[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Cait_Sith]

R/B Anti-Enchantment options are small, that is sure, but between Mad Auntie and Wort, Boggart Auntie, the only thing you need fear is most (which could be a serious problem).

I am not sure how you could reliably bypass that, actually. SB Tombstalker could work, or possibly some SB flying Goblins. Wort can keep brining them back and Mad makes them pretty big, so winning isn't a problem. You could also SB SGC and bring it in against decks that run these powerful anti-attack measures.

[DURESSyou92]

Here is my list I'm thinking about after Lorwyn comes out


Creatures:
4X Goblin Piledriver
4X Goblin Lackey
4X Goblin Matron
4X Goblin Warchief
4X Mad Auntie
3X Gempalm Incinerator
3X Boggart Mob
2X Mogg Fanatic
2X Siege-Gang Commander
2X Goblin Ringleader
1X Wort, Boggart Auntie
1X Goblin Tinkerer


Lands:
4X Wasteland
4X Badlands
4X Bloodstained Mire
3X Swamp
4X Mountain

Other:
4X Thoughtseize
4X Aether Vial

The side board it be something like this:

4X Pyrokenisis
4X Chalice
4X Leyline of the Void/Extirpate???
1X Tinkerer???
2X ????

Should Knucklebone witch be in there?

[Tacosnape]

I think a lot of you are overdoing this black splash.

Auntie and Wort are pretty good, but probably aren't going to make the deck with Thoughtseize coming in. My build looks like this, pretty straightforward. A second Siege-Gang is an option, too.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander

[DURESSyou92]

so you're splashing black just for thoughtsieze?

[Tacosnape]

so you're splashing black just for thoughtsieze?

Not entirely. Sideboard allows me Some combination of Duress/Therapy, as well as Planar Void.

I don't think I'll run a black removal spell due to Pyrokinesis being generally awesome and Thoughtseize hitting Tarmogoyfs on occasion (And Planar Void making them small!), but if I did it'd be Smother.

[Nihil Credo]

Uhm... Thoughtseize is clearly better than Duress, but in Goblins is it better than Therapy?

[georgjorge]

Crib Swap 2W
tribal instant shapeshifter

Changeling
remove target creature from the game. Its controller puts a 1/1 colorless shapehifter creature with changeling into play.


So...now you get some tutorable and Ringleader-able Goyf removal...wow, Goblins REALLY looks good after Lorwyn.

[Cait_Sith]

I think a lot of you are overdoing this black splash.


If they provide the resources, we should use them. Honestly I think you are underestimating the Black Splash. It provides options against every combo deck, between Therapy, Thoughtseize, and Void, as well as repeating card advantage, Wort, Boggart Auntie, and probably the best global pump Goblin to date, Mad Auntie (incidentally she can also help to hold your Goblin line through her regen ability).

Siege-Gang's time for MD slots has come and past. The deck needs to rely more heavily on disruption than speed and almost no one is currently running the type of defenses Siege-Gang is needed to bypass anyway. The simple fact he taxes your Vials and mana base to the limit is no longer worth what he gives in return.

[dlevsApiJ]

Crib Swap 2W
tribal instant shapeshifter

Changeling
remove target creature from the game. Its controller puts a 1/1 colorless shapehifter creature with changeling into play.


So...now you get some tutorable and Ringleader-able Goyf removal...wow, Goblins REALLY looks good after Lorwyn.


Wow,, yes, that card looks Really good, only problem it cost 3 mana, but can be Matronned-Ringleadered... And the token being created let your Gempalm do more damage....

[georgjorge]

Mirror Entity casting cost 2W
Creature Shapeshifter

Changeling
X: creatures you control become X/X and gain all creature types until end of turn.
1/1

Now this seems to cost just one mana too much to be playable, but at least it's worth mentioning, as it is some Overrun-like effect (tutorable, Ringleader-able, etc etc), and there are already some nice cards in white (Pyroclasm protection, pseudo-Swords).


Woodland Changeling 1G
Creature - Shapeshifter Common
Changeling (This card is every creature type even if this card isn't in play.)
2/2

...but this Shapeshifter, on the other hand, while unspectacular, might be played in Rg, because I think the two-cc-slot is very hard to fill, and a 2/2 Goblin for two might come in handy for the curve.

[Tacosnape]

If they provide the resources, we should use them. Honestly I think you are underestimating the Black Splash. It provides options against every combo deck, between Therapy, Thoughtseize, and Void, as well as repeating card advantage, Wort, Boggart Auntie, and probably the best global pump Goblin to date, Mad Auntie (incidentally she can also help to hold your Goblin line through her regen ability).

Siege-Gang's time for MD slots has come and past. The deck needs to rely more heavily on disruption than speed and almost no one is currently running the type of defenses Siege-Gang is needed to bypass anyway. The simple fact he taxes your Vials and mana base to the limit is no longer worth what he gives in return.

Responses fail me.

First of all, if you read -anything- I said, I don't underestimate the black splash at all. I intend to -run- the black splash. You don't have to sell Thoughtseize, Therapy, or Void to me. (And yes, Thoughtseize is the better maindeck Choice over Therapy by a mile.)

However, just because black goblins exists doesn't mean we should run them. We should only run them if they're better than the current goblins, and I don't believe they are short of maybe Wort, Boggart Auntie.

Siege-Gang Commander is a core necessity as it's the only thing in the deck that provides reach and bails your ass out of situations you couldn't touch otherwise. You might can cut down to one with a Wort, but that's about it. That reach can be 8-10 straight to the dome in a stalled midgame, and dropping it off a Lackey in a damage race is huge.

And why is Mad Auntie suddenly all that and a bag of chips? Goblin King wasn't good enough for its pump effects or being an answer to Plague, and I refuse to believe that dropping a colored mana symbol and adding a negligible regeneration effect suddenly makes it warrant multiple slots. The Auntie's good, but you don't have a lot of slots to play with if you're maindecking Vial and Thoughtseize in groups of four. Assuming 23 land, that's 31 of your slots right there. Lackey, Fanatic, Piledriver, Matron, Warchief, Incinerator, and Ringleader is another 27 at the minimum, which leaves you full up on slots after 1 Siege-Gang and 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie. So where does Mad Auntie fit in, exactly? Hardly anywhere.


Mirror Entity casting cost 2W
Creature Shapeshifter

Changeling
X: creatures you control become X/X and gain all creature types until end of turn.
1/1

Woodland Changeling 1G
Creature - Shapeshifter Common
Changeling (This card is every creature type even if this card isn't in play.)
2/2

...but this Shapeshifter, on the other hand, while unspectacular, might be played in Rg, because I think the two-cc-slot is very hard to fill, and a 2/2 Goblin for two might come in handy for the curve.

Mirror Entity is a very interesting 1-of, but white in Goblins seems to be a reach compared to red or green.

Woodland Changeling is crap. Tin-Street Hooligan would be a much stronger option, and R/G builds can't even find room for 4 Tin-Streets. The 1 toughness isn't worth losing the artifact kill and the ability to be played off of red instead of green.

[BreathWeapon]

Has any one tried MD Leyline of the Void? Cephalid and Ichorid scoop to it, combo can't Infernal Tutor into Ill Gotten Gains for the win, Tarmogoyf, Werebear and Nimble Mongoose become managable and there are some marginal gains against Life from the Loam/Crucible of Worlds, Survival and Landstill. Considering the format is starting to look a lot like Vintage, looking at their metagamed Goblins deck might not be a bad idea.

[Cait_Sith]

I've seen MD Leyline, MD Tormod's, but personally I prefer SB Planar Void. Although it comes down a turn later (if it is in your opening hand) it can really beat up on Tarmogoyf, is much easier to play if NOT in your opening hand, and still messed up Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid. (Note that Breakfast will try to just bounce it)

[Jaynel]

Goblins in Vintage runs Leyline maindeck. There was also a Goblins deck in the T8 at the recent Duals Tournament in Hadley, MA that ran some amount of Tormod's Crypts maindeck. I think it was 3.

On another note, I've dropped my land count back to 22 from 23. Having a ton of lands was really only useful in the mirror. In the meta right now where you won't play the mirror that often, I'd rather have some utility guys, like Sharpshooter or Stingscourer. That guy has proved to be very awesome. He bounces Goyfs so you can swing for the win or nails some other blocker on turn 2 to let your Lackey connect.

[morgan_coke]

I know the deck is already insanely crowded, but one card that I haven't seen any discussion of that's an easy solution to the Goyf-on-Gob violence issue is Frenzied Goblin.

He essentially "kills" one of your opponents' blockers for R as long as he's on the board - and as long as the blocker is targetable by red creatures. He's a card that isn't that flashy and feels worthless, but does something really, really useful... like getting lackey past that 'goyf when its too big for incinerator. I don't think he'd be good as a 4-of or anything, but a singleton copy seems like a pretty useful option to have.

[Tacosnape]

Okay. Assuming you aren't running black, and are sticking with R/W or R/G, what's the correct graveyard hate for the board? Crypt or Leyline?

EDIT: Second point of discussion. Battle Squadron has been errataed to a Goblin. Is this feasible as a big flying finisher?

[GreenOne]

There are 3 and 4 cc gobbos in lorwyn that are nice.
Vial don't seem good if many of your gobbos are >3 cc, it become too slow. Did anyone think about a goblin version with higher cc and Chrome Mox + Ancient Tomb to accelerate them?
Wort, Boggart Auntie in particular, seems good, surviving pyroclasm and taking back your dead gobbos, and making for the card disadvantage of chrome mox.

That deck could be a blast even without lackey/vial start, with turn 1 Matron, turn 2 Ringleader/Wort, turn 3 SGC. Even turn 1 piledrive, turn 2 warchief, turn 3 matron-> piledriver win seems good.

Did anyone tried something like that?

[Eldariel]

I posted one a few pages back. For reference:


Right, here's a 'Big Goblins'-build I was fooling around with.

Main
12 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland

4 AEther Vial

2 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Goon
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard
SB: 2 Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 Goblin Assassin
SB: 3 Anarchy
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Brightstone Ritual
SB: 2 Patron of the Akki


I was also considering some Great Furnaces and a singleton Krark-Clan Shaman as an affordable answer to Warrens and a trick in the mirror, as well as unthreshed mongoose-killer, but meh. Note, I went mono-red because I felt like trying to build mono-red for a change. It did great against UGr Threshold. Goblin Goon is seriously huge and Stingscourger has its uses too. Mirror is naturally dicey, but I split about even there. I was thinking a Sharpshooter over a Fanatic, but Fanatic is so sweet against Cephfast... The lower number of Gempalms is just natural since in this meta, you want them midgame, not early on. 22 lands is too few (surprise, surprise), but I couldn't really fit any more. So yea, some kind of Gooned build. They definitely help a lot. Now just to fit them in without raping the rest of the deck. Oh, and I'm pretty happy with Stingscourgers.

I haven't worked on it much since and it could probably utilize some splash. I just felt like trying how mono-red works, but Rb, Rw and Rg all look superior now. Boggart Mob and Wort both look amazing for Rb and Mad Auntie isn't horrible either (although probably not good enough to play). One awesome feature about the black Goblins is that their coloured black costs are limited to B, so they're all splashable. Wort is the hardest to cast since he costs RB so you need a black source and another coloured source, but since it costs 4, that ought to be doable more often than not. But yea, the Tomb/Mox plan is perfectly functional. Wasteland becomes more of a problem this way though since the deck only runs 22 lands. The acceleration really helps though. Especially the Threshold (UGr most importantly) is greatly improved with the addition of multiple Stingscourgers and Goblin Goons, the lower number of Gempalms and the ability to cast big guys early.

[dlevsApiJ]

Hmmm,, that looks nice, i like the fast mana :)
Anyone tested the Battle Squadron?

Mvg

[erhnamdjinn]

i black gobs really viable that we lose the ability to deal with eng. plague which is kinda rampant in most sb's

[dlevsApiJ]

I Splash Black and Green/White :)

Mvg

[erhnamdjinn]

I Splash Black and Green/White :)

Mvg

doesnt that get 2 diluted? From what i base my gobs I only allocate 7 slots to non-gobs cards and thats 4 vials and 3 stp's anything past that makes your ringleader miss alot of times. Which is why Im thingking of removing stp's for crib swap and maybe adding that new changeling in white to further increase my gob count.

[kicks_422]

It's basically giving up mana consistency for more answers to hate... If the meta is Wasteland-heavy, then splashing two colors might not be a good idea. And besides, even with 2 splashes, non-Goblin cards are still kept at minimum. For example, 4 Vials and 4 StP's/4 Tin Street Hooligan MD, then there would be 4 Krosan Grip/Disenchant and 4 Cabal Therapy in the SB to replace those StP's with when necessary.

EDIT: Oh, and there are answers to Engineered Plague in Black, just not that good though... Dralnu's Crusade and now Mad Auntie...

[Tacosnape]

I don't think there's really all that many cards worth splashing, truth be told. And each color splash has a clear-cut frontrunner of the reason you splash that color. And each of them have cutesy ideas that might seem playable and aren't. So let's make this short and sweet - The reasons to splash colors.

White Splash
Swords to Plowshares - If you aren't running this, you have no reason to be running White. End of story. It's the best creature removal in the game.

Mirror Entity - Pretty good. Can win you the game singlehandedly in a close midgame, but so can Siege-Gang Commander.

Disenchant - You run this, or a cousin of it, if you're running Red-White only. Otherwise you skip it.

Armageddon - Very unlikely to be necessary, but in a bizarre meta, it's possible.

Green Splash
Tin-Street Hooligan - Still one of the best Goblins ever. Fits in Goblins' least common CMC slot, eats Jittes, eats Needles, eats Moxes, eats opposing Vials, you name it.

Krosan Grip - The best Naturalize ever printed, yet it overlaps in a way with Tin-Street Hooligan, making Tranquil Domain considerable in some metagames.

Black Splash
Thoughtseize - The best discard spell this deck could ask for.

Cabal Therapy - The second. Less likely to make the cut in a 3-color build.

Planar Void - Probably better than Crypt or Leyline, but not by a lot. Run it if you're splashing black, but don't splash black for it.

Terminate - The best option for targeted creature removal in RB Goblins. It's necessity is arguable. Could be Smother if it had to be.

Wort, Boggart Auntie - Worth exactly one slot, but board her out if you bring in Planar Void.

Multiple Splashes
Ray of Revelation - An option in RWG to handle what Tin-Street Hooligan doesn't. No better card exists against Plague.

Vindicate - An option in RWB to handle virtually anything.

Engineered Explosives - A catch-all removal spell that can hit Plague, Tarmogoyf, and handle ETW Tokens.

[Shriekmaw]

I just want to make a few quick observations from at least my area of the legacy metagame. I realize that combo is a bad matchup for goblins, but is it worth splashing a sub-par color like black just to improve that matchup?

I think black is a good color to run, but I think green is almost necessary for not only tin street which is debatable at this point, but for sb krosan grip. I believe running both of the colors seems like a good strategy, b ut I'm a big believer in having a consistent mana base, and I don't like running all those duals and not a lot of basics in the deck.

This may sound kinda stupid, but I rather just pack some cards in the board to slightly help the combo matchup. I would shift more of my focus on the other decks that people tend to play b/c at least in Syracuse combo has gone down just by all the control decks that people like to play.

The only problem with running only black there is not a good solution on taking care of plague or other global enchantments that may be a problem.

[Tacosnape]

I sort of agree. I've found with a sideboard of:

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle

That I can have a tolerable matchup against a broad field of troublesome matchups without splashing black. Epic Storm's probably my worst match, but that was never a wonderful setup for Goblins anyway.

That said, Thoughtseize is an answer to Plague. And Wort, Boggart Auntie is really good. But I'm not convinced Lorwyn has made black the go-to color, as of yet.

[puddn]

White Splash
you forget crib swap... in this deck i think it's better than sword to plowshare


Black Splash
you forget the most important card for the black splas: oversold cemetary (for SB) it's just the best card against pyroclasm and in the mirror
you forget too vendetta which is better than terminate and dralnu's crusade (anecdotal)

[Faluzure]

you forget crib swap... in this deck i think it's better than sword to plowshare

you forget the most important card for the black splas: oversold cemetary (for SB) it's just the best card against pyroclasm and in the mirror
you forget too vendetta which is better than terminate and dralnu's crusade (anecdotal)

Crib Swap is decent, but I don't think Crib Swap is better than Swords to Plowshares. Crib Swap requires 2 additional mana and you're giving your opponent a 1/1 creature to chump block things. Given the argument that this is awesome for your Gempalm to do more damage, you actually have to have the Gempalm out.

