[DTB] Vial Goblins

[jrw1985]

That's Magic for ya. Whateryagonnado?

[arebennian]

It wasn't the vines that did me in game 2; it was keeping a six-card hand with vial and port and mountain, having him claim my Vial, and then his lucksacking not just out of mana screw from my port, but also into running wastelands, and then furthermore, when I got a pyrokinesis to blow his team away, which was a fresh Fauna Shaman and two Elves, and get lackey through, it was him having his 1-of caller of the claw in hand.

Cool.
Do you have a list for the Elf/Vengevine deck that beat you? Did it make the top 8 or anything and have the results posted somewhere?

[Tacosnape]

Why Planar Void, ScatmanX? It's completely awful against Vengevine Survival, given that it doesn't stop Mongrel/Moeba, Vengevine, Rootwalla, return Vengevine, swaaang.

Black gives you Extirpate and Nihil Spellbomb, which are your two best options right now, both of which should be taking spots before Planar Void. Red has to make do with Leyline, Crypt, or Faerie Macabre.

[ScatmanX]

Why Planar Void, ScatmanX.

I only have 1 Extirpate! =P
My options were Planar Voit, Relic, Nihill and Faerie, and since I saw Dredge in the champ, I opted for Planar Void (that won me G2 against it).

Agains UGMadness, I sided +3 Knesis, +3 Needle, +3 Claim, -4 Vial,-1 Gempalm,-1Weirding,-1 Wort, -2MWM if I recall... so there was not even room for gravehate, and I'd not bring in Extirpate even if I was running it.

[Ozymandias]

One of my big issues with GY hate that costs mana vs. Vengevine is that it bones your tempo to keep mana open, and even if you do have a black source open, your opp can just Waste it, because they play those. If you keep spellbomb mana open, they even have Nature's Claim as an out. Now that I think about it, the best anti-VV hate for goblins is probably Faerie Macabre, since it requires no triggering preconditions, no mana open, can't be removed, and is okay as a topdeck.

[Koby]

Faerie Macabre is probably the best as a 4x due to the surprise factor vs VV. Nihil Spellbomb isn't bad either, since you don't need to leave mana up to use it (just to cantrip). But ultimately it runs the same problem as Tormod's Crypt - it can still be removed with Nature's Claim or Trygon Predator.


Do you have a list for the Elf/Vengevine deck that beat you? Did it make the top 8 or anything and have the results posted somewhere?

Check the UG Vengevine thread. My list. :P

[Tacosnape]

One of my big issues with GY hate that costs mana vs. Vengevine is that it bones your tempo to keep mana open, and even if you do have a black source open, your opp can just Waste it, because they play those. If you keep spellbomb mana open, they even have Nature's Claim as an out. Now that I think about it, the best anti-VV hate for goblins is probably Faerie Macabre, since it requires no triggering preconditions, no mana open, can't be removed, and is okay as a topdeck.

You do realize you don't have to keep mana open for Nihil Spellbomb, right? That's why it's fantastic. It's like mixing Crypt and Relic. You can either have the speed or the card.

That said, every single choice other than Extirpate or Leyline is going to often involve your graveyard hate being baited out by small 1 or 2 Vengevine at a time combinations, with a second wave following. Granted, sometimes that's enough tempo to win, but just saying.

[Ozymandias]

My issue with Spellbomb isn't the mana- it's that you're going to get your spellbomb claimed.

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

I just had a rather crazy idea.
What if we'd play Engineered Plague in SB? I mean it could be a secret tech against Vengevival: It keeps those nasty 1-mana creature away:

Mother of Runes - Human Cleric
Noble Hierarch - Human Druid
Loyal Retainers - Human Advisor

Against Rock:
Dark Confidant - Human Wizard
Qasali Pridemage - Cat Wizard

Against Zoo:
Wild Nacatl - Cat Warrior
Steppe Lynx - Cat
Qasali Pridemage - Cat Wizard
Grim Lavamancer - Human Wizard

Besides it can be used against any other tribal deck: Merfol, Elves and even Goblins! If we put enough Goblin Chieftain in MD we could even use it in mirrormatch.

What do you think?

//EDIT:

Here's a list that I designed, it surely can be improved

//LANDS [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
7 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb

//CORE [24]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader

//FLEX-Slots [9]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weiridng
1 SGC

//TECH [5]
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Boggart Mob
1 Earwig Squad

//SIDEBOARD [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

[dethangel666]

How does goblin do aganist tempo decks?

[ScatmanX]

What if we'd play Engineered Plague in SB?
Plague is also good against Dredge (Horror/Illusion/Zombie).
In that list, I'd change 1 or 2 Chiefteins for Buartusk Lieges.

If you're going to test that, let us know what you think later.

[GoboLord]

Plague is also good against Dredge (Horror/Illusion/Zombie).
In that list, I'd change 1 or 2 Chiefteins for Buartusk Lieges.

If you're going to test that, let us know what you think later.


Sure it can be used against dredge but it's not optimal, since we have better solutions. The thing is that I want to find out in which MUs it can be boarded effectively without dilluting our deck. Plus, I don't want the MD to be much different from other Gonblin lists, because that will probably cost consistancy and speed.
I will test it and let you know what I think.

[ScatmanX]

Sure it can be used against dredge but it's not optimal, since we have better solutions. The thing is that I want to find out in which MUs it can be boarded effectively without dilluting our deck. Plus, I don't want the MD to be much different from other Gonblin lists, because that will probably cost consistancy and speed.
I will test it and let you know what I think.
I think it is great against Ichorid, since I've used in other decks against it. r Mana to shut sown all they're Ichorids is pretty nifty. Also, you can turn their tokens into Sharpshooter range.
Well, playstile i think...

@Boartusk: He is a solid creature to run MD. It is very good vs Fish, mirror and Zoo. I'd give 1 a try if you never did...
edit: ok, maybe with 15 red sources, he may not be that great.

[Hof]

Honestly, I don't think its a good idea. First, Engineered Plague isn't even a very good card in the format with all those modern +1/+1 tribal lords (don't tell the non-Goblin players). Secondly, there are much better options available for the matchups you listed. Pyrokinesis is only one of them. Plague doesn't to anything to Vengevines, so how can it be any good in that matchup?! And its too slow, three mana! Same as Sharpshooter?! I don't think they care about losing their Noble Hierarch if they already have an active Survival. If you wanted to take out Noble Hierarch and the likes, Mogg Fanatic is probably much better. And for Plague in the mirror match.. well they will not see it coming, that much is guaranteed.

[Vandalize]

Hahaha, GoboLord, I've been testing Engineered Plague two weeks ago, since I was sick and tired of Qasali Pridemage and Grim Lavamancers raining on my parade. The enchantment makes Goblin Sharpshooter a real pro sniper, but I also think Pyrokinesis is a better option (nature's claim is shining bright on every single deck).

This is the decklist I've been running:

Lands [22]

8x Mountain
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Badlands
2x Ancient Tomb (<- really nice idea gobo)
1x Swamp

Core [25]

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x AEther Vial
1x Siege-Gang Commander (cut one of these for a second Earwig Squad, explanations below)

Flexible Slots [13]

3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Warren Weirding
2x Earwig Squad
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Goblin Chieftain (perhaps this is the right number)
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x Stingscourger

Sideboard [15]

1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Pyrokinesis
4x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Perish
3x Extirpate

Hmm, here we go... Cut one of the SGC for a second Earwig Squad because they're really, really good against some common matchups where I live (Solitarie and Surivival of the Fittest variants). Extirpate is there for the same reason. Uh, Perish is great, period.

I'm using Nihil Spellbomb because I tried over and over, but I can't like LofV.

[GoboLord]

Here is an update. I did some testing, but didnt get to use Plague too often. But the last game I had was really interesting. I played against Uwgr Countertop. I boarded Plague to hit Elspeth's tokens, but then I came to set it on "Wizard", hitting his Vendilion Clique and Grim Lavamancer!!
So here's an update:

GW SURVIVAL
Mother of Runes - Human Cleric
Noble Hierarch - Human Druid
Loyal Retainers - Human Advisor

ROCK
Dark Confidant - Human Wizard
Qasali Pridemage - Cat Wizard

ZOO
Wild Nacatl - Cat Warrior
Steppe Lynx - Cat
Qasali Pridemage - Cat Wizard
Grim Lavamancer - Human Wizard

Uwgr COUNTERTOP
Elspeth's tokens - Soldier
Vendilion Clique - Faerie Wizard
Grim Lavamancer - Human Wizard

TRIBALS
Goblins
Elves
Merfolk (maybe)
Tempo Faeries

[dethangel666]

Why do some goblin deck runs Auntie's Hovel?

[Ozymandias]

Auntie's hovel should really be badlands 5-8, but since I only own 2 badlands in it went. As it stands, it's a pain free dual land for r-b goblins, and so it's a pretty good substitute for this deck, especially since life lost fetching can add up.

[lebarion]

Why do some goblin deck runs Auntie's Hovel?

Because it is usually better to have a non-basic land wasted than a fetch stifled.
But I think it depends no which you face more. Currently, i'd play more fetches.

[Justin]

Auntie's Hovel is pretty much a Badland that you can't fetch in this deck. It will almost never come into the battlefield tapped because of all the goblins this deck runs. At the end of the game, when you have no goblins in hand and are in top deck mode, it doesn't matter that it comes into play tapped. Hovel has a few advantages over running fetches. Hovel keeps your life total higher and cannot be stifled. Because Hovel does not shuffle your library, it keeps the non-goblin cards you don't need that you revealed from a Ringleader on the bottom of your deck. So you could argue that your draws might be slightly better running Hovel over fetches. On the other hand, fetches do thin your deck and they are less vulnerable to some non-basic hate like Wasteland.

[Vandalize]

What's up guys!

I've been running a kind of weird list (red and black) and it has been pretty much effective.

Lands [22]

4x Wasteland
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
7x Mountain
2x Ancient Tomb
1x Swamp

Core [26]

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Siege-Gang Commander
4x AEther Vial

Flexible Slots [10]

2x Warren Weirding
2x Earwig Squad
2x Goblin Chieftain
1x Stingscourger
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Tarfire

Sideboard [15]

1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Earwig Squad
1x TukTuk Scrapper
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Perish
3x Pyrokinesis

OK, BEFORE YOU GUYS START HARASSING ME, TARFIRE IS THERE FOR A REASON.... It's fetchable with Matron. Ok, 2 damage can't kill almost anything in legacy, but being fetchable means that you can kill that Grim Lavamancer, Qasali Pridemage, Noble Hierarch or whoever is giving you some trouble. Moreover, you can get it back with Wort.

I'm running two Earwig Squad because main deck it's my only response to enchantments in a R/B list. It's not solid, but it's something... and being a 5/3 giant is great also. This card has saved me against Solitaire so many times... (hitting their win-cons like Sigil of the Empty Throne and Words of War).

That single TukTuk Scrapper is really HUGE! I'd say it's a less powered Smash to Smithreens that is fetchable and hits that damned Jitte on the field.

Those Ancient Tombs are really good. Thanks GoboLord, you just put a lot of mana acceleration in a goblin deck :)

[ScatmanX]

@Vandalize:
Your deck is missing 2 cards. I'd suggest them to be Gempalm Incinerators.
Also, it would appear your deck has a tough M against Zoo and Vengevine. How have those been for you?

Have any of you guys that are trying Tomb tryed with both Wastes and Ports. I really did not want to cut any Port from my list...
Maybe upping the land count to 24, and adding the Tombs?
will try somethings out...

[Vandalize]

Yeah, the two cards missing are Gempalm Incinerators, hehe.

I don't know if ports are really necessary. Having too many colorless lands might make the deck a little slow.

Zoo is a weird matchup for me... Game 1 is almost luck, i'd say... You can ramp them with piledriver in turn 3 or 4, or they can just burn every single goblin and beat with a tarmogoyf on steroids.
Game 2 (and 3) depends on a nice timed Perish, or even double appear, Relic of progenitus is also fine to slow down lavamancers and goyfs.

Vengevine is hard, really... But that's another reason for Earwig Squad main deck... and they can come really quick with ancient tomb. (T1: badlands -> lackey. T2: ancient tomb -> lackey attacking -> goblin -> earwig prowled.) It happened often for me. And Perish is also good against it.

[Tacosnape]

Actually, no bashing for the Tarfire, I've started to like it, because it's really good against the mirror (Goblins has very little answer to Lackey on the draw), and it's saved my ass a few times by taking down a Noble Hierarch to slow down Vengevine, or Countertop, or NO, or Bant, or one of the 202346932838429 other decks running Noble Hierarch.

As for Vengevine, Tomb and Earwig Squad seems a little much for me. My gut feeling is that you'll get the scenario you described uninterrupted very rarely. I'd rather just maindeck a couple Pithing Needles or Nature's Claims, or have a sideboard loaded with Extirpate or something.

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

I participated in a tournament last Sunday. It was the Legacy side-event of the Grand Prix in Bochum. My report will be short, cause I didn’t take notes. Here we go with the decklist:

//LANDS [22]
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
6 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

//CORE [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC

//REMOVAL [8]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding

//Flexible Slots [4]
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//SIDEBOARD [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Round 1 – Fabian with Ugb Stiflenought (eventually Top 8)
G1: I go first with MLG (Mountain, Lackey, Go). He has Tropical, Go. I attack with Lackey, he has Stifle for his trigger; I play Piledriver, Go. On his 2nd turn he has Nought+Stifle. I’m unable to find Scourger or Weirding in the following 2 turns. (0-1)

IN: 4 Chalice
OUT: 3 Bolt, 1 GI

G2: I start with Swamp, Vial, Go with 2 Wastelands and 1 Port in hand. Vial resolves and brings Gs, while I destroy his manabase. (1-1)

G3: I keep a rather slow hand with Weirding and some dudes. In the turn he has Stiflenought he is able to waste my Badland. He has no counter-backup in the following two turn, but neither did I find a black source for my Weirding. (1-2)

0-1-0

Round 2 – Karol with U Merfolk
G1: He has turn 1 Cursecatcher, turn 2 Jitte, turn 3 attack. He made a poor move: He attacks with Cursecatcher feat. Jitte on turn 4. I block with MWM. Instead of using a counter to pump his Catcher, he kills my blocking MWM with -1/-1 ability. Therefore his Jitte doesn’t trigger in Damage step. A few turn later I attack with Warchief, Lackey, Ringleader. He removes all counters to kilo Warchief and Ringleader. Lackey connects and brings in SGC. From this point on Jitte doesn’t trigger anymore (because of block + sacrifice before damage step). (1-0)

IN: 3 Pyrokinesis
OUT: Weirding, Stingscourger, MWM

G2: He counters my turn 1 Vial and plays Chill on turn 2. Nevertheless I am able to play the important stuff (like removal and Piledriver). He scoops with 6 lands in play and 4 on his hand. (2-0)

1-1-0

Round 3 – Kaj with Uwb Imperial Painter feat. LED
G1: I can only guess what he is playing because I only saw: Sensei’s Divining Top, LED, FoW and Plains/Mountain/Island. So I play Matron into Gempalm to be able to shut off his Painter. (1-0)

IN: 4 Chalice of the Void
OUT: Weirding, 3 Bolts

G2: He plays Ancient Tomb + SDT + activate in turn 1. On turn 2: Tundra, LED. Draw with SDT, plays Painter + Grindstone. Crack LED for activation. (1-1)

G3: This game is very close, but I am able to find GI with Matron. He is unable to keep my Goblin-count below 3 for the rest of the game. (2-1)

2-1-0

Round 4 – Pascal with Ur Merfolk
G1: I have take mulligan to 4. I lose to several Lords + Wakethrasher. (0-1)

IN: 3 Pyrokinesis
OUT: Weirding, Stingscourger, MWM

G2: He keeps an aggressive hand without man-lands, is able to counter 2 Piledrivers but has nothing but Lord and Cursecatcher. Those fall prey to Pyrokinesis. Chieftain + SGC finish him off. (1-1)

G3: The last game lasts very long. I take mulligan to 5 with Vial, 2 MWM, 2 Mountain. My Vial resolves and in the course of the game I draw Bolt, Pyrokinesis and 2 Piledriver. Those 4 cards are basically the gamebreakers of this match. (2-1)

3-1-0

Round 5 – Arno with U Merfolk
G1: I lose to 2 Lords, 2 Mutavault and 2 Mishra’s Factory. (0-1)

IN: 3 Pyrokinesis
OUT: Weirding, Stingscourger, MWM
G2: He loses to turn 1 Lackey into SGC (1-1)

G3: He loses to Piledrivers and Pyrokinesis. (2-1)

4-1-0

Round 6 - ??? with Enchantress feat. Living Wish (eventually Top 8)
G1: He has 2 Serra’s Sanctum, I have 2 Wastelands (which were supposed to shut him off from W). On turn 4 He plays Living Wish into Serra’s Sanctum. I scoop as he plays Confinement. (0-1)

IN: 4 Chalice of the Void, 3 Perish
OUT 3 Bolts, 1 Stingscourger, 3 GI,

G2: Elephant Grass slows me down. On turn 6 he counts his enchantments, adds 17 mana into his pool and plays Living Wish into Emrakul. (0-2)

4-2-0

Round 7 - ??? with Uw Landstill
G1: Gameloss for being too late. (0-1)
G2: I take mulligan to 5, keep a slow hand. On turn 4, 5 and 6 he play respectively Humility, Wrath of God and Jace 2.0. I congratulate him for the fastes 2-0 win with Landstill in the history of Legacy. Scoopy-Doo. (0-2)

4-3-0

Round 8 – Fabian with Nothing aka the Invisible Woman
I win 2-0 because my opponent doesn’t show up.

5-3-0

I ended 33rd out of 180 players.

PROs and CONs:
+ Chieftain worked out
+ I met 3 Merfolks
+ Christopher Moeller signed my SGC and Lightning Bolt
+ T. Saito signed one of my Raging Goblins (I have 213 copies, 210 of which are signed/altered)
- didn’t use Leylines
- didn’t use Sharpshooters
- G-Splash would have been useful in 2 MUs

Conclusion:
As jrw pointed out after his last tournament report, Perish didn’t work out. I’ll probably play Rg next time to have access to Nature’s Claim and TSH again.

[Caspid]

Playing casually on MWS, I just got brutally murdered by Vesper Green (mentioned in the article here: http://mtgsalvation.com/1140-thoughtseizing-the-opportunity-vesper-green.html - it's like Eva Green that splashes white for more control)

Could blame part of it on bad draws and slow starts, but I would've lost anyway to Nighthawk, 5/6 Goyf, Gatekeeper, StP, Maelstrom Pulse, Tombstalker. Third game I managed to stall out for a while, but Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize ate my hand while Gatekeepers and Goyf beat me senseless :(

[Avatara]

What do you guys think about running 4 x Inquisition of Kozilek in de mainboard? It hits everything that costs three mana or less. That's pretty much without the disadvantage of loosing two life from Thoughseize. It there really a match-up where we don't want to have it?

[jrw1985]

What do you guys think about running 4 x Inquisition of Kozilek in de mainboard? It hits everything that costs three mana or less. That's pretty much without the disadvantage of loosing two life from Thoughseize. It there really a match-up where we don't want to have it?

It's clearly great against any matchup. I mean, so long as you wouldn't rather cast Lackey or Vial turn 1. Or if you don't want to draw it turn 6 after your opponent just Fireblasted the board away and you're staring down a Goyf with a Jitte attached. Or if you'd like to stop Moat, or Tendrils, or Ad Nauseum, or Jace. Or Zoo...

Clearly I'm being facetious. I don't like discard in Goblins because it gets in the way of what goblins is trying to do, which is overwhelm the board with creatures. If you must run discard I'd relegate it to the SB, and I'd use Cabal Therapy. The free flashback is incredible, and it can hit any important piece regardless of CC.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Hello peeps here's my mono-R vial gobs build .... finished 21st out of 114 in our Legacy Mox Tourney. Meta here in the Philippines are more on gobs,fish,counter-top,the rock and zoo. Survival decks here are becoming more popular 3 of them finishing on the top 8. Well, I got busted on my 5th game on a white green iona-retainers survival build, 3rd turn lock "GOODGAME" :) Well anyways here's my mono-R gobs built that I have been piloting within a year or so..... Suggestions are welcome :)

My decklist:

Creatures:
4 Goblin Lucky
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Gemphalm Incinerator
4 Mogg-War Marshall - love this card!!!
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege Gang Commander

Artifacts: 4
4 Aether Vial

Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountains

SB:
3 pyrokinesis
3 thorn of amethyst
3 red elemental blast
3 tormods crypt
1 goblin sharpshooter
2 boartusk liege

[(nameless one)]

My build looks almost exactly like yours. The only difference is I run 3 Warchief/Chieftain/Incinerator/Stingscouger.

I don't like fetchlands on mono-red builds. If you're playing against aggro, you want to have your life higher than your opponent. Besides, fetchlands filtering your deck doesn't really help that much.

The reason why I run 3 of each above is:

While multiple Warchiefs are good, I find that multiple Chieftains are better. They help you maximize the tokens you get from War Marshalls and Commanders. Besides, Merfolks are packing Engineered Plague post sideboard

Having Stingscourger has saved me a lot. Yes, you can tutor for them but having more means you increase the chance of getting it in your first 10 cards. Not only it can act as a removal, it is also an extra body that you can throw against an opponent. This is important against other aggro decks especially against Zoo. It can also save you from Iona and Emrakul (if you have your Vial ready)

[Mantis]

I don't like fetchlands myself in Goblins either, if you can avoid them. The reason for that is, besides lifetotal which is reason enough not to run them anyway, you often don't want to shuffle your deck when chaining Ringleaders. Another reason is that it's quite often desirable to draw Mountains if you run 4 Wastelands and 4 Ports.

For the rest, I almost play the same build as you do when I play mono red, just have 2 Bolt and an additional land instead of 2 Chieftains and 1 Stingscourger. Your configuration could definately be better against a broad field, but the Bolts help me in the Zoo matchup, a prevalent deck around here.

[HelloHero]

SB:
3 pyrokinesis
3 thorn of amethyst
3 red elemental blast
3 tormods crypt
1 goblin sharpshooter
2 boartusk liege

How have the boartusks worked for you?

[Pinoy Goblin]

Regarding using fetchlands in my monored build I beg to disagree bro it helps me a lot thru deck thining and it also helps me thru good ringleader draws, just imagine this without fetches in your deck drawing basic lands in your library multiple times every turn sucks plus in a critical agro match up you have the option to use your fetches or not . . . you have warchiefs and vials to help you.

