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Joe_C
07-31-2008, 05:13 PM
If players start by switching only to the black splash for goblins, then what is your answer to engineered plague? I simply don't want to be put into a situation where I don't have an answer to that card. I believe the green splash is very important in the metagame today as it gives you more answers like engineered explosives, cabal therapy, krosn grip, tin street hooligan.
.

I dont understand your arguement entirely. You have 3 grips in your board. that you cant tutor in any way for. do you think by the time you draw one the game will be in your favor? I opt to REMOVE those threats from the deck with earwig and beat face. The 3rd SCG has been fantastic, 3 earwigs makes chances of turn 2 prowl even better. What deck that boards e. plague arent we faster than? I also am playing larger CC goblins to avoid getting nailed by explosives. I would love to squeeze some ports into my deck to get the mana denial going to really put the pinch on the opponent.

Dralnu's Crusade is another option for the board against plague, but I dont think it is necessary

GreenOne
07-31-2008, 08:55 PM
There's mad auntie too. That thing also helps in chumpblocking goyfs.

Shriekmaw
08-06-2008, 01:47 PM
I dont understand your arguement entirely. You have 3 grips in your board. that you cant tutor in any way for. do you think by the time you draw one the game will be in your favor? I opt to REMOVE those threats from the deck with earwig and beat face. The 3rd SCG has been fantastic, 3 earwigs makes chances of turn 2 prowl even better. What deck that boards e. plague arent we faster than? I also am playing larger CC goblins to avoid getting nailed by explosives. I would love to squeeze some ports into my deck to get the mana denial going to really put the pinch on the opponent.

Dralnu's Crusade is another option for the board against plague, but I dont think it is necessary


I'm going to try to explain my reasoning to you. You are relying on a card that is only good against hate if you draw it earlier. Furthermore, Earwing Squad is a sub-par goblin to be playing in the deck. There are many other goblins that come to my head that I would play before I would even consider Earwing Squad. It's a good card to play in extended, but as for legacy; forget about it.

What is your point that I can't tutor for grip and how is that even relevant?

I have 3 Krosan Grips and 2 Engineered Explosives in my board to help fight through plagues. A lot of players have not included explosives when they are playing 3 colors in the board which is a mistake. Explosives helps you solve so many different problems, a great card to have.

I don't understand why you have a problem with my build, its way more consistent in not only dealing with plague, but also other matchups with the addition of green in the main deck and board.

Bryant Cook
08-06-2008, 01:51 PM
To back what Nick said. What if they have said card in hand, not their library? Earwig Squad does nothing to stop an opening hand with 2x Plague. Nothing.

Ozymandias
08-07-2008, 09:41 PM
To be fair, double plague will only happen about 10% of the time, and R/b lists will always be running Therapies, which they will have about 40% of the time. so 6% autoloss is not the end of the world. With grips and therapies, that only drops to a 4% chance of pulling an opener without an answer and the opp having double plague.

On another not, Earwig Squad is a terrific card to deal with threat-light decks like Thresh or MUC, where it demands a coi

Brizentine Empire
08-08-2008, 03:38 PM
K guys, I've been a long-time visiter of the source, but this is my first post, but as a competitive and successful Goblin player of over a year, this is what I've learned: If you're playing RbG gobs, like I do, grip and E Explosives are necessary in the board. Not only do they stop E Plague, but also other problem cards such as Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, most enchantments (minus Moat for E Explosives) of Enchantress, and are just amazingly useful in most situations. I run ONE earwig squad in my board, and board it in against Threshold, combo, Enchantress, and a few other problem match-ups. I don't agree with running them in the main, as in most cases they're not as good as Seige-Gang at 5, and lots of times you want a more valid spell at three to solve the problems that HAVE ALREADY HIT THE BOARD by turn three, as they most likely have. Also, I run 4 thoughtseize mainboard, which through an immense amount of playtesting, have proven to be amazing. That gets rid of the problem spells on turn one without your opponent even playing them. If anything, bye-bye Goyfy. Ask if you want my list.

Illissius
08-08-2008, 05:57 PM
I just had a pretty interesting idea. Some crazy U/R Goblins deck has already been proposed on these boards, but this isn't really that; it's just --

Goblins.dec With Blue Splash

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
? Siege-Gang Commander
? Gempalm Incinerator
4 Standstill
3-4 Stifle
3-4 Wasteland
3-4 Mutavault
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
2-4 Mountain
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Daze
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Mind Harness

You gain:
- Standstill, which together with Vial, Lackey, and Mutavault, might be good. (It might still not be, but the potential is definitely there. I haven't tested it.)
- Stifle, which goes well with Wasteland.
- The ability to actually beat a combo deck after boarding. Force, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland, together with a good clock, should be formidable. 16 blue cards for Force isn't great by any means, but it should be workable.

You lose:
- Any half-decent way of dealing with a Tarmogoyf in the maindeck.
- The ability to play the number of Siege-Gangs and Incinerators which you would otherwise like to.
- A good way to deal with Plagues and other random things. (There's bounce, but bounce isn't Grip.)

The existence of Tarmogoyf is a significant mark against it, but in certain metagames, with, um... not too many Tarmogoyfs, but lots of combo and lots of decks which are naturally weak against Goblins... it might be worth a shot.

Brizentine Empire
08-09-2008, 03:38 AM
UR Golbins has always been an interesting idea, but never good enough. And where I play, there are massive amounts of Threshold. Golbins lose to a resolved Goyf with protection, i.e. counter-top, counterspells, etc. for your answers. If you want a blue/red deck, play green/red/blue Threshold, which is much better than UR goblins, in my opinion. I play the following build:

4 Mountains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Rishidan Port
3 Wasteland

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

1 Tarfire

4 AEther Vial

4 Warren Weirding
4 Thoughtseize

Side Board (obviously meta-dependent)
1 Earwig Squad
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin Pyromancer
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void

The mainboard thoughtseizes wreck alot of trouble matchups, including Threshold, Geddon Stax, and Stiflenought/dreadstill, all of which are in my meta. Also, I believe 4 warren weirding is amazing. In legacy, all of the best decks (besides Goblins) play 8-12 creatures, which means they'll play 1-2 a game. Warren weirding has won me so many games by destroying Goyf after Goyf. It kills Mongoose, Goyf, Dreadnought, Tog (ITF), Argothian Enchantress, Tombstalker, and all of those rarely have companions alongside them to sacrifice. Anyway, its good. :P

Ectoplasm
08-10-2008, 05:41 PM
Hey, I've been getting into goblins lately (mostly on MWS though I'm building a deck in real life as well) and I was wondering why nobody seems to play kiki anymore? He seems like a pretty versatile guy to me, being able to fetch you a goblin every turn and spitting out 2 piledriver copies to finish your opponent off.

He seems like a win more card and his manacost is kind of steep, but doesn't his versatility make up for it?

Also, my apologies for asking this question if it's already been answered somewhere on page 40 (or something) since I honestly haven't had the time to read everything yet.

Nihil Credo
08-10-2008, 05:44 PM
Short version: there are very few situations where K-J will win the game while Siege Gang Commander doesn't, but there are a lot of them where the reverse happens.

Ectoplasm
08-10-2008, 05:46 PM
Fair enough, thanks for the swift answer.

I'm a TROLL
08-11-2008, 09:06 PM
I just had a pretty interesting idea. Some crazy U/R Goblins deck has already been proposed on these boards, but this isn't really that; it's just --

Goblins.dec With Blue Splash

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
? Siege-Gang Commander
? Gempalm Incinerator
4 Standstill
3-4 Stifle
3-4 Wasteland
3-4 Mutavault
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
2-4 Mountain
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Daze
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Mind Harness

You gain:
- Standstill, which together with Vial, Lackey, and Mutavault, might be good. (It might still not be, but the potential is definitely there. I haven't tested it.)
- Stifle, which goes well with Wasteland.
- The ability to actually beat a combo deck after boarding. Force, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland, together with a good clock, should be formidable. 16 blue cards for Force isn't great by any means, but it should be workable.

You lose:
- Any half-decent way of dealing with a Tarmogoyf in the maindeck.
- The ability to play the number of Siege-Gangs and Incinerators which you would otherwise like to.
- A good way to deal with Plagues and other random things. (There's bounce, but bounce isn't Grip.)

The existence of Tarmogoyf is a significant mark against it, but in certain metagames, with, um... not too many Tarmogoyfs, but lots of combo and lots of decks which are naturally weak against Goblins... it might be worth a shot.

What an awesome idea. Standstill is wicked in the deck. Is there any way we could sneak in Brainstorm? If we could do that then we could add four Force of Will!! Take that Threshold!

Brizentine Empire
08-11-2008, 09:13 PM
Bad Magic, you are being sarcastic, right? Blue in Goblins will never work. Threshold will beat it every time, no matter what, and when I was at the GP Indy Legacy event, half of the field was Threshold.

I'm a TROLL
08-11-2008, 09:29 PM
Bad Magic, you are being sarcastic, right? Blue in Goblins will never work. Threshold will beat it every time, no matter what, and when I was at the GP Indy Legacy event, half of the field was Threshold.

No. Brainstorm into Goblin Lacky with Force of Will to back it up sounds amazing. It would seem there are a lot of good goblins but usually only the best ones are relavant.

didn't goblins used to beat thrashold before Tarmogoyf? We just need to find new ways to beat it.

Jaiminho
08-11-2008, 09:36 PM
Brainstorm screws your tempo badly. It's not an option for aggro decks.

I'm a TROLL
08-11-2008, 09:49 PM
Brainstorm screws your tempo badly. It's not an option for aggro decks.

Yeah, but protecting gobling lackey gains way more tempo and gives you a solid win con. We play lots of fetches too, it could be good.

edgewalker
08-11-2008, 09:59 PM
Standstill is counter productive for you even if you are playing vial and lackey. I would also pay attention to what people are saying about brainstorm, it's a tempo loss anyway you look at it. Sure you save your lackey, but you also put back a goblin or two you could have put into play with him. I'd rather play the raw card advantage the deck originally played.

I'm a TROLL
08-11-2008, 10:03 PM
Standstill is counter productive for you even if you are playing vial and lackey. I would also pay attention to what people are saying about brainstorm, it's a tempo loss anyway you look at it. Sure you save your lackey, but you also put back a goblin or two you could have put into play with him. I'd rather play the raw card advantage the deck originally played.

Yeah, but goblin lackey doesnt have haste. you draw a card for the turn and we start the game with seven cards. seems like a non-issue if you ask me

besides, how sick is Gobling ringleader with brainstorm? It's a draw engine!

edgewalker
08-11-2008, 10:11 PM
Those goblins where in your hand to begin with though...

I'm a TROLL
08-11-2008, 10:15 PM
Those goblins where in your hand to begin with though...

Draw engine. put them back on top and reveal them.

I'm a TROLL
08-11-2008, 10:36 PM
I'ave been working on this build:

2 Seage Gang Commandeer
4 Goblin ringleader
4 Goblin piledriver
4 Goblin lackey
2 Goblin matorn
4 Goblin warchef
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorn
4 Force of woll
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 AEther vile
4 Wastland
6 fetches
4 Volcanic island
4 Shivan reef

Beeing able to protect the broken makes life easier. Plus their's lots of disruption using Force, daze, stifle, wasteland. Lots of tempo. How could the sideboard be made using a totally undeveloped color for Gobos?

Again You gain:
- Standstill, which together with Vial, Lackey, might be good.
- Stifle, which goes well with Wasteland.
- The ability to actually beat a combo deck for sure. Force, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland, together with a good clock, should be amazing!!.

You lose:
- Any half-decent way of dealing with a Tarmogoyf in the maindeck other than from the start.
- The ability to play the number of Siege-Gangs and Incinerators which you would otherwise like to.
- A good way to deal with Plagues and other random things. (There's bounce, but bounce isn't Grip.)

edgewalker
08-11-2008, 11:21 PM
Draw engine. put them back on top and reveal them.

They are in you're hand to begin with! How many times do I have to say it? Ringleader is a draw engine all by himself, by the time you're playing it you only really want goblins.

Illissius
08-11-2008, 11:29 PM
Besides Brainstorm costing you tempo, the real argument against it is that you would have to cut Goblins, which makes Ringleader suck. I would sooner add some more Goblins to that original list in place of Standstills than cut more of them -- but then that makes your blue card count for boarding in Force perilously low. Really the reason I posted it this was because I was intrigued that there seems to exist a middle ground where Ringleader still works before boarding, and Force (just barely) works after boarding.

If you want to majorly cut down on Goblins to add 20 blue cards, there was another thread about that, somewhere...

I'm a TROLL
08-11-2008, 11:31 PM
They are in you're hand to begin with! How many times do I have to say it? Ringleader is a draw engine all by himself, by the time you're playing it you only really want goblins.

No, no, no! If you draw three land, then put two goblins on top you just drew two more cards you wouldn't have gotten otherwise!

Shriekmaw
08-12-2008, 12:32 PM
No, no, no! If you draw three land, then put two goblins on top you just drew two more cards you wouldn't have gotten otherwise!



I would appreciate it, if you could think about the main goals of goblins and what cards would be best in order to achieve that goal. If you think about it, blue is the worse possible color to splash for goblins. If you don't believe me then playtest it and you will see based on the results.

I believe the only viable colors are either white/black/green. I'm going with the splashes of black and green b/c of the cards it allows me to play both in the main deck and the sideboard. I put up very good results with the deck when I decide to play it.

If you go back and read the posts that have been made in this thread about the different versions of goblins, you will see what has worked for people in the past.

lunar_eternal_blue
08-12-2008, 03:05 PM
Blue in goblins is just not good enough. They don't work well together. First of all, blue is more control, and in order to go aggro control, you need to use a few powerful creatures, not a swarm of them. Goblins needs lots of creatures, blue needs fewer creatures.

Also, goblins don't gain much from blue. They get the ability to beat combo easier, but counters still aren't a guaranteed win, especially with so few cards to use with force. Black splash with thoughtseizes helps with combo, and so do chalice from the board along with a fast clock. If your meta is full of combo, then don't play goblins. Other than an improved combo matchup, blue gives you nothing. Green and black help you deal with permanents via Grip and Weirding. While standstill sounds good in theory, Ringleaders and Matrons provide all the card advantage you really need, and adding standstill just weakens those. Blue is used for control/disruption, but goblins can do this with mana denial via waste and port along with thoughtseizes/weirdings/swords. Goblins need a way to deal with troublesome permanents. Green, black and/or white all give goblins what they need. Blue doesn't really.

If in future sets, some blue/hybrid goblin that helps the two work together, then maybe, but as it stands, there is no reason to use blue with goblins. The other splashes are better. Red thresh is better. If you want a swarming control deck, merfolk or faeries would probably even work better. Blue splash goblins can't do anything better than any of those.

thefreakaccident
08-12-2008, 03:15 PM
I had tried tirelessly to put blue into the deck, and it just doesn't work.

If you want disruption in the MD, just add cabal therapy, it isn't that bad, as it can affect most decks significantly, and you usually have extra gobbos to sac to it.


Anything further than 4 vial, and 3-4 other spells is bad for gobbos, as they just want to be able to retool immediately after being stopped, or just kill immediately... I do not see why this discussion keeps coming up, when it is clearly obvious:

Goblins is an agro deck, it looses to combo, but uses its' resilience to combat anything that would try to stop its' game plan, through redundancy, and CA.

Dark_Cynic87
08-12-2008, 03:54 PM
That's what keeps irking me. Why does it HAVE to lose to combo? Is there NOTHING that could be done? I don't know, I hate playing decks where I have to say "well, just hope I don't see it...".

If not, fine, but I hate that...

Also, I was wondering about my list (it's a straight-up copy of I think NickRit's), but I was wondering about my removal "suite". I'm taking it with me to GenCon, and was wondering if you guys would do anything different.

List:

4x Lackey
4x Warchief
4x Matron
4x Piledriver
4x Ringleader
4x Fanatic
2x Incinerator
3x Earwig Squad
1x Wort
1x Sharpshooter/SGC (which? I'm guessing u will say SGC...)
1x Tinkerer

4x Vial
1x Wierding

5x Mountain
4x Foothills
4x Mire
4x Wastes
3x Badlands
2x Taiga

SB:
2x EE
3x Grip
3x Therapy
3x Pyrokinesis
4x CotV

Wondering about the numbers of Incinerator and Wierdings, curious about what/when Tarfire is ever used (If ever), and whether or not I should include P-blasts/REB's in the SB over anything.

Appreciate all your input.

Pce,

--DC

I'm a TROLL
08-12-2008, 04:25 PM
I would appreciate it, if you could think about the main goals of goblins and what cards would be best in order to achieve that goal. If you think about it, blue is the worse possible color to splash for goblins. If you don't believe me then playtest it and you will see based on the results.

I believe the only viable colors are either white/black/green. I'm going with the splashes of black and green b/c of the cards it allows me to play both in the main deck and the sideboard. I put up very good results with the deck when I decide to play it.

If you go back and read the posts that have been made in this thread about the different versions of goblins, you will see what has worked for people in the past.


Really? Maybe if you tried it. I have been trying it and the ability to back up goblin lackey is amazing. It has been winning games

Also, you gain land hate with wasteland and stifle. Have you even tried it?

Don't get me started with how good lackey or ether vile is when back by standstill. then you standstill into seige gang commandeer backed by daze and force of will!! "Itz the nutz!"

Posting int he DtB threads means that you should make an effort to correct both your spelling and grammar. Please do so.
-TOOL

Jak
08-12-2008, 04:55 PM
really? maybe if you tried it. i have been trying it and the ability to back up goblin lackey is amazing. It has been wining games

also, you gain land hate with wasteland and stifle. have you even tried it?

Dont get me started with how good lackey or ether vile is when back by standstill. then you standstill into seige gang commandeer backed by daze and force of will!! Itz the nutz!

Posting int he DtB threads means that you should make an effort to correct both your spelling and grammar. Please do so.
-TOOL

If only life was perfect, huh? Goblins is aggro and playing Standstill is just counterproductive. Sure, you may get the perfect hand once in a while with Vial, Lackey, Standstill, Gang, Lands but those wont happen often. You will get shit hands and goblins will suck because you took away the only thing they had going for them, the tribal aspect and being all out aggro.

I'm a TROLL
08-12-2008, 05:03 PM
If only life was perfect, huh? Goblins is aggro and playing Standstill is just counterproductive. Sure, you may get the perfect hand once in a while with Vial, Lackey, Standstill, Gang, Lands but those wont happen often. You will get shit hands and goblins will suck because you took away the only thing they had going for them, the tribal aspect and being all out aggro.

Maybe some of the time but you get to draw 3 cards. That is 5% of the deck.

Illissius
08-12-2008, 05:04 PM
I don't know, I hate playing decks where I have to say "well, just hope I don't see it...".

Then play UWx Landstill. I think that's probably the most all around solid if unspectacular deck in the metagame right now, with no gaping vulnerabilities that I can immediately think of.

I'm a TROLL
08-12-2008, 05:11 PM
Then play UWx Landstill. I think that's probably the most all around solid if unspectacular deck in the metagame right now, with no gaping vulnerabilities that I can immediately think of.

No, this is the Goblins post. If he wanted to play Landstill he would, or he could try my Gobos build!

raharu
08-12-2008, 06:02 PM
So, if the metagame warants it, could a SB for a Rbg list look like this:

Sideboard: 15
Cabal Therapy x3
Thoughtseize x4
Mad Auntie x3 or 2
Krosan Grip x2 or 3
Engineered Explosives x3

and be able to fight through hate and combo? I don't think that discard this heavy has been tried before, and with discard and EE the combo MU (which would include Ichorid, which doesn't like early Thoughtseize or EE, which, in addition to Fanatic should be enough to cinch up that match) should be much easier, and with EE, Grips, and Aunties in the deck, hate should be easy to anwser. Actually, is there anything that SB doesn't handle? Are there any holes in it?

