[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Lejay]

I think we need to discuss Cabal Therapy. With 3-4 Mogg War Marshall in the main, 3-4 Cabal Therapies in the board seem really sick in a lot of matchups. It helps against TES, enchantress, stax, other controlly/comboey decks, etc. After the first few turns, you can probably name 56 of the cards in your opponents deck. Siding them in gives us 3-4 more one-drops. Leading with a Therapy then playing MWM and flashing Therapy back on turn two is ridiculous. It also gives us a way to fight Engineered Plague without being forced to splash green.

Has anyone used Therapy successfully (or unsuccessfully) yet? If so, what decks did you bring it in against? There is a slight chance I'm going to SCG Indy and if I do, I will either play g/r with Rancors (if i'm feeling adventurous :smile:) or b/r with Therapies in the board
I have been playing cabal therapy main deck for 6 months and it is simply awesome. You don't run MWM with therapy though, the synergy with stingscourger is much more powerful, and without therapy stingscourger is about as good as a time walk effect than MWM.

[Mantis]

Cabal Therapy is extremely solid against storm combo, at least as good as Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst against storm. It certainly turns storm into a winnable matchup, if not a great one.
No it does not. You will slow them down by using Therapy, but at the same time you also slow yourself down by using mana to cast it and Goblins to sacrifice. Cabal Therapy, while passable against TES, is way, way worse than Chalice. I would appreciate it if an expert storm combo player could comment on this though.

I was 8-0 at GP Madrid and then lost to David Do-Ahn, who it to the finals there, while I drew 2 Therapy and I did not name the wrong cards there. If those 2 Therapies were Chalice of the Voids, I would have beaten him.

[GoboLord]

I have been playing cabal therapy main deck for 6 months and it is simply awesome. You don't run MWM with therapy though, the synergy with stingscourger is much more powerful, and without therapy stingscourger is about as good as a time walk effect than MWM.

That maybe true but this isn't a question of wether to run Stingscourger OR MWM. Stingscourger uses 1-3 slots of our 6-8 removals whereas MWM is played in addition to removal.
If you play against combo you probably side out Stinger and bring in CT, which means that the synergy doesnt matter in the combo MU. If you run MWM in MD i wouln't boar it out against combo, which means that here the synergy with CT does matter.
Against control however you may use Stinger to bounce a creature and then just flashback CT and let your opp discard it; but I guess most of the time you won't name creatures with CT anyway but more dangerous permanents as E.Plague, Moat etc.

Against what decks (other than combo of course) did you bring in CT?`And could you share your list and explain what you board out in those MUs?

//EDIT:

No it does not. You will slow them down by using Therapy, but at the same time you also slow yourself down by using mana to cast it and Goblins to sacrifice. Cabal Therapy, while passable against TES, is way, way worse than Chalice. I would appreciate it if an expert storm combo player could comment on this though.

I was 8-0 at GP Madrid and then lost to David Do-Ahn, who it to the finals there, while I drew 2 Therapy and I did not name the wrong cards there. If those 2 Therapies were Chalice of the Voids, I would have beaten him.

I second that. We should run CT in addition to and not instead of combo-hate.

[Lejay]

CotV is for sure better than CT against storm combo. The reason I prefer Cabal over CotV is that it is far more versatile, up to this point that apparently has been missed :
I have been playing cabal therapy main deck for 6 months

// NAME : [T1.5] Goblin Therapy
// CREATOR : LeJay (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Classic
2 Auntie's Hovel
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sparksmith
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Æther Vial
1 Warren Weirding
3 Cabal Therapy

SB: 3 Skirk Prospector
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Earwig Squad
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

Cabal therapy when facing non-control non-combo match-ups is used to empower stingscourger as targeted removal or to discard creatures preemptively naming the most dangerous/ obvious.
I won't underline every use of the card because you know... it can deal with everything. But you have to realise the card is very synergistic with a deck playing 50% creatures AND with the mana denial.
This also completely changes match-ups that are perceived as very bad. Firespout, moat, solitary confinement, wrath, Humility, Infernal tutor etc... are all cards that when hit will probably allow you to win the game instead of loosing it.

As you will see there is no dedicated hate in my sideboard. This is how I build in legacy. I sideboard according to game plans, reinforcing the one that is the more suitable for the match-up. This means I have NEVER dead cards in my deck post sideboard. This also allows me to run a very strong disruptive suit against combo without being unprepared agaisnt other match-ups.
Against match-ups like control and combo where you have a lot of removal to side out you bring in discard and more threats to become more disruptive.
Against match-up where you act as a board control you side out the agressive elements to bring in pyrokinesis and the 4th cabal therapy.
Against match-ups where vial is too slow (tendrills decks, elfball, affinity, enchantress...) you bring in prospectors. They also act as hate against bridge from below, to handle jitte, or to support an agressive game plan against prison decks or aggro-loam.

As a side note running 7 goblins in the board helps keep the ringleaders pretty good in G2/3.

[Nelis]

As you will see there is no dedicated hate in my sideboard. This is how I build in legacy. I sideboard according to game plans, reinforcing the one that is the more suitable for the match-up. This means I have NEVER dead cards in my deck post sideboard. This also allows me to run a very strong disruptive suit against combo without being unprepared agaisnt other match-ups.
Against match-ups like control and combo where you have a lot of removal to side out you bring in discard and more threats to become more disruptive.
Against match-up where you act as a board control you side out the agressive elements to bring in pyrokinesis and the 4th cabal therapy.
Against match-ups where vial is too slow (tendrills decks, elfball, affinity, enchantress...) you bring in prospectors. They also act as hate against bridge from below, to handle jitte, or to support an agressive game plan against prison decks or aggro-loam.

I like your style! I use to have the same philosophy but somewhere down the line I somehow forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me. You've given me the last incentive I needed to change my MonoR back into R/B.

[jin]

CotV is for sure better than CT against storm combo. The reason I prefer Cabal over CotV is that it is far more versatile, up to this point that apparently has been missed :

// NAME : [T1.5] Goblin Therapy
// CREATOR : LeJay (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Classic
2 Auntie's Hovel
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sparksmith
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Æther Vial
1 Warren Weirding
3 Cabal Therapy

SB: 3 Skirk Prospector
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Earwig Squad
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

Cabal therapy when facing non-control non-combo match-ups is used to empower stingscourger as targeted removal or to discard creatures preemptively naming the most dangerous/ obvious.
I won't underline every use of the card because you know... it can deal with everything. But you have to realise the card is very synergistic with a deck playing 50% creatures AND with the mana denial.
This also completely changes match-ups that are perceived as very bad. Firespout, moat, solitary confinement, wrath, Humility, Infernal tutor etc... are all cards that when hit will probably allow you to win the game instead of loosing it.

As you will see there is no dedicated hate in my sideboard. This is how I build in legacy. I sideboard according to game plans, reinforcing the one that is the more suitable for the match-up. This means I have NEVER dead cards in my deck post sideboard. This also allows me to run a very strong disruptive suit against combo without being unprepared agaisnt other match-ups.
Against match-ups like control and combo where you have a lot of removal to side out you bring in discard and more threats to become more disruptive.
Against match-up where you act as a board control you side out the agressive elements to bring in pyrokinesis and the 4th cabal therapy.
Against match-ups where vial is too slow (tendrills decks, elfball, affinity, enchantress...) you bring in prospectors. They also act as hate against bridge from below, to handle jitte, or to support an agressive game plan against prison decks or aggro-loam.

As a side note running 7 goblins in the board helps keep the ringleaders pretty good in G2/3.

Sorry if I missed anything, I just joined the conversation...

I see the synergy you are talking about where you turn your stingers into removal through bounce and therapy, but it seems a little tedious to hold back your "1 drop" therapies for until after you have received your stingers. It seems like you are too focused on this mini combo and have dedicated too many cards to it going so far as kicking gempalms down to 2 and weirding down to 1. A problem I can see is if you had stingers as your only removal and you have no therapy. Looking for it would be nearly impossible as Ringleaders will surely push it to the bottom. In this sense I would even rather use Lightning Bolts maindeck or Pyrokinesis over extra Stingers/Cabal Therapy combo. I would go so far as calling your type of synergy the same as the Lightning Crafter Kiki-jiki package. Although I do not disagree with Cabal Therapy main, I do disagree with increasing the number of stingers and reducing real removal for this therapy/stinger package. I am not convinced that your removal package is stronger than traditional Goblin removal packages or even the more recent ones that include Lightning Bolt.

Sparksmith is interesting, although I don't know if I'd use him before having 4 gempalms.

Also regarding your sideboard, if you play black why not play Perish? I mean it goes with Goblin's removal strategy. If you have more creatures than your opponents, then you win. That's what Goblin does. What's the point of playing black without playing Perish? Is discard the only reason?

From your card choices on your sideboard, you must sideboard pretty heavily putting in 5+ cards into the main every game 2 or 3. Although your methodology on sideboarding has merit, don't you think that by NOT boarding in hate (aka more effective cards), you are weakening your game 2/3? Cards of versatility belong in your main board, cards of power belong in your sideboard.

I'm sorry, that argument about NOT having dead cards doesn't cut it for me. The point of a sideboard is not to have dead cards, so saying that your strategy provides that simply means nothing to me. Having discard simply because it is versatile doesn't warrent a strong sideboard.

For example, Pithing Needle is super versatile. Sometimes it acts as mana disruption, sometimes it acts as removal, sometimes ti acts as a way to stop a plainswalker. Do we board them in against every deck simply because it goes with Goblin's strategy of mana denial, removing blockers and stopping game winning jaces? No, because there are better cards for those match ups.


No it does not. You will slow them down by using Therapy, but at the same time you also slow yourself down by using mana to cast it and Goblins to sacrifice. Cabal Therapy, while passable against TES, is way, way worse than Chalice. I would appreciate it if an expert storm combo player could comment on this though.

I was 8-0 at GP Madrid and then lost to David Do-Ahn, who it to the finals there, while I drew 2 Therapy and I did not name the wrong cards there. If those 2 Therapies were Chalice of the Voids, I would have beaten him.

Agreed...

There is no way I'd call myself an expert storm player, but if you have no goblins... it's not hard to lay down artifact mana and wait for Infernal Tutor into Ad Nauseam. Discard-alone is NOT a valid strategy against TES as your "discard" is nothing compared to Rock, and the Rock matchup is not a hard match up at all. A combination of hate is always scarier...

Although there aren't THAT many good combo players, so you might get by with just the discard. In the end though, Chalice of the Void is better if it is the only combo hate you are playing as it completely shuts down the artifact mana into Storm Engine. Having an agressive board also shuts off Ad Nauseam which Chalice allows you to have. If you were playing main deck therapy like Lejay, then the Chalices would be even better.

[GoblinZ]

Hi everyone

My meta is full of zoo and affinity，Now I have 1 sharpshooter3 gempalm 2 mogg fanatic 2 stingscourger and 2 warren weirding as removal in my main board and I want to kick 2 fanatic off and add 2 Mogg war marshall。I donnot know if mogg war marshall is better than mogg fanatic。。。please give me some advice。。。

[Lejay]

I see the synergy you are talking about where you turn your stingers into removal through bounce and therapy, but it seems a little tedious to hold back your "1 drop" therapies for until after you have received your stingers. It seems like you are too focused on this mini combo and have dedicated too many cards to it going so far as kicking gempalms down to 2 and weirding down to 1. A problem I can see is if you had stingers as your only removal and you have no therapy. Looking for it would be nearly impossible as Ringleaders will surely push it to the bottom. In this sense I would even rather use Lightning Bolts maindeck or Pyrokinesis over extra Stingers/Cabal Therapy combo. I would go so far as calling your type of synergy the same as the Lightning Crafter Kiki-jiki package. Although I do not disagree with Cabal Therapy main, I do disagree with increasing the number of stingers and reducing real removal for this therapy/stinger package. I am not convinced that your removal package is stronger than traditional Goblin removal packages or even the more recent ones that include Lightning Bolt.

No no no no no.^^
Your main point seems to be, basically, that stingscourger + cabal therapy is a cute combo, but its components are bad (let's say not optimal) on their own. I'm not holding back cabal therapies.
Maybe it's my fault because it is the first thing I argued in talking about Cabal, but stingscourger is just a synergy. Like mana denial and cabal therapy have a synergy too. But you don't need to run cabal to see that mana denial is good in this deck. This is the same for cabal therapy, and this is the same for stingscourger.

Cabal therapy will be often weaker than lightning bolt as removal, as bolt is pure and simple removal against small creatures. But cabal therapy alone also gives you a shot at discarding tarmogoyf before opponent's turn 2, or knight of the reliquary before turn 3. If they don't have it, well that's pretty good news. Also if they have multiples YOU DEAL WITH ALL OF THEM.
More importantly you can deal with other spells. Of course removal, but especially you can deal with game breaking effects like a storm engine, a moat, firespout etc... I already talked about it. What can lightning bolt do against this ? Not very much.

Of course when you are paired against brad nelson's rock you'd rather play warren weiring than stingscourger the vast majority of the time. But stingscourger can deal with the big problem when your opponent has several creatures. It also can be played through a vial with two counters. It also deals 2/3 additional damage with a warchief/chieftain +2 per piledriver. It also doesn't gives +2/+2 to future goyfs and finally with everyone going crazy with Emrakul I just love to have an uncounterable answer playing it through vial or show and tell.

I'll go back on the stingscourger + cabal synergy though. I figured out playing this list that sting+cabal is probably (considering mana denial is not an option) the best turn 3 for this deck, better than a turn 3 warchief.
The reason is in legacy your opponent very often has an answer being either counters or removals. Turn 3 warchief is sensitive to all of them.
Playing Sting+ cabal means that you will almost always do something of your turn 3. If your opponent has removal, he will still loose his big dude/painter etc... and any additionnal copy in hand no matter what. If he has daze in hand that's the same. Worst case he has FoW. Most of the opponents will probably not force a stingscourger, and then they're screwed. Even if they do know you run cabal therapy, you can make them do a mistake by bluffing having a cabal therapy.
And of course best case if your opponent has no response you will still kill a dude with a peek effect and probably discard 1, 2 or 3 cards. It's not that rare I discard 5 cards with a single cabal therapy.


Sparksmith is interesting, although I don't know if I'd use him before having 4 gempalms.

For me sparksmith has been a staple in legacy goblins for 2 years. I tried removing it once and it quickly reached back its home.


Also regarding your sideboard, if you play black why not play Perish? I mean it goes with Goblin's removal strategy. If you have more creatures than your opponents, then you win. That's what Goblin does. What's the point of playing black without playing Perish? Is discard the only reason?

I essentially play black for cabal therapy, access to a warren weirding and squad in the board. I really find squad very good. It is at the same time a threat and disruption. It helps dodging propaganda effects. It dodges double plague. It dodges beb, CoP:red, sphere of law and pyrolasm (let's say volcanic fallout these days). And you can play it as soon as turn 2 either with skirk or with lackey + warchief.
About perish. This is probably the best targeted hate card for goblins right now as it is very effective and often useful in the current metagame. But I found a very well balanced equilibrium in the 15 cards of my sideboard which are all very versatile and complementary. Also as I optimised my main deck against aggro control I really don't feel it is necessary. When sideboarding I don't evaluate the value of the card I'm bringing in. I think the correct way to think about it is to evaluate the added value of the card you bring in minus the value of the card you sideboard out. With this philosophy, as I really like every piece of the main deck against aggro control (can vary but usually -1 FTG +1 cabal therapy) and have few to side out against zoo (-4 piledrivers -1 chieftain + 4 pyrokinesis +1 cabal therapy) I really feel the added value of perish is not that high. It is even more questionable when you add to the equation that 3 mana sorcery is a real problem against daze and spell pierce (because they expect perish !). I'd rather play pyrokinesis which is far more efficient against elfball (perish is too slow), maverick, merfolk, affinity, mirror match etc...


From your card choices on your sideboard, you must sideboard pretty heavily putting in 5+ cards into the main every game 2 or 3. Although your methodology on sideboarding has merit, don't you think that by NOT boarding in hate (aka more effective cards), you are weakening your game 2/3? Cards of versatility belong in your main board, cards of power belong in your sideboard.

This is true. Except you are not playing standard. You are playing legacy. There are so many competitive decks in this format it is insane. So you can in one tournament face ichorid and loose, next time run grave hate and loose against affinity. And next time play artifact removal loose against enchantress, then storm combo etc...


I'm sorry, that argument about NOT having dead cards doesn't cut it for me. The point of a sideboard is not to have dead cards, so saying that your strategy provides that simply means nothing to me. Having discard simply because it is versatile doesn't warrent a strong sideboard.

You are right. Except my sideboard isn't weak at all. I assure you I feel very powerful when I draw my sideboard cards. They are strong and versatile.
The notable exception is probably ichorid. This is a match-up where my sideboard isn't about quality but quantity. But the deck is really really under the radar right now because everybody else is running grave hate.

These considerations on metagaming the sideboard in a small event are perfectly valid. But this is not what we should discuss on an international board, or you have to give your metagame and justify your targeted sideboard along with. I personnally always play in 50+ people events, so I choose the versatile (and powerful) sideboard.

EDIT :
Hi everyone

My meta is full of zoo and affinity，Now I have 1 sharpshooter3 gempalm 2 mogg fanatic 2 stingscourger and 2 warren weirding as removal in my main board and I want to kick 2 fanatic off and add 2 Mogg war marshall。I donnot know if mogg war marshall is better than mogg fanatic。。。please give me some advice。。。

Play 4 lightning bolts main deck in this metagame with pyrokinesis in the sideboard. If you can add perish and artifact removal.

[Lorenzo767]

You manabase and MD are almost perfect IMO.
If you run Cabal Therapy in SB MWM is just killer! I would run 3-4 copies in MD you can cut Kiki-Jiki (hard to get RRR with 7 colorless lands), Wort and 1 or 2 Chieftain maybe.
YOu sideboard is good but I don't like the Goblin King. You could run the 4th Tormod's Crypt or 2nd STingscourger (against Show and Tell). If you want to stick to a Lord in SB I'd rather play Chieftain than Goblin King, because haste is simply better than Mountainwalk.

I'm not sure if Run CT or something different like 3 Pyrokinesi and 1 Tormods (the fourth) ora 3-4 Earwig Squad...and i also want to know if MWM is really more stronger than the 1x toolbox that i'm actually using, i think that MWM is stronger vs agroo deck like Zoo but i think that generally the Toolbox could be more performative...what do you think about that?
For the third Lord i prefear the King because of Mountainwalk, is auspicable that i wanna use it vs deck with removal or engineered plague and for example vs Zoo i think that King could be stronger because of Mountain-Walk...
Another possibility i wanna check is to play a 2° Sharpshooter in sideboard..but maybe without Fanatic/Prospector it's not too good...

Aniway, i need more opinion so i paste again my post:



Hi!
In the last month i restart playing magic after 4 years of stop and i decided to begin play Legacy for a lot of reason, expecially because i'm a goblin-lover :D
So i keep on hand again my old Extended Goblin deck (it was with the Patriarch's Bidding xD) and i try to Re-build the decklist adeguating it for legacy, for my purpose i visited and read a lot of forum,site and articles about Legacy and Vial Goblin and i tested my deck on mws ( :( in my zone legacy it's not too popular...)

The result actually is this:

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Badlands
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Goblin King
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

Or -4 Therapy -1 Tin Street + 2 Earwig Squad + 3 REB

I want to know your opinion about my decklist and my choice...
My biggest doubt are:
MWM Yes or not? if yes what can i remove from MD for it? and how many copy? 3?
It's the 1x tool a good choyce? if not why?
The mana-base it's ok? or i should improve ti with the 4° Rishadan port? 22 land are enough?
Warren Weirding 2 o 3 copy?
In the MD there are some card that i would like to play but i have no space: 1 Tin Street Hooligan,1 Skirk Prospector( some interesting trick and make me remove quickly the Bridge From Below) 1 Earwing Squad

And finally i'm not sure of what to play on SB but i think SB must be builded in base of Metagame...so i't just a teorically discussion...


Thank you guys and sorry for my english and for the Post Repetition xD

[jin]

Hi everyone

My meta is full of zoo and affinity，Now I have 1 sharpshooter3 gempalm 2 mogg fanatic 2 stingscourger and 2 warren weirding as removal in my main board and I want to kick 2 fanatic off and add 2 Mogg war marshall。I donnot know if mogg war marshall is better than mogg fanatic。。。please give me some advice。。。

It is for your metagame... Blocking with War Marshal creates a lot of time for you to set up for an alpha strike.


No no no no no.^^
Your main point seems to be, basically, that stingscourger + cabal therapy is a cute combo, but its components are bad (let's say not optimal) on their own. I'm not holding back cabal therapies.
Maybe it's my fault because it is the first thing I argued in talking about Cabal, but stingscourger is just a synergy. Like mana denial and cabal therapy have a synergy too. But you don't need to run cabal to see that mana denial is good in this deck. This is the same for cabal therapy, and this is the same for stingscourger.

Cabal therapy will be often weaker than lightning bolt as removal, as bolt is pure and simple removal against small creatures. But cabal therapy alone also gives you a shot at discarding tarmogoyf before opponent's turn 2, or knight of the reliquary before turn 3. If they don't have it, well that's pretty good news. Also if they have multiples YOU DEAL WITH ALL OF THEM.
More importantly you can deal with other spells. Of course removal, but especially you can deal with game breaking effects like a storm engine, a moat, firespout etc... I already talked about it. What can lightning bolt do against this ? Not very much.

Of course when you are paired against brad nelson's rock you'd rather play warren weiring than stingscourger the vast majority of the time. But stingscourger can deal with the big problem when your opponent has several creatures. It also can be played through a vial with two counters. It also deals 2/3 additional damage with a warchief/chieftain +2 per piledriver. It also doesn't gives +2/+2 to future goyfs and finally with everyone going crazy with Emrakul I just love to have an uncounterable answer playing it through vial or show and tell.

I'll go back on the stingscourger + cabal synergy though. I figured out playing this list that sting+cabal is probably (considering mana denial is not an option) the best turn 3 for this deck, better than a turn 3 warchief.
The reason is in legacy your opponent very often has an answer being either counters or removals. Turn 3 warchief is sensitive to all of them.
Playing Sting+ cabal means that you will almost always do something of your turn 3. If your opponent has removal, he will still loose his big dude/painter etc... and any additionnal copy in hand no matter what. If he has daze in hand that's the same. Worst case he has FoW. Most of the opponents will probably not force a stingscourger, and then they're screwed. Even if they do know you run cabal therapy, you can make them do a mistake by bluffing having a cabal therapy.
And of course best case if your opponent has no response you will still kill a dude with a peek effect and probably discard 1, 2 or 3 cards. It's not that rare I discard 5 cards with a single cabal therapy.

Yes, that is my argument. I would also use "not optimal" because I am a fan of Cabal Therapy and Stingscourger. Oh I see, so you just use it but not necessarily together. That makes more sense.

Yeah, you don't have to sell me Cabal Therapy, I agree with what you said although what I don't agree with is what you say as therapy's possible targets. For your first example about goyf, would you really preemptively therapy for goyf over dropping goblins for a "chance" to hit some future threats? I'm not so sure about that. That is a huge tempo loss drawing valuable coloured mana. For your second examples storm engine/moat/firespout, do you really think therapy would hit these things unless they topdeck them? I'm not so sure since moat/storm engines are usually silver bullets and get tutored out. Unless they draw them, I don't think you'd get that many chances to strip it from them via discard.

I know where you are coming from with the stinger vs weirding argument. I myself hated weirding when I played it (that's why I continue to play mono R), but I wouldn't go so far as to have more stingers in a build that runs black since weird is hard removal and stinger is soft. I'm pretty sure most people black black because of weirding and not inspite of it. In terms of spot removal, stinger is better but you have main deck spark smith and sharpshooter to take care of the swarm. I'm sure your weirding can handle the rest.

It does seem like a defensive strategy and a strong turm 3 play. I don't know anyone who would counter a stinger on turn 3. But again, this relies heavily on you having both stinger and therapy on turn 3 which is asking a lot of a non-goblin card. Although, having flashback does work to your advantage.


For me sparksmith has been a staple in legacy goblins for 2 years. I tried removing it once and it quickly reached back its home.

It gets removed fairly easily in the Zoo matchup, so I'm thinking it's only valid in the aggro-control match up..

Do you keep it in against Zoo?


I essentially play black for cabal therapy, access to a warren weirding and squad in the board. I really find squad very good. It is at the same time a threat and disruption. It helps dodging propaganda effects. It dodges double plague. It dodges beb, CoP:red, sphere of law and pyrolasm (let's say volcanic fallout these days). And you can play it as soon as turn 2 either with skirk or with lackey + warchief.
About perish. This is probably the best targeted hate card for goblins right now as it is very effective and often useful in the current metagame. But I found a very well balanced equilibrium in the 15 cards of my sideboard which are all very versatile and complementary. Also as I optimised my main deck against aggro control I really don't feel it is necessary. When sideboarding I don't evaluate the value of the card I'm bringing in. I think the correct way to think about it is to evaluate the added value of the card you bring in minus the value of the card you sideboard out. With this philosophy, as I really like every piece of the main deck against aggro control (can vary but usually -1 FTG +1 cabal therapy) and have few to side out against zoo (-4 piledrivers -1 chieftain + 4 pyrokinesis +1 cabal therapy) I really feel the added value of perish is not that high. It is even more questionable when you add to the equation that 3 mana sorcery is a real problem against daze and spell pierce (because they expect perish !). I'd rather play pyrokinesis which is far more efficient against elfball (perish is too slow), maverick, merfolk, affinity, mirror match etc...