Regarding the use of 3 or more chieftains I think 2 is enough though beause I have 2 liege in my SB, Im not comfortable with 3 warchiefs, also 4 warchiefs is the way to go, I know you can tutor it but what if you dont have a matron in your hand? Goblin warchief helps a lot as a tempo boost in our decks for me this is the essential card. 4 gemphalm incenerators is a must also because its a very good card advantage for us because stifle or trickbind only can stop it plus the extra draw it gives. Well anyways bro if your comfortable with that build then go what works for you.:smile:

Boartusk liege helps me a lot in some matchups with decks that run engineered plague as their SB plus with my 2 chieftains in my mainboard. Tested it during my tourney matchups with mono-black control and Merfolk w/black splash and all I can say is this card is a must have in your SB if your meta runs EP in their SB's cause it helped me a lot in the crucial stages of my matches but you have to time it though with fish decks because of their counterspells :tongue:

Gobs Rule!!!:laugh:

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Regarding using fetchlands in my monored build I beg to disagree bro it helps me a lot thru deck thining and it also helps me thru good ringleader draws, just imagine this without fetches in your deck drawing basic lands in your library multiple times every turn sucks plus in a critical agro match up you have the option to use your fetches or not . . . you have warchiefs and vials to help you.

Regarding the use of 3 or more chieftains I think 2 is enough though beause I have 2 liege in my SB, Im not comfortable with 3 warchiefs, also 4 warchiefs is the way to go, I know you can tutor it but what if you dont have a matron in your hand? Goblin warchief helps a lot as a tempo boost in our decks for me this is the essential card. 4 gemphalm incenerators is a must also because its a very good card advantage for us because stifle or trickbind only can stop it plus the extra draw it gives. Well anyways bro if your comfortable with that build then go what works for you.:smile:

Boartusk liege helps me a lot in some matchups with decks that run engineered plague as their SB plus with my 2 chieftains in my mainboard. Tested it during my tourney matchups with mono-black control and Merfolk w/black splash and all I can say is this card is a must have in your SB if your meta runs EP in their SB's cause it helped me a lot in the crucial stages of my matches but you have to time it though with fish decks because of their counterspells :tongue:

Gobs Rule!!!:laugh:

I don't run fetches in mono red because I like not losing to Stifle.

[Nidd]

Regarding using fetchlands in my monored build I beg to disagree bro it helps me a lot thru deck thining and it also helps me thru good ringleader draws
Give me a break. When a Ringleader reveals lands, they stay under the library and you won't see them the whole game - unless you shuffle your library, in which case you are putting the lands your Ringleaders stacked under your library back into the library and after you've filtered Goblins out of your deck, you effectively decreased your Goblin count. Hooray!

Seriously, if you run Mono Red, don't use Fetches. Ever.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Seriously, if you run Mono Red, don't use Fetches. Ever.

Nah why not run them? 7 fetches would not hurt you seriously . . . . Maybe playing 20 fetches will :laugh:

[ChrisElrod]

Nah why not run them?


I don't run fetches in mono red because I like not losing to Stifle.


Give me a break. When a Ringleader reveals lands, they stay under the library and you won't see them the whole game - unless you shuffle your library, in which case you are putting the lands your Ringleaders stacked under your library back into the library and after you've filtered Goblins out of your deck, you effectively decreased your Goblin count. Hooray!

Pinoy, do you have problems with reading comprehension?

I know even a lot of Rb goblin lists run 4 badlands and 4 Auntie's Hovel so that they can avoid running fetches.

Stifle is for the most part on the decline, but some lists of the UG madness deck still run it.

[TossUsToLions]

It depends on your metagame. If you play against a lot of stifles, or zoo/burn decks, obviously cut back on the fetches. Otherwise i don't see it hurting too much, and possibly even helping. They thin out the deck BEFORE ringleader hits, but shuffles the lands back into the deck AFTER ringleader hits. I think that the former is more important, but this comes down to personal opinion and playstyle.

BTW Nidd, sick avatar

[Pinoy Goblin]

Pinoy, do you have problems with reading comprehension?
- Nope how about you? :tongue:

Oh well, running fetches or not . . . its just my playing style to run those on my mono built and it works for me fine:smile:
Guys dont flame me for running fetches in my built we are on the same team ayt!!!:cool:

[Nidd]

BTW Nidd, sick avatar
Thx dude :cool:

- Nope how about you? :tongue:

Oh well, running fetches or not . . . its just my playing style to run those on my mono built and it works for me fine:smile:
Guys dont flame me for running fetches in my built we are on the same team ayt!!!:cool:
Okay, I'll repeat myself.

If you Fetch after you've landed a Ringleader whom revealed 2 Goblins + 2 Lands, the 2 Lands you revealed and put under your deck are shuffled back into your deck.
As you've removed Goblins from your deck (via Ringleader) but the amount of Land stayed the same, you decreased the Goblin count in your deck, decreasing the quality of your topdecks.

[Tacosnape]

@Nidd: That's an interesting point, and while technically correct (And as Bureaucrat #1.0 says, it's the best kind of correct), it doesn't factor in two things:

1. This only applies to Ringleaders 2-4, and only if Ringleader 1 hit enough land.
2. You're much more likely to use more fetchlands before the first Ringleader hits play than after.

So as far as the assertion goes that Fetchlands help your Ringleader draws, for the most part yes they do. But I don't think this makes it worth running the red fetches and subjecting yourself to life loss, risk of Stifle, or the chance of running into some completely random card like Ankh of Mishra or Leonin Arbiter.

[Nelis]

And Matron Shuffles the deck as well so its not like the lands will always stay underneath.

[Nidd]

@Nidd: That's an interesting point, and while technically correct (And as Bureaucrat #1.0 says, it's the best kind of correct), it doesn't factor in two things:

1. This only applies to Ringleaders 2-4, and only if Ringleader 1 hit enough land.
2. You're much more likely to use more fetchlands before the first Ringleader hits play than after.

So as far as the assertion goes that Fetchlands help your Ringleader draws, for the most part yes they do. But I don't think this makes it worth running the red fetches and subjecting yourself to life loss, risk of Stifle, or the chance of running into some completely random card like Ankh of Mishra or Leonin Arbiter.
I was assuming that everyone is aware of the dangers the usage of Fetches brings with it, but good that you outlined them. We can agree that running Fetches in Mono Red versions isn't worth it, can't we?

And Matron Shuffles the deck as well so its not like the lands will always stay underneath.
Well, If you play 4 Matrons and 7 Fetches, that's 11 shuffle effects VS 4 from Matrons alone.
Also, the first Matron pretty much always gets me a Ringleader, so only 3 of them shuffle lands back into the deck.

[Vandalize]

Uh, what about this monored list?

Lands [22]

4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
14x Mountain

Core [26]

4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Lackey
4x AEther Vial
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal [5]

3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Tarfire
1x Stingscourger

Flex Slots [7]

3x Goblin Chieftain
3x Mogg War Marshal
1x TukTuk Scrapper

Sideboard [15]

3x Pyrokinesis
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Lightning Crafter

Perhaps the deck needs less goblins and more Lightning Bolts...

Tarfire is fetchable and has been prettty useful.

[GoboLord]

Three things:

(1) I don't like the MD Scrapper. I guess it's not that important to have MD artifact removal. Unlike TSh and Tnkerer, Scrapper costs 4 mana which is a lot.

(2) I find 3 Chieftain too much (unless you're expecting a lot of mirror matches in your meta). I'd cut one or two

(3) IMO Goblins shouldn't run less than 6 removal.

[Vandalize]

For monored lists, TukTuk Scrapper is really the best option... TSH means green splash and Goblin Tinkerer is usually removed before it can do his job... TukTuk has a ETB effect, that's why it's superior in my point of view... And yes, I like an artifact removal MD because many decks runs Jitte (which gives me a really hard time). About the chieftains, yeah, their counting is too high, i'll run only 2 of them.

Now, back for the R/B List, I've tried something like this:

Lands [22]

4x Wasteland
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
5x Mountain
1x Swamp
3x Rishadan Port
1x Ancient Tomb (this card might be random, but it's always good to have it in opening hand)

Core [26]

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x AEther Vial
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal [6]

3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Warren Weirding
1x Tarfire
1x Stingscourger

Flexible Slots [7]

2x Mogg War Marshal
1x Boggart Mob (this is another random card, but it's a 5/5 body and keeps your goblin count high)
1x Earwig Squad
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Chieftain

MD has 61 cards :o

Sideboard [15]

3x Perish
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
1x Earwig Squad
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

right now I'm busy with some testing for the Dutch Legacy Open.
According to several Dutch Legacy players the meta should look like this:

Tier 1.0: Goblins
Tier 1.1: Merfolk, TES and probably Vengevival
Tier 2.0: Bant, Zoo, Threshold, Rock

Of course those decks aren't the only one to show up, but they seems to be most likely to meet, which means that I have to face a for me totally new task: praticing the mirror match. In Germany there are very few players that play Goblins regularly, so I'm not quite skilled in mirrormatching. That's why I could use some adivce. Here goes my list:

//Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC

//Flex [12]
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Stngscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice otV
4 Leyline otV
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Here a some questions

(1) How would you side against Goblins with this list?

(2) How would you side against Rock with this list?

(3) Would you add splashes? Which one? Why?

(4) Should I run Rishadan Port or not?


It's not that I'm completely desperate and helpless (cause those questions are somehow what one would expect from someone who has just started to play this deck). It's more that I want to hear your oppinions on those topics without biasing them by telling you mine.

Thank you!

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Doesn't mono red gobbos beat splashed versions in the mirror?

There's always the random Goblin King.

Or splash black and play Wort.

[Waikiki]

interesting tier analysis. I do not expect goblins to be the deck to be in biggest numbers at all.

[Doomsday]

I've just built this deck and find it incredibly mana-hungry. I normally play combo and to me the idea of surviving long enough to get a 4CC draw engine going, with only Lackey and (kind of Vial) for accel and just Waste and Port for disruption, seems crazy. Any builds that have tried Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or Ancient Tomb with any success out there?

[Zörg]

Hello again!

Done some updates to my deck, and i could use some feedback. I have added the MWM, Sharpshooter and prospector "combo", so my deck is a more defensive style goblin deck.

I have some questions that kill me ! =O Sting in main, worth it? And my SB is mad, i cant decide how i want it. Needle, is it worth to even have in there? And tinkerer or scrapper? And ive been thinking about bloodmoon+king

Help! =O

CREATURES (34)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Aether Vial

LANDS (22)
14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland


SIDEBOARD
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
2 Goblin Tinkerer

[GoboLord]

I've just built this deck and find it incredibly mana-hungry. I normally play combo and to me the idea of surviving long enough to get a 4CC draw engine going, with only Lackey and (kind of Vial) for accel and just Waste and Port for disruption, seems crazy. Any builds that have tried Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or Ancient Tomb with any success out there?

Then you probably don't run Lackey and AEther Vial in your list, cause those cards ensure that you virtually never have to pay 4 mana for any spell.

Plus, it's not that you have to survive until then. It's more that your oppnents should try to survive the first 3 turns

[antonbystedt]

Hello fellow Goblin players.

I just came home from 2 Legacy Tournaments here in Sweden and have some rage to share. I've slept 4 hours on 2 days, so please, don't complain on grammar.

The first tournament i went 4-2, i lost to 2 G/W Survival.
Won against: The Rock/Junk, The Rock/Junk, Mirror, Zoo

I prepared my deck for ALOT of Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins. I've never lost a mirror game and i have a record of 70% Win against Zoo or more with my current decklist.
So i could say, i was very prepared for Merfolk, Zoo and Goblins.
But Survival is another story, i Extirpate thiers Vengevine, then they get like 3 Mother of runes, 1 Burrenton and Umezawa's Jitte some Tarms etc, WTF am i supposed to do against that...

So the 2nd Tournament went 2-3
Started out strong with 2-0 after winning against a random aggro deck and Merfolk, then i lost vs 2 G/W Vengevine once again (One guy was the same guy as i lost to the day before), and a belcher.

My friend who also played Goblins, faced no Venges and only 1 combo and made easy top 8, FML.

So my list was:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Warren Wierding
4 Aether Vial

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain

SB:
4 Extirpate
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip

I am very happy with the MD and SB, i have no troubles so far against aggro/controll/tempo, only the god damn G/W Decks. Maybe i was unlucky getting paired against that or maybe i played wrong, can't really remember.

I really missed TSH MD, that would have saved me many times.

Next tournament i think im going to play Mono Red list, the draws with Ringleaders will be much more solid. Also, mono red is IMO the best Goblin build Pre SB.
So if im going to play Mono Red im probably going to play this SB; and probably the same MD as the list above (-1 Wierding, +1 Stingscourger).
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle



So, how do you beat G/W Venge/Death n Taxes? It feels like an endless uphill each time...
4 Mindbreak Trap

[arebennian]

Mindbreak trap would be hot tech, if they had to madness off more than 2 creatures to get all the Vengevines they dumped into the yard.

It won't exile the Vengevines either.

[Doomsday]

Then you probably don't run Lackey and AEther Vial in your list, cause those cards ensure that you virtually never have to pay 4 mana for any spell.

Plus, it's not that you have to survive until then. It's more that your oppnents should try to survive the first 3 turns

Well I obviously run both. Aether Vial does nothing to let you start the draw engine any sooner, it just lets you play more threats in the meantime. Lackey is the only true accel. And unless I'm missing something, kill seems to be turn 4 even with god hand.

[GoboLord]

But Survival is another story, i Extirpate thiers Vengevine, then they get like 3 Mother of runes, 1 Burrenton and Umezawa's Jitte some Tarms etc, WTF am i supposed to do against that...

[...]

So, how do you beat G/W Venge/Death n Taxes? It feels like an endless uphill each time...


I really don't want to anger you, but I have to say that the G/W version of Vengevival is a good MU for us.
What you need to realize (I guess) is this: Graveyard hate wont stop them, cause the GW-list is (unlike U/G) totally aggro. They don't have that much discard outlets (they miss Aquamoeba, Mongrell) and they don't run 4 Basking Rootwalla. G/W lists don't have Wonder as well. Therefore:
If you are up against G/W Vengevival you are up against a inferior aggro-deck. Just try to stall them with your Mogg-War Marshal and probably some SGCs. Aim for their Green non-basics, and burn down their Mother of Runes and Hierarchs.
I find Pyrokinesis much more usefull against them than Extirpate.

Well...this is only true for G/W (against which I was able to test a lot), not for U/G.

Death n Taxes is a tough MU if they are packing G. I guess G splash for Nature's Claim and TSH should help here (cause without their Vial and nasty Equipments DnT is just a slow aggro deck)


Well I obviously run both. Aether Vial does nothing to let you start the draw engine any sooner, it just lets you play more threats in the meantime. Lackey is the only true accel. And unless I'm missing something, kill seems to be turn 4 even with god hand.

Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey
Turn 2: Attack, pitch Warchief. Mountain, Piledriver, Piledriver
Turn 3: Any Goblin. Attack for 9+9+2+1+X

Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey
Turn 2: Attack, pitch Siege-Gang Commander. Mountain, Piledriver
Turn 3: Attack for 11+2+1+1+1+1. Sac token for burn (2).

There are more such scenarios....

[Vandalize]

Basically, you have to ways to lead with Vengevine:

Graveyard Hate (probably the less effective)
- Relic of Progenitus
- Leyline of the Void
- Tormod's Crypt
- Nihil Spellbomb
- Planar Void
- Faerie Macabre

I find relic of progenitus the best choice, since some lists run Tarmogoyfs and Jitte's as secondary win-cons.

Enchantment Hate (hitting SotF, er)

- Nature's Claim
- Krosan Grip
- Pithing Needle (this is easily removed, but very annoying)
- All those green enchantment hate...

Every card here has their own advantage:

KGrip = does the job without complaint and responses, but a little slow.
Nature's Claim = Fast as hell, but gives 4 life.
Pithing Needle = Stops SotF, but it's easily removed.

My personal choices are: Relic and Needle.

Doomsday, goblins isn't a stupidly fast aggro deck. I've seem some Pauper format decks (only commons) that can get a turn 3 kill with creatures. Goblins happen to be a kind of aggro-control with a little speed.

[Doomsday]

Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey
Turn 2: Attack, pitch Warchief. Mountain, Piledriver, Piledriver
Turn 3: Any Goblin. Attack for 9+9+2+1+X

Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey
Turn 2: Attack, pitch Siege-Gang Commander. Mountain, Piledriver
Turn 3: Attack for 11+2+1+1+1+1. Sac token for burn (2).

There are more such scenarios....

Alright, so it's turn 3 with the total god-hands and facing someone with zero removal and zero blockers. The draw engine doesn't ever come online in these examples, because it's so slow with Lackey as the only accel. Has anyone tried petals, moxen or tombs to make the deck any faster?

[TheSleeper]

I've been playing and testing Goblins for the past couple of months, so just thought I'd throw up two reports and some thoughts in general.

***
October Event (6th/20)

Mono-Red Goblins:
4 @ Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Matron, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Ringleader
3 @ Lightning Bolt, Mogg War Marshal
2 @ Siege-Gang Commander
1 @ Stingscourger, Goblin Chieftain

14 Mountain
4 @ Rishadan Port, Wasteland

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
3 @ Faerie Macabre, Pithing Needle
2 @ Boartusk Liege, Goblin Chieftain
1 Vexing Shusher

R1 Zoo (2-0)
G1: Lost the roll, Lightning Bolt got Lackey through into Siege-Gang. Kept the pressure up with tokens and just overran him.
->SB (+4 Pyro, -1 Chieftain, -1 Sting, -1 Piledriver, -1 Gempalm)
G2: Get another nuts draw, took out some guys with Pyrokinesis and streamrolled. MWM & Siege-Gang were my MVP's in these games.

R2 Bant/Jace Control (2-0)
G1: First 4 turns I had 3 Wastelands on his duals, then had 2 Ports going. Killed him before he could recover.
->SB (+1 Vexing Shusher, -1 Gempalm)
G2: Get a fast start and start laying down creatures. He lays a couple of Goyfs and VClique's me. My hand is: Ringleader, Ringleader, Siege, Siege, Wasteland. He stares in disbelief and concedes shortly after.

R3 43-Land.dec (2-0)
G1: Great tight game. I have a good hand but he gets an early Tabernacle. I attack with 3 guys, 2 guys, 1 guy, while he's sitting on 3 life. I'm desperate to find a Bolt or even a Wasteland. I cycle 4 Gempalms and still don't find a kill. Meanwhile he is getting Loam online so my time is running out. Eventually I move Vial up to 5. I'm pretty sure he has a CropRot in hand so I have to try to play around it. I Vial in Siege-Gang, trigger 2 dmg (resolves), trigger again, he responds with Crop Rot, trigger a third time, GG.
->SB (+3 Pithing Needle, -1 Stingscourger, -2 MWM)
G2: Not much time left after an epic G1. Unfortunately he mulls (drawing 7 incorrectly, Judge makes him go down to 5, which he mulls again into 4). I had a Lackey->Siege-Gang and it was over.

R4, R5 - ID

Quarter-Finals 'Lord of Extinction.dec' (0-2)

G1: I'm feeling pretty good because I saw this deck (Jace/Deed control) during my Byes and thought I'd be too fast. I get draw 5 lands in a row before Jace FateSeals me for a few turns. I concede to save time in the round.
G2: Have a decent hand, however I never see a 3rd land all game and eventually die to a Lord of Extinction.

Finish 6/20.

Thoughts: Despite my singing the praises of Stingscourger in the past, I didn't use it all day and was often SB-out fodder. There were 3 Lands.dec's in a field of 20 which was very surprising, so I'd consider Blood Moon in the future.

***
November Event (3rd/8)

Why RG?
After playing MonoR last month, I found the only thing that was really screwing me over in testing was Jitte. So I tested RG, found I didn't lose much % anywhere, while gaining an out to Jitte, as well as access to KGrip in the board. Also after my previous disappointment with Stingscourger, I cut it completely and haven't missed it. My meta has basically no Iona or Emrakul; Progenitus much more so. 4 Bolts were testing great so I felt fine without it. Here we go!

RG Goblins:
4 @ Lightning Bolt, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Matron, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Ringleader
3 @ Mogg War Marshal, Gempalm Incinerator
2 @ Siege-Gang Commander
1 @ Tin-Street Hooligan, Goblin Chieftain

4 @ Wasteland, Wooded Foothills
3 @ Taiga, Rishadan Port
7 Mountain
1 Forest

SB:
3 @ Pyrokinesis, Pithing Needle, Boartusk Liege, Relic of Progenitus, Krosan Grip

R1 MonoU Merfolk (2-0)
G1: He wins the roll, elects to play. He mulls to 6, I keep 7. Lackey trades with Cursecatcher, we both have Vials but he is swinging with a Mutavault. Bolt gets Spell Pierced and I go down to 5 life before I stabilize with blockers. I get tonnes of Goblins and swing in with a huge army. 1-0.
->SB (+3 Pyrokinesis, -3 MWM)
G2: He plays with 7 while I mull to 6. Much more one sided this time. He has two Coralhelm's and I'm at 13 when I Bolt one (the other is tapped), hit for 17 leaving him on 2, and its over. One of the reasons I switched from Merfolk to Goblins was Piledriver and it proved its worth here.

R2 - GWB Survival (0-2)
G1: I knew I'd be facing Survival today, knew the matchup was pretty bad but hoped to mise. He plays, Cabal Therapy on Lackey (misses, I have Vial). Turn 2 Survival and he goes off shortly after. I did stabilize late, although when he NO->Prog still with 3 Vengvine on the table its over.
->SB (+3 Pyrokinesis, +3 Needle, -1 Ringleader, -2 Piledriver, -1 Matron, -1 MWM, -1 Vial)
G2: I sided like the above because in testing Graveyard hate (like Macabre) was never good enough, and my best chance was to keep them off Green mana early on, taking out their dudes and racing. Things like Ringleader and Vial were considered expendable since if the game went long I just lose. Despite him Venging like mad, I stabilize for a little while and nearly pull off a win. He is on 8, I'm on 5, both boards clogged. I draw SCG (he is tapped out of mana), I vial it in, only have 7 mana... if I had 8 I could have shot him for lethal. He is going to alpha strike next turn and I could still block all, shoot and put him on 1, possibly drawing another SCG or burn next turn ftw. Unfortunately he draws Shriekmaw, hitting SGC before attacks, which lets his alpha strike get there.

R3 - RW Sligh/Landfall
G1 & G2: Don't recall too many details except winning pretty quickly. He won a couple of casual games afterwards so perhaps a little lucky here.

