[DTB] Vial Goblins

[TossUsToLions]

The thing about Sharpshooter and Prospector is that I would play them even even they weren't so synergistic. Sharpshooter absolutely wrecks some decks in today's meta, and interacts with many other cards in the deck. Sometimes we have to sacrifice some goblins when attacking to try to damage the opponent. Our creatures going to the graveyard trigger Sharpshooter, too. Also, as already stated, he works wonders with MWM and SGC.
Prospector on the other hand is great because he adds another playable one-drop to the deck, which has the ability to cheat mana-costs like our other one-drops (vial, lackey). I haven't used him against Jitte yet, but the ability to stop Jitte from totally destroying us (which happens frequently) is awesome

[dethangel666]

who are some of the really good goblin players beside jim davis?

[Nelis]

They ALWAYS have Wonder. Flying Venvegines are really scary... But anyway, the most-wanted targets for Pyrokinesis and Lightning Bolts are not Vengevines.

What are the most wanted targets? Or a better question is maybe what is the best tactic to fight it? I must find someone with UG Survival to test against.

[daPaule]

What are the most wanted targets? Or a better question is maybe what is the best tactic to fight it? I must find someone with UG Survival to test against.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-[DTB]-Vial-Goblins&p=504372&viewfull=1#post504372

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-[DTB]-Vial-Goblins&p=504383&viewfull=1#post504383

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-[DTB]-Vial-Goblins&p=504389&viewfull=1#post504389

You are welcome.

Right now I'm currently testing a modification of Gobbolords MD, still going Rb but just for perish in SB. In my meta there is still some bant running around therefore I think this is reasonable.

Modifications:
Goblins: -Piledriver // + Chieftain (I played Rb always with just 3 Pileys and I'm not really missing the 4th)
Manabase: 4 Waste, 2 Port, 4 Mire, 1 Foothills, 3 Badlands, 8 Mountain
SB: -1 Pyro, -Beartusk, -Tuktuk // +3 Perish

Testing on MWS gave me some better Rock and Bant matchups, but as I've woken up late AGAIN today.. no RL tourney for me :-(

greetings

[Mantis]

They ALWAYS have Wonder. Flying Venvegines are really scary... But anyway, the most-wanted targets for Pyrokinesis and Lightning Bolts are not Vengevines.
FoW is no good against Tendrills of Agony with 10 copies on the stack, I guess you side them out against ANT...

When they have Survival active with a ton of mana and get to a point where they have flying Vengevines, none of your cards matter, might as well side them all out. I don't necessarily disagree with taking out Mogg War Marshall against UG Madness/Survival, but I do disagree with the reasoning that Wonder is the reason why you should take them out.

Kyle: Cartman's side is right. For the wrong reasons.

The reason we play MWM is to try to drag out to the long game, where our card advantage kicks in. This works particulary well against Zoo for example. Against UG Madness however you don't have inevitiability, if you drag out they will just spit out an army of Vengevines and Rootwalla's on the table.

[ScatmanX]

The reason we play MWM is to try to drag out to the long game, where our card advantage kicks in. This works particulary well against Zoo for example. Against UG Madness however you don't have inevitiability, if you drag out they will just spit out an army of Vengevines and Rootwalla's on the table.
This is pretty much it.
Dragging the game here isn't as good as against Zoo, since they can simply draw SotF and win the game, even if it's turn 20.

[GoboLord]

FoW is no good against Tendrills of Agony with 10 copies on the stack, I guess you side them out against ANT...

When they have Survival active with a ton of mana and get to a point where they have flying Vengevines, none of your cards matter, might as well side them all out. I don't necessarily disagree with taking out Mogg War Marshall against UG Madness/Survival, but I do disagree with the reasoning that Wonder is the reason why you should take them out.

Kyle: Cartman's side is right. For the wrong reasons.

The reason we play MWM is to try to drag out to the long game, where our card advantage kicks in. This works particulary well against Zoo for example. Against UG Madness however you don't have inevitiability, if you drag out they will just spit out an army of Vengevines and Rootwalla's on the table.

Then let me defend my reasoning...

UG Vengevival has Wonder.
Wonder does not only play a role for Vengevines, but for all their creatures.
Most of those lists pack Jitte MD.
Flying Rootwalla's with Jitte equipped matter much.

We play MWM to chumpblock huge creatures and buy a few turns AND to stop their smaller creatures from attacking.
As noted above: their army of Rootwallas and Mongrels can easily be made flying.
Chumpblocking flying creatures with MWM oftentimes doesn't work.


btw. (not belonging to that Wonder/MWM-reasoing from before):
MWM is NOT only good to get into mid-/lategame. It also increases our Gempalm Incinerator's range.
UG Vengevival doesn't play huge creature, therefore GI oftentimes ranges far enough. Thus, another reason to board him out.

[flrn]

//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

What do you need the Boartusk Liege for?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

What do you need the Boartusk Liege for?

It's for Engineered Plague.

[GoboLord]

It's for Engineered Plague.


...and for the mirror.

[jrw1985]

who are some of the really good goblin players beside jim davis?

I'm sure most everyone on this forum thought of themself as the answer to this.

[jin]

I'm sure most everyone on this forum thought of themself as the answer to this.

I was going to say dethangel666 was.... but I thought it was off topic so I didn't post it. This question is actually very difficult to answer since Goblins has been around for sO.. so long that it becomes difficult to pinpoint the correct play for every situation and every permutation of the Goblin deck. Frequently different Goblin players top8 depending on metagame, match ups and so on.

I find that when piloting Goblins, a lot of how well you do depends on your opponent ability to comprehend Goblin's strategies. Your worst enemy is a player that has piloted a Goblin deck before because that player will know exactly when not to attack and also know to keep your goblins off of the board. You will also find that your important goblins like Warchief and Lackey will never stay on the board for too long which ruins the fun for the Goblin player.

There are a lot of Goblin players out there and I'm pretty sure all of the Legacy veterans have piloted a goblin deck in one form or another making outstanding Goblin players hard to find. Instead of looking at that player's list or watching that player's videos, you are better off just picking up the deck and learning it while reading about questions you have on the board. It'll probably be faster than finding a "really good goblin player" since it is a fairly easy deck to learn.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm sure most everyone on this forum thought of themself as the answer to this.

I was going to say GobboLord.

[GoboLord]

I was going to say dethangel666 was.... but I thought it was off topic so I didn't post it. This question is actually very difficult to answer since Goblins has been around for sO.. so long that it becomes difficult to pinpoint the correct play for every situation and every permutation of the Goblin deck. Frequently different Goblin players top8 depending on metagame, match ups and so on.

I find that when piloting Goblins, a lot of how well you do depends on your opponent ability to comprehend Goblin's strategies. Your worst enemy is a player that has piloted a Goblin deck before because that player will know exactly when not to attack and also know to keep your goblins off of the board. You will also find that your important goblins like Warchief and Lackey will never stay on the board for too long which ruins the fun for the Goblin player.

There are a lot of Goblin players out there and I'm pretty sure all of the Legacy veterans have piloted a goblin deck in one form or another making outstanding Goblin players hard to find. Instead of looking at that player's list or watching that player's videos, you are better off just picking up the deck and learning it while reading about questions you have on the board. It'll probably be faster than finding a "really good goblin player" since it is a fairly easy deck to learn.

Your answeris making this issue "on-topic" (although the question was off-topic).

I agree with you that Goblins is a very easy deck to learn, but it is a hard way to optimize your results, your list and your playingstyle.
Most of what it means to be good on Goblins has to do with experience. Let me give an example:
Goblins have a very wide range of cardchoices for their sideboard. You need a lot of experience to know how each sideboard card is interacting with a) your deck and b) in the MU where you need them. Plus, I find with experience you can make a lot of cardchoices irrelevant for your sideboard. e.g. it may be an option to pack Perish in SB to fight Zoo. With some experience you can beat them without it. The same is true for Red Elemental Blast and Merfolk.
I find that Goblins is a good deck to collect experiences with because you can be sure that it will be(and has been) a strong deck in the format for very long. This is not true for decks like Vengevival and ANT. Goblins have a lot of rather tough MUs which can be made good just because of your experience with the deck (which your opponent hasn't, just because his deck is unlikely to have a long history in legacy).

I don't know if I have made my point clear, but in summary I would say that in the case of Goblins: SKILL = EXPERIENCE² + X

[Tom T]

.. Instead of looking at that player's list or watching that player's videos, you are better off just picking up the deck and learning it while reading about questions you have on the board. It'll probably be faster than finding a "really good goblin player" since it is a fairly easy deck to learn.

I think it's difficult to play goblins most effectively, because a goblin-player has so much choices to make. Especially when playing a control-ish role.
Things like Matron-searches and Sharpshooter interactions are harder choices than i.e. Zoo will ever have.

[jin]

I think it's difficult to play goblins most effectively, because a goblin-player has so much choices to make. Especially when playing a control-ish role.
Things like Matron-searches and Sharpshooter interactions are harder choices than i.e. Zoo will ever have.

Have you played Zoo? Zoo is a bully, but they have to cower to a 1/1 Lackey. They can't even attack to an open field with Vial at 1 without mana open for removal. It's pretty tough to fight a competant goblin playing with Zoo as there are endless waves of green men tangling up your cats. Against combo, you are scared shitless and against Countertop, you are fighting the Firespouts and trying to keep them off Counterbalance. Zoo has it pretty tough since all it can really do is do damage, but sometimes even that is impaired.

Also, I didn't say you can play it effectively, I just said you can learn how to play it. You can learn the basics faster by picking up the deck rather than watching a really good goblin player. I agree that goblins has a lot of choices but I really don't think Matrons or Sharpshooter activations are the most difficult part of playing goblins:

Matron ==> Ringleader; Sharpshooter shooting ==> in response to a creature about to hit the yard.

It's really THAT simple. The most difficult part about goblins in today's metagame is how do you keep a mass of goblins on the table without your opponents killing off your favourite ones...


I've probably watched 30+ people play Goblins, and I can say with the utmost confidence that I have never once seen a really amazingly good Goblins player. I -always- see mistakes. From good players, no less. I always wonder in the back of my mind if I'm that much better to spot the mistakes, or if I make the same mistakes when I play it and just don't see it (Which I suspect is the case), but I am sure of this: Goblins, while being one of the easiest decks to pick up, is probably among the top two or three most difficult to master, because not only is it often a taxing exercise in combat math, it can also be very demanding from game to game to learn who has inevitability and how defensive or offensive you should play and when.

I miss fighting landstill. It was so easy back then, you just swing mindlessly and tank the factory damage.

[Tacosnape]

I've probably watched 30+ people play Goblins, and I can say with the utmost confidence that I have never once seen a really amazingly good Goblins player. I -always- see mistakes. From good players, no less. I always wonder in the back of my mind if I'm that much better to spot the mistakes, or if I make the same mistakes when I play it and just don't see it (Which I suspect is the case), but I am sure of this: Goblins, while being one of the easiest decks to pick up, is probably among the top two or three most difficult to master, because not only is it often a taxing exercise in combat math, it can also be very demanding from game to game to learn who has inevitability and how defensive or offensive you should play and when.

[Mantis]

I'm sure most everyone on this forum thought of themself as the answer to this.
I say close the thread and declare jrw1985 the winner.

[Amon Amarth]

Goblins is similar to Storm based Combo decks in that both of them live and die off of how well they can manage their mana. Goblins has such a spread out curve and so many mana accelerators it can be hard to plan out your next few turns. That's not even factoring in things like Wasteland and Port which also suck up mana. It's really difficult.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Goblins is similar to Storm based Combo decks in that both of them live and die off of how well they can manage their mana. Goblins has such a spread out curve and so many mana accelerators it can be hard to plan out your next few turns. That's not even factoring in things like Wasteland and Port which also suck up mana. It's really difficult.

Maybe that's why when I'm not playing Tendrils or Dredge, I'm playing Gobbos :)

[raindrainxi]

What do you need the Boartusk Liege for?

It was discussed here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557-[DTB]-Vial-Goblins/page283)

In my personal opinion and experience (albeit very short), Goblins is the most fun deck to play. It doesn't really have a worst or best match up, only a bad or good pilot.

[Vandalize]

In my personal opinion and experience (albeit very short), Goblins is the most fun deck to play. It doesn't really have a worst or best match up, only a bad or good pilot.

There is one factor that's missing here. Luck... Sometimes even a real skilled player can fall to bad luck (some examples: awful topdecks of yours, good foe's topdecking, mulligan and no Leyline of the Void, topdecking a Leyline of the Void [this is so awful, lol], etc...).

I'd say magic is about 80% skill + 20% luck.

[raindrainxi]

well actually, as with all card games, luck is always a factor.

[GoboLord]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

Yesterday I participated in our monthly Legacy tournament. I ended up 2-0-4 after 6 rounds – rather bad result. But that’s exactly what I want to focus on in this report: people tend to write reports only when they performed good, but our darkest days are those from which we can learn the most! Yesterday there were several factors involved in what drove me to write this bad-day-report. Here we go:

//Lands [22]
14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: Siege-Gang Commander

//Flex Slots [7+5]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

As I said: I want to focus only on the MU that turned out in my opponents favor. I will first describe the course of the match and then take a look at what went wrong there.

Round 1 - Aggro Loam
G1: He wins
G2: I win
G3: I win
2-1

Round 2: GW Survival
Game 1: I know what he is playing. He goes first. So I mull into a hand that can effectively deal with his manasources (Hierarch and non-basiclands). My decision turns out to be good, but he seems to know what my plan is. In the course of first 4 turns he has 3 Noble Hierarchs, while I had only 1 Bolt and 1 Incinerator for them. He fetches on basiclands only, so my double Wasteland are plain useless. Still this game last pretty long. When he goes for the Iona + Retainer “combo” I have Aether Vial @ 3 and my army is somewhat able to frighten his Iona, it can’t launch for an attack, neither can I. With Survival of the Fittest he gets to fetch some Tarmogoyfs and wins a few turns later.

IN: 4 Pyrokinesis
OUT: Goblin Chieftain, 3 Lightning Bolt

Game 2: I follow my philosophy from G1 and mull down to 5 to find mnanadenial and removal. He scoops on turn 5 because Pyrokinesis ate his Noble Hierarch and Quasali Pridemage, Wasteland destroyed Horizon Canopy, Rishadan Port tapped his lonely basic forest and Sharpshooter lay waiting for more Hierarchs.

Game 3: Again I have to take mulligan into manadenial + removal, nevertheless I have T1 Vial. Double port shuts his mana off after Gempalm and Pyrokinesis cleared the board. I find myself with only Warchief in play, Vial @ 3, Matron and Sharpshooter in hand, and 2 Ports/2 Mountains in play, while my opponent has 3 Forests and 1 Plains.
Meanwhile some spectators came to watch us playing. One of them (sitting next to me) was commenting on my moves: “good”, “nice”, “what else can we expect from a goblin player with YOUR experience?” and the like. Well…I’ll come back to this later. Let’s return to the game.
I tapped Vial for Matron @ Ringleader. Then I made a poor move: I played Ringleader to hopefully find Piledriver and attack for 12. Instead I found nothing. In my EOT he discards Iona and goes for Retainer. I’m unable to use my Ports in his upkeep, so I allow him to have access of W to cast Retainer. His combo finishes me off. I lost just because I was too greedy…because I didn’t play that Sharphooter on my hand and keep Port + X to seal away his W mana.
1-2

What went wrong here? Why didn’t I win a MU that I practiced like a hundred times? Why didn’t I beat a list that is 98% the same as the one I practiced with?
First of all: I do not want to blame that spectator who cheered me in G3. If I had found him irritating I could have told him to please be quiet – but I didn’t. I must admit that I somehow felt honored by his “praise” and this is what actually played a role for that poor move. I got arrogant and thought that I was in total control of the game (remember: he had only 5 permanents 1 of them was actually a danger) because I know this MU from the bottom to the top.
What can we learn from that?
* Never ever pass control of a gamestate away so lightly.
* Don’t get arrogant, ever! Especially not when you are fighting a DTB.
* Note that even the audience can influence a gamestate (although unknowingly and indirect). Praise is nice. It’s in human nature to easily adopt positive comments over ourselves without questioning them.

Round 3 - Uwb Faeries
Game 1: I have a gut-feeling that my opponent doesn’t play blue (although I have never seen him before). I have to mull down to 6 and keep a rather risky hand (relying on my gut-feeling): Wasteland, Aether Vial, Warchief, Ringleader, Gempalm, SGC. I go first. Force of will catches my T1 Vial…fuck. I mange to not find a single land among the next 10 cards.

IN: 4 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
OUT: 3 MWM, 1 Goblin Chieftain, 1 Lightning Bolt

Game 2: I have to take mulligan to 4 because I don’t want to repeat that mistake from G1 (and in part because I didn’t have a land on my first and 3rd hand). He keeps his first hand and greets me with T2 bitterblossom and T3 Jitte. Still he has a hard time killing me. 8-9 turns later he kills me cause I’m not able to find goblins anymore
0-2

What went wrong here?
Goblins can be really scary even with mulligan @ 5. That’s why some players like it so much: it’s just sooo consistant. Our deck is very reliable (most of the time)…at least more reliable than my gut-feeling. My mistake was that I should have mulled down to 5 in G1. G2 is just what I deserved, still it wasn’t easy for him to kill me (even with early jitte), but I don’t feel bad for losing against his draw with me having to mull down to 4.
What can we learn from that?
* Never keep risky hands. Our deck is just too reliable and can be really scary even with Mull5
* Our deck can fight back even with Mull4
* Don’t rely on your gut-feeling (at least it’s MY gut-feeling one shouldn’t rely on)

Round 4 – Goblins
We know that we are playing the mirror.
Game 1: He goes first, I win.
Game 2: He goes first, I win.
2-0

Round 5 – Enchantress
Game 1: I know what he’s playing, so I mull down to 5 to keep a rather fast hand. I’m able to take him down to 11 before he locks me off.
Before I scoop I ask him for how long he’s been playing his deck (cause he’s rather young: ~15). He tells me that this is his 2nd tourney ever. I expect him to be a bad player.

IN: 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Vexing Shusher
OUT: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 2 Aether Vial.

Game 2: I take mulligan to 5 to have an aggressive start. All I find is Wasteland, Vial, Chalice, 2 MWM. I go first with Vial and find a land on turn 2 to cast Chalice @1. On turn 3 he has Ghostly Prison. Still I’m able to beat him down to 5 before he locks me off. After the game he tells me that he has a lot of practice with his deck; with this MU in particular; cause he has been introduced to Enchantress by “goldfishing” Goblins a hundred time.
0-2

What went wrong here?
You be the judge, I really don’t know.
What can we learn from that?
* age hardly tells anything about experience
* fast starts can beat Enchantress
* still it is a tough MU

Round 6 – W Moat Staxx (yeah, the one with 4 Moat and 4 Humility)
Game 1: I know what he is playing, however, he goes first and those facts don’t influence my mulligan decisions. I mull down to 5. He starts with Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, Trinisphere. On turn 2 He plays Humilty, I scoop.
IN: 1 Vexing Shusher
OUT: 1 Gempalm Incinerator

Game 2: I mull down to 5 and keep a hand with only Skirk Prospector, but lots of Wastelands/Ports. I am able to effectively shut his mana off while my lonely Skrikprospector beats him down to 11. With 6 lands and 2 Ports I play Goblin Chieftain (with 2 Lands and 1 R from Skirk Prospector) to be able to tap 2 lands in his upkeep. This was a poor move cause I could just have tapped 3 lands, attack for 4 and use Skirk Prospector’s mana for Port activation in his upkeep. I tap 2 lands (Ancient Tomb, Plains), although he has 2 Plains. He plays Mox Diamond and Ancient tomb from hand and casts Moat. I regret not having tapped those 2 Plains of his. On my turn I play SGC. On his turn he play Armageddon. I regret having sacrificed my Prospector (cause he is on 5 meanwhile, because of his Ancient Tomb). I don’t find lands anymore to make use of SGC’s tokens.
0-2

What went wrong here?
I clearly do not have enough experience with this MU. Plus, this is my first tourney playing Skirk Porspector (not having practiced his interaction before). This shows me that I have to practice a) the Staxx-MU and b) the use of Skirk Prospector.
What do we learn from that?
* Skirk Prospector is a good way to fight Armageddon
* Staxx can be very fast in locking us away
* Staxx is somewhat vulnerable to mandenial (to Port in particular, cause they have hard times to provide WW).

I hope you found this rather unusual report helpful. Although it’s more fun to report good results we should note that we can learn much more from our mistakes than we want to admit. Plus, bad performance happens quite often and by evaluating on the tourney and the matches in particular one can avoid making mistakes over again. This might also be helpful for other players in the sense that they might be able to avoid those mistakes.

[jin]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

Yesterday I participated in our monthly Legacy tournament. I ended up 2-0-4 after 6 rounds – rather bad result. But that’s exactly what I want to focus on in this report: people tend to write reports only when they performed good, but our darkest days are those from which we can learn the most! Yesterday there were several factors involved in what drove me to write this bad-day-report. Here we go:

//Lands [22]
14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: Siege-Gang Commander

//Flex Slots [7+5]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

As I said: I want to focus only on the MU that turned out in my opponents favor. I will first describe the course of the match and then take a look at what went wrong there.

Round 1 - Aggro Loam
G1: He wins
G2: I win
G3: I win
2-1

Round 2: GW Survival
Game 1: I know what he is playing. He goes first. So I mull into a hand that can effectively deal with his manasources (Hierarch and non-basiclands). My decision turns out to be good, but he seems to know what my plan is. In the course of first 4 turns he has 3 Noble Hierarchs, while I had only 1 Bolt and 1 Incinerator for them. He fetches on basiclands only, so my double Wasteland are plain useless. Still this game last pretty long. When he goes for the Iona + Retainer “combo” I have Aether Vial @ 3 and my army is somewhat able to frighten his Iona, it can’t launch for an attack, neither can I. With Survival of the Fittest he gets to fetch some Tarmogoyfs and wins a few turns later.

IN: 4 Pyrokinesis
OUT: Goblin Chieftain, 3 Lightning Bolt

Game 2: I follow my philosophy from G1 and mull down to 5 to find mnanadenial and removal. He scoops on turn 5 because Pyrokinesis ate his Noble Hierarch and Quasali Pridemage, Wasteland destroyed Horizon Canopy, Rishadan Port tapped his lonely basic forest and Sharpshooter lay waiting for more Hierarchs.

Game 3: Again I have to take mulligan into manadenial + removal, nevertheless I have T1 Vial. Double port shuts his mana off after Gempalm and Pyrokinesis cleared the board. I find myself with only Warchief in play, Vial @ 3, Matron and Sharpshooter in hand, and 2 Ports/2 Mountains in play, while my opponent has 3 Forests and 1 Plains.
Meanwhile some spectators came to watch us playing. One of them (sitting next to me) was commenting on my moves: “good”, “nice”, “what else can we expect from a goblin player with YOUR experience?” and the like. Well…I’ll come back to this later. Let’s return to the game.
I tapped Vial for Matron @ Ringleader. Then I made a poor move: I played Ringleader to hopefully find Piledriver and attack for 12. Instead I found nothing. In my EOT he discards Iona and goes for Retainer. I’m unable to use my Ports in his upkeep, so I allow him to have access of W to cast Retainer. His combo finishes me off. I lost just because I was too greedy…because I didn’t play that Sharphooter on my hand and keep Port + X to seal away his W mana.
1-2

What went wrong here? Why didn’t I win a MU that I practiced like a hundred times? Why didn’t I beat a list that is 98% the same as the one I practiced with?
First of all: I do not want to blame that spectator who cheered me in G3. If I had found him irritating I could have told him to please be quiet – but I didn’t. I must admit that I somehow felt honored by his “praise” and this is what actually played a role for that poor move. I got arrogant and thought that I was in total control of the game (remember: he had only 5 permanents 1 of them was actually a danger) because I know this MU from the bottom to the top.
What can we learn from that?
* Never ever pass control of a gamestate away so lightly.
* Don’t get arrogant, ever! Especially not when you are fighting a DTB.
* Note that even the audience can influence a gamestate (although unknowingly and indirect). Praise is nice. It’s in human nature to easily adopt positive comments over ourselves without questioning them.

Round 3 - Uwb Faeries
Game 1: I have a gut-feeling that my opponent doesn’t play blue (although I have never seen him before). I have to mull down to 6 and keep a rather risky hand (relying on my gut-feeling): Wasteland, Aether Vial, Warchief, Ringleader, Gempalm, SGC. I go first. Force of will catches my T1 Vial…fuck. I mange to not find a single land among the next 10 cards.

IN: 4 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
OUT: 3 MWM, 1 Goblin Chieftain, 1 Lightning Bolt

Game 2: I have to take mulligan to 4 because I don’t want to repeat that mistake from G1 (and in part because I didn’t have a land on my first and 3rd hand). He keeps his first hand and greets me with T2 bitterblossom and T3 Jitte. Still he has a hard time killing me. 8-9 turns later he kills me cause I’m not able to find goblins anymore
0-2

What went wrong here?
Goblins can be really scary even with mulligan @ 5. That’s why some players like it so much: it’s just sooo consistant. Our deck is very reliable (most of the time)…at least more reliable than my gut-feeling. My mistake was that I should have mulled down to 5 in G1. G2 is just what I deserved, still it wasn’t easy for him to kill me (even with early jitte), but I don’t feel bad for losing against his draw with me having to mull down to 4.
What can we learn from that?
* Never keep risky hands. Our deck is just too reliable and can be really scary even with Mull5
* Our deck can fight back even with Mull4
* Don’t rely on your gut-feeling (at least it’s MY gut-feeling one shouldn’t rely on)

Round 4 – Goblins
We know that we are playing the mirror.
Game 1: He goes first, I win.
Game 2: He goes first, I win.
2-0

Round 5 – Enchantress
Game 1: I know what he’s playing, so I mull down to 5 to keep a rather fast hand. I’m able to take him down to 11 before he locks me off.
Before I scoop I ask him for how long he’s been playing his deck (cause he’s rather young: ~15). He tells me that this is his 2nd tourney ever. I expect him to be a bad player.

IN: 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Vexing Shusher
OUT: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 2 Aether Vial.

Game 2: I take mulligan to 5 to have an aggressive start. All I find is Wasteland, Vial, Chalice, 2 MWM. I go first with Vial and find a land on turn 2 to cast Chalice @1. On turn 3 he has Ghostly Prison. Still I’m able to beat him down to 5 before he locks me off. After the game he tells me that he has a lot of practice with his deck; with this MU in particular; cause he has been introduced to Enchantress by “goldfishing” Goblins a hundred time.
0-2

What went wrong here?
You be the judge, I really don’t know.
What can we learn from that?
* age hardly tells anything about experience
* fast starts can beat Enchantress
* still it is a tough MU

Round 6 – W Moat Staxx (yeah, the one with 4 Moat and 4 Humility)
Game 1: I know what he is playing, however, he goes first and those facts don’t influence my mulligan decisions. I mull down to 5. He starts with Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, Trinisphere. On turn 2 He plays Humilty, I scoop.
IN: 1 Vexing Shusher
OUT: 1 Gempalm Incinerator

Game 2: I mull down to 5 and keep a hand with only Skirk Prospector, but lots of Wastelands/Ports. I am able to effectively shut his mana off while my lonely Skrikprospector beats him down to 11. With 6 lands and 2 Ports I play Goblin Chieftain (with 2 Lands and 1 R from Skirk Prospector) to be able to tap 2 lands in his upkeep. This was a poor move cause I could just have tapped 3 lands, attack for 4 and use Skirk Prospector’s mana for Port activation in his upkeep. I tap 2 lands (Ancient Tomb, Plains), although he has 2 Plains. He plays Mox Diamond and Ancient tomb from hand and casts Moat. I regret not having tapped those 2 Plains of his. On my turn I play SGC. On his turn he play Armageddon. I regret having sacrificed my Prospector (cause he is on 5 meanwhile, because of his Ancient Tomb). I don’t find lands anymore to make use of SGC’s tokens.
0-2

What went wrong here?
I clearly do not have enough experience with this MU. Plus, this is my first tourney playing Skirk Porspector (not having practiced his interaction before). This shows me that I have to practice a) the Staxx-MU and b) the use of Skirk Prospector.
What do we learn from that?
* Skirk Prospector is a good way to fight Armageddon
* Staxx can be very fast in locking us away
* Staxx is somewhat vulnerable to mandenial (to Port in particular, cause they have hard times to provide WW).

I hope you found this rather unusual report helpful. Although it’s more fun to report good results we should note that we can learn much more from our mistakes than we want to admit. Plus, bad performance happens quite often and by evaluating on the tourney and the matches in particular one can avoid making mistakes over again. This might also be helpful for other players in the sense that they might be able to avoid those mistakes.

First I'd like to say your report was great. I've been talking to my teammates and have always said how people don't write useful tournament reports. Stories of victory seem like a glory hog's way of gloating. This is how tournament reports should be written since people need to discuss where the flaws in the card choices or plays are. Stories of victories are useful to show how the deck works, but I'm sure the primer does that better. We don't need more of those. We need more adaptation and in order for that to happen, we have to analyze the flaws.

Let me first say this. When I read your report, I notice you mulligan quite aggressively for specific hate. I think I have to disagree with this line of play since if you start off with 5 cards every game, you are effectively nullifying one of your own Ringleaders. I only mulligan for land and 1-drop and it seems to work very well. I don't mullligan for hate... shit happens.

Now referring to your tournament, please note that when I say "you," I don't mean you specifically, but Goblin players in general.

Round 2: I think you saw your own flaw. To elaborate though, when a Goblin player has their lock on, they should never break it especially if they have a board advtage. Just keep swinging until they break out, then do your thing. You don't need to rush into Goblin Piledrivers because every turn you get, you get to draw also.

Round 3: Poor intuition game one. You knew it was risky. Sharpshooter should have demolished him. What happened?

Round 5: You weren't prepared, you need Anarchy.

Round 6: It's called Dutch Stax. Again, you need Anarchy and ALWAYS PORT COLOUR MANA. I doubt Smokestack will hurt you much. You play Mogg War Marshall and you can get permanens out way faster than he can.

I hope I helped.

[Roelke]

You can't win the all.

I've played Golbins in an event with 58-59 people yesterday. Usually i don't play goblins but because I traded must of the stuff I just went with it. I copied gobolords list because he made top 8 at the dutch legacy champs. The only changes i made: -1 skirk prospector +1 incinerator and sideboard -1 vexing shusher +1 boarktusk liege (compared to the list in his last post).

Short report:
Round 1: UGW bant agro
Game one my lackey gets countered but warchief + piledriver give me enough speed to win the game
Game two: I port him out of the game while beating for 3 each turn; he had a Jitte in play so I took thing slow and kept him of his green mana for most of the game

It's really nice to see how you can play agro in one game and play control in the other.

Round two Dark Horizons
Game one my ringleaders+matrons are to much for his removal and discard
Game two he gets plague+deed+beats
Game three he gets a plague again and a hymm hits my liege. I manage to clear the board with a playset of piledrivers in the extra turns, we are very close to killing each other but we both don't draw our outs

Round three: Counterthopter
Game one I get a fast start an kill him before he can muster any defense.
Game two he gets an early thopter foundry, I search for the scrapper but he has a second foundry; I would have won the game if he had not countered my sharpshooter but I did not expect the blue elemental blast. He gets a humilty so I concede to save time
Game three I have a fast start but his early removal slows me; he gets a counterbalance and a moat at 11 life. I resolve a vail to get the siege gang I tutored for, but because I am holding to I decide to play one of the (which obviosly gets countered), I was affraid of humilty; when the vail gets to 5 I want to kill him in 1 shot so when I got my 12th mana I activate my vail; he kills some of my golbins to make sure I cant kill him, finds humilty the turn after that and kills me with Jace

In hindhsight it would have been an easy win if I just held on the SCG and used on of them in his end step and the other one in my turn.

Round four: UG/w survival
game 1:An early lackey+removal win this game
Game 2: he gets an active Jitte but a combination of bolts, pyrokenesis incinerators and a siege gang leave him withouth guys and me with about 4 power which is enough to kill him in a few turn

Round five: dutch stack
game one I lackey in warchief, lackey and vail to set up a fast turn 3 or 4 kill (he only played a plains so far); he goes: turn 2 moat, turn 3 humility; turn 4 elspeth :(
Game two; when my first attack hits we note that he forgot to shuffle a card from his deck back..akward.. unfortunatly that means a game loss for him.
Game three: Ports and wastelands slow hiim down somewhat but not enough to win before he gets moat and humility again.

