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Machinus
04-17-2007, 02:08 AM
A deck which has defined Legacy for most of it's existence, Vial Goblins is likely to remain a strong tournament choice until combo and hate can bring it's presence to lower levels.


//Tempo Generators
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief

//Removal
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator

//Draw Engine
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

//Damage
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Land Destruction
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

//Mana
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain
2 Mountain/Red Dual

//Open slots
3 X


For the open slots, many players run artifact removal in the form of Goblin Tinkerer or Tin-Street Hooligan. Other such potential cards are Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis, Siege-Gang Commander, or the 24th land. In splash versions, this slot has also been Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, or Cabal Therapy. There are several choices for the sideboard: Red Elemental Blast, Pyrokinesis, Chalice of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Pyrostatic Pillar, Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, etc. Which of these you choose basically depends on the meta, but strong anti-hate and anti-combo elements are usually always necessary.

Much has been written about this deck in reports and articles (one more coming next month), so I won't repeat that discussion.

Modern Goblins Primer, Part I (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13965.html)
Deck History (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31698.0)
Old Source Thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=618)


Some basic matchup analysis:

Goblins is just over parity against Threshold, but UGR with 4 Pyroclasms post-board can be tough. White threshold is usually easier to handle, as WW is easier to stop (for Tividar's Crusade).

Goblins also has tough matchups with RGB Survival and B/R Suicide, again due to very strong hate such as Pyroclasm and Engineered Plague. These weapons are one reason why Goblins' numbers have been dropping (slowly, but) steadily.

Goblins can have a strong post-board anti-combo game, but this depends on having relevant draws and a strong sideboard. Goblins will lose a lot of game 1s to combo, especially Tendrils-based decks.

Goblins has very little trouble dealing with most Control decks. Those not blue-based have advantages since they can deploy better hate, but for the most part control does not have strong tools against this deck.


The big questions for this deck's future:

- What anti-combo elements are most consistent and effective for use in this deck?
- How can hate be reliably dealt with when it's in basically every single sideboard?
- Are new strategies necessary to outmaneuver ever-developing technology?

Awesomator
04-28-2007, 12:32 PM
Eldariel, Tranquil Domain is a good card, however, having more outs against decks with Artifacts makes Grip the better choice in my opinion. Plagues hurt, but not bad enough to the point where you would need extra hate in. Grip is extremely versatile. Patron came in on so many of my matchups, and helped against pyroclasm, infest, swords, burn, basically good against almost any form of removal aside of mass removal. Tranquil Domain is awesome against enchantress, wombat, multiple plagues, as well as other decks. Grip may not be quite as good in these particular matchups, but is much better in most matchups. The reason I took out the two Patron of the Akki's from my board is because the 4th grip is about as good against plague as patron, it kills chill, and it will most likely help more in general. The 4th Pillar gives a better combo match, and helps a lot against most decks running plague, aside from Red Death. Also I will note that I hate the list they have up reaaaaally bad. I don't like only 2 taiga, you would have to run a minimum of three, I prefer 4 with 6 fetch lands total (mires over foothills, Most players will name wooded foothills with needle). I would definitely run 3 siege gang at the GP, no less. 2 MD Tin street is excellent and I wish I had room for a third.

Bardu
04-28-2007, 01:15 PM
Awesomator, what is your reasoning behind 3x Pyrokinesis SB rather than the full set? For reference I'd been running 3x Pyrostatic Pillar which IMO is a much weaker anti-combo weapon than Chalice. Otherwise, my decklist is the same as yours.

BreathWeapon
04-28-2007, 01:23 PM
How good is Pillar against Tendrils? Pillar alone can't stop the opponent from using Tendrils to win, since IGG and Tendris are 4cc, aggro needs to do 4 more damage just for the soft lock, and that gives Tendrils the time to Brainstorm and Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns or at least Brainstorm with out suffering damage.

It doesn't seem to be significant against Tendrils with out a clock cast on the first turn, and even then that clock is going to be hard pressed to do 4 damage before turn 3. Is there something I'm missing here? Wastelands and Rishadan Ports? Rishadan Port doesn't seem to be fast enough, considering Pillar is a 2 drop, and Wasteland has to be used on turn one, setting back the Pillar to turn 3, or after the Pillar is cast, which is the same as Rishadan Port.

Granted, the opponent could do 2 points of damage to himself with his lands or have Plunge into Darkness, but is that something that Goblins should count on?

Wouldn't something along the lines of Leyline of the Void be better in the SB? It gives Goblins a double Time Walk for Tendrils to answer it, or it forces them to go for Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens, the first of which is random and the second of which isn't a win condition against aggro with out the first. Uncounterable 4cc discard pile hate is also solid in the Threshold match up, where it can't be prevented with their counter wall or removed with their Engineered Explosives, and it's bound to be useful against Reanimator or the rewording of Flash etc.

Pillar just seems to be a hold over from High Tide, where turn 4 and Storm 20 turned it into a hard lock, but Goblins can race High Tide and board in Red Elemental Blast as it is.

So, what's so great about Pillar? How is it being used to stop Tendrils?

Bane of the Living
04-28-2007, 02:07 PM
Pillar is used for its versatility. Its a monster against Loam decks which are generally a bad match for you. Its great against thresh since everything in the deck aside from Enforcer will deal them 2 damage. Its great against combo since its a 2 drop. All the other anti combo in red/green/white is three mana or more aside from Orims Chant which is bad since you dont want to keep mana open waiting for combo. Its never ever easy for tendrils to combo out with Pillar on the board, they need to think about each spell before leading up to tendrils. It requires them to use tendrils instead of warrens, and requires they follow up a non lethal tendrils with a lethal one. 2 Pillars is usually gg and Pillar + CotV is also end game. The versatility of an enchantment hate card is also a nice option since your opponent needs an answer to enchantments, not just creatures and artifacts.

Awesomator
04-28-2007, 02:37 PM
@Bardu- I don't run the full set of pyrokinesis, because Most aggro decks are already good/decent matchups. Tin Street is a huge deal in the Gob matchup. Focusing more on bad matchups is much more important imo. Goblins is very hard to play, and few can play it right, so when i play the mirror I try to take full advantage of the mistakes my opponents are making.

@breathweapon- Tendrils is not going to be a huge percentage of the field man, you really need to understand this. If I were to run leyline, I would actually need to dedicate a lot of the sb to it. Pillar helps with morebad or even matchups than Leyline. I would need to have leyline in my opening hand or else it's useless. Thresh is already a good matchup, but Leyline would help vs loam based control decks (which pillar already does). Pillar is good against decks more on the control side running E plague. Pillar is even good to just squeeze damage in. 2 pillars isn't always GG, but it is automatically at least 8 damage in, and that's if they have it in their hand. If a player doesn't have a burning wish in hand it is probably a definite GG, and if they get it off with tranquility, then they need to also be able to combo out and find another tutor if they didn't have two. There are much much better choices against tendrils than Pillar, however, Pillar helps in many matchups, and a versatile sideboard will take you a long way.

BreathWeapon
04-28-2007, 03:21 PM
Considering the number of combo decks in the field is irrelevant when I'm the one using the combo deck; I just want to know whether or not Pillar is even a concern, since I've never lost to it in a tournament or encountered it online. Other people using Tendrils just seem to lose to Pillar because they're terrible; Burning Wish for an answer is pointless, because the deck can just Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns and go for it.

I understand Pillar is used because it affects Threshold as well as Aggro-Loam, but so does Leyline of the Void, and that card crushes Threshold and Aggro-Loam; it's turn zero, it's uncounterable, it's free, it's permanent, it's difficult to remove and it permits aggressive mulligans.

Just in testing, I haven't lost a game 3, assuming I win game 1 and lose game 2, against their turn one Lackey and turn two Pillar; 2 drops just don't seem to be good enough when you're on the draw, and counting on Pillar, Pillar or Pillar, Chalice is weak, because the odds aren't good, and they're still boarding in Shattering Spree and wishing for Hull Breach.

I'd just rather use something that is more consistent in that slot, Leyline of the Void pushes them into Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens, so you could board in Goblin Sharpshooters and take advantage of their plan B.

Awesomator
04-28-2007, 03:40 PM
Leyline is a much better card against you, but pillar can still do the trick. A lot of players misboard and get less aggressive against Combo. Don't go by results of players online, they are almost always terrible. I will play the match with you on MWS if you would like. Since I run 4 pillar we can actually see how big its effects are on the matchup. Leyline is more consistant against combo, and less consistant against everything else. Like I wrote on my last post, the focus of the sideboards should be to stay versatile. Pillar is a much more versatile card than Leyline since survival is rarely played. You don't try to count on having double hate also, you can aggressively mull slow hands into these kind of hands though. Chalice for 0 + Waste/port is extremely effective also on the play.

Van Phanel
04-29-2007, 08:14 PM
Hi there, I'm looking for some advice.

First the list I'm playing:

4 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Pyromancer
2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 AEther Vial

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis

As far as I've been able to read out of this thread, this is exactly Awesomators list except for the Pyromancer and manabase. Is it really not worth playing? It is able to win games on the spot where no other card would help. I know it's very situational, but thats why it is a one-of.

Then I really need some advice with the sideboarding.

a) for the Mirror: You obviously want to board in the Pyrokinesis, do you also want Grips (like 2 maybe)? I wouldn't think so, but they can destroy vials. Then what comes out? Lackeys? There isn't anything else I'd even consider except maybe Piledriver.

b) against NQG/w: You'd want the Calices, Pillars and Grips in this matchup, but have you got enough Goblins to board out?

c) against NQG/r: What comes in what comes out? They can go aggro, so Pillar might hurt you more than them, but their cantripping engine also is hurt by Pillar. Chalice?! Grip?!

d) against Deadguy/Red Death: I am sure you want the Grips for their Plagues. How about the Prokinesis? I guess you'd also board them in both matchups, but again what is boarded out?

e) against combo:
I) Combo without relevant Permanents(Solidarity): In come Pillars and Chalices.
II) Combo with grippable Permanents like Iggy PoP or TES: Chalices and Pillars also come in, do you want the Grips?

against any of those what goes out?

f) against Stax: Grips come in and out goes?

g) against Fairie Stompy: you want Grips and Pyrokinesis here I guess, again what comes out?

Thanks in advance for any help I get

Gekoratel
04-29-2007, 08:49 PM
Well first off on your list I think the 3rd Siege Gang is a much more integral card to the deck than the 1 of Pyromancer. Siege Gang is an awesome topdeck against a lot of decks and by running 3 you get more Lackey->Siege Gang draws. As for sideboarding

Mirror:
-3 Goblin Piledriver
+3 Pyrokinesis
I know from talking with one person that he boards out Lackeys on the draw but I think that Piledriver is a worse card the majority of the time.

Grow:
+4 Chalice
-4 Mogg Fanatic
Fanatic does practically nothing in this matchup because only terrible players will run out Werebear without Thresh. Also Chalice wants to be set @ 1 so removing a 1cc works well with this strategy. I don't think boarding in Pillar or Grip is worth it because then your Ringleaders wont be hitting as well and they are very important in that matchup.

Combo:
+4 Pillar +4 Chalice
-4 Gempalm -2 Tin Street -2 Mogg Fanatic
You don't bother bringing in Grips against form of combo because your already boarding in 8 anti-combo cards and you dont want to over sideboard. Also the Iggy Pop/TES player doesn't need to pass priority so Grips seem very marginal.

Awesomator
04-29-2007, 08:57 PM
ohh man long post lol

A)Pyromancer is good and capable of winning games, however, the third siege gang helps you race combo which is your worst matchup. I would run sharpshooter before Pyromancer and I don't run either.

B) Very good question, I guess it would depend on which build they are playing.
What is the build you have been up against? Counterbalance Top thresh?

C) You could board out: 2x Tin street, 1X Pyromancer, 1x SGC, 3x Incinerator, a couple mogg fanatic. Really depends on what build you're up against. Always leave at least 1 incinerator to find with tutors, but against the build with heavy burn and 4x SB Pyroclasm your board is usually very small.

D) Deadguy and Red Death are two different board startegies. I board in pillar against Deadguy. Against Deadguy depending on the play/draw situation your strategy should be different. In: 3x Pillar, 3x Kinesis, 4x Grip. Out: 3x Gempalm incinerator, 3x Piledriver, 2x Tin Street, For you, out 1x Pyromancer,1 SGC or 1 lackey on draw. Against Red Death Just the 3x Kinesis and 4x grip. Out 2x Gempalm, 2x Tin street, 1x Pyromancer, 2x Piledriver.

E)
I) Against solidarity, I board out 2x tin street, 3x Goblin Ringleader, 3x Gempalm.
II) Although it is nice to kill Storm decks artifacts, most likely you won't get that chance. I usually try to keep the speed in and use only Chalice and Pillar. I leave in Tin Street in case I get that Chance though. Out 4x Ringleader and 4x gempalm.

F) Stax: There are way too many different stax decks. Some of them run creatures and some don't. Depending on the build, In 4x Pyrostatic Pillar and in 4x Krosan grip. Always a tough choice as to waht to take out. Out: 4x Incinerator, 2x piledriver, 2X Mogg Fanatic (more or less depending on whether or not you're playing first).

G) Faery Stompy I board in: 4x Grip and 3x Kinesis. Out 1x Pyromancer, 1x Siege-gang, 3x Piledriver, 2x fanatic (also depending on what build you're playing against).

I kind of rushed through this but hope it helped at least a bit.

Eldariel
04-29-2007, 08:59 PM
Against most combo, I take out Ringleaders. I think it's by far the weakest card in the deck. Gempalms kill whatever Dark Confidants they try to use to gain advantage of you taking creature removal out and it makes a better beater than Ringleader. Tin Street is integral for destroying whatever artifacts they haste out in anticipation of your Chalice and make your mana denial strategy more complete with Wastes/Ports and Tin Streets hitting all the mana sources they've got. Otherwise I agree though, -4 Ringleaders, -3 Gempalms, -1 Fanatic seems like a decent side if you don't expect Warrens (against Warrens, you'll definitely want Fanatics as they allow you to stem the bleeding especially against 6-8 point warrens).

Awesomator
04-29-2007, 09:02 PM
Most combo players won't risk warrens unless they have to since some players run sharpshooter. I leave in the fanatics for speed and conifdant killing usually, forgot to mention confidant good call.

Eldariel
04-29-2007, 09:04 PM
Most combo players won't risk warrens unless they have to since some players run sharpshooter. I leave in the fanatics for speed and conifdant killing usually, forgot to mention confidant good call.

Yea, but it doesn't hurt to have insurance, since when they have no other option, they WILL go for Warrens if they still can. And some players just ignore the danger altogether and go by the assumption that most lists don't play SS.

JimmyC27
04-29-2007, 09:36 PM
Has anybody tested Chalice of the Void in the maindeck?

Awesomator
04-29-2007, 09:45 PM
Hellllll No. Chalice is amazing, but it hurts your deck too. You board it in when it gives you the advantage. COTV is awesome in some matchups and terrible in others. If you have a meta full of thresh and combo then definitely do it, but GPs are usually very diverse.

BreathWeapon
04-30-2007, 12:48 AM
Has anybody tested Chalice of the Void in the maindeck?

I'd suggest testing Land Grant and Root Maze first.

Awesomator
04-30-2007, 03:06 AM
lol why root maze? and why land grant? Root maze is awful in this deck. Hurts you worse than it would your opponent because you don't get that quick speedy start. Also it would make your combo matchup even worse. Land grant is terrible because you show your entire strategy to your opponent. Goblins is full of tricks, you don't want to be revealing them.

BreathWeapon
04-30-2007, 04:24 AM
lol why root maze? and why land grant? Root maze is awful in this deck. Hurts you worse than it would your opponent because you don't get that quick speedy start. Also it would make your combo matchup even worse. Land grant is terrible because you show your entire strategy to your opponent. Goblins is full of tricks, you don't want to be revealing them.

Clearly you've never played with/against the card,

Land Grant tutors for Forests, including Taiga, and Root Maze can be used to turn the 8 Fetchland manabases of aggro-control and control against them while Land Grant is still a functionable Fetchland.

First turn Taiga -> Root Maze is a Time Walk in the same sense that first turn Ancient Tomb -> Sphere of Resistance or Chalice of the Void for one is a Time Walk, because the opponent is going to lose his first turn, allowing Goblins to repeat their first turn after the Root Maze is cast with an Aether Vial or a Goblin Lackey.

Root Maze is a 2 for 1 Time Walk against Fetchlands, because the Fetchland CIPs tapped and the land the Fetchland tutors for CIPs tapped, so if Goblins isn't using Fetchlands and the opponent is, it's a one sided tempo generator.

Root Maze DESTROYS combo, High Tide has 8 Fetchlands and relies on its land drops each turn, and TES has 12 Artifacts and 11 lands it has to drop to generate storm and mana before and after the combo.

Land Grant isn't required, but there's no sense in using Fetchlands with Root Maze, the Extended dual lands would also be fine.

Root Maze is the best MD answer to combo Goblins has that isn't dead against the rest of the field, and I've used it in all of the aggro decks in this format so far to serious success.

Silverdragon
04-30-2007, 01:33 PM
Ok I can see how Root Maze is good in some aggro decks... but Goblins?

As a comboplayer I'm quite happy to see you playing Root Maze instead of Pillar or Chalice. With Pillar or Chalice on the board I absolutely have to find an answer or change my playstyle. All I have to do to get around Root Maze is wait a turn and then I can pretend that you didn't play a hate piece at all.
LED doesn't need to be tapped so there are only 2 cards (Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal) that are hurt by Root Maze. Iggy Pop doesn't even play Chrome Mox and TES only has to decide whether it needs the mana or the stormcount of the card.
As for Tide, Root Maze meet your new friend Reset and his buddy Turnabout.
Granted Root Maze does more than nothing but wouldn't you rather play more Goblins in most cases?
edit: I wanted to add that Tide has 6 Fetchlands, and Tide has FoW :)
edit2: With 19 lands in the deck (substituting 4 Fetch for 4 Land Grant) how often is Land Grant a free spell? I'd say not as often as a Fetchland.

BreathWeapon
04-30-2007, 02:03 PM
Root Maze,

Artifacts and lands come into play tapped

It's just the opponent's artifacts and lands, the Goblins and Haste are unaffected.

No one is using Root Maze to replace a SB card, I'm using Root Maze to replacing Mogg Fanatic, so the rest of the anti-combo SB cards aren't competing for slots.

High Tide has 8 Fetchlands here, and so did the original lists, so that's what I'm going on, and regardless of Turnabout and Reset, the opponent is still losing at least one land on the turn he is going off, two mana with High Tide, and he's getting double tapped for each Fetchland.

TES gets its Chrome Mox and Lotus Petals tapped before the combo and during the combo, so he's losing either storm count or mana count and then he's losing the mana count from the Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal after a Diminishing Returns and a land drop. CIPing the artifacts and passing the turn also allows Tin-Street Hooligan to turn into a Stone Rain.

Maze isn't GG against combo, but unlike Pillar, it has a definite affect on their game plan, costs one instead of two, can be MDed and is one sided (considering Fetchlands).

It loses ground against aggro, unless the opponent is using 8 Fetchlands for thinning, but it raises the percentages against the rest of the field as far as I can tell.

SpatulaOfTheAges
04-30-2007, 02:13 PM
Root Maze is terrible because it doesn't shut off LED, and thus, doesn't hurt them much more than you.

It's ok against Solidarity, but you'd rather have something that helps both match-ups.

Shriekmaw
04-30-2007, 02:26 PM
Root Maze is terrible because it doesn't shut off LED, and thus, doesn't hurt them much more than you.

It's ok against Solidarity, but you'd rather have something that helps both match-ups.


I can't believe we are talking about root maze and land grant in Vial Goblins. I think sideboarding in 4 pillar and 4 chalice against solidarity is pretty strong that usually says game over if they let them hit play. This is especially true if you can resolve a Chalice for 1.

I have never lost to Solidarity in a tournament when I was running Vial Goblins. As long as you mulligan aggressively and have a decent clock, it is very hard for solidarity to win. This is especially true after game 1 when you get to board your 8 hate cards against them.

Awesomator
04-30-2007, 03:33 PM
Breathweapon, it makes your land come into play tapped, which slows your clock down. Tendrils and solidarity can win it just about as quickly due to rituals and things like that. Solidarity doesn't need the land untapped, they just need the land in play.

NickRit, you're playing against bad solidarity players. It's not a good matchup, it's pretty much a coin flip.

Shriekmaw
04-30-2007, 03:41 PM
Breathweapon, it makes your land come into play tapped, which slows your clock down. Tendrils and solidarity can win it just about as quickly due to rituals and things like that. Solidarity doesn't need the land untapped, they just need the land in play.

NickRit, you're playing against bad solidarity players. It's not a good matchup, it's pretty much a coin flip.


I'm taking my match records and Tenniebopper's. We have both never lost to Solidarity in a tournament. We have played against good Solidarity players, so don't give me that.

Awesomator
04-30-2007, 03:44 PM
I don't think so, either that or you guys rarely play against solidarity. If you test enough, you have to lose sometime, that should be obvious. I've never lost to solidarity in a sanctioned match, that doesn't mean I beat it 100% of the time. I tested about 22 games vs Gearhart and they were about even.

Shriekmaw
04-30-2007, 03:49 PM
I don't think so, either that or you guys rarely play against solidarity. If you test enough, you have to lose sometime, that should be obvious. I've never lost to solidarity in a sanctioned match, that doesn't mean I beat it 100% of the time. I tested about 22 games vs Gearhart and they were about even.


I'm not saying that Goblins beats Solidarity 100% of the time. I'm just simply saying the 2 best Goblin players in Syracuse have never lost to Solidarity in an sanctioned tournament setting (match wise).

I think the matchup does favor Goblins 55/45. A lot of times it comes down to the player skill level and if they know how to correctly play the matchup.

Awesomator
04-30-2007, 03:57 PM
Depends on what build they're running on whether or not it's favorable. With red splash = good for us because they have non basics in the deck now. BEB is really bad for us, which Gearhart boarded in 4 in our game.

Tacosnape
04-30-2007, 04:23 PM
Depends on what build they're running on whether or not it's favorable. With red splash = good for us because they have non basics in the deck now. BEB is really bad for us, which Gearhart boarded in 4 in our game.

Once again, thank you for being the voice of reason. Your lesbian points now exceed Pinder's. Regrettably, I still don't know what they're redeemable for.

As an owner and regular player of both Goblins and Solidarity as my two longest-standing Legacy decks, I can tell you straight blue Solidarity, red splash excluded, has the edge. With the Red Splash, I believe Goblins has the slight edge (Not enough testing to be sure), which is why I don't play the red splash.

I'm on the reverse end of this and have never lost to Goblins in a sanctioned match playing Solidarity (4-0.) I've never dropped a game one, and I usually only drop game ones in testing when I'm on the draw, they drop a Lackey, and I don't have a Force. There are rare and bizarre exceptions where Solidarity just gets mad at me for not taking it to dinner and buying it flowers and just refuses to give me any cards I need ever, but this happens in any match as much as Goblins. I think I'm 4-3 in second games. I might be 4-2. I can't remember. The games I lost postboard I lost to Lackey followed by Chalice/Pillar when I didn't have enough countermagic to back it up.

Hydroblast is amazing against Goblins postboard, but if Lackey doesn't hit, Remand is amazing preboard. Solidarity players will often let you resolve your Piledriver, then Remand everything that follows it and make your Driver harmless. By the time you're swinging for decent damage, they have what they need.

Interestingly, I'm also 2-0 in sanctioned matches with Goblins against Solidarity. This leads me to the conclusion that most Solidarity players are worse than most people think and that only a handful of people (Or in Alabama's metagame, people named Tacosnape) are capable of piloting the deck well enough to capitalize.

