[DTB] Vial Goblins [Archive] - Page 22

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Gun4Hire

09-15-2010, 01:42 AM

I read an article about the banning of Mystical Tutor before the Columbus Grand Prix and because of that the legacy scene was predicted to turn to a more aggro and Aggro control type of meta. Like Goblins, Zoo, Aggro-Loam, Merfolk, Enchantress, 43 Lands, and Dredge. I know the M10 rulings kinda nuetered Fanatic but I think Mogg Fanatic might be needed back in the main. Let me explain my reasoning....

VS GOBLINS
Against the mirror what options do you have against your opponents first turn Goblin Lackey besisdes your own Goblin Lackey and then he might just gempalm/sting it anyway on his second turn, attack and drop a SGC or whatever else he wants?

Mogg Fanatic is a great turn 1 answer to a opponents Lackey

VS ZOO
Alot of people believe Mogg Fanatic is useless here but for example you go first drop a Lackey. If your lucky and they dont have a removal spell and have to drop a steppe linx, Lavamancer, or a duel land with a kird ape, nactal. A Fanatic will kill a Lavamancer or Linx so you can get Lackey through and also if you have a wasteland 2nd turn and pop thier duel land to unpower the kird ape or nactl. You still have one mountain to cast a Fanatic to kill thier weakened creature and get Lackey through.

VS MERFOLK
Fanatic will help kill thier first turn cursecatcher.

VS DREDGE
Fanatic kills alot of thier 1 toughness creatures like Ichorid, narcomoeba, golgari thug, and putrid imp. Also a Fanatic on the table can get rid of bridge from below when the moment arises.

VS OTHER DECKS
Fanatic kills Confidant, Argo Enchantress, noble hierarch, birds of paradise, llanowar elves.

My point is that while Fanatic was never awesome or game breaking it did have and does have its uses. He helps lower the natural mana curve of the deck. He still can attack for one, ping for one, and then combo with sharpshooter. Not to many decks have a many turn 1 creature drop against Lackey that can survive a Fanatic ping. If they have a 1st turn removal spell for Lackey theres nothing you can really do about that anyway. And while I'll even admit in the late game i usually get dissapointed seeing him in a ringleader flip and i never think to matron for him but its more in the early game he can help out alot to get Lackey through sometimes or kill opponents 1cc creature drops and Lackeys. Lackeys worse enemy was nimble mongoose and what decks even run him anymore?

A quote from Chris Coppola "The only card on here that could leave the core of the deck (by being run at less than the standard number, which is 4 in this case) is Mogg Fanatic, which I am unsatisfied with, but I think it is essential in order to maintain a strong game against other Aggro decks."

So thats why I think Fanatic should be put back in the main.

So please give me your opinions and objections to this matter. Thank you.

Dino

09-15-2010, 02:54 AM

Argothian Enchantress has shroud and isn't that big of a part of the meta

GoboLord

09-15-2010, 04:31 AM

VS GOBLINS
Against the mirror what options do you have against your opponents first turn Goblin Lackey besisdes your own Goblin Lackey and then he might just gempalm/sting it anyway on his second turn, attack and drop a SGC or whatever else he wants?

Lightning Bolt is a great turn 1 answer to a opponents Lackey

VS ZOO
Alot of people believe Lightning Bolt is useless here but for example you go first drop a Lackey. If your lucky and they dont have a removal spell and have to drop a steppe linx, Lavamancer, or a duel land with a kird ape, nactal. A Fanatic will kill a Lavamancer or Linx so you can get Lackey through and also if you have a wasteland 2nd turn and pop thier duel land to unpower the kird ape or nactl. You still have one mountain to cast a Lightning Boltto kill thier weakened creature and get Lackey through. (With Bolt you don't even have to weken them before)

VS MERFOLK
Lightning Boltwill help kill thier first turn cursecatcher. (plus, it kills virtually any Lord at any time)

VS DREDGE
Lightning Boltkills alot of thier 1 toughness creatures like Ichorid, narcomoeba, golgari thug, and putrid imp. Also a Lightning Bolt on the hand can get rid of bridge from below when the moment arises (by burning your own creatures).

VS OTHER DECKS
Lightning Boltkills Confidant, noble hierarch, birds of paradise, llanowar elves. (...Vampire Nighthawk, Serra Avenger, Qasali Pridemage, Trygon Predator...)

Take every situation you described and imagine you have Lightning Bolt instead of Mogg Fanatic.
Lightning Bolt is way better in those situation you described + it has more flexible applications-
On the topic of deytroying bridge from below: We already tend to run Mog War Marshal and Stingscourger, they do just fine in blasting up Bridges.

ScatmanX

09-15-2010, 07:45 AM

100% with Gobbolord here.

Question: Does Steve Sadin wrote a report about Columbus? If so, does anyone know where it is?

I've been playing a version almost exactly like his, changing 3 cards and the manabase/sb. It seems really damn good. I test some more today, and share it, if it's the case.

Nidd

09-15-2010, 08:45 AM

You guys playing Bolt really makes me wonder if Tarfire wouldn't be better.

The difference is 1 damage and that it pumps Goyfs, but it isn't as bad as a Lightning Bolt when flipped by Ringleader.
The creatures it doesn't kill aren't that many, but some of these things might make the difference: Lords (2 or more), Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Rafiq, Serra Avenger...

That's it from my brainstorming, not to mention that Kird Ape and Loam Lion are only played by 1 deck (that also runs nacatls) and they only run 1 of both (or, more precisely, maximum the full playset). Serra Avenger and Rafiq are both corner-cases.

Nelis

09-15-2010, 09:35 AM

Nidd

09-15-2010, 10:08 AM

No because Tarfire doesn't kill Nacatls, Apes and Loam Lion's or even Goyfs and thus it has no real benefits other than being able to tutor for it. But what use is that if you cannot kill the problematic creatures with it? It doesn't add anything to the problematic matchups and is of no use either in non-problematic matchups.
To be honest, when does Lightning Bolt kill a Goyf? land and creature isn't hard to come by, so he's 2/3 - if you aim your Bolt at him, he survives. Sure, you can use Bolt in conjunction with your creatures, but is that worth the tradeoff of Lightning Bolt reducing your Goblin count?

Hashinator89

09-15-2010, 10:54 AM

So I've been playing a list with 4 MD Stingscourger and absolutely love it:

3 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Warren Instigator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 AEther Vial
1 Warren Wierding

3 Krosan Grip
3 Perish
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warren Wierding

I went 4-2 two weeks ago, beating Merfolk, Rb Mirror, Bant Countertop and Enchantress, and only losing to Zoo and Dredge. I thought having Wort would be nice to recur Stingscourger, but with 8 pieces of removal, I feel like Siege-Gang number 3 is better. Having Vial at 2 that can actually do stuff has been great, but I'm still not beating Zoo. Is MWM + Gempalm + Perish still the best way too go?

With the lack of Reanimator and the presence of Survival Madness, I'd probably cut stuff for 3 Extirpate, possibly Wierdings. With Storm not even being 10% of the last 2 SCG Open's, I feel like I'd cut storm hate. In fact, I would definitely run Mindbreak Trap of Thorn anyday, expecially since so much of Storm is Belcher anymore.

Talanos

09-15-2010, 11:01 AM

To be honest, when does Lightning Bolt kill a Goyf? land and creature isn't hard to come by, so he's 2/3 - if you aim your Bolt at him, he survives. Sure, you can use Bolt in conjunction with your creatures, but is that worth the tradeoff of Lightning Bolt reducing your Goblin count?

The thing with bolt is, you generally want it in the first few turns, to zap those crucial zoo beats or a lackey or ritual nighthawk/hypnotic or whatever. In those cases, you really don't care that ringleader doesn't flip it or matron doesn't find it, because you're just planning to open with it anyway. When you're getting off ringleaders, you're usually less concerned about spot removal. Overall, including it shores up the early game against opposing aggro decks in exchange for reducing your consistency in the late game. However, goblins has such a good late game compared to other agro decks anyway that if you get to that point, one less card off your ringleader usually won't break you.

Re: goyf, it usually doesn't kill gofy alone, but it + lackey, matron, driver or marshal token might, which is better than losing a chief or ringleader alongside the tarfire. I think it's mostly nacatl, lion, and ape against zoo though that you're using it on. Goyf and knight get stung or wierded, and lavamancer and lynx get the incinerator treatment. In an ideal world, of course. But having the options makes it more likely than not having them at all, or having to 2-1 to kill most of their guys.

GoboLord

09-15-2010, 11:07 AM

ScatmanX

09-15-2010, 11:20 AM

Nelis

09-15-2010, 01:21 PM

Also, I have killed lots Goyfs with Bolts. It does happen often in the beginning of the game.

Yeah I agree in the 1st 2 turns its usually lands and instants in the graveyard. So the extra Lightning Bolt doesnt matter.

@Nidd: But to clarify my statement I wasn't advocating Lightning Bolt I just wanted to point out that Tarfire is not good enough.

Izor

09-16-2010, 11:37 AM

Caspid

09-16-2010, 12:02 PM

Hey,
Here's my Rb list that I've been tinkering around with. Mine's a pretty aggro-heavy combo-light meta, so I run 4 WW's and Gempalms (considering going down to 3 to put Stingscourger MD..) Sideboard's new and untested, still working on it.

Feedback greatly appreciated!

Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Warren Instigator
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Warren Weirding

Land
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Stingscourger
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Earwig Squad
4 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

* Considering running more Instigators.
* -1 Gempalm for +1 Stingscourger?
* How is Thoughtseize sb?
* In what matchups would Mogg War Marshal be more useful than something else I'm running maindeck? I like his synergy with Gempalm, but his utility alone seems a little limited.

GoboLord

09-16-2010, 12:48 PM

ThomasDowd

09-16-2010, 02:21 PM

maybe ways to beat vengevine/ u/g madness/ survival?

that deck is getting really popular.

Humphrey

09-16-2010, 03:37 PM

maybe ways to beat vengevine/ u/g madness/ survival?

that deck is getting really popular.

All sorts of Gy hate, Pithing Needle

Talanos

09-16-2010, 07:00 PM

Guys, this thread has become kinda boring recently.
We are only commenting tons of decklists over and over again.

No! We need another 20 pages questioning the number of stingers, chieftans, incinerators, war marshalls, and instigators. And another 20 pages asking if mono red is better than wierding splash. And then another 20 pages on if green splash works.

Despite the fact that all these variations have won, there *must* be a universally correct answer! Only through endless back and forth regurgitation of the same points can we arrive at this vaunted goal.

Justin

09-16-2010, 08:40 PM

Guys, this thread has become kinda boring recently.
We are only commenting tons of decklists over and over again.
Does anyone have a suggestion what "hot topic" we can discuss next? I really enjoyed the discussions about combo- and graveyard hat a while ago and I want to go deep in some other - new - topic now.
btw. Haven't read much from FoulQ last time, does anybody know why?

btw.: Solid list, Caspid. I'd only think about cutting rishadan Port, cause you got a rather high number of creatures with RR and RB manacosts - that might be a problem.

I agree. There's only so much good that can come from debating specific cards. I've seen lists with and without Instigators, War Marshalls, Chieftains, Stingscourgers, Weirdings, etc. top eight. There is no perfect deck.

At this point, I'm mostly concerned about learning how to play the deck better. One issue on which I've seen little discussion is mulliganing decisions. Let's say that you are on the play with Mono-red against an unknown opponent and your starting hand is MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, PILEDRIVER, WARCHIEF, MATRON, SIEGE-GANG. For the longest time, I would have kept this hand without thinking about it. "I've got plenty of lands and goblins, so I'm good." Then, I heard a goblin player say that it is best to mull starting hands that don't allow you to cast a turn one Vial or Lackey. Under that philsophy, you should muck the above hand because it is too slow. Going down a card might be the right move, because goblin decks generally need an explosive start to be competitive. The argument is that mulling aggresively is the key to having more success with goblins. I'd like to know what other peoples thoughts are on this issue.

FoulQ

09-16-2010, 09:18 PM

@ Justin: I would definitely mulligan that hand. They most likely will have removal for your t3 warchief and then you'll be left with a piledriver, a matron that will set you back a turn, and of course SGC and some other things by then.

MOST hands need lackey/vial. However fairly aggressive instigator hands are fine too, if you play him. This would include hands that are aggressive but have a ringleader/SGC as a backup plan for the assumed instigator death. Add a tricky weirding or gempalm and maybe he will connect.

There are some other hands that don't need any of the three. It's matchup dependent though, hands where you have a matron/ringleader overload and plan on that as your victory route anyways, and further mulliganing is more dangerous (especially if you splash or play 4port/4waste and are playing against mana denial + control deck like a rock shell or something).

@ GoboLord: I started up school again which takes up a lot of time. I also haven't been playing magic as much because I am a very poor college student and need the money to spend on liquor and women and some other habits, unfortunately, $15 for a large tournament or a 1.75. Plus I've become very disillusioned with other formats so I have left the game. I don't have the same base of knowledge as I used to because I haven't been playing competitively so I try to keep my posts on the things I really feel qualified to post on.

TossUsToLions

09-16-2010, 09:18 PM

I agree. There's only so much good that can come from debating specific cards. I've seen lists with and without Instigators, War Marshalls, Chieftains, Stingscourgers, Weirdings, etc. top eight. There is no perfect deck.

At this point, I'm mostly concerned about learning how to play the deck better. One issue on which I've seen little discussion is mulliganing decisions. Let's say that you are on the play with Mono-red against an unknown opponent and your starting hand is MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, PILEDRIVER, WARCHIEF, MATRON, SIEGE-GANG. For the longest time, I would have kept this hand without thinking about it. "I've got plenty of lands and goblins, so I'm good." Then, I heard a goblin player say that it is best to mull starting hands that don't allow you to cast a turn one Vial or Lackey. Under that philsophy, you should muck the above hand because it is too slow. Going down a card might be the right move, because goblin decks generally need an explosive start to be competitive. The argument is that mulling aggresively is the key to having more success with goblins. I'd like to know what other peoples thoughts are on this issue.

Yes! This is exactly the discussion that i was going to suggest we talk about.

Anyways, I usually do mull a hand that does not have a first turn drop unless i am on the play and i have Mogg War Marshall and plenty of three drops in my hand. MWM can stall for a few turns early game, allowing you to have time to drop your Warchiefs and Matrons

Caspid

09-16-2010, 09:29 PM

Say I'm new and missed the first 131 pages of in-depth single card discussion. Where can I find a summary of the pros/cons to certain choices? Something like a primer that goes over matchups, sideboard, etc?

Along with everything else, I'm still learning how to mulligan. So far, a few questions I ask when deciding when to keep a hand (along with usually making sure I have a Vial and/or Lackey):
* Do I have a good balance of threats and answers?
* If they remove Lackey or counter Vial, do I have a T2 play?
* Can I get rid of a blocker or early beats?
* Can I play control if I need to?

dar482

09-16-2010, 11:41 PM

That's a 100% mull hand. Unless you're playing against no-one, that deck is dead against even good matchups. While you don't ALWAYS mull non-Lackey/Vial hands, it's a good rule to go by for a beginner. Depends on the rest of the hand, play/draw, matchup you might be against, etc.

As for those questions, it's hard to figure out. Goblins is one of the harder creature based decks to play in Legacy because of the many roles in a many you can take. You can race, you can play a trading game and gain advantage through Ringleader, the lines of play/mana use are important, Goblin Matron makes it hard.

GoboLord

09-17-2010, 02:35 AM

@ GoboLord: I started up school again which takes up a lot of time. I also haven't been playing magic as much because I am a very poor college student and need the money to spend on liquor and women and some other habits, unfortunately, $15 for a large tournament or a 1.75. Plus I've become very disillusioned with other formats so I have left the game. I don't have the same base of knowledge as I used to because I haven't been playing competitively so I try to keep my posts on the things I really feel qualified to post on.

Understand.
Then just leave the women at home - that probably consumes most of your money. :tongue:
Anyways, good to know that at least you are with us - though silently.

@ Justin:
My philosophy used to be the same: Mull 'till you got 1st-turn-Vial or Lackey. That's actually a good idea because your chances to draw either one are:
98% with without mulligan
84% with mull 6
69% with mull 5
55% with mull 4
Still I changed my mind on this issue. Now I consider hands with double Piledriver as rather keepable too. So are hand with lots of mana-denial if you are up against slow decks like Landstill. It's much like what FoulQ said.
For those reasons I'd mull the hand you just described.
Mulligan decisions is a topic I consider "hot", thanks for that suggestion. Let's go guys. There must be some more oppinions. Maybe someone has some sort of rules that he could share with us? :-D

@ Caspid:
Yeh that's what I thought about, too: a primer. Lately I worte one for a German forum, but I won't just translate and copy it into this forum because it's not very useful if only one person gives his oppinion o rather different topics.

What do you guys think of really writing a primer (more like a summary of recent discussions, as Caspid suggested) but dividing the work among some readers of this thread that feel like they could do it? I mean Nelis, ScatmanX and me are very active readers (and writers) in this thread. Plus I'd like to hear markbris' and FoulQ's oppinion on some topics as well.
I thought of splitting up this primer up into the following topics:

1. Lands: How many? Which ones? What Mana-Denial? When? Why?
2. There are 10-12 Slots MD that vary whereas Vial/Lackey/Piledriver/Matron/Warchief/Ringleader/SGC seem to be set. Someone should discuss how to fill those 10-12 remaining slots
3. Colors: What splashes are the best for what stuations/metas? Are they needed? Alternatives in other colors?
4. Graveyard hate: against what decks? What cards do best? how many slots should we spare on that?
5. Combo hate: against what decks? What cards do best? how many slots should we spare on that?
6. How to fill other open slots in SB: against what decks? What cards do best? how many slots should we spare on that?
7. Mulligan decisions

Maybe there are some other topics you'd like to discuss, just let me know. I'd also like to hear your oppinion on that.

Hashinator89

09-17-2010, 11:45 AM

Looks like a pretty solid list, I like the idea of running 4 Stingscourgers, although it seems that it didn't really help in the Dredge and Zoo matchup.
As for those matchups: Zoo will remain a tough opponent. Zoo is that one Aggro deck, that wins against all other aggro decks and the best cards against it will hit you too. Perish might be an option.
Against Dredge you can't expect to win anything without dedicated Graveyard hate in the sideboard. Relying on MWM and Stingscourger to remove their Bridges won't help a lot.

Thanks for the help. I'm probably going to playtest this list some over the next two days before the Baltimore Open to see what happens:

2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger

4 AEther Vial

3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Perish
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 ?

Nelis

09-17-2010, 11:59 AM

I know something nice to discuss. How about splashing white so we can run Enlightened Tutor in our sideboard and thus have proper means to fight combo. Thoughts?

GoboLord

09-17-2010, 12:45 PM

I know something nice to discuss. How about splashing white so we can run Enlightened Tutor in our sideboard and thus have proper means to fight combo. Thoughts?

If you put Enlitghened Tutor + Combo hate in board i'd rather und Combo Hate + Combo hate. See, the slots you spare on Tutor can be filled with just more combo hate. I don't think we have that many resonable targets for Tutor. Let me know if you think otherwise. Maybe you could build a Sideboard with ETutor and share it?

ScatmanX

09-17-2010, 12:53 PM

What do you guys think of really writing a primer (more like a summary of recent discussions, as Caspid suggested) but dividing the work among some readers of this thread that feel like they could do it? I mean Nelis, ScatmanX and me are very active readers (and writers) in this thread. Plus I'd like to hear markbris' and FoulQ's oppinion on some topics as well.

FolQ did wrote a primer of this deck a while back (last year I think), but it never got posted in the OP. I really don't know why, since it was a very good piece of work.
Now, with bannings, new decks and other things, it may be a little outdated, but is certainly way better than the one we currently have.
Maybe we could start from his, if he is willing to share, or allow me to do so, and continue.

@Nelis: I have actually thought about that, but never really put it together to test. A tutor SB (with StP maindeck) would be something like:
3-4 E. Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Then if you want to have hate against specific decks, you could have:
1 Warmth (Burn)
1-2 Shared Triumph (Plague)
1 Aura of Silence (Enchantress and combo)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon or Relic of Progenitus (Dredge and Loam maybe...)
1 Ghostly Prison (Merfolk or Goblins)
anything you need actually...
Also, you have more disenchant effects....

FoulQ

09-17-2010, 02:10 PM

@ ScatmanX: I don't mind it being shared at all, I'm all about trying to improve the thread, a good primer goes a long way in keeping the discussion on track. Anyone who has it can put it anywhere they want I don't mind.

I am also confused by why I was ignored by the administration. Originally I was asked to do it and did it promptly and emailed it to an admin. I tried to stay in contact but they just ignored me after that. Funny, they even asked somebody to write a primer IN this thread. The only logical conclusions is that my primer was either too long or the admins too busy with their real, 30-something lives. But let's face it, unless you are an exceptional player (and I would classify myself as good but not exceptional, but know how to make my points effectively in writing) or an east coast resident, your opinions will be less represented.

It is outdated, and for experienced goblins players you probably won't find that much info. But somebody looking to understand goblins (especially people playing other decks who want to test against us properly), it would be a good tool.

ScatmanX

09-17-2010, 02:29 PM

It is outdated, and for experienced goblins players you probably won't find that much info. But somebody looking to understand goblins (especially people playing other decks who want to test against us properly), it would be a good tool.

But thats exactly what a Primer needs to do.
I'll see if I manage to have a look at it next week then, and maybe send to an Admin or something.
If anyone is interested in reading it, pm me then.

ScatmanX

09-17-2010, 03:50 PM

Double post, but a completely different topic:
Have you guys seen:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/td/jhds546dfuyighojmgs.jpg
?

I had, but just started thinking about it today, when a friend told me what he thought about it.
Then it hit me.

I think this card may be completely bonkers in goblins. (monoR, 2, or even 3c).
It is an Artifact, that kills creatures, artifacts, planeswalkers, and freaking ENCHANTMENTS!!!
Yes! An artifact, at 2cc, that can destroy freaking Engineered Plague, Moat, Humility, Propaganda... While also killing Tarmogoyfs, Jittes, CHILL, counterbalance, tokens...

We can even cast it turn 2, up 1 or 2 charges, and leave it there, waiting to bait something when possible.
I'll start testing this ASAP.

(hint: with 16 counters, it kills Emrakul!!!)

GGoober

09-17-2010, 04:09 PM

Double post, but a completely different topic:

(hint: with 16 counters, it kills Emrakul!!!)

That is the reason I would play this card :)

Lol, play ensnaring bridge ramp it to 16 and pwn!

Ka0z

09-17-2010, 07:24 PM

GoboLord

09-17-2010, 09:00 PM

As Scatman said: it's considerable in Mono R, and only in Mono R. In Rb and Rg you have access to other cards that are more effective cause they are simply faster and more surprising. One big disadvantage is that your opponent has at least 3 turns to prepare for the detonation, therefore he can either remove it or easily gather cards that prepar him. In Zoo it just gets hit by Qasali Pridemage.
Advantage: it only needs 15 (not 16) counters to kill emrakul - with this revealing information it may be playable...not

Humphrey

09-18-2010, 03:01 AM

Powder Keg isnt played for the same reasons, its to slow. I dont want to wait 4 turns to blow Moat or Walker or whatever high cost.
Against Zoo id rather drop a MWM

heroicraptor

09-18-2010, 03:05 AM

I don't know, if it's really so powerful. Ok, it hits each nonland permanent, but it seems slow because of the tap ability. Hmm, on the other side, you cast it on turn 2, tap für 1 counter and on the next turn blow Nacatls, Grim Lavamancers whatever.
I think it needs good testing. Any other comments?

And Lackeys and Vials.

Nelis

09-18-2010, 03:47 AM

@Nelis: I have actually thought about that, but never really put it together to test. A tutor SB (with StP maindeck) would be something like:
3-4 E. Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Then if you want to have hate against specific decks, you could have:
1 Warmth (Burn)
1-2 Shared Triumph (Plague)
1 Aura of Silence (Enchantress and combo)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon or Relic of Progenitus (Dredge and Loam maybe...)
1 Ghostly Prison (Merfolk or Goblins)
anything you need actually...
Also, you have more disenchant effects....

I'm more into standard lately so I haven't been paying much attention to Legacy recently but I have also incorporated Enlightened Tutor Toolbox in my Legacy Zoo deck and I feel its the way to go for aggro to fight combo (haven't put much testing in it though). The biggest danger of using ET is the temptation to side it in every match-up where it might have its uses. I think its important to only use the package against the real tough match-ups like Dredge and Storm Combo. It might be attractive to use Ghostly Prison vs Merfolk or Zoo but I'm hesitant to use it that way.

I was thinking splashing a single Plateau so using Wheel of Sun And Moon isn't an option then. It might have its place in an RBgw version goblins. Wheel is a very strong piece of hate vs dredge though, especially if they don't expect it. As to Disenchant effects, with just a single white mana source Seal of Cleansing is probably the best option. If we go for multiple white sources then Aura of Silence is a very good choice and then we can use Wheel of Sun And Moon to good use too.

Btw for an example of how the sideboard could look the UWT thread is a good source of information. That deck uses 2 Tutors but also has counter backup. For aggro I think this means at least 3 ET indeed.

Humphrey

09-18-2010, 10:29 AM

http://imgur.com/NbHBd.jpg
Do we have a new 1-Drop. This guy looks solid as a 1- or 2-of. Its a solid PlanB against Moat and other stuff.

Waikiki

09-18-2010, 11:31 AM

imo it seems only really good when your allready winning.

Tacosnape

09-18-2010, 02:14 PM

Re Spikeshot Elder, Why would I play something worse than Mogg Fanatic?

Also, re Ratchet Bomb, It's a decent solution to Plague. It's not a great one, but it's the best one red has. The question is whether or not it's worth playing Ratchet Bomb over nothing and 3-4 more sideboard slots to spend elsewhere.

I'm not convinced Ratchet Bomb really solves any other common problems a good Goblins build might have. It -can- also kill annoying duos like Jitte'd Tarmogoyfs, but other than that and Plague, there isn't really much where it would help.

Don't get me wrong. Ratchet Bomb is an -amazing- card. It's completely better than Powder Keg in every possible way and tons of Black and Red decks can benefit from it being the best colorless enchantment remover ever printed. But I'm not sure Goblins needs it.

Humphrey

09-18-2010, 02:27 PM

Why is Elder worse than Fanatic, you diont need to sacrifice it, just shoot around.

kinda

09-18-2010, 02:47 PM

It's not awful...but I only see it being played in some mono red builds running 3-4 chieftain and only as a 2-3 of. Ratchet bomb looks very good.

Corax

09-18-2010, 08:40 PM

Powder Keg isnt played for the same reasons, its to slow. I dont want to wait 4 turns to blow Moat or Walker or whatever high cost.
Against Zoo id rather drop a MWM

it's going to be a sideboard card, Powder Keg isn't that big of a deal because it doesn't hit enchantments, so far Ratchet Bomb, Nevinyrral's Disk and Engineered Explosives are the only reasonable colorless ways to destroy enchantments.

Dark Ritual

09-18-2010, 10:07 PM

There's a card called anarchy. Run it over these other cards to deal with enchantments because it blows up moat, humility, solitary confinement, sigil of the empty throne, angel tokens.....I can't think of a reason to run ratchet bomb over anarchy since it does the same thing except slower and it also blows up your 4 drops....its better than powder keg, but not by much.

kinda

09-19-2010, 12:17 AM

i can't think of a reason to run ratchet bomb over anarchy since it does the same thing except slower and it also blows up your 4 drops

lol! Yeah not quite...

