's Claim. In Rb it's possible to keep creatures away from jitte Sometimes it is possible. Sometimes not.

Qasali Pridemage (After naming Jitte) ____ I'd let Pridemage eat Jitte (if I was to play Jitte Jitte is bad in goblins

Survival of the Fittest ____ G splash again...or graveyard hate! I prefer Rb. I also have Grave hate.

Grim Lavamancer ____ no SB card at all:any removal (never found him problematic though) Needle is not just for him in decks that use him.

Veldaken Shackles ____ G splash... or just more Goblins Again, not aways a possibility.[/QUOTE]

Sterling Grove ____ what??? They simply sacrifice in resp. Any Goblin would speed you up here and do much better Needle is 1cc, Grove is 2cc. Just saying.

Thopter Foundry ____ agreed, those decks have many targets for Needle...Sharpshooter I also have Shooter.

Wasteland ____ How is Wasteland a problem?? Any Other Goblin would be better here Well, it saved my ass many times, with Crucible out or not.

Putrid Imp (yes) ____ any removal, graveyard hate Needle comes online before he can discard anything if you go 1st. Also, I do have grave hate you know...

Goblin Charbelcher ____ Mindbreaktrap, Chalice, Sharpshooter (against the other WC of course) I don't use slots specifically against combo, but thats my choice. It's nice to have a card that serve this purpose aswell.

Mosswort Bridge ____ no SB card at all: Wasteland, Ports seem enough to me I really like maxing my outs here. Up to choice I guess.

Shelldock Isle ____ Wasteland, Ports again Again. Rather have 10 answers than 6-7...

Knight of the Reliqary ____ Perish Good thinking...

Grindstone G splash again not needed.

[B]Vampire Hexmage (and the combo) ____ no SB card at all: Stingscourger, Warren Weirding, Wasteland are enough Are not enough. Sting only works if you have Vial@2, because he sacs EoT. He can do it to responde to Waste. WW is really a good choice.

Engineered Explosives ____ no SB card at all. How is Explosives a problem? I mean our curve is balanced at cc1-3, it's never a boardsweeper[i] I really don't like when my opponent opens with: land, EE, go.

[B]Sneak Attack ____ [i]agreed, G splash maybe? =) not needed. Also, they usually don't pass priority before putting a 15/15 into the battlefield...

2nd part of the question:
I side it in against:
Merfolk: Mutavault/Waste/Corahelm Commander/Vial (if we dont have on opening). ____ no SB card at all: every Goblin is better here You're really confidant against Folk. I'm not. I even put ReB in. To me, an 1cc card that answers all those problems is worth boarding.

Bant: Top (if he is a good player) and Qasali. ____ Perish is way better here Agreed. I also run Perish

CounterTop: Top ____ no SB card at all: if they have CB before you have needle you will never resolve it Needle is 1cc. Drop it turn 1. Also, I know that is hard to resolve a Needle against CB, but it is a MUST counter for them, so often enough they have to flip Top, leaving us open for any other spell. Also, I have ReB, so can kill CB in response to Top activation.

I agree with you that Pithing Needle is nice...but for me it's nothing more. I tried it out too, but oftentimes I just didn't want to bring it in because in most cases there were more effective cards against those decks. Plus, oftentimes it's just not as good as any other Goblin in your deck. I added alternatives for needle to your list above in italics
I guess with the right tactics and you can do well without Needle. I use my SB slots for cards that save my ass. Needle is not that good in saving our asses, because it's only "nice" and not gamebreaking-good.

I know the deck does well without Needle, but IMO it does better with them.
I also realize it is not a "saved my ass" type of card. It is a crippling card. At 1cc, you can stifle your opponent strategy, and that is a huge tempo boost. And I realize you have others answers to all problematic cards. But having an 1cc, that can handle them is too much valuable for me.
Also, I like to think of it as a swiss knife. I usually don't board it in for just 1 target. All decks it comes in (except combo) have 2-4 juicy targets for Needle. If there is just 1, it is usually not worth it (again, combo exception).

GoboLord

08-30-2010, 02:43 PM

Mantis

08-31-2010, 04:11 AM

I did about 20 games of quick two fisted testing UG Survival Madness against Goblins and have to say that Survival did seem to have the upper hand. Two fisted testing is nowhere near perfect, the additional information obviously influences decisions from both sides. The goal of the exercise, however was not to determine the matchup percentage but instead determine how the matchup plays out and what key factors are.

What I've found is that Survival gains an almost unsurmountable advantage once it's namesake hits, even Perish didn't save me most of the time. They also have Jtite, a second big problem. I expect the deck to become quite popular as it's just a very good deck. An answer is in order, the two options are Needle and Krosan Grip. I tested Needle and was pleasantly surprised with it's effectiveness. I did not test Krosan Grip, will do that today.

I also agree that Needle could be quite effective against Landstill-esque decks. However I have my doubts about your Merfolk plan, as long as you draw Goblins and lands you should win, as all Goblins are just so good against Merfolk. By siding in Needle, you dilute your deck and the chance of drawing a healthy mix of Goblins and lands decreases. I do side in REB against them, because they are in my sideboard anyway.

Because of Madness Survival my opinion on Needle has changed, I might play it after all.

GoboLord

08-31-2010, 06:29 AM

Just want to note something from a psychologist's point of view:

Our estimates of what decks "become popular next time" are heaviliy influenced by what we think about in our free time.
e.g. When I think a lot about how to beat ANT I am more likely to expect that deck at the next tournament. Therefore I prepare my sideboard for that and I may be disappointed because I just won't face it.
To "protect" ourselves from this effect it's a good idea to look at meta-breakdowns of the last tourneys.

Magic is much about psychology, maybe this will help.

ScatmanX

08-31-2010, 06:55 AM

Ok I think I understand you a bit better now, thanks for explanation.
Still I'm not convinced that this card would possibly cover one slot in my SB, but this is about playing style I guess.

I'm interested how your SB looks like with Needle, would you like to share it?

My list and SB are preety much the same I run in my last 2 champs here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18408-Top-2-with-Rb-Goblins-83-people-tournament) and on post #5083 in this thread (where I have played Vengevival.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre / Planar Void (depending if I expect Dredge/Reanimator/Loam/Survival
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast

4th Perish floats between 2nd ReB or 5th grave hate.
In my list, P. Needle could be: Combo hate; Blood Moon; K.Grip if you're playing green, though I like the way it is now.

I understand that Needle is not the most busted card printed, but didn't want people to disconsider it so easily.

@Vengevival: I do not think the MU is in theyr favor. You can read my games on post 5083.
We have grave hate to deal with it; Perish to deal with it; Needle to deal with it (or K.Grip); Knesis, that also helps a lot here, so is just a matter of choosing what route you want to play. Usually, Perish+a grave hate solve it.
I do believe Vengevival is a very good deck, but think our 75 are already prepared for it.

Oiolosse

08-31-2010, 08:01 AM

@ScatmanX--I have never played Gobs but happened to poke my head in and see your explanation on the usefulness of Needle. My homebrew lockdown pet deck has been hurting for some time now. I can't seem to find the balance between denying them the pleasure of playing Magic and actually winning. You may have just solved the former. I Winter Orb/Port or Tangle Wire or Sphere of Resistance or (other lock pieces tried) and never can I beat decks that run wretched vial (and sdt is a problem as well, smooths out their draws for finding more lands!). Once they drop vial no amount of mana denial on my end is any good save propaganda. I will MD needle ftw! Oh hell, it even stops EE and Deed from x-1'ing my dork army. Thanks man!

ScatmanX

08-31-2010, 12:00 PM

antonbystedt

09-01-2010, 06:49 AM

Hey guys, i have some decklists to share and i want all of your suggestions.
I've been playing Goblins for 2 years and have had pretty good succes with it.

I have 2 different decklists, i'll start with number 1.

This Decklist have been tested in my meta (show and tell, rock, merfolk, standstill, new horizon, zoo, and more. Normal ish meta).
I've went to 3 tournaments with decklist and went, 3-1, 3-1, 3-1 on these tournaments.

4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Weirding
4 Lightning Bolt
3 AEther Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
6 Mountains

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Perish
3 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Blood Moon
3 REB

The gameplan is pretty simple here, kill the opponents early creatures so you can get a beat with either Lackey or Instigator, and hopefully the opponent can't keep up with the tempo.

This decklist has yet to be tested, but i think this decklist will be much more effective in an unknown meta.

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 MWM
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 TSH
1 Stingscouger

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
7 Mountain

SB:
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blood Moon/REB

Well the gameplan is not as aggressive here as my other decklist, this seems to be more controlling and more effective in an unknown meta.

So guys, what are your thoughts, what Goblin list would you play in an unknown meta? Any of those 2, or maybe another?

GoboLord

09-01-2010, 11:35 AM

To prepare for an unknown meta I'd put as many flexibility to your deck as possible. Preparation for metas (in Goblins) is mostly about sideboard slots.

What makes your MD flexible is removal. Therefore I'd run 8 removals slots which are splitted 2-2-2-2 or 2-3-3 or the like. I wouldn't run any removal as a 4-off, because that makes your deck less flexible.

The following cards are what I consider "flexible sideboard slots":

- Pithing Needle
- Red Elemental Blast
- Krosan Grip/ Nature's Claim
- Goblin Sharpshooter
- Perish

Your SB should run 7-8 card against combo and graveyard-based decks.
Flexible combo hate: Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void
Flexible graveyard hate: Fearie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt

I cannot tell wether the one or the other deck is better. I'd just pick the core cards (look at my list on page back) and build the other cards around them.

bakofried

09-01-2010, 02:39 PM

Right now my SB looks like this:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
It's tailored to stomp on U/R Sneak Attack, as well as random blue decks. I keep both Scrapper and Tinkerer in there, just because they're suited to different roles. I've seen a Dreadnought or two stomping around, so that's what Tinkerer is for, not to mention random Affinity/Top (I know they'll just draw, but it would turn it into a tempo sink), whereas Scrapper is to handle Jitte's and the like. Sharpshooter, random tribal decks. 4th Scourger to fight Nought's and SnT'd Emrakuls. Eh, it's a work in progress, tell me what you think.

jrw1985

09-02-2010, 12:02 AM

StarCityGames.com Minneapolis Open Legacy Tournament Report by Jonathan Watry, 4th Place

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator

Tribal Sorcerys
2 Warren Weirding

Basic Lands
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Rishadan Port
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Anarchy
1 Nature's Ruin
2 Perish

Round 1 – Stifenaught
Game 1
He’s on the play and the first few turns pass with a couple of fetches and my Lackey/Vial being Forced. He plays a Mishra’s Factory, then another and starts attacking. I keep wading through his counterspells and eventually land a Warchief, then I start attacking too. When we’re both at 14 he makes his move and Trinket Mages into a Dreadnought that he Stifles. Good times. I have the Warchief and Piledriver in play and a Gempalm and Weirding in hand. Next turn he taps out to activate both Factories and swings with everything. I initially want to block Trinket Mage with Piledriver since he’s ProBlue, but I realize that since my opponent tapped out I can Weirding his Dreadnaught next turn if I kill his Mage in combat. So, I Gempalm one Factory, sacrifice Piledriver to the other, trade the Warchief with the Trinket Mage, and eat 12 from the Naught, putting me at 2. The next turn I Weirding his Dreadnaught away and cast a blocker. I also fetch going down to 1 life, because he’s not going to kill me with just one point of damage (all his creatures thus far have been 2/2). His hand is exhausted at this point and Matrons, Ringleaders, and Seige-Gang Commanders refill my board and overwhelm him.
Game 2
I side in Tinkerer and Shusher for the Instigators.
He plays an Island. I play a fetch and crack it (despite having a basic in my hand) and it is quickly Stifled. I felt pretty dumb falling to his deck’s turn 1 namesake. Then I think he Forces a Lackey. I play a Vial, he plays Pithing Needle (a card I greatly regret not having in my sideboard). Though I can’t Vial anything into play I can keep putting counters on it, as that is a triggered ability, not activated. I do manage to get a few goblins into play eventually, and we trade pot shots back and forth. Our life totals stay pretty even all game, but when we’re down to 13 I manage to Lackey a Siege-Gang into play. This prompts him to play an Engineered Explosives for 1 and then ANOTHER for 0. This wipes a lot of damage off my board, but he can’t come up with an answer for the remainder. I wrap it up shortly thereafter. After the match he shows me the Firespouts he sided in. Lucky me they never made an appearance.
2-0
1-0

Round 2 – Merfolk (U/B)
Game 1
He has a turn 1 Vial followed by a Force for a Lackey and a turn 2 Standstill. No reason not to crack it as I have no board position, so I play a Chieftain a few turns later. I get a Piledriver into play and hit him for 6 after taking care of his Mutavault with a Wasteland. I drop a few more Goblins into play the next turn and without a Mutavault the damage will be lethal. He scoops and we head to game 2.
Game 2
I side in Shusher, Tinkerer, and Sharpshooter and take out the Weirdings and an Instigator. I don’t want Weirdings against someone playing Mutavault.
This game is less one sided. I have to crack an early Standstill when neither of us has anything else in play because eventually he’d gonna get a Mutavault and I’ll have to crack it then anyway. My hand is pretty loaded though, and I know some Ringleaders will even out the card advantage he gets from Standstill. Eventually his board is Mutavault, Engineered Plague on Goblins, and 3 Aether Vials at 1, 2, and 3, but he’s run out of cards in hand. I have a Chieftain so I’ve got plenty of 1/1 Goblins on the table. Then I make a huge mistake that almost costs me the game. I attack with everything, including my Chieftain. Dumb dumb dumb. In the heat of the moment (as they say) I forgot that Chieftain isn’t a 2/2 anymore because he doesn’t get his own bonus, so my opponent can just block with a Mutavault (also a 1/1 due to having every creature type and there being an Engineered Plague in play [I just noticed this dissynergy of the U/B merfolk build]). He activated his Mutavault to block my Chieftain, which would essentially kill half my board. Incredibly luckily though, I have a Vial at 2 and a Stingscourger in hand. I use them to bounce the Vault, saving my Chieftain. He replays the Mutavault and has only 1 card in hand, and passes the turn. I draw a Wasteland and destroy his only Underground Sea. Normally I wouldn’t this late in the game since he has plenty of mana, but I want him to have to draw 2 cards to get another Plague in play instead of just one. I win shortly thereafter, and at the end of the game I notice that his last draw was a 2nd Engineered Plague.
2-0
2-0

