[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Tacosnape]

By the way, Sensation Gorger is awful.

Parity effects are only good when you have a way to take advantage of them that your opponent doesn't. Vial Goblins doesn't have said way to take advantage. Therefore Sensation Gorger is trash. Oh, and, card for card, is there a deck in Legacy that plays worse cards than Vial Goblins?

[TeenieBopper]

Oh, and, card for card, is there a deck in Legacy that plays worse cards than Vial Goblins?

Threshold.

Edit: oh, yeah, substance.

Sensation Gorger is just screaming "Break me!" But I don't think it's gonna happen in legacy. Not gonna lie, plucking four cards a turn sounds sexy.

[redmage]

Threshold

Not even close. Thresh has "Basic Land - Island", and those alone are more broken than anything in Vial Gobs. :lol:

[Lepp]

Quick question for those of you playing r/b, how are you dealing with plagues, deeds, and other nasty enchants? Also how are people dealing with breakfast?
Meta I am in still has enough goblin hate in it to screw me over. I'm playing 3 color with grips right now, but some games I just cant get a grip out. My friend also runs a 2 color breakfast which is a real pain, so seeking knowledge on this as well.

[Media314r8]

vs E Plague: 1 Mad Auntie MD, 3 SB. Tutorable guys (that swing) that negate otherwise do-nothing enchants that must be topdecked > E Plagues

vs Deed: lay a driver, lay a cheif, matron for auntie or keep a matron/ringleader in-hand. Also, they WILL have to tap out to bust deed (CMC 4/5 for SCG or Ringleader) you probably win after this happens. tldr; dont overcommit. Apply pressure, they tap out for two turns to reset the board. Haste > tapped out GB player not playing FoW

vs Breakfast: Be in the X-0 bracket, you'll be playing good combo like TES and grim iggy,not psuedo combo BS like breakfast. If Breakfast is domanant in your MU, 4 fanatics main and possibly a few incinerators. Wierdings. Leylines in the side if you really must. Tinkerer/tin street their vial. Win fast.

[Lepp]

Ya i started out using 4 leylines, but if I don't get it on opening hand, they are pretty much 4 wasted slots in the sb.

i had completely missed shattering spree, i forsee dropping green :)

[savemysoul]

try needle for breakfast

[Media314r8]

try needle for breakfast

I guess you could needle vial to slow them, but you'd better have about 10 needles, as they run 4+ different en-kor creatures, and the illusianist's ability is triggered, not activated.

[Lepp]

I know on some versions of breakfast, needle on kiki helps. It keeps them from cloning sky hussar.

[Media314r8]

Oh, are you talking about full english breakfast or cephalid breakfast? Both are pretty poor in the current meta, but ceph is T1.5 as it does have Force, daze, vial, and goyf as a backup plan. Full english hasn't been played (or placed, I should say) in any recent large tournaments I can recall, probably an aspiring Tier 2 deck.

EDIT: just remembered that I'm posting in a goblins thread.

Don't play needle in your goblins SB unless you're expecting a lot of survival/alluren (still weak)/deed in your meta. Combo-hate is more necessary than winning more against decks you already have decent MUs with.

[Tacosnape]

I guess you could needle vial to slow them, but you'd better have about 10 needles, as they run 4+ different en-kor creatures, and the illusianist's ability is triggered, not activated.

Most of the builds I see run only two. 4 Nomads En-Kor and a single Shaman En-Kor.

I think you're seriously underestimating Needle. It won't shut down Cephalophalid Breakfast by itself, but not much does, and it's fantastic at solving a ton of problems RB can't handle otherwise.

[from Cairo]

I think you're seriously underestimating Needle.

Agreed.

Landstill - Pernicious Deed, Manlands
Breakfast - Nomads En-Kor
Survival - Survival
Aggroloam - Seismic Assault
Aluren - Cavern Harpy
X Stompy - Jitte


Solves alot of problem cards like Deeds, Jittes and Assault are those decks answers to weenie swarms. Survival and Breakfast engines sort of flop when you needle them. Needling Top is sort of underwhelming, but I probably wouldn't board it in against Thresh.

[Phantom]

Aggroloam - Seismic Assault


If you're going to play Needle in the board, I highly recommend studying the crap out of the major decks and learing what you can needle. For example, it is often the right move to needle the cycling lands in loam, or the Morph creatures in whatever.

Also, while you should almost never preemtively needle Jitte, you should def name Sword of Fire and Ice ASAP as once it is attached, needle will do nothing (unless you kill the now pro:red creature).

Know your cards, and know their decks and needle will be a great tool.

[from Cairo]

If they are playing 4 Forgotten Cave and 3 Tranquil Thicket this seems like sort of a blind guess. If you Needle one and they get the other than you pretty much wasted the Needle. Even w/o Cycling lands if they have been shut off an Loam in yard and an Assult on the board means Goblin's is getting Wrath'd every turn, just by foregoing one's draw for dredge and returning 3 land to hand. If you Needle Assault they having Burning Wish and Dev Dreams as there only answers for board clearing effects and you've Needle'd out a win con.

Also most lists I've seen of Dragon Stompy have moved to Light and Shadow rather than Fire and Ice, since it doesn't wreck hellbent. I guess if game 1 you saw Fire and Ice, yea you'd name that.

Know your cards, and know their decks and needle will be a great tool.

[Media314r8]

Morph can't be needled, it is a game rule, not an activated ability. See haterator.dec (unmorphing exalted with dampening matrix in play) and TS block constructed and willbending split-second spells. If you're boarding in hate for Loam's CA and boarding out goblins, you're losing. I agree with survival and deed, but loam, breakfast, and alluren hardly have problems dealing with needle, so boarding out guys to deal a tempo blow to them seems poor. (about half of deed decks also run vindicate, and will probably vindi your needle before blowing up the over-committed board)

I respect both Phantom and Taco, but knowing rules > laying down a four-of 'hate' card in your sideboard and hoping your opponent will scoop em up. (esp in the case of a morph.)

Don't get me wrong, I love me some needle, I have 1 MD and 1 SB in FS and 3 SB in Tog, but I really think there are better options in an aggro deck like goblins with no trinket mage, ect to tutor for/draw it. (needle is not a goblin)

[GreenOne]

So, how to build a good sb for Rb? Maybe we can agree on the basis of building a good Rb goblins' side.

- 3-4 Aunties (depending if you play 1 MD)
- 4 Graveyard hate (Tormods or Leylines)
- 4 Discard suite (Therapy/duress/thoughtseize)
- 3-4 Slots depending on meta. This could be Needle, (magus of the) Blood moon, Shriekmaw, Terminate, Smother, Pyrokinesis, Perish, EE, more discard, more grave-hate, Shattering Spree, more tinkerers, sharpshooter, etc.

Are we agreeing on that? Remember it's straight Rb, no green splash.

[Media314r8]

I've actually been considering oafelsnout for the goblins SB, as you can vial or flash him out in response to a dread return to fizzle their target and rfg thier bridges, and I don't forsee them 'playing it safe' and slowrolling goblins. He can also be flashed out to rfg a dredger, DA, or return if they do therapy you. Seems fine, if only he were a goblin... then again, he's a better topdeck than leyline and he doesn't mind being bounced.

I really think the discard should be thorns or Chalices, or some combination of both in the remaining slots, as discard just doesnt do much against TES or IGGY, matches you really, REALLY need to win games 2 and 3 of. (them having brainstorm or bob + your discard = not a combo) Most combo (save for alluren and life in some cases, but not as prevalant as storm) can recover from discard pretty quickly, things like thorn and chalice for 0/1 they really have to deal with before they can storm off. This gives you the time you need to kill. Chalice is my weapon of choice (with my controversial 4 thorns MD) as it doesnt cost you any tempo to set at 0, and if they DO wish for shattering, then if you've drawn another, you can usually drop it before they untap and resume their attempt to combo, again for 0 mana.

[Nightmare]

Are you having problems beating Breakfast? I can give you a hint: Turn 1 Mountain, Fanatic, go.

Of course, you guys are cutting him for Sledder or some shit, so I can see how that would be an issue.

[Lepp]

Are you having problems beating Breakfast? I can give you a hint: Turn 1 Mountain, Fanatic, go.

Of course, you guys are cutting him for Sledder or some shit, so I can see how that would be an issue.

ah no shit you dont say...:rolleyes:

hmm whats that daze, oh fow, oh stp, shall i continue?

but ya i md 4 fanatics still.

[Jaiminho]

I've actually been considering oafelsnout for the goblins SB, as you can vial or flash him out in response to a dread return to fizzle their target and rfg thier bridges, and I don't forsee them 'playing it safe' and slowrolling goblins. He can also be flashed out to rfg a dredger, DA, or return if they do therapy you. Seems fine, if only he were a goblin... then again, he's a better topdeck than leyline and he doesn't mind being bounced.

Actually, Vialing him won't do anything. Killing him after vialing will. Note it's "when leaves play", not "when comes into play". Play Stonecloaker. Ok, just kidding.

[Nightmare]

ah no shit you dont say...:rolleyes:

hmm whats that daze, oh fow, oh stp, shall i continue?

but ya i md 4 fanatics still.Wait, since when is Breakfast playing StP and Daze? Also, Gempalm and/or Weirding.

Is this where you go "hmm, whats that stifle, oh trickbind, oh interdict, shall i continue?" I mean, sure there are ways for Breakfast to play around Fanatic, but it slows them down by a ton. You are the aggro deck. While they try to find solutions, win.

[Media314r8]

Actually, Vialing him won't do anything. Killing him after vialing will. Note it's "when leaves play", not "when comes into play". Play Stonecloaker. Ok, just kidding.

Reading cards is tech. Okay, vial + Offalsnout = not a combo. Still decent vs dredge and (some builds of) breakfast. Could fizzle iggy, which seems swell.

Defiantly changing the name to Awfulsnout if I ever put any of these in my board.

[Lepp]

Wait, since when is Breakfast playing StP and Daze? Also, Gempalm and/or Weirding.

Is this where you go "hmm, whats that stifle, oh trickbind, oh interdict, shall i continue?" I mean, sure there are ways for Breakfast to play around Fanatic, but it slows them down by a ton. You are the aggro deck. While they try to find solutions, win.

Sorry, i'm not discrediting fanatic, yes I use 4. Just saying its not an end all answer as you posted. I play against a denial heavy breakfast deck that is able (good hand) on comboing on at the least turn 2. I have also been out of magic for I dunno, 12 years, hince I'm seeing what other people use as answers for it.

[socialite]

Are you having problems beating Breakfast? I can give you a hint: Turn 1 Mountain, Fanatic, go.

Of course, you guys are cutting him for Sledder or some shit, so I can see how that would be an issue.

Didn't you hear Sledder is the BOMB late game.

Oh thats right Goblins has no late game versus combo.

[Tacosnape]

Are you having problems beating Breakfast? I can give you a hint: Turn 1 Mountain, Fanatic, go.

Of course, you guys are cutting him for Sledder or some shit, so I can see how that would be an issue.

Yeah, for real. There seems to be some misconception that Cephalophalid Breffix just steamrolls Goblins no matter what Goblins does. This is anything but the case. Cephalid Breakfast is vulnerable to a ton of your cards and has a very vulnerable manabase.

In fact, just about every change made to the deck makes it worse against Cephalid Breakfast. Like most of the time, Sledder is awful and Fanatic is fantastic here. Pyrokinesis helps. Needle helps. Wasteland helps. Incinerator helps. Crypts help, too.

Tin-Street Hooligan also helps a ton. (Take note, people who cut green.) You're a lot less scared of Abeyance when they don't have Aether Vials. And if they don't have Aether Vials, as long as you don't let them keep creatures on the board, to kill you behind an Abeyance they'd need 5 mana at the minimum, which Cephalid Breakfast sucks at getting in a vacuum and sucks moreso at getting against Wasteland.

Yeah, okay, Cephalid Breakfast sometimes wins the die roll, goes Land, En-Kor, go, Force of Wills your first turn, and then drops an illusionist and eats your face. Combo decks will sometimes be combo decks. This doesn't mean Goblins gets steamrolled.

[EternalDragon09]

I would just like to state about one of my past articles being entirely true!! i played at a local shop last night and tarfire > weirding for sure. The targeted removal won against everything even sacrificed two fanatics and matron for a tarfire ftw against stax when i was completely locked. It killed Dark Confidant instead of a 2/2 random zombie, it killed a Trinket mage in response to them equiping a sword of fire and ice. But however as i stated earlier in one of my previous articles all goblins has to do is run over Tarmogoyf. They cast one really big creature, i cast ALOT of 2/2, 1/1 creatures and win. Everyone in my shop agreed after witnessing that as well, except one guy who is dumb and plays random Tarmogoyf.dec but never makes top so what does that tell you. $160 for 4 Tarmogoyfs and pay $5 everyweek to waste a night at a shop, yeah thats were i want to be at 20 years old.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Please, go to the shrink with jalousyproblems, don't let them out here.

Tarfire can be good, sure thing, but I think a recurring Edict is much, much more scary that a recurring Shock. That card gives you a chance against ********, Tarfire is very bad there. Same with X-color Stompy.

[godryk]

I just want to ask you what your thoughts are about the inability of Warren Weirding to target the creature you want to kill (mostly Goyf) when opponent has more than one creature (mongoose, confidant, etc). I lost games due to not being able to handle their 6/7. Obviously Wort+Weirding is awesome but this isn't happening everyday.

In spanish forums I've suggested Rb(g) Goblins without great success while more experienced Goblin players claim that white splash with swords is better prepared to handle Goyf. Then I came back to The Source and see people loving Weirding. I have to admit that The Source is probably the best Legacy site all over the world, but Goblins has been the clear Tier 1 for years and here we have also good and experienced Goblin players that perfectly know their deck so I have to give them some credit. Anyway innovation cames here with a few months of delay but always arrives sooner or later so maybe it hasn't been tested enough to get popular.

I, personally, have tested the black splash (Wort wins matches!) and I'm liking it although that mentioned scenario happens more often than what I'd like.

I just want to ask how relevant has been that issue in your testing/tournament results.

Thanks.

[asdljas]

I have to agree that I'm loving warren weirding. You can almost set up a soft-lock against random creature decks (read: zombies) with weirding and Wort, while beating them in the head. I think weirding has made Goblin Lackey a strong play again, solving problems such as T1 mongoose, something that Tarfire just cannot claim.

[Nightmare]

I just want to ask you what your thoughts are about the inability of Warren Weirding to target the creature you want to kill (mostly Goyf) when opponent has more than one creature (mongoose, confidant, etc). I lost games due to not being able to handle their 6/7. Obviously Wort+Weirding is awesome but this isn't happening everyday.

In spanish forums I've suggested Rb(g) Goblins without great success while more experienced Goblin players claim that white splash with swords is better prepared to handle Goyf. Then I came back to The Source and see people loving Weirding. I have to admit that The Source is probably the best Legacy site all over the world, but Goblins has been the clear Tier 1 for years and here we have also good and experienced Goblin players that perfectly know their deck so I have to give them some credit. Anyway innovation cames here with a few months of delay but always arrives sooner or later so maybe it hasn't been tested enough to get popular.

I, personally, have tested the black splash (Wort wins matches!) and I'm liking it although that mentioned scenario happens more often than what I'd like.

I just want to ask how relevant has been that issue in your testing/tournament results.

Thanks.
While StP is possibly better as a spot removal spell than Weirding is, there are a few differences that make the Weirding superior in this specific deck. Here's a list, for convenience.


Formost, Warren Weirding is a goblin. This allows it to be found with both Ringleader and Matron. It also costs a single mana with Warchief. It can be recurred with Wort. All of these points are somewhat obvious, but the tutorable, recurrable removal is something that simply cannot be overlooked.
It is black, not white. Both Green and black have significant benefits and contributions to the Goblin archetype that white does not offer. Between Wort and Weirding, as well as a plethora of sideboard options, black has much much more to offer the deck than white.
Swords to Plowshares does not enable a Lackey connection on turn 2 when facing Mongoose. They both deal with Goyf on turn 2, which means that specific point is moot.
Weirding can be used proactively to create another blocker or threat if needed. The Matron->Weirding->turn 1 guy into 2 hastey guys play is not so terrible in a pinch.

All of these points combine into a significant argument for Weirding over Swords in the deck. Yes, StP is better at dealing with a specific card when it's needed. For that, I strongly reccommend you test Shriekmaw in the board, as it does almost everything you want StP to do, and gets vialed in and swings for 3 fear, too.

[TeenieBopper]

Don't forget, just because you're playing Weirding doesn't mean you're not playing Gempalm Incinerator and Mogg Fanatic and sometimes even Goblin Sharpshooter.

Also, what Nightmare said. I think I've played against him enough at this point that he can pretty much speak for me.

[redmage]

Tin-Street Hooligan also helps a ton. (Take note, people who cut green.) You're a lot less scared of Abeyance when they don't have Aether Vials.

Again, Tin-Street doesn't have much more to offer vs. Goblin Tinkerer (Take note, people who still play green.). Tin-Street can only kill one Vial (and that's only if you don't already have a Warchief out). Meanwhile, a single Tinkerer can kill multiple Vials, and he actually gets better with an active Warchief out.

Regarding Cephalid Breakfast, you're correct; There does seem to be a misconception that Cephalid Breakfast just steamrolls Goblins, and Gobs do have quite a few MD options that can throw a wrench in their gears.

[Osse]

Again, Tin-Street doesn't have much more to offer vs. Goblin Tinkerer (Take note, people who still play green.). Tin-Street can only kill one Vial (and that's only if you don't already have a Warchief out). Meanwhile, a single Tinkerer can kill multiple Vials, and he actually gets better with an active Warchief out.

Regarding Cephalid Breakfast, you're correct; There does seem to be a misconception that Cephalid Breakfast just steamrolls Goblins, and Gobs do have quite a few MD options that can throw a wrench in their gears.

You don't get it, do you? How long is the game supposed to go for Breakfast to get Double Vial down, and STILL win? You're supposed to be the Aggro deck here, and you want to play the control deck. It doesn't work like that. Breakfast isn't really combo until it controls the play, which Goblins can disrupt very easily, and win through. If you need to kill multiple vials, you're probably already losing.