As for Black Splash, Oversold Cemetery would be nice. Not so sure about Vendetta. Is Vendetta worth including in a mirror match?

[erhnamdjinn]

im still not sold on adding more than 1 color in gobs its either you splash w/g or black but not go 4 color, wtf happens to your landbase? All non-basic? You become all the more vunerable to wasteland which is heavily played? I guess there all meta dependent, my build for gobs goes like this

4 gemplam
3 matron
1 goblin tinkerer
4 warchief
4 piledriver
4 ringleader
4 fanatic
2 siege-gang
4 lackey
3 stp
4 vials
7 fetches
3 plateau
4 wasteland
4 ports
5 mountains

sb:
3 disenchant
1 sharpshooter
2 pyrokiniesis
3 COTV
3 tormonds crypt
rest meta dependent
3 pyrostatic
1-2 pyroblast
1 sharpshooter.

As you can see the decks mana base is shaky as is so I dont see the point in splashing in multiples just to handle various threats. Plus it hampers your ringleader draws if the deck has multiple non-gobs.

[Tacosnape]

you forget crib swap... in this deck i think it's better than sword to plowshare


you forget the most important card for the black splas: oversold cemetary (for SB) it's just the best card against pyroclasm and in the mirror
you forget too vendetta which is better than terminate and dralnu's crusade (anecdotal)

I didn't mention Crib Swap because Crib Swap is just Crap with an "ib Sw" in there to disguise this fact. Three mana is too much to pay for a removal spell, especially, when three mana is a slot you desperately need open to cast your Goblins.

I didn't mention Oversold Cemetary because it's not the best card against Pyroclasm - Goblin Ringleader is. I'll grant you that Cemetary might be useful in the mirror or against sweepers, but generally goblins bails itself out of that fairly well.

And I didn't mention Vendetta because A. It doesn't hit black creatures, and B. If you want to lose 5-6 life for that Tarmogoyf instead of paying 1 mana, you go right ahead. And Vendetta isn't good in the mirror at all.

[isdepopecatholic]

Is it just me, or did they move this thread?

[Jak]

Moved it. I think it will get back in the DTB forum. It's just that people are underestimating this deck right now.

[APriestOfGix]

nope, goblins is done.

Stick a fork in this deck, yep it's done!

[Lone Signal]

Moved it. I think it will get back in the DTB forum. It's just that people are underestimating this deck right now.I think people are tired of playing with and against this deck. I know me and my friends have dropped playing it because it's been overdone. Still, if we pick it up again in the future, I highly doubt it'll have a losing record.

[Gekoratel]

I was wondering how good CoTV is against the current Thresh builds with Goyf. In the past shutting down the cantrip-base and StP made it quite strong in the matchup but has Goyf swung it around so much that Chalice isn't worth it any more. I ask because I've looked over a few boards and it seems like many of them don't have Chalice which I considered a staple in the past.

Thanks for the help.

[Gluemy]

Nowadays the problem with CoTV is that Thresh plays now more answers to it (Spell Snare) than in the past, and it's main threats aren't affected by it (Werebear and 'Goyf). CoTV is mainly a sideboard card against combo, because it's now better then Pyrostatic Pillar (damn ETW).

Against Threshold I think better strategy is just maindeck Leyline of the Void; Bears and Mongooses are 1/1 all the time, and Goyf is just 2/3 mostly (3/4 if they happen to counter our Vial). 2/3 Goyf is basically Elvish Warrior, and that's not very scary at all. That's also easier to burn with Incinerator. Leyline also makes other matchups better, like Iggy-Pop and LftL-decks. It also murders Ichorid and some random Rogue-decks that might steal a game or two from you (like Re-animator). It's just overally good.

[Tacosnape]

I definitely agree that Chalice isn't good in Goblins anymore. I'd go so far as to say that it never was.

Maindeck Leyline is an interesting idea. It definitely improves the Threshold match, and it's a godsend against Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast. However, there's a problem with doing this.

The problem with maindecked Leylines is that in a large tournaments, you don't know when to mulligan for it / mulligan out of it. If someone sits down across from you who you don't know and you have no idea what they're playing, and your opening seven is decent and doesn't contain a Leyline, you can't really afford to go mulliganing for it when you have no idea if it's even going to help you in said matchup. Similarly, if you get an opening hand with a Leyline that's questionable other than the Leyline, you don't have any information on which to gauge if that Leyline is strong enough to make the hand keepable.

[Iranon]

Is there really a reason to maindeck Leyline in a deck that doesn't profit from it?

If the metagame is so heavily reliant on the yard, there has to be a deck that can abuse the hell out of it without relying too heavily on the yard to be inconvenienced by everyone elses hate.
A modified SI comes to mind.

[Citrus-God]

There's always Meekstone.... Then Ancient Grudge comes and bashes it away.

[Shriekmaw]

Is there really a reason to maindeck Leyline in a deck that doesn't profit from it?

If the metagame is so heavily reliant on the yard, there has to be a deck that can abuse the hell out of it without relying too heavily on the yard to be inconvenienced by everyone elses hate.
A modified SI comes to mind.


I'm not a fan of Leyline of the Void in goblins at all. I would rather have those slots for cards that will help you will the game against any deck. It depends on your preference of splash color, but I would almost rather have therapies or tin streets/incinerators over 4 main deck leylines.

I've been always a fan of tormod's crypt in the board for graveyard decks that you may run into. It allows you to drop it at any point within the game to gain a clear advantage.

The metagame is always changing depending on your location. I would almost have to say the 2 best builds of goblins is either the green or the black splash.

I'm always changing my board and splash color in the deck. It usually depends on the kind of metagame I'm expecting. If I feel a lot of combo will show up then I'll go with the black splash, if not then I'll just run goblins with the green splash.

I do like the green splash a lot more, but with combo around you have to change your strategy in order to have a good chance of winning in today's environment.

[Drossie]

I'm also preferring the green splash.
I was expecting much from Lowryn, especially black goblins, but I'm a bit dissapointed...

@ Nickrit: what's your G/R build? And your R/B?

[Shriekmaw]

I'm also preferring the green splash.
I was expecting much from Lowryn, especially black goblins, but I'm a bit dissapointed...

@ Nickrit: what's your G/R build? And your R/B?


I have listed my 2 builds down below. I don't pretend that they are perfect builds with the most optimal sideboards, but I have done well with them. It is goblins after all, and they do win against a lot of matchups.

R/g Vial Goblins

5 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

SB

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tranquil Domain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin King


R/b Vial Goblins

5 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Badlands
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Seige-Gang Commander


SB

4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Dralnu’s Crusade
3 Smother
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

[Tacosnape]

Your R/G List is almost identical to mine (I don't run Sharpshooters and do run Pithing Needle in board), and so to raise this debate from the dead for the 8 billionth time, what's Sharpshooter buy us again?

[TeenieBopper]

Your R/G List is almost identical to mine (I don't run Sharpshooters and do run Pithing Needle in board), and so to raise this debate from the dead for the 8 billionth time, what's Sharpshooter buy us again?

Versatility and combat tricks. He's also stupid good in the mirror.

[Shriekmaw]

Versatility and combat tricks. He's also stupid good in the mirror.


I would also like to add the following: He's also stupid good against survival.

He has won me a lot of games against survival which is always very popular over here in Syracuse.

[frolll]

Has anyone considered playing 3 or 4 Oversold Cemetary in the SB of the RB version. With the Terapies and the Incinerator they seems to be not that bad, theorically. They're CA provider and with Gempalm they give you a nice tool for board control. ;)

I also confess that I wanna drop the LD package and go with 4 Therapies 4 Thoughtseize in the MD, just for kicks (and some testing, too). Other Lowryn Goblins inclusion are options as well.

[burkey_boy]

Why/how is goblins out of the DTB forum???

[Sims]

Why/how is goblins out of the DTB forum???

According to the current set of guidelines for determining status in the DTB forum, Goblins has not met the current requirements. It barely held on last month, and this months batch of tournaments didn't have enough Gobbie top 8's to qualify, thus it was moved to ED until it meets the requirements again.

There is a thread in community disucssing LMF guidelines and what they should be and what the LMF group of decks should look like, if you wish to read through it and participate in the conversation there. At the moment, however, goblins does not qualify for DTB status.

[Drossie]

R/g Vial Goblins

5 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

SB

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tranquil Domain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin King


My build is very similar:

4X Goblin Piledriver
4X Goblin Ringleader
4X Gempalm Incinerator
4X Goblin Lackey
4X Goblin Matron
4X Goblin Warchief
3X Mogg Fanatic
2X Siege-Gang Commander
2X Tin Street Hooligan
1X Goblin Sharpshooter
1X Kiki, Jiki
1X Stingscourger

4X Æther Vial

4X Mountain
3X Wooded Foothills
4X Taiga
3X Bloodstained Mire
4X Rishadan Port
4X Wasteland

// sideboard

4X Tormod’s Crypt
4X Krosan Grip
3X Chalice of the Void
3X Pyrokinesis

Sideboard needs some changements. I have 3 Pithing Needles now, they will replace the chalices I think.

[Drossie]

No one replies anymore? Goblins are really dead?

[ClearSkies]

No one replies anymore? Goblins are really dead?

Well, basically everyone is running the same few goblins, and the same few non-goblins for either of the various types of Vial Goblin. (R/G, R/W, Mono Red, R/B, and R/W/G) Only difference is people just have a few cards difference. (Not to mention that Goblins have been around for what feels like forever)

Pithing Needle has different functions than Chalice of the Void.
I always have Chalice of the Void in my Sideboard because it is so insanely good.

However, there are probably situations that Pithing Needle are better. (Which depends on your metagame) Without knowing what is your metagame, we can't really decide what is the best sideboard for you. If you know your metagame, you can most likely come up with a pretty good sideboard yourself.

[JakeH]

No one replies anymore? Goblins are really dead?

Yup - but everybody still packs hate for them in the sideboard. its kinda like old war veterans twitching during an Independence Day celebration.

[Drossie]

What about this build? Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14902.html


R/B Goblins
Maindeck:

4 Aether Vial
4 Thorn Of Amethyst

4 Boggart Mob
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-gang Commander
3 Wort, Boggart Auntie

5 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 City Of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Dralnu's Crusade
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Cabal Therapy

[TeenieBopper]

Bogart Mob sucks.

Where's Mogg Fanatic?

Why in god's name are you running three Wort?

Where's your maindeck removal?

[Drossie]

Comments on my build?

My build is very similar:

4X Goblin Piledriver
4X Goblin Ringleader
4X Gempalm Incinerator
4X Goblin Lackey
4X Goblin Matron
4X Goblin Warchief
3X Mogg Fanatic
2X Siege-Gang Commander
1X Tin Street Hooligan
1X Goblin Sharpshooter

4X Æther Vial
3X Thorn of Amethyst

4X Mountain
3X Wooded Foothills
4X Taiga
3X Bloodstained Mire
4X Rishadan Port
4X Wasteland

// sideboard

3X Tormod’s Crypt
4X Krosan Grip
4X Pithing Needle
3X Pyrokinesis
1X Goblin King

[kicks_422]

I think as of right now, Goblins shouldn't be maindecking extra removal out of Incinerator and Fanatic. Just take the 4 Waste + 4 Port plan, fill out the manabase, add 4 Thorns and 4 Vials, then round the deck out with Goblins.

Running 8 artifacts MD might make running Hooligan a bad idea, if a splash is needed at all.

[Maveric78f]

I think as of right now, Goblins shouldn't be maindecking extra removal out of Incinerator and Fanatic. Just take the 4 Waste + 4 Port plan, fill out the manabase, add 4 Thorns and 4 Vials, then round the deck out with Goblins.

Running 8 artifacts MD might make running Hooligan a bad idea, if a splash is needed at all.

Do you know that you can choose not to pay G in order not to be forced to destroy an artifact ? Or simply vial it, lackey it, etc...

[dlevsApiJ]

My new list:

// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Taiga

// Creatures
4 Goblin Matron
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Tranquil Domain
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Meekstone
SB: 3 Smother/Snuff Out/Terminate

What Removal will be the best in the side? I think Terminate, cause its the one that kills the most creatures, but 2 colored mana is sometimes a problem...
Other tips?
Wort, Boggart Auntie? For after mass destruction? Ore some other Lorwyn goblin?

Mvg

[kicks_422]

Do you know that you can choose not to pay G in order not to be forced to destroy an artifact ? Or simply vial it, lackey it, etc...

Whoops, my bad.

Though I have to ask, is there really a point to splashing a color nowadays? Engineered Plagues are getting run less, and combo can be already be answered by Thorns/Pillars/Crypts, with removal in Pyrokineses.

[Sims]

Whoops, my bad.

Though I have to ask, is there really a point to splashing a color nowadays?

Bidding.

Ask Mike.

[TeenieBopper]

Bidding.

Ask Mike.

Mostly Smother and Therapy, but yeah, bidding is like the nut high off the top.

Look, here's the deal with goblins- it's got rough match ups now. Those match-ups are Thresh and combo (with landstill coming back close to even with goblins having to adjust to deal with the other two). Combo is just shitty. Shitty shitty shitty. There's almost no way you're ever going to get an even to favorable match up against combo with goblins without making Thresh and Landstill auto losses. Since the things that are good against thresh are also good against control, my plan is to pretty much throw away the combo match-ups and depend on the rest of the metagame to deal with them.

White is good against Thresh(or rather, Tarmagoyf). That's about it. It doesn't help any other match up. Black does. Smother might as well be StP in this format. Therapy is awesome against control at forcing your bombs through (Ringleader, SGC, Bidding) while also giving you something against combo. Bidding is crazy. Simply put, black gives you answers to just about everything.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Mostly Smother and Therapy, but yeah, bidding is like the nut high off the top.

Look, here's the deal with goblins- it's got rough match ups now. Those match-ups are Thresh and combo (with landstill coming back close to even with goblins having to adjust to deal with the other two). Combo is just shitty. Shitty shitty shitty. There's almost no way you're ever going to get an even to favorable match up against combo with goblins without making Thresh and Landstill auto losses. Since the things that are good against thresh are also good against control, my plan is to pretty much throw away the combo match-ups and depend on the rest of the metagame to deal with them.

White is good against Thresh(or rather, Tarmagoyf). That's about it. It doesn't help any other match up. Black does. Smother might as well be StP in this format. Therapy is awesome against control at forcing your bombs through (Ringleader, SGC, Bidding) while also giving you something against combo. Bidding is crazy. Simply put, black gives you answers to just about everything.
Why not just run Perish over smother?

For one measly mana more it kills Goose and other nasty things that smother can't hit and can also take out multiple Goyfs that are preventing your horde from swinging in for the win.

[TeenieBopper]

Why not just run Perish over smother?

For one measly mana more it kills Goose and other nasty things that smother can't hit and can also take out multiple Goyfs that are preventing your horde from swinging in for the win.

I actually did think about running Perish in the board at the EPIC DLD. Smother is just more versatile. It kills everything in the formal, not just every green thing.

[dlevsApiJ]

Isn't Terminate better then Smother?

[redmage]

Isn't Terminate better then Smother?

It all depends.

If it's turn 2 and I'm staring at a Badlands & R.Port... I'd, likely, rather have the Smother.

[dlevsApiJ]

Today, i was thinking:

Why play Black over White?

Against Goyf: Black has Smother/Terminate/Snuff out, but White has the much better STP
Against combo: Black had Therapy(/Duress/Thoughtseize), but Orim's Chant in white is also i very good card against combo, let them fizzle after playing a Burning Wish or something like that is really good, you dont only remove their kill, like whit discard, also all of their mana is gone, and they even get mana burn!!

+ when you splash White over Black, and you also play green, Ray of Revelation is much better then Tranquil Domain (i play 2 of them)


Greetz


EDIT: when you also need Leyline of the Void/Planar Void in your meta, you better play the Black splash, but in my meta, with not much Grave Combo (like Ichorid and Breakfast) i dont need them, and splashing white over black only gives better cards.

[Cait_Sith]

Therapy makes it easy for you to put dudes into your graveyard, making it better vs Ichorid. Therapy also lets you hit their hand multiple times and is proactive, so it dodges things like Abeyance, Orim's Chant, and Xantid Swarm.

