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Shimster
12-24-2007, 10:04 AM
Anyone have a good brg list?
I'm currently running the following list in my local meta, which is packed with ayb.ridfish, ayb.aseruption and several Thresh-type decks.

// Lands (22)
5 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Rishadan Port

// Creatures (30)
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin King
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells (8)
4 AEther Vial
4 Smother

// Sideboard (15)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Blood Moon
4 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives

Wort is amazing in games against Tarmogoyfs, since she fears the ugly bastard and recurs Mogg Fanatics. Wort + Incinerator is a nice drawengine, too. :laugh:

Tacosnape
12-24-2007, 05:05 PM
Green without T.S. Hooligan and just for Krosan Grip and EE seems like a waste to me. I'd rather make the grips Thoughtseizes, improve my combo matchup, improve my ability to handle Tarmogoyf, and stabilize my manabase.

Bovinious
12-24-2007, 09:50 PM
Yeah if you were going to go Rb, but I think Rgb with Hooligan/Wort MD and Grip/Therapy/EE SB is probably best.

Mental
12-24-2007, 10:39 PM
What does everyone think of Extipirate in the Rb SB to combat thresh? Many builds of thresh only have access to green mana from Trops. Therefore, Wasteland + Extipirate = I win the game.

EternalDragon09
12-24-2007, 10:45 PM
The biggest point against Tarfire right now is that it pumps Tarmogoyf, a card that most Goblins builds don't run and which gives Goblins a great deal of trouble overall. The fact that it's an uncommon card type (tribal) means it will help to push Tarmogoyf out of range of your removal for some time. The only real advantage that I see with Tarfire is that you can tutor it up with Matron, but that doesn't outweigh its positive effect on your opponent.

Ok then aside from adding an additional Gempalm Incinerator what two other cards should i replace the two Tarfire with, in a RG version??

Tacosnape
12-24-2007, 11:20 PM
What does everyone think of Extipirate in the Rb SB to combat thresh? Many builds of thresh only have access to green mana from Trops. Therefore, Wasteland + Extipirate = I win the game.

This is a highly gimmicky two-card combo. Extirpate is terrible in aggro decks, and Vial Goblins is no exception. This is only useful in your scenario if you draw both Wasteland and Extirpate, if they don't Stifle your Wasteland, if they don't Counterbalance your Extirpate, and if they somehow miraculously don't already have a Tarmogoyf out by the time you pull this off.

EDIT: If you aren't running black and are staying R/G, Goblin Grenade is one of the best Tarmogoyf-slaying options against Threshold out there. Goyfs in the first several turns are very often no larger than 4/5 (Occasionally they're 5/6 if you lose a Vial, but never 6/7 due to neither deck putting Enchantments in the yard.) Better still, Grenade isn't counterable via Snare, easily dodges Daze, and Threshold generally doesn't bring in / boards out Counterbalance against Goblins. Grenade is also fantastic against BGW PT Junk-style decks packing both Tarmogoyf and the ever Goblin-eating Doran, The Siege Tower.

Eldariel
12-25-2007, 12:19 AM
Also remember that many Thresh-builds run a Breeding Pool or a Forest to counteract losing all their Trops, which just makes it poor economy. Extirpate isn't worthless, but the slot you should play it at is graveyard hate. It's handy against Ichorid (removing...dunno, Ichorids? Can also attack the engine), Cephfast (kill one guy, win), and it has merit against Iggy, TES and other storm-combo (in varying amounts, though, but it tends to be better than additional Joblins doing nothing in those MUs especially if your plan against combo is discard to start with).

Nihil Credo
12-25-2007, 06:57 AM
I'd rather use Leyline of the Void as graveyard hate in Goblins, or even Planar Void. Proactive hate is better when your deck has a fast clock and likes to use all its mana every turn.

Shriekmaw
12-25-2007, 02:10 PM
// Lands (22)
5 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Rishadan Port

// Creatures (30)
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin King
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells (8)
4 AEther Vial
4 Smother

// Sideboard (15)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Blood Moon
4 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives




I think main deck smother is fine if your expecting a lot of aggressive decks in your meta game, but I prefer more utility creatures.

My build:

+ 1 Tin Street Hooligan
+ 1 Seige-Gang Commander
+ 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
+ 1 Gempalm Incinerator
+ 1 Land
- 4 Smother
- 1 Goblin King

The only creature I really dislike is Goblin King, I don't believe there is a reason to play this card now. I rather run a second seige-gang or Wort over it.

My current SB:

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Smother
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
4 Cabal Thearpy

One last point, since this deck is very mana intensive, I'm a big advocate for running 23 lands in Goblins. I believe this is the correct number after a lot of playtesting and tournament play.

Shawon
12-25-2007, 06:45 PM
Snuff Out, anyone? 4B, dodges Counterbalance?

xsockmonkeyx
12-25-2007, 07:09 PM
Snuff Out, anyone? 3B, dodges Counterbalance?

Fixt.

Shawon
12-25-2007, 10:11 PM
Oops. Well, it still dodges CB better than Smother et al. And Daze.

paragon22
01-02-2008, 12:37 PM
There's a pretty cool spoiled card from mtgsalvation:

Mutavault
Land (R)
Tap: Add :1: to your mana pool
:1:: Mutavault becomes a 2/2 Creature with all creature types until end of turn. It's still a land.

Does this have a place in Goblins? Personally I don't think it does, since you'll have to give up some of your land disruption to fit this. Plus the fact that it becomes a Goblin isn't that relevant, since the only thing that really does is boost Piledriver. Also you can't tutor for it, draw it with Ringleader, or bring it into play with Lackey.

galeng
01-02-2008, 12:49 PM
It doesn't because it will screw up your mana base if your'e already running 4 wasteland and 4 rishadan port.

If your'e not running those, you really should be.
If you insist on not running them, i hope I'm matched with you in a tourney for a free win.

In conclusion, no it doesn't deserve a slot.

GreenOne
01-02-2008, 02:55 PM
It probably will do, but in Extended.

TeenieBopper
01-02-2008, 04:24 PM
It doesn't because it will screw up your mana base if your'e already running 4 wasteland and 4 rishadan port.

If your'e not running those, you really should be.
If you insist on not running them, i hope I'm matched with you in a tourney for a free win.

In conclusion, no it doesn't deserve a slot.

I hate to bring this up again, but Rishadan Port is not an auto-include anymore. I cut the card months ago and haven't missed it at all. Here's the time line of how things happened:

Legacy is born. Solidarity, Goblins, Landstill are considered to be the top tier. Rifter, Survival, Thresh, other aggro strategies considered 1.5 or lower.

Goblins and Landstill is about 50/50. Landstill adds humility after seeing how retarded it is in Rifter. Landstill's match-up against Goblins moves to like 70/30.

Rishadan Port is added to Goblins (I'm flexing my epeen and taking credit for this, btw) to stop Landstill from reaching double white to cast humility. Goblins doesn't fear Wrath of God. It's never feared Wrath of God, not with what amounts to 10-12 Ringleaders (4 Ringleader, 4 Matron, 2-4 SGC which might as well be Ringleader). It's always, always, always been Humility. Port moves the match-up back into Goblins' favor.

Other decks develop . Goblins maintains its dominance, largely due to mana cheats like Lackey and Vial, but the other decks are devising strategies to combat it (read: Tarmagoyf is printed). Landstill also adapts, cutting Humility.

Rishadan Port is not a "winning" card. It's a "not losing" card. Goblins is a "winning" deck. It just happened to be able to support Rishadan Port because it had 8 other ways of advancing it's strategy without using mana. Nearly every deck has measures against Lackey and Vial, and they're not as reliable as they used to be. Now Goblins has to, you know, pay mana for its spells. It can't waste time twiddling its dick in an attempt to stop a card that isn't even there anymore. On top of that, there are threats that are more effective against Goblins than Humility, that cost half as much (Tarmagoyf). Basically, it comes down to this: Goblins needs to be using its mana now. On real things. Tapping an opponents land isn't one of those. Port also has the serious downside of not adding read mana, making it even more difficult to cast key spells (Goblin Warchief). Oh yeah, and nothing, nothing sucks more than looking at a rediculous starting hand with the three mana sources being colorless. Not even Vial fixes that.

TL;DR version: Rishadan Port sucks. Don't run it.

edit: Mutavault sucks too. Don't run it.

georgjorge
01-02-2008, 05:34 PM
OMG if MtgSalvation is right on this one...

Frogtosser Banneret 1B
Goblin Rogue

Haste
Goblin and Rogue Spells you play cost 1 less to play.

1/1

Is that a good (if not very good) goblin for TWO MANA i see here ?

Tacosnape
01-02-2008, 06:03 PM
That is a pretty good Goblin with a couple drawbacks.

1. It's black. However, if anything finally makes straight R/B Goblins decent, this might be the little guy who does it. He could take Tin-Street Hooligan's slot pretty easily in a fast Green-to-Black conversion.

2. It's not quite as good as Goblin Warchief, as it doesn't give other Goblins haste.

That said, shrinking costs of Goblins is very very good.

xsockmonkeyx
01-02-2008, 06:24 PM
OMG if MtgSalvation is right on this one...

Frogtosser Banneret 1B
Goblin Rogue

Haste
Goblin and Rogue Spells you play cost 1 less to play.

1/1

Is that a good (if not very good) goblin for TWO MANA i see here ?

Wow, finally a solid 2 drop to compliment Piledriver. If nothing else he makes the curve of Rb goblins smoother. Seems like a pretty decent card IMO.

galeng
01-02-2008, 07:08 PM
I hate to bring this up again, but Rishadan Port is not an auto-include anymore. I cut the card months ago and haven't missed it at all. Here's the time line of how things happened:

Legacy is born. Solidarity, Goblins, Landstill are considered to be the top tier. Rifter, Survival, Thresh, other aggro strategies considered 1.5 or lower.

Goblins and Landstill is about 50/50. Landstill adds humility after seeing how retarded it is in Rifter. Landstill's match-up against Goblins moves to like 70/30.

Rishadan Port is added to Goblins (I'm flexing my epeen and taking credit for this, btw) to stop Landstill from reaching double white to cast humility. Goblins doesn't fear Wrath of God. It's never feared Wrath of God, not with what amounts to 10-12 Ringleaders (4 Ringleader, 4 Matron, 2-4 SGC which might as well be Ringleader). It's always, always, always been Humility. Port moves the match-up back into Goblins' favor.

Other decks develop . Goblins maintains its dominance, largely due to mana cheats like Lackey and Vial, but the other decks are devising strategies to combat it (read: Tarmagoyf is printed). Landstill also adapts, cutting Humility.

Rishadan Port is not a "winning" card. It's a "not losing" card. Goblins is a "winning" deck. It just happened to be able to support Rishadan Port because it had 8 other ways of advancing it's strategy without using mana. Nearly every deck has measures against Lackey and Vial, and they're not as reliable as they used to be. Now Goblins has to, you know, pay mana for its spells. It can't waste time twiddling its dick in an attempt to stop a card that isn't even there anymore. On top of that, there are threats that are more effective against Goblins than Humility, that cost half as much (Tarmagoyf). Basically, it comes down to this: Goblins needs to be using its mana now. On real things. Tapping an opponents land isn't one of those. Port also has the serious downside of not adding read mana, making it even more difficult to cast key spells (Goblin Warchief). Oh yeah, and nothing, nothing sucks more than looking at a rediculous starting hand with the three mana sources being colorless. Not even Vial fixes that.

TL;DR version: Rishadan Port sucks. Don't run it.

edit: Mutavault sucks too. Don't run it.

Just because you will, doesnt mean everyone else is going to insanely nerf their deck. You should be able to cast warcheif with 15 red sources, which is the minimum, expecially with lackey and vial.

xsockmonkeyx
01-02-2008, 07:22 PM
Just because you will, doesnt mean everyone else is going to insanely nerf their deck. You should be able to cast warcheif with 15 red sources, which is the minimum, expecially with lackey and vial.

You should, but the times you dont get RR really suck. Given that the benefit to running port is out weighed by the need for RR you might be inclined to move away from port. Ive cut my port count to 2 and I still run into situations where I miss double red. Ill probably move down to 0 soon.

Tacosnape
01-02-2008, 08:04 PM
Just because you will, doesnt mean everyone else is going to insanely nerf their deck. You should be able to cast warcheif with 15 red sources, which is the minimum, expecially with lackey and vial.

Did you have a logical explanation to go with your assertion that 4 Rishadan Ports is an absolute must, or are you just following the convention?

Port has its moments. It's incredibly insane with an Aether Vial in play, and it can be useful in stalling for time when you need to hit one or two more land drops, but all the Tarmogoyfs running around made the buying time strategy far less viable. That, and multiple Rishadan Ports don't always buy you a lot in this deck, whereas they might otherwise.

I disagree with Teenie and feel that its inclusion is still worthwhile, especially given how often I can randomly keep a deck off of a color for three to five turns, but I feel that its use is diminishing. Like Mr. Monkey, I also run 2 Port, and feel that I get one often enough to get use from them, but not so often that I struggle to get multiple red.

Stooghenstein
01-02-2008, 08:41 PM
I used to run goblins as my maindeck until tarmogoyf was printed then switched to threshold, but when I ran goblins I felt the 4 ports where very crucial to a lot of my wins against multi-colored decks like threshold where i would be able to deny them a color , this helps because a lot of the times it denies them a creature or two which can win games or denies them draw, counter, or pyroclasm. I will probably never cut port from my build just because in my meta where threshold was strong i really love the mana denial factor of goblins between wastelands and ports sometimes i do get RR screwed but thats the price you pay for runnin a lot of mana denial but even then thats where vial factors into play.

StarHawk
01-03-2008, 01:12 PM
I was wondering if leyline of the void would be better in the side-board than tormod's crypt.

Bryant Cook
01-03-2008, 01:22 PM
I was wondering if leyline of the void would be better in the side-board than tormod's crypt.

Depends on a few things, are you playing the black splash? Are you going to be able to hardcast it when drawn. Yes, it's a permanent Tormod's crypt. But are you willing to mulligan into Leyline? Tormod's seems like a better option to me personally.

galeng
01-03-2008, 02:51 PM
Did you have a logical explanation to go with your assertion that 4 Rishadan Ports is an absolute must, or are you just following the convention?

After getting lackey or vial into play, port becomes ridiculous since you can stop playing spells and start preventing them from doing anything to screw you up (even more with wasteland) while you put broken uncounterable goblins into play. That is the reason for port in Vial Goblins, and not Goblin Sligh because Vial Goblins primarily has that method of winning.

Not arguing with you; just giving an explanation.

Tacosnape
01-03-2008, 03:02 PM
After getting lackey or vial into play, port becomes ridiculous since you can stop playing spells and start preventing them from doing anything to screw you up (even more with wasteland) while you put broken uncounterable goblins into play. That is the reason for port in Vial Goblins, and not Goblin Sligh because Vial Goblins primarily has that method of winning.

Not arguing with you; just giving an explanation.

While I agree Port + Vial is one of the best combinations in Legacy, Port's only solid with a Lackey if they don't get a blocker or remove the Lackey first. And if this is the case and you can get a hit off with the Lackey, you stand to be in a pretty decent situation anyway.

dlevsApiJ
01-03-2008, 04:54 PM
Hello,

I dont play many goblins these days, but I want to keep a good list, what do you guys think of this list:

// Lands
2 [B] Plateau
3 [UNH] Mountain
2 [B] Taiga
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

This is also how I have the list in real (ok, need 1 more Chant), I don't want the Rgb list, cause I think Ray is very good, STP is the best removal, and Chant is very good against combo (they also get manaburn most of time :laugh: :tongue: ). And splashing 1 color doesnt seems good enough to me, cause you need Green for the Grips/Hooligan and need B/W for the harder matchups. Also, with 3 colors, EE becomes better :D.

Maybe cutting 1 Port for 1 Mountain (I have to test it), but I dont cut more Ports.

Maybe somecards are strange chosen, but my metagame isnt like the American ;)

Mvg

dontbiteitholmes
01-07-2008, 12:39 PM
Warren Weirding - 1B
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
Target player sacrifices a creature. If a Goblin is sacrificed this way, that player puts two 1/1 black Goblin Rogue creature tokens into play, and those tokens gain haste until end of turn.

Seems pretty solid, Goblins needed an answer to Tarmogoyf and this looks like as close as it's gonna get.

MadManMax
01-07-2008, 02:32 PM
Yeah, this goboedict looks really solid. You can even sac your own Matron or other token to get 2 small hasty goblins, Piledriver is smilling in the corner. Now I'm start thinking of getting a playset of Badlands( never played black goblin splash before). R/b/g or just straight R/b has a lot of good anwsers: discard for disrupt, this tutorable( with Ringleader or Matron) creature removal, sounds awesome :rolleyes: .

Tacosnape
01-07-2008, 02:47 PM
Warren Weirding - 1B
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
Target player sacrifices a creature. If a Goblin is sacrificed this way, that player puts two 1/1 black Goblin Rogue creature tokens into play, and those tokens gain haste until end of turn.

Seems pretty solid, Goblins needed an answer to Tarmogoyf and this looks like as close as it's gonna get.

Okay, that's the official bell. Black's going in Goblins.

Stooghenstein
01-07-2008, 02:52 PM
Warren Weirding - 1B
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
Target player sacrifices a creature. If a Goblin is sacrificed this way, that player puts two 1/1 black Goblin Rogue creature tokens into play, and those tokens gain haste until end of turn.

Seems pretty solid, Goblins needed an answer to Tarmogoyf and this looks like as close as it's gonna get.

Yep time to dust of gobs and get badlands :tongue:

Nihil Credo
01-07-2008, 03:08 PM
Incidentally, the Weirding is good enough on its own, but Wort + Weirding is just ri-fucking-diculous. It makes Volrath's Stronghold + Shriekmaw look like a casual combo.

I'm glad I don't play Standard.

GreenOne
01-07-2008, 03:14 PM
This edict is shit: it sucks in the mirror!

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL :tongue:

If this is true it's going to revamp Goblin a lot. I love it!

TeenieBopper
01-07-2008, 03:16 PM
This edict is shit: it sucks in the mirror!

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL :tongue:

If this is true it's going to revamp Goblin a lot. I love it!

It's not really going to revamp it. At most, I'm going to cut Gempalm Incinerator for it. It might, however, get me to cut Tarmagoyf.

Stooghenstein
01-07-2008, 07:21 PM
It's not really going to revamp it. At most, I'm going to cut Gempalm Incinerator for it. It might, however, get me to cut Tarmagoyf.

I'm currently debating actually keeping my white splash just because swords vs. goyf is actually gaurenteed to hit the goyf vs. the edict, sure this turns a shitty matron late game into tokens but idk.

TeenieBopper
01-07-2008, 08:46 PM
I don't understand why people are still running white in Goblins. Swords? Aight, sure, it's the best removal spell ever printed. But Smother does the exact same thing. And you get Wort. Wort is nuts. Like Peter North busting an eight roper over your girlfriend's chest nuts.

You're giving that up for what? Orim's Chant? What the fuck ever.

Stooghenstein
01-07-2008, 09:01 PM
I don't understand why people are still running white in Goblins. Swords? Aight, sure, it's the best removal spell ever printed. But Smother does the exact same thing. And you get Wort. Wort is nuts. Like Peter North busting an eight roper over your girlfriend's chest nuts.

You're giving that up for what? Orim's Chant? What the fuck ever.

Actually If I could splash black I would I already picked up enough Worts I gut foil ones foreign ones, etc. but thats not the point, my decks worked fine against thresh or anything else with the white splash, and if it is working fine like it is why should i Invest in another friggen set of duals..

kabal
01-07-2008, 09:09 PM
I don't understand why people are still running white in Goblins. Swords? Aight, sure, it's the best removal spell ever printed. But Smother does the exact same thing.

Actually, why don't people play Terminate as their removal if they are going to splash Black?

Bovinious
01-07-2008, 09:19 PM
People dont play Termimate because it cannot be fetched with Ringleader/Matron, and cannot be recurred with Wort. Also, you may not always have RB with 6-8 colorless producing lands. Some people play Smother, but Gempalm usually can get the job done.

I can see this new Edict being at LEAST a 1-of in goblins for tutor up and Wort recursion action, it certainly doesnt obsolete Gempalm but it does give it some competition/help.

The Grim Reaper
01-08-2008, 01:03 AM
Sensation Gorger
1rr
Creature - Goblin Shaman Rare
Kinship - At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top card of your library. If it shares a creature type with Sensation Gorger you may reveal it. If you do, each player discards his or her hand and draws four cards.
“More. More. MORE!!”
2/2

Hmm... is it just me or does this seem very very good? Its basically a super ringleader every turn. The down side is, of course, your opponents gets to draw the cards too. There probably isn't any room in the deck for this guy. Thoughts?

Bovinious
01-08-2008, 02:09 AM
Sensation Gorger
1rr
Creature - Goblin Shaman Rare
Kinship - At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top card of your library. If it shares a creature type with Sensation Gorger you may reveal it. If you do, each player discards his or her hand and draws four cards.
“More. More. MORE!!”
2/2

Hmm... is it just me or does this seem very very good? Its basically a super ringleader every turn. The down side is, of course, your opponents gets to draw the cards too. There probably isn't any room in the deck for this guy. Thoughts?

I think he is terrible, it draws your opponent into threats/answers, and hes just a 2/2 to boot. Id rather have Ringleader any day of the week.