Sims
04-30-2007, 06:43 PM
Root Maze,

Artifacts and lands come into play tapped

It's just the opponent's artifacts and lands, the Goblins and Haste are unaffected.


I'd like to point out a flaw in this statement.... To do this, I will refer to Gatherer and the Oracle text.


Rules Text (Oracle): Artifacts and lands come into play tapped.

It is NOT just the opponents artifacts and lands, it is yours as well. It's a symmetrical effect because the deck really cannot abuse it and make it one sided. Even then, it fails to turn off LED, so it still leaves them with decent acceleration and leaves you playing with your self. Land Grant I refuse to even acknowledge that you mentioned it.

Please stop making our heads hurt..

BreathWeapon
05-01-2007, 01:25 AM
I'd like to point out a flaw in this statement.... To do this, I will refer to Gatherer and the Oracle text.



It is NOT just the opponents artifacts and lands, it is yours as well. It's a symmetrical effect because the deck really cannot abuse it and make it one sided. Even then, it fails to turn off LED, so it still leaves them with decent acceleration and leaves you playing with your self. Land Grant I refuse to even acknowledge that you mentioned it.

Please stop making our heads hurt..

Goblins isn't using an artifact accelerant or fetchlands, so it's still "one sided." Not turning off LED isn't that bad, it still turns off their other 8 accelerants and their land drop during a Diminishing Returns.

Find a better MD card against combo that isn't garbage against the rest of the field.

Jak
05-01-2007, 01:27 AM
Goblins isn't using an artifact accelerant or fetchlands, so it's still "one sided."

I am pretty sure plenty of people are packing 6 fetches in their goblin builds.

Shriekmaw
05-01-2007, 12:56 PM
Goblins isn't using an artifact accelerant or fetchlands, so it's still "one sided." Not turning off LED isn't that bad, it still turns off their other 8 accelerants and their land drop during a Diminishing Returns.

Find a better MD card against combo that isn't garbage against the rest of the field.


I'm not quite sure what exactly you oare talking about when it comes to the statement that "Goblins isn't using an artifact accelerant or fetchlands". I play Vial Goblins quite a bit and I run the 4 Aether Vial plus the full 8 fetch lands which are standard in any Goblins build.

If your that worried about combo, the best main deck card I can think of to run in Goblins is Chalice of the Void. There is not a better card to run in my opinion than this one.

I said this earlier, but Root Maze is something I wouldn't even consider running pre or post board.

BreathWeapon
05-01-2007, 01:13 PM
I'm not looking at this as a challenge to find a better MD combo hate card, I'm looking at this trying to figure out why you're going to play a card that will hurt you. Lets play Point and Counterpoint!

MD Root Maze Pros:
-Turns off artifact accelerants for a turn.
-Hurts Fetching and slows down mana production.
-Actually hurts the belcher win condition, if only for a turn or two.
-Hurts storm by preventing massive mana accel in one turn.

MD Root Maze Cons:
-Lowers your overall threat-density.
-Hurts Fetching and slows down mana production, turn 2 Lackey is not hot.
-Disrupts your own Mana Denial package (Ports and Wastes are near useless.)
-Solidarity will just play lands for 4 turns and then win while you've got lands coming into play tapped, slowing your own clock by not being able to play threats as early, and not doing anything to actively threaten them.
-TES will just slow down a turn to play accelerants and land, wait til you play your land tapped and do nothing, then go off in your grill by casting mass ritual effects and tutors into ETW.
-Belcher can still just rocket into ETW via rituals.



I'm sure I'm forgetting things on both lists, but common sense says that the card is entirely counter-intuitive to the pure aggro-combo strategy of the deck. Providing decks with a speedbump that slows you too isn't the same as blocking them from comboing and beating face.

Pros

-Agreed
-Agreed
-This is important, because Tin Street Hooligan and Goblin Tinker can remove a tapped Goblin Charblecher, and Root Maze also taps the Land Grant -> Taiga, Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal so Root Maze is a 2xTime Walk against them.
-Agreed

Cons

-Agreed, but Mogg Fanatic isn't a serious threat.
-Wrong, Goblins uses 8 R/g Dual Lands instead of Fetchlands with Root Maze.
-Wrong, CIP Fetchlands present Wasteland targets, and in all other cases the mana denial isn't affected.
-Wrong, Fetchlands aside, High Tide has to use its first few turns to sculpt its hands, so even with 4 land on the board High Tide isn't able to go off on turn 4 that often.
-Wrong, First, casting the artifacts before the ETW is senseless, because it reduces the storm count, and second, casting the ETW is bad because Goblins is an aggro deck, the average storm count for ETW is 8 and Goblins can tutor for Goblin Sharpshooter.
-Wrong, Belcher requires the 0 mana to do that, so unless it has the Simian Spirit Guide into all of its red rituals or Elvish Spirit Guide into Tinder Wall into all of its red rituals and it has 6 non-Mox/Petal for Burning Wish into ETW it's not that simple.

You seem to think that combo just ignores Root Maze and goes off, but pick up combo and PT on the draw with a turn one Root Maze out of Goblins and see just how difficult it is.

@Nickrit, Aether Vial isn't an accelerant and CIP tapped has no affect on it.

8 Fetchlands is the entire point, people use Fetchlands with total disregard to Stifle and/or Root Maze, imagine how much that mana base would suck against a deck that used Root Maze and didn't use Fetchlands.

Shriekmaw
05-01-2007, 01:39 PM
@Nickrit, Aether Vial isn't an accelerant and CIP tapped has no affect on it.



I don't understand why Aether Vial isn't an accelerant. In an aggro-based deck, Aether Vial is an amazing accelerant. Aether Vial is probably one of the best cards that is used in the Legacy metagame.

BreathWeapon
05-01-2007, 02:36 PM
I don't understand why Aether Vial isn't an accelerant. In an aggro-based deck, Aether Vial is an amazing accelerant. Aether Vial is probably one of the best cards that is used in the Legacy metagame.

Aether Vial produces mana, but it doesn't increase the amount of mana available, where a Birds of Paradise etc. increases the amount of mana so a two drop can be skipped for a three drop etc.

Aether Vial turns a Goblin into a Cloud of Faeries, so it's more of a tempo generator than a mana generator.

Awesomator
05-01-2007, 04:41 PM
Can we talk about something decent for the deck? Root Maze is never going to be any good in Goblins.

Tacosnape
05-01-2007, 05:19 PM
What are our options to make Goblins not completely dead against Flash combo? The deck's obviously not getting errata'd out and banking on it getting banned in June is risky. I'm already preparing.

My first thought is 4 Leyline of the Void to stop the Disciple variant, as 4 Leylines can be run regardless of color in this capacity. They would also be solid against Iggy Pop, Threshold, and Loam decks.

Depending on their build, Pithing Needle, Swords to Plowshares, Shared Triumph, and Pyrokinesis can also help. Does Green have any hidden mega monsters to deal with Flash combo? Is the blue splash worth looking back into for Trickbind? And what do we maindeck and what do we reserve for sideboard?

BreathWeapon
05-01-2007, 07:17 PM
Can we talk about something decent for the deck? Root Maze is never going to be any good in Goblins.

I've won 4 Force of Will and a Mana Drain off of those Root Mazes, regardless, there's nothing to discuss other than non-Goblin alterations to the MD and SB choices, the deck is about as simple as it gets.

Awesomator
05-01-2007, 07:27 PM
What are our options to make Goblins not completely dead against Flash combo? The deck's obviously not getting errata'd out and banking on it getting banned in June is risky. I'm already preparing.

My first thought is 4 Leyline of the Void to stop the Disciple variant, as 4 Leylines can be run regardless of color in this capacity. They would also be solid against Iggy Pop, Threshold, and Loam decks.

Depending on their build, Pithing Needle, Swords to Plowshares, Shared Triumph, and Pyrokinesis can also help. Does Green have any hidden mega monsters to deal with Flash combo? Is the blue splash worth looking back into for Trickbind? And what do we maindeck and what do we reserve for sideboard?

@Tacosnape: Our current sideboards are useless. Honestly, if flash gets big, R/G Goblins may be tier 2. Red Elemental Blast / PyroBlast, Leyline, A new color other than green would probably be necessary. If this deck actually got big I would guess R/B Goblins would be a much more popular variant. Therapy is a monster vs flash, and we would actually be able to hardcast leyline vs other decks if it isn't in hand. As for monster ideas, the only really effective one would be leyline. Goblins could focus itself to win against Flash decks and other combo, but it may take too much from the deck's speed (which will be fine if the majority of the field turned to combo). The best choice in our meta is R/G, but we'll see what the meta becomes very shortly.

@Breathweapon: Winning four forces and a Mana Drain with Root Maze is cool. Playing Root Maze in Goblins, not cool.

Tacosnape
05-01-2007, 08:25 PM
I've won 4 Force of Will and a Mana Drain off of those Root Mazes, regardless, there's nothing to discuss other than non-Goblin alterations to the MD and SB choices, the deck is about as simple as it gets.

I won a Legacy tournament once with what was basically a Simic Pre-con with Forces, Jittes, and a sideboard. That doesn't make it optimal.

Awesomator
05-01-2007, 09:33 PM
i won a recent legacy tourney with extended loam lol, you got me beat with the precon though.

Tacosnape
05-01-2007, 11:08 PM
i won a recent legacy tourney with extended loam lol, you got me beat with the precon though.

I think I had Phantom Centaur in it too. I remember it was designed to win through a field that had like three Rifter decks and a little Goblins and Combo and it did just that. Graft pwned.

But anyway, I digress. Do we even need black for Leyline of the Void? It seems to me that in most matches we would want it, it would be pointless by the time we could hardcast it. Threshold would already have Threshold, and Iggy Pop and Hulk Flash would already have killed us.

Also, what's our second choice here? I've thought a lot about Serum Powder, given how awesome it would be against most combo decks with the ability to power mulligan into Turn 0 Leyline or Turn 1 Chalice for Zero. White Splash can also be ridiculous and run Children of the Korlis, but here gets to be the main dilemma. Is this deck so ridiculously broken that it's profitable to run cards that hit only it? Or are we better off with Leyline/Pyrokinesis/Powder doing what it can to disrupt both versions of the deck?

Jak
05-02-2007, 12:14 AM
I made a thread about this, but now with flash I think it would be a lot better. I played Flash for the first time against a Stax deck and what beat me was the turn 2 trini, then chalice turn 3, followed by LD. Game 2 leyline turn 0 and then dropped chalice for one turn two after I tutored for chain of vapor. This is something goblins can easily do. Here is my proposed list of Goblin Stax.

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
11 ?

A rough list, but I think it is possible. Thoughts?

Tacosnape
05-02-2007, 01:31 AM
It's an interesting list, except that Trinisphere does absolutely nothing against Flash Combo.

Jak
05-02-2007, 11:17 AM
yeah, but it was there for other stuff too. It is very rough and just an idea to try to save goblin's ass.

Awesomator
05-02-2007, 02:03 PM
The reason I suggested Running black in the future was also for therapy. It wouldn't help to be able to cast Leyline against flash, but against other control based decks in the future, maybe. Right now, being able to cast it would only help against loam based decks, and thresh if you get really lucky(but probably not). It doesn't help much, but it doesn't hurt either. As for Gobstax, turn 2 hate on the draw is useless, and trini only buys you a turn or two to do basically nothing if you have port. If you get really lucky, you are on the play, port a land, and get tomb and chalice for 2 to resolve. Scenario two is trini on turn two, and get a chalice to res turn 3, but I wouldn't bank on either. Goblins can turn into a much better hate deck IMO, we will have to see how much of the field actully turns to flash though.

Tacosnape
05-03-2007, 01:47 AM
My current board:

4 Leyline of the Void (Maindecked)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Disenchant
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Serum Powder/Shared Triumph

Shared Triumph versus Serum Powder is an interesting clash in my brain. Shared Triumph is not only solid versus plague, but it can mess up the Disciple variant of Flash Combo by naming Wall. Serum Powder just gives me ridiculous access to immediate Leylines and turn 0 Chalices.

Awesomator
05-03-2007, 02:33 AM
LOL that's hilarious, there are probably better choices, but still.. good thinking with shared triumph. When you play triumph, the average opponent would probably let it resolve, thinking that you are a terrible player who boarded it in to name goblins and make a quicker clock against flash. REB might work a bit better and also help against the new breed of decks trying to hate hulk out which will mostly be blue. We may be able to deal with hulk between chalice for 0 and leyline, but REB will probably be a good sideboard option again. I haven't tested vs hulk with Leyline yet, just the chalice. On the play, if chalice is in hand turn 1 it will resolve about 71% of the time since they can only use force, assuming they aren't actually running the gemstone cavern build, and in that case, they would have the turn 1 kill anyway. The chalice for 0 will only buy time anyway, but will help stop PoN and tutoring through Summoners Pact. Leaving your opponent with only 4 FOW leaves room for other hate to resolve also, and if the opponent is also running daze, that probably means they aren't running enough tutors. If our opponents aren't running enough tutors it will increase our chances of winning.

Tacosnape
05-03-2007, 05:14 AM
LOL that's hilarious, there are probably better choices, but still.. good thinking with shared triumph. When you play triumph, the average opponent would probably let it resolve, thinking that you are a terrible player who boarded it in to name goblins and make a quicker clock against flash.

It worked well in testing. I actually got a win off by doing that, then dropping out a Sharpshooter after losing 12 to Marauders and shooting off all four Disciples, then all four Walls. I had no other Goblins out, so the Flash player decided to try and drop me down with Disciple aggro. More likely they'd wait and try to bounce the triumph.


The chalice for 0 will only buy time anyway, but will help stop PoN and tutoring through Summoners Pact.

My question is, if we get the Leyline of the Void in play right off the bat, does it become in our best interests to try and Chalice for a number other than 0? Chalice 0 will only stop Summoner's Pact and Lotus Petal, as Pact of Negation will have been boarded out (Unless Goblins does make a habit of trying to run REB.) Chalice for 1 would stop Chain of Vapor, as well as Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor. Chalice for 2 would be far more difficult to aim for, but the Leyline might buy enough time to make it an option.

My second question is, do White builds even want Chalice anymore? Children of Korlis not only stops the Disciple half of Flash, but it also stops Tendrils of Agony. That blows against things like GK Salvagers and Solidarity, but still. I'm not in any hurry to ditch the Chalices, just brainstorming a bit.

ForceofWill
05-03-2007, 05:27 AM
as for the new goblin decks with stax parts main I'd cut ringleaders as they get fucked up when you take out gobs and consider running blood moon. James Mankin (the faerie stompy player top 8 day 1 TMLOII) was playing a list with chalice main ancient tomb blood moon and get this 4 goblin king main. It was really wierd but he managed a top 4.

LrdMcCaffrey
05-03-2007, 09:25 AM
Has anyone thought about swapping out green for blue to run 3-4 Stifles MD? They'd give you a cheap, most likely unexpected answer to Hulk Flash, and adding 4 stifles to the LD package is enough to make just about any deck start to frown. Shut down deed too, if cards that card isn't far too slow to matter by now.

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-03-2007, 09:49 AM
Why not just MD REB? It's good against Hulk, and every deck built with the intention of beating Hulk.

I'd bet dollars to pesos that if you play anyone at the GP NOT running blue, it's cause they didn't get the memo, and thus, probably suck anyway.

b4r0n
05-03-2007, 11:42 AM
Why not just MD REB? It's good against Hulk, and every deck built with the intention of beating Hulk.

At least post-FS, Hulk will be able to use additional countermagic (Pact) to protect the Flash, while that countermagic is almost always usless against proactive hate (unless they plan on going off during their upkeep). Thus, proactive hate seems to be the stronger choice. REB might still be good in addition to such hate though.

Personally, I think the black splash has the most merit. Cabal Therapy is good in general, and Leyline of the Void has the potential to be fast enough to slow down Hulk enough for you to beat them.

Awesomator
05-03-2007, 12:21 PM
Why not just MD REB? It's good against Hulk, and every deck built with the intention of beating Hulk.

I'd bet dollars to pesos that if you play anyone at the GP NOT running blue, it's cause they didn't get the memo, and thus, probably suck anyway.


@ Spatula: Flash won't overrun the GP, FS won't be legal. If you are that worried about Flash pre FS (which I wouldn't be), Extirpate is extremely good against pre FS Hulk. The GP ready builds Rely on tutors (mystical and worldly) which put the cards on the top of their deck, it's an uncounterable way to get rid of the other three tutors and shuffle their deck once the target is on top. I would still run R/G Goblins for GP, but just an idea if you are expecting a lot of flash.

@Taco: If you get leyline, you definitely go for chalice 1, and then you will definitely win against the current hulk lists if it resolves. Chalice is probably always going to be useful in the board as extra combo hate, it helps lock down Hulk if you get that far, and is extremely solid vs tendrils. Korlis is definitely a solid option though.

@b4r0n: I agree, black will probably be best post GP. If players continue to run only chain of vapor, if we get our leyline hate into play on turn 1/0, dropping a second one into play before the first is dealt with would force them to find 2 COV which most decks don't run, or echoing truth, which they also don't currently run. Cabal Therapy is a monster on the play, on the draw it's kind of blahh but it still helps.

@LrdMcCaffrey: Pre FS blue has been talked about, but I wouldn't, you get too much out of running green. If you mean post FS, then definitely a solid option. Deed is rarely a problem, due to the fact that they run between 2-3 colors and you have four wastelands and 4 ports to hold them off plus a clock. Usually they won't have an active deed until earliest turn 4 or 5, and the deck is just too quick for it.

Tacosnape
05-03-2007, 01:36 PM
The problem with both Red Elemental Blast and Stifle is that they require you leave your mana open in a deck that wants to do that less than any other deck in existence. The best combo hate cards in Goblins are either at the 0 mana slot (preferrable) or the 2 mana slot (since Goblins has little to do at this slot), and should involve staying on the board rather than being reactive.

Awesomator
05-03-2007, 01:46 PM
Although I do agree with that in any other case, against Hulk in particular, you do need reactive cards also. The fact that REB costs 1cc is only an advantage since the deck conistantly goes off on turn 2. REB will be important because it will not only help help Protect your hate cards such as leyline, chalice, etc., but it could also affect flash if it comes in multiples and they try to combo off counter light. Having to leave mana open to cast reactive cards= bad, but against Hulk, it would be most likely necessary hate. The goal would be to slow them down enough to swarm in for the kill. In order to slow them down, you unfortunately have to leave mana open or else it most likely won't work. The deck runs 5 COV in the current build (4 mystical and 1 COV).

Shriekmaw
05-03-2007, 01:50 PM
The problem with both Red Elemental Blast and Stifle is that they require you leave your mana open in a deck that wants to do that less than any other deck in existence. The best combo hate cards in Goblins are either at the 0 mana slot (preferrable) or the 2 mana slot (since Goblins has little to do at this slot), and should involve staying on the board rather than being reactive.


I do realize that combo has been gaining popularity mostly in the form of Hulk Flash, but I would probably still run the standard Goblins build with the green splash. It would be best to focus on the sideboard for the hate against combo. Goblins will always have a tough time with it, but I can't really find any real solutions to combo outside of Pillar and Chalice in the board. I guess it would be possible to run pyroblast or REB.

I would probably take my chances with only Pillar and Chalice in the board for combo. When boarding I'm always aware that you don't want to board too much against combo b/c you still want to have a quick clock.

I would consider maybe adding 2 or 3 pyroblast into the board, but outside of that I'm not sure what else can be done, unless you want to change the deck of Vial Goblins.

Tacosnape
05-03-2007, 02:02 PM
I would probably take my chances with only Pillar and Chalice in the board for combo.

Then you're on crack. You will have a complete autoloss to a deck which should comprise anywhere from 20-40% of any given field, considering it's insanely powerful, only slightly more expensive to build than Goblins, and arguably easier to play.

Pyrostatic Pillar has to become Leyline of the Void. Here's why.

1. It stops Hulk Flash and forces Hulk Flash to bounce it.
2. Threshold will see an upsurge for awhile. Leyline of the Void will let you walk all over it.
3. Likewise, IGGy Pop is one of the few combo decks that may have a fair shot against Hulk Flash and will also see a rise. Leyline will hurt it.
4. Leyline is versatile and hurts all graveyard-based strategies, including Loam, Terrageddon, Confinement lock, Crucible of Worlds, Threshold, Flashback, Tog/Dredge, Gravestorm, Delve, and so forth.

For that, you lose a card which hurts Solidarity and sometimes Deadguy Ale-ish decks. Solidarity is already rare and is going to become even moreso with Hulk Flash around, so I'm willing to accept a 40-60 or 35-65 match there. Alternately, a few Red Elemental Blasts could be squeaked into the board in lieu of the proposed Serum Powders, as it might help against Fish, Hulk Flash, Solidarity, and Landstill.

Gekoratel
05-03-2007, 02:12 PM
Pyrostatic Pillar has to become Leyline of the Void. Here's why.

Do you believe this to be true pre-FS for those preparing for the GP or just once Future Sight becomes legal. I played against the pre-FS builds and while I believe they are strong its not really faster than Iggy Pop or Belcher. The advantage of the deck is that standard hate in the form of Pyro Pillar and Chalice is less effective against the deck.

Awesomator
05-03-2007, 02:14 PM
Do you believe this to be true pre-FS for those preparing for the GP or just once Future Sight becomes legal. I played against the pre-FS builds and while I believe they are strong its not really faster than Iggy Pop or Belcher. The advantage of the deck is that standard hate in the form of Pyro Pillar and Chalice is less effective against the deck.

Actually the pre FS build is harder to deal with for goblins than post FS. I don't think Hulk will be around enough to worry about it pre FS, and pre FS Hulk players won't do very well most likely.

Gekoratel
05-03-2007, 02:20 PM
Thanks for the advice I figured we would have a better matchup against the post-FS list because Chalice becomes a lot more relevant, its just a question of how good and popular the deck will be before FS kicks in.

Awesomator
05-03-2007, 02:25 PM
Thanks for the advice I figured we would have a better matchup against the post-FS list because Chalice becomes a lot more relevant, its just a question of how good and popular the deck will be before FS kicks in.

A majority of the players in the Hulk forum have considered playing the deck at GP. Some players have already decided to play it. I wouldn't focus my board against it, but it's almost a bye for them. Once I read the posts right before GP, I will hopefully figure out how much of the field is going to turn to Hulk Flash. Scouting early will also help, and I will have a different board for both situations. Most likely, Hulk won't be popular enough.

Shriekmaw
05-03-2007, 02:38 PM
If you want to opt for the black splash, then what are you running in the main deck? 3-4 copies of cabal therapy? I agree that the black splash is better against combo, but is it worth making all you other matchups even worse?

I agree after Future Sight becomes legal black is the way to go, but until then I would have to argue against it.

To say the field of combo will be between 20-40% is being irresponsible to all magic players.

Tacosnape
05-03-2007, 02:44 PM
Do you believe this to be true pre-FS for those preparing for the GP or just once Future Sight becomes legal. I played against the pre-FS builds and while I believe they are strong its not really faster than Iggy Pop or Belcher. The advantage of the deck is that standard hate in the form of Pyro Pillar and Chalice is less effective against the deck.

Good question. As I can't afford to go to the GP, I was meaning the comment as post-FS. I don't think Hulk Flash will be that abundant at the GP to worry about it just yet.


To say the field of combo will be between 20-40% is being irresponsible to all magic players.

I'm not saying the field of combo will be 20%-40%. I'm saying the field of this deck and this deck only will be 20%-40% in the future. That's not irresponsible. That's realistic. People who want to win first and foremost will run this deck.

And I don't mean at the GP. Hulk Flash won't crack 5% at the GP.

Awesomator
05-03-2007, 02:49 PM
I'm not saying the field of combo will be 20%-40%. I'm saying the field of this deck and this deck only will be 20%-40% in the future. That's not irresponsible. That's realistic. People who want to win first and foremost will run this deck.