I think this matchup is practactly unwinnable; the deck doesn;t see much play, if you want to beat it you'll really need anarchy in the board.

Round 6: ANT
Game 1: I make a turn 1 lackey that puts a siege-gang in play and make a turn 2 piledriver to give my opponent one turn to win. He brainstorms but does not find the out he needs to win
Game 2: I mulligan to a 3 mountain, lackey gang commander hand, while my opponent mulls to 5 as well. The siege gang gets Thoughtseized but I get a matron in pliedrive to put him on a 2 turn clock. A port on my side takes care of his black mana and The final turn he is one or two mana short to win.

My record was 3-2-1 which was okay; I could have prevented the loss against the counterthopter deck but I did not expect to win against the dutch stax deck. If I'd play the deck again I probably would not play anarchy; the sideboard seems perfect to handle survival, combo and most agro decks the only thing I might consider is to play more Combo-hate.

[GoboLord]

First I'd like to say your report was great. I've been talking to my teammates and have always said how people don't write useful tournament reports. Stories of victory seem like a glory hog's way of gloating. This is how tournament reports should be written since people need to discuss where the flaws in the card choices or plays are. Stories of victories are useful to show how the deck works, but I'm sure the primer does that better. We don't need more of those. We need more adaptation and in order for that to happen, we have to analyze the flaws.
Thanks for that.


Let me first say this. When I read your report, I notice you mulligan quite aggressively for specific hate. I think I have to disagree with this line of play since if you start off with 5 cards every game, you are effectively nullifying one of your own Ringleaders. I only mulligan for land and 1-drop and it seems to work very well. I don't mullligan for hate... shit happens.
I aggressively take mulligans in the MUs that are very very tough without enough speed (Enchantress, Staxx). I'd not take mulligan into hate. Most of the mulligan-decisions were based on the fact that the hands was simply not keepable. In the tourney I didnt even notice that I was taking mulligan too much. When I took a look at my notes today I saw those mulligan notes and went like "WTF?". In general I agree with you mulligan-philiosophy - I just couldn't compensate too many bad hands.


Now referring to your tournament, please note that when I say "you," I don't mean you specifically, but Goblin players in general.

Round 2: I think you saw your own flaw. To elaborate though, when a Goblin player has their lock on, they should never break it especially if they have a board advtage. Just keep swinging until they break out, then do your thing. You don't need to rush into Goblin Piledrivers because every turn you get, you get to draw also.
I know, this was just plain stupid (as I said in my conclusion of this part).


Round 3: Poor intuition game one. You knew it was risky. Sharpshooter should have demolished him. What happened?
Well, its was Uwb Faeries - with U for Daze/Force/Spellstutter Sprite and W for Swords to Plowshares. I did have Sharpshooter after draining his counters and wasting his Tundras. But at that point his Jitte didn't allow me to keep him.


Round 5: You weren't prepared, you need Anarchy.
Disagreed. Actually the last time Enchantress appeared on oput monthly tourney was like 5 months ago. Yesterday there were 4. Not using Enchantment hate was a meta-call.


Round 6: It's called Dutch Stax. Again, you need Anarchy and ALWAYS PORT COLOUR MANA.
Yeah, that's what I keep praying each and every Goblin player for like 1 year. It was just a stupid mistake (actually a row of stupid mistakes). And again: disagreed on the Anarchy. It's a metacall again.

[jin]

Disagreed. Actually the last time Enchantress appeared on oput monthly tourney was like 5 months ago. Yesterday there were 4. Not using Enchantment hate was a meta-call.


Yeah, that's what I keep praying each and every Goblin player for like 1 year. It was just a stupid mistake (actually a row of stupid mistakes). And again: disagreed on the Anarchy. It's a metacall again.

Well, what I'm saying is you needed Anarchy since you had to face both Enchantress and Stax (you need it in your metagame). I wouldn't expect to need Anarchy either. Yeah, it just seems like it wasn't your day today. I guess Vandalize's 20% Luck got you...

[raindrainxi]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

Yesterday I participated in our monthly Legacy tournament. I ended up 2-0-4 after 6 rounds – rather bad result. But that’s exactly what I want to focus on in this report: people tend to write reports only when they performed good, but our darkest days are those from which we can learn the most! Yesterday there were several factors involved in what drove me to write this bad-day-report.

--------

I hope you found this rather unusual report helpful. Although it’s more fun to report good results we should note that we can learn much more from our mistakes than we want to admit. Plus, bad performance happens quite often and by evaluating on the tourney and the matches in particular one can avoid making mistakes over again. This might also be helpful for other players in the sense that they might be able to avoid those mistakes.

With this post I have new found respect for you, GoboLord! :wink:
It is one thing to post all accomplishments, but to admit your inadequacies in order for green, inexperienced players such as myself to pick up on is the true sign of a veteran.

With that saying, I like how you demonstrated how to effectively use ports to lock out opponents, it is in this specific area that I am finding myself not maximizing its abilities. Can we discuss more of our experiences on port , and to some extent wasteland, game winning strategies? Thanks!

[Amon Amarth]

@Gobolord: Good report. Being able to learn from your mistakes, I have found, is very rewarding. And god damn every time I play against Enchantress it's like they don't even have a life total; I'm always 1 turn away from alpha striking and they just lock me out and there is nothing I can do. Such is life. Did you end up liking the Skirk Prospector? It's always nice to have another 1 drop and the silly things you can do with the guy is so cool.

[GoboLord]

With this post I have new found respect for you, GoboLord! :wink:
It is one thing to post all accomplishments, but to admit your inadequacies in order for green, inexperienced players such as myself to pick up on is the true sign of a veteran.

With that saying, I like how you demonstrated how to effectively use ports to lock out opponents, it is in this specific area that I am finding myself not maximizing its abilities. Can we discuss more of our experiences on port , and to some extent wasteland, game winning strategies? Thanks!
Thank you.
I've been trying Ports for 2 months now and I still find myself either over- or underusing them in certain MUs. Their value in MU's in which manadenial means everything is obvious (like Landstill, Vengevival, Threshold). Maybe other players (that have used them ever since) could comment on that?


@Gobolord: Good report. Being able to learn from your mistakes, I have found, is very rewarding. And god damn every time I play against Enchantress it's like they don't even have a life total; I'm always 1 turn away from alpha striking and they just lock me out and there is nothing I can do. Such is life. Did you end up liking the Skirk Prospector? It's always nice to have another 1 drop and the silly things you can do with the guy is so cool.

Skirk Prospector is just another card I virtually never played before. I've been packing this guy only cause ScatmanX convinced me to do so. I found him very useful during the testing phase (with GW Vengevival) although I didn't get to abuse him on the last tourney. I guess it needs some more practice. I can only say that he is a freak if you totally use your lands for mandenial. e.g.
You control 2 Mountain, 1 Port 1 Skirk Prospector.
play MWM with 2 Mountain. sac MWM in opponent's upkeep for Port-activation.

Actually I'm better in "learning-by-doing" when it comes to consideration of so far untested cards. Therefore I can tell you more about Ports and Prospector in like 3 weeks (preparation phase for another great tournament).

[ScatmanX]

Thank you you.
I've been trying Ports for 2 months now and I still find myself either over- or underusing them in certain MUs. Their value in MU's in which manadenial means everything is obvious (like Landstill, Vengevival, Threshold). Maybe other players (that have used them ever since) could comment on that?
The deal about Port is that, if you start using it, you have to stick with that plan.
Take your Stax MU for instance. You had soft lock there. Sure he could draw 2 Plains, and win the game, but you had the upper had there. Casting your goblin was a mistake, because it rendered all the work you had locking him, useless, since he only needed to have his mana available once. What I'm trying to say is: If you start locking your opponent, specially with multiples Ports, keep doing that until you have lethal. Don't break your lock, because 1 turn is all your opponent needs.
I lost 2 games already to Enchantress because I didn't use my Port to cast some goblins, just for 1 turn, and got locked out of the game for good.

Another issue about Port is: You have to evaluate how much it is going to slow down your opponent, and how much it is going to slow you down. I mean, you can choose to use it turn 2, instead of playing a MWM. There are some thing you can take in consideration:
1- Do you have more lands?
2- Do you have an Wasteland too?
3- The land your opponent cast is a basic? Fetch?
4- Do you have an Warchief?
5- How good is your creature curve in your hand?
6- You have Vial/Lackey?
7- How much colored mana does your opponent have?
8- How much cost the BOMB in your opponent deck?

Now, usually, if I have more lands, I'll use Ports, because with this play we may be able to stifle his gameplan, while only slowing down a little ours.
If I have a Waste, and he play a nonbasic, I'd use Port. This because, this way, I'll have 3 lands by turn 3 (mountain, Waste, Port) and he'll have 2. So in your turn, you can decide, depending on the 2nd land he played, whether you want to destroy that land or not.
If you have a Warchief, and just lands, you could wait too, once the MWM you would play for 2, turn 2, will eventually just cost 1 mana.
If you have an awesome curve, and can get the guy dead by turn 3-4, don't slow your game down because of Port. Go for it.
The same is truth if you have Lackey or Vial. This is the best moment to abuse Port.
If your opponent have only 1 source of Red mana, and is playing a deck that run Firespout, tap his land. You don't want to give him the opportunity to cast it.
If your opponent uses E.Plague, you may want to use Port when have have 2 lands. If he uses Humility, keeping him off his 3rd mana isn't as important as keeping him out of his 4th.

I remembered a situation, where I was playing against Dredge. I had just upped my Vial to 5, with SGC in my hand, and 4 mana into play. He was at 6, and I was at a quite comfortable life total. I had 1 Port, and he had 2 lands. Game 2. I wanted to EOT put SGC into play with Vial, sac some goblins, and finish him in my turn. The deal is that I think he could have Firestorm in his hand. So, instead of Porting him at upkeep, I let him use his mana. In his turn, with 1 of his lands, he cast a Careful study, leaving 1 for the Firestorm. But, tricky, he misplayed, because I hadn't used Port yet, activating it in his 2nd mainfase. In response, he cast Firestorm, killing some goblins, and dealing some dmg to me. Eot I got to tap Vial, cheat SGC into play, and win on my turn.
Well, don't know if there's anything to learn here, just wanted to share.
Port is quite difficult to master, but certainly worth it.

[Vandalize]

Hey there, goblin players...

Just went to a local tournament and it made me think about my sideboard... I lost twice to White Stax variants (humility/moat and non-humility/moat), Enchantress, B/W Control (it's a weird deck that uses Damnation/Wrath of God + Humility/Moat [I think he doesn't have a good opinion towards creatures])...

I was using GoboLord's sideboard and I saw that two cards were really underused, so I decided to drop one of each to add 2 Anarchy.

New sideboard:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Anarchy
1 Boartusk Liege
1 TukTuk Scrapper

Dispite the massive card disadvantage from Stax decks, when they manage to put on their Lock-Pieces, there isn't much you can do. And anarchy seems to be the best answer to those Prison decks.

Vexing Shusher was dropped because I don't see counterspells as a big threat against goblins.

Dropped 1 Chalice of the Void also, because I don't see much Storm decks here... and I felt like it was the weakest spot left in sideboard (since Leyline of the Void and Pyrokinesis can't be played as a three of imo).

[jin]

New sideboard:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Anarchy
1 Boartusk Liege
1 TukTuk Scrapper


Hey. I don't know what's on your main board. Do you splash black? Honestly, yard hate is not as important as Chalice. If you play less than 4, then it's not worth being on the sideboard unless you have other combo hate. Being a Goblin player means that you'll go straight from vial --> lackey --> matron --> ringleader which means you won't get much of a chance to draw it. At most you have is maybe 7 cards? If you only run three, that greatly decreases the chances of drawing it. I would cut it entirely if I were you. Either that or cut Leyline of the void and play other types of hate.

I feel that in your board, maybe Boartusk Liege is the weakest slot. In testing, I find Liege to be uber weak. Any deck that runs plague runs Swords to Plowshare/Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse/etc, so I don't see Liege as an out to Plague. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Chalice has more important applications outside of storm combo. I once used it to completely lock out Dreadstill. If anything is the flex slot, it is the Liege or the Leylines and not the Chalice.

[jrw1985]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

//Lands [22]
14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
4: Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader
2: Siege-Gang Commander

//Flex Slots [7+5]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Round 2: GW Survival
Game 1: I know what he is playing. He goes first. So I mull into a hand that can effectively deal with his manasources (Hierarch and non-basiclands). My decision turns out to be good, but he seems to know what my plan is. In the course of first 4 turns he has 3 Noble Hierarchs, while I had only 1 Bolt and 1 Incinerator for them. He fetches on basiclands only, so my double Wasteland are plain useless. Still this game last pretty long. When he goes for the Iona + Retainer “combo” I have Aether Vial @ 3 and my army is somewhat able to frighten his Iona, it can’t launch for an attack, neither can I. With Survival of the Fittest he gets to fetch some Tarmogoyfs and wins a few turns later.

IN: 4 Pyrokinesis
OUT: Goblin Chieftain, 3 Lightning Bolt

Game 2: I follow my philosophy from G1 and mull down to 5 to find mnanadenial and removal. He scoops on turn 5 because Pyrokinesis ate his Noble Hierarch and Quasali Pridemage, Wasteland destroyed Horizon Canopy, Rishadan Port tapped his lonely basic forest and Sharpshooter lay waiting for more Hierarchs.

Game 3: Again I have to take mulligan into manadenial + removal, nevertheless I have T1 Vial. Double port shuts his mana off after Gempalm and Pyrokinesis cleared the board. I find myself with only Warchief in play, Vial @ 3, Matron and Sharpshooter in hand, and 2 Ports/2 Mountains in play, while my opponent has 3 Forests and 1 Plains.
Meanwhile some spectators came to watch us playing. One of them (sitting next to me) was commenting on my moves: “good”, “nice”, “what else can we expect from a goblin player with YOUR experience?” and the like. Well…I’ll come back to this later. Let’s return to the game.
I tapped Vial for Matron @ Ringleader. Then I made a poor move: I played Ringleader to hopefully find Piledriver and attack for 12. Instead I found nothing. In my EOT he discards Iona and goes for Retainer. I’m unable to use my Ports in his upkeep, so I allow him to have access of W to cast Retainer. His combo finishes me off. I lost just because I was too greedy…because I didn’t play that Sharphooter on my hand and keep Port + X to seal away his W mana.
1-2

Constructive criticism is allowed, right? Where's the dedicated Survival hate? I want to see something other than burn. Pithing needle would be awesome in your SB. It could have shut down Survival OR Loyal Retainers. Also, why are you running Leyline of the Void as your GY hate? Since you're mono-red you can't really use it against anything other than Dredge, and I know I'd want the most playable GY available in a format overrun with Vengevines.



Round 5 – Enchantress
Game 1: I know what he’s playing, so I mull down to 5 to keep a rather fast hand. I’m able to take him down to 11 before he locks me off.
Before I scoop I ask him for how long he’s been playing his deck (cause he’s rather young: ~15). He tells me that this is his 2nd tourney ever. I expect him to be a bad player.

IN: 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Vexing Shusher
OUT: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 2 Aether Vial.

Game 2: I take mulligan to 5 to have an aggressive start. All I find is Wasteland, Vial, Chalice, 2 MWM. I go first with Vial and find a land on turn 2 to cast Chalice @1. On turn 3 he has Ghostly Prison. Still I’m able to beat him down to 5 before he locks me off. After the game he tells me that he has a lot of practice with his deck; with this MU in particular; cause he has been introduced to Enchantress by “goldfishing” Goblins a hundred time.
0-2

I don't like Chalice here. It can't stop a T1 Elephant Grass anyway, and the rest of Enchantress has a pretty high curve. Enchantress is hampered by cards like Thorn of Amethyst or Pyrostatic Pillar. From reading your report it seems that maybe Anarchy would be appropriate for your meta. If you're willing to splash Green Reverent Silence and a host of enchantment hate becomes available. If you're happy with your mono-red build this MU should always give you trouble. Obviously Red by definition doesn't have answers to enchantments. Back in spring I played a R/b/g build that played K Grip and Reverent Silence out of the SB. It worked incredibly well, as fetches allowed me to hide my Taigas until G2 or G3 when I would plop one down, see the look of surprise on my opponent's face, then blast their enchantments away. If you want to stay Mono-Red perhaps you could SB Thorn of Amethyst to crank up your mana-denial control game.



Round 6 – W Moat Staxx (yeah, the one with 4 Moat and 4 Humility)
Game 1: I know what he is playing, however, he goes first and those facts don’t influence my mulligan decisions. I mull down to 5. He starts with Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, Trinisphere. On turn 2 He plays Humilty, I scoop.
IN: 1 Vexing Shusher
OUT: 1 Gempalm Incinerator

Game 2: I mull down to 5 and keep a hand with only Skirk Prospector, but lots of Wastelands/Ports. I am able to effectively shut his mana off while my lonely Skrikprospector beats him down to 11. With 6 lands and 2 Ports I play Goblin Chieftain (with 2 Lands and 1 R from Skirk Prospector) to be able to tap 2 lands in his upkeep. This was a poor move cause I could just have tapped 3 lands, attack for 4 and use Skirk Prospector’s mana for Port activation in his upkeep. I tap 2 lands (Ancient Tomb, Plains), although he has 2 Plains. He plays Mox Diamond and Ancient tomb from hand and casts Moat. I regret not having tapped those 2 Plains of his. On my turn I play SGC. On his turn he play Armageddon. I regret having sacrificed my Prospector (cause he is on 5 meanwhile, because of his Ancient Tomb). I don’t find lands anymore to make use of SGC’s tokens.
0-2


It looks like enchantment/white hate would once again be beneficial. It also seems like you missed an opportunity to side in Tuktuk Scrapper. Again, Thorn would be decent too.

If I may critique your SB for a moment...

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Since you are mono-red Leyline seems extremely suspect. You can't play it unless you Mull to it, which is only effective against Dredge. You couldn't side it in for your Survival match because it isn't worth mulling to Leyline in that game. If you played Tormod Crypt or whatever instead you could side it in and draw into it and have a useful anti-graveyard play to shut down the Iona. Running 4 Leylines in a mono-red deck says to me "I'm terrified of the Dredge matchup, and I'm willing to sacrifice versatility for security". There isn't anything wrong with wanting to auto-win against Dredge G2/3, but you give up a lot of playability. Most importantly, Leyline is 25% of your SB. Is Dredge anywhere near 25% of your meta to warrant such narrow hate?

Chalice is great, but I would suggest diversifying your combo hate with Pithing Needle. Needle is great against everything. Survival, Belcher, ThopterSwords, Grindstone, Necrotic Ooze. It does SO damned much against permanent based combo that it really deserves to see play in your SB.

Pyrokinesis is great, but I have to wonder how necessary it is for your SB, given that you're already playing 3 Lightning Bolt MD. It seems that cutting a few of these could make room for anti-non-creature cards, like artifact hate, Anarchy, or maybe even a Red Elemental Blast or two. Basically your Pyrokinesises (sp?) are redundant, and you're losing flexibilty by having 4 SB slots tied up in burn.

Shusher- I totally dig this guy. He comes in super handy, and can be incredible against control decks. Opponents tend to forget what he does once he's in play, which leads to beautifully awkward moments of you two-for-zeroing their Force of Will.

Boartusk - Eh. I tried it. It's hard to play (RRR1) and when you're playing against E. Plague there's usually plenty of spot removal to take him out. Plus, it pisses me off that this guy doesn't give your goblins haste or anything, just the pump. Chieftain seems better.

Tuktuk- Good against Jitte. Tinkerer is better against SDT. I've been going back and forth, but Tinkerer's reuseability is extremely appealing. The name of the game is card advantage, right?

So there's my two cents.

[GoboLord]

Actually I didn't want to discuss my list, but my playing mistakes; but seen that way we can talk about it as well. Here we go.


Constructive criticism is allowed, right? Where's the dedicated Survival hate? I want to see something other than burn. Pithing needle would be awesome in your SB. It could have shut down Survival OR Loyal Retainers. Also, why are you running Leyline of the Void as your GY hate? Since you're mono-red you can't really use it against anything other than Dredge, and I know I'd want the most playable GY available in a format overrun with Vengevines.
Criticism is appreciated!
Survival hate: As I said before, I don't like Survival hate in form of permanents. I want to aim at their manabase (that's what the removal is for). Therefore: no GY hate, no Pithing Needle because they run Qasali Pridemage/Trygon Predator/K Grip

Leylines: I'll come to that later, cause you mentioned it twice.



I don't like Chalice here. It can't stop a T1 Elephant Grass anyway, and the rest of Enchantress has a pretty high curve. Enchantress is hampered by cards like Thorn of Amethyst or Pyrostatic Pillar. From reading your report it seems that maybe Anarchy would be appropriate for your meta. If you're willing to splash Green Reverent Silence and a host of enchantment hate becomes available. If you're happy with your mono-red build this MU should always give you trouble. Obviously Red by definition doesn't have answers to enchantments. Back in spring I played a R/b/g build that played K Grip and Reverent Silence out of the SB. It worked incredibly well, as fetches allowed me to hide my Taigas until G2 or G3 when I would plop one down, see the look of surprise on my opponent's face, then blast their enchantments away. If you want to stay Mono-Red perhaps you could SB Thorn of Amethyst to crank up your mana-denial control game.
Chalice: Chalice is always better than removal in this MU. I know it isn't good though, but I just can't board anything other than Chalice. CHalice @ 1 shuts down not only E.Grass, but those Utopia Sprawls and Wild Growths too. That makes it hard for them to pay their Grass out while playing those 3cc spells.

Rest: I don't want to prepare for enchantress, cause its actually rather rare in my meta.



It looks like enchantment/white hate would once again be beneficial. It also seems like you missed an opportunity to side in Tuktuk Scrapper. Again, Thorn would be decent too.
Dutch Staxx doesnt run artifacts other than Mox Diamond, Chalice and Trinisphere.
Plus, seriously....Thorn of Amethyst against Staxx? No way. I can't imagine that they'd possibly run into trouble with their mana.


If I may critique your SB for a moment...

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Since you are mono-red Leyline seems extremely suspect. You can't play it unless you Mull to it, which is only effective against Dredge. You couldn't side it in for your Survival match because it isn't worth mulling to Leyline in that game. If you played Tormod Crypt or whatever instead you could side it in and draw into it and have a useful anti-graveyard play to shut down the Iona. Running 4 Leylines in a mono-red deck says to me "I'm terrified of the Dredge matchup, and I'm willing to sacrifice versatility for security". There isn't anything wrong with wanting to auto-win against Dredge G2/3, but you give up a lot of playability. Most importantly, Leyline is 25% of your SB. Is Dredge anywhere near 25% of your meta to warrant such narrow hate?

Leyline is against Lands, Aggro Loam, Dredge and New Horizons (and Threshold maybe).
In all of those MUs it's senseless to hardcast Leyline at any time cause they can do pretty much with what they have in their GY by then. I never hardcasted Leyline. Not in Rb and not in R. Therefore being monocolored is not an argument against Leyline.
Tormod's Crypt would be my 2nd choice. Oftentimes my opponents were able to play around it, that's why I dropped it. One can't play around Leyline without removing it.
Actually I don't even aggresively take muuligan at Leylines. It's more that they raise my chances on good opening hands. Plus they are virtually an auto-win against Lands and Dredge.


Chalice is great, but I would suggest diversifying your combo hate with Pithing Needle. Needle is great against everything. Survival, Belcher, ThopterSwords, Grindstone, Necrotic Ooze. It does SO damned much against permanent based combo that it really deserves to see play in your SB.
As stated before: I don't like Needle. It can do many things, but it's oftentimes not worth boarding it. I like cards for my SB that are gamebreaking and Needle absolutely isn't.


Pyrokinesis is great, but I have to wonder how necessary it is for your SB, given that you're already playing 3 Lightning Bolt MD. It seems that cutting a few of these could make room for anti-non-creature cards, like artifact hate, Anarchy, or maybe even a Red Elemental Blast or two. Basically your Pyrokinesises (sp?) are redundant, and you're losing flexibilty by having 4 SB slots tied up in burn.
IMO Pyrokinesis is the best card we have available to fight Vengevival variants (again: stated before, see above).


Shusher- I totally dig this guy. He comes in super handy, and can be incredible against control decks. Opponents tend to forget what he does once he's in play, which leads to beautifully awkward moments of you two-for-zeroing their Force of Will.
Actually the idea was to make sure that I can cast my L.Bolts/Lackeys/AEther Vials when Chalice is set @ 1. But...yeah it's good against control.


Boartusk - Eh. I tried it. It's hard to play (RRR1) and when you're playing against E. Plague there's usually plenty of spot removal to take him out. Plus, it pisses me off that this guy doesn't give your goblins haste or anything, just the pump. Chieftain seems better.
I guess we had this discussion before =/ I don't agree with you here.


Tuktuk- Good against Jitte. Tinkerer is better against SDT. I've been going back and forth, but Tinkerer's reuseability is extremely appealing. The name of the game is card advantage, right?
I wouldn't even board artifact hate (not even Tinkerer) to aim for SDT. This is just a waste of time. Almost every MU in which we could face SDT requires us to be very fast and that's not what tinkerer does.

[Vandalize]

Boartusk - Eh. I tried it. It's hard to play (RRR1) and when you're playing against E. Plague there's usually plenty of spot removal to take him out. Plus, it pisses me off that this guy doesn't give your goblins haste or anything, just the pump. Chieftain seems better.

Yeah, Boartusk Liege has proven to be the weakest slot. All those E.Plague decks have responses to him.

My list is the mono-red everyone is playing (skirk-shooter, 3 mwm, etc...)

My new sb is now looking like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy
1 Vexing Shusher
1 TukTuk Scrapper

I still think that Pyrokinesis should be a four of instead of chalice, but i'll pratice it to make sure.

[jin]

Yeah, Boartusk Liege has proven to be the weakest slot. All those E.Plague decks have responses to him.

My list is the mono-red everyone is playing (skirk-shooter, 3 mwm, etc...)

My new sb is now looking like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy
1 Vexing Shusher
1 TukTuk Scrapper

I still think that Pyrokinesis should be a four of instead of chalice, but i'll pratice it to make sure.

Pyrokinesis is fine as a 3-of since they suppliment your maindeck removal. If you play MWM, there really isn't much to fear from zoo, so I don't know why you would need more than three.

If your list is mono colour, I would suggest you not play Leyline of the Void. Seeing it in your Ringleader is just awkward (not because it's not a goblin, but because it's not red). Dredge's main hate cards are against Leyline of the Void because it is strong in the mirror. Therefore playing Leyline only makes you weaker against them (I guess you'll surprise them game 2. I hope you won game 1 then). I don't quite understand Vexing Shusher either. In what situations would you need him? Goblins do fine against counterspells.

If I were to ever play anything against countermagic, it would be Warren Instigator over Vexing Shusher. Instigator just makes dirty plays. LOL.

If you DO decide to open two more slots, I would deligate them to Blood Moon because they are sick when randomly boarded in in some match ups.

[Vandalize]

I've tested Blood Moon, and it has been useful against some matches, not all of them. Dunno if they worth to be on sideboard.

I don't personally like Warren Instigator (he's a beast, tho), because to play them, you should drop some gray lands (mainly Rishadan Ports). Mana denial is somewhat better than explosiveness in my opinion.

Vexing Shusher is mainly to fight CounterTop if you get a really bad start, or playing over your chalice. It's a weak slot too.

Leyline of the Void is the best GY hate, but it has it's weakness (topdecking/ringleader). I like it, because you can just drop it and stop that T1 combo or preparation (e.g.: swamp -> dark ritual -> entomb -> exhume), or even a dredge, perhaps. The problem with the artifact based GY hate is that every deck that relies heavily on GY (Dredge, Reanimator, Loam) use Nature's Claim. Leyline can at least delay them a little bit.

Maybe I'll drop the Shusher to add a Goblin Tinkerer (to side in with TukTuk), since I've been in a little trouble against artifacts lately.

For my meta, I think the sb should be like:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
2x Anarchy
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Tinkerer

Maybe a Goblin Pyromancer...

[GoboLord]

Seriously, did you even read my last post?? It answers every question you have.


Pyrokinesis is fine as a 3-of since they suppliment your maindeck removal. If you play MWM, there really isn't much to fear from zoo, so I don't know why you would need more than three.

IMO Pyrokinesis is the best card we have available to fight Vengevival variants (again: stated before, see above).



If your list is mono colour, I would suggest you not play Leyline of the Void. Seeing it in your Ringleader is just awkward *(not because it's not a goblin, but because it's not red). Dredge's main hate cards are against Leyline of the Void because it is strong in the mirror. Therefore playing Leyline only makes you weaker against them (I guess you'll surprise them game 2. I hope you won game 1 then).

Leyline is against Lands, Aggro Loam, Dredge and New Horizons (and Threshold maybe).
In all of those MUs it's senseless to hardcast Leyline at any time cause they can do pretty much with what they have in their GY by then. I never hardcasted Leyline. Not in Rb and not in R. Therefore being monocolored is not an argument against Leyline.
Tormod's Crypt would be my 2nd choice. Oftentimes my opponents were able to play around it, that's why I dropped it. One can't play around Leyline without removing it.
Actually I don't even aggresively take muuligan at Leylines. It's more that they raise my chances on good opening hands. Plus they are virtually an auto-win against Lands and Dredge.
Could you please explain what you mean by that*?
And how is any other GY hate different from Leyline when you reveal it in you Ringleader?


I don't quite understand Vexing Shusher either. In what situations would you need him? Goblins do fine against counterspells.

If I were to ever play anything against countermagic, it would be Warren Instigator over Vexing Shusher. Instigator just makes dirty plays. LOL.

Actually the idea was to make sure that I can cast my L.Bolts/Lackeys/AEther Vials when Chalice is set @ 1. But...yeah it's good against control.

[ScatmanX]

What do you guys think about Magus of the Moon in today's meta?
I was thinking about bringing it in against Ub Merfolk (they don't have removal, and will not be able to cast Plague with it in play), BGw Survival/GWsurvival (crappy manabase gets crappier), and Rock (again, it will make it hard for them to cast Plague/Deed, and they have a terible manabase), and off coures, against the usuals: Lands, Landstill, Dark Depths...
Is it worth it?
Would it be good against WStax?

[Vandalize]

What do you guys think about Magus of the Moon in today's meta?
I was thinking about bringing it in against Ub Merfolk (they don't have removal, and will not be able to cast Plague with it in play), BGw Survival/GWsurvival (crappy manabase gets crappier), and Rock (again, it will make it hard for them to cast Plague/Deed, and they have a terible manabase), and off coures, against the usuals: Lands, Landstill, Dark Depths...
Is it worth it?
Would it be good against WStax?

Why Magus of the Moon? It's a 2/2 non-goblin creature (which can be easily removed). Blood Moon is an enchantment for the same effect and manacost, and pretty much harder to be removed... Moreover, they usually bring creature hate against goblins in game 2 and 3 (omg, i'm a genius).

In my opinion, if you want some moon effect, just play some Blood Moons.

[ScatmanX]

Why Magus of the Moon? It's a 2/2 non-goblin creature (which can be easily removed). Blood Moon is an enchantment for the same effect and manacost, and pretty much harder to be removed... Moreover, they usually bring creature hate against goblins in game 2 and 3 (omg, i'm a genius).

In my opinion, if you want some moon effect, just play some Blood Moons.
No, you are not.
Have you read the decks I want to bring it in against? What kind of removal are you talking about?
I don't know if you notice, but Blood Moon isn't a goblin too, so you can't really use that as an argument.

Magus of the Moon is better in the MU's I want it, because
1- It can be Vialed in. So, it wont get countered, and it hits plays immediately. When you activate Vial, and they say ok, you put Magus into play. Then, the Merfolk player, or Landstill, or whatever, wont be able to float the mana from its duals to cast their removal spells.
2- It is a 2/2. Guess what it does. Swings.
Edit: Also, next time you could actually try to answer ANY question that have been asked.