Round 3 - R/W Sneak Attack
Game 1
My opponent was on the play and led with an Arid Mesa and passed. I played a fetch (over a basic Mountain) and tried to crack it to play a Lackey. In response to my fetch he fetched for a Plateau, which I found very odd, but then he Orim’s Chanted me, and I was denied my Lackey for a turn. Pity too, since I was holding a Siege-Gang I would have quite liked in play on turn two. Since he didn’t Chant me in my upkeep or draw step I would have gotten the Lackey had I just led with the Mountain. I passed, he played a land and passed. I played a land and 2 Lackeys. He then played a third land into a Seething Song, cast and activated a Sneak Attack, and threw an Emrakuel at me. I was down to 4 life and no permanents. He played a Words of War and killed me with his draw step over the next two turns.
Game 2
I side in 2 Thorn of Amethyst for 2 Instigators.
I play a turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Thorn. A few turns and goblins later he Oblivion Rings a Piledriver (had he gone for the Thorn I could have killed him with damage the next turn). I Wasteland a Sandstone Needles and eventually get some goblins in play and beat down for the win. On his last turn he’s able to cast Sneak Attack, but because of Thorn doesn’t have the mana to activate it.
Game 3
I have a strong hand with no 1 drop and a fetch, so I keep it hoping to get him to waste a Chant on my turn 1 fetch like he did game 1. This is exactly what happens, and I’m pleased to get him to throw a card away. Turn 2 he plays a land, I play a Piledriver. Turn 3 he plays a Seething Song into Sneak Attack. I hold my breath. He activates and puts into play a… Darksteel Colossus? I take 11. Turn 3 I cast Warchief and swing for 5, putting him to 14 (he fetched). He doesn’t have another fatty turn 4, and dies next turn when I Matron into a second Piledriver and attack for 17. I’m pretty happy I bluffed out the turn one Chant, because I could have easily lost to a topdeck if he used the Chant to stop my turn 4 attacks instead.
2-1
3-0

Round 4 – Countertop Goyf
Game 1
This is just a good match-up for me. Counterbalance is horrible against Goblins. Too many cards are cheated into play and the curve is too high for Counterbalance to work most of the time. Game one was one of those where I took 3 damage from a Goyf somewhere along the line while my opponent’s life total dropped by one, then two, then three, then 13. He never saw a Top this game, and I at one point Ringleadered for 4 new goblins. Game.
Game 2
I side in Tinkerer (expecting to see Top) and Shusher for 2 Instigators.
Once again the game was very one-sided. I never saw a Top and he didn’t side-out the Counterbalances (which I believe would have been in his favor). I fetched 4 times this game, which was the only damage I took. Fetching is great in a goblin deck because it makes your Ringleaders that much deadlier. I had 2 Vials in play at 2 and 4 and I vialed in a Ringleader for 4 more goblins AGAIN! I’d rather be lucky than good. I don’t recall exactly what I got in play, but it was definitely a combination of Shusher, Warchief/Chieftain, Piledriver. Then I Stingscourgered his only blocker (a Goyf). He tried to Force the Stingscourger, but I Shushered it. From a fetch and the Force he was at 18, then I attacked through the open board for 17, and passed the turn. He cast Firespout, and my board was cleared. No matter though. On my turn I upped my vials to 3 and 5, vialed a Matron into play, searched for a Siege-Gang, and won.
Post-match the only thing my opponent said before leaving was, “Nice Ringleaders.” Yes, they certainly were.
2-0
4-0

Round 5 – Dredge
Game 1
I was on the play and my opponent mulled to 5. I built up my board while he did nothing. Turn 3 he discarded a Golgari Grave-Troll at the end step. I got him down to 13. Turn 4 he Dredged the Troll and got a Narcomoeba in play. Didn’t matter though, as the little blue guy can’t block my huge Piledriver.
Between games my opponent mentions that it was the first game he’d lost all day! That’s quite the feet, given the difficulty of finding keepable hands with Dredge. But I would see in the next two games that he knew his deck inside and out, and he played it quickly and efficiently and pretty-damned well.
Game 2
I side in 3 Tormod’s Crypt for 2 Instigators and a Weirding.
This time his hand is a keeper and he overwhelms me pretty quickly. I kept a solid hand but never hit a Crypt.
Game 3
I wish I could remember this one more clearly, because it was a pretty interesting game. I got off to a faster start than him with a turn 1 Lackey. He cast Careful Study to get a Bridge from Below and a Dredger in his graveyard. I eventually got a Siege-Gang in play and sacrificed a token just to get the Bridge from Belows out of his graveyard. It was just in time, too. He went off the next turn but wasn’t able to generate enough Zombies to kill me with a Flame-Kin Zealot. Had he had the extra Bridge he might have been able to get there. As it was, he was in burn range the next turn and I had plenty of Siege-Gang fodder, so the goblins pulled through again.
2-1
5-0

Round 6 – Zoo
Game 1
First turn Lackey for me, first turn Taiga and Nacatl for her. Oh Zoo, the deck that can quickly play bigger creatures than me while removing all my threats. And it was a featured match, broadcast across the web on SCG.com. I was prepared to be embarrassed. Turn 2 I attacked with my Lackey because I had a handful of Goblins and a Wasteland. It was a win-win situation for me because I could either 2-2 her or put a Goblin into play. She thought about blocking, deciding whether I was bluffing her or not. She chose to block. My Lackey died, and I played a Wasteland on her Taiga, killing her Nacatl as it became a 1/1. I think some goblins players get timid with their lackeys. They’d rather send them through a clear board and keep them around until the opportunity presents itself. The way I see it, against Zoo your Lackey is never going to get through, so if you can use it to get rid of one of their creatures then do so. You will outdraw them as the game goes on, so any 1-1 trade is good for your game. After her Nacatl died the Zoo deck lost steam. She had plenty of removal for my goblins, but every 1-1 burn put me further ahead in card advantage, and every Path to Exile thinned my deck and allowed me to cast more goblins the following turn. I managed to get a couple of Siege-Gangs into play, and (unsurprisingly) they won me the game.
Game 2
I side in 2 Perish and a Nature’s Ruin for 2 Instigators and a Gempalm.
Game 2 was very similar to Game 1. She missed her 1 drop and 2 drop and kept a hand of removal and Knight of the Reliquary. This allowed me to play my game of generating creature advantage. She played her Knight and I in turn cast a Chieftain. I had two Mountains and a Wasteland to cast the Chieftain, and I chose him over the Warchief in my hand because I was also holding a Piledriver and Lackey. I saw myself generating a nasty combat phase the next turn, and thought the +1/+1 bonus from Chieftain was clearly better than the 1 cc reduction of Warchief. Well lo and behold she was packing a more diverse land package than the standard Zoo deck, and she used her Knight to fetch a Wasteland of her own. She promptly blew up my Wasteland and when the turn came back to me I was unable to cast both Lackey and Piledriver. I felt a little put out and worried that this would swing the tempo of the game in her favor. Fortunately it did not, and by the time she was able to put a Grim Lavamancer into play supporting her Knight I was able to bounce the Knight with a Stingscourger and swing for lethal with my goblin horde. I didn’t even have to cast the Nature’s Ruin I drew into. I instead decided to hang onto it in case the game took a massive turn for the worse. Fortunately for me, it didn’t come to that.
2-0
6-0

I drew the next 2 rounds and finished the 8 rounds of Swiss 6-0-2 in second place overall, and went into the top 8. I was very happy to see that 5 of the top 8 players were from the store where I play my Thursday night Legacy tournaments. There’s a certain amount of pride in seeing your cohorts putting up impressive showings, and some validation in knowing that you’ve been hanging in there on a weekly basis with players skilled enough to fill the top 8 of a large event.

Quarterfinals – Lands
Game 1
This was going to be an interesting match. I was paired against a deck and player I’ve faced many times before at my local Thursday night events. I knew he was playing Lands, and I was not too thrilled with the matchup. He knew I was playing Goblins, and was well aware of his losing record against me. Of course, now would be the perfect time for him to even the score when the stakes were at their highest. We started game 1 and he quickly got his Life from the Loam engine going. It wasn’t long before I was bogged down by a Tabernacle and locked out by a Glacial Chasm. I couldn’t concede yet, though, because I didn’t yet know what his win condition would be. I’ve played his Lands deck three times in the past and sometimes he’s killed with Mindslaver and sometimes with Factories. I hadn’t seen either yet and he was down to about a dozen cards in his library. It became clear that his kill condition today would be Celestial Colonnade. I still had some hope that if I could draw out all my Wastlands the next few turns he might potentially misplay and deck himself through dredging Loam. Well, not enough Wastelands came to keep me in the game and I lost with about a half hour off the clock.
Game 2
I sided in 3 Tormod’s Crypt and Tinkerer for 2 Weirdings, Stingscourger and a Gempalm.
My opponent mulled to 5 this game. I don’t recall how this the rest went, but his life total fell 19, 18, 15, 8 and then it was over. I’ll just assume he failed to get a Loam going. This was one of those games were Goblins won just because it’s so consistent.
Game 3
Game 3 was broadcast on SSG and is posted at GGSlive.com
He mulled to 6 and started off with a land and Manabond but didn’t dump his hand at the end step. I started off with an Aether Vial. Turn 2 he cast Mox Diamond (ditching a Tropical Island) and cast Gamble, grabbed a Loam, and it was randomly discarded. I had kept an opening hand with Crypt though, so turn 2 I removed his graveyard. He Krosan Gripped my Vial. I cast a Tinkerer. He played a Rishadan Port. I probably just should have blown up the Mox, but I figured I needed every damage I could deal and he had a green mana source in play to cast his next Loam, so whatever, I hit him for 1. He played a Maze of Ith and started using his Port to tap down a Mountain in my Upkeep. At this point I should have used that Mountain to activate Tinkerer and destroy the Mox, because in 20-20 hindsight I realize he cast a lot of spells (i.e. Gamble) with Mox. I played a Ringleader and got a 3 more Goblins, but saw a second Crypt go to the bottom of my library. I attacked with the Ringleader and Tinkerer, and he Mazed the Ringleader. On his turn he played Chasm, sacking Port, then used the Mox to cast Gamble and got a Loam in his graveyard. Curses. I should have been more aware and realized that Mox was his only Red or Blue source, and I knew that Gamble and Intuition were key components of his deck. Anywho, he got another Loam in his graveyard and he was back in business. On my turn I drew a Wasteland, but kept it in my hand for the time being. He had a Chasm and Maze in play, and I had only 2 goblins in play. I knew at this point that I needed a horde powerful enough to bash through for lethal in one attack. It needed to be able to attack through the Maze too, as I would only be able to Wasteland the Chasm. I played a Warchief and a Vial and finally killed the Mox with Tinkerer, then passed the turn. He let the Chasm die in his upkeep, then dredged up the Loam, and Manabonded the Chasm and 2 other lands into play at the end of his turn. To satisfy the Chasm’s enter play condition he sacrificed his Maze. I don’t know if he did this because he now needed more mana lands since I offed his Mox, or if he just forgot that I run Wastelands and he felt Chasm was all the protection he needed. Anywho, since I was holding a Wasteland I now had the ability to get damage through, but not enough guys on the board yet for a clean kill. He Ported one of my Mountains in my upkeep. I had a hand full of Goblins, but still couldn’t play enough for lethal, so I cycled a Gempalm to see what card was next. It was a Matron, which I promptly cast for a Piledriver, setting up my kill next turn. A commentator mentioned that I had “shown my hand” by playing the Matron that turn, and that I should have instead played the second Warchief in my hand and cast the Matron the following turn. He was probably right. My opponent, in his Upkeep, let the Chasm die, then dredged back Loam to put a Wasteland, Urza’s Factory, and Chasm into play at his end step. I think he was trying to get an offensive going, and to do so wanted to start making tokens. We were told before game three began that if time ran out (there was about 15 minutes of play left on the clock) and if there was no winner at the end of time and extra turns, then the winner would be based on life total. Since I have more ways of dealing damage, and we were down to the final minutes, I believe my opponent may have been planning for this eventuality. As it was, he Ported 2 of my Mountains in my upkeep. I played Wasteland and took out his Chasm. He had nothing untapped and no cards in hand. I cast a Chieftain and Vialed a Piledriver into play, then I attacked for more than 20. And that was game.

Semifinals – Painter’s Grindstone (aka Bomberman)
This rather uneventful match was covered at…
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/19979.html
Game 1
I was on the play and had an awesome opening hand. I started with Lackey. He cast a turn 1 Grindstone. I played a Mountain, attacked with Lackey, put a Chieftain into play, then cast an Instigator. ‘This’ll put the pressure on,’ I thought. On his turn 2 he cast Painter’s Servant, then Lion’s Eye Diamond, then activated his Grindstone, and I was dead on my next draw phase. Hmf.
Game 2
I sided in 3 Chalice of the Void (?) and Tinkerer for some Instigators and something.
My opening hand was no good. I think it was a no-lander. I mulled to six and that hand had no gas, but it did have a Weirding which could have disrupted his combo. I decided it wasn’t going to get me there, so I mulled again. My five was a one lander (Port) with a Vial and a Chalice. I thought with Port I could at least disrupt his mana base while Vialing creatures into play and a Chalice at 0 could keep him from going off turn 2 with Lion’s Eye. And it worked! He went off turn 3 instead…
0-2

So my final match was over in a total of 12 turns. So it goes. He expressed that Goblins was one of his best matchups. No surprise then that we didn’t split top 4 prize money. Can’t say I blame him. His deck had 2 games against me that were about as good as they could be, and sometimes that’s just the way the cookie crumbles.

-Final Thoughts-
I was very pleased with my deck’s power and consistency over the course of this event. I think the main deck was pretty well composed. The mana base was solid. The fetches were excellent for thinning the deck, playing around non-basic hate, and securing the necessary mana. 3 Ports and 1 Swamp fit in nicely, and as always 4 Wastelands were exceptional. I liked running the 3 Chieftains as they gave me a certain built-in resilience when I came up against Engineered Plague, and Haste-y Goblins are happy Goblins. The 1-of Stingscourger was always helpful. The 2-of Weirdings saved the day on several occasions. The 4 Gempalms were amazing. Uncounterable creature removal that draws you a card? Yes, please. I ran 2 maindeck Instigators because I thought they were stronger Game 1 than utility goblins, which I relegated to the sideboard.