Tacosnape
01-08-2008, 04:24 AM
I agree. Sensation Gorger is kind of ehh. Card for card, Goblins is one of the weakest decks in the format, and generally four of their random cards are stronger than four of your random cards. Also, thanks in large part to Ringleader, your hand tends to be more full than your opponent's.

diffy
01-08-2008, 05:57 AM
I've never been a huge fan of Goblins but post-Morningtide I'll really consider making this deck, there're just so many insane things comming...

I'm thinking of something along the lines of:



//// Mainboard (60 cards)

/// Lands (22)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Grounds
4 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
4 Rishadan Port

/// Non-Goblins (8)
4 AEther Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest

/// Goblins (30)
// Non-creatures (2)
2 "That new Sorcery speed Edict"

// Creatures (28)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 "That new Warchief"
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
3 Siege-Gang Comander

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Gempalm Incinerator

//// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin King
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy


No Wastelands because the deck tends to be quite manahungry and I've always found a single, non-recursive, Wasteland effect not strong enough for the tempo loss it creates.
Survival because it's friggin' ridonculus giving this deck an actual curve (and not a hole in the 2-slot) and another "I win the game" card that is actually pretty likely to resolve with all the other must-handles that you pack.
The 2/1 Edict/Incinerator split because edit is usually better but there are some situations where you need the targetet removal effect (eg mirror, random aggro etc).
The one new Warchief is there to smooth the curve. I don't know yet how strong he's and if I'll add in more.

Any Ideas?

GreenOne
01-08-2008, 06:21 AM
That should be a list focused on winning the Aggro-Control matchup:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [B] Badlands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

2-3 Incinerators are probably enough, as they are effective in the middle game, when some number of goblins are already on the table. You probably want weirding every game and early in the game, and probably in multiples, so 4 it's ok.


Warren Weirding pros:
- Smooths up the curve.
- Kills Goyf.
- It's a goblin: improve your Ringleaders and it's great with Wort and Matron
- Is huge vs thresh, as it can kill Mongoose too. Mongoose is not anymore a Lackey solution.
- Is good vs huge beaters like equipped creatures, protected creatures, creatures with shroud, or regeneration, Exhalted Angels, Sea Drake, etc.
- Unlike Gempalm, it's really effective early in the game.
- Unlike Gempalm, it can't be Needled, Stifled

Cons:
- It's easily counterable. Gets hit by Spell Snare and Counterbalance.
- It doesn't cycle (meh)
- It sux in the mirror
- It's not great vs other decks with loads of critters
- It's not a creature: there are times where the 2/1 body of incinerator was useful. However, the ability of making 2 hasty tokens can be useful vs control.
- It's sorcery speed. This can be an issue vs Vial decks and Manlands. Can't be used for tricks in the combat step.


@Freund: Survival is yet to explore in goblins, but I don't think it has a lot of potential. Survival requires a good amount of Green mana (so you have to drop some amount of LD package), and it really does nothing to disrupt/beat the opponent NOW. You already tend to have a good amount of cards in hand thanks to Wort, Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, so a card that generates card advantage in the late game is not what the deck was looking for IMO. It also asks you to run some suboptimal cards like Squee. Drawing multiples if the first stuck is not really good too. As with any other card you have to fit in a tribal deck you have to ask yourself: is this thing any better than a Goblin card?

Survival has good sinergy with lackey and vial though (but if you have a Vial out or a connecting Lackey you should already be winning). It probably needs a dedicated build quite different from "standard" decklists, like Food Chain Goblins attempted to do.

zulander
01-08-2008, 06:53 AM
Sensation Gorger
1rr
Creature - Goblin Shaman Rare
Kinship - At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top card of your library. If it shares a creature type with Sensation Gorger you may reveal it. If you do, each player discards his or her hand and draws four cards.
“More. More. MORE!!”
2/2

Hmm... is it just me or does this seem very very good? Its basically a super ringleader every turn. The down side is, of course, your opponents gets to draw the cards too. There probably isn't any room in the deck for this guy. Thoughts?
See, I actually think this guy is good. I see him as a discard spell. Here's the pro's I see.

1. Against combo he makes sure they have to win turn 1/2 or they'll never win. They'll never have more than 4 cards in hand which will slow them down tremendously.

2. Against decks like thresh he ruins one of their strategies which is to mold your hand after playing the cantrips you need.

3. Against control decks he limits the cards in their hand. He's a bomb here.

I'd at least test him out before dishing him to the side, he's just too good. Here's a list I may try out:

Mana: 23
3 Port
3 Waste
4 B. Mire
3 Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Mountains
2 Taiga

Utility: 5
4 Vile
1 Warren Weirding

Creatures: 32
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
3 Piledriver
1 Tin-Street
4 Matron
2 Incinerator
4 Warchief
3 Sensation Gorger
4 Ringleader
1 Wart
2 Seige-Gang

Sideboard: 15
4 Krosan Grip
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Crypt
3 other???

diffy
01-08-2008, 09:59 AM
Survival requires a good amount of Green mana (so you have to drop some amount of LD package).


I noticed as of late that Wasteland was becoming more and more sucky and more contraproductive to your own strategy than harmfull to your opponents. Manabases just aren't so easy to disrupt anymore, so I don't see a reason not to drop down on the Wastelands. You can keep the Ports as they are basically the same but provide mana when you need it.



It does nothing to disrupt/beat the opponent NOW.


I disagree... if you manage to stick a Survival and start the engine, you have won, your opponent just might not have noticed yet.



You already tend to have a good amount of cards in hand thanks to Wort, Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, so a card that generates card advantage in the late game is not what the deck was looking for IMO.


You can't rely on your other means of generating card advantage to work all the time... if they do, you're likely to have won anyways.
Just see Survival as another must handle/standalone threat that wins the game, just like Wort and Ringleader with the difference that it does so from turn2 onwards.



It also asks you to run some suboptimal cards like Squee.


You have exactly one 'dead' draw without survival and Squee is actually not all that bad as he pumps Piledriver, is revealed by Ringleader and flings for 2 every turn with SGC.



Drawing multiples if the first stuck is not really good too.


To repeat myself: if one of these sticks, you have won so a few dead draws are affordable.

GreenOne
01-08-2008, 10:38 AM
I disagree... if you manage to stick a Survival and start the engine, you have won, your opponent just might not have noticed yet.

It takes your second turn to play survival and your third turn to start the engine. That's not a big deal for a deck that wants to win on turn 4.
Survival can be a great card, but when does this deck empties his hand? on turn 6-7?



Just see Survival as another must handle/standalone threat that wins the game, just like Wort and Ringleader with the difference that it does so from turn2 onwards.

Survival is exactly good at doing this, but it slows the deck down. While Wort's and Ringleader's ability don't cost a thing other than their casting cost (which can be cheated with Warchiefs, Vial, Lackey and the new 2cc Warchief), Survival costs 1GG to have it first activation and 1GGG to have the squee engine running. And Survival doesn't beat on its own (a thing ringleader and Wort do)

I'm not saying that survival is a bad card, or that it can't fit into gobbos. I'm just saying that to take advantage of it the deck needs to slow down. A deck without survival has 5 more slots to work with that are Ringleaderable. You probably can afford to run 5 more creature removal to strenghten your aggrocontrol matchup, or to play 2 more Wort to gain additional card advantage, etc.
Survival probably helps in the control matchup a lot. It can also help in SB strategy, where SBing just a creature can function as a tutorable solution. That is cool. I'm thinking about something like Jailer or omething to deal with enchantments or just tarmogoyfs or fledgling dragons to tutor for when there's 2x plague, or Caller of the Claw against Pyroclasm/Wrath/Pernicious Deed.

erhnamdjinn
01-08-2008, 12:45 PM
actually my main problems before were not tarmo which I could deal with easily since I splash white, I was have trouble with nimble mongoose and silver knight and this my friends is the answer I think:

Warren Weirding - 1B
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
Target player sacrifices a creature. If a Goblin is sacrificed this way, that player puts two 1/1 black Goblin Rogue creature tokens into play, and those tokens gain haste until end of turn.

As the others mentioned it can be fetched, by ringleader and matron and can be recurred by wort, hmm maybe black splash is the way to go.

TeenieBopper
01-08-2008, 01:42 PM
I give up.

Wasteland>>>>>>>(ad infinum) Rishadan Port.

The new warchief sucks.

Black splash is infinitely better than the white one, and has been for months.

7 Incinerator/Weirding effects is overkill.

Gorger is... interesting. I'm not saying he's good, but I'm not saying he's bad. He's the one goblin from Lorwyn I can look at and not know for sure if he sucks or not without trying him out.

Jaynel
01-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Is Weirding a replacement for Incinerator? How many removal effects should be run, do you think?

TeenieBopper
01-08-2008, 02:43 PM
Is Weirding a replacement for Incinerator? How many removal effects should be run, do you think?

No more than 5, not including Fanatic and Sharpshooter.

It's a matter of what to cut. If you're running black and green and still running port, going below 23 land is a very bad idea. You're also giving up versatility. I don't think anyone should have a main deck without 1x Tin-Street; there's way to many pain in the ass artifacts in the format. I understand not wanting a Sharpshooter in the main (though I love the card and haven't cut him), but I'd rather cut him for another dude that swings, or some beef (another SGC, maybe Goblin Goon). The removal is tutorable, so you're running the removal itself, plus four more copies in Matron.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-08-2008, 05:16 PM
Fine. I'll be the one to say it.

Earwig Squad is insane in this deck.

3BB

Goblin Rogue

Prowl 2B

When Earwig Squad comes into play, if its prowl cost was paid, search target opponent's library for three cards and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

5/3

I know, he doesn't have synergy with Vial or Lackey. So what? Neither does Tin Street and we all saw how that turned out.

2B to beat target combo deck(1B with Warchief out), AND get a 5/3 that can function under double plague and trades with Goyf a fair amount of the time.

Imagine this play;

Turn 1 Lackey
Turn 2 Warchief, play Earwig Squad, make any combo deck cry(not to mention half the control decks running less than 4 real win conditions).

TeenieBopper
01-08-2008, 05:26 PM
I don't know. I mean, it looks cool, but most combo decks run multiple win conditions, plus tutors, plus wishes. It might stall them for a turn or two. That could be enough time, it could not.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-08-2008, 05:36 PM
Tutors can't grab what's not there. Most combo decks really don't run that many win conditions or business spells. The ability of Earwig to let you hit their weakest link seems fantastic.

TeenieBopper
01-08-2008, 06:00 PM
Belcher runs 4x Belcher and multiple copies of Empty the Warren, plus Wish.

Ichorid doesn't rely and three specific cards to win.

You could theoretically get all of TES maindeck win conditions, but they still have wish.

Enchantress seems like the only deck the ability resolving would make an autowin. But you have to get it down before Confinement.

I guess it'd be alright against Aluren. They don't play tutors, do they?

JDunkin00
01-08-2008, 07:29 PM
I love goon in my build as a 1 of and he helps against e.plague.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-08-2008, 08:50 PM
Belcher runs 4x Belcher and multiple copies of Empty the Warren, plus Wish.

Ichorid doesn't rely and three specific cards to win.

You could theoretically get all of TES maindeck win conditions, but they still have wish.

Ichorid is pretty damn crippled if you take out 3x Bridges.

Belcher probably isn't very hurt.

TES I'm not sure what you hit; if you're familiar with the decklist you can try to figure out what's in their hand as you search, and hit what they most need.


Enchantress seems like the only deck the ability resolving would make an autowin. But you have to get it down before Confinement.

Breakfast. Take out 3x Meditates or High Tides against Solidarity. Hit Squee, Anger and some other critical guy against Survival.

This card doesn't need to be an auto win. It's a Juggernaut and 3x Extract for 2-3 mana. In what match-up is that a bad deal? Even in the mirror you can eliminate the opponents' SGCs.

Mental
01-08-2008, 09:09 PM
Ichorid is pretty damn crippled if you take out 3x Bridges.

Belcher probably isn't very hurt.

TES I'm not sure what you hit; if you're familiar with the decklist you can try to figure out what's in their hand as you search, and hit what they most need.



Breakfast. Take out 3x Meditates or High Tides against Solidarity. Hit Squee, Anger and some other critical guy against Survival.

This card doesn't need to be an auto win. It's a Juggernaut and 3x Extract for 2-3 mana. In what match-up is that a bad deal? Even in the mirror you can eliminate the opponents' SGCs.

I've gotta agree with Spat that this guy warrants testing.

BTW, against TES, you grab:
1x IGG
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Tendrils/EtW

or
3x LED.

Slay
01-09-2008, 12:33 AM
So, am I missing something, or are we seriously discussing a combo hate card for Goblins that comes online turn 2 with a god hand, and otherwise turn 3 or later? I find it hard to believe that a combo-hate card that comes down late and requires other cards for it to even be played in a relevant timeframe is any good whatsoever. In fact, it sucks. For people who talk about how Thorn of Amethyst is too slow, you sure love a card that is even slower than that and doesn't even fully stop them from comboing.
-Slay

Tacosnape
01-09-2008, 01:02 AM
So, am I missing something, or are we seriously discussing a combo hate card for Goblins that comes online turn 2 with a god hand, and otherwise turn 3 or later? I find it hard to believe that a combo-hate card that comes down late and requires other cards for it to even be played in a relevant timeframe is any good whatsoever. In fact, it sucks. For people who talk about how Thorn of Amethyst is too slow, you sure love a card that is even slower than that and doesn't even fully stop them from comboing.
-Slay

Yeah, I sort of agree with this. I'm not overwhelmed by Earwig Squad. He's good against Ichorid, but our whole deck's good against Ichorid anyway. He sucks against Belcher and TES, as they're too fast, and he's only ehh against Solidarity, as they can recover from any three cards you remove. About the only combo match he seems very strong against is Cephalid Breakfast.

It's worth noting he's notably decent against decks with limited kill conditions, but most of these decks can just counter him.

Also, this is Black we're talking about. Why not just run, you know, Thoughtseize? Or something good?

Nihil Credo
01-09-2008, 01:10 AM
Yeah, if anything, the Squad could work as anti-control hate. Get rid of 3x Plagues, 3x sweepers, etc.

Shawon
01-09-2008, 01:42 AM
Or, the Squad could just stay in Extended, and we can avoid its hideous face like a tranvestitite brother.

dontbiteitholmes
01-09-2008, 05:42 AM
I give up.

Wasteland>>>>>>>(ad infinum) Rishadan Port.

The new warchief sucks.

Black splash is infinitely better than the white one, and has been for months.

7 Incinerator/Weirding effects is overkill.

Gorger is... interesting. I'm not saying he's good, but I'm not saying he's bad. He's the one goblin from Lorwyn I can look at and not know for sure if he sucks or not without trying him out.
I pretty much agree with all this. Also just to add to the pros of Weirding, it can turn your Warchief into 2 hasty gobos if you need Tin-Street to do his thing and you play Rbg. I personally think Rbg is the way Gobs will be headed and Weirding should def. be at least a one of as it has utility even when the opponent has no creatures and either way you work it you come out 1 creature ahead if he does. As for the other Morningtide Gobs spoiled so far they lack the overall synergy of already established cards and I don't think they will see play unless the meta somehow changes.

arvid
01-09-2008, 08:33 AM
CREATURES (30)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

SORCERIES (4)
4 Warren Weirding

ARTIFACTS (4)
4 AEther Vial

LAND (22)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port


How important is Mogg Fanatic exactly? I realize it can play an important part versus Cephalid Breakfast, other than that does it do anymore particularly impressive except being another 1st turn drop, to smooth out the curve? Cause there are some cards which could potentially do this aswell, such as Thoughseize maindeck.

GreenOne
01-09-2008, 09:47 AM
How important is Mogg Fanatic exactly?

- Smooth the curve
- It's a goblin so it has sinergy wih the deck in general, particularly with Incinerator, early Piledrivers, Sharpshooter and Wort
- It kills a small amount of threats (Confidant, Mother of runes, disciple of the vault...) or trades with Grizzly Bears
- Helps agains opposing Jittes (they don't charge for a turn)
- It's good in the Cephalid Brakfast matchup
- It's good in the Ichorid matchup
- It's good in the Aluren matchup
- It's on your primary color
- Usually beats for 2-3 dmg, which is good for just R.
- Last but not least, it disrupts the savage Hard Boiled Awesome Sauce deck (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=551329). God save the fanatics.

Is there anything I'm missing about the effectiveness of Fanatic? It's solid but not spectacular (the way lackey and vial are).

Nightmare
01-09-2008, 09:54 AM
CREATURES (30)

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

Strongly consider making this two Wort.


LAND (22)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
You are running at least 4 too few red sources. You are going to find it difficult to consistantly hit RR when you need it, especially against Wastelands. Think about it. You're running more colorless producers than you are red producers.

arvid
01-09-2008, 10:09 AM
Is there anything I'm missing about the effectiveness of Fanatic? It's solid but not spectacular (the way lackey and vial are).

You made a bunch of good points there.



Strongly consider making this two Wort.


Care to elaborate? They don't serve the exact same purpose. Although Kiki only is good when you already have cards on the table (making it a win-more card??) it can be more game-breaking than a Wort, can't it (especially since you can copy the Matron which you tutored Kiki with, to begin with)?



You are running at least 4 too few red sources. You are going to find it difficult to consistantly hit RR when you need it, especially against Wastelands. Think about it. You're running more colorless producers than you are red producers.


Not if you count fetch as a red producer, but you might very well be right. So cutting down to perhaps 4-6 fetch for duals/mountains could be the way to go here?

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-09-2008, 12:40 PM
So, am I missing something, or are we seriously discussing a combo hate card for Goblins that comes online turn 2 with a god hand, and otherwise turn 3 or later? I find it hard to believe that a combo-hate card that comes down late and requires other cards for it to even be played in a relevant timeframe is any good whatsoever. In fact, it sucks. For people who talk about how Thorn of Amethyst is too slow, you sure love a card that is even slower than that and doesn't even fully stop them from comboing.
-Slay

Thorn of Amethyst is neither a Goblin, nor a 5/3 Goblin for 3 mana, nor is it as flexible.

Earwig Squad doesn't JUST hit combo decks, he hits everything. He can get rid of sweepers, threats, combo pieces, or even mana.


Also, this is Black we're talking about. Why not just run, you know, Thoughtseize? Or something good?

Why run Matron? 3 mana for a 1/1? That card is terrible. Ringleader? I heart 4 mana 2/2s.

If you guys don't understand the synergy that makes the deck tick, you don't understand the deck. Thoughtseize and Thorn are not Goblins. Thus they don't have as much synergy with the deck. Thus they're not comparable.

Nightmare
01-09-2008, 12:47 PM
Care to elaborate? They don't serve the exact same purpose. Although Kiki only is good when you already have cards on the table (making it a win-more card??) it can be more game-breaking than a Wort, can't it (especially since you can copy the Matron which you tutored Kiki with, to begin with)?If you go nuts with Kiki, you've already won the game. He's exactly a win-more card. Like, yeah, he's good, but nowhere near as good as Wort.


Not if you count fetch as a red producer, but you might very well be right. So cutting down to perhaps 4-6 fetch for duals/mountains could be the way to go here?I'd say you're better off cutting Port, but I know I'm apparently in the minority on that.

GreenOne
01-09-2008, 01:37 PM
I'd say you're better off cutting Port, but I know I'm apparently in the minority on that.

I'm with you about port. I'd go with 0-2 ports in 2 color builds and 0 ports in 3 color builds. I'd never go with more than 3 ports unless you want to raise the land count.

JDunkin00
01-09-2008, 04:20 PM
If you go nuts with Kiki, you've already won the game. He's exactly a win-more card. Like, yeah, he's good, but nowhere near as good as Wort.

I'd say you're better off cutting Port, but I know I'm apparently in the minority on that.

I cut Kiki a long time ago. I prefer the full set of ports. I would cut back on fetches, replaced by mountains. Basic mountains are far more important because your splashes can be cheated in (Vial, Lackey).

Slay
01-09-2008, 05:40 PM
Thorn of Amethyst is neither a Goblin, nor a 5/3 Goblin for 3 mana, nor is it as flexible.

Earwig Squad doesn't JUST hit combo decks, he hits everything. He can get rid of sweepers, threats, combo pieces, or even mana.

But he doesn't give you actual card advantage, only a big beater. If your opponent still has enough gas to run through your goblins, you still lose. And because you're spending your turn playing a beater instead of getting card or mana advantage with your other 3-4 drops, you give your opponent that much more time to get better cards than you and continue to win.


Why run Matron? 3 mana for a 1/1? That card is terrible. Ringleader? I heart 4 mana 2/2s.

If you guys don't understand the synergy that makes the deck tick, you don't understand the deck. Thoughtseize and Thorn are not Goblins. Thus they don't have as much synergy with the deck. Thus they're not comparable.

The synergy Goblins has isn't that all of its cards are Goblins, its that all of its cards, with the exception of Fanatic and Piledriver and SGC, get you card advantage or mana advantage. Earwig Squad does neither, and it's high on the curve. I'd play a Ringleader or a Matron or a Warchief or basically any other card before I'd play a Squad simply because it costs a lot of mana for a negligible effect and a mediocre beatstick. And, if you really want to talk about dissynergies, how about the way Earwig Squad is TERRIBLE with Vial and still costs 4 mana(with 2 black) if you have a Warchief and want to attack with it.
-Slay

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-09-2008, 06:29 PM
That argument about Vial/Lackey applies to Tin-Street as well. Goblins is powerful because all of its components have synergy with each other. Any goblin card is better than any non goblin card of roughly equal power level because of the cards you're all ready running, not because of the card in question.