Thoughts: The basic Forest was 'ok' in testing, but gave me the shits on the day. Not match-swingingly so, but I'd drop it for the 4th Taiga in future. Rest of the deck was fine and I probably wouldn't change anything. *Potentially* I'd find something to cut to go up to 23 land, but I love the list as is.

Conclusion: Love the deck, but I'm probably going to explore other options while Survival is the DTB, just because I can.

[Amon Amarth]

Hey guys,

right now I'm busy with some testing for the Dutch Legacy Open.
According to several Dutch Legacy players the meta should look like this:

Tier 1.0: Goblins
Tier 1.1: Merfolk, TES and probably Vengevival
Tier 2.0: Bant, Zoo, Threshold, Rock

Of course those decks aren't the only one to show up, but they seems to be most likely to meet, which means that I have to face a for me totally new task: praticing the mirror match. In Germany there are very few players that play Goblins regularly, so I'm not quite skilled in mirrormatching. That's why I could use some adivce. Here goes my list:

//Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC

//Flex [12]
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Stngscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice otV
4 Leyline otV
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Here a some questions

(1) How would you side against Goblins with this list?

(2) How would you side against Rock with this list?

(3) Would you add splashes? Which one? Why?

(4) Should I run Rishadan Port or not?


It's not that I'm completely desperate and helpless (cause those questions are somehow what one would expect from someone who has just started to play this deck). It's more that I want to hear your oppinions on those topics without biasing them by telling you mine.

Thank you!

The Goblin mirror is incredibly dynamic. You can start off strong but get wrecked by a Pyrokinesis and lose just as quickly. It is very skill intensive and super fun. Sharpshooter is important and having enough removal for first turn lackey. Sometimes Pyromancer was good sometimes it was meh. I'd probably replace it with Goblin Sharpshooter. You really need to play the mirror to get a feel for it.

When you say Rock you mean the BGW lists that have been placing well? I think all of them play plague so boarding in grip or claim is good, they also hit deed if they run it as well. Pop or moon might be good here as well, but I dont see it being a very difficult match, your LD is really good here. Killing confidant should be easy enough and then you can grind them out pretty easily as they have no other source of card advantage.

Black for Extirpate against Vengevival and Perish for Green decks.

Port should probably be run in mono red if you metagame is vulnerable to it, you know slower multicolor decks or decks that have unstable mana bases.

Hope that helps!

[ScatmanX]

(1) How would you side against Goblins with this list?

(2) How would you side against Rock with this list?

(3) Would you add splashes? Which one? Why?

(4) Should I run Rishadan Port or not?

1) -4 Piledriver, -1 Warchief, +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer.

2) +1 Liege, -1 MwM

3) If you don't want to splash, I'd add a 2nd Boartusk in place of Pyromancer to fight Junk's Plague. Does this version does well against Vengevine?

4) Yes. There's no reason to run at least 2 there, and I think 3 may be the right number.


Alright, so it's turn 3 with the total god-hands and facing someone with zero removal and zero blockers. The draw engine doesn't ever come online in these examples, because it's so slow with Lackey as the only accel. Has anyone tried petals, moxen or tombs to make the deck any faster?

The deck does not need to be that fast, though we can. T1 Vial, T2 Port, T3 Wasteland is a great move agains a great number of decks.
Goblins have the benefit of being an agroo deck with a great lategame. We have both fast and slow elements, and cards to support both strategies. Cards like Mogg Warmachal can delay something like Zoo's clock a lot, while we gather mana, disrupt them, and draw cards. And that's awesome, because we have a way better lategame than they have...
Also, Lackey connects a great number of times, specially if you opponent don't know what you're playing, so T3/4 kills happens quite often. Here are 2 more for you:

t1 - Lackey
t2 - Bolt a blocker, hit, drop Warchief + Piledriver.
t3 - Matron for Piledriver. win

t1 lackey
t2 hit, Drop SGC, cast MWM
t3 Chieftein. (2 dmg from fetchlands)

t1 lackey
t2 hit, drop Boartusk Liege, cast Piledriver.
t3 Cast Chieftein.

[GoboLord]

1) -4 Piledriver, -1 Warchief, +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer.

2) +1 Liege, -1 MwM

3) If you don't want to splash, I'd add a 2nd Boartusk in place of Pyromancer to fight Junk's Plague. Does this version does well against Vengevine?

4) Yes. There's no reason to run at least 2 there, and I think 3 may be the right number.


Thanks Amon & Scatman, that's pretty much what I thought. There two things I don't agree with:

(1)
Armon said, that Sharpshooter > Pyromancer.
My intuition tells me the same, but I fear that those Goblin decks will be well prepared for the mirror and will therefore pack more Chieftains/Goblin King. Those guys virtually nullify Sharpshooter. That's why Sharpshooter < Boartusk Liege, for me.
I'd be glad if the mirror is skill-intense. So far I didn't lose a Goblon mirror-match, which means that either my list has always been in favor or I just know how to do it.


(2)
Scatman said, that he'd board this way in the mirror:

-4 Piledriver, -1 Warchief, +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer.

I thought of
On the play: -1 Piledriver, -1 Stingscourger, -3 Lightning Bolt , +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer
On the draw: -4 Piledriver, -1 Stingscourger, +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer.

I feel that being on the play forces your opponent to have Lightning Bolt, Kinesis or Lackey on his opening hand, because he pobably has to deal with my own T1-Lackey. Therfore I'd kick out Lightning Bolt on the play.

What do you think?

btw. Would anybody like to practice the mirror-match with me on Magic Workstation? If so, please let me know (via PM).

[antonbystedt]

I really don't want to anger you, but I have to say that the G/W version of Vengevival is a good MU for us.
What you need to realize (I guess) is this: Graveyard hate wont stop them, cause the GW-list is (unlike U/G) totally aggro. They don't have that much discard outlets (they miss Aquamoeba, Mongrell) and they don't run 4 Basking Rootwalla. G/W lists don't have Wonder as well. Therefore:
If you are up against G/W Vengevival you are up against a inferior aggro-deck. Just try to stall them with your Mogg-War Marshal and probably some SGCs. Aim for their Green non-basics, and burn down their Mother of Runes and Hierarchs.
I find Pyrokinesis much more usefull against them than Extirpate.

Well...this is only true for G/W (against which I was able to test a lot), not for U/G.

Death n Taxes is a tough MU if they are packing G. I guess G splash for Nature's Claim and TSH should help here (cause without their Vial and nasty Equipments DnT is just a slow aggro deck)


The thing is, both of the G/W Surv decks i faced, had both Wonder, i thought about chumping with MWM and such, but it always end with thiers Goyfs and Venges flying over my team.

[Arew]

If your extremely worried about the mirror, you could throw in eithe a Goblin Mage or Goblin King in the SB as a one of.

[GoboLord]

The thing is, both of the G/W Surv decks i faced, had both Wonder, i thought about chumping with MWM and such, but it always end with thiers Goyfs and Venges flying over my team.

If it's really G/W Surv, then Wonder is plain useless


Wonder

Creature - Incarnation 2/2, 3U (4)
Flying

As long as Wonder is in your graveyard and you control an Island, creatures you control have flying.

If they had U splash just for that, their mana-base is even weaker than the G/W's. G/W Survival's manabase is something like that:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 G-Fetchland
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
2 Forest

Their manabase is obviously their weak point, that's why I'm advocation not to aim at their GY but at their manabase (which includes oble Hierarchs)

[ScatmanX]

@Gobbo: I guess I'd use your "on the draw" option only. Bolt lets your t1 lackey connect trough an enemy lackey, giving you 9 (if I counted right) ways to do that. Also, they can really surprise people with combat tricks, or even if just bluffing them.

Piledriver completely sucks here, so I see no need for leaving 3 of them in... (1off would be fine, like I've been doing against Zoo, since sometimes, we just need the Big Dude).

@Arew. Goblin King is bad, since it works both ways. Also, if you cast it only for the Alphastrike, it is also bad, since you opponent can burn him out, and block your guys...
And I guess Goblin Mage does not exist...

[Arew]

@Gobbo: I guess I'd use your "on the draw" option only. Bolt lets your t1 lackey connect trough an enemy lackey, giving you 9 (if I counted right) ways to do that. Also, they can really surprise people with combat tricks, or even if just bluffing them.

Piledriver completely sucks here, so I see no need for leaving 3 of them in... (1off would be fine, like I've been doing against Zoo, since sometimes, we just need the Big Dude).

@Arew. Goblin King is bad, since it works both ways. Also, if you cast it only for the Alphastrike, it is also bad, since you opponent can burn him out, and block your guys...
And I guess Goblin Mage does not exist...

Ah, for some reason I thought Goblin King read Goblins you control, and I always forget Goblin Mage is actually Goblin Pyromancer, the guys at my shop call him that.

I agree with boarding out all but one Piledriver, as he comes in really useful, and in my experience for game one, Goblin Sharpshooter is the MVP, followed closely by Skirk Prospector and Siege-Gang Commander.

[bloodbrother]

am i the only one that felt the weakening of wasteland when zendikar fetchlands were printed?

[HelloHero]

am i the only one that felt the weakening of wasteland when zendikar fetchlands were printed?

How so?

[TheSleeper]

I believe bloodbrother means because the enemy fetches let people get an enemy basic as opposed to a dual-land when splashing.

Anyways yes you are the only one - Wastelands still regularly win games for me on their own merit.

[bloodbrother]

I believe bloodbrother means because the enemy fetches let people get an enemy basic as opposed to a dual-land when splashing.

Anyways yes you are the only one - Wastelands still regularly win games for me on their own merit.

which match ups? you mean to say wasteland on it's own merit wins you games without the help from rishadan port? i'm referring to the power level of wasteland as a card for mana screwing opponents. before the enemy fetchlands where printed, people would play flooded strand to fetch tropical island to get a green source in UG decks. the enemy fetchlands also gave 3 color decks a much stable mana base. people run lots of fetches + one of basics + 2-3 duals lately as opposed to full playsets of duals. without rishadan port back up, it's very seldom to win via mana screw, unless playing an opponent keeping a hand with 1-2 lands and never drawing a land after.

i have 2 decks, one having a playset of wastelands and another having a playset of wastelands and a playset of ports. i really can't feel wasteland's presence on the deck that didn't have the port.

[bloodbrother]

i need people's opinion on running a playset of wastelands in a goblin deck without rishadan port backup. thanks.

[Dino]

Always play goblins with 4 wastelands and 3-4 ports. Mana denial is a large part of goblin's game plan against most decks

[GoboLord]

Always play goblins with 4 wastelands and 3-4 ports. Mana denial is a large part of goblin's game plan against most decks

Absolutely!

Plus: The more double-R in the manacosts in the cards of your list, the less Rishadan port you should run (e.g. Kiki-Jiki, Chieftain, Warren Instigator)

[ScatmanX]

before the enemy fetchlands where printed, people would play flooded strand to fetch tropical island to get a green source in UG decks.

And now they play Flooded Strand, and search for what to get an Wasteland-proof Green source?

Wasteland isn't just for color screwing. It can delay an Engineered Plague 1 turn, or a horde of Vengevines, and win you the game. It can destroy Tabernacle, Maze, and other problematic lands (Mutavaults, Mishra...). It can Srew up 3-4 collor decks...
We have littery no drawback using them. Just play, and you should see how goood they are, even without Ports.

And try Captalizing next time.

[Tacosnape]

I think Wasteland is getting misunderstood. It's not just for mana denial, though it can do this, quite well and quite efficiently. It can also be a tempo boost, or a very hard to counter free removal card for one of the gajillion problematic lands in the format.

In Goblins, it can keep a deck off Plague, or a lethal combo, or even just Knights of the Reliquary or whatever, for a turn while Lackey is dropping out hordes of beaters or Vial is charging. In some matches, it's mediocre removal and a colorless land. In others, it's a time walk. In others, it's game ending.

It's one of the ten strongest cards in Legacy. And in truth, in any deck you design, you really need to have a good reason -not- to run Wasteland.

[bloodbrother]

ok maybe i'm just not having matchups where in wasteland alone is good against. thanks for the feedback guys.

[Lejay]

Wasteland is still good, but I noticed the small decrease of power too.

[Vandalize]

Damn, remade my R/B list because I was missing Lightning Bolt so much! Dropped 1 land because I was kind of flooded some games.

Lands [21]

5x Mountain
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Badlands
3x Rishadan Port
2x Ancient Tomb

Core [26]

4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
4x AEther Vial
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal [7]

3x Lightning Bolt
3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Warren Weirding

Flexible Slots [6]

3x Mogg War Marshal
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Stingscourger
1x TukTuk Scrapper (sometimes this card wants to be a second Chieftain, but it has saved me a lot too)

Sideboard [15]

1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Earwig Squad
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Perish
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Pyrokinesis

Ah, finally a list with 3 Lightning Bolts! Gempalms are powerful, but just not as good as the oldschool bolt :)

[Morkus]

It’s my first contribution to this forum. I read you a lot between June when I won a National Legacy Tournament Qualifier and October when I finished 16th at the final French National Legacy Tournament (http://www.legacy-france.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4813&view=findpost&p=83876)
And 65th/180 at the “last chance tournament” (4 win + 3 lose + drop)

I’m a poor player because I never play in competition context. I have no training, no test. Just few matches a year with no competitor friends. So, misplays are frequent. BUT, I love this game and my results show that goblin is a very good deck. I could win a lot of match against good players with very good decks without particular luck. I want to share some comments.

I made the 3 tournaments with mono red because I wanted to play 4x Wasteland, 4x Rishadan Port and avoid mana issues.

National qualifier 4-1-0
(I played 22 lands – no mana issue)
R1: [Supreme blue 2-0] Wasteland+port = 90% of the job (helped by REB at the 2nd)
R2: [mono white control 2-0] 1st= good start. 2nd = I unlock the game (Cho-Manno, Revolutionary + Pariah) with Anarchy
R3: [pikula 1-2] 1st= good start. 2nd/3rd = locked by double Plague in spite of a lot a Chieftain
(Chieftain or Boartusk Liege is equal facing Swords to Plowshares, Gatekeeper of Malakir)
R4: [enchantress 2-1]
R5 [(final) same enchantress than R4 2-1] Lost the 1st = locked by “Solitary Confinement” 2nd/3rd = I unlock with Anarchy

Last chance tournament (win 0 toss) 4-3-0
(I played 22 lands – a lot of mulligans)
R1: [Ant 0-2] t3-t4 (For him the more blocking card is Mindbreak Trap)
R2: [Zoo 0-2] 2x mull 5 and him 2x t2 Sylvan Library
R3: [Canadian Threshold 2-0] (REB his stifle on my Wasteland + Rishadan)
R4: [Merfolk 2-0] piledriver + pyro
R5: [CounterBalance 2-0] tinkerer+REB
R6: [SneakAttack 1-2] win the 3rd with double port to avoid SneakAttack
R7: [Vengevine] 0-2

National final 4-2-1
(I played 23 lands and that seemed the minimal)
R1: [UWr standstill 2-0] 2x fast double piledriver
R2: [WU standstill 2-0] . I unlocked the 2nd with Anarchy
R3: [(CounterBalance ) 2-1 (gameloss for me)]
R4: [Big Zoo 0-2 (finalist)]
R5: [Survival Ug 0-2 (champion)]
R6: [UW control 2-1] 2nd-3rd, He locked me with Moat+Humility. I unlocked the 3rd with Anarchy
R7: [Vengevine GW 1-1]

Below my decks (15th mountain = 61th card)
15x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x AEther Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Goblin Piledriver
2x Goblin Chieftain
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Skirk Prospector
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Stingscourger
2x Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
1x Goblin Chieftain
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Anarchy
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pithing Needle
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
2x Pyrokinesis

Main:
- Mana denial = Half of the power of the deck
- Kiki is not a win more for me. It replaces the 3rd SGC which it searches by copy of Matron or Ringleader.. It generates eternal chumpblocker… Big list of uses
- Prospector. I will never cut it. Finisher with SGC + instant mana source for Bolt, gempalm or REB + let sacrificing blocker on attack with Jitte.
- Lightning Bolt. Help against Zoo + without Warren Weirding, Tarmo is often small enough + for killing me in early turn, ANT was 2x down to 2PV and I wanted to test bolt.

Side:
- Anarchy. Win 5 matches / 12 victory (each time I was locked and that was my only solution)
A true pleasure to see the head of my opponent when I played it !!
- Pithing Needle. Great ! Save me 2x versus Elspeth + many matchups
- REB. I won ALL my matches against blue based decks. CounterTop + merfolk + supreme.
2x I REB a stifle on my Wasteland = good start or REB a FOW on early lackey or vial
- Tinkerer. The eater of SDTop. With an active tinkerer, 2x I activated tinkerer to top in response of fetchland. Either the top is destroyed or is shuffled in library. Tinkerer is also efficient in response of the tap capability.

Idea: Do you think that is possible to make a deck more control with tinkerer + TSH and Liquimetal Coating?
That seems a solution to enchantments. Plague, survival, moat, humility..

[Hof]

@Wasteland:
The enemy fetchlands make it possibly for some decks to run much more resilient mana bases, especially blue-green decks can run Misty Rainforest instead of Flooded Strand or Delta. This does make a difference. Not only are these decks now more protected from color problems, sometimes they can build up a completely Waste-proof manabase, so they can also be Time Walk proof for the first 3-4 turns, and efter that it doesn't matter. Yes, the enemy fecthes do weaken Wasteland, which was to be expected, but not by much in my experience.

@Liquimetal Coating
Nice idea! Never saw that card before. The problem seems to be to draw and resolve the artifact itself when you need it. I might try Tinkerer with it, and not so much the Hooligan. The fact that the combo is never dead if you get it, and the ability to blow up anything, including enchantments and lands(!) repeatedly makes it worthy of consideration, even if it seems difficult to accomplish. A singleton Goblin Welder might help with stability.

[ScatmanX]

@ Morkus: Hi! Welcome to The Source.
Congratulations on your results, they were really good.
Have a question: How do you side against Merfolk? You bring in All ReBs, Knesis and Shooter? What do you take out?
Also, you didn't comment on the Vengevine MU. Was it that bad? What do you wish you had against them?

@idea: I don't think that it would be a great idea, since you cannot tutor for l.Coating, and it is very bad on its own...

[Morkus]

Thanks ScatmanX. Reading completely this thread was a great pleasure very intructive. And a very long experience :smile:
I think it would be better having a thread monored and another for splashed version.

@merfolk
-2 Mogg War Marshal
-2 Stingscourger
-2 Lightning Bolt
+4 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Pyrokinesis

@Vengevine = lot of tears
The tournament winner explosed me so easely !A baby gob in VV jungle
FOW -> Pithing needle / relic
T4 with 4x vengevine + 2x Basking Rootwalla :cry:
Even without misplay I don't see soluce

[Vandalize]

Perhaps R/B Lists are more effective against Vengevines. Perish is usually a great solution, and black splash has more gy denials like Planar Void and Leyline of the Void.

[GoboLord]

Perhaps R/B Lists are more effective against Vengevines. Perish is usually a great solution, and black splash has more gy denials like Planar Void and Leyline of the Void.

I don't think that Graveyardhate is effective against Vengevival (unless it's Extirpate). IMO we need to aim at their manabase Hierarch, Tropicals), so that they don't get to start their survival-chain.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Thanks ScatmanX. Reading completely this thread was a great pleasure very intructive. And a very long experience :smile:
I think it would be better having a thread monored and another for splashed version.

@merfolk
-2 Mogg War Marshal
-2 Stingscourger
-2 Lightning Bolt
+4 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Pyrokinesis

@Vengevine = lot of tears
The tournament winner explosed me so easely !A baby gob in VV jungle
FOW -> Pithing needle / relic
T4 with 4x vengevine + 2x Basking Rootwalla :cry:
Even without misplay I don't see soluce

That was barely English.
Also, don't aim for Heirarchs to beat Vengevine. Pithing Needle is a good, underrated start. And you can name Engineered Explosives or Deed.

[Zörg]

I don't think that Graveyardhate is effective against Vengevival (unless it's Extirpate). IMO we need to aim at their manabase Hierarch, Tropicals), so that they don't get to start their survival-chain.


So in a Mono Red goblin deck you would side in a couple of pyrokinesis instead of relics against Vengevival?

[GoboLord]

So in a Mono Red goblin deck you would side in a couple of pyrokinesis instead of relics against Vengevival?

Well it's not about Pyrokinesis OR Relics. If you have room for both of them you should side in both, cause relic help to fight Goyfs, too. Still I'd say that Pyrokinesis > Relics against Vengevival.

[claudio.r]

What's your opinion on Skirk Prospector ?

I'm enjoying playing those guys on my flexible slots, they go really well with mogg war marshall and my singleton sharpshooter. I currently running one copy, but i'm considering upping to 2 copies, so i can draw into naturally and with ringleader more often.

What's your opinion on the guy ?

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

I'm busy with my German Goblin-Primer. I want to write something about Goblin's MUs and that's what I intended to write. I Want you to comment on the Key-Cards, not on the Win-Percentages, cause they are calculated and therefore not debateable for me. Maybe this overview can contribute something to this thread too.