[Tacosnape]

Duress/Therapy/Seize don't just hit combo decks, you know. It's also an answer to Engineered Plague or any other problematic card you run across. White has to assign different cards to all of these duties. Black's answers are far more all-purpose.

EDIT: How is Thorn of Amethyst, for all you people running it? I haven't tested it and it looks interesting if not overwhelmingly convincing.

[dlevsApiJ]

Yeah that's true, better playing Black then, with Cabal Therapys main over the Amathysts (i also havent tested them, so is someone had tested them, please tell if they are good enough)
Isnt 1 Goblin Goon / 1 Ib in the SB good against Goyf?

Mvg

[Sims]

Well in theory Thorn is good. It's a disruptive element that doesn't really disrupt much of your deck and sits in the relatively empty 2 mana slot that is even colorless so you don't have to worry bout what color mana you've got in the early turns.

Honestly, however, I haven't tested it practically.

[Marco]

Check out http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7441 for a possible new Goblin deck.

[Drossie]

I've tested Thorn of Amethyst yesterday and I think I will play him.
I've played 10 games against affinity and AggroLoam and I went 7-3.

A combination of Thorn, Wasteland en Port really slows your opponent down whil you can play your goblins with Aether Vial.

The only question now is to play the Thorn MD or in SB.
I can play 3 in SB instead of the Pyrokinesis. Then I can play 4 more Goblins.

But I think I will play him MD. I think he is good against a lot of decks! Only in the mirrormatch he is very bad, but there aren't that much goblinplayers left in my meta.

This is the decklist I will play I think.

4x Æther Vial
4x Thorn of Amethyst

3x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Mogg Fanatic
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Tin Street Hooligan

3x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Mountain
4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

SIDEBOARD
4x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Goblin King
4x Krosan Grip
3x Pyrokinesis

I think I will cut the SB Pyrokinesis, but don't know what to play instead. Chalice? Tranquil Domain?

[galeng]

Hi. Im a new legacy player and I'm definitely most instested in goblins in this format since goblins have been my favourite creature type since Onslought (and even more now in Lorwyn). I also like the fact that a tribal creature based deck can still be competitive in legacy: the format of combo and thresh.

My goblins build right now is as follows:

Main Deck:
14 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Goblin King
3 Flaring Pain
1 Goblin Tinkerer

Now I know the first thing youre thinking of is WTF no splash?! but I've done a lot of testing and have many reasons to show where it's not needed...

Goblin King vs. Engineered Plague
Common defense is a disenchant or duress. King does the job since it negates the plague's ability and it also has some other advantages: Tutorable with matron or drawable with ringleader, playable with lackey or vial (can't be countered), saves your goblins from the wipe before the plague is dropped (rather than waiting, then disenchanting), and lastly it helps with the affinity of the deck (and it attacks!).

Flaring Pain vs. Worship/CoP:Red
Play it when you can attack for lethal. Flashback if its countered.

Goblin Tinkerer vs. Pithing Needle/Jitte
Tutorable to get annoying artifacts out of the way.

Ive tried spashing and black tends to be the best due to cabal therapy efficiency, but it still isn't worth the cut on goblin count (assuming you main deck therapy) and a mana base that gets owned by Stifle, Pithing Needle and Wasteland. Plus the life loss on fetches can decide the game.

So in conclusion, how do you think I could improve the build? I don't know much about the metagame and I don't know everything that's out there so give me some input. Give me some suggestions and things the deck is weak against. The things im not so sure on is the maindeck king and sharpshooter and the sideboard pillar vs chalice. Any feedback is appreciated.

[Blacktail]

I can personally vouch for that build, I play against it constantly. My only suggestion is some needles for the board instead of the flaring pain. I really like the maindeck Jitte, it's won so many games that it shouldn't have.

Very solid

[galeng]

I can personally vouch for that build, I play against it constantly. My only suggestion is some needles for the board instead of the flaring pain. I really like the maindeck Jitte, it's won so many games that it shouldn't have.

Very solid

Pithing Needle is a really solid sb card I agree, but is it worth getting locked by prevent damage. I understand the needle can take out CoP, but Worship is still a problem. I'm seeing a lot of worship and Sphere of Law in sideboards, and I have to admit that it scares me.

[GreenOne]

Worship is still a problem. I'm seeing a lot of worship and Sphere of Law in sideboards, and I have to admit that it scares me.

In my Monored version (which i'm testing at the moment) I play Blood Moon(are they really going to draw the lonely basic plains they need to Worship? Will the play a creature before BloodMoon hits? Lots of ifs on their side) and Anarchy.

Anarchy may seem bad but it takes down sooo many things: CoP, Sphere of Law, Worship, Silver Knights, soltary priest, Solitary Confinament, Jotun Grunts, Serra Avenger, Mother of Runes, Meddling Mage, Geddok teeg, Humility, Mystic Enforcer, en-kor critters, exhalted angel, decree of justice tokens, Moat...
It just shines vs Enchantress, Angel Stompy, Rift and D&T.

Here's my list atm:
// Lands
14 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [U] Goblin King
SB: 2 [JU] Fledgling Dragon (My choice vs plague, moat and pyroclasm)

I'd like to add some price of progress as a surprise effect - alternative win, but can't find room.

Advantages of the monored version:
- You start from 20 life instead of 18.
- You can't color-screw. This happens rarely with the maindeck, but it happens post-side
- Wasteland - You're less vulnerable
- Stifle - Being timewalked vs tempo decks is not good I hear
- Blood Moon - A beating in a LOT of matchups (Thresh, Landstill, 43Lands, Loam, Breakfast), it has nice synergy with Goblin King.

Disadvantages:
- Limited card choices, both in goblin and non-goblin cards.


@Thorn of Amethyst:
That card was surprisingly good in many matchups.
- It slows down control decks and you can use your mana disruption in a more efficient way.
- It hoses storm combo MD if you're on the play.
- It's good vs Enchantress.
- Nice vs D&T
- It was even quite good vs Loam decks (laying Geddon with 5 lands in play and loam that costs 3 can be difficult)

Matchups where it sucks:
- Ichorid
- Breakfast
- Mirror

Unfortunately couldn't test vs Thresh.. :frown:
G2 Thorn is a little less one-sided. That can be an issue, sometimes.

[Benie Bederios]

Anarchy may seem bad but it takes down sooo many things: ..., Geddok teeg, ...

No it don't :tongue:

On a serious note, I played against the deck and the deck looks pretty promissing.

Cutting down to three Mogg's is curious though. It's a nice creature against Ichorid and Breakfast. Both are probably though games G1, so having a 1CC speedbump for them is nice.

BB

[Maveric78f]

To give the double Splash a try :

// Lands (23)
4 [7E] Mountain (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [B] Badlands
3 [B] Plateau
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (30)
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells (6)
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [LRW] Crib Swap

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Crib Swap
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [B] Disenchant
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant

I find white better against combo and to provide removal (Crib Swap is nice, disenchant too) but the recursion guy (Wort) is too precious to be ignored. Orim's chant is better than any discard spell.

In a perfect world I would have maindecked Thorn and SBed Chalice at its place, but we all know that gob's slots are very tight, and I don't want to design my all SB to it. A possibility would be -1sharpy, -1pilly, -1incinerator and -1 fanatic. But I'm not sure yet.

[GreenOne]

No it don't :tongue:


Sigh.. my bad :rolleyes:



Cutting down to three Mogg's is curious though. It's a nice creature against Ichorid and Breakfast. Both are probably though games G1, so having a 1CC speedbump for them is nice.


I want the 4th mogg too, but the only debatable slot is Thorn's. I was testing it, so i wanted to have access to the 4x.
However, Breakfast is something like 50/50 G1. And heavily favorable G2 unless they get a Vial AND an Abeyance.
In games I tested I went 2/1, 2/0, 2/0. However, he drew no Vial in ALL games.

[Eldariel]

Mogg Fanatic is better than Gempalm Incinerator in this metagame. You only really want Gempalms in the mirror and even there, Fanatic stops Lackey where Gempalm doesn't. It's quite the simple switch, Incins don't even do much anymore.

[zer0style]

Mogg Fanatic is better than Gempalm Incinerator in this metagame. You only really want Gempalms in the mirror and even there, Fanatic stops Lackey where Gempalm doesn't. It's quite the simple switch, Incins don't even do much anymore.

I agree, but along with the Fanatics, you still want the Gempalms because they are just fantastic in the meta. At least where I play. They can stop early Goyfs.

[Onphyre]

I am trying to decide between running Tormod's Crypt or Pyrostatic Pillar in my SB. I was wondering if some one could help me out with which is better in which matchups so I could make a decision based on my metagame. If not is there a good article that talks about the SB cards in Vial Goblins?

[ClearSkies]

I am trying to decide between running Tormod's Crypt or Pyrostatic Pillar in my SB. I was wondering if some one could help me out with which is better in which matchups so I could make a decision based on my metagame. If not is there a good article that talks about the SB cards in Vial Goblins?

Tormod's Crypt and Pyrostatic Pillar has completely different functions. Obviously, Pyrostatic Pillar is for non-graveyard Combo decks, and Tormod's Crypt is for graveyard Combo, Threshold, Loam, and other decks that rely on Graveyard.

It really depends on your metagame...

[Onphyre]

Yea I know there function I was just wondering which one to choose, I forgot to mention that I have Chalice of the Void as well, which I know can cover some of those decks so I may not need one as much as the other. Also is Pillar only effective against TES and Belcher then, those are the only 2 major non-graveyard combo decks that come to mind. My meta game has a pretty even mix of both types of combo so thats why I was having trouble deciding which one. I remember an article on sideboards for Goblins but I can't find it anymore, some guy on a random forum had written it so if anyone knows of a good article to read let me know.

[Eldariel]

Crypt is better presently since Pillar is very marginal and even the decks you'd bring it in against tend to be able to either outrace it (Belcher), or ignore it. You'll need another piece of hate or a slow hand for them for Pillar to work so I'd just go ahead and not play it. It isn't worth the slot.

[Shriekmaw]

Mogg Fanatic is better than Gempalm Incinerator in this metagame. You only really want Gempalms in the mirror and even there, Fanatic stops Lackey where Gempalm doesn't. It's quite the simple switch, Incins don't even do much anymore.


I think Mogg Fanatic is very good and should be run as a 4 of. As for Gempalm Incinerator this card is also necessary to run. I still run this as a 4 of b/c it kills almost any creature in the format and when everyone seems to be running Tarmogoyfs it is very important to kill them ASAP. Plus, it allows you to draw a card which is never a bad thing.

[Berzerked]

I think Mogg Fanatic is very good and should be run as a 4 of. As for Gempalm Incinerator this card is also necessary to run. I still run this as a 4 of b/c it kills almost any creature in the format and when everyone seems to be running Tarmogoyfs it is very important to kill them ASAP. Plus, it allows you to draw a card which is never a bad thing.

Agreed. I run a full set not just for Tarmogoyf, but for pretty much anything in my way. The fact that it's uncounterable and replaces itself just puts it over the edge. On top of that a full set of Fanatics is an absolute must - Chumps and usually trades, picks off annoyances, breaks Bridges, and has great interaction with Vial, Sharpshooter, and from being a Goblin.
That being said, he'd probably be my first cut (down to 3) if I was testing Thorn, as well. I'd probably cut an Incinerator before I cut Tinkerer#2 (Hooligan in my build) just because I've found his effect much too useful.

[Tacosnape]

This might be a rather random point for discussion, but I was searching through every red enchantment in existence for a reason completely unrelated to Goblins and ran across Raging River.

I don't suppose anyone's ever given any contemplation to Raging River, have they?

This card wreaks absolute havoc on a Tarmogoyf or any other potential blocker for Goblin Lackey. As long as your opponent has only one creature, they can't block your Goblins at all. If your opponent has two, they'll only be able to block with one, and a well timed Incinerator gets your army through.

[MadManMax]

This is my first post in Source forums, because I'm pretty new Legacy player. I always wanted to play Vial Goblins of this format and got to Top 8 at Baltic Legacy Cahmps with my Rg list. I went 4 wins+ 1 draw at 5 swiss rounds and then lost to a mirror in the Top 8. Report will be here soon :cool: .
Here is the list(comments are always welcome):

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hoolingan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

artifact [4]
4 Aether Vial

land [23]
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

The MVP of the the list was Goblin Incinerator-it's really graet against Thresh decks and their Tarmogoyfs(killed 2 Tarmos with Incinerators in a tourney) and also it's and uncounterable and self-replasing spell. The only thing I would like to change in this list is : -1 Siege, + 1 Kiki-Jiki( this one killed me both games, when playing mirror in the Top 8). My sb is kinda Combo based, because I was expecting a lot of Combo decks in this meta.

[GreenOne]

What is people playing currently?
I mean, outside of the staples what are MD choices for non-goblin cards?

I was quite happy with 4x Thorn of Amethist in monored gobbos. it really helped the combo matchup and was great vs control and aggro-control too (if played on turn 2). It obv sucked in the mirror. Blood moon was also a game-breaker in the side. I see some people is trying Magus of the Blood Moon MD. Is it worth it? Is the legs worth the non-critter-hate-proof ability?

@Tarnoscape :tongue: : raging river doesn't seem all that good. I'll never run it MD as it's dead vs many decks. I'd never put it in the side as there are better cards to fill that slot imo.

However, it's a damn cool card.

[Media314r8]

I have been Playing Rb golbins for a few moths now with the black splash for 1 eort and 1 mad auntie main, and another 3 aunties SB (alongside 4 thoughtseize) I have 4 thorn in the main and 4chalice side. 12 pieces f hate is usually enough disruption to beat combo. (3incinerators, 3sledders (unless vs bridge decks), and 1 of each tinkerer and ringleader come out) Thorn also helps against thresh and their cantrips, as well as other random decks. (i once beat an affinity player as he had plating in hand and two lands but couldn't find a third in time with thorn down.) I also preffer sledder to fanatic, as he helps lackey get through opposing geese, (mostly the only one drop played in top decks) whereas fanatic does nothing vs shroud guys. Sledder also kills bridge and pushes through damage in addition toscrewing up combat math and making fire (and sometimes bolt) a hard spell to cast vs golbins. Also saves mad auntie from clasm, which in turn saves most of your team.

I really think Thorn is the card goblins has needed to restor its DTB status and give it a chance vs combo game 1 without being a 'dead' card.

Also, cuts on pyrostatic pillar, I've tried it before, and it really doent usually do more than 12 damage which just isnt enough against fast combo decks.

[Eldariel]

If you're playing Rb, I can't really see a reason to run Thorn over Cabal Therapy, which can cripple combo while also being superb vs. any deck not named 42 Lands. Thorn suffers against Elves, the mirror, any heavy beatdown-deck and most control-decks. Therapy is also cheaper. All in all, it just seems like the superior card.

I totally agree on Pillar, it lost its usefulness about half a year ago when the new crop of fast combo came out. Against combo, Chalice, discard and Thorn are probably the best SB-cards.

Sledder seems interesting, but ultimately, there's too much utility in Fanatic for me to consider cutting any. Mana Birds/Elves and Lackeys are still around and in need of some serious Fanaticking. So are Confidants. Sledder has its uses though, but I don't think it's better than any Goblin presently in the deck.


Also, am I the only one who likes Boggart Mob? He allows you to attack relentlessly and even the tokens keep making new tokens, and he's a 5/5, or a 4/4 under Plague, still the biggest guy in the deck, and if he dies, you get to reactivate the Championed Matron's/Ringleader's CiPT. And the tokens make racing impossible for your opponent.

[Shriekmaw]

As of right now I really like the R/g/b build of Vial Goblins. I find it very important to have access to both green and black in the deck. I think the green is important for an answer to an artifact in Tin Street Hooligan in the main deck. Black adds Wort to the main, which is simply amazing in so many matches.

I also like green b/c in the board it gives you krosan grip which is very important to deal with engineered plague. The black in the board has both therapy and smother. I'm not totally sold on having smother in the board, but it is good in a few matchups, I run it as a 2 of. I think cabal therapy is needed b/c of the combo decks in the format, you must be able to at least put up some resistance.

I've been having some pretty good success with the R/g/b build so far and I'm really impressed with Wort, and how good he is.