And I don't mean at the GP. Hulk Flash won't crack 5% at the GP.

I completely agree. Post FS, Hulk will be too fast and too consistant, backed by 8 free MD counters. Hulk is so strong that it makes most decks unplayable. Hulk will become a large percentage of the field.

Nihil Credo
05-03-2007, 02:49 PM
Why not just MD REB? It's good against Hulk, and every deck built with the intention of beating Hulk.

I'd bet dollars to pesos that if you play anyone at the GP NOT running blue, it's cause they didn't get the memo, and thus, probably suck anyway.



For the Hulk Flash metagame, there's a card that will improve this deck.

However, if you play this deck in the Hulk Flash metagame, you suck anyway.

Shriekmaw
05-03-2007, 02:51 PM
And I don't mean at the GP. Hulk Flash won't crack 5% at the GP.



Okay, I just wanted to clarify about the deck in regards to the GP. I think a lot of people want to focus on what will win at the GP. Later on, we can discuss the proper build of Goblins post Future Sight.

Tacosnape
05-03-2007, 05:09 PM
Then said people are welcome to ignore my posts. I'm not going to be told by you not to post ideas that extend beyond one tournament.

Boarding the Leylines at the GP isn't an awful idea anyway. There will be a lot of Threshold and possibly more Ill-Gotten Gains combo than you'd expect. Not to mention that yes, some people are going to take Hulk Flash to the GP. And there's going to be Life from the Loam control. And Survival. And so on and so on.

Shriekmaw
05-03-2007, 05:32 PM
Then said people are welcome to ignore my posts. I'm not going to be told by you not to post ideas that extend beyond one tournament.

Boarding the Leylines at the GP isn't an awful idea anyway. There will be a lot of Threshold and possibly more Ill-Gotten Gains combo than you'd expect. Not to mention that yes, some people are going to take Hulk Flash to the GP. And there's going to be Life from the Loam control. And Survival. And so on and so on.


Lets get cracking with some ideas on the black splash. What would you main deck in Goblins and what would your sideboard look like?

Zach Tartell
05-03-2007, 05:47 PM
Bennett Toms, the RB goblins player who beat me at the GAGG had 3 cabal therapies main, and two Dranlu's blessing (or whatever - gives Goblins +1/+1 for something like 1RB or 2RB). I think 4 therapies main is good, and perhaps some duresses, but I think it'd important to try and jsut race game 1 against combo, then win game 2. Or 2 and 3, if it's like belcher.

The problem is that if you have too many hate cards mained, it makes your ringleaders teh suk.

sammiel
05-03-2007, 06:38 PM
if, and thats a really big IF, but if we get this combo winter that everyone's raving about, would putting ringleaders to the side be worth it? since they are pretty much ass in combo matchups anyway.

Shriekmaw
05-03-2007, 07:19 PM
Bennett Toms, the RB goblins player who beat me at the GAGG had 3 cabal therapies main, and two Dranlu's blessing (or whatever - gives Goblins +1/+1 for something like 1RB or 2RB). I think 4 therapies main is good, and perhaps some duresses, but I think it'd important to try and jsut race game 1 against combo, then win game 2. Or 2 and 3, if it's like belcher.

The problem is that if you have too many hate cards mained, it makes your ringleaders teh suk.


I saw the list where he ran the 3 main deck therapies and have Dranlu's Crusade in the board for BR1 that turns all your creatures into zombies plus there normal type and gives them +1/+1. I do really like the crusade in the board if you go with the black splash.

I would almost think about running the full 4 therapies main deck and maybe consider adding a few duress in the board just for combo. I think therapy is enough if you stay with the 4 pillar and 4 chalice in the board to fight combo decks. I would also play Leyline of the Void in the board.

You don't want to overload the deck with hate cards, but therapy is really good by having the ability to easily flash it back.

Tacosnape
05-03-2007, 07:22 PM
Alternately, since we can't seem to find a single card that hates on every combo in existence, I've thought about going down to 28-29 Goblins, maindecking some combination of an artifact/enchantment removal card and Pyrokinesis, and then having a 15-card Combo-beating sideboard with anything ranging from Leyline to Chalice to Serum Powder to REB to Children of Korlis to Pithing Needle to Engineered Explosives.

Sims
05-03-2007, 07:40 PM
It seems as though the deck is almost devolving... Without hate, the deck just isn't fast enough to stop some of the current combos in the format... So we run into the problem that it's hard to fit this main deck hate without hurting the "Goblin-core." So maybe we should think a little abstractly... We know certain cards in the deck are bad in the combo matches, Ringleader has been mentioned... What about the concept, that if this true combo-winter happens (again the If), of devolving the deck to a Goblin Sligh frame... reducing the utility Goblins and leaving the Core-Goblins in, and then using what were typically burn slots for disruption? It slows the potential kill, but it allows more maindeck slots for disruption along the lines of Duress and Therapies. I guess the biggest question would be, is the reduced clock and consistency worth the added disruption? The deck could still get the random Lackey -> Warchief -> double Piledriver win.... So it's not like it will completely lack explosiveness.

Might be worth a shot.

Tacosnape
05-03-2007, 09:21 PM
I don't think it's so much that the deck is devolving as it is that Hulk Flash has provided an impossible scenario of there being a full set of combo decks that don't succumb to the same hate cards. Hulk Flash being as broken as it is, we'd need eight to twelve cards dedicated solely to stopping it to have even an outside chance. And if we do that, we lose to all other combo decks.

With any reasonable sanity, Flash will get banned. Goblins remains a high level deck in Legacy if this is so. If not, it's pretty much a dead one. And if Goblins goes, then all the even more annoying decks its kept in check start crawling out of the woodwork.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that if Flash remains unbanned, some major tournament (if not several) in the near future will end without a single red card or red mana symbol being in the top eight. Red is a nonexistant color in a Hulk Flash meta, and Goblins is as red as decks come.

Shriekmaw
05-04-2007, 01:21 PM
I

With any reasonable sanity, Flash will get banned. Goblins remains a high level deck in Legacy if this is so. If not, it's pretty much a dead one. And if Goblins goes, then all the even more annoying decks its kept in check start crawling out of the woodwork.



I believe we will see this deck go away after June 1st, when Wizards updates their ban and restricted lists. If this goes unbanned, I don't see Goblins as being that good in the format like it once was. This would be a bad idea, because it would allow a lot of decks to become more popular, just for the simply fact that Goblins wouldn't be played that much.

I would imagine that a lot of Legacy players would not want a format where you either have to play Combo or something that beats Combo (Aggro/Control) or you basically have no chance of winning regularly in this format.

Tacosnape
05-04-2007, 02:38 PM
I believe we will see this deck go away after June 1st, when Wizards updates their ban and restricted lists. If this goes unbanned, I don't see Goblins as being that good in the format like it once was. This would be a bad idea, because it would allow a lot of decks to become more popular, just for the simply fact that Goblins wouldn't be played that much.

I would imagine that a lot of Legacy players would not want a format where you either have to play Combo or something that beats Combo (Aggro/Control) or you basically have no chance of winning regularly in this format.

QFT. I think that's the first thing you've ever said that I completely agree with. I certainly don't want that sort of a format. I like playing in a "Tier 2" format where any one of 30+ decks can win a tournament. To me, that's what separates Legacy from any other format and makes it the most fun.

Goblins would be dead. As would the entire color of Red. Magic would become essentially 4 colors if Flash remained legal.

Bane of the Living
05-05-2007, 11:39 AM
Seriously stop talking about whether or not HF will bite the dust. It has nothing to do with the current development of goblins since we know Flash is absolutely legal for GP. Yes people are gonna play this deck. I know alot of us on the source are abandoning our pet decks to rock the all star. After all if you cant beat them join them right? Here is my projected outlook on the GP..

Hulk Flash 10-15%
Goblins 15-20%
Thresh 15-20%
Solidarity 5-10%
Landstill 5-10%
Tendrils 5%
Iggy Pop 5-10%
Golden Grahams 2%
Loam Control 2%
Stax 2%
Enchantress 2%
Stompy Varients/Homebrews 5-10%
Red Death//Deadguy Ale 5-10%
Extended.dec 10%
Affinity//AfFOWnity 5%
Land.dec 2%

Given this meta Id certainly abandon Green Goblins and pick up some Therapies. Blue decks will be all over the place which Therapy is still great against. Here's the list Id go with were I to bring gobs..

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
5 Mountain
4 Rishadin Port
4 Wasteland

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshall
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Ringleader
2 SGC

SB
2 Goblin Ringleader
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 ?

I really like War Marshall in the deck as a two drop. Against combo he helps speed the clock a great deal when seen with Warcheif and Piledriver. Hes the perfect 2 drop after a turn one Therapy. I cut down on Ringleaders since your taking gobs out for therapy and adding even more non gobs post board. The extras are in the board to battle Thresh the mirror and landstill. Im not sure about maindecking Leyline because therapy seems to be a better card against more matchups.

Bardu
05-05-2007, 01:14 PM
Do we really need Pyrokinesis SB in a Hulk Flash dominated meta? Goblins will hardly be the DTB. Duress and/or Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast would work well against both HF and the blue decks built to beat it.

Since we are splashing black, we lose an answer to Plague. I think at least 2 Patron of the Akki would be helpful too.

calosso
05-05-2007, 01:24 PM
Do we really need Pyrokinesis SB in a Hulk Flash dominated meta? Goblins will hardly be the DTB. Duress and/or Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast would work well against both HF and the blue decks built to beat it.

Since we are splashing black, we lose an answer to Plague. I think at least 2 Patron of the Akki would be helpful too.

Umm, Goblins may lose to Hulk Flash but it certainly does not lose to the fish decks/landstill decks that are supposed to beat them (which they don't).
Since wasteland isn't to dominant in the format any more I think it should be a 3 color deck so goblins can have an answer to plague.

Zach Tartell
05-05-2007, 01:27 PM
dranlu's crusade FTW. Solved.

Jak
05-05-2007, 04:09 PM
I wouldn't cut ringleaders out of the main.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishdan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
5 Mountain

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 SGC

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Duress

Bane of the Living
05-05-2007, 06:52 PM
Anyone intending on playing Cabal Therapy should be pushing the inclusion of War Marshall. I really cant stress that enough. The fundemental problem with including Cabal Therapy, altho we went over this a couple pages ago, is your sacrificing board position for therapy. You need a better way to fuel the flashback than rely on having Fanatic or Matron.

The deck has a sweet spot in the 2cc that we all exploit in the sb. There are Chalice and Pillar to go alongside drivers 2 drop. Setting yourself up for flashbacked therapy with warmarshall leaves you will 2 1/1's on turn 2. Thats so much more damage than playing therapy into saccing driver/fanatic ect.

You dont want to let go of any goblins when playing therapy or you risk shaving turns off your life.

Tacosnape
05-06-2007, 05:10 AM
Assuming HF stays legal past FS and the Grand Prix, I think a Mono-Red build should be looked at. Seriously. Goblins has the potential to absolutely slaughter every deck in existence that's made to beat Hulk Flash, and could possibly develop something as good as a 40-60 against Hulk without a color splash. The main reason I'm advocating the de-splashing is that everything in existence is going to start running Stifle, and I suddenly don't like fetchlands in here much. And a lot of decks will cut Plague for Hulk hate.

Here's the list I've been testing:

14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB:
4 Serum Powder
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

The maindecked Leylines have been amazing. It's crippling against Threshold and Iggy Pop, both of which stand to see fair play. Red Death loses its Rotting Giants if you get one out, which are often a large problem for Goblins. You still have the Pyrokinesis for pitch removal. REB helps against all the blue-based aggro control -and- Hulk Flash, as well as Landstill and Solidarity. Chalice will assist across the board and with alternate combo decks like TES. And Serum Powder lets you dig into those immediate Chalices/Leylines.

The gamble of this deck, of course, is that Goblin hate dies down once Hulk Flash takes over, because it has almost no resiliency at all to it. However, I think it's a fantastic deck to start working on once the format shifts to Flash hate and complete anti-goblins decks disappear.

This is also an insanely inexpensive deck to build.

LrdMcCaffrey
05-06-2007, 05:51 AM
Is it just me or will Goblins never die. I geuss Wizards knew what they were talking about when they made Squee immortal. No matter what they do, some form of little ugly red men is still viable.

EDIT for actual substance: In the versions with CotV SB, could Simian Spirit Guide see some play? Not only would he be solid for powering out a turn 1 Chalice, but turn 1 Lackey/Vial + Waste seems like the tempo play to end all tempo plays. Problem would be the card disadvantage and the prominent not-Gobliness.

Hanni
05-06-2007, 07:56 AM
Tacosnape, you're going to want more SCG's so that the likelihood (sp?) of going off on turns 3-4 increases... you really want to be able to maintain the fast clock.

I'd consider looking at dropping a Fanatic and/or a Gempalm, since you'll probably need those less out of everything else.

Tacosnape
05-06-2007, 11:55 AM
Tacosnape, you're going to want more SCG's so that the likelihood (sp?) of going off on turns 3-4 increases... you really want to be able to maintain the fast clock.

I'd consider looking at dropping a Fanatic and/or a Gempalm, since you'll probably need those less out of everything else.

That's probably not a bad idea.

Gekoratel
05-06-2007, 10:14 PM
Here is a list of Goblins that I'm thinking about running at the GP need to put in some testing with the sideboard and see how well the mana-base works out. As Flash is getting pushed to the forefront I don't think there are going to be that many Wasteland decks so I agree with Colasso that 3c Goblins is a better choice for the GP.

Greedy Goblins
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Mountain

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Leyline of the Void

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Tin Street Hooligan

It pained me to cut the 3rd Siege-Gang but there was nothing else I could think of removing to fit the Leylines MD.

I played at the Rochester GPT with Rg Goblins with MD Leyline and they were really good but drawing them with absolutely no way to cast them was annoying. I played against Flash twice losing 1-2 and winning 2-0 other than that I played against; UBW Fish, MUC, and 4c Threshold. I went 4-1 in the Swiss and lost to Aluren in the T8.

Awesomator
05-06-2007, 10:29 PM
The build is decent, similar to something I've been testing against Hulk for when FS is legal. Hulk is definitely going to be played, but it won't be a ridiculous percentage of the field. Although in my post FS build I MD Leyline, I would only suggest running therapies in the main and leyline in the board. Therapy gives you a shot vs Flash, but Leyline is obviously better against it. You don't want to make your other matchups worse in the process though. I've never really agreed with therapy in goblins, but Hulk is everywhere online, and there is a good chance you be paired against a couple combo decks over the course of the GP. Cabal Therapy slows you down, but it also helps against plague, silver knight, and all the cards we really don't like to see. If Hulk appears to be a larger percentage of the field, then Rgb gobs is definitely the best choice.

Gekoratel
05-06-2007, 10:58 PM
Honestly from what I've been hearing and seeing in the more recent GPT's Flash is very popular so I'm expecting it to be around 15-20% of the field at the GP. That along with Thresh getting better and more popular due to Flash makes the MD Leylines very strong.

But I suppose MD Therapies would help in that match and are a little more versatile. I was just really impressed by Leyline and have a feeling it will be pretty strong at the GP as well.

Awesomator
05-06-2007, 11:18 PM
I am expecting between probably 10%-15%, probably won't be more than that. Leyline is incredible vs thresh, 43 land, columbus confinement, Iggy pop, TES, and a ton of other decks. Boarding Leyline is definitely justified. Now that hulk is around, Leyline is actually better than Pillar IMO. Like you said Versatility is important, if the craze for hulk gets out of hand, which I doubt it, then MD Leylines would work. Scouting before the day of the GP is important, and last minute tweaks should usually be made. Most players are waiting until FS, but it is possible that a lot of players will turn to hulk last minute out of fear of the deck, but if people think of Hulk Flash as the DTB, then most people will play decks that hate it, which are good matchups for us.

Tacosnape
05-10-2007, 06:11 PM
This may have nothing to do with Flash, but I was so amused by it I had to bring it up. IBA suggests Brightstone Ritual as a bizarre answer to Empty the Warrens, so I started testing it against some ETW tossing decks. Here's one of my best results ever and quite possibly the best turn one in the history of Vial Goblins:

Opponent: Turn one, ridiculous shit, 16 ETW Tokens:

Me: (Opening Hand: Plateau, Wasteland, Brightstone Ritual, Brightstone Ritual, Warchief, Ringleader, Matron)

-Plateau, Ritual for 16, Warchief, Ringleader (10 floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Ringleader, Gempalm, Piledriver.)
-Ringleader (7 Floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Matron, Matron, Sharpshooter, Piledriver. Sweet!)
-Matron for Ringleader, Piledriver, Ringleader (1 Floating).
-(Ringleader hits Lackey, SGC)
-Brightstone Ritual for 22, Piledriver, Matron for Matron, Matron for Driver, Matron for Driver, Piledriver, Piledriver, Sharpshooter, Lackey, Gempalm, Siege-Gang (5 Floating.)
-Sharpshooter off all tokens.
-Mana Burn for 5.
-Swing for 179.

Awesomator
05-10-2007, 09:36 PM
This may have nothing to do with Flash, but I was so amused by it I had to bring it up. IBA suggests Brightstone Ritual as a bizarre answer to Empty the Warrens, so I started testing it against some ETW tossing decks. Here's one of my best results ever and quite possibly the best turn one in the history of Vial Goblins:

Opponent: Turn one, ridiculous shit, 16 ETW Tokens:

Me: (Opening Hand: Plateau, Wasteland, Brightstone Ritual, Brightstone Ritual, Warchief, Ringleader, Matron)

-Plateau, Ritual for 16, Warchief, Ringleader (10 floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Ringleader, Gempalm, Piledriver.)
-Ringleader (7 Floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Matron, Matron, Sharpshooter, Piledriver. Sweet!)
-Matron for Ringleader, Piledriver, Ringleader (1 Floating).
-(Ringleader hits Lackey, SGC)
-Brightstone Ritual for 22, Piledriver, Matron for Matron, Matron for Driver, Matron for Driver, Piledriver, Piledriver, Sharpshooter, Lackey, Gempalm, Siege-Gang (5 Floating.)
-Sharpshooter off all tokens.
-Mana Burn for 5.
-Swing for 179.

LOL best goblin post ever

Guy I Don't Know
05-12-2007, 11:16 AM
You're my hero!

Nihil Credo
05-12-2007, 11:38 AM
OMG. I'm going to keep a Brightstone Ritual in my pants for a month after that.

thefreakaccident
05-13-2007, 02:58 AM
This may have nothing to do with Flash, but I was so amused by it I had to bring it up. IBA suggests Brightstone Ritual as a bizarre answer to Empty the Warrens, so I started testing it against some ETW tossing decks. Here's one of my best results ever and quite possibly the best turn one in the history of Vial Goblins:

Opponent: Turn one, ridiculous shit, 16 ETW Tokens:

Me: (Opening Hand: Plateau, Wasteland, Brightstone Ritual, Brightstone Ritual, Warchief, Ringleader, Matron)

-Plateau, Ritual for 16, Warchief, Ringleader (10 floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Ringleader, Gempalm, Piledriver.)
-Ringleader (7 Floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Matron, Matron, Sharpshooter, Piledriver. Sweet!)
-Matron for Ringleader, Piledriver, Ringleader (1 Floating).
-(Ringleader hits Lackey, SGC)
-Brightstone Ritual for 22, Piledriver, Matron for Matron, Matron for Driver, Matron for Driver, Piledriver, Piledriver, Sharpshooter, Lackey, Gempalm, Siege-Gang (5 Floating.)
-Sharpshooter off all tokens.
-Mana Burn for 5.
-Swing for 179.


I would have to argue that that is the best turn one in the history of turn 1s... and from my knowledge there have been a lot of turn ones....


Super secret tech FTW!!!!

Citrus-God
05-14-2007, 01:36 AM
I considered tested this build with the rise of Hulk Flash...


// Mana 22
3 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
3 Badlands


// Creatures 26
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warcheif
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incenerator
2 Siege Gang Commander


// Spells 12
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 AEther Vial


// Sideboard 15
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Extirpate
3 Dralnu's Crusade

Yes, it's call Flash hate.... *sigh....

REBs are good though. I liked them a lot against Fish. It kills Meddling Mage, and firing them at cantrips slow them down so much.

Tacosnape
05-14-2007, 02:15 AM
The sad part is that build really isn't all that bad. I'm not sure that I wouldn't reverse the 8 maindeck blasts for maindeck Duress/Therapy, and I think I'd want Leyline in there somewhere, but yeah. Goblins is going to have to adapt to being more aggro-control if it wants to live in the Flash meta.

264505
05-14-2007, 08:58 PM
The only problem I see with running the 8 REBs is that youve now become reactive instead of procative. Dropping the leyline allows you to play the game out as normal, but if you dont have that chrome mox you cant drop your lackey for fear of them going off. Personally, I thing maindeck leyline is the way to go, it gives a little more reach game 1 than the REBs because its not %100 irrelevant in matches like Pikula (Grunts), Red Death (Giants) and Iggy pop,

Gekoratel
05-15-2007, 11:31 AM
Leylines are a very strong card especially against Flash but I think the problem is that if you don't know what your opponent is playing then Leyline goes down in value. When your playing in smaller local events Leyline is awesome because you know what most people are playing and can evaluate your opening hands accordingly. At a large event like the GP your not gonna know if the questionable 7 with Leyline is better or worse than a 6 card hand.

I've tested the flash matchup quite a bit and you need to mulligan into Leyline or maybe hands that turn 3 on the play. With this strategy I'm about 40-60 pre-board against Jack Flash which isn't awful. But G1 at the GP unless I know what my opponent is plaing I can't mulligan accordingly which is the most important part of the flash matchup. For anyone playing Leyline MD I highly recommend that you scout between rounds.

Shriekmaw
05-15-2007, 11:43 AM
I know early on in any constructed GP, it is very difficult to scout since there are like 500 players. You also have to factor in the players that have byes which didn't play in rounds 1-3. I do think scouting gets a little easier when your at the higher tables, but that is usually in the later stages of the GP on day 1 at least.

I think Leyline is a very strong choice for the main deck, because I expect a lot of Fish and Threshold decks there just to beat Hulk Flash. If Vial Goblins can find these matchups, then I can see it getting into Day 2 and possibly having a run. So much of how well your deck does depends on the matchups that you receive during your rounds at the GP.

aTn
05-15-2007, 01:28 PM
I'd consider looking at dropping a Fanatic and/or a Gempalm, since you'll probably need those less out of everything else.

For the GP, I'd probably not drop a Fanatic because of the (probably) high number of UWb-Fish present (eat that Bob).

Awesomator
05-15-2007, 01:52 PM
I know early on in any constructed GP, it is very difficult to scout since there are like 500 players. You also have to factor in the players that have byes which didn't play in rounds 1-3. I do think scouting gets a little easier when your at the higher tables, but that is usually in the later stages of the GP on day 1 at least.

I think Leyline is a very strong choice for the main deck, because I expect a lot of Fish and Threshold decks there just to beat Hulk Flash. If Vial Goblins can find these matchups, then I can see it getting into Day 2 and possibly having a run. So much of how well your deck does depends on the matchups that you receive during your rounds at the GP.

You scout at the GPT the day before. With the new meta, Leyline will most likely be an okayMD Choice, however, like Gekoratel said, you have no idea what you're up against, and need it in your opener. You dont want to have to mull down to 5 or 6 only to find out that you're playing a mirror match, and you have 4-5 useful cards in hand. The meta will probably be 15-20% Flash, 35-45% Thresh/Fish/Counter Control, 35-50% everything else. I wouldn't MD REB or anything since Thresh and Fish are already good matchups and Hulk can be dealt with. Anti-American, your deck is going to hate the hell out of Hulk Flash, but you have 8 MD dead cards against a lot of decks in the format, and that's dangerous.