Here we go:

Merfolk
Win-Percentage: 60%
Key-Cards: AEther Vial, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Ringleader, Siege-Gang Commander
Key-Cards (Other): AEther Vial, Coralhelm Commander, Mutavalt, Umezawa’s Jitte

Zoo
Win-Percentage: 48%
Key-Cards: Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Siege-Gang Commander, Removal
Key-Cards (Other): Grim Lavamancer, Tarmogoyf, Removal

Aggro Loam
Win-Percentage: 47%
Key-Cards: Warren Weirding, Stingscourger, Graveyard-Hate, Siege-Gang Commander
Key-Cards (Other): Devastating Dreams, Life from the Loam, Dark Confidant, Seismic Assault

Rock
Win-Percentage: 57%
Key-Cards: AEther Vial, Wasteland/Rishadan Port, Siege-Gang Commander/Mogg War Marshal, Gobin Ringleader
Key-Cards(Other): Dark Confidant, Knight of the Reliquary, Hymn to Tourarch, Thoughtseize, Enineered Plague

Threshold
WP: 45%
KC: Aether Vial, Wasteland/Rishadan Port, Mogg War Marshal/Siege-Gang Commander, Gravehate
KCO: Nimble Mongoose, Stifle, Wasteland, Vendilion Clique

Survival
WP: 29%
KC: Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, Goblin Ringleader, Removal
KCO: Survival of the Fittest, Birds of Paradise/Noble Hierarch, Loyal Retainers/Iona, Squee

Vengevival
WP: 45%
KC: Removal, Removal, Wasteland/Rishadan Port, Removal, Goblin Ringleader
KCO: Survival of the Fittest, Bords of Paradise/Noble Hierarch, basic Forest, Wonder

Bant (-Aggro/-Countertop/-NO)
WP: 64%
KC: Goblin Lackey, AEther Vial, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Piledriver
KCO: Rhox War Monk, Swords to Plowshares, Stoneforge Mystic, evtl. Progenitus

Dread (-nought/-still)
WP: 39%
KC: AEther Vial, Stingscourger, Artifact Removal, Wasteland/Rishadan Port
KCO: Stifle, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Spell Snare, Trinket Mage

Enchantress
WP: 41%
KC: Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Siege-Gang Commander, Enchantment Removal
KCO: Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl, Arghotian Enchantress, Solitary Confinement, Moat, Elephant Grass

Lands
WP: 53%
KC: Goblin Lackey, Wasteland/Rishadan Port, Gravehate, Goblin Piledriver
KCO: Life from the Loam, Exploration, Manabond, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith

Landstill
WP: 57%
KC: Goblin Lackey, AEther Vial, Wasteland/Rishadan Port, Siege-Gang Commander
KCO: Mishra’s Factory, Wrath of God, Humility, Elspeth Knight Errant, Decree of Justice

Ubx Stormcombo
WP: 41%
KC: Wasteland/Rishadan Port, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Siege-Gang Commander, Combo-Hate
KCO: Brainstorm, Sensei’s Divining Top, Basiclands

Belcher
WP: 22%
KC: Lackey, Piledriver, SGC, Combo-Hate
KCO: Empty the Warrens, Goblin Charpelcher

Dredge
WP: 52%
KC: Mogg War Marshal, Stingscourger, Siege-Gang Commander, Gravehate
KCO: Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapy, Ichorid

Mono Black
WP: 54%
KC: Goblin Chieftain, Goblin Ringleader, Removal
KCO: Removal, Engineered Plague, Vampire Nighthawk, Hymn to Tourarch

[BWM]

Assuming a list consisting of a combination of
Lackey
Instigitator
Matron
Incinerator
Warchief
Chieftain
Ringleader
Liege
Siegegang
Stingscourger
Piledriver
Mogg warmarshal
These goblins are all regularly-always played in monored, which is what I have experience with

Zoo
Key-Cards: Mogg War Marshall

Aggro Loam
Win-Percentage: 47% -> No way, I know you didn't want comments on the percentages, but this can't be true. Must be much lower.

Vengevival
KC: Pithing Needle

Dread (-nought/-still)
KCO: Stifle, I wouldn't put Stifle on their list. I would put Engineered Explosives on it though

Lands
KC: Goblin Piledriver -> Tabernacle and Maze of Ith make this guy look silly. I rather have wastelands, Chieftains or Lieges in this matchup.

Landstill
KCO: Moat!

Ubx Stormcombo
KC: Instigator; Warchief

Belcher
KC: Piledriver, this can't be right. Pithing Needle though!

You forgot

BUG-landstill
WP: 60%
KC: Warchief; Chieftain; Ringleader; Pithing Needle; Wasteland
KCO: Deed; Mishra's Factory

Goblins
WP: 50% (obviously)
KC: Lackey; Removal; Chieftain; Ringleader

Also, you forgot either Countertop or Tempo ********, I assume the first.

[Caspid]

MWM for Zoo
WW for Dread, Enchantress, Survival, and Dredge - basically anywhere a big creature (ie Iona, Nought, Progenitus) might show up by themselves.
I noticed "enchantment removal", "combo hate", etc. Are you including sideboard cards? Things like Extirpate, Needle, and gy hate for Survival, etc
Lightning Crafter anywhere there's a Moat

also, are you missing the mirror?
Goblins
WP: 50%
KC: Sharpshooter, Chieftain, Lightning Crafter, Pyrokinesis

Might I suggest adding information on the less-useful cards as well, and just turn it into a general sideboarding guide?

[bloodbrother]

a well timed sharpshooter is game ending in the goblin mirror. i remember when goblins still dominated legacy, sharpshooters are even 3-4 of in the main. mirror games becomes a struggle on who resolves an unanswered sharpshooter. sharpshooter is to goblins as jitte is to zoo/merfolk.

[Justin]

Sharpshooter can still be good in the mirror and other aggro matches, but it is weaker than it was a few years ago. The printing of Goblin Chieftain, as well as other tribal lords makes it much less lethal.

[Tacosnape]

Goblins' Mirror is rarely 50-50. The match becomes heavily skewed almost immediately based on one of two things:

1. Who wins the die roll. (You're about +25% if you do)
2. Whether or not you splash black. (You're about -15% if you do)

The biggest key cards in the Goblin Mirror aren't Sharpshooter or Gempalm Incinerator. It's Goblin Lackey. Modern Goblins lists are probably the worst deck in the format at handling a turn one Lackey, ironically enough. Thank the nerfing of combat damage using the stack for this, as it forced Mogg Fanatic out of the deck. Beyond Lackey, Gempalm, Sharpshooter, and Pyrokinesis are the biggest difference makers.

EDIT: Also, Warren Weirding's pretty hot against Dredge, too.

[ScatmanX]

So, after playing my ass off and tunning na UGB Landstill deck, I went back where I belong, and decided to play Goblins in Brazilian Natz, going 5-2. Jim Davis’s list inspired me and, after some talk with Gobolord, I ended up playing this:

// Lands
6 [9E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Taiga
3 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
1 [M11] Goblin Chieftain
1 [EVG] Skirk Prospector
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [AT] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

The deck was simply great. I would not change anything MD, and would encourage people to try 1 Sharpshooter (very good) and 1 Prospector (just amazing). Try Watching Jim Davis videos on GGSLive, on the 5k Boston (there are 2 of them), to see how they really work.

Match 1: Pablo – Uwb Merfolk

Game1 – My Vial resolves, while I kill his guys with Bolt and Gempalm. He has no Vial, so I can just remove everything he has.
Game 2 – I start some beating, and he plays a T4 E.Plague. I thought he was only Uw, so no Claim this game… Still, I manage to gather Warchief, 2 Ringleaders, and 1 Piledriver, but he has Mutavault, and some swings from some 3-2 folks just kill me…
Game 3 – I get Vial, but cannot keep him off black, since he draws 3 Wastelands… He gets 2 Plagues here. I get to destroy one, but then he lands another… GG.
0-1

Match 2: Tiago – UGB Landstill

Game1 – I mull to 4, and actually do quite some damage, doing T1 Vial, with Waste, but cannot keep up after he Deeds…
Game 2 – Was very unfair. Vial got me Lackey, Piledriver, Warmarchall and Warchief. He had to blow Deed for 1, leaving me with Warchief, Piledriver and the Warmarchall Token, that was exactly what I needed to win.
Game 3 – Also, really one-sided. Vial + Wastes and Ports ruined him. Ended up with Claim and ReB on my hand, and an army on the battlefield.
1-1

Match 3: Irineu – Enchantress

Game 1 – I know what he is playing, so mull into a Lackey hand. I cast it, and he cast Mirri’s Guile. Lackey connects and I Matron for Piledriver, that hits play (mistake. Should have gone for SGC or Sharpshooter). He cast Elephant Grass and that 1 mana enchantament. I hit with Lackey again, getting not much from a Ringleader. He does nothing much, while I beat him to 9, when he cast Solitary Confinement. Too bad for him, he only had 1 Presence out, and 4 mana, so his “lock” was doomed. I get to cast a SGC and a Prospector. He eventually had to let Confinement go, and played Replenish. I sac all my dudes, and kill him.
Game 2 – He start with mana enchantament, then get Elephant Grass. I kept a hand with Vial, Waste, 2 Ports, and some dudes. My waste hits a Savannah, while Port keep him from getting any mana, since he only got 3 in the game. My army took him from 17 to 0 in one swing.
2-1

Match 4: Frodo – Slivers (not Meathooks)

Game 1: I thought it was going to be easy, but turns out, quite difficult for us. We both start with vial, but I had just 1 land. I got a Warmarchall, and then Matron for Prospector. He, with 3 lords on the table, Paths him, and in response, I get to Gempalm one of them. Later, some chump blocking kill and a Bolt kill the other 2, while he gets me to 5 life. 2 Ringleaders win me the game after.
Game 2: He leads with Vial, and I don’t. I do cast a T2 Tin-Street, but he Vials that mana producing Sliver, and gets 2 lords and a Crystalline Sliver. I chump the Crystalline, but at 2 life, there was not much I could do…
Game 3: Vial on both sides again. I just remember using Knesis in response to 2 Vial triggers, killing 2 guys both times. After we both go on topdeck mode while both with 16 or 15 life, Goblins simply topdecks better than just any other deck.
3-1

Match 5 – Gabriel - Bant with Leonin Arbiter

Game 1: I mull to 4, and he actually takes something like 8 rounds to kill me, since Goyf #1 dies to Bolt, and Warmachall blocks like a champ. Couldn’t ever turn the tables though…
Game 2: I just remember Knesis getting rid of Noble and Arbiter, and Bolt killing a Relicary. Then I bash 15 in one hit.
Game 3: Really one sided again. He has Noble, I have Lackey. He plays land, I swing, get StP’d, and play Port. He plays Leonin. I Bolt Leonin, Fetch, and Port him. He plays Relicary. I Bolt both his dudes, and keep him off green. I play Warchieff, Prospector and Piledriver and Warmarchall, while he plays Jitte (that didn’t scared me at all, due to Prospector), and a Rhox Warmon. I Knesis the Monk and hit. He plays Goy, but I really don’t care, swinging for the win next turn.
4-1

Match 6 – Jabaiano – Ooze Survival

Game 1: I play lackey go. He Seizes me, seing Gempalm, Warchief, Matron, Warmarchall, and lands, taking Matron. I hit and play Port. He play land. I draw nothing and hit. He eot cast Tutor for Survival, and play his turn. I draw nothing and hit. He does nothing. I draw nothing and hit. He does some Survival shenanigans, kill my Warchief, and Ooze me next turn. Have I drawn ANY goblin in these 3 turns, I’d have won, but I only got a SGC after he killed my Warchief…
Game 2: He leads with Noble, me with Needle for Survival. He plays Fauna Shaman. I play Piledriver. He eot searches for Jitte. Hist turn he does some shenanigans with that another elf, and hit me. I Claim Jitte, and he gets some Vengevines on the grave. His turn he still can’t get the Vines online, so I double Waste him, leaving him without lands, only needing Knesis to clear his board. He draws a land, does stuff with elfs, and get Vengevines. I get to Claim my needle to buy me a turn, but he kills me shortly.
4-2

Match 7 – Leandro – Dark Depths

Game 1: I have only Vial, Lackey, Ringleader and lands. He Seizes my Lackey and, after turn 4, he realizes his mistake. I Bolt a Bob, and than just get all the goblins I need.
Game 2: He plays Top, I play Lackey. He plays Maze of Ith, I play Lackey. He plays Goy, I play Lackey, and prey for him to not have a Plague yet. He doesn’t. I play Warchief and Piledriver, and hit with everything. He Maze the Driver, and block Warchief, letting 3 Lackeys connect. 1 Matron, and I search for Gempalm, killing Goyf, another for Chieftain, to do not die against Plague, and the last gets me Ringleader, netting me Sharpshooter, to get rid of his Bob. Game pretty much ended there.
5-2

After all, the deck only disappointed me when I got unlucky as hell. Guess that happens… In the end I didn’t even saw my ending standings…
2 of My teammates dot to top8, so we got quite some duals anyway =]
Well, that’s it. Next time, I’ll probably try monored, with freaking Blood Moons, to nail those shitty manabase decks, and maybe drop grave-hat altogether.

[antonbystedt]

Grats to your placing ScatmanX!

Your MD is identical to mine, but what do you think about not playing black? Also, you didn't meet that much Survival, have you had any other experience against that deck? Also, how do you sideboard against it?
I play 3 Pyrokinesis, 3 Relic of Progenitus and 3 Krosan Grips that i want to sideboard in, but that would not be good at all, so i basicly need to know how to SB against it, im struggling with that :P

And at last, do you have the links to when Jim Davis are playing, can't seem to find them. EDIT: (Found the videos nvm)

Good luck in the future!

[GoboLord]

Hey my dear Goblin Lackeys, here is another tournament report of mine.

EVENT: Dutch Champs 2010
LOCATION: Eindhoven
RESULT: 5th-8th
LIST: Mono R

//Lands [22]
15 Mountain, 4 Wasteland, 3 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2SGC

//Flex-Slots [12]
4 GI, 3 L-Bolt, 1 Stingscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice otV
4 Leyline otV
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Here goes the report.

Round 1: Eva Green
Game 1: I go first with MLG (Mountain, Lackey, Go). He drops a Swamp and passes. Lackey connects on turn 2 and 3, bringing in 2 SGCs. (1-0)

IN: Tuktuk; Liege
OUT: MWM, GI

Game 2: He draws nothing but lands, Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker (all of them fall prey to my removal in EOT. My manadenial can keep him on “Eva Black” all the time. Double Piledriver + SGC finish him off. He didn’t find a single copy of his 4 E-Plagues. (2-0)


1-0-0


Round 2: Eva “White” (don’t know the name. Same deck as in R1 only that Maelstrom Pulse = Vindicate and Tarmogoyf = Swords to Plowshares)
Game 1: I go first with MLG. Finish her off on turn 4 seeing nothing but Dark Confidant and lands. (1-0)

IN: Tuktuk; Liege
OUT: MWM, GI

Game 2: She has T1 Thoughtseize (@ Lackey), T2 Hymn to Tourarch (@ Ringleader&Matron), T3 E-Plague, T4 E-Plague, T5 Vindicate (@Vial). (1-1)

Game 3: She takes mulligan down to 4 keepin a hand with 1 land (=Wasteland). Lackey + double Piledriver end the misery. (2-1)


2-0-0


Round 3: Wb Infinite Life.combo
Great list! Actually unwinable for Goblins, cause he has many cheap blockers and they are virtually immune to my removal. Plus he had 2 Combo Lifegenerators (Sanctuary and Condemn), which I found great.
Game 1: He is on 5 and has Infinite life on turn 7-8 with Condemn. (0-1)

IN: 4 Chalice otV
OUT: 3 L-Bolt, 1 GI

Game 2: I drop Ch@lice.1 in turn 2 before he has any non-landpermanent. He scoops. (1-1)

IN: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper (cause I saw Shuko)
OUT: 1 GI

Game 3: He spams lots of blockers, while I have a slow start with Vial + 3 MWM. I drop Ch@lice.1 and Ch@lice.2. My Ringleader reveals 2 Lackey and 2 Piledriver – FAIL. He had 20 lifes, tons of blockers and Ghostly Prisons. My only possibility was to burn him down with SGC (remember: I had 9 tokens from MWM) before he draws his Life-Land. Luckily I did. 4 turns of EOT: 6 damage followed. (2-1)


3-0-0


Round 4: TES feat. Ad Nauseam (eventually 2nd placed.)
Game 1: I keep a hand with Mountain, Wasteland, 2 Piledrivers, 2 Warchief, 1 GI. He goes first with City of Brass, Go. I play Wasteland @ City, he has Brainstorm in response to find lands. It turned out to be a poor move of mine, cause he hand like 4 lands in the rest of the game, while I didn’t draw a second one before he went off via Ad Nauseam. (0-1)

IN: 4 Chalice
OUT: 3 L-Bolt, 1 Stingscourger

Game 2: I start with Lackey on turn 1 and Ch@lice.1 on turn 2. He plays Burning Wish @ Shattering Spree. In the following turns my Wastelands + Port don’t let him have RR. He is finally able to get rid of my Chalice and goes off via Ad Nauseam on 8 Life, revealing Empty the Warrens, Infernal tutor and Cabal Ritual. (1-1)

Game 3: I keep a hand that’s able to kill on T3 and with some manadenial, without Chalice. He goes first with City of Brass, Go. I play MLG. He misses a land-drop, my chance to waste his City away. 2 turns later he is on 10, I control SGC and 2 untapped Mountains. He goes off via Ad Nauseam again (cause he hasn’t enough mana for Iggy). He reveals some stuff until he is down to 3 Life. *Thinking* He needs 2 more mana: Cabal Ritual, LED or 2 Lotus Petal. He reveals Cabal Rit. Bringing him down to 1 life. In response n his first spell I kill him with SGC. (2-1)


4-0-0


Round 5 – Ub Merfolk
He sits down and says: “Well…4-0-0, he? You do understand that I can’t let a German win a Dutch tournament? I’m sorry but your luck will end here.”
Game 1: I go first with Mountain, Vial, Go. In the course of the game he has Jitte since turn 3 and beats me with his equipped Mutavault several times. He uses 6 Counters to destroy 2 Piledrivers and 1 Warchief. Then my Vial finally has 5 counters. I play Matron @ SGC. From this point on his Jitte is useless, cause I can just block the equipped creature + sacrifice before damage. (1-0)

IN: 3 Pyrokinesis, 1 Boartusk Liege, 1 Tuktuk
OUT: 3 L-Bolt, 1 Stingscourger, 1 MWM

He goes wild with Lords + Mutavault, while I have 2 Piledrivers in play. The funny thing is: he didn’t get that his Mutavault isn’t blue and therefore a threat to my Pile-Brothers. So he uses his mana to pump Coralhelm Commander. Then suddenly he launches for an all-in attack ( my Piledrivers were tapped). Again he made a mistake: his guys did 15 damage if unblocked. I were on 16 Life. Since he hadn’t any mana or Vial to do nasty tricks I took the 15 damage, killing him one turn later. (2-0)


5-0-0


Round 6 – Uw(b?) Thopter Combo
Game 1: I go first with MLG, he has Swords to Plowshares. On turn 2 I play Lackey, + Wasteland @ Tundra. Lackey + SGC + Piledriver finish him off on turn 3. (1-0)

IN: 4 Chalice, Tuktuk Scrapper
OUT: 3 L-Bolt, 1 GI, 1 Stingscourger

Game 2: He can answer every single threat of mine. I can disrupt his combo with Tuktuk @ Foundry. Then he drops Moat, then Elspeth and has Counterbackup for SGC (1-1)

Game 3: I am able to kill him very fast, starting with Vial, then Vial + Wasteland. One turn short from losing he plays E.Tutor @ CoP: Red in EOT (because my Port was able to lock his 2nd white mana). SGC with Haste is too much for CoP: Red. (2-1)


6-0-0


Round 7: Ooze Survival aka. "Odd Mutation"
I can’t draw into top 8 cause my opponent has 5-0-1)
Game 1: I win because he fucked up his combo. This is what happened: Triskelion + Devourer were in graveyard, Ooze in play. He removes the top card of his Lib: Necrotic Ooze. Then he announces that he uses the 4 counters to deal 4 damage to my lifes. A spectator calls a judge, cause his Ooze should die from the counters (power is >7). That’s what happened. I launch for an attack to kill him on the next turn. (1-0)

IN: 4 Leyline, 3 Pyrokinesis
OUT: don’t know, sry

Game 2: The extra turns were announced when we began, but we had 11 minutes left because of the Judgecall+interview. I did my best to stall him out, intending to win 1-0. He finishes my off 1 minute before our extra turns were announced. We didn’t start G3, cause 1-1 was enough for me here. (1-1)


6-0-1


Round 8: The Rock (eventually Top 8)

We draw without playing, cause both of us are tired after 9 hours of playing.

Relaxed but tired I made it into my first Top-8-single-elimination ever.

Top 8: Robbin with “NLANT” aka “praticaljoe” (eventually Dutch Champ) aka “The ben&Jerry’s Cowboy”
Game 1: I don’t know what I’m up against (he does). I keep a rather slow hand with Vial, 2 Wasteland, Port + X. My Wastelands were useless, cause he fetched on basiclands only. He goes of via Iggy. (0-1)

Game 2: I mull down to 5 (cause I hadn’t a single land in both hands) keeping a hand with Mountain, Wasteland, Vial and Gempalm Incinerator. Later I topdeck Chalice and set it @ 1. On his next turn he play 3 Lotus Petal and 2 LED and goes off – FAIL. (0-2)


CONS:
* Didn’t play the mirrormatch, although everyone told me that Goblins are omnipresent in the Netherlands
* Prices were rather poor (reffering to quality, quantity and condition)
* didn’t meet a single nonblack deck

PROS
* 2 Germans made it to top 8 (and had a rather good overall performance)
* the first time playing Mono R since 2 years, and I like it: I didn’t miss neither Perish nor Nature’s Claim
* my first top-8-single-elimination-experience
* got to speak Dutch in 8 of the 9 matches (and it seemed to be quite understandable :-D)
* met some folks from Team Nijmegen (the city I’m studying in)

Conclusions:
I will stick to Mono R cause I simply liked being Wasteland-proof. After some talk with ScatmanX I decided to test Goblin Sharpshooter + Skirk Prospector tech, only that I don’t know what to kick for them yet. Suggestions are appreciated (see list above).

Thanks for reading my report!

[Odd Mutation]

So you're GoboLord... :)


Round 7: Ooze Survival
I can’t draw into top 8 cause my opponent has 5-0-1)
Game 1: I win because he fucked up his combo.

There's just no other way to dedscribe it, is there? :)
That fuckup cost me top 8.

Congrats on the finish and sorry again for the mess. I was dead tired, a million thoughts and calculations running through my head and too many people around. I messed up, couldn't even remember that I shot you the damage (didn't write it down in my notes either), wanted to respond to the ability with other activiations but instead killed my tournament.

See you another time!

Robrecht

[ScatmanX]

@antonbystedt: Black is just bad right now. Perish and Wort are too slow, and Extirpate is not needed.
I would not play Relic nor K.Grip against UGmadness. Grip is just too slow (I prefer Nature's Claim), and Relic is just bad. We shouldn't fight the graveyard. Knesis are awesome. They ensure Lackey connects, and are always 2for2 at least here. I bring in 3 Knesis, 3 Needles, 3 Claim against them, and never lost. I'm currently thinking about trying monored, so Claims will be gone, and I'll see how it goes.

@GobboLord: Talk about tough Matchups!
You did extremely well considering your opponents.
Did you think the Ooze Survival MU was that bad? I need to practice it further...
Was casting Scrapper ever an issue?
Having "only" 1 Liege and 1 Chieftain to fight E.Plague made you worry about it sometime, or you think it is enough?
Contragtz!