Earwig Squad is strong no doubt, but in today's metagame where Goblin is more defensive, don't you think it's harding to get him out? Would you destroy your own army preemptively just to get him out? My concern isn't with Earwig Squad's strenghts, it's with its weaknesses.

I think Perish is more for the aggro match up rather than the aggro control match up.

Yeah, Perish takes up the same slot as Pyrokinesis, so I'm questioning whether you should run them side by side, I'm asking shouldn't you run one over the other. In this case Perish over Pyrokinesis because of your black splash. It just seems stronger against Zoo. I'm not too familiar with the elfball list, but I'm pretty sure Goblin Sharpshooter can handle it. Your fish matchups improve with discard, and the rest is moot.


When sideboarding I don't evaluate the value of the card I'm bringing in. I think the correct way to think about it is to evaluate the added value of the card you bring in minus the value of the card you sideboard out.


Isn't that everyone's philosophy? No one boards in cards because they work, people board in cards because they work better. I'd say boarding out 1 ringleader is a common thing for me since boarding in nongoblin cards that are stronger in the matchup will essentially weaken my ringleaders. Also drawing a ringleader when digger for an answer is also a problem.


This is true. Except you are not playing standard. You are playing legacy. There are so many competitive decks in this format it is insane. So you can in one tournament face ichorid and loose, next time run grave hate and loose against affinity. And next time play artifact removal loose against enchantress, then storm combo etc...

I don't play standard so I wouldn't know. The reason why this metagame is so fun is because of its diversity. You go into it expecting lots of decks. That is why your maindeck has versatility to handle your good matchups while your sideboard is needed to bring in cards against your bad matchups.

If you have nothing to give you leverage against your bad matchups, you'll just fall quickly.

Let's use 43lands as an example since we can all agree that that is a bad match up. What would you sideboard here? Earwig Squad to get the Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm? I think we'd all agree that Blood Moon is a much more narrow card, but provides much more power. This is what I mean by leverage.


You are right. Except my sideboard isn't weak at all. I assure you I feel very powerful when I draw my sideboard cards. They are strong and versatile.
The notable exception is probably ichorid. This is a match-up where my sideboard isn't about quality but quantity. But the deck is really really under the radar right now because everybody else is running grave hate.

These considerations on metagaming the sideboard in a small event are perfectly valid. But this is not what we should discuss on an international board, or you have to give your metagame and justify your targeted sideboard along with. I personnally always play in 50+ people events, so I choose the versatile (and powerful) sideboard.


I don't think this is true. Metagaming exists in small tournaments as well as large tournaments. If you prepare for the more common decks, that is a type of Metagaming. If you'd notice during Kansas, Zoo was nearly non existant. In this case, it would have been safe to not play Perish. A better use of the sideboard would be to play more anti blue cards as a lack of Zoo presence often means a resurgence of fish and Goblins (and affinity apparently).

If you noticed, an example of this Metagaming is the 9th place Counterbalance Top finish. I would expect that he expected there to be little Zoo, hence the lack of maindeck Firespout. He simply opted for pure card advantage with a black splash.


For the third Lord i prefear the King because of Mountainwalk, is auspicable that i wanna use it vs deck with removal or engineered plague and for example vs Zoo i think that King could be stronger because of Mountain-Walk...


I've tried this. Goblin King doesn't work in decks that play Plague since Boartusk Liege barely works against decks that play plague because decks that play plague often have a LOT of spot removal.

Goblin King against Zoo is also not valid. I've tried this as well. It just seems win more if you are winning with it and sucks when you are losing as it can be easily removed from Zoo's 11 spot removal not including Lavamancer. A better option here, that I found, is Goblin Pyromancer. He gets the damage through like Goblin King, but he doesn't need to be in play for that to happen so removal on it doesn't matter at all. It's essentially there for the alpha strike. It is also a card you can sideboard in in the mirror match.

[Lejay]

Yeah, you don't have to sell me Cabal Therapy, I agree with what you said although what I don't agree with is what you say as therapy's possible targets. For your first example about goyf, would you really preemptively therapy for goyf over dropping goblins for a "chance" to hit some future threats? I'm not so sure about that. That is a huge tempo loss drawing valuable coloured mana. For your second examples storm engine/moat/firespout, do you really think therapy would hit these things unless they topdeck them? I'm not so sure since moat/storm engines are usually silver bullets and get tutored out. Unless they draw them, I don't think you'd get that many chances to strip it from them via discard.
My tarmogoyf example would of course be a bad one if you are on the draw and you have an aether vial in hand. Otherwise this is a perfectly acceptable target. This is the creature you are fearing the most. This is the card you are fearing the most. Therefore I'd rather suffer a small tempo loss in "vomiting my hand" rather than have a tarmogoyf in front of me. Also playing cabal as soon means you can flashback it or play another hitting for sure. The turn 2 pildriver on the play/on the draw (preboard) or the turn 1 lackey on the draw are not really important for this deck, so playing cabal is much more safer. When they don't have it, you are in a pretty good shape.
Also once again you can always maximize the use of cabal with mana denial. Use your ports and sometimes waste to slow them down a maximum letting them draw cards. Then name the threat before they would be able to play it.
Of course having stingscourger in hand means I can slowplay my cabal therapy until they play a threat.
About the tutoring effect, yes that can happen. But mystical is banned now. You can also discard the tutor like sterling grove, and you have to learn to name cards like enlightned tutor or brainstorm when they are fulltaped or feel they want to gamble with you to not be in a difficult situation when you flashback.



I know where you are coming from with the stinger vs weirding argument. I myself hated weirding when I played it (that's why I continue to play mono R), but I wouldn't go so far as to have more stingers in a build that runs black since weird is hard removal and stinger is soft. I'm pretty sure most people black black because of weirding and not inspite of it. In terms of spot removal, stinger is better but you have main deck spark smith and sharpshooter to take care of the swarm. I'm sure your weirding can handle the rest.

If you are a monored player by choice I don't understand your opinion.^^ I feel you have the same idea written in stone as a lot of players that Rb = warren weiring and MonoRed = Stingscourger. I remember a discussion on a french forum where I said that the only advantage to playing mono red was improving your manabase and a good player known as goblins adept answered that "no, monored build also has more punch thanks to stingscourger". You are not bound to play warren weirding ! I really like stingscourger better because of all the advantages I said earlier. I really feel 1 warren weirding to tutor is enough (except when playing reanimator of course).
My choice is to run black to have better stingscourgers + squad + a tutorable weirding. Not to run multiple weirdings. You are not a heavy control deck, you just need to gain a little tempo for either kill your opponent or establish board control with FTG, SGC or sparksmith (or Wort if you run it). Also warren weirding is very bad at controlling in a lot of spots.



It gets removed fairly easily in the Zoo matchup, so I'm thinking it's only valid in the aggro-control match up..

Do you keep it in against Zoo?

It's awesome in the AC match-up. I still play it against zoo. It has "must be dealt with" written on it when you had it in your opening hand. It's also a very good option to matron for when they fulltaped for KotR or when you discarded their removal.

Earwig Squad is strong no doubt, but in today's metagame where Goblin is more defensive, don't you think it's harding to get him out? Would you destroy your own army preemptively just to get him out? My concern isn't with Earwig Squad's strenghts, it's with its weaknesses.

I'm not playing the deck more defensively than before. The only real difference in my mind is that zoo is more agressive, and is (has been?) more popular than Taïga was. I feel goblins is considered to be played more defensively because people decided to play cards that are more defensive like MWM and WW because of zoo. I'm not.
With squad playing defensively is not an option. You typically side it in when you are the agressor. Against combo, against control, against aggro-loam etc... Therefore I don't have trouble sacrificing a prospector or matron to play him. Also connecting is not a problem since there is about 0 blockers in the match-ups I side it in. As I said I sideboard according to game plans.

I think Perish is more for the aggro match up rather than the aggro control match up.

Yeah, Perish takes up the same slot as Pyrokinesis, so I'm questioning whether you should run them side by side, I'm asking shouldn't you run one over the other. In this case Perish over Pyrokinesis because of your black splash. It just seems stronger against Zoo. I think the most determining element in not playing perish has been at the very beginning of my testing sessions when I went back to Rb rather than Rg (for main deck sylvan library). I started playing full playset of perish as a start because I had 4 slots. When I sided it in I realised the card was not always effective, sometimes sensible to soft counters, and sometimes too slow. So since I thought as you that the zoo match-up was the best justification of playing it I playtested against zoo without perish in the board. To my own surprise the match-up was about 50/50. Since then I choose to rely on pyrokinesis alone and zoo being less and less played is not going to change my mind.

I'm not too familiar with the elfball list, but I'm pretty sure Goblin Sharpshooter can handle it. You only run 5 of them though, and Elfball has the potential to kill you as soon as turn 2, regularly on turn 3.


Your fish matchups improve with discard, and the rest is moot. Against Merfolk monoU I usually side out discard. I'm a board control deck against a very fast aggro deck so I can't risk topdecking discard when I need goblins to either gain time, deal with the board, or empower my drivers for lethal. However I have to keep the therapies against Ub. It's funny because I can side 4 different ways against merfolk, not considering the other splashes, whether I am against monoU, Ub, on the play or on the draw.
I'm not sure what you mean by moot. But I face these decks regularly, especially maverick which is very popular right now. And perish would be either marginal or completely useless against these decks, while I still have 4 piledrivers in the main that are far from optimal. I think that the survival era underlined how there is a difference between the US and Europe, american players being more inclined to play what is considered the deck with the most raw power, and europeans who prefer metagaming which involves more diversity and evolving trends. It may be because you have regular big tournaments now, so less pet decks in the equation. Also my point is bad if you are not american.^^


Let's use 43lands as an example since we can all agree that that is a bad match up. What would you sideboard here? Earwig Squad to get the Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm? I think we'd all agree that Blood Moon is a much more narrow card, but provides much more power. This is what I mean by leverage.

Well squad removing chiasm and tabernacle is a very good step to winning. How many moons effect do you play ? I play 8 squads + ringleaders. How many match-ups blood moon will be as powerful ? None. It is good against landstill, but so is squad. Also your opponent is very likely to fetch basics because of waste and squad is also far better against enchantress or storm combo.
You can prove everything with examples at MTG. Blood moon is good when you have 2+ people playing 43 lands into a 20 players shop tourney. When this configuration happened to me a few month ago, I sleeved 2 blood moons just before the tournament (and as a side note didn't face them^^). So unless that happens again I'll go with the squads.


If you noticed, an example of this Metagaming is the 9th place Counterbalance Top finish. I would expect that he expected there to be little Zoo, hence the lack of maindeck Firespout. He simply opted for pure card advantage with a black splash.
I know where our points of views diverge. When I am metagaming, 90% of my metagaming consists of choosing the deck, not a sideboard. The last time I played in tournaments it was in an expected meta of survival, storm combo, and no counterbalance. I chose not to play goblins for obvious reasons nor my other favorite doomsday. Instead I chose to play a deck I only played once (at GP Madrid), reanimator, and made top 8 in both events : the 71 players side event on saturday and the 235 players event on sunday.[/cocky]
If people in this thread can't switch decks for budget reasons and can't borrow one, I understand metagaming with silver bullets in not too big tournaments. But you have to keep in mind when discussing about it that this is not optimal for competitive tournament play.

[jin]

My tarmogoyf example would of course be a bad one if you are on the draw and you have an aether vial in hand. Otherwise this is a perfectly acceptable target. ... creature you are fearing the most.
I do not feel that Tarmogoyf is the creature I fear the most. I would say Rhox War Monk is as it has a big butt and can gain life making the race very difficult. Against my Goblin deck, goyfs are at most a 2/3 unless my opponent puts his own stuff in the yard...



About the tutoring effect, yes that can happen. But mystical is banned now. You can also discard the tutor like sterling grove, and you have to learn to name cards like enlightned tutor or brainstorm when they are fulltaped or feel they want to gamble with you to not be in a difficult situation when you flashback.
What i mean is, you can play around their tutors, but their tutors can play around your discard on their silverbullets. Yes mystical tutor is banned but Enlightened Tutor and the one you mentioned Sterling Grove are still in the format.



If you are a monored player by choice I don't understand your opinion.^^ I feel you have the same idea written in stone as a lot of players that Rb = warren weiring and MonoRed = Stingscourger. I remember a discussion on a french forum where I said that the only advantage to playing mono red was improving your manabase and a good player known as goblins adept answered that "no, monored build also has more punch thanks to stingscourger". You are not bound to play warren weirding ! I really like stingscourger better because of all the advantages I said earlier. I really feel 1 warren weirding to tutor is enough (except when playing reanimator of course).
My choice is to run black to have better stingscourgers + squad + a tutorable weirding. Not to run multiple weirdings. You are not a heavy control deck, you just need to gain a little tempo for either kill your opponent or establish board control with FTG, SGC or sparksmith (or Wort if you run it). Also warren weirding is very bad at controlling in a lot of spots. Yes I am monored by choice, but it's not my deck in question right now, it's your's. I feel that if you are going to go through the trouble of weaken your manabase with another colour, why not play actual removal rather than bounce?



against zoo without perish in the board. To my own surprise the match-up was about 50/50. Since then I choose to rely on pyrokinesis alone and zoo being less and less played is not going to change my mind.

This makes sense though as you have an abundance of stingers which can bounce and also block...


Against Merfolk monoU I usually side out discard. I'm a board control deck against a very fast aggro deck so I can't risk topdecking discard when I need goblins to either gain time, deal with the board, or empower my drivers for lethal. However I have to keep the therapies against Ub. It's funny because I can side 4 different ways against merfolk, not considering the other splashes, whether I am against monoU, Ub, on the play or on the draw.
I'm not sure what you mean by moot. But I face these decks regularly, especially maverick which is very popular right now. And perish would be either marginal or completely useless against these decks, while I still have 4 piledrivers in the main that are far from optimal. I think that the survival era underlined how there is a difference between the US and Europe, american players being more inclined to play what is considered the deck with the most raw power, and europeans who prefer metagaming which involves more diversity and evolving trends. It may be because you have regular big tournaments now, so less pet decks in the equation. Also my point is bad if you are not american.^^

moot means they are pointless, or they don't matter. It's pointless to prepare for decks that aren't tier 1 since Goblin's aggro portion should be able to handle them,...

I'm not american, but I still see what you are getting at.



Well squad removing chiasm and tabernacle is a very good step to winning. How many moons effect do you play ? I play 8 squads + ringleaders. How many match-ups blood moon will be as powerful ? None. It is good against landstill, but so is squad. Also your opponent is very likely to fetch basics because of waste and squad is also far better against enchantress or storm combo.
You can prove everything with examples at MTG. Blood moon is good when you have 2+ people playing 43 lands into a 20 players shop tourney. When this configuration happened to me a few month ago, I sleeved 2 blood moons just before the tournament (and as a side note didn't face them^^). So unless that happens again I'll go with the squads. Good answer. I actually don't run Blood Moons, it was just an example. I don't expect lands much.


I know where our points of views diverge. When I am metagaming, 90% of my metagaming consists of choosing the deck, not a sideboard. The last time I played in tournaments it was in an expected meta of survival, storm combo, and no counterbalance. I chose not to play goblins for obvious reasons nor my other favorite doomsday. Instead I chose to play a deck I only played once (at GP Madrid), reanimator, and made top 8 in both events : the 71 players side event on saturday and the 235 players event on sunday.[/cocky]
If people in this thread can't switch decks for budget reasons and can't borrow one, I understand metagaming with silver bullets in not too big tournaments. But you have to keep in mind when discussing about it that this is not optimal for competitive tournament play.

well, I think if you are stubborn like me, knowing the metagame will help you better prepare your sideboard. I don't like the idea of sswitching decks because the environment is too harsh for it. I feel a Tier 1 deck should be able to handle it, although players a lot better than I would beg to differ.

[Lejay]

I do not feel that Tarmogoyf is the creature I fear the most. I would say Rhox War Monk is as it has a big butt and can gain life making the race very difficult. Against my Goblin deck, goyfs are at most a 2/3 unless my opponent puts his own stuff in the yard...

Well a 2/3 or a 3/4 goyf in the first 3 turns doesn't really matter as you don't have 3/3s in your deck, at least at this stage. The important thing is that it is coming down one turn earlier, is more difficult to block (pildedriver handles RWM) and will grow in the future turns. And in these futures turns it will be more difficult do kill the goyf with sparksmith or gempalm.
Also my example was kind of general about turn 2 goyf turn 3 knight. This is valid against bant but also zoo or the rock which is definitively a DTB.


What i mean is, you can play around their tutors, but their tutors can play around your discard on their silverbullets. Yes mystical tutor is banned but Enlightened Tutor and the one you mentioned Sterling Grove are still in the format.
Ok. But even in this case they still have to resolve it next turn which is not always possible thanks to port and waste.

Yes I am monored by choice, but it's not my deck in question right now, it's your's. I feel that if you are going to go through the trouble of weaken your manabase with another colour, why not play actual removal rather than bounce?
If you only consider bounce vs removal it looks like removal is better. But this is targeted bounce versus edict effect where the targeted bounce has the potential to be targeted removal + that can deal damage, time walk freely out of a vial, that can be uncounterable and played as an instant, that is synergistic with gempalm, etc...
So this is far from being black and white here. I made the uncommon choice of not playing warren weirding after weakening my mana base but I really feel it is all in all the best one.


well, I think if you are stubborn like me, knowing the metagame will help you better prepare your sideboard. I don't like the idea of sswitching decks because the environment is too harsh for it. I feel a Tier 1 deck should be able to handle it, although players a lot better than I would beg to differ.
Yes a tier 1 deck is supposed to handle the metagame with small adaptations in the sb or the main deck. But goblins was no longer a deck to beat in this metagame and I prefer to opt for the solution with the overall best expectation. Facing the decks I faced in these events (combo, burn, zoo and survival mainly) I really don't think I would have been able to top8 twice with goblins whatever my adjustments were.

[Lorenzo767]

More i Test less i know what to play on my Sideboard...Tsk i can't make up my mind about wich side play...i posted two times my decklist... i need to build a sideboard that could be used in a various and unknown metagame, where i think i could meet a large number of Rogue Deck...

[jrw1985]

More i Test less i know what to play on my Sideboard...Tsk i can't make up my mind about wich side play...i posted two times my decklist... i need to build a sideboard that could be used in a various and unknown metagame, where i think i could meet a large number of Rogue Deck...

I checked out your decklist.
First, i would cut Wort and run a 4th Gempalm. Wort just is too damn slow, and Gempalm is simply amazing. It should always be a 4-of.

SB-
4 Tormod's Crypt (OR 2 Crypt and 2 Faerie Macabre)
4 Chalice of the Void (Or 2 Chalice and 2 Cabal Therapy)
4 Pyrokinesis (Or a combination of Pyro and Perish, but no more than 2 Perish)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

Goblin King isn't that good, so i cut him entirely from your side. I think you want to run 4 pieces of graveyard hate instead of 3, since Dredge is one of these decks you really need to mull into hate against. I prefer Chalice over Therapy because it slows down combo without slowing you down, and it can be played turn 1 for 0 without disrupting your board development. Therapy is a good card, but it's really better against control than combo (since it can grab ALL the FoWs from your opponents' hands [not that I would side it in for that, but that's how Cabal Therapy is usaully used in other decks- generally combo decks like Aluren, SurvivalOoze, Dredge]). Perish shouldn't be a 3 of. You'd much rather run Pyrokinesis because it's better against Goblins, Merfolk, Painter's Servant, blah blah blah, and it can be played on turn 1 for 0. Perish can only be played turn 3+, so while there might still be room for 1 or 2 in your side, I'd stick with Pyro generally. K Grip is very good. I used to run Rbg too, and I always played around my Taigas G1 and fetched into them G2 as needed. This produced a lot of surprise from my opponents that weren't even thinking about the possibility of me playing enchantment removal after G1.

[jin]

More i Test less i know what to play on my Sideboard...Tsk i can't make up my mind about wich side play...i posted two times my decklist... i need to build a sideboard that could be used in a various and unknown metagame, where i think i could meet a large number of Rogue Deck...

It could also be because of your sideboarding method. I think sometimes it's good to read some reports so you know how you sideboard differently compared to other people. I agree with many of the changes jrw1985 suggests though.

I'm also skeptical about kiki-jiki. I think there was a discussion about him last year. Seige-gang just seems better.


Well a 2/3 or a 3/4 goyf in the first 3 turns doesn't really matter as you don't have 3/3s in your deck, at least at this stage. The important thing is that it is coming down one turn earlier, is more difficult to block (pildedriver handles RWM) and will grow in the future turns. And in these futures turns it will be more difficult do kill the goyf with sparksmith or gempalm.
Also my example was kind of general about turn 2 goyf turn 3 knight. This is valid against bant but also zoo or the rock which is definitively a DTB.
Ok. But even in this case they still have to resolve it next turn which is not always possible thanks to port and waste.

It doesn't gain life. I'll still tank it or chump it. Yeah KOTR and goyf together is scary, but that's largely due to KOTR. The board shouldn't get so out of hand anyway. I don't think a Zoo player will have the balls to tap out against Goblins. Those that do usually lose them.


If you only consider bounce vs removal it looks like removal is better. But this is targeted bounce versus edict effect where the targeted bounce has the potential to be targeted removal + that can deal damage, time walk freely out of a vial, that can be uncounterable and played as an instant, that is synergistic with gempalm, etc...
So this is far from being black and white here. I made the uncommon choice of not playing warren weirding after weakening my mana base but I really feel it is all in all the best one.

Yeah stinger has a lot of merits.

[Lorenzo767]

I checked out your decklist.
First, i would cut Wort and run a 4th Gempalm. Wort just is too damn slow, and Gempalm is simply amazing. It should always be a 4-of.

SB-
4 Tormod's Crypt (OR 2 Crypt and 2 Faerie Macabre)
4 Chalice of the Void (Or 2 Chalice and 2 Cabal Therapy)
4 Pyrokinesis (Or a combination of Pyro and Perish, but no more than 2 Perish)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

Goblin King isn't that good, so i cut him entirely from your side. I think you want to run 4 pieces of graveyard hate instead of 3, since Dredge is one of these decks you really need to mull into hate against. I prefer Chalice over Therapy because it slows down combo without slowing you down, and it can be played turn 1 for 0 without disrupting your board development. Therapy is a good card, but it's really better against control than combo (since it can grab ALL the FoWs from your opponents' hands [not that I would side it in for that, but that's how Cabal Therapy is usaully used in other decks- generally combo decks like Aluren, SurvivalOoze, Dredge]). Perish shouldn't be a 3 of. You'd much rather run Pyrokinesis because it's better against Goblins, Merfolk, Painter's Servant, blah blah blah, and it can be played on turn 1 for 0. Perish can only be played turn 3+, so while there might still be room for 1 or 2 in your side, I'd stick with Pyro generally. K Grip is very good. I used to run Rbg too, and I always played around my Taigas G1 and fetched into them G2 as needed. This produced a lot of surprise from my opponents that weren't even thinking about the possibility of me playing enchantment removal after G1.

As i said in another post Kiki and Wort are two card on doubt, the could be a Bomb at the same thime they can be too slow...But Kiki could be alone a winning condition if i have in play any one of Ringleader,Matron or Siege-Gang..
About the side, i agree with you about the 4 Graveyard Hate, but i think could be better to play 3 Krosan Grip instead of 2, ok it's a bit slow but it's really great and also play the third color that give less stabilyt to my mana base just for 2+1 card i think it's not the best...
Pyrokinesis without doubt it's a great card but i fear more deck like zoo then mirror or merfolk...
So Maybe i Could Try something like 4 Tormod 4 Chalice 3 Perish 3 Krosan Grip 1 Tin Street...
What do you think of Earwig Squad? I tested it a few and i think it's a good card but in the MU where it can be used (first of all Combo) it would be too slow...
Chalice is a good option, i can use it of course vs storm combo ( setting it at 0 or 1) or vs Zoo (if i set it a 1 they lose a lot of spell StP,PtE,Bolt,Nacatl,Lion,Ape,) but maybe be Therapy could be more performative...i don't know i might test...the bigget problem is that i don't know what is the metagame that i could find at the tournament because i'm new of the format and here in my zone this fantastic format is not really famous...
Ah, the last thing: What do you think of MWM i read a lot of different opinion...

[jrw1985]

As i said in another post Kiki and Wort are two card on doubt, the could be a Bomb at the same thime they can be too slow...But Kiki could be alone a winning condition if i have in play any one of Ringleader,Matron or Siege-Gang..
About the side, i agree with you about the 4 Graveyard Hate, but i think could be better to play 3 Krosan Grip instead of 2, ok it's a bit slow but it's really great and also play the third color that give less stabilyt to my mana base just for 2+1 card i think it's not the best...
Pyrokinesis without doubt it's a great card but i fear more deck like zoo then mirror or merfolk...
So Maybe i Could Try something like 4 Tormod 4 Chalice 3 Perish 3 Krosan Grip 1 Tin Street...
What do you think of Earwig Squad? I tested it a few and i think it's a good card but in the MU where it can be used (first of all Combo) it would be too slow...
Chalice is a good option, i can use it of course vs storm combo ( setting it at 0 or 1) or vs Zoo (if i set it a 1 they lose a lot of spell StP,PtE,Bolt,Nacatl,Lion,Ape,) but maybe be Therapy could be more performative...i don't know i might test...the bigget problem is that i don't know what is the metagame that i could find at the tournament because i'm new of the format and here in my zone this fantastic format is not really famous...
Ah, the last thing: What do you think of MWM i read a lot of different opinion...