The one big sideboard regret I have is a lack of Pithing Needles. It would have been great to have a few of those (like, 4) against Sneak Attack and Grindstone, and they could also work wonders against a Survival deck. It’s a card I seriously considered for the sideboard, and having overlooked it cost me my last match and a shot at the Finals.

On the subject of the sideboard, Tormod’s Crypt served me well. I had considered playing Black graveyard hate (Planar Void, Extirpate) but then I remembered Saito’s Merfolk list from the GP. He ran Crypt, despite having access to Black also. His reasoning was that he could play out Crypt without having to slow his board development, and I agree with his logic. If goblins can keep rolling out of the gate while dealing with their opponent’s graveyards they make the clock that much quicker.

I ran 3 Green hosers and 1 White hoser in my sideboard. This has become a bit of a tradition in Goblin decks and I think I’m going to try something untraditional for a while now. Engineered Explosives seems like a decent replacement for the Green and White hosers I ran. It would be much better against Zoo’s early game, useful against Merfolk, and able to wipe out all those nasty one or two cc non-creatures that Goblins seldom have an answer for (like Elephant Grass in Enchantress or Manabonds in Lands, etc.). Since the Goblin curve is so high anyway (only 8 1cc and 6 2cc) Explosives could actually be a viable board sweeper. I’m going to start playtesting it this week.

I sided pretty heavily for the comb matchup (with 2 Thorns and 3 Chalices) only to never see it. Instead I saw combo decks more based around the permanents in play than the spells being played. I think the 3 Chalices will stay in my sideboard, but the Thorns are going to become Needles.

Utility goblins were great out of the sideboard. Tinkerer, Shusher, Sharpshooter, all were excellent to have available. I’m always looking for more goblins to fill the side slots, but for now these three seem to be it.

And that’s that. I had a great time, performed much better than I ever expected, and left with the best finish of my Magic career. Good times.

antonbystedt

09-02-2010, 03:21 AM

Nice report Jonathan! Congrats to your placement!

How would you build your sb now? Considering you said you wanted needle in your sb.

Humphrey

09-02-2010, 04:50 AM

I think the 3 Chalices will stay in my sideboard, but the Thorns are going to become Needles.
.

antonbystedt

09-02-2010, 05:13 AM

Ah, missed that part when i scimmed through the report.

Got my question answered then.

Amon Amarth

09-02-2010, 05:36 AM

I'm curious, when would you side in Vexing Shusher? Against Landstill-esque Control decks? Counter-Top? What has been your experience with him?

Also GJ on the finish!

GoboLord

09-02-2010, 06:32 AM

First of all: congratulations!

I was wondering the same as AmonAmarth: How did Shusher work out for you? I can only find 1 passage in your report where you used him. I'd like to hear a little explanation about what drove you to run him.

Second, I'm curious about your new sideboard that includes EE. Do you have any idea yet how it should look like? Would you change something in your MD because of EE? Splash G maybe? Run less/no Ports? I've tested EE myself a while ago and I like to see how you'd integrate it now.

Justin

09-02-2010, 09:33 AM

Red Elemental Blast probably would have helped in the sideboard. There's a lot of blue-based decks today and it helps you against Painter as well.

Neuad

09-02-2010, 02:06 PM

After a fun fieldtrip into the land of control (landstill and countertop thopters) its time to break out my goblins deck again.

// Lands
3 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [U] Taiga
5 [BRB] Mountain (7)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [EVG] Skirk Prospector

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [M11] Back to Nature

that is what my current build looks like, yes it is 61 cards main. Master Shake has convinced me that running 60 over 61 is really statistically irrelevent especially when theres 61 cards you really want to play. We run out of things to talk about.

My SB is a little bit in flux right now as I try and straighten it out.

3 Perish
4 Leyline's
3 Back to Nature

those are all staying.

3 Pyrokenesis
2 Thorns

are the two I'm thinking about fluxing. How do you guys feel about Anarchy to deal with things like humility/moat? and obviously a white Perish. Or is back to nature enough?

Combo hate, I'm not sure if I want to give that match up as a bad loss or keep the SB slots dedicated to it. Currently there are 3 combo decks running around our meta. Belcher, Doomsday, and TES. I'm contemplating just attempting to race them and hope they go the goblins route so I can sharpshooter ftw, but I'm not sure.

Edit - Skirk Prospector is in there incase I ever get a chance to Kiki-Jiki/Lightning Crafter combo off, but the odds of that happening are slim so I'm not really convinced on keeping him in there, but I want to do some more testing with him.

GoboLord

09-02-2010, 02:43 PM

First of all: Welcome back!

We run out of things to talk about.
No... we are in the middle of 2 discussions that you obviously didn't follow.

My SB is a little bit in flux right now as I try and straighten it out.

3 Perish
4 Leyline's
3 Back to Nature

those are all staying.
If you like statistics then let me tell you the following: The chance to have Leyline on your opening hand with 4 copies in deck is 49,18% - with 3 copies it's 36,89%. I run 3 copies in SB becaue the chance to draw a second one is too high in the course of the game. There goes my first question: When do you bring Leyline in and how does it change your decisions on mulligan in g2 and 3?

An alternative to Back to Nature ist Reverent Silence. What do you think?

3 Pyrokenesis
2 Thorns

are the two I'm thinking about fluxing. How do you guys feel about Anarchy to deal with things like humility/moat? and obviously a white Perish. Or is back to nature enough?

I think Pyrokinesis is a great card but it needs practice to use it right. Many people come to the conclusion that "this card just sucks, cause I always have to pitch my Matron or Ringleader or what ever other wincondition!". Therefore: Use it as LATE as possible.
I wouldn't add Anarchy, maybe you can REPLACE Back to Nature, but adding Anarchy is not an option imo.

Thorn is imo only good for 2 MU's: Combo and Enchantress. Against most other decks it's either useless or there are just better cards waiting in your SB. Therfore: I wouldn't run it as a 2 of if you dont have any other combo hate.

Combo hate, I'm not sure if I want to give that match up as a bad loss or keep the SB slots dedicated to it. Currently there are 3 combo decks running around our meta. Belcher, Doomsday, and TES. I'm contemplating just attempting to race them and hope they go the goblins route so I can sharpshooter ftw, but I'm not sure.

Our MU against TES and ANT is 49-51 in our favor. I explained this like 2 pages ago, maybe you can read the post. It seems though that we win 2-1 most of the matches. Therefore we seem to have rather effective combo hate. Because of this I'd dedicate 3-4 slots to combo hate, it's worth it!

Edit - Skirk Prospector is in there incase I ever get a chance to Kiki-Jiki/Lightning Crafter combo off, but the odds of that happening are slim so I'm not really convinced on keeping him in there, but I want to do some more testing with him.

I wouldn't go for the combo but rather for a synergy between Prospetor-Sharpshooter-Mogg War Marshal

@ you maindeck: I run a 3colored build with 4 Ports and 4 Wastes and I came to the conclusion that we should keep our nonbasic-count low and fetchland count rather high - to be flexible and less vulerable to wastelands. I'd either cut some black cards MD and go for 2 Badlands or just leave them out. Especially with Kiki-Jiki (with mana costs RRR) it's not wise to run 8 colorless lands.

Neuad

09-02-2010, 03:48 PM

No... we are in the middle of 2 discussions that you obviously didn't follow.

That wasn't talking about this thread =p

If you like statistics then let me tell you the following: The chance to have Leyline on your opening hand with 4 copies in deck is 49,18% - with 3 copies it's 36,89%. I run 3 copies in SB becaue the chance to draw a second one is too high in the course of the game. There goes my first question: When do you bring Leyline in and how does it change your decisions on mulligan in g2 and 3?[quote]

I can see running 3 copies being perfectly fine, this SB was kind of thrown together today while I was driving around and I was a little worried about sticking one copy beginning of game and then getting stuck with 2 others in my hand.

[quote]An alternative to Back to Nature ist Reverent Silence. What do you think?

While Rev Silence is nice, isnt giving our opponent life the complete opposite of goblins game plan?

I think Pyrokinesis is a great card but it needs practice to use it right. Many people come to the conclusion that "this card just sucks, cause I always have to pitch my Matron or Ringleader or what ever other wincondition!". Therefore: Use it as LATE as possible.

I will keep that in mind and practice/test with it some more.

I wouldn't add Anarchy, maybe you can REPLACE Back to Nature, but adding Anarchy is not an option imo.

Thorn is imo only good for 2 MU's: Combo and Enchantress. Against most other decks it's either useless or there are just better cards waiting in your SB. Therfore: I wouldn't run it as a 2 of if you dont have any other combo hate.

Our MU against TES and ANT is 49-51 in our favor. I explained this like 2 pages ago, maybe you can read the post. It seems though that we win 2-1 most of the matches. Therefore we seem to have rather effective combo hate. Because of this I'd dedicate 3-4 slots to combo hate, it's worth it!

Well we have alot of enchantress running around our meta, hence the back to natures to get rid of elephant grass. but I guess rev silence would be better against that matchup with Sterling Groves.

@ you maindeck: I run a 3colored build with 4 Ports and 4 Wastes and I came to the conclusion that we should keep our nonbasic-count low and fetchland count rather high - to be flexible and less vulerable to wastelands. I'd either cut some black cards MD and go for 2 Badlands or just leave them out. Especially with Kiki-Jiki (with mana costs RRR) it's not wise to run 8 colorless lands.

I'm not impressed with running 8 colorless sources and thinking of cutting ports for 2 reasons, I dont have access to any and 8 colorless sources is just too much.

jrw1985

09-02-2010, 03:55 PM

Nice report Jonathan! Congrats to your placement!

How would you build your sb now? Considering you said you wanted needle in your sb.

Sideboard

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Vexing Shusher

I'm curious, when would you side in Vexing Shusher? Against Landstill-esque Control decks? Counter-Top? What has been your experience with him?

He comes in against anything with counters (In my report that was Stiflenaught, Merfolk, and Countertop). Counters are huge in the format, and if you can side in 1 card to shut down 12 of your opponent's cards, that's pretty powerful. Also players tend to forget about him and then try to Force a Ringleader later on. Nothing puts a player on tilt (I hate to use poker terminology) like blowing 2 cards and 1 life on a spell that becomes uncounterable (which happened in my Countertop matchup). So, yeah, I'm pretty pleased with him.

Second, I'm curious about your new sideboard that includes EE. Do you have any idea yet how it should look like? Would you change something in your MD because of EE? Splash G maybe? Run less/no Ports? I've tested EE myself a while ago and I like to see how you'd integrate it now.

I don't plan on changing the MD at all. I just thought that EE at 1 or 2 was much better against Zoo than Perish (which cannot hit Lavamance, Loam Lion, that stuff) and clearly far, far more flexible. I don't know if it's the right thing to do yet, but I'm looking forward to trying it out. Also, I like the idea of using it against control decks like Lands, Enchantress, what-have-you.

Red Elemental Blast probably would have helped in the sideboard. There's a lot of blue-based decks today and it helps you against Painter as well.

I have problems with REB because, like Perish, it's extremely narrow in it's application. Half the time it's just going to be used on a counterspell anyway, and I'm already siding Shusher. Plus, it thins the deck of goblins and only provides a 1-1.

Aside-
I carried out a somewhat derogatory exchange a while ago about anti-combo SB options. I was initially against using Chalice but, to the credit of whoever it was I was arguing with, I ultimately went with them.

ScatmanX

09-02-2010, 04:00 PM

Edit - Skirk Prospector is in there incase I ever get a chance to Kiki-Jiki/Lightning Crafter combo off, but the odds of that happening are slim so I'm not really convinced on keeping him in there, but I want to do some more testing with him.

You know, with Crafter/Kiki/Shooter, you already got the kill. No need for Prospector.
Make a copy of Crafter. Cahmpion Kiki. Tap Shooter. Crafter-copy kills itself. Shooter untaps. Kiki returns untapped.
Repeat.

While Rev Silence is nice, isnt giving our opponent life the complete opposite of goblins game plan?

And using 2 Mana instead of dropping Goblins isn't?
I think the tempo sink of both are the same.
And if I where to run green, I'd prefer K.Grip. (if anyone asks...)

GoboLord

09-02-2010, 04:34 PM

You know, with Crafter/Kiki/Shooter, you already got the kill. No need for Prospector.
Make a copy of Crafter. Cahmpion Kiki. Tap Shooter. Crafter-copy kills itself. Shooter untaps. Kiki returns untapped.
Repeat.

You need Prospector if you don't have Shooter.

1. C and K untapped
2. C taps for damage
3. K taps to opy C. Copies swallowing K.
4. Copies kills itself
5. K commes back untapped, C is still tapped

ScatmanX

09-02-2010, 04:36 PM

You need Prospector if you don't have Shooter.

1. C and K untapped
2. C taps for damage
3. K taps to opy C. Copies swallowing K.
4. Copies kills itself
5. K commes back untapped, C is still tapped

Yes.
You need Prospector OR Shooter.
That's what I said...

GoboLord

09-02-2010, 04:43 PM

GoboLord

09-02-2010, 04:49 PM

Yes.
You need Prospector OR Shooter.
That's what I said...

Yeah sry, I managed to misunderstand your post twice

ScatmanX

09-02-2010, 05:12 PM

The difference is, that you can cast Rev. SIlence any time you control a forest while the other one can be played every time you have 2 mana left. The temposink IS the same, yeah.

I'd prefer Grip or Nature's Claim too btw. What Do you think of Nature's claim, Scatchman?
I bring it in against combo too, to destroy my vials/chalice in response on the any Tendrils copy and gain 4 lives

@ GoGoLord: I think Nature's Claim is a valid option for SB instead of Krosan also. Haven't tested it yet, but seem quite solid.
Nice Idea versus combo also. That can nail you a few games.
I tested Grip while CB/Top and Stiflenought saw a lot of play. Maybe, in today's metagame, if you don't see a lot of those, Nature's Claim would be my 1st option.

Question: Do you side it in against Goblins? Merfolk? Death and Taxes?