[dethangel666]

hey guys how many ports should should you run 3 or 4?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

hey guys how many ports should should you run 3 or 4?

The current trend seems to be:

Mono Red - 3

R/B or R/G - 4

R/B/G - 2 to 4

[jin]

I've tested Blood Moon, and it has been useful against some matches, not all of them. Dunno if they worth to be on sideboard.

I don't personally like Warren Instigator (he's a beast, tho), because to play them, you should drop some gray lands (mainly Rishadan Ports). Mana denial is somewhat better than explosiveness in my opinion.

Vexing Shusher is mainly to fight CounterTop if you get a really bad start, or playing over your chalice. It's a weak slot too.

Leyline of the Void is the best GY hate, but it has it's weakness (topdecking/ringleader). I like it, because you can just drop it and stop that T1 combo or preparation (e.g.: swamp -> dark ritual -> entomb -> exhume), or even a dredge, perhaps. The problem with the artifact based GY hate is that every deck that relies heavily on GY (Dredge, Reanimator, Loam) use Nature's Claim. Leyline can at least delay them a little bit.

Maybe I'll drop the Shusher to add a Goblin Tinkerer (to side in with TukTuk), since I've been in a little trouble against artifacts lately.

For my meta, I think the sb should be like:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
2x Anarchy
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Tinkerer

Maybe a Goblin Pyromancer...

Hey, your sideboard is looking a lot better. But regarding Blood Moon, what I meant was side it in on occasion. Not all of the time against one deck but randomly against decks that might not expect it. It ends games. If you can play one card that says, "target player scoops them up," Blood Moon will be that card.

I'm not saying play four, three or two Warren Instigators, I'm saying play one. Play it in the Vexing Shusher slot. It'll be a lot better because he's Goblin Lackey number 5 and 6 and he poses as the same threat as Vexing Shusher except he's faster and a problem right away as oppposed to Vexing Shusher who's a problem, eventually.

Black Leyline is pretty good, but it is lazy. This is why Tomoharu Saito didn't play any Leyline of the Void in his black fish deck at GP.. whatever it was Columbus? Yeah, GP Columbus. He opted to play Tormod's Crypt because Crypt is proactive and takes skills. Not only this, but anti hate is less effective because it can just sit in your hand.

Tinker is alright. He's fairly slow though. I wouldn't rely on him to get rid of equpiment, but if there are other things that bother you, he's quite helpful. Pyromancer is the bomb. I use him in any board that I can't fill (although that's rare). I side him in randomly against Zoo and that gets pretty funny when suddenly everything is as scary as Piledriver.


Seriously, did you even read my last post?? It answers every question you have.


No, I didn't. You were talking to someone else and I didn't want to butt in. By the way, these aren't questions. They are statements. I am stating that Leyline of the Void is bad, I am stating that Instigator is better than Shusher and I am stating that Pyrokinesis as a 3-of is enough against Zoo.

Pyrokinsis is fine if you don't board out your regular removal. You board out Lightning Bolt like that other guy said. If you didn't you wouldn't need 4. One Pyrokinesis will take out survival's creature-based mana source. If any others come up, your regular removal can handle it. You can play 4 if you want to draw it that badly. I personally refuse to dilute my deck of Goblins more than I already have to.

Vexing Shusher is not a great idea against Counterbalance decks. For starters, we don't really need hate against Counterbalance, but if we did bring in something, we should bring in more Goblin Lackeys in the form for Warren Instigator instead of Vexing Shusher which only makes our spells more expensive. Either way though, Shusher and Instigator are going to meet a Swords to Plowshare, so it doesn't matter. Why would I need to play through my own Chalice? Instigator brings them in for me and it suppliments my Lackey.

Leyline of the Void is horrible in mono-red goblins. You said it yourself. It is useless outside of Turn 1. Artifact 'yard hate is not. Leyline has to be on the table to be effective. Artifact based graveyard hate doesn't and therefore isn't really effected by bounce or Nature's Claim. You just drop it and pop it. Artifact based graveyard hate is about skill. It's about timing. Leyline of the Void is about laziness



Could you please explain what you mean by that*?
And how is any other GY hate different from Leyline when you reveal it in you Ringleader?

No ways to hardcast your Leyline? Some people would call that trivial....


hey guys how many ports should should you run 3 or 4?

Either is fine. It depends on list though. Most lists go down to 3 now since there are more R mana symbols because of Goblin Chieftain. I myself love Rishadan Port but am also forced to go to 3 replacing the fourth port with a Mountain. Three pretty much guarentees one every game where as four, you might get 2 every game.


Magus of the Moon is better in the MU's I want it, because
1- It can be Vialed in. So, it wont get countered, and it hits plays immediately. When you activate Vial, and they say ok, you put Magus into play. Then, the Merfolk player, or Landstill, or whatever, wont be able to float the mana from its duals to cast their removal spells.
2- It is a 2/2. Guess what it does. Swings.
Edit: Also, next time you could actually try to answer ANY question that have been asked.

All fair points. I've actually been meaning to try this but I only have 1x right now, so I haven't bothered. It would seem to have the same effect as Blood Moon. I would actually play it over Blood Moon for the same reasons. It comes in through Vial so they can't float mana and it swings which I like.

I'm not too sure about its effectiveness against BGw though since those decks often pack Hierachs and Birds as extra ways to produce mana. Alternatively removing them is an argument.

I think it would be viable much to the same effect as Blood Moon. Although would it be better than other cards like Pyrokinesis vs their Creature Based Mana sources or Vexing Shusher/Instigator vs their Counterspells, I'm not too sure... As an out to Plague, it is very strong against UB Fish, but the rest, highly doubt it, since they'll fetch basic swamp to guarentee it's entry into play

[ScatmanX]

All fair points. I've actually been meaning to try this but I only have 1x right now, so I haven't bothered. It would seem to have the same effect as Blood Moon. I would actually play it over Blood Moon for the same reasons. It comes in through Vial so they can't float mana and it swings which I like.

I'm not too sure about its effectiveness against BGw though since those decks often pack Hierachs and Birds as extra ways to produce mana. Alternatively removing them is an argument.

I think it would be viable much to the same effect as Blood Moon. Although would it be better than other cards like Pyrokinesis vs their Creature Based Mana sources or Vexing Shusher/Instigator vs their Counterspells, I'm not too sure... As an out to Plague, it is very strong against UB Fish, but the rest, highly doubt it, since they'll fetch basic swamp to guarentee it's entry into play
- Against Bgw Survival, 'd bring in Pyroknesis AND Magus of the Moon. That way I can handle all their mana sources, and don't have to worry about bringing in Needle or Nature's Claim.

-Right about Rock, but I'd only bring them in if their list run only nonbasics, like Junk. Than it wold be gamebreaking.

[GoboLord]

Black Leyline is pretty good, but it is lazy. This is why Tomoharu Saito didn't play any Leyline of the Void in his black fish deck at GP.. whatever it was Columbus? Yeah, GP Columbus. He opted to play Tormod's Crypt because Crypt is proactive and takes skills.

Saito didnt play it because Merfolk is totally different from Goblins and has totally different interaction with the decks it uses hate against.
You need much more skill to play with Leyline cause oftentimes you have to win without it. I even use my Ringeleaders to stack them on bottom of Library/make sure that I dont draw them later on.



Not only this, but anti hate is less effective because it can just sit in your hand.
Jesus....best way to face anti-graveyard hate: Keep Crypt in you hand and till they go off :rolleyes:



No, I didn't. You were talking to someone else and I didn't want to butt in. By the way, these aren't questions. They are statements. I am stating that Leyline of the Void is bad, I am stating that Instigator is better than Shusher and I am stating that Pyrokinesis as a 3-of is enough against Zoo.

Pyrokinsis is fine if you don't board out your regular removal. You board out Lightning Bolt like that other guy said. If you didn't you wouldn't need 4. One Pyrokinesis will take out survival's creature-based mana source. If any others come up, your regular removal can handle it. You can play 4 if you want to draw it that badly. I personally refuse to dilute my deck of Goblins more than I already have to.

Ignorance Kitteh is ignoring your circle argumentation.



Vexing Shusher is not a great idea against Counterbalance decks. For starters, we don't really need hate against Counterbalance, but if we did bring in something, we should bring in more Goblin Lackeys in the form for Warren Instigator instead of Vexing Shusher which only makes our spells more expensive. Either way though, Shusher and Instigator are going to meet a Swords to Plowshare, so it doesn't matter. Why would I need to play through my own Chalice? Instigator brings them in for me and it suppliments my Lackey.
Instigator doesn't bring in Nature's claim, Lightning Bolts and Aether Vial.
+ It doesnt make our precious Kinesis counter-proof.



Leyline of the Void is horrible in mono-red goblins. You said it yourself. It is useless outside of Turn 1. Artifact 'yard hate is not. Leyline has to be on the table to be effective. Artifact based graveyard hate doesn't and therefore isn't really effected by bounce or Nature's Claim. You just drop it and pop it. Artifact based graveyard hate is about skill. It's about timing. Leyline of the Void is about laziness

Please quote me when I said that Leyline is bad in Mono R.



No ways to hardcast your Leyline? Some people would call that trivial....
Yeah... and some people would call "hardcasting creatures" trivial. I personally favor not to pay any mana for my GY hate and my creatures (Lackey and Vial save the day >.>).

[jin]

- Against Bgw Survival, 'd bring in Pyroknesis AND Magus of the Moon. That way I can handle all their mana sources, and don't have to worry about bringing in Needle or Nature's Claim.

-Right about Rock, but I'd only bring them in if their list run only nonbasics, like Junk. Than it wold be gamebreaking.

I don't consider needle or nature's claim viable against vengevine survival, but yes pyrokinesis would come in. I guess it'll work out for you. Yes, moon effects break games that way.. LOL.

Either way, I agree that Magus does deserve some testing. I really wish they made him a Goblin.. LOL...I'm greedy.


Saito didnt play it because Merfolk is totally different from Goblins and has totally different interaction with the decks it uses hate against.
You need much more skill to play with Leyline cause oftentimes you have to win without it. I even use my Ringeleaders to stack them on bottom of Library/make sure that I dont draw them later on.


It takes more skill to mull into Leyline of the Void, riiight. Please elaborate besides your ability to move them from the top of your library with Ringleader (by chance) to the bottom of the library. Sorry I have to add, do you stop using Matrons to keep this strategy up? Win without.. your sideboard cards,.. so uhh,.. why sideboard?



Jesus....best way to face anti-graveyard hate: Keep Crypt in you hand and till they go off :rolleyes:

I think this is very viable to keep your graveyard hate away from Nature's Claim



Ignorance Kitteh is ignoring your circle argumentation.

LOL, sorry I forgot to put <SARCASM></SARCASM> for people that don't understand the idea. Let me put it this way. I'm mocking the idea that people feel they need four in the deck because they take out their own removal to put it in.



Instigator doesn't bring in Nature's claim, Lightning Bolts and Aether Vial.
+ It doesnt make our precious Kinesis counter-proof.


This is mono-red, we don't play nature's claim. I play gempalms and stingers. I don't play lightning bolts. I wouldn't pay 2 for lightning bolt anyway. Are you serious? Do you really play goblins? Why would my Instigator need to bring in Vial? Would your Lackey need to bring in Vial?



Please quote me when I said that Leyline is bad in Mono R.


I'm sorry? Did you forget what you said? Do you think because you can do quotes that your arguments become more influential? I am aware that you said casting Leylines in Rb is useless. Again, a good reason not to play Leyline. You can cast the artifact hate whenever you want and it is still effective. Leyline can neither be casted midgame and even it it could, it is now no longer effective. If you say it takes skill to play Leyline because you have to win without it, then why not just not play it? <SARCASM> That way you can play 4 Vexing Shushers and 1 Nature's Claim. </SARCASM>



Yeah... and some people would call "hardcasting creatures" trivial. I personally favor not to pay any mana for my GY hate and my creatures (Lackey and Vial save the day >.>).

Yes, Tormod's Crypt does not cost mana. Thanks for backing me up on this.

Your sideboard choice is your own prerogative, but don't try to discredit me by quoting me and then adding your little subtexts as a form of mockery. Your efforts were in vain as you have neither discouraged me from posting nor proven yourself to be correct. You provided no valid arguments outside of the examples that you provided for supporting Vexing Shusher, albiet a weak argument.

Having played goblins for awhile, I'm sure you will know that Goblins is neither afraid of counterspells nor need to worry about them, so why waste time with these silly tricks? The counterspell people know that the things to be countered are Lackey/AEther Vial. THey will not save countermagic for your precious Pyrokinesis. You being a goblin player while holding a Vexing Shusher and an AEther Vial in your hand will NOT wait until the third turn to drop your AEther Vial, so why are we even having this conversation?

I don't understand what you mean by hardcasting creatures as Trivial. A major of the decks in Legacy use Vial and Vengevines, but another majority pays mana, so.. I don't see your argument here. I guess show and tell is an argument here but I don't see how that relates to Leyline of the Void sitting in your hand having only one out (mulling into it) VS an Emrakul sitting in your hand that has at least 4x show and tells and 4 other outs.

I'm sorry, I just can't continue. None of your arguments make sense. It doesn't make sense why you would play 4x Pyrokinesis and then board out your Lightning Bolts when you can just play 3x Pyrokinesis and keep your Lightning Bolts. It doesn't make sense why you would play Leyline and expect to win without it. I can only see the argument for Shusher and I addressed that already.

You can continue with your quoting now, but next time please present some valid arguments instead of silly commentaries.

PS: I'm sorry if this post seemed unprofessional, it was a parody of his post.

[jrw1985]

Leyline of the Void - Still terrible against everything but Dredge. Crypt or Faerie Macabre are much much much better for the simple fact that you can still play them if you draw into them.

Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon - Not worth the SB slots for 2 reasons. 1. Slow slow slow slow slow. 2. When you board it in G2 your opponent already knows you're playing Wasteland, and they'll be fetching basics accordingly. Basically you're defeating yourself by siding in cards your opponent already is planning to play around. Not a good idea.

Vexing Shusher/Goblin Tinkerer - Neither are amazing by any means, but both have reusable abilities and are goblins. That makes them fetchable, cheatable, and Ringleaderable. So when you really need them, they'll be there. Also, I'm a fan of big, free spells, like Pulverize and Reverent Silence. Being able to drop one of these down and make it uncounterable can blow out matches, and Shusher has proven very useful in that regard.

When it comes to cards like utility goblins and graveyard hate it's important to remember that there is always an exchange between Power, Speed, and Flexibility. Yes, Leyline has the Power and Speed, but is severly lacking in flexibility. Tinkerer is slower than Shattering Spree, but is more Flexible because of its synergies within the deck. Ultimately, I try to side for flexibilty.

Here is the deck I plan on running this weekend-

4x AEther Vial

3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger
2x Warren Instigator

2x Warren Weirding

1x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
6x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Earwig Squad
3x Extirpate
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pulverize
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher

I'm trying to move away from sideboards that run multiples of everything because it's very important to not dilute a goblin deck too far. You can still win G2 and 3 by just being faster and more aggressive. My SB is designed with answers to the MUs that I think are least favorable, while trying to provide the most flexibility.

COMBO- Chalice, Earwig Squad, Mindbreak, Needle, Pyroblast, Tinkerer
SURVIVAL - Extirpate, Perish, Needle
AGGRO- Pyrokinesis, Perish
MERFOLK- Tinkerer, Shusher, Pyroblast, Pyrokinesis
AFFINITY (which has been showing up in my meta recently)- Pulverize, Tinkerer, Pyrokinesis
You get the idea.

[GoboLord]

@ jin:

Seriously, I don't want to discourage people from posting and I'm sorry if you felt offend by my post.
I just wanted to make my point clear on those topics. Plus, I found your argumentation not logical (e.g. Saito playing Tromod's Crypt over leyline is not a good argument against for or against either one of them).
I guess we can leave this discussion at this point because it seems that both of us can't make our points any clearer and still both of us don't seem to be satisfied with the answers they got.

Regarding this thread my intention is always to keep discussions running - even if they are somewhat "hot tempered".

[antonbystedt]

Guys, take a chill pill and for the love of the holy Goblins, respect eachother. Remember, it's just a game.

[ScatmanX]

Guys, take a chill pill and for the love of the holy Goblins, respect eachother. Remember, it's just a game.
You should say that to brazilian people about soccer, and see how they react... =p

[Vandalize]

Taking back the Graveyard Hate topic...

LotV has its problems with flexibility, but is still a free powerful anti-gy card, which can be dropped turn 0. This last factor, can stop some high speed graveyard combos (like reanimator decks). It's really a bomb against Dredge (which have a lot of speed also), since their mana-base is really poor (gold lands at low counting) and can't play arround threats easily. Faerie Macabre is still a good option, despite the horrible range. Crypt is another free option, but it seems to be a little not effective (I did a few tests with it and I didn't really like it). Relic of Progenitus deserves a retry, because a lot of people are using Skirk Prospector, which can easily get the floating mana to trigger the ability.

All GY hates are fine nowdays, but I still think Leyline of the Void is MVP.

And lol ScatmanX, I'm brazilian and I don't love soccer, it's not simple as that.

[bakofried]

When I was thinking about GoboLord's choices in sideboard, I weighed Leyline against Tormod's Crypt, Faerie Macabre, and Ravenous Trap. Graveyard hate is mostly ineffective against Survival, as finding an answer is simple, and in many cases they can ignore it. So the goal of graveyard hate would be to fight Loam decks, Reanimator if anyone still plays it, and Dredge. I'm only considering free hate pieces, as they don't disrupt your gameplan while simultaneously disrupting theirs.

Faerie Macabre is (moderately) resistant to discard, as you can activate it in response, but it's marginal against Dredge and only really shines when fighting Reanimator, which is hardly played anymore. It seems like it could be strong in nailing Life from the Loam, but past that Lands may continue to develop sans Loam and Aggro Loam can just beat with Goyf, Crusher, and utilize Bob for card advantage.

Ravenous Trap is very narrow; it's designed to fight Dredge, but it's fairly weak to discard, which Dredge employs as a countermeasure to hate. You may blow them out game 2, but game 3 expect it to be therapied away with nary a chance to activate it.

Tormod's Crypt can evade discard by being preemptively played; however, they will Grudge or Claim it away, forcing you to activate it at an inopportune time. Furthermore, it's one of the most common hate pieces used against Dredge, so if they think you're sandbagging it, expect a Cabal Therapy to come your way.

Leyline is decent against Loam and cripples Dredge until it's dealt with, and is completely resistant to discard.It shuts down Reanimator, though RB Goblins have many outs to whatever target they bring back, and even Mono-R can deal with an Iona. However, this deck is hardly played anymore, so it may not be worth consideration. Leyline cannot be recasted in the context of the this discussion, and requires you to mulligan to it, forcing you to throw away otherwise strong hands because you can't simply draw into your hate. However, I believe that would only be a problem in the Lands MU. Beating Dredge game 1 is (supposedly) a miracle, so why is it a bad thing to mull to hate? Do you believe the MU will swing wildly in your favor if you have the opportunity to draw into your hate? Even when considering your draw engine throws it to the bottom? It's because of this that I'm sticking with Leyline.

As a disclaimer, I will admit that this is entirely theorycraft, however, much of it is based on opinions voiced by respected posters and their personal experience.

[ScatmanX]

And lol ScatmanX, I'm brazilian and I don't love soccer, it's not simple as that.
Eu também. =]

[jin]

SIDEBOARD
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Earwig Squad
3x Extirpate
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pulverize
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher

I'm trying to move away from sideboards that run multiples of everything because it's very important to not dilute a goblin deck too far. You can still win G2 and 3 by just being faster and more aggressive. My SB is designed with answers to the MUs that I think are least favorable, while trying to provide the most flexibility.

COMBO- Chalice, Earwig Squad, Mindbreak, Needle, Pyroblast, Tinkerer
SURVIVAL - Extirpate, Perish, Needle
AGGRO- Pyrokinesis, Perish
MERFOLK- Tinkerer, Shusher, Pyroblast, Pyrokinesis
AFFINITY (which has been showing up in my meta recently)- Pulverize, Tinkerer, Pyrokinesis
You get the idea.

Interesting sideboard. I love sideboards with this kind of flexibility, but I was never able to do it with the Goblin Sideboard. Have you tested this out yet? You could also consider moving the extirpate to the combo match up as that gives you hand intell and also remove potential card advantage, not to mention they might just scoop. I wonder how'd you do against Zoo without War Marshals....

You bring up a good point about Blood Moon and that they'll play around it. Some decks can't really play around Blood Moon though - like Lands and Landstill. But like ScatmanX said, it could work against blackFish's Plagues. I guess that's a small percentage of the field.


@ jin:

Seriously, I don't want to discourage people from posting and I'm sorry if you felt offend by my post.
I just wanted to make my point clear on those topics. Plus, I found your argumentation not logical (e.g. Saito playing Tromod's Crypt over leyline is not a good argument against for or against either one of them).
I guess we can leave this discussion at this point because it seems that both of us can't make our points any clearer and still both of us don't seem to be satisfied with the answers they got.

Regarding this thread my intention is always to keep discussions running - even if they are somewhat "hot tempered".

Who wouldn't be with your rolling eyes and your condescending tone. Please don't focus on one aspect of my argument. My argument is that Tormod's Crypt is both playable mid game (either by strategy or by colour) and is less susceptible to anti-graveyard hate than Leyline of the Void. I admit that it is harder to play around Leyline but I believe it is a weaker choice because of the ability to predict your game plan early on (due to it being in play after mulligan) and for the opponent to remove it accordingly.


You should say that to brazilian people about soccer, and see how they react... =p

LOL...


...

Typical Ichorid board (since this seems to be the main concern) is 1-3 Chain of Vapors, 0-1 Wispmare, 0-4 Nature's Claim, 0-4 Rays of Revelation. Not all of them together of course. It is usually some combination of them ie:

1 Chain of Vapors
1 Wispmare
3 rays of revelation
...

or

3 chain of vapors
4 rays of revelation
...

or
3 nature's claim
1 wispmare
2 rays of revelation
...

Does anyone see my point? Leyline isn't exactly scary when they average 5 outs to your problem. The strategy is to careful study into them, so they'll draw it. I myself go with a miniture version of jrw1985 and Gabriel Nassif (my sideboarding idol) where I diversify my graveyard hate in some combination of Macrebe (I don't like her that much), Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus (I play mono coloured). This was to play around Cabal Therapy. I didn't like Ravenous Trap..

[bakofried]

But that's not necessarily a fair comparison - especially taking into account you see Ancient Grudge to fight your artifacts as well. And those Claims fight your artifact outs. Furthermore, you're not taking into account Cabal Therapies, which can hit your artifacts but not Leylines, and lists often run 3-4 of those, with the rest in the side if they're not running the full 4 main. So any amount of hate for your artifacts the opponent packs also needs to take into account Therapy. Ultimately, this is why I like GoboLord's permanent based solution, because it is stronger vs. the discard combo decks, dredge included, pack MD.

[jin]

But that's not necessarily a fair comparison - especially taking into account you see Ancient Grudge to fight your artifacts as well. And those Claims fight your artifact outs. Furthermore, you're not taking into account Cabal Therapies, which can hit your artifacts but not Leylines, and lists often run 3-4 of those, with the rest in the side if they're not running the full 4 main. So any amount of hate for your artifacts the opponent packs also needs to take into account Therapy. Ultimately, this is why I like GoboLord's permanent based solution, because it is stronger vs. the discard combo decks, dredge included, pack MD.

The strategic difference between Leyline and Artifact type hate I have already addressed. I know they pack Ancient Grudge, but Artifact type hate allows me to be LESS susceptible to it because I can keep it in my hand. You must realize this because you talk about discard. I am also aware that 4x Cabal Therapy is pretty much manditory for Dredge decks. That being said, Artifact type graveyard hate has the OPTION (and that is the key point here) in combatting both discard (by playing it) and combatting anti-hate cards (by keeping it in your hand). Leyline doesn't get this option. Leyline is just in play and the opponent has to deal with it or not. In this sense, flexibility (options) is more valuable than raw power - Leyline of the Void.

My major argument isn't the advocation of Tormod's Crypt over Leyline of the Void. My major concern is that Leyline takes up four slots and has the same weakness in all four slots. I would much rather have a more versatile card like Tormod's Crypt supplimented with other cards like Relic of Progenitus, Faerie Macabre, etc. to play around discard strategies as we well as pernament based solutions to which most decks can find a way out of.

Playing Leyline of the Void in a mono red deck to fight Ichorid is like playing goyf in a mono red deck to fight Zoo. Could you, yes; would you, no.

PS: Sorry if my previous argument felt one sided, I wanted to get to my point quickly.

[lotriderm]

But that's not necessarily a fair comparison - especially taking into account you see Ancient Grudge to fight your artifacts as well. And those Claims fight your artifact outs. Furthermore, you're not taking into account Cabal Therapies, which can hit your artifacts but not Leylines, and lists often run 3-4 of those, with the rest in the side if they're not running the full 4 main. So any amount of hate for your artifacts the opponent packs also needs to take into account Therapy. Ultimately, this is why I like GoboLord's permanent based solution, because it is stronger vs. the discard combo decks, dredge included, pack MD.

However, if it's game2 and you're sandbagging a tormod's crypt in your hand, I highly doubt the first thing they will Cabal Therapy for is Tormod's Crypt (given that you're on the play). I play both monoR goblins and LEDless Dredge, and I rarely lose to dredge with goblins and I'm only running 3 pieces of GY hate.

[ddt15]

I played my first time against Vengi Survival this weekend. I won the match 2-1, first game he gets turn 2 surv and runs me over. Second game, I side in Leylines, start with Leyline mountain Lackey. He hardcast 1 vengivine that game and that was it. He says 'well i didn't know you had leylines' and grabs his sideboard again. So i side out the leylines for 3 pyro's and a perish. I face a turn 2 survival again racing against my red army including a piledriver. Pyrokinesis cleans his blockers and piledriver does what hes supposed to do. His last turn he can still kill me if het topdecks a forest... which he doesn't. After hearing all the fuzz about the deck i gotta say that i'm a bit unimpressed; it seems that its beatable by sideboard cards and you are even able to race it just like most other decks.

[Tom T]

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom

[practical joke]

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom

Mountain lackey go!

seems to do the trick. Also: Mountain, lackey, crypt GO! makes them shiver since they can't go for ill-gotten gains that way and have to go odd ways or T1-T2 kills to win (which are most likely to fast for an chalice @ 1 as well)

You could go chalice @ 0 as wel in stead of crypt. but I found out that lackey starts are the most effective ones.

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom
* Wasteland
* Rishadan port
* early Lackeys (obviously)
* Chalice of the Void

Unless you face Pratical joke's Ub-"basiclands-only"-ANT-list you should stick to Manadenial, especially when you are up against TES

[ScatmanX]

Mountain lackey go!

seems to do the trick. Also: Mountain, lackey, crypt GO! makes them shiver since they can't go for ill-gotten gains that way and have to go odd ways or T1-T2 kills to win (which are most likely to fast for an chalice @ 1 as well)

You could go chalice @ 0 as wel in stead of crypt. but I found out that lackey starts are the most effective ones.
Do you really think grave-hate is that good against Combo?
What are the cards you fear the most when playing against us? (apart from Mountain and Lackey...)

[Vandalize]

I don't know if graveyard hate against ANT and TES is really effective, since they usually use Ill-Gotten Gains when their Ad Nauseam isn't able to grab a tutor or a wincon, or when they don't have a good storm counting. I don't know about the Goblins matchup, but ANT/TES don't abuse of Ill-Gotten Gains in many matchups (FoW/Daze/Stifle danger maybe). Still, it's a really fast card against Goblins.

Perhaps a chalice @1 or @0 and a lackey start is good enough.

[Justin]

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom

If you expect a lot of ANT and TES, you should not play goblins if you can help it. It would be better to play Merfolk, CounterTop, or something else that has a better matchup. If you do not have the option of playing a different deck (say you only own the cards for Goblins and not other decks), you are probably in for a tough day. As was said, you really want to focus on mana-denial cards such as Port and Wasteland.

In most matchups (and against an unknown), you will usually drop a Vial before a Lackey if you have them both in hand on turn one. Against combo, however, you should drop your Lackey first and try to win as fast as possible. It would help to practice goldfishing the deck so that you can improve your chances in a race.

There's also a few things that you can do with your deck. First, you should maindeck some Skirk Prospector. He will help you make your deck faster. Turn three goldfishes become more likely. You will cut some of the removal slots. Don't play Sharpshooter. As for your sideboard, you might even devote more than four slots to the combo matchup if you expect to see a lot of it and don't have the option of playing a different deck. Chalice of the Void is recommended, because you can hurt them by dropping it for zero. Hate that uses significant mana, such as Thorn of Amethyst is not so good because it keeps you from casting goblins and slows down your goldfish. I would recommend Chalice and Mindbreak Trap (or a combo of both) to help you fight combo.

[lorddotm]

Hey guys,

Next sunday there is a local tournament I'm participating. I expect a lot of AnT and TES in the metagame, but don't really know what strategy to pull off. I understand Chalice of the Void @ 0 is really good, but most TES and AnY builds play anti-hate like Chain of Vapor and the likes. What are your strategies to win this match-up?

Grt, Tom

Are you from LA?

Usually the scary starts are the ones involving Lackey and Piledrivers backed by Ports/Wastes.

[Nelis]

In most matchups (and against an unknown), you will usually drop a Vial before a Lackey if you have them both in hand on turn one. Against combo, however, you should drop your Lackey first and try to win as fast as possible. It would help to practice goldfishing the deck so that you can improve your chances in a race.

Interesting, I almost always start with Lackey if I have both in hand. I have two main reasons:

1. A resolved first turn Lackey has more chance of getting through than a 2nd or 3rd turn Lackey which improves the chance of winning.
2. I rather have my lackey countered (fow/daze) than my Vial (and if Lackey isn't countered when playing against control, see 1)

I'm interested to hear other peoples opinions on this topic.

[kilukru]

I am a TES player so I tought I would drop a word on the match-up

The key to goblin winning the match is simple, early and heavy pressure and mana denial, if you miss one of the two, chances are your gonna loose.

Chalice@0 is good only if you have pressure. Against goblin we want to go fast, if we try the fast AdN way, most of the time we will have 0 mana floating and we will need to rely on 0-mana artefact to go off after AdN
Chalice@2 is still the best, since it cut all of our tutors, if you can hit 4 mana this one is a no brainer

Also, you got to have Goblin sharpshooter! If you dont, EtW is an easy win against gob, only 10gob for us on T1 is usualy enought to block your lackey and put enought pressure on you to win.

Mindbreak trap dosnt work well, I have faced it a couple time and it never was a factor

Dont keep an average hand, average wont cut it in this M-U, dont be affraid to mulligan.

One final comment (this one is dirty), dont be affraid to mintrick your oponent, combo player tend to be a paranoïd bunch so try and make them beleive you have mindbreak or sharpshooter even if you dont, doing this can easely gain you a turn or even prevent you from seing an EtW.

And like it was mentinned before, if you expect a lot of combo, dont take Goblin

[Justin]

Interesting, I almost always start with Lackey if I have both in hand. I have two main reasons:

1. A resolved first turn Lackey has more chance of getting through than a 2nd or 3rd turn Lackey which improves the chance of winning.
2. I rather have my lackey countered (fow/daze) than my Vial (and if Lackey isn't countered when playing against control, see 1)

I'm interested to hear other peoples opinions on this topic.

As I said, it depends on the matchup. It may also depend if you are on the play or the draw. But my strategy is to drop Vial over Lackey if I am on the play game 1 against an unknown deck. The reason is that there are more answers to Lackey than Vial (meaning more creature removal and blockers than artifact hate). Say that you are on the play for G1. You will resolve your 1-drop unless your opponent plays Force of Will. If you play Lackey over Vial, your opponent could remove it with Swords to Plowshares or some other cheap removal spell. They could also drop a blocker that you cannot get around. You then won't be able to swing with your Lackey on turn two. You can cast the Vial on turn two, but if you don't have a second one-drop, you are wasting unused mana. On the other hand, you could drop Vial over Lackey. If your opponent does not Force it, he probably doesn't have an early answer to Vial. You can bring in Lackey off Vial at the end of your opponents turn two, while still having mana to cast a two-drop or Port one of your opponent's lands (which could be key, such as Porting a white-mana land so your opponent cannto swords your lackey). Sticking a Vial on turn 1 is huge because you can vial all of your stuff in a turn earlier than if you had waited until turn two.

