Hulk Flash vs. B&R

[Xenocide]

I am just trying to see this decks powerlevel in comparison to other decks/cards power levels, with a focus on the banned cards (and the decks built around them) since they are the most degenerate.

(BTW, I'm not suggesting that cards be removed from the B&R, but rather that by comparison of powerlevels we should be able to determine that Flash should be kept errated or banned.)

Hulk Flash seems just as powerful (if not moreso!) than the decks built around Goblin Recruiter, Oath of Druids, Gush, Land Tax, Hermit Druid, Replinish, Skull Clamp, and probably a few others. Honestly, I don't know since I didn't play (competitively) in the format during most of these decks haydays.

I was really hoping for some community input and some letters to Wizards, although this may not be necessary since the next B&R won't happen untill June 1st, and I am sure by then they will see this deck isn't healthy for the format.

[Pyrokinesis]

Hulk Flash isn't quite broken yet. Without Summoner's Pact and Pact of Negation it loses a lot of consistency. Thankfully those cards won't be legal until after Grand Prix Colombus.

So wait three weeks and then start mail-bombing Wizards. I don't think that even Long.dec was this degenerate.

[Happy Gilmore]

I am just trying to see this decks powerlevel in comparison to other decks/cards power levels, with a focus on the banned cards (and the decks built around them) since they are the most degenerate.

(BTW, I'm not suggesting that cards be removed from the B&R, but rather that by comparison of powerlevels we should be able to determine that Flash should be kept errated or banned.)

Hulk Flash seems just as powerful (if not moreso!) than the decks built around Goblin Recruiter, Oath of Druids, Gush, Land Tax, Hermit Druid, Replinish, Skull Clamp, and probably a few others. Honestly, I don't know since I didn't play (competitively) in the format during most of these decks haydays.

I was really hoping for some community input and some letters to Wizards, although this may not be necessary since the next B&R won't happen untill June 1st, and I am sure by then they will see this deck isn't healthy for the format.

Land Tax was never broken. Skull Clamp was an amazing card and its banning had more to do with the fact that every deck ran it, not so much because it created a degenerate combo.

ok...so here is the really good stuff:

Dragon:
The premere Combo deck of 1.5
this deck had an extremely fast and consistent goldfish. going off turn 1-3 nearly 100% of the time. But it was extremely Fragile. Lets take a look at the hate:

BEB/ Hydroblast
Naturalize/ Disenchant/ Abolish
Wasteland
Stifle
Crypt
Night Soil (look it up)
Ground Seal
Every instant speed GY hate spell
Samurai of the Pale Curtain (although I don't think it was around)
Planar Void
EVERY COUNTERSPELL IN THE GAME

its Brokeness was tempered by the fact that every single deck had hate availiable to it. Also, Dragon did not have access to disruption other than Durress. Although some people thought you could run FoW, which did not work. If you wait till they have no cards in hand (Bazzar nullifies all cards in hand as the chain continues) you can do what ever you want to them, including making them burn for a decent amount of mana.


Goblin Recruiter:

I played old 1.5 and this deck was very consistent turn 3-5, but because it required red and green did not have access to FoW, Daze, Misdirection and counterspells like Flash does. It also could be stoped by Naturalize/shuffle effects. Very good combo deck but not as fast or as consistent. It also costs 5 mana (3 for Foodchain 2 for Recruiter).

Funny enough, I can't remember if Oath was legal in old 1.5 or not. I don't think it was. But at the time there was no LED-> Salvager shenanagans. It would have had to go beatdown in the form of Akroma or something. It could be hated fairly easy and this deck only really got good when Forbiden Orchard was printed. Landstill was everywhere at the time so Oath would have been fairly weak.

Hate: STP, Naturalize effects, bounce spells, you name it...this deck was not all that broken imo.

Gush:
Gush was simply a very very good draw spell, not a combo piece. Unbanning it would make multiple decks better and may not actually be that bad in the metagame. You still have to find a way to play the lands. When it was legal in its last extended season it barely saw play in Tog. Most lists had cut it for one reason or another.

Tinker:

Ok...here we go..

This is actually a card on par if not better than Flash. There are a crazy number of game breaking artifacts and Tinker was just dumb. I remeber extended the year before Tinker was banned and the tournament reports read something like this...

Turn 4:

Player 1 swings with Sundering Titan, taking player 2 to -3 life (Platinum Angel)

Turn 5:
Player 2 taps metal worker/Island -> casts Stroke for 15.

yea....it was a degenerate time in magic.


So in essence there are not all that many Cards that compare to Flash. They are either much worse like Oath, or they are even more broken (Will, Bargain, Tinker, Jar).

[Anarky87]

I'd let it prove itself first in a tournament setting. If it's the Second Coming, like so many whiny bitches are saying it is, then we'll know first hand and can take action from there. I trust very little what people say online, and if it's so bah-roken, take it to the GP and show us all. Otherwise, I'm rather bored with hearing how it bones the format.