Micki

09-19-2010, 01:00 AM

Hello again!

A huge thank you to everyone for all the help and suggestions on/with my deck a few pages back!! I'll put out the decklist I'm going to start testing but more important...

@ Gobolord, ScatmanX, FoulQ and others: A primer like the one Gobolord suggested would be VERY appreciated!!
@ ScatmanX: I'll try to send you a PM (I'm not that used to use this forum for other things than reading) but if my old and tired brain isn't up for that quest then maybe reading this will do the trick, I'd very much like to read the primer that FoulQ has written. If you don't get my PM, please let me know what I need to do :)

Here's the list I'll start testing...

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
1 Lightning Crafter
2 Warren Instigator
1 Goblin Chieftain

The meta is very unknown so my sideboard will obviously change a lot but for starters;

3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Anarchy
1 TukTuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin King

Please feel free to comment!

Nidd

09-19-2010, 06:32 AM

If the Meta is unknown, I'd rather not play Warren Instigator. He's plain bad in some MUs.
You could play 1 MWM and 1 Incinerator in these slots.
Also, aren't the 3 SGC clogging up your hand at times? With 4 MWM, Goblin Chieftain looks even better and playing 6 haste enablers makes the deck that much more threatening in terms of "I'll just explode in your face after you played FSpout/WoG/Stuff".

Avatara

09-19-2010, 12:18 PM

http://imgur.com/NbHBd.jpg
Do we have a new 1-Drop. This guy looks solid as a 1- or 2-of. Its a solid PlanB against Moat and other stuff.

As a one of I would rather play Lightning Crafter. He deals 3 damage for 0 mana instead of 3RRRRRR each turn. If you ask me it's irrelevant that he only costs one mana seeing how you can't use him on the first few turns. Attach Basilisk Collar and you wouldl have a different story of course.

Caspid

09-19-2010, 12:28 PM

Even with Basilisk Collar I'd rather have it on Sharpshooter. Overall I think equipments are very weak in Goblins due to high costs, Goblins' lack of evasion, and dilution of the deck (making Ringleader less effective). Siege-Gang and/or Lightning Crafter are much better answers to Moat.

I've got a coupla questions though:
What is one to do against Humility? Sorry if it's been discussed, I just haven't found a definitive answer besides maybe Anarchy or splashing green for K-Grip.

What do you side in against White Weenie?

FoulQ

09-19-2010, 04:37 PM

Spikeshot Elder is horrible.

Equipment is bad in goblins as Caspid points out. Also, you can't afford the mana sink in the crucial stages in the game where you need to either A) set up your engine or B) get very aggressive.

Humility: port/waste, grip/anarchy, but it's not around that much so. The opponent needs to focus on deconstructing your board state and often won't have time to ETutor up a humility or something of that nature. 2WW is a lot to ask for against goblins, but yes, it's a tough card to beat. Earwig Squad is also great against humility and is usually unexpected. Will also get their moats, planeswalkers or whatever you want.

jrw1985

09-20-2010, 02:08 AM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-09-19&end_date=2010-09-19&event_type=SCLO

Baltimore top 16 was Goblins free! Oh shit! Merfolk and Survival gone wild! 10 of the Top 16!

So, kids, apparently Goblins players don't know how to beat Merfolk and Survival. Get with the times, kiddos. I'm extremely interested to see what the Meta breakdown of the event was. If Goblins were present in any real number then there should not have been so many Merfolk decks around. Goblins should always outdraw Merfolk. We have uncounterable spot removal in Gempalm, we outdraw the Folk with ringleader, and we run 4 Pro Blue Piledrivers. Zoo and Goblins must be falling incredibly out of favor if Merfolk are running this rampant. Survival is a different matter. That deck is very good at stopping our early plays (Forcing Lackey/Vial), but unlike Merfolk they gain card advantage against us very easily, and we don't have maindeck answers. We need to side in either KGrip or GY hate to stop their recursion engine. The thing is, Vengevine should be easy to remove. It can only trigger once per turn, when the 2nd creature is cast. Not the 3rd or 4th or 5th. Only the 2nd, so you should always be able to respond to that trigger! Just saying! Clearly, without recurring Vines the deck doesn't have much steam. Why is it so freaking popular though? And so good! Probably because it wins game 1 against most decks, except probably Merfolk. Hmmmm.

Anywho- My thoughts on playing against Survival.
Game 1 kill the T1 mana creature ASAP. They need the T1 manadude to set up a usable T2 Survival, then a T3 whatever. Play to keep their creatures dying, like you were trying to draw out a Zoo deck. They don't usually pack spot removal so you should be able to double block their stuff effectively.Attack their mana base. More than anything, though, pray you're on the play and are able to play your hand out.

Game 2 I would side in the graveyard removal, Vexing shusher, Sharpshooter. I would not play Perish in this MU just because I would rather just draw GY hate.

And on a side-note--- Earwig Squad = Pretty Good. I played with 1 MD and 2 SB at a tourny Saturday. After losing T1 G1 to ANT I sided em all in. I was able to outlast the Goblin tokens G2, and G3 he made a bunch of tokens, but not enough. When I got through with a Warchief I dropped 2 Squads into play and removed literally EVERY LAST THREAT from his deck. And that was the match. Pretty good. Pretty good.

Amon Amarth

09-20-2010, 04:42 AM

Yeah that was pretty odd, first time in a while actually that there were no Goblin decks in the T16. They might have just played mirrors all day and knocked each other out... heard something like that during the live coverage. IDK. Merfolk is obviously pretty easy to beat but they can be rather aggro sometimes, especially the new 16 lord versions, and most people aren't used to that and don't switch gears to take the control role.

Survival on the other hand is a different beast altogether. There are many different archetypes that fall under the Survival. I wouldn't board in Grip against the Vengevine Madness because it feels pretty slow. I haven't tested against it but I would probably want some number of Needles and Crypts/Relics. Perish seems too slow... not sure about that. Against the Combo version with Emrakul/Iona you are in a much better position to get your engine online and they don't typically run countermagic so it's easier to resolve/vial in Stingscourger or Weirding or just race them.

At this point it seems silly not to run Needle. It seems like the best answer to Survival in all it's forms.

PanderAlexander

09-20-2010, 05:10 AM

Most likely what happened is what others are speculating, the field looked heavy with survival/madness and combo and those may have knocked off most of the decks like goblins, zoo, etc, and Merfolk knocked off survival/madness and combo. Once again that's all speculation and I would be very interested to see the metagame breakdown from SCG once that comes out. The prior SCG 5k was Minneapolis which had no Merfolk in top 8 but survival/madness did make two spots in that one as well.

ScatmanX

09-20-2010, 11:33 AM

So far, Ratchet Bomb has been:
Great against Loam, Merfolk and CB.
Good against Zoo.
Bad against Goblins.
Haven't tested against other decks yet.

bakofried

09-20-2010, 06:47 PM

How did you use it? Who was your playtesting partner? Any particular reason it was good in those MU's? What variant of Goblins did you run?

ScatmanX

09-20-2010, 09:27 PM

How did you use it? Who was your playtesting partner? Any particular reason it was good in those MU's? What variant of Goblins did you run?

I try not to stifle goblins main plan with it. I play myself for goblins and loam, and the rest have partners. My list is 4xwarchief/matron/lackey/vial/ringleader/driver; 3xWW/Gempalm/Ratchet Bomb; 2xSGC; 1xSting;Wort;23 lands

I found it good against Loam, because it got rid of CotV for 1 and Mox Diamond.
Against Folk because almost all their dudes cost 2, and they usually wont drop Standstill with it in play.
Against CB because playing it T2 means I wont be locked if I don't want, or it simply kills a goyf.
Against Zoo it was kind of slow, and I think it should not be brought in. It have made some 2for1s and one 3for1. (have also sacrificed 2 Matrons once, but it did won me the game)
Goblins really don't care about this card. We can change our game plan so easily, it simply does not matter.

dar482

09-21-2010, 04:43 AM

GoboLord

09-21-2010, 06:01 AM

Has anyone tried Mutavaults over Ports in the Mono Red version? If Merfolk can run it, seems like an okay fit for Goblins. Bigger Piledrivers, extra attacker, even taps itself for better Incinerators.

Also, how is Sparksmith in the sideboard against Merfolk and other smaller creature based matchups? Obviously weak in the Zoo or mirror.

Yeah, me. 12-Lord-Goblins (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32938).
I played them in a Rb list without any mana-denial. I dont think they are worth it unless you have that many Lords (which turned out to be bad). Lost only against Dread-Depths that day. I bet Lands, Enchantress, Bant, Goblins, Ubx Random Control and Kithkin Wheenie.

Sparksmith: Any other removal I can imagine is better: Lightning Bolt, Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Lightning Crafter etc.

Humphrey

09-21-2010, 10:02 AM

I try not to stifle goblins main plan with it. I play myself for goblins and loam, and the rest have partners. My list is 4xwarchief/matron/lackey/vial/ringleader/driver; 3xWW/Gempalm/Ratchet Bomb; 2xSGC; 1xSting;Wort;23 lands

I found it good against Loam, because it got rid of CotV for 1 and Mox Diamond.
Against Folk because almost all their dudes cost 2, and they usually wont drop Standstill with it in play.
Against CB because playing it T2 means I wont be locked if I don't want, or it simply kills a goyf.
Against Zoo it was kind of slow, and I think it should not be brought in. It have made some 2for1s and one 3for1. (have also sacrificed 2 Matrons once, but it did won me the game)
Goblins really don't care about this card. We can change our game plan so easily, it simply does not matter.

ok, but where is it better than Pyroblast

GoboLord

09-21-2010, 10:47 AM

Comparing Racthet bomb and Pyroblast ist much like:

"Why is a raven like a writingdesk?"

They don't nearly do the same things. Scatman didn't even say that you'd play Bomb OR Blast.
How is pyroblast good against:

Loam, Zoo and Goblins (cause that's what he said he used Bomb against)

ScatmanX

09-21-2010, 01:02 PM

Guys, I'm just trying the card out. Not saying it will be the best thing happened to us... I just like to test cards/deckslists.

@Pyroblast: my version with Ratchet Bomb run 2-3 Red Elemental Blast too, because, besides being good in Folk and CB, I also like it against Combo and Show and Tell. They don't come near in the regard of fulfilling the same purpose.

Tacosnape

09-21-2010, 07:50 PM

At this point it seems silly not to run Needle. It seems like the best answer to Survival in all it's forms.

Needle is an amazing choice in Goblins' SB right now. I -always- pack it, good idea or not, but right now it's fantastic.

GoboLord

09-22-2010, 05:35 AM

Nidd

09-22-2010, 05:50 AM

Hey guys,

I just read FoulQ's Goblin-primer and it's just great. I think it hits the core of everything that is "Goblin".

The funny thing is: I have written a Goblin Primer for a German forum last week and it is like a 90% translation of FoulQ's primer (10% being different cause the meta changed and I we have different oppinions on like 2-3 cardchoices).
Therefore: I guess we should just post it to this thread. Of course this would be up to FoulQ since it's his work I want to see published here.
If the primer is that good, I'd like to read it, too. Putting it up as a primer for here seems reasonable, considering that the current one is quite outdated.

Also, could you link me to your translation? I'm curious where you posted it.

GoboLord

09-22-2010, 06:04 AM

If the primer is that good, I'd like to read it, too. Putting it up as a primer for here seems reasonable, considering that the current one is quite outdated.

Also, could you link me to your translation? I'm curious where you posted it.

I want to point out that it is no translation of FoulQ's Primer. I wrote this primer last week (and I'm still updating it every day).
I read FoulQ's primer today, so I didn't copy or only translate it. I just noticed that he wrote excalty the same and that he even used nearly the same structure as me. So: I didn't copy FoulQ and he didn't copy me, it's just like "great minds think alike" or something like that.

Here is the link:

German Goblin Primer (http://mtglegacy.de/showthread.php?tid=50)

Nidd

09-22-2010, 06:18 AM

I want to point out that it is no translation of FoulQ's Primer. I wrote this primer last week (and I'm still updating it every day).
I read FoulQ's primer today, so I didn't copy or only translate it. I just noticed that he wrote excalty the same and that he even used nearly the same structure as me. So: I didn't copy FoulQ and he didn't copy me, it's just like "great minds think alike" or something like that.

Here is the link:

German Goblin Primer (http://mtglegacy.de/showthread.php?tid=50)
Alright, now I get it. Quite funny, but not really surprising. I mean, Goblins have a pretty big core which you have to play in order to play a good version.

Nevertheless, good work, I'll read your primer now.
Thanks for the link!

Humphrey

09-22-2010, 08:33 AM

Comparing Racthet bomb and Pyroblast ist much like:

Loam, Zoo and Goblins (cause that's what he said he used Bomb against)

Read again, he said it was useless against said decks and good vs Merfolk, CB and to a lesser degree Loam, but id side GY Hate here.

(nameless one)

09-22-2010, 08:57 AM

Why would this deck worried against Merfolk and CounterTop decks? I am missing something?

FoulQ

09-22-2010, 11:21 AM

Why would this deck worried against Merfolk and CounterTop decks? I am missing something?

Check out the recent results. Merfolk is very popular. They will surely bring hate in against us.

I know many of you feel very confident against Countertop, but I'm of the opinion that it can pull wins out of its ass. Favorable yes, but I never underestimate them. And with its popularity I would like at least a few slots dedicated to one of the top three archetypes in the format.

And like I said you guys can throw my primer around all you want doesn't make a difference to me. It's definitely better than what we have in the opening post although it is a little long if I recall. I'm not the kind of magic player who takes pride in being a voice for the deck and needs to let people know that I play goblins, I just like writing about magic.

arebennian

09-22-2010, 11:42 AM

WARNING: Rambling ahead...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18703-%5BSOM%5D-Spoiler-Discussion&p=490454&viewfull=1#post490454

I was thinking about Infiltration Lens, as perhaps a 2 or 3 of in a list with 4 Lackeys, 4 Instigators and 4 Piledrivers. While often the opponent will just Burn, Exile or Destroy them, often I find my opponent just sits a big green creature (or two) infront of them. They are happy to trade the creature (if blocking piledriver) or kill it (Lackeys).

With the equipment, they are boned either way.

I realise that you can simply destroy them with a wierding, stingscourger or gempalm, but often those forms of removal are, someone, conditional. The equipment is also conditional, as it allows the opponent to decide which action will have the least amount of impact on them (to block or not to block), but it is a 'your screwed' either way. However, I do realise that this is also the problem which plagues 'punisher mechanic' cards.

I think costing 1, and 1 to equip, it doesn't take away a huge amount of tempo and I would like to hear others thoughts...

overpowered

09-22-2010, 01:48 PM

I know many of you feel very confident against Countertop, but I'm of the opinion that it can pull wins out of its ass. Favorable yes, but I never underestimate them. And with its popularity I would like at least a few slots dedicated to one of the top three archetypes in the format.

I completely agree with this statement. I've played against CB that runs firespout main and it is miserable to come back from a sweeper of that caliber with an active CB-Top combo.

@Infiltration Lens: I think costing 1, and 1 to equip, it doesn't take away a huge amount of tempo and I would like to hear others thoughts...

I disagree with this card, as the card is not a threat, but only draws you into threats. It still adds 1 to the CMC of every goblin that you want to equip. It's good with hasted dudes, but generally if they're running green, they're also running white or red and can remove your "new" threats at the drop of a hat anyway.

On the other side of the table, I would simply block and kill a warchief and let you draw two cards. Most games won by goblins are either blow outs or depend on more than 2-3 damage getting through. This might be good in Mono Red but Black splash has little to no use for it in my opinion. Neither does R/w. Feel free to disagree, but I think that with Reds lack of removal that ignores toughness, it is the strongest build (and possibly only) that should run this card.

Micki

09-22-2010, 03:07 PM

I got FoulQ's Primer to and I think it's great and GoboLord, I wish I had had more than two years of german studies in school... :)
Many thanks to ScatmanX for mailing me FoulQ's Primer btw.!!

arebennian

09-22-2010, 03:36 PM

On the other side of the table, I would simply block and kill a warchief and let you draw two cards. Most games won by goblins are either blow outs or depend on more than 2-3 damage getting through. This might be good in Mono Red but Black splash has little to no use for it in my opinion. Neither does R/w. Feel free to disagree, but I think that with Reds lack of removal that ignores toughness, it is the strongest build (and possibly only) that should run this card.

On Warchief, I agree.
But as I noted Goblins can play 12 creatures that are fairly easy to block and kill or trade with, but that you DO NOT want to let through and strike you for damage.
This card puts them in a very awkward position when it is attached to these creatures.

Gun4Hire

09-22-2010, 08:58 PM

VIAL GOBLINS (German to English translation)

1St introduction
Vial Goblins is probably the fastest Tribal-Aggro deck currently in the format. The tactic of the deck is straight to ya face! Goblins reaches this through incredibly explosive starts which puts many Goblins on the table very quickly (most importantly without paying its full mana cost). In the course of its existence, Goblins has had all different color splashes but the main color of the deck has always remained red.
The newest and probably strongest version is -VIAL GOBLINS- compared to the older versions that use Patriarch Bidding or Food Chain for the combo factor in this deck. But based on the strongly different game strategy they are not included in the article.

2Nd reference list

//Lands [22]:
4 Wasteland
0-4 Rishadan Port
14-18 other Lands (corresponding to the Splash colors)

//Core-Cards [26]:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege Gang Commander

//Flexible slots [12]:
4-8 Removal
4-8 Goblins that correspond to the desired strategy

3Rd explanation of the cards

A) Lands:
The average Mana cost of the deck is unusually high for a fast Aggro plan so Vial Goblins needs an unusually high amount of lands at around: 22-23.
Also never forget that this deck is mainly Red so always include enough Red sources so you dont get mana screwed. Mana Denial a very important component of the deck. To this purpose, a full playset of Wasteland is a must have. There are effectively a brake from effective cards against Goblins. Because of the demanding Mana costs of Moat, Humility and Firespout which are all very effective against Goblins, the true value of Mana Denial becomes very clear. Locking your opponent off his colors or al least just slowing him down a few turns can keep him from casting BOMBS against you. Those who demand the most mana denial available can use a playset of Rishadan Ports as well.
The most frequently used Splash colors in Vial Goblins are Black and Green. If one or both colors are going to be used, use 2-4 copies of each of the respective Dual Lands (Badlands and Taiga) as well as 4-8 fetchlands. While some run Mono-Red Goblins with fetchlands for library thinning 4 reasons to not run fetchlands in mono-Red are as follows.
That main 4 reasons :
(1) One makes the deck less susceptible to Stifle and Pithing Needle
(2) One takes less damage
(3) After using Ringleader, a fetchland would shuffle those non-goblin cards on the bottom back into the deck
(4) The thinning effect is not relevant contrary to many opinions and does not outweigh points 1-3.
Those who insist on other color splash fixing ideas, Auntie's Hovel works well in Black splashes.
Non Basics that are not for Mana Denial or Mana Fixing should not be put in this deck. Lands that slow down and weaken either of these two important components are poison for the otherwise solid Aggro plan of the deck.

B) Core Cards:
These are the main Vial Goblin core cards that makes this deck dangerous – these I will introduce now.

AETHER VIAL
Aether Vial is the horror for every blue magician: Uncounterable free Goblins who enter the game at Instant Speed leaving your Lands for Removal or Mana Denial. With Aether Vial, one can exploit perfectly the well-balanced Mana curve of the deck. Aether Vial increases the unusual explosiveness of this deck. The already addressed relatively high average mana cost of the deck becomes, thanks to Aether Vial, a minor matter. This card is an automatic 4-of.

GOBLIN LACKEY
Goblin Lackey is the most popular and probably strongest 1st-Turn-Drop of the deck. Its insane triggered Ability helps the deck to extremly strong and fast starts. This smallgreen fellow is a key card of the deck and if you clear the path for him to connect its usually a very quick and smooth game for you. Unfortunately many decks have hostile first turn answers for this poor little guy in the forms of counters, removal, and blockers. Usually always a 4-of.

GOBLIN PILEDRIVER
Goblin Piledriver is one of three main Win Conditions in this deck. Its strong triggered Ability settles most damage of the deck. Often it functions however only as a Removal for Tarmogoyf and other large creature. In conjunction with Goblin Warchief he only costs 1 R and has haste so dropping more than one of these on a single turn with a couple other goblins has lead to many long faces (very amusingly).That latter fact helped the deck to its explosive reputation. Usually always a 3-4-of
Interesting: It is was thanks to Piledrivers Protection from Blue the blocks optimal for Merfolk decks and other large blue creatures such as Rafiq and Rhox Monk become no concern at all. Rhox Monks "Lifelink" becomes in a manner useless, because from its Protection , no damage so no life gained. Also one should remember that Piledriver is not Protected from Stifle’s effect though.

GOBLIN MATRON
Goblin Matron is assured the worst BMI (Body-Mana-Index) in the deck but great for giving flexible options for many different situations. Usually the ones to find its way into mama’s kitchen will be Goblin Ringleader or a type of removal. To fill Flex slots with 1-ofs to search for when the need arises is also very important to Goblins.
(1) the very most Board position better can be expanded just in the early game through each other creature. Also if it enticing appears to be able to be to count to make already early the sack (in that one itself for example Goblin Piledriver seeks) it often advisably again the Lifes of the opponent around to check whether one needs the desired card unconditionally now . One should consider that one has most cards 4x in the cover and to pull the probability a copy anyway already highly enough is.
(2) The second is more flexible. A matron in the Late Game the best card for Goblins. With it, one can then either fetch Goblin Ringleader to increase your exhausted Resources or fetch a Siege Gang Commander to get around moat or for whatever goblin would be best for the situation. Both of the following Goblins are extremely important after a board sweeper to put the pressure back on.
There and again one naturally early must finish it (or over Goblin Lackey bring in). In this case, I seek myself gladly Removal such as Gempalm Incinerator. One must make clear himself that Removal are most former romped about for the cover, because for usually only creature between Goblins and the victory stand.

GOBLIN WARCHIEF
Haste Goblins are happy Goblins. The "papa" of the deck is Goblin Warchief. In addition to Vial and Lackey, is the reason why expensive cards such as Siege Gang Commander and Goblin Ringleader are generally in this fast Aggro deck. And the notorious 3-Mana-Goblin-Matron-into-Piledriver-Move with Warchief in play ended many a games very early.
Interesting: Nothing. Well…almost nothing. Those who knows the deck already, this is one of the weakest creature body cards in the Late Game and usually just used to trump block.

GOBLIN RINGLEADER
The second Win Condition of the deck is Goblin Ringleader. Contrary to the opinion, a Goblin Ringleader (when used correctly) can never reveal bad cards. It provides (directly or indirectly) Goblins with that late game card advantage . Someone once its like "an Ancestral Recall on two legs". I must contradict that clearly, concern producing there it in this comparison only the card advantage of both cards. Goblin Ringleader is in my opinion the most "skill intensive" card of the entire cover and sensitively should be used therefore (exactly like Matron). Let's go through once together the most important applications:
(1) The Early Game: What in the Early Game does Goblins need? (the answer stand at the beginning of the Primers) Correct – Lands!
What don’t Goblins need in the Early Game? Correct – yet more Goblins in the hand (according to experience one has 4-5 on the start hand anyway).
(2) Mid Game: Say your on turn 5: Your opponent successfully removed you Goblin Lackey and Piledriver and you’re out of steam. Yet see here, a Ringleader waits in your hand! So what do you do now? The Board position distinguishes only through your mediocrity and enough other Goblins on the hand have itself yes we also. What do? That decides on the basis of many things:
Should you prepare to recover from Board Sweepers? Then the Ringleader remains in your hand.
Does your opponent play Counters? Then you must judge the best time to play Ringleader like when your opponent is tapped out or you can Vial ringleader in at EOT.
Can I perform a quick game ending all-out attack? With a warchief in play cast Ringleader and hope to draw a few Piledrivers and other goblins and attack.
Also do you have any fetchlands to crack because any no-goblin cards on the bottom of the deck put there by past Ringleaders will get shuffled back into the deck diluting the Goblin to non-Goblin ratio of each draw.
(3) Late Game: Your opponent cast a board sweeper and put you on a very hostile clock. Our preliminary answer is Goblin Ringleader. Then it reveals 4 Lands. Did Goblin Ringleader disappoint in this situation? Clear answer: No. How would the game have run without it? For the next 4 turns you would have just drawn Lands without Ringleader. So now you know that 4 non-goblin cards are on the bottom of your deck.
Against Zoo decks this card is game winning, but only if you can survive in to the late game where your card advantage engine can be used to turn the game around for you.
SIEGE GANG COMMANDER
The third and "most heavyweight" Win Condition of the deck is Siege Gang Commander. Commanders coming into play and Trigger ability/effect makes Commander both a great defensive and offensive card.
If it is not countered, most clever opponents will remove Commander as soon as he hits the table because of his ability take over the battle field and end the game. His ability is used to either end the game with direct damage as long as you have enough mana and Goblins to sac to deal lethal damage or deal damage to possible blockers to let a couple Piledrivers through for lethal damage. Or even for blocking with Goblins and then sac them. This is a great way to keep opponents from getting counters for their Jitte.
Interesting: There are many synergies with Commander and other Goblins. For example the echo Trigger of Mogg Marshal or Stingscourger you can sac them and get a final use of them before they hit the graveyard. Moreover a combo with Goblin Sharpshooters triggered Ability is a great interaction. One should think also at it that it can be used as a lining for its own Ability ("in itself sacrifice" says the expert). I personally use to the Commander to help get around Umezawa's it Jitte . I would gladly pay 4 mana to prevent my opponent from getting a Jitte counter. I let a Goblin block the creature equipped with Jitte and sacrifice it during the block-Declare-Step. In the Damage Step is therefore no more creature there, so no damage, so no Counter for Jitte.

C) flexible slots:
The previously discussed cards are in every successful Goblin list. I do not name the remaining 10-12 cards therefore "Flex slots" because they vary in every deck (in contrast to the Core Cards) – therefore can one also with security say whether these slots drastically change the success of the deck. These slots help fill in for the individual taste of the player or predicted meta.
Most Goblin decks use 4-8 of the Flex slots for Removal. That comes - like already mentioned – therefore that Goblin Lackey plays a central role in the deck and one wants it to increase its "connection" rate .
Gempalm Incinerator – Uncounterable Removal? With Instant Speed? May I draw another card also? Can I get around "Standstill”? Do matron and Ringleader find it also good because it is a Goblin??? Yes to all the above!!! This is a must have!!
The disadvantage at this card is unfortunately that it is no so-called "hard Removal" – wants to be named: it does not clear each creature off, but rather is unfortunately dependent on the amount Goblins in the game. Ergo: Always the activated Mutavault as well as hostile Goblins count if its Gempalm wants to transform in damage and hand cards; -). GI is represented in almost every list at usually 3-4x, dependent on the amount Tokens that the list can generate.

