[Deck] Red Death

[AnwarA101]

Red Death is an aggressive deck based around heavy disruption in the early game that prevents your opponent from accomplishing their strategy, while attacking them with devastating creatures that can quickly close the game if left unchecked, ala classic Suicide Black. In an innovation over the old Suicide Black model, the deck also utilizes burn spells that are used to finish off a faltering or recovering opponent or to remove early blockers and threats.

Red Death attacks the central resources of most decks in the format by destroying their hand and manabase. The deck can also destroy an opponent’s creatures with it's burn spells, or turn them into additional reach to finish off an opponent. When this strategy works optimally, the opponent is left trying to recover their resources while being beaten by quick, undercosted and deadly threats.

The deck wins by accelerating it's own gameplan while delaying the opponents, through undercosted creatures, strategy-disrupting spells and fast mana. This allows for the quick death of an opponent that has no time to find answers.

The deck’s hyper-aggressive approach to disruption and creatures often leads it to have very little of its own cards in hand and if its threats are answered it can be tough to kill an opponent in the late game. While the late game may not be a preferred position for Red Death it is by no means unwinnable. Any creatures or burn drawn in the late game can finish off an opponent that has just barely survived the intial assault.

This deck is continuation of the Suicide Black archetype that has existed for some time in Magic. The term “Suicide” references black creatures that, while being very powerful, also have almost suicidal drawbacks associated with them. This deck is called Red Death because it is a Suicide Black that incorporated Red burn spells as a key component of its disruption. The name Red Death is a shortened reference to the short story, “The Masque of the Red Death”, by Edgar Allen Poe. While Suicide Black decks have existed for a long time many of the key elements of this deck are based on a primer written by Edward “Legend” Paltzik which can be found here (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11797.0) and Part2 (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11798.0).

Red Death

//Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

//Creatures
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Rotting Giant
1 Wretched Anurid

//Removal and Reach
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

//Mana and Lands
7 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

//Sideboard
3 Jitte
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
4 Dystopia


Other key resources for understanding this deck are available –

The Red Death Primer (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14540.html)
Retired Red Death thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3795)
Suicide Black thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3451)
Tournament Report by Anwar Ahmad from The Mana Leak Open 2 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5309)
Tournament Report by Zohar Bhagat from Duel for Duals 3 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3786)
Tournament Report by Eric Darland at a side event at Nationals (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3899)

This deck has generated many questions and many of them are part of a heated discussion such as –

Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?

Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?

Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?

Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?

Does it play enough creatures?

Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?

Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?

Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?

Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?

[Machinus]

Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?

No, but another creature might be accelptable.

Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?

Maybe. Giant is good, and there are other options for 2cc creatures.

Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?

No, Crypt is better.

Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?

Yes, it's better than therapy.

Does it play enough creatures?

There are an adequate number, but more might be a good thing, especially to support Jitte.

Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?

Why aren't you beating combo already?

Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?

I think they are both acceptable options. The best solution would be to increase the number of sources by one.

Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?

Well, you can't add any more fetches, so I think it's good.

Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?

Yes.

[Nihil Credo]

Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?

No, the deck already runs just enough creatures to support SB Jitte and Therapy.

Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?

Yes, I believe so. Most of the time it costs me 4-5 life, which is simply unacceptable for a mere 3/3.
Myself, I like to maindeck 2 Withered Wretches in place of the Anurid and the fourth Shade, but that's because I see a lot of Loam decks around

Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?

Yes, you can't afford to not draw disruption against combo.

Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?

Yes, control decks can be a tough matchup, and most of them rely on Crucible or Loam, or both.
It's not needed to fight Threshold, but since the deck is so popular, increasing your chances can't be bad. Although once Tarmogoyf gets in the deck, Crypting them could actually be counterproductive.

Does it play enough creatures?

When you face combo, it feels as if you never draw enough disruption; when you face control, it feels as if you never draw enough creatures. You have to strike a balance somewhere. If I wanted a seventeenth creature, I'd move one Duress to the sideboard.

Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?

Against combo, you don't need even more hate cards that cost mana; if you wanted to add anything, they should be some Chalices (to be set at 0). Against Angel Stompy, Dystopia is more than enough. Faerie Stompy is generally not worth sideboarding for, thanks to Sea Drakes' cost.

A growing presence of Affinity may be the only reason to try Null Rod. I'd start by cutting the SB Darkblast, which I've always hated anyway.

Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?

I prefer the current configuration, but at a huge tourney I could see why one would try to minimize the risk of mana screw.

Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?

I like to run a 4th Badlands, cutting a Swamp. Opponents hate to Wasteland me when I have the tempo advantage, i.e. almost always.

Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?

Yes.

[feuerizer]

Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?

I think they are both acceptable options. The best solution would be to increase the number of sources by one.


This is a very difficult question.
I tend to be manaflooded indeed, running the normal configuration of 21 lands.
So upping the count is not the best solution (to me).
Drawing lands (black mana sources) is good if you have shade on the table and a good position. Otherwise you need the land to cast something or you topdeck a land which may be crap.
Changing one wasteland to a swamp leads to much more stable hands.
There were so many opening hands with just one wasteland and a fetchland/black mana producing land that I could cry.



Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?

Well, you can't add any more fetches, so I think it's good.

You are absolutely right!
I want to run as many fetchlands as possible!
Sadly I dont have a playset of Mires and Deltas (missing some Delatas).
Therefore I run 4 Badlands which works pretty good up to now.

[Fuzzy]

Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?
Yup, Anurid sux!

Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?
Gobbos and Affinity must be founded in ANY meta, so the answer is "Yes".

Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?
No, Maindeck, replacing Duress.

Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?
Crypt is insane and his picture PwNs!

Does it play enough creatures?
Not nescessary.

Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?
Against Affinity and Faerie Stompy is nice, but i don't like it versus Combo. CotV is better.

Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?
-2 Fetchlands
-2 Swamp
+1 Wasteland
+3 Urborg

Problem solved! ^^

Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?
I liked this configuration with the changes there I showed before.

Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?

In my opinion, nope.

[maurobad2k4]

Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?
Certainly.

Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?
Yep, at least in my meta (Brazil).

Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?
Actually I always use Cabal Therapy and Duress MD, in a total of 6 or 7 slots. It's because I dont like Sinkhole too much, but it's a good card for sure.

Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?
Certainly. Withered Wretch or Planar Void could still be useful if you're afraid of chalices or needles.

Does it play enough creatures?
14 - 17 is a good number, so yeah.

Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?
CotV is much better against combo, but Null Rod is very good against affinity. It's a tough call.

Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?
+ 1 Wasteland
- 1 Delta

Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?
I'd run this configuration : 6 fetches ( 4 mire, 2 delta ), 4 wastes and 4 badlands

Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?
Unfortunately I dont think so.


@Fuzzy : OMG, what are you doing here ?? Good se ya. :laugh:

[Tacosnape]

Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?

No. Threats >> Burn.

Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?

No, but I've never felt that was the debate about Anurid. I feel the debate about Anurid is whether it's optimal. I won't argue for a second that it's viable.

Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?
Depends on your meta. I don't think it improves a lot of matches.

Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?
It needs some answer to Loam Control.

Does it play enough creatures?
No, but it can't really fit any more in.

Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?
I think so. That covers a lot of tough matchups right there.

Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?
Considering I think I was the first to suggest going down to 3 Wastelands and the deck packs a billion spells that don't have a colorless mana symbol anywhere on them, I say no.

Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?
Anwar's version will be, due in large part to playskill and sixteen dark rituals. I wouldn't be astonished to see it top eight, as I think it'll be piloted by a surprising number of people, but if I had to guess, I'd say it won't unless it masters beating Threshold and Control consistently in the next week or so.
[/QUOTE]

[nitewolf9]

Wretched Anurid, while he can be a liability sometimes (i.e. against goblins) is still a very efficient threat in most other match-ups. While people seem to think there is a viable alternative to him, I fail to see one (maybe running the 4th rotting giant, but that seems too risky...you want to not have conditional threats). The 4th chain lightning is interesting but also makes me weary going to 15 creatures with jitte coming in out of the board. I've tried so hard to find another creature for this slot but I simply think anurid is as good as it's going to get.

Are people trying to suggest withered wretch in his place? This has been attempted and I think the results were poor. He is great in some matchups but just a bear in most others. A 2/2 is simply not going to generate the pressure that this deck needs to end the game fast. Plus he is a mana whore, and we already run 4 shades. Remember the goals of the deck: disrupt your opponent and end the game quickly with the time that you bought yourself. Wretch does not do this, and we also have crypt from the board.

I personally think the 8th fetchland is ideal. Three wastelands and 4 sinkholes is a good land d package and the additional fetch also helps to feed giant and thin out your deck more (it's not too significant but every percentage point counts).

Personally I also believe that the sideboard is the most controversial part of this deck. I'm trying to stray away from having a 1-of, but darkblast is fine there if you want to run it (I suggested it as a one of because it acts as a redundant piece of removal and is great with e.plague against gobs). I've been toying around with -1 darkblast, -1 dystopia, and +2 engineered explosives (and I think Anwar is trying 2 cabal therapy in that slot), so maybe that will be effective. I like explosives because it is versatile, and helps in matchups like affinity and grow where you can hit lots of targets at once (plus it clears away needles and vials, which seems good).

That's my take on the deck. Good writeup, Anwar. I strongly recommend that if you want to play this deck you also read Legend's primer. Some of the concepts (ie the metagame references) are dated, but the general strategy of the deck and why things like 2/2 creatures should not be used is explained beautifully.

[Fuzzy]

Two questions:

1- Why not Dark Confidant?
2- Tabernacle against Aggro isn't good?

[AnwarA101]

Two questions:

1- Why not Dark Confidant?
2- Tabernacle against Aggro isn't good?

The reason Dark Confidant is not in the deck is covered in the two previous threads which are linked in the opening post.

Tabernacle affects your creatures as well and its a land that produces no mana. I'm not sure it makes much sense in this deck. Would you care to explain further?

[nitewolf9]

Two questions:

1- Why not Dark Confidant?
2- Tabernacle against Aggro isn't good?

1 - Dark confidant causes tempo loss in a deck that abuses tempo. He also isn't very hot against goblins. However, SexyRector did use a build with confidant to great success, so it might be a preference thing (but I think you have to be gay for the card as well).

2 - are you suggesting we run tabernacle? I'm not quite sure I understand this.

edit - Damn, Anwar is too fast for me apparently...

[Nihil Credo]

@Fuzzy: Tabernacle has no place in any aggro deck, for what I hope are very very obvious reasons. Dark Confidant doesn't have a place in this aggro deck, for reasons which are a bit less obvious (basically, you don't want the game to last long enough for Confidant to gain you enough advantage).
Regarding this, Anwar, I'd suggest you explain in the opening post why Bob isn't useful in this deck, since the question will undoubtedly keep popping up.


Are people trying to suggest withered wretch in his place? This has been attempted and I think the results were poor. He is great in some matchups but just a bear in most others.
Yeah, I'm not advocating Wretch for everyone. I like to play him because, as I said, I see a lot of Loam-based decks. He's also fairly good against Threshold decks, and obviously he hurts Ichorid, but that's it.

I still think a singleton Street Wraith should be worth testing. If I had the option to play another Negator or Specter which costs an additional 2 life to play, I probably would give it a try.

As for the sideboard, I'll join you in your hate of Darkblast, but I can't understand why you'd cut a Dystopia. That card is the stone cold nuts in so many different matchups, and most of them are tough and/or have ways to remove one (Threshold, Angel Stompy, hell, even many builds of Truffle Shuffle and Angel Stax are hurt by it).

[AnwarA101]

I still think a singleton Street Wraith should be worth testing. If I had the option to play another Negator or Specter which costs an additional 2 life to play, I probably would give it a try.


I would prefer if suggestions from Future Sight could be absent from this thread until after the Grand Prix. Everyone who will look at this deck won't want suggestions that are not legal for the GP including me. After the GP, there will be plenty of time to discuss the cards in Future Sight.

[Fuzzy]

Ok, ok, Dark Confidant isn't good...

I'm sugesting Tabernacle because I saw in many Homebrew's lists, and I did not understand why one deck similar, that he has less Land Destruction in function of the speed would not use.

Anyway, against Gobbos, Tabernacle > Plague IMHO.

[URABAHN]

Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?
Hell no. The last creature you want to see in this deck is Wretched Anurid, why in the HELL would you want to increase your chances of seeing that guy? Why is he the last creature you want to see? Siege-Gang Commander = Lose 5 Life, Decree of Justice = Lose X Life, Cavern Harpy = Lose The Game

Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?
I think in most cases, Raging Oni Slave would be a better choice, since it's a modest loss of 3 life.

Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?
Yes, I think it's a better sideboard choice vs. Gro and Combo than Tormod's Crypt.

Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?
No, I don't think it helps you enough against Combo and I don't think it's that stong against Gro.

Does it play enough creatures?
Sometimes. It all depends on your opening hand.

Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?
Null Rod isn't very good against Angel Stompy, even worse against Faerie Stompy, and Affinity is a non-issue in the current Legacy Metagame. Null Rod also sucks against IGGy Pop (see what happened in Round 2 & 3) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5242) and is even less effective against TES.

Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?
I didn't realize there was a problem finding black mana in Red Death. I'd say keep all the disruption pieces as 4-ofs.

Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?
There's no reason to run more than 3 Badlands. Seriously, can someone think of a good reason you'd want the full compliment of Badlands in a deck that has a light splash of Red?

Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?
I would prefer it if such theorizing could be absent from this thread until after the Grand Prix. Cart before the horse, counting chicks before they hatch, [INSERT CLICHE HERE]. They only way we'll know if it's a serious contender at the GP is if it's a serious contender at the GP.

[AnwarA101]

Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?
I would prefer it if such theorizing could be absent from this thread until after the Grand Prix. Cart before the horse, counting chicks before they hatch, [INSERT CLICHE HERE]. They only way we'll know if it's a serious contender at the GP is if it's a serious contender at the GP.

Haha, you got it my friend. It was just a possible avenue for discussing the deck. I was wondering if I would be the only one playing it next month! :wink:

[bladewing019]

Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?
Hell no. The last creature you want to see in this deck is Wretched Anurid, why in the HELL would you want to increase your chances of seeing that guy? Why is he the last creature you want to see? Siege-Gang Commander = Lose 5 Life, Decree of Justice = Lose X Life, Cavern Harpy = Lose The Game

Maybe its just me but that doesn't make any sense at all, are you saying chain lightning should be in over Anruid or should it be left in? I don't think anyone is advocating adding more Anruids.

[blackguard90]

again, I don't see the penalty for running 1 extra rotting giant, of course playing 8 fetches. The way I see it, there is enough fodder to support 2 rotting giants 85% of the time. Also, I haven't really had 2 giants on the table more than once. There are still people saying that this configuration is wrong, but since I play in a area with lots of tribal decks: goblins, elves, zombies, WIZARDS (this deck is actually good) etc, so anurid is very very bad.

[Lemuria]

again, I don't see the penalty for running 1 extra rotting giant, of course playing 8 fetches. The way I see it, there is enough fodder to support 2 rotting giants 85% of the time. Also, I haven't really had 2 giants on the table more than once. There are still people saying that this configuration is wrong, but since I play in a area with lots of tribal decks: goblins, elves, zombies, WIZARDS (this deck is actually good) etc, so anurid is very very bad.


Yes, that depends much on the metagame. But I don't think Anurid is bad IMO. We just run one of them and he's fat. Course, he has a drawback and so does Negator but, the deck is called Suicide after all....to play suicide, you must have balls, like Anwar did when he dropped 2 more big aliens on the same game that his first got sharpnel blasted. And honestly, by the times that Anurid made me loose so much life, I was already in a bad position and about to loose the game anyway.

Also, good to see the number of brazilians increasing here:smile:

[blackguard90]

Yes, that depends much on the metagame. But I don't think Anurid is bad IMO. We just run one of them and he's fat. Course, he has a drawback and so does Negator but, the deck is called Suicide after all....to play suicide, you must have balls, like Anwar did when he dropped 2 more big aliens on the same game that his first got sharpnel blasted. And honestly, by the times that Anurid made me loose so much life, I was already in a bad position and about to loose the game anyway.

Also, good to see the number of brazilians increasing here:smile:

but you don't control anurid's drawback. For gator, you choose to WHAT to sac, for giant, you choose to remove, for something like fleshreaver, you choose to lose (life, although he might cause you to lose :laugh: ) but for anurid, your opponent tells you how much you lose, which is BAD! You don't want to be wining, then suddenly the goblin player vials out a siege gang, then plays matron and vials out another siege gang, when your holding a chain lighhtning and he's at 2.

[Happy Gilmore]

I was a great proponent of 4x Giant in the main, but I have recently been running into situations where I can either not feed the single giant or I draw a second one. Thats a problem imo. Anurid is fine, just use your head when you play it. If you drop it against TES you deserve to lose.

[Citrus-God]

You can give Avalanche Riders a shot at that 16th creature slot.... really, I'm not sure, but even Blazing Specter works too.

[Lemuria]

but you don't control anurid's drawback. For gator, you choose to WHAT to sac, for giant, you choose to remove, for something like fleshreaver, you choose to lose (life, although he might cause you to lose :laugh: ) but for anurid, your opponent tells you how much you lose, which is BAD! You don't want to be wining, then suddenly the goblin player vials out a siege gang, then plays matron and vials out another siege gang, when your holding a chain lighhtning and he's at 2.

Now, think with me.

If a gob player drop 2 siege gang on the table, you'll probably gonna loose anyway, with or without Anurid. 2 siege gang + 1 matron = 9 goblins:eek: (without couting a possible warchief or whatever...). If you don't have a plague, how you're gonna answer that. Am I wrong?

So, as you see, the player looses the game, not Anurid. It's not fair to blame the creature.

"If you drop it against TES you deserve to lose." Yup, pretty much that.

[georgjorge]

To me, it seems that the already not so easy ******** matchup (especially with a red splash) could become even harder with the substitution of Tarmogoyf for Werebear (like Bardo proposed), as it would often become a sizeable blocker faster than Mongoose or Werebear, if for instance I play a discard spell, a land is getting fetched, and the Threshold player plays a cantrip in the first two turns. Rotting Giant might become a bit better then, but still, I wonder how the percentages are post-Future Sight against ********, and how this could be remedied (in addition to Dystopias in the board). I don't like Crypt much since its effect on the board is only indirect, and thus it somehow doesn't seem to be aggressive enough, and I don't know many other matchups where I would want to bring it in against (for example, it obviously hurts Loam, but it should be a better strategy to enhance the beatdown while they pay two mana every turn to gain card advantage).

Any thoughts on this ?

[Nihil Credo]

How about just running Leyline of the Void? Threshold and many other decks seem to be adopting Needle en masse as an answer to Crypt, and Leyline dodges that as well as countermagic. We have the means to hardcast Leyline as well if we happen to draw it late.

It might also be worth considering that Leyline is one of the few answers to Hulk Flash, which barring errata/bannings is very likely to be Tier One after Future Sight.

[blackguard90]

Well, Tarmogoyf is very much resistant to everything this deck have. Because in the match-up, its consistently a 4/5 for 2, maybe 3/4 at times. Its toughness is out of bolt range, and crypt isn't so good, as it only takes their graveyard, while you still have instants, lands, sorceries and creatures in your own yard. A way to remedy this is of course dystopia, but I agree that Tarmogoyf makes the first game slightly harder.

Leyline can be a nice addition, but the chances that you get 1 in your starting hand (4 in deck) is around 27%. Which means you have to mulligan aggressively. And also, consider that Leyline only takes care of Mongoose, it does nothing against Tarmogoyf, except maybe make it a 4/5 instead of a 5/6.

Now, Planar Void is another option! But it shuts down rotting giant, against threshold wretched is just as good.
Another option is sideboard Diabolic Edicts, which does so much better than chain lightning, etc.

[CalebD]

Chance of drawing one leyline with 4 in the deck is 40%

[nitewolf9]

I think Tarmogoyf should not be discussed yet as it will not be legal for the GP. Let's keep the discussion on tuning this deck for that event for now.

[Hummingbird TG]

Leyline can be a nice addition, but the chances that you get 1 in your starting hand (4 in deck) is around 27%. Which means you have to mulligan aggressively. And also, consider that Leyline only takes care of Mongoose, it does nothing against Tarmogoyf, except maybe make it a 4/5 instead of a 5/6.

But it takes care of Monkey Pilot Wins...uh, I mean, Hulk Flash.

[Shriekmaw]

But it takes care of Monkey Pilot Wins...uh, I mean, Hulk Flash.



Leyine of the Void does nothing against CRET Belcher. How does Red Death expect to win this matchup? You really have to win the die roll in this matchup and keep a good hand with a least one discard spell you can cast on the first turn. I think its the hardest combo matchup to win, because Belcher is so fast.


I'm a big fan of Red Death, but if Belcher is gaining popularity, it becomes a very problematic matchup to face.

[Firebrothers]

Leyine of the Void does nothing against CRET Belcher. How does Red Death expect to win this matchup? You really have to win the die roll in this matchup and keep a good hand with a least one discard spell you can cast on the first turn. I think its the hardest combo matchup to win, because Belcher is so fast.


I'm a big fan of Red Death, but if Belcher is gaining popularity, it becomes a very problematic matchup to face.

I dont know, needle maindeck and in the board has been considered before and needle is a card that can be used in just about every matchup so if you are affraid of belcher try and find some room for pithing needle.

[blackguard90]

Leyine of the Void does nothing against CRET Belcher. How does Red Death expect to win this matchup? You really have to win the die roll in this matchup and keep a good hand with a least one discard spell you can cast on the first turn. I think its the hardest combo matchup to win, because Belcher is so fast.


I'm a big fan of Red Death, but if Belcher is gaining popularity, it becomes a very problematic matchup to face.


I don't care for belcher. The deck doesn't win consistently turn 1, and you'd be an idiot if you kept a hand with no disruption anyways. All it takes is 1 duress or hymn to kick his ass, so it won't matter. And some people are packing cabal therapies in the board. getting a discard spell isn't the problem, there is a 85-90% chance you will have 1 duress or hymn, and 40% you will have ritual.