Illissius
08-12-2008, 07:50 PM
I don't think Auntie is a good card to sideboard. It's terrible as an answer to Plague. It does nothing against two Plagues, and is nullified by any of the removal people are bringing and keeping in against you anyways. When Swords to Plowshares counters your answer to Plague, you're not in good shape. (Is Plague still such an overriding concern, anyways? I've seen much less of it around these days, corresponding with Goblins' fall from dominance. Grip should still be worth running because of Humility, Shackles, the Plagues which are still around, and suchlike, though.)

I also don't think 7-8 discard spells in the board are going to be "enough" against today's combo decks -- game one is still close to an autoloss, so if you want a good chance of winning the match, your post-sideboard percentages need to be significantly over 50%, and I don't think a single piece of discard, which is what you're most often going to draw, is going to accomplish that. Far as I know one of the only effects which stands a good chance of stopping a combo deck single handedly by itself is Orim's Chant. You could go for something like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
4 Chalice of the Void / Cabal Therapy / Abeyance / ?

Leyline is also very good against all the Loam decks these days; Fanatic isn't going to do much against those. Not sure what the other piece of disruption should be -- two mana is a lot more mana to keep open than one, so Abeyance isn't a shoo in.

EDIT -- I completely forgot about Earwig Squad. That could be helpful, if you live until turn three.

Brizentine Empire
08-12-2008, 08:53 PM
This is horrible, Blue is not good in gobling, especially with brainstorms and standstills. It doesn't create tempo, it ruins it! Do you honestly think Gobs doesn't have a good enough tempo already? It's already the fastest creeature-based deck in legacy, which is WHY WE PLAY IT! Now, I understand that you want more disruption for combo, but look at my build on the last page: 4 thoughtseizes and 4 warren weirding mainboard. I've beaten TES on game one about 35% of the time because of a first turn thoughtseize, and I actually believe I have the advantage in games 2-3, with 4 chalice and an earwig squad coming in. Right now, in all my playtesting (and yes I've tested UR Gobs!) B/r/g Goblins is the best build. And as for the person asking abour weirding and tarfire, I run 4 weriding, 1 tarfire, and 1 incinerator. Weirding just wins in legacy.

I'm a TROLL
08-12-2008, 09:15 PM
This is horrible, Blue is not good in gobling, especially with brainstorms and standstills. It doesn't create tempo, it ruins it! Do you honestly think Gobs doesn't have a good enough tempo already? It's already the fastest creeature-based deck in legacy, which is WHY WE PLAY IT! Now, I understand that you want more disruption for combo, but look at my build on the last page: 4 thoughtseizes and 4 warren weirding mainboard. I've beaten TES on game one about 35% of the time because of a first turn thoughtseize, and I actually believe I have the advantage in games 2-3, with 4 chalice and an earwig squad coming in. Right now, in all my playtesting (and yes I've tested UR Gobs!) B/r/g Goblins is the best build. And as for the person asking abour weirding and tarfire, I run 4 weriding, 1 tarfire, and 1 incinerator. Weirding just wins in legacy.

For the record mono-green stompy is the fastest beatdown becuase of Berserk.

The ability to back your plays up with Daze and Force of will is amazing. The card draw of Brainstrom and Standstill is amazing. So, we loose a tiny but of "tenpo" to back up are plan and beat the combos? I'll take it!

xsockmonkeyx
08-12-2008, 09:26 PM
So, if the metagame warants it, could a SB for a Rbg list look like this:

Sideboard: 15
Cabal Therapy x3
Thoughtseize x4
Mad Auntie x3 or 2
Krosan Grip x2 or 3
Engineered Explosives x3

and be able to fight through hate and combo? I don't think that discard this heavy has been tried before, and with discard and EE the combo MU (which would include Ichorid, which doesn't like early Thoughtseize or EE, which, in addition to Fanatic should be enough to cinch up that match) should be much easier, and with EE, Grips, and Aunties in the deck, hate should be easy to anwser. Actually, is there anything that SB doesn't handle? Are there any holes in it?

Tranquil Domain is a much, much better answer to Plague than Auntie (Im assuming that's what Auntie is for), and hits multiples like a champ.

raharu
08-12-2008, 11:48 PM
Tranquil Domain is a much, much better answer to Plague than Auntie (Im assuming that's what Auntie is for), and hits multiples like a champ.
And it really pisses off Enchantress (the Battletoadz player and the deck).

Cabal Therapy x4
Chalice of the Void x4
Krosan Grip x3
Tranquil Domain x3
Earwig Squad x1 (assuming more are in the MD)

Personally I'd love to see some Extirpates in the Side, but that's just my obsession with Exitrpate showing up again. Are there too many anti-artifact spells in the side (I think there are, but I would think it's best to have more anti-hate than they have hate)? If so, what's the right balance? To the players running 4x Warren Wierding in the MD: how does the Agro Loam match look? Do you run Worts?

Brizentine Empire
08-13-2008, 03:50 AM
With four warren weirding, I run 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie for utility. Sometimes a Warren Weirding-Wort lock is possible.
As for the Agro-Loam Match-up, I actually played it in a tournament last Friday, and lost. Warren weirding was very effective, as it can take down their outrageously big Terravore or Crusher. I won game one with a weirding followed by a typical goblin over-run, but game two and three he boarded in pyroclasm which really evened it out. Game 2 he pyroclasmed, followed by a terravore and a devastating dream, ouch. Game 3 I kept a suspect hand and drew into too many lands without a ringleader or matron, just drew 3 warchiefs. Overall, I'd say that weirdings are good in the match-up, but I lost, so I guess the match-up is still shaky in my testing.

lunar_eternal_blue
08-13-2008, 08:32 AM
Personally I'd love to see some Extirpates in the Side, but that's just my obsession with Exitrpate showing up again.

Extirpate sounds amazing. I was thinking about it myself as well. Especially with wastelands and thoughtseizes. Also, Weirding on goyf then extirpate goyf would be great too. As far as matchups go, it would help tremendously against combo and control, as well as all of those pain in the ass life from the loam decks. Although I think Extirpate is amazing and could easily go in the mainboard, goblins probably shouldn't put it there. Still, it would be a good sideboard card anyway against those matchups I mentioned, or an unexpected tech against threshold.

Shriekmaw
08-13-2008, 12:51 PM
For the record mono-green stompy is the fastest beatdown becuase of Berserk.

The ability to back your plays up with Daze and Force of will is amazing. The card draw of Brainstrom and Standstill is amazing. So, we loose a tiny but of "tenpo" to back up are plan and beat the combos? I'll take it!


The fastest aggro deck is Goblins, hands down. Goblins can win on turn 3 and could be faster if the deck was built just for pure speed. I believe you need more things to go right for a mono-green stompy deck to beat you than goblins.

If you think the blue splash is so good, then how about posting some top 8's in large events. I would really like to see that to prove your point.

Brizentine Empire
08-13-2008, 03:21 PM
Thank you, nikrit ^^^. At the legacy side event at the Grand Prix Indy, a R/W Goblins build played by a guy named Troy Thompson took second out of like 128 people. I played him with my RBG goblins and lost, mainly due to the fact that his deck has a much better mirror, what with swords against my useless weirdings. However, U/R Gobs has seen no success, and as I've said, I've tested it and it is not as good as three color gobs or even a white-splash, as shown by Mr. Thompson and Indianapolis.

I'm a TROLL
08-13-2008, 03:31 PM
The fastest aggro deck is Goblins, hands down. Goblins can win on turn 3 and could be faster if the deck was built just for pure speed. I believe you need more things to go right for a mono-green stompy deck to beat you than goblins.

If you think the blue splash is so good, then how about posting some top 8's in large events. I would really like to see that to prove your point.


Oh, yeah. Goblins way faster than a deck with growth effects and stuff to double the power!

Go first turn Jungle Lion, a 2/1.
Next turn invigorate for 0 mana, they gain 3 life, Jungle lion gets +4/+4 to become 6/5.
Berserk to make Jungle Lion 12/5.
Berserk to make Jungle Lion 24/5. ATTACK!!


Top 8 in large events? Sorry I'm on the West Coast those dont happen here.

raharu
08-13-2008, 08:40 PM
lol, if you get two of a four of, manage swing with a creature that has one toughness and not have it killed, take the risk of a FUCKING 4 FOR 1, and shove almost every card in your hand, sure, you can have that turn two kill, if you're obscenely lucky. Why don't you just rely on having Rouge Elephant, ESG, ESG/ forest x1, Forest, Giant Growth, and two Beserks every game? It's just about as possible, and just as plauseable (i.e. not very).

Also, I'd just like to say that Goblins is the only sucessful agro deck in the metagame because it can be explosive in the early game and still be consistant and have a strong board presence in the late late late late game, should it drag out that far, not nesicarily the explosiveness itself.

xsockmonkeyx
08-15-2008, 07:27 AM
Top 8 in large events? Sorry I'm on the West Coast those dont happen here.

We just had GP Hollywood and the DLD at the Batcave. There are large events, but they are just not very common.

Brizentine Empire
08-15-2008, 03:21 PM
Do you have a tournament report for Goblins sockmonkey? I'd be interested in seeing how it did.

Captain_Morgan
08-15-2008, 03:52 PM
Is Laccolith Rig any good against Goyf and the like, or is it too situational to be of any use?

Nihil Credo
08-15-2008, 04:16 PM
Is Laccolith Rig any good
No.

morgan_coke
08-15-2008, 07:46 PM
There's an interesting discussion in the format forum about whether mogg fanatic is still good or if its become overshadowed and should be replaced. I thought I would bring some suggestions for possible replacements to this thread.

1) Skirk Prospector
Pros: Eliminates Bridge from Below. Provides additional acceleration. Does sick tricks with SGC and Sharpshooter.
Cons: Brings nothing to combat but a chance for Piledriver to get bigger.

2) Tattermunge Maniac
Pros:2/1. Goblin.
Cons: Everything else about him.

3) Frenzied Goblin
Pros: Eliminates one blocker every turn. Can neutralize defensive Tarmogoyfs.
Cons: Doesn't deal with BfB.

4) Goblin Vandal
Pros: Costs 1, deals with artifacts.
Cons: Has to get though to hit artifacts, doesn't deal with BfB.

5) Goblin Sledder
Pros: Destroys combat math. Plays "goblin ravager" tricks. Kills BfB.
Cons: Needs lots of goblins to be effective.

I think of these, Frenzied is the most interesting since he neutralizes every blocking creature except manlands and mongoose. Mostly just lets you race opposing Tarmos. Just thought this would be a helpful suggestion for everyone. Except for possibly Vandal, none of these does anything significant for the combo matchup.

Nihil Credo
08-15-2008, 08:03 PM
I'll throw in Kill-Suit Cultist as an extra candidate. It's generally a worse Frenzied Goblin, but the self-sacrifice ability enables it to kill Bridges. I guess you might use the ability to Incinerate a Dreadnought or something, too.

xsockmonkeyx
08-15-2008, 08:43 PM
Do you have a tournament report for Goblins sockmonkey? I'd be interested in seeing how it did.

:/ I dont have any Piledrivers, so I haven't played in a tourney with it yet.

Brizentine Empire
08-16-2008, 03:19 AM
Are you guys joking with this? Mogg Fanatic is possibly the most under-rated creature in the deck.

1. His utility is amazing. He kills 2/2s for one mana while being a body, albeit small. It kills Bob instantly. He gives you the extra reach that you sometimes need.
2. Half of the creatures you name as replacements are supposed to help the Dread Return MU? Ummm, guys, Mogg Fanatic wins that MU. Simple as that. Goblins has the best MU against thats deck in the entire format, its nearly an auto-win. Oh, looks like you have two bridges in the yard, I guess I'll kill my fanatic now. Add to that E Explosives from the board, and if you've joined the 21st century, you run thoughtseize or cabal therapy in the mainboard. Hit the stinkweed imp or the LED, and you don't even have to worry about the combo. Is Ichorid really that feared in other Metas? In my meta it was popular for about a week before it got toasted all of the time from goblins and crypt.
3. If you want to start taking goblins out of the build, think about Piledriver. Is he the clincher most of the time? Yes. Is he the most feared? Probably. Is he a win-more card? Most Definately. Oh look, I'm in the late game against Threshold, with a Goyf staring me down, I have nothing left in play, and Oh! I draw piledriver. GG man, I drew my creature that's only good when I have board control. Now I'm not saying to take them out completely, but there is no reason to run four. Run less and matron them when you have your board control FTW. That's his purpose.

So stop trying to take out Mogg Fanatic when he wins the "oh so dreaded" Ichorid combo MU.

loop
08-16-2008, 05:24 AM
I'm guessing you lack experience in the match up if you think it's an auto-win...
Oh, and thoughtseizing Stinkweed Imp is tech :)

Maybe Piledriver isn't great when you draw it and your board is empty, but still, it's one of the gobs I'd like to have in multiples early on. What would you cut it for?

Brizentine Empire
08-17-2008, 02:27 AM
Sorry to the previous poster, didn't mean "Stinkweed imp," I meant "Putrid Imp." And in the many MUs that I've had against the deck, I have never lost. And in those MUs, Mogg fanatic has won me that most of the time. Now, if they get a Leyline of the Void on turn 0, then I have to see a grip before they win, which can be tough. But the chances of them adding four dead cards to the deck, getting one of them in their opening hand, and still having the nuts kill, twice in a row (assuming we win the first game), is quite low.

Brizentine Empire
08-17-2008, 02:32 AM
And about Driver, that's just the thing, there aren't enough viable goblins to put into the deck, so most people still run four drivers. Its a bad cylcle, cause if you add more non-goblins, like thoughtseize and whatnot, you hurt your ringleaders and have less tricks with your vials, but there aren't enough good goblins. If you're looking to lower the driver count, possibly more warren weirdings if you run black? It's quite amazing. Otherwise we don't have many options. Haha maybe Tarmogoyf, just because we all know it'd probly be sick, just like in every other deck in the format.

Ectoplasm
08-17-2008, 01:22 PM
What's wrong with Bloodmark Mentor? Just imagine attacking with 2 pileys, your opponent wants to trade both his mongeese for it, and vialing the mentor into play. Should make the 10000/2 piledrivers alot more useful I think?
You could cut 1 piledriver if you really don't like them and just tutor up a mentor and play him the normal way.

He'll most likely get nuked the second he hits the board but then again, doesn't every good goblin get nuked? I'm almost finished with my own rgb goblindeck and I'm going to give this guy a try.

Brizentine Empire
08-18-2008, 03:41 PM
Yeah, I could see him getting play in more Goblin builds, especially in the Jitte-heavy MUs, like Faerie Stompy and some Mono-Black builds. However, I think he could be a one-of in the board, where you bring him in when you need him and matron for him. However, I'd like to hear how some playtesting turns out.

Ectoplasm
08-18-2008, 07:01 PM
I'll get my new stuff next monday (hopefully) and I hope to get some playtesting in that night, I'll let you know what happened. In the meantime, anyone who has actually tried him already?

Dark_Cynic87
08-19-2008, 07:59 AM
Can't Earwig Squad help the Ichorid matchup? I realize it's oftentimes difficult to get him down turn 2 (the idea would be Lackey turn 1, swing turn 2 after your land-drop, lackeying in Warchief and playing Squad for 1B via it's Prowl with Warchief's help) but when you do you can grab out their Dread Returns/FKZ/Narcs/whatever they are needing. This would make them have to go Ichorid Beatz and you can smoke that easy. Paired with a full set of Fanatics and a few Warren Wierdings that in a pinch can be targetted right at a goblin of your own for 2x vanilla gobbos to get rid of bridges, I'd say that you can come up with SOMETHING if you go first. Games two and three seem more difficult.

However, don't listen to me, I just started playing goblins...a teammate of mine plays Ichorid exclusively, so playtesting will be easy for me. I'll have ample time to learn how to beat it consistantly. I'll update/report.

Pce,

--DC

Shriekmaw
08-20-2008, 12:27 PM
If anyone is interested in a good goblin build, then simply look at the Top 16 decklists at the 1,000 Cash Legacy tournament that was held in Syracuse last month. The sideboard will change depending on your local meta, but I wouldn't change anything in the main deck list.

I wouldn't fool around with the deck too much, because if it works, why change it?

Let me know if you have specific questions/concerns about the deck.

kaasblokje
08-21-2008, 04:41 AM
If anyone is interested in a good goblin build, then simply look at the Top 16 decklists at the 1,000 Cash Legacy tournament that was held in Syracuse last month. The sideboard will change depending on your local meta, but I wouldn't change anything in the main deck list.

I wouldn't fool around with the deck too much, because if it works, why change it?

Let me know if you have specific questions/concerns about the deck.

23 Lands:
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
37 Spells and dudes:

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Sideboard (15):

2 Enginered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void


there are 24 lands instead of 23 , i play 1 Gempalm Incinerator less

Shriekmaw
08-21-2008, 09:53 AM
23 Lands:
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
37 Spells and dudes:

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Sideboard (15):

2 Enginered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void


there are 24 lands instead of 23 , i play 1 Gempalm Incinerator less

There should be only 3 Taigas, it was a misprint in the decklist. I run 23 land, but all the other cards are correct.

The only cards that are consistent in the sideboard are 2 Engineered Explosives, 3 krosan grips, 4 Chalice of the Void. The rest depends on your metagame.

Brizentine Empire
08-21-2008, 02:50 PM
I support more warren weirdings than incinerators, warren weirding will always kill, and its just amazing in the format right now. Also, in my playtesting, try out thereapies or thoughtseizes mainboard. They are also very, very good. You could do without sharpshooter, a seige-gang, and a fanatic.

Dark_Cynic87
08-21-2008, 03:02 PM
So you guys don't like Earwig Squad?! It's been GOLDEN for me. I think I'm gonna drop Therapies into the maindeck to coincide with them somehow. I beat storm combo a couple times with them. Hit both of their Tendrils with it turn 2 (Turn 1 lackey, turn 2 swing dropping in Warchief to play Squad for 1B). It's a long shot, but if I can get therapies squeezed in it should be even better. Therapies can hit clasms and what-not. Maybe they should just stay in the board...I'm really not sure what to do, but I know they help.

I'm sick of looking at Incinerators in my hand staring down a 3/3 Goose whose controller just 'Clasmed. I'm going for all Wierdings. I MIGHT save room for 1x Incinerator, but so far he has suxored.

Why would you run 4x Fanatic and only 3x Piledriver? That seems stupid to me. I'm relatively new to the deck, though, and would like to hear the argument that makes this a good choice.

Pce,

--DC

Shriekmaw
08-21-2008, 04:48 PM
.

Why would you run 4x Fanatic and only 3x Piledriver? That seems stupid to me. I'm relatively new to the deck, though, and would like to hear the argument that makes this a good choice.




First of all, Mogg Fanatic is one of the better goblins that you actually want. I've won so many games with fanatic, I would never run less than 4. The piledrivers got cut to 3 with the addition of black to the deck. I had to make room for the 1 wort and 2 weirdings. Plus, piledriver is the weakest goblin in the deck, but still good enough to play but not a 4 of anymore.

Warren Wierding is good, but I still like incinerator b/c of the ability to kill a creature without having to worry about a counterspell or counterbalance. I could see the 3 weirding/2 incinerator spilit, but thats a metagame call.

I'm staying with the 1 sharpshooter and 1 tin street hooligan because they are amazing at times. Having 5 removal spells is more than enough and I can't justify cutting any cards in the main deck that I currently play for cabal therapy.

Your concern should not be with combo (storm), you just lose to it. Once in awhile you get lucky with your sideboard and win a match, but it is very rare.