There are cases in which playing Lackey first is the best option. You should do this against combo decks and decks that do not play much removal or answers for Lackey. As you note, playing around daze may be another reason to not play Vial turn one if you are on the draw. Having more than one Lackey in your opponent hand might also encourage you to play one of the on turn one.

When Nimble Mongoose was being played like crazy, I think most Goblin players had concluded that Vial is generally a better first-turn play than Lackey. With the disappearence of Mongoose, it might be worth reconsidering this question, but I still believe that Vial will usually be the best choice.

[ScatmanX]

Vial x Lackey.
This is a good subject.

Usually I tend to go for Vial against an unknown opponent.
The reason behind this is that my lackey usually gets removal, and than we have to wait to play Vial on turn 2, making it useful only by turn 4...
When you drop Vial first, your opponent can do whatever he wants turn 1, but usually turn 2 he plays a blocker or leave W open, to StP.
In situation #1, we can remove the blocker, either with Bolt, or getting a MWM into play by vial, and dealing 3 dmg to the blocker in your turn. That's usually enough.
In situation 2, we can Port or Waste his manasource during his 2nd mainphase, and get Lackey into play eot.

Of course, against combo (and I count all Survival builds here too), Lackey is usually the best card. (Unless you're up against something like TES, and opens Mountain, Port, Waste, Lackey, Vial, Driver, Matron). <----- Just realized that Lackey is better even in this case... =p

[Justin]

Against an unknown deck on the play for game 1, what if you had the following hand: MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, LACKEY, LACKEY, VIAL, RINGLEADER, BOLT? You might opt for Lackey first in this example, because in order to win, you need to cheat the Ringleader in ASAP (I would say the same if the Ringleader was a Siege-Gang). Because of your lack of 2cc and 3cc goblins, Vial may not be too good to you in this situation. You can always drop Vial and a second Lackey on turn two, or one of them and a lightning bolt to a blocker.

On the other hand, if your starting hand was: MOUNTAIN, WASTELAND, LACKEY, VIAL, PILEDRIVER, WARCHIEF, RINGLEADER, you would probably want to drop the Vial first against an unknown deck. You don't have any removal in hand to help clear a path for the Lackey. You also have a nice curve for your goblins (with a one-drop, two-drop, three-drop, and four-drop), and this makes Vial very strong.

You really need to study the particular starting hand and make a determination of which is the better play. From my experience, however, Vial will be the best play most of the time.

[Hof]

Lackey or Vial? Sounds like a Luxury Problem to me :)

[jrw1985]

Lackey or Vial?

Lackey. Almost always Lackey.

Why?

If they don't have an answer for it they just lose.

Yes, Vial is harder to hate. Yes, Vial T1 allows for open mana AND a Lackey T2. But Lackey wins.

Also, what would your opponent want to see? If they're on Combo they want to see as little easly pressure as possible, so they'd rather you play Vial. If they're on Survival they don't want to use their Heirarch to block a Lackey. They'd rather you Vial too. Really any matchup wants to see Vial over Lackey because Vial doesn't punish them for missing a 1 drop like Lackey does.

[Justin]

Lackey or Vial?

Lackey. Almost always Lackey.

Why?

If they don't have an answer for it they just lose.

Yes, Vial is harder to hate. Yes, Vial T1 allows for open mana AND a Lackey T2. But Lackey wins.

Also, what would your opponent want to see? If they're on Combo they want to see as little easly pressure as possible, so they'd rather you play Vial. If they're on Survival they don't want to use their Heirarch to block a Lackey. They'd rather you Vial too. Really any matchup wants to see Vial over Lackey because Vial doesn't punish them for missing a 1 drop like Lackey does.

I already said that Lackey is a better first turn play than vial against Combo. We don't disagree there. Most of the time, however, vial is a better play against control or aggro. Resolving a turn one vial is huge against control decks because you can cheat in goblins every turn without having them hit by normal countermagic. If your turn one Lackey eats a Swords, you are really behind the 8-ball against them. Against aggro decks, such as Zoo, you generally want to get your vial down on turn one. A Lackey is just likely to eat a bolt spell.

Here's another advantage of landing a turn one vial: it forces your opponent to reconsider his plan. If you have a vial with one counter on it, the opponent will have to respect that. He will need to either leave mana open for a removal spell (instead of casting more creatures or sorcery spells) or leave two creatures as blockers (in case you vial in Lackey and have removal). The threat of vialiing in a turn two Lackey buys you time in many control/aggro matchups.

[JonBarber]

Resolving a turn one vial is huge against control decks because you can cheat in goblins every turn without having them hit by normal countermagic.

By playing the turn 1 lackey you bait out their countermagic removal. This also allows for a daze proof turn 2 vial. Not to mention, the loss of 1 turn vs. control on the vial is not a huge issue. Your still super favored in the match up.

[Justin]

By playing the turn 1 lackey you bait out their countermagic removal. This also allows for a daze proof turn 2 vial. Not to mention, the loss of 1 turn vs. control on the vial is not a huge issue. Your still super favored in the match up.

Yes, I already said this a few posts earlier. You might play Lackey first over vial if you are on the draw and playing around Daze. Of course, against control decks that don't run Daze (Thopters, Landstill, MUC), you might prefer to play vial first, even on the draw.

[Nelis]

I must say I asked some of my local players (better players than me) and until now they all agree on playing Lackey first against an unknown opponent. (I asked objectively and did not tell them my opinion when I asked.)

They all agree that the possible tempo gain from a connecting lackey outweighs the other possibilities. Goblins is still an aggro deck after all (even though it can take on the control role as well).

I think the question is if you believe a turn one Lackey vs Control is always the better option or not. Control and combo together is 2/3s of Magic's deck archetypes so I would still argue that turn one lackey is best play in an unknown environment.

[lotriderm]

I agree with what Justin said earlier - it depends on your hand. Against an unknown opponent and my hand consists of Goblin Lackey and Siege-Gang Commander, I would definitely play Lackey over Vial. But if I have something like Lackey, Piledriver, and MWM, then I would play my Vial first.

There is not that much of a tempo gain, I'm going to be dropping a MWM through my Lackey.

[Talanos]

I posted this question a few pages back but I think it got lost amongst all the survival discussions, so forgive the repost. Also, I have been following the thread and I know this question has been addressed to some degree, but I was hoping for an on point explanation and strategy analysis on this issue in particular.

As a preface, I ask this because of the apparent upswing in mono-red builds. The times I have tried mono-red, my biggest problem becomes facing decks with goyf and knight. In the black splash, you have WW main and Perish board to help handle these big guys. Mono-red is reduced to GI, which may not be enough when dealing with their removal and the need to chump alot, and pyro, which often times still cannot deal with those big green guys without a 3 for 1 or somesuch. Knight especially seems completely out of range at times.

How does one go about handling gofy and knight in mono-red?

[Justin]

I posted this question a few pages back but I think it got lost amongst all the survival discussions, so forgive the repost. Also, I have been following the thread and I know this question has been addressed to some degree, but I was hoping for an on point explanation and strategy analysis on this issue in particular.

As a preface, I ask this because of the apparent upswing in mono-red builds. The times I have tried mono-red, my biggest problem becomes facing decks with goyf and knight. In the black splash, you have WW main and Perish board to help handle these big guys. Mono-red is reduced to GI, which may not be enough when dealing with their removal and the need to chump alot, and pyro, which often times still cannot deal with those big green guys without a 3 for 1 or somesuch. Knight especially seems completely out of range at times.

How does one go about handling gofy and knight in mono-red?

I prefer the black splash, but it is tougher to beat decks that use those big creatures with mono-red. Goblins runs about 30 creatures, and a lot of New Horrizons and Rock builds only run about 12. Zoo runs more, but you still have the long-term creature advantage. You can win the long game by overwhelming them with too many goblins if you can live long enough. Mogg War Marshal helps you do this. He can provide up to three chump blockers for a single card. Fortunately, Goyf and Knight do not trample. Stingscourger can also buy you some time by bouncing one of their big guys and chumping another. It can also clear a path for Lackey or remove a blocker during your alpha strike. Relic of Progenitus can help in the side against some decks. Against New Horrizons, it turns their Knights into 2/2s, their Goyfs into 0/1s, and kills their Terravores dead.

[Talanos]

I prefer the black splash, but it is tougher to beat decks that use those big creatures with mono-red. Goblins runs about 30 creatures, and a lot of New Horrizons and Rock builds only run about 12. Zoo runs more, but you still have the long-term creature advantage. You can win the long game by overwhelming them with too many goblins if you can live long enough. Mogg War Marshal helps you do this. He can provide up to three chump blockers for a single card. Fortunately, Goyf and Knight do not trample. Stingscourger can also buy you some time by bouncing one of their big guys and chumping another. It can also clear a path for Lackey or remove a blocker during your alpha strike. Relic of Progenitus can help in the side against some decks. Against New Horrizons, it turns their Knights into 2/2s, their Goyfs into 0/1s, and kills their Terravores dead.

Yeah, I definatly like MWM in the matchup, but I've fallen out of favor with SS. It rarely seems to help get lackey through since they usually just path/bolt/cl your lackey instead of assuming that they can block it and that you won't have a removal. At other times, it stalls for a turn but rarely does it seem to accomplish much in the long run, at the cost of a card. I'm iffy about Relic because, while it will hurt those guys, it doesn't do much against the rest of the creatures and is pretty low-impact for a non goblin off the top. They still have their creatures, goyf still counts your GY, and they can just rebuild pretty fast with a knight on defense. While you do have the long term creature advantage, all your creatures are smaller, and they have lots of removal.

I've read some people post that "you don't need perish" to deal with those creatures, and I'm just not sure how the game is supposed to play out in your favor when you have to suicide your guys into their blockers every turn, or be forced to continually chump. Combined with their removal, I just find it hard to stablize the board in my favor. Its an attrition war that seems tough to beat for me in my experience.

[Tom T]

I posted this question a few pages back but I think it got lost amongst all the survival discussions, so forgive the repost. Also, I have been following the thread and I know this question has been addressed to some degree, but I was hoping for an on point explanation and strategy analysis on this issue in particular.

As a preface, I ask this because of the apparent upswing in mono-red builds. The times I have tried mono-red, my biggest problem becomes facing decks with goyf and knight. In the black splash, you have WW main and Perish board to help handle these big guys. Mono-red is reduced to GI, which may not be enough when dealing with their removal and the need to chump alot, and pyro, which often times still cannot deal with those big green guys without a 3 for 1 or somesuch. Knight especially seems completely out of range at times.

How does one go about handling gofy and knight in mono-red?

With MWM and Siege-Gang Commander you can stall them a couple of turns. When you combine these with Lightning Bolt/Sharpshooter/Gempalm Incinerator you may even get the chance to kill a couple (Sharpshooter kills x/3 in combat with one blocker with power 1 and kills x/5 with two blockers with power 1, very nice!).

I noticed Aether Vial is an essential piece when playing against a deck with Goyf/KotR, because you have to build blockers ánd an attacking force. Otherwise you won't keep up.

Grt, Tom

[ScatmanX]

@Talanos: Goblins don't NEED black do deal with Goyfs and Relicarys, but it sure help.
When playing against those big guys, you need to get defensive. Stall with MWM, chump with lousy Matrons and such. Bring enough goblins down to get their creatures into Gempalm range.
Do NOT cycle Gempalm when they have removal mana open, cause they can nullify your gempalm.
Other tactic is just to get 2 Piledrivers and a Warchief out. There you go. When you hit with 2 5/2 goblins, or more, and they'll probably block Piledriver, and trade him with their guys. This is great for you, since you have shitloads of Goblins, and they have only few big guys.

Oh, and if you play Bolt, you soon find out how many Goyfs and Relicarys he's capable of killing. The first one they play is usually in Bolt range.

[jrw1985]

4x AEther Vial

3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger
2x Warren Instigator

2x Warren Weirding

1x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
6x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Earwig Squad
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Extirpate
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pulverize
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher

So I played in my local Thursday night Legacy tourney yesterday with the above list. I thought I'd tell you all how it went.

Round 1 - Staxx
G1
I win the roll and open on a T1 Vial. He has T1 Trinisphere. I get some guys on the board while he plays Ghostly Prison. This card is a pain to fight through, but I'm paying the 2 to hit him with Lackey and put a Chieftain into play. He plays a Magus of the Tabernacle. I Warren Weirding it away and pay 4 a turn to attack with Chieftain and Warchief and take the win.
G2
I side out 4 Piledrivers for Tinkerer, Pulverize, Shusher and Pyrokinesis. G1 I saw Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere so I know I'll be needing artifact hate.
He has no T1 play so I get a T1 Vial again. It's a much more difficult match on the draw. He plays Chalice at 2 then a Magus of the Tabernacle. I Matron for a Weirding since I also have Shusher in hand to get around the Chalice. Unfortunately he plays two Baneslayer Angels and I can't go off. I chose not to play the Shusher because i don't want him knowing what I sided since I'm losing this game anyway.
G3
On the play again and life is good. I mull to 5 but have much more business than he does, and I get a T1 Lackey and Port him T2 while filling the board with Goblins.
This was a decent MU though I should have been more aggressive with my Shusher G2.
REMEMBER: IF YOUR OPPONENT HAS GHOSTLY PRISON OR PROPAGANDA IN PLAY YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAY 2 TO ATTACK A PLAINSWALKER. THEY ONLY TRIGGER WHEN YOU ATTACK A PLAYER.
2-1
1-0

Round 2 - GBW Survival
G1
I'm on the draw. T2 he has a Survival in play and a Vine in the yard. He starts eating my face T3 and I'm dead T4. All I manage to do this game is Gempalm his Heirarche, but its too late. I lose.
G2
I side in 2 Needle, 2 Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt, Perish, Pyrokinesis, Tinkerer. I side out my Aether Vials since I don't want to dilute the deck too much.
I start out with a Needle on Survival. He plays a Bird. He eventually hard casts a Vine. I Perish then Extirpate his Vines. I get a good look through his deck and see the Ooze combo in there, but not much else now that Vine is gone. He hard casts a Wispmare and then plays and equips a Jitte on it. That pretty much clears my board but I'm able to Needle the Jitte too. Once that's done the game is mine. He actually hard casts the Devourer at one point, then sees it die immediately when the first card he reveals is Triskelion. I win.
G3
He starts out with a Heirarch on the play. I play Needle on Survival. He casts Survival and passes. I play Tinkerer. He makes a land drop and passes. I play a Sharpshooter. Things are looking good for me. T4 he Natural Orders the hierarch for Progenitus, then plays a Shield Sphere and Rootwalla. I Tinkerer the Shield Sphere, Sharpshoot the Rootwalla, then need to topdeck a Wierding or Matron before Progenitus kills me. It doesn't happen, and I die.
I'm actually not too disappointed since G1 he was on the play, which puts us at a great disadvantage. G3 I was absolutely in the game, and was capable of winning had the cards fallen in my favor. They didn't this time, but that's Magic. I was in the game all the way and had outs for his game plan, so I don't feel too disappointed in the loss.
1-2
1-1

Round 3 - Team America
G1
I win! Nothing of interest to report.
G2
I side in Pyroblast, Pyrokinesis, Shusher, and Perish for Gempalms (most of his guys are too big to burn out unless I'm already in a dominant board position).
He keeps a 1 lander while I mull to 5. His 1 land is a Bayou, which doesn't help him cast the Brainstorm in hand. After I Wasteland it he dies without a permanent in play.
2-0
2-1

Round 4 - UG Tempo
This is a must win if I'm gonna make top 8
G1
He gets 2 Vials in play at 1 and 2, but has nothing to back them up. So goblins run over him.
G2
I side in Tinkerer, Pyroblast, Pyrokinesis, perish, and Shusher. I sided out Instigators and Gempalms.
Long story short he gets 3 Standstills off on me, replays Spellstutter Sprite after Ninjitsuing it back to his hand to draw more cards, and then gets an active Jitte on the board. I can't come back from that.
G3
I side out my Vials for 2 Needles (to turn off his Vials) and I side my Instigators back in.
This game was very unlucky for me. My first 7 were great, but my no land. My next 6 were 5 lands and a Siege Gang Commander. Down to 5 and I had a Perish, a Swamp, and red cards. I was really looking for a 1 drop still, so I mulled to 4. If I can get a T1 Lackey this game should be over. I mull to 4 and see that same singleton Swamp and same singleton Perish and 3cc red cards. Fuck. Keep
I play swamp. Go. I draw land, land while he plays some a Goyf and a Jitte. I cast Perish with no mana open because I know that if I don't this game is over for me. I can't have a Goyf with an active Jitte beating me down. He dazes the Perish. Game.
I think I tried to play this MU too defensively. Shusher was a bad side card, Tinkerer was too slow and I should have kept my Vials in for game 3 to give me as many 1 drops as possible. Siding in the Needles was too tricky. I was trying to be sneaky and my opening hands paid the price. So it goes. I really needed to be super aggro this MU and it just didn't happen.
1-2
2-2
I miss top 8 in a 17 man tourney. The Team America player from round 3 was going to drop at 1-1-1 after our match when I told him he should stick around since with a win he could still make top 8. Well, there he was in the top 8. Rough night.
Top 8
GU Tempo (R4)
UG Survival
GBW Survival (R2)
GW Survival
Team America (R3)
Aggro Loam
The Rock
43 Lands

What I learned-
Tinkerer is slow slow slow. Tinkerer and Pulverize are going to become Shattering Sprees. Spree is faster than Tinkerer and more versatile than Pulverize. But it just doesn't have that same WOW factor as pulverize. OK, so I'm not sure yet about Pulverize's future in my SB, but Tinkerer has got to go. Sorry buddy. Wait, I've made up my mine about Pulverize- it's out, Spree's in. I was worried about Spree being vulnerable to Chalice, but then I remembered its Replicate copies will still trigger even if the original is countered. Seems good.
Shusher is awesome and lousy. He's super slow, and he slows down the aggressiveness of the deck, but there are tons of Chalices running around that he could be great against. I think he stays. He's probably a bad choice against blue counterspells, and is more appropriate against chalice.
Needle is kick ass.
I need to side fewer cards in certain MUs. The loss to UG Tempo was avoidable.
Pyroblast is good, but will have to become a Pyrokinesis to deal with T1 birds and hierarchs and the like.
I still like the RB build since Extirpate and Weirding make me a happy happy man. I'm still looking forward to Survival being banned. I continue to have a love/hate relationship with Gempalm, but I'll keep coming back to him.

REVISED SIDEBOARD
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Earwig Squad
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Extirpate
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher
2X Shattering Spree

[lotriderm]

@ Dealing with KOTRs and Goyfs with monoR goblins

I never really had a problem with that matchup as their removal suite is typically STPs and Engineered Explosives. Explosives rarely take out that many guys due to the varied casting costs of all our goblins. We have so many "must-kill" goblins (lackey, piledriver, warchief), that STP can't handle all of them. Usually, I just chump for a while, build an army, kill/bounce one of their guys, then swing. Typically if I have seveal goblins on the table, the opponent isn't going to be attacking.

[jin]

@ Dealing with KOTRs and Goyfs with monoR goblins

I never really had a problem with that matchup as their removal suite is typically STPs and Engineered Explosives. Explosives rarely take out that many guys due to the varied casting costs of all our goblins. We have so many "must-kill" goblins (lackey, piledriver, warchief), that STP can't handle all of them. Usually, I just chump for a while, build an army, kill/bounce one of their guys, then swing. Typically if I have seveal goblins on the table, the opponent isn't going to be attacking.

Agreed. Goblin accels in the late game and we typically (in today's metagame) want to push the game to a battle of attrition. 1 for is ALWAYS in our favor. Therefore,Stingscourger is strong because trading their removal (sometimes netting us a land) for our Lackey isn't exactly a bad trade. I guess we lose our Lackey plus our stinger, but that's ok. Card disadvatange isn't always a big problem for Goblin and that we can recover from it pretty easily.

Please note that I didn't say it was a good trade or that it was a good play. I'm just saying it's not a big deal to get your lackey plows because (let's face it) we kind of expect it now-a-days.

Like a lot of people have said, the mono-red version of Goblins do fine against big green creatures. To be honest, goyf/KOTR typically grow slower against Goblins than any other deck since all we play are basic lands (which cannot be wasted), creatures and a very small amount of artifacts (so goyf doesn't get exactly huge). If they want their green creatures to be huge, they have to build it themselves and that takes time. Like I said, Goblins love to push the game to late.

[Mantis]

Opening with Vial vs. Lackey versus an unknown deck.
First and foremost this decision relies on your hand.
A hand like: Vial, Lackey, MWM, Piledriver, Mountain, Port, Wasteland, lends itself much better to a first turn Vial. Whereas a hand with Vial, Lackey, Siege Gang, Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourger/Warren Weirding, and 3 lands you will obviously lead with Lackey.

Then it depends on whether I am on the play or not. If I am starting leading with Lackey is a lot more appealing since my opponent can't just drop a Goyf and block Lackey all day.

It also depends on how my opponents comes across. I like to believe I can make a decent estamation based on what my opponent looks like in which of the three categories: Storm, CB/Top or other deck he falls into. A player with messy shuffle habits and with a creased piece of paper that he pulls out of his pocket will most likely not be a control player. Against this player I probably want my Vial first as I'm gearing up for the long game. I will put a player that leaves a silent, pseudo autistic appearance on a storm combo pilot, against this player I definately want my Lackey first. This method is nowhere near waterproof obviously, but if you do notice you are good at the guessing game then by all means use it to your advantage I would say.

[jin]

Opening with Vial vs. Lackey versus an unknown deck.
First and foremost this decision relies on your hand.
A hand like: Vial, Lackey, MWM, Piledriver, Mountain, Port, Wasteland, lends itself much better to a first turn Vial. Whereas a hand with Vial, Lackey, Siege Gang, Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourger/Warren Weirding, and 3 lands you will obviously lead with Lackey.

Then it depends on whether I am on the play or not. If I am starting leading with Lackey is a lot more appealing since my opponent can't just drop a Goyf and block Lackey all day.

It also depends on how my opponents comes across. I like to believe I can make a decent estamation based on what my opponent looks like in which of the three categories: Storm, CB/Top or other deck he falls into. A player with messy shuffle habits and with a creased piece of paper that he pulls out of his pocket will most likely not be a control player. Against this player I probably want my Vial first as I'm gearing up for the long game. I will put a player that leaves a silent, pseudo autistic appearance on a storm combo pilot, against this player I definately want my Lackey first. This method is nowhere near waterproof obviously, but if you do notice you are good at the guessing game then by all means use it to your advantage I would say.

I guess to sum up, it is safe to say that BOTH Vial and Lackey are reasonable opening plays. At a higher level, playing either has its advantages and disadvantages, but the player has to be the judge of that and decide which is the best play.

As a more GENERAL rule (for beginners), it seems to be safe to say that Lackey is the play to go for first since Vial is the safer card to have and Lackey (aggressively) is the stronger card to have its effects resovle. This general rule is also how I began playing Goblins and is good for people who are less experienced with the deck.

[antonbystedt]

To the Lackey or Vial question:
If i have a Bolt in my hand, i would go for Lackey. Otherwise i would almost always go for Vial against an unknown deck.

[GoboLord]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

I thought about the banning of Survival of the Fittest. I don't want to continue this endless "Should Survival be banned?" discussion here. What I find more interesting is to think one step further: We already worked out strategies that work quite well against Vengevival, but what if they really ban it?

How would the metagame change? Which decks will become more popular? And (the most important thing) how does this effect us? What are possible changes in MD and SB? I want to hear your oppinions on that =)

[Nidd]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

I thought about the banning of Survival of the Fittest. I don't want to continue this endless "Should Survival be banned?" discussion here. What I find more interesting is to think one step further: We already worked out strategies that work quite well against Vengevival, but what if they really ban it?

How would the metagame change? Which decks will become more popular? And (the most important thing) how does this effect us? What are possible changes in MD and SB? I want to hear your oppinions on that =)
Control suddenly becomes better again while UBG Landstill might lose some of it's power.
CounterTop resurging makes Merfolk better than before, which in turn means we see a favorable MU more often.
Zoo has some problems with Vines, I think, so they will see play more often again after the ban - a MU we don't like.

That's everything I can see happening atm, the format should be a better place for Goblins afterwards - if Control still is a good MU.

[lotriderm]

I guess to sum up, it is safe to say that BOTH Vial and Lackey are reasonable opening plays. At a higher level, playing either has its advantages and disadvantages, but the player has to be the judge of that and decide which is the best play.

As a more GENERAL rule (for beginners), it seems to be safe to say that Lackey is the play to go for first since Vial is the safer card to have and Lackey (aggressively) is the stronger card to have its effects resovle. This general rule is also how I began playing Goblins and is good for people who are less experienced with the deck.

To simplify it even more, if Lackey connects, what are you cheating in? Unless that goblin card is going to be explosive (ie. Siege-Gang or Warchief), I would most likely be playing Vial first.

[Vandalize]

Humm, the fall of Vengevines will make the splashing goblin decklists (especially R/B) more common, probably. I'll stick with my mono-red list and my MD won't change a single card. Skirk Shooter synergy is great against every match I can remember.

Although, my sideboard would change a little bit, I'd drop one Pyrokinesis and replace the LotV with Tormod's Crypt (which can be played as a three of). I'd add some artifact hate too, since SoM added a real power to artifact based decks (not only affinity). I've seem some decklists using and abusing of Metalworker, and they reached a good level of board control (something like a brown staxx).

My MD should still look like this:

Lands:
14x Mountain
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

Core:
4x AEther Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal:
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Lightning Bolt

Flexible Slots:
3x Mogg War Marshal
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Skirk Prospector

And my sideboard like this:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Anarchy
2x Shattering Spree
1x TukTuk Scrapper

I'll make a few tests to see wether should I keep the Crypts. My meta runs a lot of Affinity, Merfolk, Storm; Some Dredge and CounterTops and a little of every other decklists.

[jrw1985]

I was planning on playing in a monthly tourny today. I was pretty excited for it. Then Mother Nature dumped 18 inches of snow on Minneapolis. Stupid Minnesota.

[jrw1985]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

I thought about the banning of Survival of the Fittest. I don't want to continue this endless "Should Survival be banned?" discussion here. What I find more interesting is to think one step further: We already worked out strategies that work quite well against Vengevival, but what if they really ban it?

How would the metagame change? Which decks will become more popular? And (the most important thing) how does this effect us? What are possible changes in MD and SB? I want to hear your oppinions on that =)

Merfolk will come back in a big way, which is good. So will CounterTop. Also good. And discard heavy Rock decks will be less appealing. Also good for us.

Wouldn't it be cool if they just banned Rootwalla? That's really what gives the deck its explosiveness, and the explosiveness is what makes it powerful. If you read this article you'll see an interesting point - http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1280 - that Thirst for Knowledge was banned in Vintage because it enabled the Tezzerat decks to dominate the format. Well Rootwalla is really the enabler to both Survival and Vengevine. Without a creature that can be discarded and played for free the Survival decks are still free to fill their graveyards with Vines, but they then have to play fair in activating them. That would seem to make the most sense. Vines couldn't go off unless they had 2 creatures in hand. Then the deck would actually be susceptible to mana denial. And if the deck needed to hold onto more creatures it wouldn't be able to cast turn 1 Noble Hierachs and BoPs for mana fixing and acceleration so readily. Just a thought.

[GoboLord]

And what would change in our MD/SB?
Right now I feel like there is no room for STingscourger and Warren Weirding.

Having a creature in MD that is only able to bounce your opponent's creature seems bad against Survival.
Warren Weirding also doesn't hit properly, cause when facing Vengevival they always have other stuff to sac (like Rootwalla and Shield Sphere).
Of course I am only considering Vengevival decks here, but they are dominating the format and I therefore don't want to pack removal that's bad against them.

btw.


Then the deck would actually be susceptible to mana denial.
It already is IS very susceptible to manadenial (in this case manadenial should also take the form of removal @ Hierarchs BoPs)

[Mantis]

Merfolk will come back in a big way, which is good. So will CounterTop. Also good. And discard heavy Rock decks will be less appealing. Also good for us.

Wouldn't it be cool if they just banned Rootwalla? That's really what gives the deck its explosiveness, and the explosiveness is what makes it powerful. If you read this article you'll see an interesting point - http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1280 - that Thirst for Knowledge was banned in Vintage because it enabled the Tezzerat decks to dominate the format. Well Rootwalla is really the enabler to both Survival and Vengevine. Without a creature that can be discarded and played for free the Survival decks are still free to fill their graveyards with Vines, but they then have to play fair in activating them. That would seem to make the most sense. Vines couldn't go off unless they had 2 creatures in hand. Then the deck would actually be susceptible to mana denial. And if the deck needed to hold onto more creatures it wouldn't be able to cast turn 1 Noble Hierachs and BoPs for mana fixing and acceleration so readily. Just a thought.
They could just use Shrieking Drake and Memnite, and still dominate the format. I am not particulary in favor of banning anything, but if you ban Basking Rootwalla with the intention to weaken UG Madness, I don't see it happening.

[Vandalize]

Yeah, banning rootwalla would make no difference at all. They have a bunch of free creatures they can tutor for... Not only Shrieking Drake or Memnite. They have access to Kobolds, Phyrexian Walker, Phyrexian Marauder, etc...

The problem with Vengevival isn't its explosiveness, as everyone is talking about... The problem is that they can tutor for an answer (in form of creatures) for every hate on the deck: Shriekmaw, Qasali Pridemage, Orzhov Pontiff, etc... Still, it's not a "breaking format" strategy.

[jrw1985]

And what would change in our MD/SB?
Right now I feel like there is no room for STingscourger and Warren Weirding.

Having a creature in MD that is only able to bounce your opponent's creature seems bad against Survival.
Warren Weirding also doesn't hit properly, cause when facing Vengevival they always have other stuff to sac (like Rootwalla and Shield Sphere).
Of course I am only considering Vengevival decks here, but they are dominating the format and I therefore don't want to pack removal that's bad against them.

Stingscourger and weirding aren't as amazing as they were when Reaminator was everywhere. However, they still have a variety of uses that keep them playable. Yes, Stingscourger sucks against Survival, but that's why Sideboarding is part of the game. Stingscourger is still great against KotR, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Emrakul, and Iona. Being able to cheat it into play off of Lackey and Vial is also tremendously powerful.

Weirding is still great across the board, even against Survival. You really want it in your deck when the Survival player gets sneaky and decides to side in Natural Order/ Progenitus.


It already is IS very susceptible to manadenial (in this case manadenial should also take the form of removal @ Hierarchs BoPs)

Creature removal is not mana denial. NH and BoP make Wasteland less effective and Survival's activation is Port proof.


They could just use Shrieking Drake and Memnite, and still dominate the format. I am not particulary in favor of banning anything, but if you ban Basking Rootwalla with the intention to weaken UG Madness, I don't see it happening.

Banning Rootwalla would hamper Survival a ton. With Rootwalla in the deck Survival needs only 1 creature to make Vengevines go online and have a utility creature in hand (Survival Creature, vine, vine, vine, vine, rootwalla, rootwalla, utility creature in hand). Since they only need 1 creature in hand to do this they can keep opening hands with just Survival because they know they only need to draw into 1 creature to make it go online. Also, since creatures are not a resource the deck needs to manage (because of Rootwalla) it can play T1 NH or BoP knowing they can still draw into a second creature to get their chain going. That gives the deck mana acceleration and mana fixing options that wouldn't be available to it if it couldn't play Rootwalla. Shrieking Drake could be good in the deck, but it can't be played at instant speed like Rootwalla, so it can't be used to play around mana denial.

[ScatmanX]

I think there will be a lot of Merfolk / Counterbalnce/ Zoo / Junk / Bant.
With That, I'll probably go back to Rb, with Weirdings, and Perish and Planar Void sb...

[jin]

Stingscourger and weirding aren't as amazing as they were when Reaminator was everywhere..

I hope we are talking about both cards in the same deck, because I played mono-red with stinger in the main against reanimator and I would hardly call that amazing. At best I would say I was relieved to have him and Vial at 2 considering a stinger without AEther Vial means you still lose.