Neuad

09-02-2010, 05:39 PM

Prospector is out since I can combo off with Kiki Crafter and Sharpshooter also, and Sharpshooter is obviously better.

Vexing Shusher is MB now.

SB looks something like this now

3 Perish - Obvious
3 Thorns - Storm and Enchantress, totals about 5-6 decks any given week in my meta so possibly more
3 Pyrokenesis - Still gotta do some testing and learn this card
3 Leylines of the void - Survival decks, which we have 2-3 of any given week. Dredge which I've seen 1-2 up there, possibly enchantress to stop replenish?
3 Reverent Silence - Moat, Humility, enchantress.

Edit - Manabase looks like this now, since I relized I don't have easy access to Ports

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mires
4 Wastelands
2 Taiga
6 Mountains
2 Wooded Foothills

GoboLord

09-03-2010, 03:10 AM

@ GoGoLord: I think Nature's Claim is a valid option for SB instead of Krosan also. Haven't tested it yet, but seem quite solid.
Nice Idea versus combo also. That can nail you a few games.
I tested Grip while CB/Top and Stiflenought saw a lot of play. Maybe, in today's metagame, if you don't see a lot of those, Nature's Claim would be my 1st option.

Question: Do you side it in against Goblins? Merfolk? Death and Taxes?

Sorry Scatman :D.

If you are aiming at the Vial-component of their decks: no.
Since D'n'T is likely to run Jitte and Swords I'd always bring it in against them. Plus, they are unable to counter it and the damage race against them isn't too hard, so this are the things I'm considering.
Against Merfolk: If I get to see Jitte in g2 I'd bring Claims in in g3. Since the damage race is a bit harder here AND they have counters I would not bring it it to only hit Vial.
Against Goblins: Never. The last thing I want to do is to donate my opp 4 lives. Plus, every card in our MD is more useful against Gobins than Nature's Claim is.

Prospector is out since I can combo off with Kiki Crafter and Sharpshooter also, and Sharpshooter is obviously better.

Vexing Shusher is MB now.

SB looks something like this now

3 Perish - Obvious
3 Thorns - Storm and Enchantress, totals about 5-6 decks any given week in my meta so possibly more
3 Pyrokenesis - Still gotta do some testing and learn this card
3 Leylines of the void - Survival decks, which we have 2-3 of any given week. Dredge which I've seen 1-2 up there, possibly enchantress to stop replenish?
3 Reverent Silence - Moat, Humility, enchantress.

Edit - Manabase looks like this now, since I relized I don't have easy access to Ports

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mires
4 Wastelands
2 Taiga
6 Mountains
2 Wooded Foothills

Straight mana base!
I run 2 Kinesis. Maybe you can cut one and go up to 4 Thorns? But this is what testing wil reveal.
I wouldn't bring Leyline in against Enchantress cause it stops only 3 cards of their deck. Thorn and SIlence should do it.
Against Survival decks I bring in Leyline in g2. When it comes to g3 I exchange it with Reverent Silence (cause they will board Krosan Grips to go for your Leyline)

JonBarber

09-03-2010, 08:08 AM

I really like kgrip more than nature's claim. The speed difference is not THAT big of a deal. The things I'm hitting it the most with are Moat, Humility, E plague, and Jitte. Almost all of the decks that play these cards also back them with counterspells. Therefore I find it much more valuable to be positive I'm gonna destroy their bomb then get screwed by a force. Although that nature's claim trick vs storm seems narrow, but hilarious if it actually works.

Micki

09-03-2010, 03:15 PM

Hello everybody and greetings from Finland!

I need help with my Goblin deck!!
First some history;

1) I have NEVER played Goblins in a competition, all my thoughts are from goldfishing and playing "casually" with some friends.
2) I DO know that this is a DTB thread and if posting here with just questions and not much experience to share is wrong, then hopefully someone with the right authorization will delete this post.

I quit magic (once again) about 6 months ago mainly because I'm old enough to be father to most of you and I felt a bit stupid :) And once again my passion for this stupid game became to strong for me to think about trivial things like age....
I used to play Zoo or BWG -Deadguy but got bored with both and now I want to start playing the deck I always wanted but never got around to playing, here are my reasons for "why goblins";

1) This and burn are the only decks that I still have the cards for.
2) Burn is too boring
3) This is the only deck I still have the cards for :)
4) Since I don't have the time to play much and I don't know other decks good enough, I need to play a deck that is more focused on winning than preventing the opponent from doing so. I simply wouldn't know what to FoW if I played control or what to make the opponent to discard if I played black.
5) I have always wanted to play Goblins and as someone said earlier on this thread, the quest to find solutions from a limited card pool intrigues me much more than having 4-5 colors to choose from.

So here's the list I'm sitting on right now, followed by questions and thoughts;

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

4 Aether Vial
2 Pyrokinesis

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
1 Lightning Crafter
2 Warren Instigator
1 Goblin Chieftain

Very very "raw" sideboard

3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Anarchy
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin King

I don't know the meta here well enough right now to try to optimize the deck against something so I want to keep the MD as close to an optimal goldfishing list as possible, this is why I have Instigators for instance though they aren't played much. Here's some cards I'd love to fit in but don't know how; Mogg War Marshall, Kiki-Jiki, mirror breaker and maybe one more Goblin Chieftain.
I'm VERY thankful for every comment, suggestion, thought or feedback You can take your time to give me!! Here are some things I've been wondering...

1) Are Perish and Warren Weirding important enough to invest in badlands and red fetches (which I don't have anymore) or can the deck be played well enough as mono R?
2) Does anyone use Leyline of the Void in a mono R SB?
3) The 2 Pyrokinesis MD might seem quite unusual but I want to have 6 removal spells that I can tutor for and I've played mostly against elves... Is 2 pyrokinesis MD a totally stupid idea?
4) Is there any point in playing Kiki-Jiki without both Lightning Crafter and Sharpshooter/Prospector?
5) What would a "basic" mono R sideboard look like today? At least earlier the meta here in Helsinki have been quite balanced (aggro/control/combo).

I all ready said that I'm aware that this is a DTB -thread so there is no need to comment on that, otherwise feel free to laugh, shout, advise, suggest or whatever the way you like to comment. If my list looks totally hopeless and I would be better of playing 40 Lightning Bolts or if I should return when I've bought the duals to make the deck 3 colored, do tell me...

My humble goal is to be the best Goblin deck in the Finnish Legacy champs late October/early November :) I neeed help!!!
Btw. English is very far from being my native language so please excuse me if I don't sound very fluent!

Many thanks in advance!!

JonBarber

09-03-2010, 03:23 PM

TossUsToLions

09-03-2010, 03:47 PM

Neuad

09-04-2010, 12:38 AM

Weather you use Rev Silence or Back to Nature. . . how do you work around Karmic Justice? Or do you just hope to be able to clear the board and swing for lethal before they get one?

Amon Amarth

09-04-2010, 02:02 AM

If you can avoid fetching out your Taiga most of the time they won't board in Karmic Justice. If worst comes to worst, yeah, just build up lethal and sac a bunch of lands and win.

Neuad

09-04-2010, 12:05 PM

Well they get to choose the targets, and Enchantress is a huge part of my meta. We have 3-4 that run around weekly.

I was talking to my friend last night and he said he was planning on mainboarding a Karmic Justice :(

Justin

09-04-2010, 09:16 PM

Hello everybody and greetings from Finland!

1) Are Perish and Warren Weirding important enough to invest in badlands and red fetches (which I don't have anymore) or can the deck be played well enough as mono R?
2) Does anyone use Leyline of the Void in a mono R SB?
3) The 2 Pyrokinesis MD might seem quite unusual but I want to have 6 removal spells that I can tutor for and I've played mostly against elves... Is 2 pyrokinesis MD a totally stupid idea?
4) Is there any point in playing Kiki-Jiki without both Lightning Crafter and Sharpshooter/Prospector?
5) What would a "basic" mono R sideboard look like today? At least earlier the meta here in Helsinki have been quite balanced (aggro/control/combo).

Many thanks in advance!!

1) I think the deck can play well enough with mono red. Mono red has some advantages, as it is less fragile to Wasteland and other non-basic land hate. If you are running, mono red, you should definately be playing Ports, however.

2) No. Go with Relic of Progenitus for your graveyard-hate sideboard. Removing your graveyard doesn't hurt and the extra card is really nice. Best of all, this card definately won't hurt your budget :)

3) I've seen Pyrokenesis in the main deck, but I wouldn't recommend it. You have enough removal in your main deck as it is. I agree with the recommendation that you should replace them with War Marshals and/or Chieftains.

4) Most experienced goblin players do not play Kiki-Jiki. The reason is that it is a "win more" card. This means that it is only really great when you are already winning (i.e. have a lot of great goblins already on the board to copy). It is a poor topdeck after your board has been wiped out by a firespout or other mass removal. I would recommend just playing an extra Siege-gang Commander in the Kiki-spot. Siege-gang is a great top deck after your board has been cleared.

5) It's hard to answer this last question. I would definately go with gy hate (relic), you can have your pyrokinesis in the side. Your rough sb isn't too bad. I like the idea of having a toolbox of one-of goblins that you can fetch with Matron (Shusher, Tinkerer, Sharpshooter, etc.). Personally, I see a lot of blue decks, so I would recommend playing some anti-blue hate (like Red Elemental Blast), but not everyone agrees.

Nidd

09-04-2010, 10:18 PM

If your Meta is creature-heavy, play War Marshals and consider a 1-of Lightning Crafter.

In my testing, that dude has been a house against creature-based decks.
Maybe it's the german Meta or something, but I don't see Sharpshooter being any good here at all. In which MUs do you folks side him in?

bakofried

09-04-2010, 10:21 PM

Again, here's my sideboard, if it helps:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger

kinda

09-05-2010, 03:50 AM

So I top 16'd again at Jupiter this weekend with Rw goblins going 5-2...unfortunately I had to settle for arid mesas this time instead of strands, but it was fun and I was very pleased with the deck.

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Instigator
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Plateau
6 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa

SB:
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
3 Disenchant
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Goblin king

The changes I would make would be -1 Goblin King, -1 Chalice of the Void, -1 Blood Moon, +3 Burrenton Forgetender. As usual disenchant/swords were awesome...the three times I've played goblins (Rb 3-4, Rw 5-2 twice) I've wanted disenchant in at least two matchups. My matches went: ubg countertop 2-1, 4c counterbalance w/ firespout 1-2, burn 1-2, new horizons 2-0, gbr survival 2-0, probant 2-0, rb goblins 2-0.

GoboLord

09-05-2010, 07:57 AM

Hi guys,

I'm in doing some statistics and I need your help.
I need you estimates about certain MUs of Goblins. If you want to help me, please click on the link below and fanswer 7 questions about Goblins' MUs.

Survey (http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=lydjxktj8zvlkql802576)

Thank you!

Neuad

09-05-2010, 03:17 PM

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [U] Taiga
6 [ON] Mountain (3)
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [M11] Back to Nature

That is the final list I've settled on for now.

61st card is Goblin Tinkerer to help even more vs the mirror and merfolk. . .and possibly the random problem artifact that crops up such as an ensnaring bridge, a chalice at 1 early on, 3sphere etc.

I disagree with Kiki Jiki being 'win more' all the time. I have won many games on the back of him alone, weather it be tutoring up the right answer with Matron, drawing more cards with Ringleader, bouncing that one blocker I cant deal with at beginning of upkeep before scourger goes. . . I would never cut him out of my list.

lotriderm

09-05-2010, 10:33 PM

Avatara

09-06-2010, 04:08 AM

Mantis

09-06-2010, 06:19 AM

I second that.
You could have won those games with Siege Gang as well, seriously.

GoboLord

09-06-2010, 07:36 AM

You could have won those games with Siege Gang as well, seriously.

I second that ;-)

ScatmanX

09-06-2010, 08:41 AM

I disagree with Kiki Jiki being 'win more' all the time. I have won many games on the back of him alone, weather it be tutoring up the right answer with Matron, drawing more cards with Ringleader, bouncing that one blocker I cant deal with at beginning of upkeep before scourger goes. . . I would never cut him out of my list.

I kind of agree with Mantis. 1st, you cannot win a game on the back of Kiki alone, once he needs another goblin to be useful, thus making him an horrible topdeck. His ability can easily be stifled by any removal, not on him, but on the creature it is targeting.
I do believe it has helped you win games; games no other goblins would have won if it was not Kiki. Nevertheless, I think that in a lot of games, another SGC would have done the job also, and that there were a lot of times that he was dead, and you lost because it was not a SGC or something else.
The deal is, Kiki is very, very good when it works, and a blast to play. He is just so much fun. I have played him for a long time too. But he is not at all needed. The deck is very consistent as it is. Adding a creature that by it self does nothing makes that consistency worse.Also, there were not a single time that I needed to Matron him, once getting the goblin he was supposed to copy was simply that much safer.
Hope I made myself clear.

@lotriderm :
To win against that is easy. If you want to stay MonoR, then use a Boartusk Liege MD, and one SB. That gives you guys that survive his "Wrath"; The deck has no Daze, so you can curve out perfectly; Run 4 Wastes and 4 Ports. His manabase sucks. There are only 3 Green sources, that you can completely shut down; Jace is easy to kill. SB Needles help, but he is probably boarding him out anyway... so use them to name Top. There you go, his deck has -8 cards; Do not overextend. 2 goblins in play are more than enough to make him Spout. His card advantage is nothing compared to yours; If he has CB/Top on, prefer casting 4cc+ creatures before others; Do not side out Gempalm Incinerator, since he is the only uncounterable removal you have; Again, cripple his manabase, focusing on green and red. The rest doesn't matter.

If you choose to run Black, use a couple of Earwig Squads. If you manage to Prowl 1, you win the game (Just remove the 3 Green sources, or 3 Red ones, and tap the other with Port every turn, so he cant Spout you). There you go.
Perish is not needed.

Humphrey

09-06-2010, 04:10 PM

jrw1985

09-06-2010, 09:00 PM

I'm running MonoR goblins and I have recently ran into some trouble against UGR Countertop (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34659).

Does anyone have any trouble with this matchup or is it just me?