Earwing Squad and Cabal Therapy in the main deck just sucks, don't run them. It could be okay in your local meta, but you will get steamrolled in a bigger legacy event b/c they are sub par cards to play.

I've played this deck for a long time and I know what works and what doesn't.

slobad23
08-22-2008, 04:13 AM
I've played this deck for a long time and I know what works and what doesn't.

I don't think comments like that are really helpful - i have also played this deck for a long time and feel that cabal therapies would be a nice addition to the main deck...

well that is a lie, but my point is that meta's dictate what you should and should not run in the main of any decklist. you can't just say "i know all about it and you know nothing, do what i say" - opinions, playstyles (to a degree) and metas are an important part of card choice decisions.

that was jus classic Kadaj just there - obviously this isn't an exact quote, but close enough -

"your list isn't mono blue control because it doesn't look exactly like my list - i would cut a, b and c to add x, y and z - that leaves you with a deck that looks just like mine, which is the true, ONLY version of mono blue control there is" - haha

(nothing but love for you really kadaj, i think the work you have put into MUC has been amazing, keep it up)

what was i talking about? oh i've completely lost track of my 'thoughts'

:note: played several games last night where rishadan port saved my backside on more than one occassion - i just cant see myself cutting any of them any time soon!

kidsmokin
08-22-2008, 10:33 AM
Has anyone ever tried running Rbw Gobs to any success? As in, you can basically run Swords and Warren Weirding for removal, basically allowing you to disable the majority threat...you get the Disenchants for trouble artifacts and enchantments, and still get the Therapies vs. combo. Also, Vindicate out the side would be hilariously awesome. Or is the Split Second on Grip that important that G is the more viable option than W?

Never been a Gobs player, just been doing to some research and this question came up. If Rbw Gobs is actually good maybe I'll start playing Gobs, always liked the little dudes.

Shriekmaw
08-22-2008, 10:58 AM
I don't think comments like that are really helpful - i have also played this deck for a long time and feel that cabal therapies would be a nice addition to the main deck...





The reason I state that I've not only played the deck for a very long time, but have also put up good results. A lot of people on the source don't understand why some things work in a particular deck and some don't. I'm not saying cabal therapy doesn't work well, but it should not be a main deck card in my opinion.

I could see the card in the sideboard and thats fine. Goblins is an aggro deck with should consist of creatures to bring your opponents life total to zero as quickly as possible. Cabal Therapy goes against this very principle, especially in a format where speed wins a lot of times.

In a three color goblin deck, I think rishadan port is just terrible because you need both green and black mana. By adding additional cards that produce colorless mana just leads to more instability with the deck. If I just ran a 2 color version, then I would play somewhere between 2-3 rishadan ports in the deck.

I would however play cabal therapy over Earwing Squad, that card should not even see the light of day in legacy goblins. Just terrible.

Dark_Cynic87
08-22-2008, 03:46 PM
I've been thinking about my manabase, and it seems that Ports would be nice. I've been thinking about something like:

-1x Taiga (I run 2, so I'd go down to a singleton)
-1x Wasteland (puts me down to 3)

+2x Rishadan Port

Is 2x enough? How many is optimal?

Can I at least have an explanation as to why Earwig Squad isn't good in your opinion, Nick?

Pce,

--DC

Mental
08-22-2008, 04:20 PM
I've been thinking about my manabase, and it seems that Ports would be nice. I've been thinking about something like:

-1x Taiga (I run 2, so I'd go down to a singleton)
-1x Wasteland (puts me down to 3)

+2x Rishadan Port

Is 2x enough? How many is optimal?

Can I at least have an explanation as to why Earwig Squad isn't good in your opinion, Nick?

Pce,

--DC

Wasteland is always going to be better than port...it's a much smaller mana investment, and they can still get off instants through Port. Port should function as additional wastelands if you play them, not as replacements.

Shriekmaw
08-22-2008, 04:32 PM
I've been thinking about my manabase, and it seems that Ports would be nice. I've been thinking about something like:

-1x Taiga (I run 2, so I'd go down to a singleton)
-1x Wasteland (puts me down to 3)

+2x Rishadan Port

Is 2x enough? How many is optimal?

Can I at least have an explanation as to why Earwig Squad isn't good in your opinion, Nick?

Pce,

--DC

I would not recommend cutting wasteland at all, its necessary to be a 4 of. If you really want want then I wouldn't play tin street main and you can go down to 2 taigas and 3 badlands for 2 ports. It just makes your mana base a little more shaky, more so after game 1.

Earwing Squad doesn't do enough for the 3 mana investment. A lot of times, you would rather be playing other goblins for 3 mana than Squad. Him being a 5/3 isn't enough in my opinion to consider playing him. Squad is not an reliable answer to combo and you have to have a creature deal damage in order to pay the prowl cost. It just seems to risky for me.

Some people don't like the 1 tin street or sharpshooter main, but they have been amazing at times and I would not cut them at all. It's very hard for me to cut anything in the deck for cards I don't really like in squad or therapy main deck.

Some people may agrue that they play sqaud and therapy b/c there is a lot of combo in your meta. If's thats the case, they I probably wouldn't want to play goblins b/c you can't consistenly beat combo and watering down the deck is not a good idea.

I hope this explanation helps.

Brizentine Empire
08-22-2008, 05:07 PM
As a fellow Gobs player of a very long time, I've tested many decklists, and Nikrit, I agree with you to an extent. I don't believe Earwig Squad is a viable MB card, but I play one in the SB for MUs such as combo(and no, its not very useful with one in the SB for this MU), Threshold, and Enchantress/Solitaire. In my opinion, Threshold was and still is the most popular and consistent deck that there is, and is highly played in my meta. I play 4 mainboard Thoughtseize and 4 mainboard Warren Weirding because they fix this MU. I played in the GP Indy Side Event with over 100 players, and went 2-0 against Thresh (a UGW and a UGB build). Thoughtseize can discard a Goyf, and that is crucial. A tramogoyf with protection, i.e. counterspells or removal, beats Goblins single-handedly. They counter your key Gobs and turn it sideways for the win, simple as that. So, in my opinion, thoughtseize, or therapy, is a viable option for THESE reasons, not against combo.

lunar_eternal_blue
08-24-2008, 05:38 PM
Goblins needs an answer for Tarmogoyf, not just for thresh, but every other deck in the format. Thoughtseize/Therapy and Warren Weirding are the best ways that I know of for them to deal with them. Earwig Squad can help too but I am not a huge fan of him, but I have seem him be useful. If anyone can come up with a better answer for goyf, please let me know.

By the way, if you want a better combo matchup, run chalice in the SB. In fact, run chalice anyway since it is amazing against thresh too. I don't know why so many people are against this card, but it is everywhere in my meta.

GreenOne
08-24-2008, 07:59 PM
If anyone can come up with a better answer for goyf, please let me know.


There are better answers than Thoughtseize if your only concern is Goyf. You can play Snuff Out (out of CB range and free, so undazeable) or EE or Perish, or even smother/edict.

lunar_eternal_blue
08-24-2008, 09:49 PM
There are better answers than Thoughtseize if your only concern is Goyf. You can play Snuff Out (out of CB range and free, so undazeable) or EE or Perish, or even smother/edict.

Well, actually, my philosophy on thoughtseize is to run them mainboard when you don't know what your going to be playing against since it is a versatile and almost always useful card. Then, I board them out for more specific answers games 2 and 3 if I have them (in the case of Tarmogoyf, I have E. Explosives). I also leave them in against decks packing E. Plague (which is less nowadays) and pyroclasm, as I want as much to fight against those as possible, even if it means siding out a few goblins.

Also, I hope we have an agreement that Warren Weirding IS the best answer goblins has for goyf. Sure it pumps future goyfs, which sucks, but edict has always been good and now goblins has one that it can grab with matron (extremely important), goes into the hand with ringleader, costs one mana with warchief out, and can be recurred with Wort.

I don't know about the other cards you mentioned, but I could see smother taking thoughtseize's spot in a meta game dominated by aggro. I still prefer thoughtseize though.

Citrus-God
08-25-2008, 10:41 AM
The tech I'm about to show all of you may surprise you all. The approach I made with the deck is very simple; I want to bait until I can resolve a bomb. Of course, this only applies post-board. Right now, I am tampering with a build that enables this maindeck card. The maindeck card I am running is Price of Progress. I can't believe this has been overlooked; it wins so many games where you're destined to lose. I won games against Landstill, Thresh, Stax, Aggro Loam, 43 Land, and so many other things. I also believe this was why Boros Deck Wins Top 8ed at Worlds. This may also be why Julien Nuijten did well in the Legacy portion at Worlds, as well as why Jon Sonne almost went undefeated in his swiss rounds at GP Philly. We should rediscover this old tech and put it to good use.

lunar_eternal_blue
08-25-2008, 12:00 PM
It's funny that you mention price of progress because I just recently discovered it and have been trying to convince people that it could be really good in goblins. It originally started as a way to win against 43-land, which was always nearly impossible. I then realized that it was good in many matchups. Against control decks, Vexing Shusher could help them resolve and win the game out of nowhere. I even considered it mainboard, but I don't know what I would take out, so it will probably stay in the sideboard. The problem against most decks (not 43-land though) is that they usually fetch basics because of wastelands anyway, and once they see Price of Progress, they will continue to grab them. It would still be funny to see opponents afraid to play dual lands game 3 after boarding Price of Progress back out.

GreenOne
08-25-2008, 12:02 PM
I was playing PoP back in the days when MonoRed Gobbos was good. It was great in fightning control and 2x plague. However, isn't doing it too much dmg to ourselves in 3c builds?

Citrus-God
08-25-2008, 12:10 PM
It's funny that you mention price of progress because I just recently discovered it and have been trying to convince people that it could be really good in goblins. It originally started as a way to win against 43-land, which was always nearly impossible. I then realized that it was good in many matchups. Against control decks, Vexing Shusher could help them resolve and win the game out of nowhere. I even considered it mainboard, but I don't know what I would take out, so it will probably stay in the sideboard. The problem against most decks (not 43-land though) is that they usually fetch basics because of wastelands anyway, and once they see Price of Progress, they will continue to grab them. It would still be funny to see opponents afraid to play dual lands game 3 after boarding Price of Progress back out.

Yes, but if they fetch out basics, then they're falling into Rishadan Port mana screwing them. I recall this happening in many accounts against RGb SA. If they choose to fetch non-basics early, they risk being within PoP range. Also, if decks like Thresh, Landstill, and other random decks begin to start fetching out basics early, then they'll eventually draw into TONS of non-basic lands and from there they either elect playing them to operate flexibly or they risk being within PoP range. Also, if they see it Game 1, you have probably won and you can make plays where you can draw a game against them/win and continue to do the same game 3.


@GreenOne: Why would you go 3c? You could still remain as 1-2 colors because that way when you do fetch out basics, you really dont need duals until you have to cast something like Grip if you're running Green or Wort/Weirding if you're running Black. Also, intentionally playing PoP just to create a suicide situation just to draw with the opponent as you're about to lose is tech. If you won game 1, you can attempt to do this Games 2 and 3.

Malchar
08-25-2008, 06:36 PM
this might not be that helpful but you guys should all try working with earwig squad if you haven't. i use them maindeck and it's great because it works against any deck. against thresh or other control decks, simply take out three of their threats. most of the decks that are bad for goblins - hard control and combo - will fall apart once you take out a few key cards. one of the funnier plays that i did once was to remove basic land after playing having used multiple wastelands early. it might seem odd but the opponent had serious mana problems to begin with and no other real threats. anyway, i would really suggest at least trying the card.

thefreakaccident
08-25-2008, 07:54 PM
I saw something at a tournament like two weeks ago, and it seemed pretty techy.



http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=48390


I think it could in theory be decent against thresholdesuqe decks, where their only way to target creatures with anything is to swords them...


This deck also has an overwhelming amount of ways to target crits, so it could be interesting....


I had never even heard of the card before then, so I do not have an opinion on it either way...

EDIT: Sorry about that...

Fractured Loyalty 1R

Enchant creature


Whenever enchanted creature is targeted by a spell or ability, the controller of the spell or ability may take control of enchanted creature.

THEchubbymuffin
08-25-2008, 08:03 PM
I saw something at a tournament like two weeks ago, and it seemed pretty techy.



http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=48390


I think it could in theory be decent against thresholdesuqe decks, where their only way to target creatures with anything is to swords them...


This deck also has an overwhelming amount of ways to target crits, so it could be interesting....


I had never even heard of the card before then, so I do not have an opinion on it either way...
I followed the link but it's not working. What is it?

Brizentine Empire
08-25-2008, 10:18 PM
Well fractured loyalty might be interesting if

1. It's mana cost wasn't at two: "Thresholdesque" decks all run counter-top"
and
2. You can't enchant or target Mongoose, one of the two creatures in the deck.
It requires two cards to be able to control creatures. Goblins should have other answers, such as Warren Weirding.

Also, to the PoP idea, I believe it sounds amazing but would perform less than expected. It will greatly balance the 43/42land.dec MU, but that's assuming you have two mana to use it with (yes, it sounds crazy but against a deck with 3-4 ports and 3-4 wastelands it can be hard). I think it will also be incredibly good against Aggro Loam, Enchantress/Solitaire and Astral Slide, but those are only in certain metas. Against Threshold, however, it will be very hard to get around Counterbalance, and they will counter it if they have one. Overall, I think it would be good in spots, and might merit two SB slots with testing.

thefreakaccident
08-26-2008, 02:12 AM
I saw it in a mono-red variant, which can explain the SB slot (red doesn't have many outs to a 4/5-5/6 goyf).

GreenOne
08-26-2008, 02:38 AM
I saw it in a mono-red variant, which can explain the SB slot (red doesn't have many outs to a 4/5-5/6 goyf).

It's a good idea, but I'd play the 6/1 evoke guy before it.

Dark_Cynic87
08-26-2008, 03:37 PM
the 6/1 evoker? That would be funny against Swan Thresh...

How many basics are considered to be mandatory for the list? I run 5x. Is that at all able to be dropped? I'm not a big fan of Tinkerer in the list, but still want a singleton to hit artifacts game 1. I guess going down to 1x Taiga isn't the right call. My land looks like this right now:

LAND: 22
5x Mountain
4x Mire
4x Foothills
4x Wastes
3x Badlands
2x Taiga

What would be dropped for 2x Port? I'm thinking you will say 2x Mountains or 1x Mountain 1x Badlands?

MD only has 1x Hooligan, and SB has 2x EE, 3x Therapy, 3x Grip for reference to the duals.

Thx,

--DC

Dino
08-26-2008, 05:32 PM
Here is my list that i currently run: Rgb

Main:
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

4 AEther Vial
3 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Side:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin King
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip

I finally made the switch from r/w to rgb, and I think that it is far superior. The weirdings are able to kill mongoose and goyf with more ease than swords used to. However, I do miss Price of Progress. When I played with the white splash I was able to fetch for far less duals and since I'm playing ports and wastelands in my current build casting PoP and getting a large advantage usually doesn't happen that often, especially since a lot of people fetch out their basics when playing against goblins to begin with.

Shriekmaw
08-27-2008, 12:21 PM
Here is my list that i currently run: Rgb

Main:
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

4 AEther Vial
3 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Side:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin King
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip

I finally made the switch from r/w to rgb, and I think that it is far superior. The weirdings are able to kill mongoose and goyf with more ease than swords used to. However, I do miss Price of Progress. When I played with the white splash I was able to fetch for far less duals and since I'm playing ports and wastelands in my current build casting PoP and getting a large advantage usually doesn't happen that often, especially since a lot of people fetch out their basics when playing against goblins to begin with.

I would recommend cutting the kiki-jiki and something else for 2 additional lands. Your only running 21 lands right now with 6 of them producing colorless mana, very risky. I run 23 lands in the deck and I couldn't see myself running anything less.

The board is fine, I run Chalice of the Void because I have to deal with combo and it helps a lot more than cabal therapy in my opinion.

Ectoplasm
08-27-2008, 04:01 PM
Since we're sharing lists, here is mine too, rgb goblins!

Main:
4x Mountain
3x Badlands
3x Taiga
4x Wasteland
2x Rishadan port (might consider cutting these but they haven't been problematic yet)
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills (Running only 6 fetch to avoid thinning too much...)

4x Aether Vial
3x Warren Weirding

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Mogg Fanatic
1x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Bloodmark Mentor
1x Tin Street Hooligan
2x Siege-gang Commander

Side (so far, changing heavily):
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Krosan Grip
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Earwig Squad

I REALLY like the earwig squad on side, it helps destroy slow decks like the rock by ripping out their boardcontrol turning an already uneven matchup into a crushing and they are pretty decent counter-hate against stuff like E plague/explosives/clasm, the rest seems pretty standard even though I'm still switching things around. The chalices aren't doing alot, they're useful to stop cantrips and plows (and the occasional BeB that gets boarded in as well) so it seems useful enough.

I really like the bloodmark mentor as well, giving you a big edge against other aggrodecks that you would normally trade creatures against to gain boardcontrol, and vialing it in after blockers is just gold.

Flommie
08-27-2008, 04:09 PM
I really like ya deck!

Dark_Cynic87
08-28-2008, 10:06 AM
I like the Squad in the board. I really think it should be somewhere, and 1 or 2 in the board will suffice. Tutorable EE/Deed removal could be awesome paired with Discard and Grip. I know you have the option of Needle, but against stuff that runs EE/Deed, they have counters and/or Grip and Putrefy, and even Vindicate, so this is an extremely viable proactive solution in my opinion.

Also, is 2 the right number for ports, or is 3? I can't be sure, but I really have been liking them in testing. 2 seems like crap, but I guess maybe not...

Would Ghost Quarter be better than Port, or would that be worse? Metagame call? Wastelands 5 and 6 doesn't seem horrible, and neither does a possible 2-of Strip Mine...

Pce,

--DC

The Wes
08-28-2008, 10:14 AM
I've always used ports to keep someone off a certrain color long enough to crush them. I don't think ghost quarter fills the same role since for the most part they'll still get the color they need. Perhaps its a meta game call.

I'm a TROLL
08-28-2008, 04:37 PM
As long as we are sharing lists, I've been wokring on this:

2 Seige Gang Commandeer
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin MATRON
4 Goblin Warchef
4 Goblin piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Stand Still
4 Brainstorn
4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 AEther Vile
4 Wastland
6 Fetch
4 Volcanic island
4 Steem Vents

Beeing able to protect you're stuff makes life A LOT easier. The disruptions using LD in stifle and wasteland plus counters back-up in Force, daze, and even Stilfe can really be amazing.

Every wonce in a while you get bad draws like Aether vile, all blue cards and like a Goblin Matron, but usually you smash the faces with ether Goblin Lackies and/or aether viale.

I'd say that first turn vile/lackey back by Standstill is the best draw you can hope for especially backed by Forces and Dazes. Just getting those two in combonation I've never lost a game!

Ran this last week in the local tourney. Here is real quick tourney report:

Round 1

Angel Stax (2-0). Both games I get bad starts but TONS of land. All I had to do was get ether a Goblin Matron or Seige Gang Commandeer and burn him out. He never was able to draw Exaulted Angel and thus had no game at all.

Round 2

Burn! (2-1)
Real close match. I got first turn Golbin Lackey game one backed by Force of Will dropping Seige Gang Commandder = gg. Game two my deck gave up as I couldn't draw one red source after a mull to four! Game three I go turn one Aether vile followed by Standstills on turns 2 and 3. I Force twice and Dae twice then proceed to wreck himm via Goblin Warchef followed by double Piledriver. He burned me down to only 2 life. Without double Force of Will I lose easily.