Creature removal is not mana denial. NH and BoP make Wasteland less effective and Survival's activation is Port proof.


It was a poor choice of words, but we all knew what he meant. He basically wants to limit Survival's G so that they can't explode.



Banning Rootwalla would hamper Survival a ton. With Rootwalla in the deck Survival needs only 1 creature to make Vengevines go online and have a utility creature in hand (Survival Creature, vine, vine, vine, vine, rootwalla, rootwalla, utility creature in hand). Since they only need 1 creature in hand to do this they can keep opening hands with just Survival because they know they only need to draw into 1 creature to make it go online. Also, since creatures are not a resource the deck needs to manage (because of Rootwalla) it can play T1 NH or BoP knowing they can still draw into a second creature to get their chain going. That gives the deck mana acceleration and mana fixing options that wouldn't be available to it if it couldn't play Rootwalla. Shrieking Drake could be good in the deck, but it can't be played at instant speed like Rootwalla, so it can't be used to play around mana denial.

The wizard people have experience with this stuff, I'm pretty sure they'll take care of it. I wonder if they have a ton of people build the deck except not allow them to use that card and see if the deck is still functional.. LOL...

[Tom T]

Hey guys,

yesterday I participated in my first leacy tournament ever. :laugh: It has been 3 years since the last tournament (standard).
As I said I expected a lot of tendrills-decks and aggro. The list I play is the same as most of the goblin warchiefs here:

//Mainboard

Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

Standard Package [26]
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Flexibel Slots [12]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

3 Lightning Bolt

//Sideboard [15]
3 Relic of Progenitus (Random GY-hate)
4 Chalice of the Void (TES, AnT, Thresh, Stiflenaught)
4 Pyrokinesis (UG-Survival, GW-Survival, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Elves, <insert random small aggro-deck>)
3 Pithing Needle (CounterTop, Equipment, Survival, Grindstone, Affinity, a lot more)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (Equipment, Dreadnaught, other scary artifacts)


With this list I tested A LOT against (Small) Zoo, Big Zoo, Affinity, GW-survival, UGW-Survival and URg-Thresh. The first 5 decks were a pain in the ass all the time, but I knew these were my baddest match-ups. This mindset kept me from losing faith in the deck. :smile: It quickly became clear that post-board Pyrokinesis really shined against a lot of match-ups. :cool:

There were 28 enthousiasts who came all the way to Eindhoven for a couple of games. In the same store there was a Constructed PTQ with like 60 participants.
Before the tournament began I took a look around to see what I could expect from the other players.
I saw some The Rock, Zoo and UG-Survival. There also were a lot of Goblin-decks (5 out of 28).
But! No TES/AnT! :laugh:


[Round 1] Tristan with UG-Survival
Game 1)
As I head to my first opponent I recognize him as the UG-Survival player. This is my chance to test my skills against the deck.
We both mull to 6.
I start of with a Lackey, but he has a Rootwalla that keeps preventing free goblins. He gets a jitte online, while I matron for a Skirk Prospector. He thinks it's an odd choice, until I block-sac a goblin for the first time. For three turns this keeps his jitte from getting counters.
In that time I build a small army. He gets Survival and with 4 lands
(one of them is a Gaea's Cradle) he gets there with the VVines.

Out: 3 Mogg War Marshal, 1 Goblin Chieftain, 1 Gempalm Incinerator
In: 4 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk

Game 2)
He mulls to 5 and I keep my 7.
I start of with mountain lackey go
He plays a Forest, Noble Hierarch
I attack with lackey, he blocks, and I play a Vial.
He plays Mongrel and passes.
The next few turns we are both mana screwed and both stick at 2 lands.
I keep him of 2 mana with port and build my army because of Matron->Skirk Prospector. In the meantime I vial in some warchief and ringleaders which only reveal other Ringleaders. Eventually I kill him with some Piledrivers after destroying his Jitte with Tuktuk.

Out: 1 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Goblin Piledriver, 1 Vial
In: 3 Pithing Needle

Game 3)
He mulls to 3, I mull to 6.
He plays forest go
I play mountain lackey go.
He plays a Tropical Island and passes
I play wasteland, Pithing Needle @ survival, waste his Tropical Island, Pyrokinesis his Rootwalla, attack with Lackey and get myself a Matron, which gets a Sharpshooter.
He plays a land and a mongrel.
I keep him of mana with port (with a waste as backup), keep his hand empty by bolting his Mongrel and build my army. Later on I swing for the win.

1-0


[Round 2] Joost with Zoo
I knew this guy played Zoo and besides I tested a lot against the deck I must say I was quite sad with the second 'bad match-up for goblins'.

Game 1)
I get to play first and we both keep our original 7.
I play mountain vial go.
He fetches a Taiga, Nacatl, go
I play Rishadan Port go.
The next few turns I mess up his mana with the Rishadan port and 2 Wasteland. I get a couple of hits from his nacatl, which eventually dies to a Sharpshooter with a MWM trigger. He burns a lot of my creatures and eventually scoops.

Out: 2 Piledriver, 2 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Goblin Chieftain
In: 4 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk

Game 2)
We both mull to 6
He plays 1st turn Grim lavamancer. I get a Lackey which he destroys using Lightning Helix
I waste his non-basic, leaving him with a mountain and a lavamancer.
He plays Horizon Canopy and Lavamancer attacks.
Next turn I get to port his Mountain and he has no land drop.
He attacks with his Lavamancer and after I waste his Horizon Canopy he has to use Path to Exile on his own Lavamancer.
From here on I win the game because of MWM and Piledriver.

2-0

I'm going nuts here. :eek: My first tourney, 2 bad matchups and I won 2 times already. Wonderful feeling!


[Round 3] Steven with Dreadstill

Game 1)
I forgot if we mulled or not.

I start of with mountain, vial, go.
He starts off with Underground Sea, go
I play Rishadan Port go
In his upkeep I tap his Sea and he plays an Island and Ponder. EOT I vial in Lackey. He sighs.
My turn I waste his sea and connect with Lackey into Warchief
He gets a land but can't stop piledriver, lackey, warchief.

Out: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Goblin Chieftain, 1 MWM
In: 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Tuktuk

Game 2)
He gets manascrewed and my single wasteland, 2 piledriver, warchief and MWM end the round.

After this I test against his TES-deck. He tells me how the deck works, apart from winning quickly by a massive storm-count. He also explains his sideboard, hate and anti-hate. What a great guy! I prepared a bit for this match-up but the only combodecks around were 2 Solidarity-decks.

3-0

[Round 4] Really nice guy but I forgot his name with (Big?) Zoo with Noble Hierarch
It's his second tournament and since it's my first tournament we don't know if we can draw intentionally. We ask some veterans and decide to draw.
After this we play a round which i win 2-0 because of Wasteland/Port/MWM/Lightning Bolt/Pyrokinesis(!!!)/Vial

3-0-1

[Round 5] Brenda with BGW Rock + Mox Diamond, Maze of Ith
Because she is first with 11 points and I'm second with 10 points we decide to draw.
Because she's hungry we only play 1 game (without board).
First few turns I have Vial and keep her of 3 mana with Rishadan Port. She has Maze of Ith to prevent some damage. She keeps on playing discard spells like Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach and Inquisition of Kozilek.
Eventually she gets 4 mana and while I keep attacking with Piledriver. She topdecks 2 Goyf and 2 KotR, while she's on 8 life. I get Sharpshooter thanks to Matron and keep on blocking with goblins like MWM, while I shoot damage with sharpshooter.
Eventually I attack with 3 creatures when she's on 3 life. I shoot her to 0 life with Sharpshooter as my goblins die in combat.
I really feared StP at that moment.

3-0-2

I'm Top8! Wow! :laugh:
Funny thing was that 4 out of 5 of my opponents went top8. I don't know if this is common or not, though.

[Top8, Quarterfinals] Nice guy with U/B Merfolk

Game 1)
I mull to 6 and he keeps his 7.
He gets to play first. Turn1 underground sea, Vial
I waste his U-sea and pass
He gets Island and pass
I play mountain and get lackey
Next turn he has vial@2 and I'm about to attack with Lackey, but choose not to. He EOT vials in a Coralhelm Commander.
Later on I have to break a Standstill and from here on it looks bad for me. He finishes me with three lords and some other fish.

Out: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Mogg War Marshal, 1 Skirk Prospector
In: 4 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk

Game 2)
We both get 2 vial in the first and second turn. He has a lot of lords and I have 2 piledrive and a Warchief. I'm waiting for more goblins to go lethal with port backup for his Mutavault. I get Pyrokinesis (too late) but no goblins. He taps my warchief before he stomps me out of Top8 with 4 lords, Cursecatcher and a Mutavault.

I win a Scalding Tarn and end a succesful first legacy tournament with a 5th place. :smile:

I realized that Wasteland and Rishadan Port are even better than I thought they were. Zoo is even an easy match-up with the manadenial-plan, MWM and Lightning Bolt.

Merfolk isn't a hard match-up for Goblins I've heard, but I didn't know how to play the game. How do you guys play against Merfolk and which strategy do you have against it?

This thread has helped me A LOT to improve my skills with the green dudes. Thank you!

Grt, Tom

[GoboLord]

Congratz Tom, good job!

From what you wrote in your report about ingame situation I would not have played any different.
Well... against Merfolk it's not a good idea to board out Gempalms (since they don't break Standstill and interact with your opponent's Mutavaults). Plus, I'd not have boarded Scrapper.

[ScatmanX]

Thanks for the report, and congrats on the finish!
On to the comments:
Against UGMadness, why no Needle game 2?
Also, there was no need to cast Needle game 3 the way you did. He was low on mana. IF he casted Survival, you could play Needle the following turn. It he played a Jitte, you could be in bad shape there....

Against Merfolk, Gempalms are good. They are uncounterable removal that cantrip, and go under a Standstill. They should not be removed. I think they're better than Bolt here, if you don't want to remove anything else.

[Tom T]

Congratz Tom, good job!

From what you wrote in your report about ingame situation I would not have played any different.
Well... against Merfolk it's not a good idea to board out Gempalms (since they don't break Standstill and interact with your opponent's Mutavaults). Plus, I'd not have boarded Scrapper.

Thanks! I boarded Scrapper in case Jitte showed up.
After the round we had a discussion about my playing style against Merfolk. Gempalm Incinerator were indeed awesome against Merfolk, but I didn't see that while playing. Next time I'll focus more on these cards. The interaction with mutavault slipped my mind, thanks!

[Vandalize]

Congratulations Tom T!

There's only one thing I didn't like about your sideboard. Those Relic of Progenitus. I personally like Tormod's Crypt and Faerie Macabre over Relic because they're free and you don't need to leave mana open for triggering.

I didn't see any use of Siege-Gang Commander in your report, next time, you may try to sideout 1 or 2 pieces and add more hate against Zoo :)

[Amon Amarth]

@Tom T: Best way to win against Merfolk is a wall of Goblin Piledrivers, and like everyone else said dont board out Gempalms here. They are relatively slow so GI really shines here.

[lotriderm]

Like what everyone else above said, leave in Gempalm against Merfolk. I also wouldn't have sided in Tuktuk either because you saw Underground Sea in game1 and Ub Merfolk doesn't run Jitte.

A question to everyone: in matchups where I want more removal, it seems kind of counterintuitive to replace my maindeck removal with pyrokinesis. For example, Tom T sided out some Gempalms in both the Zoo and Merfolk matchups and brought in Pyrokinesis. I usually would prefer to leave in my maindeck removal and bring in more. What's everyones take on this? BTW, I don't run Lightning Bolt if that makes a difference.

[Talanos]

Like what everyone else above said, leave in Gempalm against Merfolk. I also wouldn't have sided in Tuktuk either because you saw Underground Sea in game1 and Ub Merfolk doesn't run Jitte.

A question to everyone: in matchups where I want more removal, it seems kind of counterintuitive to replace my maindeck removal with pyrokinesis. For example, Tom T sided out some Gempalms in both the Zoo and Merfolk matchups and brought in Pyrokinesis. I usually would prefer to leave in my maindeck removal and bring in more. What's everyones take on this? BTW, I don't run Lightning Bolt if that makes a difference.

I generally side out Piledrivers against Zoo and some combination of MWM and Lackey against Merfolk to bring in my removal. Usually if I'm on the play I'll leave in more lackeys, and if I'm on the draw, I'll leave in more MWM.

[Tom T]

Thanks for the report, and congrats on the finish!
On to the comments:
Against UGMadness, why no Needle game 2?
Also, there was no need to cast Needle game 3 the way you did. He was low on mana. IF he casted Survival, you could play Needle the following turn. It he played a Jitte, you could be in bad shape there....

Against Merfolk, Gempalms are good. They are uncounterable removal that cantrip, and go under a Standstill. They should not be removed. I think they're better than Bolt here, if you don't want to remove anything else.

I had 2 (maybe wrong) reasons for not boarding Needle game 2:
- Since survival and jitte were his only win conditions I guessed he would board Krosan Grip against my possible hate
- I didn't know anything to board out
Game 2 I didn't see any Grips so I boarded them

I casted Needle that turn, because I didn't have a 1-drop. This way I wouldn't have to pay mana in my following turns. He was stuck at two land and I ported him in his upkeep. I had a waste as backup, so he wouldn't have mana to equip the jitte if he would manage to play it. I'm more affraid of an active survival (which makes my port useless) than Jitte (which sucks against manadenial and creature-removal)
Thanks for your insights though.


Congratulations Tom T!

There's only one thing I didn't like about your sideboard. Those Relic of Progenitus. I personally like Tormod's Crypt and Faerie Macabre over Relic because they're free and you don't need to leave mana open for triggering.

I didn't see any use of Siege-Gang Commander in your report, next time, you may try to sideout 1 or 2 pieces and add more hate against Zoo :)
Relic didn't serve any purpose that day. I'd bring him in against Loam-decks and Dredge. I agree those slots weren't that spectacular. The Pyrokinesis, Chalice, Tuktuk and Pithing Needle where great though.


Like what everyone else above said, leave in Gempalm against Merfolk. I also wouldn't have sided in Tuktuk either because you saw Underground Sea in game1 and Ub Merfolk doesn't run Jitte.

A question to everyone: in matchups where I want more removal, it seems kind of counterintuitive to replace my maindeck removal with pyrokinesis. For example, Tom T sided out some Gempalms in both the Zoo and Merfolk matchups and brought in Pyrokinesis. I usually would prefer to leave in my maindeck removal and bring in more. What's everyones take on this? BTW, I don't run Lightning Bolt if that makes a difference.

I didn't know UB-Merfolk doesn't play Jitte, but now I do, thanks!:tongue:
Gempalm isn't that good against Zoo, because you won't have that many goblins in play during the game. And when you do, you are winning. Besides, the Zoo-pilot has effect on the burn-range of Gempalm due to his burn spells.
Pyrokinesis is good against a lot of aggro match-ups, but doesn't deserve a spot in the main deck. Lightning Bolt does.
For instance, Pyrokinesis is bad in control match-ups and Bolt isn't. Bolt cleares the way for Lackey and Pyrokinesis does that with a brutal card-disadvantage (early game trading 2 for 1). In the matchups where I side Pyrokinesis, I would trade 2 for 2 (or sometimes even 3).


I generally side out Piledrivers against Zoo and some combination of MWM and Lackey against Merfolk to bring in my removal. Usually if I'm on the play I'll leave in more lackeys, and if I'm on the draw, I'll leave in more MWM.
I agree Piledrivers aren't that good in the Zoo-matchup, though I still want 1 or 2 maindeck to get them with Matron for the win.
MWM saves the day against Zoo. Everytime I play him against Zoo the opponent sighs. He is such a pain in the butt against them. I would rather side out Siege-Gangs (for being a bit slow) than MWM's.

Furthermore, I'm thinking of removing my Goblin Chieftain from the main-deck. He's the worst goblin in the deck, I think. I'd replace him with a fourth Gempalm Incinerator.
What do you guys think?

Thanks for your kudos.:smile:

[GoboLord]

Furthermore, I'm thinking of removing my Goblin Chieftain from the main-deck. He's the worst goblin in the deck, I think. I'd replace him with a fourth Gempalm Incinerator.
What do you guys think?

Thanks for your kudos.:smile:

I came to the very same conclusion.
He's really nice to have in the mirror, but additional removal will also do it. Plus, in general the monocolored deck is favored in the mirror.
He's also not too good against E-Plague (at least not as a 1-of).
Right now I can't think of more reason that justify him in MD.

[ScatmanX]

I came to the very same conclusion.
He's really nice to have in the mirror, but additional removal will also do it. Plus, in general the monocolored deck is favored in the mirror.
He's also not too good against E-Plague (at least not as a 1-of).
Right now I can't think of more reason that justify him in MD.
Mine has became a 4th Lightning Bolt last week.
But I also did some other changes I'll test some more before posting here.

[Tom T]

I came to the very same conclusion.
He's really nice to have in the mirror, but additional removal will also do it. Plus, in general the monocolored deck is favored in the mirror.
He's also not too good against E-Plague (at least not as a 1-of).
Right now I can't think of more reason that justify him in MD.

Glad I'm not the only one with this idea.
If we use a 1 or 2-drop we lower the mana-curve, which I always tried in this deck. I thought of a couple of cards:
- 4th Gempalm Incinerator
- 2nd Skirk Prospector

Or possibly:
- 4th Mogg War Marshall
- 4th Lightning Bolt
- 2nd Sharpshooter
- 23rd Land
- Tuktuk Scrapper
- Suggestions?

[GoboLord]

Glad I'm not the only one with this idea.
If we use a 1 or 2-drop we lower the mana-curve, which I always tried in this deck. I thought of a couple of cards:
- 4th Gempalm Incinerator
- 2nd Skirk Prospector

Or possibly:
- 4th Mogg War Marshall
- 4th Lightning Bolt
- 2nd Sharpshooter
- 23rd Land
- Tuktuk Scrapper
- Suggestions?

I've always been advocating to rn as much removal as possible, but this can also be a question of the metagame. In NL I'd suggest to prepare for aggro and therefore run more removal.
Lately my Rishadan Ports started to annoy me. Therefore I was considering to add another land.
2nd Sharpshooter is too much I guess, cause it doesn't help us with our straightforward aggro plan (he's 1/1 for 3 mana and virtually never attacks).
Tuktuk (or artifact hat in general) s not needed in MD against most decks. 4 mana is too much here.

[Talanos]

I agre
e Piledrivers aren't that good in the Zoo-matchup, though I still want 1 or 2 maindeck to get them with Matron for the win.
MWM saves the day against Zoo. Everytime I play him against Zoo the opponent sighs. He is such a pain in the butt against them. I would rather side out Siege-Gangs (for being a bit slow) than MWM's.

Furthermore, I'm thinking of removing my Goblin Chieftain from the main-deck. He's the worst goblin in the deck, I think. I'd replace him with a fourth Gempalm Incinerator.

Yeah, I usually leave in 1 piledriver too. Actually, I generally leave in at least 1 of any "core" goblin when siding. I usually feel that if it was good enough to be in the main deck in the first place, it's worth having as a tutor target even if you don't predict it will be helpful in the matchup. If I need to take out more than just 3 drivers, it'll usually be a lackey or two. (Or, until recently, the chieftan. More on that below.)

When I said that I side out MWM, I was referring to the Merfolk matchup actually, not Zoo. Green creatures and the mirror are the main reasons why I keep MWM in the deck in the first place.

I tend not to take out incinerators against Zoo, even if it can sometimes be impacted by their removal. The main reason is lavamancer. That guy is so bad for us that I want to ensure I can reliably remove it. Getting range on the bigger creatures is gravy. Also, incinerating a lynx on your turn is generally pretty reliable.

I agree with the consensus on chieftan as well. I find I'm siding him out almost all the time, and I never tutor for it. And 1 chieftan, as stated, really doesn't do anything against double-plague, which is the real danger.

I agree with Gobo on the 23rd land. I've been running with that recently to good success. You can side it out on the draw, too, if you want. It's far more annoying to be shy your third/fourth land than it is to be forced to find something to do with an extra sixth or seventh. Also helps with getting 2 red more consistently. I think its' better to have 23 lands and 4 ports than 22 and 3, which is what I'd probably do if I didn't have the extra land.

Circling back to boartusk liege, since we're on the topic of lords (of the non-Gobo variety). I know there was discussion a few pages back about how he's not that good against plague, but my one loss at the last tournament was to landstill with double plague down. I mean, are we just supposed to concede against this or blindly assume we're going to win faster? Granted, he had a great opening with force for vial, plow for lackey, and turn 3 standstill, but you can't just bank on your opponent not having answers. I know they can answer liege too, but at least I would have had something to go matron for and at least attempt to recover instead of scooping if I were running a pair of lieges.

[Vandalize]

I was thinking the same thing about Goblin Chieftain: He's always sided out. And definetly the weakest goblin in the deck.

I replaced his spot with a second Skirk Prospector, which has been working wonders... Another 1-drop is awsome, and it powers up the Skirk Shooter tech (with only 1 skirk, you need to matron for him, usually).

My sideboard has been showing some good results. And as I said in my previous post, those Staxx/Prison decks are back with a lot of strenght, and they're pretty much annoying, but can be easily beaten with a SGC or Sharpshooter.

I don't know about the Double E.Plague topic. It's really rare to see a double plague in play. I don't think Boartusk Liege has space in my sideboard.

This is what I've been using:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Shattering Spree
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Anarchy
1x Lightning Crafter

That single Anarchy might be a little random. That couldn't be further than the truth, but I feel at least a little safe against Enchantress by having one of those in sideboard.

[They Call Me Flez]

How's it going, Goblin Warchiefs? I'm a first-time poster with some interesting ideas, and wanted to get the opinions of veteran "Mountain-Lackey-Go" players.

I've never been one to take "stock lists" to tournaments, and I have some renown in my play area [metro-Boston] for adding innovative technologies onto existing decks, or building decks from scratch that see tournament success. I've top-8ed two PTQs with such behavior, including making it to the finals of one.

I intro with this not to brag, but to show you that I'm not some random noob who didn't put any though into his arguments.

On to my ideas.

I was pondering the contents of all of the most popular Goblins lists I saw [the black-splash version for Warren Weirding, the monored version that most of you have discussed in the newest few pages of this thread, etc.], and after some admittedly limited testing, I believe my list is beginning to mold itself into something that shores up most, if not all, of Goblins' bad matchups. Instead of taking several months to figure it out on my own, as per my norm, I figured to take the plunge and risk getting laughed at by the veterans. :P

Here's the list I'm testing:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 AEther Vial
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Nameless Inversion
2 Crib Swap

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Mountain
3 Plateau
3 Badlands

SB:

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Extirpate
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Perish
2 Warren Weirding

I've reduced some of the aggro in favor of more maindeck removal. Nameless Inversion replaces Bolt because, while I like Bolt better for cheapness and late-game reach, being able to tutor/RL into removal has been very clutch in any creature-heavy MU. Crib Swap is really useful for dealing with pesky Tarmogoyfs and KotRs before [big IF] I have enough Goblins to Gempalm them away. Warren Weirdings step in to combat Emrakul and Progenitus.

Basilisk Collar is boarded in against any aggro/Burn deck, and being able to one-sided Wrath with Sharpshooter is definitely cool. My graveyard hate from the sideboard is obviously MU based - Ravenous Trap after my Dredge opponent Breakthroughs for 0 is a wonderful feeling. Extirpate can nix either Dread Return targets or Vengevines, and the Vengevival deck is quite populer in my area [and, oh yeah, the world]. Enlightened Tutor can get the Collar, my Oh Ring [for Emrakul, Jitte, Survival, other problem permanents], or either piece of combo hate. I'm playing one Canonist and one Pillar because sometimes having one or the other specifically is game-changing depending on the MU, I've found. Perish gives me extra hate against Zoo, which I theorize I'll need since the Sharpshooter/Collar combo is very unreliable against such a removal-heavy opponent.

In a larger tournament where I expect to see people boarding in E.Plagues, I have 2 or 3 Echoing Calms at the ready. Oh Ring can deal with one, but that'll likely not be enough.

I look forward to your reviews and advice! Thanks in advance.

[jrw1985]

How's it going, Goblin Warchiefs? I'm a first-time poster with some interesting ideas, and wanted to get the opinions of veteran "Mountain-Lackey-Go" players.

I've never been one to take "stock lists" to tournaments, and I have some renown in my play area [metro-Boston] for adding innovative technologies onto existing decks, or building decks from scratch that see tournament success. I've top-8ed two PTQs with such behavior, including making it to the finals of one.

I intro with this not to brag, but to show you that I'm not some random noob who didn't put any though into his arguments.

On to my ideas.

I was pondering the contents of all of the most popular Goblins lists I saw [the black-splash version for Warren Weirding, the monored version that most of you have discussed in the newest few pages of this thread, etc.], and after some admittedly limited testing, I believe my list is beginning to mold itself into something that shores up most, if not all, of Goblins' bad matchups. Instead of taking several months to figure it out on my own, as per my norm, I figured to take the plunge and risk getting laughed at by the veterans. :P

Here's the list I'm testing:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 AEther Vial
3 Gemplam Incinerator
3 Nameless Inversion
2 Crib Swap

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Mountain
3 Plateau
3 Badlands

SB:

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Extirpate
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Perish
2 Warren Weirding

I've reduced some of the aggro in favor of more maindeck removal. Nameless Inversion replaces Bolt because, while I like Bolt better for cheapness and late-game reach, being able to tutor/RL into removal has been very clutch in any creature-heavy MU. Crib Swap is really useful for dealing with pesky Tarmogoyfs and KotRs before [big IF] I have enough Goblins to Gempalm them away. Warren Weirdings step in to combat Emrakul and Progenitus.

Basilisk Collar is boarded in against any aggro/Burn deck, and being able to one-sided Wrath with Sharpshooter is definitely cool. My graveyard hate from the sideboard is obviously MU based - Ravenous Trap after my Dredge opponent Breakthroughs for 0 is a wonderful feeling. Extirpate can nix either Dread Return targets or Vengevines, and the Vengevival deck is quite populer in my area [and, oh yeah, the world]. Enlightened Tutor can get the Collar, my Oh Ring [for Emrakul, Jitte, Survival, other problem permanents], or either piece of combo hate. I'm playing one Canonist and one Pillar because sometimes having one or the other specifically is game-changing depending on the MU, I've found. Perish gives me extra hate against Zoo, which I theorize I'll need since the Sharpshooter/Collar combo is very unreliable against such a removal-heavy opponent.

In a larger tournament where I expect to see people boarding in E.Plagues, I have 2 or 3 Echoing Calms at the ready. Oh Ring can deal with one, but that'll likely not be enough.

I look forward to your reviews and advice! Thanks in advance.

First things first, I must congratulate you on trying to think outside the box and innovate something new and different in an archetype as homogenous as Goblins. I really like your inclusion of Nameless Inversion and Crib Swap MD. Too bad Wizards never printed a Changeling card for Artifact/Enchantment/Graveyard hate. Goblins players the world over would give their eye-teeth for that reliability. I believe you'll find you want at least 1 Warren Weirding MD too, as it can take care of Progenitus and Emrakul. I also like the E Tutor SB that can help you grab Basilisk Collar toolbox pieces. Your O Ring could also be Pithing Needle if you want to be a little bit quicker, and Pillar/Cannonist could be Chalice of the Void for the same speed factor. Best of luck with the list. Many people on this forum would be interested in hearing how it works out for you.

[Vandalize]

They Call Me Flez, nice main deck. Altought I think you should cut one Plateau and add 1 more Rishadan Port. The additional removal seems to be a little underpowered (nameless inversion can only hit creatures), and Crib Swap seems too slow for me. BUT, they can be tutored, which is in fact, really good. I'd like to hear abour your matchups against Zoo and T.E.S.

Your sideboard is a mess, in my opinion. Try to stick to 4 - 6 cards in your sideboard, and make them as three of or four of... Having one of each card means you'll hardly ever draw it (unless they have almost the same effect).

I'd make your sideboard like this:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Perish
3x Tormod's Crypt (or ravenous traps)
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Warren Weirding

Chalice of the Void @1 almost shuts down Burn decks (hmm, Bolts, Chain Lightning, Mogg Fanatic, Grim Lavamancer at least).
Ethersworn Canonist is bad, since goblins often cast one or two goblins per turn. About Extirpate, well, I don't personally like it, but it's, indeed, a very useful card. There's also no need for the second Sharpshooter imo.

If you want to stick the 1x cards. Make your Enlightned Tutor in three or four pieces in your sideboard.

Well, I don't know if I'm right or wrong. But Goblin players shouldn't leave home without Pyrokinesis and Chalice of the Void. About the Sharpshooter with Basilisk, it's fun in theory, but not likely to happen (unless you're playing against merfolks, lol).

I'd love to hear about your progress with this list.

[They Call Me Flez]

First things first, I must congratulate you on trying to think outside the box and innovate something new and different in an archetype as homogenous as Goblins. I really like your inclusion of Nameless Inversion and Crib Swap MD. Too bad Wizards never printed a Changeling card for Artifact/Enchantment/Graveyard hate. Goblins players the world over would give their eye-teeth for that reliability. I believe you'll find you want at least 1 Warren Weirding MD too, as it can take care of Progenitus and Emrakul. I also like the E Tutor SB that can help you grab Basilisk Collar toolbox pieces. Your O Ring could also be Pithing Needle if you want to be a little bit quicker, and Pillar/Cannonist could be Chalice of the Void for the same speed factor. Best of luck with the list. Many people on this forum would be interested in hearing how it works out for you.

Thanks for the compliments and the input, I completely forgot about the ability of Chalice @ 0 to stop Storm copies when I typed up this list. I'd rather have Oh Ring, personally, as it's another weapon against Emrakul and Engineered Plague.

The issue with playing Crib Swap and Warren Weirding next to each other is the brutal anti-synergy; casting Crib Swap at all means Warren Weirding is null and void, as they now have a dinky 1/1 to sac, and it gives them two 1/1s in return! Less than optimal. Of course, this is the worst-case scenario as the token could die first in a multitude of ways, but the point remains.

Vandalize, your candidness is very appreciated! I've yet to play Pyrokinesis, but I'm sure it's wonderful - the issue is where to fit it. I respectfully disagree that my sideboard is a mess - I actually carefully scultped it over the course of several hours of MU analyzation. It's certainly not perfect, but please allow me to explain my theories.

Step 1 - Anti-Dredge tech

In order to dodge Dredge's [and other similar decks'] anti-hate cards, I have a mix of the popular graveyard hate spells. Having one-ofs of each helps me dance around Cabal Therapy, and having a mix of permanents and spells fights Chain of Vapor. Also, I suspect most Dredge players won't suspect me casting Enlightened Tutor grabbing Tormod's Crypt in response to Therapy/Unmask. Additionally, Extirpate is personally one of my favorite hate cards, and is also very good against Vengevival decks.

Step 2 - Toolbox

With two Enlightened Tutors, I effectively have "three" copies of every other one-of in the sideboard, save Sharpshooter [which I already can tutor for]. Running my board like this gives me more outs to more situations, as each card is useful against multiple matchups. Basilisk Collar is a fine spell to combat what little Burn I expect to see, and Oh Ring has many uses. I definitely agree about Chalice of the Void, though - the Pillar and Canonist are going to be replaced by a Chalice and a third Tutor, or possibly two Chalices. Or...maybe a Chalice and a Pithing Needle.

Step 3 - Sealing the deal against Zoo

The two Perishes are present because I expect Zoo to be popular [as always, right?], and it's also pretty useful against Vengevival. I've only played a few matches against two similar-yet-different Zoo builds, and from what I can tell, my maindeck definitely helps but often isn't enough if they play 1st game 1. Perish puts the odds way more in my favor - theoretically, of course. Before I can say for certain, I need to play many more games. The second Sharpshooter comes in because the Sharpshooter/Collar combo is easily disruptable, so having an additional Wrath seems necessary. Again, much more testing is needed to reach a conclusion, but this is my standpoint thus far.

I look forward to sharing the results of my testing, which starts in a few days!