[kabal]

Is anyone playing White Goblins anymore? Or is the trend moving towards Black. If you are still slashing White, have you given Crib Swap a try. I currently have 1 in my build, and it has been proving well. The synergy with other Goblin effects makes it pretty good, but I'm still running 2 StP main as well.

// Lands
6 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Plateau
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
1 Crip Swap
2 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifacts
4 Æther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 Goblin King
SB: 1 Leave No Trace
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis

[Mental]

Is anyone playing White Goblins anymore? Or is the trend moving towards Black. If you are still slashing White, have you given Crib Swap a try. I currently have 1 in my build, and it has been proving well. The synergy with other Goblin effects makes it pretty good, but I'm still running 2 StP main as well.

// Lands
6 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Plateau
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
1 Crip Swap
2 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifacts
4 Æther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 Goblin King
SB: 1 Leave No Trace
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis

I ran 3 crib swap in my main at a tourney, and it worked fairly well, however, I do think that the mana is a bit hefty. I'd run 4x StP instead, as they're faster and they let you swing the turn you StP if you remove their only blocker. Crib Swap doesn't let you do that, however, both are worth a shot. I did love Matroning for Crib Swap and killing goyf.

[asdljas]

Can someone post a reliable R/g/b list, sideboard included? I tried R/b, and ended up going back to R/g since the enchantment hate is just needed. R/g/b sounds like a plan though.

[dlevsApiJ]

I play R/g/w,, the black splash is for the creature and combo hate, but in white there are Stp's and Orims Chant's, they're much better I think,, You chant when they have played a few mana sources, so they get burn And have lost more cards, and when they combo (With EtW, thats most of the time) i have 4 EE (i play 4 EE and 4 Chant in the board).

Mvg

PS. want to see the list ;P?

[Mental]

I play R/g/w,, the black splash is for the creature and combo hate, but in white there are Stp's and Orims Chant's, they're much better I think,, You chant when they have played a few mana sources, so they get burn And have lost more cards, and when they combo (With EtW, thats most of the time) i have 4 EE (i play 4 EE and 4 Chant in the board).

Mvg

PS. want to see the list ;P?

Just to clarify: How is EE good in Goblins, especially if you plan to cast it for BGR? What does that even do?
Orim's Chant is interesting against combo, but isn't chalice better overall?

[Bovinious]

Can someone post a reliable R/g/b list, sideboard included? I tried R/b, and ended up going back to R/g since the enchantment hate is just needed. R/g/b sounds like a plan though.

My current R/b/g list that had been doing well in testing is the following:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [7E] Mountain (3)
2 [R] Taiga
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [R] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
2 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

1 Boggart Mob MD might be good rather than a 2nd Wort is something I may try, but Wort seems really good especially with Incinerator and Fanatic recursion. I originally cut a Incinerator rather than Piledriver, but Piledriver actually seems worse because hes not good on his own and can just be tutored up with Matron if you need a big alpha strike. I'm still not sure about the SB either but I know I want Therapies and Grips, any suggestions?

EDIT: Black sources are tech...

[calosso]

My current R/b/g list that had been doing well in testing is the following:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [7E] Mountain (3)
4 [R] Taiga
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
2 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

1 Boggart Mob MD might be good rather than a 2nd Wort is something I may try, but Wort seems really good especially with Incinerator and Fanatic recursion. I originally cut a Incinerator rather than Piledriver, but Piledriver actually seems worse because hes not good on his own and can just be tutored up with Matron if you need a big alpha strike. I'm still not sure about the SB either but I know I want Therapies and Grips, any suggestions?

where are the black sources? or are you gonna vial them in?

[Bovinious]

It's 2 badlands 2 Taiga not 4 taiga, will edit in.

[dlevsApiJ]

Just to clarify: How is EE good in Goblins, especially if you plan to cast it for BGR? What does that even do?
Orim's Chant is interesting against combo, but isn't chalice better overall?

Many decks play 1 or 4 Spree, when they play 4 they board in 3.. Against Chant they haven't answers (ok,, Swarm or Chant himself..). Also they can combo when you have a CotV,, when you have 2, one on 0 and one on 1 its verry hard, but if you have 1,, there hand can be that way that they can still combo. But if you want them more then EE,, you play 4 instead of 4 EE or something,, but in my meta they don't play combo very much (im one of the few who play it ;P)... EE is good in many matches,, to kill goyfs or something,,


Mvg

[kabal]

Has ever brought in Serenity in from the board? What sort of results did you have?

Overall, seems to be a decent card against Chalice Prision type decks. Unforunately, gives your opponent a whole turn to remove it. Decks like Survial or Landstill could find ways to remove it during their turn.

Seems to me that Leave No Trace (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/23.html) is more in likely a better option for removing those nasty Engineered Plagues.

[Bovinious]

EE for 3 in Rgb builds takes care of EPlague, and also takes care of ETW/Bridge tokens nicely, and can take out Tarmogoyfs in a pinch as well. For these reasons EE seems like a great SB option, and further justifies running Rgb because Grip and Therapy (along with Wort and Tin-Street MD) are great in the SB as well.

[asdljas]

Okay, so how about this for a R/g/b sideboard (assuming the main deck plays Tin-street and Wort)?


Sideboard
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyrokinesis

[TeenieBopper]

I prefer Smother to Pyrokinesis because a lot of times, Pyrokinesis isn't going to kill Tarmagoyf. I also still run a Sharpshooter in the main, so the killing multiple threats thing with Pyrokinesis isn't really missed.

I'm also not sold on Thorn either. But whatever floats your boat.

[asdljas]

I prefer Smother to Pyrokinesis because a lot of times, Pyrokinesis isn't going to kill Tarmagoyf. I also still run a Sharpshooter in the main, so the killing multiple threats thing with Pyrokinesis isn't really missed.

I'm also not sold on Thorn either. But whatever floats your boat.

I like the Smother idea. I'm not a fan of Pyrokinesis either (I didn't run it at TMLO). I'm interested in your opinion of Thorn though. I thought everyone was really hyped over it; I saw some lists playing it in the main deck. Although I never agreed with it in the main (it does nothing to further the Goblins' deck strategy - ie, it doesn't turn sideways), I found it useful in the board. Can you list some reasons you don't like Thorn? I think it deserves discussion.

[Bovinious]

I dont really see the point of Thorn, even if you get it down turn 2 Combo could have done its thing already, and it seems underwhelming when cast after turn 2-3. What matchups are yall running Thorn hoping to shore up with it?

Smother seems like a good idea to kill Goyf/Bob/Sea Drake/whatever, I'm not sure I like it better than EE though.

[asdljas]

I'm not completely sold on EE, but I'll test it tonight. Do Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle still deserve a slot? They handle sooo much random stuff.

[Bovinious]

My current Rgb has 4 Crypt SB, Thorn of Amythyst may take that spot though because I'm not as worried about the Ichorid and Breakfast matchups as I used to be.

[TeenieBopper]

I actually really like the idea of EE in the three color build. It's just versatile, and that's what I like my SB to be. I'm not sure what I'd cut from my board for it, though.

[asdljas]

What does your board look like?

[Bovinious]

My current SB is 4 Therapy, 3 Krosan Grip, 4 EE, 4 Crypt. the Therapys and Grips are pretty much neccessary and I'm liking EE, but again Im not sure Crypt is better than Thorn right now.

[TeenieBopper]

2 Crypt
3 Grip
3 Needle
3 Smother
4 Therapy

is what I played last weekend.

[asdljas]

So, no needle? Are we not worried about Survival, Belcher, Fairy Stompy, etc? (Damn the list is huge).

On EE: I think I'm just afraid to set EE to 3. Also, setting it at two hurts the piledriver kill.

[Bovinious]

Needle is another valid option as well, Im not worried about Survival because no one in my area plays it (and for good reason I say), Belcher is fading as well but EE for 0 can take care of ETW tokens (the most common win con), and Therapy can help in that matchup too. I guess in FS your worried about Needling equipment but I think its just as good if not better to tutor up Tin-Street and kill the equipment rather than nueter it and possibly become vulnerable if need dies. Basically, I have a way to kill everything Needle nueters and am not sure I need the speed/redundancy of Needle, its definitely a good option though.

[asdljas]

Excellent points. Can I hear some more arguments for or against Thorn of Amethyst?

[GreenOne]

Excellent points. Can I hear some more arguments for or against Thorn of Amethyst?

used to play thorn of Amethyst maindeck. These were my thoughts on it.

Vs fish / thresh they usually have to choose wether to play cantrips OR play creatures OR counter things on your turn, that's a lot of tempo loss on their side. However, the card was not fantastic past turn 2-3. Unfortunately, i couldn't test vs UGr, tested only UGw, UBW fish and UBWg (goyf) fish

VS control (landstill, Stax, Truffle Shuffle, Trainwreck, The Rock) that's not Rift it's a house. You really have ways to cheat on mana, A LOT of mana disruption, and they play almost no creatures. That's unfair.

Vs Storm combo: they don't expect it (so maybe they're slowing down the combo). If they expect it it's only good on the play. Storm decks are quite fast right now.

Vs Grave-based combo it's not that hot. Fortunately, Breakfast was already a good matchup. vs Ichorid it can be good if you can couple it with a wasteland. This usually shut down their entire manabase, so they can't Therapy, Dread Return...

Vs Goblins it sucks. Plain and simple. Even Mountain Goat would be better here.

Vs Burn it wins games. Plain and simple.

Vs Enchantress it helps, but not enough. Pre-Thorn it was like 8-2 on their side, now it's 7-3, 6-4 at best.

Vs Loam decks it's surprisingly good. Loam+Swords costs 5, a Mox Diamond costs 1... it really slows them down. Same thing about 43.lands. they have to choose to play Loam or activate their critters. If they start with manabond they usually win, but if they start with Exploration or nothing they have trouble times.

[calosso]

I don't see why people are not playing thoughtsieze in there boards.

4 thoughtsieze
4 therapy
3 grips
4 smother

I agree with teeniebopper about smother. With the decline of goblins and the increase of threshold and other aggro control decks, it is necessary to run smother. Also it kills goyf.

[Bovinious]

Thoughtsieze seems good as well, but I really think EE is better than Smother because it can kill Goyfs and Geese plural, creating more potential card advantage and can also blow up tokens from EtW and Bridge, as well as EPlague when set at 3. Now that I think about it Thoughtseize is probably the best choice for my last SB slot but I still need to get a set ><.

[Shriekmaw]

I don't see why people are not playing thoughtsieze in there boards.

4 thoughtsieze
4 therapy
3 grips
4 smother

I agree with teeniebopper about smother. With the decline of goblins and the increase of threshold and other aggro control decks, it is necessary to run smother. Also it kills goyf.


Thats not a bad sideboard to run in R/b/g goblins.

The current sideboard that I've been running to good success is the following:

4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Smother
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

I'm still a fan of pyrokinesis b/c its good against aggro. Maybe smother is the better choice, but I like pyrokinesis just in case other goblin decks show up.

If I expected a lot of control and combo to show up, I could easily take the pryokinesis out for thoughtseize as it helps in both of those matchups.

[TeenieBopper]

If I was playing thoughtseize in the board, I'd want to be playing therapy in the main, because if you get to the point where you actually need 7 discard spells in the board, chances are you're in an environment where you don't want to be running Goblins anyways.

[The Marco]

Is there a reason to run Smother over Terminate (even better if you still play Pyrokinesis)...

[Mental]

Is there a reason to run Smother over Terminate (even better if you still play Pyrokinesis)...

Good point, I'd definately run Terminate over Smother in Rb Goblins.

[TeenieBopper]

Is there a reason to run Smother over Terminate (even better if you still play Pyrokinesis)...

You're on the draw. Your opening hand is Badlands, wasteland, port, mogg fanatic, vial, Ringleader, Warchief, Terminate.

Your opponent leads off with a fetch into a basic island, Brainstorm.

You fail to draw another colored source of mana.

Your opponent plays a trop, then a Tarmagoyf.

How do you kill it?

Silver Knight is a bitch and a half too. So is Sea Sprite. Pro red in general sucks a lot of ass.

Incidently, the example I used above is precisely the reason I cut Port a long time ago too.

[Mental]

You're on the draw. Your opening hand is Badlands, wasteland, port, mogg fanatic, vial, Ringleader, Warchief, Terminate.

Your opponent leads off with a fetch into a basic island, Brainstorm.

You fail to draw another colored source of mana.

Your opponent plays a trop, then a Tarmagoyf.

How do you kill it?

Silver Knight is a bitch and a half too. So is Sea Sprite. Pro red in general sucks a lot of ass.

Incidently, the example I used above is precisely the reason I cut Port a long time ago too.

I can't take your post seriously because you cut port. It's better than Wasteland, IMO.

Also, with fetchlands + duals, the problem you stated won't come up too often. And who plays Silver Knight?

[Tacosnape]

I can't take your post seriously because you cut port. It's better than Wasteland, IMO.

Also, with fetchlands + duals, the problem you stated won't come up too often. And who plays Silver Knight?

People who haven't gotten the memo about Goblins not being the single hardest deck to beat and thereby adjusted their hate levels accordingly. Which is an amazing part of the less elite community.

Also, as far as double Port/Waste draws go, I tend to think as long as you've got a full sixteen Red sources, you're okay. This is why I only run 6 Waste/Port in 22 Land builds and 7 in 23 landers.

[The Marco]

You're on the draw. Your opening hand is Badlands, wasteland, port, mogg fanatic, vial, Ringleader, Warchief, Terminate.

Your opponent leads off with a fetch into a basic island, Brainstorm.

You fail to draw another colored source of mana.

Your opponent plays a trop, then a Tarmagoyf.

How do you kill it?

Silver Knight is a bitch and a half too. So is Sea Sprite. Pro red in general sucks a lot of ass.

Incidently, the example I used above is precisely the reason I cut Port a long time ago too.

Right!
I'm a Faerie Stompy player and nobody plays Sea Sprite anymore...silver knight is a bitch but the deck running it you should overpower (unless they have a jitte equipped on it.

Dude be a little open minded...Terminate is probably better 70% of the time...much better against randomness or Exalted (just an example)...
You are right sometimes you wont be able to cast it turn 2, block with your fanatic or whatever and kill that Goyf turn three or four.

[Mental]

People who haven't gotten the memo about Goblins not being the single hardest deck to beat and thereby adjusted their hate levels accordingly. Which is an amazing part of the less elite community.

Also, as far as double Port/Waste draws go, I tend to think as long as you've got a full sixteen Red sources, you're okay. This is why I only run 6 Waste/Port in 22 Land builds and 7 in 23 landers.

I might be willing to do something like that, but I'm not sure. The power of waste/port in the thresh matchup is just so undeniable. I've won games on it alone.
Also, in my meta I see very little Goblin hate ATM, it's all directed at thresh. Except this one MUC player, who has his entire SB to combat goblins. I still beat him though.

[The Marco]

Keeping at least 7 Waste/Port is the best reason not to splash 2 colors, I think one color splash is the way to go!
Personnally green is my favorite cause it keeps the deck focused and provide the necessary tools (grip and tin street). I think the black splash is good but probably a fad!

mY 2 CENTS!

[Mental]

Keeping at least 7 Waste/Port is the best reason not to splash 2 colors, I think one color splash is the way to go!
Personnally green is my favorite cause it keeps the deck focused and provide the necessary tools (grip and tin street). I think the black splash is good but probably a fad!

mY 2 CENTS!

I prefer white because it allows turn 2 Lackey hits and deals with Goyf better than any other splash. Goyf is a real problem for goblins and StP really helps with that. In addition, white has a better combo match up than green because it runs Orim's Chant in it's SB.

Green seems underwhelming to me as the only things it has access to are Krosan Grip and Tin Street, both cards made to destroy artifacts/counterbalances. While that's not bad, it doesn't seem worth splashing for.

[Bovinious]

Also, as far as double Port/Waste draws go, I tend to think as long as you've got a full sixteen Red sources, you're okay. This is why I only run 6 Waste/Port in 22 Land builds and 7 in 23 landers.

I agree entirely, I run 4 Wasteland 3 Port along with 23 lands and it works out fine, I wouldnt go down to 22 lands but if I did the cut would probably be another Port.

[TeenieBopper]

I can't take your post seriously because you cut port. It's better than Wasteland, IMO.

Also, with fetchlands + duals, the problem you stated won't come up too often. And who plays Silver Knight?