Round 3

Threshold U/G/W (2-0)
Absolutely utterly dust 'em. I go turn one Goblin lackey having three Dazes opening hand followed by Goblin Ringleader and also two stifles! I Ringlead into teh nutz! I get double Ringleader, the Warchef, and a Pialdriver and go to town. He tries to use fetchlands but utterly fail when I stifle both times. His last nonbasic gets wastelanded. Even if he magically stopped my army he showed me what he drew (a Ponder) and I just drew Standstill. What do you think is better?

Semifinals

Burn! Again! (2-0)
The guy never shows up to the match. I think he assumed he was out and left!

Finals

Red Thresh (2-1)
Game one he goes nuts countering all my spells and gets an early Goyf. I mean anyone can win when they get turn two Goyf going first followed by two Daze and two Force. Geezes! He mentions between games that he made a last minute decision to not have pyroclasm. Yes! Game two I go turn one Lackey. He plows. I go turn two lackey lackey. He has two Force of Will. Turn three I got Goblin Warchef. He dazes. Turn four I go Ringleader = win. I proceed to get Warchef and two piledrivers. By now I saved the Force of will I had and draw into another. His only answer a Mongoose and a Magus of the Moon. Fail. Game three he mulls to five and keeps going turn one mongoose. I Force of Will. I then go Standstill afterward he Ponders into nothing. I draw into two more Standstills and annhilate him on pure card advantage. I just play some goblins and win as he can't find his threats.

Dark_Cynic87
09-03-2008, 02:07 PM
Threat Density >>> Protection and draw. RU Goblins has been thoroughly discussed and dismissed, especially the Landstill versions. People keep trying, but they never come up with anything new, nor anything that would make it worth playing over Rgb Goblins. Goblins with Standstill in theory doesn't even feel synergistic as dropping multiple goblins a turn is what is necessary to win in any acceptable amount of time--something an active standstill hinders. I know we run 8x alternate ways of getting creatures into play, but for the most part, it won't play accordingly. It's my opinion that Standstill would be tantamount to FoW fodder 85-90 percent of the time. Also, it does next to nothing against control (Landstill, aggro loam, etc.). In fact, Landstill sides out Standstill in the mirror. If it's not good against landstill, I don't see the point. You have good matchups vs. the only things Standstill is theoretically good against, making it, in my opinion, win-more.

Draw as a whole in goblins just makes it more mana intensive. Let's think. Goblins plan = Throwing creatures @ a player. We run matrons and ringleaders to keep the threat density level at it's peak, wanting a win on turn 4, turn 5. The deckspace could be used for creatures instead, getting you exactly what you are trying to draw into in the first place with blue.

Honestly, white makes better sense than blue does.

Btw, your spelling could use a little work...Just sayin'...

Pce,

--DC

Serbitar
09-03-2008, 03:18 PM
Also note how bad Ringleader is in that deck with a goblin count of merely 20.

Brizentine Empire
09-03-2008, 03:36 PM
I agree wholesale with dark cynic. I believe that rgb gobs and even the RW builds are superior.

asdljas
09-03-2008, 04:32 PM
I think that the Ru Goblin thread should be started and put in the developmental forum. Obviously, there are established DTBs in Rg and Rbg Goblins that should be discussed here, without interruption from the blue builds.

Maybe one of the moderators could fix that for us.

On topic, how do we see the future of Goblins in the new meta of Goyf Sligh, Dreadstill, Landstill, Painter, and Thresh?

Dark_Cynic87
09-04-2008, 07:24 AM
Painter is Needle-able, Thresh is favorable (yeah, favorable), I haven't had much testing against landstill nor have I played against Dreadstill, but I know Dreadnought dies to Wierding nicely. I have no experience against Goyf Sligh either.

RU Gobs will never leave the developmental forums. Why do people constantly and consistantly ignore facts proven time and again by playtesting and logic? Whatever.

And yeah, although I'm pretty new to the goblin archetype, I think I'm catching on nicely. I win a lot with it. :cool:

Pce,

--DC

chokin
09-04-2008, 03:44 PM
Painter is Needle-able, Thresh is favorable (yeah, favorable), I haven't had much testing against landstill nor have I played against Dreadstill, but I know Dreadnought dies to Wierding nicely. I have no experience against Goyf Sligh either.

RU Gobs will never leave the developmental forums. Why do people constantly and consistantly ignore facts proven time and again by playtesting and logic? Whatever.

And yeah, although I'm pretty new to the goblin archetype, I think I'm catching on nicely. I win a lot with it. :cool:

Pce,

--DC

Goyf Sligh is a bitch without Chalice IMO. Some people use Thorn, but I think Chalice is MUCH more effective.

Game one plays out like: you play a goblin, they burn it, repeat til death. Game two should be like: you with early Chalice and then eat their threats alive or get Chalice@1+2 and lock them out(until/unless they Grip one or Shattering Spree it)

Brizentine Empire
09-06-2008, 01:39 AM
In my meta, there is actually both dreadstill and painter combo. The playtesting against these MUs are as follows:

Painter: Very tough. I know the popular builds, at least here on the source, are mono-red or RU, and they run imperial tutor. The guy who plays at my card shop runs a 3-color splash (I know, it sounds horrible) and has actually won with it consistently. He plays counter-top, counterspells, tarmogoyf, blue blasts, stuff like that. Its very tough to get a spell through, and he has trinket mages and wordly tutor I believe? to get out his pieces. Post board is tough cause he brings in pyroclasm and such. He's beaten me in four of the five games we've played, as I can never resolve the removal for the combo pieces, and even if I do, theres academy ruins in there too. Overall, at least against this build, its 40/60 at best.

Dreadstill: The player at my shop plays UW, so no goyfs. This MU is pretty good, since you mainly have one threat to worry about (he plays wake thrasher and factories, but both are easily overrun). Too many ways to beat his 'nought, especially post-board, if you bring in grips and e-explosives.

So thats what I have for you guys. I know these two builds aren't the ones played most successfully, at least as reported on the source, but I do believe that the painter player has a guild build going, as it has ways to deal with lots of hate. Who knows, I haven't looked at the painter thread much recently, so maybe thats what they're doing now too.

The Legacy Weapon
09-12-2008, 08:32 PM
What do you guys think about Dragon Fodder? I think it would really help out in certain situations like ramping up a Piledriver or recovering from a sweeper. It's gotta be worth testing at least. It sucks that it's not as good as some of the Lorwyn tech seeing as Matron and Ringleader can't see it. That may be it's downfall.

kicks_422
09-12-2008, 09:03 PM
I'd rather play Mogg War Marshal instead. And I won't play Mogg War Marshal, so...

But I love the flavor on Dragon Fodder though. Absolutely hilarious.

Ectoplasm
09-13-2008, 06:42 AM
In my meta, there is actually both dreadstill and painter combo. The playtesting against these MUs are as follows:

Painter: Very tough. I know the popular builds, at least here on the source, are mono-red or RU, and they run imperial tutor. The guy who plays at my card shop runs a 3-color splash (I know, it sounds horrible) and has actually won with it consistently. He plays counter-top, counterspells, tarmogoyf, blue blasts, stuff like that. Its very tough to get a spell through, and he has trinket mages and wordly tutor I believe? to get out his pieces. Post board is tough cause he brings in pyroclasm and such. He's beaten me in four of the five games we've played, as I can never resolve the removal for the combo pieces, and even if I do, theres academy ruins in there too. Overall, at least against this build, its 40/60 at best.

Dreadstill: The player at my shop plays UW, so no goyfs. This MU is pretty good, since you mainly have one threat to worry about (he plays wake thrasher and factories, but both are easily overrun). Too many ways to beat his 'nought, especially post-board, if you bring in grips and e-explosives.

So thats what I have for you guys. I know these two builds aren't the ones played most successfully, at least as reported on the source, but I do believe that the painter player has a guild build going, as it has ways to deal with lots of hate. Who knows, I haven't looked at the painter thread much recently, so maybe thats what they're doing now too.

I personally love playing against painter decks, because (unlike the one your friend is running) most of them run REB, jaya ballard etc, and yell 'blue' as soon as the painter hits the board, which results in all matrons fetching immortal and unblockable piledrivers :) One time the guy I played again yelled red, purely out of fear for piledrivers, and invalidated half of his deck.
It can get tough if you don't draw into piledrivers fast enough though and they all get countered but when you include matrons in the mix it's not hard to get one or two down early enough.

rockout
09-20-2008, 10:22 PM
If Piledriver is being dropped to a 3-of because of "win more" status, then why not just run matron, warchief, lackey, and ringleader as a 3-of?

Wait, all those cards win games. As a landstill player, I'm excited that anyone is willing to drop piledriver to a 3-of, so it's one less piledriver I have to answer.

Ectoplasm
09-21-2008, 06:27 AM
I personally run 4 piledrivers, because I use a single bloodmark mentor to support them with so it would seem like madness to run less than 4.

To each his own I guess, but this mentor has proven himself time and time again, turning an even matchup into an unfair one.

Shriekmaw
09-22-2008, 02:00 PM
I personally run 4 piledrivers, because I use a single bloodmark mentor to support them with so it would seem like madness to run less than 4.

To each his own I guess, but this mentor has proven himself time and time again, turning an even matchup into an unfair one.


First of all, I don't believe cutting piledriver down to 3 is really all that bad. You have to find room for removal and when they have us warren wierding the cut to 3 was made in my list. This gave me the option of running 5 removal spells (any combo of incinerator/wierding).

It is also very important to keep the land base at 23, I really can't state that enough. You need to be able to hit 4 mana consistenly.

I guess, I could free up 2 slots by cutting 1 sharpshooter and 1 tin street hooligan, but they keep on proving to be very good 1 of's.

We already stated that piledriver is the weakest goblin in the deck, so that is why it would be the first cut in the deck.

kicks_422
09-22-2008, 07:00 PM
Isn't anyone playing Pithing Needles out of the SB? That card just solves so many problems for the deck. My SB is:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Tacosnape
09-24-2008, 09:38 AM
Isn't anyone playing Pithing Needles out of the SB? That card just solves so many problems for the deck. My SB is:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

I think Needle tends to lose ground to builds packing Grip, though I've been known to run a full playset of both Needles and Grips in R/G builds. My R/B Board runs Needle, though. It looks like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyrokinesis/Thoughtseize, depending on metagame.

Dino
09-24-2008, 06:40 PM
What are you afraid of that you would need to board in Pithing Needle?

kicks_422
09-24-2008, 07:10 PM
I was thinking mainly Jitte and Deed. Additionally, Grindstone, SoFI, Factory, blue fetchlands, SDT, Shackles, Ravager, Belcher, etc.

Tacosnape
09-24-2008, 11:56 PM
What are you afraid of that you would need to board in Pithing Needle?

Grindstone? Goblin Charbelcher? Umezawa's Jitte? Survival of the Fittest? Nomads En-Kor? Pernicious Deed? Psychatog?

Pithing Needle shines because it's amazing against random janky shit that might kill you otherwise. That and being one of the easiest cards to cast in the game. You aren't obligated to board it in every time you see a card you can use it against. You just have to make your best guess as to whether it's better than certain other cards in your deck for the match.

J.V.
09-25-2008, 12:05 AM
You missed Pernicious Deed probably the scariest needleable card next to Jitte.

sligh16
09-25-2008, 12:24 AM
hi, i'm new here, and love the goblin deck.

in the maindeck, i think that goblins really need some more cards to deal with creatures. Tarmogoyfs, dreadnoughts, crushers, terravores, they are all big fatties for few mana, and goblins really cant do anything against but outnumber them. Sadly, numbers many times dont really make the difference, so i started to play 4 warren wierdings and 4 snuff out. Weirding is great against threshold and aggro loam, and against dreadnoughts it really puts the match in the "fair" state. But, nothing is perfect, and many times they will counter your weirding with a spell snare or a fow. So, here comes snuff out. Yes, i know its not a goblin card, but hell, its GREAT in the practice. Its a free killer!!, they cant countertop it, no spell snares for it, the only threat is fow. I think Gempalm incinerator cant handle the real threats of the post-tarmo era, so i cutted them out. And, (i know i can sound like a betrayer) i cutted the fanatics. Fanatics are great against ichorid and confidants, but both weirding and snuff out can help you in the first match, and post-boards just start with leylines or tormods.

i have tested against threshold, dreadstill, aggro loam, and painters, and i just seem satisfied with the results.

Long life to goblins!!!!

bye!!

Ectoplasm
09-25-2008, 12:04 PM
I prefer simply boarding in an earwig squad to handle random scary sweeper shit, you can just fetch it and rip out 3 explosives or deeds without a chance of retaliation :) So you can put stuff like cabal therapy in your board for more versatility, also, boarding in therapies and a squad will assrape combodecks, given you get a chance to bring them out.

On the subject of snuff out: I really don't like those because you will throw them on the bottom of your library every time you cast a ringleader. I know people who play RW goblins and imo the only edge those decks have over RGB is the goblin mirrormatch, where your weirdings won't do a whole lot compared to a plow.

sligh16
09-25-2008, 11:52 PM
yes, its very sad when you reveal a snuff out with a ringleader, but i think its a little price to pay in exchange of killing a 12/12, a 5/6 tarmo or a 8/8 terravore for free:wink:

bye!

sligh16
09-29-2008, 05:51 AM
hey guys, i was reading the first posts of this thread, and some people suggested 4 maindeck chalice of the void..............

Has anyone tested them, replacing the fanatics? i mean, land one chalice with a counter and you have dreadstill, threshold, elves :laugh: , goyf sligh, combo decks (excluding iggy pop) to your knees.

please feedback :wink:

beastman
09-29-2008, 09:21 PM
anybody have preferences on the proper number of incenerators/wieridngs should be MD?

J.V.
09-29-2008, 11:57 PM
anybody have preferences on the proper number of incenerators/wieridngs should be MD?

I've always like a 2/2 split main and 2 more Weirdings in the side.

sligh16
09-30-2008, 12:05 AM
anybody have preferences on the proper number of incenerators/wieridngs should be MD?


4 weirdings, o gempalms. Yeah, i know im a betrayer, but most of the time the incinerators cant kill anything except a confidant or a trinket mage. Its kind the same thing that happens with fanatics.

bye!

GreenOne
09-30-2008, 06:59 AM
4 Weirdings, 1 Gempalm.
In the mirror and when the opponent has a good number of creatures and you want to kill a creature specifically, Gempalm comes in handy.

snackfu
09-30-2008, 08:22 AM
I run 3 wierdings, 2-3 incinerators depending on if I need a one-of tutorable metagame goblin like shusher, sharpshooter, or an extra SGC.

Ectoplasm
09-30-2008, 11:41 AM
I run 3 weirdings and 1 incinerator but I'm considering going with a 2-2 split

kicks_422
09-30-2008, 11:50 AM
4 Weirdings, 2 Gempalms, and 1 Sharpshooter for me. I want lots of removal in the deck.

Shriekmaw
09-30-2008, 12:20 PM
I run 2 Wierdings and 3 Incinerators, along with 1 sharpshooter main deck.

I could see the number reversed to 3/2, but I've been very happy with the configuration so far.

I actually prefer incinerators most of the time unless they get a turn 2 goyf, then wierding would be better. Incinerators are harder to deal with since they can't use counters against it, and it draws you a card.

kicks_422
10-01-2008, 04:23 AM
I just have to say, with all the Zoo/Sligh-ish decks running around in MWS, that Chalice out of the SB is such a good move. They never see it coming, and it really turns an even/unfavorable matchup to an even/favorable one. I've faced 6 opponents (2 RGW Zoo, 1 5-color Zoo, 2 Goyf Sligh, and 1 Boros), and have won against them all thanks to Chalice.

Amon Amarth
10-02-2008, 04:14 PM
I run 3 Weirdings and 2 Incinerators because Edict effects are better early on and I still want to be able to draw/tutor into Gempalm with some consistency in the mid-late game.

Happy Gilmore
10-06-2008, 01:06 PM
If Piledriver is being dropped to a 3-of because of "win more" status, then why not just run matron, warchief, lackey, and ringleader as a 3-of?

Wait, all those cards win games. As a landstill player, I'm excited that anyone is willing to drop piledriver to a 3-of, so it's one less piledriver I have to answer.

Actually, my list only has 1 of them. I havn't missed it. That being said, I am running 4 SGC and multiple Worts. I promise you that those cards are scarier than multiple drivers could ever be.

ScatmanX
10-07-2008, 07:26 AM
Happy, I agree SCG and company can be scarier, but the downside of having only 1 Piledriver is having less explosives starts, killing on the 3rd, 4th turn.
I run 4 of them, and often 3 are killed, and the 4th one wins me the game.

Ectoplasm
10-07-2008, 11:31 AM
I'm playing 2-2 weirding/gempalm right now and I'm seriously considering throwing in a 3rd gempalm for something, gempalm + wort is such big cardadvantage :)

Zinch
10-07-2008, 02:27 PM
I've been playing Rbg goblins for a while and I was thinking in changing to mono-R goblins... Is this archetype viable?? Any Mono-R "expert" can say something??

Lammina
10-07-2008, 03:14 PM
Hi all!

I have a question: why, in the cases of black splash (worts, wierdings...), i donīt see anyone using "Patriarch's Bidding"?

With the new goblin, Vexing Shusher, is madness use the card?

IMO, with the bidding, the kamikaze-technique is a good one with the gobbos, making blocks and attacking more times as the "biddingness" decks, and against mass remove effects (Wrath of god, Damnation, Plage, Nevinrral, Deed, Powder Keg...) is a excellent option.

This is my list:

1 Sensation gorger
1 Bloodmark mentor
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Wort, Boggart auntie
1 Goblin King (or Vexing Shusher)
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Kiki-jiki, the mirror breaker
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lakey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron

2 Patriarch's Bidding
4 Aether Vial

2 City Of brass
2 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:

1 Vexing Shuher (or 1 Goblin King, depends the MD option)
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrosinesis
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Fusion


I need opinions!

Thanks for the help,


Lammina

beastman
10-07-2008, 03:51 PM
I've been playing Rbg goblins for a while and I was thinking in changing to mono-R goblins... Is this archetype viable?? Any Mono-R "expert" can say something??

If you drop green, you lose all removal for enchantments, while this might not be the most serious loss seeing as fewer and fewer people are packing plague, it can still be very suckatacious when you run into someone who is.
as for black, wierding is some kind of good, and is one of the reasons goblins can still deal with goyf decks (I.E. most of the format). you also lose hand disruption against combo, if anyone still plays that. lastly, i dont know if going mono red would speed the deck up at all, im not sure what you can add.

Zinch
10-07-2008, 04:32 PM
well, you can add price of progress, a great card in the actual metagame. Also i was thinking in adding 1-2 lightning crafter: it kills a large number of creatures and help against mass removal (or even spot removal if you have a vial)

Lammina
10-07-2008, 05:38 PM
Someone will reply me????

Thx,

Lammina

kicks_422
10-08-2008, 09:20 AM
I've been playing Rbg goblins for a while and I was thinking in changing to mono-R goblins... Is this archetype viable?? Any Mono-R "expert" can say something??

I'm not really an expert, but I have switched back to mono-red Goblins because of budget issues. I'd love to play Rbg Goblins, but that manabase is hellish to put together. The biggest hit would be the Weirdings and the Grips out of the SB, but it's been performing better than I thought it would in MWS testing (which might not really say much, but still...)


I have a question: why, in the cases of black splash (worts, wierdings...), i donīt see anyone using "Patriarch's Bidding"?


I believe it's because it really doesn't help against the bad match-ups, which is what the deck should try to improve on. It also doesn't help against Plague at all, and the deck could work around sweepers if you play smart.

Versus
10-08-2008, 09:40 AM
Actually, my list only has 1 of them. I havn't missed it. That being said, I am running 4 SGC and multiple Worts. I promise you that those cards are scarier than multiple drivers could ever be.