[Shriekmaw]

I don't care for belcher. The deck doesn't win consistently turn 1, and you'd be an idiot if you kept a hand with no disruption anyways. All it takes is 1 duress or hymn to kick his ass, so it won't matter. And some people are packing cabal therapies in the board. getting a discard spell isn't the problem, there is a 85-90% chance you will have 1 duress or hymn, and 40% you will have ritual.


If you show up for the GP in Columbus, you will care. This might be the number one combo deck that people will bring to the GP. If you don't go first, then you will probably lose the match.

[nitewolf9]

I wouldn't be as worried about belcher as I am about hulk flash; that is the truly broken combo deck we need to worry about. However, chalice seems to affect both and might be a good addition to the board. If we ran something that smashed both thresh and combo then we would be in business. How about:

3 dystopia
4 chalice of the void
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague

We lose jitte which I am not too happy about but then again if the meta stays the way it is that might have to happen. I don't see any way for goblins to beat hulk flash at all. That deck will warp the format if it does not get nerfed before the GP. At least with this board we can fight them with leyline and chalice, as well as fighting CRET with chalice and plague. Thresh should be smashed by chalice, leyline, AND dystopia (wow), while goblins is still acceptable with just the 4 plagues coming in. Thoughts on any of this or where the deck should go? I know Anwar tried chalice but did not seem to like it at Kaddy's (although I don't think he ran into much aggro control...with hulk flash, there should be a big resurgance of all kinds of stifle-happy aggro control decks).

[z38gm]

Dont forget ritual plague on clerics is a pretty good way to slow down hulk/flash as well. It forces them to bounce the plague before they can go off. That mixed with leyline would make for a good matchup post board.

[nitewolf9]

Plague does not affect the combo. Disciple's triggers will go off as he goes to the yard with the artifact creatures (they all come into play at once). It is the same deal as when you play wrath against affinity. So plague is a no go.

[Shriekmaw]

The only thing about Chalice in the board for Red Death, is that Chalice usually hurts yourself more than your opponent. You know how many times I've lost games playing Red Death when my opponent goes first turn Chalice for 1.

I'm not sure if boarding in chalice is the best solution for fast combo. I rather bring in cabal threapy as it as more synergy with the deck, and easy to flashback. Leyine of the Void is definitely something to consider in the board.

[nitewolf9]

The thing is, in matchups where you bring in chalice, you are boarding out the burn. Chalice for 1 destroys threshold and you would only be leaving in duress against them. It also severely hobbles combo. Therapy is very strong, and definitely could be put in chalice's place, but I feel running chalice is not a problem (in what matchups would you bring it in against that it would hurt you more than your opponent?).

[Hanni]

I'd run Therapy in Chalices place if you're worried about Hulk Flash at the GP. Therapy seems strong since it compliments the rest of the discard in the deck and only costs 1cc (as opposed to the 2cc you'd have to spend on Chalice).

[blackguard90]

If you show up for the GP in Columbus, you will care. This might be the number one combo deck that people will bring to the GP. If you don't go first, then you will probably lose the match.

belcher isn't that consistent, and its not consistent in vintage either where the belcher player plays REBs just to counter forces. How the fuck do you know that if I don't go first I lose? From what I see, belcher has a very low turn 1 win percentage and that Red death does not have a negative match-up against it. Belcher haven't seen play in a long time because of its inconsistency. May I remind you that FS is not legal at the GP so pact of negation isn't a viable protection option. In general, Red Death have a positive match-up against all combo decks, especailly solidarity and to a lesser extent storm combos. The only combo deck that cause Red Death to stutter is Flash Hulk, but the deck makes all aggro control look stupid.

Don't fucking say that I'm going to lose just because i go second, thats clearly not the case. I can bet you 1,000 dollars that you won't get even 3 turn 1 wins in a row unless you stack your deck or cheat. Anyhow, if you want to test I got time on saturdays and sundays, just PM me.

[noobslayer]

CRET belcher, as EwokSlayer proved last weekend is quite viable and stable. No, just because you are going second doesn't mean you will lose. It does mean CRET has the advantage, and will likely do something on its turn two.

[Sims]

belcher isn't that consistent, and its not consistent in vintage either where the belcher player plays REBs just to counter forces. How the fuck do you know that if I don't go first I lose? From what I see, belcher has a very low turn 1 win percentage and that Red death does not have a negative match-up against it. Belcher haven't seen play in a long time because of its inconsistency. May I remind you that FS is not legal at the GP so pact of negation isn't a viable protection option. In general, Red Death have a positive match-up against all combo decks, especailly solidarity and to a lesser extent storm combos. The only combo deck that cause Red Death to stutter is Flash Hulk, but the deck makes all aggro control look stupid.

Don't fucking say that I'm going to lose just because i go second, thats clearly not the case. I can bet you 1,000 dollars that you won't get even 3 turn 1 wins in a row unless you stack your deck or cheat. Anyhow, if you want to test I got time on saturdays and sundays, just PM me.

As was already stated by Noobslayer before me, EwokSlayers performance at the DLD3 shows the deck isn't a jank pile of inconsistancy and if it goes first, you may not flat out lose, but it's giving belcher a strong advantage in the game.

[Shriekmaw]

Don't fucking say that I'm going to lose just because i go second, thats clearly not the case. I can bet you 1,000 dollars that you won't get even 3 turn 1 wins in a row unless you stack your deck or cheat. Anyhow, if you want to test I got time on saturdays and sundays, just PM me.


First of all, I don't appreciate your language when responding to my post. I've just saw Ewokslayer do that all day at Kaddy's Dual Land Draft III. CRET belcher does not win all the time on turn 1, but a lot of the time they can either get belcher in play or cast empty the warrens for like 12 goblin tokens which is good game if they go first.

I was just pointing out what I saw this past weekend in a pretty big magic tournament where most of the good players which came up to Syracuse to attend.

I do agree Red Death has a very good game against combo and control, but when a deck that can go off turn 1 and turn 2 consistenly has to raise some concerns. I love the deck, but I was just pointing out what I saw.

[blackguard90]

First of all, I don't appreciate your language when responding to my post. I've just saw Ewokslayer do that all day at Kaddy's Dual Land Draft III. CRET belcher does not win all the time on turn 1, but a lot of the time they can either get belcher in play or cast empty the warrens for like 12 goblin tokens which is good game if they go first.

I was just pointing out what I saw this past weekend in a pretty big magic tournament where most of the good players which came up to Syracuse to attend.

I do agree Red Death has a very good game against combo and control, but when a deck that can go off turn 1 and turn 2 consistenly has to raise some concerns. I love the deck, but I was just pointing out what I saw.

consistent |kənˈsistənt| adjective (of a person, behavior, or process) unchanging in achievement or effect over a period of time : manufacturing processes require a consistent approach. • compatible or in agreement with something : the injuries are consistent with falling from a great height. • (of an argument or set of ideas) not containing any logical contradictions : a consistent explanation.

The deck is clearly not consistent, I value consistency highly and a deck that can't break the 80% first turn win level isn't consistent. Grim Long is consistent, belcher is NOT.

Red Death can consistently disrupt you, as well as consistently beat you, while belcher cannot consistently ETW or belch. This is a red death thread, so don't come here and argue about the consistency of Belcher. I said the deck wasn't a main concern, as SB cards and good draws remedy it.

Go learn what consistent mean before you call the deck consistent. And don't troll here if your not giving helpful advice for red death.

[Citrus-God]

The deck is clearly not consistent, I value consistency highly and a deck that can't break the 80% first turn win level isn't consistent. Grim Long is consistent, belcher is NOT.

Grim Long is only consistent because of the amount of broken acceleration, Tutors, and high and diverse threat density. THIS IS NOT FUCKING TYPE 1!!!
Type 1 has Yawgmoth's Will, Lotus, and more shaz. This format is slightly slower than Type 1. Because it's slower than Type 1, Belcher is actually viable... especially with a threat density of 11 cards. I know Grim Long has more, but it requires for them to work together or else it wont work. In Belcher, it's just drop the Belcher....



Red Death can consistently disrupt you, as well as consistently beat you, while belcher cannot consistently ETW or belch. This is a red death thread, so don't come here and argue about the consistency of Belcher. I said the deck wasn't a main concern, as SB cards and good draws remedy it.



That's a fuckton of acceleration:

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rites of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
3 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor

So your saying it cannot consistently Belch or EtW? Gee, it can mulligan the hell out of itself, and still have a mass of accleration and a threat in that hand... consistently.



Go learn what consistent mean before you call the deck consistent. And don't troll here if your not giving helpful advice for red death.

I do not see the opening hands in Red Death being consistent. I do not see drawing blindly for a threat being consistent. I do not see it's Game 1 against Threshold being consistent. I especially do not see it's IGGy-Pop match-up being consistent.


belcher isn't that consistent, and its not consistent in vintage either where the belcher player plays REBs just to counter forces. How the fuck do you know that if I don't go first I lose? From what I see, belcher has a very low turn 1 win percentage and that Red death does not have a negative match-up against it. Belcher haven't seen play in a long time because of its inconsistency. May I remind you that FS is not legal at the GP so pact of negation isn't a viable protection option. In general, Red Death have a positive match-up against all combo decks, especailly solidarity and to a lesser extent storm combos. The only combo deck that cause Red Death to stutter is Flash Hulk, but the deck makes all aggro control look stupid.

Wait.... so your saying that it cant consistently win Turn 1?

So dropping 6 cards worth of acceleration, Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor into a Belcher isnt consistent enough?

Also, Red Death isnt that great against all Combo decks. IGGy-Pop is still being played in Virginia because it has a chance agaisnt decks like Bw Confidant and Red Death.


Don't fucking say that I'm going to lose just because i go second, thats clearly not the case. I can bet you 1,000 dollars that you won't get even 3 turn 1 wins in a row unless you stack your deck or cheat.

Duress takes out what's in their hand, not their next topdeck. They just topdeck a threat and make you stare at it from the opposite side of the board.

[bigbear102]

consistent |kənˈsistənt| adjective (of a person, behavior, or process) unchanging in achievement or effect over a period of time : manufacturing processes require a consistent approach. ...

I value consistency highly and a deck that can't break the 80% first turn win level isn't consistent...

Red Death can consistently disrupt you, as well as consistently beat you...
Go learn what consistent mean before you call the deck consistent.

No offense to Red Death, as it is a great deck, but you are a moron. If you are going to criticize you should probably think first.

You say 80% is not consistent, meaning that your idea of something being consistent is something that happens more than 80% of the time.

Can Red Death disrupt its opponent on 80% of its turns, you say it can. Does Red Death win 80% of its matches? You say it does. I can almost guarantee that Red Death does not have an 80% win percentage against the format. I also can say that it does not have an 80% win percentage against CRET Belcher, which using your train of logic, it does.

Here's some numbers to throw into the equation also:

CRET has 11 cards that are win conditions. It has 49 cards that are mana. If you Duress them turn 1 and take a win condition, they have a 20.7% chance of drawing another. If you take mana accel, they have an 79.3 chance of drawing another. If you are on the play, and have 2 pieces of hand disruption, and cast them either on turn 1 or split up over turn 1 and 2 (if they don't go off on turn 1 anyway) then you have a decent chance of stopping them, for up to 5 turns if you take their win condition and they don't draw another in the top 5 cards.

Red Death has 8 hand disruption spells it can cast turn 1, and 12 on turn 2 (assuming a ritualed Hippie is turn 2). To get 2 on turn 1, or a hippie for turn 2 you need Ritual.

I think it is obvious that Red Death does not have a big advantage in this match. I understand that percentages do not always work, but it looks to be in CRET's favors if you go by the numbers.

[blackguard90]

No offense to Red Death, as it is a great deck, but you are a moron. If you are going to criticize you should probably think first.

You say 80% is not consistent, meaning that your idea of something being consistent is something that happens more than 80% of the time.

Can Red Death disrupt its opponent on 80% of its turns, you say it can. Does Red Death win 80% of its matches? You say it does. I can almost guarantee that Red Death does not have an 80% win percentage against the format. I also can say that it does not have an 80% win percentage against CRET Belcher, which using your train of logic, it does.

Here's some numbers to throw into the equation also:

CRET has 11 cards that are win conditions. It has 49 cards that are mana. If you Duress them turn 1 and take a win condition, they have a 20.7% chance of drawing another. If you take mana accel, they have an 79.3 chance of drawing another. If you are on the play, and have 2 pieces of hand disruption, and cast them either on turn 1 or split up over turn 1 and 2 (if they don't go off on turn 1 anyway) then you have a decent chance of stopping them, for up to 5 turns if you take their win condition and they don't draw another in the top 5 cards.

Red Death has 8 hand disruption spells it can cast turn 1, and 12 on turn 2 (assuming a ritualed Hippie is turn 2). To get 2 on turn 1, or a hippie for turn 2 you need Ritual.

I think it is obvious that Red Death does not have a big advantage in this match. I understand that percentages do not always work, but it looks to be in CRET's favors if you go by the numbers.

Your the fucking 20 year old moron with no life that can't read right. I am 16 and this is my second year in college, so don't fucking call me a moron because I am clearly fucking smarter than you. THERE IS A 80+% CHANCE THAT I DRAW INTO DISRUPTION BY TURN 1. YOU CLEARLY HAVE NO IDEA HOW GAME BREAKING A TURN 1 DURESS, TURN 2 HYMN IS.

Who the fuck ever said Red Death have a 80% win rate? I said 80% is CONSISTENT, and red death draws into disruption AND creatures 80% of the time, while I argued that Belcher can't go off 80% of the time on turn 1, and thats all I need. In fact, flash is faster than belcher, as Flash have a lot more turn 1-2 wins.

I never even said Red Death have a positive match-up, I said it had a better match-up against solidarity and certain storm combos.

The key card is Hymn to Tourach, as if I resolve one of these before they go off, there is a much higher chance that I would win. I gladly would rit a hymn and take a point of burn just to stop you first turn. Also, belcher have a lot more tendecies to take mulligans because the hand sucks, and even though you can't read, you should be able to still see that each card matters.

Any time you want to test, give me a private message, that is if you can write.


@ Anti-American: Just because your Asian I won't argue with you, also I live in Minnesota and come up to Minneapolis once in a while. BTW, do you know Stephan Giambi?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

The question was how to deal with Belcher, a deck that will likely be popular at the GP (regardless of what you may say, Belcher is indeed quite consistent, and it's gained a small but significant following). By extension, the question encompasses other decks that can often win in the first two turns (Hulk Flash, sometimes TES, etc.). The answer, of course, is the same: all you can do is disrupt your opponent--beyond that, there's really not too much that you can do. Duress and Hymn to Tourach are probably your best bets, as long as you have a Ritual. Beyond that, there's not much more that you can do, and so there's little point in breaking yourself up about it. I suppose you could side in Engineered Explosives for the Goblin tokens, but even that is not ideal--and it also means a significant change to the standard sideboard's composition. These will not be easy matchups since they hinge so much on your opening hand, but you're far from bereft of tools.

[blackguard90]

Now here are the percentages:

Dark Rit in first hand: 49.18%
Duress: Same thing
Hymn: Same thing

Duress OR hymn: 98.36%

Duress AND hymn: 27%

Dark Rit, Duress AND hymn: 12-13%

So basically in all my hands, I will get either a duress or a hymn.


Yes, all i can do is disrupt them and most of the time, thats enough. The ONLY cards that belcher have that I can't touch preboard are cards they have in play, I.E. Chrome Mox (causes card disadvantage), Lotus petal, and LED. I can easily kill their measly land, and If i'm constantly disrupting them, they can't storm off and the only option left is to get a top deck wish for infernal AND ON THE SAME TURN TUTOR FOR BELCHER AND PLAY IT, this scenario is very unlikely, as they have at most 5-6 artifact mana, of which only mox is reusable, or top deck belcher (which they won't have mana to activate most of the time after playing it).

I keep on hearing people say: Ok, I'll just play artifacts and let you beat me while I draw into things. This is clearly NOT true! Because you'll be on a 4 turn clock most of the time, and even worse if I complement my main beater with a shade or a hyppy, and you expect to draw into 7 mana and a belcher? If you top deck rituals, hyppy will eat it or I will eat it, and if you top deck belcher, you can play it, but you won't have the mana to activate it unless your a luck bag and topdeck a LED after you spent yours on casting it.(chances are 6-7%)
You can bet your ass I'll kill your duals all the time

Ok, you top deck a a tutor (infernal or wish)

A) you wish for a infernal tutor, what do you do then? Let hippie eat it, duress eat it, or sac your LED and get a belcher that you can't play?
B) You tutor for what? unless you have 3 PERMANANT mana (or draw into dark rit etc next turn) OR 9 mana you can't win! meaning it has to be 2 LEDs sitting there at least

Again, I never said RD have a positive match-up, and belcher is capable of winning turn 1, and turn 1 duress is sometimes not enough, but my point have always been, the deck don't have consistent turn 1 wins and it sucks eggs against threshold.

[blackguard90]

Anyways, It all comes down to these things:

1. Does the red death player have more than just 1 duress?
2. Does the belcher player set off turn 1?
a) If ETW, then do you have E. Plague?
3. Does the RD player disrupt the Belcher player enough to cripple him?

[nitewolf9]

With the belcher matchup, it is a gunfight. Duress is definitely key, but a turn 1 specter/turn 2 hymn kind of hand seems strong as well. They are fast but you can push them over if you are fast as well. The problem is either when they turn one etw for 8+ gobbs, or when they accelerate into a turn 1-2 belcher that you can't deal with once it hits the board. Then they race for more mana to set it off before you can kill them (sometimes you can race though).

[Happy Gilmore]

I actually tested against Brian (Ewokslayer) after the tournament last Saturday with Red Death. It was not all that good for Death. After loosing the first 4 games pre-board I decided to go to post board. I won 1 of the next 4. The ones I lost were mostly to belcher since he assumed I was boarding Plague, which I was.

Sinkhole, Wasteland, Rotting Giant, Shade, Negator, and Bolts do nothing against this particular combo deck. I would probably say its 60-40 or better for CRIT Belcher preboard and around the same post. That is the feeling I got when playing the matchup.

[blackguard90]

Everyone know that I'm not going to get a hymn or a duress 100% of the time, but data shows that every 98/100 hands I should get a hymn or duress.

@Happy Gilmore: Well, most likely if the belcher guy have a land out, I'm gonna waste it or sinkhole it (if I don't have anything else to do). Sometimes that 1 land makes a hell of a difference. I play cabal therapy in my board as you know, so that might make my match a tiny bit better, Also, i decided to cut all my jittes and crypts in favor of leyline of the void for flash (good idea?).

[Firebrothers]

Also, i decided to cut all my jittes and crypts in favor of leyline of the void for flash (good idea?).

Yeah i think we need to focus on beating this deck at the moment because the legacy world is crazy for hulk flash at this moment. If the numbers are going to be huge for this deck at the gp I think we will have a shot against it if we throw the leylines maindeck but SB is also an option. Either way what should we cut and what other potential cards will be good for this matchup and not dead against others?

[blackguard90]

Can you please explain to the Legacy community how this validates your claim on the subject of Magic: The Gathering?

Clearly, you not that good at mathematics if you believe 98/100 percent of the time you will have either a duress of hymn. Could you please explain your statistics?

It you want some respect, then I would strongly suggest not bashing members on the source, especially ones that have developed the Legacy Metagame, unlike yourself.

draw 1: 4/60=1/15
Draw 2: 4/59
.
.
.
draw 7: 4/54

Double the amound after adding. Think of it this way, you have 4 copies in of each in the deck, so AN ESTIMATE THAT IS EASIER TO THINK ABOUT is 7/15

[Ewokslayer]

Ok first:

Dark Rit in first hand: 49.18%
Duress: Same thing
Hymn: Same thing

Duress OR hymn: 98.36%

Duress AND hymn: 27%

Dark Rit, Duress AND hymn: 12-13%


The Correct Numbers
A 4 of in your opening hand 39%
A Duress or Hymn 64%
Duress AND Hymn 14%
Dark Rit, Duress, AND Hymn 5%

[Zilla]

The deck is clearly not consistent, I value consistency highly and a deck that can't break the 80% first turn win level isn't consistent. Grim Long is consistent, belcher is NOT.
Yes, it is. Belcher consistently goes off on turn two at the latest. However, the list we're talking about also runs 3 copies of Empty the Warrens as an alternate win condition, as well as four copies of Burning Wish to find the fourth Warrens. So when we say that the deck "goes off" on turns one and two consistently, it is fact. There is a distinction between going off and winning the game outright, which you have apparently chosen to ignore.

I'll say this though: at least in the maindeck, Red Death has no outs to 12 1/1 goblins on turn 1. It will kill you dead. Pre-board, if they go first, you will lose.

[T is for TOOL]

@blackguard90
Your method for calculating the odds of having at least 1 Duress in an opening hand of 7 cards drawn from a deck of 60 with 4 copies of Duress is correct, but your answer is not. If you followed through on your own calculations, you would find yourself with an answer of 0.39949 which rounds to approximately 39.95%. Furthermore, your calculation for drawing Duress OR Dark Ritual assumes that the events are mutually exclusive, which they are not. It is easy to disprove this mathematically, but even easier to simply use intuition and observe that your results make no logical sense. If the odds of drawing Duress are 40%, and drawing Duress OR Dark Ritual are 80%, then the odds of drawing Duress OR Dark Ritual OR Hymn are 120%! If I were you I would spend less time inducing off-topic flamewars about basic discrete math combinatorics when you cannot do simple arithmetic correctly.

This thread is now being monitored and any off-topic posts will be removed. If you want to discuss disco or have a meaningless pissing contest about intelligence or schooling, create your own thread in community or mish-mash so I can delete it.

-TOOL

[blackguard90]

No problem. Just stay on topic.
-TOOL

[Lemuria]

God bless the moderators.

Well, now let's go back to the thread's theme, shall we?

Anyway, I'v played some matches against hulk flash and I found Cabal Therapy and Hymn to be very usefull, also, leyline post-board is broken. I've decided to keep leyline SB on the tormods spot. It does very nice not only against hulk flash, but against TES and Iggy Pop as well, so, why not?

Also, my opinion about hulk flash. Yes, it is a broken combo, but after some tests, I realize that it's not the apocalypse. As the decks emerges, so emerges the hate. Lackey dominated the format for 2 consecutive years, now, his reign is falling and I think that's amazing. Finally, some changes and balance on the format.

