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ScatmanX
10-30-2008, 07:17 PM
The deal is not just Pillar and/or Challice, but them with a 4-5 turn clock that makes them good.


Zinch, thanks for correcting me. Root Maze is thecard I was talking about. Choke I don't like.

Forbiddian
10-30-2008, 07:38 PM
Didn't Chalice+Pillar stop being enough to deal with combo decks something like two years ago?

Didn't combo decks start caring about life something like two weeks ago?

Eldariel
10-30-2008, 07:41 PM
Didn't combo decks start caring about life something like two weeks ago?

They still use the Ill-Gotten Gains-kill against non-blue decks.

Tacosnape
10-30-2008, 11:50 PM
Didn't Chalice+Pillar stop being enough to deal with combo decks something like two years ago?

Agreed with Illissius. And that's being way generous, IMO. Pyrostatic Pillar never had business being run in any sideboard of any Legacy deck ever. Still doesn't. Pyrostatic Pillar is to Legacy sideboards what Raging Goblin is to Standard. There is always a better choice.

Vial Goblins is a glass cannon. It's always been a glass cannon. It always will be a glass cannon. It loses to Storm Combo. You can add 11 slots to make it not lose to Storm Combo, and then you'll wonder why you start losing a lot more matches you'd otherwise be pretty favored against.

The most successful way I've found to deal with the Storm Combo threat is to run seven to eight discard in the sideboard. I'm not recommending you do this. I'm just saying. Take a sideboard like

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Pithing Needle/Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus

And you'll be left with answers to everything. Not good answers per se, but answers. Enough discard to still be unfavored against combo to the same degree you will be with Chalice and Pillar, and with random answers to Plague and shit.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, anyone running Crypt/Leyline? -X of those, +X Relic of Progenitus. You really don't have a valid argument not to.

EDIT II: @Rood: How's the complete lack of Gempalm Incinerators working out for you? Do you miss them? Or do you just accept the suckage in the Goblin Mirror and find it sails more smoothly everywhere else?

Rood
10-31-2008, 12:36 AM
EDIT II: @Rood: How's the complete lack of Gempalm Incinerators working out for you? Do you miss them? Or do you just accept the suckage in the Goblin Mirror and find it sails more smoothly everywhere else?

I've been rediculousy happy not running any Gempalm Incinerators maindeck. I've never been too much of a fan of the inclusion ever since everybody started going Goyf happy in every deck imaginable. The fact I run 4x Siege makes Weirding rediculously good because it enables Lackey connection way moreso then Gempalm ever will. Believe it or not I'm actually 2-0 in Goblin mirror matches mainly because I just out-siege bang them =]. He's so rediculously good in the mirror and alot of lists don't run 4x, although I'm not sure why.

ScatmanX
10-31-2008, 11:23 AM
"He's so rediculously good in the mirror and alot of lists don't run 4x, although I'm not sure why."

Because a hand with 2-3, without Lackey, is not that cood. I'm currently at 3, thnking that's enough.
Your creature removal set consist in 4 Warren's W.? no SB slots?
I'm scared to do that, since there ara much more Goblins here than ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and cia. Do you think is viable trying that in a meta like this?

Shriekmaw
10-31-2008, 01:25 PM
I've been rediculousy happy not running any Gempalm Incinerators maindeck. I've never been too much of a fan of the inclusion ever since everybody started going Goyf happy in every deck imaginable. The fact I run 4x Siege makes Weirding rediculously good because it enables Lackey connection way moreso then Gempalm ever will. Believe it or not I'm actually 2-0 in Goblin mirror matches mainly because I just out-siege bang them =]. He's so rediculously good in the mirror and alot of lists don't run 4x, although I'm not sure why.


A lot of people don't run Seige-Gang as a 4 of because they cost 5 mana. I'm very happy with my list which includes 2 Gempalms. I couldn't play goblins without having 1 Gemplam in the deck. They are still very good removal and they draw you a card.

The basic differences between the deck that you run and my goblins deck is the following:

Land

+1 Mountain
+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Taiga
-4 Rishadan Port


+2 Gempalm Incinerator
+1 Goblin Sharpshooter
-1 Warren Wierding
-2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB

+3 Cabal Therapy
+2 Engineered Explosives
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Pyrostatic Pillar

I still like my version a lot and see no reason to change the list as of yet.

Rood
10-31-2008, 01:42 PM
A lot of people don't run Seige-Gang as a 4 of because they cost 5 mana. I'm very happy with my list which includes 2 Gempalms. I couldn't play goblins without having 1 Gemplam in the deck. They are still very good removal and they draw you a card.

The basic differences between the deck that you run and my goblins deck is the following:

Land

+1 Mountain
+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Taiga
-4 Rishadan Port


+2 Gempalm Incinerator
+1 Goblin Sharpshooter
-1 Warren Wierding
-2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB

+3 Cabal Therapy
+2 Engineered Explosives
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Pyrostatic Pillar

I still like my version a lot and see no reason to change the list as of yet.


The 4x Siege-bang have proved to be insane in testing...I've yet really to experience any trouble at all running 4. I can see why you'd want to drop the 4 Ports to stable the manabase, however Port really is still an insane card that has helped me win alot of matches just recently. I honestly have not had any trouble obtaining my R mana with maindecking 4 Ports, it's not really an issue at all. I think I will maindeck 1x Gempalm incinerator just to tutor for because he's fairly insane in alot of situations.

The Pillars do seem kinda janky but I've never really been a fan of Cabal Therapy in Goblins...most likely I'll run Jester's cap on legs :D.

Mantis
10-31-2008, 06:53 PM
I don't know, seems like Pillar will demolish storm combo pretty hard. The only thing they can do is go for IGG and then still that's going to cost them a large amount of life and time setting up and actually performing. If you can get a decent clock going and perhaps have some disruption in the form of Waste/Port that should do the trick I guess.

The full set of Siege Gangs seems kind of interesting, but don't they just clog up your hand most of the time? Piledriver fits the curve a whole lot better, even though Siege Gang is more powerful I would want the full set of Pileys just for the mana and Vialcurve.

Also, I placed Wort in the sideboard. It was never useful, nowhere near as useful as the Mad Auntie I'm currently running main is. Against which decks is Wort actually that good? It seems decent against Stax decks and against Threshold maybe as you can set up a Weirding/Wort lock. Otherwise it always got killed or I just didn't have the mana to use it.

Jaiminho
10-31-2008, 07:31 PM
I don't know, seems like Pillar will demolish storm combo pretty hard. The only thing they can do is go for IGG and then still that's going to cost them a large amount of life and time setting up and actually performing. If you can get a decent clock going and perhaps have some disruption in the form of Waste/Port that should do the trick I guess.

Maybe they got alternatives, such as going off before Pillar is on the board or ending with 1-3 life while killing you, discarding it with a first turn Duress/Thoughtseize, countering it or simply bouncing it EOT. IGG doesn't take much to setup, unless there's graveyard disruption in the way. Depending on the combo deck, it may force a response from them, but nothing that they can't already do. Combo is forced to deal with Counterbalance. Pillar is so much weaker than and as fast as that.

Mantis
10-31-2008, 08:07 PM
Maybe they got alternatives, such as going off before Pillar is on the board or ending with 1-3 life while killing you, discarding it with a first turn Duress/Thoughtseize, countering it or simply bouncing it EOT. IGG doesn't take much to setup, unless there's graveyard disruption in the way. Depending on the combo deck, it may force a response from them, but nothing that they can't already do. Combo is forced to deal with Counterbalance. Pillar is so much weaker than and as fast as that.
Take into account that most storm decks only run 1 copy of IGG, so they need to use a tutor to get it and then also have the appropriate cards in the GY to go off.. Also, an Ad Nauseum deck might end up on 1-3 life without Pillar, they need to deal with Pillar first before Ad Nauseum can be used. Sure they can bounce it EOT but that disrupts their combo as well as they need to use a tutor to find bounce and then use their bounce spell, losing 6 life in the process and also go off the following turn otherwise you just replay it.

I think dealing with Pillar is not easy for storm but there's nothing that can't be done. It's not failproof by any means and Pillar won't beat a godhand. Still it's one of the better spells we got. It's either this or discard assuming Chalice is mandatory.

Someone stated that Goblins has become a glass cannon in the present metagame and I might agree. So perhaps we should focus the sideboard on the other matches instead. However, I do believe that with a dedicated sideboard the combo match can be winnable, never in the 60+% range but winnable nonetheless.

kicks_422
10-31-2008, 11:56 PM
If you've ever played Tendrils combo, you'd know that Pillar is one of the SB cards that you WANT to see.

Rood
11-02-2008, 04:34 AM
I ruled Earwig Squad over Pillar in the board definetally because not only does it KO combo, but it also laughs at E-plague =]. Anyone else run a full set in the board or tested it before?

Media314r8
11-02-2008, 04:57 AM
I ruled Earwig Squad over Pillar in the board definetally because not only does it KO combo, but it also laughs at E-plague =]. Anyone else run a full set in the board or tested it before?

I run three squads main in place of drivers 2-4. I've been very happy with them, and once won against UGb thresh through two E Plagues with Wort and two squads (the first one took their E plagues 3-4, the second two tombstalkers to ensure that they/ wort would go the distance). They are rarely dead, and often can grab nasty things like moat, humility, deed, ect in game 1 as well as pound face.

Wort is good in the mid-late game, and as a one-of MD, I think is justifiable, in addition to random shenanigans like recurring incinerator or wierding. Fear is a huge boon nowadays, as bob, dreadnaught and TS are about the only things outside of sui-black that block her. (wastes and incinerators vs factories) Recurring chump-blocking demonic tutors every turn is also the bees-knees.

Ectoplasm
11-02-2008, 06:10 AM
I agree with the above sentiment on Wort. Apart from the obvious card-advantage, she randomly just wins games, through stuff like bringing back dead matrons/ringleaders. You can compare her a bit to the sharpshooter, she seems situational at first and she's a huge lightningrod in terms of spot removal, but the stuff you can pull off with her is just incredible and oftentimes gamebreaking.

She's also a pretty beefy beater with her 3/3 body plus evasion, surviving stuff like pyroclasm and setting you up to flood the board again straight afterwards.

Dunno why I wrote this, just some random Wort advertising I guess :) But I've been noticing people leaving her out of the MD which is in my opinion a mistake.

Rood
11-02-2008, 06:22 AM
I agree with the above sentiment on Wort. Apart from the obvious card-advantage, she randomly just wins games, through stuff like bringing back dead matrons/ringleaders. You can compare her a bit to the sharpshooter, she seems situational at first and she's a huge lightningrod in terms of spot removal, but the stuff you can pull off with her is just incredible and oftentimes gamebreaking.

She's also a pretty beefy beater with her 3/3 body plus evasion, surviving stuff like pyroclasm and setting you up to flood the board again straight afterwards.

Dunno why I wrote this, just some random Wort advertising I guess :) But I've been noticing people leaving her out of the MD which is in my opinion a mistake.

Maybe I'm playing Wort incorrectly but I dropped it for a 1x Gempalm incinerator because out of about 65-70 rounds I played with Gobz online everytime I drew Wort it either seemed like either win-more or I just wanted to play a Goblin Ringwinner/Siege Banger instead.

Mantis
11-02-2008, 07:07 AM
Is Earwig Squad fast enough to deal with Storm combo? Post side they are always going to start one game (or you 0-2 and then it doesn't matter anyway), that means they have 3 turns to combo out before Squad comes online.

Wort was so bad I replaced it. Every game I won, it just sat there in my hand doing nothing, I never Matroned for it and when I was losing it just got removed anyway. In the higher mana cost range, both Siege-Gang and Ringleader have immediate effect on the game, if they get removed the damage is already done. Additionally Wort and Relic of Progenitus are not synergy.

kicks_422
11-02-2008, 07:49 AM
Is Earwig Squad fast enough to deal with Storm combo?

It's not. It's not for Storm combo anyway. It can sometimes get in against a bad hand for them, but I wouldn't bank on that.

Like I said, if only Ethersworn Canonist were a Goblin. Or if there was a True Believer Goblin. Or a Meddling Mage Goblin. I can only hope.

Media314r8
11-02-2008, 10:03 AM
Squad can help against storm combo, but you need to buy turns, thats why you pack chalices. The great thing about squad is that it lets you know exactly how your opponent's deck works. If it doesn't have the igg loop, you can usually take their only tendrils and two burning wishes leaving them with only 2 ways to get their wincon (and four tutors to find those remaining two wishes.) while they're burning up their resources thrying to find them, hopefully you're bashing with your 5/3 to disable their AdNausuem, and the game is over if you get them to low enough life and have taken out their igg loop. Like I said, he is also useful for taking out deeds, e plagues, moats, humilities, ect against random decks and is often a 5/3 for 2B or even 1B. More versatile than driver, and trades with goyf just as often.

Ectoplasm
11-02-2008, 10:29 AM
Plopping down a squad against solitaire often means you win the game, since you can rip out their wincon right then and there. Against slower decks like The Rock it's just unfair because they rely on boardsweepers like Deed to keep you in check :) I play 1 in the side and I've been loving the squad.

Mantis
11-02-2008, 10:38 AM
I totally agree with one Squad in the SB (or MD). You would rather have some disruption such as Thoughtseize or Therapy to slow them down and then set up Matron --> Squad instead of having a Squad in your hand and losing on turn 2 to a Tendrills with storm = 10.

Media314r8
11-02-2008, 01:14 PM
I totally agree with one Squad in the SB (or MD). You would rather have some disruption such as Thoughtseize or Therapy to slow them down and then set up Matron --> Squad instead of having a Squad in your hand and losing on turn 2 to a Tendrills with storm = 10.

Discard in the MB of goblins has been discussed and dismissed for the same reason I don't like it in the side: Duress/Thoughtseize/therapy are not tribal goblins. I would rather play chalice at 0 and a lackey than not play a lackey and hope my discard spell gets there. IMO chalice + squad gives goblins enough of a chance to beat combo, and while discard IS sometimes relevant against other decks, why would you board out goblins for it, its not like anyone runs tividar's crusade anymore, and the only decks that run pyroclasm can wish for them.

Mantis
11-02-2008, 02:02 PM
I would run discard in the sideboard to have a shot against combo postboard. I already sideboard in 4 Chalice. I side in vastly different things against decks that have a gameplan that involves gaining control by Pyroclasm. I have 2 open slots which I want to spend on combo, I initially thought about Pyrostatic Pillar but the replies here were that it didn't work so I dropped that idea. So the choice is between either 2 Thoughtseize/Duress/Therapy or 2 Squad (I already run 1 Squad in the side).

I do agree with you that Chalice helps to slow down combo and Prowl Earwig Squad, but what if you do not draw Chalice and have an Earwig Squad in hand. Combo does what it's supposed to do on turn 2 and you never get a chance to play your Squad. Suppose that Squad was a discard spell, now you slow down combo a bit, then play Matron fetch Squad and play it next turn.

Also, discard is very good in general against combo as they keep a lot of hands that contain all mana accel and one bomb, or all bombs and few mana to cast it. Port/Waste + discard can temporarily lock them out of the game and give your men enough time to go the distance.

I do agree however that Squad is maybe even more versatile than discard is against a varity of decks for the reason that you don't want to side out a lot of Goblins. But I believe I have a fair shot against every deck out there besides combo. So if I play tight and get a bit lucky I can win every round except for combo, thus I need my sideboard slots to win those matches. The other approach is to just pray and hope you don't get to play combo (glass cannon) but I chose this one. Testing will hopefully show if I'm right about this assumption.

Citrus-God
11-02-2008, 02:09 PM
Port/Waste + discard can temporarily lock them out of the game and give your men enough time to go the distance.


Ports/Wastes used to lock them out of the game. Nowadays, you Port one of their lands, they tap for mana and float it to draw step; then they proceed to cast Rituals and crack their LED and just cast Ad Nauseum for like half their deck.

Mantis
11-02-2008, 05:33 PM
Ports/Wastes used to lock them out of the game. Nowadays, you Port one of their lands, they tap for mana and float it to draw step; then they proceed to cast Rituals and crack their LED and just cast Ad Nauseum for like half their deck.
If they have only 4 mana max or they want to use Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor or IGG it helps. Rishadan Port is not the ideal disruption component against combo as you pointed out, but it can help. At least, Port has helped me win me a few games against combo.

Rood
11-03-2008, 02:34 AM
The Earwig Squads have proven to be absolutely insane out of the board...I'm very impressed with them right now. People apparently either don't believe in Plague anymore or I am the luckiest person alive...had it dropped maybe twice out of all the rounds I've tested so far. I'm tempted to cut green entirely and just go strait RB...Grip is good but I really have not needed it at all in any of my matches

Media314r8
11-03-2008, 04:21 AM
I'm tempted to cut green entirely and just go strait RB...Grip is good but I really have not needed it at all in any of my matches

I'm currently runnig RB, but I can see the appeal of Tin street as a tutorable one-of alongside a singleton Taiga. I, however, am currently running 3/2 bannerets/warchiefs, as I find dropping banneret turn two allows for much for brokeness turn three, (and daze-proof matrons) while speeding up the deck. Hate is really only relevant when you have taken board control and are swinging for the win, we drop our important guys EOT through vial anyhow for insurance. Thus, tin street more often than not fails at doing anything, so I've opted for tinkerer in his place. I also don't have to worry about my one black source being wasted and cut off from mad auntie/wort/wierding mana because I fetched a Taiga for my tin street.

Glad the squads are working out for you.

Mantis
11-03-2008, 04:33 AM
Frogtosser Banneret sounds interesting as it fits your curve, and especially the Vial curve, a lot better than Warchief does. On the flip side, Warchief is much more powerful as it gives your guys haste. I will most definately give the Banneret a spin.

I've been thinking, if you run Earwig Squad in the side and the combo matchup becomes more prevalent, perhaps Skirk Prospector should be played in the main instead of Mogg Fanatic. He allows for a second turn Squad or for a third turn Squad with Matron. People have already talked about putting Fanatic in the board so perhaps Prospector is the ideal replacement. Additional pro's are: He's nuts with Sharpshooter, he's nuts against MUC as you can sac the creature they are attempting to steal in resp. and generate mana so you can get through Propaganda, he helps against manascrew allowing you to cast that much needed Warchief. Against Ichorid you lose the ability to destroy Ichorids and Moebas, but you gain infinite sac outlets to remove Bridges. However Fanatic is much, much better in combat.

Also, Null Rod could be good against combo? Not sure it's better than the other alternatives, but maybe something to look at as well.

Shimster
11-03-2008, 07:38 AM
Although I turned away from Goblins some time ago, I really fell in love with Earwig Squad.

What do current Rb lists look like?

// Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Earwig Squad
2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
3 Warren Weirding

I've got no more love for Mogg Fanatic, so I would really like to cut him and leave him in my Vintage TMWA. He's very good in there. :wink:

ScatmanX
11-04-2008, 04:43 AM
2 Fanatics is kind of meh. Leave 1 if you want the tech, and add 1 Sharpshooter main, cause with 3 Warren Weirding, and only 2 Gempalm, 2 Siege-Gang and 2 Fanatic, your mirror must not be good at all...

Shriekmaw
11-05-2008, 10:34 AM
2 Fanatics is kind of meh. Leave 1 if you want the tech, and add 1 Sharpshooter main, cause with 3 Warren Weirding, and only 2 Gempalm, 2 Siege-Gang and 2 Fanatic, your mirror must not be good at all...


I do not understand why you guys are so against Mogg Fanatic. This card is amazing as it pushes through a lot of damage over the coarse of a game. Its a must answer for a lot of decks that many players seem to under estimate.

I would not run less than 4 in a goblin deck that I would play. If you want to look for room in order to play Earwing Squad or a different goblin, I would look at other choices. Goblin piledriver comes to mind as its the first goblin I would think about cutting, since its only good with multiple goblins already in play.

If you go with just the R/B configuration, I would not play Frogtosser Banneret b/c he seems just too weak in a deck where quality matters, more so than speed.

If people don't play either plague or enchantments that you can't deal with, then by all means go with R/B, but in some metagames you can't get away with that.

ScatmanX
11-05-2008, 11:33 AM
I'm sorry if I haven't made myself clear. I just cut 1 Fanatic from that list, because he was running only 2, and i thought that he didn't liked it very much.

I'm currently trying to run 0 Fanatics, but I'm not trying to convince anyone to drop them. I'm only dooing this because in my meta there arent any dredge/ichorid, neither people running bob or other x/1 creatures worth killing. There is, nonetheless, lots of Mishra's Factories, regen dudes (lynx & boas), among others, so I'm trying something diferent.

I think that that list has too many Earwig Squad's. If you like it, run 2. Cutting a 3rd Siege-Gang for it, is not worth, in my opinion.

And, finally, I'm starting to get inclined in dropping 1 Piledriver (4 to 3), but still think that isn't going to be a good move...

StarHawk
11-06-2008, 01:42 PM
I'm playing r/b/g vial goblins and I need a little help with my deck.

Lands-22
4-wasteland
4-badland
4-taiga
4-mountain
4-bloodstained mire
2-wooded foothill

non-goblins-4
4-aether vial

goblins-34
4-mogg fanatic
4-goblin lackey
3-warren weirdling
3-goblin piledriver
1-tin street hooligan
4-goblin warchief
4-goblin matron
2-gempalm incinerator
1-goblin sharpshooter
4-goblin ringleader
2-wort bogart auntie
2-siege-gang commander

sideboard-15
4-leyline of the void
4-krosan grip
3-tin street hooligan
4-enginered explosives

One of the main differences between my deck and others is that I play less land, I play less siege-gangs (hence less land). I play only 3 piledrivers because I didn't know what else to cut. I really like the two wort bogart aunties because they help get recurring creature destruction. Against dragon stompy getting them down quick really helped me win by recuring warren weirdling. I would really like some help makeing my deck better.

ScatmanX
11-06-2008, 02:24 PM
I think 4 Krosan Grip + 4 EE is kind of too much, specially with 4 TSH total...

Shriekmaw
11-06-2008, 04:27 PM
I'm playing r/b/g vial goblins and I need a little help with my deck.

Lands-22
4-wasteland
4-badland
4-taiga
4-mountain
4-bloodstained mire
2-wooded foothill

non-goblins-4
4-aether vial

goblins-34
4-mogg fanatic
4-goblin lackey
3-warren weirdling
3-goblin piledriver
1-tin street hooligan
4-goblin warchief
4-goblin matron
2-gempalm incinerator
1-goblin sharpshooter
4-goblin ringleader
2-wort bogart auntie
2-siege-gang commander


Vial Goblins

4 Mountains
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren Weirdling
3 Goblin Piledriver
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Bogart Auntie
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Mega game depends on sideboard

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void

b4r0n
11-06-2008, 07:07 PM
1 Goblin Sharpshooter


Is there a particular reason why you run Sharpshooter? You seem to include it in most of your lists.

I'm currently running a very similar creature configuration to yours (-1 Sharpshooter, +1 SGC) and I haven't ever wished that I had Sharpshooter.

Rood
11-06-2008, 07:12 PM
I agree with the 4x fanatics, they are AMAZING for me alot of the time. I also run 3x Drivers because I think that's the correct number. But Sharpshooter is too situation dependant, I'd much rather run another Siege-banger in that slot because of just how powerful he is. I think 1x Gempalm is enough, good to tutor for. I still don't agree with the cutting of Port, very rarely do I experience the problem with getting the mana needed to play any of my Gobz.

Ectoplasm
11-07-2008, 05:00 AM
I wrote something on Sharpshooter about 2 pages back, but I'll echo the shorter version here: Sharpshooter looks highly situational, but the shenanigans you can pull off with him are worth investing a single slot into him. For starters, he can turn your fanatics into lightning bolts, he can hit random crap like bobs, witnesses, and BoPs, he can destroy tokens and together with SGC he can wreak some serious havoc. Getting rid of a hierarch for 1 red mana and 1 generic mana?

Shriekmaw
11-07-2008, 09:15 AM
Is there a particular reason why you run Sharpshooter? You seem to include it in most of your lists.

I'm currently running a very similar creature configuration to yours (-1 Sharpshooter, +1 SGC) and I haven't ever wished that I had Sharpshooter.


I agree that sometimes sharpshooter may not seem to be very good, but then again there are a lot of matchups where by having him in your deck allows you to control the game and just win. Also, since I have to play against byrant and his TES deck, it gives me an out game 1 if he goes with ETW. Since Nausem has been printed, ETW is less of a win condition in a lot of storm combo decks. There is always survival here in Syracuse which is another reason sharpshooter stays in the main deck in all of my lists.