Indeed. My wife has been piloting Goblins for two months now and PD seems to be more and more lackluster. Don't get me wrong, he's a house when unaswered, but she also runs 4 SGC's (Wort) and a 3/2 Weirding/Incinerator split.

Having the Edict effect after a turn one Lackey with 4 SGCs seems to be working out pretty well. 5 Goblins on the other side of the table on turn 2 is a lot scarier than PD, imo.

ScatmanX
10-08-2008, 03:09 PM
""Having the Edict effect after a turn one Lackey with 4 SGCs seems to be working out pretty well. 5 Goblins on the other side of the table on turn 2 is a lot scarier than PD, imo.""

That is true, but I run 4 Piledrivers, and think i never got one down via Lackey.

They are grat by beeing explosives. Tutor for them, um putting them in to play for just R, while warchief is in play, is awesome. I cant count how many times i did: T1 lackey, T2 kill a dude and put a warchief, ou put an warchief and search for a PD, T3 play 2 Piledrivers, and any more nasty thing, like bold, Fanatic, winning the game on the spot. You can't to these things with just 1 Piledriver.

Tacosnape
10-08-2008, 03:38 PM
""Having the Edict effect after a turn one Lackey with 4 SGCs seems to be working out pretty well. 5 Goblins on the other side of the table on turn 2 is a lot scarier than PD, imo.""

That is true, but I run 4 Piledrivers, and think i never got one down via Lackey.

While I don't agree with cutting down below 4 Piledrivers, the reason you've probably never dropped Piledriver off Lackey is that there are a ton of better drops off Lackey: Ringleader, Warchief, Matron, and Siege-Gang. If you have a Siege-Gang, however, it's rare that you'll want to drop anything but the Siege-Gang (Sometimes you'll want to do a Ringleader for card advantage or a Warchief for speed if you're holding multiple Piledrivers.)

For the record, I run a very few frills list of 4 Drivers, 4 Weirdings, and 4 Siege-Gangs. Here's my list.

4 Badlands
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Gempalm Incinerator

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Gempalm Incinerator

ScatmanX
10-08-2008, 04:04 PM
@Tacosnape,

I wouldn't say the other drops are strictly better, they are just harder to hardcast. Why I would put down a 2 mana dude, when i could put a 3, 4 or 5 mana dude?

Your decklist, I like it. Preety Straightfoward.
I would consider fit a Wort in, but i can't really tell how effective it is, since im a monoR player. I would also consider gempalm/Weirding as 3/3, but thats because the number of goblins aroud here is quite high.
How do you side against a mirror match? - 4Weirdings , +2 Gempalm, +2 Cabal?

Tacosnape
10-08-2008, 04:11 PM
@Tacosnape,

I wouldn't say the other drops are strictly better, they are just harder to hardcast. Why I would put down a 2 mana dude, when i could put a 3, 4 or 5 mana dude?

That's sort of what I meant. Better to drop off of a Lackey.


Your decklist, I like it. Preety Straightfoward.
I would consider fit a Wort in, but i can't really tell how effective it is, since im a monoR player. I would also consider gempalm/Weirding as 3/3, but thats because the number of goblins aroud here is quite high.
How do you side against a mirror match? - 4Weirdings , +2 Gempalm, +2 Cabal?

First off, Wort sucks. Ringleader is card advantage now, and Siege-Gangs just win. Wort-recursion locks are weak and require the thing live.

In Goblin mirrors, yeah, you pretty much called it. The extra two Gempalms go a long way. I'll often board in Thoughtseize over Therapy game 2 until I know what they're boarding in against me, and Thoughtseize taking Pyrokinesis can be pretty huge. I'm starting to experiment with boarding out Lackey when on the draw for additional discard, but that's untested as of yet so don't quote me on that.

ScatmanX
10-08-2008, 04:23 PM
I figured cabal therapy, since toughtseiz costs you 2 life, what kind of sucks when racing goblins, and therapy can be devastating, since they reveal ringleader and matron draws.

I still think wort + Gempalme can be awesome. Maybe qhen I get myself 2 sets of fetchs and 1 set of duals, i'll see i'm wrong.


Have anyone tested Meekstone? I have 3 in my SB, and I Think is awesome!
it win all my matches against Stiflenought and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (u just need to block some goyfs, since they're only going to attack once with eache creature they own).
Agaist Fearie Stompy and Dragon Stompy, they've proven themselves really worthy too.

Ectoplasm
10-08-2008, 05:28 PM
Wort is incredible, especially when coupled with incinerators which turn cardadvantage into holy shit cardadvantage.
If Wort doesn't get handled she'll win straight away most of the time, she's also got a pretty sizeable body at 3/3 which makes her a nice beater coupled with her built-in fear.

I'm also wondering about the reason for not splashing green, since it's such a small investment in your manabase for such a huge payoff :)

Tacosnape
10-08-2008, 06:18 PM
Wort is incredible, especially when coupled with incinerators which turn cardadvantage into holy shit cardadvantage.
If Wort doesn't get handled she'll win straight away most of the time, she's also got a pretty sizeable body at 3/3 which makes her a nice beater coupled with her built-in fear.

I'm also wondering about the reason for not splashing green, since it's such a small investment in your manabase for such a huge payoff :)

You know what else causes insane card advantage? Goblin Ringleader. Neat part is, he doesn't require staying alive or having another card to do it.

You know what else wins most of the time if it doesn't get handled? Siege-Gang Commander. And it's harder to handle than Wort.

I can't really think of any but a few specialized situations where I'd ever want to play Wort over another Ringleader or another Siege-Gang. And I don't have a slot for it beyond my 4/4 setup, and most people who run Wort don't even run 3 Siege-Gangs. Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt stop Wort. Either of these on Ringleader and you still got your 2-3 cards out of the deal. Either of these on Siege-Gang and you still have three Goblins in play (All of which play awesome with the Piledrivers people keep wanting to cut.)

Wort is the epitome of the danger of cool things.

As for the Green thing, it's probably an option. But I'd only want one maindecked green card (A Tin-Street) and then the Grips (Or Tranquility for Plague/Assault/Enchantress) in board. I'd have no other reason for green, and I like having a few basic lands in a pinch.

kicks_422
10-08-2008, 08:09 PM
What's the better SB card for grave hate for this deck? Most of the time, mulling into Leyline isn't really needed (we already have a good game against Ichorid, and we now have Weirdings for janky Reanimator). I've been thinking about it recently, and it seems that Tormod's Crypt does just fine (or even better) than Leyline.

But actually, the real reason is that I'm thinking of selling off my Leylines and getting the cheaper Tormod's Crypts. I kind of need cash, but I don't want my deck to suffer from it.

Anyway, thoughts?

Tacosnape
10-09-2008, 02:23 AM
What's the better SB card for grave hate for this deck? Most of the time, mulling into Leyline isn't really needed (we already have a good game against Ichorid, and we now have Weirdings for janky Reanimator). I've been thinking about it recently, and it seems that Tormod's Crypt does just fine (or even better) than Leyline.

But actually, the real reason is that I'm thinking of selling off my Leylines and getting the cheaper Tormod's Crypts. I kind of need cash, but I don't want my deck to suffer from it.

Anyway, thoughts?

You're probably fine with either one. Crypt has advantages. So does Leyline. Here are the reasons I run Leyline over Crypt.

1. Leyline is stronger against any graveyard-based combo.
2. Excluding versus Confidant builds, Leyline is better than Mogg Fanatic (Or the two Gempalms against Pyroclasm-boarding builds) or any other card in my sideboard against Threshold.
3. Leyline is way, way, way better against Aggro Loam. It might be easier to remove via Burning Wish, but it'll shut off Loam and make Crusher and Terravore overpriced weaklings. And it shrinks Tarmogoyf more effectively. I'll take any card that nulls their engine and hurts all of their threats simultaneously. It's even good topdecked midgame if they blow up your first one.

Arguments for Crypt?

1. Crypt is always free off the top, and Goblins gets enough draws in a game to make this relevant.
2. Crypt is better against decks that pack natural artifact and enchantment removal (Wish for removal, Vindicate, Deed, etc) because you'll get the shot off with it whereas Leyline's a sitting duck.

ScatmanX
10-09-2008, 12:46 PM
What about the new artifact from ALA? Relic of Progenitous, i think.

At least in my expirience, it's hard to face a situation, where u have to topdeck a grave hate card, play it and use without using mana, otherwise you lose the game. You should have enough time and mana, to both drop it, and use it. Thus, the cantrip is awesome. People should give it a try.

Tacosnape
10-09-2008, 01:56 PM
What about the new artifact from ALA? Relic of Progenitous, i think.

At least in my expirience, it's hard to face a situation, where u have to topdeck a grave hate card, play it and use without using mana, otherwise you lose the game. You should have enough time and mana, to both drop it, and use it. Thus, the cantrip is awesome. People should give it a try.

It might be an option, actually. Goblins could be the right deck for it. Relic is way worse than the other two against Ichorid, but we need less help against Ichorid than most decks. Relic is strong against Threshold and anything packing a Goyf, and might be pretty solid against Aggro Loam if it doesn't get Chaliced (Tin-Street Hooligan's looking better by the minute.)

What could make Relic neat is that the cantrip effect could make it worth playing against decks where you can hurt them by stopping their graveyard, but it's not worth spending a card to do it. Survival's a classic example. Boarding in Crypt and Leyline against Survival typically isn't worthwhile in my experience, but Relic might be. I'll test it when I get some time.

ScatmanX
10-10-2008, 08:49 AM
What do you guys think would be the best awnser to Ad Nausea Tendrils deck? Our bests weapons agains it are wastelands, ports, discards (if one have on SB), and inflicting a really large amount of dmg early on, right? I saw it going off last night, there were absolutly nothing I cound do...

Tacosnape
10-10-2008, 11:20 AM
What do you guys think would be the best awnser to Ad Nausea Tendrils deck? Our bests weapons agains it are wastelands, ports, discards (if one have on SB), and inflicting a really large amount of dmg early on, right? I saw it going off last night, there were absolutly nothing I cound do...

"Don't run Goblins," would be the obvious answer here.:cool:

But yeah, you're pretty much on. Storm Combo has always been and will always be Goblins' worst matchup. The bright side is that Goblins these days actually has a fair match against a lot of other combo.

Itecken
10-10-2008, 12:50 PM
Hello, first time poster long time reader. I need some help on my goblin sleigh match up. Its the only deck that I lose constantly to in my meta. I have thresh (UGb), sneak, stax, fish, scepter, WB, and goblins (tons of goblins).

My deck is as such

Land 21
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstain Mire
4 Mountain
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Fanatic
4 Lackey
4 Driver
1 Tin Street
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Kiki-Jiki
2 Siege-Gang
3 Incinerator

3 Warren Weirding
4 Vial

Sideboard
3 Therapy
4 Chalice
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus (testing it out for now)
1 Wort

ScatmanX
10-10-2008, 01:16 PM
@Tacosnape: I just realized that Thorn of Amethist reaaly hurts Ad Nausea Tendrils, and i run 4 MD. Bad luck on not drawing any...

@Itecken: Really cant help. Maybe, in the SB,I would take out the Chalices, and put something like Piroknesis (Goblins and fish), and maybe a 4th Incinerator. But im not really a RGB fan.

beastman
10-10-2008, 01:35 PM
Hello, first time poster long time reader. I need some help on my goblin sleigh match up. Its the only deck that I lose constantly to in my meta. I have thresh (UGb), sneak, stax, fish, scepter, WB, and goblins (tons of goblins).

My deck is as such

Land 21
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstain Mire
4 Mountain
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Fanatic
4 Lackey
4 Driver
1 Tin Street
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Kiki-Jiki
2 Siege-Gang
3 Incinerator

3 Warren Weirding
4 Vial

Sideboard
3 Therapy
4 Chalice
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus (testing it out for now)
1 Wort

well for starters, kiki jiki is kind of outdated. i would most certainly run a main deck sharpshooter if the mirror is giving you trouble. he can also just end games on his own through direct damage. also, if your metagame is heavy with goblins, keep a few pyrokinesis in the board, as they can single handedly turn the match into a blowout.

Ectoplasm
10-10-2008, 02:50 PM
Running only 21 lands in a 3-colour deck is kind of shaky at best

Ranarion
10-10-2008, 02:54 PM
Hello, first time poster long time reader. I need some help on my goblin sleigh match up. Its the only deck that I lose constantly to in my meta. I have thresh (UGb), sneak, stax, fish, scepter, WB, and goblins (tons of goblins).

My deck is as such

Land 21
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstain Mire
4 Mountain
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Fanatic
4 Lackey
4 Driver
1 Tin Street
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Kiki-Jiki
2 Siege-Gang
3 Incinerator

3 Warren Weirding
4 Vial

Sideboard
3 Therapy
4 Chalice
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus (testing it out for now)
1 Wort

If there is so much Goblins I would play Terminate or Smother over Warren Weirding.

Itecken
10-10-2008, 11:02 PM
I run 21 lands because I am constantly mana flooded at 23 which is the highest I will go to on land count. On weirding, you might think it's not that good in the mirror but saccing a matron for 1 more beater (the other replaces matron) comes in handy. How does this list seem.

Land 22/3
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstain Mire
5/6 Mountain
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Fanatic
4 Lackey
4 Driver
1 Tin Street
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Sharpshooter
2 Siege-Gang
3 Incinerator

1/2 Warren Weirding
4 Vial

Sideboard
3 Therapy
3 Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus (testing it out for now)
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Incinerator/Weirding
1 Goblin Tinkerer/Wort

kicks_422
10-11-2008, 07:57 AM
Why do you have more Taigas than Badlands when you have more black cards?

chokin
10-11-2008, 06:05 PM
I like Wort, but she's been sucking more and more lately. She's excellent against decks that can't handle her for recurring removal, but sucks donkey nads when you need her the most and can't keep her down. In the mirror, recurring Incinerators with her is really awesome. Weirdings vs Goblins really sucks bad which helps if your opponent is running them and you have more Incinerators. If I expected a lot of Goblin decks, I'd swap to a 2/2 split of Incinerator and Weirdings if not a 3/2(or 1) split.

Another thing, I tried Thorn last night against burn and still got owned. I'm sticking to Chalice lol.

Tacosnape
10-12-2008, 02:02 PM
If there is so much Goblins I would play Terminate or Smother over Warren Weirding.

Or, you know, Pyrokinesis.

Goblin Mirrors are interesting and a very good and sneaky reason to not run black, especially now that R/G and Mono-R actually have a weapon to deal with Tarmogoyf in Relic of Progenitus (Albeit Weirding is more effective.) I've actually been tinkering with an R/G list that eschews 4 Weirding in favor 2 Gempalm and 2 Tin-Street, with 4x Pyrokinesis and 4x Relic of Awesome in sideboard. Threshold's tougher, but Goblins is way better, as are a few other matches that benefit from the maindeck Tin-Streets.


I like Wort, but she's been sucking more and more lately. She's excellent against decks that can't handle her for recurring removal, but sucks donkey nads when you need her the most and can't keep her down.

Agreed. This is why I don't play her.

kicks_422
10-13-2008, 07:06 AM
How has Relic of Progenitus been to those testing it? I'm really digging it. Makes me lose to Goyf a lot less. Now if only Ethersworn Canonist was printed as a Goblin...

ScatmanX
10-13-2008, 09:59 AM
"How has Relic of Progenitus been to those testing it? I'm really digging it. Makes me lose to Goyf a lot less. Now if only Ethersworn Canonist was printed as a Goblin..."

Relic in great. Against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Relic + gempalm always kills goyf or enforcer.


Agains mirrors, gemplams, pyroknesis, sharpshooters, and I plan 1 Goblin king (gives one unblockable turn) and 1 Goblin Pyromancer (gives one great attack, and, if I dont win, kill all of his goblins too)

ScatmanX
10-14-2008, 02:13 PM
I wonder if I can have a piece of advice in my sideboard. The breakdown of the field I expect to face is this:

Faeries 1
Slivers 1
Alluren 1
Belcher 2
Monoblack Aggro 1
Mono Blue Counter 1
Stifflenaught 3
Goblin 4
Boros 1
Enchantress 4
Dredge 1
Dragonstompy 4
Whitewinnie 1
Swanstresh 1
Landstill 5
Doran 1
White Stax 2
Elfsintruder 1
Rifter 2
Burn 1
Atomic BG 1
Aggroloan 2
LD red 1
Seastompy 1
The Rack 2
Merfolk 1
Affinity 1
Treshhold 2
Monogreen Stompy 1

My list is current monored, but maybe I'll get the chance to turn it into a RB until the weekend.
In a monored list, my SB would be like this:
2 Pyroknesis
2 Meekstone
2 Relic of Progenitous
2 Price of Progress
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Goblin Pyromancer
2 Anarchy
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

In a RB list I would go:
3 Engeneered explosives (would put 1 taiga to be able to go to 3cc)
2 Pyroknesis
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Duress
3 Anarchy
1 Taurean Mauler

In the RB, Sharpshooter , King and Bloodmark Mentor are MD.
The field dont have so much combos, and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh isnt really a big problem.

Explosives in the RB built are great. 0 for moxen or tokens, 1, 2 and 3 work great in mirror, Enchantress, Landstill, Stifflenaught, and other goodies (can destroy Engeneered Plague)

Anarchy is good against whinies, of course, but mainly agains landstill's Humility.

I have Nothing against Dragon Stompy, But rarelly loose to them in both versions. (black due to Warren Weirdings, red due to Bolt/Grenade).

Thanks

Against goblins, there is King, Pyromancer and Pyroknesis in both SBs.

MonoRed version is weaker against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, so 2 Relics, and 2 Meekstones (want to add 2 in the RB list too, but it has much more creature removal tha MonoRed, so maybe not needed.)

Hope you guys can come with a piece of advice, in both SBs if possible.

Zinch
10-14-2008, 03:05 PM
In a deck without draw, don't play 2 of anything in the SB (with the exception of goblins obiously). Chose the better ones and play 3-4 of them. In that vast metagame, I don't know what I would play...
If you want to play a 2nd colour, I suggest you green to play 3-4 krosan grips in the board.

IN other terms, I've played Rb, Rbg, Rg and mono red versions of this deck and actualy I think the best is mono red without fetchlands (4 wasteland, 4 rishadan port, 14 mountain). I like to play my cards and now, I can. I never undestood why people play 8 fetchlands and only 22-23 lands in a deck with so many 3-4-5 casting cost cards and no draw cards simply to maybe draw one goblin more after a ringleader... In the first place you have to play the ringleader, and against daze it doesn't happen until your 5th land.
Also, now I'm inmune to stifle (it has uses against ringleader for example, but is not like a timewalk anymore). For reference this is my list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Bloodmark Mentor
2 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege Gang Comandeer

4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
14 Mountain

Ectoplasm
10-14-2008, 06:55 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a decent 3-colour, or even 2-colour goblindeck run all 8 fetchlands, simply because it will hurt you more often than it will help.

Shriekmaw
10-14-2008, 07:50 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a decent 3-colour, or even 2-colour goblindeck run all 8 fetchlands, simply because it will hurt you more often than it will help.

My 3 color deck runs 8 fetches and I consider it the best. I've done well with it in big tournaments in the past. I would appreciate it, if you could get your facts straight before posting.

Tacosnape
10-14-2008, 09:32 PM
My 3 color deck runs 8 fetches and I consider it the best. I've done well with it in big tournaments in the past. I would appreciate it, if you could get your facts straight before posting.

Technically he didn't get any facts wrong. He said that he's never seen one. This is somewhat akin to saying that Helen Keller wouldn't have found the giant ass Sir Mix-A-Lot stands on in the music video for Baby Got Back hilarious. It doesn't mean that the giant ass wasn't hilarious. It just means Helen Keller would have had no idea it was there.

What I think he's saying though is that if you run 8 fetches in 3-color (And still Port) that your manabase gets fragile.