So, I vote for Hulk Flash to remain on the format without banning.

Bye bye goblins reign.

[blackguard90]

God bless the moderators.

Well, now let's go back to the thread's theme, shall we?

Anyway, I'v played some matches against hulk flash and I found Cabal Therapy and Hymn to be very usefull, also, leyline post-board is broken. I've decided to keep leyline SB on the tormods spot. It does very nice not only against hulk flash, but against TES and Iggy Pop as well, so, why not?

Also, my opinion about hulk flash. Yes, it is a broken combo, but after some tests, I realize that it's not the apocalypse. As the decks emerges, so emerges the hate. Lackey dominated the format for 2 consecutive years, now, his reign is falling and I think that's amazing. Finally, some changes and balance on the format.

So, I vote for Hulk Flash to remain on the format without banning.

Bye bye goblins reign.


I just tested 5 games against flash today, which I won 4 of. Speaking of SB if you cut jittes, you weaken your goblin match-up slightly. but here is my board:

3x Cabal Therapy
4x Leyline of the Void
4x E. Plague (if goblin is as gone as you say, then the only reason would be for ETW, maybe Echoing Decay?)
4x Dystopia (owns tarmogoyf and gang)

I might have got lucky, but the flash player only set off once on turn 1.

[Sims]

Also, my opinion about hulk flash. Yes, it is a broken combo, but after some tests, I realize that it's not the apocalypse. As the decks emerges, so emerges the hate. Lackey dominated the format for 2 consecutive years, now, his reign is falling and I think that's amazing. Finally, some changes and balance on the format.

So, I vote for Hulk Flash to remain on the format without banning.

Bye bye goblins reign.

Removing Goblins and replacing it with a faster and more consistent combo deck that can still win through hate as early as turn 0-2 is hardly "changes and balance" for the format. It's format warping on a very high and broken level.

I don't see any good reasoning to allow that combo deck to exist in this format without completely changing the format to literally be vintage-light

[Lemuria]

I don't think Goblins will dissapear, I just said that they will loose their crown, so I woldn't remove e. plague for my sb.

It never existed and will never exists an invencible deck. If Urbahan said it's true, then Landstill has a favorite match against Hulk Flash. Some decks has a favorite match againt Landstill and that's the way.

I think it's too early to take any conclusions. As I said, I don't think that this is the apocalypse, but some tests and practice will find the answers and the hate that it needs.

[Shriekmaw]

If I was playing Red Death I wouldn't really worry about Hulk Flash at this point, since most of the time it does take them a few turns to set up. This usually gives you enough time to find your disruption spells in order to foil their plan to go off.

The only combo decks that pose a real problem I would have to say is either TES if they get a strong hand and can go off early, and CRET Belcher b/c they can consistently go off on turns 1 and 2. These are decks I wouldn't focus too much attention on, because they are a small part of the metagame.

I would still focus most of my attention on the aggro matchups, as they seem to be the ones that is difficult to win without a appropriate sideboard.

[blackguard90]

If I was playing Red Death I wouldn't really worry about Hulk Flash at this point, since most of the time it does take them a few turns to set up. This usually gives you enough time to find your disruption spells in order to foil their plan to go off.

The only combo decks that pose a real problem I would have to say is either TES if they get a strong hand and can go off either, and CRET Belcher b/c they can consistently go off on turns 1 and 2. These are decks I wouldn't focus too much attention on, because they are a small part of the metagame.

I would still focus most of my attention on the aggro matchups, as they seem to be the ones that is difficult to win without a appropriate sideboard.

The only pre-board match-up that I am completely worried about is UGR thresh. This is mainly because of 2 things:

1. Tarmogoyf
2. Efficient burn (even fire/ice can kill 2 shades or a hyppy)

Tarmogoyf is absolutely a pain in the ass, as nothing short of 2 bolts can kill him, and he blocks all of your guys, and double blocks gator. Dystopia is a very nice card here.

As for aggro, goblins isn't a problem because of the 45-50% preboard match-up and even better post board. The cards in goblins that ruin your day are goblin ringleader and matron, keep them off these and you'll be fine.

[Ewokslayer]

I really wouldn't worry about Tarmogoyf for the GP.

[Shriekmaw]

Kinda hard to worry about a card when it won't be legal.

[blackguard90]

Kinda hard to worry about a card when it won't be legal.

I don't only care about the GP and I know the card won't be legal. Tarmogoyf by itself makes me cringe. The card is unkillable short of 2 bolts, which was different than werebear because it took them a few turns to develop it into a 4/4. When tarmogoyf hits the table, its a 3/4 at least and grows to as big as a 5/6 at times.

What worries you that much? For red death, there isn't really any deck that can make it roll over, like solidarity against rifter. The only thing to consider is the sideboard. Do we want more protection against hulk flash? Do we need 4x leyline of the void? Also, is it wise to cut jittes for cabal therapy in favor of combo, because 4 e.plagues are enough.

[Lemuria]

What about Leyline? I think it's an great addition against thresh and combo decks, maybe even better then crypt. Assuming that you will mulligan till you get one in your hand, it's uncounterable and also, stiffle does nothing against it. By the time that they will draw a disenchant spell, it buys you a good time to disrupt them enough.

What dou you guys think? Maybe worth trying?

(I'm not considering Hulk Flash. Leyline will be a must when this deck becomes legal)

[Zilla]

What about Leyline?
Leyline is good against Thresh, but not so good against Tarmogoyf. You're running fetchlands, sorceries, instants, and creatures of your own. Even without their own yard, a turn 2 Tarmogoyf is likely to be 2/3, and it will only get bigger from there as the game progresses.

[bladewing019]

(I'm not considering Hulk Flash. Leyline will be a must when this deck becomes legal)

From what I have heard about testing thats gone on for GP legal versions the deck is still very good getting turn 1 and 2 kills way too often and still has a possibility for a turn 0 win, so you do have to have some answers to the deck for the GP, assuming it isn't errated/banned between now and the GP.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The metagame at the GP, at least at the top tables, will force very low casting costs. Given this, it might make sense to cut the LD elements and focus a bit more on the hand. Sinkhole could become Unmask, and Wasteland could be cut for two swamps and two something or the other else- while I know Anwar's not a fan of Dark Confidant, playing with and against the deck I found that he was very good, combined with discard, at keeping Flash down.

Alternately, you could fit in main Jittes. Not only is Jitte good against other aggro decks, but with two counters it can stop the Kiki kill, which will be the harder one to disrupt as it has more room for protection, and with four counters it can put you out of Disciple range.

[MattH]

Testing against Flash, Sinkhole and Wasteland were absolutely horrible. Wasteland was worse than swamp, and Sinkhole was only good on the play, and only about half the time even so. One or more of these slots definitely needs to go. Any hand without Duress or 2x Hymn was not good enough. Extirpate or Therapy or Unmask would all be good substitutes.

[blackguard90]

Testing against Flash, Sinkhole and Wasteland were absolutely horrible. Wasteland was worse than swamp, and Sinkhole was only good on the play, and only about half the time even so. One or more of these slots definitely needs to go. Any hand without Duress or 2x Hymn was not good enough. Extirpate or Therapy or Unmask would all be good substitutes.


yes, but sinkholes and wastelands give red death the edge it needs against threshold, because their land count is low and almost all of their lands can be killed. In general, sinkhole, wasteland with hymn can easily mana screw or color screw an opponent. Without sinkholes and wastes, this deck would probably be 30-35% preboard against thresh and fish variants. Extirpate can be considered, but its only place is against combo, and adding more discard spells might upset the balance. Because if the deck goes into midgame, you would be getting a lot of dead cards.

Maybe 4x leyline main deck? (no good against goblins etc, but kills iggy, pre FS thresh, and flash dead!)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I always found Sinkhole and Wasteland to be terrible against Threshold. Since, y'know, their mana curve tops out at 2.

[Citrus-God]

I always found Sinkhole and Wasteland to be terrible against Threshold. Since, y'know, their mana curve tops out at 2.

And if they get their 3rd Land out with a Bear, you know Enforcer is coming...

[Zilla]

And if they get their 3rd Land out with a Bear, you know Enforcer is coming...
And because land destruction jus helps feed threshold. Occasionally a first turn Wasteland can really screw up the rest of their game, but aside from that, I agree that land destruction is pretty terrible against them.

Sinkhole is pretty terrible against most things. It's bad against Hulk Flash, and it's dismal against Goblins. Land destruction is only really useful when it comes in 3's or 4's, in my experience. If Sinkhole is backed by both Wasteland and Vindicate, then it can effectively shut down a lot of decks. Without the additional land destruction, it's utterly awful on its own.

I think the deck would benefit a great deal (particularly against Flash) by dropping the Sinks and Wastes and focusing on a more aggressive strategy. As Jack mentioned, Jitte is quite good against the KJ version of the combo, assuming you live long enough to use it. Unmask or Cabal Therapy would be good replacements for Sinkhole, as they're useful against Flash, Thresh, and Goblins.

[Lemuria]

And because land destruction jus helps feed threshold. Occasionally a first turn Wasteland can really screw up the rest of their game, but aside from that, I agree that land destruction is pretty terrible against them.

Sinkhole is pretty terrible against most things. It's bad against Hulk Flash, and it's dismal against Goblins. Land destruction is only really useful when it comes in 3's or 4's, in my experience. If Sinkhole is backed by both Wasteland and Vindicate, then it can effectively shut down a lot of decks. Without the additional land destruction, it's utterly awful on its own.

I think the deck would benefit a great deal (particularly against Flash) by dropping the Sinks and Wastes and focusing on a more aggressive strategy. As Jack mentioned, Jitte is quite good against the KJ version of the combo, assuming you live long enough to use it. Unmask or Cabal Therapy would be good replacements for Sinkhole, as they're useful against Flash, Thresh, and Goblins.

I love LD, I love sinkhole and I spent a fucking money to get 4.

BUT, I'm afraid I have to agree with that argument.

[Hummingbird TG]

I'd play Cabal Therapy over unmask. Taking away 2 of their combo piees>taking only one.

[Zilla]

Yup. I've been testing 4 Therapy over Sinkhole, 1 Swamp, 1 Tomb of Urami, and 2 Jittes over Wasteland, and Confidant over Chain Lightning and the single Anurid. Against Flash, it's pretty solid. I won't say it's definitively positive, because there are far too many Flash builds out there to say that it's good against all of them, but it's decent against some.

Therapy is good in conjunction with Duress, but without it there are times I wish it were Unmask. It's very, very important to get key cards out of Flash's hand as early as possible, perferably on turn 1. Unmask allows for that, but it costs you card advantage, and you usually have to pitch a threat to it, which means a slower clock and a higher chance your opponent can recover.

It feels kind of weird splashing red only for Bolt in the main, but with Goblins being less of a concern and instant speed actually be relevant in terms of stopping or slowing the Kiki form of Flash combo, I felt it was correct to forego the Chain Lightnings in lieu of Confidants, which not only draw you into more disruption, but give you more creatures to sac to Therapy when necessary.

Jitte is surprisingly good against Flash combo, in that it can be used to remove Karmic Guide against the one version and to gain life against the other. It's also solid in the Goblins matchup.

[Bane of the Living]

Has anyone tried out Flesh Reaver? It seems like Negs is the only super clock we have agaisnt HF. Keeping the Chain Lightnings in to compliment the reavers will be a lot of damage if you can survive the first ocuple turns.

[blackguard90]

current builds of threshold run 17 mana (6-8 fetches) correct? I had a lot of games where I won because I mana screwed them. I don't care if you have a mongoose out when I have 8 points of power, and I also don't advocate cutting sinks and wastelands because they don't suck if you can keep thresh off a color, and again, although most of their things are 1 mana or 2 mana, if you can keep them at 1, you should do OK. Don't tell me sinkholes and wastelands don't win games, because they steal games against almost any deck, even a deck like threshold with a low curve (low land count, so this works to your advantage, sometimes they have 1 brainstorm and 1 land, and if they can't brain anything, they lose.)

We all talked about reaver already, the lifeloss is ver significant, so right now there is no place for him.

[Bane of the Living]

current builds of threshold run 17 mana (6-8 fetches) correct? I had a lot of games where I won because I mana screwed them. I don't care if you have a mongoose out when I have 8 points of power, and I also don't advocate cutting sinks and wastelands because they don't suck if you can keep thresh off a color, and again, although most of their things are 1 mana or 2 mana, if you can keep them at 1, you should do OK. Don't tell me sinkholes and wastelands don't win games, because they steal games against almost any deck, even a deck like threshold with a low curve (low land count, so this works to your advantage, sometimes they have 1 brainstorm and 1 land, and if they can't brain anything, they lose.)

We all talked about reaver already, the lifeloss is ver significant, so right now there is no place for him.

You realize your arguing a meta game call with Godzilla right? No offense but you just powered up an account a month ago. His arguements are completely justified whereas your simply stubborn to change. I realize Sinkholes are expensive. I have 3 minty beta ones I wanna smash lands with them just as bad as you. The thing is they just dont carry their worth in dollars anymore. The card is terrible against Goblins, bad against Thresh, and horrendous against Loam decks. Hulk Flash will literally stand on their chair in hysterics when you Sinkhole them and win anyways. Tendrils could give a shit about a land drop and in the mirror matches you should be casting Hymn instead.

You really need Vindicate to complement the strategy or else it falls short and only produces a turns worth of attrition. Of course you can get really lucky with a mana screwed opponent but you should just be making that trade with Wasteland so not to take up a spell for the turn.

Rather than tear Wasteland out of the deck I think swapping to Rishadin Port would be the better call. That way we have the taxing effect of port against decks that are light on resources but we dont have a useless card in the face of basic lands.

[Citrus-God]

current builds of threshold run 17 mana (6-8 fetches) correct?

I'm sorry.... you just had to trigger me posting here. Yes, they run 17 Lands, but guess what? They also run 12 1cc Cantrips if they do run 17 Lands. That means it's going to be very hard to mana screw them. I know I've beaten Red Death and Homebrew like crazy before.


I had a lot of games where I won because I mana screwed them. I don't care if you have a mongoose out when I have 8 points of power, and I also don't advocate cutting sinks and wastelands because they don't suck if you can keep thresh off a color, and again, although most of their things are 1 mana or 2 mana, if you can keep them at 1, you should do OK.

Wait... so you mulligan the hell out of your deck just to try and mana screw Thresh? Good luck going to 3 cards then. You win by disurpting them small effects, and winning the big game with fatties. Mana screw doesnt beat Thresh, it merely slows them down so your win conditions become effective, because the more time they have, the more likely they will outclass your win conditions with theirs. In short, win now, or dont win at all.



Don't tell me sinkholes and wastelands don't win games, because they steal games against almost any deck, even a deck like threshold with a low curve (low land count, so this works to your advantage, sometimes they have 1 brainstorm and 1 land, and if they can't brain anything, they lose.)

They have Portent and Serum Visions. Another favorite thing I like to do against Red Death is call Wasteland with early Needles.

[BreathWeapon]

Have people considered removing Sinkhole and Wasteland and replacing them with Magus of the Moon and Simian Spirit Guide? The amount of acceleration and threats increase and the soft lock replaces the rest of the mana denial, since Wasteland is 1 one for 1 and Sinkhole is awful against Daze, it seems solid, and there's 4 more Blood Moon in the SB.

[Cait_Sith]

Have people considered removing Sinkhole and Wasteland and replacing them with Magus of the Moon and Simian Spirit Guide? The amount of acceleration and threats increase and the soft lock replaces the rest of the mana denial, since Wasteland is 1 one for 1 and Sinkhole is awful against Daze, it seems solid, and there's 4 more Blood Moon in the SB.

The red is a splash. Why add a RED accelerant for a RED splash? Red Death needs one Badland to accommodate all of its red, so I cannot possibly see ANY use in replacing a land, which can be useful sometimes, with an accelerant, especially when there is little to accelerate (Dark Ritual is strictly better in Red Death). Besides: Wasteland > Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon vs Affinity, one of Red Death's worst matchups.

On the topic of Daze: True, Sinkhole sucks against Daze. However, this can be fixed by: Targeting an Island; Using a Duress turn 1, Sinkhole turn 2; Not boarding in Sinkhole anyway.

[tylerwylie]

Both points are valid.

In Legacy, many many decks will try to get by with as little lands as possible. 4 Sinkhole and 4 Wasteland can be enough disruption to basically win you the game. These aren't meant as a strategy of totally denying your opponent resources, like Pox and Stax do, these are just ways to put your opponent behind in turns, maintain that advantage and also possibly turn their great hand into a bad one because they don't draw lands.

On the other hand, 8 different cards like these can be totally dead draws later on, when you are hoping to top-deck and the game has gone awry. Having 12 set cards, as in B/W do, that can take out lands as well as a Confidant to help draw more is much more effective at this kind of disruption. You get nice starts and can set them back extremely far with cards such as Dark Ritual, Duress and then Sinkhole is always a good start if they don't lead with the fetch.

But really, it just depends on the pilot, I personally favor playing with these cards, as well as Confidant, but if I were to take them out for more damaging spells, maybe Incinerate or another burn spell or main-deck Jitte's I don't think I wouldn't mind not seeing them. There is no reason not to run wasteland, but Sinkhole could be easily replaced. I will say this though, in Pox just drawing one Sinkhole and using it can be enough to win the game, as so many decks try to run as little land as possible. Maybe I'm just a fan of blowing up stuff. God I love these colors.

:b: :r: :br: FTW

[BreathWeapon]

The red is a splash. Why add a RED accelerant for a RED splash? Red Death needs one Badland to accommodate all of its red, so I cannot possibly see ANY use in replacing a land, which can be useful sometimes, with an accelerant, especially when there is little to accelerate (Dark Ritual is strictly better in Red Death). Besides: Wasteland > Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon vs Affinity, one of Red Death's worst matchups.

On the topic of Daze: True, Sinkhole sucks against Daze. However, this can be fixed by: Targeting an Island; Using a Duress turn 1, Sinkhole turn 2; Not boarding in Sinkhole anyway.

Because turn one Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon is as good as GG against aggro-control and control, and Simian Spirit Guide is still a useful top deck as a 3 for a 2/2 creature when Sinkhole and Wasteland are useless.

If Hulk Flash pushes the metagame towards combo and aggro-control, then Chalice of the Void and Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon could clean up on their curves and mana bases.

It's also possible that SSG could just replace one of the other creatures, because it's a creature itself, and turn one Confidants and turn two Specters recoup the card disadvantage.

[nitewolf9]

I just top 4'd a PTQ with this deck and wound up losing to CRET belcher. He won the die roll but I am confidant if I had played first I would have won (my hand was retarded but only if I was on the play). Anyway, I played 3 hulk flash decks and beat 2 of them pretty thoroughly. The one I didn't beat was when he had enough cantrips in hand to hide his combo pieces/find them through my hand disruption, both games. Lim-dul's vault is a bitch and I'm still trying to find a solution to it. I also played against solidarity, and red-based loam control in the top 8.

[blackguard90]

I just top 4'd a PTQ with this deck and wound up losing to CRET belcher. He won the die roll but I am confident if I had played first I would have won (my hand was retarded but only if I was on the play). Anyway, I played 3 hulk flash decks and beat 2 of them pretty thoroughly. The one I didn't beat was when he had enough cantrips in hand to hide his combo pieces/find them through my hand disruption, both games. Lim-dul's vault is a bitch and I'm still trying to find a solution to it. I also played against solidarity, and red-based loam control in the top 8.

Gratz, yeah that happens man. Its always who ever goes first. So did you lose 0-2 against belcher?

@Bane of the Living:
No, i'm not stubborn, but i don't see anything that would make the deck better by cutting wastelands and sinkholes.

Sorry, but i think Rashidian port is absolutely retarded in a bad way. Port is only effective early game, and it is absolutely anti-synergistic with your whole deck. Your going to be playing dark rit->threat or discard spells before your opponent plays their cards, so why the hell do you want to spend 2 lands on locking them for a turn when you can waste a land and play a duress?

Sinkholes combined with wastelands can steal games from any competitive deck in legacy. For the most part, yeah they suck against goblins. I will emphasize my point again, Sinkholes and Wastelands STEAL GAMES and makes sure your opponent can't play big threats likes mystic enforcers and Flametongue kavus. They complement your strategy very well, because you want to keep your opponent from playing blockers or removal while you beat down.

if you tested the deck more, you will realize that it doesn't suck against everything you say it does. Hulk flash isn't a bad match-up, unless they kill you turn 1, and its even better after you side in 4x leyline and 3x cabal therapies.

Also, you DON'T NEED TO MANASCREW YOUR OPPONENTS! The wastelands and sinkholes act as semi-timewalks for you by giving you a turn of peace and quiet while you smash in for another turn. These cards get rid of things bothering you also: like a tapped wasteland, rashidian port, maze of ith etc. They have many capabilities aside from mana denial. This is why they make the deck better.

Can you honestly say that you can add 8x "cards that are better" to improve the decks performance against thresh (40%) and goblins (50%) or even hulk flash? When there are real results, showing that the version without sinkholes or wastelands then i'll believe you. My main point is don't mess with the deck if it isn't a definate improvement.

@Anti-american:
Its not about totally manascrewing them, I said that they CAN manascrew decks. In certain cases, you can steal games by manascrew. I don't advocate removing the 8 LD element of the deck because right now there isn't anything that is 100% better. As I said to Bane of the Living, the sinkholes and wastes are not in here for manascrew, but to protect your creatures and clear the path for them. And just like you said, LD slows down thresh so RD threats become more effective. If your so against me saying that the 8 LD pieces should be kept in the deck, what do you suggest? It seems if you are arguing with me just because you want to. You insinuated that I only use the LD as a way to manascrew people, which is not the case if you see what i said to BoTL. Right... and if you honestly don't know what your opponent is playing, I don't think you'll blindly name Wasteland with needle (vial, survival, salvergers...)unless you got 1 land in hand.


@ Breathweapon:

magus- Maybe
Simian- No

@ All:
Are there anycards that deal with topdeck tutors or library manipulation?