Shriekmaw
05-15-2007, 03:34 PM
You scout at the GPT the day before. With the new meta, Leyline will most likely be an okayMD Choice, however, like Gekoratel said, you have no idea what you're up against, and need it in your opener. You dont want to have to mull down to 5 or 6 only to find out that you're playing a mirror match, and you have 4-5 useful cards in hand. The meta will probably be 15-20% Flash, 35-45% Thresh/Fish/Counter Control, 35-50% everything else. I wouldn't MD REB or anything since Thresh and Fish are already good matchups and Hulk can be dealt with. Anti-American, your deck is going to hate the hell out of Hulk Flash, but you have 8 MD dead cards against a lot of decks in the format, and that's dangerous.



You can scout all you want at the Trials the day before, but that still doesn't tell you what you will be playing against. You can have a pretty good idea on how many people with play deck x or deck y, but it is doesn't answer Jeff's original question on when to do decide if your hand is good just because it has a leyline in it.

I think you have to evaluate your hand with goblins and then decide if its good enough or not to keep. You don't want to always keep a hand just because it has a Leyline in it.

Awesomator
05-15-2007, 03:40 PM
I was actually responding to you saying that it's tough to scout at the GP because so many players have byes.

264505
05-15-2007, 08:02 PM
Well, i wouldn't mulligan out of a good 7 unless I knew I was up against flash, a turn 3 or 4 draw with goblins is usually good enough to beat most decks.

Shriekmaw
05-16-2007, 01:22 PM
Well, i wouldn't mulligan out of a good 7 unless I knew I was up against flash, a turn 3 or 4 draw with goblins is usually good enough to beat most decks.



I agree, sometimes when you keep a hand that can win on turn 3 or 4 it does beat flash every once in a while. By having some additional disruption in your board, at least that should give you a fighting chance against flash for the most part.

Awesomator
05-16-2007, 01:26 PM
I also agree, but for Leyline to be good against Thresh, it has to be in your opener also. If Leyline isn't in your opener, you are drawing 4 dead cards. I like Cabal Therapy in the MD and Leyline in the board. If you are planning on keeping a lot of 7 card hands, you only get Leyline 40% of the time.

264505
05-16-2007, 02:04 PM
Cabal therapy is good, but i dont like the whole prospect of whiffing with the card, especially when the blue players all run brainstorm to protect the important cards. It just seems to me like it misses too much and ends up losng you card advantage to flash it back to hit a card. I also dont like the prospect of blind guessing with it. That card IMHO is better out of the board or main in a deck like Affinity that can play it and flash it back turn 1.

umbowta
05-16-2007, 03:03 PM
Goblins has the potential to absolutely slaughter every deck in existence that's made to beat Hulk Flash, and could possibly develop something as good as a 40-60 against Hulk without a color splash.

14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB:
4 Serum Powder
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast


The gamble of this deck, of course, is that Goblin hate dies down once Hulk Flash takes over...

I like. Have you tried Chrome Mox at all? It would seem to be an awesome accellerant and would make use of those extra Leylines. Also, I agree with the earlier call to up the SGC's to 3.

Maybe
-4 Mountain
-1 Gempalm
+4 C-Mox
+1 SGC

Awesomator
05-16-2007, 03:18 PM
Cabal therapy is good, but i dont like the whole prospect of whiffing with the card, especially when the blue players all run brainstorm to protect the important cards. It just seems to me like it misses too much and ends up losng you card advantage to flash it back to hit a card. I also dont like the prospect of blind guessing with it. That card IMHO is better out of the board or main in a deck like Affinity that can play it and flash it back turn 1.

I agree, and have always been against playing the card until Hulk came out. Some MD disruption is necessary now, or you're going to have a horrendous matchup 1/5 of the entire tournament.

Gekoratel
05-21-2007, 01:18 AM
In case anyone is interested I ran the Greedy Goblins list that I posted here a week or so back to an 11th place finish. I think it was a pretty good metagame call and as I predicated the only tough part was putting people on decks so I could evaluate the strength of Leyline etc. Here were my matchups:

Day1
R1: Bye
R2: W, Nicol Bolas reanimator - some janky Shallow Grave 2 card combo
R3: W, GW Stax - had Heirarch, 3sphere, tangle wire, crucible and the 2 mana lands
R4: L, Mirror
R5: W, I have the worst memory of anyone can't remember this opponent but I want to say it was Fish
R6: W, UGw Thresh
R7: W, Mirror
R8: L, Mirror
R9: W, Landstill - played by the Canadian master shockwave

So day 1 I managed to totally avoid Flash, even though I tweaked my deck to have a shot I was more than happy to avoid that matchup.

Day2
R10: L, Midrange Rock
R11: W, Dark Boros
R12: W, Burn
R13: W, Flash
R14: W, UGr Thresh
R15: W, UBw Fish

As a whole I would say my finish was primarily due to good matchups but I'm happy that I ran a version that had a shot against one of the predominant decks in the field. I probably could have won my R10 but I made a misplay/judgement call that ended up costing me the match.

Congrats to everyone that made D2, it was nice to see the Virginia and Syracuse guys beause it will probably be a long time until I play Legacy again.

Awesomator
05-21-2007, 01:21 AM
In case anyone is interested I ran the Greedy Goblins list that I posted here a week or so back to an 11th place finish. I think it was a pretty good metagame call and as I predicated the only tough part was putting people on decks so I could evaluate the strength of Leyline etc. Here were my matchups:

Day1
R1: Bye
R2: W, Nicol Bolas reanimator - some janky Shallow Grave 2 card combo
R3: W, GW Stax - had Heirarch, 3sphere, tangle wire, crucible and the 2 mana lands
R4: L, Mirror
R5: W, I have the worst memory of anyone can't remember this opponent but I want to say it was Fish
R6: W, UGw Thresh
R7: W, Mirror
R8: L, Mirror
R9: W, Landstill - played by the Canadian master shockwave

So day 1 I managed to totally avoid Flash, even though I tweaked my deck to have a shot I was more than happy to avoid that matchup.

Day2
R10: L, Midrange Rock
R11: W, Dark Boros
R12: W, Burn
R13: W, Flash
R14: W, UGr Thresh
R15: W, UBw Fish

As a whole I would say my finish was primarily due to good matchups but I'm happy that I ran a version that had a shot against one of the predominant decks in the field. I probably could have won my R10 but I made a misplay/judgement call that ended up costing me the match.

Congrats to everyone that made D2, it was nice to see the Virginia and Syracuse guys beause it will probably be a long time until I play Legacy again.

Ohh man wish I could have gone to the GP. Nice work though and a good meta call since Fish was everywhere. Was rooting for you when I heard you were running Goblins. Nice finish and good job winning out.

Tacosnape
05-21-2007, 03:02 AM
Nice job on your finish, Gekoratel!

Okay, so, this may have nothing to do with the GP, but we started screwing around with a post-FS RG Goblins list running 4 Dryad Arbor.

Being able to Vial out a Dryad Arbor EOT on turn one results in some insanely fast shit. It gives you the Chrome Mox speed acceleration without the card loss. It also gives you a tiny threat underneath double Plague.

264505
05-22-2007, 12:13 AM
The question is what do you drop for it?

If you take out lands then you lose red sources and are there any creatures that goblins can drop without hurting other matchups?

It also seems weak without the vial.

Tacosnape
05-22-2007, 12:27 AM
You take out one Goblin and three lands, upping your land count to 24. I took out a Taiga, a Waste, and a Port just to try it out.

It's not really all that bad outside of Vial. It's a fairly decent turn 2 drop when you don't have much else to do on that turn. It makes you a little more vulnerable to mana hate though.

EDIT: I should clarify this. I'm not recommending Dryad Arbor in a format where Flash is banned and Goblins returns to being a deck in everyone's crosshairs. But in a combo-prevalent format where there won't be a shit-ton of creature hate, I like it. Most of what you contend with here is either Plague (And they won't Plague for Dryad Arbor), or STP.

Phantom
05-22-2007, 12:29 AM
I agree that it sounds nutty, but might fall under the danger of cool things. I mean, when Goblins has Aether Vial out first turn, Goblins has Aether Vial out first turn. Accelerating into a Warchief is nice, but you were in a good spot anyway.

Considering you'd only get to use both in that fashion ~25% of games, Chrome Mox seems a better call.

I could definitely see it in a build of Goblins running Jitte.

Edit: @Taco: You KNOW that third plague is naming Forest!

Jak
05-26-2007, 04:58 AM
Since I hope and think flash will get the axe, how do you think goblins will survive when combo like CRET belcher and TES are back? They are not vulnerable to Leyline so we really have no answer besides discard. Counters are an option, but you don't want to hold back in an aggro deck for counter mana. What do you guys think is a good build/sideboard?

Jaynel
05-26-2007, 11:13 AM
Chalice of the Void could easily find its way maindeck if combo becomes prevalent.

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-27-2007, 01:02 AM
Since I hope and think flash will get the axe, how do you think goblins will survive when combo like CRET belcher and TES are back? They are not vulnerable to Leyline so we really have no answer besides discard. Counters are an option, but you don't want to hold back in an aggro deck for counter mana. What do you guys think is a good build/sideboard?

CotV?

troopatroop
05-27-2007, 01:05 AM
Once Flash get's banned (which is undoubtable will), does this look like an opportunity for goblins to destroy the hate decks that people will still be playing?

Basically what I'm saying, How long will it take for people to revert back to the old Goblins infested format?

Volt
05-27-2007, 01:07 AM
Once Flash get's banned (which is undoubtable will), does this look like an opportunity for goblins to destroy the hate decks that people will still be playing?

Basically what I'm saying, How long will it take for people to revert back to the old Goblins infested format?

Like, one day.

DeathwingZERO
05-27-2007, 02:26 AM
I'd have to agree. I haven't seen an anti-flash deck that hasn't rolled to Goblins yet. I know that's the deck I'm going back to once Flash gets axed. People will still be behind on that memo for a little bit I'm sure, but they'll catch on quick. I just hope the rest of the decks show up again too.

Jak
05-27-2007, 07:03 PM
Well chalice sometimes is to slow for decks like SI and Belcher. I am sure a lot of people are going to start running more TES and belcher, so just wondering what would happen.

264505
05-29-2007, 10:38 AM
Turn 1 Chalice at 0 is the way to go if you're after turning off LED, Chrome mox and lotus petal, but chalilice at 1 is a lot stronger when dealing with decks like SI and belcher, but it is too slow a lot of times. Pyrostatic pillar is also a combo option but it usually doesnt deal enough damage to matter.

ASSASSIN
05-29-2007, 07:37 PM
Versus combo calice is really pretty.

VS belcher you can put it in 0 or 1 and it is the better solution with the "new" version with ETW.

VS IGG a calice in 0 cut LED, petal and the U pact. If he begin and put all artifact directly in the table you can put in with one counter and block DR is enjoy too.

I don't test VS TES or other black storm because they are not played in france but I think it is not bad.

VS high tide a calice in 1 kill the deck if he don't use cunning wish for tutorise a ET. He give time for kill or put a pyrostatic pillar.

VS burn a calice in 1 suck because he can't play mogg fanatic, lightning bolt, lava spike, chain lightning and other lava spiker/spark elemental... :D

VS salvager I see in forums calice in 1 is good. In theory he block the first combo and block pyrite spellbomb, innocent blood, CR, DR. But after test it is not usitly. But pyrostatic pillar is really good :)

VS aluren forget calice, take pillar too

After test I'm sure it is, before hulk flash, calice/pillar with 2 REB it is the better response against combo.

and VS hulk ? I don't test but in 0 or 1 (in 2 it is a dream :frown: ) he can help, it is sure. But other card in an goblin SB help too VS it. pyrokinesis in karmic and carrion feeder broke the combo but put an immortal 6/6 in game. needle in kiki, tormod's in response of the ability of the first death, a REB in flash.


And it is not goblin why death with the new degenerated combo, it is all the other aggro, all the combo powerless.

And play leyline B in MD is really sad. And with good version in game one we have nothing for help it so HF tutor a bounce and win "only" in the turn 3.

Tacosnape
05-29-2007, 07:56 PM
I don't test VS TES or other black storm because they are not played in france but I think it is not bad.

VS salvager I see in forums calice in 1 is good. In theory he block the first combo and block pyrite spellbomb, innocent blood, CR, DR. But after test it is not usitly. But pyrostatic pillar is really good :)

VS aluren forget calice, take pillar too


Chalice is solid against TES. You generally play it for 0 and 2 and skip 1, barring a few circumstances. (TES players, correct me if I'm way off base here.)

Against Salvagers, coming from a long time player of both Goblins -and- Salvagers, Chalice for 1 is the wrong strategy. Chalice for 0 is much faster and shuts the combo off completely, as it denies them the ability to use Lion's Eye Diamond. Plus, if you play the white splash, it still lets you play Swords to Plowshares.

Chalice for 2 can annoy Aluren fairly well (Aluren players, correct me if I'm way off base here), -if- you can get it off before they combo out on you. It stops Harpy replays pretty nicely. Pillar is indeed better here.

ASSASSIN
05-30-2007, 02:31 PM
Against Salvagers, coming from a long time player of both Goblins -and- Salvagers, Chalice for 1 is the wrong strategy. Chalice for 0 is much faster and shuts the combo off completely, as it denies them the ability to use Lion's Eye Diamond. Plus, if you play the white splash, it still lets you play Swords to Plowshares.

Chalice for 2 can annoy Aluren fairly well (Aluren players, correct me if I'm way off base here), -if- you can get it off before they combo out on you. It stops Harpy replays pretty nicely. Pillar is indeed better here.
Salvager is a deck why regulary side darksteel colossus and change the combo. So side calice and put it in 0 if your opponant don't keep LED is stupid. calice in 1 block the combo with pyrite and element of control.

Calice in 2 is possible when you play a stack or a Faerie Stompy but with goblin and 21 lands is not the solution against aluren and her kill in turn 3/4.

Tacosnape
05-30-2007, 03:58 PM
Salvager is a deck why regulary side darksteel colossus and change the combo. So side calice and put it in 0 if your opponant don't keep LED is stupid. calice in 1 block the combo with pyrite and element of control.


(You know, I don't really know why I'm arguing in this point since I long cut Chalice from my Goblin deck for better tech, but still)

Chalice for 0 is always the right play against Salvagers whether they kept the combo in or switched it out for Darksteel Colossus. For several reasons:

1. You don't know whether they kept the combo in or not. You're in a lot better shape boarding it in to be safe.

2. Good players won't cut all of their Lion's Eye Diamonds. They'll cut their Salvagers for the DSC's, and then maybe cut LED's for Infest, if they're one of the bad versions of Salvagers that runs Infest.

3. Good players rarely cut their combo against Vial Goblins in the first place. It's easier to Deed away their block pieces than to come through with DSC. Plus, as long as you don't show them a Taiga or Tin-Street in game 1, they won't know you aren't running white and thereby Swords to Plowshares. Also, Gamekeeper/DSC still goes down to Tormod's Crypt, and most Goblin decks pack it. Good Salvagers players know this, so they realize they aren't gaining much with the DSC board.

4. Vial Goblins can outrace Darksteel Colossus more often than not, unless they're a bad version running Infest or get it on the board turn two.

ASSASSIN
05-30-2007, 07:20 PM
(You know, I don't really know why I'm arguing in this point since I long cut Chalice from my Goblin deck for better tech, but still)

Chalice for 0 is always the right play against Salvagers whether they kept the combo in or switched it out for Darksteel Colossus. For several reasons:

1. You don't know whether they kept the combo in or not. You're in a lot better shape boarding it in to be safe.

2. Good players won't cut all of their Lion's Eye Diamonds. They'll cut their Salvagers for the DSC's, and then maybe cut LED's for Infest, if they're one of the bad versions of Salvagers that runs Infest.

3. Good players rarely cut their combo against Vial Goblins in the first place. It's easier to Deed away their block pieces than to come through with DSC. Plus, as long as you don't show them a Taiga or Tin-Street in game 1, they won't know you aren't running white and thereby Swords to Plowshares. Also, Gamekeeper/DSC still goes down to Tormod's Crypt, and most Goblin decks pack it. Good Salvagers players know this, so they realize they aren't gaining much with the DSC board.

4. Vial Goblins can outrace Darksteel Colossus more often than not, unless they're a bad version running Infest or get it on the board turn two.

1. Yes but you can block the combo salvager and help if it is the control version. pyrostatic pillar is the better for than and after calice in 1 help too.

2. Ok may be he don't cut they but are the worst card in the deck without salvager.

3. Goods players know side for you never know if they are side out or no the combo. Salvager is the most sensible combo of the legacy (needle, pyrokinesis, tormod's, calice, pillar, anarchy... I have 13 cards why kill her combo in my sideboard) so salvager's player has not choice : he must use alternative combo for win.

4. I think I don't understand all what you want say. But salvager is a combo-CONTROLE. He are cabal therapy, innocent blood. And he regulary played infest, massacre or pernicious deed in sideboard, with cabal for play it fast. It is really hard to run it, you think about the CA for kill it.

But the better is when you say I long cut Chalice from my Goblin deck for better tech. When I speack with you I don't hide my techs. If you want keep yours you can but in forums you must divide yours ideas for constructed together a build.
So I say to you in my experience with gob the better solution is really calice/pillar with 2 REB. If you are an other opinion say it completely or don't speack.

NQN
05-31-2007, 11:08 AM
I started playing VG because i thought it would be a nice choice in my meta where Fish and NQG are heavy played and Flash won`t change this fact.
So I started testing and tryed to figure out a list that wins agains Flash,Fish,NQG,Solidarity and Mirror. landstill stays a good matchup tough.
So heres my List:
Lands:20
12 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Creatures:32
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matrone
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer


Other:8
4 Aether Vial
4 Leyline of the Void

Sideboard:
4 Pyrokenisis
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Serum Powder

This list runs really good and i just wanted to ask you how you think about my SB. I think theres no need for enchantment-removal anymore becuase COnfinement/Worship decks will be too slow in this fast combo-Meta.
So far...NQN:smile:

troopatroop
05-31-2007, 01:15 PM
-1 Pyromancer
-2 Leyline

+1 Incinerater
+2 Mountains

22 Lands is generally accepted as correct, if not minimal.

nitewolf9
05-31-2007, 02:13 PM
Running 2 leylines main deck with no way to cast them seems very questionable.
Even running all 4 maindeck seems bad since you have to pretty much mulligan into them when you need them, although I guess if you can figure out who is playing what it is probably ok. Have you considered maindeck pyroblasts instead?

NANTUKO_SHADY
05-31-2007, 03:26 PM
I agree with Dan on this one. You either go 4x Leyline of the Void, or 0. Running 2 seems like a horrible idea, as it greatly slims the chance of drawing it in your opening hand, which is coincidentally the only time you want to see the card.

Awesomator
05-31-2007, 07:58 PM
I liked 23 land PreFlash. Now I think 22 is optimal since the number of wastelands has dropped. I don't know why you would ever only run 2 leyline, I don't like Pyroblast either. 3-4 Therapy or 4 Leyline MD are the best choices IMO. Pyromancer isn't very good right now. I wouldn't run 4 Incinerator in this format either, three is enough. With the lack of wastelands there is absolutely no reason to not run a second color. Goblin King is worse than ever right now also. Enchantment removal helps vs Fish which generally runs 4 E Plague in the board as well as other randomness you will run into. I think enchantment and artifact removal is better than Pillar, but either is fine.

ASSASSIN
06-01-2007, 06:32 PM
4 leyline MD ? The metagame is not 50% flash, not 50% of deck played in legacy is based about the graveyard. So put they in sideboard if you want but play a card why in begin hand is good half a chance and is totaly useless if you draw after.
But now we can stop speack about the metagame flash (except you develop it for a tournament before the April, 20).

23 lands MD ? I begin play this deck with 21 lands without fetch and haven't big problems of mana. When I see all the designer put 22 or 23 lands I test it but the % of mana it too important. We can win with one land (with vial or lackey) and wan not necessary 4 lands in turn 4. The only argument is the problem for coast the 3 SGC MD, but if you play 23 lands, the 8 necessary playset if you play 3 SGC you cut important one-slot. So play 22 land and 2 SGC is really better.

And yes if are enchantement and artifact removal in red all goblin play it. But splash only for have disenchant or krosian grip it is sad. All deck play plague play discard and regulary wasteland. So the solution against plague is really run the lifeless deck why play it, and if you can shearch a goblin king for fuck the first plague.
Against jitte and other equipement goblin can kill creature with for exemple pyrokinesis against FS, R/G taiga and 5/3 and anarchy against WW, Angel Stompy fish if he play serra avenger or sliver knight. And you are tinkerer.
For other enchantement we are aluren, survival, pernicious deed, rift, confinement, worship, ghostly prison, CoP/RoP:R, humility, moat and now may be opalescence. anarchy in a mono red sideboard give a solution against most of they cards. For other you can play needle or play pyrostatic pillar for aluren.

So for finish my actual decklist for start again atfer the degenerate combo :

13 moutain
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland

4 aether vial

4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin matron
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin ringleader
2 Sieg-gang commander
1 skirk prospector
1 goblin tinkerer
1 sparkmith
1 goblin sharshooper
1 goblin king

SB : 4 calice of the void
SB : 4 pyrokinesis
SB : 3 pyrostatic pillar
SB : 2 red elemental blast
SB : 2 anarchy

I am open for coments :)

264505
06-01-2007, 07:29 PM
You might want to keep 3-4 spots open main for metagame stuff like chalice for combo and Pyrokinesis for aggro.

Awesomator
06-01-2007, 09:49 PM
22 lands was optimal in a preflash meta, now that it's banned 23 is definitely the way to go. 23 Land gives you a big edge in the mirror and is just better all around. Since the 8 gobs in the deck chain into more goblins (not mentioning sgc) 23 land is never too much. One of the MANY reasons we're running foothills and mires are because we're splashing a 2nd color. Tin Street>> Tinkerer. I also like Krosan grip over Anarchys and REBs, athough your meta could be entirely different.

ASSASSIN
06-03-2007, 06:52 AM
In mirror ? Stop with that. The important in mirror is not the number of land or the number of vial, juste the CA. The two opponants are 4 gempalm, 4 pyrokinesis, 4 fanatic and 1 sharp so table are always razed. You must draw, and not necessary draw fastly, just draw.

I play 15 matchs yesterday and think specially of my mana problem. I have one mana death and three mana full. But I keep five time a hand with one land. Why ? I open regluray hand whit 2 lackey, 2 vial or one lackey and one vial. I don't look the number of land in my beginning hand, juste the number of turn one.
After if you play fetchs and a second color (more sensible to wasteland) it is normal you play more land than me.

krosian grip are not the same utility than REB and anarchy. But the splash green is a tenable idea. Of course TSH > tinkerer, and in SB must be totally changed.

264505 -> I play chalice and pyrokinesis in X4 in sideboard. You can play 2 pyrokinesis MD but play leyline or calice in MD is stupid because this card never touch more than 50% of the metagame so in half chance it is useless.

Eldariel
06-03-2007, 07:07 AM
In mirror ? Stop with that. The important in mirror is not the number of land or the number of vial, juste the CA. The two opponants are 4 gempalm, 4 pyrokinesis, 4 fanatic and 1 sharp so table are always razed. You must draw, and not necessary draw fastly, just draw.

This isn't true. In the mirror, the player who can play his Goblins wins. Between two good Goblins-builds, Lackey isn't going to connect most of the time and Vial gets Tin Streeted or Tinkered. That leaves you to hardcast your creatures with your lands. A deck with 22 lands takes an aeon to get up to 4 in an average game, especially since your opponent can use Wastelands and Ports to delay you should he be in an advantageous position to do so. Goblins isn't a deck that runs out of cards, especially not in a match-up where there's no countermagic involved. Between Matrons, Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs, you might as well have infinite cards in hand. When you have infinite cards, the player who can play more of his cards wins. Obviously, that player is the one with more mana! Your Ringleaders are worthless if they sit in your hand when you're stuck at 3 lands, Siege-Gang Commanders even more so. A good Goblins-build is going to destroy your Aether Vial and kill your Lackey. Once you do the same, you both are left to topdecking enough lands and the player with more lands in his deck is always the candidate to topdeck more lands, thus having an advantage.