I ran into a lot of color mana issues when running port in my 3 color version. If you don't really have to play against landstill, then port should not be played. If anyone remembers, thats why port was added to the deck orginially was b/c of all the landstill that was running around. It also makes it hard to play port when you have 3 colors in the deck.

asdljas
11-14-2008, 03:37 PM
You know, I've been running this mana configuration. I find that Volrath's Stronghold doesn't really hurt, and has been wonderful at times. I rarely get waste-locked, so the 2 mountains haven't been an issue, but I recognize it as an exposure.


4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Mantis
11-16-2008, 11:35 AM
Drow Slayer; I really don't think Volrath's Stronghold fits Goblins, as the deck is already very mana intensive you just don't have the mana to use Stronghold. Stronghold might have it's uses in rare situations but it just doesn't fit the focus of the deck; an extra Port is a lot better I think. Perhaps you can explain in which situations it is useful.

I went up to 4 Siege-Gang Commanders and that finally allowed me to run my 24th land without getting flooded too much. I am very happy with that change, because Siege Gang alone can swing the game in your favor when you are behind. This made me cut Goblin Tinkerer and one Warren Weirding from the maindeck so I'm still trying to figure out if only 2 Weirdings is correct or if I should make room for a third.

On Sharpshooter; I have 4 Siege Gang and 4 Fanatic thus it allows for some cute tricks. Also, it allows you to kill Goyf postboard with Relic of Progenitus even if they still have a fetchland on board, you can go; put tap ability of Relic on stack, then put Sharpshooter on the stack and then remove all GY's from game with Relic.

BKclassic
11-16-2008, 12:40 PM
Drow Slayer; I really don't think Volrath's Stronghold fits Goblins, as the deck is already very mana intensive you just don't have the mana to use Stronghold. Stronghold might have it's uses in rare situations but it just doesn't fit the focus of the deck; an extra Port is a lot better I think. Perhaps you can explain in which situations it is useful.


Admittedly having never tested Volrath's Stronghold and Goblins, I can't be sure, but I can imagine a few situation where it could be pretty sweet. Firstly, I am sure we can agree that Volrath's Stronghold plus an active Aether Vial would be game ending against almost everything, as long you have drawn anything good. Playing and sacing Seige-Gang at end of opponents turn to itself, Strongholding it on top of your library and doing it again would be tough for most decks to deal with. Secondly, no one would block your Ringleader or attack with a creature that could kill it, unless they were swinging for the win.

Obviously, Stronghold has some mid to late game applications and pretty much says, "for 2 mana at the end of an opponents turn draw only good cards for the rest of the game," which seems like a powerful ability. The question is, is the potential boon worth sacrificing more mana disruption. Port is obviously more inline with the decks game plan of winning quickly, but a Stronghold could be a game ending safety net. So I don't know, but it seems worthy of consideration.

Justin
11-16-2008, 08:21 PM
Volrath's Stronghold is an interesting idea. Of course, it stinks against combo decks and aggro decks. It's really only good against control decks or midrange decks. Another problem with Stronghold is that it often won't stay around long in a format where so many decks run a set of Wasteland. However, I could see it helping against some matchups. Maybe it's worth putting a single Stronghold into the sideboard for matches where it is favorable. A single card doesn't take up much space.

kicks_422
11-17-2008, 06:00 AM
A singeton without anyway to tutor for it isn't really worthy as a sideboard card. Also, since it's only good against control, I don't think it's really needed. Most forms of control decks are favorable match-ups anyway.

Like I said, what the deck really needs would be to solve (or at least even up) Goblins' match-up against combo. Any other innovation/deviation is just personal preference.

GreenOne
11-17-2008, 06:03 AM
Like I said, what the deck really needs would be to solve (or at least even up) Goblins' match-up against combo.

Or, alternatively, gain a 10% more games against Aggrocontrol and Aggro decks and just give up the combo matchup.

kicks_422
11-17-2008, 06:14 AM
Or, alternatively, gain a 10% more games against Aggrocontrol and Aggro decks and just give up the combo matchup.

That could work too, but I'd like it up by maybe 20%. :tongue:

I'm trying a new twist to Goblins... Chalice Gobs. It's still in preliminary testing, and results have been mixed. I'll post it when it's ready.

ScatmanX
11-18-2008, 12:08 PM
Volrath's Stronghold does seem nice, but that slot is already occuped by Rishadan Port. We can't afford another coroless producing land. 9 would be too much in a monoR list, and if you play more than 4 ina a 3 color list, those should be ports. Also, 1 Stronghold is a lot random, and you would'nt play 2.



Chalice Goblin looks a bit weird for me, once in this deck we have spells at 1cc, 2cc, 3cc, 4cc and 5cc.. but let us know what you came up with.=]

Mantis
11-22-2008, 10:08 AM
Recently I've been experiencing a few losses due to Warren Weirding not being optimal, for example one game my opponent had Nantuko Shade + Tombstalker. I had enough creatures to stall the Shade for quite some time, I drew Weirding as my last out, needless to say my opponent sacced Shade and just got in there with Tombstalker. This happened against Threshold as well with a Mongoose and a Mystic Enforcer. This got me thinking and led me to test out Swords to Plowshares, but that suffered from it's own set of problems namely that it makes you very poor against Chalice@1 and Ringleader and it also doesn't allow you to fetch up Weirding. I then tried out Terminate, it has a tough mana requirement but on the other hand it allows you to still play a singleton Weirding for Matron.

The pro's of Terminate: Instant speed (manlands, equipment) and it allows you to target and shoot down the most feared creature.
The con's: Steep mana requirement, not a Goblin (Warchief, Ringleader), doesn't work against Mongoose and Enforcer.

I know I do like the black splash more than the white splash as I can still run a Weirding that way to tutor up with Matron. Although the white splash opens up for enchantment removal at the same time.

I hope to receive some feedback on this matter as it's occupying my mind for the last couple of days and I just can't come to the conclusion which approach is better. I think 2/3 Terminate, 1 Warren Weirding is the way to go.

GreenOne
11-22-2008, 10:12 AM
I'd play Snuff Out over Terminate all day, but maybe there are too black critters in your meta.

Did anyone ever test a Rbw version? It could play both Swords to Plowshares and Warren Weirding, as well as SB Vindicate as a catch-all answer.

Mantis
11-22-2008, 10:26 AM
Right that completely slipped my mind. Snuff Out could actually be good, although it can't kill Tombstalker, that's a huge con. It puts less strain on the mana so that's a good thing, I will have to see the free casting cost will actually be relevant enough to justify the life loss and not being able to hit Tombstalker. If I go with that I will need some sideboard answers to black creatures though.

I actually thought about a RBW or RGW version too, it could be pretty good indeed. I'm not sure if Vindicate is as good as it looks, if you want to run that you certainly have to cut Rishadan Port. Maybe Vindicate could even be maindeck material as without Port it can fill up the landdestruction niche Port holds.

Illissius
11-22-2008, 03:33 PM
I love Snuff Out, but I'm not seeing how it would help your situation. Of the four creatures you mentioned, it kills exactly none of them.

Justin
11-23-2008, 03:42 PM
Recently I've been experiencing a few losses due to Warren Weirding not being optimal, for example one game my opponent had Nantuko Shade + Tombstalker. I had enough creatures to stall the Shade for quite some time, I drew Weirding as my last out, needless to say my opponent sacced Shade and just got in there with Tombstalker. This happened against Threshold as well with a Mongoose and a Mystic Enforcer. This got me thinking and led me to test out Swords to Plowshares, but that suffered from it's own set of problems namely that it makes you very poor against Chalice@1 and Ringleader and it also doesn't allow you to fetch up Weirding. I then tried out Terminate, it has a tough mana requirement but on the other hand it allows you to still play a singleton Weirding for Matron.

The pro's of Terminate: Instant speed (manlands, equipment) and it allows you to target and shoot down the most feared creature.
The con's: Steep mana requirement, not a Goblin (Warchief, Ringleader), doesn't work against Mongoose and Enforcer.

I know I do like the black splash more than the white splash as I can still run a Weirding that way to tutor up with Matron. Although the white splash opens up for enchantment removal at the same time.

I hope to receive some feedback on this matter as it's occupying my mind for the last couple of days and I just can't come to the conclusion which approach is better. I think 2/3 Terminate, 1 Warren Weirding is the way to go.


I'm inclined to think that Warren Weirding is still the best way to go. Just because you had a couple games in which your Weirdings were sub-optimal, it doesn't mean that they are not the best removal spell for goblins. Against Threshold, Weirding is clearly the best you are going to get. It's the only card that deals with Mongoose, which is a very annoying goblin eater. When your opponent has a Mongoose and Enforcer on the board at the same time, you are screwed whether you are playing Weirding, Terminate, Snuff Out, etc. Plowshares is your only good removal there, but you noted its drawbacks as well. I supposed that in a meta that is heavy with goblins and light on threshold, terminate might be the better choice.

ScatmanX
11-23-2008, 06:12 PM
I just got back from a 40+ people tournament, and would like to share the report:

Decklist:

5 – Mountains
1 – Swamp (never hurted me)
4 – Wastelands
2 – Rishadan Port
4 – Bloodstained Mire
1 – Wooded Foothills (only got 1)
4 – Badlands

4 – Goblin Lackey
4 – Goblin Warchief
4 – Goblin Matron
4 – oblin Piladriver
3 – Frogtosser Banerret
3 – Gempalm Incinerator
3 – Goblin Ringleader
2 – Siege-Gang Commander
1 – Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 – Goblin Sharpshooter
1 – Goblin Tinkerer
1 – Mad Auntie

4 – Aether Vial
2 – Warren Weirding
2 – Nameless Inversion

SB:
1 – Goblin King (never used)
1 – Lightning Crafter (never used)
1 – Earwig Squad (great)
1 – Goblin Pyromancer
1 – Warren Weirding (to be explained)
2 – Meekstone
3 – Relic o Progenitous
3 – Shatering Spree
2 – Pyroknesis

I was hoping to play against lots of goblins, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, it’s the fear and Stiflenaught. Goblins were the reason only 2 Warren MD, and 2 Nameless Inversion. But what I found was this:

1 – Mono b Fearies (2-0)
2 - BG Agro (2-0)
3 - UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (2-0)
4 - Belcher (1-2)
5 - UGB Landstill (2-0)
6 – Ichorid (1-2)

Fearies:
Easy matchup. Got lots of goblins and won before he could recover. Only cards I saw were Vendilion Clique and Spellstuter Sprite (Best cads: Ports and Gempalms) Second round was the same thing. None took me more than 5 rounds.

BG – Agro
Went smoothly. I started with vial and lackey. He started (won the dice) with Goyf and Pernicious Act. When he blew Act I cycled Gempalm took out goyf (wad frogtosser already too), and started to rebuild with warchief and Ringleader. T5 he dropped another Act, but had to blow it for 2 due to Frogtosser and Pileriver. But then T6 I swinging with Matrons+Warchiefs+Ringleaders for the win.

2nd game he land go, I land Lackey, he land Diabolic Edict, I wasteland his Bayou. He never again gets a 2nd land (ps: that Bayou was he only nonbasic non fetch land of his deck).=]

UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
Tuff one. We both empty our resources. Middle game he has a Meddling Mage (naming ringleader) and a morph card. I have Vial@3, Frogtosser, Matron and Mad Auntie. He’s down to 3. His turn he flip an Exalted Angel (I go down to 13). For 3 turns we trade swings (he wins 4 life on his turn, then looses 4 on mine), but then he brainstorms and gets a Goyf. My last turn I draw a matron. He with 7 life and with 2 untapped dudes. I search and cast matron (for 2 mana) get another matron, get another matron, and get the last one, getting Warchief with her, who comes down trough Vial, and I swing for the game.

Second game I lay a 1 lackey, he takes it with Mind Harness. I drop 2nd land, and 2 other lackeys. T3, one lackey hit’s him, and I drop Siege-Gang, and Earwig squad with prowl, removing 3 goyfs. The other goyf was killed by Warren. The game is soon over after that.

( He leaves the table calling me lucky, and don’t even look at me the rest of the day)

Belcher
1st Game is ridiculous. He does nothing for 4 turns, and I kill him.
2nd Game I have 2 Pyroknesis in hand, but he Charbelchers me on T3 for the game.
3rd Game, he combos in his 1st turn for 12 goblin tokens, while I have 2 Shattering Spree in hand.


Landstill
Despite 1st turn Forces both games, and Standstill both games, I’m able to overwhelm him and leave him with 3 lands at most.

Ichorid
1st game he did his thing on 3rd turn.
2nd game I did 1st turn Relic, and we did draw go for 3 more turns. Then he eot chain vapor my relic, tries to go off, but can’t. I blow both yards, and kill him in more 2 turns.
3rd game he drops mana, and passes. I drop mana (after mull to 5) and relic. He drops mana, LED, Breaktrough, and combos (wish I had tormod’s instead here)

So I finish 6th, because the guy in 1st (belcher) conceded to the guy with UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (who gets to top4 wit that), and I get only 30 reais (no top 8 matches due to time problems)

Things I realized:
-Vial rox.
-Frogtosser Banerret is awesome.
-Fanatics were only missed on the Ichorid matchup.
-Relic is often too slow to stop Ichorid. (but owns ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, It’s the fear and alike)
-Side needs 4 Chalice o the Void.
-Wort never saw play and was constantly boarded out.
-Need more Siege-Gang-Commander.
-Mad Auntie is awesome as 1 MD.
-Sharpshooter and Tinkerer didn’t saw play (haven’t played mirrors, affinity, things with mishra’s factory, SDT, vial, mox, or any artifact worth destroying).
-Nameless Inversion is decent in quite a few matchups. (will drop it to 1)
-6th Fetch is needed.
-21 lands (only 6 non R producing), with 4 warchief+3 Frogtosser never let me down.

Well, that’s that. After all I lost to combo, and won pretty much everything else. That’s what Goblins do, right?

About the recent discussion, Warren Weirding was great all day long. Being able to tutor for a 1 mana edict is way better than terminate could ever be.

Any suggestions on the list are welcome.

Mantis
11-24-2008, 06:43 AM
Nice finish, you didn't make T8 right?
Seems like you totally outplayed your Threshold opponent so that has nothing to do with luck, I mean seriously an active Exalted Angel and still lose? Thats pretty bad.

I really don't know about 21 lands, I play 24 and I've been loving it. Isn't Frogtosser very bad when you are behind? I can see that it's amazing when you are already ahead and got Ringleaders and Matrons flying all over the place. Goblins does have a large hole in the curve on CC=2 so it might fill up that spot nicely.

Anyway, I would add 2 more Ports, 2 more Siege-Gang and the fourth Ringleader and cut Wort, Tinkerer, Mad Auntie and 2 Nameless Inversion (though if you were expecting many Goblins it might be good).

I personally disagree with cutting Fanatic, it's amazing against Confidant decks, Survival, Ichorid and randomness like Elves. And against other decks it's still a decent beater and awesome with Sharpshooter.

Oh and about Warren Weirding; I always wanted to keep at least one in for sure. But you guys have convinced me pretty much, I will run the Weirdings.

Justin
11-24-2008, 08:24 AM
Nice finish, you didn't make T8 right?

He said he finished 6th, but the top eight did not play off due to time constraints.

Nameless inversion is an interesting idea that I had not thought about. I actually have three pyrokinesis in my sb to exchange for the weirdings in the mirror match (and against other weenie decks). Nameless might be better as it is fetchable with matron and ringleader. Of course, pyrokinesis will often take out two creatures and is "free," so I'm not so sure.

Illissius
11-24-2008, 08:55 AM
There's also Crib Swap, which -- although shit and a spectacular nombo with Weirding -- does kill anything Swords to Plowshares can while being Matronable.

kicks_422
11-24-2008, 09:31 AM
And it's tough to catch with Counterbalance too.

ScatmanX
11-24-2008, 11:45 AM
Thanks to everyone who read the report.
I finished 6th, yes.

About the the deck, Mad Auntie ain't going anywhere. she rocked so much.
Frogtosser were squeezed in to able me to make more 2cc drops. But during test, I liked them so much, I just can't cut them right now.

I'm thinking of dooing something like this:
-1 Wort
-1 Tinkerer
-1 Sharpshooter
-1 Nameless Inversion
+ 4 Mogg Fanatic

I think the goblin toolbox didn't played how I thought it would.
Maybe I'll leave the Sharpshooter and cut a Gempalm, making it a 2 of.

The SB, I'm thinking of this:
4 - Chalice of the Void
4 - Thoughtseize
3 - Relic of Progenitous
1 - Goblin Pyromancer
3 - Pithing Needle

It would certanly increase my chances agains't combo and control, but I would have to leave Sharpshooter MD. But no harm done, since he is great with Fanatics.

For the record, there were (from what i've seen) 4 other Goblin decks in there: 2 Rb (one with Biding), 1 Rg and 1 Rw. None of them did top 8.

About Nameless x Pyroknesis, there's no comparisson. Though I had 2 MD Nameless, I also had 2 SB Pyroknesis. Just think that Nameless is better MD, since you don't have to ditch a spell, and is tutarable.

Mantis
11-24-2008, 01:12 PM
I think I will try 1 Incinerator, 2 Warren Weirding and 1 Crib Swap as my disruption suite with a single Plateau in my deck. Crib Swap looks exactly like what I was looking for. That also opens up for some Seal of Cleansings postboard. Thanks Illissius.

Nameless Inversion is not maindeck material, it's dead in so many matchups. Against Threshold it does nothing, it can't even kill a Goyf and it does nothing against Landstill.

A toolbox sucks, I totally agree with you on that one. It really is the danger of cool things, I mean there is just no scenario I would rather do quite tricks with Wort than just smash face with Ringleader or Siege-Gang. And the same goes for Tinkerer and Mad Auntie, there is always something better to get. Sharpshooter may be the exception, but it could very well be that he shouldn't be in the maindeck as well. You want a stable deck that allows for the same gameplan every time. I play 4 Siege-Gangs for a reason; it gives me free wins. I have yet to lose when I went first turn Lackey second turn Siege Gang, a Mad Auntie perhaps makes me lose in that situation. Mad Auntie just seems very win more, it requires you to already have a huge army on board and if you play the right Goblins you should be winning anyway.

Anyway, I will give the Bannerets a try, those might be promising.

Media314r8
11-24-2008, 02:15 PM
I've always loved frogtosser ever since first I tested him, immediately after LOR was released. The deck lacks really good T2 drops, (driver is also a terrible topdeck, unless you're already winning) and in a deck with 8 raw CA spells and 2-4 SGCs, frogtosser makes your turn threes much more explosive than warchief: turn two frogtosser into turn three matron for weirding is teh sex, and I do still enjoy me some EOT chief into hast nonsense, but I think banneret deserves a place in Rb builds. I run 3 bannerets, 2 chiefs, and 22 lands instead of the classic 23. I also favor 3x earwigs main over piledrivers 2-4, as he's often as big, and can neuter ANT and the like if they have a slow hand, (many lists don't play burning wish anymore, and only run 1-2 tendrils, so if you snatch the two tendrils and the single ETW, if they happen to run it, its scoopsville) or if you go T1 lackey-> T2 cheif/banneret via lackey, prowl squad for 1B. My list for reference:

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [PT] Swamp (3)
6 [TSP] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
3 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
3 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
3 [MOR] Earwig Squad
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 1 [10E] Goblin King
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

Also, Wort has won me so many games as a fetchable 1 of I think she's worth including, at least gets the nod over sharpshooter, who is really only useful in the mirror, against EtW tokens, (less and less played) and against awkward rogue decks that you should beat anyway. Wort is the best topdeck after turn 3, and the best card to have mid-late game after a deed, WoG, or ground stall. I've recurred matrons, ringleaders, incinerators, and edicts to win against aggro-control decks in the current meta-goyf, and recurred SGCs to win against a moat packing control deck. Fanatics are arguably the deck's weakest card, but so often you find yourself starring down some annoying-ass 1 toughness creature/ichorid deck, and wishing that 1/2or 3/2 driver was a game-deciding fanatic.

ScatmanX
11-24-2008, 03:41 PM
only 2 Warchiefs?!
only 3 Fanatics despite that last comment of yours?!
2 swamps and 0 ports?

I don´t know, maybe it´s just in my head, since I never tested a list like that, but I don´t think those are the best choices one can make...

(but only 2 of the guy that makes all your goblins hasty monsters?? it´s kind of weird)

Media314r8
11-24-2008, 05:42 PM
only 2 Warchiefs?!
only 3 Fanatics despite that last comment of yours?!
2 swamps and 0 ports?

I don´t know, maybe it´s just in my head, since I never tested a list like that, but I don´t think those are the best choices one can make...

(but only 2 of the guy that makes all your goblins hasty monsters?? it´s kind of weird)

I play 2 chiefs and 3 bannerets. I like the speed boost of the banneret, but still understand the POWER of haste, and cannot cut chief, as while his haste ability is often irrelevant the turn he comes down, he often makes winning a turn faster, but the deck does run 4 fact or fictions and 4 demonic tutors. Same explination for fanatics: cards that are 4 of you want to see every game, often twice, cards you run as a 3 of you want to see once a game, 2- if you want to see one in long games, or via tutors/top. I want to see as many ringleaders and matrons as possible, so they are auto four-ofs, while lackeys and vials must be in your opener to be of any use, thus their 4-of status. Fanatic usually only has to do his thing once before things like incinerator, weirding, or matron-> what you need takes over the role he plays. The chief/banneret split is honestly me trying to 'fix' the curve with the removal of drivers in favor of squads, and prowl a squad/matron->removal turn three. The addition of another 'discount' effect also can be factored in, as well as that he can come in through vial turn three as opposed to chief on turn four.

Curve breakdown:
1 drops: 11 (lackey, vial, fanatic)
2 drops: 9 (banneret, wierding, tinkerer, driver, incinerator, (only kills mother, bob, ect turn two)
3 drops: 8/11 (chief, matron, auntie, *squad*)
4 drops: 5 (wort, ringleader)
5 drops: 6/3 (SGC, *squad*)

would look awkward as (notional w/o banneret, with squads and auntie, +1 SGC)
1 drops: 11
2 drops: 6
3 drops: 11/8
4 drops: 5
5 drops: 7/4

Traditional goblins lists:

4 lackey
4 fanatic
4 vial
3 wierding
4 driver
1 tin street/tinkerer
1 incinerator
4 warchief
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 siege gang

23 lands

curve:
1: 12
2: 9
3: 8
4: 4
5: 4
(notice how this is similar to my curve with bannerett, as opposed to my curve if I played 4 chiefs and no bannerets.)

ScatmanX
11-25-2008, 11:20 AM
I can't even remember the number of games where 2 or 3 Warchiefs got killed, and more than 1 Piledriver was also killed. The deal is that they are not cards that I just want to see, but that I want to see alot! T3 Warchief is a solid play, becaus it enables many T4 shanenigans. (note that i still defend Frogtosser also)

The problem of running only 2 Warchiefs and 1 Piledriver is, if they die, and you can't get Wort to reccur them, you'll be in a terible place.




@ everyone:
what cards do you guy consider to play on your Sideboards?
I've posted mine last changes 6 posts ago, but I'm not really happy with it. I really wish i could have something better than Thoughtseize and Needle.
I've played a lot with Thorn of Amethist (4 maindeck) but they were almost everytime to slow to even stall combo. So, please give me some other ideas here. =]

Mantis
11-25-2008, 12:09 PM
Mandatory are 4 Relic of Progenitus and 4 Chalice of the Void. I bring in Relic against Ichorid, Loam, Team America, Eva Green, Dreadstill and Threshold. Relic allows you to kill Goyf with Fanatic, Sharpshooter and Siege Gang, keeps Mongeese small and delays Tombstalker. So 4 are just mandatory they are awesome. Chalice is obvious as it's the only the thing that gives us a shot vs. Burn and Combo decks.

I run 2 or 3 copies of Goblin Tinkerer in my sideboard mostly to be able to nuke Chalice and Diamond from Aggro Loam, they are great against Dreadstill, stopping not only Dreadnought but you can also activate them to nuke a Top in response to a fetchland and it kills Factory. Against MUC and Stax they also come in.