Of course..I have been testing the deck for the past 43 hours (because, ya know, life is for losers and such) and I'm literally 75-2 against just about every deck in the format. Sometimes I win turn 0 because my opponents ask, "What are you playing?" and I'm like, "Fucking Hulk Flash!" and they're like, "Fuck it, I quit." The 2 losses came from me feeling sorry for my opponent and just conceding. I mean, I'm not that huge of a dick. :rolleyes:

^^ Those results were true, btw.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'd let it prove itself first in a tournament setting. If it's the Second Coming, like so many whiny bitches are saying it is, then we'll know first hand and can take action from there. I trust very little what people say online, and if it's so bah-roken, take it to the GP and show us all. Otherwise, I'm rather bored with hearing how it bones the format.

Of course..I have been testing the deck for the past 43 hours (because, ya know, life is for losers and such) and I'm literally 75-2 against just about every deck in the format. Sometimes I win turn 0 because my opponents ask, "What are you playing?" and I'm like, "Fucking Hulk Flash!" and they're like, "Fuck it, I quit." The 2 losses came from me feeling sorry for my opponent and just conceding. I mean, I'm not that huge of a dick. :rolleyes:

^^ Those results were true, btw.

I was one of the first ones to tell people to shut the fuck up about Belcher after the B/R separation lists, explaining why the deck wasn't that broken. I very rarely say the sky is falling. Hell, I even liked the change to the new card frames and "Human" as a subtype.

So let me affirm:

The combo is fundamentally unfair and overpowered for the format. If you are not playing HulkFlash, and you are not playing a deck designed to beat HulkSmash, you will not be able to win at the GP. The deck is more powerful than any deck in the old 1.5 was, including Mud with Workshops and Dragon with Bazaars.

[noobslayer]

Hulk Flash isn't quite broken yet. Without Summoner's Pact and Pact of Negation it loses a lot of consistency. Thankfully those cards won't be legal until after Grand Prix Colombus.

Is no body fucking listening to me? This deck is fine right now and a rather large contender in the current metagame without the pacts. The deck came around and negated about a years worth of practicing and deck tuning.

EDIT: Thank you IBA.

[Jak]

I was one of the first ones to tell people to shut the fuck up about Belcher after the B/R separation lists, explaining why the deck wasn't that broken. I very rarely say the sky is falling. Hell, I even liked the change to the new card frames and "Human" as a subtype.

So let me affirm:

The combo is fundamentally unfair and overpowered for the format. If you are not playing HulkFlash, and you are not playing a deck designed to beat HulkSmash, you will not be able to win at the G. The deck is more powerful than any deck in the old 1.5 was, including Mud with Workshops and Dragon with Bazaars.

QFT. The thing that I hate is how all my money is wasted on decks I had built. Now they all suck balls because of one fucking errata. Really makes me wanna quit Legacy because I just don't have the cash to make it or a deck to beat it.

[Volt]

Problem is that any deck you build to beat it (which ain't easy, btw) will lose to a good portion of the field.

This is a fucking disaster. Even worse than the old T2 Affinity days.

[Anarky87]

I was one of the first ones to tell people to shut the fuck up about Belcher after the B/R separation lists, explaining why the deck wasn't that broken. I very rarely say the sky is falling. Hell, I even liked the change to the new card frames and "Human" as a subtype.

So let me affirm:

The combo is fundamentally unfair and overpowered for the format. If you are not playing HulkFlash, and you are not playing a deck designed to beat HulkSmash, you will not be able to win at the GP. The deck is more powerful than any deck in the old 1.5 was, including Mud with Workshops and Dragon with Bazaars.

I'll actually be happy to play against HF people at the GP. That'll make it easier for me to T8.

[kicks_422]

Everyone's been waiting for the GP, playtesting and fine-tuning their decks, spending a lot of effort into preparing for GP Colombus, and now this deck comes along and will probably get more or less half of the T8 spots. Legacy ain't fun with this around.

And everyone thought Goblins was bah-roken just a couple of months ago.

[scrumdogg]

I was one of the first ones to tell people to shut the fuck up about Belcher after the B/R separation lists, explaining why the deck wasn't that broken. I very rarely say the sky is falling. Hell, I even liked the change to the new card frames and "Human" as a subtype.

So let me affirm:

The combo is fundamentally unfair and overpowered for the format. If you are not playing HulkFlash, and you are not playing a deck designed to beat HulkSmash, you will not be able to win at the GP. The deck is more powerful than any deck in the old 1.5 was, including Mud with Workshops and Dragon with Bazaars.

QFT & concision, although I would add that this deck is as bad (in fact worse) for the format than Orchard Oath. Both completely obviated aggro & much of the rest of the format & could run significant counters - but Oath still required at least 2 combat phases to win, this monstrosity requires 1 combat phase.....or less.