I run as many as 24 lands total, because of the mentioned factors. I haven't lost a mirror match since starting with this number. Yes, some games are lost to unanswered Lackeys and bad draws, but most of the time, my superior landbuild and the fact that most builds don't even run MD artifact removal for Vials means that I'll have an easy time smashing them, and thus far I haven't lost two games in a row when I'm in such an advantage in the mirror. Not only that, but against any deck which has the capability to destroy/stop your Vials and Lackeys, you need to be hardcasting creatures with converted casting cost of 5. That means you'll want to draw 5 lands straight, and even more since you run Rishadan Port and Wasteland. Furthermore, you want to draw two red sources by turn 3 which means that 14 is woefully too low a number. Even furthermore, in the green splash you want to draw GR for turn 2 Hooligan, further making the mana more relevant.

As a synopsis, playing more lands makes your deck more consistent, allows you to fight better against the decks that are prepared for you and allows you to be more reckless with your mana denial lands. It also makes your most common match-up, the mirror, better.

Finally, remember that when you're playing the most powerful, or one of the most powerful, deck(s) in the format, you're mostly in an advantage against your opponent as long as you get your mana right. Therefore, your #1 priority is to get your mana right, since the less games you lose to bad mana, the lower your chances of randomally losing a critical round in a tournament and getting knocked out of the Top 8 are. Your opponent is doing his very damn best killing you. You've got enough of an opponent there, so make sure you don't need to fight your own deck while at it. This is even further highlighted by the fact that Goblins are one of the very few decks that can keep hands with 5-6 lands and one-two business cards if those business cards happen to be Matrons and Ringleaders, preferably with a Rishadan Port available in the landbase. That's because you can generate the nigh' infinite flow of cards from that one creature. That's an added reason to play lots of mana, you aren't hurt as bad as normal decks when you're flooded, especially with Wastelands, Rishadan Ports and 8 fetches. Of course there're match-ups where you can't keep those 5-6 mana source hands, but against anything even a bit slower, or counter-reliant, especially if some of the sources is a Vial, you're well off with manaheavy hands.

ASSASSIN
06-03-2007, 11:33 AM
It is a very interessant point of view. But if you read my precedents posts you have responds in more of you questions.

1-
and 8 fetches.
You can play 8 fetches and bilands, so that justifie one or two land in plus. But me I play 21 lands but only the 8 mana denial and moutain (13).
Fetches are not adapted to gobbo if he is monocolore, I think. And that because in gob you don't necessary want a hand with 3 lands, you can wait a little or survive with only 2 lands. And shuffle you library is not a avantage in gobbo, the lost of PVs is a handicap in match-up aggro or aggro-controle.

2-
our Ringleaders are worthless if they sit in your hand when you're stuck at 3 lands
No in mirror. When you have 4 fanatic, 4 gempalm (and pioche help for have land), matron for shearch gempalm, sharp and 4 pyrokinesis and if the opponant must destroy lackey, vial and warchief you have really the time for have 4 land.

3-
I haven't lost a mirror match since starting with this number.[quote]
In more of 50th of games against gobbo with a part against good players (but no necessary famous) I play I lose only one, against the worse player of worlds and because I have a TOTALLY mana full (14 lands and 6 gobs two time O_o)...

4-[quote]you need to be hardcasting creatures with converted casting cost of 5.
You may be but no me. SGC is not a biggest card in my gob conception. He is usite only with a vial in 5 for can sacrifie in the same turn but I prefer regulary to leave vial in 3 or 4. I play it in two exemplary but if in a metagame I want slot in MD for a splash I'm agree for cut one.

5-
playing more lands makes your deck more consistent
So if I play a 43lands gobbo my deck become mort consistent ? LOL. No, have a good number a land, a good harmony into mana death and mana full. If you cut lands you can't play the deck anough fastly and if you add land you have less interessants spells.

6-
Goblins are one of the very few decks that can keep hands with 5-6 lands and one-two business cards if those business cards happen to be Matrons and Ringleaders
I prefer keep a hand with two vial or one vial and one lackey and one land. I begin and put one land and directly solicite opponant reaction. If he haven't I win with all my goblin in hand. If he have he play this FOW, daze and he lost a turn or he lose two cards. If you keep a hand whit only matron and ringlader you can begin play only in turn three and if they are counter with a counterspell or a daze (why don't handicap this controler in turn 3) you lose.

7-
Of course there're match-ups where you can't keep those 5-6 mana source hands, but against anything even a bit slower, or counter-reliant, especially if some of the sources is a Vial, you're well off with manaheavy hands.
Against a deck why have counter you want play most turn one for force it to react. And after you want have more spell. Haven't match-up in you would keep a hand with 5 lands matron or ringlader. It is a longer hand, easy countrable.

You partage the opinion of toad for the number of land. For me 21 (without fetch and splash) si a good number, 22 is a standard number and the good number if you play fetch, 23 a high number and 24 is a perfect number for have always mana full. But you're a little famous so is not a proof of ignorance or lack of test.
We speack specially of the mirror. Are you agree for test a few games in MWS even if this program has not reprensentative of the reality.

Eldariel
06-03-2007, 06:14 PM
1-
You can play 8 fetches and bilands, so that justifie one or two land in plus. But me I play 21 lands but only the 8 mana denial and moutain (13).
Fetches are not adapted to gobbo if he is monocolore, I think. And that because in gob you don't necessary want a hand with 3 lands, you can wait a little or survive with only 2 lands. And shuffle you library is not a avantage in gobbo, the lost of PVs is a handicap in match-up aggro or aggro-controle.

You still need to draw a Mountain in your opening hand unless you have a Vial. 16% of the time, 13 lands will leave you Mountainless. Out of those, 4% will be cases where you've got Vial and a disruption land, a risky keep (you lose the mirror against opponents that can destroy your Vial), but often a keep nevertheless. That leaves you to mulligan 12% of the time just for mana issues. With 16 lands, you eliminate a good 6% of the non-land hands, leaving you with 10% of no-Mountain hands and 8% of no-Mountain, no-disruption land+Vial hands. I don't know about you, but if I had the choice, I'd rather choose to play with 6 cards 8 games out of 100 as opposed to 12 games out of hundred (of course you mulligan for other reasons too, so the numbers are higher than that; specifically, one-landers are rarely keepers).


2-
No in mirror. When you have 4 fanatic, 4 gempalm (and pioche help for have land), matron for shearch gempalm, sharp and 4 pyrokinesis and if the opponant must destroy lackey, vial and warchief you have really the time for have 4 land.

Hardly, when you play your third land and Warchief, he'll respond by killing it. Once you pass the turn, he'll play Ringleader. Then he plays SGC and you're in deep straits.


3-[quote]I haven't lost a mirror match since starting with this number.[quote]
In more of 50th of games against gobbo with a part against good players (but no necessary famous) I play I lose only one, against the worse player of worlds and because I have a TOTALLY mana full (14 lands and 6 gobs two time O_o)...

Yea, that happens. However, statistically that's 'getting lucky'. Also, if the opponents you've played against have played 21-22 lands, winning against them doesn't prove your point. My point is that with 24 lands, I've been winning the mirror very consistently against players with 22 lands. It seems like my 24-land build is at an advantage against a 22-land build, not only from a theorethical perspective, but also in practical experience.


4-
You may be but no me. SGC is not a biggest card in my gob conception. He is usite only with a vial in 5 for can sacrifie in the same turn but I prefer regulary to leave vial in 3 or 4. I play it in two exemplary but if in a metagame I want slot in MD for a splash I'm agree for cut one.

Well, you SHOULD cut him if you only run him for the Vial, then he isn't worth it. I run him because he wins games alones and he keeps doing so all the time. 4 creatures in a mirror is huge. Most of the games I lose in attrition against Goblins are to topdecked SGCs. Simply, the card is a ridiculous bomb and being able to play ridiculous bombs ensures that you win. My Goblin Fish played SGC as its only bomb and it still beat normal Goblins getting Ringleader Chain off on many occasions by simply chaining few SGCs, hurling some tokens and just winning. 4 creatures that double as burn-spells for 5 is nutty, hence why we play SGC.


5-
So if I play a 43lands gobbo my deck become mort consistent ? LOL. No, have a good number a land, a good harmony into mana death and mana full. If you cut lands you can't play the deck anough fastly and if you add land you have less interessants spells.

Obviously the point isn't overdoing it, but maximizing your chances of winning. That means keeping your Ringleaders, Lackeys, Warchiefs and Vials effective while still playing the maximum number of lands. It's further more important if you intend on hardcasting Warchiefs like in matches against good non-combo decks (those that bash your Vials and Lackeys alike).


6-
I prefer keep a hand with two vial or one vial and one lackey and one land. I begin and put one land and directly solicite opponant reaction. If he haven't I win with all my goblin in hand. If he have he play this FOW, daze and he lost a turn or he lose two cards. If you keep a hand whit only matron and ringlader you can begin play only in turn three and if they are counter with a counterspell or a daze (why don't handicap this controler in turn 3) you lose.

Sure, but you still have turns to topdeck and if you have the said Vial and they have a slow clock, you can just ramp Vial and win. Basically, having the mana to cast everything you topdeck is pretty awesome in a deck that can topdeck into a bunch of cards that read 'I win' all over them. That's how you beat Threshold that held your initial barrage too.


We speack specially of the mirror. Are you agree for test a few games in MWS even if this program has not reprensentative of the reality.

Sure, I'm up for games whenever. We'll have to generate a large enough sample size to ensure that the results aren't too badly skewed by the used program or statistical anomalities though.

puddn
06-04-2007, 05:18 AM
I know ASSASSIN by a french website but i don't agree with some things he said:

- SGC is minimum in 2 because as Eldariel said, it's a bomb and he wins a match alone

- 22 lands is a minimum if you don't play any fetchland but 24 is a good number if you play fetch

- in the mirror, the player who will win, is the one who gets his vial quickly, and more lands than the other. and sharpshooter is a win card for the first player who has it

@ASSASSIN: i have never played IRL against you but you know that a lot of player who played against you said you are very lucky, so when you spoke about your hand with 2 lackey or 2 vial or 1 lackey and 1 vial, you couldn't be objective

Eldariel
06-04-2007, 05:42 AM
- in the mirror, the player who will win, is the one who gets his vial quickly, and more lands than the other. and sharpshooter is a win card for the first player who has it

Sharpshooter rarely wins matches when you're playing with Gempalms and Mogg Fanatics. He just rarely gets to untap and even if played with a Warchief in play, you'll only get to kill some 1/1s as most of the relevant Goblins are actually 2/2 (or Fanatics, which still kill the SS). Vial would be good if everyone and their moms didn't play enough stuff to blow it up. That's what changed the nature of the mirror so much, the widespread adaption of large number of MD Tinkerers or Tin Street Hooligans.

Machinus
06-04-2007, 10:28 AM
That's what changed the nature of the mirror so much, the widespread adaption of large number of MD Tinkerers or Tin Street Hooligans.

This did change the mirror. It also put even more importance on running a higher land count. 22 lands just doesn't work anymore.

Eldariel
06-04-2007, 02:02 PM
This did change the mirror. It also put even more importance on running a higher land count. 22 lands just doesn't work anymore.

My point exactly. Since you can't rely on having anything but lands to cast your spells with and you need to assume your opponent will be pressuring your landbase, you really need to have as many lands as you can cram in without hurting your overall build to actually have a shot at using your bombs.

emidln
06-04-2007, 02:27 PM
Turn 1 Chalice at 0 is the way to go if you're after turning off LED, Chrome mox and lotus petal, but chalilice at 1 is a lot stronger when dealing with decks like SI and belcher, but it is too slow a lot of times. Pyrostatic pillar is also a combo option but it usually doesnt deal enough damage to matter.

No. SI is more affected by Chalice @ 0, while Belcher is more affected by Chalice @ 1.

Chalice @ 1 turns off the following in SI:

Dark Ritual
Culling the Weak

Chalice @ 0 turns off the following in SI:

Lotus Petal
Chrome Mox
Lion's Eye Diamond
Shield Sphere (blocker against fast aggro allowing sculpting)
Phyrexian Walker (see Shield Sphere)
Culling the Weak (requires Shield Sphere and Phyrexian Walker to resolve)

Now, considering SI runs between 14 and 16 cards that actually make mana without any outside effort (4 land grant/fetchlands, 2-4 land, 4 petal, 4 mox), and cards that make mana are the primary bottleneck in beginning your combo, what is the more effective Chalice setting?

Now, looking at Belcher (we'll take CRET Belcher, because it seems to be the only thing with a semi-standard list), Chalice @ 0 hits:

Lotus Petal
Chrome Mox
Lion's Eye Diamond

Chalice @ 1 hits more with:

Dark Ritual
Rite of Flame
Wild Cantor
Tinder Wall

Here, Chalice @ 1 is much more effective, especially when you consider that Belcher has 22 potential initial mana sources ( 4 land grant, 2 lands, 4 petal, 4 mox, 8 spirit guides).

There is still a remaining point that nobody I know is sane enough to play SI at a large tournament (and I wrote the primer on it!) without massive changes (which aren't public I don't believe) followed up by Chalice @ 1 being monumentally too slow against CRET Belcher. Chalice @ 0 seems to have about a 50/50 shot of actually stopping CRET Belcher from going off, perhaps less depending on the ration of them attempting an ETW for a bajillion tokens.

ASSASSIN
06-04-2007, 03:11 PM
You still need to draw a Mountain in your opening hand unless you have a Vial. 16% of the time, 13 lands will leave you Mountainless. Out of those, 4% will be cases where you've got Vial and a disruption land, a risky keep (you lose the mirror against opponents that can destroy your Vial), but often a keep nevertheless. That leaves you to mulligan 12% of the time just for mana issues. With 16 lands, you eliminate a good 6% of the non-land hands, leaving you with 10% of no-Mountain hands and 8% of no-Mountain, no-disruption land+Vial hands. I don't know about you, but if I had the choice, I'd rather choose to play with 6 cards 8 games out of 100 as opposed to 12 games out of hundred (of course you mulligan for other reasons too, so the numbers are higher than that; specifically, one-landers are rarely keepers).
Of course You have more land in hand. But when you compare only the mana death of the two deck you cheat. If you compare the 5/6/7 lands it is a point for me. And thank you for all % but for that I prefer the personal resentment and I haven't a lot of mana death. I have more mana death than you, it is sure but we don't have the same conception for the when play gobbo. You want 5 lands in turn 5 (or 6), I don't want the 4e land in turn 4.


Yea, that happens. However, statistically that's 'getting lucky'. Also, if the opponents you've played against have played 21-22 lands, winning against them doesn't prove your point. My point is that with 24 lands, I've been winning the mirror very consistently against players with 22 lands. It seems like my 24-land build is at an advantage against a 22-land build, not only from a theorethical perspective, but also in practical experience.
Yes it is only lucky, but MTG lucky, I explain what I mean with that after.
And when we speack about mirror and you speak about your win, it is an invitation to speak about mine.


Sure, but you still have turns to topdeck and if you have the said Vial and they have a slow clock, you can just ramp Vial and win. Basically, having the mana to cast everything you topdeck is pretty awesome in a deck that can topdeck into a bunch of cards that read 'I win' all over them. That's how you beat Threshold that held your initial barrage too.
If I have vial I like all my mana denial because I can use it each turn. My better departure is a vial T1, rishadan T2 (and if it is possible lackey in EOT but it is only a bonus :D).
******** player hate (really) me in my habitual store because against they I can or bless they with a lackey or put a vial and in the same time destroy her mana base or clean her hand and play after ringlader and matron. But I help they for have fastly the ******** :D.


Sure, I'm up for games whenever. We'll have to generate a large enough sample size to ensure that the results aren't too badly skewed by the used program or statistical anomalities though.
I'm agree. I add your msn adress.


- SGC is minimum in 2 because as Eldariel said, it's a bomb and he wins a match alone
When it is destroy directly after, he only put three 1/1 whitout abilities. With vial it is really a bomb but without no.


- in the mirror, the player who will win, is the one who gets his vial quickly, and more lands than the other. and sharpshooter is a win card for the first player who has it
sharpshooter is a kenny and put it with warchief is possible but warchief is too one of the first target of blast so the opponant can kill warchief in response to sharp and sharp after.


- 22 lands is a minimum if you don't play any fetchland but 24 is a good number if you play fetch
Play 24 land, 3 SGC, 1 sharp and the 8 essential playset. So you can't play any skirk or tinkerer, it is sad.
And fetches don't change the number of lands in beginning hand and in the first turns.

I speak about difference of planification of the game. I propose to compare hand you keep and I keep for see the difference. We analyse the beginning hand in the first games against a unknow person.

Eldariel
06-04-2007, 05:21 PM
I play 3 Gempalms and 2 SGCs with 24 lands giving me room for 3 Tin Streets. Obviously I don't play Sharpshooter. Anyway, we played the games, split pre-board (3-3) and post-board Assassin won 4-2. However, the fact was that the player with the more mana still won the games, for some reason it just was more often him than me (alright, so my playing was pretty horrid, even I saw my mistakes...about half a turn too late). Also, we both got MWSed a lot with 20+ cards of the same type piped in multiple games, which unfortunately does affect the outcomes ('no, your lands aren't in the next 20 cards' or 'all your following 20 cards produce mana'). Anyway, the reason for our different builds turns out to be the difference between the French and the American meta; the French metagame doesn't seem to contain much artifact removal (specifically, few builds run Tinkerers and/or Tin Streets), very much like back in American meta half a year ago, so Vials are much more reliable and thus the extra lands are somewhat optional. Anyway, I'm fairly sure it'd turn into my advantage if I played properly and we played offline, but his build is perfectly valid as it serves him in his meta.

b4r0n
06-04-2007, 07:46 PM
I play 3 Gempalms and 2 SGCs with 24 lands giving me room for 3 Tin Streets.

I recently tried that out, but didn't like it too much. It might just be me, but I felt like 3 Hooligans were too many. I ended up going back down to 2 Hooligans and up to 3 SGC; I feel like this optimizes Lackey connections, and gives me more bombs to drop in the late game. However, I do run the third Hooligan in the board, since it's quite useful in some matches and especially in the mirror. Have you been happy with your configuration when not playing against the mirror?

Also, in your build with 24 lands, how many fetches do you run? I've seen lists with anywhere from 4 to 8. Personally, I use 6.

Eldariel
06-04-2007, 08:04 PM
8 fetches, I feel that's the minimum for consistent green access on turn 2. Besides, I can afford not drawing lands in the midgame after I'm up to 5-7 lands, so having multiple fetches at work there helps. And yea, I've been happy with Tin Streets. Haven't faced a deck that didn't care outside combo-decks yet. I love the third SGC, but I love Tin Street even more, so no dice there. I can't for the life of me find enough boardspace for everything I have, so boarding another Tin Street is totally out of question for me. As it stands, I already have less slots than I'd want (I only have 7 anti-combo slots as opposed to the 8th I'd want, and only 5 anti-Plague slots as opposed to the 6, no graveyard hate and only 3 anti-enchantment/artifact cards as opposed to the 4 and only 3 mirror-cards as opposed to the 4. That's 1 less at basically everything than I'd want, but I feel like that's the size of a compromise I can do).

Tacosnape
06-06-2007, 12:02 AM
I know ASSASSIN by a french website but i don't agree with some things he said

Let's not discriminate. People from all countries are equally capable of being completely wrong and having no grasp of the intricacies of a deck.


This did change the mirror. It also put even more importance on running a higher land count. 22 lands just doesn't work anymore.

I mostly agree. It's not so much the 22 that kills me, though, as it is the 14 red. Too often I sit there with Mountain, Wasteland, Port, and a handful of Warchiefs. I do fine with 22 when I only run 6 Waste/Ports. But since I much prefer having the full mana disruption, I'd say 23 is the way to go.

How many fetches? How many Tin-Streets?

I run 7 fetches with 23 Land. I feel 4 Duals and 4 basics is a comfort zone for me, and I like having the full 8 Waste/Ports too.

As for Tin-Streets, I'm also of the school of thought that runs only two (Though currently my Goblins build is RW for complicated sideboarding reasons.) I find I can steal more combo matches by swinging Lackey into SGC, and I win more control matches by randomly topdecking Siege-Gang Commanders at the perfect time than I can count.

Jak
06-09-2007, 03:16 AM
I really like the Brightstone Ritual idea to handle EtW. It seems to be picking up with belcher and TES, so I don't think it would be that silly. I have thoughts on the Ritual and EE which would also help against it, but is definitely not as sweet :cool: . EE would also be great against slivers, which IMO is becoming popular. Thoughts? Would these be good in the board?

Tacosnape
06-09-2007, 05:42 AM
I really like the Brightstone Ritual idea to handle EtW. It seems to be picking up with belcher and TES, so I don't think it would be that silly. I have thoughts on the Ritual and EE which would also help against it, but is definitely not as sweet :cool: . EE would also be great against slivers, which IMO is becoming popular. Thoughts? Would these be good in the board?

I've recently discovered Brightstone Ritual is incredible in the mirror, also. Losing that mana battle and fixing to get slaughtered? Not for long. Need to close your opponent out? No sweat.

Opponent nailed you with a Lackey and dropped Siege-Gang? Tap one, Ritual for 5, drop out a Siege-Gang of your own. Fun times ensue!

264505
06-09-2007, 07:16 AM
Wouldn't brightstone be a little lack luster when your behind? You need at least 3 goblins to even make it a dark ritual and with an active siege-gang in the example you described they would ping a goblin in responce and leave you 1 mana short. The card is gamebreaking in a race situation/creature stalemate, I'll assume, but in the described situation gimmie Pyrokinesis.

Mijorre
06-09-2007, 09:38 AM
Each goblin in play, not only your own.
Otherwise, it would be a cruddy card.

Besides, I assume they are tapped out after they cast their commander + cycle gempalm to kill your blocker...

Silverdragon
06-09-2007, 12:35 PM
Speaking of manabases lately I had some trouble with my testbuild while playing against Stax (or rather I was testing Stax and constantly felt I didn't have the best Goblindeck to test against). Before you laugh at me or say that the Goblinplayer was just bad I don't think skill was a factor in the problems I encountered (we also switched roles between matches).
So here is my problem: I was testing against this list
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege Gang Commander
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Tin Street Holigan
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
5 Mountain

From the sideboard I add 4 Krosan Grip.
So as I already mentioned I had problems with my mana. Mainly the fact that I had more fetchlands than actual fetchable lands but also that I had 10 ways to get green mana but once both Taigas were Wasted I was out.
Of course I know there are ways to play around Wasteland and against Stax it is naturally hard to keep the manabase intact but I felt that it was harder than it should be.
Is there any advise you can give me? I thought about cutting the fetchlands to 6 and add 2 Taigas and I also want to cut a Goblin to add the 24th land but I'm not sure what the best options are. Up to now this list was solid against most of the decks I tested with but in long games that involve LD on both sides I was dissappointed with this manabase.

Jak
06-09-2007, 04:32 PM
Just add 2 more Taigas, cutting 2 fetches. I think 23 lands is fine. IMO I would not go above it. But it should not be that hard if you just wait to play Taigas, so then you can use Tinny. Other than that the list looks fine.

264505
06-10-2007, 06:06 PM
Each goblin in play, not only your own.
Otherwise, it would be a cruddy card.

Besides, I assume they are tapped out after they cast their commander + cycle gempalm to kill your blocker...

Yea, i didn't even bother reading the card, thats just sick then, i ought to try that.