Dude. I was the first person to add port to the deck. I think I know the uses of port. You know why it was added? Because Landstill was the best deck and was geared to beat almost exclusively aggro decks. There was no Infernal Tutor or EtW at the time. With Landstill not running Humility (which was always the biggest problem with the match up, and the real reason you wanted to keep them off of WW) and Threshold having a real beater in the two drop slot instead of wearbear, the reasons for running Port aren't there anymore. Trust me, single colored source hands come up far too frequently. It's been that way since the days of FCG (yes, I speak from experience). I want to be able to actually cast my threats instead of relying on mana cheats because everyone and their mother is packing solutions to the mana cheats.


People who haven't gotten the memo about Goblins not being the single hardest deck to beat and thereby adjusted their hate levels accordingly. Which is an amazing part of the less elite community.

Quite the opposite, really. It's because I play in an elite community that I cut Port. I just mentioned Silver Knight and Sea Sprite (which, incidently, I did happen to see over the weekend) because I think you're far more likely to run into pro red dudes than pro back or 4+CC dudes.


Also, as far as double Port/Waste draws go, I tend to think as long as you've got a full sixteen Red sources, you're okay. This is why I only run 6 Waste/Port in 22 Land builds and 7 in 23 landers.

Like I said before, I like to be able to cast my dudes. If they deal with Vial or Lackey (and they will), I don't want to be twiddling my dick tapping their lands. It means I'm busy not winning.


I think the black splash is good but probably a fad!

Soon as green comes up with a way to deal with Tarmagoyf and Belcher/TES, or black a way to deal with Plague, CoP:Red, or whatever other random artifact or enchantment hate, let me know, because then I'll cut a color.

[The Marco]

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....

[Di]

You're on the draw. Your opening hand is Badlands, wasteland, port, mogg fanatic, vial, Ringleader, Warchief, Terminate.

Your opponent leads off with a fetch into a basic island, Brainstorm.

You fail to draw another colored source of mana.

Your opponent plays a trop, then a Tarmagoyf.

How do you kill it?

Silver Knight is a bitch and a half too. So is Sea Sprite. Pro red in general sucks a lot of ass.

Incidently, the example I used above is precisely the reason I cut Port a long time ago too.

How do you kill it? You soak up that 3-4 damage like a man then play it turn 3 so you don't lose to a freaking Daze. Srsly. However given that you don't even run Port, this isn't an issue for you. If you aren't running Port, I see like no reason why Terminate isn't better. Silver Knight, ok. You have Silver Knight. What about my Terminate killing, like, I dunno, everything else?

So wow. I posted in Goblins. Rad.

[Mental]

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....
I might try 3 color if I had all those duals :(
Agreed with Di, otherwise. 3 Damage isn't much at all.

[The Marco]

If you do don't cut the port and don't add to many non-goblins to the deck...if you do this deck will become just another fast aggro deck!

[TeenieBopper]

Wow, I stop playing for two years and people just assume that I"m some complete fucking noob. Nice.


How do you kill it? You soak up that 3-4 damage like a man then play it turn 3 so you don't lose to a freaking Daze. Srsly. However given that you don't even run Port, this isn't an issue for you. If you aren't running Port, I see like no reason why Terminate isn't better. Silver Knight, ok. You have Silver Knight. What about my Terminate killing, like, I dunno, everything else?

So wow. I posted in Goblins. Rad.

Silver Knight really is a serious bitch, especially considering any deck running Silver Knight is also running Jitte and SoFI. It's not easy to play around. Course, you guys are right in that nobody really plays those decks, so I guess it's mostly irrelevant.

I could support Terminate, but my point about Terminate is Waste/Port builds is still valid. You're not going to be able to cast it consistently enough.

[Bovinious]

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....

Dude chill the fuck out, I dont even know TeenieBopper irl but he sounds legit, and unlike you he is making coherent points not being condescending and irrational. I myself have also been playing goblins since Food Chain was a deck in old 1.5, and can tell you that 3 color is definitely worth it and Port isnt as good as it used to be. The only reason I still run Port is because I havnt been getting color-screwed, it definitely is not what it used to be.

On Smother vs. Terminate: The main things I want either to kill are Tarmogoyf, Confidant, Sea Drake, other Goblins, man-lands, if you face the occaisional scrub playing Silver Knight I dont think you really need to worry. For me Smother seems better because it is easier to cast and I cant think of much Terminate kills that I really need to handle and cant via Gempalm.

[GreenOne]

Why Snuff Out is not debated in the Terminate vs Smother?
It has some weaknesses and some pros. The only scary creatures that can't kill are tombstalker and Nantuko shade. The other ones are not so scary (confidant needs just to be pinged, Shadowmage is blue, so you can alpha-strike with piledriver).

The loss of life is not a great problem for gobbos, It doesn't slow your game plan at all and it virtually can't be dazed / counterbalanced.

Thoughts on that?

[Sims]

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....


I'm actually surprised this wasn't modded for being a 1-Liner in the LMF that is very sarcastic and relatively pointless. TB has been playing this deck longer than most people have and knows how to modify a deck to beat what he needs to beat, ontop of probably just outplaying them anyways. As I have no idea who you are and didn't even realize you were a member here until today, what have you contributed to the format lately?

Terminate vs. Smother vs. Snuff Out vs. Your_Removal_spell_of_choice_01:
Personally I would play Smother for reasons of it being easier to cast, because you don't have to leave up 2 colored sources. Pro-Red can be a huge deal if you are running Terminate, but if you're running it knowing there is going to be a lot of Sword and Jitte weilding Silver Ka-Nig-Its, why the hell are you running Terminate? That whole thing should be a metagaming desicion. On a pure vs. the format level though, I don't see many reasons one would be better than the other. They're both pretty even in this format and basically up to your personal preference and metagaming desicions. Far as Snuff Out, it probably would work very well but, I'd actually like the option of being able to realistically hardcast my removal. I can't see many reasons why I'd pass a turn and leave 4 mana up.

[The Marco]

That is typical of some of you veteran on the Source...because I don't have 1000 posts my points are not valid. Agreed that comment was sarcastic and pretty much pointless, but also taken out of context of the whole discussion. It seems that everytime someone has a decent idea and he's not from NY or does not have a 1000 posts, someone one just dismises it (look at the tone in his answers...and your ) with very little support other that this is a bad idea and here is an example of an atypical hand....you are right I don't have that much time to contribute to the format as a whole, I work, I'm finishing my Masters and training in MMA...But I found time to help build a decent player base here in Montr&#233;al, we have bi-weekly tournaments with an excess of 25 players every single time. To me that is much better then being the guy who said to play this card or this one in this deck (I do it only when I have time). By the way I don't know you either, so what does that prove...

Back to the discussion: I agree that the one you choose depens on your meta (I'll give you that), I believe that you have a valid point in saying that they are pretty much even. I guess it depends on the deck (composition as it seems that there are many different lists of goblins these days) you are running. In a extensive mana denial land structure I could see Smother as being easier to cast consistently... is this a tradeoff you are whiling to accept (less consistency)for the added versatility of Terminate. In large tournaments I usually favor versatility if only for the reason of randomness in many decks. If you play a local tournamnet with only very knowledgeable people who all play tier 1 or 1.5 decks I could see you wanting more consistency.

[Sims]

Back to the discussion: I agree that the one you choose depens on your meta (I'll give you that), I believe that you have a valid point in saying that they are pretty much even. I guess it depends on the deck (composition as it seems that there are many different lists of goblins these days) you are running. In a extensive mana denial land structure I could see Smother as being easier to cast consistently... is this a tradeoff you are whiling to accept (less consistency)for the added versatility of Terminate. In large tournaments I usually favor versatility if only for the reason of randomness in many decks. If you play a local tournamnet with only very knowledgeable people who all play tier 1 or 1.5 decks I could see you wanting more consistency.


Versatility is great and I agree that in a large tournament with relatively unknown quantities of randomness, Terminate would likely be a superior option if only for the "Oh Shit" button to axe some really troublesome large creatures in Exalted Angels, Magus of the Tabernacle, Pit Dragons, or BigGreen style critters, as you could usually expect coffee table players to bring their decks. But in most tighter tournies that I know I can expect lots of players bringing the tier 1 or 1.5, I want a card that will be easy and reliable for casting that will kill what I need it to kill: Goyf, Silver Knight, Confidant, etc.. Smother does that. Terminate does too, but I like that Smother is a bit more reliable when it counts.

[The Marco]

I guess we agree on that! In an unknown meta maybee the right call would be to play a split of 2 Terminate and 2 Smother instead of 4 of either in the side!

[erhnamdjinn]

actually the problem with terminate is as the others have mentioned consistency, even with fetches and duals sometimes RB cost is to much, if your really afraid of big fatties terror would be even better to some extent or snuff out. Otherwise gempalm incinerator ussually does the job. This is also one reason I like goblins splash white because STP is the far superior removal spell to all. Only problem I have with white splash is the active Jitte, which green splash is best suited for.

[Shriekmaw]

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....


You really need to take a little breather and watch who you are talking about. I don't know anyone that has played Goblins more than Tenniebopper in this area. I've also played the deck quite a bit, so when Tenniebopper has something to say about the deck, a lot of people just shut up and listen.

The version of the deck that I've run is with 23 lands which includes 4 wastelands and 3 ports. I do not run terminate in the board b/c of the double color mana requirement, this is why smother is superior in the version that I run.

I play splashes of both black and green b/c it gives you tin street main deck and krosan grip in the board in addition to therapies, smother, and thoughtseize if you choose to have that.

I can see cutting port in the main deck if you decide to play more color cards in the main deck, such as smother or therapy. Also, trimming the land count down to 22 sources.

[Mental]

actually the problem with terminate is as the others have mentioned consistency, even with fetches and duals sometimes RB cost is to much, if your really afraid of big fatties terror would be even better to some extent or snuff out. Otherwise gempalm incinerator ussually does the job. This is also one reason I like goblins splash white because STP is the far superior removal spell to all. Only problem I have with white splash is the active Jitte, which green splash is best suited for.

Yeah, active Jitte is close to GG against white splash. That said, I SB Disenchants so it's manageable G2 and 3, though still crappy against decks running countermagic, like Fish and Faerie Stompy. Nonetheless, I think the benefits to being able to play StP outweigh those of being able to play Tin-Street and Krosan Grip.
I do see the problem with Terminate and Smother is probably better, however, I'd actually test snuff out. God knows I don't want to tap out on turn 3 to kill Tarmogoyf. It'd be nice to just be able to kill it, and keep going. But the life loss could be too heavy.

[asdljas]

I think I like the suggestion about EE better than Smother or Terminate. I'll be playtesting that.

Since we're on the subject of colorless mana sources though, what do you guys think about some players running Ancient Tomb to support the higher casting cost of Bogart Mob and Wort? I tried playtesting it the other day and I ended up tapping it 5 freaking times.

EDIT: For the mathematically challenged, that's 10 freaking damage (half of my life total).

[TeenieBopper]

re: Bogart Mob sucks. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=181612&postcount=12)

A singleton/double Wort is fairly easy to support, usually only cutting a SGC. Ancient Tomb really isn't worth it for that.

I have been thinking about a Goblins list with nothing but really high CC goblins (Goon, SGC, Wort, maybe Patron of the Akki), but then I ask myself "why wouldn't I just play Dragon Stompy?"

[Mental]

I think I like the suggestion about EE better than Smother or Terminate. I'll be playtesting that.

Are you shitting me? EE = 1-2 Mana to play, 2 to activate, may kill your guys. Sure, it's mass removal. That's rarely relevant, though. Dies to pithing needle.
Smother/Terminate = Targeted Removal that is efficient and kills Goyf.

[asdljas]

re: Bogart Mob sucks. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=181612&postcount=12)

A singleton/double Wort is fairly easy to support, usually only cutting a SGC. Ancient Tomb really isn't worth it for that.


I think I agree on the Ancient Tomb after seeing it in action during playtesting. I was just wondering why people were running it. With regards to the Bogart Mob, you really don't like it? I find that it's actually bigger than goofy in the Survival matchup (they can't get enough in the yard).

Has anyone tested Smother main?

[Happy Gilmore]

Mob was so awful every time I tested it. But Wort on the other hand was so good I decided to up the number to 2 MD. Its a 3/3 with fear! I really like the list that Jeff did well at the ML3 with the (BG splash), but I was wondering if anyone has tried the BW splash?

Basically running 1 Mirror entity instead of the tin-street MD. With some number of Swords, Chants, and such in the SB.

[Mental]

Mob was so awful every time I tested it. But Wort on the other hand was so good I decided to up the number to 2 MD. Its a 3/3 with fear! I really like the list that Jeff did well at the ML3 with the (BG splash), but I was wondering if anyone has tried the BW splash?

Basically running 1 Mirror entity instead of the tin-street MD. With some number of Swords, Chants, and such in the SB.

I've done the BW splash but the list wasn't entirely optimal. Duress + Thoughtseize in the SB, Crib Swap MD. We didn't have any other splash cards on us, but it worked fine. I went 2-2.

[aTn]

Happy said:
Mob was so awful every time I tested it. But Wort on the other hand was so good I decided to up the number to 2 MD.

Just concluded the same thing after testing.

I don't have an opinion yet on M. Entity other than the idea intrigues me.

Someone suggested Bathe in Light to me yesterday. Seems like a nice SB card vs. Pyroclasm; it can also permit you to go for the killer attack pretty quickly.


Mental said:
I've done the BW splash but the list wasn't entirely optimal. Duress + Thoughtseize in the SB, Crib Swap MD.

Did you like Crib Swap ? On paper it looked good (fetching it with Matron and putting it in your hand with Ringleard), but when I tested it I really disliked it. The casting cost made it a bit slow and countertempoish when I wanted to play it early game and when facing mana denial it was simply annoying. I'd rather keep an uncracked fetch (against LD) and just crack it for Plateau and StoP my target, this while being able to do other stuff during the turn.


-------
Aside
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Nickrit2000 said:
You really need to take a little breather and watch who you are talking about. I don't know anyone that has played Goblins more than Tenniebopper in this area. I've also played the deck quite a bit, so when Tenniebopper has something to say about the deck, a lot of people just shut up and listen.


Nickrit, sorry but when I read this I just had to answer. I'm not saying TheMarco didn't get a bit carried away, but everything in the paragraph you posted can be reversed to target you. You don't know who you're talking to and you also need to take a breather ("a lot of people just shut up and listen" "and watch who you are talking about"). I really dislike intimidation and that seemed like a failed attempt at it (no disrespect to you or Teeniebopper intended).

[Happy Gilmore]

I really like the idea of Mirror entity even if no testing has been done up to this point with it. I like most how it effects the board imediately rather than the following turn regardless if warchief is in play. You can vial him in and turn every creature played so far into a 4/4 on turn 4. It allows you to trade only one of your creatures for a Tarmogoyf when you double block, and you only need 5 mana and 4 creatures to do 20 damage. Plus you can always bring him back with Wort. I also really like Crib Swap.

[TeenieBopper]

Are you shitting me? EE = 1-2 Mana to play, 2 to activate, may kill your guys. Sure, it's mass removal. That's rarely relevant, though. Dies to pithing needle.
Smother/Terminate = Targeted Removal that is efficient and kills Goyf.

Sure, it kills (some of) your dudes, but it also kills EtW tokens, Pithing Needle on Vials (or sharpshooters, or fanatics), CoP:Red, 'goyf, Survival, Jitte, Engineered Plague, etc, all in one card. I'm not saying that I'm going to run it, I'm just saying it kills all the same things Smother and Terminate do, plus stuff.


Has anyone tested Smother main?

I did. I wasn't really impressed or unimpressed with it. It was just there. It was nice to have a real answer to 'goyf in game one, but then again, it really lowered my goblins count (to sub 30, which is rough). If you're in an environment where you absolutely must have it, it's fine. Otherwise, I'd just bring it in from the board. IMO, I'd rather have therapy or thoughtseize main over smother, though.

I'm not sure I like Crib Swap. I mean, a fetchable StP sounds cool and all... except for the fact that it isn't StP. Vialing out a Ringleader, flipping Crib Swap and killing a dude does sound awfully sexy, though.