[nitewolf9]

I lost both games to belcher because I kept a subpar hand game 2. It had something like a cabal therapy and an extirpate, and a nantuko shade as the threat. I thought I could hit the belcher with the therapy and extirpate it, and draw into e plague if he went for warrens (which he did and I didn't draw into an answer). Bad move on my part but I was tired and frustrated.

Land D is not going to be as effective with hulk flash running around. They need 2 mana only to go off and run artifact mana as well. I was very happy with 4 maindeck cabal therapies over the sinkholes, and 20 lands not including wasteland (which I didn't run). Extirpate still sucks, btw. Leyline is way better, especially in this deck when they have to answer it through disruption and a blazing fast clock (I also ran 2 flesh reavers which were amazing). It also would have been hilarious to go against one of those crappy fish decks that thinks they beat hulk flash.

[Citrus-God]

@Anti-american:
Its not about totally manascrewing them, I said that they CAN manascrew decks. In certain cases, you can steal games by manascrew. I don't advocate removing the 8 LD element of the deck because right now there isn't anything that is 100% better.

In a metagame full of Hulk, I personally think something like MDed Leyline, Unmask, or even Therapy would do much better.


As I said to Bane of the Living, the sinkholes and wastes are not in here for manascrew, but to protect your creatures and clear the path for them.

What I said basically.


And just like you said, LD slows down thresh so RD threats become more effective.

Yup. I view this deck as the new Red Deck Wins. It's has better threats, and is much more aggressive than the generic RDW.


If your so against me saying that the 8 LD pieces should be kept in the deck, what do you suggest?

No, I just disagreed with your statement that playing against Threshold is all about land count. Personally, I believe the ideal way to beat Threshold is keep your Negators safe, while LD do their work by delaying them from their Enforcers.


It seems if you are arguing with me just because you want to.


No, not really. I just post when I see something wrong with something. From your post, it seemed that you said LD was meant to mana screw players, not slow them down.


You insinuated that I only use the LD as a way to manascrew people, which is not the case if you see what i said to BoTL. Right... and if you honestly don't know what your opponent is playing, I don't think you'll blindly name Wasteland with needle (vial, survival, salvergers...)unless you got 1 land in hand.

I'm good with reads. If they wear nice cloths and seem like conservitive players and I see a Swamp, I know they're either playing Bw Confidant or Red Death.


@ All:
Are there anycards that deal with topdeck tutors or library manipulation?

Extirpate, Shimian Specter, etc, etc...

[blackguard90]

I'm good with reads. If they wear nice cloths and seem like conservitive players and I see a Swamp, I know they're either playing Bw Confidant or Red Death.

lol...

Shimian is too damn expensive for the deck (CMC), and extirpate is only good against combo also there are already 12 spots that are definate in the SB (leyline, plague, dystopia).

[lolosoon]

@ All:
Are there anycards that deal with topdeck tutors or library manipulation?
Good Ones ?! In Black or Red ?! Dunno...
Wand of Denial (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=9471) ?!?
Or mill effects. But they suxx.

On a side note, I'll only SB Leyline (and maybe Chalices @ 0 ) and MD/SB more discard against Hulk Smash for now (Unmask//Extirpate//???).
Post FS -if there's no Flash ban- and Hulk Flash getting 8 Pacts, I would play $t@x or switch Red for Blue and more countermeasures.

[blackguard90]

Good Ones ?! In Black or Red ?! Dunno...
Wand of Denial (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=9471) ?!?
Or mill effects. But they suxx.

On a side note, I'll only SB Leyline (and maybe Chalices @ 0 ) and MD/SB more discard against Hulk Smash for now (Unmask//Extirpate//???).
Post FS -if there's no Flash ban- and Hulk Flash getting 8 Pacts, I would play $t@x or switch Red for Blue and more countermeasures.

the blue pact is the real bitch (no effect to red death, but a pain in the ass for anyone packing force of wills, stifles etc), the green one just make them faster. Even if you play stax, post FS flash is going to have more turn 1 or turn 2 wins. So which deck have a better match-up, red death or stax? Then this question have to be considered: who gets to play first? For red death, we love god-hands involving dark-rit, duress, hymn. and for Stax, you love chalice etc. I don't think there are ANY deck in legacy that have a match-up better than 50/50 against flash hulk (this is for DEDICATED FLASH HATER DECKS).

Unmask is really meh.. you got 7 red cards, and every other black card is disruption or creature. You can throw away your only threat and hope they don;'t get anything in the next 3 turns or you throw away a hymn.

[JimmyC27]

Is there any benefit to running 1 less Negator for 1 extra something else?

Maybe I'm a sissy, and I do realize he's a beast, but he scares me.

[thefreakaccident]

Negator is by far the best bang for your buck creature in the format... a 5/5 that can come online turn 1... that can be a third turn win... the only time that I would consider not running a full compliment is where I know there will be pleanty of red decks running around (negator hates goblins/burn/streisand beats).

[JimmyC27]

Negator is by far the best bang for your buck creature in the format... a 5/5 that can come online turn 1... that can be a third turn win... the only time that I would consider not running a full compliment is where I know there will be pleanty of red decks running around (negator hates goblins/burn/streisand beats).

Going off the Goblins meta.. It seems like sideboarding out 4 Negators for 4 Plague pretty much guarantees game 2 and/or 3?

[kicks_422]

I don't think it's the Negators that they side out. I think it's the Sinkholes. Negator is pretty much the only real clock you have against Goblins, even with the risk of Pyrokinesis shenanigans.

[Citrus-God]

lol...

Shimian is too damn expensive for the deck (CMC), and extirpate is only good against combo also there are already 12 spots that are definate in the SB (leyline, plague, dystopia).

Well... It's a combo metagame now. You stop them from winning, or you dont win at all. That's a good reason to run Extirpate. Besides, it cant be that bad against decks like Fish really, since you have better creatures than them anyway.

Shimian doesnt really matter. He's slow, but again, against Hulk Flash, he is much better than Hypnotic Specter. It's not like your going to play a first turn Specter against Hulk Flash, and if you do play it later, you'd much rather have Shimian over Hypnotic in the Hulk Flash match up.

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't think it's the Negators that they side out. I think it's the Sinkholes. Negator is pretty much the only real clock you have against Goblins, even with the risk of Pyrokinesis shenanigans.

Giant is your main damage source against goblins sans Negator. I would say though that its Hypie that wins the game against Goblins in my experience. Their curve is so erratic that Hypie can rip their hand apart before they really have a chance to do anything.

[Citrus-God]

Giant is your main damage source against goblins sans Negator. I would say though that its Hypie that wins the game against Goblins in my experience. Their curve is so erratic that Hypie can rip their hand apart before they really have a chance to do anything.

Jitte also makes Giant stay alive so it can cause more damage.... Well, a Jitte on Shade or Specter works too. Jitte is already a threat on it's own really, but it just needs a solid creature to do it. You have around 13 creatures post-board, but you have 4 Plagues as well to stall until you get your men and Jittes together.

[PhanTom_lt]

Just wanted to ask something:
What's the next best burn spell to play instead of Chain Lightnings? A bit hard to obtain them. Or Should i just play some creatures/removal instead?

[Citrus-God]

Well, in those slots, you can consider Mogg Fanatic, Magma Jet, and/or Cursed Scroll. I wouldnt consider more guys, but more disruption/form of control (removal and such) would work. You can try Avalanche Riders, but then again, you dont need that much LD.

[blackguard90]

Just wanted to ask something:
What's the next best burn spell to play instead of Chain Lightnings? A bit hard to obtain them. Or Should i just play some creatures/removal instead?

Well, if your going up to the 2 mana level, you should have:

magma jet
incinerate
volcanic hammer (suck)
Diabolic edict (would be my choice after lightning cause it owns mystic enforcer and stuff)
pyroclasm (hehe just kidding!)

For 1 mana, there is nothing better than chain lightning, sad to say. And btw, chain lightnings are not expensive (5 bucks each), just a little hard to find. If you have sinkholes, it shouldn't be hard for you to get chain lightnings. Anyways, you can always try out the trade forums.


On a sidenote: I tested this version of the deck, as suggested by Godzilla

RD 1.2

Deck (58/60)

Mana: (24)
9x Swamp
1x Tomb of Urami
3x Badlands
3x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Dark Ritual

Creature: (16)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter

Disruption: (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach

Reach/Creature Removal: (4)
4x Lightning Bolt

Own: (2)
2x Umezawa's Jitte

The only thing I'm unsure about is to add 2x rotting giants, synergistic with jitte and therapy, or add 2x Chain Lightning to add more reach and removal.
And if we decide to cut lightning for a combo environment, then we don't need 10 red sources. We can instead do 3x delta, 3x mire and 2x badlands (not a big deal, have all the cards)

It definately does a better job against combo. But against decks like survival, I've died twice due to flametongue kavu being hard cast and the gay spore frog/genesis lock. Also, I've lost to 43 land with its maze of ith...

[Citrus-God]

What is the point of running Red if all that's going to be there is a playset of Bolts? I mean, theres other things, like Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares, and such. You can get this back into old school Sui Black and replace the Bolts with Unmasks. You might want a set of Jittes here though to make up for the lack of removal. I was thinking

-3 Badlands
-4 Lightning Bolt

+4 Unmask/Leyline of the Void
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Rotting Giants/Flesh Reaver/Extirpate (If you're going for Unmask)

[blackguard90]

yes... but I like playing removal so my negator can get a clean hit every turn. Also, lightning bolt combined with chain lightning is the reason we stand a chance against certain decks. I know suicide black pretty well, and I know how it runs out of gas (confidant gets killed every damn turn it comes into play). Without the 6-7 bolts, this deck just straight loses to goblins first game unless you get a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very good hand. This deck is supposed to be a deck that can compete against any other deck. And unless goblins is completely wiped away from the competitive format due to combo, I wouldn't cut the bolts. And yes, I think i'll play 2x chain lightning.

[Citrus-God]

yes... but I like playing removal so my negator can get a clean hit every turn. Also, lightning bolt combined with chain lightning is the reason we stand a chance against certain decks. I know suicide black pretty well, and I know how it runs out of gas (confidant gets killed every damn turn it comes into play). Without the 6-7 bolts, this deck just straight loses to goblins first game unless you get a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very good hand. This deck is supposed to be a deck that can compete against any other deck. And unless goblins is completely wiped away from the competitive format due to combo, I wouldn't cut the bolts. And yes, I think i'll play 2x chain lightning.

Sounds good, add those along with Confidant. Of course, hardly any Goblins in the format now. You can add in better disruption against certain decks. Blazing Specter maybe? I dunno, it might be a bad idea for those to be in there.

[nitewolf9]

This deck can be tuned to have good game against hulk flash while keeping in the essential burn. The point is to steamroll other crappy decks that are designed to only beat hulk flash, and yes, some people will still be playing goblins, no doubt. I've found the only thing needed is to cut all the land d for more discard, run a couple of flesh reavers (over anurid and the 21'st land, since we'll have 24 black sources with the rituals now without wasteland), and pack leyline in the board. This deck will abuse leyline more effectively than any other because it has a fast clock and hand disruption; that means they have to assemble the win AND bounce through all of that.

[Happy Gilmore]

This deck can be tuned to have good game against hulk flash while keeping in the essential burn. The point is to steamroll other crappy decks that are designed to only beat hulk flash, and yes, some people will still be playing goblins, no doubt. I've found the only thing needed is to cut all the land d for more discard, run a couple of flesh reavers (over anurid and the 21'st land, since we'll have 24 black sources with the rituals now without wasteland), and pack leyline in the board. This deck will abuse leyline more effectively than any other because it has a fast clock and hand disruption; that means they have to assemble the win AND bounce through all of that.

QFT and justice.



What's the next best burn spell to play instead of Chain Lightnings? A bit hard to obtain them. Or Should i just play some creatures/removal instead?

Its debatable but you definitly want a 1cc burn spell. My personal inclination would be to run Seal of Fire which is extremely mana efficient + has interesting synergy with Negator lol. :laugh:

Edit: Did I mention that Seal of Fire stops the Kiki version of Hulk from going off while being uncounterable? Even with Bodyguard in play, now thats sexy.

[nitewolf9]

Seal of fire...that is interesting. That probably would be a good budget substitute for chain lightning. Plus you get the "wtf are you playing?" factor from your opponent if you drop it turn one.

[Tacosnape]

Its debatable but you definitly want a 1cc burn spell. My personal inclination would be to run Seal of Fire which is extremely mana efficient + has interesting synergy with Negator lol. :laugh:

I second this. The synergy with Negator shouldn't be underestimated, much like Leyline of the Void. In fact, not only that, It also allows you to do something on turn one if you don't have a Duress or Dark Ritual and they don't have a threat on the board.

[AnwarA101]

This deck can be tuned to have good game against hulk flash while keeping in the essential burn. The point is to steamroll other crappy decks that are designed to only beat hulk flash, and yes, some people will still be playing goblins, no doubt. I've found the only thing needed is to cut all the land d for more discard, run a couple of flesh reavers (over anurid and the 21'st land, since we'll have 24 black sources with the rituals now without wasteland), and pack leyline in the board. This deck will abuse leyline more effectively than any other because it has a fast clock and hand disruption; that means they have to assemble the win AND bounce through all of that.

You have very little defense against top-deck tutors (Lim Dul's Vault, Mystical Tutor) and that makes the matchup pretty dicey. I'm not convinced that Red Death is a good choice against Hulk Flash or even CRET Belcher. If anyone was wondering, I don't think I'll be playing Red Death at the Grand Prix. I don't want to discourage anyone from playing it, but I feel that it needs to be modified for Hulk Flash and CRET Belcher. These changes may just lead to it being weak against aggro, but I'm just not sure. With limited testing time, I'm not sure what deck I'll opt for. Any advice for a wayward player?

[Tacosnape]

Maindeck your Leylines, add Chrome Moxes, and board a quad of Needles and a quad of Plagues. Speed will be everything at this GP. Needle and Plague stop CRET Belcher moderately well when backed up with discard, Plague hurts Goblins, Needle hurts random jank like Survival and fetchlands, and the maindeck Leylines will let you fight Hulk Flash, Iggy Pop, and Threshold, which should all be there in abundance.

Also, run your Negators without fear. Negator is amazing when you run Moxes and Leylines. It takes a lot of the fear out of the deck.

Turns out I might get to the GP after all. If I do, I'll be running Paint It Black, which is Suicide Black with some bizarre tech in it.

I think black-based Sui can be tweaked to hang at the GP pretty well, and Red Death is no exception. I'm kind of sad to hear you won't be piloting it, Anwar. If you want to talk to me about any of my testing against Flash or Belcher, please let me know. I'd feel better about the state of magic if all these deck creators weren't backing off their masterpieces.

[AnwarA101]

Maindeck your Leylines, add Chrome Moxes, and board a quad of Needles and a quad of Plagues. Speed will be everything at this GP. Needle and Plague stop CRET Belcher moderately well when backed up with discard, Plague hurts Goblins, Needle hurts random jank like Survival and fetchlands, and the maindeck Leylines will let you fight Hulk Flash, Iggy Pop, and Threshold, which should all be there in abundance.


I've never really run Leyline at all, but running it main seems like you have to accept that it'll be dead some of the time. I guess Pithing Needle out of the board for Belcher can be strong, though game 1 can be difficult. Chrome Mox is an interesting idea, but are you cutting lands for it? But it might just eat your hand too fast given that you already play ritual.



Also, run your Negators without fear. Negator is amazing when you run Moxes and Leylines. It takes a lot of the fear out of the deck.

Turns out I might get to the GP after all. If I do, I'll be running Paint It Black, which is Suicide Black with some bizarre tech in it.

I think black-based Sui can be tweaked to hang at the GP pretty well, and Red Death is no exception. I'm kind of sad to hear you won't be piloting it, Anwar. If you want to talk to me about any of my testing against Flash or Belcher, please let me know. I'd feel better about the state of magic if all these deck creators weren't backing off their masterpieces.

I don't fear running Negator. He's always come through for me.

What's your testing against Flash or Belcher been like? I would love to hear some numbers and some stories.

[Seraphim]

I've been working on sui black with a blue splash and it has been testing well so far. Its not exactly red death, but more of a hybrid of red death, deadguy, and fish.

here is the list for reference:

3c Death
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Umezawwa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Dark Ritual

2 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Negator (could be replaced...want suggestions)
3 Rotting Giant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter


4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 ??? Testing will only tell; possibly needles, disenchants, darkblasts, or swords to plowshares


I know this deck has quite a few weaknesses. I've found that Stifle is almost better than sinkhole at gaining tempo, though. Brainstorm has been a godsend lategame when my opponent and I are both in topdeck mode and I have useless discard in hand. The main problem I'm having with this list is that its like 30-70 vs everything not fish preboard, then I board in bombs and its like 70-30 postboard (against everything except belcher).

I'd much rather be 70-30 against more than one thing preboard.

Belcher can definitely be a problem, though. Stifle can help, but not sure just how much. I am thinking about dropping the Negators down to a 2 or 1 of and adding withered wretches in their spots. This deck never wants to see more than one Negator because it doesn't have the burn to plow the road for them. I'm contemplating serendib efreet in their place, but not sure if 3 power is enough bang for my buck in that slot.

Definitely interested in tweaks to this deck if people have their suggestions.

Thanks in advance,
Nick

@Anwar - Testing against Flash has been pretty good, 35-65 (not in favor) preboard and 70-30 (in favor) postboard. This deck is a savage beating for the thresholds and fishes out there, though.

[Tacosnape]

I've never really run Leyline at all, but running it main seems like you have to accept that it'll be dead some of the time. I guess Pithing Needle out of the board for Belcher can be strong, though game 1 can be difficult. Chrome Mox is an interesting idea, but are you cutting lands for it? But it might just eat your hand too fast given that you already play ritual.

Chrome Mox was actually an inclusion that I stuck in Paint it Black based on several points.

1. Suicide Black sucks at things to do on turn one. Red Death doesn't have this problem as much with the burn, obviously.
2. A dead Leyline of the Void can be imprinted on it.
3. If you have too much acceleration in your hand, a Dark Ritual can be imprinted on it.
4. It can always be dropped unimprinted and fast if you need backup for your Negator.

What I cut for Chrome Mox was Wasteland. I hate Wasteland and Sinkhole both in the world of Flash and I cut them both without a second thought, and as long as Hulk Flash exists I strongly recommend doing so for all versions of suicide black. What you need is speed threats, discard, and disruptive permanents. I was never a huge fan of Wasteland/Sinkhole beforehand, but there were times when they were golden. Now Land Destruction is a weaker strategy than ever, and you can't afford to be mulliganing for both double black and for an opening hand Leyline.

Leyline is at times dead, as you say, and I'd never run it in a Flash-less meta. However, since a lot of the top decks to beat Flash seem to be Threshold, Iggy Pop, and Tog, Maindeck Leyline gives you the ability to absolutely crush said decks while being good against Flash. This allows me to achieve my goal of creating a deck that -can- beat Hulk Flash while being incredibly awesome against all the Hulk Flash hate decks.



I don't fear running Negator. He's always come through for me.

What's your testing against Flash or Belcher been like? I would love to hear some numbers and some stories.

I know you don't fear Negator, my friend. The advice was for the other wayward players. You taught me not to fear Negator. He's just better than ever with Leylines and Moxes.

Flash testing varies. I'm favorable against some builds and not so favorable against others. I absolutely hate the versions that stack the top of their deck, though they aren't unbeatable with a fast Leyline and some discard. Strangely, I found I do much better backing up the Leyline if I aim for their spells that get them the bounce they need (Like Lim-Dul's Vault and Mystical Tutor) than if I aim for Flash, though this obviously varies based on their hand.

There's so many different versions of this deck that it's hard to get a set number. I've won way more matches than I've lost, but some builds are better than others. If I had to guess I'd say my current build is 50-50 against the collective broad spectrum of Hulk Flash.

What's immensely frustrating, though, is how many times I open with a turn one Duress or turn one Hymn and then lose the very next turn anyway.:P Happened two games in a row at one point.

Belcher can be tough, but it's not nearly as bad as Flash, though. Duress/Therapy steals games if I win the die roll, and I have Serum Powder/Plague/Needle in board for any problems beyond that. Most games either go "They go first, they win," "I go first, I disrupt and crunch through," or on rare occasion, "They go first, ETW, and I'm holding Rit/Plague." It's an incredibly boring match to test, but if you have the full board configuration I'd claim about 70/30 winning the die roll and about 40/60 if I lose it. Slightly favorable overall.

The strength in this deck is that with the Leylines it becomes favorable against Threshold, where I never really felt it was before. And all my testing has been solid against decks that claim good results against Hulk Flash.

Oh, and, the goblin match sucks a lot more with all the changes, if you hadn't surmised as much. My guess is that if you take this to the GP either you'll go 4-0 and avoid goblins the rest of the day, or lose early to Goblins and get dragged into the endless quagmire of .500 little red men that couldn't beat Flash.

[Citrus-God]

Curious here.... what is Paint it Black?

Edit. My next deck will be named Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker).

[AnwarA101]

@Tacosnape: I can see how running Leyline could definitely improve the matchup pre-board against Threshold as making all their guys small for good makes your guys amazing. But what about Goblins? Do you have enough answers for Goblin Lackey? I imagine with both Chrome Mox and Ritual you have enough opening plays that answer it. Though I guess post-board with Plagues things get better. How do you feel about your Goblin matchup?

[blackguard90]

Hey, if Flash is going to be that prevalent, then why the hell would some 1 play goblin? Flash have been publisized enough that every player going to GP should know. Goblins seriously don't stand a damn chance game 1 unless they weaken their deck with a splash.

Second: The 3 color suicide deck looks stupid, no offense. You splashed white only for vindicate, which isn't great in suicide and brainstorm?? plus stifle. As we have said, red death can win if we go first most of the time against flash.

Thirdly, do we need any removal at all? It seems like people are leaning towards kiki flash instead of vault ninja. If thats the case, then why not keep some bolts or what ever. Belcher never scares me, win the die roll and you win (ok, not all the time). Also, it gets a lot better game 2 and 3.

Oh yes, and cabal therapy absolutely owns I love it.