[TeenieBopper]

I think you're both trying to say that Breakfast isn't really a horrible match-up.

[redmage]

You don't get it, do you?

I get that you're confusing the issue. This has nothing to do with playing "the Aggro" vs. playing "the Control" role. It has to do with the need for splashing Green for Tin-Street. Tin-Street/Tinkerer are a 1-of "utility goblin". Both are played because of their reactive (control) abilities, and both are pretty poor options if you're looking to play pure aggro.



How long is the game supposed to go for Breakfast to get Double Vial down, and STILL win?

How often are you paired Vs. Breakfeast? Is that your only concern? Do you play mirrors more often (where killing multiple Vials can really make a difference)? How about the ability to kill multiple Chalices/Needles, survive an E. Plague, or to not lose your solution when you've got a Warchief in play?



You're supposed to be the Aggro deck here, and you want to play the control deck. It doesn't work like that.

Tin-Street/Tinkerer are both, 1-of, "control" cards. If you want pure aggro, then don't run either; however, apparently it does "work like that". With your own words, your argument falls appart...



Breakfast isn't really combo until it controls the play, which Goblins can disrupt very easily...

"Disrupt"? Through disruption, you're playing the control role as well; so it does "work like that".


I think you're both trying to say that Breakfast isn't really a horrible match-up.

Agreed.

Osse was just attacking a Straw Man fallacy in the process.

[EternalDragon09]

So when my opponent gets an active jitte and i cant target the creature in response to the equip or removal of counters or beats because i do not run instant speed removal?? then what i wait for him to respond by killing my warchief when i play tinkerer?? uh no..... the thing is with cards like jitte or Sofi is that warchief is almost the first target being i loose tempo no more haste or cheap dumb guys. So then being halfway decent killing the right guy to establish some base of control over the board they have allowed me to play tin-street with its kicker! killing the problem artifact (jitte, SoFI, Ensnaring Bridge, opposing vials....Ect) and on top of that the tin-street is still better he doesnt need to have haste to be good, he lives after taking care of the job, he is aggressive (2/1 not a 1/2). And tinkerer is a win more card because if you have a warchief on board chances are good you should be winning.

[EternalDragon09]

Please, go to the shrink with jalousyproblems, don't let them out here.

Tarfire can be good, sure thing, but I think a recurring Edict is much, much more scary that a recurring Shock. That card gives you a chance against ********, Tarfire is very bad there. Same with X-color Stompy.

First off im not jealous or illiterate so learn how to spell!!!! Second this is not a forum to personally attack, if you will, players.(Not an Oxymoron just so everyone is on the same page so to speak.)ha ha Its to discuss Vial Goblins. And on the subject, goblins is aggro people not control so trying to Edict every turn while good in some or most cases is just not fast enough. That is my opinion which has a lot of logical reasoning behind it, however i would love feedback thank you. :)

[redmage]

So when my opponent gets an active jitte and i cant target the creature in response to the equip or removal of counters or beats because i do not run instant speed removal?? then what i wait for him to respond by killing my warchief when i play tinkerer?? uh no.....the thing is with cards like jitte or Sofi...

Uh... what does that "scenerio" have to do with the Tinkerer? Last I knew, Tin Street Hooligan didn't have Flash. If you're looking for more instant speed removal maybe you should be running more Gempalms, or some supplementary burn. SoFI can't "respond by killing your warchief when you play a tinkerer", and Gobs has many ways to control/remove a Jitte, and/or it's wielder.

The fact of the matter is that Tinkerer and Tin-Street both have their own benefits, and drawbacks. It's really just a meta call, and both are strong options (hell, even the Vandal is a viable option in the right deck/meta).

People can cherry-pick scenerios all day long, both ways, where one would be better than the other, and it still won't change the fact that they're both viable choices.

You see:
Tinkerer Cons; Not aggro enough (1/2 not a 2/1).

Others see:
Tinkerer Pros; Survives E.Plague, and survives combat with opposing Lackeys and un-threshed 'Geese.

Neither side is wrong; I simply don't see the green splash as being necessary any longer.

You seem to be fairly rooted in the belief that "goblins is aggro people, not control", but I've gotta disagree. From all of the tournament data that I've seen, it's always been the lists that can change gears (roles) on-a-dime that have been the most successful vs. a large field. They control the board with cards like Wasteland, Port, Gempalm, Fanatic, ect; they negate cards in hand (Vial vs. counters), and they run tutors (Matron); add in a draw engine (Ringleader), and it's looking like a deck that can play "the control role" quite well (and that's without the Therapy/Duress/Thoughtseize/Blasts from the board).

[puddn]

I have to admit that The Source is probably the best Legacy site all over the world
No it's Legacy-france.com the best one :tongue:

Anyway:
- warren weirding > tarfire
- green splash isn't so necessary than black splash

[Media314r8]

So when my opponent gets an active jitte and i cant target the creature in response to the equip or removal of counters or beats because i do not run instant speed removal?? then what i wait for him to respond by killing my warchief when i play tinkerer?? uh no..... the thing is with cards like jitte or Sofi is that warchief is almost the first target being i loose tempo no more haste or cheap dumb guys. So then being halfway decent killing the right guy to establish some base of control over the board they have allowed me to play tin-street with its kicker! killing the problem artifact (jitte, SoFI, Ensnaring Bridge, opposing vials....Ect) and on top of that the tin-street is still better he doesnt need to have haste to be good, he lives after taking care of the job, he is aggressive (2/1 not a 1/2). And tinkerer is a win more card because if you have a warchief on board chances are good you should be winning.

If my opponent is playing Jitte, I keep a vial @ 2, and they usually want to remove chief as fast as possible, yes? thus with the second -1/-1 counter from jitte on the stack, vial in tinkerer (he still has haste) and kill jitte in response, you lose chief and tinkerer, but jitte dies so you have a chance at winning.

[bladewing019]

First off im not jealous or illiterate so learn how to spell!!!! Second this is not a forum to personally attack, if you will, players.(Not an Oxymoron just so everyone is on the same page so to speak.)ha ha Its to discuss Vial Goblins. And on the subject, goblins is aggro people not control so trying to Edict every turn while good in some or most cases is just not fast enough. That is my opinion which has a lot of logical reasoning behind it, however i would love feedback thank you. :)

Goblins assumes the control role a lot. If it didn't it wouldn't run things like Wasteland and Port. It packs mana denial, card drawing (not just selection), tutors, and runs a bunch of non-aggressively/over-costed creatures (3 mana 1/1s and 4 mana 2/2s), all characteristics of control. One of the decks biggest strengths is its ability to change roles so easily. Read this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3692.html) if you haven't.

[EternalDragon09]

I never said goblins could not or does not assume a controlling roll. It just simply does not win by playing land every turn and passing gripping denial/ removal. As far as the wasteland, port thing goes that is not control just denial. Control is where a deck has mass removal of some sort and well just isn't goblins!!! Come on just because it has some aspects of control as you would like to call it does not mean it is!!!! So the next time i play an aggro deck oh lets say LANDSTILL? I will be sure to run ringleader and matron in place of counterspell and STP because according to some that is control and not aggro based card advantage. Well then again i do suppose that goblins is control now because piledriver is well as most in this particular forum said..... BAD. WHAT? ok im sure i would love to get paired against one person that thinks king is bad and tarfire sucks, playing weirding and wort, then when i bash them because they are trying to edict me/ or them everyturn trying to stay alive i will have more than one driver on the board and they will still think he is a sorry card. That truly is a shame goblins one of the most notorious aggro decks every constructed in legacy has been demeaned to this.

[TeenieBopper]

You've totally missed the point.

[socialite]

:frown:

Tarfire is in the same boat as Goblin Sledder, the Titanic. Im sorry but you would have to have a seriously large object lodged in your head to truly believe Shock is better then an Diabolic Edict effect in a format full of 4/5s and shrouded creatures.

[bladewing019]

You've totally missed the point.

What he said. Also shocks aren't good enough. Playing an Edict effect every single turn is much better against Thresh (all of its variants, which also happens to be the top archetype right now) than playing shock to the dome.

Also I can tell by your post that you didn't read that article I linked to. Do yourself a favor and read it, so you understand what we mean by control.

[Michael Keller]

That truly is a shame goblins one of the most notorious aggro decks every constructed in legacy has been demeaned to this.

That's because people got tired of winning with it. It's like a hard-to-kill virus. The deck has endured and people still play (and win) with it today.

As a side-note: How's Patriarch's Bidding working for you, Mike? Is that something you want to consider keeping and should it stay in the deck? Black is obviously a huge addition, so would it warrant those slots?

[TeenieBopper]

That's because people got tired of winning with it. It's like a hard-to-kill virus. The deck has endured and people still play (and win) with it today.

As a side-note: How's Patriarch's Bidding working for you, Mike? Is that something you want to consider keeping and should it stay in the deck? Black is obviously a huge addition, so would it warrant those slots?

Meh. It hasn't been all that great. It's weird. I'm always pissed off drawing it when I don't want/need it, and then when I want/need it, I never have it. It was great in T2 when you could use it as an additional win condition (Prospector, Sharpshooter, Siege Gang tricks) but we don't have that option in Legacy. It's more of an anti-mass removala card, and we don't need any more of them.

The only time I play it is when I'm building my board and I've got a slot or two left over and I don't know what to put in it. So I shrug and say, "fuck it."

[EternalDragon09]

NO the format is not just consistent of 4/5 or shrouded creatures, it also consists of Dark Confidant and little 2 toughness blockers. (Meddling Mage, Nomad's En-kor, Mishra's Factory and more.....) Tarfire increases your breakfast match up as well, being that they can combo faster than you can do 20 damage to them, so you can RESPOND by killing their Cephalid Sage or Nomad's/ Shaman En-kor. And i did read that link and it was ok i mean i can see logical reasoning but not everything i agree with.

[Jaynel]

Look at some recent Top 8 results. On many occasions, more than half the decks run Tarmogoyfs. Based on this, I'd say that our format LARGELY consists of 1G beaters.

Now look again at Top 8 results, and see how many times Cephalid Breakfast appears.

Weirding is simply better against a huge majority of the format; Tarfire is not. Plus, Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator help your game against Cephalid Breakfast.

[chokin]

NO the format is not just consistent of 4/5 or shrouded creatures, it also consists of Dark Confidant and little 2 toughness blockers. (Meddling Mage, Nomad's En-kor, Mishra's Factory and more.....) Tarfire increases your breakfast match up as well, being that they can combo faster than you can do 20 damage to them, so you can RESPOND by killing their Cephalid Sage or Nomad's/ Shaman En-kor. And i did read that link and it was ok i mean i can see logical reasoning but not everything i agree with.

Mogg Fanatic does this.

Also, Weirding kills more stuff. ZOMG TOMBSTALKER(pretty popular now)!!! Can't Tarfire that one. Thresh is probably the most popular deck in the format right now(besides Dragon Stompy), and sure enough, tons of people play and place with it.

Look at all of the decks that play Goyf. Landstill(some versions), Thresh, Pikula, Breakfast, G/x/x Aggro/Suicide, TEC, The Rock, Survival, Aluren(some), Aggro Loam, Affiniy(some), Goyf Sligh, Goblins(some still do I think) and many others.

Nimble Mongoose isn't as played in decks, but since Thresh is huge right now, you cannot deny that Weirding is much better in almost every situation OTHER than 'zOMG gotta burn my opponent' and 'need to shock that dood'. Even then, we have Incinerator to do that job.

Your reasons to not splash black are weak.

[raharu]

And i did read that link and it was ok i mean i can see logical reasoning but not everything i agree with.

This forum needs a facepalm smiley. That article is pretty much the basis of advanced play technique. Role misassignment cost games and wins tournaments. Trying to counter the preceeding statements should prove difficult, if not impossible, if you were really to try to.

@Tarfire vs. Wierding: Wierding suplements Incinerator, which does all that you want Tarfire to do, but better. Incinerator is uncounterable, nets CA, and does all the other things that it does that I never thought that I would have to explain to a goblins player in my lifetime. Also, you aren't going to respond to en-kor by killing it. Maybe the Illusionist, but not the Nomad. Considering that they generally won't have any other creatures on the board aside from one or the other, you still throw off thier combo, so Tarfire has no merit in this situation.

[Mental]

I'm playing 4x Weirding right now and they're very strong. Especially with Wort. Now that that subject is exhausted, do you guys splash Green in RB goblins, for Hooligan/Grip Postboard? It seems worthwile to me.

[Sasha]

I'm playing 4x Weirding right now and they're very strong. Especially with Wort. Now that that subject is exhausted, do you guys splash Green in RB goblins, for Hooligan/Grip Postboard? It seems worthwile to me.

I've been testing a Rgb list for a few weeks and it showed very good results.
Here's the list i'm playing:

2 Taiga
2 Badland
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain

1 Wort Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief

1 Warren Weirding
4 AEther Vial

SB:
3 Warren Weirding
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip

And this is the strongest version of Goblin i've been running since i started to play it 2 years ago.
Cabal + Leyline makes the combo matchups quiet easy and Weirding is very strong vs ******** and aggro decks.
Krosan Grip is a very strong addition that gets rid of most of the former lethal threats for this deck.
The only matchup that i havent been able to win is aggro loam. But I guess it cant be helped whatever version you run.

[chokin]

I've been testing a Rgb list for a few weeks and it showed very good results.
Here's the list i'm playing:

2 Taiga
2 Badland
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain

1 Wort Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief

1 Warren Weirding
4 AEther Vial

SB:
3 Warren Weirding
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip

And this is the strongest version of Goblin i've been running since i started to play it 2 years ago.
Cabal + Leyline makes the combo matchups quiet easy and Weirding is very strong vs ******** and aggro decks.
Krosan Grip is a very strong addition that gets rid of most of the former lethal threats for this deck.
The only matchup that i havent been able to win is aggro loam. But I guess it cant be helped whatever version you run.

Doesn't the lack of synergy between Hooligan and Warchief suck? Maybe drop him for the second Wort. Also, maybe do a 3/2(or 2/3)split of Incinerators and Weirdings. Weirdings owns. Incinerator is nice for the draw, but usually doesn't do the trick soon enough. Plus it gets a discount from Chief.

Your board looks good, but I like Crypt over LotV. I don't like having dead draws later.

[Jak]

Just wondering, but do you guys just never run into Jitte? You all seemed to have dropped TSH, but what do you do when a resolved Jitte with counters is owning you?

[Tacosnape]

Just wondering, but do you guys just never run into Jitte? You all seemed to have dropped TSH, but what do you do when a resolved Jitte with counters is owning you?

You lose. Or you run Goblin Sledder and lose more because you run Goblin Sledder.

After about a month of messing around with it I've determined that I hate the black splash. Tin-Street and Krosan Grip are way too good. Hooligan's either an undercosted artifact eater or an extremely undercosted 2/1 haste beater. Grip solves everything ever. Oh, and Red has a way to deal with Tarmogoyf, if that's a concern. Here's my current Goblins list.

4 Taiga
6 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Spitebellows
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt

Spitebellows, for all intents and purposes, reads as follows:

1RR, Sorcery: Spitebellows deals 6 damage to target Tarmogoyf, which is almost always enough to kill it since your goblin build doesn't run Enchantments, Planeswalkers, or Tribal cards. If an opponent has more Engineered Plagues in play than you have Krosan Grips, Spitebellows may in rare cases also be used to destroy target opponent, though this will rarely work.

Okay, yeah, it's not a Warren Weirding / Wort lock. It has a worse matchup against Threshold.

However, it has an incredible mirror match, with 4 Hooligans eating every Vial in sight. It also has a pretty solid Dragon Stompy match, as Hooligans can eat Jitte, Chalice, and the opponent's manabase in Chrome Mox. (And Spitebellows is -fantastic- against Dragon Stompy. Watch their face when you do it to a flipped Akroma!) It has a fairly unassailable manabase which can support up to 4 Ports or down to 0 depending on your Port preference.

It actually has a few decent combo matches, too. Crypt + Spitebellows + Fanatic slaughters Ichorid. Crypt + Pyrokinesis + Fanatic gives you a pretty solid fighting chance against Cephalid Breakfast. Lots of Hooligans ups your chances of racing turn 4-5 kill decks. You still die to TES and Belcher and SI and stuff like that, but Goblins has been doing a good job of dying to speed combo decks since Legacy began. As long as half the universe plays Threshold, those decks won't be seen all that commonly. (Also, it's actually possible to Pyrokinesis your way through an ETW to beat Belcher, or randomly Wasteland TES into a rough spot, so they aren't complete auto-losses, just really bad.)

Mostly, though, the mirror is pretty crucial. Our last tournament was over 1/3 Goblins, and R/G + 4 Hooligans crushes face in the mirror.

Just a thought if you're not a huge fan of black but like me felt compelled to play it due to Wort and Warren Weirding. You don't have to.

EDIT: I fully expect the suggestion of not running black to be 4C Landstill's Not Running Wasteland all over again, so I won't argue that the black splash has anything wrong with it. I just personally hate it and never had good results with it.

[fallenphoenix]

When I see some of you talk about Tarfire, I cannot get around suggesting the "Tribal - Changeling" Removals.
Nameless Inversion is a "Goblin (,Elf, Beast, whatever)"-Removal, killing anything Tarfire kills plus any x/3s, like Kird Ape/Skyshroud Elite, Finkel Mages, pumped Factories etc...
Basically it's just a better Last Gasp.

Crib Swab is the same, just like StoP. Ofc it's a slightly worse version of StoP, but at least the opponent does not gain 4-5 Life/Goyf. A 1/1 vanilla can be dealt with/overrun, i suppose.

Both are recurrable with Wort, both get cheaper with Warchief and both are tutorable with Ringleader/Matron, both are instants, so you can interrupt your opponents Breakfast-Combo, one of them kills goyfs reliably.

I guess they have to be tested, but both look better than Tarfire.

Go figure...

[Nihil Credo]

I don't know what you're smoking, Tacosnape, other than possibly Pointlesslys Nonconformistia. To me, Warren Weirding is the whole reason that Goblins feels like an unfair deck again. Wort isn't as critical, but it's still a must-counter for most of my opponent.