Pretending that the deck's synergy isn't tribal is inane. Why not run Avalanche Riders? It's a free stone rain with Vial at 4. The deck's components all advance your mid-game strategy, as does Earwig; it doesn't gain direct card advantage, but neither do most of your cards. Like Warchief, it makes your other threats better, not by increasing their strength, but by removing the opponents best answers. Facing Life from the Loam minus Burning Wish, or Survival minus Squee-Anger-Genesis suite, is a very good proposition in the mid-late game.

The scenario of having Warchief out and being "forced" to play Earwig earlier leaves you with only a hasted Juggernaut. That's not an amazing argument against the guy if that's your worst case scenario.

JDunkin00
01-09-2008, 07:31 PM
But he doesn't give you actual card advantage, only a big beater. If your opponent still has enough gas to run through your goblins, you still lose. And because you're spending your turn playing a beater instead of getting card or mana advantage with your other 3-4 drops, you give your opponent that much more time to get better cards than you and continue to win.



The synergy Goblins has isn't that all of its cards are Goblins, its that all of its cards, with the exception of Fanatic and Piledriver and SGC, get you card advantage or mana advantage. Earwig Squad does neither, and it's high on the curve. I'd play a Ringleader or a Matron or a Warchief or basically any other card before I'd play a Squad simply because it costs a lot of mana for a negligible effect and a mediocre beatstick. And, if you really want to talk about dissynergies, how about the way Earwig Squad is TERRIBLE with Vial and still costs 4 mana(with 2 black) if you have a Warchief and want to attack with it.
-Slay

I have to disagree with you about SGC he is quite the essence of card advantage. Card advantage doesn"t have to be cards in hand trading one card (SGC) for 2-8 of theirs using block, stack damage, sack tricks is definately CA. I do agree earwig squad seems worse and worse everytime I think about it.

Slay
01-09-2008, 09:18 PM
That argument about Vial/Lackey applies to Tin-Street as well. Goblins is powerful because all of its components have synergy with each other. Any goblin card is better than any non goblin card of roughly equal power level because of the cards you're all ready running, not because of the card in question.

Pretending that the deck's synergy isn't tribal is inane. Why not run Avalanche Riders? It's a free stone rain with Vial at 4. The deck's components all advance your mid-game strategy, as does Earwig; it doesn't gain direct card advantage, but neither do most of your cards. Like Warchief, it makes your other threats better, not by increasing their strength, but by removing the opponents best answers. Facing Life from the Loam minus Burning Wish, or Survival minus Squee-Anger-Genesis suite, is a very good proposition in the mid-late game.

The scenario of having Warchief out and being "forced" to play Earwig earlier leaves you with only a hasted Juggernaut. That's not an amazing argument against the guy if that's your worst case scenario.

Firstly, to think you're going to hit Squee-Anger-Genesis with one of these is ridiculous. If you ever get around to playing this card, and Survival hasn't already gotten them to the yard, you either got the God hand or they suck at Magic. And even then it's not like you would have won anyways, they still play better creatures than you. Against a Loam deck, you're worried about their Burning Wishes? Either they've got their Loam engine up and running and don't care about drawing cards, or they have already got enough Burning Wishes, or you've gotten the God hand. Do you understand what I'm getting at here? In most of the situations that you will be able to play Earwig, its ability will be either irrelevant because they've already found their cards, or your opponent will have gained enough of a position to counter it. Sure you might win a game or two against Breakfast or Ichorid or Survival Or Aluren by getting it out early, but that requires you playing it in multiples, and you getting a God draw. Do you really think the ability for its mana cost is worth it?

Secondly, what are you going to replace for it? Are you going to play it as a one or two of and hope to Matron into it before your opponent gets his engine ready? Is it better than Incinerator? Is it better than Matron? is it better than Siege-Gang? Which cards exactly is it better than? Unless you want to overload the curve, you would have to replace a 3cc or higher Goblin with the Earwig. That leaves you with Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Wort, SGC.Are you goign to cut any of them for a conditional beatstick?

To tie it all together: Against most decks the ability is mostly meaningless, and most of the decks it's not meaningless against will either win before it hits play or counter it, or you had a Lackey(but I prefer my hate cards not require a Goblin Lackey to connect before they start working). So therefore, would you be comfortable with what will usually be a Juggernaut which costs between 3 and 5 mana in this format? Is it better than any of the cards in your deck? Does it serve as much utility as the utility cards in your deck do? I don't see any reason, when you look at the textbox instead of the type line, that the card would ever have a place in the deck outside of some very, very obscure metagame.
-Slay

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-10-2008, 12:16 AM
Firstly, to think you're going to hit Squee-Anger-Genesis with one of these is ridiculous. If you ever get around to playing this card, and Survival hasn't already gotten them to the yard, you either got the God hand or they suck at Magic.

That depends on what you're playing. If for instance you replace Wastes with Tombs, which isn't a bad meta decision anyway, your chances of a turn 2-3 Earwig aren't bad at all. Getting Warchief and Lackey isn't exactly a God-draw at any rate. Nor is Survival nearly as fast as you're implying.


And even then it's not like you would have won anyways, they still play better creatures than you.

Strongly disagree. Without the card advantage of Squee, or the threat of Anger, their threats all become substantially weaker.


Against a Loam deck, you're worried about their Burning Wishes? Either they've got their Loam engine up and running and don't care about drawing cards, or they have already got enough Burning Wishes, or you've gotten the God hand.

What would the alternative cards do in that situation?


Do you understand what I'm getting at here? In most of the situations that you will be able to play Earwig, its ability will be either irrelevant because they've already found their cards, or your opponent will have gained enough of a position to counter it. Sure you might win a game or two against Breakfast or Ichorid or Survival Or Aluren by getting it out early, but that requires you playing it in multiples, and you getting a God draw. Do you really think the ability for its mana cost is worth it?

For 2-3 mana, and a Juggernaut?

Yes. Compared to the alternatives.


Secondly, what are you going to replace for it? Are you going to play it as a one or two of and hope to Matron into it before your opponent gets his engine ready? Is it better than Incinerator? Is it better than Matron? is it better than Siege-Gang? Which cards exactly is it better than? Unless you want to overload the curve, you would have to replace a 3cc or higher Goblin with the Earwig. That leaves you with Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Wort, SGC.Are you goign to cut any of them for a conditional beatstick?

You run 2-3 and because it's never dead, even if you don't have it early. Off the top of my head you replace, from Jeff Folonius Mana Leak Open 3 list, the second Wort and a Piledriver. With the switch from Waste to Tomb you could replace the 23rd land.


To tie it all together: Against most decks the ability is mostly meaningless, and most of the decks it's not meaningless against will either win before it hits play or counter it, or you had a Lackey(but I prefer my hate cards not require a Goblin Lackey to connect before they start working). So therefore, would you be comfortable with what will usually be a Juggernaut which costs between 3 and 5 mana in this format? Is it better than any of the cards in your deck? Does it serve as much utility as the utility cards in your deck do? I don't see any reason, when you look at the textbox instead of the type line, that the card would ever have a place in the deck outside of some very, very obscure metagame.
-Slay

First of all, the deck needs muscle anyway. Second of all, that muscle comes with an always useful and sometimes game-winning ability. I think your problem is that you're thinking of it as a hoser, when it's a beatstick that gives you a strong leg-up in the mid-late game, and occasionally steals a game on its own.

zulander
01-10-2008, 12:32 AM
I think he's conditional at best.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-10-2008, 12:36 AM
In what sense? He'll only conditionally win games by himself, but he'll always be a 5/3 that eliminates three important threats to your game-plan, creating substantial virtual card advantage.

etrigan
01-10-2008, 02:45 AM
He wont always be 5/3 that eliminates threats. You'll have to swing in for damage for that to happen.

Which creates a conflict within the deck. Warchief giving guys haste is an important aspect of the card. You will never be able to extract 3 and take advantage of the haste.

Then again, maybe that fact will probe irrelevant.

Kundalini
01-10-2008, 08:09 AM
Lightning Crafter

Cost: 3R

Creature - Goblin Shaman - 3/3

Champion a Goblin or Shaman
T: Lightning Crafter deals 3 damage to target creature or player.


I can see this finding a place in goblins. It is not so easy casting it out of vial, lackey or warchief... and there are some ridiculous plays with this and kiki-jiki and/or ANY other CIP goblin in the deck.

Goblins that are in the deck mainly for their CIP effects (matron, ringleader) can be championed to eventually replay their CIP effect. Crafter in play with a championed matron/ringleader can chump block, burn in response and return your ringleader to play; OR, shoot himself if you desperately need that matron to tutor up a particular goblin you need at the moment.

With a crafter and a kiki-jiki in play you can:
Tap kiki to copy crafter, champion kiki itself; tap crafter to burn for 3; EOT kiki returns into play, then repeat in opp's turn and so on.

I think this has promising possibilities!
One or two crafter can easily replace some gempalm incinerator and/ or ringleaders and/or ib halfheart...

Slay
01-10-2008, 09:44 AM
That depends on what you're playing. If for instance you replace Wastes with Tombs, which isn't a bad meta decision anyway, your chances of a turn 2-3 Earwig aren't bad at all. Getting Warchief and Lackey isn't exactly a God-draw at any rate. Nor is Survival nearly as fast as you're implying.

Getting Warchief and Lackey means you can win on turn 4, most of the time. Sure, if you want to make the deck as top-heavy as possible, be my guest, but it's pretty ridiculous to do so.


Strongly disagree. Without the card advantage of Squee, or the threat of Anger, their threats all become substantially weaker.

So what you're saying is, if they don't get an early Survival, you can play a spell that makes your threats better than their threats? That's the definition of conditional.


What would the alternative cards do in that situation?

What every other card in Goblins does - draw more Goblins, or make your Goblins cheaper, or beat for a million. Those are all better than what is generally going to be a vanilla beater.


For 2-3 mana, and a Juggernaut?

Yes. Compared to the alternatives.

The alternatives are drawing cards that cheat your mana, gain actual card advantage, or deal lots of damage. A (mostly) vanilla 5/3 beatstick is pretty useless, and is spectacularly easy to kill.


You run 2-3 and because it's never dead, even if you don't have it early. Off the top of my head you replace, from Jeff Folonius Mana Leak Open 3 list, the second Wort and a Piledriver. With the switch from Waste to Tomb you could replace the 23rd land.

When would you ever want to draw this over Wort?


First of all, the deck needs muscle anyway. Second of all, that muscle comes with an always useful and sometimes game-winning ability. I think your problem is that you're thinking of it as a hoser, when it's a beatstick that gives you a strong leg-up in the mid-late game, and occasionally steals a game on its own.

I agree with you that the deck needs muscle. However, what it does not need is a very high curve and more cards that are useless if you can't get in the early beats. You're going to open a lot of hands where you're really going to be relying on being undisrupted and drawing into some lands in order to play the majority of your spells. You'll be less able to answer Tarmogoyf beats, and you make yourself even more susceptible to Daze, and your opponent will get his gameplan set up faster than you. Goblins won because it translated early-game momentum into mid-late game card advantage and mana advantage, and in this regard, playing Earwig Squad is counter to your gameplan. It's the worst Goblin in your deck, and it's going to sit in your hand because there's much, much better stuff you could be playing for that mana. At best it trades with a Tarmogoyf, at worst it trades for a few cheap creatures or a Swords. That's terrible tempo disadvantage no matter how you cut it, and the last thing Goblins needs right now is to play cards that are almost guaranteed to lose you tempo.
-Slay

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-10-2008, 12:47 PM
You keep saying "high curve". 3 mana is not top-heavy for the deck, its the average CC.


The alternatives are drawing cards that cheat your mana, gain actual card advantage, or deal lots of damage. A (mostly) vanilla 5/3 beatstick is pretty useless, and is spectacularly easy to kill.

None of the alternatives actually do those things, and this is what you're argument is missing. I never suggested cutting Matron or Ringleader or Warchief. Piledriver CAN do tons of damage, but Piledriver is actually much more conditional than Earwig Squad is. The second Wort is also conditional, as it's legendary.

It may actually make more sense to cut another Piledriver for the second Earwig, rather than the second Wort. Either way, there are spots up for grabs that Earwig may be better than.


So what you're saying is, if they don't get an early Survival, you can play a spell that makes your threats better than their threats? That's the definition of conditional.

A turn 2 Survival on the draw means they don't get pieces online til turn 3, and don't get stuff on the board until turn 4. That's enough time for a turn 2-3 Earwig to tip the game in your favor; even if they grab Squee and Anger, you can still remove 3 Goyfs that otherwise would be hitting the board soon, and you now have a 5/3 to face off the remaining Goyf. Against an active Survival, any early to mid Earwig is the opposite of conditional; an early Survival means their deck is available to them, meaning any cards you take away are cards they otherwise would have tutored for next turn.


When would you ever want to draw this over Wort?/quote]

When your GY isn't full, or against an active Survival(with access to removal or Loaming Shaman), or if you all ready have Wort in play, or against Breakfast/Enchantress/any threat light deck, or if you're one mana short of Auntie.

Although as I said, another Piledriver might be the right call.

[quote=etrigan]Which creates a conflict within the deck. Warchief giving guys haste is an important aspect of the card. You will never be able to extract 3 and take advantage of the haste.

This is true. You still have control over which happens though. If you need a hasty Juggernaut, you can have it, and if you need a 2 mana triple extract, you can have that.

Nightmare
01-10-2008, 01:09 PM
Vs. Survival, if you get the dude out to extract with, why would you get Squee/Anger/Genesis when you could take three Survivals (assume they have not drawn one yet)? Even if you take their stupid engine, it doesn't prevent them from going Goyf Goyf Goyf Goyf, go.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-10-2008, 01:34 PM
They need to drop creatures for those Goyfs, because they don't have Squee. That slows them down a lot. If they haven't drawn a Survival, grabbing three of those might be the best pick.

How much time are you allowed for a complicated search like that?

Nightmare
01-10-2008, 01:41 PM
They need to drop creatures for those Goyfs, because they don't have Squee. That slows them down a lot. If they haven't drawn a Survival, grabbing three of those might be the best pick.

How much time are you allowed for a complicated search like that?Compared to the other twenty creatures in the deck, Goyf is heads and shoulders better. In all the testing I've done with Di, he's glad to pitch a witness and two birds to go get three Goyfs, especially if he can play them that turn. I think your best bet (assuming you see 4 Survivals in the deck, or have Grip in hand, etc) is to make their chances of drawing that last Survival 47:1. Either that, or taking three Goyfs.

Depending on the judge, you have around a minute to two for the search.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-10-2008, 01:46 PM
Well you'd be able to tell if they have Survival, so I guess pre-emptively knocking that out would be your first pick when available.

Taking out 3 Goyfs might be the correct call. I think the card needs a lot of testing in each match-up to see what your best move is.

Slay
01-10-2008, 01:46 PM
You keep saying "high curve". 3 mana is not top-heavy for the deck, its the average CC.

3 mana is a high average cc. When a little less than a third of your deck can't be played before turn 3, your deck is not going to work in Legacy. Or, at the very least, work the way you want it to. You just won't have mana for the cards you want.


None of the alternatives actually do those things, and this is what you're argument is missing. I never suggested cutting Matron or Ringleader or Warchief. Piledriver CAN do tons of damage, but Piledriver is actually much more conditional than Earwig Squad is. The second Wort is also conditional, as it's legendary.

It may actually make more sense to cut another Piledriver for the second Earwig, rather than the second Wort. Either way, there are spots up for grabs that Earwig may be better than.

Piledriver would hold the same role as Earwig Squad, and would be the only thing I would want to cut for it. However, Piledriver always costs 2, where Earwig Squad costs 3 probably a little more than half the time. Piledriver also costs 1 with a Warchief out, and can swing in that turn, as opposed to Earwig Squad which costs 4 if you want to use it as a hasty beater with Warchief. It replaces Piledriver's role poorly, and is really crappy to find when you flip it with a Ringleader you didn't Vial/Lackey in.

Secondly, when I say 'there's better alternatives', I'm not talking about slots in the deck, I'm talking about cards in your hand that you want to cast with mana open. If I had the choice between casting Earwig Squad and basically any other card in the deck, I would almost never take the Earwig Squad. Your 3cc and 4cc slots are jammed full of cards that are better than Earwig Squad by orders of magnitude. Unless you're playing a deck in which Earwig Squad is really good against, you'll only want to be casting Earwig Squad when there's no other cards in your hand, because it costs enough that it won't be until the late game when you'll be able to cast it and other things on the same turn. Think about it. It's the worst card in your deck, but by the nature of its ability, you want to be playing it as fast as possible. That's about the worst dissynergy I could think of, tribal or not.


A turn 2 Survival on the draw means they don't get pieces online til turn 3, and don't get stuff on the board until turn 4. That's enough time for a turn 2-3 Earwig to tip the game in your favor; even if they grab Squee and Anger, you can still remove 3 Goyfs that otherwise would be hitting the board soon, and you now have a 5/3 to face off the remaining Goyf. Against an active Survival, any early to mid Earwig is the opposite of conditional; an early Survival means their deck is available to them, meaning any cards you take away are cards they otherwise would have tutored for next turn.

Conditional means it's got to have prerequisite conditions before it's good, or even playable. Early-to-mid game against Survival without them having an active Survival, hitting your land drops, hell, even having a creature that can swing through reliably, all of those are conditions that make the scenario in which Earwig Squad is better than the other cards in your deck plausible. How often are you going to draw a 2-of in the early-mid game without them having a Survival active(which is a 4-of for them), with enough early creatures(because they play creatures too) that you can actually cast it for its prowl cost? How likely is this scenario? Compared to the likelihood that they get a Survival turn 2-4, and start cranking out dudes, and you have to cast your good creatures to have a shot at winning. In this scenario Piledriver is infinitely better, not because it's necessarily bigger, but because it costs less so you can actually play a bunch of spells on your turn instead of playing one spell a turn till you hit 6 mana. Not to mention, once your opponent gets any kind of actual creature threats, your Earwig Squad will always cost 5, unless your opponent is racing you, which he might do because you made your deck slow as fuck.

Something else you're overlooking is that if you feel the necessity to cut some Piledrivers, you make the chance that you'll be able to play Earwig Squad for its Prowl cost even smaller because you don't have any creatures that can swing. Maybe you kept a few lands and a few big creatures and a Vial in your opening hand. in this scenario, Earwig Squad is terrible. Kiki-jiki terrible. Goblin Goon terrible. It's a dead card if you don't have the creatures to get the damage in with, and you only have 10-12 creatures that cost 2 or less now. Those aren't good odds for you, especially if your opponent also has a creature.
-Slay

JDunkin00
01-10-2008, 06:19 PM
I just feel that earwig comes in too late for his effect to answer the decks he is most needed against and does too little against the rest. He is fine for removing sb hate game 2 and 3 but so would duress and thoughtseize. Cause without it in hand it doesn't matter anyway. Granted he is nice against EE and deed. Piledriver is also far more efficient for after warchief plays and matron chain into piledriver. Also this might get me flamed but borrowing some extended tech what about threaten for an anti goyf play. They are minus 1 big blocker and ups your damage race. Just sayin.

Tacosnape
01-10-2008, 07:09 PM
Also this might get me flamed but borrowing some extended tech what about threaten for an anti goyf play. They are minus 1 big blocker and ups your damage race. Just sayin.

This didn't work for me in Standard, if you'll recall my Jaya Sligh getting trounced by Daniel. Somehow I doubt it will work in Legacy.

As far as I'm concerned, the best solution to Tarmogoyf that Vial Goblins has access to is Warren Weirding, if you run black.

Goblin Grenade, of all things, has served me decently well without black, considering that enchantments rarely if ever hit the yard in Tarmogoyf matches, and by the time all the other types have hit, it's usually turn four or so and you can try to simply overwhelm the Goyf (Or add point number six with a Sharpshooter, Fanatic, or Gempalm.)

TeenieBopper
01-10-2008, 07:25 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the best solution to Tarmogoyf that Vial Goblins has access to is Warren Weirding, if you run black.


Or Tarmogoyf itself. It really is never worse than piledriver.

'course, Weirding is so going in as at least a 3 of when it's legal.

troopatroop
01-11-2008, 01:58 PM
not really tarmo is bad in gobs as it hardly fills the yard with valid permanents and you cant relie on you opponent to do the job, a gobs deck only has creature,land instant and artifact, of which only 3 are constant in the yard. so a 3/4 goyf is not as apealing as say a 10/2 piledriver.

But Piledriver can't answer Tarmogoyf. He should not have worded it the way he did, because a 10/2 is often much better than a 4/5 or 5/6. Tarmogoyf does in fact answer Piledriver though, although Warren's Weirding will give the Goyf player something to fear for sure.

erhnamdjinn
01-11-2008, 03:46 PM
no he said the answer to goyf is goyf which I dont think is, infact I dont really fear Goyf as I have STP and Gempalm to deal with it, its Mongoose that I fear and that can now be dealt with Weirding. The reason Goyf is not good with Gobos is it doesnt fill the library as fast as other decks and it doesnt have that many diffrent card types for goyf to feed on, and you can depend on your opponent to make goyf bigger.