[Tacosnape]

@Tacosnape: I can see how running Leyline could definitely improve the matchup pre-board against Threshold as making all their guys small for good makes your guys amazing. But what about Goblins? Do you have enough answers for Goblin Lackey? I imagine with both Chrome Mox and Ritual you have enough opening plays that answer it. Though I guess post-board with Plagues things get better. How do you feel about your Goblin matchup?

I feel a lot better about my Lackey matchup than my Goblins matchup, if that makes sense. I win a lot of games where they have Lackey and no Vial as I can almost always answer it. It's Vial that tends to be the problem, though with well-placed discard on Matron and Ringleader it's a pretty decent game.

With the Plagues it only gets easier, especially since I leave in six discard spells (I board in 4 Plagues and 2 Serum Powders in Paint it Black) to get rid of Plague answers.

It still isn't a fantastic matchup, though. I'd claim 40%-45% against Goblins. As said many a time, it's nearly impossible to build a deck with great matches against both Flash and Goblins.

EDIT: If you're taking B/R Sui to the GP, cut Chain Lightning for Seal of Fire if you didn't already cut it for Leyline (I cut Sinkhole for Leyline.) If you open against Flash with a Leyline, followed by a turn 1 Seal of Fire, they are going to have some serious problems if they're running the Kiki version. Not to mention Seal's almost as good against Goblins.

[Firebrothers]

Yeah if I am not mistaken a single bolt on the karmic guide ruins flashes day correct? I don't know why anyone would be fearing running this deck because with the right tweaks and a little luck you can T8 easily with all the combo in the meta. I would be afraid of the fish decks that could be running around though.

[Tacosnape]

Yeah if I am not mistaken a single bolt on the karmic guide ruins flashes day correct? I don't know why anyone would be fearing running this deck because with the right tweaks and a little luck you can T8 easily with all the combo in the meta. I would be afraid of the fish decks that could be running around though.

I admit I haven't tested Red Death versus UBW Fish hardly at all. I think I've played the match like once or twice ever. Anyone have any numbers or stats or stories on this?

[Lemuria]

I was playtesting with a black version of Stax and I found chalice and trinisphere absolutly amazing against Hulk Flash, combos and control in general, as I didn't loose any match to them. I also had a very good match against aggro as I didn't loose any match, cause Stax has a very effective board control.

So, any chances of including stax pieces on red death, like chalice or trini?

[Happy Gilmore]

I was playtesting with a black version of Stax and I found chalice and trinisphere absolutly amazing against Hulk Flash, combos and control in general, as I didn't loose any match to them. I also had a very good match against aggro as I didn't loose any match, cause Stax has a very effective board control.

So, any chances of including stax pieces on red death, like chalice or trini?

I don't see that working withought changing the layout of the deck completely

Red Death gives up artifact lock pieces for

Duress
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Hymn (to a lesser extent)

Out of the board you bring in Layline at it slows them down to a snails pace. You rip their hand apart while they try and find an answer to it. Nightwolf9 was using extipate at the GP but said he would have been much better off with Layline.

Theoretically Red Death has game against Hulk Flash while still being able to beat the fish decks. So it might be a good metagame choice imo. I only wish it beat Hulk Flash on a consistent basis, and against all versions. Daze is a bitch and a half. >_<

Although, you could run chalice in the board against Storm combo. I think in the current meta with the number of Stifles and FoWs found in maindecks, worrying about storm seems unnecessary.

[nitewolf9]

I advocate pithing needle and e plague in the board for CRET belcher. Along with leyline, dystopia, and jitte, you should be able to beat any competitive deck that comes your way. Dystopia wrecks fish btw. Unless they are playing all black creatures (flesh reaver, etc.), in which case you beat them anyway.

[PhanTom_lt]

Seal of fire...that is interesting. That probably would be a good budget substitute for chain lightning. Plus you get the "wtf are you playing?" factor from your opponent if you drop it turn one.

Actually this is very good against HulkFlash with Kiki-Jiki as if they bring Benevolent Bodyguard into play, it stops the kiki-kill at least for a turn, because they have to give the guide pro-red and then kiki's ability fizzles.

[MrSoze]

Actually this is very good against HulkFlash with Kiki-Jiki as if they bring Benevolent Bodyguard into play, it stops the kiki-kill at least for a turn, because they have to give the guide pro-red and then kiki's ability fizzles.

While correct some of the time, most of the U/B HulkFlash lists I've seen are running two body snatchers. Should you wait this long with your seal and target the Karmic Guide, the proper play is not to sac the bodyguard- the proper out is to copy the Guide, return the Hulk to play, sac to the feeder, and then get the Body Snatcher to return the Karmic Guide to play. In response to the CIP effect, sac the Body Snatcher and the Kiki-Jiki, the Karmic Guide will come back, and you can just continue as normal.

The Body Snatcher outs that are available against removal that doesn't RFG (e.g. Swords) should probably be taken seriously, if only because of the depth of combo that the deck has against them. The only problem is that I don't see a particularly wonderful way to use Seal against a Flash player who knows what he's doing, but you might catch someone with their pants down. I just wouldn't count on nailing experienced Flash players with it. So long as there's one Body Snatcher in the deck, they can combo as normal.

(One add: Should your opponent moronically copy the Guide first, with a Seal in play, allowing you to remove said guide before the Kiki effect resolves, he is an idiot and should not be worried about. The above is meant more to show that targeted removal in general against the deck is not an out, most of the time. Obviously, if he targets the Guide before getting the first Snatcher to make sure the Protean Hulk is IN PLAY before he starts to combo in the face of a seal, well, GG. I reread the above scenario and realize that I didn't idiot proof it, even though I mentioned the two body snatchers in the deck for a reason. Forgive me.)

[Bovinious]

Here is the list ill be running at the GP, based off 'Zilla's suggestions and testing:

MD:
9 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Ritual

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Flesh Reaver
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 REB/Chain Lightning/Pithing Needle/Unmask (any suggestions for this slot?)

This list has been doing pretty well for me in testing, but I'm still not sure I like the 2 Flesh Reavers he really sucks if he's the only creature I draw but if coupled with another creature or a Jitte he's a house. I still may add 2 Chain Lightnings back into MD for the Reavers, not sure. It seems pretty wierd to me to be splashing red for just 4 Bolt MD but I cant think of anything better to put in, and I actually really would like the Chain Lightnings back just they dont do so well vs. Hulk Flash and other combo which I think will be a major force at the GP.

Over the last week I've been testing against Iggy Pop, and just today TES and Hulk Flash. Ive been pulling about 60/40 vs Iggy Pop which is a pretty good matchup with SB Leylines, as they need to find bounce while not get their hand raped too hard. Of course they do only need a well timed IGG to start a loop and win. I played 15 games against my teammate playing TES and it went 8-7 in my favor, pretty much went back and forth the whole way so I figure its about 50/50. Also, we played 7 Hulk Flash games preboard and 8 post board, I went 2-6 pre board but went 5-2 postboard, due to Leylines and E. Plague on zombies. I did get pretty lucky in drawing Leylines and Duress a lot, also E. plague wasnt good times for Flash either (we were running Jack's build of Flash which cant win w/o Carrion Feeder). I realize this is an extremely small sample size but I think it shows that fast combo particularly Hulk Flash post SB is a pretty winnable match for Death if you draw decently.

[PhanTom_lt]

(we were running Jack's build of Flash which cant win w/o Carrion Feeder).

He can win with Hulk Beatdown after reanimating him with Karmic Guide.

[blackguard90]

Here is the list ill be running at the GP, based off 'Zilla's suggestions and testing:

MD:
9 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Ritual

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Flesh Reaver
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 REB/Chain Lightning/Pithing Needle/Unmask (any suggestions for this slot?)

This list has been doing pretty well for me in testing, but I'm still not sure I like the 2 Flesh Reavers he really sucks if he's the only creature I draw but if coupled with another creature or a Jitte he's a house. I still may add 2 Chain Lightnings back into MD for the Reavers, not sure. It seems pretty wierd to me to be splashing red for just 4 Bolt MD but I cant think of anything better to put in, and I actually really would like the Chain Lightnings back just they dont do so well vs. Hulk Flash and other combo which I think will be a major force at the GP.

Over the last week I've been testing against Iggy Pop, and just today TES and Hulk Flash. Ive been pulling about 60/40 vs Iggy Pop which is a pretty good matchup with SB Leylines, as they need to find bounce while not get their hand raped too hard. Of course they do only need a well timed IGG to start a loop and win. I played 15 games against my teammate playing TES and it went 8-7 in my favor, pretty much went back and forth the whole way so I figure its about 50/50. Also, we played 7 Hulk Flash games preboard and 8 post board, I went 2-6 pre board but went 5-2 postboard, due to Leylines and E. Plague on zombies. I did get pretty lucky in drawing Leylines and Duress a lot, also E. plague wasnt good times for Flash either (we were running Jack's build of Flash which cant win w/o Carrion Feeder). I realize this is an extremely small sample size but I think it shows that fast combo particularly Hulk Flash post SB is a pretty winnable match for Death if you draw decently.

I'm running almost the exact list and I've been very very happy with it. Anyways, I run 2x Seal of Fire over 2x flesh reaver and 1x Tomb of Urami over 1x Polluted Delta. I have to give you some criticism on your list.

1) You have arguably 11x red sources but only 4x red spells. I would only run 2x Badlands, 3x Polluted Delta, 3x Bloodstained if I am playing 4x Lightning bolts and 2x Rotting giants. Or we can just go all black, which sometimes may suck because we lose reach.
2) Flesh Reaver really sucked in testing for me. I would rather run rotting giants in this place because he pretty much owns goblins.


Ok, now I have to ponder about adding 1x more land. I've run into more mana screw problems and feel that without wastelands as a mana source, 20 is a little skimpy. It might just be MWS being a asshole, but is it possible to add the 21th mana source, for jitte, tomb of urami.

For SB, I play the 12 cards you listed and 3x pithing needles. I might consider 3x REB/pyroblast maybe, but I might not get a red in my oppening hand. Anyways, I'll test it.

[blackguard90]

He can win with Hulk Beatdown after reanimating him with Karmic Guide.

He wouldn't dare attack with it, because we can block and bolt it. And red death's clock is alot faster than a protean hulk unless he gets out REAL quick, which isn't impossible but hard post board, especially with leyline.

[laststepdown]

The thing is, everyone is going to tune this to beat Flash, when Flash doesn't get good until after the GP. A single Duress should win the game for The Death. Don't get your panties in a bunch, the Flash deck is (imho) a setup by the pros to fix the GP. "how can we get everyone to play new untuned decks?" 'tell them they can use flash, and show them how it's broke. they'll be so busy looking for crap dollar rares that they won't tune the deck they've been playing for the last year.'

[noobslayer]

... when Flash doesn't get good until after the GP. A single Duress should win the game for The Death.... the Flash deck is (imho) a setup by the pros to fix the GP.

a) Hulk Flash is good now, unless of course you don't have eyes or ears. Even fingers, because braille would be enough of an indication that the deck is a problem now; without future sight.

b) The Pro's don't give a shit about Legacy. What makes you think they'd go to the DCI and R&D and feed them some cockameemy bullshit scheme to ruin the GP? I find that hardly plausible.

[laststepdown]

a) Hulk Flash is good now, unless of course you don't have eyes or ears. Even fingers, because braille would be enough of an indication that the deck is a problem now; without future sight.

b) The Pro's don't give a shit about Legacy. What makes you think they'd go to the DCI and R&D and feed them some cockameemy bullshit scheme to ruin the GP? I find that hardly plausible.

Have you read my signature?

Sorry for saying 'good'. The deck gets 'broke' after the GP.
And Death still has a decent match after that. That was my point.

[lolosoon]

First, if some Mod. feels my post is out of topic, please feel free to delete it.

At GP colombus we expect a lot of HF and metagamed HF hate.dec. Still, popular (pet?) decks like Goblins, Fish and Threshold will do see play (along with some storm combo decks).

I know some of you have dropped LD 'cause it sucks vs HulkFlash, and I agree on this. But I think it greatly reduce the win % vs decks like (Ubw)Fish and (Ugw/r)threshold.

Like Red death, those deck are currently tweaked to beat HF, and imho are better suited for it (especially fish, mainly due to MD discard + countermeasure and SB Leylines).

I do think you'll have to go through those deck before facing HF players. And adding Flesh Reaver will hurt more than help.

So, here's come the meaning of my post : Why not splashing White (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=129324&postcount=807) beside Red ?! Fear of Wasteland ? But LD strategies are quite obsolete with all those fast combo decks, and could be put aside @Colombus...

Jotun Grunt >> Flesh Reaver and SB options like StP >> Hulk (or Mystic Enforcer) beatdown.

Sure, Grunts + Leylines ain't sexy, but you can just switch them Game2-3 vs HF.

I'm not advocating a mix between RedDeath and Deadguy (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=129324) whose strategies are antinomic, but I wonder if the splash could be worth it.

From Bovinious last decklist, those changes could be made :
MD
-2 Flesh reaver
-1 Nantuko Shade
+3 Jotun Grunt
-1 Badland
-1 Swamp
+2 Scrubland

SB
-3 REB/Chain Lightning/etc.
+3 StP/Vindicate/Orim's Chant

Thoughts ?!

[nitewolf9]

Conversely to what some may believe, I think dropping the land d and adding more hand disruption (cabal therapy) strengthens your thresh/fish variant matchups. Threshold has a curve that tops out at 2 (save for enforcer) and can recover from wasteland and sinkhole well. Sure you can randomly mana screw them, but overloading their hand with tons of discard seems really effective. Therapy is very strong and with dystopia post board the way should be clear for your flesh reavers to end the game. Non-red splashing fish/thresh decks have no reach and relatively few creatures so reaver shines. Grunt is inferior to reaver in the hf matchup for the most part so I'm not sure the splash is worth it.

[Holo_rip]

Hello folks!

In my opinion, a 3CC Red Death isn't gonna work. Red Death tend to kill the opponent as quick as possible. Haveing 3 color mean that you rely on your land for each kind of situation (or on your fletch, same thing though).

Moreover, what are the advantage to get white in this deck ? Jottun, even if he is a great guys, haven't is place here. You already have Leyline to detroy graveyard dependence. In addition, you have to pay his cumulative upkeep, and you'll find it sometime very difficult to make him stay in play more than two turn (with Leyline on the board). That's why (again, in my opinion), Flesh reaver >> Jottun.

Vindicate ? Come on, it cost 3, with black and white mana, it is a sorcery. You use it (if you get some acceleration) on turn two, or later. It maybe can help you against some sort of creature or others thing, but chain lightening can too.

STP ? This is the only real reason why you would splash white. Versatil, 1cc, instant, the best (or at least one of the best) creature removal of the game.

Orim chant ? So, against deck like Hulk Flash, you have to win the dice roll, in order to get mana to cast it. Assuming you won it 50% of the time, for me it is more a dead card than another thing (moreover, it is in your SB).

Again, i don't think that Red Death could support another color, making depending on his land, and on particular card to win certain matchup.
Personnally, i prefer to go to a GP with a versatile deck, than with a deck build to beat some particular combo deck.

Holo.

[Lemuria]

If you guys are so worried about Hulk, why not maindeck Leyline in chain's spot instead of SB? Your chances of winning first game increases and I find that's huge.

"Are you crazy? what happens if we face goblins or some aggro?"

Then I ask....Isn't Hulk Flash the principle issue here? Don't you think that Hulk Flash is gonna be the most popular deck in GPs? Do you really think you can beat hulk flash on game 1 with just some discards, as they can cast lim-dul's vault, brainstorm and "hello, I'm alive again"?

So, the meta has changed. Instead of dealing with first turn Lackey, you must deal with Hulk Flash. You can still easilly deal with Lackey yet, but Hulk Flash becomes more and more of an issue, so, why not deal with them just now, instead of loosing game one to deal with them on game 2 and 3?

"Aaaaaahh, but you are changing the deck's philosophy...that's not the way Red Death plays"

Ok, so board in sinkholes again and good luck with that.

[Happy Gilmore]

Its time to settle this once and for all...the Kiki version CANNOT in any way go off with a Seal of Fire in play. This is how it works...

Flash-> Hulk

Getting Body snatcher, Carrion Feeder, Bodyguard

reanimate Hulk, sac getting Karmic guide

Reanimate Hulk, sac getting kiki

NOW PAY ATTENTION TO THIS PART**

In order for the combo to work kiki must be sacked in response to its own activated ability (Priority is not yet passed!). This means that when kiki's copy ability is on the stack Kiki is in the gy. If you then respond at this point by targeting Karmic Guide with Seal of Fire the copy ability will either fizzle when the Guide is given pro-red or the Guide will die and the ability will fizzle anyway. All they have left is a Karmic Guide and a 5/5 Feeder.

[Hanni]

In order for the combo to work kiki must be sacked in response to its own activated ability (Priority is not yet passed!). This means that when kiki's copy ability is on the stack Kiki is in the gy. If you then respond at this point by targeting Karmic Guide with Seal of Fire the copy ability will either fizzle when the Guide is given pro-red or the Guide will die and the ability will fizzle anyway. All they have left is a Karmic Guide and a 5/5 Feeder.

Won't they still get the Karmic Guide trigger? If they don't give pro red, it dies, but it's ability still triggers and they can reanimate Hulk to have a 6/6 Hulk and a 5/5 Feeder, or am I missing something?

[Lemuria]

Flash=> Hulk:

Sac Hulk, go get Karmic and carrion feeder.
In response to the Karmic trigger, kill the damn carrion feeder, and by doing that, stop the engine. They'll still have a 6/6 monster, but is that worse then a billion copies of Karmic?

Anyway, I still in favor of Leyline maindeck if you want to stop the combo at all. Even if they chain away, you can still buy some time to disrupt them.

[Firebrothers]

Flash=> Hulk:

Sac Hulk, go get Karmic and carrion feeder.
In response to the Karmic trigger, kill the damn carrion feeder, and by doing that, stop the engine. They'll still have a 6/6 monster, but is that worse then a billion copies of Karmic?

Anyway, I still in favor of Leyline maindeck if you want to stop the combo at all. Even if they chain away, you can still buy some time to disrupt them.

Yeah I have been testing leyline maindeck and it is pretty good to have a fighting chance first game. I think it will have a great impact against flash another popular deck that can beat flash, threshold.

I went 8-2 vs jack flash yesterday preboard, alternating who goes first. Today I will test X/X flash and jack flash again against different opponents and tweaked list and fill you in on how I did.

[Happy Gilmore]

Won't they still get the Karmic Guide trigger? If they don't give pro red, it dies, but it's ability still triggers and they can reanimate Hulk to have a 6/6 Hulk and a 5/5 Feeder, or am I missing something?


The reanimate ability never happens because the copy ability by kiki-jiki never resolves. Knowing when to kill the guide is important, it has to be done after its original reanimate trigger already resolves (which is used to get back Hulk in the second cycle). This is the position on the board

you:
Seal of Fire

them:
Kiki-jiki, Karmic Guide, a 3/3 or 4/4 feeder (not sure), and a bodyguard.

They activate kiki and sac it immediately before passing priority (otherwise the copy of karmic guide is useless, only able to reanimate Hulk). You target Karmic Guide in response to Kiki's trigger on the stack. They then either sac guide or give it pro red. Either way the copy ability of Kiki never resolves and nothing else is reanimated.

Seal of fire is also very good against Fish when played turn 1, they either have to counter it or accept the fact that the first MMage is going to die imediately. Medding Mage is a dead card in hand with Seal of Fire on the board.

[Eldariel]

The reanimate ability never happens because the copy ability by kiki-jiki never resolves. Knowing when to kill the guide is important, it has to be done after its original reanimate trigger already resolves (which is used to get back Hulk in the second cycle). This is the position on the board

you:
Seal of Fire

them:
Kiki-jiki, Karmic Guide, a 3/3 or 4/4 feeder (not sure), and a bodyguard.

They activate kiki and sac it immediately before passing priority (otherwise the copy of karmic guide is useless, only able to reanimate Hulk). You target Karmic Guide in response to Kiki's trigger on the stack. They then either sac guide or give it pro red. Either way the copy ability of Kiki never resolves and nothing else is reanimated.

Seal of fire is also very good against Fish when played turn 1, they either have to counter it or accept the fact that the first MMage is going to die imediately. Medding Mage is a dead card in hand with Seal of Fire on the board.

Umm, actually, they can have the Karmic Guide-copy come into play and respond to the CiPT-trigger with the sacrifice instead of responding to Kiki's ability, getting Kiki or Guide back with the copy. You do stall them by a turn, but you can't exactly f* them up with Seal (if you wait to respond to the Kiki-sac, they'll be able to go off with the copy reanimating Kiki and copying the copy, not the original Guide, so you got to respond to the Kiki's ability, in which case they'll be left with their whole board -Guard. Still not bad, but they're in position to go off next turn).

[Happy Gilmore]

Umm, actually, they can have the Karmic Guide-copy come into play and respond to the CiPT-trigger, getting either of them back in any case.

Palm face......for the love of god...there are no triggers on the stack! They never resolve. You can reanimate nothing because there are no Karmic Guide triggers!

This situation I described:

Kiki, Guide, Feeder, and Bodyguard (WITH NO SPELLS OR ABILITIES ON THE STACK) is reached by the combo every time. It is at this point, when they start going infinite that they can be easily stoped with one red removal spell. Kiki will never be able to copy anything, he will go to the GY when saced to the feeder. Which leaves only two cards in play (if they sac bodyguard) Guide and Feeder, thats it.

[CalebD]

What he was saying is that they don't have to sack the kiki in response to their own targeting, they can wait for the token to come into play and respond to its triggered ability.

So the seal would leave them with a tapped kiki-jiki, a karmic guide, and a carrion feeder in play. With Karmic Guide's echo trigger on the stack on their next turn they can go off again, unless you managed to obtain another removal spell/killed them. This isn't crazy talk, but the point remains that seal doesn't end the combo, just stalls it.

[JimmyC27]

Does this SB need Chalice going into Columbus? What do you move MB / take out if it does?

4 Dystopia
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle

[Firebrothers]

The list I have been testing includes these changes of the origional Main deck list...