And what's with packing Tarmogoyf answers in the sideboard only (and terrible ones at that, when compared to Weirding)? If your meta looks like 2006, fine, but outside of that your build is unjustifiable. Whatever mirror advantage 4 Hooligans over 2 Worts give you, it just can't be compared to what Weirding and Wort give you against half of the meta.

And finally, why do you have to give up on Grip/Hooligan to play black? Run eight fetches and you'll easily support two Taigas for the SB Grips, and one maindeck Hooligan if you need it (personally, my answer to Jitte is "kill your creature, swing"). You wouldn't want non-Red basics anyway. All you lose are two Rishadan Ports, hardly critical.

[Media314r8]

I'm going to have to agree with Nihil on this one Taco. Pounding face at your meta is fine, but I really don't think your deck could ever win any large tournaments. Cutting black becasue you've had bad luck with it in the past is not a good enough reason to cut the best goblin removal spell ever printed. You also just throw your hands up and pray that a turn 4 or 5 kill will get there against fast combo and burn. In a 5-7 Round tournament, and if you plan on T8ing, you WILL run into fast combo (though admittidly, probably not burn). I go to tournaments planning to win. Meh, again, fine for local metagame, but I would never consider it for anything outside of that.

[Lepp]

Tacos list is strong in the mirror. I run a bastard r/b build, and it did smash me 2 games. Although 1st game was a shit hand i should of mulliganed, and 2nd game was a completely wrong sideboard call. With that being said, I feel any mono red or red with a light splash of green deck has the advantage against me. Especially game 1. This is the first tourny that I've had to play another goblin deck. Anywho top 3 all goblins haha. Ya was a janky tournament though, people trying out new decks and failing with them :wink: . Also its the tourny we run in town to try and get new players into legacy, and the newer guys are new. So deck quality isn't tier 1 per se.

[scrumdogg]

My problem isn't with his list or the idea of Rg instead or Rb or Rbg. My issue comes from the idea that a creature (or spell) that costs :g: in a deck with only non-basics having game versus Blood Moon. As soon as they land a Blood Moon, your deck loses the ability to deal with their artifacts. At least you can take out Magus without difficulty, but what about the 40% of games where they see a Blood Moon (assuming 4x in the deck at that point)? Is Dragon Stompy not that popular where you are (ironic given how much you've contributed to the deck...) or are there tricks of which I'm unaware?

[Tacosnape]

And what's with packing Tarmogoyf answers in the sideboard only (and terrible ones at that, when compared to Weirding)?

Because I'm still not convinced you need Tarmogoyf answers game one other than Gempalm Incinerator and an army of Goblins. I've always been able to handle Tarmogoyf by swarming. What I can't handle is when UGR brings in Pyroclasms from the board to back it up, or Survival brings in Plagues, or whatever the case may be.


My problem isn't with his list or the idea of Rg instead or Rb or Rbg. My issue comes from the idea that a creature (or spell) that costs :g: in a deck with only non-basics having game versus Blood Moon. As soon as they land a Blood Moon, your deck loses the ability to deal with their artifacts. At least you can take out Magus without difficulty, but what about the 40% of games where they see a Blood Moon (assuming 4x in the deck at that point)? Is Dragon Stompy not that popular where you are (ironic given how much you've contributed to the deck...) or are there tricks of which I'm unaware?

Games 2 and 3 I don't generally have to worry about it, as Dragon Stompy cuts Blood Moon for Pyrokinesis. Game 1, if they get a Moon out that fast, then I at least have an extra turn to develop my forces before I face a Jitte'd creature. That might be enough to handle it with a Gempalm Incinerator. Probably not, but the possibility exists.

Dragon Stompy is actually ridiculously popular where I play, second to only, ironically, Goblins. Magus, as you said, is a pushover, and Blood Moon either doesn't hit that often or is often the first thing on the Chrome Mox so that the opponent has the cards to -play- the big threat and the Jitte. On occasion Moon will come down and cause problems. C'est la vie. I'd run a Forest to correct this, but if the Moon came down fast enough I couldn't fetch it anyway.

EDIT: Also, doesn't the Blood Moon argument hurt R/B worse, given that it shuts off Warren Weirding? Or are people playing basic Swamps now?

[Sasha]

My problem isn't with his list or the idea of Rg instead or Rb or Rbg. My issue comes from the idea that a creature (or spell) that costs :g: in a deck with only non-basics having game versus Blood Moon. As soon as they land a Blood Moon, your deck loses the ability to deal with their artifacts. At least you can take out Magus without difficulty, but what about the 40% of games where they see a Blood Moon (assuming 4x in the deck at that point)? Is Dragon Stompy not that popular where you are (ironic given how much you've contributed to the deck...) or are there tricks of which I'm unaware?

You don't care about DS artifact, the only threat he has is its equipments. You've got 4 gempalms for that. And believe me, a good DS player would never keep his Moons MD for the second game.

[Media314r8]

EDIT: Also, doesn't the Blood Moon argument hurt R/B worse, given that it shuts off Warren Weirding? Or are people playing basic Swamps now?

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
6 [OD] Mountain (4)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [B] Badlands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LRW] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
3 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
3 [MOR] Earwig Squad

// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [5E] Goblin King
SB: 1 [LRW] Tarfire

The King/Tarfie slot is in flux right now, with the possibility of them being (of course) goblin sledders to help vs jitte and dredge. Tarfire is for the control/prison MU, where wort + tarfire is a wincon if SGC is needled. King is for mirror KILL NOW and magus, as well as decking running mountains, and to serve as the 5th lord effect against plague

Yes, I went down to 1 driver, and yes, I'm playing Frogtosser (I run 2 less lands than avg and 6 'chiefs') and Squad, but I've found forgtosser to be the best turn two play you can make without the obvious OMG lackey connects, I am the winRAR. Turn three cheif and matron is much sexier than chief, go. Squad helps the combo MU somewhat, without being as dead as thorn in most matchups, and he can sometimes trade with goyf for B or 1B. Wierding has been insane, but incinerator's ability to instant-speed, uncounterable cantripkill is still really, really good, esp with frogtosser.

Anyhow, I've been running anywhere between 1 and 2 basic swamps ever since I started splashing black.

[kabal]

For the people that have actually played Warren Weirding in a tournament, how did it fare?

What were the decks that you ended up facing?

What was breakdown of the number of Gempalm Incinerator and Weirding?

[Tacosnape]

I suppose the basic swamp isn't all that implausible without Rishadan Port in the way. I could always run a basic forest if the Blood Moon thing ever became an issue, but I've still yet to ever see a DS player leave Blood Moon in against a primarily red deck. And Pyrokinesis/Gempalm makes Magus of the Moon pretty fragile.

Also, Dragon Stompy players definitely aren't going to start leaving Moon in the deck if Goblins starts displaying a tendency of occasionally running a splash-color basic. This would be lunacy if even the threat of such a play exists. Better to shut off Hooligan/Weirding with a Chalice for 2 than to attempt a Blood Moon.

[Sasha]

Has anyone found a way to play against aggro loam decks? This matchup is a nightmare. The only technic i found was to play CotV at 2, but you can only play it turn 4, and Aggro Loam have a lot of solutions for it.

[Nihil Credo]

In terms of deckbuilding:

- Play four Weirdings. Play four Piledrivers. If you can fit in 1-2 Hooligans, the better.
- Sideboard Leyline or possibly Extirpate, not Crypt.
- Sideboard Pithing Needle (for Seismic Assault), unless players in your area run Chalice, in which case it's better to go with the standard Krosan Grips.

In terms of gameplay:
- Don't overextend. Have a plan ready for a Devastating Dreams.
- Pay attention to your Wastelands. Loam can recover from LD easily, but at the right time you can still Time Walk them and steal wins. Hooligan on a Mox Diamond is even better.

[Media314r8]

I just played an aggro loam deck with my RB, and wierding, vial, and earwig squad are your buddies. Squad took away the dreams, and ringleaders through vial kept my hand loaded and the pressure on. Wasteland/tinkerer moxen to keep them off seismic assault mana, if they get a seismic, you probably lose. If you can get a wort to stick, its really hard for them to win with recurring wierdings.

EDIT: Nihil beat me to it. The biggest is dont overextend. (unless you play squads, in which case, you know exactly whats in their hand/deck, and bash face.) Ringleaders > all. SGC can usually milk about 6 damage, but keep vial at four for aunties and ringleaders, unless you have two mana for SGC EOT, untap, win.

[Elficidium]

Am I seriously the only one not having any trouble with the Aggroloam matchup?

I play Rbg with 2 Gempalm/3 Weirding and 4 Leylines on the side. As long as you don't overextend and keep in mind to keep hands with sufficient mana, you should be ok.

Leyline slows them down if you have it in your opening hand and annoys them if you hardcast. Devastating dreams just makes it a race to recover. They might have their manabase back up a bit faster, they're still quite easily smashed down by a Piledriver.

Still not convinced about the Earwig Squad though. I have 1 Free goblin Slot MB and 1 SB, which are taken by Tin-Street and Mad Auntie. I wouldnt really know what to cut for the Squads in terms of goblins, since the Auntie is necessary vs Plague.

[puddn]

Has anyone found a way to play against aggro loam decks?

at my last french tournament (47 people i finished 5th), my last round was against RG aggro loam with countryside crusher, terravore and goyf... big beasts!
Well i loose the game 1 (burning wish into pyroclasm, devastating dreams, terravore 12/12 trample, big crusher,...).
At the 2nd, i side in 2 weirding and 4 pyrokinesis. I won on a devasting dream at 2 which made him discard terravore and goyf, and i killed his crusher (he has played it after DD) with pyrokinesis.
Game 3, i won because at the 2nd, i had wished for pyroclasm but he forgot to put it in his side befor the game 3, so he took a game loss

So aggro loam is defavorable (you can win with a lot of chance) and i don't think you can win after side in... maybe weirding is one of your best solutions if he doesn't play wasteland on your badlands. Pyrokinesis is also a plus. But the big threaten is terravore which can be very big with trample

[Elficidium]

and i don't think you can win after side in... maybe weirding is one of your best solutions if he doesn't play wasteland on your badlands. Pyrokinesis is also a plus. But the big threaten is terravore which can be very big with trample

Most Rb lists run Weirding main and with Leyline post-side, I think you're being a bit pessimistic.

[The Marco]

POP from the side should improve that matchup.

[puddn]

POP? what's this

[Deviruchi]

Im not sure but maybe Price of Progress.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Price of Pop music?

I dont like pop in the sb because it is "just" a big burn spell, and we also run a lot of nonbasic lands...

[The Marco]

Price of Pop music?

I dont like pop in the sb because it is "just" a big burn spell, and we also run a lot of nonbasic lands...

Yeah...but you should be dealing enough damages early game that it won't matter. It's an excellent finisher against deck like Aggro Loam, when they have board control. Plus it fits the aggro nature of the deck rather then playing Leyline or other combo hate. "Just" a burn spell...dealing between 6 and ... damages is good I heard!

[Media314r8]

@ PoP in the SB: PoP doesnt beat ichorid, it does prety much nothing to iggy, and PoP + your nonbasics+ thier diamond mox + devastating dreams = not a combo, and possibly only 2-4 damage (they WILL fetch basics after they see your wastes)

[Tacosnape]

Additionally, Aggro Loam can beat you with all of three lands on the board, or less if they get Mox Diamonds. And one Price of Progress for 6-8 doesn't exactly fare well when their guys swing for 6-8 apiece per turn.

Tuning Goblins to beat Aggro Loam is about as fruitful as trying to tune Dragon Stompy to beat Enchantress, or Landstill to beat 43 Land, or White Weenie to beat The Epic Storm. You're probably better off shoring up your other matches, hoping Combo stomps Aggro Loam, taking the occasional Aggro Loam loss like a champ, and trying to X-1 your way in.

And if you run the Quad-Weirding build, all isn't lost. Just keep them off Devastating Dreams (Earwig Squad helps, otherwise you're just going to hope they don't draw it.) If you run my Quad-Hooligan build, attack their Moxes and Taigas like crazy. Unfavorable doesn't mean you can't randomly steal a win every now and again.

[xsockmonkeyx]

And if you run the Quad-Weirding build, all isn't lost. Just keep them off Devastating Dreams (Earwig Squad helps, otherwise you're just going to hope they don't draw it.) If you run my Quad-Hooligan build, attack their Moxes and Taigas like crazy. Unfavorable doesn't mean you can't randomly steal a win every now and again.

Or something like this could happen:


Game 3, i won because at the 2nd, [he] had wished for pyroclasm but he forgot to put it in his side befor the game 3, so he took a game loss

[Nihil Credo]

Tuning Goblins to beat Aggro Loam is about as fruitful as trying to tune Dragon Stompy to beat Enchantress, or Landstill to beat 43 Land, or White Weenie to beat The Epic Storm.
As an Aggro Loam pilot/designer, let me emphasize that it isn't nearly as bad a matchup as you paint it. A Weirding build, properly piloted (see my earlier post), is around 50% likely to win each game, and may even be favoured postboard if you have significant hate (that means Leyline/Extirpate/Planar Void, not Price of Progress) and they don't.

Of course, if you don't run Weirding then you will just lose to a bunch of fat guys. But even a suboptimal Goblins build can still steal games - Aggro Loam often happens to have slow starts, which the little red guys excelt at taking advantage of.

[Tacosnape]

As an Aggro Loam pilot/designer, let me emphasize that it isn't nearly as bad a matchup as you paint it. A Weirding build, properly piloted (see my earlier post), is around 50% likely to win each game, and may even be favoured postboard if you have significant hate (that means Leyline/Extirpate/Planar Void, not Price of Progress) and they don't.

Of course, if you don't run Weirding then you will just lose to a bunch of fat guys. But even a suboptimal Goblins build can still steal games - Aggro Loam often happens to have slow starts, which the little red guys excelt at taking advantage of.

Maybe it just feels like every time I play against it my opponent starts with an average of 1.5 Mox Diamonds in his opening hand. (Ditto with Suicide Black and Dark Rituals. It always beats me but I never win with it.) I'm sort of surprised the matchup isn't better due to Devastating Dreams, but I can see where it would be difficult to set Dreams up quickly to where it didn't hurt you also.

I'm still in the process of trying to get Aggro Loam built, so I'll give the matchup some more testing from both ends then, since around here, even the ducks at the park around here run Goblins.

[Phantom]

At this point, Aggro Loam is probably the best deck that is completely impossible to nail down solid matchup numbers about since all the builds are so damn different. I have both a R/G and a R/B/G Loam in my tiny meta, and i think they both have slightly positive matchups against goblins (green splash).

I can see how a black splash would help game one, but wouldn't it leave you with few outs when the plagues inevitably come in game 2?

[Tacosnape]

At this point, Aggro Loam is probably the best deck that is completely impossible to nail down solid matchup numbers about since all the builds are so damn different. I have both a R/G and a R/B/G Loam in my tiny meta, and i think they both have slightly positive matchups against goblins (green splash).

I can see how a black splash would help game one, but wouldn't it leave you with few outs when the plagues inevitably come in game 2?

Does Aggro Loam run Plague?

I think this confirms your first sentence. Nobody's even sure what the deck's running because the builds vary so greatly.

[The Marco]

@ PoP in the SB: PoP doesnt beat ichorid, it does prety much nothing to iggy, and PoP + your nonbasics+ thier diamond mox + devastating dreams = not a combo, and possibly only 2-4 damage (they WILL fetch basics after they see your wastes)

Fanatic, Weirding (on your own creatures), Gemplam on your creatures does beat Ichorid. I'll at least give you that it does little against Iggy (which I haven't seen in a while and is a highly defavorable matchup anyways), but POP straight up kills several decks...granted it's not exactly the best against Aggro Loam if they work around it (which should slow them down a little, maybee enough for you to deal enough damages to get them to a critical point).

[kabal]

Here is BG version that placed 3rd @ a 44 person tournament in Japan. Thoughts?

MB Earwig with no Piledriver and SB Fodder Launch. No Piledriver seems like a huge mistake, but he is supplementing it with Earwig and Goon. As for "Fodder", that seems like it should have been Weirding.

Ono Masayuki (http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/AMC_33rd_E.html)

Main:
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Goon
3 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 AEther Vial


Sideboard:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Earwig Squad
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Fodder Launch

[TeenieBopper]

Three colors plus 4x waste/port makes me cringe. No SGC is really weird too, since he basically switched them for Goon, and SGC is obviously the more powerful card. I'm not really getting the hype around Earwig Squad, either. LIke, I know it's good, but I'm not positive it warrants sideboard slots, let alone maindeck ones.

I guess I can't really say that it's bad, but it does look like it's tuned to beat a very specific meta.

[GreenOne]

I guess I can't really say that it's bad, but it does look like it's tuned to beat a very specific meta.
Yeah, I'm with this man.

[Nihil Credo]

Goblin Goon should also be SGC. Among other, more important and obvious reasons, it also makes Incinerator much more powerful.

Aside from that, those maindeck Earwig Squads may be one of the best metagame calls I have ever seen. The Japanese seem to love their non-Storm combo decks.

Looking for decks that get raped by triple-Extract:

#1 - Trinket Mage toolbox
#2 - MUC with 4 win conditions (plus Shackles)
#5 - Cephalid Breakfast
#8 - Jar combo with 3 Tendrils of Agony
#9 - Aluren
#10 - MUC with 4 win conditions (plus Shackles)
#16 - Survival/Gifts creature tutor deck
#17 - Aluren
#18 - Time Vault combo with 3 Vaults
#23 - Ichorid
#29 - Cephalid Breakfast
#33 - Gamekeeper

and probably several more. And I didn't count the ones against which Squad was just 'strong' (e.g. some Landstill lists with only three sweepers, or black-based aggro with 2-3 Jittes).

[Roldaice]

It depends of the metagame, indeed, which is not really a combo one here, but 0 Piledriver 0 SGC is surprising.

[Tacosnape]

Aside from the really bonkers-seeming choices of goblins, the manabase of the above build is very intriguing. Specifically, it didn't have a basic Mountain in it.

