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Tacosnape
05-01-2007, 01:45 AM
Alright, for purposes of relevance in the Hulk Flash mirror (God help us all), I have a question. Or three.

At what exact point in the game must it be announced that a player intends to "Begin a game" with Gemstone Caverns or Leyline of the Void in play?

(Edited due to a lapse in sanity)

Secondly, if I'm the Nonactive Player (I almost always choose to go second with Hulk Flash unless up against Duress), can I base my decision on whether to start with a Gemstone Caverns in play on whether or not my opponent started with a Leyline of the Void?

Thirdly, what's the conversational procedure for determining whether a player has an intent to do anything along these lines without either player doing so out of turn or gathering information from the other?

Thanks!

Sims
05-01-2007, 02:25 AM
As far as my understanding of the rules go.... Perhaps Akki can clarify:

Point 1- I know Leyline works this way, however I am assuming for Gemstone Cavern... After both players have looked at their hands and found them satisfactory (after all mulligans), but before the first player begins his turn, Each player chooses (in turn order) which leylines to put into play, then they reveal their choices simultaneously and put the cards into play simultaneously. Player going first determines the timestamp order among Leylines that start the game in play.

Point 2- I'm not entirely sure about this. Perhaps if they decided to place Leyline and passed the desicion to you, you could place the card into play. But Akki would need to clarify this further.

Point 3- I know you wouldn't really want to try and give away anything you could be playing, but a simple "hey, pause before you begin your turn, please." would likely work.... if he scoffs at it and tries to continue before you have the ability to play your Leyline or Cavern, call a judge. If you are playing first and after hands are mulled and settled upon, just say "Before I begin my turn, I'm choosing to place Leyline of the Void into play, Do you have any Leylines/Caverns to play?"

Also it strikes me that asking for a pause in the beginning of the game, if on the draw, might actually be polite. Some might misconstrue it as stalling, but it is game procedure of sorts now considering there are cards that come into play on Turn 0, and it allows a player to collect their thoughts before beginning play, regardless of if either player has a cavern or leyline.

cdr
05-01-2007, 02:50 AM
From the Timespiral FAQ:

* After all players have decided not to take any more mulligans, players choose whether to put Guildpact(TM) Leylines and/or Gemstone Caverns into play, starting with the player who will be going first and proceeding in turn order. Each player may choose any number of Leylines and/or Gemstone Caverns. The cards are revealed and put into play at the same time.

Meeee
05-01-2007, 10:59 AM
The cards are revealed and put into play at the same time.

Just for clarification does that mean player 1 reveals and puts into play all his leylines etc, then player 2 does or do they both choose the ones the intend to play and reveal at the same time and put into play?

cdr
05-01-2007, 12:24 PM
It means exactly what it says - it's from the APNAP rule for a hidden zone (103.4). Simultaneous discards work the same, for example.

All players set aside (or even better, write down) what they're putting into play, and then reveal and put into play at the same time.

The active player chooses the order of the timestamps (418.5e).

Nightmare
05-02-2007, 11:26 AM
Related question:

Between games 1&2, or 2&3, you have an opportunity to sideboard. Does this happen before or after the losing player decides to play first or draw first? In other words, could I ask my opponent to choose before we board? Here's the info from the Floor Rules, which doesn't really make it clear:


113. Play-Draw Rule
For the first game of a match, the winner of a coin toss (or other random method) chooses either to play first and skip his or her first draw step or to play second. The winner of the coin toss must state this choice before looking at his or her hand. If the coin toss winner states no choice, it is assumed that he or she is playing first. The player who plays first skips the draw step of his or her first turn. Each turn thereafter follows the standard order set forth in the Magic Comprehensive Rules (see section 101.5a). This is commonly referred to as the play/draw rule.

After each game in a match, the loser of that game (even if the game loss was due to a penalty) decides whether to play first in the next game. If the game was a draw (there was no winner or loser), the player who decided to play or draw for that game chooses for the next game.


114. Pregame Procedure
Before a game begins, players determine who plays first (see section 113). This may be done any time during the pregame procedure before the players look at their hands. (Note that players are not required to decide who plays first before sideboarding.) The following steps must be performed before each game begins:
1. Players may exchange cards in their decks for cards in their sideboards (only after the first game of the match).
2. Players shuffle their decks (see Universal Tournament Rules, section 21). Note that players may stop shuffling to perform additional sideboarding but must then shuffle sufficiently.
3. Players present their decks to their opponents for additional shuffling and cutting.
4. If the opponent has shuffled the player’s deck, that player may make one final cut.
5. Players present their sideboards and put them in a clearly distinguishable place.
6. Each player draws seven cards. Optionally, these cards may be dealt face down on the table.
7. Each player, in turn order, decides whether to mulligan (see section 115).