It's just you! Countertop is s great matchup pre and post board. All you really need to do is mull to a hand with turn 1 Lackey or Vial, and their soft-lock is no longer a factor. Then keep the pressure on. Every time they Force or Daze remind yourself that you just 2-1ed them, and you'll be outdrawing them in a heartbeat with Matron and Ringleader.Just keep casting spells and they'll run out of gas. You won't. Piledrivers will be great for you. If they do get their soft lock in play, don't panic. Goblins have a really high mana curve and Countertop doesn't have that many 3 or 4 drops, so you're not even screwed yet. Gempalm is uncounterable, and therefor your friend. Just keep throwing goblins at them. Maybe hold onto a matron or Ringleader so you can reload after Firespout, and you're good to go.

Seriously - When I first started getting into Legacy tourneys I built 2 decks: Countertop and Goblins. I sat down with a buddy and playtested the CT deck. We played 12 games. I won 1 with Countertop. He won 11 with goblins. Don't lose faith. Goblins will get there.

lotriderm

09-07-2010, 02:53 AM

It's just you! Countertop is s great matchup pre and post board. All you really need to do is mull to a hand with turn 1 Lackey or Vial, and their soft-lock is no longer a factor. Then keep the pressure on. Every time they Force or Daze remind yourself that you just 2-1ed them, and you'll be outdrawing them in a heartbeat with Matron and Ringleader.Just keep casting spells and they'll run out of gas. You won't. Piledrivers will be great for you. If they do get their soft lock in play, don't panic. Goblins have a really high mana curve and Countertop doesn't have that many 3 or 4 drops, so you're not even screwed yet. Gempalm is uncounterable, and therefor your friend. Just keep throwing goblins at them. Maybe hold onto a matron or Ringleader so you can reload after Firespout, and you're good to go.

Seriously - When I first started getting into Legacy tourneys I built 2 decks: Countertop and Goblins. I sat down with a buddy and playtested the CT deck. We played 12 games. I won 1 with Countertop. He won 11 with goblins. Don't lose faith. Goblins will get there.

I do fine against most Countertop decks, but this 4colour Countertop has been causing me some problems. I played several games against them and if my Vial gets countered and/or Lackey gets plowed, it really slows me down. They have about 8,9 3cc cards to counter a bulk of our cards and the occasional Jace counters our 4s.

GoboLord

09-07-2010, 02:54 AM

I playtested against combo a while and what sb solutions might be the best. Against TES Chalice was very useful, but against DD-Emrakul it was absolutely useless. I think that Thorn might be the better choice in the end, even if you are risking the 1st/2nd round kill, which happens not that often.
You might call me insane, but since ive lost almost every game 1 turn short of lethal an old card came to my mind, which I always wanted to play
Last Chance (how to link cards btw)

What do you guys think? Maybe Ill test that card for a while.

One of my friends (with whom I playtest the most actually) is a experienced combo-player. He's been through like all inds of BUx storm combo. I already tested Chalice, Thorn, Mindbreak Trap, Pyrostatic Pillar, Red Elemental Blast and no combo hate against him.
He always tells me that it isn't any specific hate that kills him, but it is hate + pressure. He always most happy with hate-cards that cost mana - the more the better. That's why I decided not to play Thorn and Pillar anymore, because they are most likely to slow you "setting up pressure"-plan.
Last Chance costs (just like Thorn and Pillar) 2 mana. To really kill in the extra turn, you need to play it on turn 3, cause before that you wont have done enough damage. Therefore: try it, but I'd guess it does nothing in this MU.
Plus, combo-players oftentimes wait until they are 1 turn short of lethal damage. That gives them time to find Duress/Chant and provides them with more cards in hand (the latter exactly what they need for good DD-piles). So it's not surprising that you often get killed on the last possible moment.

I'd advice Red Elemental Blast and Mindbreak Trap as combo hate.
If they dont see any hate-permanents (Chalice, Thorn etc.) in g2 they will either (1) feel save or (2) assume that you got Trap or some other instant combo-hate on your hand.
(1) If they feel save they just run into your Trap unprotected. Of course, good players won't, but if you are facing some less experienced player he will have a hard time to play around Trap in g3.
(2) If your opponent is somewhat more experienced he will consider Minbreak Trap when building up his hand. I'm not a combo player and I can only say what my friend told me: when you got Mindbreak Trap on your hand go for manadenial! That limits the possible DD-piles AND they are less likely to be able to play Duress/Chant to protect themselves (cause the have less mana).

jin

09-07-2010, 08:55 AM

I kind of agree with Mantis. 1st, you cannot win a game on the back of Kiki alone, once he needs another goblin to be useful, thus making him an horrible topdeck. His ability can easily be stifled by any removal, not on him, but on the creature it is targeting.
I do believe it has helped you win games; games no other goblins would have won if it was not Kiki. Nevertheless, I think that in a lot of games, another SGC would have done the job also, and that there were a lot of times that he was dead, and you lost because it was not a SGC or something else.
The deal is, Kiki is very, very good when it works, and a blast to play. He is just so much fun. I have played him for a long time too. But he is not at all needed. The deck is very consistent as it is. Adding a creature that by it self does nothing makes that consistency worse.Also, there were not a single time that I needed to Matron him, once getting the goblin he was supposed to copy was simply that much safer.
Hope I made myself clear.

Agreed, Seige-gang Commander > Kiki-jiki. Here is a simple test. When someone just sweeped your board with firespout, what are you more happy to see on the top of your deck, SGC or kiki? I vote for the commander. Kiki is just cute, SGC is terrifying.

It's just you! Countertop is s great matchup pre and post board. All you really need to do is mull to a hand with turn 1 Lackey or Vial, and their soft-lock is no longer a factor. Then keep the pressure on. Every time they Force or Daze remind yourself that you just 2-1ed them, and you'll be outdrawing them in a heartbeat with Matron and Ringleader.Just keep casting spells and they'll run out of gas. You won't. Piledrivers will be great for you. If they do get their soft lock in play, don't panic. Goblins have a really high mana curve and Countertop doesn't have that many 3 or 4 drops, so you're not even screwed yet. Gempalm is uncounterable, and therefor your friend. Just keep throwing goblins at them. Maybe hold onto a matron or Ringleader so you can reload after Firespout, and you're good to go.

Seriously - When I first started getting into Legacy tourneys I built 2 decks: Countertop and Goblins. I sat down with a buddy and playtested the CT deck. We played 12 games. I won 1 with Countertop. He won 11 with goblins. Don't lose faith. Goblins will get there.

I admit that Goblins is generally favoured against Blue control decks, but I don't think you should attack other players for their playing style without understanding how the match went. A well prepared CBT deck can have a lot of answers to your goblin horde. You claim to have picked up CBT but allow lackeys and vials to resolve and call the lock soft; maybe it is you who cannot pilot the CBT deck. You should have also switch decks and tried. CBT is a hard lock in Legacy and there isn't really anything that is played that can get through it outside of cards that get cheated in. What you described to "beat" CBT is just how to play goblins. "Use vial/lackey to cheat in ringleaders/seigegangs and kill with piledriver." I'm pretty sure anyone on the forum could have told him that.

Matron and Ringleaders have to resolve before they can give you your advantage and CBT lock can lock them out easily.

What is more useful is probably what ScatmanX said. I think mana denial should be the focus since the mana base is diverse; it is a weakness, however I do disagree with his plan to deny the red/green portion. I think denying the double blue is what you should focus on early on. I really don't think that hitting their splashed colours is as important as hitting their main colour. Counterspell/Counterbalance/Jace2.0/Clique all require double blue. I guess that would be harder since everything makes blue, but it would slow them down more than if you were trying to hit a splashed colour. I think this is significant because without CBT lock, the CBT decks are generally weaker than tempo thresh decks. I guess what I'm saying is, keep them off of CBT lock and it should be a walk in the park.

One of my friends (with whom I playtest the most actually) is a experienced combo-player. He's been through like all inds of BUx storm combo. I already tested Chalice, Thorn, Mindbreak Trap, Pyrostatic Pillar, Red Elemental Blast and no combo hate against him.
He always tells me that it isn't any specific hate that kills him, but it is hate + pressure. He always most happy with hate-cards that cost mana - the more the better. That's why I decided not to play Thorn and Pillar anymore, because they are most likely to slow you "setting up pressure"-plan.
Last Chance costs (just like Thorn and Pillar) 2 mana. To really kill in the extra turn, you need to play it on turn 3, cause before that you wont have done enough damage. Therefore: try it, but I'd guess it does nothing in this MU.
Plus, combo-players oftentimes wait until they are 1 turn short of lethal damage. That gives them time to find Duress/Chant and provides them with more cards in hand (the latter exactly what they need for good DD-piles). So it's not surprising that you often get killed on the last possible moment.

I'd advice Red Elemental Blast and Mindbreak Trap as combo hate.
If they dont see any hate-permanents (Chalice, Thorn etc.) in g2 they will either (1) feel save or (2) assume that you got Trap or some other instant combo-hate on your hand.
(1) If they feel save they just run into your Trap unprotected. Of course, good players won't, but if you are facing some less experienced player he will have a hard time to play around Trap in g3.
(2) If your opponent is somewhat more experienced he will consider Minbreak Trap when building up his hand. I'm not a combo player and I can only say what my friend told me: when you got Mindbreak Trap on your hand go for manadenial! That limits the possible DD-piles AND they are less likely to be able to play Duress/Chant to protect themselves (cause the have less mana).

Agreed, pressure + hate is definately the most difficult to fight against. I also play TES and find that a fast clock can do it, but a fast clock with some speed bumps along the way make the race really hard.

Ranarion

09-07-2010, 09:46 AM

dar482

09-07-2010, 09:51 AM

Since people start playing Lightning Bolt as additional targeted removal instead of Warren Weirding: Wouldn't Smother be a better option? You lose the reach but it kills nearly every relevant creature in Legacy. I played it last year because I didn't like Swords to Plowshares and was very impressed. What do you think?

I don't see why people would do that in the first place. Weirding gets searched up by Matron, you get it off of Ringleader, and even gets cheaper from Warchief. Weirding is sickly good against those billions of blue Goyf strategies.

jin

09-07-2010, 10:20 AM

Since people start playing Lightning Bolt as additional targeted removal instead of Warren Weirding: Wouldn't Smother be a better option? You lose the reach but it kills nearly every relevant creature in Legacy. I played it last year because I didn't like Swords to Plowshares and was very impressed. What do you think?

because when your opponent goes

mountain ==> lackey
you go badlands.. f**k, I wish I had lightning bolt instead of smother. ==> lackey/vial
and then your oppoent goes gempalm, walk in for 1 to bring out my goblin buddies

well, that's the reason I play bolt. it also conveniently hits nacatls and kird apes/loam lions

Mantis

09-07-2010, 10:31 AM

My opinion on the questions that have been raised.

Lightning Bolt; I think I was the first advocate of this card on these boards and I played it in conjunction with Warren Weirding (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32853). I started playing Bolt as an answer to Zoo, the reason for this is the following hypothetical situation: Goblins on the play, Mountain go, Zoo: Nacatl go, Bolt it EOT, Goblins Mountain Instigator, Zoo: creature: Goblins Warren Weirding --> win. The manacost on Bolt also helps you to do several things in one turn.

As an aside: my list for GP Madrid, is in fact the list I play today but -1 Incinerator, -1 Siege Gang, +1 Warren Weirding, +1 Mountain. The sideboard is a mess, right now I'd run 3 Chalice, 4 REB, 4 Needle, 2 Boartusk Liege, 2 Perish.

SGC vs. Kiki Jiki: ScatmanX puts it more politically correct, sure their are corner cases where Kiki Jiki will win you a game no other Goblin could, but these cases are vastly outnumbered by the times SGC is that saving grace.

CB/Top: This is a very good matchup for you. Ringleader is the way you win this matchup. It is the reason you can survive a Firespout and that a CB/Top on the table doesn't hurt you. Resolving Ringleader is your main priority in this matchup, if you manage to chain several of them there is no way they can win.

Needle: I totally revise my opinion on this card. It was invaluable to me at the PT side event (90 players, cut to top4). I went 4-2-1, lost against Survival a very uneventful match, lost the third game against Zoo where we were both manascrewed but he topdecked lands sooner than me and drew against another Zoo player that I would have beaten if given 1 extra turn.. Needle almost won me the match against Survival, but my opponent obviously had turn 2 Survival, turn 3 Krosan Grip (won me game 2!). In this metagame there is just so much Survival that you absolutely need a way to beat the deck, Needle is that way.

TES: GoboLord you make an excellent post there. This is exactly the reason I always run either Chalice or Mindbreak Trap in addition to my REBs.

ScatmanX

09-07-2010, 11:59 AM

... I think denying the double blue is what you should focus on early on. I really don't think that hitting their splashed colours is as important as hitting their main colour. Counterspell/Counterbalance/Jace2.0/Clique all require double blue...

I think denying UU is just too hard, for too little. Usually, Jace2;0 isn't an issue. It is just bad against us, since we can kill it with ease. Same goes for Clique. Counterspells are good for him, but you now whats better? Wiping our board away, or dropping a 4/5-5/6 dude that will win the game. Thats why I prefer denying them the splash colors. (1st green, then red, respectively).

@combo: I'm currently thinking of going up to 3 ReB, and maybe (maybe) 3 Traps in the SB.
For players who have tested it: How often does a config like that leads to a win against Combo?
Right now, theres way more combo in my meta, than grave-dependent decks, so I'd be advocating one for the other...

GoboLord

09-07-2010, 01:38 PM

I think denying UU is just too hard, for too little. Usually, Jace2;0 isn't an issue. It is just bad against us, since we can kill it with ease. Same goes for Clique. Counterspells are good for him, but you now whats better? Wiping our board away, or dropping a 4/5-5/6 dude that will win the game. Thats why I prefer denying them the splash colors. (1st green, then red, respectively).

@combo: I'm currently thinking of going up to 3 ReB, and maybe (maybe) 3 Traps in the SB.
For players who have tested it: How often does a config like that leads to a win against Combo?
Right now, theres way more combo in my meta, than grave-dependent decks, so I'd be advocating one for the other...