On the Zoo match: Don't be afraid! You don't need to make beating Zoo the be-all and end-all of your sideboard. Zoo isn't that bad of a match. Start off by eating the first 10 points of damage while you build your horde. Then start using your gempalms to burn out his guys and double or triple block his attackers to put creatures in his graveyard. It doesn't matter if you're getting 2 or 3-for-1ed because you will draw a shit-ton of cards from your Matrons, Ringleaders, Gempalms, seige-Gangs, and MWM. Zoo can't draw cards so you will win the battle of attrition. Just make sure you don't dip too far below 10 life. Zoo can easily burn you out if you're at 7 life or less. When I sideboard against Zoo i usually take out Piledrivers and side in removal (Pyrokinesis, Perish). Piledriver is always a removal magnet, so just siding him out is a pretty easy choice. MWM shines against Zoo because it pumps your Gempalms and puts a lotta chumpers into play to keep you above that critical 10 life. Pyrokinesis is also awesome against Zoo because it can blast Lavamancer, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Figure of Destiny... you know, guys Perish is useless against. So it's not all a Perish party, and I think you shouldn't rely so completely on that one card.

Earwig Squad- I've gone back and forth. I initially thought it was great againt combo, but then it dawned on me that he can't hit cards in hand. That makes him pretty useless against ANT/TES. He's also pretty slow. Best case scenario, you play him turn 2 (Lackey, Warchief, Earwig prowl). That makes him pretty bad against Belcher too. He really shines in control matchups though, when he strips their deck of Moat, E Plagues, or Jitte. Unfortunately, that's a pretty conditional application. Since he only hits 3 cards you can't really strip their deck of an essential combo anyway, so it makes him of limited usefulness against decks like Show and Tell, Painter's Servant, Aluren and what-have-you. So I don't feel the need to run him anymore. I'd rather just have the Chalices to guarantee locking out the free artifact mana on T1.

In summation:
Chalice good
Pyrokinesis good
Perish ok
Earwig ok
MWM good

[jin]

As i said in another post Kiki and Wort are two card on doubt, the could be a Bomb at the same thime they can be too slow...But Kiki could be alone a winning condition if i have in play any one of Ringleader,Matron or Siege-Gang..

Ah, the last thing: What do you think of MWM i read a lot of different opinion...

Sorry, I didn't read your previous thread. That doesn't sound like Kiki-jiki alone, it sounds like Kiki-jiki with a Ringleader, Matron or Seige-Gang. To parody you: Seige-Gang alone is a winning condition.

MWM is good in an aggressive metagame. He can block and stall. He might even draw removal if you are lucky making him card advantage.

[Lorenzo767]

On the Zoo match: Don't be afraid! You don't need to make beating Zoo the be-all and end-all of your sideboard. Zoo isn't that bad of a match. Start off by eating the first 10 points of damage while you build your horde. Then start using your gempalms to burn out his guys and double or triple block his attackers to put creatures in his graveyard. It doesn't matter if you're getting 2 or 3-for-1ed because you will draw a shit-ton of cards from your Matrons, Ringleaders, Gempalms, seige-Gangs, and MWM. Zoo can't draw cards so you will win the battle of attrition. Just make sure you don't dip too far below 10 life. Zoo can easily burn you out if you're at 7 life or less. When I sideboard against Zoo i usually take out Piledrivers and side in removal (Pyrokinesis, Perish). Piledriver is always a removal magnet, so just siding him out is a pretty easy choice. MWM shines against Zoo because it pumps your Gempalms and puts a lotta chumpers into play to keep you above that critical 10 life. Pyrokinesis is also awesome against Zoo because it can blast Lavamancer, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Figure of Destiny... you know, guys Perish is useless against. So it's not all a Perish party, and I think you shouldn't rely so completely on that one card.

Earwig Squad- I've gone back and forth. I initially thought it was great againt combo, but then it dawned on me that he can't hit cards in hand. That makes him pretty useless against ANT/TES. He's also pretty slow. Best case scenario, you play him turn 2 (Lackey, Warchief, Earwig prowl). That makes him pretty bad against Belcher too. He really shines in control matchups though, when he strips their deck of Moat, E Plagues, or Jitte. Unfortunately, that's a pretty conditional application. Since he only hits 3 cards you can't really strip their deck of an essential combo anyway, so it makes him of limited usefulness against decks like Show and Tell, Painter's Servant, Aluren and what-have-you. So I don't feel the need to run him anymore. I'd rather just have the Chalices to guarantee locking out the free artifact mana on T1.

In summation:
Chalice good
Pyrokinesis good
Perish ok
Earwig ok
MWM good
I will Try Chalice and Pyrokinesis...and see what happen!
About Earwig i think we have the same opinion..i will maybe try it again but i think i will not use it on the ultimate build ^^





Sorry, I didn't read your previous thread. That doesn't sound like Kiki-jiki alone, it sounds like Kiki-jiki with a Ringleader, Matron or Seige-Gang. To parody you: Seige-Gang alone is a winning condition.

MWM is good in an aggressive metagame. He can block and stall. He might even draw removal if you are lucky making him card advantage.




LOL :D Ok, i overdo with the description of Kiki.
For what about MWM i will decide in base of what is the metagame i will find.
Another doubt it's if play 22 o 23 land, because teorically 22 it's ok but sometimes i had some problem of Screw, and i also need a good number of land drop to flood the filed with the Green Killer xD
I also want to know what u think is the best between Kiki and Worth ( i know they are both slow)...

Ofter some little test i think i will leave Kiki for 1 Skirk prospector and maybe 1 Chieftain for the 4th Gempalm, i will continue to test Worth, in mirro it can win alone by recursion of EVERYTHING in particular gempalm...but i will see

Another question is about the graveyard hate:
Is better Tormod's/relic or Leyline of the void???

[Vandalize]

jin and Lejay were talking about the Elfball matchup. This is another matchup where CotV @1 simply kills the deck. If they board in some KGrips or something, CotV can delay them two or three turns, and you can OFTEN find a sharpshooter in time.

I play monoR list with 4 CotV in board. And it has been REALLY useful against the Zoo matchup. Starting off with a Vial turn 1, followed by a turn 2 CotV @1 means shutting off their spot removal (in form of Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Path to Exile, Grim Lavamancer and still hit semi-big dudes like Wild Nacatl, Loam Lion and Kird Ape).

I use this sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Shattering Spree
1 TukTuk Scrapper

And I usually side like this against Zoo:

+4 CotV
+3 Pyrokinesis
-3 Piledriver
-3 Lightning Bolt (weak with CotV)
-1 SGC

[jin]

jin and Lejay were talking about the Elfball matchup. This is another matchup where CotV @1 simply kills the deck. If they board in some KGrips or something, CotV can delay them two or three turns, and you can OFTEN find a sharpshooter in time.

I play monoR list with 4 CotV in board. And it has been REALLY useful against the Zoo matchup. Starting off with a Vial turn 1, followed by a turn 2 CotV @1 means shutting off their spot removal (in form of Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Path to Exile, Grim Lavamancer and still hit semi-big dudes like Wild Nacatl, Loam Lion and Kird Ape).

I use this sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Shattering Spree
1 TukTuk Scrapper

And I usually side like this against Zoo:

+4 CotV
+3 Pyrokinesis
-3 Piledriver
-3 Lightning Bolt (weak with CotV)
-1 SGC

I used to board in Chalice against Zoo but have moved on from that since Pridemage. Has Pridemage been a thorn in your side in this match up? (no puns intended)

[Vandalize]

If you can keep up the manadenial, Pridemages can't hit the battlefield, since Zoo has a very nonbasic manabase. Still, they only run 2~3 Pridemages main deck, it's not very likely for them to have it. If they do enter the battlefield, you can hold your chalice and Pyrokinesis/Bolt the pridemage before laying it down.

[Nelis]

And I usually side like this against Zoo:

+4 CotV
+3 Pyrokinesis
-3 Piledriver
-3 Lightning Bolt (weak with CotV)
-1 SGC

I thought Lightning Bolts were added primarily for the Zoo match-up. But if you board them out vs zoo why dilute your main deck with non goblins spells in the first place?

[GoboLord]

I thought Lightning Bolts were added primarily for the Zoo match-up. But if you board them out vs zoo why dilute your main deck with non goblins spells in the first place?

I second that!!! (adding another 1 milion "!"s)
Bolt is killer against Zoo: it kills almost every creature they have.
Chalice is an awful topdeck and does nothing after turn 3 or 4, while Bolt is always welcome in this MU. Going for the manadenial plan is a really bad idea in the first few turns, because it costs a lot of time and resources...and most important thing: you have problems summoning defenses when you are busy with manadenial - and thats what you need to do in the entire game. You don't need to shut anything down in their deck because they will run out of resources very quickly, while you can refill your hand and board with Matron, Ringleader and SGC.

[jin]

If you can keep up the manadenial, Pridemages can't hit the battlefield, since Zoo has a very nonbasic manabase. Still, they only run 2~3 Pridemages main deck, it's not very likely for them to have it. If they do enter the battlefield, you can hold your chalice and Pyrokinesis/Bolt the pridemage before laying it down.

I don't know, Goblin's mana denial plan isn't that consistant. I wouldn't try to rely on that. It just kinda shows up. Maybe because I'm not running the full set of 4 ports anymore.

Ah,.. my teammate runs 4x pridemage. I guess his deck isn't as traditional and is tuned to fight off Countertop and Vial decks..

[stumPen]

I`m very happy with my Solution against Zoo. Running 4 MWM main helps a lot and even in Control Match Ups MWM is a nice beater with my 3 Cheiftain main.
I normally side in 3 Perish and 3 Cabal Therapy which helps to slow Zoo down much faster. Last time my Zoo opponent was out of hand cards on turn 3 which was very nice.

Normally I run a 3c list for Cabal Therapy, Perish, Extirpate and Krosan Grip but I try to find a way to build just a 2c list. But i still like the Krosan Grip for early Dreadnoughts or mass stalling action from ThopterFoundry.

Any advise what to change. Here is my 3c list:

4 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matrone
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Sieg-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
4 AEtherVial

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Stingscouger
1 Goblin Tinkerer

The next changes will be:
-1 WW
+1 Port
-1 Badland
+1 Wooded Foothills

Actually I like to play Lightning Bolt, too. But I can not find any place because the Plan B with MWM + Chieftain is petty amazing against AggroControl if they can handle my Piledriver. But without Survival and more CB I will go additionally to -1 Chieftain to have one Slot and of course -1 MWM +1 Piledriver

[jin]

I`m very happy with my Solution against Zoo. Running 4 MWM main helps a lot and even in Control Match Ups MWM is a nice beater with my 3 Cheiftain main.
I normally side in 3 Perish and 3 Cabal Therapy which helps to slow Zoo down much faster. Last time my Zoo opponent was out of hand cards on turn 3 which was very nice.

Normally I run a 3c list for Cabal Therapy, Perish, Extirpate and Krosan Grip but I try to find a way to build just a 2c list. But i still like the Krosan Grip for early Dreadnoughts or mass stalling action from ThopterFoundry.

Any advise what to change. Here is my 3c list:

4 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matrone
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Sieg-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
4 AEtherVial

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Stingscouger
1 Goblin Tinkerer

The next changes will be:
-1 WW
+1 Port
-1 Badland
+1 Wooded Foothills

Actually I like to play Lightning Bolt, too. But I can not find any place because the Plan B with MWM + Chieftain is petty amazing against AggroControl if they can handle my Piledriver. But without Survival and more CB I will go additionally to -1 Chieftain to have one Slot and of course -1 MWM +1 Piledriver

Wow, you want to play Lightning Bolt along side Mogg War Marshal and Perish? You must really hate Zoo. In my experience even one or two Mogg War Marshalls (three in my previous main) and one or two Sting Scourgers are enough to beat Zoo. There late game really means nothing to Goblins. If you can push it to late game, you've won.

[stumPen]

Zoo was not main reason to put in MWM. MWM makes Gempalm, Chieftain, Piledriver and Cabal Therapy much more powerful. Also the alternative beat down plan via Cieftain und MWM is pretty amazing. Besides MWM is better for Dredge MU wich is pretty hard if the Dredge player is able to play and know its deck. Anyway ... the main reason is Cabal Therapy which sooooo powerfull with MWM. If you have a fast Therapy twice even Combo looks very sad. I really love that guy and my list. And thats why I wanna get some more opinions ...

Btw. yes Zoo everytime beats my ass before a change the main. Now i nearly have no problems.

[jin]

Zoo was not main reason to put in MWM. MWM makes Gempalm, Chieftain, Piledriver and Cabal Therapy much more powerful. Also the alternative beat down plan via Cieftain und MWM is pretty amazing. Besides MWM is better for Dredge MU wich is pretty hard if the Dredge player is able to play and know its deck. Anyway ... the main reason is Cabal Therapy which sooooo powerfull with MWM. If you have a fast Therapy twice even Combo looks very sad. I really love that guy and my list. And thats why I wanna get some more opinions ...

Btw. yes Zoo everytime beats my ass before a change the main. Now i nearly have no problems.

uhh,.. I think the main reason was because Mogg Fanatic wasn't as awesome anymore and MWM was the next best thing. I highly doubt it was because of Cabal Therapy as Therapy wasn't played until the Black splash became popular.. which if I recall was shortly after Mogg Fanatic's nerf and the introduction of Warren Weirding...

I think the synergies it has with Piledriver/Gempalm Incinerator/Chieftain are largely byproducts of its inclusion over Mogg Fanatic rather than the direct cause. Although, I still support Mogg Fanatic.

[Lorenzo767]

I have a question about the graveyard hate to play in SB i wan't to try Leyline of The Void instead of Tormod's/Relic what do you think about that?
Have anyone tested Leyline in the RB version's side???

[jin]

I have a question about the graveyard hate to play in SB i wan't to try Leyline of The Void instead of Tormod's/Relic what do you think about that?
Have anyone tested Leyline in the RB version's side???

lots of people..
go 10 pages back to 290.. Gobolord and a few others had a whole discussion about it..

[TheSleeper]

So what is the consensus over Lightning Bolt vs. Skirk/Sharpshooter package? I've ran 4 Bolt MD in previous months and been happy with it. However with a Sharpshooter list winning an SCG Open I'm beginning to wonder in which Meta it would thrive. Recently a couple of Elves decks have also popped up, which I found to be a horrible matchup without 'Shooter (haven't tested with him).

Also can anyone speak on how/when to use Skirk Prospector? Obviously he combos with Sharpshooter, but assuming you don't have one, how often do you use him to ramp into Ringleader/SCG? Other obvious uses I'm guessing involve block-sacrificing to avoid opponents lifelink/Jitte counters etc. Just wondering if there are other tricks I should know with him.

[Avatara]

I've play tested several matches vs Red Rock (Firesprout main deck) and I was playing the list that won Starcity games. The best cards I've used in the match-up where: my best cards were: Skirk Prospector, Rishadan Port, Siege-Gang Commander and Wasteland. The worst cards were: Gempalm Incinerator and Sharpshooter. I used Skirk Prospector to ramp into Matrons, Ringleaders, activate Siege-Gang and make Maelstrom Pulse fail on my tokens. The only thing that Sharpshooter did in that match-up was chump block and ping 1 damage to the face ones.

I also played a few games vs Eva Green but I couldn't win even a single game. Gempalm Incinerators didn't do anything in the match-up and the Tomb Stalkers were beating me really fast. Did I miss my Stingscourgers in that match-up!

[Vandalize]

You can use Prospector to activate Rishadan Port in the other player's upkeep if don't have enough mana to activate it, or a Lightning Bolt EOT when you're tapped out. You can sacrifice a Swords to Plowshares target and recover with Wort, Boggart Auntie. You can use for Jitte/Lifelink. Untaping Sharpshooter. Add 3 mana with Mogg War Marshal (and a lot of damage if Sharpshooter is on the battlefield). Sacrifice it, or any goblin, to remove Bridge From Below. Sacrifice it to add mana to SCG when there's a Moat laying arround. Or simply sacrifice to add mana.

[jrw1985]

Two weeks in a row! Goblins has once again won this week's SCG Open San Jose. And (once again) a 2nd Goblin deck made the top 8 also. Well done, gobbos.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20947_Legacy_Open_Top_8_Profiles.html

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Vial Red has been doing very well lately :smile:

[jin]

You can use Prospector to activate Rishadan Port in the other player's upkeep if don't have enough mana to activate it, or a Lightning Bolt EOT when you're tapped out. You can sacrifice a Swords to Plowshares target and recover with Wort, Boggart Auntie. You can use for Jitte/Lifelink. Untaping Sharpshooter. Add 3 mana with Mogg War Marshal (and a lot of damage if Sharpshooter is on the battlefield). Sacrifice it, or any goblin, to remove Bridge From Below. Sacrifice it to add mana to SCG when there's a Moat laying arround. Or simply sacrifice to add mana.

is sacrificing a goblin worth it to port them down for a turn?
lol.. mogg war marshal is a pyretic ritual..
It seem slike skirk prospector's usefulness is limited... I'm still hesitant to include him in my list.

with my testing, I never want to sacrifice goblins for mana.. as the trade would be too great if I pitched a goblin to drop a warchief and then have that thing plowed later on. hmm,.. now that I think about it, i'm guessing I'm supposed to drop CA goblins like Ringleader and Matron.. although, I am still skeptical about throwing another goblin just to drop matron..

If i'm down on lands, I wouldn't want to drop ringleader anyway and matron wouldn't be helpful if I needed to pitch a goblin to drop a 3 drop..

[stumPen]

Its very strange to play Prospector. How many copier your are running? I think it is not worth to play him more than 1x. I why should I add a 1off Goblin which has totally less pressure on the board than any other Goblin (except Lackey in Lategame). I also never used matrone to get him. I still think SGC, Ringleader or even Kiki is a much better target for Matrone than a 1/1 mana Goblin.

[Justin]

is sacrificing a goblin worth it to port them down for a turn?
lol.. mogg war marshal is a pyretic ritual..
It seem slike skirk prospector's usefulness is limited... I'm still hesitant to include him in my list.

with my testing, I never want to sacrifice goblins for mana.. as the trade would be too great if I pitched a goblin to drop a warchief and then have that thing plowed later on. hmm,.. now that I think about it, i'm guessing I'm supposed to drop CA goblins like Ringleader and Matron.. although, I am still skeptical about throwing another goblin just to drop matron..

If i'm down on lands, I wouldn't want to drop ringleader anyway and matron wouldn't be helpful if I needed to pitch a goblin to drop a 3 drop..

I agree the Skirk's Prospector's usefulness is limited, but I like him as a one-of. Obviously, he combos really well with Sharpshooter to get your opponent to zero life. He can also be helpful with echo goblins that you are going to lose anyway, such as War Marshal and Stingscourger. He can also accelerate your deck early and allow you to keep some opening hands without Lackey or Vial. For example, you can drop Prospector on turn one. Then on turn two you can play a second land and then sac the Prospector to itself to cast a turn two Warchief. Then, you can go nuts on turn three by dumping out piledrivers, war marshals, etc. and go for a huge swing. Yeah, if you are playing against a deck with a bunch of removal or get hit by daze, you get get two-for-oned. However, against combo decks Propector improves your chances of attacking for lethal by turn three or four.

[raindrainxi]

with warchief in play, you can convert tokens into piledrivers, MWMs, stingers etc. Yes it is limited, but by being creative, the things it can do can win you games. i know i did.

[jin]

I agree the Skirk's Prospector's usefulness is limited, but I like him as a one-of. Obviously, he combos really well with Sharpshooter to get your opponent to zero life. He can also be helpful with echo goblins that you are going to lose anyway, such as War Marshal and Stingscourger. He can also accelerate your deck early and allow you to keep some opening hands without Lackey or Vial. For example, you can drop Prospector on turn one. Then on turn two you can play a second land and then sac the Prospector to itself to cast a turn two Warchief. Then, you can go nuts on turn three by dumping out piledrivers, war marshals, etc. and go for a huge swing. Yeah, if you are playing against a deck with a bunch of removal or get hit by daze, you get get two-for-oned. However, against combo decks Propector improves your chances of attacking for lethal by turn three or four.

If you play a deck that doesn't have daze or doesn't have removal, you are pretty much only talking about combo. Every other deck in the format either plays removal or plays countermagic.

However, you make a good point in that it does improve the combo match up. That I like. You also bring up a good point where you can race combo even without lackey. This would make me consider putting skirk prospector on my sideboard to compliment my Lackey in the combo match up. I'd have to test it first of course as my sideboard is pretty packed....


with warchief in play, you can convert tokens into piledrivers, MWMs, stingers etc. Yes it is limited, but by being creative, the things it can do can win you games. i know i did.

If you have tokens and warchief in play, it sounds like you are already winning. You probably already have the mana to drop Piledriver, Mogg War Marshal and Stinger since they only cost 1 mana. I wouldn't sacrifice tokens for it at all.

[Tom T]

If you play a deck that doesn't have daze or doesn't have removal, you are pretty much only talking about combo. Every other deck in the format either plays removal or plays countermagic.

However, you make a good point in that it does improve the combo match up. That I like. You also bring up a good point where you can race combo even without lackey. This would make me consider putting skirk prospector on my sideboard to compliment my Lackey in the combo match up. I'd have to test it first of course as my sideboard is pretty packed....



If you have tokens and warchief in play, it sounds like you are already winning. You probably already have the mana to drop Piledriver, Mogg War Marshal and Stinger since they only cost 1 mana. I wouldn't sacrifice tokens for it at all.

Skirk Prospector opens a lot of options. With a Warchief and a couple of tokens next to it you can matron for a shooter/ringleader and cast it imediatly. You can also play your ringleader-gobbo's this way. I (almost) always want more mana when I play the deck.

I often matron for him when I am about to face a Jitte pre-board.

The point is: with Skirk Prospector, you can do a lot of extra things while it only takes one slot.

[bkwrds]

This is pretty much apropos of nothing, but I am building my first Legacy deck and obviously my first Goblins deck overall.

While searching creature type - Goblin, I came across Shrieking Mogg. Card looks useful in preventing an opposing alpha strike, and even slowing down some real big bads (Progenitus) for a turn. Has this card ever been considered, even as a 1-of Matron target? Only worth playing if you typically have Vial set at 2. Is that the case with most Goblins builds?

I credit this thread for my decision to build a Goblins deck. Thanks to all the posters for all the information they share.

[TheSleeper]

bkwrds: I don't think I've ever seen Shrieking Mogg discussed here, and it never hurts to evaluate forgotten-about-cards. That said, Goblins decks are notoriously pretty tight. There are a handful of 'flex slots. These what I would say the most common flex slot uses are:
-Tin-Street Hooligan
-Weirding/Lightning Bolt
-Upping your MWM/Gempalm count
-tricks like Skirk/Sharpshooter, Kikki-Jikki or Wort
-Warren Instigator

So Shrieking Mogg will be competing with the above. Seems at its best when as you say, you have Vial on 2, you EOT vial it in, allowing you to Alpha Strike your opponent. This is IMO a pretty corner case. Some of the above will help you out of these 'stand-offs' (SCG, Sharpshooter, Kikki, Wort) while also being useful in other situations. At least when I've played Goblins, the longer the game goes, your Vials creep up to 3, then 4, even 5 counters. I wouldn't want to have to keep a Vial on 2 just to use a singleton Shrieking Mogg.

[bkwrds]

Sleeper's well-considered reply

Fair enough. The main attraction I saw wasn't the evasion it offered (Piledriver is better) or the ability to stave off your opponent's alpha (War Marshall seems better) but rather the ability to deal with NO/Progenitus, since it seems prevalent in my area... that is, from my exceptionally limited experience. Is Weirding your best out against Progenitus?

[TossUsToLions]

EDIT: Im an idiot, i totally thought it was tapping opponent's creatures only. That would be absurd...

[Amon Amarth]

Fair enough. The main attraction I saw wasn't the evasion it offered (Piledriver is better) or the ability to stave off your opponent's alpha (War Marshall seems better) but rather the ability to deal with NO/Progenitus, since it seems prevalent in my area... that is, from my exceptionally limited experience. Is Weirding your best out against Progenitus?

Weirding is good. Progenitus is blue so double Piledriver alpha strike is pretty easy to pull off, especially since the fastest it comes out is turn 3 and you can just swarm them pretty easy.

[bakofried]

Goblin Wardriver RR
Creature - Goblin Warrior U
Battle Cry (Whenever this creature attacks, each other attacking creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn)
2/2

Thoughts?

[from Cairo]

Goblin Wardriver RR
Creature - Goblin Warrior U
Battle Cry (Whenever this creature attacks, each other attacking creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn)
2/2

Thoughts?

Seems like a worse Goblin Piledriver. I guess if one was looking for Drivers 5-6, this could be considered. Actually this might even fall behind Goblin Bushwhacker in terms of playability.

[raindrainxi]

Goblin Wardriver RR
Creature - Goblin Warrior U
Battle Cry (Whenever this creature attacks, each other attacking creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn)
2/2

Thoughts?

is this confirmed? there has been a lot of fake images regarding this goblin wardriver.

although if it is, i agree, it is just a more expensive piledriver, with weaker results.

[Avatara]

I don't think that Goblin Wardriver will see play. For :1: more you get a "permanent" +1/+1 and haste for all of you goblins. It doesn't get reduced by Warchief like Piledriver does. Why would we possibly want to play it? It's no alpha strike enabler (Like Pyromancer and Piledriver) and it's really bad with a low amount of goblins on the board or as a top deck.

[antonbystedt]

Goblin Wardriver would have been decent if the mana cost would be 1R. But now it's way to bad for legacy. There are alot better goblins to choose from, also it's way worse than Goblin Piledriver, and some Goblin decks that has had good results have been playing Goblin Piledriver as a 3off.