Stingscourger – its application finds Stingscourger best against single, very large creatures and less against hordes. In the optimal case comes in over Aether vial, bounce a strong creature and block. If it then yet possible should be to cut off the opponent with Mana Denial of a color of the bounced creature. Up-to-date decks should include at least one of these in every deck list because of Phyrexian Dreadnought, Emrakul and Marit.
Warren Weirding – the third tutor cash Removal in the alliance. Creature mainly large also here falling into the prey scheme. One must be sure downsides of this card. One can not directly target when opponent has more than one creature. Further problems of this card: (1) not used if the opponent has a possible Mutavault to activate, for Mutavault + Warren Weirding = 2 Goblins for the opponent. (2) WW is both a Tribal and a Sorcery card so both will enter the graveyards to boost Tarmogoyf. So just one in the graveyard is an auto +2/+2 to the dumb moose. Advantages are natural that WW is a close friend of Warchief, matron and Ringleader.
WW is to be found based on the Mana cost only in Rb lists where it is played usually 1-3.

Lightning Bolt – it lacks Mono R lists at good Removal (so strangely that of the standpoint of a red cover also sound likes). Therefore one looks and again Lightning Bolt in these lists in order to can with meaningfully with Stingscourger and Gempalm gravel. The disadvantages are obvious: not a Goblin, easily to counter, clears only relatively small creature. Advantages are however: Speed, more potential direct damage, reliability. Lightning Bolt is to be recommended above all in aggro heavy Metas.

Lightning Crafter – a potential 1-off is Lightning Crafter. It is only specially usable in certain metas. Above all Control MU, it develops its full strength because it keeps dependably Mishra'S it Factory, Planeswalker and naturally Lifepoints at a certain distance. Only its champion Ability is problematic here: It should not be used if one has only a single Goblin on the playing field, because this is sent into exile in response on the Crafter. Indirectly it offers also a small Buffer against some Removal because it gladly exiles Matron or Ringleader in security. Finally one yet must mention perhaps that it is a 3-Part-Combo combo with Kiki Jiki and Skirk Prospector, but in addition later.

Goblin Sharpshooter – Goblin Sharpshooter has almost already a nostalgic Touch. While usually not able to destroy cats, apes, or Lhurgoyfs. To these times, it’s to protect against popular Main deck choice like Empty the Warrens, Dark Confident and Elfen in general. Meanwhile it’s hardly ever seen in the MD, at most as 1-off in the SB. According to my opinion this should be changed, the amount of the Tokens needing to be removed has been climbing (therefore the value of the Sharpshooters is also rising) again: Thopter Foundry, Bitterblossom, Empty the Warrens, Elfen, hostile Goblins… everything more or few seems to be on the advance. Therefore one should consider to reserve a Removal slot for the sniper with the wood weapon.

Path to exile and Swords to Plowshares – although B and G are the most frequent Splash colors, White splashes are still used for access to either Swords to Plowshares or path to exile in the MD lists. I cannot say much out of experience because I tested it on only 3 tournaments. But this early game removal can gladly help goblins to very early wins.
Mogg War Marshall - MWM is chosen recently (again) very. "earlier" has one 4 copies together with 2-3 SGCs played to raise by the Token Count of the cover (that named itself "Swarm Goblins"). Nowadays it mainly is used to simplify around the MU against zoo and other fast Aggro decks. How I already mentioned almost all games are a battle of resources so a 3-in-1 card is optimal. It synergies well with Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Piledriver and Goblin Sharpshooter – but is usually used for early game blocking so the Goblin pilot can by a few turns to get its engine going. A question that sometimes comes up is whether one should pay its echoes costs. My answer on that is following: if one doesn't have to go on the defensive or your winning already, one should not pay it. But however one should always make a decision from the cards being held in your hand at the time.

Goblin Chieftain – Chieftain is to be found most frequently in Mono R lists, usually 1-3x. Reasons for Chieftain are both Meta contingent (Plague, Pyroclasm) and dependant on the list. Generally the more Warren Instigator and MWM the more Chieftain. In the Mirror Match, the one with more Chieftain’s on the board usually wins. But one should never dcrease the amount of Warchiefs slots for Chieftain, the Mana reduction ability of Warchief far outweighs the +1/+1 of the Chieftain. I am no advocate of too many Cheiftains because (1) the RR requests of the deck become more severe and reduces the mana denial ability of the deck (2) raises the Mana curve and places the decks average mana cost at 3 higher, which will make the deck more susceptible to Engineered explosive.

Warren Instigator – Goblin Lackey 2.0? 2 Lackeys in one? Simply only broken? That everything is not Warren Instigator. One so well the Double Strike also causes, clearly must make itself one that usually only a creature enters the game if it slammed.
That lies that (1) there and again Lackey decreases it the work and (2) it played often first so late connected that one already all relevant things. If one wants to exploit its full strength, one should comply above all with large creature such as SGC and word and play above all much Removal. Here another application tip: the triggered Abilites of WI are reckoned one after another (and that has nothing with Double Strike to do). That is that we can bring a Matron of the hand with the first Trigger into the game (its CIP Trigger becomes reckoned before the second Trigger of the WI reckons) and can come one with its creature sought through the second Trigger in game. That functions by the way also if 2 Lackeys connecten.

Word, Boggart Auntie – very well that been suitable pull could for MUs into the length. Together with a Gempalm Incinerator in the Graveyard, you probably won the game because of the draw, removal every turn, and a couple goblins every turn will help you secure Board position. This Resource advantage should decide permanently the game for us. Also its (for Goblins) a useful large Body with Fear so it’s a damage source to be despised. Just remember Mishra's factory can be an artifact creature and can block the aunt.

Dependwould win gear Commander– lists/strategies that on Goblin Lackey and Warren Instigator, play gladly the third SGC. The tactic is let obvious: early Lackey/Instigator connecten and leave bombs. One should in this Builds sooner on further bombs aka. Word, Boggart Auntie / Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker / Earwig Squad renounce for obvious reasons: The relatively shaky plan should not rise will have the bombs to dead cards until one sufficient Mana around it to hardcasten.

Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker – KJ is made how for Mid- and Late Game player eggs. Its activated Ability synergiert obviously with CIP Triggern of the different Goblins: Matron, Ringleader, SGC, Stingscourger and Mogg was Marshal. One should note here again some things: Based on the Manakosten of RRR, it should not in lists with both Wasteland and Rishadan Port played become because it to come is more difficult here much on RRR and to consider where appropriate another fourth R to be other sayings open. My personal estimation is always counts also, that SGC > KJ, there SGC substantially more pressure on the table brings than a KJ. Who it nevertheless play want to have for that I here another application "trick" : The current Wording of KJ purported that the copy Token "at the beginning is sacrificed of the next End Step". One copies therefore after the "beginning of End Step" of the opponent a creature that survives then to the own beginning of End Step. That used will can the advantage the KJ in principle 1x in the round of the opponent and 1x in the own.
How above already mentioned KJ component of a 3-Karten-Combo 3-Karten-Combo card 3-Karten-Combo combo with Skirk Prospector and Lightning Crafter is. Explanation: One controls KJ, LC and SP. KJ copies LC. LC Token "championed" KJ. LC Token is stumbled to shoot damage around the opponent 3. LC Token is sacrificed in SP. KJ comes in game, untapped. KJ copies LC…

Skirk Prospector – the third part of the already named combo with LC and KJ is Skirk Prospector. It never finds actually more than a single slot in the MD. It best utilized around MWM and goblin sharpshooter. Moreover synergies with Goblin Sharpshooter and SGC. Originally it was played as an option to rob around Dredge of its Bridge from Belows. That is to be sure no longer compelling necessary because one can give MWM this job and have more flexible application possibilities.

Tin street Hooligan – TSH finds in Rg lists frequently a 1-of slot in the MD. According to Meta the access to already perfectly can justify this card the G Splash because it simply stops threats such as Jitte, Swords of F&I as well as hostile Vials (what the „Mana-Denial”-Factor of the deck improved) even pre board. "but that is yet Kacke if one has lie nen Warchief! "(there one no longer RG pay can) become itself now many think. My answer is: No. That become I short establishing. (1) in situations in which it the opponents one grants retain a Warchief to may, should play Artfakte no more role. One is is then anyway on the advance or in the Wiederufbau and TSH then "only "a Savannah Lion with Haste. (2) if one must really urgently Jitte "shattern "and a Goblin Warchief lies, one can this either attacking or blocking in be ruin send and finish in the connection TSH. (3) thanks to Matron and Ringleader, we have to determine find relatively flexible possibilities when we TSH. Moreover possibilities of the provision have can hold back, i.e. we a Warchief also once if TSH needs urgently the precedence.

4Th Sideboard

I separated the Sideboard deliberately from the Main cover, separate depends there here the Card Choices not only on Meta Game and Splash colors also very strongly after individual of the opinion and game experience. Here first of all a coarse sketch:

//Sideboard [15]:
3-5 Graveyard Hate
0-7 Combo Hate
2-5 Removal
Meta adaptations individual 0-5

a) Graveyard Hate
The preferences go strongly apart. Some prefer free GYH, other rather flexible, again others want that it is "absolute". I prefer free Hate, but that is only a personal estimation. Before I begin to explain the single cards, should know we first once what gehatet must become:
Survival list
Dredge/Ichorid
Aggro Loam
Canadian Thresh
New Horizons
Country

Absolutely, free of charge, counterbar. These three attributes play a role in the further explanation, therefore here shortly what I understand under that. A GYH is "absolutely "if it removes from with that all cards the cemetery, it is "selective "if only single cards are encountered. "free of charge "has reference to the Manakosten. A GYH is "uncounterbar "if that above mentioned. Do not cover it through magic sayings countern can.
Here the current Card Choices are:

Tormod's it Crypt – absolutely, free of charge, counterbar. Tormod's Crypt has the advantage that one forfeits no speed around the hostile GY hate. Moreover that is removed immediately entirely cemetery. Unconditionally suited to not to make around Tarmogoyfs flexibly (there the own GY remains where it is) and moreover counterbar. Latter plays wanted to consume however no really large role there the opponent in the rarest cases Counter in stock that he also for Tormod's it Crypt. A further disadvantage is that the opponent can prepare himself in the normal case already early for the Crypt and it can play around. Comprehensively: Goods against: Country, Dredge and Aggro Loam, moderate until badly against: Survival list, Canadian and New Horizons. (The letzen 3 draw itself through it from, that it also without your Graveyard very well to right come can and/or many possibilities have Crypt to play around).

Relic of Progenitus – absolutely, not free of charge, counterbar. The large brother of the Crypt is of the opinion is available us most popular and my after worst GYH of that. The advantages vis-à-vis Crypt: One can do likewise a card and…and…and…nothing. According to my opinion one is not advised forces as a Goblin pilot well if the GYH one in addition to release durably a Mana. Moreover one should practice gymnastics make other with its Mana in the first to play as a Relic. If it concerns therefore therefore, which finds both cards entrance into the SB, I would advise based on its sympathetic Manakosten always to the Crypt. Naja well one must admit that Tarmogoyf with Relic is to be gotten easier into the handle, but: one has also other Removal that around the disagreeable moose is concerned. Shortly: Goods against: Country and Aggro Loam (there here speed no roll plays), moderate until badly against: Can Thresh, New Horizons, Ichorid, Survival.

Faerie Macabre – selective, free, "uncounterbar". Faerie Macabre is absolutely unfit against measures of Graveyard cards (like one it for example in country finds). For that the fairy with the macabre humor shines aimed depend however in MU that usually on few GY cards (e.g. Survival). A further bonus point is that it can come also against combo to the use (as far as the opponent then with Ill Gods Gains plays). Incidentally: it does not land in the major meal, it costs no Mana and increases the Spll Count not. Shortly – goods against: Survival lists, Dredge, Loam and combo, moderate until badly against: Country, Can Thresh and New Horizons.

Extirpate – selective, not free, uncounterbar. Extirpate has next to Split Second the advantage that it perfectly lamely put many covers and/or can so very verkrüppeln that they to win are no longer dangerously enough over. Next to its function as Graveyard Hate, Extirpate is also as Mana Denial (Fetchländer ausrupfen or in combo with Wasteland use) and combo Hate (Sneak Attack, show and Tell, Brainstorm) usably. The disadvantage is here the same like in Relic of Progenitus: In order to be able to use it effectively as a GYH, must be kept free a country. There this country at least blackly its must give one the opponent unfortunately also information about that what approaches on it (just Dredge and Storm combo player seem an incredibly good Riecher for Extirpate to have).
Shortly – goods against: Survival, Ichorid, Can Thresh* (*if one Mongoose, Goyf or Duals encounters), moderate until badly against: Country, Loam, New Horizons.

Leyline of the Void – absolutely, free of charge, uncounterbar. Does if Leyline fulfill all three criteria for good GYH, why I introduced then the other generally? Very simply:
Who Leyline play wants to must enough well be the named MU also without it to win. This debatable and perhaps confusing thesis I will explain now shortly. Leyline is named would have in contrast to all other GYHs that I absolutely uselessly if one has not it on the start hand. One should make himself therefore no illusions to can it during the game hardcasten, that does not work out in 99% of the cases, and/or is filled is no longer meaningfully because the cemetery until there already with that what pure belongs. For this reason it never is also equal whether one plays now it in Rb, Rg or Mono R – the castingcosts of Leyline of the Void become a roll play. Now steps there and again naturally the situation up that Leyline is not same on the start hand. Here once a couple percent that indicate like probably it is that one a card that itself 3x and/or 4x in the cover finds on the start hand has (without Mulligan, with 1.2 and 3 Mulligans) :

3 Copies
No Mulligan: 36.89%
Gauze 6: 31.33%
Gauze 5: 25.88%
Gauze 4: 20.52%

4 Copies
No Mulligan: 49.18%
Gauze 6: 41.78%
Gauze 5: 34.50%
Gauze 4: 27.36%

Now we come to the second part of my thesis: "…must one well enough be around the named MU also without it to win".. Therewith I allude separate not only on (1) the own Spielskill also on the (2) experience with the hostile cover.
(1) goods player can win also without Graveyard Hate. Anderfalls never would become Goblins the first game in above mentioned. Win MU. It is natural differently heavy: Ichorid is Pre Board substantially crueler than Aggro Loam.
(2) if one a MU especially often played has learns one to do automatically instinctively that. Simultaneously one learns has the possibilities that the hostile cover to every moment of the game. Ichorid straight never can be rather opaque if one does not know it well enough, there the opponent one in Highspeed its cover entire before nose klatscht (more exact in addition later).
Result: who Leyline play wants should a high frustration tolerance have and grasped make come out itself thereon also it to must. That above mentioned. MU are to be challenged differently hard – however are all profit cash. Therefore Leyline is not to be looked at sooner than a supplement, and as „Alles-oder-Nichts" -Wincondition. Shortly: well against: Loam, country, Ichorid, Canadian Thresh, New Horizons, mäig until badly against: Survival lists (above all such that no problems have it to destroy).

b) combo Hate
Also here rich the opinions of "I win before not, therefore game I also no" up to "with 7 slots get I that into the handle". Out of experience, I would advise again to free Hate - and again is it only a personal estimation. Which gehatet will must are let obvious, therefore I the survey here away.
Here the cards standing to the decree:

Chalice of the Void – Chalice of the Void the combo Hate of that is misunderstood becomes and incorrectly played probably most frequently. It has play has obviously two applications: free of charge, therefore @ 0 or for 2 Mana therefore @ 1: Both its advantage: Ch@lice 0 turns mixed chrome, Lion's it Eye slide moon and Lotus Petal (soon perhaps also mixed opal) out of all including its sign Mana artefacts. Ch@lice 1 costs time, hates however Sensei's it Divining Top, Ponder, Brainstorm, Dark ritual, Chain of Vapor, would advise of flemish, Tinder rampart and High Tide. You see wants perhaps already whereon I out: During it in TES and ANT hard is to be said pay should be exactly whether one it in Belcher (@0) and High Tide (@1) unambiguous to for better 0 or 2 Mana. Everything is again once dependent on the start hand. Fast hands with 1st-Turn-Lackey should set play should on Speed (therefore @0) where slower (with 1st-Turn-Vial) sooner on security (therefore @1).
The actual advantage of the card is however that one has the selection: "either or…" bring it!

Pyrostatic Pillar – Pillar has the advantage that it supports the Aggro plan. The damage that this card caused Belcher, DDANT and lists with Ill Gods Gains is equal, there however according to experience it either with little Stormcount come out (Belcher) or have flexible answers ready (DDANT, Iggy pop). ANT lists and High Tide combo are eat (ANT) especially susceptible, there it either in the combo itself damage or a Stormcount of <20 does not suffice (High Tide). Because the latter are threatened by the extinction, I dissuade in the near future of Pillar.

Thorn of amethyst – the most frequent Konkurent of Chalice is the thorn out of Lorwyn. So long it lies is to be won it for combo hard until impossibly yet. The advantage is that it puts in all comboes MUs the same Effeltivität at the day. Disadvantage: it costs 2 Mana – always. Contrary to many opinion, I do not think that it would become against other covers geboarded, because usually more effective cards are available. If that should not be the case, the Sideboard draft perhaps again is to be considered.

Mindbreak Trap – mean according to opinion is the Trap exactly that what promises it: "Mindbreaking". If a combo player in G2 of the Goblin player gets to see no Combohate in form of permanently it, he assumes waits sometime automatically, that the Trap on the hand – and that is exceptionally once an advantage for us. There the Trap free of charge is not disturbs it our Setup in the slightest. Moreover it is must also no on every start hand. With the Mindbreak Trap in the cover, we can construct more or less soul quiet pressure, break (Mindbreak) during the opponent ourselves the head about that whether we have the Trap on the hand. In search of Protection, it goes then and again at our pressure on. If the opponent unprotected walks and he simply a risk goes in – should we until there however the Trap found have, can pass over we confident to games 3.

Cabal Therapy – not only combo is say Cabal Therapy special also Control-Hate.. many. I myself used only can speculate it only as a combo Hate therefore I over its value in the Control MU. The disadvantage is obvious: It does not encounter always its goal because the opponent either in response with Brainstorm all important can hide or one simply the incorrect card bennent. Nevertheless its value climbs proportionally to the number of Stingscourger and MWM in the cover.

Earwig Squad – combo cover in the solo effort can take apart Earwig Squad. To put 3 cards of rich usually out of around all Winconditions auszurupfen and/or the cover so lamely that it becomes harmless. Based on its "high "Prowl costs it should be played however never as the only Hate – it would be simply too slow. Its largest advantage lies in its flexibility: It can be used also well against many other covers (above all unknown) and similarly well lamely put this and/or verkrüppeln.

Removal
Against hostile Aggro cover, one simplifies himself the thing gladly with more Removal out of the Sideboard. In addition there is, to not to say much more. Card Choices:
Perish
Pyrokinesis
Stingscourger
Goblin Sharpshooter

individual Meta adaptations
Let's come to the probably most complicated part of the entire cover: Meata adaptations. After my estimation, there are for this just as much possible cards such as Goblin player. Most cards explain themselves of even, but the exact amount and constellation is here elementär. In the reason, it is advisably if possible much flexibility in this part to plug, especially if one cannot estimate the Meta Game - or only very vaguely -. A list of the cards that I schonmal in the Sideboard played would have, would be allowed to uncover probably the most interesting:
Pithing Needle
Krosan Grip
Nature it Claim
Reverent Silence
Disenchant
Serenity
Blood Moon
Anarchy
Goblin King
Boartuske couch
Speech Elemental blows
Engineered explosive
Umezawa's it Jitte
Choke

(nameless one)

09-22-2010, 10:27 PM

And like I said you guys can throw my primer around all you want doesn't make a difference to me. It's definitely better than what we have in the opening post although it is a little long if I recall. I'm not the kind of magic player who takes pride in being a voice for the deck and needs to let people know that I play goblins, I just like writing about magic.

Where can I find this fabled primer of yours?

ScatmanX

09-22-2010, 11:02 PM

Where can I find this fabled primer of yours?

Pmsg me your e-mail and I'll send it to you.
I'm also doing some modifications, basically adding more stuff, and doing some capitalization, card tags and stuff.
Will try to post is by the end of the month.

@new card: as always, I'm going to try it out, but not looking all that promissing.

GoboLord

09-23-2010, 01:34 AM

@Gun4Hire:
Thank you for translating my primer:
Goblin Primer, German (http://mtglegacy.de/showthread.php?tid=50).
I can only imagine how long it took you to translate the whole f*** piece of text (must have been like 3 hours).
The translation is mostly well done, but there are some German collocations that you simply can't translate 1:1. e.g. in the introduction:

Original: "Die Taktik des Decks ist (grob skizziert): "Immer auf die Fresse!"
You wrote: The tactic of the cover is (coarsely sketches) : Always on that would eat!
I would actually be: The deck's tactic is (in short): "Straight in ya faze!"

I guess ScatmanX could just share FoulQ's updated primer, this would give us a proper "translation" of what I wrote.

lorddotm

09-23-2010, 02:07 AM

lorddotm

09-23-2010, 02:07 AM

Gun4Hire

09-24-2010, 03:23 AM

Thanks GoboLord your very welcome and I'm glad you didn't mind me posting it :-)

All i did was go to yahoo and search for a German to English translator website and copied the german primer and then paste into the translator and it gave me a translated version. It only took about 5 mins. But I do want to apologize to everyone that alot of the stuff just doesnt translate to general english lol. So I will be going through it and try to correct it as much as I can so please be patient. Thank you and I hope some of you enjoy reading this very informative piece from GoboLord.

apoc23

09-25-2010, 09:14 PM

I enjoyed this article. It was very informative, thanks.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that Piledriver's ability can be stifled, though. Stifle is not targeting Piledriver, but the ability on the stack instead.

Pneumatiker

09-25-2010, 09:51 PM

1Stifle is not targeting Piledriver, but the ability on the stack instead.

You're right, it has been translated wrong. In German GoboLord's explaining that you have to be careful because the triggered ability of the Piledriver can be stifled.

Neuad

09-26-2010, 09:21 PM

The most exciting part about Scars is this awesome new goblin token, follow closely by the new Soldier token.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/cards/18422.jpg

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/cards/18421.jpg

Managed to get 6 at my stores pre-release.

ScatmanX

09-26-2010, 09:33 PM

Wow!
This are just not as cool as the Unglued ones, but are damn nice!

Amon Amarth

09-26-2010, 11:13 PM

I use the Goblin Tokens from ONS block. Altho' the Scars tokens are pretty nice.

MagicRare

09-27-2010, 01:02 AM

I posted this on a different forum but thought I would post it here...

here is it:

So I went to my first legacy tournament today. I lost in the first round to a guy who brought his standard uw control deck. I then won 4 straight but ended up losing he tournament because of round 1 loss.... So I know this is a stupid question. But are there any cards that can beat a uw control standard deck that can fit into a goblins sideboard.... I must beat this guy. Also do you have any tips on how to beat him... Any strategies?

Ps I play mono red goblins can't afford duals or wastelands or ports

Thanks

kicks_422

09-27-2010, 01:10 AM

Red Elemental Blast, I guess. Either that or mulligan into Turn 1 Lackey or Vial.

MagicRare

09-27-2010, 01:22 AM

Thanks... I know lackey is good. But vial seemed to slow.. he got up on his land drops and had mana for DOJ and stuff.. Am I playing it wrong????

Thanks

bakofried

09-27-2010, 01:32 AM

Without the mana-denial elements, it'll be rough. Try sandbagging Ringleaders; they'll give you a board presence and provide CA.

MagicRare

09-27-2010, 01:38 AM

Yea, I know i'm trying to get my hands on some... No luck... but still tis UW control Standard... lol...

What do you mean by sandbagging? Do you mean keeping them in your hand untill the best moment?

kicks_422

09-27-2010, 01:45 AM

Is DOJ Standard legal?

Yes, that's sandbagging. I still don't understand how you can lose to that though, if it truly is Standard UW control.

GoboLord

09-27-2010, 06:35 AM

Hey guys,

short report from a tournament on sunday. This was by far the strangest tournament I have ever played.

Round 1 UWb Landstill
He wins game 1.
I win game 2 very fast.
I win game 3 with an opening hand: Mountain, Lackey, Port, Port, Wasteland, Wasteland (after mulligan)
He had: 2 Wrath of God, 4 Plagues, 3 Humilty postboard.

Round 2 Dredge (with LED)
In game 1 I beat him down to 2 Life in turn 3.
He then uses 4 Trolls for Breaktrhough, finds 4 Bridge from below, but only 2 Mobae. In Short: he took me down 7(!) turns later.
I win game 2 because he has no Bridge, no Therapy and no Ichorids among the first 30 cards he "dredged"
Game 3: Leyline, scoop.

Round 3 TES ( a friend of mine)
Game 1: he doesnt take this game too seriously nd wins on turn 9 after several mistakes.
Game 2: Chalice (drawn on tunr 3 after he had turn 1 and 2 Duress) + Earwig Squad
Game 3: Chalice + Earwig Squad

Round 4 Aggro Elves
I win game 1
He wins game 2
In game 3 I have mulligan to 6 with : Perish, Perish, Kinesis, Kinesis, Vial, Port. I keep because his special list is rather slow. All 4 Massremol hit him in the curse of the game, taking down 3-4 Elves each. He wins, because the only creature I draw is MWM.

Round 5 Naya Zoo
Game 1: I have 3 AEther Vials, He hasturn 1: Hierarch; turn 2 Woolly Thoctar; Turn 3 Jitte equipped to Thoctar, beatz. I win game 1 although Jitte grew to 6 counters on it.
Game 3: lackey --> SCG, scoop.

Round 6 Enchantress
I win game 1: Mountain, Lackey, go. Lackey beats in turn 2, he sets his lifecounter on "19" and ask: What does that Goblin Lackey actually do? >.> Lackey into Warchief, play Piledriver. Turn 3: Landdrop, Matron, Piledriver, attack for 19.
Game 2: turn 2: Chalice@1, Turn 4 Chalice@2

Round 7 NQG/b
Game 1: mull down to 4, lost.
Game 2: Start with Leyline, Perish hits. He kills me with tons of SMother, Edicts, Hydroblasts and 2 Dark Confidant >.>

Conclusion:
Many though MU, few good players. I was very lucky. My philosophy is:

You need either luck or Brainstorm. I have luck, so I play Goblins.

ScatmanX

09-27-2010, 12:33 PM

To bad that loss to Elves... =/

Do you like CotV against Enchantress? What you take out for them?
Mind posting current list+sb?
Thanks.

GoboLord

09-27-2010, 01:08 PM

To bad that loss to Elves... =/

Do you like CotV against Enchantress? What you take out for them?
Mind posting current list+sb?
Thanks.

//Lands [22]
5 Mountain
3 Badlands
6 Fetchies
4 Waste
4 Ports

//Core [26]
4 Vials
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 SGC

//Flex-Slots: [12]
3 Gempalm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Stingscourger
4 Mogg War Marshal

//Sideboard [15]
3 Perish
3 Leyline
4 Chalice
2 Earwig Squad
2 Kinesis
1 Sharphooter

Against Enchantress I can board out 5 cards, because they are plain useless: 3 Gempalm, 2 Stingscourger.
So I can bring in 5 cards against them: 2 Squads, 3 Chalice.

I like Chalice @1 since it stops Elephant Grass and those mana-enchantments (Sprawl, Wild Growth). I played chalice @2 simply cause there was no other card on my hand (other than Lightning Bolt). But I don't think it's that great if you don't have enough pressure. I'd never keep a hand just because of Chalice.