-4 sinkhole
-4 Wasteland
-1 Anurid
-1 Badlands
-3 Chain Lightning

+4 Leyline of the Void
+4 Chrome Mox
+3 Unmask
+2 Cabal Therapy

This gives it a strong game against any combo deck including flash. It drops some burn and the land destruction for more speed with chrome mox and unmask. Although card disadvantage could be a problem, the efficiant beaters are still there like shade and negator.

[Happy Gilmore]

If I play Red Death this will most likely be the list:

4 Dark Confidant (I hate Bob because he is bad against agro, but Its needed in Flash.format)
4 Hypnotic Spectre
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade


4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 REB (Yes, I'm dead Serious)

4 Dark Ritual
4 Badlands
4 Delta
4 Mire
8 Swamp

SB:
4 Layline
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Jitte

REB seems much less narrow than Layline in the main. And for those who argue that Flash can simply go off turn 1-2 with counter backup, sure I guess I lose then, but I refuse to Maindeck Layline of the Void when there are better options for a GP metagame that is still not defined.

I'm going to get some testing in on Thus so I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Umm, actually, they can have the Karmic Guide-copy come into play and respond to the CiPT-trigger with the sacrifice instead of responding to Kiki's ability, getting Kiki or Guide back with the copy. You do stall them by a turn, but you can't exactly f* them up with Seal (if you wait to respond to the Kiki-sac, they'll be able to go off with the copy reanimating Kiki and copying the copy, not the original Guide, so you got to respond to the Kiki's ability, in which case they'll be left with their whole board -Guard. Still not bad, but they're in position to go off next turn).


What he was saying is that they don't have to sack the kiki in response to their own targeting, they can wait for the token to come into play and respond to its triggered ability.

So the seal would leave them with a tapped kiki-jiki, a karmic guide, and a carrion feeder in play. With Karmic Guide's echo trigger on the stack on their next turn they can go off again, unless you managed to obtain another removal spell/killed them. This isn't crazy talk, but the point remains that seal doesn't end the combo, just stalls it.
Karmic Guide's trigger has a target, which you have to announce when it goes on the stack. Therefore, it cannot bring back a Kiki Jiki that is not in the graveyard when the Guide comes into play.

The best way for Kiki Flash to play around red removal is for them to get Feeder, Bodyguard, Guide, and Kiki in play at some point, and then wait until the opponent's end step to target Guide with Kiki, without sacrificing anything. This will create a Guide token that in turn brings back the Protean Hulk.

When the Flash player's upkeep rolls around, the echo triggers of both the Guide and the Guide copy go on the stack, at which point he or she will respond by activating and sacrificing Kiki Jiki (targeting a Guide). If an attempt is made to kill the targeted Guide, the Flash player can respond by sacrificing the Protean Hulk, searching up the second Body Snatcher, sacrificing the Body Snatcher to return Kiki Jiki to play, and going off again.

So, assuming they don't play into it, a single burn spell will buy a turn.

Two burn spells will stop the combo, but the Flash player will still have a 9/9 Carrion Feeder and a Benevolent Bodyguard in play.

[Firebrothers]

If I play Red Death this will most likely be the list:

4 Dark Confidant (I hate Bob because he is bad against agro, but Its needed in Flash.format)
4 Hypnotic Spectre
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade


4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 REB (Yes, I'm dead Serious)

4 Dark Ritual
4 Badlands
4 Delta
4 Mire
8 Swamp

SB:
4 Layline
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Jitte

REB seems much less narrow than Layline in the main. And for those who argue that Flash can simply go off turn 1-2 with counter backup, sure I guess I lose then, but I refuse to Maindeck Layline of the Void when there are better options for a GP metagame that is still not defined.

I'm going to get some testing in on Thus so I'll let you guys know how it goes.

How do you define Leyline as narrow? It helps beat the oviously most popular deck and a weak matchup that should show up in force at the GP - threshold. As well as random other decks that may be there like reanimator, ichorid, loam, psycatog,. It has good synergy with negator and can come online first turn for free.

It greatly helps the first game so we have a greater chance of just going broke game 2 or 3 to win the match.

[beezy]

This is what I played at a recent Legacy tournament and got 3rd in, mainly playing vs Fish and Hulk Flash.
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
4x Badlands
10x Swamp

4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Umejawa's Jitte

4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Rotting Giant
3x Dark Confidant
1x Wretched Anurid

SB
4x Dystopia
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
1x Dark Confidant
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Umejawa's Jitte


I was trying to think of a good red card for SB or MD but against Fish and Hulk Flash I couldn't think of any.
From testing on MWS and in person I have gone 14-2 vs Hulk Flash (Mainly vs Disciple builds, but also a few vs the Kikki version) in matches, and the games I lose are when they have first turn win. And Fish has been generally a positive matchup thanks to Dystopia.

[Happy Gilmore]

I was trying to think of a good red card for SB or MD but against Fish and Hulk Flash I couldn't think of any.
From testing on MWS and in person I have gone 14-2 vs Hulk Flash (Mainly vs Disciple builds, but also a few vs the Kikki version) in matches, and the games I lose are when they have first turn win. And Fish has been generally a positive matchup thanks to Dystopia.

Umm....REB?

[AnwarA101]

This is what I played at a recent Legacy tournament and got 3rd in, mainly playing vs Fish and Hulk Flash.
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
4x Badlands
10x Swamp

4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Umejawa's Jitte

4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Rotting Giant
3x Dark Confidant
1x Wretched Anurid

SB
4x Dystopia
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
1x Dark Confidant
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Umejawa's Jitte


I was trying to think of a good red card for SB or MD but against Fish and Hulk Flash I couldn't think of any.
From testing on MWS and in person I have gone 14-2 vs Hulk Flash (Mainly vs Disciple builds, but also a few vs the Kikki version) in matches, and the games I lose are when they have first turn win. And Fish has been generally a positive matchup thanks to Dystopia.

I played virtually the same deck last night vs. Flash and I went 1-10 in games and I believe Nitewolf9 went something like 2-6 but his list wasn't running Confidant. I just don't see how Red Death is good against Flash. I mean they can hide their spells with Brainstorm, Lim-Dul's Vault, or even Mystical Tutor. Then you just lose once you miss disruption for a turn or two.

I'm convinced Red Death does not compete with Flash, but perhaps you can provide me some insight into the matchup that I'm some how missing.

[nitewolf9]

I'm shelving red death until the storm is over. You're either a tornado or a trailer park...I know what side of the devastation I'm going to be on.

[blackguard90]

I played virtually the same deck last night vs. Flash and I went 1-10 in games and I believe Nitewolf9 went something like 2-6 but his list wasn't running Confidant. I just don't see how Red Death is good against Flash. I mean they can hide their spells with Brainstorm, Lim-Dul's Vault, or even Mystical Tutor. Then you just lose once you miss disruption for a turn or two.

I'm convinced Red Death does not compete with Flash, but perhaps you can provide me some insight into the matchup that I'm some how missing.

the matchup isn't a good one, but very winnable. Your getting unlucky I think, because they don't always have a good hand. Against flash, it is essential to only keep hands with disruption. ALso, how are you losing that bad with leylines post board or MD?

[Tacosnape]

I don't care if you're running Red Death or Sui Black or Paint it Black, if you want a Flash game, you better be maindecking Ritual, Mox, Duress, Therapy, Hymn, and Leyline. All six. Any less isn't enough. Swamp-Duress often winds up still losing the next turn.

And isn't that kind of just the pinnacle of brokenness, when Swamp-Duress isn't an effective play against a combo deck?

[PhanTom_lt]

During testing, i found one big disadvantage of Seal of Fire. It is the only enchantment in the MUs against *****, Rg Sligh, and therefore, it pumps their Tarmogoyf. And even w/o Seal, the 'goyf is hard to handle, i mean, it's generally bigger than The Alien himself.

[Nihil Credo]

1) I wouldn't worry about 'Goyf for the GP
2) After the GP, 'Goyf is still a problem that will warrant some changes even without Seal of Fire thrown in.

[blackguard90]

1) I wouldn't worry about 'Goyf for the GP
2) After the GP, 'Goyf is still a problem that will warrant some changes even without Seal of Fire thrown in.

yeah man, hate that card to death. Goyf is such a beast against this deck. I suggest main deck diabolic edict. Dunno if its great in this kind of deck, especially since there is going to be 20 dedicated flash hate slots maindeck. You still don't always lose the game with a goyf in play, but expect to trade 2 for 1. Also, dystopia is such a wonderful crappy rare that it kills all their creatures dead. I guess post board thresh match is a lot better.

[georgjorge]

I've been getting good results so far with "Green Death", losing the red and playing four Goyf myself as well as three Rancor (with Edicts as removal). The loss of burn hurts, but getting a 3/4 or 4/5 beater for two helps this deck A LOT.

Further, I have a question for the more experienced players regarding first-turn-Negator: On the first turn of the first game, is it worth the risk to ritual into Negator (with no other good uses for Ritual) ? What if your hand is, say, three lands, Hymn, Negator, Ritual, Edict - Hymn or Negator against an unknown deck ?

[Nihil Credo]

Do you have a list of Green Death? The idea is pretty thrilling. Rancored Shade = awesome.
Does it run Confidant? I suppose so, since without burn it will need the extra gas. Also, if you can support Tarmogoyf, then probably Ghastly Demise > Edicts.

Regarding the 1st-turn play, I almost always go for Turn 1 Negator if I can. There isn't that much burn in the format, so unless I'm on the draw and see a Mountain, it's definitely worth it. With the hand you provided, then it would be insane not to go T1 Negator, T2 Hymn. It's one of the strongest openings this deck can have, and even if they Bolt the Negator you still have two lands to play your Hymns and Edicts.

[kicks_422]

Green Death also opens the SB to Deed and probably Krosan Grips. I like the idea of Tarmogoyfs coming in for I assume Rotting Giants, and muscle coming in for burn.

[georgjorge]

I'm playing this list now, but trying things out and changing it around constantly...some points:

No Shades - they seem worse than Rotting Giants to me, insofar as this deck has some problems against Goblins and decks packing burn, and Shade doesn't help here. I also see myself using up my mana for the first four or five turns in a game, with little to spare for Shade. So, Shade got kicked out for Goyf.

Confidant/Specter - Specter would be better (evasive / disrupting), but I don't like him very much: if Ritualed out, he often just dies to Bolt/Swords, while without Ritual he's too expensive. Confidant is better insofar as I can Ritual him AND Duress, or play Hymn second turn and then Confidant.

Sarcomancy - they have been doing a lot of damage to the opponent so far, as well as blocking first-turn Goblins. I often see a Ritual and two-mana-spell in my hand, and dropping an additional 2/2 on the first turn makes for good beats. Also synergetic with Negator...these should be tried out.

Dystopia - we all know how good it is, so I hope they don't interfere too much with the Goyfs. So far, they haven't, as you can often either drop the Dystopia before the Goyf, or drop it only when the opponent has three or more green/white permanents, so you still come out on top. Rancor helps, obviously.


7 Fetchlands
5 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Ritual

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sarcomancy
3 Negator
3 Confidant
3 Giant
2 Specter (fillers for more disruption)
2 Rancor

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
3 Diabolic Edict



4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dystopia
3 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spreading Algae / Compost (testing it)


Comments appreciated...

[Galroth]

I've examined the idea of green death before Tarmogoyf was around. I highly recommend running 4x Rancor and 3-4x Flesh Reaver. The drawback of Fleshreaver is mitigated by Rancor. In most cases he is better than Giant or Shade for your 2 drop. Plus Giant and Tarmogoyf don't really synergize. You might also consider Berserk. That was the other real impetus for considering green death prior to Tarmogoyf.

Edit: Green also opens up a number of sideboard options that previously Red Death didn't have (efficient) access to. Naturalize and Pernicious Deed are the first two that come to mind.

[eternaldarkness]

Red Death but with Green?? Now that's a new one. The lack of burn could really hate your reach elements.

Tarmogoyf and Rancor are nice additions though. I disagree with Fleshreaver. Its still a bad card, IMO, in this deck because of the lifeloss. Against fish or goblins, fleshreaver could lose you the race.

If your going green you could replace the giants with goy'f and the burn with rancor. You drop the burn for a more powerful creature base and a pseudo-burn spell that recurs (rancor). And also better sideboard options. Hows has this been working for you?

[Galroth]

I think in the green version (still not sure if this is an appropriate place to discuss this... oh well) Berserk is a must. Between Rancor and Berserk (and Fleshreaver) you have a ridiculous clock capable of plays so much more broken that red death.

There was a debate sometime back about Fleshreaver in red death. People eventually opted for giant primarily because Fleshreaver can be chump blocked. In green death this doesn't matter because (if you're me) you replace your 7 burn spells with Rancors and Berserks. If they want to chump block with trample I'm all for soaking up those extra couple of points of life loss. If they're trying to race you (like they should) it's fairly unlikely they'll beat you to the punch. A well timed berserk on Negator or Reaver is too big a hit to try to race.

Ultimately I rejected green death even though its clock is slightly quicker. It doesn't shore-up the weaknesses of the deck. What do you do when they have sufficient removal, or board position to counter your creatures. The lack of reach for those last few points of damage does matter. In addition, the reach allows you to take care of any pesky creatures they're keeping from combat.

I do think Dark Confidant is the right choice in green death though. Foregoing reach you need to draw into more threats. He was rejected in red death primarily because his tempo is too slow. Fleshreaver, Tarmogoyf, Rancor, and Berserk make up for this shortcoming.

Green death probably deserves a second look.

[Finn]

Sarcomancy and Tarmogoyf really aren't going to be synergistic by themselves. Now you will just REALLY wish you could be rid of it.

[georgjorge]

Ultimately I rejected green death even though its clock is slightly quicker. It doesn't shore-up the weaknesses of the deck. What do you do when they have sufficient removal, or board position to counter your creatures. The lack of reach for those last few points of damage does matter. In addition, the reach allows you to take care of any pesky creatures they're keeping from combat.

I think that depends on your strategy - if you play Berserk and Rancor, then you can't really afford to lose some creatures. As I see the strategy of "XXX Death", it's all about disruption while not losing card advantage - Hymn is two-for-one, destroying lands keeps them from playing spells in their hand, and so on. So, the creature base in my Green Death version is not there to kill as fast as possible, it is meant to provide a steady flow of threats which eventually overcome my opponent's own threats or answers. So, I don't care if the first two creatures get removed, because there WILL be another one soon.

Although, Flesh Reaver + Berserk IS a lot of damage to the opponent - but how does it help you win races, considering you take just as much ? It reminds me of Hatred, but cheaper...hmmm....maybe play it as pure suicide without the Sinkholes and Specters/Confidants...

[264505]

This version may be a little greedy, but its an idea...
// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Badlands
3 [UG] Swamp
3 [B] Bayou
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [9E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [FS] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [US] Dark Ritual
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [US] Duress
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
3 [UL] Rancor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I liked the red for the bolts, but i also love goyf in the deck. What do you guys think?

[Galroth]

Although, Flesh Reaver + Berserk IS a lot of damage to the opponent - but how does it help you win races, considering you take just as much ?
It is possible to race them because Flesh Reaver's ability triggers after you've dealt the damage and conceivably killed your opponent. An 8 point swing can easily end a game (even if their hoard and your own Flesh Reaver have managed to bring your life total down below 8). Keep in mind this if they are trying to race you. There are (sadly) fewer and fewer decks capable of trying even that much. God forbid you have double Berserk or a Rancor already on Flesh Reaver :).

[eternaldarkness]

I'm really not that sold on Flesh Reaver+Rancor. If a trampling 6/4 horror is attacking me, then I will most certainly not chumpblock unless I could kill it. I would just amass more creatures to race the guy. Shouldn't be too hard since Flesh Reaver is also dealing 6 to its controller.

I tried the green death build. Wasn't worth it. Your only real gain was Tarmogoyf. Rancor and Berserk were subpar burn at best. I really prefer having the reach elements and the ability to just point at say meddling mage or Serra Avenger and say "your dead".

I think in the current meta, Red Death should make use of more hand disruption as opposed to LD. LD doesn't do squat against Flash as all they need is 2 mana and they can also just cast Flash in response to turn 2 Sinkhole. Unmask has better capabilities of disrupting a Flash player by taking out Flash, Hulk, Tutors or Countermagic. Plus, its much faster than Sinkhole.

I think a disruption base should look like this:

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Unmask
4 Hypnotic Specter

Basically a port from Bill Starks top 4 MBA. We could also for the time being, replace the giants with pump knights as they are certainly much better in the current field. It will basically be similar to Stark's list but with added burn in the form of Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning.

Thoughts?

[Galroth]

It's the large swing in life totals that make Flesh Reaver shine imo.

To reiterate my opinion of Green Death: I think it is sub-par to Red Death. That reach is quite important. Rancor and Berserk, though capable of some ridiculous stuff, just aren't as good in general as direct damage. Still fun to explore what could be with Green Death. I really wonder how adding pernicious deeds might change the way the deck plays.

In the current meta, I think you're going in the right direction. More disruption elements are necesarry and less focus on the ground war. I'm of the opinion the land destruction is the less important of your disruption elements, so the list looks good.

[blackguard90]

It's the large swing in life totals that make Flesh Reaver shine imo.

To reiterate my opinion of Green Death: I think it is sub-par to Red Death. That reach is quite important. Rancor and Berserk, though capable of some ridiculous stuff, just aren't as good in general as direct damage. Still fun to explore what could be with Green Death. I really wonder how adding pernicious deeds might change the way the deck plays.

In the current meta, I think you're going in the right direction. More disruption elements are necesarry and less focus on the ground war. I'm of the opinion the land destruction is the less important of your disruption elements, so the list looks good.

I second this. Green death lacks important removal also. Deed sucks, because it kills almost all of your guys. You can play putrefy, but its 3 mana and requires 2 colors. Vendetta sucks against kiki flash and just about any black deck, and diabolic sucks against kiki flash, and goblins etc.


Edit: Instead of unmask, why not run cabal therapy? I loved therapy a lot more than unmask, because I never really want to pitch a threat for a duress.

[blackguard90]

alright... With flash banned, B/R suicide is free! Now, the deck can focus on other match-ups! WOOT!!!! So the questions are:

Can/should land destruction stay in the deck?
Should the original 7 pieces of burn stay?
What are some options to improve the deck?
Will replenish or mind over matter affect anything?

[georgjorge]

For me, there are two points to think about at the moment:

Chrome Mox or Ritual ? Ritual is faster, but I've had quite some hands with Ritual and one mana, allowing for a fast start but nothing to follow it up with. Replacing some lands and Rituals with Moxes has been good so far for me.

Blackmail - I am playing two right now, and I love it. In a deck with Hymn and Duress, if you play Blackmail on the second or third turn, there won't be more than three cards in your opponents hand. If you decide to cut the Sinkholes (I thought about it, but keep them), Blackmail would be a likely candidate to make up for the loss of disruption.

[dre4m]

Chrome Mox or Ritual ? Ritual is faster, but I've had quite some hands with Ritual and one mana, allowing for a fast start but nothing to follow it up with. Replacing some lands and Rituals with Moxes has been good so far for me.

It would probably be better not to have the card disadvantage and play more lands, as the one tempo boost isn't worth the business card you'll have to pitch.


Blackmail - I am playing two right now, and I love it. In a deck with Hymn and Duress, if you play Blackmail on the second or third turn, there won't be more than three cards in your opponents hand. If you decide to cut the Sinkholes (I thought about it, but keep them), Blackmail would be a likely candidate to make up for the loss of disruption.


Cabal Therapy, if you're not playing it, is just better, and so, probably, is Extirpate.

[uryel]

Hello i just built this version of red death, i'd like to know your opinion and changes to do in it.

4xduress
4xhymn to tourach
3xextirpate

4xchain lighting
4xlighting bolt

4xnight's whisper

4xhypnotic specter
4xtombstalker
3xcarnophage
4xphyrexian totem

4xdark ritual
6xswamp
4xbadland
4xpolluted delta
4xBloodstained Mire


side:
4xplanar void
4xrack and ruin
3xjitte
4xEngineered Plague

[blackguard90]

Hello i just built this version of red death, i'd like to know your opinion and changes to do in it.

4xduress
4xhymn to tourach
3xextirpate

4xchain lighting
4xlighting bolt

4xnight's whisper

4xhypnotic specter
4xtombstalker
3xcarnophage
4xphyrexian totem

4xdark ritual
6xswamp
4xbadland
4xpolluted delta
4xBloodstained Mire


side:
4xplanar void
4xrack and ruin
3xjitte
4xEngineered Plague


well, why maindeck extirpate?

1) Your manabase is a little skimpy. Phyrexian totem adds to it, but you need 3 mana to get it out, 3 to activate etc. Usually, red death plays 4 rituals and 20 lands, 21 if you are packing 4 wastelands.
2) Ughh.... Seeing how you have badlands and fetches, I don't think you are poor, so why play phyrexian totem? Totem is for decks like pox, not for a beat down deck like Red Death. There are many many reasons why totem sucks in this deck: You basically cut 2 lands for 4 totems, which hogs your mana like crap. 3 mana to get out in a 18 land deck ISN'T easy. I don't care if you are playing rit, you won't get them every game. Why the hell won't you play the real thing in this deck? Phyrexian negator is absolutely nuts against almost every single deck in the format, even burn (most burn is instant speed anyways)! (You slow roll them). I always see players that are scared of playing them because they fear that the opponent will block or burn them. There are a lot of shitheads saying that gators are crap against every deck except decks with no creatures or burn, but this is not the case. If you playtest them, you will find that they are the best creatures in the deck. You have 8 pieces of burn, which will definately clear the path for your gators, and you can even burn it yourself after damage and sac 3 instead of maybe 6.
3) Tombstalker is very interesting, but I highly doubt that you can ever play it 2nd turn unless you get something like ritual, 2 sac lands and like a duress. I would play shade or rotting giant over it.
4) Night's whisper is loss of tempo for any aggro/aggro control deck. Card draw is good, but not being able to play something else like discard is really bad. Play confidant or something if you are seeking burn. As for sideboard, why rack and ruin? Are there a lot of artifact decks around?

[bondafong]

Hello i just built this version of red death, i'd like to know your opinion and changes to do in it.