That's 11 slots, for the rest I usually run 1 Earwig Squad in my SB if I don't already run it in the mainboard and possibly more if there's a lot of combo or decks playing Intuition. The 3 remaining slots are my meta slots and can be filled up by Mad Aunties (against Engineered Plague), Sharpshooter (if I don't run it main) and Tormod's Crypt is Ichorid and Aggro Loam are all over the place. If there's a lot of Goblins I will run some Incinerators in the board.

Also, Thorn of Amethyst is awful in Legacy. Combo is too fast and all the other decks run creatures. Even Threshold doesn't really care, as they can now trade a land with your resources instead.

Justin
11-25-2008, 11:16 PM
I agree that Thorn is pretty bad. I tested it myself and it doesn't do enough to slow down other decks. I agree that Chalice is a must. My goblin build splashes green, so I include Krosan Grip in the side. It's better than Mad Auntie, against Plague and they also kill troublesome enchantments such as Humility. I know I'm in the minority, but I include Choke in my sb because it is a devastating card against Threshold, Landstill, and other blue-based decks. I play Leyline of the Void over Relic because it continuously removes cards from hitting the graveyard and cannot be needled. It doesn't seem worth it boarding in graveyard hate against many decks other than Ichorid and Loam.

Media314r8
11-26-2008, 01:33 AM
I can't even remember the number of games where 2 or 3 Warchiefs got killed, and more than 1 Piledriver was also killed. The deal is that they are not cards that I just want to see, but that I want to see alot! T3 Warchief is a solid play, becaus it enables many T4 shanenigans. (note that i still defend Frogtosser also)

The problem of running only 2 Warchiefs and 1 Piledriver is, if they die, and you can't get Wort to reccur them, you'll be in a terible place.

I hear 5/3s that aren't dependent on the number of attacking creatures and SGCs have been known to win games as well. Also early drivers are often not even big enough to trade with goyf, so I've changed to consistently bigger guys that are relevant in more MUs, at the cost of being more expensive (and thus my inclusion of 5 'chief' effects.

Chalice is to slow combo, thorn a better SB slot to help you get there against combo after your chalice, as it is also relevant against stacks, loam, control, ect, whereas SB cards like pillar, while arguably a better augment to chalice, are too narrow to bring in against other decks. Also, goblins ~ glass cannon vs combo anyhow, IMO the 3 MB squads or them fizzling is the ONLY way you will win G1, and I'm not willing to invest 8-11 slots of my SB just to hope I can come to a positive win % after I've ALLREADY lost G1, because even IF you can move the odds to 60/40, chances are you're still going to lose that G3 if you don't lose G2. If you play in a meta that's JUST combo and thresh decks, I wouldn't even bother boarding vs thresh, you should beat them anyhow, and devote 11 slots to combo and 4 to grave hate/ichorid.

tl;dr: thorns could also be magus of the moon, but I've found him lackluster in tournaments when I didn't already has a positive MU with the deck I boarded him in against. I used to run between 1 and 2 goblin settlers back when tabernacle was played as a land, but he could also possibly be relevant in the current land-skimping meta to compliment wasteland, but again, it seems like a 'sharpshoter' slot, where I would want it MD in a certain meta, and not at all even in the SB in any other situation. I used to run the last fanatic, tinkerer number two and a sledder to aid against decks packing jitte or ichorid . Any suggestions other than 'thorn is lackluster'?

Mantis
11-26-2008, 05:37 AM
@Justin: Could you please elaborate on why Relic of Progenitus isn't worth it against Threshold? I read an old SCG article by Bardo and Machinus on Threshold vs. Goblins and Machinus even SB-ed in Tormod's Crypt against them. It would seem Relic is awesome against Threshold, it stops their assault because you use the remove a card ability each turn and then it allows you to kill a Goyf or a Mongoose for free by activating it's second ability.

The article was written before Tarmogoyf was printed. - Bardo

GreenOne
11-26-2008, 10:55 AM
@Justin: Could you please elaborate on why Relic of Progenitus isn't worth it against Threshold? I read an old SCG article by Bardo and Machinus on Threshold vs. Goblins and Machinus even SB-ed in Tormod's Crypt against them. It would seem Relic is awesome against Threshold, it stops their assault because you use the remove a card ability each turn and then it allows you to kill a Goyf or a Mongoose for free by activating it's second ability.

The resons are basicly 2 imo:

1- Tormod kept their creatures small for a bit of time. It needed a couple turns at least to build a 7 card graveyard even with mental note. With Goyf in place of Werebear, the opponent can just keep any istant+ a fetch in play and make the Goyf a 2/3 instantly (which is bigger than any creature in the deck). Even istantly making a 1/2 goyf (with just a fetch in play OR instant in hand) can block every Lackey, Matron, Fanatic and even a Piledriver attacking alone.

2- Thresh-type decks adopted stifle as a staple MD card. So you can do savage tricks like attacking, letting him block with goyf, assign dmg, pop Relic and watch the goyf die as state based effect even if the opponent has a fetch and an istant in hand. But if the opponent plays a stifle he just 2 for 1ed you and you're probably screwed.

Zinch
11-26-2008, 11:17 AM
The resons are basicly 2 imo:

1- Tormod kept their creatures small for a bit of time. It needed a couple turns at least to build a 7 card graveyard even with mental note. With Goyf in place of Werebear, the opponent can just keep any istant+ a fetch in play and make the Goyf a 2/3 instantly (which is bigger than any creature in the deck). Even istantly making a 1/2 goyf (with just a fetch in play OR instant in hand) can block every Lackey, Matron, Fanatic and even a Piledriver attacking alone.

2- Thresh-type decks adopted stifle as a staple MD card. So you can do savage tricks like attacking, letting him block with goyf, assign dmg, pop Relic and watch the goyf die as state based effect even if the opponent has a fetch and an istant in hand. But if the opponent plays a stifle he just 2 for 1ed you and you're probably screwed.

1- If you know how to play relic, you will pop the fanatic, then in response play the first ability of the relic on your opponent and still in response the second one. Killing goyf unless he has a fetch (something you can see) and an instant (or 2 instants). If he is blocking with the goyf, then he will need 3 cards in the grave after the relic (something unusual) unless he is blocking a lackey and you don't have a fanatic.

2- Ok, stifle is a pain in the ... but if your opponent has a mana open, simply play the relic ability first, and then attack for the win. If he stifles it, at least you don't lose CA:

nitewolf9
11-26-2008, 11:37 AM
1- If you know how to play relic, you will pop the fanatic, then in response play the first ability of the relic on your opponent and still in response the second one. Killing goyf unless he has a fetch (something you can see) and an instant (or 2 instants). If he is blocking with the goyf, then he will need 3 cards in the grave after the relic (something unusual) unless he is blocking a lackey and you don't have a fanatic.


He would still only need either an instant or a fetch to stop fanatic from killing goyf. You would be stacking things like this:

:top:
relic "remove all graves" ability
relic tap ability
fanatic
:bottom:

All your opponent would need to do is let the first ability resolve, then the second, then with only the fanatic ability on the stack he fetches or plays an instant, making goyf 1/2.

If you want to do it with the results you want, you'd need to use the tap ability of the artifact, sac fanatic, then use the remove all graves ability. Like this:

:top:
relic "remove all graves" ability
fanatic
relic tap ability
:bottom:

Then if they respond to fanatic with a card going to the grave, the goyf will revert to 0/1 after the last ability resolves and will die.

loop
11-26-2008, 11:51 AM
That sounds awfully complex.
Why not just use the fanatic on goyf, let it resolve, then crack the relic?
If they respond by cracking a fetch or playing an instant, well, it'll still be removed by relic and Goyf dies when SBEs are checked.
Or am I missing something?

nitewolf9
11-26-2008, 12:02 PM
That sounds awfully complex.
Why not just use the fanatic on goyf, let it resolve, then crack the relic?
If they respond by cracking a fetch or playing an instant, well, it'll still be removed by relic and Goyf dies when SBEs are checked.
Or am I missing something?

No, you're not missing anything. That's what "most people" would probably do. I was just sort of operating within the context of that example for some reason to prove why it wouldn't work with that sequence.

Nihil Credo
11-26-2008, 01:03 PM
I was just sort of operating within the context of that example for some reason to prove why it wouldn't work with that sequence.
Ouch - my face! Hey Mr. Signorini, next time give a warning shout before back-pedalling that fast!

(I'm also challenging you on a "Most Useless DTBF Post" contest)

nitewolf9
11-26-2008, 01:37 PM
Ouch - my face! Hey Mr. Signorini, next time give a warning shout before back-pedalling that fast!

(I'm also challenging you on a "Most Useless DTBF Post" contest)

I have not yet begun to defile my reputation (graciously assuming I have one).

Media314r8
11-26-2008, 03:57 PM
The resons are basicly 2 imo:

1- Tormod kept their creatures small for a bit of time. It needed a couple turns at least to build a 7 card graveyard even with mental note. With Goyf in place of Werebear, the opponent can just keep any istant+ a fetch in play and make the Goyf a 2/3 instantly (which is bigger than any creature in the deck). Even istantly making a 1/2 goyf (with just a fetch in play OR instant in hand) can block every Lackey, Matron, Fanatic and even a Piledriver attacking alone.

2- Thresh-type decks adopted stifle as a staple MD card. So you can do savage tricks like attacking, letting him block with goyf, assign dmg, pop Relic and watch the goyf die as state based effect even if the opponent has a fetch and an istant in hand. But if the opponent plays a stifle he just 2 for 1ed you and you're probably screwed.

3. Relic is not a goblin, and you're likely bringing four out, thus making ringleader, arguably the MVP of this MU, less powerful.

Zinch
11-26-2008, 04:14 PM
That sounds awfully complex.
Why not just use the fanatic on goyf, let it resolve, then crack the relic?
If they respond by cracking a fetch or playing an instant, well, it'll still be removed by relic and Goyf dies when SBEs are checked.
Or am I missing something?

ok... that's what I wanted to say, but for an unknown reason I put a in response in a wrong place. My bad.

Justin
11-26-2008, 07:59 PM
@Justin: Could you please elaborate on why Relic of Progenitus isn't worth it against Threshold? I read an old SCG article by Bardo and Machinus on Threshold vs. Goblins and Machinus even SB-ed in Tormod's Crypt against them. It would seem Relic is awesome against Threshold, it stops their assault because you use the remove a card ability each turn and then it allows you to kill a Goyf or a Mongoose for free by activating it's second ability.

Green One answered this question exactly right. When I first starting playing goblins a couple years ago, I boarded in Tormod's Crypt against Threshold, but it wasn't very effective for the reasons that Green One mentioned. Anytime you board in a non-goblin card, you need to make sure that it will be highly effective. I have to admit, though, that I have not tested Relic against Thresh. So I could be wrong on my assessment.

Mantis, I realize that your build is Rb, while mine is Rbg. I like to board in Choke against Threshold to keep all their lands from untapping the rest of the game. Choke cannot be stifled or needled and it resolves a lot more than you would think. Threshold opponents usually spend their countermagic against my early threats (Vial, Lackey, etc.) and often don't have an answer left when I go for Choke.

Tacosnape
11-27-2008, 01:19 AM
Green One answered this question exactly right. When I first starting playing goblins a couple years ago, I boarded in Tormod's Crypt against Threshold, but it wasn't very effective for the reasons that Green One mentioned. Anytime you board in a non-goblin card, you need to make sure that it will be highly effective. I have to admit, though, that I have not tested Relic against Thresh. So I could be wrong on my assessment.

You are.

Relic is the bane of Tarmogoyf's existence. Not only can an early Relic just sit there and tap and munch singleton cards for a few turns, when you're ready to crack the bitch, it gets rid of YOUR graveyard too, making Tarmogoyf lose Creature, Land, and verry possibly either artifact (If they countered your Vials) or Tribal and Sorcery. Oh, and, know what else is neat? It cantrips. The entire reason you don't board in Crypt against Threshold, other than that Crypt is way worse against Goyf than it was against Werebear? Is that Crypt costs you a card for that little effect. Relic gives you a bigger effect and doesn't cost you the card.

Goblins has absolutely no use for a graveyard unless you're playing subpar goblins (Hint: They start with W and end with Ort, Boggart Auntie). So Relic sweeping your own yard in the process is very often a blessing in disguise.

Also, as for the "How to Mogg Fanatic a Tarmogoyf correctly when you have a Relic in play" discussion? The answer is probably that you don't. Because you should be boarding out at least three of your Mogg Fanatics against Threshold, as they completely suck ass outside of this one situation and are your weakest card in the matchup short of Tin-Street Hooligan. (EDIT: But if you are for some reason? Loop's way is probably the best idea, assuming you can dodge Stifle.)

Mantis
11-28-2008, 04:34 AM
Tacosnape is 100% right. Seriously, Threshold is the beatdown deck in this matchup slowing them down this much gives you the time to get Siege-Gang's into play and Ringleaders active. Also, it makes Threshold's creatures lose their surperior P/T stats and forces them to trade 1 for 1 with your creatures. As Goblins has like 3x as much creatures in their deck this situation obviously favors the Goblins player.

And it cantrips.

@Justin, I can see that you are not willing to take out 7 creatures for the Threshold match, that would dilute your deck and weaken your gameplan and I obviously understand that. I have never tried Choke in Goblins, so I can hardly say anything on this matter. Please consider my post aimed at everyone else then.

I would also like to respond on Stifle. That card screws you either way, if they don't use it on Relic they will use it on Siege Gang, Ringleader or Matron. And it can be played around.

Justin
11-28-2008, 03:15 PM
You guys make a good case that Relic is good against Thresh, but I have another problem with it. I currently have Leyline of the Void as my graveyard-hate sideboard card. Granted, it's not as useful against Thresh as Relic, but it seems alot better against Ichorid and Aggro Loam. Both of these decks are among the most popular in Legacy. I've been playing against a lot of Aggro Loam lately. Relic doesn't stop their Countryside Crushers from growing. I just feel more comfortable going with Leyline and mulling aggresively to find it in the needed matchups.

ScatmanX
11-28-2008, 03:54 PM
Leyline is better agains´t decks using Ill-Gotten-Gains also.
Maybe we should make a list, pointing out in wich scenarios one is better than the other. But I think it´s only a matter of taste (and meta).

Tacosnape
11-29-2008, 02:26 AM
I would also like to respond on Stifle. That card screws you either way, if they don't use it on Relic they will use it on Siege Gang, Ringleader or Matron. And it can be played around.

I pretty much agree with this.

The positive way of looking at this is that every Stifle they spend on a Relic they aren't spending on a Ringleader, SGC, or Matron. About twelve years ago my Magic mentor taught me that every deck I ran should either have several artifacts or none, to either flood more than they could hate on or make their hate dead in their hand. While rudimentary in philosophy and not always truly the right choice, the concept behind this is always worth considering. It was taught to teach me how not to lose to Disenchant. Here we similarly apply it to Stifle. They can't Stifle everything.

It's also worth considering that Stifle might see less play thanks to Ad Nauseam providing resilience against the card. Time will tell.

Shriekmaw
12-01-2008, 12:52 PM
Leyline is better agains´t decks using Ill-Gotten-Gains also.
Maybe we should make a list, pointing out in wich scenarios one is better than the other. But I think it´s only a matter of taste (and meta).


I can't see a good reason to run Leyline at all in Goblins. The only time I actually ran it in the board was when all the brokeness with Flash happened. Since that deck is gone, I can't justify running Leyline at all in the sideboard of goblins.

If you want graveyard hate then I suggest running relic in the board, its better than crypt most of the time and it cantrips which is always a plus.

I think the discussion should focus on cards in the main deck or which version of goblins is actually better. 2 color verus 3 color?

Tacosnape
12-01-2008, 02:56 PM
I think the discussion should focus on cards in the main deck or which version of goblins is actually better. 2 color verus 3 color?

Summarized neatly, here's why you splash, in order of power:

1. Warren Weirding (Black)
2. Tin-Street Hooligan (Green)
3. Enchantment Removal (Green)

Everything else is overrated, including Wort, Squad, Discard, and whatever else you want to pull in from Green.

Warren Weirding and Tin-Street Hooligan are the two best cards they've printed for Vial Goblins since Legacy started. Both are incredible powerhouses that cover a weakness of the deck, and do so at the deck's absolute weakest point in the mana curve - the 2CC slot. One requires Black. One requires Green. If you want to be able to get both, you have to run three colors.

I will say that if you aren't going to play at least 2-3 Tin-Street Hooligans in your 75, you probably shouldn't bother splashing Green and should just get a Tinkerer or not worry about artifacts.

kabal
12-01-2008, 03:02 PM
Summarized neatly, here's why you splash, in order of power:

1. Warren Weirding (Black)
2. Tin-Street Hooligan (Green)
3. Enchantment Removal (Green)


You are saying white isn't worth splashing for StP?

Eldariel
12-01-2008, 03:12 PM
White is an interesting case because while it doesn't grant you a single new Goblin you'd want to play, it gives you pretty much the best non-Goblin answers to all your problems. Green and black both offer great Goblins you'd want to use, but neither handles all, creatures, artifacts and enchantments. White handles all those, but doesn't do so in a manner Goblins can truly appreciate. That said, Rw mana is much less suspectible to hate than Rgb mana, so there's something to consider in there. And of course, none of the colours solves combo in a satisfactory manner, which is a pity really - having a 40/60 match would be far better than the 20/80 we're looking at right now, and would mean you could afford one-two combo pairings over the tournament without losing your chance to win.

Tacosnape
12-01-2008, 04:43 PM
You are saying white isn't worth splashing for StP?

I think Eldariel's sort of right on here. White offers fantastic answers to problems in ways goblins can't capitalize on. White just flat out doesn't offer you any good Goblins (And while I'm aware Crib Swap exists, it's just awful.) Black and Green both offer you a Goblin card each, both a fantastic one. Warren Weirding isn't as good as Swords to Plowshares in a vacuum, but in Goblins it shines, as it gets picked up by Matron/Ringleader. Tin-Street not only nets you a permanent while often picking off a troubling Chalice/Needle/Painter/Equipment/Mox/Whatever, it gets picked up by Matron/Ringleader. These are two fantastic cards that synergize with the deck and blow away every other splash card in comparison.

As such, White doesn't offer you anything that another color can't in some way. Removal can be handled by Black or just straight Red (The Goblins work a lot better when Relic of Progenitus is backing them up). Artifact/Enchantment removal can be handled by Green or even Black if you rely on Discard/Needle. Combo hate can be handled by artifacts or Black. White might be able to do all of these in one splash, but it isn't doing any of them amazingly well.

Mantis
12-02-2008, 11:49 AM
What do you bring in Needle for? I have never run it and never found the need to sideboard it in actually.

Tacosnape
12-02-2008, 12:42 PM
What do you bring in Needle for? I have never run it and never found the need to sideboard it in actually.

That's because you don't run it. Therefore you aren't looking for the uses. Pithing Needle's also a very high skill level card to be able to predict its uses and when to board it in.

1. Needle stopsSword of Fire and Ice (And less important, Light and Shadow), which will help some against Faerie Stompy, though far less than Tin-Street Hooligan would. It will replace Mogg Fanatic, who does little in this match.

2. Needle stops Pernicious Deed or Factory or Monestary or a cycling Decree of Justice against Landstill. It will replace some of your Weirdings/Gempalms. Oh, and, if your entire life goal is to keep your opponent off Humility, Needle also hits fetchlands pre-emptively.

3. Needle stops Arc-Slogger and Umezawa's Jitte against Dragon Stompy. It also stops Jitte in any other deck that runs it.

4. Needle stops Survival of the Fittest. Like, seriously? No other card does this better. Survival's most common method of removing Needles cost 5 (Wickerbough/Activate) or 4 (Burning Wish/Gleeful Sabotage), and that's tempo they're not going to have against you very often.

5. Pithing Needle stops random combo pieces, like Goblin Charbelcher or Grindstone (Yes, okay, some of them will annoyingly drop a Painter and Pyroblast your Needle, but it's still something.)

6. It stops Vedalken Shackles against MUC, meaning they can't get the absurdly annoying Shackles/Propaganda combo going against you as easily.

7. It stops either Seismic Assault or the cycling lands against Aggro Loam.

8. It's decent against Affinity, too.

All this said, I don't run Needle if I splash Green unless I'm operating under the "Abandon my storm combo matchup entirely" theory (Which I still think is Goblins' best plan), and for some reason I want Grip, Needle, and Tin-Street all at my disposal. RB Goblins, however, can definitely exploit Needle.

In short, Needle is fantastic against Landstill and Survival, will give you fighting chances against Stompy decks packing equipment if you have a way to deal with Chalice for 1, and often shines in unexpected matchups or against random combo matchups.

BKclassic
12-02-2008, 01:18 PM
Sensei's Divining Top seems like a good Needle target, too.

Shriekmaw
12-02-2008, 01:57 PM
Sensei's Divining Top seems like a good Needle target, too.


Pithing needle shouldn't be included in a goblins sideboard because there are just better options for the kind of decks you want to fight.

If you are bringing in pithing needle against decks with sensei's divining top, then you probably want to rethink your sideboard strategy.

Honestly, I could care less about SDT when I'm playing goblins, same goes with counterbalance.

Ectoplasm
12-02-2008, 05:16 PM
Peedle is a great way to stop powder kegs from raping your 1-drops though. MUC is starting to become pretty prevalent around here so I'm seriously considering putting a couple in my board.

Media314r8
12-02-2008, 05:42 PM
Pithing needle shouldn't be included in a goblins sideboard because there are just better options for the kind of decks you want to fight.

If you are bringing in pithing needle against decks with sensei's divining top, then you probably want to rethink your sideboard strategy.

Honestly, I could care less about SDT when I'm playing goblins, same goes with counterbalance.

I think this was more intended to be an omission from the earlier list, in that some landstill variants, other deck with needle-able targets, also run fetches and top, and just shows that needle can rape these decks hard, even in multiples. I do not think he was advocating bringing in needles against decks such as UGb thresh JUST to hit top.

Shriekmaw
12-08-2008, 04:27 PM
Peedle is a great way to stop powder kegs from raping your 1-drops though. MUC is starting to become pretty prevalent around here so I'm seriously considering putting a couple in my board.


In regards to Mono-Blue Control, this is such an easy matchup for goblins I wouldn't worry about boarding in pithing needle. Going with my build, I would just board in krosan grips and cabal threapies to take care of any annoying artifacts/enchantments. Off the top of my head, I don't really like to see Shackles or Propaganda which has seen play.

You just overwhelm them with creatures and it shouldn't be much of a problem to win. It's nice that they don't have any board sweepers which is another thing you don't have to worry about. Powder Keg doesn't count as a board sweeper.

GoldenCid
12-09-2008, 07:58 PM
So....i don't have clear which colours combination is the most acceptable for this deck:

mono red
RG
BR???

Shriekmaw
12-09-2008, 08:06 PM
So....i don't have clear which colours combination is the most acceptable for this deck:

mono red
RG
BR???


It's clearly RBG, but thats my opinion on the best build. I think the 3 color build will be the best for the GP since you will have to deal with a lot of hate and mirror matches.

GoldenCid
12-09-2008, 08:11 PM
It's clearly RBG, but thats my opinion on the best build. I think the 3 color build will be the best for the GP since you will have to deal with a lot of hate and mirror matches.


Have you any decklist RBG??

Lejay
12-10-2008, 09:01 AM
It's clearly RBG, but thats my opinion on the best build. I think the 3 color build will be the best for the GP since you will have to deal with a lot of hate and mirror matches.

How are Taïgas + badlands and warren weirdings good tech for the mirror match ?

Shriekmaw
12-10-2008, 09:16 AM
How are Taïgas + badlands and warren weirdings good tech for the mirror match ?


I have seen some builds, mostly the 2 color version of B/R have cut mogg fanatics and gempalm incinerators in favor of more seige-gang commanders and thoughtseize maindeck.

I run a lot of cards that are good in the mirror. 4 mogg fanatics, 2 gempalmn incinerators, 1 tin street hooligan, 1 goblin sharpshooter.

After game 1 the weirdings in the main deck become cabal therapies.

You should examine the entire build before making comments. Especially from someone that knows how to build and play goblins.

ScatmanX
12-10-2008, 09:36 AM
I think that he mean't that having Badlands + Taigas make the deck have a less stable manabase, wich is bad agains't the mirror. Also, Warren's Weirdings kind of sucks in the mirror. He wasn't commenting on Fanatics, Siege-Gangs or Sharpshooters. I Kind of agree with Lejay, couse the G splash only brings TSH to the mirror, wich can be easily replaced by Goblin Tinkerer.