[GoboLord]

@ They Call Me Flez

First of all: I have always been curious and open to new (some call it "strange") ideas for Goblins - I can tell you; I even played Survival of the Fittest, just because I saw those Goblins being drawn on it and Squee being a Goblin as a "sign".
Anyways,

Your ideboard tech surely has it's arguments. But...I doubt that this flexibility component you added makes this deck really better than it already is.
There are some weaknesses:

1. Being 3colored makes you much more vulnarable to Wastelands. It's rather easy to shut you W sources off, thus important spells like E-Tutor and Crib Swamp become useless

2. Relying of that "tribal" thing makes your opps Goyfs grow even faster. I know this doesn't seem to be much of an issue, but from my experiences with Nameless Inversion (which I introduced here like 6 months ago) "Tribal" makes the difference sometimes.

3. If you played the "standart" Goblin lists, it may be hard to addopt those changes you made. Therefore this deck may ask a lot of you as a player. This changes might only be usefull if they add power to the deck...this however is a topic I like to hear more about after your testing.

Now some constructive comments. As I said: I really like testing crazy things. Here is what I'd try in your list:

* Mirror Entity - I tried it in a lost along woth 10 other Lords, I liked it. STill it's very controllish.
* Frogtosser Banneret instead of Goblin Warchief - since your deck doesn't seem to heavily rely on Haste
* Infiltration Lens - I don't know how you like this one, I never tested it. SInce you are in the middle of the testing phase you might give it a try and let us know how you found it.
* Serenity - another target for E.Tutor.

[They Call Me Flez]

@ They Call Me Flez

First of all: I have always been curious and open to new (some call it "strange") ideas for Goblins - I can tell you; I even played Survival of the Fittest, just because I saw those Goblins being drawn on it and Squee being a Goblin as a "sign".
Anyways,

Your ideboard tech surely has it's arguments. But...I doubt that this flexibility component you added makes this deck really better than it already is.
There are some weaknesses:

1. Being 3colored makes you much more vulnarable to Wastelands. It's rather easy to shut you W sources off, thus important spells like E-Tutor and Crib Swamp become useless

2. Relying of that "tribal" thing makes your opps Goyfs grow even faster. I know this doesn't seem to be much of an issue, but from my experiences with Nameless Inversion (which I introduced here like 6 months ago) "Tribal" makes the difference sometimes.

3. If you played the "standart" Goblin lists, it may be hard to addopt those changes you made. Therefore this deck may ask a lot of you as a player. This changes might only be usefull if they add power to the deck...this however is a topic I like to hear more about after your testing.

Now some constructive comments. As I said: I really like testing crazy things. Here is what I'd try in your list:

* Mirror Entity - I tried it in a lost along woth 10 other Lords, I liked it. STill it's very controllish.
* Frogtosser Banneret instead of Goblin Warchief - since your deck doesn't seem to heavily rely on Haste
* Infiltration Lens - I don't know how you like this one, I never tested it. SInce you are in the middle of the testing phase you might give it a try and let us know how you found it.
* Serenity - another target for E.Tutor.

Thanks for the input! I believe that some of the issues here can be resolved via an argument based on play style. My favorite deck type is midrange; or, I guess in Legacy-speak, aggro-control. I prefer playing decks that don't lose as opposed to decks that win, if that makes sense. I kept the Goblins core frame because of how powerful it is [creatures that supply card advantage are my favorite spells], but exploding out of the gates isn't something I plan to do with any deck except Burn. Goblins is a deck based on attrition and tempo; I've just leaned it over to the "control" side of "aggro-control."

I absolutely agree that my manabase is weaker against Wasteland, but that's why I play three of each Dual. I'm also running so many fetches to help dodge Wasteland, with the idea being I won't need to fetch up a Badlands or Plateau until I'm going to cast a spell requiring that type of mana. In the maindeck, there are only three black spells and two white spells, so game 1 will rarely be an issue.

I forgot about the Tribal interaction with 'goyfs - thanks for pointing that out! I'll be sure to keep an eye out for that. I plan to keep testing the Tribal spells unless too many huge 'goyfs scare me away, but that's the reasoning behind Crib Swap and Perish in the first place.

I theorize that every deck is difficult to play properly, and I'm always a fan of a challenge. :) As I mentioned before, I never take stock lists to tournaments - it irks me to netdeck, personally. Building a deck from scratch [or adjusting a core list so heavily] gives you a unique understanding of it as a player, so I feel that I just need some more practice to overcome that hurdle.

As for the cards to test:

Mirror Entity = I tried it for a short time, and I'm still on the fence. In certain situations, it's very good. Others, it's terrible. I never want to draw it over the course of a game and I can more often than not kill my opponent before the pumps would be useful, but I don't want to count it out just yet. Maybe a 1-of in the SB to tutor up in creature-heavy removal-light matchups?

Banneret = Great idea! I'll try this guy out and see if I miss the haste-granting. Odds are I will, but this is what tesing is about, yeah? The major issue I foresee with this is that I'll be fetching up Badlands much more often, which would essentially null my previous argument about trying to dodge Wastelands.

Infiltration Lens = I'm definitely going to give this one a shot. I may find that I have enough card advantage with Matron and Ringleader, but I'm excited to see how turn-one Lackey, turn -two play-and-equip goes. Zoo will still kill it, but other creature decks might be frownyface. We'll see.

Serenity = Good idea. I'll try it at a future juncture, if I deem that my current sideboard isn't enough to deal with the meta I expect to face. I'll have a couple at hand, for sure, and if I see any Enchantress players or peeps with Engineered Plague, I'm in the money.

[bakofried]

I'm fairly certain Chalice@0 doesn't stop Storm copies. Unless I missed a statement somewhere.

At any rate, let me know how testing goes.

[jrw1985]

I'm fairly certain Chalice@0 doesn't stop Storm copies. Unless I missed a statement somewhere.

At any rate, let me know how testing goes.

You're right. It doesn't stop storm copies. I think he meant that it keeps down the storm count.

[They Call Me Flez]

To be honest, I thought it actually stopped the copies themselves, but after looking it up, I saw how foolish I was! Chalice @ 0 still helps, as does the new addition in place of Canonist; Thorn of Amethyst.

On that same note, does that mean that Pyrostatic Pillar won't Shock my opponent for each Storm copy?

[Vandalize]

On that same note, does that mean that Pyrostatic Pillar won't Shock my opponent for each Storm copy?

Yeah, it will Shock, but it's not really effective. If they resolve an Ad Nauseam at 15 or more life, they usually manage to win. And T.E.S. can just bounce Pyrostatic Pillar so easily :/

Perhaps, the only ways to slow them down (well, we can't stop them without counterbalance, lol) is to resolve a Chalice @1, or getting a Thorn of Amethyst online as soon as possible.

[jrw1985]

Yeah, it will Shock, but it's not really effective. If they resolve an Ad Nauseam at 15 or more life, they usually manage to win. And T.E.S. can just bounce Pyrostatic Pillar so easily :/

Perhaps, the only ways to slow them down (well, we can't stop them without counterbalance, lol) is to resolve a Chalice @1, or getting a Thorn of Amethyst online as soon as possible.

No, it won't shock for storm copies-

Oracle Text: Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost 3 or less, Pyrostatic Pillar deals 2 damage to that player.

[Tacosnape]

I'm glad people are finally realizing Goblin Chieftain is the weak link in the deck, since I've been calling this since very shortly after the card was printed. Maybe people will realize how nuts Instigator is next.

There's not really a -right- card to run if you want to beat TES. It's more related to the number of hate spots you pack for it. If you really want to beat TES, you're going to need 6-7 spots dedicated to it in board (Mindbreak Trap and Chalice are my recommendations), or pack a few cards with minimal splash hate application, like a combination of Mindbreak Trap and Shattering Spree/Meltdown, the former to keep them from being too out of control too fast, and the latter to punish them for trying to pull off an Ad Nauseum with only two spells by dropping artifacts out.

The theory of running 3-4 anti-combo spots is that basically you're hoping to get lucky. Either you get your hate and it gets you there games 2 and 3, or you win the die roll, drop a Lackey, they maybe mulled to 6 and need a turn or two to set up, and you've got Wastelands galore.

Or you could always just completely ignore TES, take your bad matchups like a champ, and spend those 6-7 spots on loading up to deal with other problems.

[GoboLord]

I'm glad people are finally realizing Goblin Chieftain is the weak link in the deck, since I've been calling this since very shortly after the card was printed. Maybe people will realize how nuts Instigator is next.

There's not really a -right- card to run if you want to beat TES. It's more related to the number of hate spots you pack for it. If you really want to beat TES, you're going to need 6-7 spots dedicated to it in board (Mindbreak Trap and Chalice are my recommendations), or pack a few cards with minimal splash hate application, like a combination of Mindbreak Trap and Shattering Spree/Meltdown, the former to keep them from being too out of control too fast, and the latter to punish them for trying to pull off an Ad Nauseum with only two spells by dropping artifacts out.

The theory of running 3-4 anti-combo spots is that basically you're hoping to get lucky. Either you get your hate and it gets you there games 2 and 3, or you win the die roll, drop a Lackey, they maybe mulled to 6 and need a turn or two to set up, and you've got Wastelands galore.

Or you could always just completely ignore TES, take your bad matchups like a champ, and spend those 6-7 spots on loading up to deal with other problems.

Goblin Chieftain isn't a bad card after all. And as far as I know we just came to the conclusion that he is the worst card in Tom T's list (which is very similar to mine). e.g. in a meta that's very controlish I'd pack more of those instead of Mogg War Marshal.

I agree with you that 6-7 slots should be dedicated to combo if you want to reliably beat them.
But I find 4 SB slots perfectly alright when you are running a package of Wasteland AND Ports (both of which are very effective against combo). In my meta (western Germany) they really like combo, thus DDANT, TES and ANT are frequently played. Nevertheless I managed to lose only 3 matches to combo in the whole year while I never had more than my precious 4 Chalice in board to hate them. Seriously: Wasteland and Ports are very effective against them.

[Tom T]

I'm glad people are finally realizing Goblin Chieftain is the weak link in the deck, since I've been calling this since very shortly after the card was printed. Maybe people will realize how nuts Instigator is next.


In the Netherlands goblin-decks are quite common and it seems a lot of people play 4 Warren Instigator. This card is most likely already discussed, but I wonder what the conclusion of that discussion was. Sure, I have an oppinion but I think you guys have already found out the conclusion of that topic.

I'm glad Goblins has only a few slots to doubt. I think this gives a more relaxed feeling when playing the deck. For instance, each time I play Landstill I wonder how the deck could be better and if I'm running the optimal list.
This lack of doubt gives you more confidence in the deck and I think it contributes to your results.

[ricowaits]

my Oh Ring for Emrakul


Ring doesn't work as Emrakul has protection from coloured spells which includes aura's. If your looking to deal with that your going to be looking at Tariff ( 1W) or any of the "Edicts" (1B)

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Ring doesn't work as Emrakul has protection from coloured spells which includes aura's. If your looking to deal with that your going to be looking at Tariff ( 1W) or any of the "Edicts" (1B)

This isn't correct.

Oblivion Ring doesn't target Emrakul as a spell. Its come into play ability triggers when it enters the battlefield. The 'ability' targets Emrakul.

The same is true for Journey to Nowhere.

[ricowaits]

This isn't correct.

Oblivion Ring doesn't target Emrakul as a spell. Its come into play ability triggers when it enters the battlefield. The 'ability' targets Emrakul.

The same is true for Journey to Nowhere.

Good to know. It appears I was misinformed a couple of months ago that Journey/Ring would not be able to target Emrakul.

[ScatmanX]

Good to know. It appears I was misinformed a couple of months ago that Journey/Ring would not be able to target Emrakul.
The most important thing for us is that Stingscourger can target him.

[antonbystedt]

I do not agree with Goblins Chieftain being the weakest goblin, i really like him and he's a really nice tutor target that have won me games.

And i've run 4off Warren Instigator in my previous decklist, without ports and with 4 Bolts, a more aggressive list with other words.
The card itself is reaaaaally good, but it is not good with 8 colorless lands imo.

[Sims]

I do not agree with Goblins Chieftain being the weakest goblin, i really like him and he's a really nice tutor target that have won me games.

And i've run 4off Warren Instigator in my previous decklist, without ports and with 4 Bolts, a more aggressive list with other words.
The card itself is reaaaaally good, but it is not good with 8 colorless lands imo.

I ran 3 in a list that only ran 6 colorless lands (4 waste 2 port) and it was awesome. I also dig chieftain, I actually was running more chieftains than most people here bouncing between 3 and 4. But he's a card i feel you need more than 1 of to benefit from... As a tutor target for countering a single plague he's meh.. With multiples the lord bonus helps, the haste is never unwelcome, and with instigators he becomes nuts. It's fun running a 2/2 or 3/3 instigator into blockers... the look on your opponents face is priceless when he can't decide if he wants to lose his goyf, or let you have 2 free goblins.

[Amon Amarth]

I've had mixed results with Chieftain and Instigator. I may test them in the future again but I'm happy with the build I'm running and don't really feel like I need a lord. I don't think I can run Instigator with 8 Wastes/Ports; it has lead to some awkward hands.

[Tacosnape]

I think this is why people misinterpret Warren Instigator. It's not always an aggressive card like Goblin Lackey. It's actually a defensive card in a ton of matchups. It will keep your faster opponents from swinging as quickly, while you work towards your lategame edge. And if they don't slow down, you get a ton of chances to punish them. It can be bait for removal that would hit your Chief, or it can benefit from Lackey being bait for it. It's a fantastically dangerous Aether Vial trick, especially when you also run Stingscourger. And connecting with one if you have a Matron or Ringleader in your hand is absolutely crushing.

And yes, I've said from the beginning you can't run him with Port.

[Zörg]

Why cant you play him with 4 ports?
We play 4 warchiefs and they too need 2 mountains to play?
And what is your opinion on running both Instigators and sharpshooter+prospector, can it be done and should it be done?

Here is my current list, and i am thinking about making it more aggressive, but i am still thinking about how. Any help and ideas?

CREATURES (31)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

INSTANTS (3)
3 Lightning Bolt

ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Aether Vial

LANDS (22)
14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Boartusk Liege
2 Blood Moon
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Stingscourger
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vexing Shusher

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Other than a few questionable sideboard cards, which are probably meta-related, the deck looks pretty standard. Not really much to change.

[Zörg]

Yea, i pretty much copy pasted and changed a few slots. But if i want to squeeze in a few instigators, what do i take out?

Instigators would change the theme from defensive to agressive i'd say.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'd probably go with:

-3 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Skirk Prospector
-1 Goblin Chieftain

+4 Warren Instigator
+1 Siege-Gang Commander

If you run Warren Instigator, always run the third Siege-Gang Commander.

[bakofried]

I would say Warchief and Instigator take different places on the curve, and that's why you don't want as many (if any) copies of Port in a deck with him.

Taco, could we see your current list? I'd love to take it for a spin. I'm assuming it's Rb?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

It's probably close to this. Tacosnape's list hasn't change much, I think.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

[GoboLord]

Hey fellow Warchiefs,

I had a tourney today; tested Warren Instigator; ended up 3rd with 5-1-0

I don't want to give a report, but focus on the performance on Warren Instigator. I took him with me as a 4-off because I wanted to have an oppinion on him that is based on experience. Right now, I'm very tired so I'll write about it tomorow. Here are my results for now:

R1 - 4c Countertop: 2-1
R2 - Raffinity: 2-0
R3 - High Tide Combo (I guess it's called 'Solidarity' or 'Springtide', don't know the difference, maybe s.o. can explain?): 2-0
R4 - Zoo: 2-0
R5 - Dredge: 1-2
R6 - Ugbw Threshold: 2-0

[Vandalize]

Sup, Horde...

I'm still playing the same Mono-Red instigatorless, chieftainless list (with two Skirk Prospector). Warren Instigator adds a lot of speed, but I love my MWM, and I don't think I can leave them behind :(

Chalice of the Void has been proven to be the best card in sideboard.

Chalice @1 is really nice against Zoo (uh, ok, they can be destroyed by a Qasali Pridemage, but Zoo usually runs 2 or 3) because it can just counter every removal they have: Grim Lavamancer, Lighting Bolt, Chain Lightning, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, and trouble creatures like Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion and Noble Hierarch.

My new sideboarding against Zoo looks like this:

-4 AEther Vial
-1 Lightning Bolt
-1 Skirk Prospector
-1 Goblin Piledriver
+4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Pyrokinesis

And my sideboard still looks the same:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Anarchy
2 Shattering Spree
1 TukTuk Scrapper

Like GoboLord, I've been having a little trouble with Dredge (If I don't find an early Tormod's, I'm usually dead by turn 3). Perhaps, I should drop one Skirk Prospector and add a Stingscourger to bounce/block that weirdo 12/12 Golgari Grave-Troll.

You guys, who're testing Warren Instigator to its maximum power, is Zoo still hard to beat? The lack of MWM seems to weaken the deck against this matchup.

[ScatmanX]

Back from a tournament too. Report tomorrow I guess...

0-2 against Lands
2-0 against ProBant
2-0 against Zoo
2-0 against UbFolk
2-1 against UFolk
0-2 against Junk
2-0 against Elves

total 4-2 (10-5).
Completly loved the deck and sibedoard.
Tested Instigators again too, and they were awesome.
There's no need for MWM too beat Zoo, so no need for him in the MD imo.

[Ahumana]

Instigator is too slow in my humble opinion

Chieftain is mediocre... i think his best use is to combat engineered plague... which goblin decks frequently encounter

as a result... i run 2 chieftain

also... i am not too big of a fan of fanatic... he is alright in an opening but is only really against roughly 25% of decks in legacy... not worth it

my build:

1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gelmpalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Stingscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector

1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gelmpalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Stingscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector

4 Aether Vial

1 Warren Weirding

2 Arid Mesa
4 Blood-Stained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

Sidedeck
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tin Street Hooligan

i am very happy with this build apart from the fact that it does not contain a sharpshooter... any advice on what to cut to add one would be appreciated

[jrw1985]

I've had mixed results with Chieftain and Instigator. I may test them in the future again but I'm happy with the build I'm running and don't really feel like I need a lord. I don't think I can run Instigator with 8 Wastes/Ports; it has lead to some awkward hands.

Instigator and Chieftain haven't lead to awkward hands in my experience...
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34739
I was running 3 Chieftains and 2 Instigators AND 3 Ports and 4 Wastes when I placed 4th in Minneapolis (bragging, sorry). They worked fine together for me. This is because I almost always mulled to a 1 drop, which is hugely important in that your Vial or Lackey allows you to play everything else for free. Yes it's sometimes awkward trying to cast Chieftain or Instigator, but that's not the point of the deck! You're not supposed to be casting them, you're supposed to cheat them into play while you use your lands to disrupt and slow down your opponent. If you're keeping hands full of 2 and 3 drops you're doing it wrong. I like Instigator over MWM because MWM just isn't a threat. The way I see it, MWM is just 2 goblins for 2 mana if you're on the offensive. Clearly you're not going to pay the echo cost, so unless you used the MWM as a blocker then it's just 2 goblins for 2 mana. That isn't bad per se, but it isn't very threatening. It's actually a pretty defensive play, which against most of the decks in the field is a mistake. Instigator on the other hand is a very threatening creature that either requires removal or a blocker to negate. If he connects even once it's game over. Instigator also allows you to keep more opening hands, especially if you're on the play. My play style has generally been to pressure my opponent as much as possible, which works perfectly with Instigator. Also, in situations where you're paying for a Tabernacle or attacking through a Propaganda Instigator has obvious advantages over MWM. For the offensive game, having more damage in 1 body is generally advantagous. If they don't have an answer they're screwed. Chieftain I like because the haste and pump are huge. He negates E Plague while being an offensive force. Let's see KGrip do that. Having more 3cc Vial possibilities is strong for the deck, and the pump is amazing with SGC or a dominant board position.


Sup, Horde...

I'm still playing the same Mono-Red instigatorless, chieftainless list (with two Skirk Prospector). Warren Instigator adds a lot of speed, but I love my MWM, and I don't think I can leave them behind :(

...

You guys, who're testing Warren Instigator to its maximum power, is Zoo still hard to beat? The lack of MWM seems to weaken the deck against this matchup.

Goblins don't need MWM (or Perish) to beat Zoo. Just use your goblins intelligently. You know that you can and will outdraw Zoo, so create 1-2 and 1-1 situations. Chieftain is great against Zoo because his pump allows you better exchanges and gives you a hastey speed factor that Zoo can't match. Pyrokinesis allows you to spread damage around and makes for big swings. Against Zoo (as against most decks) having a 1 drop is crucial. Vial is generally better than Lackey, but Lackey allows trickier play. If they don't flat out burn Lackey, and instead drop a Nacatl, you have the opportunity to Weirding or Stingscourger it away and get a free goblin cheated in. Also, if they're sitting on a 2/2 Nacatl with a Taiga in play you can attack into the cat with your Lackey, then Waste their dual after damage to kill the cat (as it becomes a 1/1 with 1 damage on it). I see no point in keeping a Lackey around that can't get damage through, so you might as well try to trade with it. If you can't trade with it don't use it to block until your life total is dropping to under 10. Eat the first 10 damage while building a horde. Zoo can burn you out if you drop under 10 life, but above 10 you'll be OK. This is good to know when your opponent casts burn on your goblins instead of you, because it lets you know what's in their hand. Case in point- I was playing against a very skilled Zoo player once, and the game was going deep. I finally had developed a superior board position, but at this point was down to 4 life. I wanted to give up, since I knew it was only going to take 1 Pyroblast to kill me, or any 2 other burn spells, but I told myself to play it like I might win it. When I sent my Lackey through an open board my opponent tossed back his head and sighed, then Bolted my Lackey. I was thrilled because I now knew that he could only draw into a Pyroblast to burn me out, and that I would win if I could dodge that for another few turns. And I did, winning the match. So keep your life total out of burn range. Build up at least 3 goblins on your side so you can start Gempalming Cats away. Better yet, use Gempalm when you block. Since Gempalm replaces itself you are getting a 1-1 trade. Since we can draw cards and they can't this situation will work out for us in the long run. I generally try not to Waste their lands unless they've missed a land drop and I can keep them off 2 or 3 lands. Zoo runs on such a low curve that it can overcome Wastelands pretty easily otherwise. Play out your hand as quickly as possible. 95% of the time when you Matron you'll want it to be for Ringleader to refill your hand. Don't allow them to get Lavamancer online. Do what you can to negate Jitte by bouncing or burning the equipped creature, or blocking and sacking your goblin to Skirk Prospector before damage so Jitte gets no counters. Once you've gained board position THAT"S when you start sending through attackers.



Tested Instigators again too, and they were awesome.
There's no need for MWM too beat Zoo, so no need for him in the MD imo.

+1

[jrw1985]

Survival's out as of 1/1/11.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/122k
Goodbye Extirpate.
Hello Tormod's Crypt.

[Mantis]

Survival's out as of 1/1/11.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/122k
Goodbye Extirpate.
Hello Tormod's Crypt.
Vengevine still exsist in conjunction with Intuition. Extirpate totally demolishes them, Tormod's Crypt does squat.

[markbris]

Vengevine still exsist in conjunction with Intuition. Extirpate totally demolishes them, Tormod's Crypt does squat.

Don't they intuition to get 3 vengevines then you crypt two of em?

[GoboLord]

Hey folks,

I want to discuss Warren Instigator for a while here.
I had a tournament yesterday and took 4 Warren Instigator with me because I wanted to have an oppinion on this card that's based on experience. Before I begin to talk about what my subjective oppinion is, I want to list some facts first.

Here's my list:

//Lands [23]
7 Wasteland/Ports
6 Fetchlands
2 Taiga
8 Mountain

// Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC

// Others [ 7+ 4]
3 L. Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

4 Warren instigator

//Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline otV
4 Chalice otV
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Nature's Claim


* You don't keep hands just because of WI when you don't have a first-turn-drop
* WI is good against combo
* WI oftentimes doesn't connect because of removal/counters
* WI is not an offensive card
* WI doesn’t add speed to your deck
* WI is absolutely playable along with Wastelands and Rishadan Port if your splash (if any) is very light

Here are my experiences with it:

R1 - 4c Countertop
In G1 it ran into Spell Snare and Swords to Plowshares
In G2 it was not necessary because I had it when my hand was empty
Didn't draw it in G3

R2 - Raffinity
In G1 my opponent want for an all-in attack with 4 creatures because he just didn't get what WI was doing. On the next turn WI brought me Ringleader into SGC.
In G2 my opponent took care of my WI. So I guess WI was one of my creatures (along with Lackey and Piledriver) that pushed him into defense

R3 - Solidarity
In G1 my Lackey got countered, so it was WI who made it here.
Same goes for G2, only that he brought only one creature into play.

R4 – Zoo
Didn’t have WI in G1.
In G2 he just ate removals.

R5 – Dredge
Didn’t have WI in G1,2 and 3.

R6 – Ugbw Thresh
In G1 he scared a Nimble Mongoose. So it prevented one hit (1 damage).
In G2 he ran into Spell Snare and Swords to Plowshares

Testsession today

Canadian Thresh 7 games
In several games he was able to stall a lonely Mongoose over 1-2 turns. My opponent complained a lot about WI; he found him very disturbing.

The Rock 12 games
WI ran into lots of Swords to Plowshares and Vindicates. It didn’t connect in 12 out of 12 games.


Conclusion:
I never boarded WI out. It always appeared to be a threat to my opponent although I tested it in very diverse MUs (control, agro and combo). Looking at those results above he connected 3 times in 26 games, which is very low.
I guess WI has two functions in the deck:
(1) He is awesome in MU where creatures and removal don’t stand in his way (obviously). There he’s aggressive.
(2) He is good in MU where you might want to buy time and stall your opponents (huge) creatures a bit (like Zoo, Thresh and Rock). Here he’s a defensive card.
@ MWM vs. WI discussion: I think WI is equal if not better in stalling you opponents creatures because he forces them to leave (more) blockers behind. On the other hand WI doesn’t create cardadvantage: it takes only one blow (attack/removal) to kill WI where MWM can catch up to 3.

[Pinoy Goblin]

In my personal opinion and further testing Mogwar Marshall is better than Warren Instigator in all aspects because it has synergy with gempahlm, piledriver, siege gang, warchief, sharpshooter and skirk prospector. Yes WI is a threat but with the current meta and with all the creature removals it will not connect and survive most of the time.

[Tacosnape]

In my personal opinion and further testing Mogwar Marshall is better than Warren Instigator in all aspects because it has synergy with gempahlm, piledriver, siege gang, warchief, sharpshooter and skirk prospector. Yes WI is a threat but with the current meta and with all the creature removals it will not connect and survive most of the time.

So your theory is that we should not run good cards for fear of people having answers?

Warren Instigator doesn't hit very often because your opponents will distort their gameplay at nearly all costs to make him not connect. This is a great thing. It forces your opponents to have less to deal with the previous top threats. I've found my Warchiefs stay alive much more often when Instigator draws the STP.

Plus, there's so much benefit you get from being able to pass turn with a Vial at 2 and either force your opponent not to swing out of fear, or catch them sleeping, sneak one in, and connect.

[Pinoy Goblin]

So your theory is that we should not run good cards for fear of people having answers?

Warren Instigator doesn't hit very often because your opponents will distort their gameplay at nearly all costs to make him not connect. This is a great thing. It forces your opponents to have less to deal with the previous top threats. I've found my Warchiefs stay alive much more often when Instigator draws the STP.

Plus, there's so much benefit you get from being able to pass turn with a Vial at 2 and either force your opponent not to swing out of fear, or catch them sleeping, sneak one in, and connect.

Im not saying that you should not run WI, well if you like playing it then do so . . . I said that in my personal opinion MWM is much better than WI card for card. You have lackey so for me theres no sense on running instigators.

[lebarion]

MWM is better against Zoo, and that's why I prefer him in today's metagame. I believe WInstigator is better in almost every other match.
Also, to get WInstigator to its full potential, I think you should use a couple Goblin Chieftain. WInstigator turn 2 followed by Goblin Chieftain turn 3 is very good.

[Tom T]

I haven't tested WI yet. I will this evening, but until then my opinion will be:
Warren Instigator puts pressure on an opponent and contributes in a controll-like situation because of it.
Mogg War Marshall has a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck, but doesn't contribute in controll-like situations except for keeping big guys off for a turn.
Warren Instigator is to slow to contribute in aggro play.
Mogg War Marshall provides more opportunities for turn 3 kills.
Warren Instigator has a hard manacost. It doesn't interact with Warchief this way. I really like to drop all my Ringleader-goblins directly when I have a Warchief in play. When I leave an Aether Vial on 3 counters, it's because of the situation I don't want to pay RR for a single goblin.

Guys (especially Gobolord, very clear), thanks for your testing.

[ScatmanX]

I really don't want to write a report about my last champ, but since we're in the Instigator subject, here's his experience:

I run Gobbolords list, -1 Instigator, -1 Sting, +1 Bolt, +1 Prospector.

R1- Lands
g1 - Never showed up.
g2 - Was my 2 drop, and connected once, but Lands with Manabound and Loam and Mishra's was just too much, while I didn't draw Waste/Port/Blood Moon.

R2 - No-Bant
g1 - Never showed up.
g2 - came in turn 4 I guess, after he countered a Bolt on his Hierarch, and dropped Progenitus. I was as 21, due to 1 StP, so Instigator helped me put my army in, and win with 1 life.

R3 - Zoo
Did not see g1, sided out g2. win 2-0.

R4 - Ub Folk
don't really remember. 2-0

R5- U Folk
did not show up.

R6 - Junk
g1 - 1st turn Lackey, he has 1st turn Bob. I hit, he blocks, I cast Instigator. He cast Relicary. I never drew a removal.
g2 - sided out.

R7 - Elves
Never showed up.

I really don't know what to think. They were better than MWM in every MU, except against Junk. I'll probably stick with them for the next month, and see how it goes.

[Nelis]

Mogg War Marshall has a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck, but doesn't contribute in controll-like situations except for keeping big guys off for a turn.

I don't fully agree. I think it also contributes to the control-like situation because it makes Gempalm Incinerator much more effective.

[jrw1985]

I think Instigator v War Marshal has to come down to personal choice and play style. Instigator is better against Aggro-control with fewer creatures. MWM is better against pure aggro with more removal and more creatures. The only real way to say one is right or not is based on your local meta and and your personal play style.

[GoblinZ]

Hello every one

I have run a RW goblin deck for over two months，but now I am considering if I should splash red and green instead of white，here is the RW version I use：

4 mountain
4 plateau
6 fetch land
4 port
4 wasteland

2 gempalm
2 mogg fanatic
4 ringleader
4 matron
2 goblin chieftain
4 warchief
1 sharpshooter
1 mirror breaker
1 siege gang
4 piledriver
4 lackey
1 tinkerer

4 vial+4 sword to plowshares

And this is the version I am thinking of

2 badland
1 taiga
5 mountain
6 fetch land
4 port+4 wasteland

3 gempalm
2 mogg fanatic
4 lackey
4 piledriver
1 chieftain
4 warchief
4 matron
4 ringleader
1 sharpshooter
1 mirror breaker
1 siege gang
1 tinkerer
1 boggart auntie
2 stingscourge

4 vial +warren wierding

I want to know if this RBG version is better than my RW version and if it is necessary to give up my RW version，I am looking foward for your advice，thanks！

[ScatmanX]

Just sleeved back up my RB goblins! I'm so happy! =D

@GoblinZ: regarding your latter list:
- Fanatic was not worth it in the Survival metagame, where it could kill Birds and Hierarc, and is certainly not worth now.
- there's no need for MD Tinker. If you want, play him in the Sb.
- add 1 Siege-Gang. He's our biggest guy, and you should have at least 2.
- How your SB look like? I don't see the reason for the G splash anymore, but thats a meta call...

[P-AiR]

With Survival out of the picture, I was thinking of swapping the nature's claim for Krosan Grips. Are there decks that require me to answer their artifact/enchantments before turn 3? My meta is quite random, you have a few merfolks, rock, enchantress, burn, tes, and show/tell.

I've seen people refer to Nacatl being killed by Lackey / Wasteland. Can you declare blockers, and after damage has been dealt, play wasteland from your hand? How does that work?

[JonBarber]

With Survival out of the picture, I was thinking of swapping the nature's claim for Krosan Grips. Are there decks that require me to answer their artifact/enchantments before turn 3? My meta is quite random, you have a few merfolks, rock, enchantress, burn, tes, and show/tell.