4xduress
4xhymn to tourach
3xextirpate

4xchain lighting
4xlighting bolt

4xnight's whisper

4xhypnotic specter
4xtombstalker
3xcarnophage
4xphyrexian totem

4xdark ritual
6xswamp
4xbadland
4xpolluted delta
4xBloodstained Mire


side:
4xplanar void
4xrack and ruin
3xjitte
4xEngineered Plague

There's a lot of things in this deck that doesn't make sense.
First of all: As flash are banned -> remove extirpate
Out: 4 Phyrexian totetems, In: 4 Negator

And 18 lands is a bit on the low side if you want to run 4 tombstalker.
My personal opinion is further more that the tombstalkers just don't fit this deck.
Red Death is all about disruption combined with a fast clock. How does tombstalker help this game plan? Not at all actually.
Sorry to say so, but this decks synergy seems bad, and in my eyes it looks like a failed attempt to make the deck something it shouldn't be.

[264505]

So im guessing that with the elimination of flash, the pump knights are out of the deck. Whould there be any reason to keep them above the giants? If fish decks decide to show up it dodges their removal (cept jitte), kills mages and blocks grunts all day long.

[blackguard90]

So im guessing that with the elimination of flash, the pump knights are out of the deck. Whould there be any reason to keep them above the giants? If fish decks decide to show up it dodges their removal (cept jitte), kills mages and blocks grunts all day long.

well, pump knights sucks now because flash isn't in this format, so fish will decrease and goblins will increase. Every piece of removal in goblin deck kills it. Also, the pump knights hog up too much mana. And the 1 toughness is a big problem also...

[uryel]

well today i played this deck in my little metagame... 22ppl some ugr ***** a couple of flash, madness, land still , no solidarity neither TES this time.

actually i never had problem whit in mana screw, so globally mana is quite fixed also whit the great help of phirexian totems
the extirpate worked good but nothing exceptional, done mainly @ first turn on fech or wasteland, or Fow.

night's wispers went bad... i didnt liked them so next time i'll put dark confidant.

carnophage were good.

tombstalkers.... worked over the top.... dropped them alwais in turn 3-4 (one at least), my phylosophy were to use them instead of negators, this is also why i used phyrexian totems (that i always Activated just to kill the opponents) . tombstalkers were casted really easy whit the help of the duress, hymn to tourach, bolts fechs, dark ritual played in the firsts turns to destroy opponents hand or kill firsts bad opponent's creatures....

actually i'm planning to make this changes:
-4 night's whisper
+4 dark confidant
-3 extirpate
-4 totems
+4 negators
+3 swamp

the side is all to been replanned

[Nydaeli]

Tombstalker + Confidant + no deck manipulation WILL kill you. You have three options: a) cut the Confidants, b) cut the Stalkers, or c) add in something like Sensei's Divining Top. I'd recommend a).

[Eldariel]

Tombstalker + Confidant + no deck manipulation WILL kill you. You have three options: a) cut the Confidants, b) cut the Stalkers, or c) add in something like Sensei's Divining Top. I'd recommend a).

Actually, you can just work with it. The Stalker is only a 3- or a 4-of so you can afford risking revealing one with Confidant, it won't happen all that often. You'll also win many of the games in which you do reveal one since that means you've still got an active Confidant and a 5/5 flyer. The bigger question is, whether both are so good that you insist on running them together. That was the case between Hit//Run and Confidant in Standard, and Force of Will, Darksteel Colossus and Confidant in Legacy/Vintage, but is Tombstalker really worth it? What about Confidant, a card often scoffed at in this thread?

[Tacosnape]

I don't like Tombstalker in any number over 2. Drawing two always, always, always, always sucks. But drawing one is incredi-zor.

[Hummingbird TG]

Tombstalker is okay. But what do you cut for it? Shade? Giant?

[uryel]

i think stalkers made a huge difference in the games maybe i try put

instead of
-4 night's whisper
+4 dark confidant
-3 extirpate
-4 totems
+4 negators
+3 swamp

this changes
-4 night's whisper
+4 dark confidant
-3 extirpate
+3 Sensei's Divining Top
-4 totems
-1 tombstalker
+3 negators
+2 swamp

actually i think a deck manipulation and draw is necessary that's why use confidants (@ least in my meta).

[georgjorge]

It would probably be better not to have the card disadvantage and play more lands, as the one tempo boost isn't worth the business card you'll have to pitch

Ok, so the theory behind the Mox is...it's worse when you have few spells and many lands, but better when you have one-land hands, which you'd have to mulligan most of the time otherwise. I think it may be worth it to play the Moxes, because their double role as acceleration and permanent mana source allows you to cut down on lands. Furthermore, a) in most matchups you have some cards that aren't so hot, like Sarcomancy against Thresh or Duress against Goblins, which you imprint, and b) the extra two mana from Ritual is not much better than the extra mana from Mox, because most of your spells cost two anyway.

Overall, I've had surprisingly many situations where I was glad the Mox wasn't a Ritual, because I would have had to mulligan my starting hand then due to a lack of permanent mana sources...


Cabal Therapy, if you're not playing it, is just better, and so, probably, is Extirpate.

Therapy and Extirpate are ONLY better in the combo matchup, where you want to nail specific cards - but I'm not really worried about that matchup. Against all other decks, I find Blackmail to be better, because unlike the other two, it almost always gets a relevant card from their hand, whereas Therapy and Extirpate end up having no real impact a lot of the time (for example, against Fish there are many cards you would want to get...Jitte, Swords, Daze, Grunt, Fetchlands and so on, but the chance that you will know in ADVANCE which of them is in their hand is not so big) . True, Therapy can always be flashbacked, but I find that this deck depends on a very delicate balance between disruption and creatures to beat your opponent while he is disrupted, and have found myself in few situations where I would want to have to sacrifice a creature to gain a hand disruption effect.

[feuerizer]

There haven´t been posts for a long time in this thread.

So what is actual state of Red Death??

Is any one testing new variants of the deck?

[Anarky87]

There haven´t been posts for a long time in this thread.

So what is actual state of Red Death??

Is any one testing new variants of the deck?

One variance I've been testing in MWS is taking the creature base and going:

-3 Giants
-1 Anurid

+4 Confidant

Yes, I know all the gripes about him, but seriously. If the deck's initial rush early game is stopped in the mid/late game, it falls on its face. I've seen this many times against decks like Thresh, Landstill, Fish, etc where they've survived the early game to come back and crush RD while it top decks shit like lands, Sinkholes, Rituals. Confidant gives the deck some much needed draw and hand replenishing. Shade, Negator, and Specter play your beats, and Confidant refuels you for later. So far I've been liking it quite abit and intend to test some more.

[feuerizer]

Yes, I know all the gripes about him, but seriously. If the deck's initial rush early game is stopped in the mid/late game, it falls on its face. I've seen this many times against decks like Thresh, Landstill, Fish, etc where they've survived the early game to come back and crush RD while it top decks shit like lands, Sinkholes, Rituals. Confidant gives the deck some much needed draw and hand replenishing. Shade, Negator, and Specter play your beats, and Confidant refuels you for later. So far I've been liking it quite abit and intend to test some more.

I have tested Confidant in the deck but removed him after some weeks.
The Giants are so strong in the early game because they break the normal power-cost-ratio.
I think there must be another way, at least I hope it.

You absolutely need your beaters as soon as possible. Dropping a confidant is like doing nothing for your attack.
As you wrote, he is pretty good for the midgame, but one doesnt want to draw him at the beginning of the match which is a factor that is uncontrollable.

[Anarky87]

I have tested Confidant in the deck but removed him after some weeks.
The Giants are so strong in the early game because they break the normal power-cost-ratio.
I think there must be another way, at least I hope it.

You absolutely need your beaters as soon as possible. Dropping a confidant is like doing nothing for your attack.
As you wrote, he is pretty good for the midgame, but one doesnt want to draw him at the beginning of the match which is a factor that is uncontrollable.

Actually, I do want to draw him at the beginning. I want to see him pretty much as soon as possible. Yes, the 3/3's make for a strong early game, but if you don't finish them with the early game, or they take you to the mid and late game, you're fucked. Their removal/creatures get better than yours. Confidant supplies a stream of card advantage that is undeniable.

The whole reason I put the deck down was because if it went into top deck mode, there was a good chance I wasn't gonna come out on top. I would then lose to random crap too, just because I kept drawing into more lands, useless Duresses and Hymns, Dark Rituals, etc., while they drew into gas. I believe he can solve a glaring part of the deck's design, which is blowing yourself out in the first couple turns and having nothing left if the game goes long.

I'm sure he weakens the Goblin match some, but I don't think by much, and your SB is pretty strong against them. I'm gonna continue to test him, as I believe this to be better than doing nothing with the deck. With the meta changing, I think this deck needs to be retuned and this is where I'm starting. And Confidant as proved himself in a large tournament setting in this deck. Just ask Sexy Rector.

[feuerizer]

The whole reason I put the deck down was because if it went into top deck mode, there was a good chance I wasn't gonna come out on top. I would then lose to random crap too, just because I kept drawing into more lands, useless Duresses and Hymns, Dark Rituals, etc., while they drew into gas. I believe he can solve a glaring part of the deck's design, which is blowing yourself out in the first couple turns and having nothing left if the game goes long.

In many games which I lost, the problem was simply the mix of cards!
If you draw only disruption or only creatures you are going to fail more often than winning.
The game plan is to disrupt and then to kill.

Only one side of the deck alone is not strong enough to stand the defense of your opponent.

The simple solution is library manipulation. Sounds pretty easy, but there is no place in this deck for such cards.
Confidant may do this job in another way. He is doing it for the cost of slowing you down.

Difficult, difficult...

[Tao]

-3 Giants
-1 Anurid
+4 Confidant


Withered Wretch is better than Dark Confidant:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=115126&postcount=400

Rakdos Guildmage is better than Dark Confidant:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=116690&postcount=437

It is discussed with a final result, Dark Condifdant does not belong in Red Death:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=116903&postcount=455

Even drawing a Burn spell from Dark Confidant won't deal any damage at all:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81539&postcount=64

[Firebrothers]

I have begun tinkering around with some number of dark confidants and chrome moxes.

Right now my deck has these changes

out
-3 chain lightning
-4 wasteland

in
+3 bob
+4 Chrome mox

I don't know the correct configuration but I think the confidant is needed because it improves the mid to late game and keeps giving you gas as long as it sticks around.

As for the mox I think they help speed up everything even at the cost of a threat or disruption, but then again bob puts more in your hand so the disadvantage is somewhat nullified.

[Phantom]

Well, I've never tested Confidant, so I can't completely write off his inclusion, but I'm fairly certain that Chain Lightning isn't the card to cut. I've always considered Red Death's 7 burn spells a huge plus.

Especially if you're cutting Wasteland, I would say cut Sinkhole for Confidant and test that (basically sacrificing Tempo boost for card advantage). Land Destruction is not nearly as useful as it was a year ago.

Also, more accel is interesting, but I think that Lotus Petal is superior to Chrome mox here (although I'm not sure).

[feuerizer]

Especially if you're cutting Wasteland, I would say cut Sinkhole for Confidant and test that (basically sacrificing Tempo boost for card advantage). Land Destruction is not nearly as useful as it was a year ago.

My experience with cutting the entire ld off the deck is horrible.
The disruption package becomes less effective. Wasteland hurts against a deck full of basics so I am playing 3 at the moment which gives your mana base much more stability.


I've always considered Red Death's 7 burn spells a huge plus.


I absolutely agree!

It is your only creature removal. I don´t see a reason not to play them. Indeed those spells are a certain characteristic of Red Death.


+4 Chrome mox

I am not a friend of chrome mox in Bw Confidant as well as in Red Death.
It is card disadvantage. Your speed is Ritual and Ritual is enough.
You can use mox in the midgame to recycle your dead draws (discard, sinkhole).
But is this enough to justify the disadvantage?

[Phantom]

Telling him what slots NOT to test Confidant in really doesn't help. If you don't think he should test Bob in either the Burn or Sinkhole slots, tell him where it should be tested and why. If you are simply saying that you like the current build better than any Confidant build, that is fine, but isn't really useful to someone who clearly wants to test the card in this deck.

[feuerizer]

Telling him what slots NOT to test Confidant in really doesn't help. If you don't think he should test Bob in either the Burn or Sinkhole slots, tell him where it should be tested and why. If you are simply saying that you like the current build better than any Confidant build, that is fine, but isn't really useful to someone who clearly wants to test the card in this deck.

It is not my intention to be negative or counter-productive.

The Confidant issue has been discussed for a long time and been dismissed.

In my opinion you have to put Confidant in the weakest spot in order to improve the deck. This spot is anurid. Well, Anurid is just one card.

Confidant is a card for a more controlish deck type. There is a deck for him and that is Deadguy Ale aka Bw Confidant.

[Firebrothers]

I also find myself boarding in jitte in just about every matchup and am thinking about including them in the main deck. Could the extra removal and versatility of 2-3 jitte main deck be enough to cut one chain lightning, sinkholes and wastelands for 4 chrome mox, 3 bob and 2 jitte.

A few times in my games I have opened first turn land, mox, dude, Second turn land, ritual, jitte, equip swing. That is pretty strong and I think it is about time red death sped up a little to keep up with the fast combo and fast aggro decks without completely losing to mid to late game decks.

[feuerizer]

Could the extra removal and versatility of 2-3 jitte main deck be enough to cut one chain lightning, sinkholes and wastelands for 4 chrome mox, 3 bob and 2 jitte.


The problem with Jitte as a removal is, that it needs to connect at least twice to kill a creature with toughness 3. Chain Lightning does kill directly.
The other thing is, Jitte is slow.

Otherwise in combination with Chrome Mox it speeds up.

Just try your version!
The extra speed may rescue the card disadvantage.

I am very interesting in hearing your results!

[Anarky87]

Withered Wretch is better than Dark Confidant:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=115126&postcount=400

Rakdos Guildmage is better than Dark Confidant:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=116690&postcount=437

It is discussed with a final result, Dark Condifdant does not belong in Red Death:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=116903&postcount=455

Even drawing a Burn spell from Dark Confidant won't deal any damage at all:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81539&postcount=64

As I've come to expect, that post was of no use. Like, at all. Only a few people saying why they wouldn't play Confidant. I'm not one of them and I think the deck needs tightened up so it can adapt in the new meta.


The Confidant issue has been discussed for a long time and been dismissed.Discussed, I would agree with. Dismissed, I don't entirely agree with. Sexy Rector played a version MDing Confidant to a first place win at trial side event and I'm willing to try this out because the deck needs some way to replenish its early rush.


In my opinion you have to put Confidant in the weakest spot in order to improve the deck. This spot is anurid. Well, Anurid is just one card.Ever since I've picked up the deck, I've never felt Anurid to be a weak spot. What I haven't been impressed with here recently is Hypnotic Specter. I love ritualing him out turn 1 and beating down while he disrupts, but casting him turn 3 is down right retarded. I like the Specter for what he does against Control and that he has evasion, but to me he has been the weakest among the creatures.


Confidant is a card for a more controlish deck type. There is a deck for him and that is Deadguy Ale aka Bw Confidant.Confidant fits right in with a deck that spends turns 1-4/5 playing disruption spells and fast beats. Ironically, that's what this deck is: Fast disruption and big beats to finish the game. When you've exhausted those resources, you'll want something to help you rebuild and keep the pressure up. I see Confidant fitting this bill.

I've played this deck for a long time and I contributed to this thread in the past. But when the deck started underperforming for me, I put it aside and pursued other decks. I've always seen people complaining about needing some manipulation and then immediately write off the dude who can help solve that. The only thing I can tell you is actually try him out in the deck for an extended period and then make your judgement from there. That's what I'm doing.

[Tao]

either you didnt read my links or your sarcasm detector needs to be repaired ... i like confiant!

i suggested him a hundred times and always got flamed

[feuerizer]

Ever since I've picked up the deck, I've never felt Anurid to be a weak spot. What I haven't been impressed with here recently is Hypnotic Specter. I love ritualing him out turn 1 and beating down while he disrupts, but casting him turn 3 is down right retarded. I like the Specter for what he does against Control and that he has evasion, but to me he has been the weakest among the creatures.


Your argument concerning playing Specter on turn 3 is right. In such a situation he is only good when you have intensively disrupted your opponent. So it is a winmore card.

Ok, lets give Confidant another try.

Maybe this configuration:

-1 Anurid
-2 Specter

+3 Confidant

What do You think??

[Galroth]

Your argument concerning playing Specter on turn 3 is right. In such a situation he is only good when you have intensively disrupted your opponent. So it is a winmore card.

I'm not sure I understand/agree with your logic here.

To my mind Hypnotic Specter, when played on turn 3, is best when you have NOT intensively disrupted your opponent. If you haven't disrupted your opponent they are likely maintaining a decent hand. When could you need Specter more? I don't believe Specter counts as a win-more card in this circumstance. That is not to say he isn't also good when they have 0 cards in hand and you're forcing your opponent to play his (or her...) draw every turn.

Red Death's strategy is disruption with fast efficient beats. Admittedly Specter is not the best of either world, but he combines the two better than any other card, imo. I highly recommend he stays, I'm quite frankly surprised this is even a consideration. If evidence is needed examine the creature base of every Red Death deck to t8. 12 creatures in every deck that has placed are the same; Specter is one of them. Don't let a streak of bad luck or unfortunate events convince you otherwise.

That said I'll refrain from discussing the real issue at hand; Confidant.

[feuerizer]

I'm not sure I understand/agree with your logic here.

I mean that a Specter on turn 3 is very often dead before it is even able to attack.
If the hand and land of your opponent got disrupted, Specter´s survival chance is higher. Thus he helps you to continue the disruption.

Otherwise you can play a Negator and use your disruption spells to protect him.

Don´t get me wrong, I like Specter, but when I have to choose between playing him and a bigger creature I normally choose the bigger one.

Do you think the standard list is the right one?

[thefreakaccident]

Hi, new to the discussion.... but I have been following for a couple of days now.

I used to pilot pikula every once and again, Confidant is a staple in that deck due to the fact that it needs to draw into more disruption to seal the game.

this deck does not, it disrupts the gamestate just enough to make your opponent unresponsive so you can kill them quickly with your awesome beatsticks.

Confidant is unnessessary in this deck!

he does not put preesures on the opponents board/life, which is what your creatures should be most worried about.

he does not help your bad MUs, and is a winmore against control (This is control's worst nightmare BTW). Confidant NEVER survives long enough to draw a single card against goblins (which is the most prominent deck in the format, just in case you did not know). I would run wretched anurid/giant instead, seeing as the other best creatures for the deck are already here (Negator, shade, hippie... yes he needs to stay).

[Galroth]

It's quite true that on turn 3 if you haven't already disrupted your opponent, then your Specter will not live to make use of his ability. I discounted this because the same would apply for Negator, Shade, etc.

I know this wasn't brought up, so it's not by any means meant to refute what you said; however, if I have my choice of a turn 3 creature to play, I would almost always toss out Specter first. If they have removal, better Specter takes it than Negator or Shade the next turn. If they don't, then Specter's disruption is generally better than having the extra few points of damage Negator or Shade may provide. Again these are generalizations, context would always determine my play. This doesn't address the issue of where or not Specter is better than other black creatures (I do think he is). Red Death requires disruption elements, there is not another creature out there that also provides the kind of disruption that Specter can.

Do I think the standard list is the right one... This should be fun to answer :)

I have a bias towards rogue decks. I love innovation and I like to see the use of large card pools to create metas with massive diversity. Basically this is the reason I choose to play legacy. While I do like innovation, I think Red Death's standard list is very close to optimal. The weakest creature spots are undeniably Giants/Annurids in my opinion. Could they be replaced with Confidant? Well, they have been and to a degree of success, but I imagine it depends on your meta. I'm in agreement with Anwar that Confidant is not a threat and he replaces tempo with card advantage. This is probably needed in a control/combo heavy field where you need constant disruption. It matters very little if your clock is a turn or 2 quicker because the really important point is to stall them. Confidant + Discard is simply better in that kind of environment. Against aggro... well the current list runs a couple of Jitte. I think that move probably isn't warranted unless you're constantly facing Gobbos and the like. In an aggro environment you need fat creatures and quicker tempo so that you're playing the beatdown. I think Confidant is the wrong choice here.

Like I mentioned earlier, Red Death really has two elements: Disruption and Efficient beats. Depending on the meta these elements need different balances. Confidant is not an efficient beat (though he may draw you into more). However, he does bring a constant stream of disruption to your opponenet.

My current expirementation with Red Death: I think Flesh Reaver warrants more consideration. He is a huge risk, but in my experience the risk is marginally better than worse. I think I'd cut the Jitte and sideboard it for Goblins, etc. I'd probably go to 3 Reaver and 3 Confidant. I don't really want to see 2 of either in my opening hand, and I've never been fully comfortable with just 16 creatures; 18 is more to my liking.

I must admit I haven't played Red Death in awhile. I've been toying primarily with a Sui-Black build that runs about 2/3rds of the same cards as Red Death. And I've been tinkering with ideas for Green Death, none of which have panned out yet. Green just provides some direction to the deck which Red is incapable of taking, while still maintaining a tempo near equal to Red Death. EDIT: Oh, and Discard... always playing Discard. No, it's good! Really!

[Anarky87]

either you didnt read my links or your sarcasm detector needs to be repaired ... i like confiant!

i suggested him a hundred times and always got flamed

Sorry, I was at work and they weren't working. I just assumed (wrongly) that they were something against Confidant. My apologies.