Does Goblins need Basic Mountains to survive? And how many? Certainly the ever-played Blood Moon doesn't hurt any more than usual here, and if Moonthresh is on the rise, Threshold won't be running Wasteland as often. Would the vulnerability to hopefully-declining Wasteland or the occasional rogue Back to Basics be worth the consistency of being able to easily support and operate Tin-Street Hooligan and Warren Weirding in the same deck?

Specifically, can you run the following manabase

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

And not be exceedingly bitten in the ass for it? Discuss.

[TeenieBopper]

Aside from the really bonkers-seeming choices of goblins, the manabase of the above build is very intriguing. Specifically, it didn't have a basic Mountain in it.

Does Goblins need Basic Mountains to survive? And how many? Certainly the ever-played Blood Moon doesn't hurt any more than usual here, and if Moonthresh is on the rise, Threshold won't be running Wasteland as often. Would the vulnerability to hopefully-declining Wasteland or the occasional rogue Back to Basics be worth the consistency of being able to easily support and operate Tin-Street Hooligan and Warren Weirding in the same deck?

Specifically, can you run the following manabase

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

And not be exceedingly bitten in the ass for it? Discuss.

Could you run it? Yeah, probably. Would I suggest it? Probably not. One of the strongest things about Goblins used to be the stability of its mana base. Two colors is still incredibly stable, but three? I still hate running three colors, but there's simply too many strong cards in both green and black to easily justify not running them.

Having been Waste locked before, I'll simply say this: you need have some serious freakin' cojones to even think about running that mana base.

[Tacosnape]

Two colors is still incredibly stable, but three? I still hate running three colors, but there's simply too many strong cards in both green and black to easily justify not running them.

This is sort of the thought process I find myself permanently stuck at. I could say to hell with most of the cards any nonred color gives me except that Green gives me Tin-Street Hooligan and Krosan Grip, and Black gives me Warren Weirding, and playing without any of the three leaves me feeling sort of naked.

At the moment I'm sticking with R/G with quad maindeck Hooligans, as my metagame is rife with Goblin mirrors where Hooligan shines and Weirding doesn't. I'm still running Spitebellows as my Goyf answer in board as sort of a slightly-slower-but-on-color Shriekmaw that also kills Tombstalker.

[TeenieBopper]

At the moment I'm sticking with R/G with quad maindeck Hooligans, as my metagame is rife with Goblin mirrors where Hooligan shines and Weirding doesn't. I'm still running Spitebellows as my Goyf answer in board as sort of a slightly-slower-but-on-color Shriekmaw that also kills Tombstalker.

Not gonna lie, I got a half stock thinking about Spitebellows'ing out a 'goyf the first time you mentioned it.

[kabal]

Basically just got done playing this build in a 21-person tournament to a split for 1st. Port was the MVP and I would definitely argue against it's exclusion.

// Lands
4 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Lackey

// Spells
1 Warren Weirding

// Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Goblin King
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Warren Weirding

---

1 : B/U Reanimator (2-1)
2 : Ugw Counterbalance Threshold (2-0)
3 : Angel Stompy (0-2)
4 : Affinity (2-1)
5 : Salvagers Combo (2-0)
6 : Rack.dec (2-0)

[Braves]

Basically just got done playing this build in a 21-person tournament to a split for 1st. Port was the MVP and I would definitely argue against it's exclusion.

// Lands
4 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Lackey

// Spells
1 Warren Weirding

// Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Goblin King
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Warren Weirding

---

1 : B/U Reanimator (2-1)
2 : Ugw Counterbalance Threshold (2-0)
3 : Angel Stompy (0-2)
4 : Affinity (2-1)
5 : Salvagers Combo (2-0)
6 : Rack.dec (2-0)

Very nice job Brett. My gobbos did not do so well last night.

[whienot]

@ Kabal

How many times did Wort, Boggart Auntie become a factor in games? Recurring a weirding seems really strong, especially against thresh and reanimator. Did you ever wish you had more than two post board?

[kabal]

@ Kabal

How many times did Wort, Boggart Auntie become a factor in games? Recurring a weirding seems really strong, especially against thresh and reanimator. Did you ever wish you had more than two post board?

She really wasn't a factor, has neither was Weirding. It wasn't because I didn't see either, just because Goblins was Goblins ... Lackey into relevant Goblins FTW.

There was twice were the combo of Wort and Weirding could have been game breaking. Once against Reanimator where I had Wort in play and Weirding in hand and it was the same Vs. Salvagers.

Honestly, Hooligan much more relevant this tournament. Most of the time I wished I had MB > 1

@Braves

Thx ...

[Berzerked]

The list looks pretty tight. I've always like 23 lands over 22, and with 3 colors and Ports, that's definitely the right choice.

Was Incinerator necessarily better than Wierding, or would you concider switching up the numbers?

Did Pyromancer win any games? I assume you like him better than Sharpshooter. For what reason?

[Illissius]

Mogg Fanatic has come up from time to time, and the verdict thus far -- which I agreed with -- has always been "keep him". Is this still the case? Ichorid and Breakfast are diminishing in popularity, and decks which play creatures these days often play extremely fat ones -- Goyf, Doran, Crusher, and friends. Fanatic's potential impact on games seems to be much lower right now than at any time in recent memory; the only two important creatures I can think of offhand which are still commonly played and he kills are Birds of Paradise and Dark Confidant (EDIT: okay, and I obviously forgot the mirror, where he kills Lackey). Is this enough to keep playing him? A 1/1 who deals one damage is just a lower level of power than basically every other card in the deck. Would it be worth cutting him for more of the more powerful removal options, for example? Weirdings and Gempalms and such. There's also definitely the issue of mana curve to consider, though.

[Osse]

Mogg Fanatic has come up from time to time, and the verdict thus far -- which I agreed with -- has always been "keep him". Is this still the case? Ichorid and Breakfast are diminishing in popularity, and decks which play creatures these days often play extremely fat ones -- Goyf, Doran, Crusher, and friends. Fanatic's potential impact on games seems to be much lower right now than at any time in recent memory; the only two important creatures I can think of offhand which are still commonly played and he kills are Birds of Paradise and Dark Confidant (EDIT: okay, and I obviously forgot the mirror, where he kills Lackey). Is this enough to keep playing him? A 1/1 who deals one damage is just a lower level of power than basically every other card in the deck. Would it be worth cutting him for more of the more powerful removal options, for example? Weirdings and Gempalms and such. There's also definitely the issue of mana curve to consider, though.

I'm pretty sure you keep him because he's a goblin that fits the curve perfectly. In stuff like Zoo or Boros the only card that was red in the 1 mana slot was Lavamancer, and I don't think that's any better than Fanatic here. The fact is that Fanatic can be huge in any given game because of the math advantages it can provide. In my build (Which is TB's from a few pages back), he gets the added advantage of being that "deal 1 uncounterable damage per turn" with Wort. I don't think I'd ever cut him. Ever.

[scrumdogg]

But does he merit a 4-of slot these days? What is the right proportion of Weirdings/Incinerators/Fanatics in a meta that sees fewer delightful targets for the damn 1/1 who always kills my Birds of Paradise...? <request from a long time SotF player, cut him entirely, thx....>

[Osse]

I think he does. I think with Weirding/Incinerator etc, you go something like this:
4 Fanatic
3-4 Weirding
1-3 Incinerator
0-1 Sharpshooter

Of course, it depends on the meta, and the rest of the maindeck. I just know that Weirding is VERY strong in conjunction with Incinerator. As sometimes you will Incinerator the goyf, weirding the mongoose, and swing for the win.

[J.V.]

I personally like:
Main:
4 Fanatic
2 Weirding
2 Incinerator

Side:
2 Weirding

[Tacosnape]

She really wasn't a factor, has neither was Weirding. It wasn't because I didn't see either, just because Goblins was Goblins ... Lackey into relevant Goblins FTW.

There was twice were the combo of Wort and Weirding could have been game breaking. Once against Reanimator where I had Wort in play and Weirding in hand and it was the same Vs. Salvagers.

Honestly, Hooligan much more relevant this tournament. Most of the time I wished I had MB > 1


Would you have still won this tournament if you were running R/G with 3-4 maindecked Hooligans and no Weirding/Wort? Would you have won it even easier?

I'm not trying to make a point. I seriously want to know your opinion on this.

[Roldaice]

Would you have still won this tournament if you were running R/G with 3-4 maindecked Hooligans and no Weirding/Wort? Would you have won it even easier?
I think it's a little bit hard to answer this question, based on suppositions like that..well we'll see.
I think a 3-3 WW/Incinerator MD could be interesting.

[Tacosnape]

Alright, so, if I play Goblins at the next tournament, here's the list I'm going in with.

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

SB:
3/4 Pyrokinesis
4 Warren Weirding
4 Krosan Grip
3/4 Tormod's Crypt

So yes, I'm splashing black exclusively for Warren Weirding. This is essentially my RG list with +2 Badlands, +4 SB Warren Weirding, -1 Taiga, -1 Mountain, -4 SB Spitebellows. The 4th Hooligan could be a Wort (Or 3rd and 4th could be Gempalm/Wort), but they aren't. That's not the point I want to argue.

Above is a streamlined splash list. The entire maindeck list functions on only red (Although Hooligan becomes just a 2/1 beater.) Pyrokinesis will help against creature-based combo, Goblin mirrors, Sui Black, and anything with small threats. Warren Weirding's for the bigger guys. The Tarmogoyfs, the Dorans, the Nimble Mongeese, the Arc-Sloggers, etc. I stuck with Crypt even with the Black splash because I don't need a color (or mana at all, for that matter) to cast it, regardless of when I get it, and I like the ability to go Mountain/Fanatic/Crypt on turn one against Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast.

So I guess my point is that this is a list designed to emphasize the strengths of mono-red, excluding Wasteland vulnerability, by making hitting the splash colors entirely optional, thereby improving consistency. Thoughts on the validity of this strategy or the build in general?

(Also, after tinkering around with Eva Green, I've started questioning my Krosan Grip slots on occasion. Is Seal of Primordium worth a possible split to avoid problems with things like Therapy/Extirpate, along with the ability to hit Standstill if it's out pre-emptively? Or does Krosan Grip's raw power make it correct for all four slots?)

[Waikiki]

I'd probably run weirding as a 1-off main. Also wort is really great maindeck.

Just something small but I think bloodstained mire > windswept heath.

[Tacosnape]

Just something small but I think bloodstained mire > windswept heath.

Er. I do run Mire, not Heath. (And that's a pretty huge difference.) I just typed that in wrong. Fixed.

[xycsoscyx]

How useful have the Ports been? I used to run 4 in my build (before Green or Black splashes became good, ahh the good ole days of RW Gobs), but haven't been running them lately as they haven't been nearly as useful in matches.

I would also advocate the inclusion of Wort, though a lot of times she can be a win-more card, she can also give you a win that you shouldn't have had otherwise (basically, she's not strictly a win-more card). Being able to continually cycle Polluter is amazing, as well (not just for picking of critters, but to get through your deck quicker as well).

Last, what's your thoughts on Mad Auntie? Especially if you're facing a lot of other Goblin decks, she is amazing. Especially with Red Thresh (ie. Lightning Bolts) seemingly the most popular build, it's reall nice to be able regen a guy (or make them waste a Bolt on Auntie while Piledriver swings for the win).

[Tacosnape]

How useful have the Ports been? I used to run 4 in my build (before Green or Black splashes became good, ahh the good ole days of RW Gobs), but haven't been running them lately as they haven't been nearly as useful in matches.

I like two. Here's why.

In the old days of Goblins, turn one Vial, turn two-through-five Port-your-land-while-my-Vial-Wins was a very powerful strategy. Now, decks are faster. Tarmogoyfs hit at the speed of light, Moxes and accelerators are everywhere, pitch spells are everywhere, and the Port strategy isn't as powerful as it used to be.

But sometimes, Port is still really really good and can still win you games. It can keep people off a color, off a mana period, and it's still really good against Landstill.

The biggest drawback of the 4-Port days was how occasionally you'd hit a mana configuration of something like Mountain, Wasteland, Port, Port, and be sitting there with Warchiefs in your hand going "Dur..." a lot. Multiple Ports in the faster (Tarmogoyf-filled) metagame suck. Bad.

4 Wastelands and 2 Ports puts me rarely struggling for a second red, and lets me use Port when I get it, if I need to, without worrying about hitting multiples of it very often and without running so many that it hurts me color-wise very often.


I would also advocate the inclusion of Wort, though a lot of times she can be a win-more card, she can also give you a win that you shouldn't have had otherwise (basically, she's not strictly a win-more card). Being able to continually cycle Polluter is amazing, as well (not just for picking of critters, but to get through your deck quicker as well).

Eh. It's possible. I'm just not a fan. I want anything that's a 4-drop or higher to give me instant gratification. Ringleader refills my hand whether you remove it or not, and Siege-Gang's going to give me three goblins on the board to play with and skyrocket my Gempalm power. Wort has to wait a turn to do anything cool. Granted, she's fantastic if she sticks, but the tempo loss if she gets removed is crippling.


Last, what's your thoughts on Mad Auntie? Especially if you're facing a lot of other Goblin decks, she is amazing. Especially with Red Thresh (ie. Lightning Bolts) seemingly the most popular build, it's reall nice to be able regen a guy (or make them waste a Bolt on Auntie while Piledriver swings for the win).

I dislike Mad Auntie for the same reasons I like Tin-Street Hooligan: Warchief interaction. Auntie can't do her regen ability immediately unless you have a Warchief in play, and if you have a Warchief in play, your opponent doesn't have a Lightning Bolt anyway.

In other words:

Tin-Street Hooligan: Best without a Warchief, but if you have a Chief down, you usually don't need his ability.

Mad Auntie: Best with a Warchief, but if you have a Chief down, you usually don't need her ability.

If nothing else, though, she does allow you to swing into a lone Goyf blocker if there aren't any other problems. So would Warren Weirding, though.

Plus, Mad Auntie, while good, just doesn't outshine any other Goblin in the deck enough to warrant a slot for me. That and I can't play her if I'm held to just red, which is a crucial point for my maindeck.

[TrialByFire]

Other than the fact that I would switch one Tin Street and one Wierding from Sb to main and vice versa, I think this list is very strong. I agree that Wort is not all its cracked up to be. She is underwhelming a lot of th time she hits, and when she would actually be game breaking she just dies. Very nice list Taco.

[Bovinious]

Tacosnape: Why the 4 Tin-Street? What do you really want to blow up all that bad and that often? Also, 22 land seems a bit below the standard, especially with 3 colors and 6 non red source, have you found that to be a problem?

[technogeek5000]

If i were to play goblins, it would seem that having sort of a toolbox of creatures to search with ringleader and matron would seem strong. 3c goblins with singletons of weirding, banneret, wort, tin-street, and mad auntie (and maybe earwig squad or sharpshooter) could cause alot of damage. Wort and weirding are incredible together and weirding is still a great card by itself.

[Osse]

If i were to play goblins, it would seem that having sort of a toolbox of creatures to search with ringleader and matron would seem strong. 3c goblins with singletons of weirding, banneret, wort, tin-street, and mad auntie (and maybe earwig squad or sharpshooter) could cause alot of damage. Wort and weirding are incredible together and weirding is still a great card by itself.

The problem with that is you're cutting alot of meat for conditionally good cards. How mant matchups do you really need sharpshooter or squad or auntie, etc to win game 1? I think with Wort, and to an extent Weirding, being a big part of the deck, game 1s for Goblins have gotten alot better.

[Tacosnape]

Tacosnape: Why the 4 Tin-Street? What do you really want to blow up all that bad and that often?

Nothing in particular, although it's nice to be able to just obliterate Affinity, smash Jitte to pieces, and cause general havoc/asshattery.

Why I'm a huge fan of him is his curve. He's a 2/1 in the deck's weakest slot, the 2-Curve, as the only other -drop- on the 2-curve is Piledriver. With a Chief out, he's a 2/1 beater for :r:.

Additionally, with 4 Tin-Streets, I don't ever feel like I have to hold one back (Unless I know I'm aiming for something specific.) I just drop them and if there's an artifact target, dandy. If not, I've got a beater and a Gempalm-pumper on the board.


Also, 22 land seems a bit below the standard, especially with 3 colors and 6 non red source, have you found that to be a problem?

Not a huge one. 16 Red sources and a whopping 8 2-drops makes 22 work just fine, especially when factoring in Lackey/Vial/Chief.

[xsockmonkeyx]

How much better is Tin Street #4 than Tinkerer #1?

They are both filling out the 2cc part of the curve and both serve as Gempalm pumpage. Im not sure how big a difference a 1/2 is vs the 2/1 is for everyone else, but in my experience it hasn't been huge. There is the issue of whether you need to kill artifacts right away with Tin Street vs having to wait with Tinkerer. However, there is also the point that tinkerer can kill multiple artifacts, so the issue of how you want to kill artifacts is kind of a grey area. The biggest difference between the two, IMO, is when you have a Warchief out.


Tin-Street Hooligan: Best without a Warchief, but if you have a Chief down, you usually don't need his ability.

Ok, so you usually dont need to kill artifacts with a warchief out, but what happens when you do? Id rather have the option to search up my 1 of Tinkerer in that situation, and I probably be willing to sacrifice whatever drawback Tinkerer poses at other times.

It's similar to the idea of having a Gempalm/Weirding split when dealing with creatures. You sacrifice the risk of one card being inefficient in some situations, in order to have the option available to you in situations where the card shines. If I was willing to devote 4 goblin slots to killing artifacts then I would want to make the most of them.

[Shriekmaw]

If i were to play goblins, it would seem that having sort of a toolbox of creatures to search with ringleader and matron would seem strong. 3c goblins with singletons of weirding, banneret, wort, tin-street, and mad auntie (and maybe earwig squad or sharpshooter) could cause alot of damage. Wort and weirding are incredible together and weirding is still a great card by itself.


I don't understand when people like making decks quite with a lot of 1 ofs, when you have tutors such as ringleader and matron. When you try to do too much with a deck to go away with what the deck does well. You don't want to lose consistency when playing Goblins as its one of its strongest attributes.