I never tested REB + Trap.
Right now I'm testing 3 Traps in SB and it's just awsome. If they lose g2 to Mindbreak Trap they are way slower in g3 because they don't want to take any risk. That's why I'm fine with either: a killer hand that sets up a lot of pressure very fast or nearly any somewhat fast hand with Mindbreak Trap. I mean: there are situations in which your pressure forces them to go off unprotected. That's the moment when Mindbreak Trap is just killer.
If you are up against DDTendrils it takes some practice WHEN to Trap your opponent. After they set up their pile they need to draw the top card. That's usually where I stop them. If they have Sensei's Divining Top in play you should consider Trapping Doomsday. There certainly are DD-piles that can play around Trap.
Back when I was running 4 REB as combo hate it used to work sometimes, but never really stopped them. I used it against Mystical Tutor but right now it doesn't hit that many cards.

Here is our MU against TES/ANT/DDTendrils (I posted it like 10 pages ago):
Goblins - TES/ANT/DDT: 51% vs. 49%

2-0 XX
2-1 XXXXX.XXXXX
1-1
1-2 XXX
0-2 XXXXX.

This means we win most of the games 2-1. Since g1 is likely to be theirs our sideboard plans seem to work.

GoboLord

09-07-2010, 01:57 PM

More statistics...

I posted a link to a survey on the last page. I did that in several other DTB threads too. The surveys were about estimating MU's. Here are the results:

Goblins vs. Zoo

Goblin's average estimate: 44% vs. 56%
Zoo's average estimate: 25% vs. 75%
Actual percentage (taken from a larger analysis of mine): 42% vs. 58%

Goblins vs. Merfolk

Goblin's average estimate: 63% vs. 37%
Merfolk's average estimate: 63% vs. 37%
Actual percentage: 55% vs. 45%

Goblins vs. TES

Goblin's average estimate: 38% vs. 72%
TES's average estimate: 33% vs. 77%
Actual percentage: 51% vs. 49%

Zoo players were actually overestimating theirselves.
Goblins and Merfolk players seem to agree with their estimates while both are wrong.
The same is true for Goblins and TES.

Let me tell you something from a psychologists point of view:
People have the tendency to polarize their memory: Positive experiences are recalled way more positive and negative experiences are recalled way more negative than they actually were - this makes it easier for our brain to store things.
Plus, there is an effect called the "above-avarage-effect". This means that one tends to overestimate his/her own abilities he/she values much. e.g. Male drivers were interviewed in hospital after they had a car accident. 80% of those male participants rates himself to be better than the avarage driver.
Please consider those two when commenting on my post ;-)

Humphrey

09-07-2010, 03:28 PM

GoboLord

09-07-2010, 05:07 PM

Where did you get the actual performances? Top8 Results?
While I agree with your psychological thing, the question is, what sb cards were those decks using. For example I was on a local tournament this weekend and lost 3 rounds in a row. The first 2 matchups were Merfolk which i absolutely prefer, but the had 6 Blasts in the SB + Jitte and Echoing Truth, it was hopeless with my SB. Third round I lost to DD in turn4 twice.

I got the results from personal observations and (to a much larger part) from spreadsheets of several SCG Open legacy events. They contain all pairings from all rounds (incl. finals) of those tournaments.
The unknown variables here are of course: Skill of Player A, Skill of Player B, Specific Decklist of Player A and SPecific Decklist of Player B.

Since I recorded every pairing from - let's say Goblins vs. Merfolk - the records are about the average player with an average list. The actual percentages do of course not fit to everyone. To apply the results to yourself you should consider the relation between your decklist your opponent's and your skill and your opponent's.

Humphrey

09-07-2010, 07:05 PM

jrw1985

09-07-2010, 09:25 PM

I do fine against most Countertop decks, but this 4colour Countertop has been causing me some problems. I played several games against them and if my Vial gets countered and/or Lackey gets plowed, it really slows me down. They have about 8,9 3cc cards to counter a bulk of our cards and the occasional Jace counters our 4s.

If your 1 drop gets Forced, good. You just got a 2 for 1. If your 1 drop gets Dazed, good. Your mana denial will be more effective. If your Lackey gets Plowed? Fine. They only run4 spot removal cards and now they won't have one for a Piledriver. Basically, just keep casting spells. Also, you can sideboard Vexing Shusher to negate Counterbalance and/or Tinkerer to kill Top. Mostly though, don't get discouraged from casting spells if CT is in play. If your spell gets countered you'll know the converted casting cost to avoid and what else you can play from your hand. Worst case scenario you will eventually hit Ringleader or SGC. Don't get frustrated playing against CT. They actually have a horrible matchup against us. Your luck will turn around if you stick to the gameplan (cheat into play, disrupt mana, out-draw for card advantage). You'll get there.

I admit that Goblins is generally favoured against Blue control decks, but I don't think you should attack other players for their playing style without understanding how the match went. A well prepared CBT deck can have a lot of answers to your goblin horde. You claim to have picked up CBT but allow lackeys and vials to resolve and call the lock soft; maybe it is you who cannot pilot the CBT deck. You should have also switch decks and tried. CBT is a hard lock in Legacy and there isn't really anything that is played that can get through it outside of cards that get cheated in. What you described to "beat" CBT is just how to play goblins. "Use vial/lackey to cheat in ringleaders/seigegangs and kill with piledriver." I'm pretty sure anyone on the forum could have told him that.

Oh hush. I wasn't attacking the player. He asked if it was just him, so I said yes! Lighten up. Here's a recent metagame breakdown from starcitygames which puts it all in perspective-
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19770_Way_Too_Much_Information_Compiled_Legacy_Results.html
Goblins had a great showing against CT (73%!). I know CT has evolved since this article was written, with more reliance on Jace and less on creatures, but our matchup with it is still strong. I think lotriderm has just gotten frustrated after a string of bad luck against CT. It happens. I was convinced for the longest time that Zoo was impossible to beat, but I've since seen that it can be ground down and falters once you drag it into the late game. It's all about first impressions. lotriderm probably lost to CT the first couple of times playing against it, and now feels that it's a bad matchup. That kind of thinking leads to bad sideboarding and keeping hands that you shouldn't. And it also affects your play. Once you think you're gonna lose you start to play like you're gonna lose. That's what lotriderm is experiencing (or a vicious string of bad luck-- also part of the game).
So I guess my advice really is this: Do what Goblins do. Mull to strong hands (at least one 1-drop OR a stacked hand with multiple 2-drops). Keep the pressure on all game. Play consistently and you'll get the consistent results. I know anyone on the forum could have given this advice, but that makes it no less applicable.

TossUsToLions

09-08-2010, 12:46 AM

GoboLord

09-08-2010, 03:24 AM

Nice Job, since what date did you start coungting the results? The Merfolk matchup got a lot worse with the printing of coralhelm commander, that might be an explanation for the estimated and actual result.

Are you going to post a complete summary of the poll?

I started recording on the first Legacy torunament this year (02.01.2010) and I recorded only spreadsheets from 2010. Don't know if that includes CC for Merfs.

I will post a complete summary, but not in the Goblin thread of course.

antonbystedt

09-08-2010, 06:03 AM

To start this off, i want to say that im from Sweden so my grammar won't be perfect, with that said, let's begin.

I've had some problems with a consistent MD (been trying Steve Sadin's 9-0 list) but it haven't worked out at all, so after a lot of playtesting (mws, irl, magic online) i've concluded something like this to be my final MD list:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Warren Instigator
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Warren Weirding
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial

3 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
6 Mountain

As you can see, the MD do only have wasteland as mana denial, but this deck is so aggressive so the opponent has to answer on every creature i play the first 3 rounds to not die.

The SB is not yet decided, this is all i've come up to so far:
3 Krosan Grip

I want to play Pyrokinesis since i always get happy when i get to draw it against aggro/mirror.
I also want Perish against Zoo, tempo decks and new horizon.
I also want Blood Moon against landstill (also it's OK against Zoo, they can only play their fireblasts and bolts)
I want Chalice of the Void against combo and Zoo.
I want Extirpate/Relic/Crypt against Survival/Graveyard decks
I want Mindbreak Trap or Thron of Amethyst against Combo

Many of those cards fills the same role but i can't decide what to play... The only thing im pretty sure about is that i want to play Mindbreak Trap over Thorn, since pressure + unexpected hate really helps when facing combo.

But i need help to find a consistent SB (Im pretty sure the MD is consistent as it is, but if you have a tip, please share it). I've played the deck for about 2 years and i have placed very consistent on all legacy tournament, exept one. The sideevent at GP Gothenburg, i went 4-4, before that my worst record was 4-2...

In Gothenburg i played Steve Sadins list and i did not like it (but it was good against mirror, faced 3 mirror games, won 2 pretty stable, the one i lost was kinda close).

I would love to hear all your thoughts.

GoboLord

09-08-2010, 09:22 AM

The SB is not yet decided, this is all i've come up to so far:
3 Krosan Grip

I want to play Pyrokinesis since i always get happy when i get to draw it against aggro/mirror.
I also want Perish against Zoo, tempo decks and new horizon.
I also want Blood Moon against landstill (also it's OK against Zoo, they can only play their fireblasts and bolts)
I want Chalice of the Void against combo and Zoo.
I want Extirpate/Relic/Crypt against Survival/Graveyard decks
I want Mindbreak Trap or Thron of Amethyst against Combo

Many of those cards fills the same role but i can't decide what to play... The only thing im pretty sure about is that i want to play Mindbreak Trap over Thorn, since pressure + unexpected hate really helps when facing combo.

As you said: MD is well structured and looks consitant (although I like Mogg War Marshal more than Warren Instigator). If I understood the concept right you don't play Gempalm in order to consistantly clear the way in your first 2-4 turns. Lightning Bolt and Weirding do better here, right?

I'll focus on your SB:

3 Krosan Grip - should stay there (although I'm advocating Nature's Claim as an alternative)
X Pyrokinesis - should be in your SB, if you know how to use it, it's just great
X Perish - ...also good against any Bant list, Progenitus, Elves etc...
X Bloodmoon- is not needed. CC3 is very high for a non-goblin spell. Your opponents will fetch on basics because they fear your Watselands. It doesnt actually change the board position or turn the match around. Therefore: don't play it.
X Chalice - is nice against Zoo, but nothing more. You have enough cards in SB that are better (Pyrokinesis and Perish) and you don't want to miss your creatures.
X Graveyard hate - I'm an advocate of graveyard hate that youi can play for free: Leyline, Crypt, Faerie Macabre. Should fill 3-4 slots.
X Trap vs. Thorn - agreed, Trap is better (see last page)

Therefore I'd suggest this SB:

3 Krosan Grip / Nature's Claim
5 Perish & Pyrokinesis ( I'd play 3-2)
3 Leyline / Crypt / Macabre ( I play Leyline)
4 Mindbreak Trap

I don't know if he fits into your meta but Goblin Sharpshooter is very flexible too. He burns down: combo's Empty the Warrens, mirror-Goblins, Thopter Foundry Token, Bitterblossom Token, Elves...

My sideboard looks like this:

3 Nature's Claim
3 Perish
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

antonbystedt

09-08-2010, 12:05 PM

Have you tried playing Pithing Needle? I've heard it's a pretty solid card in SB but i've never played it.

ScatmanX

09-08-2010, 12:27 PM

That 4c countertop list can be a bit tricky. Firespout is extremely annoying to play against, and some decks board in a 4th. Just remember not to overextend. I know this hurts your piledriver, but holding onto that Ringleader, Matron, or SGC for after a firespout can win you the game. Also, black splash helps because they usually play 5-7 creatures, so Warren Weirding is a beast against this deck. Pithing Needle in SB helps against Jace if necessary, but he usually isn't the problem, firespout is

I don't think you should hold a Ringleader or a Matron in hand. Ringleader is card advantage, and a 2/2 bod with haste. If they don't kill it in 2-3 turns, you got 4-6 dmg, for "free", since they'll have to Firespout, and then you can cast the goblins you drew.
Matron should be played for Ringleader ASAP. You don't want to give them time to get CB/Top on, once there are usually 5-7 3cc cards on the deck. Also, Matron+Ringleader are 3 dmg per turn, and thats something the CB player cannot ignore.

Edit:
@antonbystedt :
On page 257 we have a pretty good discussion about Needle. Go check that out.

PS: Whats Sadins 9-0 list?

antonbystedt

09-08-2010, 12:44 PM

PS: Whats Sadins 9-0 list?

Well, it's a video on youtube, i can link it:
Legacy Deck Tech: Goblins with Steve Sadin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekylBN29TQ0

Here is the list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Tin Steeet Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
5 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
SB:
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Mogg War Marshal

@Gobolord:
Yeah you are right about MD, the Weirdings and Bolts are there to clear the way for the Lackeys and the Instigator to make a hit, the reason that im playing Instigator over MWM are because i really like to set up quick starts with early removal so the opponent have to respond on what i am doing, rather than playing threats himself.

Thx to the SB tips, it seems to be consistent so i will try it out :)

jin

09-08-2010, 04:07 PM

I think denying UU is just too hard, for too little. Usually, Jace2;0 isn't an issue. It is just bad against us, since we can kill it with ease. Same goes for Clique. Counterspells are good for him, but you now whats better? Wiping our board away, or dropping a 4/5-5/6 dude that will win the game. Thats why I prefer denying them the splash colors. (1st green, then red, respectively).

Well, you just have to keep them on one U for as long as you can while you lay down the beats. The idea is, hopefully you can force them into fetching basics which slows them down a lot. You don't have to deny them of ALL U. Jace2.0 and Clique can both be saved by Karakas.

@combo: I'm currently thinking of going up to 3 ReB, and maybe (maybe) 3 Traps in the SB.
For players who have tested it: How often does a config like that leads to a win against Combo?
Right now, theres way more combo in my meta, than grave-dependent decks, so I'd be advocating one for the other...

I never really liked REB. It feels like if I had mindbreak trap + REB, I wouldn't be able to play anything first tern in fear of not being able to REB. Has that happened to you where you had to choose between REB and vial/lackey??

I think lotriderm has just gotten frustrated after a string of bad luck against CT. It happens. I was convinced for the longest time that Zoo was impossible to beat, but I've since seen that it can be ground down and falters once you drag it into the late game. It's all about first impressions. lotriderm probably lost to CT the first couple of times playing against it, and now feels that it's a bad matchup. That kind of thinking leads to bad sideboarding and keeping hands that you shouldn't. And it also affects your play. Once you think you're gonna lose you start to play like you're gonna lose. That's what lotriderm is experiencing (or a vicious string of bad luck-- also part of the game).