MadManMax
01-11-2008, 04:21 PM
I agree that tarmo has no place in golbins. You can't find it with your tutors, it doesn't improve Incenerator's damage and so on. Also if a goblin player is starting to think how to defend against opposing Goyf that already means that he lost this game. Comparing Tarmo to Piledriver is a bit silly though, because Tarmo is never going to take Piledriver's place in goblins...When does this " lets put Tarmogoyf in every deck so we can anwser our opponent's tarmogoyf" thing is going to over:mad: ?

Tacosnape
01-11-2008, 04:59 PM
Does it become prudent to increase the deck's Siege-Gang Commander count with Warren Weirding involved, given how this will very likely increase your connection percentage with Goblin Lackey?

...And is there room, for that matter?

GreenOne
01-11-2008, 05:24 PM
Does it become prudent to increase the deck's Siege-Gang Commander count with Warren Weirding involved, given how this will very likely increase your connection percentage with Goblin Lackey?

I don't think it's the real deal. Connecting with lackey after clearing the path with Warren Weirding means probably you've won anyway, even if you drop a Ringleader to massive card advantage and speed bust, or a Wort that starts recurring Weirding. I'd up the Wort count before adding Gang Bang Commanders.

Tacosnape
01-11-2008, 06:22 PM
I don't think it's the real deal. Connecting with lackey after clearing the path with Warren Weirding means probably you've won anyway, even if you drop a Ringleader to massive card advantage and speed bust, or a Wort that starts recurring Weirding. I'd up the Wort count before adding Gang Bang Commanders.

...

Holy crap, I didn't even consider that. Autoexec.Edict for the win. I'll definitely be testing that out.

GreenOne
01-11-2008, 07:17 PM
Playing 2 or 3 copies of Wort can be effective against 2xPlague I guess.
You play a Wort. Next turn you take back Wort#2, the next turns you recur Weirdings till you clear the path and slowly kill with your 1/1. If they kill your Wort, you play the 2nd one and return the first one next turn. Sure, the kill is quite slow with a 1/1 and it's impossible if they have something like Manlands+Crucible, but goblins never had such possibilities.

You can even get your kill faster if you play tarfire, but I don't think it's worth the slot.

Adan
01-12-2008, 12:58 PM
Hey. Go read Goblin Piledriver again. What's the first thing in the text box?

I'm not going to bother explaining Tarmogoyf over Piledriver. It involves a lot of shiny object references, and if you can't see how stupidly overpowered Tarmogoyf is in every deck, well then, I just can't help you.

If you are convinced that you want to play a non-Goblin vanilla beater over Goblin Piledriver, who is one of the most dangerous Goblins, this thread is obviously the wrong place for you and there's no way to help you7convince you that the idea is STUPID LIKE HELL. I one played against Goblins with Goyf, but replacing Piledrivers with Tarmogoyfs in Goblins would be somehow like... replacing Ichorid's Lion's Eye Diamonds with "One with Nothing".

We also mainly just run creatures, so we can't support Tarmogoyf as properly like NQG can with it's cantrips and Predict on SDT. But I already see what you are plannig to do, you will run Tarfires!

But every non-Goblin creature makes Ringleader worse. That's why the inclusion of Goyf isn't such a good idea.

GreenOne
01-12-2008, 03:52 PM
There was a time when goblin didn't have (tribal) way outs for opposing Goyfs outside of Gempalm (When do you have 5+goblins on board?). People tried to solve the problem in different manners: the White splash ran MD stp, the Black splash ran Smother/Snuff Out, etc, the green splash ran Tarmogoyfs.

Playing Tarmos in goblins was counterintuitive (it's not a goblin, the deck just has 3 types of cards in grave, etc) however, it worked for some time as a necessary evil to answer opposing tarmos.

With Morningtide out however, the problem is solved by the new edict, that allows shenanigans with Wort too and has synergy with the rest of the deck. Aggro control should be easyer and playing Tarmo should be out of question, unless one (for a reason I can't understand) decide to play a Rg gobbos deck. I'm testing a version with 3 Wort, 4 "New Edict" and 1-2 Gempalms and It improves the aggro-control (mainly thresh) match a lot.

Shriekmaw
01-13-2008, 12:55 PM
Thank you very much.

I don't like Tarmogoyf MB, but it seems fine in the SB.


I'm not quite sure why you would bother even running it in the board?

I would rather devote board slots to help improve my bad matchups. I'm not sure what your metagame over there is, but I have to deal with combo so 6 slots in my board is devoted to that matchup.

It seems like a lot of times the only matchup where I lose is to combo and its quite frustrating.

Tarmogoyf does not belong in Goblins, period.

Mental
01-13-2008, 02:07 PM
Tarmogoyf is decent in all of your MUs but Combo. Against Thresh it's nice to have (probably better than Piledriver) and it's also fine in the mirror. That said, I don't run it in my SB. I'm just saying that I can see running it in the SB.

Stooghenstein
01-13-2008, 05:11 PM
Tarmogoyf does not belong in Goblins, period.

Thats what I was trying to point out, he has no synergy with the deck at all.

TeenieBopper
01-13-2008, 06:03 PM
It doesn't need to be synergistic. It does a damn good job of being stupidly overpowered.

Look, it's never worse than Goblin Piledriver, unless you're swinging with four other goblins, in which case you were winning that game anyways.

ParkerLewis
01-13-2008, 06:35 PM
It doesn't need to be synergistic. It does a damn good job of being stupidly overpowered.

Look, it's never worse than Goblin Piledriver, unless you're swinging with four other goblins, in which case you were winning that game anyways.

Now you're not being honest.

It's ALREADY worse than piledriver when you're swinging with only 2 other goblins (Seriously : 6 power, although not rare, is NOT common for a Goyf. It's usually 4 or 5).
It's REALLY, REALLY worse than piledriver when you're playing a Ringleader.
It's REALLY, REALLY worse than piledriver when you have a Goblin Warchief out. (and of course I'm not even referring to the mana).

On a final note, it's also worse than piledriver when you want to gempalm something (granted, this case is far less important than the others).

So... Piledriver vs Goyf is a non-problem. It's piledriver, end of story. Now, you might be able to stick it in some of other slot, but that's another story.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-13-2008, 06:44 PM
It's worse than Piledriver when you don't draw it but you draw Matron, or when you play Ringleader and flip it, or when you have Warchief in play, or Incinerator in hand and Goyf in play and are short 1 damage to kill some opposing creature.


3 mana is a high average cc. When a little less than a third of your deck can't be played before turn 3, your deck is not going to work in Legacy. Or, at the very least, work the way you want it to. You just won't have mana for the cards you want.

Except that that all ready describes Goblins.

4x Ringleader
4x Matron
4x Warchief
2-3x SGC
1-2x Wort

= 15-17 3cc or higher spells, not including that Incinerator usually doesn't start performing til turn 3 or later.

The list I'm proposing actually speeds that up a bit by running Tomb over Wasteland.


Piledriver would hold the same role as Earwig Squad, and would be the only thing I would want to cut for it. However, Piledriver always costs 2, where Earwig Squad costs 3 probably a little more than half the time. Piledriver also costs 1 with a Warchief out, and can swing in that turn, as opposed to Earwig Squad which costs 4 if you want to use it as a hasty beater with Warchief. It replaces Piledriver's role poorly, and is really crappy to find when you flip it with a Ringleader you didn't Vial/Lackey in.

If you're hardcasting Ringleader, you probably weren't doing anything else that turn anyway. So that's irrelevant.

Earwig Squad is also infinitely better on his own than Piledriver, or with only minimal support. Piledriver requires either Warchief shenanigans, or over-commiting to the board. Earwig is a pretty strong threat all on its own.


Secondly, when I say 'there's better alternatives', I'm not talking about slots in the deck, I'm talking about cards in your hand that you want to cast with mana open. If I had the choice between casting Earwig Squad and basically any other card in the deck, I would almost never take the Earwig Squad. Your 3cc and 4cc slots are jammed full of cards that are better than Earwig Squad by orders of magnitude.

I'm going to point out that this all ready contradicts your first point.

They're not better "by orders of magnitude". In some situations it's more beneficial to draw cards. Against a lot of decks, it's more advantageous to remove a key card and put more pressure on the table. Against Survival, for instance, or any deck running sweepers, or very few kill conditions, or combo decks. Nor does playing Earwig Squad exclude playing Matron or Ringleader next turn(or even this turn). The deck runs so many mana cheats that the argument that it's in an over-crowded cc slot doesn't really matter.


Unless you're playing a deck in which Earwig Squad is really good against, you'll only want to be casting Earwig Squad when there's no other cards in your hand, because it costs enough that it won't be until the late game when you'll be able to cast it and other things on the same turn.


Think about it. It's the worst card in your deck, but by the nature of its ability, you want to be playing it as fast as possible. That's about the worst dissynergy I could think of, tribal or not.

That's completely off base. It's the worst card in the deck only in specific match-ups. In other match-ups, Incinerator or Tin Street are the worst cards in the deck. Or Fanatic, or Piledriver. But like those cards, Earwig shines in many match-ups, and because of its tribal nature is never as bad as a non-tribal alternative(Thoughtseize, Thorn) would be.


Conditional means it's got to have prerequisite conditions before it's good, or even playable. Early-to-mid game against Survival without them having an active Survival, hitting your land drops, hell, even having a creature that can swing through reliably, all of those are conditions that make the scenario in which Earwig Squad is better than the other cards in your deck plausible. How often are you going to draw a 2-of in the early-mid game without them having a Survival active(which is a 4-of for them), with enough early creatures(because they play creatures too) that you can actually cast it for its prowl cost? How likely is this scenario?

The following card combinations will give you a turn 2 Earwig;

Turn 1 Lackey > Turn 2 Connect, Warchief > Earwig
Turn 1 Lackey > Turn 2 Matron, Ancient Tomb > Earwig
Turn 1 Lackey > Turn 2 Ringleader, Ancient Tomb > Earwig
Turn 1 Fanatic > Turn Tomb, Earwig

None of those requires more than two additional cards. Scenarios in which you don't draw Earwig are irrelevant, because the card in question is Earwig, and it's no less likely to be drawn than any other card, but has the bonus of being tutorable with Matron or FoFable with Ringleader. If it's drawn in the late-game, it will usually be no worse than Piledriver, and often better, since it's a substantial threat on it own.


Not to mention, once your opponent gets any kind of actual creature threats, your Earwig Squad will always cost 5, unless your opponent is racing you, which he might do because you made your deck slow as fuck.

Were they having a going out of business sale at the hyperbole store?

Have you PLAYED Goblins? Do you have any idea how high your curve is? Or are you just deluding yourself into thinking its still an aggro deck?


Something else you're overlooking is that if you feel the necessity to cut some Piledrivers, you make the chance that you'll be able to play Earwig Squad for its Prowl cost even smaller because you don't have any creatures that can swing. Maybe you kept a few lands and a few big creatures and a Vial in your opening hand. in this scenario, Earwig Squad is terrible.

Like what? I really don't consider this relevant. You're not exactly going to be emptying this hand at record pace anyway, so having an additional card stuck in your hand because you don't know how to mulligan isn't exactly a smoking gun, chief.


Kiki-jiki terrible. Goblin Goon terrible. It's a dead card if you don't have the creatures to get the damage in with, and you only have 10-12 creatures that cost 2 or less now. Those aren't good odds for you, especially if your opponent also has a creature.

If aren't getting out guys early, and your opponent is, what good is Piledriver?

Nihil Credo
01-13-2008, 06:59 PM
I won't pretend to have more than basic experience with Goblins, but I can tell the difference between Piledriver and Earwig: you play Piledriver and then attack into and through your opponent's blockers, whereas you have to attack through your opponent's blockers to play Earwig in the first place.

Or let's put it like this: you go land, Lackey/Fanatic. The opponent kills it, counters it, or plays a blocker. With Piledriver, you shrug and play it anyway - it will still be a big threat in a turn or two. Earwig instead just got Time Stretched.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-13-2008, 09:01 PM
The thing is that if you lose your 1 drop, Piledriver is only a big threat if you have a Chief or hit the late-game. He's a Squire on his own. He's obviously a different function than Earwig, but my point is that people are making a move away from Piledriver anyway - he's just not particularly good in a lot of match-ups.

Stooghenstein
01-13-2008, 11:02 PM
It doesn't need to be synergistic. It does a damn good job of being stupidly overpowered.

Look, it's never worse than Goblin Piledriver, unless you're swinging with four other goblins, in which case you were winning that game anyways.

I don't care if a card is stupidly overpowered the only way to get him in play is through drawing him, where as piledriver has many ways to get searched for. Running tarmogoyf over piledriver is straight up pointless, in my honest opinion running tarmogoyf in general in goblins is pointless and your only conforming with the rest of the players and running tarmogoyf in every deck.

TheCramp
01-14-2008, 09:58 AM
I don't think it's the real deal. Connecting with lackey after clearing the path with Warren Weirding means probably you've won anyway, even if you drop a Ringleader to massive card advantage and speed bust, or a Wort that starts recurring Weirding. I'd up the Wort count before adding Gang Bang Commanders.

(hello all, I'm a dirty goblins player, but I never post in this thread. Read it though. On to the observations...)

I have been testing Warren Weirding (-1 Gem Palm, -1 Piledriver, -1 Mogg F. I run 2 Wort and 1 Siege Gang. since people have been talking about that ratio.) I have been testing against Black thresh, White thresh, and Dragon Stompy.

It has changed these matches match profoundly. I don't have enough testing done to say what the percentage is, but it matters a great deal. It can't slip under counter magic, but Wort does, and has put me in the hilarious position of taking the control position. (which I love, for the irony of playing control with a RB deck full of creatures against a Uwg deck full of permission. Warms my heart. Also, I built goblins back in the deck to play test against the control decks I loved so. I have been a dirty goblins fan ever since. Landstill does lead to harder drugs as it turns out...)

After testing, I came to the following conclusions:

1) Put in a basic swamp.

Wasteland kept me of Warren Weirding a number of times. Vial and Lacky obviously don't fix mana for Warren Weirding, and this change had a notable effect. I cut a port for it, so as to not effect my red count.

2) I'm thinking of cutting a matron for the 4th Warren Weirding.

I was tutoring for it so frequently, this seems like the right move, but I would rather test against decks where Warren Weirding is weaker before making that sort of move.

GreenOne
01-14-2008, 10:43 AM
I have been testing Warren Weirding (-1 Gem Palm, -1 Piledriver, -1 Mogg F. I run 2 Wort and 1 Siege Gang.


I'd never cut Piledriver or Fanatics for Weirding as it doesn't fill the same role. Weirding is IMO a substitute/addition to Gempalms, that took the creature removal slots in the last years. Piledriver is sort of "finisher" in the deck and Fanatic is general utility (against grave-based combo decks, fish decks, Jitte, etc)
As I suggested a couple of pages ago, I'd play that list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [b] Badlands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

Note that the list is 58 cards so you can add 2 goblins of choice depending on meta (Goblin tinkerer, Sharpshooter, more Gempalms, Mad Auntie...), but I see no reason to cut Fanatics, Piledrivers and Matrons (especially Matrons from the deck)



After testing, I came to the following conclusions:

1) Put in a basic swamp.

Wasteland kept me of Warren Weirding a number of times. Vial and Lacky obviously don't fix mana for Warren Weirding, and this change had a notable effect. I cut a port for it, so as to not effect my red count.


I'm with you on this, I didn't find port that effective anymore in this meta. I'm down to 2 at the moment, but maybe I'll cut one or both in the future, depending on cards I decide to run and meta.



2) I'm thinking of cutting a matron for the 4th Warren Weirding.

I was tutoring for it so frequently, this seems like the right move, but I would rather test against decks where Warren Weirding is weaker before making that sort of move.

Don't do it. Matron is the Demonic Tutor of the deck, it allows shenanigans with warchief and Piledriver, tutors for Removal against aggro-control, but it's great too vs control, where it's part of your card advantage machine (tutors for Ringleader/Wort).

What results did you put up in youre testing? Bad thing Weirdings sucks hard in the mirror, but I can see the aggro-control matchup much become a lot better.

MadManMax
01-14-2008, 12:17 PM
I really like this recent list, but I'm going to run Rgb version for 4x Krosan Grip sb to stand a chance against those Plagues and Explosives, which are really popular in my meta.
I aslo like to play 2x of both Wort and Commander to have a better late game.

List that I'm testing:

// Creatures
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [b] Badlands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
5 [7E] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [b] Taiga

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void

I'll post my testing results a bit later.

dlevsApiJ
01-21-2008, 02:05 PM
My list with black after morningtide:

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [RAV] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [U] Badlands
2 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [US] Planar Void

Its 61 cards, so what is the best to cut...
And should Frogtosser Banneret be good enough, since it cost 2 mana. As 5th "warchief"?
And what about the SB? I cant choose between Void/Tormods Crypt(/Leyline)

Mvg

Don Tamac
01-21-2008, 04:50 PM
I know someone mentioned it, but I don't remember the reasoning for not including the card... But wouldn't Hull Breach be considered for the SB? Kills enchantments, kills artefacts...

I'm planning on bringing it in instead of shattering spree or some other remover since enchantments is the greatest enemy to the deck IMO.

Will test it first...

Slay
01-21-2008, 04:58 PM
I know someone mentioned it, but I don't remember the reasoning for not including the card... But wouldn't Hull Breach be considered for the SB? Kills enchantments, kills artefacts...

I'm planning on bringing it in instead of shattering spree or some other remover since enchantments is the greatest enemy to the deck IMO.

Will test it first...

How about because Krosan Grip is almost strictly better?
-Slay

TeenieBopper
01-21-2008, 05:01 PM
This is going to be my list after Morningtide

6 Fetch
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Waste
4 Mountain

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
4 Weirding
1 Tin Street
1 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Warchief
1 Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Ringleader
2 Wort
3 Siege Gang

Board will look something like this:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Xx

I'm not sure what's going to go in the open slots. I've got a lot of room now that I don't have to run Terminate out of the board. Maybe some actual Combo hate, but I doubt it. Storm combo still sucks.

Re: Hull Breech- If you're splashing green, why wouldn't you just run Krosan Grip instead?

Re: Mogg Fanatic- Don't ever run less than four. Ever. He's seriously that good. Probably better.

Re: The new warchief- it sucks. Don't play it.

Re: Basic swamps- In two color, maybe. In three color, no. Just no. Here's an idea, just run the fourth Badlands. Your opponent is running four Wastelands, there's no reason why you shouldn't run four badlands. I'd run Auntie's Hovel over a basic swamp.

Re: Goblin Piledriver- Still sucks. Don't be afraid to run less than four copies.

dlevsApiJ
01-21-2008, 05:22 PM
Yeah, i saw a time ago you played less then 4, I was thinking of 3 (maybe 2),, but 1 looks to "random" for me...

I think I gonna test your list, and change it to my meta..

Mvg

EDIT: o, I see you play 61 cards,, what should you cut ;)?

Van Phanel
01-21-2008, 06:10 PM
Great thing to see other people cutting Piledrivers, I've been playing with three since shortly after Tarmogoyf has become the nuisance that it is and I tinkered around with Mogg War Marshals (they are really good against any non-goblin aggro and Treshhold, while providing goblins in play for stronger Incinerators). I guess I would still like 2 Piledrivers to provide at least some clock against combo.

@Teenie-Bopper: 4 Siege-Gangs? Seriously? I know they're good, but still four seems like overkill. Are they really needed that much that two or three wouldn't be enough? Also your list screams Port. You have nothing to do in turn 2 so some Ports should be good. I don't speak about 4, just two or maybe 3 Ports, 3 Wastelands (seeing Port as a 2-drop).

On another note, has anybody considered Pernicious Deed out of the board? It can kill the whole board against ********, and removes multiple Engineered Plagues as well (+ nearly any creature your opponent has in play), basically it would work as a more brutal whie less subtile Explosives. Sure your Vials will suffer some collateral damage but as long as Wort and Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs (sometimes the 3-mana goblins too) will survive I'm fine with that.

- Van

Stooghenstein
01-21-2008, 10:28 PM
This is going to be my list after Morningtide

6 Fetch
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Waste
4 Mountain

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
4 Weirding
1 Tin Street
1 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Warchief
1 Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Ringleader
2 Wort
3 Siege Gang

Board will look something like this:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Xx

I'm not sure what's going to go in the open slots. I've got a lot of room now that I don't have to run Terminate out of the board. Maybe some actual Combo hate, but I doubt it. Storm combo still sucks.

Re: Hull Breech- If you're splashing green, why wouldn't you just run Krosan Grip instead?

Re: Mogg Fanatic- Don't ever run less than four. Ever. He's seriously that good. Probably better.

Re: The new warchief- it sucks. Don't play it.

Re: Basic swamps- In two color, maybe. In three color, no. Just no. Here's an idea, just run the fourth Badlands. Your opponent is running four Wastelands, there's no reason why you shouldn't run four badlands. I'd run Auntie's Hovel over a basic swamp.

Re: Goblin Piledriver- Still sucks. Don't be afraid to run less than four copies.


Yeah Umm, 1 Piledriver, piledriver has been goblins finisher and always should be.. wort should be a one, Piledriver should be a 4 of it is what wins goblins a lot of its games

TeenieBopper
01-21-2008, 11:04 PM
Blah blah blah, piledriver can get a big front end, he r0xx0rs my s0xx0rs, blah blah blah.


Insert everything I said about Goblin Piledriver being the worst goblin in the deck here.