[GoboLord]

@GobboLord: Talk about tough Matchups!
You did extremely well considering your opponents.
Did you think the Ooze Survival MU was that bad? I need to practice it further...
Was casting Scrapper ever an issue?
Having "only" 1 Liege and 1 Chieftain to fight E.Plague made you worry about it sometime, or you think it is enough?
Contragtz!

Funny thing that our MD is nearly identical and that we both got to meet an rather unexpected Survival-deck (remember? we talked about dealing with GW, GU and GB Vengevival, not considering the Ooze combo). I still can't say whether it's good or not. Until last sunday I didn't even know how the combo works (and that should be a basis for knowing where to disrupting them). I guess it's easier once we know what they can do enable the combo. I made the mistake of not burning down his Birds of Paradise in my turn (which he could double-tap for BB with Quirion Ranger). I believe that pyrokinesis + Sharphooter can be really killer in this MU. Right now I consider it a tough MU, still not as tough as GU Vengevival (still scared of those flying Vengevines).

Scrapper has never been an Issue. I got to board it twice, used it once (against Thopter Foundry) where I just had to prey my opponent's counters with some less limportant goblins.

Abou E-Plague: 3 of the 9 decks boarded it. Although it only hit the floor in G2 of Eva White it woul have never been gamebreaking since I almost always had Liege and/or Matron as backup to react on that. Especially in Merfolk Plague will only become a problem if they hav 2 or more. A singleton Plague never kills you. Therefore I think it's enough. Liege and Chieftain are also nice in he mirror btw.

Thanks for the congratz.

Let's turn to your report, I got some question for you too.

(1) Can you remember what you sideboard plans were? I like to hear them.

(2) Do you have a certain strategy for beating Enchantress? I mean you just blow that guy 2-0 without using Nature's Claim. btw Nice move in Round 6, when you blew up your own Needle to gain life. I o the same thing with Chalice + Claim against combo. I just love this card.

(3) Has Leonin Arbiter interrupted your gameplan? I mean, you got to burn that fucker down anyways, but I want to know if you needed to search your library or just get rid of another blocker. If Arbiter didnt disrupt you, then I'd try to keep him in play as long as possible, cause he's problematic for you opponents too.

[BWM]

Round 4: TES feat. Ad Nauseam aka “Roelke”, eventually 2nd placed.
Game 1: I keep a hand with Mountain, Wasteland, 2 Piledrivers, 2 Warchief, 1 GI. He goes first with City of Brass, Go. I play Wasteland @ City, he has Brainstorm in response to find lands. It turned out to be a poor move of mine, cause he hand like 4 lands in the rest of the game, while I didn’t draw a second one before he went off via Ad Nauseam. (0-1)

<...>

CONS:
* Didn’t play the mirrormatch, although everyone told me that Goblins are omnipresent in the Netherlands

<...>

* met some folks from Team Nijmegen (the city I’m studying in)

* That's not Roelke, Roelke was one of the judges.
* There were 17 Goblin-decks in the tournament (on 207 players). The best one after you finished 54.
* Like Robbin?

[ScatmanX]

Let's turn to your report, I got some question for you too.

(1) Can you remember what you sideboard plans were? I like to hear them.

(2) Do you have a certain strategy for beating Enchantress? I mean you just blow that guy 2-0 without using Nature's Claim. btw Nice move in Round 6, when you blew up your own Needle to gain life. I o the same thing with Chalice + Claim against combo. I just love this card.

(3) Has Leonin Arbiter interrupted your gameplan? I mean, you got to burn that fucker down anyways, but I want to know if you needed to search your library or just get rid of another blocker. If Arbiter didnt disrupt you, then I'd try to keep him in play as long as possible, cause he's problematic for you opponents too.

1- Let's see if I recall:
Uwb Merfolk: G2 - +3 Kneis, +2 ReB ; -3 MWM, -2 Bolt _ G3: +3 Claim ; -1 Bolt, -1 SGC, -1 Prospector i guess...
Landstill: +3 Claim, +2 ReB ; -3 Bolt, -2 Gempalm;
Enchantress: +3 Claim ; -3 Gemapalm
Slivers: +3 Knesis, +1 TSH ; -2 Piledriver, -1 Bolt, -1 MWM.
Bant: +3 Knesis ; -1 Chieftain, -1 Piledriver, -1 SGC.
Ooze (what I should have done): +3 Knesis; +3 Needle, +3 Claim ; -3 MWM, -1 Chieftain, -2 Ringleader, -1 SGC, -1 Prospector, -1 Incinerator.
Dark Depths: +3 Needle ; -3 MWM.

Against Ooze, I think we can pretty much kill all of their dudes if they don't have Survival out. Even if they do, we need to keep them short of mana, so they don't get to abuse it.

2 - I just mulled g1 into a Lackey hand, and got lucky. G2 I kept a Vial hand, very controlling with 2 Ports and a Waste (and was luck enough for him to draw that single Savannah). Also, when Elephant Grass hits play, Port becomes way more awesome, since we can use it AFTER he pays for the Upkeep cost. If he asks you something like during his upkeep: "Do you want to Tap anything?", that means he passed priority to you. So, if you chose not to tap anything, you move on to his Draw Step, and Elephant Grass go to the graveyard.
Also, when playing Enchantress, or any deck, always play the hole game (unless time is running out). There was a time when my opponent simply drew a card at Draw Step, with Confinement in play. When he attempted his 1st spell, I reminded that Confinement should be in his grave, and burnt him out.

3 - Leonin did exactly nothing. I aways had removal for him, since he is a lousy 2/2. I don't see he becoming a problem for us. Not in that shell. He may become way scarier when coupled with Aether Vial, since him coming ITB in response to a fetch/matron can be devastating. When we see it coming, not so much...

[Roel]

Hey there goblinlord! I'm the TeS player from round 4 (my only loss in the swiss was to you). It's funny that we said we would see each other in the top8 again. Congrats on your finish and have fun with my signed card.

[practical joke]

* Like Robbin?

Someone mentions my name...

Don't bother to much about the loss in the T8, it's an extremely good match-up for me.
your first hand was quite slow, but wasn't a bad hand for a random opponent.
We had a good talk about it afterwards :)
The only thing that would've been scary was a mountain, lackey - > GO

[dethangel666]

what are the some of the advantage of monored goblin vs goblin splash black or green?

[ScatmanX]

what are the some of the advantage of monored goblin vs goblin splash black or green?

You don't get hit by cards like Wasteland and Stifle, and you don't lose life due to Fetchlands.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

what are the some of the advantage of monored goblin vs goblin splash black or green?

Mono Red isn't crippled by Wasteland, where splash colors and get wasted out. It's stronger in the mirror match because of this.

Green gets you Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim and Tin Street Hooligan.

Black gets you Warren Weirding, Extirpate and Perish/Nature's Ruin.

Red doesn't get fun sideboard toys.

[Muradin]

RG Goblins with some Tin Street Hooligans maindeck and 4 Gempalm Incinerator is definitely the best variant for the mirror, as it has a stable manabase with 2 Taigas and gains an edge by removing your opponent's Vials via Hooligan.

[partyx2000]

Hey guys,

Can I get some critque on my decklist please and see what people would do differently...

Artifact - 4

4x Aether Vial

Sorcery - 3

3x Warren Weirding

Land - 23

2x Wooded Foothills
3x Badlands
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Bloodstained Mire
6x Mountain


Creatures - 30

1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x Stingscourger
2x Siege-Gang Commander
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader

Sideboard - 15

1x Nature's Ruin
2x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Leyline of the Void

Does anyone see any major issues? I'm most concerned about the SB...

Cheers

[Nidd]

Sideboard - 15

1x Nature's Ruin
2x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Leyline of the Void

Does anyone see any major issues? I'm most concerned about the SB...
Without knowing anything about your meta, I can't really help you.

Or do you need a SB for an unknown Meta?

[partyx2000]

an unkown Meta would probably be best as I play at a few different places where the decks obviously vary quite alot... However, the store I normally play at is control / combo heavy...

[Nidd]

an unkown Meta would probably be best as I play at a few different places where the decks obviously vary quite alot... However, the store I normally play at is control / combo heavy...
Going into an unknown Meta, I'd use something along these lines:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Extirpate
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Boartusk Liege

I don't think Nature's Claim is that necessary. You can use a mixture of Pyrokinesis, Peedle and Extirpate to disrupt Survival, can play Chalice and Extirpate against combo, have Boartusk Liege (and possibly Peedle and Extirpate) against Control and your other MUs shouldn't be that bad, judging from your list.

If Zoo is prevalent in your area, you should try to fit in some MWM, they are pretty good. As you play 3 Chieftain, they'll often be 4 power for 2 mana on 2 bodies, plus they help surviving against other Aggro decks.

[partyx2000]

3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Boartusk Liege



So would these cards alone help in the mirror? Or if I was certain to face a mirror would it be better to add either Goblin Sharpshooter or Lightning Crafter??

[Amon Amarth]

So would these cards alone help in the mirror? Or if I was certain to face a mirror would it be better to add either Goblin Sharpshooter or Lightning Crafter??

Sharpshooter definitely, Crafter not so much.

[JonBarber]

1x Wort, Boggart Auntie


I'm personally not a big fan of this guy. He's bad in your bad matchups and good in your matchups you should already be winning. Prime example of a win more.

[HelloHero]

Has anyone tried Assault Strobe?
Also, how viable is Prospector + Sharpshooter combo?

[ScatmanX]

Has anyone tried Assault Strobe?
Also, how viable is Prospector + Sharpshooter combo?

If Assault Strobe was good, people would be playing Berserk in the G splash a long time ago...

Prospector and Sharpshooter are 2 cards that function very well without another in the metagame.
It happens that they work great togheter (specially along with Mogg Warmarchall), so I suggest people to try them out.

[Dino]

Has anyone tried Assault Strobe?
Also, how viable is Prospector + Sharpshooter combo?

assault strobe seems horrible, only good on a large piledriver when they have no blockers. It's a sorcer, and it's not a goblin.

[bakofried]

In an effort to keep an open mind, what is the deal with "Skirk Prospector tech?" What does he do that makes him worth playing? (if I hear Kiki-combo someone will lose an earlobe)

[dethangel666]

i need to know to sideboard in and to sideboard out for the following decks
Dredge
Survival Vengevine
Merfolk
Countertop 4C
Zoo
Goblins
Tes
Lands

[Amon Amarth]

In an effort to keep an open mind, what is the deal with "Skirk Prospector tech?" What does he do that makes him worth playing? (if I hear Kiki-combo someone will lose an earlobe)

I saw some of Jim Davis' games last SCG Open and Prospecter definitely mattered. One game he killed his opponent with this awesome tutor chain with MWM and stuff that he couldn't have done without it. Also he combos very well with SGC and Sharpshooter. Hell, he is even really good against Dredge.

[P-AiR]

Hey,

Local legacy tournament tomorrow and the deck I have right now is a version of G.Lord's shown below. Even though I was able to split the finals during the previous one, I believe that my MUs were in my favor and I didn't play against anything that I shouldn't have plowed over except the last match: Bant ctrl, Goblins, Burn, Enchantress.

The list that I used:

Lands
8 Waste / Port
4 Mountain
2 Taiga, 2 Badlands
2 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire

Core Gobs
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Matron, Warchief, Ringleader, 2 SGC

Other
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm
2 Stingscourger
3 MWM
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

SB
3 Leyline otV
3 Chalice otV
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
3 Nature's Claim

Wanted to explore a few options but I thought I'd discuss it here:
Prospector + Sharpshooter: We've been discussing about it quite frequently in the last few pages of this thread. I admit, I have yet watched the Boston 5k video of how it was used. What would you recommend taking out from my list to make room for the two? Tin-street + ?
Mono / RG / RGB: I loved using tri color, it gave me so many options and tools in the board against all MUs. But if I do use prospector and sharpshooter, would tri color be a bit of a stretch?
Pithing Needle: I want to include it in the board but I'm not quite sure what to take out for it from the sb. There are many answers for Survival in the board: leyline/perish/nature's claim/pithing needle/pyrokinesis - however, I doubt anyone would side in all of those. It's been echoed in the previous pages that we shouldn't move away from what we do best - overrun them with goblins. I'm sure there's a point that I would be overboarding. What would you side in with my cards? I do not know what the MD is like, there are always random decks popping up at the store. I would love to have a well rounded SB, being able to take care a wide range of decks.
Extirpate: has anyone tried it in the board? It's great against many decks especially vengevine but would you run it?

[partyx2000]

@ScatManx

Are you able to post the link to where the Jim Davis vids are... I cant seem to find them...

Cheers

[GoboLord]

Wanted to explore a few options but I thought I'd discuss it here:
Prospector + Sharpshooter: We've been discussing about it quite frequently in the last few pages of this thread. I admit, I have yet watched the Boston 5k video of how it was used. What would you recommend taking out from my list to make room for the two? Tin-street + ?
I discussed this point with Scatman an he told suggested not to play Stingscourger. SO I'd just kick those 2 Scourgers for Skirk Prospector + Shooter (that's actually the removal-package that Scat and I run). Skirk is incredibly good if you are playing with Lightning Bolt, cause you dont have to leave lands untapped for it. Tin-Street in MD is just killer if you want to fight Jitte. Actually could also cange TSH for Goblin Chieftain (to have an tutorable answer to E-Plague), because Skirk Prospector gives you another card to fight Jitte (block + sacrifice before damage).



Mono / RG / RGB: I loved using tri color, it gave me so many options and tools in the board against all MUs. But if I do use prospector and sharpshooter, would tri color be a bit of a stretch?
Being 3-colored has got nothing to do with running Skirk + Shooter tech. It's just fine if you use them. I guess especially Skirk Prospector does well in lists with Wastelands + Port, cause he provides you with R mana no matter how many Pors/Wastes you have.


Pithing Needle: I want to include it in the board but I'm not quite sure what to take out for it from the sb. There are many answers for Survival in the board: leyline/perish/nature's claim/pithing needle/pyrokinesis - however, I doubt anyone would side in all of those. It's been echoed in the previous pages that we shouldn't move away from what we do best - overrun them with goblins. I'm sure there's a point that I would be overboarding. What would you side in with my cards? I do not know what the MD is like, there are always random decks popping up at the store. I would love to have a well rounded SB, being able to take care a wide range of decks.
I guess Nature's Claim takes care of many deck. The point with Pithing Needle is, that it's somehow good against many things, but it just can't turn boardpositions over. I guess in most cases an additional Goblin is more valuable than Pithing Needle.
As it comes to fighting Vengevival I have worked out a strategy that works quite well for GW and GB (maybe for those Ooze-Combo too): I'd neither aim for their graveyard nor for their Survival, but for their MANA! Let me explain why:
(1) Those decks run 4 Basiclands (at their bests!). Manadenial is a major gameplan of Goblins. Aiming at their lands makes it much more difficult for them to start those annoying Survival-chains.
(2) Without Squee those decks can only generate cardquality with their Survival and not cardadvantage. The scary thing about Bant-Survival was that they were able to drop another Rhox War Monk or Goyf each and every turn cause they got back their Squee all the time. If we make sure that they don't have enough MANA (Noble Hierarchs, Nonbasics, Quirion Ranger, Birds of Paradise), we have nothing to fear from Survival of the Fittest (going into Ooze combo with no part on their hand costs 2BBGGG in total!)


Extirpate: has anyone tried it in the board? It's great against many decks especially vengevine but would you run it?
Not tested yet. I like to hear how you found it (if you gonna test it)



i need to know to sideboard in and to sideboard out for the following decks
Dredge
Survival Vengevine
Merfolk
Countertop 4C
Zoo
Goblins
Tes
Lands
What about posting your list + sideboard first? Otherwise we don't know what you could possbly board in/out.

[jrw1985]

@ScatManx

Are you able to post the link to where the Jim Davis vids are... I cant seem to find them...

Cheers

<embed src="http://blip.tv/play/AYKLiWYC" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed>

[jrw1985]

@ScatManx

Are you able to post the link to where the Jim Davis vids are... I cant seem to find them...

Cheers

http://www.ggslive.com/videos.html

Round 7

[P-AiR]

Thanks Gobolord.

Very good ideas there, I could try dropping the TSH and 2 stingscourgers for the Prospector+chieftain+sharpshooter.

In theory, the sharpshooter combo seems lackluster - can't really take care of knights, mid game goyfs, or any other creatures that we're really afraid of unless we give up most if not all of our army.

I'll also drop my 4th Port just to make sure I won't get mana screwed and replace it with a fetch then.

a) I'm sure you and Scat have beaten this subject to death over PMs, but why not stingscourgers? Clears the way for lackey and can be vialed in.

b) blood moon - going by your theory that survival only runs 4-5 basics would blood moon be good in the mu? Or is the only reason why it's not being mentioned is their pridemages?

[ScatmanX]

I'd neither aim for their graveyard nor for their Survival, but for their MANA!
I completely agree here. Hitting manasource (this counts using Pyroknesis to get rid of Noble and Quirion Ranger (and maybe getting a Fauna Shaman/Rootwalla or Mongrael in the process)).

@Extirpate: Es stated, fighting the graveyard is no good. Keeping mana open is no good. Topdecking Extirpate is awful. And have your hate being "countered" by Vedillon Clique, just sucks.

@jrw1985: thanks. I had forgotten that link...

[antonbystedt]

Hey again guys, im going to a Legacy tournament on Sunday and have decided to play mono-red.
I have tried all possible color combinations (RU, RG, RB, RGB), but never mono-red.

I have no idea what the meta is, since the meta in Sweden is so random depending on where you are in the country, last time i was at a Legacy tournament in Stockholm i saw much Dredge, Dreadstill, Merfolk and Zoo.

Here is the list.
Maindeck:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon (There are much controll decks here that are very vulnerable to this card)
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I got inspired by Gobbolord's result at the Dutch eternal tournament, and kinda copied his list.
I've tested with Skirk Prospector before, but didn't like it. After watching Jim Davis video and practicing, i love it. It opens so many opportunities and is a really skillfull card, it creates so many choices to do.

I try to not focus to much about the list i am playing, i just wanted a solid MD and SB and now i think i have found that.
Because in the end, skill will help more than whatever list you are playing.

But if there some improvments that you people think can be done, just Comment!

Best regards, Anton.

[partyx2000]

hey guys,

After watching the vids, I'm still not completely sure on what the Prospector + Sharpshooter tech is... Can someone please explain how it works??

Also a n00b question about the Prospector, can he sac himself to generate a floating :r: mana?

Cheers!

[Dia_Bot]

The tech is in fact using the prospector to untap sharpshooter to clear your opponents creatures (and generating mana in the process). Works very good with creatures like MWM. For instance if you cast MWM with sharpshooter and prospector active you could get + R mana if you sac him + 2 tokens + 3 untaps for sharpshooter.

To answer your second question, yes he can sac himself for R.

[GoboLord]

hey guys,

After watching the vids, I'm still not completely sure on what the Prospector + Sharpshooter tech is... Can someone please explain how it works??

Also a n00b question about the Prospector, can he sac himself to generate a floating :r: mana?

Cheers!

Yeah what Dia_Bot says is right.

//EDIT (thanks antonbysted):
+ With an active Sharphooter you oopnent x/3 creatures will die to your 1/x blockers.
+ With Skirk Prospector you can use mana out of your Goblins (to play Lightning Bolt or other removal) and keep your Wastelands free for detroying lands (like Jim Davis did in G1)
+ you can use Prospector to fight Jitte (block equipped creature, then sacrifice for R in blocker declare step. in damage step there is no creature left to deal damage to. So no counters for jitte)

Well, actually those 3 points don't really belong to what we called the "Skirk Shooter tech". I want to point out that those cards are both good on their own.

[antonbystedt]

Yeah what Dia_Bot says is right.
+ With an active Sharphooter you oopnent x/2 creatures will die to your 1/x blockers.
+ With Skirk Prospector you can use mana out of your Goblins (to play Lightning Bolt or other removal) and keep your Wastelands free for detroying lands (like Jim Davis did in G1)
+ you can use Prospector to fight Jitte (block equipped creature, then sacrifice for R in blocker declare step. in damage step there is no creature left to deal damage to. So no counters for jitte)

Well, actually those 3 points don't really belong to what we called the "Skirk Shooter tech". I want to point out that those cards are both good on their own.

His x/3 creatures will trade witn your 1/1.

[GoboLord]

I'll also drop my 4th Port just to make sure I won't get mana screwed and replace it with a fetch then.
Good idea. The 4th Port is excactly what I found annoying in the Rbg build. One more fetchland makes your manafixing saver.



a) I'm sure you and Scat have beaten this subject to death over PMs, but why not stingscourgers? Clears the way for lackey and can be vialed in.
We've actually not discussed very long about it. It's more that we come to the same conclusions very quickly :-)
@ Stingscourger: Both of us felt that those Flexoble Slots are the best in mono R without Skirk-Shooter-tech:

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Stingscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

However, if I were to cut 2 cards to add "Skirk-Shooter" I'd cut the 4th Gempalm and the Stingscourger. Especialy when running the tech you don't want to kick neither MWM nor Chieftain (providing haste).
I don't know what Scat is thinking about it (I just copied his removal-package), but I felt that Gempalm + Stingscourger are the cards you side out the most after G1. That's why I consider them the weakest removal-slots. Knights and Goyfs can be scary, yes. But as long they don't fly or trample you can just chumpblock them. If you read Scat's report you'll even find a passage where he was able to kill a Knight with Lightning Bolt. And you must realize that Stingscourger doesn't completely remove a creature, he's only bouncing them.



b) blood moon - going by your theory that survival only runs 4-5 basics would blood moon be good in the mu? Or is the only reason why it's not being mentioned is their pridemages?
Excactly. That's why don't like Leyline or Relic or Crypt or Pithing Needle in this MU. Some of those decks even bring in Krosan Grip to have more ways to beat Crypt/Relic/Pithing Needle. So another Enchantment would just pump your opponent's Goyfs.

[raindrainxi]

Is it conclusive to say that running a mono-red deck without sting-prospector more reliable in an unknown meta?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Is it conclusive to say that running a mono-red deck without sting-prospector more reliable in an unknown meta?

I'd agree with this. Phyrexian Dreadnaught and Emrakul and common in my meta. I maindeck Stingscourger. If they weren't here, odds are I probably wouldn't.

[raindrainxi]

I'd agree with this. Phyrexian Dreadnaught and Emrakul and common in my meta. I maindeck Stingscourger. If they weren't here, odds are I probably wouldn't.

Oops, sorry mate. I meant shooter-prospector. I occasionally use the scourger to deal with merfolk's commander, and another bodyguard for the first-turn lackey. But I'd probly limit it to 1 max.