I know what you mean. I felt the same way about zoo last year. Luckily, my goblins finally learned how to block.

So I guess my advice really is this: Do what Goblins do. Mull to strong hands (at least one 1-drop

Thank you, that's wha tI do. I keep telling people to do it with goblins.

ScatmanX

09-08-2010, 04:15 PM

Well, you just have to keep them on one U for as long as you can while you lay down the beats. The idea is, hopefully you can force them into fetching basics which slows them down a lot. You don't have to deny them of ALL U. Jace2.0 and Clique can both be saved by Karakas.
And I thought Karakas only returned Legendary Creatures...

I never really liked REB. It feels like if I had mindbreak trap + REB, I wouldn't be able to play anything first tern in fear of not being able to REB. Has that happened to you where you had to choose between REB and vial/lackey??
I'd go for Lackey, as usual.
My primary combo hate would be Trap. If ReB could nail anything, good. If not, bummer.
It's there mostly for other MU's, not mainly for Combo...

jrw1985

09-08-2010, 10:03 PM

I'd go for Lackey, as usual.
My primary combo hate would be Trap. If ReB could nail anything, good. If not, bummer.
It's there mostly for other MU's, not mainly for Combo...

Gotta start off with Lackey. Put some pressure on.

dar482

09-08-2010, 10:43 PM

Instigator over MWM are because i really like to set up quick starts with early removal so the opponent have to respond on what i am doing, rather than playing threats himself..

I think this depends. MWM is so good against mirror, Zoo, and Merfolk. I especially like it with Cabal Therapy. Personally, I think Instigator is very weak, but if the metagame is letting your 1/1 through, then by all means, get 'em.

jin

09-08-2010, 11:01 PM

And I thought Karakas only returned Legendary Creatures...

Oh man.. now I just look stupid. Sorry, I didn't read the oracle text for this card yet.

I'd go for Lackey, as usual.
My primary combo hate would be Trap. If ReB could nail anything, good. If not, bummer.
It's there mostly for other MU's, not mainly for Combo...

huh.. interesting.. so what is it? a 3/3 split?

TheSleeper

09-09-2010, 12:32 AM

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

09-09-2010, 01:17 AM

Went 3-1 taking 2nd place at 25 person tournament on Labor Day. I ran RB with Instigators, Weirding and Bolts.

15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar - this should have been Thorns
3 Anarchy
2 Nature's Ruin
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Perish

Round 1 vs Living End
This is a kid that usually plays casual and I lent him the deck before the tournament so I know exactly what he's playing. Game one I get him an Instigator gets through unblocked, I win the next turn. During game two I kept a hand that would have easily won turn three, but Living End gets there. Game three I mulligan till I hit Leyline. He can't answer it, and I win.

1-0
2-1

Round 2 vs Mono Green Aggro
I don't remember much, he was playing jank and I easily 2-0 him.

2-0
3-1

Round 3 vs Burn
I play one of my close friends who was in from out of town to play. Game one I roll him on turn three. Light Bolt seriously saved my ass. Game two he gets me on turn three. Game three was utterly depressing. I'm at 4 life. He has no cards in hand. I swing him down to 7 with Instigator dropping double Siege-Gang. He top decks Fireblast for the win. Wish I had my Thorns here. Would have made all the difference.

2-1
4-2

Round 4 vs Zoo Homebrew (with Force of Will? seemed like a tempo thresh shell)
Classmate of mine finally made it to our monthly Legacy tournaments. He beats the crap out of me game one. Game two I kill him on turn 3 and he says he "underestimated my play skill." Game three I get him into the late game, survive two Pyroclasms by holding back Siege-Gang and win shortly after.

3-1
6-3

I walk away with a handful of DCI promos. Overall was a great night.

jin

09-09-2010, 05:32 AM

If you're expecting a lot of Survival, would you go 3 or 4 Pithing Needle? Would you bring in any other cards or thats all you'd 'dilute' your deck with? After dying to a turn 4 Vengevine attack (after casting Perish turn 3) I am pretty wary of this deck atm.

aren't macabre/extirpates better? I got the feeling (from reading a lot reports) that after you remove the vengevines, the deck simply has no monsters.

ScatmanX

09-09-2010, 01:14 PM

huh.. interesting.. so what is it? a 3/3 split?

I think I'm going to test that now... te SB I'm testing is: 3- Knesis, Perish, Needle, ReB, Trap.

If you're expecting a lot of Survival, would you go 3 or 4 Pithing Needle? Would you bring in any other cards or thats all you'd 'dilute' your deck with? After dying to a turn 4 Vengevine attack (after casting Perish turn 3) I am pretty wary of this deck atm.

I guess I will never go up to 4 Needles. If you combine them with Faeries, I think you're in good shape. If you play black, Extirpate is aways a great option.

Nelis

09-10-2010, 03:09 AM

I just got this crazy idea. Lately I've been trying Warren Instigator out because I think the deck sometimes lacks early pressure if there's no Lackey or Vial and in that case we basically have to mulligan. Running Instigators improves this situation somewhat. But that's not the crazy idea I have. If we're running Instigators and Lackeys the deck will be relying on getting them through more than with other builds. Some people have tested Smoldering Spires but them entering play tapped is very bad. So Ive been looking for an alternative and I came across Blinkmoth Well. It doesn't come into play tapped, it gives a colorless mana and it taps a non-artifact creature for 2 (and you have to tap the Well itself). Having Instigators and Lackey connect is tech! Maybe its more suited as a sideboard card against control decks since they run only little creatures (mostly Tarmogoyf)? I guess Rishadan Port should be sided out when these come in. So I wonder if you guys think it might be good enough to try out.

Nidd

09-10-2010, 03:30 AM

Nelis

09-10-2010, 03:47 AM

Alright, I quadruple-checked the card and it still says "2,T: Tap target noncreature artifact."
Noncreature.
Artifact.

Not Nonartifact creature.

Ahh, I'm a victim of my own desires. Bad one. Never mind then.

Nelis

09-10-2010, 05:17 AM

Lets talk about something else. I want to play monoR goblins this weekend at my local tournament. So I like some help on my sideboard. Ill start with my main deck and then expected metagame and then sideboard.

//Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
17 Mountain

Expected metagame:
Burn
Goblins (maybe Dredge)
Vengesurvival (maybe Faeries)
Rock D&T
Supreme Blue
Supreme Blue / Insomnia
Merfolk (maybe Faeries)
Merfolk
NO Counterbalance
2 unknowns, one probably runs blue as well.

The biggest problem I might face is Progenitus.

Sideboard + explanations
3 Pyrokinesis (vs Merfolk and other aggro
2 Relic of Progenitus (vs Survival / D&T / Dredge / randomness)
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Warren Instigator (im thinking of putting these in vs the blue match-ups and maybe Dredge should it appear. I dont want to put them in the main because I still feel a lot of times there's too little cards in hand to put in play))
1 Gempalm Instigator (random aggro)

That leaves 5 cards.

I know at least two players will play Vedalken Shackles so I'm thinking of putting in a Tuktuk Scrapper.
Should I play a 4th Pyrokinesis since it seems around half of the players play aggro?
That leaves 3 slots open. What to put in?

Thanx.

Nidd

09-10-2010, 05:42 AM

If 50% of the Meta is Aggro, Lightning Crafter seems awesome.

Also, in a build with 8 colorless lands, Insitgator seems to be bad. I guess that's the slot for Crafter.
Maybe you can find some slots for Stingscourgers? I've never been disappointed by them.

Neuad

09-10-2010, 12:12 PM

How do you feel about Harmonic Convergence

http://magiccards.info/ul/en/103.html

instead of Back to Nature vs Enchantress? It gets around Karmic Justice which is my huge thing. . .

ScatmanX

09-10-2010, 01:18 PM

I know at least two players will play Vedalken Shackles so I'm thinking of putting in a Tuktuk Scrapper.
Should I play a 4th Pyrokinesis since it seems around half of the players play aggro?
That leaves 3 slots open. What to put in?

No need for TukTuk. Use Pithing Needle. 2 or 3, and bring them in against Survival, CB/Top, Rock, and Vedalken Shackles. Maybe Merfolk.
4th Knesis is nice. Instigator side is not needed. Run ReB if there's lot of blue.
And I think that Faerie Macabre is better than Relic against those decks...
Also, if you're scared of Progenitus, run Anarchy. It is also white! =D

If 50% of the Meta is Aggro, Lightning Crafter seems awesome.

Also, in a build with 8 colorless lands, Insitgator seems to be bad. I guess that's the slot for Crafter.
Maybe you can find some slots for Stingscourgers? I've never been disappointed by them.

The deck has 17 Mountains. Usually, they have less, so no worries about Instigator.
Right on Lightning Crafter and Scourgers.

How do you feel about Harmonic Convergence

http://magiccards.info/ul/en/103.html

instead of Back to Nature vs Enchantress? It gets around Karmic Justice which is my huge thing. . .

Not needed. Also, that card is only good in that MU, while Grip or Nature's Claim are good in several other MU's.
Goblins should beat Enchantress anyway.

antonbystedt

09-10-2010, 04:21 PM

Not needed. Also, that card is only good in that MU, while Grip or Nature's Claim are good in several other MU's.
Goblins should beat Enchantress anyway.

What? How do you reason now? You can't beat Confidement pre sideboard, and after sideboard they got it protected, + they have Elephant grass and stuff to endure the early turns to buy time so they can lock the game down.

Neuad

09-10-2010, 05:10 PM

Plus enchantress is a huge part of my meta. Its like 3 to 4 a week. And they all run karmic justice plus moat, and all the other.trash they have to kick me.

Nelis

09-10-2010, 05:41 PM

No need for TukTuk. Use Pithing Needle. 2 or 3, and bring them in against Survival, CB/Top, Rock, and Vedalken Shackles. Maybe Merfolk.
4th Knesis is nice. Instigator side is not needed. Run ReB if there's lot of blue.
And I think that Faerie Macabre is better than Relic against those decks...
Also, if you're scared of Progenitus, run Anarchy. It is also white! =D

The problem is that its hard to push needle through when theres an active countertop on the board. But I will definitely run a few Pithing Needles.
I want to diversify my graveyard hate that's why I run different hate pieces. I like relic as its permanent based graveyard removal.
I haven't decided yet if I am going to fear Progenitus. When looking at the other matchups its hard to argue for Anarchy. Its only other use might be against D&T Rock.
I don't like Lightning Crafter so I'm going to skip on that suggestion.

For now it will be:
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Gempalm Instigator
1 open slot

Thanx so far.

TheSleeper

09-10-2010, 09:24 PM

What version (mono, red, black) would be best equipped to beat the following: merfolk, bant (progenitus + CT aggro), & UG madness? Is mono good enough along with Pyrokineses/REB out of the board?

ScatmanX

09-11-2010, 10:53 AM

What? How do you reason now? You can't beat Confidement pre sideboard, and after sideboard they got it protected, + they have Elephant grass and stuff to endure the early turns to buy time so they can lock the game down.

From my experience, people side out Karmic Justice against goblins.
Well, I guess that, if you face an Enchantress deck in a weekly basis, you should prepare for it, so running Harmonic Convergence is fine. I just wouldn't do it in a unknown meta.

What version (mono, red, black) would be best equipped to beat the following: merfolk, bant (progenitus + CT aggro), & UG madness? Is mono good enough along with Pyrokineses/REB out of the board?

I'd go for Rb. Merfolk is better with monored, but you have access to Perish against both Bant and Madness, and Extirpate, that is a real killer against Madness.

Neuad

09-11-2010, 12:18 PM

Yeah my meta's enchantresses ethier side it in, or just run it mainboard.

falln

09-12-2010, 09:25 AM

Hi, I'm not new to legacy but I'm new to the goblin warwagon and I figured I'd get some pointers on my list and sideboard from the people who've been playing it more. I chose to go with a black splash because I have the cards available to me and I really like the idea of running Wort, Boggart Auntie.

Creatures 31
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie

Spells 2
2 Warren Weirding

Artifact 4
4 Aether Vial

Land 23
6 mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
2 Auntie's Hovel

Sideboard 15
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Tinkerer

I'm considering the some of the following changes

Option 1
-2 Mogg War Marshal
+1 Siege - Gang Commander
+1 Goblin Chieftain

Option 2 (i miss my chieftains option)
-2 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Goblin Warchief
+2 Goblin Chieftain
+1 Siege-gang commander

Option 3 would take alot more tweaking but I'm considering go heavy Matron toolbox by just running core gobos as 4 ofs then running a bunch of utility one as 1 ofs examples would be like shapshooter, tinkerer, and earwig squad. This is probably the route I'm considering the most and I was wondering if anyone had any experience with that kind of variant.

Let me know and thanks for the help.

JonBarber

09-12-2010, 11:06 AM

You ALWAYS want at least 2 siege-gangs maindeck. He wins games.

TossUsToLions

09-12-2010, 12:10 PM

You always want 2 Siege-gangs and 4 wastelands. Also, you're not going to want to take out a warchief.

Humphrey

09-12-2010, 02:04 PM

yeah -2 Auntie +2 Commader, -1 Port +1 Wasteland and youre good to go.

falln

09-13-2010, 12:06 AM

Ok, heres another update, sorry for having soooo many just trying to fine tune my list for the scg tourney next weekend in maryland.

Creatures 31

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells 2
2 Warren Weirding

Artifact 4
4 Aether Vial

Land 23
6 mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
2 Auntie's Hovel

Sideboard 15
4 Pyrokenesis
3 Perish
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Tinkerer

The changes this time were -2 Mogg War Marshall, it was a great card but I was a bit underwhelmed with its performance after trying and comparing it to a singleton of sgc. Kiki is something I'm trying out in conjunction with sgc / matron / ringleader, I tried Lightning Crafter in Kiki's slot and wasn't to thrilled with it, I liked it when I was able to play it but I always hated having to sac a goblin.

I'm still happy overall with the performance of my SB

Once again sorry for so many posts I'm just really nervous having never attended a LARGE tourney and I want to really have my deck tuned and running well.

Any and all advice would be great

Current thought - is 4 Gempalm MD the right choice, more wondering if I should drop one in favor of another stingscourger
Thanks!