I think the point that needs to be made is that there just aren't enough slots to get every land Goblins would like to fit in. A standard 2-color deck currently runs about 22 land on average. Which means it has to condense its awesome 24 (4 Dual, 4 Basic, 8 Fetch, 4 Waste, 4 Port) down to 22 by cutting something. No matter what you cut, there's going to be a bonus and a drawback:

-If you cut 2 Basics, you're only running six actual red lands, and you're more vulnerable to Wasteland, but you now have 12 ways to hit your splash color and get the power of a full four Ports.

-If you cut 2 Fetchlands, you're now running a more solid actual eight red lands, but you lose two ways to hit your splash color from above, down to 10. You still get the full power of four Ports.

-If you cut two Ports, you get the best of both of the above worlds in consistency, having a full eight red lands, 12 ways to hit your splash color, and sixteen ways to hit Red towards getting you Warchief mana on turn three, but now you're sacrificing part of your mana denial elements, and mana denial is one of the only means Goblins has to prevent a deck from doing whatever it needs to do to beat Goblins.

Once you go to three colors, it gets even trickier. You can run 4/2 Dual splits, or 3/3, or 4/4, or whatnot. You can eliminate Port entirely for color versatility, or try to keep it in. You can try running no basics on the ground that Blood Moon can't hurt you, but Wasteland and Back to Basics will still rape you.

The point is that every single thing you do to Goblins' manabase is going to have a bonus and a drawback, both of which will vary in relevance from game to game and from matchup to matchup.

P-AiR
10-15-2008, 11:14 AM
hey guys I realized in the past threads people included earwig squads in the main deck. What's everyone's thoughts on them?does anyone have good solutions to dragon storm decks ? I mean I candeal with the hellkites when they hit the table with weirdings and incinerators, but when he does 20 damage from dropping 4 of them it definitely hurts

Ectoplasm
10-15-2008, 01:03 PM
My 3 color deck runs 8 fetches and I consider it the best. I've done well with it in big tournaments in the past. I would appreciate it, if you could get your facts straight before posting.

I didn't say running less than 8 would be 'the best' :( I said that *usually, the decks that I see which involve 2 or more colours* run less than 8, this because it would stabilize your manabase a bit. I've ran 6 in the past (playing 3 colours) and am currently running 7, 5 mountains, 6 duallands and 4 wastelands for a total of 22 lands and I'm considering dropping a creature for an 8th fetchland myself, so it's not like I called running 8 fetchlands crappy.

It's just that I thought running less was more or less 'standardized' in triplecolour goblindecks :) Apparently I was wrong.

BKclassic
10-15-2008, 01:28 PM
hey guys I realized in the past threads people included earwig squads in the main deck. What's everyone's thoughts on them?does anyone have good solutions to dragon storm decks ? I mean I candeal with the hellkites when they hit the table with weirdings and incinerators, but when he does 20 damage from dropping 4 of them it definitely hurts

Most of us probably don't have to deal with Dragonstorm in our metagames, and thusly Earwig Squad is largely absent from lists you will see. However if Dragonstorm is the pervebial "bees knees" in your meta, I would probably go for it and run a couple.

Shriekmaw
10-15-2008, 01:34 PM
I didn't say running less than 8 would be 'the best' :( I said that *usually, the decks that I see which involve 2 or more colours* run less than 8, this because it would stabilize your manabase a bit. I've ran 6 in the past (playing 3 colours) and am currently running 7, 5 mountains, 6 duallands and 4 wastelands for a total of 22 lands and I'm considering dropping a creature for an 8th fetchland myself, so it's not like I called running 8 fetchlands crappy.

It's just that I thought running less was more or less 'standardized' in triplecolour goblindecks :) Apparently I was wrong.


Since I added the third color black, when warren weirding was printed, I had to drop the ports for 4 badlands, so I would consistently hit my color mana. I've always ran all 8 fetches since thinning out your deck was key for the ability to draw more threats and better ringleaders.

I've also run 23 lands because goblins is very mana intensive for a creature deck, you need to consistently hit 4 lands in play. I'm really thinking about cutting the 1 tin street for the third weriding. To be honest, Wort doesn't do a lot on many occasions, but I still like to have him in there since he requires an immediate answer.

In my area, since combo is pretty relevant, I usually only tend to play goblins in bigger events. Even with the 4 chalice and 3 therapy in the board, I still lose to combo.

If you can't find my list or would like it, just pm me and I'll be happy to give it to you.

Later.

Vacrix
10-17-2008, 05:36 PM
is Rb goblins any good? my friend plays it with Warren's Weirding to get rid of shit when playing against thresh or dreadnought or reanimator.

i personally think that it would be better to run 8 discard (ie. 4 cabal therapy and 4 thoughtseize) from all that i have read in the forums people seem to have the most trouble with the versions with discard. i think therapy would be great considering all the creatures you have to sac to it vs. control and aggro. and both spels can hit goyf and counterbalance.


EDIT:
And discard is great against Stompy and combo, and decent against control.

Grammar and spelling are held to a higher standard in the DtB threads. Proper capitalization is mandatory.
-TOOL

kicks_422
10-18-2008, 01:18 AM
Goblins, with any splash color, is still good. The splash colors are really just for meta considerations, because the core itself is really strong and synergistic with each other.

I've been re-testing mono-red Goblins with 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands, and I can't believe that I had dropped Ports initally. I really can't remember what made me drop them, but it was a huge mistake on my part to do so.

BTW, why are Rishadan Ports more expensive than Wastelands?

Glorfindel
10-18-2008, 04:57 AM
Wastelands are uncommon, while Rishadan Ports are rare.

Media314r8
10-18-2008, 06:09 AM
is Rb goblins any good? my friend plays it with Warren's Weirding to get rid of shit when playing against thresh or dreadnought or reanimator.

i personally think that it would be better to run 8 discard (ie. 4 cabal therapy and 4 thoughtseize) from all that i have read in the forums people seem to have the most trouble with the versions with discard. i think therapy would be great considering all the creatures you have to sac to it vs. control and aggro. and both spels can hit goyf and counterbalance.


EDIT:
And discard is great against Stompy and combo, and decent against control.


Discard does not have the sub-type 'goblin,' which is why the rest of the deck is good, all the sub-types are 'goblin' or 'land.' Wierding is a tutorable, ringleaderable, warchief-made cheaper, wort overkill win-unless-answered edict. Discard makes your own when you reveal it with ringleader, wierding allows you to 1-1 or 0-1 your opponent and their often untargetable or 5/6 dude, with a deck that has build in CA and cheats on mana. IMO, earwig squad is a fine 1-3 of maindeck if you have a lot of combo in your meta, (was slightly better back when people played breakfast) possibly (basfemy, i know) replacing a few piledrivers and obv the tin street(s) as you're not running green. (the prowl is reduced by warchief's ability as well)

After boards, chalice at 0/1 and a fast clock with either a few cabals from the board or a couple of 'squads should put you on almost even footing, but that's what thresh is in the meta for- to take out combo decks in large tournaments so the top 8 is creature decks, what goblins wants to face.

ScatmanX
10-20-2008, 06:09 PM
What would be a good SB card againts Burn in a MonoRed or RB list?
With black, Cabal therapies are nice, and there is also CotV, but I dont think then can keep them from dooing much... Is there something better out there?

heroicraptor
10-20-2008, 10:07 PM
What would be a good SB card againts Burn in a MonoRed or RB list?
With black, Cabal therapies are nice, and there is also CotV, but I dont think then can keep them from dooing much... Is there something better out there?
Dragon's Claw is pretty lulzy.

GreenOne
10-21-2008, 03:14 AM
What would be a good SB card againts Burn in a MonoRed or RB list?
With black, Cabal therapies are nice, and there is also CotV, but I dont think then can keep them from dooing much... Is there something better out there?

The only card that it's playable in other matchups too is Jitte. Otherwise you could try Dragon's Claw.

Zinch
10-21-2008, 03:40 AM
If your metagame is "normal" (burn is only a marginal deck) I suggest that you play cards that are good inother match ups as others have said: Chalice of the void (against combo) and jittes (against aggro decks).

And now that we are on the matter, this is my sideboard, but I'm not sure of numbers and some cards yet (my deck ismono red):

3 Price of Progress
2 Boartusk Liege (against red decks packing pyroclasm and plagues)
3 Relic of progenitus
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chaliceo of the void

What do you think? There are so many cards I want to put that I don't know the best configuration

Edit: Solved the "7 chalices" issue...

kicks_422
10-21-2008, 08:58 AM
Zinch, 7 Chalices sure would be great against Burn, that's for sure.

Chalice has been enough for me to combat Burn. And Zoo. And Sligh. It's not as powerful as other cards that the deck could run to hose Burn, but it's very versatile.

Jitte in Goblins? Really? How does that work out? Also, I've been running Goblin King as my answer to Plague in my mono-red list, 1 MD and 3 in the SB, since I generally find Pyroclasms easier to work against. The mountainwalk occasionally comes in handy too.

Mantis
10-21-2008, 11:26 AM
Mad Auntie seems much better as Goblin King, it's way better in the mirror match, allowing your Goblins to easily trump theirs, the regenerate abbility ensures every combat situation is just unfair. I actually run the Mad Auntie in my maindeck, but she could easily be delegated to the sideboard.

To combat Pyroclasm I would just advise to run a Wort maindeck, she survives the Clasm and next turn brings back the most scary Goblin. Although Boartusk Liege is quite a good solution as well.

I was thinking about 4 Chalice in my board as well. It seems like one of the best solutions to slowing down combo. Ad Naseum now costs 6 non-mox, non-LED, non-Petal mana as they also need one mana to Chain of Vapor your Chalice and go apes with the artifacts. Slowing them down is quite good because it allows you to deal more damage and thus they can Ad Naseum for less cards and you get more time to disrupt their manasources. I feel like Chalice for 0 will just win the match against combo. I also run one Earwig Squad to remove their winconditions. This also comes in against decks packing Pernicious Deed or just play relatively few winconditions such as ITF or Landstill.

Furthermore I run 4 Leyline for Aggro Loam and Ichorid. Perhaps Chalice should come in as well against Ichorid, set to 0 it stops LED and you can set it at 1 to stop Chain of Vapor postboard if you draw the Leyline. Mogg Fanatic is great in this matchup as well, so it's postboard it's quite winnable actually.

That's 9 slots so far and I'm trying to figure out what to do with the rest of the slots. If I play RB Goblins I would likely play a few Goblin Tinkerers to neuter Stax, Dreadstill and Stompy decks, if it was RGB I would have to make the choice between Tin-Street Hooligan, Ancient Grudge (which I very much like because it's awesome if you don't have access to green as well) or Krosan Grip. But these slots could also go to Engineered Explosives, though that's unlikely.

The 13th slot is going to be Gaea's Blessing as I love free wins against Painter. I feel that with 4 Artifact disruption spells and Gaea's Blessing, I would have a hard time losing that match.

The last two slots I have not yet figured out. Maybe fill it out with Gempalm Incinerators and Warren Weirdings, I don't know.

So the SB would become:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Earwig Squad
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Weirding

That looks pretty solid for my RB Goblins list.

kicks_422
10-21-2008, 12:35 PM
For mono-red, here's my SB:

3 Goblin King
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle

And for my dream RGB build:

3 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pithing Needle

I I board something in, I really want to see it, hence the mostly 4-ofs. Also, why do I rarely see Needles in Goblins SB's? It's a really strong card, as it answers a lot of the deck's problem cards.

beastman
10-21-2008, 03:29 PM
What cards can it answer that you have trouble with? Usually, enchantment and artifact removal is a four of before everything else because of cards like Jitte, SoFI, and plague. Those are the cards that can really ruin your day.

Forbiddian
10-21-2008, 03:36 PM
Mmm, plague.

Why do people run Goblin King over Mad Auntie in RB? Mad Auntie is great, getting you around Goyf Walls or other big critters. You can Vial her in and regenerate Warchief. B is probably slightly harder to get than RR, but she's so much better than Goblin King it's not even fair.


The only time when Mountainwalk matters is against I guess Goyf Sligh or Aggro Loam, but in both matchups the regen is just as relevant or more relevant. I can see other matchups where the regen matters but the mountainwalk doesn't (anything with creatures, esp Goyf).

Also, Mad Auntie only pumps your Goblins, making her ridiculously good against other Goblin decks (compared to Goblin King). Occasionally you might run into that new Morphafactoryvoid.


EDIT: I've been happy with 1x Wort. One turn with her seals the game and often other decks piss away removal on your earlier drops (or they happen to run Smother or Snuff Out). Obviously Ringleader is better, but I would run 10 Ringleaders if I could.

I justify the 1x because I never ever want to see 2x.

ScatmanX
10-21-2008, 04:35 PM
You guys dont have SB cards agaist mirror. why is that? I saw only 1 Gempalm in a SB. I really like Pyroknesis, 2 in SB. My field have a lot of goblins, mainly MonoR or Rg.

Is CotV Sided in agains ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh? set at 1 and 2, is preety much gg, right?

I also would like to know the Jitte thing. How is it working out?

Edit: Currently trying 1x Wort main. quite happy, but I need to play more.

beastman
10-21-2008, 05:17 PM
Sideboarding for goblins is a very metagame oriented deal. The comments and generalized sideboards are put together with a large, unknown metagame in mind. Personally, regardless of how well I know a certain metagame, I always have a set of Krosan grips in the board. the other SB card that I forgot earlier is chalice of the void. this is one of your best tools to fight off combo, and I would always have 4 in the board, unless you are completely sure there is no combo where you play. But once again, it is all a personal metagame call, and you have to decide for yourself based off what decks you see most often.

ScatmanX
10-21-2008, 05:26 PM
My SB is looking like this now, for RBg

SB: 2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

I think it has everything you one want, right?

kicks_422
10-21-2008, 06:41 PM
Why do people run Goblin King over Mad Auntie in RB?

The King was for mono-red. If I was running RB, it would most definitely be Mad Auntie.

Well, I don't like boarding in Grips against Jitte and Deed. Needle answers those better, because it answers every copy of that card in the deck. II only board in Grip if the problem card can't be Needle'd (e.g. Plague, Humility, etc.)

Mantis
10-22-2008, 10:34 AM
Not sure about Chalice against Threshold, I'm really curious how other feel about this issue.

About RGB Goblins, I had a lot of trouble getting both a Taiga and a Badlands into play. Thus I often had Krosan Grip in my hand but no Taiga to cast it. The same happened with Tin Street Hooligan, I needed the artifact removal but couldn't topdeck a green land because I already used my fetchland on Badlands. The same thing happened with black, I use my Fetchland to get Taiga and then I can't cast the Warren Weirding. This led me to RB Goblins because Red has got it's own artifact hate (I run Goblin Tinkerer), so you only lack enchantment hate. That sucks, but isn't going to be relevant that often. Siege-Gang can pull out the game against Moat, so the only things I really fear are Enchantress, Solitary Confinement and Seismic Assault, meh I'll take my loss. Counterbalance can be dodged by Lackey, Vial and you can just hardcast Siege-Gang, Warchief, Wort, Mad Auntie and Ringleader as they don't cost one or 2 mana.

kicks_422
10-22-2008, 10:40 AM
I have been thinking of dropping green entirely too, though. I re-evalutaed the cards which I side Grip against, and those happen to be:

Engineered Plague - not really played much anymore, but if I'd go RB, I'd squeeze Mad Aunties in somewhere
Seismic Assault - Can be Needle'd
Solitary Confinement - usually uses a graveyard engine, so Relic would suffice
Phyrexian Dreadnought - Weirding could be enough, I'm not sure though
Everything in Stax - Maybe some Shattering Sprees?

I really don't fear Counterbalance much with Goblins. I think the only card that RB can't answer would be Humility, and the cards which it would have difficulty against would be Ghostly Prison/Propaganda.

Justin
10-22-2008, 11:14 AM
I think the only card that RB can't answer would be Humility, and the cards which it would have difficulty against would be Ghostly Prison/Propaganda.

Humility is a problem because Landstill is one of the most popular decks in Legacy. I almost always see a Landstill deck with Humility when I play a tourney, so that pulls me towards the green splash and Grips in the board. I guess it's a metagame choice though.

Zinch
10-22-2008, 11:40 AM
Well, humility is not that common in my meta, but even then, humility is not gg, it only slows you down a little... I play monored, so no krosan grips, but with 4 ports and 4 wastelands the landstill player is in low life count when he drops the humility and then has to answer the 2-3 1/1 critters that are attacking him... I don't say is easy to win through a humility, only that is not imposible

Nihil Credo
10-22-2008, 11:47 AM
Go back to Anarchy. It beats Humility plus several other seldom-seen, but annoying cards like Ghostly Prison, Sphere of Law, Silver Knight, Worship, etc.

Shriekmaw
10-22-2008, 12:43 PM
I have been thinking of dropping green entirely too, though. I re-evalutaed the cards which I side Grip against, and those happen to be:

Engineered Plague - not really played much anymore, but if I'd go RB, I'd squeeze Mad Aunties in somewhere
Seismic Assault - Can be Needle'd
Solitary Confinement - usually uses a graveyard engine, so Relic would suffice
Phyrexian Dreadnought - Weirding could be enough, I'm not sure though
Everything in Stax - Maybe some Shattering Sprees?

I really don't fear Counterbalance much with Goblins. I think the only card that RB can't answer would be Humility, and the cards which it would have difficulty against would be Ghostly Prison/Propaganda.


I think playing green and black is both very necessary in goblins today. Not only do you have access to Krosan Grip but Engineered Explosives with the 3 color list. The deck is really fast that you can just outrace a lot of hate, but if you can't grip and explosives solves a lot of problems. I wouldn't of done well in so many tournaments if it wasn't for those 2 cards alone in the sideboard.

Engineered Plague is definitely played, maybe not as much but it still remains in a lot of sideboards. Plus, now people fear faeries ever since bitterblossom was printed.

Mantis
10-22-2008, 01:09 PM
Leyline of the Void vs. Relic of Progenitus? I'm leaning towards Leyline as it's much better against Ichorid and against Aggro Loam, it can't be stopped by Chalice. Sure, they can destroy it but that means they just spent a huge deal of tempo and you delayed their gameplan a lot. Relic does seem better against Survival though, so it might be a metagame call. Opinions!!

What problems does Engineered Explosives solve? It seems really slow. We already discussed Counterbalance and most found it to be not much of a problem. Bringing in a card that generates a lot of tempo loss when it's Stifled just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. Also, you have goblins that cost 1, 2 and 3 mana thus you will very often be forced to blow up your own Goblins.

Pernicious Deed is actually not that much of a problem for this deck in my honest opinion. You have a lot of ways to cut off their access to the mana required for Deed and you can easily recover from a Deed, unless they take control. I personally hate Pithing Needle, I would never play it unless I had Trinket Mage in the maindeck. It's terrible as pro-active control element because, what if your opponent doesn't have the card in hand you named. And against Deed, you are forced to use it as pro-active control element otherwise your world will be blown up anyway.

Also, what are the opinions on Goblin Tinkerer? Too slow? It seems awesome against Dreadstill, Painter.dec and Dragon Stompy. Also, it's a golin and a creature and as such can be Vialed in and works with Ringleader. It allows you to stop the CB/Top lock as well, as you can just destroy the Top before you play a spell. Although they can still use Brainstorm in conjunction with Top.

EDIT: Forgot about Vexing Shusher, that card can singlehandedly deal with Counterbalance/Top. It's definately going to be a one-of in the SB and maybe it will find it's way into the maindeck.

Tacosnape
10-22-2008, 01:21 PM
Leyline of the Void vs. Relic of Progenitus? I'm leaning towards Leyline as it's much better against Ichorid and against Aggro Loam, it can't be stopped by Chalice. Sure, they can destroy it but that means they just spent a huge deal of tempo and you delayed their gameplan a lot. Relic does seem better against Survival though, so it might be a metagame call. Opinions!!