Galroth
01-21-2008, 11:13 PM
I'm not an avid Goblins player, though I've always appreciated what it brings to the format. One question though: why is Thorn of Amethyst not a mainstay? Wasn't there more than a little testing showing how good it was? I've been considering building a mono-red version of the deck with including Thorn of Amethyst. Suggestions?

MadManMax
01-22-2008, 09:17 AM
Why not to run the damn 4x Piledrivers? :mad: (even the Tarmogoyf can't block it and survive ussually), Piledrivers eat all the decks that can't stop them in time and they also have a lot of sinergy with Weirding: sac my 1/1 for two 1/1s with haste, swing with huge Piledriver... Yes, today's Goblins need some inovations, but cutting one of the most imporatant cards of the deck is not the way to go...

Illissius
01-22-2008, 01:00 PM
What about running some Ancient Tombs in the space freed by cutting Ports?

Galroth: The problem with Thorn was that it came down too late and didn't affect Tarmogoyf, IIRC.

TeenieBopper
01-22-2008, 06:44 PM
Why not to run the damn 4x Piledrivers? :mad: (even the Tarmogoyf can't block it and survive ussually), Piledrivers eat all the decks that can't stop them in time and they also have a lot of sinergy with Weirding: sac my 1/1 for two 1/1s with haste, swing with huge Piledriver... Yes, today's Goblins need some inovations, but cutting one of the most imporatant cards of the deck is not the way to go...

I can't believe I'm doing this. Again. I should probably type up like a 5 page thing on why Goblin Piledriver sucks balls and just copy and paste it every couple weeks.

Goblin Piledriver is not one of the most important cards in the deck. In fact, it's one of the least important. The only card I'd even consider cutting before Piledriver is Sharpshooter and/or Tin Street, and that's only because of metagame considerations.

Look, here's what it comes down to: in the situations where Goblin Piledriver is really good (where you're swinging unhindered with 2+ dudes and Piledriver), you were already going to win anyways. He's awful on his own, and does nothing but turn sideways. He doesn't offer any utility whatsoever. He could be a Goblin Balloon Brigade and you'd hardly notice the difference. In fact, I'd almost rather have Goblin Balloon Brigade because at least he has evasion.

But you know what? Goblin Piledriver is a good finisher. Oh, hey... how many copies of Tendrils of Agony does TES run?

@ Ancient Tomb- That's not a totally awful idea, but the reason I cut Port in the first place was to increase color consistancy. You probably could add Tomb, but I think you'd have to take the deck in a different, "non-vial" direction with all the big goblins (Goon, maybe Mutant, 4x Siege Gang), with Chrome Mox and possibly Seething Song to help power them out. I guess a suicide goblins list. But at that point, I don't see why you wouldn't just play Dragon Stompy.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-22-2008, 07:06 PM
@ Ancient Tomb- That's not a totally awful idea, but the reason I cut Port in the first place was to increase color consistancy. You probably could add Tomb, but I think you'd have to take the deck in a different, "non-vial" direction with all the big goblins (Goon, maybe Mutant, 4x Siege Gang), with Chrome Mox and possibly Seething Song to help power them out. I guess a suicide goblins list. But at that point, I don't see why you wouldn't just play Dragon Stompy.

I don't think the second part is necessary. It does encourage you to run bigger guys, but why should that necessarily mean dropping Vial or adding Seething Song?

Media314r8
01-22-2008, 07:48 PM
I have been playing legacy gobs for nearly three years now, and I have no idea how people can justify cutting drivers for edicts. I see MB sharpshooters, who are even LESS useful than drivers, as well as one-ofs tin-streets. WTH are you going to do with tin street as a one-of?!?! By the time you matron for him, you probably (darn well better) have warchief on board, in which case tin-street is just a 2/1 for R, and if you are playing him turn four/five after matroning withOUT a warcheif, you probably just lost that game.

My biggest qualm with where people are taking goblins is that there have been decreasing numbers of drivers, and NO (!!!) MB disruption other than mana-denial. How does goblins expect to win a game 1 vs combo with only 1 driver and no disruption??? Planning on winning games 2 AND three vs combo seems godaweful, especially since more of your SB will be devoted to beating said combo deck, as you will HAVE to open with a hate card or its a match loss. I must insist that anyone posting in this thread at least TRIES MB thorn of amethyst. I have found it useful in the thresh mathcup, (granted, not AS useful as a wierding or incinerator, but it does make thresh pay 1U for every cantrip, as well as helping you against FoW and daze.) at the least, its never a dead cards, and really only hurts your wierding. (which wil only cost 1B if you have both a thorn and a chief in play anyway) Thorn is a mediocre card against creature based decks, but it really annoys control deck, and is actually just a one-sided sphere of resistance vs combo. (nice lotus petal/rite of flame/chrome mox idiot)

The slowing of golbins clock ala removing drivers and the absence of disruption MB spells an almost auto-gameloss and possibly a matchloss vs combo, why rish this just to pack in more 'cool' into lists that have been top 8ing for years and years (with cabal therapy or duress MB, and certainly thorn or thoughtseize is superior)

Shriekmaw
01-22-2008, 08:05 PM
This is going to be my list after Morningtide

6 Fetch
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Waste
4 Mountain

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
4 Weirding
1 Tin Street
1 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Warchief
1 Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Ringleader
2 Wort
3 Siege Gang




After Morningtide, I would run the following list.

R/b/g Vial Goblins

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Weirding
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Tin Street Hooligan

SB

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter


I think after Morningtide becomes legal, its very important to cut port for more additional color sources of mana if your going to run Warren Wierding.

I don't like to play Chalice of the Void in the board, but I'm sick of losing to combo around here, so I added it back in.

I think the deck is pretty solid and still very good.

TeenieBopper
01-22-2008, 08:08 PM
Because you're not going to beat combo anyways.

Media314r8
01-22-2008, 09:06 PM
My teammate and I test the TES matchup regularly with goblins. I have an average of 40% wins pre board and 55% post boards against TES with the following list (the solidarity matchup was more favorable, but we stopped testing that long before I bothered to actually record match wins/loses):

// Lands
6 [UNH] Mountain
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [B] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [ON] Goblin Sledder
1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey

// Spells
2 [10E] Cruel Edict (warren wierding)
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [10E] Cruel Edict (warren wierding)
SB: 1 [10E] Goblin King
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [ST] Goblin Settler
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

the Goblins settler is for the 43 land matchup and any other random decks packing tabernacle and or volrath's stronghold, ect. I find the 5 'goblin king' package better than splashing green for grips, as it allows for a more stable manabase. (5 kings > 4 plagues) Sledder is also better against bridge/jitte/goose blocking lackey/helping mad auntie survive pyroclasm, but worse against bob/mirror match/mom. (personal choice) Tinkerer > Tin street with warchief on the board, and kills the heck out of naughts, needles, and art lands all day.

I also had a favorable thresh matchup with this build, as my other team mate kyle paster can attest to with his UGr build. chaining cantrips + thorn + wasteland = fail

raharu
01-22-2008, 10:00 PM
Sex list

Could you benefit from more MD mad Aunties? Maybe 1 more in a Piledriver's slot (4 is a little excessive)? The Goblin Sledder is pretty solid, and I've always wondered why I haven't seen it more in Goblin lists. I must say,you list does look a little removal-lite. Is that metagamed, of have you just found that you don't need any more? How are the Cabal Therapy without having the 4th?

Media314r8
01-22-2008, 10:54 PM
Goblins kinda' COUNT as removal, as usually people are forced to block drivers, lackeys, ect. Auntie and sledder help a lot here, and the three MB removal spells are about on par with the lists that were run a year ago or so. IMO, 4 goblin edicts is too many, and though it IS powerful, and it will get lackey there against many decks, thresh still has daze and FoW for turn two edict, and I'd much rather have DRAWN and CAST drivers and TUTOR for my removal in a vacuum. (read: against combo or control decks) The main downfall of edict, and my reason for running just two, is that it can be COUNTERED. Everyone sees that it kills goyf, but people have recently failed to see why gempalm was run in the first place over smother (though more conditional) gempalm says 'no' to control/aggro/control. You have vial for your guys, and uncounterable removal. An edict is sorcery speed, can't use vial tricks in the middle of combat, and can be countered. Wort also makes your removal inevitable late game, and 1 edict in grave might as well be two in hand. Having the nuts start with an unblocked lackey, but if the deck is concentrated on that '2 card-ish' combo (also contingent upon having a ringleader or SCG in hand) then the late-game plan suffers, and goblins shines in the mid-late game with it's CA and vial-shenanigans. My build is fine with winning on a nuts lackey draw, but plans on winning a normal 4-7 turn game, and is very well prepared to go into the late game.

In my metagame, I want a fast clock against combo, not dead cards in hand. Against aggro-control and Thresh, I have no problems trading y attacking driver for their goyf, as goblins naturally has CA in the late game, and matrons and wort will ensure that your drivers come back for more while thresh has no recursion or CA, just CQ. Goyfs can't race drivers, and drivers serve at least to keep goyf on blocking detail until you can get into the lategame and win with CA. I find that 1 Auntie MD is enough, as she is very 'meh' to see in an opener, but the nuts to tutor for after you have a driver, or via vial to aid in a team block and regen whoever was assigned lethal damage.

My mentality has allways been as follows with multiples of cards:
4- if you want to see this card in every opener, and more than one of these during the course of a game.
3- You want to see one during the course of a game, and dont mind one in the opener.
2- You don't want this in your opening hand, and you would prefer not to see it twice during a game (EX: legendary lands like urborg, coffers, or vol's hold)
1- You are tutoring for it, otherwise you probably wont see it.

I want a therapy against combo and control decks, (or decks likely boarding in 4 E plagues) but an opener with 3 lands, 2 therapies, and 2 of card X is cuts. (I usually fetch basic mountain first, then swamps when needed, or fetch two mountains first if I have a dual in hand) Against storm or fast combo, I want to see two chalices or Thorns, as they both get better in multiples. However, C therapy in mults is only the nuts if you have something like SCG, which is more likely to happen late game, when you might see your second C Therapy. (I've tried Thoughtseize in this slot and am still on the fence, as therapy is better against thresh and in the mirror, but therapy has the potential for massive CA and can wreck in the mirror depending on how much info you have. (matrons, ringleaders, ect)

raharu
01-23-2008, 12:25 AM
I see your point on the Aunties, and an agro deck really doesn't need gobs of removal, although I would think that recuring/ regenerating Piledrivers is a really solid/ game-breaking play and you might want 2x Auntie. Really though, Matron makes Aunties/ Worts 2-5, so the extras aren't needed. Again, nice list.

GreenOne
01-23-2008, 03:53 AM
List
I see a lack of fanatics, as you run Sledder in their place. I don't think this is necessarily wrong, but would you justify it? It could bring some nice discussion that helps thinking outside of the box.

However, as much as I like Sledder in it's way of screweing combat math, Fanatic probably has the biggest raw power of the 2. Its ability to shut up Lackey blockers, negate card advantage (kill confidant), partly screw combat math, Kill combo pieces (Cephalids, En-khor, Imperial Recruiters) and goodness versus Ichorid (both can remove Bridge, but fanatic kills an Ichorid while doing that).

Media314r8
01-23-2008, 09:34 AM
I think i've discussed this but heres the pors/cons of fanatic vs sledder:

//Sledder//
Pros:
Screws Jitte and bridge repeatedly (my main reason, as goblins almost scoops to jittte)
If you have a mad auntie/king out and someone pyroclasms, sledder lets all of your X/2 guys survive (and half of the X/1 guys)
Sledder gets a lackey through a goose (well, lackey might not connect, but lackey survives and goose bites it) whereas fanatic sits there looking sad
Sledder can come in through vial and ruin someone's day with math
Sledder is tinkerer's BFF (other than the one-of mad auntie) as he can help tinkerers kill and survive jittes, platings, crucibles, ect.
The single most important goblin in the ULTRA late-game (sledder and dual mad auntie helped me win aagainst a WR rifter deck sliding tividar AND hierarch late game after dropping two SCGs- EPIC combat)
Cons:
Doesnt kill bob, mom, or other important X/1 guys (though gempalm seems better at this, if only slightly more mana intensive, but generates CA)
Isn't as relavent in the mirror (depending on what they bring in, if sharpshooter, I'd rather have fanatic, if kinesis/jitte, I'd rather have sledder, but either way, sledder doesnt kill an opposing lackey like fanatic

//Fanatic//
Pros:
Kills bob, mom, illusionist (if not online or protected) ect
RFGs a bridge and kills an ichorid at the ame time
more aggresive in nature, doesnt need friends to play with
Stops jitte once, possibly killing the wielder and preventing counters
better at making lackey CONNECT if your opponent has an X/1 blocker (less likely nowadays, as it'll probably be a goose,plated sliver or a treefolk harbinger if anything at all, other decks simply have discarded it as 'if it happens, if have force or i lose'

Cons:
Not reusable like sledder
less relevant in the late-game
Doesnt help anything survive pyroclasm/ -2/-2 effects

IMO, its personal preferance, but I enjoy having something that has re-usability, and something that helps me kill the otherwise meddlesome goose.

Don Tamac
01-23-2008, 03:32 PM
To TeenieBopper and others:

I do run grips, but consider this: CC 2, fits the mana curve better than grips and thus gives you more outs to threatening cards...

Of course, it's a meta call, but in a hate heavy meta like the one I play in there's a lot of threats that's either enchantment or artefact. It also have a better CA than grips because it could get two targets.

I do agree that grip is strictly better, but why so quickly dismiss suggestions without even consider it beyond the obvious? Is it that inconceivable to have both in the sideboard?

TeenieBopper
01-23-2008, 03:44 PM
Considering you only have 15 slots in your board, yeah, I do think it's pretty inconcievable. I mean, you're not going to run Demistify and Crumble in your board when you can just as easily run Disenchant or Naturalize (or Krosan Grip), are you? Sure, Hull Breech fits the curve better, and I mean, I guess if they have both Humility and Vedalken Shackles in play Hull Breech might be better. But Krosan Grip is superior in every other way. It can't be countered, and it's at least playable around CounterTop.

The point is, you're severely limited to how many effects you can have in your sideboard. Pick the card that has the most versatility (hence me running Explosives in my board) and don't waste slots on two cards that do the exact same thing.

asdljas
01-23-2008, 05:09 PM
What about earwig squad on the Prowl against storm combo? Most combo decks don't block, so why not pay three and neuter the combo? This assumes, of course, that we got to the three mana necessary (which may be a bad assumption). If we back it up with some sort of other disruption, such as therapy or thoughtseize, it could help us make it to the three mana requirement. Thoughts?

TeenieBopper
01-23-2008, 05:18 PM
See Page 41.

savemysoul
01-23-2008, 06:22 PM
i don`t seem to get why you say driver is a sucky card, its probably one of the best goblins ever made

Sims
01-23-2008, 07:35 PM
i don`t seem to get why you say driver is a sucky card, its probably one of the best goblins ever made

He's got a lot of competition for one of the best goblins ever made. I'd certainly put Warchief, Lackey, Mogg fanatic, and possibly others ahead of Piledriver as PD is nothing without them, Warchief in particular. If it wasn't for those aforementioned cards, Piledriver would be a dime rare used in casual decks. He's good and he hits for a lot, but he's by no means the corner stone of the deck. Hell, even without Tarmogoyf in my list like Mike, I was contemplating dropping the Piledriver count to make room for more utility and removal. I am not totally fond of Goyf in Goblins but I'm also not going to argue with the fact that without turn 1 lackey swinging into a warchief/Siege Gang drop that Tarmogoyf is simply a better turn 2 play than Piledriver most often.

jj2423
01-24-2008, 02:35 PM
Here is my build post Morningtide:

1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mad Auntie
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Mad Auntie
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void

1) How many creature destruction spells do you think should be run? I went with 5, but I have seen some posts with 6.

2) Is a small splash of green worth it for Krosan Grip?

3) I had a maindeck Tin Street, but took it out for a second Wort. Was this a good move?

4) What do you think of my list?

Media314r8
01-25-2008, 08:20 AM
I think you're missing piledrivers. At LEAST 1 should be included as a tutor-target so you can end the game now if you need to/are able to. Without drivers, i dont think gobs can beat FS and most fast combo. Definatly dont even stand a chance in heck game one with this build.

jj2423
01-25-2008, 08:40 AM
I am running four PD.

Media314r8
01-25-2008, 08:25 PM
my bad, oversight on my part. you may want to run a one-of sharpshooter for EtW tokens or a 1 of tinkerer for opposing vials, needles, jittes, and the entire affinity deck. My recomendation:

-1 Wort
+1 tinkerer/sharpshooter (depending on meta)

jj2423
01-26-2008, 08:15 PM
Thanks for the input!

GiantGrowth
01-30-2008, 10:46 PM
What about some sort of split between fanatic and sledder? Each of them has the pros and cons stated, so why not just use both?

TeenieBopper
01-30-2008, 10:49 PM
Because Fanatic is just better.

Tacosnape
01-30-2008, 10:52 PM
When/why did people start running Goblin Sledder, exactly? Does someone have an explanation as to why Goblin Sledder isn't complete crap?

TeenieBopper
01-30-2008, 10:53 PM
Apparently it has cool interactions with other shitty cards that shouldn't be run in goblins either.

jj2423
01-31-2008, 10:35 AM
I am new to legacy, with my current list below I do not have mainboard aftifact distruction. I was thinking of adding it as per Media314r8's recommendation. My meta contains a lot of Threshold Decks (lots of pyroclasms), Seething Slogger and R/G Sligh.

Should I have mainboard destruction dor the Jitte and Top?

Is Goblin Tinkerer better than Tin Street Holigan?

Does my side board address these decks in my meta? Any suggestions would be helpful.

Here is my build post Morningtide:

1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mad Auntie
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Mad Auntie
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void

Bovinious
01-31-2008, 01:32 PM
You probably should play 1 MD Tin-street to blow up problematic artifacts, its pretty much just better than Tinkerer.

Also Im not sure why youre running Mad Auntie, and also Im not sure 4 Weirding 1 Gempalm is right, but a split of them is probably best depending how many slots you have. In your list I would cut a Wort for a Tin-Street, and cut Mad Auntie for another Gempalm, and possibly cut some number of Weirdings for Gempalms, I havnt tested Weirding though so Im not sure how good it is compared to Gempalm.

For your Sb I would do away with the 1-ofs and play something like 4 Therapy, 4 Engineered Explosives, 4 Leyline, 3 Krosan Grip, although Im not sure Leyline is necessary in the meta you described, Crypt or Pyrokinesis may just be better.

Also, does anyone else think running Blood Moon Sb may be a good idea with all the Thresh/Landstill running around?

jj2423
01-31-2008, 03:38 PM
I think that you are right about the blood moons and I am going to add a few. Thanks for the input!

Tacosnape
01-31-2008, 10:37 PM
I've been running Blood Moon off and on in Goblins' sideboard for awhile now. I like it for the most part. I'm not entirely convinced it's necessary, but Goblins is certainly capable of running it without much difficulty in a metagame where it would be beneficial to do so.

Shriekmaw
02-01-2008, 09:18 PM
[COLOR=navy]

Here is my build post Morningtide:

1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mad Auntie
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Warren Weirding
4 Aether Vial

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Mad Auntie
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void



I would suggest on the following changes to the main deck.

-1 Mad Auntie
-1 Wort
-1 Warrens Wierding
-1 Piledriver
+1 Land (I believe 23 lands is the correct number to run in Goblins)
+1 Incinerator
+1 Tin Street Hooligan
+1 Goblin Sharpshooter (You can also add the 3rd Siege-Gang or the 2nd Wort if you really don't like sharpshooter)

SB (My Current Board)

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void

Jaynel
02-02-2008, 01:36 PM
I've been running a manabase of 23 lands, but with 2 Ancient Tombs.

3 Mires
3 Foothills
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb

I've been really happy with the 2 Tombs. They allow for a ton of awesome plays. You can skip your 2 drop (which is generally pretty terrible) and go straight into Matron. Dropping 2 Vials on turn 1 is rather awesome, or you can dodge Daze on the play if you're really good at reading Thresh players. Tomb is obviously good at powering out SGC and Wort, and it helps activate SGC's ability more easily (2 Mountains + Tomb to fling for 4, instead of 4 Mountains to do the same).

And my sideboard:
4 Leyline
4 Chalice
3 Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Meta Goblins (Goblins Sharpshooter, 2nd TSH, Goblin Tinkerer, etc)

Post board, I feel Tomb gets even better. Chalice at 1 on turn 1 is pretty busted against Threshold and storm based combo. It also makes Leyline somewhat realistic to hardcast if you draw into it. Krosan Grip can be cast more easily, too.

Some lists run 2 Ports in this slot, but I feel that the Vial + Port gameplan is just too slow in the meta today. Tomb helps ameliorate this issue and can really help speed up the clock game 1 and hasten the disruption games 2 and 3.

Illissius
02-02-2008, 07:07 PM
That's exactly what I was thinking of when I suggested Tomb a while back. Good to hear it works.

savemysoul
02-03-2008, 06:23 PM
How does CotV@1 go along with Lackey, Vial and Fanatic ?

TeenieBopper
02-03-2008, 06:41 PM
How does CotV@1 go along with Lackey, Vial and Fanatic ?

Turning off Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Swords is some good, I hear.

GreenOne
02-04-2008, 06:11 AM
How does CotV@1 go along with Lackey, Vial and Fanatic ?