And what is the Hate that you say? Only one I can think off is Plague and Deed, both ones we can live trough (though Moat and Humility kind of kick our asses). Things like Propaganda are used only in decks that are already good MU, like MUC. Other stuff can be handled with Tinkerer or, if you run discard, that too.:wink:

Also, GoldenCid asked for your list and you didn't post it (maybe you have pm'd him) so is kind of hard for us to "examine the entire build before making comments". We work with what we've got.

Lastly, I don't think that Copola's Templar Goblins (thoughtseize MD) will be seeing that much play. It is far from being and ideal list...

Shriekmaw
12-10-2008, 09:50 AM
I've posted my list several times in this thread. I didn't feel like taking up space with the reposting of my list all the time. You can simply look for it and if you really wanted it then you can pm me.


If you a really concerned about the mirror match then you simply play mono-red, but the goal is to improve your other matchups where I feel the 3 color version is the best with still a solid game against the mirror.

ScatmanX
12-10-2008, 10:06 AM
"I don't care if you guys disagree with the list because I know what works and what doesn't when it comes to goblins. I've played against every deck possible through playtesting and tournament play."
Then why even botter posting it?
Your list (4 pages ago) is very nice actually. I would only try -1 Wort, but you don't care about that.

Can I ask you how's EE have beeing playing for you? It seems to awnser a lot of problems the deck may have, and I even defended it for a while, but I eventually become to think it was not as useful/fast as I wanted.

Koala
12-10-2008, 10:56 AM
I don't care if you guys disagree with the list because I know what works and what doesn't when it comes to goblins. I've played against every deck possible through playtesting and tournament play.


so, if you "know what works" and "don't care" for coments, why are you posting here???

GoldenCid
12-10-2008, 11:04 AM
so, if you "know what works" and "don't care" for coments, why are you posting here???

That's right!!
Going back to the list i asked for it because after the decklist post there are comments like -1 of this +1 of that and i got confused...

Shriekmaw
12-10-2008, 11:25 AM
Can I ask you how's EE have beeing playing for you? It seems to awnser a lot of problems the deck may have, and I even defended it for a while, but I eventually become to think it was not as useful/fast as I wanted.


The engineeered explosvies mainly come in against decks that have plague in the board. Its very important to kill multiple plagues because I usually see more than 1 in play. The other matchup were I board these in against is threshold, because they kill multiples 'goyfs and 'geese which are a problem.

The crypts are relics now in the board, but the rest remains unchanged. I think the sideboard is very well put together for the current legacy metagame.

I'm very happy with the main deck and do like the 1 ofs in wort, sharpshooter, and hooligan. These cards have won me many games where I wouldn't of won if they were something else.

Justin
12-10-2008, 08:26 PM
Someone was asking about Rbg lists earlier, so I thought I would post mine. My list probably isn't too different from what a lot of others are doing. After dismissing Earwigs for a long time, I finally tried them and found them strong enough to run. I like the green splash for the single Tin Street and sideboard cards. I cut a piledriver and only run two Siege-Gangs (athough I usually go back between 2 and 3) in order to fir in Wort and a Sharpshooter.

As for the side, Grip, Leyline, and Chalice are pretty standard for Rbg. I make a couple unorthodox choice is taking Pyrokinesis for the mirror match (and weenies) and Choke, which stops the top two decks in the format (Threshold and Landstill).

2 Earwig Squad
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

Spells
3 Warren Weirding

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Lands
4 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15 cards)
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Choke
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void

Koala
12-11-2008, 06:21 AM
... I cut a piledriver ....
2 Earwig Squad
...
3 Goblin Piledriver
...
4 Mogg Fanatic
...

Lands (22)
4 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills




Justin, why are you running 3 piledriver while 4 fanatic? Is 4º fanatic more important than 4º piledriver? And 22 lands seems a lot for me.

Justin
12-11-2008, 09:17 AM
22 lands seems to be the right number for goblins. In fact, I'd say that 23 would be better than 21. The reason for running 22 is that cards that destroy your lands see a lot of play in Legacy (Wasteland and others). Against decks that can recur Wastelands, such as Aggro Loam, you really don't want to be short on lands.

If you read some of the earlier conversations on this thread, you will find that a lot has been said about Piledriver and Fanatic. Piledriver has fallen out of favour somewhat with some goblins players. Until Lorwyn came about, it was a must-four-of. Now with more people playing Wort, Earwigs, and other new cards, goblin players have to find places to make cuts. While Piledrivers are needed to put extra pressure on the opponent, they are not always a useful draw. I've been fine with running three.

There seems to be a pretty strong consensus that running four fanatics is the way to go. True, you will side them out against some matchups (Thresh, Painter), but they are great against most decks. They are fantastic in the mirror match, negating your opponent's Lackey threat. They break Bridge against Ichorid. They also take out a multitude of other x/1 creatures such as Dark Confidant.

Mantis
12-11-2008, 10:38 AM
I actually run 24 lands in Goblins and either that or 23 lands is the right number for Goblins. But I'm 24 lands was the best in my testing. That way you can support 4 Siege-Gang Commanders which gives you the most awesome late game ever. 4 Rishadan Port and 4 Wasteland is obviously amazing too.

But I prefer a lot of land, because I believe I can outplay most of my opponents and make up for the possible manaflood that way anyway. I hate to be mana screwed and lose a match that way.

GoldenCid
12-11-2008, 11:40 AM
But I prefer a lot of land, because I believe I can outplay most of my opponents and make up for the possible manaflood that way anyway. I hate to be mana screwed and lose a match that way.

Flood and screw are equaly awful. I think that 24 land are too much concerning that we run lackey and vial with are great cards for put cards in play with poor mana, not to mention that warchief helps us too. I think that 22-23 land are good.

Shriekmaw
12-11-2008, 12:14 PM
I actually run 24 lands in Goblins and either that or 23 lands is the right number for Goblins. But I'm 24 lands was the best in my testing. That way you can support 4 Siege-Gang Commanders which gives you the most awesome late game ever. 4 Rishadan Port and 4 Wasteland is obviously amazing too.

But I prefer a lot of land, because I believe I can outplay most of my opponents and make up for the possible manaflood that way anyway. I hate to be mana screwed and lose a match that way.


You can also lose the game by getting mana flooded which is something to keep in mind. You may be able to outplay your opponents in your local metagame, but in the GP I would beg to differ.

I may be an expert in the Legacy format, but pros are still pros and they are pretty damn good.

I believe you play the best magic you can and what happens, happens. Going with the mind set of thinking you can just outplay everyone leads to problems, because it makes you keep less than stellar hands on the assumption that you can just outplay everyone.

Justin
12-11-2008, 01:54 PM
Flood and screw are equaly awful. I think that 24 land are too much concerning that we run lackey and vial with are great cards for put cards in play with poor mana, not to mention that warchief helps us too. I think that 22-23 land are good.

I agree with this. Getting flooded really stinks and too many lands also weakens your Ringleaders somewhat. I would not play 24 lands in Goblins unless I was expecting a lot of decks with recurring LD (Wasteland via Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds) such as Aggro Loam, 42 land, and some Landstill builds. 22-23 lands sounds right, and I've been pretty good with running just 22.

Ectoplasm
12-11-2008, 03:54 PM
On the subject of posting RGB decklists, here's mine:

4x Lackey
4x Warchief
4x Fanatic
4x Piledriver
4x Matron
4x Ringleader
4x Vial
2x SGC
2x Weirding
2x Incinerator
1x Hooligan
1x Wort
1x Sharpshooter
1x Mad Auntie

22 lands: 3-3 taiga/badlands, 7 fetch, 4 waste, 5 mountains and considering cutting one for a swamp.

SB:
4x Relic
3x Grip
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Earwig Squad
1x Gaea's Blessing
2x Choke
1x Vexing Shusher

Mad Auntie is just the 'random tech' slot that gets bounced around often, might just cut it entirely and play a 3rd weirding. I used to play 3-1 weirding/incinerator but I found out I really like the incinerators so I decided to play more.

I don't know, this list just seems solid, although a bit conservative maybe? It's been serving me well for a while now.

Shriekmaw
12-12-2008, 09:32 AM
Since a lot of people don't like to look back and find my list here it is again. If you simply want it, please just pm me and I'll give it to you. I try to do my best to help the Legacy community any way possible.

RBG Goblins:

4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Wierding
2 Gempalmn Incinerator
2 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort

SB

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic
4 Chalice of the Void

Mantis
12-14-2008, 07:20 AM
You can also lose the game by getting mana flooded which is something to keep in mind. You may be able to outplay your opponents in your local metagame, but in the GP I would beg to differ.

I may be an expert in the Legacy format, but pros are still pros and they are pretty damn good.

I believe you play the best magic you can and what happens, happens. Going with the mind set of thinking you can just outplay everyone leads to problems, because it makes you keep less than stellar hands on the assumption that you can just outplay everyone.
Right, no Legacy GP here anytime soon (I live in Holland), all we get is Limited GP's...

I rarely lose games because of getting mana flood because I play 4 SCG, 4 Matron and 4 Ringleader thus maximizing on awesome topdecks in the lategame if I am just sitting there with a ton of land on board. I found that 24 lands was perfect as it allows me to actively use Wasteland and Port and not worry about manascrew. Also, Team America is becoming more prevalent and Loam is pretty big here and I think it's a good thing to have lots of lands against those decks.

With 4 Siege Gang in the deck this allows for the maximum of busted Lackey --> Siege Gang opening hands. I found that I could only justify running 4 Siege Gang with 24 land otherwise they would just sit in my hand too often.

So actually my land theory is a double edged sword, preventing you from manascrew and opening up to SCG which in turn allows for more busted opening hands. But perhaps it's a personal preference and while I do think 22 lands is too few, 23 lands is defendable choice as well.

EDIT: I just read and remembered about the Ringleader argument and while that must certainly not be ignored I still get 2+ Goblins off a Ringleader stastically speaking, that should usually be enough in a war of attrition.

ScatmanX
12-17-2008, 08:50 AM
About the lands, I'm currently running 21. It's a really bold choice, and I'm considering going 22. I can justify running 3 Siege-Gangs with 22 lands, because of 4 Warchiefs, 3 Frogtossers and 4 Vials. It's been working quite nice.

A little off but:
Have you guys noticed that we've gone from DTB to DTW this month? What happened? or is this usual and I haven't realized earlier? The only 2 DTB are ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and Landstill, with all their variants. Are they getting better at kick our asses, or fewer people are playing goblins today?

Koala
12-17-2008, 08:56 AM
About the lands, I'm currently running 21. It's a really bold choice, and I'm considering going 22. I can justify running 3 Siege-Gangs with 22 lands, because of 4 Warchiefs, 3 Frogtossers and 4 Vials. It's been working quite nice.


I think 21 enough, you run 4 Warchiefs, 3 Frogtossers and 4 Vials, besides LACKEY. We don't wanna reveal lands in ringleader FoF.

Shriekmaw
12-17-2008, 10:39 AM
I think 21 enough, you run 4 Warchiefs, 3 Frogtossers and 4 Vials, besides LACKEY. We don't wanna reveal lands in ringleader FoF.


The more you play the deck, the more you will realize that 21 is not enough land for goblins to be running. I did run 22 lands for a long time, but when I finally added the extra land to 23, I found the deck to be much more consistent.

You play aether vial, goblin lackey, and warchief, but can't consistenly rely on them to help your mana curve. Since you play a lot of mana intensive spells, the land count is very important.

Ectoplasm
12-20-2008, 07:12 AM
Down to a DTW :( This is an atrocity!

kicks_422
12-20-2008, 07:25 AM
Well, you have to admit that the deck has fallen to the wayside now, especially with the continuous rise of Storm combo. Relic might solve the Goyf problem a bit, and the deck is still fundamentally sound, but Goblins just isn't what it used to be.

Mantis
12-20-2008, 08:02 AM
I'm glad, now perhaps less people will come prepared for Goblins which improves our EV against the field. Personally I do not necessarily agree with the DTB/DTW at the moment at all, but that's a different discussion.

Ectoplasm
12-20-2008, 12:57 PM
Goblins has been doing just fine in Belgium/Netherlands, recently getting 1 and 2 in a pretty big Belgian tournament!

Brizentine Empire
12-21-2008, 05:49 PM
I agree that Goblins just isn't what they used to be. The rest of the decks in legacy have just caught up, and Golbins just don't have the answers for the threats that your opponents pose with aggroloam, threshold, etc. I just tore apart my Gobbos in favor of Swan Thresh, which I believe is going to do much better in Chicago.

Shriekmaw
12-21-2008, 11:39 PM
I'm glad, now perhaps less people will come prepared for Goblins which improves our EV against the field. Personally I do not necessarily agree with the DTB/DTW at the moment at all, but that's a different discussion.


This will not effect how people shape there sideboards for larger events, more specifically the GP. The top 2 decks that will be played in Chicago will be Threshold and Goblins like its been in the past with the exception of GP Flash.

This is my personal view, but believe threshold would be a great choice in Chicago if you had 2 to 3 byes going in. My reasoning behind this is that threshold does not preform well against random decks, its very good against the tier 1 decks. This is not to say that someone piloting threshold with zero byes cannot to well, its just harder.

I will be play testing a lot of different decks in the tournaments to come and make a deck selection when the GP becomes a lot closer.

In a unknown field with no byes to work with I believe that Goblins and TES are the best call. Let me know what some others think. This will be my third Legacy GP and hopefully the best one I've attended.

Mantis
12-22-2008, 08:55 AM
Just pick up what you are familiar with and the deck which you play best. Also, pick up a build that you tweaked yourself as you will tweak your deck according to the way you play and mulligan your hands.

I find it hard to predict as what will see play in the GP. The determinants for this will probably be what people read about here on The Source and whatever articles may be popping up on SCG.com. For example I think Dreadstill will see much play as Cheon has picked it up. So just keep a close eye on that, but you probably already do.
Also, what people are able to build with their cards and afford is a pretty big determinant.

In any case, I wish you the best of luck in the GP.

Janet
12-22-2008, 12:45 PM
I will probably be playing Goblins or Goyf Sligh, just because those are the last couple of decks that I've had the time to test = /

Ectoplasm
12-22-2008, 06:43 PM
No matter how you look at it, goblins has an amazing game 1 against anything not combo-based. That has to count for something?
The rest is a metagame call; what do you sideboard? With relic of progenitus hitting everything from loam to threshold and allrounders like K Grip I don't see a reason to discount goblins at all :)

mossivo1986
12-24-2008, 12:10 PM
Hello gentlemen. My name is Joel.

I am here to offer two experianced goblin pilots to a discussion/playtesting with a group of gp chicago players testing early on mws, and using ventrilo.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=304157#post304157

is the link please let me know on there or pm is your interested/

please have aim avalible and possibly ventrilo as that will be our client we are using mostly.

let me know
-Moss

Tacosnape
12-26-2008, 12:49 PM
@Ecto: I'm agreeably a fan of Gaea's Blessing in the sideboard as of late. Not only does it provide a random tricky out to Painter decks, it's also helped me once or twice in stopping a Loam engine in Aggro Loam matchups (And God is it sexy when it randomly cantrips into Warren Weirding.)

So here's my latest question with Goblins to ponder:

1. How bad do you really need basic lands, and why?

Here's my current manabase for RGB:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

So I'm curious as to the arguments for basic Mountains. Here are my arguments against:

A. We don't fear Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon. Magus dies to Incinerator, and if they want to drop a Blood Moon just to shut off Warren Weirding, let them go right ahead.

B. We don't necessarily fear nonbasic land destruction (Wasteland) all that badly. Goblins thrives on cheating land destruction via Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey.

C. Do we really fear Back to Basics? Krosan Grip can take it down if we have the mana open, we generally crush MUC anyway (Because, you know, it's so played), and against Faerie Stompy it doesn't matter a whole lot as we pretty much need both black and green on the board to have a fighting chance anyway, as Weirding/Hooligan/Grip are three of our best weapons in this matchup.

And so far, the only argument -for- Mountains is the ever annoying Price of Progress. So I'm curious to hear more.

ScatmanX
12-26-2008, 01:05 PM
On Blessing: Guess that 1 of as SB can be very interesting.

On landbuild:
I like having Basics in my deck. Recurring Wastelands have already bored me a lot, so I sugest at least 1 or 2 basic mountains to fetch in the deck. I also don´t like the full 8 Fetchs. The need I have for B or G colored mana isn´t all that much, and I´m always able to get them with 6-7 fetch + 6 duals.

On Tacos argumments:
A. Right. no fear for moon efects.
C. Right. Don´t think I can remenber a game were B2B shut me down, even in a R or RB build.
B. Oposing Wastelands have lost me quite a few games already. I fear them.

Maybe the new card from Conflux, Path to Exile, will be enough reason to run at least 1 or 2 basics in the deck.

Rood
12-26-2008, 01:21 PM
@Ecto: I'm agreeably a fan of Gaea's Blessing in the sideboard as of late. Not only does it provide a random tricky out to Painter decks, it's also helped me once or twice in stopping a Loam engine in Aggro Loam matchups (And God is it sexy when it randomly cantrips into Warren Weirding.)

So here's my latest question with Goblins to ponder:

1. How bad do you really need basic lands, and why?

Here's my current manabase for RGB:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

So I'm curious as to the arguments for basic Mountains. Here are my arguments against:

A. We don't fear Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon. Magus dies to Incinerator, and if they want to drop a Blood Moon just to shut off Warren Weirding, let them go right ahead.

B. We don't necessarily fear nonbasic land destruction (Wasteland) all that badly. Goblins thrives on cheating land destruction via Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey.

C. Do we really fear Back to Basics? Krosan Grip can take it down if we have the mana open, we generally crush MUC anyway (Because, you know, it's so played), and against Faerie Stompy it doesn't matter a whole lot as we pretty much need both black and green on the board to have a fighting chance anyway, as Weirding/Hooligan/Grip are three of our best weapons in this matchup.

And so far, the only argument -for- Mountains is the ever annoying Price of Progress. So I'm curious to hear more.


Running 8 Fetchlands I think is incorrect whether you want to run basics or not. I think you should replace 2 Fetchies for basic mountains. With Stifle/Waste.decks running around everywhere wouldn't you want to increase your chances to fight them by running less fetchies? Also basic mountain is very good especially against recurring Loam decks that use Wasteland repeatedly.

scrumdogg
12-26-2008, 02:15 PM
Running 8 Fetchlands I think is incorrect whether you want to run basics or not. I think you should replace 2 Fetchies for basic mountains. With Stifle/Waste.decks running around everywhere wouldn't you want to increase your chances to fight them by running less fetchies? Also basic mountain is very good especially against recurring Loam decks that use Wasteland repeatedly.

Exactly, there is a reason that my son & I run a Ghost Quarter in our Loam build. If y'all want to make our jobs simpler & let us Waste-lock you with less effort, please feel free to do so. Plus, Path of Exile will see play, regardless of general expert Legacy consensus one way or the other. It will see play for a multitude of reasons including 'new & shiny' effect, ease of acquisition versus Swords to Plowshares, and in regards to GP Chicago a fair proportion of players new to Legacy not necessarily having heard of STP... Plus you will have the people trying out STPs #5-8 in their deck. Why not take advantage of that & be able to get the basic land? Furthermore, Weirding is the primary removal in the deck, why would anyone be OK with that removal getting shafted by Moon effects? With the reduction in Incinerator numbers (from a sampling of the recent lists in this thread) you will probably have to burn a Matron to get an Incinerator. That doesn't seem efficient.
As to the combo matchup, has it been abandoned Game 1 in favor of maybe being able to address it Games 2 & 3 with seven SB cards and some mana disruption? Or is the theory that it will be so under-represented that Goblins can dodge it? As a plan, it seems sketchy...

Ectoplasm
12-26-2008, 03:13 PM
Regarding the basic lands, MUC is pretty much the new shit around where I live, because Fahad made it pretty popular around here. So yeah, it never hurts to have a couple around and like I already posted, I'm considering getting a singleton swamp as well (would require me to run a 4th bloodstained mire but it could replace a wooded foothills, or I could cut a mountain and run 8 fetch) because of MUC.

Also, dreadstill players around here have been experimenting with painter's servants so that explains the Gaea's Blessing. Never hurts to keep your K Grip in your hand for a dreadnought instead of wasting it on a painter, oftentimes they're great to have around because they make your piledrivers immortal.

I'm considering dropping the 4th random tech slot, which currently contains Mad Auntie, which sucks horribly, in favour of an extra weirding or a 23rd land, in which case I'm planning to try out cutting another mountain in favour of 2 rishadan ports. Anyone with experience running ports in a 3-colour build?

Avatara
12-28-2008, 09:47 AM
Back in the days when Goblin was big in extended (first rotation) there where a lot of decks that you had to beat as early as turn 3 (Reanimator, Life, etc).

Goblins used to run Rites of Initiation. Of course this isn't a goblin but that fact is irrelevant versus combo; because you wont have time to draw it with Goblin Ringleader or fetch it with Goblin Matron.

I honestly believe that Goblin Lackey -> Siege-Gang Commander -> Rites of Initiation was the main reason why Goblin Lackey got banned. Combo decks that don't run counters are just screaming to be crushed by Rites of Initiation.

Because a lot of Goblin decks are already running 4 x Siege-Gang Commander what's keeping us from exploiting this combo again?

Tacosnape
12-28-2008, 10:58 AM
Back in the days when Goblin was big in extended (first rotation) there where a lot of decks that you had to beat as early as turn 3 (Reanimator, Life, etc).

Goblins used to run Rites of Initiation. Of course this isn't a goblin but that fact is irrelevant versus combo; because you wont have time to draw it with Goblin Ringleader or fetch it with Goblin Matron.

I honestly believe that Goblin Lackey -> Siege-Gang Commander -> Rites of Initiation was the main reason why Goblin Lackey got banned. Combo decks that don't run counters are just screaming to be crushed by Rites of Initiation.

Because a lot of Goblin decks are already running 4 x Siege-Gang Commander what's keeping us from exploiting this combo again?

Because it's awful. In most matchups, Goblins is alright if it keeps goblins on the board. Hell, people assume they aren't going to keep enough Goblins on the board now that most don't run 4 Gempalm Incinerators.

Secondly, even against Combo? That's not fast enough. You're talking about doing the Rites on turn three after the Lackey hits and drops the Siege-Gang. How are you stopping them from going off the turn after you dropped the Lackey, or the turn after the Siege-Gang hits? And moreso? This scenario only works if you catch the Lackey, the Siege-Gang, and the Rites all in your first 8-9 cards.

MANMAN
12-31-2008, 01:42 PM
So I've been playing a pretty straight forward build. No big tricks here. Just looking for some critique.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 War chief
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
4 Pile driver
4 Incinerator
3 Tin Street hooligan
3 Commander

6 Mountains
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 BR Fetch land
4 GR Fetch land

Board:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 REB
4 Pyrokenesis
3 Krosan Grip

I was having trouble against Dreadstill so i figured the main board Hooligan should help with that.

Ectoplasm
12-31-2008, 01:49 PM
Looks like a good deck, though there's no reason to not splash black and get weirdings. Also, since you're running just 2 colours, what's wrong with a couple of ports?

GoldenCid
12-31-2008, 01:53 PM
I was having trouble against Dreadstill so i figured the main board Hooligan should help with that.

I tested hooligan (1x) mainboard. I saw that at least in that nunmber of copies, if you play warchief, hooligan ability is useless. For that reason, i'm running 1x goblin tinkerer. I has haste with warchief if it's needed tap it.

In concordance with Ectoplasm, maybe 2 -3 Rishadan ports would be healthy.

Ectoplasm
12-31-2008, 08:22 PM
The thing about Tinkerer is, when you need it the most, it won't have haste.
'The most' in this case means against a SOFI or jitte, which means you can be pretty sure you won't have living warchiefs.

That's how I see it at least :)

ccook92mtg
01-01-2009, 03:17 PM
Here is the deck I came up with to start playing with.
4x Mountains
4x wasteland
4x bloodstained mire
4x wooded foothills
4x badlands
3x taiga

4x goblin lackey
4x goblin warchief
4x goblin ringleader
4x mogg fanatic
4x goblin matron
4x goblin piledriver
3x gempalm incinerator
2x siege-gang commander
2x warren weirding
1x kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
1x tin-street hooligan

4x aethe vial
Sideboard:
2x engineered explosives
3x cabal therapy
3x krosan grip
2x earwig squad
4x chalice of the void

I sort of want to change the sideboard around a little bit. I am thinking of putting the earwig squad into the main board and taking the tin-street out just to give me at least one in the main board. Just tell me what yall think.