I've seen people refer to Nacatl being killed by Lackey / Wasteland. Can you declare blockers, and after damage has been dealt, play wasteland from your hand? How does that work?

Assuming they only have 1 land in play, attack with lackey. They block with nactal. Post combat, play wasteland and waste their land. Nactal becomes a 1/1 with 1 point of damage on him killing him.

[ddt15]

The most game breaking play you can make with Instigator is probably vialing him into play at end of turn if they didn't hold back any blockers. That has won me some games when I ran it. I would not run more than 2 though, and always play 4 Waste 4 Port (even in RB). I now play Prospector over Instigator.

[GoboLord]

@ Off topic:

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7867/weihnachtslackey.jpg (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/weihnachtslackey.jpg/)

[jin]

With Survival out of the picture, I was thinking of swapping the nature's claim for Krosan Grips. Are there decks that require me to answer their artifact/enchantments before turn 3? My meta is quite random, you have a few merfolks, rock, enchantress, burn, tes, and show/tell.

I've seen people refer to Nacatl being killed by Lackey / Wasteland. Can you declare blockers, and after damage has been dealt, play wasteland from your hand? How does that work?

damage stays on until end of turn.. so even if the Nacatl is a 3/3, it has one point of damage to it. If it becomes a 1/1 now, it will die..

[DarkJester]

I think the greensplash will be needed again in the near future, but I have another question: How do people manage the slots for 4 Wastes/Ports in a three or even two-coloured list (I know the relevance of the Manadenial). For example, here is my actually played manabase:

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Mountain

[ScatmanX]

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Mountain
-2 Fetch, + 2 Mountain.
10 sources of G is enough. The splash is usually lighter than Black.
Iy you run Warren weirdings, Wort, and other Black thing on the board, going down to 4 Basic Mountains is ok.
If you splash 3 colors, 3 Basics is fine.
But 10 fetchs is aways a lot. 7-8 are more than fine.

[lorddotm]

I want to build this for a gauntlet, can someone give me the best, or close to best , l Rb list.

[GoboLord]

-2 Fetch, + 2 Mountain.
10 sources of G is enough. The splash is usually lighter than Black.
Iy you run Warren weirdings, Wort, and other Black thing on the board, going down to 4 Basic Mountains is ok.
If you splash 3 colors, 3 Basics is fine.
But 10 fetchs is aways a lot. 7-8 are more than fine.

He does run only 7 fetchs. I find his manabase perfectly alright.

[ScatmanX]

He does run only 7 fetchs. I find his manabase perfectly alright.
Holy cow!
I though Badlands were fetches there!
Than is is great. Nothing to change.

[Arew]

I want to build this for a gauntlet, can someone give me the best, or close to best , l Rb list.

A standard list is something like this:

Artifacts:
4x Aether Vial

Creatures:
3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Chieftan
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Mogg War Marshal
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger

Land:
1x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
3x Bloodstained Mire
6x Mountain
3x Rishadan Port
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland
2x Wooded Foothill

Sorcery:
2x Warren Wierding

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

I'm in the middle of the preparations for a big tournament at 30th Dec. I'm testing a lot against The Rock/Junk feat Mox Diamonds and it appears to be a tough/bad MU.
Maybe I'm just not used to this MU: I want to have a strategy against this deck (like we have already worked out for Zoo and Stormcombo MU).
What are your experiences agaist the Rock? What strategy is most effective to beat them?
Manadenial, swarm, beat them in early game/midgame/lategame etc.?

It's not that I expect tons of Rock decks at this tourney. I just want to know how to handle it.

[jin]

Hey guys,

I'm in the middle of the preparations for a big tournament at 30th Dec. I'm testing a lot against The Rock/Junk feat Mox Diamonds and it appears to be a tough/bad MU.
Maybe I'm just not used to this MU: I want to have a strategy against this deck (like we have already worked out for Zoo and Stormcombo MU).
What are your experiences agaist the Rock? What strategy is most effective to beat them?
Manadenial, swarm, beat them in early game/midgame/lategame etc.?

It's not that I expect tons of Rock decks at this tourney. I just want to know how to handle it.

postboard or preboard?

preboard is more about keeping them off white, while postboard is more about keeping them off black. Green honestly doesn't matter. They have slow creatures, so gempalm and stinger will do their jobs. Decks with hierarches or birds will get owned by your Sharpshooter (I believe you play this in the main). Get rid of their confidants the same way. This will allow them to keep up with your ringleaders, so you have to get rid of them. Drops things as soon as possible because discard is annoying. They don't play many (if any) sweepers main and maybe Pernicious Deed, Engineered Plague or Engineered Explosives postboard.

What can you board? Not much really. Boartusk Liege does not work since they play like 8 spot removal main deck. You could play some combo hate. Thorn of Amethyst is strong here. It slows down Vindicate, plague, Hymn to Tourach. That's pretty good I think. Goblin Pyromancer is pretty awesome too for a faster alpha strike.

[jrw1985]

Hey guys,

I'm in the middle of the preparations for a big tournament at 30th Dec. I'm testing a lot against The Rock/Junk feat Mox Diamonds and it appears to be a tough/bad MU.
Maybe I'm just not used to this MU: I want to have a strategy against this deck (like we have already worked out for Zoo and Stormcombo MU).
What are your experiences agaist the Rock? What strategy is most effective to beat them?
Manadenial, swarm, beat them in early game/midgame/lategame etc.?

It's not that I expect tons of Rock decks at this tourney. I just want to know how to handle it.

Discard heavy decks are a pain in the ass for Goblins. Without a hand full of creatures we can't cheat anything into play! So really the best game plan you can hope for is to play out your hand as quickly as possible. This means you really need one-drops, preferably Aether Vial but Lackey is very keepable on the play. Ideally you'll want 2 one-drops on the draw, as the first will most likely be Thoughtseized. Once you have your goblins in play the Rock can't deal with them too easily, as Goblins has the anti-meta advantage of playing 3cc+ creatures that are naturally resistant to E.E. and Pernicious Deed. You'll have to be very careful with your mana denial in this MU as sometimes you need the mana to cast your creatures more than you need to deny them their mana. It's really going to be based on your board position and the game state.

On sideboarding- there isn't much to side in or out. Your gameplan G2 isn't any different than G1. you need to play out your hand and win as quickly as possible. Mana denial isn't going to be a big factor. So just stick to the same plan post board as pre-board.

There are some match-ups where there is no clear gameplan post-board. In these MUs it's important to just stick with the game plan of dealing 20 damage as quickly as possible.

[TossUsToLions]

Hey guys,

I'm in the middle of the preparations for a big tournament at 30th Dec. I'm testing a lot against The Rock/Junk feat Mox Diamonds and it appears to be a tough/bad MU.
Maybe I'm just not used to this MU: I want to have a strategy against this deck (like we have already worked out for Zoo and Stormcombo MU).
What are your experiences agaist the Rock? What strategy is most effective to beat them?
Manadenial, swarm, beat them in early game/midgame/lategame etc.?

It's not that I expect tons of Rock decks at this tourney. I just want to know how to handle it.


I have been testing a lot against this deck. Game one, Ports and Wastelands are very important in keeping them off of a specific color. If they do not have Mox Diamond, I like keeping them off of green because they usually only play 2-3 green sources. Without green, they do not have creatures. You can also keep them off of double black if you're afraid of Hymn to Tourach.
If you're on the play, the new Dark Horizons deck has very little answers to mountain, lackey, go. If they don't have swords, they're kinda screwed. Drop a SGC or RIngleader and they will have a tough time trying to come back. If running black, Warren Weirding is awesome in this matchup. Gempalm/Bolt their Confidants, then WW their KotR and Goyfs. THe few creatures they have left will be needed to trade with your piledrivers.
Aether Vial is also very good in this matchup. They do not play many creatures, and vial helps us to play a ccreature every turn while still sticking to the mana denial plan. I got this matchup to be over 50% game one.
G2 is where things start going down. They ussually board in 4 E. Plagues and some Pernicious Deeds. Tough to deal with. I splash green, but since i only have one Chieftain, multiple plagues are tough to deal with. Perish is good to board in if you're running black, as are any extra Warren Weidings or lords you have in the board

[LegacyDan]

I have been wonderin: This deck likes to cheat creatures into play with Vial and Lackey, so why Goblin Warchief? Why not 4 Chieftains? I know Warchief lowers his friends cost, but Chieftain powers them up.

[Nidd]

I have been wonderin: This deck likes to cheat creatures into play with Vial and Lackey, so why Goblin Warchief? Why not 4 Chieftains? I know Warchief lowers his friends cost, but Chieftain powers them up.
You can't count on Lackey connecting and you can't count on Vial resolving. Warchief gives tempo advantage to you and enables you to play 2 Goblins instead of only 1 and still being able to use your Wastelands aggressively/activate Port.

[jrw1985]

Goblins: A Year in Review

We're at year's end and various news and entertainment orgs are doing the annual "Year in Review" schtick. This includes Magic sites like SCG, which inspired me to take a look back at notable Goblin decks from SCG Opens over the course of the year. I chose only three decks to review: the first Goblin deck to make a top 16 in 2010, the Goblin deck that placed the highest in '10, and the last goblin deck to place in top 16 in '10. So I've presented them in order, starting with Curtis Melton's 11th place finish wayyyyyy back in January.

Goblins
A Legacy Magic deck, by Curtis Melton
11th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Los Angeles, California, United States on 2010-01-03
As reported at http://www.starcitygames.com
Click here to see a summary of all decks from 2010 Legacy Open Series
Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator

Basic Lands
18 Mountain

Lands
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy

Here's a deck that stays mono-red but doesn't run any MWMs, Skirk prospectors or Sharpshooters. It's extremely straightforward and is guaranteed to put down a hastey beating with 8 haste-giving lords MD. But it important to remember that these decks exist in context of the meta. This was a tournament that was won by Enchantress. The field was full of classic decks like CounterTop, The Rock, Merfolk and Belcher. This was in the days before Reanimator and ANT started running the tables. Now the meta of January 2011 might be looking a lot like the meta of January 2010, since the decks that were the biggest movers and shakers of the past year (Reanimator, Survival) have been banned out of contention.

Goblins
A Legacy Magic deck, by David Sharfman
1st place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Orlando, Florida, United States on 2010-03-28
As reported at http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/19057.html
Click here to see a summary of all decks from 2010 Legacy Open Series
Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
1 Earwig Squad
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger

Tribal Sorceries
3 Warren Weirding

Basic Lands
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Blood Moon
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Price of Progress
3 Pyrokinesis

David Sharfman won SCG open Orlando with the above list one month after Mueller took Reanimator to 1st place at the Madrid GP. You can see that Sharfman's deck is more tailored for a Meta where giant beasties with shroud run around as one-ofs on the battlefield, hence the 3 Warren Weirdings MD. The singleton MD Earwig Squad never really caught on among RB players. Being able to cast a 5/3 for 2b AND look through your opponent's deck still seems pretty good, but its anti-combo applications are limited. I've tried Earwig myself and have found it useful for stripping Jittes from some decks, but it isn't all that great against combo even as it cannot hit cards in hand. Still, this deck beat a field that only had one Reanimator and one ANT in the top 20, and those were supposedly the bogeymen decks of the day (and I remember playing at my local tourney back in spring, and Reanimator was absolutely everywhere). One thing I really like about this deck is the mana base. 22 Lands with a singleton swamp and 3 ports/4 wastes works great. I've been running this mana base for a while and it has worked wonders for me. I think that this deck taking 1st place was no accident. Rb Goblins was incredibly well positioned at the time. It had MD answers that just pounded on the deck du jour (Weirding for Reanimator) and it was then, as now, a coin-flip for the most aggro-deck with Zoo. It's no wonder then that the last SCG major finish for Goblins took place in the window between Feb and June 2010 when Reanimator found its market in the meta.

Goblins
A Legacy Magic deck, by Jim Davis
4th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Boxborough, Massachusetts, United States on 2010-11-07
As reported at http://www.starcitygames.com
Click here to see a summary of all decks from 2010 Legacy Open Series
Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Basic Snow Lands
5 Snow-Covered Mountain

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis

Now onto Jim Davis' build, the last Goblin deck to place well in a SCG Open. This was back in November in Boston and no Goblin decks made it to the top in Richmond in December. This build ran the MWM, Prospector, Sharphooter trio that was meant to make blockers for Vengevines while machine-gunning Hierarchs and BoPs all day long. It's a build that has become very popular and often written about on this forum. The question now becomes: In a format without Survival is the above mentioned Trio still necessary? Does Goblins take a step back a year and go straight-out Aggro without any funny tricks again? I think it does, because without a dominant archetype to design against you should probably focus on a deck that is as straight-forward as possible, then develop from there as the format develops.

Oh, I just remembered I would be remiss if I did not mention the following...


Ryan Messick
Winner, 2010 Legacy Championship, August 6, 2010

Main Deck

60 cards
1 Arid Mesa
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
21 lands


2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
32 creatures

4 Aether Vial
3 Warren Weirding
7 other spells

Sideboard
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Warren Weirding
15 sideboard cards

Ryan Messick won Lecagy Champs, beating out 196 other players with this toolbox monstrosity. Congrats to him for rocking both Kiki-Jiki and Wort in the MD (and putting up a great showing while doing so). I never saw any sort of tournament report for this list, which is a bummer because I really want to know how this deck played out. Clearly it did great, which to many on this forum came as a surprise just looking at the decklist. I mean, Barbarian Ring? seriously? But it does give goblins some burn options without diluting the creature base. Wort lets you recycle Gempalm for an extra draw a turn. Kiki just wins if he gets online. Actually, both Wort and Kiki are incredibly powerful cards once they get online, but often you'd just rather have a SGC or Ringleader. I'm glad I remembered this list while writing about the SCG decks, because this deck was just so weird it made me happy. It reminds me that there is no clear-cut BEST goblin deck, and that even our very limited flex slots can produce a bounty of possibilities.

2010 was a standout year for Legacy Magic. The format has grown enormously. Bannings have caused 2 successful archetypes to collapse after brief periods of intense popularity. And now SCG has a STACKED calendar of Legacy events for the first half of 2011. This means more reports, more results, more knowledge of the meta and how get advantages against it. 2011 will be a great year for Magic, and hopefully the gobbos do us proud.

[GoboLord]

Nice summary.
I find we should also mention that we "worked out" core-cards (namely: 4 Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC) and sperated them from the "flex-slots":

//Lands [22-24]
...

//Core [26]
...

//Others [number of removal + X]
...

//Sideboard [15]
...

If we go on presenting our decklists this way, comparing them will be much easier, because we only have to look at the "Lands", "Others" and "Sideboard" part. Those parts inlcude the most relevant information about what kind of changes one applied to his/her decklist.
I'd really appreciate if more people present their lists in this fashion.

[bloodbrother]

Nice summary.
I find we should also mention that we "worked out" core-cards (namely: 4 Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC) and sperated them from the "flex-slots":

//Lands [22-24]
...

//Core [26]
...

//Others [number of removal + X]
...

//Sideboard [15]
...

If we go on presenting our decklists this way, comparing them will be much easier, because we only have to look at the "Lands", "Others" and "Sideboard" part. Those parts inlcude the most relevant information about what kind of changes one applied to his/her decklist.
I'd really appreciate if more people present their lists in this fashion.

Can we make a new primer by elaborating Gobolord's post? Our primer is very much outdated. We could also put more info regarding the possible cards in the "Others" slot. More like which decks the "Others" cards are metagamed for.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm throwing together a RB list for Monday. Will this manabase work? It looks like crap, but all I had on short notice.

22 Land
4 Mountain
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Rishadan Port
2 Badlands

As for the list relevant cards are:
MD
4 Warren Instigator
4 Warren Weirding

SB
2 Perish
1 Nature's Ruin

[TossUsToLions]

I'm throwing together a RB list for Monday. Will this manabase work? It looks like crap, but all I had on short notice.

22 Land
4 Mountain
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Rishadan Port
2 Badlands

As for the list relevant cards are:
MD
4 Warren Instigator
4 Warren Weirding

SB
2 Perish
1 Nature's Ruin


The manabase looks fine, but if you fear a lot of Wastelands I would cut 1-2 Hovels for basic mountains. Also, let us know how 4 WI and 4 Warren Weirdings work. I usually only run 2 of each at the most, so I'm interested in hearing how the full playsets of both work out.

[GoboLord]

Hey fellow Warchiefs,

I’ve been on the last tourney for 2010 (aka. “The Big Goodbye-Survival-Party”).
I went 6-2-0 after 8 rounds, 20th out of 91 players. Just like last time only want to talk about the games I lost, not about those I won.

An overview:

Round 1: 2-0, RB Ponza (very oldschool)
Round 2: 1-2, Uwb Tempo Faeries
Round 3: 2-1, The Rock/Dark Horizons
Round 4: 2-0, NO Bant
Round 5: 1-2, Ooze Survival
Round 6: 2-0, Wbg Death in Texas
Round 7: 2-0, Solidarity
Round 8: 2-0, Tempo Bant

My list:

//Lands [23]:
8 Wasteland/Port
4 Taiga
4 Fetchlands
7 Mountain

//Core [26]:
…guess what…

//Others [8 + 3]:
3 L. Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

3 Warren Instigator

//Sideboard [15]:
4 Leyline otV
4 Chalice otV
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Nature’s Claim

Here we go:

Round 2: 1-2, Uwb Tempo Faeries
Game 1:
I go first with Vial. He plays s swamp. I shut his mana off with Rishadan Port. Matron gets me a Ringleader. Piledriver and 2 Matron do heavy damage to his lifes. He is on 9 and plays Bitterblossom. I play SGC, he scoops.

IN: 3 Nature’s Claim
OUT: 3 Lightning Bolt

Game 2:
I take mulligan to 6, keeping a slow hand with only first turn Lackey and several lands. He forces my Lackey and plays Bitterblossom on turn 2. Vendilion Clique, Tombstalker and some bitter Faeries finish me off, while Innocent Blood and Ghastly Demise kill my creatures. There is one situation that I want to point out: It’s my upkeep, my only card in hand is Ringleader, my Vial is @4 and I control 6 lands. I tap Vial for Ringleader in upkeep to not draw more lands in my drawstep. He plays Vendilion Clique in response on Vials ability. You be the judge: did I make a misplay; did my opp play very good; or is it both? I really don’t know. 1-1

Game 3:
I take mulligan to 5 (due to lack of lands) keeping a slow hand with 2 Mountain, Wasteland, Warchief and Matron. He is able to handle my creatures, destroy my Wasteland and drop a Bitterblossom on turn 2 and 3. I don’t find a third land or a creature with manacost <cc3 for the rest of the game. 1-2


Round 5: 1-2, Ooze Survival
Game 1:
On turn 2 Lackey connects into SGC, Bolt hits Birds of Paradise and Wasteland rips Savannah. He scoops. 1-0

IN: 4 Pyrokinesis
OUT: 2 Stingscourger, 2 Lightning Bolt

Game 2:
I keep a risky hand (without first-turn-drop or manadenial): 2 Taiga, Warren Instigator, Matron, 2 Ringleader, Pyrokinesis. He goes first with Birds. Then, on turn 2, plays Quirion Ranger, bounces his land, untaps Birds, plays his lands and plays Fauna Shaman (I thought: Yippikayeah motherfucker, he comes Pyrokinesis!!). That’s what I did: On my turn I play WI and burn his army (pitch Ringleader). He plays Tarmogoyf (3/4). On my turn I draw another Pyrokinesis. My hand is as follows: 2 Mountain, Ringleader, Matron, Pyrokinesis. I want to stop here and ask you guys what you would have done:
a) Play Pyrokinesis (pitch Matron) to kill Goyf and connect with WI
b) Play Pyrokinesis (pitch Ringleader) to kill Goyf and connect with WI
b) Wait and see what happens to find better (pitch-)targets for Pyrokinesis
I lost this game. 1-1

Game 2:
I keep a risky hand (that looks very much like the one in G2). He totally destroys my plans with Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy + Flashback. 1-2


I want to hear your opinion on those 2 topics. After that I have another thing I want to discuss (concerning a “new” idea for a 2011-decklist).

Happy New Year 2011 everyone!

[Arew]

I probably would have Pyrokinesis'd pitching Matron to connect with WI, dropping the Ringleader. Overall, nice report, thanks a lot!

[Zay]

@GoboLord

I would say that your opponent was going to Vendilion Clique you that turn anyway, but you just give him/her the opportune moment.

Was you activating your Aether Vial at end of opponent's turn every turn to check for cards like Vendilion Clique and Stifle?

-Zay

[Arew]

@GoboLord

I would say that your opponent was going to Vendilion Clique you that turn anyway, but you just give him/her the opportune moment.

Was you activating your Aether Vial at end of opponent's turn every turn to check for cards like Vendilion Clique and Stifle?

-Zay

I dunno, if I had a Clique in hand and my opponent was playing Gobbos with a Vial @4, I would probably hold onto it to pluck the Ringleader from him if I didn't need to lay it down to have a body on the field.

[jrw1985]

Round 2: 1-2, Uwb Tempo Faeries
Game 2:
I take mulligan to 6, keeping a slow hand with only first turn Lackey and several lands. He forces my Lackey and plays Bitterblossom on turn 2. Vendilion Clique, Tombstalker and some bitter Faeries finish me off, while Innocent Blood and Ghastly Demise kill my creatures. There is one situation that I want to point out: It’s my upkeep, my only card in hand is Ringleader, my Vial is @4 and I control 6 lands. I tap Vial for Ringleader in upkeep to not draw more lands in my drawstep. He plays Vendilion Clique in response on Vials ability. You be the judge: did I make a misplay; did my opp play very good; or is it both? I really don’t know. 1-1


Round 5: 1-2, Ooze Survival
Game 2:
I keep a risky hand (without first-turn-drop or manadenial): 2 Taiga, Warren Instigator, Matron, 2 Ringleader, Pyrokinesis. He goes first with Birds. Then, on turn 2, plays Quirion Ranger, bounces his land, untaps Birds, plays his lands and plays Fauna Shaman (I thought: Yippikayeah motherfucker, he comes Pyrokinesis!!). That’s what I did: On my turn I play WI and burn his army (pitch Ringleader). He plays Tarmogoyf (3/4). On my turn I draw another Pyrokinesis. My hand is as follows: 2 Mountain, Ringleader, Matron, Pyrokinesis. I want to stop here and ask you guys what you would have done:
a) Play Pyrokinesis (pitch Matron) to kill Goyf and connect with WI
b) Play Pyrokinesis (pitch Ringleader) to kill Goyf and connect with WI
b) Wait and see what happens to find better (pitch-)targets for Pyrokinesis
I lost this game. 1-1

Game 2:
I keep a risky hand (that looks very much like the one in G2). He totally destroys my plans with Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy + Flashback. 1-2

Happy New Year 2011 everyone!

Against Faeries you vialed in Ringleader in your upkeep in an attempt to not draw into a land. That isn't really a valid stategy. I understand that you were worried about drawing land, land, land, lackey, but unless you've stacked your deck recently you have no control over whether your ringleader will be clearing lands or not. And even if your Ringleader does blank 4 lands, there's no guarantee that the fifth card you draw for your turn won't be a land also. Basically, unless you know what the top cards of your library look like, Ringleader in no way affects your probability of drawing a land for the turn.

But that's not really the issue. Clearly the factor that made Vialing in your upkeep a misplay was the presence of Vendilion Clique, and since you knew you were against a faerie deck you could have played it better. However, I'm not going to rag on you too hard because your opponent was clearly in control over how they played their Vendilion Clique. You weren't. Since you had a Vial online at 4 counters there in no way in the world that your opponent was going to use that Vendilion Clique at any point other than in response to your Vial activation. Usually Clique comes down at the end of your draw step, putting the best card in your hand at the bottom of your library and giving you a lesser topdeck. There was still the possibility you opponent would have played him then, to which you could have responded with Vial. But by taking the initiative you took away your ability to be reactive.

So, Vialing Ringleader in your upkeep doesn't change the probability of you drawing a land for the turn, so it was a mistake to lose your ability to be reactive with Vial to do so.

Against Ooze, how did you lose the second game? With the game state you described it seems pretty clear that you would Pyro the Goyf, pitching Matron, then connect with Instigator to put Ringleader and whatever else you draw into play. I would pitch the Matron since the only card I could see myself fetching with Matron would be a Ringleader. You're out of cards in hand. He's the obvious choice.

G3 you said you kept a risky hand. I'm guessing that means WI and no 1 drop. WI is great against combo when you absolutely know he'll be getting through T3, but against decks with creatures it's pretty slow keeping him as your only way to cheat goblins into play. You probably should have mulled to a 1 drop in that situation, especially since you were on the play.

[lotriderm]

@ GoboLord

Against Faeries: I probably would not have vial'ed in the Ringleader during my upkeep. My reasoning is that I would have drawn for the turn and then Ringleader during mainphase because this way I can see 5 cards total. Like what jrw1985 said, you can't control what is in that top 4 cards, so I would have drawn for the turn (irrelevant if it's a land because Ringleader would have put it on the bottom anyways). The option for seeing more cards off the top of your deck seems to be ideal since you were pretty low on cards.

Against Ooze Survival: I agree with jrw1985, pitch the Matron to Pyrokinesis and let WI bring in Ringleader to refill your hand.

[from Cairo]

Game 2:
There is one situation that I want to point out: It’s my upkeep, my only card in hand is Ringleader, my Vial is @4 and I control 6 lands. I tap Vial for Ringleader in upkeep to not draw more lands in my drawstep. He plays Vendilion Clique in response on Vials ability. You be the judge: did I make a misplay; did my opp play very good; or is it both?


I think your opponent played well. I don't think there's a good way to navigate around Clique in this situation - playing around it seems like as big a hindrance to Goblins' game plan than walking into it. As Zay mentioned, about all you can do is try to draw Clique and Stifle out with Vial activations.



a) Play Pyrokinesis (pitch Matron) to kill Goyf and connect with WI
b) Play Pyrokinesis (pitch Ringleader) to kill Goyf and connect with WI
c) Wait and see what happens to find better (pitch-)targets for Pyrokinesis


Assuming they don't have White mana up for Swords, I guess the least risky line of play is option B, where you guarantee both WI triggers, Matron into SGC.

Option A has a lot of potential, chances are Ringleader hits some more Goblins, but the issue comes up of what are you going to hit? More Lackeys and WIs isn't spectacular with an otherwise empty hand; Gempalm is good to have in hand, but isn't good with a WI trigger hanging on the stack. Matron and Piledriver are pretty good flips. Ringleader, and SGC are optimal. There's a big chunk of your deck remaining that's Aether Vials, Pyrokinesises and Lands though.

When you weigh Matron and SGC on board versus Ringleader and a mystery goblin on board, I'd take the sure thing and go with SGC.

Option C definitely seems suboptimal against a deck running Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy, because if you Matron on your turn and pass back that gives them a dangerous amount of information and another turn to potentially Mind Twist you.

[lotriderm]

@ from Cairo

Totally forgot that WI has 2 triggers. I was thinking it was Lackey for some reason

[GoboLord]

About the Ooze-Survival thing:

I actually did what most of you would have done: option a): pitch Matron bring in Ringleader. Ringleader revealed 4 lands and all I did for the rest of the game was drawing lands, while he got his Survival online. Vengevines raped me short after.

Still there would have been an better option with Pyrokinesis: Pitch Ringleader, WI connects into Matron; Matron fetches Ringleader. The way I did it I had only 2 creatures (RL and WI), otherwise I would have had 3 (Matron, RL, WI).

Afterall: The best option would have been Matron into SGC. With 3 Lands in play and 2 on hand SGCs tokens would have been able to chumpblock + burn Vengevines.

Thank for your mindful comments so far!

Another topic I want to talk about is my (our) decklist(s) for 2011. Several people already wrote that they will probably pick up Rb lists. So far there havn't been good comments and reasons for that (although I don't doubt that playing black IS good). I already thought about it and have designed a decklist.

//Lands [23]:
8 Wate/Port
9 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Auntie's Hovel

//Core [26]
...guess what...

//Others [6+5]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding

2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
3 Mogg War Marshall

//Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline otV
4 Chalice otV
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Earwig Squad
2 Tuktuk Scrapper

First of all: I'm not good at predicting the metagame (neither in the US nor in Germany). Because of this I ask people who are better at it and those people told me to expect a control and combo metagame in the future.
* This is why I cut my removal from 8 to 6 slots.
* I wanted to pick up Earwig Squad (I find this card good against control and combo only), therefore I added MWM to increase the chances of being able to "prowl" him into play.
* Wort is a very good card in lategame. She recycles our removal, that's why I play goblin-removal only.

[Mantis]

I would probably assume the control role in the scenario against Survival. Just hardcast your Matron, go fetch Gempalm, pass the turn, assume the control role from there. You have a Gempalm, a Ringleader and a Pyrokinesis with a good amount of lands. If you draw buisiness you probably win, if you draw lands you can hardcast Pyrokinesis. This approach is a tad slower and gives him more time to topdeck Survival, but it could force him to play out the creatures in his hand. You lost in an unfortunate fashion, I don't think there would have been too much you could have done to win this game.

[Nelis]

Quick Question: Would you keep a hand like this vs control or combo?:

Mountain
Mountain
Lackey
Lackey
Gempalm
Wasteland
Vial

I'm inclined to trow it away because there's absolutely nothing in this hand to put any pressure on.

[GoboLord]

Quick Question: Would you keep a hand like this vs control or combo?:

Mountain
Mountain
Lackey
Lackey
Gempalm
Wasteland
Vial

I'm inclined to trow it away because there's absolutely nothing in this hand to put any pressure on.

I would keep this hand.
Against Combo: Gempalm is a creature and can therefore be used for the beatdown.
Against Control: They will probably counter your Lackey or "waste" an removal for him. Either way: you still have a backup Lackey and Vial (which are both dangerous cards).
Wasteland is attractive in both MUs.

[Muradin]

Definitely would keep it. It has all the cards that are nice to see in your opening hand. Just go for it and hope to draw into some form of gas.

[Mantis]

In my opinion that hand is just sick, I would keep it in every matchup and rejoice.

You have 10 cards (Matron, SGC, Ringleader) that will make you very happy when you draw them and have quite a lot of draws to find one of these cards, with Gempalm cycling and Wasteland buying you another draw step. Even if you don't draw these and draw a Piledriver, a Wasteland or a Rishadan Port you are still in a very decent position. Keep in mind that Goblins is much better equipped to play the control role than the aggro role.

[GoboLord]

Against Faeries you vialed in Ringleader in your upkeep in an attempt to not draw into a land. That isn't really a valid stategy. I understand that you were worried about drawing land, land, land, lackey, but unless you've stacked your deck recently you have no control over whether your ringleader will be clearing lands or not. And even if your Ringleader does blank 4 lands, there's no guarantee that the fifth card you draw for your turn won't be a land also. Basically, unless you know what the top cards of your library look like, Ringleader in no way affects your probability of drawing a land for the turn.

...

So, Vialing Ringleader in your upkeep doesn't change the probability of you drawing a land for the turn, so it was a mistake to lose your ability to be reactive with Vial to do so.


I don't want to be a know-it-all, but actually playing Ringleader in upkeep does decrease the probability of drawing lands and/or non-creature spells. Let me proof my point with a short example (attention: maths involved!):

Lets say its the upkeep of turn 5 and we managed to play a land in each of our 4 mainphases. To keep it simple: non of those lands was a fetchland. So there are 18 lands in our library.
We control Aether Vial with 4 counters and the only card in hand is a Goblin Ringleader.
We didn't play Goblin Matron or Gempalm Incinerator, so our library contains 50 cards (18 of which are lands).
The regular chance to draw a land is therefore 18/50= 36,0%
Let's now see what happens if we play Ringleader in upkeep:

We play Ringleader in upkeep. We see 4 cards (It doesn't matter here if there are lands among those cards. Instead of putting those 0-4 cards on bottom of library we could remove them from game and put them on bottom of library after our drawphase - either way: we know that those 0-4 cards won't affect the chance of drawing a land among the remaining 46 cards). The probability to draw a land in drawphase is therefore:

18/46= 39,13% (...when RL reveals 4 Goblins)
17/46= 36,95% (...when RL reveals 3 Goblins)
16/46= 34,78% (...when RL reveals 2 Goblins)
15/46= 32,6% (...when RL reveals 1 Goblin)
or 14/46= 30,43% (...when RL reveals 0 Goblins)

As I said before: The chance to draw a land without interference of Ringleader in a 50-cards library with 18 lands was 36%.
Therefore the chance to not draw a land is decreased in 3 out of 5 possible cases.