Just side it in in place of Fanatics. If you play it turn 2 you have plenty of time of playing that lackey/vial in your hand on turn 1. Lackey and vial lose much of their power if played in turn >2 so it's not really that great deal.

asdljas
02-06-2008, 12:42 PM
What is the correct balance of Warren's Weirding, Gempalm Incinerator, and Mogg Fanatic in this deck? Assuming you have 10 slots or less for them, would this be acceptable?

3x Warren Weirding
3x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Mogg Fanatic

GreenOne
02-06-2008, 01:59 PM
Assuming you have 10 slots or less for them, would this be acceptable?

3x Warren Weirding
3x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Mogg Fanatic
I'd go with
4x Weirding
2x Gempalm
4x Fanatics

This is just because you want weirding early in the game and gempalm midgame.

Jaynel
02-06-2008, 02:26 PM
In Rgb builds, I'd go with 3 Weirding, 2 Incinerator, 4 Fanatic, and a Tin-Street Hooligan.

Media314r8
02-06-2008, 02:36 PM
When/why did people start running Goblin Sledder, exactly? Does someone have an explanation as to why Goblin Sledder isn't complete crap?

Reading is Tech.

//Sledder//
Pros:
Screws Jitte and bridge repeatedly (my main reason, as goblins almost scoops to jittte)
If you have a mad auntie/king out and someone pyroclasms, sledder lets all of your X/2 guys survive (and half of the X/1 guys)
Sledder gets a lackey through a goose (well, lackey might not connect, but lackey survives and goose bites it) whereas fanatic sits there looking sad
Sledder can come in through vial and ruin someone's day with math
Sledder is tinkerer's BFF (other than the one-of mad auntie) as he can help tinkerers kill and survive jittes, platings, crucibles, ect.
The single most important goblin in the ULTRA late-game (sledder and dual mad auntie helped me win aagainst a WR rifter deck sliding tividar AND hierarch late game after dropping two SCGs- EPIC combat)

Cons:
Doesnt kill bob, mom, or other important X/1 guys (though gempalm seems better at this, if only slightly more mana intensive, but generates CA)
Isn't as relavent in the mirror (depending on what they bring in, if sharpshooter, I'd rather have fanatic, if kinesis/jitte, I'd rather have sledder, but either way, sledder doesnt kill an opposing lackey like fanatic

//Fanatic//
Pros:
Kills bob, mom, illusionist (if not online or protected) ect
RFGs a bridge and kills an ichorid at the ame time
more aggresive in nature, doesnt need friends to play with
Stops jitte once, possibly killing the wielder and preventing counters
better at making lackey CONNECT if your opponent has an X/1 blocker (less likely nowadays, as it'll probably be a goose,plated sliver or a treefolk harbinger if anything at all, other decks simply have discarded it as 'if it happens, if have force or i lose'

Cons:
Not reusable like sledder
less relevant in the late-game
Doesnt help anything survive pyroclasm/ -2/-2 effects

EternalDragon09
02-10-2008, 06:00 PM
I just added warren weirding into my build let me know what everyone thinks.

Land
3 wasteland
3 rishadan port
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
2 taiga
2 badlands
4 mountain

Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Siege-gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tin-street Hooligan
1 Goblin King

Other
4 Aether Vial
3 Warren Weirding

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Tranquil Domain
1 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blast

TeenieBopper
02-10-2008, 06:35 PM
Goblin King sucks.

Where's Wort?

You're playing three colors maindeck (Weirding and Tin-Street), why are you only running two badlands and taigas?

Cut Rishadan Port.

Goblin King Sucks. Where
Is Wort? Three colors needs more
Duals. Cut Port, it sucks.

Nihil Credo
02-10-2008, 06:44 PM
That sounds better as a haiku:

Goblin King sucks. Wort?
Three colours need more duals
Cut Rishadan Port


Edit: I guess it's not a great DtB post. Mods can delete if needed.

Shriekmaw
02-10-2008, 07:10 PM
Goblin King sucks.

Where's Wort?

You're playing three colors maindeck (Weirding and Tin-Street), why are you only running two badlands and taigas?

Cut Rishadan Port.

Goblin King Sucks. Where
Is Wort? Three colors needs more
Duals. Cut Port, it sucks.


I agree with cutting Rishadan Port, with warren weirding in the deck, you have to add more duals to support it.

The mana base looks like this:

4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga

TeenieBopper
02-10-2008, 07:31 PM
Mine is actually

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
1 Swamp

Of course, I run more black cards out of the board, too.

Yes, I'm aware that I mocked the idea of running a basic swamp on the last page. I'm rescinding that comment. Wasteland on your black sources is the nut low.

xsockmonkeyx
02-10-2008, 08:03 PM
Of course, I run more black cards out of the board, too.

Begs the question: what does your board look like?

TeenieBopper
02-10-2008, 09:32 PM
It varies from week to week. The only constants seem to be:

4 Shriekmaw
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives

Jaynel
02-11-2008, 10:14 AM
Shriekmaw? To dodge Counterbalance? Would you mind sharing some rationale?

Lepp
02-11-2008, 11:56 AM
Tournament Report. Mono-Red, 3rd place.

First a bit about myself. I quit playing magic the first time around alliances I think. I started back I gues about 3 weeks ago. I'm way behind the experience/knowledge curve now.

I ran a mono-red goblin deck with what you would expect to see in a mono red goblin deck. I don't run sharpshooters, I run ports, I run tinkerer's.

Match 1 - MUC stasis
Game 1 & Game 2: all a blur, i cast goblins he counters goblins, I have more goblins than he has counters. He gets stasis down both games with no bounce, so i just poke him until he cant pay it anymore and the horde wins. He never got a threat down (high casting cost threats). Easy 2 games.
1-0

Match 2 - Suiblack
This is a friend, usually i win game 1 and he takes 2,3. He runs eng plague and contaminations.
Game 1: I build up faster than him, and kill him.
Game 2: Double engineered plague gg.
Game 3: we both build up and the sui part of his deck drains a lot of his life. I win by vialing in a warchief, casting siege gang, and having a goblin king in play. He had 1 eng explosive out.
2-0

Match 3 - Dragon Stompy (Tacosnape)
I loose first 2 games, bad draws, and a general lack of answers. He is able to cast more big creatures than I can small creatures. Hell just read his writeup in the DS thread.
2-1

Match 4 - Burn
Game 1 - I'm not able to build up for crap, and she is able to neutralize any threat I put out early, and then me.
Game 2 - I put in Thorn of Amethyst, and Pyrokinesis, and sadly dont come up with either. I still have bad draws and can't build up. Goes much like Game 1.
2-2

Semis -Burn (lucky me)
Game 1 - Goes much like previous game 1. I die.
Game 2 - I slow her down with thorns, but we actually both die the way a stack resolves.
Game 3 - I get some threats down with a less than ideal hand/draw, and she has bad luck. I win.
Game 4 - Goes much the same way as game 2 of the first match. I loose.

Somehow end up third, and store credit makes up for cost. I'm pretty happy with the way things went. I had some bad luck, made a few mistakes. I went in knowing that mono red gobs would probably be at a real disadvantage to some of the decks.

TeenieBopper
02-11-2008, 12:17 PM
Shriekmaw? To dodge Counterbalance? Would you mind sharing some rationale?

Eh, I guess if they're dumb enough to leave Counterbalance in games two and three it's all right. But it's mostly because it kills all the same shit that Terminate does for the same amount of mana and I have the option of getting a 3/2 evasion beater after turn 5.

Oh yeah, and I have a serious hard on for vialing him into play, 187 a (stupid fucking) Tarmogoyf and blocking/killing a Mongoose.

Nightmare
02-11-2008, 12:24 PM
As someone playing in TB's metagame, I'm seriously fucking scared of Aether Vial at 5 mana now.

EternalDragon09
02-14-2008, 07:12 PM
i really am sick of everyone talking about how Tarmogoyf is the nutz and cant be stopped unless you use shriekmaw or warren weirding. i have been playing vial goblins since darksteel was T2 legal. i believe after testing in local shops many weeks after future sight (goyf) was legal that he isn't that big of a threat to goblins. ok so you don't get the turn two lackey siege-gang, piledrive nutz but irrelevant you play more guys and don't be dumb and you almost can't loose i have tested against Landstill, Threshold variants and other random decks that are dumb and run Tarmogoyf, so far even Landstill with its permission and mass/targeted removal i have been able to beat, and Tarmogoyf.Dec with little to know problem. the only real time i may have a problem is when i dont draw guys and amazingly draw land despite 8 fetch lands, four tutor, four ringleader, and three gempalm incinerator....... so yea must be nice right? but still i dont think that Tarmogoyf is that big of a problem for goblins.dec it just comes down to the simple math that more guys beat one really big guy.

Ozymandias
02-14-2008, 08:24 PM
Wat you're missing is that it's not Tarmogyf that is tough. It's the rest of the deck.

Most of your goblins are individualy terrible, and the ones that aren't die to removal of whatever kind they run. The rest, non only can goyf stop, but even nimble mongoose is tough to remove.

Throw in Enforcers, Tombstalkers, or Dragons and there's truoble at the mill.

kicks_422
02-14-2008, 08:28 PM
I was thinking along those lines too. I was kind of surprised when everyone started saying that Thresh became a nightmare for Goblins when Goyf was printed. The MU improved for Thresh because Goyf is a damn good upgrade for Werebear and serves as an early stabilizer (wherein Werebear can't be dropped right away because it's so flimsy without Thresh), but I don't see how 8 creatures can stop an entire horde of Goblins. Add to that the fact that their main control engine (CB-Top) isn't really good against Goblins.

Maybe because people just stopped working on Goblins when Goyf was printed. I still think it's a good deck, and just one or two innovations/cards away from being top tier again.

Shawon
02-14-2008, 11:17 PM
I was thinking along those lines too. I was kind of surprised when everyone started saying that Thresh became a nightmare for Goblins when Goyf was printed. The MU improved for Thresh because Goyf is a damn good upgrade for Werebear and serves as an early stabilizer (wherein Werebear can't be dropped right away because it's so flimsy without Thresh), but I don't see how 8 creatures can stop an entire horde of Goblins. Add to that the fact that their main control engine (CB-Top) isn't really good against Goblins.

Maybe because people just stopped working on Goblins when Goyf was printed. I still think it's a good deck, and just one or two innovations/cards away from being top tier again.

Co-sign.

TeenieBopper
02-15-2008, 12:41 AM
No. Tarmogoyf is that good. We cannot deal with it on turn two, so we just sit there twiddling our dicks for three or four turns. Meanwhile, they're building up their board position too. Look at the following scenario.

Thresh: Fetch, Brainstorm/ponder.
Goblins: Mountain, lackey, go.
Thresh: Land, Tarmogoyf.
Goblins: Uhhh... Land, go.
Thresh: cantrip, cantrip, go.
Goblins: Land, Warchief, go.

Warchief is in play, and you're not swinging. That is fucking huge. You pretty much cannot swing into Tarmogoyf/Threshed Mongoose unless you're already so far ahead in board position that you're going to win anyways. This also doesn't take into account whatever removal or countermagic they might have. If they have a bolt/swords for Lackey, they start bashing for four/five a turn with goyf, and even with Goblins, that's hard to race.

It's not so much that Tarmogoyf by himself is insane (which he is, since Goblins used to not be able to deal with an early 'goyf, which stifled our our progression), it's that Tarmogoyf allowed Thresh to achieve a critical mass of stupidly efficient beaters. It's not that they only have 8 creatures, it's that they have 8 creatures that Goblins has a bitch of a time dealing with. You know how hard it is to play out a horde of Goblins? Pretty rough, considering our P/T to CC ratio is fucking horrible. It'd be great if we could be all like, "Oh, Tarmogoyf, eh? Tap out, activate Vial, play three more dudes, bash." Except if we do that, we're like, "Oh. Pyroclasm. Well, what do you know. That sucks." And, again, that doesn't take into account multiple Tarmogoyfs, singular or multiple Mongooses, or targeted removal.

I fear Thresh far more than I fear Landstill. Landstill's a goddamn joke without Humility. I'm about 50/50 against Thresh, but I still fucking hate that match-up. And it's all Tarmogoyf. There hasn't been a single card I've lost more games to than that. Maybe, maybe Engineered Plague.

Goblins was never worst than tier 1.5. People just stopped playing it. It's just not as dominant, and Thresh, which used to be an incredibly favorable match-up, became even if not slightly unfavorable.



Maybe because people just stopped working on Goblins when Goyf was printed. I still think it's a good deck, and just one or two innovations/cards away from being top tier again.

So, tell me. How is not running Goblin Piledriver (which sucks) and running non-goblins (Tarmogoyf/Shriekmaw, which are awesome) not innovative? They're new ideas, and certainly better than adding a black Goblin King, which is an old idea. Because, you know, the fucking red Goblin King got cut. Because it sucks.

GreenOne
02-15-2008, 07:15 AM
Isn't Warren Weirdings a better way to get rid of pesky Tarmos / Geese in a synergistic way with the deck itself?
It's Recurrable with Wort, Cheaper with Warchief, Tutorable with Matron and Ringleader. It also doesn't need a lot of goblins in play, and punish the opponent for playing decks with a little number of creatures (read aggro-control).
Is it because it's Dazeable, Spell Snareable, FoWable, CBalanceable etc that you would choose to run narrow answers like Shriekmaw?

kicks_422
02-15-2008, 07:34 AM
So, tell me. How is not running Goblin Piledriver (which sucks) and running non-goblins (Tarmogoyf/Shriekmaw, which are awesome) not innovative? They're new ideas, and certainly better than adding a black Goblin King, which is an old idea. Because, you know, the fucking red Goblin King got cut. Because it sucks.

Oh, I wasn't referring to THAT. That's cool, and I understand the argument for cutting Piledrivers. It's a pretty good argument too.

I just meant that people stopped thinking of Goblins since Goyf can't be Matron'd or Ringleader'd. I still think the deck has the makings of a great deck, and like I side, just a few innovations away from awesomeness once again (since we still have to see if the un-Piledriver version can put up consistent, decent results.

Nightmare
02-15-2008, 09:43 AM
Isn't Warren Weirdings a better way to get rid of pesky Tarmos / Geese in a synergistic way with the deck itself?
It's Recurrable with Wort, Cheaper with Warchief, Tutorable with Matron and Ringleader. It also doesn't need a lot of goblins in play, and punish the opponent for playing decks with a little number of creatures (read aggro-control).
Is it because it's Dazeable, Spell Snareable, FoWable, CBalanceable etc that you would choose to run narrow answers like Shriekmaw?
Mike runs 4x Weirding in the MD. He runs 4 more terror effects (4 Shriekmaw) in the board, as additional removal for Goyf. It used to be Smother, then Terminate, and now Shriekmaw, which is better than either of them. None of those were getting put into hand by Ringleader, so it's a moot point.

TeenieBopper
02-15-2008, 12:15 PM
Don't get me wrong, the fact that Tarmogoyf and now Shriekmaw can't be Matroned for or flipped off Ringleader is really annoying. But that's offset by the fact that their effects are just so powerful.

asdljas
02-16-2008, 01:47 PM
No more than 5, not including Fanatic and Sharpshooter.

It's a matter of what to cut. If you're running black and green and still running port, going below 23 land is a very bad idea. You're also giving up versatility. I don't think anyone should have a main deck without 1x Tin-Street; there's way to many pain in the ass artifacts in the format. I understand not wanting a Sharpshooter in the main (though I love the card and haven't cut him), but I'd rather cut him for another dude that swings, or some beef (another SGC, maybe Goblin Goon). The removal is tutorable, so you're running the removal itself, plus four more copies in Matron.

So, TB, how many removal effects are you running? I think I've finally come around to 4x Weirding. I also am running 2x Incinerator and 3x Fanatic, with no Sharpshooter (I don't like him).

I really would like one of these slots freed up for Goblin Sledder or another Wort. What do you recommend cutting?

Jaynel
02-16-2008, 10:38 PM
I think 4 Fanatic is REALLY good and wouldn't consider running any less. I'd cut down on Piledrivers before him.

TeenieBopper
02-17-2008, 01:12 PM
I think 4 Fanatic is REALLY good and wouldn't consider running any less. I'd cut down on Piledrivers before him.

This man speaks the truth.

I'm down to 1-2 Piledrivers. I run 4 Weirding, 1-2 Gempalm, 4 Fanatic, 1 Sharpshooter.

Whit3 Ghost
02-17-2008, 01:25 PM
This man speaks the truth.

I'm down to 1-2 Piledrivers. I run 4 Weirding, 1-2 Gempalm, 4 Fanatic, 1 Sharpshooter.
Does the awesomeness of Weirding against Threshold/Goyf in general offset its liability in the mirror?

And what's your current post-Weirding list? Apologies if it's been already posted.

Shriekmaw
02-17-2008, 04:00 PM
This man speaks the truth.

I'm down to 1-2 Piledrivers. I run 4 Weirding, 1-2 Gempalm, 4 Fanatic, 1 Sharpshooter.


My version is very similar.

Running: 3 Piledrivers, 3 Weirding, 2 Incinerators, 1 Tin Street, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Wort, and 2 Seige-Gang Commander.

kicks_422
02-17-2008, 05:53 PM
Does the awesomeness of Weirding against Threshold/Goyf in general offset its liability in the mirror?

You could use it on yourself to split a Goblin, for an additional pump to Piledriver and Incinerator... Or in conjunction with Goblin Sharpshooter, to take down a big one (e.g. Wort). I don't think it's a liability, it just does things differently.

TeenieBopper
02-17-2008, 06:33 PM
Other people play Goblins? Seriously?

I don't have to worry about the mirror. If I start having to, or if I'm going to play in a large tournament, I'd probably switch to a 3/3 set up.

Berzerked
02-18-2008, 01:48 AM
@TB: What do you cut from your list on Pg 44 to add Goyf? It seems like the list is pretty packed, and I could only see dropping some number of Wort, SGC, maybe Tin-Street (though I like him a lot), and maybe Ringleader since his consistency drops with Goyfs inclusion anyway.

Drossie
02-18-2008, 06:31 AM
My version is very similar.

Running: 3 Piledrivers, 3 Weirding, 2 Incinerators, 1 Tin Street, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Wort, and 2 Seige-Gang Commander.

What's your complete list?

And TeenieBopper, what's your list?

savemysoul
02-18-2008, 09:46 AM
has anybody ever though about tauren mauler ?

TeenieBopper
02-18-2008, 11:26 AM
I don't run goyf anymore.

4 Fanatic
4 Lackey
1 Piledriver
1 Tin Street
4 Weirding
1 Sharpshooter
1 Gem Palm
4 Warchief
4 Matron
2 Wort
4 Ringleader
3 Siege Gang
4 Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Mire
2 Foothills
1 Swamp


has anybody ever though about tauren mauler ?

Yes. I don't think there's room in the main since the 3 drop slot is so packed. You could make a good argument for the sideboard, though, especially against Thresh.

chokin
02-18-2008, 11:52 AM
I don't run goyf anymore.

4 Fanatic
4 Lackey
1 Piledriver
1 Tin Street
4 Weirding
1 Sharpshooter
1 Gem Palm
4 Warchief
4 Matron
2 Wort
4 Ringleader
3 Siege Gang
4 Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Mire
2 Foothills
1 Swamp



Yes. I don't think there's room in the main since the 3 drop slot is so packed. You could make a good argument for the sideboard, though, especially against Thresh.

If Weirding is the way to go, do we need Gempalm? I think someone said somewhere that in order for Gempalm to be really good, you need to already have an advantage on the field. It cycles, it is uncounterable, but is Weirding better?

A few questions:
Is Mad Auntie any good here? She scales better with Warcheif than King.
How good is Wort?
Why such a big decline in Piledrivers?

Whit3 Ghost
02-18-2008, 12:00 PM
If Weirding is the way to go, do we need Gempalm? I think someone said somewhere that in order for Gempalm to be really good, you need to already have an advantage on the field. It cycles, it is uncounterable, but is Weirding better?
It should be included as a 1-2 of because of the reasons you stated. And redundant removal is really good.

xsockmonkeyx
02-18-2008, 12:41 PM
I don't run goyf anymore.

4 Fanatic
4 Lackey
1 Piledriver
1 Tin Street
4 Weirding
1 Sharpshooter
1 Gem Palm
4 Warchief
4 Matron
2 Wort
4 Ringleader
3 Siege Gang
4 Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Mire
2 Foothills
1 Swamp


I like the look of this list a lot. :) My list is -1 Weirding, -1 Sharpshooter(moved to the board), +1 Gempalm, +1 Piledriver. Im glad to see that Port has been cut completely and Piledrivers are being cut. Port is terrible in this version IMO and Piledrivers are dead weight more often then they used to be. Do you feel that Weirding is that much better than Gempalm to do a 4/1 split? I still find the cycling of Gempalm to be useful, especially with Wort as a fixture of the deck.

GreenOne
02-18-2008, 07:36 PM
Isn't 3 SGC too much? I love lackey->Siege Gang, but is a 5cc spell needed as 3x in goblins? I'd say 1-2 is the right number.

Eldariel
02-19-2008, 06:56 AM
It should be included as a 1-2 of because of the reasons you stated. And redundant removal is really good.

Also, against basically any green deck packing mana accelerants, you'll want to knock out their big beaters with Weirdings. You'll need Gempalm, Fanatic and Sharpshooter to clear out the mooks so you can Edict the Goyfs, Terravores, Countryside Crushers et al.