[jin]

I don't know about everyone skepticism. I've been looking for more piledrivers for the combo match up as I've decided that if I don't want to pack any more non-goblin sideboard cards, I need a double piledriver hand to race combo. I average turn 4 kills without double piledriver. I'm thinking with more piledrivers, I could increase the odds of a possible turn 3 kill. I'm not sure though...

I'd be nice to have piledriver 5-7 for this purpose....

[Justin]

I don't know about everyone skepticism. I've been looking for more piledrivers for the combo match up as I've decided that if I don't want to pack any more non-goblin sideboard cards, I need a double piledriver hand to race combo. I average turn 4 kills without double piledriver. I'm thinking with more piledrivers, I could increase the odds of a possible turn 3 kill. I'm not sure though...

I'd be nice to have piledriver 5-7 for this purpose....

I don't think this makes the maindeck or even the sideboard. The RRcc keeps it from improving your combo matchup. Your best chance for a turn three kill is to get a turn two Warchief via Lackey or Prospector. With Piledriver, you can play them for R and dump as many as three of them (hasted) on the board by turn three. Wardriver still costs RR, whether you have a warchief or not. Plus, Piledriver adds +2 for each other attacking goblin, while Wardriver only adds +1. Wardriver may be good in Standard goblins, but it has no place in Legacy. At RR, I would rather play Warren Instigator.

[jin]

I don't think this makes the maindeck or even the sideboard. The RRcc keeps it from improving your combo matchup. Your best chance for a turn three kill is to get a turn two Warchief via Lackey or Prospector. With Piledriver, you can play them for R and dump as many as three of them (hasted) on the board by turn three. Wardriver still costs RR, whether you have a warchief or not. Plus, Piledriver adds +2 for each other attacking goblin, while Wardriver only adds +1. Wardriver may be good in Standard goblins, but it has no place in Legacy. At RR, I would rather play Warren Instigator.

Yeah, I just did the math. The RR really hurts its chancing in making the deck. I think Wizard has figured out how to make Goblins fair.. LOL. All of the possibly good goblins are now RRX.. That's annoying...

[GoboLord]

Seems like a worse Goblin Piledriver. I guess if one was looking for Drivers 5-6, this could be considered. Actually this might even fall behind Goblin Bushwhacker in terms of playability.

How can you possibly compare this guy to Piledriver? He isn't a bad Piledriver but (as Avatara said) a bad Chieftain. And I don't see any use in running more Chieftains. This card is not worth disussing about IMO.

Another question:

If you look at the 4 Goblin lists that made top8 at SCGs Open: All of them run about 5-6 removal while I always felt comfortable with not less than 8!
What do you guys think is the optimal number of remvoal we should run atm?

[jrw1985]

Goblin Wardriver RR
Creature - Goblin Warrior U
Battle Cry (Whenever this creature attacks, each other attacking creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn)
2/2

Thoughts?

Just not good enough. Maybe if he was hasty and let you attack for 4 T2 with a T1 Lackey, but he isn't. Even if he was R1 instead of RR he still wouldn't be as good as Piledriver or MWM. Battlecry just isn't a good enough ability to justify a slot in a Legacy deck. Compared to other 2-drops...

Instigator has the same CMC and 2 good abilities, one of which is certainly better than Battlecry, yet he doesn't see much play.

MWM has a more flexible CMC and a better ability, yet he's not even an automatic 4-of.

Piledriver has a more flexible CMC and 2 abilities that are better than Battlecry. Auto-4-of. Not going to cut him for a Goblin Warrior any time soon.

I'm always looking forward to seeing cool, new goblins, but they're going to be few and far between from here on out. Getting Chieftain and Instigator in the last year was pretty generous if you ask me. We're never getting another Lackey or Piledriver so you can throw out the pipedreams of a 2 CMC gobo with protection from Green and a built-in Goblin Bombardment.

Another reason legacy goblins won't get better cards is that it only makes sense for WotC to print good goblins when they're releasing a Tribal-themed set. If they're not planning a Standard format where Goblins could be a viable contender then they're not going to print goblin cards that are going to cut the mustard in Legacy.

Sad but true, but at least we don't play Faeries, right?

[jrw1985]

Another question:

If you look at the 4 Goblin lists that made top8 at SCGs Open: All of them run about 5-6 removal while I always felt comfortable with not less than 8!
What do you guys think is the optimal number of remvoal we should run atm?

Gempalm = 4 of (If you can't appreciate uncounterable burn that replaces itself, but can also play out a chump-blocker or attacker, well, you probably shouldn't be playing Magic).

Weirding - I used to run 3 when reanimator was the rage. Now I'm down to 2.

Stingscourger- Cut him when Survival was going crazy. I see no reason to reintroduce him to the deck since reanimator hasn't come back yet, nor has Show and Tell/Emrakul managed to make any significant impact.

Sharpshooter- Running 1 of him since the format seems more based around swarms right now.

That puts me in the 6-7 category. I feel like Goblins doesn't need to go too removal crazy since we've got the chump blockers to spare. Also, we don't mind wasting guys on the attack in order to get damage through (unlike Zoo which really needs to send its Cats through either an open or dominated board).

[TossUsToLions]

Gempalm = 4 of (If you can't appreciate uncounterable burn that replaces itself, but can also play out a chump-blocker or attacker, well, you probably shouldn't be playing Magic).

Weirding - I used to run 3 when reanimator was the rage. Now I'm down to 2.

Stingscourger- Cut him when Survival was going crazy. I see no reason to reintroduce him to the deck since reanimator hasn't come back yet, nor has Show and Tell/Emrakul managed to make any significant impact.

Sharpshooter- Running 1 of him since the format seems more based around swarms right now.

That puts me in the 6-7 category. I feel like Goblins doesn't need to go too removal crazy since we've got the chump blockers to spare. Also, we don't mind wasting guys on the attack in order to get damage through (unlike Zoo which really needs to send its Cats through either an open or dominated board).

This is the exact same removal package that i am running right now. I don't really consider Sharpshooter as removal, so I think that 6 is the optimal number. Stingscourger just doesnt do enough for the deck.

How much removal do you think we need in the board? Right now i have 6 sweepers (3 Perish, 3 Pyrokenisis). Is this too much? Should I put a singleton Stingscourger in the SB for the random Emrakul and Iona?

[Avatara]

Gempalm = 4 of (If you can't appreciate uncounterable burn that replaces itself, but can also play out a chump-blocker or attacker, well, you probably shouldn't be playing Magic).
Ok I guess I should stop playing Magic now... no seriously your removal package is totally depends on your meta game. Gempalm doesn't remove a turn 1-3 Tombstalker for example.


That puts me in the 6-7 category. I feel like Goblins doesn't need to go too removal crazy since we've got the chump blockers to spare. Also, we don't mind wasting guys on the attack in order to get damage through (unlike Zoo which really needs to send its Cats through either an open or dominated board).

1. Chump blockers don't replace removal.
2. Why would I waste my Piledriver or Lackey on a Goyf if I can prevent it while removing my opponents creature with a single spell?

[jin]

Ok I guess I should stop playing Magic now... no seriously your removal package is totally depends on your meta game. Gempalm doesn't remove a turn 1-3 Tombstalker for example.



Uhh, you can take 1 or 2 hits from a tombstalker. Decks that play tombstalker are generally not a problem. If a deck pitches his hand for turn 1-3 tomb stalker, he probably won't attack in the face of your 1x goblin lackey... so..

this really isn't an argument against gempalm incinerator.



@"new Piledriver"
Let's be honest, Chieftain is a watered down version of Piledriver, and so this new Wardriver or whatever is a watered down version of Chieftain. But in the end, they are all comparable to Piledriver because they add damage equal to the number of goblins you control. I realize it is an over simplification, but at the core, it is that, a weak piledriver.

@removal
Yeah, I agree with jrw.... 7ish removal seems good. I myself play a mono colour list, so I am forced to play with Stingscourgers...I run a 4/2 split between gempalm and stinger. In addition, I run his sharpshooter.

[Avatara]

Uhh, you can take 1 or 2 hits from a tombstalker. Decks that play tombstalker are generally not a problem. If a deck pitches his hand for turn 1-3 tomb stalker, he probably won't attack in the face of your 1x goblin lackey... so..

this really isn't an argument against gempalm incinerator.

I couldn't beat Eva Green with the list that won the previous Starcity Games (only removal 4 Gemplams). I never had any problems with my mono red (because of the Stingscourgers). This is a fact from my play testing sessions. Decks that tend to run Tomb Stalkers have a shit load of removal and hand destruction. They make me discard my Ringleader and Matron... Snuff out my Lackey and get a Goyf, Tombstalker or shade to beat me up in a couple of turns. What am I supposed to do? Waiting for 5 goblins for my gempalm isn't fast enough. Not to mention game 2-3 were they bring in Engineered plague. The pressure is on Goblins in this match-up... sure we beat them in the mid-late game, but if they have a good hand it wont even get to that. Sinkholes & Wastelands also hurts like a bitch when you are playing fetch (splash G or B).

To be honest... in how many matchups is the uncounterability really relevant? In a lot of match-ups Gempalm doesn't do that much because we either don't have enough creature (for example vs countertop & red-rock -> Firesprout main deck). If we had enough creatures on the board chances are big that we are already winning any ways. Gempalm can also backfire... if they kill a goblin in response to avoid lethal damage. You are basically left with a spell that says pay 2 -> draw a card. Of course there are matchups where it's good, but right now I'm playing more matches were I rather have other removal.

Singscourger removes a creature. Warren weirding makes your opponent sacrifice a creature and Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to the face or kills an early game creature. Gempalm draws you a card and might kill something if the conditions are right. Even in match-ups where gempalm is supposed to be awsome like goblins and merfolk I often rather have Pyrokenesis, Bolt or Sharpshooter.

I personally don't believe that there is an ideal removal package for Goblins. It depends on your meta game... if someone thinks otherwise I would love to hear their arguments and be enlightened.

[Lejay]

I personally don't believe that there is an ideal removal package for Goblins. It depends on your meta game... if someone thinks otherwise I would love to hear their arguments and be enlightened.
Your are right on this point but...
What I'd like to point out is that you don't always know the metagame or it is sometimes is too diverse. In this case considering you run 4 matrons you better diversify your removal. I play every good goblin removal in my main deck except tarfire.

[jin]

I couldn't beat Eva Green with the list that won the previous Starcity Games (only removal 4 Gemplams). I never had any problems with my mono red (because of the Stingscourgers). This is a fact from my play testing sessions. Decks that tend to run Tomb Stalkers have a shit load of removal and hand destruction. They make me discard my Ringleader and Matron... Snuff out my Lackey and get a Goyf, Tombstalker or shade to beat me up in a couple of turns. What am I supposed to do? Waiting for 5 goblins for my gempalm isn't fast enough. Not to mention game 2-3 were they bring in Engineered plague. The pressure is on Goblins in this match-up... sure we beat them in the mid-late game, but if they have a good hand it wont even get to that. Sinkholes & Wastelands also hurts like a bitch when you are playing fetch (splash G or B).

To be honest... in how many matchups is the uncounterability really relevant? In a lot of match-ups Gempalm doesn't do that much because we either don't have enough creature (for example vs countertop & red-rock -> Firesprout main deck). If we had enough creatures on the board chances are big that we are already winning any ways. Gempalm can also backfire... if they kill a goblin in response to avoid lethal damage. You are basically left with a spell that says pay 2 -> draw a card. Of course there are matchups where it's good, but right now I'm playing more matches were I rather have other removal.

Singscourger removes a creature. Warren weirding makes your opponent sacrifice a creature and Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to the face or kills an early game creature. Gempalm draws you a card and might kill something if the conditions are right. Even in match-ups where gempalm is supposed to be awsome like goblins and merfolk I often rather have Pyrokenesis, Bolt or Sharpshooter.

I personally don't believe that there is an ideal removal package for Goblins. It depends on your meta game... if someone thinks otherwise I would love to hear their arguments and be enlightened.

I admit Plague is annoying, but if a Plague is resolved, then your Sting Scourger doesn't help you any better than a Gempalm Incinerator would (or wouldn't). Therefore, your argument about plague in regards to Gempalm VS stinger is irrelevent (I realize you are comparing the decks and not the card, so I just want to make it clear that Plague has no direct correlation to Gempalm VS stinger).

The fact of the matter is Gempalm's card advantage can keep the field equal in the face of their discard. They pack removal and discard, but again, a handsize can only be so big. With all of the acceleration + removal + discard, they probably won't have enough to be a threat on the board. Likewise, if they have lots of acceleration and removal and threats, they won't have much discard. And likewise, if they have acceleration + discard + threat, then they won't have much removal. I think my point stands there, that their hand is not as broken as you claim them to be. If they power out a threat turn 3 with mild discard turn 1-2, then likewise, you should be able to drop 1-2 Goblins in those first few turns. To that end, you only really need to play 3 more Goblins to Gempalm a Tombstalker, assuming you even need to considering all of the damage the Eva Green player took from thougthseizes and fetchlands, he's probably on the Defense (not counting Mogg War Marshalls as I don't even play the guy anymore).

To continue these examples, if an Eva player were to have removal and drop Tombstalker turn 3ish, then you'd get to keep your ringleaders and matrons to refill your hand. Albiet a little slower, but no Eva player is going to use removal on a Matron, so by that alone, you'd have at least 2-3 Goblins by turn 4 or 5? I think you can tank a bit of Tombstalker. Stinger would be faster, but by turn 5, I'm sure he can just drop him out again. Bouncing just delays the inevitable.

You need to document your Eva Green match-ups because they shouldn't be that hard pre-board due to a lack of Engineered Plague. Gempalm's greatest strength isn't the 'uncounterability' but is due to the fact that it replaces itself. The fact that you don't lose card advantage but gain a positive position in the board is crucial. Its only and biggest drawback is that it costs R1 to cycle and it doesn't get cheaper from Warchiefs.

[ScatmanX]

I admit Plague is annoying, but if a Plague is resolved, then your Sting Scourger doesn't help you any better than a Gempalm Incinerator would
Not that I disagree with everything else, but this is wrong.
If they cast Stalker turn 3, I doubt they'll have enough mana / cards to Delve if you return it to their hand.

[jin]

Not that I disagree with everything else, but this is wrong.
If they cast Stalker turn 3, I doubt they'll have enough mana / cards to Delve if you return it to their hand.

And you think stinging a Tombstalker to their hand in the presence of Plague will win you the game? As opposed to cycling incinerator for nothing and drawing a card. To be honest, they both do nothing as a resolve Plague with a Tombstalker in hand means you are going to eventually lose. The question is how long it will take.

If they aren't going to cast it on turn 4 again, they'll cast it on turn 5. There is no need to rush with Plague on the table.

[Vandalize]

Hey guys! I've been following this "removal counting" discussion in those last few pages and modified the deck a few times to playtest.

This is the list I'm running at the moment:

Lands [21]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain

Core [26]

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Removal [7]

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
1 Tarfire

Flexible Slots [6]

3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard [15]

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer

Removed my Lightning Bolts from MD because they can't be played in less than 3-of IMO. Added the fourth Gempalm and a singleton Tarfire because they are fetchable. Tarfire sucks, I know, but killling that pesky BoP, Noble Hierarch and Fauna Shaman seems fine to me. No skirk prospector MD/SB because I already have KGrip and Tinkerer for Jitte. Stingscourger counting is 2 for a lot of reasons: It's a lackey enabler, it can bounce a lot of big troublemakers (Knight of Reliquary, Tombstalker, Emrakul, Tarmogoyf, etc..), and since I'm not R/B with Wort, playing less than 2 seems wrong to me. My land counting seems a little low, but I haven't been mana short lately, I don't know if I should add another Mountain.

Another thing I've learned in my previous tourney is that you must ALWAYS diversify your graveyard hate (unless you're playing LotV, of course). This 2/1 Crypt Relic split is just good, since you can rely on both without being hurt (some R/B lists don't like playing Relic).

That singleton Boartusk Liege is there to add extra pressure against double E.Plague... Waiting for a KGrip topdeck seems to last forever. And you don't have "forever" against Tombstalkers.

[Amon Amarth]

@ Vandalize: You really want a 22nd land. I would never go below 22 lands and in my build I run 24. First glance I'd say cut a Tarfire for another mountain.

[GoboLord]

@ Vandalize: You really want a 22nd land. I would never go below 22 lands and in my build I run 24. First glance I'd say cut a Tarfire for another mountain.

I'd cut either Tarfire or Chieftain...and: If you are Rg I'd rather play Tin-Street Hooligan than Tinkerer.

@ removal-discussion: once again I agree with Scatman. Plague is the best way to defuse Gempalm Incinerator, while Stinger is completely uneffected by it. Nevertheless is the existance of E.Plague not an agrument for or against the one or the other.
I know the value of Gempalm but the flexibility that Stinger gives us (even, or especially) as a 1-of is much more valuable:
* Stinger can be vialed in (doesnt cost mana)
* Stinger hits every creature wihout Shroud and protection (which can also be important to push Lackey through)
* Stinger costs 1 mana with Warchief in play (and can attack)
* Stinger can trade 2 for 1
* Stinger's Echo is nice (but not more than that) against Dredge

I don't see any reason to completely cut Stinger out of the deck for the 4th Gempalm Incinerator.

[ScatmanX]

And you think stinging a Tombstalker to their hand in the presence of Plague will win you the game? As opposed to cycling incinerator for nothing and drawing a card. To be honest, they both do nothing as a resolve Plague with a Tombstalker in hand means you are going to eventually lose. The question is how long it will take.

If they aren't going to cast it on turn 4 again, they'll cast it on turn 5. There is no need to rush with Plague on the table.
If you aways lose the game where they land 1 Plague, and 1 threat, you're doing something wrong.
Our haste enablers, and our Piledrivers (and to a lesser extent, Ringleaders) survive 1 Plague, and if you give your deck tools to fight a threat even over a Plague, the match isn't lost.

Of course Stingin Stalker may not win the game right away, but if he hits along with a Warchief, and a Piledriver, that's 6 less dmg you have to do to your opponent, instead of only cycling a card...

[jin]

I don't see any reason to completely cut Stinger out of the deck for the 4th Gempalm Incinerator.

We are merely debating the merits of Gempalm Incinerator versus Sting Scourger. I don't think any of us are arguing why one should be completely cut over the other. I think the discussion arose when someone was playing a Sting Scourger #3 over a Gempalm Incinerator #4 so I think that's where the major discussion took off.

A point ScatmanX and the others raised was that Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf are difficult to deal with with Gempalm Incinerator which I do not agree with. I think Emrakul, Iona, Phyrexian Dreadnought, etc. would be an argument for Sting Scourger, but not Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker.

The talking about Tombstalker then raised the question about Engineered Plague, which is entirely a whole different discussion. I don't know why it was brought up. I think it was because of Eva Green.


If you aways lose the game where they land 1 Plague, and 1 threat, you're doing something wrong.
Our haste enablers, and our Piledrivers (and to a lesser extent, Ringleaders) survive 1 Plague, and if you give your deck tools to fight a threat even over a Plague, the match isn't lost.

Of course Stingin Stalker may not win the game right away, but if he hits along with a Warchief, and a Piledriver, that's 6 less dmg you have to do to your opponent, instead of only cycling a card...

Are you telling me you are going to sit there and wait for your stinger/ringleader/piledriver/chief combo to win? You don't make it sound very easy considering your only damage dealer is Piledriver. I don't scoop in the face of Plague but let's face it, how many of us have actually gotten the piledriver/stinger/warchief to victory post-plague with a 5/5 coming at us. Not very many of us and not very often. So please don't patronize me by saying I'm doing something wrong if I say it is pretty much a lost game after a plague.

My argument stands that if your piledriver can win through plague, with piledriver and friends, then gempalm can kill a Tombstalker.

You have outs like chieftain and boartusk liege, but how good is that really? I'm not sure. I play both in my 75 right now, but only to cheat a win out of those who think they can run 3x Engineered Plagues against Goblins. Outside of that, I have nothing against plague.

[BWM]

You have outs like chieftain and boartusk liege, but how good is that really? I'm not sure. I play both in my 75 right now, but only to cheat a win out of those who think they can run 3x Engineered Plagues against Goblins. Outside of that, I have nothing against plague.

I have 6 in my 75 (monored) and the only time I have lost from a plague was when the guy actually sided in black lands and plagues, so I didn't see it coming at all...

[jin]

I have 6 in my 75 (monored) and the only time I have lost from a plague was when the guy actually sided in black lands and plagues, so I didn't see it coming at all...

They don't play Swords to Plowshares and Vindicates?

[GoboLord]

Are you telling me you are going to sit there and wait for your stinger/ringleader/piledriver/chief combo to win? You don't make it sound very easy considering your only damage dealer is Piledriver. I don't scoop in the face of Plague but let's face it, how many of us have actually gotten the piledriver/stinger/warchief to victory post-plague with a 5/5 coming at us. Not very many of us and not very often. So please don't patronize me by saying I'm doing something wrong if I say it is pretty much a lost game after a plague.


That's not what he said. I'd suggest to re-read his post.
And: I wouldn't go so far to assume that you are doing something wrong, BUT you should consider some more playtesting against decks with Plague if you really think that a Plague means that the game is pretty much lost. You don't have to wait for nothing in the face of plague. Even in the worst-case-scenario your opponent can't have creatures AND removal AND much lives left when dropping a plague; plus you should have some creatures left (in hand and play). You can also keep your Gempalm + 2 mana and kill something in response on Plague (if necessary).



---------------------------------------
Another topic: Recently we are talking about abusing Cabal Therapy. In order to do that, integrating MWM as a 4-of is a logical conclusion. What do you guys think of Goblin Lookout to make more use of MWM. I think he can be very valuable in defense (by upgrading our chump-blockers) and in the offense (for the alphastrike).

[TossUsToLions]

Another topic: Recently we are talking about abusing Cabal Therapy. In order to do that, integrating MWM as a 4-of is a logical conclusion. What do you guys think of Goblin Lookout to make more use of MWM. I think he can be very valuable in defense (by upgrading our chump-blockers) and in the offense (for the alphastrike).

I think Goblin Lookout is a cool idea and can lead to more consistent turn 4 kills. But, in order to maximize his effeciency, we would need to play full a playset of MWM and then add in a few Lookouts. My only concern here is finding out what to take out to make room here. But i do love the idea of putting more two-drops in the deck. Like I always say, the only negative about gobbos is its outrageous manacurve

[Nidd]

Even though Goblin Lookout is neat, Goblin Chieftain is better, I guess. he doesn't eat up a guy and provides Haste. And he's still bonkers with token.

[jin]

That's not what he said. I'd suggest to re-read his post.
And: I wouldn't go so far to assume that you are doing something wrong, BUT you should consider some more playtesting against decks with Plague if you really think that a Plague means that the game is pretty much lost. You don't have to wait for nothing in the face of plague. Even in the worst-case-scenario your opponent can't have creatures AND removal AND much lives left when dropping a plague; plus you should have some creatures left (in hand and play). You can also keep your Gempalm + 2 mana and kill something in response on Plague (if necessary).


if you aways lose the game where they land 1 Plague, and 1 threat, you're doing something wrong.
Our haste enablers, and our Piledrivers (and to a lesser extent, Ringleaders) survive 1 Plague, and if you give your deck tools to fight a threat even over a Plague, the match isn't lost.

I don't understand what you don't understand. 1 plague..haster/piledriver/ringleader... isn't lost. I think I got the message quite clearly. Maybe you should re-read his post. I read it like 5 times and got the same message. He is saying haster/piledriver/ringleader will pull a win through.

Please, you are making the same points as I am several post back. You are arguing that Gempalm is useful against Plague Decks which I already said and also you are arguing that Plague decks won't have much of either creatures AND removal AND life, which is what I said. So can you please stop reiterating what I already said like you were lecturing me about it?




I think Goblin Lookout is a cool idea and can lead to more consistent turn 4 kills. But, in order to maximize his effeciency, we would need to play full a playset of MWM and then add in a few Lookouts. My only concern here is finding out what to take out to make room here. But i do love the idea of putting more two-drops in the deck. Like I always say, the only negative about gobbos is its outrageous manacurve

Lookout is neat but your Rishadan Port strategy is weakened when there are more 2-drops in the deck...(main deck anyway..)


Even though Goblin Lookout is neat, Goblin Chieftain is better, I guess. he doesn't eat up a guy and provides Haste. And he's still bonkers with token.

what about sideboard for the combo match up? I'm looking for more piledrivers...

[Vandalize]

Goblin Lookout can be played as a 1-of, along with 4 MWM. It's just like an additional pressure imo.