[P-AiR]

Just came back from a 3-1-1 record at a local 22-man legacy tournament.

I played against Bant Ctrl, Burn, Enchantress, Belcher (loss) , and drew against Supreme Blue. Played Belcher in the top 8 and beat him and split the prizes top 4.

I ran a black version of Scatman's list with the addition of Perish with the SB:
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Nature's Claim
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin Pyromancer

I'm really liking the prospector + sharpshooter but I didn't get a lot of chance to try it out. But prospector was all-star against burn.

Thinking of swapping perish with extirpates. But maybe I was just lucky because I didn't play any of the 4 Rocks in the tourney.

[HelloHero]

What's Goblin Pyromancer for?
Other aggro decks? has it had good results?

[Ubiquitous Druid]

1 Goblin Pyromancer


Me: Cast Goblin Pyromancer. Resolve?
Him: Yeah, sure.
Him: Ability on the stack, Stifle on Goblin Pyromancer's first ability.
Me: ...

True Story

And that was before stifle was being used everywhere. Needless to say the moral of the story is: Don't run dudes that kill your team.

[P-AiR]

Trust me, I did not and do not intend on siding in pyromancer just for the beats and combat surprise/trick with vial.

I play it to gain an edge against other goblin players ( 2 others in the tournament ) and Empty the Warrens. I didn't get a chance to draw it for this tournament against my 2 rounds/matches against Belcher. I fended off the 8-10 goblin tokens pretty easily.

I wished I had a chance to play test against another goblin deck with the pyromancer.


On another note, skirk prospector was amazing.. what made me a believer was:
T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Mogg War Marshal - sac Marshal for mana and also gain a token from the sac and play Goblin Lackey with the one floater.
When the burn player bolted my lackey, I sac'd it in response and casted my own bolt while I was tapped out.

[GoboLord]

Me: Cast Goblin Pyromancer. Resolve?
Him: Yeah, sure.
Him: Ability on the stack, Stifle on Goblin Pyromancer's first ability.
Me: ...

True Story

And that was before stifle was being used everywhere. Needless to say the moral of the story is: Don't run dudes that kill your team.

Classic: Sideboard FAIL!

Boarding Pyromancer against an deck with Stifle is like boarding Nature's Claim to destroy Standstill.
No offense intended, but in the case you described it's not the card's but the player's fault.

Pyromancer is boarded against
* Goblins
* Belcher/TES (Empty the Warrens)
* Slow control (Enchantress, Lands, Thopter Combo, Landstill, Staxx)

[raindrainxi]

Just a query:
I don't get Boartusk on mono-red
It's just a more expensive Chieftain without the haste so what gives? Or am I missing something?

[Pltinum]

Just a query:
I don't get Boartusk on mono-red
It's just a more expensive Chieftain without the haste so what gives? Or am I missing something?

first of all it's a 3/4 that boosts your other goblins. That's it.
Against engineered plague and it isnt so easily removed as a chieftain.. out of pyroclasm and firespout range.

That's how I see it.

[GoboLord]

first of all it's a 3/4 that boosts your other goblins. That's it.
Against engineered plague and it isnt so easily removed as a chieftain.. out of pyroclasm and firespout range.

That's how I see it.

Basicly it doesn't die to double E-Plague (unlike Chieftain and King).
Since monored doesn't have access to enchantment removal (well...Ratchet Bomb...) it's the most effective and reliable answer to Plagues.

[Mantis]

Make no illusion; even with Liege you still very likely lose to double Plague, it's not like your opponent is playing 56 lands, 4 Engineerd Plague. The reason Liege is good, is that he beats Pyroclasm and helps you survive Firespout and also survives Bolt and most of Zoo's creatures.

[GoboLord]

The reason Liege is good, is that he beats Pyroclasm and helps you survive Firespout and also survives Bolt and most of Zoo's creatures.

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Liege beats neither Firespout nor Pyroclasm.
(Lets assume we have Liege in play)
When you opponent has Pyroclasm, only your x/2-Goblins will survive (Warchief, Ringleader, Piledriver, Siege-Gang).
Firespout will clean your entire board (except for Liege) unless you have at least 2 other Lords.

Pyroclasm is hardly found in any legacy deck/sideboard today because Firespout is simply much more effective.
Therefore Liege's application is limited to fighting Plague (when it comes to the topic of boardsweepers).

[raindrainxi]

Pyroclasm is hardly found in any legacy deck/sideboard today because Firespout is simply much more effective.
Therefore Liege's application is limited to fighting Plague (when it comes to the topic of boardsweepers).

With that being said, what would be one of our solutions for boardsweepers? i.e. Firespout etc.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

Classic: Sideboard FAIL!

Boarding Pyromancer against an deck with Stifle is like boarding Nature's Claim to destroy Standstill.
No offense intended, but in the case you described it's not the card's but the player's fault.

Pyromancer is boarded against
* Goblins
* Belcher/TES (Empty the Warrens)
* Slow control (Enchantress, Lands, Thopter Combo, Landstill, Staxx)

The game was not a competetive Legacy game. It was game 1 and had no clue what was all in the opponent's deck. Pyromancer was a 1-of in a deck that I was testing.

[Mantis]

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Liege beats neither Firespout nor Pyroclasm.
(Lets assume we have Liege in play)
When you opponent has Pyroclasm, only your x/2-Goblins will survive (Warchief, Ringleader, Piledriver, Siege-Gang).
Firespout will clean your entire board (except for Liege) unless you have at least 2 other Lords.

Pyroclasm is hardly found in any legacy deck/sideboard today because Firespout is simply much more effective.
Therefore Liege's application is limited to fighting Plague (when it comes to the topic of boardsweepers).
I am not sure why I bother to even respond as your tone suggest I can never convince you of my stance anyway, but I can't resist the urge and perhaps other forum lingers will find my contribution useful.

Boartusk Liege helps a great deal against Firespout, he allows you to commit less resources and still pose a threat to your opponents lifetotal. The effect is simple, you will lose less resources to Firespout and you have more resources left after Spout and as a bonus he buffs them too. My conclusion: the presence of Boartusk Liege allows Goblins to have a better chance of winning the game after a Firespout.

Also, I never said Liege wasn't good against a single Plague, however Liege doesn't beat double Plague, so you might as well play Chieftain if the goal of your slot was to beat Plague. The ultimate reason to play Liege over Chieftain is that Liege helps against Firespout, not that it beats double Plague.

[Caspid]

With that being said, what would be one of our solutions for boardsweepers? i.e. Firespout etc.
same as with other wrath effects, I'm guessing. Not overextending, holding Ringleaders, Lightning Crafter, mana denial, and killing them quickly.

[GoboLord]

The game was not a competetive Legacy game. It was game 1 and had no clue what was all in the opponent's deck. Pyromancer was a 1-of in a deck that I was testing.

..still you give advice to not run Pyromancer in a Goblin deck, while we are discussing competitive legacy decklists.


With that being said, what would be one of our solutions for boardsweepers? i.e. Firespout etc.

Ringleader, Matron and Siege-Gang Commander. Keep one of those in your hand if you fear any boardsweeper.


I am not sure why I bother to even respond as your tone suggest I can never convince you of my stance anyway, but I can't resist the urge and perhaps other forum lingers will find my contribution useful.

Boartusk Liege helps a great deal against Firespout, he allows you to commit less resources and still pose a threat to your opponents lifetotal. The effect is simple, you will lose less resources to Firespout and you have more resources left after Spout. As a bonus he also buffs your creatures after Firespout. The conclusion: the presence of Boartusk Liege buffs Goblins win percentage against Firespout.

Also, I never said Liege wasn't good against a single Plague, however Liege doesn't beat double Plague, so you might as well play Chieftain if the goal of your slot was to beat Plague. The ultimate reason to play Liege over Chieftain is that Liege helps against Firespout, not that it beats double Plague.

You can convice me...but only with arguments and not with subjective opinions.

With two Plagues and no Goblins in play your Chieftain won't help, where Boartusk Liege does!
And again: After Firespout you almost always lose all your Goblins except for Boartusl Liege. even with 2 Lords (e.g. Liege + Chieftain) in play it will kill your hole army. To fight Firespout, Boartusk Liege is no better Goblin Goon and Boggart Mob. It's simply the fact that the creature itself will survive - it doesn't protect any other Goblin.
Therefore: Liege helps against Plague not against Firespout.

[Mantis]

The reason why I don't think Liege beats double Plague most of the time is that most decks that are packing Plague also play a shitton of removal. Even if they don't play removal, such as UB Merfolk, you lose all of your 1/1 Goblins and your 2/2 and 1/2's will become pretty pisspoor since you end up with a team of 1/1's. Sure, there will be games where you will in fact beat that double Plague with your Liege, but generally speaking a Boartusk Liege is not an effective solution to double Plague.

On the matter of Firespout, you completely ignored all of my arguments. Again, the reason why Liege is good against Firespout is that you have to commit less Goblins to the board because Liege pumps them all. Then post Spout, Liege also pumps the Goblins you kept in your hand, so amassing a scary force is easier.

Also, would you not be happy with Goblin Goon or Boggart Mob on board against Firespout? I definately would, however both cards are terrible in almost every situation that does not involve Plague or Firespout while Liege is still decent.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

..still you give advice to not run Pyromancer in a Goblin deck, while we are discussing competitive legacy decklists.

My point is, as an object lesson, don't run narrow cards with tremendous drawbacks that can potentially wreck your whole gameplan. I learned early that as a card, Pyromancer should not be included in a competitve list.

I find Pyrokinesis does just as good, if not a better job of dealing with:



* Goblins
* Belcher/TES (Empty the Warrens)
* Slow control (Enchantress, Lands, Thopter Combo, Landstill, Staxx)


And, you definitely don't want pyromancer vs Landstill. That matchup is already good and you are walking into the exact stifle territory mentioned.

[Nidd]

And, you definitely don't want pyromancer vs Landstill. That matchup is already good and you are walking into the exact stifle territory mentioned.
Landstill doesn't play Stifle.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

Landstill doesn't play Stifle.

I've played against numerous Landstill decks that do.

[GoboLord]

The reason why I don't think Liege beats double Plague most of the time is that most decks that are packing Plague also play a shitton of removal. Even if they don't play removal, such as UB Merfolk, you lose all of your 1/1 Goblins and your 2/2 and 1/2's will become pretty pisspoor since you end up with a team of 1/1's. Sure, there will be games where you will in fact beat that double Plague with your Liege, but generally speaking a Boartusk Liege is not an effective solution to double Plague.

On the matter of Firespout, you completely ignored all of my arguments. Again, the reason why Liege is good against Firespout is that you have to commit less Goblins to the board because Liege pumps them all. Then post Spout, Liege also pumps the Goblins you kept in your hand, so amassing a scary force is easier.

Also, would you not be happy with Goblin Goon or Boggart Mob on board against Firespout? I definately would, however both cards are terrible in almost every situation that does not involve Plague or Firespout while Liege is still decent.

Hmm, now I understand you better but I'm still not convinced completely.. guess we simply don't share oppinions on this topic.

[guedax]

my sideboard
4 leyline of the void
4 perish
4 thorn of amethyst
2 extirpate
1 tuktuk scrapper

good SB with good solutions against dredge, zoo and survival
thorn will be good against combo but very good against control with the manadenial plan

i dont understand why do you run calice of the void
perhaps better than thorn against combo but it sucks at one with vial, lackey, bolt, extirpate
so 13 cards post SB!!!!!

[GoboLord]

my sideboard
4 leyline of the void
4 perish
4 thorn of amethyst
2 extirpate
1 tuktuk scrapper

good SB with good solutions against dredge, zoo and survival
thorn will be good against combo but very good against control with the manadenial plan

i dont understand why do you run calice of the void
perhaps better than thorn against combo but it sucks at one with vial, lackey, bolt, extirpate
so 13 cards post SB!!!!!

(1)
I don't find Thorn very good against control - not even worth boarding. You don't want to side out creatures for non-Goblins when you are up against control.

(2)
Just play Chalice @ 0 and your problems are solved. Plus, the good thing about Chalice is, that you can choose whether to put it @0 or @1 (big advantage over Thorn). Therefore you can make sure that it does not fuck up with Vial/Lackey/Bolt/Extirpate. You can also design your sideboard/maindeck in a way that Chalice is never among the same 60 cards with Bolt and Extirpate (Lackey and Vial are mostly unavoidable).

[guedax]

(1)
I don't find Thorn very good against control - not even worth boarding. You don't want to side out creatures for non-Goblins when you are up against control.

(2)
Just play Chalice @ 0 and your problems are solved. Plus, the good thing about Chalice is, that you can choose whether to put it @0 or @1 (big advantage over Thorn). Therefore you can make sure that it does not fuck up with Vial/Lackey/Bolt/Extirpate. You can also design your sideboard/maindeck in a way that Chalice is never among the same 60 cards with Bolt and Extirpate (Lackey and Vial are mostly unavoidable).

1)
thorn's not good against ctrl? u fuck it with manadenial by definition
1 thorn and 1 active port and u never see moat humility plague etc!!
turn 1 lackey forced of will and ur raped at turn 4 with hulility and then another gob is fuck against thorn i think

2)so i have to play cotv at 0 in order no to be dead with my others turn one
but how can i play cotv when my opener played his mox led before my first turn?
even if cotv is better against combo and im ok with it, but in which others MU cotv is used as DTB?
zoo?bant?etc thanks for developpings

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

1)
thorn's not good against ctrl? u fuck it with manadenial by definition
1 thorn and 1 active port and u never see moat humility plague etc!!
turn 1 lackey forced of will and ur raped at turn 4 with hulility and then another gob is fuck against thorn i think

2)so i have to play cotv at 0 in order no to be dead with my others turn one
but how can i play cotv when my opener played his mox led before my first turn?
even if cotv is better against combo and im ok with it, but in which others MU cotv is used as DTB?
zoo?bant?etc thanks for developpings

When playing ANT or TES, I'd rather see Thorn of Amethyst than Chalice of the Void.

[ScatmanX]

@Thorn: This card is for fighting Combo. It is just bad against Control. If they FoW your T1 Lackey, great You beat them anyway. What they can`t deal is with our shitloads of creatures, not against Artifacts. Removing goblins to play Thorn is a bad idea.
The problem is: IF you want to run something against combo (you may not want to, like myself), the card WILL be narrow. CotV is nice because you can drop it without delaying your gameplan. Thorn costs too much mana IMO.Another good option it you want to consider these things is Null Rod, while it`s great against Combo and Affinity.

@Liege: I like the card against both Plague and Firespout. Even if Firespout kill all your other guys, you still have a 3/4 in play, and hopefully another goblin in your hand. If they don`t get to kill him in 2-3 turns, he will do a lot of dmg with him.
Against Plague, you jast have to hope he doesent have enough removal. IF he has 2 Plague AND removal for all your guys, hten you`ll lose either way...

@Stingscourger: The card is great, and I absolutely would run him if I had more space. Also, If your meta has lots of SnT, then run him. He may be good for some people, and bad for others.

@Shooter+Prospector: I love them, but there certainly are lists that don`t run them and are great.

@guedax: Welcome to The Source.
Please try to capitalize, punctuate and express your opinions better.

[Nessaja]

When playing ANT or TES, I'd rather see Thorn of Amethyst than Chalice of the Void.
You can still tutor for an answer with Chalice, much harder with Thorn.

[antonbystedt]

Just came home from the Legacy tournament i played today, placing 2nd.
The funny thing is that, the top 3 players where all from the same city as me, and in the final i faced a guy i play legacy with on regular basis, and he also plays Goblins. The final was extremely tight, but he drew 2 more Pyrokinesis than me in the 3rd match, when we where tied 1-1.

This was the decklist i played:
Main:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
15 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port (I wanted a 4th one but i only had 3).
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Boartusk Liege
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Round 1, UGW Vengevine:
Faced my friend Jon who are from the same city and playtesting group as me, he is playing UGW Survival and we have playtested this matchup alot, and he wins about 70% of the times.
Game 1: 3 Venges turn 3.
Game 2: I took mulligan to 5, he get 2 Venges turn 3 and can play Loyal Retainers for Iona turn 4.

0-1, 0-2

Round 2, White Stax:
Game 1: Can't remember much, but i wasted Ancient Tomb early and got a vial and won shortly after.
Game 2: Almost lost this to the Tabernacle dude, but i somehow kill it and then wins with Blood Moon.

1-1, 2-2

Round 3, Storm:
Game 1: He goes off with Ad Naseum turn 2, he goes down to 3 life with Ad Naseum, i respond on the resolve with a Lightning Bolt.
Game 2: Chalice of the Void turn 1 on 0, and a Goblin Lackey was to much for him.

2-1, 4-2

Round 4, Storm:
Game 1: I manage to waste one of his lands and ports the other, and then kill him turn 4 or 5, can't remember.
Game 2: Chalice of the void on 0 on turn 1 and a Vial. He goes of turn 3 with 12 Goblin tokens, i manage to block and survive and then end it with Goblin Sharpshooter, Skirk Prospector + Siege-Gang Commander.

3-1, 6-2

Round 5, Rock:
We ID so we are safe to top 8.

3-1-1, 6-2

Top 8:
Quarterfinal, UW Merfolk:
Game 1: I take mulligan to 4 and get a hand with 2 Aether Vials, 1 Goblin Lackey and a Goblin Piledriver, i keep since i dont want to mulligan down to 3. To bad i don't draw lands and loose, but he didn't see a single card from my deck.
Game 2: I get a Aether Vial turn 1, turn 2 Rishadan port, Turn 3 Wasteland, and it was pretty much game.
Game 3: I get a stable hand with an Aether Vial, Mogg War Marshall, Pyrokinesis and some dudes. He can't handle all my removal and card advantage and i win stable.

Semi Final, UGW Survival
I face my friend Jon again, same guy as i lost to in the first round.
Game 1: He only gets some mana dudes and Wild Mongrel, no Survival nor anything dangerous. So i kill him with a horde of goblins after a while.
Game 2: Natural Order to Progenitus turn 3.
Game 3: I take mulligan to 6. He does not have Survival. We trade bunch of guys untill we hit turn 6/7, He plays FOW on my Pyrokinesis when i want to kill Wild Mongrell and his mana dudes, we both have no cards on our hands after that, and he have 2 Noble Hierarch and a Wild Mongrell in play, i have a Goblin Lackey and Goblin Warchief.
Goblins are really awsome in top-decking mode, so i won that one aswell.

Final, Goblins (Faster version than mine, he plays with Warren Instigator and more spot removal:
I face my friend Daniel, who also are my friend from the same city. We both play Goblins but my list are alot better in the mirror match, and i have never lost a mirror on a tournament.
Game 1: Both get early vials, the game goes back and forth, but i win due to Gempalms and finish with Siege-Gang Commander.
Game 2: The early game are very tight, but i drew no Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader on the whole game, so i lost gas and he won.
Game 3: I controll the early game, he plays Pyrokinesis and taking, 1 Goblin Chieftain, 1 Goblin Lackey and a Goblin Warchief who he also chumped.
He gets a bunch of dudes out, but i manage to stabilize and i have 3 Aether Vials in play.
The game goes into top decking mode, we both drew Siege-Gangs after eachother and managed to find answer on both, and we are both on low lifes.
Then i drew lands in some turns while he gets Warchiefs and Piledriver.
Finally i get my last Siege-Gang and can bolt him to death if he lets me untap, he has 1 card in hand, that is Pyrokinesis, he hardcasts it and attack for the win.
Well, he deserved to win since he is a much better player than me aswell.

CONS:
*Didn't meet any Merfolk nor Zoo in the Swiss, which i wanted to play. But i won't complain.
*Did much more mulligans than i am used to, sometimes i got flooded or had no land.
*There where many times i wished that i had drew more Rishadan Ports, im gonna play 4 next time.

PROS:
*3 of the 4 Players from my city that played the legacy tournament went top 8.
*Blood Moon where a good call for the meta.
*Skirk Prospector and Goblin Sharpshooter gets MVP for the day.
*I really liked the Mono-R version and i didn't miss the other colors.
*Chalice of the Void, i think it's so much more effective than Mindbreak Trap in my meta, since the storm decks i faced both played Duress and Thoughtsieze.

Sorry for the bad grammar and spelling. But i just came home and i've slept 4-5 hours since friday, and i just felt to share the experience with my fellow Goblin players :)

[Pneumatiker]

This was the decklist i played:
Main:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
14 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port (I wanted a 4th one but i only had 3).
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Boartusk Liege
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper


If i counted correctly, that are onlyl 59 cards in your main board. Despite of that congratulation to your result.

[ScatmanX]

@antonbystedt: Nice one! Survival is not that difficult to beat if they don't have... well... Survival =D
Where have you used BloodMoons?

[TossUsToLions]

It's funny to come back after not reading this thread for three days and seeing how everyone is as happy as i have been with Skirk Prospector/Sharpshooter. I recently added prospector to the main deck for the simple reason that i hate slow starts. Goblins biggest weakness is its lack of 1-drops. Skirk prospector is great one-drop, allowing for extremely fast starts and great synergy with MWM and Sharpshooter. I think that Sharpshooter is definitely a mandatory 1-of in the maindeck right now. It's really good in the meta

[raindrainxi]

@guedax: Welcome to The Source.
Please try to capitalize, punctuate and express your opinions better.

Hey, where's my welcoming banner? JK

after some thought, I'd have to agree with Scat on Liege. Although against Firespout if he has creatures, he'd pump them too, but nothing gobs can't handle though. On E.plagues, you might as well scoop on 2 and a bunch of removals.

I prefer CotV too, because it's much more flexible for the slot.

Haven't tested prospector just yet, just unearthed the card,but in paper it seems like a very good idea, although being a one-off means it would rarely come out on the first draw to maximize its cost.

Ah, the Stingscourger. I've played a couple against mfolk and both times he quit after vialing it on an attacking flying coralhelm, saying that bounce shouldn't be on a red goblin. lol

[Tacosnape]

Your cards for fighting combo should be Mindbreak Trap and/or Chalice of the Void (And Needle, for Belcher). Thorn of Amethyst is a terrible, terrible card that doesn't belong in hardly any decks except possibly heavily colorless ones. Very often you won't get the Thorn down until it's too late, and very often you'll only buy a couple turns with it.

[bakofried]

As an aside, what are you running right now, Taco?

[antonbystedt]

@antonbystedt: Nice one! Survival is not that difficult to beat if they don't have... well... Survival =D
Where have you used BloodMoons?