GreenOne: I think there're good arguments for playing it as a 3-of. First of all, it makes the Lackey>SGC all the more common an opening, and with 4 Weirdings, it's actually not-that-distant of a possibility. Second, it improves your lategame by giving you more bombs to land, something not to be overlooked in a predominantly lategame deck. Third, it makes it easier to win through combat-stalling cards like Moat or Propaganda.

ChillerKiller0815
02-19-2008, 03:49 PM
In order to win thru propaganda, prison, maot and stuff like that you could start discussing to cut 1 mogg fanatic for 1 goblin sledder. They both help lackey connect, they both solve bridge from below. Fanatic shoots stuff like confidant but sledder handels jitte for good. So running 1 sledder instead of a 4th fanatic isnīt probably that much of a deal. On the other side sledder lets many of your critters survive things like pyroclasm etc. and it pumps up a single creature for the win thru tax effects like propaganda and it can enable the last 4-8 dmg with a sharpshooter. So i see him as a situational tool to otherwise dangerous situations. And if you have him in the opening hand instead of a fanatic he is still not terrible (he handles mongoose better then fanatic for example).

Any thoughts???

socialite
02-19-2008, 04:03 PM
I am still mind boggled as to why anyone would want to drop Mogg Fantastic for Goblin Sledder. Why do people think this even a remotely decent idea, someone please explain this to me I am at a loss. Mogg Fanatic does everything you listed ChillerKiller better then Goblin Sledder, although it does not help Goblins beat Moat, which I fail to see how either card does. Personally Id take Mogg Fanatic over Goblin Sledder any day. As far as board wiping effects like Pyroclasm, try not over extending yourself vs decks that may be packing said cards.

Edit: I think I say this for the majority people here when I point out that its time people stopped suggesting Goblin Sledder and equally shitastic cards.

raharu
02-19-2008, 04:08 PM
I can't truly expand on this question, so I'll just present it: What to you do against Reanimator/ other decks with recursive threats that are too big to deal with? Wierding gave you some new tools to combat them with, but has anyone tried/ be forced to play this MU?

There are a god number of situations in which Sledder is a little better than Fanatic, and in the late game I personally would rather see Sledder 99% of the time.

ChillerKiller0815
02-19-2008, 04:10 PM
I am still mind boggled as to why anyone would want to drop Mogg Fantastic for Goblin Sledder. Why do people think this even a remotely decent idea, someone please explain this to me I am at a loss.

If you tell me what it is you exactly donīt understand about playing a 3/1 fanatic/sledder split I might be able to help you out.:wink:

socialite
02-19-2008, 04:15 PM
What exactly does Goblin Sledder do better, that 4 Mogg Fanatics and the addition of another Siege Gang Commander possibly up to 3 main deck can't do?

Explain to me why I should run a card that is only decent at best in the "Late Game" when I can run Mogg Fanatic which is excellent in the Early, Middle, and Late Game.

raharu
02-19-2008, 04:19 PM
I'm not so sure Fanatic is "Excelent" in the late game. I've seen Goblins players frown a little at a turn 5 Fanatic, where a turn 4-5 Sledder is generally apreciated. It's ability to fuck up combat math is excelent, and pushing through that last bit of damage is more important that I think you give credit to. A singleton Sledder in a Fanatic Slot would possible be a boon for the deck, and at the least it's not going to take anything from the deck.

TrialByFire
02-19-2008, 04:48 PM
Its going to take the 4th Fanatic from the deck. Thats taking something.

ChillerKiller0815
02-19-2008, 04:49 PM
What exactly does Goblin Sledder do better, that 4 Mogg Fanatics and the addition of another Siege Gang Commander possibly up to 3 main deck can't do?

Explain to me why I should run a card that is only decent at best in the "Late Game" when I can run Mogg Fanatic which is excellent in the Early, Middle, and Late Game.

So once more:

there are things that a sledder simply does better than a fanatic.
1. Handels Bridge from Below all day long
2. Handels Jitte all day long
3. Lets a Lackey survive a turn 2 attack against a Mongoose
4. Lets every small goblin that gets blocked dead deal its combat dmg to the player
5. makes a big goblin to fight thru a propaganda or else
6. deals final dmg along with shooter
7. lets your best gobbos survive things like fire/ice, pyroclasm, lightning bolt...
8. ruins your oponents day with math:tongue:
9. enables some nice recursion tricks along with Wort (thinking of matrone for example)

Whereas a fanatic is only a 1 time bridge and jitte solution and only deals 1 dmg to oponent. so his main use is to help connect a lackey (not including mongoose on the play or goyf on the draw) or to get rid of confidants, lackeys, birds and some combo critters like illusionist.

this should at least make you consider sledder as a toolcard.
We are discussing 1 slot not a 4 off!!!!! I am still playing 3 fanatic because they do help connect the lackey which is huge.

Media314r8
02-19-2008, 05:06 PM
@ everyone supporting sledder: You are all my new best friends forever, for serious. Having an open mind is tech. I've been playing gobs for almost three years now, and I take sledder over fanatic in most metas everyday.

@ Everyone nay-saying without playtesting: Remember when everyone though goyf was a terrible bulk rare the first time we opened him in draft... "Oh, a 0/1 turn two... great, I suppose he could be a 2/3 or 3/4 for 1G late-game, but late game, I want something bigger...this card's shit!" More similarly, all the nay-sayers of Wort... now she is almost a staple in goblins, and I see more and more people coming around to Mad Auntie. Give it a try as a one-of. Turn four matron-ing for sledder so that warchief sticks around happens more often than you'd like to think. Need to push through damage, tutor for sledder, need your dudes to be able to fight that Babar (lox hierarch), tutor for sledder. Fanatic is great, don't get me wrong, but so is tinkerer, piledriver, Kiki, ect... there just aren't enough slots to run 4 of every good goblin, and it's time to break you stigma of going down from 4 fanatics and try something new.

@ goblins' evolution: Wierding is the best thing for goblins (along with wort, co-incidentaly) since aether vial, don't get me wrong. However, I've seen many, MANY goblins builds that seem to focus on "ZOMG!!!1! This card will like GUARANTEE that lackey hits turn two, OMFG MB 4 immediatly, fuck it, cheat in a fifth!" Decks with 4x Fanatic, 4x Wierding, and 2+ incinerator are focusing too much on a 1/1 creature that is only a four-of, and only really good the first two-three turns of the game. Fapping over an explosive lackey start only goes so far, however, when you are starring down an unwinnable combo MU game one, or a deck such as 43 Land that just plain doesnt have any guys that die to sorcerry-speed edict. I personally see goblins as an aggro-control deck with a strong mana-denial aspect that can fight through countermagic and disruption with vial, warchief, and oodles of CA and tutor effects. Goblins is not pure aggro, and Im fucking sick and tired of lists that are basicly built to ensure one 1/1 creature in a deck of 60 cards somehow resolves and connects turn two. Such 'balls to the walls, OMG get there little buddy, you're my only hope" AGGRO decks play like bad combo with a goblin backup plan, and are even cutting drivers in favor of more "lackey connects" cards. Fucking vomit.

redmage
02-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Mogg Raider asks; "Where's the love?"

*mutters*
"Damn Sledder, always cribbin' my game."

chokin
02-19-2008, 08:09 PM
I don't play Goblins as often as I should. I prefer Thresh, but when I decided to update my deck, I went with:
21//Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
7 Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland

35//Creatures
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Incinerator
2 Mad Auntie
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
3 Seige Gang Commander

4//Other
4 Aether Vial

Its been working ok. Mad Auntie is nice when people try to Bolt things, but doesn't do much against Pyroclasm. Wort helps when cards get wasted. I need to pick up some Weirdings soon!

Thoughts on Goblin Sledder/Mogg Raider - interesting. I'm unsure as to whether it'll make the cut though. It's good with Wort+Matron/Ringleader, but don't we usually WANT to KEEP our goblins? It's nice for damage-on-the-stack stuff, but outside of that and recycling, how good is he?

Nihil Credo
02-19-2008, 08:18 PM
@ goblins' evolution: Wierding is the best thing for goblins (along with wort, co-incidentaly) since aether vial, don't get me wrong. However, I've seen many, MANY goblins builds that seem to focus on "ZOMG!!!1! This card will like GUARANTEE that lackey hits turn two, OMFG MB 4 immediatly, fuck it, cheat in a fifth!"
Weirding isn't just for Lackey.

Early unkillable creatures on the other side of the board have always been one of the most annoying things for Goblins to deal with. Tarmogoyf is of course first and foremost, but you can also throw in the mix old enemies like 3/3 Mongeese, Every Pro-Red Creature Ever Printed, Every Creature With A Butt Of ~4-5+ Ever Printed, Every Guy Who Ever Managed To Wield Equipment.
Any one of these can be a one-sided Abyss for Goblins... Weirding solves that.

It can't kill Mishra's Factories and the like, true. Which is why you still run 1-2 Incinerators.

Incidentally: I'm no Goblins expert, but next time I pick up the deck I'm going to test Sledder. I think it is better than some people give it credit for (however, I'm not going to 'sack all my Goblins to fight Propaganda'. Seriously guys, what the hell are you smoking?).

Tacosnape
02-19-2008, 08:25 PM
Given that half the rogue decks in the universe pack Stifle now, Is it now becoming worthwhile to run a few Auntie's Hovel over Wooded Foothills in R/B Builds? Given how bad Goblins is when it runs into mana problems, I can't see the harm in making my manabase more immune to Stifle.

Media314r8
02-19-2008, 08:40 PM
Given that half the rogue decks in the universe pack Stifle now, Is it now becoming worthwhile to run a few Auntie's Hovel over Wooded Foothills in R/B Builds? Given how bad Goblins is when it runs into mana problems, I can't see the harm in making my manabase more immune to Stifle.

I was actually just contemplating this on my walk home today, as goblins certainly doesn't need/want the mana thinning, as hitting 5 lands is generally desirable. I think it really depends on your meta, as Hovel is better against stifle, but it lacks the ability of fetches to nab basics, so it hurts more if people are running a lot of wastes. Price of progress and back t basics also make hovel slightly less desirable, but the life and un-stifleability make it conditionally better. Again, depends on the metagame, but I would never mock a gobs player running hovels. Certainly a great way for new players to get into a legacy deck. (hell, people aren't even playing drivers anymore!!!... kind-of joking)

chokin
02-19-2008, 08:50 PM
What about people running Ancient Tomb and Chalice/Thorn of Amethyst? I suppose it makes it so you can do a turn 2 Matron, or play SGC off of 4 lands, but is that version any good?

Do we need to run green or not? Grip/Tranquility effects help against EP and other pesky enchantments/artifacts, but are they that much of a problem anymore? I suppose black gives us discard if we see fit (Thoughtseize, Duress, Cabal Therapy are all perfectly good candidates).

I think that RB versions are fine running either Foothills or Hovels. It's pretty meta dependent. In places with more Wasteland, Hovel isn't as good. More Stifles makes Hovels better. Both are better than Blood Crypt :P.

Joon
02-20-2008, 05:04 AM
Given that half the rogue decks in the universe pack Stifle now, Is it now becoming worthwhile to run a few Auntie's Hovel over Wooded Foothills in R/B Builds? Given how bad Goblins is when it runs into mana problems, I can't see the harm in making my manabase more immune to Stifle.

I guess that people want to stifle other things like Fetchlands in a deck with Ringleader, Wasteland and Matron.

GreenOne
02-20-2008, 05:56 AM
I guess that people want to stifle other things like Fetchlands in a deck with Ringleader, Wasteland and Matron.

You're playing threshold and start. Your hand is Tropical, Brainstorm, Stifle, Waste, Goyf, fetch and another card. You play "tropical, go". You opponent starts with wooded foothills, cracks it. No matter what, you're stifling it. Vs unknown opponent the thresh/Landstill player will stifle a fetch on turn 1, as the tempo gain is huge. Will stifle it on turn 2 too if on turn 1 your vial/lackey got countered/killed.

Obviously, nobody will stifle your 4th land.

ChillerKiller0815
02-20-2008, 10:25 AM
You're playing threshold and start. Your hand is Tropical, Brainstorm, Stifle, Waste, Goyf, fetch and another card. You play "tropical, go". You opponent starts with wooded foothills, cracks it. No matter what, you're stifling it. Vs unknown opponent the thresh/Landstill player will stifle a fetch on turn 1, as the tempo gain is huge. Will stifle it on turn 2 too if on turn 1 your vial/lackey got countered/killed.

Obviously, nobody will stifle your 4th land.

If you play smart you will hardly ever have to fear a stifle getting one of your fetchlands.
1. Donīt worry about it if you are on the play
2. if you are on the draw and they keep one blue mana open play a basic first. I think I had the situation once in my entire testing where i only had multiple fetchlands in my opening hand.
3.If they play blue with stifle they play a deck with a low creature curve and stuff like fow and daze as well, so just play your fetchland and say go... then crack it in response to brainstorm. next turn you start dropping daze-safe threats and trick them into bad counters with fow.


I would like to focus the disussion a little more on the sideboards. My aim isnīt to find the best sb card for the matchup xy but rather a solid 12 card sideboard that is solid vs a great deal of the problematic matchups and still useful in some others. Its ok if this leaves some matchups we sipmly die to. This would leave 3 slots for personal meta choices.

cards to discuss:

Leyline of the Void
Krosan Grip
Tranquility
Anarchy
Thorn of Amethyst
Chalice of the Void
REB
E.E.
Pyrokinesis
Pyrostatic pillar
Pithing Needle
Goblin King/Mad Auntie

Roldaice
02-20-2008, 01:44 PM
Thorn of Amethyst
A must to have, it's quite impossible to cut it from your sideboard.


Pyrokinesis
Every french player I know who tested it really liked it (monoR version and Rb) but I didn't test it personnaly.


Goblin King/Mad Auntie
A mix of Mad Auntie/Dralnu's Crusade in side is really solid. It's far better than Goblin King I think. 2/1 (2 Crusade) or 2/2 could be good. If there's not many plagues in your meta, you can pass to 1 mad auntie only (with Wort if needed).


Chalice of the Void, Pyrostatic Pillar, REB
I've cut all those 3 after test. REB isn't strong enough in Tarmo.meta and you can't find real combo decks in the french metagame.
However, it should be adaptated to your meta, obv.


E.E.
Lovin it. 4 SB. Very good solution indeed.


Tranquility, Krosan Grip
Green is so bad in Goblin :wink:


Anarchy, LOTV, Needle
Didn't test. W isn't good enough in gob. LOTV is 4 or 0, so 0 in my metagame. Needle should be tested, seems solid though.

I think Offalsnout has to be tested in high Icho meta :)

Quentin

EDIT: I think there's no match between Rb version and the rest (excepted monoR). I'm running 2 Wort MD and 1 Warren Weirding as black cards. I didn't test this last one too much, but 2 could also be really good. I've cuted the Mad Auntie MD for the Warren Weirding.

ChillerKiller0815
02-20-2008, 02:04 PM
@Roldaice

Three things to think about:

1. Dralnuīs Crusade is not a Goblin! Therefore it doesnīt get cheaper due to a warchief, isnīt recurrable with Wort, isnīt tutorable with Matrone or Ringleader.
2. Not playing green causes some problems. It leaves almost no enchantment removal except for E.E.(max. set to 2) and we lose the single main artifact hate in form of a Hooligan.
3. please explain the Thorn a little more in detail. I think It helps in most Combo matchups - if it doesnt hit the board to late. So does Leyline in addition to hit some other bad matchups like Loam,SotF and Staxx. In what way should I play Thorn over Leyline considering the limited space in my SB?

Tacosnape
02-20-2008, 02:36 PM
3. please explain the Thorn a little more in detail. I think It helps in most Combo matchups - if it doesnt hit the board to late. So does Leyline in addition to hit some other bad matchups like Loam,SotF and Staxx. In what way should I play Thorn over Leyline considering the limited space in my SB?

You shouldn't. Thorn of Amethyst is awful, narrow, and not all that strong at what it does. Graveyard hate is good, versatile, and powerful.

ChillerKiller0815
02-20-2008, 03:39 PM
You shouldn't. Thorn of Amethyst is awful, narrow, and not all that strong at what it does. Graveyard hate is good, versatile, and powerful.

That is exactly what I was trying to say. they serve the same matchups but Leyline is quicker, uncounterable and more useful in other matchups as well.

Berzerked
02-21-2008, 03:50 AM
1. Dralnuīs Crusade is not a Goblin! Therefore it doesnīt get cheaper due to a warchief, isnīt recurrable with Wort, isnīt tutorable with Matrone or Ringleader.


Just to play Devil's Advocate for a second, Crusade doesn't die to double Plagues either. Ya, that happens...(and honestly, I expect it to happen more to the builds dropping Port...not that I haven't done the same or anything).

redmage
02-21-2008, 06:05 AM
@Roldaice

2. Not playing green causes some problems. It leaves almost no enchantment removal except for E.E.(max. set to 2) and we lose the single main artifact hate in form of a Hooligan.


While I agree that enchantments can be a problem. We do have answers (Thoughtseize, Therapy, Duress, Anarchy, Mad Auntie vs. Plague, E.E., etc.). So, while Grip is nice, it's not really essential.

I don't see Hooligan as being a strong enough reason, to splash green, because he's already "lost" by accomplishing one of our main goals: getting a Warchief to stick. Personally, I've always found Goblin Tinkerer to be far more synergistic, and it can kill multiple Vials, Chalices, Needles, etc. The Tinkerer also survives a single E. Plague to be able to "pump" Piledrivers, or get to sac'd to a SGC.

ChillerKiller0815
02-21-2008, 10:07 AM
While I agree that enchantments can be a problem. We do have answers (Thoughtseize, Therapy, Duress, Anarchy, Mad Auntie vs. Plague, E.E., etc.). So, while Grip is nice, it's not really essential.

I don't see Hooligan as being a strong enough reason, to splash green, because he's already "lost" by accomplishing one of our main goals: getting a Warchief to stick. Personally, I've always found Goblin Tinkerer to be far more synergistic, and it can kill multiple Vials, Chalices, Needles, etc. The Tinkerer also survives a single E. Plague to be able to "pump" Piledrivers, or get to sac'd to a SGC.

You are talking about having lots of answers in form of Duress, TS, Therapy.... ! Saying that you have them in theory is great and I know that too but I would actually like to see a decklist/sideboard that has included those cards and still doesnīt lose concistency by dropping the amount of goblin cards and although having versitlie solutions vs. other common threats this deck has to face. If you can do that I am more than happy to drop the 3rd color. Duress+TS+Therapy+Leyline+2 Tool Gobbos+others = crowded sideboard:tongue:
But up to now the artifact hate that is a goblin too plus Grip plus being able to run a versitile sb-solution in form of E.E. have been quite good. So please open my eyes for a better way to do it.

Btw I play 1 Tinkerer as well.

redmage
02-21-2008, 06:39 PM
You are talking about having lots of answers in form of Duress, TS, Therapy.... ! Saying that you have them in theory is great and I know that too but I would actually like to see a decklist/sideboard that has included those cards and still doesnīt lose concistency by dropping the amount of goblin cards and although having versitlie solutions vs. other common threats this deck has to face. Duress+TS+Therapy+Leyline+2 Tool Gobbos+others = crowded sideboard:tongue:

Lets not get absurd. No one is suggesting running all of those answers together; they're merely options to choose from. After all, you're not currently running Grip, Naturalize, Tranquility, Hull Breach, Break Asunder, Calming Verse, Nantuko Vigilante, Creeping Mold, Decimate, Druid Lyrist, Elvish Lyrist, Emerald Charm, Essence Filter, Hush, Indrik Stomphowler, Molder, Multani's Decree, Mystic Melting, Nantuko Calmer, Nullmage Advocate, Pernicious Deed, Primeval Light, Reverent Silence, Seal of Primordium, Spring Cleaning, Stomp and Howl, Tranquil Domain, and Viridian Zealot by splashing green. That would be a "crowded sideboard". :tongue:

Also, all of those Green cards fall to the same "lose concistency by dropping the amount of goblin cards" clause as well. In other words, the Black options will not cost you any more consistency, than the green ones, by not being goblins. You also gain manabase-consistancy by cutting the 3rd color.



But up to now the artifact hate that is a goblin too plus Grip plus being able to run a versitile sb-solution in form of E.E. have been quite good. So please open my eyes for a better way to do it.

"Better" is quite subjective; however, there are solid alternatives in Black. Tinkerer is still "artifact hate that is a goblin". As for Grip plus a versitile sb-solution in form of E.E.; Duress/TS/Therapy are quite versitile. Really though, the final S.B. choices all depend on your meta. If you fear Moat, Solitary Confinement, Sphere of Law, etc., then you could run 1-2 Anarchy to supplement the discard options. If Plague is your main concern you can run 1-2 Mad Aunties to supplement any discard that you may choose to run.



Btw I play 1 Tinkerer as well.

So you've already got one less reason to weaken your manabase by splashing Green. ;)

EternalDragon09
02-21-2008, 06:45 PM
Grip is the best against things like oh any form of counter magic backed enchantments, or pernicious deed and E.E., Chill (its blue=counter magic). Black allows you to have a better match up against combo. Breakfast and maybe T.E.S are to only two viable combo decks in most meta. And grip is an instant.
so when they go turn one dark ritual cast E.P. and you have the hardest time recovering while they dig for the second and then you loose because you dont pack enchantment removal, or targeted removal to kill their Confidant.....yea.