Vandalize

09-27-2010, 02:59 PM

antonbystedt

09-27-2010, 03:49 PM

@Vandalize

U do not play ports and no MWM and you still don't play Warren Instigator? You even play Lightning Bolt, if i where you i would take out -4 Gempalm Incinerator and +4 Warren Instigator. Gempalm dont do much against the deck you want it against without MWM. Also with only wasteland as mana denial you can afford playing Warren Instigator.

Or you take out 4 mountains and play 4 Rishadan Port. The port is a really über card if you have Lackey or Vial in play, and then i would take out 4 Lightning Bolts for 4 MWM.

Neuad

09-27-2010, 03:50 PM

Caspid

09-27-2010, 03:52 PM

I'm p new, so take what I say with a lot of salt. Here're my thoughts:

Goblins aren't the MOST explosive deck out there, and in many cases, it's absolutely essential to keep the opponent off their mana or a certain color long enough for your guys to get through before a Wrath/Humility/whatever comes out. With fetches and duals, it's not really any slower (barring enemy Wastes). Resilience to nonbasic hate is great, but the inability to switch to playing more controllish limits its flexibility and you're stuck playing beatdown.

Black is prolly the best color to splash, just for Warren Weirding - a tutorable, Ringleader-able, nontargeted removal for that pesky Progenitus or whatever. Earwig Squad is great for ripping out key combo pieces that you might have a hard time racing. Perish is nice as well, and personally, I really like Wort for recurring whatever I need and beating for 3 each turn (too bad she's a removal magnet).

Not a fan of Lightning Bolt maindeck since it dilutes your Ringleader targets and Gempalm/Stingscourger/WW usually get the job done while being Goblins.

I think Chieftain's one of the weaker "main" Goblins and prefer not to include more than 1 or 2, since he doesn't really provide anything incredibly useful - just a little pump and backup haste-enabling where Piledriver would do more damage or Warchief would provide more utility. Unless you frequently encounter things like Engineered Plague.

If you're looking for more explosiveness, maybe Warren Instigator?
and I always thought Goblin King was funny with Blood Moon.

antonbystedt

09-27-2010, 03:52 PM

If you have a premium membership to starcity here is an article about goblins that was pretty lol worthy. The fellow thinks piledriver isn't worth a four of because it only really shines against merfolk. He has the fourth in the board.

Well, ive seen some goblin decks that only runs 2 Piledrivers, but those decks play more like a controll deck rather than an aggro deck.

Talanos

09-27-2010, 04:34 PM

//Lands [22]
5 Mountain
3 Badlands
6 Fetchies
4 Waste
4 Ports

//Core [26]
4 Vials
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 SGC

//Flex-Slots: [12]
3 Gempalm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Stingscourger
4 Mogg War Marshal

//Sideboard [15]
3 Perish
3 Leyline
4 Chalice
2 Earwig Squad
2 Kinesis
1 Sharphooter

GoboLord:

Do you have any issues playing 22 lands and 4 ports? I have been messing around with the land/port count for quite awhile and can never quite settle on what I think is best. I am currently testing 3 ports and 23 lands, which sometimes feels like too much land. 22 lands and 4 ports felt like not enough red. I was thinking of trying to get away with 22 lands and 3 ports next time. I love the idea of the consistent land control that 4 wastes/4 ports bring but the one red, many colorless land draw situations can get dicey. Interested to hear your thoughts and overall results with those numbers.

Also, how did you find the 4 war marshalls? I tried that out one week after losing in semis to zoo, and of course played no zoo next time. Have they been pulling their weight in the long haul?

Finally, what did you think of the bolts? Superior to wierdings in that spot?

Overall, it seems like your list is very anti-zoo between the 3 bolts and the 4 mwm plus 2 stingers. Its impressive that you beat zoo even with 3rd turn jitte out. I'd be very interested to hear how you think that slant affects your other matchups.

supachai

09-27-2010, 05:24 PM

GoboLord:

Do you have any issues playing 22 lands and 4 ports? I have been messing around with the land/port count for quite awhile and can never quite settle on what I think is best. I am currently testing 3 ports and 23 lands, which sometimes feels like too much land. 22 lands and 4 ports felt like not enough red. I was thinking of trying to get away with 22 lands and 3 ports next time. I love the idea of the consistent land control that 4 wastes/4 ports bring but the one red, many colorless land draw situations can get dicey. Interested to hear your thoughts and overall results with those numbers.

Also, how did you find the 4 war marshalls? I tried that out one week after losing in semis to zoo, and of course played no zoo next time. Have they been pulling their weight in the long haul?

Finally, what did you think of the bolts? Superior to wierdings in that spot?

Overall, it seems like your list is very anti-zoo between the 3 bolts and the 4 mwm plus 2 stingers. Its impressive that you beat zoo even with 3rd turn jitte out. I'd be very interested to hear how you think that slant affects your other matchups.

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I personally run 3 War Marshals and have found them amazing against Zoo. In addition I run 3 Chieftains main, which makes War Marshal's into 4 power for 2 mana, with haste-its simply amazing. I use to run Warren Instigator in that slot because it went nicely with Chieftains, but Instigator fails pretty hard late game unless you've got an overwhelming board position anyway. I replaced them with War Marshals and have never looked back. My list is extremely anti-Zoo and I've won more than 70% of my games against it, if not higher. My list for reference:

MD
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial

3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshall
3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain

4 Goblin Ringleader

2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain

SB
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Boartusk Liege
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon

GoboLord

09-27-2010, 05:48 PM

Sup guys, I've been playing Vial Goblins for like 1 year and i've finally got into a solid (but pretty much standard) list.

Here's what I'm playing at the moment:

Lands [20]

4x Wasteland
16x Mountain

Creatures [32]

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Chieftain
2x Stingscourger
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Lightning Crafter

Spells [8]

4x Lightning Bolt
4x AEther Vial

Sideboard [15]

4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Blood Moon
4x Tormod's Crypt
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
2x Goblin Tinkerer

I've always been into mono-red lists because they're pretty much more explosive. Vial Goblins is an explosive deck, so, in my opinion, Rishadan Port's Lock and other color splashes are kind of not useful, or even slow. I think the only acceptable splash is green, because of Perish and Krosan Grip, but with my tests, I've been finding Blood Moon very useful against many Threshold decks, Stax decks (mostly whitestax), heavy control decks like UWx Landstill and etc... Well, I won't really talk about Thorn of Amethyst, Tormod's Crypt and Goblin Sharpshooter because they're pretty much powerful standard sideboard cards.

Ah, forgot to say: All the enchantress decks just gave up when I played Blood Moon. It's just awsome.
Well, enchantress has Elephant Grass, with can give goblins a headache, but uh, with no Serra's Sanctum, they can't really pay that upkeep cost.

I've tested a black splash for Earwig Squad and some other black goblins. Well, I've realized that killing your opponent is faster than taking some cards from his deck. And, as you can see, I run no fetch lands neither dual lands. Reason? Making the popular Wasteland a dead card against the deck. You know what I'm talking about... 80% of Legacy's decks runs 4x wastelands, and having only basic lands is pretty much all you need for your mana base, since goblins play arround 1 or 2 lands easily.

Ah, Lightning Crafter... Merfolk's Nightmare, period.

Hope to recieve some critics/advices.

How are mono-red lists different (when it comes to explosiveness) from lists with B or G? Most of the MD cards are the same. changing 2-4 cards MD doesn't make any difference for it's explosiveness. I'd like to hear it if you don't agree.
I see no point in playing mono-red other than being less vulnerable to wasteland and Stifle, but...c'mon that isn't a issue for goblins. talking about 80% decks with wasteland is not the best argument, since 85% of the decks are playing Islands (which are nearly as threatening).

I'm p new, so take what I say with a lot of salt. Here're my thoughts:

Goblins aren't the MOST explosive deck out there, and in many cases, it's absolutely essential to keep the opponent off their mana or a certain color long enough for your guys to get through before a Wrath/Humility/whatever comes out. With fetches and duals, it's not really any slower (barring enemy Wastes). Resilience to nonbasic hate is great, but the inability to switch to playing more controllish limits its flexibility and you're stuck playing beatdown.

Black is prolly the best color to splash, just for Warren Weirding - a tutorable, Ringleader-able, nontargeted removal for that pesky Progenitus or whatever. Earwig Squad is great for ripping out key combo pieces that you might have a hard time racing. Perish is nice as well, and personally, I really like Wort for recurring whatever I need and beating for 3 each turn (too bad she's a removal magnet).

Not a fan of Lightning Bolt maindeck since it dilutes your Ringleader targets and Gempalm/Stingscourger/WW usually get the job done while being Goblins.

I think Chieftain's one of the weaker "main" Goblins and prefer not to include more than 1 or 2, since he doesn't really provide anything incredibly useful - just a little pump and backup haste-enabling where Piledriver would do more damage or Warchief would provide more utility. Unless you frequently encounter things like Engineered Plague.

If you're looking for more explosiveness, maybe Warren Instigator?
and I always thought Goblin King was funny with Blood Moon.

I agree with all of your points... though the topic of Lightning Bolt vs. Weirding leaves room for discussion

GoboLord:

Do you have any issues playing 22 lands and 4 ports? I have been messing around with the land/port count for quite awhile and can never quite settle on what I think is best. I am currently testing 3 ports and 23 lands, which sometimes feels like too much land. 22 lands and 4 ports felt like not enough red. I was thinking of trying to get away with 22 lands and 3 ports next time. I love the idea of the consistent land control that 4 wastes/4 ports bring but the one red, many colorless land draw situations can get dicey. Interested to hear your thoughts and overall results with those numbers.

Also, how did you find the 4 war marshalls? I tried that out one week after losing in semis to zoo, and of course played no zoo next time. Have they been pulling their weight in the long haul?

Finally, what did you think of the bolts? Superior to wierdings in that spot?

Overall, it seems like your list is very anti-zoo between the 3 bolts and the 4 mwm plus 2 stingers. Its impressive that you beat zoo even with 3rd turn jitte out. I'd be very interested to hear how you think that slant affects your other matchups.

I don't think playing Ports should influence the total number of lands you play. So far I've been playing either 0 or 4 Ports. If you run 4 Wastes + 4 Ports you have to be very carefull about the color requirements of your MD cards. I even had a 3-colored list with 4 Wastes 4 Ports and it wasn't much of an issue. In my paricular decklist there are no cards (other than core-stuff) with more than one R in their manacosts. Overall I think that the manadenial is really worth "crippling" your deck. You simply don't need cards like Warren Instigator, Wort and CHieftain. They are (as Caspid said) weaker "main" Goblins.

MWM came in to make things easier against Zoo. But in the course of several tournaments I raised their count form 1 to 2, then to 3, then to 4. They are totally insane with Gempalm and Piledriver. Plus, swarming your opponent with MWM makes it easier to get your Earwig Squad prowled. Last, they are helpful against Dredge, since they blast up Bridge from Below.

Weirdings vs. Bolts...hmm difficult topic. So far I didn't regret it, but there will be games when I will.
I play Bolts over Weirdings for 2 reasons: First, with 8 colorless nonbasics MD I want to keep my MD mono red, for not getting screwed. When you overload your deck with non-basics, opponent's wastelands can indeed be a problem. That's why I play Bolt, because I can fetch to basic Mountain in game 1 without having any disadvantage. Second, I hate making Goyfs bigger with Weirdings. Most of the time you lift them up to 5/6 (because you add Sorcery AND Tribal), and that's the point when they become nasty monsters. Without Weirdings they rarely become bigger than 3/4 and are therefore (in combination with chump-blockers) in range of Lightning Bolts.
Although that's not the reason I'd play Lightning Bolts, they have 2 nice side-effects: First, they are great against any other fast aggro deck (Zoo, Merfolk, Mirror, Elves) and second, you can burn your opponent down with them.

Well, as I said before: some choices were made to beat Zoo more easily. But Gempalm + MWM, Stingscourger and Lightning Bolts have other advantages. Overall, they improve your aggro MU and IMO you don't miss any card MD that would improve other MUs. Like Chieftain, Wort and Instigator, there are other cards that in my eyes simply do nothing to improve anything. Several pages ago someone listed up successful Goblin strategies. I noticed that splash-colors didn't seem to play a role, since each and every combination had success. Also this guy pointed out that those lists either run lots of removal (8) or produce lots of Goblin tokens (2 SGC, 4 MWM). I simply build a lists that combines both aspects, since I don't see any point why that should be a problem. I added black as splash color only for sideboard cards. It's not the splash that should define which cards we play in MD and SB but it's the cards we want in our optimal MD and SB that should define the splashes we play. I think the fact that we play any splash color should not "force" us to play Wort or Weirding or Tin Street Hooligan or whatever.

ScatmanX

09-27-2010, 06:02 PM

@GoboLord: How do you side against Zoo and Survival Vengevine?

GoboLord

09-27-2010, 06:09 PM

@GoboLord: How do you side against Zoo and Survival Vengevine?

Zoo:
<-- 4 Piledrivers
--> 2-3 Perish, 1-2 Kinesis (depending on number of G creatures)

Vengevival (suppose we lose game 1)
<-- 2 Stingscourger, 1 MWM
--> 3 Leyline
If I expect enchantment hate in g3 I change:
<-- 3 Leylines
--> 2 Squad, 1 MWM

bakofried

09-27-2010, 06:21 PM

Pretty much. Wait until they wipe the board, then go ahead and play him; with luck, he'll be tapped out (common enough in standard) and you can refill your hand and bash for 2. But, Anarchy is probably a decent option, as it blows up all their problem stuff, and has applications against Enchantress decks and Progenitus as well.

Vandalize

09-27-2010, 06:32 PM

I play 4x Lightning Bolts and 4x Gempalm for one reason...

Lightning bolt can open the path for Lackey, which actually is the best starter. Moreover, lightning bolt is a great card all game.
I've been in matches where it was decisive. Example: a stax deck, you start off punching in the face, and he stabilizes at 3 or 2 life.
You can't really do something against Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle when they're both in play. Here's where Lightning Bolt shines bright.

Gempalms, in my opinion, look like this: "Cycling 1R: Draw a card.... When you cycle Gempalm Incinerator, you can kill target Tarmogoyf in play."
Gempalms have a great synergy with Mogg War Marshal, but it's not really necessary to play both cards.

Against combo, thorn of amethyst is really the best choice imo. Earwig Squad is just too slow for combo decks like ANT and Belcher.
(at least, the ones I played used to combo turn 2). Even Pyrostatic Pillar is better than Earwig.

Now, about Warren Weirding... I've never seen a fast Progenitus deck, they're usually control ones. The thing is, progenitus is just one creature (a big one, i know) and when it's in play, you usually have 10+ life (that gives us two turns). On those two turns you can smack him (unless there's some Propaganda laying arround).

Vandalize

09-27-2010, 06:42 PM

Another big boss I'd like to talk about is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

It can duplicate a lot of big goblins like Piledriver and SGC (or even lackey, if you need).
It's not the fastest thing ever, but it can help in a several games, maybe...

ScatmanX

09-27-2010, 07:10 PM

@ Vandalize: Hi, welcome to TheSource.
Try using the Edit button to avoid double posting.

And the Search button to find stuff like this:

I kind of agree with Mantis. 1st, you cannot win a game on the back of Kiki alone, once he needs another goblin to be useful, thus making him an horrible topdeck. His ability can easily be stifled by any removal, not on him, but on the creature it is targeting.
I do believe it has helped you win games; games no other goblins would have won if it was not Kiki. Nevertheless, I think that in a lot of games, another SGC would have done the job also, and that there were a lot of times that he was dead, and you lost because it was not a SGC or something else.
The deal is, Kiki is very, very good when it works, and a blast to play. He is just so much fun. I have played him for a long time too. But he is not at all needed. The deck is very consistent as it is. Adding a creature that by it self does nothing makes that consistency worse.Also, there were not a single time that I needed to Matron him, once getting the goblin he was supposed to copy was simply that much safer.
Hope I made myself clear.

jrw1985

09-27-2010, 07:50 PM

Vengevival (suppose we lose game 1)
<-- 2 Stingscourger, 1 MWM
--> 3 Leyline
If I expect enchantment hate in g3 I change:
<-- 3 Leylines
--> 2 Squad, 1 MWM

Squads are great, and I'd include them both games.

Leyline makes me angry. I'd run Crypt or Faerie Macabre. Leyline has screwed me over too many times.

ScatmanX

09-27-2010, 08:08 PM

Squads are great, and I'd include them both games.

Leyline makes me angry. I'd run Crypt or Faerie Macabre. Leyline has screwed me over too many times.

GoboLord has explained why he runs 3 Leyline of the Void in his Primer, translated on the post #5324 in this thread, part 4, section A.
I do not agree it is the best choice, but apparently works for him.

jrw1985

09-27-2010, 08:30 PM

GoboLord has explained why he runs 3 Leyline of the Void in his Primer, translated on the post #5324 in this thread, part 4, section A.
I do not agree it is the best choice, but apparently works for him.

Yeah, 49% chance of getting it in the first 7. What I don't like is when my first 7 are Lackey, Weirding, Piledriver, Ringleader and land, and number 8 is Leyline. Now I'm being punished for keeping an otherwise great hand, and any GY hate would be better. That's it. Leyline is a bad card for Goblins since so much relies on mulling to a 1 drop. You gotta be pretty unbelievably lucky to get a hand that lets you start with a Leyline and a 1 drop, so I play Crypts and Faerie. Seems better, no?

ScatmanX

09-27-2010, 08:36 PM

overpowered

09-28-2010, 12:33 AM

In my current monored list I play 3 Faeries and 2 Crypts. =]
(While in black I prefer Extirpate or Planar Void)

Planar Void is a bomb, it has such little drawback for us in black (none if you don't run Wort) that it's worth the one mana. It's infinitely better than Leyline if you draw into it. I think that gives it enough of an edge to nullify a 1 CMC in matches where you side it in. Besides, against dredge, you're probably going to be on the play anyway ;)

Also, as a sidenote, if it gets chain of vapored you can recast if they don't go off. Good luck doing that with Leyline lol. :P

GoboLord

09-28-2010, 03:32 AM

Yeah, 49% chance of getting it in the first 7. What I don't like is when my first 7 are Lackey, Weirding, Piledriver, Ringleader and land, and number 8 is Leyline. Now I'm being punished for keeping an otherwise great hand, and any GY hate would be better. That's it. Leyline is a bad card for Goblins since so much relies on mulling to a 1 drop. You gotta be pretty unbelievably lucky to get a hand that lets you start with a Leyline and a 1 drop, so I play Crypts and Faerie. Seems better, no?

Well, the translation is way to messy to make clear what I think of Leyline. Here is a somewhat shortened version:

Leyline of the Void –

If you want to play Leyline, you have to be good enough to beat the opponent without it. I'll explain this rather debateable thesis. Leyline is the only available GYH that is completely useless when it's not on your opening hand. Well, of course there are situations when you don't have it. The chances to are:

with 3 copies
no Mulligan: 36,89%
Mull 6: 31,33%
Mull 5: 25,88%
Mull 4: 20,52%

with 4 copies
no Mulligan: 49,18%
Mull 6: 41,78%
Mull 5: 34,50%
Mull 4: 27,36%

This means that it's not unlikely to start without Leyline. This refers to the second part of my thesis: "...you have to be good enough to beat your opponent without it." . This refers to (1) your skill with Goblins and (2) your experience with your opponent's deck.
(1) Good players can win without GYH. If it weren't so, Goblins would never win game 1 against e.g. Dredge, Aggro Loam or Survival.
(2) If you pratice certain MU frequently, you learn how to do the best possible moves at any time, almost without thinking much. Plus, you get to know your opponent's deck and know what possible moves he can make at any time. Dredge in particular is hard to follow when your opponent plays in highspeed, not letting you time to disrupt him.
Conclusion: Who wants to play Leylines should be prepared for high levels of frustration. The decks I just named are hard to fight, but winable. Thus, Leyline should be seen as an additional threat for them, not as an "all-or-nothing-wincondition".

Nessaja

09-28-2010, 07:48 AM

This means that it's not unlikely to start without Leyline. This refers to the second part of my thesis: "...you have to be good enough to beat your opponent without it." . This refers to (1) your skill with Goblins and (2) your experience with your opponent's deck.
(1) Good players can win without GYH. If it weren't so, Goblins would never win game 1 against e.g. Dredge, Aggro Loam or Survival.
Your only variable here is the skill of he Goblins player, while in reality you are playing a mostly non interactive deck against Dredge; especially game 1. If you are not interacting with your opponent your skill isn't extremely relevant in the matchup. Practice, or no practice. Aggro Loam and Survival are another story, but Leyline isn't a card you use against those decks in the first place.

Conclusion: Who wants to play Leylines should be prepared for high levels of frustration. The decks I just named are hard to fight, but winable. Thus, Leyline should be seen as an additional threat for them, not as an "all-or-nothing-wincondition".
If you want to prepare for turn 1 or turn 2 kills you start packing Leylines. If you're going that route you should probably packing more then just 4 GY hate cards. It is by far the most effective GY hate card but also one that's dead when you draw it.

The only argument youre making is that Leyline of the Void is bad for applications it's not intended for in the first place. Skill isn't relevant in this argument.

If you're not preparing for matchups that will kill you turn one or two through the graveyard then Leyline is just a bad choice to pick and other options (crypt, relic even bog) are much better.

Vandalize

09-28-2010, 12:46 PM

Why play Leyline if you can do the same job with Tormod's Crypt? Leyline can be a very dead card, and it forces people to mulligan.
Tormod's can really deal with dregde. Yes, they can play arround it, but their combo is at least delayed for some turns. In my opinion, keeping yourself alive is enough.

I've seen some dregde decklists with Wispmare in sideboard. Your lovely Leyline can go to GY in turn 1.

FoulQ

09-28-2010, 01:12 PM

I've seen some dregde decklists with Wispmare in sideboard. Your lovely Leyline can go to GY in turn 1.

What a surprise, dredge prepares for the most common hate cards against it? It's accepted knowledge that leyline is more debilitating than crypt against dredge. This much we know for certain. Whether one is more consistent,or how much that consistency matters, is up for debate. Honestly all the talk about GY hate in every thread is a little meaningless. Many people will have different opinions and you can never really prove one card better than another, such is the nature of legacy's diverse card pool.

GoboLord

09-28-2010, 01:24 PM

I've seen some dregde decklists with Wispmare in sideboard. Your lovely Leyline can go to GY in turn 1.

The same is true for Ancient Grudge vs. Tormod's Crypt. Only that Crypt allows them to dredge and then flashback Grudge, while Whispmare has to be drawn. And you should notice that GY hate is not only about beating dredge.

@ FoulQ: True.

Nidd

09-28-2010, 01:29 PM

The same is true for Ancient Grudge vs. Tormod's Crypt. Only that Crypt allows them to dredge and then flashback Grudge, while Whispmare has to be drawn. And you should notice that GY hate is not only about beating dredge.

@ FoulQ: True.
Bold part is so true.

Leyline is a bomb against Dredge, but it's worse than any other GY hate against the other decks.

I don't want to use cards that are that narrow, that's why I use Relics + Crypts (Maybe Nihil Spellbomb will replace Relic. Maybe.).

ScatmanX

09-28-2010, 02:24 PM

Relic(Maybe Nihil Spellbomb will replace Relic. Maybe.).
If you're in black, there's no reason not to change Relics (if you play them) for Nihil Spellbomb.

Planar Void is a bomb
They won me many games against Dredge, where simply no other card would have won.
Also, no one names it with Cabal Therapy...

Nelis

09-28-2010, 02:44 PM

If you're in black, there's no reason not to change Relics (if you play them) for Nihil Spellbomb.

Why? Is it that important that you don't remove your own graveyard? Relic of Progenitus is better in all other aspects than Nihil Spellbomb.

ScatmanX

09-28-2010, 03:12 PM

Why? Is it that important that you don't remove your own graveyard? Relic of Progenitus is better in all other aspects than Nihil Spellbomb.

With Nihil you don't have to wait until turn 2 to remove your opponent grave from the game. With Relic you do.
Edit: And what GoboLord said in the next post.

GoboLord

09-28-2010, 04:13 PM

With Nihil you don't have to wait until turn 2 to remove your opponent grave from the game. With Relic you do.

Relic costs 1 Mana to activate, Nihil Bomb gives you 1 Mana. The fact that it's black doesnt matter since you can treat it as 1 colorless in a mono red list.

jrw1985

09-28-2010, 04:50 PM

What a surprise, dredge prepares for the most common hate cards against it? It's accepted knowledge that leyline is more debilitating than crypt against dredge. This much we know for certain. Whether one is more consistent,or how much that consistency matters, is up for debate. Honestly all the talk about GY hate in every thread is a little meaningless. Many people will have different opinions and you can never really prove one card better than another, such is the nature of legacy's diverse card pool.

Still, it is very important to discuss GY hate because GY recursion is the only way other decks get card advantage on Goblins. It's true. Sure there's the occasional Standstill, but the only way for other decks to consistently draw and play more cards than Goblins is through GY recursion, which is why hate is such an important part of the sideboard, and is open to so much debate. Goblins outdraws every other deck in Legacy (Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm MD for 12 cards that draw a card), and it cheats cards into play more frequently (Lackey, Vial, Instigator). All the decks that try to play fair can't keep up. That is why GY recursion is at the core of many prominent decks' strategies. Outside of Goblins and ANT GY recursion is essential for generating card advantage.

Now the question becomes: How do you minimize your opponents' card advantage while maintaining your own?
Clearly the answer is GY hate that disrupts your opponents' game plan without disrupting yours. This is the litmus test which I try to use in deciding my sideboard.

So, which cards pass the test?
Leyline of the Void absolutely shuts GY recursion OFF. It just kills it. Unfortunately, this power comes with the caveat that you must mull to it, and the very act of sideboarding it in means you've committed your gameplay to a strategy based around mulling to it. If you don't mull to it, it will be a dead card on the draw. By siding in Leyline you commit yourself to keeping a bad opening hand with it, or mulling away otherwise playable hands in order to get to it. Once again, if you side in Leyline but keep an excellent opening hand without it, you've just created 4 dead draws in your deck. Then Leyline will not disrupt your opponents' card advantage, and you will lose card advantage.

Tormod's Crypt and Faerie Macabre disrupt GY recursion. They are free to play, and you do not have to mull to them. They won't completely stop GY recursion, but they can usually hit the necessary pieces to keep your opponent from gaining card advantage. Essentially, they allow you to keep strong, aggressive hands without Gy hate because you know that once you draw them they'll still be playable. Also, because they are free to play they won't slow your board development.

Relic/Extirpate/Planar Void/ Nihil Spellbob are all inexpensive types of GY hate. You don't have to mull to them, but playing them will disrupt your board development. AKA you will have to choose between a t1 Lackey or Planar Void. Additionally, these cards generally require that you keep mana available in order to cast or activate them. This too slows your board development, costing you card advantage. Also, many of these require black mana, which will on rare occasions prevent you from playing them. Having a dead card in hand does nothing to stop your opponent's card advantage GY recursion, and certainly doesn't gain you any card advantage.

A lot of people have said that GY hate really comes down to a matter of personal taste. I disagree. It seems clear to me that Crypt and Faerie have the best synergy with a Goblin deck. You don't need to mull to them and you don't have to keep mana open to cast or activate them. This allows you to play out your deck like it's supposed to be played. Mountain, Lackey, Go.

Gun4Hire

09-28-2010, 05:00 PM

In my opinion Nihil Spellbomb is worse than Tormods crypt because it costs 1 to cast and another B mana to get its full effect while Crypt costs 0. So is 2CC 1B worth what crypt can do for free?