The only current 1 ofs that I play is Goblin Sharpshooter, 1 Wort Boggart Auntie and 1 Tin Street Hooligan.

[chmoddity]

I am interested in why there is no discussion at all about cards like Frogtosser Banneret, Mad Auntie, and especially Earwig Squad. There is a lot of talk over at Salvation on this. After reading what Finn and some others had to say, I made a list with Earwigs, Weirdings, and Chrome Moxes. While I have not been to a tournament with it yet, I have had a much easier time beating much of the standard hard matchups in testing. I do think we would need to hammer out some of the details, though. It was complicated trying to figure out how to manage the early turns. A turn two attacking Piledriver alone is now kinda good when you have three mana available. Squad is good with the mox, but not with the Lackey. And does a Warchief make Prowl cheaper?

[Lepp]

I've been doing a lot of testing with black over the last 2 months or so. Here are my thoughts so far:

Wort, Boggart Auntie - I've rarely been able to use her effectively. I think I've used her for a weirding lock once, but even then I think it was just a win more. Usually by the time I drop her, my opponent has enough creature hate ready to take care of her. She is seems to be a priority target for my opponent. I've been running her as a 2 of, and I'm probably dropping her.

Mad Auntie - Better in the mirror than king. Have to have a warchief out to use her. I face a lot of plague hate, and she has been very good to counter plague. In a plague deck, she is a priority target.

Warren Wierding- Sux in the mirror, great early but after multiple creatures are out it becomes very weak.

Earwig Squad- Your 3 turns in and hope you can get a goblin through to use him. Oh ya you can't attack that turn. He has helped some, but also not being able to swing the turn he drops does hurt. Doesn't do well with lackey or vial. He wants to fit in the deck, but doesn't feel like he does.

Boggart Mob - Win more. When I've used him, Siege gang would of done just as good.

So far running black (I use 22 lands, 3 ports, 2 wastes) I have had more than a few games where I just couldn't get the right land down. Running black give the deck a more control fill, but feels like it slows goblins down. I have actually finished on average worse than when i was running mono red. In my opinion, black just gets in the way of being a fast aggro deck and makes the deck more controlish. Goblins hasn't done very well for me in this form.

[Tacosnape]

How much better is Tin Street #4 than Tinkerer #1?

This is really an old debate that hits three points.

Point 1. If Warchief is stopped or not out yet, Tinkerer usually gets killed before he does his job.

Point 2. If Warchief is alive and well, when do you -ever- need to kill an artifact? Pithing Needle is the only thing I can think of that would cause problems.

Point 3. 2/1 is infinitely more aggressive than 1/2. It makes a difference.

For what it's worth, though, I dropped back to three for the fourth Incinerator. (Four was only a metagame call)


Wort, Boggart Auntie - I've rarely been able to use her effectively. I think I've used her for a weirding lock once, but even then I think it was just a win more. Usually by the time I drop her, my opponent has enough creature hate ready to take care of her. She is seems to be a priority target for my opponent. I've been running her as a 2 of, and I'm probably dropping her.

Same conclusion I came to, although she does tend to be a must-remove in certain situations. It's rare I would want to go Matron for her when I could just Matron for a Ringleader and get a guaranteed hand refill, though.


Mad Auntie - Better in the mirror than king. Have to have a warchief out to use her. I face a lot of plague hate, and she has been very good to counter plague. In a plague deck, she is a priority target.

I was also surprised how good Auntie is turning out to be. The regeneration ability is a lot more relevant than I first suspected.


Warren Wierding- Sux in the mirror, great early but after multiple creatures are out it becomes very weak.

It also isn't applying any pressure. I've beaten you in at least two separate games where if your Weirdings were any sort of threat at all I'd have probably lost.


Boggart Mob - Win more. When I've used him, Siege gang would of done just as good.

Agreed. The exception being against Plague/COP: Red. But anything big can usually just be another Siege-Gang Commander, hence why Kiki-Jiki got cut out from most builds.

[b4r0n]

Wort, Boggart Auntie - I've rarely been able to use her effectively. I think I've used her for a weirding lock once, but even then I think it was just a win more. Usually by the time I drop her, my opponent has enough creature hate ready to take care of her. She is seems to be a priority target for my opponent. I've been running her as a 2 of, and I'm probably dropping her.

Wort is definitely slow, but it's ridiculous if it goes unanswered. It's also really good against board sweepers (especially Clasm) and it's solid in the mirror. Fear is also be surprisingly relevant.


Warren Wierding- Sux in the mirror, great early but after multiple creatures are out it becomes very weak.

I've found Weirding to be amazing. It helps let Lackeys connect (which is obviously HUGE), and it deals with Goyfs and Mongeese. I've found this to be more important than strengthening the late game. And while Weirding is definitely terrible the mirror, at least it's not completely dead; you can occasionally target yourself with it and get an extra creature.


So far running black (I use 22 lands, 3 ports, 2 wastes) I have had more than a few games where I just couldn't get the right land down. Running black give the deck a more control fill, but feels like it slows goblins down. I have actually finished on average worse than when i was running mono red. In my opinion, black just gets in the way of being a fast aggro deck and makes the deck more controlish. Goblins hasn't done very well for me in this form.

My manabase is 23 lands, including 4 Wastelands and a basic Swamp. I'd suggest trying that. I haven't had any major problems with the manabase other than randomly drawing the basic Swamp, which sometimes sucks. I'm back and forth on whether I still want it or not.

Running black definitely gives the deck a different feel, but I don't feel like it slows it down significantly. I've found that the additional removal and recursion adds more power to the deck and provides more options, but doesn't interfere with the deck's main gameplan of smashing face with little red men.

[P-AiR]

Here is my deck that I'll be using for a university tournament this friday:
Couldn't find anymore piledrivers and wasn't willing to pay 13 a piece on ebay.

What do you guys think?

Also I know there'll be some sliver, dragon storm, affinity, enchantress decks at the tournament.. I've never played against them with Goblins so I'm not too sure how I'll do against them.. Any advice is much appreciated.

// Lands
9 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Rishadan Port
3x Auntie's Hovel
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Lackey

// Spells
3 Warren Weirding

// Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

[Shriekmaw]

I'm a strong advocate of playing all 8 fetches in Legacy Goblins with a mana base consisting of 23 lands. I wouldn't bother playing lands like Rishadan Port or Auntie's Hovel is Legacy.

I play with the standard goblin package which includes 2 seige-gang's, 1 Wort, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Tin Street with 2 incinerators and 3 wierding for right now.

This configuration has worked very well for me at this point. The sideboard is always a debate topic in Goblins.

This is my current board:

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void

[kabal]

I wouldn't bother playing lands like Rishadan Port or Auntie's Hovel is Legacy.

While I agree that Auntie's Hovel isn't worth playing, but I totally disagree about Port. The mana denial package is still very relevant and can help you win games.

[Shriekmaw]

While I agree that Auntie's Hovel isn't worth playing, but I totally disagree about Port. The mana denial package is still very relevant and can help you win games.


I prefer the color consistency since now I play Warren Weirding main deck. I want consistent black and red mana on the board. Myself and Tenniebopper both agree on this point since Morningtide became legal.

I was a big fan of port before weirding, but now I feel that its too much an inconsistent mana base if you play port.

I would like to know what some of the other goblin players think on this point.

[Osse]

I prefer the color consistency since now I play Warren Weirding main deck. I want consistent black and red mana on the board. Myself and Tenniebopper both agree on this point since Morningtide became legal.

I was a big fan of port before weirding, but now I feel that its too much an inconsistent mana base if you play port.

I would like to know what some of the other goblin players think on this point.

I agree, I'd much rather have color consistency to be able to overwhelm the opponent.

[Bovinious]

Why would you guys play any number of Hovels before 4 Badlands? I dont know if everyone here advocating Hovel is doing this, but thats what the list a few posts above does...and that is just plain wrong. Badlands is STRICTLY better than Hovel. Personally, I dont think Hovel is needed with 8 fetches and up to 4 Badlands, theres always the possibility of someone Wastelanding you out of a game just like we try to do...

[Tacosnape]

Why would you guys play any number of Hovels before 4 Badlands? I dont know if everyone here advocating Hovel is doing this, but thats what the list a few posts above does...and that is just plain wrong. Badlands is STRICTLY better than Hovel. Personally, I dont think Hovel is needed with 8 fetches and up to 4 Badlands, theres always the possibility of someone Wastelanding you out of a game just like we try to do...

The point, I think, was to play Hovel as Badlands 5-8 in place of Wooded Foothills, reducing your dependency on Fetchlands to conserve life and avoid having your face chewed off by Stifle.

[Jak]

The point, I think, was to play Hovel as Badlands 5-8 in place of Wooded Foothills, reducing your dependency on Fetchlands to conserve life and avoid having your face chewed off by Stifle.

But then you'll just get owned by Wasteland. Is saving one life better than being able to fetch basics?

[Tacosnape]

But then you'll just get owned by Wasteland. Is saving one life better than being able to fetch basics?

Probably not, no. I was just merely pointing out to Bovi that Auntie's Hovel wasn't being suggested as a Badlands replacement.

[P-AiR]

Here is my deck that I'll be using for a university tournament this friday:
Couldn't find anymore piledrivers and wasn't willing to pay 13 a piece on ebay.

What do you guys think?

Also I know there'll be some sliver, dragon storm, affinity, enchantress decks at the tournament.. I've never played against them with Goblins so I'm not too sure how I'll do against them.. Any advice is much appreciated.

// Lands
9 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Rishadan Port
3x Auntie's Hovel
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Lackey

// Spells
3 Warren Weirding

// Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Thinking of taking out Wort, Weirding, and tinkerer for 2 tin streets and side board 4 krosan grips.. The problem is I only have 1 taiga and 4 Stomping Grounds.. Unfortunately I only have 3 fetches. Still heavily debating on which route to take since if I do black I'd be sideboarding Cabal therapies/thoughtseize and maybe even extirpate.. With green, I'd board KGrips/Tranquil Domain.

There is a problem with lands
With Black: 3x Auntie Hovels / 2x Badlands
With Green: 4x Stomping Grounds / 1x Taiga

This coming friday's tournament consists of players who run Slivers, Enchantress, Dragon Storm, MUC (w/ Arcane Laboratories/Standstill), Affinity, and Suicide black decks.

Any advice on how to deal with these certain type of decks?

Thanks

[TeenieBopper]

While I agree that Auntie's Hovel isn't worth playing, but I totally disagree about Port. The mana denial package is still very relevant and can help you win games.

If you have to worry about stuff like Humility and Moat (or any other double color hosers in 3+ color decks), then by all means, keep running port. But if you don't, then you're better off utilizing your mana in a way that advances your game plan.

Also, random thought I had the other day- Cutting green, adding Mad Auntie to the board for Plague (god, it hurt just to type that), and adding Blood Moon to the board. Even after the rise of Dragon Stompy and Moon Thresh, 90% of the format totally packs it to a stuck Moon effect. It's easy enough to play a single basic swamp to support Weirding, Auntie, or whatever other black cards you might run (<3 j00, Shriekmaw).

Also, I'm leaning towards cutting Wort due to the Kiki-Jiki factor.

edit: Dragonstorm? Seriously? Can't you just kill them on turn four or something? The only deck in that list I would be scared of is Enchantress. Oh, and Affinity. Fuck that match-up.

[Mental]

You want to run Rbg agains that field. Weirdings will be good against Suicide, Enchantress and Slivers. TSH will be good against Slivers and Affinity

This is the Rbg list that I've been playing, it's fairly standard.

4 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishidan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirdings

EDIT:
I love Wort. If it sticks, you win. IMO Wort >>>>> Kiki Jiki.

[TeenieBopper]

I love Wort. If it sticks, you win. IMO Wort >>>>> Kiki Jiki.

If it sticks, you were going to win anyways.

[Mental]

If it sticks, you were going to win anyways.

Actually, no. Let's say you play the deck well and have held a Wort in your hand all game while they've exhausted themselves vs. all your other stuff. Now you play Wort, and suddenly, you win.
Now let's say that Wort was a Kiki Jiki. Oops. That doesn't help too much. Now you have to rely on a topdeck to win.
I'm not saying Wort is better than Ringleader or anything, I'm just saying it's better than Kiki-Jiki/More SGC/More Gempalms, etc.

[P-AiR]

Warren Weirding is just that much better than Gempalm? I haven't even play tested my deck yet so I have no idea.

[Mental]

Warren Weirding is just that much better than Gempalm? I haven't even play tested my deck yet so I have no idea.

Yes, it is. It has a much better chance of getting Lackey to connect T1, and is just in general less situational.

[TeenieBopper]

You're not getting the comparison. They're similar in that they're win-more cards.

If you can get Kiki going, you were going to win anyways. If you can get Wort recursion going, you were also going to win anyways.

I've never once tutored for Wort, and if I have a choice between playing her or Ringleader/SGC (or even Matron to get Ringleader/SGC), I play the latter.

edit:

Warren Weirding is just that much better than Gempalm? I haven't even play tested my deck yet so I have no idea.

God yes. Weirding kills turn one Mongoose and turn two 'goyfs. Also, you know how hard it is to Gempalm out a 4/5 or 5/6 'goyf when you absolutely have to? Really, really hard.

[Mental]

You're not getting the comparison. They're similar in that they're win-more cards.

If you can get Kiki going, you were going to win anyways. If you can get Wort recursion going, you were also going to win anyways.

I've never once tutored for Wort, and if I have a choice between playing her or Ringleader/SGC (or even Matron to get Ringleader/SGC), I play the latter.
Even in the late game, when your graveyard is filled with cards like Ringleader? For instance, vs. UBG Landstill - Ringleader or Wort? I'd take Wort nearly 100% of the time. They have no way of removing him except for Deed, and that's slow and clunky. The same applies with UBGw, as you can usually shut down their White Mana, and against UBG Threshold, it seems to me.

[TeenieBopper]

UBG landstill? You got me. The one deck in the format that doesn't have an instant speed, cheap ass way to deal with Wort.

And you know what? Yeah, I'd still take Ringleader over Wort, because it's pretty much guaranteed to get me card advantage right now when I need it, not maybe, possibly next turn when it might be too late.

[P-AiR]

I like both Kiki and Wort, they're both very situational.. There are many situations where both could flourish where the other cannot.

I only choose Wort since I have no creatures at the 4 mana cost slot.

Is it a bad idea to sideboard cabal therapies AND krosan grips? I just don't want to get away from playing goblins and playing too much control out of a sideboard sub.

It's a shame my sideboard is very weak after those two cards..
I have one tormod's crypt against threshold, 1x pyrokinesis, 2x anarchy, 2x pulverize, 4x Red Elemental Blast.. 1x Siege-Gang, 1x Tranquil Domain..

I don't have any spare Chalice of the Void, Leylines, or Pithing Needles.

So you feel it's enough creature control with
the weirdings/Incinerator/Fanatic?

[TeenieBopper]

I like both Kiki and Wort, they're both very situational.. There are many situations where both could flourish where the other cannot.

I only choose Wort since I have no creatures at the 4 mana cost slot.

Is it a bad idea to sideboard cabal therapies AND krosan grips? I just don't want to get away from playing goblins and playing too much control out of a sideboard sub.


The kiki thing was for Mental.

Ringleader costs four. Your four drop slot is fine, with or without Wort.

I can't think of a match-up where you'd be bringing in both Grip and Therapy. It's been my experience that Therapy is only really good in the Combo match-up.

Weirding/Gempalm/Fanatic(Sharpshooter) is probably enough removal. Though I do currently have a raging hard-on for Shriekmaw.

[puddn]

i think if you want to play Hovel, it would be in place of fetchland not port rishadan

Why do you talk again about kiki? i believed you knew that it's a win more card, not necessary. And you can't compare kiki with wort... but you can see that wort gives you a late game plan, not kiki... alone, wort is a 3/3 fear for 4 and kiki a 2/2 for 5...

[P-AiR]

Well this is my decklist after much consideration of which color to splash.. I decided to follow what most people suggested.. tri-coloring even though I do lack some duals/fetches..

// Lands
6 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Rishadan Port
3x Auntie's Hovel
3x Stomping Grounds
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin-street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Lackey

// Spells
3 Warren Weirding

// Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

//Sideboard
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Krosan Grip
1x Siege-Gang

Would anyone put a 3rd siege-gang in, in place of a sharpshooter?
Against control decks I'd feel obliged to sub in both cabal therapy and krosan grip.. That's what I fear, not drawing enough goblins and slowing myself down because I'm subbing both those cards in.

[Tacosnape]

i think if you want to play Hovel, it would be in place of fetchland not port rishadan

Why do you talk again about kiki? i believed you knew that it's a win more card, not necessary. And you can't compare kiki with wort... but you can see that wort gives you a late game plan, not kiki... alone, wort is a 3/3 fear for 4 and kiki a 2/2 for 5...

TB's right, though. It's the same principle. Why aren't they all just Siege-Gang Commanders? Why would you tutor for/dig up a Wort and have a chance at card advantage if your opponent has no removal when you could tutor for/dig up a Ringleader and get the card advantage regardless of whether they have removal or not? Is there really any function for Higher CMC cards that Ringleader and Siege-Gang don't fulfill?

EDIT: Also, with Warren Weirding increasing Lackey connection percentages, I have a hard time not wanting to increase my Siege-Gang Commander count to at least 3. Lackey into SGC on turn two is still ridiculous.


Weirding/Gempalm/Fanatic(Sharpshooter) is probably enough removal. Though I do currently have a raging hard-on for Shriekmaw.

Something about evoke must just get your jibblies janglin'. Shriekmaw's kinda neat, but is it really worth slots here?

[TeenieBopper]

EDIT: Also, with Warren Weirding increasing Lackey connection percentages, I have a hard time not wanting to increase my Siege-Gang Commander count to at least 3. Lackey into SGC on turn two is still ridiculous.

This is why I'm cutting Wort for the third SGC. Back when I was only running one Piledriver (yes, I'm back up to four), I was running the third Siege Gang, and it was awesome. Man, if I could justify running four, I would.




Something about evoke must just get your jibblies janglin'. Shriekmaw's kinda neat, but is it really worth slots here?