GreenOne
02-22-2008, 09:11 AM
Grip is the best against things like oh any form of counter magic backed enchantments, or pernicious deed and E.E., Chill (its blue=counter magic). Black allows you to have a better match up against combo. Breakfast and maybe T.E.S are to only two viable combo decks in most meta. And grip is an instant.
so when they go turn one dark ritual cast E.P. and you have the hardest time recovering while they dig for the second and then you loose because you dont pack enchantment removal, or targeted removal to kill their Confidant.....yea.

If they go turn 1 ritual -> plague they're probably playing sort of suicide-black deck. Suicide/pikula is not that present in current meta, so that situation is unlikely, and if it hapens you've probably won G1 vs them. You're siding in Mad Aunties too, so if you have an auntie you can still have a decent game, and remember can still win with a plague out quite easily if you're recurring Weirdings with Wort and beat.
After all, you're playing 4 tutorable Aunties and they're playing 4 untutorable Plagues. And if they're playing plague in the SB in current meta, goblins is probably a bad matchup, so you probably just won the first game.

In sum, I don't think we have to worry a lot about plague, because:
- goblins is not that scary thing anymore in the meta, where goyfs are a big deal. People will likely play Thread of disloyalty than plague right now.
- A single plague doesn't ruin your game if it's coming down, like it should, on turn 3 just for the way goblin is built: wort+weirdings, piledrivers+2/2 or 3/3 dudes, Aunties, SGC.
- even with Rb you can prevent a plague coming down thanks to discard, Aunties, mana denial.

Damn, i've gotta learn some synthesis skill.

Media314r8
02-22-2008, 09:53 AM
Tinkerer is just as versitle a solution vs artifacts MB, tinkerer gets better with warchief, tinstreet gets worse. Tin street swings for 2, tinkerer doesnt die to an e-plague. Tinstreet tame-walks affinity, tinkerer can draw concessions from affinity if mad auntie is involved, and can straigt win games. most importantly, tinstreet causes us to run another MD color, weakening the manabase.

IMO Krosan Grip isn't needed in goblins SB. Unless someone can drop a moat AND a humility (to fix the SGC problem) goblins has out against every enchantment, and we obviously can kill artifacts. VS Plague, I have 1 mad auntie MB and 3 more SB. Your tutorable, ringleader-able, swinging anti-hate > their 4 enchantments that sit there not attacking. If your opponent is enough of a sack to have 2 E plagues down before turn four... you probably werent winning that match anyway, Kgrip or Mad Auntie.

tldr; Tinkerer>Tin Street (warchief nueters tin street, tin street makes us splash green)
Mad Auntie > Grip (as long as you're running SGC to beat moat)

EDIT: Let us never speak of Dralnu's Crusade ever again... ever.

Braves
02-23-2008, 02:44 AM
This may have been discussed post morningtide. But how do you guys feel about sensation gorger?

chokin
02-23-2008, 03:37 AM
This may have been discussed post morningtide. But how do you guys feel about sensation gorger?

Sensation Gorger is pretty random...he acts kinda like a Ringleader, only he gives you a flat 4 cards, not just 0-4 Goblins. The downside is losing your hand, which if you are actively using Matron and Ringleader, should always have good stuff going on in your hand.

I don't think I like it too much. It's something that would have to be tested. He might be like a recurring Ringleader for all I know, but Goblins maindeck is looking pretty tightly packed of needed stuff right now.

Roldaice
02-23-2008, 06:28 AM
I'm Glad to see that most of you think that the green color isn't powerfull enough to be needed.
In France, we use to use Meekstone SB (secret-tech HA) wich is pretty good in current metagame.

Djenin
02-23-2008, 08:22 AM
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountain (2)
3 Swamp (2)
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Warren Weirding
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
Lands: 22, Spells: 12, Crt: 26

I have playing this list lately with some succes. I've also tested goblin grenade instead of lightning bolt, but their use was rather situational so I stuck with the bolts for now.

As other people have pointed out, I don't think green offers enough to be added and I found that a simpler B/R build plays more solid. Any suggestions on my list would be welcome.

cheers

Roldaice
02-23-2008, 08:48 AM
7 Mountain (2)
3 Swamp (2)

First abomination, but the winner is :


1 Goblin Piledriver

You definitely can't be competitive with this. It's the card that's making the deck so good. The playset of this isn't debatable, really. I even didn't imagine a list with less than 4 Piledrivers.

Excepted those 2 things, your deck could be interesting. I don't like Lightning Bolt personnaly, and 2 Gempalm Incinerator is a lack of 1, at least, I think.
I would cut the Bolt to return to a more classical list, with 4-of Ringleader/Matron...

Q.

Sanguine Voyeur
02-23-2008, 09:08 AM
You definitely can't be competitive with this. It's the card that's making the deck so good. The playset of this isn't debatable, really. I even didn't imagine a list with less than 4 Piledrivers.Less then four Piledrivers isn't unheard of. [List (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=208625&postcount=944), reasoning (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=201676&postcount=890)]

Media314r8
02-23-2008, 09:08 AM
This may have been discussed post morningtide. But how do you guys feel about sensation gorger?

Oracle text:
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top card of your library. If it shares a creature type with Sensation Gorger, you may reveal it. If you do, each player discards his or her hand and draws four cards.

This seems like pretty terrible ringleader, as ringleader is CA, this is card neutrality, and I personally dont like feeding my opponent goyfs and bolts/stps

Djenin
02-23-2008, 09:35 AM
Less then four Piledrivers isn't unheard of. [List (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=208625&postcount=944), reasoning (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=201676&postcount=890)]


Exactly, initially i had 3 piledrivers in there but made room for bolts. With bolts i can save my weirdings for when i really need them (goyf, dreadnought, akroma etc). It also helps lackey connect more often.

Thinking about cutting one gempalm though but I'm not sure.

What exactly is wrong with my manabase btw? Is it the swamp : mountain ratio? I've never really had any problems with it.

Roldaice
02-23-2008, 11:26 AM
Keeping quotes out of his context is a nonsense.
His list has nothing to do with wich we're currently talking about.
PS: he plays Tarmogoyf.

TeenieBopper
02-23-2008, 11:44 AM
First abomination, but the winner is :



You definitely can't be competitive with this. It's the card that's making the deck so good. The playset of this isn't debatable, really. I even didn't imagine a list with less than 4 Piledrivers.

Excepted those 2 things, your deck could be interesting. I don't like Lightning Bolt personnaly, and 2 Gempalm Incinerator is a lack of 1, at least, I think.
I would cut the Bolt to return to a more classical list, with 4-of Ringleader/Matron...

Q.

Blah blah blah, I like shiny objects, blah blah blah, I don't know how the deck really works, I just like big front ends, blah blah blah.

I'm going to try this again, all right? After this, I'm just going to start calling people names.

Goblin Piledriver sucks unless you're already winning. He sucks on his own. He's only marginally better with one other goblin, same with two other goblins. He's only really good if you're swinging with three other goblins plus him. If you're swinging with four goblins, you're already in a good position.

Now, say your opponent just cast Wrath of God, or Deeded your board away. You rip Goblin Piledriver. Wow, bet you wish that was any other card, eh? Or you get the awesome T1 Vial, T2 Piledriver, T3 Warchief start. You're about to bash for 10, yay! And then your warchief gets killed (which is, in fact, the right play), and now you're only swinging for 1.

"But wait!" you're going to say," You need him to win the combo match-up!"

Guess what. You weren't going to win the combo match-up anyways.

Now, I'm going to list the Goblins that are better that Goblin Piledriver:

Lackey
Fanatic
Warchief
Matron
Ringleader
Wort
SGC

And, to be perfectly honest, I'm of the opinion that Goblin Sharpshooter is at least on part with Piledriver, if not better.

So yeah, I cut Rishadan Port before anyone else (because it sucked)I ran Tarmogoyf (which was awesome) and I cut Goblin Piledriver down to one (which has also worked just fine). I'm trying some new stuff with the deck. What the fuck have you been doing?

Media314r8
02-23-2008, 12:20 PM
negative nancy

This arguement makes no sense, perhaps you meant (changes in bold)

---
"But wait!" you're going to say," You need him to win the combo match-up!"

Guess what. You weren't going to win the combo match-up with piledriver.
---

Also, topdecking a goblin lackey after a wrath is horrible. Topdecking a hymn (asuming your opponent is just as hellbent as you in this hypothetical situation) is horrible. Topdecking a Wrath/Deed is horrible. Just because cards are bad after a wrath doesnt make them bad cards. If you, as a goblins player, let deed wipe your whole board with you being hellbent, you should never play goblins again, same with wrath. If you are playing against an opponent with wrath or deed, you damn well better be keeping at least a matron or wort in hand. Also, playing against warth/deed decks with piledriver puts more pressure on them so you don't have to overextend, you can make them pop ded/wrath with just three guys swinging. Fear of multiple drivers also makes control players more likely to spend removal/board sweepers on a warcheif, as warcheif on board + cards in goblin players hand = scary as hell.

I understand you dont like driver in goblins, as you think he is win-more. I don't like goyf in goblins as he isnt a goblin and if your opponent isn't aggro-control, he'll probably just be a 2/3 the whole game, (lands + incinerator) he also isn't a goblin, did I mention he isn't a goblin? People who don't like goyf don't belittle goblins lists with goyf, please don't pretend to be the guru of goblins and slander everyone playing with piledrivers and treating them like noobs. (4 drivers in all three PTQ winning extended goblins decks, and ZERO goyfs. Not that I'm making a direct comparison of extd to legacy, but control and wrath effects are even more common in extended, and that was one of your arguments against driver.)

Ranarion
02-23-2008, 12:21 PM
If you're swinging with four goblins, you're already in a good position.

Yeah... it is really good having four 1/1 and 2/2 creatures... :rolleyes:

And if my opponent play Wrath od God or Deed itīs good to have a Piledriver.
With any random goblin and him you hit for 4+ every turn. Then your opponent kills all creatures. 1:2 trade for him.
Without Piledriver your must have four goblins to hit for 4+. If your opponent play now a massremoval he trades 1:4.
Piledriver lets you attack without overextending. Get what I want to say?
In addition Piledriver kills blocking Goyf, none of your other goblins is able to do this.
I can't see, why Piledriver is might be bad. Every goblin is bad as it's own, Warchief is a 2/2 haste for 3, Matron a 1/1 for 3 and so on...

socialite
02-23-2008, 01:30 PM
http://info.alegenteap.org/images/clientid_200/circle_headache_man.jpg


Also, topdecking a goblin lackey after a wrath is horrible. Topdecking a hymn (asuming your opponent is just as hellbent as you in this hypothetical situation) is horrible. Topdecking a Wrath/Deed is horrible. Just because cards are bad after a wrath doesnt make them bad cards. If you, as a goblins player, let deed wipe your whole board with you being hellbent, you should never play goblins again, same with wrath. If you are playing against an opponent with wrath or deed, you damn well better be keeping at least a matron or wort in hand.

As you made clear this is true with a number of cards. I believe TeenieBopper's point was to minimize the number of cards that cause this problem.

Honestly four pile drivers are horrible drawing into multiples when you almost always would like to see any other goblin, not just after a board sweeping effect, is fucken terrible.

On a side note, glad to see this thread has reached the threshold of Burn.Dec thread status as in it has turned into garbage.

Heres an idea, lets add Goblin Sledder.









NOT

Media314r8
02-23-2008, 01:53 PM
Honestly four pile drivers are horrible drawing into multiples when you almost always would like to see any other goblin, not just after a board sweeping effect, is fucken terrible.

I almost always want to win in goblins, and driver is conductive to doing so. Goblins is aggro/control, and you cannot expect to win games simply by CA and CQ via ringleader/matron. You can stall the board like this, but goblins does not play like TEC with one or two fetchable wincons. Plowing into your opponent with two hasted drivers is often a good way to trade a R investment for a goyf and deal 7 to the dome. Yes, you can sometime matron for a ringleader through vial into another matron and fetch SGC, but you aren't winning, you are gaining CA. This doesn't work so well vs combo or fast aggro like FS or dragon-stompy where you need an actual clock, not just CA. It is usually good for an aggro/control deck to have SOME aggro elements (other than 1 tutorable) so it can go on the offensive while also gaining steady CA.

It is essential to run at LEAST 4 threats (read creatures with a front end >2) in goblins, and whether they be goyf or driver is preference, as they both cost :2: and can win a game out of nowhere. Goyf is better alone, driver is (much) better with chief and friends. For gob decks running goys, fanatics/incinerators become much more important to win goyf/goyf battles. I don't think this thread has turned into garbage, there are still innovations going on in goblins, but currently there are too many people screaming at each other without tournament results/testing to prove:

"Goyf>driver!"
"driver>Goyf!"
"sledder>fanatic!"
"fanatic>sledder!"
"4 weirding MD!"
"4 thorn MD!"

Familiar, facepalm in some other thread, like budget thresh, which is actually deserving of facepalm.jpg, as all the budget options are inferior to the actual duals/goyfs/fetches plan. Goblins is torn, and just as when Kiki left there will be a brief period of screaming matches on both sides.

redmage
02-23-2008, 03:54 PM
While I'm not certain that Sensation Gorger is a proper choice for the deck, I thought this needed a bit of clarification.


Oracle text:
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top card of your library. If it shares a creature type with Sensation Gorger, you may reveal it. If you do, each player discards his or her hand and draws four cards.

Notice the "mays". Triggering Gorger's effect is entirely optional.



This seems like pretty terrible ringleader, as ringleader is CA, this is card neutrality, and I personally dont like feeding my opponent goyfs and bolts/stps

It's not always card neutrality. First, if you have a good hand, simply choose not to reveal a Goblin (if you can) when Kinship triggers. Second, if your opponent has 5+ cards in hand then they're going down to a random 4 (card advantage). If they've spent the first 3 turns crafting an optimal hand to "go off" with, it could be quite a devistating blow for them to loose it all and get 4 "random" cards instead.

Again, I havn't tested him to know if he's right for the deck, but I still think it would be good for people to understand the optional nature of his Draw-4 effect.

Tacosnape
02-23-2008, 04:25 PM
If you're swinging with four goblins, you're already in a good position

In that one word is the entire flaw in your argument and why words can be dangerously misleading. Swinging.

Whether you're swinging or not depends on your Goblins. Four Goblins alone does not give you a good position in a game. But if they're swinging, then yes, you have that advantage.

The thing about Goblin Piledriver is that it requires you to have less of an advantage in order to swing.

If my Goblin board is, let's say, Warchief, Matron, Fanatic, Lackey, and my opponent is sitting on a Tarmogoyf, I'm in an okay position. If I swing in, chances are he's going to eat the Lackey and take four, or if he knows it's safe to let the Lackey through, he might eat the Warchief and take a whopping three. Whether I can afford to swing is based on the resources in my hand and my opponent's life total. This position isn't bad, but it isn't an automatic win at this juncture. He could suck up the four, drop a second Goyf next turn, and things could turn ugly.

If my Goblin board is, let's say, Warchief, Matron, Piledriver, Lackey, and my opponent is sitting on a lone Tarmogoyf, I'm in a much better position. If I swing in, he has to face the reality that if he blocks the Lackey, he's taking ten damage. If he blocks the Driver, he takes four, loses his Tarmogoyf, and I get to drop a free Goblin with a Warchief in play, which could very well be a Ringleader or another Matron. If he blocks the Chief, he'll still have a Goyf, but he'll take nine and I'll get a free Goblin, and party on.

Going further, if my board is Warchief, Fanatic, Piledriver, Piledriver, and my opponent has the same lone Tarmogoyf, he's screwed. I swing in. He can block the Chief if he wants to take a whopping 15, but chances are he can't afford to do that. If he blocks the Driver, he still takes 10, loses his Tarmogoyf, and I have another Driver swinging in next turn.

Goblin Piledriver allows the deck to swing more frequently and effectively. Sure, he sucks on his own. But groups suck a lot more without him.

Media314r8
02-23-2008, 07:45 PM
Notice the "mays". Triggering Gorger's effect is entirely optional.

I think everyone understands this, and when he Isn't half-wheel of fortuning, he's a vanilla 2/2 for 1RR, whcih seems poor. If you do have no/few cards in hand, it is likely you are allready winning hard (and you dont want your opponent WoF'ing into a wrath or deed, or you are losing terribly and have been forced to overcommit to stabalize/stall the board, in which you opponent is probably emptying his hand to put more pressure on you.

I cannot think of ANY time I'd want this guy vs combo, (unless you add blue to golbins and FoW) and I hardly ever would want to give a control player even more cards to wrath my board with. Your average thresh player's four cards are going to be better than your four, as they will likely be able to filter them for U or UU, and drop a 5/6 for 1G, while you are tutoring/filtering for 1R and perhaos trying to resolve a SGC for 3RR or 2RR.

Sensation Gorger is possibly the biggest win/lose more card I've ever seen, and while he may have a place in extended or T2, he seems terrible in legacy. This is coming from someone who Likes underdogs like sledder wort/mad auntie, and settler. (though not in traditional goblins lists)

I'm willing to give any goblin a chance, and have tested most splashes in goblins from swords/crib swap/seal of cleansing to tinstreet/k grip to my current Rb, but I am fully confidant in dismissing Sensation Gorger as utter garbage in legacy goblins.

EDIT:

Tacosnipe is a sage and his wisdom should be heeded. Taco's advice is a refreshingly pure drop of water in the ocean of piss that is the sourcers' babbling.

xsockmonkeyx
02-23-2008, 10:54 PM
Familiar, facepalm in some other thread, like budget thresh, which is actually deserving of facepalm.jpg, as all the budget options are inferior to the actual duals/goyfs/fetches plan.

Way to completely miss the point.


Tacosnipe is a sage and his wisdom should be heeded. Taco's advice is a refreshingly pure drop of water in the ocean of piss that is the sourcers' babbling.

BTW, you have something on your nose. Here let me get it for you.

Regardless of how awesome Taco is it doesnt automatically make him right. Teeniebopper has just as much, if not more, authority when it comes to green men. Im inclined to believe Teeniebopper because Im trying some of the same ideas and see it working.

from Cairo
02-24-2008, 12:11 AM
Possibly worth noting...

The cards that are being added in the Piledriver spots are Warren's Weirdings.

In the examples above where there is a single blocker on the field that you're trying to overpower with either Piledriverless attackers or attackers including one or more Piledrivers, if you're playing the list with 4 Weirding then you have removal for said blocker.

I mean obviously the examples are all just hypothetical, but in cases where you're trying to overpower opposing creatures having more removal may be better or as good as having a situationally large guy.

As people have been saying the place where this switch jumps out as bad is against Combo, clearly Warren's Wierding is not as strong a card as Piledriver against decks that have no blockers. Typically combo is a smaller portion of the field than aggro or aggro control.

Tacosnape
02-24-2008, 01:34 AM
As people have been saying the place where this switch jumps out as bad is against Combo, clearly Warren's Wierding is not as strong a card as Piledriver against decks that have no blockers. Typically combo is a smaller portion of the field than aggro or aggro control.

While I don't necessarily agree with the concept that Piledriver and Weirding have to occupy the same slots (I run 4 and 4 without much trouble in my RB list), it's also worth noting that Piledriver is much better against pure control than Warren Weirding. This is not to say that Piledriver is good against control, but it's a lot better than Warren Weirding which can often find itself completely devoid of a target.

revenge_inc
02-24-2008, 02:48 AM
The reasons why I run 4 Piledrivers:
-Bombtastic in multiples, like Tacosnape said, in matchups such as threshold your opponent must block them or die. He sets a fast clock.
-I've recently tested Hearth Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=3689)s as a 3-of inclusion (not much mind you), so far it's been promising though.

Granted I have boarded out Piledrivers before. In creature heavy matchups such as Goblins I sometimes did find him sub-optimal. He doesn't help a stalled board like a good ol' Seige-Gang does.

redmage
02-24-2008, 03:23 AM
I think everyone understands this...

Regarding the "entirely optional" bit; that was more for chokin's sake than yours. When chokin said...


The downside is losing your hand, which if you are actively using Matron and Ringleader, should always have good stuff going on in your hand.

...it made it seem like he/she didn't understand that the draw 4 was optional, and you actually don't have to "lose your hand".

The only issue that I saw with your post, was the "card neutrality" bit. Gourger is capable of card advantage; so that description seemed a bit narrow. The main reason I quoted you was that you had conveniently included the oracle text. ;)



and when he Isn't half-wheel of fortuning, he's a vanilla 2/2 for 1RR, whcih seems poor.

Meh, most of our creatures are vanilla wimps when they aren't "doing their thing". The real question is how often we'd actually want, or need, a "mini-wheel" effect. Much like you, I can't really think of many situations that I'd want it (with current builds).



If you do have no/few cards in hand, it is likely you are allready winning hard (and you dont want your opponent WoF'ing into a wrath or deed, or you are losing terribly and have been forced to overcommit to stabalize/stall the board...

It's the "losing terribly and have been forced to overcommit" part that gets me. Current builds don't want to, but what if you could exploit overcommitment?

Something about Gorger just screams "break me" to me. A mini-wheel that's attached to a goblin is a dangerous combination; however, I think he'd likely need a much different build. Maybe something more sligh-like; with acceleration (such as SSG) for Lackey + Reckless Charge -> SGC turn 1's, and Goblin Grenades to finish things off, after the swing, turn 2. I've always loved the idea of that turn 2 kill, but it wears out one's hand pretty quickly. Regardless, something like that would probably be better off in its own thread.