Also Relic of Progenitus is much better than Nihil Spellbomb because:
1) It costs the same.
2) It has the same activation cost but is colorless so much more flexible.
3) Removes all cards in all graveyards and you also get to draw a card as well.
4) Relic has the added ability to tap and remove a card in thier graveyard every turn until your ready to sac it for full effect.

So to the whole Tormods Crypt vs Relic debate:

Tormods Crypt Pros:
-It's free at 0cc
-It's the most efficient graveyard hate (debatable to Leyline)

Tormods Crypt Cons:
-Its the most expected so no surprise factor so decks prepare to see it
-It only removes one target graveyard
-It's not as efficient against Tarmogoyf

Relic of Progenitus Pros:
-More surprise factor so less likely to get Cabaled, Needled, or other types of hate
-It removes all graveyards
-Can stay on the table and remove a card every turn from opponents graveyard
-You draw a card after sacing
-Its the best of the two againt Tarmogoyf

Relic of Progenitus Cons:
-It costs 2 total for its effect so much more investment
-Its alot slower than Crypt in the early game

Talanos

09-28-2010, 05:12 PM

Relic costs 1 Mana to activate, Nihil Bomb gives you 1 Mana. The fact that it's black doesnt matter since you can treat it as 1 colorless in a mono red list.

But without black, you don't draw a card, and at that point, crypt is strictly better. Spellbomb seems like a halfway point between crypt and relic, in that you can pay a total of 1 instead of 2 like with the relic, but skip drawing a card. Or you can pay 2 just like relic (but requires an early badland) and draw a card. The downsides for this potential mana saving is that you don't nuke both GYs (worse vs goyf), and that you don't have access to relic's incremental removal over multiple turns.

ScatmanX

09-28-2010, 05:39 PM

I suggested that, IF someone was already playing Relic in RB goblins, Nihil would be better.

Also, people, read Nihil Spellbomb, please. It is: 1 to play, and you don't have to pay 1 more to activate it. So it IS faster than Relic.

Tacosnape

09-29-2010, 12:27 AM

Tormod's Crypt lets you remove the opponents' graveyard just as fast as Nihil Spellbomb, and also lets you play Aether Vial, Wasteland, or Goblin Lackey in the process. This makes it the clear winner in mono-red.

As for Black-Red, why's nobody mentioning the Vial-friendly Faerie Macabre, or the more face-wrecking but less nifty on a topdeck Leyline of the Void?

Nidd

09-29-2010, 02:28 AM

Maybe we should make it more clear...

Cost to play & activate Crypt: 0
Cost to play & activate Spellbomb: 1 (without draw effect)
Cost to play & activate Spellbomb: 1B (with draw effect)
Cost to play & activate Relic: 2

As you can see, Relic is the slowest, artifactbased GYHate available, while Crypt is the fastest. Spellbomb is in between and is "modal", you can draw a card with it if you're Rb and if you can accept some loss of speed.

GoboLord

09-29-2010, 03:23 AM

Leyline of the Void absolutely shuts GY recursion OFF. It just kills it. Unfortunately, this power comes with the caveat that you must mull to it, and the very act of sideboarding it in means you've committed your gameplay to a strategy based around mulling to it. If you don't mull to it, it will be a dead card on the draw. By siding in Leyline you commit yourself to keeping a bad opening hand with it, or mulling away otherwise playable hands in order to get to it. Once again, if you side in Leyline but keep an excellent opening hand without it, you've just created 4 dead draws in your deck. Then Leyline will not disrupt your opponents' card advantage, and you will lose card advantage.

Most of what you say is true, BUT...

you do not have to mull to Leyline.

That's exactly what I said in my post:
Against decks you would bring Leyline in (Lands, Dredge, SUrvival, Aggro Loam) you should by no means mull to Leyline because you can simply keep hands that are strong enough even without GY hate. Thus, you just go for your 1st turn Lackey/Vial and have an additional threat (namely Leyline) to be on your opening hand. I would NEVER keep a hand only because of Leyline. So, either you have a great start and have Leyline, or you have a great start without it. Those decks are beatable with and without GY hate.
Topdecking Leyline is avoidable since you can use your Ringleader to stack them on bottom of your deck. btw. I'd advice not to play a full playset in SB - on my last 8 tournaments I had only 3 copies in order to keep this "dead-card-factor" low.
Faerie Macabre and Crypt are dead cards too when you don't have them in turn 1-3, cause that's the time when their GY becomes ugly.

ScatmanX

09-29-2010, 09:44 AM

Faerie Macabre and Crypt are dead cards too when you don't have them in turn 1-3, cause that's the time when their GY becomes ugly.

I don't think this is true.
Faeries help me a lot against Loam, even later in the game, when they want to Dredge LftL, and I dan remove it, even after a CotV@1. Smae is true for Vengevival, where they can find Survival only on turns 4 or more, then you can be prepared.
Dredge is way tuffer though, but sometimes, removing Bridge or Ichorids is enough.

jrw1985

09-29-2010, 12:46 PM

Most of what you say is true, BUT...

you do not have to mull to Leyline.

That's exactly what I said in my post:
Against decks you would bring Leyline in (Lands, Dredge, SUrvival, Aggro Loam) you should by no means mull to Leyline because you can simply keep hands that are strong enough even without GY hate.

Yes! Exactly! Which is also exactly why you should board GY hate that is actually playable outside of your opening 7! AKA- Not Leyline. If your gameplan (yes YOU, personally, GoboLord-- your gameplan, as stated above) is to keep solid starting hands that don't have Leyline, then you should be playing something else for GY hate. It just makes sense. Leyline isn't castable. It serves no practical purpose outside the first hand.

Faerie Macabre and Crypt are dead cards too when you don't have them in turn 1-3, cause that's the time when their GY becomes ugly.

hrmf...
My turn to do the number crunching!
If you side in 4 Tormod's Crypts your chance of drawing one...
In the opening 7 = 49.18%
8th card = 56.73%
9th card = 64.42%
10th card = 72.26%

So your chance of drawing one within the timeframe you sited is better and the effect will be the same (possibly moreso- having Leyline in play turn 0 makes your opponent play around it from the beginning. A faerie or Crypt in hand can trap your opponent into comitting resources to a GY recusion strategy, then stripping them).

I think I've proven my point here. Running Non-Leyline GY hate actually makes it far more likely to get GY hate in the games where you need it! Because you can still play Non-Leyline cards after the first turn you are much more likely to disrupt your opponent's GY recursion.

My hope, really, is that you swap out your Leylines for some Crypts or Faeries. Then try them out for a tournament or two and see if you aren't convinced. I too used to believe in the power of the Leyline. There was no better start than a Leyline and a Lackey. Unfortunately I soon found that my opponents had too many answers to Leyline. Bounce and removal destroyed my game plan, and left me drawing into dead cards. It became clear that having flexible, playable options was the best solution for disrupting GY recursion.

GoboLord

09-29-2010, 01:10 PM

Ok, your reasoning has a point, BUT...(and this time it's my last but)

I do not want to draw GY hate in the curse of the game. That's why I'd never run more than 3 copies. For any other GY hate to be effective you need 4 copies, cause they are not as finishing and game-breaking as Leyline.
You say that they wil just play around Leyline from the beginning. Would you please tell me how Lands, Aggro Loam, Dredge and Survival can play around Leyline?
As for your hope: I actually swapped Relics for Extirpate for Crypts for Faeries for Leyline (each after a long period of testing, cause I can't stand if someone -including me- talks about cards he has never played).

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Leyline is the GY hate card. I'm just pointing out why it works out for me better than any other GY hate did so far.

Nelis

09-29-2010, 02:56 PM

I think the fact that Relic also removes cards without having to sacrifice it is a very strong ability which makes it much more useful vs any graveyard based deck not counting dredge than any of the other graveyard removal available.

@Gobolord: Survival just survivals for enchantment removal. Aggro Loam can wait for their enchantment removal, it has more than enough other things to do. No clue about Lands or Dredge, I don't know those decks well enough to know how they handle graveyard hate.

Talanos

09-29-2010, 03:15 PM

I think Gobo's point is that he'd rather maximize the number of amazing openings as opposed to drawing into a less optimal GY hate on turn X. If he doesn't draw leyline, he hopes to just win off mountain-lackey-go or vial-go as he would have in game one. If he does draw leyline, he gets continuous suppression of their entire gameplan online starting turn 0. The time it takes them to get any kind of answer and then start from scratch is probably enough to win.

It's sort of like saying that he'd rather crush 1/3 of the time than have a one shot advantage 3/4 of the time, perhaps because he feels that with a hate card that's easier to play around, he'd rather just have drawn some goblin pressure instead.

Of course, he's making a qualitative judgment that leyline is just so much better than the other options should you open with it that it justifies the gambit, but that's his call to make. The question to ask is, how much more likely is leyline to buy you the time to win vs. crypt, etc.? If opening leyline results in a win X% more of the time than a crypt, and Y% is the difference in your chances of opening with a leyline vs. drawing a crypt in the first 3 turns, then is X% greater than Y%? Obviously, it may not be possible to judge this to precision, but clearly Gobo has, at least intuitively, decided that it is.

GoboLord

09-29-2010, 03:21 PM

Nidd

09-29-2010, 03:40 PM

I think the fact that Relic also removes cards without having to sacrifice it is a very strong ability which makes it much more useful vs any graveyard based deck not counting dredge than any of the other graveyard removal available.
When Relic's Tap ability removes relevant cards, we can call that a cornercase, I think. Against Dredge, like you said, the Tap does literally nothing. Against Loam/Lands, I guess they can play around this and also have other stuff hitting their GY so that they don't have to remove relevant stuff.

I think that you either need to wipe out their whole GY (Crypt, Relic activation, Spellbomb) or take out keycards (Faerie Macabre) in order to succeed. Or you land stuff like Planar Void or Leyline, which take care of stuff anyways, if they stay on the battlefield.

Tapping Relic and hoping to do something with it is the worst form of GY hate, I'd rather take the speed of Crypt + Spellbomb than the guaranteed cantrip + the bad Tap ability.

Talanos

09-29-2010, 04:10 PM

*grins*

*adds sig*

I may have to share the honor with Google, though. ;)

Vandalize

09-30-2010, 12:26 PM

Do we really need to totally disrupt your opponent's GY?
I mean, goblin is a really fast deck, you can put a lot of damage in a few turns. Against Dredge, which is a faster deck, you can really disrupt people with a single crypt. They will need 3 or 4 turns to get their combo working again.
Each deck has a best option for GY hate.

Relic of Progenitus is great against Vengevival.
Tormod's is great dredge, Loam decks.
Leyline is the best GY disrupt, although, it might rain on your parade if you don't draw it in your opening hand.

I think the point is just survive until you can smack them with piledrivers or whatever.

Tacosnape

09-30-2010, 12:39 PM

My turn to do the number crunching!
If you side in 4 Tormod's Crypts your chance of drawing one...
In the opening 7 = 49.18%
8th card = 56.73%
9th card = 64.42%
10th card = 72.26%

So your chance of drawing one within the timeframe you sited is better and the effect will be the same (possibly moreso- having Leyline in play turn 0 makes your opponent play around it from the beginning. A faerie or Crypt in hand can trap your opponent into comitting resources to a GY recusion strategy, then stripping them).

Your logic and math are both flawed, because you have more information than that. You -know- what your first seven cards are. If you don't see the card in the first seven, the chances are no longer 72.26% for you to hit one in the next three cards. They're less than 10%. Therefore if you think you need to mulligan into graveyard hate to win, you -still- need to Mulligan that seven card hand, because you're not going to keep it.

You also don't factor in that Leyline of the Void is more powerful, faster, uncounterable/unstifleable (Nice versus UG Vengesur), and immune to discard, which is pretty important given that a ton of yard-reliant decks pack black.

You ALSO have to factor in how much it costs a deck to board in four graveyard hate cards. Goblins, more than most decks, suffers from boarding a ton of stuff in. If, for example, you pack Pyrokinesis, Pithing Needle, and Leyline of the Void all in your sideboard and you're facing Vengevine Survival, boarding all three in heavily thins your goblin base. Therefore with Goblins, you're probably not going to bring in your yard hate until you -really- need it, meaning you're more likely to want the strongest piece possible, which would in most cases be Leyline of the Void.

I'm not necessarily advocating Leyline, don't get me wrong. Topdecking it is awful, and it's highly vulnerable to bounce. I'm just pointing out that you can't make all the subtle points and skewed math in favor of your choice and abandon the arguments in favor of the other.

Thomas1991

09-30-2010, 12:44 PM

hi guys i am currently testing greater gargadon in de sideboard agains jitte and maybe ichorid?

my thinking was that most decks that run jitte can't destroy gargadon and you can prevent jitte to get counters.

im also playing mogg warmarshall main against the zoo matchup so yeah

anjy thoughts?

Neuad

09-30-2010, 12:56 PM

Small tournement report. Was only 4 rounds cut to top8.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [U] Taiga
6 [ON] Mountain (3)
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [UL] Harmonic Convergence

Current list. Harmonic Convergence is because we see ALOT of enchantress so I need a way around Karmic Justice.

Round1 vs Deedstill.

Game1 - I win and go first. Mountain Lackey go. he goes USea Innocent Blood. Turn 2 Mountain lackey go. He ghastly demises it. He drew every answer he could to all my stuff and we were off to game2.

No boarding as I don't have many answers short of blowing up in his face.

Game2 - Turn1 vial off a waste go. Got a lackey in there but he failed to connect, then a deed ruined my night, followed by a tsabo's decree naming goblins. I scooped and went to the bar before round2.

Round2 vs a friends UW countertop landstill mix of bad.

Game1 - He keeps my lackey from connecting by vial gets me an army out, and I swing for the win on turn4 or 5.

Didn't think to board in enchantment hate because I know he runs MD humility/moat but ohwell, no boarding.

Game2 - He gets turn4 Humility turn5 Elspeth. I scoop.

Board out 2 weirdings and 1 scourger for 3 Harmonic Convergences.

Game3 - Lackey gets there, brings out Ringleader into 3 goblins. Army gets there on turn4.

Round3 vs Excalibur/Zoo mix (equipment heavy zoo deck) budget. . .no fetches or duals.

Game1 - He doesn't draw any removal, and I'm able to weirding his blocker out of the way and swing for the win turn 4 or 5.

Board out Sharpshooter, Chieftan, and Kiki for 3 perishes.

Game2 - First turn lackey connects bringing in a wort. He draws no removal and I'm able to weirding him every turn. . . draw into a perish and a 2nd black source. Perish > Weirding > swing for win on turn 6 or 7.

Round4 vs Goblins w/ small white splash.

Game1 - I keep an opener of Land land lackey sharpshooter warchief something something, don't know what I'm playing. Vial off a wasteland go. He plays lackey. I look at the sharpshooter in my hand and laugh. I keep him from attacking with his lackey with a pile driver, turn 3 I put the warchief in with vial, then sharpshooter and ping away his team. He doesn't get to refuel and I get there.

-2 Weirdings
+2 Pyrokenesis

Game2 - Turn 1 vial, turn2 vial. . .he can't keep up with my tempo after a crafter comes down, and I get there with 2 warchiefs with crafter clearing the way.

Top8 round1 vs zoo

Game1 - I keep an opener of lackey land land goblins. Dont see another land and get run over.

Board out sharpshooter, tinkerer, and a lackey for 3 perishes

Game2 - Lackey gets bolted, managed to stick a chief. . .ringleadered into 4 goblins. . played some. . .ringleadered next turn into 4 goblins. . .with 3 drivers and 3 others on table, vs his 3 blockers, I matron for a scourger, bounce a blocker. Play the 2nd scourger in my hand, and swing for lethal thanks to Sylvan Library.

Game3 - Same as game1, didnt draw any land past my opening 2 and just got ran over by nacatl's.

Sorry it's not very specific, still working on taking better notes and remembering stuff better.

Now I have a question.

In the mirror match round4. . .board state looked like this.

He had 4 lands in play. Port Waste Fetch Mountain. He's at 8

I had 4 lands. . .mountain x4. . .2 vials (set at like 3 and 4, but tapped) 2 tapped warchiefs, and an untapped crafter (under a lackey). I'm at 18 or 19

We both had a few cards in hand. End of my turn he cycles gempalm to kill my crafter.

I tap my crafter blowing up my warchief. Was this the correct play? With his life total was saving my crafter more important then that warchief, seeing as crafter was 3 a turn no matter what?

ScatmanX

09-30-2010, 01:48 PM

I tap my crafter blowing up my warchief. Was this the correct play? With his life total was saving my crafter more important then that warchief, seeing as crafter was 3 a turn no matter what?

I think you could be right in that situation. Crafter wins the mirror, and you had a 2nd Warchief in play, so yeah, nice move.

GoboLord

09-30-2010, 01:54 PM

Now I have a question.

In the mirror match round4. . .board state looked like this.

He had 4 lands in play. Port Waste Fetch Mountain. He's at 8

I had 4 lands. . .mountain x4. . .2 vials (set at like 3 and 4, but tapped) 2 tapped warchiefs, and an untapped crafter (under a lackey). I'm at 18 or 19

We both had a few cards in hand. End of my turn he cycles gempalm to kill my crafter.

I tap my crafter blowing up my warchief. Was this the correct play? With his life total was saving my crafter more important then that warchief, seeing as crafter was 3 a turn no matter what?

He didn't have creatures. He's at 8 and you are at 18. That means that he's in defense.
I'd have shot him for 3 in response, let Crafter die to have deadly 5 damage (2 Warchief, 1 Lackey) on table for next turn. This means that he has to deal with 3 creatures that have do 5 dmg instead of 2 creatures that have to to 8 dmg.

ScatmanX

09-30-2010, 04:09 PM

He's at 8.
Totally skipped this part.
Yeah, Gobbo is right...
And, after Gempalm, he'll only have 2 lands in play (one of them a fetch) to deal with your guys.

TheSleeper

09-30-2010, 06:06 PM

Anyone read C Phillips latest report (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/20191_Insider_Information_A_Legacy_Goblins_Followup.html)(free on SCG) where he T4'd with BR Goblins - thoughts on this list/SB?

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Tribal Sorceries
2 Warren Weirding

Basic Lands
5 Mountain

Lands
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Piledriver
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish

ScatmanX

09-30-2010, 06:17 PM

jrw1985

09-30-2010, 07:05 PM

Started reading the report.
Match 1, game 2: He is on the play, but side out Goblin Lackey. Does anyone do that?
It seems like a terrible choice to me...
Also, he sides out Mogg Warmarchal against Dredge. Do people that run him do that?

I need to become a member. I really want to read that article. I saw in his follow-up that he sides out Lackey. That doesn't seem good to me at all, but the fact that he plays 4 War Marshalls suggests that he plays a less aggressive game and plans on doing a lot of chump blocking as he builds his horde. Dunno. Removing Lackey seems way too counter-intuitive. But, against an Aggro deck, how often does Lackey get through game 2?

ScatmanX

09-30-2010, 07:22 PM

I need to become a member. I really want to read that article. I saw in his follow-up that he sides out Lackey. That doesn't seem good to me at all, but the fact that he plays 4 War Marshalls suggests that he plays a less aggressive game and plans on doing a lot of chump blocking as he builds his horde. Dunno. Removing Lackey seems way too counter-intuitive. But, against an Aggro deck, how often does Lackey get through game 2?

You don't need Premium to read that report.

I realize Lackey rarely connects against agroo when we're on the Draw, but that game 2 he was on the Play.

HerrFunker

09-30-2010, 09:14 PM

hello I mostly play MTGO where Port is not available. I have read the past 20 or so pages. I play Black splash goblins for SB and WW. My question is do you think in splash goblins where port is not available is it worth running 3 mutavaults? I only run 1 chieftain and no Instigators currently. I can see it being helpful to get that 1 extra damage on the incinerator or for a body to swing after the firespout. Is it worth being more susceptible to Wastland? also hi I'm the newbie.

Caspid

09-30-2010, 09:42 PM

You don't need Premium to read that report.

jrw was referencing the article from the week before (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20158_Insider_Information_Goblins_in_Legacy.html - where I assume Goblins were talked about, people disagreed, then he went to this tourney to prove his stuff). I'm also curious about what he said, particularly about 4 MWM and 3 Piledriver.

dar482

09-30-2010, 10:26 PM

jrw was referencing the article from the week before (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20158_Insider_Information_Goblins_in_Legacy.html - where I assume Goblins were talked about, people disagreed, then he went to this tourney to prove his stuff). I'm also curious about what he said, particularly about 4 MWM and 3 Piledriver.
That's completely fine with me if you're planning to run into a lot of mirror matches and Zoo.

Again, the bigger question I had is how he possibly thinks he can beat UG Survival consistently.

ScatmanX

10-01-2010, 01:24 AM

@Article: His first article sucked. The new one is where there's something usefull.
I think Goblins can beat Survival. But I do not agree in his side-ins/side-outs in many MU's...
For instance, I think knesis is very good against Survival.

@HerrFunker: Playing Mutavault is an option, if your manabase can support it. It is good vs. sweepers, good with incinerator and Piledriver, and particulary good against Merfolk. Dependig on the MU's you expect, Volrath's Stroghold can be better.
Usually, though, none are played, cause people prefere a more stable manabase, since goblins is a very mana hungry deck.
(Welcome to TheSource)

HerrFunker

10-01-2010, 02:08 AM

@HerrFunker: Playing Mutavault is an option, if your manabase can support it. It is good vs. sweepers, good with incinerator and Piledriver, and particulary good against Merfolk. Dependig on the MU's you expect, Volrath's Stroghold can be better.
Usually, though, none are played, cause people prefere a more stable manabase, since goblins is a very mana hungry deck.
(Welcome to TheSource)

Thanks for the advise I will test Stronghold first since they are cheaper. Think 2 will suffice? Since you never need more than one at a time.

Also @ survival matchup it depends on what build they are using. For builds that use vengevine and madness creatures I usually bring in Perish and needles. For combo with fewer creatures I bring GY hate+ needles. Needle on Survival is really our best answer, and just save removal for fauna shaman. Then they are just another bad agro deck.

Also has anyone seen the turbo survival version with Lion's eye diamond? It is more explosive than dredge often swinging for 12 on turn 2. If that list becomes big then relic is too slow for us.

lebarion

10-01-2010, 10:37 AM

Started reading the report.
Match 1, game 2: He is on the play, but side out Goblin Lackey. Does anyone do that?
It seems like a terrible choice to me...

I'm not exactly a Goblin specialist, but I have exactly the same thoughts. I wouldn't do that, and my logic is:
On the draw, merfolk can stop lackey only with is Cursecatcher or FoW. Even if they stop the first turn lackey woth one of these plays, it is beneficial for you, as you gained card-advantage and/or developed your mana base, what is more important for Goblins than for Merfolk.

Also, he sides out Mogg Warmarchal against Dredge. Do people that run him do that?

I don't agree with this, too. While I see that not paying MWM's echo could be too slow to stop Dredge, any tools you have against them are welcome.

ScatmanX

10-01-2010, 11:24 AM

@HerrFunker: 1 Volrath if you really want to test it, since is Legendary land.
I don't think that turbo Survival deck will see play. It looks way more inconsistent the the UG one.

@Lebarion: Exactly my thoughts. Also, all our removal spells kill a 1st turn Cursecatcher with a Lackey in play, so I don't think it usually stops it.

bloodbrother

10-04-2010, 10:19 AM

hi guys

i would just like to ask what's the general consensus regarding the SB in an unknown meta?

thanks in advanced

JonBarber

10-04-2010, 10:29 AM

hi guys

i would just like to ask what's the general consensus regarding the SB in an unknown meta?

thanks in advanced

Aggro hate, grave hate, and combo hate. Personally I'm a fan of pyrokensis, leyline of the void, and chalice of the void. For the last couple slots, decide what you want to be more prepared against. Aggro? Play a couple sharpshooters or perishes. Combo? Toss in some mindbreak traps/thorn of amethysts/pyrostatic pillars in addition to the chalices. Control? Play blood moons. Graveyard based decks? Play some planar voids/T-crypts/faerie macabre

bloodbrother

10-04-2010, 10:39 AM

Aggro hate, grave hate, and combo hate. Personally I'm a fan of pyrokensis, leyline of the void, and chalice of the void. For the last couple slots, decide what you want to be more prepared against. Aggro? Play a couple sharpshooters or perishes. Combo? Toss in some mindbreak traps/thorn of amethysts/pyrostatic pillars in addition to the chalices. Control? Play blood moons. Graveyard based decks? Play some planar voids/T-crypts/faerie macabre

thanks, i have additional question. is enchantment hate not worth a sideboard slot in goblins? i've been locked out of the game using needle on my vial and ghostly prison in play.

JonBarber

10-04-2010, 10:50 AM

Umm, that sort of stuff isn't in most meta's, but if your concerned about it being in yours you can play anarchy or splash green.

ScatmanX

10-04-2010, 11:07 AM

thanks, i have additional question. is enchantment hate not worth a sideboard slot in goblins? i've been locked out of the game using needle on my vial and ghostly prison in play.

If you want to stay in monored, you can use Lightning Crafter, Sharpshooter, Siege-Gang Commander, and burn him trough Prision...

igri_is_a_bk

10-04-2010, 11:21 AM

I'm not exactly a Goblin specialist, but I have exactly the same thoughts. I wouldn't do that, and my logic is:
On the draw, merfolk can stop lackey only with is Cursecatcher or FoW.

You also have to expect Merfolk to side in some number of BEBs, which can also deal with Lackey on the play or draw.

ScatmanX

10-04-2010, 12:03 PM

You also have to expect Merfolk to side in some number of BEBs, which can also deal with Lackey on the play or draw.

Yes, but then they wasted their best counter and removal on a 1cc card, instead of countering Matron, Piledriver, Ringleader, SGC...
Lackey does not have to connect. Clearing counters away for Driver is already very good.

HerrFunker

10-04-2010, 01:59 PM

Aggro hate, grave hate, and combo hate. Personally I'm a fan of pyrokensis, leyline of the void, and chalice of the void. For the last couple slots, decide what you want to be more prepared against. Aggro? Play a couple sharpshooters or perishes. Combo? Toss in some mindbreak traps/thorn of amethysts/pyrostatic pillars in addition to the chalices. Control? Play blood moons. Graveyard based decks? Play some planar voids/T-crypts/faerie macabre

with the group I play with Survival is big. Seems like the deck is getting more and more popular. If you think it will be in your area I would have some needles in your side. They also do well against Painter/Belcher and a few other gimmick decks or in a pinch shut down jitte.

bloodbrother

10-04-2010, 03:55 PM

hi guys

here's what i plan to run.

3 Mogg Fanatic (for bridge from below)
4 Æther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Warren Weirding (for iona, dark depths, progenitus)
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie (ringleader number 5)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (maindeck answer to artifacts)
1 Lightning Crafter (combo with the sideboard, extra removal, extra matron, ringleader, siege-gang triggers)
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (combo with the sideboard, extra matron, ringleader, siege-gang triggers)
22 Lands

so far testing the main deck seems fine. i need comments regarding my sideboard.