Eseph
01-02-2009, 10:22 AM
So I've been playing a pretty straight forward build. No big tricks here. Just looking for some critique.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 War chief
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
4 Pile driver
4 Incinerator
3 Tin Street hooligan
3 Commander

6 Mountains
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 BR Fetch land
4 GR Fetch land

Board:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 REB
4 Pyrokenesis
3 Krosan Grip

I was having trouble against Dreadstill so i figured the main board Hooligan should help with that.

Stingscourger is your friend. Though most people seem to be incredibly reluctant on him, he is amazing against both Dreadstill and Team America. I'd honestly stick with 1 TSH in the main, as you have matrons to tutor him if need be, and keep extras in the board for when you need em.

Also to the idea of rites of initiation, why not just run Piledrivers? Rather we already have 'em, and they fill that same role. Lackey->SGC + Piledriver, is lethal on turn 3 anyways. Plus for anyone running Kiki-Jiki he has the same effect (as SGC) in that scenario, providing lethal on turn 3.

Don Tamac
01-02-2009, 02:13 PM
Hi!

I am about to enter a small tournament, and expect to meet Team America, and I have never seen that deck in action. Is there something special to think about? What must I deal with, and what can I ignore?

My decklist is almost the same as the deck Nickrit posted (post 1785). My sideboard is:

4 Chalice of the void
4 Relic of progenitus
3 Krosan grip
1 Earwig squad
1 Goblin tinkerer
1 Tranquility
1 Tranquil domain

What to side out, and what to side in?

I'm thinking of having two Earwig in the deck, but can't find the legitimate reasons to actually do so. Frogtosser for extra tempo?

I have a positive matchup against the rest of the field. Just need some input on how to beat TA. Realize that first turn Aether vial or Lackey is golden...

Appreciate it if someone would take the time to share their experience.

Tacosnape
01-02-2009, 02:45 PM
So I've been playing a pretty straight forward build. No big tricks here. Just looking for some critique.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 War chief
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
4 Pile driver
4 Incinerator
3 Tin Street hooligan
3 Commander

6 Mountains
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 BR Fetch land
4 GR Fetch land

Board:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 REB
4 Pyrokenesis
3 Krosan Grip

I was having trouble against Dreadstill so i figured the main board Hooligan should help with that.

-4 Tormod's Crypt, +4 Relic of Progenitus. If you want to beat Threshold without Black in your list, Relic of Progenitus is how you do it.

chokin
01-02-2009, 03:57 PM
Relic is almost as good as Leyline.
Pros:
It's easier to cast if you don't open a Leyline if it's not in your opening 7.
Extras cantrip.
Extras can remove spells one by one as they drop to the yard.
Fits in Mono and non black Goblin decks pretty well.
Can remove your yard to fight Goyfs and other global graveyard dependent stuff.

Cons:
It doesn't stop Countryside Crusher. Or stuff like that.
Is worse against Ichorid than Leyline (and Crypt if you're on the play).

Basically Leyline > Relic > Crypt. amirite?

Also, hell yes Stingscourger is techy vs TS and PD.

Also I see the battle between Tinkerer and TSH is still around. Is there a more final say on it?

MANMAN
01-02-2009, 05:25 PM
I tested hooligan (1x) mainboard. I saw that at least in that nunmber of copies, if you play warchief, hooligan ability is useless. For that reason, i'm running 1x goblin tinkerer. I has haste with warchief if it's needed tap it.

In concordance with Ectoplasm, maybe 2 -3 Rishadan ports would be healthy.

I used to play with Tinkerer, but never seemed to do any good when I had him.

Maybe Sting Scourger is the way to go?

Tacosnape
01-02-2009, 07:37 PM
Relic is almost as good as Leyline.
Pros:
It's easier to cast if you don't open a Leyline if it's not in your opening 7.
Extras cantrip.
Extras can remove spells one by one as they drop to the yard.
Fits in Mono and non black Goblin decks pretty well.
Can remove your yard to fight Goyfs and other global graveyard dependent stuff.

Cons:
It doesn't stop Countryside Crusher. Or stuff like that.
Is worse against Ichorid than Leyline (and Crypt if you're on the play).

Basically Leyline > Relic > Crypt. amirite?

Also, hell yes Stingscourger is techy vs TS and PD.

Also I see the battle between Tinkerer and TSH is still around. Is there a more final say on it?

I'd argue Relic is far stronger than Leyline. It cantrips, it's better against Tarmogoyf, and it's highly playable if it's not in your opening hand and is far less susceptible to removal.

As for Tinkerer vs. TSH, I don't think this battle should by any means exist anymore. If you run green, you run TSH and Krosan Grip. If you don't run green, you have a battle between running Tinkerer and just ignoring the artifact problem in favor of running other things.

Mantis
01-03-2009, 10:18 AM
A look on deckcheck.net showed me that more than half of the Goblin decks in the T8's over there are actually RW Goblins decks. I found this very odd as I am convinced, mono R, RB or RGB Goblins is most definately the correct choice (depending on the metagame). Does anyone have an explanation for this?

For reference: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Goblins&format=Legacy

Tacosnape
01-03-2009, 10:35 AM
A look on deckcheck.net showed me that more than half of the Goblin decks in the T8's over there are actually RW Goblins decks. I found this very odd as I am convinced, mono R, RB or RGB Goblins is most definately the correct choice (depending on the metagame). Does anyone have an explanation for this?

It's the frequency phenomenon. If you go to 50 person tournament where 20 people play deck A and 3 people play deck B, Even if Deck B is better than Deck A, chances are pretty good that Deck A is going to make top 8 more often than deck B.

This point is even more true when Deck A and Deck B are both variations of the same deck and are thereby having similar reactions to the metagame. In this case, Deck A will almost always do better than Deck B just because of the number of people playing it, especially since the edge Deck A has over Deck B when they're both Goblins variants is minimal.

Oh, and, also? Don't forget Warren Weirding helps lose the mirror.

Nessaja
01-03-2009, 01:00 PM
Above would be true if R/w goblins was more populair then Rb or Rbg goblins but I believe the opposite to be true where I live atleast.

R/w Goblins deals with aggro and combo better as far as I can tell.

Seriously
01-03-2009, 02:16 PM
A look on deckcheck.net showed me that more than half of the Goblin decks in the T8's over there are actually RW Goblins decks. I found this very odd as I am convinced, mono R, RB or RGB Goblins is most definately the correct choice (depending on the metagame). Does anyone have an explanation for this?

For reference: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Goblins&format=Legacy



well from what I could tell, they were all from foreign countries. not that, that is a bad thing, but chances are its a less developed meta, so they could get away with running less than optimal decks against other less than optimal decks. I saw a whole bunch of random tech too, goblin goon ? goblin prospector ? pain lands ? goblin king, how bad would that suck in the mirror ?

Ectoplasm
01-03-2009, 02:21 PM
People played RW a couple of years ago, how recent are those decks? Also, they could be from random 17-man craptourneys with bird decks in the top 8 etc.

Nessaja
01-03-2009, 02:38 PM
well from what I could tell, they were all from foreign countries. not that, that is a bad thing, but chances are its a less developed meta, so they could get away with running less than optimal decks against other less than optimal decks.
I think that's a bit of a dense statement.. Anyway, browsing through pages I don't see much american tournaments at all.. if any, so the same applies both ways.

As far as I can see the wins posted are just as legit as the wins posted for R/Rb/Rbg goblins. The w splash has an advantage in the mirror as well against several other decks (aggro) that are apparently more dominant in the places where the deck is played. What color you splash (if at all) should be a meta call, I don't believe one is better then the other by definition.

Seriously
01-03-2009, 03:20 PM
I think that's a bit of a dense statement.


I dont. the same applies to tournaments in small towns in the US. people in foreign countries and those who live in smaller towns who prefer to trade for cards instead of buy them online have access to smaller card pools and are more prone to run less than optimal decks. a lot of ebay sellers wont ship internationally and then even if they do they still wont ship to certain countries, like italy or spain, specifically due to high theft rates. just because every last US tournament isnt listed on deckcheck doesnt mean that they didnt take place.

also, I never said that the wins werent legitimate. but from the few pages I looked through, there were more 1st place wins from other variants than RW, even though there seemed to be more RW decks posted. I saw a lot of dates going back to atleast july 07, warren wierding wasnt as popular back then, I dont even know if it was printed at that point. so I can see how RW could have been somewhat better. you may not believe the black removal is better than the white, but I do. most of those decks ran only 3 copies of swords. 3 copies that arent tutorable in any way and get completely hosed by ringleader. sure its one mana cheaper, but at a loss of a lot of syngery.

Nessaja
01-03-2009, 04:54 PM
Sir, you really don't need Ebay to get cards, just because that's the way to get it in the US doesn't mean that the rest of the world needs to do it the same way. I stick with my opinion, it's a dense statement. Comparing the rest of the world to "small towns in the US" is... you know lets just stay on the topic of Goblins.

I don't see why you would go back all the way to 07, just look at the past year and R/w has a strong pressence, regardless of what you believe or what synergy there is, apparently it gets results.

But if you want to talk about StP vs Warren's Weirding

StP
+Targettable
+1 mana

Warren Weirding
+Tutorable

Note that white gives Disenchant in the sideboard as well without the need to splash another color and also orims chant, for what it's worth. Again, I believe that the color splash is meta dependand and for the people that T8'd with Rw goblins they likely made the right meta call.

MadManMax
01-03-2009, 05:16 PM
In what kind of meta you would suggest playing Rw standart Rw list over standart Rgb list? Which splash would be most efective in trash-goblins-affinity meta?

GreenOne
01-03-2009, 06:49 PM
Which splash would be most efective in trash-goblins-affinity meta?

I'd go with a green and white splash for 8x enchantress effects and just play enchantress in that meta.

NoGameShow
01-03-2009, 06:56 PM
But if you want to talk about StP vs Warren's Weirding

StP
+Targettable
+1 mana

Warren Weirding
+Tutorable

Note that white gives Disenchant in the sideboard as well without the need to splash another color and also orims chant, for what it's worth. Again, I believe that the color splash is meta dependand and for the people that T8'd with Rw goblins they likely made the right meta call.



You also have to remember if you flip a Warren Weirding off of a Ringleader it goes to your hand and probably 70 percent of the time Warchief is making your Weirdings cost one. As far as the disenchant effect goes Krosan Grip is mostly superior in the format of Counterbalance.

FoulQ
01-03-2009, 08:42 PM
Hi, I was wondering about my own Rbg decklist, I know I'm no expert but here is what I've come up with:

SPELLS (38)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 AEther Vial
3 Warren Weirding

LANDS (22)
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
3 Mountain
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Earwig Squad

I was wondering about my mana base because I don't see that many basics really...just wondering what you guys thought...and in the Rw debate, you are both right: it's a great build for an undeveloped meta, perhaps the best for goblins, if it needs targeted removal THAT bad..but that's about it.

Mantis
01-04-2009, 05:52 AM
@Nessaja:
Thanks, that explains it. They probably expect a lot of mirror matches so Goblin Pyromancer and STP make a lot of sense. Although I fail to see why Mono R would not be straight up better in those metagames as you are immune to Wastelands and have Gempalm Incinerator to deal with their Goblins.

But there are a lot of suboptimal lists out there, you just can not defend stuff like Goblin Goon. I fail to see why those people don't just run more Siege Gang Commanders instead as I found that and Gempalm Incinerator the way to beat the mirror match.


YAs far as the disenchant effect goes Krosan Grip is mostly superior in the format of Counterbalance.
You do not side in Krosan Grip to deal with Counterbalance, that is just wrong. Counterbalance is not really good against Goblins, as Lackey and Vial will come down before Counterbalance. The rest of your important spells cost 3 or more and Counterbalance has a hard time answering those. In fact, smart Counterbalance players side out the Balance against Goblins. An exception could be made for Dreadstill where you want Krosan Grip to deal with Dreadnought.

Ectoplasm
01-04-2009, 07:34 AM
2 of my friends play Dreadstill and I must say that their chances of winning increase tremendously at the moment they drop a cb, even if it's without top.
They can just keep a trinket mage in their library with top assistance and shut down half of your curve (or at least 9 cards if you're running a shooter) and an early vial or lackey often catches a fow.

I wouldn't trivialize CB like that :) Dreadstill is a good matchup for us, since the inherent card disadvantage in stifling a dreadnought AND keeping a backup plan in case of a tin street hooligan/weirding is exactly what a goblin player likes, but free counterspells like CB can and will make up for this.

kicks_422
01-04-2009, 07:52 AM
But most of the people playing Counterbalance (and the correct thing to do, too) side them out Games 2 and 3 against Goblins for more removal/sweepers, so siding in Grips for CB is wasted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Mantis
01-04-2009, 08:07 AM
2 of my friends play Dreadstill and I must say that their chances of winning increase tremendously at the moment they drop a cb, even if it's without top.
They can just keep a trinket mage in their library with top assistance and shut down half of your curve (or at least 9 cards if you're running a shooter) and an early vial or lackey often catches a fow.

I wouldn't trivialize CB like that :) Dreadstill is a good matchup for us, since the inherent card disadvantage in stifling a dreadnought AND keeping a backup plan in case of a tin street hooligan/weirding is exactly what a goblin player likes, but free counterspells like CB can and will make up for this.
Only time I care about CB is if they also have a Dreadnought out. That is to say, I will side in Krosan Grip to deal with Dreadnought, it's never a dead card in the matchup because Grip deals with Factory, Top and sometimes EE, B2B and the ocassional player that didn't do his homework and kept Counterbalance in. I'm not sure how good Weirding is against Dreadstill, they can just sac a Trinket Mage or activate Factory in resp and sac that.

Anyway, against Counterbalance Threshold I would advise you to not side your Grips in, assuming they don't run Moat or Moatlike enchantments.

Ectoplasm
01-04-2009, 08:26 AM
But most of the people playing Counterbalance (and the correct thing to do, too) side them out Games 2 and 3 against Goblins for more removal/sweepers, so siding in Grips for CB is wasted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Siding in grips against Dreadstill is never a wasted effort, like Mantis already said.
I'm just trying to make a case against trivializing CB :) I know it can be played around (just keep a lackey/vial in your hand, play it and if he isn't lucky and gets a dreadnought/stifle on top of his deck he'll have the choice between putting his top on his library and getting the same 3 cards next turn, while you can play everything else, or getting uncounterable goblins on the other side of the board because he was foolish enough to let you play a vial) but fact of the matter is, he *will* get a dreadnought in his top 3 sometimes and he *will* get blind counters right when you don't want them.

I don't know, I just don't like playing against CB :frown:

Avatara
01-04-2009, 08:59 AM
Doesn't the rise of Tombstalker and Phyrexian Dreadnought make Stingscourger more favorable than Warren Weirding? It can be vialed in, doesn't require a splash, gives you a blocker/attacker and can target creatures (except for Mongoose).

Tacosnape
01-04-2009, 11:04 AM
I don't see why you would go back all the way to 07, just look at the past year and R/w has a strong pressence, regardless of what you believe or what synergy there is, apparently it gets results.

Note that white gives Disenchant in the sideboard as well without the need to splash another color and also orims chant, for what it's worth. Again, I believe that the color splash is meta dependand and for the people that T8'd with Rw goblins they likely made the right meta call.

This is noted, except that Results don't always equate to Optimal, and none of the lists mentioned are running Orim's Chant.


You also have to remember if you flip a Warren Weirding off of a Ringleader it goes to your hand and probably 70 percent of the time Warchief is making your Weirdings cost one.

This is noted, except that throwing arbitrary and probably exaggerated numbers around isn't a good way to make your point.


2 of my friends play Dreadstill and I must say that their chances of winning increase tremendously at the moment they drop a cb, even if it's without top.is.

The bright side of this whole argument is that we aren't going to board in Krosan Grip to stop Counterbalance, we're going to board it in to kill Dreadnoughts and Mishra's Factories, and if Counterbalances happen to be included in the crossfire, yippy skippy.


Doesn't the rise of Tombstalker and Phyrexian Dreadnought make Stingscourger more favorable than Warren Weirding? It can be vialed in, doesn't require a splash, gives you a blocker/attacker and can target creatures (except for Mongoose).

How exactly is that more favorable than a card that for two mana kills either of the cards you mentioned?

Nessaja
01-04-2009, 01:26 PM
How exactly is that more favorable than a card that for two mana kills either of the cards you mentioned?

Vialable means that it isn't counterable, against Dreadnought that's worth something. Stingscourger offers a lot, whether it's removing a blocker or a key creature against a deck playing creatures it should always be effective. Warren's Weirding is much more conditional in that respect.

whienot
01-04-2009, 04:45 PM
Vialable means that it isn't counterable, against Dreadnought that's worth something.

Stingscourger wouldn't be counterable with vial, but it can be stifled. I hear Dreadnoughts come with those.

Avatara
01-04-2009, 05:18 PM
Phyrexian Dreadnought is backup up by Mishra's Factory and Trinket Mage making it hard to hit with Warren Weirding (If it can get past the counters at all).


Stingscourger wouldn't be counterable with vial, but it can be stifled. I hear Dreadnoughts come with those.

They need Stifle for their Dreadnought and they have a lot more countermagic than stifles in their deck.

Team America can remove your splash as early as turn 2-3 with Extirpate on your Badland. Stingscourger will also solve any problem that Tombstalker will give you. That leaves your goblins combined with Bloodmark Mentor to keep the Goyfs at bay while you your Siege-Gang Commanders win the game.

Seriously
01-04-2009, 05:26 PM
Sir, you really don't need Ebay to get cards, just because that's the way to get it in the US doesn't mean that the rest of the world needs to do it the same way. I stick with my opinion, it's a dense statement. Comparing the rest of the world to "small towns in the US" is... you know lets just stay on the topic of Goblins.

no, you dont need ebay and only ebay to get cards. however, ebay has the largest carpool to choose from out of anywhere else on the planet. buying cards from websites dealing in mtg resale has buyers at best, paying average prices and and worst paying exaggerated and outdated prices. also, those sites dont re-up on old stock at the rate it gets posted on ebay.

saying that foreign countries have equal access to a niche market collectable item on the same scale as that items country of origin is not only dense by incredbily biased as well.


I don't see why you would go back all the way to 07, just look at the past year and R/w has a strong pressence, regardless of what you believe or what synergy there is, apparently it gets results.

ok, staying in 2008, there was a recent 1st place, beating out ichorid, merfolk, ichorid and solidarity. hardly the best decks in the format. aside from that, there wasnt a 1st place from RW goblins for 7 months before that, from december back to may. nothing. sure it had some wins going back from may into 2007, but warren weirding wasnt even released until february 2008.



But if you want to talk about StP vs Warren's Weirding

StP
+Targettable
+1 mana

Warren Weirding
+Tutorable


stp
+1 can target
+1 one mana cc

warren weirding

+1 tutorable
+1 can be grabbed with ringleader
+1 can be recured with wart, for the people who insist on running wart
+1 can also possibly cost one mana with warchief out


Note that white gives Disenchant in the sideboard as well without the need to splash another color and also orims chant, for what it's worth. Again, I believe that the color splash is meta dependand and for the people that T8'd with Rw goblins they likely made the right meta call.

they only made the right meta call if they got first place. disenchant in inferior to grip, thats almost as bad as suggesting R/G or R/G/B lists run naturalize.

Ectoplasm
01-05-2009, 07:16 PM
Goblin Razerunners
2rr
Creature - Goblin Shaman? Rare
1{R}, Sacrifice a land : Put a +1/+1 counter on Goblin Razerunners.
At the end of your turn, you may have Goblin Razerunners deal damage to target player equal to the number of +1/+1 counters on Goblin Razerunners.

3/4

Looks pretty decent, except for being a huge lightning rod and potential graham's-number-for-one but I'm gonna try this guy out anyway.

Avatara
01-05-2009, 08:28 PM
I doubt Goblin Razerunners will be played... it can't compete with Siege-Gang Commander.

beastman
01-05-2009, 08:33 PM
I'd play Wort over the Razerunners. He looks way too mana intensive.

Ectoplasm
01-05-2009, 08:54 PM
Yeah on second thought it's not very good, the only thing positive about it is the fat 3/4 body. You just can't afford saccing lands only to get it StP'ed.

Still it's kind of a cool card. Oh well, got goblin wanderers left, who knows what they'll be :) And 'something' rioters sounds like a goblin and who knows, we might get a Jund legendary goblin as well?

I'm just trying to find something to be excited about in Conflux.

Nessaja
01-06-2009, 02:03 AM
no, you dont need ebay and only ebay to get cards. however, ebay has the largest carpool to choose from out of anywhere else on the planet. buying cards from websites dealing in mtg resale has buyers at best, paying average prices and and worst paying exaggerated and outdated prices. also, those sites dont re-up on old stock at the rate it gets posted on ebay.

saying that foreign countries have equal access to a niche market collectable item on the same scale as that items country of origin is not only dense by incredbily biased as well.

I'm able to get every card I want without using Ebay. The only difference is price and that is only because the dollar is beyond low currently. For legacy players that 2 dollar card difference is hardly an issue when you consider the prizes we have to pay. It's funny that you attempt to turn it around by calling me dense but unlike you, I actually live outside the US and unlike you I actually have real life experience with getting cards outside the US. I'd strongly advice to you to start talking about Goblins and dropping this.


ok, staying in 2008, there was a recent 1st place,

T8's are relevant, 1st place is nice but is reliant on so much more then deck choice.


stp
+1 can target
+1 one mana cc

warren weirding

+1 tutorable
+1 can be grabbed with ringleader
+1 can be recured with wart, for the people who insist on running wart
+1 can also possibly cost one mana with warchief out[/cost]

Here's the thing though, if you're able to use a ringleader you're already in very good shape with this deck, you're describing win-more situations. The problem remains, it's not targetable, people dont use Diablic Edict over Smother either while Smothers drawback is big as well. Anyone playing against Goblins knows that they only have limited removal and will play around it/with it.


they only made the right meta call if they got first place. disenchant in inferior to grip, thats almost as bad as suggesting R/G or R/G/B lists run naturalize.

Disenchant is suboptimal but it's not always worth butchering your manabase even more. I already said before, there's more to tournaments then just the first place.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
01-06-2009, 02:12 AM
Shouldn't you play Goon in that slot, since he's pretty much your best chance against Tarmogoyfs?

Is that just me?

GreenOne
01-06-2009, 07:52 AM
Shouldn't you play Goon in that slot, since he's pretty much your best chance against Tarmogoyfs?

Is that just me?
Yeah, Goon is definetly one of the best solutions to goyf MonoRed has. It's also a solution to plague or even double plague sometimes.
Mogg War marshal is also great, having a good synergy with Piledriver and Incinerator, and allowing for 3 fog effect against a goyf. Stingscourger is so-so against Goyf, but great against Tombstalker and Dreadnough.

Avatara
01-06-2009, 08:36 AM
I can actually see Goblin Goon become playable again in mono red now that people aren't packing tons of Pyroclasm anymore. Combined with Relic of Progenitus you have really nice cards available vs Threshold. Goblin Goon also helps you race the combo decks (combined with Pyrostatic Pillar). Throw in Stingscourger and you'll have a way to fight Dread Nought and Tombstalker. Mono red will also allow you to run less if any fetchlands allowing you to dodge stifle somewhat. Maybe no fetchlands at all will allow us to make room for 1 or 2 more goblins?

Remaining sideboard slots could be filled with stuff like Pyroblast.

GreenOne
01-06-2009, 08:39 AM
Remaining sideboard slots could be filled with stuff like Pyroblast.
Or Blood Moon / Price of Progress

Shriekmaw
01-06-2009, 08:43 AM
Goblin Razerunners
2rr
Creature - Goblin Shaman? Rare
1{R}, Sacrifice a land : Put a +1/+1 counter on Goblin Razerunners.
At the end of your turn, you may have Goblin Razerunners deal damage to target player equal to the number of +1/+1 counters on Goblin Razerunners.

3/4

Looks pretty decent, except for being a huge lightning rod and potential graham's-number-for-one but I'm gonna try this guy out anyway.