As to the point that a dedicated hate deck will be able to compete, I would point out 2 problems. The best hate seems to require creatures which feature white, making Massacre extremely potent (as pointed out by Godzilla), the Kiki option negates much of the hate aimed at the Disciple option (and vice versa) and it is a GP - much of the format will NOT have gotten the memo. So, your hate deck (which might or might not work) also has to take down all the usual suspects, plus this abomination, and all the random creations, rogue all-stars, and tier 2 decks in the hands of specialists (anyone in UW want to face Roland Chang with UG Madness?).

[Pyrokinesis]

Is no body fucking listening to me? This deck is fine right now and a rather large contender in the current metagame without the pacts. The deck came around and negated about a years worth of practicing and deck tuning.




Okay, I goldfished some more, and I was wrong. It's broken already. The lack of Pacts only makes for about a turn of difference.

[etrigan]

As to the point that a dedicated hate deck will be able to compete, I would point out 2 problems.

Three problems.

When you need hate to survive, you know something's warping the format. While there are answers to everything, like Tormod's Crypt to Entomb, you should not be forced to play them. It limits deck buildling choices, and is a serious barrier to accessability of a format. Who wants to play a format where you lose just because you didn't maindeck 4 Tormod's Crypt?

[Dr. Teeth]

Three problems.

When you need hate to survive, you know something's warping the format. While there are answers to everything, like Tormod's Crypt to Entomb, you should not be forced to play them. It limits deck buildling choices, and is a serious barrier to accessability of a format. Who wants to play a format where you lose just because you didn't maindeck 4 Tormod's Crypt?

wait... are we talking about goblin lackey, or flash?

[Sims]

wait... are we talking about goblin lackey, or flash?

Totally different and not quite relevant.

Goblin Lackey forces your deck to not suck. It places constraints on your deck in the sense that you have to be able to either deal with a 1/1 turn 1, or be able to deal with the subsequent horde. Even if Goblin Lackey was not in the format, like some people keep freaking out and insisting, you'd still need to deal with creatures. Goblins, Terrageddon, Zoo, 3/2, 5/3, Thresh, Gro and other various Aggro and Aggro-Control strategies would still be in the format.. but some of them would just be dominated by Thresh, Combo, or (without Goblins setting a faster pace for the format) various slower forms of board control strategies. Lackey is not unhealthy for the format, I actually think Goblins needs to be in this format in order to maintain deck quality.

Now, Flash is completely different in that Goblin Lackey can be dealt with Turn 2 or ignored for a turn or 2 in favor of sweeping the board with Wing Shards, Wrath, Damnation, whatever. Flash cannot. Flash has to be countered, have the stifle and counter backup at the ready, Leyline in play with counters for the Chain of Vapor, or pro-actively having it's hand ripped apart in order to be stopped. Now, when I say Flash I mean the Hulk Flash combo itself, as I'm still on the fence as to if either card would be truly broken without the other. But in any case, the presence of that combo will distort the format much more than making decks not suck.


Goblins wins turn 4, not turn 0-2.

[etrigan]

wait... are we talking about goblin lackey, or flash?

Land, 1cc creature, go.

I count about 380 1cc creatures, across 5 colors, including artifacts. All of which have additional uses besides surviving past turn 2.

How many cards can you name that stop Hulk Flash?

[Dr. Teeth]

Wow, you guys are spaz's. Relax, it was a joke, get over it.

[Sims]

Joke or not, it's a parallel that's being drawn too often between Goblisn and Flash-based decks, and one that is fairly off base.

Thus, as a goblin player from long ago and someone looking to get back into the format, I had to respond to it.

[noobslayer]

In reality this deck is a lot like Thunderbluff, except for the being real part. Lackey was a fart in the wind when compared to the power level of Hulk Flash.

[Bardu]

If we want something done, we need to take action. I emailed Aaron Forsythe and gave him my opinion, here's a link (http://www.wizards.com/company/emailtoauthor.asp?author=Aaron Forsythe).

[Horror Business]

B&R from Dec. 2003:

"Goblin Recruiter's ability to stack an arbitrarily large portion of your deck allows goblin-based combo decks to kill as early as turn 2. That's too fast for a healthy environment and the Recruiter is one of several casualties of our effort to eliminate realistic turn 2 kills from the environment."

"The current crop of reanimator decks are winning the game by turn 2 and they all depend on dumping their entire library into the graveyard with Hermit Druid. The Druid simply does too much, too fast."

"In our effort to make sure games last more than two or three turns, we felt we needed to get rid of Oath of Druids in addition to fast mana and combo enabling cards. Oath of Druids effectively ends the game on turn 2 against almost all creature decks, making it essentially impossible to have a healthy environment as long as this card is legal."

Of course that was Extended so I don't know if that changes the equation, but it's constant talk about turn 2. H/F can theoretically win turn 0. Seems like it should get the axe just based on prior rulings. I think they won't cut it unless it wrecks Columbus though...

[MattH]

Those aren't "rulings," they are just explanations.

[Jak]

Plus they are different formats. Legacy has a ****** card pool, so it should be able to win faster. I just want it banned because the format was so good. It was diverse and anything could win (to an extent). I don't care what people say of how it shook up the format and is good. The format was as close to perfect for me as it was going to get.