JonBarber

09-13-2010, 02:21 AM

Humphrey

09-13-2010, 05:34 AM

3 ports, 4 waste is the way to go mate

Nelis

09-13-2010, 05:44 AM

For now it will be:
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Gempalm Instigator
1 open slot

This is the sideboard I eventually used:
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Thorn of Amethyst

We played 6 Rounds, I lost to Zoo and Affinity. I won from (combo)elves (close win), D&T Rock (close win), Vengesurvival(easy win) and Merfolk (easy win).

Against Zoo I kept a too slow a hand (no early blockers) the last game and I didn't draw any Ringleaders to keep up. Against Affinity game one I lost while having him on 1 life because I had Wasted a land of his. Therefore my Warchief and Ringleaders were a turn too late. I got him to 1 life and then I lost. Game 2 I lost because of a play mistake. I bounced one of his Ravagers so he put all counters on his other Ravager. I then matroned another Stingscourger to bounce his other Ravager but he also had a Ornithopter. I should have searched for a Tuktuk Scrapper to kill his Ornithopter. I had enough goblins on the table to chump block for a while to have me buy time find another answer for his 2nd Ravager. And I should have side in the two Pithing Needles

Dislikes:
1. I missed the 4th War Marshal in the main
2. It's impossible to sideboard out more than 2 cards.
3. Pyrokinesis. I really think I'm going to leave these out my sideboard. You basically want to side in 3 preferably 4 but you don't really want to take any goblins out. I am convinced that if I run 4 War Marshals, 4 Gempalm Incinerators and 2 stingscourgers I have more than enough means to fight any aggro deck out there. If I take the 3 Pyrokinesis out of the sideboard and add a Stingscourger then those matchups are settled. This also leaves me with 2 more sideboard spaces.
4. Vexing Shusher. There's always another 2 cards or no cards to side in against decks with counterspells. Maybe they're useful against countertop but I find even that hard to believe.
5. Affinity. Its a tough matchup. This is one of the few matchups I actually wouldn't mind siding in more than 2 cards. Its basically a matter of stalling a bit kill a load of artifacts midgame with shattering spree and then win. If that guy plays again next time I'm sure to have 3 or 4 Shattering Spree available in my sideboard.

Extra thoughts:
I'm inclined to put tune my sideboard against the really bad match-ups like Affinity, Combo, Burn, anything with Progenitus. With a main deck to fight any aggro deck (sans Affinity) there's really no need for sideboard space for those matchups. Since Monored is very consistent there's also hardly any need to have sideboard cards vs control.

With this metagame in mind (and taking combo into account) the sideboard would be something like this:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuk Tuk Scrapper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Anarchy
3 Shattering spree
4 Chalice of the Void

GoboLord

09-13-2010, 06:01 AM

Honestly, for large tournys, the most important thing is not your list but your playing. The people who top8 are the ones who make the least play mistakes, your deck should compliment your play style so as for you to be able to play at the best of your abilities.

Agreed.

The second most important thing is your matchups. Sometimes you just get paired against lands all day. Sometimes its 7 rounds of mono u fish.

On average we are more likely to win against Lands than against Merfolk.

Merfolk: 45% - Goblins: 55%
2-0 XXXXX.XX
2-1 XXXXX.XX
1-1
1-2 XXXXX.XX
0-2 XXXXX.XXXXX.XXX
This means that Merfolks win 45% of the games (including sideboarded games) against Goblins, while Goblins win most of the matches 2-0. I will report the following example in the same fashion only without explanations.

Lands: 40% - Goblins: 60%
2-0 XX
2-1 XX
1-1 XX
1-2 XX
0-2 XXXXX.

(taken from: Sad but true... (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18780-Sad-but-true-Match-up-estimations-gone-wild))

5. Affinity. Its a tough matchup. This is one of the few matchups I actually wouldn't mind siding in more than 2 cards. Its basically a matter of stalling a bit kill a load of artifacts midgame with shattering spree and then win. If that guy plays again next time I'm sure to have 3 or 4 Shattering Spree available in my sideboard.

Extra thoughts:
I'm inclined to put tune my sideboard against the really bad match-ups like Affinity, Combo, Burn, anything with Progenitus. With a main deck to fight any aggro deck (sans Affinity) there's really no need for sideboard space for those matchups. Since Monored is very consistent there's also hardly any need to have sideboard cards vs control.

With this metagame in mind (and taking combo into account) the sideboard would be something like this:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuk Tuk Scrapper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Anarchy
3 Shattering spree
4 Chalice of the Void

I think Affinity (or artifacts in general) may become a big issue with Scars of Mirrodin.
If you want to be prepared for Affinity, I'd advice
Hammer Mage
Pulverize

Nelis

09-13-2010, 06:43 AM

If you want to be prepared for Affinity, I'd advice
Hammer Mage
Pulverize

There are much better options than those like Meltdown or even better Shatterstorm. But I think Shattering spree is the best option. It's also good vs control decks that run Shackles or merfolk because its hard to counter multiple replicate spells.

JonBarber

09-13-2010, 07:36 AM

(taken from: Sad but true... (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18780-Sad-but-true-Match-up-estimations-gone-wild)

I said mono blue for a reason though, those statistics don't specify one or the other. I've yet to lose a game to mono blue fish (theres a reason they're playing engineered plague). But regardless, my point holds true. Sometimes you face good matchups all day, sometimes you face bad matchups. You just have to make the best of it.

ScatmanX

09-13-2010, 07:40 AM

This is the sideboard I eventually used:
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Thorn of Amethyst

We played 6 Rounds, I lost to Zoo and Affinity. I won from (combo)elves (close win), D&T Rock (close win), Vengesurvival(easy win) and Merfolk (easy win).

Against Zoo I kept a too slow a hand (no early blockers) the last game and I didn't draw any Ringleaders to keep up. Against Affinity game one I lost while having him on 1 life because I had Wasted a land of his. Therefore my Warchief and Ringleaders were a turn too late. I got him to 1 life and then I lost. Game 2 I lost because of a play mistake. I bounced one of his Ravagers so he put all counters on his other Ravager. I then matroned another Stingscourger to bounce his other Ravager but he also had a Ornithopter. I should have searched for a Tuktuk Scrapper to kill his Ornithopter. I had enough goblins on the table to chump block for a while to have me buy time find another answer for his 2nd Ravager. And I should have side in the two Pithing Needles

Dislikes:
1. I missed the 4th War Marshal in the main
2. It's impossible to sideboard out more than 2 cards.
3. Pyrokinesis. I really think I'm going to leave these out my sideboard. You basically want to side in 3 preferably 4 but you don't really want to take any goblins out. I am convinced that if I run 4 War Marshals, 4 Gempalm Incinerators and 2 stingscourgers I have more than enough means to fight any aggro deck out there. If I take the 3 Pyrokinesis out of the sideboard and add a Stingscourger then those matchups are settled. This also leaves me with 2 more sideboard spaces.
4. Vexing Shusher. There's always another 2 cards or no cards to side in against decks with counterspells. Maybe they're useful against countertop but I find even that hard to believe.
5. Affinity. Its a tough matchup. This is one of the few matchups I actually wouldn't mind siding in more than 2 cards. Its basically a matter of stalling a bit kill a load of artifacts midgame with shattering spree and then win. If that guy plays again next time I'm sure to have 3 or 4 Shattering Spree available in my sideboard.

Extra thoughts:
I'm inclined to put tune my sideboard against the really bad match-ups like Affinity, Combo, Burn, anything with Progenitus. With a main deck to fight any aggro deck (sans Affinity) there's really no need for sideboard space for those matchups. Since Monored is very consistent there's also hardly any need to have sideboard cards vs control.

With this metagame in mind (and taking combo into account) the sideboard would be something like this:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuk Tuk Scrapper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Anarchy
3 Shattering spree
4 Chalice of the Void

May I see your MD again?
-If you run 4 Warmarchal, and 2 Sting SB, you could just add 1 or 2 Bolt SB to completly wreck other agroo decks.
- Shusher is awesome against CB, but completly not needed. We should win anyway.
- If you want something against both Affinity and combo, run Null Rod. It hoses combo, destroys Affinity completly, and is awesome against decks with Equipaments. I'd run them in place of Spree in your new SB.
- I don't think there's anything that can turn Burn into a positive MU.

Nelis

09-13-2010, 09:22 AM

May I see your MD again?
-If you run 4 Warmarchal, and 2 Sting SB, you could just add 1 or 2 Bolt SB to completly wreck other agroo decks.
- Shusher is awesome against CB, but completly not needed. We should win anyway.
- If you want something against both Affinity and combo, run Null Rod. It hoses combo, destroys Affinity completly, and is awesome against decks with Equipaments. I'd run them in place of Spree in your new SB.
- I don't think there's anything that can turn Burn into a positive MU.

I like Null Rod but I don't own them (yet). Nice one! Also good in shutting down other problem artifacts like Top and Shackles.
Running Chalice is half the work against burn and we could complement it with Thorn of Amethyst.

This is what I played yesterday:

//Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
17 Mountain

If I pick the deck up again I will change: -1 Goblin Chieftain +1 Mogg War Marshal

GoboLord

09-13-2010, 10:02 AM

WHy don't you cut lands? I think you should do well with 23

ScatmanX

09-13-2010, 01:23 PM

I like Null Rod but I don't own them (yet). Nice one! Also good in shutting down other problem artifacts like Top and Shackles.
Running Chalice is half the work against burn and we could complement it with Thorn of Amethystl

Be ware that Null Rod shuts down Vial, so I would not board them in against stuff like CB/Top...

So, I'm thinking you're moving towards something like:
4 Chalice
3 Thorn
3 Null Rod
3-4 Grave-Hate
1-2 Flex (Tuk-Tuk / Shooter)

If you have a positive MU against Zoo, Folk, CB and Goblins already, this could be very good.
Great against Combo, Burn, Affinity... Thorn for Enchantress... Just have to be sure the Grave-Hate solve the new Vengevival problem...

Also: 25 lands really? Doesn't 24 cut it already, if you don't like missing land drops?

Nelis

09-13-2010, 05:57 PM

I forgot about my own Vials. Thats definitely a reason for me NOT to run Null Rod at all.

If Vengevival is a serious problem them maybe playing B/R is a better option because extirpate kills them. But to be honest it seems to me that Vengevival is just being hyped at the moment and will lose ground eventually when people realize its a one trick pony thats easily to disrupt. I guess time will tell if If m right about that.

In mono red I guess Faerie Macabre is the best option to fight Vengevival. As a strategy we can always chump block the Vengevines with War Marshals and at the same time put pressure on with our other goblins. Wonder could present a problem but with Wasteland and graveyard removal we should be able to keep that in check too.

Oops, thats supposed to be 23 lands of which 15 mountains. I wouldn't mind adding a 24th land but there's so many goblins I like to run that I chose to go for 23 lands.

Gun4Hire

09-13-2010, 09:30 PM

This is going back a month or so but in regards to the Goblin deck Steve Sadin used in Columbus could any of you explain some of his card choices given to him by Jim Davis?

1) Whats with the singleton Skirk Prospector? Is it there just to combo with Sharpshooter/MWM, and/or to help get a warchief out a turn earlier, or are there multiple other reasons?

2)Also about the other singletons too. Is sharpshooter worth having main deck? Also why just a single chieftain?

3)Because the singletons to me seem like more like random ideas instead of a part of a thought out game plan. Were these choices for specific decks popular in the meta and which ones or were they for a unknown meta so he just wanted to cover every possible thing?

ScatmanX

09-13-2010, 09:58 PM

@Gun4Hire: The singletons, Imo, were there because we cannot run more than 4 off a kind.
The Chieftain should not be seen only as a tutor target, but as a 5th haste enabler.
The Prospector as the 9th one drop, that also combos with Shooter/MWM, and hoses Dredge. I don't think that sacking it to get a turn 2 Warchief is a good idea, since you'll pretty often get 2 for 1d...
Sharpshoooter, in his deck, was worth maindeck. But that was a play-style choice. It could have been a 2nd Chieftain, since it is good with MWM also, or a Lightning Crafter, since it is good against agroo too. But Shooter hoses Counter Thopter, so maybe thats why it got in.
The Tin-Street is more obvious I guess...
(Now, I don't know if he really thinks that. This is just me saying...)

largebrandon

09-13-2010, 10:00 PM

He said that the Prospector was just the 9th 1 drop. It really helps getting a turn 2 warchief out.

Gun4Hire

09-13-2010, 10:07 PM

Ok that makes some good sense. Thanks.

Also what every happened to mogg fanatic why is nobody ever running him any more?

Sorry but its been awhile since I played legacy goblins ;-)

largebrandon

09-13-2010, 10:27 PM

Ok that makes some good sense. Thanks.

Also what every happened to mogg fanatic why is nobody ever running him any more?

Sorry but its been awhile since I played legacy goblins ;-)

M10 rules screwed him over, because there is no longer a stack and he can't 2 for one anymore. Also, there's not much room for him anymore and he really doesn't kill much anymore. His main function was to make things clear for lackey, but there are better ways of doing that now, like splashing black for Weirding or Lightning Bolt.

Gun4Hire

09-13-2010, 10:31 PM

Thats lame! Poor little guy... Also one last question what are the hardest match ups for goblins right now? And what options to sideboard against them?

GoboLord

09-14-2010, 04:02 AM

M10 rules screwed him over, because there is no longer a stack and he can't 2 for one anymore.

There still is a stack, it's just that combat damage doesn't use it anymore. Combat damage in Damage Step is now like drawing a card in Draw Step.

Thats lame! Poor little guy... Also one last question what are the hardest match ups for goblins right now? And what options to sideboard against them?

Tough MUs of Goblins are:

Enchantress
Charbelcher Combo
Staxx
Mono Black Aggro (aka. The Gate)
GW Survival
Zoo

I don't know your meta, but I personally wouldn't prepare for Enchantress, Belcher and Staxx cause they simply are too rare.
In genreal it's a good idea to put cards in SB that have multiple applications - especially important when you don't know the meta. Here is what most people find useful:

Pithing Needle
Red Elemental Blast
Pyrokinesis
Perish / Nature's Ruin
Krosan Grip / Nature's Claim
Tormod's Crypt / Faerie Macabre / Leyline of the Void
Chalice of the Void / Mindbreak Trap / Thorn of Amethyst