Thanks!
I boarded Blood Moons against, Survival, White Stax and Merfolk. Since the Merflok deck had 20 Nonbasic lands and only 21 lands total (8 Fetch, 4 Tundra, 4 Mutavault, 4 Wasteland), and Mutavaults are really annoying.
White Stax just died against it, and it would kill the Survival deck since he only played 1 Basic land.

And the 60th card was a Mountain that i forgot :P

[jrw1985]

Round 3, Storm:
Game 1: He goes off with Ad Naseum turn 2, he goes down to 3 life with Ad Naseum, i respond on the resolve with a Lightning Bolt.
Game 2: Chalice of the Void turn 1 on 0, and a Goblin Lackey was to much for him.

2-1, 4-2

Round 4, Storm:
Game 1: I manage to waste one of his lands and ports the other, and then kill him turn 4 or 5, can't remember.
Game 2: Chalice of the void on 0 on turn 1 and a Vial. He goes of turn 3 with 12 Goblin tokens, i manage to block and survive and then end it with Goblin Sharpshooter, Skirk Prospector + Siege-Gang Commander.

3-1, 6-2

This is why I play Chalice. Turn off 12 cards in your deck? Yes please. Sorry Thorn of Amethyst, Mindbreak Trap, Pyrostatic Pillar, et al.

Way to represent.

[guedax]

against what do you side calice?
is it good against zoo in addition with perish?(not big zoo)

[Tacosnape]

As an aside, what are you running right now, Taco?

Against Combo? Mindbreak Trap.

I've thought about experimenting with Chalice of the Void, but I run into SO MUCH BELCHER where I play and I don't really have the spots for 5-7 combo hate cards. Chalice of the Void doesn't do shit in a Belcher match, because you'll hit a ton of match results like this:

Game 1 - Regardless of who goes first, Belcher laughs at your non-Force of Will-packing self and eats your face.
Game 2 - You get your Chalice, have just a little bit of tempo, and manage to handle things before Shattering Spree turns it around.
Game 3 - You get your Chalice, then realize how pointless it is because you didn't go first. Your next thought is "Hey, That Taco guy, he might be on to something about Mindbreak Trap."

The same is occasionally true, albeit to a lesser degree, against Tendrils decks. They tend to go off on turn 1 far less frequently, though, and even if they slip their 0-drops in before you get a turn, Chalice still can cause them a few problems sometimes. That said, They occasionally just completely circumvent Mindbreak Trap, so you kind of have to pick your poison.

[antonbystedt]

against what do you side calice?
is it good against zoo in addition with perish?(not big zoo)

I've found it good against, Canadian Thresh, Zoo (Sometimes), All storm decks, Life.dec.

There could be some deck that i forgot, and it may work against Enchantress.

[Nessaja]

Your cards for fighting combo should be Mindbreak Trap and/or Chalice of the Void (And Needle, for Belcher). Thorn of Amethyst is a terrible, terrible card that doesn't belong in hardly any decks except possibly heavily colorless ones. Very often you won't get the Thorn down until it's too late, and very often you'll only buy a couple turns with it.
Have you tried this post banning of Mystical Tutor, I had the same opinion but combo decks became slower and, additionally, have more trouble tutoring for answers (can't do it on instant speed, for one thing).

Diversifying hate is always the right call against combo, as they'll play around your hate G3. If you're using 4 spots for combo, might as well go all the way.

[Zörg]

Nice game anton!

Do you remember what you boarded in against the different matchups?

And leyline of the void, in which matchups do you use that?

[bakofried]

Actually I was wondering what your MD looked like. I remember what you used to play, but what are you playing now that the meta has shifted?

[1maarten1]

I recently picked my goblin deck back up again, and I agree on the fact the Prospecter+Sharpshooter is a very nice tech for the meta atm. Only thing I dont really understand: Is tuktukscrapper really good enough to give it a slot sideboard or even maindeck?

[raindrainxi]

Only thing I dont really understand: Is tuktukscrapper really good enough to give it a slot sideboard or even maindeck?

Yes it is, if you run mono-red. The ability to destroy artifact immediately (via Vial) is way better than a 1/2 that waits for next turn, albeit costs a tad more. Although if you run Rg tin street is still better of course.

[GGoober]

My meta is filled with Merfolks at the moment, would running 3 Mutavault over 3 Port be ideal in a non-control/countertop meta? Those Mutavaults will get the Island walk from their LoA. Also has anyone tested 8-12 lord version of Gobs with Mutavault?

I saw the list somewhere here a few months ago but has it been dismissed to be a subpar strategy?

[DragoFireheart]

My meta is filled with Merfolks at the moment, would running 3 Mutavault over 3 Port be ideal in a non-control/countertop meta? Those Mutavaults will get the Island walk from their LoA. Also has anyone tested 8-12 lord version of Gobs with Mutavault?



Why?


There is no reason Goblins should have a hard time with merfolk. We run better aggro creatures, make better use of Vial, have Goblin Lackey and run the god damn Goblin Piledriver. We have uncounterable removal in the form of Gempalm Incinerator and run way more bombs and card advantage like Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader. There's a reason Goblins has been a DTB for nearly forever.

Just crush Merfolk.

[Arsenal]

Yes it is, if you run mono-red. The ability to destroy artifact immediately (via Vial) is way better than a 1/2 that waits for next turn, albeit costs a tad more. Although if you run Rg tin street is still better of course.

But you need to tick Vial up to 4 in order to have Scrapper Vialed in. That's a loooonnngggg time to wait. I'd rather just Vial in Tinkerer eot, then activate on my turn. If my opponent is holding Instant speed removal for the Vialed in Tinkerer, yeah, that sucks, but Scrapper just seems too slow. 4cc for a non-hasting 2/2 body with a build in Shatter seems not as good as Tinkerer for mono-red builds.

[Talanos]

But you need to tick Vial up to 4 in order to have Scrapper Vialed in. That's a loooonnngggg time to wait. I'd rather just Vial in Tinkerer eot, then activate on my turn. If my opponent is holding Instant speed removal for the Vialed in Tinkerer, yeah, that sucks, but Scrapper just seems too slow. 4cc for a non-hasting 2/2 body with a build in Shatter seems not as good as Tinkerer for mono-red builds.

Problems with that:

1) Vial rarely stays at 2. So unless you need to kill an artifact on that one turn, you're probably past the point of vialing tinkerer anyway.

2) Vial often waits at 3 or 4 anyway, so if you draw scrapper after you're already vialing in matrons, lords, or ringleaders, its easy to tick up one or stay at 4 and play it.

3) Most importantly, if they have jitte with 2 counters on it, you need warchief out for tinkerer to even work. And jitte is the biggest threat you're boarding in artifact removal for, generally. Most of the time, even if you had a warchief, it died to the first jitte charge. So you have to catch them with no counters and not let them charge it next turn, or have a warchief survive... its tough to do.

Sometimes I've played both tuktuk and tinkerer, though, since it gives you more ways to draw into the solutions, and each is good against different things. Tuktuk is better against jitte, but tinkerer rocks against top and dreadknought, as well as moxen. If you have to pick one though, pick the one that beats jitte, since that's pretty much the best way for merfolk or zoo to beat you.

Also, regarding the 4cc, generally by the time you have to deal with jitte, you can pay 4 mana.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I use Tuktuk Scrapper.

[ScatmanX]

3) Most importantly, if they have jitte with 2 counters on it, you need warchief out for tinkerer to even work

If they have Jitte with 2 counters on it, you don't have Warchief.
Use Scrapper.

[Vandalize]

TukTuk Scrapper is much better than Tinkerer.

"Tinkerer is better for Affinity and Dreadnought" - Well, Pyrokinesis and Chalice of the Void on 0 can really deal with Affinity, and Stingscourger can deal with Dreadnought.

Perhaps, the artifacts that hates HARD on goblins are: Umezawa's Jitte and Ensnaring Bridge. These two are nicely removed with Scrapper (unless a stifle shows up to save the day).

[Avatara]

(unless a stifle shows up to save the day).

The same thing can be said about Tinker & removal. Scrapper isn't effected by that.

[Nelis]

Not sure what you're saying here, but Scrappers ability is a triggered ability which can be stifled.

[Pltinum]

Not sure what you're saying here, but Scrappers ability is a triggered ability which can be stifled.


He's just saying that stifle is irrelevant, because all the other alternatives can be stifled as well (and are even MORE vulnerable).

[antonbystedt]

Nice game anton!

Do you remember what you boarded in against the different matchups?

And leyline of the void, in which matchups do you use that?


First to the Leyline of the Void, i bord it against Dredge, any Loam based deck and Reanimate. There are probably other decks that it could be good against, but i can't think of any other at the moment.

If i remember correctly i boarded:
Round 1, UGW Survival:
-2 Siege-Gang Commander
-3 Goblin Piledriver
+3 Pyrokinesis
+2 Blood Moon

Round 2, White Stax:
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Lightning Bolt
+2 Blood Moon
+1 Tuktuk Scrapper
+1 Boartusk Liege

Round 3, Storm:
-4 Gempalm Incinerator
-2 Lightning Bolt (Have no idea if this was correct, since i won g1 on Bolt, but i thought he now knew about bolts and that it was obvious that he would play around it. But i could be wrong).
+4 Chalice of the Void
+2 Blood Moon

Round 4, Storm:
See Round 3.

Round 5, Rock:
ID, so no SB.

Top 8:
Quaterfinals, UW Merfolk:
-1 Goblin Warchief (Since this matchup is not about being aggressive, i thought that a more controlling plan with more removal would benefit more than a Warchief, and it worked great).
-1 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Goblin Chieftain (Since he do not play black).
-2 Siege-Gang Commander
+3 Pyrokinesis
+2 Blood Moon

Semifinals, UGW Survival:
Same buddy from round 1, same sideboarding.

Finals, RGB Goblins, the more aggressive list:
1- Skirk Prospector (The card loss generated from this card would have a to big drawback in the mirror imo, and Sharpshooter takes out the majority of the dudes anyway)
-3 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Mogg War Marshal
+3 Pyrokinesis
+1 Tuktuk Scrapper
+1 Boartusk Liege

EDIT: I remember that i also boarded in Pyrokinesis agaisnt storm, but i can't remember what i boarded out, since one of the storm decks had Empty the Warrens.

[BWM]

If i remember correctly i boarded:
Top 8:
Quaterfinals, UW Merfolk:
-2 Siege-Gang Commander

I think this is wrong...

I would side out 1 Prospector and maybe 1 Matron instead... SGC is awesome.

[Vandalize]

The only cards I'd board out from the "Core" group are SGC and Piledriver. Taking a Matron or a Ringleader out is not really smart imo.

I use this sideboard:
3x Pyrokinesis
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Relic of Progenitus (sometimes they want to be LotV, but I find a lot of Tarmogoyfs in my meta)
2x Blood Moon
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Boartusk Liege

This is how I usually board out/in:

Against UGW Survival:
-2 Piledriver
-2 Siege-Gang Commander
-1 Goblin Chieftain
+2 Blood Moon
+3 Pyrokinesis (or some GY hate)

Against Merfolks:
-3 Lightning Bolt
-1 Mogg War Marshal
+3 Pyrokinesis
+1 Boartusk Liege

Against Staxx:
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Lightning Bolt
+1 TukTuk Scrapper
+1 Boartusk Liege
+2 Blood Moon

Against Dredge:
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Siege-Gang Commander
-1 Skirk Prospector (uh, this is debatable)
+4 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Blood Moon

Against Storm:
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Goblin Chieftain
-1 Siege-Gang Commander
+4 Chalice of the Void
+2 Blood Moon

Against Zoo:
-3 Goblin Piledriver
-2 Siege-Gang Commander
+3 Pyrokinesis
+1 TukTuk Scrapper (in case of Jitte)
+1 Boartusk Liege



Red Elemental Blast used to run a 3 of in my sideboard. Are they good enough? (Perhaps, they can save you in a lot of matches).

[raindrainxi]

Thanks for that post Vandalize, it was helpful, I was about to post my decklist and my queries on sideboarding and found yours and saved me time. :)
Just a few questions:

On Dredge, would Tormod's Crypt be better than Relic in what strategy specifically? Wouldn't paying an additional mana to remove the whole graveyard a drawback? Thanks.

[antonbystedt]

Question to Vandalize: How does your MD look, also why do you board out Lightning Bolt against Merfolk? That card helped me alot in that matchup, a 1 for 1 trade for 1 mana against a deck that has poor card generation, so we often have the card advantage, i find this card very usefull for me in this matchup. But that is my oppinion.

And about the REBS, in the meta i have played, i don't know where it could be usefull. Feels like against the natchups it could be used, we either win anyway or there are better cards like Blood Moon, but i have no idea what your meta looks like.

Otherwise i sideboard almost identicall to you :)

EDIT: And yes raindrainxi, against Dredge you want a cheap fast answer, Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void are exactly that.

[GoboLord]

My meta is filled with Merfolks at the moment, would running 3 Mutavault over 3 Port be ideal in a non-control/countertop meta? Those Mutavaults will get the Island walk from their LoA. Also has anyone tested 8-12 lord version of Gobs with Mutavault?

I saw the list somewhere here a few months ago but has it been dismissed to be a subpar strategy?

I tried it out: G-Unit (http://deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaN4q6vdq6)

The sideboard is really strange and mosty composed of cards I wanted to try out (well I wanted to try out a new concept...I actually was in a "try things out"-mood).
I still find the list good, but what I would change is the following:

- 3/4 Piledriver
+ 2 Ringleader
+ W splash for Mirror Entity

[Vandalize]

My MD is the same as some posted before:

Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
14x Mountain

Core:
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
4x AEther Vial
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal:
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Stingscourger
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

Flex-slots:
3x Mogg War Marshal
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Goblin Chieftain

The Lightning Bolts boarded out gives place to Pyrokinesis (which is much more effective). Using 3x Bolts and 3x Pyrokinesis makes the deck less consistent (I mean, Matron and Ringleader have less targets).
But that is my personal opinion... If you feel like you need more removal against merfolks, just keep the bolts MD... My experience shows that Piledrivers can deal with merfolks with no problems at all.

[1maarten1]

My MD is the same as some posted before:

Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
14x Mountain

Core:
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
4x AEther Vial
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal:
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Stingscourger
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

Flex-slots:
3x Mogg War Marshal
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Goblin Chieftain

The Lightning Bolts boarded out gives place to Pyrokinesis (which is much more effective). Using 3x Bolts and 3x Pyrokinesis makes the deck less consistent (I mean, Matron and Ringleader have less targets).
But that is my personal opinion... If you feel like you need more removal against merfolks, just keep the bolts MD... My experience shows that Piledrivers can deal with merfolks with no problems at all.

Its 61 cards btw :)!

I have a question about piledriver, I see some people running 3 and I see some people running 4, whats the reasoning behind not running 4? Also Vandalize your list only has 3 gempalm incinerators, how is that working for you? I never found myself in the urge of running less then 4.

[Justin]

Its 61 cards btw :)!

I have a question about piledriver, I see some people running 3 and I see some people running 4, whats the reasoning behind not running 4? Also Vandalize your list only has 3 gempalm incinerators, how is that working for you? I never found myself in the urge of running less then 4.

The number of piledrivers that you run depends on the meta. Some time ago, when Zoo was a top deck, some people cut piledrivers because it's pretty weak in that matchup. Then, when Merfolk became the top deck, everybody was back to four piledrivers. In a Vengevival-dominated format, I would recommend four piledrivers because Vengevival doesn't play much removal you need to run goblins that get them to lethal damage quickly.

[1maarten1]

The number of piledrivers that you run depends on the meta. Some time ago, when Zoo was a top deck, some people cut piledrivers because it's pretty weak in that matchup. Then, when Merfolk became the top deck, everybody was back to four piledrivers. In a Vengevival-dominated format, I would recommend four piledrivers because Vengevival doesn't play much removal you need to run goblins that get them to lethal damage quickly.

So what would you cut? A gempalm? Or a lightning bolt? Or something else? (looking at the list Anton posted a page back)

[ScatmanX]

I'm currently happy running 3 Bolt + 3 Gempalm + 1 Sharpshooter as my removal suit, so I'd cut the 4th Gempalm from that list...

[Melwis]

Hello all Goblin fans!

I would like to know if anyone has had success with Goblin Grappler? I know, sometimes he will merely be a 1/1 for R but the fact that he can help both Piledriver and Lackey connect is huge in my opinion. I'm sure he has been discussed here before so i'm very interested to hear your thoughts about this fellow :)

[antonbystedt]

Hello all Goblin fans!

I would like to know if anyone has had success with Goblin Grappler? I know, sometimes he will merely be a 1/1 for R but the fact that he can help both Piledriver and Lackey connect is huge in my opinion. I'm sure he has been discussed here before so i'm very interested to hear your thoughts about this fellow :)

I would rather play Mogg Fanatic or any random removal instead. It's just to weak.
A reason why it's bad:
Play Goblin Lackey t1
Play Goblin Grappler t2 (here it doesnt do anything at all, since it do not have haste)
r3, your opponent either kills your Goblin Lackey or have more than 1 creature in play.

So it wont do much at all IMO.

[sligh16]

Talking about Mogg fanatic, he is actually really good in this meta. It kills the Birds and Hierarchs of the survival decks, and also, kills mother of runes, a card that I think is problematic for Goblins. :smile:

[(nameless one)]

With all these talks about Prospectors, Sharpshooter and now Fanatics, it feels like we're shifting back to the old List.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Soooooooo, I need some assistance in deciding what to take out and put into my Mono-Red Gobbos deck. Currently, I'm running the standard Mono-Red deck everyone else in this topic seems to be running, but it's no longer working out as everyone and their mother in my local meta has decided recently to go insane and mono-colored non-blue aggro decks. Obviously, that renders otherwise great cards like Wasteland and Rishadan Port obsolete. Since I'm not willing to swap decks or add another color, I'd greatly appreciate it if someone in this here topic could give some advice as to what should and shouldn't be in a Goblins deck in this sort of bizarre meta. I know I absolutely need to throw in a Sharpshooter and add a couple more Stingscourgers in, but beyond that and taking out the Wastes and Ports, I've really got no idea.

[jin]

Soooooooo, I need some assistance in deciding what to take out and put into my Mono-Red Gobbos deck. Currently, I'm running the standard Mono-Red deck everyone else in this topic seems to be running, but it's no longer working out as everyone and their mother in my local meta has decided recently to go insane and mono-colored non-blue aggro decks. Obviously, that renders otherwise great cards like Wasteland and Rishadan Port obsolete. Since I'm not willing to swap decks or add another color, I'd greatly appreciate it if someone in this here topic could give some advice as to what should and shouldn't be in a Goblins deck in this sort of bizarre meta. I know I absolutely need to throw in a Sharpshooter and add a couple more Stingscourgers in, but beyond that and taking out the Wastes and Ports, I've really got no idea.

I wouldn't take them out. They still produce mana and taking them out completely disrupts Goblin's strategy. Goblins isn't a pure aggro deck. Without the disruption provided by these cards, you might as well play a white weenie deck with a few draw engines: Death and Taxes maybe, but even they play wastelands. Against mono colour aggro decks, ports are even more important to slow down the opponent while you reap the advantages from Vial.

You could play more creature removal mainboard. That's really all you need. 4x Gempalm Incinerators is a common play combined with Mogg War Marshals to block. Stingers are card disadvantage and a big loss of tempo unless they cheat their massive creatures into play. If they just play it with mana and no extra cards, then you are losing tempo. A lot of people have found that in aggro heavy meta, Pyrokinesis is sick. You could consider it since Goblin's card advantage will make up for the disadvantages of Pyrokinesis. Sharpshooter is more optional in this case since Pyrokinesis is faster and doesn't have to wait for summoning sickness.

Without more information on what decks you are playing against, this is the only type of advice I can give. I hope it helps

[Red Army]

Soooooooo, I need some assistance in deciding what to take out and put into my Mono-Red Gobbos deck. Currently, I'm running the standard Mono-Red deck everyone else in this topic seems to be running, but it's no longer working out as everyone and their mother in my local meta has decided recently to go insane and mono-colored non-blue aggro decks. Obviously, that renders otherwise great cards like Wasteland and Rishadan Port obsolete. Since I'm not willing to swap decks or add another color, I'd greatly appreciate it if someone in this here topic could give some advice as to what should and shouldn't be in a Goblins deck in this sort of bizarre meta. I know I absolutely need to throw in a Sharpshooter and add a couple more Stingscourgers in, but beyond that and taking out the Wastes and Ports, I've really got no idea.

If you want to go Wasteless and Portless, I would suggest this list, as I've tested it extensively and consider it to be at least playable in a random meta.

MAIN
22x Mountain
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Aether Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Warren Instigator
1x Mogg War Marshal
1x Stingscourger
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Cheiftain
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Siege-Gang Commander

BOARD (up to you)
2x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
3x Pyrokenisis
2x Relic
2x Macabre
3x Pithing Needle
2x Anarchy

I don't think Wastland and Port are bad at all, but there are so many advantages to not playing any non-basic lands. Wasteland immunity is one. Perhaps the greatest advantage in Goblin decks is how fewer colorless sources make it much easier to mulligan to a one drop without getting stuck with multiple grey lands. Also, it can play Warren Instigator aggressively, which is a very underrated card in the status quo of Goblin decks. I love it in most match-ups, and it's one of the most potent effects for racing Survival decks in particular. The consistency of Warren Instigator has allowed me to completely cut Warchiefs in favor of Chieftains, which synergize with WI rather than Warchief's somewhat disynergy (and since I can't get Waste'd, I don't need cost redution so much).

Also, I disagree that Stingscourger is tempo loss. Against aggro, Zoo in particular, Stingscourger buys valuable time since Goblins' land drops mean so much more than any other aggro deck. If Stingcourger bounces a creature and blocks another early on, it is a pure tempo gain, a better defensive play than Mogg War Marshal, IMO. Stingscourger also has a variety of applications against decks using single-creature strategies, so it would be wise to play at least one but never more than two (I've tried, it's a little too many).

Something to think about. I don't play in tourneys, but causally I've developed a reasonable understanding of the meta, for whatever that's worth.

[Vandalize]

Playing Mono-Red lists without mana denail is just dumb. Mana denial is an important part of a Goblins deck, it can win a lot of matches on it's own (early game port-lock is really annoying).

Wasteland immunity? Lol. They can only hit your Ports...
Less mulligans? That can be a little true, but you often start out with a Lackey or a Vial (vial is casted with a gray land). So it shouldn't be a major issue.

Without Wastelands and Ports, your goblins list are just going to fall against any Vengevine or Zoo you face.