I think its a win more card in goblins. I can't justify cutting slots to fix this guy in. Seems like a good card in some situations, but its just a win more. Reminds me of the whole kiki-jiki debate.

GreenOne
01-06-2009, 08:50 AM
I think its a win more card in goblins. I can't justify cutting slots to fix this guy in. Seems like a good card in some situations, but its just a win more. Reminds me of the whole kiki-jiki debate.

This guy is A LOT worse than Kiki. It's worse than Lightning Crafter too.
At least Kiki+Crafter offers some combo action.

Mantis
01-06-2009, 08:59 AM
Tarmogoyf is not as much as a problem as you might think. If Goblins functions properly, Goyf is forced to be a defensive weapon. If you get a bunch of Goblins down + Piledriver, you can force a Goyf blocking the Piledriver. If the Goblins player is forced on defense, you can just chump it with Matron or Fanatic for a while and try to stabilize. But sure, just as every other deck in this format you will lose games to Goyf.

Also, playing Mono Red I have Gempalmed Goyf countless of times. Post board there's Relic of Progenitus and a 0/1 Goyf shouldn't be too hard to kill.

Goblin Goon just seems kinda janky. He is hard to cast and his drawback makes him 'win more' in situations where you are ahead and useless when you are behind on board position. He also does nothing against double Plague assuming they have at least one creature. Also, I prefer to have as few situationally good cards in my deck as possible, currently the only one is Goblin Tinkerer who can at least attack and can dumped on the board to cut off the opponent from any artifact action.

BTW: I have switched to Mono Red Goblins after losing too many games due to Price of Progress, Back 2 Basics, Stifle/Wasteland and just not having the right color at the right time. Mono R just seems more fitting to my metagame where there is a lot of MUC, TA and Burn.

@Ectoplasm:
Will you be at the GPT Chicago in Utrecht? If so, we should meet and exchange thoughts about Goblins.

Ectoplasm
01-06-2009, 09:16 AM
I will, most likely :) Depends on transportation but right now it doesn't look like it will be a problem.

ScatmanX
01-06-2009, 11:14 AM
Goblin Goon should not be thounght as win more, because lets sey the opponent has a 5/6 Goyf, and you have a lackey, a Ringleader and a Matron down. Goon would kind of seal the deal for you.

The new goblin looks bad. Too mana expensive for a small efect.

What would you guys play in the SB of a MonoR build? would you consider Anarchy against Moat, Enchantress.deck, and other stuff?
Another Question: Is Pirostatic Pillar that good? Cause I think it Isn´t. I'm thinking of even trying Null Rod, that would work like wonders agains't lot's of combo decks (stops LED, Moxes). Of course, we would loose Vial, but agains't combo, I don't think thats the gratest problem.

Tacosnape
01-06-2009, 11:40 AM
In a mono-red sideboard? Play the best red has to offer. 4 Pyrokinesis, 4 Relic of Progenitus (Red shall not fear the Tarmogoyf!), and possibly 4 Blood Moon.

Mantis
01-06-2009, 11:45 AM
I could see Pyrokinesis being sexy against ANT, although they probably stop revealing at 6 in fear of another Ad Naseum coming. Relic and Chalice are no brainers and I will put some Tinkerers in the board as well. Perhaps another Stingscourger or Gempalm Incinerator will fill out the board. I actually think Pillar + Pyrokinesis could be good against ANT, you will take them by surprise at the very least. Thorn of Amethyst is another option.


Goblin Goon should not be thounght as win more, because lets sey the opponent has a 5/6 Goyf, and you have a lackey, a Ringleader and a Matron down. Goon would kind of seal the deal for you.
Right so would Siege Gang Commander, except he doesn't suck in every other situation this game could present to you. Or you know, Goblin Piledriver.. What are they going to do, block your Piley? Their Goyf dies AND your Lackey connects, or do they chose to block Lackey and proceed to lose to lethal damage. I mean you are presenting a rare situation here, you have played Lackey, Ringleader AND Matron and are still not able to be ahead. Yet, still that situation can be solved.

Also, how much Goons were you planning to run, all 4? I mean otherwise you won't draw them anyway and if you are going to fetch it with Matron you could just set up Siege Gang or Piledriver instead.

Just run 3 or 4 Siege Gang Commanders and the appropiate 23 or 24 lands, that should solve your Goyf problems. The only way I lose to Threshold is if I don't draw the right combination of mana/buisiness or if they counter/remove my critical spells and I have no buisiness. If I get to resolve a 4 or 5 mana Goblin, I should win regardless.

HdH_Cthulhu
01-06-2009, 11:57 AM
BTW: I have switched to Mono Red Goblins after losing too many games due to Price of Progress, Back 2 Basics, Stifle/Wasteland and just not having the right color at the right time. Mono R just seems more fitting to my metagame where there is a lot of MUC, TA and Burn.



I also switched to Mono Red with 4 wastelands 4 ports 14 basics and i found it really consistent! But i miss krosan grip...
You are right Its realy only metagame dependent, you have to choose what is better a stabile mana base or a splash!

about goblin goon: every 25 pages someone suggest him, then people dismiss him!

ScatmanX
01-06-2009, 12:22 PM
Well, I figure the best MonoR SB would be a combination of these:

4xPyroknesis
4xCotV
2-6xRelic or/and Tormords
0-4xPrice of Progress (better than Blood Moon I think)
0-4xPyrostatic Pillar
0-4xNull Rod
0-1xGoblin Tinkerer
0-2x Anarchy

I'm sorry my ignorance, but how is Pyroknesis good agains't ANT?

Ectoplasm
01-06-2009, 12:24 PM
@Mantis

Pyrokinesis only hits creatures :)

Tacosnape
01-06-2009, 02:40 PM
Null Rod is a neat idea. I like it far better than Chalice of the Void as an anti-ANT piece. And the thought of packing a set of Pyrokinesis and a set of Null Rod against Affinity makes my girlfriend wet, and she doesn't even know what I'm talking about.

All this said, it's got a ways to go in order to take me away from my current Storm Combo strategy, which is just to take the loss and try to increase my chances of winning everything else.

Mantis
01-06-2009, 03:01 PM
I fail to see the advantage of Null Rod to be honest. It shuts down your Vial (which you could side out though) and does everything Vial does only Storm could have killed you by the time you set up Null Rod. Additionally, if you draw multiple Chalices you can set one at 0 and one at 1. Null Rod shuts down Top but is that even relevant? Turn 2 might be too late a lot of the time, whilst Chalice comes down on turn 1.

GoldenCid
01-06-2009, 05:53 PM
Has anybody a list of a consistent monored gobos???

Mantis
01-06-2009, 06:16 PM
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Lackey
4 Piley
3 Siege Gang
4 Fanatic
3 Gempalm
1 Stingscourger
4 Warchief
1 Tinkerer
4 Vial
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Port

The land count is high and I like that. I'm currently going back and forth between Siege Gang Commander #4, Gempalm#3 and #4, Tinkerer #1 and Stingscourger #2.

Hope it helps.

GoldenCid
01-06-2009, 06:20 PM
Shouldn't blood moon go in main deck??
Would you play any copy of mutavault??

Mantis
01-06-2009, 06:23 PM
Shouldn't blood moon go in main deck??
Would you play any copy of mutavault??
I have considered Mutavault but Goblins is way too mana intensive, you are basically never using your mana and you don't want to risk losing the Mutavault when you activate it to a removal spell.

Blood Moon seems good as a sideboard card I guess, but we don't have much trouble with the decks Blood Moon is particulary good against. Landstill, ITF, 4C Thresh etc.

Seriously
01-07-2009, 01:17 AM
I'm able to get every card I want without using Ebay. The only difference is price and that is only because the dollar is beyond low currently. For legacy players that 2 dollar card difference is hardly an issue when you consider the prizes we have to pay. It's funny that you attempt to turn it around by calling me dense but unlike you, I actually live outside the US and unlike you I actually have real life experience with getting cards outside the US. I'd strongly advice to you to start talking about Goblins and dropping this.

fine, I give up, you sir are the master of getting jank over priced cards outside of ebay. at double the time, double the price, cool. Im glad you can speak for every foreign person in every foreign country and everyone in those places always has equal access to all playsets of all cards ever printed all the time.

so feel free to play suboptimal decks, against other suboptimal players playing their suboptimal decks in suboptimal tournaments and in the end consider yourself a winner for placing anywhere in the top 8. good luck with that.

GreenOne
01-07-2009, 02:07 AM
fine, I give up, you sir are the master of getting jank over priced cards outside of ebay. at double the time, double the price, cool. Im glad you can speak for every foreign person in every foreign country and everyone in those places always has equal access to all playsets of all cards ever printed all the time.

so feel free to play suboptimal decks, against other suboptimal players playing their suboptimal decks in suboptimal tournaments and in the end consider yourself a winner for placing anywhere in the top 8. good luck with that.

Didn't want to get into the discussion, but I live in Italy, and never had any problem getting cards through Ebay or other means. I never played sub-optimal decks and found good gountlets in the tournaments I played. Actually, I'm buying cards at fair prices because of a low dollar value. The only card I had problems with buying was a Moat (which was too high priced to buy at the event) but I guess Italian Legend Moats are also cheaper than English Legends Moat. Access to cards is not a reason, at least not for legacy.

Media314r8
01-07-2009, 05:44 AM
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Lackey
4 Piley
3 Siege Gang
4 Fanatic
3 Gempalm
1 Stingscourger
4 Warchief
1 Tinkerer
4 Vial
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Port

The land count is high and I like that. I'm currently going back and forth between Siege Gang Commander #4, Gempalm#3 and #4, Tinkerer #1 and Stingscourger #2.

Hope it helps.

Your only way to remove things is gempalm (aside from the anti-synergistic fanatic), so I would recomend running relics MB to shrink goyfs/stall Tombstalkers, or 4 mutavaults to increase your incinerator's power. Without the edicts, you will often find your goblin army starring down an early goyf and mucking up your aggro plan. (keep in mind incinerator will be in the bin when checking an incinerated goyf's P/T) I personally like:

4 vial
4 relic

4 lackey
4 Driver
1 Stingscourger
1 Tinkerer
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Incinerator
4 Ringleader
3 Siege-gang

4 waste
4 mutavault
15 mountain

SB:
4 king (only way in RR of 'dealing' with plague)
4 magus of the moon (not a goblin, but hot through vial when your opponent is tapped out)
4 chalice (pretend to have a shot against combo)
3 smash to smitherines (vs jitte, combo, stacks. Tinkerer doesnt usually solve active jitte, and 3 damage can be a win against an overzealous ANT who doesn't chant goblins... this could obv be 3 fanatics or 3 tinkerers if you expect more ichorid/dreadnaughts in your meta)

Fanatics come out for relics as your good opening plays other than vial and lackey... as fanatic basicly kills bobs, grims, and RFGs bridges nowadays.

Mantis
01-07-2009, 07:46 AM
Without the edicts, you will often find your goblin army starring down an early goyf and mucking up your aggro plan. True, but automatically mean you will lose that game. In fact, you don't care about whatever your opponent has on board as long as you can keep him on defense. In the long game you will drag it out with your Siege-Gang and Ringleaders anyway.

Rishadan Port and Wasteland are very synergystic as they can screw someone out of mana. But that is not the purpose, I am trying to gain tempo by playing Port and Waste and thus additional attack phases and additional counters on Vial. Mutavault + Incinerator is cute though, as a Mutavault can probably kill a Goyf on it's own with the help of Incinerator. But I won't drop the Ports, I love them too much. Their second ability has won me so many games, it's not even funny, although I'm not sure all those games can be attributed to Port. They did make winning a lot easier though.

Relic seems kind of hit or miss, I don't know. It's either complete garbage or it wins you the game. It lacks synergy with Warchief, Piledriver, Ringleader, Incinerator and Vial like Fanatic has. I personally think Fanatic is pretty good, but if you are expecting to play Threshold every round than by all means just play Relic but I see no point in playing Mono Red in that kind of metagame. I am very happy with the Relics in the sideboard, and they come in a lot of the time and usually I board Fanatics out for Relic so I can understand your decision. You shouldn't disrespect Fanatic as it does a lot more than just remove Bridges and kill Confidant, it screws up the combat step and sometimes even trades 2 for 1. Additionally, Fanatic is awesome against our arch enemy Jitte as you can chump and then sac it before dmg is on the stack, giving you more time to find an out. Other times they are just the last points of damage you lack.
I could see taking out one Fanatic for the second Stingscourger though. By the way, Fanatic and Incinerator do not have anti synergy, you cycle Incinerator then sac Fanatic, be enough to kill a Goyf that is 3/4 (instant, land, creature), probably the most common size in the first few turns.

I've been wanting to say this for a long time now, but I strongly feel that Goblins has a shot against combo. Particulary against TES, Waste and Port just screw up their mana especially if you get a Chalice down. I think you can expect to win 1 game every match by mana disruption and a great draw and you just hope they mulligan into oblivion or fizzle one of the other 2 games. Sure, I'm not pretending we have a favorable matchup but it's not unwinnable by any means. Another thing we got going is that combo players will underestimate Goblins and just go on auto pilot. I've seen tons of combo players screw up because they thought they had a bye anyway.

Goblin King is not necessary. It sucks balls actually. Nobody plays Plague and your creatures will still die to double Plague unless you have 2. You can beat one Plague on the back of Chief/Piley.

I can see Magus having some merits but by the time we reach three mana and can resolve a 3CC spell and our opponent is not ahead by a ton, Goblins can drag it to the long game and bury our opponent under card advantage anyway. Admittedly, Magus locks up the games you were ahead, but he doesn't help much when you are behind on board position. He is great against Landstill and ITF though, definately. He seems good against TA and UGW Thresh but I'm not sure he comes down early enough, if you even manage to resolve it at all, to matter. Perhaps you can expand on this choice?

GreenOne
01-07-2009, 09:22 AM
Goblin King is not necessary. It sucks balls actually. Nobody plays Plague and your creatures will still die to double Plague unless you have 2. You can beat one Plague on the back of Chief/Piley.

I play Goons as plague solution. They work great and you also board them in the Thresh matchup.
Here's my sb:
3 Goon
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic
1 Tinkerer
3 Price of Progress

MonoRed has actually other solutions to plague which are better than King: Price of Progress, Patron of the Akki, Fledgling Dragon, Door of destinies.

ScatmanX
01-07-2009, 10:03 AM
I never intented to say to use Null Rod over CotV. I think they should be used in conjunction. CotV gives you enough time to set Null Rod up.ANT, for instance, can easily resolve Ad Nausea, bounce something, then win. But 2 bounce spells is dificult for them. I just don't know if that is our best anweser. But again: CotV is a must!

GreenOne: I have played Goon also, before I could afford changing to Rb version. I realize that the Rb version does not have an anweser to Plague either, so I just choose to ignore, and try to race them.

Tacosnape
01-07-2009, 10:19 AM
Red can also just use Rishadan Port as a solution to Engineered Plague. Or just ignore Plague as little as it's being run these days. Heck, Goblins builds were getting away with ignoring it back in the heyday of Plaguemania. Certainly just ignoring the card is a much more viable strategy now that a lot of decks with black aren't even packing Plagues, and are packing less than four when they do?

But like, seriously? Is anything in DTB running a full set of Plagues? Is anything but a few 4C Landstill builds running Plagues at all?

Media314r8
01-07-2009, 10:25 AM
I realize that the Rb version does not have an anweser to Plague either, so I just choose to ignore, and try to race them.

I think mad auntie is actually quite playable as a semi-solution to plague, and I run squads main which can remove any further plagues from the deck (and conveniently all three copies of Tendrils the now burning wish-less ANT decks run.)

@ relic being 'hit or miss':
See the merfolk thread for further discussion, but it is never 'miss' save for lowering the number of goblins in the deck for ringleader flips. (~2.3 -> ~2.1 goblins per 'leader) It cantrips if it is ever dead, and it harms the following decks:

+anything playing goyf, mono red goblins biggest problem
+anything playing tombstalker
+loam
+rock decks
+ichorid
+igg loop if you've done enough damage to ANT early game
+stacks decks
+survival deck
+(?reanimator?)
+other rogue decks or any decks reliant on the graveyard

Did I mention it cantrips and solves your biggest, most common problem?

EDIT: I am only advocating MD relics in mono red and RG builds. IMO, for builds with black, warren wierding is a superior choice to solve problem threats, (read- too large for incinerator to handle- goyf, TS, terravore, dreadnaught, ect) and can be tutored/ringleader'ed. (and wort'ed, if you play her) I am not saying NOT to run relics MB in black builds, just that it is necessary to have some way to deal with the aforementioned creatures in lists without black. I would probably run leylines and 0-2 relics SB in a black build, depending on the meta. (more relics if thresh/TA is more prevelant, more leylines if loam/ichorid is more prevalent.)

ScatmanX
01-07-2009, 10:49 AM
I too play Mad Auntie (1 MD), but the deal is, 2 Plagues are lethal the same way. Maybe with black, Earwigs might be a very good option. I'm looking foward playing 2 Earwigs also, but only have one so, let's see...

As for relic, after reading Media314r8 arguments, has enyone ever tryed 2-3 Relics maindeck? It does seems like a good idea...

Media314r8
01-07-2009, 11:47 AM
I too play Mad Auntie (1 MD), but the deal is, 2 Plagues are lethal the same way.

I've actually won in a tournament against a Ugb thresh deck packing a set of plagues in the board. (G1 and G3) Game three he hits turn three, turn four plagues, and I land a wort, who recurs my edicts to wipe his board. I then fear/prowl out a squad to take the last two plagues from his deck and chump his goyfs with squads/ edict myself when he doesn't attack to clear the tombstalkers (only flyers) out of his deck. Squad is the god-damns, I put three in my main when they were first printed, (dropped down to 1 'driver, I know, I know. The Rb goblins is a deck about inevitibility, not reckless aggression in the age of goyf) and I've never looked back. They really have been THAT GOOD. Turn one lackey -> warchief/forgtosser (I run a 3/2 split) and prowl squad is IMO better than lackey into SGC. Knowing the contents of your opponent's deck (and thus how to board as well as how they will likely board) plus taking about 1/4 of their win conditions/deeds/plagues/scary stuff is invaluable. Singlehandedly winning vs ANT with just one prowl is gravy, and squad has a body big enough to trade with goyf, and is approx the size of a mid-game driver when attacking. (while being smother and snuff out proof)

Mantis
01-08-2009, 07:43 AM
I've actually won in a tournament against a Ugb thresh deck packing a set of plagues in the board. (G1 and G3) Game three he hits turn three, turn four plagues, and I land a wort, who recurs my edicts to wipe his board. I then fear/prowl out a squad to take the last two plagues from his deck and chump his goyfs with squads/ edict myself when he doesn't attack to clear the tombstalkers (only flyers) out of his deck. Squad is the god-damns, I put three in my main when they were first printed, (dropped down to 1 'driver, I know, I know. The Rb goblins is a deck about inevitibility, not reckless aggression in the age of goyf) and I've never looked back. They really have been THAT GOOD. Turn one lackey -> warchief/forgtosser (I run a 3/2 split) and prowl squad is IMO better than lackey into SGC. Knowing the contents of your opponent's deck (and thus how to board as well as how they will likely board) plus taking about 1/4 of their win conditions/deeds/plagues/scary stuff is invaluable. Singlehandedly winning vs ANT with just one prowl is gravy, and squad has a body big enough to trade with goyf, and is approx the size of a mid-game driver when attacking. (while being smother and snuff out proof)
Goblin Piledriver is pretty awesome allowing to win out of nowhere. Pro blue is also a very good ability, I like them. They allow you to sometimes just win very quickly and pull wins out of nowhere.

That said, I was under the impression that most combo players run TES but a quick look on deckcheck revealed that most play Fetchland ANT instead. So that probably means I will be going back to RB or RBG actually. To clarify, TES plays Burning Wish so Earwig Squad is useless against them, ANT plays 2 or 3 copies of Tendrills so Earwig Squad spells GG.

However, I should give your list a whirl before dismissing it as you do make solid points for your decisions. It's very hard to judge without having played both decks, so if you could PM me your list I would be grateful.
-Mantis.

GoldenCid
01-08-2009, 08:49 AM
I like the idea of cutting just 1 and no more piledriver in favor of an earwing squad if we are playing a RB version. I think that the power of squad allows us deal better with the lack of green in our deck.

Ectoplasm
01-08-2009, 01:15 PM
I really, really love the squad, it's a complete house most of the time. However, getting rid of so many piledrivers is just nuts, IMO.
Not alot to say besides that piledrivers often come down unexpectedly for just 1 red mana and swing for 9 or something the same turn, and if you can drop down an unexpected pair of them you're just a ninja.

Tacosnape
01-08-2009, 01:19 PM
I really, really love the squad, it's a complete house most of the time. However, getting rid of so many piledrivers is just nuts, IMO.
Not alot to say besides that piledrivers often come down unexpectedly for just 1 red mana and swing for 9 or something the same turn, and if you can drop down an unexpected pair of them you're just a ninja.

A Goblin Ninja, no less. Ah, MajorMUD, how I miss you so.

I've been running Squad in the sideboard. There's a lot of matchups where munching on your opponent's deck really just isn't all that relevant, but some where it completely is.

Ectoplasm
01-08-2009, 01:58 PM
I run a singleton in the sideboard as well, and none main. A card which isn't relevant in alot of situations (being unable to prowl it, for instance) just doesn't deserve a maindeck spot.

It's still great though.

ccook92mtg
01-08-2009, 08:58 PM
I play rbg goblins and was wondering why don't people play chrome mox and mox diamond in the deck to make it faster?

Dan Turner
01-08-2009, 09:58 PM
space limitations what would you remove to add them? you still need the land or your not making it faster.

ccook92mtg
01-08-2009, 10:01 PM
what about mogg fanatics? I really only get some use out of them.

cabrala7x
01-09-2009, 09:03 AM
Can someone post me a monored list for me to start playing this deck? thanks.

ScatmanX
01-09-2009, 09:49 AM
cabrala7x,

can you please read the second post on the 98th page of his thread first?
thanks.

Media314r8
01-09-2009, 12:18 PM
I play rbg goblins and was wondering why don't people play chrome mox and mox diamond in the deck to make it faster?

Because that would involve the following downsides (for chrome):
+if you begin with chrome mox in hand, you begin with effectivly six cards, while being a turn ahead.
+chrome mox is a dead draw past turn 3ish, whereas in traditional goblins, fanatic is the least relevant spell, and it still swings, and does 1+ damage to your opponent, as well as making driver bigger.
+if you still expect to hit land drops until turn five, you're going to be running a manabase something like 21 lands, 4 chrome mox. This means your ringleaders lose some of their power
+you are hurt much, MUCH more by deed, as they will likely kill 1-2 mana sources as well as your vials/dudes.
+Your vials (and mana denial) become less relevant, as you're effectivly two turns faster with mana than your vial is accumulating counters - you will want to CAST your threats as soon as possible to benefit from the tempo boost. I would -wince- almost suggest dropping vial if you're playing mox, as it would put right the goblin/card ratio, and they are not very complimentary.

While the upsides would be:
+Casting a turn one (on the draw) daze-proof lackey/vial (not especially relevant for lackey, as if your opponent is on the play, they will likely be landing a blocker/removing lackey turn two.
+Casting (though less effective) ringleader earlier, however, he is less likely to hit goblins, (lower number of non mana cards in the deck) and you really need to hit 2+ goblins off him to make up for the card disadvantage of the imprint.
+(???) possible turn one chalice vs solidarity/permanent waves???
+Slightly faster clock against combo, but you still probably need to drop a chalice or prowl a squad to win this one.

Mox diamond would mean running possibly 24-26 lands and 4 mox, making ringleader even worse, but you would not be sacrificing a spell to play the mox, and would probably continue to hit land drops despite pitching a land, as the count would have to be higher. Diamond would also allow you to play magus of the moon SB without worry of cutting off your G/B sources. Crucible/waste lock in goblins?!?! Goblin stacks?!?! (doesnt work too well, I've tried) Diamond seems to take the deck in the wrong direction, away from aggro/disruption and more towards disruption/prision/random lackey wins

TLDR: The best part of playing moxen in legacy is dropping a turn one chalice for one, something that goblins generally doesn't want to do. The card disadvantage and diluting of the goblin/card ration IMO doesn't make up for the tempo boost.

Ectoplasm
01-09-2009, 01:34 PM
what about mogg fanatics? I really only get some use out of them.