Relic. There's not even a choice. For Goblins, Relic of Progenitus >> Every other graveyard hate in existence. Here's my list of why.

1. Relic of Progenitus solves Tarmogoyf. Almost on its own. R/G Goblins without Black is viable again thanks to this card. R/B gets to pair it with Weirding.

2. See #1.

3. See #2.

4. Relic of Progenitus hits both graveyards. This is actually a plus, as there's no reason to ever want anything in your graveyard with Vial Goblins. It keeps you from being hit by random rogue things like Crime, Haunting Echoes, what have you (I'd say Extirpate, but nobody plays Extirpate against Goblins.) Additionally, it keeps card types out of your yard against future Tarmogoyfs (See #1-#3.)

5. It fucking cantrips. In the right metagames (Read Thresh/Ichorid), you can actually maindeck it if you want, because it replaces itself.

6. You can play it off Wasteland/Port mana and don't need to draw it in your opening hand. This is strictly a "Why it's better than Leyline" argument.

ScatmanX
10-22-2008, 06:32 PM
Tasconape, I agree with you in every matter. Played relic in a champ last weekend, adn against 2 ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, it rocked. But i don't think that cutting black is a good idea. In my meta, there are a lot of goblins, and i play 2 Nameless Inversios md, along with gempalm and weirdings. cant see dropping then is as a good call.

Enigma
10-22-2008, 07:00 PM
Go back to Anarchy. It beats Humility plus several other seldom-seen, but annoying cards like Ghostly Prison, Sphere of Law, Silver Knight, Worship, etc.

In my meta, there's one or two players that play Moat and if he succed to resolve it before I use all my mana denial to don't let him have 4 mana, the only thing I can do is to scoop...

There's also a good Death & Taxes player that has a lot answers to Goblin.

And Stax is still sometimes played.

Anarchy looks like the only solution to Mono-R and RB lists, even if against Stax it's pretty hard to have 4 free lands to play it.

I used to try the RBG list with Krosan grip in SB but I've never been really able to make it effectiv.

Now I'm back with a RB list with this SB:

4x Pyrokinesis (absolutly indispensable)
2x Pithing Needle
3x Shattering Spree
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Tinkerer

But I would like to include 2x Anarchy and maybe a Mad auntie if Engineered Plague is still used.

chokin
10-22-2008, 09:37 PM
What problems does Engineered Explosives solve? It seems really slow. We already discussed Counterbalance and most found it to be not much of a problem. Bringing in a card that generates a lot of tempo loss when it's Stifled just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. Also, you have goblins that cost 1, 2 and 3 mana thus you will very often be forced to blow up your own Goblins.

Also, what are the opinions on Goblin Tinkerer?

EDIT: Forgot about Vexing Shusher, that card can singlehandedly deal with Counterbalance/Top. It's definately going to be a one-of in the SB and maybe it will find it's way into the maindeck.

I like EE to kill CB, but not as much as Grip. CB is a bitch when you want to resolve Weirdings against a Goyf especially if they Pyroclasm your goblins to make Incinerator worthless. Shusher usually has an "AIM HERE" sign over his head and dies before being able to do much. I like that it answers EtW tokens and other tokens (people play weird decks in Tucson apparently).

I like Tinkerer over TSH solely because of Warchief. Chief makes TSH suck when you want it to shine and makes Tinkerer hot sauce. Without Chief, TSH is much better because Tinkerer is a sitting duck. I also like Vial@2+Chief giving you a quick Shatter effect, which TSH can never do.

Also, LotV and Relic. Holy crap Relic looks sexy as hell. I agree completely with Tacosnape. It makes Incinerator badass against Goyf (play+use Relic[draw], use Incinerator[draw], Goyf dies, smile). It's also awesome for attacking into or blocking Goyf and then using Relic.

EDIT: @Enigma - Don't scoop to Moat. Send your little green men over his Moat with SGC. Otherwise, deny his mana like you are. Grip solves this issue too. I run 2 Taiga and 3-4 Grip SB. I don't see how you're having issues making it effective. Explain?

Enigma
10-22-2008, 10:21 PM
Grip solves this issue too. I run 2 Taiga and 3-4 Grip SB. I don't see how you're having issues making it effective. Explain?
First, I only had 1 Taiga. Second, I only had place for 2 K Grip in side. Might be explaining why. Plus, 3 cc is a lot against White Stax.




Holy crap Relic looks sexy as hell. I agree completely with Tacosnape. It makes Incinerator badass against Goyf (play+use Relic[draw], use Incinerator[draw], Goyf dies, smile). It's also awesome for attacking into or blocking Goyf and then using Relic.
There's might be something I don't understand. The first ability of Relic remove a card the player choose so how it is good vs Ichorid or Survival advantage where you want to remove specific cards from his graveyard? Is just the first ability helpless and we rely the effectivness of the card to its second ability?

Tacosnape
10-22-2008, 11:04 PM
Since when do people leave Counterbalance in against Goblins post-board? Most people I know don't. Counterbalance against a deck with eight ways to get things in play without casting spells and 12-16 3-4 drops, not to mention sideboard hate for it, typically seems like a bad plan when Counterbalance could be replaced with things that, you know, rape goblins. I don't worry too much about boarding against Counterbalance.

@Enigma: Against Ichorid, yes, you detonate the thing more often than not. Against Survival, on the other hand, you might use the first ability to keep Goyfs in check when your opponent doesn't have a Survival, and if you get multiples early enough it's not unfeasible to keep them off Squee/Genesis without cracking the thing. That said, cracking Relic gets you the card, so it shouldn't be something you're afraid to do. Against Thresh, however, a turn one Relic is pretty sexy (Not like Vial sexy, but you know.) The Relic won't outrace Threshold's graveyard filling, but it will slow it down for a few turns until you need to detonate it.

Mantis
10-23-2008, 05:55 AM
Okay, I just recently picked up Goblins for Legacy after having played with it a lot in Vintage. Anyway, what's your plan against Threshold on the draw. Would you just run into Daze or play around it with Lackey and Vial? Would you play a first turn Lackey or a first turn Relic assuming you have another good Goblin in your hand? Would you side in Chalice of the Void against Threshold?

So if EE is used to combat randomness it's probably safe to cut it then. In Holland the people generally just play good decks and the bad players might play random decks but I should have no trouble defeating them anyway.

I truly dislike Thorn of Amethyst, you've got better things to do on turn 2 and my T1 experiences with Thorn of Amethyst were really mediocre. And if it's mediocre there (with all the acceleration and lack of creatures in the format), it should be just bad in Legacy if you can't run it out on turn 1.

ScatmanX
10-23-2008, 07:00 AM
"So if EE is used to combat randomness it's probably safe to cut it then."

there is: Empty the Warrens, crucible of world, counterbalance, Veldaken Shackles, jitte, vial, SoFI, oblivion ring (and the hole enchantress deck), moxen, and lots of random things. And EE deals with all instances of then, not just 1, like Krosa Grip (dont get me wrong, i like 4 Krosan in the board).
Plus, i think that, taking down 2 goyf and loosing 1 or 2 Piledrivers is a good deal. You can refill your boar way quicker then them.
I'm sad I can't find room for them. Maybe I'll cut the pithing needles and the Auntie (now MD), put 3 EEs, and another goblin.

PS: starting to playwith 1 Mad Auntie main. it rox.

Mantis
10-23-2008, 07:41 AM
But only EtW poses a real threat of the things you've listed. You can handle the artifacts with Tinkerer or Hooligan, Oblivion Ring just trades 1 for 1 so that's not too bad. Anyway, I might be wrong as I never tested EE but it just seems very counter intuitive in a deck that is filled with permanents and likes it's cards to put pressure on the opponent asap. With EE you are just forcing the control role and I'm not sure that's what this deck wants. Also, I'm not sure if just Grip and EE are worth forcing the third color and opening yourself up to color screw in an otherwise very stable and consistent deck.

ScatmanX
10-23-2008, 07:56 AM
I'm yet to have a problem with land screw. I have 7 fetchs, 2 taiga, 2 badlands, and 1 swamp (wtf? 1 swamp?) yes. It does not die to wasteland, so after fetching the swamp, I rarely need badlands, so i can go for taiga (1 swamp + 1 forest seems a lot riscky though).

Regarding the control thing, I kind of disagree. Goblins is better of as a control deck sometimes. Your CA is so great, You dont need to overwhelm the opponent asap sometimes, just land theats until they have no anwsers for them.

On EE again, I just think your not seeing the picture where it destroy 2+ permanents. Sure Oblivion ring is 1for1, but 2 oblivion ring makes EE looks sexy. Destroying 2 Shackles, 1 Shackles and 1 CoW...

For the record, they are constantly in and out my SB, so i'm not completly sure of it also. I'm just not discarding it.

Mantis
10-23-2008, 08:13 AM
First of all, I really don't like a Swamp in the maindeck. I don't really care for Wasteland being used against me, in fact I kind of like them to use Wasteland on me so they lose tempo while I have Vial and Lackey to keep putting threats into play.

I agree with you that you like to play the control role sometimes but I used the wrong words in my previous post. I believe that in Legacy the terms control role and aggro role much less apply because of the nature of the format and the lack of inevitability of decks compared to the opposing decks. Take Goblins for example, even Moat is not inevitabile against us, whereas in a lot of other formats it would be.

Anyway back on EE, I mean it does work against the cards you mentioned but it sucks against the decks that play those cards. Jitte and SoFaI are played by Dragon Stompy, I'm sure as hell not going to put in a card that requires me to have 3 different types of land against a deck that plays 8 Moon effects regardless of if they sided them out or not, I'm not taking the risk. Vedalken Shackles is played by Mono U control and they play B2B so I want to fetch basics here. And still getting 3 non-Port, non-Wasteland lands up is quite difficult. But yes, I am missing the picture I just can't see EE generating that much cardadvantage, if you get really lucky you gain +1 cardadvantage but most of the time it will just trade and sometimes it's card disadvantage. For the huge mana investment required I don't really think it's that awesome. And let's get real here, most of the time it will just trade 1 for 1 with you investing 2 more mana then the opponent. I would prefer Krosan Grip here.

But like I said, I haven't tested it and if I run into a lot of problems with RB Goblins I will definately give them a try in RGB Gobs. If only it was because you said they were good and gave some strong arguments, they will be worthy of my testing time.

ScatmanX
10-23-2008, 08:28 AM
Actually, I'm just discussing it, because I think that these tipes os discussions is what makes we get a better vision of our own decks, making us play better. The reason why I'm trying Rbg is because of Krosan Grips, EE was just one idea.

I really liked your argument, especially the par on B2B, and moon efects. That really does happens. You're right.

Abaout the swamp, I'm sticking with it. Wastlanding a Badland isn't as bad for them as is for us. If they run wasteland, they have mesured the pros and cons of it. If they sac it to destroy our badland, they must have a reealy good tempo going on, otherwise, what you say is right.

One more thing: Would you mind posting your Rb list? I ran it for a really short while, and wasant very happy, loosing a lot to CB, Shackles, Humility, Crucible of Worlds... I'd be like very much to see a RB list wich I would be confortable playing with, because right now, I'm thinking tha Krosan Grip and TSH help in a lot more ways then a Taiga makes dificult.

(I have seen and read your explanation on your SB 2 pages ago, so no need for re-explaining it. =])

Mantis
10-23-2008, 11:36 AM
My list is pretty straightforward, I'm not sure on the manabase yet. The #4 Port might become #5 Mountain. Also, I am undecided on Sharpshooter, there's not much Fish or WW going on so it probably suck, although it's another way to kill under Moat. Perhaps a sideboard card.

3 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Port
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Warchief
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Siege Gang
1 Mad Auntie
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Warren Weirding

And for the sideboard I will replace the Leylines with the Relics.

Also, I'm undecided on the third color. Really I would love to play Krosan Grip and TSH but I just need to get some testing in. But I'm not even sure Tin Street Hooligan is better than Tinkerer, because you can just drop a Tinkerer and they can never go off with Painter/Stone and they can never set up the CB/Top lock.

ScatmanX
10-23-2008, 11:57 AM
Nice list.

The TSH is not suposed (i think) to run in place of Tinkerer, but alongside with it, because, though they "do the same thing", they act very diferently.

The relics are working great for me right now, so i think cuttin LotV is a good idea.

I think the manabase it's ok. I would run my swamp, but I'm the only one to think that way (and my version have more black).

Ectoplasm
10-23-2008, 01:01 PM
Just a quick thought for Mantis, but MD'ing a card that turns your fanatics into shocks and potential lightning bolts (sharpshooter) is always a good idea! Couple it with a siege-gang and he just goes nuts.
Sharpshooter looks situational at first, but you can pull off some crazy stuff with him so he'll almost always be relevant. Also he can hit random shit like bob, eternal witnesses, destroy etw/bitterblossom tokens etc, especially if you have a warchief in play already.

Shriekmaw
10-23-2008, 04:41 PM
What problems does Engineered Explosives solve? It seems really slow. We already discussed Counterbalance and most found it to be not much of a problem. Bringing in a card that generates a lot of tempo loss when it's Stifled just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. Also, you have goblins that cost 1, 2 and 3 mana thus you will very often be forced to blow up your own Goblins.




Engineered Explosives solves many problems. It solves multiple plagues, kills goyfs, moongoose, and counterbalance. It's just a good utility card in the board for a lot of other matchups were they might become helpful, all depending on your boarding strategy. I don't board in this card often, but its definetely worth having in there. Also, 3 Krosan Grips just doesn't cut it sometimes to fight through plagues.

Matchups where I board it in: Threshold, Decks/w E. Plague in board, Storm Combo (goblin tokens).

I can't believe people are such noobs when it comes to not only playing goblins, but sideboarding. I believe more playtesting is involved if you don't see the uses of engineeered explosives in the board.

Also, you must know how the matchup of a deck changes after game 1. Goblins is a great game 1 deck to play, but after that it can become very difficult to win when facing multiple hate cards.

kicks_422
10-23-2008, 06:36 PM
Thing is, most people aren't packing SB hate anymore for Goblins. Remember when UGW Thresh ran Tivadar's Crusade? And when every deck with black ran 4 Engineered Plagues? That's not the case today.

Seriously
10-24-2008, 12:42 AM
on a side note, does anyone have a properly optimized mono red goblins list ? or even just what the land count is for mono red. I currently dont have $160 extra to spend on land just to add 4 warren weirdings.

Zinch
10-24-2008, 01:53 AM
I play mono red, because I think is the best configuration in my meta (with so much non basic hate and dreadstill decks with sifle). I play 22 lands:
14 Mountain, 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Ports and I don't have any problem with the mana base. seriously, never. You should try it (I know mono red give less options, but thacosistenci of this mana base is incredible)

Mantis
10-24-2008, 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I can't believe people are such noobs when it comes to not only playing goblins, but sideboarding. I believe more playtesting is involved if you don't see the uses of engineeered explosives in the board.

I'm sorry, did you just call me a 'noob'? I play this game for over 10 years and have won and T8-ed many tournaments I play. I have never heard this accusation coming from anyone besides people who are considered 'bad players' themselfs (ie people from MWS). I'll just pretend you didn't say that, to avoid flamewars.

But if you read my previous comments closely I already mentioned I need more testing before I can dismiss Engineered Explosives. I was merely questioning it's use. Now that I've gotten a lot of responses from people saying Engineered Explosives is the nut high for them, I will give it a shot. That's why I discuss things in the first place. And if you don't board it in that often, you should keep asking yourself the question 'Is it worth it?' as well.

@kicks_422;
Yes, that's the exact same observation I made. Besides occasional Pyroclasms and the White Stax components, there's not much Goblins hate going around.

@Ectoplasm;
We have played on MWS in the past and I value your opinion highly based on the playskill you presented there. So I will definately give Sharpshooter a closer look, thanks for responding.

EDIT:http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16596.html :-\. Opinions on this list? Is this list only good for a combo heavy metagame, is it insane or flatout bad? I think I would replace 2 Siege Gang with Piledrivers. The sideboard looks very odd and different then anything we talked about. Perish doesn't really seem needed with Relics from the board.

ScatmanX
10-24-2008, 08:40 AM
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/16596.html

I havenīt like thins list very much... Maybe for a combo meta, but even then, I would put CotV in the SB.
2 Wort main seems too much.
1 Piledriver is bad (in my opinion)
Think 24 lands is too much.
Donīt like 4 Warren's md (my meta has too much goblins)
Side is very weird.
What I like, was the Mogg Fanatics of the board. I have recently started testing my built without them, and not complaining so far. (meta without Ichorid, though with lots of goblins).

nickrit2000's comment, I think, should be ignorated, since calling people "noob" is not really an argument.

Shriekmaw
10-24-2008, 12:04 PM
I'm sorry, did you just call me a 'noob'? I play this game for over 10 years and have won and T8-ed many tournaments I play.



My disagreement isn't with you in particular, but many magic players. A lot of players don't playtest certain cards and just make stupid comments. Even though I don't board it a lot, whenever I do its been pretty amazing to say the least, thats why its in the board as a 2 of.

If you want to run a mono-red goblins deck, then why wouldn't you play the full 8 fetches in it as the posted stated above? Your not going to actually play 14 mountains, are you? I understand building decks on budget concerns, but sometimes you have to spend a little money. I would just focus on building 1 deck, but build it well.

Side Note: Just because you played this game for over 10 years does not make you good. Where exactly are you winning or top 8'ing tournaments?

kicks_422
10-24-2008, 12:51 PM
Well, 8 fetchlands just for deck thinning doesn't really help much. The life loss sometimes becomes relevantly bad for you, which is magnified if all you're getting with them are Mountains.

Seriously
10-24-2008, 12:57 PM
I play 22 lands: 14 Mountain, 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Ports and I don't have any problem with the mana base.

would you ever run fetchlands in a mono red version, just for thinning ? or is that not needed with ringleader just putting the nongoblin cards on the bottom of the library ?

Shriekmaw
10-24-2008, 01:03 PM
would you ever run fetchlands in a mono red version, just for thinning ? or is that not needed with ringleader just putting the nongoblin cards on the bottom of the library ?


The answer is Yes. I used to play mono-red back in 2005 when I went to GP: Philly. I played all 8 fetchlands with a mana base of 23 lands.

The fetchlands are very important in order to draw threats by thinning the deck. It may not seem like a big deal, but the more you playtest the more you will see how of a big deal it is. It also improves ringleader. When you hit 4 mana which is optimal in goblins, you don't want to see any more land, but rather threats.

I think fetchlands are always necessary, it doesn't matter what version of goblins you are running.

Tacosnape
10-24-2008, 01:30 PM
@Nick: That was 2005. This is now. This is the era where Burn and Goyf Sligh-type decks are actually played. The life total arguably matters more now. Whether it's enough to warrant including/not including the fetchlands is up for debate, but the terrain's a little different. Although you could make the counter-argument that almost nobody plays Stifle anymore, which makes the fetches better.

Personally, assuming my Mono-Red build ran no maindeck cards besides Aether Vial that weren't Goblins, I wouldn't run the fetchlands. I'd run my 14 Mountains and my 8 Mana Denial Lands and go with it. It's worth noting that with Relic of Progenitus being the new awesome sideboard card for yard hate that it's a lot easier to keep a Tarmogoyf shrunk with Relic's first ability when you aren't putting fetchlands into your -own- graveyard.

Shriekmaw
10-24-2008, 01:42 PM
@Nick: That was 2005. This is now. This is the era where Burn and Goyf Sligh-type decks are actually played. The life total arguably matters more now. Whether it's enough to warrant including/not including the fetchlands is up for debate, but the terrain's a little different. Although you could make the counter-argument that almost nobody plays Stifle anymore, which makes the fetches better.