I'm with aTn on Mirron Entity. It does sound intriguing. Too bad it's white :-/

[GreenOne]

EE kills Pithing Needle on Vials or fanatics

It kills your fanatics and vials too :)

[TeenieBopper]

/shrug

If you actually play out multiple copies of Vial against a Needle naming them, and the opposing deck isn't some sort of Tangle Wire/Smokestack concoction, then you deserve to lose your own Vials.

[GreenOne]

If you actually play out multiple copies of Vial against a Needle naming them, and the opposing deck isn't some sort of Tangle Wire/Smokestack concoction, then you deserve to lose your own Vials.

So, you're playing vial on turn 1, the opponent plays Needle. You play EE on turn 2, strip it on turn 3 and play a new vial on turn 3 (at best)
Well, playing vial on turn 3 after you did nothing that affects the game on turn 2 and 3 doesn't seem a good way to get an edge with an aggro deck...

[asdljas]

Jeff's list from TMLO 3 had two Wort and three SGCs in the main. It seems a little top-heavy, but he did extremely well with it. Note that he played 4 Leyline of the Void in the sideboard (over crypt).

[Bovinious]

Yes Folinus had 3 SGC but just a lone Tin-Street, the only difference between his MD and mine is I run 2 Tin-Street and 4 Gempalm cutting a Piledriver and SGC but I think something like his is damn near standard/optimal, for Rgb at least.

[Mental]

Did you like Crib Swap ? On paper it looked good (fetching it with Matron and putting it in your hand with Ringleard), but when I tested it I really disliked it. The casting cost made it a bit slow and countertempoish when I wanted to play it early game and when facing mana denial it was simply annoying. I'd rather keep an uncracked fetch (against LD) and just crack it for Plateau and StoP my target, this while being able to do other stuff during the turn.
No, I hated it. Really the 3 mana investment isn't worth it; I'd rather have StP in almost every circumstance. I once did the matron trick to kill a Goyf, but if I hadn't had to spend 3 mana on my first 'Swap then the second goyf might have never come down.

[StarHawk]

Hello I don't know If I'm supposed to post her but here goes. I was wondering if I could get help with my vial goblins, I was looking at most of the posts that I could but there are way to many to read them all.

My list is this

Lands-20
8-Mountains
2-Taigas
2-Badlands
4-Wastelands
3-Wooded Foothills
1-Bloodstained Mire
(I'm not quite sure how many lands I'm supposed to be running. I know I need more fetchlands but I don't know how many).

Game Winners-6
4-Goblin Piledriver
2-Siege-Gang Commander

Damage Dealers-8
4-Mogg Fanatic
4-Gempalm Incinerators

Speeder uppers-12
4-Aether Vials
4-Goblin Lackeys
4-Goblin Warchiefs

Searchers/Drawers-8
4-Goblin Matron
4-Goblin Ringleaders

Utility Goblins-6
2-Goblin Tinkerers
2-Tin Street Hooligans
1-Wort, Boggart Auntie
1-Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Side-Board
3-Krosan Grips
4-Smother
4-Cabal Therapys
4-Tormod's Crypt

I only have about $60 left to finish the deck and I'm planning to go to a big tournement with it and I've only been to tournements bigger than 20 only 2 so I don't really know what I'm going to need to do fairly well. Any help would be appreciated or even just direct me were to go.

[Mental]

The manabase should look like:

Lands-24
4-Mountains
3-Taigas
3-Badlands
2-Rishadan Port
4-Wastelands
4-Wooded Foothills
4-Bloodstained Mire

That's what I would run.

[TeenieBopper]

Yeah, pretty much what Mental said, but to elaborate a little:

edit: didn't realize you don't run Port. Your mana base should probably look like this then:

6 Fetch
4 Waste
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
6 Mountain

Cut the two tinkerers for the extra land. Cut the kiki for a third SGC. Consider cutting the second Hooligan for a second Wort.

[Mental]

The sideboard I'm currently running:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Pyrokenisis
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Goblin King

The last tournament I went to saw lots of Thresh, Goblins, some Burn and then MUC, BGW Control (I'm not sure if it was TruffleShuffle), 43lands, TES, and Counterslivers.

What do you think of my sideboard?

[Tacosnape]

I don't think Chalice of the Void in sideboard really does much of anything anymore. Although if both Burn and TES are in your meta, you sort of have to do something, so it might be worthwhile.

Underrated in the Port-Less build's sideboard is Life From The Loam, which will defend you against decks that assault your manabase, allow you Wasteland recursion, and generally let you cruise to Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs in matches you need them most.

[StarHawk]

Thanks I will make the adjustments.

[Mental]

I don't think Chalice of the Void in sideboard really does much of anything anymore. Although if both Burn and TES are in your meta, you sort of have to do something, so it might be worthwhile.

Underrated in the Port-Less build's sideboard is Life From The Loam, which will defend you against decks that assault your manabase, allow you Wasteland recursion, and generally let you cruise to Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs in matches you need them most.

I don't get it. How do I cruise to Ringleaders and SGC when I'm dumping them into my graveyard? What I'm trying to say is a see how it helps, but I also see how it hurts - LFTL recursion seems like a waste of time.

[Shriekmaw]

The sideboard I'm currently running:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Pyrokenisis
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Goblin King

The last tournament I went to saw lots of Thresh, Goblins, some Burn and then MUC, BGW Control (I'm not sure if it was TruffleShuffle), 43lands, TES, and Counterslivers.

What do you think of my sideboard?


The Mana Base that I run in my R/b/g build is as follows:

4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
2 Badlands

The Sideboard which I've been going with:

4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Smother
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

In the main deck I run 2 Wort, 2 SSG, and 1 Tin Street.

[Jak]

You do have Wort for the recursion. So Loam seems like it shouldn't be a terrible card.

[Mental]

You do have Wort for the recursion. So Loam seems like it shouldn't be a terrible card.

True, I guess Loam isn't bad in Wort heavy Rgb builds.

@nick: What is Sharpshooter good against? I ran 1 MD for a while in mono-red gobbos, and it never helped me much, not even in the mirror, because Fanatic pwned it.

[TeenieBopper]

True, I guess Loam isn't bad in Wort heavy Rgb builds.

@nick: What is Sharpshooter good against? I ran 1 MD for a while in mono-red gobbos, and it never helped me much, not even in the mirror, because Fanatic pwned it.

Anything with creatures, basically. It kills mana acceleration, and really messes with combat math. A lot of people argue that it's either situationally awesome, or situationally shitty. I think that's mostly true, except I've never gone "God dammit, this is absolutely the worst card I could've drawn."

[asdljas]

There's no possible way I would agree to Life from the Loam in any Goblin build. Do you know what you do when a deck attacks your manabase? Punch it in the face with Lackey and Piledriver. That's why Pikula's Dead Guy Ale had to run E-plague main deck; land destruction isn't good against Goblins. If you want to recur your Siege-Gang Commander, send him into combat. They'll either kill him or lose.

[Jak]

There's no possible way I would agree to Life from the Loam in any Goblin build. Do you know what you do when a deck attacks your manabase? Punch it in the face with Lackey and Piledriver. That's why Pikula's Dead Guy Ale had to run E-plague main deck; land destruction isn't good against Goblins. If you want to recur your Siege-Gang Commander, send him into combat. They'll either kill him or lose.

I don't think people would play Loam to protect their mana base. It was more so that they could disrupt the opponents with recurrable wastes. It also helps to ensure land drops.

[Tacosnape]

There's no possible way I would agree to Life from the Loam in any Goblin build. Do you know what you do when a deck attacks your manabase? Punch it in the face with Lackey and Piledriver. That's why Pikula's Dead Guy Ale had to run E-plague main deck; land destruction isn't good against Goblins. If you want to recur your Siege-Gang Commander, send him into combat. They'll either kill him or lose.

I completely disagree. As long as you can stop Vial and Lackey, Land destruction crushes Goblins. Goblins' spells are among the most overcosted of any deck in Legacy, and it only gets away with it due to Vial, Lackey, and Warchief. Limit a Goblin deck to two or three lands and no mana accelerants, and you can keep it on the defense until it dies.

Loam gives you a chance to play through things like Smallpox, Devastating Dreams, and even Armageddon and still be in a fair position. Loam is decent in Port-packing builds as well, as it will let you recur a single fetchland to hit your double red for Warchief.

Secondly, as Jak mentioned, that's only one thing Loam does. It also allows Wasteland recursion, which lets you severely punish the daylights out of anything with a bad manabase, or anything relying on manlands (Or annoying things like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale) to beat you.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I completely disagree. As long as you can stop Vial and Lackey, Land destruction crushes Goblins. Goblins' spells are among the most overcosted of any deck in Legacy, and it only gets away with it due to Vial, Lackey, and Warchief. Limit a Goblin deck to two or three lands and no mana accelerants, and you can keep it on the defense until it dies.

QFT.

As a Deadguy player I can attest to the power of land distruction in this matchup. At the EPIC DLD, I won game one against Goblins on the back of Vindicating/Duressing Vials, keeping Lackey off the board and using Sinkhole and Smallpox to keep him off mana.

If a deck can manage Goblin's mana aceleration and pick off a few lands, Goblins is not put in a good position.

[StarHawk]

I don't think Chalice of the Void in sideboard really does much of anything anymore. Although if both Burn and TES are in your meta, you sort of have to do something, so it might be worthwhile.

Underrated in the Port-Less build's sideboard is Life From The Loam, which will defend you against decks that assault your manabase, allow you Wasteland recursion, and generally let you cruise to Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs in matches you need them most.

But if you played life from loam you would have to cut something essential. Wouldn't the best plan be to cut down non basics to a minimum. Only use fetches to search for duels when it's absolutely needed. If extra mana is really needed throw in a couple of Skirk Prospecters. Also your'e more likely ringleader life from loam to bottom of deck than draw it. Also Vial goblins need as much goblins as possible to work sufficiently. As for wasteland lock wouldn't it be better just to try to win as fast as possible.

[Tacosnape]

But if you played life from loam you would have to cut something essential.

Like what? Nobody can agree on anything in Goblins' sideboard beyond Pyrokinesis and Krosan Grip anyway. There seem to be heavily varying opinions on what's essential, per se.

However, seeing as how I run it in straight RG and not RGB, I can see where there would be less slots to work with.


Wouldn't the best plan be to cut down non basics to a minimum. Only use fetches to search for duels when it's absolutely needed. If extra mana is really needed throw in a couple of Skirk Prospecters.

Cutting nonbasics to a minimum is difficult. RGB can't, really. RG can't realistically run more than 6-7 in a non-port build without going under 4 Taiga/8 Fetch. And secondly, even if you hit a fair portion of nonbasic lands, they aren't immune to being destroyed. Sinkhole, Smallpox, Vindicate, Devastating Dreams, Armageddon, and so forth all hit basics.


Also your'e more likely ringleader life from loam to bottom of deck than draw it.

This is almost always mathematically wrong.

You start out drawing 7 cards. After two draw steps, you will have to drop a whopping three Ringleaders to make this statement true. After six draw steps, you'll have to drop all four. After ten, the statement is impossible to be proven true barring Wort recursion, and chances are if your Wort is recurring Ringleaders enough to make this statement true then you're either going to win as a result or are locked down and can't win, and in either of those cases the whole point is irrelevant.


Also Vial goblins need as much goblins as possible to work sufficiently.

Speaking as someone who's played the deck since Legacy began, I'm aware that to a degree, the more Goblins you have the better. However, there's a fine line in here somewhere. In some cases, other cards are necessary. Otherwise we wouldn't be running land, Aether Vial, or any other non-goblin sideboard card. Loam is no more a Goblin than is Pyrokinesis, Tormod's Crypt, Chalice of the Void, Krosan Grip, Thoughtseize, Smother, or anything else.


As for wasteland lock wouldn't it be better just to try to win as fast as possible.

Not always. Very often Goblins doesn't win by being faster than the opponent. It wins by being more inevitable than the opponent and by overwhelming him with more goblins than he can deal with (Loam also assists with this by making you not miss land drops, which allows you to do ridiculously broken shit around turn six or so.)

Loam for Wastelock would be most boarded in against control decks in all probability. I wouldn't, for example, board it in against Threshold, unless they were also putting a significant effort towards wrecking my manabase via Wasteland/Stifle/Force-or-Needle on Vial as well.

[Whit3 Ghost]

It could also be noted that it has synergy with Barbarian Ring as well, for a win condition that can fight through a lot of hate, kill Silver Knights and other pro red creatures, and might be decent in the mirror.

[StarHawk]

Thanks for the clear-up Tacosnape. I'm still new to goblins. But I'm wondering in bigger tournaments than local, how prevalent are LD based decks like stax, dead guy or even decks that play Armageddon. And which prevalent decks would you need life from loam for?

[Whit3 Ghost]

Thanks for the clear-up Tacosnape. I'm still new to goblins. But I'm wondering in bigger tournaments than local, how prevalent are LD based decks like stax, dead guy or even decks that play Armageddon. And which prevalent decks would you need life from loam for?
Personally, I think I'd like it even more as a proactive threat in order to Wastelock decks like Landstill and/or recur Barbarian Ring in the face of Plague/Silver Knight/Aether Flash/ect

[Mental]

Thanks for the clear-up Tacosnape. I'm still new to goblins. But I'm wondering in bigger tournaments than local, how prevalent are LD based decks like stax, dead guy or even decks that play Armageddon. And which prevalent decks would you need life from loam for?

I don't have too much experience, but it varies by meta. For me, there's only 0-1 LD based deck each tournament (43 lands) but it does steamroll me, usually. Manascrew --> Tabernacle = I lose.

[Shriekmaw]

Anything with creatures, basically. It kills mana acceleration, and really messes with combat math. A lot of people argue that it's either situationally awesome, or situationally shitty. I think that's mostly true, except I've never gone "God dammit, this is absolutely the worst card I could've drawn."


Actually, the only reason I do currently have 1 sharpshooter in the board is because in Syracuse Survival tends to be a popular deck. I don't side it in that often but very good against survival and the mirror.

The only innovation that I'm considering is in the sideboard. I believe the main deck is a solid as its going to get.

I'm really happy with the deck, because Vial Goblins is just that damn good.

[Tacosnape]

It could also be noted that it has synergy with Barbarian Ring as well, for a win condition that can fight through a lot of hate, kill Silver Knights and other pro red creatures, and might be decent in the mirror.

That's a completely weird idea. I can't decide whether to bash it or praise it.

I think seeing as how Goblins isn't so prevalent that Silver Knight is still considered a major Legacy staple and that pro-red is well on the decline, Ring might be a bit of a reach, but maybe not depending on your metagame. Plus, anything that Ring can reach through, Siege-Gang Commander can also.

[Whit3 Ghost]

That's a completely weird idea. I can't decide whether to bash it or praise it.

I think seeing as how Goblins isn't so prevalent that Silver Knight is still considered a major Legacy staple and that pro-red is well on the decline, Ring might be a bit of a reach, but maybe not depending on your metagame. Plus, anything that Ring can reach through, Siege-Gang Commander can also.
Thanks (I think), at the very least, it deserves some testing.

As for things that SCG can't win through Plague, Sphere of Law, Cop Red.
My personal list is black splash only, and Rings have won me a few games there without the option of recursion.

Also, at least it's a red source.

[Tacosnape]

Thanks (I think), at the very least, it deserves some testing.

As for things that SCG can't win through Plague, Sphere of Law, Cop Red.
My personal list is black splash only, and Rings have won me a few games there without the option of recursion.

Also, at least it's a red source.

In RB only, how do you expect to recur the rings?

Although in RB only, the rings seem more valuable as you lose the ability to get rid of Plague and such*, which means it could be at its most valuable in your build. Man, I strangely want to try that out now.

(Which is why, for the love of god, I'll never go outside of RG. Or at least not until they make an enchantment-killing version of Tin Street Hooligan.)

[Cait_Sith]

I love RB. I love it to death. The problem is, RB cannot deal with Enchantments. RB has a ton of advantages over RG, but the simple fact that all the nasty anti-goblin Enchantments suddenly become immensely hard to deal with just kills it. If you run RB, you really ought to go for Rgb, in which case you can have a Life or 2 sb if you run Rings (possibly Md, but there is not that much room).

[thefreakaccident]

I have never been what you would call a 'goblin player' but I have picked up the deck from time to time... one thing that I have noticed about the deck as of recently is that while discard is good, it doesn't do anything to a tarmogoyf once it is on the table... this leads me to another train of thought, why not just destroy it?