Awesomator
06-10-2007, 06:35 PM
Speaking of manabases lately I had some trouble with my testbuild while playing against Stax (or rather I was testing Stax and constantly felt I didn't have the best Goblindeck to test against). Before you laugh at me or say that the Goblinplayer was just bad I don't think skill was a factor in the problems I encountered (we also switched roles between matches).
So here is my problem: I was testing against this list
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege Gang Commander
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Tin Street Holigan
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
5 Mountain

From the sideboard I add 4 Krosan Grip.
So as I already mentioned I had problems with my mana. Mainly the fact that I had more fetchlands than actual fetchable lands but also that I had 10 ways to get green mana but once both Taigas were Wasted I was out.
Of course I know there are ways to play around Wasteland and against Stax it is naturally hard to keep the manabase intact but I felt that it was harder than it should be.
Is there any advise you can give me? I thought about cutting the fetchlands to 6 and add 2 Taigas and I also want to cut a Goblin to add the 24th land but I'm not sure what the best options are. Up to now this list was solid against most of the decks I tested with but in long games that involve LD on both sides I was dissappointed with this manabase.

Don't like sharpshooter, I would cut it for the fourth fanatic. The third Tin street should be the fourth Incinerator. At least one fetch should turn into a Taiga (I play 4 Taiga). List looks right other than that, what does your board look like?

Eldariel
06-10-2007, 06:36 PM
Don't like sharpshooter, I would cut it for the fourth fanatic. The third Tin street should be the fourth Incinerator. At least one fetch should turn into a Taiga (I play 4 Taiga). List looks right other than that, what does your board look like?

I think 3 Tin Streets is better than 4 Incins, since you can always cast Tin Street turn 2 and if you have 3, you can afford to do it even if you have nothing to destroy, while Gempalm will only cycle if opponent didn't play anything you could destroy on the first turns. Gempalm is great, sure, but blowing up artifacts is awesome and being able to hardcast Tin Street in case it becomes necessary is quite nifty too.

mikekelley
06-10-2007, 06:56 PM
I want to further examine the blue splash, possibly with standstill. Vial + Port + Waste + Lackey + siege gang and so on, anything else that puts goblins "into play' without "playing them" could be domination. I might throw together a list later tonight.

It might be a total flop. Whatevs. I'll try to do some "testing" sooner or later.

Silverdragon
06-10-2007, 07:05 PM
Thanks for the advise. 2 Fetchlands will be replaced by 2 Taigas and I'll cut the Sharpshooter for either Fanatic or Incinerator. So far 3 Tin-Street Hooligan was great especially because I'm mainly using this deck to test against Stax.
Aside from 3-4 Krosan Grips my board is 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Pyrostatic Pillar, 3-4 Pyrokinesis.

Awesomator
06-10-2007, 07:14 PM
Gempalm & Fanatic help Lackey get through. Incinerator kills creatures and draws a card, or you can just draw. Every deck in the format is running creatures. I would love to fit a 3rd Tin Street, but there is no way I would take out a Fanatic or Incinerator to do it. When Flash was legal I cut 1 Incinerator, but post B/R, you have to go to 4 of each.

Silverdragon
06-10-2007, 07:37 PM
Gempalm and Fanatic don't help against Plated Sliver, Nimble Mongoose, Kird Ape, Isamaru, Sarcomancy or the plain old Swords/Bolt. Of course Tin-Street Hooligan doesn't help either but Hooligan helps more against active Jitte or SoFI. My (limited) experience is that against decks playing creatures you don't need to connect with Lackey because you are favored in a long game anyway.
This ties directly into the question about the bluesplash for Standstill. The only thing Standstill gives you is cardadvantage but even without it you already overwhelm most decks with Ringleader and SGC. In a deck like Landstill Standstill is great because it gives you counterspells and mass removal. In Goblins all you get is more Goblins.
Imho the only reason Goblins runs a splashcolor is to fight hate and there are stronger options in white, green and black.

Awesomator
06-10-2007, 07:57 PM
The only heavily played card you named was Nimble Mongoose. Incinerator is vital against the mirror, SOTF, Fish, and let's name some of the decks from cards you posted up.. boros, white weenie, D&T, Zoo, Tarmogoyf in Thresh, 3Deuce, Black Stompy, and anything else aggro. Oh yeah, and it still cantrips and is uncounterable. Fanatic is a beater who stops lackey on the draw, which is key, unless you like having disadvantages in mirror matches, also kills all important cards in sotf, welder, confidant, not to mentioned 2 toughness creatures that attack or sometimes block. Artifacts usually come out in early-middle game. The 2 Tin Street, if not in hand can be tutored for to get rid of equipment.

Shriekmaw
06-10-2007, 09:34 PM
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege Gang Commander
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Tin Street Holigan
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
5 Mountain




I would probably cut the 1 seige-gang commander and 1 tin street holigan in the main deck to add the 4th mogg fanatic and the 4th gempalm incinerator.


If your worried about beating stax, you could always add the 3rd holigan from the board after game 1. The cards that I found to be helpful when I playtested against 5/3 was Goblin Tinkerer and Pyrokenesis. They seemed to be more reliable since you don't have to worry about getting green mana in order to destroy artifacts.

I wouldn't worry too much about this matchup because its one that I rarely see. If you go against just Stax, then I would seriously try goblin tinkerer, you'll be happy with the results. Krosan grip would come in, but I wouldn't board in all 4 if they are in the board.

Awesomator
06-10-2007, 11:59 PM
I wouldn't cut SGC, it's key for beating your worst matchups, which are combo decks.

Tacosnape
06-11-2007, 12:55 AM
As far as Standstill goes, I played this version for quite awhile.

The thing about it is this: Usually in order for you to fully capitalize on Standstill, you ideally want a clear path Lackey or a Vial out on turn two, or a few goblins against a clear board. At the risk of this being an overgeneralization, I usually find if I untap on turn two with either of those, that one of two things is true:

1. I'm going to win whether I have the Standstill or not.
2. I'm in a matchup, like say Iggy Pop, where Standstill isn't going to make enough of a difference for me to win.

There are exceptions, but not many. Realizing this is what made me go away from Standstill.

Phantom
06-12-2007, 11:26 PM
I once heard a top Goblins player (might have been Machinus?) say that he would keep a hand of all land and Aether Vial simply because of how powerful vial is. I can't really argue since an early Vial allows me to win most of my non combo matches when I am piloting Goblins. So my question is, why not run more Vials?

Many people are still splashing white (although the green splash seems to have taken off) and I am wondering if Enlightened Tutor wouldn't be worth testing. It would allow you to have a first or second turn Vial the majority of games, and could turn your board into an anti combo machine (virtually 8 Chalices, 5-8 Crypts, etc).

I certainly see some problems. You would have to run a non Vial artifact to fetch when you drew both Vial and tutor (Jitte maybe?) and the card disadvantage is never fun. Also, slowing down the Vial drop by a turn leads to more counters.

Anyway, I'd like to get some thoughts before I put in some testing time.

sammiel
06-13-2007, 12:00 AM
card disadvantage.

Lets not waste time with enlightened tutor.

Eldariel
06-13-2007, 12:08 AM
As far as Standstill goes, I played this version for quite awhile.

The thing about it is this: Usually in order for you to fully capitalize on Standstill, you ideally want a clear path Lackey or a Vial out on turn two, or a few goblins against a clear board. At the risk of this being an overgeneralization, I usually find if I untap on turn two with either of those, that one of two things is true:

1. I'm going to win whether I have the Standstill or not.
2. I'm in a matchup, like say Iggy Pop, where Standstill isn't going to make enough of a difference for me to win.

There are exceptions, but not many. Realizing this is what made me go away from Standstill.

I tested Goblin Fish rather briefly. The deck feels sound, but even at mere 20 Goblins and 0 Ringleaders, Standstill still doesn't work. Here it seems even worse, either you're already winning or you can't play it. Mostly, anyways. This is further amplified by the fact that we're playing a deck with exactly 0 manlands, or creatures that can actually be played under Standstill, meaning that we need to have a threat in place to actually play the entire card and even then, being the aggro-deck in many MUs, slowing our gameplan for a few cards we would've Ringleadered into anyways doesn't just seem worth it, especially at the cost of weakening the said Ringleaders.

Awesomator
06-13-2007, 12:59 AM
Enlightened tutor isn't going to work well.. trust me.

Tacosnape
06-13-2007, 04:42 AM
@Eldariel: I completely agree.

@Phantom: Part of Vial's strength is that it can come down turn one, and with certain hands it may be correct to play Vial turn one even over the Lackey. Then after disrupting your opponent with Wasteland and Port for a couple turns, by turn four you're eating face with ridiculous goblin shit. Enlightened Tutor in this instance is essentially a Time Walk for your opponent. It's one turn you don't charge the Vial up, and one turn you don't draw a card. But don't worry. I suggested Dryad Arbor. I still win for bad ideas.

So anyway, I've been testing the Black Splash some more after being annoyed with both white and green. I really really like what Cabal Therapy and Duress in the sideboard can do for this deck. It's like combining your anti-goblin removal and your combo hate in the same card, and Goblins is one of the few decks where a single hand disruption spell can buy enough tempo to win a game. With combo decks becoming more and more versatile and with some of them easily surviving even Chalice of the Void, is black worth re-exploring?

This is what I've been running:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
1 Cabal Therapy

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

This takes a very straightforward and aggressive, albeit risky and possibly oversimplified, attitude for Goblins: Solve everything weird with Duress and Therapy. These two little cards both hurt combo and rip away Plague and Jitte and Confinement and so forth. Pyrokinesis is there for aggro matchups, and Tormod's Crypt solves more random graveyard problems than imaginable while giving you an amazingly good postboard match against any combo deck that relies on the graveyard.

It's also worth noting for simple amusement that this deck absolutely rolls Gamekeeper Salvagers postboard, with the full 15 hate cards to board in.

Awesomator
06-13-2007, 08:07 AM
not a bad list.. i like it for the most part. You will most likely end up having more problems with E Plague, but your combo matchup would go up big time. I'm also not a fan of sharpshooter, don't like win more cards and I never will. I will be running Green still since I think Krosan grip is faaaar too good. That version would do fine in the meta though.

Eldariel
06-13-2007, 08:37 AM
Also, you have no artifact removal between the MD and the SB. Sure you can't fit some Tinkerers? I think we all know the impact of being able to destroy the offending Jittes, Vials, Scrolls and other nonsense. Tinkerer may be no Hooligan, but it's still no slouch either. Also, any possible way to fit at least second Therapy in the MD? That looks like it'd improve your chances vs. combo G1 enermously. That's the reason I personally like Rb, it gives you MDable disruption.

Awesomator
06-13-2007, 09:51 AM
I would like -1 sharpshooter +1tinkerer

Tacosnape
06-13-2007, 01:47 PM
I suppose it's possible. The Sharpshooter could become either a Tinkerer or a 2nd Therapy.

puddn
06-18-2007, 03:41 PM
a french player (Yamaelle) wins a french tournament on MWs with gob fish.
Here the list:

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Islands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Mountains

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matrons
4 Siege Gang Commander
3 Gempelm Incinerator

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Force of Will

SB
1 Gempelm Incinerator
1 Force of Will
2 Pyrokenesis
3 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Anarchy
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Patron of the Akki


N.B: the SB isn't optimal

Jak
06-18-2007, 04:00 PM
Gob fish just doesnt seem great at all. Personally I think counterslivers will start to be played a lot because it can beat goblins, while having a gg against combo. It really depends how the meta turns out because people might be having boards like this.

3 Krosan Grip
4 EE
4 Brightstone Ritual
4 Chalice

Tacosnape
06-18-2007, 08:18 PM
Okay, here's a question for all you Goblin experts.

In screwing around with various R/B Goblin builds, I was briefly testing a version with 2 maindeck Therapy and 2 maindeck Pyrokinesis. I was playing against an unknown opponent with an unknown deck. I lost the die roll, 14-12. I kept the following hand:

Bloodstained Mire
Wasteland
Aether Vial
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Matron
Cabal Therapy
Pyrokinesis

My opponent also kept, then played Taiga, Birds of Paradise, go. I untapped and drew a Mogg Fanatic. So now my hand was:

Bloodstained Mire
Wasteland
Aether Vial
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Matron
Cabal Therapy
Pyrokinesis
Mogg Fanatic

My question is, what would you do here?

I played the Mire, fetched the Badlands, and Therapied for Survival, thinking that if this was indeed Survival and I hit it and the opponent had Witnesses I could Pyrokinesis the Bird. I hit a Survival, then Pyrokinesis'd the Birds of Paradise pitching the Matron as my opponent indeed had two Eternal Witnesses in hand he could play next turn. Next turn I drew into a basic Mountain, played it, played the Fanatic and the Lackey, and flashed the Therapy with the Fanatic for Eternal Witness. This would give me two swings with the Lackey to pick up a Goblin.

I talked with the guy (Nice guy, whoever he was) after the game and he suggested he'd have played the Lackey even knowing the deck was probably Survival on the chance the deck didn't have one, preparing to Pyrokinesis away all his opponent's threats next turn since there probably wouldn't be sufficient mana for a Flametongue Kavu. Then after connecting with the Lackey, if Survival did hit, he could stall for time by Wastelanding the Taiga.

A third person I mentioned this situation to suggested merely fetching a Badlands, dropping the Vial, and passing, preparing to massively disrupt the manabase next turn with the Wasteland, Vialing out the Fanatic, and casting the Lackey.

All of these seem like pretty solid strategies.

Thoughts?

Eldariel
06-18-2007, 09:06 PM
Had I had the same read as you, I would've played Therapy, Pyrokinesis pitching Fanatic, turn 2 Wasteland, Lackey to try to close the deal. If I wasn't sure what he was playing, on the draw against RG I'd always go with Vial since Lackey is too unlikely to connect unless it comes out at the EoT. And you had the tools to make it connect with Pyro and Fanatic. You needed two connections though, something Vial would again slightly alleviate as it gives you two strong midgame plans.

So yea, if I was hellbent on him playing Survival, I would've Cabal Therapied it away and saved the Matron. But yea, Lackey connecting after his 3-drop with you still having something scary in hand seemed unlikely enough so that's immediately out.

264505
06-18-2007, 09:09 PM
I think i would have droped a turn 1 lackey but thats just me. Next turn if he dropped survival i would waste, play fanatic, shoot and swing. Would you mind posting the list as i now own 3 badlands for the deck (still 2 plateaus short of the white version and i want to get this up and running ASAP).

Bane of the Living
06-18-2007, 09:28 PM
You obviously played it perfectly but its nice that your hand gave you enough options. Theres no other deck in the format other than survival that opens with Taiga, BoP. That just shows the disgusting resiliency goblins has at its disposal.

MattH
06-18-2007, 11:21 PM
My opponent also kept, then played Taiga, Birds of Paradise, go. I untapped and drew a Mogg Fanatic. So now my hand was:

Bloodstained Mire
Wasteland
Aether Vial
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Matron
Cabal Therapy
Pyrokinesis
Mogg Fanatic

My question is, what would you do here?

Since there's no expectation he will play a Wasteland, your worthwhile options are these:

1. Fetch->Badlands->Therapy, Pyro the Bird.
2a. Waste his Taiga.
2b. Pyrokinesis his bird, Waste his Taiga.
3. Pyrokinesis his Bird, Fetch->Badlands->Lackey.
4. Pyrokinesis his Bird, Fetch->Badlands->Vial.
5. Fetch->Badlands->Fanatic his Bird.
6. Fetch for Badlands, play Vial.

I would probably just play Vial, go. He doesn't have any 3 mana spells I care about - all the good stuff is 2 (which I can't stop him from getting to) and 4, which he won't get to see when I start blowing up his mana. The best thing he could do is drop Survival+activate once. Meh.

I would play:
T1: Vial, go.
T2: untap, Vial in Fanatic, kill his bird, Waste his land, and Therapy him, putting him back to 1 mana in all probability. You'll let him have a turn on 3 mana but he has nothing to Witness back unless his second land is a fetch, so he probably won't even do that, instead dicking around with Survival. If he was super lucky he drew Uktabi Orangutan and that sucks but what are those odds.

T3: put Vial's trigger on the stack, Vial in Lackey, kick Vial up to 2 counters, draw a card, and take it from there. You still have Pyrokinesis to clear the way for Lackey and hopefully something to do with your mana this turn.

ASSASSIN
06-19-2007, 10:20 AM
Don't like sharpshooter, I would cut it for the fourth fanatic.

I suppose it's possible. The Sharpshooter could become either a Tinkerer or a 2nd Therapy.
No! Sharpshooter is very important. Before ETW was printed I understand you cut one Sharp but now you can't. You must have a solution against TES or charbelcher ETW. He help too against all aggro.
You should be play one sharp and one skirk just for test. skirk help for kill more fastly or in combo with sharp or/and SGC.
It is with skirk and sharp help I win always against ten 1/1 goblin token.


I wouldn't cut SGC, it's key for beating your worst matchups, which are combo decks.
SGC help against combo deck ? a 5CC cost ? No it is lackey why help against combo. With lackey, SGC and pile in hand you exactly put 20 in turn 3. But with warchief you can kill with matron shearch pile.


3 Krosan Grip
4 EE
4 Brightstone Ritual
4 Chalice
wow. What is this technique ?
Nothing against aggro ? Or just krosian for destroy jitte ? Brightstone Ritual in mirror when opponant play pyrokinesis and kill in response all our goblins (I know it is goblin IN PLAY).
Just krosan grip against Faerie Stompy ? So you can't win.
EE against ******** ? You want keep vial and pile in play.
Just calice against combo ? So you loose solidarity, salvager and aluren without pillar.


My question is, what would you do here?
1- You may be play against a survival. So he play other creature and you can keep pyrokinesis for after kill more creature.
2- Put a lackey is not good because you haven't interessant gob to put (SGC, ringleader or warchief).
3- put a vial since you can kill bird with fanatic in turn 2, play therapy and put lackey in EOT or in your turn for pay flashback of therapy. It is interesant but no against survival
4- In my monoR version I put fanatic in turn one for kill BoP or elves when I can in turn one.
5- Without survival he cant win so play therapy in turn one is really good. But
it it the problem of therapy, we want play it in turn one but in goblin if you have not a turn one vial, lackey you have too slowly. Even fanatic help for pile and gempalm.

So if you are sure play against survival, play therapy turn one. Otherwise play vial and hope he play creature for kill they with pyrokinesis. If it is my game I play therapy I think. So I can see if it is a survival, a lftl deck or an other deck and adapte your strategy.

puddn -> go to goblin fish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5551)

Jak
06-19-2007, 02:55 PM
I was kidding around with a board like that. The ritual would be for EtW anyways.

Tacosnape
06-28-2007, 03:25 PM
Anyone ever tried Nevinyrral's Disk in Goblins? Like, seriously tried it?

It seems like in matches packing hordes of Goblin hate, it's becoming too difficult to outrace them consistently. Disk would allow Goblins to go control a bit, dropping the disk on turn 4, popping it at the end of the opponent's turn on turn 5, then exploding like only Goblins can on turn 6. Stalling until turn 5 has never been a huge problem with Goblins, given Pyrokinesis and Rishadan Port and the like.

What Disk can do:

Against anything: Sweeps every problematic artifact, enchantment, or creature you come across. This ranges from Plague to Moat to Jitte to Silver Knight to Ghostly Prison to Tarmogoyf to Crystalline-backed Sliver Hordes to whatever.

Against Black-based aggro-control: Can sweep Plagues, Jittes, and the guys carrying them in one fell swoop. Except for BW versions packing Vindicate, most can't stop the Disk once it's on the board.

Against Enchantress: Kills every enchantment on the board, on top of that stupid Argothian Enchantress you have no other way to get rid of.

Against Stax: Kaboom. The only problem here is that against faster, Geddoning versions, on occasion you might struggle to get the Disk out. Kills Bridges, Ghostly Prisons, Crucibles, Smokestacks, Exalteds, Magus of the Tabernacles, Sylvan Libraries, you name it.

Against Countersliver: Wrath. Of. God. It might get countered if they expect it, though.

Disk also has the option of allowing you to play mono-red if you choose, allowing you to improve your mirror match drastically and play more combo-hate cards.

ASSASSIN
07-03-2007, 09:22 PM
Anyone ever tried Nevinyrral's Disk in Goblins? Like, seriously tried it?

It seems like in matches packing hordes of Goblin hate, it's becoming too difficult to outrace them consistently. Disk would allow Goblins to go control a bit, dropping the disk on turn 4, popping it at the end of the opponent's turn on turn 4, then exploding like only Goblins can on turn 6. Stalling until turn 5 has never been a huge problem with Goblins, given Pyrokinesis and Rishadan Port and the like.

What Disk can do:

Against anything: Sweeps every problematic artifact, enchantment, or creature you come across. This ranges from Plague to Moat to Jitte to Silver Knight to Ghostly Prison to Tarmogoyf to Crystalline-backed Sliver Hordes to whatever.

Against Black-based aggro-control: Can sweep Plagues, Jittes, and the guys carrying them in one fell swoop. Except for BW versions packing Vindicate, most can't stop the Disk once it's on the board.

Against Enchantress: Kills every enchantment on the board, on top of that stupid Argothian Enchantress you have no other way to get rid of.

Against Stax: Kaboom. The only problem here is that against faster, Geddoning versions, on occasion you might struggle to get the Disk out. Kills Bridges, Ghostly Prisons, Crucibles, Smokestacks, Exalteds, Magus of the Tabernacles, Sylvan Libraries, you name it.

Against Countersliver: Wrath. Of. God. It might get countered if they expect it, though.

Disk also has the option of allowing you to play mono-red if you choose, allowing you to improve your mirror match drastically and play more combo-hate cards.
disk for combo ? All combo kill before the turn 4 and the only solution can help you is your mana denial so if you are all tapped for put it you certainly dead the next turn (may be except against aluren/salvager but after side they break a deed before make the combo so it is the same). If you survive until the turn 5 against ETW you win. And if it is a big problem put one sharp (in SB if you want), you can also kill all tokens in turn 5 and kill they in turn 3 (with lackey+warchief+matron or skirk+warchief+sharp) and more regulary in turn 4 (with warchief in turn 3 and matron + sharp in turn 4 or with two matron and one vial).
And you side in disk against combo ? For me it is impossible. Look my table of side :
- TES : +4 chalice +4 pyrokinésie +3 pillar
- CRET belcher : +4 chalice +4 pyrokinésie
- IGG : +4 chalice +3 pillar +2 REB
- solidarity : +4 chalice +3 pillar +2 REB
-aluren : +3 pillar + 2 REB
-salvager : +3 pillar +2 pyrokinésie
So I have 5 card to side in against combo-controle, add other card is bad for the aggro tactic (and it is important against they)

But I'm agree it is an interessant option against countersliver, stax, enchantress and new black aggressive deck. I have anarchy against countersliver (crystalline, sinew, plated), enchantress (her only threat : confinement) and stax (ghostly prison) and kill also. They help me one turn before disk and erase only the opponant table.
Against black (and plague in general) I accept the loose when have two plague in play. I prefer play one king and shearch it with king. I win the first game and I try kill a second time fastly and put one king for resist to the first plague. But it is a match-up when you have a better solution than me. The problem is the match is completely dependant to the opponant's hand and it is the same with and without disk I think.

When you play monoR you have normaly slots for sharp and king and you can put they in SB, play they in one and you have potentially 5 exemplary (but I hope you know that ;)).

So I have king to plague anarchy to Moat, Silver Knight, Ghostly Prison to Crystalline.

And tarmogoyf ? Thanks to you. It is my overture :). But I prefer separe my response and my explication about my tarmogoyf adaptation. So I continue in my next post.


:1: :g:
Tarmogoyf
Creature - lhurgoyf

Tarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (the card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal.)