Once mulligans are resolved, the game can begin.

Prior to the first game in a match, steps 1-7 above may be performed by the players before the official time for that match begins.
This leads me to believe you could choose before boarding, but aren't required. Can I specifically ask "play or draw" before we board?

Also, this regards the useage of sideboard:

122. Sideboard Use
If a player wishes to use a sideboard, it must contain exactly fifteen cards.

Before each game begins, players must present their sideboards and allow their opponents to count the number of cards in their sideboards (face down), if requested. Players may not look at their sideboards during a game (Exception: if a player is resolving a spell or effect that refers to “choosing a card from outside the game,” the player may look at his or her sideboard – see section 103). The sideboard must be clearly identified and separated from all other cards in the play area. The sideboard may not be kept where it could be confused or switched with other cards.

The deck and sideboard must each be returned to their original compositions before the first game of each match. Cards transferred from a player’s deck to his or her sideboard, and vice versa, must be returned before the player begins a new match. If a penalty causes a player to forfeit the first game in a match before that game began, neither player may use cards from his or her sideboard for the second game.

Before the beginning of the second or subsequent game in a match, players may change the composition of their decks by exchanging cards from their decks for cards in their sideboards. Any card exchange between decks and sideboards must be made on a one-for-one basis to ensure that the sideboards remain at exactly fifteen cards. There are no restrictions on the number of cards a player may exchange this way. Players are not required to reveal how many cards he or she is sideboarding.
Can anyone certified confirm my suspicions?

Ewokslayer
05-02-2007, 11:28 AM
I am confused isn't your answer right in the quote

114. Pregame Procedure
Before a game begins, players determine who plays first (see section 113). This may be done any time during the pregame procedure before the players look at their hands. (Note that players are not required to decide who plays first before sideboarding.) The following steps must be performed before each game begins:

Nightmare
05-02-2007, 11:34 AM
Yeah, it is. I noticed it after I started doing all the copying and pasting, and figured I'd just ask anyway. Oh well.

Ewokslayer
05-02-2007, 11:49 AM
We should respond to each other's posts more often.
The level of Hobbes awesomeness increases noticebly.

cdr
05-02-2007, 12:26 PM
Yes, you spotted it - you can decide whether to play/draw at any time before drawing your hand.

You could ask before you sideboard; most people probably aren't aware of the rule and would tell you and then not change their mind.

Keep in mind though that they could tell you one thing before sideboarding, and then change after sideboarding before drawing, so you could "trick" yourself right out.

psly4mne
05-02-2007, 12:45 PM
Keep in mind though that they could tell you one thing before sideboarding, and then change after sideboarding before drawing, so you could "trick" yourself right out.That does not seem to match up with the quoted rules:

Before a game begins, players determine who plays first (see section 113). This may be done any time during the pregame procedure before the players look at their hands. (Note that players are not required to decide who plays first before sideboarding.) You can choose any time before you see your hand (including before boarding), and once you decide, the rules do not mention any opportunity to change your decision.

Tacosnape
05-02-2007, 04:09 PM
I agree with that interpretation. Nothing says a player is not allowed to make this decision before boarding. Therefore if the decision is made, it's made.

It would be cheating, however, to in any way imply to another player that the decision must be made beforehand.

cdr
05-03-2007, 06:12 PM
Unfortunately, psly4mne and tacosnape, that is not correct.

A player can choose at any time because before hands are drawn, and he change his choice at any time before then.

This is because it would be unfair and difficult to lock a player in to the first choice he makes.

Here's a snippet from Scott Marshall, the judge list NetRep:

If you want to believe something your opponent says at a time when he or she doesn't have to declare such, then that's your choice. If your opponent says "I'll play first", you complete your sideboarding based on that statement, and then - after sideboarding, shuffling, presentation, opponent shuffling, but before drawing an opening hand - your opponent says "nah, I think I'd better go ahead and draw first" - that's OK.

It's not cheating to ask your opponent if he's playing or drawing, but it would be to imply that that he has to before sideboarding.

Tacosnape
05-03-2007, 06:17 PM
Wild. This is why we have Akki around. Learn new stuff every day.