I have a theoretical list for you guys:

spells//7
3 cribswap
4 aether vial

lands//22
4 wasteland
3 rishidan port
4 plateau
4 wooded foothills
7 mountain

creatures//31
4 goblin warcheif
4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin matron
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin piledriver
4 mogg fanatic
2 seige gang commander
1 kiki-jiki mirror breaker
2 goblin goon
2 gempalm incinerator

Sideboard//
4 disenchant
3 orim's chant (good against combo and a timewalk against other decks)
4 challice of the void
4 tormod's crypt


I was wondering what you guys thought of this approach... the crib swaps can be tutored/leadered as well!

[Tacosnape]

Crib Swap is seriously awful. It's so ridiculously narrow, overcosted, and underpowered that it's completely not worth the fact you can pick it up off Ringleader or Matron. Swords to Plowshares is way better, and I'd even argue that Oblivion Ring's a better choice.

It's in debatably the third best splash color. It costs a whopping 3 mana, meaning it has a 0% chance of clearing the way for a turn 2 Lackey hit, and at three mana you want to be playing Matrons and Warchiefs. It still leaves them a creature to take down a 1-toughness Goblin, and what's even worse? It's tribal, meaning that second Tarmogoyf they drop down is going to be even bigger.

If you're going to run white, run good white cards. Like Swords to Plowshares, which is infinitely better than any other white creature removal spell in any deck that's ever existed, including Goblins.

[StarHawk]

I was wondering about maybe instead of the green splash you could run R/W/B. It would give you no answers to artifact/enchantment main deck but you could run swords in the main and abeyance/orims chant sideboard. I don't know if there's a reason this is'nt already done. But it seems swords would help more than tin street hooligan in the threshold match up. And abeyance/chant would help alot in the combo match-up.

[Media314r8]

Rb does have an aswer to enchantments: (if by enchantments, you mean E-plague) Mad Auntie. I run RB goblins with 1 MB as a tutor target for vial/tutor shenannagins,a nd three +1 king SB, as it really helps against thresh (as most splash mountians) and it's nice to be able to chump/ kill goyfs, and regen shield after damage is assigned to your team block. After boards, black decks have 4 E plagues, you have 5 Aunties/Kings. RB also has a more solid manabase, and I find that I can more reliably fetch basics if I only have three lands than I could in 3 color gobs.

[Tacosnape]

Rb does have an aswer to enchantments: (if by enchantments, you mean E-plague) Mad Auntie. I run RB goblins with 1 MB as a tutor target for vial/tutor shenannagins,a nd three +1 king SB, as it really helps against thresh (as most splash mountians) and it's nice to be able to chump/ kill goyfs, and regen shield after damage is assigned to your team block. After boards, black decks have 4 E plagues, you have 5 Aunties/Kings. RB also has a more solid manabase, and I find that I can more reliably fetch basics if I only have three lands than I could in 3 color gobs.

By enchantments, I meant just that. Enchantments. Plague isn't the only one. Ghostly Prison sees a lot of play, as does Humility. Propaganda and Elephant Grass pop up in a few decks. And the occasional Circle of Protection: Red rears its ugly head when you least expect it. Pernicious Deed eats your board, and Survival of the Fittest grabs a ton of Tarmogoyfs to sit in your way and be obnoxious.


I was wondering about maybe instead of the green splash you could run R/W/B. It would give you no answers to artifact/enchantment main deck but you could run swords in the main and abeyance/orims chant sideboard. I don't know if there's a reason this is'nt already done. But it seems swords would help more than tin street hooligan in the threshold match up. And abeyance/chant would help alot in the combo match-up.

Chant isn't nearly as strong against combo as you think. If you're going to splash black, your combo hate pieces will likely be Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy, as they're also your best bets for pre-emptive enchantment removal.

The only thing splashing both Black and White really gives you is Vindicate (Or EE, but any three-color build can sneak that in). Vindicate's neat in that it's an all-purpose boardable removal spell, leaving you more slots for discard/combo hate, and that it also helps out your land destruction in a pinch. It's not enough to warrant the double splash, in my opinion, but there you go.

[Mental]

I was wondering about maybe instead of the green splash you could run R/W/B. It would give you no answers to artifact/enchantment main deck but you could run swords in the main and abeyance/orims chant sideboard. I don't know if there's a reason this is'nt already done. But it seems swords would help more than tin street hooligan in the threshold match up. And abeyance/chant would help alot in the combo match-up.

I've done this and I must say I didn't love it. I ran 4x Duress and 4x Thoughtseize SB against Thresh, and it worked, but it sucked against everything else. Meh, I'm Rw now, and it's working fine. Seriously, STP is very underrated in Goblins. However, it is worth running a 1 of Badlands just to have access to EE for 3.

[GreenOne]

What about the new changeling spoiled in Morningtide (http://mtgsalvation.com/morningtide-spoiler.html)?

For reference:
Taurean Mauler --- 2R
Creature - Shapeshifter
Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times)
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Taurean Mauler.
2/2

It's a sort of Quirion Driad that works on the opponent spells and it's Red. It could be quite useful vs Thresh but so-so vs control etc..

[zulander]

Why not play rgb? Anwar top 4rd twice here at the frog last two weeks and in testing it's pretty solid. Black for thoughseize/black gobbs and green for goyfs and grip.

[AnwarA101]

I've been working with Goblins lately as a way to fight through my local metagame where Landstill, Thresh, and graveyard combo (Ichorid, Breakfast) seem to be prevalent as well ofcourse Random aggro. I began with Jeff Folinus' list from TML 3, but I saw him get beaten down by ridiculous Tarmogoyfs and I decided to play this -

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Wort
1 Tin-Street
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Aether Vial

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

You'll notice that this deck is virtually Jeff's build with the following change -

-3 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Wort
+4 Tarmogoyf

I haven't missed Piledriver at all and he's a good tutor target if you have to go for the alpha strike. I miss the Wort a bit more, but its also one of the slower creatures in the deck. Tarmogoyf has been very good as it helps me fight Threshold very well as well as other Goyf decks.

[zulander]

Wierd.. if you're going to post the list post the board tech. You guys will be amazed.

[erhnamdjinn]

guys is goblin goon still viable in todays legacy, my meta always has alot of anti goblin hate even if only 2-3 people play, me playing the goblin deck, I also see alot of jitte's and silver knights, which is why im thinking of switching from R/W to R/G because I have a hard time dealing with a active Jitte. I noticed also most goblin builds have only like 3-4 slots that can be interchanged.

[Mental]

guys is goblin goon still viable in todays legacy, my meta always has alot of anti goblin hate even if only 2-3 people play, me playing the goblin deck, I also see alot of jitte's and silver knights, which is why im thinking of switching from R/W to R/G because I have a hard time dealing with a active Jitte. I noticed also most goblin builds have only like 3-4 slots that can be interchanged.

In Rw, Disenchant is generally good enough to deal with Jitte, as decks with counterspells don't tend to play it. And yeah, most goblin builds only have 3-4 spots that can be interchanged. That's because the rest of the deck kicks ass.

For dealing with Silver Knight, the Barbarian Ring tech posted above seems pretty interesting. However, if you're running white, StP should do the trick.

[kicks_422]

guys is goblin goon still viable in todays legacy, my meta always has alot of anti goblin hate even if only 2-3 people play, me playing the goblin deck, I also see alot of jitte's and silver knights, which is why im thinking of switching from R/W to R/G because I have a hard time dealing with a active Jitte. I noticed also most goblin builds have only like 3-4 slots that can be interchanged.

I think RG is more popular and better now because everything that white offers, green has as well (and usually better too)... Disenchant becomes Naturalize/Krosan Grip, and you can also run 2-3 Hooligans MD for those artifacts since the deck's kind of light on 2-drops. I don't think the deck needs removal outside of Incinerator and Fanatic, since your horde of creatures >>> than their creatures (yeah, even Goyfs). Besides, anything with pro-red doesn't do much if he's not wielding a Fork or a SoFI.

[Nihil Credo]

And yet last month the Goblin builds that made Top 8 were:

3 White
2 Black/Green
1 Green/White
1 White/Black
1 Black
1 Green

I'd say StP or Smother is more than worth it in Goblins.

[erhnamdjinn]

I actually went third with a RW build in a recent legacy tourney my only loss coming from a belcher deck,STP is really a gem but I really think Tin street hooligan is a must since Jitte is so active in my meta, god I hate Jitte,Silver Knight and Eng. plague even more than goyf. Oh I despise Nimble mongoose aswell.:tongue:

[Tacosnape]

And yet last month the Goblin builds that made Top 8 were:

3 White
2 Black/Green
1 Green/White
1 White/Black
1 Black
1 Green

I'd say StP or Smother is more than worth it in Goblins.

Actually, without further statistics showing a breakdown of the Goblin builds played, this shows nothing to prove how effective Smother/STP is, merely that Goblins can T8 while running it, which we all knew. Goblins could occasionally T8 running Mishra's War Machine.

[Drossie]

I actually went third with a RW build in a recent legacy tourney my only loss coming from a belcher deck,STP is really a gem but I really think Tin street hooligan is a must since Jitte is so active in my meta, god I hate Jitte,Silver Knight and Eng. plague even more than goyf. Oh I despise Nimble mongoose aswell.:tongue:
What's your build?

[asdljas]

What do you guys think about the list that ran one Mirror Entity to power through 'goyf? It also had STP, Orim's Chant*, and Disenchant in the board.

*I think this is the best anti-combo card; it's even better than Cabal Therapy.

[kicks_422]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the one thing that's still great about the white splash... Mirror Entity. I tried running 4 of him, and it was HOT. He's kinda like a pseudo-Piledriver, speeding things up so much more.

I don't like Orim's Chant now though. I mean, yeah, it's a great anti-combo card, but Storm isn't too popular nowadays, and the combo that's around (Breakfast, Ichorid) doesn't die to it. It's great against Belcher though... But I'd still prefer Chalices/Pillars/combination of both.

[asdljas]

But we're already good against Breakfast/Ichorid, right? I mean, one Mogg Fanatic owns all the Bridge/Dredge portion, and he's great against the Breakfast kids too. We can force both decks into their Game Plan B.

TES is still heavily played here in NY, and I see some Solidarity and Bechler played. I think I saw only one Mirror Entity in the Goblin list I saw, but I would consider four.

For reference, here is the German list:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12204

Also, has anyone tested Dolmen Gate as an answer to blocking Tarmogoyf's?

[erhnamdjinn]

But we're already good against Breakfast/Ichorid, right? I mean, one Mogg Fanatic owns all the Bridge/Dredge portion, and he's great against the Breakfast kids too. We can force both decks into their Game Plan B.

TES is still heavily played here in NY, and I see some Solidarity and Bechler played. I think I saw only one Mirror Entity in the Goblin list I saw, but I would consider four.

For reference, here is the German list:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12204

Also, has anyone tested Dolmen Gate as an answer to blocking Tarmogoyf's?

to bad dolmens gate only works on the offensive, I played mirror entity in my build and felt it was just a win more card not once did it actually help me win the game and I had it as a one of.

[Tacosnape]

I fail to see why Orim's Chant is regarded as a decent anti-combo card. It's not outside of Combo Decks, which can use it doubly as an anti-combo card and an anti-disruption card.

First of all, Goblins is not a deck that's willing to keep mana open defensively. Goblins is a deck that puts pressure on the opponents. Your combo pieces should either be A. Free, or B. Proactive. Orim's Chant is neither one.

Secondly, let's look at the combo decks nowadays.

1. Cephalid Breakfast. Chant's entire use here is stopping Abeyance, so Crypt or Fanatic can muck up the rest of the combo. Decent.

2. Ichorid. Buys you an overpriced Fog if you spend the mana for the kicker. Terrible.

3. TES/Iggy/Storm Combo. Can shut them down, but most of the time these decks pack Chant/Abeyance of their own, leaving you much in the same situation of having to trade Chant-For-Chant. These decks also may go off turn two, meaning that when you're on the draw you might have to decide between playing a turn one Lackey and risking death, or holding back for Chant and risking not having enough speed to win. Still, decent.

4. Burn. Chant stops a Suspended Rift Bolt. Goopity-freaking-goo. Terrible.

5. Aluren. They either go off next turn, go off in response to your chant, or Force your Chant. Might work if completely unexpected. Sub-par.

6. Belcher. Probably Chant's best showing, but only consistently useful if you're going first due to Belcher's propensity to do whatever it's going to do on the first turn more often than not. Decent.

7. Solidarity. Fold Orim's Chant into a paper airplane and throw it into the air as an offering to the God of the Stack in fervent prayer that he bestows a ray of stupidity upon your opponent. Can help if you already get fast pressure, though. Sub-par.

Get the point? Chant sucks in Goblins.

EDIT:

@ Dolmen Gate: I like this card. If my meta had more creatures, I'd play around with it. It's pretty strong against Tarmogoyf and anything with creatures, period. It lets you blindly swing in against anything and use Piledrivers essentially as reuseable removal spells.

[asdljas]

Tacosnape,
I agree with most of your analysis. I like the breakdown, although I don't consider burn a "combo" deck persay, or even a good deck. I also think that the Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid matchups are better served with just plain mogg fanatics. I guess I'm really looking for an answer to TES/Iggy/Storm Combo and Solidarity. I agree that Chant is terrible against Solidarity.

I was using Thorn of Amethyst, but it seems too slow against TES and Belcher. Also, most combo decks have a way to just bounce it, so I wasted my turn. I like Cabal Therapy, but I often name the wrong card or I don't hit enough cards, and they just win through it.

Does anyone have test results from Dolmen Gate? Can I swing into 'goyfs with it, or is it a wasted drop? Also, what do you think the right number is?

[kicks_422]

Against those, i still have to say Chalice is a good choice, dropping it at 0 in the first turn against TES/Belcher - unless they go Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, brokenness. As for Solidarity, really the only way you can go against that is race them. Probably REB's out of the board, but they don't really help much against anything else.

@ernhamdjinn: Maybe Mirror Entity didn't help you much because you were only running 1? I've been trying 4 in the MD (22 land, 4 Vial, 34 Goblins), and it's sped up the kill at least a turn. There's really no point in keeping mana open for your opponent's turn anyway.

EDIT: Chalice is also really good against Burn, for all that's worth.

[Mental]

I'll test Mirror Entity once I pick up 2...which I think looks right. That card looks freakishly powerful.

Chalice seems better at 1 than at 0 even against things like TES. Thoughts?

[kicks_422]

Against storm combo, I usually drop the first Chalice at 0, to cut the artifact accel (LED, Chrome Mox, Petal). Besides, if you wait until you drop your second land to cast that Chalice for 1, it might already be too late, especially on the draw.

Like I said, the combo player still has that chance to combo off even without the artifacts, but in a deck like this, I think proactive answers >> reactive ones.

[Mental]

Against storm combo, I usually drop the first Chalice at 0, to cut the artifact accel (LED, Chrome Mox, Petal). Besides, if you wait until you drop your second land to cast that Chalice for 1, it might already be too late, especially on the draw.

Like I said, the combo player still has that chance to combo off even without the artifacts, but in a deck like this, I think proactive answers >> reactive ones.

I've never found it to be enough set at 0. Also, I've only been combod out T1 once.

CHALICE at 0 hoses:
LED
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
CHALICE at 1 hoses:
Dark Ritual
Brainstorm
Chain of Vapor
Rite of Flame?
Ponder

Damn, that's not as extensive of a list as I thought. Chalice at 0 is probably the way to go.

[kicks_422]

Yup, told you. Also consider the fact that their 0cc spells are much more important to them. Follow up the Chalice for 0 with a Lackey and a Chalice for 1, and you've just won the game.

[TeenieBopper]

Step one: Therapy for LED

Step two: Cast Chalice for one.

Step three: ???

Step four: win.

[Bovinious]

Step one: Therapy for LED

Step two: Cast Chalice for one.

Step three: ???

Step four: win.

You got it wrong its PROFIT!!! not win...and usually theres only 3 steps too.

[kicks_422]

You got it wrong its PROFIT!!!.

WTH?!

EDIT: I'm guessing you'll be dropping that Chalice according to whatever you see after you Therapy, right?...

[Tacosnape]

Yup, told you. Also consider the fact that their 0cc spells are much more important to them. Follow up the Chalice for 0 with a Lackey and a Chalice for 1, and you've just won the game.

Yeah, if you draw two on your opening hand.