3 Pithing Needle
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Greater Gargadon

explanation of sideboard choices
3 Pithing Needle - lots of possible targets but mainly for survival of the fittest i guess
4 Thorn of Amethyst - possibly slows combo and burn decks a little bit
4 Tormod's Crypt - this + warren weirding for reanimator, this + greater gargadon for dredge
4 Greater Gargadon - this + tormod's crypt for dredge, answer to ghostly prison

thanks in advance

GoboLord

10-04-2010, 04:01 PM

with the group I play with Survival is big. Seems like the deck is getting more and more popular. If you think it will be in your area I would have some needles in your side. They also do well against Painter/Belcher and a few other gimmick decks or in a pinch shut down jitte.

Plus, I like Needle to improve my mana-denial-plan. But somehow there's no room in my SB.
I run 4 Ports, 4 Wastes and I'd really like to have Needle in SB to shut down fetchies.
Any suggestions?

//Lands [22]
4 Mountain
6 Fetches
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
8 Manadenial

// Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Pile, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, SGC

//Flex [12]
3 Gempalm
2 Stingscourger
3 Lightning Bolt
3 MWM
1 Tin Street Hooligan

//Sideboard [15]
3 Leyline otV
4 Chalice otV
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
3 Nature's Claim

My meta is really diverse. All I can say is that there are hardly mono-colored decks and/or rouge-decks. Overall I guess it's very deep into U, W and G (in all possible combinations).

How would you integrate Needle in SB?

ScatmanX

10-04-2010, 05:53 PM

jrw1985

10-04-2010, 08:02 PM

I wrote another tournament report I thought I might as well share here.

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Instigator
1 Earwig Squad

Tribal Sorcerys
2 Warren Weirding

Basic Lands
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Rishadan Port
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard-
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Earwig Squad
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chalice of the Void

Round 1 - Zoo
Game 1 I drew him into deep waters and won, despite being beaten down to 4 life points before I staged my comeback. It was one of those games where I thought I was already dead. 4 life needed only 1 Fireblast or 2 other burn spells to finish me off. When my horde started to grow and he had to throw a Bolt at my otherwise unblocked Lackey I knew I had a chance. It was the sort of game where I made the mental decision to not give up and to play as though I had a chance of winning. And it worked out for me.

Sided out Instigator and Earwig for 2 Pyrokinesis. I no longer run Perish or other color specific hate cards because they don't have enough applications, and I'm no longer horrified of the Zoo matchup.

Game 2 Played the same game I did Game 1, chump blocking when necessary and 1-2ing his creatures when possible, then outdrawing him with Matrons and Ringleaders.

2-0
1-0

Round 2 - Merfolk
Game 1- Mulled to 5. Lost

Sided in Tinkerer, Sharpshooter, 2 Pyros. Took out 2 Weirdings, Earwig, Instigator.

Game 2 he mulled to 5. I won.

Game 3 - He dumped out 2 Silvergill Adepts and a Lord. I pitched a card to Pyrokinesis them all away, and he scooped soon thereafter.

2-1
2-0

Round 3 - AggroLoam

Game 1 - I got greedy and kept a 1 land opening hand. Whoops!

I brought in some GY hate.

Game 2- I was able to kill off his creatures, Port his 1 land in play, and eventually killed him by Vialing in a Faerie Macabre and flying over his Tarmagoyf. That's right. Flying.

Game 3 - This one just never got going for me, and I picked up my first loss.

Looking back on this match I realize I never sided in my Earwig Squads. Now, I really wish I had. They can strip the Loams out of his deck and the GY hate can hit the ones in the GY. Seems good.

1-2
2-1

Round 4 - TES
Game 1- He mulls on the draw, and kills me turn 1.

In come all the Earwigs and 2 Chalices.

Game 2- I aggonized over my hand that was awesome, except that it had an Instigator instead of a Lackey. I chose to keep it, since it had 2 mountains. Well, long story short Instigator got through on turn 3, then he went off for about 10 goblins, and it occured to me that I hadn't sided in my Pyros or Sharpshooters. No worries though, as my Instigator connecting had put me at a hug advantage. I managed to kill off his horde through attacking and then killed off him.

Game 3- I actually decided not to side in my Pyrokenisis this game because the Chalices and Earwig squads minimized my chances of casting them for free anyway. My opponent went off, but not for an impressive amount, and I was once again staring down about 10 goblin tokens. I was able to get some damage through on the attack, and with a Warchief in play Prowled in 2 Earwig Squads. I looked through his deck and removed literally every last threat he had. The 6th card I grabbed was a Xantid Swarm, just to deny him a blocker. He was unable to come back from that blow.

2-1
3-1

Round 5 - Aggro Bant

Game 1- Much like playing Zoo, the trick in this matchup is to drag it out until your board position overwhelms them. It takes a little while, but is entirely winnable. Anywho, I won. Tarmagoyf will only get you so far.

I sided in a Vexing Shusher and some Pyros

Game 2- I played a turn 2 Vial to get around Daze. When I have 2 one drops in hand I'll just bash them through, but with only the one I felt I needed to be more certain of getting it in play. He got out a War Monk and 2 Goyfs and was bashing away. I managed to bring out a SGC and a Chieftain to start double-blocking some 3/4 goyfs. His life total kept on rising with the WarMonk, and it was 25 to 5 when I finally gempalmed the rhino off the battlefield. Shortly thereafter I Ringleadered for 3 more goblins and my opponent scooped.

2-0
4-1

Top 8 - Zoo

Game 1- He kept a 1 land hand for a Taiga/Nacatl opening turn. I Wasted the Taiga and killed his Nacatl and he never saw another permanent.

Game 2 - He got off to a quick start and I stalled. Jitte and Lavamancer hit the board. Scoop.

Game 3- He just kept drawing creatures. So many big, beefy creatures. I stalled out, despite being on the play. Steppe Lynxes and Goyfs beat me down. The end.

Thoughts-
I should have boarded Earwig Squad in more often.
Needle still seems good in a format filled with Survival.
Perish isn't necessary for beating decks with Tarmagoyf.
The end.

GoboLord

10-05-2010, 04:01 AM

@Gobbo: I'd do -1 Chalice, and -1 Nature's Claim, and maybe -1 Perish, depending on how good your Zoo MU is.
I really think Needle is the way to go now.

Why do you think the Green splash is worth now?

I thought of:
-1 Chalice
-2 Pyrokinesis

As I said: my meta is very U, G and W, thus Perish is probably the card I bring in most often and Kinesis isn't that good against deck that run FoW/Daze.
Green splash: I don't know what "now" is refering to, but if you are aiming at changes in meta game I can easily explain that. It appears that the meta in western germany isn't influenced by changes in America's meta at all. I guess most of us just have 2-4 decks that they will stick to. e.g. the presence of Reanimator in the first half of the year wasn't nearly as high as it was in America. The same is true now for Vengevival, 4c Landstill and Merfolk - they don't appear more often than any other deck.
Thus, G splash provides me with MD answers for whatever nasty artifact may come in g1 and gives me the possibilty to answer a wide range of cards.
Plus, I f*** like Nature's claim against combo :-D. Here's an anectode:
I was testing against that combo-guy-friend of mine (thus, he knows that I bring in Nature's Claim - he's prepared!). Still in the curse of evening I got him several times just with Claim!
Against DDFT: They need a draw after they built their DD piles - oftentimes it's Sensei's Divining Top. So here we go: He has SDT in play, creates some storm, plays DD. I play Claim on SDT in response. Well... after 15 minutes of thinking and looking up DD piles online he realizes that he can't win cause he can't draw into the combo.
Against TES: I go forst and have Chalice @ 0 and Lackey on turn 1. On his turn 2 he goes of with Rituals, Rites and Tendrils @ 20. In response on the last Tendrils-copy I play Nature's Claim on Chalice, gain 4 life.

First I thought such situations weren't all to common, but they really are! Nature's Claim is a nice trick against combo, even when they are prepared!

@ jrw: I'll read you repot soon and add some comments here.

ScatmanX

10-05-2010, 01:38 PM

GoboLord

10-05-2010, 02:50 PM

@Gobbo: Yes, thats exactly what I meant. Thanks.

With that SB (with the +3 Needle), how would you side against Vengevival?
I've been doing quite a lot of testing trying to figure out what's the best approach, but I never tested Nature's Claim.
Against what other decks do you bring it in?

My SB looks like this now

3 Chalice otV
3 Leyline otV
3 Perish
3 Pithing Needle
3 Nature's Claim

Against Vengevival I'd bring in 3 Nature's Claim and 3 Needle. Leyline could be an option, but I guess Pithing needle is better if you have Nature's claim. All of them can deel with Survival of the Fittest (which we have to shut down), but Needle can be used to shut down other discard outlets like Mongrell and Aquamoebae while Claim deals with Survival.

I bring it in against against:

- decks with Survival
- decks with Jitte
- any combo-deck
- Staxx
- Enchantress

ScatmanX

10-05-2010, 03:43 PM

3 Chalice otV
3 Leyline otV
3 Perish
3 Pithing Needle
3 Nature's Claim

I'm going to try -1 Perish, -1 CotV,-3Leyline, +3 Knesis (cannot leave home without them), +2 Extirpate.

Against Vengevival I'm playtesting removing 4 Lackey on the draw, to see what happens. Lackey here never connects on the draw, and by their turn 2, they'll have 1-2 blockers already. With Survival on they'll have blockers with flash for the cost of G. It just didn't seemed worth it during testing.
What do you guys think?

Gun4Hire

10-05-2010, 11:14 PM

Just curious but whats peoples opinions of Krosan Grip vs Nature's Claim?

N. Claim is alot faster than Krosan but can be countered.

Has anyone tried both?

GoboLord

10-06-2010, 02:54 AM

Just curious but whats peoples opinions of Krosan Grip vs Nature's Claim?

N. Claim is alot faster than Krosan but can be countered.

Has anyone tried both?

I tried both. I even wrote a report of a tournament on which I used Claim (see page 256).
Someone asked the same question, here is my answer:

@ FoulQ
Afaik there hasn't been much discussion in this thread.
I boarded Nature's Claim in against 4 decks: Landstill, Dreadstill, Bant Survival and MUC. All of those deck run counters. Therefore Krosan Grip would have been saver. After all I came to use it against Landstill and Bant Survival, both times it wasn't countered. There are two possibilities:

1. They didnt have counters on hand
2. They didnt expect their Enchantments to be destroyed with only 1 mana, so they didnt play it with counter back-up.

I think I was lucky that day, because it wasn't countered, but on the other hand, many decks against whoich I would use it (Mono Black, Staxx) can't counter it. So Claim is better in those MUs because it doesnt slow you down. Second you dont run into situation where you have the card on hand, one taiga in play and you taiga is being destroyed before you draw your 3rd land. It's easier to keep you away from the 3rd mana than form one.

I cant say which one is better, it depends on the meta. Looking at the decks I faced Grip would have been saver, but I think it was the surprise factor that got them here.

HelloHero

10-09-2010, 05:21 PM

Hi everyone,
I'm a new member to The Source, great place by the way, and I'm looking for some feedback on my current Mono-Red Goblins deck. I've posted it up on other forums for comments/suggestions and I was hoping I could get some good advice here as well. Here it is:
Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
14 Mountain

Gobbos:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Stingscourger
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vexing Shusher (Not 100% on)
1 Goblin Tinkerer

I've been getting mixed feedback on running 3 Chieftains. Personally, I like that they're in my deck but other people have suggested that Mogg War Marshal would be better overall. Chieftain or MWM what's the better choice? Why?
I'm considering 2 Warren Instigator but unsure on what to drop. I feel the deck is fairly solid on it's own, but I don't think the Instigators would hurt much. I'm thinking -1 SGC, -1 Sharp/Chieftain +2 Warren. Any thoughts?
Unclear on SB as of now. Looking to run something for a general meta.
Thanks for any comments/suggestions.

bakofried

10-09-2010, 07:37 PM

Getting the same answer here. Cut 'em for MWM's, or Instigators, but if you add Instigators you may need more red sources.

Psyqo

10-09-2010, 08:43 PM

I think 3 Stingscourgers is too many. I like having 1 as a maindeck silver-bullet target from a Matron, or 0 if I don't see any Emrakul in the meta.

Cutting 2 of those for 2 War Marshals would improve matchups like Zoo and Merfolk.

bakofried

10-09-2010, 08:45 PM

Stingscourger is good in the Zoo and Folk MU.

HelloHero

10-09-2010, 10:15 PM

Getting the same answer here. Cut 'em for MWM's, or Instigators, but if you add Instigators you may need more red sources.

bakofried. would mind if I asked to see what you're running for your Gobbos build? You seem to know what you're talking about when it comes to the little green men and I'm curious to see what you're running.
As for MWM, I'll have to compare and see really. I don't come across a lot of Zoo. Merfolk yes, but Zoo hardly and I feel that's why I'm not 100% sold on him. I'll have do some more testing.
To make the cut I could do:
-2 chief -1 sharp or -1 SGC, -1 Chieftain, -1 Sting or -2 chief, -1 SGC. Idk which be more optimal.

About Sting; I think Sting is a definite 2-3 of if running Mono Red it helps get lackey through in the early game. Any B/R list can easily get away with one Sting MD but that's only because of Wort and Warren Weirding.

Anymore feedback would be great.

lotriderm

10-09-2010, 11:12 PM

I think 7,8 removal is necessary for goblins, regardless of the splash or mono. I personally will keep the Stingscourgers as a 3 of and might cut 1 SCG and 1 Chieftain for 2 of something that isn't double RR (MWM is a good choice or whatever you feel is necessary).

bakofried

10-10-2010, 11:31 AM

Right now I'm digging this list:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37615
Right now though, I'm unaware of what splash would be good for the meta. Some say green, some say black, some say both. What's everyone else's opinion?
And the first config. is probably best - just don't cut SGC. I would never go below 3, I love 'em too much.

kinda

10-10-2010, 04:53 PM

I started out 4-1 at the jupiter games tournament and ended up a dissapointing 4-3.

Lands:
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
4 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire

Gobbos:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Warren Instigator

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Disenchant
2 Bloodmoon

The bolts should have been ethersworn canonists but I didn't feel like buying them...bad call. The 3rd siege gang should be something else.

Round 1: New Horizons
Nothing special...ghostly prison was a pain in game two but it worked out.
2-0 (1-0)

Round 2: New Horizons splash red for firespout
Game 2 I got crushed by firespout but brought in burrenton forge-tender which won me game 3.
2-1 (2-0)

Round 3: The vengevine deck that won the tournament
He has an early survival both games...g2 was much closer but qasali pridemage took out my relic and piledriver only got him to 2.
0-2 (2-1)

Round 4: Elves with food chain
Game 1 he has two poor messengers...game 2 I played two ringleaders neither of which found any goblins (seriously)...g3 I had a good start and disenchant.
2-1 (3-1)

Round 5: Affinity
I don't remember too much...gempalm was very good...as was disenchant.
2-1 (4-1)

Alright so now I just need to win the next round to draw into t8!!!

Round 6: TES
To add insult too injury g1 I mull to 5 and don't have a t1 or 2 play...he adnauseams to 2 life on turn 2, tanks for a bit then flips over a ponder to bring him to 1. He then has to pass the turn...and wins t3. G2 he goes off t1 with protection.
0-2 (4-2)

Round 7: A dedicated food chain deck
He goes off turn 3 both games and counters my disenchant.
0-2 (4-3)

HelloHero

10-11-2010, 12:54 AM

Avatara

10-11-2010, 06:54 AM

Have you considered Flame Kin Zealot in your build? Personally, I always liked R/W Goblins.
The only thing I would've done was -2 Warren -2 Mire +1 Sting +1 Gempalm +2 Port

When Flame-Kin Zealot enters the battlefield, creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain haste until end of turn.

You can't be serious...

GoboLord

10-11-2010, 06:55 AM

Hey guys,

I've been on a tournament yesterday, here's my report:

My List:

//Lands [22]
8 Waste / Port
4 Mountain
2 Taiga, 2 Badlands
6 Fetchlands

//Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Matron, Warchief, Ringleader, 2 SGC

//Flex-Slots [12]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm
2 Stingscourger
3 MWM
1 Tin-Street Hooligan (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-7353766/Tin-Street-Hooligan-w-Jitte.jpg.html)

//Sideboard [15]
3 Leyline otV
3 Chalice otV
3 Pithing Needle
3 Perish
3 Nature's Claim

Here we go:

Round 1
Toby with DDFT

Game 1: I beat him down to 7, he goes off on turn 4.
IN: 3 Needle, 3 Chalice, 3 Nature's Claim
OUT: 3 Gempalm, 2 Stingscourger, 1 Bolt, 3 MWM

Game 2: My opening hand contains: Fetchland, Wasteland, Lackey, Matron, Natrure's Claim, Needle, Chalice. Turn 1: Taiga, Lackey, Chalice @ 0. He plays Underground Sea and Duress @ Needle. I draw Needle next turn, play Wasteland @ U-Sea and Needle @ Polluted Delta. Lackey into Matron @ Tin-Street Hooligan. He plays Swamp, Sensei's Divining Top. On My turn I draw a Mountain, play TSH @ Top (to not let him search for lands in upkeep. Basicly those 3 beat him down, he doesnt find any more lands.

Game 3: I mull down to 5 and keeep a fast hand (Mountain, Lackey, 2 Piledriver and Pithing Needle). He's on the play an Duress finds Needle again. My on turn 3 I have Lackey and 2 Piledriver, Lackey brings in SGC, he's down to 5 Life already - thus leaving him exactly 1 turn to go off, while he can't cast DD because of my SGC's ability. He decides to play Lim-Dul's Vault at EOT but the top 10 cards show him that he could play Tendrils for 18 dmg "only".

1-0-0

Round 2
Tim with UWr Countertop (eventually top 8)

Game 1: I win fast without seeing more than Brainstorm, Island, Plains, Mountain and Spell Snare.

IN: 3 Pithing Needle
OUT: 2 Stingscourger, 1 TSH

Game 2: He delays me with 3 Swords to Plowshares, turns the match over with Vedalken Shakles and wins with Elspeth. At this time he controls CB + Top, so my Needle won't sting neither Elspeth nor Shakles.

IN: 1 TSH, 3 Nature's Claim
OUT: 3 Lightning Bolt, 1 MWM

Me: "I guess this MU could be in your favor..."
Tim: "Why? Because of Humility?"
Me (didn't know that he has it): "Yeah, and I don't like Shakles and Firespout too much"
Tim: "Well, then I suppose you dont' run G spalsh for Grips...lucky me!"

Game 3: I start with Mountain, Lackey, Go. He has Lightning Bolt. I play two Lackeys, he has StoP for one. The other one brings in Matron (@ TSH) next turn. He plays Shakles on turn 3. I have TSH, which he counters. Next turn Nature's Claim gets my Lackey back at EOT who features a SGC on the follwing turn. My Vial was on 4 meanwhile and a chain of 3 Ringleaders take him and his 2nd Elspeth down in the curse of the game.

Tim: "Fuck, I hate G splash in Goblins"
I don't ;-)

2-0-0

Round 3
Kai with Rb Goblins

Game 1: We know each other, and both of us know that we are having a mirror match. He goes first with Wasteland, Vial, Go. I have Mountain, Lackey, Go with Bolt backup. He sets his Vial on 1, fetches on Badlands, go. I attack, having my Mountain in the one hand and Lightning Bolt waiting in the other...he does nothing, so SGC comes into play. I waste his Badlands. HisVial does nothing until it's on 3, at that point it doesnt stop my lackey-featured army anymore.

IN: nothing
OUT: nothing

Game 2: He's on the play again so I need to handle his first turn Lackey. Therefore I mull down to 5 finding my own. He starts with Mountain....go. His Lightning Bolt kills my Lackey EOT. He play Piledriver. I play Piledriver. He misses a landdrop and passes the turn. I cycle Gempalm Incinerator to kill his Pile... then we need a judge for a translation of my "Gemmepaume Incinerateur" because Kai doesn't believe me that it counts Goblins in play.
Well after all I end this match with losing only 1 life in both games (because of my fetchland).

3-0-0

Pause: I'm joking that I already had my obligatory combo MU for today, so I won't face them anymore. My theory is that I was a bit lucky in round 1 and that this lucky will help me to top-8 that day. Let's see...

Round 4
Micheal with DDFT (eventually top 8)

Game 1: Mountain, Lackey, Go. Piledriver on turn 2 beats him down to 14 on turn 3 (along with Lackey who brings in SGC). He has one turn left to kill me and looks quite unpleased with his draw. Ponder --> Shuffle, Draw. Play fetchland. Brainstorm --> fetch. Ponder --> Shuffle, Draw. Lotus Petal, Dark Rit, Cabal Rit. LED, LED, Infernal Tutor (crack LEDs for 6B) --> Ill Gotten Gains, Dark Rit, Cabal Rit, Infernal Tutor --> Tendrils @ 24.

look @ round 1 for SB

Game 2: I start with Port, Vial, Chalice @ 0. He plays Duress, finds nothing. I draw Chalice, play Chalice @ 1. Piledriver and Warchief come into play via Vial an take him down.

Game 3: I keep a risky but fast hand: Mountain, Lackey, 2 Piledrivers, Warchief, SGC, Pithing Needle. I thought that he might take mulligans to hit my CHalice of the Void on the play and that this might delay his combo 1 turn. It worked out: His Duress make my decision what to play on turn 1 much easier...he stares at my hand after discarding Needle. He does some math and finds out that "OMG, this hand kills on turn 3!!!", Me: "Who's playing the combo-deck here??". Actually I was ready to kill on turn 4, because his Orim's Chant Delayed my "combo" 1 turn. On his turn 4 he thinks for more than 20 minutes, knowing that this would be his last turn. The whole match was up to him from the beginning, cause I could do anything but being fast. After 25 minutes he concedes. "Who's playing the combo-deck here?" :-D

4-0-0

Round 5
Jens with Rbg Goblins (eventually top 8)

Game 1: He's a friend of Kai (round 3) so we know each other, and we know that we are playing the mirrormatch...again. Actually his list was ver strange and colorful, but he he's way better in Goblins than Kai was. Nevertheless I win game 1 (on the draw) because he could handle my Lackey.

Game 2: This game ends 40 minutes and 30 Goblins later after he his Kiki-Jiki-SGC-Earwig Squad-Ringleader-Wort-package took me down because I ran out of removal.

Game 3: We have 5 extra-turns left when we started game 3. So both of us take mulligan to probably find the turn-3-kill. I reveal my hand (mulligan 5) with 2 Mountain, 2 Lightning Bolt and Gempalm Incinerator, he reveals his (mulligan 6) with 2 Mountain, 1 Pyrokinesis and 3 Gemplams. Draw.

4-0-1

Round 6
Norbert with Aggro Loam (eventually top 8)

To keep this short and simple: He has 5 Countryside Crushers and 5 Devastating Dreams in the curse of 3 games. This one ended 1-2.

4-1-1

Round 7
Alex with Zoo

Game 1: I go first with Mountain, Vial. He fetches on Taiga, plays Nacatl. I play an land and my second Vial. He plays Plateau and Pridemage, in play Ligthtning Bolt @ Nacatl, bring in Lackey via Vial. On my turn I bring in MWM via Vial, have Gemaplm incinerator @ Pridemage attack with Lackey into Matron into Ringleader. His lonely Kirdapes on turn 3 can't do anything against my army featured my by Ringleader and MWM.

While boarding I ask him how for long he's been playing Zoo now. His answer was like: "Well...for the first time today, it's kinda fun.". I don't want to sound arrogant here but: I eat Zoo decks with unexperienced pilots alive :-D, that's what I tested this MU for.

IN: 3 Perish
OUT: 3 Piledriver

Game 2: I keep a hand with 2 Wastelands, Fetchland, Stingscourger, Matron, Ringleader - slow but efficient if he doesnt have nonbasics. He goes first again: Arid Mesa --> Taiga, Nacatl, go. I play Wasteland @ Taiga. He plays Horizon Canopy, attacks. Canopy tells me that he doesnt have any other land on his hand, thus I play Wasteland @ his 2nd green land. He plays Basic Forest on turn 5, stil beating me his 1/1 kitty. He never finds a second land, while I have Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm etc. He concedes and reveals his hand: Path to Exile, 2 Fireblast, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Grim Lavamancer. Lucky me that he didn't fetch on basic Mountain on turn 1 :-D.

5-1-1

1st: Norbert (Aggro Loam), round 6
2nd: GoboLord (Goblins Rbg)
3rd: Jens (Goblins Rbg), round 5

Jens lost to Norbert, on round 7, myopponent-score was slightly better than his.

Conclusion:

+ I bet combo twice, although I must admit I was a bit lucky
+ I didn't do any noticable playing-mistakes
+ I <3 Tin-Street Hooligan
+ I walked home with 4 DCI Phyrexian Dreadnought
+ I had not a single easy MU (although my opponent's skill helped me to win some of them)

- Needle wasn't efficient that day, didn't draw it too often
- should have conceded earlier on round 5
- I missed Pyrokinesis

HelloHero

10-11-2010, 01:31 PM

@Avatara: I'm cereal.

Guess it's a bad idea... hahah

FoulQ

10-11-2010, 03:56 PM

@ Pithing Needle: I know it looks good in theory but I have found the strategy of "answering" their "answers" as ineffective. I'm talking about the "answer" vs "question" theory that is presented in some magic articles. Example, dragon stompy is a deck basically of questions.

Instead of trying to sideboard in cards that are basically "answers-to-answers" (at least for goblins) like pithing needle, I prefer to just barrage them with questions. Sure, some cards like krosan grip are good enough to justify their SB space, but generally I will say this is a failing strategy.

I usually regret using SB space on pithing needle, at least for this deck.

GoboLord

10-11-2010, 04:31 PM

Neuad

10-11-2010, 04:52 PM

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [U] Taiga
6 [ON] Mountain (3)
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [UL] Harmonic Convergence

Here is my current list, I'm very happy with the mainboard, but going into Nashville my SB needs a little help. Those 3 Harmonic Convergences are meta'd for lots of enchantress but need to be something else.

I'm thinking Extripate. . my big fear matchup is UGMadness but I haven't done alot of testing against it.

GoboLord

10-11-2010, 05:39 PM

When your list is Rbg, then Goblin Tinkerer < Tin-Street Hooligan. If you want to stay G (what I find a good idea in an unknown meta) you can replace convergence for Krosan Grip or Nature's Claim.

pandaman

10-12-2010, 01:52 AM

A first time poster in this thread. I was reading an article that came up on a Google search about the Kiki-Jiki/Sharpshooter/Lightning Crafter/Skirk Prospector combos, and came across a reference to Goblin Wizard. My use of the search engine in this thread failed to turn up any discussion, so I thought I'd ask, has anyone tried/tested this card in Vial Goblins? It looks like a slower Vial (unless you drop it off Lackey on 2nd turn) and an StP stick (unless you have red mana open to protect it) but could be useful to foil StP attempts on relevant creatures and could act as a 2nd vial if you didn't have one already. It gets hit by Ringleader too, and would be able to use its ability immediately if either Warchief or Chieftain was in play. Would it be too slow/overcosted to be of use, even as a Matron target?

Can any Goblin aficionados shed some light?

FoulQ

10-12-2010, 03:16 PM

@ Pithing Needle as mana denial: It has potential but I'd rather not lower my goblin count for that strategy, especially with Zen fetches now.

Goblin Wizard isn't good enough.

It's unfortunate but the search function has broken ever since the forum switch some months ago. Only new stuff after the switch comes up.