*/1+*
This card (a remake of Lhurgoyf) with an unpronounceable name was edited in Future Sight and autorised in tournament in last June, 20th. Quickly Tarmogoyf was integrate in ********. And after see this power I see adaptation of deck for tarmogoyf (gro, WUBG fish, tarmogeddon).

Personally I understand quickly the problem and test a lot against UGR treshgro (4 mongoose, 4 tarmogoyf, 4 quirion dryad). Have always a fetch and a cantrip in graveyarf so the tarmogoyf come into play obligatory in 2/3. But in fact ***** alway try to counter your turn one lackey and vial so tarmo is 3/4 in turn 2 and 4/5 if the cantrip is a serum vision. And no matter if the tarmo is "only" 2/3 because the only burn you play are fanatic and gempalm. And they come in grave (so boost the tarmo) before cause damage. And he attacks in turn 3 and become an aggressive deck with a big back-up. So It is impossible to win.

And I alway loose because all sideboard solution I know in my monoR are bad :
-chalice @ 1 : my old solution. They block the half of the deck. But before with it in table the ***** player can't have quickly the ******** so I have all my time for put goblins. Now with a tarmogoyf 3/4 in turn 2 you prefer play goblin in begin of game for try to kill it.
-tormod's crypt : only remove her graveyard when you have always creature and artifact and regulary a wasteland is bad.
-pyrostitac pillar : I never like this card and now you want put a swarm for hope kill the tarmo it is out of question.
-pyrokinesis : let out two cards when have 10 or 11 counter in opponant hand are really bad.
-Nevinyrral's Disk : too long. And can be counter by daze, FOW, counterspell and daze.
-red elemental blast : it is alway the same utilisation : help to play my spells. It is the better card to side in with my old version.
-pyrokinesis + REB : ca avait la gueule d'une bonne solution. Sauf que même si je gére un tarmogoyf j'ai pas gagné pour autant. Or sortir autant de gob et user autant de carte pour gérer un tarmogoyf c'est enrayer la mécanique plus qu'au raisonnable.

One week before I speak about gobbo one-slot and I think about sparkmith. I put in and test and when I come in play in turn 2 or 3 he can change a game because he put one or two damage in plus than gempalm.

So that it my version when tarmo was autorised in legacy :
13 mountain
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 aether vial
4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin matrone
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin ringleader
2 Sieg-gang commander
1 skirk prospector
1 sparkmith
1 goblin tinkerer
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 goblin king
SB : 4 chalice of the void
SB : 4 pyrokinesis
SB : 3 pyrostatic pillar
SB : 2 red elemental blast
SB : 2 anarchy

In 06/23 in a small tournament I play against a treshgro in two consecutive round (final round and in top) and win 4/0. I win because my opponant play only 3 tarmo, sacrifice one in a mistake, I have a incredible game (T1 vial, T2 vial EOT lackey, T3 tarmo block lackey and I put one other lackey, one sparkmith and cycle a gempalm ^^) and because he have quite bad hand and it is a new player. But it is one of my more difficults matchs I have never played.

And in the last big (+/- 40 players) tournament in Paris, in 06/30 have 16 tarmogoyf in the top8 :o. I don't know if you are the same problem but the card it is may be played in all the world. So I must try a good solution or change deck if I want continue to win.

So now I test this version :

6 mountain
3 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
2 plateau
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland

4 aether vial
3 sword to plowshare

4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin matrone
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin ringleader
1 skirk prospector
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 Sieg-gang commander

SB : 4 chalice of the void
SB : 4 pyrokinesis
SB : 3 pyrostatic pillar
SB : 2 red elemental blast
SB : 2 disenchant

I add a land because with fetch and waste in plateau I need more land. With stp sparkmith is out-of-date, disenchant is a better solution than king against plague and if I play disenchant I test to cut tinkerer. And finally I never like the second SGC.

pyrokinesis is really essential against FS and ETW and is better than stp in the mirror so I test but I wannot cut they.
stp + disenchant need help and give to you a better response than anarchy (except for crystalline).

Do you have the same problem with tarmogoyf ? What is our solutions ?

Tacosnape
07-04-2007, 03:23 PM
My solution to Tarmogoyf is Terror.

No, I'm not kidding. I'm currently running a B/G/R build with 3 maindeck Terror and 1 maindeck Hooligan, with playsets of Cabal Therapy and Engineered Explosives in the sideboard. Explosives in 3-color answers Plague, Tarmogoyf, and Empty the Warrens all rather nicely.

For reference,

2 Mountain
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
3 Terror

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Duress/Pithing Needle/Tormod's Crypt/Krosan Grip

C.P.
07-04-2007, 03:40 PM
My solution to Tarmogoyf is Terror.

No, I'm not kidding. I'm currently running a B/G/R build with 3 maindeck Terror and 1 maindeck Hooligan, with playsets of Cabal Therapy and Engineered Explosives in the sideboard. Explosives in 3-color answers Plague, Tarmogoyf, and Empty the Warrens all rather nicely.


Can I ask why StP is worse than Terror in terms of splash? I can see Therapy being great addition, but Terror(or smother, for that matter) seems bit weak. Also, is 3c mana base affordable with full set of Port and Wasteland?

Also, Meekstone, along with StP, has been the answer of coice in my team's Goblin SB. It's been pretty solid so far.

Tacosnape
07-04-2007, 06:12 PM
Can I ask why StP is worse than Terror in terms of splash? I can see Therapy being great addition, but Terror(or smother, for that matter) seems bit weak. Also, is 3c mana base affordable with full set of Port and Wasteland?

Also, Meekstone, along with StP, has been the answer of coice in my team's Goblin SB. It's been pretty solid so far.

(Shrug) Black provides Therapy and White doesn't. The only other white card you would possibly want to run that Green can't give you identical or better versions of might be Armageddon, and meh. Goblins likey mana.

To counterpoint, you don't lose a lot by running Terror over Swords to Plowshares. Let's look at the list of things commonly played in Legacy that Terror can't get rid of but Swords to Plowshares can.

Blue: There aren't any. Worthy of note, however, is that Terror is about ten times better than Swords to Plowshares against Faerie Stompy due to Chalice-1 frequency. (Unless they drop a Juggernaut, but oh well.)

Red: Goblin Lackey, arguably, as Terror can be too slow. However, you generally don't want to search up dual lands in a Goblin mirror anyway.

Green: None I can think of.

White: Unless people started running Paladin En-Vec or White Knight recently, none I can think of. Possibly Mother of Runes due to the fact that STP can kill it before it gets a chance to use its ability, but you can always just Terror (Or Gempalm) it in response to its ability being used.

Black: Okay, everything, excluding Order of the Ebon Hand. Black creatures tend to eat it to Pyrokinesis and Engineered Explosives, however. Confidant even eats it to Mogg Fanatic. Tombstalker could suck a lot, though.

Artifact: All of them, but do people run Artifact Creatures anymore? Outside of the rogue Duplicant or Triskelion in Survival, or the occasional Juggernaut in a Chalice deck, they're rare nowadays. Besides, Tin-Street Hooligan takes care of them. Mishra's Factory turning into an Assembly Worker is probably the most threatening artifact creature in the format, and Wasteland and Port are there for that.

Multicolored: Mystic Enforcer. The biggie.

If you're dead sold on Swords, a 4-Color version could be made to make EE take out Moat (Take -that-, Enchantress.), or a RWG version could be made to do the same thing. I just find Therapy to be insane in Goblins from testing, and running 3 colors with a quad of EE's gives you outs to your biggest hate cards (Plague, Solitary Confinement, Jitte, you name it), while giving you answers to all the Empty the Warrens decks in the world AND to Tarmogoyf.

Plus, Terror's pretty freaking good.

EDIT: Alternately, if you REALLY hate both Engineered Plague (and Enchantress), you can go RWG and run Ray of Revelation.

Obfuscate Freely
07-04-2007, 09:35 PM
Did you consider Terminate? It doesn't kill Silver Knight, I guess. It kills everything else, though.

Snuff out is probably worth looking at, as well.

Could you just run your own Tarmogoyfs? Fanatic and Incinerator let you break stand-offs, and extra threats are better than dead removal spells against creature-light decks.

Tacosnape
07-05-2007, 12:21 AM
Did you consider Terminate? It doesn't kill Silver Knight, I guess. It kills everything else, though.

Snuff out is probably worth looking at, as well.

Could you just run your own Tarmogoyfs? Fanatic and Incinerator let you break stand-offs, and extra threats are better than dead removal spells against creature-light decks.

Terror's easier to cast than Terminate (Off Badlands/Port or Badlands/Waste) and hits the pro-red guys, which is one of the other main reasons I feel a removal spell should be run. However, honestly, I kind of momentarily forgot Terminate existed, so I'll have to go back and reexamine.

Snuff Out isn't a bad option at all though. Even though 4 life is expensive, the tempo would make a pretty solid difference. I might try this.

As for running my own Tarmogoyfs, eh. You -could-, but against certain decks they'd be questionable. A removal spell fixes lots of other problems as well. Terror clears a creature that's set to block Lackey, as well as taking out guys equipped with a Jitte, as well as getting the Tarmogoyf off the board and letting you swing through with your Goblin horde.

I'll probably give Snuff Out some playtime though. It's not a bad idea at all.

Nihil Credo
07-05-2007, 01:42 AM
Maybe Diabolic Edict instead of Terror? The logic is this: you want to splash removal for the creatures that can't be handled by Fanatic, Incinerator, or Pyrokinesis. So, once you've handled those, your Edict will hit the dangerous creatures like Silver Knight, 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, etc.

Thoughts?

Tacosnape
07-05-2007, 02:01 AM
Maybe Diabolic Edict instead of Terror? The logic is this: you want to splash removal for the creatures that can't be handled by Fanatic, Incinerator, or Pyrokinesis. So, once you've handled those, your Edict will hit the dangerous creatures like Silver Knight, 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, etc.

Thoughts?

Diabolic Edict doesn't work if they lead with Mongoose.

After two short games and a shower and some thinking, I really like Snuff Out. Snuff Out is like, free creature removal spell 5-8, leaving all your mana to focus on Port or dropping Goblins.

Citrus-God
07-05-2007, 05:14 PM
Personally, I think Engineered Explosives would be awesome in this deck... here's my list...


// Lands 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
4 Mountain


// Creatures 33
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Warcheif
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incenerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander


// Spells 4
4 AEther Vial


// Sideboard 15
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyrokinesis


I still think Cabal Therapies are very strong in the Goblin mirrors. EE can answer EtW tokens, and random crap like E-Plague, Tarmogoyf, and much more. Sadly, it's a huge expense, but in return, you get versatility.

EE can fight a lot, but it is very mana hungry. Ever EEed for 4? Ever killed 3 Goyfs at once? I sure as hell have. Thankfully, it's worth the expense. Only part I see EE is flawed in is against Goblins.

Bardu
07-05-2007, 09:01 PM
I've been playing Engineered Explosives in this deck for a while. It really helps alot vs. Threshold, Fish, or really any deck loaded with 1 & 2 drops. Obviously it also doubles as an answer to combo nowadays, since combo goes aggro against Goblins with Empty the Warrens. It's just icing on the cake that you can use it as answer to Engineered Plague as well. And decks that pack plague are often running Confidant, Jitte, and Cursed Scroll which also make good excellent Explosive "targets." Versatility really helps in this diverse of a format.

Tacosnape
07-05-2007, 11:33 PM
I think it's a reach to count on EE being able to hit for four, because this means you actually have to hit four colored lands consistently, which Goblins struggles to do. Hell, some games I'm happy to hit two. On occasion, hitting three to off a Plague is tough, but fortunately Therapy does double duty in Plague Hate.

@Anti: Therefore I'm not convinced your rogue Plateau buys you much of anything at all without a single white spell in the deck. Wouldn't this be better served as a Taiga or Badlands, making you more able to hit green and black consistently? What exactly do you want to blow up with an EE at 4? Moat? Mystic Enforcer?

APriestOfGix
07-07-2007, 01:44 AM
So recently MANY top players who have written articals about Goblins, are saying it's no longer the deck to play. It has many strengths and many weaknesses, and they say it's weaknesses are outweighing it's strengths.

Pro's:
Amazingly Consistent
Easy(er) to Play
Smashes bad/random decks
Great for Long Tournaments because of the above 2
Cards easy To Obtain

Con's:
Rolls over and dies to Combo Game 1 (don't flame yet wait for it...)
It's expected -> Hated
Combo is on the rise
Splashes make the deck less consistent and more "Wastable"


(dies to combo in the un-fixed lists...)


That said, i think that Goblins is still very viable meta choice. The main problem is that it dies to combo, but CotV, and P-SP have helped.



1) So are the pro's onto something and Goblins is dying? Or are CotV strong enough Maindeck to stop the combo's.

2) What is the best anti-Combo hate? (CotV, Pillar, Others?)

3) Is Goblins worth building and playing? Assuming a new player owns none of the cards, is the deck worth shilling out $80 for Drivers, $80 for Lacky's and then $ for duals for the splash?

4) Should Goblins be splashing? Or is CotV and Pillar and other Red cards good enough to handle it's problems?

ForceofWill
07-07-2007, 02:02 AM
1. Goblins is a deck that can win any match. Thats how it works but most adepts are trying to innovate as well as not play a deck that doesn't have as many options.

2. Both CotV and Pillar are needed as 4 ofs in some combo of main/sb

3. Where are you buying your cards $32 for lackey set and at most $48 for drivers.

4. Yes need to splash to deal with the hate cards such as e plague.

Tacosnape
07-07-2007, 03:39 AM
Goblins hasn't been the deck to play for several months. It might never be again, but one can't be sure.

In fact, I think the closest it has been to being such was in the Flash metagame, because you could pinpoint-tune the hate to give it almost a 50-50 Flash match and completely run over all the Flash-Hate aggro-control.

That said, Goblins is still a strong deck, and all hate focus aside, one of -the- strongest. It will resurface in about a year once people dose down the Goblin hate, but as of right now, I've seen people packing 7-10 cards in sideboard to deal with Goblins in 15-person tournaments where there are 0-1 Goblin decks. This is a gross example of paranoia overtaking common sense. The regrettable part is that Goblin players will suffer as a result of this.

Goblins, meanwhile, has to deal with four things:

1. Combo
2. Enchantments
3. Artifacts
4. Creatures that Pyrokinesis can't kill (Silver Knight / Tarmogoyf and the like)

Goblins' previous plan to deal with this has been as follows:
1. Chalice of the Void/Pyrostatic Pillar/Red Elemental Blast
2. Disenchant/Tranquil Domain/Krosan Grip/Ignoring all but Plague which is dealt with Goblin King, Shared Triumph, or Patron of the Akki.
3. Tin-Street Hooligan/Goblin Tinkerer/Disenchant/Krosan Grip/Shattering Spree
4. Swords to Plowshares/Ignoring them and swinging with a horde of 15+ Goblins.

Now here's what's wrong with several of those solutions in the modern metagame.

Chalice: Still pretty decent, but Simian Spirit Guide's printing made Chalice significantly weaker.
Pillar: Solidarity isn't the combo deck to beat anymore. Everything's either faster than Pillar or capable of circumventing it with Tendrils of Agony.
REB: The two top combo decks don't run Blue. Or, well, one doesn't run blue and the other runs Diminishing Returns. Zoop Zoop.
Disenchant: It's single-shot, counterable, and weakens Ringleader. Rarely worthwhile.
Ignoring Enchantments: Solitary Confinement is everywhere. So is Ghostly Prison. Plus, there are too many Plagues to effectively deal with by means other than removing them.
Ignoring un-Kinesisable creatures: The speed of non-goblin aggro and aggro-control has jumped up. This means you have less time to safely build up your horde.

Swords to Plowshares, Tranquil Domain, Krosan Grip, and Tin-Street Hooligan all remain viable options to solve their problems. Chalice is still fairly solid also, despite SSG hurting it a little.

So what we need are cards that deal with our four problems. So here are a few cards I suggest are worth looking at:

Engineered Explosives: Thanks to Empty the Warrens, this is one of the few cards that can be effective against all four of Goblins' biggest problems. In order to make it hit the biggest problem (Plague) however, you need three colors.

Cabal Therapy/Duress: Indisputably good against all forms of Combo, as well as helping against Artifacts and Enchantments. Therapy can also hit the creatures, like Tarmogoyf.

Vindicate: Untested and bizarre, it could work in some sort of RBW Goblins packing Explosives, Therapy, and Swords. Vindicate deals with all of Goblins' problems except for Combo.

Pithing Needle: An old favorite. Easy to cast and use. It deals with certain artifacts and enchantments and certain combo decks, as well as stopping other random things. Not overwhelmingly strong, but very versatile.

The trick in keeping goblins competitive, I feel, is finding the right sideboard/maindeck choice from a mixture of these cards and the current staples.

kicks_422
07-07-2007, 04:04 AM
The trick in keeping goblins competitive, I feel, is finding the right sideboard/maindeck choice from a mixture of these cards and the current staples.

I agree. However, there are only a certain number of slots that you can have for non-Goblins in the MD. That's the problem right there... Fitting in too many hate-the-hate cards just turns Goblins into a mediocre aggro deck.

That said, I'm finding the blue splash to be really strong. Stifles and Daze realy compliment the mana-denial theme, and SB bounce is really nice.

Gekoratel
07-11-2007, 07:25 PM
So is this deck really as dead as people make it out to be, I'm just curious for when the next legacy tourny rolls around I'll prob be playing this deck regardless of how awful it is. Also it seems like almost no decks are running Wasteland right now so a 3 color mana-base is easy to support. It worked well for me at the GP and it seems like it would be fine in the current meta.

Something like:
5 Duals - 3/2 split based on what is needed more
8 Fetches
2 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Port

Shriekmaw
07-11-2007, 07:53 PM
A lot of players are saying right now that Goblins isn't that good in the current Legacy metagame. I do agree that Goblins may not be as good as it once was when combo was rarely played, but I think the deck is still very good that can win large tournaments.

As Wasteland has disappeared for the most part in the current Legacy metagame, I think it makes sense that you can play 2 splashes right now in Goblins if you choose. If you do decide on taking Goblins into a large tourney, I think it would make sense to have your Goblins build focus more on beating the combo matchup since that probably is your worse matchup.

Goblins will always show up in good numbers because it still is very good and no one can deny that.

PwnerOfNoobz
07-11-2007, 10:08 PM
I have played again goblins and have played them enough to now that vial goblins is posiably one of the best decks out there....but i still think it has a shitty match up again u/w control fish cause they both run a decnt amount of creatues but fish has the pro red guysa nd the jitts and swords and counter back up...and in my case i run wrath of god in my board.

ASSASSIN
07-11-2007, 10:22 PM
UW fish with sliver knight is not a big problem, UWb fish with sliver + jitte + 4 plague SB is more hard to beat.
But please stop with WoG. A-NAR-CHY! It is your solution. Kill sliver, jotun and meddling and don't touch in your hord. anarchy + pyrokinesis in SB is THE solution against aggro and aggro-controle (except ******** or other treshgro).

Tacosnape
07-11-2007, 11:39 PM
Anarchy nothing. Engineered Explosives solves all of that jank. Goblins would be fine if we could just run like nine of them.:tongue:

My more recent stance on 3-color Goblins is to make it 2-color with a single random Dual thrown in strictly for bumping EE to 3. So, for example, if you're playing R/G, you do something like this:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

I'm currently playing R/B, though. In case its relevant.

NQN
07-14-2007, 08:48 PM
What do you think about E.Explosives Maindeck? I made the experience that i want to board them in every Match...List would be like that:
4 Taiga
1 Plateau(to pump EE to 3):wink:
4 bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Waste
4 Rishadan Port

4 Warchief
4 Ringleade
4 matrone
4 Piledriver
4 Lackey
3 Fanatic
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege Gang
1 Ib halfheart (Just incredible, not sure whether this guy or G.King)
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Tin-Street-hooligan (Jitte sucks)

4 AEther Vial
2 Engineered Explosives(Kills 1-2 Goofys and the whole fish deck, a maindeck solution for Empty the Warrens)

Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokenisis
4 Chalice of the VOid
1 TIn-Street Hooligan
1xxx

Greetz,NQN:wink:

Tacosnape
07-17-2007, 12:20 AM
I think EE Main isn't a terrible idea in Goblins. But not a great one either.

The thing about Goblins is basically this. It's essentially a 56-58 card deck (Lands, Vials, and Goblins) with a 17-19 card sideboard, where you get to maindeck 2-4 of your sideboard cards. This makes it very much a metagame or preference call as to what you maindeck.

Engineered Explosives gives you the random blind out against a lot of things you struggle to handle otherwise, like maindeck pro-red guys with Jittes, maindeck Solitary Confinements, maindeck Tarmogoyfs, and a fast Empty the Warrens.

However, it's worth noting that Engineered Explosives is a mana whore. It's generally going to take 3-4 mana to use to its normal capabilities, and occasionally 5. Goblins generally wants most of its maindeck nongoblin spells to cost between 0 and 2. The 2-mana slot has always been Goblins' weakest point (This is a large reason why Port goes so well in Goblins), and things that are 1 or 0 (Pyrokinesis, Crypt) are simply easy to cast.

Granted, you can split the Engineered Explosives up. But I still think its inclusion maindeck is debatable.

NQN
07-17-2007, 08:40 AM
Well, i play in a metagame full of Fish and Grow decks where i want to board explosives in every game, so i think its worth the slot. My biggest problem preboard are 2 Tarmogoyfs(one isnt strong enough against my horde) and Jitte+Random Critter(TIn-Street...) and explosives can solve both and many more like EtW or DoJ token...
So far
NQN

ASSASSIN
07-17-2007, 11:19 AM
Well, i play in a metagame full of Fish and Grow decks where i want to board explosives in every game, so i think its worth the slot. My biggest problem preboard are 2 Tarmogoyfs(one isnt strong enough against my horde) and Jitte+Random Critter(TIn-Street...) and explosives can solve both and many more like EtW or DoJ token...
So far
NQN
stp is THE solution against deck with only one or two threats. Add 4 pyrokinesis in SB (against all aggro, aggro-controle without blue and EtW) and 1 sharp MD and you have consistents solutions.

Our splash with 4 color is really incredible. Just for one card you broke the mana base. You play a deck with a monocolor base and YOU have the mana denial option. So you want a lot of moutains in play.
EE is similar to chalice. He have a potential against all decks but he destroy to card you control, is to hard to cast. So when you think about they you think they are solution against 60% of the metagame. But test they, is not the reality.

aTn
07-17-2007, 01:42 PM
As a Gro player, I find EE less of a problem that StoP. Most Gro builds I've seen lately run 2 Needles maindeck (+ 3-4 Stifle), so there is a chance that EE's activated ability will either not bet usable or will get countered.

Against EtW decks, some Goblin players in my area have started to put Tremor in their SB; I don't know if it's overkill... Depends on the meta I guess...

thefreakaccident
07-18-2007, 05:32 AM
At the duel land open (a side event for the PT) I saw a RB goblins deck, it was facing off with pikula...

I saw the most janky thing on the planet, and was wondering if it would need any consideration for the goblin community, he played an enchantment (the goblin player did) called dralnu's crusade.

an enchantment that makes all goblins also zombies, as well as giving them all +1/+1.

Would this be a decent answer against E.Plague?

he ended up getting 3 of these out with the pikula player only having 2 plagues (simply put, the pikula player got raped over time)... It just seems like worthless jank to me, but who knows.

Tacosnape
07-18-2007, 02:46 PM
It's not all -that- Janky. A guy whose name has temporarily escaped my mind ran two in a sideboard of RB Goblins in a tournament that has also temporarily escaped my mind and took first place.

(Goes and looks all that up)

Ok, Bennett Toms, at Running Gagg 2.

I personally wouldn't run it, but then again, Bennett Toms is probably a better player than me.

jrp
07-18-2007, 04:31 PM
@Taco - First, Bennett Toms is most definitely not a better player than you - just believe me on this one...