In 2005 burn was pretty big, especially in the GP. A lot of players that didn't play legacy played in that event. So you saw a lot of ports from extended and that included RG/Zoo variants along with burn. Those matchups are bad for goblins already, I don't think if you play with or without fetchlands are going to make that big of difference in the long hall.

Plus, you don't want to be drawing land after the first few initial turns. You want to be drawing threats in order to end the game. No fetches will include bigger land clumps in the deck which will lead to inconsistency.

If we go to the current year 2008 then mono-red should not be considered. This is the era of fetches and multi color decks. I think the R/b/g version is the best, but thats just my opinion. The time for Rishardan Port has also ended.

Tacosnape
10-24-2008, 02:08 PM
Plus, you don't want to be drawing land after the first few initial turns. You want to be drawing threats in order to end the game.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Goblins rarely runs into situations where it can't find ways to spend its mana, thanks in large part to Ringleader and Matron refilling hands, the fact that we run 5-drops, and the fact that said 5-drop has a :1::r: activated ability that's always nice to be using. I very often want to be topdecking land to maximize using what I have in my hand, and I find I'm very often on the end of "More cards in hand than I can play" rather than "More mana than I can spend."


No fetches will include bigger land clumps in the deck which will lead to inconsistency.

True, but not to as large of a degree as you make it sound. The Ringleader argument is a good one, but deckthinning just to deckthin is highly overrated, especially in a deck that can afford to be hitting midgame land drops.


If we go to the current year 2008 then mono-red should not be considered.

Mostly agree with this point. I think Mono-Red can still win and I think it has its strengths, but I don't think it's optimal. Mono Red lost a lot of consideration way back when Tin-Street Hooligan got printed, in my opinion. Warren Weirding made black a decent option as well.


This is the era of fetches and multi color decks. I think the R/b/g version is the best, but thats just my opinion. The time for Rishardan Port has also ended.

I disagree with the Port assessment, as I stil win a ridiculous amount of games from Port alone, but in three-color builds I agree it needs to go. Stability in the manabase is important, and basic Mountains are pretty tech.

b4r0n
10-24-2008, 08:39 PM
I disagree with the Port assessment, as I stil win a ridiculous amount of games from Port alone, but in three-color builds I agree it needs to go. Stability in the manabase is important, and basic Mountains are pretty tech.

I think Port still has a place in the deck regardless of whether the build is mono-, two-, or three-color. Even the with 8 colorless lands, a three-color manabase is still pretty stable. I also haven't found it to be that important to fetch basic Mountains... the only times that basic Mountains are truly relevant is the mirror, a matchup which is increasingly uncommon. No other deck that's running Wasteland can capitalize on its effect as well as Goblins can.

To stabilize the manabase, I'd be more inclined to run a 23rd land than to cut either Ports or colors.

Ectoplasm
10-25-2008, 05:54 AM
I ran ports in my RGB deck for a while and more often than not, I ended up with too much colourless mana and no, or too little coloured mana, so I decided to cut them entirely.
I don't know, it just seems to hurt you more often than help. I can see them being played in RB or mono-red though, but in my humble opinion they shouldn't be in a 3-colour deck, at least not if you're also running a set of wasteland (which you should be doing anyway).

Zinch
10-25-2008, 07:28 AM
The answer is Yes. I used to play mono-red back in 2005 when I went to GP: Philly. I played all 8 fetchlands with a mana base of 23 lands.

The fetchlands are very important in order to draw threats by thinning the deck. It may not seem like a big deal, but the more you playtest the more you will see how of a big deal it is. It also improves ringleader. When you hit 4 mana which is optimal in goblins, you don't want to see any more land, but rather threats.

I think fetchlands are always necessary, it doesn't matter what version of goblins you are running.

Yeah, as Tacosnape said that was 2005, now is 2008. Then the only non basic hate was the wastelands in the goblins deck, now you have to fight against wastelands in goblins, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh,aggro loam,dreadstill,landstill,... stifles in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, dreadstill and landstill(very commons in my area) and blood moon from dragon stompy. As you can see, with a mono color base you ignore the wastelands and blood moon, and without the fetches you are inmune to stifle (that, in other hand, are played in hard match ups).

For the issue of deck thinning, 2 points:
1.- It's overrated: you have to see 2-3 fetchlands early to really change the land density in your deck, loosing 2-3 lifes in the process (a very bad thing). And you cannot crack a fetchland after a ringleader or you'll come back to the beggining density.

2.- It's totaly unneeded: You say that 4 lands is all you need. That's totaly wrong. Don't you play SGC? Against dazes, won't wait you until the 5th land to play your ringleaders in a large number of situtations? Against wastelands and ports, you need 5 lands to play the ringleades, and 6 for the SGC...

In the tests I made, only 1-2 of 50 matches I find myself with lands and anything to do with them. This deck is very very mana hungry

Note that I have the fetchalnds and the duals, is not a budget issue. I've tested the three versions (RB, RBG and Mono Red) and I think that the consistency of the mono red is worth its weaker sideboard (more knowing that nowadays people don't play dedicated goblin hate in their SB, and any version is as weak as monored to pyroclasm...)

ScatmanX
10-27-2008, 08:58 AM
About Piroclasm, the black splash does have an upside against it, called Mad Auntid, that can regen herself, saving other 2 thoughness (3 with her) creatures.

Regarding the mana issue, I am usually hapy to draw a land. Creatures come to you by Matron, Ringleader. And with Gempalm, you have 3-4 more draw spells in your deck.

I think fetch, for just thinning, is bad. Risking a stifle, and paying lots of life per game, is not a good deal, specially when you do it afeter a Ringleader, that puts lands in the botom of your library, and you risk that they will come up again. In a splash, of course, they're indespensable.

Mantis
10-27-2008, 09:28 AM
I went up to 24 land after the thread about few manasources in the Format discussion. It has been treating me well as now I can actually afford to use my Ports and Wasteland and not rely so heavily on Vial and Lackey to use my cards. I can see mono R perhaps using one land less, but still I think it's a good thing to have land this allows me to actually outplay my opponent.

I actually cut Mad Auntie because it doesn't help against Clasm. Auntie dies to Clasm and then your other Goblins die too. Nobody plays Plague anymore so that's not a problem either. And let's get real, when are you ever going to Matron for it? Wouldn't you rather have Ringleader post Clasm? If you are anticipating on Clasm, just fetch out Ringleader and keep some Goblins in your hand. The black splash is basically there for just Warren Weirding, that card is insane and you need it against Goyf, you can't afford to wait out a Goyf and watch your opponent gain control over the game again. Earwig Squad, Wort and Therapy/Seize are a nice bonus.

Shriekmaw
10-27-2008, 05:04 PM
Yeah, as Tacosnape said that was 2005, now is 2008. Then the only non basic hate was the wastelands in the goblins deck, now you have to fight against wastelands in goblins, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh,aggro loam,dreadstill,landstill,... stifles in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, dreadstill and landstill(very commons in my area) and blood moon from dragon stompy. As you can see, with a mono color base you ignore the wastelands and blood moon, and without the fetches you are inmune to stifle (that, in other hand, are played in hard match ups).



I am not worried the least bit about facing opposing wastelands or stifles. You play 23 land in the deck with the 2 most powerful cards in the format that cost 1 mana, thats goblin lackey and aether vial. The deck does require a lot of mana, but with those 8 cards you cheat that requirement very well. I can't tell you how many times I would throw a hand back if it didn't have ether a Aether Vial or a Goblin Lackey.

As for Dreadstill, Threshold, and Dragon Stompy those are all good matchups that I would love to face all the time. Aggro Loam and Landstill can be 50/50 at best, Aggro Loam is by far the worse matchup that was cited above.

I guess I might have to right a long article about my 3 color version of the deck and how I believe its superior to all the other builds. You might be able to get away with just playing black in your meta, but in a large scale tournament, it would be very risky with no outs to artifacts or enchantments. Thats why I like the 3 color version.

Ectoplasm
10-27-2008, 07:03 PM
About Piroclasm, the black splash does have an upside against it, called Mad Auntid, that can regen herself, saving other 2 thoughness (3 with her) creatures.

Regarding the mana issue, I am usually hapy to draw a land. Creatures come to you by Matron, Ringleader. And with Gempalm, you have 3-4 more draw spells in your deck.

I think fetch, for just thinning, is bad. Risking a stifle, and paying lots of life per game, is not a good deal, specially when you do it afeter a Ringleader, that puts lands in the botom of your library, and you risk that they will come up again. In a splash, of course, they're indespensable.

Mad Auntie cannot regenerate itself, because it says 'another target goblin'.

Dino
10-27-2008, 08:48 PM
Where I agree with you that the 3color build is the strongest, i still think that having ports is very good/necessary in goblins. Cutting an opponent off a color or putting them back a turn is so good alongside a vial and/or lackey

kicks_422
10-27-2008, 09:18 PM
Yeah, but what if running Ports cuts YOU off of colors? I think that would be worse, since the deck is very mana-hungry.

Port functions great when you have an active Vial or an unmolested Lackey. It's mediocre at best when you have neither.

ScatmanX
10-28-2008, 06:40 AM
Sorry, I missread Mad Auntie...=/

So, how are we with the lands now?
From what I can see, it goes something like this:

MonoRed:
21-22 lands
4 wastes
4 ports

RB:
22-23 lands
4 wastes
2-3 ports

RBg:
23-24 lands
4 wastes
0-2 ports

I've just started playing RB, running 4 ports, so I'm wondering: does upping the land count doesen't make the coloress mana one smaller issue? Because you go from 21 to 24, while the cmc of the spells doesen't vary, so cutting the ports doesen't look necessary for me. (I know that we need to be able to use different colors, but how many duals are we looking to have on the boards here? How many green spells can we play in one turn?)

This next month Iīm planning on buying 4 ports, so I want to reaaly understand this issue, before I make one useless investment, by not using them after all.

Mantis
10-28-2008, 07:40 AM
After a night of testing I have found that 24 lands is too much. 23 is probably the right number, but I'm not sure. I still like Port a lot, it has won me games against combo by stalling their mana and put Goblins into play through Vial or Lackey. I can understand the concerns about Port, but to me it's a land that taps for mana and it's a huge deal of tempo advantage if you have got an active Lackey or Vial.

I'm curious as I haven't played against Aggro Loam so far, what's the plan against that deck? Preboard I'd guess you just want to get a Wort + Warren Weirding active or you bury them under Goblins (always a good plan). Postboard, you bring in Relic of Progenitus and artifact hate (in my case Tinkerer). The artifact hate is to kill Chalice @ 1 mainly and it doubles against Mox Diamond, it can also wipe out potential Pithing Needles. You really need Relic and Vial in this matchup so having an answer to Chalice @ 1 seems necessary. I'd take out Fanatic x 4, a Siege-Gang and something else for the 6 cards.

Also I would like to note how it's possible to kill Goyf with Relic + Sharpshooter. You do the following, put Relic's tap ability on the stack, put Sharpshooter on the stack then put the sac ability on the stack. What happens is the Goyf gets 0/1 it then gets one dmg from Sharpshooter, they sac a fetch in resp and it gets removed so it will still die. Too bad this doesn't work with Fanatic.

EDIT: About the SB: which card is better against combo; Pyrostatic Pillar, Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize? I would think Pyrostatic Pillar although it may just be too slow. Note that I already play Chalice x4.

Does Chalice come in against any other matchups then combo btw? I have thought about bringing it in against Threshold but I think I'd rather have more Goblins there. I would side in Relic against Threshold, is this correct?

kicks_422
10-28-2008, 10:32 AM
I mentioned Chalice being such a house against all the Zoo decks cropping up, and Burn. Turn 1 Vial, Turn 2 Chalice at 1 just wins.

There's really nothing much that the deck can do against combo. Devoting 8 SB cards makes you weaker to other match-ups. I'd rather just slip in the 4 Chalice SB and pray I don't face those.

Rood
10-28-2008, 10:38 AM
I mentioned Chalice being such a house against all the Zoo decks cropping up, and Burn. Turn 1 Vial, Turn 2 Chalice at 1 just wins.

There's really nothing much that the deck can do against combo. Devoting 8 SB cards makes you weaker to other match-ups. I'd rather just slip in the 4 Chalice SB and pray I don't face those.

Funny that you say that because that exact senerio just happened to me over MWS.

ScatmanX
10-28-2008, 11:23 AM
I think we might be able to do better against combo than just 4xChallice. Maybe thoughtseize, I don't know. Do anyone board in any other cards?

Mantis, Relic is, hands down, the best corolles SB card against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, really. I had 2, now I have 3 in the SB, because it proven itself to be amazing.
Challice should be sided in agaist ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. I really need to test this out more, but i think that, taking 4 fanatics wouldent hurt you very much, and they have way more 1cc spells tha we do. Maybe even setting it for 2 later is doable. we lose piledriver, tinkerer, Warres. They lose Goyf, CB, Daze... i like the idea, but then again, really need to test it more.

Mantis
10-28-2008, 12:08 PM
I just board in 4 Relic against Threshold I think and if they play with CB/Top, Dreadnought or Factory I'll board in 1 or 2 Tinkerers as well. I'm not sure Chalice is powerful enough to be boarded in against Threshold, it makes your deck less coherent and really lacks synergy with the rest of the deck. I mean if you set Chalice at 1 and you topdeck a Relic afterwards you slap yourself to the head.

ScatmanX
10-28-2008, 12:15 PM
Yeah, I'm sure Challice has its downsides, but what I'm tryign to figure is if the downside of Treshhold makes worth playing it (read: Brainstorm, SDT, Ponder, Mongoose, Stifle, STP, Bolt x Vial, Relic).

Mantis
10-28-2008, 12:17 PM
I've seen versions without Mogg Fanatic and I was just making a list of matchups and my SB plan and found that I took out Fanatic in just about all of the matches. It only shines against Ichorid to be honest and it's pretty good with Sharpshooter, but is that really enough to warrant it's inclusion? I've seen other people doubt it too and just seen two lists that didn't include it. Does smoothing the curve make up for the lack in power?

ScatmanX
10-28-2008, 12:32 PM
Err... I'm not playin mogg fanatic's right now also. From what I see, only 1 Ichorid in my meta. Not missing them so far.

Well, this is another reason to run Challice. 1 less card to lose from it at 1.

Shriekmaw
10-28-2008, 12:53 PM
Err... I'm not playin mogg fanatic's right now also. From what I see, only 1 Ichorid in my meta. Not missing them so far.

Well, this is another reason to run Challice. 1 less card to lose from it at 1.


I think mogg fanatics are necessary, one of the better goblins that they printed. I would not play less than 4 in my deck. Mogg Fanatic has so many uses in almost all your matchups, and it at least does 1 point of damage, usually more.

This is my strategy against Threshold when it comes to Chalice. If I'm on the play in games 2 & 3, I would board chalice in, but if I'm on the draw then chalice stays in the sideboard. The main reason for this is because when they are going first, they are already ahead in tempo and you usually have to play around daze.

Mostly, Chalice comes in against storm combo along with cabal therapy in the board which is better than thoughtseize since its a 2 for 1.

The relic is interesting, but I would still play tormod's crypt because its stronger against Ichorid. The most important thing to do is to stop them within in the first few turns so you make them play the long game.

ScatmanX
10-28-2008, 01:32 PM
I think that, in my meta, I'll most miss Fanatics in the mirror match, since they're great against 1st turn Lackey, and Sharpshooters, but I don't think they'll be getting back so soon.

Liked the idea. If you lose G 1 or 2, can board in Challice G 2 or 3.

Justin
10-29-2008, 11:28 PM
I think that Fanatics are probably worth keeping in the main deck, although I do find myself boarding them out a lot. They aren't that good against some of the most popular decks in the format, such as Thresh and Landstill. Still, they are excellent in the mirror and against Ichorid. They are also nice for taking out dark confidant, which Aggro Loam, Fish, and others tend to play.

I've been playing Choke in my sideboard because it really hoses blue decks such as Thresh, Landstill, and others. However, I never see anybody trying it in top eight lists. I guess people think it's too expensive, but it's nasty if it resolves.

Citrus-God
10-29-2008, 11:57 PM
I think that Fanatics are probably worth keeping in the main deck, although I do find myself boarding them out a lot. They aren't that good against some of the most popular decks in the format, such as Thresh and Landstill. Still, they are excellent in the mirror and against Ichorid. They are also nice for taking out dark confidant, which Aggro Loam, Fish, and others tend to play.

I've been playing Choke in my sideboard because it really hoses blue decks such as Thresh, Landstill, and others. However, I never see anybody trying it in top eight lists. I guess people think it's too expensive, but it's nasty if it resolves.

Or you can run Boil... It's an instant and works when they tap out for that FoF. Lulz. Also, Instants rawk. Price of Progress is awesome too.

ScatmanX
10-30-2008, 02:08 PM
If you play green, Root Maze (thanks for the correction) is probably a better choice over Boil. If you drop it T1 aginast a combo, that has 1 or 2 fetches in their hands, they'll lose about 2-4 turns just to it. It's great. If you want to run Boil, it's completly different, and I think, unecessary qhen you look at your Wastelands and Ports.

About the Fanatics, I still need to test more without them, but the deck is running preety smoothly Fanaticless.

J.V.
10-30-2008, 03:07 PM
With the rise of combo what have people been running in there sideboards?
I've been playing this lately:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize (I'm not sure which one I like better yet)

Zinch
10-30-2008, 03:12 PM
If you play green, Choke is probably a better choice over Boil. If you drop it T1 aginast a combo, that has 1 or 2 fetches in their hands, they'll lose about 2-4 turns just to it. It's great. If you want to run Boil, it's completly different, and I think, unecessary qhen you look at your Wastelands and Ports.

About the Fanatics, I still need to test more without them, but the deck is running preety smoothly Fanaticless.

I think you are talking about root maze. Choke costs 3 mana and don't care abaout the fetches...

Media314r8
10-30-2008, 03:22 PM
I like my sideboard versatile.

Rb Goblins SB:

SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sledder
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 1 [10E] Goblin King
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

Thorn comes in against control as well as combo, and I started running 3x Earwigs and 1x piledriver in place of the set of drivers. Leyline is all the hate you'll need against loam decks coupled with a fast clock and tutorable edicts. Leylines + MB fanatics + sledder makes ichorid winnable, and sledder also turns off jittes and wins long standoffs while making propaganda more managable. I used to run a tutorable Goblin Settler in the board back when tabernacle (and Glacial Chasm!) saw some play, and he would also come in against the occasional stronghold. IMO 7 pieces of grave hate is overkill, as we have guys that will give their lives to trade with an ichorid and a 'moeba while RFGing bridges. I don't run Green for K grip, so I run two mad aunties main alongside a tinkerer, (auntie can regen tinkerer vs arts bigger than dreadnaughts or needles, and tinkerer doesnt suck through vial or with 'chief in play) and keep the other two aunties and a king to bring in against decks packing E Plague (though it's less prominant) and vs thresh in place of 'squads.

Pyrostatic Pillar should really only be run in mono-red goblins, and IMO thorn is still the better card, as it takes them 3 mana to wish for an answer and 2 mana to kill it while with pillar, if you hurt yourself with it too much, they can feesably go for a low storm tendrils to finish you. (plus thorn helps vs control and burn, whereas pillar is more narrow)

Rood
10-30-2008, 04:46 PM
This is the list I've been running with alot of success

// Lands
3 [6E] Mountain (2)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [A] Badlands
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [FNM] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

I think Piledriver still warrants to be included as a 3x. I like the SB seeing as storm combo is huge right now. The Ports being in here haven't been an issue yet pertaining to getting colored screwed.

Illissius
10-30-2008, 05:05 PM
Didn't Chalice+Pillar stop being enough to deal with combo decks something like two years ago?