Neuad

10-12-2010, 09:45 PM

When your list is Rbg, then Goblin Tinkerer < Tin-Street Hooligan. If you want to stay G (what I find a good idea in an unknown meta) you can replace convergence for Krosan Grip or Nature's Claim.

I like Tinkerer better because it can be vialed in and destroy an artifact for R, it can destroy an artifact with 2 Warchiefs in play etc etc. I know these are situational but still with my luck those are the only times I'd want to destroy an artifact.

bakofried

10-14-2010, 02:24 AM

Anyone still testing Ratchet Bomb? I'd like some opinions on that.

Tacosnape

10-14-2010, 10:45 AM

Ratchet Bomb's been average. It's nice as an out to a ton of cards like Plague and Humility. It's actually fair against Belcher and Storm Combo for hitting ETW or the 0-Drop artifacts. And against Zoo or random UGW Goyf/Knight aggro, I'll happily cut down to 1 Gempalm to run it.

The downside to it is that it's competing with other SB slots which may be better. I don't go anywhere without yard hate(4) and Pyrokinesis(4) at the moment, meaning I have to be somehow magically convinced it's a better inclusion than Mindbreak Trap(4) or Pithing Needle(3), as well as being better than the Blood Moons I'm not running. Depending on the metagame, it could or could not be.

bakofried

10-14-2010, 11:48 AM

Which MU's are you boarding in Kinesis for, to value it so high?

ScatmanX

10-14-2010, 01:49 PM

Which MU's are you boarding in Kinesis for, to value it so high?

I bring it in against: Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Elves, and sometimes Band agroo and Vengevival.
*And Ichorid and Belcher.

Tacosnape

10-15-2010, 09:41 AM

Which MU's are you boarding in Kinesis for, to value it so high?

Ones with creatures.

Goblin mirrors, Merfolk, Zoo, Affinity, All Survival variants, Belcher, TES, Some Sui Black variants, Dragon Stompy, Any Elf combo or Elf aggro deck, that bizarre Red Burn deck that randomly top 2'd, etc.

Vandalize

10-16-2010, 07:01 PM

Sup guys, all I have to say is that mono-R goblins rapes, period.

This is the list I've been running for a while, and it has won me SEVERAL matches:

Lands [19]

4x Wasteland
15x Mountain

Creatures [33]

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Stingscourger
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Goblin Chieftain
1x Lightning Crafter

Spells [8]

4x AEther Vial
4x Lightning Bolt

Sideboard [15]

4x Pyrokinesis
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Blood Moon
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

My sideboard seems a little ugly, but it has been very effective against the most common matchups: Merfolks, Dredge, Elves, Loam decks.
Well, I have this list IRL, so there's no armageddon stax, ANT, and those survival of the fittest variants laying arround (these decks are really expensive to build).

That's why I have no response for Survival of the Fittest, Ghostly Prison, Engineered Plague (well, any good goblin player can play arround this, duh) or whatever.
My sideboard used to run 4x Red Elemental Blast, but I think that Thorn of Amethyst is enough to make any blue player get pissed off.

Don't tell me to splash black, please. Earwig Squad and those Autie's dudes are elite pieces of CRAP.

HelloHero

10-16-2010, 08:49 PM

bakofried

10-16-2010, 10:12 PM

And you don't splash black for Earwig Squad. You do it for Warren Wierding + SB options (which may include Earwig Squad, but no one's saying splash solely for him)

Nidd

10-17-2010, 07:33 PM

19 lands is quite low, I wouldn't want to go below 22. You really do want to hit your landdrops.

Also, that list needs more Rishadan Port. And more MWM.

Vandalize

10-17-2010, 09:33 PM

Yeah, the land count is low, I'll probably make it 16x mountain and 4x wasteland

I don't like Rishadan Ports. Running 8 colorless lands makes your turn 1 lackey drop harder...
That's pretty much debatable, but I think mono-R goblins without them are kind of faster.

Lightning Crafter is now in sideboard, playing along with Sharpshooter (I call them Snipe Team for no reason)

Dropped 1 Crafter and 1 Goblin Chieftain for 1 MWM and 1 mountain.

Perhaps the deck looks more solid now.

bakofried

10-17-2010, 09:53 PM

Still missing the point. You *need* to hit those land-drops. Goblins is a lot more mana-hungry than most people realize.

Arew

10-17-2010, 10:31 PM

Hey all, I'm fairly new to Legacy, started with Dredge to get into the format, and working on a Goblins list to put together.

2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
2 Warren Weirding
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

#60

I haven't had the chance to playtest this yet, just figured I would see what you all thought about it. I'm not sure about the Stingscourger/Mogg War Marshall split, I think I need to find another slot for a third Goblin Chieftan to fight Engineered Plague's.

jrw1985

10-18-2010, 03:03 AM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-10-17&end_date=2010-10-17&event_type=SCLO

Well, VengevineSurvival is THE deck at the moment. 5 of the decks in the top 16 run the combo. Moreso, 4 of the Top 8 ran the combo!!! Sick, sick, sick. Good news is, 2 Gobos made top 16. Too bad they couldn't crack the 8 though.

So, forget about everything else for a moment, and think about this: How does Goblins beat Vengevine/Survival?

Vengevine/Survival is so infuriating because it isn't even a deck! It's a combo that fits seamlessly into (seemingly) any creature based deck. As a result it was present in a GW shell that won the tournament...
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35428

... in a GU build that ran the standard disruption package...
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35427

... with an Iona recursion stategy (that was otherwise almost identical to the winning GW build)...
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35425

... as a combo with Fauna Shaman also running disruption...
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35423

... and as a Stompy deck that was basically monogreen with a white splash (that also managed to run Iona as well).
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35416

Aside from Survival/Vengevine, 4 of the above 5 decks contain Umezawa's Jitte. This is clearly because the decks are reduced to weak Aggro decks without the Survival/Vengevine, so they need the Jitte to keep them viable in combat. Jitte... I hate Jitte...

The combo works in decks where there are three distinct possible paths to victory.
1. Survival into Vengevine and Rootwallas to swarm.
2. Survival into combo creatures for the lock or combo win(Loyal Retainers/Iona, Necrotic Ooze/Phyrexian Devouerer/Triskellion)
3. Play a bunch of cheap creatures, attach a Jitte, and take control of the board.

This flexibility makes the combo a beast in any deck it's in, and the fact that it is based around the hardest-to-hate-on permanent (enchantment) makes it resilient as all hell to boot.

An upside to this combo's popularity is that instead of Sideboarding against an archetype we can instead side against specific cards. SB cards can be discussed specifically on their merits against Survival/Vengevine. Considering this, I feel like my SB can be tailored more to this matchup, an exchange of power over flexibility.

For GY hate I've been advocating Faerie Macabre and Tormod's Crypt. Now I'm not so sure. Trygon Predator and Qasali Pridemage make Crypt, Relic, and Leyline suck. Stifle makes Faerie and Crypt miss. Faerie also isn't strong enough to wipe out all the graveyard, which could be lethal. Leyline does seem a lot better in this MU than the other free GY haters, but these decks have been running too many answers to it. It seems that Extirpate is the big winner these days, and I'll be adjusting my SB accordingly.

Perish seems stronger than ever right now. In matches where they don't get Survival online it is as clean a board sweep as any.

K-Grip is bolstered too, as it can knock out Survival and Jitte. Pithing Needle is still weak to artifact removal, which these decks have been packing in bundles.

TukTuk Scrapper seems a lot better than Tinkerer in this matchup. You can't rely on having Haste when there's an active Jitte on the board, and we've seen that Jitte is becoming ubiquitous to Survival.

Another good way to counter Jitte is to run Jittes of your own. I may start playtesting with 2 MD Jittes.

But I need more advice from those of you who have playtested againt these decks. In my playtesting I found that the UG build...
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34852
...which I had (until now) considered the archetypal Survival/Vengevine deck, could soundly beat Goblins if it countered a Lackey/Vial T1, or if it got the Survival engine running, or if it started controlling the board with Jitte. And if it managed to do multiples of these I really had no chance, it felt. The games I won were pretty clearly games I had just drawn a better hand (aka multiple Lackeys and Vials), games where I managed to gain board position (which is what Goblins are supposed to do), and games where I controlled the manabase (aka he was on one forest at the end, thanks to Wastes). From my experience the Achilles heel of the combo in the mana base it requires. Killing off Noble Heirarches really hampers the deck, as does Wasting the Cradles and Duals.

Those are my thoughts. What are yours?

bakofried

10-18-2010, 03:18 AM

Pithing Needle on Survival. Mad beatz. Unfortunately that statement lacks any testing whatsoever. Have you considered Hooligan/Scrapper MD to deal with Jitte?

ScatmanX

10-18-2010, 11:07 AM

I've been having fairly success with GobboLord's list, with a little tweak.

Tin-Street Hooligan MD is great, and 3 Needles + 3 Nature's Claim SB is awesome, since they answers all their problematic cards. I even have Perish and Extirpate, but not really sure I need to board them in.

Not really sure whether to take out Lackey on the Draw also. I now that they don't have removal, but Lackey will almost never connect, and be the worst topdeck we can have against them, so I'm still pondering on bringing in the gravehate + Perish, if I'm on the Draw.

Vandalize

10-18-2010, 11:54 AM

VengevineSurvival isn't really a tough matchup. A Tormod's Crypt in response might be enough to slow them down.
My personal opinion about goblins is that they're a fast aggro deck, not an aggro-control. My strategy is simply putting 2 or 3 piledrivers online and eating your opponent with honey-mustard sauce (that's the main reason I don't like Rishadan Port and black splashing for WW).
Uh, perhaps Earwig Squad can be a really good disrupt to Survival Decks, taking out some important cards like Iona and those pesky Vengevines. Uh, I don't like splashing black for no reason at all... Perhaps it's just epic to win with a monoR list.
Goblins have enough disrupt for their acceleration (Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise are really easy to kill), and they usually need 4 or 5 turns to put four flying vengevines rocking (hmm, that's enough time to disrupt the combo or even killing your opponent)

About the Umezawa's Jitte topic... Well, that card is stupidly good against goblins, so maybe a Goblin Tinkerer MD should be good enough to deal with it.

Nidd

10-18-2010, 12:57 PM

Dark Ritual

10-18-2010, 01:09 PM

GoboLord

10-18-2010, 01:32 PM

Yeah against zoo goblins is playing the role of control until it can stabilize and land some big threats like SGC, ringleader, and some number of other goblins. Zoo, however, is a bad MU for goblins and always will be because their burn spells kill our entire deck. Unless they get stupid and chain lightning a dude of ours when we have RR open so we can burn their cat, nacatl, or what have you.

I really like the SB option of earwig squad against VV survival. Remove 3 VV's? GG's? Also it has a ginormous body being a 5/3 for 2B. And if they play white for retainers combo you probably remove 2 VV's and the loyal retainers because without retainers they can hardly cheat/hardcast Iona into play at 6WWW while retainers can block if they cast it.

Earwig Squad is an option...
...BUT...
I doubt we will be able to cast it at the right time. Let's say he get's prowled in turn 4...I fear they might be able to start their surviva- chain in response and save like 2-3 Vengevines. The same is true for Inoa/Retainers. Still, if they play both combos we'll be able to rip either one of them.

I'd like to hear some results of testing on that topic.

What do you guys think of Engineered Explosives in board (not only against Vengevival of course). In this MU it hits
@ 1: Hierarch, Rootwalla, Mother of Runes
@ 2: Goyfs, Survival and (depending on list) Jitte/Pridemage/Mongrel/Aquamoeba.
Problems: it doesn't do anything against Vengevines and it's slow.

ScatmanX

10-18-2010, 02:46 PM

What do you guys think of Engineered Explosives in board (not only against Vengevival of course). In this MU it hits
@ 1: Hierarch, Rootwalla, Mother of Runes
@ 2: Goyfs, Survival and (depending on list) Jitte/Pridemage/Mongrel/Aquamoeba.
Problems: it doesn't do anything against Vengevines and it's slow.

I came to the conclusion that E.E., aswell as Ratchet Bomb, is too slow. Against Vengevine, we need answers Turn1 or 2, and E.E. requires to mmuch mana to work. We MAY be able to set them back 2-3 turns, but seting ourselves back the same time in the process...
E.E is nice agains Folk/Loam/Engineered Plague though, but not needed IMO.

@Squad: Very good card, but not at stopping Vengevines.

Neuad

10-18-2010, 09:52 PM

Went down to Nashville this weekend. Survival everywhere as everyone has heard but I managed to dodge that bullet and got janky shit decks I wasn't prepared for, and then my deck decided it was a good time to give me every land in it and nothing useful so I scrubed out.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
5 [ON] Mountain (3)
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Swamp (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [ZEN] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

was my final list going in. Hindsight the thorns would be mindbreak traps, other then that I was happy.

I didn't take too detailed of notes but here's my best shot.

Round1 vs standard affinity 2-0 in my favor. Game1 he started out with a massive army of 0/1's and 1/1's so I had to go slow and eventually got a wort out and was able to just recur weirding over and over.

No siding

Game2 I got a siege gang out with him at 7 and 4 mana untapped.

Round2 vs Mono Black Control 2-0 my favor

Game1 same deal, was able to keep recurring weirding and other fun things and just over run him.

Game2 he sided in Extripates and EPlagues. . .I didn't side anything. I get an early wort in play and he extripates weirding. I get beats in with a piledriver and wort through an EPlague. He kills a ringleader and extripates him, then drops a 2nd EPlague and an Arena and passes. I get him to 2 with a wort, drop a matron that dies but gets me a crafter as a just incase. . . pass. . .he drops a 3rd EPlague and I almost scoop but look at him and smile. . .take my turn and pass immedietly and he dies to Arena.

Round3 vs Team America

Deck shits out on me and he finds every removal he needs to get rid of blockers so I can't rebuild.

Round4 vs Erayo.

Game1 never seen this deck before and he gets the lock on my and I dont see a vial.

Game2 I get 2 vials up and running and he cant keep me locked out.

Game3 I get 3 vials up and running but need a 3rd mana to matron for tinkerer to get rid of his needle and over run his ass. . .never see the 3rd land.

Round5 vs Mono Blue Control

Both games he draws every counter and shackle he needs. I draw lands.

Round6 vs Belcher

Giant belch game1

Game2 he shows me his hand and that he's going goblins, he just needs the mana. I get a vial to 3 and he goes off. . .EOT I vial in my MD Sharpshooter. . .he scoops.

Game3 he drops 10 goblins turn1 and I cant do anything.

Round7 vs Mono Blue Merfolk

Game1 he is able to keep Piledriver out of the equation which ruins me and I lose.

Game2 he isn't able to keep 2 Piledrivers out of play and he loses.

Game3 he stops drivers and I lose.

Round8 Bye

My notes and memories get fuzzier as the day goes on because I stop caring after X-2 as I can no longer win money so I'm just waiting for a friend to finish as I cheer him on. Thankfully he finished 10th so the trip was worth it.

Vandalize

10-19-2010, 05:07 PM

Merfolks is usually a favorable matchup if you run 10x responses to creatures (3x Sting, 3x Gempalm and 4x Bolts or WW). Perhaps the only problem is facing that FoW hitting your Vial turn 1 or some annoying Jitte's laying on the field.

HAHAHA, Belcher is a really weird matchup, it's almost pure luck... If they combo turn 1, your dead (unless you have 2x Pyrokinesis o_o). If you put a Thorn of Amethyst or a Pyrostatic Pillar (yeah, i've seen some decks with this card on sideboard, and it was really interesting) they usually concede.

Zoo is always a tough matchup (as every single player posted here before) <- this is a matchup where Lightning Bolt shines bright (hitting Lavamancers, Nacatls, Apes or whatever).

Neuad

10-19-2010, 05:50 PM

Something I'm considering is dropping the MD Tinkerer for another removal. . .but I'm not decided. . .I also want to test Goblin Wizard for myself to see how bad it is.

And yeah game3 he got a turn2 Jitte on a CC. . .nothing I could do to remove the creature so I just got kept off anything.

jrw1985

10-20-2010, 05:31 PM

JonBarber

10-20-2010, 05:57 PM

I've been considering how to change my SB to adjust for the increase in Vengevine/Survival. The Problem is that there are just too many solutions! Perish, Pithing Needle, GY hate, K-Grip, and none of them are sure-fire cure-alls.
Do I want to board in 3 Perish, 3 GY Extirpate, 3 Needle? Then take out what? 4 Vials and 5 Goblins? At what point does the deck become de-saturated and has too few gobos post board? Any ideas?

That's exactly why the deck is such an issue for the meta. Its so flexible and there's so much diverse hate, everyone ends up diluting their deck to sb vs it and end up losing the vengevines flexibilty

jrw1985

10-20-2010, 08:27 PM

That's exactly why the deck is such an issue for the meta. Its so flexible and there's so much diverse hate, everyone ends up diluting their deck to sb vs it and end up losing the vengevines flexibilty

So, what is the ideal Goblin percentage? I think half the deck (30 cards) should be goblins still post sideboard. Then Ringleader will still average 2 goblins drawn. Right now I run 22 land, 4 vials, 34 Gobos. Leaving the Vials in I could only take 4 gobs out. I love those utility goblins for just this reason. Earwig Squad is so much better in practice than on paper.

Vandalize

10-20-2010, 10:57 PM

Hey guys!

I've just tested another decklists (with no lightning bolt, damn!), with a little green splash.
It seems to be beating Zoo quite often (just played 25 Zoos and won 18 matches).

Here's the list:

Lands [20]

4x Wasteland
10x Mountain
2x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills

Creatures [36]

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Stingscourger
3x Mogg War Marshal
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Tin Street Hooligan
1x Goblin Sharpshooter (added this maindeck because I fear Belcher and TES are becoming more popular than ever)

Others [4]

4x AEther Vial

Sideboard [15]

4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pyrokinesis (jesus, this card is freaking awsome)
3x Krosan Grip
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Lightning Crafter

Pyrokinesis seems to be clearing the battlefield so often! Taking out a Nacatl and a Grim Lavamancer in just 1 shot is really huge.
Still it's not as effective as Perish, but it's a good start for letting your Lackey and Piledriver reach your opponent's lifepoints (which, sometimes, is just enough). Stingscourger is a beast also: bouncing Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Grim Lavamancer, Noble Hierarch is so annoying that I decided to run a four of.

Krosan Grip and Tormod's Crypt are really shining against Vengevival decklists (perhaps the most popular list nowdays?).
People say: Oh my god! Vengevival can put four flying Vengevines on turn 3!!! Well, goblins can get a 9/2 piledriver on turn 3, which one is more scary?

Neuad

10-21-2010, 12:53 AM

Granted I only played 2 games against UGMadness, extirpate is my favorite answer. I side in 3 exirpates, 3 perishes against them. . .taking out veng turns them into another midrange mostly shit agro deck we can easily race or just swarm. Or Perish their entire board and drive piles through their face.

cruzron

10-21-2010, 02:03 AM

GoboLord

10-21-2010, 03:26 AM

What do you usually take out for those 6 cards?

I agree with Neuad here: Extirpate is the key.
The good thing about Vengevival is that they don't have too many creatures in play if you take out Vengevines. For this reason I think we should take out removal (although that might be strange since we are up against an aggro deck).

My current list (prepared for Vengevival, Goblins, merfolk and Zoo as decks defining the local meta)

// Lands [22]
4 Fetches
4 Badlands
7 Mountain
7 Mana-Denial

//Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC

//Flex-Slots [12]
4 Lightning Bolts
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
3 MWM
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Extirpate
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Against Vengevival
IN: 4 Extirpate, 2 Perish
OUT: Stingscourger, Goblin Chieftain, 4 Lightning Bolt

What do you think? Extirpate can be seen as an removal or as an additional piece of mana-denial. I noticed that most Vengevival decks aren't too scary if you keep them on only 2 G. Therefore we should burn their Hierarchs and Waste their Savannah/Tropical Island and maybe use extirpate on either one of them.

Hof

10-21-2010, 03:56 AM

@All
Hi, new Goblin player here. I have been playing the deck on and off since the beginning of Legacy.

@Vandalize
I wouldn't play 4 Stingscourger, since they're mostly dead against a few decks. Spending 1R and losing a card to bounce Grim Lavamancer or Noble Hiearch doesn't sound too impressive either, but the opening game is important, and I could be wrong.
You maindeck Creature list is missing 1 card.

@GoboLord
Extirpate is clearly good against Vengevines and Life from the Loam decks, but the Survival decks i know usually have backup plans, such as Phyrexian Devourer combo.
Also, don't you feel that 8 black mana sources are too few to reliably cast your 7 black sideboard cards? I would probably take out a Port for a basic Swamp, and then I would still not feel safe.

GoboLord

10-21-2010, 05:24 AM

@GoboLord
Extirpate is clearly good against Vengevines and Life from the Loam decks, but the Survival decks i know usually have backup plans, such as Phyrexian Devourer combo.
Also, don't you feel that 8 black mana sources are too few to reliably cast your 7 black sideboard cards? I would probably take out a Port for a basic Swamp, and then I would still not feel safe.

Every deck has a backup-plan. It's not that you could completely defuse any deck with Extirpate. I think 8 B sources are enough, cause in most cases you board either Extirpate OR Perish. Plus: most of the decks I would use Extirpate and Perish against don't run Wastelands, so there is no need for a basic swamp. My MD is mono R therefore any non-R mana source is not needed (unless it's manadenial) and I would not cut mana-denial for basic lands that I don't need in MD.

Hof

10-21-2010, 06:58 AM

Every deck has a backup-plan. It's not that you could completely defuse any deck with Extirpate. I think 8 B sources are enough, cause in most cases you board either Extirpate OR Perish. Plus: most of the decks I would use Extirpate and Perish against don't run Wastelands, so there is no need for a basic swamp. My MD is mono R therefore any non-R mana source is not needed (unless it's manadenial) and I would not cut mana-denial for basic lands that I don't need in MD.

Either you need the mana or you don't need it, whether its before or after sideboarding is irrelevant, unless you have land in your sideboard, I think? You said in your example above, that you would sideboard in 4 Extirpate, 2 Perish against Vengevival. Vengevival runs Wasteland, so often they can simply waste your single black source before activating Survival. The problem with allowing Survival to become active is that then they have access to both their main plan and any backup plan they might have, instantly. In other words, if you manage to Extirpate their Vengevines, they can just survival up Ooze, or whatever, and win. I don't see Extirpate as relevant in any of the other matchups you listed as defining your local meta (Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo). Using Extirpate as mana denial sounds interesting, but maybe Pithing Needle would serve that role better, since you can name a forest fetchland for about the same effect, and Needle can also shut down Survival itself, which might be the superior plan to begin with.

GoboLord

10-21-2010, 08:47 AM

Either you need the mana or you don't need it, whether its before or after sideboarding is irrelevant, unless you have land in your sideboard, I think?
I don't get what you say here, could you rephrase it maybe?

You said in your example above, that you would sideboard in 4 Extirpate, 2 Perish against Vengevival. Vengevival runs Wasteland, so often they can simply waste your single black source before activating Survival. The problem with allowing Survival to become active is that then they have access to both their main plan and any backup plan they might have, instantly. In other words, if you manage to Extirpate their Vengevines, they can just survival up Ooze, or whatever, and win. I don't see Extirpate as relevant in any of the other matchups you listed as defining your local meta (Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo). Using Extirpate as mana denial sounds interesting, but maybe Pithing Needle would serve that role better, since you can name a forest fetchland for about the same effect, and Needle can also shut down Survival itself, which might be the superior plan to begin with.

I don't think that Wastelands on B sources will be a big problem:
(1) they will probably aim at my Rishadan Ports first (unless they have Survival in play)
(2) I run fetchlands myself, so I have 4 B sources that are virtually Wasteland-Prove
(3) you can wait with dropping Badlands until you are ready to cast Extirpate
(4) with 8 B sources standing against 4 Wastelands it's unlikely to see your deck being shut off from B

I didn't say that I find Extirpate relevant or even useful against the meta-defining decks. I said that most of the decks I would use it against don't run Wastelands: any Storm-combo, slow control-decks, Enchantress, Dredge. Vengevival and Lands do run Wastelands, and that's where Extirpate could be less consistant.

I tried Needle as manadenial and unfortunately it's not good.
(1) shutting down Survival won't work for long cause they run Pridemages and Trygon Predators
(2) I really like using Needle as mana-denial, but in most MU it seems rather useless after turn 3 cause most decks are mana-fixed by then. WIth the diversity of Fetchlands they are able to just shuffle the "needled" fetchlands away in coop. with Brainstorm/Diving Top

jrw1985

10-21-2010, 04:04 PM

On beating Survival---
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20323_Ideas_Unbound_The_Survival_of_the_Fittest_Problem_And_How_to_Fight_It.html
The author is of the opinion that fighting Survival is the key to beating the deck, not fighting the Graveyard. I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm bummed that the only answer that anyone can seem to come up with is Needle. Needle is so susceptible to artifact hate and counterspells that it isn't an effective enough answer. Thank God it's flexible in other MUs at least. I still think GY hate is still necessary for this MU because Needle is so weak.

Possible SB for my BR Goblins

3 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Earwig Squad
1 Tinkerer
1 Sharpshooter

I'm trying out Extirpates these days because it's the only GY hate card that can be reliable against Survival. The others have a tendency to get countered or Stifled when you need them. Since Needle is such a weak answer the Extirpates should still be sided in.

Extirpate and Needle should slow down the Survival assault, but at the cost of siding out 4 Vials and 2 Goblins.

Vandalize

10-21-2010, 04:56 PM

The main reason I wouldn't run less than 3 Stingscourgers is that it's a great card by itself. It's usually lets your lackey reach your opponents in early game (if they just put a blocker) and they can bounce scary pumped Tarmogoyfs or whatever creature is frightening you. Many people say: "uh, they bounce and die because you can't pay echo".. that's true, but they do their job quite effectively.

Hof

10-21-2010, 05:32 PM

I don't get what you say here, could you rephrase it maybe?
Just that if you are going to be siding in and playing 6 black cards in an important matchup that run Wasteland and Stifle, the decks manabase should be able to support that.
I'm not saying that your deck doesn't, but I have my doubts.

I don't think that Wastelands on B sources will be a big problem:
(1) they will probably aim at my Rishadan Ports first (unless they have Survival in play)
(2) I run fetchlands myself, so I have 4 B sources that are virtually Wasteland-Prove
(3) you can wait with dropping Badlands until you are ready to cast Extirpate
(4) with 8 B sources standing against 4 Wastelands it's unlikely to see your deck being shut off from B
True, the fetchlands are Wasteland-proof, but you also have to draw the fetchland and draw the black card, and not use the fetchland until you need it. The last part is hard, because you need mana to play red spells. What if you have mountain, port, and fetchland, no black spells, and you need 3 mana to play a chief, and opponent has Wasteland? Do you fetch the basic mountain or the dual?

I tried Needle as manadenial and unfortunately it's not good.
OK, fair enough.
If Extirpate works as 'soft' mana denial, perhaps it could be maindecked as a two-of? I might just try that..

TheSleeper

10-21-2010, 08:04 PM

HedleyKow

10-22-2010, 02:07 AM

GoboLord

10-22-2010, 04:13 AM

I've been testing a list for the past 2 weeks very close to GobboLord's MD, except in Green. Differences being:
-1 Bolt, +1 Tin-Street Hooligan, -1 Dual Land, +1 Forest

What do people who are splashing for one colour think of a non-red basic? Keen to hear people's opinions.