I just take the loss against TES/Iggy. Four Chalices isn't going to ever be enough. You probably lose game one, and you'll need some godly draws to pull off the next two based strictly on Chalice of the Void. You can set it to zero, but you'll be lucky to buy yourself more than 2 turns by doing so. You can set it to 1, but you won't buy much more and they might go off before you get it set to 0.

[BreathWeapon]

I fail to see why Orim's Chant is regarded as a decent anti-combo card. It's not outside of Combo Decks, which can use it doubly as an anti-combo card and an anti-disruption card.

First of all, Goblins is not a deck that's willing to keep mana open defensively. Goblins is a deck that puts pressure on the opponents. Your combo pieces should either be A. Free, or B. Proactive. Orim's Chant is neither one.

3. TES/Iggy/Storm Combo. Can shut them down, but most of the time these decks pack Chant/Abeyance of their own, leaving you much in the same situation of having to trade Chant-For-Chant. These decks also may go off turn two, meaning that when you're on the draw you might have to decide between playing a turn one Lackey and risking death, or holding back for Chant and risking not having enough speed to win. Still, decent.



I've lost a match to Orim's Chant with TES, IRL, I've never lost a match to Chalice of the Void with TES, IRL. The difference is that Orim's Chant has surprise value, and not just surprise value, but the "Oh shit, I just Mind Twisted myself" kind of surprise value. You're assuming that TES knows you have Orim's Chant, has Orim's Chant and leaves the mana open to cast Orim's Chant, and that's just not how things work out IRL.

Cards that instantly win the combo match up, be it Orim's Chant or Leyline of the Void etc, have a lot of value when their used against "conventional wisdom." Goblins is a deck that isn't designed to hold open W, which is why Orim's Chant works the first time and gives the opponent "the fear" the second time, "it's not suppose to do that."

It may or may not be a card worth running, personally I'd just sand bag the Storm match up and be done with it, but if you don't want to do that, then Orim's Chant is one of the better choices. It's even better with Chalice of the Void, because if the opponent digs for Orim's Chant then it buys you time to top deck a free disruption piece while mounting pressure.

[Emerald]

Step one: Therapy for LED

Step two: Cast Chalice for one.

Step three: ???

Step four: win.

Isn't it generally better to play duress/seize instead of therapy?
I mean, if the opponent has no LEDs, therapy does nothing.
With duress/seize, you can at least discard another card.
Therapy is only better if he got 2 LEDs, which I think is not
often the case.

[Tacosnape]

I've lost a match to Orim's Chant with TES, IRL, I've never lost a match to Chalice of the Void with TES, IRL. The difference is that Orim's Chant has surprise value, and not just surprise value, but the "Oh shit, I just Mind Twisted myself" kind of surprise value. You're assuming that TES knows you have Orim's Chant, has Orim's Chant and leaves the mana open to cast Orim's Chant, and that's just not how things work out IRL.

The problem with your theory is this. If you catch them by surprise on Game 2 and win as a result, now the game standings are 1-1, assuming you lost game one like normal. Now, TES is going first, they know you have Orim's Chant, and they can easily play around it.

Orim's Chant can randomly win you a TES match. Big deal. So can Chalice of the Void. So can Goblin Lackey and a Wasteland, if you're incredibly lucky. None of these make the match winnable enough to warrant the slots. At least Chalice is a little more versatile, though I don't think it's worth running by any means either.


It may or may not be a card worth running, personally I'd just sand bag the Storm match up and be done with it, but if you don't want to do that, then Orim's Chant is one of the better choices. It's even better with Chalice of the Void, because if the opponent digs for Orim's Chant then it buys you time to top deck a free disruption piece while mounting pressure.

Just because a card is decent against one deck, and that deck isn't even one of the five most played in the format, doesn't make it worth including in your sideboard. And it certainly doesn't justify splashing White, as has been said earlier.

[erhnamdjinn]

I think the best deck to run against combo is only either Chalice, Thorn of the amethyst or Pyrostatic pillar.

[Tacosnape]

Pyrostatic Pillar kind of blows. It's debatably worse than Orim's Chant.

Chalice and Thorn are probably the best options for all-purpose combo hate, excluding a barrage of Thoughtseize/Therapy/Duress (My R/B Build maindecks 4 Seizes and boards 4 Therapy/3 Duress to decent success.) The other option is to go for cards that hate on certain combo decks but not others, such as Crypt, Needle, etc.

[erhnamdjinn]

well everything is all debatable really because the goblin build has very little room to move around if you sideboard to much you dillute your creature base to much that your Ringleader draws dont get you goblins at all. So it all really depends on your meta, if you expect charbelcher meta, than chalice and thorn should do, if its storm based decks pyrostatic and thorn should be good.

BTW: If you were to fight thresh should you side in COTV and set it to 1 or 2 to nerf tarmo and mongoose, aswell as brainstorm and ponders? Or should you just nuke the yard with Tormonds?

[Osse]

Set it to 1, turns off pretty much everything. Top, Swords, Bolt, Thoughtseize, Ghastly Demise, Goose, Ponder, Brainstorm, Spell Snare. You can trade with goyf when you go Alpha, Stp kinda stops that though, so yeah. Set it to 1.

[TeenieBopper]

well everything is all debatable really because the goblin build has very little room to move around if you sideboard to much you dillute your creature base to much that your Ringleader draws dont get you goblins at all. So it all really depends on your meta, if you expect charbelcher meta, than chalice and thorn should do, if its storm based decks pyrostatic and thorn should be good.


You know, against combo, the least of your concerns is how many goblins you get off Ringleader.

[kirdape3]

What's your goal in the combo match? If it's to kill the opponent as expeditiously as possible, Pillar's actually awesome at doing so to Storm-based opponents. If it's to play an aggro-control strategy, you want to have REBs, Chalices, Thorns, and other disruption.

[Mental]

I love that I have no idea what the combo match up is since every combo player in my area sucks. This allows me to have a fair chance against them.
CotV should be in the sideboard, however, just because of what it does to Thresh. Seriously, if it resolves, it's rediculous.
About Orim's Chant: If my meta was TES heavy, I'd run it SB. It just screws them when they're going off...there's no two ways about it.

[asdljas]

Does Chalice really help to win the Thresh matchup? I found that Thorn of Amethyst is decent, but it doesn't help enough against that match. Also, I absolutely hate CotV against combo. I play belcher, and win right through Chalice @0, since all my 0cc spells still storm me up for Empty the Warrens, and I can use other spells to accel into the mana. Chalice really doesn't help there.

[Tacosnape]

I don't personally think Chalice is all that ungodly in the Thresh matchup.

You can't get it down before your second turn. It's vulnerable to the heavily played Spell Snare, although Threshold may very well board this out against you until they realize you play Chalice. It's vulnerable to Daze if you want it out before turn three. It doesn't stop Tarmogoyf, Predict, Force, or Daze. And they can drop Mongoose before it hits.

It is, however, worth boarding in against Thresh if you have it. Despite all those drawbacks, it's solid if it sticks.

[asdljas]

Okay, so here is a sideboard list for R/g/b goblins. Note that I play one Tin-Street Hooligan and two Wort, Bogart Auntie in the main.

Sideboard
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Terminate

PS: I still need some advice on the Dolmen Gate.

[Shriekmaw]

Okay, so here is a sideboard list for R/g/b goblins. Note that I play one Tin-Street Hooligan and two Wort, Bogart Auntie in the main.

Sideboard
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Terminate

PS: I still need some advice on the Dolmen Gate.


If your going to play R/g/b Goblins, I would suggest the following changes.

I would cut the 1 Bogart Auntie in the main deck because frankly I just didn't find it that useful for the most part. I would rather almost in all cases have it being another seize-gang commander.

As for the board, I would cut Chalice in the favor of Pyrostatic Pillar, and Terminate for Smother. I main issue I have with terminate is that it requires 2 color sources to use which is why smother is better in the 3 color version of Goblins.

I would suggest cutting 1 Krosan Grip for a Sharpshooter in the board as it does come in handy in a few matchups.

Let me know what you think. Take Care.

[Mental]

If your going to play R/g/b Goblins, I would suggest the following changes.

I would cut the 1 Bogart Auntie in the main deck because frankly I just didn't find it that useful for the most part. I would rather almost in all cases have it being another seize-gang commander.

As for the board, I would cut Chalice in the favor of Pyrostatic Pillar, and Terminate for Smother. I main issue I have with terminate is that it requires 2 color sources to use which is why smother is better in the 3 color version of Goblins.

I would suggest cutting 1 Krosan Grip for a Sharpshooter in the board as it does come in handy in a few matchups.

Let me know what you think. Take Care.

1) Sharpshooter never did me much good. It's ok in the mirror, but it's mana cost is annoying -- by the time it comes down, Lackey has already done its work. Maybe a Tin-Street is better because it owns in the mirror, which is what I assume you want Sharpshooter for.
2) Don't cut Chalice for Pyrostatic Pillar. TES can EASILY go off through it, and Thresh also doesn't give a flying fuck about the card. It's just useless.
3) Run 3 Pyrokinesis over 3 Terminate. It's sooo good in the mirror, and isn't even bad against Thresh.

[xLupotehwolfx]

what would your sb look like for the RW Vial Goblins lists out there, for a generally unknown meta?

my meta has been running a lot of stax lately, how horrible is it to be considering serenity?

[Tacosnape]

what would your sb look like for the RW Vial Goblins lists out there, for a generally unknown meta?

my meta has been running a lot of stax lately, how horrible is it to be considering serenity?

Serenity's a metagame call. I always keep a playset in my sideboard option box for other decks, but when my Goblin deck was RW I ran them in board on occasion.

They give you fighting chances against Enchantress, Stax, and they rape Affinity (Especially when combined with Pyrokinesis.) They're also good against a double plague.

They suck, however, when you just need to get rid of one thing, like a Jitte or a Deed or whatnot. You'll blow up your Vials in the process, and you give your opponent a chance to get rid of it.

[Amon Amarth]

Has anyone considered MD Price of Progress as a foil to the emerging polychromatic decks? Limited testing has shown that its pretty damn good. 2 mana for anywhere from 4 to 8 damage is... solid. At the very least it WTFPWNS 42 Lands.

[kicks_422]

And then add in Lightning Bolts, Goblin Grenades, Fireblast, etc. to turn it into Goblin Sligh. Besides, most of the decks that rely on having lots of nonbasics in play are already good MU's.

[Amon Amarth]

And then add in Lightning Bolts, Goblin Grenades, Fireblast, etc. to turn it into Goblin Sligh. Besides, most of the decks that rely on having lots of nonbasics in play are already good MU's.

Would you say that any Loam variant is a good matchup? What about Landstill? Ancient Tomb decks? There are numerous decks out there where PoP is going to be good. It doesn't need to deal 12+ damage everytime. I'm fine with dealing 6 damage and ending a close game.

Price of Progress has a ridiculous mana to damage ratio that no other burn spell in the game can match. At instant speed to boot. It's a must counter against many decks and I have found it to be far better than the random Goblins I replaced it with.

[Mental]

Would you say that any Loam variant is a good matchup? What about Landstill? Ancient Tomb decks? There are numerous decks out there where PoP is going to be good. It doesn't need to deal 12+ damage everytime. I'm fine with dealing 6 damage and ending a close game.

Price of Progress has a ridiculous mana to damage ratio that no other burn spell in the game can match. At instant speed to boot. It's a must counter against many decks and I have found it to be far better than the random Goblins I replaced it with.

I guess I could see it in the SB, but Maindecked?
I've been interested in putting burn in Goblins for a while, as I've seen what burn/goyf sligh has done to my meta. It's dominated for the past 2 tournaments, at least. Other goblins players I know MB Pyrokinesis, which has worked pretty well for them.

[Happy Gilmore]

I love that I have no idea what the combo match up is since every combo player in my area sucks. This allows me to have a fair chance against them.
CotV should be in the sideboard, however, just because of what it does to Thresh. Seriously, if it resolves, it's rediculous.
About Orim's Chant: If my meta was TES heavy, I'd run it SB. It just screws them when they're going off...there's no two ways about it.

Chalice is only really good against every non-UGr variant, Grip tends to be slow to stop the chalice, but ancient grudge is incredible because it stops Vial (the main threat) and chalice at the same time. UGr thresh is such a bad matchup post board it is not even funny. There is only one build of goblins that I think could beat UGr post board that I know of. Every other build of goblins was a strongly in thresh's favor. Although Chalice does improve your chances by upping the # of threats they have to deal with.

[paragon22]

I noticed some of the Goblin decks from Worlds ran 2x Tarfire. I haven't tested it much yet, but do you think it's a good idea?

Pros: It can be drawn with Ringleader and searched for with Matron.
Cons: Pumps Goyfs, takes up two slots that could instead be more Goblin creatures.

[Tacosnape]

I noticed some of the Goblin decks from Worlds ran 2x Tarfire. I haven't tested it much yet, but do you think it's a good idea?

Pros: It can be drawn with Ringleader and searched for with Matron.
Cons: Pumps Goyfs, takes up two slots that could instead be more Goblin creatures.

What exactly would we want to hit with Tarfire that we couldn't already hit with Mogg Fanatic? You'd need a creature with an exact toughness of 2, and everything with a toughness 2 that Tarfire kills is pretty much bad against Goblins anyway.

The theory is probably increasing Lackey connections, but meh that. I don't care if you can tutor for it or not. Shock is still a bad card.

[EternalDragon09]

meddling mage, dark confidant, mother of runes.... do i need 2 continue alot of popular legacy decks run at least one of those so tarfire seems pretty good especially considering the fact that its very versitle unlike gempalm incinerator.

btw what r ppls thoughts on mirror entity he seems decent but not fast enough to be ran md?

[Shriekmaw]

meddling mage, dark confidant, mother of runes.... do i need 2 continue alot of popular legacy decks run at least one of those so tarfire seems pretty good especially considering the fact that its very versitle unlike gempalm incinerator.

btw what r ppls thoughts on mirror entity he seems decent but not fast enough to be ran md?


I'm not sure where you get that Tarfire is more versatile then Gempalm Incinerator. Gempalm takes care of just about any creature in the format. Multiple damage, that can't be countered and you draw a card. Wow, that seems pretty good to me. I would never even consider tarfire in Legacy Goblins, there are just better choices out there.

I do not believe in running any less than 4 Gempalms in Goblins as of right now or ever.

I like the Goblins build of R/b/g because it has answers to not only plague, but gives you a decent shot of winning against combo which was one of those matchups that you didn't want to face.

[Tacosnape]

Mirror Entity is only good if you have a Vial in play or several creatures on turn 10+. And if you have a Vial in play, you're usually doing okay anyway. All Entity does is break stalemates. Gempalm Incinerator does this also, niftily enough.

Mirror Entity can save your ass from Pyroclasm against UGR Threshold, however (If they don't Stifle it.)

[EternalDragon09]

I'm not sure where you get that Tarfire is more versatile then Gempalm Incinerator. Gempalm takes care of just about any creature in the format. Multiple damage, that can't be countered and you draw a card. Wow, that seems pretty good to me. I would never even consider tarfire in Legacy Goblins, there are just better choices out there.

I do not believe in running any less than 4 Gempalms in Goblins as of right now or ever.

I like the Goblins build of R/b/g because it has answers to not only plague, but gives you a decent shot of winning against combo which was one of those matchups that you didn't want to face.

ok so i think that 4 incinerator are very good but still tarfire can go 2 the dome or a guy confidant or mom 2 guys that get really annoying and its just a shock that i rip off ringleader i mean its ok?? b/g/r goblins is very powerful u get tranquil domain and therapy btw thorn of amythest is phenominal!!!!

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-PR

[264505]

Anyone have a good brg list?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

ok so i think that 4 incinerator are very good but still tarfire can go 2 the dome or a guy confidant or mom 2 guys that get really annoying and its just a shock that i rip off ringleader i mean its ok?? b/g/r goblins is very powerful u get tranquil domain and therapy btw thorn of amythest is phenominal!!!!

[/i]

The biggest point against Tarfire right now is that it pumps Tarmogoyf, a card that most Goblins builds don't run and which gives Goblins a great deal of trouble overall. The fact that it's an uncommon card type (tribal) means it will help to push Tarmogoyf out of range of your removal for some time. The only real advantage that I see with Tarfire is that you can tutor it up with Matron, but that doesn't outweigh its positive effect on your opponent.