I know that the difference is very small, but I think we should profit even from the slightest advantage. (That's a bit like the snow-flake-metaphor: a single snow-flake on a branch does nothing, but a thousand snow-flakes can break it.)

[ScatmanX]

@GobboLord: I don't know if putting Aether Vial in your math would change anything, but I guess it wouldn't, so I agree with your calculations here.

Anyway, regarding on using Ringleader o the upkeep, I wouldn't. Specially if you're afraid of Clique.
The reason behind that is: the card you draw for the turn can make your play different. If you draw a Matron, things could go other way. If you draw a Port/Waste, you could screw him, and make him use Clique before he wanted to, so you can respond with Vial.
The deal is, is hard to figure whether he has Clique or don't, but you did not had to do that.
The safest play (and I'm not saying is the one I would do. I really don't know) would be to pass the turn.
Then, 2 things could happen:
1 - He EOT Cast Clique. So you respond with Ringleader, and hope to get at least 2 good cards.
2 - Make a frown face, and pass. If he does not use Clique, use Vial in HIS upkeep. I have never seen someone that would hold back Clique in that situation. I mean, why wouldn't he cast it? There's no reason. So, before his draw, you get the Ringleader trigger. Oh, you didn't bash for 2, but whatever.
I guess that, if you pass the turn, the opponent might think you have a SGC in your hand, or a Gempalm, so he would definitely cast it.

[TossUsToLions]

Quick Question: Would you keep a hand like this vs control or combo?:

Mountain
Mountain
Lackey
Lackey
Gempalm
Wasteland
Vial

I'm inclined to trow it away because there's absolutely nothing in this hand to put any pressure on.

Everyone is so sure about keeping this hand, but i would be extremely careful in this situation. I hate relying completely on my draws to win me games. In my last tournament, i had two hands almost identical to this one and got destroyed in both of them. In the first, I went on to draw 7 lands in my next 8 draws

[ScatmanX]

Everyone is so sure about keeping this hand, but i would be extremely careful in this situation. I hate relying completely on my draws to win me games. In my last tournament, i had two hands almost identical to this one and got destroyed in both of them. In the first, I went on to draw 7 lands in my next 8 draws
Well, if you draw 7 lands out off your next 8 cards, there simply aren't much hands that could have been good.
But hey, you survived until 8th turn, so that should count for something! =D

[TossUsToLions]

Well, if you draw 7 lands out off your next 8 cards, there simply aren't much hands that could have been good.
But hey, you survived until 8th turn, so that should count for something! =D

That is true :smile:
But it was just an example of how relying completely on draws is bad. Yeah, if you draw a ringleader/matron/SGC then you're set. But if you draw a Chieftain, Warchief, vial, lackey, gempalm, land, Mogg War Marshall, Warren Instigator, Warren Weirding, Lightning Bolt, or Piledriver then you basically have nothing. What if your next three draws are Vial, land, Piledriver. That's three turns where you sit there and do pretty much nothing. By keeping this hand, you are taking a chance: Draw one of 10 cards (Ringleader, Matron, SGC) and probably win, or draw anything else and probably lose. And the more draws you go without hitting one of those 10 cards, the greater the probability that you lose becomes.

[Nelis]

I am very hesitant about relying on good draws that's why I asked. I'm more of an agressive muliganer, I guess.

Another question. How do you guys treat Stingscourger and Gempalm Incinerator in tems of the deck's curve? Do you look at their CMC and fit them in the curve accordingly or do you look at them some other way?

[Amon Amarth]

I treat them as 2 mana removal spells. Typically you will only play them on turn 2 if you can get a Lackey to connect that same turn. Their casting cost doesn't really matter because whether or not you need to use them depends on the game state.

[Vandalize]

Hmm, if you're running 2 Wort, Boggart Auntie, why not give Lightning Crafter a try? It usually "Champion" a Matron, if it gets removed, you can bring your matron back fetching a Wort, and recover the Crafter shortly after. Seems good in theory, and Crafter is really good against some decks.

[ScatmanX]

Hmm, if you're running 2 Wort, Boggart Auntie, why not give Lightning Crafter a try? It usually "Champion" a Matron, if it gets removed, you can bring your matron back fetching a Wort, and recover the Crafter shortly after. Seems good in theory, and Crafter is really good against some decks.
If something gets Removed (Exiled) from the game, Wort cannot get it back.

[GoboLord]

If something gets Removed (Exiled) from the game, Wort cannot get it back.


That's not what he meant.
He was describing the following scenario:
* play Crafter, champion Matron
* when Lightning Crafter is removed/destroyed Matron comes into play again
* fetch Wort with Matron
* Wort gets you your Crafter back

@ Vandalize: I had the same idea (adding Crafter). But right now I'm totally droping the B splash and the heavy creatures. Reason: if the meta is flooded by control and aggro decks we can just do what goblins can do best: being fast. We have to play the control part against aggro and the aggro part against control and combo, that's why I added some speed to my list with 3 Chieftains-

Another topic:
What do you guys think of integrating the Kiki-Jiki/Perstermite-combo to the deck:

//Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
7 Fetchlands
3 Volcanic Island
2 Soaring Seacliff NEW!!
7 Mountain

//Core [25]
-1 SGC

//Others [5+7]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

4 Pestermite NEW!!
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

//Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline otV
4 Chalice otV
2 Echoing Truth NEW!!
2 Hibernation NEW!!
3 Spell Pierce NEW!!

Perstermite's pros and cons:

+ combo part
+ can act as a "removal" (although it doesn't remove creature in the classical way).
+ can do tricks with Aether Vial
+ can be a way to defeat Moat
- it isn't a Goblin
- requires 7 slot (counting KJ) to be really effective
- doesn't completely remove/bounce/destroy creatures
- has high manacosts in comparison to other removal


The whole lists is less about removing creatures but it relies on sneaking lackeys and piledriver through with e.g. Soaring Seacliff. This way of dealin with creatures is less effecetive than the traditional way (burning them). Because of this the number of cards that ensure that lackey and piledriver can go their way is increased from the traditional ~7 to 11 (2 Seacliffs, 4 Pestermite, 5 goblin-removal).
Blue gives us the opportunity to run cards in board that are effective in dealing with problematic cards and MUs:
* Echoing Truth - additional removal, Humility, Moat, Jitte, Solitary confinement, Zombie-Tokens (Dredge)
* Hibernation - obviously every green permanent (therefore good against Enchantress)
* Spell Pierce - storm-combo, Jitte, Humility, Moat etc.

What do you think?

[arebennian]

I think that the Pestermite portion of the idea is a shit idea. If you want evasion, stick with black and use 'cover of darkness'. I think your better off adopting a portion of the 'Goblin Champion's' combo. All goblins = more synergy.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12248-[Deck]-Goblin-Champions

Seacliffs are an interesting idea. They have been discussed on this board before. If you are running them then you must take full advantage and run 4 in conjunction with some number of Instigators.

Edit: Intentionally provocative just to reinforce the absolute in a fun way. No offence intended.

[ScatmanX]

I think the idea should be tested, but I don't think it will work well...
Instead of Pestermites, you could use 2 Lightning Crafter ans 2 Skirk Prospector, that combo with Kiki for "infinite" damage.

And instead of using Seacliff, I'd rather use Smoldering Spires.

[TossUsToLions]

Since we are on the topic of trying out new cards, i was wondering if anyone has yet to try out Rancor. It may seem ridiculous, but first turn lackey, second turn rancor will usually get him through. But best of all, a Rancor on a Piledriver is absurd. A trampling 15/2 pro-blue critter is pretty tough to deal with. I would probably take out Stingscourgers/Warren Weirdings for them (because it can be used instead of removal to get a Lackey through on turn two) and maybe add in some Warren Instigators.

What does everyone think?

[markbris]

Since we are on the topic of trying out new cards, i was wondering if anyone has yet to try out Rancor. It may seem ridiculous, but first turn lackey, second turn rancor will usually get him through. But best of all, a Rancor on a Piledriver is absurd. A trampling 15/2 pro-blue critter is pretty tough to deal with. I would probably take out Stingscourgers/Warren Weirdings for them (because it can be used instead of removal to get a Lackey through on turn two) and maybe add in some Warren Instigators.

What does everyone think?

Most lackeys die to removal, blockers is a secondary concern imo. You will also get insta 2 for 1'ed when you play the rancor and they stp him in response.

[jrw1985]

Since we are on the topic of trying out new cards, i was wondering if anyone has yet to try out Rancor. It may seem ridiculous, but first turn lackey, second turn rancor will usually get him through. But best of all, a Rancor on a Piledriver is absurd. A trampling 15/2 pro-blue critter is pretty tough to deal with. I would probably take out Stingscourgers/Warren Weirdings for them (because it can be used instead of removal to get a Lackey through on turn two) and maybe add in some Warren Instigators.

What does everyone think?

Fuck yeah, dude. I fully approve of Rancor testing, and we've already seen Green splash as a super viable option for Gobbos. Throw a list together and let us know how the testing goes. Its reusability is great with Piledriver, Instigator, and could potentially make bigger bruisers playable. 8 non-goblins slots should still leave a deck that's 50% goblin cards, so I think it's worth trying.

[ScatmanX]

I playtested against a friend today with the Ru list GobboLord posted, and I must say, Kiki Jiki and Pespermite are a lot fun...
I don't know if any good, or better than traditional, but sure are fun to play.

[jrw1985]

Quick Question: Would you keep a hand like this vs control or combo?:

Mountain
Mountain
Lackey
Lackey
Gempalm
Wasteland
Vial

I'm inclined to trow it away because there's absolutely nothing in this hand to put any pressure on.

I kept a hand like this today against a GB deck with Deeds and discard. I lost on the play after completely failing to draw into anything relevant.

I also lost a match against TES today. Game 1 I out played her but just got unlucky when I failed to get a Sharpshooter or Matron. When will Empty the Warrens players realize they can't attack with all 10 goblin tokens when you have a Vial at 1? Game 2 I made a huge tactical mistake by not mulling into combo hate. Instead I kept a strong goblin hand with Lackey, Matron, Ringleader, Warcheif and lands. I died turn 2.

Here's where my thought process went awry... In the match prior I played Lands, and after winning G1 blew them out t3 G2 (Lackey, Piledriver, Seigegang)! In that game I had kept a strong Goblin hand without GY hate, since I knew I could draw into it (Tormod's Crypt) and take the game that way. Fast Forward to G2 against TES and I found myself in a similar situation- Solid opening hand but no hate. I figured that I could draw into it in that situation too. The reason this was wrong was Lands is a control deck that gives you time to find answers. TES just kills you too quickly when it works. I could have won had I mulled to hate (Chalice at 0). Instead I tried to outrace a deck easily capable of a T2 kill.

The moral of the story: Mulligan strategies work differently depending on what deck you're facing.

List time!

Decks to mull into hate against-
Dredge
TES
ANT
Belcher
Combo Elves
Painter's Grindstone/Bomberman

Decks OK to draw into hate against-
Lands
Enchantress
Staxx

Notice a pattern? Basically, explosive decks capable of killing in the first 3 turns in a non-interactive way need proactive answers (AKA you need to mull to some hate). Control decks can be dealt with more loosely, because even if they shut you down for a while, you can still blow them out with a well timed topdeck.

Also, I have been running a Mogg War-Marshall free deck, and in half my matches today I found myslef wanting them to chump block hordes of tokens.

[Mantis]

Since we are on the topic of trying out new cards, i was wondering if anyone has yet to try out Rancor. It may seem ridiculous, but first turn lackey, second turn rancor will usually get him through. But best of all, a Rancor on a Piledriver is absurd. A trampling 15/2 pro-blue critter is pretty tough to deal with. I would probably take out Stingscourgers/Warren Weirdings for them (because it can be used instead of removal to get a Lackey through on turn two) and maybe add in some Warren Instigators.
I think it could potentially be a brilliant idea or absolute garbage.

Rancor could tremendously help against Zoo. Your useless 1/1 dorks, that were previously chumping their Kird Apes and Nacatls are now trading with them and then Rancor comes back! However, a deck like Zoo runs a shitton of removal so they can easily 2 for 1 you.

Rancor on Instigator gives me wet dreams however. I will definately try out Rancor in an Instigator build. Let me know how your testing goes!

[ricowaits]

Morning Gang,

Heading off to an event today and I'm stuck on the final 3 slots of my sideboard.



SB
3 Blood Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Anarchy
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
3 : ?????

I'm flipping a coin between Chalice and Jitte any quick advice?

[Pinoy Goblin]

ricowaits
Morning Gang,

Heading off to an event today and I'm stuck on the final 3 slots of my sideboard.



SB
3 Blood Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Anarchy
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
3 : ?????

I'm flipping a coin between Chalice and Jitte any quick advice?

I prefer Goblin Balloon Brigade as your final sb slot so you can have blockers for flying creatures:smile: kidding Aside, I would choose Chalice over jitte. It depends on your meta there but I would rather put thorn of amethyst for storm/combo/burn decks or pithing needles because of its flexibility.

[TossUsToLions]

Morning Gang,

Heading off to an event today and I'm stuck on the final 3 slots of my sideboard.



SB
3 Blood Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Anarchy
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
3 : ?????

I'm flipping a coin between Chalice and Jitte any quick advice?

If you're playing monored and it's an unknown meta, i would play 3 Pithing Needle or 3 Pyrokenisis. Both of these cards are great against a lot of different decks.

So this is what i threw together for my deck that utilizes Rancor. It could be a while to see any results because I'm starting school again and engineering leaves very little time for testing. When i do test i have to play MWS, which i hate...

Anyways, the list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial

4 Warren Instigator
3 Rancor

3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
6 Fetches
5 Mountain

[GoblinZ]

Maybe Goblin Tinkerer is a good choice，especially if you run mono red。。。it can deal with jitte，cranial plating，dreadnought，vial or top etc。。。

[ricowaits]

Maybe Goblin Tinkerer is a good choice，especially if you run mono red。。。it can deal with jitte，cranial plating，dreadnought，vial or top etc。。。

I ended up going with Jitte as I figured Zoo and Merfolk would be big. Ended up being a mix of everything.

Round #1 - Bant. Went three games. I had lethal on the board next turn he EOT Brainstorms, snags E-tutor for Absolute Law and snuck a Goyf with Jitte through for the win.

Round # 2 - DoomShow - Game # 3 - Rips his only basic island to SnT thru a seemingly game ending Blood Moon.

Round # 3 - Counterbalance. 3rd turn CB + Top. Topped with x2 Goyf and 3 STP/PtE to remove what business I had. Game #2 was a complete slaughter , Trip Goyf 2 BEB, 2 STP and a well timed daze.

0-3 Drop


15 Mountains
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief
4 Gempalm
3 Matron
2 SGC
3 Stingscourger
2 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter

3 Goblin Grenade

SB
3 Blood Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Anarchy
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
3 Jitte


Goblin Grenade did its job eating a War Monk game 1 and two Goyfs along the way, sadly it just wasn't enough. After todays results the only way to play goblins is with the black splash. Perish is required no question about it.

[jrw1985]

Goblins just won SCG Kansas City! A second deck also made top 4. The 2 Goblins decks faced off in the Quarterfinals, and the winner beat Merfolk in the finals.

Ah... a world without Survival.

[TossUsToLions]

Goblins just won SCG Kansas City! A second deck also made top 4. The 2 Goblins decks faced off in the Quarterfinals, and the winner beat Merfolk in the finals.

Ah... a world without Survival.

Triple Pyrokenisis was insane, ha.

Just from this tourney, I'm happy to see where Gobbos stands in the meta. There were apparently A LOT of folk, some counterbalance, and a very little amount of Zoo. This is great news for us, but the Death and Taxes lists scare me...

[JonBarber]

There was only 4 goblins decks in the whole tourny. Expect a lot more zoo, Death and Taxes, and thresh decks.

[LostButSeeking]

Do you guys have the list? I was bumming around SCG , but I can't find it.

[TossUsToLions]

Do you guys have the list? I was bumming around SCG , but I can't find it.

I don't think it's up yet. Check back tomorrow, they should have it up in the morning.

I know it's probably too early to tell, but does the black splash seem like the best build right now?

[LostButSeeking]

I like the black list for a number of reasons. It gives you huge amounts of flexibility. For one thing, it gives you goblin removal in Warren Wierding, which is KILLER. If you want to beat storm combo it gives you Cabal Therapy (which, while not PERFECT, certainly eases a very rough matchup) as well as helping against that super ugly, super common matchup that is Zoo with Perishes. Now, this is obviously a metagame choice. If your common matchups are instead CounterThopters (which commonly runs moat) and Enchantress (ditto) I'd probably consider a green splash (for grip) or a white one (for disenchant). Going into a blind tournament though, in my opinion, the black splash is the strongest.

[jrw1985]

There was only 4 goblins decks in the whole tourny. Expect a lot more zoo, Death and Taxes, and thresh decks.

Only 4 Goblins in a field of 193? You must be joking (right?). I'm expecting there to be a lot more Goblin decks in the meta after 2 made the top 4 at this event. Them's Survival numbers! I also expect High Tide/Time Spiral/Emrakul to see some play, as it's relatively cheap to build and got a lot of coverage this tourny.

I definitely feel a sense of validation seeing Goblins do so well in the first large post-Survival event. I feel like I've been backing the right horse, that the characteristics that drew me to the deck in the first place are valid and viable. The only downside to this event: Where do we go from here? How do we plot against a metagame where we're the top-dog?

That brings up a point I'd like to make about Legacy in general. There was a Pro in the SCG booth between rounds (Mike Jacob) and he was doing some commentary that basicly consisted of bashing the Legacy format and talking about how terrible every deck was. He lamented how it was impossible to play a deck without Force of Will that didn't suck, that losing T2 isn't good for the format, and that most of the cards people play are bad cards. He was generally obnoxious, but his comments revealed his thinking about Magic formats and how they should be played. To him, the most important part of Magic is the metagame, and breaking the metagame to put up a big Pro win is the ultimate goal. His reasoning for Legacy being a bad format then is that it's a format where the meta cannot be broken.

I know, I know. A lot of you are thinking "What about Survival?" but SurvivalVines was an Archetype that showed up in Columbus and slowly grew in strength and popularity. Over the next 5 months it took over and dominated the format and was then banned. Survival was an excellent deck, but it didn't become that way by expliting holes in the metagame. It was just the best deck, period.

Here's the big 'contrast and compare' part of the show. Mike Jacob was basically saying that Legacy is a bad format because you can't break the metagame. You can't show up to a tournament with a new piece of tech or build that will give you a noticable edge against Deck X, but won't lose any leverage against Deck Y. To Mike, this is the essence of Magic: building and tuning a deck to take on the metagame. In Legacy, on the other hand, it's all about building a deck that can control the game as quickly as possible, usually just by winning it. The metagame is almost moot in Legacy. You're generally trying to put as much power on the table as quickly as possible. You're not asking youself if you can beat X, Y, and Z. The question is, can you beat Anything?


So that's my take Legacy v Standard/Extended.

[pryite199]

No he isn't kidding. I was there and had plenty of time to wander around 4 goblin players were all I saw. Ignore Mike Jacob he's a pretty angry guy in general and was just venting. Probably just had bad luck in the rounds and trying to vent some steam must be a bad format not him. Breaking the Legacy metagame good luck with that. Such a huge amount of deck selection and card pool there's always going to be something that trumps you or that you trump. Rock, Paper, Scissors, its part of the reason I like the format.

[luckymartyr]

What is a better way to hate out artifacts: Goblin Tinkerer or Tuk-Tuk Scrapper. I like the fact that tinkerer can kill factories but without haste it will likely get plowed or wrathed before doing anything. Scrapper is a little more expensive but has an immediate effect. Suggestions are welcomed.

[jin]

What is a better way to hate out artifacts: Goblin Tinkerer or Tuk-Tuk Scrapper. I like the fact that tinkerer can kill factories but without haste it will likely get plowed or wrathed before doing anything. Scrapper is a little more expensive but has an immediate effect. Suggestions are welcomed.

play both.. our sideboard needs more goblins

[raindrainxi]

Do you guys have the list? I was bumming around SCG , but I can't find it.

The deck lists are here. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-01-09&end_date=2011-01-09&city=Kansas+City)

A bit surprised that the green splash did better than the Rb build, but I suppose it all depends on the player.

[Avatara]

The deck lists are here. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-01-09&end_date=2011-01-09&city=Kansas+City)

A bit surprised that the green splash did better than the Rb build, but I suppose it all depends on the player.

I don't think you can really judge that unless you have play data on their splash cards... Did the Krosan Grip, Cabal Therapy and Perish hit essential targets? To be honest I don't think the splashes play that different in game 1... surely not the RG version, because it's essentially mono red.

[jrw1985]

The deck lists are here. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-01-09&end_date=2011-01-09&city=Kansas+City)

A bit surprised that the green splash did better than the Rb build, but I suppose it all depends on the player.

Here's the report of their Semifinal match Rg v Rb...
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20878_Semifinals_Chris_Osinski_vs_Julian_Booher.html

Chris' (Rg) Goblin Chieftains made a big impact, as Julian (Rb) ran none. The Chieftains helped Chris win G1 and 3. Chris was also running Sharpshooter, which Julian wasn't. Both of those cards are great in the mirror and against other aggro decks. Chris' deck was just beefier, and he won the dice roll. Both players won the games where they played first, so it's not that big of an issue of one deck being stronger than the other. I do think Chris' build was inherently stronger for the mirror, but winning the dice roll was a huge factor in his success. Also, Chris' Chieftains gave him such superior board position that he didn't even bother holding back the Sharpshooter G3! (probably a mistake though) ...

Anywho, what their match illustrated was that both splashes are still good for the deck, but Chieftains will make you much happier in the mirror.

[Tacosnape]

Or, in shorter, simpler terms, winning the die roll wins the mirror.

This has pretty much been true ever since Goblins stopped packing Mogg Fanatic, or any 1-drop answer to Goblin Lackey. Goblins itself is actually one of the weakest decks in the format against Lackey.

I don't care what few goblins you change out (Within Reason, obviously. Digging Teams and Balloon Brigades don't count.) If you win the die roll, you're favored to win. Even if you're the black splash with Warren Weirding, you're still a little favored.

[RMC13135]

Hi, I just started playing the deck and wanted to know what would be better in the board against combo? I've been told to run Chalice of the Void over Cabal Therapy and Mindbreak Trap.

Since I have no real experience, I was wondering what would be a better call against TES or ANT?

[GoboLord]

Hi, I just started playing the deck and wanted to know what would be better in the board against combo? I've been told to run Chalice of the Void over Cabal Therapy and Mindbreak Trap.

Since I have no real experience, I was wondering what would be a better call against TES or ANT?

Hard to say. We already slapped each others faces over this topic and as far I can remember we came to the conclusion that Thorn of Amethyst, Mind Break Trap and CHalice of the Void all are good anti-combo-cards.

I personally prefer Chalice of the Void because you can set it @0 to avoid being duressed. This is actually the problem with Mindbreak Trap. Plus, setting Chalice @0 doesnt disrupt your gameplan. WIth Thorn of Amethyst you can neither play Goblins nor use manadenial on turn 2.

It's a question of what card you like best - so I'd just test al of them.

[Nessaja]

There's way more to it then that. You need to diversify your hate. The answer to Thorn is going off fast, the answer to Mindbreak Trap is searching for a Duress or using silence before you go off. As such, the approaches to both cards for a combo player are very different. If you win game 2 with mindbreak trap you can be sure they will chant you before going off, rendering Mindbreak Trap ineffective. As such, diversify your hate.

2 Chalice, 2 Thorn 4 Traps if you got 8 spots left =X Otherwise I'd go Chalice and Traps or Thorn and Traps.

[GoboLord]

There's way more to it then that. You need to diversify your hate. The answer to Thorn is going off fast, the answer to Mindbreak Trap is searching for a Duress or using silence before you go off. As such, the approaches to both cards for a combo player are very different. If you win game 2 with mindbreak trap you can be sure they will chant you before going off, rendering Mindbreak Trap ineffective. As such, diversify your hate.

2 Chalice, 2 Thorn 4 Traps if you got 8 spots left =X Otherwise I'd go Chalice and Traps or Thorn and Traps.


Hi, I just started playing the deck[...]
[...]Since I have no real experience, I was wondering what would be a better call against TES or ANT?

I guess s.o. without any experience with this deck or even with this particular MU should first try how those cards work out.

I don't agree with what you said about combo's strategy against hate, but that's a different topic.
Of course you are right that "diversifying your hate" should be taken into consideration when you face a lot of combo, but for starters I'd advice to try out those cards first.

It's not a good idea to split your hate (or to even waste 8 SB-slots) when you don't know the MU. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[BWM]

This has pretty much been true ever since Goblins stopped packing Mogg Fanatic, or any 1-drop answer to Goblin Lackey. Goblins itself is actually one of the weakest decks in the format against Lackey.


QFT...

The best answer Goblins has on a first-turn-lackey is a lackey to block it with...

[Nidd]

Hi, I just started playing the deck and wanted to know what would be better in the board against combo? I've been told to run Chalice of the Void over Cabal Therapy and Mindbreak Trap.

Since I have no real experience, I was wondering what would be a better call against TES or ANT?
Coming from a former Combo player: Play Chalice. It's the most disruptive Hate available to you.

QFT...

The best answer Goblins has on a first-turn-lackey is a lackey to block it with...
No, it's Lightning Bolt because your opponent runs means to get rid of your Lackey and will connect.

[Lorenzo767]

Hi!
In the last month i restart playing magic after 4 years of stop and i decided to begin play Legacy for a lot of reason, expecially because i'm a goblin-lover :D
So i keep on hand again my old Extended Goblin deck (it was with the Patriarch's Bidding xD) and i try to Re-build the decklist adeguating it for legacy, for my purpose i visited and read a lot of forum,site and articles about Legacy and Vial Goblin and i tested my deck on mws ( :( in my zone legacy it's not too popular...)

The result actually is this:

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Badlands
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Goblin King
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

Or -4 Therapy -1 Tin Street + 2 Earwig Squad + 3 REB

I want to know your opinion about my decklist and my choice...
My biggest doubt are:
MWM Yes or not? if yes what can i remove from MD for it? and how many copy? 3?
It's the 1x tool a good choyce? if not why?
The mana-base it's ok? or i should improve ti with the 4° Rishadan port? 22 land are enough?
Warren Weirding 2 o 3 copy?
In the MD there are some card that i would like to play but i have no space: 1 Tin Street Hooligan,1 Skirk Prospector( some interesting trick and make me remove quickly the Bridge From Below) 1 Earwing Squad

And finally i'm not sure of what to play on SB but i think SB must be builded in base of Metagame...so i't just a teorically discussion...

Thank you guys and sorry for my english xD

[GoboLord]

Hi!
In the last month i restart playing magic after 4 years of stop and i decided to begin play Legacy for a lot of reason, expecially because i'm a goblin-lover :D
So i keep on hand again my old Extended Goblin deck (it was with the Patriarch's Bidding xD) and i try to Re-build the decklist adeguating it for legacy, for my purpose i visited and read a lot of forum,site and articles about Legacy and Vial Goblin and i tested my deck on mws ( :( in my zone legacy it's not too popular...)

The result actually is this:

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Badlands
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Goblin King
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

Or -4 Therapy -1 Tin Street + 2 Earwig Squad + 3 REB

I want to know your opinion about my decklist and my choice...
My biggest doubt are:
MWM Yes or not? if yes what can i remove from MD for it? and how many copy? 3?
It's the 1x tool a good choyce? if not why?
The mana-base it's ok? or i should improve ti with the 4° Rishadan port? 22 land are enough?
Warren Weirding 2 o 3 copy?
In the MD there are some card that i would like to play but i have no space: 1 Tin Street Hooligan,1 Skirk Prospector( some interesting trick and make me remove quickly the Bridge From Below) 1 Earwing Squad

And finally i'm not sure of what to play on SB but i think SB must be builded in base of Metagame...so i't just a teorically discussion...

Thank you guys and sorry for my english xD

You manabase and MD are almost perfect IMO.
If you run Cabal Therapy in SB MWM is just killer! I would run 3-4 copies in MD you can cut Kiki-Jiki (hard to get RRR with 7 colorless lands), Wort and 1 or 2 Chieftain maybe.
YOu sideboard is good but I don't like the Goblin King. You could run the 4th Tormod's Crypt or 2nd STingscourger (against Show and Tell). If you want to stick to a Lord in SB I'd rather play Chieftain than Goblin King, because haste is simply better than Mountainwalk.

[SpencerForHire]

Can someone explain to me on the preference on Mogg War Marshal over say Warren Instigator. Is it strictly the pure "value" of two targets instead of one or what else may it be?

[jtwilkins]

3 bodies to chump with or on a blitz attack with Warchief & Piledriver +4 (from two goblins) as opposed to +2 (from only one additional attacker).
War Marshal is just a better draw later in the game when you need more bodies to block or pump Piledriver.

[TossUsToLions]

I think we need to discuss Cabal Therapy. With 3-4 Mogg War Marshall in the main, 3-4 Cabal Therapies in the board seem really sick in a lot of matchups. It helps against TES, enchantress, stax, other controlly/comboey decks, etc. After the first few turns, you can probably name 56 of the cards in your opponents deck. Siding them in gives us 3-4 more one-drops. Leading with a Therapy then playing MWM and flashing Therapy back on turn two is ridiculous. It also gives us a way to fight Engineered Plague without being forced to splash green.

Has anyone used Therapy successfully (or unsuccessfully) yet? If so, what decks did you bring it in against? There is a slight chance I'm going to SCG Indy and if I do, I will either play g/r with Rancors (if i'm feeling adventurous :smile:) or b/r with Therapies in the board

[LostButSeeking]

Can someone explain to me on the preference on Mogg War Marshal over say Warren Instigator. Is it strictly the pure "value" of two targets instead of one or what else may it be?

The other posters have covered some of MWM's good points, but I want to cover one other thing. Against a LOT of decks, Goblins isn't an aggro deck. I know it LOOKS an awful lot like an aggro deck, right, because of all the creatures, but in reality, while your opponents are running tarmogoyf, you're running Fact or Fiction and Demonic Tutor. Mogg War Marshal is an AWFUL lot like Moment's Peace. When I'm playing against Zoo, the difference in my life total and board position when I get a MWM and when I don't is rediculous.



I think we need to discuss Cabal Therapy. With 3-4 Mogg War Marshall in the main, 3-4 Cabal Therapies in the board seem really sick in a lot of matchups. It helps against TES, enchantress, stax, other controlly/comboey decks, etc. After the first few turns, you can probably name 56 of the cards in your opponents deck. Siding them in gives us 3-4 more one-drops. Leading with a Therapy then playing MWM and flashing Therapy back on turn two is ridiculous. It also gives us a way to fight Engineered Plague without being forced to splash green.

Has anyone used Therapy successfully (or unsuccessfully) yet? If so, what decks did you bring it in against? There is a slight chance I'm going to SCG Indy and if I do, I will either play g/r with Rancors (if i'm feeling adventurous :smile:) or b/r with Therapies in the board


Cabal Therapy is extremely solid against storm combo, at least as good as Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst against storm. It certainly turns storm into a winnable matchup, if not a great one. I've also boarded them in against enchantress, and while our matchup against them isn't QUITE as bad as Dredge's matchup against enchantress, it's pretty terrible, and the therapies don't do much to alleviate that. If you're worried about the enchantress matchup, board anarchies, splash green, splash white or play a different deck. I've played stax, but never with my goblin deck. I imagine CT would be better than some of your other cards (like Gempalm), but like I said, I've never tried it.

See my post on the last page about my opinions about the advantages the black splash poses over other colors. I really feel it shores up two of the most common of our bad matchups: zoo and storm combo, while continuing to play to the deck's strengths, while green helps a lot in other matchups (like enchantress). Honestly, if I had the Taigas (which I don't) I might to try run a light green splash for nature's claim or grip, but then I'd have to cut down on graveyard hate, which only invites disaster.

In any case, best of luck. Let me know how the rancors run. Always looking for the new hot tech.