Pros: can't be Waste'd, works under Moon effects
Cons: doesn't produce red (sometimes relevant to get your 2nd R)

This is totally up to three things:

(1) How many Wastelands/Ports do you have? - The more colorless lands you run, the less additional non-red sources you want. I guess non-R basics are just fine when you have not more than 6 manadenial lands. Still, I'm a fan of manadenial therefore I' never cut manadenial for non-R basics.

(2) How many cards do you have that require RR to cast? - Everyone has 4 Warchief and 2 SGC MD. If you want to add Chieftain, Warren Instigator or even Kiki-Jiki you propbably don't want non-R basicslands.

(3) Do you need the splash color for cards in MD? - e.g. My List is mono R MD and uses B splash for SB-cards (Extirpate, Perish)

Hof

10-22-2010, 08:52 AM

It also depends on, generally speaking, how heavy the splash is, in particular it depends on whether or not you need to use the splash color more than once in a typical game. If you need the splash color to 'stick around' after you've used it once, the basic land might be worth it.

And it depends on whether or not most of your splash color cards are creatures than can be 'played' with either Vial or Lackey (or both).

Zörg

10-22-2010, 04:42 PM

jrw1985

10-22-2010, 07:26 PM

To the above list: i like it, but if you must have a piece of equipment I'd suggest Umezawa's Jitte. You can throw that on anything and it's awesome, not just the Sharpshooter.

Hof

10-23-2010, 04:21 PM

Hello Boys and Girls! Greetings from Sweden =D

I joined just for this particular thread =P Im currently building my first legacy deck: A MonoRed Goblin Deck.

Main:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Warren Instigator
1 Stingscourger

4 Aether Vial
1 Basilisk Collar

14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Goblin King
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mindbreak trap
1 Pithing Needle
2 Goblin Tinkerer

So, opinions?
Help is appreciated =)

Hej Zörg

Your deck looks fine to me - I like your sideboard especially. In the maindeck I would cut 1-2 Rishadan Port for mountains, since the requirement of cards like Warren Instigator is 15-16 red sources. I might cut the slow Sharpshooter for one more Chieftain, and I would replace the Kiki-Jiki with something else. I think 3 goblins of casting cost 5 is the maximum number for the deck (actually, the correct number) and those 3 should all be Siege-Gang. I don't understand what Basilisk Collar is doing in your deck - maybe its a metagame choice, but like jrw1985 said, if you must play 1 equipment, Jitte is better.

Ozymandias

10-24-2010, 03:49 AM

jrw1985

10-24-2010, 04:51 AM

Monthly Legacy tournament was tonight. Here's how it went.

R/B Goblins List

Creature (30)
4x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Stingscourger
2x Warren Instigator

Sorcery (2)
2x Warren Weirding

Land (22)
1x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
6x Mountain
3x Rishadan Port
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Artifact (6)
4x AEther Vial

Sideboard (15)
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Earwig Squad
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

Round 1 - BGW
Game 1
He was playing a lot of Sinkholes, Innocent Blood, Smallpox, but no creatures, and no Pernicious Deeds. He was running Life from the Loam, but no really mean lands or land discard effects. I overran him with Goblins eventually.

I sided in 3 Extirpates for Weirdings and Stingscourger.

Game 2
He played a turn 3 Smallpox which killed my Lackey and Mountain, but I was able to Extirpate the Life from the Loam he discarded (since I made sure to leave mana open to to so). Looking through his deck the only threats he had were Nether Spirit, Gigapede, and man lands. Many many land destruction cards later, the match was mine.
2-0
1-0

Round 2 - UG Survival/Vengevine
Game 1
He never drew a Survival, and I just played out a horde and ran him over. I don't recall if he hit a Jitte, but I took this one fairly easy. That's what happens when you play a more consistent aggro deck.

I sided in 3 Needles, 3 Extirpates, Tinkerer and Sharpshooter for 4 Vials (too slow this MU) 3 Piledrivers (just gonna get chumped) and a Stingscourger (because the deck is based around discarding creatures, duh).

Game 2
He had a fast start and a Survival. I soon ate a facefull of Vengevine. Dead me.

Game 3
I played a Needle on Survival, and another Needle on Survival after he played Trygon Predator. He started attacking with the Trygon and killed my Needles. I Gempalmed his Trygon. He went to activate his Survivals and I Extirpated his Vengevines. I then had to play through a Jitte and took a close game.
2-1
2-0

Round 3 BRU Faeries
Game 1
I Rishadan Port-ed him out of this game. He cast a Firespout at one point but I had made sure to hang onto a Matron for Ringleader and just refilled my board.

Sided in 2 Earwig Squads for 2 Weirdings. I had put him on 4 Color Control since I had seen him remove Jace to Fow and never saw a Faerie game 1.

Game 2
I got him down to 8, but then he Firespouted and played a Bitterblossom and a Jitte and took control of the board.

I sided in a Tinkerer and a Sharpshooter for Stingscourger and... Gempalm? Had I realized what I was playing against I would have brought in the Sharpshooter for G2, which could have won the game for me.

Game 3
I Wasted his 3rd land and he never saw a 4th. I also resolved an Earwig Squad and stripped the Jittes from his deck. Makes it kinda easy. He did play 2 Bitterblossoms which did as much damage to him as I did, but without Jitte he had no chance of gaining board control. I just kept playing Goblins and attacking, and he just had to keep blocking.
2-1
3-0

Round 4 - UG Survival/Vengevine
Game 1
This one was cool. I was on the draw. He played a Forest. I played a Mountain, Vial. He played Forest, Wild Mongrel. I played Badlands, Weirding. He played Tropical Island, Trygon Predator. I Wasted the Tropical and Vialed in a Stingscourger, bouncing the Trygon. He didn't hit another land, and I Vialed in a Warchief, cast a Chieftain, and soon thereafter Vialed in a Seige-Gang Commander. Win.

Sided same as before.

Game 2
I had the Extirpate in my opening hand, but I got greedy and cast a Warren Instigator which locked out my Badland. He didn't have a Survival in play at the time, so I thought it was safe. Mistake. He took advantage of the situation and blew up on me with a couple Vengevines off an Aquamoeba. Punted.

Game 3
I fetched and kept a Swamp open as I developed my board. He resolved Survival and filled his GY with Vengevines over the end of my turn and the main of his. He knew full well that he was walking into an Extirpate, but there was nothing he could do about it. Survival can't NOT try to go off every time someone keeps one black open against them. Anyway, in response to the 2nd Rootwalla I Extirpated his Vines, cleaned the last one out of his deck, and beat him down.

2-1
4-0

Drew into Top 8.

Top 8 - UB Merfolk
Game 1
I win!

Sided out Weirdings for Pyrokinesis, Instigators for Tinkerer and Sharpshooter.

Game 2
Great back and forth. For a long time I was fighting through an Engineered Plague, and even managed to clear his board with a Pyrokinesis. I got him down to 4 life, then he resolved a 2nd EPlague. Scoop.

Game 3
A lot like G2, but he resolved an E Plague again and I was put too far behind. Oh well.

What I would have done differently-
It is time to run Tuktuk Scrapper instead of Tinkerer. Tinkerer had it's day in the sun blowing up Tops, but these days it needs to kill Jitte. Tuktuk is more reliable and less vulnerable to Jitte, so its clearly the better choice.
I should have sided in Earwig Squads against UB Merfolk. They can survive E Plague and still bash, which would have been huge.
I haven't used the Chalice of the Void in my SB for a long time. I'm just not hitting the combo matchups. My friend that was at the tourney with me was also playing Goblins. He had 0 combo hate in his SB. He wound up with 3 combo matches. He won them all.
I wish I was running 4 Piledrivers instead of 3. I pulled one to make room for Mogg War Marshalls to help with the Zoo MU. Well, Zoo is going nowhere fast, but Merfolk is going strong. That 4th Piledriver is probably pretty good.

Thoughts-
Extirpate is awesome. It fucks Vengevine up, and Life from the Loam. Play Extirpate.
Needle is cool.
Basic lands are awesome.

After the tourney I watched Brock Lesnar get his ass kicked by Cain Velasquez. As I wrote this I saw Roger Huerta get destroyed by Eddie Alvarez. A bad day for my Minnesota fighters, but a pretty fun day for me.

Amon Amarth

10-24-2010, 05:02 AM

Grats! How was the the basic Swamp working out for you? Is it that important to have un-Wasteable black mana? I imagine it would be good against Merfolk and VV Survival.

Hof

10-24-2010, 08:39 AM

@jrw1985
Thanks for the report. Your deck looks good.
Some thoughts: You might want to up the Chieftain count to 3, at least after SB, since they really are very good at fighting Engineered Plague.
Tuktuk Scrapper might be better against Jitte, but I'm not convinced that he is better than Tinkerer overall. You still need to blow up Tops, opposing Vials, and sometimes Factories.
In your opinion, could Extirpate be maindecket as a 2-of? It seems to be doing a lot of good for the deck, and you did side it in for 3 out of 5 macthes.

GoboLord

10-24-2010, 11:20 AM

Grats for your result! I have some quoestions for you.

(1) Why don't you run Perish in SB? That's quite unusual for Goblins with B splash.
(2) How did you find Warren Instigator on this particular tourney (in those MUs you had)?
(3) Do you think Jitte is that much a problem that you should pack TukTuk Scrapper in board just for that? Don't you think you can just win against Jitte without artifact removal (like you did several times on that tourney)?

TheSleeper

10-24-2010, 07:42 PM

UFC SPOILER

DUDE! Really.. did you have to mention this OT information?

I've been avoiding all results/news media in lieu of watching a replay tonight with my mates. I thought going onto a Magic forum would be safe..

T_T

ScatmanX

10-24-2010, 08:27 PM

Went to a Legacy and Pauper tournament yesterday, playing Goblins for legacy, and spring tide for pauper.
Finished in 3rd.
list:

5 [9E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Badlands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Taiga (only have 1)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
2 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [MOR] Warren Weirding
3 [AT] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 3 [US] Planar Void
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim

Game 1:
Enchantress.
G1, he has a turn 2 Elephant Grass+Argothian Enchantress. I have 2 Ports out, and keep landlocking him and attacking for 2 per turn. When he is at 11, I attack with my hord, with 1 Piledriver. He blocks my Driver and lock me out next turn. Have I waited some more turns, I'd have won that...
G2, I have a t2 and t3 Piledrivers, and take him down to 7. He plays Sterling Grove, and Moat. I never see a Siege-Gang, neither a 2nd Nature's Claim. I had 2 Lightning Bolts in my hand.
0-1

Pauper game: I rock.

Game 3:
Stax.
G1, I keep a 7 with 2 lands, Vial and Lackey. He starts with t1 Chalice, T2 Trinisphere, T3 Waste...
G2, I mull to 5, finding a Lackey. He connects, and gets me an Siege-Gang. He can't recover.
G3, I mull to 5 again, and so does him. I keep 3 lands, Warchief and Matron. He opens with Chalice again. 3 turns later I have Warchief, and then a 2nd one. He drops a 5/3 guy, that spells cost 1 more, and equip Jitte on him. When he attacks, I block, and Gempalm his guy away. Some turns later I manage to draw goblins, and win.
1-1

Pauper game: I rock.

Game 5:
Rock.
He opens with Seize, and take my vial. Next turn he Seizes away my Rinlgeader, and I drop an Piledriver. He Touraches me, and play an Dark Confidant. I Gempalm, and pass. He Touraches me again, leaving me with nothing. I manage to lay a few beats, but he Vindicates my lands, and Waste the rest, while landing Goyf and Relicary.
G2, he starts slower, and I try to landlock him, but it seems like his deck has 20Wastelands... I get him to 1 life, when he drops an E.Plague and a Relicary, leaving me with a Piledriver. I draw and cast Warchief, and win.
G3, He waste me to oblivion, and cast 2 E.Plague, while I had no Nature's Claim, and no Perish, and Goyf and Relicary finish me off.
1-2
Pauper game: I rock.

Game 7:
UG Madness.
G1 I connect a Lackey, getting me only Ringleader, getting me somethings. He cast Survival with mana open for Rootwala. I stard gathering dudes. He uses survival sometimes. I eventually attack with 4 tokens, Lackey, Matron and Piledriver, leaving Siege-gang untapped, with 4 lands and Gempalm in hand. He gets 4 Vengevines, and 2 Rootwallas, taking only 1, and 4 from siege-gang, going to 3. His Vengevines can't kill me, so I win next turn.
G2 he plays Forest. I play Lackey. He plays Mongrael. I play needle, and he thinks. Needle resolves, I Bolt his dude, and connect Lackey. From there, it was not difficult.
2-2

With my 3-0 from Pauper, I get to top8.

Top 8
Dredge, and I know it, so I promptly win the Die roll.
G1 I lead with Lackey. Can't remember what he does, but Lackey connects, and he dies 2 turns later, to Warchief Matron and Piledriver + Bolt in hand.
G2 I mull, then mull again. Then I call my luck charm, and draw my 5 cards. 2 lands, Planar Void, Vial and Matron. I draw a 2nd Planar Void in my turn, and waste his land. He mulled also, casts Nature's Claim, and is obligated to cast 2 Narcomoebas and a Thug, while I Port his City of Brass and ping him. I have 2 cards now, and he knows one of them is a Matron, so he Cabal Therapys me. In response, I Knesis his dudes, and he is left with only that one that gets +0/+4, and me with a Piledriver, Void, and 2 Vials in play.
I draw a shitload of lands, and he finds a 3rd one, so he Breakthroug's, and Claim my Void next turn. He dredges once or twice, while I find a Siege-Gang, and ramp Vial to 5. Eot I vial SGC, and he was at 10. Sac everything eot+in my turn, and win =].

Top 4
Zoo.
G1 he opens with Taiga+Nacatl. I Waste. He drops Savahna and Loam Lion. I Waste. He has no more lands. I get an lackey, that trades with the 1/1 Loam Lion. I cast MWM. He gets a land, and attacks with the 2/2 Nacatl, that dies, and leave me with a token. I manage to lay down some goblins, and eventually overrun him.
G2 I don't quite remember, but he has a T2 Library. I manage to have lethal on the board, while at 6 life. he double Bolts me, and I die.
G3, I start with Vial, and him with Nacatl. I pass, and he drops a 2nd Nacatl. I Perish, then Waste his red source, while Matroning a Ringleader, that sucks. He gets Loam Lion, and the 1/1 mage, and both die to my Knesis. I kill a bunch of dudes, but my other Ringleader reveals nothing. He eventually gets a Relicary and a Goyf, and my chump blockers all die. My last 2 cards are 2 lands, and I die.

All in all, I really liked the deck. Should have won G1 against Enchantress, and should have won against Zoo, but was unlucky as hell (never saw a Lightning Bolt...)
I will find the 2nd Taiga, that will come in for the 4th Badlands, and maybe cut a land, since I was flooded quite often, and add a 3rd MWM.
Lightning Bolts were awesome, and I pretend to keep them MD. they are way better in a meta full of Vengevines/Zoo/Merfolk/Goblins. The finals were Zoo x Folk, and I should have won that...

HelloHero

10-24-2010, 11:17 PM

Here's something I've been messing with as of late, Mono Red Goblins. I think I got it finalized but I wanted some feedback on the overall deck and SB.
Lands
4 Rishadon Port
4 Wasteland
14 Mountain

Gobbos
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain

4 Aether Vial
2 Lightning Bolt

SB
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyrotastic Pillar
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscurger
1 Goblin King (or Goblin Chieftain or Boartusk)

Thanks for any feedback.

jrw1985

10-25-2010, 12:18 AM

Grats! How was the the basic Swamp working out for you? Is it that important to have un-Wasteable black mana? I imagine it would be good against Merfolk and VV Survival.

Having black mana available is Super-Duper necessary. It sucks losing the flexibilty of having a Dual instead, but given the prevalence of Wasteland you simply need a reliable black mana source. Given that the deck already runs Wastes and Ports it is no problem finding room for one Swamp. And running 4 Bloodstained Mire makes it easy to fetch.

@jrw1985
Some thoughts: You might want to up the Chieftain count to 3, at least after SB, since they really are very good at fighting Engineered Plague.
Tuktuk Scrapper might be better against Jitte, but I'm not convinced that he is better than Tinkerer overall. You still need to blow up Tops, opposing Vials, and sometimes Factories.
In your opinion, could Extirpate be maindecket as a 2-of? It seems to be doing a lot of good for the deck, and you did side it in for 3 out of 5 macthes.

I did originally run 3 Chieftains and 4 Piledrivers, but I shaved down to make room for 2 Mogg War Marshalls. That was unnecessary. I'm going back to 3 and 4, respectively. Chieftain is built in Engineered Plague resistance. He nullifies Plague while still providing Haste. Seems good.

Scrapper seems just as useful against Vial as Tinkerer. Scrapper still works when it's cheated into play via a Lackey and it doesn't need a turn/mana/haste to activate. And killing Jitte won't kill it. I'm not too worried about needing to kill Factories because we still got the Wastelands.

Extirpate could easily be mainboarded these days. Sometimes it will win G1, sometimes it will be of minor usefulness but lets you know exactly what you're up against, and sometimes it will be completely useless. Considering that only 6 of the top 16 decks at the most recent SCG 5K relied on Graveyard recursion strategies it doesn't seem too necessary to mainboard it. However, when you consider that a solid half of the Top 8 relied on GY recursion it seems a little more appealing. After all, those decks are the ones you'll want to be stealing games from.

Grats for your result! I have some quoestions for you.

(1) Why don't you run Perish in SB? That's quite unusual for Goblins with B splash.
(2) How did you find Warren Instigator on this particular tourney (in those MUs you had)?
(3) Do you think Jitte is that much a problem that you should pack TukTuk Scrapper in board just for that? Don't you think you can just win against Jitte without artifact removal (like you did several times on that tourney)?

1- I actually have quite a few reasons for not playing Perish. Like many Goblins players I was initially frustrated by the Zoo MU, and Perish was a seductive choice for the SB. But once I started playing with it several problems occured to me. First off, it's not a surefire 2 for one. Many, many times I found myself getting beaten down by a lone Tarmagoyf or Knight of the Reliquary. Perish just became a more expensive, un-tutorable Weirding when it could only 1 for 1. Perish also only affects Green creatures, so it was a dead draw against Zoo when their board consisted of Lavamancer and Kird Ape. Pyrokinesis has incredible speed and flexibility and can wipe the board against literally any aggro MU (aka Merfolk), which Perish clearly cannot, making Pyro more deserving of a SB slot. Then there's the question that most haunts me when I'm sideboarding: What is my deck trying to do? Is my deck trying to play a defensive game that controls my opponent's creatures with board sweeps, then picks at their life? No. I'm trying to build an overwhelming horde that knocks them out of the game as quickly as possible. Perish doesn't really fit into that stategy. Additionally, Perish isn't a Goblin, so it thins the deck. I would never side in Perish against Vengevine/Survival simply because I would have too many non-goblins in my deck at that point, and it would become much more difficult to actually kill my opponent. Wow... That's a lotta reasons, isn't it? To surmise-
Perish is-
Too narrow.
Not as fast or flexible as Pyrokinesis.
Not a goblin.
Not useful enough to side in against the rising star of the format, Survival/Vengevine.
Not part of the gameplan.

2 - Instigator is pretty good. First of all, he's terrifying once he's in play. Your opponent will have to have an answer or things will be over quickly. But where he really shines is in your opening 7. I usually mull to a Vial or Lackey. Without them there just aren't many keepable opening hands. Instigator helps out by making opening hands keepable as well. He's not as good as Vial or Lackey, but when you're on the play, and if you have removal, he can still get through a surprising amount. There are also MUs where he's better than Vial (combo), and MUs where you need to board Vial out so Instigator's ability becomes more crusial (Surv/Vines). Mostly though, he helps you cheat more goblins into play. That's generally a good thing.

3. Jitte on the board is NOT an auto-lose situation, but it makes things really tough. A well timed Jitte can just decimate our board and turn a game around. My Game 2 against Faeries I controlled the match and had him down to 5 life. 5! Then he got a Jitte on board. Since I had no removal he was able to come back from the brink and won the match. This also happens with Surv/Vines. Jitte is the only thing that keeps that deck afloat without Survival. Since Jitte is so effective at killing the goblins that give tinkerer haste (or just killing tinkerer himself before he comes online) then it needs to be dealt with in an effective manner. Jitte is so dangerous because it is an answer to our answers, AKA it kills the cards that are supposed to kill it. So yes, it can be beaten without artifact hate, but it can really put a beating on you if you don't have effective hate for it. Scrapper is the best option in a RB goblin deck. And when you compare Scrapper to Tinkerer, which is going to do better for you? A 2 drop that takes a turn and a mana to activate, then dies, or a 4 drop that activates upon entry (remember he can be cheated in) that doesn't die and instead sticks around to chump or pump a Piledriver?

DUDE! Really.. did you have to mention this OT information?

I've been avoiding all results/news media in lieu of watching a replay tonight with my mates. I thought going onto a Magic forum would be safe..

T_T

Hah! Sorry man. Mea Culpa.

Ozymandias

10-25-2010, 03:32 AM

Took 3rd with the list I posted above today. went 4-0-2 in the swiss, not dropping a game, and lost in the Semis to LED Vengevine.

P-AiR

10-25-2010, 01:21 PM

Took Gobolord's decklist to a local 14-man tournament, really wanted to try RBG goblins. Swapped out the needles for pyrokinesis:

Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa

Core [26]
4 AEther vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Other [12]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm
2 Stingscourger
3 MWM
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

Sideboard [15]
3 Leyline otV
3 Chalice otV
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
3 Nature's Claim

Round 1 vs. Bant Control
Game 1 - Had an opening hand of 2 wasteland, 1 port, 1 vial, and a few goblins. Decided to keep it despite not having any red mana. Turns out he was manascrewed to begin with so my land package desecrated his game.
Game 2 - He forced my Lackey but allowed the vial to drop. He couldn't stop my army from then on.

1-0

Round 2 vs. RB Goblins
I actually played with a member from mtgthesource here and it was definitely refreshing to share goblin tactics with someone as knowledgeable as he.
Game 1 - He wins the roll and drops a lackey on turn 1 and later he brings in a friend in SGC. I didn't have any bolts and only held a vial and goblins that costed 3 or more.
Game 2 - Sided in the pyrokinesis and it looked like it was paying off. I allow his T1 lackey to connect to bring in a few guys. At the end of his turn, I pyro'ed his battlefield and dropped a few goblins myself. However, he responded with his own pyrokinesis. He drew the ringleaders and I couldn't stop his army.

1-1

Round 3 vs. Boros Burn
Game 1 - First turn goblin guide reveals a rishadan port. Not useful in this matchup but it's never a bad thing to receive a free land draw at the expense of 2 life =/. I drew a bolt and used it in response to the guide's next attack which scored me another land. He chose to burn my life instead of my army. His goblin guide and Keldon Marauder could not contain the horde.
Game 2 - I assume he learned from his mistake and burned my creatures to clear the way for steppe lynx which eventually kills me with him playing and using 3 fetchlands.
Game 3 - He kept burning my lackeys and did not take notice of how big Piledriver could become. I do love the warchief - MWM - piledriver interaction here. For very little mana, you can have a very explosive and lethal army at your disposal.

2-1

Round 4 vs. Mono Black Control
Game 1 - He wins the roll - dark ritual -> hypnotic specter. !@#%. I was hoping for a race by dropping a MWM to start my army up but on turn 2 he hymn to tourachs my hand + specter to discard the majority of my hand. He then drops a nyxthalid and eventually tombstalker to finish the game.
Game 2 - Pretty much like the first game instead of hypnotic specter, he duressed on first turn and then hymned on the second. I drew into a ringleader which I quickly play to refill my hand and with the combination of a few aether vials I was able to stabilize (at 6 life) the board with SGC, MWM, and sac'ing the tokens towards his tombstalkers and hypnotic specter. Still, he had a formidable army in 2 nantuko shades and 2 nyxthalids. He couldn't touch me late game because multiple ringleaders kept calling in goblins to the cause. Eventually, I overwhelmed him to his disbelief.
Game 3 - He duressed and inquisioned but those were his main discards in his opening hand. He couldn't stop me from building up my board and eventually dies.

3-1

Top 4 decks after the rounds:
1) Enchantress
2) Burn
3) RB Goblins
4) My Goblins

Decided to split so we could call it the day early but the enchantress player, as nice as he was and after being told his chances of winning it all, decided to play on.

Round 1 vs. Enchantress
Game 1 - I tried to attack him early with a T1 lackey but my army was halted with elephant grass and an early solitary confinement. Before this point, I did miss warren weirding in MD because of the shrouded argothian enchantress which proved to be the engine for this game early on. Eventually, he found sigil and ended the game.

Sided in 3 Chalice of the Void / 3 Nature's claim / for 3 Lightning Bolts / 2 Stingscourger / 1 Gempalm incinerator.

Game 2 - Early game, he sacs his sterling grove to find solitary confinement to prevent my army from doing any harm. On my turn I dropped a few goblins and then claimed his confinement which ended the game for him.

Game 3 - I mull to 6 but could not get an answer that I sided in. T1 he drops a wild growth. I draw into chalice of the void. I cast CotV for 1 and he still casted his elephant grasses and wild growths to draw cards since he had an enchantress out. This definitely slowed him down quite a bit and I went in for the kill - 18 damage on the first swing (led by piledriver of course) and 20 on the turn after. Talk about overkill.

Round 2 - The other Goblin player won his matchup but we both decided to split the prize instead of playing it out. I wasn't too eager to test my luck.

Positives
- Piledrivers and Ringleaders: they were giving me comeback wins all day.
- Nature's claim and Chalice of the void: they work. Claim allows you to squeeze in a few more goblins in the early game to kill the opponent faster.
- MWM and its interaction with Warchief, Piledriver, and SGC.

Negatives
- I did not get to test the deck against any of the fish or zoo players that were there and there were no survival players attended.
- Leyline of the void - never sided this in - really question its usefulness since survival would be able to Kgrip or pridemage the leyline. Maybe I'll try the needles in place of it next time.

jrw1985

10-25-2010, 01:33 PM

Running the following tomorrow:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

3 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Auntie's Hovel
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Chieftain/Earwig Squad (leaning towards Squad right now.)

I'm wondering how to bring in 10 cards vs. Vengevine Survival, and thinking that might be too many. Other matchups are fairly simple (Cut removal or Siege-Gang/Driver for Therapy or More removal.) I'm also considering a MD Goblin Sharpshooter over Marshal, but I really want more Marshals and would even add in a third/fourth if I had more room. I think Shooter is probably just too slow.

I wouldn't bring in 10 non-goblins against anything. Since the deck wins by building up overwhelming card advantage through drawing goblins off of ringleader and Matron it doesn't make sense to side too many goblins out. You wind up losing win conditions and allowing your opponent more time to get back in the game.

Took 3rd with the list I posted above today. went 4-0-2 in the swiss, not dropping a game, and lost in the Semis to LED Vengevine.

Extirpate.

Ozymandias

10-25-2010, 03:33 PM

It wasn't the vines that did me in game 2; it was keeping a six-card hand with vial and port and mountain, having him claim my Vial, and then his lucksacking not just out of mana screw from my port, but also into running wastelands, and then furthermore, when I got a pyrokinesis to blow his team away, which was a fresh Fauna Shaman and two Elves, and get lackey through, it was him having his 1-of caller of the claw in hand.