[jrw1985]

This month’s tournament I sleeved up R/B Goblins and took the field of about 40 players head on.
My deck runs 3 each of Chieftain, Warchief, and MWM, plus 4 Gempalms and 2 Weirdings. SB was 4 Tormod’s Crypt, 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Thorn of Amethyst, 4 Pyrokinesis and 2 Shattering Spree.
R1 TES
I think I was on the play and lost G1. G2 I sided in 4 Chalice of the Void and 1 Thorn of Amethyst (and 2 Pyrokinesis since he was running Red and could very well be playing Empty the Warrens). I mulled, looking for hate. I saw none and mulled down to 5. Still none, but my hand had Wasteland and Piledriver, so I kept. I had no one-drop, so it was land-go. He fetched an Underground and Duressed me, getting nothing. I played Waste, then pondered whether to play Piledriver or Waste his Sea. I went the mana denial route. He had no T2 play. I then topdecked a Thorn of Amethyst and played it off of my third land. He had no response, and Piledriver+Warchief got there. G3 was abysmal. Once again I mulled to 5, looking for hate. None to be found. Instead of mulling to 4 I hoped to topdeck something playable. This was a mistake, as my 5 had no 1-drop or Wasteland, so he Pondered T1 and went off T2. Shoulda mulled to hate. I took away from this match that against combo, mulling to hate is necessary, especially when you’re on the draw G3. Being the drawing player means you don’t have to decide to mulligan until you know whether or not your opponent is mulling. If they’re keeping their opening 7 you’d better mull into something good, whether or not you have hate.
R2 Staxx
Dumb deck, and my opponent was a dick. No worries though. Beat him 2-0. I don’t understand why Staxx is an archetype. If you find yourself in this match, MWM really shines. Sack for Smokestack? It just so happens I have a MWM here that I don’t feel like paying the echo for. I wound up adding permanents to the field while he had to sack a land, then his smokestack. He was so upset that he almost knocked the table over, banging into it hard as he stood to leave, muttering about how he “hasn’t lost to Goblins in years”.
R3 Zoo
I made a huge mistake G1. I had finally created some board position with a Piledriver, matron, and token in play. I was staring down Nacatl, Lavamancer, and Steppe Lynx. I knew if I attacked into that board my Piledriver would be torched and a Nacatle would eat another, but I attacked anyway. I should have tried to develop more. I might have been able to turn the game around. I sided out Piledrivers and Aether Vials for Chalice of the Voids and Pyrokinesis. The look on my opponent’s face when I cast Chalice at 1 turn 2 was priceless. Another Chalice showed up and I played it for 2 after clearing his board with a Pyrokinesis. On to Game 3. I sided out the Chalices because for Vials because Chalice doesn’t seem nearly as good on the draw. This game was super drawn out. My Ringleaders could have been better to me, but they weren’t, and I couldn’t draw it out all the way. Also, he landed a T2 Sylvan Library, which is just plain old awesome.

So, I played badly G1 against Zoo and got unlucky G3 when my multiple Ringleaders couldn’t draw me out. I was lucky to win G2 against TES, but was unlucky G3 in being completely unable to find a Chalice. The result was 1-2, drop. I really punted G1 against Zoo, and I feel like I should have won G3 but he had that T2 Library which makes that deck so much stronger than it is without. My draws were pretty weak throughout the day too. I never hit a 1-drop or hate against TES. Also, I’m not sure if I should have sided out the Chalices G3 against Zoo… Dunno. They seem bad on the draw, but I guess Pyrokinesis makes it pretty easy to clear their board so maybe I should have kept the Chalices around.

Also, I had a Magic first while playing a game before the tournament! I was playing RB Goblins against my friend’s Show and Tell. I went first and played a mountain and a vial. My friend just played a land. My second turn I upped Vial to 1, played a second land, and cast a Piledriver. My friend played Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Emrakul, and I put a Siege-Gang Commander on the table. My third turn I upped Vial to 2 and attacked with my 5 goblins. Emrakul blocked the Piledriver (9/2) so in response to blockers I Vialed in a MWM then Gempalmed Emrakul for 7 for a total of 16 damage! Dead Emrakul, won game!

[jin]

This month’s tournament I sleeved up R/B Goblins and took the field of about 40 players head on.
My deck runs 3 each of Chieftain, Warchief, and MWM, plus 4 Gempalms and 2 Weirdings. SB was 4 Tormod’s Crypt, 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Thorn of Amethyst, 4 Pyrokinesis and 2 Shattering Spree.
R1 TES
I think I was on the play and lost G1. G2 I sided in 4 Chalice of the Void and 1 Thorn of Amethyst (and 2 Pyrokinesis since he was running Red and could very well be playing Empty the Warrens). I mulled, looking for hate. I saw none and mulled down to 5. Still none, but my hand had Wasteland and Piledriver, so I kept. I had no one-drop, so it was land-go. He fetched an Underground and Duressed me, getting nothing. I played Waste, then pondered whether to play Piledriver or Waste his Sea. I went the mana denial route. He had no T2 play. I then topdecked a Thorn of Amethyst and played it off of my third land. He had no response, and Piledriver+Warchief got there. G3 was abysmal. Once again I mulled to 5, looking for hate. None to be found. Instead of mulling to 4 I hoped to topdeck something playable. This was a mistake, as my 5 had no 1-drop or Wasteland, so he Pondered T1 and went off T2. Shoulda mulled to hate. I took away from this match that against combo, mulling to hate is necessary, especially when you’re on the draw G3. Being the drawing player means you don’t have to decide to mulligan until you know whether or not your opponent is mulling. If they’re keeping their opening 7 you’d better mull into something good, whether or not you have hate.
R2 Staxx
Dumb deck, and my opponent was a dick. No worries though. Beat him 2-0. I don’t understand why Staxx is an archetype. If you find yourself in this match, MWM really shines. Sack for Smokestack? It just so happens I have a MWM here that I don’t feel like paying the echo for. I wound up adding permanents to the field while he had to sack a land, then his smokestack. He was so upset that he almost knocked the table over, banging into it hard as he stood to leave, muttering about how he “hasn’t lost to Goblins in years”.
R3 Zoo
I made a huge mistake G1. I had finally created some board position with a Piledriver, matron, and token in play. I was staring down Nacatl, Lavamancer, and Steppe Lynx. I knew if I attacked into that board my Piledriver would be torched and a Nacatle would eat another, but I attacked anyway. I should have tried to develop more. I might have been able to turn the game around. I sided out Piledrivers and Aether Vials for Chalice of the Voids and Pyrokinesis. The look on my opponent’s face when I cast Chalice at 1 turn 2 was priceless. Another Chalice showed up and I played it for 2 after clearing his board with a Pyrokinesis. On to Game 3. I sided out the Chalices because for Vials because Chalice doesn’t seem nearly as good on the draw. This game was super drawn out. Mghy Ringleaders could have been better to me, but they weren’t, and I couldn’t draw it out all the way. Also, he landed a T2 Sylvan Library, which is just plain old awesome.

So, I played badly G1 against Zoo and got unlucky G3 when my multiple Ringleaders couldn’t draw me out. I was lucky to win G2 against TES, but was unlucky G3 in being completely unable to find a Chalice. The result was 1-2, drop. I really punted G1 against Zoo, and I feel like I should have won G3 but he had that T2 Library which makes that deck so much stronger than it is without. My draws were pretty weak throughout the day too. I never hit a 1-drop or hate against TES. Also, I’m not sure if I should have sided out the Chalices G3 against Zoo… Dunno. They seem bad on the draw, but I guess Pyrokinesis makes it pretty easy to clear their board so maybe I should have kept the Chalices around.

Also, I had a Magic first while playing a game before the tournament! I was playing RB Goblins against my friend’s Show and Tell. I went first and played a mountain and a vial. My friend just played a land. My second turn I upped Vial to 1, played a second land, and cast a Piledriver. My friend played Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Emrakul, and I put a Siege-Gang Commander on the table. My third turn I upped Vial to 2 and attacked with my 5 goblins. Emrakul blocked the Piledriver (9/2) so in response to blockers I Vialed in a MWM then Gempalmed Emrakul for 7 for a total of 16 damage! Dead Emrakul, won game!

Sorry to here about your tough tournament. It sounded fun. To clear things up though, the TES match up is really tough whether you have Chalice or not, so don't beat yourself up on it. Whether you mulled correctly is a tough call, but whether he had a turn 1 or turn 2 kill or answers to your Chalice/Thorn is also tough to read. There really isn't much Goblins can do unless you are packing a lot of hate. A suggestion I might add to your combo hate board (although I like Thorn as the 5th Chalice) is that playing varying types of combo hate is more important than playing a redudancy of combo hate. You are probably better off with 3x Chalice and 3x Mindbreak Trap as having to find a solution to your artifact and needing to Duress you is much harder than just needing to get rid of your Chalice. I suggest 3 of each because multiple Chalices are not strong against TES and Mindbreak Trap is better on the draw so I think a 3/3 split is good. This is only if you are playing in a heavy combo environment though.

[Nidd]

Sorry to here about your tough tournament. It sounded fun. To clear things up though, the TES match up is really tough whether you have Chalice or not, so don't beat yourself up on it. Whether you mulled correctly is a tough call, but whether he had a turn 1 or turn 2 kill or answers to your Chalice/Thorn is also tough to read. There really isn't much Goblins can do unless you are packing a lot of hate. A suggestion I might add to your combo hate board (although I like Thorn as the 5th Chalice) is that playing varying types of combo hate is more important than playing a redudancy of combo hate. You are probably better off with 3x Chalice and 3x Mindbreak Trap as having to find a solution to your artifact and needing to Duress you is much harder than just needing to get rid of your Chalice. I suggest 3 of each because multiple Chalices are not strong against TES and Mindbreak Trap is better on the draw so I think a 3/3 split is good. This is only if you are playing in a heavy combo environment though.
When the meta makes you devote 6 slots to combo in your SB, you are playing the wrong deck.

[jin]

When the meta makes you devote 6 slots to combo in your SB, you are playing the wrong deck.

Some people are stubborn, what can I say. I don't, I'm just saying you could if you were in that situation.

[Nelis]

When the meta makes you devote 6 slots to combo in your SB, you are playing the wrong deck.

That's a bit quick on the draw, even though you're right. Maybe he only has one deck, or isn't good at playing control/combo?

[Avatara]

We have a turn 3/4 kill hand & combo hate -> Go for it... It doesn't really get any better than this
We have a turn 3 kill hand -> Don't mull, go for it and prey that the combo player doesn't have his very best hand
We have mediocre hand with two combo hate pieces -> Go for it... and hope that you have enough time to reach lethal damage any time soon
We have a mediocre hand -> mulligan
We have a mediocre hand & combo hate -> Go for it or mulligan (success almost completely depends on their hand)

Of course it's a bit more complicated, but these are my rough guidelines.

If you are really keen on increasing your chances vs combo without polluting your sideboard to much you could add Inquisition of Kozilek to your main board. After sideboarding you can have have eight anti combo cards. I ran that for a week or so instead of lightning bolts and it was ok. Yes it's a horrible mid-late game top deck but it takes care of so much more just little creatures. A lot of hands suddenly look a lot worse if you can remove a key. I also won a few matches simply because I could adjust my game plan early on (deciding to go all in aggro or lean back a bit and take the aggro control route). I'm not saying that this was ideal but It might be useful for some people.

[Lejay]

If you are really keen on increasing your chances vs combo with Goblins you could add Inquisition of Kozilek to your main board. After side boarding I had eight anti combo cards. I ran that for a week or so instead of lightning bolts and it was ok.
After all the discussion on page 301 this makes me sad. :(

[Avatara]

After all the discussion on page 301 this makes me sad. :(

Cabal Therapy is a very different card than Inquisition of Kozilek. I'm not saying that people should run either one of them... I'm currently in favour of running 0 of both. But I think that we all agree that it's not really an option to spend more than 4 or 5 sideboard slots on combo without weakening our other match-ups. Inquisition always hits something if you use it on the first couple of turns, Cabal Therapy doesn't... that's a huge difference. Sure the Stingscourger combo is great but it doesn't work in the combo match-up.

On the Goblin Lookout suggestion. I think it's definitely worth trying as a one off. In some situations (with blockers) the +2 to every goblin can be a lot more significant than tutoring for a Piledriver when going for an alpha strike.

[Nelis]

But then we get into the discussion again that Cabal Therapy, or Inquisition for that matter, can be more general applied than Chalice.

If I would run Cabal Therapy then I would also run another form of discard like Duress or Inquisition next to it instead of Chalice.

[Lejay]

Cabal Therapy is a very different card than Inquisition of Kozilek.
Indeed. Cabal therapy can hit multiple cards, moat, jace TMS, wrath/damnation, ad nauseam, fow etc...


Inquisition always hits something if you use it on the first couple of turns, Cabal Therapy doesn't... that's a huge difference.
You rarely want to play discard on turn 1. Goblins Turn 1 drops are really powerful, but only on turn 1. Cabal therapy is more of a turn 2/turn 3 card against most decks. If I had to play discard main deck other than cabal therapy I think I would even play mesmeric fiend before inquisition because IoK can't take care of a lot of problematic cards for the deck.
So when you cast it on turn 2-3 you can narrow down the number of targets and you can sacrifice a goblin, the deck is full of useless creatures that already have done most of their job when coming into play.
Also when you hit the first time (whether you were lucky, had a good read, had a stingscourger, took advantage of cards like Silvergill Adept/stoneforge mystic etc... ) you play 2 disrupts in one and each can discard multiples.


But I think that we all agree that it's not really an option to spend more than 4 or 5 sideboard slots on combo without weakening our other match-ups.
That's only when you run sideboard slots dedicated to combo though. There are a lot flexible cards that can improve your combo match-up. The best example is probably discard which advantagely replace all your useless removal against combo and control.

Sure the Stingscourger combo is great but it doesn't work in the combo match-up.
Well please explain to me how warren weirding + lightning bolt will help you more than stingscourger + cabal therapy against combo.^^




Really guys it's not that I want to argue that my list is the perfect goblins list. In the last years I rarely posted because I usually don't care about proving my choices are the best.
But I spent a great amount of time playing this format and goblins is one of the decks I spent the most time on.
I have been playing mogg war marshalls months before everyone when zoo was on the rise.
I then replaced mogg fanatics with lightning bolts also months before everyone when M10 rules were released.
I have now been playing main deck cabal therapy for 6 months. Stingscourgers are as great as a tempo tool as MWM and cabal therapy is even more flexible than lightning bolt. They are not strictly superior, but all in all they just have more to offer.
I usually don't mind but I can't understand why you are giving priority to testing jank like goblin lookout, when a whole new vision on the deck is posted. Is this because it would make too much change in your pet list ? Easier to test a singleton ? I assure you you will learn a lot more in testing my list than in testing a singleton common that never made the cut before.

[GoboLord]

Well please explain to me how warren weirding + lightning bolt will help you more than stingscourger + cabal therapy against combo.^^
That's not even what he meant. He's just saying that CT's interaction with Stingscourger is irrelevant in the combo MU because you usually side him out.



Really guys it's not that I want to argue that my list is the perfect goblins list. In the last years I rarely posted because I usually don't care about proving my choices are the best.
But I spent a great amount of time playing this format and goblins is one of the decks I spent the most time on.
I have been playing mogg war marshalls months before everyone when zoo was on the rise.
I then replaced mogg fanatics with lightning bolts also months before everyone when M10 rules were released.
Thanks for the intel, but this doesn't help us with the topic(s) we are discussing.



I have now been playing main deck cabal therapy for 6 months. Stingscourgers are as great as a tempo tool as MWM and cabal therapy is even more flexible than lightning bolt. They are not strictly superior, but all in all they just have more to offer.
I usually don't mind but I can't understand why you are giving priority to testing jank like goblin lookout, when a whole new vision on the deck is posted. Is this because it would make too much change in your pet list ? Easier to test a singleton ? I assure you you will learn a lot more in testing my list than in testing a singleton common that never made the cut before.
The point is that you and those guys that top8'ed at SCG Open have already proven that Cabal Therapy is a very good card. Therefore you guys saved our time testing the card - e.g.: at the end of last year with the news of Survival's banning we already talked about how to change the deck. That's when I wanted to try out Cabal Therapy. Then you posted your list with CT and shortly thereafter 2 decks made it to top 8 with Cabal therapy. Because of this I didn't have to test CT anymore because now I know that the card is worth it. That's why I integrated it to my SB (as a result of that I'm "forced" to drop my beloved Leyline of the Void - but that's a different topic).
Lookout is different: It extends the "abuse-MWM"-thought that was introduced and it was rarely seen before. This idea is different from CT because it needs to be tested while CT is already proven to be good. Without MWM though I'd run neither the one nor the other.
Testing your list (or copying any other list 1:1) is not a good idea at all because everyone has his/her own playing style and favored card-choices (e.g. Tacosnape likes his Warren Instigators, I love Leyline of the Void). If you want people to build decks similar to yours you should spent some more time on explaining your other revolutionary card-choices (no offense intended: I mean it and I really like to read your agruments for cards like Sparksmith).

[SpikeyMikey]

Indeed. Cabal therapy can hit multiple cards, moat, jace TMS, wrath/damnation, ad nauseam, fow etc...


You rarely want to play discard on turn 1. Goblins Turn 1 drops are really powerful, but only on turn 1. Cabal therapy is more of a turn 2/turn 3 card against most decks. If I had to play discard main deck other than cabal therapy I think I would even play mesmeric fiend before inquisition because IoK can't take care of a lot of problematic cards for the deck.
So when you cast it on turn 2-3 you can narrow down the number of targets and you can sacrifice a goblin, the deck is full of useless creatures that already have done most of their job when coming into play.
Also when you hit the first time (whether you were lucky, had a good read, had a stingscourger, took advantage of cards like Silvergill Adept/stoneforge mystic etc... ) you play 2 disrupts in one and each can discard multiples.


That's only when you run sideboard slots dedicated to combo though. There are a lot flexible cards that can improve your combo match-up. The best example is probably discard which advantagely replace all your useless removal against combo and control.

Well please explain to me how warren weirding + lightning bolt will help you more than stingscourger + cabal therapy against combo.^^




Really guys it's not that I want to argue that my list is the perfect goblins list. In the last years I rarely posted because I usually don't care about proving my choices are the best.
But I spent a great amount of time playing this format and goblins is one of the decks I spent the most time on.
I have been playing mogg war marshalls months before everyone when zoo was on the rise.
I then replaced mogg fanatics with lightning bolts also months before everyone when M10 rules were released.
I have now been playing main deck cabal therapy for 6 months. Stingscourgers are as great as a tempo tool as MWM and cabal therapy is even more flexible than lightning bolt. They are not strictly superior, but all in all they just have more to offer.
I usually don't mind but I can't understand why you are giving priority to testing jank like goblin lookout, when a whole new vision on the deck is posted. Is this because it would make too much change in your pet list ? Easier to test a singleton ? I assure you you will learn a lot more in testing my list than in testing a singleton common that never made the cut before.

I got balled up by Lejay's Goblins last night. Stingscourger and Therapy wrecked me G1. He bounced a Noble Hierarch, Therapied it and then flashed to take both my Plows. It took all my removal and kept me off RWM mana. Therapy single-handedly won that game. I took G2 on the back of a massive KotR and Dueling Grounds (although Therapy did hit my Umezawa's Jitte), so effectively, that G1 Therapy bought him the match.

Obviously 1 match doesn't mean anything, but Goblins has so many ways to flash Therapy for free between MWM and Stingscourger that there's no reason not to run Therapy first.

[jin]

That's a bit quick on the draw, even though you're right. Maybe he only has one deck, or isn't good at playing control/combo?

that sounds way better than my argument.


We have a turn 3 kill hand -> Don't mull, go for it and prey that the combo player doesn't have his very best hand


Is this a Goblin Lackey, Mountain, Mountain, Goblin War Chief, triple Piledriver hand?


But then we get into the discussion again that Cabal Therapy, or Inquisition for that matter, can be more general applied than Chalice.

If I would run Cabal Therapy then I would also run another form of discard like Duress or Inquisition next to it instead of Chalice.

Chalice for one hits about 20% of all cards used in the Legacy metagame. I'm just saying....


Really guys it's not that I want to argue that my list is the perfect goblins list. In the last years I rarely posted because I usually don't care about proving my choices are the best.
But I spent a great amount of time playing this format and goblins is one of the decks I spent the most time on.
I have been playing mogg war marshalls months before everyone when zoo was on the rise.
I then replaced mogg fanatics with lightning bolts also months before everyone when M10 rules were released.
I have now been playing main deck cabal therapy for 6 months. Stingscourgers are as great as a tempo tool as MWM and cabal therapy is even more flexible than lightning bolt. They are not strictly superior, but all in all they just have more to offer.
I usually don't mind but I can't understand why you are giving priority to testing jank like goblin lookout, when a whole new vision on the deck is posted. Is this because it would make too much change in your pet list ? Easier to test a singleton ? I assure you you will learn a lot more in testing my list than in testing a singleton common that never made the cut before.

Its not that no one agrees with you. It's just that I don't agree with you.. no I'm just kidding. What I wanted to say was its not that I am dismissing your list as not viable. I was simply stirring up discussion by giving you a hard time. There are good points to your argument, I just wanted to put out the bad points to the argument as well and let people decide whether they want to use it or not.

Goblin Lookout isn't as good as Goblin Matron, but he is just starting a topic for us to discuss. We aren't saying it is more viable than Cabal Therapy. No one is agreeing that Inquisition is better than Cabal Therapy. We are simply discussing options, merits and disadvantages.

I hope my views on Cabal Therapy do not discourage you from posting.

[Nelis]

Chalice for one hits about 20% of all cards used in the Legacy metagame. I'm just saying....

CT hits much more. Just sayin'. :-) But I understand your point, and I also understand its not quite the same thing.

[jin]

CT hits at least 3 times more. Just sayin'. :-) But I understand your point, and I also understand its not quite the same thing.

yeah if you are psychic... yeah they are totally different things.. I've since cut my combo hate from my sideboard. I feel that a faster clock + our mana denial should be enough to stop storm combo decks. I just want to find more piledrivers... to help me get that so called turn 3 kill hand Avatara was talking about.

[GoboLord]

Is this a Goblin Lackey, Mountain, Mountain, Goblin War Chief, triple Piledriver hand?

No, it's a Lackey, Piledriver, SGC, 2 Mountain hand.


yeah if you are psychic... yeah they are totally different things.. I've since cut my combo hate from my sideboard. I feel that a faster clock + our mana denial should be enough to stop storm combo decks. I just want to find more piledrivers... to help me get that so called turn 3 kill hand Avatara was talking about.

This isn't even an argument against combo-hate.
First: without combo hate in your siedeboard you have "dead" cards in MD against combo (aka removal)
Second: Cabal Therapy isn't even dedicated combo-hate. You can use it in a variety of MU where it hits obvious winconditions even without flashback (and thus without being psychic)

In your first post on this page you wrote that TES is a tough MU. Thats only true when your sideboard doesn't contain combohate. Many comboplayers are a paranoid bunch of doomsayers. They won't take us lightly at any time of the match, just because they know that we have access to so many different combo-hate cards. As anecdotal evidence: on the Dutch Legacy champs I kept a rather fast hand (without combo hate) by confidently saying "Keep". My opp told me afterwards that he mulled to 5 to find duress or orim's chant, just because he feared combo hate. Mind game them...they always expect us to have either combo hate on our opening hand or to take mulligan to find some. That makes them keep slow hand with protection-spells.

[jrw1985]

Sorry to here about your tough tournament. It sounded fun. To clear things up though, the TES match up is really tough whether you have Chalice or not, so don't beat yourself up on it. Whether you mulled correctly is a tough call, but whether he had a turn 1 or turn 2 kill or answers to your Chalice/Thorn is also tough to read. There really isn't much Goblins can do unless you are packing a lot of hate. A suggestion I might add to your combo hate board (although I like Thorn as the 5th Chalice) is that playing varying types of combo hate is more important than playing a redudancy of combo hate. You are probably better off with 3x Chalice and 3x Mindbreak Trap as having to find a solution to your artifact and needing to Duress you is much harder than just needing to get rid of your Chalice. I suggest 3 of each because multiple Chalices are not strong against TES and Mindbreak Trap is better on the draw so I think a 3/3 split is good. This is only if you are playing in a heavy combo environment though.

There isn't a ton of combo in my meta. I really only noticed 2 or 3 Storm Combo decks in the 40 person tourney. My singleton Thorn of Amethyst was just to fill a blank spot in my side. I'm not a huge fan of it because my favorite piece of combo hate has to be Chalice of the Void. I think running 5 pieces of combo hate is reasonable, but I'm not diversifying out my 4 Chalices because I love them too much.

Why I Love Chalice-
- It turns off 10-12 free spells that give free mana (Petal, Mox, LED) in their deck (TES, ANT, Belcher) when you play it for 0. These spells not only accelerate their mana, but also serve as important enablers for their Tutors. With Chalice at 0 they can't play an LED to sack in response to an Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish, which in turn makes those tutor cards much less efficient for their gameplan.
- Chalice is the fastest and most resilient threat against storm combo. On the draw, any hate card can be Duressed away, whether it's Chalice or Mindbreak or Thorn. On the play Chalice can be played alongside a 1-drop T1. A T1 Chalice cannot be negated by T2 discard effects or Orim's Chant/Silence/Xantid Swarm effects. Since Storm Combo decks usually run hand disruption rather than removal, having a permanent in play against them is prefered.


We have a turn 3/4 kill hand & combo hate -> Go for it... It doesn't really get any better than this
We have a turn 3 kill hand -> Don't mull, go for it and prey that the combo player doesn't have his very best hand
We have mediocre hand with two combo hate pieces -> Go for it... and hope that you have enough time to reach lethal damage any time soon
We have a mediocre hand -> mulligan
We have a mediocre hand & combo hate -> Go for it or mulligan (success almost completely depends on their hand)

Of course it's a bit more complicated, but these are my rough guidelines.

If you are really keen on increasing your chances vs combo without polluting your sideboard to much you could add Inquisition of Kozilek to your main board. After sideboarding you can have have eight anti combo cards. I ran that for a week or so instead of lightning bolts and it was ok. Yes it's a horrible mid-late game top deck but it takes care of so much more just little creatures. A lot of hands suddenly look a lot worse if you can remove a key. I also won a few matches simply because I could adjust my game plan early on (deciding to go all in aggro or lean back a bit and take the aggro control route). I'm not saying that this was ideal but It might be useful for some people.

I like your summation of mulling situations vs Combo, and I agree with all but the last one. Mediocre hand+combo hate=go for it. Mulling at that point will likely draw you a hand just as mediocre and without combo hate.