Fanatic is simply put, one of the best cards ever printed, one of the best 1-drops ever printed (even though your deck has 12 incredible 1-drops), it can do dozens of things. First of all it can execute players, it can hit shit like dark confidant or random turn 1 blockers allowing your lackey to get through, it can untap your sharpshooter and make for some crazy shenanigans, clearing a board thanks to the extra 2 damage, it can chump guys that have umezawa's jitte on them and then sac before combatdamage to prevent the jitte from accumulating counters and much, much more.

Running less than 4 would be downgrading your deck.

Mantis
01-09-2009, 02:33 PM
I just had the most crazy idea for Goblins, it´s either terrible or the holy grail for this deck. I am thinking about running RW Goblins with 2 or 3 Oblivion Ring and 1 or 2 Jotun Grunt in the maindeck. Grunt an O Ring both solve the Goyf problem and Jotun Grunt fits the Vial curve very good as well. Oblivion Ring will solve all troublesome permanents such as Moat, Humility, Propaganda, Back to Basics, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Goyf, Seismic Assault etc. In the sideboard we could play some Orim´s Chants to stop ANT from going apeshit, Lightning Helix and STP could be other options for the deck.

Media314r8
01-09-2009, 02:42 PM
Goblin sledder is simply put, one of the best cards ever printed, one of the best 1-drops ever printed (even though your deck has 12 incredible 1-drops), it can do dozens of things. First of all it can push damage through to players buy saccing your blocked guys to make your unblocked guys bigger, it save lackey from shit like lava dart and goblin fanatic, it can pump and thus save guys in combat after putting damage on the stack, it can untap your sharpshooter and make for some crazy shenanigans, it can make any goblins chump guys that have umezawa's jitte on them and then sac before combat damage to prevent the jitte from accumulating counters and much, much more.

Running less than 4 would be downgrading your deck.

Mogg raider is simply put, one of the best cards ever printed, one of the best 1-drops ever printed (even though your deck has 12 incredible 1-drops), it can do dozens of things. First of all it can push damage through to players buy saccing your blocked guys to make your unblocked guys bigger, it save lackey from shit like lava dart and goblin fanatic, it can pump and thus save guys in combat after putting damage on the stack, it can untap your sharpshooter and make for some crazy shenanigans, it can make any goblins chump guys that have umezawa's jitte on them and then sac before combat damage to prevent the jitte from accumulating counters and much, much more. It was even misprinted in the beatdown box set at a mana cost of RR, but it actually only costs R, which could make for sick plays when your opponent uses discard, and then runs out a chalice of the void with 2 counters on it assuming it will keep you from playing your mogg raider... not today buddy, we go by the oracle text!

Running less than 4 would be downgrading your deck.

Skirk Prospector is simply put, one of the best cards ever printed, one of the best 1-drops ever printed (even though your deck has 12 incredible 1-drops), it can do dozens of things. First of all it can push damage through to players buy attacking and not being blocked, it can sac itself and other goblins to net R for each goblin sacced which allows you to pay other spells with colorless or red mana in their casting costs, it combos with fecundity, mogg war marshal, and patriarch's bidding, it can untap your sharpshooter and make for some crazy shenanigans, it can make any goblins chump guys that have umezawa's jitte on them and then sac before combat damage to prevent the jitte from accumulating counters and much, much more.

Running less than 4 would be downgrading your deck.

/silliness

Fanatic has obviously lost power over the years, as juicy targets like mother of runes, savannah lions, lavamancers, ect have been replaced with goyfs, tombstalkers, and dreadnaughts. The threats in today's meta are just plain BIGGER. Truth be told, the best way to ensure lackey connects is warren wierding, for the same reason gempalm is now being run in the Rb(g) builds as a tutorable 1-of, as he can really only kill utility guys before the late game. As much as I love the little guy, with piledriver, PILEDRIVER being discussed as a possible 3-of, running 4 of fanatic is by no means a 'downgrade' - it's adapting to the changing metagame.

Media314r8
01-09-2009, 02:57 PM
I just had the most crazy idea for Goblins, it´s either terrible or the holy grail for this deck. I am thinking about running RW Goblins with 2 or 3 Oblivion Ring and 1 or 2 Jotun Grunt in the maindeck. Grunt an O Ring both solve the Goyf problem and Jotun Grunt fits the Vial curve very good as well. Oblivion Ring will solve all troublesome permanents such as Moat, Humility, Propaganda, Back to Basics, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Goyf, Seismic Assault etc. In the sideboard we could play some Orim´s Chants to stop ANT from going apeshit, Lightning Helix and STP could be other options for the deck.


I just had the most crazy idea for Goblins, it´s either terrible or the holy grail for this deck. I am thinking about running RW Goblins with 2 or 3 Oblivion Ring and 1 or 2 Jotun Grunt in the maindeck. Grunt an O Ring both solve the Goyf problem and Jotun Grunt fits the Vial curve very good as well. Oblivion Ring will solve all troublesome permanents such as Moat, Humility, Propaganda, Back to Basics, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Goyf, Seismic Assault etc. In the sideboard we could play some Orim´s Chants to stop ANT from going apeshit, Lightning Helix and STP could be other options for the deck.

Beware danger of cool things. I tried RW goblins years, YEARS ago, back when affinity was a DTW/DTB. It was really, really horrible. It looked like most lists, but with 4 swords in the main in place of the stingscourger/incinerator/sharpshooter slots. In the side I packed serenity and pyrokenisis. It's not worth it to have cards that are not goblins in the deck other than aether vial and whatever you bring in from the board to win difficult MUs. (chalice, grave-hate, ect)

Relic, as discussed earlier, solves most all of these problems and cantrips, so while it still hurts ringleader, it also cycles for 2 when not needed, as opposed to swords/O ring which can be dead in certain MUs and also hurt ringleader. Grunt is a firm NO, and if you just want to beat the piss out of goyf, run goblin goon. Serenity could still be a decent SB card, but green is a better MD splash as tin street is the nuts right now, and grip will actually resolve against decks packing moat. I am weary of anyone who suggests stifle/chant effects against ANT, as if you don't run any counters, they will probably just use discard to snatch the spell out of your hand. Chalice works here as it can be set for 0 turn one, and ANT must search/mystical for bounce before they can try to go off. (barring something like 3x rit -> igg -> infernal -> win ZOMG!) Black offers MD wierding, which kills all the troublesome creatures you spoke of, and can be tutored/ringleadered/recurred, (tribal sorcery-goblin) while also offering PROACTIVE combo hate SB in discard/squad. IMO reactive hate only helps against ANT if you have counters to back it up.

PS: I wouldn't advise Crib Swap either, i shat my pants when it was spoiled crying "ZOMG, tutorable swords!" Well twenty minutes of playtesting put that one to rest. Too slow, and giving your opponent a 1/1 blocker was hardly going to help lackey/little guys get there.

Mantis
01-09-2009, 02:57 PM
I run Fanatics not because they are so amazing, but more as a support card. The Jitte trick, Bridge removal and Bob or Lackey killing is not the main reason I run it, that is just added bonus. The reason I run it is because I want to have something to do in the early game. It fits the Vial curve and it's good with Piledriver. Behind Vial and Lackey this is the best 1 drop available for Goblins, Relic is a possible replacement and Skirk Prospector could be good if you want to run 4 Earwig Squad in meta full of combo.

I don't know O Ring looks pretty good though, it could potentialy solve a ton of problems. I might be pushing it with Jotun Grunt.

Onphyre
01-09-2009, 04:17 PM
I have been out of the loop of magic for about a year now and I am getting back into it. Here is my R/g Vial Goblins deck as it was at the begining of 2008:

Land (23):
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
6 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Artifacts (4):
4 AEther Vial

Creatures (33):
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tin Street Hooligan


Sideboard (15):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt

I have tinkered with many builds over the years, including a mono-R version. I had cards such as Goblin King (for plague) and Goblin Sharpshooter in the SB, along with 2 Goblin Tinkerer and 2 Jitte main (Even a Kiki at one point). I also had REB instead of grip, and Pyrostatic Pillar instead of Crypt in the SB. I even had more of a Sligh feel to the deck at one point with Lightning Bolt and Barbarian Ring included in the MD/SB among some others, but there was not as much synergey. I also found that R/g was a little more versitle in the metagame at the time.

I was hoping for some advice on either the MD or SB based on the current metagame (which based on what I have seen seems to be very threshold heavy). I am wanting to still stick to R/g since I do not want to throw more money into switching colors, so please keep your suggestions based on only R/g Goblins (and I know I should probably have another Tiaga, but for now I don't want to go out and buy 1, and 2 seems to work just fine). Should I still have TS Hooligan MD? 4 Gempalm, 4 Piledriver, and 4 Fanatic still good? Any cards from new sets I should add? What about my SB...Crypt still worth some slots? Chalice and Pyro still the best choices based on what usually gives Goblins trouble? Or is there something better out there from new sets (or even old sets that is now better based on the metagame?

Thanks for any help in advance.

GreenOne
01-09-2009, 05:36 PM
I'd play your exact list, with just -1 Chalice -3 Tormod +4 Relic of Progenitus. It really helps against Tarmogoyf and it's better against tombstalker/mongoose. It also cantrips.

Or if you want a new twist, try Food Chain Goblins (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12248)

Ectoplasm
01-09-2009, 05:51 PM
/silliness

Blabla, thanks for reading my post I guess, and thanks for completely trivializing it. Althought it was pretty childish :rolleyes:

I could go and write witty oneliners as well if you'd like that, even though I'm sure most people wouldn't, so I'll just try and spout opinions and maybe, perhaps even try and educate people on things like the awesomeness of mogg fanatic by opening their eyes to many things they could do with them without maybe even knowing?

I don't know, it sounds like a good way to make for a quality thread about vial goblins, don't you agree?

Edit: @OnPhyre: Relic of Progenitus is pretty much the new must-have in any goblin sideboard :)

Tacosnape
01-10-2009, 10:46 AM
I'd play your exact list, with just -1 Chalice -3 Tormod +4 Relic of Progenitus. It really helps against Tarmogoyf and it's better against tombstalker/mongoose. It also cantrips.

This. I agree. Relic is the only thing that makes R/G still pretty close to on par with R/B. It narrowed the gap tremendously by giving the deck a neat out to Tarmogoyf. And the cantripping thing is sweet as hell.

Your list is still very solid and hasn't really changed much based on the metagame (I'd include a third Taiga, but that gets into personal nitpicking and has absolutely nothing to do with the metagame changing.)

Also, if it were me, and I wasn't afraid of a lot of Storm combo (And if you are, don't play Goblins), I'd axe Chalice altogether in that list for Tin-Street Hooligan #3/#4 and a random singleton, either like a Sharpshooter, or possibly a Gaea's Blessing if you expect Painter combo. Having four Tin-Streets is very very important if you don't have Weirding, as not only will Tinny save you against Faerie/Dragon Stompy, Affinity, Stax, etc, he's also crucial for giving you the means to pick off Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, who are much more a part of the metagame now than a year ago.

GUnit
01-12-2009, 12:34 AM
I am not a goblin player. All of my experience playing the deck is 2+ years ago, testing with my friend's deck. I'm trying to advise a friend on what to bring to Chicago. He doesn't own legacy cards outside of goblins, so he's definitely going to be bring some form of the deck.

My question is:
Given that I'm expecting their to be a strong showing of TES / ANT at the tournament, should he play a RB with squads main and chalices in the side, or is the margin that you gain by doing so not worth the impact to your other matchups? I'm thinking he'll either play that, or play a monored build with maindeck relics. But, again, I'm no expert.

Eldariel
01-12-2009, 03:09 AM
Given the amount of Stifle/Waste decks roaming the meta nowadays along with the relative lack of Engineered Plagues, I think Mono-Red Goblins could suddenly be a strong choice again. It's pretty damn strong against any form of land disruption deck (Team America, Dreadstill, Thrash, et cetera) and still maintains a solid game against all the control in the meta (modern Landstill-builds really seem to have similar vulnerabilities to Waste/Port Goblins as the 2005-builds).

Giving up Weirdings and Tin Street sucks, but in exchange, you'll get pretty consistently good matches against the primary threats in the metagame and greatly reduced "random manascrew loss" margin. Oh, and less mulligans. I threw together something resembling a Goblins-list, heavily metagamed to beat the tier 1 decks (outside ANT of course, where your plan still is to hope they keep shit and get manascrewed by Wastes/Ports or are knocked too low to go off).


// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
15 [4E] Mountain (3)
2 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus


I feel Stingscourger is fairly awesome, buying you time to start dropping your big guys against Tarmogoyfs (bounce one, block the second, that's a turn or two extra, plenty to drop Matrons, Ringleaders and SGCs; also offensively useful with Lackey, but that's fairly obvious). The little guy has gotten a crapton better with the printing of Tombstalker and the errata of Dreadnought, both of which are fairly non-trivial to replay. Of course, the downside is that the CiPT is Stifleable, but can't have everything I suppose. Besides, your Wastes and Ports should be able to restrict their mana the turn after. Tinkerer is around to break Dreads, Vials, Jittes, Needles and everything else ever, 'cause mono-red can't play Tin Street (and Tinkerer is vialable, I guess. Yay?). Fanatic got omitted since outside the mirror and Ichorid, it just looks pretty bad against the meta, at least until someone rips out Survival Elves or something.

Mutavaults probably shouldn't be there, but I wanted to toss enough lands in to withstand a Wasteland and a Sinkhole or two (while the Vials/Lackeys got Forced/Snuff Outted/Dazed/whatever'd) and Dust Bowl, the only rational complement to the LD suite, is just too slow without acceleration while extra Mountains felt redundant. The experience has been surprisingly positive thus far with the increase in the Goblin count for Incin and just the ability to get an extra attacker to go with the Pile that snuck through, and the easy-to-make landdrops for SGCs helping out little here and there (and the random dude to finish with after Your Generic Sweeper #4).

The sideboard was just ripped off the top of my head, so it's pretty bad, but between chalice, mana denial and REBs to hit BS, Ponder and crap (so you can manascrew them for real), you've got a semblance of a chance vs. ANT, and Relics should be fairly obvious. No Plague-hate there, since again, just not expecting to see any. And if one does, I guess there's always the "Waste, Port, Port, why aren't you casting spells?"-mode.


I guess the main question I'm trying to bring up is whether the metagame could warrant reintroduction of mono-red.

Nessaja
01-12-2009, 06:09 AM
I played against that list weeks ago, guess you posted it after all. Very strong list, both disruptive and strong on aggro. I personally found it one of the stronger/consistent Goblins lists I played against but I immediatly realized that that is very dependand on the deck you play.

Still, removal for dreadnoughts/tombstalkers and targetted removal for goyfs together with a strong manabase is a good gameplan.

Major weakness would be enchantment hate, and the biggest thing there would be landstill with humilities/moat, but that's what the mana disruption is for.

Do you feel like Mutavaults are beneficial over the extra incinerator/sgc/sting?

Tacosnape
01-12-2009, 08:17 PM
I am not a goblin player. All of my experience playing the deck is 2+ years ago, testing with my friend's deck. I'm trying to advise a friend on what to bring to Chicago. He doesn't own legacy cards outside of goblins, so he's definitely going to be bring some form of the deck.

My question is:
Given that I'm expecting their to be a strong showing of TES / ANT at the tournament, should he play a RB with squads main and chalices in the side, or is the margin that you gain by doing so not worth the impact to your other matchups? I'm thinking he'll either play that, or play a monored build with maindeck relics. But, again, I'm no expert.

This is a very interesting question, as it begs the logistic of "What if Goblins is the only deck you can play?" and eliminates the idea of "Just don't play Goblins."

Personally, I'd go to one extreme or the other. I'd either accept I was going to lose to TES, or overload to beat it and make games 2 and 3 ridiculously in your favor. I don't think Squad main and Chalice sideboard get you anywhere close to even for the match with modern Storm Combo. Therefore I'd either add a couple more weapons (Pick from Duress/Null Rod/Thoughtseize/Therapy/Whatever Else), or I'd not run Squad or Chalice without a solid reason to run them other than Storm Combo (You might run Chalice, for example, if you anticipated facing nothing but Threshold/Storm Combo/Sligh all day, but Storm alone isn't enough reason to run it unless you're overloading against it.)

My gut feeling is that Chalice will be good at the event, and you'll see a ton of decks that are straight forward, streamlined aggression, consistent and heavy on the 1CC slot. So while I don't usually recommend Chalice, I might if you were playing Goblins in this situation.

ScatmanX
01-13-2009, 09:04 AM
I agree mostly with Taco.
I think CotV is a good SB card overall, beeing good in a number of MUs.

My advice, would be, to play atleast the Rb version, with discard SB, and posibally (I think I would do this), run 3 Earwig Squads MD, along with a number betwen 5-7 Warchief-Frogtosser, to increase the chance of Prowling Earwig turn 2. Don't know if it is the best option. You can also, instead, dedicate 10-12 SB cards again'st combo, and pratically give up G1.

In my experience agains't combo, the games are almost the same: he wins G1, there's a chance I win G2 on the play, and he wins G3...=/

But nevertheless, good luck with the championship!:wink:

Mantis
01-13-2009, 11:24 AM
I found the matchup percentage against combo to be about 65 - 35. They win 2 matches, you win 1. That said, I play 3 Relic and 1 Earwig Squad maindeck. Postboard I have 2 Therapy, 4 Relic, 1 Squad and 4 Chalice + 4 Port and Waste. My gameplan against ANT (FT Tendrills) is to set up Squad ASAP. Against TES, I play down Lackey or Vial and then start disrupting their manabase. Hopefully I can put them on low enough life to stop Ad Naseum and then use Relic to cut them off from Ill Gotten Gains.

The big question for me is: mono red or RBG. After seeing Eldariels list I'm really excited about mono red once again. I am giving RBG the benefit of the doubt for know, but I fully realize this can be subjective. The games that are won due to KroGrip and Earwig Squad are a lot more memorable than the games I lost due to Stifles and Wastes on my lands. This has got me thinking for the past few days and I just can't figure it out. I have never been as undecided about anything in Magic as right now. Seriously, I barely slept last night and probably asked my GF what I should do in my sleep lol. I would love to know the opions of you guys and especially the Goblin veterans like Tacosnape, Ectoplasm, kicks_422, nickrit2000, scatmanx, Media, GreenOne etc. (hope I'm not forgetting anyone here).

Shriekmaw
01-13-2009, 12:07 PM
I've played around with a lot of different versions of goblins recently, hoping to tweak the deck before the trials start for the GP. I have discussed the 3 different versions belowed which I playtested and my feelings about each one.

The RBG list is probably my current favorite b/c of all the answers it has access to by playing 2 splashes for main deck and sideboard. The benefits of the deck is having access to tin street and krosan grip in the board. I always felt that you have to find a way with dealing with enigneered plague. The 3 color version also gives you access to engineered explosives in the board which is very nice. The disadvantages is the mana base, but I believe the rewards that the 3 colors is worth the risk.

The R/b list has a very solid mana base, but I felt the sideboard answers to plague just isn't that good. In regards to the GP, you have to have a reliable way to deal with plague, since they will be all over the place. Black has earwig squad and drualu's crusade. Those are not reliable answers for myself, but the version is very strong all depending on the meta game your expecting.

The mono red list is the most interesting that I've played with so far because I felt it could be very strong. In this version I've played anywhere from 2-3 goblin kings main deck for the raw power of just winning. The mana base is strong with 4 wastes and 4 ports with 6 fetches in the deck. I do still believe in fetches b/c shuffling your deck has always been a positive experience for myself.

The sideboard would have a number of gaunlet of mights to help better fight through plagues and just for some more raw power in certain matchups. No one would see this card coming and lets you generate a ton of mana the next turn after it hits play. I would probably still play the 1 sharpshooter in the board, but would definitely have at least one additional one in the board. I would probably include combo hate with some combination of pillar/chalice in the board.

I'm still playing around with the mono-red version, so when I get some results and the build I settle on, I'll post it.

Let me know your guys thoughts about the different versions and what might be best in the metagame today.

GreenOne
01-13-2009, 12:27 PM
I'd stick with monored right now, due to the huge amount of Land Disruption people is playing nowadays.

Also, going monored you have a reason to run maindeck Relic, which is just huge against a good number of matchups.

Decks to beat right now:
DreadStill
Goblins
Landstill
AggroLoam
Team America
Rock
ANT
UGr Thrash
UGb Thresh
UGw Thresh

In bold the decks that are packing LD suites and underlined decks that are using their graveyard somehow.

3 color versions are actually more powerful, cause they let you deal with Enchantments/Bigger Creatures/whatever.

So you have to carefully look at your metagame, each version has pros and cons.
Those are the reasons to run MonoRed:
- You can play 4 ports, punishing control decks with shaky manabases and often decks that are making their manabase shake just to play LD suites (like UGr Thresh or Team America).
- You have maindeck Grave Hate. This could be huge if your meta features Goyfs, Tombstalkers, Loam, Witnesses, Ichorid, IGG, etc in good numbers.
- Your meta has many "stifles+daze+waste" decks, for obvious reasons.
- There are a good number of Goblin decks. Weirding sucks hard against them.
- You can run Blood Moon and still can play 100% of your cards.

Those are the reasons to run 3 colors:
- You have a better shot against aggro-control decks, cause Weirding is good against goyf, tombstalker and dreadnough. It's also a goblin, so you can tutor and ringleader it.
- You have ways to deal with problematic enchantments with Krosan Grip, without being prone to suboptimal stuff like Anarchy, Shattering Spree.
- You actually just run the best cards the deck can run.


EDIT:


The mono red list is the most interesting that I've played with so far because I felt it could be very strong. In this version I've played anywhere from 2-3 goblin kings main deck for the raw power of just winning. The mana base is strong with 4 wastes and 4 ports with 6 fetches in the deck. I do still believe in fetches b/c shuffling your deck has always been a positive experience for myself.

I'd NEVER play monored with Fetchlands in it. Stifle is one of the reasons you're just running monored. Goblin king is also a quite strange choice, unless your meta is filled with plague and/or red decks. I'll just ignore the plague problem or play multiple Goons against it (they're also good against aggrocontrol/pyroclasm)

Here's my list right now:
// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
(1 [LE] Goblin Goon)
1 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

// Sideboard
(SB: 3 [LE] Goblin Goon)
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
(SB: 3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon)
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void

In () the slots I'm still undecided.

Eldariel
01-13-2009, 01:08 PM
I feel with the amount of Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts around, you just can't afford any less than 3 Stingscourgers and I definitely find Stingscourger is better than Fanatic (just look at the decks you listed; Fanatic has relevant targets in the mirror and maybe vs. The Rock, while being mostly reduced to chump/Jitte-blocking duty vs. the rest, being only excellent against Ichorid which wasn't even listed). I'd really look into playing 4 even.

Also, I agree with GreenOne regarding fetches; no matter how much you like shuffling your library and slightly better first Ringleader, with the amount of Stifles flying around, there's just no excuse for playing Fetches if you don't have a big time reason (such as a splash colour, Grim Lavamancer or Brainstorm).

Finally, Goblin King looks weird, especially with the metagame leaning towards blue nowadays. It was playable at one point when mountains dominated the metagames, but just the boost effect alone isn't enough to play it over any other Goblin, and if you play Stingscourgers, you frankly shouldn't need it. If I wanted a boost Goblin, I'd play Goblin Pyromancer to that effect for those one-turn wins. Also, in mono-red, I still find Patron of the Akki (oldschool!) to be the best Plague-answer, simply because it's proactive and huge and still uses your team and gives opponent less time to answer it (and nobody sees it coming). Also, Plagues don't seem to be played in numbers. Heck, quick search through Deckcheck shows a grand total of two Plagues in Top 8s over the last 6 months. And we still have the mana denial plan vs. them.

ScatmanX
01-13-2009, 01:17 PM
To be honest, when people started talking about going back to MonoR, I was confused. The evolution of the deck, per say, would be a 2 or more colors deck, because then we have acess to more answers. But then I started to think deeper in to it. Goblin is, in my opinion, the best agroo deck there is. But from some time to now, they've lost a big deal of their power. (we are no DTW for Crist sake!) That happened because of 1- Decks running 2cc dudes that are huge (Goyf, Stalker, Nought...) and 2- The rise of combo (you may read creation of Ad Nausea). But then again, in the last Set, we got Relic of Progenitous. That is the single most versatile card agains't our biggest problems. We put black in the deck to have acess to Warrens Weirding's, but relic solve the big dudes issue way better. Relic is also not dead in the mirror, once it cantrips, and can even shut down an oponent anoying Wort. GreenOne listed well where it is good, and Taco has defended it a lot in the last few pages. They're right.