The evoke is cute and all, but I really like the 3/2 evasion dude that comes with 187'ing some big fatty. I also love setting Vial to five, activating, killing a (stupid fucking) Tarmogoyf and then blocking a Mongoose. That's what really gets my jibblies janglin'. I know it's not totally necessary, which is why I've been slowly cutting him from the board. I'm down to two right now.

[Nihil Credo]

One difference between Kiki/Mob/etc. and Wort is that no more than three 5cc Goblins are usually run, because it would hurt the curve too much, so SGC easily takes all those spots. But Goblin has always run 4 Ringleaders, and until now there have been no other significant options for the 4cc slot. So it's entirely possible that a fifth 4-coster (i.e. Wort) fits in the deck.

There are also a few scenarios where Wort pulls you out of the gutter while Ringleader does little or nothing. Fanatic recursion saves your ass against Ichorid (eat two of the fuckers and all Bridges each turn) and will nullify a Jitte that you can't Hooligan (either because you have a Warchief out or because you lack green). Incinerator recursion is pretty absurd in the mirror (where the 3/3 body also helps), and prevents Crucible/Factory from being an Abyss. And against decks which rely on black-based removal, Wort, being unkillable, will draw you more cards than Ringleader.

[Media314r8]

I don't personally splash green, but this guy caught my attention.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68569&d=1207024035

I currently only have 1 driver MD, but I'm thinking this guy could possibly bring goblins back to it's aggro roots. Thoughts?

EDIT: aww damnit. Reading cards is tech.. only BLOCKED guys get +1/+0 and trample. I thought it was an overrun on a stick. Tears, cant it just be rare and be good???

Mods, feel free to delete this post, as it is likely irrel. I will now hang my head in shame and go back to playing Rb goblins.

[Media314r8]

This guy seems good:
--------------------------------
Vexing Shusher
{rg}{rg}
Creature - Goblin Shaman Rare

Vexing Shusher can't be countered by spells or abilities.
{rg}: Target spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

2/2
--------------------------------

He's got a decent body, and is probably the best 2 CMC goblin for helping you win if you're not already winning. His ability is pretty narrow, but in my experience, control decks will often not counter matron, instead opting to counter what you get. He could be a one-of (SB) to help you resolve wierdings against counter-top decks, and SGCs against Moat decks. (here I suppose he serves the same purpose as K Grip, but hes a goblin and tutorable)

I like him, and If he is printed as-is, I may consider running the light splash for him and tin street in the board.

EDIT: O shit! As they uses the symbol abbreviations, his ability can be payed for with either R OR G, not R AND G as I originally thought! Thank you jeebus! I don't even NEED to splash green if this is spoiled correctly!

[Tacosnape]

Shusher might be pretty badass, no question.

At some point, though, it needs to be kept in perspective that Goblins is already one of the best decks ever at dodging counters via Aether Vial. However, this guy would definitely shine in certain matchups.

[bladewing019]

With Vial, Lackey, and the spread out mana curve I don't think Goblins needs another way around counters. Focusing on other MUs is probably a better use of your SB slots because I can't think of anything you would want to run it over in the MD.

[insertnamehere]

With Vial, Lackey, and the spread out mana curve I don't think Goblins needs another way around counters. Focusing on other MUs is probably a better use of your SB slots because I can't think of anything you would want to run it over in the MD.

It definetly warrents playtesting.

[bladewing019]

It definetly warrents playtesting.

In what slot would you test it in? What would it be better than the majority of the time? I don't think it really works as a one of, because you want it out before the opponent can set up a counter wall.

[chokin]

Shusher looks really hot. I'd love this as a 1-of. Matron immediately becomes a "must counter" spell, taking some heat off of your other spells in the process. Sometimes I have troubles dealing with CB @ 2 against Thresh. Sometimes you just need to resolve a Weirding. IMO, Shusher is better than Pyro and REB for answering to counters once you get him. I guess the issue is getting him though.

I dunno. I think this card is hot. I might pick it up regardless of what everyone else does.

[from Cairo]

And what if Threshold already has the Counterbalance out? How're you going to resolve this guy if you can't resolve Weirding? Aether Vial? If your Vial is active, you aren't in terrible shape to begin with.

Vexing Shusher can't be countered by spells or abilities.

[Tacosnape]

Vexing Shusher can't be countered by spells or abilities.

Right. I knew that. Must learn to read.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Vialing in a Shusher in response to something sounds pretty fun. But do you ever have real issues with countermagic at that point in the game? If they had Forces they would have pitched them already to get Lackey/Vial, and the Shusher doesnt do much against Daze. Goblins doesn't really have issues with Counterbalance either, Ringleader will probably get through. I guess he helps force through Weirding with an active counterbalance in play, buts thats about it.

[GreenOne]

He's also a 2/2 body for 2 mana. I'd play it in some of the Piledriver's slot.

[Tacosnape]

I might very well board him. I'm not really going to want him all that often, but I might want him often enough to be card #4 beyond Pyrokinesis/Graveyard Hate/Enchantment Removal. I could see him helping against Landstill and Threshold - Decks which like to counter Matron and Ringleader to keep me from having card advantage. As for dealing with Chalice of the Void, he might be okay here even with Tin-Street Hooligan. Playing him through a Chal-2 then playing the Hooligan would be kinda sick.

[T is for TOOL]

As for dealing with Chalice of the Void, he might be okay here even with Tin-Street Hooligan. Playing him through a Chal-2 then playing the Hooligan would be kinda sick. Goblins will always see the first Chalice come down for 1 because they can easily play through a Chalice at 2. If a Chalice at 2 does end up on the table, usually the game winner is already clear.

[Tacosnape]

Goblins will always see the first Chalice come down for 1 because they can easily play through a Chalice at 2. If a Chalice at 2 does end up on the table, usually the game winner is already clear.

Not necessarily. I've been in matches with both Stax and Dragon Stompy where they went turn one Chal-1, turn two Chal-2, and then only had weak or moderate lock/threat capacity to backup to it, leaving the game pretty close. Shusher might make a difference here.

[raharu]

Playing it through chalice @ 1 and resolving a Vial is fairly sexy, no? I think it's at the very least up for serious (prolly SB) consideration.

[Joe_C]

[QUOTE=Tacosnape;218663]

EDIT: Also, with Warren Weirding increasing Lackey connection percentages, I have a hard time not wanting to increase my Siege-Gang Commander count to at least 3. Lackey into SGC on turn two is still ridiculous.



QUOTE]

how does weirding increase the landing percentage of lackey?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

how does weirding increase the landing percentage of lackey?It's removal that can clear the opposing board, paving the path for Lackey slightly better then Incenerator. Turn one, Lackey followed with turn two Wierding means that Lackey will hit.

[Joe_C]

that still does not do anything to aid lackey. you just gave them 2 blockers with weirding. I would say that it sets you back a turn

[Sanguine Voyeur]

that still does not do anything to aid lackey. you just gave them 2 blockers with weirding. I would say that it sets you back a turnThat's only in the mirror, which is exceptional in most cases. They help Lackey connect in almost every other situation, even against a Mongoose.

[insertnamehere]

how does weirding increase the landing percentage of lackey?

Weirding sucks.....against mirror. Against everything else, it is the key card missing from Goblins since it's onset. Most decks IMO do not have answers for Lackey T1 with the exception of Elves maybe or B.O.P.s If your opponent is on the draw you need to consider playing a little different if you opponent can get 1 or 2 creatures out before you can get the summoning sickness out of your lackey.

[Joe_C]

Ive only been playing goblins for a little while. I played at the last mana clash and took 2nd with r/g goblins. I see black being a good addition to goblins. But is it really necessary? I had no real problems dealing with threshold last time I played it, and isnt this the deck that we are worried about if our "best" card from the new set is weirding? Green gives us the best answer for the best hate card we can see(e.plague) in krosan grip. Is straight r/g just worse than the black slash? Im just curious to hear what more seasoned goblin players think about that

[insertnamehere]

Ive only been playing goblins for a little while. I played at the last mana clash and took 2nd with r/g goblins. I see black being a good addition to goblins. But is it really necessary? I had no real problems dealing with threshold last time I played it, and isnt this the deck that we are worried about if our "best" card from the new set is weirding? Green gives us the best answer for the best hate card we can see(e.plague) in krosan grip. Is straight r/g just worse than the black slash? Im just curious to hear what more seasoned goblin players think about that

IMO the best improvements for splashing black is:
Warren Wierding
Mad Auntie
Wort
Earwig Squad

Those are the key reasons I am currently running black in my version.

[Shriekmaw]

Ive only been playing goblins for a little while. I played at the last mana clash and took 2nd with r/g goblins. I see black being a good addition to goblins. But is it really necessary? I had no real problems dealing with threshold last time I played it, and isnt this the deck that we are worried about if our "best" card from the new set is weirding? Green gives us the best answer for the best hate card we can see(e.plague) in krosan grip. Is straight r/g just worse than the black slash? Im just curious to hear what more seasoned goblin players think about that


I would say that its almost necessary to play Black in Goblins today. I prefer splashing both Green and Black because of the versatility it gives you against a lot of decks. Currently the Green splash is for MD Hooligan, SB Explosives and Krosan Grip.

Threshold is a problem matchup b/c if they get a quick Tarmogoyf or two, it is very hard to win. Warren Weirding fixes that problem as an answer to a lot of creatures, but mostly tarmogoyf. It even gives you a good answer to turn 1 mongoose if you go first and have a lackey in play.

Tenniebopper and myself have played Goblins the most in this area and we came to a pretty good consensus on what works and what doesn't in the deck.

[Tacosnape]

It even gives you a good answer to turn 1 mongoose if you go first and have a lackey in play.

Last I checked, "Swing for 1" worked, too. Sure, you lose your Lackey, but you get a clear board with which to play more Lackeys/Vials/Other Goblins/Whatever. Warren Weirding on turn two tends to walk into Daze a lot, too.

I don't think black is necessary to play Goblins. I do agree it's strong. But Black sucks in the mirror. Black (ironically) sometimes sucks against some combo due to Warren Weirding being almost a dead maindeck card, Black isn't that strong against control sans possibly Earwig Squad, and Black is bad at dealing with hate.

At the same time, Black is fantastic against things like Threshold, and Warren Weirding is awesome at dismantling the 3000 random other decks that pack Tarmogoyf.

[chokin]

Last I checked, "Swing for 1" worked, too. Sure, you lose your Lackey, but you get a clear board with which to play more Lackeys/Vials/Other Goblins/Whatever. Warren Weirding on turn two tends to walk into Daze a lot, too.

I don't think black is necessary to play Goblins. I do agree it's strong. But Black sucks in the mirror. Black (ironically) sometimes sucks against some combo due to Warren Weirding being almost a dead maindeck card, Black isn't that strong against control sans possibly Earwig Squad, and Black is bad at dealing with hate.

At the same time, Black is fantastic against things like Threshold, and Warren Weirding is awesome at dismantling the 3000 random other decks that pack Tarmogoyf.

I remember once having a hand of 3 Lackey, 2 Mountain, a Ringleader, and a Seige Gang. I kept this against Thresh and did the whole "swing for 1" into his Goose followed by 2 Lackeys. I think he cried a little when I got both my Ringleader and SGC in play on turn 3, and swung for 11(played a Warchief) on turn 4. But yeah, there's nothing wrong with trading a Lackey for a Goose.

CB+Top in Thresh has been an issue for me when playing Goblins because sometimes I really need to resolve a Weirding to get rid of that pesky Goyf. I really only run green in my deck for Grips and a Hooligan(sometimes), but do you think with Shusher, green can go? Shusher says "Screw you counterbalance" and turns every counter into a quasi Daze(but pay :rg: instead of :1: ) I'm sure Grip has other uses, but where I'm at, CB is the only real reason to run green at all right now.

[kabal]

Threshold is a problem matchup b/c if they get a quick Tarmogoyf or two, it is very hard to win. Warren Weirding fixes that problem as an answer to a lot of creatures, but mostly tarmogoyf.


What about Crib Swap (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/11.html)? It handles Goyf and still works even if they have > 1 creature on the board. Being Tribal it has the same advantages as Weirding. Swap is an instant, but does cost one one. If you stick with white, you get the advantages you had playing green, IE: artifact and enchantment removal in the form of Disenchant , Leave No Trace and Demystify. And now you can stick with splashing 1 color, ensuring you are less vulnerable to wasteland



It even gives you a good answer to turn 1 mongoose if you go first and have a lackey in play.


Assuming they don't counter it with daze or spell snare or FoW.

[T is for TOOL]

Not necessarily. I've been in matches with both Stax and Dragon Stompy where they went turn one Chal-1, turn two Chal-2, and then only had weak or moderate lock/threat capacity to backup to it, leaving the game pretty close. Shusher might make a difference here. That situation isn't a common occurance, and even if it was, turn two Shusher still wouldn't be a sick play.


Playing it through chalice @ 1 and resolving a Vial is fairly sexy, no? I think it's at the very least up for serious (prolly SB) consideration.Playing Tin-Street through a chalice @ 1 and resolving a Vial is fairly sexier, no?


Warren Weirding on turn two tends to walk into Daze a lot, too.What's your point?


I don't think black is necessary to play Goblins. I do agree it's strong. But Black sucks in the mirror. Both goblin decks will be splashing black in the mirror anyway while the versions without black are busy losing to Threshold.


Black (ironically) sometimes sucks against some combo due to Warren Weirding being almost a dead maindeck card
Goblins loses to combo. Get over it. Choosing whether or not to splash black against combo is like choosing whether or not to poke out a blind man's eyeballs.


Black isn't that strong against control sans possibly Earwig Squad, and Black is bad at dealing with hate.
Try Thoughtseize.

[kabal]

Shadowmoor Spoiler:

Bloodmark Mentor - 1r (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2372)
Creature - Goblin Warrior
Red creatures you control have first strike.
1/1

Thoughts?

As first glance, seems like this would make a good additional. The ability to prevent your horde from being whittled away. Also, Piledriver becomes quite the force when your opponent only has a goyf and mongoose on the opposing side.

[Lepp]

Shadowmoor Spoiler:

Bloodmark Mentor - 1r (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2372)
Creature - Goblin Warrior
Red creatures you control have first strike.
1/1

Thoughts?

As first glance, seems like this would make a good additional. The ability to prevent your horde from being whittled away. Also, Piledriver becomes quite the force when your opponent only has a goyf and mongoose on the opposing side.

Hmm definately worth testing. A fs piledriver tweaks my curiosity a lot.

[Nihil Credo]

First strike is a terrible ability on any of your creatures except for big Piledrivers. This guy is incredibly worse than Frogtosser Banneret, which is on the edge of playability itself.

[FredMaster]

I agree.
Playing him would be another approach to the Casual Sliver deck, running each cool card that might get your green dudes look sweeter.
But in this case it isn't even the danger of cool things, as Mentor doesn't look very cool to me.
Like, yay I have about 3 1/1 First Strikers that can handle....uhm.... uhm.... nothing, that 1/1 Critters couldn't.

Banneret sucks terribly as well btw.

[calosso]

They first strike guy can help against a swarm of empty the warren tokens. Also if you lackey on turn 1, then the thresh player plays goose, then you play him on turn 2. You just killed a goose. True it is best case scenario but it is still a possibility.

[FredMaster]

Don't you think, it'll get dazed then? Also the Thresh Player may still block it, and handle Lackey Turn 2 via target random spotremoval.

[EternalDragon09]

Yeah i agree the first strike guy seems good at first maybe side board against random aggro decks mirror match but he just seems sub par being he is a 1/1 and doesnt gain u much or any advantage at all.

[FredMaster]

I still don't know about how that card may look good to you without consuming heroin.

My list after Shadowmoor will look like this:
// Lands
2 [B] Taiga
4 [B] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
5 [UNH] Mountain
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
4 [FNM] Mogg Fanatic
2 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [FNM] Goblin Ringleader
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
1 [REL] Earwig Squad
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [10E] Goblin King

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [REL] Earwig Squad
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [SHA] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon

Comments? (Please don't start this retarded Piledriver discussion again, that guy needs to be at least 4 times in a Goblin deck.)

[Lepp]

On first look I bit and liked the first strike guy, second look nah.

How effective has pyromancer been for you?

On decks full of plague hate, what do you usually board in and out?

Can you post what the vexing shusher is? I haven't seen it. (edit he is the red/green counter killer guy)

[FredMaster]

Well what do I board out against decks with Plague?
Depends... all kind of decks run them. Like Rocks or Landstill is serious difference as you might know.
Against 4c Landstill for example, the most important things are:
- Blood Moon
- Shusher
- Grip
- Squad

Pretty much :/

I guess i'll take out a Playset of Weirdings for 3 Shusher and 1 Moon.
Then 1 Commander and 1 Mancer for 2 additional Moons. Then 3 Mogg Fanatics for 3 Grips and sideboarding is done.

That'll be the most important things.

Against Rock we need:
- Grip
- Squad (maybe)

Out:
- Fanatic-> probably all of them, but it really depends on their builds, because as we all know the Rock Archetype is almost as versatile as a deck called Landstill.

And Pyromancer wins games. End of the story.

[Baumeister]

@ Fredmaster: Why Goblin King and not Mad Auntie? I might just be ignorant here, but the Auntie seems better as you can regenerate guys. Plus it's easier to cast? Set me straight here, I just picked up this deck.

[Shriekmaw]

I still don't know about how that card may look good to you without consuming heroin.

My list after Shadowmoor will look like this:
// Lands
2 [B] Taiga
4 [B] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
5 [UNH] Mountain
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
4 [FNM] Mogg Fanatic
2 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [FNM] Goblin Ringleader
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
1 [REL] Earwig Squad
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [10E] Goblin King

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [REL] Earwig Squad
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [SHA] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon

Comments? (Please don't start this retarded Piledriver discussion again, that guy needs to be at least 4 times in a Goblin deck.)


The number 1 thing I saw is the land base at 21. I believe this should be 23 lands because this is a very mana hungry deck regardless of what you might think.

I don't have too many problems with the rest of it. I would cut pyromancer b/c its just not that good. I would really like to see the 2nd seige-gang commander in there. I would also like to see the 2nd incinerator in there.