I also don't like the idea of main-deck discard. It works for Bg/w aggro-control strategies because they have better creatures than we do and can afford to run only 12-16 MD creatures. We can't. We need every creature slot we can to keep the horde moving.

[jin]

No, it's a Lackey, Piledriver, SGC, 2 Mountain hand.

that's not a 3rd turn hand. Ýou don't have haste. No wonder you are GoboLord, your Goblins have auto-haste...



This isn't even an argument against combo-hate.
First: without combo hate in your siedeboard you have "dead" cards in MD against combo (aka removal)
Second: Cabal Therapy isn't even dedicated combo-hate. You can use it in a variety of MU where it hits obvious winconditions even without flashback (and thus without being psychic)

In your first post on this page you wrote that TES is a tough MU. Thats only true when your sideboard doesn't contain combohate. Many comboplayers are a paranoid bunch of doomsayers. They won't take us lightly at any time of the match, just because they know that we have access to so many different combo-hate cards. As anecdotal evidence: on the Dutch Legacy champs I kept a rather fast hand (without combo hate) by confidently saying "Keep". My opp told me afterwards that he mulled to 5 to find duress or orim's chant, just because he feared combo hate. Mind game them...they always expect us to have either combo hate on our opening hand or to take mulligan to find some. That makes them keep slow hand with protection-spells.

It isn't an argument against combo. If you read the post before, we are discussing the applications of Cabal Therapy and Chalice of the Void outside of combo. But to be clear, all of our removal (well mine, since I don't play Warren Weirding) are creatures, so I don't really have dead cards in the match up. I have slow cards. I'm not hating on Cabal Therapy, calm down.

Well obviously I tested various combo-hate boards before I decided that the effort is useless. I wouldn't say it is a tough matchup without trying to sideboard heavily. I've tried his 4x Chalice of the Void, 1x Thorn of Amethyst set up before I decided that having it or not having it doesn't really matter. Again you are supporting my theory. Having combo hate is pointless. You just have to bluff them out and you can win. My game plan is board in some aggro cards (so far my Goblin Chieftain is all I got) and then talk about mindbreak traps when I start boarding.

It's pretty awesome. Obviously I tell them that I never drew it afterwards so I could use it again next time. LOL






Why I Love Chalice-
- It turns off 10-12 free spells that give free mana (Petal, Mox, LED) in their deck (TES, ANT, Belcher) when you play it for 0. These spells not only accelerate their mana, but also serve as important enablers for their Tutors. With Chalice at 0 they can't play an LED to sack in response to an Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish, which in turn makes those tutor cards much less efficient for their gameplan.
- Chalice is the fastest and most resilient threat against storm combo. On the draw, any hate card can be Duressed away, whether it's Chalice or Mindbreak or Thorn. On the play Chalice can be played alongside a 1-drop T1. A T1 Chalice cannot be negated by T2 discard effects or Orim's Chant/Silence/Xantid Swarm effects. Since Storm Combo decks usually run hand disruption rather than removal, having a permanent in play against them is prefered.


You don't have to convince me why Chalice of the Void is good. If I had to choose only 1 combo-hate to win, I'd choose Chalice, but the fact of the matter is if you hope to actually hate out combo, you must diversify your hate. I play TES, so you don't have to tell me they might Duress it away. Against inexperienced combo players, they might not Duress you after seeing that you are Goblins game 1. On game 3, if they decide to Duress you, if you have both Mindbreak Trap and Chalice, they have a difficult choice. Obviously they are going to take the Chalice, but I'm just saying. Slowing them down helps.

Chalice of the Void is the most annoying thing to remove, but they can remove it. So why bother having 5 Chalices which they can remove when you can diversify let them have more problems. Sometimes, they are short on mana and won't Duress you on the combo turn. It happens. Double Dark Ritual Ad Nauseam only makes 5 mana. Not to mention that plays around Chalice and right into Mindbreak Trap.

I'm not saying Chalice of the Void is bad, I'm just saying go big, or go home.

[jrw1985]

that's not a 3rd turn hand. Ýou don't have haste. No wonder you are GoboLord, your Goblins have auto-haste...
T1 Mountain, lackey
T2 Mountain, attack with Lackey for 1, trigger SGC into play, cast Piledriver
T3 Attack with lackey, tokens, SGC and a 11/2 Piledriver for 17 damage. Sac a token off SGC for 2 damage. 1+17+2= 20 and a T3 kill.



You don't have to convince me why Chalice of the Void is good. If I had to choose only 1 combo-hate to win, I'd choose Chalice, but the fact of the matter is if you hope to actually hate out combo, you must diversify your hate. I play TES, so you don't have to tell me they might Duress it away. Against inexperienced combo players, they might not Duress you after seeing that you are Goblins game 1. On game 3, if they decide to Duress you, if you have both Mindbreak Trap and Chalice, they have a difficult choice. Obviously they are going to take the Chalice, but I'm just saying. Slowing them down helps.

Chalice of the Void is the most annoying thing to remove, but they can remove it. So why bother having 5 Chalices which they can remove when you can diversify let them have more problems. Sometimes, they are short on mana and won't Duress you on the combo turn. It happens. Double Dark Ritual Ad Nauseam only makes 5 mana. Not to mention that plays around Chalice and right into Mindbreak Trap.

I'm not saying Chalice of the Void is bad, I'm just saying go big, or go home.
So what's "big"? No combo hate or 6 SB slots of combo hate? As a TES player, what would you reasonably expect a SB look like to beat you?

[Vandalize]

Why are you guys so afraid of Combo? It's a hard matchup, I know, but it doesn't need 6 SB slots for it... 4 Chalice of the Void is usually enough (since it can be used in another matchups as well). If you split 3 CotV and 3 Mindbreak trap, along with 3 Pyrokinesis and 3 Kgrips or 3 Cabal Therapy, there isn't much space left for Graveyard hate, or even artifact hate... You'll rape Combo and get raped by any deck that abuses GY (aka Dredge/Aggro Loam/KotR stuff/Reanimator), or even Affinity, which is usually a good matchup. I'd give priority to popular decks... Even in a "heavy" Combo metagame, I'd only expect to see 2~3 out of 10 players, because it's an expensive and complex deck to play.

[Doomsday]

Why are you guys so afraid of Combo? It's a hard matchup, I know, but it doesn't need 6 SB slots for it... 4 Chalice of the Void is usually enough (since it can be used in another matchups as well). If you split 3 CotV and 3 Mindbreak trap, along with 3 Pyrokinesis and 3 Kgrips or 3 Cabal Therapy, there isn't much space left for Graveyard hate, or even artifact hate... You'll rape Combo and get raped by any deck that abuses GY (aka Dredge/Aggro Loam/KotR stuff/Reanimator), or even Affinity, which is usually a good matchup. I'd give priority to popular decks... Even in a "heavy" Combo metagame, I'd only expect to see 2~3 out of 10 players, because it's an expensive and complex deck to play.

You are not going to "rape" combo decks with 6 sideboard cards with this deck. Literally, the only relevant maindeck cards you have are Wasteland and maybe Port (and Port is not especially effective at all). Like you said in the second part, your best hope against combo is praying not to see it in significant numbers. Banking on the control decks sending it to the lower tables and then beating up on control decks is a perfectly legitimate metagame strategy though.

[jin]

T1 Mountain, lackey
T2 Mountain, attack with Lackey for 1, trigger SGC into play, cast Piledriver
T3 Attack with lackey, tokens, SGC and a 11/2 Piledriver for 17 damage. Sac a token off SGC for 2 damage. 1+17+2= 20 and a T3 kill.

I always Port or Wasteland, so that didn't occur to me. I'm afraid the combo player will have 2 open mana on their turn. Very nice though, maybe I'll try that next time. My apologies to GoboLord.



So what's "big"? No combo hate or 6 SB slots of combo hate? As a TES player, what would you reasonably expect a SB look like to beat you?

Yes, that would be "big," considering the general concensus is if you have 6, you are playing too many. I would say diversity. TES is quite susceptible to mana denial. I'd get annoyed at Chalice @ 0, but I honestly don't think it alone will win the game.

Against Merfolk, mana denial + a clock usually kills me because I'm finding lands + Duress to get rid of countermagic + I'm getting beat. I think Mindbreak Trap in combination with Chalice + port and wasteland would have the same effect. I think discard is quite good against Combo, but only if they don't expect it. If you fetched Badland first turn, I think most combo players will see it coming.


You are not going to "rape" combo decks with 6 sideboard cards with this deck. Literally, the only relevant maindeck cards you have are Wasteland and maybe Port (and Port is not especially effective at all). Like you said in the second part, your best hope against combo is praying not to see it in significant numbers. Banking on the control decks sending it to the lower tables and then beating up on control decks is a perfectly legitimate metagame strategy though.

agreed

[BWM]

They don't play Swords to Plowshares and Vindicates?

Ofcourse they do, but they need the Swords to remove the lackeys on turn 1... You're only losing to double-plague and as soon as they reach that, you have them at 5-10 life most of the time and probably depleted their hand...

[jin]

Ofcourse they do, but they need the Swords to remove the lackeys on turn 1... You're only losing to double-plague and as soon as they reach that, you have them at 5-10 life most of the time and probably depleted their hand...

why would they swords your lackey when they are holdling plague?

[practical joke]

why would they swords your lackey when they are holdling plague?

I don't know? possible T3 kill?

From my own experience:

I was once playing against Eva green and T1 lackey- Go, he does nothing.
I attack with lackey, drop warchief, play chieftain.
his T2, he drops SDT, tops..does nothing really.
T3, drop piledriver, chieftain. kick his butt!

he reveals his hand, 2x land, 1 pulse, 2x plague, 1x 5/5 flying fatty.


now it's still a very good reason to T1 stp or snuff out that lackey.

[jin]

I don't know? possible T3 kill?

From my own experience:

I was once playing against Eva green and T1 lackey- Go, he does nothing.
I attack with lackey, drop warchief, play chieftain.
his T2, he drops SDT, tops..does nothing really.
T3, drop piledriver, chieftain. kick his butt!

he reveals his hand, 2x land, 1 pulse, 2x plague, 1x 5/5 flying fatty.


now it's still a very good reason to T1 stp or snuff out that lackey.

I see. You guys get possible T3 kills quite often. How should I increase this? More Chieftains? More Seige Gangas? I can't play more Piledrivers...

[practical joke]

I see. You guys get possible T3 kills quite often. How should I increase this? More Chieftains? More Seige Gangas? I can't play more Piledrivers...

If you play mono-red....more lords in SB against plagues works fine.
then again I play 5 lords mainboard (4 chieftains and 1 boartusk and 2 more boartusks in SB against firespout and plagues)

[DragoFireheart]

why would they swords your lackey when they are holdling plague?

So they don't lose?

[Nameless Two]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on the forum, although I've read most of this goblin thread over the past half a year.


I see. You guys get possible T3 kills quite often. How should I increase this? More Chieftains? More Seige Gangas? I can't play more Piledrivers...

Beating combo by just winning before they do, that would be... awesome. T3 kills happen every now and then, but very few without Lackey and Piledriver.

But just because I like puzzling I've done some research. Common builds (although many builds don't run Instigator, Chieftain, Stingscourger* or Lightning Bolt) can come up with these kind of T3 wins.

*Stingscourger can usually be replaced with any goblin.

I'll repeat some of those mentioned above, just to have it in one post.

T1 Lackey
T2 SGC + Piledriver
T3 Attack and sac a Goblin for the final point of damage.

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + MWM + Piledriver
T3 Matron + Stingscourger (removing a blocker even!)

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Matron
T3 Piledriver + Stingscourger + MWM

T1 Lackey
T2 Piledriver + Piledriver
T3 Chieftain

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Chieftain
T3 Piledriver + Stingscourger

T1 Lackey
T2 Chieftain + Piledriver
T3 MWM + Lackey

T1 Lackey
T2 Chieftain + Piledriver
T3 MWM + Lightning Bolt

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Matron
T3 Piledriver + Piledriver + Any goblin/bolt.

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Matron
T3 Chieftain + Piledriver

or depending on what order you draw your spells in:

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Chieftain
T3 Matron + Piledriver


There are probably a couple more like this, once you get Lackey + Warchief + Piledriver, the other goblins/bolts are variable.

Wins without Piledriver

T1 Lackey
T2 SGC + Instigator
T3 Chieftain + Chieftain on Instigators first trigger.

T1 Lackey
T2 SGC + Instigator
T3 Chieftain + Sacrifice a goblin + Lightning Bolt

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Chieftain
T3 MWM + Chieftain

T1 Lackey
T2 SGC + Lightning Bolt + Lightning Bolt
T3 Chieftain

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Instigator
T3 The ridiculous MWM + MWM + (MWM Or Bolt) + Chieftain. Which will only work on the draw, not so good!

And then, the Lackeyless wins

Not going to happen unless you have Skirk Prospector, Goblin Guide or Goblin Bushwhacker.

T1 Vial
T2 Piledriver + Bushwhacker
T3 Piledriver + Bushwhacker

T1 Goblin Guide
T2 Piledriver
T3 Goblin Guide + Goblin Guide + Lightning Bolt (yeah right)

T1 Goblin Guide
T2 Goblin Guide + Goblin Guide
T3 Lightning Bolt + Bushwhacker

And maybe a few more of those ridiculous multiple Goblin Guided hands but there is a good reason not to play that many Goblin Guides!

Now Skirk Prospector has some options:

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Warchief
T3 Piledriver + Piledriver + Stingscourger

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 MWM -> Warchief
T3 Matron -> Piledriver + MWM + Matron -> Piledriver

T1 Vial
T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
T3 Warchief + MWM + Lightning Bolt + Lightning Bolt. Not going to happen on the play.

T1 Vial
T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
T3 Warchief + MWM + Matron -> MWM -> Siege-gang. Not going to happen on the play.

But Prospector also opens up more T3 Lackey kills, like:

T1 Lackey
T2 Ringleader + Skirk Prospector
T3 Warchief + MWM + Matron + MWM + SGC + Piledriver or pretty much anything if you have enough Matrons/Ringleaders/MWM...

Anyways, no more time to waste on thinking up T3 kills at the moment, but I'll work on some more later (I'll add a couple of Goblin Lookout ones as well, and maybe a Sharpshooter-prospector one too).

Note!

Many of these T3 kills require lots of mountains, so they aren't port/wasteland friendly...

Note #2, I rarely play tournaments, but I've played the game for a long time and read a lot about tournaments, this post is mostly born out of my goldfish habits and I know that the chances on some of these are ridiculously tiny.

Note #3, There are many many more T3 kills possible if the opponent takes 1 or 2 damage from fetches.

And erm, thanks for posting on this thread everyone! I enjoyed reading it.

[(nameless one)]

This dude copied my name :(

The problem with about is that not everyone runs Chieftain, let alone Bushwackers. Some run only single Prospectors.

I think the combo matchup is all based on luck on game one. Games two and three all depends on your dedicated hate. Some say that Chalice of the Void is effective while other run Thorn of Amethyst since it can also help against problematic control decks (such as Enchantress?).

[GoboLord]

Good job. I really like this summary of T3-kills and I really want to hear more about them, especially those with Lookout.
You made a note that you need 8 cards for some of those options - could you also add notes where we can go wild with even mulligan 6?
Thanks for that!

[jrw1985]

This dude copied my name :(

The problem with about is that not everyone runs Chieftain, let alone Bushwackers. Some run only single Prospectors.
.

Boo. Hater.

It's a good list of kills. I hadn't stopped to think of all the ways the deck can knock a combo deck out quickly without hate, and this list was definitely an eye opener. It's making me rethink running Warcheif and Chieftains as 3-ofs. Warchief should probably be a 4-of.

[Humphrey]

This thread definitly needs a new one with an actual primer.
The questions and discussions about the card choices, especially SB combohate will fill endless sites otherwise.
I really think half year ago we came to the up and downs of the 3-5 cards that are interesting for goblins.

btw good to see how well goblins are doing now that survival is gone.

[Nameless Two]

This dude copied my name :(

The problem with about is that not everyone runs Chieftain, let alone Bushwackers. Some run only single Prospectors.

I think the combo matchup is all based on luck on game one. Games two and three all depends on your dedicated hate. Some say that Chalice of the Void is effective while other run Thorn of Amethyst since it can also help against problematic control decks (such as Enchantress?).

Sorry Nameless One, I hadn't checked but I assumed anyone that would want the name would take it clean... and apparently that name was open. My sincere apologies.

Bushwhackers aren't popular in Legacy, I know, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered. Especially if you are in a small combo heavy metagame. (Like mine often is, I'd say 60% combo on some occasions) And for the purpose of figuring out T3 kills they are fun stuff.

Single prospectors still add to the chances of things happening. T3 Kills are rare, prospector or no prospector.
Being lucky will ofcourse be more important. Beating combo can be done by having good dedicated hate, and it can be done by reducing their chances. I don't think killing them before T3 is a valid strategy simply because the chances are slim.

But I think it is a good thing to realise that sometimes you can just race. And I like extreme measures, like taking out all Vials, Ringleaders and Incinerators for Guides, Chieftains and Bushwhackers. (Yes this is terribly bad and I wouldn't recommend a waste of 12 sideboard slots, I just had nothing else on me at the time and this was good fun)

Also: I don't have Wastelands or Rishadan Ports, I play with Mutavaults instead. (Partly a Metagame issue, lots of monocolored/basic land decks/decks without lands)

Allright, for GoboLord a few Lookout ones:

T1 Lackey
T2 Lookout + Warchief
T3 Chieftain + MWM

T1 Lackey
T2 Lookout + Chieftain
T3 MWM + Lackey

T1 Lackey
T2 Piledriver + Warchief
T3 Lookout + Stingscourger

T1 Vial
T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
T3 Warchief + MWM + Lookout

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Warchief
T3 Piledriver + Piledriver + Lookout

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 MWM
T3 MWM + Lookout + Bushwhacker + Lightning Bolt

T1 Lackey
T2 Instigator + Lookout
T3 Skirk Prospector + Bushwhacker

T1 Vial
T2 Instigator + Skirk Prospector
T3 Instigator + Bushwhacker + Lookout

T1 Vial
T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
T3 Lookout + Bushwhacker + Lightning Bolt

There are probably some more... will think up some later...

As for the hands, basically count the cards used. Most of the time 3 lands are required on turn 3 so up to 6 other cards can be used on the play, 7 on the draw. Prospector opens a lot of random chains on turn three if you get enough MWM to start chaining and go on with Ringleader (prospector is the only enabler for wins with a Ringleader off your lackey attack on turn 2 I believe...)

T1 Lackey
T2 Ringleader + Skirk Prospector
T3 Warchief + MWM (sac lackey) + Ringleader + Matron (sac both Ringleaders) + MWM + Piledriver + Chieftain + Skirk Prospector + Lackey

That is 12 goblins + 3 lands used but Matron and 2 Ringleaders could have netted us 6 of those I guess. (long chains like this can go in a bazillion directions so I can't work out all the possible T3 kills ever...)

The few T3 kills that only feature 5 cards are the ones you could still get on the play on a mulligan to 6. The Lackey + SGC + Piledriver hand is the cleanest and can be done with a mulligan to 4 on the play.

And yeah jrw, the Warchiefs and Chieftains do come up a lot on these quick kills... Haste is often necessary, so if there are no Warchiefs or Chieftains I have to fix that gap with Bushwhackers or maybe some other options.

And Humphrey, it's only sad that the death of survival had to be the cause ;)

[jin]

This dude copied my name :(

The problem with about is that not everyone runs Chieftain, let alone Bushwackers. Some run only single Prospectors.

I think the combo matchup is all based on luck on game one. Games two and three all depends on your dedicated hate. Some say that Chalice of the Void is effective while other run Thorn of Amethyst since it can also help against problematic control decks (such as Enchantress?).

LOL I thought it was you!


...

Thanks so much. This definately should be on the primer! Great job. I'm glad you included cards that rarely see play so that we can find out what are the most common cards included in this 3rd turn kill. Thanks so much. I'm horrible at math so this will help me a lot in sideboarding against combo!

Hey got anything with kiki-Jiki or Goblin Pyromancer? Just curious...

Boo. Hater.

It's a good list of kills. I hadn't stopped to think of all the ways the deck can knock a combo deck out quickly without hate, and this list was definitely an eye opener. It's making me rethink running Warcheif and Chieftains as 3-ofs. Warchief should probably be a 4-of.

Yeah seems like Skirk Prospector/MwM/Chieftain are quite involved in these. In addition, I noticed Lightning Bolt was also quite common. Instigator was surprisingly scarce though but not absent.

He also presents a good argumetn for Stingscourger. Removes a blocker!! We can send Emrakul back when he shows up to ruin our turn 3 hands.

[Nameless Two]

And another few I thought up while being unable to sleep...

T1 Lackey
T2 Skirk Prospector + Goblin Sharpshooter
T3 MWM + Ringleader + SGC (off lackey) then start sacrificing the goblins to the SGC for the final points...

T1 Lackey
T2 Instigator + Instigator
T3 Chieftain + Lookout

And lets try something with Kiki-Jiki who is surprisingly elegant at providing t3 wins with Lackey & Chieftain

T1 Lackey
T2 Kiki-Jiki + MWM
T3 Chieftain

T1 Lackey
T2 Kiki-Jiki + Piledriver
T3 Chieftain

T1 Lackey
T2 Kiki-Jiki + Instigator
T3 Chieftain + (Chieftain/Goblin Lookout)

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Skirk Prospector
T3 MWM + Kiki-Jiki + Piledriver + Tarfire? (Not going to happen on the play)

One I missed earlier on (of the many)

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Warchief
T3 MWM + Piledriver + Lookout

And some Pyromancer ones

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Piledriver + Lookout
T3 Pyromancer (one of the more overkill-ones), 33 damage

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Piledriver
T3 Pyromancer Will easily do the job as well.

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + MWM
T3 Pyromancer

And one that might be very important, it doesn't reach 20, but 19 and is relatively easy since it can function on Matron finding Pyromancer. Opponent will have to fetch though...

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Matron
T3 Pyromancer

or 20 with

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Matron
T3 Pyromancer + Mogg Fanatic

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 MWM + Warchief
T3 Pyromancer + ( Lightning Bolt/MWM/Piledriver )

And then something that will rarely happen again:

T1 Lackey
T2 Kiki-Jiki + MWM
T3 Skirk Prospector + Pyromancer

T1 Vial
T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
T3 Warchief + MWM + Pyromancer

And one more for fun

T1 Lackey
T2 Chieftain + Piledriver
T3 Chieftain + Mogg Fanatic

T1 Lackey
T2 SGC + MWM
T3 Chieftain + Lightning Crafter

T1 Lackey
T2 Piledriver + Piledriver
T3 Warchief + Lightning Crafter

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Warchief
T3 Matron + Matron + Piledriver + Mogg Fanatic

And the horribly bad

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Tuktuk
T3 Warren Weirding + Piledriver

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Piledriver + Piledriver
T3 Mutavault

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + MWM + Piledriver
T3 Mutavault + (Stingscourger/Mogg Fanatic/Tarfire/Whatever)

More will come probably..

[GoboLord]

@ Primer:
Yeah this thread needs a new primer. I really like to write one since I already wrote a Goblin primer for a German legacy-forum (and got some postive feedback). It won't be an 1:1 translation, cause I want to include recent developments and ideas (which my primer lacks). Plus, FoulQ emailed me his Goblin-primer long ago, which I found very good. I'll try to come up with some mix of FoulQ's and my own primer with updates from recent discussions. Maybe someone is willing to read it before I "publish" it - just let me now via PM.

[ScatmanX]

Just to post one I like a lot:

T1 Lackey
T2 Kiki Jiki
T3 Lightning Crafter + Prospector.

That can be done with a 3 cards hand on the play.
Sweet.

Edit: Sweet Jesus!

Land + Lackey+ Kiki + Crafter + Prospector + MWM + MWM kills on Turn 2!
I need to do that in a tournament!

[Nameless Two]

Ahh! Sweet, now that's thinking outside my box ;).

Opens up to

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Lackey
T3 Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter too (stack it correctly, it'll work)

Or

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Instigator
T3 Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter

Or

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Matron
T3 Kiki-Jiki + Skirk Prospector + Lightning Crafter

T1
T2 Instigator
T3 Skirk Prospector + Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Instigator
T3 Matron + Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Instigator
T3 Ringleader + Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Instigator
T3 Matron + Ringleader + Kiki-Jiki + MWM + Lightning Crafter

Maybe even more coming later...

Thanks ScatmanX

Edit:

And that turn 2 kill is cool, for those who can't figure it out:

T1 Mountain, Lackey
T2 Mountain, Trigger lackey to bring Kiki-Jiki into play, cast prospector, sac lackey and tap mountain to cast MWM, sac MWM and the 2 tokens for 3 mana, play MWM sac the MWM and the 2 tokens for 3 Mana (4 mana total now), play Crafter.
Before championing, copy the Crafter with your Kiki-Jiki, champion Kiki-Jiki with the copy, shoot your opponent before championing the Lightning Crafter copy.
Your Kiki-Jiki returns to copy the Lightning Crafter who champions Kiki-Jiki. You now sac the Lightning Crafter to your prospector after pinging your opponent. Kiki-Jiki returns and you can loop this to deal any amount of damage to your opponent. Brilliant!

[jin]

T1 Lackey
T2 Skirk Prospector + Goblin Sharpshooter
T3 MWM + Ringleader + SGC (off lackey) then start sacrificing the goblins to the SGC for the final points...