Well, with all that said, I should tell you that I'm currently running Rb. The mana haven't been an issue so far, so what the hell. If I realize I'm loosing more games because of the splash than winning, I'll change to MonoR again, but that isn't happening yet.
About Rgb, I don't have experience (no $ for taigas...=/).

Mantis, if you want to know wich is the best to play in a certain tournament, I would say to pick the one you're most familiarized with. I made so many mistakes in the first times I played Rb, it was ridiculous. But for me, up until now, the b splash has worth it.
As a final thought: I can't say wich version is THE best. guess no one can actually.but that's the beauty of the thing, isn't it?



On MonoRed again, analising GreenOne's list, guess I'd do only some little changes. Gempalm, as your only removal, should be upped (I've seen that Stingscourer, but stil... and they should be upped also). And I really like a 3rd Relic main, because... well, it's awesome. Also, I would really like to see a Sharpshooter MD, cause we have no splash godammit, so we have to rape other goblins, even G1. Me don't like no artifact hate, so 1 Tinkerer is also neat (saw it in the SB, so ok). Goons are nice agains't plague, that card is a matter of taste (I used to run Goblin Caves. It was fun). Guess that 23 lands for only 2 Siege-Gangs are too much. I would A: up the number os Gang-Bangs or B: cut a land. No Fetchs=good. SB could have 1 Pyromancer or 1 King, to rape mirror. (pyromancer is also neat agins't Empty the Warrens.)

Tacosnape
01-14-2009, 08:37 AM
I'm still running RB, for what it's worth, though I think Mono-Red and R/G both got playable in the world of Relic of Progenitus. RBG never felt quite comfortable to me, and I absolutely hated not randomly winning games from the tiny bit of game-slowing action I got with Rishadan Port.

I'm of the opinion that Black is worth it almost exclusively for Warren Weirding still. I've never been a big fan of Wort, I could still go either way on Earwig Squad, and anything else black I'm not a huge fan of either.

That said, of all cards in the universe, I've actually been getting significant mileage out of Duress in my sideboard. I picked it over Thoughtseize due to the two life being relevant from time to time, especially against random things like Burn, and because any time I ever board Duress in, it's because I'm facing a deck with very little in the creature department and that I have too much removal maindeck. I pick Duress over Cabal Therapy because it's stronger against combo decks where missing a blind Therapy could cost me the game. (Duress still isn't anywhere close to enough to sway combo to my favor, but it tends to be better than Warren Weirding/Gempalm.) It also randomly hits problem cards. Plague. Humility. Etc.

My list at current.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills (Testing Auntie's Hovel for Stifle-dodging)
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer (Something else I'm re-testing. May go back to being 4th Gempalm or 3rd Siege-Gang.)

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Duress
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Chalice of the Void/Pithing Needle/Goblin Tinkerer

Mantis
01-19-2009, 11:02 AM
Yesterday I played in a 156 man (I believe) tourney. I ended up going 5-3 after being very close to making T8.

I played the following list:
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
2 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
4 Chalice of the Void

I didn't really like my SB, the Pyrokinesis were awesome though. Jittes were only good for anti Jitte hate, so I guess Shattering Spree or something might have been better in that slot.
Relics won me a ton of games. The mono red base was incredible. The sideboard could have been better, I'm thinking about taking out the Jittes and the Stingscourger for more combo hate. Either Thorn of Amethyst or Pyrostatic Pillar is going to get the nod. If I had 4 Pillar I think I would have had a shot in the Solidarity and Elf Combo matchup.

My results were:
2-1 vs. Boros with Soltari Priest, Lightning Helix, Lions, Vial, Fanatics and some other stuff. I had Vial in the 2 games I won and this proved to be critical. In one game I used Vialed in a Stingscourger which returned Isamaru and traded with Savannah Lions, this tempo swing won me the game. Also, thanks to all my Mountains he wasn't able to disrupt my mana with Wasteland.

1-0 vs. RB Goblins, he got a Gameloss for mis registering his deck. He was ahead most of the game thanks to Ringleader, but I had Vial and he didn't so I could drop all my creatures. Again Vial into Stingscourger won me the game as he attacked with Warchief and Piledriver and I traded with Chief and returned the Piley. I was stuck on low land though, so I was happy that my lands couldn't be Wastelanded, although I did have Vial.

1-2 vs. Eva Green, this was painful. I can't recall this match very well. I did have Relic in 2 games, of which one I won. The game where I did have it, he started with Hypnotic Specter and he Reanimated my Warchief when I was tapped out and couldn't use Relic. If only he would have drawn his Goyfs or Tombstalkers I would have easily won that game. Second game I blew him out. On the 3rd game he was stuck on mana ( he had a Waste and a Swamp), I had two options; one was to just play out my Goblins and hope to gain enough tempo to win, the other was tie him down with Rishadan Port. I chose the first because I figured that I would only give him the oppurtunity to draw himself out of the situation. I believe I picked right, but he happened to have Engineered Plague and I couldn't recover when Goyf came down next.

2-0 vs. Team America, he got stuck on mana both games. This was really easy, his Stifles and Wastes didn't hurt me and I could Waste and Port his lands.

2-1 vs. UGWB Good stuff? with Confidant, Goyf, Trygon Predator, STP, FoW, Brainstorm and Chrome Mox. Game one he blew me out with first turn Confidant off Chrome Mox, second turn Confidant. I couldn't recover from his card advantage. Game two, I manascrewed him with Waste/Port and game three I can't really recall. I think Vial or Lackey just went to distance while I was tying up his mana.

2-1 vs. UG Threshold, with Mongrel, Aquamoeba, Goyf, Wonder, Back to Basics (MAINDECK!) and Basking Rootwalla I knew what he was playing and I knew what he was playing. We figured out I would have the advantage and that proved to be true. Relics just owned him. Only threat I feared was Mongrel, and I mean Goblins should be able to beat a Mongrel. I made a ton of mistakes this round as I hadn't eaten much and was a bit dried out. I was also a bit tense as I knew I would have a good shot at making T8 if I won this. I still won because the match is so favorable. The game he won, he started of by setting EE @ 1 and I had Vial in my hand. The rest of my hand was awfully slow. He then got Mongrel with Jitte and I could never recover from the tempo loss. The third game I sided in Jittes to destroy his Jittes, he never saw the Jittes though. I played around Daze quite nicely though, but the matchup is so favorable (with the basic lands and the Relic) I just couldn't lose.

1-2 vs. Elf combo.....
Yeah I was quite pissed to see this matchup. If I would have won this match I could have drawn into T8.
First game I was stuck on land, he blew me out with the combo.
Second game, Pyrokinesis made short work of his Elves and Port tied up his mana.
Third game was really exciting, I had Vial and I managed to survive until I got three counters. He was low on mana so Port was pretty good here. Port + Vial allowed me to gain a lot of tempo. I got Port at 3 and used Matron to look for Sharpshooter. I could searched for Incinerator as well to burn out the Nettle Sentinel he had used Chord of Calling to look for. I opted he would still probably win in the long run that way. I then passed my turn and he went off next turn, I think he just topdecked his way out of that one, because if I got Sharpshooter down that would have made the difference.

I was really frustrated to lose this match, as I would have definately won this if I had the chance to start. I also forgot to board in Chalice, in retrospect this might have cost me the match. With 4 Chalice, 4 Pyrokinesis and 1 Sharpshooter and perhaps even the Jittes I think I would have had a pretty decent matchup.

0-2 against Solidarity.
I was frustrated about not making T8 and then I also got the worst possible matchup to f**k up my end result. I looked at the tables next to me and all the other decks felt like decks I could handle. If I would have had a different pairing I might have won here and I would at least win a fetch or Vindicate or something, now I got one Asian Champions of Kamigawa booster...

My friend Duncan, who goes by DKK on here, proceeded to finish third with Dreadstill. Let me tell you folks, Dreadstill is the best deck in the format. 2 Dreadstill decks in the T4 says enough. And because numbers 1 and 2 didn't want to go to GP Chitown he got the honour instead. So I'm glad for him, although it did mean we had to stay at the tournament site for another 4 hours. A draft and a T4 game with the coolest stack ever made up for the waiting though.

If I would play Goblins again, I would definately keep it mono red. I am not sure if I would play 4 Relics maindeck, 2 or 3 might be the right number. I would play 4 Mogg Fanatics in my 75, I really missed them. Tinkerer would be delegated to the sideboard and more Stingscourger would be maindeck.

It was an awesome day, but finishing with such a poor record after such a good start was just a bit disappointing.

-Mantis.

ScatmanX
01-19-2009, 11:19 AM
Congrats on the champ Mantis. Seems you were paired with 2 badmatchs (combo), and got unlucky in the other. Nice to see monoR doing so well. And the list looks good. Though I would make the changes you sugested.

GreenOne
01-19-2009, 11:27 AM
1-2 vs. Eva Green, this was painful. I can't recall this match very well. I did have Relic in 2 games, of which one I won. The game where I did have it, he started with Hypnotic Specter and he Reanimated my Warchief when I was tapped out and couldn't use Relic.

Here you could just let the opponent declare the target, then tap relic (without needing any mana) to target yourself and decide to remove Warchief. If relic was already tapped, I don't get why, unless your opponent had 5-6 cards in the grave.


If I would play Goblins again, I would definately keep it mono red. I am not sure if I would play 4 Relics maindeck, 2 or 3 might be the right number. I would play 4 Mogg Fanatics in my 75, I really missed them. Tinkerer would be delegated to the sideboard and more Stingscourger would be maindeck.

How was incinerator like? I've lately experienced some problems with it, being uncapable of removing even the little dudes before 3rd turn (with lackey as only first turn creature-drop), like Confidants.
I guess a number of Fanatics are good in the deck, but what you'd remove? I'd go with -1 Tinkerer -1 Incinerator +2 Fanatics, maybe. I do not believe Fanatics have to be sb cards, though.

Anyway, congrats on your performance. You did well, just had a bit of unluck in the elves matchup.
And, yay, monored still rocks! :cool:

Mantis
01-19-2009, 11:55 AM
@Gempalm, yeah it wasn't that great in retrospect. Might want to remove some of them for more Fanatics/Stingscourgers.


Here you could just let the opponent declare the target, then tap relic (without needing any mana) to target yourself and decide to remove Warchief. If relic was already tapped, I don't get why, unless your opponent had 5-6 cards in the grave.

I always tap my Relic in my mainphase, to limit the number of cards my opponent can remove. Also, you can not respond to a Tombstalker, so it's best to have as much cards removed as possible. A Tombstalker could also come off Dark Ritual if the opponent doesn't have a lot of cards in his grave.
I would never have foreseen a Reanimate on one of my creatures, so I may have to reconsider that strategy against Eva Green and Team America postboard maybe. If I had thought about Reanimate I would never have tapped my Relic, but alas, it was too late.

Thanks for the kind words GreenOne and Scatman, though I wouldn't claim my performance on bad luck. I had my fair share of luck throughout the tournament (see the Goblins and Team America matches).

GreenOne
01-19-2009, 11:58 AM
A Tombstalker could also come off Dark Ritual if the opponent doesn't have a lot of cards in his grave.
If the number is 3 or less you usually just don't have to worry. You can also remove a card in responce to Dark Ritual in this case.

Mantis
01-19-2009, 12:12 PM
If the number is 3 or less you usually just don't have to worry. You can also remove a card in responce to Dark Ritual in this case.
True, I guess you are right, I will keep this in mind in future matches against Team America and Eva Green. That might have cost me the match..

ScatmanX
01-19-2009, 12:17 PM
I also wouldn't predict a reanimate from the otherside. Nevertheless, I think is best to tap it eot...

About luck on TA, I wouldn't call it that. 4 Relics main and no Fetch/nonbaisc are bombs agains't them. Your deck were prepared for the match.

Mantis
01-19-2009, 12:26 PM
About luck on TA, I wouldn't call it that. 4 Relics main and no Fetch/nonbaisc are bombs agains't them. Your deck were prepared for the match.
True but it was never really a match. If I came with Ports/Waste 4 Mons Goblins, 4 Raging Goblins, 4 Adder-Staff Boggart and 4 Goblin War Buggy I still would have won. The guy was so unlucky I almost felt sorry for him, it was pretty unreal.

Nelis
01-19-2009, 03:55 PM
1-0 vs. RB Goblins, he got a Gameloss for mis registering his deck. He was ahead most of the game thanks to Ringleader, but I had Vial and he didn't so I could drop all my creatures. Again Vial into Stingscourger won me the game as he attacked with Warchief and Piledriver and I traded with Chief and returned the Piley. I was stuck on low land though, so I was happy that my lands couldn't be Wastelanded, although I did have Vial.


So I played you that second round. :-) I thought you were playing very dangerously against me. You did an all out attack without being able to kill me. If I had not drawn a Siege-gang Commander on my turn but another Goblin you would have lost. Because I could have gone Warchief, Piledriver, Piledriver, random goblin. You knew I had at least a piledriver and a Warchief in hand So I had a lot of outs.

You were definitely in a better board position than me but I was the control player in this matchup. But you won fair and square, I was stupid for not having checked my list.

I went 5-3 as well, playing Rb Goblins. I lost to you. A very badly playing German guy, it was a tough match-up though because of Jittes and I just barely lost. And I lost to 43 Land, a terrible match-up.

This was my list:
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands

4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey

1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Weirding

1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief

1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Ringleader

2 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard:
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Chalice of The Void

I expected a lot of (aggro)control and ANT. That's why my SB is very anti-combo. I did not just want to roll over and die to combo. I figured I would be able to win against other aggro decks. And a lot of my SB cards are good vs other match-ups as well because they're very generic (right use of words?).

The only combo I actually encountered was High Tide, which I won.

I really like my deck choices but will exchange a Siege-gang Commander for a Goblin Sharpshooter. I don't like drawing Siege-gangs in multiples, I rather search for them. And I might take out Wort as well next time. Don't know what to exchange it for though.

Ectoplasm
01-19-2009, 04:15 PM
List I played with yesterday, in the same tourney:

22 land (6 dual, 7 fetch, 5 mountains and 4 waste)
4 lackey, fanatic, vial
4 piledriver, 3 weirding, 1 TSH
4 matron, warchief, 2 incinerator, 1 sharpshooter
4 ringleader, 1 wort
2 SGC

Side: 4x grip, relic, 3x choke, 1x gaea's blessing, squad, vexing shusher and stingscourger

Went 4-4, sadly :( Faced TES and 43land.dec and kept some shitty hands, doing bad on mulligans overall.
Even though I really miss my ports I still like RGB, but I'm probably cutting Wort. All she has EVER done, is get back one (1) gempalm incinerator and there's way better goblins to cast most of the time.
The random stingscourger SB proved itself valuable time and time again, love that card, never used the blessing even though there were a couple of painter.dec so I'm just gonna keep it for now and rack it up to bad luck and I played 2 goblin mirrors and an elf aggro deck with the glimpse combo as extra tech where the sharpshooter proved to be gamewinning, along with the fanatics, which I still love.

Eldariel
01-19-2009, 05:46 PM
1-2 vs. Eva Green, this was painful. I can't recall this match very well. I did have Relic in 2 games, of which one I won. The game where I did have it, he started with Hypnotic Specter and he Reanimated my Warchief when I was tapped out and couldn't use Relic. If only he would have drawn his Goyfs or Tombstalkers I would have easily won that game. Second game I blew him out. On the 3rd game he was stuck on mana ( he had a Waste and a Swamp), I had two options; one was to just play out my Goblins and hope to gain enough tempo to win, the other was tie him down with Rishadan Port. I chose the first because I figured that I would only give him the oppurtunity to draw himself out of the situation. I believe I picked right, but he happened to have Engineered Plague and I couldn't recover when Goyf came down next.

The primary question here once again is your hand. If you've got the landdrops (or Vial/Lackey, of course), you'll play the control-game. If you need to just devote yourself to tapping lands and can't advance your own gameplan at all in the meanwhile, you play the aggro-game and pray. But ideally, you want to be denying their mana always to fight the Plagues. Also, having Patron of the Akki would be huge. If you don't have the control-elements, the bigger question is if keeping your opener was correct.


1-2 vs. Elf combo.....
Third game was really exciting, I had Vial and I managed to survive until I got three counters. He was low on mana so Port was pretty good here. Port + Vial allowed me to gain a lot of tempo. I got Port at 3 and used Matron to look for Sharpshooter. I could searched for Incinerator as well to burn out the Nettle Sentinel he had used Chord of Calling to look for. I opted he would still probably win in the long run that way. I then passed my turn and he went off next turn, I think he just topdecked his way out of that one, because if I got Sharpshooter down that would have made the difference.

There's a definite question of what you've got in hand at this point. If your hand has enough fuel to kill him in two turns or so, this play looks really weak. Incinerator would've been my pick provided that you had the lands to port and use it; the extra card would've gone a long way, and could've been e.g. Pyrokinesis or a second Incinerator. Also, Chalice is a definite SB card. I managed to lose to the Elf combo once too, because I didn't play Fanatics and while I had a bit more removal, I failed to draw a killer hand (I didn't have Pyrokinesis).

Landing SGC is practically game win right there though - they have no means of protecting their Elves from it and you can easily wreck their engine and laugh. It's definitely in our favor with Fanatic, but even just Pyrokinesis on the SB is enough.


0-2 against Solidarity.
I was frustrated about not making T8 and then I also got the worst possible matchup to f**k up my end result. I looked at the tables next to me and all the other decks felt like decks I could handle. If I would have had a different pairing I might have won here and I would at least win a fetch or Vindicate or something, now I got one Asian Champions of Kamigawa booster...

Solidarity really isn't all that bad a match-up. Between Lackey, Port and Chalice, you're actually well-equipped to beat them. Back in 2005, Mono-Red Goblins about split with Solidarity. The fact that their fundamental turn is 4 means you can win before them even on the draw, and having two cards for relevant disruption does a lot. You may have missed a lot of relevant plays by giving it up. Good mulligans and aggressive hands are all it takes; force them to have the FoW and then punish them for losing the cards. Port in response to High Tide (when they're going off; otherwise on their turn of course) and make sure they have to go off ASAP.

FoulQ
01-20-2009, 12:13 AM
I know this might sound crazy but...

has anyone tried splashing blue JUST for stifle, and maybe BEB (or some other blue card I'm not thinking of) out of the sideboard? It would play like monored with 4 ports and 4 wastelands, but you get 4 stifles to help in the mana denial package and sideboarding options open up. And you aren't sacrificing any more to Ringleader than other splashes.

Just a thought.

Mantis
01-20-2009, 04:33 AM
@Nelis: My play seemed right at the time as it forced you to make some unfavorable trades. Perhaps I should have waited indeed, but that gave you the time to get back into the game. If I wouldn't have attacked you could overwhelm me and I might have lost. I am not good enough at math that I could calculate the odds on the spot (I think nobody really is), so I just had to go with my gut.

Anyway, your list and sideboard look very solid. I would cut a few cards to fit in Pyrokinesis, that card is nuts. I dislike the Wort though, would replace it with Earwig Squad. Also, I don't really like the Stronghold. If I were to play RB Goblins your list is probably close to what I would run.


The primary question here once again is your hand. If you've got the landdrops (or Vial/Lackey, of course), you'll play the control-game. If you need to just devote yourself to tapping lands and can't advance your own gameplan at all in the meanwhile, you play the aggro-game and pray. But ideally, you want to be denying their mana always to fight the Plagues. Also, having Patron of the Akki would be huge. If you don't have the control-elements, the bigger question is if keeping your opener was correct.



There's a definite question of what you've got in hand at this point. If your hand has enough fuel to kill him in two turns or so, this play looks really weak. Incinerator would've been my pick provided that you had the lands to port and use it; the extra card would've gone a long way, and could've been e.g. Pyrokinesis or a second Incinerator. Also, Chalice is a definite SB card. I managed to lose to the Elf combo once too, because I didn't play Fanatics and while I had a bit more removal, I failed to draw a killer hand (I didn't have Pyrokinesis).

Landing SGC is practically game win right there though - they have no means of protecting their Elves from it and you can easily wreck their engine and laugh. It's definitely in our favor with Fanatic, but even just Pyrokinesis on the SB is enough.



Solidarity really isn't all that bad a match-up. Between Lackey, Port and Chalice, you're actually well-equipped to beat them. Back in 2005, Mono-Red Goblins about split with Solidarity. The fact that their fundamental turn is 4 means you can win before them even on the draw, and having two cards for relevant disruption does a lot. You may have missed a lot of relevant plays by giving it up. Good mulligans and aggressive hands are all it takes; force them to have the FoW and then punish them for losing the cards. Port in response to High Tide (when they're going off; otherwise on their turn of course) and make sure they have to go off ASAP.
I don't know, Patron of the Akki seems terrible. I can usually beat one Plague, I even did so in one of the two games where my opponent got it down. There are also a ton of games where I can just cut my opponent off mana so he never gets to play Plague. I don't think Patron of the Akki would make a difference in that particular game. If I have enough mana and gas I can still win through one Plague and if I don't I can't cast Patron of the Akki anyway.

I had no gas versus Elves, that was the problem. Incinerator or Sharpshooter would both have been a gamble, in hindsight I should have fetched out the Incinerator, but that's easy talking. As he didn't go off the turns before I figured that if I could get Sharpshooter on the table it would be GG unless he would draw one of his outs the following turn. If I would fetch out Incinerator I would have been the one depending on my topdecks and things could still horribly go wrong.
I think the real mistake I made that game was not bringing in Chalices.

Vs. Solidarity there was just nothing I could do. First game he had FoW and Remand + tons of cantrips to sculpt the perfect hand.
Second game, I mulliganned my hand with (I think) a Lackey, one land and 2 Chalices. I figured that if I were to draw a land I could land a Chalice at one on my second turn and I would be in good position. It was not to be.. he killed me on turn 3.

Anyway, looking in hindsight I could have made T8 if I played a little better. The T8 looked very good for me, so I really feel bad right now. I truly made the right call with mono R and the Relics maindeck.

Nelis
01-20-2009, 10:50 AM
The RBG list is probably my current favorite b/c of all the answers it has access to by playing 2 splashes for main deck and sideboard. The benefits of the deck is having access to tin street and krosan grip in the board. I always felt that you have to find a way with dealing with enigneered plague. The 3 color version also gives you access to engineered explosives in the board which is very nice. The disadvantages is the mana base, but I believe the rewards that the 3 colors is worth the risk.

The R/b list has a very solid mana base, but I felt the sideboard answers to plague just isn't that good. In regards to the GP, you have to have a reliable way to deal with plague, since they will be all over the place. Black has earwig squad and drualu's crusade. Those are not reliable answers for myself, but the version is very strong all depending on the meta game your expecting.


So basically you're saying (please, correct me if I'm wrong) that you weaken your mana base so you can play Engineered Explosives and Krosan Grip just because of Enqineered Plague? Which means that you are much more vulnerable to Wastelands and to lesser extent Stifles, which you will encounter more often than sideboarded Engineered Plagues?

The only other reason you play green is Tin Street Hooligan I suppose? Goblin Tinkerer does exactly the same thing. And you can cast a Tinkerer with a Goblin Warchief in play which you cannot do with Tin Street Hooligan.

You do not really need Krosan Grip against Counterbalance in my opinion. Before CounterTop is online you already have played your key 1cc/ 2cc spells. And they have a hard time countering your 3cc+ spells after that.

And if you run EE and Grip in your SB what do you do against combo decks?

With black in your sideboard you can still preemptively get rid of Engineered Plague/Counterbalance by means of Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, whichever of those you like to play, and at the same time have proper answers to fight combo decks.

Or is the US metagame really that different from the European one?

sauce
01-20-2009, 11:35 AM
I'd stick with monored right now, due to the huge amount of Land Disruption people is playing nowadays.

Also, going monored you have a reason to run maindeck Relic, which is just huge against a good number of matchups.

Decks to beat right now:
DreadStill
Goblins
Landstill
AggroLoam
Team America
Rock
ANT
UGr Thrash
UGb Thresh
UGw Thresh

In bold the decks that are packing LD suites and underlined decks that are using their graveyard somehow.


The rock uses the graveyard too for Goyf growth & Eternal witness.