Second, Dralnu's Crusade is incredibly janky and terrible, however, it is one of the few options available to R/b to fight Engineered Plague. This is one of the reasons that R/g is preferred in most metagames (Krosan Grip is a much more versatile card than Dralnu's Crusade and can answer things ranging from engineered plagues, moats, ensnaring bridges, humilities, ..., etc.). If my metagame warranted the black splash (i.e. too much Belcher, etc.), I think I would choose to play a deck other than goblins, as to avoid having to play shitty cards like Dralnu's Crusade just to battle potential Engineered Plagues.

DrJones
07-18-2007, 05:04 PM
Isn't just better to run Goblin King?

Or are you debating running Dralnu's Crusade in addition to Goblin King?

Eldariel
07-18-2007, 05:44 PM
King is a creature and always dies. He's horrible at fighting Plague, especially since a second Plague nails him as well and makes him dead. Dralnu's is a mainstay anti-Plague card in Rb, and one of the very few alternatives (mostly just Patron of the Akki). Unfortunately you're forced to run it in straight Rb since you have little else in terms of alternatives and you can't rely on discard to nail Plagues effectively enough.

I did an elaborate listing of sideboarding alternatives with Goblins at MTGS on request, starting with Artifacts and Red cards, then going progressively through the four other colours. If you're interested or would find such useful, look here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=2110605#post2110605

DrJones
07-18-2007, 05:50 PM
That list doesn't include Goblin Caves. If the purpose is to avoid Engineered Plague, I think it would be better than splashing black (unless the opponent runs sinkhole, which very few do).

EDIT: Dralnu's Crusade is as bad under 2 Engineered Plague as goblin king, so I'm a bit lost here about your points.

Tacosnape
07-18-2007, 05:57 PM
I prefer to just deal with Engineered Plague via Cabal Therapy and Engineered Explosives, or Tranquil Domain and Engineered Explosives in green.

Phantom
07-18-2007, 06:09 PM
EDIT: Dralnu's Crusade is as bad under 2 Engineered Plague as goblin king, so I'm a bit lost here about your points.

How ya figure? King dies with 2 Plagues down and you lose since you can't play another Goblin. With crusade and 2 Plagues down, Goblins are getting -1/-1, so you can still drop a few and have them live.

I've never been a fan of Grip/Domain/Disenchant as Plague answers. I've run them, but never loved them. I'm more of a fan of boarding in more mana denial (in mono) or discard (in black splash). Clearly, these are not perfect answers, but I prefer a slightly worse aggresive answer to a decent passive answer.

Tacosnape
07-18-2007, 06:18 PM
I've never been a fan of Grip/Domain/Disenchant as Plague answers. I've run them, but never loved them. I'm more of a fan of boarding in more mana denial (in mono) or discard (in black splash). Clearly, these are not perfect answers, but I prefer a slightly worse aggresive answer to a decent passive answer.

I think in large part the reason I agree with this is that 1-for-1'ing in Goblins is a bad idea due to the fact that card for card, Goblins doesn't match up to other decks in the format. It's the incredible synergy and insane card advantage and tempo cheating that give it its advantages.

This is why as far as straight up targeted removal goes, I prefer Ray of Revelation for enchantments. 1 Ray of Revelation will get rid of two Plagues even if they aren't played at the same time. I don't play Ray of Revelation because it locks me into a color set I don't like. But in RWG, it's solid.

Eldariel
07-18-2007, 06:25 PM
That list doesn't include Goblin Caves. If the purpose is to avoid Engineered Plague, I think it would be better than splashing black (unless the opponent runs sinkhole, which very few do).

EDIT: Dralnu's Crusade is as bad under 2 Engineered Plague as goblin king, so I'm a bit lost here about your points.

Not only what Phantom said, but with two Plagues in play, you can't play any Kings you draw, while you can play Crusades to nullify the Plagues. As for Goblin Caves, that's incredibly janky and Goblins without Power aren't very impressive against...well, anything. You'd basically rely on Piledrivers to win there. The land can kinda be destroyed too. And yea, Patron of the Akki is still superior as it's proactive and it wins fast, not giving them time to capitalize on their Plague.

ninjabear
07-23-2007, 06:00 AM
I think that one of the things Vial Goblins excels at is being aggressive. Maindeck Vial Goblins has no little "answers" to anything... it expects the other player to be the one answering. That's the fundamental edge aggro has over control, right? All my cards are threats; you better remove them all, or you are dead. Many times, you don't have the right answers at the right time.

So, going the Krosan Grip / Tranquil Domain way is trying to switch to the mentality of a Control player. You should be the one putting aggressive cards, not them. Dralnu's Crusade has the advantage of never being a dead card (what's the use of a Krosan Grip in hand when there are no Engineered Plagues in play yet? just a target for Duress?). The deck relies mainly on aggro and land destruction as its control component. Goblin plan against Wrath of God is not giving them enough white mana to cast it, right? Why not endorse that way of thinking and putting more mana denial? I think, personally, that Patron of the Akki / Dralnu's Crusade are more synergistic with the deck than going Krosan Grip / Tranquil Domain. Though it's absolutely true that Krosan Grip is a far more versatile card, specially against decks like Scepter Chant.

I would say that most damaging enchantments are white (Worship, Solitary Confinement, Moat, Humility). And as most white players seem to be really fond of Silver Knight, Paladin en-Vec, and Mother of the Runes against goblins, I would dare to say to use Anarchy. White is not so underplayed as most people say (though it's imho the weakest color right now). If your meta is full of Survival of the Fittest or infested with Engineered Plagues, then it's true that it might be a weak card.

Just my two euro cents.

ASSASSIN
07-23-2007, 08:01 AM
I think that one of the things Vial Goblins excels at is being aggressive. Maindeck Vial Goblins has no little "answers" to anything... it expects the other player to be the one answering. That's the fundamental edge aggro has over control, right? All my cards are threats; you better remove them all, or you are dead. Many times, you don't have the right answers at the right time.

So, going the Krosan Grip / Tranquil Domain way is trying to switch to the mentality of a Control player. You should be the one putting aggressive cards, not them. Dralnu's Crusade has the advantage of never being a dead card (what's the use of a Krosan Grip in hand when there are no Engineered Plagues in play yet? just a target for Duress?). The deck relies mainly on aggro and land destruction as its control component. Goblin plan against Wrath of God is not giving them enough white mana to cast it, right? Why not endorse that way of thinking and putting more mana denial? I think, personally, that Patron of the Akki / Dralnu's Crusade are more synergistic with the deck than going Krosan Grip / Tranquil Domain. Though it's absolutely true that Krosan Grip is a far more versatile card, specially against decks like Scepter Chant.

I would say that most damaging enchantments are white (Worship, Solitary Confinement, Moat, Humility). And as most white players seem to be really fond of Silver Knight, Paladin en-Vec, and Mother of the Runes against goblins, I would dare to say to use Anarchy. White is not so underplayed as most people say (though it's imho the weakest color right now). If your meta is full of Survival of the Fittest or infested with Engineered Plagues, then it's true that it might be a weak card.

Just my two euro cents.
It is an interessant point of view, but I think it is wrong. The target of the sideboard is not add aggressivity, sideboard give control cards for slow up or destroy the opponant.
If you want play an aggressive sideboard play Price of progress, sirocco too.
But the deck wants arms to slow up combo and control, for control aggro until he flood the table, to kill a problematic creature or artifact against aggro-controle and finally wants solution against the worse problems (plague, proR, confinement...).

And it is a choice of players have not little answers. In my build I try have they with the matron tool box (sharp against ETW, tinkerer against an artifact, king against plague, sparkmith against a boring creature, skirk for kill without attack). With the metagame evolution I keep 3 stp for have a solution against tarmogoyf, but it is too an answer.

If you have a dead card is not a problem if it resolve the only problem of the opponant deck. And patron of the Akki give to you solution against plague and big creature but it is regulary a dead card too if you have not an other gob in table :).


In a French forum I read dralnu's crusade is too a card against massacre, infest and pyroclasm. But do you side it against deck have they (********, rift, landstill UR and other controle with R, salvager) ? And I read it is good against ALL proR but I hope you don't side it against FS ?

ninjabear
07-24-2007, 12:23 PM
It is an interessant point of view, but I think it is wrong. The target of the sideboard is not add aggressivity, sideboard give control cards for slow up or destroy the opponant.
My theory is to put in the sideboard the cards that give you an edge against the decks you will most likely see and you suffer the most against.


If you want play an aggressive sideboard play Price of progress, sirocco too.

Sirocco is a card only against Solidarity. I prefer my sideboard cards to cover 2 or 3 decks. Pyrostatic Pillar answers more decks than Sirocco, so I prefer the Pillar.


But the deck wants arms to slow up combo and control, for control aggro until he flood the table, to kill a problematic creature or artifact against aggro-control and finally wants solution against the worse problems (plague, proR, confinement...).

That's true. Against combo there are no creature threats you can bring, so the only solution is complementing your secondary strategy, disruption. Chalice of the Void is great for that. Land destruction is great against Solidarity. Hand destruction if you splash black.


And it is a choice of players have not little answers. In my build I try have they with the matron tool box (sharp against ETW, tinkerer against an artifact, king against plague, sparkmith against a boring creature, skirk for kill without attack). With the metagame evolution I keep 3 stp for have a solution against tarmogoyf, but it is too an answer.

That's a good idea, but then you will start drawing into random Skirk Prospectors when you would have like to see a Fanatic. To kill without attacking you already have "B-plan" via Siege-Gang Commander. Though I also think 1 "Matronable" Prospector is a good idea.

If you have a dead card is not a problem if it resolve the only problem of the opponant deck. And patron of the Akki give to you solution against plague and big creature but it is regulary a dead card too if you have not an other gob in table :).
It's not an optimal card, so I wouldn't put it maindeck; but it can enable some really fast wins (think of it like a instant speed piledriver with a fat ass with... inconvenients :) ). And most people is not ready to deal against that monster when facing goblin deck, so to some degree it has a "rogue" quality.

In a French forum I read dralnu's crusade is too a card against massacre, infest and pyroclasm. But do you side it against deck have they (********, rift, landstill UR and other controle with R, salvager) ? And I read it is good against ALL proR but I hope you don't side it against FS ?
If your meta has a lot of those cards, then yes, Dralnu's Crusade is nice. Deals with plague in a non-reactive way, and is good against Protection from Red creatures (except for Paladin en-Vec). I also like that splashing black allows you to use Cabal Therapy / Duress, some pretty good cards against combo, your worst fear. But leaves you defenseless against enchants :(

Sorry, but right now I don't know what FS stands for.

puddn
07-25-2007, 11:47 AM
FS stands Faerie Stompy

Happy Gilmore
07-25-2007, 03:54 PM
I think that one of the things Vial Goblins excels at is being aggressive. Maindeck Vial Goblins has no little "answers" to anything... it expects the other player to be the one answering. That's the fundamental edge aggro has over control, right? All my cards are threats; you better remove them all, or you are dead. Many times, you don't have the right answers at the right time.

So, going the Krosan Grip / Tranquil Domain way is trying to switch to the mentality of a Control player. You should be the one putting aggressive cards, not them. Dralnu's Crusade has the advantage of never being a dead card (what's the use of a Krosan Grip in hand when there are no Engineered Plagues in play yet? just a target for Duress?). The deck relies mainly on aggro and land destruction as its control component. Goblin plan against Wrath of God is not giving them enough white mana to cast it, right? Why not endorse that way of thinking and putting more mana denial? I think, personally, that Patron of the Akki / Dralnu's Crusade are more synergistic with the deck than going Krosan Grip / Tranquil Domain. Though it's absolutely true that Krosan Grip is a far more versatile card, specially against decks like Scepter Chant.

I would say that most damaging enchantments are white (Worship, Solitary Confinement, Moat, Humility). And as most white players seem to be really fond of Silver Knight, Paladin en-Vec, and Mother of the Runes against goblins, I would dare to say to use Anarchy. White is not so underplayed as most people say (though it's imho the weakest color right now). If your meta is full of Survival of the Fittest or infested with Engineered Plagues, then it's true that it might be a weak card.

Just my two euro cents.

In that case you may want to consider that playing threats may be better than answering the answers. Cards like Patron of the Akki and Goblin Goon come to mind.

TheGoblinGeneral4
07-25-2007, 08:22 PM
The 3 decks i use in legacy are: Vial Goblins(my favorite :) ), Iggy, and Solidarity... and as explosive as the combo decks are i still find gobs to be more consistant in the format... My deck list:

// MD

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Pile Driver
4 Matron
4 Fanatic
2 Siege
1 Kiki-jiki
1 Prospector
1 Hooligan
1 Sharpshooter
3 Gem-palm Incenerator
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader

//land

4 ports
4 wasteland
4 taiga
4 wooded foothill
3 bloodstained mire
5 mountain

//SB

3 Red blast
4 Krosan grip
3 pithing needle
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tinkerer
1 Patron of the Akki

the BOLD are the slots i have been experimenting with... some consider the extra 2-3 slots... and i have used everything from lightning bolt, to Rancor, and even the Jittes and i have found that 37 goblins w/ the prospector win condition MB gives the deck the umph to win most game 1s... Although i do have to say, 2-3 Rancor MB is a very nice Tool card, it gives your Piledriver/lackey Trample, so... no more chump blocking your lackeys turn 2, trample to get damage in, the rancor bounces to your hand for a piledriver... hell, i have even found Rancor on a fanatic is Tech!!!, it just has so many uses in this deck...

I am a very good goblin player, but the problem is... i need to SB better, and the deck that i have the most problem beating believe it or not, even post SB is G/U Survival!!! anyone has any suggestions on what tactics to use on survival? or is it more of a SB issue?

thanks

Silverdragon
07-25-2007, 08:27 PM
Just wanted to say that Krosan Grip has killed a lot of Moxen and Crucibles in my testing so you could in fact say it counts towards the manadenial strategy of Goblins. Same goes for Pyrokinesis killing Birds and Elves. Of course Chalice is manadenial too because you can set it at 0 to counter Moxen, Petals and LED's or set it at 1 to counter various Rituals.

ASSASSIN
07-25-2007, 10:03 PM
I am a very good goblin player
And humble! But the next time write correctly the goblin name, you will be most credible.

60 cards is better than 61.

I play kiki and it is very fun to play with it and it can be good in any situations but it is generally too expensive for his effect. You wouldn't take the vial in 5 counter and the cost of RRR is a problem.

Your side is very strange. Only 3 red blast against blue combo ? And you wouldn't 3 REB against U controle.

tinkerer + krosian grip + needle ? It is normally for the same utility.

1 patron des akki ? Only one is useless.

Your U/G survival is a ATS ? you have 3 needle, 3 REB for help needle, 4 krosan grip. But side 10 cards can affect the mecanic of the deck, side only krosan and needle, or just 1/2 REB can be better.
With that if you lose the match abandon this MU.

Eldariel
07-25-2007, 10:10 PM
You don't need to sideboard against ATS. Your maindeck trumps their strategy hard. Just beat down, deny them the mana they need to get their engines going and reap the rewards. It's one of the easiest match-ups imaginable.

If you aren't playing 4 Siege-Gang Commanders, you should never play Kiki. Even if you are, you still don't want to play Kiki. Siege-Gang is a winner. Kiki is win-more. There's a huge difference there (and no, I'm not saying you should play 4 Sieges, but you SHOULD play 4 Sieges before adding any Kikis). Prospector/Sharpshooter is fine though, Jon Sonne had it in his winning list and it can be quite handy in some metas. I personally don't like it, but being able to MD Sharpshooter for Empty the Warrens is awesome. Allows for Brightstone Ritual-SB, which can be funny.

TheGoblinGeneral4
07-26-2007, 07:24 PM
yeah, thanks for your input guys... oh btw i didnt me to sound cocky lol

Kiki is more of a fun card, just like Rancor is and if i ever played in a big tournament (say Legacy PTQ if that ever happens ha!) i would consider changing up MB, but mostly i just play in random sanctioned tourneys for DCI points and/or packs, but nothing is set in stone...

Think i should run 1 more siege over Kiki?
and could 1-2 ETW be run MB?

Eldariel
07-26-2007, 07:58 PM
Think i should run 1 more siege over Kiki?
and could 1-2 ETW be run MB?

Siege is always better than Kiki when it matters (after Wrath, when targeted by removal, when needing to get around blockers/enchantments and when needing a gang to block quick). EtW requires storm-material to work and isn't a Goblin itself. I'd skip.

ninjabear
07-27-2007, 10:24 AM
Eldariel, generally speaking I also think that Kiki-Jikki is a win-more card, but I don't think that you always need to run 4 copies of Siege-Gang Commander, because you can always copy a Matron, or a Ringleader to enter goblin-madness :)


Just wanted to say that Krosan Grip has killed a lot of Moxen and Crucibles in my testing so you could in fact say it counts towards the manadenial strategy of Goblins

Yup, Krosan Grip is really versatile.

Btw, has anyone ever considered running Goblin Settler/Goblin Gardener as an alternative mana denial strategy (specifically one that can destroy basic land).

Eldariel
07-27-2007, 09:16 PM
Eldariel, generally speaking I also think that Kiki-Jikki is a win-more card, but I don't think that you always need to run 4 copies of Siege-Gang Commander, because you can always copy a Matron, or a Ringleader to enter goblin-madness :)

Well, I repeatedly stated that "I'm not saying you should run 4 Siege-Gangs, I'm just saying that before running a single Kiki, you should already have 4 Siege-Gangs in your list". So, uhh, ok.

Don Tamac
07-29-2007, 06:23 PM
Sorry for taking this up, but I must have missed something obvious...

Could someone tell me just how Patron of the Akki is a weapon against engineered plague? Is it just a faster way to the kill or is there something else I don't see?

Eldariel
07-29-2007, 06:34 PM
Sorry for taking this up, but I must have missed something obvious...

Could someone tell me just how Patron of the Akki is a weapon against engineered plague? Is it just a faster way to the kill or is there something else I don't see?

You sac your expensive guys to bring it in as a surprise and swing FTW with the X/1s and your 7/5. It's huge and unaffected by Plague, and cheap, which is why it's a good weapon against it. It also makes your Plagued Alive Joblins that much better.

TheFatalOne
07-31-2007, 06:09 PM
Heres my take on the white splash I need help with the sideboard and mainboard help would be nice too. Sacred Foundry is there until I can get some Plateaus.

20 Lands

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Sacred Foundry
1 Mountain

32 Creatures

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki, the Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Patron of the Akki

7 Other Spells

4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

SideBoard:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Thoughts of Ruin
3 Tremor
1 Goblin Tinkerer

That's it hope you guys can help.

Nydaeli
07-31-2007, 06:24 PM
Heres my take on the white splash I need help with the sideboard and mainboard help would be nice too. Sacred Foundry is there until I can get some Plateaus.

20 Lands

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Sacred Foundry
1 Mountain

32 Creatures

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki, the Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Patron of the Akki

7 Other Spells

4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

SideBoard:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Thoughts of Ruin
3 Tremor
1 Goblin Tinkerer

20 lands is too low. You probably want around 23. Siege-Gang Commander is much better than Kiki or Patron. Pyromancer is probably cuttable. You should probably run Disenchants or something in the board. Also, why Thoughts of Ruin over Armageddon?

TheFatalOne
07-31-2007, 07:44 PM
20 lands is too low. You probably want around 23. Siege-Gang Commander is much better than Kiki or Patron. Pyromancer is probably cuttable. You should probably run Disenchants or something in the board. Also, why Thoughts of Ruin over Armageddon?

Ok ya for some odd reason I forgot SGC... Also I think I might bumb the lands up to 21 maybe 22 but 23 is just too high for me. Definately Armageddon over Thoughts of Ruin. The sideboard was for a regular mono red goblins. Disenchants seem good but is there any other white options?
Ill probably cut one mogg fanatic and one pyromancer for 2 SCG's. I don't know what to cut for any more lands though.

NQN
08-01-2007, 09:40 AM
Just cut Sharpshooter Kiki ANd Patron and 1 Fanatic for 2 Lands and 2 Siege Gang Commanders. I play 24 lands and im feel very comfortable with it.

Greetings,
NQN

BoardinCharlie
08-01-2007, 12:10 PM
Against combo is the correct thing to do now is have 1 pyromancer instead of having to depend on sharpshooter + warchief to kill all those ETW tokens?

Tacosnape
08-01-2007, 01:23 PM
I don't think Pyromancer or Sharpshooter is much of a way to deal with Empty the Warrens tokens. They're both slow, expensive, and clunky, and you'll probably be dead before you get away with it.

SpatulaOfTheAges
08-01-2007, 02:01 PM
If you incorporate Brightstone Ritual into your SB plan, 1 Pyromancer/Sharpshooter works brilliantly. You can string together Matrons/Ringleaders until you find it and then let loose. Pyromancer has the advantage of helping you race combo with a slower hand, but Shooter rox Ichorid/Survival.

On a related note, has anyone tried cutting the LD suite for a Tombs/Burrows configuration?

TheFatalOne
08-01-2007, 02:45 PM
See the thing is I'm currently running 22 lands in my old mono red build and I occasionally get mana flooded and almost never mana screwed with all of my mana cheaters. I think that sharpshooter is the best way to deal with ETW as it just knocks them off without having to sac your creatures too. I think I'm going to cut 1 Fanatic, a Patron of the Akki and a Goblin tinkerer for:
1 Mountain and 2 Siege gang commanders.

Jak
08-01-2007, 03:25 PM
On a related note, has anyone tried cutting the LD suite for a Tombs/Burrows configuration?

I think this could help the deck a lot. I have been getting bad results with wasteland recently because when you go Mountain go, the opponent then fetches his/her basics.

Rishadan port is fine still, but it doesn't hurt your opponents when Wasteland is not doing its thing.

If you did add those lands, what would you guys think of Null Rod in the SB. I have been wanting to use this card so much with all the LEDs, Chrome Moxen, Lotus Petals, and Belchers around. Sure it would hurt us with vial, but I think cutting TES off of 12 cards and belcher off 16 would hurt them way more. So I think a good SB right now is this.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Brightstone Ritual
3 Krosan Grip
4 EE

I have been liking the ritual alot. Same goes for Chalice and Grip. EE has been amazing. Wiping out EtW and Bridge tokens, taking care of Tarmogoyf, Nimble, and a ton of slivers. It just has a lot of uses. Thoughts?

Volt
08-01-2007, 05:19 PM
I have been liking the ritual alot. Same goes for Chalice and Grip. EE has been amazing. Wiping out EtW and Bridge tokens, taking care of Tarmogoyf, Nimble, and a ton of slivers. It just has a lot of uses. Thoughts?

Yeah, unfortunately, EE is really good. It's the one thing Goblins can do that I really fear as a Meathooks player.

Sims
08-01-2007, 05:28 PM
While I don't have any real life tournament data to back it, I had made a switch already in my MWS lists from the land disruption suite to Tombs + more mountains. Originally I had thought of just adding tombs then a few more duals to splash into white or black, and had overlooked burrows, but that's something worth testing. Also, I don't run Pyromancer, but I do run Sharpshooter as I feel that it can be inherently devastating in the mirror or against survival variants (particularly when you catch someone off guard with it), with tomb it can be fast enough to answer ETW preboard (and you have sharpshooter + Ritual and EE post board), and it can be great against random aggro decks in aiding the removal or providing source of non-combat damage to your opponent in conjunction with SGC and Fanatic. I really like Sharpshooter, still.

As for my games online with Goblins, I like the tomb. I've missed it since the Food Chain days but never really had the balls to drop Wasteland or Ports, but now I feel the speed it offers is more important than the tempo disruption. Turn 2 Sharpshooters and matrons, or even ringleaders and turn 3 SGCs after you lackey in a warchief are some good. I'll give the burrows a test.