I was trying to avoid Lightning Crafter, but there you go. LOL. I quoted this one because I was working on it for awhile and couldn't figure it out. I could only deal 16 damage. What did I miss count?



T1 Lackey
T2 Kiki-Jiki + MWM
T3 Chieftain


hmm,.. are you copying mogg war marshal T2? ... yes n/m that makes sense...

[InResponseForceOfWill]

No discussion on here yet about the newly spoiled Goblin Wardriver? I don't think he'll see play. If he was 1R instead of RR, I'd sure as hell make room for some.

[Nameless Two]

I was trying to avoid Lightning Crafter, but there you go. LOL. I quoted this one because I was working on it for awhile and couldn't figure it out. I could only deal 16 damage. What did I miss count?


T1 Lackey
T2 Skirk Prospector + Goblin Sharpshooter
T3 MWM + Ringleader + SGC

T1 No damage
T2 Lackey attacks (19)
T3 Tap Sharpshooter (18)
Cast MWM, sac MWM, tap SS again (17)
Sac both tokens, tap SS twice (15)
Cast Ringleader
Attack With Ringleader + Lackey + Prospector (11)
Put SGC into play
Sac 2 tokens for mana and one for SGC, tap SS thrice (6)
Sac Lackey + Ringleader for mana and SGC to itself, tap SS thrice (1)
Sac Prospector for mana, untap SS one last time to kill. (0)


As for the new goblin, it's on page 303 starting on post #6049. And yeah, RR is just not going to be good enough I suppose, but even at 1R he'd have a hard time making it in.

[jin]

No discussion on here yet about the newly spoiled Goblin Wardriver? I don't think he'll see play. If he was 1R instead of RR, I'd sure as hell make room for some.

go a few pages back, we went through it already


T1 Lackey
T2 Skirk Prospector + Goblin Sharpshooter
T3 MWM + Ringleader + SGC

T1 No damage
T2 Lackey attacks (19)
T3 Tap Sharpshooter (18)
Cast MWM, sac MWM, tap SS again (17)
Sac both tokens, tap SS twice (15)
Cast Ringleader
Attack With Ringleader + Lackey + Prospector (11)
Put SGC into play
Sac 2 tokens for mana and one for SGC, tap SS thrice (6)
Sac Lackey + Ringleader for mana and SGC to itself, tap SS thrice (1)
Sac Prospector for mana, untap SS one last time to kill. (0)



Wow, I got up to 6, but I just couldn't figure out how to finish. That was great. Makes me rethink the values of skirk prospector...

[Nameless Two]

Another fun one:

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Warchief
T3 Matron + Skirk Prospector + Sharsphooter + Matron + Matron + Matron + SGC

T1 Lackey
T2 Lackey + Lackey + SGC
T3 Chieftain + Skirk Prospector

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Skirk Prospector + Skirk Prospector
T3 Warchief + MWM + Ringleader + MWM + Ringleader + MWM + Matron + MWM + Warchief + Matron + Ringleader + Piledriver + Piledriver

The above one is absolutely ridiculous ofcourse... (if you add some SGC/Lackey/Stingscourgers you can even pull this off against blockers though)

T1 Lackey
T2 Lookout + Chieftain
T3 Lookout + Mogg Fanatic

T1 Vial
T2 MWM + Skirk Prospector + Warchief
T3 Instigator + Ringleader + Lookout + (SGC/Lightning Bolt/Sharpshooter)

^ that is probably more elegantly played this way:
T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Instigator
T3 MWM + Warchief + Lookout + Sharpshooter/SGC, but well then you'd be 1 damage short! And we can't all have Prospector on turn 1 ;)

And another three without a 2 drop this time (opening up for t2 removal on a blocker):

T1 Lackey
T2 SGC
T3 Chieftain + Skirk Prospector + Lightning Bolt

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief
T3 Piledriver + MWM + MWM

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief
T3 Piledriver + Piledriver + (Lightning Bolt/Lackey/Mogg Fanatic/MWM/Stingscourger/Bushwhacker/Lookout/Tar Fire/Goblin Mime...)

And another vial one:

T1 Vial
T2 Piledriver + (Skirk Prospector/Lackey/Mogg Fanatic/Bushwhacker)
T3 Piledriver + Chieftain

[bruno_tiete]

If I get it correctly, Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki need no other card to be a turn 3 kill. Just make a copy at opponent's end step, so that it stays around for your turn and attack for 22 with triple Piledriver plus Lackey.

[ScatmanX]

If I get it correctly, Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki need no other card to be a turn 3 kill. Just make a copy at opponent's end step, so that it stays around for your turn and attack for 22 with triple Piledriver plus Lackey.
You got it correcty.

[(nameless one)]

Hey Two,

What does your current list look like?

[jrw1985]

If I get it correctly, Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki need no other card to be a turn 3 kill. Just make a copy at opponent's end step, so that it stays around for your turn and attack for 22 with triple Piledriver plus Lackey.


You got it correcty.

Wait just a minute! I thought the whole "In Response To The End Of The End Phase" stopped working circa 2000. People always tried adding mana in response to the end of their opponent's turn, then using that mana at the end of their untap step to combo off. But that doesn't work anymore, right? You can't do something in response to the end of the turn because priority still has to pass before turn ends. There's no gray area between turns, so you can't make a Piledriver token that would stay around for next turn.

In other words, I believe you guys are mistaken.

[Avatara]

Wait just a minute! I thought the whole "In Response To The End Of The End Phase" stopped working circa 2000. People always tried adding mana in response to the end of their opponent's turn, then using that mana at the end of their untap step to combo off. But that doesn't work anymore, right? You can't do something in response to the end of the turn because priority still has to pass before turn ends. There's no gray area between turns, so you can't make a Piledriver token that would stay around for next turn.

In other words, I believe you guys are mistaken.

A lot of cards say: Untill the beginning of the next end step...

[Nameless Two]

If I get it correctly, Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki need no other card to be a turn 3 kill. Just make a copy at opponent's end step, so that it stays around for your turn and attack for 22 with triple Piledriver plus Lackey.

Works I believe, I should've read Kiki-Jiki and figured that out ... guess I've become too confident in my card-knowledge...

As for (nameless one):

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Warren Instigator
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

4 Aether Vial

4 Mutavault
18 Mountain

Sideboard:

3 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Relic of the Progenitus
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Because I don't use Wasteland I feel comfortable running 22 lands, the 2 Warren Instigators in the main deck are very nice against combo, which comes around in many variations (Belcher/Storm Enchantress/Eggstorm/Dream Halls/Ad Nauseam/Depths). There is also quite a bit of Merfolk around, so I like to have all 4 Gempalm Incinerators in there as well as the Stingscourgers. (Bouncing a lord can sometimes be enough to turn combat in your favor.)
The Stingscourgers have nearly always been great, but I think 2 is enough, often when you need them you can find them. The 1 Skirk Prospector is there just because I like the guy. And I hate keeping hands without 1 drops.

The Sideboard is a bit whacky. Quite a few Engineered Plagues come around, so thats why there are 4 lords in the board. I often just take out one or two Ringleaders, a Siege-Gang and the Warren Instigators.
The Jittes are there to fight off other Jittes (Often in aggro vs aggro, Jittes are very good, so I figured, why not play them instead of artifact hate?)
The Scrapper is there to tutor for if you get completely owned by some artifacts (like Jitte)...
I take out a Ringleader, a Chieftain and a Stingscourger just because I have to make the cuts somewhere.
Against Stompy/Slivers/Zoo I board in the War Marshals, Sharpshooter and the Jittes. Taking out the Stingscourger, a Matron an Instigator and a Vial.
Reanimator needs Relics, unfortunately they also bring in Plagues, so I have to board in lots, often the Vials have to go here...
Against non-creature combo, I take out the Stingscourgers & Incinerators and put in the Mogg War Marshals, Chieftain, Sharpshooter and a Liege. (although I'm starting to believe I should put a Kiki-Jiki in my board)
The combo players in my area simply don't have all the cards to make their decks the best possible builds. Without the LEDs you can actually try to race the Belcher player for example...
There is no pure control deck in my area...

So all in all, this information was probably mostly useless, just because I never play on big tournaments. My deck is kind of converted to mini-metagame version of Goblins. That doesn't mean I can't think big. I know what is out there...

[ScatmanX]

In other words, I believe you guys are mistaken.
Kiki Jiki reads: Tap: Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.

End Step is, well, a Step... and you can do things in that Step, like copying something with Kiki-Jiki. Since the beginning of your opponents End Step has already passed, you will only need to sacrifice the creature "at the beginning of the next end step", also known as your End Step, so the creature survives to attack in your turn.



The Sideboard is a bit whacky. Quite a few Engineered Plagues come around, so thats why there are 4 lords in the board. I often just take out one or two Ringleaders, a Siege-Gang and the Warren Instigators.
...
The Scrapper is there to tutor for if you get completely owned by some artifacts (like Jitte)...
I take out a Ringleader, a Chieftain and a Stingscourger just because I have to make the cuts somewhere.
...
Against Stompy/Slivers/Zoo I board in the War Marshals, Sharpshooter and the Jittes. Taking out the Stingscourger, a Matron an Instigator and a Vial.
...
Reanimator needs Relics, unfortunately they also bring in Plagues, so I have to board in lots, often the Vials have to go here...
1 - I think you're taking out Ringleaders too often. I mean, if we dillute our deck, bringing in non-goblin cards, it's acceptable taking them out, but you're bringing in 4 Goblins, and taking out Ringleader? That's just wrong.
2 - Don't take Vial out against Stompy. Their the best out you have against Chalice / 3Sphere. And don't take Matron either. It can search for high cc goblins, that win the game, like SGC.
3 - Vial needs to stay against Reanimator. Their your best shot against an reanimated Iona (by best I mean only). Here I think it could be acceptable to take out a Ringleader, because you really don't want to win the game on the back of card-advantege, but you want to race them.

[Nameless Two]

Scatman X, you are right!

I often find myself with many Ringleaders or Matrons that can find Ringleaders anyways, which is why they so often get the cut... I should probably not do it... but have any better suggestions? Keep in mind that there are high converted manacost goblins coming in aswell...

Ah yeah, the local stompy version doesn't run Chalice/3Sphere, its a green stompy deck, quite unlike the Faerie/Dragon stompy versions... sorry for confusing you all!

Vials, keep em in against Reanimator... ofcourse I should do that, that was just stupid.

[jrw1985]

A lot of cards say: Untill the beginning of the next end step...


Kiki Jiki reads: Tap: Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.

End Step is, well, a Step... and you can do things in that Step, like copying something with Kiki-Jiki. Since the beginning of your opponents End Step has already passed, you will only need to sacrifice the creature "at the beginning of the next end step", also known as your End Step, so the creature survives to attack in your turn.


I never knew that Kiki had errata. The printed text is just "Sacrifice it at end of turn."

Are there any other fun goblins tricks you all know?

[Pneumatiker]

I never knew that Kiki had errata. The printed text is just "Sacrifice it at end of turn."

I don't think that's an errata for Kiki but all older effects reading "Sacrifice it at end of turn" now trigger at the beginning of the end step. Or am I incorrect with that?

[Zörg]

All this talk of EOT Kiki makes me wanna try it =)
This is my current deck, i am thinking about taking out my cheiftain or a MWM. Any opinions?

CREATURES (31)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

INSTANTS (3)
3 Lightning Bolt

ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Aether Vial

LANDS (22)
14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vexing Shusher

[JonBarber]

Kiki jiki is actually terrible. Its the definition of a win more card. If they have removal, he way worse than a ringleader or a siege gang. If they don't have removal, you should be winning anyways.

Nameless, I highly recommend cutting mutavaults for wastelands and ports. This deck is so much worse without them.

[Nameless Two]

Kiki jiki is actually terrible. Its the definition of a win more card. If they have removal, he way worse than a ringleader or a siege gang. If they don't have removal, you should be winning anyways.

Nameless, I highly recommend cutting mutavaults for wastelands and ports. This deck is so much worse without them.

Kiki - Jiki is probably only good in the combo matchup. Since they lack removal...

And I know Jon, I just don't have the Wastelands and Ports. It plays different without them for sure...

[sligh16]

Kiki-Jiki is not terrible. It gives you the edge in matchups where you must play as a control player, generating incredible card advantage. Even if your opponent has a removal, kiki has haste, so you can copy a matron or ringleader or anything. Actually, is very rare that kiki gets killed, because usually at the time when you play kiki, your opponent has played his removal in other goblins.

It's like Wort, but wort costs 1 less and dosn't have haste. I still think that comparing him with SGC is not correct, because SGC is much more mana dependant, and his role usually revolves around giving you instant win (when dropped with lackey) or delivering the last points of damage.
Kiki's role is usually overwhelming an aggro opponent when the match has reached the late game.

But really, Kiki is a complement to SGC and to all the deck. I like to think of him as the goblin planeswalker, because every turn you get a bunch of new effects and cards. And, he is so much fun! :tongue:

Ps: Try testing him against Zoo, he's been great for me.

[bakofried]

I agree, he's great, but only when you've landed a Matron, or a Ringleader, or a Siege-Gang Commander- cards that give you the inevitable CA that wins you the MU's when you need them. Furthermore, you're valuing SGC wrong - he's as good of a control tool as he is an aggressive tool. On top of all this, those 3 sources of CA are strong on their own (ripping them off the top) and fairly strong against removal.

[stumPen]

Kiki can also do great Job with MWM, Piledriver or Chieftain or even Sharshooter in Play. So I dont see the reason not playing him. He a ridiculous CA machine and want to be played.
Btw. Stingscouger and Kiki in Play is a Bounce every Round.

[anotherday]

Is it really necessary to list all the things Kiki-Jiki can do with the rest of the deck? It doesn't take a genius to see that he is golden when there are other goblins on the battlefield, but therein lies the problem; Kiki NEEDS other goblins to be effective. Hell, Kiki needs other creatures to be of any use at all! If you're gonna be running a 5cc goblin, I don't see any reason to choose Kiki over SGC. Both cards can break stalemates, but Commander is less dead in more situations.

- SGC has a less prohibitive mana cost, and let's face it, you're not always gonna be able to cheat your bombs onto the battlefield.
- Who would you rather drop turn 2 during a Lackey activation? SGC gets my vote.
- And the number 1 reason to not run Kiki: He is a DEAD top deck whereas a top decked SGC can swing the game in your favor, if not win it outright. Of course, a competent goblin player would do their best to avoid this scenario, but alas, it does happen from time to time.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Kiki-Jiki when he gets going, but in the end, I'll take the safer (if not equally powerful) bet in SGC.

[bakofried]

Essentially everything anotherday said. It's been debated, but in the end, SGC wins as the 5-drop goblin of choice. You don't have many slots to work with at that manacost, so you have to make them count, and SGC is superior in the situations where you need a bomb.

[jin]

@Two:
Your list is quite aggressive. It looks really good for the lack of Wastelands/Ports

@Kiki Jiki:
Sorry, i only asked about Kiki-Jiki because I don't have a 3rd Siege-Gang Commander and wanted to win in 3 turns with him in the sideboard against combo.

[Tom T]

Hey guys!

Yesterday my friend and I were discussing Lead the Stampede for the green splash in Goblins.
It may serve as Ringleader 5-8.

Tom

[jin]

Hey guys!

Yesterday my friend and I were discussing Lead the Stampede for the green splash in Goblins.
It may serve as Ringleader 5-8.

Tom

Maybe 5-6... but having too many of them has obvious negative implications on your ringleaders 1-4.

[anotherday]

Matron is already Ringleaders 5-8... or whatever else you need it to be.

[pater]

Picked up the deck again and just looking for sideboard input. Currently as follows...

3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Perish

Do Chalices take priority over Mindbreak Trap?
And I'm thinking Pyrokinesis is gonna replace REB, but not sure yet?

[Nessaja]

Chalice has less weaknesses then Mindbreak Trap and Chalice works against more decktypes.

[jtwilkins]

Is there a thread or a current deck list for R/G Goblins?

[Avatara]

Matron is already Ringleaders 5-8... or whatever else you need it to be.

Is that supposed to be an argument why we shouldn't try out 1-2 Lead the Stampedes? Playing LtS doesn't lower your Matron or Ringleader count... it just adds to the explosive card advantage without polluting the goblin count to much. Good Ringleader resolves make us win, so I don't see why it's not worth testing.

[pater]

Chalice has less weaknesses then Mindbreak Trap and Chalice works against more decktypes.
I'm guessing that's because of Orim's Chant / Silence / FoW? I only ask because last time I checked, being an artifact IS a pretty big weakness.
What else does Chalice come in against other than Belcher and Storm?

[anotherday]

Is that supposed to be an argument why we shouldn't try out 1-2 Lead the Stampedes? Playing LtS doesn't lower your Matron or Ringleader count... it just adds to the explosive card advantage without polluting the goblin count to much. Good Ringleader resolves make us win, so I don't see why it's not worth testing.

Don't get me wrong. I think the card has potential, but I just don't see it making the cut. The 3drop spot is already cluttered enough. It can't be cheated into play for free/cheap via Lackey, Vial, or Warchief. In a deck as mana hungry as goblins, its a huge tempo sink. It has negative interaction with Ringleader. And on top of it all, the CA in goblins is already so good with Matron, Ringleader, Incinerator, SGC, and potentially MWM. If I'm gonna be splashing for green, or any color for that matter, its gonna be to shore up the deck's weaknesses, not to improve on what the deck already excels at. But hey, this is just my opinion. If testing proves otherwise, good ups.

[GoboLord]

I'm guessing that's because of Orim's Chant / Silence / FoW? I only ask because last time I checked, being an artifact IS a pretty big weakness.
What else does Chalice come in against other than Belcher and Storm?

This depends on the cards you have in SB. If you don't have btétter cards you can use it against:

* Canadian Thresh
* Elves Combo
* Enchantress (@1 to stop their mana-ramp and elephant grass)
* Lands (to shut down Loam)
* Burn

[jrw1985]

I'm guessing that's because of Orim's Chant / Silence / FoW? I only ask because last time I checked, being an artifact IS a pretty big weakness.
What else does Chalice come in against other than Belcher and Storm?

It's also pretty pimp against Zoo when you're on the play. Their curve is super low AND they aren't expecting it from an aggro deck.

[jin]

And on top of it all, the CA in goblins is already so good with Matron, Ringleader, Incinerator, SGC, and potentially MWM.

Agreed. Mogg War Mashal is CA ALMOST like Time Walk is CA in that he buys a turn or two for drawing naturally. Besides that, he might waste removal which is also awesome.


This depends on the cards you have in SB. If you don't have btétter cards you can use it against:

* Canadian Thresh
* Elves Combo
* Enchantress (@1 to stop their mana-ramp and elephant grass)
* Lands (to shut down Loam)
* Burn

to add to that,.. sick against Dreadstill as Dreadstill lists often don't pack Ee due to low number of colours. Although UBw lists had been popping up and I've never really played against it. In testing, it was really good against traditional Dreadstill lists though.

[pater]

I just took out Instigators and replaced them with 2 Mogg Fanatic and 2 War Marshals.

Are Fanatics outdated? Does anyone have an instance where Mogg Fanatic saved their ass (recently, not 5+ years ago)?

I only see him as a means to remove Bridge from Below, but maybe he can help with removal? Untapping Sharpshooter? Or should he just become more War Marshals or turn back into Instigators?

[jrw1985]

I just took out Instigators and replaced them with 2 Mogg Fanatic and 2 War Marshals.

Are Fanatics outdated? Does anyone have an instance where Mogg Fanatic saved their ass (recently, not 5+ years ago)?

I only see him as a means to remove Bridge from Below, but maybe he can help with removal? Untapping Sharpshooter? Or should he just become more War Marshals or turn back into Instigators?

MWM or Instigator is better than Fanatic. Think about the format. Are there any 1 toughness creatures to really be scared of right now?

Lackey, Lavamancer, Confidant... That's about it.

[jrw1985]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3692.html
I was reading this article today and thinking about Goblins in terms of the match-ups within which Goblins is the beatdown deck. I did some quick brainstorming and this is what I’ve initially concluded-

Match-ups where our opponent is the Beatdown-
Zoo
Elf Combo
Dredge
Painter’s Servant
Affinity
Springtide
Belcher
ANT

Match-ups where Goblins is the Beatdown-
Merfolk
CounterTop
GWB Junk
NO Bant
Team America
Canadian Thresh
Green and Taxes
Lands
Stax
Enchantress
New Horizons

If you haven’t read the article the term “the beatdown” basically means the deck that will try to win through aggression. The other deck takes the control role and tries to win via that avenue. This certainly does not mean that all decks are either Aggro or Control, just that all MU have one deck that will be optimal when played aggressively and the other that will be better played defensively.

I thought this was an interesting concept to apply to Goblins since it is a deck that seems so aggro at face value but actually needs to play control against most of the decks in the field. Against decks like Zoo and Affinity Goblins needs to set up a defensive board state while controlling the other deck’s creatures. Against Painter and Elf combos we need to keep them from getting the creatures in play they need to go off. We are the control player because all they need to do is play a few creatures then combo out on us T3. It’s a similar situation with Tide and Storm combo decks. They try to win by killing us before we have a chance to kill them, and it is up to us to stop them from playing a critical number of spells a turn. And Dredge is Dredge. If you can’t stop them from discarding or attack their graveyard then you’ll probably find yourself on the losing end of a Zombie blowout.

Goblins actually gets to be the beatdown pretty much any time the opposing deck has blue AND creatures. Clearly it will be on the offensive against straight up control decks, but it also plays the beatdown role against midrange agro-control decks. Sure, Goblins still uses control elements in these matches, but it’s usually in the form of mana-denial as we develop our board with Lackeys and Vials.

When I looked at the list I generated and applied it to my sideboard I realized that Pyrokinesis is probably the best SB card out there. It can be used against any deck that’s creature based and it can disrupt Painter and Elf combos. I still think Chalice is the best all-around anti-storm card. A problem I now see is graveyard hate. There aren’t enough recursion decks out there right now to warrant the use of 4 graveyard hate slots, but I still feel that it is necessary. Dredge becomes unwinnable wayyy too quickly if you have no answers for their graveyard (which is weird because Dredge doesn’t seem to be around much these days). What sucks about planning for Dredge is that Leyline of the Void is clearly the best card against it, except that Leyline is just plain awful against everything else.

[GoboLord]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3692.html
I was reading this article today and thinking about Goblins in terms of the match-ups within which Goblins is the beatdown deck. I did some quick brainstorming and this is what I’ve initially concluded-

Match-ups where our opponent is the Beatdown-
Zoo
Elf Combo
Dredge
Painter’s Servant
Affinity
Springtide
Belcher
ANT

Match-ups where Goblins is the Beatdown-
Merfolk
CounterTop
GWB Junk
NO Bant
Team America
Canadian Thresh
Green and Taxes
Lands
Stax
Enchantress
New Horizons

If you haven’t read the article the term “the beatdown” basically means the deck that will try to win through aggression. The other deck takes the control role and tries to win via that avenue. This certainly does not mean that all decks are either Aggro or Control, just that all MU have one deck that will be optimal when played aggressively and the other that will be better played defensively.

I thought this was an interesting concept to apply to Goblins since it is a deck that seems so aggro at face value but actually needs to play control against most of the decks in the field. Against decks like Zoo and Affinity Goblins needs to set up a defensive board state while controlling the other deck’s creatures. Against Painter and Elf combos we need to keep them from getting the creatures in play they need to go off. We are the control player because all they need to do is play a few creatures then combo out on us T3. It’s a similar situation with Tide and Storm combo decks. They try to win by killing us before we have a chance to kill them, and it is up to us to stop them from playing a critical number of spells a turn. And Dredge is Dredge. If you can’t stop them from discarding or attack their graveyard then you’ll probably find yourself on the losing end of a Zombie blowout.

Goblins actually gets to be the beatdown pretty much any time the opposing deck has blue AND creatures. Clearly it will be on the offensive against straight up control decks, but it also plays the beatdown role against midrange agro-control decks. Sure, Goblins still uses control elements in these matches, but it’s usually in the form of mana-denial as we develop our board with Lackeys and Vials.

When I looked at the list I generated and applied it to my sideboard I realized that Pyrokinesis is probably the best SB card out there. It can be used against any deck that’s creature based and it can disrupt Painter and Elf combos. I still think Chalice is the best all-around anti-storm card. A problem I now see is graveyard hate. There aren’t enough recursion decks out there right now to warrant the use of 4 graveyard hate slots, but I still feel that it is necessary. Dredge becomes unwinnable wayyy too quickly if you have no answers for their graveyard (which is weird because Dredge doesn’t seem to be around much these days). What sucks about planning for Dredge is that Leyline of the Void is clearly the best card against it, except that Leyline is just plain awful against everything else.

Interesting thought. Regarding graveyard-hate: Leyline is also the best answer we have on Lands aand New Horizons (although NH can be shattered by Perish alone). I agree with you that gravehate should be lowerd to 3 slots - that again makes Leyline nearly unplayable (since it is best as 4-of). If you want to have a solid Dredge MU and run only 3 GYH slots you should probably rely on echo-triggers of Stingscourger and MWM as well as on SKirk Prospector and Warren Weirding, all of which blast Bridge from Below. Plus, Those cards are excellent in stalling their tokens.
Following this logic, what do you think of this list?

//Lands [22]
7 Wasteland/Port
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold

//Core [26]
...

//Others [7 + 5]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

1 Skirk Prospector
4 Mogg War Marshal

//Sideboard [15]
2 Tomod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Earwig Squad
3 Pyrokinesis

[Humphrey]

Match-ups where our opponent is the Beatdown-
Zoo
Elf Combo
Dredge
Painter’s Servant
Affinity
Springtide
Belcher
ANT

Match-ups where Goblins is the Beatdown-
Merfolk
CounterTop
GWB Junk
NO Bant
Team America
Canadian Thresh
Green and Taxes
Lands
Stax
Enchantress
New Horizons
.