Confidant is unnessessary in this deck!I disagree with this. Confidant works in Deadguy because it allows them to continually put disruption pieces into their hand to compensate for the deck blowing itself out on resources early in the game. It plays Shade and it plays Specter, and it also plays a big beat stick in Grunt. Confidant is excellent here because after exploding with Duress, Hymn, Sinkhole, maybe Vindicate or a creature, you can throw down a Confidant and rebuild your hand and keep your tempo going while your opponent will most likely rely on the top of their deck. I fail to see how this use for Confidant can't be ported to RD.


he does not put preesures on the opponents board/life, which is what your creatures should be most worried about.In addition to Confidant, you also play 4 Negators, 4 Shades, 3 Giants, and an Anurid. Their either 5/5's, 3/3's, or have the ability to be ginormous. While you're beating face with Negator/Shade/Giant/etc Confidant can also be putting more creatures/disruption/removal into your hand in addition to attacking.


he does not help your bad MUsThat hasn't been determined because so far I've only heard conjecture. Yet someone who did try it in the deck did extremely well with it. What bad matchups are we talking about? Loam? Reanimtor? None of your other creatures helped there either.


and is a winmore against control (This is control's worst nightmare BTW).I can't see him being win more against Control. You put him down, he draws you cards, which is what you want against control. Everytime I've beaten Red Death with Landstill, was because I was able to stablize with a bomb, kill their board and leave them scrambling for answers off the top. Confidant helps this. I did it last night when I had 2 Confidants in play attacking. Even though he Deeded them away, they had put even more creatures in my hand, letting me seal the deal. So far he's been an all-star against control.


Confidant NEVER survives long enough to draw a single card against goblins (which is the most prominent deck in the format, just in case you did not know).Never? I mean, really? Never?! Every time you've played him they've had an answer or he's never survived an upkeep? Do you shuffle your opponents deck? I'm gonna have to disagree, because I've played games where he has survived and has drawn me cards. They have the potential to nuke him early, but not every single time. This is conjecture more than anything, and pretty poor at that. That's not a way to make an argument (in case you didn't know).


If evidence is needed examine the creature base of every Red Death deck to t8. 12 creatures in every deck that has placed are the same; Specter is one of them. Don't let a streak of bad luck or unfortunate events convince you otherwise.That doesn't mean the creature base can't be altered. To me, Specter seems to do the least amount of work for the deck. The deck has been described as disruption and fast/efficient beats. Specter is not fast unless he's powered out turn 1 or 2. While a turn 3 Specter gives the opponent enough time to handle him if needed. Especially, as you described, if you haven't significantly disrupted the opponent.

I don't know how to fit him in, but I haven't been missing Specter in testing.

[nitewolf9]

Hypnotic specter has been gold for me so many times. The evasion is priceless and his ability is devastating, and he also carries a jitte like a champ (post board). He is excellent against goblins where confidant just sits there and dies to fanatic/gempalm, or just can't get damage through because every goblin blocks him on the ground and kills him. He's a conditional draw spell in a format where every deck needs to deal with a 1/1 on turn 1. I disagree with the inclusion of confidant in this deck, even though I may have tried it in the past, simply because it ignores the mantra of red death; tempo, tempo, tempo. Confidant does not help you with tempo and puts cards in your hand (if you're lucky) that become progressively worse as the game goes on. Having an ass of 2+ makes a huge difference.
Confidant is in fact extremely powerful with the right strategy but I don't think his home is here. That's at least my view of it.

[feuerizer]

I'm in agreement with Anwar that Confidant is not a threat and he replaces tempo with card advantage.

Right.

But there is still the problem that an recovering opponent can kill you easily while you sit there and draw crap (in that situation).


Could they be replaced with Confidant?

To me its quite difficult to squeeze Confidant in the deck because every card in the deck is needed.



I think we just have to discuss on a basis of facts, therefore I encourage serious testing.

[tylerwylie]

Right.

But there is still the problem that an recovering opponent can kill you easily while you sit there and draw crap (in that situation).



To me its quite difficult to squeeze Confidant in the deck because every card in the deck is needed.



I think we just have to discuss on a basis of facts, therefore I encourage serious testing.

I can't wait to get my hands on some Badlands to play this deck. I think Confidant is more a personal preference then a better or worse card. It can draw you the disruption you need, but what if he was already a piece of disruption? Sure he holds Jitte fine, but I'm not too sure about him, but he's definitely good enough to go in this deck, and if you don't play him there's good reason for that as well.

[feuerizer]

I can't wait to get my hands on some Badlands to play this deck.

It will be pure fun, I promise!

Nothing is better than trampling with a Negator over a red-player.

You ripped his hand, killed his creatures and all he can do is shoot his lonely topdecked bolts at your Negator which never stops being hungry for flesh.

[blackguard90]

I play:

4x gator
4x shade
4x hyppy
3x giant
3x confidant

3x Chain lightning
4x L-bolt
4x duress
4x dark
4x hymn
3x umezawa's jitte

7x fetches
4x badlands
9x swamp

I found this too be very good, more geared towards aggro, but retaining disruption. I found that in several match-ups, sinkholes and wastelands would have helped. The sideboard helps greatly against combo or control, while the main deck is a lot more aggressive than the traditional 8x LD red death.Confidant is good, but most of the time, he gets smoked the turn he comes into play. And jitte is fricking amazing... Active jitte = win against 75% of decks, and with 7 pieces of burn as removal and reach being drawn by confidant, you are much more agressive.

[264505]

Does this deck still need manabase disruption? Sinkholes are rarely seen ,probably cause they run like 20 each, but since combo is on the rise you could run the stuff were debating over in its spot like bob or jitte. Could sinkhloe be the card thats dropped to make room? Maybe moved to the board?

[Nihil Credo]

Sinkholes without Wastelands are nigh-worthless, and vice-versa. However, I still prefer to keep them both in, especially since Urborg alleviates the colorscrew issues. I prefer to get one more turn of beatdown against control before they sweep the board than hope I get to recover from the sweeper on the back of a 2/1.

[feuerizer]

Sinkholes without Wastelands are nigh-worthless, and vice-versa.

Concerning the Sinkholes, I agree with you.

But a well-timed Wasteland can easily buy you a turn in certain situations.

Thus I would keep 3 or 4 Wastelands, just for the luck of pushing a mana screwed opponent over the edge.

[264505]

Heres my list ive been testing with, any suggestions?

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Badlands
5 [UG] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [9E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [OD] Rotting Giant
1 [ON] Wretched Anurid

// Spells
4 [US] Dark Ritual
4 [US] Duress
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [AL] Contagion
SB: 4 [AL] Dystopia

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Heres my list ive been testing with, any suggestions?

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Badlands
5 [UG] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [9E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [OD] Rotting Giant
1 [ON] Wretched Anurid

// Spells
4 [US] Dark Ritual
4 [US] Duress
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [AL] Contagion
SB: 4 [AL] Dystopia




I would probably but the Contagions for something like Meltdown? I have been testing this deck alot recently and I find myself losing to shitty stax decks and wishing I had something to answer their spells. I could be wrong, but I have enjoyed Meltdown in the SB.

[Anarky87]

I've seen people cutting Sinkholes in their lists. How has this been performing for you? My current list is:

4 Bloodstained Mires
3 Polluted Delta
4 Badlands
3 Wastelands
7 Swamps

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Rotting Giant
1 Wretched Anurid

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

I'd like to fit the Jitte into the MD, because it's amazing against other aggro and I hate just losing to a resolved Jitte on the other side. I've liked Sinkhole, especially against control, but with the rise of combo, I'm wondering if it's still neccessary. Of course it could become Cabal Therapy for more discard and would work wonderfully with Duress/Hymn. But I think I'd want some more kick against other aggro that can be found in Jitte.

[264505]

Ive never tested the deck with sinkholes in cause it take an arm and a leg or a person that has them to lend out for me to play it, i figure having bob and jitte is a better use of space, but i could be wrong.

[feuerizer]

Ive never tested the deck with sinkholes

I have liked the Sinkholes ever since.

If you cut the Sinkholes, you will be able to play Jitte.

In my opinion two Jittes are enough because you only want to draw one in a game.
That leaves two open slots.
Right for the testing, welcome Confidant.
Maybe a third one for the single Anurid and thats it.

Summary:
-4 Sinkhole
-1 Anurid
+2 Jitte
+3 Confidant

I am very interested in testing results!

[Anarky87]

Summary:
-4 Sinkhole
-1 Anurid
+2 Jitte
+3 Confidant

I am very interested in testing results!

This is what I was thinking exactly. If you cut Sinkhole, then you could run a creature base like:

4 Shade
4 Specter
4 Negator
3 Giant
3 Confidant

And the rest of the deck looking like:

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ritual
3 Chain Lightning
2 Jitte

I'd be interested in testing those changes as well.

[tylerwylie]

This is what I was thinking exactly. If you cut Sinkhole, then you could run a creature base like:

4 Shade
4 Specter
4 Negator
3 Giant
3 Confidant

And the rest of the deck looking like:

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ritual
3 Chain Lightning
2 Jitte

I'd be interested in testing those changes as well.

How can you play magic without blowing up lands? What does that feel like?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

How can you play magic without blowing up lands? What does that feel like?


It actually feels pretty good. I personally and a huge fan of Sinkhole, but I also see the reasoning in cutting it for BoB and Jitte. It really is a meta-game decision.

[264505]

Does cabal therapy have any place in this deck? In a belcher/TES/SI metagame would it be better in place of chain lightning? It would allow you to keep more hands without ritual as you can still disrupt on turn 1, maybe out of the sideboard?

[Bane of the Living]

Here is my take on Red Death. I finally got everything I needed to sleeve it up.

22 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Badlands
3 Graven Caverns
4 Swamp

15 Killers
4 Negator
4 Shade
3 Blood Knight
4 Spector

23 Spellz
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn
4 Bolt
3 Chain

My biggest change is the addition of Blood Knight. I wanted something that was better against Goblins and Death and Taxes. D&T is a wrecking ball in my meta and other white weenie style decks are seeing some play as well. I wanted a StP proof guy that could tangle with Piledrivers and he's what I came up with. Graven Caverns supports his double red cost and also assures you can play your Hymns and Sinkholes.

My board
3 Engineered Plague
3 Jitte
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle

Magus just seems too good not to play. I dont see much discussing him here.

Tell me what you think. Im new to this deck but I want to get on the bandwagon.

[feuerizer]

Tell me what you think. Im new to this deck but I want to get on the bandwagon.

Its good to see that people choose Red Death. Its great, imo.

Blood Knight is hard to cast with his :r::r: cost.
You want to use "Graven Caverns". I guess you mean "Graven Cairns".
I havent tested this land yet, but the are some cons. It is not a basic land, thus threatend by wastedland and it doesnt produce :b: all alone. This deck needs :b::b: in his opening hand, otherwise you have to mulligan. Because of this problem some players lowered the wasteland count to 3. With 4 Wastelands and 3 Graven Cairns you get in big trouble casting your spells. I think situations may occur in which you cannot cast the Knight.

Test it, but imo there is no place for :r::r: in this deck as the red splash is so small.

[Bane of the Living]

Its good to see that people choose Red Death. Its great, imo.

Blood Knight is hard to cast with his :r::r: cost.
You want to use "Graven Caverns". I guess you mean "Graven Cairns".
I havent tested this land yet, but the are some cons. It is not a basic land, thus threatend by wastedland and it doesnt produce :b: all alone. This deck needs :b::b: in his opening hand, otherwise you have to mulligan. Because of this problem some players lowered the wasteland count to 3. With 4 Wastelands and 3 Graven Cairns you get in big trouble casting your spells. I think situations may occur in which you cannot cast the Knight.

Test it, but imo there is no place for :r::r: in this deck as the red splash is so small.

Saying Wasteland hurts this deck too much seems ironic to me but again I havent played with this deck much yet. Shouldnt it set your opponent back more than you to Waste a land and lose one of their resources? Getting your own Wastelands wasted seems ok since your still trading off and not losing a colored source, getting Badlands hit seems like its not a huge deal since the red splash is so damn small. I realize Im adding a double red maniac to the deck and I rely on my red more but Cairns should obviously help alot. I already played a R/B deck with Wastelands and Ports and never found a problem activating it.

The reason I want a red push so badly, aside from the knight is Magus. My blood knight should obviously just be Black Knight (dont ask why I didnt think that earlier); but Magus just seems so so good. It makes LftL and Crucible matchups with Factory a friggen joke.

[feuerizer]

Saying Wasteland hurts this deck too much seems ironic to me but again I havent played with this deck much yet.

The main problem is that you absolutely need double black in your opening hand.
If you have swamp and wasteland for example, you have to mulligan.
It is the most important thing to know about Red Death.

I have learned it by loosing those games, where I kept hands without double black.


but Magus just seems so so good

I havent tested him yet, because he cannot be played by ritual alone.

[tylerwylie]

Why would you run Blood Knight over Black Knight in this deck though? There just seems to be no logical reasoning behind it.

[AnwarA101]

Why would you run Blood Knight over Black Knight in this deck though? There just seems to be no logical reasoning behind it.



The reason I want a red push so badly, aside from the knight is Magus. My blood knight should obviously just be Black Knight (dont ask why I didnt think that earlier); but Magus just seems so so good. It makes LftL and Crucible matchups with Factory a friggen joke.


He caught his own mistake. There is obviously no reason to pay double red when you can just pay double black. As for Magus, I find him interesting, but he also seems like he could just be a very poor threat especially against something like Goblins where turning their lands into Mountains might be good for them. Perhaps you are right and that he might be a good sideboard card.

[264505]

The deck really needs to run 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmouth cause it makes all your lands produce black mana. Magus is actually a great idea well worth testing. I almost have the stuff to sleeve it up so I'll be joining you soon Bane.

[Bane of the Living]

Ok how about this?

21 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Mire
3 Delta
3 Badlands
1 Urborg
6 Swamp

16 Killers
4 Negator
4 Shade
4 Black Knight
4 Spector

23 Spellz
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn
4 Bolt
3 Chain

Does this look better? I fixed the manabase and swapped the Giant with Black Knights. I really like what he can do with Jitte and I like that Leyline doesnt mess up my creature base now.

My new board..

3 Engineered Plague
3 Jitte
3 Dread of Night
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Leyline

I've got a little bit of everything for my metagame. Magus kicks the shit out of most of the control and land based strategies Im seeing. Dread of Night is a continuation of my anti white crusade. Cheap, easy, effective. If only there was a DoN for red to take care of EtW.

[264505]

You have E-Plague to take care of empty the warrens, after they go off for like 10 gobs turn 1 you go, swamp, ritual, e-plague.

[Nihil Credo]

You have E-Plague to take care of empty the warrens, after they go off for like 10 gobs turn 1 you go, swamp, ritual, e-plague.
Well, obviously.

/sarcasm

But seriously, if you're worried about EtW, it's not like a B/R deck is lacking in choices. The best options are probably the narrow Tremor or the broad Engineered Explosives; after that, you can run stuff like Nausea or Outbreak.

[AnwarA101]

The deck really needs to run 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmouth cause it makes all your lands produce black mana. Magus is actually a great idea well worth testing. I almost have the stuff to sleeve it up so I'll be joining you soon Bane.

Urborg seems like it could help you only in the hands where you draw it and 1 Wasteland hand essentially giving you 2 black sources to help you keep your hand. The main problem with this plan is that Urborg as a 1 of won't really fix those 1 black source hands all that often. What's even worse and probably why I wouldn't play Urborg is that its a Wasteland target for a black source that isn't Badlands. Badlands is an acceptable Wasteland target because it gives you access to another color and not to mention that it can be fetched whenever it is needed. Urborg seems like it might fix your hands once in a blue moon, but it'll also make your both of your black sources (Urborg + Wasteland) into Wasteland targets essentially leaving you with no black sources if they have the Wasteland. You shouldn't fear Wasteland, but you shouldn't make yourself overly vulnerable to it either.

[Cidolfus]

Does this deck not run Jitte because it would then be too low on threats, because it would be too taxing on the manacurve, or a combination of both?

Why do suicide black variants not run 1-3 4-drops? These decks generally have no form of card draw if they're not running confidant so by casting a 4 mana spell mid-game they get the most bang out of the few cards they have. Also, it's common to have many spells of the same mana-cost competing to be cast on the same turn, so if you cast disruption spells from turn 1-3 by turn 4 it'd be more optimal to summon a 4-mana beater than a 3-mana. 4-mana beaters I'm thinking of include: Juzam Djinn, Plague Sliver, and Korlash, Heir to the Blackblade.

Because the deck runs too few land to consistently get out a 4-mana creature turn 4-6?

[AnwarA101]

Does this deck not run Jitte because it would then be too low on threats, because it would be too taxing on the manacurve, or a combination of both?

Why do suicide black variants not run 1-3 4-drops? These decks generally have no form of card draw if they're not running confidant so by casting a 4 mana spell mid-game they get the most bang out of the few cards they have. Also, it's common to have many spells of the same mana-cost competing to be cast on the same turn, so if you cast disruption spells from turn 1-3 by turn 4 it'd be more optimal to summon a 4-mana beater than a 3-mana. 4-mana beaters I'm thinking of include: Juzam Djinn, Plague Sliver, and Korlash, Heir to the Blackblade.

Because the deck runs too few land to consistently get out a 4-mana creature turn 4-6?


I've been playing Jitte in my board for many months now. Other people had suggested it, but I was never convinced of it until I played it in my board. I don't think I would run it maindeck because it ends up being situational against combo and control.

The 4 Drops you suggest aren't really any better than Phyrexian Negator who is a 5/5 with trample for 3 mana instead of 4. Its also the case that hitting 4 mana on time can be difficult and often very slow for deck that really wants to be the aggressor in most matchups.

[feuerizer]

I've been playing Jitte in my board for many months now. Other people had suggested it, but I was never convinced of it until I played it in my board. I don't think I would run it maindeck because it ends up being situational against combo and control.

Yesterday I tested some games against a counter-burn deck.
I boarded:
-3 Chain Lightning
+3 Jitte

Jitte was great! When I was able to resolve it, it was a big boost for me.

Especially with one creature.
The MVP of the match: NEGATOR


The 4 Drops you suggest aren't really any better than Phyrexian Negator who is a 5/5 with trample for 3 mana instead of 4. Its also the case that hitting 4 mana on time can be difficult and often very slow for deck that really wants to be the aggressor in most matchups.


I waited until my opponent was in topdeck mode, then I played him.

At that time I had about 6 or 7 lands in play. My opponent had to use his single burns spells, which he draw. Otherwise Duress or Hymn stole them.

Negator went all the way.
Attaching a Jitte makes him the absolute Übermonster.
9/9 trample :)


They exist to cease.


Btw: In the end it was 5:0 for me.

[Anarky87]

Has anyone tried Magus of the Moon in the SB to hose decks like 43Lands, Landstill, Truffle Shuffle, etc? I've been testing 3 in my SB and they've been working wonders.

4 Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Crypt
1 Darkblast

That's my current board. I replaced the Chain Lightnings MD with the Jitte's in the SB. One thing I used to hate was when I would control the early game, only to have them draw a Jitte and totally shut me down. Jitte has seemed to be amazing MD material so far in my testing and I believe I'll continue to test that change.

[264505]

Im gonna do my best in bumping this thread and throw out some ideas.

With the whole debate over the 2cc 3/3 pretty much solved, what about using a card like Drekavac as a way to dump way late cards and stuff that isnt really useful in particular matchups (like duress in the goblins matchup for example)?

How bout Tombstalker as a BIG beater to seal the games with negs? Obvioulsy he hurts Rotting Giant's chances at survival, but in a version without bob he could be another fast win condition.

Now reviving an old idea, 3 color for goyf. Splasing green for him exposes you a little more to wasteland, but against most decks hes more than big enough of a threat on turn 2 after going fetch, ritual, duress, hymn on turn 1. He comes down as a 4/5 on turn 2.

[Citrus-God]

What is everyone's Sideboard right now? Here's my board...


4 Dystopia
4 Engineered Plague
3 Umeawa's Jitte
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Masticore/Cursed Scroll


Let me say Magus of the Moon is amazing against Threshold. It's IMO, better than Tormod's Crypt and Cabal Therapy. It keeps the opponent from Green so you get more leverage over the red zone, and as well as disrupting the opponent.

Cabal Therapy does get sided in against Vial Goblins, but Therapy wasnt so hot against them anyways. I see board control more important against them. Here's my boarding plan against them...

Out:
4 Duress
4 Sinkhole

In:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Masticore/Cursed Scroll


Against Thresh...

Out:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
1 Wretched Anurid
1 Phyrexian Negator/Hypnotic Specter
1 Hypnotic Specter

In:
4 Dystopia
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte


Jittes are amazing. It makes Goyfs look bad after combat. Geese are easy to fight.... you just trade a giant or something. Negators are awesome, but I want to side at least one out, since Thresh has so many big creatures to sit back and block... it's especially worse with Tarmogoyf being printed, since it can come out early.

[Bane of the Living]

I came in fourth Sunday playing a list that had..

-1 Anurid
-3 Rotting Giant

+1 Swamp
+3 Phyrexian Scuta

I had to add something last minute and couldnt get my hands on much. He was actually extremely key in my wins against Goblins and Madness.

[AnwarA101]

I came in fourth Sunday playing a list that had..

-1 Anurid
-3 Rotting Giant

+1 Swamp
+3 Phyrexian Scuta

I had to add something last minute and couldnt get my hands on much. He was actually extremely key in my wins against Goblins and Madness.

Why did you cut Rotting Giant? You replaced him with a 4cc spell? That seems like it slows the deck down quite a bit. I guess if you get him online he's fine, but isn't he expensive? I know everyone hates Anurid! :frown:

[Bane of the Living]

The only card I didnt own from the deck is the Giants. I had to settle with something super last minute in a pile of maybe Demon Stompy cards. It was him or Priest of Gix. I ritualed them out turn two and I hard cast them also. Not the best card ever but being a 5/5 that didnt sac my board gave me tons of muscle in matchups with 4/4 wurms.

He's tits against goyf as well. Often goyf will be a 4/5 and this deck has issues with that.

[AnwarA101]

The only card I didnt own from the deck is the Giants. I had to settle with something super last minute in a pile of maybe Demon Stompy cards. It was him or Priest of Gix. I ritualed them out turn two and I hard cast them also. Not the best card ever but being a 5/5 that didnt sac my board gave me tons of muscle in matchups with 4/4 wurms.

He's tits against goyf as well. Often goyf will be a 4/5 and this deck has issues with that.

Priest of Gix is pretty bad. I guess Scuta is better though I'm not sure running a 4 mana creature against Threshold is really going to work very well (Daze is a killer!)

[Citrus-God]

Priest of Gix is pretty bad. I guess Scuta is better though I'm not sure running a 4 mana creature against Threshold is really going to work very well (Daze is a killer!)

He could replace Wretched Anurid. He should be tested for that slot. Then again, Plague Sliver would work too.