Well, if you face a lot of mono-green elves, or something like this, don't hesitate to use gray lands. They're just too good.

[jin]

Also, I disagree that Stingscourger is tempo loss. Against aggro, Zoo in particular, Stingscourger buys valuable time since Goblins' land drops mean so much more than any other aggro deck. If Stingcourger bounces a creature and blocks another early on, it is a pure tempo gain, a better defensive play than Mogg War Marshal, IMO. Stingscourger also has a variety of applications against decks using single-creature strategies, so it would be wise to play at least one but never more than two (I've tried, it's a little too many).


If it isn't a tempo loss then why would you not want to play more? For what reason wouldn't you want to play such an awesome card? It's because stinger was only introduced to remove creatures larger than 3/3 against lackey on turn two where gempalm doens't work. With that said, when lackey connects you gain the tempo because you land a free creature that's too large to be cast on turn 2 and you made him cast his creature again. Without hitting with Goblin Lackey, you just boomeranged his creature which does not advance your board while you lose a card. They simply play it back out and you lost tempo (both in card advantage and mana if it were zoo).

Against Zoo it is not a tempo gain that's for sure. You are simply bying time by sacrificing goblins because you need time to build up a swarm. Tempo is about board development, mana input and card advantage. stinger stifles your board development and card advatnage (no pun intended) even though you might (or might not if it is zoo) gain a mana advantage.

But I mean, against most aggro decks, Vial Goblins can play aggressively, so there is no need for these stinger blocking tricks that you mentioned. You can just tank the hits and swing. He said his metagame is full of mono-coloured aggro decks. That means zoo is not a candidate. Overall, stinger is only used against decks that either have to sacrifice a lot to bring the creature into play (like Emrakul or Iona) or for removing creatures so lackey can connect.


Playing Mono-Red lists without mana denail is just dumb. Mana denial is an important part of a Goblins deck, it can win a lot of matches on it's own (early game port-lock is really annoying).

Wasteland immunity? Lol. They can only hit your Ports...
Less mulligans? That can be a little true, but you often start out with a Lackey or a Vial (vial is casted with a gray land). So it shouldn't be a major issue.

Without Wastelands and Ports, your goblins list are just going to fall against any Vengevine or Zoo you face.

Well, if you face a lot of mono-green elves, or something like this, don't hesitate to use gray lands. They're just too good.

I agree, early port-lock wins games. My friends got mad at me from playtesting because they were always one turn behind because of my Rishadan Ports. Then they got blue duals so they could FOW my Vial,.. then my Wastelands got more fun.

I also agree with that. Port is additional to the red mana, so it really dosen't affect goblin's development at all. It just affects goblins strategy. That's why I like 4... HAHA..

I don't know about it's effectiveness VS Zoo since their critters are all so cheap, but it is super effective against decks with big spells like jace2, Moat, even oblivion rings and KOTRs. It wouldn't do much to slow down Zoo that much since they are so blisteringly fast, but if the zoo player kept a slow hand maybe.

[Vandalize]

After several loss to Reanimator variants, I've decided to remove my Relics for real. LotV seems so much better. I also brought back my Red Elemental Blasts, which have been REALLY useful in several matchups (uh, 50% of legacy uses blue?)

This is my mono-red list sideboard 2.0:

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Pyrokinesis (add the fourth because it's just awsome)
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Boartusk Liege

I found those REBs to be the best answer to Jace 2.0 and those pesky Brainstorms EOT.

Any toughts?

[raindrainxi]

Have you tried combining 2 LotVs and 2 Tormod's? I just don't think having to mull everytime I don't have LotV in my hand against dredge or reanimator or any other decks that rely on their GY a good idea.

Also, is a single answer to artifacts enough? Seems good in theory but haven't been able to pull it off in an actual match. Although nice call on the REB, although I use Pyroblast, since I don't have REB.

[CorpT]

Have you tried combining 2 LotVs and 2 Tormod's? I just don't think having to mull everytime I don't have LotV in my hand against dredge or reanimator or any other decks that rely on their GY a good idea.

Also, is a single answer to artifacts enough? Seems good in theory but haven't been able to pull it off in an actual match. Although nice call on the REB, although I use Pyroblast, since I don't have REB.

2 Leyelines makes no sense. If you're concerned about GY cards, either run more than 4 (4 Leyline + x Crypt, Faerie, etc...) or run something else. 2 Leyline + 2 Crypt is just terrible.

[Vandalize]

Sup guys!

The sideboard I posted before is shining bright! I've just played like 10~12 UGx Survival decks, and I won them all.

There're two effective ways to deal with SotF (which can be banned next december 20th [hopefully not]):

1st) Fightning SotF:
Nature's Claim
Krosan Grip
Whatever kills enchantments.

2nd) Hitting their mana source (BINGO!)
Pyrokinesis
Wastelands
Port-Locks

Yay! Pyrokinesis just got it's power back to be a four of in sideboards. And those gray lands are doing their job quite effectively (as always). Just be careful, because some Survival lists are now running red splashs (Firespout, Anger, Grim Lavamancers).

I strongly recommend people to put at least 10 creature removal against SotF... It has been working for me.

[GoboLord]

2nd) Hitting their mana source (BINGO!)
Pyrokinesis
Wastelands
Port-Locks


That's what I've being telling you for a full month now.
But thanks for confirmation :-D Good to know that it doesn't work out for me alone.

[Tom T]

Hey guys!

I've been testing the single Sharpshooter and Prospector for a few weeks now and I like it a lot. Though, often I'm surprise by a well timed Swords to Plowshares against my Sharpshooter (or prospector, with the combo in play).
My question is: what's the most effective use of the stack with Goblin Sharpshooter and when should you pass or maintain priority in this situation?

Thanks in advance,
Tom

[GoboLord]

Hey guys!

I've been testing the single Sharpshooter and Prospector for a few weeks now and I like it a lot. Though, often I'm surprise by a well timed Swords to Plowshares against my Sharpshooter (or prospector, with the combo in play).
My question is: what's the most effective use of the stack with Goblin Sharpshooter and when should you pass or maintain priority in this situation?

Thanks in advance,
Tom

With only a single Sharpshooter you can't use the stack "most effectively": You tap SS for damage. If you want to let the damage resolve you automatically pass priority.

Let's say you have SS and Prospector and you are expecting removal: The most effective way would be:
(1) tap SS for damage.
(2) pass priority
(3a) your opponent play StoP @ SS
(3b) your opponent does nothing
(4a) you sacrifice a goblin in response on StoP and untap SS, you tap and shoot in response on StoP as often as you wish
(4b) you let damage resolve and start again at (1)

[ScatmanX]

S2nd) Hitting their mana source (BINGO!)
Pyrokinesis
Wastelands
Port-Locks
I was trying monored here, bringing in only 4 Knesis against UGmadness (with 4 Waste 3 Port main).
The results have not been as much satisfactory as when I used to bring 3 Knesis + 3 Needle + 3 Nature's Claim.
The testing with JUST Pyroknesis have been good for you guys?

Also, what do you take out?
When I boarded in 9 cards, I took out Vials, MWM, and some 1 offs. That was also giving me some very good results.
Well... guess I'll just try to fit 3 Needles on the side again...

[guedax]

do you think Leyline of the Void is effective against survival?

I found extirpate nice against it but really non synergic with lotv

so how do you side against it?
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pyrokinésie?
no perish?
thanks

[GoboLord]

I personally don't like hate in form of permenents against Survival, simple because they effectively deal with it (Pridemage, Trygon Predator, Krosan Grip). Therefore: I don't like Leyline and Needle.

WIth Nature's claim/Krosan Grip you won't completey shut their decks down (unless you are up against Ooze Survival, which heavily relies on SotF) because GW and UG both have a rather well-working aggro component. Therefore: don't aim at their graveyard or at their Survival.

I was testing UG and GW a lot with 3 Pyrokinesis, 3 Lightning Bolt, 4 Gempalm Incinerator 1 Stingscourger and 4 Wastes/3 Ports to aim for their mana and it worked out quite good. Therefore: Removal is most effective!

[ScatmanX]

do you think Leyline of the Void is effective against survival?

I found extirpate nice against it but really non synergic with lotv

so how do you side against it?
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pyrokinésie?
no perish?
thanks


Agains UGMadness, I sided +3 Knesis, +3 Needle, +3 Claim, -4 Vial,-1 Gempalm,-1Chieftain,-1 Prospector, -3MWM... so there was not even room for gravehate, and I'd not bring in Extirpate even if I was running it.
Gravehate and Perish are just bad against ugmadness. If you run green, suggest to go with the sideboard I quoted.

Unlike Gobbolord, I like Needles against it. It does not win the game, but gets you 2-3 turns to do so...

[(nameless one)]

I personally don't like hate in form of permenents against Survival, simple because they effectively deal with it (Pridemage, Trygon Predator, Krosan Grip). Therefore: I don't like Leyline and Needle.

WIth Nature's claim/Krosan Grip you won't completey shut their decks down (unless you are up against Ooze Survival, which heavily relies on SotF) because GW and UG both have a rather well-working aggro component. Therefore: don't aim at their graveyard or at their Survival.

I was testing UG and GW a lot with 3 Pyrokinesis, 3 Lightning Bolt, 4 Gempalm Incinerator 1 Stingscourger and 4 Wastes/3 Ports to aim for their mana and it worked out quite good. Therefore: Removal is most effective!

Based on your removal, it looks like you are running a mono-red version GoboLord. What does your main and side look like? My build seems clunky but then, I am running 2 Chieftain. I still see E-plagues once in a while.

On on Survival, I find that mana denial is the most effective way to deal with them.

[GoboLord]

Based on your removal, it looks like you are running a mono-red version GoboLord. What does your main and side look like? My build seems clunky but then, I am running 2 Chieftain. I still see E-plagues once in a while.

On on Survival, I find that mana denial is the most effective way to deal with them.

//Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan port

//Core [26]
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: SGC

//Flex [12]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Porspector

3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Chieftain

//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Manadenial is effective agains Surv. I counted removal as means of mandeinal here (Quirion Ranger, Birds, Noble Hierarch)

[(nameless one)]

When is it a good time to use Stingscourger? I was running 3 Gempalm/3 Stingscourger as my removal but that was way before VV's day. I was thinking of leaving 1 Stingscourger but I cant justify it. Outside decks that cheat big things into play, what are they used for.

And I know this has been discussed here for a long time, but I prefer Thorn of Amethyst over Chalice of the Void. The reason is you can also use Thorn against control. I guess it all depends on the meta and how competent combo players are in your meta.

[Vandalize]

Probably the best time to use Stingscourger is when there's a horny Iona locking you (sting casted via Vial). There're a few situations that bouncing something should help you. Maybe against Zoo, boucing a Goyf or a Grim Lavamancer should add some tempo to your clock. But it's a suboptimal card now, with all those Vengevines flying arround (no joke, lol).

If your meta requires a bouncer, just add 1 (maybe 2) maindeck and have fun.

[jin]

When is it a good time to use Stingscourger? I was running 3 Gempalm/3 Stingscourger as my removal but that was way before VV's day. I was thinking of leaving 1 Stingscourger but I cant justify it. Outside decks that cheat big things into play, what are they used for.

stingers not only were used to bounce iona when reanimator was introduced, it can still be used to bounce emrakul right now. But it was first introduced to bounce Zoo's pesky 2/3 and 3/3 on turn 2 so that lackey could connect. Where gempalm couldn't finish, stinger succeeded.



And I know this has been discussed here for a long time, but I prefer Thorn of Amethyst over Chalice of the Void. The reason is you can also use Thorn against control. I guess it all depends on the meta and how competent combo players are in your meta.

People have argued that Thorn of Amethyst is strong in more match ups, but after you play goblins enough, you will realize that goblins don't need to board against most control decks because most control decks are too slow to slow down goblins. The Rishadan Ports will suffice to slow down control decks. Control decks built to fight goblins is better dealt with in other means.

The reason why I like chalice over thorn is because chalice does not dilute the goblin game plan where goblins can keep up the pressure while not wasting tempo (thorn takes up your turn 2). I hope this helped.

[GoboLord]

stingers not only were used to bounce iona when reanimator was introduced, it can still be used to bounce emrakul right now. But it was first introduced to bounce Zoo's pesky 2/3 and 3/3 on turn 2 so that lackey could connect. Where gempalm couldn't finish, stinger succeeded.
I like them especially against Aggro Loam and The Rock


People have argued that Thorn of Amethyst is strong in more match ups, but after you play goblins enough, you will realize that goblins don't need to board against most control decks because most control decks are too slow to slow down goblins. The Rishadan Ports will suffice to slow down control decks. Control decks built to fight goblins is better dealt with in other means.

The reason why I like chalice over thorn is because chalice does not dilute the goblin game plan where goblins can keep up the pressure while not wasting tempo (thorn takes up your turn 2). I hope this helped.

***
3 GoboLord-stars for a short, good and experienced explanation!

[raindrainxi]

Control decks built to fight goblins is better dealt with in other means.

Can we detail this other means? Thanks.

[Vandalize]

Yeah, they're good against The Rock, as GoboLord said. I remember once, I was playing R/B Goblins, and I had Wort and a Warchief in play and a Stingscourger in GY. I kept boucing his Doran for like 4 or 5 turns, and hit him to 3 life (I was at 2 life). Then, he casted Doran again, casted a Noble Hierarch, and beat me with a 1/2 Birds of Paradise. It's a sad history :(

[ScatmanX]

People should not confuse things. Stingscourger is NOT removal. It is tempo gain. Either by connecting your Lackey, or removing a blocker and attacking with your 2/2, either by bouncing something expensive (Relicary) and blocking something big.
In today's meta, it is not worth it imo. It is awful against Vengevine. The only thing you'll accomplish is giving them another dude for them to cast and bring back Vengevines.
Bolts have proven to be the best removal right now. Few decks pack Ponder/Chain Lightning now, so it is usually enough to remove a Goyf early game, or even an Relicary. Costing 1 mana is really great too, with the added bonus of going to the dome once in a while.

@Gobbo: how do you side against UGmadness with that list (exactly like mine). I guess you have posted already, just need to check it out... Cause my MU against them hasn't been that great since I dropped Needles...

[jin]

***
3 GoboLord-stars for a short, good and experienced explanation!

Thanks GoboLord, I hope it was out of 3 stars..


Can we detail this other means? Thanks.

It depends on what kind of hate cards they have on your goblins. For example:

White enchantments (Humility/Mat/Absolute Law):
you would be much better off with Anarchy while porting them early on.

Red enchantments that do damage (Lightning Rift/Seizmic Assault):
pithing needle would be better (than thorn)

Artifacts that do damage (Jitte/Cursed Scroll):
your favourite artifact removal card

etc.... I hope I helped

[Tacosnape]

You know, I keep seeing all this roundabout logic of how:

A. Mana Denial is good against Survival.
B. Port is Mana Denial.

So therefore

C. Port is good against Survival.

This is the least true thing since untrue came to falsetown. Whatever that means.

The point of this is that Rishadan Port is balls garbage against Survival decks. If they drop a Fetchland and pass, or lead with a Hierarch, you're not going to keep them off of :1::g:. And if they get the Survival out, guess what they're going to do in response to your port activation? Activate Survival with the targeted land.

[Vandalize]

Port is bad against VVine. True.
But is this a reason not to run them? No.
VVines are the only deck in legacy? No.

Don't try to make an anti Survival of the Fittest sideboard. There're more decks in Legacy we should be worried about.

GoboLord said: Mana denial in form of Pyrokinesis/Bolts/Wastelands to kill Nobles/Birds/Dual Lands. The point here isn't killing their combo, it's almost impossible. It's just about delaying them a little bit to let your Piledrivers do their bloody job.

If you want to kill Vengevines completely, just change your deck to CounterTop and run some Peacekeepers.

[GoboLord]

@Gobbo: how do you side against UGmadness with that list (exactly like mine). I guess you have posted already, just need to check it out... Cause my MU against them hasn't been that great since I dropped Needles...

//Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan port

//Core [26]
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: SGC

//Flex [12]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Porspector

3 Mogg War Marshal [OUT]
1 Chieftain [OUT]

//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis [IN]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

[Vandalize]

I'm seriously thinking about dropping the Skirk Shooter combo MD. It's a really good strategy/combo, but I usually ramp or die to opponents before I have a chance to use them. I don't know if it's worth it. Should I?

[GoboLord]

I'm seriously thinking about dropping the Skirk Shooter combo MD. It's a really good strategy/combo, but I usually ramp or die to opponents before I have a chance to use them. I don't know if it's worth it. Should I?

It's up to you. I don't nessecarily see them as a combo (although their interaction is obviously very good).
You have to see that those cards are very good on their own. Skirk Porspector can fight Jitte, abouse your MWM and always provides you with free mana for Lightning Bolt. Sharpshooter is very good in the mirror, has a nice interaction with Pyrokinesis and is just gamebreaking with SGC, (while he also interacts with MWM of course).

[Tom T]

I'm seriously thinking about dropping the Skirk Shooter combo MD. It's a really good strategy/combo, but I usually ramp or die to opponents before I have a chance to use them. I don't know if it's worth it. Should I?
I have the same problem sometimes, when I'm too much concentrating on the combo and getting the pieces.
Now, I usually only concentrate on this combo when it's directly finishing an opponent and I don't count on removal.

Offtopic:
I've really found this thread usefull and it has certainly improved my skills with the deck!
Thanks all.

Tom

[antonbystedt]

I'm seriously thinking about dropping the Skirk Shooter combo MD. It's a really good strategy/combo, but I usually ramp or die to opponents before I have a chance to use them. I don't know if it's worth it. Should I?

I would never remove them from MD, the synergies and interactions with both cards (with or without each other), are just to great. They are my favorite silver bullets and have saved me lots of times. There are just to much you can do with both cards, i tend to get unexpected wins with both cards, on thier own or with each other, on games i would never win otherwise.
Sharpshooter can hold of all x/3 creatures, and make them trade with your 1/1, and it has such great synergi with MWM.
And i completely agree with GoboLords post, it can really win games together with cards like, Pyrokinesis, Siege-Gangs.
And as GoboLords says, Skirk can fight Jitte's and has a nice synergi with MWM. It can also protect you frome Daze, and it can also give you that last mana you need to win the game.

All those scenarios (and much more) has happened me alot, if you know how to stack and how to use the interactions with both these cards, they are really game winning.

[ScatmanX]

I would never remove them from MD
As much as I like them right now, I wouldn't say this.
They're awesome for todays meta, but may be not as good tomorrow...

[antonbystedt]

As much as I like them right now, I wouldn't say this.
They're awesome for todays meta, but may be not as good tomorrow...

I don't really think it's a meta call, both cards have nice interactions with the deck with or without eachother. To me, they are in my "core group", i would never remove my Siege-Gangs from MD, nor would i remove my Sharpshooter or Prospector.

But that is my oppinion.

[Nelis]

3 Mogg War Marshal [OUT]

//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis [IN]


I have no experience in playing against the deck with goblins but why exactly? Can you not kill 2 Vengevines by blocking and then deal a further 2 damage to each of the 2 Vengevines? They are also the best chumpblockers in the deck to give you some time. And they also combine very well with Gempalm. The more I think of it the more I think its not the right choice, I'm very interested in your reasoning.

[Tom T]

I have no experience in playing against the deck with goblins but why exactly? Can you not kill 2 Vengevines by blocking and then deal a further 2 damage to each of the 2 Vengevines? They are also the best chumpblockers in the deck to give you some time. And they also combine very well with Gempalm. The more I think of it the more I think its not the right choice, I'm very interested in your reasoning.

I think he was talking about UG Survival, which has Wonder to attack with flying VVines. Mogg War Marshal are awesome against GW Survival though.

[GoboLord]

I think he was talking about UG Survival, which has Wonder to attack with flying VVines. Mogg War Marshal are awesome against GW Survival though.

*
One GoboLord-star for paying attention ;-)

@ Nelis: It's just like Tom said: They almost always have Wonder.

[Vandalize]

They ALWAYS have Wonder. Flying Venvegines are really scary... But anyway, the most-wanted targets for Pyrokinesis and Lightning Bolts are not Vengevines.

Is Survival of the Fittest really getting banned? I think Vengevines should be banned, since SotF has been healthy in the format for a long period.

[Talanos]

I've been noticing a trend back towards mono-red with bolts and that WW/Perish are no longer as in vogue, even for decks running black splash.

For those of you having success with this strategy, how do you fare against goyfs and knights? Is the assumption that you're just going to chump them every turn while trying to swing back? There doesn't seem like alot that answers them if you remove the black, or at least, that's been my experience. I tried using stingers but they didn't really do alot in the long run. I agree with recent posts discussing how stinger is much more of an answer to Iona/Emrakul/Dreadnaught than it is to green fatties. Yes, you can use it to remove a blocker for lackey, but I find that decks with goyf/knight usually just bolt/path/cl your lackey instead of assuming they will be able to block it.

[Talanos]

Is Survival of the Fittest really getting banned? I think Vengevines should be banned, since SotF has been healthy in the format for a long period.

There's also Ooze combo, and in geneal SotF just seems to be the more degenerate card. Consider that in standard, where VV is legal but SotF is not, VV is not considered OP. I'm not sure that SotF would stay broken without VV, but its more certain that VV would not stay broken without SotF.

[Vandalize]

Ooze's combo is much weaker than Vengevines. Goblins can ramp them... Talking about standard makes no sense, since the formats are different.

And Vengevival isn't that broken... It's just a little overpowered now. I remember when Flash Hulk broke the format (that was a really stupid deck).

[GoboLord]

Ooze's combo is much weaker than Vengevines. Goblins can ramp them... Talking about standard makes no sense, since the formats are different.

And Vengevival isn't that broken... It's just a little overpowered now. I remember when Flash Hulk broke the format (that was a really stupid deck).

I find Ooze combo scarier that GW, although I don't know where to place UG Vengevines among those 2.

btw. Please don't bring Vengevine/Survival-banning-discussions to this thread, there is room for that elsewhere in this forum :rolleyes:

[ScatmanX]

I don't really think it's a meta call, both cards have nice interactions with the deck with or without eachother. To me, they are in my "core group", i would never remove my Siege-Gangs from MD, nor would i remove my Sharpshooter or Prospector.

But that is my oppinion.
If SotF is get the hammer, and the meta shift back how it was, I guess I'd drop them, and switch back to Rb goblins, with Weirdings MD and Perish SB. I loved my Rb goblins. To bad it isn't good right now.
Even MWM, that I absolutely love right now, would go away, if there were not any Zoo in the format...
Everything is metagame. (ok.... almost...)