Here is my most recent list if you don't want to bother to look for it in this thread.

R/b/g Vial Goblins

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Weirding
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan

SB

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered Explosives

[FredMaster]

@ Fredmaster: Why Goblin King and not Mad Auntie? I might just be ignorant here, but the Auntie seems better as you can regenerate guys. Plus it's easier to cast?
Well nr. 1: it's not easier to cast if your opponent annoys you with wastelands and keeps you away from black mana.
Additionally it is a better silverbullet in certain situation, if you consider the Moonwalk ability. Since more and more decks play the Moon (just like us btw) the Goblin King is better.

@ Nickrit:
Warren Weirding is so much better than the Incinerator at the moment.
The 4/1 split seem rly good.
And 21 lands without ports are enough, from what i've seen in testing so far.
And why did you play 3 Piledrivers again?
The Sharpshooter is pretty much of a meta choice I guess.
What else... Tin Street Holigan is bad - argument were mentioned several times before in this thread.
Imo Thorn is a better Sideboard choice against Combo, since it really keeps them from going into the Combo. While Thorn is online, they just can't. With Chalice @ 0 it is still possible tho.

[Vimes]

Something you guys might be interested in from Shadowmoor:

Tattermunge Maniac {R/G}

Goblin Warrior
Attacks each turn if able

2/1

While it might be a little more aggressive than Vial Goblins usually is, it's a 2/1. For R. And it's a goblin.

[FredMaster]

Yeah, then we could also run Raging Goblin!! :rolleyes:


Seriously, that guy just sucks because of:
a) his lack of P/T as he is worse than a 1/1 Vanilla Goblin
b) "attacks each turn if able" is terrible in times of Tarmogoyf

And in place of what would you play him?

[Bane of the Living]

Tattermunge Liege*

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manarg.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manarg.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manarg.gif Creature - Goblin Knighthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-rare.gifTrample
Other red creatures you control get +1/+1.
Other green creatures you control get +1/+1.
3/4
This looks like the format buster goblins wanted.

1) Beat Engineered Plague. Help your other gobs beat plague.

2) Can't be hit by Smother (E Plague friend).

3) Hard to Counterbalace, usually.

4) Out of Trinisphere + Chalice range and easily cast under Moon. Gets your guys out of Pyrokinesis and Pyroclasm range.

5) Makes your gobs bigger in the mirror.

6) Makes your goyfs bigger..

Id run at least one copy. Go Shadowmoor and its green gobs!

[ebbitten]

interesting, although would you really need to play goyfs and this guy?

[kabal]

Boggart Ramraiders (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2410) {rg}{rg}{rg}
Creature - Goblin Warrior (U)
Haste
Wither (This deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters)
3/3

Gets around Counterbalance (for the most part).
Shrinks Goyf permanently
Kills Mongoose
Dodges Engineering Plague

[ebbitten]

this has to be overkill/danger of cool things but wouldn't the wither guy+ the first strike guy be absolutely nuts?

[b4r0n]

Boggart Ramraiders (http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2410) {rg}{rg}{rg}
Creature - Goblin Warrior (U)
Haste
Wither (This deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters)
3/3

Gets around Counterbalance (for the most part).
Shrinks Goyf permanently
Kills Mongoose
Dodges Engineering Plague

While it's certainly a solid card, I think the biggest problem is that it costs 3, which is already a pretty tight spot on the curve (Warchief, Matron, Sharpshooter, etc.). Additionally, triple colored mana means it will never be reduced in cost by Warchief, and it will occasionally be uncastable due to Wasteland being an essential part of the manabase. So I don't really see it making it's way into the deck.

[raharu]

While it's certainly a solid card, I think the biggest problem is that it costs 3, which is already a pretty tight spot on the curve (Warchief, Matron, Sharpshooter, etc.). Additionally, triple colored mana means it will never be reduced in cost by Warchief, and it will occasionally be uncastable due to Wasteland being an essential part of the manabase. So I don't really see it making it's way into the deck.
Sharpshooter is 4cc and isn't always run. No cost reduction from Warchief isn't really that big of a deal, and with 23 lands I don't think that colorless off of the Wastelands is going to matter as much as you make it seem. It's a really solid card against thresh, agro, and agro-control in general, and warrants some further investigation.

Oh yeah, and Tattermunge Liege... 0_0. Oh laurd. Possibly a two or three of?

[kicks_422]

Sharpshooter is 3cc. Ramraiders really just doesn't fit in the already crowded 3cc slot. What do you propose to cut for it? As for Tattermunge... No. Just no.

I still think that the greatest boon the deck could get would be a solid 2-drop for 1R behind Piledriver. Hooligan is good, but not really game-breaking. Shusher is a bit too narrow, maybe SB material? Probably a Goblin which doubles as removal (with a body, so no Weirding wise-cracks). Maybe a Smother-Goblin?

[Paper Devil]

What do you want to cut for the new goblins? There is no card you want to cut for them.

[StarHawk]

I have been reading this thread for a while now and I built r/g/b vial I was wondering what it needs or not need to be a competive build. I tried to build heavily off of teenie booppers.

Maindeck
5cc
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4cc
4 Goblin Ringleader
3cc
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Gempalm Incinerators
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2cc
4 Warren Weirdling
4 Goblin Piledriver
1cc
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
Lands
1 Swamp
2 Wooded foothills
3 Taigas
4 Mountains
4 Badland
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard
4cc
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
3cc
3 Krosan Grips
1cc
4 Cabal Therapy
0cc
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt

[Mental]

You should cut an Incinerator from the MB and play a Wort. 3 Incinerator + 4 Weirdings is likely too much removal, and Wort wins the game if not dealt with.

[BKclassic]

I think that 4 Weirding + 3 Gempalm + 1 Sharpshooter would be too much removal, it leads to too many unaggressive hands. I would play 4-5 creature removal cards and 3-4 Tin Street Hooligans. Tin Streets fill a great triple role of being aggressive, being useful removal, and help flesh out the 2cc slot. I would probably run 1 Weirding, 3 Gempalms, 3 Tin Streets, and Sharpshooter MD, and SB the rest of Weirdings.

[Mental]

I think that 4 Weirding + 3 Gempalm + 1 Sharpshooter would be too much removal, it leads to too many unaggressive hands. I would play 4-5 creature removal cards and 3-4 Tin Street Hooligans. Tin Streets fill a great triple role of being aggressive, being useful removal, and help flesh out the 2cc slot. I would probably run 1 Weirding, 3 Gempalms, 3 Tin Streets, and Sharpshooter MD, and SB the rest of Weirdings.

One Weirdings? That seems wrong in any slightly normal meta.

Here's my list, which is pretty normal Rbg Goblins:

3 Mire
3 Foothills
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Port

4 Lackey
4 Warcheif
4 Fanatic
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
4 Piledriver
2 Incinerator
2 SGC
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Hooligan

4 Vial
4 Weirdings

SB
4 Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon

That's what I would call the "normal" Rbg build.

[StarHawk]

You should cut an Incinerator from the MB and play a Wort. 3 Incinerator + 4 Weirdings is likely too much removal, and Wort wins the game if not dealt with.I think I will cut an incinerator for a wort thanks

[Drac]

Me and my friends have been working on a Blue Red Vial build.
The build includes Daze and Pestermite.
Although you run 12 non goblin cards in this version ringleader statisticly almost gets you 2 cards and if you have fetched some that increases abit.
you can get totally broken plays with Daze on the play. like Fetch>volcanic>lackey. then Daze whatever they do to stop it and connect.
Obviously we play Pestermite to be able to combo with Kiki-Jikki.
We have found that playing pestermite without kiki-jikki on the table is a very usefull. It can tap those annoying tarmogoyfs and it can fly. can also be used to untap vials and other fun plays. Also blue gives interesting SB options in the form of stifle. vs some decks stifle can come in instead of pestermite to totally mess with your opponents land. and vs combo its just very good.

Anyway i am posting this here because i want to hear your thoughts on goblins with a blue splash. Please enlighten me.

[Marco]

Can we see a deck list? I'm considering R/u Goblins (with Pestermite and Kiki-Jiki) for Extended post-rotation. I definitely think it has potential.

[Drac]

My friend is a much better goblin player then i am, and this was just a list i trew together for some playtesting. but ill share it with you non the less.

Land (20)

4 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

Non Goblins (12)

4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Pestermite

Goblins (28)

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Tarfire
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Kiki-Jikki Mirrorbreaker
1 Siege Gang Commander


SB(15)
4 Thorn of Amythyst
4 Stifle
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon


As you can obviously see this build doesnt have fanatics in them. Also SB is abit random. but please
/discuss

[puddn]

imho, you should cut sharpshooter (which is a metagame's call) for Wort, mad auntie
3 gempalm + 4 weirding is a good ratio, i play 4 gempalm + 2 weirding but i'm thinking about playing the 3rd

[Mental]

There was an RU goblins list running around a little while ago. It had a very good MU against combo and the mirror, but was crushed by Thresh, so was scrapped. The list ran 15 Blue cards - 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Brainstorm and 3 Stifle.

[Benny]

Why would you ever run pestermite in goblins?
it's not even a goblin.. such a bad idea!

I would currently run this build ( it would obv lose the mirror, but nobody plays goblins here..) This build should rather win from decks like *****, loam...

Comments ?

4 Æther Vial
1 Mad Auntie
4 Warren Weirding
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan


Lands (23):
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
2 Rishadan Port
1 Swamp
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

1 explosives
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 thorn
2 Pyrokinesis

[thefreakaccident]

Blue in goblins was an old idea made by the Faerie godfather... He ran standstill, and I think he ran stifle... but that was it, I am pretty sure...

Here is a rough list (with black):

lands//22
2 rishidan port
4 wasteland
4 volcanic island
3 badlands
4 wooded foothills
2 mountain
3 bloodstained mire

spells//11
4 standstill (great here)
3 warren weirding
4 Aether Vial

creatures//27
4 goblin warcheif
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin piledriver
4 goblin matron
2 seige-gang commander
2 wort, boggart auntie
2 goblin incinerator
1 mad auntie


sideboard//
4 stifle
4 echoing truth (just good)
7 other slots

[rodgon666]

Finally ! someone has the mind to put standstill in goblins!!!

vial standstill!! GG! ( a little exageration but hahaha)

it is good.

[Eldariel]

The old Goblin Fish-thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5551) discusses the concept in some length but overall, since I didn't have the energy to pursue the deck, the development sort of just died. The present version isn't obviously as good as it could be due to environment and the overall lack of number crunching, but it worked passably, so if someone is interested in further pursuing that path, feel free.

I didn't find Standstill really necessary, since oft-times it was a winmore and occasionally uncastable. The deck doesn't really run too much removal so it relies on outgunning the opponent on the ground, or having an active Vial. But I'd rather not clog this thread up with further discussion on that particular build.


Classic Ru Goblins isn't a horrible idea; Daze or Stifle MD could be a royal PiTA for many opponents and it offers some interesting sideboard alternatives. Overall though, right now I think black offers sufficient options at combo-hate if you want to MD some, and due to Weirdings et co. is the natural supplement, along with maybe green for arti/enc hate.

[Nydaeli]

If you're going to try to make GobStill work, you need to run 4 Mutavault. It combos with Standstill and with the usual assortment of Goblin trickery.

[Tacosnape]

If you're going to try to make GobStill work, you need to run 4 Mutavault. It combos with Standstill and with the usual assortment of Goblin trickery.

It comboes with Piledriver and Incinerator, and to a slight degree, Siege-Gang Commander. Matron, Ringleader, Wort, and Lackey don't recognize it for anything relevant.

[Nightmare]

It comboes with Piledriver and Incinerator, and to a slight degree, Siege-Gang Commander. Matron, Ringleader, Wort, and Lackey don't recognize it for anything relevant.
Given that it's an attempt at making GobStill, and that it combines with your primary draw engine* as well as half of your best team members, I fail to see the problem.

*- Standstill is potentially better than Ringleader in this deck. In fact, you should consider cutting it if you move too far away from the Gobs and closer to the fish.

[Tacosnape]

Given that it's an attempt at making GobStill, and that it combines with your primary draw engine* as well as half of your best team members, I fail to see the problem.

*- Standstill is potentially better than Ringleader in this deck. In fact, you should consider cutting it if you move too far away from the Gobs and closer to the fish.

While there's no specific problem with Mutavault/Standstill and I was just making a point, the problem lies in the deck itself.

The problem is that Goblin Fish is a bad deck and UR Vial Goblins doesn't solve any problem that other colors can't solve better. Once you start looking at Daze, Stifle, and Standstill, then your Goblins are pretty much becoming a liability because they could be other cards that are far more effective against a broader base of decks. Slightly better combo deck for Goblins? Maybe, if you can afford to keep mana open for that Stifle somehow. With that said, Blue's not answering Plague, or Tarmogoyf, or any of the other six hundred problems that wreck the deck.

And Standstill for additional draw? Big deal. Card advantage has never been a problem for Goblins. The problem is that card for card, Goblins runs weaker cards than any deck in the format, so the ridiculous amount of cards it generates are somewhat kept in check by the fact that it's in essence a pile of guys who are 2/2 or smaller, do neat shit, and synergize well with each other if there's enough of them to go around.

So drawing three cards off Standstill in a deck like Vial Goblins isn't as big of a deal as drawing three cards off Standstill would be in a deck that ran higher quality cards.

This is about the fourth time the Vial Goblins thread has gone off into the direction of "Someone suggests a Blue splash for Stifle or something else, Someone else suggests something, and then someone else brings up Goblin Fish." You'd think by now that if it were a good idea, someone would have actually played it after all this discussion and done something with the deck.

[Hightower]

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=11587

5th place with U/R Goblins in a 186 people tourney.

[Happy Gilmore]

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=11587

5th place with U/R Goblins in a 186 people tourney.

That just blows my mind, that deck looks awful...repeal? And no Aether Vial? I'd cut lackey before vial. I just don't get how a deck like that can win. And I hope to god that mana base was a joke.

[Hightower]

Hahaha, I didn't read the list through.. 7 Islands and 2 Barbarian Ring.. no Mountains, must be an error

[Happy Gilmore]

Hahaha, I didn't read the list through.. 7 Islands and 2 Barbarian Ring.. no Mountains, must be an error

ninja of the deep hours? That seems awful. Give me a tutor for just 1 mana more.

[GreenOne]

It comboes with Piledriver and Incinerator, and to a slight degree, Siege-Gang Commander. Matron, Ringleader, Wort, and Lackey don't recognize it for anything relevant.

Mutavault comboes with Warchief too, gaining haste the turn you play it.
However, fish-ing up goblin just reduce the threat number and the effectiveness of Ringleader. It's not that great deal since it does near to nothing for the matchups we care of (anything non-storm).

[Nightmare]

You'd think by now that if it were a good idea, someone would have actually played it after all this discussion and done something with the deck.I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying Mutavault isn't terrible. Even in non-blue Goblins, if you're running like a billion colorless lands, Mutavault is defendable.

[EternalDragon09]

ok so with that deck that took fifth at a 158 some man tourney????? Really.... ok so aside from the fact that well its just horrible it only runs two red sources for upwords of 16 red spells.... come on this is a serious thread, and a sceptical one at that! but still.....everyone else must of been playing 60 plains.dec like come on!

[WiLdFiRe]

Guys, Beserk Stompy won that tourney, I think that says it all...
EDIT: And the landstill list that T8ed ran maindeck Quagnoth? Really?

[Malchar]

I don't post here too often, but Goblins is the primary deck that I play. Just looking around for some information about what's hot in Shadowmoor. Here is my current list. I'm not necessarily asking for advice but I thought I might as well post it up anyway:

(28 essentials)
4 lackey
4 fanatic
4 piledriver
4 matron
4 warchief
4 ringleader
4 vial

(3 other things)
1 wort
1 siege-gang
1 kiki-jiki

(6 removal)
2 incinerator
4 weirding

(23 land)
8 fetch
4 wasteland
4 port
2 badland
5 mountain

(15 sideboard)
4 leyline
4 cabal therapy
4 chalice
1 goblin wizard
1 goblin king
1 goblin tinkerer

It's been said before, but Warren Weirding is the super card goblins has needed since thresh became dominant. Incinerator is great, but Weirding simply dominates the creatures that the deck has trouble dealing with: Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Silver Knight. For the mirror, it is easily sideboarded out.

I think that black is a mandatory color in any goblin deck. Besides, it also adds Wort. Wort is probably better than Kiki-Jiki, fulfilling a similar role, except being able to get goblins from the graveyard rather than having to choose from those already in play. From my experience, when the game goes long enough to require a Wort/Kiki-Jiki, there usually arn't many goblins in play but plenty in the grave. Returned goblins can easily chump block and come back next turn.

One of the best things to do with Wort is to play an early Weirding, a turn 4 Wort, and then keep bringing back the Weirding for a soft lock that can surprise many decks. It also works with Incinerator. I will probably take out Kiki-Jiki because I almost always search for Wort given the opportunity.

A final great thing about Wort is that it's a 3/3 for 4 with fear. It can usually attack safely each turn, and it even survives pyroclasm. It's basically a complete upgrade from Kiki-Jiki.

Combo is one of the few decks that I fear without my sideboard. Just for the sake of completion, the last great thing about running black is that you can bring in discard on the sideboard to beat combo. You can also hardcast a leyline, even though that really doesn't matter.

I'm not too sure about running green though. I'm not sure how important Krosan Grip and Tin-street are, granted that I havn't tested them. I'll try them and see how it works, but I will say that my meta doesn't have any Rock decks and only rarely does it have a stax/stompy deck. Another slight advantage is that a 3-color deck would have access to a 3-point engineered explosives. Let's see... and I can't even think of any useful things that would be destroyed by that.

Any goblin deck that uses blue is bound to fail. Blue requires at least 10 slots to make it at all worthwhile, and that's 10 non-goblin cards. At this point, the goblin tribal synergy has been weakened. Every goblin card depends on there being more goblin cards in the deck. The goblins might as well be replaced by a creature strategy that is strong on its own. Slivers works alright because the creatures grow and are hard to kill. Threshold creatures also work great. At the point where the deck falls below 95% goblin, it should just be 0% goblin.