I dont think that i can totally agree with this list.
Against Affinity and Merfolk it totally depends on the draws. If Affinity doesnt have a real quick start with many creatures oder Thopter+Equip Goblins is the Beatdown. And against Merfolk id say we´re more often in a control position, burning Fishs down with Incinerators and win via Ringleaders card draw.
Also i dont see where goblins isnt beatdown agains ANT or Tide, exept a few sb cards we have no way to interact with ANT.

[jin]

I just took out Instigators and replaced them with 2 Mogg Fanatic and 2 War Marshals.

Are Fanatics outdated? Does anyone have an instance where Mogg Fanatic saved their ass (recently, not 5+ years ago)?

I only see him as a means to remove Bridge from Below, but maybe he can help with removal? Untapping Sharpshooter? Or should he just become more War Marshals or turn back into Instigators?

Mogg Fanatic allows you to curve out better so you don't have to mulligan so much. That's all I got. Seems logical.




//Sideboard [15]
2 Tomod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Earwig Squad
3 Pyrokinesis

I went with 2 relic, 1 crypt after vengevine disappeared. I think it's safer to go wtih more relics because relic is a constant threat when it's on the board while crypt is kind of a one shot deal.

[warai]

I see many decks not playing Rishadan port. How advantageous is using it in Goblins vs not using it?

[Humphrey]

Id say play at least 2, in monoR up to 4 are recommended.
I wouldnt say goblins suck without them but its like a plan C in some situations. For example you are not drawing any buisness and can stall the opponent so he is unable to build board position. And it helps preventing nasty spells like firespout or plague

[Vandalize]

Hmm, just got back from a magic store where I saw a really nice card for my sideboard: Back to Nature.

Instant 1G: Destroy all enchantments.

Well, I think it might be a very nice choice against Enchantress, which is a fairly common matchup for me. I've been running this decklist lately, with some positive results.

Lands [22]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
6 Mountain

Core [26]

...

Flexible Slots [12]

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard [15]

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Back to Nature
1 Tormod's Crypt

I don't know if I should keep the 3/1 KGrip/BtN split, or if I should go 2/2. Lightning Bolts were removed from MD because Goblin Chieftain has been proven to be a very strong card in lategame. I don't play any artifact hate MD because I think it's just not worth it... topdecking a Tin Street Hooligan, or even a Goblin Tinkerer in matches where you don't really need it is just awful. Too bad, those cards are pretty much good against a lot of matchups.

[Hashinator89]

Hmm, just got back from a magic store where I saw a really nice card for my sideboard: Back to Nature.

Instant 1G: Destroy all enchantments.

Well, I think it might be a very nice choice against Enchantress, which is a fairly common matchup for me. I've been running this decklist lately, with some positive results.

Lands [22]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
6 Mountain

Core [26]

...

Flexible Slots [12]

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard [15]

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Back to Nature
1 Tormod's Crypt

I don't know if I should keep the 3/1 KGrip/BtN split, or if I should go 2/2. Lightning Bolts were removed from MD because Goblin Chieftain has been proven to be a very strong card in lategame. I don't play any artifact hate MD because I think it's just not worth it... topdecking a Tin Street Hooligan, or even a Goblin Tinkerer in matches where you don't really need it is just awful. Too bad, those cards are pretty much good against a lot of matchups.

Back to Nature is pretty sweet. It is as good against against Enchantress as you think it is, and it's great against double Engineered Plague. I've found that I like playing 2, if you feel like you can justify cutting a Krosan Grip (I usually play 0 artifact removal right now).

Also, how do you like Sharpshooter + Prospector? I've personally not found a reason to even test it yet.

[GoboLord]

Hmm, just got back from a magic store where I saw a really nice card for my sideboard: Back to Nature.

Instant 1G: Destroy all enchantments.

Well, I think it might be a very nice choice against Enchantress, which is a fairly common matchup for me. I've been running this decklist lately, with some positive results.

Lands [22]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
6 Mountain

Core [26]

...

Flexible Slots [12]

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard [15]

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Back to Nature
1 Tormod's Crypt

I don't know if I should keep the 3/1 KGrip/BtN split, or if I should go 2/2. Lightning Bolts were removed from MD because Goblin Chieftain has been proven to be a very strong card in lategame. I don't play any artifact hate MD because I think it's just not worth it... topdecking a Tin Street Hooligan, or even a Goblin Tinkerer in matches where you don't really need it is just awful. Too bad, those cards are pretty much good against a lot of matchups.

If you are Rg you should run TSH in MD.
I don't want to make a list of occassions where he is good and what he can kill - we already know that. The fact is that most decks DO run some artifacts; and they do so for a certain reason. The reason is that those artifact help them out once in a while mostly relying on the fact that very few decks can handle them preboard.
As a 1-of you almost never draw him; so if you have to deal with artifacts you have to use your Matron (and in those cases he is worth searching for). At his worst he is only a Goblin-shaped Savannah Lion.
In fact there are MU where al your removal is completely useless (Enchantress, Deedstill, Stax, Belcher, ANT, Spring Tide) and I bet you certainly use your Gempalm Incinerator as a Savannah Lion once in a while ;-)
You may also think of using Artfifact-removal in an agressive way: We don't only need TSH when there is a Jitte lying around, but also when Merfolk's AEther Vial is getting on our nerves (in this particular case Merfolk heavily relies on Vial, cause they have no better 1-drop and they won't overwhelm anybody by plaiyng 1 creature every round).
WE ARE THE AGGRESSIVE DECK AND WE NEED TO COMPLETELY CRUSH OUR OPPONENTS AND ALL THEY HAVE! (sorry for that, just playing my role ;-))

Regarding the Grip/Nature Split: This depends on wether or not you pack TSH in MD. Generally artifacts are more problematic (and more frequent) than Enchantments, therefore I'd run a 3/1-split.

btw. I find your deck very well-build

[jrw1985]

I dont think that i can totally agree with this list.
Against Affinity and Merfolk it totally depends on the draws. If Affinity doesnt have a real quick start with many creatures oder Thopter+Equip Goblins is the Beatdown. And against Merfolk id say we´re more often in a control position, burning Fishs down with Incinerators and win via Ringleaders card draw.
Also i dont see where goblins isnt beatdown agains ANT or Tide, exept a few sb cards we have no way to interact with ANT.

First off, I recognize that each game plays differently. There's clearly little reason to play control against a deck that mulls to 4 and misses its 1-drop. I wrote up my list with sideboarding in mind. I'm using the list as a tool to help conceptualize how I should sideboard against various match ups, not necessarily how the game is actually going to turn out.

Secondly, in modern Legacy there is seldom a deck that relies purely on aggro and NO deck that relies purely on control. This is because every Legacy deck has elements of control, permission, removal, or disruption. It's a necessary part of the game. Decks also require a win condition, so every deck has the option of being the beatdown compared to what it's up against.

Vs Affinity- Affinity is just so much faster T1 that goblins doesn't have a choice but to play control. I feel like every game against Affinity consists of playing catch-up after they dump their hand T1. Then it's up to us to stabalize the board with removal before we can start swinging in for the win. I think Goblins has to play the control role against Affinity because there isn't really anything in our sideboard that makes us more aggro against them. Our only options are removal (Pyro, Tinkerer, Scrapper et al.).

Vs Merfolk- I agree that we use control elements against them in the form of spot removal, but think of all the things we throw at them that they NEED to have an answer for: Lackey, Piledriver, Vial, Ringleader, Pyro. All of these cards can blow out Merfolk. We have the threats. They need the answers. There's a reason so many Merfolk splash black for E Plague- Goblins is the beatdown. This I'm sure of.

Vs ANT/Tide- These matchups are trickier to define, certainly. We do have very few ways of interacting with those decks, so how could we possibly be control? Well, we regularly kill T4. They regularly kill T3 (at least Ari Lax's ANT list does - http://www.mananation.com/legacy-storm-primer/). So we can't beat them if we play the beatdown role. Also, how would we even sideboard to make our deck more aggro G2? Fireblasts against Ad nauseum is really all I can think of, and that doesn't really work against other combo decks like Tide or Belcher that don't burn themselves. Since they kill us faster then we can kill them (even post-sideboard) the only option we are left with is to play control.


This little exercise is really opening my eyes to how control-oriented sideboarding is. Where Zoo has Price of Progress and Fireblast to burn out their opponents more quickly just about every other deck's sideboard is based around making the deck more defensive.

[ramanujan]

"just about every other deck's sideboard is based around making the deck more defensive"

I think that this perception is one worth writing home about. This is a fundamental point about sideboards that I have never seen stated so well. Sometimes just a good sentence does it for me. Thanks.

[Vandalize]

Hi, remade my decklist with a few changes for adapting to some random stuff that happened to me yesterday.

First of all, replaced the 4th Wooded Foothills for a Bloodstained Mire, because I just got Extirpated when I needed my Taiga the most. Followed GoboLord's advice and add the singleton Tin Street Hooligan instead of Stingscourger, which got his spot in the sideboard.

So, the decklist looks like this now:

Lands [22]

6 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloostained Mire

Core [26]

...

Flexible Slots [12]

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Sideboard [15]

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Back to Nature
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stingscourger

Sometimes I feel like I shouldn't leave home without 4 Pyrokinesis in my sideboard... Although, I find less than 3 GY-hate slots in the sideboard a weak choice for a 16+ people tournament (which is the weakest slots in my sideboard IMO).

Any comments?

[GoboLord]

Hi, remade my decklist with a few changes for adapting to some random stuff that happened to me yesterday.

First of all, replaced the 4th Wooded Foothills for a Bloodstained Mire, because I just got Extirpated when I needed my Taiga the most. Followed GoboLord's advice and add the singleton Tin Street Hooligan instead of Stingscourger, which got his spot in the sideboard.

So, the decklist looks like this now:

Lands [22]

6 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloostained Mire

Core [26]

...

Flexible Slots [12]

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Sideboard [15]

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Back to Nature
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stingscourger

Sometimes I feel like I shouldn't leave home without 4 Pyrokinesis in my sideboard... Although, I find less than 3 GY-hate slots in the sideboard a weak choice for a 16+ people tournament (which is the weakest slots in my sideboard IMO).

Any comments?

If you want to make sure you don't get extirüated you can even run 1 Arid Mesa, 1 Scalding Tarn, 1 Wooded Foothills and 1 Bloodstained Mire.
If you have a Stingscourger in board you don't necessarily need the 4th Pyrokinesis since you can add 4 removal to your deck postboard either way; I like the 3-1 split.

[Alphalaw]

@Vandalize: I think your deck build looks great and I have to agree with Gobolord that you'd probably be fine with the 3-1 split. I actually someone like it since it gives you a little more diversity in your removal effects. As for the fetch lands, it really couldn't hurt to split them up into different fetchs with red as a target. In my build I use Scalding Tarn, Arid Mesa, and Bloodstained Mire.

@jrw1985: Gooood idea, sorrrry bout that.
Edit to delete the evidence of my inability to read properly.

[jrw1985]

Hello everyone,
I've been stalking these forums for some time and decided it high time I finally attempt to contribute to the forums. I was thinking about the new card Green Sun's Zenith that's coming out in the new set and I thought it might have some potential in a goblin build if it's used properly. It gives you the ability to fetch any goblin from your deck (so long as you have the mana) and put it directly into play, which allows for good synergy with cards like ringleader, matron, SGC, and other goblins with come into play effects. It also helps with replenishing your board position and hand, for example you could fetch a matron, which could be used to gather a ringleader to your hand. This could give you the ability to spring back from board wipes. This could would probably work the best with a goblin deck containing prospector, which could be used as a means of supplying extra mana needed for the x cost.
The card has some pretty obvious downsides though, for instance it isn't a goblin card which means it can't be drawn via ringleader or fetched with matron. It also isn't very synergetic with the goblin theme of cheating goblins into play via lackey, warcheif or vial. Then you also have to have the mana +1 for casting the creature, which could prove to be difficult for cards like ringleader (which would be one of it's better targets). That being said I feel like it might still have some sort of potential and I was wondering what the good goblin players of the source think about this new card. I am hoping to do some play testing as the weekend rolls around but it can be difficult to find the time with the school and all.

Also @Vandalize: I think you deck build looks great and I have to agree with Gobolord that you'd probably be fine with the 3-1 split. I actually someone like it since it gives you a little more diversity in your removal effects. As for the fetch lands, it really couldn't hurt to split them up into different fetchs with red as a target. In my build I use Scalding Tarn, Arid Mesa, and Bloodstained Mire.

Read Green Sun's Zenith once more...

[Vandalize]

Read Green Sun's Zenith once more...

HAHAHA. Alphalaw was just misunderstood. Goblins are green in theory, but in MTG, they are pretty much red.

[anotherday]

Read Green Sun's Zenith once more...

But aren't they "little green men?" Lol. As stated before, the new set gave goblins nothing.

[ScatmanX]

But aren't they "little green men?" Lol. As stated before, the new set gave goblins nothing.
I really wish someone would test Pyrexian Revoker (pithing needle guy).
He seems nice against combo, since unlike Chalice / Thor / Trap, he can't be Duressed away.
Geting him in T2 naming LED must be preety nice.
Also, could be useful in other MU's I guess...

[Vandalize]

Phyrexian Revoker can be cheated into play too. But we usually need turn 1 answers for Combo stuff. You usually don't have a turn 2 when facing a Belcher or Spanish Inquisition. Still, it's a pretty fine card.

[ScatmanX]

Phyrexian Revoker can be cheated into play too. But we usually need turn 1 answers for Combo stuff. You usually don't have a turn 2 when facing a Belcher or Spanish Inquisition. Still, it's a pretty fine card.
Against Belcher I really try hard to concentrate and make them fizzle, or cast EtW for 8 or 10 tokens, and get outraced by MWM, Knesis or Sharpshooter. Still, Revoker looks decent. Needle would be better, but I think Revoker is better in many other MU's.
Agains't SI... well, not much we can do here.
Trap is the best card against both, but I think Revoker may have a lot more versatility.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Guys since we are in discussion here with new stuff to improve our little green warriors has anyone tried goblin snowman?, kidding aside I find him usefull as an ultimate blocker but with the meta today with zoo/burn/rock etc . . he will be killed upon casting but what do you guys think? Putting shroud I think he is invincible . . . Dont flame me guys just thinking out of the box with putting a new guy in our decks.

[JonBarber]

Guys since we are in discussion here with new stuff to improve our little green warriors has anyone tried goblin snowman?, kidding aside I find him usefull as an ultimate blocker but with the meta today with zoo/burn/rock etc . . he will be killed upon casting but what do you guys think? Putting shroud I think he is invincible . . . Dont flame me guys just thinking out of the box with putting a new guy in our decks.

Hmm... You could be playing ringleader or this guy for 4 mana. I'm gonna choose the one that doesn't lose you the game. Mogg war marshall is 100x better, because snowman will just bite a bolt/chain/stp/path/helix/or a million other spells.

[Micki]

Hello there!

After playing mono red goblins for a while I'm now trying to put together a Rb or possibly a Rbg list and it would be great to get some comments and advice from you all. Here is the list I'm testing right now.

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
3 Auntie's Hovl
6 Mountain

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Skirk Prospector

Sideboard

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

First, yes it's a 61 cards list at the moment :) The card I'm constantly adding or removing is Wort, Boggart Auntie, I like the fact that it let's me "reuse" Warren Weirding, Stingscourger and Mogg War Marshal and that it has some synergy with Skirk Prospector but if these reasons are enough or just overkill... well please let me know your thoughts?
The thing I mainly want to get opinions about is whether adding green is worthwhile or not?
If I add green I would probably go;

-1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
+1 Tin Street Hooligan

-2 Earwig Squad
-1 Tuktuk Scrapper
+3 Nature's Claim

And of course change my lands to support three colors. Please let me know what you think about the list as it is and your opinion about RB vs. RBG. All advice, criticism and opinions are very appreciated!!
Finally, I'm also very interested in getting opinions on Phyrexian Revoker

[Vandalize]

Rishadan Port's counting is too low, I wouldn't go below 3. As jin likes to say: Go big or go home. Another advice: Nature's Claim isn't really a good card after Survival was banned. It's manacost is awsome, but giving 4 life to your foe might cost you the game. I'd recommend some Krosan Grips or Naturalize (or Back to Nature, if you're concerned about enchantments).

[Lorenzo767]

Hi guys!
This is my actually build

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Badlands
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

My doubt are:
MWM: i think it's great but i don't know what to remove form MD to play it...i think the only solution could be -1Wort -1 Chieftain -1 WW but i don't like this solution too much...the only of these three card that i could easely remove is the third WW...
Gempalm: 3 or 4?
For the MD this si enough..i'm happy of the other choice i made
About the SB my doubt is if i have to play or not Pyrokinesis, and if yes wat can i leave? :/ Is it better than Perish?
Is bettere to play 1 TSH in side and 1 Stinscourger in MD or vice-versa?

Thank You Guys!

[Morton_Salt]

Hey all,

I run a pretty generic vial goblins build and I'm having trouble vs elves. My friend runs llanowar with elvish archdruids and then the massive creatures start coming out. Granted I do think that he built his deck strictly to counter goblins but its still annoying to constantly fight 3/3s and above with my 1/1s. Would you recommend running lords in the deck to help with the trades? He also runs token generators like Wolf-Skull Shaman, Wren's Run Packmaster, etc which just makes it harder to get any tempo.

[GoboLord]

@ Lorenzo:
As I explained on the last page I'm a fan of TSH in MD , so you can put Stinger in SB.
In a 3c-build with such a vulerable manabase, I'd suggest to avoid RR and RB manacosts...therfore you should better play MWM and kick wort, chieftain + X


Hey all,

I run a pretty generic vial goblins build and I'm having trouble vs elves. My friend runs llanowar with elvish archdruids and then the massive creatures start coming out. Granted I do think that he built his deck strictly to counter goblins but its still annoying to constantly fight 3/3s and above with my 1/1s. Would you recommend running lords in the deck to help with the trades? He also runs token generators like Wolf-Skull Shaman, Wren's Run Packmaster, etc which just makes it harder to get any tempo.

Perish in board saves the day ;-) they don't stand a chance against 8:1-trades. Plus MWM in MD help you out with stalling them long enough.

[Lorenzo767]

@ Lorenzo:
As I explained on the last page I'm a fan of TSH in MD , so you can put Stinger in SB.
In a 3c-build with such a vulerable manabase, I'd suggest to avoid RR and RB manacosts...therfore you should better play MWM and kick wort, chieftain + X



Perish in board saves the day ;-) they don't stand a chance against 8:1-trades. Plus MWM in MD help you out with stalling them long enough.
UHm i can do -1 Wort ( :cry: ) -1 Chieftain -1 WW or maybe is better to remove 2 Chieftain?
I will try TSH in MD. What you think about the number of Gempalm? 3 or 4?

[GoboLord]

UHm i can do -1 Wort ( :cry: ) -1 Chieftain -1 WW or maybe is better to remove 2 Chieftain?
I will try TSH in MD. What you think about the number of Gempalm? 3 or 4?

Well, I'm always in favor of more removal ( I even ran 8 for a while!) In the case of your list you should probably add warren weirding to have MD answers on huge creatures lik KotR/Emrakul/Progenitus/Dreadnough etc. This also depends on your metagame: if you don't expect those heavy-weight monsters you should do fine with 4 gempalm

[Tacosnape]

Hey all,

I run a pretty generic vial goblins build and I'm having trouble vs elves. My friend runs llanowar with elvish archdruids and then the massive creatures start coming out. Granted I do think that he built his deck strictly to counter goblins but its still annoying to constantly fight 3/3s and above with my 1/1s. Would you recommend running lords in the deck to help with the trades? He also runs token generators like Wolf-Skull Shaman, Wren's Run Packmaster, etc which just makes it harder to get any tempo.

Elves has come a long way in a short time in Legacy and is actually worth addressing. It used to be such a freebie for Goblins. Now it's an actual fight. And it's never the same fight depending on what Elf build you have to deal with.

Pyrokinesis in your sideboard is by far your best weapon, as it's quite capable of easily taking down three elves for 0 mana, netting you both a card and tempo boost. If you anticipate Elves, don't leave home without four. If you splash black, Perish is also similarly sexy.

Against really crazy fast bullshit Elves, you might also consider Mindbreak Trap, but against more random bullshit or Natural Order-y builds, it's not worth it.

When you don't get a Pyro, If they aren't running combo elves and are just running more random bullshit, then you've got to take out the problem elves. Goblin Sharpshooter can singlehandedly take down a lot of the bullshit if you can keep him from amassing multiple Lords through Gempalm Incinerator and whatever other removal you have (Scourger, Weirding, Whatever.)

You also need to be aware of Natural Order into Progenitus. There's not a ton you can do about this if you're not running black for Perish, other than to create a favorable game state before it happens and try to outrace it with Piledrivers by picking off the support blockers.

[Justin]

Funny you should mention elves. I just lost against an elf deck on MWS. Pyrokinesis and Perish are the important sideboard cards. Incinerator is great in the main, but Warren Weirding is pretty weak. Sharpshooter is, of course, good in this matchup. However, it's not as awesome as it once was because of the printing of so many more elf lords. A Sharpshooter/Skirk Prospector combo will give you a better chance to clear their board.

You need to remove their early creatures. Kill their one-drop elves, such as Llanowars and Fyndhorns ASAP. You might be able to mana screw them if you can disrupt their early mana producers. Another things to do is to attack with Lackey into a 1/1 elf, even if you don't have creature removal. Against most decks, it is correct to hold your Lackey back if they have a blocker that you cannot deal with yet. Against elves, it will often be correct to attack with Lackey, force them to block with a 1/1 and make a trade. You don't want them to get their mana ramp going.

[bakofried]

Not when the entire deck is mana, you don't want that. All of your trades and removal will be tempo trades for them, and you're, and I quote, "pissing on the sun" when you try to slow their mana dorks. Unless you're clearing the way for a Lackey. You're the beatdown in this MU; they have Sylvan Messenger, Wolf-Skull Shaman, Elvish Visionary, and Imperious Perfect for CA and stemming the tide. On top of that, the modern ones us NO as a finisher. They have the stronger late-game plan than us - kill them quickly.

[Justin]

You say that the entire deck is mana, but then you mention five cards (20 slots in the deck) that don't produce mana. If you can kill their mana elves and keep them off four mana, they could end up with a hand full of expensive casting cost spells that they cannot cast because they are mana screwed. Elf decks don't run many lands. I've played elf decks and I know their weaknesses. Against most elf variants, you are not the beatdown. They can go off a lot faster than goblins. You are half-right. Elves have the advantage in both the early game and late game. Goblins have the advantage in the midgame. You want to disrupt them early and then put them away with your goblin horde before they can recover.

[Neuad]

Went 5-4 at Legacy Open in Indi, nothing worth writing home about. Pretty happy with my list, just need to play better!

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [ON] Mountain (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Swamp (3)

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding
SB: 3 [US] Meltdown


Patriarch's Bidding. . .wins. . . Got Tsabo's Decreed at the end up my draw, discarding 7 goblins. Top decked a Bidding, resolved. . with 17 cards left in my library. Swung for like 1000 damage. Won. vs Deedstill for what its worth.

Meltdown was for Affinity, though I only played against it once, and game 2/3 my opponent mull'd into EPlague both games and kept complete shit, and lost.

Played Zoo once, so Bidding and Perish did not pull their weight. . . .my opponent didnt activate Lavamancer because I had an untapped waste. . and if he tapped a land, in response I would waste it and he wouldn't get the mana. . .I couldn't make this shit up.

Played the mirror once, and stomped him with turn 3 Chieftan, turn 4 sharpshooter game 1, and a Pyrokinesis game 2.

Never sided in GY hate, dont know if its even worth the slot.

Tinkerer is coming out and becoming something else. . .I'm thinking of messing around with a small white splash and trying Mirror Entity. . maybe a nifty white card in the board also.

Overall, legacy opens are pretty lol. 270ish there I think? And it's like playing MWS in real life. Fun times. Had. . .3 friends top 32, and 2 top 16. . one missing top8 on breakers.

[lebarion]

You want to disrupt them early and then put them away with your goblin horde before they can recover.

As a former Survival Elves player, I must reinforce this. Use Pyrokinesis to take 2 or 3 mana dorks (specially if they are Priest of Titania or Elvish Archdruid, but Llanowar and Fyndhorn Elves are also fine), even if it is a 2-for-2 trade.

Also, Warren Instigator is wonderful in this match. They cannot let it connect, it kills every mana elf and usually survives to tell the story, and even trades with a lord, what is a very bad trade for the elves player. Consider using 2 of them if if you anticipate elves.

[Vandalize]

@Neuad: Your list is just an auto-loss against Combo? How's that MU for you?

Resuming the Elves matchup. This is another one where Chalice of the Void is great (especially against Elfball). Chalice@1 stops all mana dudes (except Priest) and other trouble cards like Nettle Sentinel and Worldly Tutor. Sharpshooter and Pyrokinesis can deal with the rest of them.

[Neuad]

Against non Belcher combo, I feel our best defense is to just run them over with an amazing hand.

[JonBarber]

Against non Belcher combo, I feel our best defense is to just run them over with an amazing hand.

Good luck with that. I prefer to plan for something other than the nuts.

[Neuad]

There were other things I was more worried about at Indie then combo, with all the CB running around it wasnt big at all.

[Di]

New Vial Goblins thread up. Continue the discussion there.