I think that there is one very important thing to remember when working on a variation to the goblin deck. The fundamental plan behind goblins is to disrupt the opponent's manabase while playing speedy threats through the vial, such as piledriver. Cards like Warchief and Ringleader are amazing, but they are NOT unique to the goblin tribe. Elves, for example, doesn't even have a warchief but they can probably speed out creatures even faster than goblins. Slivers has neither of those cards but their tribe remains competitive against goblins.

That said, I also think that goblins could become a force to be reckoned with in terms of combat potential. On paper, I am really liking the card bloodmark mentor. I know that it has been discussed, but I see this card as an immediate threat against any opposing creature deck. Aside from the obvious piledriver, it makes it so that your stray weenies can gang up and kill big stuff.

As a last note, on Mutavault, I like the card a lot. However, I don't think it's better than the land control suite. It looks a lot better in slivers (or in the SB against slivers).

[Tacosnape]

Why in God's name would you only play 1 Siege-Gang Commander when you're running quad Weirding maindeck and have the best chances of connecting with a Lackey that you'll ever have? Kiki should be a Siege-Gang, and Wort should probably also be a Siege-Gang.

EDIT: Also, in what universe is Silver Knight still run?

[Nihil Credo]

Personally, I'd leave in Wort and cut one removal effect instead, but whatever. I agree 3 SGCs are the way to go.

For the SB, though, I don't see how Goblin Wizard can possibly be a good deal, and Goblin King seems just inferior to Mad Auntie. Regardless, you're fairly short on Engineered Plague answer; either you go heavy on the Crusade effects (at least 4-5, starting with Auntie and following up with Kings), or you add two Taigas and splash for Krosan Grip - which is the solution I favour.

[frolll]

// Lands
2 [U] Taiga
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [UNH] Mountain
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Badlands

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
4 [DS] Æther Vial
1 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 2 [MOR] Warren Weirding
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [IA] Anarchy

Sadly don't have lotsa time for this ATM, but that's what I am currently running, to some not too shabby results. the onlu thing that really bugs me is Aggro Loam, I tried running md or sb some Stingscourgers but they were kinda meh. Not convinced about them... What do you suggest to fix Aggro Loam MU; more Weirding md ? edit : Agree with Nihil : wort is good, don't cut her ! :)

Oh, and don't be too harsh on the sb thingie, it's ugly (extirpate/offalsnout/leyline I'm still not sure) but it works (well, mostly; Anarchy is really narrow and the 3 blasts aren't set in stone.
Oh, and, someone suggest me Artifact Mutation in the sb, playable, or bad idea ?

[Melwis]

Hello everyone!

Would just like to ask what some of you think about the goblin Vexing Shusher. Has to be pretty damn good versus control decks since most of them (all?) runs blue = counters.

[TeenieBopper]

Goblin Lackey
Aether Vial

Maybe as a tutor target from the board.

[Shriekmaw]

Goblin Lackey
Aether Vial

Maybe as a tutor target from the board.


I really don't see any of the new goblins worth while to add into the Legacy Version of the deck. The main deck is so tight right now, I can't see cutting anything to add a goblin thats only good in certain situations.

I could see maybe adding a target in the board for a tutor target, but the board is also very tight.

I agree with Tenniebopper, vial, lackey, and wasteland is more than enough against control.

[Avatara]

Boartusk Liege maybe? Sure it costs one more than king and auntie... but it's also immune to smother and plagues. Two hate cards that are often played together. It also survives a lightning bolt.

[Malchar]

First off, here's my quick opinions on the new cards.
Boartusk Liege is a little sub par. The deck should be changed to include additional red/green creatures, and probably goyf or some crap like that to make it worthwhile. The 1CCC mana cost is kind of hard to make especially considering it's only a 3/4 on its own. Trample is basically moot unless you get two of these in play which would be very rare.
The vexing shusher is alright but simply not needed in this deck. It would be much better in a storm deck actually. I would imagine it will see play in 1.X for sure, although I don't really follow that format.


Why in God's name would you only play 1 Siege-Gang Commander when you're running quad Weirding maindeck and have the best chances of connecting with a Lackey that you'll ever have? Kiki should be a Siege-Gang, and Wort should probably also be a Siege-Gang.

EDIT: Also, in what universe is Silver Knight still run?

After reworking this deck so many times I actually got to the point where I forgot about turn 1 lackey into a SGC. The main problem is that weirding still fails to guarantee a lackey connection if the opponent has stp, fow, daze, manlands, etc. In fact, weirding is rarely able to remove a blocking creature that mogg fanatic couldn't have taken care of already. However, i think that if i'm ready to consider something like bloodmark mentor or earwig squad, then i should go all-out and re-tool the deck for a much faster start.

Anyway, as an answer to your criticism, i chose to add weirding in the first place not as a way to get more lackeys connecting, but as a way to get rid of goyf and mongoose. SGC was originally at 3x but they were gradually replaced by kiki and then wort (when lorwyn released) as i changed the deck to give it more versatility and late-game potency. In fact, the only reason SGC was still in the deck was because it was a useful tool to have late game if my opponent has low life but lots of blockers or if they have a moat effect of some kind. It actually worked out on numerous occasions against random decks that I would otherwise lose to, such as ensnaring bridge, land deck with glacial chasm, dueling grounds, or ghostly prison.

Ok, so I was stretching with "silver knight", although I have faced it maindeck a number times in things like death and taxes, and some angel stompy (at least if i were playing angel stompy it would be in my deck). My overall philosophy is to create a versatile deck that refuses to utterly scoop against certain matchups, and I've seen far too many maindeck silver knights and even eplagues than i care to remember.

Granted, replacing wort/kiki with more SGC's would still give me the same matchups against those random decks. Anyway, I think I will increase the SGC count, but I will have much more trouble trying to fit in anything new from shadowmoor.

As for eplague answers, I think I'll be changing the SB to something like:
-1 goblin wizard
-1 goblin tinkerer
-1 goblin king
+3 mad auntie

I had liked the mountainwalk in the mirror but it is much too risky considering that they have gempalms. The regeneration of the auntie should more than make up for it anyway.

I think that I'll also be removing the cabal therapy and replacing it with kgrip or something to that effect. What do people think of using engineered explosives?

[TeenieBopper]

After reworking this deck so many times I actually got to the point where I forgot about turn 1 lackey into a SGC. The main problem is that weirding still fails to guarantee a lackey connection if the opponent has stp, fow, daze, manlands, etc. In fact, weirding is rarely able to remove a blocking creature that mogg fanatic couldn't have taken care of already.

Yeah, but weirding essentially makes FoW/StP/Bolt the only outs against a turn one lackey by eliminating about half their options. It pretty much doubles your connection rate. Fanatic isn't going to kill Mishra's Factory, or Nimble Mongoose, or Tarmogoyf or any other number of one or two drop creatures that have an ass bigger than one. Neither is Gempalm Incinerator, for that matter.

All the benefits you listed for SGC are good enough to run multiple copies. The fact that it acts as Ringleader 5-7 against control decks is huge, too.

Oh yeah, 2004 called. It wants its shitty Kiki tech back. The card sucks. If you're going to tutor for Kiki to copy something, why the fuck wouldn't you just tutor for the card you were going to copy anyways? It's always going to be cheaper. And Jesus Fuck Christ, Kiki in a deck with eight colorless sources? My head hurts.

Mad Auntie is a fucking god awful answer to Engineered Plague/Pyroclasm. One Engineered Plague doesn't really bother me. It's easy enough to play through. Engineered Plague number two, however, basically causes you to scoop it up. Guess what? Mad Auntie does shit against multiple Plagues, and still dies to Pyroclasm.

I really like Engineered Explosives, however.

[Lepp]

I have found that mad auntie by herself is not a good enough answer against decks packing plagues. It requires you to have 1 extra of her out for each plague past the first one. I've had 2 aunties out facing 2 plagues a few times, only to see one of them get taken out.

[EternalDragon09]

Goblins does not need a maindeck shusher. i agree one should go into the board but just one!!! black is sub-par to green u do not need threapy or mad auntie or wierding!!! wierding is bad. i have tried to play it against threshold they will counter it if relavant with spellsnare or force or even daze. it wont resolve unless they dont care about it, it slows you down a turn to tap 2 mana, and above that it is terrible. think about the fact when everyone played bolt or swords why did they play them bacause they were targeted. and could take care of THE problem creature. yes it is true i will board out tarfire in the threshold/goyf match for one pyromancer and one incinerator and a few REB, but that is the only time i dont like to see it and above that it is not bad at all.

[Nightmare]

wierding is bad...
i will board out tarfire
Maybe Weirding is bad because your deck is full of crap like Shock.

[TrialByFire]

wierding is bad. i have tried to play it against threshold they will counter it if relavant with spellsnare or force or even daze.

I agree they will usually have the Force or Spell Snare (provided you didn;t play turn 1 Aether Vial or Lackey), but if you walk into Daze you should quit Legacy anyways.

[bladewing019]

...
Maybe Weirding is bad because your deck is full of crap like Shock.

We had this discussion with him back on like page 52-53. He is just revisiting the same points, while refusing to listen to other people.

[chokin]

We had this discussion with him back on like page 52-53. He is just revisiting the same points, while refusing to listen to other people.

"Goblins is aggro, not control so trying to Edict every turn while good in some or most cases is just not fast enough" -EternalDragon

Having the ability to remove a Mongoose to connect with a Lackey is huge. Being able to get rid of a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker for 2 mana regardless of how many goblins you have down is amazing.

"wierding is bad. i have tried to play it..."(cut here for lawls)

Tried and failed(OH DANG!) I'm kidding mostly. I just think it's silly to have Tarfire over Weirding as a GoblinShock does so little. It's so underwhelming when you're winning, and even worse when losing.

"think about the fact when everyone played bolt or swords why did they play them bacause they were targeted."

I think that Pyrokinesis was played more often than Bolt because it could, for two cards and no mana, kill 1-4 creatures and dodge Daze and Spell Snare. Against Thresh, Bolt didn't kill Bear(pre-Goyf), but PK did. Swords was played because it didn't care about the size or color specifications of the creature, it looked for: is it targetable? and is it a problem? Swords is pretty much the best and cheapest removal spell that deals with a larger number of creatures than Bolt or PK. It has absolutely nothing to do with targetting...it's cheap and effective.

Weirding provides a tutor-able, Ringleader-able, Warcheif discountable removal spell that gives you the ability to kill any creature so long as it is the only one on the board. In the case of Thresh, all of their creatures are good...so being able to remove that shrouded Goose, fat-and-cheap Goyf, or big flier/TechCreatureX for 1B or B with a Cheif online is a very big deal. Throw a resolved Wort to the mix and your fear of Spell Snare simply goes away. Sure a resolved Counterbalance is lame, but that's why people also have at least 1 Gempalm I guess.

Black rocks. Green is a nice support too, but there's no reason not to go Rb with a hint of lime(GREEN!) for Grip and Hooligan and the occasional Ancient Grudge. If you disagree, just don't play it, but Tarfire is teh suxor imho. Shock doesn't stop Goyf or Goose. If I wanted to Shock my opponent everyturn, I'd use SGC.

I do agree that Shusher belongs in the board, not in the main. I dunno if I want just 1 or what though.

[EternalDragon09]

true we did have this descussion however it is vital. i would love for one person to go to any shop around me and try and win with wierding. seriously it is good as it self BUT they have to many answers... and if i was to walk into a daze well then i shouldnt play wierding then should i because when i go turn one lackey then they go turn one goose and i attempt a wierding next turn to try and connect with him i am walking into a DAZE?? come on that is dumb you are contradicting yourself. and for that matter if they waste thier force on lackey then i wierding what??.......... the invisible creature sitting in front of me while they draw cards and i say.....must be nice.

Posting standards are higher in the DTB forum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455) than elsewhere on the site. In the future, use proper grammar, spelling, sentence structure, etc. or suffer the Wrath of Mod. Grazi. - Bardo

[Jujuhawk]

true we did have this descussion however it is vital. i would love for one person to go to any shop around me and try and win with wierding. seriously it is good as it self BUT they have to many answers... and if i was to walk into a daze well then i shouldnt play wierding then should i because when i go turn one lackey then they go turn one goose and i attempt a wierding next turn to try and connect with him i am walking into a DAZE?? come on that is dumb you are contradicting yourself. and for that matter if they waste thier force on lackey then i wierding what??.......... the invisible creature sitting in front of me while they draw cards and i say.....must be nice.

Posting standards are higher in the DTB forum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455) than elsewhere on the site. In the future, use proper grammar, spelling, sentence structure, etc. or suffer the Wrath of Mod. Grazi. - Bardo

You clearly wierding the goyf they play 2 turns later. You know you don't have to cast the card turn 2.

[bladewing019]

and if i was to walk into a daze well then i shouldnt play wierding then should i because when i go turn one lackey then they go turn one goose and i attempt a wierding next turn to try and connect with him i am walking into a DAZE?? come on that is dumb you are contradicting yourself

It is a matter of weighing the risks vs. rewards. If getting the turn 2 SGC means I might get my 1 for 1d then so be it.


and for that matter if they waste thier force on lackey then i wierding what??

So if the opponent has no targets you just go Tarfire to the dome on turn 2?

A couple other things wrong with that statement:
1) Countering Lackey with a FoW is not a waste of a FoW.
2) They might still play the Mongoose
3) You have other things to do with that mana

[chokin]

Countering a turn 1 Lackey or Vial is no waste of a FoW. In a case of you having Lackey down and a Weirding when they have a Goose down, Weirding resolving means you hit with Lackey(unless it gets STP'd, burned, Demised/Smothered, etc). Not resolving it means they used a counter of some form and you can still swing with the Lackey to prevent that 1/1 from becoming a 3/3 later. They have a lot of answers, but we have tons of threats as well.

Tarfire is janky. It doesn't stop Goose. It doesn't stop Goyf unless they're retarded. The only way it's better is if they have no creatures in which you have a clear board for both Lackey and your other little green men.

If they counter Lackey, they can still play Goose. Or they can not. You don't need to unload your hand. That's not how you play Goblins. That's how you lose with Goblins. Overcommiting will cause losses if they happen to use any sort of mass removal. And if it's turn 2 with no creature on their field, you now have a chance to NOT get Weirding Dazed. That makes Force and Snare the only counters to worry about. Not everyone plays Snare. Not everyone plays 4. I suppose CB could counter it, but most of your goblins are out of CB range and Gempalm recurring still beats their scariest creature(Goyf)

[Elficidium]

Tarfire is janky. It doesn't stop Goose. It doesn't stop Goyf unless they're retarded.

If I'm not mistaken, it just plain can't stop goyf whatsoever, since it's a tribal instant and as such the goyf would be at least 2/3 when state based effects are checked.

[troopatroop]

If I'm not mistaken, it just plain can't stop goyf whatsoever, since it's a tribal instant and as such the goyf would be at least 2/3 when state based effects are checked.

This is nitpicky, but there could already be an instant in the graveyard, and you could use combat damage on top of the spell.

[chokin]

Maybe if you used 2 Tarfires :P. But within 2-3 turns, I'd say there is bound to be a land and maybe a creature or sorcery in the GY potentially making Goyf at least a 2/3 before SBE. Originally when I was thinking that Tarfire doesn't stop Goyf unless they're retarded, I was thinking of them blocking a creature and using Tarfire to finish it like Troopa mentions, but seriously, Gempalm is miles better than Tarfire(and I think that Gempalm and Weirding are both great in different situations).

Against Thresh, Tarfire doesn't help Lackey hit. It's better than Gempalm when you don't have 1R and at least 2 goblins in play, but neither stop Goose.

On a side note, what's the best number of Ports to run? I see lists going 0, 2, 3 and 4. I don't know what's best. Any advice? And is running 1 Wort the way to go now?

[Jujuhawk]

I don't think there is a "correct" number of ports to run. Some people run a complete non-basic manabase with a full set of wastes (which IS correct) and 3-4 ports. Personally I run 2 ports, with a full set of red fetches, and 3 basics.

It's personal preference really.

[chokin]

I don't think there is a "correct" number of ports to run. Some people run a complete non-basic manabase with a full set of wastes (which IS correct) and 3-4 ports. Personally I run 2 ports, with a full set of red fetches, and 3 basics.

It's personal preference really.

I ended up running a manabase that looked like:

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
1 Swamp

I've always run 4 Wasteland and liked it. I only ran into color issues once tonight having 1 Mountain, 3 Wastelands and 1 Port for like 10 turns. I stayed alive by resolving Matron/Ringleader and chumping until I got another Mountain. I dropped my hand in a couple turns after that and won.

I want to run another Badlands(I don't own #3 yet). I want to maybe drop the singleton Swamp. I might drop green, but love Grip too much. My only nightmare matchups so far are Goyf Sligh and Thresh. I consider Goyf Sligh close to unwinnable like 40/60 preboard 25/75 post(Pyroclasm = :( ) Thresh is tough preboard (50/50) due to bad pilot/build and 60/40 postboard(Grip, Leyline, and Shusher soon).

Any ideas to boost some performance in the Sligh area? I die.

[Shriekmaw]

My only nightmare matchups so far are Goyf Sligh and Thresh. I consider Goyf Sligh close to unwinnable like 40/60 preboard 25/75 post(Pyroclasm = :( ) Thresh is tough preboard (50/50) due to bad pilot/build and 60/40 postboard(Grip, Leyline, and Shusher soon).

Any ideas to boost some performance in the Sligh area? I die.


I do consider Goyf and Red Burn to be very bad matchups for goblins. I have won those matchups before, but you have to get extremely lucky. Since I have 4 chalice and 3 therapy in my board, these are 2 matchups where I bring them in against since all there spells cost either 1 or 2 mana to cast.

I believe Red Threshold is the hardest version to beat, but game 1 is 50/50 with games 2 & 3 to be about 40/60. If I see white threshold its not that hard to beat, I would give it a 60/40 overall match ratio for goblins.

The threshold matchup is very dependent on the pilot of the deck because there are so many critical decisions that must be made against you.

Current Board:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered Explosives